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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/317/3474/APorteousB161102.1.mp3
80867f55350bb6d512266a1b71d81dc6
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Title
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Porteous, Bob
Bryson Porteous
B Porteous
Description
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One oral history interview with Bryson "Bob" Porteous (441356 Royal Australian Air Force).
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Porteous, B
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BG: OK, so I’ll introduce us just the way they suggest. Which is, this Interview is, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Bob Porteous and the interviewer, interviewee is myself Barry Green and its taking place at Bob’s home, Meadow Springs Estate in Mandurah. So, first of all Bob, um, you, you’ve signed the agreement?
BP: Yep.
BG: And so the mainly the focus of this is your experience in Bomber Command but if, to set the background, [clock chime] where did you grow up?
BP: Born in Kalgoorlie, grew up in, er, William Street in Perth, Customs House in William Street in Perth. Then, er, my mother divorced the old man because he was infe— infidelity and then she married a Lawrence Povey of Povey’s Furniture Manufacturers and we lived in North Perth. And I did all my schooling in North Perth School, state school, and then Perth Boys’ School and, because the old man was an abusive drunk, I went bush. Did a few things in the, er, bush, came back and he — first thing that Seth [?] asked me what was I doing after a couple of years in the bush? And I said, ‘Oh, I don’t know. I think I’ll go and enlist or something or other on Monday.’ Of course that was on the Thursday and I said, he said to me, ‘What about tomorrow?’ Being a Friday. So, I said, ‘OK.’ And Friday morning I went into the A and A [?] House I think it was then and enlisted, and I was the last person on my course, and we went to England.
BG: What, what year was that?
BP: It was 1942 and, er, luckily he unknowingly gave me a good, good thing, because everyone who enlisted on the Monday they went to Rhodesia to train and then they went up to the desert and they are either still in the desert or they became POWs in France, in Italy. So, his words about when I should enlist actually served a good purpose.
BG: Right. So, what happened from there?
BP: Trained at Cloncar [?]. I have a friend here. He’s in the next room. He’s an ex-padre and we always have fun and games over the fact that he’s a padre and I tell him that I spent more time in chapel than he did. And he wanted to know why. And I said we were billeted in, in a chapel. So I sent three months in a chapel. [laugh]
BG: So, this is when you were training as a navigator?
BP: As a navi— no, I was just training as an airman then and we were then sent to Mount Gambier. That was a navigation school and, er, gave, given the choice of going Point — to other places, Evans Head and all the rest of it, and we had a lot of air cadets fresh, fresh out of school, who all wanted to go to Port Pirie because it was nearer to Perth, but we being a few old heads we said, ‘No. We’ll go to Evans Head.’ So, according to the Air Services and all the rest of it, we, well I, went to Port Pirie and all the other boys went to Evans Head. They went up to the islands and they’re still up there.
BG: So, from there you were — at what stage did you first get into an aircraft?
BP: A trainer or a real one?
BG: Well, the trainer, yep.
BP: The trainer was, oh, about three or four months after I enlisted and we had great fun and games because three of us were training as navigators and we had three, er, navs and a pilot to train in an old Anson and they drew straws as to who was going into the first leg of this triangular course and I lost, and consequently I drew the nav table, and I opened the nav drawer to put my charts in it and found that the chap who had it before had been sick in it [laugh] so consequently the pilot, when we returned, he complained to — and the chap they found out who had been the person who had been sick and he had the job for the next couple of weeks of examining all aircraft every morning before they took off to find out that they were fit, besides his ordinary work. [laugh]
BG: So, how long did you spend there before getting into, er, operations?
BP: It took three, five, six months of actual training before we were graduated as navigators and got a weeks’ leave and then we went to Melbourne and we were billeted in the embassy. Gee, a cold bloody hole that was [laugh] and then came the day we were issued with our, um, woolly flying gear, which was no indication we were going to England but that was no indication in the Services of the gear that they issued you, er, meant that you went there because I have known people being sent to the tropics with their woolly flying gear. Any rate, we were on this boat and we were told we were going to Vancouver because we had some EA air cadets, EATS cadets, who were to be trained in Calgary. So, after twenty-odd days on the ship we pulled into Panama. The next thing we know we go through the canal and we land in Boston. And, er the OC troops on the ship says, ‘We want volunteers to take these air cadets to Calgary.’ So they numbered us all off and he said, ‘Alright, everyone on — with a two in their number is a volunteer.’ So, I had a free trip according to the CPR railways to Calgary with these four hundred-odd cadets. Consequently when I got back to Fort Hamilton in New York all the rest of the chaps who’d travelled on the boat from Melbourne they, had been shipped to England. Unfortunately that ship was torpedoed and they were lost in the North Atlantic. So twenty-two of us had an extra couple of weeks in New York where I was fortunate enough to be billeted with a millionaire. [cough] His name was Mendenhall which was a — not an excuse — was a bit of a blow because the final drome that we had in England was Mildenhall so I had to think to whom I was talking and what about I was talking as to what was the name of the place, whether it was Mendenhall or Mildenhall. [laugh] Any rate, we, er, oh —
BG: So, how did you find New York? How long were you there for?
BP: A couple of weeks. They knew absolutely nothing. They were dead bloody hopeless. My opinion of the Yanks and their learning ability is zero from what they knew. Lofty and I were walking down Fifth Avenue dressed in our RAAF uniforms and a couple of cops pulled us up, thought that we were Austrians [emphasis]. They couldn’t bloody well read.
BG: Yep.
BP: ‘You come from Australia?’ They had said, ‘I thought, oh, that’s a little island in San Francisco Bay?’ Alcatraz. And things like that they were bloody hopeless [emphasis] as far as geography and things like that were concerned and the more I learned about them during the war the, the less I thought about them. [clears throat]
BG: Right, so from New York ship across the —
BP: Ah, as there were only twenty-two of us we were put on the Queen Mary, QM1. We had seventeen thousand Yankees, a regiment of them, on the boat going over and they — everyone had to do a job. So they said, ‘Twenty-two Australians. What on earth will we to do with you?’ So they gave us submarine watch on the bridge. It took — we were two hours on, one hour off. It — where we were billeted down on the boat I was Blue C4. It took twenty minutes to — from there up to the bridge, you spent two hours on bridge watch, then twenty minutes back, which gave you twenty minutes time to go to the toilet and that and you had twenty minutes to come back again so we told the first officer, ‘What’s the use of giving us an hour off to go and do that? We might as well stay up on the bridge.’ So, he agreed the thing. So the first officer and Captain Bisset (he was the captain of the Mary at the time) — so we used to do navigation exercises so I’ve navigated the Queen Mary. [laugh]
BG: Right. You’d more time to think about that.
BP: Yeah. Well, so, er, navigation exercises for five days. The twenty-two of us we navigated the Mary across to Greenock in Scotland.
BG: Right. Go on.
BP: Got, got to Scotland and we were then sent down to, mm, Padgate. That was a PDRC outside Warrington, and of course mum had always told us if you go anywhere do see as much as you can of the place. So, one thing and another, the first thing we did was when we put our gear down and all the rest of it, ‘What’s the time? Let’s go into town.’ We wanted to see town so during every spare moment my friend and I we visited whatever we could. So, over the whole of my tour in England, I visited most of England in one time and another. Any rate, we went to Warrington. We used to go in there and come down to the coffee shop, which was opposite the railway station, have our tea in there. Actually it wasn’t coffee. It was a bun, sticky bun and tea, and so when the train pulled up we hopped, raced across the road and hopped into the train because we didn’t have to pay for it, being servicemen, Australian ex-servicemen, Australian servicemen. Only this happened to be — we did that on the Wednesday and the Thursday. On the Friday we did the same thing only the train happened to be special train going to Manchester. So, the first time I went to Manchester was by mistake. [laugh]
BG: So your first operational unit when you got to the UK —
BP: [cough] It all depends what you call operations because when we were on, um, at Bruntingthorpe we were on Wellingtons at the time and we were given the job of annoying, under Operation Annoy, and annoy the German air flak gunners on the Friesian Islands and all up and down the coast. It was our job to fly up and down just out of range, toss window out the chute and all the rest of it, and annoy the German gunners. So, they didn’t call that operational but we were two crews still hut [?] we flew H-Howard and another crew flew, Bert’s flew M-Mike and we, er, did the first twelve trips alright and came the thirteenth one and we got down to the briefing room and found out that the silly looking operations officer there had made a balls up of the things and we were listed to fly M-Mike and Bert and his boys flew H-Howard. So when we came back after the raid they told us that it was OK to land but beware of the burning plane in the funnels. That was Bert and his crew in our plane. So that was my first experience of Bomber Command and their misdeeds.
BG: So, you, you were up in the, you went up in the wrong plane basically but as it turned out the best plane to be in?
BP: Yes.
BG: And this — what squadron was that?
BP: That was on Heavy Conversion Unit, HCU, before we even got on the squadron so we thought to ourselves if we can do things like that before we got on the squadron what do we do when we get on the squadron and we went to — I was posted — actually, I went to the ablutions hut one morning and had a shower and a shave and all the rest of it and someone stole my navigation watch. So the crew was delayed a couple of days while we faced a court of enquiry as to how and why and where I’d lost my watch. When we got on the squadron we found out that the crew that had taken our place were, um, had been in this particular hall and we were delayed on entering because they were cleaning the, their gear out. They had, er, taken off the previous night and hadn’t come back. So, could have been us.
BG: Yep.
BP: Any rate I was on 622 up at Mildenhall and being a base drome, three other aerodromes around the place, and a couple of [unclear] squadrons on the drome we got the dirty work. Why should they go out to one of the satellite dromes and give their information and all their rest of it to someone else. So, being new chums on the drome we got the, er dirty work of doing things around the place. So as far as operations work my work on operations was very limited and — [cough]
BG: So, getting back to your — this was your first operations and your, your log books. Tell us more about that.
BP: The things that we did with the odd jobs around the place and my six [unclear] for instance, they got us on a special trip. We supposedly flew an admiral and a commodore with their aides. In actual fact was all they wanted was a Lancaster to fly to Gibraltar because the officer, secret service officer down there said, ‘Alright, we’ll do a trip over to Tangier.’ And when we went to Tangier we had a chappie there who was another, er, secret officer, who gave us a tour of the town whilst they left, whilst we had left the plane on the drome, which we were not supposed to do but he, being a wing commander — alright, he says, ‘Leave the plane there and go into town.’ You don’t disobey the wing commander so we did. When we came to take off we found out the plane was heavy. We had flown from England to Gib, taken off and flown into Tangier. By then we should have only had, oh, probably a half a petrol load. But that plane was fully loaded. We found out of course when we landed at Gib we were heavy in the landing and of course you don’t land a heavy Lancaster the same way as you do one that’s half empty, so they had to tell us we had a full load on board, but they didn’t tell us what the load was. Turned out to be seven tons of gold [clears throat] so in actual fact it had been a gold smuggle. They wanted the gold that had accumulated from Africa into Fez and Tangier and then taken to Gibraltar to pay for he lend lease of the British war effort so it’s one of those little things and yet it’s not in my log book. When I have been to Canberra to talk to my old veterans over there I found out that their log books do not agree actually with what they did. One chap has had twenty trips written into his log book that he never did. I mean, he said twenty-five trips, you know, he actually did but he’s listed as forty-five trips. The other twenty-five, where did they come from? The same as my log book. I do not have it to be able to verify it, but I have seen a copy of the records and the records that, that have been obtained from the — Canberra and all the rest of it do not agree with my memory of the log books. So, knowing a few things that have happened during the war and that, the log, the record keeping of the Air Force or Air Ministry and that is up the balls up.
BG: So were you mostly flying as the one crew or was the crew —
BP: We — a chap Quinn and crew, the same crew all the time and, er, luckily we kept it al— always. They were mainly things that, um, other crews around the place — we were very disappointed over the fact that we didn’t do more trips, operations, than the, that the others but we were listed as the “bunnies” round the place doing the odd jobs. So, they put us on things like, um, gardening and Operation Manna, Operation Exodus bringing back ex- ex-POWs from France, from Juvencourt and that and we had the job of Operation Python, bringing back, taking people out to Italy and bringing them back from there. So, shall we say I was not a fully operational man. I did my work with 622 but the thing was after the VE Day they wanted people to fly with Operation — what was it? Out to Australia, out to Okinawa — I can’t think of it.
BG: The, the nuclear thing or —
BP: Yeah. They wanted us to go out to, um, Okina— join up with a crew, not that crew, but to join up with 460 Squadron to go to Okinawa and fly and bomb Japan and — what’s the hell name of that?
BG: Do you mind if I keep going because, you know this will be edited? So, I’m trying to think the name of the place.
BP: I’m trying to think of the name of the thing that we all joined. [clears throat]
BG: As in a —
BP: Well, it’s a well-known thing that all the Australians in England were given the opportunity of joining 460 Squadron to come out here and we trained for a couple of months, low level work, heavy loads and things like that to fly out to Okinawa and bomb Japan.
BG: Right. So this was after —
BP: After VE Day.
BG: After VE day, right.
BP: When VJ Day came along the — we had a Wing Commander Swan. We were being briefed to take off the next morning when the chappie came in with the wireless thing and showed him and said Japan had surrendered. He said [slight laugh] — he threw the message down on the table and he said, ‘I don’t know what you buggers are going to do but I’m going in the mess and get drunk.’ He said, ‘Anyone who wants to go into town go and see the adjutant.’ [laugh] So we all shot through to London for V, VJ Day.
BG: So how long were you in England?
BG: ’45.
BP: ’45. And we got on board this ship, the Orion, SS Orion, which set out to reclaim its record to Australia but had broke down in the Bay of Biscay and unfortunately the, er, one of the insurer’s representatives had found us at Southampton and as we had surplus Sterling money on us got us to insure our kit bags and that and, er, I said OK and I had a couple of pounds so I insured my kitbag. Any rate we went back to Southampton and they sent us on a train up to Millom [?] in Scotland. They reopened an old drome at Millom and instead of sending us on leave as they should have done. So we stayed at Millom for about a fortnight and they promptly found out that we were causing too much damage to their turkey flocks because, being Australian and that, we were very expert of killing sheep and skinning them and also ringing turkey necks so consequently they sent us on leave in London and we finally left England on the Durban Castle and then —
BG: This is after VE Day?
BP: After VJ Day.
BG: After VJ Day.
BP: And it was not until I arrived back in Australia that I learned that my flying kit bag had gone missing for which actually I had insured and got forty pound, yeah, Australia was still in the Sterling bracket, I got forty pounds insurance money for the kit bag, but the thing was I lost my log book.
BG: Ah, right back then.
BP: Yeah. So that’s where it is.
BG: So any, any particular missions that you went on? You’ve mentioned a few. Any others that sort of come to mind?
BP: Actually no because we just did — we dropped people over in France and things like that so we didn’t do actually bombing missions or mine a harbour or two or something like that but the war was nearly over by the time we had so all my actual war experience was on 622 but I still, we still had to fly.
BG: So you were flying over, over enemy territory in Europe?
BP: All the time, yeah. We, even though they had, the Air Force had a lot of planes and crews doing nothing they put on tourist trips where we had to fly people, ground crew and interested parties on the drome, we flew them to places like Normandy and the, um, the bomb sites and things like that, and also up and down the Rhine to see how the bridges that we, that had been bombed and things like that. So, er, I cannot claim to have done very much bombing experience.
BG: So, you said you did some mining, mine laying. What, what was involved in that?
BP: Oh, that was on Hamburg Harbour and, um, one place we did bomb was Hamburg but that was just a mass raid and everything like that because, er, later on the experience that the padre (he is an ex-serviceman padre) and when I told him when I was examining the window and told him, you know, it looks nice and bright this scene of a burning town and told him that it looked like Hamburg and that and he said, we bombed that and he said, ‘Yes. I had a job of clearing it up afterwards.’ They sent him over as a padre in that place so he and I don’t exactly get on well together. [laugh]
BG: Right.
BP: I’m trying to think of that name [beep sound] and I forget what the American, New Zealand squadron was to represent them.
BG: Yep. I’m just trying to get the name. I can’t help you there. I’ll put that in the back and it might pop out a bit later. So did you cop much — had any mechanical problems on your flights?
BP: I don’t know about mechanical problems, the only time we got shot at properly we were on supposedly on a safe [emphasis] trip dropping food to the Dutch. We were to fly in over a racecourse, I think it was this first time, and drop food. Lancasters had all the food up in the bomb bays in the open top coffins. And, er, sometimes the drop bars would come high up and the food would drop and sometimes the whole of the assembly would drop, and you could see a, an incendiary container hit a cow, or something like that and everyone had cow meat for lunch. And when we came back the ground crew they said we were very lucky. They counted we had ninety-seven bullet holes in our plane and luckily underneath the navigator’s seat was one of these incendiary containers that hadn’t fallen off, and in the bottom of it was half a dozen dents from bullets, where the bullets had struck. So the worst raid that we had was supposed to have been the safest because we had four of those. [clock starts chiming] We got shot up the first time. The second time I think we had a couple of bullet holes in the wings but nothing as near as bad as that so, um, that did count as one of our operations.
BG: Right. So how many was in the crew?
BP: Seven.
BG: Do you remember them all? Do you remember names? Do you want to mention names or not?
BP: Oh, Frank Quinn. He got married over there. A chap, Nobby Clarke, was the bomb aimer, and we had Bill Day as the tail gunner, Chick [?] Anderson as mid upper gunner and — I forget the name of the wireless operator. That was one of the things that as, er, Bert and his boys, before he bought it the — I was in the crew, I was in his crew and when they had a pretty good night in the mess his navigator got too, too well liquored up and he cycled across the paddock instead of going down the roadway and went, went over a creek, which was by then was frozen and the ice broke and he went into the water, and he went into the hut and other than getting dry or anything, he went to bed as he was and he got pneumonia and died. So the replacement chap was a friend of the other crew so we changed crews so the crew that had Bert and his crew, which I was originally on, was the crew that bought it. So the new crew was Frank. So, I outlived that one all right. [clears throat]
BG: A cat of nine lives.
BP: And a few more. [laugh] [clears throat]
BG: So, the mechanics of the aircraft. Pretty reliable? You didn’t have too many —
BP: They were very, very good. We lost, um, two motors one night on doing something or other and they gave us — they said they were no good, that they — we’d have to get another plane because they had no engines to fix it up so they sent us to, the duty crew, took us to Lindholme and Lindholme had a, a warehouse and alongside the warehouse had been a hut site for two dozen huts with their concrete floors and the air strip. And so went in and, er, signed for the new aircraft and the chap said, ‘Oh. That one there,’ he says, ‘You can have that one.’ So, okeydoke, and when we took it, when we looked at where we had to go to get to the strip, it was over these concrete bases, and he said — we complained or Frank complained that every time we went over a bump the wings, you know, fluttered and all the rest of it, and he rang up on the radio and said that it was a horrible bloody ride, and the chap said, ‘The wings stayed on,’ he said, ‘That’s part of the test.’ So, okeydoke, so we had a new aircraft we had to take up and test out so, um, apart from that, the loss of two motors things, otherwise things were OK. The only accident that we saw occur was one where we were doing low level flying around two hundred feet in Britain in dusk. That is not recognised as being very healthy and, er, this particular time I, being a pretty good navigator, I was in the lead and the others had to follow. We had our tail plane, er, painted so that they recognised who was the lead navigator. And so I was in front and the rest were following me and the chap at the rear, his, one of his motors caught alight and he said, ‘Bail out.’ And at two hundred feet bailing out at that height it’s a no-no and they couldn’t find out where he landed and it was a week later they found out that he had landed in a farmer’s silage pit, so he drowned in a load of shit.
BG: Not nice.
BP: Not nice. [clears throat]
BG: So, tell us more about the navigation. What, what you had to work with. So, were you good at maths at school is that why you went down that path or —
BP: Actually, I was colour blind and I did, when I was at ITS, I had to go into town once a week or twice a week and that, and see a Dr Rardon [?] and have my eyes tested, and all the other things that he did, and I found out when I got back to navigation school that all our maps were orange not red. So, consequently, being red colour blind didn’t affect me. So all the lines on our radar maps were either black or orange so as you — they were big, not semi-circles, eclipses [emphasis] with the radar stations that were bases in England so you had, er, diverging lines going out over the continent, so you had to do your cross, T-crosses, where they crossed and so it was the further you went from England the worse it got. There was no such thing as accurate map reading. The only thing it was that we had a new invention. They called in H2S. It was a radar dome in the bottom of the aircraft which gave you an excellent view of things like rivers or lakes or, um, coastlines and things like that. The only catch was that the Germans knew when you operated that they could trace the signal so if you turned your H2S on you were liable to be to be shot at. And of course they had just developed the German night fighter with up firing guns so consequently they lost a lot. So they did not like you using H2S too frequently. The only other time that we had trouble, one place we were at, that they had, um, war-time huts. They were ordinary, just about cardboard, you know, hard cardboard and that —
BG: Right.
BP: [cough] And a couple of the chaps had been to the mess this night and they’d come in the rear door and they had left the, er, outside door open because they had a door, you know, a light lock on the two doors at each end and, er, they’d hear this plane buzzing round the place and this silly little chap went down and opened both doors and stood in the door way. ‘What’s going on?’ Of course, the chap came down and shot him. [slight laugh]So, we — there were twenty of us in the hut and we had to claim baggage insurance on the baggage insurance, go down to the warehouse and claim new baggage.
BG: So, in terms of your navigation, did you use D-Beam, inter-directional beacon? Did you track on VHF transmitters or anything like that?
BP: No. Dead reckoning all the way because they were just — you were so, so scarce on navigation aids it was dead reckoning. Unless you were good you’d had it. [clears throat]
BG: So, I mentioned I worked on the Becker navigation which I understand came out of Loran. Did you have any experience with that?
BP: No. We didn’t on that. The Pathfinder Force boys were the ones that got Loran. They wanted, everybody in Pathfinders wanted it, and they were busy making Pathfinder Force a regular thing, so we just did not get it because it wasn’t available.
BG: Right. Right. So, do you want to perhaps describe your, your job from — so prior to the, um, mission you’d be — tell, tell us what you’d be given and the process you’d go through. You’d have some time to plan your course before you went out or what?
BP: We didn’t have much time. They’d take you down to briefing around about 4 o’clock and you’d be given what, where you were going that night and they’d tell you what routes you had too and they would say what the expected winds were. And never rely on the Met men. They were bloody hopeless. They were worse, they were worse than the people we have at present. And they would tell you it would be a nice fine night and of course there’s be 10/10 dense bloody cloud and then you’d have the opposite. So, you know, you’re going to have a bumpy ride tonight and it would be a clear, clear fighter moon night. So you just didn’t know what was going.
BG: So, on the overcast nights, um, your dead reckoning’s pretty challenging I would think?
BP: Yes. Oh, you had to, you had to be on the ball, what you were, and of course the thing was that if it was a clear night you could actually see [emphasis] people. Of course the odd person didn’t switch their lights off and things like that. They were bloody hopeless. You were supposed to go with no navigation lights, nothing, and yet you could see half a dozen lights around the place. You knew, you knew that you were somewhere right because you had someone following you. Whether you were in the wrong place you had half a dozen people in the wrong place.
BG: So the missions that you were on were mostly not bombing missions so you were a lone aircraft. You weren’t part of —
BP: Part of three or four people, planes that went out.
BG: Right, so in most cases there would be, you wouldn’t be a single aircraft going out?
BP: No. Very rarely were we ever single.
BG: So you kept in visual contact with the other aircraft or —
BP: Tried not to. [laugh]
BG: Tried not to. Right.
BP: Because of the reason, the fact of the enemy could see the other aircraft and have a go at him and they could also, also see us so it was a case of beware, get out.
BG: Yep. Did you encounter German fighters much or
BP: No. We were lucky in that regard that we didn’t. We, once we had a few stray shells come. Where from, we hadn’t clue. We were flying, you know, I wouldn’t say it was dense cloud. It was very misty, foggy and things like that a couple of stray bullets came up through the — well, they weren’t bullets. They were blody fifty millimeter shells or something like that. Yeah, they tore holes in the fuselage sort of thing. But uneventful.
BG: Do you want to have your cuppa?
BP: Oh, yeah. You can shut it off for a while.
BG: At the end of the war, did you come back by ship?
BP: Yep. We came back by the Durban Castle. That was the ship that the, after the war, the steward murdered someone, some girl, and pushed her out the port hole.
BG: Life was cheap in those days. [laugh]
BP: Yeah. We had an ENSA party on board and, er, we were coming down the Red Sea. Nice clear night, nice and smooth, the moon was out and things like that, and the ENSA party was on the front deck. They were, um, doing Service songs and Service skits and things like that. The Dominion Monarch pulled up alongside of us. They had the, er, Maori Battalion on board. So there they are, the two ships, within ten yards of each other, doing twenty-odd knots down the Red Sea and the ENSA party having a whale of a time and come midnight [coughing]. You talk too much and you get a tickle in your throat.
BG: Right. [pause] So, do you want to call it quits with that? Have you had enough?
BP: No. I’m just going to finish off there. [pause] So, it was on New Year’s Eve, this New Year’s Eve party, and it came to the end of the party at midnight and there was a hoot on the hooter from both the ships and the Maori battalion gave us the haka. It’s a sound that you, a scene that, I’ll never forget. The two ships, the moonlight and where we were in the Red Sea and the haka being — one of those, one of those things that you would never ever forget. And that’s the thing that war always reminds me of, the finish of the war.
BG: Yep, yep. Then you came back to Perth?
BP: Yes. The old man was still alive. So, I told mum, ‘Alright. He’s alive.’ So I went and joined 37 Squadron, where we used to fly up and down to Japan and, er, we served BCOF in Japan where there was a few points to the Philippines and that and we used to fly up to New Guinea, New Britain, [unclear] round Australia. Even flew politicians around from bloody Canberra to Melbourne or Sydney and back. Don’t ask me about that.
BG: So, how long were you in the Air Force after the war?
BP: Three years. [clears throat] And one of those things, I met a girl. Her husband used to work for the manager. He was where they had a B and B up in Noarlunga and he used to be manager of CSR in Fiji and he had this B and B and they were looking for someone to make up a four for bridge. They used to hold a bridge night each Tuesday night. So they found Norma and her husband had been up in New Guinea during the war. He got killed. So, er, I finally met her. So the four, two of us lived for four years. She suddenly dropped [clears throat] dead one day. She was the second fiancée of mine to die. The first one was by a flying bomb in England. We used to — it’s a funny thing. I was on the, on the squadron and all the rest of it. Bomber squadron. We used to go on leave to Croydon which was the middle of flying bomb alley. Over the road from us on the thirteenth green from us was a flak battery. They used to fire across the roof of the house at the bombs as they came up the Thames valley and Faye and I used to go to the local pub two hundred yards down the road. Been to an English pub?
BG: No.
BP: Smoke, smoke and more bloody smoke and all the rest of it and of course one thing is I don’t smoke. So, I said, ‘Better get out of here. You know, too much smoke and all the rest of it. Come for a walk down the road.’ ‘I want to talk to the girls.’ ‘Talk to the girls, alright.’ So I went down the road and I only got a hundred yards down the road when a flying bomb flattened the pub. So instead of going on leave I went to a burial party.
BG: Bad lot.
BP: One of those things yeah.
BG: So you got back to Western Australia. So, you said you sent the rest of your life in Western Australia?
BP: Yeah. Oh, sent a few years in Sydney. Then, er, mum wanted me to come home and I said I wouldn’t come home until Seth [?] died. Of course he died on the operation table from something or other. So, I managed to get through uni and that ultimo and came over here and I joined the BP refinery and they were wanting people to manage the place so they sent a few of us over to Grangemouth to learn how to run a refinery. You should have heard mum, ‘You’re away for fifteen bloody years and all the rest of it. You come home for a fortnight and you go to London for six months.’ [laugh] She was not amused.
BG: So I guess your engineering experience through the Air Force would have been invaluable in your later life?
BP: [clears throat] Well, I was their emergency controller. By day I did nothing. All, all the time I did nothing but if the siren went and there was an emergency I was in charge of the place. So people had to do what I told them. I didn’t have to know names. All I knew was what people could do, so I said, ‘You do it.’ And of course they couldn’t argue about it because I could tell them what to do.
BG: Yep. So getting back to your time — so you were always RAF crews. They didn’t mix crews up of Air Forces?
BP: Well, we had a Scottish engineer. He was from Glasgow. His family were in, er, Coventry when it got bombed. That was the reason why he was a very good — he joined the Air, he joined the RAF. When we used to go to France on Operation Exodus and other such things, rather than wear the RAF uniform, we used to outfit him with the blue RAAF uniform. We were WOs at the time so we also gave him a WO badge. He was only a sergeant, flight sergeant, in the RAF but he was a WO in the RAAF. [laugh]
BG: Right. So in the week typically how many missions during the —
BP: Two, three but of course during the off times, in the summer time, they used to send all the spare bods out to the farmers to pick peas and dig potatoes and you name it and we were veg— I wouldn’t say we were vegetarians, we were gardeners. [laugh]
BG: Right. So that was part of the job.
BP: Part of the job. I’ve got some photos if you were here long enough to show of me doing things like that.
BP: Recreation. Now, that’s censorable. [laugh] No. I knew Faye but I was a good boy. For recreation we used to go to London. Of course, thing was we used to be paid what? Thirty bob a day then. And we had an odds incidental form, Form 1257. You got paid three pence for a bloody hair cut or three pence a week because you didn’t — a hard living allowance or you didn’t have a batman or things like that, so every three months we used to get this sheet which was about another thirty pound. So, every month we had about forty pound to spend and every third month we had about sixty and so we used to go to London and spend it.
BG: So, it wasn’t a bad life if you survived.
BP: If you survived it was a good life because I used to go to wherever I was. I’ve seen more places in England than a lot of English people purely because they iss— as we were RAAF people we were allowed a rail pass to anywhere in Britain.
BG: Right, right.
BP: The RAF or the English people could only go to their home town. We went to anywhere so go down to the pay clerk and say you were on leave, for your leave warrant, and coupons and that. ‘Where are you going this week?’ We had a map. ‘Oh we’ll go there.’ [laugh] Been over cotton mills and steel works, you name it, and all the rest of it. I’ve been from Plymouth up to Lossiemouth and things like this. We had bags of fun.
BG: Well, it’s been great talking to you Bob and I really appreciate you taking the time.
BP: Well, if you had a couple more days to talk I’d tell you what I really did. [laugh]
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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APorteousB161102
Title
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Interview with Bob Porteous
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
Format
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00:52:20 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Barry Green
Date
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2016-11-02
Description
An account of the resource
Flight Sergeant Bob Porteous grew up in Australia and after spending time in the bush he joined the Royal Australian Air Force. After training and spending time in the United States, he travelled to Scotland on the Queen Mary. He flew operations as a navigator with 622 Squadron from RAF Mildenhall. On one occasion he describes a secret operation to Gibraltar and Tangier on a Lancaster that brought back gold. He also explains his role as navigator and equipment such as H2S.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Great Britain
Morocco
United States
Gibraltar
England--Leicestershire
England--Suffolk
Morocco--Tangier
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
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1942
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
622 Squadron
aircrew
Cook’s tour
entertainment
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Mildenhall
training
Wellington
Window
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1015/11304/PLeedhamHJL1801.2.jpg
fdabc281256a5511e83607203749a467
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1015/11304/ALeedhamHJL181212.1.mp3
eca92a44a63ba05981df7098454718ac
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Leedham, Bob
Herbert John Lewis Leedham
H J L Leedham
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Bob Leedham (b. 1922, 1183577, 160986 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 90 and 57 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-12-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Leedham, HJL
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HB: This is an interview between International Bomber Command Centre volunteer Harry Bartlett with Mr Herbert, Bob, Leedham, who lives at Ashbourne in Warwickshire. He joined the RAF in 1940, but we’ll no doubt will come to that shortly. Bob, if I can just ask you what were you doing on, in the few years before the war?
BL: My family, my father was a skilled carpenter, but on my mother’s side, she had three brothers all of which were very keen engineers and one of which was exceptionally keen and he worked for a local motor company and he was involved in motor bike racing at Donnington, mainly, and it was him that inspired me with a heavy engineering interest, and consequently when I left school, I was educated in Burton on Trent, the dear old brewing place, I finished up there, I was, won a scholarship to be educated at the main system, which was the central system and the grammar school and so on in Burton and I survived that. And on leaving I decided my real choice was to follow my uncles as it were, into the motor trade, which I did. And I was trained fairly quickly as an apprentice in the motor trade and of course when the war started most of them were already on the reserve and they were the first people to be called up. So myself and a couple of my colleagues of my age, and at that time we are talking about an age of seventeen, sixteen to seventeen, I had already passed my driving test and was driving of course and we were left to run the very large garage very quickly after all the others had been called up, and so it was hands on experience with a vengeance. We were left to run the garage and carry on operations and consequently even a relatively short time I had a good engineering background. However, when I got to seventeen and a half, all my mates that I knew and went to school with and so on had all got into the air force, they’d volunteered in some way or other. In fact some of them were actually called up and I knew that sooner or later I would be called up as soon as I got to the age of I think it was eighteen or nineteen and the chances were that I would maybe put in to the Army. Well I had no interest whatsoever of going into the Army. My first choice was always the air force. Unknown to my parents, at seventeen and a half, I went over to the Assembly Rooms in Derby to the recruiting centre and signed up to join, but I had to give my age as eighteen. They probably accepted this with tongue in cheek knowing that I’d lied a little bit about my age. However, I was accepted and instructed to come for a medical a couple of days later. Very amusing and perhaps interesting thing was, that bearing in mind I had been brought up in a relatively conservative sort of area in Burton on Trent as opposed to big cities and so on, so we were living in a relatively closed environment, despite the fact we were all qualified, and highly qualified tradesmen then. So I went over to have the medical. There was about twenty of us lined up. The doctor came in, he says, ‘right, take your shirts off boys, I’m going to check your hearts.’ So he went along, checking everyone, all the way along, and when he got to the end he says, ‘Right, put your shirts on boys,’ then waited a few minutes, said, ‘drop your trousers then.’ I thought ‘drop my trousers!’, bloody hell! I’d never been exposed to anyone in my life before, you know! And I feel that at that moment I changed from being a boy to a man. That’s the way I felt about it, I couldn’t believe, having to drop my trousers and expose myself even to a doctor. That was the sort of background we were brought up in of course, in those days. It’s totally different now of course. So really from then on the next few days I was down at Cardington for the, attestation and so forth and then I was allocated for training. So initially because of my engineering background the RAF at that time were quite short of experienced engineering people, and they’d set up training units and so on but, they were very good from a theory point of view but nothing in the way of hands on. So I was immediately shuffled into training as a fitter 2E. But I wasn’t happy that, I wanted to fly. So it didn’t last long, and I managed to wiggle my way in to ITW at Blackpool, and found myself on a pilot’s course.
HB: ITW?
BL: ITW: Initial Training Wing.
HB: Right.
BL: Which was at Blackpool in those days and that’s where they carried out the tests as to whether you were suitable to fly in an aircrew capacity. So I was accepted to fly an aircrew capacity to be decided specifically by the selection board’s requirements. And the next thing was, at that time the pilot training was being geared up dramatically. The original pilots in the air force at the start of the war and going right up to probably about the end of 1941, were pre-war pilots, mostly people who’d come from quite wealthy backgrounds who could afford to train them as pilots and by the end of 1941, these were the people that the air force had to rely on in the early days. When I look back historically on some of the situations, bombing raids and that sort of thing using obsolete aircraft like Lysanders and stuff like that, it was dreadful really and by the end of ’41 most of these boys had disappeared: they’d either been shot down, been killed, they crashed or were POWs. Result was that there was a colossal demand for fully trained new aircrew. This was done from a pilot’s point of view in Canada, or America, or Southern Rhodesia as it was then, which is now Zimbabwe, of course. Those were the three, main three areas where the pilots would train from about 1941 onwards. And they set up very, very good systems. But there was a difference between Rhodesia trained and particularly American trained. The American instructors were extremely, quite different to us: they were very hard, very dedicated and they set up a system for training pilots, that if you didn’t go solo in twelve hours, you were thrown off the course. You were downgraded to either a navigator or a bomb aimer or anyone else that had any sort of background which would be useful to the air force, in my case an engineering background. And when you consider, you know, people, ex bank managers if you like, and people from a whole variety of trades in civilian life, there they were, shipped over to America to train as pilots and expected to go solo in twelve hours. Just dreadful really. However, that was the way the system worked. It wasn’t quite so severe in Canada, but nevertheless it was similar to the American system but the ones trained in Southern Rhodesia of course, it was very much more realistic, and they didn’t stick to any specific hours to go solo and things like that you see. So the result was when finely trained aircrew of any category then came back to the UK, the usual routine was Initial Training Wing and then on to type training unit and so on and find a way into things like Wellingtons and Hampdens and Lemingtons, er Wellingtons and things like that.
HB: Can I just take you back a little bit Bob? [Cough] excuse me. When you joined up, you started your initial training as a fitter.
BL: Yup.
HB: But you then went for aircrew training.
BL: Yes.
HB: Did you go to train as a flight engineer, or did you go to train as a pilot?
BL: No, I went to train as a pilot initially.
HB: Right. And where did, which you, where did you actually go train as a pilot?
BL: I went to 32 SFTS in Carbery Manitoba, Canada.
HB: Canada, right.
BL: But I didn’t make the twelve hours solo so I was downgraded, the same as three quarters of them. There were very few, at that time anyway, who were competent enough after twelve hours to go solo. So it was a very hard path really. I came back to the UK, together with many others, who’d been diverted then in to training as a navigator or a bomb aimer or a gunner – I’d forgotten that one – and, but in my particular case the fact that I had the engineering background, which they wanted, they downgraded me to co-pilot and flight engineer. So predominantly I was trained as a full flight engineer, despite the fact I was accepted that on aircraft for instance like the Stirling I had to act as co-pilot as well. So I had to take link training and all that. I was never allowed to take off and land, but I was there to relieve the main pilot and to act as co-pilot duties. And that applied pretty well throughout: Stirlings, Lancasters, Halifaxes and so on. So we were always virtually the number two so far as the mechanical operation of the aircraft was concerned. As opposed to the gunners who had their job to do, bomb aimer had his job to do and the navigator. A number of the early bomb aimers of course were also trained as type of navigators but very few of them flew as navigators, they flew mainly as usually as bomb aimer come front gunner. There was always a front turret, gun turret on the Lancs and the Stirlings and Halifaxes, so the bomb aimers were expected to man the front turret and also act as the bomb aimer so far as the targets were concerned. And the navigators of course, they did the actual navigation guidance to the pilots.
HB: So you came back to England and you went to do your flight engineer training for aircrew.
BL: Yes. At St. Athan.
HB: At, St Athan, right. So at the end of that training, where did you sort of stand in the scheme of things?
BL: I was at training, already I’d had my link training as a co-pilot as well, before I went to St Athan, when I left St Athan, fully qualified, the next thing then was to join a crew on either Lancs, Stirlings or Halifaxes. In fact in my particular case I was posted to Stradishall which was a main training base for Stirlings and then the crew of seven were created. There was nothing directed, they put us all in hangar and between ourselves we had to get to know each other and put ourselves together as a seven man crew, which is how it happened. Once that’s established as a crew then your flight training started, which we did at Stradishall of course, on the Stirlings in our particular case.
HB: Where did your, is it all in this hangar, did somebody come to you or did you think oh I like the look of him, I’ll go with him? Or? How did it work? What were the mechanics of it?
BL: It’s a variety really. Our captain, our skipper, was an ex Birmingham policeman and personally, personality was absolutely first class, but he was a strict disciplinarian being ex-police, of course, and so he was highly respected despite the fact he was definitely one of us, but very highly respected. And we got to know him, chatting away and he said well, he says ‘I’ve just come from OTU from Wellingtons,’ he says, ‘I’ve got a navigator and I probably have a bomb aimer.’ He says, ‘I’m looking for a couple of gunners and a flight engineer co-pilot to get the seven man crew together,’ and so from then on it was a question of who you knew and whether you thought they were capable, and see whether they were already in a crew or not that was how we all created seven together. It was done quite amicably, in various reasons, various forms, whether you knew each other or you say well I know old so-and-so, he’s a bloody good navigator, try and get him on our crew, you know, and that sort of thing. So we finished up as a very tight crew and it so happened, subsequently, that when we were doing our ops on the squadron, the camaraderie within the seven man crew was very tight indeed. The result was we found that we had seven first class crew members. Everyone worked together, helped each other and that was the way it went on the Stirlings. Unfortunately the Stirlings of course had a very bad reputation subsequently. The reason for this was because in its early days, [cough] it was built pre-war of course, a long way pre-war, and was a very good four engined heavy bomber when it was produced, extremely good, but unfortunately it came under the influence of the political decisions, the politicians came along and said that aircraft’s got a wingspan of a hundred and sixteen feet! We won’t get it in to the hangars at Cardington, they’re only a hundred feet, you’ll have to take sixteen feet off the wings. So, reluctantly, they put pressure on the manufacturers and the Stirling was modified to have sixteen feet, either, eight feet either side taken off the wings. Not only that by doing that they had to alter the structure quite considerably and raise the undercarriage very high in order to cope with this. Disaster so far as performance’s concerned, the result was the Stirling was always very, very much – what shall I say - the underdog as far as the heavy bombers were concerned. Result was the highest we could ever get to bomb was about twelve thousand feet. The Lancs and the Halifaxes were up above at twenty two thousand and frequently if your time was slightly out we were bombed by their bombs from above us. Frequently happened, there was a lot of aircraft were lost that way. Just one of those things. So really, although at that stage, when you think that the Lanc didn’t come in to service till towards the end of ’42, so in the early days the Stirling was the only heavy bomber and he was restricted in its performance by this political intervention and consequently it had a reputation of being something of a, I won’t use, I want to use the words death traps, but Bomber Harris had his own ideas on this and he was fully aware of it. In fact as ‘43 went on we were doing the Ruhr bombing and then of course Hamburg and then the start of the Berlin offensive which was in the autumn of ’43, and at that stage our losses were running on average seven, eight percent, we had one occasion when our losses were seventeen [emphasis] percent. And it got to the stage where Bomber Harris, he couldn’t stand it any longer, he was at war with a lot of the politicians himself of course by his insistence that Germany had to be bombed in order to minimise their war effort, and consequently it’s on record in one of, I think it was Max Hastings’ book Bomber Command I think he mentioned it in there, the extract of a meeting that Harris had with Churchill in round about October, I think, or maybe November ’43, and he was thumping the table and he said to Churchill, he says, ‘if I send my boys out [thumping] to get lost any longer in these bloody death trips, death traps called Stirlings they’ll call me a murderer.’ He says, ‘what I want is Lancasters, Lancasters and more Lancasters.’ there was a hell of a row went on and Churchill didn’t say a word. But finally he leaned across and said you’ll have your Lancasters. And it was then that the production on Lancasters was even, set up considerably higher than what it was already.
H: So when [cough] -
BL: So really, just interrupting,
HB: No, no.
BL: so going back from our training at Stradishall as a crew were posted to 90 Squadron to a little place called Ridgewell which was in Cambridgeshire, and not terribly well known and we were the first people in. A couple of farms that had been demolished and replaced with an impromptu quickly built runway. There was no, shall we say buildings, which were you might say were suitable for an operational squadron. There was mud everywhere, conditions were foul. They put a series of nissen huts up for us to live in and also for headquarters and the conditions there were not terribly good at all. However, there we were in the spring of ’41, er ’43, expected to use that as a base to operate, operationally against the various targets which were set out. We were at Ridgewell I think for no longer than about three months, four months, something like that and we moved then to a place called, it was West Wickham when we moved there but it was renamed Wratting Common, and consequently conditions there were far better. Again, it wasn’t a wartime, it wasn’t a peacetime airfield, but it was a good airfield and conditions there were far better airfield than Ridgewell. I don’t quite know what happened to Ridgewell in the end, whether it survived or not. I shouldn’t think it did: it was foul. But nevertheless we went to Wratting Common and we continued to fly our ops from Wratting Common on 90 Squadron, until, as I say, the autumn when the squadron was destined to change from Stirlings into Lancs and consequently they were moved to just outside Mildenhall at Tuddenham.
HB: How many ops did you actually fly in Stirlings for your tour?
BL: On Stirlings alone I think we did about twenty one I think it was, on the Stirlings, before we went on Lancs. As I say during that particular time conditions using the Stirling were very difficult, to make an understatement. Our losses were constant and it was amazing really, I mean for instance there was a Canadian pilot called Geordie Young. He was the senior pilot on the squadron, he’d got a lot of experience, and they went off on their last trip, their thirtieth trip, and they got blown up over Dusseldorf on their very last trip and that was, had a very, what shall I say effect on morale on the squadron, because they were regarded you know, the top boys on the squadron. One of the problems, in those days throughout Bomber Command, not just 3 Group which was a Stirling Group, but all the other groups as well, is that when Don Bennett set up the 8 Group, Pathfinder Group, he got old Hamish Mahaddie who he took on as his recruitment boss to collect all the very best crews off the different squadrons he could get hold of, to go into Pathfinders, and of course there was a colossal amount of opposition to this from all the squadrons. No squadron commander wants to lose their best crews, and consequently there was a war going on particularly on 5 Group, with Cochrane was the AOC on 5 Group in those days, based at Swinderby and he was very, very strongly opposed to it. There was open warfare going on the whole time, and despite the fact that 5 Group at that time of course, was the elite group which contained all the 617 boys and various other specialist crews for specialist bombing trips and he obviously didn’t want to lose any of those. And consequently he managed to get some political background particularly from Arthur Harris two of the Pathfinder squadrons in 8 Group would be transferred back to 5 Group. So he eventually had his own Pathfinder boys. Of course then when Gibson set up 617, that was also again from selecting top quality experienced crews. In the early days that was, but before the Dambuster raid, but not so much later on when they were really struggling to get replacement crews from the various crews they’d lost. So really Bomber Harris, Arthur Harris, he was very much supporting the 5 Group people, it was his elite group in Bomber Command and he always gave it sort of first preference on everything. There’s one, a very amusing aspect came at a conference they were having at Swinderby when at the time Princess Margaret was having this affair with Fighter Command Townsend and there was all speculation in the press about whether she’d marry him or whether she’d marry somebody else, and so on, and at this particular meeting, this conference of crews at Swinderby, it was a bit of a hilarious topic and someone was saying, ‘well it’s unknown who she’s going to marry, but it won’t have any effect on us here in 5 Group.’ And somebody stood up and said, ‘well there’s one thing for certain, whoever she marries, it’s bound to be somebody from 5 Group!’ [Laughter]
HB: Yeah. Can I just take you back a little bit Bob.
BL: Yes of course.
HB: I just noticed in some of your notes, I know this is jumping right back, it says you [cough] were posted to Coastal Command, 86 Squadron and flew on Sunderlands.
BL: Yes. That was when I was on 86. We were, we did a detachment down to Gosport actually.
HB: Oh right.
BL: And then to St, St Athan, when the two battleships Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst were at Brest and they were trying to get up the channel to get away and consequently we went down there with 86 Squadron to carry out operations against the two battleships. But for some reason or other, some of the squadron was detached to, in Coastal Command, to a flying boat squadron, which was 10 Squadron based at Mountbatten, at Plymouth. I don’t quite know why this happened, it was only a very short time, but I was one of the people that went on the flying boats for about three months.
HB: So you were there as a co-pilot engineer?
BL: Yes, on the flying boats. And again, bearing in mind our engineering background was what they wanted more than anything because we had to get involved with the maintenance schedules and so on as well. So I only had three months, I didn’t like it at all. Flying boats was not for me, and that was the main reason I thought that there must be a better way that I enjoy so I volunteered while I was there for Bomber Command. That’s where I started into Bomber Command
HB: Right. It’s all right, I was just trying to get the sequence of events into some sort of order.
BL: That was really how the sequence went through. Of course in Bomber Command, very lucky with our crew to survive a tour on 90 Squadron.
HB: What were the operations, you know, you’re flying operations into the Ruhr in the Stirling, and you’ve very clearly explained the shortcomings of the Stirling. What was it, you know, what was, what were your experiences of those, those individual sort of operations?
BL: Well it varied actually. But the Ruhr targets at that time I can remember them vividly. Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Duisburg, Krefeldt, Essen. And Essen was the one everyone hated [emphasis] because at that time that was the home of Daimler Benz, Krups and all the munitions factories, and they had a ring right the way round Essen, three thousand anti aircraft guns and radar controlled searchlights and when you’re flying towards Essen and you looked ahead, you think, ‘Christ you’ve got to get through that to get to the target point,’ and usually at briefing when the curtain was finally pulled back - we were never told what the target was until the very last minute of course - and when the target was pulled back you see Essen area, ‘oh Christ, not Essen,’ you know. However, going from what I say, first five trips Essen, then we went on to Gelsenkirchen, Wuperthal, Mulein, Bochum, Cologne, Munchen Gladbach. Now in my history of 90 Squadron book, there’s various aspects of the work that we did, and there’s a typical battle order printed there as an example. And that was August the 26th I think it was, on Munchen Gladbach and we were on the battle order for that particular night. I think the squadron was putting up something like thirty two aircraft or something that night. There was eight hundred and fifty on the, the full main force. And at that time the procedure on ops on the squadrons was that you didn’t do, as a pilot or co-pilot or anything like that, you didn’t go out with your own crew until you’d done a familiar flight with an experienced crew as a supernumerary and it just so happens that on that battle order I had one under supervision and there was one other crew with another one under supervision. It was on the 31st of August ’43. And these two chaps, I had one of them under supervision, and another crew had the second one. Out of curiosity, in the back of the book there’s seven pages of casualties on the squadron, and when I looked for the names down, both these boys’ names were down on the casualties, one, bear in mind, was on the 22nd of September bear in mind that was just 22nd, twenty two days after we had taken them on the supervision. One of them went on the 22nd, the next night the second went on the 23rd. So they only survived twenty three days on the squadron. And that was typical, absolutely typical. We used to live in a long nissen hut, seven beds each side, two crews in there. Three times we had a new crew come in, and three times we’d wake up after an op the night before, about midday, be woken up by the military police going through the, collecting the bits and pieces, belongings of the other crew who had got the beds on opposite. Three times we had new crews come in and three times we lost them very quickly, in two cases within the first three ops, and consequently we had, as a crew, we had a reputation of being a Jonah crew and nobody would move in with us. [Laughter] But in all seriousness that was the way it happened, you know and we lost some very quickly and didn’t even get to know them. There we were, soldiering on and finally got to the stage as I say, when the Stirlings were taken out of service and deployed on other work, mainly glider towing and things like that. Then the Lancs took over as the Lancaster production of course, got higher and higher.
HB: What do you put down to, I don’t want to use the word success, your ability to have got through those twenty something operations?
BL: A lot of people would say you must have been one of the lucky ones. Yes, to a point. But we had a very good crew; highly [emphasis] dedicated crew to the individual job they had to do and it was, there were various aspects of the operation that needed high concentration and dedication to execute that. I mean our rear gunner, Eddie, he’s still alive now in New Zealand, and he had eyes like a bloody hawk; he could spot these fighters coming in and he would control the operation immediately if he saw a fighter, to the pilot at the front, saying, ‘corkscrew, corkscrew,’ and instead of flying at straight and level from a to b to a target on our particular crew, we would fly perhaps just for a minute or so, then start weaving like that, so that there was no chance of the fighters beaming on to us in, as if we’d been flying straight and level they had a much easier job of coming in to us, and under from mid or something like that, shoot us down. But by weaving like that, was one of the things which we did continually, it was uncomfortable but it was very safe. But apart from the anti aircraft of course, it certainly kept the fighters at bay from us and I mean I think three times we were attacked by fighters and three times we got away from them. Largely due to Eddie in the rear turret. Who shot one of them down actually.
HB: Did he?
BL: Yup, He opened up, he waited till he got it in his sights, and let fly and it blew up in front of him, or behind him should I say. So really that aspect of it is the thoroughness of the type of flying and the operation which was necessary, but on the other hand of course, where anti aircraft was concerned it’s a different story. We, in the Stirling we were in the middle of it, weaving through it and if you had a direct hit or a hit which say damaged the aircraft severely you could say right you were just bloody unlucky like Geordie Young on his thirtieth trip, and that sort of thing, so. The worst night of for Bomber Command for all losses was the Nuremburg flight, you may or may not have heard of this, but it was on the Nuremburg trip when the met people made a complete balls of the forecast. They were forecasting plenty of cloud so that you could fly comfortably in and out of cloud and the fighters couldn’t detect you quite so easily. But on this occasion the weather didn’t turn out as they predicted and consequently it was a full moon clear, crystal clear night and the result was that the main force – there was eight hundred and fifty aircraft on that particular target. This was in the autumn of ’44, I think it was, and that particular night we lost ninety four aircraft on that night, and when you think there were seven men in each aircraft. Work that one out. That was the worst night ever [emphasis] for Bomber Command.
HB: And your crew were on that.
BL: No. We weren’t on that.
HB: You weren’t on that one.
BL: It just so happened that we were on leave at the time so we weren’t on it. But that was, that’s the hard statistics of it.
HB: Because I was interested in the, in the thing you were saying about the Lancasters and the Halifaxes going at twenty two and you know, the Wellingtons, obviously the Wellingtons were at eighteen thousand and the poor old Stirling’s down at twelve.
BL: Yeah.
HB: I mean that must have, that must have influenced your pilot and your crew at that point, when you were on, when you were on the bigger raids.
BL: Well, yes, to a point, but you had to admit it was one of those things. I don’t think, it was only when we got to grips with the Stirling and training and so on and realised what effect the modifications had had on the performance of the aircraft. It was not easy to get off the ground with a full load on. For one thing the inertia of the engines meant that it was, always had this sort of pull to starboard, to the right, which you had to maintain correction on, and not only that but the fact that the undercarriage had been raised quite considerably, very high up. There’s a picture here will show: that was our aircraft and the one that saw us all the way through our tour, and it was so high up it that when this sort of inertia from the engines, it was very difficult to keep it straight down the runway. In fact there was numerous occasions when the aircraft just couldn’t control it with a full bomb load on and it crashed or something and numerous messy situations like that developed. But this is why as I say, I meant occasionally that when I went from Stirlings up into 5 Group, I was posted up to the elite group. How that happened was, that at that time the Lancs were coming on stream and 5 Group at Swinderby was the training base for the Lancs, but again they needed them on the squadron so rapidly that they were pushing the crews through probably too fast, not quite enough training. And the result was that a lot of the crews had been trained on the twin engined Wellingtons and stuff like that, which didn’t give them any [emphasis] experience on four engined stuff. So in the, when we finished a tour on Stirlings, it was decided then by the powers that be as it were – Harris and co – they’d put a few Stirlings up to be based at Swinderby to get, be engaged on the Lancaster training programme so that we could give them experience on another four engine aircraft which was more difficult to handle than what a Lancaster was, and consequently I was one of the eight crews that were, instructors that went up there and that’s how I got in to 5 Group, posted up there on the Stirlings. And I always remember when we got up there about 7 or 8 o’clock in the evening. So we parked the aircraft went over to the officers mess, went in the bar straight away for a drink of course, and we were standing there and there was another group of the instructors and so on and amongst them was Dave Shannon and Mickey Martin – ex 617 – and quite a number of others who’d survived and they were curious as to who we were. And finally old Dave Shannon, who was a big Australian as you probably know from 617, came across and said, ‘who are you blokes then and what are you doing here?’ ‘Oh we’ve brought some Stirlings up to give you some help in the training programmes here.’ ‘Stirlings!’ he says,’ bloody hell!’ He said, ‘have you done a tour on Stirlings?’ I said, ‘yes’. He rubbed his hand over here, says, ‘Well where are your VCs then boys?’ [Laughter] And that was their attitude towards us.
HB: Yes. That tells the tale.
BL: But there again, life’s about winners and losers isn’t it, you know. And what we had we had went out to do the best you can, and as I say, it’s sad really that our losses were consistently high.
HB: So when you’d done, you did, you know, when was you last operation that you did with the Stirling? Can you remember?
L: It was on, I think it was either Hannover or Stuttgart, it was not the Ruhr, north of the Ruhr, but that was my, our last op. We did two Berlins on the Stirling, surprisingly, and relatively quiet trips too, long trips but relatively quiet, for us anyway.
HB: What was your feeling on, you know, you’re going to do your thirtieth or your last tour on the Stirling? What was going through your mind then?
BL: I don’t really think there was any feeling about it. I mean on our crew there wasn’t any suggestion of any feeling of stress or concern or the fact that you might be, the crew expression was – you might get the chop. No, we were a very good competent crew. We operated very correctly and safely as far as we could and I think that had a, that was the predominant factor in the crew. I mean a lot of people today often say to me well what about all the stress and everything? I said well the simple answer was we couldn’t even spell the word. You know, I mean the stress wasn’t there, it was concern. Admittedly we had one occasion when our mid upper gunner, Mick, suddenly went down with something, tonsilitis or something and he couldn’t, he had to go sick and consequently they stopped him flying that night and we were doing an op that night, on, I’ve forgotten where it was now, somewhere in the Ruhr, so we had to have a mid upper gunner, spare mid upper gunner who apparently for some reason or other he’d lost the rest of his crew, he’d done no ops at all, but he was spare, so they said oh you’re joining Cawley’s crew tonight because the gunner’s gone sick so he came to us and was a dreadful situation. He was absolutely petrified of the thought of going on ops, and halfway towards, over the Dutch coast on the way to the target, he suddenly started firing off indiscriminately at what he thought were fighters but they were clouds. And of course it immediately was bloody dangerous because if fighters around they see tracer bullets going out they home in on us. And Charlie was absolutely crackers, he went mad. What the hell’s going on? Go back and have a look!’ And this bloke was sitting in his turret there, absolutely terrified and it happened again, at a very dangerous point, he suddenly started firing off. Anyway when we, we survived the op, we got back and we landed, the crew bus was there to take us back to the base for intelligence and debriefing and he never said a word, wouldn’t speak, he wouldn’t get on the bus, he walked back and of course when he was interviewed by the Station Commander he said, ‘what’s the problem?’ The medical people there saw the condition of him and the RAF had a very cruel aspect of dealing with situations like that. They immediately used to braid you, used to name you as Lack of Moral Fibre which was dreadful really. You were immediately stripped of your rank back to basic and sent off to a unit which was down at Brighton to deal with these people who were so called Lack of Moral Fibre and that went on your records throughout your, a very cruel way of looking at it really. But that happened to us on this particular flight and as I say amazing really, the bloke was just absolutely petrified. Couldn’t face up to what he was asked to do, despite the fact he’d gone through training and managed to survive to train to become a qualified gunner, but there we are. Just one of those things.
HB: What did you do when you got back from your last op?
BL: [Laughter] Well I normally drink a gin and tonic but I think I had something a bit stronger than that that night! No. we had a, all went down to the pub locally and had a nice evening and then we knew the next day we’d be posted out, we’d all be posted to different directions and it was a question then where everybody went. It just so happened that in my particular case I was posted, for a very short time, to a place called Wilfort Sludge which is on the A1, but from there of course this deal came up to send some Stirlings up to 5 Group, so I was then posted out of 3 Group into 5 Group. And previous to that I’d, before I finished my tour I’d been recommended for a commission so my commission had come through so I was, and that came through six months late, so I went straight in as a commissioned Flying Officer then and went to Swinderby then as an instructor and it was, the rest of the crew: Johnnie went up to, he was the captain, he went up to near High Ercall, which is up near, in Shropshire somewhere, near Whitchurch to start training Stirling crews up there to tow gliders in anticipation, of course, of the Arnhem offensives and so on, so he went up there on towing gliders. The two rear gunner, the two gears, er gunners, the mid upper gunner and the rear gunner, they were posted to somewhere on special duties. Where they thought they were going on rest they suddenly found they were on ops again, on the special duties, doing, dropping these Resistance guys in France and so on. Harry our wireless operator, the navigator by the way, suddenly when I went to Swinderby I found he was already there and I was sharing a room with him in the mess for a while. Unfortunately, he’s the son of a clergyman in Cornwall, highly religious, he used to spend all his time playing the organ in the local church where we were down the pub having a drink, but he had a heart attack right at the end of the war and died straight away. The bomb aimer, little Barry, little short bloke, he went on rest for a short time and then decided he’d go on a second tour, But got shot down on the third trip of his second tour, but he was lucky. He managed to bale out and he was a prisoner of war for about the last six months. But Harry, our wireless op, his previous job in life he was, worked in the Metropolitan Police, on the vice squad and he was absolutely obsessed on flying against the Germans on Bomber Command, absolutely [emphasis] obsessed. His one aim in life was successful bombing Germany and when we were tour expired and they say, sent out as instructors or rested and so on, and what they called screened as they said, screened from operations. He refused point blank he says, ‘No, I’m not going,’ he said, ‘I’m going to carry on.’ There’s a little bit of discussion with the commanding officer about it and the adjutant and so on, but anyway he got his way was posted on to a Special Duties squadron somewhere, and he carried on flying. He did seventy four ops in the end. And in the end he got shot down over Denmark I think, on one these special, highly secret operations on his seventy fourth. If you go back to Lincoln his name is on the, one of the what do they call it, the metal -
HB: The walls.
BL: The walls.
HB: wall 118.
BL: That’s what happened to all of us in the end. And as I say, the two gunners they survived, despite the fact they were amazed to find themselves on this resistance dropping and that sort of thing. So that was where we all finished up.
HB: So you ended up at Swinderby as the instructor on, you know, giving people experience on four engines.
BL: Yes. So, when I went to Swinderby I was instructing on Stirlings and Lancasters at the same time.
HB: Right. So how did you, how would you relate to the engineering side of the ground crew?
BL: Well, very closely indeed, in fact the whole crew did. I mean our ground crew was our survival in many respects and we respected them, we had a very good ground crew. They kept our aircraft serviceable against unprecedented odds at times. I mean there’s numerous occasions we’d come back with shrapnel holes down the fuselage and that sort of thing, and there was one occasion when there was, we had a near hit, this was Dusseldorf again funny enough, the intelligence people used to say well when the anti aircraft batteries are shooting at you, if you can’t hear on, if you can’t hear any noise you know you’re safe, but if you hear a bang you’ll know it’s very close. We heard this bloody great bang over Dusseldorf and that was very close and it finished up with Norm Minchin, the mid upper turret, with the perspex turret round his head, a piece of shrapnel came up and cut right through the back of the perspex and cut the back of his turret off, and he didn’t know it! Without touching him at all! It just cut through this Perspex and the back, and after we had left the target we were flying back home and he came on the intercom and said, ‘Christ it’s bloody cold up here, have you got some heating on?’ Didn’t even know it had happened! Of course when we got back to base not only that but there was a hole in the side of the aircraft you could damn near crawl through. So the maintenance people had a pretty big job, you know, to patch up all the holes on it. And that sort of thing, but the, yeah, the ground crew were very much part of the team, very important and we had a very good ground crew, very good.
HB: And when you got to Swinderby, you would, you would continue that relationship as you do in the training of the crews.
BL: Well not with the ground crew, not at Swinderby.
HB: Right.
BL: No, I mean we were, at Swinderby all we were concerned with was training the new crews coming through, and the ground crew was general ground crew, not to with, nothing to do with individual aircraft whereas on the squadron each aircraft had its own maintenance crew and its own flight crew and that was our particular aircraft which took us all the way through.
HB: Ah right, yeah.
BL: That finished up by the way, when we handed that over to another crew, actually I read historically in one of the books somewhere it was listed, I forget where the, I think it was the Bomber Command Diaries, every aircraft that was lost they gave indications where they were lost and where they were found and so on and our particular aircraft, the other crew that had it and it finished up in the Zuider Zee!
HB: Oh right.
BL: It was recovered eventually, by the Dutch people, who were, the Dutch people were doing the archive details and so on and there was actually some photographs of it being pulled out of the sea, they’re printed in the Daily Mail I think it was actually, so I couldn’t believe it when I saw this, when I saw the number on the side BF524, that was its serial number. WPNN and it was just being pulled out the water and you could just see the name, the number BF524 on the side of it. Couldn’t believe it. Recovered it and there’s a bloke, a very elderly gentleman, he’s a semi historian based at Alconbury and he’s very much a Stirling enthusiast and he’s got a workshop there full of all the bits and pieces of crashed Stirlings and so on and he works hand in glove with the, his counterparts in Holland and one of the major museums in Holland loan him parts of aircraft which he’s, he’s rebuilt a complete cockpit of a Stirling.
HB: Has he!
BL: At this. Yes, Andrew found this out and took me over there and we had a morning with him. I was intrigued and he’s got this bloody old shed there, old hangar I think it is, a small hangar, packed with all these bits and pieces of a Stirling and in the middle he’s got a cockpit he’s already built. And when we went over there he was sorting out an undercarriage and he was showing us that the Dutch archive people were loaning him stuff out of their museum which he photographed and copied and so on and sent it back to them. He said he had a very good rapport with them. Very interesting this guy. I can’t remember his name. Andrew knows it, but it was at Alconbury where he is based.
HB: Well I think, what we might do, Bob, is we might just have a break now because I’ve just gone to check the battery and we’ve now been talking for over an hour! So if we have a quick five minute break. I’m going to have to change the batteries anyway. So we’ll just stop the interview for the time being.
BL: Yeah. Okay, fine.
HB: Well we’ve had a comfort break and we’re just going to, we’ve had a battery change. So we’re just going to resume the interview -
BL: Oh these bloody things! I hate these!
HB: Just having a problem with a hearing aid battery at the moment. [Whistling]
BL: That’s better.
HB: So we should be go, on the run now. So we’re all settled now for our second part of our interview.
BL: Yes. What I was going to say was, when we were talking about the losses on the Stirlings, the turning point I think, was when it was decided, when Goebbels was boasting that the German fighters and defences were quite adequate against the RAF Bomber Command, he made statements saying that they’ll never touch Berlin or our second biggest city, Hamburg, they’re quite safe with our defences and so on, they’ll never touch them. And that was the challenge which Bomber Harris took up, and decided in conjunction with the naval people, who were very concerned because all these u-boats and subs were based at Hamburg and they were going out into the Atlantic to pick off the convoys and so on, and naval people said we’ve got to get rid of these u-boat pens at Hamburg. So Bomber Harris decided we’d obliterate Hamburg; it’s in July ’43. And at that time, as I was saying, particularly on the Stirlings, our losses were very high indeed and morale was very low and they introduced for the first time this metal foil thing called window. That was these patches of metal things which we discharged through the flare hatch at the back of the aircraft every twenty seconds I think it was, or every thirty seconds, something like that, and these packs, when they went out into the slipstream, developed into a big screen of metallic which completely killed the German radar defences and those, radar, the German defences were based, anti aircraft, were based on the radar picking up the aircraft or picking up the target with a blue, bright blue light, searchlight and once it picked you up, it then brought all the other normal searchlights into a cone and you were in the middle of it, and once you were coned like that, it was curtains it just picked you off then because they had you, and the whole secret of their success was this radar control and when we used this window for the first time it killed their radar. The result was, the first time it was used on Hamburg, it could have been used very early in 1943 but the politicians and defence people were so concerned they thought that if we use it early the Germans will follow this, copy it, and use it against us. So they were very reluctant, but it was only that when our losses got so high they had to introduce it. And our losses immediately on Hamburg dropped to one percent: fantastic! I we went to Hamburg, we did the four nights out of six: I did all four of ‘em. The fourth one was a disaster in that the first three were completely successful and I can remember it now, looking down, a whole wave of fire throughout, it just wiped this whole place out, just like that. The fourth night we went of course the met people again, they were predicting storms, but nothing like as severe as we found. The result was I think of, the storms were so bad, we were struck by lightning and St Elmo’s fire which is on the windscreen, and goes down the fuselage, all the compasses were knocked out and our radar and Gee box was knocked out. We hadn’t the faintest idea how we were, how to navigate back again and I think out of seven or eight hundred aircraft there’s only about twelve or fourteen actually reached the target. All the others had turned back because of the weather, and we were icing up very heavily and on the Stirlings the oil coolers were slung underneath the engines and you know what happens to diesel vehicles in cold weather, the fuel starts waxing and clogs up the carburettors, and the engines stop and that’s exactly what used to happen to us. These coolers which start icing in the middle, and what we call coring, and you had to keep hot air flow going through them in order to keep them serviceable. We suddenly found that we’d got two engines with, suffering from this icing and then there was chunks of ice coming off the wings, battering against the side of the fuselage like, dreadful we had to abandon short of the coast. We jettisoned our bombs into the sea and the only way we could navigate back to the UK was star navigation, and Cyril, our navigator, he was particularly good, he could take star shots with his, with his, my blinkin’ names, what my memory’s going.
HB: Sextant.
BL: Sextant, yes, with a sextant. And a combination of that and following the stars he managed to get us going back in the direction of the UK. When we finally hit the coast instead of being, coming over the coast over Essex or somewhere, we were in the north of Scotland, over the Hebrides and that’s where we came in and of course we immediately identified where we were and we were able to fly back down to, in fact we made an emergency landing ‘cause we were running a bit short of fuel, at Wattisham, in Suffolk. That was on the fourth trip, but the first three were so highly successful, we absolutely wiped the place out, and as I say the losses dropped right down to one percent because of using this window. The rise in morale then was just fantastic, you know after that. Of course sooner or later the Germans found that they could, they changed their system and they found that they could nullify this window by using different types of radar and so on, so it didn’t last, obviously, but we were able to use it for some months actually, and it was very good. We’re just having a new kitchen put in at the moment.
HB: Ah right. That explains the banging.
BL: And the other thing about the ops on the Stirling, in ’43 when our losses were so high, when you counted the number of ops you’re doing, the way it was calculated by Group headquarters, it was decided that because when they analysed the losses and how it was happening and so on, they came to a system of doing thirty ops in a tour and the total would depend entirely on the type of ops. For instance when 90 Squadron went to Tuddenham on Lancasters in the end of ’44, or half way through ’44, their main job - they did very, very little main force bombing – but ninety percent of the jobs of their work and I’ve got it all listed in my history book of 90 Squadron, was on either, was mainly on resistance work dropping resistance and equipment for low level intervention into Europe, dropping arms and equipment to the French and the Dutch resistance movements and so on, and consequently this was done individual very low level operations and the result was that the ops compared with ’43 were very easy and the losses were very low and consequently because, and the short ops as well, and because of this to count one trip as an op they had to do four trips to count as one on the tour, and consequently this system which was introduced before we finished, was that because of the severity of a lot of our ops on the Ruhr operation were so incredibly high losses and so very difficult that they allocated that some of the ops, because of their severity, would count, you had to do one op was counted as two on your tour, because of the severity of the operation and the high level of losses. So it wasn’t, it didn’t always follow that you did a straight forward thirty trips, you could have done say twenty five trips but they counted as thirty on your log book and the severity of the targets.
HB: Did you ever do mine-laying, gardening?
LB: Mining? Yes. Gardening as they called it. Yeah. We did two actually. One off Le Creusot and one other, I’ve forgotten what it was now. We did, our particular crew we only did two mining operations, those were, they were easy ones too.
HB: Yeah. So. You got to Swinderby. You’re doing the training there. How did you move forward from there? So that would be 1944.
BL: Well it was the end of, Christmas, yes Christmas time ’43 when I went to Swinderby, and most of ’44 and as I said earlier I was a fully qualified instructor on Lancs and Stirlings then and towards the end of ’44, I think it must have been round about September, October, something like that, some of the Lanc squadrons in 5 Group were having very heavy losses and the analysis of those losses, was in many cases put down to the fact that, to inexperience, training not sufficient for them, because they’d been rushed through very quickly because squadrons, with their losses, need quick replacements and so on. The result was that at East Kirkby 57 Squadron and 630 Squadron were both there at East Kirkby, and 57 particularly although they’d been engaged on very difficult targets their losses were astronomically high and a hell of a lot of them put down to pure inexperience. So myself and Dicky, we were both instructors at Swinderby, we were seconded to 57 Squadron for three months to set up a revised training unit there, which we did, to give the training, give the operational crews quite a bit more familiarisation and training and so on to try and cut these, some of these losses down. So I had that period there. And it was whilst I was at 57 and about to go back to Swinderby, ‘cause I was still on the strength at Swinderby despite the fact I’d been loaned to 57 at East Kirkby to do this training programme, 463 Squadron at Waddington, the Aussie squadron, had been suffering a few losses here and there, and the, one of the leaders of the squadron, the co-pilot and flight engineer leader there had been lost, so I was posted to 463 as his replacement and I was lucky to stay there until the end of the war.
HB: So that was back on to operations.
BL: So, yes, so I went back on to ops. Of course when I was at 463, because I was the boss of A flight, I was the leader, I didn’t have a crew, so I could only put myself on to do ops when there was a, somebody had gone sick or something you see, so I did them with any crew, and by extremely strange coincidence, I said to you about Essen earlier, my very first trip on my second tour here was a low level daylight on Essen. [Laugh] I couldn’t believe it! But I’ll tell you what, it was so bloody easy, it was so different to 1943. But, so I stayed there really, and at the end of the war as I said earlier, I went to Skellingthorpe, just outside Lincoln when Tiger Force was set up. I was posted on to Tiger Force.
HB: And Tiger Force was - ?
BL: That was the equivalent to 617 to go to Japan to do the [cough] vital targets into Japan, very similar to what 617 had been doing, because the adjacent to 617 Squadron was 9 Squadron. They were both based then at Woodhall Spa and Wing Commander Cheshire was the, was one of the commanding officers at 617 at that time, amongst others. But so when I went to 463 as I say, I was there till the end of the war then, and doing ops from there, and because I was the leader there the flight engineer leader on 463, I was posted to Skellingthorpe to join Tiger Force and I was promoted then at Tiger Force to be in charge of that particular section to go to Japan and we were half way through their training when the bomb was dropped of course and it all came to a halt then. Consequently I found myself in civil flying.
HB: Yeah. You did tell me before the interview started, you were, you were made an offer by the RAF before you -
BL: Yes, offered a, I was a substantive flight lieutenant then, and for a very short time I was an acting Squadron Leader but only for four weeks! [Laugh] Because it all ended then. But I was offered a extended seven year flying, extended flying committee, er, commission and given the choice. I didn’t know much about, well I didn’t know anything about civil flying. I didn’t even understand what BOAC meant until I got there.
HB: But you were originally offered Transport Command weren’t you.
BL: Yes.
HB: What was your view on that?
BL: But I turned that down. I turned that down flat. But there’s a very, there’s another, a very ironic twist that I’ll tell you about. So immediately because we were then seconded from the air force to BOAC we had to get civilian licences. We had to get civilian licences and then they decided what they were going to train us on, so we had to go through the basic theory and all that sort of stuff to get civilian licences and we were allocated I think it was about either fifty or a hundred block licence numbers in the very early days. Once we’d done type training on, at that time on Avros produced the very first post-war airliner called the Tudor and the first dozen Tudors were just being built and they were destined to go to BOAC to start up to date pressurised passenger aircraft. They were quite nice aircraft actually, very good. So since we’d just, we were the first people to be trained on the Tudors. So we did our training on the Tudors and when they were just about to start to take, BOAC to take delivery of the Tudors, for some reason there was a political change and instead of coming to BOAC, they went to British South [emphasis] American Airways, and at that time was run by the old 8 Group Pathfinder chief, Air Marshal Don Bennett, who was a real press on type. [Cough] Highly successful with Pathfinders of course and he was the boss at British South American. They’d previously been running some converted Lancasters into what they called Lancastrians before long distance flying in South America and so on, and they hadn’t got a particularly good record they’d lost three or four of them I think, for different reasons and so they took delivery of the Tudors. Tudor 1s these were, Mark 1s. And I did quite a bit of flying with the, on the Tudors on the South American routes, down to Bermuda, and the Caribbean and so on, and I was put in charge of training at BSA as well. And then, as things went on, we got as far as 1948 I think it was, ‘46’ 47’ ’48 I think it was, yes, ’47 ‘48. Suddenly the Berlin Airlift comes up, and from nowhere I suddenly found BSA, because of their Tudors, the air force was already in force on the Berlin Airlift using mainly Dakotas, the old C47s and they couldn’t cope with, couldn’t make it that economical to cope with the heavy loads that was necessary so they asked a lot of the civilian charter companies and so on, if they could provide crews and aircraft to come on to the Berlin airlift to increase the load factors, and British South American got one of the contracts to, with two Tudors, to go on the Berlin Airlift and I was one of them selected to go on the first one. So I found myself flying over to Wunstorf near Hannover where we were based, to fly on the Berlin Airlift these two Tudors between Wunstorf and Gatow, Berlin. And ironically, I think, when I think that three years before, when I did my last operational trip with 463, there we were still bombing and knocking hell out of ‘em; three years later, there I was at Wunstorf flying into Berlin to try and keep the so-and-so’s alive. Ironic really, they were three years the difference. Anyway, I stayed at Wunstorf for nearly a year, I think it was. I did nearly three hundred flights between Wunstorf and, there were only three of us on board.
HB: What sort of things were you taking in?
BL: Well when I first flew out there, we were taking huge packs of canned meat and stuff like spam and all that sort of stuff, corned beef, and all that, which was fairly easy to handle, in big cases and so on. And then the RAF were getting a bit uppity about what they were going to do and what they were carrying and bear in mind that the US air force was also on the operation with their C54s and Skymasters and so on, they were based at Schleswigland I think it is. I’ve got maps showing all the different air bases that we used over there but we always used Wunstorf and because we were larger aircraft, they decided that instead of carrying packs of food and so on, we suddenly found ourselves carrying coal, huge packs of coal, great big sealed bags of coal, about a hundredweight apiece. So we spent some months then, this coal at Berlin. Landing at Berlin was quite something. It was the ground force of people doing all the unloading and so on was predominantly very elderly German ladies, old grandmothers and mothers and so on, and it was sad to see them. They were dressed, whatever they could find to wear, and they used to come on board. They did all the work of loading and unloading, all the heavy work and they used to come on board to us carrying these lovely family heirlooms like Leica cameras and stuff like that to exchange. They were desperate for two things: cigarettes and coffee, and you could get anything for a couple of packs of coffee, in fact I got a lovely Leica camera in exchange for two bags of coffee at one stage. They used to come up, had it all laid out on the nav table there when they were unloading and they’d bring these heirlooms up and do deals with us. Anything we could, anything they wanted we could give it to them, you know. Children we gave cigret – we gave sweets and chocolate to the children. The children loved it. The Americans set up, at one stage, when they flew into Gatow, over the Frohnau beacon flying on to finals for landing, all the children used to sit round the lake underneath waving to the Americans going over and the Yanks were throwing out chocolate and sweets to them. At one stage they set up, got large handkerchiefs which they tied up sort of like a parachute, and tied these bags of sweets to them, were throwing them out and in dropping them out and the kids loved it. Absolutely fantastic.
HB: Amazing.
BL: But anyway, as I say, another aspect came up then, some time after been carrying the coal, which was a very dirty operation, dust and everything in the aircraft and they suddenly decided that what they wanted desperately in Berlin was medicinal, what do you call it? Two things they were short of, one was straight run gasoline and the other one was, oh dear me, some large amount of some sort of medicinal fluids. I’ve forgotten what they were now, what they were called. But these were in great big packs but the hospitals were desperate for them. So when it was decided that they’d fly the stuff in, it meant that the aircraft that were going to do this had to be modified with huge tanks in the back to carry it. And the air force said point blank they wouldn’t do it, they refused absolutely point blank to carry straight run gasoline in bloody great tanks down the back of the aircraft, they said its far too dangerous, so they refused point blank to do it. So the civilian contracts were asked to do it and we had then replaced our two Mark 1 Tudors with two Mark 5s which had been built and never been put into service but they were much larger and so our two Mark 5s were then equipped with these bloody great tanks for straight run gasoline and this medical stuff and so for the last few months we were flying that into Berlin.
BH: How did you feel about that?
BL: Oh dear me. Well it was just a bloody big laugh I thought, we thought. Bear in mind we’ve still got this enthusiasm from Bomber Command which we’d brought from the air force to the civilian and it was such a big change, you know, but to us it was more of a bloody big laugh than anything else. But anyway, we settled down to it and it was a good operation, it worked extremely well. When you are turning on to final approach into Gatow, Berlin, you came in over the lake on the outskirts of the city and the final beacon was at a place called Frohnau, Frohnau Beacon, you had to call over the beacon which was virtually the outer marker for final approach and the timing was so accurately it had to be done. The timing of aircraft over Frohnau was every twenty seconds between aircraft.
HB: Blimey.
BL: When you think there was a variety of aircraft, everything from small Bristol freighters to Dakotas and converted Lancs and Halifaxes and anything the charter people could lay their bloody hands on. They buy them for peanuts and take them out there to take part because the airlift they pay very big money and we were no exception with our Tudors and it’s an amazing operation really.
HB: So you went through the Berlin Airlift. Just one thing just I’m just quite curious about. You started off I think, on particular kinds of aircraft as a fitter.
BL: Yeah.
HB: What was, what was the system for re-training you when you went to different engines and different engine management systems?
BL: Well there were various training stations set up. I think the initial one for fitter 2Es, or 2As, that’s the difference between fitter rigger and fitter engines was at Kirkham, Lancashire and that was the number one training base, apart from Halton of course which is still there and still doing it today! And Halton of course was always the base of the so called Halton Brats as they call them. They go there as small, young apprentices and three year training straight away and they’re still doing that today. Yeah, they’re still churning out young lads from Halton.
HB: Right. So when you were working with the Stirling –
BL: Yeah.
HB: And then you go on Lancasters, obviously you’ve got Merlin engines, you’ve got Hercules engines, you’ve got all sorts, you’ve got air cooled, liquid cooled. You’ve got all these different engines.
BL: Yes.
HB: So was there an element of self training or was it all formalised?
BL: Well it was to us, to a point where we were fully trained and fully experienced with a lot of hours in on Stirlings when we went up to Swinderby, the 5 Group elite Group., but we hadn’t been trained on Lancs. So we had, it was virtually self-training on the Lancs there by virtue of working on them and flying on them and training every day. So that part of it, yes, was to a large extent I think we did, there were short courses laid on for us. I did one at Cosford for instance, and places like that, but generally speaking more than anything you were self taught, and as instructors you were expected to be experienced and knowledgeable on all the different aspects, so that was how it worked. But go back to the Berlin Airlift though, when that finished, I came back, by that time British South American, there was a lot of demands because they had a very poor safety record. We lost Star Tiger and we lost Star Ariel, both in the Caribbean. Those were Tudor 1s, from the first Tudors that we trained on. The first one was lost over the Bermuda Triangle as they call it, up at twenty thousand feet, no idea what happened to him; it just disappeared. And the second one was, had flown out of the Azores which at that time was a very difficult operation, flying over the south Atlantic from the Azores to South America and weather conditions and very poor nav and all rest of it was very prevalent round the Azores; very difficult route to operate.
HB: How many passengers did the Tudor 1 carry then?
BL: It varied, on whether, the Tudor 1s, I’ve just forgotten. I think up to about eighty or ninety passengers, something like that. The Tudor 5s were much larger but they didn’t actually go into passenger service after the Berlin Airlift. I don’t know what happened. They were scrapped I think, in the end. But anyway, as I say, because of the loss of the two Tudors and the BSA had lost quite a few Lancs so Don Bennett was criticised very heavily and finally he was forced to resign. So he was taken over by BSA who was then taken over by one of the old traditional north Atlantic BOAC captains, Gordon Storr his name, and it was Gordon Storr who I was with, on the, we were the first two Tudors at Wunstorf when the Airlift started and then shortly afterwards after Bennett had left, they decided BSA would be would up so what was left of it came back into, it came into BOAC. But that stage I was still being paid as a flight lieutenant substantive from the air force, seconded to BOAC so I was paid by BOAC who in turn seconded me to BSAA so I was paid by three companies, very interesting situation. But then of course, having come back to BOAC then, BOAC were operating Yorks and converted Halifaxes called Haltons, and, oh there was still a few Dakotas being used, but generally they were waiting for the next civil airliner which came from Handley Page called the Hermes and that was a very good aircraft. I liked the Hermes very much. Performance wise it hadn’t quite got good altitude performance as such, but it was a very easy aircraft to fly, very comfortable, it was designed specifically for the comfort of passengers and so on. And it was after then that the Comet 1 came in from De Havillands, the DH106, which was designed and built by DHs and was at least twenty years before its time. And then of course to us anyway, a huge attraction to get on the first jet aircraft into service. So in no time at all I was, I joined the Comet 1 fleet. We were flying, first of all flying down to Johannesburg and then it was extended to the Far East and out to even as far as Tokyo and Hong Kong and so on. Then of course you know the story that Xray Kilo blew up over Elba on its way between Rome and London. They were immediately grounded, no one could understand why it had, how it had happened. There was a huge inquiry and after ninety-odd modifications they decided that one of them must have been the reason so they put it back into service. And in no time at all they lost a second one which blew up over Naples Bay. That was flown by a South African crew who were on loan to BOAC. We’d also got French crews flying them, and it, so it was then decided that because two of them had blown up, they couldn’t leave them into service any longer. Unfortunately a third one went. The third one was out of Calcutta and that had just taken over from Calcutta and was flying through heavy cloud and they put that down to the fact that it flew into a cunim cloud and the stresses were so great the aircraft just broke up. So then they were grounded completely and when Farnborough rigged up the test rig there, and put a whole aircraft on this water test bed, and they found out exactly why it had happened. The general opinion from the public and in aviation generally was that the pressurisation caused the windows to blow out but that wasn’t true at all. The fault arose through bad engineering practice on the design of the hatches in the roof. The hatches which covered the radio communication, adf system and these two hatches were like that square like that. Engineering practice is that if you design something that’s a square and it’s put under pressure, you see that little crack there, where that join is -
HB: Showing me on the photograph frame.
BL: That little crack there.
HB: In the corner. [cough]
BL: If a crack occurs, it will always come from a corner, and find its way across and finally disintegrate and that’s precisely what happened to the Comet. It was bad engineering practice because if you round the corners those cracks wouldn’t occur. Simple [cough]. Again, in fairness to De Havillands, they produced some very fine fighter aircraft, put in their own engine, the Ghost 50 engine in them, Vampires and stuff like that but they had no experience ever of high altitude pressurised aircraft, and so they built them to what they considered would be strong enough and so on. But I’ve got a book upstairs which Andrew’s been reading, of the whole story, the whole official story of the enquiry and the way they found out all the reasons for it at Farnborough. The summing up at the end of it, when they said officially you know, that the initial fault was the adf hatches that disintegrated because of the bad engineering practice, how it was designed. The general feeling was that the aircraft was twenty years before its time but it simply wasn’t strong enough, because De Havillands, or anyone else for that matter, had experience enough to build them strong enough, when you think that at forty two thousand feet the pressurisation equivalent in the cabin was only eight thousand feet. That was the highest the cabin pressure was ever taken up to give passengers comfort without having to go on to oxygen. So the difference between eight thousand and forty two thousand across the structure of the aircraft was eight and a half pounds per square inch which is massive [emphasis] from the outside to the inside, and it has to be extremely strong, the sort of structure, in order to withstand these pressures. So you can imagine that it was not only not built strong enough, but of course the fault occurred on the hatches which caused it to blow up anyway. The first one that went, Xray Kilo, I had flown that on quite a number of occasions, got it in my log book in a number of places prior to it blowing up. I think previously I’d, we operated it from Tokyo to Hong Kong only the day before I think it was, before it blew up at Elba, but that aircraft had only done seventeen hundred hours. The second one that blew up over Naples had done just over two thousand hours and the one that disintegrated at Calcutta had done less than two thousand hours. They were all going at the, virtually the same time. That was another factor that the inquiry of course dug up, when they said that, Tom Butterworth I think it was, that because of lack of experience at DHs on high altitude stuff the aircraft simply wasn’t built strong enough. You’ve got to go back to Con Derry who was the chief test pilot at De Havillands a few years before when he was doing demonstrations at the Farnborough air show in a, I think it was a Vampire, he was doing very, very tight turns demonstrating and on one of those tight turns the bloody wings came off. He crashed into the crowd there and killed a few people, including himself. That was another example that under extreme stress conditions, that DHs aircraft wasn’t strong enough.
HB: Yes.
BL: So all those factors, you know. So result was that going back to the Comet days, I was involved very heavily with the whole Comet story because then it was decided that they’d have to, they’d build the new aircraft much stronger and up to date. The other thing was, by the way, that De Havillands had their own engines, the Ghost 50 which only produced five thousand pounds thrust, which was quite adequate for the fighters, but for a aircraft like the Comet 4 Ghost 50 engines, they insisted on putting their own engines in and all the experts said no, we needed Rolls Royce Merlin engines, or Avon engines they were, but they refused point blank, they said no, its our aircraft, we’ll put our own engines in and they simply weren’t strong enough. We couldn’t even do a safe level cruise at altitude, you had to do a five degree climb the whole time to get to top of descent, largely because by continuing to fly like that you’re reducing your fuel flow and consequently you had adequate fuel to start your descent. It was because of the consumption levels and the lack of real thrust on these DH engines, it was extremely [emphasis] critical on fuel, extremely [emphasis] critical. They devised this method of five degree climb. You had to fly, when you flight plan you fly backwards starting at top of descent instead of top of climb and things like that, you know. So anyway, when it was decided then they’d build the new Comet 4 much stronger and it would have Rolls Royce engines of much higher quality and it had Rolls Royce Conway engines. So, they’d, after the 1s, they built some Comet 2s, which were destined to go to the air force. But of course after the crashes they never even got airborne, never even delivered, they were just stuck there at Hatfield. So they decided that they’d have to carry out a two year test flying programme to make sure that everything that was being put into the Comet 4 had been well proved, correctly and properly using these two Mark 2s which were used as test beds. So they modified these two Mark 2s, strengthened them up and made sure they were adequate to do the work. They put the standard Conway engines on the inboards and then the new big 524 engines on the outboards which were destined to go into the new Comet 4. So they hadn’t got any crews to fly these at De Havilland, so they asked BOAC if BOAC could loan them I think it was six, was six crews to fly a two year test flying for De Havillands on these Comet 2s, 2Es as they called them. So I was one that went on to those, on to test flying. The first year we, every day we flew non-stop to Beirut from London and back, every day for a year. The aircraft hadn’t got a certificate of airworthiness, of course it was experimental, so there was only three of us allowed on board, no one, none of the boffins were allowed on so they got all the, all the usual test equipment and everything was loaded all the way down the fuselage and it was all fed up to the cockpit where we were and we used to have, they used to give us a list of things we had to check and write the results down, the results of this stuff as we flew, and we had to fly at thirty two thousand feet and record all this stuff for them which was really interesting. I loved it actually. It was a bloody good programme and extremely well paid as well! [Laugh]
HB: Right!
BL: So the first year we did London Beirut every day and the second year they decided we’d have to do the Arctic North Atlantic trials to make sure it was adequate for very low temperature conditions so then we started a programme going from London to Keflavik in Iceland and then across to Goose Bay and Gander in to the Maritimes and then back to London. So we did that for six months. That was a very interesting programme, I liked that part of it particularly. And then of course decided to try and get permission to fly into America. So the Americans were very keen on noise abatement and the Comet did make quite a bit of noise on take off of course, and so they said yes you can fly in to America but not land there, and not do take offs and landings. So then we had a period where we were flying out to different places around America using the new VOR navigation systems and so on, and then eventually politically we got permission to do landings over there and it was at that time then when a lot of the American airlines were looking very enviously at the jet Comet to replace traditional old fashioned piston engine aircraft and we did a series, we were doing a series of demonstration flights when, at the time when Pan American, the number one American outfit had just received, they’d just taken delivery of the first of the civilian Boeing 707s and they were pushing out a lot of typical American bullshit that they were going to be the very first pure jet passenger flight on the Atlantic, transatlantic ‘Fly American. Fly pure jet’, and all that, you know. Anyway, at the time we were down in Detroit doing some demonstration flights for United Airlines, they wanted to buy some of these Comets, so we were doing demonstration flights there. And it was there when we suddenly got a call to fly back to New York and, for some reason, and we found we got to New York we were going to do the first transatlantic flight the next day. We beat the Yanks by sixteen days! And when the Yanks had put all this, all the usual stuff in the papers, and they got the big banners out: ‘Fly Pan American the first jet flight across the Atlantic’ and so on. And after we beat them like that they had to change it all and where it said, ‘we are the first,’ they had to put in: ‘we are one of the first.’ They never bloody forgave us for it! Amazing story! [Laughter]
HB: Oh dear.
BL: But anyway, as I say I was very, very strongly involved in -
HB: How many people were on -
BL: - the whole Comet programme from start to finish.
HB: How many people were on that first trans-atlantic flight?
BL: I think we had about sixty, sixty passengers, something like that, yes. You’ve seen the menu of course.
HB: Yes, yes. Got a copy of the menu there [cough]
BL: We got back to London and it was a very historic occasion. They gave us immediate take off at New York and cleared all the flights from London to give us number one priority to land. BBC and everyone were all were there in force to welcome us, and it was headed by Eamon Andrews on BBC.
HB: Oh right. Yes.
BL: They got our wives there and so on waiting. There was two aircraft actually. We did the eastbound New York London and the other one went the other way, London New York and we crossed over at about twenty degrees west I think it was and acknowledged each other, but you know, two of them, one going one the other. And when we went through all the procedure at London old Eamon Andrews said, ‘We’ve got a coach here for you, we’re taking you up to,’ um to, I’ve forgot where the studios were now, I’ll think of it in a minute, ’taking you up to, see we want to put you on TV tonight.’ They’d decided to put us on that programme ‘What’s My Line?’ And old, the panel at that time dear old, oh my bloody memory’s going, bloke who was extremely well known on the BBC, was the chairman of the panel there. Anyway we went on TV and on this programme and all that sort of publicity and so on; it was really interesting. And then of course the following year I was picked to go to, one of the flight crew to go to Ottawa, Canada to pick up Duke of Edinburgh, Philip. We went in the Comet; he was very keen to fly in the Comet, so we went there to pick him up. He’d been there doing a series of talks and so on. The Queen was at Balmoral at the time so we were to pick him up at Ottawa and fly him back to Leuchars in Scotland, which is quite close to Balmoral, drop him off there. But anyway, we picked him up at Ottawa and we were just, hadn’t been airborne very long when a signal came through to say there’d, a big mining disaster had just occurred at Monckton in the Maritimes and would we divert to Monckton and so the Duke could just put in a quick royal visit, two hours royal visit to the disaster area. So we dropped him off at Monckton and then we flew down, further down to Gander and we waited at Gander for him to come, come back and then we brought him from Gander and flew him to Leuchars, dropped him off there. Oh it’s here somewhere I’ve got a picture of it. On board on the way back he was fascinated with the Comet 1, he loved to fly in the Comet, oh the Comet 4 I should say and on the way back he got a lot of individual special pictures of himself and he signed one each for us, and a handshake.
HB: Oh lovely.
BL: I thought she’d got it up here, it’s been on the wall here somewhere. She must have put it away. But it’s personally signed: Philip.
HB: Oh lovely.
BL: Which is, very has, carried a lot of weight, in the years to come. It’ll be worth a few bob I should think!
HB: So when did you actually stop flying Bob?
BL: Well, from then on, after the Comet programme, first BOAC decided to buy the Boeings so they ordered these new Boeing 707s from Boeing of course, from America and in January 1960 the first delivery of, or first Boeing 707 was ready for us to collect. And there was nobody trained on it or anything at that time of course, since we hadn’t got any Boeings. But in America the military version of the Boeing was the KC135 and they’d already built eight hundred of those, they’d all gone to the American air force and the American navy and so on. So having had that number built, all the bugs and problems had all been ironed out, needless to say, unlike so many of our aircraft you see. So it was a well [emphasis] tried and well proven aircraft before it even went into service. So in January ’60 I was, one of the, I was, been an instructor on Comets for some time I’d always been instructing quite a lot and so there’s four instructors, myself and three others were sent out to Seattle to get trained on the 707 and the first Boeing 707 to come off was number hundred and eleven off the line, the production line, so we were still quite a way behind other airlines. Anyway, when we got to Seattle we were trained by the Seattle test flight crew. At that time there’s no civilian aircraft, aerodromes rather, in the UK that could take the 707 except Heathrow and obviously you couldn’t use Heathrow for training but they could use it for service, not for training. Shannon hadn’t got a long enough runway at that time anyway, but they were building a new one. So there was nowhere in the UK where they could train us. So Boeings decided, got permission to use Tucson, Arizona. So Tex Johnson was there, er Tex, not Johnson, Tex Gannard, Tex Gannard was the Boeing Chief Test Pilot at that time and he decided that we’d, he’d take us down to Tucson and we’d set up a training base there and he would train us as instructors and so on, to stay on at Tucson to train the BOAC crews as they were sent out from the UK. So we stayed there to run the training unit [cough] and the crews had come from London, we trained them and they went back and then flew the aircraft in service. So we had a very nice six months so, Tucson and the trainer, super that was. But hard work. I’ll tell you what impressed me more than anything else when I went to Seattle, to Boeings: the difference between the British way of life in [coughing] workload, dedication and that sort of thing in the British aviation industry, was so different to that of the Americans. Soon found the Americans are far ahead of us in their dedication to the work they were doing. It was a bloody eye-opener, believe me. Hard work, but they knew how to do it and it was an absolute revelation to us. For instance when we were doing flight training unit details at London they’re usually about two and a half to three hours at the most, something like that, and then the time we went to Tucson the thing that surprised us was that the minimum flights times were five hours! [emphasis] Bloody long details, oh Christ, but that was typical of the Americans and the hard work they put in. They had three of the test pilots at Tucson with us and a fleet to train us and certify us as being fully trained instructors on Boeing aircraft. And I’ve got a certificate to say that.
HB: Yes. That’s grand.
BL: And anyway, BOAC then got a bit hot under the collar about the cost of running Tucson and all the British bases, so they got permission to use St Mawgan at St Athan, at Newquay. They got permission from the aircraft, from the air force for us to move from Tucson to Newquay and used St Mawgan for training from then on so I then moved, as I say, from Tucson to the Bristol Hotel in Newquay. And being a typical seaside resort, very popular, they didn’t want any weekend flying Saturdays and Sundays, there’s all sorts of objections from the local authority and so on, so it was a bit of a doddle down there.
HB: Good grief!
BL: So it was on the 707 where eventually that was my last flying for BOAC.
HB: I see. There’s a good few years in the air there Bob!
BL: Forty years.
HB: Can I just –
BL: The reason I retired in the end by the way, I was very close to retiring at that time, but I was on training at Shannon at the time on the Boeing fleet. We were doing our winter training at Shannon and one of the details we had to do was to demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft at high, high speed characteristics of the 707. The normal cruising in the 707 was point eight one mach, but the “never exceed” was about point eight eight, which you should never exceed on a Boeing and we used to have to demonstrate though as you got somewhere near the point eight eight the flight control characteristics changed aerodynamically and you had to be aware of this to happen should you ever stray up there in flight. So we had to demonstrate this and we used to fly at forty odd thousand feet from Shannon across to five degree west in the Atlantic then back again doing these high speed runs and I was doing one of those with two students and we suddenly hit a bloody air pocket – bang! It threw us up in the air and down again, hit it really hard, couldn’t, didn’t even realise it was there just clear air turbulence, and I got thrown up on the ceiling and when I dropped down I dropped right across the arm of the co-pilot’s seat with my hip like that and it buggered up something in my hip and I couldn’t even walk off the aircraft carrying my briefcase. So I had to go sick straight away. I went through all the usual palavers of different Harley Street specialists and lord knows what and all they could tell you, ‘oh you’ve slipped a disc in your back,’ you know and all this. They threatened to send me off for a laminectomy operation, but the BOAC doctor at Heathrow who looked after the flight crews, he was ex-RAF and he was bloody good doctor, Doc civil and liked gossip here with the boys, and he really looked after us, one of us, you know.
HB: Very much so yes.
BL: He says, when finally I got to the end of my tether, I couldn’t clear this up, the bloody pain was there, could virtually, almost couldn’t walk and he says, ‘I tell you what,’ he said, ‘I’ll pull a few strings for you,’ he said, ‘you’re an ex RAF officer’ he says, ‘I’ll get you in to Hedley Court.’ So a couple of days later he says, ‘I’ve managed it, you’re going off to Hedley Court they’ll sort you out there.’ So I went off to Hedley Court which of course is very famous today because all these guys from Afghanistan are going in there for amputainees and that sort of thing you know, so I went into Hedley for three months. Within three days of being there they found out exactly what was wrong with me. What I’d done when I fell down like that over this arm, I’d stretched what they call the sacroiliac joint in my hip, it’d stretched it and bent it and that was the cause of all of the trouble.
HB: Good grief!
BL: And they found that after three days there! All these bloody Harley Street specialists I went to see kept telling me all I’d got was a bloody slipped disc. But the outcome was that I spent three months there and they cured it ninety nine percent. And when I finally got to, they wanted to discharge me I went to see the old Group Captain medical and he says, ‘Well,’ he says, ‘we’ve cleared it up for you,’ he says, ‘you’ll be all right,’ he says, ‘there might be the odd occasions when you get a recurrence but the only thing is,’ he says, ‘I’ll have to put a four hour restriction on your licence,’ and of course BOAC wouldn’t accept that because I was on a world wide contract so they said no we can’t accept that but you’re very close to retirement we’ll give you an immediate retirement on pension. So that’s really how I finished. But it didn’t end there.
HB: Oh right.
BL: Another little facet came. I’d been very interested in act, different aircraft accidents and accident investigation. I was on the accident committee for a few years before that, while I was still flying and somebody at BOAC obviously realised that I’d got experience on them and they said well we’ll keep you on but not in a flying capacity, would you like to become a CAA FIA flight accident investigator. I said yes, so they said right. So they sent me off to the University of Southern California, in Los Angeles, to do the full official FIA accident inspector’s course so I had a couple of months over there, and did the course in the university and I qualified, graduated and got my little badge and everything, as an official accident investigator. So I came back to London and I went on two of the accidents actually, one of which was a Boeing which landed with a wing on fire at Heathrow after one of the engines had dropped off into the Staines reservoir. I’ve got a photograph of that landing, with the wing on fire, amongst this lot here somewhere.
HB: Good grief. Yeah.
BL: And anyway after that I found it was a bit boring and of course by that time I’d got a farm in Surrey and I’d got, we were milking a hundred and twenty five Jersey cows, and I’d got thirty thousand chickens, got five vans on the road delivering fresh eggs and cream around London and it was taking up so much time I thought well I haven’t got bloody time to go in so I finally decided I’d quit completely and carry on farming and that really was the end of it.
HB: Yeah, it does bring it to an end, doesn’t it really.
BL: So, quite a lot of various incidents in my career.
HB: Just a few, just a few. Just going back, I meant to actually ask you this ages ago. When you were on 463 Squadron -
BL: Yes.
HB: With the old, the Australians, that would be towards the end of ’45. Did you ever, when you were there on operations did you ever come across the German jet fighters?
BL: Er, no. Not, not the jets, no.
HB: No. All right.
BL: Incidentally, talking about that, of course, when Peenemunde came up, it just so happened, we didn’t, on the Stirlings by the way, the Stirlings from the squadron, I think we put about a dozen Stirlings up on the Peenemunde operation and we’d been briefed from weeks and weeks and weeks that something very special was coming up, no one knew what it was except it was something very special operation but it was tied in very closely to the right weather. It had to be absolutely perfect on weather forecast and of course it turned out it was Peenemunde. And it just so happened that when the Peenemunde trip came up we were on two weeks’ leave. So we missed it.
HB: Yeah. Right.
BL: But it was from then on of course we were very active on bombing these flying bomb sites in France and various parts of Europe. But we never came across any of the jet fighters at all. No definitely not.
HB: Right. Well I think. I think Bob, we’ve come to a natural sort of end, and I just thank you very much. Absolutely fascinating.
BL: Well I hope I haven’t bored you too much.
HB: Oh no! Well I haven’t gone to sleep! [Laughter] No absolutely fascinating, absolutely fascinating.
BL: I’ve been lucky really in a sense, that you know, had all these different variants, military and civilian, I’ve very lucky to be on you know, these special products, projects. Rather like the as I said, the two years I was test flying with De Havilland, that was really interesting.
HB: Yeah. I’m going to, one of the things I forgot to do at the beginning, I didn’t actually say at the beginning: it’s Wednesday the 12th of December 2018. I forgot about that at the beginning, I got a bit excited! So I’m going to terminate the interview Bob and get on with the paperwork. Thank you very much again.
BL: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bob Leedham
Creator
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Harry Bartlett
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-12-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALeedhamHJL181212, PLeedhamHJL1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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02:16:46 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Leedham was a flight engineer who carried out twenty-one operations on Stirlings. At the outbreak of war Bob was an apprentice motor mechanic, and along with other apprentices, was left to operate the garage when all the engineers were called up. In 1940 he enlisted in the RAF and following initial training, Bob was selected for pilot training but did not achieve the requirement of flying solo within twelve hours. His engineering background meant he was posted to RAF St Athan and trained as a flight engineer. A posting to RAF Stradishall followed, and conversion to Stirling aircraft. Now part of a crew and posted to 90 Squadron at RAF Ridgewell, operational flying commenced. Bob suggests political interference restricted the performance of the aircraft resulting in a higher casualty rate amongst Stirling crews, and explains how the introduction of Window anti-radar equipment improved this. In Spring 1943 the squadron moved to RAF Wratting Common and in Autumn, converted to Lancasters. With more Lancasters coming into service, there was a lack of experience on four-engined aircraft, and some Stirling’s were deployed to RAF Swinderby for crew training. This move coincided with Bob obtaining his commission and he became an instructor on both Stirling and Lancasters. Late in 1944, Bob was back flying operations with 463 Squadron at RAF Waddington, where he was senior co-pilot/flight engineer. Following peace declaration in Europe, Bob joined Tiger Force in preparation for moving to Japan, but the war ended before this materialised. Bob began a post-war career in civil aviation, initially operating the Avro Tudor, and flying approximately three-hundred operations during the Berlin airlift. He also gives an account of the development of the DH 106 Comet and details the faults which resulted in the aircraft being grounded. While undertaking demonstrations in America, Bob was recalled to New York, where his crew discovered they were to operate the first civilian jet flight eastbound across the Atlantic. In 1960, Bob was one of four certified to instruct on the new generation of aircraft, the Boeing 707. An injury sustained from clear-air turbulence curtailed Bob’s flying career, and he progressed into the investigation of aircraft accidents.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Anne-Marie Watson
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Azores
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
United States
Zimbabwe
Arizona--Tucson
England--Burton upon Trent
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Essex
England--Hampshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Peenemünde
India--Kolkata
Italy--Elba
Mediterranean Sea--Bay of Naples
New Brunswick--Moncton
Ontario--Ottawa
Scotland--Leuchars
Wales--Glamorgan
Washington (State)--Seattle
England--Cornwall (County)
Arizona
Ontario
New Brunswick
India
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Staffordshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1944
10 Squadron
463 Squadron
5 Group
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
86 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
C-47
flight engineer
Gneisenau
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Pathfinders
pilot
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021)
radar
RAF Alconbury
RAF Halton
RAF Ridgewell
RAF St Athan
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Stradishall
RAF Swinderby
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodhall Spa
RAF Wratting Common
Scharnhorst
Stirling
Sunderland
Tiger force
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/PMotterheadN1501.1.jpg
9928e60ab5a9888fc7ed2e8d31ecb22f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/PMottersheadN1504.1.jpg
b581a06e8e60fa9f61b82d95c8c5526d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/AMotterheadN150719.2.mp3
ee7de033ffb55e3132da3953f9123f73
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mottershead, Bluey
Nevil Mottershead
N Mottershead
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mottershead, N
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader 'Bluey' Mottershead DFC (b. 1922, Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a pilot with 158 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok. So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is me, Annie Moody and the interviewee is Bluey Mottershead. And the interview is taking place at Mr Mottershead’s home in Brailsford on the 19th of July 2015. So, off you go. Tell me a little bit about your, your childhood.
NM: Yes.
AM: And leading up to why you decided to join the RAF, Bluey?
NM: Well, I was born on a farm in Shropshire. I was the sixth child of my parents but they had lost two previous to me arriving on the scene and therefore, when I arrived I was treated something special. And that special has been with me all my life. And my best friend from my youth, in my youth, was also, had joined the Royal Air Force for aircrew duties and he was in a place called Honington. On a live station in Suffolk. And while they were taking a NAAFI break a bomber came over, dropped a bomb, hit the NAAFI and killed four of them. And then thereafter I was stood in the churchyard of my village while they were burying him. There went the past and so —
AM: What age would you be then Bluey?
NM: Eighteen.
AM: You were eighteen.
NM: And so, when it came around to the January after Christmas I thought I have got to go and revenge for my friend. And so, on the 18th — on the 8th of January 1942 I went to Shrewsbury and signed up for aircrew duties and I became nineteen at the end of that particular week. And so I was sent home on what they called deferred service following the medicals that I had at Shrewsbury and going to Cardington for forty eight hours to have the medicals there. And when I returned I received this letter from the Air Ministry, shall we say, saying, ‘You are now going home on deferred service and we will call you when we’re ready.’ Well, I thought that date would never come but anyway, eventually I received information from them which said report to Lord’s Cricket Ground on the 7th July 1941. No. That would be wrong. No. 1941 it was.
AM: ‘41.
NM: And there was hundreds of us there. All from over the country. The same men who had been on deferred service and they were all called together to the, to Lords Cricket Ground. And then were allocated sleeping accommodation in St Johns Wood. In a lovely place called Viceroy Court. And we were lying on palliases on the floor and there was no furniture but quite obviously the flats would be luxury flats. And having done that they decided right we can’t keep all these men here. It would be rather dangerous. There were thousands of us in a very small area and if the Germans had got to know, then bombed the area they’d have killed thousands of us. And they decided to send parties of us out and I was sent to Scampton. Just the job. And of course Scampton was a live station and we were all very interested to watch these Hampdens and things taking off. The Hampdens I didn’t care two hoots for. In fact, I did go to one of the satellites of Scampton and had a ride in one which I didn’t think was fit for purpose. And so when that was over came back to St Johns Wood which was called ACRC.
AM: What did you actually do at Scampton? Did you just —
NM: Oh just normal.
AM: Square bashing.
NM: Square bashing and all sort of things connected with the air [pause] I’m sorry. My –
AM: Oh don’t worry.
NM: Identification of aircraft and all that sort of thing, you see.
AM: Right.
NM: But anyway we were shipped back, back to ACRC at St John’s Wood and from there I was sent to Newquay in Cornwall for my ITW. Now, having completed all that we then were sent to a little airfield by High Wycombe called Booker and there we were introduced to the Tiger Moth. And I had a very senior flight lieutenant, old flight lieutenant as my teacher sort of thing. And he and I got on very well and in the end I discovered afterwards that having been sent on for the next stage I’d never gone solo in this Tiger Moth. I’d flown it time enough again with him in there. So, then the time came they said, ‘Right. Off you go home. Take a bit of leave at Christmas and report to —' a place at Manchester. A park. Something.
AM: Heaton. Heaton Park.
NM: Heaton Park. Heaton Park. There once again there was thousands of us and we were billeted out and I was billeted with a family — together with a friend of mine, Ron Champion and we were there. And funny things happened which don’t, have nothing to do with my life’s —
AM: Oh no. Tell us. Tell us.
NM: We [pause] there was a small area within the park itself was RAF property. And outside that, outside that we were ourselves again and of course we were staying with these people. Well, one young lad was seen walking around outside the RAF area after midnight. And so of course they called him in and said, ‘What’s the problem?’ He said, ‘Well, my landlady keeps getting in bed with me.’ And [laughs] do you know there must, must have been fifty or so had been there before and they never said a word and he had to go and let the cat out of the bag. After completing all that of course it was decided because we had not got the facilities in this country to train two thousand pilots and so it was decided to send us overseas and I was very fortunate in as much as in the January 1942 we sailed out of Liverpool for Halifax, Nova Scotia. And I do not recommend being in a smaller boat crossing the Atlantic at that time of the year. There was a little, a Polish destroyer with us and he kept disappearing out of sight and coming up the other side. How the hell they kept stuff in their whatever they call them. Where they keep — do all the food for them. I can’t remember.
AM: The galley.
NM: The galley. And anyway one or two of them the first morning out — the boat we were [pause] I think it was lunchtime. No. It had got to be morning and the boat did this. Twice.
AM: Rocking about in the sea.
NM: And everything on the table went whoosh in to a ruck on the floor. Well half of them looked at it and since they were little bit of somehow or other being affected by being at sea half of them went [laughs] went missing the next, the next day and boy could I eat, and I ate everything that came in front of me.
AM: You were not seasick then.
NM: No. No. It didn’t trouble me one little bit and then having landed we got on the train and went to Moncton. The PDSI. Personnel department of the –whatever it is. I can’t remember. And there we stayed. And one of the lads on the boat —I said, I said to him, ‘Shall we go to St George’s Church tonight? To the service.’ And he said, ‘Yes.’ So we went to the service and there we made friends with a family and I’ve been in touch with that family right after the war and they came and stayed with me. How wonderful things are. And then it was decided then we were ready and we were going to be shipped down to the United States. So, we got on a train and we were on that train for two days and three nights. It stopped at Toronto and I managed to get somebody on the train to contact my cousin in Toronto and he was, he came to the train to see me. Well I didn’t know him because he was in uniform and the last time I’d seen him he was in civvies. And he didn’t know me because I was in uniform. But nevertheless it went ok and on we went down into, into Georgia. Turner Field, Georgia. After a short time there they divided us up and I was sent in to, in to Lakeland in Florida.
AM: Yeah. We’re ok.
NM: Yeah. Lakeland in Florida.
AM: Actually. [pause] Ok. I think we’re ok.
NM: And then we were flying Stearmans and having completed what was necessary we were then shipped to Macon in Georgia to fly in the second stage. They called it Advanced Flying School. And we were flying multi —whatever the plane was called. I ought to have my logbook here. That would have helped a great deal. But nevertheless we were flying. And I was very lucky that the instructor that I got was, had been a pupil himself in class 42a and I was in class 42i. We had reached that stage there were so many classes. And we did all the necessary and then we were passed on to Valdosta which was Advanced Flying School. And there we were flying twin engines. Three types of twin engine as well as the A6 which we called [pause] we called the Harvard. And my instructor was an American lieutenant and so he said, ‘Come on Mottershead. We’re going in the Harvard today.’ So off we go and get in this Harvard. And he said, ‘Right. Do the checks.’ So, I did the check. ‘Ok. Taxi around and take off.’ Everything alright, but my right wing was down, and my left wing was up there and I couldn’t get the damned thing right. I thought what have I not done? And I realised the lock that was in the joystick — I hadn’t pulled it out [laughs] so then the wing came up and everything was nice. He said, ‘I shouldn’t do that again if I was you. Watch it in future.’ [laughs] And got back and landed and he said, ‘Right. Off you go and fly it yourself.’ So I did do. And it was a beautiful aircraft to fly. It touched down on all three wheels. No trouble at all. So, having completed there we then on the, in the October, came up for our papers of authority as being a pilot under the United States Army Air Force and I’ve got my silver type wings. The American wings. Then it was a case of I went before a board of four senior American officers and they looked at all my paperwork and said, ‘Would you like to stay behind and teach future classes of UK,’ and because of something that had happened while I was at Macon, Georgia I had to say, ‘I’m very sorry, but I can’t.’ I’ll tell you that separately. And so, on the train back to Macon —back to Moncton in New Brunswick of course I’d already made contact with the family, so I re-made the contact with this family and got on so wonderfully well but the main thing about being here in Britain and being over there was the fact that we were limited by ration books to XYZ whereas they —it was there for you to buy and eat etcetera. Marvellous. And of course, I could eat. There’s no argument about it. So, after a while they said, ‘Right,’ — get your knapsack, not your knapsack, the bag with all your bits and pieces in. ‘There’s a boat in for you.’ So, right, we got on the train, landed in Halifax and walked off on to the quay. You can say that again. A boat. It was the original Queen Elizabeth. Oh dear. And we got on board that feeling millionaires. But there was that many on from different countries and different regiments and all the rest of it. All coming across with one purpose in mind and that was to kill Nazism. And so, we crossed the Atlantic unescorted. Our liner was doing twenty six knots during the day and through the night she was doing thirty two ‘cause that gave it that little bit extra to get out where the Germans might well have figured out where we might be on such and such a time and so, one morning we woke up and we were in the Clyde.
AM: Just like that.
NM: Just like that. We’d gone through the boom and we were in the Clyde. So we had to then gather our things together and come down stairs after stairs ‘til we came to water level. And then we got on tugs which took us over to dry land and there was a train waiting for us to take us to [pause] well you’re asking me now [pause] well-known place up in Yorkshire anyway. And of course they said, ‘Right. Well you’re here now. Right. Take a bit of leave. You’ve been away three —six months.. Go and see your parents,’ etcetera which I did do and then I got notice, right —'Report to Little Rissington in Gloucestershire.’ And that’s where I was flying Oxfords. I had a little student tuition on the Oxford and then the instructor said, ‘Right. Mottershead go and get yourself some practice.’ Now –
AM: So how big was an Oxford? What?
NM: Oxford aircraft.
AM: Yeah. How big? How big was that?
NM: Twin engine.
AM: Right. Ok.
NM: The American when they open the throttles get hold of the throttles get hold of them and pull them back. We do this. Get behind the throttles and press them forward. So I was more or less getting the American system out of, out of use and back in. So he said, ‘Right Mottershead. Take that one and go and get a bit of flying yourself.’ So me — I flew at about two ninety. Something like that. And flew until I picked up the River Severn and I flew up the River Severn until I got to within a mile to where I lived and I flew around and around and around. And after a while I thought, right, well I’d better get back. In the meantime a front had moved in and I was above cloud. And I was flying down towards back in the general direction of Little Rissington and I did not know where I was. And I’ve got, I came up with —I shall either A) I can jump out with my parachute and let my aircraft go and crash in to something. Or B) I can go down through and hit something that I wouldn’t wish to hit like a church tower or something like that. And as I was pondering over it I looked on my port beam and there was an aircraft coming towards me and he passed in front of me and I said to myself, ‘If you know where you’re going I’m going with you.’ And I followed him and he, it was a, it was a radar station where —not radar. Signals and all the rest of it. At a place called Madeley near Hereford. And he landed and I landed after him. And so they just picked up the phone and rang Little Rissington, ‘One of your boys has touched down here.’ So he came over and I took off and followed him home. Went the day well. Having done all that I was then posted to Harwell where we had clapped out Wellingtons who’d done all the necessary they wanted to or at least they were wanted for and were in a clapped-out situation. And as we stood there we crewed up. I did not choose anybody. I just stood there.
AM: I was going to ask you about crewing up. How that went.
NM: I stood there, and they came and joined me. It was as easy as that.
AM: Yeah.
NM: Right.
AM: Together or in ones and twos?
NM: Well, I don’t whether they’d been talking with one lot over there and they looked at me and thought well I like the look of him and so they came over and joined me. So, I’d got everything except the flight engineer and the second gunner at that stage. Well, I didn’t stay at Harwell but I went to one of their satellites. A place we called Hampstead Norreys near Newbury and we were flying out of there. Well, we had been warned, ‘Don’t over shoot.’ Come in and land properly because there was a big pit, gravel pit at the end of the runway and people had gone in. Oh dear. The trouble. Anyway, we flew that and did all the necessaries and then having finished they said, ‘Right off you go home and get some leave and report to a place called Riccall,’ near –
AM: York.
NM: Yes. Selby. There we go, there we were introduced to the Halifax. Four engine bombers.
AM: So, you finish your training, you’ve got your crew and you’ve gone to Riccall. Have you been assigned to a squadron at this point?
NM: No. Not yet.
AM: Right. Ok.
NM: And there at Riccall I picked up a flight engineer and another gunner. And once again in latter years I said to the flight engineer, ‘How did you come to join me?’ He said ‘Well, I saw you standing there and I walked over and stood with you. It’s as easy as that.’ And so the same with the gunner. He came and joined me. And then of course on completion of that but before then the chief flying instructor at Riccall was called Harry Drummond. So, I got used, just used to flying the Halifax. He said, ‘Right, Mottershead take your crew and there’s, one of the planes over there. One of the Halibags. Take that and get a bit of flying hours in with them.’ Fair enough. Thank you very much and off we went. We got in this aircraft. Taxied around to the runway. Ok. Right. Open the throttle. I was belting down the runway and looked at my speedometer. I hadn’t got any. No speed. And it was too late to stop so I took off without it. And I flew without a speedometer around a time or two. And we tried to, what had happened we’d left the cover on the pitot head. Once again checking beforehand. We tried — first of all we opened the hatch in the front and tried to push it off and we couldn’t do anything like that. We couldn’t reach it. And so I switched on the heater and the heater wouldn’t burn it off. I thought, ‘Well, righto. Well, I’ve got you up here. You lads. I’d better get you down again.’ So, I said, ‘Right, we’re going in now.’ And I approached a little too fast because I didn’t want to stall and go in before I reached the runway. And so, I sort of hit the runway and bounced a little bit which wasn’t good for old Halifax bombers and whipped around and parked up where I’d taken it from and the crew got out. The wireless operator stood on the shoulders of the flight engineer, reached up and took the pitot head cover off just before Harry Drummond arrived around the corner. And he gave me a rollicking for landing the way I did but I didn’t tell him what had gone wrong. Went the day well again.
AM: Yeah.
NM: And so the day came that we had to go to Lissett. We were transferred to Lissett. Now, I think I’d probably heard of Lissett but we all went. There was Doug Cameron and his crew and myself and my crew. And of course, we had to get a bit of flying in together before we went on operations. I arrived there. Can you switch off a second, I’ll go and fetch —
[recording paused]
NM: Are you on?
AM: Ok. We’re back on.
NM: Right. I arrived at Lissett on the 15th of June 1943. And after a familiarisation on the 16th and the 17th — on the 21st was my first operation. To Krefeld. Now, all targets, as Bomber Command will tell you, have got searchlights and flak as well as fighters waiting to get hold of you. So, we went, went through the — etcetera. And poor Doug Cameron — a different story. I must tell you about him. Not on my record. And as a result, when we got back — you see a rear gunner never sees what’s ahead of him. He can only see what’s behind and he could see the fires in Krefeld burning thirty miles away. So when we arrived back at Lissett we went to the debriefing room and he said to me, ‘I’m not bloody going again.’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘I am not bloody going again.’ And he was taken out and stripped straightaway of his brevet, sergeants and all the rest of it. What happened to him I don’t know but in, in hindsight he did me a very good turn. For they took my other gunner, mid-upper gunner from me and a couple of gunners had just completed a tour — a Canadian pilot’s tour of operations. But they needed another five runs themselves so, one of them related, the Groupie, said to — ‘Go around and see Mottershead. He’s looking for some gunners.’ And they came around to see me and we were discussing one thing or another. And I said, ‘Right. This is the position. My job is to fly that thing. And if you tell me to dive to port I shall dive to port. Don’t you worry about it. Everything you tell me I shall do.’ They said, ‘We’re in.’ And so they stayed with me for their five ops which cleared them. Then I got my original gunner back. Mid-upper gunner back.
AM: Mid-upper.
NM: Having lost the rear gunner. And then I had nineteen different gunners on my tour of operation which was must be a flaming record with the exception of perhaps a wing commander and that who had to grab a crew where he could get one.
AM: Why did they keep changing, Bluey?
NM: Well, I had to have gunners and they [pause] Smith and Edwards were the names of the two gunners were and we got on a like a mountain on fire and so it went on one after another. I went to Berlin on three occasions. I went to [pause] oh hell. Where’s the cathedral?
AM: Oh.
NM: We went —
AM: Dresden. Not Dresden.
NM: No. Cologne.
AM: Oh Cologne. Yeah.
NM: I went to Cologne on three occasions. I went to Mannheim on three occasions and in between all the other nights that we were bombing etcetera. On the second visit to Mannheim we were, people do not realise this, we were flying in complete darkness and other than the fact we saw markers ahead so the bomb aimer led us, led me to it, and he said, ‘Right. Bombs gone.’ Two or three seconds later there was such a hell of a bang. I said, ‘What the bloody hell was that?’ And what had happened an aircraft above us had dropped his load and hit my port inner engine. It sheared the blades off the engine. Off the propellers. And of course, the engine ran away and with it going like that it shook the plane as though it was really in trouble. Anyway, fortunately I’d got a very good flight engineer. He shut the engine down. Closed it down. Then he pumped all the fuel out of the tank nearest to the port inner across the wing to the tanks on the other side you see. Now, my reaction was, when that happened — stick the nose down let’s get out of here which I did do. Because the explosion had hit the Perspex around me on the port, especially on the port side and did other damage etcetera and so it was, we were down to five thousand feet before we could make headway. Now, everyone in Bomber Command will tell you if you are on your own flying at five thousand feet by heck you’ll soon have somebody on your tail. So, we were crossing and as we flew cross country in the dark I could see the lights of this town or city, whatever it was, I could see all the street lights because being under Nazi control they didn’t have to have a blackout. And so I said, ‘Right, get some Window ready in case the searchlights come up,’ etcetera. And we gave a dose of Window and they didn’t come on and we kept flying and I crossed —
AM: What’s Window?
NM: Window.
AM: What’s that mean?
NM: Slips of paper, silver backed paper.
AM: Oh yes.
NM: And that dropping by the millions fill their, their —
AM: The radar.
NM: The radar.
AM: The signal.
NM: What we call Grass.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
NM: They couldn’t pick out what was what and [pause] where’d I got to —
AM: So, you’re on your way back.
NM: On our way back –
AM: You’ve seen all the lights.
NM: We crossed the coast and I said to the flight engineer, ‘What’s the fuel like?’ He said, ‘We’ve got enough to get back to Lissett.’ And so, we went back to Lissett. Now, the hydraulics on the Halifax is controlled by the port inner engine. The hydraulic. And I didn’t know whether my undercarriage was locked. So I called in and they said, ‘Right. Fly down the runway as low as you can, and we’ll put the searchlight on you and have a look at you.’ So, having done that they said, ‘Right. We think you’re locked in alright.’ I said, ‘Right.’ So I went around again and landed. Went the day well.
AM: Again.
NM: We were back home. And it went on until the last. My last trip was to Berlin on the 22nd of November 1943 and the Wing Commander Jock Calder was on that night. I feel sure he was on. So when we came, you know, came from our aircraft in to debriefing Jock said to me, ‘That’s it Bluey. No more.’ And that was the end of my tour. The end of my flying altogether. I never did fly anything else.
AM: Ever.
NM: Ever.
AM: DFC.
NM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I then, they decided they needed controllers for operating Oboe. Now, Oboe was controlling aircraft over Germany from, from either — the main station was in Norfolk. Winterton. Did you happen to see the programme last night on — it was all about the lighthouses turned into houses etcetera. And Winterton was the Cat station. Now there was another station down in Deal in Kent and that was called the Mouse station. And the Cat station was controlled — the Cat station controlled the pilot. The Mouse station was talking to the navigator, bomb aimer. We’re talking about Mosquitos. And so, he would, when he reached the area he wanted to he’d pick up our signal. If he was too near he had dots. If he was too far out he had dashes. He had to have a steady signal and kept flying at a distance from the station in Norfolk at a distance of say two hundred and fifty miles away. And if he kept flying he would complete a two hundred and fifty mile circuit all around us, you see. But [pause] so, I had to go down to Swanage to learn all about this Oboe business at a little place called Tilly Whim. Down there. They seemed to have a station of the same thing. So when we’d finished. Right. I had no say on where I was going and I was sent to Winterton in Norfolk. Not to the one in Kent. The next morning after I arrived there I walked into the signals office and there was a young lady on the teleprinter talking to headquarters for 8 Group. Headquarters at — I forget the name for the moment. On the tele — on the teleprinter. And when she’d finished she looked at me and I said, ‘You’re wearing too much makeup.’ I’d found my wife. So —
AM: What did she say back?
NM: She didn’t. She [laughs] she was, she was a WAAF, you see. Oh dear. Oh dear and then of course that went on until the war had finished and then they didn’t want anybody there then.
AM: So what exactly were you doing there, Bluey?
NM: I was watching the younger part of the air force. That they’d got everything set up alright. The distance and all that sort of thing. What was going on. And I was even taken from there and posted down in to Deal. The Cat station. For a while.
AM: The Cat one.
NM: Anyway, when the war was over we didn’t need either of them. And so of course I had met Kay and there we are, by hangs another tale. So, I was still in the air force and they decided well you’ve done a lot of link trainer flying. The link trainer aircraft in the dark. It’s a statutory thing but you’re all closed in. You can’t see what was going on. You had to fly by instruments. And so, I learned, I learned how to do that and they posted me first of all to Prestwick in Norfolk.
AM: In –
NM: In Ayrshire. To the airfield there well that was then being taken over to become the airfield for Glasgow.
AM: Yes.
NM: The main airfield. So, I was on there a very short time and they said, ‘Right. Well we’ll post you to Marham in Norfolk.’ And I was on the same thing but when I got there and set up everything and ready for pilots they said well the war’s over we don’t need to do this anymore. And so, the rest of my time I was doing all sorts of jobs. Particularly, orderly officer and all that sort of thing and then I reached the stage where I thought, ‘Right. Look. We’ve got to go ahead now. We’ve got civilian life ahead,’ and so my dear wife and I decided —
AM: So, you were married by this time.
NM: We were getting married then.
AM: Ok. Yeah. Sorry.
NM: The war had finished up. We had already arranged the marriage up in Lanarkshire because she was a Lanarkshire girl, for the 18th of August 1945. The war finished in the Far East the 15th of August 1945. And so, we went up there and got married and thereafter settled down and I didn’t quite know what to do. Like a lot of people who had been in the services it was difficult to know exactly what to do. Anyway, there was a company in Liverpool called Silcocks Animal Foods that supplied to farming communities and I’d been a farmer’s son. And the position I was in and a decent sort of looking fellow the Silcocks agent who used to, who went to Shropshire, covered Shropshire said, ‘Well why don’t you join us?’ And so, I made enquiries and I joined Silcocks. I was sent to Nuneaton under an agent who had been there years to help him and I did all the necessary. And then came a vacancy of an area in Derbyshire and so I was sent from there to Derbyshire and landed in Brailsford on the, in August 1952. Something like that. And settled down and I was going around the farms and of course they knew I was a flying type and at that time Brooke Bond had a certain types of cigarette. Not cigarettes but cards in the thing.
AM: Yes.
NM: And that helped me to get familiar with the families etcetera. Swapping and one thing and another. And I reached the stage where one Remembrance Sunday morning at Brailsford, after that Mr Cecil Dalton who ran Silkolene Lubricants at Belper said, ‘Neville, will you come and work for me?’ And I said, ‘Mr Cecil, I will come and work for you.’ And I went and worked for Silkolene Lubricants until I retired.
AM: Right.
NM: Good.
AM: Neville. It sounds funny to hear you called Neville. I always think of you as Bluey.
NM: Yeah. Well I’m still known as Bluey of course. As you know.
AM: Just tell me why you became called Bluey.
NM: Because of my hair. I had ginger red hair. Now, the Australians — those big kangaroos in Australia which have reddy brown hair were called Blues. And so, when the first Australian saw me he said, ‘Well you’re a Bluey.’ And that’s it.
AM: It stuck.
NM: And it’s been with me ever since.
AM: Can I ask you a little bit about the 158 Squadron Association.
NM: Yes.
AM: And you became chairman I think. Tell me a little about that.
NM: Yes. Well I started looking, I started when I came [pause] when I’d finished. Well as soon as I could, I can’t remember exactly, I decided to draw up a register of all those who had been with 158 Squadron and [pause] now I’m looking for something in particular. I think I left it next door. But it’s the book with all the names in. The complete crews. And I kept getting these names of these, of these people and inviting them. And so in 1989 I think it was I got the freedom of entry into this town of Bridlington for the squadron and that’s how it developed from there. And I’m still now president of the squadron until such time as I kick my boots and somebody else will take over.
AM: So, every year you go up to Lissett.
NM: Every time. Yes. Yes. Yes. Now I’ll —
AM: And what about the memorial? Tell me a little bit more about the memorial at Lissett.
NM: Yes.
AM: How did that come about?
NM: Well. After Lissett the old airfield became a farm. Belonged to a farmer. And the powers that be decided it would be the ideal site to put up wind generators. So they put up twelve wind generators on the old airfield. In the meantime, 158 — if you reverse those figure you’ve got 851 and that was the number of young people who were killed on that squadron alone. Eight hundred and fifty one. Eight hundred and fifty males and one female. The one female was a sergeant WAAF in the Met office and she’d never been in an aeroplane and she went on a flight with someone unscheduled just to show her what went on. The damned thing crashed on [pause] that Head that comes out north of Bridlington. Crashed there and killed the lot of them. And she was one of them. So there was eight hundred and fifty airmen, men, who were killed and one WAAF. And so, it was decided by the people who were going to put these generators up that they needed a memorial and of course we were behind it and said yes. And that memorial is still drawing people. Just as the Angel of the North drew people to see it so the one at Lissett. Is that still on? In fact, the other day, one of our members who lives up in the Wakefield area had been up there and gone to have a look at it. He said, ‘It looks awful,’ he said, ‘All we’ve got is stalks left.’ What happened is there are flowers which bloom.
AM: Yeah. There’s poppies there.
NM: And then it’s all left so that the seeds from that drop down to the ground and re –
AM: Yeah.
NM: Come alive again. And he went at the bad time of the year. So, when he rang again I said, ‘Look there’s nothing I can do about it. As much as I appreciate you ringing me and telling me. I know what its like. But,’ I said, ‘We have nobody in that area at all to do anything.’ But the locals do it. Anyway, I understood that they’d even called in the East Midlands, East Yorkshire organisation had called in people to go and have a clean up there.
AM: People.
NM: I hadn’t ordered it. They just went and did it.
AM: Excellent because it’s a lovely memorial isn’t it.
NM: It’s a lovely memorial. A friend of mine from Derbyshire whose funeral I attended this year — he always talked about me and us and I said, ‘Well take a run up there and have a look at the memorial yourself.’ So he, along with another couple and he and his wife went to see it and then I saw him a few days afterwards. I said, ‘What do you think of the memorial?’ And he said, ‘It’s a very very wonderful thing.’ He said, ‘I read every name on that memorial and yours wasn’t on it.’ [laughs] So, I said, ‘Well it won’t be will it? I’m still here.’
AM: Still here. They’re the ones that are not.
NM: He didn’t realise that you see. But it really is. Oh, and let me go and fetch something first.
[recording paused]
AM: So I’m looking at a picture of the first meeting of the Squadron Association.
NM: In 1947.
AM: Ok. Were you there? Are you on it?
NM: Yes. Yes. I’m on the back row. You’ll see me.
AM: Point. Point yourself out to me.
NM: This little chap here, look.
AM: Oh of course you are.
NM: And that was arranged by Scruffy Dale at — I forget the name of the place now. And we all turned up for this and that photograph was taken. And there’s all sorts of people on that photograph and I can — there’s no one left on that photograph as far as I’m concerned. Only me. All the rest are gone. Now, I want to show you this because this is what I’m working on.
AM: Bluey’s showing me the most beautiful tapestry. Is it tapestry or cross stitch?
NM: No. It’s tapestry.
AM: Tapestry of the Halifax and —
NM: The crew.
AM: The crew and it’s beautiful and we’ll take a photograph of it.
NM: It’s not finished yet ‘cause I’ll go and fetch the other bit if I haven’t got it here. This is the other bit.
AM: How long have you been doing this for Bluey?
NM: [laughs] Oh heaven knows.
AM: It’s lovely. I’m going to end the interview now but we’ll take a photograph of this — of the tapestry that Bluey’s been doing.
NM: Now that fits. That will be fitted in there.
AM: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bluey Mottershead
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-19
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMotterheadN150719
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:45:34 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Born on a farm in Shropshire, his best friend from his youth joined the Royal Air Force as aircrew and was killed at RAF Honington when a German aircraft bombed the station. A desire for revenge made him enlist for flying duties in January 1941. He was sent to RAF Scampton for basic training where he had a flight in a Hampden which he rated as "not fit for purpose".
Flying training commenced at RAF Booker on Tiger Moths and he was then sent out of England as part of the Empire Training Scheme. Flying training on Stearman aircraft recommenced at Lakeland in Florida followed by multi-engined training at Macon in Georgia and Valdosta for advanced training. In October 1942 he became a pilot under the American Army Air Force System and declined an offer to stay and become an instructor.
Returning to Britain on an unescorted Queen Elizabeth liner, he trained on Oxfords at RAF Little Rissington. Posted to RAF Harwell to fly, in Bluey's terms "clapped out Wellingtons" he describes the system for forming a crew. They were posted to RAF Riccall to fly the Halifax.
The next posting was to an operational squadron at RAF Lissett where he did his first operational flight to Krefeld in June 1943 and trips to Berlin, Cologne and Mannheim. After his trip to Krefeld, his rear gunner refused to fly and was removed. On his second trip to Mannheim, Bluey's aircraft was struck by a bomb from an aircraft flying above. They had to reduce height and so used Window to disguise their location. The final trip was to Berlin in November 1943 and, having completed his tour, was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Bluey never flew again. Sent to Tilly Whim, Bluey was trained to operate Oboe and explains the device. Posted to an Oboe station at RAF Winterton to monitor junior operatives, he met his future wife.
After the war had finished he became an instructor on the Link Trainer and sent to various RAF stations and finally to RAF Marham from where he was demobilised and returned to civilian life. In civilian life, employment in the farm feed industry was followed by time in the lubricant industry until retirement. Bluey compiled a register of all crews that flew with 158 Squadron and formed a Squadron association in 1947, of which he became president, and organised a memorial to the squadron at former RAF Lissett.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-06
1943-11
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Gloucestershire
England--Norfolk
England--Oxfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Canada
United States
Florida
Florida--Lakeland
Georgia
Georgia--Macon
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Mannheim
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
158 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Flying Training School
Halifax
Hampden
Harvard
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
love and romance
memorial
military ethos
Oboe
Oxford
pilot
RAF Hampstead Norris
RAF Harwell
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Honington
RAF Lissett
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Marham
RAF Riccall
RAF Scampton
recruitment
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1152/11710/PThomasB1801.2.jpg
82be96ae0e60596cb5bf8fe52ba63251
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1152/11710/AThomasB180518.1.mp3
87dc5ef5d939040d4e26f5126d911f58
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Thomas, Bessie
B Thomas
Bessie Shackley
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bessie Thomas (b. 1942). She served in the Women's Auxilliary Air Force at RAF Snaith.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Thomas, B
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RS: My name is Robb Scott. I am a volunteer for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m interviewing Mrs Bessie Thomas. It is the 14th of May 2018 and we’re at her home address in Consett. Also present is Bessie’s neighbour, Teresa Davidson. Bessie, I’d like to start by thanking you for agreeing to talk to me today. As you know this is going to be preserved on the International Bomber Command Centre’s website for future generations to hear your story.
BT: Yes.
RS: Are you happy for me to carry on?
BT: I am.
RS: Ok. Lovely. First of all Bessie I’d like you to tell me a little bit about your early life before you joined the WAAFs please.
BT: Well, I was, left school when I was fourteen and I went down to Consett Iron Company to be a typist working in the invoice, invoice department. And then when the war started of course I was still young. And then when I became about eighteen and Dunkirk came a problem I felt I’ve got to go and save my country. And so I went and joined up down at Durham and we got word to say from Innsworth that I’d been accepted and would be called. Called up shortly. However, I wanted to be a radar operator and it said that there were no vacancies at the time and so they would wait and call me up later. However, I still got word again to say would I like to do another job? And so I thought right clerk SD [laughs] hoping it wouldn’t be anything to do with typing and joined up for that. Then I got word to go down to Innsworth with my little piece of brown paper and string to wrap my civilian clothes up to send home and did my square bashing. As I was the tallest one in the group I was made marker on the parade ground. And I got my injections and then of course we were posted. And I got posted up to Snaith which was Bomber Command and they had Halifaxes on at the time when I was there. And so I didn’t know what sort of job I would be doing but we were just, there were three of us. One girl came from Durham, one girl came from Chester le Street and we did shifts. So you did all sorts of different jobs. One was typing on rice paper to do for the beacons. And of course sweets were on ration you know so I had a little nibble at the, at the rice paper [laughs] which was very nice. And then we did shifts at that I don’t know if I mentioned that bit about the shifts but we did these eight hour shifts. So we weren’t, all the three of us weren’t all at the same time. And then I got the Windows in parcels which I used to go on the cycle around the perimeter to all the planes and pop a pack in for the airmen to drop out over Germany to disturb the air raid op. So that was another one of the jobs. Then I worked the diascope and they were being briefed, the airmen were being briefed for taking off. And of course the maps for the weather, and the maps for where they were going to bomb. And then we used to hand out like a briefcase that they had the maps and things in and aids to escape. Which included maybe a pipe with directions in for them and a silk handkerchief which that after the war you found a lot of people had these silk handkerchiefs with the maps on and they were all saying, ‘They’re very rare, you know. Very secretive.’ And so I used to laugh at that one. However, then one time I was in flying control and chalking down of course the planes going out and then the sad thing of waiting for them coming back. And in York, Yorkshire the weather was usually, when they were coming back very misty so you had the flying control officers out on the balcony doing the flares to get them landed. And then there was one night and I hadn’t been you know there for very long. I was real, I don’t know what they used to call them in those days. Sprogs or something they used to say. And I was sitting on the desk and waiting to see. You know waiting for them coming back. The planes. And then this airman came in with lots of scrambled egg on his cap and so he was talking to the officers and that, and of course I should have jumped up to attention. But not knowing too, too much what went on in the forces at the time and he came to me and said, you know, ‘Are you alright?’ And, ‘Nice to see you.’ And I said, ‘Well, the thing is I have to walk such a long way from the WAAF campsite to the main airfield and I haven’t got a bike. I can’t get a bike.’ [laughs] So, so he said, ‘Oh, I see.’ So the next morning a bike arrived for me. So they told me, ‘Do you know that was Bomber Harris that was visiting all the bomber stations that night.’ [laughs] So, so that was really my time with Bomber Command. And then about, it would be about a month after that we were told we were made redundant so the three of us would think, you know, what can we do? So I said, ‘Well, I wanted radar in the first place. I’m going to apply again.’ So I tried for it and we were all posted down to Yatesbury to do the training for that. So we got trained to do, what to do and look at the, not like they do now with the modern radar. See the planes. All we saw were electrodes running across the screen. And we got sent up to Scotland first. And I was up in Fraserburgh there and just looking for aircraft either going or coming. I was on the enemy and you just had to guess really how many aircraft you thought it was before they got to the [laughs] And then after a while I got sent down to Suffolk. Went to High Street there. I was always on what they called chain high which was the ones that, other radars were on the coast for anything coming in from the sea or anything. They were plotting that or tracing that I should say. And while at High Street I managed to trace a flying bomb coming in. V-1. And it was coming. They were saying, ‘[Not that] plot Bessie,’ and they put straight for the station. I didn’t even think oh, you know it might drop on us. If the engine stopped we’d had it. However, it went past and fell in the field behind the station so we were alright. And then used to do an SOS. Anybody. Pilots coming down in the sea. Funnily enough at the end of the war when I was waiting to be demobbed I met up with an airman who became my husband in the end. He had been in air sea rescue and apparently these plots that I was getting for them out at sea he was going out to rescue them and he could find them. So strange world really. But a funny thing to say that I really was happy. Enjoyed my life in the forces and it brought me up because I was an only child and living in Consett it wasn’t very much going on for me as far as I was concerned. So I had a, really had a lovely time.
[recording paused]
BS: So, after the flying bombs the V-2s rockets started coming over which were really nasty ones because we, you know didn’t know where they would be landing at all. And so we had special equipment made overnight with the little radar screen. A very small one. Not like the one that we’d been looking at before for the planes. And we were only sat for about a quarter of an hour because you had your face right up to the screen. And if you saw a flash on the screen we’d shout, ‘High Street,’ and then there would be a film taken and that would be developed and sent off to headquarters I suppose. And we only knew that it had been launched but we didn’t know where it would land. And of course at the time a lot of them landed in London. A lot of damage done. It was terrible. And I always, I had an aunt living in London and if I had a day’s leave I used to pop down to see her and she would say, ‘You know, they’re not doing anything at all Bessie.’ And I used to say, ‘Oh, they’re sure to be.’ Because I knew what I was doing and I couldn’t tell her. And I said, ‘They’re sure to be. You know, they’re not going to let them get away with that.’ However, at any rate this went on and eventually they found out where they were launching them from so they were going to bomb them. And I believe, I didn’t know at the time but I found out afterwards and then the, of course it was on a trolley thing that they were being launching off I found out afterwards and they just used to move it around. That was why it was taking a while to find out where they were really. But that wasn’t very nice. I didn’t like those. Weren’t. You know, really destructive. So that was another thing that we did. Thinking about that one I don’t think and funnily enough a mechanic they were Canadians that did the looking after the screens and the equipment and the transmitters and the receivers and one of the sons of the, one Canadian that was there got in touch with me after the war. So I’m still in touch with the son. Wanted to know if I knew his father which I did. Only by sight. And I think really that’s all my memories and very nice ones in one way. Very sad for other things that we had to do with bombing and things.
[recording paused]
BT: I remember while at Snaith it was 150 Squadron with Halifaxes.
RS: Bessie, is there anything else you’d like to talk about or tell me before we stop this interview?
BT: No. I think I’ve told a lot [laughs] Everybody will be tired of me.
RS: Well, can I just thank you again for taking the time and trouble to talk to us about this. It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.
BT: Right. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bessie Thomas
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rob Scott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-05-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AThomasB180518, PThomasB1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:15:28 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Aberdeenshire
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Description
An account of the resource
Bessie Thomas left school at the age of fourteen and worked at the Consett Iron Company working as a typist. At the age of eighteen at the time of Dunkirk she joined the Women's Auxiliary Air Force where she wanted to be a radio operator but there were no vacancies. She was posted to RAF Snaith as a clerk. Working eight hour shifts, one of the jobs she did was to cycle to the aircraft and drop off parcels of Window, and handing out the escape kits. Whilst on duty she mentioned to a senior officer that it was a long way from the WAAF camp to the main airfield, and that she hadn’t got a bicycle, and couldn’t get one. The next day a bicycle arrived for her. Later she was told that that officer was Arthur Harris who had visiting all the station. She applied to work in radar and was posted to Yatesbury for training. Whilst working at a radar station in Suffolk she traced a V1 flying bomb coming in straight towards the station, fortunately it fell into a field behind the station. When the V-2 rockets were being launched she could see the flash of the launch on her screen. When waiting for demob she met an airman who worked in air sea rescue who later became her husband.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
150 Squadron
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
love and romance
military service conditions
radar
RAF Fraserburgh
RAF High Street
RAF Innsworth
RAF Snaith
RAF Yatesbury
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Window
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/587/8856/PHowB1601.2.jpg
fda853d50fe72cf8e047663a7acfeb5e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/587/8856/AHowB161116.2.mp3
66e2d87ba36f0e32044199f5f130f194
Dublin Core
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Title
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How, Bernie
B How
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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How, B
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bernie How (1924 - 2021, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 199 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2016-11-16
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BH: You’ve parked in the yard have you?
DK: I’ve parked in the yard. Yeah. Is it ok there?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, 16th of November 2016, interviewing Mr Bernie How.
BH: No E. H O W.
DK: H O W. Yeah. Ok if I just leave that there. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still going. I’m not being rude. Alright. What I would like to ask you first of all Mr How, what were you doing immediately before the war?
BH: Well I was at school. I was born in ’24. So when war broke out I was fourteen.
DK: Right. And what, what made you then want to join the RAF? Was there anything that drove you?
BH: Well the next village, which was Freckenham, there’s a big house there. It was owned by a lady-in-waiting to the Queen so it’s name was Freckenham House and the RAF commandeered it, put air crew to sleep there rather than sleep on the station.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So they could get sleep.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Away from where possible bombing you know. And of course these air crew, I was born in a public house –
DK: Oh right.
BH: So we was the centre of activity with them. It was only five minutes’ walk from there, Freckenham House, to my dad’s pub.
DK: Right.
BH: And they used to flood the place you know. And of course they –
DK: They liked to drink did they?
BH: Well liked to drink. Liked to chat. The stories what they were going through at that time.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Some were like this, even then.
DK: Really. So what year would this have been then?
BH: This would have been 1940/41.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah
DK: Ok.
BH: Early part. They were flying Wellingtons mainly at the start and of course they’d come down and we was kids, we wanted to know all about what they were doing and you got chatting to them. You got to know them as Bob, Harry, Jim or whatever and I thought to myself I’d like to do that and that’s where it started. As I grow into the fifteen, sixteen, seventeen I volunteered for the RAF.
DK: So you were seventeen when you volunteered then?
BH: I was seventeen when I volunteered and I weren’t quite eighteen when I got my number. In other words I was in the air force before I was eighteen.
DK: Right. So where, where was your initial posting to then? Where was it?
BH: Well we went to Cardington where everybody –
DK: Yeah.
BH: Went then. And thousands upon thousands and thousands. Got your uniform and your number and then we was posted to, or I was, to Skegness to do what they called then square bashing.
DK: Right.
BH: In other words –
DK: Yeah.
BH: To learn a bit of marching and then eventually I found my way to Cosford on a flight mechanics course.
DK: Right.
BH: There was nothing from the RAF then to say I would eventually be air crew.
DK: Oh right.
BH: But during the flight mechanics course they come round, different sergeants or warrant officers or whatever they were, ‘Any volunteers here for flight engineer?’ So I volunteered ‘cos you got through the flight mechanics course and the next posting was RAF St Athan where you trained to be a flight engineer and that was it.
DK: So, what, what did the training as a flight engineer involve then?
BH: Well sitting around a desk and listening to a corporal or a sergeant or even someone higher telling you all about the aircraft you had chosen.
DK: Right.
BH: To fly. Inside and out to quite how many tanks were in each wing and how much they held and the general feeling of the, of the aircraft itself.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I went in for Stirlings. They come around before you’ve done your course. Would you like to fly Stirlings, Halifax or Lancasters or whatever? Well I volunteered for Stirlings so therefore everything was –
DK: Based on the Stirling.
BH: Yeah. On the course.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Course we eventually passed and I came to a place just the other side of Cambridge known as Wratting Common. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: A conversion unit. My crew had already been together two or three months flying two engine aircraft.
DK: Right.
BH: So they were posted to Wratting Common for a conversion unit to four.
DK: This is the heavy conversion unit.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: This is when I joined them.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So they’d known each other for several weeks or even months before they met me ‘cause they didn’t have engineers on a two engine aircraft.
DK: So what did you think when you first met your crew?
BH: Well they come, you just sit there and eventually the pilot come up to you and introduced himself and this kind of thing. And he said, ‘Would you like to be our flight engineer?’ ‘Oh’ he said, ‘What’s your name?’ I said, ‘Bernie.’ He said, ‘Would you like to be my flight engineer Bernie?’ ‘Yeah. That’s ok.’ And that was it. I joined them and we started flying at the conversion unit and eventually finished up at Lakenheath.
DK: Can you remember your pilot, the pilot’s name?
BH: Oh yeah. He was Canadian. We had three Canadians in the crew actually. His surname was Harker.
DK: Harker. Right.
BH: H A R K E R.
DK: Right.
BH: He was, at that time, a pilot officer.
DK: And he came from Canada.
BH: Yeah. Three of them come from Canada.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Him, the navigator and the rear gunner. Yeah. Two from London. Myself here and the mid upper gunner lived in Bury St Edmunds.
DK: Did you feel quite confident when you met your crew for the first time then?
BH: Yeah. I wasn’t very big as you can see but I was a confident little person you know. Yeah.
DK: And did, do you think they had confidence in you as well?
BH: They must have done. Whether they talked to someone before they approached me I don’t know. I never asked that question but I have a feeling they may have done.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So at the heavy conversion unit then the whole crew then trained there.
BH: That’s right.
DK: Initially.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And trained for a few weeks and eventually a posting come through. We was moved to Lakenheath and joined 199 Squadron.
DK: 199 Squadron.
BH: Yeah. And that’s where I started off.
DK: So all your operations then were on Stirlings or –
BH: No. We converted. What happened was after Lakenheath we moved because Lakenheath runway started breaking up.
DK: Right.
BH: So we had to move somewhere else and we went to North Creake in Norfolk.
DK: Right.
BH: And the other squadron what was there moved to, not far down the road to, still in Norfolk, I forget the name
DK: Ok.
BH: But they went there and we went to North Creake.
DK: So at this point had you flown any operations at all?
BH: Yes.
DK: Right.
BH: We flew about eight from Lakenheath.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: All on Stirlings.
BH: All on Stirlings yeah. Then we went to North Creake and continued there and one particular night we’d got mines on board, sea mines what we dropped in different coves in France or Germany or wherever. On take-off we crashed.
DK: This was at Lakenheath or –
BH: No. This was at North Creake.
DK: North Creake. Yeah.
BH: We crashed and nobody was hurt much. The pilot got knocked about a little bit.
DK: Oh.
BH: But we were just leaving the ground and the tyre burst and down it went bang bang bang and the next day the pilot went into hospital. Not for long. Had some minor injuries and after he come out we was posted to a place in Yorkshire to convert to Halifaxes. Riccall in Yorkshire.
DK: Was, was the problem with the Stirling‘s undercarriages at all? Is that why it -?
BH: Yes. Yeah.
DK: Did you actually come off the runway or did you -?
BH: No. We were still on the –
DK: Runway.
BH: We finished on the airfield, off the runway but -
DK: Yeah.
BH: We hadn’t left the ground hardly. May just about have. Very close, you know.
DK: Was that a bit worrying with the mines on board?
BH: Well that was the thought, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But we were all young. I was only nineteen I think.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You hadn’t got a lot of care in the world really.
DK: So how, as the aircraft has crashed how did you get out? Were you got the escape hatches or -?
BH: That’s right. Well the normal entrance to our, that’s the one I got out of. I think, I think the pilot scrambled out of his hatchway.
DK: Right.
BH: Because by that time we was not high. It was low on –
DK: Yeah.
BH: The undercarriage had gone and it wasn’t a big drop.
DK: So what was your thoughts then about the Stirling as an aircraft?
BH: I thought it was a beautiful aircraft. To fly especially. The problem was it couldn’t get the height.
DK: Right.
BH: I think its maximum was about thirteen or fourteen thousand where the Lancaster and Halifax could reach up to twenty thousand
DK: Did you feel a bit exposed at those low levels then?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But once up there. A beautiful aircraft to fly. Yeah. It was really.
DK: So on the Stirling then you were the flight engineer. What would your role be?
BH: Well mainly there was fourteen petrol tanks. Seven in each wing and mainly to control them as one, gradually making sure you didn’t lose the balance. In other words not too much left in there or not enough in there and that kind of thing. Control of the petrol. That was the main job but we also had to watch out for, you was also a stand-by gunner if anything happened to the gunners.
DK: Right.
BH: So you had sort of a little training before to fire a gun if necessary and -
DK: Did you, did you help the pilot, sorry, did you help the pilot at all or –
BH: No. That was mainly, in our case the bomb aimer.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: Really, when you think he hadn’t got a lot to do until you got where you was heading for so he used to mainly sit in the number two seat.
DK: Right. So you would be sitting behind them.
BH: Well we didn’t, as an engineer we hardly had a seat.
DK: Oh. Right.
BH: I think there was a lift up. What I remember you could just have a seat but mainly you was up and down looking at the engines and –
DK: So for the duration of the raid you were mostly standing up then.
BH: Walking or standing. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember any of the places you went to with the Stirling or -?
BH: Oh.
DK: Obviously some were mining operations.
BH: Yeah but yeah, the Frisian islands which was up North Germany.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Getting towards Russia.
DK: Yeah
BH: That was a dodgy one. As you’ve heard talk just recently of the navy having a convoy -
DK: Yeah.
BH: To Russia. Well that was mainly the same although we was up there and they was on water it was mainly a similar route to what they were taking.
DK: Oh right.
BH: And that was a, a dodgy one.
DK: Did you, did you fly on the Stirlings to any of the German towns and cities at all?
BH: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. In fact the last one was a small town and the name was Plauen or Plauen. It was a small town something like the size of Ipswich or Norwich. We bombed that and this is the last, last trip we had.
DK: Right.
BH: We didn’t know it but that was and what happened we dropped the bombs and then the normal procedure is to bank around outside the target and head for home. Well our skipper panicked. He must have panicked. He turned around and went straight back over the target again so we were meeting other aircraft what were coming in. How we didn’t hit one we’d never know. Nothing was said on the way home. We was dead quiet. No one hardly spoke. They knew –
DK: Yeah.
BH: What had happened and we arrived and debriefing and one thing, nothing was said at the time but the next day, about midday, we was finished flying.
DK: Right.
BH: I didn’t have any reason at all. We’d, mind you we’d done thirty five trips so we was getting, but it was decided that the pilot had panicked.
DK: Right.
BH: And he probably wasn’t fit to carry on so the whole crew was disbanded.
DK: So you did thirty five operations all together then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And how many of those were on Stirlings?
BH: Well, Halifaxes, I would think, at a guess this would be.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Stirlings would be something like twenty two or twenty three. Something like that. And the rest were Halifaxes. Yeah.
DK: So, so you, you were moved to, from the Stirlings then to the Halifaxes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you moved base as well then did you?
BH: No. We went up to Riccall.
DK: Riccall. Right.
BH: To convert to Halifaxes. That’s where the Halifaxes were.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Mainly in Yorkshire. Nearly all Halifaxes up there and we was up there about three or four weeks and converted and we come back to North Creake.
DK: Right.
BH: And North Creake was then –
DK: Halifaxes.
BH: Nearly all, gradually overtook.
DK: Yeah. And that was still 199 Squadron.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: So 199 Squadron converted from the Stirling.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: To the Halifaxes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were then flying the Halifax. What was your opinion of that aircraft?
BH: Well as I said a little while ago it could get much higher. I think it was lighter and it was probably a little bit more compact. Yeah. It was a lovely aircraft.
DK: Would you have a preference over the two types? The Stirling to the –
BH: I loved the Stirling and I think the whole crew did. Probably when we was taken off, I wouldn’t say it was tears but we were disappointed that we weren’t going to fly a Stirling anymore but the Halifax was good. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So as a flight engineer on the Halifax then what was your –
BH: Similar.
DK: Very similar.
BH: Similar.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you’re watching -
BH: Yeah.
DK: The petrol tanks -
DK: That was my main job. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The only other thing what may have went wrong? If the engines overheated well, we had to, what we called feathered them. In other words stop them.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Did that happen on any occasion? You had to -
BH: Oh yeah we came home on three engines.
DK: Yeah.
BH: A few times. Yeah.
DK: And what, what had caused the engine to be shut down? Was it damage or –
BH: Overheating or things like, or wasn’t powerful enough and the pilot, we called him the skipper, then would say, ‘Bernie something wrong with the inner starboard. It’s not pulling.’ Then we had a chat about it we called what they called feather it. That’s when the props -
DK: Yeah.
BH: And went back onto three. No doubt that was done hundreds of times in different aircrafts.
DK: Yeah. So when you got back after an operation then how did you feel then as you arrived back at base?
BH: Relieved. Yeah. We used to go in for debriefing and you had a little drop of rum. That was a recognised thing. Then you went back to the mess and had a meal. It could have been anything from midnight to 8 o’clock in the morning but the meal was there. They were waiting to cook you a meal.
DK: Yeah. And the debriefing then was that, was that very intense? Did they ask you lots of questions?
BH: Well they wanted to know what had happened. What you saw. Did you see any fighter aircraft? Did you? Anything really. Yeah.
DK: So was there any occasions when your aircraft was damaged by flak or night fighters?
BH: Yeah. We got hit once or twice. Not seriously. We did get one engine hit so we had to stop that one.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But not as bad as some of them. Some were really bad.
DK: So there was no occasion you were attacked by aircraft then.
BH: Well we was attacked by them but not, not intense. No. No. They were probably floating around seeing anything and if they happened to see a bomber they’d fire and hit it or miss it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And they’d move on to another one or, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah.
DK: Can you recall any of your targets then over, over Germany or was there -
BH: What, the towns?
DK: The actual towns, yeah.
BH: Well we went to this one. The last one -
DK: Yeah.
BH: Plauen. We went to Dortmund. Cologne. Just the normal, you know the ones.
DK: Was Berlin one at all?
BH: No. I didn’t go to Berlin.
DK: You didn’t. No. Ok.
BH: We didn’t go to Berlin. We didn’t go to, where was the other big one?
DK: Hamburg.
BH: Hamburg. We didn’t go to Hamburg. No. I lost a friend. He lived in the next village. He was a flight engineer too and he was stationed in Yorkshire on Halifaxes and he copped his lot after five trips, over Hamburg. And they haven’t found anything of him or his crew since.
DK: No.
BH: So he was blown to bits. That’s what we all assumed anyway.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So of your thirty five operations then what, what, did you do after that?
BH: Well we was all went different places. I think the three Canadians went to Canada back. Not together necessarily.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I finished up in air, air control. Flying control up in Inverness. A very small station.
DK: Right.
BH: There were very few aircraft and I worked there and stayed there until we finished with the RAF.
DK: And what year was that you came out the RAF then?
BH: Late, late ‘45. I’m not too certain of the month but late ‘45. Yeah.
DK: And what was, what was your career after, after the RAF then? What did you do?
BH: Well I left the building trade when I joined and I went back.
DK: Right. So looking back now after all these years how do you feel about your time in the RAF?
BH: Enjoyed it. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. We did really. Yeah. Because you met different people and that kind of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. We really enjoyed it. Yeah.
DK: Did you, were you able to stay in touch with your crew at all or -?
BH: Oh yes. We had numerous –
DK: Reunions.
BH: Reunions. Mainly in Leicester because Leicester was central or near central as you could get.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And we went there several years, once a year.
DK: The Canadians as well did they -?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Come over? Yeah.
BH: Well the whole squadron.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Squadron reunions. I mean everyone was invited but we started off, I think the first one was around about a hundred and forty, a hundred and fifty attended but of course that gradually went down. People was ill or died. The last one we attended was eighteen.
DK: Right.
BH: And the chappie who organised it decided that, you know, that was it. So he got up on the last one and told us that this was the last reunion. Yeah.
DK: The last reunion for 199 Squadron.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Are any of your crew still alive do you know?
BH: No. They’re all gone. Yeah.
DK: And can, can you name the whole crew still or -?
BH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Blimey. Who was, can you name the gunners?
BH: Yeah. Stan Pallant.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And Stanley Pallant was the upper, upper gunner.
DK: Yeah. The rear gunner?
BH: The rear gunner was a Canadian. I just forget his name now. Anyway, the bomb aimer was Alf Salter, come from London. The wireless operator was Harry Durrell. He come from London. The pilot’s name was Ernie Harker as I told you, come from Canada. The navigator was Johnny Russell, come from Canada. The mid upper gunner was Stanley Pallant, come from Bury St Edmunds and the rear gunner was, I know his name as well as my own but he was the odd one out. He, he didn’t socially mix with us. Very seldom. All the rest, at North Creake there was a pub off, just off the station. It was The Black Swan but it was always called the Mucky Duck so it always arranged for the Mucky Duck. I just can’t think of the rear gunner’s name.
DK: It will probably come to you.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So did you find that was important then to socialise with your crew and -?
BH: Oh yeah. The crews mostly were an item. They did probably talk to other members but you mixed mainly with your own crew nearly all the time.
DK: And, and was, there were officers in your crew as well.
BH: Oh yes.
DK: And was that an issue with officers and non-officers or did they -?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: They met. They socialised together.
BH: Oh yeah. Very much so yeah. You didn’t know them as officers. They was Harry or Alf or whatever, you know.
DK: And you think that was very important for the crew.
BH: Yes. Oh yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I’ve got a picture of the crew somewhere. Oh. That might interest you. That’s me there.
DK: Oh. Oh wow. This is –
BH: War pictures on the inside.
DK: [unclear] Oh right. Members of a Norfolk airfield. Key role in wartime operations. [pause] So this is about RAF North Creake then.
BH: Sorry?
DK: About RAF North Creake.
BH: North Creake. Yeah.
DK: So the control tower is still there then.
BH: Yeah. That’s now a bed and breakfast.
DK: Oh yes. Of course it is. Yes. I keep meaning to pay them a visit actually and stay there the night.
BH: Yeah. They’re in operation there. I know them well. Both of them, you know.
DK: Is this your actual aircraft that crashed then or was it –?
BH: That’s the one, yeah
DK: That’s the one.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So that was September 1944.
BH: Yeah. I’ve got a picture of it.
[pause]
BH: Well that’s my crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok. And that’s the Halifax behind it.
BH: That’s the Halifax. Yeah. [pause] Yes, interesting paper really.
DK: Yeah.
[pause]
BH: That’s the aircraft again.
DK: Oh wow. So that’s where it’s, it’s taken the wing off hasn’t it?
BH: Yeah. The wing come right off one of them. Yeah.
[pause]
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Well that’s all the Stirling. That’s all different.
DK: The Stirlings. Yeah.
BH: Just a book of Stirlings. Yeah.
DK: That’s actually the photos from there isn’t it?
BH: That’s the one again.
DK: So that’s the Short Stirling in action.
BH: That’s right yeah.
DK: So that’s the squadron signal publication. Aircraft number 96.
BH: These are just pictures taken at Lakenheath.
DK: Right.
BH: That’s taken at Wratting Common. That’s more.
DK: Are those, those are sea mines aren’t they?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were carrying two of those –
BH: That’s right.
DK: When you crashed.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Oh yeah. I see here it says sea mines on the back.
BH: That’s the aircraft again. Yeah. We’ve got different bits of paper. That’s the crew, the whole crew of –
DK: 199 Squadron.
BH: You’ll find us down there somewhere.
DK: So this is all the air crew that served with 199 at some time.
BH: At that time.
DK: At some point. At that time. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: There you are. Yeah.
BH: That’s North Creake.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I hadn’t had that long actually.
DK: I must pay a visit at some point.
BH: Yeah. Bed and breakfast. They’ve got the whole control tower. I think they’ve got four bedrooms. Yeah.
DK: So that’s the crew there then. So that’s. Where are they?
BH: That’s the crew. Yeah.
DK: So if I, just for the recording here so this is, that’s Harker there is it?
BH: The one with the hat on yeah.
DK: That’s Harker. So from left to right.
BH: Stanley Pallant.
DK: Stanley Pallant.
BH: Harry Durrell from London.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Myself. That’s the one I just can’t think of his –
DK: Right.
BH: That would be on here.
DK: Is he, is he listed on there?
BH: Yeah. Sewell.
DK: Sewell. So kneeling down there is Sewell.
BH: Then –
DK: Harker and then –
BH: Bomb aimer. Alf Salter
DK: Alf Salter, right.
BH: And Johnny Russell. The Canadian navigator.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And I noticed here just in the article it mentions about, so you flew on Operation Overlord.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So what was that like then? Did you realise what was happening when you –
BH: Oh yes.
DK: Went on operation? They did –
BH: Briefed.
DK: So at the briefing they told you that was –
BH: Oh Yeah.
DK: That was D-Day.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So what was your role then on D-Day?
BH: Well it was a similar thing. We patrolled over the water, you know, the Channel, dropping things to disrupt their, the German navigator or whatever.
DK: Their radar.
BH: Radar. Yeah.
DK: So what was it you were dropping then? Was it Window?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Kind of. Yeah.
DK: So you were dropping Window then to disrupt the –
BH: We were just hoping that would distract them. It probably did. Yeah.
DK: So can you remember how long you were in the air for over Normandy doing this?
BH: Well the trip itself from the station, four to five hours. So we were probably hovering around there for three hours anyway. Yeah.
DK: And did you see any of the ships then?
BH: You could see about - we were flying around about five thousand I think. You could see action. Yeah.
DK: So you could see the invasion fleet.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And was the sky quite crowded then with aircraft.
BH: Oh yes. Yeah. All sorts, yeah.
DK: So at the briefing then and they told you this is, this is D-day what was your feelings then?
BH: Well we probably shook for a minute or two you know. Mind you I think the whole country knew it was coming.
DK: Right.
BH: Probably the people living near where they left from. They knew more than lots of people knew.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And, and so you got back from the D-Day operation. How did you feel then about the –?
BH: Well then we heard the story in the papers and different things. What had happened?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your operations then were all in 1944 were they or -?
BH: No.
DK: ’43. ’44.
BH: Mostly I think, I don’t think, early ‘44 and we mainly went into ‘45 as well.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your thirty fifth operation was –
BH: Yeah.
DK: Was in 1945 then. And that’s when you were taken off operations.
BH: Yeah. It was very sudden. You know we went to bed that night. No knowledge of finishing.
DK: Right.
BH: The next day we was on the train to Yorkshire.
DK: How did you feel then knowing you didn’t have to do any more operations?
BH: Well we didn’t know exactly then but we had a good idea that was it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That we wouldn’t be recalled and that kind of thing and we went up to that big place in Yorkshire near Darlington. There’s army there, the navy and air force. I forget the station name now. We all went there and that’s where we split up. Some went that way and some went that way and so on and as I say I went to Inverness.
DK: Yeah. Ok. I’ll, I’ll stop that there.
[machine paused]
DK: I’ll just put that back on. I noticed here 199 Squadron was part of 100 Group.
BH: Yes.
DK: So what was special about 100 Group?
BH: I don’t really know. Whether was the area where, like around here was all 3 Group. Mildenhall was headquarters for 3 Group. In Yorkshire it were 4 Group.
DK: Yeah.
BH: What was it in Lincoln? 5.
DK: 5.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 5 and 1. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So 100 Group. Did they do anything out of the ordinary? Or -?
BH: Well not really. We dropped mines and bombs and we also did Window which is where you went and dropped the Window in front of the main force. As they come behind you you dropped all this stuff to divert the Germans again.
DK: Yeah.
BH: More or less what happened on D-Day. Similar thing.
DK: To disrupt the German radar.
BH: Well that’s –
DK: Yeah.
BH: That was the idea.
DK: The idea. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Probably did work but probably not all the time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bernie How
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHowB161116, PHowB1601
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:34:17 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie How was 14 when war was declared and remembers aircrew socialising at his father's pub. He volunteered for the RAF at 17 and trained as a flight engineer on Stirlings. He describes a crash on take-off in a Stirling. He completed 35 operations, initially on Stirlings and later on Halifaxes flying from RAF North Creake with 199 Squadron. His operations included mine laying, bombing over Germany and patrols over the Channel dropping Window as part of the Normandy campaign. After their pilot was thought to have panicked during an operation, he and his crew were suddenly taken off operations. He then served in air control prior to demobilisation in 1945. He discusses his crew and how they kept in touch, attending reunions for many years.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Plauen
Wales--Glamorgan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
199 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Lakenheath
RAF North Creake
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
RAF Wratting Common
Stirling
take-off crash
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/268/3419/PHarrisB1604.1.jpg
4d93a86a74881c8fecbe08584fd4d043
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/268/3419/AHarrisB160626.1.mp3
b2fdeeb3d2a420c4b51393c6b2ae8f14
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harris, Bernard
Bernie Harris
B Harris
Barnard Harris
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Bernard 'Bernie' Harris (b 1925 - 2017, 1863168 Royal Air Force) an air gunner who served at the end of the war on 622 Squadron flying Lancaster on Operation Manna. In addition a photograph of four trainees.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bernie Harris and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-09
2016-06-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, B
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TO: Ok, good morning, good afternoon or good evening, whatever
BH: That’s a quick day, yeah [laughs]
TO: Whatever the case may be.
BH: Yeah.
TO: We’re recording, we’re filming this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. The gentleman I’m, that I’m interviewing is Mr. Bernie Harris. My name is Tomas Ozel and we are recording this interview on the 26th of June 2016. Could you please tell me what year you were born in?
BH: What?
TO: What year were you born?
BH: 1925.
TO: And were you interested in aircraft as a child? Were you interested in aircraft as a child?
BH: Oh yes, yeah. Yeah, my father was in Royal Flying Corps, he passed it on. But always interested in aircraft, anyway.
TO: Did you collect model planes?
BH: Yeah. Spitfires, Defiants, Lancasters, yeah. Defiant were made with Balsa wood. These days they are more sophisticated but it was made with Balsa wood and coverings. They even put a little turret on top of the Defiant as it was then fighter aircraft with a turret for night fighters.
TO: And did your father ever talk about his experience in the Flying Corps? Did your father ever tell you about his time in the Flying Corps?
BH: Not very often, no. He kept it, like most air crews today I think. He didn’t talk about it much. Nor do air crew today, it’s only in the recent years where there’s not many of us left now become more interested but it’s taken 60, 70 years to recognize Bomber Command in the RAF.
TO: And what was your first job?
BH: My first job was to be apprenticed to tool making and I lived in Forest Gate in East London and I was apprentice to an engineering company in Islington and I was apprenticed to become a tool maker. But after six months, on a drill, right, I thought I was been taken advantage of, so I left and went off somewhere else and took a couple jobs [unclear] and finally I volunteered at sixteen and a half. In a nearby recruiting place, which is still there, Romford in Essex and in between I had a job in a shop one thing and the other. My father was a tailor and he wanted to teach me and he said, right, you start right from the bottom and you sweep the floor, and I said, ‘no, I don’t’, and that was the end of that [laughs] ‘Til finally I got myself in a job in a shop, which wasn’t bad, it was a tailor’s shop, actually, and I said, I volunteered with sixteen and a half and eventually, father had to sign for me really, I can still remember, father sitting at a table with a form in front of him, my mother leaning over his shoulder saying you’re not going to sign that are you? And he said, ‘if he wants to go, he goes’ and he signed and that was that. And then from on I went to Carding, Cardington [unclear] a test station you probably know about, and if you passed that in three days you were good and you came out there and you were graded PNB, pilot, navigator or bomb aimer and just waited for the call. And it was just before my eighteenth birthday that I got the call and that was that. I was in.
TO: Do you remember what medical tests they gave you?
BH: A1.
TO: And do you remember the things that they tested?
BH: The what test?
TO: The thing that they tested like your eyesight
BH: Oh yeah, everything. If you came out of there Cardington you knew that you were sane and you knew you were a hundred percent fit. No problem. 20/20 vision, hearing, everything, you were, I mean aircrew were the fittest of the lot I think. Examinations of course not only medical, physical, eyesight, hearing, mathematics, it was a three-day course with, when it was completed you got the badge RAFVR and that was that.
TO: And in the 1930s did you hear about Hitler’s aggression in Europe?
BH: In the 1930s I was aware of fascism in this country, I was eleven and also the Spanish civil war, I remember the placards with planes, with swastikas on them dropping bombs and flames in their placards. I’m Jewish, my, and even then I thought, you know, things are not so good. I knew what was going on in Germany through the [unclear] and but not to the extent about concentration camps or anything like that but I was aware of Moseley and his mob, saw them marching, you know, one thing and the other and also the Brady Street march in which he was stopped, yeah, I was aware. And all the more reason to get in the fight.
TO: And what did you think of Chamberlain? What do you think of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler?
BH: What?
TO: What do you think of Chamberlain and his plan of appeasing Hitler?
BH: I don’t know really. But can you say that again?
TO: What do you think of Chamberlain when he signed the Munich Agreement with Hitler?
BH: Oh Chamberlain?
TO: Yeah.
BH: Well, I wasn’t politically motivated at that age but it, I mean, from listening to the parents and other people they thought, maybe he’s avoided a war, but as it turned out he didn’t, so. So, my opinion of him was neutral. Well, I wasn’t politically aware. As it turned out, he was wrong.
TO: And do you remember the preparations that were being made for the war?
BH: Ah yeah, very well because I was fourteen and I’d left school but I got, I had, I’ve two sisters and a brother, who are younger than me, and my mother for some reason said, ‘stop work, I’m getting you evacuated’. And we were all evacuated to Chelmsford and guess what? Right next to the Marconi radio factory right, prime spot, yeah, I remember the guys being, territorial was being called up, preparations for the black out, the first air raid siren and I remember that vividly, yeah, I suppose it was more of a thrill than anything else, [unclear] something different, right? Yeah, I remember that vividly, but it wasn’t long before I got the bus and came back home, used to be an eastern national bus, used to go from Bow to Chelmsford and from Chelmsford back to Bow, I lived in Forest Gate was on the route so that was that back home. Eventually my mother took my young, my younger brother, sister, and two sisters to Wells, she evacuated to them there. And I was left at home with my father.
TO: Were you surprised when the war started?
BH: No, not really. I did read, at that age I read newspapers and I wasn’t surprised, I don’t think I was even fearful in that sense. More of an adventure, I think.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war started?
BH: September the 3rd, 1939. No, I don’t actually remember what I was doing then but I remember the first day of the Blitz, the day Blitz vividly because my brother and I, we went to the local cinema called the Coronation in Manor Park and they were showing Gone with the Wind. And during the course, that the raid started and all the lights went up, they said, ‘you all [unclear] to leave if you want but you can go back, if you want to stay, go back under the balcony which is safer’ so we decided to do that. When we came out there was rubble everywhere and in the distance was my father saying where you two so-and-so’s have been, we’ve been looking for you. And I remember that was the first day of the Blitz. But September the 3rd, I can’t really remember was it, I think was a nondescript day.
TO: Do you remember Chamberlain’s speech?
BH: Yeah, ‘cause there was no television in those days. There was television, but only for the few that could afford it. But as soon as war had broke out the television stopped, anyway, yeah, peace in our time. There is a little piece of this, and a little piece of that, and I’ll have the whole lot.
TO: And you remember the speech where Chamberlain announced that we’d declared war?
BH: Yeah, that was on the radio, there was sort of quietness everywhere, everything seemed to have gone quiet.
TO: Did you have any relatives who were in the armed forces?
BH: Yeah, I’d two cousins. Actually he was, the first into Paris with De Gaulle and another one, he was a Spitfire pilot and finished up ferrying aircraft. My brother went in as a boy, because he’s two years younger than me, he is dead now unfortunately and he was no higher than this and because I went in he went and volunteered as a boy and he also volunteered down at Romford, anyway he went off, my father realised what he’d done, chased after him, when he got to Romford he asked what, oh, your son has just gone to Romford Station and he’s off to Abedon, Aberothy something or it’ll come to me in a minute and the tale is that he got to Waterloo and he said, went up to a military policeman and said, ‘we are so sorry’, he said, ‘why have you joined his Majesty’s service?’ He said, ‘yes’, he said, ‘well, come with me so’. And that was that, so my brother was in the service as well but he wasn’t involved in the war, he was a boy entry and that was that.
TO: Did they allow boys then? Did they allow boys in in certain roles?
BH: Yes, he was trained in [Reemey ?] and what killed him off was that he was finished up after the war, going to the hospitals repairing x-ray sets, and they didn’t do him any good at all. They didn’t have the facilities to have the protection in those days as they have now, so that unfortunately killed him.
TO: And did you have an air raid shelter at your house?
BH: Yeah, Anderson, the Anderson in the garden. There was a nightly call.
TO: [unclear] camera back so.
BH: You’re alright?
TO: Yeah, just checking the shutter. Yeah, it’s fine. Sorry about that. And did you consider joining the army at all?
BH: I did the air force.
TO: What appealed to you about the air force over the other services?
BH: Well, you go to the air force, you can fly. And then again, in those days, it was the only force that get in touch with the enemy. Especially after Dunkirk.
TO: And how did you feel when you heard about the Dunkirk evacuation?
BH: Pardon what?
TO: The Dunkirk evacuation. How did you feel when it happened?
BH: I can’t really explain really. It’s, it’s a mixture of excitement, in one thing or the other, and getting away from the humdrum.
TO: And were you ever worried that Germany would win?
BH: Never doubted it. Never doubted it.
TO: Can you tell me a bit about what you remember from the phoney war?
BH: The phoney war? Well, the phoney war was [emphasis] phoney. Everything was quiet, everybody going on their normal business. The only difference was the blackout. But, no, everybody went about their normal business. The phoney war stopped of course with the episode of Dunkirk and then the day bombing and then into night bombing by the Nazis, but the phoney war was phoney. Everybody went about their normal business.
TO: And what kind of rations did you have when the war, what kind of rations did you have when the war started?
BH: I really don’t know in a sense because I wasn’t politicised in any sense, I knew we had to fight Germany and I wasn’t really fearful or anything like that at all. My parents were worried ‘cause they knew what could happen that’s why I suppose being a bit thick it didn’t worry me but I mean fourteen year old what do you know? Yeah, but I know the phoney war and it was phoney, as I say, until after Dunkirk.
TO: And there were people, were your parents worried that Hitler would invade? Were you worried that Hitler would invade?
BH: I wasn’t worried, wasn’t worried at all, but I knew if they did and I knew their reputation as far as Jewish people concerned, right, where could you go? Into the hills, Wales, Scotland or anywhere like that? ‘Cause there was nowhere else to go. So we were in it, and fight. That’s it.
TO: And do you remember what kind of food you had during the war?
BH: What kind of what?
TO: Food you had, what kind of food you had during the war?
BH: Food?
TO: Yes.
BH: Well, my mother was the innovative and it was mostly vegetable stuff and little bits of chicken, ration meat and things like that, but she probably went without herself, lots of vegetable soups, vegetables, home grown vegetables, she kept chickens for eggs and even when we had visitors she found something, you know, to make a meal with, so nothing elaborate, I mean, cakes, we had home-made cakes, chocolate was, couldn’t get hold of chocolate, things like that. Meat of course was rationed and the ration books, [unclear] but she made do, like most women and housewives in those days they made do. Comes the occasion, comes the person.
TO: And what did you think of Churchill?
BH: Brilliant, could do with him again. I wish he would be reincarnated. Man of the moment. Didn’t think much of him after the war, he’d become a real Tory after the war but then again after the war there’s a great movement for Labour. People have had enough, I mean, people were returning from the forces so right, we’re not lackeys anymore, might be on better things. So, his speech as far as communism is concerned killed him politically but as a war leader second to none.
TO: Did you listen to his speeches much?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: What in particular did you like about him as a war leader? What, what, what in particular did you like about him as a war leader?
BH: He hated Germans.
TO: You already told me about the first day of the Blitz. Do you remember, are there any other days of the Blitz that stand out to you particularly?
BH: Yes, as I explained, the first day of the Blitz.
TO: Yeah, yeah.
BH: We were in the cinema, me and my brother. And when we came out, there was rubble all over the place, houses had been knocked down, something, so that was the first day of the Blitz.
TO: Do you remember other days of the Blitz?
BH: No, we just took it in our stride, went to work as normal. We used to get on the tram at seven o’clock in the morning to get to this so-called apprenticeship by eight o’clock. I was fourteen, I was working five and a half days a week, guess how much for?
TO: I don’t know.
BH: In out of thirty seven and a half p a week. I can remember my first wage packet bringing it home, and my mother pinned it on the curtain, it was [file missing] six pence for five and a half days work. No allowances for my age, so thirty seven and half p in today’s terms.
TO: How did the people behave during the Blitz would you say?
BH: All as one, helped one another, didn’t see any general fear whatsoever, I mean the patriotism was great. People helped one another. I remember when the night bombing started at five o’clock every day, people used to pack up stuff and we used to go to a communal bomb shelter, just across where we used to live and then eventually we want back to the Anderson but the first, pack up, be there by five o’clock, come out by six o’clock next morning amongst the rubble, hopefully your house was still intact.
TO: Did you ever see anyone behave badly during the Blitz?
BH: No, no, no, not at all.
TO: Was there a lot of bomb damage near where you lived?
BH: Yes, because the Forest Gate is not far from the docks and the first day of the Blitz was the whole dock area because the pool of London was the great entry into Great Britain, England and all the shipping used to go in there anyway. Most of the bombing in the surrounding areas but when they started bombing civilians that was another matter.
TO: And did you ever watch any of the dogfights that were going on, did ever you watch any of the dogfights that were going on?
BH: Yes we used to watch them coming over because we, actually we knew when raids were about because the balloons used to go off and they stationed all around us, there is a place called Wanstead Flats not far behind us where ack-ack guns were on and the, the balloons used to go up, to deter low flying, but the whole mixture of things really but I remember when, they brought in, like rocket fire, the ack-ack and everybody cheered because it used to be a one-off shell [mocks the sounds of gunfire] and then they brought in these, like rockets with massive, right, and everybody stood and cheered, at last we’re doing something, rather than the old pop-pop.
TO: Could you hear the anti-aircraft guns firing?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah. In Forest Gate as I say about two miles behind us an area called Wanstead Flats which is part of the Green Belt and the ack-ack were on there.
TO: Did it, did it feel encouraging to know that the German bombers were being fired at?
BH: Oh, absolutely, yeah. But don’t forget the Luftwaffe was really indiscriminate, I mean, even today you know, people say about Dresden, but what about Coventry, Rotterdam, every city in the UK, Bristol, Plymouth, London, they didn’t care.
TO: And do you think France let Britain down in the war? Do you think France let Britain down?
BH: Well the trouble with France, they had the Maginot Line, didn’t they, and it was facing the wrong way, so that was a big mistake. Vichy France of course was fascist, so, as an ally, mediocre but not impressed with them.
TO: And so, when exactly, what year of the war did you join the RAF?
BH: 1943. I went in April 1943, just before my eighteenth birthday.
TO: And how did you come to be a rear gunner?
BH: Ah, as I said, I went in Cardington and came out as PNB graded, so, I, when I went, was called to ITW, Initial Training Wing, which was in Newquay and that’s a three month’s course which in peacetime is three years, so it’s condensed from three years, I did there for three months and from there I was sent to Elementary Flying Training School in Derby, which [unclear] factories on it now in a place called Burnaston. Unfortunately I had a Tiger Moth I was as others on Tiger Moths for a while and the weather was so bad I couldn’t get my flying hours in so to go solo but they didn’t determine the fact that so from there we were sent to Heaton Park. Now Heaton Park was a holding centre for aircrew to go to the Empire, you’ve heard about this, to the Empire Training Scheme and ‘cause it was near the Manchester ship canal as well. So we were stuck there for a while and we waited and waited and three of us went to the CO and said, ‘you know, what’s the problem?’ In a nice way. We said ‘there’s a hold up and we don’t know when you’ll be going’ so we said ‘what’s the quickest way getting to the war?’ He said, ‘go as gunners’, so we did. Others went, sent, who decided to remuster in the navy and that’s how I’ve become a gunner. So you become a rear gunner is because when you go to OTU, Operational Training Wing, which was Hixon, a place called Hixon in Staffordshire, which is on Wellingtons, then you crew up together and then you all meet up, either Australian pilots, Pete and we all met up and the other guy, there was the other gunner, he said, ‘I don’t want to be a rear gunner’, so I said ‘Okay, I’ll do it, it’s fine’, that was it.
TO: And could you have been a pilot? Could you have become a pilot?
BH: I could’ve, well if I’d stayed on, I’d have become a pilot, I’ve gone overseas but I’d have missed the war. As another guy did say, I met him later on, but he got his wings but he missed the war. That wasn’t the purpose, the purpose was to go and kill Germans.
TO: And so what was the first bomber that you flew in on as a rear gunner?
BH: Well there again, we were, as a crew, we go to, from Wellingtons, we’re six of us, go to a heavy conversion unit onto Lancasters, which is a place called Woolfox Lodge between Stamford and Grantham and you pick up a flight engineer. And the flight engineer, he’d got his wings but they didn’t want him as a pilot so they made them flight engineers. And then we, with various things of getting to know your Lancaster and one thing and the other, we didn’t get to the squadron till late which was in Mildenhall and then we was, we were sent on to various things, they put us on some secretive work and even in OTU the other guys would tell you we used to go out on Window dropping, a diversion raids, save the main forces going that way, we would go that way to get the Luftwaffe up in the air of the pundits, drop the Window, metal strips, as if the big force come, then come back and the other force would go through. So [unclear] they put us on secret [unclear] and testing one thing and the other, finally got onto Operation Manna. So that was my only operational, real operational side. Which was disappointing in a way. But we had to obey orders, didn’t we?
TO: And did you ever wish that you were anything other than a gunner?
BH: Well, as I say, I went as a gunner because I wanted to get in the war but my aim was become a pilot or navigator or bomb aimer, the PNB, that was my aim. But as circumstances would show, as I said, I missed the war, probably gone to Australia, to Canada, Texas or South Africa. But as it happens, when the war ended, we were earmarked to go to California as a crew to convert onto Liberators for the Far East but the [unclear] said, no we want the boys to go home. So the whole crew was split up and that was in August 1945.
TO: And what did your relatives think of you being in the Air Force?
BH: Oh, quite proud in a way. My mother was concerned ‘cause I remember going home with all my kit ‘cause we’d be going from one station to another and she spotted my helmet, oxygen mask to the top so she had a little cry but they were concerned, rightly so, I suppose really.
TO: And how did you feel when you first heard that the RAF had started bombing Germany?
BH: Elated. Couldn’t get in there quick enough to help them do it.
TO: How long did your training last in total?
BH: Our training, well the training started right from 1943 right through to ‘45. I think I joined the 62 Squadron in March ’45 as I said, they sent us on various things and one thing and the other.
TO: And were you on board Lancaster bombers?
BH: Yes.
TO: What were the conditions like on board the Lancaster?
BH: Better than the Wellington, actually I flew Tiger Moths, Harfords, Wellingtons, Lancaster and of course, yeah, the Tiger Moth, which is the nicest plane I’ve ever been in, or ever flew in. There there was if you were coming down the landing, the instructor used to say, watch the grass is grass then cut back [unclear] head over the side watching, but that was flying, that’s different, that only got you into next grade but it wasn’t pleasant especially when you were flying at height when icicles were forming on your oxygen mask, you had to break them off, we had the heating closing as well.
TO: Was it colder in the gun positions than in the main cockpit?
BH: Very tight, conditions were very, in the turret, the rear turret, cramped, very cramped, but then, you know, you’re in it, you’re in it, and that was it.
TO: Did you feel glad when you started going on missions over Germany?
BH: I didn’t really go on missions over Germany. They got us on all the experimental and secret stuff and then finally got onto Operation Manna, which we dropped food, have you heard of it? Obviously, so no need to go into that.
TO: Well, No, actually, if you can explain it but.
BH: We dropped, it’s three hundred feet, the old German airfield Epinburgh and after that we formed the Manna Association. Which I eventually finished up as secretary and treasurer. Now of about forty, forty five of us, is six left now.
TO: And, did you ever, did you have to fire the guns in training?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. And tested the guns coming over to Holland over the North Sea, test them just in case but yeah, we had to fire drogues. In fact when I was, when the war was over I was sent to Italy and I joined the Centododici Squadron, this is 112, Sharks Squadron, they had sharks under the cowling and I used to fly with the air craft towing a drogue so they could fire at it, hoping that they would fire at the drogue and not at me, so, so that was alright but a bit of fun, but can I tell you an interesting story though? In 1945 the squadron was broken down, broken up and everybody went their different ways and were all made redundant and that was in ’45. So 36 years later this guy turned out to be a great friend with it, is Ted Livingstone and another guy, Phil Irvin, decided to put an advert in all, like the fly, all the journals for aircrew who would be interested in going to see the dropping sites in Holland? It cost a hundred pounds and get the coach from Graves End. So I said to my wife at the time, would you like to do it? Yeah. So, put my name down for it. Now I had my own business in those days and I’d been to an exhibition and I got home rather late, my wife said to me, you had a phone call, I think it’s the guy that’s organizing the trip to Holland. So I said, yeah, what’s his name? She said, Hallem. I said, Arthur Hallem? My own navigator. Anyway left his phone call and of course got on to him, chatted and he was going, right, with his wife. And we chatted, and during the course of the conversation, I said, he was articled clerk, I said, did you carry on with your accountancy? He did, yes, I am now the director of Wickbrits pension fund and I said, in Chiswell Street? And when I said in Chiswell Street, my wife said, Arthur Hallem? I’ve been dealing with him for years in the Abbey National round the corner in City Road what do you think of that?
TO: When you fired the guns, did it leave a smell of cordite in the air?
BH: Pardon?
TO: When you fired the guns, did it leave a smell of cordite in the air?
BH: Yeah. ‘Cause your shells used to drop off the side, you spew out anyway. But also in the training for gunnery you had to put a gun together blindfolded. I don’t know if any of the guys have told you that, yeah, during the training, you had to be blindfolded and then put the guns together, in case you had a stoppage or something like that while you’re out flying so it’s dark, it’s black, can’t put a light on, so you had to do in the darkness, take the bridgehead out, clear it, put it back in.
TO: Do you think it was hard to learn that?
BH: To be honest no and I’m not being snobbish in any way when a few of us came from our previous training, the guys up in Morpeth it was, the instructors had a bet that we [unclear] we would beat everybody and we did. Not because it’s snobbish or anything but we knew our way around so as I said [unclear] I’m not degrading the other guys in any way whatsoever but anyway they had a bet and they won.
TO: And what was your, I think I’ve already asked you this but what was your, was the Tiger Moth your favourite aircraft to fly in? What was your favourite aircraft to fly in?
BH: Tiger Moth, oh yeah.
TO: And were there any planes you flew in that were, that weren’t very reliable?
BH: There was what?
TO: Were all the planes that you flew in reliable?
BH: Yeah, expect the Wellington. ‘Cause Wellington was, the OTU operational training unit and we used to have in it Gee for navigation and I used to pop out and help the navigator, Arthur used to, I used to do the Gee and everything else, and we lost the Gee, and we got lost and we were in cloud and the aircraft started to vibrate violently so we had a discussion whether we should pop out or not, ‘cause we didn’t know where we were, anyway decided to leave and when we got back to base we went to the hangar, the chief engineer said, said to us, you had one minute before the port engine blew up. So we were rather lucky. So the whole aircraft was vibrating.
TO: So, did you have to bale out then?
BH: No, we did considered it but we didn’t know where we were, so we are sticking out, so eventually the weather cleared and we got down and it was a place called Gamston,’cause we’ve been moved there from Hixon and the chief engineer when we went to the hangar the next morning to see what’s the problem he said you had one minute before that engine blew up, in his opinion. So we considered it a lucky escape.
TO: Did Wellington engines have a reputation for doing that?
BH: Yeah, they were Bristol radials but as a [file missing] Merlin [unclear] different proposition altogether but of all end like anybody else the Lancaster was the favourite aircraft.
TO: Were the guns different on as Lancaster to another aircraft?
BH: No, 303s, the mid upper had two guns, is it alright?
TO: Yes
BH: The mid upper had two guns, as you know, the rear turret had four, later in they brought in 2.5s because the 303 only had a range. And the Luftwaffe knew it, if they stood off, right, the 303 were going then would start dropping, didn’t have the range until they bought the .5 which the Americans had, which was a different thing altogether and that’s why they introduced corkscrew, have you heard about the corkscrew? Yeah, that was violent.
TO: Did you have to practice the corkscrew?
BH: Yeah. That’s one of the things that we had to do on 622, they brought us in a new sight, gun sight, and it was like a square like that oblong, and there would be crystals and you had to recognize the aircraft like Messerschmitt and you set that in and if you got the aircraft in those crystals you couldn’t miss so we had to do an exercise with a mark 8 Spitfire and he did his attack and I got a hundred percent hits by then. My mid upper he didn’t want to do it so I did his and he got ninety-nine percent and the whole thing went to Air Ministry but we also did a corkscrew now a corkscrew, I don’t know if they told, how we get into it and why, I mean you just, an attacking aircraft who lay off you and he put your speed in and if he is on the starboard side which is [pause] to the right of the aircraft, right, so we called our pilot Pete, the corkscrew starboard so he’s got his wheel like that ready and as the aircraft comes in, he’s got to come in like that, and he’s got to come under the back he said, corkscrew go and he goes [mimics the noise of incoming aircraft] down like that and up again and then down again and his stomach comes up here, goes down there, good fun really.
TO: Was anyone aboard the plane actually sick, by those manoeuvres?
BH: No. Fortunately.
TO: And do you think the guns of a Lancaster would have been enough to take down a fighter?
BH: Oh yeah, if they got in range, as I say, the 303, as the other guys will tell you, the only, limited in range, they would drop down and the Luftwaffe knew that.
TO: And were people more afraid of night fighters than anti-aircraft fire?
BH: Mh?
TO: Were people more afraid of night fighters than anti-aircraft fire?
BH: I don’t think so but towards the end of the war they did have intruders. I don’t know if you were told about that. The Focke Wulf 190 used to follow aircraft back and as soon as you got in landing position, what they called funnel, there you’re lined up, your undercarriage is down, your flaps are down and you are more air worthy, you’re more or less, your air speed is down and it happened to where I was in Woolfox Lodge one of guys got shot down because they used to come in, follow the aircraft and while you’re in that position they were vulnerable and shoot them down. In fact to this day they haven’t found the air gunner, the rear gunner, so we used to get the signal to be sent out over the North Sea, Irish Sea, all clear but then that was towards the end of the war and it claimed quite a few victims, so.
TO: As a, sorry, as a rear gunner, were you in the most vulnerable position? As a gunner, were you in the most vulnerable position?
BH: Yes. Because I explain the line of attack would be, they would lay off, turn in and come round like that and then
TO: Come.
BH: Come to the rear so the rear gunner was really the first form of defence and the first to receive attack. As soon as they introduced these Dorniers with guns they called firing from underneath, I don’t know if you were told about that, right, they had these Dorniers and they were equipped with a gun who used to get under the aircraft and fire upwards, couldn’t see them until you exploded.
TO: And what kind of bombs would a Lancaster carry?
BH: Oh, the big ones. Yeah, sit [?] incendiaries, thousand pounders. And also the big one. It takes up the whole of the bomb bay.
TO: And what did you think of RAF leaders, like Arthur Harris?
BH: If anybody started on me outside, I’ll tell my uncle of you. But he’s brilliant and he liked his aircrew. He went to South Africa because he was contemptuous of the government for not demobbing the aircrew, made us all redundant. And that’s a story in itself, stupid. As I say, when the squadron broke up, we made redundant, send up to a place called Burn, up in Yorkshire, an old ex airfield here and are you ok for time?
TO: I’m fine. I’m just checking there be, yeah, I’m just checking the [unclear].
BH: And I get there, masses of ex aircrew walking about doing nothing and what it was it went there before a panel and you had three choices of a trade: radar wireless, wireless mechanic, driver or radar operator. So, and you got all ex aircrew sitting back, what do you want to do Bernie? Sort of thing. I said, ‘well, I’ll go as a radar wireless mechanic’, ‘nah, you don’t want to go, it’s a year’s course, you will be out by then’, so then, ‘I’ll learn to drive’, ‘No, no one is gonna teach you to drive, you’ll be able to, you go as a radar operator’, so ok fine. In the meantime I was sent to a place as a clerk. So they got that all wrong until I said ‘I’m not a clerk, I’m going as a radar operator’. So finally they realised because when I reported to St John’s Wood, when I first went in, there’s another guy named Harris and he starts three numbers 168 same as mine, but his other numbers were different, so they got him mixed up with me ‘cause they didn’t look any further until they realised their mistake. So that was that, so eventually after much arguments I was, ok go down to in Wiltshire and you will become trained as an operator. So about twelve or sixteen ex aircrew we’re trained as radar operators, yeah, for six months. When we finished the course, the signal came from the Air Ministry, all the ex air crew that had taken the radar operators are now redundant, report back to Burn. So we got back to Burn, said ‘what happened?’ I said, ‘I want to learn to drive’, ‘ok we’ll teach you to drive’. So that was that.
TO: And what did you think of other RAF leaders? What did you think of RAF’s general leaders?
BH: In general, loved it. You see, the pysco is this, with aircrew, all volunteers, no one conscripted, they all had the same state of mind, they all wanted to fly and kill Germans. So we had all that in common and air crew is like a big family even today. Even with so few of us left. Silly contact, so, although it was a war it was a great experience, [unclear] my teams.
TO: Were there any ever occasions where weather at your airfields damaged the aircraft?
BH: No. The only laughable thing is that the weather, one briefing we had at OTU we head to normal briefings what you gonna do and end of which is the met man, I can see him now, tall man, long neck, big Adam’s apple, when he’s going all through the [unclear] and he says, ‘you got five tenths cloud’ and all that, but we said ‘it’s raining outside’ , he said ‘not according to my map it’s not’, and it was, it was bucketing down, not according to my map, he said, and that’s true.
TO: And what kind of information would you be given at the briefings?
BH: On a normal target, what you got to do, courses, the courses, navigation, radio codes, gunnery, the whole lot and then finish up with the met report.
TO: What kind of gunnery would you be, what kind of gunnery would they cover at the briefing?
BH: What kinds of what?
TO: What aspects of gunnery would they cover at the briefings?
BH: Just to make sure that your guns are ok, your belts are ok, the gun belts ‘cause they run on the side and your gun is fully charged and everything else. And also the height you’ll be flying at, in most cases more than about ten to fifteen thousand feet, then up to twenty thousand.
TO: Did you bring any rations with you aboard the bomber?
BH: Yeah. There was chocolate of course, gum, I think the gum, I’m not sure, certainly chocolate, apple, I think, what they called the flying breakfast you had to have a pint of milk, there’s an urn of milk on the side, and you had your flying breakfast going and coming back whatever you did. Yeah, there was a chocolate, I don’t remember any of the others ‘cause I don’t think I used it. I did use the chocolate once, it was like a block of ice, it was frozen, nearly knocked my teeth out. So I used to have it, everybody had a flying ration.
TO: And what kind of rations did you have at the air bases?
BH: Very good, very good, at Heaton Park, where we were waiting to go abroad, they had a most brilliant chef there and he made trifles every Sunday, now if I was out on the site I would make sure I go back, he was brilliant, but the food was good.
TO: Did you have more in the air forces food than as a civilian?
BH: Then what?
TO: Than as a civilian?
BH: Yeah, I think so, yeah, yeah.
TO: And do you remember, sorry I’m going back slightly but, do you remember how you felt when the RAF won the Battle of Britain?
BH: Yeah, elated. Absolutely, that was a turning point of the war. But that’s set off the Blitz, then he resorted to air bombardments by the Luftwaffe and when he was beaten in that, in the Battle of Britain, he resorted to night flying, bombing.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the attack on the Ruhr Dams?
BH: Yeah, 617 Squadron. Yeah, that was May 16th, 17th, and May the 17th was my 20th birthday. So, I remember it well.
TO: Was it widely reported in the press?
BH: Mh?
TO: Was the attack on the dams widely reported in the press?
BH: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. See, don’t forget, the Battle of Britain was the only real victory that we had, I mean, the desert warfare was going backwards and forwards with Rommel, so that was the only real victory and the bombing of Germany was applauded because we’d had enough, we, it was a turning point, it was, it was as if the Germans were invincible, that was a feeling, but when we had these victories, they weren’t invincible, they realized we could do something about it.
TO: Did they report much about the campaign in North Africa in the papers?
BH: Well, the campaign in North Africa, was, until Montgomery came on the scene was backwards and forwards, Rommel came, forced the British back, [unclear] finished up outside Cairo, at El Alamein and he stood his ground there and he beat Rommel but a lot of people don’t know if you get into modern history of the Middle East, that Sadat who was president, became president of Egypt, plotted with the Arabs to attack Montgomery from the rear to help the Germans and he was arrested by the British, yeah. I won’t go into modern history about the Arabs or anything else, but yeah, he plotted as the others, the Mahdi of Jerusalem went to Berlin so Montgomery had a lot against him but he fought through and he’s held at El Alamein and that was a good victory there. And that was another turning point of the war but you couldn’t rely on the Arabs nor could you today, I have to say, but anyway, scrub that. But yes, so, Battle of Britain and El Alamein, the bombing of Germany. Dresden, right, you take Dresden, Canon Collins who was anti, against the atom bomb and everything else CND he used to go around preaching to aircrew not to bomb Germany and he was allowed to do it for some reason. However, that’s another story, but if you take Dresden with Stalin who was advancing, Dresden was no longer an open city, before that they were making gun sites as well, had a big industry in gun, opticians and, Stalin said to Truman at that time and Churchill that Dresden, the troops, German troops are massing in Dresden and I want them seen to, I want them cleared, so both the Americans, us, the RAF, bombed Dresden. Dresden was unfortunate but there was twenty five thousand casualties, Goebbels put another nought on the ending, it made two hundred and fifty thousand but Dresden was needed because Stalin wanted it, it was in the way of his troops to get into East Germany so no matter what anybody said about Dresden, I will always say Dresden was needed unfortunate. You tell me about Coventry, you tell me about Rotterdam, you tell me about Bristol, Southampton, Bristol, you tell me about those cities, don’t tell me, don’t talk to me about Dresden.
TO: And then, what did you think of the German aircraft of the war?
BH: Never flew one [laughs]. Well, they served their purpose, the Heinkel was the most hated, the 101, no 111, no 101, because they used to desynchronize their engines, whether they did that to avoid radar or not but you could always tell them, the Heinkel 11, they desynchronized [mimics the sound of engines] so that was a horrible sound. The 109s they were ok, the Focke-Wulf was alright and then they brought in the jet towards the end of the war, the Messerschmitt jet, yeah, fighter aircraft, [unclear] aircraft.
TO: And were you quite friendly with the ground crew?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah, especially the WAAFs. Yes, yeah, always had contact with the ground crew, and they’d always be at the end of the runway when you’re taking off.
TO: Did they see you, were they cheering at you?
BH: Yeah. [unclear] together two fingers back.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the first thousand bomber raid on Cologne?
BH: No, I wasn’t involved in it.
TO: But did they report it?
BH: Yeah, they’re good [?]. Actually they brought in aircraft from OTUs, Wellingtons as well, from OTUs and heavy conversion units, they brought everybody in, it was unlucky not to be called. Took tinsel instead. Window.
TO: And when was Window first developed?
BH: I think by Barnes Wallis, he designed the Wellington, I think it was one of his ideas. He just put it down the chute, the flare chute, just bundled it down. And of course, the Germans on their radar, swamped their radar.
TO: And you mentioned sometimes you went on these, was it secret operations or special operations? You said you went on operations to deploy Window as a decoy?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Would you deploy it around the North Sea?
BH: Yeah, I was [file missing] over the North Sea, yeah. The idea was if the main bomber, the main route was through Holland, from the East Coast to Holland. So, if a main group was going, say, across The Hague, we would go with the Window south of that because the German fighter group were patrolling round [unclear] so if they were sent off that way to find us with the Window, they used up their fuel so they had to come back to refuel and in the meantime the main forces got through. Coming back was a different story of course but the main force had got through.
TO: What do you think of the American aircraft of the war?
BH: Was a big aircraft with a little bomb bay. Didn’t have much to do with them really. I mean Mildenhall 3 Group where I was in, I was surrounded by the Americans, Norfolk and all around that. And the only thing against them was that, when they took off, they wouldn’t go over the coast until they got to their operational height and then they went, so if we had a [unclear] right, we got this humming guide on all the time and once they got their operational height, then their fighter escort would go off, and then off they would go, so we called them as a bloody nuisance. But they are good guys, I mean, they took a hammering, they really did. Their graves, memorial in Cambridge, massive, the graveyards there, massive memorial. Took a hell of a pounding.
TO: Did you, were you ever escorted by American fighters?
BH: No. No.
TO: Or Spitfires at all?
BH: No. The only time had contact with a Spitfire was that one they tested the side.
TO: Did you ever, did airfields ever run low on supplies like fuel or bombs?
BH: The airfields yeah, bomb dumps and fuel dumps, yeah. Yeah, self-contained, yeah.
TO: And did they ever run low on supplies?
BH: No, well planned. It was mostly worked by the Royal Army Service Corps. It was the same Royal Army Service Corps bloated our aircraft with food for Holland. Stacking up the bomb bay.
TO: Can you tell me how Operation Manna worked?
BH: Worked? I’ll tell you how it came about and worked. Yeah.
BH: Operation Market Garden, Arnhem was unfortunately a disaster. The idea was to shorten the war and go through [unclear] backed by the Germans. The Reichsmaster, it was a Hungarian, Austrian Nazi commander in Holland by the name of Arthur Seyss-Inquart was so incensed that he stopped all food coming into Western Holland from the agriculture part of Holland itself. Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard were here in England, in the UK, in exile and in January 1944 she called the railway workers to go on strike in Holland. Well this Nazi Reichmaster in retaliation ordered the sea locks to be broken, flooding Western Holland from Utrecht right round to The Hague. So, the dykes were broken and it was flooded. There was a population of three million nine hundred thousand in that area and this is a fact ‘cause I gave a talk on it to 622 Squadron which was reformed in Brize Norton in May, anyway. So out of three million nine hundred thousand, eventually twenty thousand died of starvation and malnutrition was rife, people were starving, so Queen Juliana appealed to Churchill and Truman and Eisenhower. Eisenhower said, they will have to wait, he is not committing his troops, while there are six hundred thousand Germans in Western Holland. Anyway, so Queen Juliana said, finally Eisenhower said, [unclear] find a way of delivering food. And he brought in Air Commodore Andrew Geddes, who was on tactical air force in main headquarters of the Allies, so cut a long story forward, he was met Bedell Smit and Bedell Smith to him, we have a situation, we got people starving and they have to be supplied by food by air. You devise a plan and you come and tell back and tell me what you gonna do. So, apparently, Andrew Geddes went away with others to tactical air force and he devised a plan for dropping food in certain areas in Western Holland by air incorporating the squadrons of Lancasters and also Pathfinders and he got hold of this Nazi [unclear] and in a school called, they met in a school called [unclear] and they explained the plan. The Germans didn’t like it, he said, not the case of you liking it, it’s what we’re gonna do. And if you interfere in any way in what we gonna do, you’ll be arrested as a war criminal. So, on April 29th, the 28th it started but the weather was too bad, so on the 29th of April Operation Manna started without the agreement being signed until the next day. And quite legally they could’ve been shot down and we’re going three hundred feet, hundred meters, something like that, we did a designated area, if anybody went outside that area they’d be warned by red flares and shot at and shot down. Anyway, so, it went off without incident and that was the start of Manna and it went from April the 29th to May the 8th. The Americans came in, they called it Chowhound, the next day and they finished on May the 7th. So in a total there was twelve thousand tons of food dropped overall, the RAF dropped seven thousand and the Yanks dropped four thousand. And to this day in Holland it’s taught, as history, by survivors and when we’ve been back there before we’ve been invited back, as I say, in 1981, we went in 1982 on that first trip, we were overwhelmed, we didn’t realise, people used to come up to us and still do when we go there, thank you for saving my life, thank you for saving my parents life, children are growing, it’s very touching. And that’s how it came about.
TO: And what do you remember the most when you were participating in Operation Manna?
BH: But we went in, I think about two or three thousand feet and dropped to three hundred when we got over to Holland. My first, I’m the last to see anything ‘cause I’m at the back, there’s this boy on his bicycle, on top of the dyke, flooded all around, astride his bicycle, waving a Union Jack and a Dutch tricolour, right and we were flying in just below the roof of a hospital, they were all waving sheets and God knows what else. And we went between The Hague and Rotterdam to drop at Eppinburgh and straight out again. But we could see people waving, they were warned to keep away, one guy whose pony rushed onto the dropping field, got hit by a sack of potatoes and that killed him. But other thing and the Germans were told that if they touched the food in any way they will be arrested as war criminals but this Nazi, he was eventually tried and hanged as a war criminal because not only was he involved in Holland, he followed the German army through the occupied areas organising transportations and everything else, he was a real, real Nazi and he was strung up.
TO: Is there anything else you remember in particular about Operation Manna, which sticks out to you?
BH: There is a guy named Hans Onderwater also a [unclear] historian, he wrote a book called Manna Chowhound, still very friends with him, right, and he organised a hell of a lot, what we, with the Manna Association, what we used to do, together with Americans, they used to come over here, we meet up in Lincoln, right, on the weekend, and we had four coachloads to go to various, entertained by various airfields the RAF Coningsby, Scampton, Waddington, places like that, and they used to, the fifth year we’d go to Holland, and boy! We didn’t know where were going and we were hosted all over the country, memorials, dining, visiting, schools, lectures, concerts, incredible, absolutely incredible.
TO: And the food supplies that you had on board the plane, were they, did they have parachutes attached to them?
BH: No, just dropped out the bomb bay. Just open the bomb bay, they’d fall down. The Pathfinders went in first who did the markers because they were told, the Dutch were told, the aircraft would be coming in and dropping red markers and then after that on their radios ‘cause they were all hidden, radios were all hidden, [unclear] anyway, the aircraft are leaving England bringing you food and of course all out on the streets waiting for the aircraft.
TO: Was there anyone that you know of who actually got fired at during Operation Manna?
BH: Yeah, one guy got a bullet through his foot because some irate Germans, we followed the guns, the anti tank guns, they were following us, could see that clearly and I tracked them as well, but of course we were vulnerable at that height, there were a few rifle shots, one guy got a bullet through his foot, and you could see that, that sort of things that were given there [emphasis: sound of papers rustling] [unclear] in there, a card from Prince Bernhard, he was our, he was our president, and that’s a card from from Bernhard when Queen Wilhelmina died I sent a card, a condolence card, got load of medals in there, as the other guys from Manna. Now, there is only six of us left and the guy, Bob Goodman, he was the leader of Chowhound, he died this March. So, like all good things come to an end, don’t they.
TO: When Operation Manna began, and you had the briefings,
BH: Yeah.
TO: Were you or anyone else surprised when you heard you would be dropping food?
BH: Not surprised, more of an adventure I think. I mean, it was humanitarian. No, it was a surprise, something we wanted to do and like all operations, when you go for briefing, the whole airfield is closed down, the gates are closed, RAF police on the doors, it’s a lockdown. You only go and get your gear and get your breakfast and go.
TO: Did it feel strange to have, to be carrying food rather than weaponry?
BH: Well we knew that, why we were doing it, I mean, three million nine hundred thousand people, I mean we got photographs of kids [unclear] walking about with large spoons, so when they went by these areas where the, kitchens, common kitchens, they’d scrape out the bottom of the urn, we got photographs of kids dying in the streets.
TO: Do you think Operation Manna could have been launched sooner than it was?
BH: I think it was in a timescale it should have done. Because they did know the seriousness after the what happened to, after Arnhem and this Nazi what he would do. He was rightly strung up as well anyway.
TO: And did you hear, was there much reporting on what was happening on the Russian front?
BH: Yeah, oh yeah. Well the Russians, you know, they took quite a beating until they got to Stalingrad, they could have gone, if they had gone past Stalingrad it would have been another story, but the winter of all things killed them, hope, unfortunately and the Russians, I mean, their hatred of the Germans, you couldn’t describe it, so, yeah, right, that’s why there was a great Communist movement in this country as well, because Communism as against, never mind what Stalin did with Holland he made the deal in ’39 didn’t he? With him, but regardless of all that, the British public could see the only real enemy and allies, as far as we were concerned, allies were the Russians. If it wasn’t for the Russians, the Germans would have been here. There’s no doubt about it.
TO: And when did you or when did the news of the Holocaust reach Britain?
BH: What?
TO: News of the Holocaust reach Britain?
BH: Well apparently, well being Jewish I know [unclear], we knew there was concentration camps and what the Germans did before the war with Jews and everything, with the refugees and everything coming over and telling their stories of what was happening. But apparently the leaders of the Jews in Germany were begging for the Allies to bomb the [unclear], but we were, with Enigma, Churchill’s excuse was we know but we, we don’t want the Germans to know that we have Enigma, that we’ve been broken their code, that was his excuse. There was one flaw, they were begging to be bombed because what was happening. But he didn’t want the Germans to know that we knew all about Enigma. So his excuse was no, if we know about concentration camps we would know their secrets. But they took no notice of what was coming out through the Jewish movement, with the concentration camps. Only it wasn’t only Jews, yeah, there’s the only fly in the ointment.
TO: And when did you personally first hear of the Holocaust?
BH: Not until the war ended actually.
TO: And what was your rank when you were in the air force?
BH: Flight sergeant.
TO: Flight sergeant.
BH: I was just coming up to warrant officer.
TO: And were you actually ever on bombing missions or was Operation Manna your first proper
BH: Operation Manna was only one, yeah. As I say, we were involved in experimental stuff.
TO: Did you ever experiment with stuff that turned out not to work? Did you ever experiment with equipment that didn’t work?
BH: No, no, the only thing we were doing was with that gunsight and also we were experimenting with things, high level bombing as well. I’ve got in my log book high-level bombing, which certain things had to be done and navigational things but as a person who wanted to get in the war I still regret not having a good run at the Germans by getting in to bombing raids. But then the powers above gave the orders. Couldn’t go off on our own. Have you ever met a guy named Harry Irons?
TO: Harry [unclear]?
BH: Irons? Harry Irons?
TO: Irons, I think I’ve heard of him but I have not met him.
BH: Oh, he’s local, he lives not far [unclear], he’d done two tours as a rear gunner. I was with him on June the 4th.
TO: Yeah. Of this year?.
BH: Yeah.
TO: Does he live that far from here or?
BH: Mh?
TO: Does he live near here?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Maybe you can put me in touch with him later perhaps.
BH: You want, well, do you want to see him?
TO: Well, maybe, if he wants to talk.
BH: He wants to, yeah, I only, I haven’t got his phone number. I got his phone number but it’s all wrong.
TO: Oh, ok.
BH: I’ve got his address.
TO: Maybe I could send him a letter or something.
BH: Do you want the address?
TO: Well, we can sort that later. It’s fine.
BH; Yeah?
TO: We can sort it later. It’s fine.
BH: Ok.
TO: So, where would you keep the parachutes on board the plane?
BH: Just inside the fuselage, behind the turret. You had to open the turret doors, get the parachute, click it on, turn the parachute, the turret to the side, open the doors and fall out. But you had to get to your parachute first, because it was in the fuselage. And if you couldn’t open the doors, hard luck.
TO: Did they have a steep hatch [file missing]?
BH: Yeah, further up. Yeah.
TO: And were there any occasions where you were flying over Europe and you got lost?
BH: Only in the one I told you about. We were actually fired at over the, over Jersey, we were doing a trip over there, a sortie over there, Northern France, experimental and we were actually fired at and I see this [unclear] coming up, but it missed, as you can see.
TO: Was the fire anywhere near the plane or?
BH: Not, it was why they missed, they went away. Just watched it coming up, this flame.
TO: Did you, were your missions mainly during the night?
BH: Mh?
TO: Were your missions mainly during the night?
BH: Yeah, night training yeah, most of my flying hours were at night.
TO: And how long would a mission tend to last?
BH: Well, it be anything, an hour, an hour and a half, if you are doing circuits and bumps it could be an hour, we say the circuits and landings, circuits and bumps we called them. But one and three quarters hours, something like that.
TO: Cool. And what was the procedure for a squadron’s aircraft to take off?
BH: Well that was controlled by airfield control. Would you like a drink?
TO: No thanks, I’m fine, my eyes are a bit sore. [unlcear]
BH: You’re alright?
TO: Yeah, I’m fine. Yes, so, do you remember what the procedure was for taking off?
BH: Yeah, first of all you went out to dispersal by the crew bus, then you, you got in your positions, everybody in, everything was tested, the ailerons, rudders, flaps, not the flaps but the, certainly the ailerons, then the engines were started up, first the hydraulics, I think was the port outer then the port [unclear] in [unclear] and so forth. Get them running up all ready, then you got the call from aircraft control and you taxied out. And you waited on the tarmac and then as you were called from the air control on the end of the runway, right, give you the green light, you just went round and off you go.
TO: And what about landing, what was the procedure for that?
BH: Same thing, they called it, what they called the funnel, you’re in, pilot called out ‘funnel funnel‘, and they’re calling and said, ‘you do a circuit of the airfield and you come in’ and then, landing in like that there, one after the other and they called that funnel. That’s when you’re most vulnerable, the flaps are down, undercarriage is down, you have slow airspeed and that’s when they took advantage with the intruders.
TO: Were landings and take offs ever nerve-racking at all?
BH: No, I loved them, it’s the best part of it, landing and taking off. Even now, with commercial aircraft, the best part.
TO: When you were flying, could you, were you always above cloud level or?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Or could you ever see the land below?
BH: Only when it’s what they called ten tenths but if it’s like this you couldn’t, probably the height of the clouds at the moment thirty, thirty five thousand feet so if you did it in twenty you could see, but as I say, most of it was at night and don’t forget blackout everywhere. So, it’s all done by navigation and Gee.
TO: And how did Gee work?
BH: It was a series of signals and it was like a small television screen and they had two bars running, one across there and one underneath it, with like “V”s on them, like that, and then as you match them up, you press another button, up come a map where you were, showing you exactly where you were. But that time we got lost somewhere over the Midlands so it didn’t work so we didn’t know where we were but yeah I used to enjoy doing that because when we knew we were quite safe I used to get out of the turret and help Arthur with his navigation ‘cause one of my pet subjects that was when we at ITW.
TO: Were you allowed to leave the turret or were you supposed to stay there?
BH: Unofficially. No once you’re in there, you’re supposed stay in there, but there you are.
TO: And how, how much, was it very noisy aboard the planes?
BH: Very noisy, drumming. A lot of guys suffered, I still have a bit of tinnutis, a lot of guys got pension for the tinnitus, the constant roar of the aircraft, the vibration as well.
TO: And did you, did you have radio sets to talk to each other?
BH: Intercom. They had what they call RT, radio transmission, which another funny story. Stan Fig [?], our radio operator, he could swear for twenty minutes without repeating the same word twice and at one time, we were coming back, on OT on Wellingtons, and we were in a circuit and down on the starboard side to me, which is the port side, ‘cause I’m in reverse to the pilot, I called up with his [unclear] ‘Pete there is someone trying to muscle in on the circuit’, right, on your port side, right, now before that he puts, he switches the RT on, asked for permission to land, now that goes everywhere. So Stan, he puts his head up then and he starts swearing about these guys trying to muscle in. When we got down in the crew bus, picked us up and then he went and picked the other crew up who were Canadians and they go, who is that so and so and so swearing at us? Pete the pilot forgot to switch off the RT, yeah, and it’s gone everywhere, the Germans must have thought it was a foreign language or code, when we, had to report to the air control right and the WAAF at the air control she had a fit with all the swearing and everything [laughs], so, everybody knew about it, right, so anyway we got roasted over that.
TO: And whenabouts did that occur? Do you know what year and month that occured?
BH: Ah, that was in ’43, ’44.
TO: And this was during a training mission, was it?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Could you ever see the cities below you when you were flying over them?
BH: No, that’s all blacked out.
TO: And did you hear about the D-Day invasion?
BH: Oh yeah. Yeah, because when it happened when they said it was a delay in pilot training they sent us back to St John’s Wood where we originally, all the aircrews reported to St John’s Wood. My first day I reported to St John’s Wood to have an inspection in Lord’s, I dropped my trousers under the portrait of W.G. Grace and again, I’ll tell you what, a plate of oxtail soup and we were billeted in St John‘s’ Wood so we were sent back to St John’s Wood and while we were still there the D-Day was on. We saw the aircraft going over. So, I remember that very well. June the 6th 1944.
TO: Were those have been the airborne troops or bombers?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
TO: So were they airborne troops?
BH: Yeah. Were going over London from all round, from the South Coast, Sterlings were taking the gliders.
TO: What do you think of the Sterling?
BH: I’ve never got in touch with it, it was older and all but 622 Squadron they had Sterlings at first ‘cause it was a peacetime build up, peacetime field which 622 was born out of C flight of 15 Squadron which now flies Typhoons chasing German, Russian bombers. And they reinformed, we reinformed in Brize Norton three years ago and that’s why I was invited three years ago and also in May this last, this May to go there to give a talk on Manna. That’s why it’s all there.
TO: Did they enjoy the talk?
BH: Yeah.
TO: Do you know of anyone or meet anyone who ever refused to go on bombing missions?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. Couple of Jewish friends, Harry Irons, who I mentioned, he was a tailor, he went in as a gunner straight away and, yeah, a lot of guys from Manna, who were wing commanders, one was a group captain, and we were as one, there was no rank then but great guys. One was Des Butters [?], he was a pilot on Pathfinders so yeah. Another one, I know very well, friend as well, David Fellowes, he is still very active, goes round signing books and he’s older than me.
TO: Were there any other times where someone refused to go on a bombing raid?
BH: Well, the only contact I had with anything like that is our first navigator, who was married and he couldn’t take it anymore and in those days they called it Lack of Moral Fibre. Today you’d go and see a psychiatrist and you’re just whipped away, away, demoted, taken to a place like Christchurch or something like that and demoted him and they treated you like dirt, where it’s a mental condition, I mean, they just didn’t want anybody contaminated, so we had to have a new navigator, a bomb aimer, sorry, he was a bomb aimer, a new bomb aimer.
TO: Did they ever, did he ever talk about what, the problems he had?
BH: Mh?
TO: Did this man ever talk about the problems he’d faced?
BH: No. No. Kept it to himself and then suddenly it’s gone.
TO: What is your best memory of your time in the RAF?
BH: My best memory is after the war when I was sent to Italy and I was on a Squadron, Cento, 112 Squadron and flying in a harbour towing drogues and they had the wing had it’s own rest centre with a hotel, the place called Grado and they want somebody to run it ‘cause the guy was going home. So I volunteered, so all I had to do was go there, make sure it was run properly, make sure it had all the rations and everything else, saw that the staff got paid, got myself a big ‘Q’ time dinghy, go down on the beach. Go back for lunch, go back to the beach again and make sure everything was alright. So until the winter set in then I couldn’t do it anymore and came home in January 1947. But there was the best time in the RAF [laughs].
TO: And, sorry to ask this, but what is your worst memory of your time in the RAF or of the war in general?
BH: The worst memory is the ones that I told you, when the aircraft was rattling and we didn’t know where we were. Everything else is taken in stride.
TO: What did you tend to do to keep up morale?
BH: Morale didn’t come into, as I said, we were all volunteers, we knew what we were in for, so we used to go drinking together as a crew when we had nights off, each one bought a round of half a pint , so that’s three and a half pints, twice, seven pints, so we used to roll back, go to somebody else’s aircraft and get a wick of their oxygen and go back to bed. And they probably did the same to us.
TO: How did the oxygen help?
BH: Well, it livened you up really, it sobered you up.
TO: Were there any occasions where you oxygen supplies froze up?
BH: Mh?
TO: Did your oxygen supplies ever freeze up?
BH: No, no. Not that I know of.
TO: And how did those heated jackets work that you mentioned?
BH: Very good, in fact they ruined my feet for a while. You had, first of all you had silk and wool underwear, vest, long pants right the way down to the, then you had the uniform. Then there was, as far as the gunners were concerned, there was this heated suit which plugged in, so you had slippers, heated slippers that plugged in and all connected, all the way up. Then, your flying suit on top of that, your gauntlets, inner gauntlet was a heated one and all studded to this inner suit and then of course, your, mae west and then your parachute harness on top of that, so you were really lumbering. They brought you at one time what they called the tailor’s suit, it was massive, I don’t know why they got it, we couldn’t get into the turret with it so we quickly discarded that. It was huge like, huge, you know, God knows, anyway it was a bad buy, called it the tailor’s suit. So, yes, we had a heated suit but the heated slippers created havoc with the sole of my feet, burnt them, and it took two or three years after I had come out of the air force to get it right and after that out of habit I still wear white socks.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war ended?
BH: Yeah, I was over Holland dropping food. It was the last flight and then the war was over. May the 8th 1945.
TO: And what kind of entertainment did you have at your airbases?
BH: Well, some of them had ENSA concerts but there was not on the base, you had to go outside, at Mildenhall there was a cinema in the town. Some places had ENSA, where the singers and dancers used to come, they would do a performance, some were horrible, sometimes the cinema. One had a cinema that had broke down, halfway through the film, with Cary Grant, don’t remember the title but anyway broke down and that was that so went to the pub but entertainment mostly go to the pub, local pub.
TO: Were there any particular songs that the RAF liked to sing?
BH: No, not really. We used to sing flying, flying fortresses, fly never so high, go round [unclear] in circles finally finishing on their own, up their own backsides, something like that. Well, we put a girl on a bar in a pub and the song is, this is your ankles, this is your kneecap, this is your and this is r, r, r, you know, all that palaver and the girls loved it. But apart from that, made our own entertainment.
TO: And on days when you were just stationed on the airbases, not on operations, could you hear the drone of other bombers flying around?
BH: Well, the Americans. Oh yeah, well at Mildenhall because they used to start four o’clock, five o’clock in the morning. ‘Cause they would totally fly in day, in daylight, which they could, you know, they were vulnerable, very vulnerable.
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
BH: Mh?
TO: Do you think the war was worth the price?
BH: I’m sorry.
TO: Do you think the war was worth it?
BH: It was essential. You wouldn’t be here today. Nor would I. It was essential. The biggest mistake was, when Hitler came to power, I think, Churchill warned, war was coming, nobody took him notice until finally 1938, ’36, the Spanish War, which was a rehearsal for the Germans, they should’ve start rearming then, ‘cause the writing was on the wall. But there were a lot of vested interests in this country like Lord Halifax at that time, who was, he wanted to negotiate with the Germans. Churchill sent him to America as an ambassador, he was a German lover and there were a few others in the arms industry as well, them German lovers, vested interests. So in 1936 the writing was on the wall. So, Churchill was the only one who could see it. And they called him a warmonger. But they say, comes the moment, comes the right man.
TO: And how do you feel about Germany today?
BH: The old generation I don’t want hear anything to do about. The new generation are different ‘cause they don’t want anything to do with their own teutonic ways of life, they’re youngsters, you can understand, they’re a great help to Israel, lot of Germans used to go to Israel, kibbutz and all that, I’ve been there, they’ve been there, right, and no, from what they doing I admire them but the only thing now is, I mean, now we got this exodus, well, I call it the exodus, Brexit, coming out of Europe, my opinion is that in time that Germany will be the dominant nation in Europe, who don’t like the French and the French don’t like them. I just hope [emphasis] that it all works out, we don’t get sucked into another war. Because the idea of a united Europe in the first place was to stop wars. So, I’m sad at the outcome. But as far as the Germans today, I admire them in a way, they’re doing well, very well. In part of course they got right wingers again, which has clouded the whole issue with the referendum, I mean immigration has clouded the whole issue, people can’t see further than, so I won’t go on to that. ‘Cause there is one man I blame, it’s the worst president at the wrong time, at the wrong time, Obama. You can edit this but I’ll tell you, when he said to the Syrians, yeah, that if you use chemical weapons on your population, that is a red line, and he’d become a puff, a puff of a pink line, he’d done nothing and that was the signal for them to do whatever they wanted to do. What general tells the enemy or, I’m not going to send an army in, there will be no boots on the ground and that caused what is happening now and that’s caused, who wants to leave their home really, and that’s caused a desperate refugee problem in Syria. I put it down to, the quicker he goes the better, he’s out anyway, so. That’s my opinion.
TO: And what do you think of Britain’s involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan?
BH: I think it was the right one. I really do. With Afghan it’s been going on for years, when I mean the Russians and all they’re interested in doing there is killing one another and killing everybody else. I mean, it was going on before the First World War, our Bomber Harris used to fly biplanes, and they used to fly with I think it was a pot of gold ‘cause if they were captured, they gave it to the Afghanis, the tribesmen otherwise they cut their testicles off. So, that’s pre 1914. So that’s [unclear]. With Iraq that was a different story, yeah. The biggest mistake with Iraq when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, yeah, and Bush senior invaded, don’t forget Palestinian also, Palestinian terrorist also sided with and in they went into Kuwait as well, right, thought that was a good thing. But when George Bush senior and the Allies went in and pushed them out of Kuwait and on the road to Baghdad all the goodies said stop, you mustn’t do it, said stop, that created the next problem and the next problem was, who knew, he did have gas, he gassed his own people. Of course he had a secret weapon. All these do-gooders, yeah, what happened if they did have them? But the biggest mistake was and is, the Western world does not understand the hatred between the Sunni and the, oh God.
TO: The Shi’a. The Shi’a?
BH: Shi’a. They hate one another. And always will hate one another. They didn’t understand the enmity. So the Shi’a were the governing body in Iraq and the Sunnis hated the sight of them. ‘Cause you got Iran fostering them all up as well. But the bigger to say was they used to call the Foreign Office the camel brigade, Arab lovers ‘cause most of them used be educated in Lisbon, they don’t understand the hatred between the Shi’a and the Sunni and that will never go away. There will never be peace with them. That’s the biggest problem. Don’t blame Blair, blame his advisors who knew the Arab mind, they knew about Islam, they didn’t advise him properly. You go in, make sure you got a proper government. Don’t leave it to the Sunnis or the Shi’a. And that will go on.
TO: I think I pretty much asked all of my questions, so. Thank you so much, I really enjoyed.
BH: You are welcome. Do you want a cup of tea or something?
TO: Ah [file missing] So.
BH: Did the museum supply you with that?
TO: No, it’s my own.
BH: Really?
TO: I brought my so, I do film interviews. And, have you ever watched films about the war?
BH: Yeah.
TO: And what do you think of them?
BH: Yeah, quite good. Glorified, you know, made for the screen, a couple of, a few things they say makes me wince, but for instance pilots always have to be commissioned, right, but, in actual fact you could have a sergeant pilot and a squadron leader rear gunner, right, but films glorify, I mean, as far as a pilot is, ‘cause he’s, the officer he’s the only one to talk about, so. The best film I ever saw was “Journey Together”, where, it takes Richard Attenborough, when he was very young and somebody else, can’t remember his name, where they come together in the ITW and it goes through their course and Richard Attenborough, and then he’s gone overseas, and so is his friend, his friend come to pilot, Richard Attenborough can’t tackle flying, crashes the plane [unclear] and he doesn’t like it, he has to be a navigator, so it is a very good film, so they put him to the test, right, so the screen pilot is flying an Anson which is the one of the planes I was trained on and says I’m not [unclear] and Richard Attenborough, I can’t get what, you know, he want to be a pilot, anyway he says I’m not [unclear] something then they got him, he actually got up, worked it all out then where he were and he realised then that he is just as important as a navigator as all the rest of the crew. Each one has his job to do, they are all important, so, I think that was the best one ever. Another one was the “Journey to the Stars”, we see again only officers please, yeah, otherwise worth watching but that with the “Journey Together” was the only one that I really liked. The other was, you know, we only serve officers if you don’t mind.
TO: What do you think of the Dam Busters film?
BH: Well, that was quite factual, and they couldn’t mess about with that. So, that was quite good, that was quite factual. In fact, in matter of fact, we met his daughter, Barnes Wallis’s daughter up at Coningsby year before last.
TO: Yeah.
BH: Was Open Day up there. I don’t if you went.
TO: No. And do you remember hearing about Japan attacking Pearl Harbour?
BH: Yeah. Yeah, 1941. Of course.
TO: And what was your attitude when you heard that that had happened?
BH: Well, this is the Axis, the come together the Japanese and the Germans, and the Italians of course. No, it was all part of the war process, wasn’t it?
TO: And what do you think of America’s use of the atomic bombs?
BH: Absolutely right. The war could have gone on for ages. Could have gone on for years. Are you tried to sorting out all those islands full of Japanese soldiers and the poor people in the camps? Right? Building the railways, slave labour, starving to death, of course it was right. Absolutely. Don’t call me a warmonger.
TO: I’m not.
BH: [laughs]
TO: And what do you, do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly?
BH: Bomber Command was not?
TO: Treated unfairly after the war.
BH: Sorry?
TO: Do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly after the war?
BH: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s why Bomber Harris went to South Africa. He didn’t want us to be redundant. Don’t forget a lot of them had to cover up their chevrons, they had to cover up their rank, I mean, that was degrading.
TO: Why did they cover their chevrons?
BH: Because they were given [unclear] office work and things like that, yeah, and so they couldn’t work amongst people, all the aircraftsmen so they had a thought, oh well, they cover up their chevrons, after all that, the thinking of some of them in Air Ministry that’s why Bomber Harris went in disgust, he wanted us demobbed.
TO: And do you remember hearing about when the Cold War was starting and Stalin was taking over Europe?
BH: [unclear] sorry?
TO: Do you remember hearing about when Stalin was taking over Eastern Europe?
BH: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, first of all there was a treaty between him and Germans over Poland which the Germans broke fortunately, they brought Russia into the war, but he was just, to me, you know, Fascism and Communism in it’s rawest form are just as bad as one another, even to this present day, I mean Putin, he is just mixing it all up and that’s the Russian way of going. And we again in the West are too weak, Crimea, he got away with it, as he gets away with everything. ‘Cause he’s too powerful, he’s bombing civilians. In Syria no one takes any notice but I bet you, because personally, right, if the Israelis done anything like that, it’d be like that on the headlines. Which they wouldn’t. Are you with me?
TO: Yeah.
BH: But Russia, no protest from anybody. He’s moving children out there in Syria on the pretext ‘cause he’s shearing up Assad, ‘cause he wants the Mediterranean Tripoli port for his Mediterranean fleet. It’s the only reason. But he’s a murderer. So he’s as bad as any Nazi.
TO: And do you remember, were there any particular celebrations when Japan surrendered?
BH: When what?
TO: When Japan surrendered, were there any particular celebrations?
BH: Oh yeah, well that was in, what was it June, was it, ’45?
TO: Yeah, August/September.
BH: Yeah, ’45, oh yeah, but that was a sort of a sideshow, as to the war in Europe. But the emancipated people that came out on the, terrible, I mean, they’re animals to do what they did. So, that’s all behind us now, was it?
TO: And how do you feel today about your wartime service? How do you feel today about your wartime service?
BH: I’m quite proud of it. I wish I could’ve done more. Yeah.
TO: And what was your career when you left the RAF?
BH: Irregular [laughs]. To own my own business, owned my own business, had that going. Don’t forget that, you know, I’m not the exception but a lot of people, thousands of people, I mean, come out the forces, they didn’t know what to do, right, some had been in five years, four years, three years, I was in four years, four years out of your teens yeah, so you don’t want to be regulated if you know what I mean, right. You are really unsettled until you find your niche and yeah, unsettled, ‘til finally I founded my own business and that was that. Then I knew what was about.
TO: And, sorry I didn’t ask, during the Blitz, whereabouts in London were you living?
BH: In East London, Forest Gate and then we moved not far from here, to Chapel Heath, which is further up the road there and bought my own house, we had a great time there. The only reason I’m here is ‘cause the house was too big for my wife, she was suffering from emphysema, so the best thing is to get a retirement flat like this. I’ve got a sister who lives in Arizona, we’ve done three months there. I got a son and grandchildren in Israel, we’ll have three months there and the rest of the time in between summer months here. But as soon as we retire, that’s what we’re gonna do. So we bought there [unclear] outstanding [?], you tell him upstairs what’s going on, and what your plans are, he’ll laugh his head off. Didn’t work out. Within two years she was dead. So I’m here, don’t particularly like it, I make the best of it, so I go to Israel a few times, my son is now living down in the Negev but it is too hot for me, I was there last October, [laughs] hit a hundred and four Fahrenheit, so a bit too hot for me, it’s alright further north, Tel Aviv and all around there, Jerusalem, but not where he is. So that’s the name of the game but always say, tell him up there, your plans, laugh his head off, he’ll make sure it doesn’t work out, and you know what I mean.
TO: Is there anything that was important to you during the war that you’ve not talked about, which you think is important?
BH: What?
TO: Is there anything that was important to you during the war which you’ve not mentioned so far, which you think is important?
BH: No, not really, I can’t think of anything. I certainly know when the V1 was about because we were training over the, flying over the North Sea, and we were told, if we see anything like that we shouldn’t mention it to the public, and when on leave with the V2 we just walk, suddenly there’s a thump, it’s the rocket had landed, but then again you know, you’re immune to these things, coming conditioned I think.
TO: So did the V1s or V2s have any impact on public morale?
BH: Concerned but they weren’t frightened of them, they knew, you know, it was the end of the war anyway. Everything was going right and that was the last throw of the Germans, Peenemunde was known about and bombed, but the V1 was transferable, they could move it around, with the V2 rockets had to have their own base and they were bombed out of sight, but a few got up and dropped but people took it as they did in the Blitz.
TO: Did you ever visit any of those places like Coventry or?
BH: Only on business, yeah. Places I built. Portsmouth and Plymouth, Plymouth, new town, new city. Rotterdam new city, absolutely new.
TO: And what do you think was the biggest mistake that the Allies made during the war?
BH: I don’t think they, I think it was circumstances, I don’t think there was any mistake. They had to respond to circumstances and the main thing they had to keep in mind was defeating the Germans. So, if there were a few mistakes, when they tried Dieppe, it didn’t come off but they were probing and they had to do these things to test their defences, so I wouldn’t put that as a mistake, it was unfortunate.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
BH: Mh?
TO: What do you think was the most important battle of the war?
BH: Well, two. The Battle of Britain and the North African campaign. Because they cleared that, there was a jumping off to get into Southern Europe via Sicily and Italy. So, two. The bombing campaign was a consequence of war, that was to stop Germany getting too strong by manufacturing armaments and things like that and also the psychological part of it was giving a bit of their own medicine because the public was screaming out for something to be done in revenge and the Germans, a part from being a planned objective, is also a moral and psychological one, giving them back as good as they get, as they’re given. That’s my opinion.
TO: Anything else you want to add to anything you said earlier at all or?
BH: No, I don’t think so.
TO: Right well.
BH: Just nice to have seen you.
TO: Thank you very much, it was
BH: Give my regards from up there.
TO: Was a pleasure to talk to you, thank you very much.
BH: Yeah. Nice to see you. And be well.
TO: Thank you, you too.
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Interview with Bernie Harris. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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02:19:14 audio recording
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Tom Ozel
Date
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2016-06-26
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie Harris joined the Air Training Corps and volunteered for the Royal Air Force, joining in April 1943 and training to become an air gunner. Mentions his father serving in the Royal Flying Corps. Witnessed the London Blitz as a young boy. Describes training and operational flying conditions. Gives a vivid, detailed, first-hand account of Operation Manna. Expresses his view on wartime events, including Chamberlain’s speech, the North African campaign, the Phoney War and the Russian contribution to the Allied victory. Explains why, in his opinion, the Allies decided not to bomb the concentration camps during the war. He was de-mobbed in 1947, after a final posting to Italy with 112 Squadron. After the war he set up his own business leasing vending machines. He later became involved in an association of ex-servicemen who were involved in Operation Manna.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
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1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
515 Squadron
622 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
entertainment
faith
Flying Training School
Gee
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Holocaust
home front
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Hixon
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Woolfox Lodge
Stalin, Joseph (1878-1953)
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/231/3604/PSpencerAHG1701.1.jpg
65cd99eb9fc28251abf8fb8fadf3114d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/231/3604/ASpencerAHG170227.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Spencer, Arthur
Arthur Humphrey George Spencer
Arthur H G Spencer
A H G Spencer
A Spencer
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history with Flight Lieutenant Arthur Humphrey George Spencer (b. 1921, 1311996 and 145359 Royal Air Force), a memoir and an essay. Arthur Spencer trained in the United States and flew two tours of operations as a navigator with 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall spa and RAF Bourn. He later became 205 Group's Navigation Officer. He flew with British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Spencer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-02
2017-02-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Spencer, AHG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PL: My name’s Pam Locker and I’m in the home of Mr Arthur Humphrey George Spencer *********** on the 27th of February 2017 at 10 o’clock. And if I could just start off by saying a very enormous thank-you on behalf of the Bomber Command Digital Archive for agreeing to talk to us and to share your memories. So if I could start by — Perhaps you could tell me a little bit about your family and how you first became involved with Bomber Command.
AS: Ok, well, I was born in Salisbury, Wilts, but my parents must have moved to Southampton before my memory begins and I was brought up in Southampton. I enjoyed school. I went to a very large Boys’ Grammar School and I was in my first year in the Sixth Form at the time of the Munich crisis and there was obviously going to be a war and as I finished school, the war broke out. In fact the first year of the war was during my last year at school. Obviously the Air Force were recruiting madly at the time of the Battle of Britain and I had grown up on the literature of the First World War. Siegfried Sassoon, Wilfred Owen and that sort of thing and realised that warfare in the trenches was pretty horrible. Richard Aldington wrote a very good novel called “Death of a Hero” which I still think is one of the best novels ever written and, so I volunteered for the Air Force and after the usual waiting around period, I found myself in the Air Force. Initially as a, an under training pilot but I didn’t make the grade as a pilot, although I got more than half way through the course. I was very late washing out as the Americans called it. I was in Florida. And so I re-mustered as a navigator and was sent back to Florida, to the United States Naval Air Station Pensacola, to undergo a navigation course. I never failed to be horrified at the inadequacy of the practical training on that course. If I’d had been at an RAF or RCAF Navigation School, I’d have had about a hundred and fifty hours in the air, undertaking navigation exercises. At Pensacola, I had less than thirty hours of flying. All of it over the Gulf of Mexico and never once experienced navigating an aircraft. The American naval way of doing things was to send up about eight people together and two of them would practice taking sun shots with a sextant, two of them would practice using the drift meter, two of them would be firing guns and two of them doing something else which I’ve forgotten, but completely inadequate. However, the theoretical side of the course, the classroom side, was excellent. It was run by an American naval officer, navigator, assisted occasionally by the RAF liaison officer and I did have a very, very good theoretical background. We were told, towards the end of the course, that the top six to, in the final examination, would ferry an aircraft home, so my first flight as a navigator was ferrying a Ventura across the Atlantic. We went to — the top six went to Dorval and then flew, after crewing up with a very experienced American civil pilot and an equally experienced wireless operator and a second pilot, who was, like ourselves, had just finished his course. We were allocated a Ventura. Little two-engined aircraft which we had to deliver to Prestwick. We, all the aircraft being ferried across at that time flew to Gander in Newfoundland and then these little aircraft had to wait for a tail wing component to get across the Atlantic. Now I was stuck there with another navigator who’d been an acquaintance at Pensacola, but not a particular friend, but because we were stuck there for a fortnight together waiting for a tail wing, we became very good friends and by co-incidence, he was sent to the same squadron as myself and when he retired from a very senior position in industry, he came to live in Somerset and so we remained lifelong friends. And, he died a couple of years ago. His family were good enough to ask me to make the eulogy at his funeral and his wife is now in a nursing home near Taunton. We try and see her every third week because her son lives in Australia and her daughter lives in Germany so we are the local contact. His name is George Brantingham and I mention this because he plays a fairly important part in a later stage of the story. Anyway, we got across the Atlantic successfully and after further training, I got to Bomber Command Operational Training Unit at Upper Heyford. Number 16 OTU. And one of the most important things you do at Operational Training Unit is to crew up into a crew. And in the literature, you find horrific stories of people being put into a hanger, twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty wireless operators and so on and being told, ‘Sort yourselves out.’ And I read this sort of thing time and time again. It was much more civilised fortunately at Upper Heyford. We were told that the course would be four weeks ground school and then the pilots would go off to a satellite airfield to learn to fly Wellingtons and then they’d come back and we would spend the last six weeks of the course flying cross-countrys and so on together. And we’d only been there two or three days when George, my friend, George Brantingham said to me, ‘I’ve got myself a pilot.’ Well I hadn’t really thought about it at that stage but I said, ‘You were quick off the mark, George. Who is it?’ And he told me it was a Sergeant Tracy, a larger than life American who’d gone north over the border to join the RCAF. And so at the next opportunity, I contacted George and said, ‘I hear you’ve got yourself a navigator. Can you recommend a pilot to me?’ And he thought for a minute and he said, ‘Well I reckon young Jimmy Munro is about the best pilot on our course.’ At the earliest opportunity, I found Jimmy. A very fresh-faced eighteen year old Canadian and I said, ‘Have you got a navigator yet?’ ‘No.’ ‘What about taking me on?’ ‘Ok that’s fine.’ And that conversation is probably why I’m here today. If I’d had a different pilot I might well not have been. But he was, as Bill Tracy had said, an incredibly good pilot. He’d grown up on the Ottawa River in a little hamlet called Fitzroy Harbour and part of his boyhood was canoeing on the Ottawa River and he handled a Lancaster just as well as he handled a canoe. And so we got through our OTU successfully. Went to Swinderby, just outside of Lincoln, to convert to Lancasters and so to 97 Squadron, fairly late in December, before Christmas, but fairly late in December 1942. Can I stop there a minute?
AS: Talk about —
PL: Re-starting, re-starting recording with Mr Spencer.
AS: Right, well, 97 Squadron in fact didn’t unleash us against the enemy right away. They gave us quite a bit more training before they decided to let us fly Lancasters, one of their precious Lancasters, on Operations. 97 by the way, was one of the very first squadrons to be equipped with Lancasters and part of their history was the daylight Augsburg raid of 1942. And some of the crew who took part in that raid were still at Woodhall Spa when we joined the squadron. Our first Operation, like all first Operations was mine-laying down on the Gironde estuary, near Bordeaux, and then we set about operating mainly to the Ruhr, Hamburg, Nuremberg, Munich, Wilhelmshaven. All in my Log Book. And the incident I want to talk about a little bit, is on the 19th of March 1943, when I flew with one of the Dambusters. Co-incidentally, he was also Munro but whereas my pilot was Sergeant Munro, this was Flight Lieutenant Les Munro, which is a name you may possibly have come across before now. Well, the three crews went from our squadron to join 617, but they started intensive low-level flying training before they left, before they left Woodhall Spa. And on one of these occasions, Flight Lieutenant Munro’s navigator was quite badly gashed across the forehead in what we would now call, nowadays call a bird strike. Now these three crews weren’t screened, was the word which we used for Operations, they were still taking part in Operations, and he was scheduled to go on Operations, but he didn’t have a navigator. Jock Rumbles, his navigator was too badly injured to go, so I was allocated to him. And that morning I flew an air test with him. You nearly always did an air test before you flew Operations at night. Twenty-five minutes. But Operations were cancelled before we even got to briefing. So although I flew with him, I didn’t operate with him. At the time I was very glad not to, because it was regarded as a bit dicey operating away from your own crew. You were very much a Unit as a crew but in retrospect it would be nice to be able to say I’d flown an Operation with one of the Dambusters. But I didn’t think that at the time, I was glad not to go. Well we continued flying, building up Operations ‘till we moved down to Bourn in April 1943 to join Pathfinder Force. We had another intensive period of training. Normally when crews joined the Pathfinder Force they went to Upwood, the Pathfinder Training School, but because we moved as a squadron, the Unit’s instructors came to us and we did a lot of intensive training. I remember Bennett. He was frequently with the squadron. He was the AOC at Pathfinder Force, of course. And one of the things he said was, ‘Of course the really important people in the crew are the navigators and bomb aimers. The pilots are only the chauffeurs to get them there.’ Which was very good for our morale, of course, as navigators. And by the time we’d finished our Pathfinder Training, it was May. Nights were very, very short indeed. And so virtually all our early Pathfinder Operations were to the Ruhr and the Ruhr took about three hours, three and half, four hours. Anywhere else in Germany took much longer. You couldn’t get there and back under cover of darkness. So we went to the Ruhr. Can we stop a second again there?
PL: Of course.
PL: Re-starting the tape.
AS: Pathfinder Force had been formed sometime fairly early in 1942. It happened after all Bomber Command had been equipped with cameras which took automatic photos when bombs were released. And when these early pictures were analysed, it was found that something like five percent of the aircraft dropped their bombs within three miles of the target, or something like that. Some infinitely small number of bombs were getting anywhere near the target and one of the measures adopted was to form Pathfinder Force which was then equipped with the, what was then the state of the art radar operation and all the other new instruments that were coming in and our job was to go in and either light up a target or more frequently mark it with bombs which were called target indicators which would burst barometrically at three thousand feet over the target because frequently the target couldn’t be seen once bombs started going down with so much smoke and dust coming up. But these target indicators hung on a parachute at about three thousand feet but they only lasted six minutes so they had to be backed-up fairly frequently. And the main Force coming along behind would bomb on the target indicator, not worry about finding an actual building or railway yard or docks or something like that to — Anyway, as I say, our early Operations in Pathfinder Force were all the Ruhr because the nights were so short. And we expected to be going to the Ruhr on the 16th of June. We’d done an air test in the morning and a bit naughtily we’d been shooting up a train just outside of Cambridge, diving at it, flying alongside it and the passengers were obviously enjoying it, they were waving back to us enthusiastically and the engine-driver was obviously enjoying it too, because he leaned out of his cabin and gave us a sign. [laughs] And er, but when it got a bit close into Cambridge, we decided we’d better go home, so we flew back to base. And when we got back to base, there was the Flight Commander’s van waiting in dispersal and we thought, ‘Oh dear. We’re in trouble,’ because we were flying quite low enough for people to see our identification letters, ‘OF-J Johnny’, and there must have been some senior officer on board, we thought, who’d got on the phone, the blower we would have called it then, as soon as he got into Cambridge and complained about these young idiots who were risking their lives in an expensive aircraft. However the Flight Commander was not there for that reason. The Flight — Jimmy opened the window and the Flight Commander called up, ‘Jimmy. You’re to take a week’s kit and fly up to Scampton after lunch.’ ‘Ok. What for?’ ‘I don’t know. You’ll get all the gen when you get there.’ So we weren’t in trouble. We found, when we got back to the mess, that four crews were going to Scampton. Now Scampton of course was the home of the Dambusters. So our attitude was, a little bit ambivalent. On the one hand, what a compliment to be one of only four crews in Pathfinder Force to be selected to take part in some special Operation. On the other hand, were we really awfully keen to be, take part in some Operation with a squadron which had only done one Operation, but on it, had lost about forty-five percent of it’s aircraft. [laughs] So, as I say, our thoughts were a bit ambivalent but there was nothing we could do about it. So we packed our kit after lunch and flew up to Scampton and when we got there, we were eventually four aircraft as I say. I’ll name the four captains. Jimmy, now a Pilot Officer, Pilot Officer Jones, Pilot Officer Munro, Pilot Officer Jones, who’d been one of the other crews that joined 97 from Swinderby in, at Christmas and two older pilots who were just coming back to 97 for a second tour. Because 97, a two-flight squadron at Bourn, at Woodhall Spa, had grown to a three-flight squadron at Bourn, so a lot of new crews coming in. So four crews were taken along to a briefing room and there, an elderly captain, a Group Captain, told us why we were there. When I say elderly, he was about thirty-five. But, er. [laughs] You know, we were all in our teens and young twenties so he seemed elderly. I’ve researched him since, and actually and I’ve found he was thirty-four at the time. [laughs] Anyway, he told us that we would be assisting Five Group, they were, of course based all round Lincoln, on a special Operation which would take place in the near future and we would be lighting the target and marking it for the aircraft of Five Group who would provide the main Force. Ok. Where? Well he either couldn’t or wouldn’t tell us when. ‘It’ll be in the next few nights, because you need a full moon to reach a pin-point target.’ And he also told us that for the next couple of nights, we would be practising over Wainfleet Sands which was a bombing range on the Wash. And that we weren’t allowed to go into Lincoln, which seemed a pity, but, still, we were confined to camp. Well after a couple of nights practising over Wainfleet Sands, we — going back a little bit, we were told as the Pathfinder crews, we had to decide the plan of attack. And what we decided was that two aircraft, ours and Pilot Officer Jones would go in first and lay a line of flares either side of the target and the other two would come along and mark it behind us. Aft er a couple of days practice, we went to briefing, and I think it was the only time I ever went for a morning briefing, and we were told where the target was, and it was the old airship shed at Friedrichshafen on Lake Constance. And they were manufacturing there some new radar devices which would no doubt improve the defences of the Ruhr and it would be in our own interest to make sure that this attack was well-carried out. But that if it didn’t occur in the next few nights, it wouldn’t take place at all because it needed good weather and a full moon. And then at the end of the briefing, almost off-handedly, we were told, ‘Well. Friedrichshafen is much too far into Germany for you to get there and back under cover of darkness so you’ll fly straight on over the Mediterranean to Algiers. Algiers and Tunisia of course having recently, having been taken by Operation Torch, the attack on the west side of Africa. Mainly French and American but it had given us airfields in North Africa which we could use. And after briefing, we could go to stores and draw some tropical kit. Which we did. None of us of course had badges of rank on this basic tropical kit which caused one or two problems when we were in Algiers, but I’ll come to that later. Well the afternoon was a lovely afternoon and we thought, ‘Ok.’ But we kept in touch with the Met Office and they got increasingly pessimistic as the afternoon went on and very close they said, ‘No. It’s not going to happen tonight.’ So we wasted our time the next day and the Met Office were becoming more optimistic and it looked as though we would go and apparently a Met Flight, Meteorological Flight, a Spitfire, went out over southern Germany and reported that the weather was good, so Operations were on. So we loaded up our kit and we took off that night at twenty to ten. That was Double British Summer Time of course and as we took off from Scampton, which incidentally was an all grass airfield. There were no runways there which surprised us that the Dambusters had been operating from an air— and of course we had a terrifically heavy load, over two thousand two hundred gallons of petrol in order to do the long flight to Algiers, so it was quite a struggle getting the thing into the air but we all got into the air and as we looked round, there were aircraft coming up from all the other Lincolnshire airfields and we set off and flew to Reading which was the first turning point. And from Reading to Selsey Bill, down on the south coast and we got there too early to cross over to France. We would have arrived in daylight and fighters patrolling the south coast came up and flew around us and waggled their wings at us which we took to mean they were wishing us good luck. And as darkness began to fall, one or two more adventurous spirits certainly set course earlier than I intended to let my pilot go but I’d done my calculations very carefully and we would get to the French coast at darkness, not into daylight. I had no wish to be over the French coast in daylight. We crossed the French coast at a little seaside town called Cabourg and I thought perhaps I’m the only person of the, what, five hundred airmen above Cabourg who’s been there before because at one stage of my education, about the third year of Grammar School, the Headmaster had said to my parents, ‘He’s doing very well in most subjects but his French is not very wonderful.’ And that was an understatement. And he recommended an exchange with a French boy and the school being right on the French coast, along the south coast, many exchanges took place every year, of course, and I was lucky enough to go three times to the same little town in Normandy, and the nearest seaside town was Cabourg, so I was taken to Cabourg quite a lot as a fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year old. Anyway we crossed at Cabourg and the Germans fired off light flak at us but light flak burns out at about twelve or thirteen thousand feet and we were up at about twenty thousand so we sneered at it a little bit and put our noses down to, as we’d been ordered to do, to go quickly through the fighter battle on the French coast and the next turning point was Orléans. Very badly blacked-out and then we turned east towards Switzerland and the weather deteriorated a bit but I’d got a drift on and an occasional light and I was pretty certain that whatever the weather, we’d see the Rhine, because even at that far from the mouth of the Rhine, it’s still a very big river. And just about as, on the ETA, Estimated Time of Arrival I’d given the pilot, he and the bomb aimer shouted, simultaneously, ‘Rhine coming up.’ And there was Basle. Basle of course is part of Switzerland. We shouldn’t have been over Switzerland but we briefed to go over Switzerland, so there we were. And we flew along the, roughly along the border between Switzerland and Germany to a point on the south side of the lake. The south side of the lake being in Switzerland and we were to orbit a little headland on the south side of the lake and then we had worked out it would take three minutes to cross the lake and three minutes before Zed, the time at which the Operation was due to begin, we set out and made our way across the lake. As we crossed the lake, the bomb aimer looking down vertically, was able to say, ‘Crossing the coast now.’ And I then counted down twelve seconds and after twelve seconds, start releasing our flares. Well, I couldn’t do any more then and I stood up in the astrodome and looked out and watched the flares bursting underneath us and when the fourth flare went, and there was no sign of other flares, they were on our left-hand side, I thought, ‘Oh goodness, have I committed some dreadful boob?’ Because there was terrific responsibility, of course, upon me and the navigator of the other aircraft. But as our fourth flare went down, a line of steerers [?] started appearing about half a mile away on the left-hand side, on our port side, and there was this enormous aircraft hangar clearly illuminated between the two lines of flares. And we were going to drop twelve flares initially and we continued and as we dropped our last flare, and I still couldn’t tell you which happened first, but two things happened, a green target indicator had burst right over the roof of the factory and we were coned in searchlights. Now, coned in searchlights is not a very nice experience I can assure you. We had been coned three or four times before and it seems to take an eternity to get out of this cone, if you’re lucky enough to get out of it. So, eventually we, Jimmy twisted and turned and twisted and turned but we couldn’t seem to shake it off and he turned about and put the nose right down and we dived out over the lake and shook them off. And we were supposed to go back to the lake after we’d finished our first, but we didn’t expect to go back to it like — that method, but there we were circling over the lake and after a few minutes, the Master of Ceremonies as he was called, master bomber, the Group Captain, had called for us to go in and lay a second line of flares and again we were coned but we got out of the cone fairly quickly that time and we had a couple of bombs, the small bombs we were carrying, we dropped those and back out over the lake and after about twenty minutes, the Master of Ceremonies declared that the raid was over and we should make our way to Algiers. He reminded us that we were very close to the Alps so that we should climb hard through the Alps and, ‘See you in Algiers.’ So we climbed hard through the Alps and, which was a lovely experience, I mean, you may well have crossed the Alps in a modern airliner at thirty thousand feet with the lights on, as I have, and looked down and thought, ‘Well. There are the Alps.’ But when you’re only just above the top and there’s no light in the aircraft and the full moon is shining, absolutely lovely. Wonderful experience. I shall remember all my life. We crossed the Italian coast somewhere close to Genoa and then we got down low, down to the sea, to keep beneath the Italian radar in Sardinia or Corsica and made for Algiers. When we got to Algiers, there was a terrific fog and we thought, ‘Well, the sixty aircraft are going to be directed out to sea and the crews are all going to be baled out,’ because you couldn’t see a thing and people were calling up, ‘I’ve only ten minutes petrol left.’ And there were no modern aids there of course. But there was an American flying control officer with enormous initiative and he got on the end of the runway in a jeep and fired Very cartridges up through the mist. And I shall always remember what he shouted, ‘The first man to make home base wins.’ [laughs] A baseball expression I assume. And the sixty aircraft landed with — one of them, there was a dead bomb aimer on board, who’d been hit by flak over the target, one from Woodhall Spa actually with the squadron that had been formed there when we left. And so we had a couple of days in Algiers. A lot of sunshine. Eating some of the fruit that we hadn’t seen for years in England and then on the way back we bombed Spetzia which was a bit of an anti-climax really because the, only two of the Pathfinder aircraft were serviceable. Two of them had to stay and come home more slowly. Ten of the main Force aircraft had been damaged over the target so we dropped our bombs fairly quickly on Spetzia and back to Scampton. It was an anti-climax really after the — and there we are. We flew back to Bourn that evening after sleeping for the day and Bennett was there to meet us, the AOC, and he was absolutely livid. Relations between him and Cochran were notoriously bad. Cochran was the AOC of the Group, Five Group. And he said, ‘It’s nonsense using four aircraft. If one had been shot down or — you should have used twenty.’ And he felt that the Pathfinders had only been used so that they could be blamed if something went wrong. He was not a happy man. And there we are. That was Operation Bellicose. The raid on — The first shuttle service operation. It was thought at the time that it might be followed by quite a few more but it wasn’t because of the difficulty of serving Lancasters in Algiers. You would have needed a whole force of ground crew out there to — So it wasn’t a one-off, it did happen, I think once more, with a very small group of aircraft but didn’t become a habit. Can we stop there again?
PL: Re-starting tape.
AS: The attack on Spezia, on return from Friedrichshafen, was in fact our thirtieth operation which is the end of a tour. And we expected to go off on our three weeks’ Leave. In Pathfinder Force the arrangements were for a tour of operations were a bit different from those in the rest of Bomber Command. In the main Force, you did thirty operations, then you were given a rest which was said to be at least six months. You were probably an instructor at an OTU and then you could go back for a second tour of twenty operations. But in Pathfinder Force, they didn’t see the point in dispersing a crew after thirty operations. Having got an experienced crew together, hopefully a successful crew together, why not keep them together. So after thirty operations, you got three weeks’ Leave and then you came back and did another fifteen. Not twenty. And to recompense you for going straight through, this was then reckoned to be two tours. Anyway we got back from Spetzia, our thirtieth operation, confidently expecting to go on Leave the next day but the pressure was on and the flight commander, Wing Commander Alabaster said, ‘You’ll have to do two more operations before you can go on Leave.’ So we did two more operations. Both to Cologne. And then we drew our railway warrants and ration cards and went off on three weeks’ glorious Leave and got back in time for the Battle of Hamburg. The first raid on, of the big raids on Hamburg had already taken place while we were still on Leave, on the last night of our Leave. And I’d have liked to have been on that one because as you may know, that was the first night that Window was used. These metallic strips that people dropped. Well they were still very effective when we went the next night and the next night. But I’d have liked to have been able to say I was on the first Windows Operation, but I wasn’t. I was on the second. So at the Battle of Hamburg, and a trip to the Ruhr as well, and then — I’ve lost my place in my Log Book but I shall find it in a moment. [a short pause as he turns pages] It was pretty obvious to us that after Hamburg, Butch Harris, the AOC of Bomber Command, would be looking at Berlin as his next main target. And we got to the middle of August, and you could usually get some idea of targets from the bomb load and the petrol load which was published first thing in the morning on the list of crew, the Order of Battle as it was called. And it looked, for all the world, as though it was a suitable bomb and petrol load for Berlin. And we were a bit astounded because it was full moon and at that time, flying far over Germany in the full moon was not very healthy. The German Fighter Force was becoming increasingly skilful and morale dropped a little bit in the squadron at the thought of going to Berlin in the night of the full moon. But there again, there was nothing we could do about it so we went to briefing and there was a red line — at the end of the briefing room there was a great map across the end wall of course, and there was a red tape attached to the map, going well on the way towards Berlin, but not to Berlin itself. And we were eventually told that the target was Peenemünde. No one had ever heard of Peenemünde of course. So briefing continued and we were told that this was a very important German radar research station. Not a word about rockets of course. And we went through all the usual briefing, the Met Officer, the navigation officer on the route, the bombing leader on the bomb load, the signals officer on the signals to be used, so on and — intelligent officer on defences. But there were a number of additional things. We were told that there would be an attack by seven or eight Mosquitoes on Berlin, which would hopefully keep the Fighter Force away from us. We were told that there would be a massive number of night fighters operating over Germany that night. We were told that we’d be dropping our bombs and target indicators not from twenty thousand feet as we usually did but from eight thousand feet and that there would be a master bomber. And this was the first time a master bomber was being used on a really big Operation. Obviously Guy Gibson kept in touch with his nineteen aircraft on the Dams raid and on that Friedrichshafen raid, we had a master bomber, but it was only sixty aircraft. And this was the first time that a really large force of nearly six hundred aircraft had a master bomber who circled the target and explained to the main force, which were the most accurately placed target indicators to aim for. And also, told when the aiming point was to be changed because the aiming point for the first wave, and we were in the first wave, was the dwelling quarters of the scientists and technicians working at Peenemünde and the second wave was the attack on the factory and the third wave was the attack on the experimental station. So we had our briefing and went and had an operational meal and drew parachutes and escape kit and got dressed and out to the aircraft and a chap with the ground crew as usual and we took off at twenty fifty. Ten to nine. Which was Double British Summer Time, so it was still light when we crossed the coast at Southwold. And out across the North Sea. Again, a lovely night. You know the navigator of course worked behind a black-out curtain over his maps and charts but I couldn’t resist popping out frequently to have a look at the sun and the moon as it came up, shimmering on the sea, silver, and there was hardly any wind and it was absolutely beautiful. And there we were going off to deliver bombs to people. It took about an hour and ten minutes to cross the North Sea and as we approached the Danish coast, there was some activity over on our starboard side and searchlights and flak and the searchlights coned an aircraft and eventually the flak got very close and the aircraft burst into flame and flaming bits started dropping into the sea. And I sometimes give lectures on this to groups like Probus and so on and I always say that I ought really to have felt enormous sympathy for that crew and I probably did but foremost in my mind was the thought, ‘What a rotten bit of navigation.’ Because if they were ahead of us, there must have been another Pathfinder crew. In fact there were other Pathfinder crews and yet their navigator had allowed them to wander over Flensburg, the northern-most town in Germany which was very heavily defended. And they’d paid the price for it. However there was nothing we could do about it so we continued on our way. It took about twelve minutes to cross Denmark and then down over the Baltic Sea. Masses of islands of course. Hundreds of islands, so navigation was a very simple matter. As we got close to Peenemünde, I’d given the bomb aimer and the pilot the ETA and there was a shout from the bomb aimer, ‘There’s a smoke screen ahead.’ And so there was. I’d popped out and had a look and there was a smoke screen over, as we thought, right over the target. And so it was. But a smoke screen blows in line and when you’re like my four fingers, and when you’re looking at it from a distance you can’t see, but as you get increasingly over the top, you can see down, so as we got nearer to the target, we could in fact see the target.
PL: So there were gaps in the smoke screen where you could see down.
AS: Yes, yes. Oh yes, yes. They weren’t — The smoke containers which sent the smoke up were spaced across. They couldn’t have them absolutely close together so there were gaps between these lines of smoke, the wind blew the smoke across, but — So there were some TIs already down. The —
PL: TIs?
AS: The master bomber informed us which were the most accurately placed, so we place our TIs and our bomb, one four thousand pounder there. Hopefully over the living quarters of the scientists and technicians. And there was no defences whatsoever. It was probably the easiest trip we did. And on over the target to take our photo. You had to stay straight and level for twenty-five seconds once your bombs had gone so that the photo could be taken. And then we turned away. We didn’t fly exactly back on the same route because of course we’d have been flying on to the incoming aircraft but just south and once again, out over Denmark I made sure that my pilot stayed well clear of Flensburg. Back across the North Sea, dropped down to — we’d climbed after bombing at eight thousand feet. Back down to where we could take off our oxygen masks and have a cup of coffee and the radio officer had got some light music on the wireless and we had our sandwiches and so back to Bourn. And 97 Squadron had sent eighteen aircraft. One of them had returned early with engine trouble, the other seventeen got back. Not a scratch on them. And so, went to the parachute section first thing to — after a word with the ground crew while we were waiting for transport. Get rid of parachute, back to de-briefing and we were all fairly delighted it looked as if it had been a successful Operation. But one of the things we’d been told at briefing, which I should have said before, the very last thing was that it was essential that this Operation should be successful and if it were not successful, we should have to go again the next night and the next night irrespective of casualties. Now, the first night, you can rely on surprise but if you had to go a second or third time, you couldn’t. So that did concentrate the mind a little bit. So, and so to bed. Operational meal, traditional eggs and bacon and so to bed. Now I’ve always been an early waker-up. Quarter past six this morning. Quarter past six virtually every morning. And I was an early waker-up during the war and even if we were not back ‘till three or four o’clock in the morning. Most of the squadron would sleep through ‘till lunchtime. I never once missed my breakfast. I wouldn’t say I was first up in the morning but I was always in the Mess by nine o’clock. I’d get up about eight and have a shower, because you always felt dirty after a night out in a bomber. They were pretty dirty smelly things, these big bombers. And I would go to breakfast and then I would normally sort of spend the morning hanging around waiting for the crew, the rest of the crew to come round. I’d write up my Log Book, I’d catch up with my correspondence, I’d try the crossword in one of the posh papers and I might practice my snooker skills ‘cause there was no one else in the billiard room. And so on. But that morning, I didn’t do any of those things, I walked up to the Intelligence library to have a look at the photographs, to see how successful, with the thought of that threat still hanging over us. And when I got there, I knew of course from what I’d seen the night before, that it was likely to be successful. And so it proved to be but what absolutely astounded me was that we’d lost over forty aircraft. But I didn’t — Apart from the chap that we’d seen chopped out over Flensburg, we didn’t see any sign of any defences. But what had happened of course, that these German fighters had been circling over Berlin and then the attack was on Peenemünde. It’s only about twenty minutes flying from Berlin to Peenemünde, so those fighters which still had enough petrol and many didn’t, many had to land and refuel, but some of them were able to fly up to Peenemünde and they got in the third wave. And the third wave lost about twenty percent of their aircraft. One in five. The second wave was somewhere in between the two. I think they lost about eight or nine percent of their aircraft, but not as bad as the third wave. So Bomber Command did lose a lot of aircraft that night. And, but at least it was successful. We didn’t have to go again. And that was our fortieth Operation, so we had five more to do to finish our tour. It really was Berlin the next two but by that time, the full moon had gone and we did a couple over to Berlin and we went to, I think, to Nuremberg and once to the Ruhr. And then our last trip was coming up. We did our forty-fourth trip on the 31st of August. Our last trip was coming up and we were briefed to go on the 1st of September to Berlin but Operations were cancelled and the same happened on the 2nd we were briefed to go to Berlin and Operations were cancelled. Now the corporal in charge of our ground crew, a young married man, and the ground crew of course, used to work outside in appalling conditions, not in a warm hangar but out at dispersal. And, they, this corporal was due to go on Leave when we got back on the 2nd after our final Operation, but it was cancelled on the 1st, he wouldn’t go on Leave. When it happened again on the 2nd he wouldn’t go on Leave. He insisted on staying until we had completed our forty-fifth Operation. Well, on September the 3rd, that morning, the invasion of the mainland of Italy started. And we thought, ‘Oh. It would be a nice cushy trip to Milan or Turin for our final Operation,’ because they were really a long way but they were fairly cushy targets. The Italian defences weren’t very wonderful. And. But it wasn’t. We didn’t know of course, but apparently an agreement had already been made with the Italian government that the Italians would surrender and we would stop bombing their major cities. It was Berlin again, by a long route back over Sweden again. Over neutral territory. And we got back and that was our forty-fifth Operation. And most of us decided that, that was enough, but unfortunately Jimmy and two of the gunners stayed with him and it wasn’t. And so there we are. That’s the end of my life in Bomber Command.
PL: That is absolutely wonderful. Thank you very much indeed. Can I just ask you a couple of other things?
AS: Um hum.
PL: The first. So what did you do, so after the war, what did you go on to do then, after you left Bomber Command?
AS: Well, as I said, Bomber Command was equipped with the state of the art radar. And just after I finished Operations, and I mention the fact that Africa had now been cleared of the Germans, and if one listened to the news during ’42, ’43, you heard about a Bomber Force from the Middle East attacking Tobruk, and Benghazi, and it was pretty obvious that when airfields became available, these aircraft would move over to Italy. And, an advert, it wasn’t phrased as an advert, a notice appeared in Daily Routine Orders, asking for someone to instruct in this state of the art radar overseas. Now it didn’t state where overseas, but one didn’t need to be a genius to realise it was going to be the Mediterranean theatre and that these aircraft — so I thought, ‘Well that sounds interesting.’ And I’d only recently been Commissioned. I was a Pilot Officer and it was advertised as a Flight Lieutenant vacancy so I thought, ‘Well, have ago at this.’ And I applied and after the usual air force delay, I found I was accepted and I went home to Southampton on a week’s Embarkation Leave and when I got back, the squadron were kind enough to divert an aircraft, ‘cause I had to go to Blackpool which was the Embarkation Centre, they diverted across country to take me up to Blackpool, which would have saved a nasty train journey. And, I, eventually, we were kitted out for overseas there and had various inoculations and so on, after about a fortnight in Blackpool, up to Liverpool early one morning to get aboard a troop ship which went a long way out into the Atlantic to avoid the — ‘cause the Germans were still in France of course and they had aircraft operating from the south of France against convoys, but we didn’t see any sign of them and back into the Mediterranean and we docked in Algiers and I was in a transit camp there for two or three days and then down to Tunis which was Headquarters of the Mediterranean Allied Air Forces. And there, a Wing Commander looked after me and told me what I was going to do. And apart from the six Wellington squadrons they had, they had one Liberator squadron which was a South African squadron and a Halifax squadron and the Halifax squadron was going to be equipped with the same sort of apparatus that we had in Pathfinder Force and act as what they were going to call a Target Marking Force once they’d got across to Italy. Now that squadron was still in, in the desert, so after spending Christmas at, at Tunis, the Wing Commander and a mate of his, they found out that my French was pretty good so they took me down to Bône market, hoping to get some turkeys for Christmas, for the Mess. But, at the government’s expense, we flew this aircraft down to Bône but went to the market but there were no turkeys. We found a bag of fresh carrots. And I suppose fresh vegetables were something of a relief to people who were living on rations. And we took those back. They were gratefully accepted. And I remember on Christmas Day, I went for a swim in the Mediterranean with a WAAF officer. It was pretty cold, but we wanted to say we’d swum on Christmas Day and we also went and found the amphitheatre at Carthage which is very close to Tunis and I knew a little bit about the Punic wars and so on. So we went and explored Carthage, the amphitheatre at Carthage. And a few days after Christmas, before the New Year, I went down to join this Halifax squadron in the desert, at El Adem, just outside of Tobruk and they were merely sort of kicking their heels really because, waiting to go across to Italy. They would occasionally operate against Crete port installations where the Germans were still in Occupation of Crete. But they weren’t doing very much and I couldn’t do very much with them at that stage, ‘cause they didn’t have any equipment of course. I talked to them, but not very much. Eventually the ground crew all went off, back to the Delta, to go by ship across to Italy and we were left for a week. More or less living on our own devices with no ground crew and the CO, the Wing Commander didn’t have a crew so I was crewed up with him as a navigator and flew across to Italy and the night before we went, we even took the tents down and slept under the wing of the Halifax for the night and the Khamsin was blowing at the time so there was sand everywhere and during that week, a dirty old Arab who used to appear on a donkey which was much too small for him, and he’d have a bucket of eggs, tiny little eggs, but he would barter a half a dozen eggs for a cupful of sugar, so at least you could get a few eggs to fry. And. Anyway we flew over to Italy. All the airfields literally were around Foggia, that area which — [pause as he turns pages] This area around here, it’s, in fact, you’ve got the Apennines running up the middle and a few airfields there but there’s a lot of hills that side of Italy, of course but there were masses of airfields round there and we flew to one of those called Celone and eventually the squadron was equipped with the apparatus so that I got on with my work but eventually I was posted away from the squadron, back to the Group Headquarters because my responsibilities were to the whole Group, not to that squadron. And I decided that having read my Siegfried Sassoon about ‘scarlet Majors at the Base’ ‘And when the war was done, and the youth stone dead, he’d toddle safely home and die - in bed’ and you know, the Hotspur’s criticism of a staff officer assented popinjay in Henry 1V and I decided I ought to do a few Operations. Bennett had insisted on his Staff Operations operating occasionally. In fact on one night, two staff officers turned up and went with the same crew. Much to my surprise. And they went with a pilot with whom I’d done a training exercise once and frankly I wouldn’t have wanted to fly with him on Operations and neither of them came back. The whole crew went missing. Anyway, I felt as staff officer, I would set a good example by going occasionally. And a very interesting Op came up. I used to go to the meeting of the — air staff meeting every morning and there was a guard’s officer there who was responsible for liaison with the Resistance. And he came one morning and said that the Resistance in southern France were going to mount an attack on a German airfield and they would welcome a diversion by an attack on the airfield that night and I thought, ‘That sounds interesting. So. I’ll go along.’ And I went along with this Target Marking Force and dropped flares over this and there were obviously things happening on the ground and this was just before the invasion, so, as a result of that, the French gave me a Légion d’Honneur. [laughs] Which I’ll come back to in a moment. And I did two more with the Target Marking Force and two more in the Wellingtons because the Wellingtons increasingly were, as the Germans withdrew, were being used for supply-dropping over Yugoslavia and so I did a daylight with the Wellingtons over Yugoslavia, dropping supplies to what appeared to be a crowd of bandits in the hills above Sarajevo, who waved enthusiastically to us as the parachutes dropped down. And then a night one, dropped on a big cross, up in the hills behind Trieste and so that was quite interesting really. And eventually after about a year, the air force decided my, I’d done enough, that people were now fully trained and so they sent me home and I thought they’d forgotten about me. They sent me on Leave when I got home. I was on Leave for about five or six weeks. And of course the air force never really forget about you. I eventually got a telegraph to report to such and such a Wing Commander at Astral House, London and I went up and he said, ‘Well what do you want to do now?’ Which surprised me a bit because in the forces, they usually tell you what you’re going to do. [laughs] You know, I must have looked a bit perplexed, so he said, ‘How do you fancy going to Transport Command?’ And I said, ‘Alright. It’s a flying job?’ ‘Yes.’ So I went to Transport Command and flew Dakotas from Croydon to the continental capitals of liberated Europe. And during the Transport Command Training, one had been given the opportunity to get a Civil Air Navigator’s Licence. You had to get a certain percentage of the exams and you had to take an extra paper in Civil Aviation in the war but I did that and got mine. So just after Christmas ’46, there was an advert, again not really an advert, a notice in DRO saying that BOAC were again recruiting navigators. Anyone interested give their name to the Adjunct So I thought, ‘Well this is a good opportunity.’ And so I went off to BOAC. Everyone — there were an enormous number of people of course joining BOAC from the air force at the time and we all came to Whitchurch, just outside of Bristol to their Civil Training School and after a few weeks there, I was, a month, six weeks, I was posted to the flying boats at Poole Harbour. So I could live at home in Southampton and flying to Singapore and back. To Singapore and back took eighteen days for the crew in those days. Took five days for the passengers. No, three days to Singapore and five days to Australia. It was a different world. I sometimes, again, lecture to groups like Probus and Rotary about it because Civil Aviation was so different in those days. So there we are. End of story. Any questions? [laughs]
PL: Many, many questions. So, so then once, so that’s, that’s basically what you did then, you were in Civil, Civil Aviation for a few years.
AS: For eighteen months, yes.
PL: For eighteen months. And then — So how did you get into teaching?
AS: Well, I — in fact I had a place at Southampton University before the war and I didn’t take it up, but I went to a Training College because I wanted to get through fairly quickly. And the Training College in Winchester was giving a shortened course of eighteen months so I didn’t do what they called the Emergency Teacher’s Certificate of a year, but I did eighteen months and I was then qualified a teacher. And the school where I did my final Teaching Practice, the Head offered me a job. So. Which was just outside of Southampton and so I was with him for about seven years and then I came to a more senior post in Bristol. Bristol was one the earliest Authorities to go Comprehensive and then I got a Deputy Headship at the Thornbury. Which is ten miles north of Bristol. Quaint old town. And quite a long time as Deputy Head and I was, someone hinted to me that I ought to apply for this new school at Weston-Super-Mare and —
PL: Which is called —
AS: Priory School. You may have passed it.
PL: And that was a ground-breaking new school.
AS: Oh yeah. You may have passed it, if you came round the Bay, when you turned off the motorway, did you turn right by the Magistrates Court?
PL: I can’t remember.
AS: Almost immediately — or did you come right through — no, you didn’t come right through—
PL: I hugged the — I went on a windy road hugging the, the coast.
AS: Around the coast? Well, you almost certainly passed Priory School. Did you pass Sainsbury’s?
PL: Yes.
AS: Well it’s opposite Sainsbury’s. That’s Priory School, where they’ve just acquired two and a half million pounds to build a new science block and who have they invited to open it? [laughs] And what are they going to call it? The Spencer Science Centre. And the teachers who were trying to teach me science in the 1930s would turn in their graves at the thought of a science centre being named after me.
PL: Well, congratulations. What an accolade.
AS: Well, it’s rather nice isn’t it.
PL: It is. And your — ‘cause I think this is important as part of your story to include. So your school and your experience was used as a case study by the Open University.
AS: Yes. Shall I get the book and show you?
PL: I would love to see the book. Wait one minute though.
AS: Yes.
PL: I just want to, just to sort of wrap up the interview. There’s two questions I want to ask you. The first is, how your family fared during the war. I was interested to hear you say that they were based in Southampton.
AS: Yes.
PL: So did they — everybody stayed in Southampton did they, because —
AS: Yes. I think — The bombing raids on Southampton occurred just after I had left to join the Air Force. Well, there were several daylight raids but the night raids, the big night raids were just after. And after the first one, my father who was working there, continued there but he sent my mother up to Salisbury where we had — which is where I was born. Where we still had relatives. So she was there only during the first one. By the time I was coming home on Leave of course, they were both back in Southampton because the bombing raids were over. One of the things I noticed with my father, who was not a particularly demonstrative person, did come down to the station and see me off each time I went back from Leave and I’ve thought about that quite lot since then.
PL: Very touching.
AS: I didn’t have any brothers or sisters. I was a spoilt only child. [laughs]
PL: They must have been incredibly proud of you. So my last question, which is a question that we’re asked to ask all of our veterans and our volunteers who speak to us is, your feelings about how Bomber Command were treated after the war. Would you like to make any comments about it.
AS: I was a bit surprised that when most of the Great War leaders were made Peers, Harris was not made a Peer. It didn’t worry me a great deal that there wasn’t a memorial. After all, a memorial is only a piece of stone or something with a list of names on. Part of the past. You know that was my only surprise really, that Harris was, didn’t receive the accolade that the other war leaders, Montgomery and so on received. But, Dresden of course, was held against Bomber Command but there was a lot of industry going on in Dresden. There’s a book by an academic at Exeter University, about Dresden, I think it’s out on loan to someone at the moment, but there’s a lot in there about all the industries going on at Dresden at the time. There we are.
PL: Well is there anything else, before we finish, that you’d like to record? About any of your experiences.
AS: No. I probably forgot one or two things on the way through but — [laughs]
PL: I’m sure it doesn’t matter. Well, I’d just like to say again a huge thank-you. That was an absolutely fascinating interview. Thank you very much indeed.
AS: Tell my wife that when she comes. [laughs]
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Interview with Arthur Spencer
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Sound
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Pending review
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ASpencerAHG170227
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Pam Locker
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2017-02-27
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01:11:54 audio recording
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eng
Description
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Arthur Spencer joined the Royal Air Force after leaving school. He began pilot training in Florida but then re-mustered as a navigator and trained in Pensacola. He completed two tours of operations as a navigator with 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa and RAF Bourn. He later became 205 Group's Navigation Officer. He describes dropping target indicators and Window. He was based in Algiers for some time and describes life there. He was awarded the Légion d’Honneur for providing air support for the Resistance in Italy. After the war, he worked for BOAC and then as a teacher.
Spatial Coverage
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Algeria
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
United States
Algeria--Algiers
England--Lincolnshire
Florida--Miami
Florida--Pensacola
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Sarajevo
Italy--Trieste
North Africa
Florida
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
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Cathy Brearley
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
16 OTU
97 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
C-47
crewing up
ground crew
Master Bomber
military ethos
mine laying
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Bourn
RAF Scampton
RAF Swinderby
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Woodhall Spa
Resistance
searchlight
target indicator
training
Ventura
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1128/11651/PSmithAP1801.2.jpg
5005da2dc1fa3c5fe6b15887d2696a7a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1128/11651/ASmithAP180103.1.mp3
6e18c214c8d145f8259a33f8e0f4ec50
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Smith, Arthur Peter
A P Smith
Description
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An oral history interview with Peter Smith (1923 - 2018, 1808854 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 101 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Smith, AP
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Arthur P Smith who is usually known as Peter today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Peter’s home in Kent and it is Wednesday the 3rd of January 2018. So thank you, Peter for agreeing to talk to me today. Perhaps to start the interview you could tell us about your background. Where and when you were born and what your family background was.
PS: Yes. Right. I was born at Wateringbury just outside of Maidstone and my mother and younger sister were working on a farm I’m afraid but that was the way it was in those days. And I stayed there at school at Nettlestead and Wateringbury until I was nine. And then we moved to Paddock Wood where my mother had two sisters because my mother had about nine or ten sisters altogether. So we were all trying to get roughly together. And I went to Paddock Wood School from nine until I was fourteen which was the time in those days practically everybody left school. Boys and girls. And when I was fourteen, in Paddock Wood they had a wood work shop where lots of younger boys could learn woodwork which was quite a good thing in those days and we carried on doing that for two or three years. Then the war started I’m afraid, and you would not believe it but we started making army huts. And I’ve never seen so many army huts in all my life which were going all over England. So of course they were calling up, all the boys for service life and they had to have somewhere to live which was, that was where our army huts were going. And we carried on doing that as, all the time I was there. So then in 19 — the beginning of ’41 a friend of mine, we decided to join the Air Cadets but we had to go to Tunbridge Wells which was a fair cycle ride during the blackout in those days. So we had to go on a Sunday and one day in the week. So, but in the middle of June to July we happened to be going on a Sunday lunchtime and all of a sudden there was a, well it was a dogfight between Germans and English right over our heads at a place called Matfield. I shall never forget it because we sat on the side of the road for about two hours listening to the Battle of Britain and we couldn’t believe it. All of a sudden there were horrible chink chink clink clink and a pile of ammunition hit the road which luckily didn’t hit us so we did worry too much about it. But that went on for sort of two or three hours then. We just sat there until it finished. But in 1941 we, we joined in those days was the Air Defence Cadet Corps. But in 1941 they started the new ATC which a new squadron started at Tonbridge. So we could go there by train so we didn’t have to cycle to Tunbridge Wells anymore. So I joined that and because I’d been in the Air Cadets for quite a long time I found myself being a sergeant very soon. It was only for mostly drill and that sort of thing. So, and then I stayed there ‘til March. March ’43. But in the meantime in the middle of ’42 I’d had a medical but they said because at the moment we haven’t got room for training we’ll put you on deferred service which they gave you a little silver badge which you wore but two people still kept asking, ‘Why aren’t you in the service?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m waiting to go,’ so which I did in March ’43. So, as most people know when you joined aircrew in London it’s so many things to do. Medicals. What you know? Do you know? What you’ve got to know. And we had two weeks in London and then I went to Bridlington for six weeks doing all sorts of training. Aircraft recognition, Morse Code and drill and how to take a gun to bits and put it together and all that sort of thing. And then I think I think I had a weeks’ leave from that and then I went up to Bridgenorth for another six weeks training which was a bit more advanced than what we’d already been doing. And then I finished that six weeks and then they decided that they had a new Air Gunnery School at Dalcross, just outside of Inverness. So I ended up there for another six weeks where I did my six weeks air gunner’s course. So when it ended up, it was a beautiful summer that year and I remember we used to go out flying and the weather was so lovely I don’t think ever once did we have to cancel anything because the weather was beautiful. And all in all by the time we finished I went from an AC2 joining the Air Force to four and a half months and I was a sergeant air gunner, and most people couldn’t believe it because I had a job to believe it as well. But, and then we came home, had some more leave and then I went up to Lichfield which, I think is in Lincolnshire. And I just couldn’t believe it because we went at this, you know and there was about four or five hundred different air crew. Pilots, navigators, wireless ops, bomb aimers. Everything. And everybody was just wandering around smoking, chin wagging, coffee when you could find one. And then I was standing over at a tree looking out over the woods and these two Canadians came over. A pilot and navigator, and they came over, started chatting and the pilot said, ‘Hey mate,’ something like that, because he didn’t know my name, ‘Would you like to fly with me? Or my navigator, and we’ve got a bombardier over there so that’s three Canadians. Would you like to fly with us?’ So I didn’t know any better so I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll fly with you.’ ‘Ok,’ he says, gave him my name and everything and they took it down and went over and saw, there was a couple off officers sitting at this table writing everything down. And then they said, ‘Oh, well, come and we’ll introduce you to the wireless operator.’ And then that, at the moment was all our crew which was five. Just the navigator, pilot and bomb aimer, wireless op and me, the other gunner. And then they said, ‘Right. All get in a lorry,’ and went to a little sort of well it’s just a little aerodrome called Sleap which was the OTU where we started to learn all our air [pause] I don’t know what you’d call it. Instruction I suppose. And we were flying Whitleys and the pilot said, ‘Well, I like them,’ because they’d got two nice, I believe, Merlin engines I think. I think, but and they had a rear gun. And we did where the pilot and I, I can’t remember how many circuits and landings we did but I know we kept on for about a week. Circuits and landings about ten times a day for a week and then we started doing sort of small cross countries for about probably an hour. Then we kept doing that and then we started doing bombing trips as well so the bomb aimer could get some time in and the wireless operator. We all did sort of different jobs just to get more, well so we knew what we were doing. And then we did that. We was there for about six or seven weeks. And they found out that we got so many crews they didn’t know where to put them. So I think I remember we went home for about two weeks again. Then we went back. We went back to the same OTU for a week. And then they decided to send us to a Heavy Conversion Unit which was a Halifax and the pilot said he was a bit annoyed about that because he didn’t want to fly on a Halifax. He wanted Lancs. And so we did four or five weeks in this Halifax. Mostly circuits and landings again for about a week. And then we started doing more bombing trips, and trips for the wireless operator and a lot of more cross countries but all our flying was over England. And we did, oh quite a few cross countries and then I can’t actually remember the time but I think it must have been sort of October perhaps something like that. Maybe November. But then we got another week’s leave because we got so many crews lined up we didn’t know what to do with them. So we had another week and then we went back to [pause] Oh God, I can’t remember. No. It wasn’t Coningsby. No. I can’t remember the name but we went back to another Conversion Unit which was a Lancaster Finishing School which made the pilot happy. So we got back to there. I think it was somewhere around about the beginning of November which we started doing cross countries, bombing trips for about four or five weeks. And then we had another weeks holiday and then we ended up back at, or back at Ludford Magna which we didn’t know was a bomber station in those days because it hadn’t been going, only I think since about the middle of July and we went there just before Christmas ’43. Then we did another few cross countries, bombing trips, all in training. And then they said to my pilot, ‘You’re going on a second dickie tonight.’ So, I don’t know if you know but Canadians had a Commissioner in London. So if you didn’t agree with some things you used to go and see the Commissioner and they would sort it out you hoped. Anyway, my pilot said, ‘I’m not going.’ And he wouldn’t go because, you don’t probably know but quite often if that pilot went on a trip with a operational crew it was always surprising the number of pilots went missing. And the crew were left at home with no pilot. So that crew either had to get another pilot or start training again. So anyway my pilot said, ‘I’m not going,’ which he didn’t go. So about two or three nights later they said, ‘Right. You don’t want to go on a cross country. You can go on a raid.’ So that’s the 27th of January we went to nine hours to Berlin. And we’d never been out of the country before and that was the first trip. They said, ‘You’ll be alright. You can have a rest tomorrow night.’ Of course we didn’t. We just were just sort of thinking about getting up when we got called in. ‘You’re going to Berlin again tonight.’ So, which we did. And then we had a weeks’ leave from there. And then we came back. Then I think, I think we did another Berlin. I think we did about three in a row and then we started doing Schweinfurt, all the —
[recording paused]
CJ: So you’ve got your list there.
PS: Yeah.
CJ: Of the raids you went on.
PS: Yeah. Yes. Well, I have a list here of all the raids we did. And we did the first three were Berlin. And then Leipzig, Stuttgart, Schweinfurt, Augsburg, two more Stuttgarts and then two to Frankfurt. And then we did a fourth Berlin. That was middle of March. And then Essen. And then we went to that horrible Nuremberg where we had the worst night of the war as far as Bomber Command went because we lost ninety six aeroplanes of just Bomber Command. And we lost seven aeroplanes from Ludford Magna which was, the old sergeant’s mess was a bit quiet on the next morning, 30th of March. I’ll never forget that one. And then after that we started doing a few to France. Another one called [unclear] Aachen, and then we went to Cologne. Dusseldorf. Karlsruhe. Another one to Schweinfurt and [unclear] Hasselt, Cologne, Duisburg, Dortmund and two to Aachen which was back in Germany. Then we did two in France. A place called Trappes. And then on the thirtieth of, our thirtieth trip we went to do the big guns at Calais which was quite a nice trip. Only just over three hours. We were home, back to bed in four hours. Lovely. And then the next night we thought well we’ve finished our thirty. That’s us finished. But they, after that which was the 5th of June they said, ‘You haven’t finished yet because you’ve got one more. Everybody.’ And that was a special duty operation which we thought well what special duty? So this night, the only night we didn’t carry any bombs but all the aircraft were filled with Window which was a type of paper which was used to interrupt or stop the German radio from working properly. But so we spent all night going from Dover to Paris dropping this Window all night which, well it wasn’t quite all night, it was only six and a half hours but, but all two squadrons were just going backwards and forwards all night dropping this Window. Then when we decided to go home we couldn’t think, we got the other side of London and we saw sort of hundreds of aeroplanes all going the other way. Going towards France. So we didn’t quite figure it out until we got back and landed and then they told us that the, all the troops and everything had gone across the Channel and were invading France. We didn’t see anything ‘til we got home which was, well we thought it was quite good. But in that time I was at Ludford Magna we lost seven hundred and thirty nine aircraft from the time we were landed. And we lost five thousand two hundred airmen in our time.
CJ: Yeah. And did you talk about that much on the base or was it something you just —
PS: Oh, you didn’t talk about it at all. No. You just [pause] well we were lucky in one way because we had six NCOs. Only one officer. Only the pilot was the officer. And we were lucky in another way that we had a small hut. Just us six. So it was just us. Well, and as I say the pilot used to spend most of his time with us and just go home to bed. You know, eat or drink sort of thing. But other than that we sort of lived in that hut on our own you know. Yeah.
CJ: So, how did you pass your time on the base when you weren’t on ops?
PS: Well, I used to play a lot of badminton. I know I couldn’t play all day but and they took, we took over one of the hangars, or we had two badminton courts painted on the floor sort of thing, you know. And there was four, five, six of us who quite often played badminton. And I I got my bicycle there as well and quite often, well quite often but maybe once or twice a week I used to cycle out for the day, you know or to [pause] I can’t remember the name of the village now but we went to, you know riding around just for something to do. There was two or three of us used to cycle around because it was alright cycling in those days because you didn’t see only about four, four cars a day because they just wasn’t about which was quite nice. And there was plenty of places to cycle and quite little tea shops. All, even in war time there was little tea shops around. So all in all with badminton and cycling we didn’t do too bad. And the navigator and I always, if possible we went to church on Sunday morning. And we were the only two in our crew. But we thought that was quite nice. We thoroughly, we really enjoyed it, but on a Sunday morning and there used to be always quite a few local people there. A very good church service.
[pause]
CJ: So when you were going on a raid, on ops how were you told and how did you prepare for it?
PS: What happened? What happened? Even though, if we’d been on a raid the night before we didn’t used to get up until lunchtime. So we’d always go to lunch but normally if you got up for breakfast there’d be a notice on the board, “Meeting at 10 o’clock,” which everybody had to go to. Every flyer had to go to. And you would see around about there’d be policemen around about making sure that odd people can’t get in anywhere. And then you’d all go to the crew room and the CO and that would walk in and mention ops tonight. And then he’d say, ‘Make sure you have your meals and everything,’ And there’d be another meeting at probably three hours before you went on a trip. So you went to the meeting and the navigation people and the bloke in charge of the weather.
CJ: Meteorologist.
PS: Yeah. And he would tell you what the weather was going to be like. Possible to where you were going. And there would be a big notice across the top of the board where you were going which used to make you wake up a bit. And they’d tell you all the different places roughly where you’d go over or around and then they’d tell you what bomb load you’d got and what petrol load you’d got, because if you were only going sort of the middle of France or the entrance to Germany you never took a full bomb load which was twenty one thousand two hundred and fifty four petrol. Which quite often you didn’t take a full bomb load. And then you would, about two hours before you went you could go and have supper which was always egg and chips for supper. Every time. Same old thing. Egg and chips. And then quite, that’s it. You’d get a lift on a lorry to take you to the crew room. Then, being the gunners, the two gunners we had to wear more cold weather suits than anybody else because the front five of the crew were, being up in the front of the aircraft they got hot air from two of the engines which we didn’t have in the two turrets. But just before I went there they’d arranged to have electrically heated flying suits, or a suit you wore under your outer suit which had wire to your arms and legs and you had slippers on which were electrically heated and gloves and your body waist coat. But you never had nothing around your legs. Only the wire that went to your feet. By the time you’d got all your gear on, four pairs of socks, I’d got a nice pair of silk stockings and ordinary shoes and a great big pair of flying socks as well. By the time you’d got them on you had a job to walk. And the suit was a great big suit that you wore over the top of everything. And I always used to wear a silk scarf because I always sort of felt I, my head was always cold. But I never felt cold in my hands and feet which was a good thing. But then one night we, we’d come halfway back and you found the oxygen wasn’t working. So we managed to get the oxygen bottles and stick them on but my ears really froze so bad that the lobes were frozen more or less for about a week before they came back into real circulation which I, which I didn’t fancy very much. But then another night we came all the way back from Berlin with no rear turret because the outer port engine used to work the rear turret which of course the engine didn’t worked. The only time we had ever had anything go wrong was that one engine when I couldn’t use the turret. Other than that we had thirty one trips with nothing really went wrong. Absolutely superb aeroplane. And I always think we had a really good pilot which I’ll show you what he did in a minute. But, and other than that I don’t think we never got attacked once. Saw quite a few fighters but we were told unless they actually attacked don’t let them know where you are. You want to come back. So I never fired my guns once at all. Only just to test them sort of thing. Never fired them at anything. But quite often over the target, because when you looked over the target it was like a beautiful big bonfire which it was, and you could see lots of fighters criss-crossing the raid and quite a few Lancaster’s as well but what I was more frightened about than anything was running into another aeroplane. A Lancaster. I wasn’t worried about anything else because unless you sort of have been there and seen the number of aircraft that you’re all flying the same way. I mean sometimes we were having eight hundred more aeroplanes all going the same way and all being over the target within sort of thirty, forty, fifty minutes. Which is a lot of aeroplanes going the one way and, but luckily enough I mean quite often you’d see a great big bang where you know two aeroplanes have collided. I mean you saw more of that than you see of anything going wrong really. That was more frightening than anything else because I just didn’t fancy, well I didn’t fancy falling out the aircraft where you don’t know where you’re going. So there again we were so lucky. Yeah.
CJ: So what would your responsibilities have been as the rear gunner then if you were attacked?
PS: Well, if you were attacked well it all depends. They used to sort of, they didn’t sort of come down they always came up under your back side. And it was a thing to keep your eyes open sort of level down because if a fighter was coming up he was probably coming up from the darkness wasn’t he? And you’ve got to try and see him before he sees you. But, and if he did it’s your, to attack and tell the pilot what to do. I mean if they sort of come around to the left you’d want to go to the left. You’d tell the pilot, ‘Corkscrew left,’ you know, sort of thing as quick as possible. Or right or whatever and just well just hope for the best every time. But as I say we were just so lucky that it didn’t happen. But as I say we, we were never attacked once and everything all those trips over to Germany but just well you think there’s thirty there and we was never attacked once. You can’t be much more lucky than that can you? I don’t think you can anyway.
CJ: So, what happened to you and your crew when you’d done your thirty first op?
PS: Well, we had two or three days together and then we all had, I can’t remember, I think we had about a fortnight’s holiday. We went, I can’t remember where we went back to but I went back to —
[pause – pages turning]
CJ: So you went back to where?
PS: Yeah. So when I finished there I went back to 27 OTU Lichfield which was another trainee OTU for trainee aircrew which was Wellingtons. And I was there for well, where are we? [pause] I was there, I was there for three months and then they eight or nine aircrew they came in one morning and said, ‘You’re all going to learn to drive. You’re going to Blackpool.’ So we said, ‘Oh lovely. That’s alright.’ But one or two of the blokes could drive anyway but then we all went anyway. But in the end ended up ten of us went to Blackpool to learn to drive. Because I didn’t know how to do it but two or three had already driven. But in there we used to go down the, where all the lorries and things were about 8 o’clock in the morning. And then we’d have perhaps two hours being told all what makes a lorry and car go, and all how to repair it. How to take a wheel off. Everything. Everything about a car. But we had like two hours every day and then we’d go and have two hours driving around the aerodrome. Well, it wasn’t an aerodrome. It was a driving school. We’d have two hours driving round and then after lunch we’d have another two hours learning how to put the lorry together. Then in the afternoon we’d have another two hours driving through Blackpool. There weren’t many cars about in those days but we did this for six weeks. Oh, God it was shocking but in the end we all passed because they just used to say, ‘Drive.’ You were just told what to do and we did it and they’d say, ‘You pass.’ We didn’t have like it is now. But we all did that and then they said, ‘Righto.’ We’d got another week’s leave and when you came back they said oh I’m going to RAF Gravely which is in Norfolk, not too far from Cambridge which was a PFF Lancaster squadron and a Mosquito squadron and we were, you know just joined all the, all the other LAC drivers and that. But most of us were ex-aircrew and when we used to drive around because we used to pick up the aircrew which were going on ops. We used to drive a mini bus and take them out to the ops. A lot of these aircrew said, ‘How do you get a job like this?’ Which was quite laughable really because we’d already, us, had already done our tour, but they didn’t know that. But we used to explain to them what we’d already done and you know of course they didn’t like it very much but as I said, ‘Well, you finish your ops you can get a job like this.’ But, and we used to go to the other side of Cambridge and get a load of bombs in a lorry. We used to think it was hilarious in those days. Get a load of bombs and drive them back from Cambridge to Graveley. Oh, my goodness. So I had about, about three months there and then they said, ‘Oh, you’re going back to OTU.’ I said, ‘What on earth for?’ ‘Well,’ they said, ‘You’ve got to get up to date with what you know.’ So I went back to an OTU. I think that was back to Lichfield. And I was there for two or three weeks and then I got posted to another squadron, another OTU and much to my amazement I ended up with three Australian aircrew who hadn’t been on any ops. So of course when I found out I’d got myself another crew with three Australians and the other gunner was a boy I’d known in the Air Cadets in Tonbridge before joining aircrew. And anyway we started our training on Wellingtons and we did about three or four weeks training and they dropped the first, well we, we were told we were going to Japan before, when we started. And then they dropped the first atom bomb but that was only three or four days before they dropped the second one wasn’t it? If you can remember. So anyway they dropped the second one and within two or three days all the war in Japan was finished wasn’t it? And within a fortnight the three Aussies were on their way home because we, they said we don’t want them anymore. So they were all back home after about three or four weeks after that. And then [pause] I can’t remember. Oh yeah. Then they decided because this is sort of nearly the end of ’45 wasn’t it? And they said, ‘Oh, we’re sending you to Cranwell.’ I said, ‘Why the Dickens are we going to Cranwell?’ They said, ‘You can learn to be a teleprinter operator.’ So I said, ‘Right.’ They said, ‘You can get a ground job now. You won’t have to fly anymore.’ So anyway I did this. There was about ten of us. All ex-aircrew learning to use a typewriter. So we had this. I think it’s about seven or eight weeks I think training and to be this teleprinter. And then in the end there was a Scotsman which was, he was about six foot six tall, massive, and another Londoner, flight engineer and we were posted to 19 Group Coastal Command in Plymouth. So goodness gracious me. We went to this place and there was three airmen and of course nearly all the other operators were all WAAFs. About twenty of them, you know and it was Coastal Command. A place called well Mount Wise, or something. Mountbatten, which was in Plymouth Harbour. It’s Coastal Command. Anyway being us, us three men they decided they wouldn’t let us work at night so in the end we ended up only doing about three or four shifts a week because they didn’t want us at night. They wouldn’t have three airmen with the WAAFs at night. I mean, I know there was only probably about four or five WAAFs at night but a dozen or so in the day because there was a whole row of teleprinters. So I was there for just over a year and I think it was about one of the best, well Devonshire weather I’ve ever known. It was beautiful. And what we used to do if we wasn’t on that day we’d go down the road, we’d get on the first bus that came along, pay a shilling and when we got to that shilling we’d get off and walk home. That’s what we did every day. Yeah. It was just something to do. But the weather was just absolutely fantastic. And then I was there for Christmas ’46 and I got, oh God [pause] not laryngitis. What’s the other thing you get in your throat? Oh God. There was something wrong with my throat and the doctor said I’ll give you, no, not penicillin. Yeah penicillin. And of course that really upset me so I had to come off of that. But something else he give me and I’ve never had anything wrong with me throat since that day. You would not believe it. Never had this what it was. Not, laryngitis I think it was. Yeah. I was going to have it done and it didn’t and then he told me, he said, ‘Whatever you do never take — ’ no, it wasn’t paracetamol, it’s Penicillin. He said, ‘Whatever you do never taken penicillin anymore.’ So I never have. In all, I’ve had different things. And so I’ve never taken penicillin anymore. So it doesn’t cure everybody. But whatever the other thing that it was. And then in January we had this horrible fog and that’s when I went to London and got demobbed. Then I had another three weeks paid. Three months paid holiday which was very nice. That’s my life, near enough.
CJ: So what did you do after demob?
PS: Well, I had another mate. He’d, he’d been in the RAF but he didn’t fly. And about June or July we decided, we used to, he got a motorbike and started, got a motorbike and we used to drive around on a motorbike for two or three months. Nothing else much to do. But then we decided to go fruit picking. So of course the middle of Kent there was plenty of apples, pears, plums and I think, I think we did plums and pears I think first and then we went to apple. But we made a fortune because you used to get paid at so much a bushel. Well you could pick a bushel of big apples in ten minutes and then you got so much for it you know. Cor we made some money. We used to make ten bob a day and then go home. Which was a lot of money in 1947. Cor it was wonderful. Course then we had this motorbike and we would sort of do a half a days work and then go to the seaside. We had a wonderful time. And then come to, coming up to Christmas my father had been a male nurse in a mental [unclear] and he said, ‘Why don’t you give it a go?’ So I don’t know if you know, ever heard of Chartham. If you know Canterbury. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s where he’d been. So I went there and got talking to the boss and he found my father had been there before the First War because my father went in the Army as a, well a rifleman. He was a first aid bloke as well. You know, he did it all sort of thing and he got away with it alright but then he got rheumatic fever. That’s the only thing. Which didn’t do him any good, and I say I had three years a mental nurse. That’s where I met my wife. So from there on it was us. But I didn’t mind the work but I just couldn’t be, stand being indoors in the end because quite often you’d be indoors for a whole week. Indoors, you know. Not, not in and out doors but indoors looking after patients, you see. After three years I decided I couldn’t stand anymore so I, I, then we got married and then another friend of mine he rang up. He said, ‘We want a cowman.’ And I thought oh my God. I didn’t know anything about milking cows. So we went to this farm because it had a nice, a nice little bungalow and everything and learned all about milking cows. But then they decided to set up after a while to sell the milk that we produced. Then in the end we used quite often I’d milk the cows, have my breakfast and go and deliver the milk. So we had, and in the end we had three milk rounds and I used to do, sort of this one this week, that one then. Milk it, deliver it and everything else. So we did that for ten years. Well, I know people say, you know farm work and all that sort of thing but it was quite interesting. You know, it was interesting. You know. Say milking. Looking after, looking after the cows, doing all the milking and bottling up and everything and delivering it and keeping everything running. And we made it work too because it was, well it was a big farm because we had our own cows. All outdoors as well and, well they had to be indoors in the winter. But we had ten years there. And then after that another, another friend rung up and he said, ‘We want a baker’s roundsman in Chatham.’ Well, and of course, God what am I letting my insides for?’ But he said, ‘Come and have a look.’ So I did and the pay was about four times I was getting on the farm. I was on this estate for twenty years delivering bread. This estate and another estate. It was alternate days, you know. Then the baker showed up in the end. Then I went to work for BP over the Isle of Grain. I did four or five years there. And then that packed up. That sold up. God, what did I do after that? I can’t remember. I can’t. You know what —
CJ: Coming back to the RAF.
PS: Yeah.
CJ: Did you manage to keep in touch with some of the crew that your flew with? I think —
PS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he and I are the only two left now. The rest are all dead.
CJ: So some of these are Canadian you said are in the crew.
PS: Yeah. That one. That one. That one. Then my navigator he said, ‘We’re coming over to England in the summer.’ I forget, somewhere in the summer. Anyway, we lived, we lived here and he came over. He and his wife came over for four weeks and of course I’d, I had a car so we went about. I looked after him for a week and then they went up to the Midlands somewheres. Somewheres near where that motorbike came from. They went up there three weeks. Then they came back. Then in, I forget when it was but then in 1980 he said, ‘Why don’t you come over? We’ve got a big reunion in Toronto.’ So, oh yeah I managed to get three weeks off from the bakery so he said, so, there was only Margaret and I, so we went to Saskatchewan and they picked us up at Toronto and we went to [pause] oh God. Anyway, we went to this Saskatchewan and we went to this mess. There was five thousand people in a room. Men and women. About three thousand men and women. And it was wonderful. It really was. A big meal. Plenty of people to talk to and you would not believe but one of the people there was the chief of the German night fighters. He was there for a, yeah he was. Cor, he was quite a well-known name but he was a chap, the bloke in charge of the German night fighters. He was there on holiday. And I say that was really good. And then about forty two we went to Canada again for a month’s holiday. And then ’84 we had another big reunion. About, about another, you know five odd thousand. My navigator, he’d got a little, nice big buggy we could all sort of sleep in it if we wanted to, but we didn’t. He took us right across, right across Canada which was absolutely fantastic. Thoroughly enjoyed it. And then we went and stayed with them again. Then my wife’s sister decided to go to America. To her daughter. So in the end we went four weeks to Salt Lake City. And cor it’s a place that is. Believe me. And so we had a, going around there, and we had another in the end he got a sleep van. What do you call it?
CJ: A camper.
PS: Camper. Oh God, my bloody brain. And so we went half way across salt err Grand Canyon. Well, it’s the big Grand Canyon. All up in the mountains, everywhere. Played snowballs in June and all that sort of thing. We had a lovely time again. And soon after they all went and died so we didn’t go anywhere.
CJ: So while you’ve been talking, just for the listener we’ve been looking at a wonderful photograph of you and your crew.
PS: Oh yeah.
CJ: Around a motorbike and sidecar. So you used this when you were on the base did you?
PS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course he, well he got in touch with his friends in, I think it was Birmingham I think, and because he knew they’d be, apparently he’d known them before the war or something. And anyway —
CJ: So on the photograph this is the gentleman sitting actually on the bike.
PS: That’s the navigator.
CJ: Yeah.
PS: The pilot in there as well. We used to get, quite often got four on it. Then we went out to dinner somewhere, you know.
CJ: Yeah. And how did you manage to find the petrol to keep it going when it was so scarce?
PS: Well, I don’t know. We just used to park it behind as I say that’s not our hut, but we had a little hut. We just used to park it behind the hut and every time we went and got it it had petrol in it so it must have made it in the night. Well, it worked alright. And as I say we quite often got four on it no trouble.
CJ: So, so for the listener when they see this photograph online you’re the gentleman in the middle row. Sorry the back row in the middle.
PS: The middle. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s as I say this is the flight engineer, and he was the radio operator. That was the mid-upper and I was the tail gunner and there’s the bomb aimer.
CJ: So coming back to Bomber Command after the war. Do you have any opinions on how Bomber Command were treated after the war?
[pause]
PS: No. Because, because we, well we had a big Bomber Command Society thing. Aircrew Association. And well, right up right up to about a few years ago we were going. But we had over a hundred in Maidstone but they’re nearly all dead now. I’ve got a book in there it’s about eighty odd signatures. Well, not signatures. I used to take our Standard. And there’s eighty odd signatures there from the hundred odd we had. I mean when we used to have dinners and dances we had a hall full. I mean up ‘til last year we probably got four, five, six of us go to a local pub in Maidstone. Yeah. Well, we haven’t been this. Didn’t go. The last six months we haven’t been. But we’ve still got four or five of us, you see. Yeah.
CJ: And have you been able to visit any, view any Lancasters in museums?
PS: Well, as I say I’ve been to [pause] oh golly.
CJ: Duxford is it?
PS: Well, I say Duxford. I’ve been there. And the one in London. What’s the one in London?
CJ: Hendon.
PS: Hendon. I’ve been there. Yeah. Oh, I’ll tell you another one I like is East Kirkby.
CJ: Just Jane.
PS: Pardon?
CJ: Just Jane.
PS: That’s it. Yeah. Well, quite often when we used to have the reunion in Lincoln we used to have the dinner in Lincoln and then we’d go to Ludford for a service and that. But when we went there we used to go to stay with my wife’s sister at Newark and, you know because we could drive home from Lincoln to Newark no trouble. But then we used to go to, on the Monday, always on the Monday we’d go to East Kirkby and spend the day there. Then if I, two or three times I met my wireless operator there. And then this other bloke Rod Moore I think they might have let you know about this thing, he’s there. And we used to spent the day there and I got to know the two brothers. But one died didn’t he?
CJ: The Panton brothers.
PS: Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Well, the two. I’ve got a book there signed by them somewheres. By the two brothers and the, and the sister. And I got there one day and he said, ‘Come on,’ so we went over, got in the aircraft, got in the aircraft for about two hours. Just sitting around, you know looking. I got down the rear turret. And then when I had my eighty fifth birthday a lot of my friends, because we had a lot of these, a lot belonged to our aircrew by then. Still. They all put two or three or four quid in a pot and we got enough money to go up to East Kirkby, sit in the turret and go around the airfield. Yeah. Because it’s, I think it was, I think it’s about a hundred and twenty pounds, a hundred and thirty pounds in those days just to ride around the airport. As you probably know. Get four engines going you soon get rid of a couple of gallons of petrol. But we used to go around. I’ve got a photograph somewhere of my daughter because she ran around. She ran all the way around the bloody airfield behind taking photographs of me sitting in the rear turret. Yeah. Cor, she ran some miles that day. But as I say I sat in the back. We got there on this, I think Monday morning and the man who had already signed to sit in the turret didn’t turn up. So I already told them the day before if anything goes wrong I want to get in the turret which I did. But it, it was a .5 turret. I don’t know if you know the difference. You probably do. But, but it wasn’t as good. I had the first .5 turret at Ludford, at 101. The, the boss man he knew two brothers from the local village who were mechanics and they made a .5 turret. It was about two or three inches wider than the old .5 and what was good about it you could just about get two people in it and you could sit on the seat and you’d got no glass in the front. The whole front was clear. You didn’t have to bale out the back. You could bale out head first straight out the, and you didn’t have to have one of these sit ons, well it was but you didn’t have one of the old clip on parachutes. You could have one of these sit on ones and you just sit here like that and if the worst comes to the worst head first straight out the back and you was away. Really super. But the .5 turret at East Kirkby is not the same gun as I had in Ludford because the one I had in Ludford was up here like this. But the one they had in East Kirkby was the guns were in front of you. In the way. And you had a job to get in it because the was the seat was different.
CJ: So when you’re saying a .5 turret for the listener that doesn’t know the difference the original guns were .303.
PS: Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. There would be four guns in a normal Lancaster are 303 but when we got the .5s they were bigger guns, bigger ammunition which was the American type like they had in all their Flying Fortresses. They had all .5s. Yeah. It’s quite good actually. They made more noise too.
CJ: How did it feel to be sitting in the turret again?
PS: Yeah. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. Good. When it was going around the airfield it didn’t half go around every time. I don’t know how my daughter kept up because she ran all the way around. Yeah. Yeah. She got some good photographs. But I was going to [pause] there’s my pilot.
CJ: Well, I think we’ve covered everything today, Peter. Thanks ever so much for talking to us today.
PS: Oh, it’s my pleasure.
CJ: For the —
PS: It’s nice to see you. It’s nice to talk.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Arthur Peter Smith
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASmithAP180103, PSmithAP1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:12:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Smith was born in Kent and attended school until he was 14. He started working for a woodwork shop and when the war began, they started building army huts. In 1941 he joined the Air Cadets. He recalls how one Sunday he and a friend saw an aerial dogfight which they watched for two hours. They heard and saw spent ammunition landing on the ground close to them.
In 1942 he attended his RAF medical and was given deferred service. He was called up in March 1943 and attended various training courses to become a rear air gunner. Posted to RAF Lichfield he formed up with his mainly Canadian crew before moving on to an Operational Training Unit flying Whitley’s. At a Heavy Conversion Unit his crew moved to Halifax’s and finally Lancasters. In November 1943 they were posted to RAF Ludford Magna with 101 Squadron. Their first operation took place on 27th January 1944 to Berlin. Peter lists the German towns he was sent to on operations, including Nuremberg in March when the squadron lost seven aircraft. His thirtieth operation was against large guns at Calais. Normally the end of a tour, they were asked to carry out a special duties' operation on the night of 5th June 1944. They flew back and forth between Dover and Paris dropping Window, foil strips, out of the aircraft. It was not until they returned to the station that they were told it was part of the invasion of Europe.
He describes what he did in his spare time and the preparation for operations. Over the thirty-one operations he flew, Peter says that he never had to fire his guns even though he did see some night fighters. Only on one occasion did their aircraft have trouble, when one engine stopped working and there was no power to his rear turret. He describes the various roles he had after completing his tour until he was demobbed in January 1947.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Staffordshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Nuremberg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943-11
1944-01-27
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
101 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Normandy deception operations (5/6 June 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lichfield
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Sleap
training
Whitley
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/49/405/PBencinaA1601.2.jpg
82e577e5a2621e770cfb23d487af4d04
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/49/405/ABencinaA160801.2.mp3
410c33dde5e7246477ad82286630c7a2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bencina, Angelo
Angelo Bencina
A Bencina
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Angelo Bencina who recollects his wartime experiences in Monfalcone.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bencina, A
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: Sono Alessandro Pesaro e sto per intervistare Angelo Bencina per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre. Siamo a Monfalcone, in provincia di Gorizia ed è il primo agosto 2016. Grazie per aver permesso quest’intervista. Sono inoltre presenti all’intervista il signor Tullio Sarcina, Pietro Comisso, Maurizio Radacich, Giulia Sanzina. Prima di cominciare vorrei farle alcune domande per essere sicuro che questa intervista venga registrata esattamente come desidera. È d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso l’università di Lincoln, esclusivamente per scopi non commerciali, che l’università di Lincoln ne abbia il copyright e che infine essa sia liberamente accessibile in qualsiasi supporto e formato per mostre, attività di ricerca, istruzione e come risorsa online?
AB: D’accordo.
AP: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
AB: D’accordo.
AP: È d’accordo ad essere fotografato per l’International Bomber Command Centre?
AB: E sono d’accordo.
AP: Grazie. Possiamo cominciare. Come prima cosa, vorrei che lei mi raccontasse il più vecchio dei suoi ricordi. Che cosa si ricorda? Qual’è la cosa più antica che riesce a ricordare? Dov’era, cosa faceva?
AB: Innanzitutto bisogna calcolare che mi gavevo quatro ani perciò nel ’44 eh non xe che, insomma go tante memorie de attività che go fatto eccetera eccetera. Quel che me ricordo, la prima cosa che me xe restà impressa, disemo xe appunto il bombardamento de quel che me ricordo. Eh, sì, prima di tutto devo dir che mi abitavo, iero tra la stazion de Monfalcòn, vicin Via Randaccio disemo, Androna Randaccio e Via Romana. In pratica ierimo tra la stazion, la fabrica del gesso, la fabrica dell’oio, dopo iera la Solvay, iera la, in pratica, e dopo el cantier. In pratica, in pratica lì iera quasi tutti quanti. E quel che me ricordo più de tuto xe stà una sera che ga sonà, non xe che mi go sentì che ga sonà l’alarme ma i miei, i miei genitori, a un certo momento, i me ga ciapà, i me ga inbalado, disemo, e mi, qua go anche che ve go fato la cartina dove che abitavimo, in pratica semo circa a cento metri dalla stazion. Da lì se doveva andar alla Caverna Vergine, che xe altri cento metri su, oltre le sine, dove che iera un, intanto iera due rifugi, iera il rifugio della Caverna Vergine dopo là il rifugio iera dei pipistrei, Caverna dei Pipistrei, dopo più a sinistra iera altri ma quel lì xe una cosa che, in Via Romana iera altro, tutta roba della Prima Guerra Mondiale comunque. Quel che me ricordo mi xe questo: ciapado, imbalado, noi gavevimo una, dopo ve mostro lì se ve interessa, se andava da un passagio de un nostro vicin, se andava in Androna Randaccio, se piazzavimo, disemo, proprio davanti al piazzal della stasion, in quel momento lì, i me ga buttado, me papà, me mama iera lì, drio el mureto - che ve mostro anche quel iera fino a poco tempo iera proprio l’originale che xe el bar lì dalla stazion, quel fora - e lì semo stai sò ma mi me gaveva girà e quel che mi me ga restado ma molto impresso ancora oggi iera il ciel carigo de tondi rossi, de luci rosse e bianche, ecco quella roba lì xe quel che me ricordo che non, che me ricordo punto e basta. El resto neanche non me sono accorto che i me ga ciapà, me ga inbragado e semo andai in caverna, no. Ecco, quel se quel che mi me ricordo de quella notte. Per il ritorno neanche, probabilmente dormivo non so cosa, punto e basta. Un’altra roba che me ricordo sempre de quei giorni lì, però non iera de notte ma iera de giorno, andando sò da l’attuale, xe bon iera anche la vecia, xe, disemo la strada che dalla staziòn porta giù verso la fabbrica della pegola quella che xe lì a, ma porco cen, bon adesso non me vien in mente, Via Belforte e non la iera, non la iera disemo asfaltada, el iera de giorno però. In quel momento sentimo un rumor de aerei, vedemo cioè ierimo muli, muleria che zogavimo lì sò per la riva e iera dei apparecchi che gaveva due fusoliere, cioè non iera una sola ma iera due, e quel che ne restà impresso dove che andavimo, i buttava, iera tanti foglietti, non iera foglietti, iera come de argento, biglietti de argento che iera el ciel pien, pien, e luccicava perché era de giorno. E proprio qua davanti me xe passà un pacchetto cussì, che se vedi che non se ga sfoiado, e me xe cascà proprio addosso, dopo gò savu che i diseva che quelli serviva per confodere i radar eccetera eccetera, quella roba lì xe quel che me ricordo. Questo per quanto riguarda i bombardamenti de Monfalcòn. Dopo un poco, siccome mia mama la xe furlana, no, semo andai, questo qui non c’entra coi bombardamenti, penso, se gavemo, semo andai sfolladi in, a Saciletto de Ruda, eccola. Là invece semo stai abbastanza tempo fino a fine della guerra e lì me ricordo altre robe. Ad esempio mi me ricordo, a Saciletto che xe un castel, no, e quel che me ricordo ben ben xe che a un certo momento, bon, del castel me ricordo che verso, per andar verso Saciletto ghe iera un fossato, iera una porta tipo ovale, insomma come, rossa, era un canal, disemo sotto lì e l xe vegnu sò sta porta rossa, xe rivà un con la zampogna e se ga messo a suonare la zampogna. Se vedi che doveva esser sà gli inglesi o chi, quel che me ricordo lì. Dopo un’altra roba che me ricordo, ah sì, iera lì del, sempre nel vicin al castel, iera una piscina e senz’altro iera, iera i americani o inglesi, per mi la differenza no ghe iera. E quel che me ricordo iera che i beveva tanta di quella birra e dopo i faseva, iera la piscina carica dei bottiglie dei birra svode, e i doprava le bottiglie ma non, i ghe metteva un, allora acqua, quel che me ricordo mi, una goccia dei oio, un ferro incandescente, i faseva cussì, saltava la bottiglia, usava come bicier, questa xe quella roba che me ricordo mi. E dopo me ricordo, no, un‘altra roba, bon lì xe morto mio fradel che gaveva pochi anni, xe stà [unclear], xe stado sepellito a Saciletto, non go mai savu esattamente cos che gaveva, i diseva che iera cuore in cinque parti ma comunque. Un’altra roba che me ricordo, sì, un’altra roba de mia mama era, andava a Cervignan, da Cervignan a Saciletto e a metà strada la me ga contà quando che la xe arrivada a casa che, ela e una sua amica i se ga nascosto drio un alberon cussì grosso, che xe dove che xe la strada che da Cervignan Saciletto porta per andare a Gorizia anche. Era l’apparecchio che lo ga ciamà Pippo che le ga mitragliade e se ga salvà drio, drio l’albero ecco, anche questo me ricordo. E altre robe. Bon a parte, dopo la guerra lassemo star che voi non ve interesa naturalmente. Dopo la fine della guerra andavimo a caccia de balini robe varie perché andavimo, cioè gavevo un picon che pesava più de mi e noi lì in Via Romana iera campi e campi e andavimo a fero e poi vendevimo le schegge quel quel’altro. Quando trovavimo ad esempio una cova, la cova iera i balini de piombo, podeva esser quei della prima guerra, ma podeva esser anche roba della seconda e andavimo a venderlo in fondo a Via Romana, no. Un’altra roba, eh, un’altra roba gemo trovà anche armi e noi ierimo, disemo, se gavemo fatto la banda della Via Romana, la banda della Via del Pozzo eccetera eccetera ma dopo gavevimo noi ierimo giovanetti, cinque, sei anni, sette eccetera eccetera, però iera anche muleria anche molto più grande e lì se le davimo de santa ragione, non dico che se tiravimo coi mitra che gemo trovà anche dentro ma insomma andavimo lì. Più de un ghe ga lassà i diti o ghe ga lassà quell’altro, ma naturalmente eh bon. Adesso non vado avanti con le storie [laughs] perché altrimenti e andavimo sù per i monti a cercar roba anche dentro tra i busi, tra le grotte e ancora oggi se trova roba. Anche perché se come faso lo speleologo roba della prima poi ma la maggior parte perché della seconda non mi interessa. Dopo altre robe che me ricordo se quando che xe saltà in aria ad esempio la vecia strada per Trieste, allora faso ancora un passetto indrio. Qua iera, xe, iera stà i quarant giorni dell’invasion, cioè che iera vegniu i sloveni e siccome, e quel che me ricordo ancora xe che mia sia, cioè la sorella de me papà, io avevo due sorelle, el gaveva due sorelle, la xe stada anche e la ga ciamada perché la conosceva tre lingue come interprete tra italiani e sloveni la ga ciamada. Mio papà anche per noi, cioè noi, mio papà e le sue sorelle e la famiglia, lori saveva tedesco, italian e sloven perché i iera sotto l’Austria, i gà fatto scuole tedesche in pratica, no, e a causa de questo i ga podu anche salvar certa gente ecco tanto per, questo xe quel che me ga contà eh me papà e me zia eccetera eccetera. Un’altra roba della guerra meglio che lasemo perder perché altra roba cossa. Beh, andando in giro per i monti lì, andavimo specialmente a miccia, e andavimo a miccia allora se mettemo cominciado, allora il Monte Spaccà che iera una batteria da ottantotto tedesca, dopo la iera vicino a Ronchi a Villa Hinke anche lì iera una batteria tedesca da ottantotto. Dopo iera, quando perché noi andavimo alle terme romane che le iera, andavimo a far el bagno sotto no, e lì iera anche dei, una batteria tedesca doveva esser anche lì, dopo dovessi esser anche, no iera una batteria ma dovessi esser una mitragliatrice sulla rocca, no rocca, rocca e dopo xe la le Forcate e dopo xè la Gradiscata, sulla Gradiscata ancora oggi xe una piattaforma, lì doveva essere una mitragliatrice ancora oggi. Inutile che ve conto che nel andar in giro per il Carso cossa gavemo trovà eccetera eccetera, questo xe il meno quel che me ricordo mi. Perché in pratica fin al ’50 ecco andavimo sempre a cerca roba eccetera eccetera, se non altro per vender, per vender perché con diese lire ciollevimo il gelato oppure andavimo al cine. Ecco, tutto qui. Sta roba poi, ah sì bon, andavimo. Specialmente, dove che adesso xe la cartiera no iera el ponte, il ponte iera saltà, perché iera passà un carico de munizioni in un carro, però lì iera tanti de quei bossoli de cannon che andavimo sò, andavimo sotto anche, li tiraimo sù, svodavimo che iera della miccia bianca, me ricordo non capiso perché la iera bianca, e andavimo a vender i bossoli de otton per, sempre per ciapar qualcosa. E lì se andava avanti, cercar, cercar, cercar. Ah sì! Dopo, sa, nel ’46 go comincià ad andar a scola, anzi go la pagella del governo alleato addirittura prima elementare, se volè ve la anche ve la mostro perché penso de esser l’unico ad averla. E go tutto, perché mi tegno tutto, go prima seconda terza, e quel che me ricordo xè che i americani ne dava stecche de cioccolata, no stecche iera ehm scartossi grande come, no scartossi, scatolette come queste, le iera come se le gavessi cera color verde ma la iera talmente dura la cioccolata che metà basta, questo quel che me ricordo. Dopo finida la guerra, questo disemo periodo ’45, ’45-’46 sì, ’46 go comincià scola, dopo xè stado, ah, il cantier ga incomincià a metterse a posto e i ne ga portà, i ne portava in colonia, anche quel xè, in colonia, in montagna qua, le montagne vicin, e quel che me ricordo xè, mi non so ma quanto buona che iera la pasta sciutta che ne portava i militari, adesso non so se iera la pasta sciutta bona o la fame, comunque me ricordo anche quel. E dopo me ricordassi anche tanta roba ma lassemo perder perché non, non so.
AP: Il primo ricordo.
AB: Eh.
AP: Il suo bombardamento de notte.
AB: Esatto.
AP: Lei la se ricorda un circa le date, quando xe successo?
AB: La guardi, xe stà il primo bombardamento, adesso so che il primo bombardamento lo ga fatto il giorno de San Giuseppe ma adesso non so se xe quel, comunque xe notturno, xe la prima volta che me go ricordà de esser andado via, che me go girà e go visto carigo el ciel de ste luci, me ricordo le rosse senz’altro, sarà stà anche bianche altri colori non so ma le luci rosse se quelle che me xe stade proprio impresse. Son tornà più di una volta lì, no, e xe ancora sto muretto e dall’altra parte, ah sì quel me son dimenticà de dir, dall’altra parte xe cascà una bomba d’aereo. Fasè el conto, questo xe el muretto, no, però qua iera perché la strada de Androna Randaccio andava così, qua xe la osteria, go sentì, no mi go sentì, go ciapà e me ga buttà lì, la bomba xe cascada lì ma non la xe esplosa perché el terren iera mollo, mollo, mollo, perché se la esplodeva noi qua non se iera. E ogni volta che passavo, che passo fino a pochi anni fa perché adesso i gà messo aposto ma non xe che non me son accorto mi che xe cascà la bomba, me ga dito me papà, mio fradel, tutti quei lì no che iera cascà la bomba, iera una roba cussì però non la xe esplosa. Perché a cinquanta metri abitavimo lì noi no. E dopo, ah sì eh, e dopo noi gavevimo la casa li ancora sotto l’austria no, nel ’15, cioè semo diventai paroni nel ’15 ma semo vegniudi qua molto prima perché iera anche de Trieste, gavevimo parenti a Trieste. E quando che ga tirà, oltre a, i gà tirà anche i spezzoni, no, e un de quei spezzoni ga colpì, vicino alla stasion lì, ga colpì la nostra casa. E gavevimo una staletta noi, una stelatta in legno che dentro iera la cavra e un porcell, gavevimo cavra e porcell, addirittura quando che xe italiani ne ga fatto, i ne ga dito che noi semo agricoltori, gemo delle bestie, ne ga subito fatto pagar la tassa per quelle robe lì no. Eh bon, conclusion, le xe morte eccetera eccetera, go anche i documenti per i danni de guerra eccetera, eccetera, perché go ancora le carte de l’epoca, però non me ricordo neanche se ge ga dado perché voleva tante de quelle carte che non go ben capì se ge ga dà rivà a tirarle fora però il spesson lo go qua, perché se te vol te lo mostro adesso perché quel xe un ricordo. Noi non buttemo mai via niente! E’ questo, ailo qua.
AP: La me racconti la storia de questo oggetto.
AB: No, sto qua xe, questo qua ga brusà la staletta con le bestie e dopo un toco de casa. Mi non me son neanche, questo qua me lo ga dà me papà quando gavevo diese anni, lo me ga, lo tegniva, lo tegniva allora me gà spiegà cos che xe. Sto qua iera me par una robetta cussì lunga che li tirava sò per darghe fogo insomma, so che brusava brusava non so cos che iera dentro, sarà stà non so fosforo, cos che iera e questo iera quel che gavemo trovà tra le macerie lì della camera e lo tegnimo sempre come ricordo dell’epoca.
AP: La me ga parlà dei suoi genitori.
AB: Eh.
AP: I suoi, lei la iera piccolo, la me ga contà che la gaveva quattro, cinque anni.
AB: EH.
AP: Ma negli anni successivi i suoi genitori ge ga spiegà qualcosa della guerra, ge ga raccontado altre cose o i xe stadi zitti, che cosa ge ga raccontado? O come ge la ga spiegada?
AB: A dir la verità, me papà, alora, ierimo, roba della guerra so soltanto che me papà, me papà, me mamma, e me sia, allora una la iera a Milano, una mia sia, quell’altra mia sia [unclear] invece se vigniuda con noi e me papà, quando chi gavè, no della guerra non me ga contado niente.
AP: I xe sempre stadi.
AB: Mi so soltanto che lavorava in cantier, però dela guera non me ga contado niente. Però so soltanto che, finida la guerra, lui da Saciletto de Ruda fino in cantier andata e ritorno in bicicletta che sia piova che sia neve che sia perciò non iera tanto semplice la vita a quell’epoca, no. Altra roba della guerra, gavevimo un sio che faseva carabinier, lui ga sempre lavorà in quel cantier ecco. Altra roba non.
AP: La me ga contà prima de gente che ga perso.
AB: Come?
AP: La me ga contà de gente che ga perso diti, tirando su.
AB: Ah, eh, ma sì ma, allora, sì un de, ad esempio Mario, ma xè ancora vivo, Mario Satta che fa il tipografo, che iera uno dei nostri capi della banda de Via Romana ma più che capobanda lui iera me ricordo faseva lotta greco-romana, boxe eccetera eccetera e lì noi gaveimo in Via, gaveimo una grande cortivo che iera sei sette famiglie lì, ierimo tanta muleria gio, picia, dopo iera anche quei più grandi, e lì se davimo da far andar a cercar roba per vender e in più se faseva anche sport, ma sport tanto per dir. Buioi de latta che iera pomodori, una sbarra de ferro, incementà dentro con cemento per far sollevamento pesi, me ricordo che go fatto mi all’età de sette, otto anni, mi non so come go fatto, o diese gavevo, cinquantaquatro chili alsado ancora quel me ricordo. Dopo fasevimo boxe dentro tanto xe vero che go el naso spaccado perché go ciapà un bel carot. E dopo, dopo se zogava anche giochi un pochettin meno pericolosi tipo coi tapeti però quel che iera più de tuto, fasevimo i fusili col lastico, poi le cerobotane coi pomei, dopo le freccie con le ombrelle quelle lì iera gravi, andavimo a sgransi con le freccie e con le ombrelle per ciaparli. E lì se divertimo. Andavimo a fregar erba, ciamemo cussì panocie perché fasevimo anche allevamento de conigli ma ben sui trenta quaranta conigli, ma non solo mi, fasevimo tuti. Dopo fasevimo anche da Stolfa la coltivazion dei bachi da seta, anche quei. Andavimo a spigolar, andavimo a runcola, insomma se faseva de tuto per, questa xe. Apena finì la guerra però eh perché durante la guerra dopo semo andai in Friuli ecco ma dopo se gavemo, zogavimo a balòn le prime squadre, tipo la della Via Romana gavemo zogà tuti, dopo xe cioè e altra roba.
AP: Lei la me ga parlà de scola.
AB: Eh.
AP: A scola I ve ga contà qualcosa della guerra o niente? Come ve la ga contada?
AB: No, a scola, quel che mi me ricordo de scola xe che go sempre odiado Garibaldi! Mi go fato prima, seconda, terza, quarta e quinta. In terza se dava l’esame, non come adesso, se dava l’esame in terza e in quinta. I me ga chiesto de Garibaldi, ancora oggi mi lo odio. Perché per mi Garibaldi xe un mercenario ecco, allora sa quella volta non me andava zò, no perché quando che se rivai qua i ga incomincià a inculcarne in pratica. Inso mma, italian, italian, italian! Ma noi savevimo anche, noi ierimo austro-ungarici anche e mi go sempre sentì parlar ben de l’Austria-Ungheria tanto è vero che oggi mi fazo parte anche dei Freiwilligen Schützen, tra parentesi, no. Come che la conta, perché mi me dispiasi ma non me va, non me va italiani.
AP: E quindi anche gli italiani ghe ga contà qualcosa dei bombardamenti, della guerra?
AB: De, allora della guerra per forza, la fasi conto che ad esempio là sotto, el tunnel sotto la Rocca noi lo conoscevimo quando che andavimo a fregar roba perché lì era, el primo toco xe naturale e dopo il resto i lo ga fatto artificiale, no. Lì andavimo a veder se trovavimo. Sotto lì iera tedeschi, che lì dopo i portava le munizioni, anche le munizioni dove che iera ottantotto e in più so anche sora la Gradiscata perché lì, prima de andar alla Gradiscata iera una caverna che la ciamavimo al Caverna dei colombi e dentro iera cussì e sotto iera ancora, iera un pozzo che dentro iera anche delle pistole, quello me ricordo. E insomma, noi cercavimo sempre roba per andar a vendere ecco. Però tutti i busi che xe qua posso contarghele un per un eh! Ad esempio lì dalla stasion i ga, disemo i ga messo un’inferriata sora un buso perché iera pericoloso. Dopo xe, andavimo alla, ah sì fasevimo raccolto ma roba della prima guerra invece al mulin che iera al lago de Pierarossa, fasevimo raccolta de settantacinque. Li gavemo messi sotto el ponte in un buso così gavemo carigà, un bel giorno se trovemo che faseva lavori, le cose ne ga fregà tutti i settantacinque. Dopo lì dalla cava, ah lì dalla cava, altra roba che me ricordo, braghette curte, sò dalla cava, quella che xe in Via Romana, due bombe in scarsela, son andà in stasion lì dalla polizia, go trovà ste qua [laughs] ghe digo. Ga ciamà mia mare, go ciapà tante di quelle pacche che metà basta. Ecco, da quella volta non le go mai più portade a casa. Messe sempre da parte però. E dopo se ga trovà roba che ancora oggi esisti ma non ge la disemo a nessuno. Roba, roba della prima, roba della prima però. E posti iera roba della seconda. La xe là sepolta e che resti sepolta.
AP: Go un’altra curiosità.
AB: Come?
AP: Lei la ga fioi?
AB: Go due fie.
AP: Sì.
AB: No, la scusi, no due fie, due nipotine. Allora là xe la sacra famiglia se vedi no, ecco, quella là sotto xe mia fia con le due nipotine. Quello là xe suo marì. Sora xe mio fio, quelle là xe le mie nipotine, allora xe mio fio con la mula e mia fia col marì. I abita, son stà, son tornado, son tornado il giorno undici. I abita, allora, mia fia, la xe laureada in fisioterapia e la xe andada in Francia e comunque la se ga sposada in Francia, la xe sui Pirenei, dalla parte dell’Oceano Atlantico, in pratica xe proprio sul confin con la Spagna. La ga comprà una malga insomma col marì tutto quanto, una vecia stala la ga messa a posto e xe ventimila metri quadri. E la ga ciamà la malga la ga ciamada ‘ciapaquà’, forse non la sa cosa significa ciapaquà ma comunque ‘malga ciapaquà’. Due nipotine, una da sei anni, una da nove anni. Le sa el talian, perché ge mandemo su roba de, sa meglio de mi el talian el che, sa el talian, sa el spagnolo e sa el francese.
AP: Ecco, volevo domandarghe, a fioi e nipoti, lei ghe ga mai contado de queste cose?
AB: No, no mai.
AP: Cossa ghe diseva?
AB: No, no, no i me ga mai, a parte il fatto che sia me fia che me, suo marì i xe antimilitaristi, antimilitaristi insomma, i ga fatto baruffa perché ghe iera passà uno per i campi lì la sora de lori col fusil ghe ga dito de tutto, perciò non go togado quell’argomento. Ah, da pici, la parla da pici?
AP: Da pici o adesso.
AB: Allora da pici xe poco da dir perché insieme anche a Tullio lì, a sei anni gemo incomincià a far i scout, in pratica son boy scout ancora adesso. Perciò vita all’aria aperta tutto quanto eccetera eccetera. Go lavorà, allora femo così, go lavorà in Germania anche perché dovevo andar a far il militar ma mi il militar non lo volevo farlo no. Allora me ga mandà rivedibile una volta, rivedibile quell’altra, a un certo momento digo mi son andà a lavorar, son andà alle scuole avviamento che per mi xe le scuole migliori che sia mai stade anche se i le ga eliminade. Lì go imparà a lavorar, go avudo dei professori veramente boni veramente. Se son andà a lavorar in Germania che so far sia il piastrellista, sia il saldador, sia il tornidor, sia il falegname. Gavemo avu un avviamento al lavoro che xe stado qualcosa de bel. A un certo momento, bon, dovevo andar a far il militar. Bon, speta, speta, go trovà lavoro di qua, go trovà lavoro di là, [unclear], bon, speto un anno, speto due, allora un mio amico sempre, oh sempre scoutismo eh, mio amico scout el se ga diplomado in ragioneria, lui faseva la quarta bon allora cosa, me ga imprestà i libri a mi, mi me go messo digo si sa cossa far pet che me metto a studiar anche mi no. Bon. Allora sì, iera semplice studiar però el bel xe questo, sempre per quanto riguarda italiani no. Allora, bon, comincià a studiar. Allora noi gavemo fatto scuola de avviamento industriale, gavemo fato delle sezioni, dei disegni tecnici ma roba ma lavoro de tornio, allora ‘ti non te pol far perché non te ga fatto le medie!’ come non go fatto le meidie? eh non go fato le medie, bon ah, me ga toccà dar l’esame della terza media compreso el latin. Siccome me mancava tre anni prima de, bon allora l’esame de terza media, go dà l’esame della prima ragioneria, son andà direttamente in seconda, go fatto seconda terza e quarta, in quarta go dà l’esame de quinta e su ottantadue de lori semo stai promossi mi e quel che studiavimo insieme. Tiè! Son partì per militar, ah momentin. Quando fasevo scuola a Gorizia, andavo da Viertaler e ghe disevo, la guardi che i miei voti xe cussì, cussì, cussì, posso finir un mese prima? Sì se [unclear], sì. E allora finivo un mese prima, andavo in Germania a lavorar in fabbrica e tornavo un mese dopo. E cussì per i tre anni e cussì go imparà anche il tedesco za che iero, no. Go dà l’esame naturalmente, in quarta go dà anche l’esame de quinta e son andà militar. Son andà militar e bon, go fatto el militar a, allora a Orvieto il CAR e invece a Pordenon coi 132 Brigata corazzata ‘Ariete’, carrista. Sul mio carro gavevo, guarda caso, solo che altoatesini, se parlava in tedesco. Insomma, mi me piasi quella vita lì e po bon. Alla fine ga dito, vuole mettere, se voglio mettere firma, magari, sa, ghe go dito, ma non sotto l’esercito italian ghe digo no. Perché me gavevo, gavevo un tenetin de Roma, no, che ne voleva metter sull’attenti, allora lui voleva punirme mi e mi invece lui lo go punido nel senso che go dito non si presenta all’appello, non fa così, non fa colà, perciò che me capita sotto la naja uno cussì. E dopo, siccome go tutti i, anche tutte le carte, me son accorto soltanto due anni fa, che mettevo a posto le carte, che me volevo far el militar ma se me trovo un maresciallo che me metti sull’attenti. Sa cosa che xe successo? Che nel mio congedo i me ga scritto:’diploma de terza avviamento superiore’. Perché se i me scriveva che son perito, che son ragioniere perito commerciale, i me faseva far l’ufficiale, no. E allora go dito, ecco, che fortunato che son.
AP: Volessi farghe ancora due domande.
AB: Eh.
AP: Quando praticamente, tornemo per un attimo al tempo del, della seconda guerra mondiale, quando lei la vedeva scender queste luci
AB: Sì, sì.
AP: Lei cosa la pensava? Xe delle persone che ghe sta tirando addosso? Che xe una specie dei spettacolo?
AB: Ghe posso dir solo una roba, non savevo cos che iera. E non go capì che iera guerra, ecco. Cioè, mi me son accorto che iera la guerra quando che semo andai a Saciletto.
AP: Dove che la ga capido cosa iera successo.
AB: Esatto. E me ricordo ancora un’altra cosa, me ricordo che scavavimo dove che xe le mura del castel, el porton, non so se la xe mai stada là de quelle parti, ma ierimo mi e mio cugin, gavemo tirà fora dei birilli cussì, iera bombe a man, ancora oggi me lo ricordo ben. E dopo me ricordo ancora lì dal pontisel che iera un toco de coso de bazooka cussì. E lì me ricordo ancora che correvo drio ai carri armati e go ancora una cicatrice qua che son cascà dal bordo di un scalin de, non me ricordo.
AP: Carri armati che iera inglesi o americani.
AB: Oh, per mi iera, se iera quel con la zampogna mi pareva.
AP: Podeva esser inglesi.
AB: Podeva esser inglesi.
AP: E adesso l’ultima domanda. Lei la me ga dito che, quando che la iera picio
AB: Eh.
AP: ghe sembrava una roba che non la capiva, la vedeva queste luci.
AB: Esatto, non savevo, ecco esatto.
AP: Quindi iera soltanto un spettacolo. Adesso xe passà settant’anni.
AB: Lo go ancora come iero cussì. Ancora, uguale. Uguale.
AP: Percui lei non la ga cambià idea sulle persone, sugli aerei.
AB: No. Uguale uguale, come il pacchetto de strisce, disemo, che me xe cascà davanti cussì. Iera de giorno. E, iera che luccicava ma luci, iera una bella giornata de sol e iera sti argenti che luccicava che iera, iera che bel, che bel, che bel, pum! Un pacchetto de roba, iera lunghi cussì, cussì, un paccheto cussì, paf! Larghe così. Quel xe quelle robe che me ricordo più de tutte proprio. Proprio de, ciamemolo guerra perché se i rivava, se i disturbava i radar penso che iera ancora qualcosa, no.
AP: Certo. E adesso, cosa la pensa de chi volava sugli aerei? Perché questi qua ghe tirava bombe in testa.
AB: Eh bon, oh, [laughs], a dir la verità.
AP: La ga mai pensado a la guerra?
AB: No, no, no. Così no. Oh, mi me piasi, ghe digo subito che ad esempio me piasi, allora, me piasi Stukas. Allora i Stukas per conto mio per farli i ga, i li ga fatti drio agli albatros o drio agli oocai, mentre quegli inglesi senz’altro i li ga fatti perché per via della picchiata proprio l’altro giorno che i mostrava sta roba qua. Le rondini senz’altro xe stade, se stade dixemo pensade, cioè i Spitfire pensadi per le rondini perché le ga delle virate che xe qualcosa. E sta roba qua la go pensada anche quando son stado lì ultimamente in Spagna, in Francia dopo in Spagna che la ghe iera tante de quelle rondini, faseva tante virate mi me pensava de veder i Spitfire ghe digo subito. Roba della seconda guerra mondiale, vedo tutti i film, tutto quanto perché me piasi, no. Della prima poi xe tutto altro de quel che posso contar vita e miracoli, ma della seconda.
AP: Questo xe quel che la se ricorda.
AB: Eh?
AP: Questo xe quel che la se ricorda.
AB: Sì, della seconda, oddio a parte, a parte i film oppure i libri che legio.
AP: Certo.
AB: Ma libri della seconda se pol dir che no legio, stago leggendo adesso Rommel in tedesco la guardi lei. Ecco.
AP: Va bene, Angelo. Xe sta una bellissima intervista. Grazie, te ne ga contà delle cose veramente interessanti.
AB: Sì, neanche non, [laughs], ah, forse, dopo me vien in mente sempre a pici no, sotto i portici drio el campanil lì de Monfalcon ghe iera DDT e MCC, iera quando ch’i xe vegnudi e l dava el DDT la sà per disinfettar e vegnu fora la frase:’Duce, Duce torna, ddt, magari con Claretta’. [laughs] Vegnu fora, con cossa che.
AP: Questa xe bellissima.
AB: Quelle robe che, vabbè, eh oh!
AP: Bene.
AB: Queste xe la roba che, sì ma no ma.
AP: Allora, xe sta delle bellissime storie. Le la me ga contà delle cose che mi non savevo, quindi grazie, xe stà una bellissima storia e xe stà una storia che probabilmente anche agli altri ghe piaserà ascoltarla. E quindi semo veramente contenti che lei ne ga fatto far questa intervista, penso che sia riuscida benissimo e non posso che ringraziarla.
AB: E adesso posso offrirve qualcosa de bever?
AP: Molto volentieri.
AB: Allora cominciemo.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Angelo Bencina
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Angelo Bencina recalls wartime memories in Monfalcone: a cave being modified as a shelter; the descent of bright red and white target indicators at night; a bomb which nearly missed him and didn’t explode; Window radio counter-measures being dropped. Describes how incendiaries hit his parents’ house, which suffered heavy damage and explains that he has kept a spent fragment as a keepsake ever since. Retells the story of his mother being caught-up in a bombing attack with a friend and how they survived by hiding behind a large tree. Remembers American soldiers giving chocolate to him which was difficult to chew. Describes how he and his friends used to salvage shell cases and military equipment for their scrap value and with the money they would buy cinema tickets and ice creams. Stresses his anti-Italian sentiments and his appreciation for German culture, a position compounded by his admiration for the Hapsburg Empire and a keen interest in the history of the First World War. Mentions how he avoids talking of war memories with his relatives, who are avid pacifists.
Creator
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Alessandro Pesaro
Date
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2016-08-01
Format
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00:41:36 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ABencinaA160801
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Monfalcone
Italy
Coverage
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Civilian
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
incendiary device
perception of bombing war
target indicator
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1258/17168/PBarronAJK1901.2.jpg
f6b3bac684a11f7127d93f5570e15270
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1258/17168/ABarronAJK190418.2.mp3
06ecd8bdb880ea29191d52bee25f38a6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barron, Andrew
Andrew James Kelton Barron
A J K Barron
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Andrew Barron (1923 - 2021, 163695 Royal Air Force) He flew 38 operations as a navigator in 223 Squadron at RAF Oulton flying B-24s.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-10
2018-04-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Barron, AJK
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: This is Nigel Moore with Andrew Barron. It is now the 18th of April 2019 and I’m picking up with Andrew from the first part of the interview from where he was being posted to 111 OTU in the Bahamas from his training in Canada. So Andrew, would you like to take us on from there please.
AB: Yes. Well, I think I regaled you with the thing of the train journey across the plains of Canada. The, what do they call it? The something shield. This, there’s a huge granite shield which, which covers central Canada and borders the Great Lakes, I think it’s Lake Superior, the topmost of the Lakes and the journey took, I don’t know, two, three, four days, I’ve no idea, I didn’t keep any record I don’t even remember what our sleeping arrangements were on the train; there must have been sleeping arrangements. The thing stopped every so often and threw out a number of cadets for the various places until we got to Calgary which was the terminus and some of us were transported to this RAF Training School Boden, Alberta and I restarted the pilot training and managed to take about, I think, an hour, an hour and a half or so for my solo which convinced the, the management and myself that I wasn’t very good pilot material and so I had the choice, having been re-mustered to pilot, navigator or bomb aimer and of the number I decided on the Navigator B which was the equivalent of the pre-war observer who did everything. He navigated the plane, he dropped the bombs when they got there, he took the photographs if necessary: you name it he did it. And so I had an interlude at the Canadian Air Force Manning Depot at Edmonton which was partly of course full of new recruits waiting to be sent off for primary training and it was partly where the residue, the naughty boys and the failures were gathered together for re-mustering and I think I said about the Dominion troops’ antipathy to having to salute the Canadian Air Force flag on the parade ground and the Australians took it to the extent of getting the fire axes and chopping the flag pole down. I was more sort of phlegmatic about it and I would march round the other three sides of the square rather than go past their bloody flag and salute it. And I spent about, I don’t know, two, three weeks, four weeks at Edmonton and then I was posted to Bombing and Gunnery School at -
[Other]: Hello! Oh you’re behaving yourself, you’ve got your feet up!
NM: Good afternoon.
AB: We’re switching it off.
AB: So anyway I was posted to Mountain View, which was Number 6 Royal Canadian Air Force Bombing and Gunnery School in Ontario, not very far from Trenton which was the Canadian Cranwell, not that made any difference, and I had a fortnight, I think, to get there so I took advantage of that to, when, I had transport I suppose from Edmonton down to Calgary because the two railways, the, anyway the two major Canadian railways, one went through Edmonton, one went through Calgary and my ticket was from Calgary to Ontario so I had to get down to Calgary and for some reason, I’ve no idea why, I hitch-hiked because I must have had transportation provided from Edmonton and I had a number of things: I had a lift in a Model T Ford, I had a lift in a rickety old car which was full of Ukrainian settlers in, in Canada, there were about a dozen of them in this vehicle but they got me in somehow, with my kit and I ended up in Calgary in a small van full of eggs going to market in Calgary. And from Calgary I went west through the Rockies to Vancouver because my maternal grandfather had, as far as I know, when he was in the Royal Navy, been at Esquimalt which was the naval base on the island of Victoria, which was offshore from Vancouver and so I went there and it was interesting and I looked at the totem poles that were preserved there and I went to a National Park, which I don’t know if the park was named or anyway, running through this park was the Capilano Canyon which was about a hundred and twenty feet deep and was spanned by a rather rickety wire rope bridge. I wouldn’t have done it these days, I’d have had forty fits at the dangers, but in those days I went across this bridge without any qualms and looked down at the, at the waters roaring along a hundred and twenty feet below me and then I got on the train and went back to, and started on the voyage across Canada. And I had a marvellous ticket, it must have been about a yard long and you tore bits off, there were, you tore a bit off for breakfast and another bit off for the sleeping car and another bit off for lunch and so it went on across the country and my researches afterwards revealed that we went across at the magnificent speed of about forty nine miles an hour [laugh] across Canada! It took about, I don’t know, about four days and we arrived at Mountain View which was a typical Canadian military station, two story wooden hutments which were the barrack blocks or barrack blocks and we started our training. Several days ground work and then we took to the air and the bombing training was done in Bolingbroke aircraft which were the Canadian built Blenheim bomber and I think we, oh I don’t know when we went up in twos or, twos, oh we did our gunnery, no sorry, I got that wrong, we did our gunnery in the Bolingbroke, because like the, the Blenheim bomber it had a mid upper turret and we took three or four cadets at a time and we fired bullets which were daubed with paint: green, red, nothing, and, white, no not white, it must have been three, must have been just green and red and blank and you fired at a drogue target, like the same sort of thing as the windsock on an airfield and some hardy characters in a Harvard would fly along with, trailing this drogue behind them two or three hundred yards behind them and you’d fire at this thing and they’d count the number of coloured holes in it and that was your score and it was the bombing which was done in the Canadian built Ansons, the good old Anson and we flew and dropped little replica bombs, they were, I think they weighed about twelve or fifteen pounds and when they hit the ground they let off a little puff of smoke and chaps in observation towers took bearings of these puffs of smoke and of course got your, the position of your strike from that and so it went on. We did, er, actually, if you’d like to grab my log book there and will tell you what my brilliant score was, or if you’re not particularly interested!
NM: Well, we will catch up with your log book later if that’s okay.
AB: Anyway, we did about, I suppose it was about two months I think, at B and G and we were assessed on that. And we had a polyglot course. There was six New Zealanders and about a half dozen Canadians, some of whom were re-mustered; they were ground tradesmen. We had a couple of sergeants I think, got a photograph of them somewhere and then the rest was made up with Brits. We had one strange character, we had a Canadian Jew, Moses Levine, who came from Montreal – where else - and we worked the Canadian system, we worked ten days and then we had four days off and then we had another ten days and another four days off which was rather nice because we were able to get off on sightseeing and we went to Toronto which wasn’t very far away. We went to Niagara which surprised me, I’d expected, reading the books, my adventure books, when I was a boy, I’d expected that this, these enormous falls would be out in the middle of nowhere, but they weren’t. They were out in the middle of bloody houses and buildings and all sorts of things, which was a bit disappointing really, but nonetheless exciting, the Niagara Falls. We just looked at them, we didn’t go down on the boats and get wet, I don’t suppose we could afford it, those days. And then I had another spell; I went to Detroit and was entertained by an American family and introduced to this weird system of American house numbering, you know, they were in a house number sort of twelve thousand three hundred and sixty seven, or something like that, but in fact it was the, this grid system of long straight roads and they were divided up into blocks and the blocks were numbered in these weird sort of twelve thousand and ten thousand and what have you. Interesting. And then having successfully passed that, we were posted, or I was posted to Navigation School which was Quebec, Ancienne-Lourette, just outside an airfield a few miles outside Quebec city and away we went, and got there they said, ‘you’re too early you’re on the next course. Go away, go away for a fortnight and come back and join the next course!’ So away we went. I went, several of us, went down to New York, I forget how we got down there, no idea, probably went by bus or something, anyway, we went down to New York and I stayed at a, stayed at, not the Army and Navy, the, oh gawd, what’s the er, the military organisation, they’re not military, they called themselves military and they go around towns playing bands and they run, and they run anti-drinking, anti-drinking - the Salvation Army! That’s the one. They, the Salvation Army they ran, in my opinion, they ran the best canteens and the best hostels for servicemen during the last war. And anyway, I stayed in one of them, and did all the sights in New York, you know, went to the, went up the Rockefeller Centre or something, I think was the tallest building in New York at the time and we were, you know, given tickets to various shows which was good fun. The, it, rather strange to British eyes, they, you go to the cinema and sort of half way through the cinema showing there’d be a break and there’d be a stage show that’d come on. I don’t remember any of the artists who appeared and we were treated to, you know, like night club showings and being a very, extremely callow youth I didn’t get in to any trouble which I quite possibly might have done had I not been a callow youth. So anyway, that, oh and we went to the Statue of Liberty and that was interesting. And we met Americans who’d got no idea who we were and what we were and on being introduced to a Scotsman amongst our numbers they: ‘Is he on our side?’ Very ignorant of the outside world the Americans were, and still are in my opinion, but so anyway that filled in the period and I must have caught the bus or the train or something back to Quebec and the business started in, the serious business of learning to be a navigator and it was a, it was about a four month, four or five month course. The times, the lengths of the courses during the war varied; it depended upon supply and demand, you know. If, if the chop rate had been particularly high, losses high, and the RAF were short of airmen then the course length, core, was shortened and you got trained as a pilot in about five months. If times were easy and it, there, there weren’t the casualties it took six months to train you. I forget what ours was, at Ancienne-Lourette, look it up in my log book but it doesn’t matter really, we got to Anciennes-Lorette in the, I think in the September. I had no idea, not the faintest idea, I guess some chaps did know, but the Quebec Conference had only just finished, the Quebec Conference where Churchill and Roosevelt and all the other bigwigs had met in the Chateau Frontenac I think, the big posh hotel on the outskirts of Quebec, but I’d no idea, nor had I any idea that Wing Commander Guy Gibson, of Dambuster fame, had been sent out to North America to visit the various training establishments and stir up the troops and encourage them to go out and get shot down. I had no idea he’d been out there, he wanted to keep him out of the way actually. So anyway we settled down to training and learned how to be navigators. We did about a hundred hours flying, or just over a hundred hours flying, again in the sturdy Anson, a rather more stable machine than the Ansons that were doing all the flying in Britain; they were the original Mark I Ansons, and the ones in Canada had a wooden fuselage and they were all enclosed of course because of the rigours of the weather there and were generally a more formidable aeroplane and we did our navigation in them and the drill was that we were settled, [rustling] settled into pairs and I was paired up with Johnnie Johnson, a New Zealander, and the drill was that you flew out to some point, you navigated out to some point and the second navigator oh, he took photographs of things and did all sorts of things, sort of took bearings and generally made himself useful and when you got to, hopefully you got, well of course you did [emphasis] get to the place you were aiming for, because the pilots were all ex bush pilots who’d forgotten more about the countryside they were looking at than we’d ever likely to know! They knew the country like the back of their hands so of course if you were a little bit away from where you should have been going the pilot, he closed it all up for you so you could put on your chart where you had actually been and then he’d take you there and the other chap would fly back, would navigate you back to your base while you did all the fiddly bits and that went on. At the end of January we had our final tests, and final exams and passed out in due course as navigators and you knew, you knew what to do but your ability to do it was probably rather doubtful. So anyway the next step was that I was posted to a General Reconnaissance School on Prince Edward Island and the idea of that was, you spent about six or eight weeks at GR School and there were two of them: one was Canadian and one was British and I was of course sent to the Canadian one and that was, I had, I think again the mandatory two weeks’ leave to get there because I was commissioned and had to go and get my smart officers uniform which I did at Ottawa, Canada’s capital. Everything was covered in snow so I got really no particular recollection of that. Actually, I do have a recollection of it because it was the second time that I was very nearly airsick. We were, the whole of Prince Edward Island was completely obliterated in snow and ice and quite indistinguishable from the mainland or the Gulf of, the Gulf of St Lawrence and we, one of our exercises was flying at low level, something like about a thousand feet, or few hundred feet across the, this snow and ice and lying in the nose of the Anson with sort of hot, rubbery air blowing in your face and it was remarkably bumpy, this, this icy landscape, or ice-scape, and I was very nearly airsick. Anyway, oh, and it was a bit of a laugh really, because you’d, the exercises were to fly to Halifax which was one of the pushing off points for the convoys across the Atlantic and you’d fly down to Halifax and you’d count the number of ships in it and what sort of ships they were and fly back report that and the afternoon’s detail would fall on you and quiz you: what was there, how many were there, what were they like, did you see any battleships and so on and so on and you’d give them all the gen of course when they got back in the late afternoon or early evening, they say they’d all bloody well gone – the harbour was empty! [Laugh] So anyway we spent about four to six weeks doing that and we were passed out and I was posted down to 111 OTU, Operational Training Unit, which was Coastal Command’s, I think it was Coastal Command’s one and only operational training unit, it certainly was for the Liberators anyway, and I was posted down there and this wasn’t a very popular posting because everybody thought oooh, Nassau, that’s the, where all the bigwigs, the RAF bigwigs who are on a swanny posting to Washington and places like that in the United States and Canada, that’s where they all go for their leave over there and, you know, they like to go and inspect the troops at the OTU to see what they’re up to, but in actual fact you never saw hair nor hide of the, of these bigwigs at all and Nassau was, it wasn’t a bad posting at all. The only weird thing was that the, there were two bases, one was Windsor Field, I forget what the other was called, one was called Windsor Field and that was where the American B25 twin engined bomber was based and they were used [cough] as the intermediate conversion from the pilots who’d been flying Ansons, who’d got their wings flying Ansons and they converted to these B25 Mitchells and they, they usually had two pilots and a navigator. Well, I was different. I was one, I was with one pilot and I was a navigator on my own with just one pilot who’d trained in Canada, chap called Hedges, Pop Hedges called him Pop Hedges because he was about twenty, sorry, twenty five and therefore quite an elderly person in the aircrew, in the aircrew family. So in fact Pop Hedges and myself flew with a staff pilot from Nassau and then when we’d, when Pop was considered competent, we were, the two of us were posted to the other aerodrome at Nassau where we converted to the Liberator under the care of a pilot from the UK who’d completed about a half a tour on Liberators in the UK and was sent out to be a captain on his own and a pilot, sorry not a pilot, a navigator who’d completed half a tour and was now sent to Nassau to be the Chief Navigator too, and I was to be the second navigator. I’m getting a bit rambling aren’t I? So anyway we did this training in the Liberators and at the end of that there was an exercise, you had to complete an exercise, the Kingsley Exercise, which, in which you flew out to about half way to Bermuda from which had come a destroyer and you had to find this destroyer by you know, your expertise in navigation, which was all very well. Unfortunately the, you had to use two charts and they joined in the middle and there was a one degree longitude overlap. Now when I came to do my navigation I made a mistake: I missed this one degree overlap in the longitude so when it came to the crunch we had to do a radar search for this bloody destroyer, and the result of which was I didn’t do very well on my Kingsley exercise. I mean I would have gone back to the UK as the second navigator, that was my destiny, but it certainly would have delayed my transposition to the first navigator, not that it in the end mattered because we were shipped back to Moncton, the RAF Manning Depot in New Brunswick to await shipping back to the UK and then distribution to our various squadrons or whatever else we were destined for. And we were about three weeks at Moncton when we were suddenly posted back to the UK and flown back. We were shipped up to Montreal and put into a Liberator transport plane and flown back to the UK, where I phoned up my parents and found that the residence no longer existed, it had been flying bombed and was uninhabitable and I’d got nowhere to go when it came to my disembarkation leave, but my parents had scouted round and found accommodation for me, some friends or people they knew in the road in Sunbury on Thames put me up for two or three, for a couple of weeks and I was put up for a while. What had happened was, that a flying bomb had come over and had hit a house about four houses up the road from where we lived, blown that house to bits, blown the next house to bits, and destroyed the next house and the house after that had been pushed over on to ours and made ours totally uninhabitable: broken all the windows, torn off the roof and so on and it all got a little bit disjointed. That’s right, when I got back from that, we sat around at Harrogate in this distribution centre, waiting to be posted, expecting of course to be sent off to the various Coastal Command aerodromes around the country and then the posting list came up and all these crews were sent, were being sent to RAF Oulton, where’s that then, nobody knew, then on the train and we eventually ended up in Norfolk, looking at black painted Liberator bombers and wondering what our destiny was and we found that we were in Bomber Command [laugh] so I ended up in the blacked out bomber flying to Germany, not looking, not seeing what was happening. But much to the surprise and the dislike of most of the rest of my fellow postees who were [beeps] – oh must mind your – who were nearly all of course, all virtually - oh that’s my tea is it, oh – virtually all ex Coastal Command men and that’s what they expected to be going to. [Pause for tea!] Ah! So I ended up in Bomber Command and they said well, you can fly as front gunner if you like for the time – oh that’s right, the task of the squadron was to, initially, to fly what they called Big Ben sorties which were up and down the Dutch coast about fifteen or so miles out to sea from, more or less from the islands, you know, the Scheldt estuary up to, I forget what the name of the, Ijmuiden is it, some? I think it’s Ijmuiden, a town about halfway up the Dutch coast and we were spotting for V2s, the rockets, lifting off, because they thought at the time that the V2s were radio controlled. Well they weren’t actually cause we found that out later, and our job was to send off a signal that one had lifted off. What good it would have done goodness knows, because the, they were supersonic so they were never able to give any warning of their approach and they’d no idea where they were going anywhere. So anyway, like it or not, I did a few exercises in an Oxford which was the equivalent to the, equivalent to the Anson and another RAF twin engine trainer and the squadron had a, had one for communications purposes and it was fitted up with the Gee navigation equipment which we would have to know how to operate because that’s what we would be using in Bomber Command and you know, just one or two flights like that and I went off I think on the 13th of October on my first operational sortie looking for these bloody V2s and I bloody hated it. I was scared stiff, sitting up in this turret. The navigator and the front gunner had to crawl through a tunnel about two foot square which ran along the right hand side of the Liberator, the right hand side of its front nose wheel undercarriage, you had to crawl up that into a compartment [beeping] up front which in the US Air Force housed three men: the navigator, the bomb aimer and the front gunner. In our case it was initially the front gunner and the navigator, and it was draughty, the air came in all over the place of this ruddy gun turret and you could only, the only thing you could see was the deep blue sea below you, we were at about twenty thousand feet, and if you craned your neck round one way or the other and turned the turret you could just glimpse the wings, or the wing tips or perhaps the outer engines. I didn’t like it, I didn’t like it at all. And anyway, I did three of them and then they discovered, by which time they discovered that the V2 was not radio controlled so the Big Bens stopped and the squadron reverted to flying decoy operations. They did two kinds of decoy operations: you flew out with the main force pretending that you were part of the main force and after a time, after you’d cleared the German frontier you broke off in a separate direction and you then started throwing out bundles of metallised paper, they were like chaisy tain, chaisy tain.
[Other]: Daisy chain!
AB: No [laugh].
NM: Paper chains.
AB: Paper chains with metallised on one side and they were cut to the frequency of the German radars so that when they fell out as a bundle and opened and spread out into a great cluster, they looked like a bunch of aeroplanes so that one aeroplane would look like perhaps twenty or thirty aeroplanes so the little force of twenty or thirty aeroplanes which were detached and sent out on a separate heading would look like another main force heading for a different target. Anyway, this was what the squadron was doing. So I was walking through the flight offices, the avenue of flight offices one day when the Nav Leader, who was, I think if I remember, a flight lieutenant on loan from the B17 squadron on the station who’d done a tour and knew what it all was about, anyway he came out of his office and he said: ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘would you like to be Tony Morris’s navigator?’ And I said ‘Yes please.’ Well Tony Morris was one of the Canadian pilots who got a bit too close to the Dutch coast or they got too close to a flak ship, which was one of the ships the Germans had which was covered all over in flak guns and was posted out in estuaries and places like that, and their navigator had unfortunately stopped a piece of flak - in his backside. [Chuckle] And so was uncommissioned, so anyway I was offered poor old Jack Wallace’s place, he survived by the way and came back on ops later on in the next year. But anyway, I got his seat and, and away I went and I’ve often wondered if Tony had realised and, I think Jack Furniss was the Nav Leader, anyway, if the Nav Leader had realised that my sole experience had been you know, just an hour or two in an Oxford on a bit of Gee training but otherwise, I knew what to do, but I really wasn’t, I’d never had to try to do it! I mean the first operational sortie that I did with Tony was the first time that I had ever been entirely and solely responsible for the navigation of the plane from point A to point B and back again, you know unguided, but I did it and it’s hardly surprising that my logs and charts or logs at any rate, are covered all over with the Nav Leader’s blue pencil things - why didn’t you do this and why didn’t you do that and lots of this, but you know, I’d done lots of work but I hadn’t done anything with it, but we got there and back and after that it improved. My, my er, I differed in my ideas with the, than the, from the Nav Leader, the copy book way of navigating in, well really, in the air force, in any conditions, hasn’t changed, you fly along a course you’re given, you fly along a course which you expect will get you to your destination. You check your position and you find that it’s not on the line that you expect to be and if you project the line from where you started to where you are, it doesn’t lead to where you want to be so you have to make a correction. So the copybook way is to project ahead to where you expect to be in say in another ten or fifteen minutes time, well I mean in those days, ten or fifteen minutes time, in those, that time, you then calculate the new course that you’ve got to fly to get to the place that you want to be at. That’s the copy book way of doing it. Well I didn’t entirely agree with that. I mean if I was flying along and I got a position and I found it was off the course that we were supposed to be on, I would say right we are ten degrees off course we need to alter course twenty degrees to get back to where we want to go, so I’d do that, I’d just say to the pilot alter course twenty degrees right or left or whatever it was to get to the proper place, then I’d do it properly: work out the new wind or find out what the difference in the wind was and do it properly. But it, he’d scribble on it, he’d say what’s this? Guestimation? Well it was, yes, but it was intelligent guestimation but in my mind, I mean it was intelligent guestimation, anyway it worked because it was the way I always worked and we never got lost, we got there. We only got lost once [chuckle]. And that was as I say, I only looked out once; we were I think, I think it may have been Cologne and it was cloud covered and it was, they were using what they would call sky marking. The Pathfinder Force released their markers up in the air, blind if you like, and the main force aimed for those markers, instead of aiming for a marker on the ground they aimed for something in the air. Don’t ask me how it was done, I mean it was, you know, a clever business. And anyway, it was very colourful cause there were flares all over the place and I looked out and there were all these brilliant lights and the little twinkling lights which didn’t really register with me at the time with the bursts of the flak shells. It was very colourful. I wasn’t there to sightsee, I mean I was there to navigate and far too many aeroplanes were lost, because crew members did sightsee, gunners looked down on the ground to see what the, see where the bombs were bursting, see what the, all the coloured lights were doing: you weren’t there for that. And as far as I was concerned it was an uneventful tour. I didn’t see what was happening. I’ve got a copy of Mervyn Eustace’s, Mervyn Eustace was our second pilot and his, I want to, I must make another effort to get in touch with Mervyn’s son to see if I can get his assent to well, bluntly, publish Mervyn’s memoirs cause Mervyn wrote his memoirs just for his own and his family’s use. But Mervyn of course was in the cockpit and he saw everything all the time, every time [emphasis] and he, he’s also a bit more, um, dry humour, Mervyn, so I must, and of course his comments on the tour were highly coloured by the fact that he had come from peacetime Canada to wartime England. He went through the mill the same as I did, he went through Nassau and he came from Nassau to England by boat and he was sent to a manning depot of some sort at Chelmsford, no not Chelmsford, Cheltenham, Cheltenham, that’s right, Cheltenham, and of course it was a complete, complete new world to Mervyn, not only, the conditions, I mean the weather conditions, the ground conditions, he said he got hold of a, he bought a bicycle and he cycled round on this and many a time he said he’d have to stop somewhere and ask some of the locals where he was and how to get to Chelmsford and he writes that he thought they must have thought it was a funny old sort of war that this Canadian chap who didn’t know sort of how to, where he was – how did he get on over Germany! [Laugh] But er, and then the food, and the living conditions of course made a complete impact, I think the food, brussels sprouts particularly were a nightmare for poor old Mervyn, but I mean the average Brit at that time, we’d been at war for about five and a half years and the average Brit ate whatever you put down in front of him and was thankful for it, we’d been at war for five and a half years, the privations of British barrack life, I don’t remember them because I was used to the fact that in my father, my parents bathroom at Sunbury on Thames, ice formed on the inside of the windows, [laugh] you were used to bathing in that kind of conditions. But no, Mervyn’s got a lot to, to recount and as I say, in a dry humour he says, he quotes the fact that when they were shot up they were, this, what do you call it - a salvo of shells ringed them and exploded when Wallace was wounded and Wallace was wounded, and he said you know it changed his outlook because he’d, up till then the war had been really, a bit jolly, you know. You’d got a nice uniform, you travelled around the world, you got well paid, but now you suddenly realised that down there there were a bunch of men hopping about and clapping their hands and cheering because they’d nearly shot you down, they nearly killed you, that was what they were there for. [Pause] So anyway that’s how it went on. We, I think we operated at er, a higher rate of work, if you pick up Middlemiss’s I forget what it’s called, it’s the Bomber Command War Diaries 1939 ‘45, if you pick that up, they list every single sortie flown by Bomber Command and the troops who took part, the groups which were scheduled for it and the squadrons in the groups which took part, in squadron, in, it took part. The average squadron I suppose perhaps flew once every week, two weeks, something like that. Well if you look in my log book there were patches where we flew sort of six or seven squadrons more or less on alternate nights because when main force flew: 100 Group flew. In fact 100 Group flew more than that because there were many nights when the main force was stood down, probably because of weather, but they didn’t fly, 100 Group were sent out simply to stir up the Germans, to get them up in the air, [interference] particularly of course towards the end of the war because by then the night fighter force. People say, oh well the night fighter force was a spent force by the, by you know, by the time of Dresden, February ‘45, well it wasn’t exactly a spent force, there were a lot of them and, but it wasn’t as well trained and you know, it was still capable, four hundred aircraft, four hundred [\interference] British aircraft were lost between Dresden, which was on St Valentine’s night and the end of the war. It’s quite a lot of aircraft that, and [pause] but the Germans, they sent out, they harboured their forces, they sent out their aces first, you know the, because they knew that they were the men who wouldn’t go rushing in and attacking the enemy forces when they were out of range. [Timer noise]
[Other]: Sorry about that. It’s my watch.
NM: So can I?
AB: Yes, go on.
NM: You said that a lot of your operations were decoys with Window.
AB: Yes.
NM: Did you just provide the Windows screen or did you ever, always accompany the main force to the target?
AB: Well no, there was, the main stream was, what they called the Mandrel screen, Mandrel was the jammer which jammed the long range German search radars and the Mandrel screen was sent out in pairs, they were, I think they were equipped with Stirlings and they were sent out in pairs over the North Sea and then as the battle line moved east the, that became Holland and north east France, Belgium, the Mandrel screen was sent out and these pairs of aeroplanes would orbit like a racetrack, jamming away, and then every so often they would open a little window in the Mandrel screen so they would let the Germans see what was coming up behind it to confuse them and the Window force would as I say, would probably be leading the main force, the main forces, and I remember one particular raid when we were, where the turning point was Cassel and we came out of the Mandrel screen somewhere over Belgium I think or maybe north east France and then we, somewhere past the, crossing the Rhine, we were at the head of the main force and we broke off and headed for Cassel while the main force behind us carried straight on and it did one or two more zigzags but it ended up sort of pointing elsewhere, and the Window force was also reinforced, very often, by two or three aeroplanes carrying markers and bombs, particularly the Australians, hardly surprising, [Australian accent] they hadn’t come half way round the world, you know just to drop pieces of bloody paper all over Germany! So they insisted upon carrying bombs and they were in Halfaxes which still had all the bomb racks and everything else in them and they carried bomb aimers too, so to add to this bit of realism they would drop a few bombs and markers on some town to give a bit of realism. But it all worked very[interference] well. I mean It worked very well. [\interference]
NM: So did any your trips involve radio counter measures in your B24s?
AB: Sorry?
NM: Were you, did any of your operations involve radio counter-measures, in your Liberator or was it just [unclear]?
AB: Oh yes, I mean there were all sorts of gubbins. The reason why the Liberator and the Fortress were chosen for the role was because we carried an equipment called a Jostle which was a large jamming, piece of well, piece of jamming equipment and it was about two, two and a half three feet in diameter and about five or six feet long, or high whichever way you like to look at it, high, steel enclosed I think to give it a bit of durability and that, as far as I know, transmitted on the, all the known radar and voice channels that the Germans were using and as far as the equipment was concerned to fit it, to have fitted it to a Halifax or a Lancaster, you’d have had to have taken the turret out, lifted it out with a crane or something, drop the Jostle in and then put the turret back in, if it had gone in, as it was, all they had to do was to trundle the, all they had to do was trundle it over a pit, lower the Jostle into the pit, put in a new one and then go off again and the Liberator and the Fortress still had their mid upper turret in situ and serviceable whereas, was the thing with the Lanc or the Halifax, they’d have lost their mid upper armament and seriously depleted the armament of the aeroplane. And then, in addition to that, they would have all sorts of things, with all sorts of comic names: I mean Monica, [interference] Tinsel, Tinsel was the microphone which was in the engine compartment and the pilot would just switch that on and it made this [pause].
NM: You okay? [Pause] You okay?
AB: Hmm? [\interference]
NM: Are you okay?
AB: Oh no, Tinsel, Monica.
NM: So did you know at the time what the Jostle operators were using, and what Jostle was doing or were you not privy to that information at the time?
AB: Oh no, no, you, they were just special operators these two chaps, who were, well they were sort of attached to the crew really, I mean even their position in the aeroplane varied. As far as our aeroplane was concerned, G George, the um, there was a shallow space amidships, above the bomb bay, I think it was aft of the main wing spar and there was this, there was this space, I suppose it was about three or four feet deep and as wide as the fuselage and ten or fifteen, ten or twelve feet long and that had gear in it, I don’t know what, and these two chaps lived in that, they, that was their working position. But in some of the old, the aeroplanes, that was down on the flight deck on our aeroplane, G George, so you went in through the, you went in through the front, starboard, lets see: left port, right to starboard, yes, front starboard nose, bomb, er bomb bay door was operational and open, and you got out to the aeroplane and you ducked under, you ducked under the wing behind the, the engines and you climbed in through this door and as far as the navigator was concerned, in the vast majority of ops that I was on, I was always the last on board because you had such a hell of a lot of work to do and so you were whistled out to the aeroplane and you clambered on board through this open door, chucked all your gear in front of you and operated the lever to close the door and then you went through a doorway and there was the flight deck. And on your left was the wireless operator, on the right was the opening to climb through to the nose and in front of you was steps up to the flight deck itself if you like, with the two pilots. The flight engineer didn’t have any seat or anything, he just stood about like a spare prick, bit like the navigator, but on some of them, the, one of the special operators was in the wireless operator’s position, I don’t know where the wireless operator went to. The wireless operator was a bit of a, he was a bit spare, I mean his job really was only to listen out for signals from base, chief of which was perhaps hopefully the recall, [snort] but that was about all he was able to do, or send out an SOS when it came to it, came to it. That was the main thing really I think.
NM: So tell me about the time you could hear flak over the noise of the engines, it must have been -
AB: Pardon?
NM: Tell me about the time you could hear the flak over the noise of the engines, it must have been pretty close.
AB: Well yes! I mean, [Laugh] I don’t know, we were, I think we were somewhere near Cologne, and obviously we’d got a bit off track and we got the benefit of a flak burst, the er, and say, well close enough to hear it and I wrote in my log: ‘flak, I heard it!’ and the Nav Leader put in: ‘Gee, you must have been scared.’ Well I wasn’t actually, but I bet the others up on top were, who saw it all, I mean especially after they’d had the, you know, they’d had the benefit of the salvo which had put poor old Wallace out of action and given me my job. And I mean it was a bit the same as when they, I don’t know, heard the, hmm -
NM: You also had a near miss with a Lancaster, didn’t you, over East Anglia.
AB: Oh yeah. Yes.
NM: What happened then?
AB: See I mean, matter of luck, I mean there must have been countless, countless near misses of pilots who just managed to see each other in time. I can but presume that in this case the Lancaster pilot saw us in time and was able to pull up and we wendered.
NM: Did you see the Lancaster just as it missed you or did your pilot see it?
AB: Pardon?
NM: Did your pilot see it just as it missed you, the Lancaster?
AB: Yes. You what?
NM: Your pilots, did they see it?
AB: I don’t know, I don’t remember anybody saying anything actually. Well I mean whoever said it was a Lancaster with its wheels down. But, no we never, it’s funny that, you know. After the war it all fell apart, the, Mervyn Eustace disappeared more or less overnight, he was posted off back to Canada. I’m not quite sure about - I never had any, you know, it’s funny I never had any contact with the crew. Whatever books you pick up, you pick up all these books and they all say oh what a marvellous, how the, what a close knit organisation the average Bomber Command crew was, you know, this wonderful system they had where everybody was turfed into a big hangar and you were told to sort yourself out, [pause] I think it was a, it was a, is it, almost I suppose, a perfect system you might say. I remember my [interference] brother in law saying that, at least I went to his funeral and his old skipper who, funnily enough, had been in the, be in the same class as me in Wolverhampton Grammar School, George Sidebottom, saying that you know, they were looking out for a crew and they’d got everybody except a flight engineer and said somebody, one of his new crew came up and said there’s a flight engineer in the next room who’s looking for a crew, said a nice bloke, got a funny sort of name, Mendelski it was, [\interference] and that’s how Vic Mendelski got crewed up. But that never happened to me. As I say, I was just plonked in with Pop Hedges in Nassau and we were plonked in with Pop, with Pop Hedges and Tommy Steele and I was second navigator to Freddie Freak and that was it, no choice. So actually when, I never had really much rapport with them, at Oulton when we first got there, I think they tended, Tommy Steele, Freddie Freak and er, and er, dear god, what was the wireless operator’s name? Hmm. I’ve forgotten what, anyway, the wireless operator. I think they had a rapport because all three of them had done ops on Coastal so, you know, they knew what it was about. I never had any chums. The Canadians, I think tended to live together, hardly surprisingly, and one of the reason was they pooled their food parcels and so they didn’t sort of hang about the mess like we Brits did, but even so, it, so I never had a rapport and then Tony Morris, Tony Morris’s father I think I said, had been English, he’d been in the British Army in the First World War and then emigrated and Tony, when he went on leave, searched out members of the Morris family. Mervyn Eustace’s brother had done, had just done a tour in Coastal Command, no it wasn’t Coastal, in Bomber Command and when he went on leave [pause] you, you, no sorry, I was away somewhere else.
NM: Just one last question for you.
AB: Mervyn used, we used to call him useless, Mervyn Eustace, he used to go off and look out, look up his brother who’d just done a tour in Bomber Command, and they didn’t come anywhere near the mess when they were on leave so I never saw any of them and it was several years [emphasis] afterwards before I made contact and I think [emphasis] I made contact through um, Vowler, Ron Vowler who er, did a lot of research after ex members of 223 Squadron and then Tony Morris, he was a geologist, an oil geologist, and he did a lot of flying through London to the Far East or, you know, where the oil fields were and he always tried to contact me whenever he came through but, and certainly -
NM: Just one last question for you Andrew, when you look back and reflect, what do you think of your time in Bomber Command? What does that time mean to you?
AB: Pardon?
NM: What does that time you spent in Bomber Command, what does that mean to you now looking back over the years?
AB: Well, I don’t know really. I, I mean I don’t think it really sort of meant anything. It was just something which um, [pause] I suppose, I mean I joined the, I joined the University Air Squadron I suppose because I don’t know that I really thought about it actually. Ach, I don’t know really, I never sort of discussed anything with my parents as I say, as I said at the beginning I don’t remember ever being asked if I’d like to become a naval cadet. I was brought up in a, in a background of [pause] – yeah.
NM: Shall we give it a rest? Shall we? Thank you for your time.
AB: Yes, I don’t think I ever really thought, I never thought about what I was going to do after the war or anything like that. I think, I think our tempo of operations in 100 Group, in 223 Squadron was significantly higher than the average main force crew. As I say, if you look at Middlemiss’s diary of Bomber Command, you know, you’ll see that squadrons didn’t fly continuously, I think 100 Group, 223 Squadron flew at a higher tempo than those sort of squadrons, so I suppose from that point of view, yeah, we didn’t really have time to sort of ruminate and think what you were going to do afterwards.
NM: Okay, I think what we’ll do, we’ll finish the interview there, thank you for your time and your memories and -
AB: I felt I’ve been wandering off a bit this afternoon. Did you get that feeling?
NM: No, it’s. Absolutely fine, It was perfect, thank you very much. We appreciate all the information you’ve been able to give us. Thank you Andrew.
AB: [Interference] So what the fellers, up until D-Day didn’t I think realise was that the aircrew Europe was for all aircrew, I mean it wasn’t Bomber Command wasn’t the only part of the air force that was operational after 1939, I mean there was Bomber Command, there was Coastal Command, there was all sorts of people, there were the chaps who fought in France of course as part of the British Expeditionary Force, they were operational aircrew and if they hadn’t had the aircrew Europe they wouldn’t have anything, poor sods.
NM: So you didn’t mind too much that Bomber Command wasn’t recognised.
AB: No, no.
[Other]: It wasn’t appreciated or recognised.
AB: I mean it was a bit distasteful, [\interference] the fact that we had to wait about another seventy years for some recognition and we got the aircrew, we got the -
[Other]: The Bomber Command Clasp.
AB: The Bomber Command Clasp, which I mean was similar to the Battle of Britain and various other clasps for various special operations, but where do you end, end up like the Americans with a - [laugh]
[Other]: Getting a medal for joining, which the Americans do. Five minutes after they’ve joined they’ve got a medal!
AB: Yes, yes. Well, I mean good luck to them. I read a very interesting book recently Mud, Blood and-
NM: Okay, so we’re looking at -
AB: I’ve got the types of tasks that 100 Group had to, or at least the two squadrons had to carry out was, one was just the plain, was the plain spoof target, now that’s Cassel there, now you see we came out on this line, where there’re two arrows, we came out on this line and then we carried on to here and split off up to Cassel to make it look as if we were going to attack Cassel, the rest of the force didn’t, they went off somewhere else to make it appear that way. Then the other thing was when there were no [emphasis] main force operations at all the same sort of spoof force would be sent out just to get the Germans up into the air. Simply. Nothing more, no less than that. And then the other was the target cover where you were sent out with [emphasis] the Pathfinder Force, with [emphasis] the main force to the target and the first plane would be, would be timed on to the target at about five, seven, eight minutes before the bombs were due to go down and you’d fly round and round and Mervyn puts it rather dryly, that everybody would turn on the navigator and say: go on, you know, we’re nowhere near the bloody target, you’re lost, you know, nothing’s happening, we’re the only aeroplane over Germany! And then there’d be the markers would go down and he said then everybody would be clapping their hands and thanking the navigator. And you know, you’d fly round the target for however long you were told and in the meantime, somebody else from your squadron would come up and he’d [emphasis] be circling the target and you’d be just jamming any radars that you, and any voice transmissions that you could hear, or that your operators could hear, you’d be jamming those while you were flying round the target, of course the one you didn’t particularly want was the one where they’d all gone home and they’d left you to tootle along behind them. But I would like to, you know, turn this in to something a little more legible.
NM: Just to explain we are looking a map of Western Europe with Andrew’s pilots, all his operations during the war. [Voice in the background]
AB: The other one that you didn’t want to go near was Hamburg and the Elbe estuary and then of course you’ve got the eastern cities, you’ve got Berlin itself, you’ve got, I’m not sure what that is -
NM: That’s Leipzig.
AB: And there’s, is that? No that’s Munich down there, Dresden’s somewhere in here but they got it later on in the war. Never talked about it. Nobody ever talked, never talked to anybody in the squadron, oh we wasted our evenings singing silly songs, [laugh] singing rude silly songs, most of which I’ve long since forgotten: probably just as well. But you know, there was no glorification about it, was, you know and we’re too bloody busy to worry about things, as I say the, you went into briefing and the [creaking] guards drew the, locked the doors and would have shot anybody who tried anything, and then all the Group Captain, the Station Commander and all the, Navigation Leader and everybody else all trooped on board and the curtains were pulled aside and there was a bloody great map, quarter inch map of Northern Europe with the red lines all over it and you knew where you were going. Well, you didn’t, you knew where everybody, everybody was going and who individually went where, I’ve had no idea. Poor old Richard Ford and other historians have probed us endlessly to try to find out when you knew where we were going, I said I’ve no ideas. [telephone ringing] At some time they would be given the specific route that they were to fly because if you were in one of the spoof things you were all spread out, so that spread was achieved by giving you slightly different positions to which to navigate.
[Other]: They all started off in a group and then they split, and split, and split to make it appear a much bigger group.
NM: Right, yup.
[Other]: That was it, wasn’t it darling?
AB: Yeah, I mean the only thing I can remember is that I used to think that it was a big guessing game, that the German controller was, the German controllers were saying [accent] is it dis vun, or dat vun, or der uder vun, or whatever, you know. But in fact the command, I mean our command, Bomber Command for a start, and then 100 Group Command for a second thing and finally the station itself would get down to the detailed plotting of, well, G George from so-and-so go so-and-so and J Jeep for another one and so it would go on, but when that happened I’ve no idea, you know you just, you just did it, you bloody got on with it.
[Other]: Darling, did you tell Nigel about taking German speaking English people with you?
AB: No I didn’t actually.
[Other]: From time to time, and they used to countermand the orders the Germans were being given and said no, no, no, that’s the British talking to you.
AB: That was quite widespread actually, they were, you know, right throughout main force, there was a lot of that as well, you know, German speaking operators were carried on board to -
[Other]: Countermand the German instructions to their crews.
AB: yes.
[Other]: There was quite a lot of jiggery pokery that we know nothing about!
AB: Yeah.
NM: Well, I think I’ll conclude it there on behalf of the Centre, so thank you very much for your time, both of you.
[Other]: Well thank you for your time!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Andrew Barron. Two
Creator
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Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-04-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarronAJK190418, PBarronAJK1901
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:57:00 audio recording
Description
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Andrew hitchhiked from Edmonton to Calgary and then on to Mountain View by train. Gunnery training was in a Bolingbroke which had a mid-upper turret; bombing training was done in an Anson. Andrew was then posted to navigation school in Quebec for four or five months. He passed out as a navigator and was then posted to a general reconnaissance school on Prince Edward Island for about six to eight weeks. When commissioned he flew on B-24s - the crew went about halfway to Bermuda on an exercise to find a destroyer. Andrew was sent to Moncton where he awaited being shipped back to Great Britain and eventually posted to RAF Oulton in Norfolk where he joined Bomber Command on 223 Squadron. The crew flew in an Oxford on ‘Big Ben sorties’ up and down the Dutch coast spotting for V-2 rockets. Later they did decoy operations flying out with the main force. Andrew then became a navigator on B-24s. He recalled the time when they flew over Cologne and could hear the enemy’s anti-aircraft fire over the roar of their engine. On another occasion they had a near miss with a Lancaster.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Alberta
New Brunswick
Prince Edward Island
Alberta--Calgary
Alberta--Edmonton
England--Norfolk
Germany--Cologne
New Brunswick--Moncton
Québec
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Ontario--Belleville
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Group
223 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
B-24
Bolingbroke
bombing
Lancaster
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Oulton
training
V-2
V-weapon
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1258/17169/PBarronAJK1901.2.jpg
f6b3bac684a11f7127d93f5570e15270
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1258/17169/ABarronAJK190510.2.mp3
592fca1b7e87ec021b88a698e656db66
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Barron, Andrew
Andrew James Kelton Barron
A J K Barron
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Flight Lieutenant Andrew Barron (1923 - 2021, 163695 Royal Air Force) He flew 38 operations as a navigator in 223 Squadron at RAF Oulton flying B-24s.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-10
2018-04-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Barron, AJK
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: Okay, so this is Nigel Moore, I’m with Andrew Barron and we’re going to catch up from where we started last time. So Andrew, can you tell me a bit about life on the squadron when you were off duty, when you weren’t on ops, what were you, how did you socialise, what did you do?
AB: I’m sorry, what was it you wanted?
NM: When you weren’t on operations, tell me about the squadron life, what did you do for recreation and down time?
AB: Drank too much and sang silly songs! Really, wasted my time I think would be the, the most succinct explanation. I had no social life really, on the squadron, as I’ve already explained. I was pitchforked into this half qualified crew in the Bahamas and I had really no sort of social contact with them. The captain had flown, as far as I know, half a tour in Coastal Command, so had the navigator and so had the, the chief wireless operator. The rest of us were all sprogs who were drafted in to the crew to make it up and we had no particular social contact. I don’t know what their, what they did. I don’t think Scotty Steele, the skipper, was very happy. He’d, his experience had all been Coastal Command long range patrols, flying at about a thousand feet, two thousand feet perhaps, over the oceans for twelve or thirteen hours, and he had no, he had, I don’t think he had any chums in the squadron either, they were all stranger to him and I don’t think he took to night flying in the, at high altitude in the Liberator, and in fact I think he had one or two rather dodgy landings and I believe [emphasis] he sort of disappeared from the squadron after a few weeks. The, I was pitchforked into this Canadian crew, and as I’ve explained, the skipper, his father had been in the British Army in the First World War in Mesopotamia, funnily enough the same as my father, and I think Tony used to go off searching up his English relatives up in the north of England. The co-pilot, Mervyn Eustace, his brother had just completed a tour in 4 Group, I think it was 4 Group, which was the, either 4 Group or 6 Group which was the Canadian bomber group and Mervyn used to go off to seek out his brother who was, um – god, what are they called - he was at Shawbury acting as an instructor to new crews coming over so that disposed of them and I just used to go home and as far as, when I was on leave, and as far as the rest of the time was concerned, I think we worked a rather more intensive pace in 100 Group than the average main force group. If you look in Middlemiss’s tome The Bomber Command Diaries you’ll find that, you know, a different, groups weren’t turned out, they didn’t operate at every night that Bomber Command was operating: 100 Group did. 100 Group went out with everybody. Either we went with the main force to jam the radars in the target area or else we were sent out with, as a diversionary force or if main force wasn’t operating we were sent out to stir up the Germans anyway. So you look at my log book and there’d be, perhaps, in a week we’d fly four sorties, maybe, five sorties; Bomber Command didn’t operate at that pace. So we didn’t have all that much of a social life in the mess anyway and some of us were bookish, and Ron Johnson, who was one of the squadron navigators, he studied music I think in his spare time in the mess. I just used to go in there and drink and when I’d had enough, or probably too much, I’d stagger off to bed and sleep it off until the next day. And we used to sing silly songs, you know, good night ladies and of course the WAAF officers never did go off to bed, they used to stay and listen to us. They were all schoolboy songs, just snippets of which I remember [chuckle] and that was it. I know, oh dear, think er, I’ve forgotten the chap’s name, but the fellow who more or less runs things in the little village of Oulton le Street organises the teas for all us chaps when we come up for our memorial celebration in a week’s time and he’s asked me sort of what were my impressions. I didn’t have any impressions of Oulton, you know, they were just houses there and we drove past the houses as we went to our various offices, the, there was an intelligence room which had digests of the previous night’s operations and you know, you could leaf through those and I remember my sort of impression of them was that if the losses had risen to two figures, you know, we hadn’t done a very good job, you know, we ought to have done better than that and it had various publications of, you know, trying to instil a better spirit in us I suppose, but I don’t think, well, as I say I [emphasis] don’t think, I don’t think, I’ve no idea what other people thought because we never discussed the previous night’s operations, we never discussed what we were doing. The jamming was highly secret and it was more than your life was worth to try to chat up anybody about what all these weird instruments were that were in the back of the aeroplane, you know, they’re not your business laddie, but would you like to have a spell in Sheffield in the RAF’s penitentiary for asking too many questions, so you didn’t ask any questions and we just wiled the, they er, wiled the, our life away if you know. One day some of us went up to town and bought ourselves revolvers and small arms of that kind and I know I got a Webley which had a 22 sort of insert in it and we used to go down and shoot at the trees on the Blickling Estate. It just really, wasted my time.
NM: Going back to operations, when you wrote to me, an email you described -
AB: Pardon?
NM: When you wrote to me an email recently you described how you were, on approach back to Oulton, you were overtaken by a German fighter aircraft on its way to shoot down a B17 ahead of you. Tell me about that.
AB: Oh yes, that was Unternehmen Giselle, trust the Germans to make Giselle into an unfortunate name like Giselle. Anyway, the Germans in, I think it was, it’ll be in my log book, but early March ‘45 they sent in I think about two hundred night fighters with the, they infiltrated the main force on its way back home and they kept schtum until they were over the UK and the planes were circling their bases coming in to land and they intercepted a B17 which was, of 214 Squadron, which was coming in to land and shot it down, literally, just about as it touched down and they were all killed, all the crew were all killed. And according to Mervyn Eustace the plane had actually flown past us as we were orbiting overhead, you know, waiting our turn to land, and of course as soon as the balloon went up we got the order to disperse and the, Tony said: ‘course for Brawdy navigator.’ Brawdy being somewhere down in south west Wales, so I gave him 270 as being the nearest westerly heading that came into my head and off we went. All the lights out, all the gunners at their positions and everything on an active basis and we stooged off into the darkness of the Midlands and after about twenty minutes I got a fix, you know, a Gee fix, not a, that kind of fix, and found a wind from that and did the job properly you know, and laid off a course for this place Brawdy and we got there about, oh I don’t know, about an hour later, something like that and kipped down for the night, flew back the next day.
[Other]: I’m really sorry to interrupt. Daddy, do you know what mummy’s pass code is for her?
NM: So you took part in the last operation of the war, tell me about that.
AB: Yes, we, it was um, a feint to Schleswig. It was when they thought that the Germans were going to mount an attack from the forces that they’d got in Norway. There were two things, there were, one was that they were going to launch an attack from Norway and the other one was that they were going to launch their forces from down in the Alps, I think, using Bertchesgarten as the operational headquarters but both failed of course and the Germans surrendered.
NM: So how many of your operations were in daylight and how many were at night time?
AB: Sorry?
NM: How many of your operations were in daylight and how many were at night?
AB: Oh, I only did four daylight, those were the Big Bens right at the very beginning, you know, when they thought that the V2s were radio controlled, but they discovered that they weren’t so that was finished. They realised that there was no protection against the V2s, no warning, nothing, they just came out of the blue, and er, ooh, and blew a, excuse me, I’ve got a bit uncomfortable there-
NM: Are you all right? Do you want to move?
AB: So, as I say, the Big Bens were closed down and we were put on to the, the ordinary Window diversionary sorties, well the, the three operations. One was the escorting of the main force, jamming whatever the special operators could pick up as we flew along with [emphasis] the main force and when we got to the targets, orbiting it for, oh probably eight or ten minutes, something like that and jamming anything that they could hear, they could pick up. That was the one operation then the second one was the Window spoof forces, where a couple of dozen or so mixed force of Liberators, Fortresses and Halifaxes went out from the Heavy Squadrons in 100 Group and they mounted a, a spoof; they would break away from the main force and pretend to be an attacking force on another target. I used to think at the time that it was all a big guessing game but in fact it was very carefully thought out and timed to convince the Germans that it was a genuine attacking force, it wasn’t just a, a spoof. And then if Bomber Command was stood down for the night, usually because of the weather, 100 Group would be sent out, a couple of dozen planes would go out, everything else, a Mandrel screen would go up to, to screen the approaching forces from the, from Britain and that was carefully timed and little gaps would be opened in it to allow the Germans to get a glimpse of the opposing forces coming behind the screen and we would be sent out to threaten some town or city. It was helped by the fact that one of the other squadrons, I forget what its number was, but it was an Australian squadron, they always carried a few bombs and markers cause as they said, [Australian accent] they weren’t gonna come half way round the world just to drop bits of paper over Germany! So they carried bombs but we never did. The Fortresses and the Liberators were both completely, all their bombing equipment had been all stripped out and so that was left to the Halifaxes and that was it and then on May 2nd it all finished.
NM: So when it all finished, what was it like on the squadron?
AB: I don’t really remember. I think everybody was sort of, you know, quite happy, have another drink. We were allowed to go on Cooks’ tours round the Ruhr, you know, to see what sort of damage had been done by Bomber Command and crews were left to pick their own routes. And I did a couple, I did one with Tony in a Liberator, they’re in here somewhere. [Noises of opening box, looking through papers] You see here’s November, November the 4th, the 15th, the 25th and then the 25th, 26th, 29th, 30th – well main force didn’t operate at that sort of strength. See the 25th of November was a Window, we had to climb to twenty four thousand feet. That was another of the advantages of the, the Fortress and the Liberator, they had a higher ceiling than the Lancaster. Then the next night it was a Window, again, and then three nights later another Window, and the next night another Window: busy, busy. And one or two other months were a bit like that. February: 20th, 22nd, 24th, 28th as I say you compare, and March 7th, 20th, 22nd, 23rd, if you compare that with the Bomber Command Diaries it would have been different groups would have been out and not all the squadrons in all the Groups would have been turned out, so that over a fairly [emphasis] short period I flew thirty eight sorties. Even April, 2nd, 7th , 10th. The 2nd was a Window, the 7th was a target, Malbis, which is an, sort of a outskirt of Leipzig, and the 10th again was a Window all way to Dessau to Leipzig. The Russians are coming – show ’em what the RAF can do. Well, there was an element of that. And that was, as I say the Meritorious Service and Good Airmanship in that a full operational tour. I was only once uncertain of my position and that was I think on the 1st of January 1945 when I’d been very late to bed the night before, celebrating the New Year, and found myself on the ops list on the 1st of January, rather hung over, and I made some gross navigational error, I don’t know what it was, I’ve not been able to discover what it was, but anyway it, we ran out of Window. We ran out of engines actually, we ended up on two and a half engines for a start, and then we ran out of Window and so Tony decided to cut it short and go home but we didn’t get penalised for it which was what counted.
NM: You made it back home on two and a half engines did you?
AB: Yes, yes.
NM: Running low on fuel.
AB: Yes, but then you say, at the, I never did get on to the Cooks Tours; here we come. May the 2nd, that was the last operational sortie; that was the Window to Schleswig aerodrome: uneventful, thirty two, and then on the 5th of May we did an air test and on the 7th of May with Tony, we did a cross country: we went to Gravesend, Dungeness, Cap Griz-Nez, Ypres, Brussels, Aachen, Koblenz, Cologne, Dortmund, Essen, Duisburg, Krefeld, oh and so on and back home and that was the one I remember. It was a nice clear day, sun shining and we flew all over the Ruhr and the whole thing was glistening with the broken glass and in the whole length and breadth of the Ruhr there was only one railway train to be seen operating, so you know, it was, it was flattened. Mind you it was a bit deceptive because of course what the bombs did, they blew out the windows, they blew off the roofs, but they didn’t in many cases, they didn’t destroy the heavy machinery so that a lot of production carried on. That was on the 7th and then on the 26th I was called in to, I was at RAF Swannington at that time – I’ll tell you about that in a few minutes - on the 26th of May I did a trip in a Fortress of 223 Squadron and that was a rather limited one. We did Cap Gris-Nez, Antwerp, the Ruhr, the Mohne Dam, Vimy Ridge and back to Oulton. I was rather keen on Vimy Ridge because when I was a boy, one of my father's friends in Wolverhampton was actually a Canadian who’d come over with the Canadian forces and had decided to stay in England after the First World War, and of course Vimy Ridge was a Canadian operation, they organised the whole thing themselves and it was a majority of Canadian forces who took part in it and they captured the Ridge and it put Canada on the map. After that Canada got its independence.
NM: When you flew over the Ruhr and places like the Mohne Dam what did, can you remember what you thought at the time looking down at all the damage?
AB: Pardon?
NM: Can you remember what your thoughts were when you flew over the Ruhr valley and saw the damaged cities?
AB: Not really. No, I, you know, I didn’t feel vengeful, or sort of there you are you bastards, you got what you asked for.
NM: Was it just professional detachment?
AB: I just noted the fact that the place was just a carpet of broken glass glistening in the sunshine. I don’t think, I mean, again, I can only speak for myself, I can’t speak for others cause I never asked them anything, but I don’t think, I don’t think many fellows had a vengeful feeling, you know, we got in to the war and we won it and that was it. You know, I don’t know if fellers whose fathers had been in the trenches in the First World War used to talk about it with their fathers or if they did, what they had to say about it. No idea, it was, you were just there and you did it.
NM: Tell me about your RAF -
AB: Pardon?
NM: Tell me about your RAF service after the war.
AB: Er, yes, well of course, I remember vaguely being posted up to Yorkshire, to, and according to my log book where you can record your units at which served as observer, 223 Squadron 7th of May ‘45 and then the 10th of May, 77 Squadron, Full Sutton, Yorkshire for a day: got 10th of May to 11th of the May and then the 11th of the May, of May I was posted to 102 Squadron at Pocklington until the 15th and I do have some record of that. RAF, 102 Squadron, 1st of June: local flying: circuits and bumps. And 7th of June: more circuits and bumps. And this went on until the 9th of June, was a busy day, flew four sorties, to, we flew to Snaith where we picked up a load of bombs, thirteen by eight by thirty pounds and we flew out to sea somewhere and dropped them in the sea, I ask you. We did three of those.
NM: That was in Halfaxes.
AB: And that was with, yes, in the Halifax, that was with Flying Officer Briscoe as the captain. Well Flying Officer Briscoe had been a pre war University Air Squadron pilot and had learned to fly, he’d actually got his wings as a cadet in the University Air Squadron and he was an ex, he worked in the Air Ministry as a Civil Aviation, came under the aegis of the Air Ministry pre war, and John Briscoe was a member of that organisation so the instruction came round that we were destined to be Tiger Force to go out to the Far East and teach the Japanese what was which, but obviously some time in June the decision was made that you had to be a volunteer to go out to the Far East and John Briscoe had decided he didn’t want to volunteer, so that was that. He disappeared. And then mixed up in the middle of that you see it says here, 102 Squadron: 11th of May to 15th of May, June disappears and then I was, on the 15th of May to the end of May I was sent down to RAF Swannington which was one of the 100 Group night fighter bases and was the home of 85 Squadron and 157 Squadron and I was sent down there to learn these Mosquito navigators how to do the job properly. I felt a right bloody lemon cause there was me, you know, nothing on my chest but a few hairs and half these blokes had got DFCs and DFMs, and DSOs and you name it and so as I say I felt a bit of a lemon and then I was, that was cancelled and I was sent back to, I suppose I was sent back to 102 Squadron. I remember one of the Mosquito fellers flew me up to Pocklington to rejoin 102 Squadron or whatever it was. And then Japan collapsed and I wanted to, I decided that I didn’t want to go back to college, that I’d stay in aviation, there was a future in aviation and I’d stay in aviation and become [cough] a civil navigator, little knowing of course at the time that the pilots were busy manoeuvring all the other crew members out of their seats; the pilots were going to take over the navigation, I don’t know what was going to happen to wireless operators, I think they were just going to disappear because it was all going to be voice transmission over the oceans and everywhere but anyway I decided that I’d stay in civil aviation and [cough] what I needed was experience of long distance flying, you know, to present to some prospective employer that I was the right sort of material that they wanted. So I tried to, [cough] I tried to get in to one of the squadrons that was doing these long range passenger work, I think I mentioned that the Lancasters and Halifaxes were re-employed to fly out to the Far East and come back with, you know, fifteen or couple of dozen squaddies who were due to be demobbed because the airmen and soldiers in India and the Far East were getting very restive because they knew that men were being demobbed in Europe and they weren’t and they didn’t like that and there were some near mutinies. But so anyway, I left Pocklington, presumably I left Pocklington, according to my log book it said 102 Squadron and actually the next entry, 102 Squadron, oh that’s right, Pocklington, 31st of May to the 11th June ‘45 and then I entered into an interesting period, during which I was crewed up with a, I forget what his name was, Purvis I think, who’d been, a man who had been flying Halifaxes and we were posted to Mashing, we were posted to Great Dunmow, Earls Colne, about a half a dozen aerodromes in 38 Group in Essex. We were posted to them and we’d get to them and they’d say: oh no you, you’re Halifax trained, we’re flying Stirlings in this squadron so, you know, go away on leave and so I stayed on leave until [laugh] until the 13th of November 1945 when we arrived at Shepherd’s Grove which is just east of Bury St Edmunds, 196 Squadron and it was flying Stirlings in 38 Group and they said, oh yes, you know, no problem old boy, you know, we’ll convert you on the squadron and this is in fact what they did because I stayed with them until March of 1946. And in March 1946 I was posted to the Empire Air Navigation School at Shawbury to become a specialist navigator which would hopefully improve my possibility of gaining a permanent commission in the air force. Well in fact, I didn’t get, I was turned down, I don’t know why. In those days you weren’t told if there was something unsatisfactory in your RAF career. There is now apparently, they have to tell you and you have the right to, I forget what the wording is, anyway, you can complain against the fact that you were turned down for a permanent commission or whatever but in those days you weren’t so I ended up at Shawbury and I spent probably two months at Shawbury, learning to be an advanced navigator, which in fact was a load of old rubbish because you know, we thought it was a laugh a minute you know, the RAF had got its fingers on all sorts of German navigation equipment and they thought it was a bit of a laugh but in fact of course, it wasn’t; the Germans, certainly in 1940 were well advanced on the RAF. The RAF’s pre war navigation was, well it wasn’t a joke, it was very much less [emphasis] than a joke, the RAF hadn’t got any idea how to bloody well navigate at night or at long distance and they would land near a railway station and ask them where they were all that sort of stuff. The Germans had this nichbein, bent knee, I think that’s what it meant, they had this nichbein equipment which enabled them to bomb Coventry with considerable accuracy in 1940. [pause] It erm, and they had various other bits of equipment; they had a thing called the kirskopler which was really just a method of following a defined track, what the RAF, when we were training in Canada, was look down on on its nose, called track crawling, where you, you followed the track that you’d been given to fly and when you’d found you were off track, you made a correction of course to get back on track, which I used to do, much to the disgust of our Navigation Leader of course, who used to call it guestimation. But we thought we were going to be the bees knees, but in fact of course I mean even at that time the airlines were busy phasing out the navigators, as I said, they were training pilots to be navigators and there were two or three rather advanced BOAC pilots who, who had cottoned on to this jet-stream business, you know, they had been transatlantic pilots and they had noticed that you got these very strong winds and they happened under certain meteorological conditions and I mean you know, proper navigation, it took off after that, but I didn’t know of course all that, it was happening. So I quite happily went to Shawbury and did the short N navigation course which didn’t get me a permanent commission or anything like that. So I left Shawbury and was posted to Tarrant Rushton down in Dorset which was within weeks of closing and I was posted in as deputy Station Navigation Officer, a high faluting title. My boss was V. J. Wright I think, who’d been a bank manager in Great Dunmow and he was the Station Navigation Officer and it was interesting, they’d taken part in Arnhem. Incidentally I forgot to mention that at 196 Squadron where we finished our tour round East Anglia and were given a home, every man on the squadron had been shot down over Arnhem, it was that bad, and one of them had got the MC and they reckoned he would have had the VC if he hadn’t shot his mouth off quite so much about his exploits once he’d been shot down; I forget what his name was. Anyway, and then when Tarrant Rushton closed down and I left there with a truck full of surplus instruments of various kinds: I had three or four sextants and that, because the worst thing you could do in the air force was to end up with a surplus on your inventory. When you came to close down an inventory you couldn’t show any surplus equipment because, well, where did it become surplus from? And then of course there was a long and tedious investigation as to why [emphasis] this particular piece of equipment was surplus to requirement? So in the, anyway, from there I was posted to Netheravon which was one of the first World War One RAF aerodromes and in the foyer of the officers mess they had a, oh I don’t know, one of these pre First World War rotary engines on a stand and the story was that when they were doing some [cough] excavating there they’d dug this engine up [laugh] and it was on display. The, the Chief Technical Officer, he was a bit more down to earth, he said, oh he said, you know what happened there, they found it was surplus to somebody's inventory and they buried the bloody thing. Well they might have done, but anyway, they had this thing on display there. It was an interesting unit. It was the Heavy Glider Servicing Unit of 38 Group and they had the Horsa gliders which was the, no, the, yes it was the Horsa glider, which was the man carrying glider in use in the British forces. They used to carry about, I think it carried about a couple of dozen soldiers, you know, volunteers, you, you and you, you – you’re all volunteers. They landed hours before D-Day on the west, on the eastern side of the British Sector and their job was to capture the bridge over the river Orne which bordered the western edge of the, of the zone, the landing zone, and they did this and it was abs, we, it’s worth a visit if you get the chance. These gliders, they landed these bloody gliders within feet, [emphasis] I mean feet [emphasis] of the targets that they were supposed to land the things on. Mind you, the chop rate was pretty terrible. I think about half the glider pilots were killed of course because they, it had made these heavy landings in the darkness and very often they came to rest on these steel girders which the Germans had buried in the ground as a deterrent to that sort of thing. But it was an incredible job, they, they, this glider force, who were, I think they were the Ox and Bucks Light Infantry, you know, they were just volunteered for the job and they did a, anyway they had these Horsa gliders at Netheravon and they used to do all sorts of experimental things, like snatching them. You know, you’d sit in the glider and the tow rope would be taken out in the front and a big loop put up on a pole and a Dakota would come roaring over the top trailing a hook and this hook would engage in this loop and literally pull the glider off the ground; it was quite exciting. I mean you, I did it both sitting in the glider and sitting in the Dakota and the glider took off with a bloody great jerk and the Dakota came sailing over and the airspeed indicator read something like about a hundred and, I don’t know, a hundred and thirty, a hundred and fifty knots and the hook would take and this bloody great drum in the, in the Dakota would start spinning round and the airspeed would go “eurgh” and fall down to about eighty knots, very exciting. But, er, I spent some months doing that and then where was I, at H, yeah, the Heavy Glider Servicing Unit, oh that’s right and then I was in June ‘47 I was posted to TICU, Transport Initial Conversion Unit at Bertram Newton which was very nice because that was a pre war station as well. I mean Netheravon was very nice cause it was pre First World War station and it was, that was very pleasant. I used to have a running battle with the adjutant there, Ross Beldin, because I used to go off every weekend, used to go back home every weekend and I was busy courting then and on Monday mornings I’d catch the local train cause Dorothea lived in the next town up towards London, so I’d catch this train and meet up with her at Hampton station and when we got to London I’d walk her across to her office in the city and say goodbye to her and then I’d get off to Waterloo station and catch the nine something to Salisbury, where I’d get out. I’d had breakfast on the nine o’clock train, very civilised, and I’d get off at Salisbury and the glider pilots, there were always a load of glider pilots on the train and they’d always got transport, you know, they’d got their own jeeps and that, so I’d get a lift up to Netheravon and I’d sneak in to Netheravon just about round lunchtime and the Adjutant, the Station Adjutant, Flight Lieutenant Beldin, he knew I was up to something, he knew I was absent on Monday mornings but he never managed to catch me and, until one day he saw me after lunch I think, and he ‘oh!’ he said, ‘the CO wants to know where you were this morning.’ So I gave him some cock and bull story, ‘oh well,’ he said, ‘he wants a report about it,’ he said, ‘so let me have it this afternoon.’ So I thought you sneaky bastard, he doesn’t know I’m missing in the mornings, so anyway I went back to my room and wrote this report and took it up and there was nobody in the adjutant ‘s office so I thought ha, I’ve got you you bastard, so I knocked on the CO’s door to give him this report and the bloody adjutant was in with the CO, he said: ‘oh yes,’ he said, ‘I’ll give it to the old man, thank you very much.’ And that was the last I ever heard of it, but he, later on, he got dismissed from the service for having hanky panky with a WAAF when, the days when it wasn’t allowed to do that sort of thing I think. It’s a bit, they’re a bit more open these days, but not in those days they weren’t. So anyway, I went up to TICU and that was quite pleasant, but it was just classroom work and I wasn’t getting any flying, and I thought well sod this so I deferred my leaving the air force by about two years I think, but I realised I was wasting my time, the air force wasn’t going to give me what I wanted so I packed that in and after about, I don’t know how many months at TICU, oh, about six months, 23rd of June to the 2nd of December 1947 I came out and I went to ooh, something aviation training limited and got myself a civil licence which again was full of esoteric rubbish, you know: how to construct a chart and all sorts of things that you, you never saw in a year’s, so anyway I got my licence. There weren’t any jobs going and I was very lucky, I got engaged and I got a job, I think it was advertised in the Telegraph or something like that, as a navigation instructor at one of the RAF’s Reserve Flying Schools. They’d reconstituted the Volunteer Reserve after the war and I got a job at Castle Brom with number, forget which number it was, it was either 5 or 18, 5, 5 RFS at Castle Bromwich, which is all blocks of flats now, and that was quite interesting, I learnt a lot there. I learned not to shoot lines, because I discovered that I was talking with, many of my reservists had forgotten far more about operational flying than I knew. One chap had been flying Vickers Wellingtons, which was a single engined RAF long range bomber pre war [laugh] an antiquated machine and he was flying with a squadron of them from, I think from Khartoum actually, and when Italy entered the war on Germany’s side, he said they had to go and bomb Eritrea and Italian East Africa and he said they used to get the wogs, they used to get the natives to light a bonfire at a deter, at a designated position sort of way out in the desert a hundred, hundred and fifty miles away from Khartoum and they’d fly to that and find a wind from it and then they’d use that to navigate round Italian East Africa. [Laugh] Very crude navigation, but that was the standard of RAF navigation, you know, I mean the first sorties that the RAF flew over Germany in 1939, 1940 were ridiculous. I mean the Germans were in fact well ahead of us. Well that’s it then.
NM: So, Castle Bromwich, what happened after Castle Bromwich?
AB: Pardon?
NM: You were at Castle Bromwich?
AB: Oh yes! I spent about eighteen months, two years at Castle Brom and the Chief Flying Instructor left and went down to Fairoaks, which is near near Woking, and he contacted me and he said he had a vacancy for a Chief Ground Instructor would you like to come down and have it? It was another, I don’t know fifty, hundred pounds a year pay better of, which mattered in those days. I mean you know, when I started my pay was about four hundred or four fifty a year and we lived quite happily on that too. So anyway, I accepted his offer and we bought a caravan and lived in that. Somebody towed it down to Fairoaks for us and we lived quite happily in that and I spent about another three and a half four years doing that, until - I’ll give you the date - until 19th of June ‘53, 19th of June ‘53 when the government of the day decided that the next war was going to be a push button war and there wouldn’t be time to call up Reservists let alone retrain them, so the Volunteer Reserve was shut down and we all had to look for other jobs and the best offer I got was as a flight navigator with Scottish Aviation flying Yorks all over the world and I did that for five years until they decided that they weren’t going to do that sort of flying any more, but I enjoyed it. Whether it trained me for married life I don’t know, probably not.
NM: So after Scottish Aviation?
AB: But er, pardon?
NM: After Scottish Aviation?
AB: Yes, I was flying Yorks. The York was the transport plane developed from the Lancaster in the, in the 1940s and of course it was basically the RAF’s only heavy transport aeroplane. Churchill used one for flying around about all over the world and it was extensively used. Wasn’t a bad plane. Climbed like a lead balloon, terrible rate of climb, you know, about five hundred feet a minute or something. So it took me a long, long time to get used to the modern aeroplanes’ rate of climb. You know, you get in the thing, you sit on the runway and the pilot calls out rotate and the next thing you’re about three thousand feet up in the air!
NM: So what did you do after Scottish Aviation?
AB: Pardon?
NM: What did you do after Scottish Aviation?
AB: I became an air traffic controller, which um -
NM: Where was that?
AB: Well actually I was flying from Stansted with Scottish and I became an air traffic controller and at that time one of the training stations was Stansted so fairly naturally they posted me to Stansted to do my initial training and from there I went to Gatwick. I didn’t get on very well with the Civil Aviation Authority. At the time it was, hmm, it was a government department then still, and I forget which government, I think, which department it was in then. Anyway, I did me training at Stansted and then I was posted down to Gatwick and did further training and you had to validate at the end of your second training station’s time and you passed the eagle eye of the deputy chief, act, in the, no I forget what, we went through department after we started out as the Ministry of Civil Aviation, then it became the Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation, then it became the Ministry of Transport and so it went on as governments changed they changed the nomenclature of the thing, anyway I didn’t get on very well and I was very nearly thrown out, but given another lease of life and sent to Blackbushe, which was, which is west London, sent to Blackbushe to have another go and I did that and that actually passed out from there and then I was posted back to Stansted but -
NM: You stayed at Stansted for the rest of your career?
AB: Pardon?
AB: Did you stay at Stansted for the rest of your career?
AB: Well, no, I didn’t actually, I was posted back, I went to Blackbushe and then from Blackbushe I was sent back to Stansted and I qualified at Stansted and I stayed there and then they brought in the requirement that you had to qualify on radar before they would grant you permanent status and so I was sent to London to qualify on the radar at, not actually at the airport itself, but at the Area Control Centre. Civil Aviation was becoming more and more organised. When I first joined it was very much do it yourself, where do you want to go to old boy, oh so and so and so and so, well put the ruler on the map, draw a line on it then go, but then the system of airways percolated over from the States and controlled airspace, where you couldn’t fly, or you could only fly, in certain areas, you know, by obeying strict control rules. Well anyway the first such centre in, was established in the UK in London and I was sent there to train up on the radar and oh, it was interesting and it became a matter of domesticity. I used to spend my afternoons off driving round the countryside looking at houses which were as far the other side of Heathrow as I was living at the time, so ,I one day somebody said, ‘oh,’ he said, ‘would you like to go back to Stansted?’ I said yes please. Somebody who’d been posted away from Stansted needed replacing so back I went to Stansted and I got the radar ticket at Heathrow and Stansted had everything except [emphasis] radar, they didn’t have any radar! But that didn’t matter, I’d got the rating so I didn’t have to worry about. I stayed at the Heath, at Stansted all the rest of my time and I enjoyed it. It, for a junior controller it was a rather satisfying job, you had the responsibility. I mean at somewhere like Gatwick or Heathrow, if an aeroplane came in and called up some kind of emergency you had to call the watch supervisor and if it was a bad enough emergency you had to call the, the Chief Air Traffic Controller of the whole kaboodle, but if it happened at Stansted - [pause]
NM: So if it happened at Stansted you -
AB: Pardon?
NM: If it happened at Stansted, an emergency, you had to take responsibility yourself did you?
AB: Oh yes, you were quite a junior, I remember we had, we were still a civil, a civil service department and the boss man was the Commandant and he used to go home at five o’clock and he didn’t want to know about the place, he expected the duty controller to look after things when they were gone. We had a KLM aeroplane come in to refuel on its way to New York and they poured the petrol in and it started leaking out and so it ended up that they had to defuel it to the point where it didn’t leak any more and then fly it off to Amsterdam where they could either change it for a serviceable aeroplane or fix the leak and so normally Stansted closed at eleven o’clock at night but the duty controller had the authority to extend the hours for three hours, you know, under various circumstances, so I extended this and it got to three hours and this crisis had developed and as I said to the point where they could defuel the plane and then fly it off to Amsterdam, so I said well, you’d better do that and it ended up that I shut the airfield and I was passing, as I was driving home, I was passing the fellows who were coming in to open up for the morning and the next day when I was on duty the commandant rang up, and he said, well he said, who authorised [cough] all this and I said well I did, and I explained the circumstances and that was it, you know. Nobody else was involved. So, and you know those sort of things happened, you know, you weren’t expected to call in higher authority, you were [emphasis] the higher authority on duty and you were expected to get on with it, make your decisions and justify it, but the blokes at Heathrow used to think we were a load of drongoes, you know. Well Heathrow, of course, like all these big airports, it’s an entirely different thing: it’s time is what matters at Heathrow and New York and all these other places, you know, you’ve got to, everything’s got to go on time, you’ve got to, you can’t afford to have fifteen seconds’ time wasted between aeroplanes, I mean that’s how you don’t get the movement rate. I mean Heathrow gets its movement rate by the fact that the planes are coming in like that, and they’re fifteen seconds apart and that’s it. It’s got to be fifteen seconds, not fourteen, not thirteen, fifteen and if you don’t make that they don’t want you.
NM: Andrew can I take you back to something you told me last time we met. You mentioned a man called George Sidebottom. Was he in Bomber Command?
AB: Oh yes, George. I was at school in Wolverhampton, Wolverhampton Grammar School, George and I were in the same class in Wolverhampton Grammar School.
NM: And did you say he ended up in Bomber Command?
AB: That’s right, yes, a few years later. He ended up as my, brother in law’s skipper in Bomber Command and he was in, I think 100 Squadron in Grimsby, I’m not quite sure which group that was in, whether that was in 3 Group I think, but I’m not sure, Grimsby. And my brother in law was his flight engineer and they’d had to abort two operations due to mechanical trouble but the CO wasn’t very receptive to that and told George in no uncertain terms that if he did it again he might very well find himself down the mines, so they were pressing along, they’d got some mechanical trouble, I don’t know what it was, I’ve forgotten, and anyway they were on their way to Leipzig and I think about the about the 13th of February 1944, something like that, be in the book and well it’ll be in, I’ve forgotten, the chap who has the record of all the Bomber Command casualties. Anyway they were chugging along and they were attacked and they were shot up and they were badly enough shot up that George said look chaps, he said, you know, we’re not going to make Leipzig, let alone get back to base, so he said I give you the option of baling out now, so they all decided to bale out and they all got away with it and apparently when the news got back to Grimsby that they’d all baled out there was a bit of a oh yes, hmmm, you know, hmmm, he’s done it twice, got away with it the third time, but my sister in law told me that, or told us, that she was reading some book and it was a reminiscences of a German night fighter pilot and he quoted this, he quoted this plane, this sortie you know, serial number, everything and you know, it was proof that -
[Other]: Are you taking a plate and a fork please?
AB: Oh thank you my darling.
NM: Lovely. Thank you very much.
AB: And it was proof that George hadn’t just done a “come on chaps let’s finish the war”.
[Other] [Unclear] on the table darling.
NM: I’ll just grab that if I may, thank you very much, lovely, thank you.
[Other]: What’s wrong, take another piece.
AB: And it got back to the squadron that – thank you darling - that it was a genuine one that they’d all baled out and Vic and, Vic and one of the other crews, they were picked up about two days later, but two of the crew got all the way to the, I mean they baled out near, oh, well near Potsdam, quite close to Berlin, but two of the crew got as far as the Dutch frontier and they pinched a couple of bicycles and they’d cycled across this bridge into Holland and for some reason or other they were sort of unsure, they were uncertain of where they were or something and they turned round and went back and they were challenged and apprehended by one of the German Volksturm, one of the German Home Guard [laugh] and Vic ended up in Heidekrug which was as far north west as you could get in Germany, it was right up in the tip top tip of east Germany and of course when the Germans, or rather when the Russians started advancing seriously across Poland and then into East Russia, the, East Germany, the Germans evacuated and Vic ended up on the Long March. That was rugged. Couldn’t look a turnip in the face after that.
NM: But he survived and was repatriated, yes?
AB: Mmm?
NM: He survived and was repatriated?
AB: Hmm.
NM: So he was a prisoner of war until the end of the war.
AB: Yes, eventually, the, [eating] they ended up in central Germany somewhere, I don’t know where.
NM: So his name was Vic, and what was his surname?
AB: Mendelski, Victor Mendelski, I think it was 100 Squadron and it was about, round about, round about February 13th I think, something like that. And as I say, it’ll be in Bill Chorley’s books. You’ve got those have you?
NM: We’ve got access to them.
AB: You’ll find it in there, something through that.
NM: Okay, just to finish with then, you’ve been going to the 100 Group reunions for a few years now.
AB: As I said, when Scottish packed up we all had to find other jobs and a number of them got jobs with the Civil Aviation Flying Unit which was based at Stansted and which was responsible for, it was responsible for the flight checking of all the radio aids, the navigation beacons, all the instrument landing systems and so on throughout the country and some of them abroad and they also did the flight checking of applicants for pilots’ licences and then for instrument ratings because one of the things that devolved from the airways system and all the control zone system that I mentioned earlier on, was that pilots had to be able to fly on instruments, had to have an instrument rating, and Stansted did all the examining for that. Well I got to know a few of them who’d been at Reserve Flying Schools and after I retired these chaps said, oh he said why don’t you join the Aircrew Association, which was an association which was open to [cough] all aircrew, everybody, cooks, stewards, the lot of them if they’d been flying, one of the chaps his wife had been an air steward in the RAF, she was a member, anyway, but I did join but I didn’t take to it, it was a, perhaps I shouldn’t say this but it was full of air gunners for one thing! And they used to meet at a pub in Saffron Walden which was not really convenient for me and perhaps I’m not the club-able type, a great cry of I’ll say rises to that, but so I dropped out, but during my membership I saw a notice in their magazine of a memorial stone being dedicated at Oulton, you know where I’d flown from, so I thought oh well I’ll go and go up to that so I went up to Aylesham and stayed in a B & B there and I happened to meet a fellow Squadron Leader, Richard Forder, a retired engineer who was researching the fate of one of the three Liberators that was lost from 223 Squadron, it was, oh I forget, it was captained by, he was either Flying Officer or Flying, or Flight Lieutenant Ayres, nicknamed Lou Ayres naturally, who, one of whose gunners Richard Forder had met when he was a small boy, I forget where he was, he was somewhere in the West Country, Shropshire, somewhere like that, and he’d met this chap, this RAF sergeant who’d given him some toy trains as a souvenir and this chap had been one of the casualties of this, [cough] of this flight and Richard was researching it and I’d been on the same detail. We’d done a spoof, a Window feint to Cassel. We’d come out from, we’d split off from the main force which had gone on to somewhere in the east, Leipzig or somewhere like that and we’d formed a force which flew on up to Cassel which some of the Halifaxes had bombed and we turned back from Cassel and gone home and on the way back from Cassel, Lou Ayres was shot down and we passed over his, over the wreckage of his flight and I was able to provide Richard with all sorts of information, you know, flight times and all the rest of it and proved the accuracy of my navigation, [laugh] reasonably. So that’s how I got involved with the 100 Group Association, kept it up ever since.
NM: You’ve got the next one next week I gather.
AB: We’re meeting the next, what’s the date today?
NM: 10th. May the 10th.
AB: Next weekend. Come along some time.
NM: Really looking forward to it.
AB: We congregate at the memorial stone which is on the eastern end of the old Oulton airfield. It’s about half past three, four o’clock, four o’clock something like that and say a few words, and I usually get asked to, well there’s two things, there’s the one: When you go home tell them of us and say for our todays, we gave, for your tomorrows we gave our todays. I can relate to that. And the other one is, the better known one, is the, what is it, it’s the, oh I’ve forgotten, it’s the [pause] no I’ve forgotten. But I, to which I can’t relate because it’s the one that says about the fellows, for their tomorrows we gave our todays or something like that and I’m thinking I bet they bloody well wish they’d still got their tomorrows.
NM: I think that’s a very good point on which to finish. So thank you very much for your time Andrew. Shall we finish the interview there?
AB: It’s [crockery noise].
NM: Shall we finish it there?
AB: I think so yes.
NM: I think that’s a good place.
AB: Yes. I never, you know it was, I stayed in aviation, as I say, I met all sorts of chaps when I was in the Reserve and I learnt not to shoot a line and then after the Reserve I went flying with Scottish and there were a few occasions where I was rather more frightened than I had been at any other time in my aviation career and because I was a married man by then, I’d got responsibilities and I was rather more aware of the fallibility of aeroplanes and of course, in something like the York, you used to have to fly through it not over it and the prospect of having to fly through the Monsoon was not something which you exactly looked forward to, I mean the rain was so heavy that you could barely, oh haven’t got my civil log book with me, you could barely see the inboard engines, let alone the outboard engines, but I mean it was real flying and you had to do it yourself.
NM: Very good.
AB: Mind you, there’s still real flying going on as that Russian aeroplane the other day. Not very funny.
NM: No indeed.
AB: Has there been anything more in the press about it?
NM: I haven’t seen anything since the accident itself, sorry. Andrew, can I just finish by saying thank you on behalf of the IBCC for giving us your story. Much appreciated. You’ve given us a lot of time.
AB: What’s the next step now? You get it -
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Andrew Barron. Three
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nigel Moore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-05-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarronAJK190510, PBarronAJK1901
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:56:35 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Andrew said that during leisure time the crew drank, sang silly songs but didn’t really socialise much. He recalled an occasion when the Germans sent in about 200 night fighters infiltrating the main force on its ways home. They shot down a B-17 as it came into land and all crew were killed. The German aircraft had passed Andrew’s one as it was waiting to land. He mentions four daylight operations: over a fairly short period the squadron did 38 operations. Andrew remembered on 1 January 1945 he was on operations and made some gross navigational error – he had been up late on New Years’ Eve and had drunk quite a bit. May 1945 ended operational flights: on the 26th Andrew did a trip with 223 Squadron from RAF Swannington, in a B-17. When the war ended, they were allowed to go on one of the Cooks tours around the Ruhr to see what damage had been done. Andrew was then posted to 102 Squadron at RAF Pocklington doing local flying with circuits and bumps. They did three flights in a Halifax disposing bombs into the sea. Following various postings, he was demobbed and trained for a civil license.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Yorkshire
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1945-01-01
1945-05
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Group
102 Squadron
157 Squadron
196 Squadron
223 Squadron
85 Squadron
B-17
B-24
bombing
C-47
Cook’s tour
demobilisation
Halifax
military living conditions
RAF Pocklington
RAF Swannington
shot down
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/670/10074/AAn00509-160424.2.mp3
fe81d86e5f5d2df68e20807b16ed3ea9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
An00509
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. Collection concerns a Flight Sergeant (1924 - 2018) who flew operations as a navigator and wished to remain anonymous. Contains an oral history interview as well as two biographical books and photographs. The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
This item has been redacted in order to protect the privacy of third parties.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
An00509
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GC: This is an interview being conducted on behalf of International Bomber Command
RW: Sorry?
GC: Centre Digital Archive. My name’s Gemma Clapton. The interviewee today is [omitted]. Also present is his wife [omitted]. This is taking place at Aldham in Essex near Colchester on the 25th of April 2016. I’d like to thank you very much for talking to us. Tell me, can you tell us a little bit about your life before the war please?
RW: Sorry. A little bit about what?
GC: Your life before the war.
RW: My life before the war [laughs] I was a school boy. I was in public school, boarding school in [unclear] Hertfordshire.
GC: What, what was it like at public school back then?
RW: What was it like? Well it was very rigid and very strict. We had rules but if we broke the rules, well we were punished. It was a simple as that and if we were caught. Most of us were very good at avoiding being caught when we were breaking the rules [laughs] but we did break the rules and we did get away with most of it but when we were caught we were either severely punished and restricted or we got canes. We got the, the, the cane but it hurt most [laughs]
GC: So you was born in 1924?
RW: Yes.
GC: You said your father was an army major in —
RW: In, in the British Army.
GC: Oh brilliant.
RW: The Royal Army Core, you know. He was a surgeon, he was an MD and a surgeon. In other words an MD and an FRCS, Federal of the Royal College of Surgeons. In other words he was fully qualified right across the board with medicine. He could handle anything. As an MD he had the, the same rights as any doctor anywhere and as a surgeon he had all the rights of surgeon, that were contained within the concept of surgery.
JW: And he served at the front in the First World War didn’t he darling?
RW: Sorry?
JW: He served at the front in the First World War?
RW: He served actually, he was three hundred metres behind the front trenches.
JW: Yes.
RW: So that he could carry out emergency operations on people who had just been hit by a bullet or shell a few minutes before they could rush in with a stretcher three hundred yards to the, the trenches where he had his surgery. That was in the World War One.
JW: But why was he then posted to Berlin?
RW: Because he’d had to speak German and French fluently.
JW: And what did he have to do in Berlin?
RW: What did he have to do?
JW: Yes.
RW: Well he was, first of all he was a qualified surgeon as a fellow of the Royal College of Surgery and there were so many severely wounded soldiers in the army that he spent most of his time operating on badly wounded soldiers.
JW: Yes, but I seem to remember you telling me also that he was doing research into war gases.
RW: Yes, he, at the same time as he was doing this job, after he’d finished doing that job he was asked to join a special group of doctors in the military services to do research on war gases and so he because he spoke fluent French as well as fluent English, obviously, he was working very closely with the allied French medical core.
JW: But based in Berlin. So that is why you were actually born in Berlin.
RW: That’s right.
JW: Weren’t you? Yes.
GC: Do you remember much about your life in Berlin?
RW: [laughs] I remember when I was born as if it was yesterday [laughs] to be honest I was four years old when I left Berlin, so my memory of Berlin has been carted around in a wheel chair, or baby carriage or being held by the hand while I was taken to a park. Took to play in the park and the most advanced weaponry I had was a scooter [laughs]
GC: Your, your dad was a surgeon?
RW: Yes.
GC: Did you think about following him?
RW: He was a fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons. He was an FRCS and an MD. He was fully qualified in all branches of medicine.
JW: And I seem to remember darling, you did tell me you had thought about following him and becoming a doctor yourself.
RW: Sorry?
JW: You had thought of following your doc— your father and becoming a doctor yourself.
RW: Well I did but then World War Two interfered with that.
JW: Yes.
RW: So I took the quick route. To do my bit in the war by volunteering to, to fly as a pilot for the RAF instead.
GC: So tell us about when you decided to join up for World War Two.
RW: Well I decided to sign up the day France fell, because I was in France when war broke out and I went — my first school was in France in Paris. I, I didn’t’ got to school until I was six. And from the age of six till the age of ten I thought I was a frog. I only spoke French and I only went to a French school.
GC: Um.
JW: Many of your relatives were in France weren’t they? Your grandmother?
RW: Oh my grandmother was —
JW: Yes.
RW: My grandmother married the managing director of the, err [pause]
JW: The Zurich wasn’t it?
RW: The Zurich Insurance Company.
GC: So what again, what, you said you joined up when France fell. Why the RAF?
RW: Sorry?
GC: Why the RAF?
RW: Because I, I wasn’t very keen, I was walking about in mud in the trenches like they did in World War One, this had four years in trenches which wasn’t exactly much fun so I decided to create my own fun and I volunteered to be a fighter pilot. But they failed me on my eye sight as a fighter pilot because I couldn’t land a fighter plane well enough to be trusted with it in the dark at night time. And of course a lot of our fighting was done at night time against the Luftwaffe.
JW: And I think darling you said that you ruled out the navy as a possibility because you were inclined to be seasick weren’t you?
RW: Yes, I, I wasn’t a good sailor I am now but I wasn’t then. A very good sailor and so one way or the other I had to get into the air. So when I was failed as a pilot because I landed, instead of landing from one foot to eighteen inches above the ground I would land twenty feet above the ground [laughs] which was a bit of a big drop. You know, twenty feet was like [unclear] so it was quite a big drop. So I couldn’t judge because at that point the altimeter wasn’t very reliable so you couldn’t, you couldn’t rely on the altimeter you had to rely on your own eye sight so that, that’s why, so they decided I, I, I was too good an airman to throw away but I had to do something other than flying a plane itself. So they said it looks as though you good enough to be a navigator but not got lost so I said try me and so they did and they said yes you’ll make a good navigator so we’ll put you through the course. So that’s what they did. I ended up being a navigator on Wellingtons and then on Lancasters.
GC: Can you tell us a little bit about training to be a navigator. What would they go through with you?
RW: Training to be a navigator [laughs] well it was very simple. To try to be a navigator you had to understand a) map reading, b) the meaning of airspeed on a, on a mobile, like an aircraft and so understand the importance of maintaining the right altitude and the right temperature. When you understood all these things they would then let, let you loose with a trained crew and you would then have to fly a, a bomber under wartime conditions over enemy territory and if you survived that then you became a bomber navigator which is what I became.
GC: Oh. So you, you’ve trained to be navigator. Explain about picking a crew or being picked by a crew?
RW: Sorry?
GC: Explain about being picked by a crew. How they picked you for a crew?
RW: Being flexed?
GC: Picked.
JW: How were you selected?
RW: You mean chosen?
GC: Yes, sorry.
RW: Oh. How come?
GC: How did they select you?
RW: Well, err [laughs] you, whilst you were picked as an aircrew they then tell you you’re gonna be a pilot, you’re gonna be a navigator, you’re gonna be this or your gonna be that. And what they did they selected you for aircrew and then we, when you, you always flew the same for six months of training for flying duties and then you were segregated into those who had more time for flying for taking off and landing. Those who had more talent for surviving at night and bringing the aircraft home safely as navigators and air gunners or bomb aimers whatever, or flight engineers. You were selected for the thing you were best trained for. So I was best trained to be a member of the, what you might call the inner circle. They were the inner circle were two pilots and, err, a navigator or bomb aimer but they were, without those four people you were no good as a bomber crew and then in addition we had flight engineers, and air gunners and bomb aimers and all that sort of thing. So we, we, normally there were seven of us and the two most important people were the pilot and the navigator obviously, because one without the other in no bloody good [laughs] you have to be able to take off and get to where you’re supposed to be and back again you see. So that’s what I did, I became a navigator. I could fly but I couldn’t land the bomber at night accurately enough to be trusted with a four engine, four Rolls Royce engines and a big heavy bomber about forty tons of bomber so they said what we’ll do because of your eyesight isn’t good enough to land safely at night we’ll have to make you a navigator instead cause you then don’t actually have to land the aircraft you only have to get the aircraft back over the airfield and then the pilot takes over once we’re over the airfield and he has to worry about the landing so that’s what happened so I became a navigator. And my job was to get us off the ground to the target safely and back and back to our own airfield so that we, the rest of the crew could take over and land the aircraft safely at our own home base. That’s in a nutshell what we did.
GC: Can you, can you remember any of your crew or crews?
RW: [laughs] oh god. Well the trouble is with the crews we didn’t go by surnames we went by, you know, sort of nicknames like Taffy or sort of a Johnny.
JW: But was it Pat darling?
RW: Sorry?
JW: Did you tell me Pat Howlett was a pilot?
RW: Sorry?
JW: Pat, Pat Howlett was that the name of your pilot at one time? Pat?
RW: Cat?
JW: No Pat.
RW: Pack?
JW: Pat Howlett. Was that the name of your pilot?
RW: How, how do you spell that?
JW: P, A, T, Pat.
RW: P, A, T?
JW: Yes Pat.
RW: Pat?
JW: Yes.
RW: Well that’s that was his nickname.
JW: Right, right.
RW: His real name was Patrick I think.
JW: Yes sure.
RW: But we all called him Pat.
JW: Yes.
GC: But were they, were they all English or were they from —
RW: No we had some, we had a New Zealander. We had a, a, I think it was a Dutchman and we had —
JW: What about Taffy? What nationality was Taffy?
RW: Taffy?
JW: Yes.
RW: Oh Taffy was a — died in the world [unclear]
JW: He was.
RW: But most of us were British subjects. But we came from all over the empire. We could have a navigator from New Zealand, a bomb aimer from Australia, a pilot from Leigh-on-Sea. Oh what ever, you know. But overall we all had to speak and understand English fluently that was the main thing. As long as you could understand and speak English fluently you were all ok. So we were then sent abroad we had to cross the Atlantic twice during the height of the Nuremburg war where one in two, one in three of our ships were being sunk by the Luftwaffe or by the U boats so I was, we were lucky because one in two were sunk at sea before they ever got back fully trained.
GC: Um. So you went across to Canada?
RW: I went across to America and then from America I was posted to Canada.
GC: What was Canada like?
RW: Wonderful. There were no bombs being dropped at Canada but we were completely in a peaceful country in Canada during the war because the [unclear] was hard to reach for the Luftwaffe they couldn’t reach us because they didn’t have the aircraft with the range they needed to be able to bomb us in Canada, so that was very lucky. And if by chance one foolish German pilot decided to risk everything to bomb Ottawa or Montreal or Toronto he never got there because as soon as he crossed the line [laughs] he was shot down by dozens of us waiting for him.
GC: So you’ve done, you’ve been — how long were you in Canada for?
RW: To do our training?
GC: Yes.
RW: Well just under a year and the reason for that was there were a big demand for pilots and navigators and so on and they couldn’t get us all through as quickly as they wanted to because they didn’t have the training facilities to get the numbers out as fast they needed them so they had to send some of us to Canada for training some of us through Alaska some of us to Florida some of us to Mexico I think it was. So, and some of us to New Zealand and some of us to Australia. So the training programme was very widely spread so I started out in England and then went out on to Canada and then to America and then back to England and then I finally started to fly on the wartime conditions once I had been posted back to England to a bomber squadron you see.
GC: Where was you first — when you came back to England, where were you first posted?
RW: When I first came back to England?
GC: Yes.
RW: Oh, don’t forget, they, they, they didn’t give us the names of towns or villages because we weren’t supposed to know where we were but we obviously had to find out in due course. But we in, in our case we had a huge number of training grounds, airfields in and around the London area because of course the main target for the Luftwaffe was always London wasn’t it?
GC: Um.
RW: And of course our, also our ports like Liverpool, South Hampton, things like that we had to defend those places as well so we were trained to resist the German bombers and to do our own thing to defend ourselves and also to bring up a squadrons of our own bombers that would give back to the Germans what they gave to us.
JW: Can I just interrupt for a minute to answer Gemma’s question about where you were posted because I’ve just looked up in your book darling.
RW: Oh.
JW: And when you came back to this country after training in Canada, firstly you had some leave didn’t you so you went to your family?
RW: That right.
JW: But after that you were posted to AFU, Advanced Flying Unit.
RW: That’s right.
JW: Located near Wolverhampton.
RW: That is correct.
JW: And it went by you see the unlikely name of Halfpenny Green [laughs]
RW: Yes, that’s right. Good thing I wrote, I wrote it all down.
JW: And you were flying Avro Ansons weren’t you initially?
RW: Avro Ansons is correct. Yes. Twin engines. They were designed as front line twin engine bombers but of course by the time the war had been on for about a year these Avro Ansons which had been designed in the early thirties were completely outdated, too slow and didn’t carry enough bomb load so they were converted to training programmes only and not, they were no longer were used as bombers because they were too vulnerable to German fighters so we, we did all our training on actual bombing, so called bombing raids on the, the Avro Ansons and luckily we survived but half the Avro Ansons that I ever flew never finished the war they were shot down long before the end.
GC: Can you remember your first operation over Europe.
RW: Over Europe.
GC: Over Europe.
RW: I suppose I can, if I think about it. You see operations were quite different in every respect from flying and learning to fly over your own friendly territory so by the time we were being sent with the real bombs to bomb targets on the continent this was the real war, it was a completely different thing from what we’d actually been trained to do [laughs] because what we’d been trained to do was do the actual bombing but not to do anything beyond defending ourselves but when, when we were actually on raids things suddenly happened in front of you which you hadn’t predicted or thought would happen, you know. You’d be flying with your wing man on the starboard side and your wing man on your port side and suddenly we’d find ourselves surrounded by everyone or another, Messerschmitt, night fighters, Charlie on the right would disappear in one big explosion and the other one would disappear in flames over there somewhere and you’d be left all by yourself. That was what, what happened all the time or what could happen all the time. Luckily I survived all of that and I was one of these people who the almighty decided to spare simply because half, fifty percent of bomber command were killed in action. One in two, people like me were killed. I survived the whole, all of the war and never even got a scratch, you know. And I, I got shot up, you know, I mean our aeroplane got shot up, big chunks of our aeroplane landed on navigators lap and things like that but basically the, the Wellingtons and the Lancaster that I flew in were very solidly built aircraft and they held together very well. They didn’t fall apart so obviously that helped us to get home again even if we couldn’t reach our own airfield. As soon as we crossed the line, the coast line and knew we were over friendly territory we’d bail out so we would land safely on our own home territory whilst the aircraft would be headed out to sea where it could crash into the sea without doing any harm to anybody. But, because there were certain things you could do with an aircraft even though it was badly shot up but there were certain things you could not do because it would be silly to crash to land and probably blow up because you couldn’t switch off all the petrol and, and all the engines if you were, were learning to, landing in an emergency we learnt all of that and of course all of that made you very vulnerable as well because you might be streaming petrol after the starboard engine tracers and so all the enemy fighter had to do was to put one, one bullet into that particularly vulnerable engine tank and the whole thing would go vroom and blow up.
GC: So was you actually injured at anytime?
RW: Well it depends what you mean by injured [laughs] if you mean was a I sent to hospital for any length of time to recover from my injuries the answer is no. But if I, if you mean injuries being injuries well I had all kinds of fragments that were flying about from fuselage when the Luftwaffe were attacking us with all their guns. We’d have a big chunks of metal, about this big, flying about inside the aircraft which could do you a lot of damage if they hit you. Especially if they hit you in the face. Luckily I didn’t get any injuries like that but I did get very close to losing an eye or having half my face blown off because I could hear the shell fragments come shoo straight past my cheek and land in, on the aircraft, you know, so —
JW: And there was an occasion darling wasn’t there when your boots caught fire?
RW: Yes [laughs] I had one raid where I was over, I think I was over, over either the Isle of Man or one such island which belonged to us officially and I was flying over that particular part of the territory when I was attacked, our, our aircraft was attacked and we had big chunks of our aircraft blown away and suddenly to my left, on the port side, I was next to where the main, the main wing the main spar joined the fuselage, suddenly I saw where there should have been a piece of solid metal to make sure the wing stayed up there was a great big hole about this big. Right there where the wing had joined the fuselage which meant to me at any moment the other, the two engines that we still had running on the port side, because we had four engines on the Lanc, could drop off and in which case I’d have to try and get out of the aircraft pretty quickly if I wanted to survive. So that was quite a tricky situation.
JW: But a fragment arrived, arrived near to your feet didn’t it darling?
RW: That’s right, yes.
JW: And created a fire?
RW: Created what?
JW: A fire?
RW: Yes that’s right.
JW: So your boots were catching fire.
RW: Yes my boots were on fire and I didn’t even realise it until my feet got so hot and I saw this red glowing ambers all round my boots and it turned out that my, the, the soles had been set on fire by the, oh, incendiary bullets which were coming from the fighters, the enemy fighters and several of these incendiary bullets, similar to the ones we use on them, you know, so we knew what damage they could do, set fire to our fuselage and as I say there were flames underneath my navigators table. So you know I could’ve been dead that same night, luckily the bomb aimer came along with enough fire hose left to put the fire out underneath my table so instead of that spreading right across the fuselage we were able to extinguish it at the source. But we were, these were things you took in your stride. You didn’t worry about them if you worried about them whether they happened to you but the rest of the time you got on with the job because you didn’t have time to worry [laughs] about what could happen. You had to concern yourself with what did happen.
GC: You also said earlier about bailing out. When did you bail out? Can you remember?
RW: Bail out?
GC: Yes.
RW: When? Well we, we had to do all kinds of bailing out. We had the, the real thing when one of our aircraft was on fire and there was no way that we were going to be able to extinguish the flames before they reached the fuel tanks so the skipper said, announced that we had to bail out. Which is what we did, but that was the only time I can remember where we actually were in real danger of blowing up but we had chunks of this thing blowing off our tail or wings or you know because shrapnel which was exploding all the way around you has a very powerful way of damaging your aircraft because a, a, a chunk of red hot metal this big hitting the tip of your wing could take the whole top of the wing off, in which case you go into a spiral and find yourself heading for the ground. So these things happen all the time and we were taught how to overcome them and also taught at which point we should abandon the aircraft if it was all beyond hope. Luckily although we had big chunks taken off every aeroplane I ever flew through enemy territory, none of them were fatal or caused us to blow up but we got very, very close to it. We, we had one, one shell which blew a hole about this big only about two inches away from the main fuel tank, you know. So it’s the luck of the draw.
GC: Can you remember any of your ops over Europe though?
RW: There were about — No you ask any navigator and I’m sure they’ll give you a similar, similar answer because all ops [background talking] were dangerous, right. Secondly you knew, you knew that there would be aerial defences of anti aircraft aimed at you with a view to shooting you down, right. You also knew that any fighter at night was definitely recognised whether it was a twin engine British night fighter or a twin engine German night fighter and so on. So you had to be on the defensive every minute that you were flying at night over enemy territory. So there were all kinds of things that you had to be conscious but you couldn’t find the time to worry about it because if you did that you would never get home you’d be lost because you, your pilot would force through or alter course so many times. I would give him a course to fly, right and within minute we would be attacked by a night fighter or another and we had to do this and navigate all through the sky to get away from him and that’s how we don’t bother with that. We were probably about seventy miles away from where we started getting away and you know you had to start all over again to establish where you were and start your job as navigator all the way back to where you left off and it was very difficult to do that.
JW: I seem to remember darling you saying to me that you never had time to feel afraid because you were working none stop.
RW: Absolutely, absolutely correct. If you stopped to worry you were a gonna, you know.
JW: And your ops I seem to remember you told me you were involved in things like windows.
RW: That right, windows is some of our a form of plastic fragments, lots of little bits which we used to drop over enemy territory as we approached the enemy defences we would drop this window that we had which would completely upset the radar of the enemy so it was quite a useful thing to have. They did the same to us.
JW: Were you involved in mines as well? Laying mines as well at all, or not?
RW: Mines?
JW: Yes.
RW: We had a few, very few of them but we had a few mine [unclear] traps especially up in, in Scandinavia and they approached us to Scandinavia and also they approached us to Holland and Belgium. We dropped a lot of mines and things like that.
JW: I seem to remember you telling me also you were involved in diversionary raids.
RW: Oh yes. That was another standard practice. In order to fool the enemy we would head off in the direction of a very obvious target and then at the last minute we would be told to alter course and to starboard or port and then go somewhere completely different, by which time the enemy defences were completely put off because they didn’t know where you were going you know. Things like that.
JW: But the main task force then had a clear run to their intended destination and target didn’t they?
RW: Well yes.
JW: Because you diverted the enemy.
RW: Yes that’s right.
JW: Away from that target.
GC: Can you remember anywhere you did bomb?
RW: Can I what?
GC: Can you remember anywhere that you did actually bomb?
RW: Actually bomb? Oh gosh [bleep] territory things like that. So it would be very awkward sometimes for us to send to the Germans to attack safely the enemy planes over your territory because you can never be one hundred percent sure that the plane you hit was actually one of the enemies. Rather sad.
GC: Yes.
RW: Especially at night when you can’t see the markings.
GC: So did you get scared?
RW: Did I get scared?
GC: Yes.
RW: That’s a difficult question that. I think you, you could get scared on the way there as you realise what it was that you were going to face. But the moment you were in action you forgot about being scared, wondering what to do was to make sure that you controlled your aircraft sufficiently to get you home again and that you took all the evasive action you could to avoid being hit and that was your main aim at that point. And also to drop your bombs before you and your aircraft blew up because somebody had put some shells into your bombs. So it was very much a hit and miss sort of career. Once you were airborne you could be shot down just as easily by a mistaken air gunner on your side or mistaken air gunner on the French side or whatever. It was very difficult at night time with the sky lit up with searchlights doing this and explosive bombers or anti aircraft going boom boom all over the place to tell whether you were among friends or enemy, you know. Very hard.
GC: So how do you feel about it now? Seventy years later.
RW: Well, you have to bear in mind that now the planes and weaponry used are quite different. In those days we had, we were cruising at about a hundred and forty miles an hour in the air today a bomber would be cruising at five hundred and fifty, six hundred miles an hour, much harder to bring down and attack because of the differential in speed. Because assuming that you, that you could zero in on the end of the aircraft your best bet these days would be to send up the fighters that had the speed, and the range to reach and attack and shoot down these particular aircraft because anti aircraft now is so much more sophisticated than it was during the war but by the same token it’s very hard when anything is moving so fast in the sky. Very hard to determine which is the enemy and which is the friendly one. You understand? And often we, we shoot down planes or missiles that we shouldn’t have shot down because as I say were ours but these things happen in war and there’s not much you can do about it.
GC: So what did you do once the war was over?
RW: Said “thank God” [laughs] you know. We survived. That’s the important thing we could go out and have a few pints and five or six, seven pints of beer and get slowly sloshed to celebrate the fact that we were still, were alive and still standing on our feet. Mind you after seven pints of beer you might easily drop dead anyway [laughs].
GC: Well I think that can conclude our interview. I would like to say thank you very much to Ron, thank you very much to Jill.
JW: It’s a pleasure.
GC: And it’s been an honour and a pleasure.
RW: Oh dear, oh dear, I didn’t realise that this was all, I’d forgotten all about you were supposed to be writing it all down or taking notes, but if, if you want me to elaborate on anyone particular point which we could do because of the way I structured the whole interview just, just ask me the question and I’ll see if I can answer.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with an anonymous interviewee (An00509)
Creator
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Gemma Clapton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-24
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAn00509-160424
Format
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00:43:08 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
The interviewee was born in Berlin in 1924, his father being a British Army surgeon who was posted there to treat badly wounded soldiers. He went to school in France then attended boarding school in Hertfordshire. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force to become a fighter pilot but failed the medical on eyesight. Offered to be a navigator, he was sent for training in the United States and Canada. Upon returning to England he was posted to RAF Halfpenny Green advanced flying unit, and then to RAF Cosford. He trained in Ansons, then crewed up with Pilot Patrick Howlett and ended up being a navigator on Wellingtons and Lancasters carrying out operations to the Netherlands and Belgium. He discusses flying training, anti-aircraft fire, military life and ethos, aircraft damage, aircraft identification, bombing techniques, diversionary operations, using Window, mine laying, dropping incendiaries and their effects.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Staffordshire
France
Netherlands
Belgium
Germany
Germany--Berlin
United States
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crewing up
incendiary device
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
mine laying
navigator
RAF Cosford
RAF Halfpenny Green
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/315/3472/APayneAJ150811.2.mp3
ee6769cc020c59ef42f4867ae1c03636
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Alan
Alan John Payne
Alan J Payne
Alan Payne
A J Payne
A Payne
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Alan John Payne DFC (1315369 and 173299 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He completed 18 operations as a bomb aimer with 630 Squadron.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Payne, AJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and I’m conducting an interview with Alan Payne in Wendover, Buckinghamshire along with his grandson, Aaron Payne. And we’re going to talk about his life and keep the tape running until we need to have a break. So, Alan could I ask you to talk about your life from the earliest days please and then your childhood and how you came to join the RAF and then your experiences. And then after the RAF what you did. So over to you —
AP: Well, I was born here in Wendover. My father was a coal merchant. He had his own business. He even had, he even had his own coal trucks. Coal trucks. And I attended a local junior school until I passed to go to the Wycombe Technical Institute where I did technical studies. I had quite a happy childhood. I had one brother who unfortunately now has dementia. He’s younger than me but he does suffer with dementia. But then as I say, I had a childhood in Wendover. Local school. Then went to High Wycombe Technical College. The war was on then. I didn’t want to join the army or the navy so I volunteered for the Royal Air Force. I was seventeen when I volunteered. So, volunteering for the air force meant I was safe from being recruited in to the army which I did not want. And I had about a year to wait until I was called up and I got notice to report to Lord’s Cricket Ground in London. That was the recruiting place. Lord’s Cricket Ground. Just basic stuff there. Lots of inoculations. We were put up at Abbey Wood and then from there we were sent out to Torquay first of all for basic training. Drill. Law. This type of thing. Then from there I went to Brighton for a time. There again it was basic training. They were, they housed us in the hotels along the front. One thing I do remember about that time was Richard Tauber who was appearing in the, in The Pier Concert Hall and I saw him and thought what a wonderful chap he was. He was an Austrian Jew of course and he got out of Germany before the trouble started. But that’s one thing I do remember about that time there. This is all basic stuff.
[pause]
CB: So, after Brighton what did you do?
AP: After Brighton.
CB: What did you do in Brighton?
AP: Well, after Brighton — I did mention Torquay didn’t I?
CB: Yes.
AP: And then Brighton. Then from Brighton we were sent, we were sent out to South Africa. I was quite lucky really because I was sent to train with the South African Air Force and we were — we had to transport up to Liverpool. Got on a boat called the Volendam. A Dutch boat. The Volendam. And we departed for South Africa in convoy and that journey took, I think, four or five weeks. We stopped at Freetown on the way to refuel and then into Durban. And from — Durban was just a holding centre. And then from Durban we were posted to East London. East London. Where we started our training in flying and I hadn’t really flown before then. But we started flying then on Avro Ansons and that was basic navigation. And at Queenstown — that was navigation and then, and then from there we were posted to the gunnery school where we did bomb aiming and air gunnery. Pause it just a minute Chris while I just make reference?
CB: Ok. So, your logbook will remind you.
AP: Port Alfred.
CB: Yeah.
AP: It was Port Alfred where we went to for gunnery.
CB: Ok.
AP: A very nice little seaside town not far from Queenstown. Went to Port Alfred. There we were on Airspeed Oxfords. And then whilst there for [pause] to get us used to the night time flying we were sent to a little place called Aliwal North. And the runways there were lit by flares. So there was no lighting there. Just these flares that we had to land on but that gave us our basic training for night flying. And it was at Port Alfred that we passed out and had a, we had a passing out parade in Queenstown. We had a very good do there and I do have the, a copy of the menu.
[pause]
So, having, having finished our training we, we were sent down to Cape Town and we sailed back from Cape Town in the old Queen Mary with no escort at all because she relied on speed to get us through. I think she did about thirty three, thirty five knots. So we sailed back in good time and on the way back too we were taking a whole load of Italian prisoners of war and we escorted them back to — Liverpool that we went in to. And then to finish our training I was posted to Dumfries in Scotland where we did basic training. Bombing, map reading, this type of thing. And from Dumfries we were sent to a holding station at Harrogate. And I always remember the CO there was Leslie Ames, the old Kent cricketer. He was the CO at this hotel. Had a very cushy job really, in the war, didn’t he? But we were there for a few weeks and then we were posted to Turweston — an Operational Training Unit where we were on Wellington bombers. And it was at Turweston and this, and this other station, Silverstone that we were crewed up. And it was rather strange — we were all let loose in a big hangar and we had to sort of had to find our pilot and navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator. We just got together and sorted ourselves out. That was the way it went in those days. I was lucky because my pilot, Geoff Probert, was an ex-guardsman. We called him grandfather because he was, he was thirty odd. He’d volunteered as a pilot and we were all in our early twenties so he looked after us really. And he was a jolly good captain. Anyway, we did our OTU training and we were all, we were all crewed up and ready to go and at Silverstone we also did some cross-country stuff. And then the next move was to Winthorpe. A Conversion Unit. And we converted then to Lancasters and that’s when the training really started. And I was there in October, November ‘43. And then at the end of November we were posted to East Kirkby. That was, that was the operational station. We were posted to 630 Squadron which was a wing of 57 Squadron. I always remember that part of my service well really because it was just like a builder’s site. There was mud everywhere. There was just basic, basic accommodation in Nissen huts. A central stove. Everything was running with condensation. The clothes were damp. Everything was damp. And it was a very cold winter then. In fact, we did our first op on the 2nd of December to Berlin. And everything was centred on getting the aircraft operational. The fact of our comfort didn’t really enter into things but we managed and, but as I say it was pretty rough at that time. There was no basic comforts. There was no basic comforts at all and the weather was so cold too. We started off with six trips to Berlin and the weather was so bad we hardly saw the target at all. We were bombing on Wanganui flares through cloud cover. During that time, we did Berlin, Stettin, Brunswick, Berlin, Magdeburg. As I say, six Berlin trips. But, at the same time although the weather was bad we did find time to get out to the Red Lion at Revesby which was our local pub. And we had a bit of relief there.
[pause]
The worst trip I had really was the one to Nuremberg. That was at the end of March. It was March 30th. We were attacked then by an ME109 but luckily, he missed us but he did fly pretty close. But we were lucky really. As I said we had some near squeaks. And one of the things that did, that I always found amazing was the fact that you’d be flying along in the dark and all of a sudden you got over the target and there were planes everywhere. And we had two, we had two narrow go’s where we nearly collided with another Lancaster. But as I say we were very lucky in many respects. Another op we did was the one to Mailly-le-Camp. That was, that was a military camp and that was a bit, that was being marked by Group Captain Cheshire. And everything went wrong that night. Everything was late. We had to circle and circle until we could get in to bomb on the flares that had been set by Cheshire. And then following on then, on the run up to D-Day we were more or less doing trips on marshalling yards, bridges, anything that would hamper the movement of the Germans. When D-Day approached [pause] when we finished our tour, just before D-Day in fact, although our last trip, the end of March 1944 was mine laying in Kiel Bay. And there we were hit by a — attacked and hit by a JU88. We caught fire but luckily the fire, for some good reason went out. We were jolly lucky then. But as I say we’d done twenty nine trips then and the CO came to us. He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You’ve had it now. You can finish.’ But on the social side there I did know a young WAAF girl called Pat who more or less adopted the crew. No. We adopted her. And she took a liking to me and we spent a lot of time together. I’ve got a little picture of her here. We used to go cycling together and went to the pub at Revesby. I got very fond of Pat but of course when it came to [unclear] to go to see her. I don’t know whether he has or not. As I say by the end, by the time we’d finished, the end of May, the weather was, the weather was better but it had been a pretty dreadful winter. Anyway, at the end of our tour we all broke up and we all went our different ways. First of all, I went out to Moreton Valence where we were doing instructing and doing compass swings and basic stuff. And from there to Llandwrog in North Wales. And then I was quite lucky then because we were sort of messing about doing not much in particular and then a posting came through. They wanted, they wanted a navigator to go out to Palestine. So, I was, in the first instance I was sent out to Saltby, a Conversion Unit. And then to Matching and I crewed-up then with a guy called Flying Officer Nichols. And we were, as I say on Halifaxes which was a better aircraft for transport work than the Lancaster. The Lanc had a very narrow fuselage whereas with a Halifax you could get two lines of chaps down either side of the aircraft. And we did container dropping, glider towing. Anything which would help the 6th Airborne. We were attached to the 6th Airborne Division then and we went out with them to Palestine which, in 1946, wasn’t very healthy really. Because the Irgum Zvai Leumi were — and Begin, they weren’t very happy with us then. They blew up the King David Hotel. They shot two of our sergeants in [unclear]. You may remember that. We always had to look at, mind our backs because the — at that time, I shouldn’t say this but the Jewish weren’t very friendly towards us. And we used to go out to, they used to, they were bringing their migrants in by boat and part of our duty was to fly over the Med to report boats coming in. At the same time we did exercises down to Bagdad with the Airborne division. We did quite a bit of flying up through, up through Italy and we helped then to bring some of the migrants back to Palestine. It was quite an interesting time really although we had to watch what we were doing. But as I say we used to fly to Bagdad.
CB: What were you doing when you flew to Bagdad? What was the main reason for that?
AP: It was an exercise for the 6th Airborne Division.
CB: So, you were moving troops.
AP: It was a very good camp at Bagdad actually. They had a, they had a very nice camp outside and we went there two or three times. There were lakes there and the flying boats used to come in there, you know. I quite enjoyed the time out there in a way had it not been for the fact that we were liable to be sort of potted at. We also went down to Khartoum which was one of the hottest places I’ve ever known. In fact, it was so hot there that we couldn’t run the engines up. We had to be towed to the end of the runway, start the engines and take off so they did not overheat, you see. That again was an exercise with the Airborne division and they would do, they would do parachute drops. That type of thing.
[pause]
AP: We did quite a few trips up too, from Aqir airbase in Palestine. We did quite a few trips up to Udine. Udine. By stopping at Malta to refuel and then flying up to the coast of Italy in to Udine. And there again, it was a case of exercising with the 6th Airborne Division.
CB: So, you weren’t doing any doing bombing. You were —
AP: Oh no. No bombing at all. No. It was all —
CB: Not even practice. It was moving people.
AP: Moving people about. Troops. Migrants. And then, come the end of August it was time for me to be demobbed and that’s the only time I’ve flown in a Dakota. I was flown down to Cairo with some other guys. Then we were flown back by Dakota to London via Malta into Heathrow. And Heathrow then, of course, was just a series of huts. There was nothing like there is today. But that’s the only time I’ve flown in a Dakota. Although, a few weeks ago, when I was up at East Kirkby I sat down at a bench with a colleague of mine. Got chatting. And the guy I spoke to owned the Dakota at East Kirkby. Maybe you know him. Do you know him?
CB: I don’t. No.
AP: Well, anyway, he happened to be there and it was his aircraft and we chatted away and he’s very fond of the Dakota. But that more or less tied up my time in, with the Royal Air Force and I didn’t know quite what to do for a time. But I had always wanted to go into building so I applied to become an architect and I was lucky enough to be accepted at the School of Architecture at Oxford. I had to wait a few months before there was a vacancy and our course at that time only consisted of thirty people. There were two girls and the rest of us were men and half of them were ex-service people. In fact Oxford in those days was full of ex-servicemen and we had to compete with the youngsters. But after five years I passed. That must have been in [pause] ’46 ’47 I went to Oxford. It must have been the early ‘50s. And in those days jobs were hard to find and luckily I had some contact in North Wales and I was found a position there to start my architectural career. And from there things just moved on. Do you want — is that?
CB: Married?
AP: Pardon?
CB: When you got married.
AP: Oh yeah. Well, back in, back at the end of the war.
CB: Ok.
AP: Sorry. I left that out.
CB: How did you come to meet your wife?
AP: Oh, at the ‘drome in Llandwrog in North Wales.
CB: That was an OTU was it? Training place.
AP: Yeah. It wasn’t an OTU. No. It was a training place. Actually, I was there on — it would be — not D-Day. VE day. VE day in Caernarfon and the whole town turned out. Do you know Caernarfon? Very nice little town.
CB: Yeah.
AP: We went into Carnarvon and I’d met Gwen then and we went out together and celebrated around the castle.
CB: Yeah.
AP: And that was before, before I went to Oxford of course.
CB: So were you able to earn money while you were at Oxford?
AP: Well, I’ll say one thing for the Labour government then they paid for our fees and gave us a living allowance. So that was one, that was one credit that we had, we had to bear. Not bear. To put up with.
CB: And Gwen was working as well.
AP: She was. Yes. Yes, she was working for a time. Then the children came along and that was it.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Housewives didn’t work in those days did they?
CB: They didn’t.
AP: They stayed home and stayed put.
CB: No. No. Going back to your early days. How were you actually selected first of all? How were you selected for aircrew because you might have done a ground job? So at what point —
AP: Well I remember going to Oxford. There was a recruiting centre there and I’d put down for, I’d passed as pilot, navigator, bomb aimer.
CB: Yeah.
AP: That was the categories. I passed for that and I had a medical at the same time there. That was in Oxford back in, when I was only seventeen. And then they selected you for aircrew training. Everybody wanted to be a pilot of course but it was a matter of luck when you, when the time came. If they wanted navigators you were a navigator. You know. Or pilot. As things turned out it’s just as well I did go as a navigator I suppose.
CB: In what way?
AP: Well, I survived.
CB: Right. Going then on to the training in South Africa. You wore the brevet of an observer. So how was the course structured and how did you have that brevet rather than a navigator brevet?
AP: We were the last course to do the observer. We were the last people to do the observer course. And after that it became NavB and bomb aimers. But we did the whole lot. We did the three. Bomb aiming, navigation, air gunnery. We did the lot. After that the NavB’s just did navigation.
Yeah.
But for that reason, when we got back to the UK the Lancs were coming in. They wanted bomb aimers. And having done the observer course we were, of course, selected to take on that job you see.
CB: But you did navigation. Oh you didn’t.
AP: I didn’t — well I did map reading of course in Bomber Command.
CB: Yeah. Right.
AP: Which was quite important in the run up to D-day because a lot of our targets then were marshalling yards, bridges, that type of thing and we had to do map reading and pin point bombing.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Because we daren’t drop the bombs on the French domestic.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Sites.
CB: Which was the problem with that Cheshire raid. Identifying the military camp which was close to a village.
AP: Mailly-le-Camp. Yeah. That was quite a tricky raid that was. In fact, that picture you’ve seen was done a day or two before or a day or two after.
CB: So, what was, what actually caused the holdup and why were so many planes circling? Waiting.
AP: There was a hold up. I don’t know. I don’t know what happened. We never did find out but everything — we were late getting there. I mean, we got there too early or Cheshire was too — he was in a Mosquito and he went in after we did and marked the target. But it was a very successful raid. Although we did lose quite a few aircraft in collisions. We had to circle around waiting for these markers to go down.
CB: Yeah.
AP: And Nuremberg has been well documented by John Nicholl of course but that was a complete disaster because it was a beautiful moonlight night. A beautiful night and you could see for miles but the winds were, the winds were behind us and we got there far too early.
CB: Right.
AP: I believe Rusty was on that raid, wasn’t he?
CB: He was. Yes.
AP: Well he would tell you that. I suppose.
CB: Yes. So, in terms of bomb aiming you’ve got the markers sent down. What colour were they and how did you respond?
AP: Either red or green.
CB: Right.
AP: Well we were told, we were told by the Pathfinders which to bomb on, you see. I didn’t, I didn’t like that aspect of flying really because you didn’t know quite what you were going to hit. It could be a hospital, a school. You didn’t know. Whereas with the runup to D-day you had specified military targets and you knew that you weren’t affecting the civilian population. Because I wasn’t at all happy with bombing. I didn’t do the Dresden raid thank goodness but wearing my other cap it seemed so unnecessary to me to have bombed Dresden. It was a beautiful city. I have been back since and they’ve rebuilt it and even so it did seem a great shame to do that at that point in time.
CB: So, in the Nuremberg raid did you get any damage to your aircraft?
AP: No. Luckily, we had a very good run but all around us we saw aircraft going down. Ninety six went down that night. As you know.
CB: Yes.
AP: And we were told, you know, that the Germans were using scarecrows just to frighten us. They weren’t scarecrows they were Lancs blowing up. It’s a horrifying sight to see a Lancaster, you know, completely burning out.
CB: Did you know about Schrage Musik then?
AP: Hmm?
CB: Did you know about the German upward firing Schrage Musik?
AP: Oh yes. Yeah.
CB: At that time?
AP: Well, yes. We had H2S you know. H2S. And we were convinced that they were homing in on that. As soon as we got over the coast. Because that used to give us a picture of the ground on the, on the radar screen —
CB: Yes.
AP: But we were, we were convinced that the Germans were homing in on this. It may not have been the case but it was, it was one constant battle between the fighters and us, you know.
CB: Yes.
AP: We had Window as you know which was metallic strips. That used to help. No. In a way we were very lucky and of course having Geoff Probert, a very senior chap, he was thirty two. In fact, we called him grandad because we were all in our early twenties, you know and he used to keep us in order.
CB: He did.
AP: Yes. He was very good like that.
CB: Yes. What about other members of the crew? What were they like? So, navigator. Who was he?
AP: Tom Mackie. Tom Mackie was the navigator. He did the same sort of training that I did but he just missed out on the observer course and did the NavB and do you know after the war he set up a firm called [pause] and he became a millionaire with his own aircraft. I’ve forgotten the name now.
Other: City Electric.
AP: What?
Other: City Electric.
AP: City Electrical. Which is worldwide. He died about a year ago. Because I was very friendly with Tom. But he had, he had his own aircraft. In fact we flew — I did one or two flights with him after the war. He and it all started with his gratuity. He got in, he got into the motor trade just at the right time and sort of built, sort of built an empire.
CB: So, he was the navigator.
AP: Yeah.
CB: What about your wireless operator signal? Who was that?
AP: He was the one chap — we do know the others have passed on but our wireless operator was [pause] well we just lost, lost track of him. We tried to locate him. Tom, our navigator, used to go to Canada where we thought he was but he could never find him.
CB: What was his name?
AP: Lawrence. Vic Lawrence. He was the wireless operator. Nice guy but we just lost track of him so whether he’s alive or not we just do not know.
CB: What about the flight engineer? Who was that?
AP: Eric. Eric. [pause] the name’s gone. It’ll come back to me.
CB: Was he a busy man in the sorties?
AP: Oh yes. He was nearly a second pilot in a sense. He sat next to the pilot and he adjusted the, he sort of adjusted some of the instruments and on take-off he would hold the throttles open. How stupid, the names gone. When he, when he left the RAF he moved down to the coast near Bournemouth. I saw him a few times after. And he, I’ve got a picture of him up there. His wife was an ATA pilot.
CB: Oh.
AP: She flew aircraft from the factories to the squadrons. Mainly Spitfires of course.
CB: Yeah.
AP: I don’t think women ever flew Lancasters. Not to my knowledge.
CB: A couple of them did.
AP: Pardon?
CB: A couple of them did.
AP: Did they?
CB: Yeah.
AP: Well I don’t know. I was told that it was most unlikely but you say they did.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: It was a big, complicated aircraft to fly — the old Lanc.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. And then your mid-upper. Who was that?
AP: A guy called Bradd. B R A D D. Bradd. What happened was after two raids our original mid-upper gunner went LMF. He couldn’t take it any more after two raids. And I was sent to pick him up. It’s mentioned in this book by John Nicholl. The names are — I’m sorry I should have done more research before you turned up shouldn’t I?
CB: It’s ok. We can look it up. So, what exactly happened to him?
AP: He just didn’t like it. He thought, he thought he wouldn’t survive. Well we all thought we wouldn’t survive really but there we go. We pressed on.
CB: Was he the only one person you met who was an LMF victim as it were?
AP: Yeah. The only one. The only one I met. And then when he left we had a guy come along called Bradd. Dennis Bradd. B R A D D. And when I’d done, when we’d done the tour he hadn’t quite finished his. He had to do some more ops to make up his thirty and unfortunately, he went down two or three trips after which was most unfortunate because he was a nice guy.
CB: And what about the rear gunner?
AP: Yes. He was, he was a bit older than most of us. He was in his late twenties. He survived but he’s passed on now of course.
CB: What was his name?
AP: [pause] Dear me. It’ll come back to me. It’ll come back to me. I just cannot remember at the moment.
CB: Ok. When you were doing your training what sort of people were there in South Africa? Did they tend to be only British people or did people come from other of the Commonwealth countries?
AP: No. The people that trained us were mainly South Africans. South African Air Force
CB: Trained you.
AP: Trained us. And they were very good. I always say that. I think we had a good training in South Africa and of course the weather was good. There was no hold ups with the weather. You could get on with things whereas the guys that trained in this country and Canada had problems with the weather sometimes.
CB: Yeah.
AP: But you see the air gunners joined us on the squadrons. They didn’t have any training really. They were mainly basic. Perhaps with a low education rate — without being unkind. As you know.
CB: Well their role was to run the guns.
AP: Run the guns. Yes.
CB: What do you see their role as being in the aircraft as a crew member? What was their main role?
AP: Well mainly to look out for fighters coming in at us.
CB: So, because they had guns their job was to defend the aircraft. Was that right? How often, in your experience, did they use their guns?
AP: Very seldom. Very seldom.
CB: Why was that?
AP: Well maybe we were lucky. I don’t know. But I think the rear gunner used his guns once and the same with the mid-upper chap that came along.
CB: The one who went LMF, it wasn’t a bad experience of a fighter attack that caused him —
AP: Not at all. No. Not at all. I always remember I had to, I had to go along to a — I was trying to think — it was in the Midlands somewhere. He was being, he was being held at a police station. I can’t remember why. But I had to sign for a live body and I’d never done that before. A live body of the gunner. He was quite a nice guy. He just couldn’t take it. in fact, on the way back we went in to Nottingham to a dance hall and I had a few beers with him, you know and then brought him back to camp and of course as soon as he got back to camp he was whisked, whisked into the guardroom and then they used to tear off the brevets and the sergeant’s stripes and they really went through it you know.
CB: Did they do that in public? On a parade?
AP: Yeah, I did see it happen. There was a place at Coventry where they did that. It was done on parade. It was very dreadful really what they did. In my opinion.
CB: So why did they do that?
AP: Just to set an example really. I mean, in the First World War of course they used to shoot them didn’t they?
CB: Yeah.
AP: Anybody that —
CB: Yeah
AP: At least they didn’t do that. No. You were pretty tough after that training. Well the gunners never had much of a training. I don’t know why he ever became an aircrew member really.
CB: How did he fit? Before he went LMF how did he fit in the crew? Was it fairly obvious that he was —
AP: Well we never had him. You see we never had the gunners for long. We did the basic training with Con Unit, OTUs and then the gunners only came along later on.
CB: So normally the gunners would join at the OTU on the Wellington. Wouldn’t they?
AP: Not they didn’t in the case with myself. No.
CB: Right. Ok.
AP: They joined us later.
CB: Right. At the —
AP: It was just the basic members.
CB: At the Heavy Conversion Unit.
AP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AP: They joined at the Conversion Unit. Yes.
CB: Yeah. Right.
AP: Yes.
CB: And so, the engineer joined you though at the OTU. Oh no there was no engineer at the OTU because they didn’t —
AP: No. There was no engineer then. No.
CB: The Wellington didn’t have them.
AP: No. They came along at Con Unit. It was just pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. They were the main ones. And the wireless. They were the main ones who joined. Who were there.
CB: Right.
AP: From the word go.
CB: Now, you started off as an AC2. How did your promotion go and why?
AP: Well it was the time. You become a sergeant after, when you pass out. Then after a year you became a flight sergeant.
CB: After a year.
AP: After a year.
CB: Right.
AP: Then you got recommended. Certain of us got recommended for commissions, you see.
AP: Do you know what the basis — what was the basis of the decision for making people —
AP: I don’t know exactly. The CO. The group captain in charge really. No. I never quite know. I got one and the navigator got one and the rear gunner got one. We all got commissions.
CB: So, what was the rear gunner’s strengths that made him suitable?
AP: Do you know I don’t quite know. It was just the fact that he was over thirty by that time I suppose and he was a fairly senior bod and they decided to give him a commission. I can’t think of his name, you know. And I saw him a few times after the war because he lived up in North London somewhere. We had a few meetings together. It’s stupid the way names go isn’t it?
CB: It’ll come back to you later.
AP: It will.
CB: But did you, did you do many things together as a complete crew when you were on 630?
AP: Oh yes. We went out a lot together.
CB: What did you do?
AP: Our favourite pub was the Red Lion at Revesby which was about a five mile cycle ride which we did no trouble at all. And I told you we had this little lady, Pat, who took a shine to me. And she used to sing you know. She used to get up in the pub and sing. She was good like that.
CB: She was the WAAF?
AP: She was a WAAF.
CB: What did she do in the RAF?
AP: Well she was on the reception committees. When you came back she would help make you comfortable. Bring you cups of tea and things. Plenty of cigarettes everywhere which was crazy really but they did. And that’s what she did. They sort of picked the ones who were outgoing types of girls, you know. She was quite outgoing in that respect.
CB: So at the end of a raid how did you feel?
AP: Relieved. Relieved.
CB: So you got down. What was the process? The plane lands. Then what?
AP: Well we had the —
CB: You taxied,
AP: Debriefing of course.
CB: You taxied to dispersal.
AP: Oh yeah.
CB: And then —?
AP: Emptied the, emptied the aircraft out and then we had to be debriefed.
CB: Each one individually?
AP: No. We all sat as a crew with the debriefing officer and one of the girls would be with us. Give us tea and things like that. That’s how I met up with Pat really. Because she used to be doing that sort of work you see. And then we went out together to places like Revesby. It’s not far from — do you know Revesby?
CB: Yeah.
AP: The Red Lion there. It’s still there you know.
CB: Yes.
AP: Just the same.
CB: Yes.
AP: I often called in there when going that way to renew acquaintances. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Yeah. I used to think nothing of cycling five miles then for a drink
CB: And how —
AP: Beer wasn’t easy to get hold up. Decent beer.
CB: Did it run out regularly?
AP: Yeah. And there was one pub we went to they were so short of glasses we drank out of jam jars. I forget which pub it was but I think that was The Plough at East Kirkby. No. The Red Lion at East Kirkby. We did use that very often. That got so crowded. It was so near the ‘drome. We preferred to go out to Revesby.
CB: Right.
AP: We went to Mareham too. That wasn’t too far away.
CB: Now, we’ve talked about the aircrew. We’ve talked about your debriefing. How did the link go with the ground crew? How? Did you liaise with them much or —?
AP: Oh yes, we went out to drinks together but on the whole not too much. No. They didn’t seem to want to be too involved but we did have one or two nights out with them certainly. And during the moon spells you could afford to have drinks. You knew you wouldn’t be called on. The exception being Nuremberg when they did call us out with a full moon but apart from that normally the moon was a quiet period.
CB: Right. And the crew chief. What would he be? Rank.
AP: Corporal or sergeant.
CB: And what was their attitude to the aircraft?
AP: Oh, they looked after their own aircraft. My word they did. They were very proud of it. You know. Keep it serviceable. There were so many, you know, became [pause] not de-serviceable. What’s the word?
CB: A wreck.
AP: Not a wreck exactly but, you know, they had to do a lot of work on them. They kept ours — they kept us flying all the time. That was one good thing. I feel sorry for this present Lanc. They’ve had this engine fire, haven’t they?
CB: Yeah.
AP: And it seems it’s quite a major problem. The air frame’s been affected around the engine mounting.
CB: Oh, has it? Yes.
AP: Yes. So, I’m told. So how long it will before it flies again I do not know. At the same time the Panton is hoping to get Just Jane flying but whether they will or not I don’t know. They say it’s going to cost a lot of money to get the airframe right and to get a certificate of air worthiness. That’s the problem.
CB: Going back to the war experience what was your worst experience on a raid?
AP: Well I wouldn’t say Nuremberg although Nuremberg was bad. I wouldn’t say it was the worst one. I think the worst one was Mailly-le-Camp where we seemed to be buzzing around for ages waiting for things to happen.
CB: This is the Cheshire raid.
AP: Yeah. I don’t blame Cheshire at all. He was a good, he was a good chap. In fact, we did a Munich raid some time afterwards where he took off about two, he took off two hours after we did [laughs] and we flew down to North Italy and then we headed north for Munich and bombed Munich and Cheshire had moved in in the meantime and dropped his flares with a Mosquito. Yes. He was good like that and of course [pause] the Dambuster fellow. He went down in a Mosquito didn’t he?
CB: Gibson. Yes.
AP: Guy Gibson. Couldn’t think of the name for a minute. I hope you’ll pardon me forgetting names.
CB: That’s ok.
AP: As I say these things are affecting me a bit. These.
CB: Could you talk us through your situation as an air bomber because you’re the person looking at the flak coming up. So, at what — so could you talk us through the point the pilot hands over to you. Could you just talk us through what you did? What it was like. How you dealt with it.
AP: Well the air bomber, the air bomber or bomb aimer as some say — the official title is air bomber by the way. His job really was to take over when the bombing site was coming up and to guide the pilot to the markers. And we were told what marker. It was either red or green normally. And of course, we had to, we had to man the guns. I never fired the front guns but they were there if necessary. But we always used to say, ‘Left. Left. Right.’ ‘Left. Left,’ you had to say. You didn’t say left or right. It had to be, ‘Left left.’ Or right. That was one — so that sort of did away with any sort of errors you see. But as I say the bomb aimer saw everything going on more than anybody else. The poor old navigator — he didn’t see a thing. He was behind closed curtains. Probably just as well. He didn’t see a thing. The wireless operator too. But the bomb aimer was there to see everything.
CB: So, what were you actually seeing? Because the run in takes how long?
AP: Oh, it could take anything from thirty minutes to two or three minutes. We were flying, I’ll say one thing about the old Lanc you could get up to about twenty three, twenty four thousand feet and it seemed like ages going in, you know. With flak all around you. It always seemed you could never get through the flak. It always seemed there was a hole in the flak and you were in that hole, you know. Just marching along. We got hit once or twice but only minor stuff.
CB: So, when you’re on the run in the pilot is effectively saying, ‘Over to you.’ Is he?
AP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: You’re not actually controlling anything yourself but you’re telling him what to do.
AP: Oh no. He’s got the controls to guide the thing. We’re just saying either, ‘Left. Left,’ ‘Right,’ or so on. You know.
CB: And then —
AP: We had, of course, control of all the switch gear. You know, the bomb selector.
CB: Ok. So just talk us through the bomb selection because you had a wide range of ordnance on board so how did that work? There was a sequence.
AP: Well it was pretty much automatic really, you know. Our main bomb load used to be a four thousand pound cookie with incendiaries. And it was all automatic. Once you, once you got over the target you pressed the button and everything worked automatically. And the camera which was in the back of the aircraft which we didn’t like. That was phosphor bomb.
CB: So, there was a sequence that the bombs left.
AP: Yeah.
CB: What was the sequence?
AP: Well the cookie normally went first. The four thousand pounder. Followed by the incendiaries. We did have raids where we had fourteen one thousand pound bombs but normally on the mass bombing it was to cause fires which I didn’t go much on to be quite frank. But there again it was a, that was the way it was directed we should fight the war.
CB: Right. So, the cookie was non, it wasn’t aerodynamic. It was just a cylinder so —
AP: Like a big dustbin. Yeah.
CB: What did it do? It was a blast bomb.
AP: A blast bomb. Yeah. That blasted everything so the incendiaries would come along and set fire to the blasting but there were so many bombs being dropped I don’t think they made much difference really. And we were given a time to, we were given, different squadrons had different times to approach the target you see.
CB: Right.
AP: And the Pathfinders [pause] they would, you know, they would direct the bombers to what they thought was relevant at the time. Yeah.
CB: So, the Pathfinders were circling. Or the master bomber was circling. Giving instruction was he?
AP: They — I wouldn’t say they would. They used to go in first and mark the target but I don’t think they hung about. It wasn’t healthy to hang about.
CB: I meant the master bomber would stay and watch. Would he?
AP: In the mass raids — no. In the more selective raids like Munich and some of the other raids he’d be there all the time. But on the mass raids early on, the Berlins, it was just a question of the Pathfinders coming in, marking the target and then getting the hell out of it.
CB: So what heights were you normally, normally delivering your load?
AP: Twenty one, twenty three thousand. Yeah. Pretty high really. We were above the Halifaxes and Stirlings. I always felt sorry for the Stirlings. That’s why I quite liked meeting that friend of yours.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Because how he survived I do not know but he did didn’t he?
CB: Extraordinary.
AP: Did he do a full raid?
CB: He did. So I’ll cover that with you later. But the air bomber bit is interesting because we don’t necessarily have much detail on that and so that’s why I’m just asking you a bit more about it. And —
AP: Yeah. Well, as I say, it varied over the course of my time you see. First of all it was mass bombing, then more selective bombing and then pinpoint bombing as we approached D-day you see. The whole character of the thing was changing actually.
CB: So, when, when you did the pinpoint bombing. Was that with markers?
AP: No.
CB: ‘Cause a lot of it’s daylight isn’t it?
AP: No. No. Not daylight at all. No. No. We had to do it by map reading and —
CB: Ok.
AP: There were no markers then. No.
CB: No. ‘Cause we’re talking, for you we’re talking we’re talking pre-D-Day.
AP: On some day there were only two squadrons. Only twenty or thirty aircraft, you see.
CB: Yeah.
AP: That was, they were the interesting raids really. They were the raids I preferred because we knew then that we were bombing specific targets to the, for the good of the army. And we were trying to upset the German transport movements.
CB: Yeah. So, going back to you’ve released your bombs. You’ve got a camera and then there’s a flash that goes down.
AP: There’s a flash. Yeah.
CB: Does that, how does the timing work for that? Do you set it as the bomber aimer?
AP: That, again, is all automatic.
CB: So —
AP: We didn’t, we didn’t like the phosphor bombs because I mean, if they hang up they were deadly you know.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Did you have them at all?
CB: I know what you mean. Yeah.
AP: They were at the back of the aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
AP: By the toilet.
CB: Right.
AP: But as I say they would drop automatically and then they were timed to go off to take the photos as the bomb, as the bomb exploded.
CB: Because the time of their firing would depend on how high you were.
AP: Yes. It was all, it was all done automatically you know by the, by the experts shall we say.
CB: So, what was the purpose of the camera?
AP: I frankly don’t know. It seemed to me to be a bit unnecessary but at least it proved you’d been there. There was a danger you see, I suppose that some crews may not have even have bombed the target. And that was proof you’d been there. Oh, I got some good aiming point photographs. I think that’s why they awarded me the old DFC. We got some good aiming point photographs.
CB: At what point did you receive the award of DFC?
AP: After the, after the tour. They analysed things you know and we’d had a good record of aiming point photographs.
CB: Who else in the crew?
AP: The pilot did. And myself. I thought Tom MacKay, the navigator should have had one because he was very good chap. In fact, he flew, when Gwen was ill he flew her out to Switzerland twice you know to try and get her better treatment but it didn’t work. She had Parkinson’s. But he knew somebody in Switzerland, in Geneva who he thought might help her because he lived out there for a time. And he arranged, he had his own, as I say he had his own aircraft and we flew her out there a couple of times but it wasn’t to be.
CB: When you came off operations you now went on to training other people you said.
AP: Yeah.
CB: What was that like in contrast?
AP: A jaywalk really. There wasn’t a lot to do really, you know. We had to find, we had to find time. We had to sort of find jobs to do really because although we were helping to train other people we were doing compass swings and things like that. We were back on Ansons and it all seemed a bit airy fairy after Lancasters but it had to be. You know, we were training. We were sending out the new crews coming along.
CB: Was there a sense of relief doing it or was it just boring?
AP: A bit of both. A bit of both.
CB: So, when you came to be demobbed how did you feel about that?
AP: Well I was demobbed, of course, from Palestine. And that’s when I mentioned I was flown in a Dakota back to Heathrow which was just a series of huts in those days. We had a good long run. They paid us for a good long holiday. Two or three months I think. Then I went on to Oxford, you see.
CB: How did you come to meet your future wife, Gwen?
AP: I was in the Royal Air Force then.
CB: What was she?
AP: She wasn’t in the air force. No. She wasn’t Royal Air Force. The other girl I had, that I knew, was Pat. She was with me at the Operational Training Unit but I’d finished by the time I went to North Wales.
CB: By the time you finished your tour did you feel short changed for not doing thirty or was there a sense of relief?
AP: Well it was a sense of relief I think. We were quite badly quite shot up on that. We were mine laying you see in [pause] we were mine laying in — what’s the name of the port.
CB: Brest.
AP: We were attacked by a JU88.
CB: And what height would you be flying for mine laying?
AP: Oh we were quite low. We were quite low. I’m trying to think what [pause] what was the first question you asked me?
CB: What? The sense of relief? I asked you earlier what your worst experience was.
AP: Well that was one of the worst. Yes. [pause] Kiel Bay. I couldn’t think of the word. Kiel Bay.
CB: Where’s that.
AP: We were laying mines in Kiel Bay.
CB: Where’s that? Oh, outside Kiel.
AP: Kiel. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: Kiel Bay. I couldn’t think of the words for a minute. You see, I mean, despite the ops we had one or two occasions where we boomeranged. You know, something went wrong with the aircraft and we had to return. It happened to the guy who died a few weeks ago. The New Zealand, the New Zealand Dambuster fellow.
CB: Yeah.
AP: He had to, he had come back because he had a hit and his compass was put out of action. And we had one or two cases like that.
CB: Les Munro.
AP: Yes, I couldn’t think. Len Munro. Yeah.
CB: Les. Yeah.
AP: Les Munro I meant. I met him a few times.
CB: Did you?
AP: A nice guy he was.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Did you ever meet him?
CB: He was over recently. I never met him but he was.
AP: I met him at Aces High two or three times. He had his girlfriend with him. He’d lost his wife but he had a lady companion who was very pleasant. She used to help him but he was pretty active right to the end. Well, I didn’t see him at the end of course. As I say there was cases too when you would get all ready to go. All the build-up and everything and then it would be cancelled. All that sort of getting ready. Nearly all, not all day but you had to do a night flying test before where everybody went up and flew for about half an hour and tested everything and then you’d come back and then go to briefing. So that was all part of the game but those didn’t count.
CB: Was that a frustration?
AP: Frustration really. Yes. Having spent the whole afternoon or a bit longer getting ready and then to find it was cancelled. That happened a few times and that didn’t count.
CB: So, what was the atmosphere before you went on the raid amongst the crew?
AP: The atmosphere. It’s a job to pinpoint it really Chris. We were all a bit apprehensive I suppose really. A bit apprehensive. Is it recording? But some of the crews used to have a pee on to the — on to — what was it now? There were different ways people had to let off steam. We all had our little [pause] I had a little St Christopher I always took with me. Geoff, the pilot, had a scarf. And I remember one raid, we were ready to take off and he’d forgotten his scarf. Luckily, he had his motorbike with him and he shot off to the billets, got his scarf and came back. It made us a bit late but he was determined he wouldn’t fly without his scarf. We all had these little [pause] what’s the word? Keepsakes.
CB: Did everybody do that?
AP: Lucky charms.
CB: Yeah. Lucky charms. Did everybody?
AP: Yeah most had. I had a little St Christopher which I’ve lost now but I did have one and I always made sure I had it.
CB: And when the tour was over was there a feeling that you would get together at some stage afterwards or was there just an acceptance that you were being disbursed?
AP: There was just an acceptance. That’s the problem really. You were sort of lived together for six months. You were living together, you know and then you suddenly break up and everybody goes their own way. And we didn’t all get together afterwards. We tried. Geoff Probert, my skipper, he went to Hatfield and I never did see him. We tried to meet up once or twice and we never did. Then he went up to Sheffield and he died fairly young. ‘Cause he was older than the rest of us. So getting together was a problem. I did reach some of the guys afterwards but you see after the war you really had to forget all about it and I did for about five or six years. Going to Oxford you had to get your head down and get down to studies and you more or less forgot all about the war. It’s only now, in latter years, that we begin to think about it again.
CB: But did, what did you feel the general public’s attitude was to people who had been effectively on the front line? After the war.
AP: Well, as I say I didn’t really think too much about it then. I think people were quite sympathetic to what we had done. Some people thought we were having, having it too cushy. At least one thing — we came back to white sheets. We didn’t sleep in dirty, muddy trenches which I would have hated. We came back to a decent bed after a raid and we were looked after.
CB: Yeah.
AP: With our eggs and bacon.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Which no one else could get.
CB: No.
AP: That was a great relief to have eggs and bacon and that type of thing. So some people thought that aircrew and submarine people had been molly coddled but we had a fairly dangerous job to do.
CB: A final question then. You’ve touched on it already. How did you feel about what you were doing in actually aiming — effectively aiming the aircraft and dropping the bombs?
AP: How did I feel?
CB: Each time.
AP: I didn’t like the area bombing because you never quite knew where your bombs were landing. I was always a bit perturbed about that. I had that in my mind you know but we had a job to do. And they started the bombing first so we had to sort of — they bombed Coventry and London didn’t they? But as I say towards the end of the war with the bombing — the run up to D-day it was a different cup of tea really.
CB: Yeah. And was your bomb sight — what was that like?
AP: The Mk 14.
CB: Yeah. Were you happy with that or —?
AP: Oh yes. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AP: Of course they’ve improved no end now. In fact, if you when you’ve got time I’ll take you to the Trenchard Museum at Halton where they’ve got some of the old Mk 14 bomb sights. You want to go to go there, you know.
CB: We will. The Americans claimed that their bomb sights were so much better for accuracy. That’s why I ask the question.
AP: I think ours was pretty good. We got some good aiming point photographs. The Americans may have been better because they did their daylight stuff didn’t they? Mark you they did catch a pasting didn’t they? On some of these daylight raids. Didn’t they?
CB: Absolutely.
AP: Yeah.
CB: Well, we’ve done really well Alan. Thank you so much. I’m going to stop the tape now and we’ll have —
AP: I’m sorry. I should have done genned up with this. There are things I forgot didn’t I?
[Recording paused]
CB: Hang on. Just as an extra then Alan. We talked about Pat and I wonder first of all when you went on a raid what was the reaction of the WAAFs as you set off?
AP: Well there was a great deal of cooperation. I think they felt that, you know, most of the crews knew a WAAF somewhere down the line and they were invariably at the end of the runway to wave us as we went off. Without them we’d have missed it. They weren’t there when we came back of course. They were all in the debriefing huts waiting for us to come back. But no, they cooperated. I think they realised what we were doing and I felt that their presence helped a heck of a lot.
CB: So, in terms of Pat she clearly was a major factor in your life then.
AP: During that time. Yes. During that time, she was. Helped to take off the stress off the bombing ‘cause we used to go for cycle rides and things together, you know and she’d come out drinking with us. And she used to sing. She had quite a good voice. I don’t know where she learned to sing but she used to get up and sing. She was a bit, sort of outgoing in that respect. There aren’t many girls who would get up in the pub and sing are there?
CB: Probably not. But how did this break up in time?
AP: What?
CB: This relationship you had with her.
AP: Well we didn’t — when I got posted away of course, I mean, I couldn’t keep up with meeting all the time and I suppose we did write for a time of course and gradually I suppose the letters got less and less and it just faded away but I often wonder what happened. Even now I often wonder if she’s alive still.
CB: In your experience with 630 Squadron Association are there any people who were ground crew personnel who have been members or did it tend only to be aircrew?
AP: It’s funny that you should say that. I met a, we had a meeting at Aces High with Bomber Command and there was a WAAF there who was a driver at East Kirkby. She lives now in Bournemouth and she was there with her son. I didn’t know her at the time but she told me she was on transport. You know they used to drive the crews out to the aircraft and she was doing that. Well, she’s older than me. She was ninety three I think she told me. So that’s one case but there aren’t many of the old WAAFs turn up.
CB: No.
AP: We do see — now who was, who was the inventor of the bouncing bomb, now.
CB: Barnes Wallis.
AP: Her —
CB: His daughter.
AP: His daughter comes along. You’ve met her have you? She often comes along with — oh [pause] the last remaining bomb aimer. I saw him the other day. His name is gone now. He was up at East Kirkby. Johnny Johnson. He’s written a book. The farmer’s boy he was, wasn’t he? Have you read the book?
CB: I haven’t. no. But he —
AP: Oh, I’ve got it. I haven’t read it. I gave it to my other son because he was a farmer. Johnny Johnson.
CB: Ok. That’s really good. Thank you very much.
[recording paused]
CB: One more question now, Alan. People tend to have an affection not just for lucky charms but for aircraft so were you normally with the same plane? Or what was the situation?
AP: We were normally with the same plane. Yes. There were occasions of course when we didn’t have the same plane. But it was always nice to have the same plane. And LEY was ours. LEY.
CB: And if you flew in another one how did you feel?
AP: Oh, it didn’t really bother me too much but it was just nice to know you had your own aircraft.
CB: Because they tend to have specific characteristics.
AP: I suppose they do, really. Yes. Yeah.
CB: Ok. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok.
AP: Well there was a survey party had got lost in the Sahara and they asked for volunteers to go and find it. Well, they had a sort of point where they thought he was and we had to make for that and then we started to do a square search based on the visibility. And we found it and they waved to us and we radio’d back where they were. But that’s just one little thing we did and we had to volunteer for that. We had this note that these people were lost in the desert.
CB: Yeah. A practical humanitarian task.
AP: Well yeah. Yeah.
CB: Let me just take you back to that JU88 encounter because that could have been fatal.
AP: Oh easy. So easy.
CB: So what happened? What height were you etcetera and how did he find you? And —
AP: Well it just happened. We were sailing along and all of a sudden these bursts burst of cannon fire all around us. I mean the rear gunner should have seen him really but he never saw him and I think he was — he wasn’t underneath us. He was behind us. Normally the idea was to come up from the underside.
CB: Yeah.
AP: And fire in to the petrol tanks.
CB: Yes. Yeah. So the, so the gunner — he was coming from behind and the gunner didn’t see.
AP: Didn’t see him. No.
CB: What was the — in the dark this was.
AP: In the dark, oh yes.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, he starts firing so the shells are exploding is that right?
AP: Yeah.
CB: Then — then what happened?
AP: Well there weren’t many shells actually. In fact, you know, we thought he would come back because the plane had caught fire. Luckily it went out. And we honestly thought he would come back for another go but he didn’t. I think he thought he’d got us and that was it. And old Geoff, the pilot put it into a steep dive and started to corkscrew and we lost the JU88.
CB: So, the corkscrew might have been the solution.
AP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: But what happened to the strikes? Where were the strikes on the aircraft? On your plane.
AP: Well, as I say one was on the rear turret and the other side and one in the wing but apart from, it didn’t really do any sort of damage structurally. Although one caused a fire, you see. And one —
CB: Where was the fire?
AP: I’ve got a picture of this machine gun. The machine gun is all bent over where the shell hit it. And the rear gunner — he was jolly lucky to be alive. He really was.
CB: So, let me get this straight the shell hits the rear turret. In the gun.
AP: It hit the end of the gun. It was remarkable. It really was.
CB: And the gunner wasn’t injured.
AP: No. He wasn’t hurt. He was sort of knocked out, you know. He was semi, he was sort of, you know, the blast sort of knocked him out temporarily. He was sort of muttering away, you know, half in and half out but he came around and we still had the mines on board, you know. That was another thing. We didn’t jettison. We went on and dropped them afterwards ‘cause when he attacked we were still going in on to the target, you see. In to the bay, Kiel bay. And that was our twenty ninth raid. And I think the CO, Wing Commander [Dee?] saw we’d had enough. ‘Oh, you can stand down now,’ he said.
CB: After. After that. Yes. So, you dropped your mines successfully.
AP: Yeah, we dropped the mines.
CB: What height would you drop a mines from? ‘Cause you can’t do it from height ‘cause it’ll break.
AP: No. You can’t do it from height. No.
CB: So what height were you dropping?
AP: I think we must have been about twelve thousand feet. Something like that. Yeah. A long time ago now. You tend to forget these things don’t you?
CB: Sure. Yeah. Thanks.
Dublin Core
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APayneAJ150811
Title
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Interview with Alan Payne
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:21:03 audio recording
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Pending review
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2015-08-11
Description
An account of the resource
Alan Payne was born in Wendover, Buckinghamshire. He volunteered for aircrew with the Royal Air Force and after initial training was sent to South Africa where he trained as an observer. When he returned to the UK, he was allocated the role of bomb aimer and after joining a crew he was posted to 630 Squadron at RAF East Kirkby. His first operation was to Berlin. He describes the operation to Mailly-le-Camp as one of his worst experiences with Bomber Command. Returning from an operation on Nuremberg his aircraft was attacked by an Me 109 and on their last operation mine laying off Kiel they were attacked by a Ju 88. After his tour Alan became an instructor before being posted to Palestine. When he was demobbed he undertook training at Oxford University to become an architect.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
South African Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
South Africa
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Kiel
Temporal Coverage
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1944-05-03
1944-05-04
Contributor
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Julie Williams
630 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
coping mechanism
crewing up
debriefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Me 109
military living conditions
mine laying
Nissen hut
observer
RAF Dumfries
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Silverstone
RAF Torquay
RAF Turweston
RAF Winthorpe
Scarecrow
superstition
target photograph
training
Wellington
Window
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/194/27222/BAdamsHGAdamsHGv1.1.pdf
b59dbbc61b0779c5dd48c6f39bec2786
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Adams, Herbert
Herbert Adams
H Adams
Herbert G Adams
Description
An account of the resource
88 items. Collection concerns Herbert George Adams DFC, Legion d'Honour (b. 1924, 424509 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 467 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, photographs of people and places, several memoirs about his training and bombing operations, letters to his family, his flying logbook and notes on navigation.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Herbert Adams and catalogued by Nigel Huckins and Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-02-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Adams, HG
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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1.
At our Squadron (467) we continued “in-service” training, mainly fighter-affiliation, often with cine-camera “guns” against Hurricanes mainly, sometimes a Spitfire … with analysis following. We did 7 of these, plus further bombing practice. Loran was introduced in November (’44), so after simulator training we did 2 training flights using it. We also had (earlier) some simulator training with H2S which was fitted [inserted] & used [/inserted] as early as Jan ’43, but we were’nt [sic] allowed to use it on operations because of the danger of German fighters “homing-in” on it! An exception was a daylight raid on Wilhelmshaven (on 5.10.44) when we dropped our load of incendiaries through 10/10 cloud using H2S.
After we finished our “tour” I was posted to Training Command … one of several Heavy Conversion Units where we helped to prepare crews for operations against Japan … the “Tiger Force” of 400 Lancasters & Lincolns. The Americans were reluctant to let the RAF use any of their air bases until eventually, they agreed to share Okinawa. The first lot of Tiger Force, led by the “special” Lancasters of 617 & 9 Squadrons arrived in July ’45 … they didn’t get anywhere near their planned 400 planes out there before the Atom Bombs stopped the war.
We flew about 84 hours (20 flights) mainly where I was the only staff member … is instructor for the crew’s navigator. The bulk of our navigation instruction was in the classroom or on simulators. It was all rather dull routine, with 2 exceptions.
One night, when I was in the Control Tower as Duty Navigator, several German planes (likely Me 110’s) came across the English Coast with returning bombers & were undetected … until the [sic] began shooting down training
[page break]
[underlined] 2. [/underlined]
planes .. I think 2 at Wigsley, where we were, and several more at adjoining training bases, plus one of them attacked Waddington, machine-gunning the Officers Mess & having a go at the bomb-dump (without success). Caused a big panic, but I think it happened on a couple of other occasions. Brave Germans.
A fellow instructor, “Twitcher” Kennedy (F/Sgt) who had a medal from some S. American country for surviving (I think) 19 raids on Berlin in his tour, was flying as navigator instructor with a crew who’d done a “cross-country”, then went to do air-to-sea gunnery practice over the ocean, firing at a patch of aluminium powder they’d dropped. The pilot, silly boy, came well below the safety height to give his gunners [deleted] e [/deleted] easy shots, dipped his wing in the ocean, & killed most of the crew, including “Twitcher”, aged 21.
A bit about “Fire Storms”. There was a big, and continuing, “hoo-ha” about the bombing of Dresden so late in the war .. mid Feb. ’45 … mainly because of the fact that a fire-storm occurred, killing a lot of people & doing a lot of damage. However, there is no way that the RAF could deliberately cause a fire-storm … it was just luck. The first, of just a hand-ful [sic] of such storms was at Hamburg, way back in July ’43. It may well have been partly due to the fact that WINDOW was first used, “blotting-out” the German radar, leaving their heavy concentration of AA. & searchlights unguided … & so the bombers may have been a lot more accurate than usual (“usual” was not good in those days). Plus, it was hot.
[page break]
3.
Yet this was the first fire-storm in thousands of raids. The only other ones mentioned in the many books I’ve read were: Damstadt 11.9.44 (8000 killed); Magdeburg 16-17 Jan ’45 (460 killed); Pforzheim 23-4 Feb ’45 (17,000 killed); and Wurzburg 16-17 Mar ’45 (5000 killed). Besides those, we took part, just with 5 Group, on 3 raids which caused firestorms … on 12.9.44 Bremen (1171 killed); 18.9.44 Bremerhaven (30 000 homeless in the open for a few days); and Bremen on 6.10.44 … “much destruction … finished Bremen” … none of these got a mention … so only 9 firestorms in all the years of bombing … they were just “flukes” … but bad luck for those towns.
A bit about Weaving, Corkscewing [sic] & Banking Seaches. [sic] Prior to the use of WINDOW, the German A.A. & searchlights were guided by Radar; so the technique used by bombers was to WEAVE … perhaps 20o – 30o either side of the desired course when the pilot saw AA or searchlights ahead. There was not much else they could do … perhaps try lower altitude. But weaving was popular. Once WINDOW became established, the German resorted to Barrage Flak along the path to the target. It looked bad to fly through, but going straight & level through it was the safest … if you [deleted] go to [/deleted] got out of the “stream” the night-fighters could pick you up by radar. So we did not ever do weaving.
In August ’43, during an attack on Peenemunde, the research station for the development of V.1 & V.2’s, that the Germans first used “Schrage Musik” where fighters were equipped with upward-firing guns … often getting below a bomber undetected … often close enough to deliberately aim at main petrol tanks … a sure kill.
[page break]
[underlined] 4. [/underlined]
I think that the RAF deliberately kept quiet about this … it would be bad for morale. But pilots were told to do “banking searches” over enemy territory to allow gunners to pick-up approaching fighters before they could attack. Our pilot was conscientious about this … we would hear “down port, reply all-clear port, down starboard, all clear starbord [sic]” for hour after hour. We only saw enemy fighters well-astern 2 or 3 times, & each time began the corkscrew manoevre [sic] at once. It seemed to be well known that German night-fighters would abandon those bombers & look for “easy-pickings” from below someone who hadn’t seen them. And although the concentration of flak & searchlights continued to grow as the war wore on, I think the losses to night-fighters increased. Some figures suggest that our loss rate eased off in the latter part of the war, but it was mainly that Bomber Command gave up on the Battle of Berlin about March ’44 as the losses then (about 5 percent) were not sustainable. During our tour the loss rate was closer to 2 percent than 3 percent, yet many crews were lost before ending a tour … 5 of the 8 crews who began with us were shot down. I’ve read that some of the Schrage Musik pilots claimed over a hundred Lancasters downed in 1944-45. Our base lost 2 Wing Commanders & 2 Flight Commanders in Feb – Apr 1945.
I think we were lucky to have serviced in 5 Group. Bomber Command had 6 Groups, but to a large extent 5 Group operated alone on most of our targets, often when the rest of Bomber Command continued with the area-bombing of cities, which, in retrospect, seems to have been a faulty obsession of “Bomber” Harris.
[page break]
Bomber Command. 1944.
Up to March ’44, Bomber Command mainly attacked large targets at night … big manufacturing places, especially the Ruhr. American bombers mostly bombed in daylight, escorted by long-range fighters. These bombers (Fortresses & Liberators) carried a lot of ammunition, some armour-plating, and a much smaller bomb-load than the British Lancasters & Halifaxes. They often endured running battles with German fighters for hours on long trips like Berlin.
After March ’44, Bomber Command abandoned night attacks on Berlin due to unsustainable losses. The German night-fighters had developed tactics to down our heavies by shooting from below where we only had partial coverage from the rear turret. Instead, Mosquito bombers began almost nightly raids on Berlin. These planes carried nearly as much bomb-load as a Fortress & just a crew of 2, taking 4 hours instead of 8. But the number of planes used was not great, more of a nuisance perhaps … & their loss-rate was very low.
In preparation for D-Day, Bomber Command began using heavies on short daylight raids “softening-up” the eastern side of the Channel for the invasion, and trying to stop the V1 bombs at their source. The number of ‘ops’ to a ‘tour’ was [deleted] reduced fr [/deleted] increased from 30 to 36, as most of these ‘trips’ took only about 3 hours.
Just prior to D-Day the heavies concentrated on railway bridges, locomotive workshops,
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
In Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Writes of training and briefly about operations on 467 Squadron. Continues to describe events after finishing his tour when he was training crews destined for Tiger Force as well as other training tasks. Writes of a training crash of a Lancaster killing all crew. Provides comments on firestorms and goes on to mention weaving, corkscrewing and banking prior to window. Writes about the introduction of Schrage Musik and that the air force deliberately kept quite about it. Continues with accounts of his crews tactics when engaged by fighters and anti-aircraft. Concludes with comments about bombing strategies in 1944 including being taken off operations against Germany for D-Day preparation.
Creator
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H G Adams
Format
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Five page handwritten document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BAdamsHGAdamsHGv1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Darmstadt
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Pforzheim
Germany--Würzburg
Germany--Bremerhaven
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
467 Squadron
5 Group
617 Squadron
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
crash
H2S
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
perception of bombing war
searchlight
Tiger force
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1524/30282/BBaxterPDBaxterPDv1.1.pdf
577eb11ecf5974b8a0c61795657b59c5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Baxter, Peter Dennis
P D Baxter
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Baxter, PD
Description
An account of the resource
63 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Peter Baxter (b. 1922, 52604 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, photographs and documents. He was trained as an airframe apprentice at RAF Halton and served as ground crew before volunteering to become air crew. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 12 and 153 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Michael Baxter and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
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Title
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I Flew with Nine Wing Commanders
Description
An account of the resource
The detailed and wide ranging story of Peter Baxter's service in the RAF from an Airframe Apprentice to Flight Engineer Leader.
Creator
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Peter Baxter
Format
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Book in .pdf
Language
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eng
Type
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Text. Memoir
Text
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BBaxterPDBaxterPDv1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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England--Lincolnshire
England--Buckinghamshire
Wales--Glamorgan
England--Staffordshire
Wales--Gwynedd
Germany--Berlin
Italy--Milan
France--La Rochelle
Europe--Frisian Islands
Germany--Essen
Germany--Düsseldorf
Italy--Turin
France--Lorient
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Nuremberg
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Paderborn
Italy
Great Britain
Germany
France
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
12 Squadron
153 Squadron
50 Squadron
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
Battle
Beaufighter
Blenheim
bombing
Cook’s tour
coping mechanism
crash
crewing up
debriefing
dispersal
Distinguished Flying Medal
Do 217
entertainment
final resting place
fitter airframe
fitter engine
flight engineer
fuelling
ground crew
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 3
He 111
Heavy Conversion Unit
incendiary device
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Lincoln
mess
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
nose art
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
pilot
promotion
RAF Cosford
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Halton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kirmington
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Scampton
RAF St Athan
RAF Sturgate
RAF Tilstock
RAF Waddington
RAF Wickenby
recruitment
target photograph
training
Whitley
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1181/30735/BWagnerHWWagnerHWv1-01.1.pdf
e0571529641f83a364bcf25b44a796ff
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wagner, Henry Wolfe
H W Wagner
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. Two oral history interviews with Sergeant Henry Wolfe Wagner (1923 - 2020, 1604744 Royal Air Force), his memoirs, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a navigator with 51 Squadron from RAF Snaith and became a prisoner of war. He was demobbed in 1946 and returned to education where he remained until his retirement.
The collection was catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Wagner, HW
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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[front cover]
“…. we need someone with integrity, distinction and honour …
We need someone like H W Wagner”
[/front cover]
[page break]
Extract from “Those Who Fall”, by John Muirhead, a Flying Fortress pilot. Published b Transworld Publishers Ltd., 61-63 Uxbridge Road, London W5 5SA.
“Everything happened that I have said happened, but it’s memory now, the shadow of things. The truth lives in its own time, recall is not the reality of the past. When friends depart, one remembers them but they are changed; we hold only the fragment of them that touched us and our idea of them, which is now a part of us. Their reality is gone, intact but irretrievable, in another place through which we passed and can never enter again. I cannot go back nor can I bring them to me; so I must pursue the shadows to some middle ground, for I am strangely bound to all that happened then.”
[page break]
2
[centred] Your life is waiting for you, H W Wagner. [/centred]
[centred and underlined] CARPE DIEM. [/centred and underlined]
The title is, of course, from the Latin poet Horace, of if you prefer his full name, Quintus Horatius Flacus [sic], in his book of Odes, and I will translate it for those of you who have not had the benefit of a classical education. It means “Catch hold of the day”, with the implication “and squeeze every drop of value you can out of it.” The quotation continues Quam minimum credula postero (trusting[?] the next day as little as possible) – because it might never come. While on the subject of Horace, another quotation of his seems to me to be suitable, although you may well not agree, except possibly insofar as it applies to your good self – Integer vitae scelerisque purus (a man of upright life and pure from guilt.)
Having been always interested in flying, it seems to me that life is like a take-off, circuit and landing, and I have divided this account accordingly.
[underlined] UPWIND LEG [/underlined]
The upwind leg has two parts – rolling along the runway to reach flying speed, then climbing to circuit height.
[underlined] Take-off. [/underlined]
[photograph of two young children with their mother]
I was born on 24 March 1923. In the photograph, I am the little chap in the middle. My mother on the left, of course, and my elder brother John on the right. There were destined to be two other
[page break]
3
brothers after me, Richard and Brian. Richard was only a year younger than me, and due mainly to the similarity in our ages he was the one who was always closest to me, although I never had anything against the others.
[newspaper cutting]
[centred and underlined] Henry Stanhope [centred and underlined]
[centred] Henry the Seventh hits the charts [/centred]
One of the more engaging trends last year was the elevation of “Henry” to the top ten of first names, as disclosed by Mrs Margaret Brown and Mr Thomas Brown in The Times last week. It now occupies seventh place, enjoying – without the benefit of royal patronage – its most significant renaissance since the early Tudors.
To the 47 boys whose parents proclaimed their choice in the columns of this newspaper, I say “Welcome” – before adding a short introduction to the life that lies ahead of them. They should not be deceived for instance by those dictionaries of surnames which one thumbs through in W. H. Smith’s but never actually buys. These will tell you that it means “head of the house” and no doubt to the Plantaganet kings it seemed peculiarly apposite.
“Henry!” to the modern cartoonist, however, is a little man with a toothbrush moustache and half-moon glasses, washing up in a frilly apron while his virago of a wife slumbers next door in their surburban sitting room. The best portrait to be hoped for is that of an elderly Tory in hairy tweeds unloading his Scotch in the gunroom while his equally hairy wife is bullying the vicar at the village fete. The image is rarely swinging.
Nor is it a name which lends itself to some comfortable sobriquet or short-form – which, of course, is one reason why mothers like it. At school they solved it by calling me Stanhope, at college by switching to “H”. During National Service, fellow gunners, nonplussed by having a Henry in their midst toyed with “Harry” but settled for “Stan”, which struck a more agreeably percussive note in the barrack room. My first editor, on being introduced, scratched his head doubtfully and said he had a cocker spaniel called Henry. “What should we actually call you?” he asked.
At school I would gladly have swopped the dynamo on my bike for a name like Bob, or Bill or – as it was in Wales, Glyn, Gwyn, Bryn or even Geraint. Boys see safety in numbers and being called Henry was only one up on being Christopher Robin. Survival had to be fought for.
It is however a name one grows into and, in middle age, can offer some interesting advantages. It is, for instance, not easily forgotten and one which acquires a life of its own. Who would think of referring to Irving, Cooper, Kelly, Jackson, Kissinger or the fictitious Higgins (“Just you wait, ‘enry ‘iggins”) without their given name (“Christian” now being considered ethnically discriminatory)? An invisible hyphen welds them together like bacon and eggs.
There are also, as yet anyway, not enough of us in the English-speaking world to cause confusion. Having said that, it is arguable that when two Henrys do appear in the same office, battalion or school, the mix-ups are almost embarrassing.
They can also at times be quite flattering. In the elitist circles of East Coast America in the 1970s, to be called Henry was almost a passport to any dinner party in town. “There’s no disputing that Henry has a really first-class mind”, I once heard a Harvard professor say, unaware of the warm glow of pleasure he was causing six feet behind during that brief moment of self-delusion. I have never been confused with Henry Cooper, but that is perhaps because he is really called ‘Enery – though I would never do so to his face.
My “hooray!” for the 1982 Henrys is not therefore unmuted. Our image needs polishing. When someone calls “Henry” I still want to turn round – not just carry on walking like the Toms, Dicks and Harrys (no doubt corruptions of the original) who can always assume that it’s not meant for them. Back to the sink ….
[/newspaper cutting]
My mother and father were both Irish, which of course makes me Irish by birth, although later in life I took out naturalisation papers to become a
[page break]
4
British citizen. Of my father’s family I know nothing, but my mother came from an upper-class county family, the Strongs. I still have a salver with their family crest in the centre. We lived in a big house on the shores of a bay at Strand Hill, in County Sligo. The only person I can remember there is my grandfather, a grand old man with a white spade-shaped beard, who smoked a pipe. There being no such things as pipe-cleaners in those days, Richard and I brought in feathers for him, saying: “A fedder for Pa’s pike.” Regrettably, I knew little of my father; it was obviously not a happy marriage, and my parents separated when I was above five. I do know, however, that he was a man of many parts – he had a degree in theology from Trinity College, Dublin, a qualification in dentistry, and he was a well-known sporting shot, contributing to a magazine called The Shooting Times and British Sportsman. For my mother’s part, she was a keen hockey player, and also an Irish county golfer.
When I was three or so, we moved to England, for reasons unknown to me, and our first home was in a village called Sonning Common, near Reading. We lived in quite a large house called The Laurels, with a large orchard (apples, pears, plums, greengages, damsons and cherries) and a one-acre field at the back. There being no refuse-collection in those days, there was a big hole at the far end of the orchard, known as the ashpit. When it was full, another one had to be dug. In the field, my father had a clay-pigeon trap, and used to gather cronies there from time to time for shooting parties. He had a gun-room in the house, with possibly about thirty guns of various calibres, and several hundred cartridges, and Richard and I used to go in there and play – what madness to let two little boys loose among so much lethal apparatus. An old chap used to come and cut the front lawn with a scythe, and one day we threw cartridges at him out of the window, which pleased him not at all. Another room was the dental surgery, which terrified us when we were called in for treatment, as dental surgery was in its infancy in those days, and equipment was primitive. You could be sure of a painful session there. I remember seeing in one of the magazines a picture of
[page break]
5
a set of false teeth, and I thought to myself: “They don't just take out the teeth, they take out the whole top of your mouth as well.”
Two years after arriving there, my father left, and I never saw him again. My mother was left to bring up four boys on her own, with occasional financial contributions from my father, and a hard time she had of it. Heating was by means of coal fires, cooking was done on an old-fashioned range, lighting was an Aladdin pressure lamp and candles, and there was no hot water. Monday was washing-day, using a coal-fired copper, so Monday dinner was always cold meat, the remnants of the Sunday joint. Other days, it might be stew, hash, or corned beef, with rice or macaroni pudding. Breakfasts were always porridge, and tea was bread and jam, with cake on Sundays. Shopping was done at Plumb’s stores, down the road, where there were no packed foods – everything was weighed up and served separately, and there were chairs for people to sit down and gossip to the shopkeeper while the order was being made up. Biscuits came out of big tins with glass tops, butter was cut off the block. A jug was left out for Mr. Saunders, the milkman, who came round with a horse and trap and carried a small pail of milk up to the door, replenished from a big churn in the trap. An old biddy, Mrs. McCallum used to deliver paraffin from cans hanging on the handlebars of her bicycle. Sweets were a rarity, but now and again we got a halfpenny to spend, with which we usually bought a Chicago Bar, a bar of evil-looking (and tasting) toffee, but which had the merit of being very long-lasting.
One Christmas, Richard and I got a small bicycle each, known as fairy-cycles, with hard tyres, and we could safely be released to ride round the village, there being hardly any traffic on the roads. Once a week, we used to go into Reading by Thames Valley bus, for bigger shopping, and used to finish up with tea and toast in the Lyons Corner Shop.
Such was the way of life in those days, and although my mother had plenty of worries, it was no hardship to us boys. We went to the village school, presided over by “Gaffer” Forder. I did two years
[page break]
6
there, the first year in Miss Cobb’s class, and the second year moved up with the dreaded Mrs. Clayton. While at Sonning Common school, I made the acquaintance of Geoffrey Dolphin, who remained a lifelong friend.
At the age of seven, then, we moved to Henley-on-Thames, to quite a nice house in a quiet road, St. Mark’s Road. This even had the benefit of gas-lighting downstairs, otherwise illumination was still by candle. There was a large walnut – tree in the back garden, which we were always climbing. John was sent off as a boarder to the Bluecoat School in Reading, and Richard and I started attending the National School, a grim fortress-like granite building very different from a village school and peopled by hard urban nuts of a type that we were not accustomed to, so we quite often had a rough time. The Avery’s, Blackall’s and the Fowler’s come to mind. Richard went into Mrs. Plumb’s class, I being a year older went into Mrs. Piper’s class, and she was much addicted to frequent use of the cane. In fact, I got it on my first day there. Lessons in those days tended to be of the repetitive rather than the interesting variety; this particular geography lesson consisted of repeating the names of mountains in Britain, from north to south. Of course, the names meant nothing to me, nor did they, I suppose, to anyone else in the class, but those who could not remember them were lined up in front and received a stroke of the cane. The most feared teacher in the school was Mr. Ackroyd, who was even more liberal than Mrs. Piper in his dispensation of correction; at the end of “playtime”, he blew a whistle, whereupon everyone stood stock-still. At a second blast, everyone moved to a place where their number of class was painted on the playground. Then he would shout “Classed, right and left turn”, and you turned in the direction of your classroom. One day, I turned in the wrong direction, and received a stroke of the cane for “disobedience”. Physical education consisted of what was known as “drill”, and this meant standing in lines on the playground and obeying order such as “touching the toes”, “clapping hands above the head”, and “running on the spot”. What strides have been made since, in the way of gymnastic exercises with proper equipment!
After two years at the National School, when I was nine, the
[page break]
7
educational system was reorganised, and Richard and I went to a junior school, called Trinity School, run under the auspices of Trinity Church, where I was married twenty-seven years later. This was presided over by Mrs. Billingham, known as Governess, and under whose instruction I first started taking a real interest in learning. At the age of eleven, there was an examination to determine who would go to Henley Grammar School and who would return to the dreaded National School, and I was relieved to be one of the successful 23%. By this time, we had moved to a council house in Western Avenue, the family circumstances having become even more [indecipherable word]. It must have been something of a strain for my mother, having to buy uniform, games kit and P.W. kit, but there was a small grant from the Grammar School foundation Trust to help those who found the going difficult. At Trinity School, I became friends with Jim Clark, who is still a good friend, and especially of Jim Davies, who lived just down the road from us. Jim Davies was a Fleet Air Arm fighter pilot, on Corsairs, during the war. Afterwards, he took a degree in law at Oxford, then worked in the Attorney-General’s office. He was killed in a Douglas DC 10 crash after taking off from Paris; a baggage-door had not been properly fastened, and it opened in flight. The ensuing decompression buckled the floor, which jammed the controls, and all aboard were killed.
This concludes the runway section, then. The aircraft is nicely on the move, has flying speed, and the way ahead, barring accidents, is clear, and there is plenty of room for manoeuvre. The next section of the circuit is the climb-out, gaining height, looking round and feeling the air.
[underlined] Climb-out. [/underlined]
The climb-out begins with the commencement of education proper at Henley Grammar School. I arrived there in September 1934, with Jim Clark. Education was undertaken seriously before the war – you had to work hard in order to qualify for a good job. I had no idea what sort of work I would eventually do, there being no careers guidance in those days. But part from
[page break]
8
the underlying seriousness, there was no worry attached to the whole business, and it was an enjoyable time. This is the little lad who started at the Grammar School at the age of eleven.
[photograph]
In the 1930’s, competitiveness was encouraged in both sport and games. Nowadays, it is actively discouraged – no sense of inferiority must be allowed to develop, even among those who know they are inferior. Any attempt to be better than the rest is frowned upon, because it would tend towards divisiveness and the creation of an elite, so everyone must conform to a lower level. But in those times, prizes were awarded for academic achievement and medals and cups given for sporting excellence – there was every encouragement to do better. So everyone worked to the best of their ability, and I do not think anyone suffered for that reason.
About the time that I started at the Grammar School, I took my first tentative steps in the world of golf. Richard was the moving spirit behind this, and we bought ourselves a putter each from
[page break]
9
Woolworths, price six denarii, and we used to take them up to a field about a mile away and just hack about. Jim Davies joined us too, and nearly all our spare time was spent in that pursuit. Balls were obtained by looking for them in hedges adjoining the gold course. Finding more than enough for our needs, we thought about how we might turn them to profit. We used to make the occasional cycle journey into Reading and sell them at a sports shop. A dozen would bring in three shillings or so (about 15 pence in modern money); later, we developed contacts among local golfers, notably Tom Luker and Bert Butler, which saved the trip to Reading. Most of the money was saved with the intention of buying a bag of clubs each, but 3d. a week was spent on the Saturday afternoon visit to the cinema and 1d. on sweets. When enough money was saved, we went into Reading and went round the Junk-shops, obtaining a bag each (and scruffy old things they were), and a motley selection of old rusty wooden-shafted clubs. And so we were in business. There was no way of joining Henley Gold Club, golf being the preserve of the upper crust, but there was a nine-hole course on a public common at Peppard, some four miles distant, where one could play for 10/6d. a year. We cycled there whenever time and weather permitted, clubs over the shoulder, sandwiches in saddle-bags. Jim Davis was with us in this venture, and you couldn’t have found a happier lot, day in, day out, through holidays. Through a good deal of my life, I have had enormous pleasure from golf, and met so many friends. Golf is a great leveller, and when a man is on the course, his wealth and social status matter not a scrap. What is important is his attitude to the game. A young American golfer of great promise, Tony Lema, who was regrettably killed in a light aeroplane crash on his way to a tournament, wrote in his book “Champagne Golf” – “Golf is the one game that really gives a man the opportunity to play the gentleman.” One does occasionally come across the other sort on a golf course, but they are not true golfers, and may
[page break]
10
be disregarded.
Another activity which took up some of our time, mainly in summer, was kite-flying. The materials were inexpensive, as we made our own. My mother would cut up old curtains into large octagons, about two feet across, hem them, and stitch a pocket in each corner. All that was needed was 3d ball of string and a fishing - net. Fishing net? Yes. The net itself was discarded, the bamboo split down the middle and used to make four struts. Many an afternoon we spent sitting on the grass gazing up at the kites and giving an occasional twitch on the string. Threepenny gliders, launched by catapult, also provided a lot of entertainment while the kite string was tied to a fence.
Next - door to Jim Davies lived a young lad with the reputation of being something of a crazy inventor. His name was Reggie Cripps. One scheme he thought up was that if old armchair springs were attached to the bottom of an orange-box, it would, if dropped from a few feet with him aboard, bounce ever higher and higher. Where he thought it would all end I don’t know. A preliminary trial resulted in a dull thud. He suggested attaching a multiplicity of springs and dropping him from the roof of his shed, but we declined to participate. Another idea was that he should jump out of his bedroom window, using his mother’s umbrellas as a parachute, but his mother enters a firm nolle prosequi.
Throughout my time at the Grammar School, staff wore academic gowns, which was a novelty for me. In my first year, I made the acquaintance of Mr. Clifford, who taught me my first words of French. Boys sat on one side of the classroom, girls on the other. Next to me sat Anthony Griffiths, son of the local Baptist minister. I met him again in May 1945, in Germany. Part of the camp I was in was being moved by train, and the train was in sidings at Luckenwalde station. Walking along beside the track, I saw an officer who looked familiar, and asked if his name was Griffiths. He had been a Spitfire pilot, and was shot down on a sweep over France. Also in the same class was Dougie Blows. We used to stay behind after school, until quite late, playing Fives, and indulging in practical jokes with bicycles in the sheds. One
[page break]
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trick was to slacken off the nut, turn the saddle round and tighten the nut again. Another was to suspend bicycles up the trees, another to weave thin wire in and out of the links of the chain. A further member of the class was Nelson Swinney, who had the enviable reputation of being the only boy able to spit over the fives-court wall. In this class too I renewed the acquaintance of Geoff Dolphin, and we remained together throughout our Grammar School career.
Early on, I was given the nickname Otto, which remained with me while I was at school.
At the end of the first year, I was presented with the Form Prize, a copy of “Captains Courageous”, which I still have.
Physical education was in the hands of Mr. Clifford, and although in the gymnasium where there was some apparatus, it was not very imaginative. Sport was rugby football, which I considered a rough game and to be avoided if possible, if not possible, keep as far from the ball as you could - if caught in possession of the ball, you were likely to be done over. This attitude persisted for a couple of years, then I did get caught in possession of the ball and realised that the only thing to do was to make a run for it. Having got away with it unscathed once, I did not mind so much having a go a second time, and gradually began to enjoy the rough and tumble of the game. So much so that for my last three years at school I was a regular member of the First XV, and received rugby colours. This entitled one to wear a special cap, dark blue velvet with gold piping and tassel, when going to play in matches. I played rugby for many years thereafter, and derived as much enjoyment from it as I did from golf. I still enjoy seeing a good rugby match on television. Summer sports were cricket and tennis, but I never made much of these. I liked watching cricket, and found my niche when I was appointed first-team scorer.
In the second year, the study of Latin was introduced, taught by the somewhat austere Mr. “Fuzzy” Phillips, and I soon realised that the languages were my strong point, not the sciences. I found science interesting but did not excel at it. Mathematics I found
[page break]
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very difficult, and spent many hours poring over problems on the nights when there was Maths homework. I used to retreat to the front room to do my two hours or so of homework in the evenings, illumination was provided by a guttering candle, as it was in all the bedrooms - there was only gaslight in the dining room, and that was none too brilliant. There was no temptation to skimp homework, as there was no television or any other distraction.
And so the years passed until I entered the Fifth Form, the year of the school certificate. To pass this, to get a certificate at all, one had to pass in a certain range of subjects - English language and maths were obligatory, also a language, then a choice of history or geography, then a practical subject, where I just scraped a pass in art, having minimal ability in that subject. If you did not get a School Certificate, you stayed in the Fifth Form for another year to have another rack at it. If you passed, you moved into the Sixth Form for a two-year course leading to the Higher School Certificate. The work was of a different dimension altogether, far more advanced. To get a certificate, you had to pass in two subjects at Main level and two at Subsidiary level. I took English and French at Main level, and Geography and Latin at Subsidiary level. At least, that was my intention, but the Headmaster, “Sammy” Barnes enquired why I was not also taking mathematics, having passed therein in School Certificate. “I’m no good at maths, sir”, I said. “Wagner, you’re taking maths,” he said. “Yes sir”, I replied, and I was unwillingly plunged into the calculus, co-ordinate geometry, the binomial theorem, and the like. English was in the hands of Miss Smith, a lively young thing; French was taught by the deputy head, Miss “Misery” Hunter, Latin by Mr. Darling, who also took P.E., maths by Mr. Potter, and Geography by Mr. Bryant, who was later killed in the war. I passed in all these subjects, which qualified me for University entrance.
At the beginning of the Lower Sixth year, I was made a prefect, and a year later captain of Periam House. Meanwhile, the
[page break]
13
golf had gone on pace. We played at Peppard until the end of 1937, with the occasional day on Henley golf course when we had 2:6d to spare (12 1/2 pence in modern parlance.) We knocked up the Henley professional, Bill Pedler, at 8 a.m. to pay the green fee (which pleased him not at all), played one round, then another half a round, had the sandwiches which we brought with us, finished that round, played another round, went home for tea, and played another round in the evening - 72 holes in one day - good value for 12 1/2 pence. At the beginning of 1938, we enquired about joining the junior section of the club, but this was beyond our means. However, they would admit us to the Artisan section for £1, which we gratefully accepted. A full 18-hole golf course and no more bike-rides over to Peppard. And we made good use of the course, being on it at every possible opportunity.
September 1939 and the war came. It was not unexpected, but to us boys it did not mean a great deal. We expected it to be over quite quickly, never dreaming that we would become embroiled in it ourselves in the fulness of time. Preparations had been going on for some time in the past - gas-masks had been issued, evacuees came from London (and to our horror stooped so low as to dig in the bunkers on the golf course as if they were on the beach.) This was the beginning of my second year in the Sixth Form, working for the Higher School Certificate. To pass this you had to get six units (two for a subject at Ordinary level, one for a subject at Subsidiary level, get them any way you liked.) I took an extra one, Mathematics, at the instigation of the Headmaster (I see I got this slightly wrong on the previous page, but now have the certificate for your kindly perusal.) Studies were somewhat interrupted by the fact that we had to share our school premises with a school evacuated from London, Archbishop Tennyson’s School. We worked in the mornings, they had the place in the afternoons, leaving me free in the afternoons to sneak off occasionally for a game of golf. Also, Richard and I bought a folding two-seater canoe, on instalments, paid for with money we earned finding golf-balls, and we often
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took it out on the Thames when weather permitted.
To go back to the day war was declared, Sunday 3 September. We listened to the sad announcement by the Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, on the radio (or wireless, as it was called then), at 11 a.m. Shortly afterwards, the air-raid sirens sounded, and gas-masks were brought to the ready - nobody knew what to expect. It was a false alarm though, and soon afterwards we settled down for our Sunday dinner. Then Richard and I set off over the golf-course. It was completely deserted except for us two. At one tee, adjoining the road, we were taken to task and heartily condemned by a passer-by for indulging in a frivolous pursuit at a time of national catastrophe, but it is difficult to see how we could have helped by staying at home. With the departure into the Services of most of the greenkeepers, labour was short, and Richard and I volunteered to go over on Fridays and mow a few of the greens for week-end play, as did other members of the Artisans. Big shots among the Artisans in those days were Bill Steptoe, Cyril Moss (handicap 1), Alf Smith, Percy Clayton, and George Piggott (“I can’t never ketch ‘old o them shots, I can’t, no, not them shots”, speaking of the lofted chip.) I understand his feelings, because I am not much of a dab at them either.
My elder brother, John, went into the Army, the rest of us were still at school. Rationing began to bite; breakfasts were usually scrambled dried egg, dinners either sausage-meat or fish, and tea was bread and jam. We each had our own pot of jam (1 lb. / month), and we would sit miserably at teatime wondering whether or not to have another slice and keeping an eye on the level in other people’s pots. There was also some very dubious meat or fish paste about.
And so we made our way into 1940 and the end of my school career. I had by this time made up my mind to go to University and subsequently into teaching. There was no careers guidance in those times - you had to make up your own mind what you would like to do. I was accepted for Reading University, travelling in each day by bicycle (7 miles), and home in the evening, in all
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15
weathers. At this time I made the acquaintance of Ken Ablewhite, who had gone to the University the year before, and we used to do the journey together.
[page break]
[university shielf]
UNIVERSITY OF CAMBRIDGE
LOCAL EXAMINATIONS SYNDICATE
HIGHER SCHOOL CERTIFICATE
This is to certify that HENRY W WAGNER of Henley Grammar School
Passed the Higher School Certificate Examination in July 1940 having satisfied the general requirements of the examination and having reached the standards shown (Advanced, Ordinary, or Subsidiary) in the following five subjects:
French Ordinary
Geography Ordinary
English Subsidiary
Latin Subsidiary
Mathematics Subsidiary
Index number 570
Place of examination Henley
Date of birth 24 March 1923
[signature]
Vice-Chancellor
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION accept the examination as reaching the approved standard.
Signed on behalf of the Board of Education
[signature]
Assistant Secretary
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We used to leave home at 8 a.m. in order to arrive for the 9 o’clock lecture, work till 12.30, have lunch in the Buttery, work again in the afternoon (usually in the library, as there were no afternoon lectures), have tea in St. David’s Hall (tea, toast and jam, and a lardy cake), then work in the evening until about 8 o’clock. It called for a good deal of self-discipline – you could waste an awful lot of time if you were so minded. Geoff Dolphin, whom I have mentioned before, also joined us at the University. In the first year, I had to study four subjects, two of which would be subsequently dropped. I took French (Professor Dessignet[sic], Dr. Bowen, Miss Paton, Miss Dale), Latin (Mr. Cormack), Geography (Professor Miller and Miss Campbell) and Logic (Professor Hodges). This first year course was called Intermediate Arts. In the sporting line, I played rugby, and even did a bit of rowing.
In the summer of 1940, before going to the University, I worked on a farm with Ken Ablewhite. Labour was scarce, and farmers were glad of anyone who could help them out. The days were long and tiring, but the work was very satisfying, especially as there were a couple of lively land-girls working there as well – Pat Pepper (as hot as her name suggests), and Mary Kew. We indulged in turnip-hoeing, sheep-dipping, silage-making, and harvesting until it got too dark to work any more. Dick Green, the farmer, used to lend me a 12-bore when the corn was being cut, and I supplemented the meat-ration at home with quite a few rabbits.
At the University, the men all enrolled in the Officers’ Training Corps with a view to joining the Army. This was not at all to my liking, but I did it because everybody else did. Wednesday afternoons were given over to training, wearing Army uniform, and consisted of drill, weapon-training, tactical exercises, etc., under the supervision of Captain Gillett and Sgt. Major Warwick. After a few months, an Air Training Corps was started, and I thankfully transferred to that. Flying had always been a great interest of mine, and the A.T.C. was much more to my liking. The Commanding
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Officer was Professor Miller, with the rank of Squadron Leader, but he knew little about the Air Force. All the administration was done by a regular R.A.F. Officer, Flt. Lt. Jordan. He had been shot down in a Hurricane and was badly burned about the face. He was assisted by Sgt. Linton, a W/Op Air Gunner, who had been shot down in the desert and had walked back to our own lines. He mounted a Vickers Gas-operated machine-gun in the grounds, and always manned it when the sirens went, hoping for a crack at a low-flying German aircraft.
As I said, flying had always interested me, and I had my first flight five years before the war began. It was just a matter of good luck, as paying for a flight was obviously not on. Sir Alan Cobham’s air circus was due to come to Henley in 1934, and by way of publicity coupons were printed in the Henley Standard, the first to be drawn out to be awarded a free flight. I went round all the hours in the neighbourhood asking if I could have their coupons, and sent in a whole batch. One of them brought home the bacon. The flight was in an Armstrong-Whitworth biplane which seated about 12 people, and lasted for some 20 minutes, over and around Henley. The next flights were undertaken when I was in the University Air Squadron; Flt. Lt. Jordan used to put up a list in the week of those wanting to fly on Sunday afternoon. He allocated the flights as equally as possible. We flew in various 2-seater Miles aircraft from Woodley aerodrome.
After working at Dick Green’s farm in the summer of 1940, Ken Ablewhite and I bought a motorcycle each. I got a 150c.c. Royal Enfield two-stroke for £15 and Ken got a 150c.c. Excelsior for £17.10.0d. Neither of us had ever ridden a motorcycle before, so the dealer that we got them from took us into an alley that ran behind his yard and explained the process and let us have a go for a few minutes, then he turned us loose to ride them back to Henley, without any tax, insurance or driving licence. Now and again we used them to go in to the University, but not often, as there was not much petrol allowed on the ration. Before long,
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I changed my Royal Enfield for a 250c.c. O.K. Supreme, a 4-stroke, which was a great improvement.
[photograph of Henry]
Photograph taken for identification purposes on joining Reading University Air Squadron.
[photograph of Geoff Dolphin]
Re the photo of me taken for Air Squadron purposes:- a pupil at the Queen’s Girls’ School, Wisbech, saw it and said: “Cor, I wish I’d ‘a knowed you in them days, Mr Wagner.” I said: “What’s the matter with me now, then?”, and she said “Well, it aint the same, is it.” I signed, and said: “No”.
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[photograph] Family photograph taken in 1940. Me in the blazer, next to my brother John. Brian on the right and Richard on the left. [/photograph]
And so we move on into 1941, in the summer of which I took, and passed, the Intermediate Examination of Arts. I started keeping diaries about this time, and some of them are still to hand, so I have many reminders of details which I would otherwise have forgotten. I note, for instance, that the air-raid siren was a frequent occurrence, even in the daytime, but there was never anything near Henley. The nearest bombs, and they were only small ones, fell at Doble’s farm, Shiplake, about three miles away. In this second year at the University, I took up cross-country running, and was a regular member of the team. Matches took place on Saturday afternoons, usually with two other teams from other universities taking part. The distance was 8-9 miles, and I noted, on one occasion “going was easy at first, but rather hard after halfway, mainly over soaking boggy ploughed fields and wet muddy lanes.” The 1941 diary is remarkable to me now for the amount that I managed to cram into each day. While actually at the University, every possible moment was spent working, often until 9 p.m. or later. And yet I seemed to go to the cinema at least twice a week and play golf at least twice, with swimming canoeing and a multitude of other activities
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thrown in, particularly at week-ends and in the vacations. In the summer, I worked again with Ken Ablewhite on Dick Green’s farm.
In September, having passed the Intermediate Arts examination, I returned to the university for one more academic year, to take First Year Finals in the summer of 1942 – call-up into the Air Force was deferred until after that examination.
On 8 December 1941, the Japanese attacked the American fleet at Pearl Harbour, and thereafter a state of war existed between Japan on the one hand and America and Britain on the other.
After the Christmas term ended, I worked in the Post Office at Henley, sorting letters and parcels. Extra staff were always taken on in the run-up to Christmas, and the pay was very welcome.
In June 1942 I took First Year finals and reached an acceptable standard, studying French with subsidiary Latin. This left one more year to complete the degree course, but there I had to leave it. For me, that completed the upwind leg. The circuit had been planned out reasonably well and everything seemed to be in working order. I knew where I was going, barring accidents, attacks by Gremlins, and that sort of thing, but there was the matter of the war to be dealt with first, and this constituted for me the
[underlined] CROSSWIND LEG. [/underlined]
Towards the end of August 1942 (the month in which I got the only hole-in-one I have ever had, playing a friendly game on Henley Golf Course with one David Mitchell), my call-up papers arrived and I duly reported to the Aircrew Reception Centre (ACRC, known as Arsy-tarsy) at St. Johns Wood in London. After a medical along with other members of the University Air Squadron, we were moved to a big block of what were before the war luxury flats (although there was not much luxurious about them then) called Viceroy Court, at Regents Park, to await events. It was the normal practice for prospective aircrew to be sent to an Initial Training Wing (there was one at Ilfracombe), but since we had done our initial training in the University Air Squadron, we were spared that, and went to a holding unit at Brighton, billeted in the Metropole Hotel, right on the front,
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which had been taken over by the Air Force for the duration. While there, I had this photograph taken. They must have done a brisk trade at Empire Studies because all the Air Force personnel seemed to patronise them.
[photograph]
People say to me sometimes: “Why did you join up? You were of Irish nationality and therefore not under any obligation.” But I felt that this was now my country, and that the obligation did exist. Then they say: “Well, why volunteer for aircrew then?” But the adventure of flying always enticed me; I felt that that was a job I could do as well as the next man, and that therefore there was no excuse for chickening out. Admittedly, there was not much chance of coming safely out at the other end, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles.
After a fortnight or so, postings came through to various Grading Schools. These were elementary flying training schools where prospective pilots or navigators were given a 12-hour course on Tiger Moths. Most were hoping to be pilots, of course, but instructors decided on suitability. I went to Brough, near Hull, and came under the instruction of Flying Officer Rothbone (later killed when a pupil landed a Tiger Moth on top of the one he
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was taking off in.) I went solo after 9¾ hours, about the average time, and was graded as a pupil pilot.
From Brough, I went on leave, and then back to Brighton again, this time billeted in the Grand Hotel. The time there was spent in drill, P.T., signals, aircraft recognition, navigation, armament, and clay-pigeon shooting. After some three weeks there, we were warned for posting, and one night, left Brighton on a special train which drew out at 2.30 a.m., arriving at Heaton Park, Manchester, at 11 a.m. Heaton Park was where those on overseas posting awaited their draft to a ship, and was a miserable hanging-about restless sort of place. Manchester is a rainy place anyway, and this was in January 1943. It was usually fog-bound and gloomy, and I was in a billet in Salford, some miles from the camp, a damp dingy tenement. Thankfully, I was not there long before my draft came through, and proceeded by train to Blackpool. All those on draft were dispersed round boarding-houses with typical seaside landladies. Tropical kit was issued, so we knew we were off somewhere warm. Three kit-bags had to have numbers and names put on in Indian ink – ordinary, flying, and tropical. That evening, Lee was one of the first away for the evening’s drinking; Bassingthwaite never got away at all. The time at Blackpool was spent just hanging about waiting – attending lectures, drill, route marches, going to the cinema, and that sort of thing. Finally, after about three weeks, towards the end of February, orders came to move. We went by train to Liverpool, marched to the docks, and embarked on a troopship, the S.S. Strathmore, 23,000 tons, and got organised on board, initiated into the process of slinging hammocks. These were slung from bars in the ceiling, and were difficult to get into because they were inclined to throw you out again. Also, the bars were too close together, with the result that you head was looking directly across at your feet. I soon gave up hammock-slinging, and laid mine out on the floor, but I was on the lowest deck of all, below the waterline; one of the propeller shafts ran just under the floor and thumped – thumped away all night, so sleeping was not the rest it should have been. The next day, the ship set sail from the Mersey and headed out round the north of Ireland.
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The sea was green and rough; almost everyone was seasick, and the evening meal was tripe and onions swimming in milk. There were not many takers. Life on board was pretty leisurely – there were a few lectures, frequent action-stations practice, but most of the time was spent reading and talking, and just sitting in the sun as the weather got progressively hotter. The ship was not in convoy, but sailing alone with one destroyer escort. It went far out into the Atlantic, then turned east, and ten days later land was sighted, and we entered harbour at Freetown, where the heat was stifling. There were many other ships in the harbour. The destroyer released depth-charges outside the harbour, having presumably detected a submarine. Three days later, the ship put to sea again, and in another fortnight arrived in Durban, South Africa. We then went by train to the Imperial Forces Transhipment Camp at Clairwood, just outside Durban. South Africa was a new world to all of us, far removed from the austerity of England. There was no black-out, and the shops were full of things unobtainable at home. The first things I bought were a big slab of chocolate and a tin of sweetened condensed milk, both of which I consumed as soon as I got back to camp. I used to go to the cinema every day in Durban with Peter Taylor and Maurice Gregson, and often we went swimming. Only one other thing stands out in my mind about that time, which was an organised visit to the Lever Brothers soap factory. I have always enjoyed visits to factories – Huntley and Palmers biscuit factory in Reading, Fry’s chocolate factory in Bristol, the Tusker Brewery in Nairobi.
After some ten days at Durban, we entrained for a two-day journey up through the Drakensberg mountains to the high veldt, to get another holding unit at Nigel. This was on an aerodrome, on Advanced Flying Training School where pupil pilots trained on Oxfords. A week later, postings came through, and we were dispersed to various Elementary Flying Training Schools to train on Tiger Moths. I came under the instruction of a South Africa officer, Lt. Goddard, not the easiest of men to get on with and somewhat anti-British. Circuits and landings was the first part of the programme, for which
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We flew about 20 miles to Rietgat, [sic] a small auxiliary aerodrome, just a part of the Veldt fenced in by barbed wire. Apart from circuits, the flying was done from the main aerodrome at Kroonstad, Orange Free State. Eventually, I had a solo test with Lt. Hooper, and did two solo circuits, going on later to solo steep turns, spins and loops. Three thousand feet was the statutory minimum for loops, but I always went up to four, being a great believer in plenty of height. They always say that the two most useless things in flying are height above you and runway behind you.
When I had done 10 1/2 hours solo, an incident occurred with Lt. Goddard which put paid to my aspirations to becoming a pilot. We flew to Rietgat [sic] and carried out various exercises, then Lt. Goddard said: “Just do one solo circuit, Wagner, then we'll go back to Kroonstad. Don't take long over it, because I'll have another pupil waiting.” He took out his control-column, secured the straps, and off I went. As I said, it was a very small field, and as I came in over the wire, I could see I was too high, so I opened up and went round again. This time also I could see I was too high, and opened up again. I saw Lt. Goddard standing in one corner of the field waving his control-column in the air and obviously in a rage. The third time, I was on the high side again, but I thought to myself that I had to get down at all costs. The Tiger Moth ran and ran – having no brakes, I could not arrest its progress, and it stopped about two yards from the wire, too close to turn it under power. So I undid my straps, got out, caught it by the tail-skid, pulled it back a few yards, turned it, got back in, and taxied back to where Lt. Goddard was waiting. “Right, Wagner,” he said, “fly me back to Kroonstad and make a good job of it because it is the last time you'll be at the controls.” And regretfully that was the end of my pilot training. I was “washed out”, as the saying went, and was, of course, very disappointed. Within three days, I was on my way to Roberts Heights, Pretoria, where I was re-graded as a Navigator. The three weeks I spent there were just time-wasting, doing odd jobs and often going into Pretoria to the cinema, waiting for a vacancy at a Navigational Training School. Eventually, a posting
[picture of Tiger Moth “I could fly one of these before I could drive a car”.]
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came through to 43 Air School, East London, which was quite a long way off. The train journey was through some spectacular scenery, down through the mountains to the coast. This was an Initial Training School where the rudiments of navigation were taught. I was, in fact starting again from scratch. Here, I met Graham Walker, who had been at the University Air Squadron with me, and who had been graded as a navigator from the start, and we kept together. For the first three weeks, nothing much happened, and Graham and I spent most of our time in town, going to the cinema, or swimming in the Indian Ocean from Orient Beach. We did quite a lot of P.T., had a few rugby games and had a lot of rifle and ordinary drill. While doing rifle-drill one day, the Station Warrant Officer, W/O Barnett came out to watch. He was a big fat man with piggy little eyes, a most unpleasant character. Observing the manoeuvre “Put down-arms”, when the rifle had to be laid on the ground, he remarked: “you bloody lot remind me of a lot of Waafs getting down on a jerry”, and I thought to myself: “What a common man, what a low lad.” Eventually, the course proper started, with lectures on DR navigation, plotting, meteorology, armament, signals, radio-navigation, aircraft recognition, compasses, and astro-navigation. This was all very concentrated stuff, and lasted for ten weeks, ending with an examination.
At the end of the course, postings came through, and I went with two friends, Graham Walker and Dave Wright, on an overnight train journey down the coast to Port Alfred, a small town miles from anywhere. This was where the practical navigation was done, interspersed with lectures. We were billeted in tents. There was a beautiful beach, almost deserted, where huge rollers came in from the Indian Ocean, picked you up and tumbled you along through the surf. There were sharks outside the line of breakers, so you had to be wary about going any further out.
the Flying Training was done in Ansons, with South African Air Force pilots. Their Ansons did not have hydraulics on the undercarriage, and it had to be wound up by hand, which was an awful chore. All right letting it down though. On alternate flights,
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one was either first or second navigator; the first navigator was responsible for plotting, wind-finding, working out courses, ground-speed and time of arrival, while the second navigator did photography and obtained fixes and bearings using the Astro Compass (which was not a magnetic compass but more of a bearing-plate) – all very well in the clear daylight skies of South Africa, but not likely to be much use in Europe where the ground was mostly obscured by cloud and everything was blacked-out at night. Also the second navigator took sights on stars, using a sextant, but astro fixes were far from reliable. Sights had to be taken on two stars and the readings converted into position-lines, using the Air Almanac. It took about 20 minutes to get a fix plotted, by which time you were about 40 miles further on.
And so the course went on until the middle of December. There were written examinations in all subjects. The last flight was a long navigational exercise, from the eastern side of the country to the western, and was by way of being a celebration. Base – Uitenhage – out to sea – George – Oudtshoorn, - Youngsfield (just outside Capetown). We stayed two days at a hotel in Capetown, and were disappointed not to be able to go up Table Mountain, as the weather closed in. We flew back to Port Alfred, and that was the end of the course.
[Picture of The Lagoon, Port Alfred]
On 23 December 1943, the passing-out parade took place, and brevets were pinned on with all due formality.
[Navigators Brevet]
Sergeant’s stripes were sewn on later onto best blue, battle-dress and greatcoat. That evening, there was a flight dinner at the Bathurst Hotel in Port Alfred. The traditional services Christmas dinner took place on the 25th, all serving being done by the officers.
[Air School logo on menu]
43 AIR SCHOOL
PORT ALFRED, South Africa
Christmas, 1943
DINNER
Fried Stock Fish and Butter Sauce
Roast Turkey and Boiled Ham
Roast Potatoes
Boiled Potatoes
Green peas
Cauliflower and White Sauce
Christmas Pudding and Brandy Sauce
Fruit, Nuts, Sweets, Mince pies,
Beer
Toast: Absent Friends
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We left Port Alfred on Boxing Day, for the 2½ - day journey back to Clairwood Camp, Durban. There was the usual splitting-up of friends on posting, but by this time I was in company with Leslie Shawcross. This Shawcross had crashed on a low-level map-reading exercise, when the pilot flew too low and the aircraft skated across the countryside, so he had had a narrow escape, very nearly being yet another of the many thousands killed in training.
[photograph] ‘No. 5 Air Navigators Course’ [/photograph]
And so we move on into 1944. At Clairwood, we were members of the Sergeants’ Mess, and this was quite a luxurious place, with very good food and a bar. There was plenty of free time and no harassment, as we were just waiting for a ship back to England. We were not waiting long – on 6 January we embarked in Durban Harbour on the S.S. Arundel Castle, 19,000 tons. We were on an upper deck this time, sleeping in bunks instead of hammocks. Unfortunately for me, mine was the top of a stack of four, right under an emergency light which had to be left on all night and shone directly onto my face. Furthermore, a card-school gathered below and played all night, with frequent calls of “Twist”, “Bust”, “I’ll see you,” so sleep was intermittent. Life aboard was generally very leisurely, with the
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occasional gun-crew, look-out or messing duties, and most of the time was spent reading, talking or seeing cinema shows.
On 7 January, we were tugged out of Durban Harbour, and steamed around waiting for the convoy to assemble. On 12 January, we entered Mombasa Harbour; little did I know I would be there again 23 years later. We left that same day, headed out to sea and then turned north. On 17 January we entered harbour at Aden, left the next day and steamed into the Red Sea, and thence to the Gulf of Suez, where we anchored. Aircrew destined for the Middle East disembarked here, mostly South Africans.
A pilot, Flt. Sgt. Fillmore, lent me a book of Tennyson’s poems, which I enjoyed reading over and over again. My favourite was The Song of the Lotos-Eaters, and the most poignant is Crossing the Bar, which you will find at the end of this book. I have always liked reading poetry (proper poetry, that is, not what passes for poetry these days), and am quite happy reading again through old friends in An Anthology of Modern Verse. Think of all the philosophy of life wrapped up in this one:-
[centred and underlined] IF [/centred and underlined]
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream – and not make dreams your master;
If you can think – and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors[sic] just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
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Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with worn-out tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings – nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And – which is more – you’ll be a Man, my son!
Rudyard Kipling
Back to Port Suez – no, that wasn’t its name, it was Tewfik. Although the ship was anchored some two miles off-shore, an all pervading smell of burning tar and sulphur wafted out over us, its purpose being, so we were told, to counteract an outbreak of bubonic plague on shore. The ship steadily filled up with naval and R.A.F. personnel heading for home, and there was little room to move about. On 2 February, we entered the Suez Canal. About half-way along the Canal, it passes through the wide expanse of the Bitter Lakes, and it was the practice for north and south-bound convoys to pass each other at this point. There was a lot to be seen there – ex-Italian warships, submarines, flak-ships, army camps, gun-positions. All those aboard the troopship were able to indulge in the luxury of
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shouting abuse and obscenities at Military Police on guard at the gate of an army camp, about twenty yards away. The Canal is very narrow, and there was only about ten yards to spare on either side of the ship. At Port Said, after passage through the Canal, we took on oil and water from tankers, joined a convoy of four other troopships and three destroyers, and moved out into the Mediterranean. Torches and emergency rations were issued, as the northern coasts of the Med. were still in German hands and there was still enemy activity, although by this time the North African coast was in our hands. This coast was plainly visible to port, between Tobruk and Benghazi. Four days later, the coast of Sicily was sighted. The rest of the convoy went off to Italy, and the Arundel Castle was Stirling Castle entered harbour at Port Augusta. We left next day, joined a new convoy, and headed west, the next stop being at Algiers for one day. This was the last stop on the way home. We passed the lights of Tangier to port, went through the Straits of Gibraltar, round the north of Ireland and into the Mersey. Disembarked immediately, and proceeded by train to Harrogate. There was not much to be done there – kit inspection, medical, documentation – and at the end of February I went home to Henley on leave, for three weeks, returning to Harrogate thereafter.
After a few days at Harrogate, a posting came through to Whitley Bay, Northumberland. This was yet another holding unit. Aircrew were churned out from the training schools, then gradually moved up the line as vacancies occurred, heading inevitably for the squadrons – there was always an ample pool of trained men to draw upon. In Whitley Bay, we were billeted in ex seaside boarding houses, run by typical seaside landladies, and very sparsely furnished, food to match. There was much hanging about, parades, kit inspections, route marches, drill and lectures. On one occasion, even, I was detailed to dig the front garden of the boarding-house. I was not sorry to leave Whitley Bay.
The next posting was to an Advanced Flying Unit at West
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Freugh, near Stranraer, in Scotland. There was, of course, more waiting about while things got organised – lectures on the Browning gun, firing it on the range, dinghy drill, hydraulic systems of aircraft, flying control, night-vision, beacons and occults, radio procedures, astro, parachute drill, and “airmanship” (which covered just about everything). Here, I made the acquaintance of “Biff” Brewer, so-called because he was a keen golfer. Fortunately, the Sports Officer was also a keen golfer, and he often gathered together a few officionados and took us to Portpatrick Golf Club, where the professional had sets of clubs which he loaned out. It was a good course, along the cliff-tops, from where you could see Ireland across the water. There was a flying-boat base at Stranraer, and Sunderlands could be seen taking-off and alighting in the lough.
At West Freugh, these photographs were taken. They were intended to be handed to resistance groups in the event of being shot down, to aid in the preparation of false papers. These were known as [indecipherable word] photos.
[three facial photographs]
Flying training was done on Ansons on this course, an extension of the work done in South Africa, but under more difficult conditions. The weather was much worse, and on night-flying there were no lights to be seen, only the beacons and occults, and more use had to be made of radio bearings. The routes were generally N.W., over the Irish Sea, where there would be less traffic, a typical one being Base – Ayr - Rathlin Island (N. Ireland), - Dungannon – Peel (Isle of Man) – Base.
This course lasted six weeks or so, then the next posting was to an Operational Training Unit at Abingdon. There were talks
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on new aspects of navigation, such as navigating on the climb and descent, and on Gee, a radar device which enabled the navigator to get an instant and very accurate fix – no more need for getting position-lines and transferring them as necessary. There was much practice in plotting in the navigational trainer. There were also talks on the German Air Force, and other Intelligence matters, and on Escaping and Evasion.
At Abingdon, crewing-up took place. Twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty bomb-aimers, twenty wireless-operators and forty gunners were assembled in a hall and left to their own devices. It was up to each one to slot himself in, and in the end twenty crews emerged. My own crew consisted of :-
Warrant-officer Wilfred Bates – pilot (Newcastle)
Myself as navigator. (Henley-on -Thames)
Sgt. Leslie Roberts – bomb-aimer (Liverpool)
Sgt. Jack Jones – wireless-operator. (Lampeter, Wales)
Sgt. Thomas Worthington – mid-upper gunner. (Liverpool)
Sgt. Robert Thomas – rear-gunner. (Whitehaven)
There was no need for a Flight-engineer at this stage, as training was carried out on Armstrong – Whitworth Whitleys, which only had two engines. Later, on Heavy Conversion Unit, we were joined by Sgt. Eric Berry (Sale, Cheshire).
The Whitley was a heavy bomber in service at the beginning of the war, but since superseded. It was not a pleasant aircraft to fly in, being very cramped, cold, lumbering, and having no radar navigational equipment. Also it was very difficult to get out of in an emergency. The wing chord was very thick, the two wings being joined by a narrow tunnel across the fuselage, through which one had to crawl to reach the escape-hatch, encumbered by heavy flying-gear and a parachute-pack. It was engined by two Rolls-Royce Merlins. The Whitleys we trained on were tired and worn-out, and would not get above 12,000 feet.
As runways were being laid at Abingdon, we moved to Stanton Harcourt, a satellite for Abingdon, and flew from there.
[picture of Armstrong – Whitworth Whitley.]
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[photograph] Warrant-officer W.A. Bates. Pilot.
[photograph] Sgt. L.G. Roberts. Bomb-aimer.
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[photograph] Sgt. T.W. Worthington. Mid-upper gunner.
[photograph] Sgt. E. Berry. Flight-engineer.
The flights in the Whitley were, of course, longer than those in the Anson, a typical one being Stanton Harcourt, Newquay, Milford Haven, Stanton Harcourt, about 4 1/2 hours, including an hour or so on the bombing-range. One trip I have noted shows some of the difficulties that could be encountered : “Took off in fine weather 10.30, but ran into cloud half-way to Newquay. Started to descend, but the
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cloud got lower and thicker. Climbed to 12,000 feet, but icing started, so went down to 7,000 feet, still in cloud. Spotted a hole in the clouds, and went down through it to have a look. Identified position as Falmouth. Headed north, homed along the St. Eval beam, landed, and had dinner. Took off again 1500, and flew low along the coast, looking upwards at the cliffs of Hartland Point as we passed. Cut inland at Burnham and flew eastwards via Swindon through low cloud and bad weather, back to Stanton Harcourt.”
Apart from the long trips, there were many shorter ones, such as practice on the bombing-range and fighter affiliation, and quite a few navigational trips in Ansons while pilots were on familiarisation on the Whitleys.
The OTU course finished early in August; we returned to Abingdon, and a couple of days later went on leave. After leave, the next posting was to 4 Group Aircrew Training School, Acaster Malbis, near York. Being now in 4 Group meant that we would be operating on Halifaxes. Training School it might have been, but it was in fact yet another holding unit. Nevertheless, there were lectures on many diverse topics, such as broadcast wind velocities for bombing, pathfinder techniques, pyrotechnics, oscilloscopes, dinghy radios, hydraulic systems, German targets, flak, H2S, air-position indicator, homing on Gee, airborne lifeboat, - all good stuff.
The next move was to 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit, Marston Moor, near York. Here, we were introduced to the Handley Page Halifax, Mark III, on which we would be operating. Pilots had to learn the technique of flying a large four-engined aircraft, and the rest of the crew had to familiarise themselves with their positions in the aircraft and new equipment, as well as the general layout of the aircraft, such as flare-chutes, escape-hatches, oxygen equipment etc. The Halifax was engined with 4 Bristol Hercules sleeve-valve engines, and its all-up weight was some 30 tons. It did not quite match up to the Lancaster in performance and weight-lifting, but it was a good airman’s aircraft, solid, robust, and very dependable – it could take more knocking about than a Lancaster. It cruised at about 230 knots indicated airspeed when light, 210 when loaded. Fuel consumption was .9 air
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miles per gallon, and could carry about 5 tons of bombs, depending on the distance of the target. The bomb-load was usually mixed - perhaps one 2000 pounder, two thousand-pounders, four 500 pounders, and the rest made up of incendiaries, either 30-pounders or canisters of 4-pounders. The aim being to knock the target about and then set fire to it.
Here, we were joined by Sgt. Eri Berry, flight - engineer, and were now a complete crew of seven.
[photograph]
The first few Halifax flights were for W/O Bates to learn how to handle the Halifax and get used to doing so, including 3-engined flying, and for the bomb-aimer to drop practice-bombs on the range, so there was not much for me to do - just keep tabs on where we were. Even if lost, it was easy enough to get a Gee Fix and give a course for base. Air - to - air firing, for the benefit of the gunners, took place out to sea, beyond Flamborough Head. Flying was often cancelled through bad weather, or because of unserviceability of aircraft, since these were rather tired ex-operational aircraft, or ones
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which had been damaged by accidents. After about a fortnight of this sort of thing, the time came to venture further afield. The first attempt was a failure - Base S/C climbing to 16,00 feet - March - then the port inner engine packed up, so the propellor was feathered and we returned to base. It was another fortnight before we did a navigational trip again, the only flying in the meantime being night circuits. Much of the time in between was spent going into York to the pictures with one or more of the crew, or drinking in the Boot and Shoe or Spotted Ox at Tockwith, the nearest village.
A typical cross-country was Base - Darlington - Goole - Bury St. Edmunds - Market Harborough - Coventry - Nottingham - Base, but equipment of some sort often went wrong - one of the engines, Gee, H2S, DR compass - involving an early return. Sometimes we did not even get off the ground , as equipment proved unserviceable on being tested, or flying was cancelled at the last moment. If anything went wrong with the flying of the aircraft, there was a very efficient service known as Darkie (you couldn’t get away with that name nowadays.) The procedure was to call Darkie, and on enquiring the nature of the emergency , type of aircraft, whether heavy or light (i.e. bombs on or not), they would give a course to fly to the nearest aerodrome which could accept the aircraft, and monitor your progress to it. One such occasion reads “after 20 minutes, port inner packed up. Called Darkie, and landed 2125 at Bottesford, near Nottingham, a Lancaster Conversion Unit. Reported in at Flying Control, drew blankets, had supper, and turned in. Left 1340 the next day and flew back to base.”
At the end of the Heavy Conversion Unit course, the sausage-machine churned out the next, and final, posting, which was to 51 Squadron at Snaith, not far from Doncaster. We were now a fully trained crew, ready to be let loose on the Germans. All the crew were billeted together in a Nissen hut, which was shared with one other crew. Most of the daytime was spent in the Navigation Section or in the Bombing Section with Robbie, doing nothing in particular, playing draughts perhaps, or Chinese Checkers. The radio was always playing, a popular tune at that time being “Would you like to swing on a star, carry moonbeams home in a jar…..” I became heartily sick of that tune, and still dislike it even now. Another
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popular tune was “I hate to see that evening sun go down” (true enough), and, prophetically, “Don’t fence me in.”
The first few flights were familiarisation of various sorts - practice bombing, air-to-air firing, fighter affiliation. On the first flight, we did 3 circuits, then a tyre burst, so that was the end of that. On the first cross-country, which was up to Scotland, down to the Isle of Man and back to base, bad weather prevented us landing there, and we were diverted to Melbourne, returning to Snaith the next day. The next cross-country was Base - York - Belfast - Liverpool - Sheffield - Base, and was for practice in using the navigational aid H2S. If you will look back to the picture of the Halifax, you will see a bulge under the fuselage back towards the tail. This contained a rotating scanner. When radio waves were transmitted from it and hit something vertical, they were reflected back and showed as white patches on the appropriate receiver at the navigator’s position. Thus towns showed up extremely well and could be identified from a special map. Open ground showed up quite well; from water, there was no return. Controls on the set enabled the navigator to get his bearing and distance once the pinpoint was identified. Here is a photo of the H2S screen taken on a cross-country, while heading out over the Irish Sea. It says on the reverse “29.10.44 // 14,000 feet. 282˚ T. ISLE OF MAN. Range marker 10 miles. Sgt. Wagner.”
[photograph]
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The white patch towards the bottom is the northern tip of the Isle of Man. The white line going towards the left is the aircraft’s heading 282˚ True. The black line in the centre was over the northern tip of the Isle of Man when I took the bearing, which was shown on a rotating ring round the outside of the screen. The large circle was the range-marker, which I had set at 10 miles - 10 nautical miles, that is - we never worked in m.p.h. and statute miles, but knots and nautical miles.
Here is an example of a navigator’s log, and it gives some idea of how unremitting a navigator’s job was. An X means that the fix was obtained from H2S. The first fix is shown as X 173 YORK 13, which means that the aircraft was on a bearing of 173˚ from York, and 13 miles from the centre.
[missing photograph]
For the benefit of those of you who know nothing of the navigator’s craft, I will give a very brief description of the bare essentials. If you pointed a car at a destination on a limitless extent of tarmac, and proceeded at a set speed, you would arrive at that destination,
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and you would know how long the journey would take. Not so in an aircraft. The aircraft is suspended in a moving body of air, and where that air is going, the aircraft also goes, in the same direction and at the same speed, as when you have a goldfish in a bowl of water, so due allowance has to be made for wind speed and direction. “Well, once you know the wind speed and direction - - - - .” All very well, but first you have to find out what it is; then, it keeps changing, so you have to go on finding out what it is. Why does it keep changing? Imagine flying from A to B across an area of low pressure (see digram.) The wind-pattern in areas of low pressure is as shown by the arrows.
[diagram]
A comparison between where the aircraft actually is and where it would be if there was no wind gives the wind speed and direction, but it constantly needs updating.
Furthermore, the speed of the aircraft varied considerably through the air (and so over the ground), depending on height. Air becomes less dense the higher you, so there is less resistance to the aircraft flying through it. And density, of course, varies with the temperature - the warmer it is, the less dense, so temperature had to be taken into account as well. To complicate matters even further, aircraft on operations did not maintain a steady height for long; if they did, it would make matters easier for the Germans - they could inform their night-fighters of the height of the stream, and also fuse all their anti-aircraft shells for that height. So almost all navigating had
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to be done on the climb or descent. This meant that not only was the wind changing because of the particular weather pattern but was also different at different heights, as was the airspeed. So the navigator had to calculate and estimate what was likely to happen, without much hard information to go on.
Of course, on an operational sortie, the bomber-stream approached the target by a roundabout route, never heading towards it till the last few minutes, to keep the Germans guessing. Even then, it might divide say ten minutes before H-hour, and attack two different targets simultaneously, to divide the night-fighter force. There might be five or six different ‘legs’ to fly before reaching the target. Supposing the distance “out” was 600 miles, if you did not arrive within three minutes (early or late) of your allotted time, the Station Navigation Officer would want to know all about it. He would likewise be none too happy if at any time, “out” or “home”, you had strayed more than three miles off track. It was, of course, in your own interest to stay exactly on track – safety in numbers – night-fighters would prefer to catch solitary stragglers out of the main stream.
Pilots had a small route-map with the turning-points lettered, and I often got the query: “Pilot to navigator. Where are we, Wag?” and I would answer, for instance: “Leg[?] C to D, about 1/3 of the way along, on track, half a minute late.” It must have been monotonous for him sitting up there looking out into the darkness, turning as directed, but not having the faintest idea of how it was going or where we were. Although the bomber-stream contained several hundred aircraft, you never saw another one until in the vicinity of the target. You know all about navigation now, do you? Well done. As you appreciate, navigation was not on exact science, but more of an approximation. The art of the craft, if I may so put it, was to reduce the uncertainty and keep it within tolerable limits. Overleaf, you will find a letter taken from Picture Post, a popular magazine of the time, written by a member of a bomber crew, appreciating the navigator’s work.
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[newspaper cutting] The Key Man of a Bomber Crew
I am an American serving with the Royal Air Force, and have been serving since the outbreak of the war. Being a member of a bomber crew, and really knowing what goes on, I’m amazed at the way the British Press, including yourselves (“The Last Hour in a Lancaster,” May 15), refer to certain members of the crew as the “key man.” There is a “key man” in a bomber, but it isn’t the flight engineer, pilot, rear gunner, or wireless operator – it is the man whom Bomber Command refer to as the “key man”, namely, the navigator.
When we are flying over enemy territory, I often look at the other members of the crew (who, by comparison, are having an easy time), and then look at the navigator, who is working from take-off to landing. I realise then that it is from that map-strewn table that my destiny is controlled. The control column may be the nerve centre, but it is the navigation table that is the brain of an aircraft.
An Ally, R.A.F. Station, Somewhere in England. [/newspaper cutting]
To return to Smith, 16 November 1944. Woken 0740 by an airman and navigators were told to report to the Navigation Department for preliminary briefing for operations. This was so that navigators would know the target in advance (being warned to keep their mouths shut about it), and be able to get part of their work done beforehand. This consisted of marking turning-points, drawing in tracks on the charts, measuring the compass bearing of each and the distance, and seeing that everyone was in agreement. Then we had breakfast, at 0920, and went to the Briefing Room at 1000, with complete crews, for the main briefing, attended by the Commanding Officer (Wing-Commander Holford), Navigation Officer, Bombing Leader, Met. Officer, Intelligence Officer and Armament Officer. Afterwards everyone repaired[?] to the locker-room and put on flying gear. This consisted of inner quilted flying-suit, outer gaberdine suit, flying boots lined with lambswool, and parachute-harness. Contents of pockets were handed in, helmet, goggles and oxygen-mask picked up, as well as three pairs of gloves (woollen, silk, and leather gauntlets), microphone and intercomm[sic] lead. I carried the gloves only for use in emergency, in case of fire, and goggles for the same reason. If so desired, one could draw a revolver and six rounds, which I always did. You never knew when it might be needed; one of the great fears was coming down in the target area, where the natives would be vicious, and five rounds could be used on the Germans, the last one being kept for personal use. * So, with all this gear and parachute-pack and navigation bag containing all the necessary equipment (pencils, rubber, ruler, charts, Douglas protractor, dividers, Dalton computer), I repaired to the aircraft (C6A) together with the rest of the crew. We took off at 1250 and did a Radius
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Extract from “The Bomber Battle for Berlin”, by Air Commodore John Searby DSO DFC, published by Airlife Publishing Ltd, 101 Longden Road, Shrewsbury. [inserted in red] COPYRIGHT? [/inserted in red] [inserted] Applied for and granted. [/inserted]
Confidence in the skill of the navigator came only second to that placed in the captain: This aspect of the work of the crew has not always received the prominence it deserves, though somewhat earlier in this narrative I have made the statement that Bomber Command stood or fell by the quality of its navigators; and this is true. To be ‘lost’ over enemy territory was a frequent occurrence in the early days of the bomber offensive, as we have seen, but the consequences were nothing like so frightening as later on when the night sky was stiff with opposition. With a multiplicity of aids available after 1942 and in the context of a streamlined technique with Pathfinders to light the way there and back such incidents were few. However, on some occasions, when windspeed at altitude was unusually high, it could happen and could be damaging in the sense that security of the crew was impaired – seemingly – and those not in the know, such as the gunners, were entitled to feel anxious. We all took the navigator for granted – both captains and the remainder of the crew alike – he had the answers and was expected to produce them at the drop of a hat. A competent and confident navigator was a powerful factor for morale from first to last – courage, determination and the will to press on in the face of flak and fighters was one thing; but only the skill of the navigator could ensure that the effort was taken to the [indecipherable word] spot. The demands on his services were frequent, and we all heard with relief the familiar voice over the intercom on the way home: “Dead on track, Skipper – you should see the coastline in a few minutes – you can start letting down any time now.” A shaky navigator could be an uncomfortable thought in the minds of the rest of the crew – so much depended on him, and whatever the situation he must remain cool and capable of using his head quickly to calculate the new course to get us out of trouble. With punctured tanks, and the fuel running low, a single mistake on his
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part could result in a ‘ditching’ on a winter’s night with a rough sea below: likewise, he could run us over heavily massed defences such as the Ruhr perimeter by miscalculation. When the unexpected arose he was the first to be asked if we were still on the correct track and if not, then why not? Like the policeman – his lot was not a happy one.
And another reference later on:-
Navigators bore a heavy responsibility in getting aircraft to the target. Theirs was an unenviable task, subjected to a constant barrage of noise, working in the worst possible conditions, interrupted occasionally by enemy action and ‘nagged’ not infrequently by requests for information; they were expected to remain oblivious to all external alarms.[?]
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of action. This was necessary so that the whole squadron could set course over base at the same time. In order not to have a lot of aircraft milling about in the circuit at the same time, each navigator was given a track outward from base, towards the NW, each a few degrees different from one another so that aircraft coming back did not collide with any still outward bound. It was up to each navigator to determine his course to fly to maintain that track, and how long to fly it before turning to arrive over base at the appointed time of departure. In this case it was 1340, and the target was Julich, a small town not far from Aachen, only just inside Germany, being used as a supply and transit centre for the front-line forces, so we were not long over hostile territory. Bombing height was low, 10,000 feet. There was a little flak and no fighters. At the same time, a force of Lancasters was attacking Duren, a similar town a few miles to the south. It was an uneventful trip, but very effective, as this clipping from next day’s Daily Telegraph shows:-
[newspaper cutting] Two Rhine Towns Written Off
Photographs of Duren and Julich taken two days after they were attacked by very forces of R.A.F. bombers on November 16 show a close concentration of bomb craters almost without parallel in any previous attack by the R.A.F.
The centres of both these recently fortified towns, which were among the main defences of the Rhine, have been completely destroyed. [/newspaper cutting]
The following day, bombing photographs were on the board in the Intelligence Room. A camera was always operated a certain number of seconds after the bomb-release was pressed and took a photo of the point of impact. Our photo was in the centre, and enlarged, and showed the best strikes of the squadron, 200 yards from the centre of the town.
The second operation took place on 18 November, and was another daylight trip. The target was Munster. Navigators’ briefing was before breakfast, main briefing after. Took off 1245, radius of action, and set course 1325. Flak was light, no fighters were seen. Munster was covered by cloud. Concentration appeared poor on this attack. A word here about target-marking. There were two methods, Newhaven and Wanganui. Newhaven was used when the target was clear of cloud.
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Pathfinder “illuminators” would go in first and drop white flares, by whose light the second lot of pathfinders could identify the aiming-point. As near to this as possible they dropped the appropriate marker-flares. There were several different sorts – red shooting yellow stars, green shooting red stars etc. - and bomb-aimers knew which to look for. This did not give the Germans time to confuse the issue with their own flares some distance away. Most large German targets had decoy sites a few miles away where fires were often lit to simulate and attack, and these did a [sic] times attract a number of bombs. Wanganui marking was used when the target was obscured. Pathfinders dropped parachute flares upwind of the aiming-point, or rather upwind of the centre of the town. These burned for two minutes or so, and bomb-aimers aimed at them. This method was obviously not so precise as Newhaven, but it ensured a good spread of bombs, hopefully in the target area. Flares had to be continuously renewed throughout the attack. Always, some pathfinders were Wanganui-equipped, just in case the target could not be seen. So, after, at briefing, the instruction was: “Newhaven, with emergency Wanganui,” If all else failed, and nothing could be seen, bombs could be dropped by making use of the navigational device Gee. This was accurate to within 1/4 mile or so, and was therefore acceptable for this purpose. The bombsight was not used, and bombs were released on instructions from the navigator. Gee, however, could not be used on distant targets; it depended on signals sent out from England, and was susceptible to jamming. As one proceeded further away from the transmitting stations, the signals became weaker, and more difficult to identify, and on the cathode-ray tube gradually disappeared among all the clutter provided by the Germans. On some raids, a Master Bomber would orbit higher up, watching progress and giving instructions. There was a natural tendency for bomb-aimers to release the load a few seconds early, and this progression led to a “creep-back”, so that the Master Bomber had to advise a change of aiming-point. I heard once an instruction from
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him: “Apple Pie to main force. Bomb upwind edge of smoke.” And then later, when we were on our way home:” Well done, chaps. Now get off home and have your breakfast.”
On return from the Munster attack, Warrant Officer Bruce crashed in collision while waiting to land. After putting all the gear away, crews were de-briefed by specialist officers who took notes on how things had gone, and anything unusual that might have happened, and while this was going on, mugs of thick cocoa were provided, and tots of rum. I always took the rum neat, but there were some who tipped it into their cocoa, and almost unbelievably some who refused it altogether. After this second operation, we went on leave for ten days, during which Bob Thomas, our rear-gunner, got married.
Two days after return, operations were notified, the target being Essen, in the Ruhr. Navigators' briefing took place at 8 p.m., main briefing at 11. Took off 0226, radius of action, set course 0311. Usual route, base - Reading, - Beachy Head – over to France. Arrived over target 2 minutes late, bombed Wanganui flares 0539, arrived base 0823. De-briefing, breakfast, went to bed and slept till 5 o'clock. Heavy flak, some fighters in the target area, and this would be a suitable juncture to digress for a few words on flak. Intelligence knew where the heaviest concentrations of flak were, and aircraft were routed to avoid them, but there was no dodging it on the approach to, and over, the target. Bombing heights usually varied from 21,000 to 18,000 feet, different waves being allocated different heights. The Germans, knowing this, could only spread their shells about, barrage fashion, filling the sky with as much explosive as possible, in the hope of catching someone at random. The greatest concentrations were naturally north, west and south of the target, and it was not possible to avoid them. You could not go over the top because the aircraft, loaded, would not go high enough; you could not go round the outside because fighters lurked there, and anyway everybody would be coming in at different angles, causing collisions galore; you could not go underneath because of the risk of “friendly” bombs falling on you. So the only thing you could do was get your head down and run the gauntlet hell for leather through the middle, hoping that nothing
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had got your name on it. I only looked out twice over the target; it was like a fairground on Saturday night – target indicators, fires burning, photo flashes going off, anti-aircraft shells bursting, searchlights. After that, I just didn't want to know, preferring the scholarly calm of the “office.”
Here, I attach an account of the briefing for the Essen raid; you will see how much intricate organisation went into planning an attack. [account missing]
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Following the briefing and report on the operation, there are notes on some of the many devices used to outwit the Germans. References to “Window” may need some explanation. These were strips of metallised paper, cut to the wavelength on which German radar operated; each strip gave off briefly an echo on their cathode-ray tubes, the same as an aircraft did, with the result that their screens were hopelessly confused and it was impossible to pick out individual aircraft. It was first used in the fire-storm attacks on Hamburg, and vastly reduced flak casualties. There were two sorts, the broad and the narrow, the second working on night-fighter frequencies. Here is a strip of the narrow. [inserted]
The following night, there was an operation on Duisburg (docks and transport.) It was an uneventful trip. Took off 1640, radius of action, set course 1714. Base – Reading – Beachy Head – France – Duisburg. Surprisingly, flak negligible, no fighters. Bombed 2006 on Wanganui flares, arrived back at base 2340, supper, and into bed 0100.
The next operation was two nights later, on Hagen, in the Ruhr. Set course 1814. Over Reading, the port inner engine failed, so we went NE and jettisoned the bombs in the North Sea beyond Flamborough Head, and returned to base.
On Monday 4 December, there was a short local trip, down to Derby, followed by a blind bombing run on York, using H2S. A further word about H2S here. It was quite accurate on a fairly large target (provided it had been positively identified first – not much use though in a large conurbation such as the Ruhr.) The bombs were released on instructions from the navigator. I did not like using H2S for any purpose, and steered clear of it except in case of necessity. German fighters were known to home onto its transmissions, so I left it switched off as far as possible.
At this juncture, it would be appropriate to digress for a while (with your kind permission, of course), and describe briefly the modus operandi
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of the German night-fighter force. The ever-increasing activities of Bomber Command forced the Germans to withdraw large numbers of fighters from other fronts, so there were plenty of them about, mostly in Holland, northern France and western Germany. The single-engined types were Me 109’s and FW 190’s; the twin-engined were Me 110’s, Me 210’s, a small number of the later Me 410’s and most effective of all, Ju. 88’s which started out early in the war as bombers but were later converted largely to night-fighting. The single-engined aircraft operated on a system which the Germans called “Wild Boar”; they were vectored onto the bomber-stream and left to their own devices, to find and attack as best they could. The twin-engined operated on the “Tame Boar” system and came under close control from the ground; they were also equipped with radar, so that once they latched onto a target they were hard to shake off. The two standard methods of evasion were a violent “corkscrew” or a violent diving turn to port or starboard. Knowing that its presence had been detected, a fighter would often go and try its luck elsewhere, trying for a more unwary victim.
Now, if you had taken the trouble to read that list of various devices in the plastic envelope a couple of pages back, you would have noticed the one called Mandrel. Aircraft of 100 Group (Counter Measures), usually Stirlings (which were not fit for bomber operations because they could not get up very high), flew a “race-course” pattern out in the Channel, jamming the German Wurzburgs, which were long-range radar detectors. The Germans therefore knew that a raid was pending, but did not know where the main force would emerge from behind the screen. So they had two radio beacons a long way from each other, called Otto and Ida, and fighters orbited these beacons waiting for the main force to manifest itself, and when It did, half of them anyway were in the vicinity. It became the practice for the R.A.F. to insert a Mosquito among those orbiting these beacons, and he might be lucky enough to get a couple before they rumbled what was going on, and dispersed. At any rate, it made them nervous and threw them out of gear. This operation was known as a Mahmoud. There were many other operations designed to
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deceive and disrupt - a Mosquito would lurk near every fighter aerodrome, and catch fighters taking off or returning to refuel. “Spoof” raids would be taking place by smaller forces on widely-separated targets, or just several aircraft dropping target-indicators and then nothing else happened.
In the second half of 1944, the Germans hit upon the most effective way of dealing with a bomber once it was found and identified, so simple that it is amazing it was never thought of before, and it was a long time before anyone twigged what was happening. Early in the war, more aircraft, notably Wellingtons, had a turret underneath, but the fitting of these was discontinued, so there was no protection from below. Two tail-warning and downward-looking radars, Monica and Fishpond, were fitted, but these were removed when it was found that the Germans were homing onto them. Realising that they had a clear field from underneath, the German Fighter, invisible against the dark background below, would gradually increase its height until it was some 150 to 200 feet below the bomber, with the bomber silhouetted against the lighter sky above and its exhaust flames clearly visible. On the same course and at the same speed, the bomber was a sitting duck. German twin-engined fighters had a cannon sticking out through the roof, and the gunner could let rip with a no-deflection shot. They always aimed for the starboard wing-tanks, not the fuselage where there would be a risk of detonating explosives on board. Having thus set the aircraft on fire, they departed in reach of other prey. They carried no tracer among their ammunition, so that there was no give-away, and a bomber seemed to others round about just to catch fire for no apparent reason.
To return to Snaith. On Tuesday 5 December, the warning was given at 1130 for operations that night, the target being Soest, on the eastern edge of the Ruhr, which meant flying all the way round the industrial and heavily-defended complex. Main briefing 1415, out to aircraft, back for alterations to the flight plan, out to aircraft again, took off 1700 and set course 1800. Arrived over target 2 minutes late. Bombed on Gee, as the bombsight was unserviceable. Flak heavy over Hamm on the way in, light over the target. Arrived back at base 0200, a nine hour trip. Four
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aircraft went missing on this attack.
The following night, operations were laid on against Osnabruck. Took off 1600, set course 1625. Down to Reading at 2,000 feet, and saw Henley on the port side on the way. Passed over Reading bridge when workers were on their way home and the lights of vehicles were clearly visible. The sky was full of aircraft heading S.E. Climbed through icing cloud, proceeded on time over France and so to the target, one of the first aircraft in. Bombed on Gee. Out north over Holland, arriving back at base 2210, a six-hour trip. Flak very heavy over target. Eight aircraft missing from this attack.
The next day we did dinghy-drill in a reservoir, very cold, wet and muddy. On the 9th we did a practice flight, three simulated bombing runs of York, followed by practice-bombs on the range. On the 10th, roused at 0245 for operations, but cancellation came through after main briefing, the target being Bielefeld (presumably the viaduct.) This was laid on again next day, but cancelled again when everybody had got their flying-kit on. On the 12th, an operation was laid on against Essen. Flight-planning 1200, main briefing 1330. Took off 1600, set course 1620, bombed on Wanganui flares 1939, and arrived back at base 2200. Heavy flak in target area, as was to be expected over the Ruhr. Six aircraft failed to return. On the 15th, an operation was laid on against Dortmund, but later cancelled.
On the evening of the 17th December, briefing took place for an attack on Duisburg at 2230, then we had supper. Took off 0300 on the usual route via Reading and Beachy Head, and out over France. The weather deteriorated rapidly, wind velocity rose to over 100 knots, and the meteorological forecast was very wrong, so that the main force became widely scattered. Tried to make up a bit of time by cutting corners, but nevertheless arrived over the target seven minutes late. No marker flares were seen - with that wind velocity they would not have been much use, so we bombed using Gee. Soon after turning for home, we were set upon by a twin-engined fighter, which was driven off three times by our gunners. There followed a short interval when he seemed
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to have gone elsewhere, but such was not the case.
Here, I will digress once more (“what, again? Oh, all right then, if you must.”), and consider the possibility of surviving a tour of operations, I have already indicated that they were not very great. A tour consisted of 30 trips; average losses about 4%, therefore after 25 trips, a man was statistically dead, and therefore again the average man could expect to last 12 or 13. Some of course went on their first and some on their thirtieth, and obviously you needed a lot of luck on your side - it was not so much a matter of skill as of luck - a flak shell could catch any crew, no matter how skilful. As to the attitude of aircrews in general, there was a certain amount of fatalism involved, induced by the perithanatic situation in which they found themselves. I hope you will bear with me while I explain perithanatic for the benefit of lesser mortals than yourself. It comes, of course, from the Greek “peri” meaning ‘around’ (perimeter, peripatetic, periscope), and ‘thanatos’ meaning ‘death’ (euthanasia), and psychologists say that when in this situation there is an acceptance of what is going to happen and it ceases to worry. Personally, I never saw in others any evidence of fear - apprehension, yes, but not fear. When I say that the average man could expect to last 12 or 13 trips (i.e. rather less than half a tour,) this is borne out by the overall statistics of Bomber Command for the whole of the war - some 100,000 men flew with Bomber Command, and 57,000 were killed (i.e. rather more than half.) Today being Remembrance Sunday, I am reminded of a remark by Richard Dimbleby, commenting on the service at the Cenotaph: “Those that took the wings of the morning, or set their course by the stars into unimaginable dangers - - -.” The hazards were well enough known, though, “and their name was legion, for they were many.” - flak, fighters, mechanical malfunction, icing, cumulo - nimbus clouds and lightening, base fogged in on return, shortage of petrol, collision, fire, to name a few. In church the preacher, Canon [deleted] one indecipherable word [/deleted] [inserted] Hartley, [/inserted] an ex-prisoner of the Japanese, said: “I wonder how long Remembrance Day will go on. Until, I suppose, there is nobody left who remembers.”
To return to the situation in which we found ourselves. After
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three or four minutes there was a series of rapid thumps from the starboard wing, and almost immediately the Flight Engineer said: “Wilf, we’re on fire.” I looked back from my position down in the nose, and could see that there was a roaring mass of flame where the wing-root joined the fuselage and that the situation was obviously beyond control - burning petrol swilling in from the tanks, round the oxygen bottles, which would explode in due course. There was only one thing to do, which was to get out, and that right speedily, because one of two things was going to happen in a very short time - either the tanks would explode or the main-spar would melt and the wing would fall off. So even before the order came to abandon the aircraft, I was already buckling my parachute pack onto the harness. My seat, on springs, folded itself against the starboard wall when I stood up; I kicked away the legs of the navigation table, which folded itself down onto the port wall, leaving an open space on the floor with the escape-hatch in the middle. This was the way out for the three of us in the nose - myself, bomb-aimer and radio-operator. The mid-upper gunner would use the entrance - door half-way back down the fuselage, but the turret was difficult to get out of, and it took time. The rear-gunner would swivel his turret and drop out over the end, but again the turret was not easy to get out of, and furthermore his parachute pack was stored in the fuselage outside the turret. The pilot and flight-engineer would use whichever exit they could get at most quickly. I opened the hatch, raised it above the vertical, lifted it off its hinges, and dropped it through the hole. I then sat on the forward edge of the hatch and dropped through. A few words of explanation about how the parachute harness was designed. The pack was clipped onto two buckles on separate straps which came down from the shoulders and were attached to the main harness-straps by two pieces of string. The intention was that when the parachute opened, the string would snap, the pack would swing upwards, and you were left suspended from the shoulders. As I dropped through the hole, though, the pack
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caught on the rear edge, snapping the string, so that by the time I was in free fall, the pack was way up above my head, and to make matters worse the release-ring was facing backwards, so that I had to scrabble about to find the release-ring behind the back of my head. It was a relief, therefore, when there was a violent jerk as the parachute opened, and I was safely on the way down. The aircraft had been at a height of 14,000 feet, and the descent would take about 1/4 hour. After a few seconds, there was a whoomph as the tanks blew up, and I did not know whether anybody else had got clear. There were flashes of light and a rumbling in the distance, which I took to be thunder, but realised later were anti-aircraft fire, also, it was raining hard. As a factual observation, and with no intent to blow my own trumpet, there was no feeling of fear or panic in me - fear only comes when one has an alternative, and in this case there was not one, there was only one thing to do - rather a feeling of annoyance that when I got down I was going to be caught and stuck inside for the rest of the war. One of the advantages of being the navigator was that I had a pretty good idea of where we were; I knew we were over the British side of the lines, but knew also that there was a strong westerly wind which would probably carry me back inside Germany. If you take an average wind-speed on the way down of 80 m.p.h., I was going to drift some 20 miles. It was about 6.30 a.m., and still dark - perhaps just a hint of daylight - “dawn’s left hand was in the sky” (Omar Khayyam) - so I could not see where I was going to land, and in fact plunged down through branches of a tree and hit the ground. The advice was that when you landed, you were supposed to roll your parachute up and hide it. I realised that this was not on, as it was draped over the tree; furthermore, it was an apple - tree in the back garden of a house, and the curtains in one of the bedroom windows parted and a face peered out. So I took off my life - jacket, dumped it, and went down the side path and out of the front gate. Turning left, I heard the sound of marching feet approaching, so I turned right, and in a few minutes was out of the village and in open country. It was now getting light, and the thing to do was to find concealment wherein to [deleted] ly [/deleted] lie up for the day. Soon I found a wood of fir trees, and took
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refuge. First, judging by the sound of gunfire from the west, I knew I was in fact inside Germany. Then I examined the contents of my evasion-pack. This was a flattish plastic box, slightly curved to fit inside the thigh-pocket of a flying suit. It contained a map on silk, razor, rubber water-bottle with a packet of Halazone water-purifying tablets, energy tablets, Horlicks tablets, barley-sugar and chewing-gum, also a small compass of about 1” diameter. And there was a small slab of nut toffee.
My clothes were by this time wet through, and it was cold as well, so I did not have a comfortable day. Set off walking south, as soon as it was dark, keeping clear of the roads and going across country, over ditches full of water, through fences. The intention was to walk into France where I might make contact with the Resistance, and knowing the language would be a help. At daybreak, heavy rain came on again. Hid in a small fir plantation, after taking off wet flying-suit and boots, but could not sleep due to cold and general discomfort. Children with their mother and a couple of dogs passed within a few yards of me, but apparently did not see me. I ate three Horlicks tablets, one piece of toffee and a piece of barley-sugar, which I planned to be my ration for two weeks. It was a bad time of the year for evasion, there being nothing in the fields in the way of berries, fruit or vegetables. I drank from streams or troughs, using the water-bottle and purifying tablets. Set off again at dusk and walked till about 4 a.m., then came across a barn and stepped inside. As soon as it was properly light, I saw that there was a loft full of hay, with a ladder leading up to it, so I went up there, took off wet flying-suit and boots, stuffed them with hay, burrowed well down, and went to sleep. Not that stuffing them with hay did any good – they were still wet and cold when I put them on again. Pushed on again when it was dark, over the waterlogged fields. At daybreak I saw what appeared to be a dilapidated farmhouse, and I approached it with the intention of sleeping therein. It was occupied though; a middle-aged woman came out, and must have recognised me for
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what I was. Obviously, though, she was not in any position to cause trouble; I followed her inside and made sure there was nobody else in residence. She indicated I was to sit at the table, and gave me a few small apples, two slices of bread and two cups of coffee. It was by now broad daylight, so after leaving, there was not time to look for a good place of concealment[?]; the best I could do was a copse with wet brambles in it, so I hid up there for the day, although it was only half a mile or so from the farmhouse and one could expect the German woman to alert the authorities. There was not much sleep that day because I kept waking up with severe cramp, induced no doubt by wearing wet clothes for so long. I decided it was no use going on south, the distance being too great, so I turned back north towards Holland. The reasoning was this :-
[diagram]
There was no way of getting through the lines by going due west – anyway, the River Rhine was in the way, and that would be well-guarded. However, the British advance northwards into Holland had been very rapid, and looked like continuing, so I thought I would head NW round the corner in the lines and either hide up or maybe fall in with the Dutch resistance until the fighting moved on further north. An outside chance, but any chance is better than none.
That night, 21 December, it rained hard again. Towards dawn, I wandered about looking for somewhere dry to sleep. Stayed for a while in a shed beside the road, then it stopped raining so I carried on for another three miles. Found a stack of loose straw, so I dug some out and made a cubby-hole in the side, climbed in and went to
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sleep for the day. Got out at dark, put on flying suit and set out again. That night, it froze, and my flying-suit, being wet, froze stiff and the zips would not work so I could not get at my ration-pack. Suffered pains from cramp again. Walked all night, breaking ice on puddles to drink from. By this time, for various reasons all added together, I was getting light in the head and not thinking very clearly. I came to a railway embankment and climbed up. When I got onto the track, I thought: “This is stupid, all I have to do is walk along till I come to a station and get a train home.” So I turned left and walked along the track for about 20 minutes; seeing the lights of a station ahead, and hearing voices, brough me to my senses, so I got down off the track and pushed on. At daylight, bedded down in a partly-cut wood of fir trees. American bombers passed overhead. Pressed on again at night, and without thinking what I was doing, went through a village instead of skirting round it, as usual. At the far end, there was the click of a rifle-bolt, and a voice: “Halt, wer da?”, so I knew that was the end of my run. “Englische flieger,” I said, and the reply came: “Hande loch[?]”. I had run into a sentry-post. The soldier approached and indicated with his rifle that I should go into the post, which was a dug-out about ten feet square, entered by going down some steps. In it, there was a table, a chair, a bench, and it was heated by a wood-burning stove and lit by a pressure-lamp. The sentry was an oldish chap, well-meaning and obviously not one to make life difficult – he didn’t want any trouble, and I was in no state to give him any anyway. I patted the chest of my flying-suit and said: [five foreign words] and he indicated I should put it on the table, meanwhile keeping me closely covered with his rifle. He indicated also that anything else in my pockets should be put on the table. After that, the atmosphere became less strained, and he provided me with a bowl of soup. Then, seeing my clothes were wet, he told me to take them off and he hung them in front of the stove to dry, giving me his
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blanket to wrap round myself, and indicating that I should lie down on the bench and go to sleep. In the morning he permitted me to shave, using the razor from my evasion-pack, and then gave me a slice of bread and some of his meat-paste. As I said, not a bad old chap at all. By this time, his relief had arrived, and being apprised of the state of affairs, went to fetch another man. With this new man and the old original guard, I walked 8 km. to a fighter aerodrome at Alpen. This was on Christmas Eve. I was taken into the Officers Mess and subjected to all sorts of questions (but not of an operational nature) by those gathered therein. None, as it happened, could speak English, but one spoke French, and he translated for the rest. He asked how many times I had been over Germany, and when I said “eight”, he said that was nothing, he had been over London 66 times. They were interested in my flying gear, and also in the contents of my evasion pack. They gave me some of their dinner, which was a sort of spaghetti bolognese, but I was shunted aside into an alcove to eat it on my own. I was then handed over to their Service Police and made to sit on a stool in the middle of the room, watched over by a surly individual with a rifle. After several hours of this, my back ached, so I moved the stool against the wall, but an outburst and rifle-waving indicated I should stay where I was put. That night, I slept down in a warm cellar, locked in.
The next morning, that is on Christmas Day, I left Alpen with one guard; we walked five kilometres, then got a lift in a car to the nearest station and went by electric train to Dusseldorf. This was one of the R.A.F.’s main targets, and was much knocked about. On the platform I noticed a rat-faced little man going from person to person, talking to them and indicating me with a nod of the head. A few started drifting in my direction, and I didn’t like the look of things at all, but the guard saw what was happening as well and unshouldered his rifle, which caused them to lose interest. Bomber-crews were known throughout Germany as terrorflieger – (terror-flyers), which
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I used to think was unfair, as we were only going about our lawful business, and I don’t suppose German Airmen considered themselves as terrorflieger when they were bombing English towns. On the other hand, one can understand the attitude of civilians. The carpet-bombing of German towns was aimed at breaking the will of the nation as a whole to continue the war, by means of terror and destruction – any factories, military installations or transport facilities were a bonus unless they had been specially pinpointed for attack.
We waited for an hour in the waiting-room, then got a train to Frankfurt-am-Main, via Hagen and Giesen; Giesen had at one time been subject to attack, as the sidings were littered with smashed goods-wagons. It had started to snow by this time, and it was bitterly cold in the train. Civilians sitting opposite were much interested in the nature and qualify of my flying-gear, especially the boots. On detraining at Frankfurt, we walked a few km. to the Aircrew Interrogation Centre at Oberursel and I was handed in to official custody. My flying-gear was all taken away, except for the boots, and I was shoved into a cell in solitary confinement. The cell measured about eight feet by four; there was a bench along one wall with a blanket, a small barred window high up, and a light which never went out. There was a radiator below the window which came on at times during the day, but was off at night, so that it was hard to sleep because of the cold, and to make matters worse, footwear was taken away at night. There was a spyhole in the door, and beside the door, a handle. To go to the toilet, one pulled this handle, which caused a signal-arm to clang down in the corridor outside; this brough along a guard who escorted one back and forth. Outside each cell was a box containing sheets of toilet-paper; the first time, I took two sheets, but it was made very plain to me that the standard ration was just one. Hard luck on anyone who happened to be suffering from a common prisoner-of-war complaint known as the squitters or
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screamers. The daily allowance of food was four slices of bread, one plate of soup and two cups of warm weak coffee without sugar or milk. I presume the object of this solitary confinement, without seeing any one else and with absolutely nothing to do was a sort of weakening-up process, to make one more willing to talk when the time came for interrogation. It didn't bother me a lot, though, as I have always been somewhat solitary by nature.
After two days, I was taken out in the evening and up to a comfortably-furnished softly-lit room, smelling richly of cigar smoke, where an officer started off with general small-talk, then came to Air Force matters. The Geneva Convention states that all a prisoner is obliged to do is give his number, rank and name, which I did. He asked how long it was since I was shot down, and I saw no harm in answering that correctly, but when he said “That would be the night of an attack on Duisburg”, I thought I had said quite enough, and when he asked about squadron number and type of aircraft, I said: “You know I can't give details such as that, sir.” He persisted for a while with other questions, then gave up, and I was taken back to the cell for another couple of days, returning to the same interrogation room and interrogating-officer as before. This time, the approach was somewhat different. He began by remarking on the fact that I wore no identification discs. There were two of these, one round red one and one oblong green one with the corners clipped off. The were made of some sort of fibre, and the red one was fireproof. They were normally worn round the neck, but the string on mine had broken the day before the last flight, and I was intending to renew it when I got back. The dialogue went something like this:-
“There are two things that worry me about you, Sergeant Wagner. Here we have one single man in R.A.F. uniform who cannot, or will not identify himself, and who moreover claims a German name. How do I know you are who you say you are? Some details of your last flight might help to clear things up.”
(I could see what he was getting at – a veiled threat – but I
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explained the matter of the identity-discs, and said I could say no more.) He continued: -
“The second thing is that here we have an airman who has been wandering about in Germany for six days, claiming to have been shot down, but we have no others of the crew, and to crown it all, no wreckage of an aircraft that he came from. How do you explain this?”
“I jumped out over Holland and drifted back into Germany on the way down. Presumably the aircraft disintegrated over British-held territory.”
“Well, as it happens, Sgt. Wagner, I know more about you than you think. You come from 51 Squadron, Snaith, flying Halifaxes. The Commanding Officer is Wing-Commander Holford, and.....”(He went on to name the Navigation Leader, Bombing Leader and Signals Officer.) “You see, I have had other crews from 51 Squadron, and they have said more than you are saying. Now, what I would like to know are what operations you have been on, and what was your route and height to Duisburg. And what was the bomb-load.”
“The bomb-load was no concern of mine – I don’t know what it was. The height varied continually, and I can’t remember the exact routeing. Even if I could, the Geneva Convention only permits me to give Number, Rank and Name.”
At this stage, he desisted, and I was returned to my cell. I was roused at 2 a.m. and given a piece of bread and a cup of coffee. Departed 4 a.m., and walked with about fifty others, mostly Americans, to the station. Waited about for two hours in the cold, then went by train to Wetzlar, not a long journey, about two hours. Marched 4 km. to a camp, searched, given a P.O.W capture-parcel, and allocated a billet in a room of 3-tier bunks containing some 20 men. The Capture-parcel was a small fibre suitcase containing pyjamas, towel, socks, shaving-kit, soap, darning-holdall, toothbrush and toothpaste, comb, chocolate,
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and pipe and tobacco or cigarettes, and came by courtesy of the Red Cross. I dumped this on my bunk, stood up, and recognised the man in the bunk above. This was John Trumble, whom I had done some of my training with in South Africa, and we remained together through the hard times that lay ahead. His face lit up, and he said: ”Waggie!” and I said: “Hello John. A right old turn-up this isn’t it?” He had no other members of his crew with him either, so we teamed up. We spent six days altogether at Wetzlar, which was what would be called, I suppose, an Aircrew Disposal Centre, always cold and hungry, and that took us over into January 1945.
I stayed together with John through many difficulties for the rest of the time in Germany and returned to England with him. I stayed with him for a few days in the summer of 1945, then unfortunately we lost touch with each other, as so often happened in those days. It should not have happened, but it did. I often wondered what had become of him, and after writing the above, resolved to make a determined effort to find him. I knew his address was, in those times, Pottene Park Farm Devizes, but he had no connection with the farm, just lived in a rented cottage there. I thought of writing to the present occupier of the farm, asking him to send my letter on if John was still local, or perhaps he could look in the local telephone directory and see if he was listed. Then it dawned on me – “Phone directory, that’s it”, the library in Wisbech having directories for the whole country, about sixty of them. So I waded through some forty directories, and found several A. Trumble’s, but by a bit of good luck John always used the whole three Christian-name initials, A.H.J., and I located him in a village near Truro. If his name had been Smith or Jones, this method would not have been practical, of course.
There follow now some extracts from a diary I kept at the time, with some notes where further explanation is necessary.
5 Jan. 1945. Posting-lists up in the mess-hall. I am going tomorrow with John to Stalag Luft 7, Bankau, Silesia.
6 Jan. Marched down to station in the afternoon, after being searched and given
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a packet of chewing-gum each. Entrained in 2 cattle-trucks, 25 to a truck. One Red Cross parcel between 2 issued for journey. Half the truck occupied by guards.
7,8,9 January, on the train.
10 Jan. Detrained 0800 and walked up to the camp through deep snow. No greatcoats. Searched. Got a billet with John, & we got organised in a combine with 2 others for food-parcels and meals. Filled a paillasse with wood-shavings.
11 Jan. 1 Red cross parcel per man per fortnight promised, and reasonable German rations. First parade 0915 & the other at 1615. Quite a good library. Snow on the ground all the time, and very cold. Got greatcoat. Walked round perimeter track occasionally.
14 Jan. Went to church service in the evening. (The camp padre was an Army officer, Captain Collins. Air Force padres were, in the nature of things, unlikely to be captured. Captain Collins was a remarkable man, but more of him later. A very large proportion of prisoners attended church services, not I think because there was nothing else to do but because a belief gave a man something to hold onto in difficult times.)
One evening, there was a Russian Air-raid in the vicinity of the camp. I had just put margarine and honey on a slice of bread when the sirens went and the lights were put out, so I put it down on a stool and went to look out of the window. When the lights came on again, no bread. Accusations of theft, but everybody denied responsibility. Then I saw a mangled piece of bread stuck to the rear of another man’s trousers. I scraped it off and ate it.
18 Jan. Warned to be ready to evacuate the camp as the Russians were getting close. Packed case, packed as much food as we could, and wolfed the rest. I was ready to carry case, food parcel, and blanket wrapped round neck. Had to wear flying-boots as no ordinary ones were available. (These were lambswool lined, loose-fitting, and not designed for walking.) Very close Russian bombing. Sleepless night, as we had to be ready to move off any minute.
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(By this time, I had been issued with this identity-tag, and was officially “on the books.” In the event of death, the lower half was broken off and kept for records, the other half was buried with the body.)
[inserted]
19 Jan. Departed 0500 in bitter weather, after hanging about in the cold for a long time. Marched all day, 27 km. to Winterfeld. Had to eat snow as no water was available. spent the night wedged in a very small barn – hardly slept at all.
20 Jan. Wakened 5 a.m. and set off again. Marched all the morning, 12 km. to an abandoned brick-factory at Karlsruhe. Warm and dry. Had something to eat, a brew of coffee, then went to sleep. Feet very bad with blisters, so tied boots on with wire. Started dragging case inside the lid of another abandoned one, towing it along with a bootlace. Much kit jettisoned by the side of the road. Left 2000, as the Russians were getting close again. Marched without stopping all night.
21 Jan. Crossed the Oder 0500 – bridge mined, ready to blow up. Stopped in a village, but no accommodation was available, so pressed on another 5 km., making 41 km. in all (i.e. 25 miles). Many chaps dropped out during the night because of bad feet and exhaustion. Arrived Barrkwitz 1100. Got bed-space in a barn and had something to eat. A bull charged in scattering everybody. When it was ejected, went to sleep.
22 Jan. Roused 0300, as Russians were still pressing on Issued with a few carraway biscuits. The Germans had a bit of a job getting the chaps moving again, and there was some shooting. Pushed on 16 km. to Jenkwitz, arriving at noon. Moved some cattle out of a barn and got a bed-space organised. Warm, but very damp and smelling strongly of cattle. Ration 1 cup of coffee, 1/2 a biscuit and marge.
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(Coffee issued by the Germans was made of acorns roaster and ground up, and with milk and sugar from Red Cross parcels was not too bad at all.)
23 Jan. Left 0900. Marched 25 km. to Wassen[?]. Small bread issue and 1 cup of soup.
24 Jan. Spent the day at Wassen[?] trying to get some rest.
25 Jan. Left 0600 and marched 27 km. (17 miles) to Heidersdorf.
26 Jan. Stayed the day at Heidersdorf. Ration 2/5 of a loaf, and marge.
27 Jan. Left 1100 and marched 24 km. to Pfaffendorf, arriving at 1700. Small barn, wretched cramped bed-space, underneath a ladder – grain falling down from above all the time. Made up a double bed with John.
28 Jan. Left 0400; did 22 km. to Stansdort, in bitter weather, a fierce cold wind and driving snow. (You could rake your finger-nails down your face and not feel a thing, a real blizzard.) Arrived noon, dead-beat. Ration 4 biscuits and ½ cup of soup. (The German soup was watery in the extreme. There were two varieties – a) made from shredded dried turnip, and b) a less popular variety made from a very dark green cabbage of some sort, like spinach, known to the consumers as Whispering Grass, after a well-known song at the time.) Cold uncomfortable bed-space. Left 1830, still dragging case – nothing jettisoned. Collected 2 packets of hard biscuits (8 in all) outside a town after 3 km. Walked all night through a fierce blizzard – heavy snow, roads sometimes blocked, so had to clamber through drifts. Much transport abandoned. Many more chaps dropped out during this night.
29 Jan. Very heavy going. Slow halting freezing march. Arrived Peterwitz 0200 in an exhausted condition. Got a good warm ample bed-space; made a double bed with John and turned in, too tired even to wait for soup from the field-kitchen.
30 and 31 Jan. Spent at Peterwitz, resting.
1 Feb. Left 1000 and did 17 km. to Prausnitz.[?] Snow thawed half way, so had to start carrying case, and found it very heavy. Small dirty farmyard, absolutely crowded. However, got a good dry bed-space upstairs
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in a barn, by a water-cistern. Much brewing of coffee and porridge on fires in the farmyard. Soup twice a day from the field-kitchens.
[underlined] 2, 3, 4 Feb. [/underlined] At Prausnitz. On the evening of the 4th, issued with marching rations – 1/3 loaf, 1/3 tin of liver-paste, & some margarine. Although you could not style our progress as “marching” – we shambled along in a dejected shabby column, with German guards along the sides accompanied by Alsations.
[underlined] 5 Feb. [/underlined] Roused 0400; left 0700 and did 7 km. to Goldberg. Slight rain. Stole some sugar-beet along the way and gnawed at it. Packed into cattle trucks at the station, 55 men to a truck, and locked in. (These trucks, common on the continent, bore the legend 40 hommes, 8 chevaux, so we were well over the limit. There was not even enough room for everyone to sit down. There was a small barred window in each corner, also one large tin for toilet purposes. The vicinity of this tin was not rated very highly.) Travel slow, with many long halts of 7 to 8 hours.
[underlined] 6, 7, 8 Feb. [/underlined] On the train. Very hungry. Ate some spoonfuls of flour, barley and sugar mixed, from a cocoa tin. No water. Bought a crust of bread from Eddie, which he found beside the track, for tobacco.
9 Feb. Arrived at Luckenwalde, 23 miles S.W. of Berlin, 0800, feeling very weak. Marched 5 km. up to the camp, Stalag IIIA. Much hanging about. Brewed coffee. Queued up all the afternoon and had a hot shower. Got a billet with John – not too bad a position, on the floor on wood-straw, underneath a window. Warm and light anyhow, and room to stretch out. Porridge and potatoes from the Germans and a cup of soup from our own field kitchen.
10 Feb. Changed into pyjamas and washed dirty clothes. Had a shave.
11 Feb. German rations 1/6 loaf, 5 potatoes, 1/3 litre of soup, and German tea in the morning and evening. (This tea was a herbal mixture, and with milk and sugar made a reasonable drink. A count was held in the mornings early, to find who wanted their tea brewed and who wanted the mixture dry, to smoke – it was just like herbal tobacco. The potatoes were grown in a field near the camp, the crop being fertilised with the contents of the latrine (or “abort” in German), and were boiled in their skins.)
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[Newspaper cutting from “The Prisoner of War” dated May 1945, detailing the journey of prisoners to Stalag Luft VII and the conditions in Stalag IIIA, Luckenwalde]
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68.
12 Feb. Wrote home. (This letter, however, did not arrive.) Bad attack of dysentery, which made me even weaker – nearly everybody had it. (This was brought on by eating raw or undercooked food, insufficient bulk, the freezing conditions of the march, and by general weakness and lack of resistance. For the first few days at Luckenwalde, everyone just lay on the floor, listless and apathetic, except for occasional dashes to the abort – not everyone made it in time!)
14 Feb. Usual day, weak with hunger and dysentery.
16 Feb. and thereafter, a succession of wretched days, very little food. Listened to BBC news brought round and read out daily in each barrack block, received on an illicit radio. This was known to the Germans, but they failed to unearth the set. Anyway, even if they did, there were others in reserve. Shaved and washed once a week. Two roll-call parades in the freezing cold every day, between 30 minutes and an hour each.
[photograph of the bunks]
Three-tier bunks of the type encountered at [indecipherable word] prison camps such as Bankau. At Luckenwalde we just lay on the floor.
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[photograph of ‘feeding quarters’]
Feeding-quarters for a “combine” of six.
[photograph] Luckenwalde. Bringing up one barrock-block’s daily ration of soup. The tub was known as a “keevil”. Blankets airing on the barbed-wire. [/photograph]
This was not the outer perimeter of the camp – there was the no-man’s land of some 50 yards, then the proper fence interspersed with towers (known as “goon boxes”) occupied by machine gunners. The term “goon” was used slightingly of all Germans, named after a comic-strip of the time – The Goons were a stupid shapeless lot of sub-humans. All
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Germans were treated with contempt by R.A.F. Prisoners.
[photograph of prisoners exercising}
Prisoners from the “cooler” at exercise. The usually got there for insulting the guards.
[photograph of soldiers in compound]
American compound. The Americans were late arrivals; all the huts were occupied, so they were accommodated in tents.
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[photograph of soldiers cooking]
Americans operating their cooking-stove, known as “blowers” or “Smokey Joes”, worked by means of a forced-draught propelled along a tunnel by a fan. All made from good-tins and pieces of wood. John's and my Smokey Joe stood on a base detached from over the doorway to the abort. The abort, by the way, was in a long hut, wooden box-like structures, perforated at suitable intervals, over a deep trench, and accommodating about 30 people. It was a social meeting-place and the centre for gathering and passing on rumours.
27 Feb. On fatigue. Slept last night fully dressed because it was so cold. Up 0600, in the dark, collected keevil and went down for tea. Parade. Breakfast. Another parade for blanket inspection. Had a wash and shave in cold water in a dirty wash-place. Afternoon roll-call 1700, then a Red Cross parcel issue, one between four, which greatly improved morale. Shared it out and had some real food. Then the sirens went and the lights went out, so turned in.
Parcel issue was not usually as convenient as this – it was often one between seven or one between nine, which made sharing difficult. Some people made nearly all the contents of their parcels into a sort of solid cake, known as “glop”, but we preferred to use one item at a time.
In 1982, I went to a Stalag Luft 7 reunion at Nottingham,
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and this is the menu and address to those present. Note the amounts stated in the menu, maintaining the tradition of difficult share-outs. How do you share six prunes between ten?
[menu missing]
Klim was dried powdered milk from American Red Cross parcels. The Limburg fish-cheese is worthy of note. It came in wooden
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boxes which, when opened, revealed about twenty oval flattish cakes covered with some sort of skin, and gave off an appalling stench. The only way of eating this delicacy was to strip off the skin, liberally douse the content with pepper and salt, hold your nose, and consume the cheese with the utmost despatch. There were not many takers, so there was plenty for those with stomachs strong enough to take it, but over-consumption could precipitate an attack of the squitters.
A few other items from this programme:-
Amongst the “sporting activities”, we find Louse Hunting. Lice thrived in the crowded insanitary conditions. If you have not had the privilege of encountering any, they were flat dirt-grey insects, hard-shelled – if you squeezed one between your fingers, it had no effect. The lurked in the seams of clothing, so had to be winkled out and crushed between thumb-nails, and there was a little spot of blood if they had recently fed. They carried, of course, the germs of typhus, and the Germans were always much perturbed to hear of increased infestation – any plague would have swept like wildfire through the camp, and while I don’t suppose the effect on prisoners would have worried them a great deal, it would eventually have affected the Germans themselves.
Dog-walking to Kreuzberg. Kreuzberg was the nearest town, and any prisoner requiring dental or medical treatment had to walk there, accompanied by a guard and the inevitable Alsatian.
Goon-baiting, which accounted for the majority of the inmates of the “cooler”, and was a popular sport aimed at making the Germans feel uncomfortable. I don’t think it took place much in Army camps, as soldiers were used to taking orders and doing as they were told, but aircrew were more rebellious independent spirits inclined to follow their own dictates. In a bomber-crew, for instance, the pilot was the captain, and any decision must ultimately be his, but he rarely had to give orders; in case of necessity, he took advice from the appropriate crew-member, a specialist who knew more than he did, weighed up the advice and then made his decision, but it was more a matter of consensus than orders. Goon-baiting usually consisted of telling the Germans that their country was finished, in ruins, that
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they had been misled, and that things were going to be tough for them. Ferreting came into the same category of making the Germans feel uncomfortable and inferior. A ferret was a member of the camp staff who prowled around looking for illegal activity, and was dealt with by the “duty pilot” system. The airman on duty, accompanied by a runner and a tail, would take up position at the entrance to the compound. When a ferret appeared, his name and time of arrival would be written down, making sure that he knew what was happening. The runner was sent off to go into each hut and call out : “Goon in the block”. The “tail” followed closely behind the ferret, making his presence felt. If the ferret turned round and remonstrated with him, he melted away into the crowd and a replacement took over. The object of all this was to inform the Germans that the compound was our preserve and that they only came in under sufferance.
And now a tribute to Captain John Collins, the Stalag Luft 7 padre. Read again the paragraph that describes him; every word is true, but words alone cannot do him justice. Where most of us were trudging along, heads down, concerned only for ourselves, he would appear at different parts of the column, sometimes speeding up, sometimes slowing down, so that everybody had a share of inspiration from his company. I can picture him now, face reddened by the blizzard, always cheerful, always optimistic, his arm round the shoulder of a man beginning to despair, carrying his gear for a little way as well as his own, then a pat on the back and off to find someone else. And the man he had just left thought: “If he can bloody well do it, so can I.” Truly a “man among men”, and I am sure his inspiration did save lives.
I kept some record of day-to-day events while at Luckenwalde, on odd scraps of paper: here is one such, written on the end-paper of a library-book, and making the best use of available space: -
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[pencilled notes indecipherable]
and on another scrap, a drawing of a Halifax; John, being a Lancaster man, asked me to do it so that we could see the differences between the two types:-
[pencil drawing]
MH were the identification letters of 51 Squadron.
16 March. Germans cut rations to potatoes every other day, 1/6 of a loaf a day, and half margarine and sugar rations.
21 March. Cold. High wind blowing dust all over the place. Difficult day for Smokey Joe – cut up a Klim[?] tin and made a windshield for him. Issue of 1 American Red Cross No. 10 per man – prunes, chocolate
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peanut butter, tuna, plum jam, Camel cigarettes. 3 wrapped chocolate for raisins. News good today – Worms, Ludwigshafen, Neustadt and Homburg taken. Germans in chaos all along the line.
24 March. Twenty-two today. They’ll probably be thinking of me at home and wondering what sort of birthday I’m having. (There had been no news for them from 19 Dec. to 6 March, so they had only heard less than three weeks before.) Shifted dirty straw from bedspace and burned it, in response to an anti-typhus purge by the Germans, so we lay on the bare boards thereafter.
27 March. Issue of the dreaded Limburg fish cheese. Got a bundle of wood from a Russian for 2 cigarettes. Diphtheria broke out in our barrack – block – enforced gargling the opening of windows.
30 March. Good Friday. Washed, shaved, & put on hair-grease. (This was an issue of an evil-looking black grease, much resembling axle-grease, which it may well have been. Goodness knows why they issued it.) Cleaned shoes. Parade by main gate 0920 for church – The Seven Words from the Cross, by Captain Collins.
2 April. Day dragged interminably. Made some prune jam, but it was cold and windy, a bad day for Smokey Joes.
5 April. Issue of 1 American Red Cross No. 10 per man. One more and they will all be finished – time to tighten belts again. Destruction of German rail-system and rolling-stock by the R.A.F. prevents supply of more parcels.
11 April. This evening, it was announced that a partial evacuation from Luckenwolde would begin tomorrow. All officers going, & N.C.O.’s from Barrack 3 and 33 from Barrack 7. John and I volunteered to be among the 33 because we thought the others might not get transport and would have to march. Packed kit and shared our food for carrying; we had a whole case full of tins of food stored up, a little from every parcel.
12 April. Called out to move off after soup 1100. Much checking and roll-calls. Search, just before which we had to get cracking in a hurry and puncture all our tins. Nothing taken, except they took one of John’s blankets. Marched down to Luckenwolde station. We had our
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blower[?] with us – John insisted on bringing it, and just outside the station we set it down and had a hot brew, which was very welcome although it was a hot day. Issue of 40 cigarettes per man. Entrained in cattle trucks, 40 per truck. Stole porage[sic] oats from a nearby train. (Looking up through the floorboards of a truck, we saw sacks inside. On being slit open with a knife, a steady stream of oats came through a wide crack, which was much appreciated by those in the vicinity.) Sleeping-space cramped, but I have been in worse. Very hot and stuffy – no ventilation.
13 April. Up 0600 & brewed up. Had bread, then stewed prunes. Talk by Wing Commander in charge of the party. Bombing of the line down at Treuenbrietzen means we can’t leave here for some time. BBC news read out during evening, also it was announced we go back to camp tomorrow.
14 April. Up 0600. Porridge, thin bread. Results of trading with German civvies – ½ loaf, 2 onions, 6 eggs, 30 saccharine tablets, and 4 lbs of potatoes for 65 cigarettes and 2 bars of soap. Marched back to camp and got organised in our same barrack. While we were away, 2 R.A.F. chaps shot trying to climb the wire – “stir-crazy”, I suppose.
17 April. Issue of 1 parcel between 2. That is the last now. Water turned off nearly all day.
18 April. News good today. Our advance appears to have slowed down, but the Russians have started a big push on the Berlin front, and are doing well. Organisation going ahead for running the camp ourselves when the Germans leave.
20 April. Bombing of Potsdam and Wriezenburg[sic] by U.S. heavies. Lovely fine day. Clouds of smoke over target. Made out a list of food in stock and rationed it to last 5 weeks. This evening there was a feeling in the air that something was going to happen, but there was no definite news. Russian artillery plainly heard, red glows in the sky.
21 April. Heard German staff moving out with lorries, tractors and cars during the night. Not called out on parade this morning. A few German guards still left, but not many. Russian tank crews brought in – short imprisonment for them. Looting of German staff quarters, but not much to be had. Prisoners record-cards from the camp offices were distributed – here
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is mine:-
[blank page]
Dull rainy day. Wing Commander Beamont[?] (who later became chief pilot for English Electric, and was in charge of test-flying Camberras and Lightnings), announced that the Germans had left, the camp was surrounded, and the Russians were fighting in Luckenwalde and Juterbog last night.
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22 April. Slept fully dressed last night in case we had to make a dash for the trenches. French and British flags flying at the gate, and a big red Russian one over the cookhouse. White flags at intervals round the perimeter barbed wire. At 1030 Russian tanks and lorries arrived in force. All the Russian prisoners were given rifles and moved out straight away, anxious to kill Germans. (Russia was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention for treatment of prisoners of war, and they had a terrible time of it in the camp, almost starved or worked to death. The same treatment was accorded to German prisoners held by the Russians.)
Artillery duel just outside the camp in the evening, between Germans hiding in a wood and a party of Russians.
[pencilled notes indecipherable]
The next few pages are photo-copies of the part of Wing Commander Beamont’s[?] book The War in the Air, which deals with the liberation of Luckenwalde.
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THE WAR IN THE AIR
then came the end in Europe. For some it was sudden: the nights suddenly quiet because no engines had to be tested for the dawn; the days suddenly long because they knew there would be a tomorrow. But for others, in the prisoner-of-war camps, it was a more drawn-out affair.
THE LONG LIBERATION
10th April. After weeks of better and better news, and of resigning ourselves to waiting for a few more weeks until final liberation, strated [sic] by our fighters, it will be an amazing stroke of fortune (and I know well enough what 20-mm can do to trains). However should this move come off, my policy will be to try and stay behind with the sick. This is the allied target area – not Munich.
Two days ago we saw a Mosquito release a cloud of leaflets overhead at about 20,000 feet. Intelligence reports that the contents are telling Russian prisoners-of-war that they will be liberated within ten to fifteen days.
The Russians have been literally starved by the goons and are dying in dozens of TB. The hospital is crammed with them. We had collections of food which we can hardly spare for them. Meanwhile great preparation of emergency food. Am fairly well off this time. One lives and learns. Over and above the Red Cross parcel I have acquired six chocolate bars, a tin of fish and three pounds of chocolate pemmican by judicious trading during the past weeks. So even without food from the Germans I should have nearly two weeks food at a bare living rate. In addition I have just traded a blue sweater and a pair of Jack Sharkies for two boxes of prunes, value 2s. 6d. But two days' food.
Midday. Germans announce officially that we move tomorrow. Have sent name in as unfit to travel – this is only partially true. But one risk is as good as another and I prefer this one as a fat better chance of liberation.
11th April. We have informed the Germans that this move is being carried out entirely without our co-operation. The only possible reason must be that we are intended to be held as hostages in the last stronghold in the mountainous area of Munich.
3 pm, Thursday, 12th April. After another night of tension, the camp was marched out to entrain for the incredible journey through the battle area to Munich this morning. As a notable change from the normal practice the move took place to the endless accompaniment of 'bitte,' absolutely no 'Raus! Raus!” at all.
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Even more amazing, my scheme has come off. I have been left behind with the sick bods against all the advice of the well-meaning older kriegies who were, I think, suffering from a surfeit of sour grapes. This was the best chance, and now, not three hours after the main party had gone, comes the news that the allies have cut the Magdeburg – Berlin autobahn. They could be here tomorrow.
The suspense is something of which I have never experienced the like. Waiting for a big low-attack show is a tea party in comparison! Atmosphere is electric.
The German officer on appel said, when I asked permission to remove a partition in a block for a new camp office: ‘One does not start a new building at five to twelve.’ At least they know the form.
The main party was still reported at the station, having spent the night in the trucks waiting for an engine which the Reichbahn [sic] people think is unlikely to materialise.
At 9.30 pm we received word that the boys were coming back as transport is impossible. Tank spearheads are reported at Brandenburg, Wittenberg – thirty miles from here – north of Halle and Leipzig. We are directly in front of the three-pronged thrust, and nothing short of fantastic ill-fortune can prevent our freedom in the next few days.
Saturday, 14th April. We worked late into last night trying to repair the damage in the blocks, caused by the departed kriegies themselves. In seven barracks there was hardly a serviceable bed. After appeals we received about fifteen per cent assistance in the big job of making sure that the returning boys would have at least a place to sleep. It is galling, the number of men who are not in the least concerned about the welfare of their friends and think only about themselves.
Still, somehow we arranged things and this morning the first party came in at 10 am, to the accompaniment of clapping and cheering from the Poles, and a loud chorus of ‘Hey, hey, the gang’s all here!’ from the Americans, accompanied by a trumpet, a violin and a mouth organ.
During yesterday’s appel we held a two minutes’ silence at attention in memory of Roosevelt who died yesterday. Particularly effective as the Americans were not on appel at the time, and remarkable
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because the company of German guards, who had paraded and were about to march off, remained at attention with us.
Reminder that the Germans are still in control came last night when two RAF NCOs attempted to climb the wire at the eleventh hour. One attacked a sentry with a bottle and was shot and killed. The other wounded. Bloody fools.
15th April. Terrific raid on Berlin suburb about twelve miles north of here last night. Made London show seem quite insignificant. Incredible din and display. Patton has a security blackout on the drive across the Elbe at Magdeburg. It is fifty miles away and is heading for us. Groups of kriegies stand in the compound all day staring south-west.
The atmosphere has more than expectancy, however, as the abort, always unsavoury, has sprung a leak.
Today’s big tragedy – I sat on my pipe and broke it.
Monday, 16th April. Tantalising news that the camp at Magdeburg to which the remainder of Luft 3 were sent from Sagen, has been liberated intact! When will our turn come?
Tuesday, 17th April. Another great Fortress raid passed over this morning. Mustangs and Thunderboirs [sic] are constantly in sight. Every thud and explosion, every flash of light in the sky is taken to be an indication of the advancing Americans.
Stalag II A consisting of some 4,000 Allied soldiers was evacuated into this area last week and, having arrived, had nowhere to go. They are living in the open, with no food supplies and no medical attention, and are in a tragic condition. The SBO sent our last reserve of Red Cross parcels to them yesterday together with two doctors and drugs.
Four hundred Russian sick were suddenly taken from our camp yesterday for destination unknown.
Wednesday, 18th April. Day after day, rumours add to the tension. The Russians are advancing fifty miles to the east, the Allies form miles to the west and south, but we are still here! The new optimisty [sic] has not borne fruit and now there is a new situation: no more Red Cross food.
Thursday, 19th April, night. The strain of boredom of the last few days was relieved at midnight when the Wing Commanders were routed out for a meeting with the SBO. His office was crammed with
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a circle of figures crouched round the table upon which lay a map of the area and two guttering lamps. He told us that the Russians had broken through south-east of us, were less than thirty miles away, and that the Germans proposed to march the whole camp unit of 4,000 prisoners-of-war in hostile country with no destination and no supplies of food or drugs, and most probably no shelter. The whole district is a battle area and such an action on the part of the goons cannot but have tragic results.
Friday, 20th April, morning. Still no further action by the Germans. We have our remaining food stocks packed and ready. Whether we go or stay, there will be no more food in a week’s time. With the possibility of freedom nearer than it has ever been, the chance of getting the chop is rather great. But to hell with the war! The only course is to relapse into one’s normal state of mental rigidity and sunbathe.
Saturday, 21st April. The most amazing day of my life. All night fires raged, guns thundered, and cannon shattered and at dawn a violent tank battle took place at Luckenwalde. Juterbog, twelve miles to the south, is in flames. FW 190s are ground-strafing within sight at all times. In short we are in the front line.
(By now most of the German guards had deserted, leaving the prisoners in charge of their own camp).
We are in the most critical of all stages now. Nearly free but without news of relieving forces, and in this country of brutality and horror anything might happen yet.
We know that the Russians are all round us. Perhaps they will be here tomorrow. I win £30 if they are. It is grand to have a job again. Quite a strange thing using a telephone!
Hell! An FW 190 has just strafed the whole length of the camp. I must go and see if there have been casualties.
Midnight, and no casualties. The organisation is almost complete. Amazingly enough the telephone network is operating and I have a set in my temporary office-cum-bedroom now. Very tired, have checked and arranged pickets on the of the NCOs’ compound.
Sunday, 22nd April, midday. Russians are here in force. Fighting all round. Local tank commander’s attitude is very brusque and dogmatic. I don’t think they like us very much. Tanks charging up and down have torn up our communications and in places the wire.
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The French are hysterical, the British a little less so, and the Norwegians are calm. The Americans are reported only a few miles away. I hope they get here before this comedy becomes a tragedy.
At long last the Red Air Force’s close support Aira-Cobras, Yaks, and Stormoviks fly above us. So do the Luftwaffe, putting up a brave show to the last. It was fascinating to watch a silver dart of a Messerschmitt delta jet dive straight down on to a formation of forty Fortresses, then Bang! bang! and a Fortress fell away while the Me 163 shot straight up into cloud.
In another scrap two Me 109’s shot down three out of twelve Aira-Cobras without loss. The Aira-Cobras were flying in formation under cloud. I caught a glimpse of the 109s as they dived straight astern, shot down two of the Cobras, and whipped up into cloud leaving the rest of the formation running round in circles wondering what had happened. Farther on the Me 109s came down again through another hole in the cloud and destroyed the third Aira-Cobra. They suffered no loss themselves.
1 pm. The Russians depart leaving us in temporary control. They have brought up a quantity of flak already, so it seems as if the area is nearly stabilised. However there are still plenty of bangs, and plenty of great unneighbourliness in this area.
The news announces tanks penetrating deep into Berlin.
Evening. Violent fighting in the woods to the north. Shells whistling and screaming overhead, and 109s dive-bombing the autobahn. The Russians have added heavy flak to their set-up here. The din is fantastic. More fierce fighting on the boundaries and cannon-strafing by Junkers 88s. Two Serbs and a number of Russians killed in the fighting round the camp. Violent action between a Russian tank and Germans as it left the main gate. The Russians seemed to win. They have taken General Ruge with them to fly him to Moscow. This leaves the SBO as the senior Allied CO.
(Undated.) Told officers and pickets to dissuade the men from going through the wire if possible, but if told to ‘b------- off’, to ‘b-------- off’ promptly and avoid incident. Then talked to the chaps in the blocks and reported to the SBO. Suggested that all compounds should be open, giving free circulation throughout the whole camp but within the wire. Bed at 2.30 am. Strafed by a Ju 88 at 4 am. Cannon shells all over the shop but fortunately no casualties.
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[typewritten script from The War in the Air]
1945
8 am. Another direct threat to officers. Three sections of the wire cut away and Army NCOs loose. The RAF hanging-fire though pretending to follow Army lead. Walked into each barrack and addressed the men. Think I put the position over and am more certain than ever the trouble is due to just one or two bad characters. At one point nearly used the SBO’s authority to throw the worst types into the cooler, but steered clear. Am sure freedom of circulation within the whole camp would ease the situation.
This is the worst couple of days in my experience without exception. The feeling of the possibility that we might lose control of a mass of desperate men, under condition of front-line war and artillery shells, machine-guns, rifles, aircraft cannon and bombs going off all round, is inclined to be unpleasant. I think we can hold our own, but it is not a comfortable position.
Russians killed off four German wounded hiding in the woods. Nice people!
Stormoviks and Yaks in great numbers today. They seem to operate well on their side of the front! Dog-fights between four Aira-Cobras and one Me 109 overhead this afternoon. The Russians seem to weave violently at all times. The Yak is a good little fighter in the Spitfire class.
Our pet Junkers 88 low-strafed us with front guns again in the moonlight. Plenty return 20-mm fire from the town. Very interesting to be at the other end for a change. I admire these Luftwaffe boys for carrying on to the grim end.
A Russian patrol found four French POWs in a house outside the camp with some women. Russians shot and killed the Frenchmen for refusing to obey an order. They probably wanted the women for themselves.
Our own trouble has died down for the moment. We have averted a riot I suppose, but in actual practise discipline as such is gone.
Wednesday. Still no Americans. This waiting is tricky. Plenty of food now when at odd moments I can find time to eat. Yesterday I had my first hot drink and a meal of bread and rhubarb at 3.30 pm. The Russians are giving us all they can. Very friendly now and much back slapping, but no respect.
Thursday. Situation tense again in my compound. NCOs are not the
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slightest bit prepared to meet the officers half-way, and are quite certain that we are there to make life unpleasant.
In all this turmoil the thought that we are no longer in fact prisoners-of-war and should be home soon is difficult to grasp and is not in the least exciting.
Saturday. So ends this demoralising week of passing on and handing out orders that one knows perfectly well will not be carried out. Held a roll parade to check ration strength this morning. The men took a lot of persuasion and diplomacy to turn out for that. Last night the news of a link-up between the Americans and Russians at Torgau cheered everyone immensely. The later report that a jeep bearing three American war correspondents had been seen on the way to Berlin should do much to settle the present unrest.
Watched a Mig shoot down a 190 in four short bursts. Very pretty.
Wednesday. Ten days since the Germans left. One of the biggest battles we have seen is now raging on the north-east and northern borders of the camp. Rifle and tommy-gun fire is incessant and mortar duel is in progress with us in no-man’s land. The radio has announced the release of all camps taken by the Americans and British, but has said nothing of us. Our people must be worried. So are we.
Thursday, 1800 hours. The first Yanks in the camp. Two war correspondents in a jeep from the lines at Magdeburg. They are taking taking Beatty, our press correspondent, back with them tomorrow and he will fly to Eisenhower’s headquarters with our records. Maybe things will start moving. All the boys want to push off west and are doing so in increasing numbers. I would be right with them if I hadn’t this damned responsibility. Wrote a brief note home and put it in the jeep. It might get through.
Friday. Sunshine. Many more people walking west. Two hundred of the men from this compound alone walked out yesterday. The position is intolerable. We can and should march the camp west to the Elbe with of course the Russian’s approval. The Americans are at Wittenberg. Only thirty miles away – one day or so on a bicycle.
1600 hours. American colonel from Davescourt headquarters here, said our evacuation starts at once! Trucks arriving tonight and we shall be flown home. Can it be true! Shall we, shall I be out of this country of death and home in England? It is almost too much to expect.
Wing Commander ROLAND BEAMONT’S dairy,[sic] quoted by EDWARD LANCHBERY
It was too much to expect. The Americans sent the trucks, the Russians sent them back. It was another two weeks before they got home.
[/typewritten script from The War in the Air]
[page break]
Enclosed below is an account of the last days at Luckenwalde from my own point of view, and the journey home.
[pencilled notes indecipherable]
On one of our private forging parties, John and I fell in with some Polish prisoners who had been employed at the factory making V1 flying bombs. None of us could speak the other side’s language, so everything was done by signs. We went back to their billet with them, and they produced enamel mugs and bottles of spirit, looking like lemon-barley water, which we gathered was fuel for the flying-bombs, and must have been almost pure alcohol. Some was poured on a table, a match applied, and it went “whoomph.” We imbibed a fair quantity of this, and were soon blotto. We staggered back to camp and sagged down to sleep it off; woke up with a raging thirst and had a drink of water. This had the effect of re-activating the spirit, setting the whole
[page break]
[pencilled notes indecipherable]
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88
business in motion again, so we were back in square one.
I see “Stinger” is referred to here and there. This was Staff Sergeant Nettell of the Glider Pilot Regiment, the senior N.C.O. in our hut, and something of a comedian. Rumours were rife towards the end, our prisoners were somewhat apprehensive about what the Germans might have in store for them. One day, Stinger came into the hut, called for silence, and announced: “Everyone in this hut – is to parade outside in five minutes time – to march down to the stores – to draw picks and shovels – to dig their own graves.” I thought: “So it’s come to that, has it?” There was a stunned silence for a moment, then laughter broke out – Stinger and his jokes again!
The Russians were very reluctant to let us go, and our impatience mounted. American army lorries arrived on 6 May to take us away, but the Russians sent them away empty. The next day, prisoners started off trickling away on their own, walking westwards, and John and I set off in a part of about a dozen. After walking about 7 miles, we met another convoy of American lorries heading for the camp. One of them picked us up, turned around, and set off towards the west, finishing up at a P.O.W. reception centre at Schonebeck, in what was a Junkers aircraft factory. So on 7 May we were once again in safe hands. The war officially ended the next day with unconditioned German surrender.
11 May.
Embarked in lorries and proceeded via Magdeburg and Brunswick to an ex-German fighter aerodrome at Hildesheim. Had a hot shower and a de-lousing. In the latter operation, an orderly put the nozzle of a large syringe down the front of one’s trousers and sent a blast of DDT round the interior. Assigned to an aircraft party. Got a Red Cross parcel containing soap (toilet, tooth and shaving), shaving-brush razor and blades, 2 handkerchiefs, tooth-brush, face-cloth, toilet-bag, 50 cigarettes and ½ lb of chocolate. Soup, bread, coffee and a K-ration for tea.
12 May. Called out to the aerodrome after breakfast. A steady stream
[page break]
of Dakotas was coming in, filling up and taking off again. Took off 1600, flew over the devastated areas of the Ruhr, and landed at Brussels 1800. Tea and biscuits from the Naafi waggon. Transported in lorries to 42 R.H.U. at Louvain, about 12 miles out. Deloused once again.
13 May. Taken back to Brussels Airport in the afternoon, got aboard a Dakota and flew back to England via Ostend and the Thames Estuary. Landed at Wing, near Aylesbury. Deloused yet again – they must have thought those lice were pretty hardy characters, to have survived two previous assaults. After more tea and biscuits, transported to Bicester aerodrome, where we stayed the night. Bacon and egg, bread and marmalade, for tea.
14 May. Train to Cosford, near Wolverhampton. Given new uniform and kit, went through documentation, give ration cards and leave passes, and pay. Medical exam.
15 May. Left late in the afternoon, travelled through the night, and arrived at Reading 0430. Two hours to wait for a train to Twyford, and another ½ hour for one to Henley. When I arrived home the rest of the family were still in bed and I had to knock them up.
The following letters are in order, as received by my mother. The original telegram has not survived, but it read: “Deeply regret to inform you your son Sgt. H. Wagner failed to return from an operational flight over enemy territory this morning. Pending receipt of written notification no information to be given to the Press.”
* Letters on page numbered 90 onwards.
[page break]
[newspaper cuttings relating the heroism of the aircrews of Bomber Command]
[page break]
[Three newspaper cuttings on Bomber Command – the third worded as follows:]
The campaign fought by Bomber Command was the longest and the most sustained in British military history. It lasted from September 1939 to May 1945. It cost the lives of 57,000 of its aircrew – Britons, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans – a total which represents well over half of all those who flew on operations. Nowhere else was the casualty rate so high, perhaps because nowhere else was battle joined with the enemy on such a continuous and relentless scale.
They were all young men, all highly-trained. They came to England from all over the Empire, to volunteer for and to create the last Imperial force there would ever be. In the darkest days they were a symbol that ultimately their world would triumph, whatever the cost. They were a special breed, on a special crusade, and possessed it seemed of a special courage. They did not ask to live, but only to win.
[page break]
[page break]
51
in charge, rumours were rife, and prisoners were somewhat apprehensive about what the Germans might have in store for them. One day, Stinger came into the hut, called for silence
[page break]
89
of Dakotas was coming in, filling up and taking off again. Took off 1600, flew over the devastated areas of the Ruhr, marvelling at the damned good job we had made of it, and landed at Brussels 1800. Tea and biscuits from the Naafi waggon [sic]. Transported in lorries to 42 R.H.U. At Louvain, about 12 miles out. De-loused once again, tea, and turned in.
13 May. Taken back to Brussels Airport in the afternoon, got aboard a Dakota and flew back to England via Ostend and the Thames Estuary. Landed at Wing, near Aylesbury. De-loused yet again – they must have considered the lice pretty hardy characters to have survived two previous assaults. After more tea and biscuits, transported to Bicester aerodrome, where we stayed the night. Bacon and egg, bread and marmalade, and tea.
14 May. Train to Cosford, near Wolverhampton. Given new uniform and kit, went through documentation, given ration cards, leave passes, and pay. Medical exam.
15 May. Left late in the afternoon, travelled through the night, and arrived at Reading 0430. Two hours to wait for a train to Twyford, and another 1/2 hr. for one to Henley. When I arrived home, the rest of the family were still in bed, and I had to knock them up.
There followed several days of seeing old friends and places again, writing to parents of the rest of my crew, playing golf, servicing motorcycle and generally relaxing and feeling glad to be home again and to be able to wander as I pleased. The following letters are in order as received by my mother. The original telegram has not survived, but it read; “Deeply regret to inform you your son Sgt. H. Wagner failed to return from an operational flight over enemy territory this morning. Pending receipt of written notification no information to be given to the Press.”
[page break]
90
No. 51 Squadron,
R.A.F. Station,
Snaith,
Nr. Goole,
Yorkshire.
Reference:- 51S/801/251/P.1.
18th December, 1944.
Dear Mrs. Wagner
It is with the deepest regret that I have to confirm the news already conveyed to you by telegram to-day, that your Son, 1604744 Sergeant H.W. Wagner, failed to return from an operational flight over enemy territory this morning.
Your Son was acting in his capacity of Navigator in an aircraft which took-off during the early hours of this morning to deliver an attack on a target at Duisburg, and I regret that nothing was heard of the aircraft or its crew after the time of take-off.
The loss of this crew is a sad blow to all of us here, particularly so in the case of your Son, who was looked upon as one of our outstanding Navigators, and who commanded the respect of all. We cherish the hope that he and his companions may yet prove to be safe and well, though prisoners of war.
Your Son's personal belongings have been gathered together by the Station Effects Officer and forwarded to the R.A.F. Central Depository, who will send them on to you in due course.
I would like to add that the request in the telegram notifying you of the casualty to your Son was included with the object of avoiding his chance of escape being prejudiced in case he was still at large. This is not to say that any information is available, but it is a precaution which is adopted in the case of all missing personnel.
Please accept the deepest sympathy of myself and all the Officers and Men of the Squadron.
Yours Sincerely
H.A.R. Holford
Wing commander, Commanding,
[underlined] No. 51 Squadron, R.A.F. [/underlined]
…./Over.
[page break]
91
AIR MINISTRY,
(casualty Branch),
73-77 OXFORD STREET,
LONDON, W.1
22 December, 1944.
Madam,
I am commanded by the Air Council to express to you their great regret on learning that your son, Sergeant Henry Wolfe Wagner, Royal Air Force, is missing as the result of air operations on 18th December, 1944, when a Halifax aircraft in which he was flying as navigator set out for action over Duisberg [sic] and failed to return.
This does not necessarily mean that he is killed or wounded, and if he is a prisoner of war he should be able to communicate with you in due course. Meanwhile enquiries are being made through the International Red Cross committee, and as soon as any definite news is received you will be at once informed.
/If
Mrs. J. E. Wagner,
14, Western Avenue,
Henley-on-Thames,
Oxon.
[page break]
If any information regarding your son is received by you from any source you are requested to be kind enough to communicate it immediately to the Air Ministry.
The air Council desire me to convey to you their sympathy in your present anxiety.
I am, Madam,
Your obedient Servant,
Charles Evans
98
[photograph]
A photograph of the cemetery in Holland, sent to me a few months after the war by Mrs Worthington, mother of our mid-upper gunner.
[photograph]
A close-up of the crew's graves before proper head-stones were fitted.
[page break]
89
of Dakotas was coming in, filling up and taking off again. Took off 1600, flew over the devastated areas of the Ruhr, marvelling at the damned good job we had made of it, and landed at Brussels 1800. Tea and biscuits from the Naafi waggon [sic]. Transported in lorries to 42 R.H.U. At Louvain, about 12 miles out. De-loused once again, tea, and turned in.
13 May. Taken back to Brussels Airport in the afternoon, got aboard a Dakota and flew back to England via Ostend and the Thames Estuary. Landed at Wing, near Aylesbury. De-loused yet again – they must have considered the lice pretty hardy characters to have survived two previous assaults. After more tea and biscuits, transported to Bicester aerodrome, where we stayed the night. Bacon and egg, bread and marmalade, and tea.
14 May. Train to Cosford, near Wolverhampton. Given new uniform and kit, went through documentation, given ration cards, leave passes, and pay. Medical exam.
15 May. Left late in the afternoon, travelled through the night, and arrived at Reading 0430. Two hours to wait for a train to Twyford, and another 1/2 hr. for one to Henley. When I arrived home, the rest of the family were still in bed, and I had to knock them up.
There followed several days of seeing old friends and places again, writing to parents of the rest of my crew, playing golf, servicing motorcycle and generally relaxing and feeling glad to be home again and to be able to wander as I pleased. The following letters are in order as received by my mother. The original telegram has not survived, but it read; “Deeply regret to inform you your son Sgt. H. Wagner failed to return from an operational flight over enemy territory this morning. Pending receipt of written notification no information to be given to the Press.”
[page break]
90
No. 51 Squadron,
R.A.F. Station,
Snaith,
Nr. Goole,
Yorkshire.
Reference:- 51S/801/251/P.1.
18th December, 1944.
Dear Mrs. Wagner
It is with the deepest regret that I have to confirm the news already conveyed to you by telegram to-day, that your Son, 1604744 Sergeant H.W. Wagner, failed to return from an operational flight over enemy territory this morning.
Your Son was acting in his capacity of Navigator in an aircraft which took-off during the early hours of this morning to deliver an attack on a target at Duisburg, and I regret that nothing was heard of the aircraft or its crew after the time of take-off.
The loss of this crew is a sad blow to all of us here, particularly so in the case of your Son, who was looked upon as one of our outstanding Navigators, and who commanded the respect of all. We cherish the hope that he and his companions may yet prove to be safe and well, though prisoners of war.
Your Son's personal belongings have been gathered together by the Station Effects Officer and forwarded to the R.A.F. Central Depository, who will send them on to you in due course.
I would like to add that the request in the telegram notifying you of the casualty to your Son was included with the object of avoiding his chance of escape being prejudiced in case he was still at large. This is not to say that any information is available, but it is a precaution which is adopted in the case of all missing personnel.
Please accept the deepest sympathy of myself and all the Officers and Men of the Squadron.
Yours Sincerely
H.A.R. Holford
Wing commander, Commanding,
[underlined] No. 51 Squadron, R.A.F. [/underlined]
…./Over.
[page break]
91
AIR MINISTRY,
(casualty Branch),
73-77 OXFORD STREET,
LONDON, W.1
22 December, 1944.
Madam,
I am commanded by the Air Council to express to you their great regret on learning that your son, Sergeant Henry Wolfe Wagner, Royal Air Force, is missing as the result of air operations on 18th December, 1944, when a Halifax aircraft in which he was flying as navigator set out for action over Duisberg [sic] and failed to return.
This does not necessarily mean that he is killed or wounded, and if he is a prisoner of war he should be able to communicate with you in due course. Meanwhile enquiries are being made through the International Red Cross committee, and as soon as any definite news is received you will be at once informed.
/If
Mrs. J. E. Wagner,
14, Western Avenue,
Henley-on-Thames,
Oxon.
[page break]
If any information regarding your son is received by you from any source you are requested to be kind enough to communicate it immediately to the Air Ministry.
The air Council desire me to convey to you their sympathy in your present anxiety.
I am, Madam,
Your obedient Servant,
Charles Evans
98
[photograph]
A photograph of the cemetery in Holland, sent to me a few months after the war by Mrs Worthington, mother of our mid-upper gunner.
[photograph]
A close-up of the crew's graves before proper head-stones were fitted.
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99
[photograph] Some of the graves. This photo was taken about 1982 by Mrs. Worthington's daughter, Joan.
In 1989, I saw a notice in “Airmail” inserted by a man who had visited Venray and seen the graves of 12 R.A.F. Men. He named them, and offered to send photos to relatives. I told him the names of my crew and the circumstances that led to their being there, and he sent me the following photographs.
[photograph] Warrant Officer W.A. Bates, pilot.
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100
[photograph] Flight Sergeant L.G. Roberts, Bomb-aimer.
[photograph] Sgt. E. Berry, Flight engineer
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101
[Photograph] Sgt. T.W. Worthington, Mid-upper gunner.
[photograph] Sgt. R. Thomas, Rear-gunner.
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102
Shortly after the war, I applied to join the Caterpillar Club, membership of which is limited to those who have saved their lives by means of a parachute. The club was founded by Leslie Irvin, who invented the modern parachute.
[inserted] Membership card to the Caterpillar Club. [/inserted]
In the middle of June, I went to stay for a couple of days [inserted] with John [/inserted] and his long-time girl-friend (now his wife) Vilna. They lived in a cottage at Potterne Park Farm, Devizes, Wiltshire. A very pleasant visit it was, the last time but one that I saw them for 44 years. But more of that later. We lost touch; it shouldn't have happened, but this sort of thing often did.
My leave expired on 11 July 1945, and I returned to Cosford. This was only for a few days, for the purposes of medical examination, documentation and getting fitted out in full kit. It was a time of unease, restlessness and doubt. I knew only one other person there, Frankie Sedgewick, who had been with John and me at Barkau and Luckenwalde. He was a great virtuoso on the piano and the accordion; although he could not read music, he knew all the tunes, and had a wonderful sense of rhythm. Before we left Barkau for the march, he had become the possessor of a beautiful accordion, thanks to the Red Cross. On the point of departure from Barkau, he slashed it with a knife, tears streaming down his face, and said: “I can't carry it, and those bastards aren't having it.”
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and said: “I can’t carry it, and those bastards aren’t having it.” He had been a member of a Stirling crew, shot down dropping supplies at Arnhem. The aircraft belly-landed on a road, skated along it and ground to a halt. The crew evacuated – Frankie into a ditch on one side, the other six into a ditch on the opposite side, all under fire. The six were on the British side and got away; Frankie was on the German side and got pulled in.
By the 15th of July, I was back on leave again, until the end of August. I spent those six weeks working on harvesting at Dick Green’s farm, playing golf, going swimming, and generally having a relaxed and leisurely time among friends. The war with Japan ended after the dropping of the two atom-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6th and 8th, as it was all over. On 29 August I reported to R.A.F. Wittering and remained there for nine days, but there was nothing much to do and no real reason for being there – the only purpose it served was to demonstrate to us that we were in fact still in the Air Force. Then there was a 48-hour pass, for which I went home, then back to Wittering again, then off on leave again.
In October, I went up to Liverpool to stay with Mr. Roberts, father of our bomb-aimer. While there, we went to visit the Worthingtons before returning home a few days later, but it was not long before I was back there again, for a fortnight this times, and the affair made good progress. It looked as if this might be it.
I applied for early release from the R.A.F. so as to continue my degree course at Reading University; this was granted, and I was demobilised shortly before Christmas, ready to start at the university again in January 1946.
This would seem to take us to the end of the crosswind leg, and it is now time to turn onto the downwind leg. This one is the longest of all the legs of a circuit, and the most peaceful. Everything should be organised and running smoothly; there is nothing of any urgency requiring to be done, and one may proceed with dignity and decorum towards
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the next turning-point, meanwhile watching the world go by.
[underlined] DOWNWIND LEG. [/underlined]
In January 1946 I returned to Reading University. When I left, I had one year to do for my degree, but now I had two extra terms, which were quite welcome as they gave me an opportunity to settle down again. I was only doing two subjects (as usual for an honours degree) – French and Latin. The French consisted not only of the language itself but also translation into French and from French, classical literature, modern literature, old French, the development of the language from Latin, essays and a considerable amount of reading. In term-time, and even during holidays, I worked very hard, often on into the night. During leisure times, I played a lot of golf, usually with my brother Richard, at Henley Golf Club. He was always a better player than me; where I would be hoping that my second shot finished somewhere on the green, he would be seen picking the spot on the green where he proposed to land his ball. During the summer, I worked on Dick Green’s farm, mainly on harvesting, and often borrowed a gun from him to go rabbiting. Tight rationing was still in force, so a rabbit was always welcome as an alternative to the dreary diet of sausage-meat or fish. Being a hot summer, I frequently went after work for a swim at Shiplake Swimming Baths, on the River Thames.
Joan came down from Liverpool for a week, and I went up to Liverpool and stayed with her family, and also spent a fortnight with them on holiday in North Wales, near Prestatyn. We became engaged during that summer, but early next year it was all over. Looking back, the affair was doomed to failure, because we could see so little of each other, living such a long way apart. There was neither the money nor the time for frequent visits, and the flame flickered and died.
1947 was the year of my final examinations, and I continued to work as hard as ever, reluctant even to give up time to play golf. I did join the University cross-country club, and used to run in
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team matches against other universities and athletics clubs on Saturday afternoons.
In June, I sat the final examinations for my degree, and when the results came out I found I had passed the B.A. with Honours in French, Class II Division 1. I did not expect a Class 1 degree, as these were rarely given. It must have been a close thing, though; some weeks afterwards, I met the Professor of French, Professor Pesseignet, and her said: “I would have liked to give you a First, but there were other considerations.” (He did not specify what they were.) However, Class II Division 1 was classified as a “good Honours degree”, so I was quite satisfied. Class II Division II was a run-of-the-mill degree, and Class III was for those who only just scraped through.
I acquired another motorcycle that summer. I disposed of the old 250 c.c. O.K. Supreme and took over a 500 c.c. high-camshaft MSS Velocette, a far superior machine in every respect. One evening, I went over to Maidenhead to help my friend Geoff Dolphin do some work on his 350 c.c. Royal Enfield. When the job was done, we repaired to the local for some refreshment and got talking at the bar to a Mr. Jupp. He ran a holiday-camp for London youth-clubs in the Isle of Wight, and asked if I would like a job helping in the cookhouse for a few weeks. Having nothing lined up in the way of holidays, I accepted, and went down there several days later. One evening, I was sitting at a table outside, reading, when a girl came and sat down and started reading too. After half an hour, I said: “That’s another book finished,” and stood up to leave. She said: “Would you like to read the paper?”, so I said: “Yes, please”, and she went and got her Daily Mirror. (Years afterwards, she said to me: “I didn’t know how near I was to losing you, offering you the Daily Mirror.”) When it got duck, I said: “It’s too dark to read any more. Shall we take a ride up to Culver Point?” and that is how it all started. Before leaving her that evening, I said: “Are you committed to anything tomorrow?” When she said no, I said: “I have to go up to Brading in the morning to get the cakes for the canteen. Then we could go along to the other end of the island, to the Needles and Alum Bay, and have
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something to eat on the way back. Would you come with me?” By the time that day was over, the friendship was pretty firmly established. Many years later, I said to her: “Why me?”, and she said: “I liked the look of you.” Honest to the nth degree.
She also said: “I threw myself at you, didn’t I?”. I said: “No, you didn’t throw yourself. All you did was open the door. What you were saying, in effect, was: “If you like what you see, do something about it.” The ball was always in my court, it was always up to me to make the next move, if I wanted to.”
The following day, as she was leaving for London again, I said: “Write to me”, and she said: “No, you write to me,” and I realised that of course it was not up to the girl to do the pushing, that was my job. This is the photograph she gave me as she left, with her address on the back. [photograph not included]
[page break]
[certificate]
UNIVERSITY OF READING.
It is hereby certified that HENRY W. WAGNER has been duly admitted to the Degree of Bachelor of Arts of this University. (Honours School of French Class II Division 1)
[signed] E. Smith [/signed] Registrar.
July 5, 1947. [/certificate]
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[photograph] [inserted] All my love, Darling, Joan xxxx [/inserted]
and this is one I acquired later, taken when she was a little girl.
[photograph]
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108
And so the affair progressed; we were very happy in each other’s company, and I quickly got to know her as a gentle, understanding, kind-hearted, undemanding and completely straightforward and honest, completely unselfish, and those characteristics remained with her, unchanged, for as long as she lived. There were never any words of anger, recrimination, accusation or petty temper between us. It did not take me long to realise I had got a good one.
Sometimes, I went up to London, to her home, for the week-end, sometimes she came to Henley, and we saw each other very frequently.
In the autumn of 1947, I went back to the University for one more year, to take a Diploma in Education, a necessary qualification for teaching in grammar schools. After finishing the course, I toyed with the idea of going into the R.A.F. Education Branch, but by the time the paper-work was all completed, I found out that the main requirements were for teachers of English, mathematics and physics. By that time, it was too late to apply for jobs in state-schools, but I got a job at Bodington College, Leatherhead, Surrey, a private boarding-school for boys 11 - 18, and started there in September 1948.
[photograph]
I taught mainly French and Latin, with some English, mathematics
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[missing photograph or document]
and geography. The classes were small, the fees high. The boys all came from upper-class families, and were easy to get on with. Masters were in contact with them a great deal in leisure-times. I used to run a model aircraft club, and we flew diesel-engined control-line models on the playing-filed when weather permitted, and built or repaired them on
[page break]
[University of Reading Diploma]
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110
dark evenings or in wet and windy weather. I was in charge of Rugby Football, and this led to many discussions on team selection and tactics. There were lessons in the evening instead of the afternoon, leaving afternoons free for games - I either played or refereed. There was always a match against another school or a club on Saturdays and sometimes on Wednesdays as well. In the summer I umpired cricket.
The headmaster, the Reverend J. G. Wilkie, was a man of liberal views on education, only hard on those who transgressed the boundaries of good conduct and gentlemanly behaviour. Prefects were allowed to smoke in their studies, and to brew coffee, and often when I was on duty and had seen all the boys into their dormitories and put the lights out, some of the prefects would say: “Come in and have a smoke and a cup of coffee, Mr. Wagner, and we’ll talk about Saturday’s team.”
On alternate week-ends, provided I was not on duty at the school, I used to go up to London and stay at Joan’s; the other week-ends, I went by motorcycle to Henley, and Joan came to Henley by bus, and the love-affair progressed well. One day she said to me: “Henry, are you going to marry me?” I had taken this for granted, it had never crossed my mind that it might be otherwise. I realised that a girl needs to have it put in so many words, and it was remiss of me not to have made the situation clear before. So it was settled, and the wedding was fixed for August 1949. The greatest worry was where we were going to live, as only four years after the war housing was desperately short, and we had no money to start buying a house. Talking the matter over with the Headmaster, he said that there was accommodation available in one of the blocks round the old stable-yard, which we could have at a low rent. So I spent all my available spare time redecorating this, and eventually it looked quite nice. Furniture and carpets were acquired on hire-purchase - you had to have “dockets” to get these, - and Joan
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made curtains and gradually accumulated the bare necessities. I had a radio of my own, but televisions and washing-machines were almost unheard-of, and we did not hanker after them. Nor did we have a refrigerator.
[photograph] Badingham College, from the playing-fields. [/photograph]
[photograph] My Velocette, in the stable-yard. [/photograph]
[photograph] Joan on the motorcycle, taken at Henley. [/photograph]
[photograph] Joan on holiday (right) with her friend Joan Rampton. [/photograph]
Joan made her own wedding-dress and the bridesmaids’ dresses. Joan Rampton was the chief bridesmaid, and her (Joan Rampton’s) little sister the second bridesmaid. For our honeymoon, we
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would be going to Bantry, in the far south-west corner of Ireland. These are the photos we had taken for our passports. [two photographs]
The wedding took place at 11 a.m. at Holy Trinity Church, Henley-on-Thames. Richard was my best man.
[photograph of the bride and groom]
[page break]
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[photograph of the wedding party]
[photograph] Leaving the reception. [/photograph]
This was held at a hotel just
[page break]
114
across the street from Henley station, so we did not have far to go to the train. Train to Fishguard, overnight ferry to Cork, bus to Bantry.
On our return a fortnight later, we settled in to The Cottage, Badingham College, Leatherhead, Surrey. One of my first jobs was to go down to the bank to get out some money. I came out of the bank, and was handing over some of the money to Joan when the cashier came out. He said: “Did you know your account was overdrawn, Mr Wagner?” I must have miscalculated somehow, and I said: “No. I suppose you had better have this back, hadn’t you?”, and he said: “Yes, I suppose I had,” and took it. Joan said: “Right, I’ll see about a job then,” and immediately went and got herself a job in a grocery shop. What with her money, an advance on my salary, and a loan of £60 from my brother John, we were able to carry on until we got ourselves sorted out. But money was always scarce, as I suppose it is for nearly every newly-married couple, and there were no luxuries. We used to go to the cinema twice a week – no golf, no drinking, and holidays were in caravans or boarding-houses, travelling by motorbike. The furniture was being paid off at just over £9 a month. Food was still severely rationed. We did not ask for much – we had each other, and that was enough.
I enjoyed my work, Joan enjoyed working and being with other people. She always liked to have other people round her, and even later in life when money was not so important, preferred to be working than staying at home. We still went to London and to Henley on alternate week-ends.
The even tenor of life continued at Badingham for another three years. In the summer of 1952, on our return from holiday in Colwyn Bay, the headmaster said that, owing to expansion, he needed part of our house. That meant we would have to go. There was no chance of accomodation[sic] in the “Stockbroker Belt” of Leatherhead, so I gave in my notice for December 1952.
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and set about applying for jobs in the vicinity of Henley, as my mother was willing to put us up until we got sorted out. I got one at Earley, on the outskirts of Reading, at Woodley Hill Grammar School, a boys’ school. This meant a journey of seven miles by motorbike, but that was no hardship except on bitter winter days or in heavy rain. Richard did some auctioneering for a firm in Henley, and they had space to store our furniture above the auction-rooms, so that cost us nothing.
So in January 1953 I started work at Woodley Hill, and Joan got herself a job in a shop in Henley. Richard, being a partner in a firm of estate-agents, would keep an eye open for possible living accomodation[sic] for us, but this was still in extremely short supply. After a few months, nothing seemed to be coming up, so I began to apply for a job in South Africa, where the conditions of life would be better and we would find somewhere of our own to live. Joan was in agreement – she was always willing to try anything, and never raised any objections in major decisions of this sort. But no sooner had I started to apply than Richard came up with something that suited us absolutely. A golfing friend of his, Gerald Mundey, lived with his mother and his sister Joy on a big estate up in the woods at Harpsden, about 1½ miles out of Henley; the gardener’s cottage had become vacant, and we could have it at the modest rent of £10/month. So we moved our furniture up there and settled in. It was fairly isolated, but we got on well with the Mundeys and Joan was still out all day working. I started playing golf again and joined Marlow rugby club. Looking back, it was selfish of me to be out at rugby on Saturday afternoons and often well into the evening, and then go golfing on Sunday mornings, but Joan never complained, although she would have been perfectly right to do so. Once, playing rugby against Kodak, up in London, I broke my right ankle, and had to spend ten days in Henley hospital while it was mending. I had a few more days at home, then went back to work, riding the motorcycle with one leg encased in plaster, the leg which operated the gear-change lever.
[page break]
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[photograph] Marlow Rugby Club First XV. [/photograph]
I played right-hand prop, and sometimes hooker when the need arose. The regular hooker was Budworth, on the right in the front row. He used to fly Beaufighters against terrorists in Malaya before he came to us. His wife usually accompanied us on coach-trips, and was one of the few women I ever knew who drank pints of bitter. Colin Gill, left in the front row, had a glass eye; in the course of one game, it dropped out into the mud and the game had to stop while we looked for it. The bath accomodation[sic] adjoining the changing-room was a deep recess about ten feet square sunk in the concrete, and we would settle down in the hot water after a game with pints of beer standing on the concrete behind us. After a particularly muddy game, the contents of the bath would be not so much hot water as thin liquid mud. Songs were sung. An invitation came once through the post
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for me to attend a stag-party. At the bottom of the card it said “Singing by our own choir.” Joan said: “That doesn’t sound very exciting, singing by our own choir,” and I said: “Oh, but you don’t know what our own choir will be singing.”
Many such memories of Marlow Rugby Club come back to me, such as the stag-party that got out of hand; the piano was adjudged not to be functioning correctly. Beer was poured into it without producing any improvement, so the instrument itself was dismantled, without finding the cause, and by that time nobody in a state to re-assemble it. After that, the committee put a stop to further stag-parties. Then there was the occasion when a large stag-party, complete with strippers, was held in one of the pavilions at Twickenham, attended by several clubs, and those in the know will recall that I made a libation to the gods of rugby-football on the centre spot of the pitch. The amount of pleasure I have had throughout my life from golf and rugby is really incalculable. Before I stopped playing rugby, I was made an honorary life-member, for services to the club. The club ran seven teams.
[Marlow Rugby Union Football Club card front]
[page break]
[Marlow Rugby Union Football Club card page 1]
[page break]
[Marlow Rugby Union Football Club card pages 2 and 3]
[page break]
117
for me to attend a stag-party. At the bottom of the card it said “Singing by our own choir.” John said: “That doesn't sound very exciting, singing by our own choir,” and I said: “Ah, but you don't know what our own choir will be singing.”
Many such memories of Marlow Rugby Club come back to me, such as the stag-party that got out of hand; the piano was adjudged not to be functioning correctly. Beer was poured into it without producing any improvement, so the instrument itself was dismantled, without finding the cause, and by that time nobody was in a state to re-assemble it. After that, the committee put a stop to further stag-parties. Then there was the occasion when a large stag-party, complete with strippers, was held in one of the pavilions at Twickenham, attended by several clubs, and those in the know will recall that I made a libation to the gods of rugby-football on the centre spot of the pitch. The amount of pleasure I have had throughout my life from golf and rugby is really incalculable. Before I stopped playing rugby, I was made an honorary life-member, for services to the club. The club ran seven teams.
Fixtures Sept. 1964 – April 1965
1st XV Captain: R.J. WELSFORD
“A” XV Captain: G.L. SPINKS
EX “A” XV Captain: P. TRUNKFIELD
“B” XV Captain: D.L.G. THOMAS
CYGNETS XV Captain: R.H. RAGG
[page break]
117
[Rugby fixtures Sept 1964 – April 1965]
[Rules of the ruby club]
[page break]
118
Eventually and inevitably there was an addition to the family. Helen was born at the maternity unit in Henley, and Joan was so proud of her, and she was certainly a lovely little girl. These photographs were taken while we were still living at Red Hatch Cottage, some in the garden, some on holiday.
[six photographs]
[page break]
119
[seven photographs]
[page break]
120
[six photographs]
[page break]
121
[two photographs]
We had been at Red Hatch Cottage about four years. Happy days though they were, money was still tight. I had the motorcycle fitted with a sidecar on Helen's arrival, so we could still get about. But we wanted a home of our own, and there did not seem to be much hope of getting one. I used to go to the bank on Saturday mornings to get out enough money for the week; the bank balance was often down to below £5, and I dreaded a month that had five Saturdays in it.
One day, I saw on the staff-room notice-board a circular from the National Union of Teachers asking anyone who had any salary queries to get in touch with them. For most of my time at Badingham the school was not recognised by the Ministry of Education and did not therefore count as reckonable services under the regulations. However, before I left, it was inspected and recognised. I put the point to the N.U.T. - was there any possibility of having this service all recognised for the purposes of stepping up the salary scale? They replied that it was up to the Local Education Authority. So I put the matter to the Berkshire Education Authority. I was called to the telephone one day at school – yes, they would recognise all that service, put me four steps up the ladder and give back-pay also for those four years. This amounted to some £270. I could hardly believe what I was hearing. When I got home, I said to Joan; “They rang me up from Shire Hall today. They won't recognise that service.” Terribly disappointed though she must have
[page break]
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been, she put her arm round me and said; “Oh well, you tried.” All the time we were married, she never made me feel inadequate, not good enough for her, although I sometimes felt that was indeed the case – she deserved better than me. She never was sarcastic, never criticised me or made me feel small. All she had to know was that it was my best that I was doing; it may not have been a very good best sometimes, but as long as it was the best, that was sufficient. But even if things turned out well and I had not done my absolute best, I would be gently reminded. Her whole philosophy of life was based on love; she believed in being in love, she loved her husband, family and home. And in return, she always knew she was well loved. I was glad to be able to give her the happiness and security that she needed. Indeed, our marriage was secure in every respect - “Secure:- without care or anxiety, free from fear or danger, safe, confident, in safe keeping, of such strength as to ensure safety” (Chambers's Twentieth Century Dictionary.) I found this cutting many years later, tucked into Joan's writing -case; it obviously appealed to her, embodying as it does her whole philosophy.
[newspaper cutting – from the New Testament]
But I digress; I shall return to this theme later. Hiding her disappointment, and knowing I must have been disappointed too, she didn't complain but tried to console me with: “Oh well, you tried.” I let it ride for a few minutes, then told her the good news, and she was absolutely delighted. We would have enough money for the necessary 10% deposit on a house and to pay for the removal. There would be nothing to spare for the extras that would be needed, but these things would come in the fulness [sic] of time. So it was not long before we were looking around at new houses being built, and eventually settled for one on Ravensbourne Drive,
[page break]
123
Woodley, about three miles out of Reading and not far from the school where I worked. We used to go over on Sunday afternoons and see the progress being made, and as soon as it was ready we moved in. There was a great deal to be done getting the interior comfortable to live in, but Joan was a great home-maker. The garden was a wilderness containing a lot of builder's rubble, but I set to work to make it look nice and pleasant.
[two photographs]
Ravensbourne Drive, taken from outside our house, looking down the road (left) and up the road (right)
[two photographs]
The back garden. The back of the house.
[page break]
124
It was a big job getting the garden in order, but I was much indebted to John for a great amount of help – he used to come over and give a hand whenever he had the time. We mixed and laid concrete along the back of the house and at the side, and made the path running up the garden. I bought a concrete sectioned garage which we put up. I laid lawns, made a sand-pit for Helen, made the trellis and put climbing-roses on it to divide off the vegetable-garden, and planted the willow-tree. Made a coal-bunker too – there was no central-heating in those days. A whole range of kitchen cabinets as well – it was a matter of making things then rather than buying them. And always words of praise from Joan for what had been achieved.
Joan used to take Helen out to a nearby park in the afternoons, where there were swings, and it was there that she met Jean Hindley, who had her little girl with her. Joan was never backward in making friends (Think again how she got to know me), and Jean and Derek have been friends ever since. I always call into see them when I go down to Woodley, and there is always a warm welcome. We also made friends with Babs and Dave Read who lived a couple of doors along, and held lively parties
[eleven lines obscured by photograph]
had pints of mild and bitter, so it was quite obvious he had at least one redeeming feature. He used to be a Petty Officer in the Navy, on the engineering side. As I got to know him better, I
[page break]
125
was happy to consider him a good friend – straightforward, even-tempered, he took life very much as it came. Gradually, other inhabitants of Woodley joined us, and quite a large contingent from Woodley used to go over golfing at Henley – Jim Trevaskis, Bill Spelman, George Wall, Frank Way, Jeff Morgan and Alan Thorngate. I held the post of captain of the Henley Artisans Golfing Society at the time, and for a number of years thereafter. We played matches against the artisan sections of other clubs, and Joan and Anne used to make the sandwiches and come over and organise the teas for us. Good days they were, golfing at Henley in good company. Sunday mornings were the usual time, and after the game we would repair to the Bottle and Glass at Binfield Heath to take pre-prandial refreshment and play darts with the locals. On Friday evenings also we used to go out to one pub or another for beer and darts. And Joan put up with all this without a murmur of protest!
The school moved to new buildings at Winnersh, near Wokingham. In those days, and in such a school, teaching was a pleasant enough occupation and the boys were in general easy enough to get on with. There were exceptions, of course, but in the main they were a decent lot. On a journey from the front of the class to the back it might be necessary to give the odd boy a cuff, but the usual reaction seemed to be: “Fair enough, he caught me out,” and that was the end of it. Not so in these days, though. An action of that sort now would result in reports to the Head, parents up to the school, letters to the Education Department, and so forth. I remember writing on one boy’s report once: “Oafish stupidity is his outstanding characteristic.” At a parents’ evening his father said: “I take exception to this remark, Mr. Wagner. Can you justify it?” “Yes”, I said. “This very morning, when I had got the class settled down to work, he came in late, hurled the door open, which wrenched the door-stop out of the floor, slammed the door, and went to his place without a word of apology.” “Yes”, he said, “I see what you mean. I shall take the matter up with him.” On the other hand, on the last day of the summer term, one of my Sixth Form
[page break]
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French students said: “Would you care to some out for a farewell drink, Mr. Wagner?”, so off we went. This would cause some raised eyebrows these days. I remember saying to him: “Two years ago, you were an inky little lad in the Fifth Form, now you’re a gentleman,” and that was the way with many of them.
While at The Forest Grammar School, my head of department was Keith Fletcher, an extremely able man and easy to get on with. He expected his staff to do their job competently and conscientiously, he consulted and advised, he did not lay down the law but what he said went, and he did not suffer fools gladly. He was a friend in those times, and has remained a friend every since. We see each other from time to time.
In the fulness of time, there was an addition to the family, and Philip made his appearance. In those days, it was the practice for only the first child to be born in hospital, so Philip was born at home. [Three photographs of Henry with his children]
[page break]
127
[Six photographs of the family]
[page break]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Henry Wagner's life story. Part one
Description
An account of the resource
Hand written by Henry, Part 1 covers his early life and time at university. It goes on to cover in some detail his time in the RAF, his time training in South Africa conversion to the Halifax and operations on 51 Squadron. It also covers his time as a prisoner of war and his post war career as a teacher in both England and Kenya. This part also covers his marriage, two children and their first house.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Henry Wagner
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
153 hand written pages with photographs
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Memoir
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BWagnerHWWagnerHWv1-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
South Africa
Germany
Kenya
Germany--Winterfeld
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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David Bloomfield
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Henry was born Irish but later became a naturalised British Citizen. He talks of his early life in Ireland, going to school at Henley-on-Thames and went to Reading University. (Higher School Certificate p15). He joined the University Air Squadron. After passing his final year examinations he was called up and joined the RAF. (Photograph p 21).
He passed through the Aircrew Reception Centre in London, Brighton, and Liverpool, Henry found himself sailing to Durban, South Africa. He tried to become a pilot but failed a test in a Tiger Moth so was placed in the Navigational Training School. He met Graham Walker while there. On 23 December 1943 Henry became a Sergeant with a Navigator’s brevet. (Navigator brevet p27).
After moving through RAF West Freugh, Scotland, Henry was then posted to the OTU RAF Abingdon to learn more complex skills in addition to lectures about the Luftwaffe, Intelligence information and ‘Escape and Evasion’. Henry crewed up at Abingdon. (Photographs of crew p 34-5). The next move was to 4 Group Training School, and this confirmed for the crew that they would be flying Halifax Mark 3 aircraft. Here lectures were ‘all good stuff’.
The penultimate move was to 1952 HCU RAF Marston Moor to learn about the Halifax Mark 3 and meet Sergeant Eric Berry, flight engineer. (Photograph p37). Henry describes the duties of the navigator, the use of the ‘Master Bomber’, some of the anti-aircraft techniques that were used in the technological war. (Photograph using of the H2S p39, pieces of the ‘Window’ radar defence p50).
Finally, they moved to RAF Snaith. There Henry took part in raids on Julich near Essen x 2, Hagen (an aborted mission), Soest, in the Ruhr Valley, Duisburg x 2, Aachen, Munster, and Osnabruck. There was a degree of acceptance that they were statistically going to die during their duties.
Henry was returning from a raid when he appraised the pilot that there was a fire onboard. The pilot to decide to abandon the aeroplane, and Henry parachuted from his plane. He landed in the garden of a domestic house and explains the contents of his evasion-pack. He was captured, moved to the Aircrew Interrogation Centre was in Oberursel and then onto Stalag Luft 7 Bankau, Silesia. Here he rejoined John Trumble with whom Henry had undergone part of his training. There was an army padre at the camp and the influence Captain John Collins had on the POWs both at Stalag Luft 7 and when the men were marching to other camps is described. They arrived at Stalag 3A, Luckenwaldwe. Henry describes Red Cross parcel, daily life there, attacks of dysentery, and ‘Goon-baiting’.
When the ‘gen’ revealed the Russians were only 12 miles from the camp, the Germans abandoned them, and RAF Wing Commander Beamont assumed command of the camp. On 22 April 1945, the Russians arrived. They refused to release the POWs, so Henry and John walked 7 miles westwards where they were met by the Americans and taken to the Reception Centre, Schonebeck.
With VE declared and de-lousing completed they were returned to RAF Wing, Aylebury. He shows the graves of his crew (photographs p 99-101).
On demobbing Henry resumed his university studies and became a teacher. He married and had children. Henry went to a Stalag Luft 7 reunion in 1982.
Claire Campbell
1652 HCU
51 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aerial photograph
air gunner
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bomb aimer
briefing
C-47
Caterpillar Club
coping mechanism
crewing up
debriefing
Dulag Luft
evading
final resting place
flight engineer
Flying Training School
Gee
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
incendiary device
killed in action
Master Bomber
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
missing in action
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Acaster Malbis
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Snaith
RAF West Freugh
recruitment
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
target indicator
target photograph
the long march
Tiger Moth
training
Whitley
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/934/36456/BLovattPHastieRv1.2.pdf
9b3858b8c21f871c9674fb0bb2df1994
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lovatt, Peter
Dr Peter Lovatt
P Lovatt
Description
An account of the resource
117 items. An oral history interview with Peter Lovatt (b.1924, 1821369 Royal Air Force), his log book, documents, and photographs. The collection also contains two photograph albums. He flew 42 operations as an air gunner on 223 Squadron flying B-24s. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1338">Album One</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2135">Album Two</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Nina and Peter Lovatt and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-27
2019-09-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lovatt, P
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hastie DFC: The Life and Times of a Wartime Pilot
Description
An account of the resource
An incomplete biography of Roy Hastie. Only pages 1 to 46, 104 to 106, 128 to 133 and 34 additional unnumbered pages are included.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Lovatt
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
United States
Rhode Island--Quonset Point Naval Air Station
Bahamas--Nassau
New York (State)--New York
Bahamas--New Providence Island
England--Harrogate
Scotland--Perth
Scotland--Glasgow
Scotland--Glasgow
England--Warrington
England--Blackpool
Luxembourg
France
Belgium
Netherlands
France--Dunkerque
England--Dover
England--Grantham
England--Torquay
Wales--Aberystwyth
Iceland
Greenland
Sierra Leone
Russia (Federation)--Murmansk
Singapore
France--Saint-Malo
Denmark
Sweden
Germany--Lübeck
Netherlands--Ameland Island
England--Grimsby
Germany--Helgoland
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Lundy Island
Germany--Cologne
North Carolina
North Carolina--Cape Hatteras
Aruba
Curaçao
Iceland--Reykjavík
Greenland--Narsarssuak
Canada
Québec--Montréal
Rhode Island
New York (State)--Buffalo
Gulf of Mexico
Caribbean Sea
Virginia
Florida--Miami
Cuba--Guantánamo Bay Naval Base
Puerto Rico--San Juan
Cuba
Florida--West Palm Beach
Cuba--Caimanera
India
Sierra Leone--Freetown
Jamaica
Jamaica--Kingston
Jamaica--Montego Bay
Virginia--Norfolk
Québec--Montréal
Washington (D.C.)
Newfoundland and Labrador
Trinidad and Tobago--Trinidad
North America--Saint Lawrence River
Newfoundland and Labrador--Happy Valley-Goose Bay
Bahamas
Florida
New York (State)
Great Britain
Ontario
Québec
Germany
Russia (Federation)
Trinidad and Tobago
North America--Niagara Falls
Europe--Frisian Islands
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Devon
England--Kent
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Russia (Federation)--Arkhangelʹskai︠a︡ oblastʹ
Virginia--Hampton Roads (Region)
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Personal research
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
88 printed sheets
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BLovattPHastieRv1
8 Group
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-24
B-25
Beaufighter
Bismarck
C-47
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
evacuation
Flying Training School
Gee
Gneisenau
Goldfish Club
ground personnel
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Harvard
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
Hudson
Initial Training Wing
navigator
Nissen hut
Oboe
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Catterick
RAF Cranwell
RAF Kinloss
RAF Leuchars
RAF North Coates
RAF Odiham
RAF Oulton
RAF Padgate
RAF Prestwick
RAF South Cerney
RAF St Eval
RAF Thornaby
RAF Thorney Island
RAF Windrush
Roosevelt, Franklin Delano (1882-1945)
Scharnhorst
Spitfire
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Whitley
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/934/36457/BLovattPHastieRv2.1.pdf
295406378e70aa4d2aeb43baeaddc085
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lovatt, Peter
Dr Peter Lovatt
P Lovatt
Description
An account of the resource
117 items. An oral history interview with Peter Lovatt (b.1924, 1821369 Royal Air Force), his log book, documents, and photographs. The collection also contains two photograph albums. He flew 42 operations as an air gunner on 223 Squadron flying B-24s. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/1338">Album One</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2135">Album Two</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Nina and Peter Lovatt and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-27
2019-09-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lovatt, P
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hastie DFC: The Life and Times of a Wartime Pilot
Description
An account of the resource
A biography of Roy Hastie.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Lovatt
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2003-10
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
United States
Rhode Island--Quonset Point Naval Air Station
Bahamas--Nassau
New York (State)--New York
Bahamas--New Providence Island
Great Britain
England--Harrogate
Scotland--Perth
Scotland--Glasgow
England--Warrington
England--Blackpool
Luxembourg
France
Belgium
Netherlands
France--Dunkerque
England--Dover
England--Grantham
England--Torquay
Wales--Aberystwyth
Iceland
Greenland
Sierra Leone
Russia (Federation)--Murmansk
Singapore
France--Saint-Malo
Denmark
Sweden
Germany--Lübeck
Netherlands--Ameland Island
England--Grimsby
Germany--Helgoland
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Lundy Island
Germany--Cologne
North Carolina
North Carolina--Cape Hatteras
Aruba
Curaçao
Iceland--Reykjavík
Greenland--Narsarssuak
Canada
Québec--Montréal
Rhode Island
New York (State)--Buffalo
Gulf of Mexico
Caribbean Sea
Virginia
Florida--Miami
Cuba--Guantánamo Bay Naval Base
Puerto Rico--San Juan
Cuba
Florida--West Palm Beach
Cuba--Caimanera
India
Sierra Leone--Freetown
Jamaica
Jamaica--Kingston
Jamaica--Montego Bay
Virginia--Norfolk
Washington (D.C.)
Newfoundland and Labrador
Northern Ireland--Limavady
England--Chatham (Kent)
Newfoundland and Labrador--Gander
Gibraltar
England--Leicester
Massachusetts--Boston
Egypt--Alamayn
Algeria--Algiers
Algeria--Oran
Algeria--Bejaïa
Algeria--Annaba
Italy--Sicily
England--Milton Keynes
Germany--Essen
England--Dunwich
Europe--Scheldt River
England--Sizewell
Germany--Hamburg
England--Kent
Germany--Stuttgart
England--Crowborough
Netherlands--Hague
England--Peterborough
England--Bristol
Germany--Homburg (Saarland)
Belgium--Brussels
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Belgium--Liège
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Aschaffenburg
Germany--Castrop-Rauxel
Germany--Mittelland Canal
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Leuna
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Ulm
Germany--Munich
Poland--Szczecin
France--Ardennes
Germany--Bonn
Belgium--Houffalize
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Grevenbroich
Germany--Dülmen
France--Metz
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Zeitz
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
England--Dungeness
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Wiesbaden
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Koblenz
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Worms
Germany--Pforzheim
Germany--Darmstadt
Europe--Lake Constance
Germany--Bergkamen
Germany--Dessau (Dessau)
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
France--Aube
Germany--Augsburg
England--Feltwell
England--Croydon
Norway--Oslo
Sweden--Stockholm
Czech Republic--Prague
Italy--Florence
Portugal--Lisbon
Monaco--Monte-Carlo
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Netherlands--Venlo
Netherlands--Amsterdam
France--Paris
France--Lyon
France--Digne
France--Nevers
France--Lille
Norway--Ålesund
France--Saint-Omer (Pas-de-Calais)
France--Bailleul (Nord)
Belgium--Ieper
Belgium--Mesen
France--Cambrai
France--Somme
France--Arras
France--Lens
France--Calais
Germany--Emden (Lower Saxony)
Netherlands--Vlissingen
France--Brest
France--Lorient
France--La Pallice
Egypt--Suez
Germany--Berlin
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
Cyprus
Turkey--Gallipoli
Black Sea--Dardanelles Strait
Turkey--İmroz Island
Turkey--İzmir
Greece--Lesbos (Municipality)
Greece--Thasos Island
Greece--Chios (Municipality)
Greece--Thasos
Bulgaria
Turkey--Istanbul
Europe--Macedonia
Greece--Kavala
Kenya--Nairobi
Africa--Rhodesia and Nyasaland
Tanzania
Sudan
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Sudan--Kassalā
Eritrea--Asmara
Yemen (Republic)--Perim Island
Ethiopia--Addis Ababa
Sudan--Khartoum
Ghana--Takoradi
Libya--Cyrenaica
Libya--Tobruk
Egypt--Cairo
Iraq
Greece--Crete
Libya--Tripolitania
Tunisia--Mareth Line
Libya--Tripoli
Tunisia--Qaṣrayn
Tunisia--Medenine
Italy--Pantelleria Island
Malta
Italy--Licata
Italy--Brindisi
Italy--Foggia
Italy--Cassino
Italy--Sangro River
Italy--Termoli
Yugoslavia
Croatia--Split
Croatia--Vis Island
Italy--Loreto
Italy--Pescara
Trinidad and Tobago--Trinidad
North America--Saint Lawrence River
Newfoundland and Labrador--Happy Valley-Goose Bay
Bahamas
Florida
Italy
Poland
Massachusetts
New York (State)
Algeria
Tunisia
Libya
Egypt
North Africa
Ontario
Québec
Germany
Croatia
Czech Republic
Ghana
Greece
Kenya
Norway
Russia (Federation)
Turkey
Yemen (Republic)
Portugal
Trinidad and Tobago
North America--Niagara Falls
France--Reims
Europe--Frisian Islands
Germany--Monheim (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lancashire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Greece--Thessalonikē
Germany--Herne (Arnsberg)
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Libya--Banghāzī
Russia (Federation)--Arkhangelʹskai︠a︡ oblastʹ
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Jersey
Virginia--Hampton Roads (Region)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
142 printed sheets
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BLovattPHastieRv2
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
1 Group
100 Group
101 Squadron
157 Squadron
2 Group
214 Squadron
223 Squadron
3 Group
4 Group
6 Group
8 Group
85 Squadron
88 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
B-24
B-25
bale out
Beaufighter
Bismarck
Botha
C-47
Chamberlain, Neville (1869-1940)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
entertainment
evacuation
Flying Training School
Gee
Gneisenau
Goldfish Club
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Harvard
He 111
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hitler, Adolf (1889-1945)
Hudson
Hurricane
Initial Training Wing
Ju 88
Lancaster
love and romance
Martinet
Me 109
Me 110
mine laying
Mosquito
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
navigator
Nissen hut
Oboe
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
Proctor
radar
RAF Banff
RAF Catfoss
RAF Catterick
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dishforth
RAF Farnborough
RAF Horsham St Faith
RAF Kinloss
RAF Leuchars
RAF Lichfield
RAF Lyneham
RAF Manston
RAF North Coates
RAF Oulton
RAF Padgate
RAF Prestwick
RAF Riccall
RAF Silloth
RAF South Cerney
RAF St Eval
RAF Thornaby
RAF Thorney Island
RAF Windrush
RAF Woodbridge
Roosevelt, Franklin Delano (1882-1945)
Scharnhorst
Spitfire
sport
Stirling
Swordfish
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Whitley
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1963/41315/BLazenbyHJLazenbyHJv1.2.pdf
35022f62bb4527b9a7da34bd424ec42f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lazenby, Harold Jack
H J Lazenby
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Lazenby, HJ
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Harold Jack Lazenby DFC (b. 1917, 652033 Royal Air Force) and contains his memoir, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 57, 97 and 7 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Daniel, H Jack Lazenby and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
H Jack Lazenby DFC
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Jack Lazenby's autobiography.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Warrington
England--Wolverhampton
England--Shifnal (Shropshire)
England--London
England--Bampton (Oxfordshire)
England--Witney
England--Oxford
England--Cambridge
France--Paris
England--Portsmouth
England--Oxfordshire
England--Southrop (Oxfordshire)
England--Cirencester
England--Skegness
England--Worcestershire
England--Birmingham
England--Kidderminster
England--Gosport
England--Fareham
England--Southsea
Wales--Margam
Wales--Port Talbot
Wales--Bridgend
Wales--Porthcawl
England--Urmston
England--Stockport
Wales--Cardiff
Wales--Barry
United States
New York (State)--Long Island
Illinois--Chicago
England--Gloucester
Scotland--Kilmarnock
England--Surrey
England--Liverpool
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lincoln
Denmark--Anholt
Poland--Gdańsk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Essen
Germany--Kiel
Europe--Mont Blanc
Denmark
England--Hull
Czech Republic--Plzeň
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Mablethorpe
Germany--Cologne
Italy--Turin
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
England--Land's End Peninsula
Italy--San Polo d'Enza
Italy--Genoa
Italy--Milan
Algeria
Algeria--Blida
Algeria--Atlas de Blida Mountains
England--Cambridge
England--Surrey
England--Ramsey (Cambridgeshire)
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Munich
France--Montluçon
Germany--Darmstadt
Scotland--Elgin
England--York
Scotland--Aberdeen
England--Grimsby
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Zeitz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Heide (Schleswig-Holstein)
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Netherlands--Westerschelde
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Bremen
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Belgium
England--Southend-on-Sea
England--Morecambe
England--Kineton
England--Worcester
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
England--London
Italy--La Spezia
France--Dunkerque
Poland--Szczecin
Poland
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Recklinghausen (Münster)
Netherlands
England--Sheringham
England--Redbridge
France--Saint-Nazaire
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Germany
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
United States Army Air Force
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
99 printed sheets
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BLazenbyHJLazenbyHJv1
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lazenby, Harold Jack
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
1654 HCU
20 OTU
207 Squadron
4 Group
5 Group
57 Squadron
617 Squadron
7 Squadron
97 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
B-24
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
briefing
Catalina
Chamberlain, Neville (1869-1940)
crewing up
debriefing
demobilisation
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
Distinguished Service Order
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
entertainment
flight engineer
flight mechanic
Flying Training School
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Hampden
hangar
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hudson
Hurricane
Ju 88
killed in action
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
Master Bomber
Me 110
Me 262
mechanics engine
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
Oboe
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Barkstone Heath
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Benson
RAF Bourn
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Colerne
RAF Cosford
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Elvington
RAF Fairford
RAF Halton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melton Mowbray
RAF Mepal
RAF Oakington
RAF Padgate
RAF Pershore
RAF Scampton
RAF Silverstone
RAF St Athan
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Swinderby
RAF Talbenny
RAF Tangmere
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Uxbridge
RAF Valley
RAF Warboys
RAF Wigsley
RAF Wing
recruitment
Resistance
Spitfire
sport
Stirling
target indicator
training
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Victoria Cross
Wellington
Whitley
Window
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2087/34541/SWeirG19660703v080004.1.pdf
ba25404959efade2494291a5d7a5fa24
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Weir, Greg. Langworthy, Max
Langworthy, GM
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items and fifty-two items in two sub-collections. Collection concerns Flt Lt Geoffrey Maxwell Michell (Max) Langworthy (428848, Royal Australian Air Force). A Halifax pilot, he flew operations on 462 Squadron from November 1944 to April 1945. Collection contains photographs (including two albums in sub-collections), documents and his log book.
Collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
201-04-26
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Weir, G
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
G M (Max) Langworthy - Royal Australian Air Force Flying Log Book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SWeirG19660703v080004
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Australian Air Force Log Book for Max Langworthy, pilot. Covers period 8 January 1943 to 15 February 1958. Includes his training, operations and post-war flying. He was based at RAF Babdown Farm, RAF Bibury, RAF Morton in Marsh, RAF Rufforth, RAF Driffield and RAF Foulsham. Aircraft flown were Tiger Moth, Anson, Oxford, Halifax and Auster. Serving with 462 Squadron he flew 27 operations of which 3 were daylight and 24 night. Operations 12 and onwards were providing radio counter measures. Targets were Walcheren, Dusseldorf, Bochum, Gelsenkirchen, Sterkrade, Essen, Duisburg, Hagen, Soest, Osnabruck, Hamburg, Mannheim, Cochem, Mainz, Heilbronn, Krefeld, Neuss, Kaiserlautern, Dortmund-Ems canal, Frankfurt, Stade, Lubeck and Wangerooge. He also flew 6 Cook's Tours flights. His pilot for his first 'second dickie' operation was Flight Lieutenant Cuttriss.<br /><br /><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW226334026 BCX0">This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No </span><span class="ContextualSpellingAndGrammarError SCXW226334026 BCX0">better quality</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW226334026 BCX0"> copies are available.</span>
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10-29
1944-11-02
1944-11-04
1944-11-06
1944-11-21
1944-11-28
1944-11-30
1944-12-02
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-12
1945-01-01
1945-01-14
1945-01-17
1945-01-22
1945-01-28
1945-02-02
1945-02-20
1945-02-22
1945-02-24
1945-03-01
1945-03-03
1945-03-05
1945-03-13
1945-04-02
1945-04-23
1945-04-25
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
1663 HCU
21 OTU
462 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
Cook’s tour
crash
Flying Training School
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Driffield
RAF Foulsham
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Rufforth
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1518/28905/LMellefontGJ240907v1.2.pdf
c3c68519d05f9fbf29d812d6cddee532
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mellefont, Gilbert John
G J Mellefont
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mellefont, GJ
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. The collection concerns Gilbert John Mellefont (b. 1924), and contains his log book and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 50 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Trevor Spark the donor] and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
G J Mellefont’s flying log book for navigator’s air bomber air gunner’s flight engineers
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigator’s air bomber air gunner’s flight engineers for G J Mellefont, air gunner, covering the period from 25 February 1944 to 10 September 1946. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Andreas, RAF Husbands Bosworth, RAF Market Harborough, RAF Scampton, RAF Wigsley, RAF Syerston and RAF Skellingthorpe. Aircraft flown in were Anson, Wellington, Stirling, Lancaster and Dakota. He flew a total of 29 operations with 50 Squadron, 5 daylight and 24 night. Targets were Flushing, Dusseldorf, Gravenhorst, Harburg, Dortmund-Ems Canal, Munich, Heilbronn, Gdynia, Politz, Houffalize, Royan, Merseburg, Karlsruhe, Dresden, Bohlen, Mitteland Canal, Ladbergen, Harburg and Bremen. His pilot on operations was Flight Lieutenant Jones.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944
1945
1946
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LMellefontGJ240907v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Belgium--Houffalize
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
France--Royan
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Harburg (Landkreis)
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Heilbronn
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Leipzig Region
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Mittelland Canal
Germany--Munich
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man
Netherlands--Vlissingen
Poland--Gdynia
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1946
1944-10-07
1944-10-11
1944-11-02
1944-11-03
1944-11-06
1944-11-07
1944-11-11
1944-11-12
1944-11-16
1944-11-21
1944-11-22
1944-11-26
1944-11-27
1944-12-04
1944-12-05
1944-12-17
1944-12-18
1944-12-19
1944-12-21
1944-12-22
1944-12-30
1944-12-31
1945-01-01
1945-01-02
1945-01-04
1945-01-05
1945-01-07
1945-01-08
1945-01-13
1945-01-14
1945-01-15
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-19
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-02-22
1945-02-24
1945-03-05
1945-03-06
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-20
1945-03-21
1945-03-22
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
14 OTU
1654 HCU
50 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
C-47
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Operational Training Unit
RAF Andreas
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Scampton
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
Stirling
strafing
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/194/27306/MAdamsHG424504-170215-11.2.pdf
56856597013d8bd2a52dafda33e2087b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Adams, Herbert
Herbert Adams
H Adams
Herbert G Adams
Description
An account of the resource
88 items. Collection concerns Herbert George Adams DFC, Legion d'Honour (b. 1924, 424509 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 467 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, photographs of people and places, several memoirs about his training and bombing operations, letters to his family, his flying logbook and notes on navigation.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Herbert Adams and catalogued by Nigel Huckins and Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Adams, HG
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] Firestorms [/underlined]
Germany’s second largest city, Hamburg had 4 RAF and 2 U.S. raids from 24th to 29th July ’43. All the Bomber Command raids were of over 700 planes. The 3rd raid, on 26th caused a huge firestorm with heavy casuaties [sic] & damage. Despite hundreds of raids on cities this was the first firestorm. Some of the reasons may have been: a more dense raid (in area & time) from the NW; use of WINDOW nullifying their radar; a compact city with few open spaces; prior air raid damage. However, it was a ‘fluke’ .. no one could predict such a fire. Despite all the raids on cities, before & after that, the next big one was at Damstaat [sic] on Sept 11th, ’44, and no more until 1945 … Magdeburg 16 Jan; Dresden 13th Feb; Pforzheim 23rd Feb. & Wurzburg 16th Mar. There was a great “hoo-ha” after the war about Dresden, but it was, along with Berlin, Leipzig & Chemnitz all threatened by Russians … and raids on them [inserted] were [/inserted] asked for at the Yalta Conference.
Our crew took part in 3 raids, just by 5 Group, with about 200 Lancs, causing firestorms on the cities Stuttgart (12.9.44), Bremerhaven (18.9.44) & Bremen ([deleted] 18.9 [/deleted] 6.10.44) … perhaps because of 5 Group’s good marking, with bombing much condensed in time & space compared to “earlier times”. I have seen no record of these 3 fires in the several books I’ve read about Bomber Command.
“Lutzow.” On 17.12.44 our crew was one of just a few picked to attack the Lutzow & another pocket battleship at Gdynia (Poland) Over the years I’ve tried to find out what happened to the Lutzow … & recently found, on p. 183 of a book “Lancaster, The Biography by 617 Pilot Iveson, when they attacked it with Tallboys & 1000 pounders … “tore a hole in the bottom of Lutzow & she settled to the bottom in shallow water.”
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Firestorms
Description
An account of the resource
Describes operations by Bomber Command and USAAF aircraft to Hamburg from 24 to 28 July 1943. Mentions it was the first firestorm and the use of Window. Writes that the next firestorm was Darmstadt on September 11 1944. Mentions subsequent firestorms at Magdeburg, Dresden, Pforzheim and Wurzburg. Goes on to mention justification for Dresden and lists those operations that his crew took part in. At the end mentions 617 Squadron attack on the Lützow.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
H G Adams
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page handwritten document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MAdamsHG424504-170215-11
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Darmstadt
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Bremerhaven
Germany--Bremen
Poland--Gdynia
Poland
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-07-24
1943-07-28
1944-09-11
1945-01-16
1945-02-13
1945-02-23
1945-03-16
1944-09-12
1944-09-18
1944-10-06
1944-12-17
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
5 Group
617 Squadron
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Tallboy
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/747/40648/BBarffAColingEFv1.1.pdf
ca6ec78a0413aa7061aef552e3fc1f62
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Coling, Eric
E Coling
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. The collection concerns Eric Frederick Coling (1921 - 2018 1481171 Royal Air Force) and contains his memoir, photographs, log book, service documents, letters and an oral history interview. Eric flew operations as a bomb aimer with 50 Squadron before ditching, drifting for several days and time and becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by Lynn Corrigan.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Coling, E
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Eric Coling memoir
"Just a lad with a hole in his jersey"
Description
An account of the resource
Time in the RAF including selection as an observer, enrolment at Lord's Cricket Ground, navigational dead reckoning and meteorology training in Eastbourne and Paignton. Time spent on navigational sorties in Grahamstown, South Africa in Ansons and bombing training in Oxfords. Meeting Winifred Scott after she had been dancing at the MECCA ballroom whilst he was at an Operational Training Unit at RAF Upper Heyford. Training as a bomb aimer, crewing up with navigator Bunny Ridsdale, wireless operator Alex Noble, Canadian pilot Ron Code and rear gunner Ray Moad, flying Vickers Wellingtons, including a leaflet drop over Nantes. Move to 1660 Conversion Unit at RAF Swinderby and joining mid-upper gunner Johnny Boyton and flight engineer Spike Langford and flying Manchesters followed by the four-engined Avro Lancaster. Move to No.5 Group, 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe, serving under Wing Commander Robert McFarlane. Operations to Hamburg, where window was used for the first time, Mannheim, Nuremberg, Milan, operation Hydra at Peenemünde and the ‘Battle of Berlin’. Best man at sister, Muriel's wedding, who worked for the Ministry of Information at the Government Code and Cypher school at Bletchley Park. Further training in formation and low-level flying. Aircraft 'L-Love' hit by flak and landing at RAF Kirmington. Mine laying outside Gdynia harbour, Poland. Attack by JU88's and ditching in the sea. loss of Bunny Ridsdale, rescue by Danish fishermen, detention by German naval officer and transfer to Dulag Luft, the Luftwaffe Interrogation Centre, and transfer to Stalag 4b, as prisoner of war. Meeting American forces, transfer to Brussels in a DC-3 and repatriation to Great Britain in a sterling. Marriage to Winifred Scott, in St. Peter's Church, Harrogate, with Johnny Boyton as best man. Work with London, Midlands & Scottish railway and later move to Tanzania to work for East African Railways.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andy Barff
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-10
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
South Africa
Great Britain
England
England--Lincolnshire
France
France--Nantes
Germany
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Nuremberg
Italy
Italy--Milan
Poland
Poland--Gdynia
Tanzania
South Africa--Makhanda
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Personal research
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Fourteen page printed document with photographs
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BBarffAColingEFv1
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
16 OTU
1660 HCU
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
crewing up
ditching
Dulag Luft
Gee
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
love and romance
Manchester
Master Bomber
mine laying
observer
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
prisoner of war
RAF Kirmington
RAF Padgate
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Swinderby
RAF Upper Heyford
recruitment
training
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/501/22409/MCurnockRM1815605-171114-093.1.pdf
eefebf0061109ce009f489c044488d92
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Curnock, Richard
Richard Murdock Curnock
R M Curnock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Curnock, RM
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-18
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
92 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Richard Curnock (1924, 1915605 Royal Air Force), his log book, letters, photographs and prisoner of war magazines. He flew operations with 425 Squadron before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Richard Curnock and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
A WARTIME LOG
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
A WARTIME LOG FOR BRITISH PRISONERS
Gift from
THE WAR PRISONERS’ AID OF THE Y.M.C.A.
37, Quai Wilson
GENEVA — SWITZERLAND
[page break]
[hand drawn R.A.F. crest]
[hand drawn sketch of a Halifax aircraft]
[page break]
THIS BOOK BELONGS TO
R M CURNOCK. 2108
SUNNYCROFT.
59. MINEHEAD STREET.
LEICESTER
[Y.M.C.A. crest]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
CONTENTS
Addresses of the Crew Page 122
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
1
[private addresses - aircrew]
S. J. Wheadon — G I. Dunsmore — Wesley Skink
[page break]
2
More of The Crew
C. A. Stowell — R. Friskey
[page break]
3
Pals
Gord. McGillway — Robert J H. Prince — A. Laing. — George. F. Cole.
[page break]
4
Basil Cotton — Eric G. Standen. — A. G. Hunter
[page break]
5
Jack French — A. G. Fripp. — W. N. Wiffen — Jim Toole.
[page break]
6
C. A. MELLING. — J. M. Hudson — ALFRED HUNT
[page break]
7
A. J. Gulucke — W Marshall Featherstone — F. A. Bartlett — George. A. Kirk.
[page break]
8
David Y. Young, — D, Stubbs, — W R Forbes,
[page break]
9
John. Waldron.
[page break]
20
[blank page]
[page break]
21
APRIL 20th 1945 To our Engineer “Ginger” Wheadon
Ginge was killed by a bullet from a Typhoon whilst we were resting during a march on April 19th 1945, he was killed instantly. We are trying to get some of his personal kit to bring home for his Mother and Mary his girl. He was buried at a village of Heydekrug, 4 KM. from Gresse where we had just drawn food parcels. He was buried by our Padre and a parson. The time of his death was approximately 12 noon.
Harry looked after one or two of the badly wounded lads, I went back to Ginger only to find that all his kit had been taken and his pockets empty. Some thieving B — had pinched everything he had on him.
I only hope the food
[page break]
22
choked them and all the other things brought them the worst luck possible.
[page break]
23
[blank page]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
[hand drawn sketch of a scantily dressed female firing a bow and arrow]
MAMA MIA
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
[hand drawn sketch of a person holding a tray of steaming tea, the steam is obscuring their face. From out of the steam is another face saying “WHERE”]
[underlined] BREW UP DICK [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
[hand drawn sketch of an air gunner in the rear turret of an aeroplane. The fuselage of the aeroplane is twisted like a corkscrew.]
NOT SO VIOLENT NEXT TIME CHUCK!
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
1st
[underlined] D. H. TIGER MOTH [/underlined]
[hand drawn sketch of a Tiger Moth aeroplane]
[page break]
[hand drawn sketch of a Lysander aeroplane]
[page break]
3rd
[underlined] BOULTON PAUL DEFIANT [/underlined]
[hand drawn sketch of a Defiant aeroplane]
[page break]
[underlined] AVRO ANSON [/underlined]
[hand drawn sketch of an Anson aeroplane]
[page break]
5th
[underlined] AIRSPEED OXFORD [/underlined]
[hand drawn sketch of an Oxford aeroplane]
AIRSPEED OXFORD
[page break]
6th
[underlined] WELLINGTON] [/underlined]
[hand drawn sketch of an Wellington aeroplane]
WELLINGTON
[page break]
[hand drawn sketch of a Halifax aeroplane]
HALIFAX III
[page break]
[hand drawn sketch of a Dakota/DC3/C47 aeroplane]
DAKOTA
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
[hand drawn sketch of a line of washing hanging above 4 cupboards]
[page break]
[hand drawn sketch of a drunken man leaning against a crooked lampost]
OPERATIONS CONTINUING ACCORDING TO [underlined] PLAN [/underlined]
[page break]
55
[blank page]
[page break]
56
[blank page]
[page break]
57
[underlined] A KRIEGIES X COMMANDMENTS [/underlined]
I THOU SHALT NOT REFUSE ANYTHING.
II THOU SHALT DO NO ARBIET. NIETHER [sic] SHALT THOU DO DHOBI. NIETHER [sic] SHALT THOU LABOUR WHEN ON STOOGE NOR DO ANYTHING IN HASTE. THOU SHALT ALWAYS ENDEAVOUR TO BLUDGE.
III REMEMBER THAT THOU KEEP HOLY PARCEL ISSUE DAY.
IV HONOUR THE RED CROSS. Y.M.C.A. AND GENEVA CONVENTION LEST IN THE DAY OF NEED YOUR CRIES GO UNHEEDED.
V THOU SHALT NOT WALK OVER THE WARNING WIRE.
VI THOU SHALT NOT BE FOUND OUT.
VII THOU SHALT GET INTO AS MANY RACKETS AS POSSIBLE.
VIII THOU SHALT EXPOSE THE REST
IX THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOURS SPACE
X THOU SHALT NOT COVERT THY NEIGHBOURS BEDBOARDS, NOR HIS PALLIASE, [sic] NOR HIS DIXIE NOR ANYTHING THAT IS HIS.
[underlined] AMEN [/underlined]
[page break]
62
11
12 didn’t sleep very well about 4 1/2 hrs up 6.30 picked up a 7.10 went to Bristol thru evesham stratford still [one indecipherable word] about breakfast, transport cafe dripping toast into depot [inserted] lunch on way back [/inserted] back to Shawbury for delivery into work at 3.45 did some jobs home about 5.20 went to badminton home just after 10-00 bed at 12 and slept quite well up once only.
13 up at 11.30 breakfast read paper read a part of book Dutch resistance watched [one indecipherable word] long range desert group. Sea of sand Richard Attenborough, went for walk in garden finished The stand started another about Dutch resistance. very good.
14 didn’t sleep well up 10.30 lovely morning went in garden and did a bit of tidying up same after dinner.
15 very cold and windy had log fire sat by but chilblain on toe playing fine tune had to move to other end.
16 after dinner started jigsaw. B out. phone rang got it too late bed 11.30 raining.
17 up 9.30 walk to Branston. Peter phoned from work wonder what budget surveyor B gone to town made self coffee 11.30 Rich cold no Badminton raining would have walked down B hair then TLG home been on own most of today.
[page break]
18th Rough nite with children snowed today most of morning walk in Garden afternoon cut some plaster off to set at toe.
19th Nice morning B at Drop out then hair do finished nuzzle watched snooker went to badminton read a bit bed at 12.
20th up 10.30 was going for walk but it snowed for a while. Went for walked [sic] when finished 1.30 it is snowing again.
21 Not good night snowed again today watched snooker and filmed T.V read book F Forsyth fourth protocol. J Stewart film to finish up bed 12.05
22 up 10.30 after good night went for walk round new st met a number of folks after dinner Peter came in Sues car then their house to watch Rugby France Ireland. F won Wales v Scotland S won then to B & R for tea then played cards till 11.50 nice meal not too [one indecipherable word] home at 12 now watching final of [one indecipherable word] snooker [two indecipherable words]
23
24 Up 7.30 to LRI FOR 8-50 straight in had plaster of saw doc no more treatment, walk as much as possible no [one indecipherable word] 3 wks leg all scaly and white feels funny not much sleep went to badminton Lynden taking me into work Mon
[page break]
64
25 up by 10 cold day tho sunshine finished book 4th Protocol F Forsyth good Frank came in 3pm went 4pm brought book on RAF, been for walk but not very good, starting work Mon.
26th Went for walk as far as Branston foot rather swollen read watched tele Rick & C came told us they have decided to go back to Aussie later this year [two indecipherable words] winch went badminton watched Bowls
27th Two slates of [sic] roof had to prop up fence mine also blown down by Mrs Austin lots of destruction severn bridge closed also Humber an M2 lots of lorries blown over
[page break]
65
[blank page]
[page break]
104
AUGSBURG — FRANKFURT AM MAIN — DAEMSTADT — FALLINGBOSTEL NR HANOVER — THORNI (POLISH CORRIDOR — HYDECRUG [deleted] NR HANOVER [/deleted] EAST PRUSSIA — MARCH - CELLE CROSSED ELBE HEADING FOR LUBECK — LUNEBURG CAMP FLEW HOME
[page break]
105
COSFORD
[page break]
106
RANKS AND SERVICE Nos OF FRIENDS
[page break]
107
[blank page]
[page break]
108
[list]
Letters received and sent.
[page break]
111
[blank page]
[page break]
112
[blank page]
[page break]
113
[blank page]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
WAR PRISONERS AID
AIDE AUX PRISONNIERS DE GUERRE
KRIEGSGEFANGENENHILFE
WORLD’S ALLIANCE OF YOUNG MEN’S CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATIONS
ALLIANCE UNIVERSELLE DES UNIONS CHRÉTIENNES DE JEUNES GENS WELTBUND DER CHRISTLICHEN VEREINE JUNGER MĀNNER
Quai Wilson, 37
GENÈVE (Suisse]
Centre International
Addresse Télégraph, : FLEMGO-GENÈVE
Compte de Chèques postaux : 1. 331
Téléphone 2.70.60
Dear Friend,
After the Canadian and American editions of the War-time Log, here is a special issue for British prisoners of war. Though its format is somewhat different, its purpose is just the same as the others: to bring you greetings from friends and to facilitate your recording some of your experience during these eventful years.
Not everyone will want to use this book as a diary. If you are a writer, here is space for a short story. If you are an artist, you may want to cover these pages with sketches of your camp, caricatures of its important personalities. If you are a poet, major or minor, confide your lyrics to these pages. If you feel that circumstances cramp your style in correspondence, you may write here letters to be carried with you on your return. This book may serve to list the most striking concoctions of the camp kitchen, the records of camp sports or a selection of the best jokes cracked in camp. One man has suggested using the autograph of one of his companions (plus his fingerprints?) to head each page, followed by free and frank remarks about the man himself. You may write a commentary on such photographs as you may have to mount on the special pages for that purpose with the mounting-corners in the pocket of the back cover. This pocket may be used for clippings you want to preserve, or, together with the small envelopes on the last page, for authentic souvenirs of life in camp.
Your own ingenuity may suggest to you many other ways of using this book, which comes to you with our greetings and good wishes.
Yours very sincerely,
WAR PRISONERS’ AID OF THE YMCA.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Dick Curnock's Wartime Log
Description
An account of the resource
In the log Dick Curnock recorded crew and friends names and addresses, an obituary of Ginge Wheeldon who was shot by a Typhoon whilst on a march, cartoons, sketches of aircraft, dates of letters received and samples of window.
Creator
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Dick Curnock
Format
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29 page handwritten book
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
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MCurnockRM1815605-171114-093
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Leicester
England--Leicestershire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945-04-19
1945-04-20
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Alan Pinchbeck
David Bloomfield
aircrew
Anson
arts and crafts
C-47
Defiant
final resting place
flight engineer
Halifax
Lysander
military living conditions
Oxford
prisoner of war
Red Cross
strafing
Tiger Moth
Typhoon
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/630/30879/BPotterPLPotterPLv5.2.pdf
74c5a13dfc72d89e4d5af84233f0c38e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Potter, Peter
P Potter
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Potter, P
Description
An account of the resource
39 items. Collection concerns Peter Potter, (1925 - 2019, 1876961 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 626 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, his logbook, memoirs and photographs
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Potter and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2015-09-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Description of operational flying – Potter]
So, after surviving a few trips we were given our own aircraft, UMF2, already a
veteran of many ops. She proved to be the most dependable aircraft. Apart
from the increasing number of bombs painted on the side we also had the
nude lady which I understand was repainted by the next crew after we
completed our tour. The lady was no longer reclining but standing and partly
clothed. At a reunion a chap said it had been ordered to be removed, which it
was, but repainted standing and captioned 'Frigger of the fighting sixes'
instead of 'Frigga of -----. Whoever gave the order must have got the
message as it survived. It was a special aircraft in that for some reason it had
a much better performance than the vast majority of Lancs. She flew faster
than others on the same revs and boost and it didn't make any difference
when engines were changed. Fuel consumption was better. A lovely plane. We
never found her ceiling and she performed well in all weather conditions.
Only once when on an op to Saarbrucken on 5th October 1944 did we have real
problems with icing and engine failure, with loss of all heating. We all
suffered from frostbite and had to abort.
However, on 12th September 1944, target Frankfurt, when evading a fighter
JU88. I smashed my lower jaw and was placed sick. The rest of the crew then
had two abortives and became convinced I was their luck and pleaded with me
to sign myself off which I did and flew with my jaw strapped up, hardly able to
talk, and still living on liquids. Wearing an oxygen mask I was in agony but at
least the pain kept me awake. Bone splinters from the jaw were still working
their way out 40 years later. I was still unable to eat properly for many years
and on occasions my jaw would lock solid for weeks at a time.
Once the bombs had gone we either flew high or very low on our way home,
preferably very high, and, as on the outward journey, weaving about all the
time to allow us the greatest chance of seeing anyone underneath us, a method
that stood us in good stead twice. On a moonlit night we flew high, on dark
nights low, avoiding lit up areas. We used cloud cover at times but not if our
shadow was thrown.
UMF2 survived the war. I was told she completed over one hundred ops but
have not confirmed it. She was one of only two aircraft to fly from beginning
to end of Squadron Ops period and had been on C Flight 12 Squadron before C
Flight became 626 Squadron.
Like many other crews we all learnt as much as possible about each others
jobs and agreed amongst ourselves who was the best substitute for who. It
was decided that Stu Tween W lOP was best gunner, Jim Jackson, N, was best
B/A, Johnny Payne B/A, best F/E, Johnny Moore, MU/G best W/OP. I was
best Pilot and also Nav, but every one of us practised at all other positions. I
was the only one to land the aircraft which I only did 3 times with a very
nervous skipper hovering and the rest on tenterhooks too. What would have
happened if I had needed to do it with a dodgy aircraft I have no idea.
Landing occasions were on August 1st, V2 on return from Rufforth, August 21st
F2 and 29th F2, September 9th Navigated whole trip, September 2nd,
Navigated whole trip.
I had been taught to fly and navigate by a First World War pilot, my father
also, and tried to keep up-to-date as I grew older.
Of all my ops the ones I remember more than the others were: Kiel Canal,
Aire (abortive) when we hit down draft of a cu-nim cloud and the plane was
almost torn to pieces and Frankfurt and Saarbrucken when we landed with
full load of 62,0001bs with 3 engines. We also had a second dickie on board.
(Aire Abortive is reported separately).
When we flew it was necessary to keep a sharp eye out for enemy aircraft,
mostly at take-off and landing. Many of our aircraft were shot down for not
being alert at an times. There was never a time you could relax, even in
England. We were all concerned about the possibility of becoming Prisoners
of War and found out as much as possible from evaders and escapees who
came to give us such information as they had, e.g. no labels or names,
numbers on clothing. I had a Swiss knife with a German inscription on it and
some German matches and watch I believe had been taken from a Prisoner of
War or perhaps a dead German. I also had a French pipe and pouch of French
tobacco which I did not use as .I could not replace it and which by the time I
finished flying was nearly all dust.
Flying an aircraft which is open to the elements requires plenty of clothing. In
most bombers the wind could get into the fuselage from several points. To try
to keep warm was impossible and so we wore many layers of clothing, i.e. one
pair of silk socks, 2 pairs of wool, 1 pair sea boot socks thigh length, silk Long
Johns and vest, silk balaclava and a wool one, 1 wool and 1 cotton vest, 1 RAF
shirt, wool Long Johns, I roll neck sweater, 1 8ft long silk scarf, 1 tunic,
trousers, flying inner suit, electric heating suit, Irving trousers and jacket or
Kapok electric buoyancy suit, silk gloves, wool mittens, electric inner gloves,
leather gauntlets, leather lined flying helmet, fur lined flying boots, Mae West
Parachute Harness. In our pockets we had a torch, all the personal items
mentioned, the escape kit which would have maps of the area, several
currencies, concentrated Horlicks tablets, water purifying tablets etc. In our
clothing were hidden knives, films, maps, compasses etc. There was also a
Thermos, sweets, concentrated caffeine tablets (Wakey,Wakey) which caused
eyes to become dry and sore on a long Op. We also had a parachute to carry.
Despite all the clothing and heating by the time we reached our operating
height the cold would be creeping in and within half-an-hour we would be
freezing. When the temperature was below minus 30 degrees or more the
pain began to penetrate every part of the body. It was not uncommon to suffer
frostbite even with the heating still on. In F2 we also had hot air pipes from
the engine exhausts which were pushed into the flies........ to give extra
warmth to the legs, but still could not dispel the cold.
Before an Op. every piece of equipment was checked. Nothing was left to
chance. We and our ground crew would be crawling all over the plane making
sure nothing was missed. The ground crew of F2 were, 1 believe, the best on
the station (Wickenby). Proof I believe is the fact that F2 was one of only 2
Lancaster's on the Squadron to survive the war.
To increase our chances, we spent time in the sections to keep up-to-date and
also in the Intelligence section, often helping there.
Briefing was conducted before each Op when we were given all information
known at the time about the target and defences and weather en route. Very
often both would be wrong but we expected that and took things as they came.
Winds, cloud cover etc were never left to chance.
Interrogation on our return was more intense and I am afraid here we were less co-operative. After long hours frozen to the marrow all we wanted to do[?]
Interrogation on our return was more intense and I am afraid here we were
less co-operative. After long hours frozen to the marrow all we wanted to do
was get into bed to warm up after a hot meal (egg, chips and beans) and so we
had nothing of note to report wherever possible, even if we had had a brush
with a fighter. Any report unusual would mean an interminable questioning
of every member of the crew when we were dead beat and just wanted to rest
and relax. Only if something was completely new would we bother.
I flew with 3 other crews on Ops, one officially and the other 2 unofficially,
due to chaps being unable to get back to the station, as previously mentioned.
The official Op was with F/O Oram who was on his last Op and had lost both
gunners when he had to ditch. The first was to Kiel and the others to the
Ruhr.
Our ground crew were a grand bunch of chaps. The electrician, George Grant,
lived not far from my parents. On every Op he would bring a 3/4 inch steel
plate, heavily padded, for me to sit on 'for special protection'. Whenever there
was a stand down we would take the ones with nothing to do to a show,
cinema, dance or just a drink. There would sometimes be a dance on the
station and so we would lend or procure SNCO or Officer's uniform for them if
the dance was at one of those messes. Nobody, to my knowledge, ever
complained as most crews did this. We always made sure to get all drinks
when on the station and gave each one a pound to spend as he wished when
off the station. Also when any of them went on leave they were given a pound
a day if single and if married double this with an extra pound for each child.
Each of us shared the cost but the Canucks insisted on paying twice the
amount of us natives. The Canadians also bought two rounds to our one, etc.
Three of us gave local farmers a hand when we could and in return we were
given any farm produce they had. Over our time at Wickenby we were given
chickens, ducks, beef, pork, eggs, milk, cheese, butter, bread, dripping, etc.,
and twice when we couldn't leave the station for a while a delivery was
brought in by the local policeman.
Taking off from the station on a summer or autumn evening, turning towards
the continent, meant I was often presented with some of the most beautiful
sunsets I have ever seen and climbing often prolonged them. We flew into
darkness with bright skies behind, night below and daylight above and the
only real danger from the dark areas, which meant there was no time to linger.
on the exquisite sight behind us.
On each Op I took note of the route and times etc. of different dog legs so that
I would be able to estimate a course to be taken if the Navigator and
navigational equipment were damaged. My hope was that I could give the
Skipper a course to the centre of the British landmass from wherever we might
be at that time and that one of us would be able to check drift, wind speed and
direction and knowing aircraft speed, roughly work out ETA over Britain. All
details had to be kept in my head. We put it into practice only once as an
experiment and arrived over Cromer instead of Lincs. From Kiel. I did
navigate sometimes when on cross-countries and was OK but had all the aids
which I could not rely on in an emergency.
On night ops we flew on the outside of the stream until 30 or 40 miles from
the target when we moved to the right track for bombing, trying to find a spot
with nobody above us. There is nothing more unsettling than being on the
point of dropping the bombs and seeing an aircraft immediately above you
with its bomb doors open with bombs still to be dropped. This happened
three times early in our tour. To see bombs falling in front and behind your
wing and tail tends to make you more cautious and think of a solution. We
flew on the edge and higher than the main stream which allowed us to dive
into the stream if attacked, which in fact got rid of the attacker every time.
On a cross country a Flying Fortress came close to us and indicated a race.
Tom opened up and we moved steadily ahead of him. After about 5 minutes
Tom throttled back. It came alongside again and to our surprise the pilot gave
us the 'V' sign and waved, then moved away. Two days later a jeep called at
the guardroom and left a 40 oz bottle of Bourbon 'for the guys who were flying
the Lancaster UMF with the naked babe on' three days before. How they
found out our station I have no idea. We never found where they were based.
Tom and I collected the bottle and gave each hod in the guardhouse a tot
before leaving. For several days we had personnel who didn't normally travel
around the station coming to look at the 'Babe' and the C.O. commented it was
probably in need of modification but as nobody had complained about it there
was no hurry. Later when there was a stand down, our crew and the ground
crew got together to finish the bottle off with a toast to all USA Forces,
especially USAAF.
On one other occasion, on our way home over the Kattegat, a twin engine
aircraft flew alongside us for 20 minutes, quite close, possibly a Mosquito but
no recognition was possible due to bad visibility. No attempt was made by it
that could have been considered hostile and we thought it was one of ours or
Swedish. One thing we did not do was fire, except in defence, which would
give away our position. I am convinced that some chaps fired at imaginary
aircraft and made themselves targets.
Getting caught in searchlights was always bad. If this happened the usual
evasive action was taken, plus Johnny Payne and I would throw out 'window'!
We had no idea if it helped but we evaded almost immediately every time.
Luck or not it seemed to work.
Air pressure at height reduces the higher you go and can cause some unusual
effects. Nitrogen bubbles in the blood can cause a sensation similar to
intoxication. Also releasing the ground pressure in a flask, particularly hot
beverages, causing the contents to expand and boil.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Description of operational flying
Description
An account of the resource
Writes of being given their own aircraft with nude lady nose art which survived the war. Mentions icing problem on operation to Saarbrücken. Describes operation to Frankfurt where engaged by Ju-88 where he injured his jaw. Writes that they learn as much about each others jobs as possible and mentions that he had to land his aircrfat three times and navigating for a whole trip. Recounts other operations to Kiel Canal and Aire when they hit downdraft which damaged their aircraft as well as landing back with bombs from Frankfurt and Saarbrücken. Continues with description of keeping lookout for enemy aircraft, flying clothing , escape equipment and crew activities on operations. Writes about ground crew and their activities and more about his actions and incidents during operations, including an airborne encounter with a B-17 and subsequent arrival of a bottle of Bourbon from the American crew. Concludes with other incidents and comments about operations.
Format
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Five page printed document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BPotterPLPotterPLv5
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Kiel Canal
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10-05
1944-09-12
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Bloomfield
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
aircrew
bombing
briefing
debriefing
Ju 88
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
Mosquito
nose art
Window