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Title
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Flowers, James
H J Flowers
Horrace James Flowers
Harry James Flowers
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. The collection concerns the wartime experiences of Flight Sergeant Horace James Flowers, a rear gunner with 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. The collection consists of one oral history interview, a propaganda leaflet and nine photographs. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by James Flowers and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Flowers, HJ
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HJF: My name is Horace James Flowers. I’m known as James. I am recording my, I served in the RAF for four and a half years from 1944 until 1947. I attained the rank of flight sergeant and flew, and served with 50 squadron and 44 squadron, 50 squadron at Skellingthorpe and 40 squadron, 44 squadron in Tiger Force at a number of squads, at a number centres, stations. I’m recording this for the International Bomber Command Centre on the 2nd of June, er, 2nd of June 2015 in, at xxxxx Cleethorpes, Lincolnshire. Yeah. I was born on the 9th of 10th, 9th of the 10th 1924 in a small village called Huthwaite in Nottinghamshire. I remained in Huthwaite, remained in Huthwaite during my education which was only secondary modern. Secondary modern. I then left school at fourteen, 1939. That sounds bad doesn’t it?
MJ: That’s alright.
HJF: I left school, I left school when I was fourteen. That was 1939. I became an apprentice butcher and loved the job. I absolutely loved it and if it hadn’t have been, hadn’t have been for the war, I’m certain I would have remained in that trade for the rest of my working life. However, Sutton in Ashfield area, Huthwaite and Sutton in Ashfield area rapidly became an area, a training area for a battalion of troops. And also there were Yanks at er, at Kingsmill Hospital and there were the paratroopers at Hardwick Hall five miles away. They was the elite and they used to come in at night time and the village had, all the village halls had been turned into dance halls so the town was thriving at night time, with hundreds probably thousands of, of soldiers coming in to be entertained for the night. It was so exciting. Now, the paratroopers were special. They were elite and when they used to come in they used to create skirmishes in the, you know, to a teenager it was so exciting and at the same time my brother had joined the navy and he was he was in, in, he was stationed at Brightlingsea at what they called [unclear] sorry [unclear]
[pause]. Yes.
HJF: German U-boats used to, used to speed in and torpedo any, any ship that was in the area. At the same time, at this particular time I had a girlfriend whose brother was in aircrew and he was a wireless operator and he used to come home at the weekends and I used to listen to his stories about his fly, what was happening while he was flying. This really stimulated my interest so I just had to get to it, get involved. Now, on the 18th of February 1943 I attended the, enlistment section-
[pause]
On the 18th of February 1943 I attended the recruitment section, recruitment place at Mansfield to be given a medical for aircrew which I passed A1. How excited I was when the medical officer told me that I’d passed A1. Not that my excitement was allowed to last long because shortly after the recruiting officer called me in to his office to give me the bad news. Now then, this is, ‘I’m very sorry to tell you, you can’t be accepted. We can’t accept anyone who is in a reserved occupation.’ I was completely devastated because I’d took a year to get in. I pleaded for them to change their mind, ‘Sorry you can only be accepted if the authorities release you from your reserved occupation.’ To a teenager desperate to volunteer this was terrible news. It felt as if a bomb had been dropped on me by the recruiting officer. My factory manager showed no sympathy at all. He firmly informed me that unless I was medically released I would have to remain with them until the end of the war. The problem was that I needed to be A1 to be accepted for air crew and unfit to be released from the reserved occupation. How do I get around that? Continuously I racked my brain to try and think of a way that I could overcome this problem. Months went by and I began to despair. It seemed as if my chance of joining the RAF had gone forever. At last I had an idea. I wondered, will it work? No matter whether it did or not I just had to try something. So with my heart in my mouth I arranged an appointment with my factory doctor. Attending the appointment I showed the doctor all the spots on my face, and telling him that I considered that the heavy fumes of the machine grinder on which, on which I was working was giving me dermatitis. I then requested that I should be released from this work. My case was so thin and I knew it but I had to try something. I then had to listen to the doctor giving me a real dressing down. How awful he made me feel. He ended his lecture by saying, ‘You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Men are dying for the likes of you.’ Feeling very subdued I then quietly said, ‘But doctor, I only want releasing from munitions because I volunteered and been accepted for air crew. The RAF won’t take me if you don’t release me.’ With my heart in my mouth I waited as he fixed his gaze on me for what seemed an eternity. He looked me straight in the eye. Then without another word he reached for his pen and signed my release. As I got up to leave the surgery he leaned forward and shook my hand and wished me luck. All these problems had taken a year to resolve. Is that?
MJ: Yes
HJF: Now, having reached my ninetieth year I can’t help thinking how much slimmer my chances of surviving this terrible war would have been if I’d been allowed to leave my reserved occupation in 1943. Although I knew that being a rear gunner was a very dangerous job with a very high casualty rate, so much so that rear gunners were named Charlies and that’s another name for stupid fool, it didn’t matter to me what others thought. This was the way I wished to serve my country. Yeah, so that goes on to my “Tail End Charlie’s Story”.
MJ: Ahum
HJF: This was the title I gave to my book which I’ve, which I’ve had produced, “A Tail End Charlie’s Story” ‘cause I think that fits the bill. Right, on the 6th of March 1944 I reported to the induction centre at Lords Cricket Ground, London along with hundreds more recruits for entry to the RAF. Lords Cricket Ground was used during the 1939 ‘45 war as an induction centre for air crew. A roll call, a roll call was made during which, to my astonishment, a second HJ Flowers’ name was called out. It was then that I first met Henry James Flowers. Henry told me that he came from a village called Bargoed in South Wales. From then onwards we became constant companions. We remained together during basic training at RAF Bridgnorth after which we were posted to RAF Stormy Down for air gunnery training. Fortunately, we were kept together during flying training and in actual fact ended up serving on both 50 and 44 squadron, squadrons. Now, ok, recruitment before I get on to?
MJ: You can put it whatever way you like.
HJF: Does that sound alright?
MJ: Yes it’s fine. It’s superb. I mean I know exactly what you mean when you said that London had had a right bash of it.
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: I mean, my nan got bombed out twice. You know, nothing left.
HJF: We got friends, we’ve got a friend that lost everything twice. Absolutely everything.
MJ: Yeah, yeah.
HJF: She lived near where I was stationed yeah.
MJ: ‘Cause the road that they lived in doesn’t exist.
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: And so on. You know people don’t-
HJF: Yeah.
MJ: Realise this sort of thing. Are you ready?
HJF: Yeah ok. After disembarking from the troop train at Bridgnorth railway station we formed up in threes. Shouldering our heavy kit bags we began the long march to camp. The last mile was up a steep hill. As new recruits, unfit, with no marching experience at all, all carrying a heavy kit bag the formation rapidly turned into a gaggle. By the time we reached the camp everyone was on the point of collapse. Next morning, after the recruits had been formed up on the parade ground the NCO in charge of the parade informed us that we’d be confined to barracks for the entire six weeks - square bashing, ‘You will not be allowed in public until you can be a credit to your uniform.’ From that moment on we spent every minute of every day drilling and exercising. My muscles screamed out from the strains. The course seemed never ending. Much to my surprise the strain became less. I was obviously getting fitter. Not content with keeping us hard all day we were also given guard duty at night. On Saturday and Sunday a percentage of recruits were picked out to stand guard throughout the weekend. It was just the luck of the draw as to whether your name would come out. By the end of the fourth week I was badly missing my girlfriend Eunice so despite the ban on boots, new boots, new recruits leaving camp I began to make plans. Now, having been on guard duty at a sentry box on the edge of the wood at the rear of the camp I knew there was a way in and out. Those on guard duty were given instructions to arrest anyone there but be that it may I let loads of them through expecting them to make the, make the favour, if I, if I needed it. I noticed. Now desperate to return home I was willing to risk anything. So after duty on the fourth Friday I slipped out of camp by the back way and began thumbing lifts. In uniform they came very easily and with a matter of hours I was back home again. Early next day I walked the two miles to my girlfriend’s house. This was the first time that Eunice had seen me in uniform and I knew that I’d created a good impression. We had a lovely day and a half together. I can still remember going for a walk that Sunday morning along a very attractive country walk known locally as Skegby Bottoms. The sun shone brightly as we sat there. I was at peace with the world. I wanted it to go on and on and on. Late Sunday night I successfully re-entered the camp through the back. Through the woods. In no time I was back in my billet. The moment Taffy saw me he exclaimed, ‘Your name was called out several times for guard duty over the weekend.’ ‘Oh dear,’ I thought, ‘Blimey I shall be on a charge on Monday morning’. Sure enough I was called off the parade ground and told to report to the commanding officer. Shaking like a leaf I stood to attention in front of him. ‘Sorry. I didn’t hear my name called out.’ Not impressed, he said ‘Fourteen days jankers and do it again and I’ll throw the book at you.’ Next day I reported to the cookhouse in full pike. Just my luck to be the only one on jankers, jankers at the time to peel the thousands and thousands of potatoes needed to feed a camp full of hungry airmen and then to wash the pots that had to be used for meals. Gosh it was hard work. You may have thought that all this effort made my weekend worthwhile. I’m in no doubt at all. It was.
Now then, what did I get to? 3rd of, 3rd of June 1944 see us arrive at Bridgnorth for flying training. Now this training was on Avro Ansons. It had one mid upper turret and we used to fire at drogues that used to come by with a, with a Spitfire travelling a drogue alongside us. And quite honestly, quite honestly it was I think, I think the pilot was, of the Spitfire, was in more danger of us hitting him than us hitting the drogue. Anyway, when, when we finished this course, at the end of this course I managed to get a day’s, a weekend off so I travelled home to see Eunice. She was in the Land Army near Grimley and I remember as I arrived at the, at the hostel, at the hostel Eunice was telling me about the, about someone who was getting married. One of the Land Army girls getting married. And I could feel that this was the, that there seemed to be a longing in her voice which suggested to me that this was the right time to once again, for the hundredth time ask her if she’d marry me. And so as she turned to me I said, ‘Well shall we get married then?’ and she said, ‘Yes, let’s.’ I’m not joking with you I could have fallen through the floor. Anyway, we decided there and then. She said, ‘What are you doing now?’ I said well I’m going now to Husbands Bosworth for a ten week course on OTU training and she says, ‘Ok when will that finish?’ Well we calculated it out that it would finish about October the 14th. She says, ‘Ok we’ll add a week to that. We’ll add a week to that. We’ll get married on the 21st of October.’ Not for one minute did we think the things that could happen in a flying training. So naïve we were. Anyway, a week before, two weeks before the October the 21st flying training, all flying training was cancelled through bad weather. We didn’t fly for nearly eight days. Comes the 20th, comes the 20th of, of October and I’m getting married the next day. I’d still got four hours flying to do that morning. Anyway, by sheer luck we got the flying training finished, finished by dinnertime. We then needed to, to get cleared from the station, and of course collect all our gear because we’re moving to another, another station. And, and we’d got, in those days, today if you wanted to get cleared from a section they do it on computer, can do it in five minutes. In our day we used to have to go to every section to get our chitty signed, mainly on foot. Fortunately, Taffy managed to borrow a couple, a couple of bikes. He was going to be my best man so he’s coming with me. We circulated and of course there’s a tremendous area in, in, on an RAF aerodrome and we circulated the area on these cycles and I’m certain that everybody, every section knew we were getting married because as we were, the next day every section and as we, the next day, and as we came in they immediately signed my chit. Bless them all. Anyway the admin section was closing at 5 o’clock. We arrived there at five minutes to five. The admin, the officer then cleared us from the section and, and he says, ‘Ok, right, you can go now. Report to RAF Wigsley on Monday the 23rd.’ I thought, bloody hell, two days. We then had to start [laughs] we then had to start our journey. Now in those days, in those days there was very little transport. We had to, we had to cadge lifts we had to catch buses, local buses, train journeys, local train journeys. It took us all night. We didn’t arrive in Sutton in Ashfield until half past eight on the Saturday the 21st. Having been awake all night I was absolutely shattered. Anyway we walked out of Sutton in Ashfield railway station and Eunice lived a mile to the right and I, and I lived two miles to the left. Taffy walked to tell Eunice we’d arrived. I walked the two miles to Huthwaite to, to my parent’s home. Now there was so much happening. The wedding was planned for 2.30. There was so much happening I never got any rest. I was absolutely cream crackered. By, I remember, I remember we were in, as we got in, as we got in to the taxi turned up to St Mary’s Church at Sutton in Ashfield and I says to my mum ‘Oh I can’t.’ ‘Go on, go on, ‘she said, ‘Oh no. You’re here now. Go on. Get going.’ Anyway we got into the church and I’m not joking I stood at the altar and I was absolutely asleep on my feet. I can’t explain how tired I was. Anyway, after a while suddenly there was a thump in my ribs and I opened my eyes and said. ‘I will’ and it was back to sleep again and quite honestly that’s all I remember of my, of my, of my wedding. And then photographs. The photographer wouldn’t take any photographs at the church. He insisted that we went down to his studio which was a couple of miles away and then he only took, would agree to take two photographs. One of Eunice and I and the wedding group. How different it is these days. Wedding photographers dominate the wedding and take millions of photographs and charge a tremendous amount of money. They do, don’t they? Anyway, Eunice was late when she arrived at the, at the church. She told me later, she said as the taxi drew away from her house a funeral appeared. Now it’s bad luck for you to go past a funeral. That’s what they said. So, quickly the taxi driver changed direction, changed direction to, to avoid it. Lo and behold they were just about to turn up the drive to the, to the church it was quite a long drive two or three hundred yards long and another, another funeral appeared so quickly he turns around and went back again and made another deviation. Well, she says she thought this a sign our wedding wouldn’t last. Well sixty nine years, seventy years later I think probably her premonition was a little bit wrong.
[laughs].
Fortunately, the Sunday, Sunday, a telegram arrived at my home to tell me that I’d been given eight days leave. So, so we didn’t have to report to Wigsley until eight days later but I want to go back a little bit now to my flying training because quite honestly flying training on Wellington bombers, it was a marvellous experience. Dangerous. Always exciting. Mostly enjoyable but quite honestly we were like kids playing with big new toys and we couldn’t get enough of it. Now, many things happened, happened, that quite honestly, that could, we could have bought it there and then. I remember one instant. One instant comes to, comes to mind. This was a training flight up to the north of Scotland and, and this was one for the first night trips that we had. Now, navigation in those days was very, very difficult because they didn’t have radar, the navigator didn’t have radar. He had to use his maps and they used to even use the stars and, and even used to ask us, ask us for things on the ground so that was how primitive it was. Anyway, we flew up to the north of Scotland. It was six and half hour trip and when we got to the north of Scotland we were due to turn, to turn starboard to come down the North Sea but instead of telling us to turn starboard the navigator told Skip to turn port so instead of travelling down the North Sea we were travelling down the Irish Sea. In fact we were rapidly going towards bloody America [laughs] and extended the flight trip quite a long way. He said the reason why this happened was because he accidently pulled his, we were flying above twelve thousand feet and he accidently pulled his, his oxygen cylinder thing out, connection out so he, but that was his story. Anyway, we goes down the North Sea. I remember we got back to, we got back to the Husbands Bosworth area and I remember looking down. It was absolutely, early hours of the morning, it was absolutely pitch dark. You could not see a thing on the ground and Jack the navigator says, ‘Ok Skip. We’re over base.’ Skip says, ‘Can’t see anything.’ So he says, ‘Ok, dog leg.’ so he does a five minute dog leg, comes back again and he says, ‘Right Skip. We’re over base.’ And when he says that there’s a chorus of voices says, ‘You’re up the spout, you’re bloody up the spout we can’t see anything.’ Ok, another dog leg. We did another dog leg and another dog leg and then when we gets to the fourth one there’s a voice, the flight engineer butts in and says, ‘Hey. Hey, we’ve only got, you’d better pull your fingers out, we’ve only got four minutes of fuel left.’ I was sitting, I was in the rear turret listening to all this going and quite honestly my ring was beginning to twitch. I thought to myself, ‘bloody hell if they don’t do something about it we’re going to crash’. So I switched it on. I say, ‘Skip why don’t you call somebody up?’ He says, ‘Oh yes.’ He then calls out the base. The base called in the, the aircraft codes, signs and immediately lights, the aerodrome lights flicked on straight beneath us. Navigator, nav, had been right all the time. We made an emergency landing. We taxied around this, we taxied round, around the perimeter. We turns in to, turns into our bay and as we turned into the bay, before we were in, the engines stopped. That’s how close we were. Ok now then. I’ll go forward now to after my wedding ok.
MJ: Yeah.
HJF: Are we still going?
MJ: Yeah.
HJF: After, after the wedding I reported to, to Wiglsey. Now, once again we, one, one time comes to mind we had a complete and utter cock up on Stirlings. I remember we were corkscrewing, corkscrew starboard, corkscrew port and the Skipper was saying to me diving starboard, diving starboard, climbing port, climbing starboard, rolling port, so on. The corkscrew. And in the middle of this cork, and this Spitfire was attacking us, was attacking us from behind and I was giving a running commentary on, on him coming in and all of a sudden the aircraft levelled out and a panicked voice came over the, came over the intercom, ‘Put on parachutes, jump, jump, jump.’ And I thought, ‘bloody hell, I can’t believe this’. The next second, ‘Put on parachute. Jump, jump, jump. I can’t hold it, I can’t hold it, I can’t hold it.’ I thought to myself ‘bloody hell there’s something happening I can’t see’ and I thought to myself, I thought ‘I’ll have a go’. So I drags the turret around to the beam, pulls on my slider, green as grass I was at the time. Now with experience I’d have opened the door and just flopped back outwards but green as grass I dragged myself out of the turret outside and I was standing outside and the wind was terrible. You can imagine. We were twelve thousand feet, travelling two hundred miles an hour and I’m looking down. I remember standing there with one, with my feet on the edge of the turret, one arm’s holding the top of the turret and I looked down and cows in fields looked, looked like flies. I thought, ‘Bloody hell I wonder if my parachute will open.’ Anyway, I thought to myself I’ll have a go. So therefore, I thought, I started, I released one hand and took, took, began to take my helmet off and quite honestly it was, there was so much noise outside I could hardly hear anything. All of a sudden I heard a faint voice and I didn’t care what it was it I thought, that’s somebody shouting something. It took me twenty minutes to get out but five seconds to get back in. I was back in like a bloody flash and I held my hands to my ears and it was the flight engineer. We’d got a, we’d got a extra member of the crew that time, he was a tour expired extra flight engineer and he was shouting, ‘Don’t go. Don’t go. Don’t go.’ So, right, well what happened? When we got down as we came down to land I was so stressed up with this thing as I climbed, as I came out of the turret into the fuselage I just asked myself, I just had to know whether my chute would have opened. So I immediately, I pulled the rip cord and my parachute spilled out into the fuselage. It cost me two and six pence to have it, now that’s a lot of money. When you think it’s only two pounds a week for me and I was giving a pound to my Mrs that was a lot of money to me but I didn’t care. It gave me the confidence that at least, at least it opened. Now, when we got out, when we got out I say, I says, I says to Skip, ‘What happened?’ He says, ‘Well’ he says, ‘We were diving,’ he says, ‘We were diving and climbing and rolling in the what do you call it,’ he says, ‘And all of a sudden a window just at the back of my head, unbeknown to me, flew out.’ The window had got, on the inside, had got a lead weighted curtain and as it, as the window blew out it sucked this lead weighted curtain out and he says it just started banging on the side of the fuselage bang, bang, bang, bang he says, ‘I suddenly heard this bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang tremendous noise’ he says, and at that precise moment by sheer coincidence the instructor, flight engineer, the bloody fool, sitting at the side of me, the starboard outer oversped. Now, the standard procedure is to pull the nose of the aircraft like climbing a hill to steady it down. Now, instead of just poking the Skipper or, or switching his intercom on which was at his mouth and saying what was happening he immediately dragged on, dragged as hard as he could on the controls to lift. Now, the Skipper at the time because he was hearing this banging noise was trying to keep the aircraft straight and level and at the same time the flight engineer, and they were pulling against each other and I’m not joking it was a complete and utter cock up but I’ve often thought to myself what did that bloody Spitfire driver think of me when he saw me standing outside, climbing out, he must have thought I were doolally.
[laughs]
Another thing happened whilst we were in flying training. We were doing the corkscrewing. All of a sudden all four engines cut out. Quick as a flash Skipper slammed the aircraft in to a vertical dive and kick-started the engine. Fortunately got them going, fortunately we got plenty of height, kick-started them. By golly that did make your heart flutter [laughs] and then our final training, training trip with, on Stirlings we had an emergency landing and we had, we had to make an emergency landing at Woodhall Spa, the home of 617 of all places, and as we, as we touched down all of a sudden the Stirling swung off, swung off the runway and headed straight for flying control. Now the Stirling was a massive aircraft and, and the cockpit, when the cockpit, when it was stopped, when it was stationery the cockpit was level with the windows in flying control and we, we careered across the, across the, the grass and stopped about a couple of foot from the, from the flying control windows and Skip said he could see flying control people running away from the windows in panic and when we stopped he says, he switches on, he says, ‘Flying control, ‘he says, ‘Can you see where we are?’ and a droll voice, a dry voice came over, ‘Yes’.[laughs] Anyway, the bonus for this was we spent the night at Woodhall Spa and we were, we were able to spend the night in the mess and we were able to mix with those elite airmen, the 617 people. It was absolutely wonderful. Anyway, the next morning we flew the thirty five minutes back, back, back to base at Wigsley and that was our last training trip, flying training trip. The next day we went to, we transferred to RAF Syerston for Lanc finish school which we spent two weeks there. At the end of the two weeks we were being moved to squadron. We were now fully trained. Now, for some reason we, on the 24th of January 1945 we, we boarded a RAF transport to take us from there to squadron. For some reason and I don’t know why we were taken to RAF Balderton for the night. Now, we were absolutely dead beat when we got there. It’s a bit sexy.
[laughs]
Absolutely dead beat so we went to bed very early. Now, we were in a Nissen hut with about twenty beds and there was entrances both sides. Now, fast asleep, late on, I don’t know, about midnight, all of a sudden there was a door opened the other end and a couple, excited couple came in and they obviously didn’t know there was anybody there. Short time later the excited talk, sexual. [laughs] and this went on and on and on and on. Anyway satisfaction came in time and they crept out laughingly and after they’d gone a quiet voice says, ‘Did you hear all that?’ [laughs] It goes without saying that fit aircrew fully trained wouldn’t miss a thing like that. It certainly brightened my night up. The next day we were a, to 50 squadron Skellingthorpe. We arrived at RAF Skellingthorpe on the 25th of January 1945. Now, the atmosphere, there was quite an atmosphere on training, training, on training stations but it was nothing like this. There was that feeling like an electric feeling. There was so much bustle and things going off, watching, actually we were nearly month before we did our first operation but we, all right? Seeing aircraft take off, disappearing, new aircraft coming in, the wild, wild parties that were in the mess. The atmosphere was absolutely wonderful. Now as I said we were a month, we were doing training during the time and I remember wonder, wonder if, if I’m going to be up to it because you never know do you? Anyway, it was the 5th of March, the 5th of March by the time we, we did our first operation and what an operation. What an eye opener. Now, I remember we walked into the, we walked into the briefing room, and The excited chatter and then all of a sudden the briefing officer came in quite pleased and deathly silence instantly. Your target for tonight will be Bohlen. Bohlen. Apparently, I found out, it was going to be a ten hour trip. Your, your route will be passing the Ruhr, in the Ruhr, in the Ruhr 3 Group will be attacking the Ruhr. In that area expect to see enemy fighters attacking in pairs. One from above and one below. If one gets above, if one gets beneath you they will shoot you to pieces. So be careful. Beware. Anyway, briefing finished and we’re standing outside. They’re all chatting all excitedly together and I’m talking to Flight Lieutenant Ling’s rear gunner and I can’t remember his name but I knew that he’d been, he was getting towards the end of his tour. I says to him how are things going, what was the flight like? Obviously, obviously I was quite uptight and he said, ‘Oh don’t worry, there’s nothing to it. Nothing to it. And I said something to him which I’m not going to tell you about which made me think, made me think ‘You’re not taking it seriously enough.’ He said, ‘Oh’ he says, ‘Don’t worry. I’ve never seen, I’ve never seen a fighter at all.’ Unbelievably, we came, we came across our first Messerschmitt less than four hours later. He say, ‘Don’t worry. There’s nothing to it’ and I thought, anyway they got the chop on the next trip, the next what do you call it, you see. Anyway, I remember going out to the aircraft at Skellingthorpe and the tension in me was absolutely sky high and I remember it didn’t seem to take us long, didn’t seem to take us long before we were taxiing out and as we were taxiing out I was looking around and there was all, I’m certain as I remember 61 squadron were also going that night and there were all these aircraft taxiing around the perimeter. The atmosphere was absolutely electric and all above, above, above all above us we could see the Lincoln cathedral in front of us and all above we could see heavily laden bombers gradually circling up, circling around. The tension inside me just went just like that. I was ready for it. Anyway, we turns on to the peri track, taxies up to the runway, waits our turn, turns on to, turns on to the, turns on to the, on to the runway. Skip calls, ‘Brakes on. Full power.’ And then, ‘Right, brakes off’ and, and we began to surge forward and alongside the, alongside the runway was a line of ground staff waving us off. What a wonderful take off. What a wonderful send off. Anyway, this was the first time that we’d been in a, in a Lancaster with a full bomb load. We’d got fourteen thousand pounds of bombs on and two thousand two hundred gallons of fuel. It was as much as any aircraft, Lancaster aircraft could carry in those days. I remember we were surging along, we were surging along, the vibration, this was the first time I’d heard the engines on full throttle right through the gate. The aircraft was absolutely, all the fuselage was vibrating with the tension of it. Anyway, as I, as I remember one two five was the one, was about the speed that you used to take off. I remember engineers started to call out one twenty, one twenty one, one twenty two, one twenty four, one twenty five and then Skip dragged the aircraft and you could feel the fuselage vibrating as he was fighting to get the aircraft into the air and then we had another problem. The Skellingthorpe runway was aimed straight at Lincoln Cathedral on top of that hill. Now that’s like a pimple today but to us in, in 1945 it was a terrible object to get over and we used to have to be banking while still at stalling speed. We used to be banking to miss that, well, I say ‘bloody cathedral, oh God’ and then when we got to a thousand feet it was such a relief. Anyway, I remember, I remember gradually climbed up. Our operation height was twelve thousand feet. I remember circling around. There were hundreds of aircraft. I think there were about two hundred and fifty aircraft involved in that operation. They were oh wonderful sight, wonderful sight gradually, circling around getting up to height and then a green light, Very light came from came out of one of the, the leading aircraft and we immediately began into a bomb, into a stream and we started to head out for Germany over the North Sea. Now, gradually, we’d set off at half past five at night, March and it was getting dark, getting quite dusk and as we set out, as we set out over the, over the North Sea gradually the light disappeared and so the aircraft, the aircraft, gradually, my night vision was developed. It used to take you twenty minutes for your night vision to develop and, and gradually all you could see was just, you could see Lancasters when they were the image of them when they were very close and you could see the sparks of the engine and we used to, we used to, we’d been told, warned about these twin fighters so we were swaying from side to side so we could look straight beneath us so we wouldn’t be caught out and I remember we’d been flying over the North Sea and were now entering, entering, enemy territory for the first time. The tension built up in, the adrenalin. I should say adrenalin building up inside me and I remember I was looking, it was now almost pitch dark, although it was a moonlit night it was still dark and I remember watching this, watching this Lancaster drift slowly underneath us, about twenty or thirty feet beneath us and it had just drifted underneath us. I could just see the sparks from its engines and just as he drifted there was a tremendous explosion just a short distance behind us and the explosion, the light split in half, then the next second, two, two seconds later there were two tremendous explosions. Two Lancasters rammed each other and both exploded in mid-air and then it was back to complete darkness. It hadn’t, the shock, the shock it hadn’t taken me long to realise the difficulties of being on operational active service but you know sadly fourteen air crew, airmen had lost their lives in that second but the shockwave was, it was so close to us the shockwave came right through our aircraft, violently vibrated us and quite honestly I wouldn’t have been surprised if it had blown us down. Anyway, we carried on. We climbed up to twelve thousand feet. Now, it was a moonlit night, a moonlit night and the clouds, the clouds looked like a rolling sea. It was so picturesque. The clouds were up to ten thousand feet, we were two thousand feet above and it looked so picturesque. It was lovely and I remember my concentration was absolutely sky high and all of a sudden I saw something which could have been a fly on a window, it was just a slight movement right down deep, deep on, on the starboard side and I thought to myself, bloody hell a fighter. Can’t be. Who said he’d never seen a fighter? Yeah, I thought, anyway it was at that moment that I made, through inexperience, something which could have been, could have been fatal to us because I should, all my, all my training, I should have in actual fact immediately called and, and warned the crew what was happening. Nevertheless, despite this mistake I automatically aimed my guns at it. Gradually this object moved gradually astern and when it was dead astern at ten thousand feet gradually it started coming up. Now when it got to, when it got level with us the image of the aircraft filled my, filled the ring on my gun sight and it was at that moment that the hundreds of hours that I’d spent viewing, viewing pictures, silhouettes of, of fighter, of enemy fighters, fighters on screens in training paid off because I recognised it a Messerschmitt 109. Immediately, without, without a second thought I pressed my, pressed my button and gave it a prolonged burst straight at the fighter and I watched my, I watched my tracers go straight in it. At this fraction of a second I immediately switched on and shouted, ‘Fighter. Fighter. Dive, dive, dive.’ And the Skipper slammed the aircraft straight into a, into a vertical dive and he’s shouting me, ‘You mean corkscrew. You mean corkscrew.’ But I didn’t. I meant dive because there was no deflection required because he was absolutely dead astern. Anyway, I watched my tracers go straight into it, straight into it and the fighter immediately went straight down as if out of control straight into the cloud. I’m convinced now that I shot it down but of course rules do not allow you to claim anything when you don’t see the ground and we were at ten thousand, the clouds at ten thousand feet so therefore that’s but I’m convinced that I got him. Anyway, we carried on to the target, this was another couple of hours RT silence and all of a sudden, all of a sudden a voice, RT silence was broken. Now, a voice came over as calm as I’m talking to you, ‘Control to Link One how do you read me?’ And it was the, it was the voice of the controller who I feel certain was Wing Commander Stubbs, a man I had a great respect for. ‘Link One to control. Loud and clear. Control to Link One go in and mark the target.’ Ok. Right, carry,’ I listened to this conversation. We’re gradually, now we’re quite some distance from the target but gradually now the pathfinders are now beginning to drop their flares so the sky’s beginning to light up so I’m beginning to see lights in, lights in the sky and gradually as we are approaching as we are getting nearer and nearer the target. I’m listening to the conversation of the controller and the Link One now when everything was done and everything had been marked with satisfaction controller says, ‘Ok. Ok Link One, go home, go home.’ Then he called out which I’m certain was Bandwagon. They called the bomber stream Bandwagon, ‘Hello Bandwagon,’ and that was our call sign, ‘Hello Bandwagon. Come in and bomb the target. Bomb red flares,’ and he was giving instruction to which flares to bomb and when he’d finished all that he says, he says, now, ‘No flak. Watch out for fighters.’ So, anyway, we approach the target and just before the target, just before we reach the target all of a sudden a single engine fighter which I’m certain was a Messerschmitt 109 suddenly made a run at us. I immediately, now I was listening to the bomb aimer and Skipper beginning to give instructions for our bombing run and our instructions was that you should not corkscrew during that time. We were taught to be quiet so immediately I aimed and fired. Calamity. The back of my gun sight dropped out and a white light there, I’d been five hours in pitch darkness, and this white light bomb sight bulb was right in front of me. Now, it only took me seconds to put it together but twenty minutes for my, for my night vision to come back and during that time anything could have happened. I couldn’t have done a thing. I could hear what was happening and all the talk and I couldn’t see a thing. What happened to that fighter I will never know. Anyway, we went on our bomber run and, and I could hear the bomb aimer saying, ‘Left, left, steady, steady, steady. Ok bombs gone.’ Now, the bombs used to drop at about a thousand feet per second. We were twelve thousand feet so twelve seconds later he says, ‘Photograph taken.’ Now, immediately Skipper slammed the nose of the aircraft right down. We went straight down a couple of thousand feet straight into the cloud and we stayed in those clouds for hours. Anyway, we came out of the clouds eventually and then lo and behold as we came out of the cloud over to our, over to our side I can’t remember if it was port or starboard there was a bloody Lancaster flying on with all its lights on. The stupid buggers. With all his lights on. We scooted away from it as quick as we could. So anyway we got back to our area where the cathedral, over the cathedral. Now, Skellingthorpe, Scampton and Waddingon, their circuits almost intertwined around the cathedral, more or less. Now, when we used to come over the cathedral you can- now you can imagine everything was visual so therefore there were loyal scores of very, very tired, tired aircrew so all, all desperate to get home, desperate to get home so there was a tremendous danger of collision and another thing, another thing, the night before this, the night of the 4th , 4th of March, three intruders had shot three Lancasters down in the circuit at Waddington and one at Fulbeck so this had immediately filtered through us so instead of relaxing as one do after, after being in the turret for nigh on ten, eleven hours my concentration as we switched our landing lights on, we just used to have landing lights while we were in the circuit, and I remember as we switched our landing lights on about, about twenty aircraft close by and they must have been in different circuits switched their lights on. Now, I remember I was, my concentration was sky high and I remember thinking Skip calls twenty degrees of flap, a hundred degree of flap and I was all the time searching all the way around thinking to myself I’m not going to be caught out by an intruder because this was the dangerous, you’re like a sitting duck then. We came in to land we stopped in dispersal all the twelve hours of tension drained out of me. I thought to myself ‘bloody hell and this is only the first one’. And that was my first operation. Yeah. Another interesting operation was the one to Lutzkendorf which was on the 14th of March 1945. There were two hundred and forty five Lancasters involved and eleven Mosquitos. Eighteen aircraft failed to return. Never even reported in the paper and that’s nearly two hundred people it’s just, yeah, anyway. Anyway, took off about ten minutes to five. I remember we, we flew past the Ruhr and once again rear group, 3 Group were attacking the Ruhr and I remember as we passed by I could see the fight that was going on. I could see flak shells bursting in the air. Tremendous. I could see air to air tracer bullets from, from bomber to fighter. I could see bombs dropping and I thought bloody hell we’ve got another, we’ve got another two hours to go yet and then we continued a short distance away and now there was another problem. We’d been warned that there was a fighter, a fighter aerodrome, a night fighter ‘drome in this area which had a light shining from its roof, from the top of flying control so that, so that we knew from one that there would be, there would be fighters, night fighters in strength in this area and this light was on specifically so they could stay in the air until the last minute, down, refuel and be up again. Now, I remember I suddenly saw this and the adrenalin was such, I thought to myself God the night fighter are bound. All of a sudden I saw the airfield had been strafed. The light disappeared. Obviously, it must have been one of our aircraft. One of our aircraft. I know full well that putting the light out didn’t, didn’t make much difference to the fact that fighters were around but boy it did relieve me. Anyway, we carried on to the, we carried on to the target and once again, once again, I can’t remember the controller it might have been Wing Commander Stubbs but he went through the same procedure, went through the same procedure. I remember him saying at the end, ‘No flak. Look out for fighters. Watch out for fighters’. This was our fourth trip and the tension was beginning to build up in me as we were going through the target and I remember without me intercom switched on I was listening to the, I was listening to the bomb aimer saying, ‘Left, left, left, steady’ and I was shouting, I was shouting in a loud voice, ‘Drop the bloody thing. Drop the bloody thing and let’s get out of here.’ Anyway, after what seemed an interminable length of time he said ‘Bombs gone.’ Skip immediately slammed the aircraft down into a dive and disappeared from the, and as we as we left the target I thought to myself, ‘thank God, we got away with it’. Little did I know. Now, I remember we’d left the target, we’d been gone probably ten and fifteen minutes and I could still hear that controller over the target. ‘Bomb green, the green flare,’ do this, undershoot it, do this, do that. It was absolutely inspirational. He must have been, he seemed to have been over the target hours. Anyway as I’m listening to this left from the target about approximately fifteen minutes when all of a sudden a fighter flare burst straight above us. From complete darkness it was like switching the light on, an electric light on in a pitch dark room. The shock of it made me sink deep in, deep in to my, in to my turret. My seat. Mind you, immediately my mind started working like lightning and I, looking out of the, looking out of, I searched the area. I searched the area all the way, all the way. I searched the area all over and sure enough high on the starboard side I could my left I could see an FW190 coming in fast dragging all I’d been looking I hadn’t been turning my turret around so as quick as I can I’m dragging my turret around. I didn’t have time to aim. So, immediately I got anywhere near I pressed my, I starts firing, my gun starts rattling away I’m dragging, trying to drag my tracer, tracer bullets into it and I’m watching it. Then all of a sudden with this, this aircraft coming in fast I felt rather than saw something on my, deep on the starboard side and forcing myself to take my eyes off this aircraft I had a quick glance to the right, to the right, and there deep down, deep down on the port side. It’s my right but it’s the port side of the aircraft, deep down on the port side was a JU88 almost underneath us and I thought, bloody hell. Immediately I realised that if he could get underneath us he was going to shoot us to pieces so I stopped firing at him, drags my turret around and as soon as I can, as soon as I can I began firing at this JU88 and immediately, immediately they both of them broke away. Now, they played cat and mouse with us for twenty six minutes. Now, that might not seem a long, a long time but as each, each attack only lasted about ten seconds. How many times they came in I don’t know but anyway Lancasters, Lancasters didn’t have any power assisted controls. The Skipper was corkscrewing continuously for forty minutes. The physical effort on him must have been absolutely terrific. Anyway, the tension inside me remained after. I didn’t realise they were twenty six minutes. After a time, after a long time with my tension, with my concentration, still sky high they disappeared. They must have decided that, that, you know, either run out of fuel or they realised they might as well go for an easier target. Anyway, the navigator, I only know it was twenty six minutes because the navigator told me later but when we got back I remember the relief as we passed over the English coast. It was absolutely fantastic. I know we weren’t safe but the relief to be over. It seemed so much comfort to be coming over, over this country. Now, when we, when we, after we came in to land I found out that all ten thousand rounds that I’d supplied to my rear turret - I’d fired every one. There wasn’t one left. So if we’d have had another attack by one of those fighters I couldn’t have done anything about it. That was as close we were to disaster. Phew. And sadly, sadly Flight Lieutenant Ling and crew did not return from this, from this operation and I’m not surprised. Well I shouldn’t say this but, no I won’t say any further. I did think that the rear gunner was getting a bit blasé and probably he wasn’t doing what he should have been doing but I don’t know. I can’t say anything more about that. But that was my fourth operation.
Another interesting operation was a daylight operation to Nordhausen. There were two hundred and forty Lancasters involved. Now during briefing we’d been told that the SS troops had been transferred to Nordhausen to protect Hitler. Now, this was what made it interesting with thoughts that we might be bombing Hitler. Now, we didn’t have any flak or fighters to contend with but all we had was problems. Now, I remember we took off. Generally speaking most of my operations in fact all of the other operations we used to take off from, from Skellingthorpe and go straight out to the North Sea. On this occasion we were going to travel south, south and meet up with 3 group aircraft and, and, and travel to Nordhausen with them, you see, which, which meant we were going to drive past the London area. Now, we’d been warned at briefing be careful near the London area. Their ack ack gunners don’t like strangers, unidentified aircraft flying over. They will fire first and ask second so beware. Anyway, having taken off in the early hours of the morning it was still absolutely pitch. 2.30 we took off. It was still pitch dark as we went by, went by the London area and I remember as we arrived there, there were absolutely hundreds and hundreds of searchlights shining up and quite honestly we were so close to them I thought, I was really on tenterhooks, because I thought bloody hell, thinking about the fourteen thousand pound of bombs underneath us and those, those twitchy ack ack gunners. Anyway, I was looking down, all of a sudden Skip slammed the aircraft in to a vertical drive. Now the g-force on me was tremendous. It drew me, stretched my body up and my body, my head hit the top of the fuselage with a bang, the top of the turret rather with a bang and just at that precise second, now you’ve got to remember that I had no perspex at all in front of me, so, therefore, therefore the open air was just there and just as that happened a Lancaster aircraft flew just over and I swear to this day that if I’d have put my hand out I could have touched that aircraft. Another one of our nine lives. Anyway we carried on. We met with up 3 Group, over Reading it was, and we drifted out over the, over the, on to enemy territory. I remember we were so widely spaced out well, we were used to flying at night-time, we didn’t need to be in a gaggle when all of a sudden there was a voice came up, RT silence broken and it was obviously the fighter leader controller, fighter leader and he shouts up ‘Close up. Close up. How do you expect me to bloody protect you?’ Anyway, we got to Nordhausen and boy did we close up. Our operational height was about twelve thousand feet as far as I could remember. I can’t remember. Somewhere in that region. But two hundred and fifty aircraft then from being miles apart suddenly homed in together in to a thin line and I remember there was aircraft all the way around us, almost touching us. Now, I didn’t mind the ones at the side or the ones below or the ones straight above us but I was leaning forward in my turret and looking up. The ones I was concerned of one above in front that I couldn’t see because I thought to myself they’ll be dropping bloody bombs on us and I’m looking at them when all of a sudden, all of a sudden a full load of bombs missed the back of my turret with this, with a fraction. Almost touching us. Ten, ten one thousand pound bombs and a cookie. Now, they go down like lightning. Fifty foot beneath us was a Lancaster. The first, the first thousand pounder hit this fuselage right in the middle, right, just at the back of the mid upper turret. I cringed, expecting it to explode but lo and behold the bomb went straight through the fuselage and disappeared, continued down. The next, the next thousand pounder hit the middle of the wing and I still couldn’t believe it. I’m still cringing again and it bounced back and bounced off. Now the cookie, which was a contact bomb, they must have had err, you know biometric things that didn’t explode above five hundred feet or something but the cookie was a contact bomb. It missed the side of the fuselage by a skin of paint. Anyway, I remember the, the aircraft disappeared and there was a lot, there was a lot happening. I forgot about it. Anyway, by sheer chance at the end of the war I was listening to Canadian troops embarking on to the ship to go home and, and the person being interviewed was a pilot and it was an interesting story and do you know he went through what I’ve just told you. It was the, it was the pilot of this aircraft and he said, he said, and it was so pleasing to know, that they’d staggered back to the North Sea and dropped their bombs and got, and they survived the war. Anyway, anyway we were coming over the North Sea about, about ten thousand feet and all of a sudden I saw two Lancasters drop right down to zero feet and I thought bloody hell they’re going in. They’re going in. And all of a sudden from the back of one of them I suddenly saw foam appear and it was like watching a motorboat swing, speeding along and this foam behind, I can’t remember, two engines, two of the engines, this foam was behind it for about four hundred yards when gradually it picked up, climbed up and I thought to myself, ‘oh they’re ok. They’re alright’. Anyway, by sheer coincidence four days later when we returned from an operation we were diverted to Spilsby of all places, 44 squadron which I eventually finished up on and we were able to get out of the aircraft to have a walk you know and have a stretch and I was walking by this aircraft which had got props bent and all the props on one side. I think it was just on one side [laughs] I think it was just on one side. They were bent almost double and I, and there was a ground staff working on it and I said, ‘God, what happened to that aircraft?’ He said, ‘The silly buggers,’ he says, ‘This bloke and another bloke coming from an operation a few days ago, they were playing about to find which one could get closer to the sea. This silly bugger dragged his props in the water. Nearly drowned his rear gunner.’ I thought to myself, ‘God, how did they manage to keep the aircraft flying with damage like that?’ Anyway, he said they were being court martialled. I don’t know. Anyway, and that was that.
[laughs]
Another very interesting operation was a daylight operation to Hamburg oil installations, Germany on the 9th of April 1945. During this operation twenty five jet fighters ME262s attacked the bomber force. This was, I believe, the first time that any fighters were ever used during any war, first attack. Anyway, there were, there were, there were fifty seven bombers involved. 50 squadron, 61 squadron I think we got twelve and something like that, 61 squadron and 617 and 9 squadron. We were to, we were to drop, we were to drop thousand pounders on the oil installations and 617 and 9 squadron were to drop a tall boy. I can’t remember if eight thousand or twelve thousand pound bombs on the, on the submarine pens. Now, the thing was that because of the weight of the Tall Boy they’d taken out of the Lancasters, 617 and 9 squadrons they’d taken away the bomb doors and had actually taken off the mid upper turret to lighten the aircraft so to be able to carry it ready to take off and because of this we were, we were instructed that we were to fly in a gaggle and fly as quick, as close as possible to support them. Now another thing the apparently 309 squadron, a Polish squadron flying mustangs, would escort us and 65 squadron were also taking part. Now, we took off at about well 14.48 I believe it was. The weather was perfect and I remember our operational height was twelve thousand feet. Now, I remember we were passing over, we were passed quickly, over, over the, over the North Sea and I’m thinking to myself now Hamburg was a very, very dangerous place. A very important place to Germany. Still is. Still is. But because of this over the war, during the war they’d built up a tremendous defence and if you had any aircraft attacking there we could have heavy losses so we knew that we were in for a difficult time when we got there. I remember passing over, over Germany and all of a sudden every so often the flak was bursting, shells were bursting shells were bursting around us but quite honestly I never gave them a thought. You know I was used to night, night bombing where the flak was a bright light but I never gave as I say, probably I should have done. Anyway we got to, got to Hamburg, near to Hamburg and I rotated my turret. I can’t remember port or starboard side but we were coming up and turned square to the right over Hamburg.
Other: Can somebody come in here?
Going back a little bit I remember as we were going over the, going over the North Sea it was a completely cloudless sky, brilliant sun and I remember thinking to myself where are those bloody fighters supposed to be, that are supposed to be protecting us? Three squadrons were supposed to be protecting us but every so often, every so often we saw right in the distance swirling around oh I thought, ‘Oh lovely. There they are.’ Anyway we carried on. I remember as we, as we, as we entered, got over mainland Europe gradually every so often we’d hear the phuf phuf of flak shells at the side of us which I just ignored. I don’t know a bit complacent probably but I just didn’t care about them. Didn’t take any, anyway we gets to Hamburg and Hamburg, I’m just, I’m repeating myself now. Hamburg was a very special place. Was then. Is now. And during the war years they’d built up a tremendous, tremendous defensive force. They, they could send up a box barrage of flak in an instant and I remember we were approaching, approaching Hamburg and I can’t remember which side we were. Left or right. But I leaned forward, leaned forward and I looked and turned my turret to the beam and leaned forward to look forward and I could almost see in front of us and I could see the target as we were approaching her and I’m not joking I have never seen flak like it. We were, we were, I think we, I think we were, our height was we bombed from about sixteen thousand feet but up to around our bombing height there was a complete black cloud of flak shells bursting out and I remember thinking to myself, bloody hell we’re never going to get through that. Now I’m just going to divert a little bit because we were at the back of the fifty seven aircraft and a friend of mine on 61 squadron, Ted Beswick, he was in the front aircraft and he was telling me later he says they were watching this predict, this flak. I forget what you call it. Predicted flak. It gradually approaching him and he said until one burst right in front of the nose and he says and, and, and parts flew through the front through the bomb aimers position and, and, and badly injured the engine, the bomb aimer. Anyway, we carried on to the target. We turned on to the target and we, I’m not joking with you, I can’t describe what it was like going through the flak. It was absolutely frightening you. I was thinking, I say, frightening. Anyway, believe it or not we went, we got through the target unscathed. We dropped our bombs and I understand it was a successful bombing. Anyway, we left the target and I could see aircraft. I feel certain I could see aircraft around, some damaged but nobody shot down. Anyway we’d left the target and we’d been left a few minutes. I then turned my turret around and I thought to myself, bloody hell, we’re back marker. Sitting duck for any fighters. So immediately I switched on. I said, ‘Skip, Skip we’re back marker. Sitting duck for any fighters.’ He says, ‘Ok. Ok.’ So he immediately shoves full throttle on and gradually, gradually we moved forward so we could see aircraft behind me. That made me feel a bit better. Now, a short time later and I can’t remember how long, all of a sudden twenty five ME262s attacked the formation. I only saw five but I know from later reports it was twenty five but I saw five aircraft coming along the, coming along the ground level and I, I called, ‘Skip Skip I can see, I can see five small aircraft on almost at ground level.’ God, I’ve never seen aircraft travelling so fast. They, they, they began to climb. I says, ‘God they’re climbing faster than I’ve ever seen any aircraft dive.’ Within seconds they were up to our operational height. They levelled out and came straight at us canons blazing. Canons blazing’s straight through us like a dose of salts. Now, one of them come straight at us and I’m firing as hard trying, trying as hard as I could ‘cause it’s like lightning is happening, trying to drag my tracer bullets into it and it came so close I thought to myself it’s going to ram us and I’m not joking he then swung in between us and another Lancaster by my side, by our side and, and I could see the, I could see fighter, I could see the fighter pilot as close as I can see you now. Anyway, I’m swinging and firing my turret and all of a sudden I realised that I’m firin my, still firing my bullets straight through this Lancaster at the side of me. I lifted my arms like lightning off, off my, off my off my controls and, and, and I thought to myself bloody hell, I thought to myself might have shot down my, the aircraft but of course you can’t shoot an aircraft down by firing straight at it you have to fire in front of them but that was fortunate because it was a 617 aircraft. I don’t know what would have been said. Anyway, we, we’d left the target, we left the target and only a few seconds later after they’d attacked us all of a sudden by the side of us the aircraft, the back marker aircraft exploded, broke in half and began to drop straight down. Now, when it had dropped about a thousand feet I saw although the rear turret would immediately lose, as it broke in half, lose, lose any control we had we had a handle which we could turn and swing the turret around. Anyway, after about a thousand feet I saw the, this is another story I’ll tell you in a bit which I’d forgotten to tell you. Forgotten to tell you. I watched this rear gunner drag himself out of the, out of the turret and fall away and I thought to myself oh thank God, he’s, thank God he’s, going to get away with it. He was a friend of mine. Anyway, the parachute opened and a few seconds puff it exploded in flames and then I had to watch this friend of mine, friend of mine struggling, drop away, gradually drop away to his death. Now, I’ll tell you a little, I’d forgotten to tell you but when we went out to the aircraft, when we went out to the aircraft after we’d had the briefing you all race out and you all try to get on to the buses as there were buses and lorries. Now, the buses were a lot of comfort so therefore you raced to get in those. Now we raced in and I sat in the front seat and, and sitting at the side of me was Norman, Norman Garfield Fenton. Friend of mine. I say he’s a friend, he was a squadron friend not that I knew much about his private life other than that he was from Kettering. But I says to him, ‘What aircraft are you in? He says, ‘Fred. F Freddy.’ Now F Freddy, we did four ops in there so it gave us, gave us chat, you know, something to talk about. Anyway we got to the dispersal area and, and climbs out. All of us rush to our aircraft and climbed aboard and did our pre-start checks and afterwards there was still an hour or so to go. We climb out of the fuselage and, and, and went Taffy and I went, went and sat down, sat down on the grass and a few seconds later Norman walks across and we sat down and there we are. I think we took off at 2.30 so it was quite warm and where we sat there chatting away talking about what we were going to do. I remember I do believe he said he’d got a little child. I can’t remember but I think he said he had a young family but we were chatting about what we were doing and four hours later I watched him die. You know, it really did affect me. I mean, at night time you just disappeared, didn’t have the same effect on you but knowing, I recognised the aircraft as it dropped away as V and F. I could see it clearly so I knew this was Dennis, Dennis struggling and nearly got out and I had to watch him fall and it did affect me for quite a long time and poor Dennis and Flying Officer [Berryman] who was his Skipper and, and one of the other crew are buried in, in Hamburg but oh dear it did affect me for quite a long time that. Ok. Now one thing I’ve got when we got back to briefing. When we got back to briefing we turned around and told the briefing officers we’d been attacked by jets and they says not possible. Not possible. Not possible. There’s no, there’s no airfields around Hamburg for jets but little did we know, little did we know that jets, the Germans were taking off from motorways. Ten out of ten for them for innovation. But apparently the, the powers that be killed the story because they were so fearful of the effect it might on morale, of morale of our aircrew. But then I want to go back a little bit now to Ted Beswick. He saw all, I only saw five but he saw all twenty five. Now, one of them came at us came at them and he shouts port corkscrew, corkscrew, go, go but of course they couldn’t because they were in gaggle. Anyway when the, when the ME262s had attacked they began to swung around and began to go around to reposition they could only do one or two attacks because of limited fuel but one drew up by accident right on, right on their starboard side I can’t remember starboard or port side. Anyway he immediately fired and saw his tracer bullets go straight into it, straight into it and immediately, immediately the aircraft went straight down as if out of control and he watched it spiral down. Ted is convinced that he made a kill, he made a kill. Of course he couldn’t claim it because once again he didn’t see the ground. But they had another incident they did. They had a hang-up bomb. They couldn’t get rid of it and try as they might they couldn’t get rid of it so they started to go back and try to get rid of it in the, in the North Sea. They still couldn’t get rid of it so they decided to bring it back, bring it back to Skelly. Now as they came in, in to land there was a bang as they touched down and the bomb dropped on to the bomb doors. Now, they pulled up immediately at the end of runway, got out of the aircraft, scooted away from the aircraft called up and a short time later, a short time later well some time later along comes the ground staff, gingerly opens up the, opens up the, winds open the, the bomb doors, bomb doors. Two of them stands there, catches a thousand pounder and then, you know, we have got a lot to thank those air crew people, ground staff people for. Wonderful, wonderful unsung heroes. One, one interesting operation was to [?] in Norway. I remember there was, I can’t remember how many aircraft, several hundred aircraft involved. But we’d been in we’d been told that we were to fly at zero level up the North Sea and I remember in the half-light seeing probably a couple of hundred Lancasters flying, almost touching, almost touching the waves. It was so exciting. I loved it I did. And I’m certain Skip enjoyed it just as a much as I did. Anyway, we got to the, we got to the, got to Norway and, I can’t remember how long it took us. Anyway, we climbed up to bombing height which would be, it would have been about ten to twelve thousand feet. Now, I seemed to remember one gun, one heavy gun but if I’m to believe records, records say there was no, no flak but I seem to remember one gun as we approached. One heavy gun. Anyway, we came in, we came in to bomb and, and we’re virtually on our bombing run and I’m listening to the Skip and the bomb aimer conversing when all of a sudden, now, always before when the Skip had had to dive the aircraft had to change direction of the aircraft it had always been a dive. On this occasion it was different all together. All of a sudden the aircraft reared straight up. Now, I remember I’m clinging on to my controls and I was transfixed. I was transfixed and even though my head still thumped the top of the turret because of the reaction of the aircraft swinging and at the same time we used to carry our flasks and sweets and chocolates given to people, aircrew and I remember them coming straight up in the air, straight up in the air and as the aircraft, aircraft levelled they all went straight out of the window and I said oh sod it. I was saving those for the return. But another thing happened. Ass this was happening. I’m hearing a swirl, a swirling noise of machine gun noise coming into my turret. Thousands of bullets was coming along the ducts into the aircraft. Now, I didn’t realise this was what happened but they came in and completely jammed the turret. Anyway, we levelled out. We crept back over the sea and got back home but if anything had happened we couldn’t have done a thing about that. Now, the thing is when I was on that operation, in our billet, in our billet was another crew err if you just give me a second I’ll remember his name. I’ll just get, now this operation was on the 25th, 26th of April 1945. Now, in my billet, in my billet was another crew. Now this crew, they disappeared and I didn’t know what happened so I just, this is when people got the chop things, just used to take there was usually two crews to a Nissan but when they got the chop they used to take, just take their things out. They disappeared. Never heard anything about them. Anyway, last year, last year at our reunion, our reunion a fellow approaches near our memorial. He says, ‘Hello James. Do you remember me? And I says to him, ‘I don’t think so. I can’t remember.’ Well, he says ‘You were in the next bed to me on 1945. January 1945.’ I says, ‘Oh yes.’ I said ‘What happened to you then?’ I said, ‘You disappeared didn’t you?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He says, he said, ‘When you were going on [?] we were on Exodus.’ Exodus operation. Fetching prisoners back from, from Europe, probably Brussels. Anyway, he says, ‘We dropped the prisoners, the POWs, ex-POWs down he said and headed for home and on the way back we crashed.’ He said, the, the ‘We had problems, engine problems and in trying to avoid these houses the wing tip hit the ground and, he says, ‘And it slewed into the ground. My turret was thrown off into, into a field.’ He said, ‘My guns were buried in the ground.’ He said, ‘I was in hospital for a week.’ He said the mid upper turret, the mid upper gunner got away with it he got a broken leg but the rest of the crew were all killed. I said, ‘Oh good God.’ I says, ‘I wondered what happened.’ They just disappeared. So there you are. Made contact all those years later but how did he finally manage? Probably he managed to find me because with me doing so much on our website. I’m better known. More people know me then I remember them. That’s probably it isn’t it. Could be couldn’t it? But an interesting story that isn’t it? There you are.
MJ: Ahum
HJF: Now then. I want to carry on. On the 1st of June, is it on? Switch her on.
MJ: It is on.
HJF: Yeah. On the 1st of June ‘45 we were transferred from 50 squadron to 44 squadron to be part of, to be part of Tiger Force. The intention was to, to, to fly us straight out, quickly out to the Far East. As a matter of fact Okinawa was going to be our base. So we, we went, we transferred to Spilsby. Now, from day one we started doing high level training. Anyway, I can’t remember but it was a few days after we got, one of our trips, it was only one and three quarter hour trips I think it was just about the worst one of all. I remember we’d got fourteen thousand pounds of bombs we were going to drop into dispersal area in the North Sea and as we taxied around all of a sudden, the port, the port inner set on fire. Now, the smoke was coming and filling my turret and I thought to myself silly bugger put your oxygen mask on, puthering in to me. Anyway, rapidly the, the engine was feathered and after a few minutes the Skip calls up flying control and tells them, ‘Engine fire. Waiting for instructions.’ We waited for instructions and a few minutes later the flying control calls, ‘Right, start the engine up. Give it a run up. Take off when you’re ready.’ When he switched off there was a chorus of voices, ‘We’re not bloody going, the stupid buggers, that engine wants checking. We’re not bloody going.’
MJ: Ahum
HJF: ‘We’re not bloody going.’ Anyway, Skipper in the meantime started the engine up. He revs it up, he says, ‘It seems ok to me. We’ve got to go.’ And we kept saying, ‘We’re not bloody going.’ Anyway, we turns on to the, and eventually gets and I’m not joking I was full of trepidation. I could feel in my water that something else was going to happen. Now, anyway we’d just got our wheels off the deck and the starboard outer seized. Now, let’s just think about it. We’ve got a dicky port inner and we got a, a seized starboard outer and we’ve got fourteen thousand pound of bomb. I’m not, that’s as much as an aircraft immediately started to vibrate telling me, telling me she’s going to stall. She’s going to stall. Now, quick as that I thought, my apprehension just disappeared. I thought to myself I’m going to, I’m going to jump no matter what the height. So, quick as lightning I swings my turret to beams, pulls open the doors. like a flash I was sitting outside and there I sat outside listening to, feeling the violent vibrations of the, of the aircraft as it gradually gained speed and height. It took us about thirty minutes to get up to about two thousand feet and while I’m sitting there just thinking about myself there our poor old Skipper was at the front fighting to keep this aircraft in the air. What a brilliant, brilliant Skipper. Anyway, we eventually get, gradually the vibration stopped. We got to the dispersal area, drops the bombs as near, as near as we could and returned. That, that trip took an hour and a quarter and it seemed the longest one of all. Good God we were so close and then what turned out to be our final trip, final flight actually for seventy, nearly seventy years as far as I was concerned. We were taking part in a dodge operation. Which, Dodge Operations were returning, returning British soldiers, taking, taking Italian troops back to Italy, to Bari in Italy and bringing British soldiers home. Now, we’d been so many times we used to fly visual. We used to go down to Marseilles, turn left over Marseilles, out over, out over the North Sea to the tip of Corsica and, and, and then make for Rome and over Rome straight for Bari. Now we were so casual about this we used to fly you know, anyway as it turns out the engineer, the engineer used to do a bit of piloting every so often. They used to keep their hand in. Anyway, fortunately the engineer had strapped himself in. Now we were carrying twenty one, twenty one Italians and I was sitting in the fuselage, in the fuselage. I was more or less a steward. Now, we were climbing, we were climbing up to ten tenths cloud. Now it was a very, very stormy day. Very, very hot day. Tropical storms everywhere and as it turned out we were the only aircraft only two of us arrived at Bari. Aircraft were diverted all different places. Anyway, we were climbing up through ten tenths cloud at ten thousand feet when all of a sudden cause safety height over, to cross the tip of Corsica, safety height being eleven thousand feet when all of a sudden the aircraft veered straight up, straight up and we flew slap bang into the centre of cunim, Now the tremendous upward force hit the belly of the, hit the aircraft and flung it straight up in the air. She stalled, dropped on her back and started to vertically drop down. Now, the Skipper standing by the side of the engineer as I say he was, he was, he was piloting was thrown up to the roof and he dragged himself around the, and for a time he thought to himself bloody hell we’re going. I’m going to drag myself back. Then he realised that the flight engineer was beginning to get a bit of joy so he drags himself around the fuselage, the side of the fuselage to a standing position alongside him and there was only single controls in a Lancaster. He then grabs hold of the controls and the two of them used all their strength to pull the aircraft out, out of its vertical dive. Now, as I told you I was in the back of the aircraft looking after these, looking after the Italians. I was thrown up to the ceiling and a water tank that was there for them floated up in the air, floated up in the air and were virtually trapped beyond the fuselage and as I looked, I could look at the back and there was, we’d got a Lancaster wheel in in the back, in the back which we were taking. Probably somebody had a burst tire. They’d left it loose. The silly buggers had left it loose. I watched this, watched this Lancaster wheel do a full circle of the fuselage. It smashed the auto gyro and it went around and it hit the machine gun ducts and right to the side of the ducts were the, were the rudder bar controls and I thought to myself, I was praying that it wouldn’t come rolling towards us when the next second, the next second with a slam I was banged down, banged down on to the floor, banged down on to the floor and I dragged myself up. All the Italians were in a complete panic and without thinking I just slotted the bloke at the side of me, slotted him, knocked him down and said, ‘Lie down.’ I made him lie down. Anyway, then I thought to myself, I thought as I’m standing there I thought to myself, actually I called Skip up. I said oh I think one of these, one of these Italians had pulled the [aerial] controls and we knew we’d lost an aircraft through somebody pulled themselves, their all external inside the aircraft and pulled them up and it had caused the aircraft to crash because it was almost you know in a position where they couldn’t change so I thought that’s what had happened, Anyway, as I’m standing looking all of a sudden the aircraft reared up again but not quite as bad. So I thought sod it I’ll have a look at this. Now our mid upper gunner had been transferred because of the end of the war you see, had transferred so I climbed into his turret and I was amazed. We should have been at eleven thousand feet to cross over safely over the tip of Corsica. We were then travelling along the coastline on the edge of the mountains, parallel. Somehow or other in the process of diving vertically we’d changed direction. Now, I don’t know whether it were luck or whether it was the skill of our pilot but anyway we turned, we were flying along the coast of, coast, coastline. Now then we came into land. Now at Bari, at Bari there was only one single runway. One single runway. And, and aircraft were, aircraft were positioned, were parked either side of the runway. Yanks on the left, yanks on one side and all Lancasters on the other. Now, as we came in to land, another thing, just at the end of the runway was a, was a large quarry and on very hot days, on very hot days used to cause an air pocket above the, right above the end of the runway. Now Skipper might have forgotten that or it might have been just because let’s face it I was stressed up and I was only looking after them, so God only knows how he was feeling but anyway as we came in to land we dropped from about sixty foot straight down. We hit the ground, we hit the tarmac with such a bang and the aircraft reared off, reared off, slewed to, slewed to port and, and coming, taxiing right down, right down just in front of us was a, was a flying fortress. We were heading straight for it. Skip immediately slams port throttle, full port throttle on, slews the aircraft and I could feel the undercarriage bending. Why it didn’t break I don’t know and there we are slewing across to the other side and going straight for the Lancs and he shoved full throttle on the other side and we straightened out and that was it and we levelled out. Now, you might have thought that was enough trouble for one thing but when we were coming up, we stayed there four days and I remember I was standing, we were waiting to return and we were standing about halfway along the runway and there were thousands of troops, thousands. There were hundreds of aircraft and thousands of troops, American and British, and we were watching the first Lancaster to take off and it came by us and it was almost as it came flashing by us it was almost at take-off speed when all of a sudden it turned completely ninety degrees. Now there were four line I think, I can’t remember whether it was three line or four lines but it went through the first ones, first ones, missed all the aircraft but hit another one in the line absolutely broadside and just as it hit its undercarriage collapsed but when it hit it’s props were churning into the side of the aircraft churning, churning. Now, thousands of us ran across thinking to ourself, expecting that there would be many many fatalities, many many fatalities but when we got to the aircraft, when we got to the aircraft there was a great big hole in the nose of the aircraft. Three, three, three soldiers climbed out of the front of the nose and do you know and people were pouring out of all sides of the engine. All sides of the aircraft. Do you know there were thousands of people out but do you know to my knowledge there was only one person, there were nobody killed and one person injured and that was he was injured through flying glass. Absolutely fantastic. I thought to myself this is a bloody mugs game. It’s time I pack this game up. Well I’ll tell you now it was an uneventful trip back to the, back to the, back to England but that was the last time I flew in any aircraft until about 2012.
[laughs] 1.38.08
Now, at the, I now over the years, over the years over the last, nearly twenty years I’ve been involved with the 50 and 61 Squadron Association website. Now, quite honestly I never, until, until I was in my seventies I’d never used a computer. But anyway, anyway I was instrumental in helping, helping, eventually, not for a start in helping to start up our website 50 and 61 Squadron Association websites. Now, I have a veteran’s album. I don’t do hardly anything these days Mike [Connock] does it but until, at our reunion 209 Air Vice Marshall Nigel Baldwin came up to me and says, ‘James, I’ve got a story here, an interesting story which would be good for your veterans album.’ Now, it was then I was interested to, I was then introduced to a person called Chris Keltie. Now -
Other: I don’t want to hear your secrets.
HJF: Yeah Chris Keltie. He then, Chris told me a story which at the time -
Other: Make him at least give you a drink.
HJF: No. No. You’re alright.
Other: At least make him. Now I’m telling you. Go on.
HJF: Oh did, did we bring that cup of coffee in? Did we leave that coffee in there? I don’t think we did did we?
MJ: No.
HJF: Oh bloody hell we forgot. Oh sorry.
HJF: As I say. Chris Keltie. Chris Keltie. He told me a story which at the time I just didn’t believe. I couldn’t believe that anybody, because of my experiences, I couldn’t believe that anybody could do what I was being told but he was telling me that a pilot whilst severely injured and weakened by loss of blood had regained control of an earthbound Lancaster and, and in pitch darkness brought the thing in to land and thereby saved the lives of, as it turned out, three of his crew members. For this he got nothing. Not even get, now I’ll tell you the full story. On the, it’s Victoria stuff. Victoria Cross stuff. I’m not joking with you. It was in July 1944 I can’t quite remember exact date. It might have been the 4th or 5th. Anyway, they successfully, they were bombing a V1 bomb site. It was 61 squadron aircraft. QR D Dog was the aircraft. Bill North was, Bill North, flight lieutenant. He was the flying officer at the time but it was Bill North, Bill North was the pilot and his aircraft was QR Dog. Now they were to, from thirteen thousand feet they were going to bomb the V1 sites. Now, which they were the first aircraft to bomb it and after, as they left the target an FW190 sprayed their aircraft. It blew away the fin, the port fin. It blew away the port fin. Blew away the port outer engine and fuel tank and it also it splattered the middle of the turret. Now, the mid upper gunner, now I used to say it was either between six and eight bullets, non life saving bullets in his body. Unbelievable. Splattered the turret. Anyway, it splattered all the Perspex, the cockpit Perspex and, and the pilot screamed out in agony as four bullets hit him. Two in his thigh and two in his left arm. Now, his left arm one of them hit the nerve and it paralysed his arm so his arm was flailing there. Now, immediately and the aircraft immediately begins, it’s earthbound screaming towards the earth. He immediately gives instructions to bail out and begins to drag himself out to go to the escape hatch. Now, as he drags himself out of the seat the flight engineer who is sitting by his side reaches back. Now, as the pilot had sat on his parachute. Now, but the, but the flight engineer and the rest most of the crew, the rear turret and rear gunner all had clip on chutes now his was clipped on the fuselage. Now, he reaches back to unclip his, his ‘chute off the fuselage, the side of the fuselage and as he pulls it off it’s been shot to pieces by bullets. It’s just at that point Bill was about to drop out of the escape hatch. Quickly he grabs hold of his shoulder and shouts my parachutes gone, my parachutes gone. Now, nobody would have blamed Bill North If he’d have thought to himself nothing I can do. I’m badly injured myself and just to have gone just to continue to drop out but without one second thought he made a conscious decision to drag himself back into his to his controls. Now, the, the landing an aircraft, a Lancaster is a two man job. You need, you need the help of the flight engineer. The flight engineer was frozen with fear. Couldn’t do anything. Now, Bill North, with one hand, his adrenalin must have been five hundred percent I have no idea how he did it but unbelievably with the aircraft screaming earthbound he regains control and in pitch darkness not only did he regain control but in this very heavily wooded area he found, he found a clearing, brought the aircraft in to land from an impossible height at an impossible speed. No, no flaps involved because the bloke couldn’t, the flight engineer couldn’t do anything. Had the presence of mind as he brought the aircraft in to land it tail down so there would be less danger of fuel tank, of fuel explosion and landed and when it became stationery he was so weak from the loss of blood that he slipped into unconsciousness. Now then, as it turned out not only had he saved the life of the flight engineer alongside him but apparently the mid upper gunner and another person, I think wireless operator, were both trapped in the fuselage because their turret ‘chutes had been shot to pieces, so they, as I say he slipped into unconsciousness so they had to carry, carry him, they had to carry him out of the aircraft and as they laid him on the grass at the side of the plane he slipped into unconsciousness and they thought he was dying. Anyway, time went by. The French were involved but I can’t remember who else was involved but in time the Germans came, whisked him into a hospital and he remained in hospital for several months after which he was, he was transferred to a concentration camp and he finished the war, and finished the war in a concentration camp. For this he didn’t get any mention in despatches. Not even a mention in despatches. Absolutely disgraceful. This is, this is, this is VC stuff. Now when Mr Ball when, when Nigel Ball contacted me I, I wrote this story, this was several years before, I wrote his story on my website. Now last year, October during last year the, the sons of, of Bill North, he’d passed away the year before, wrote to David Cameron to thank him for what he’d to done to get the air crew their memorial in London and thanked him for getting the clasp. Bloody clasp. Ridiculous. Anyway, anyway out of the blue, credit to David Cameron. David Cameron phoned them personally. No wrote to them personally and invited to them to come and see him at the, at the House of Commons. Now, they decided that what a golden opportunity this to try and get a posthumous award for their father. So they put together a delegation of about ten people and they wanted a representative of the squadron association to be, to be, to be with them. Now, as to whether I was the only one or not I’ve no idea but I was the person that was invited to go. Now, I travelled down to London and I remember, I remember we, we, David Cameron was wonderful actually. I remember he took us and we were chatting to him in his office and he was chatting to all the party and I couldn’t hear him he was right at the far end of the room and I says, ‘I can’t hear.’ And he says, ‘ok’ and got, upped sticks and came and sat right to the side of me and I’m listening to them talking. Now, quite honestly as I was listening to him you know how people are when they’re talking to someone of higher authority? They, they become meek and mild don’t they? And I’m listening and I don’t hear very well. After they’d been going on for quite some time I thought to myself they’re missing the point so in actual fact I had spoken to him and told him that why I was there to represent the association and I, I interceded. I said, ‘But sir, we’re missing the point of our visit.’ and I says and I then went into detail of this, of what Bill North had done and I says to him this is bloody Victoria Cross stuff and for this he gets nothing. Not even a mention in despatches. This is a complete disgrace and I remember, I remember David Cameron looked set aback and he looks at me and says, ‘Well I don’t know. All the hassle I’m getting here.’ He said in a friendly way. It wasn’t nasty. ‘All the hassle I’m getting here and he says the hassle I’ve had in question time today and he says and it’s my birthday today.’ And I said, ‘I beg your pardon?’ He said, ‘It’s my birthday today.’ I says, ‘It’s mine as well’ and he reached over and he said, ‘Birthday boys.’ [laughs]
[laugh]
There you are but do you know something we had, we had a celebration last year for my ninetieth birthday and, and, and seventieth wedding anniversary and last year. It was in October. October. And last year, about three weeks before our, before our party a friend of ours and I don’t know how he got this phone number my friend answers the phone and this voice says, ‘Hello, this is David Cameron here’ and she says, ‘Oh don’t – tell me another one.’ And he said, ‘No. This is David Cameron ringing from the House of Commons. Can you give me the details of Mr and Mrs Flowers celebrations’ on the, and you know he said, ‘Because I want to send them a letter’ and lo and behold lo and behold on the, on the, my birthday arrives a letter comes, ‘Dear Mr Flowers,’ from the House of Commons ‘I’m writing to you wish you a very happy ninetieth birthday. This is a marvellous occasion and I’m sure you will use this opportunity to celebrate all your many achievements and all you have seen and experienced. I would like to send you, Samantha and my best wishes for a wonderful birthday.’ That was on the 9th of October. On the 21st of October we gets another one. ‘Dear Mr and Mrs Flowers I am delighted to send my congratulations to you both on your seventieth wedding anniversary. It’s a huge achievement to celebrate such a long and happy marriage. A great example to family and friends and your local community. Samantha and I would like to wish you all the best on your anniversary. We very much hope you enjoy your celebrations. Have a lovely day. David Cameron.’ We of course did have the letter from the queen we all know the queen the queen had millions. She can’t do it personally do it you know that’s a secretary but to think that David Cameron made the effort during such political time to ring my friend up to find out details of our celebrations and then to ring us up and send this. As a matter of fact I sent him a Christmas card and he sent me a Christmas card back.
[laughs]
There you are, now, that’s different isn’t it? In conclusion I would like to go back to the time in 1941/2, I can’t remember the exact date, my first sighting of my dear wife. Of my Eunice. I remember at the time I was working on munitions twelve hour shifts a day, week about and I was on daylight day shifts this time and I’d finished at 7 o’clock, cycled home and, and home and quick change and cycled back two miles to Sutton in Ashfield baths which had been converted to a dance hall and as I went in it had a balcony. I went in about 9 o’clock. I climbed the stairs to the balcony and I remember looking down and it was a teeming mass of dancing local people, RAF, navy all having an absolute, and a wonderful band with all the top, all having, and the RAC band was there. It had top musicians in it and I remember I was looking down and I saw right beneath me I saw this beautiful young lady in a yellow and white check dress. I’m not saying anything wrong but she was flitting from one male to, from one friend to another. She was obviously the life and soul of the party and I thought to myself God what a cracker. So, quick as lightning I rushed downstairs and I stood in the background until the opportunity came and I tapped her on the shoulder and I said to her, ‘Can I have a dance please?’ and ‘ Yes.’ And the first time I held her in my arms oh she didn’t have make me quiver and it was the first time that I met my dear wife. [laughs] How I ended up with her I will never know. She was so beautiful and so energetic. She was out every night dancing. There were thousands of soldiers all around training all on the lookout, all on the lookout for, for, for as beautiful women and here I was just working on munitions. Nothing going for me. My chances of making a go with her were very very slim. Anyway, gradually I became a friends. It was two years before she’d call me a friend. But there you are. That’s how I met my dear wife and there we are seventy years later. Love of my life. Still feel as we did as all those years ago. Beautiful woman. Still beautiful woman still beautiful in my eyes. How’s that. As I say I’m in my ninetieth year and I can’t help thinking of my family. Thinking of the time on the 25th October when our first son Ian was born and when he was accidently deaf when he was only thirteen and a half you never get over it, time never heals it. The birth of my second son Richard and when he was accidentally shot in the head by his wife. He was so lucky to have survived. Then my third Phillip born ‘68, ‘58 and to his lovely daughter. She was absolutely beautiful. Passed away when she was two years and nine months. Then there was my fourth son was a whopper when he was born and the, and the midwife says to my he’s the biggest baby I’ve ever had and she said ironically he’s the biggest baby I’ve had as well. Then I think to the stresses and strains and excitement I felt during my aircrew years and the thirty two years as a driving examiner and to the pleasure we felt on the birth of two granddaughters, eight grandsons, fourteen great grandchildren and finally I recall the seventy years that I’ve been married to my dear wife Eunice. I can’t help thinking of all the times I felt like throwing her in the bloody river or burying her with the plants in the garden yet despite all this she still remains the love of my life. Such wonderful memories.
I would like to end by saying that during the time that we, as a crew, were involved in bomber operations we were attacked by ME109s, JU88s, FW190s, ME262s jet fighters, passed through flak you could have walked on, almost touched passing aircraft, almost crashed through fuel shortage and fell vertically from eleven thousand to five hundred feet. Nothing special. Just the normal sort of thing that most Bomber Command aircrew had to put up with during World War 2. Happy days.
MJ: On behalf of the Bomber Command I’d like to thank James Flowers for his interview on the 2nd of June 2015. This is Michael Jeffries, recordist.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with James Flowers
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Horace James Flowers was born and grew up in Huthwaite, Nottinghamshire. He became an apprentice butcher before being released to volunteer for the Royal Air Force in 1944. He trained as an air gunner at RAF Bridgnorth, RAF Wigsley and RAF Syerston and attained the rank of flight sergeant, serving largely with 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. He recounts his experiences on several operations, including Bohlen, Nordhausen, Lutzendorf and Hamburg. He was transferred to 44 squadron in June 1945 as part of the intended Tiger Force and also took part in Operation Dodge. He also discusses how he met his wife, Eunice, and their marriage in 1944, his role with the 50/61 Squadron Association after the war, authorship of a memoir ‘A Tail End Charlie’s Story’ and the occasion of his ninetieth birthday when he received a call from the Prime Minister, David Cameron.
Creator
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Michael Jeffries
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Format
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01:58:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Identifier
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AFlowersHJ150602, PFlowersHJ1501, PFlowersHJ1502
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Böhlen
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
Germany--Lutzendorf
Germany--Hamburg
Germany
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
44 Squadron
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bomb struck
bombing
fear
final resting place
Fw 190
Ju 88
love and romance
Master Bomber
Me 109
Me 262
military discipline
military ethos
military service conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
P-51
Pathfinders
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
recruitment
Spitfire
Stirling
Tallboy
target indicator
Tiger force
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/209/3348/ABellJR150727.2.mp3
9d02f41eac38212c78457bf9772c6f97
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bell, John Richard
John Richard Bell
John R Bell
John Bell
J R Bell
J Bell
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Wing Commander John Richard Bell DFC (-2024). He was a bomb aimer with 619 and 617 Squadrons in Flying Officer Bob Knights’ crew.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bell, JR-UK
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
The interview is taking place at Mr Bell’s home in Storrington on 27th July 2015. During this interview Mr Bell recounts his experiences as a bomb aimer in 617 Squadron.
JB: I and my crew begged Wing Commander Cheshire when we asked if we could join his squadron and he was sat in his office, very nice man to talk to, we were an experienced crew and he still wanted to know why we wanted to join his squadron, so we told him that we would like to be flying a little lower, nearer the ground, but he said ‘oh, but we’re not going to be doing that any more, we’re operating normally’ which of course they were but they were operating mainly over targets in northern France, practically to the build up to the invasion obviously and one installation that I remember on operation was against the [unclear] works at Limoges which was the first time that Leonard Cheshire had marked the target with his own flares and, er, having found that marking was essential he came over the factory at about two to three hundred feet and dropped twice, to drop flares on the target and to ensure that the French workers in the factory could get out and get into the shelter, the word being that we should try to avoid killing French workers during our bombing campaign. He was a very compassionate man and very easy to talk to and very good, very easy to get on with, he didn’t stand on ceremony and he didn’t order you to do things, he just asked you to follow him, whatever he was prepared to do, he was an exceptional man, an exceptional leader. Early in 1944 the Allies became aware of [unclear] reconnaissance of some large structures, concrete structures being built in the Pas de Calais area of France. They did not know what they were at that time although they suspected they were something to do with the V weapons programme which had been discovered after the attacks on Peenemunde. Following the attack on Peenemunde it was known that the Germans were developing two weapons, a rocket programme and also a pilot’s - aeroplane programme carrying, each carrying one tonne of explosive warheads. The V1 launch site was discovered in the Pas de Calais area early in 1944 and also at that time the two large concrete structures which the Allies were not sure of their purpose but felt they were probably connected to the rocket – V2 Rocket programme. The V1 sites were attacked by Bomber Command throughout the next three months of 1944 and the construction of the - what became known as the V2 programme, the two sites, one in the Eperlecques Forest and one near Saint-Omer at [unclear] were watched as the building progressed but they were large concrete structures and could not be attacked, although they were attacked with conventional weapons but not put out of action until the 617 Squadron was equipped with the Tallboy in June 1944. The site at [unclear] near Saint-Omer consisted of a chalk quarry with a cliff at the far end of the quarry and on the top of the cliff we saw the construction of a concrete dome, obviously built there to protect the workings within the cliff. 617 Squadron were assigned to attack it on – several times in June and July, I think about four times altogether, mainly because of cloud interfering on two occasions and Tallboys were used to destroy all the facilities of the site and in fact one landed close to this concrete dome which obviously destroyed the foundations of the structure. One of the operations I was on was the 17th July 1944 and it was a clear day and we approached the site from the north-west and from a long way away I could see quite clearly, from the bomb aimer’s position, the dome covering the installation in the quarry. We approached at the normal speed of close on one hundred and eighty to two hundred miles an hour and at a height of around eighteen thousand feet. I signed up er [pause]
AP: It’s OK John, just keep -
JB: I switched on the bomb sight and carried out all of the normal procedures for the bombing run and directed the pilot to - on the bombing run. This took some time, we were on the run for at least five minutes and the - I had the dome in my bomb sight for all of that time and at the appropriate moment the bomb was automatically released. It was a clear day and I saw the bomb – the Tallboy going down and I followed it all the way down to the target and it exploded just beside the dome, there was an enormous explosion, so that was recorded as an almost - a direct hit and in fact I did shout out ‘Bullseye’ to the crew to let them know that we’d had a pretty good hit.
AP: And the consequence of what happened, about what it did, can you talk a little bit about what – later on you discovered that -
JB: Later, much later, we discovered that the foundations of the dome - the supports of the dome had been severely disrupted and it had tilted to one side. Obviously the site was then unusable, other Tallboys had bombed the whole of the site and the whole facility was useless by then. On the 25th of July 1944 the squadron continued its attacks on the V weapons sites in the Pas de Calais, we bombed the first V2 site that we’d seen at the Eperlecques Forest and this was a large concrete structure which would have taken a great deal of destruction by Tallboys to put it out of action. It - there were several direct hits on the target on that particular day and eventually the installation was put out of action by our attacks and only the oxygen-producing facility was maintained there. Both sites were never able to launch V2s as they were programmed to do. A third construction site was discovered at a village called Mimoyecques, also in the Pas de Calais area, and it was noted that there were a number of concrete underground installations with a pattern of openings in the tops of the structures. The purpose was not known although it was thought that they were – it was going to be used for the launch of some sort of rocket projectile. The whole site was bombed by the main force of Bomber Command and also by 617 Squadron and their Tallboys were able to penetrate deep into the earth and destroy the foundations of these concrete structures, thereby putting it out of action. It was only discovered - the true purpose of the site was discovered after the Armies – the Allied Armies moved through following D-Day and found that it was a site designed to launch projectiles with a warhead of several kilograms towards London and the number of missiles that would have been launched could have been as high as three thousand a day. The intention of the site was to bombard London with projectiles from these - from this supergun, each carrying a warhead of around thirty kilos of explosive and the intention was from the number of projectiles that they could launch would result in some three thousand shells, so-called shells landing in London every hour and the destruction of the site obviously saved London from an enormous barrage of artillery from long range. This site at Mimoyecques was extremely difficult to bomb because it was all buried underground and there was very little to see on the surface except two concrete structures but er – and of course the whole of the site had been bombed pretty heavily by the normal weapons by aircraft from Bomber Command and the United States Airforce so the 617 crews had difficulty in seeing the site but nevertheless were accurate enough with their Tallboys. On July 6th 1944 617 Squadron aircraft, led by the CO, Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire, attacked the site at Mimoyecques with Tallboys and completely destroyed the site. This operation on the V3 site at Mimoyecques was Wing Commander Cheshire’s one hundredth bombing operation throughout his bombing career from 1941 onwards and he was stood down from bombing following that day, he was then awarded the Victoria Cross for completing all the operations and for his valour in doing so and his leadership and he was followed in command of the squadron by Wing Commander [unclear] Tate, Wing Commander Tate. In 1941 Barnes Wallis who had given great thought to the bombing of various targets in Germany, particularly those underground or buried installations, and he saw the need for a bomb other than a blast bomb, which was currently in use, a bomb to penetrate the earth and explode below causing some sort of an earthquake. His thought at that time was for a very large bomber flying at forty thousand feet and carrying a ten tonne bomb which of course was quite impractical at that time, but in 1943 the launch of the Air Ministry brought out his project again and asked him to design something that could be carried by perhaps the aircraft of the day, the Lancaster, and so he designed what became known as the Tallboy and he designed it in three sizes – four thousand pounds, twelve thousand pounds and twenty-two thousand pounds, all at that time called Tallboys. The four thousand pound was tested and was found not to be as stable as they thought it should be so the fins on the tail were turned to five degrees from the vertical and this helped to - the bomb to spin as it was dropped thereby giving it great stability and the twelve thousand pounder then became known as the Tallboy and the twenty-two thousand pounder was called the Grand Slam, the twelve thousand pounder was issued to 617 Squadron immediately after D-Day and the first operation was against the Saumur tunnel on I think the 9th of June 1944 and the – it was a complete success in destroying the tunnel and from then on the squadron operated almost solely with Tallboys and later with the Grand Slam, the weapons being central in the destruction of the V weapon sites and any other installation that had been buried below the ground. It had also of course - was later found very – found to be the ideal weapon for destroying bridges and canals so a great weapon by Barnes Wallis again used by the squadron. On the 5th August 1944 we carried out a daylight attack on the U-Boat pens at Brest. This was in bright daylight, sunny day, and I can remember dropping my Tallboy onto the area of the pens and I think it hit fairly close by. My memory of the day is that there was an enormous amount of flak, very heavy flak over the target area but we were, we were not hit, we escaped. My job in the crew in the Lancaster was as a bomb aimer and also as front gunner if need be and my job was to guide the pilot towards the target and then to concentrate on dropping the bombs on whatever the target was and dropping them as accurate as possible and my abiding picture of the whole of all the operations I did, particularly those over Germany at night, was of approaching the target area - the city that was under attack or was about to be attacked and to be met with a wall of anti-aircraft fire. The German gunners would fire their shells into a box at around twenty thousand feet, which was the height we were aiming at, aiming to be at, and we just had to fly through that. It was a pretty awesome sight to behold some miles before we reached the target but by concentrating on what we had to do we just had to ignore it, there was no way you could ig – you could dodge anti-aircraft shells, you just have to fly through them and hope that you’re not going to be hit even by a small amount of shrapnel which of course could damage a vital part of the aeroplane but we were very fortunate that all our operations – that we got through all of them unscathed. Following the raid on the German dams 617 Squadron later became, became used to operate on many other targets for which it was equipped with a bomb sight, a new bomb sight, the stabilising automatic bomb site, also known as SABS. This was a precision-built bomb sight and it was not, it was not used in any other – by any other squadron, mainly because it was difficult to build and very few were actually made. The invention and design of the Tallboy weapon by Barnes Wallis was the – a most important weapon that arrived at the right time in 1944. It was the only weapon that could have destroyed the targets against which it was used, conventional weapons at that time were blast weapons and would have had little or no effect on the structures that the Tallboy attacked and it was, it was essential of course to use it against targets which were buried underground and also, er, heavily armoured targets like battleships, the [targets ?] could never have been bombed by anything else other than a Tallboy so the Tallboy was really the crux of the whole bombing campaign from 1944 onwards to, to hasten the end of the war by destroying those targets which the Germans hoped to use to counter the invasion forces, it just was the [emphasis] weapon that was needed at the right time. The Tallboy was carried in the bomb bay and supported in there by a strap which had – the connection of the strap was electrically operated by the bomb sight at the critical moment. The top of the bomb had a hole drilled in it and in the roof of the bomb bay was a metal plug and the plug was – so when the bomb was hoisted into the bomb bay it married up with the plug and the strap was fitted underneath it and that secured it into the bomb bay. At a critical moment the bomb sight automatically triggered the release mechanism for the bomb, the strap separated and the bomb dropped out. The wireless operator’s job was to go back and wind in the two straps – two parts of the strap. The one thing about the Tallboy was that it was expensive to produce and they could not be produced very quickly so they were in limited supply and we were told that if you can’t drop the bomb, if you can’t see the target, don’t drop it, just don’t drop them all over France said Leonard Cheshire and we were instructed to bring them back which we did on several occasions when cloud obscured the target and – or smoke and if we couldn’t see it clearly then we would bring the Tallboy back and landing with a twelve thousand pounder was not funny and one had to be very careful – the pilot land very carefully which he did of course and there were never any accidents with them as there were never any accidents with the crews that brought back the twenty-two thousand pound Grand Slam when they couldn’t drop it so the aircraft was built to carry it and we never had any problem with it. Following the raid on Brest on the 5th August I completed – that completed my 50 missions constituting two tours of operations that I could retire from operating now and attend to further duties in training other crews in the training, training line. The squadron went on to other targets on U-Boat pens and military and, and naval targets throughout the rest of the war.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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ABellJR150727
Title
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Interview with John Richard Bell
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:21:47 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated T Holmes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Panton
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-27
Description
An account of the resource
John Bell completed 50 operations as a bomb aimer with 617 Squadron before becoming an instructor.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
France--Mimoyecques
France--Saint-Omer (Pas-de-Calais)
France--Saumur
Germany--Peenemünde
France--Watten
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Gill Kavanagh
617 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of the Mimoyecques V-3 site (6 July 1944)
Bombing of the Saumur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
bombing of the Watten V-2 site (19 June 1944)
bombing of the Wizernes V-2 site (20, 22, 24 June 1944)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Tallboy
V-1
V-2
V-3
V-weapon
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/357/5519/PGrimesS1502.2.jpg
2f8c2b7688ba7d1fbece6737ceb4d3a8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/357/5519/AGrimesS151121.2.mp3
3cd700983bd130668fad69444d64890e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grimes, Syd
Syd Grimes
S V Grimes
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Sydney Grimes (173865, 1271597 Royal Air Force) a photograph, and his logbook. After training as a wireless operator/ air gunner he completed a tour on 106 Squadron at RAF Syerston. After a period as an instructor he joined 617 Squadron for his second tour where he took part in the attacks on the Tirpitz.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Grimes and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Grimes, SV
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SJ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is myself Sue Johnstone and the interviewee is Sid Grimes. The interview is taking place at Mr Grimes’ home in Mildenhall in Suffolk on the 21st of November 2015.
AG: I was born in a little village called Great Wakering near Southend on Sea, five miles from Southend on Sea and I lived there until I joined the Air Force. I was educated at the village school and also for part of the time at Southend Municipal College. When war broke out I was seventeen and eh my father was a Thames bargeman. I didn’t particularly want to go in the Navy although he would have preferred me to. My my brother went in the Navy, I didn’t want to go in the Army and I thought if I go in the Air Force and volunteered as a wireless operator. At that time I was working for EK Cole Ltd,Echo Radio and I thought if I knew something about the technology of radio I would be doing a more interesting job than as a clerk. So I joined the Air Force. I wasn’t accepted for training immediately because there was a real backlog of training. But I volunteered for wireless operator aircrew and I was called up in 1940. I trained at Blackpool, Yatesbury, Eventon,Madeley and all sorts of places as wireless operator. Eventually I ended up as a sergeant wireless operator at Cottesmore in Rutland. ‘Is this alright?’
SJ: This is absolutely fine, this is fantastic.
AG: Eh, I then met my first pilot a man called Stevens, a Welshman always known as Steve eh and the four others of the crew, so. And eh we trained on Wellingtons until he was eh, he was,treated as a bomber pilot then. We then moved to a conversion unit where we flew Manchesters and Lancasters. Having passed out then we went to a place called Syerston near Newark. Now this 106 Squadron was Guy Gibsons’ Squadron, but he must have known that I was coming because he left the two days before. [laughs] No I don’t know if it was two days but a few days before. So I joined 617 Squadron [think he meant 106] and by that time we had picked up a mid upper gunner and a flight engineer, to the Wellington crew so we were now seven. And I did a tour with 106 Squadron until September 1943. Now that was almost entirely the Battle of the Ruhr. but it did include places like Hamburg and Berlin, one or two other places just outside the Ruhr. So having completed a tour of operations which was a real dodgy period. We had some very heavy losses in the Battle of the Ruhr. In fact my crew was only the second one to finish a tour while I was there. And a lot of people came and went fairly quickly so. I do not know how many losses 617, 106 Squadron had in that period. But we were only the second one to finish. I then went to a place called Balderton just outside Newark which was eh, the residue of the Five Lancaster Finishing School, Five Group Lancaster Finishing School. And eh an interesting thing happened to me there because we hadn’t got any pupils to train then, they were coming in a couple of weeks time and we were getting the place ready. A wing commander arrived, Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire and eh he had been operating in Four Group up in Yorkshire on Halifax’s. And when he came to take over 617 Squadron the AOC said, ‘you had better go and learn to fly a Lancaster.’ So he eh hummed and had and said. ‘Well I have been flying Halifaxs for two years.’ But he said ‘No you go and learn it.’ So he came, he hadn’t got a clue so I went with him and four others. And we became, and I am very proud to tell you, I have in my log book. Four times I flew with him while he learnt to fly a Lancaster. [laugh]. I then went from there to the permanent base for Five Lancaster School of eh, Lancaster Group, School at Syerston again. And I stayed there instructing until I done a foolish thing. I was engaged to be married and I saw in orders that there was a course for RT speech unit, at Stanmore. And I thought if I went to Stanmore, Iris was nursing at Leightonstone, Whipps Cross Hospital, Leightonstone. I would undoubtedly get a couple of days before I reported back. So I did this RT speech course, but I was quite good at it actually and of the six of us I got chosen to form this RT speech unit.
SJ: Brilliant.
AG: At Scampton, so I went there and very foolishly I had to do the same lecture four times a day seven days a week.
SJ: How’s that?
AG: And I met a man called Barney Gumbley, a New Zealander and we sat chat. Chatting in the mess one day and he said. ‘I am going back on ops, are you interested?’ I said. ‘Can we go tomorrow?’ [laugh]. So he said. ‘Well I have got an interview for Pathfinders and an interview for 617 have you any preference?’ I said was, Pathfinders was Eight Group and eh I quite like Five Group, I like the people in it. So I said ‘I’d rather go to 617.’ He said ‘It is a good job you said that, for the rest of us want to go there too.’ [laugh]. Anyway about ten days later I got a phone call to say. ‘There is a van picking you up at nine o’clock tomorrow morning.’ I said. ‘Where are we going?’ He said. ‘We are going to Woodhall Spa to joing 617 Squadron.’ So of I went in this van and eh the mess, the Officers Mess, was eh ‘oh dear, oh dear’ I can’t think of it.
SJ: What Woodhall Spa?
AG: At Woodhall Spa, it was the Officers Mess eh.
SJ: Was it the Petwood?
AG: Petwood.
SJ: Petwood Hotel.
AG: Petwood hotel and eh it dropped me there and I reported at the desk which had, [unclear] which had got a WAAF on it. And she said ‘Oh yes we’ve got a room for you.’ So of I went to this room, Barney Gumley was told I was here but he was up at the flight which was about a mile and a half away. He came down and introduced me to the rest of the crew, but no one thought about booking me in.[laugh]. And I did the two ops to the Tirpitz at Tromso before they suddenly realised I wasn’t on the squadron. [laugh] By that time I had done two trips.
SJ: Then they checked you in.
AG: They checked me in they thought I had better be legitimate. So I, I was with 617 from the September ’44 through ‘til April 1945. We had been flying the Barnes Wallis Tall Boy bomb which was 12000 pounds. And then he came up with a much bigger invention, the Grand Slam which was 22000 pounds. In order to accommodate the big bomb they had to take the bomb doors off, and they took the mid upper turret off, and they took all the armour plating out. They really did a modified Lancaster which only took a crew of five. Took all the wireless equipment out except for a VHF transmitter,RT. So I was surplus so I said to the flight commander. ‘ I have only got three more trips to do can I fly in the astrodome as a fighter observer or something like that?’ He said. ‘Under no circumstances, we are trying to find reasons for loosing weight.’ And he said. ‘You want to go and fly.’ He wouldn’t let me and the crew got shot down on the very next trip. So they got hit by and anti aircraft shell on the port wing and it shot it completely away. So they were on the bombing run at that time which was the dicey part of the trip. Because eh, the special bomb sight that we had, we had to fly straight and level. It was gyroscopically controlled, so you had to fly very accurately with height, speed and all the outside temperatures. And all that kind of thing which you fed in to this computer. So they was, the squadron flew in what was called a gaggle. A geese gaggle you know? The way that they fly in the sky.
SJ: A formation.
AG: A formation, and that gaggle when you were stepped sideways and up and down in a very large box. It was designed so that the whole squadron, twenty of us could bomb without impeding each other, all on the same bombing run. You were actually converging you see, so all the bombs had gone before you actually hit each other. It was a very clever little devise and this anti aircraft shell shot their port wing off so that it. It just spiralled in [unclear], and it was spiralling so quickly, if anybody was still alive in the aircraft eh they couldn’t have got out anyway. And of course the bomb went off as soon as it hit the ground. Because as they were on the bombing run the bomb aimer had already fused it.
SJ: Eh, you don’t remember which aircraft it was?
AG: Yes it is in, I flew with them. ‘Just sit down my dear.’ You can put it off for a bit.
SJ: I was going to pause it for a second.
AG: YZL, PD117 The number of the aircraft was PD117.[pause]
SJ: That looks like a well looked through log book.
AG: Just to prove Wing Commander Cheshire.
SJ: Yes that’s where he had gone to. That is local flying that was part of his training. [laugh]
AG: That’s right, I always say that he was my pupil.
SJ: [laugh] that’s brilliant. So what happened next, you were moved to 617 you were there for a six months.
AG: Yes and I done seventeen trips.
SJ: Seventeen trips.
AG: I got three more to do.[pause] ‘I will just have a cough sweet.’
SJ: That is no problem, that’s fine.
AG: [pause while uwrapping sweet] ‘Will you stay for some lunch?’
SJ: Oh, might do if that’s all right, yeah.
AG: I have got a beef casserole.
SJ: Lovely, that sounds fantastic.
AG: Right, I will heat it up in a minute.
SJ: [Laughs]
AG: ‘Sorry, I was, what was I saying —.
SJ: You were saying about 617 Squadron when you left.
AG: Yes I went to 9 Squadron who was the other squadron that had the tallboys, they didn’t have the grand slam, so that they still needed wireless operators. So I went over to 9 Squadron about three weeks before the end of the war. After we, I then had to make a decision, I was asked did I want to go to the far east against Japan. By that time I was married.
SJ: When did you get married?
AG: I got married the month before I joined 617, Iris never knew I had volunteered to go back.
SJ: Did you ever tell her.
AG: I have since, she was indignant. [laugh]. But I always said she was in a more dangerous situation as a nurse in Whipps Cross Hospital near the docks.
SJ: Was she always a nurse then?
AG: I didn’t say how I met her, did I?
SJ: You didn’t no.
AG: Can I digress?
SJ: Yes that will be fantastic to know.
AG: She was born in Woodford. But before the war they moved down to a little village called Rochford just outside Southend. And she wanted to be a nurse but they wouldn’t take her until she was seventeen. So she came to Echo as a copy typist. I was one of the senior, not senior clerks but I was, I was fairly well up. I had been there three years. And I met her and I liked the look of her and so after I went in the Air Force I kept in touch with her. And you know, I’d spent about no more than about ten days in her company, up to the time we got married. Because when I came on leave we always went to see a London show but that was about the only time we could get of. ’Forgive me sucking the sweet.’
SJ: Oh no it’s fine, not to worry.
AG: And that is how I met her. So I decided I didn’t want to go to the Far East I thought that having done about forty six trips, I didn’t , the neck had gone out too far. So I got posted to 50 Squadron at a place called Sturgate which was up near, in North Lincolnshire. And we were then flying; first of all we were flying prisoners of war from Brussels to England, in the Lancasters. We used to take, I think it was twenty or twenty four depending on what kit they got in the Lancaster fuselage sitting on the floor But they didn’t mind that as long as they were coming to England. After we got all the POWs back we then started bringing people back from leave from Italy. And we used to fly to Naples and pick up about twenty Air Force or Army people at a place call Pernicano, which is just outside Naples. Eh after a time they decided that was going to stop because shipping was available to bring them back in larger quantities anyway. And the Mediterranean was open so they stopped doing it. So I then got posted to do a code and cipher course down at a place called Compton Bassett near Calne in Wiltshire. And having passed that course I got posted to Germany ostensibly to be the CO of a small mobile signals unit. Which was one officer, one sergeant, one corporal and about ten men. When I got there I was told it was based at a place called Stade[?] between Cookshaven and Haverg. So I arrived at Stade[?] and the CO said. ‘Oh I am glad to see you’ he said. ‘I lost my adjutant about two weeks ago you are my new adjutant.’ I said. ‘No I have a mobile signals regiment.’ He said. ‘No I closed that down yesterday and you are my new adjutant.’ But I said. ‘I know something about flying but I know nothing about anything else.’ He said. ‘I’ll teach you.’[laugh] and he became a very good friend of mine. We did all sorts of things together, we got up very early in the morning sometimes at dawn and went and shoot deer. Quite unofficial we hadn’t got a license from the Military Government or anything and it ended up in a very humorous story. We had this, there weren’t very many of us, these base signals on your radar unit, refurbished these units to be sent round to the aerodromes and various places including Berlin. So there were only about fifteen of us I suppose. And we were having dinner or preparing to have dinner one night and we had got deer for dinner. This happened, Military Government people and ourselves we didn’t mingle sociably ‘cause there was nothing else. So they arrived about four o’clock and didn’t look like moving. So the CO said to me ‘What do we do?’ I said ‘Well as they are the guests of our mess this evening you had better invite them to dinner. And as they are our guests they won’t be able to do anything about it.’ So they sat down to dinner with us and ate deer. And they did let us know that they were aware of it. I think they had been told off, they had a [unclear] [laugh]. Well that, I ended up demobilised in August 1946 and I got reinstatement rights if I went back to Echo, but I was offered a short service commission of two years. But if I had taken that it would have meant in all probability the Air Force would have been reducing in size so much that I would have then been demobilised. And I wouldn’t have had reinstatement rights, having been in what was the regular Air Force for two years. So eh I went back to Echo. And so as I say I didn’t know anything about being an adjutant and certainly nothing about earning my living in civvy street. But I was fortunate, the man who interviewed me was the deputy chief accountant of EK Cole Ltd. And he knew because I had told him that I was keen on cricket because he was interviewing me in depth. He said ‘That’s a good thing I am a life member of Lancashire.’ So he took me on his staff and he taught me accountancy. I did take a correspondence course was meeker compared with what he told me. So I was never able to be a chartered accountant because I didn’t take articles. I was earning my living, by that time I was increasing my family.
SJ: How many children have you got?
AG: I’ve got three, two of them became nurses and one, the boy went into insurance.
SJ: You had two girls and a boy.
AG: I am proud of them all.
SJ: Oh yeah I don’t blame you.
AG: So I was in the deputy chief accountants department. Then he got promoted to be the chief accountant and then he became promoted to eh; financial secretary and accountant to a number of subsidiaries. So as he went up my situation went up with him.
SJ: You went up as well, did you enjoy that?
AG: I couldn’t have been an accountant in a professional office because that would have been dull. That would have been checking, checking, checking, checking. What I liked about being in industry, I was always in a place that was making things and you could go there and see it all happening. It was accountancy, it was very important accountancy, but eh —.
SJ: Very different from your RAF days though?
AG: Yes very much so. I was an active member of the 617 Squadron Association and we went to a number of reunions in Canada, Australia, New Zealand eh France as a unit, we’ve gone and made friends wherever we went. I haven’t been to the last couple number of places because Iris became, eh unreliable, she was unsteady. I couldn’t take her onto aircraft and coaches and things like that. She came to, she came to Australia and New Zealand and to Canada but the —, When we went to France and Germany and the Netherlands we went by coach and ferry, she hates flying.
SJ: [laughs]
AG: ‘Now where have I got to?’ Eventually we got taken over, first by Pye from Cambridge and then Phillips who are Dutch of course. But the British office was at Croydon and eh I became the financial accountant, financial director in a number of subsidiaries around the group. But I ended up, I always wanted to be somewhere near Southend because my parents were still alive. And I owed a lot to my parents, I didn’t want to move right out of their orbit. And I then went to Canvey Island to a components factory. First of all as the financial director and then as the managing director. And from there I went back to Southend as the eh; managing director of Echo Instruments which made instrumentation for industry. Then I retired.
SJ: How long have you been retired now?
AG: I retired when I was, I retired finally when I was sixty three. I first retired at sixty one when I left Canvey. And I only had been retired for about three months when my boss at Cambridge rang me up and said. ‘I am in trouble, can you help me?’ I said. ‘Well, help you in what sense?’ He said. ‘Can you come back and do a job looking after a subsidiary until I find a, a permanent managing director?’ So I did and I stayed two years.
SJ: [laugh] Why not?
AG: But it was a good period for me because I was drawing full pension and then I was drawing full salary so it made a nest egg for me when I did retire.
SJ: So it was worth it then?
AG: Yes; well I stayed in Shoeburyness just outside Southend until twelve years ago. But one of my daughters lived in West Row which is just to the West of Milden Hall and another one lived in Barton Mills.
SJ: I was going to ask why you moved up this way?
AG: Well my son was in Kent and the journey from Shoeburyness up to here was one hundred and ten miles. And when I got to eighty I decided that that was too far. So we moved up here to a place just the other side of Mildenhall, Brickcone Hall[?] and eh, it was too large but we loved it. And then Iris had trouble keeping her balance, damaged her hip. So I decided we had to be on the same floor so we moved here. Which was a retirement bungalow which suited us down to the ground.
SJ: And it is a lovely complex, it really is nice.
AG: It is, I sit here and we have mallard ducks and swans on the river and I watch them and they come and look at me and squawk.
SJ: [laugh] And you sit and look at them?
AG: I try, I do, if Iris was here with me I’d love it. But she is only two miles away.
SJ: That is not far. How long has she been in the care home?
AG: Since January, so eleven months. But she is happy there and she is safe. You see I had her home here at first after she came out of hospital eh, but I couldn’t look after her during the day and the night. And I was getting totally exhausted because every time she moved I woke up. So we decided that my savings would go to the wall and I would put her in the care home. And she is in a lovely little care home. She is well cared for and she is safe, so —.
SJ: Does she like it there?
AG: At first she missed us all because she saw the family every day. Well now I go in about five days out of the seven and the two girls go once. Because Rosalind is a practice nurse in Bury so ,
SJ: That is not far away?
AG: No. And she is married to a Canadian who eh and they go backwards and forwards. I think they have a permanent passage booked on aircraft [laugh]. And eh Jill has got four sons and five grandsons, my great grandsons, so we are largely together. And my son comes up —.
SJ: He is the link end.
AG: Yes. He comes up for a week about every six weeks, because he has retired now.
SJ: Has he got any family?
AG: No; he married a lady who was seven years older than him and it never happened, so —.
SJ: That is quite a big family you got then, grandkids and great grandkids.
AG: Yes, I am a very lucky man. Having survived the war I look round and think, ‘This family wouldn’t have survived if I had bought it.’
SJ: I know, yeah.
AG: Well they might have done, Iris might have married someone else, but.
SJ: It would have been different though.
AG: They wouldn’t have had my genes.
SJ: No exactly [laugh]
AG: I’ll heat the —.
SJ: I shall put this on pause shall I?
AG: Since I retired, lived in Shoeburyness, Mildenhall and here there has been a resurgent of interest in 617. And also strangely in Pye Cambridge. And I have been recruited, to say to do this kind of interview for Pye Cambridge. Because they are making a record of the activities of Pye in Cambridge, because it has been there ever since it was formed.
SJ: So they are getting a history together of that part of Pye?
AG: There is a historical museum which is bringing all these records together. So they are doing what you are doing and making recordings and eh —.
SJ: It is great it needs doing. I mean how do you feel about the project? How do you feel about the Bomber Command Archive project?
AG: Lets say this. After I have had a session like this or with John Nichol . Or with other things the squadron seems to send to me. Eh, like the Cambridge stamp centre and signing things happened. Undoubtedly I have a disturbed couple of nights. Because it has brought it all back. But then the family encourage me and I totally accept the fact, if people like me didn’t say what this was like. The written word is not necessarily understood. But I think if they hear peoples voice as you are doing now, it might stop wars happening. I thank my lucky stars, that my son didn’t ever have to go through the trauma of a six years war. It was, don’t get me wrong. I think it was necessary. Hitler wouldn’t have got stopped in any other way. And I think in a way Hitler getting stopped, Mussolini and Stalin also got stopped. Because the consequences of the nuclear bomb was so dreadful that it stopped. And I don’t think there would have been a nuclear bomb if it hadn’t have been for the war, ‘cause the money would not have been found.
SJ: Yeah.
AG: Do I sound too serious?
SJ: No. I completely agree with you. Lessons need to be learnt from the past, don’t they?
AG: I think those of us who went through it. Have kind of a duty to make sure these subsequent generations knew what it was like.
SJ: Do you feel this generation and future generations will understand how it was?
AG: It’s difficult to say. But John Nichol tells me his book had a huge print and he has sold a lot of copies. So that if it get put into houses and families and people must have been buying it to read at home. It didn’t all go to libraries.
SJ: No not at all.
AG: The younger people eh, might well have learnt from it. And the BBC have done a number of programmes about the Air Force and the war in general. The Navy, all those aspects have been fired[?] some of it must have sunk in.
SJ: Yes you would like to think so.
AG: Yeah. And I think we have a duty to make sure that it became available. But it is not something that I enjoy.
SJ: Yes I completely understand, yeah.
AG: Because, well my family were fortunate. My brother was in the Navy, he was on the Arctic Convoys on HMS London, and eh —.
SJ: What was your brothers’ name?
AG: Kenneth, Kenneth George. And he, he went in the Navy. Largely because of my father I think. My father was Thames Bargeman. There’s Thames barges on the wall.
SJ: Yeah, I noticed them when I came in, yeah.
AG: My father was a Freeman of the River Thames. And he was on Thames barges and then on Thames tugs.
SJ: Did your father have military background?
AG: No, in the First World War he was a barge captain. And he, he used to load ammunition at Woolwich Arsenal, and take it over to France to a place called St Valerie.
SJ: He had a very important job.
AG: He used to take it across the channel. Through all those minefields and what have you.
SJ: Very risky.
AG: Yes it was. And at the end of the war he was presented with the Maritime Medal.
SJ: Oh brilliant.
AG: But you know the chances that he took as a civilian. He should have got much more than that.
SJ: I know. What was you fathers name?
AG: George, George David. He lived until he was ninety four, the last six years with us at Shoebury.
SJ: You mentioned your brother. Did you have any more brothers or sisters?
AG: No just the brother. My mother had twins which were still born, my brother and I —. They really were, they were extremely poor in a sense. Because in the shipping slump of 1931, 32 the barges were laid up all over the East Coast. And he just got on care and maintenance pay which was hardly anything. And with that he was trying to run himself on the barge, tied up to a buoy and the family at home. So his savings gradually went. So he had to, he had a break down eventually about 1934. And he stayed on the water in a sense because he became the hand in an oyster dredger on the river Roch at Rochford. And he did that eh, about eight months in the year. Then he was unemployed for the rest of the year. So he dispersed his savings looking after his family really. So I did have a very big moral obligation to my parents who were the salt of the earth.
SJ: Yes they sound like they were, which was great. I think that generation they were, weren’t they?
AG: They were family minded.
SJ: They were mm.
AG: They, [pause] I don’t think they bought themselves a Christmas present. Where my brother and I always had one.
SJ: Yeah, what were your family Christmases like?
AG: The family, my father had one, two, three. Three daughters, three sisters and two brothers. And one of the aunts was a school teacher and she took a fatherly interest. So silly isn’t it, she was an aunt, she couldn’t take a fatherly interest [laugh]. An aunt interest in my brother and I. And he won an open scholarship, a total scholarship to Clarks College when he was thirteen.
SJ: Oh brilliant.
AG: It was the only one on offer in the whole of the area, and he won it. He went to Clarks College. By the time I got to and I was four years younger. By the time I got to the age when I was sitting exams. They couldn’t afford for me to be another drain on the family finances. So eh, I went to work at Ecko.
SJ: How old were you when you started there?
AG: I was fourteen.
SJ: Fourteen mmm. How did you feel about working, starting work so young?
AG: It was the common thing.
SJ: It was mmm.
AG: I was on the, I was at the village and I stayed at the village. I was only at the municipal college for a short time and I was working and doing it evenings. But the village, I was almost. Hardly any of us did further education but my family believed in it. So I did further education and my brother was good example to me that he had won an open scholarship.
SJ: That was brilliant.
AG: But the village had a tradition of going to work at fourteen.
SJ: Yeah. But they did didn’t they? I mean they is eighteen now when they leave school. It is a big difference these days.
AG: But I would say this about the great working school; it was first class. And they had dedicated people. We had two Welshmen who were school masters there and they gave up their Saturdays for sport. They never let us go to a fixture without one of them being there. You know it was —. After school they’d, we would go into the playground and get a matting wicket and play cricket. And they always did it in a —. I look at teachers these days and I think to myself. ‘You should have lived with those people, you would have learned an awful lot.’ They believed in the welfare of their students. Where as now they seem to want —. [Interruption]. ‘Come in.’ [shout]
SJ: Shall I put this on?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Syd Grimes
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGrimesS151121
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sue Johnstone
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:54:01 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Sydney Grimes grew up near Southend and joined the RAF as a wireless operator in 1940. He flew a total of 41 operations - 24 operations with 106 Squadron and 17 operations with 617 Squadron. He then served on 9 Squadron at RAF Bardney for 2 months and 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate for 3 months, where he assisted on the return of prisoners of war in Operation Dodge. After demobilisation he returned to his old company and retired as the managing director.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Rutland
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1943
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Richard James
106 Squadron
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crewing up
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Manchester
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Balderton
RAF Bardney
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Scampton
RAF Sturgate
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
Tirpitz
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/357/5770/LGrimesS1271597v1.1.pdf
f78de867933d06f442ab2845bafcbb34
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grimes, Syd
Syd Grimes
S V Grimes
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Sydney Grimes (173865, 1271597 Royal Air Force) a photograph, and his logbook. After training as a wireless operator/ air gunner he completed a tour on 106 Squadron at RAF Syerston. After a period as an instructor he joined 617 Squadron for his second tour where he took part in the attacks on the Tirpitz.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Grimes and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Grimes, SV
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sydney Grimes' observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LGrimesS1271597v1
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Air Force observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Sydney Grimes, wireless operator, covering the period from 2 July 1942 to 22 August 1945. Detailing training, operations flown, instructional duties and post war flying. He was stationed at RAF Evanton, RAF Madley, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Wigsley, RAF Syerston, RAF Balderton, RAF Scampton, RAF Winthorpe, RAF Woodhall Spa, RAF Bardney and RAF Sturgate. Aircraft flown in were Dominie, Proctor, Botha, Wellington, Anson, Manchester, Halifax and Lancaster. He flew a total of 41 operations, 24 night operations with 106 squadron and 15 daylight and 2 night operations with 617 squadron. Targets were, Kiel, Frankfurt, Spezia, Pilsen, Stettin, Duisburg, Dortmund, Dusseldorf, Essen, Wuppertal, Bochum, Gelsenkirchen, Cologne, Turin, Hamburg, Berlin, Tromso, Urft Dam, Ijmuiden, Politz, Rotterdam, Oslo Fjord, Emden, Koln, Poortershaven, Viesleble [Bielefeld] viaduct and Ladbergen. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Stephens and Flight Lieutenant Gumbley.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Scotland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Czech Republic--Plzeň
England--Herefordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bielefeld
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Emden (Lower Saxony)
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Ladbergen
Germany--Wuppertal
Italy--La Spezia
Italy--Turin
Netherlands--Ijmuiden
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Norway--Tromsø
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Germany--Düsseldorf
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Urft Dam
Atlantic Ocean--Oslofjorden
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1943-04-04
1943-04-05
1943-04-10
1943-04-11
1943-04-13
1943-04-14
1943-04-16
1943-04-17
1943-04-18
1943-04-19
1943-04-20
1943-04-21
1943-05-12
1943-05-13
1943-05-14
1943-05-23
1943-05-24
1943-05-25
1943-05-26
1943-05-27
1943-05-28
1943-05-29
1943-05-30
1943-06-11
1943-06-12
1943-06-13
1943-06-24
1943-06-25
1943-06-26
1943-06-28
1943-06-29
1943-07-03
1943-07-04
1943-07-08
1943-07-09
1943-07-12
1943-07-13
1943-07-24
1943-07-25
1943-07-26
1943-07-27
1943-07-28
1943-07-29
1943-07-30
1943-08-23
1943-08-24
1944-10-29
1944-11-12
1944-12-08
1944-12-11
1944-12-15
1944-12-21
1944-12-22
1944-12-29
1944-12-30
1944-12-31
1945-01-01
1945-02-03
1945-02-06
1945-02-08
1945-02-14
1945-02-22
1945-02-24
1945-03-13
1945-03-14
1945-05-12
1945-06-25
1945-07-09
1945-08-07
1945-08-11
1945-08-20
1945-08-22
106 Squadron
14 OTU
1654 HCU
1661 HCU
1668 HCU
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Botha
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Manchester
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Proctor
RAF Balderton
RAF Bardney
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Evanton
RAF Madley
RAF Scampton
RAF Sturgate
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Targets and A&AEE Boscombe Down
Description
An account of the resource
Left page title 'Targets'
Top left - a note 'got to here'. Top right - an aerial oblique view of a city-scape with some large buildings and some damage visible. Captioned 'Essen' on the reverse 'Essen'.
Middle - an aerial oblique view of a town with open farmland beyond. Bottom right an aircraft propeller. Captioned 'Aachen'. On the reverse 'Aachen'.
Bottom - an aerial oblique view of a city with a large church centre left and large buildings in the centre. Captioned 'Antwerp'.
Right page title 'A&AEE Boscombe Down'.
Top left - head and shoulders view of two aircrew wearing battledress and side caps. Stephen Dawson is on the left. In the background part of an aircraft. Captioned 'E/O Paddy Riley'. Top right - head and shoulders view of two aircrew, one wearing battledress and the other a flying jacket. Stephen Dawson is on the right. In the background two men and part of an aircraft. Captioned 'Cliff Whatmore (bomb aimer)'. On the reverse a sketch map of location of the Savoy Hotel.
Centre - full length view of four aircrew in battledress or flying suits, all wearing side caps standing in front of an aircraft. Captioned 'Before dropping the first live "Tallboy large" - 22000 lbs'.
Bottom left - two aircrew viewed through the side cockpit window of a Lancaster. Below the cockpit a row of bomb symbols. Captioned 'Pilot Shaw, engineer Barrowman'. Bottom right - head and shoulders image of Stephen Dawson in shirt and tie. Captioned 'I.F.F. Photo for forged identity card for escape purposes'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Left page a note and three b/w photographs oriented with tops towards centre of page. Right page five b/w photographs. All mounted on two album pages
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PDawsonSR16010390, PDawsonSR16010391, PDawsonSR16010392, PDawsonSR16010393, PDawsonSR16010394, PDawsonSR16010395, PDawsonSR16010396, PDawsonSR16010397, PDawsonSR16010398, PDawsonSR16010399, PDawsonSR16010400, PDawsonSR16010401
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Essen
Germany--Aachen
Belgium
Belgium--Antwerp
Great Britain
England--Wiltshire
England--Salisbury
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-03
aerial photograph
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Cook’s tour
evading
flight engineer
Grand Slam
Lancaster
pilot
RAF Boscombe Down
Tallboy
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Chatterton, John. 44 Squadron operations order book
Description
An account of the resource
Collection consists of 521 items which are mostly Operations orders, aircraft load and weight tables and bomb aimers briefings for 44 Squadron operations between January 1944 and April 1945. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by M J Chatterton and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />This collection also contains items concerning Dewhurst Graaf and his crew, and Donald Neil McKechnie and his crew. Additional information on <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/109020/">Dewhurst Graaf</a> and <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/115642/">Donald Neil McKechnie</a> is available via the IBCC Losses Database.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Chatterton, J
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Underlined] CAEN [/underlined]
DATE 12-6-44 Colour Film. T & V.
A.L.B.GYXQSVO. H MJCTZ LJZYXQS VO T
[Table of bomb load]
[Boxed] 272/37 [/boxed]
T.V. 1580 1580 1600 1385
[Table of bomb weights]
[Table of preselection]
Relays 3 & 4 secs.
TIME OFF 2330 E.T.R. ZERO. 0215.
WINDOWS. NICKELS. NIL EFFORT. 100 L
TIME TO TARGET. 2 hours TARGET A.U.W. TARGET HEIGHT. 100
ROUTE – Base – A. Bridport – B 4940 x 0230W – C 4900 x 0110W
Δ – D 4907 x 0015 – C – B – A – Base.
METHOD. [Underlined] No Bombing after 0230 [/underlined]
3 A/C Flares across target. 15sec. int.
No further illumination unless called by [boxed] W [/boxed] or controller. [Underlined] Red/Green [/underlined]
2 R.S.F – Then assessed. H – 8?
[Underlined] Main Force marking [/underlined] R.S.F & Green TI’s.
Further marking by mixed TI’s. Red & Green.
W S & D – H-3 correct wind to set.
[Page break]
M.C ANM 65
LJZYXGSVO T
[Deleted] Mark [/deleted] A.P. is the meadow W of target.
Aim first bomb at markers.
Heading 090° T
Heights 7000 – 10000
A/S on Run - 175 Rectified.
Overshoot by 3 or 4 secs - ? Navigator time
Oboe starts H-5. Proximity markers. (due east of Δ marking due west).
H+2 – H+15 in three waves.
Right hand circuit.
Crater separation 10 yards. [Underlined] No line errors [/underlined]
617 dropping 12000 lb bombs. Safety ht. 4000 feet.
[Table of aircraft and waves]
Must not bomb before H+2 unless called in.
RT. WT. & VHF.
Jettison instructions.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bomb aimers briefing 12 June 1944 - Caen
Description
An account of the resource
Shows several bomb loads with some crossed out. Details preselector settings and other information. Includes timings, route and marking method. On the reverse bombing instructions, oboe marking and mentions 617 Squadron dropping 12000 pound bombs. At the bottom lists aircraft letters with heights and allocates aircraft to three waves.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-06-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two sides front form document partially filled in on the reverse handwritten
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SChattertonJ159568v10632, SChattertonJ159568v10633
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
France--Caen
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-12
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
617 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
briefing
Master Bomber
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oboe
Tallboy
target indicator
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Twells, Ernie. Album
Description
An account of the resource
A scrapbook containing photographs and documents of Ernie Twells' wartime and post-war service including squadron reunions. The photographs and documents are contained in wallets in a scrapbook. The wallet page has been scanned and then the individual items rescanned. The scans have been grouped together.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Twells, E
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Munich and of the Tirpitz
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-04-24
1944-04-25
1944-11-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two b/w photographs from a scrapbook
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PTwellsE15070024, PTwellsE15070025, PTwellsE15070026
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Wehrmacht. Kriegsmarine
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Norway
Germany--Munich
Norway--Tromsø
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-04-24
1944-04-25
1944-11-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
A vertical target photograph of Munich being bombed. Much of the detail is obscured by anti-aircraft fire. Captioned '66 WS. 24/25.4.44 // NT8” 18500 [arrow] 026 0145 Munich.RD. A 6RS. 6JCL 29 SECS F/O KNIGHTS A 617.'
A target photograph of the Tirpitz. Some detail is obscured by anti-aircraft fire. There is a cloud or a smoke screen close to but not obscuring the battleship. Captioned '1977 W.S.12.11.44 //8 13500 330° 0842 TIRPITZ. B1 1HC 12000 DT. C 31 SECS. F/L KNIGHTS. 0.617.'
617 Squadron
aerial photograph
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Lancaster
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Tallboy
target photograph
Tirpitz
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Twells, Ernie. Album
Description
An account of the resource
A scrapbook containing photographs and documents of Ernie Twells' wartime and post-war service including squadron reunions. The photographs and documents are contained in wallets in a scrapbook. The wallet page has been scanned and then the individual items rescanned. The scans have been grouped together.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Twells, E
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Flight Lieutenant Bob Knights
[italics] Pilot who bombed the Tirpitz three times and became a training captain with British Airways [/italics]
[photograph]
Knights (third from left) with his crew from 619 Squadron at Woodhall Spa on December 20 1943, just before taking off for a raid on Frankfurt
FLIGHT LIEUTENANT BOB KNIGHTS, who has died aged 83, flew his Lancaster bomber of No 617 Squadron on the three major attacks against the [italic] Tirpitz [/italic] that culminated, on November 12 1944, in the sinking of the powerful German battleship which had dominated British and American naval strategy in the European theatre.
With a firm foothold on the European continent, the Allies were anxious to deploy their naval forces to other theatres, but the threat posed by the [italic] Tirpitz [/italic] prevented this. Churchill pressed incessantly for the destruction of the “beast”, as he called her. Bomber Command and the Royal Navy had mounted many attacks against the battleship, and some damage had been inflicted; but the ship was still capable of making dangerous forays against the convoys to Russia.
In September 1944 Lancaster bombers of Nos 9 and 617 Squadrons were sent to attack the battleship with the 12,000-lb Tallboy bomb and mines. [italic] Tirpitz [/italic] was moored in Alten Fjord in the extreme north of Norway, beyond the range of the Lancasters operating from Scotland, so the force flew to Yagodnik, near Archangel, on September 11.
Knights and his crew were were [sic] accommodated on a houseboat, where bedbugs were their main companions. Four days later, Wing Commander Willie Tait, the CO of No 617, led the force to attack the battleship, but their efforts were thwarted by a dense smokescreen. Knights lost an engine over the target and returned to Yagodnik with his bomb still on board.
The Germans moved [italic] Tirpitz [/italic] south to Tromso, which put her just within range of the airfields in northern Scotland, from where another attack was mounted on October 29. The bombers faced heavy anti-aircraft fire, but Knights was able to drop his bomb, which landed very close and rocked the battleship. He remained circling the target as other bombs fell around the ship. Reconnaissance photographs suggested that the battleship remained intact, but, unknown to the Allies, she had sustained sufficient damage to render her no longer a threat.
On November 12 the bomber force carried out their third attack, this time in perfect weather.
Knights dropped his Tallboy, which was “a very near miss”, then descended to low level and flew around the ship, which he saw roll over on to her side after three direct hits. Short of fuel, Knights landed at a small fighter airfield at Peterhead. It was his last bombing operation of the war.
The crews of Nos 9 and 617 received a number of decorations, with Knights being awarded the DSO.
The son of a carpenter, Robert Edgar Knights was born on January 18 1921 at Fulham, London. He attended Fulham School for Boys, where he excelled at football. He played for the London Schoolboys’ XI that won the Schoolboys’ cup at Stamford Bridge, Chelsea, in 1935. He volunteered for service as a pilot with the RAF and was called up in March 1941.
Knights was trained in America under the “Arnold Scheme”. When flying over Florida, his instructor managed to get them lost and Knights was forced to bale out – a farmer thought he was a German.
After returning to England to complete his training, he was forced to bale out again, badly injuring his hand, when his aircraft crashed through the roof of a barn. He was commissioned six months later.
In June 1943 Knights joined No 619 Squadron flying the Lancaster. Soon afterwards the Battle of Berlin began, and Knights made eight attacks against the “Big City” – Bomber Command’s losses were particularly high. On another occasion he was en route to bomb Hamburg when one of his engines failed shortly after reaching the Dutch coast, and he would have been justified in turning back; but he pressed on and bombed the target successfully. Within six months he had completed his tour of 30 operations and was awarded the DFC.
He and his crew were due for a six-month rest, but decided that they wanted to “do something more challenging”. They volunteered for service with No 617 (Dam Busters) Squadron, and, after an interview with Leonard Cheshire, No 617’s CO, they were taken on.
Cheshire had developed low-level target-marking techniques with No 617 and, with the arrival of Barnes Wallis’s new Tallboy bomb, the squadron specialised in attacking pinpoint targets such as concrete U-boat and E-boat shelters, aero-engines works and the V1 flying bomb sites.
During the lead-up to the Normandy invasion, Knights bombed tunnels, rail marshalling yards and bridges to block German reinforcement routes to the invasion area. The Tallboys, dropped with great accuracy on the target markers by Cheshire and his fellow marker-crews, caused devastating damage. Once the Allies were firmly established in north-west Europe, No 617 turned its attention to the [italic] Tirpitz [/italic].
After flying 67 bombing operations, Knights was rested, and in June 1945 he was seconded to BOAC to fly converted Lancasters on routes to the Middle East and Australia, which the airline was re-establishing.
Knights left the RAF at the end of 1946 to join BOAC, and over the next few years he flew the Argonaut and the Boeing Stratocruiser, the latter on the North Atlantic route. After a spell on the Britannia, Knights converted to jets; he flew the inaugural VC 10 flight to Montreal in 1966. Later he flew the Boeing 747 and was one of the fleet’s training captains. He retired from British Airways in 1976.
A very modest man, Knights gave strong support to RAF charities. He was president of the Guildford branch of the RAFA and a long-standing member of the Aircrew Association. He developed a keen interest in bell-ringing and became captain of the bell tower at St Peter and St Paul at Albury, near Guildford. A good golfer and tennis player, he was also a lifelong supporter of Fulham FC.
Bob Knights died on December 4. In 1947 he married a serving WAAF, Helen Maloney, who survived him with their two sons and a daughter.
[page break]
[previous page repeated as entry in scrapbook]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bob Knights' Obituary
Description
An account of the resource
The obituary of Flight Lieutenant Bob Knights. It details his operations on the Tirpitz, his early life, his training in Florida, his time with 617 Squadron and his role with BOAC after the war until his retirement in 1976.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
A newspaper cutting from a scrapbook.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PTwellsE15070082, PTwellsE15070083
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Norway
Russia (Federation)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Steve Baldwin
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Service Order
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
pilot
submarine
Tallboy
Tirpitz
V-1
V-weapon
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Twells, Ernie. Album
Description
An account of the resource
A scrapbook containing photographs and documents of Ernie Twells' wartime and post-war service including squadron reunions. The photographs and documents are contained in wallets in a scrapbook. The wallet page has been scanned and then the individual items rescanned. The scans have been grouped together.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Twells, E
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted] Long Eaton Advertiser [underlined] 10/11/77 [/underlined] [/inserted] 13
Visitors from famous Dambusters’ squadron
A Long Eaton man will be among a group of wartime fliers from 617 Squadron – The Dambusters – who are due to visit Matlock on Saturday, the 33rd anniversary of their successful attack on the German battleship Tirpitz which eliminated a major threat to the Russian convoys.
He is Mr. Ernie Twells D.F.C., of 2 Abbot Street, Long Eaton, who was a flight engineer with 617 Squadron and took part in all three strikes against the Tirpitz.
Members of the 617 Squadron Association are visiting the county at the invitation of Coun. Norman Wilson, chairman of he [sic] county council and himself a former R.A.F. jet fighter pilot.
LEGENDARY
Said Coun. Wilson: “I am delighted that the association was able to accept my invitation. It is appropriate that links should be forged between us because the squadron used the Derwent Dams during training for the legendary raid on the Rhur dams and of course Rolls-Royce engines powered their Lancasters.
There are already links between the present 617 Squadron and our social services department. Groups of problem youngsters have visited the squadron at R.A.F. Scampton in Lincolnshire. The visits have been beneficial and a regular programme has been arranged.”
Membership of the 617 Squadron Association is confined to aircrew who flew operationally with the squadron between its foundation in early 1943 and the end of the war in May 1945. There are 260 members scattered across the world.
The squadron wrote itself into aviation history on the night of May 16, 1943 with the Dambusters raid, using the bouncing bomb invented by Barnes Wallis who spent part of his early life at Ripley.
The Tirpitz operation began 14 months later, again using a Barnes Wallis bomb – the 12,000 lb Tallboy.
The 43,000 ton battleship, sister to the Bismarck, was lying in a Norwegian fiord from where it threatened the Russian convoys. This meant that British battleships had always to be hovering in the background in case the Tirpitz came out. not for nothing was she nicknamed the “Big Bad Wolf” by escort commanders.
The Royal Navy attacked with midget submarines and although two huge mines were exploded under the Tirpitz she did not sink.
SMOKE SCREEN
Then on September 15 617 Squadron staged their first raid. First they flew to Russia to get within range of their quarry in Alten Fiord. But the attack was thwarted by a smoke screen that hid the battleship within minutes.
The squadron returned to England but when the Tirpitz moved south to Tromso a second attack was mounted. Extra fuel tanks and more powerful engines were fitted to the Lancaster bombers but this time cloud hampered the bombing.
It was to be third time lucky on November 12. With German fighters from a nearby station failing to intervene, no cloud and no smoke, 617 Squadron made a perfect attack. Three Tallboys smashed into the Tirpitz and she rolled over and out of the war.
Leading the 20 members of the association will be Group Capt. J.B. Tait, who led all three raids on the Tirpitz. Wtih [sic] him will be seven members of the attacking aircrews together with survivors from the Dambusters’ raid.
After a reception and buffet lunch at County Offices, the party will visit Chatsworth House at the invitation of the Duke of Devonshire.
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Visitors from famous Dambusters' squadron
Description
An account of the resource
A newspaper cutting announcing that Ernie Twells and the 617 squadron association will attend a presentation at Matlock. It describes the attempts made to sink the Tirpitz. Handwritten at the top is 'Long Eaton Advertiser 10/11/77'.
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Long Eaton Advertiser
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1977-11-10
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One newspaper cutting from a scrapbook.
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eng
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Text
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PTwellsE15070111, PTwellsE15070112
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
England--Matlock
England--Derbyshire
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Steve Baldwin
617 Squadron
bombing
bouncing bomb
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
RAF Scampton
Tallboy
Tirpitz
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8745/AGoodmanLS150808.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Goodman, Benny
Lawrence Seymour Goodman
L S Goodman
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodman, LS
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-04-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Laurence Benny Goodman. The interview is taking place at Mr Goodman’s home in Bracknell on the 8th of August 2015. This particular interview focusses on Mr Goodman’s time as a pilot in 617 squadron during the latter stages of World War 2.
LBSG: The Grand Slam bomb was designed by Sir Barnes Wallis and was twenty one feet long and weighed twenty two thousand pounds. It was the largest bomb ever produced in the war. We were the only squadron to carry it. On the Arnsberg Viaduct raid which was a daylight raid I had a twenty two thousand pound bomb on board and we made our usual bombing run but once the bomb was released I felt the aircraft lift perceptibly. I imagine a hundred, a hundred or two hundred feet and certainly the flight engineer heard the, heard the clinking of the release chains. The bomb was so heavy that it required those chains. To carry the twenty two thousand pound bomb of course the Lancaster had to be modified. We had to have a strengthened undercarriage. The bomb doors were certainly taken away and we had a different attachment for the bomb. The twenty two thousand pound bomb. It was, on take-off it was a little longer run but once we did take off the climb was quite steady and once to height we cruised the normal way. The importance of the target fitted in with the general strategy of the time to cut all German lines of communication we could so they couldn’t bring up troops, ammunition, food and so on and certainly the Arnsberg Viaduct was one of the important viaducts that had to be destroyed. On this occasion when we released the bomb we certainly didn’t have to say, ‘bomb gone,’ because as it fell off the aircraft we went up quite, well a hundred to two hundred feet and it was extraordinary. I never expected quite that reaction. Only two twenty thousand pound bombs were dropped on that occasion and it was quite obvious after the explosion that the viaduct was either totally destroyed or very badly damaged and in any case would take some work to repair. In January 1945 we were briefed to attack the U-boat pens at Bergen in Norway. We made the attack but there were, and we had a fighter escort as well but unfortunately the fighter escort went down to silence the gun emplacements, the German gun emplacements. Just after they did this a number of Focke Wulf 190s and ME109s appeared and started to cause havoc amongst our aeroplanes. Johnny, Johnny Pryor was shot down and I believe somebody else and I remember that Tony Iveson was attacked by a fighter and badly damaged but he got his aeroplane back safely to the UK and got a DFC for his efforts. December 1944 we attacked the U-boat pens on the Dutch islands just off the Dutch coast. They had been attacked a number of times before but the pen, the roof of the pens had not been penetrated and therefore most of the damage was done just outside. However, one or two of our Tallboy bombs did penetrate the roof and caused havoc within the pen area itself and did quite a lot of damage generally. The last operational trip the squadron did during the war was on April the 25th 1945 against the Eagle’s Nest in Berchtesgaden which was very close to the Austrian border. I remember that we hit the Waffen SS barracks, the special troops guarding Hitler and the Gestapo headquarters so the raid was probably worthwhile even though it was right at the end of the war. There had been some attempts to sink the Tirpitz by both the Royal Navy and the US navy but the bombs they were carrying did not have very much effect as they were too small. After that it was decided that 617 squadron would be used to actually get rid of the Tirpitz which was a great menace to shipping in the Atlantic. There were three attempts made to sink the Tirpitz. The first one was made from the UK was a one way trip to Yagodnik and from there from Yagodnik the aircraft then took off to attack the Tirpitz. This trip unfortunately had no success so different methods were thought of to approach the vexed question of getting rid of the Tirpitz. The second and third raids were both carried out from advanced base in Lossiemouth Scotland and for this on occasion, on this occasion we had enough fuel, we had extra tanks to get us there and back without refuelling. A lot of equipment was taken out of the aircraft to make way for the tanks and to ensure that the load wasn’t too heavy once we got out bomb on board. A plan was devised in which there would be two large extra tanks inside the fuselage and to do this a number of things had to be stripped from the aircraft. The armour plating behind the pilot’s back, I regret to say, was removed and everything else we didn’t appear to need was taken out. We had a rear gun, a rear gunner and a turret but we didn’t have a mid-upper gunner. And the tanks when we, I beg your pardon, when we got in the aircraft to start the operation there was an awful smell of petrol throughout and it was clearly dangerous if even a spark was to, would have blown up each aircraft. Our take off was at midnight from Lossiemouth and if a film writer had written the script it couldn’t have been better. There was low cloud and a lot of rain and there we were, our aircraft lined up around the perimeter track waiting for take-off and we could hardly see each other really for the bad weather. However, all went well. We all went off and set course for landfall on the Norwegian coast. We flew over the sea for some hours and our only navigation was an attempt to produce winds on our own. No. Our only navigation aid was finding winds ourselves and any that might be broadcast by Bomber Command. However, at daybreak we all, however at daybreak we all coasted in at the agreed rendezvous and formed up in a gaggle to make the rest of the trip through Norway and on to the Tromso fjord. As we, as we went up the spine between Norway and Sweden we were we made our way towards the turning point for the actual bombing run. All this went very satisfactorily and we turned for the run in and as we neared the Tirpitz we could see the battleship but there was also cloud coming in and to add to our grief they’d put up a large smokescreen all around the, all around it. It was almost impossible to bomb accurately so the trip was aborted and we returned to base.
AP: Yeah.
LBSG: The whole trip took thirteen and a quarter hours and we heard, sorry, the whole trip took thirteen and a quarter hours and on the way back my wireless operator tuned into the news from the BBC and we heard that the Tirpitz had been bombed. We had a very, we had a bit of chuckle about that as we knew. The third trip was a repeat of the second trip but on this occasion the Tirpitz could be seen quite clearly and the ship was, the battleship was sunk. I’d like to say a little bit about the SABS. The bomb site that only 617 Squadron used. It was a very accurate bomb site but needed not only very accurate, accurate settings like the wind velocity at the height we were bombing from, the temperature and other, and other details. It also demanded a completely straight and level flight from the pilot otherwise the bomb aimer could not release the bomb with any confidence. The Lancaster, despite its size was a dream to fly and whatever the air ministry chose to hang on it afterwards it seemed to react very little. It was the most reliable aircraft. Many people said because it had inline engines we were more prone to engine loss because of the cooler that we carried and the inline engines of the Merlin, of the Merlin but that never seemed to affect anybody. The aircraft itself took a lot of punishment and we always had the utmost confidence in it. There is no sound in this world like Merlin engines after they’d been throttled back to reduce power whether it’s on the approach to land or at any other time and that applied to Merlin engines on whatever aircraft they were fitted be it the Lancaster or the Spitfire on which I did quite a, two hundred hours. Clearly like every other crew on operations we were damaged on occasion. We were damaged and one or two incidents I can remember. One was the bomb aimer was lying prone in the bomb aimers position and flak came through the aircraft and filled his flying, the heel of his flying boots, both of them, and part of his, and damaged, damaged part of his flying boots but never hit him, which was extraordinary. And the other great escape I can think of is the wireless operator. He happened to lean forward towards his radio as wireless operators did with his hand on one ear to hear a station he was trying to tune in better when a shell came through one side of the fuselage and exited out of the other. When we landed we sat the wireless operator in his normal position, that is not leaning forward, and measured, took various measurements and realised that if he hadn’t leant forward at that moment the shell would have gone straight through his head. Looking back it seems to me that the worst moments, well they weren’t bad moments but perhaps the most edgy moments were when we waiting on wet grass perhaps at midnight for a very pistol to go off. If it was a green one it meant we were going on ops. If it was a red one it meant ops were cancelled and we sat there chatting away as normally as we could but as soon as we got the green very and got in to the cockpit everything settled down as normal. It was much too much to think about once I got strapped in to think about anything else but the operation. One thing I would like to emphasise very strongly. Without the ground crew there would be no air crew and we always maintained a very friendly relationship. They were there day and night whenever we took off and whenever we came back. Come winter, summer. They were there in the pouring rain and in the snow waiting for us and to service the aircraft as soon as possible once we’d done what we had to do. I have nothing but the highest and fullest praise for the ground crew and I’ve never understood why they never to have been acknowledged in any way and I still think about them as unsung heroes. I’m often asked what it was like flying on operations during the war and I can truly say that even though there might have been very slight tension before we actually knew we were going to get in to the aircraft and go off once we did that once I was strapped in to the cockpit all my tension went and I was concentrating on the job and I feel sure my crew felt the same way.
AP: And -
LBSG: And as we were flying we had to focus on what we were doing and although on occasions we were attacked and there was anti-aircraft fire it was absolutely imperative that we tried to dismiss that and not lose control of what we were supposed to be doing. It was important that our crew worked as a crew and not individually and it was, as far as I know, the rule of Bomber Command that once you got a crew you stayed with it because you got to know each other. You got to trust each other and everybody knew what to do. Everybody knew their job. There was the rear gunner, the mid upper gunner, the navigator, the wireless operator, the bomb aimer and me the pilot and we all had our own work to do even if, even though we had to cooperate with all of them or some of them depending on the circumstances. Attention on the bombing run that team work was foremost. The bomb aimer had to set the correct height, wind speed and airspeed on his bomb sight which he got from the navigator and I would set a course given to me by the, by the navigator in the first place and corrected by the bomb aimer on the run in. Now the corrections in the Lancaster of 617 squadron were made with a little dial on the combing of the instrument panel and it made a one degree alteration look rather large so it is no exaggeration to say that the bomb aimer could also on his bomb sight of one degree correction and it would show up quite large on the indicator that I had which meant a touch on the pedal and the aileron or both as the case may be. This proved a very satisfactory method of correcting very small amounts.
AP: That’s good. So there’s some really good teamwork there between -
LBSG: I was going to say, the, I think a word, can I say, I think, a word about the bomb sight itself may be appropriate. I believe it was the only type of its use in the air force and the bomb aimer and the navigator and the pilot had to work closely together. We relied on the navigator to give the correct height in barometric pressure. The correct wind speed and the correct temperature and one or two other things which the bomb aimer then fed into his bomb sight and when I was given a course to fly it had to be absolutely accurate and the height had to be absolutely accurate. I think we were allowed plus or minus fifty feet and a few knots in airspeed if that but it had to be very accurate. Now, the corrections on the run in were made by the bomb aimer on a dial which showed with a little arrow which went left or right and had degrees marked off on it and the bomb aimer would alter his run in with his bomb site itself and that would show on my dial and one degree ever, I beg your pardon, a one degree error showed up quite largely on my dial so I made the correction in the way that was indicated. The Tallboy and the Grand Slam bombs were a huge asset because it enabled us to hit more accurately the targets and to destroy ones we probably could never have destroyed before.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Benny Goodman. One
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodmanLS150808
PGoodmanLS1501
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Norway
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Norway--Bergen
Norway--Tromsø
Russia (Federation)--Arkhangelʹskai︠a︡ oblastʹ
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Benny Goodman discusses some of his operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron. He discusses attacking the Tirpitz and the use of Tallboy and Grand Slam bombs which required the Lancaster plane to be modified. On a flight against the U-boat pens in Bergen the fighter escort left the squadron to attack the gun emplacements on the ground leaving them exposed to the German fighters which appeared suddenly and attacked them. His last operational flight with the squadron was an operation to Berchtesgaden.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:18:03 audio recording
617 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Grand Slam
ground crew
Lancaster
navigator
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
pilot
submarine
Tallboy
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8746/PGoodmanLS1501.2.jpg
4d6c119b0afafd239cd1395cc73a9296
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/8746/AGoodmanLS160407.1.mp3
7215a8a462ca34501fb64632597de4b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Goodman, Benny
Lawrence Seymour Goodman
L S Goodman
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Goodman, LS
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today we’re in Bracknell talking to Benny Goodman about his experiences in the RAF and today is the 7th of April 2016 and Benny is going to start off with his earliest recollections going through to what he did after the war. So what do you remember first Benny?
LBSG: When the war broke out you mean?
CB: No. When you, your earliest recollections of life.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: In the family.
LBSG: We lived, we’re Londoners from a long way back and I remember I was born in Maida Vale and lived there for the first five or six years of my life and then we moved to Hampstead and we lived there and we were still there when the war broke out.
CB: Keep going.
LBSG: Yes. I was -
CB: So you went to school locally.
LBSG: No.
CB: Right.
LBSG: I was a boarder. I was away at school.
CB: Where were you at school?
LBSG: In Herne Bay.
CB: In Herne Bay.
LBSG: Herne Bay College. Yes.
CB: Right. And if you just keep going on what you -
LBSG: Well, I left, yes, because my father -
CB: So -
LBSG: Had, I’ll keep going, an interest in an electrical engineering factory in Birmingham. It was considered that I should go up there and study at night and work during the day in the factory. I did this and found it fairly hard going doing, doing both things because there was no, very little free time. However, in September 1939 we all listened to a broadcast by the prime minister who told us that we were at war with Germany and so that of course made quite a difference to me. I decided to contact my parents. I was about a hundred miles from London at the time and discuss with my father what I wanted to do. I was only eight/nineteen, eighteen or nineteen at the time. It was agreed that I would go home and I decided I wanted to join the RAF. My father backed me up. My mother was horrified but in the end I went to a recruiting office at, in Brent, North London. It was the nearest RAF one and did all the necessary things to make sure that I would get in, get in to the RAF. Of course I said I wanted to be a pilot. And the officer, it was a flying officer who interviewed me raised his eyebrows. I didn’t really realise what that meant and I noticed he’d put down on the form that he was filling in for me ACH ACH/GD and I thought that meant that I was definitely going to start training as a pilot immediately. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. In due course I went for a general medical and when I passed that I was sent across to the RAF section to have an air crew medical which I passed and then we were, we had to be attested as we were volunteers and so we all had a little ceremony within the medical centre. About twenty of us took the oath of allegiance to the king and the crown and all the rest of it. I was then sent on leave for a little while, a few weeks, and got my call up papers and I thought this is it. I’m going to be a pilot in two weeks. Didn’t quite turn out like that. I went to Cardington, kitted out and we did a bit of marching which wasn’t really on the agenda. We didn’t realise we were there until we were posted and eventually, after about ten days we packed our kit bags and were marched off to a railway station and of course nobody had any idea where we were going but we ended up in Bridgenorth and we, and it was snowy, it was snowing, I beg your pardon and the roads were quite icy but we had to march up the hill from the station at Bridgnorth to Bridgenorth RAF camp and it was quite slippery but we all got to the top and we were all very wet behind the ears there’s no doubt about it. We had a flight sergeant barking at us and we ended up in a hut, about twenty of us, well maybe fifteen in a hut and there we went through six weeks of square bashing of every sort, type and description you could imagine. There was a corporal to every hut and he had a bunk to himself in the hut which was, part of our duty was to sweep his bunk out every day and make the bed and we did that of course. We had to. And we had various other delightful jobs as you can imagine. I can remember spending I think a week in the cookhouse peeling potatoes which didn’t impress me very much with, as you can imagine. However, we eventually got a posting, I and another chap and we were told we would be going to RAF Abingdon and we knew that was a straight through course on Whitleys. By straight through I mean you did ground school, you flew a Tiger Moth, and then an Anson and then a Whitley. So we had every hope that we were going to be on that course. There was no reason to suppose that we wouldn’t be. Things turned out rather differently. Instead of that we were sent to a dugout on the airfield and there was a nissen hut there with six beds in it. No, no sheets, no pillow cases, of course. Just blankets that didn’t smell very good and the latrine, latrines had to be dug out and there we lived for about six months and all thoughts of being pilots, we had become ground gunners. We didn’t know it until, until we had to learn all about ground gunning and how to take to pieces a cow gun, that’s a Coventry ordinance work gun, a Lewis watercool gun and so on and we did that pretty well because we were, we had to do it day and night we would, and the only part I remember, of course we had to name every part we, we’d handled but the only part name I can remember was the rear sear retainer keeper and I cannot tell you why I remember it nor do I really remember where it fitted. However, we were there for about six months and we were both quite fed up with it because it was four hours on and two hours off during the day and at night we had to patrol around the airfield every night and challenge anybody who was walking there. Well, we had to challenge, ask for the password and if we didn’t get the right answer we were supposed to arrest them. However, there was no option, we did have to challenge them because the station duty officer and the warrant officer and the orderly officer all at various times would come around with a couple of NCOs and if we didn’t challenge them we were in trouble and we challenged many more airmen and it was winter and they were trying to find their way in the blackout to a Whitley they were working on with their tool bag in one hand and to have some idiot airman like me challenge them saying, ‘Stop. Who goes there,’ And believe me we used to get some fruity juicy answers. We never got a password from them [laughs]. It would be more, would have been more than our life was worth if we’d really tried to try to stop them. I mean it would have been ridiculous. We could, we could see that. And the fear at the time when I was a ground gunner was that the Germans would invade by air at dawn. So at dawn we had to march around the perimeter track with, we always had, by the way one bullet up the spout. That’s one loaded in the, ready for firing but the safety catch was on and we marched around the perimeter track and for some reason we had to wear oxygen, I beg your pardon, gas masks. I don’t know why because if the Germans were dropping paratroops I can’t believe they were going to drop with gasmasks on. However, that was the order so that was it. Our food was brought out in hay boxes. Breakfast, lunch and a sort of tea, dinner and of course as warm as the hay boxes, hay boxes may have been by the time they got around to us on the other side of the airfield in a dugout it wasn’t very warm. But it is extraordinary, you get used to everything and after about three or four months this other chap and I had given up all hopes of becoming pilots or training and in our off duty by the way, we had a off duty half day and if we were lucky occasionally we’d get a pass in to the, go and walk into the local town, in Abingdon but if you could get past the SPs because you went to go, if you went to go out they had to inspect every inch of you and if they didn’t quite like the way your tie was tied or one button didn’t look properly shined then you were sent back and told to come back again so sometimes you never really got your half day off. I don’t know, we got used to it, it’s extraordinary and because we were very young I don’t think we took, I don’t think we got too, took too much umbridge about it and as, I think I’ve just said this other chap and I had given up any idea of being trained as pilots. We thought here we are and here we are going to stay but one day we were sent for and we wondered what we’d done but we were told we were going on a pilot’s course and we couldn’t believe it. It wasn’t at RAF Abingdon because the Whitley course that we saw was the last one that they, the straight through course was the last one and so we never had any hope of getting on that and we, I was sent to, this chap and I separated unfortunately. We’d become good friends by that time but we were separated and I went to a reception centre at Stratford on Avon. Now remember I’d been a ground gunner for six months and my uniform, to say the least, was tatty because we spent day and night in the, well, at night, walking around but days in the gun pit and sometimes we had, when we were off we, it wasn’t, we couldn’t get undressed, we slept in it. I mean everybody did and of course I looked really tatty and crumpled. There was no doubt about that. I walked in to the orderly room in the reception area at Stratford on Avon and somebody barked, ‘Airman you’re on a charge.’ And I looked around. I want to interrupt.
CB: Right.
LBSG: I want to interrupt.
CB: Oh you do. Right.
[machine pause]
LBSG: Am I? Are you ready? ‘Airman. You’re on a charge,’ and I looked around and there was nobody else, well there were people sitting there and working but and I thought, I think he means me. [laughs] So I got up to the desk and said, ‘Yes sergeant, reporting in.’ He said, ‘You’re on a charge airman’. And I said, well I thought it was me so I, ‘You are a disgrace to the service. Look at you.’ And I probably was because my uniform had been slept in and it was probably a bit muddy. I cleaned it as much as I could but you only had one uniform, two shirts, two pairs of socks and I think two pairs of underpants and that’s all we owned in life and no, certainly no other battle dress or cap and I tried to explain to him what I’d been and why I looked that way and he wasn’t in the least interested. He said, ‘You’re a disgrace to the service. You should have kept yourself in better condition.’ Something like that. In better condition. So I was, the next morning, I was, my feet hadn’t touched the ground there really. The next morning I was marched into the OCs office, he was a flying officer and he read the charge, he said, ‘What about this, Goodman?’ And I said, ‘Well sir what I’ve said is true. I’ve slept in the uniform in gun pits and all the rest of it and we don’t have another uniform to wear and that’s why it looks this way.’ He said, Well I do appreciate it but I’m afraid,’ he had to, obviously had to say this, ‘My sergeant is correct and you look very scruffy,’ and so on and so. I got seven days jankers but I wasn’t offered another uniform or another cap or anything so I still walked about. Anyhow, I was there for not very long fortunately. A week or ten days I think and I was posted to, to ITW at Cambridge. And this was really the beginning of the training for, to be a pilot and we had six weeks of intensive ground school and most of us passed out. One or two chaps failed and I felt jolly sorry for them because they had tried hard but I got through and by this time my friend, I think I’ve said this already, had separated. He’d gone somewhere else. I got through and really I’m afraid that’s what interested me most and I was sent to number 17 AFTS at Peterborough and did about forty eight or fifty hours flying on a Tiger Moth and when it was over I was sent for. I’m afraid I’ve always thought, the first thing that comes into my head, what have I done wrong because as an airmen there’s never any good news. If you are sent for there’s usually something wrong. And the flight commander who was a flight lieutenant said to me, ‘You’ve been posted to RAF Woodley,’ which was the Miles factory, the Miles, where they made the Magister, and all, the Martinet and all the rest of them and, ‘You’re going to be an instructor.’ And I thought I don’t want to be an instructor. I’ve only just learned to fly the Tiger Moth. So I went there and we flew Magisters and they of course had brakes and flaps which I’d never seen before in my life and I was supposed to be training as an instructor. Anyhow, I did my, I really didn’t want to be one but I was there and then when I finished there I was posted to, I was going sorry, I was going to Clyffe Pypard, I think it was, as a holding unit. Ok.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I went to Clyffe Pypard as a holding unit and from there we were posted to Canada and I was told I was going to, I think it was 33 SFTS at Carberry and I thought I was going to be instructor but I wasn’t. I was going to learn to fly twin engine aircraft. Ansons. And that for me, I’d only flown these very light aircraft and for me that was a real, absolutely really big step up and so I did the Anson course and night flying was included. The first time I’d ever done that and I must say I take my hat off to the instructor who was with me for the first night circuit because I was all over the sky. We weren’t taught instrument flying by the way, before, they, so I was looking at the instruments at night for the first time, the artificial horizon and all the rest of it never having really relied on them in my day training so for the first circuit I was all over the place, I really was, up and down and the chap just sat there. The instructor. He didn’t say a word and I thought this can’t be right but I managed a circuit of some sort and we came in on the approach and he gave me a couple of hints on the approach. Of course although I’d done quite a bit of flying on the Anson by this time in the day to do it first time at night first time you’d ever flown at night was quite different. Anyhow, I made some sort of a landing and he said, ‘Well yes, ok you’ll be on the, you’ll be flying tomorrow. Night. And if you improve a bit you can go solo,’ and the thought of that terrified me [laughs] I thought I’ve hardly had real control of the aircraft all the time and if the chap hadn’t, the instructor hadn’t been sitting next to me I think I might have given up but I knew he was there if I made any mistakes. Anyhow, we did a few circuits and bumps and he said, ‘You can go solo,’ and again the thought terrified me but he, he sent me solo and I think we did, I did one circuit and bump and came in and he said, ‘Ok Goodman. That’s fine. And you’ll be on the roster tomorrow night, on the duty, you’ll be flying tomorrow night,’ and you’ll do whatever else it was and that’s, ‘You’re well forward now on your completed training.’ And we had to do three cross countries as navigator because in those days when Hampdens were still flying and Wellingtons, I think Whitleys had stopped by then but Hampdens certainly were flying and Wellingtons were. The first fifteen trips when you were on an operational squadron was usually, not always, flown as a navigator, by the chap who was a pilot. I suppose they didn’t, in those days, have enough. I don’t know why but anyhow I think that was part of the pre-war influence. I don’t know. There were observers but I’m not sure in those days how fully trained as navigators they were. Please forgive me all you people who wear O’s because they were highly distinguished and my own bomb aimer was an observer and he used to put me in my place [laughs] that is when I got on the squadron, in 617, yeah. So I passed there and then I thought well I am on my way back now surely. Not a bit of it. I was sent to RAF Kingston, Ontario as an instructor but horrifyingly I was going to instruct acting leading naval airmen. Now, I didn’t have a clue about landing on, or jinking after take-off or dive bombing or any of the things they were being trained for so the flight commander was, they were all experienced chaps except me. I’d never been on ops and during the war that was really a black mark whether you could help it or not. If you hadn’t done an operational tour not even the students looked up to you really. However, there it was and we, one of the, we had a fleet air arm chap and one or two other seasoned pilots in the flight and of course the flight commander and he took me up and it was a Harvard by the way. An important point. It was Harvards. Now, I’d never flown an aircraft with a VP prop and a retractable undercarriage. The Anson was the nearest I ever got and we had to wind the undercarriage up so you didn’t wind it up unless you were doing a cross country so it was a whole new world to me and he took me up and he said, ‘Well you’re an instructor and that’s the end of it but you’re going to learn to fly this,’ and after about an hour and a half again he shook me to the core, he said, ‘Ok you can go solo.’ Do this, that and the other and, ‘I’ll be watching you.’ ‘Yes you will.’ And come in and we’ll have a talk. So I took this mighty beast off, this Harvard, which was a mighty beast to me. It was a beautiful aeroplane actually. I loved flying it when I got used to it. It was fully aerobatic which was wonderful and for me it had lots of ergs. Bags of power. And so I went solo and then he took me up a couple of times and said, ‘Right. You don’t know anything about naval training but you know about, you’re an instructor so I will show you you’re, the first lesson you’ll do and then you’ll go up and do it and then the second lesson, and so on.’ And so I progressed through the syllabus and by the time I left there I was teaching them about dive bombing and jinking after take-off. Everything you would get court martialled for in the RAF but of course it was the royal, it was the Fleet Air Arm and this is what they were being taught to do. And I had a thoroughly good time. I was a pilot officer. There was no room for me in the mess so I lived in digs and I bought a car. It was a, with a dickie seat. That is, it was a two seater but it had a flap you could open at the back and two people could sit inside, outside as it were but it was wonderful. I had a car of my own. I was only twenty one. I was living in digs. And I was a flying instructor in the air force. I thought I was dreaming actually. I did. Well I had a thoroughly good time of course there’s no doubt about that when I was doing it and we were then, myself and another few chaps who’d got no operational experience were posted back to the UK to go on ops. So we went back and we went to a holding unit in Bournemouth. Oh by the way on the way back, on my first trip back, twenty four hours out we were torpedoed. Fortunately, an American destroyer took most of the torpedo, it blew up with a lot of lives lost but we got damaged. We were going around in circ, the rudder was done. We had no rudder at all and other damage was done but when they had got it all fixed up we were going around in the Atlantic at that night in circles because there was no steering gear and we all thought he’s going to come back and finish us off, that U-boat but he must have run out of torpedoes. I can think of no other reason for him not sinking us. I really can’t. So we went back to Halifax, Nova Scotia and then we were put on a train which we stayed on for five days. Our food was supplied and it was just the ordinary compartment. When we all wanted to clean our teeth just the ordinary passenger way, we would go and have a pee or whatever, we would go to the lavatory or there was a wash basin so we took it in turns to clean our teeth and wash ourselves but nothing like a shower or anything like that and food was given to us and we went all the way from Halifax, Nova Scotia by train to New York. I think it took five days and there we embarked, [paused] I’ve left something out, did I say we were torpedoed?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And there we embarked on the Queen Mary and we were the only, there weren’t many of us, about a dozen I think, there was a, the OC troops was an American officer, a colonel and all the troops apart from us were Americans and so we were very much in the minority on a British ship and I can remember before we sailed the OC troops called us all together in one of the big halls that the Queen Mary had obviously and there were seats there and all of us, all the officers together and he said, ‘I want you to remember this. You’re officers and if anything happens, if we’re torpedoed you will be the last to leave.’ And the other few RAF chaps and myself looked at each other because we’d just been torpedoed [laughs] and we didn’t think much of that statement frankly but we got back safely and of course we had good food, being American and we were put through quite a rigorous, I remember when we arrived on board, a rigorous American medical. The fact that we’d got our RAF medicals didn’t mean a thing to them. We had a thorough, I don’t know whether it was army, yes American army medical I suppose and they passed us fit. I often wonder what they would have done if they hadn’t passed us fit. We were, by that time we were sailing, I mean, but anyhow they passed us fit and we got back safely to the UK. I hadn’t got, I omitted to say this before, but I hadn’t got any luggage of any sort. I just had my shaving kit and I hadn’t even got my logbooks or anything. They were all in my trunk which presumed were ruined and nobody knows what happened. They didn’t know whether they’d floated out or anything and so when I got there they asked me how many flying hours I’d got. I said well you’ll have to take my word for it but I can remember them roughly and I wrote them down in my new logbook and I went to, when we got back I went to Spitalgate, Grantham for what was called a UK, sorry -
CB: It’s ok.
LBSG: Can you switch off?
CB: Yeah.
[machine paused]
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Ok. So start again.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Or continue. Yeah. So you got back yeah. When you got back.
LBSG: When I got back we were sent eventually to RAF Spitalgate which was Grantham for an acclimatisation course which meant we had to learn to fly without any lights and without any help from anywhere. You couldn’t call up, apart from at night you had a system called darkie and if you really got lost at night then you called up darkie. Switch off.
[machine paused]
LBSG: And -
CB: No. No. No. No. So when you were lost you had to do a call sign and that said?
LBSG: Did I mention night flying or what?
CB: This is night flying isn’t it? Yes.
LBSG: Yes. Could I -
CB: So say it. Go on.
LBSG: Night flying of course was rather different in the UK because there were no lights, no aids. Scattered around the country there were, not very many, a few master beacons. They flashed red symbols, I beg your pardon, Morse code characters and if you were lucky, if you were lost at night, you might see one of these but there weren’t many in the whole country but you had to do this cross country at night in Oxfords with just a ground wireless op in the back in case you got lost. He would try to get a QDM to somewhere. And I always felt very sorry for these wireless men because they weren’t aircrew. They were ground crew and they must have hated it. Anyhow, most of us managed to do, get through this without any trouble and I was sent to, to Market, Market Harborough I think it was, Market Harborough to do a Wellington, Wellington OCU and across to and began my flying on Wellington 1Cs at Saltby which was the, which was the -
CB: The OTU.
LBSG: N. It was part of the [pause] satellite.
CB: Oh yes.
LBSG: Satellite for Market Harborough. Unfortunately I fell ill and I was sent to a hospital, RAF Wroughton, and didn’t get my full flying category back for some time. I lost my crew of course. They went on flying with somebody else and then when I did get a flying category I had to, I couldn’t go straight for training. The powers that be insisted I got some flying in so I was sent to an OTU to fly the Martinet which did dummy air attacks on, rather which did air, dummy air attacks on Wellingtons for the training, to train air gunners, would-be air gunners. I made a mess of that.
CB: That’s ok. That’s fine.
LBSG: To train would-be air gunners.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: In addition to that I did the drogue towing when they had live air to air firing which never made me very comfortable because they were all UT, Under Training that is and not qualified. Whilst there I met an observer who’d also been grounded and we struck up a great friendship and when the time came for us both to get our A1G1, that is the full flying category back we got it together fortunately and we asked if we could be posted together and for some, and it was granted which was quite unusual and then we were sent to, we were sent to an RAF station and pitched in amongst a lot of other air crew and there you walked around and spoke to people and believe it or not that’s how you chose your crew. True. From there we went to -
CB: So this was at the OTU.
LBSG: OTU yes. Did I say I’d been in hospital? I did, I think.
CB: You did.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And your OTU was Silverstone.
LBSG: Yes. That’s right. From there we went to OTU at Silverstone and thence to the Lanc Finishing School at Syerston. Syerston or Syston?
CB: Syerston.
LBSG: Syerston yeah. At the end of the course I was sent for by the flight commander and the whole crew said to me, ‘What the hell have you done now, Benny?’ And I said, ‘Well I can think of nothing,’ and they all laughed and said, ‘Oh yeah.’ Of course, they didn’t believe me, of course. Anyhow, I went in and I was horrified when I went in. There was the flight commander, wing commander flying and two or three other officers, squadron leaders and a wing, I think a wing commander and I thought I really am in trouble this time and I couldn’t think of anything I’d done, for a change, that merited this show of high, high class brass as it were. Anyhow, they asked me a few questions and I realised that this had, it couldn’t be to do with something I’d done wrong and then suddenly one said to me, ‘You’ve done pretty well here Goodman and your bombing results are good and your flying’s good.’ I said, ‘Thank you sir.’ He said, ‘How would you like to join 617 squadron?’ And I said, ‘What was that sir?’ [laughs] He said, ‘How would you like to join 617 squadron?’ I said, ‘I would be delighted and I know my crew would be.’ And that’s how we got posted to 617. Shall I go on?
CB: Ahum.
LBSG: When we arrived there of course we, we felt like mice there. All the famous names that had been on the squadron. One or two were still on it and I crept around really like a little mouse. I was frightened to show my face half the time because I thought I’m a sprog crew. I’ve never been on ops. What on earth are they going to think of me? And believe it or not, well not believe it or not I think you will believe it I was made so welcome by everybody that I felt pretty good in the end. Of course we had to do the squadron training. They had the SABS bomb sight which was the only, we were and still are I believe the only squadron that has ever had that sight but if you flew properly and that’s what 617 squadron was all about then you could guarantee if not a direct hit a pretty damn close one. Damn. Is that alright. I said damn. Yeah. Have to be so careful these days.
CB: Don’t worry about it.
LBSG: Yeah. We, we got through the training successfully and I did my first trip as a second dickie or co-pilot with flying officer Bob Knights and I couldn’t have been given a better chap if I’d chosen out of a hundred. To give you the feel of his value Bob was the flight lieutenant but had a DSO awarded and all those who understand that will know the real value of the man.
CB: Absolutely.
LBSG: The flight was to La Pallice. It was a French, a French port and we bombed successfully and came back and then I went to see the wing commander, Wing Commander Tait and he said ok. He’d spoken to Bob Knights obviously and Bob said ok or, ‘ was good enough’ I suppose, I don’t know and he said, ‘Ok. You and your crew will be on the next trip.’ I went back and told and everybody jumped for joy and our next trip in fact was to Brest. The U-boat pens at Brest. And of course being a sprog crew something was bound to happen wasn’t it? And halfway across the sea, on our way the wireless op said, no, I beg your pardon the flight deck filled with smoke and I said to the wireless op, ‘What’s going on at the back?’ He said, ‘Don’t worry. Don’t worry skip. The navigator and I are trying to put out the fire.’ [laughs] ‘The radios have caught fire.’ I said, ‘Oh great.’ Remember this was our first trip. I said, ‘Well the one thing we’re not going to do is turn back. This is 617 and there’s no way we’re going to turn back so you’d better get the bloody fire out.’ And I opened my DV panel. That’s the direct vision panel and tried to get the smoke out. Of course fortunately it was daytime but it was all over the, all over the flight deck. I mean, I could just about, I couldn’t see the instruments very well and but I could see out of the side panel, of course it was open and the DV was open so we managed to fly more or less on course until they put the fire out and then we continued on the op. And if anything was going to happen I suppose it would be on a first trip. After that we, apart from enemy action everything went very well, very well on the squadron. We had some, obviously brushes one way and another with the Luftwaffe and certainly with ackack and I always remember we had a wonderful bunch of ground crew and by the way I take my hat off to them. Nobody ever thinks about the ground crew but they were there day and night, winter, summer, pouring with rain, ice, snow or very hot they were always there when we came, before we left and when we came back. Always there to usher, to wave us into our dispersal and to look after us and to find out if there were any, if there were any snags and woe betide us if we’d been damaged by flak because they said, ‘What have you done to our aeroplane? Look at the holes in it.’ or whatever it was and all very good heartedly of course and they were the cream of the, they really were the cream, as far as far as I was concerned. They were the cream. Unsung heroes all of them. I don’t know anybody who got an award and they deserve some mention but as far as I know there’s never been a mention of them and it’s so unjust. Am I taking too -
CB: That’s alright. Just stop there a mo.
LBSG: Am I taking too -
[machine pause] 4019
CB: So with the ground crew you were getting on really well with them.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah
CB: And they were another part of the family really.
LBSG: Yes. Yes. The ground crew really were another part of our family and I can never understand why there was no tribute paid to them or no mention of them at any time in the huge part they played. Without them we wouldn’t be flying. And that still applies today. We did have one or two hairy trips I suppose on, on the squadron. I can remember so vividly still we deployed after the first abortive trip to sink the Tirpitz from a Russian forward base. We did one from Lossiemouth. We did two from Lossiemouth in fact but on the first one take-off was midnight from Lossiemouth and we were all lined up around the peri track, and people were, the perimeter track and people were taking off in turn and it was nearly our turn and suddenly my, I was looking around the cockpit just finally, everything had been done but you do, probably nervousness I don’t know, will keep you thinking about something. Not nervousness I don’t mean but just to keep you thinking about something and my flight engineer he used to sit by you in the dickie seat for all ops and he’d adjust the throttles or the props or anything you wanted. Synchronise them and of course he followed up on take-off and on landing. He used to, you’d call out the settings and he’d set, just minus four, minus two whatever it was and that’s how you’d come in but he suddenly nudged me, and he was a Scotsman who never used one word if half a word would do so I thought what does he want? He suddenly nudged me and he went like this and I looked up and there was the huge undercarriage of a Lancaster heading straight for us. Straight for us. It wasn’t maybe ten or twenty feet off the ground. Fortunately they cleared us and when we got back of course we found out what had happened and it was Tony Iveson who was taking off before us and he had an engine surge on take-off and so the aircraft swung off the runway and straight towards the parked aircraft which happened to be me facing him and but for the good background training and the alertness and the crew cooperation of his, he and his flight engineer there would have been a disaster but they straightened the aircraft by levelling the propellers above the throttles and then putting them up again and Tony Iveson just cleared the top of our cockpit. Just cleared it. That’s a very good start to a long trip. It was from Lossiemouth, it was pitch dark, it was midnight I think, pouring with rain and we were going low level over the North Sea all the way to the coasting-in point at Norway. What a good start. However, apart from that we all rendezvoused over the rendezvous point over the coast, Norway at daylight just as we were told to and Wing Commander Tait was leading of course and we formed up in to the gaggle and made our way to the Tirpitz and bombed it, or tried to. Unfortunately there was a lot of cloud. They’d put up a smokescreen anyhow but in addition to that there was a lot of cloud so it was an aborted trip. Thirteen and a quarter hours in total and we brought the bombs back. The Tallboys back. So the whole trip was thirteen and a quarter hours and that was the second Tirpitz effort. The third one was a repeat of the second one but the weather was clear and we bombed and I understand that Wing Commander Tait bombed first. His bomb made a direct hit on the Tirpitz.
CB: What could you see from that height?
LBSG: I didn’t see very much because we were following a Target Direction Indicator on the [combing of the] cockpit. It was the bomb aimer who was directing. He didn’t say left or right. He was adjusting his bomb sight and as he did so the target direction indicator came up and one degree looked about that big so he could, he could really show a one degree turn and you’d try it looked so big you would try to do it but you did do it, you’d try and that’s how we we kept within five nautical miles, five miles of our airspeed fifty feet in height and of course with the TDI we had to keep absolutely directly on track and that really I was only part of the team, the pilot. There was the navigator who had to make sure that the bomb aimer had the correct winds and the right temperature and that everything was set and he had the job of making sure when the bomb was to go. The navigator was very important with all the information he had and I was just sitting there like an auto pilot following this TD, Target Direction Indicator. TDI. So really I was the least important of them all. As long as I flew the right course at the right height and the right speed the others were doing the job and there it was, that’s how it was with all 617 squadron ops. With the SABS we did practice for a low level trip but that was a very, we practiced low level at night, five hundred or a thousand feet, on resin lights. They were the very very dim lights on the rear of the, on the, how do we describe it?
[machine pause]
CB: Right we’re just talking about lights.
LBSG: Yes. We did. Can I repeat?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: We practised a gaggle at night and had to, it was called a formation at night but it was very difficult to fly. We did it on the resin lights which were on the wing root of the aircraft you were trying to formate on. It was very difficult at night with a lot of aeroplanes but we managed to do it. It was all over Lincolnshire and everybody got back safely but it was deemed too dangerous to do again.
CB: In the night.
LBSG: Yes at night. Or operationally at all. I think, I think the feeling was we might have gone at night. The whole thing at night.
CB: I see. Right.
LBSG: But there you are. We never did it and I think everybody was thankful including, I believe, the squadron commander. Of course, it was really dicey. They’re a big aeroplane to throw around at night. A Lancaster. We just tried to formate but not too closely on the resin lights which shone so dimly. But there it is.
CB: You didn’t collide. Nobody had a collision.
LBSG: No. No sir.
CB: No. Ok. So in essence the Tirpitz raids were daylight because it wasn’t practical to do it at night.
LBSG: Well night day. We took off at night.
CB: Yes. But you arrived in daylight.
LBSG: Pardon me. We coasted in about daylight. Yeah. Excuse me.
CB: Ok. So coasting in means crossing the coast.
LBSG: Crossing the coast. Yes. And that was our rendezvous point. I think I said that.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I hope. If I made any mistakes please tell me.
CB: That’s alright. Yeah.
LBSG: I don’t know, where were we? Do I need to go -
CB: So this was on the second raid.
LBSG: I finished with that.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And the third raid sank it.
CB: Yes the third raid sank it.
LBSG: Yeah. It was a repeat of the second. There’s no point going through it all again.
CB: No. Ok.
LBSG: Right. Now, what else?
CB: So after that what did you do?
LBSG: I’ll have to get my logbook out to find out.
CB: Ok. But in principal after you’d done the Tirpitz there was nothing else to do there.
LBSG: No.
CB: But you were a precision bombing squadron so -
LBSG: Yes. Yes.
CB: What were you focusing on mainly then?
LBSG: Well we always had a particular target rather than area bombing but there weren’t many terribly specialised targets like the dams or the Tirpitz but we did what we were told to do and, I hope, successfully. We did have a shot at the Mohne, and Eder or Sorpe.
CB: Sorpe.
LBSG: Sorpe dams but with no result. We had Tallboys and they were absolutely not fit for the job. It was just a shot in the dark I think but we never did any damage. Or very appreciable damage.
CB: It was too soft.
LBSG: Yes, I imagine. Yes.
CB: Because it was an earth dam.
LBSG: It wasn’t the right bomb and it was built, I think the dam, the Mohne and the Sorpe were built in different ways, I think. I don’t know.
CB: Well the Sorpe’s an earthwork dam.
LBSG: Yes. Yeah. That’s right. Yes.
CB: So it absorbs -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: The impact.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Explosion.
LBSG: I don’t know. I can tell you about -
CB: So did you go on to U-boat target pens?
LBSG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So was that immediately after that?
LBSG: I’d better get my –
CB: Well we’ll stop for a mo anyway shall we?
LBSG: Yes. Yes.
[machine pause]
LBSG: I think October the 29th
CB: So we’re talking about the Tirpitz now.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: And the date of your, the third attempt to get it.
LBSG: Second. Second attempt.
CB: Second attempt.
LBSG: I was in hospital for the third one.
CB: Ok. So that was what date?
LBSG: 29th of October 1944.
CB: Right. Ok.
LBSG: 29th. 30th because -
CB: Yeah. Overnight. Yeah.
LBSG: We weren’t we were talking about something else weren’t we?
CB: No. No but it’s just to put that into context.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: Because it can go back.
LBSG: What do you want me to say?
CB: Yes. And so on the first raid you did what was the date of that? On the Tirpitz sortie.
LBSG: Yes. The first raid that I carried out -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Was, on the Tirpitz was on October the 29th
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: 1944.
CB: Right. And then the next one. The second one you did.
LBSG: I was in hospital so I didn’t go.
CB: You didn’t do the next one.
LBSG: I didn’t do the next one.
CB: No.
LBSG: Unfortunately.
CB: Right ok. So after the Tirpitz.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Then what did you do?
LBSG: Well it’s what -
CB: What sorties did you, were they, because you were precision bombing all the time -
LBSG: Yes. Well we went, after the Tirpitz we went after various dams. The earth dam.
CB: Oh yeah.
LBSG: At Heimbach.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And then the E&R boat pens at Ijmuiden in Holland and then -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: It was quite a long night trip in December 1944 to Perlitz which is Stettin.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: To destroy the synthetic oil plant there.
CB: Right.
LBSG: To deny the Germans fuel for their aircraft and tanks and anything else.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And that was a long trip. It was, it took twelve hours and fifty and thirty five minutes.
CB: There and back.
LBSG: There and back.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Yes. Sorry. Erase that.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: That was, it took nine hours and twenty five minutes at night.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: It was a night trip.
CB: Ok. And on the long night trips what did you do when you got hungry? Did you take food with you?
LBSG: Well we were supplied with food and coffee but -
CB: What would that be?
LBSG: But I can never remember eating anything.
CB: Oh really.
LBSG: I may have drunk some coffee. I think on the way back from the Tirpitz I did but I don’t think I ate anything at the time because we had, we had something to eat obviously before we left but there was nobody to fly the aircraft if I was going to sit there drinking coffee and having a sandwich. Of course there was one pilot and of course no autopilot.
CB: No.
LBSG: So if I decided to let go of the controls it wouldn’t be a very good idea. There was nobody else to fly it.
CB: And so after -
LBSG: People did of course. They could, you could sup coffee and you could eat a sandwich but I never really, I had coffee I think but never, never took, never had a sandwich I don’t think.
CB: And what height were you normally flying?
LBSG: I can tell, it varied. Up to eighteen thousand feet. We flew anything between twelve or fourteen and eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Are we talking about a mixture of free flowing bombs or only Tallboys?
LBSG: I’m talking about only Tallboys.
CB: Right. Ok. So in that case you needed to be a certain height for them -
LBSG: Yes. That’s right. We did. Yes.
CB: To reach the speed that was needed didn’t you?
LBSG: And we needed to be, have I mentioned it, needed the correct air speed to be flown.
CB: No. So what, so tell us the envelope you were operating.
LBSG: Well I -
CB: So the airspeed -
LBSG: I’m fairly sure, without knowing, because we were just given the bombing heights.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: That we never, we certainly never bombed less than sixteen to eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Right. And -
LBSG: Are we being recorded?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Oh.
CB: And what airspeed would you be going, roughly?
LBSG: A hundred and twenty five I suppose. I don’t –
CB: A bit more than that.
LBSG: What with the bomb doors open?
CB: Right. That’s what I’m asking. Yeah. So you approach, what sort of speed would you cruise first of all? On the way out say. Would you -
LBSG: I don’t know.
CB: Set it at a hundred and eighty or -
LBSG: No. Pardon me. A hundred and eighty miles an hour.
CB: Yeah. Or not?
LBSG: I just cannot remember. I’m sorry.
CB: It doesn’t matter. The reason I’m asking the question -
LBSG: That’s rather fast by the sound of it but it wasn’t –
CB: I’m just getting a feel for -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: What happens in terms of going out there?
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: And then do you change speed when you’re, because you’re doing such precision bombing.
LBSG: Yes, you, well -
CB: Do you have a different speed that is lower, faster or what?
LBSG: Well when the bomb doors are open of course it slows the aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: But you do have to settle down on a speed and I can’t remember it.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And we were supposed to be within fifty feet of height and five miles an hour airspeed.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And we all kept to that.
CB: Right.
LBSG: Without no doubt.
CB: So we’re talking about there’s a very -
LBSG: Precision bomb. Precision.
CB: Yes precision is very specific -
LBSG: Absolutely.
CB: On all these things.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: That are worked out in advance are they?
LBSG: Yes. [pause] No. Sorry they’re not worked out in advance. You have to fly within five miles an hour and of course it wasn’t nautical miles then it was miles per hour.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Of airspeed and within fifty feet of height and the bomb aimer would be given a set of settings by the navigator so that he corrected for temperature and height and wind and so on as much as the navigator could do it all. Obviously -
CB: Right. Yeah.
VT: So you were just told what to -
LBSG: Yes I -
VT: The bomb aimer was telling you wasn’t he?
LBSG: I could have been an auto pilot really.
VT: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: And the important people were the bomb aimer and the navigator really.
CB: Yeah but you were actually translating those instructions into a very -
LBSG: Yes I was but yeah.
CB: Specific held, tightly held speed and height.
LBSG: Oh you had to yes.
CB: So there was a skill in that that was greater than normal bombing.
LBSG: Yes but that’s why you were on 617 squadron.
CB: Exactly.
LBSG: Are we being recorded?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Oh. Ok.
CB: That’s fine.
LBSG: Yeah. That’s why we were on 617 squadron. All of us.
CB: Yeah. Yeah
LBSG: Once we passed the test if you like.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And of course if you weren’t up to scratch although I didn’t meet anybody who wasn’t but, but you could get kicked off and that would have been terrible for anybody.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: I mean you worked hard to stay, to stay on the squadron.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: There’s no doubt. Nobody wanted to leave it.
CB: No.
LBSG: Nobody.
CB: So how much by this time how much is daylight and how much is at night?
LBSG: At this time a lot more was in daylight although we trained for night bombing and we did, as I say, quite long trips. Nine hours and twenty five minutes to Stettin, Berlitz or, as an example. That’s quite a long trip of mine.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: Yes. I don’t know the long –
CB: So what else have you got on your logbook there?
LBSG: Well, of interest on January the 12th 1945. Are we recording?
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: We were briefed for a daylight on Bergen. The port.
CB: In Norway.
LBSG: Bergen in Norway yes. The port. And we had an escort of fighters but they had gone down, we were quite high on this occasion, we were, well we were always high, but, and they’d gone down to try and silence the ackack guns. There were an awful lot of them around the port and as they did so a m I think they were outside of a squadron of Focke Wulf 190s which was the latest or a mixture of that and the Messerschmitt but certainly there were a lot of fighters over the target and that was when Tony Iveson got shot up badly and he got a DFC for getting everything home. Although three of his crew baled out they weren’t, there was no communication, they thought, they’d been told to stand by and when they heard nothing else they thought that the thing had been shot up so badly so three of them baled out but you couldn’t blame them but two or three of them remained with Tony and they got the aircraft back. They used ropes to tie things up and it was an extraordinary feat and Tony Iveson put it down, I think it was certainly it was in the Shetlands or around there, one of the islands and he got an immediate DFC and certainly earned it. Certainly earned it. It’s a pity that his flight engineer who did so much towards helping Tony fly it because he couldn’t move the rudders by himself for example, he had to have an oppy sitting down there moving the rudders. The flight engineer. But anyhow there it was. I’m not criticising anybody I mean -
CB: No.
LBSG: It’s as they saw it. Not the crew. That’s how the command saw it.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: And all the rest of it. But that was a dicey trip, Bergen. We were lucky to get away. I think we had three shot down altogether.
CB: Did you?
LBSG: Two or three yeah. Yes. Of course our fighters, they must have been Mustangs because Spitfires could never have made it to Bergen in Norway. They must have been Mustangs. And they went away and shot, went down and shot away the ackack and lo and behold these fighters came and really tried to make mincemeat of us. They did. Well obviously they did. We were lucky.
CB: It didn’t sound a very good tactic did it? You should have, they should have left some fighters up top.
LBSG: Well yeah.
CB: Anyway -
LBSG: Yes. I mean we weren’t told, we weren’t told about the fighter -
CB: No.
LBSG: What the fighter tactics were.
CB: After Bergen where did you go?
LBSG: Oh all over the place. Went to [?]
CB: Is that a port?
LBSG: That was the Midget U-boat pens.
CB: Oh yes.
LBSG: They were a great menace. And we did the Bielefeld Viaduct.
CB: Oh yes.
VT: Oh right.
LBSG: And it was the Beilefeld, yes it was the Bielefeld.
CB: We talked about Tallboys but did you also do Grand Slam?
LBSG: Yes, I, yes.
CB: Because that was Bielefield wasn’t it?
LBSG: I did. I dropped a Grand Slam. I was on, I think the second or third on the squadron. Not many were dropped altogether. Only forty one were made and certainly not that amount were dropped I don’t think.
CB: No.
LBSG: But anyhow I dropped a Grand Slam on the Arnsberg Viaduct in March 1945. Now, it was important for the winning of the war that all lines of communication were severed so our targets were viaducts, railway bridges which they are, ordinary bridges, railway lines and so on because that stopped them bringing up troops.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And food and ammunition and all the rest of it. So lines of communication were certainly the target.
CB: So how did that do on that viaduct?
LBSG: Well yes. It -
CB: Brought it down.
LBSG: Yes it brought, but then look what they did with the dams. They had that up and working again in two or three weeks. They were masters at repairing things quickly.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And then we went back and bombed it again but nevertheless they -
CB: It was disruptive.
LBSG: They were a pretty tough adversary. They were. And -
CB: Sure.
LBSG: Able to, they weren’t, they were not stolid. They were versatile in their thinking. If they needed something then that would be done in the order it was needed.
CB: So just for the background of people listening to this -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: The Grand Slam is a twenty two thousand pound bomb.
LBSG: That’s right.
CB: What modification was there made to the aircraft and did the crew amount change when you did that?
LBSG: Yes. It did. Well it changed when we went to the Tirpitz. We only had five people I think. If you could pass me what I’ve written I could tell you.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: I know it but it would be much easier.
CB: Yeah. But just quickly on the, you had to take, did you lose -
LBSG: Be careful with that.
CB: The mid upper gunner when you were doing -
LBSG: No. No. I’ll have that back. Doing what?
CB: When you took a Grand Slam which member of the crew -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Did you not take?
LBSG: The Grand Slam. One, two, three. No, we took, we took the, we took the gunners. We didn’t take the wireless op.
CB: Right.
LBSG: For some reason. We took the gunners and we, yes because they’re necessary in daylight but we did anyhow but sometimes we took even fewer. On the Tirpitz we took [pause] sorry about this.
CB: It’s ok. We’re just looking in the -
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Logbook.
LBSG: Yeah. The Tirpitz. It was a full crew. No. I’m talking nonsense sorry. On the Tirpitz. Where am I? [pause]. Nothing. The Tirpitz. One, two, three there were five crew and not seven.
CB: Right.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So you would have, we’re talking about Tallboys.
LBSG: Five not including me sorry.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: We left-
CB: So six. Yeah.
LBSG: We left behind the rear gunner. Yeah. Unless, we took one gunner. He may have filled the rear gunner’s position but I can tell you.
CB: Well the wireless operators were often -
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: The wireless operators were often -
LBSG: Oh we took him.
CB: Wireless and gunner weren’t they?
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Originally.
LBSG: We took the wireless op because he was, not that it helped much but he was getting winds which weren’t as good as we were getting. I relied, I had a wonderful navigator and I took his word on anything rather than having command winds sent to us by -
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: Some Mosquito somewhere.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
LBSG: I was looking for something here. You asked me to check.
CB: Ok. We’re just going to -
LBSG: And I can’t remember it.
CB: Well, we’ll come back to that.
LBSG: Yeah.
VT: Is your logbook as alive today as it was when you wrote it?
LBSG: What?
VT: Your logbook.
LBSG: Yes.
VT: Is it as alive to you today?
LBSG: Yes as I wrote it and when we came back from a trip.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Yeah. It’s a bit fragile but you can have a look at it if you want to.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: The interesting thing I think about the later times is what sort of targets you were talking about and what was the, the Grand Slam was used for a particular reason for a particular target.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So what was that?
LBSG: Well I dropped mine on the viaduct.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: And that was a particular target but I suppose one Grand Slam certainly did make a mess. There’s no doubt about the targets but I can’t tell you the thinking behind it I’m afraid. I was a squadron pilot.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I had no, I obeyed orders and took what I was told to take. Nobody discussed the theory of it with me or -
CB: Right. No. Quite.
LBSG: The tactics.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Or anything else.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: The squadron commander knew but I didn’t.
CB: But the Tallboy was a big bomb in itself of twelve thousand pounds.
LBSG: That was a twelve thousand pound bomb. Yes.
CB: And had huge penetration as well.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And so was and of course the twenty two thousand pound was a huge one. There were only, I think, forty one made and I believe I was certainly the third or fourth on the squadron to drop one.
CB: Right. Well they worked.
LBSG: We dropped them. Hmmn?
CB: Yeah. They worked.
LBSG: Yeah. But a massive thing. And we did have an undercarriage, different undercarriage. I think we had -
CB: To get a greater height.
LBSG: We had, I think it was a Lincoln. I just, that’s what I wanted this for. Have a look.
CB: You were –
LBSG: Oh the Grand Slam. Yes. Just a sec. Yes, if you, are you interested?
CB: Yes.
LBSG: Well for the Grand Slam the Lincoln undercarriage was fitted rather than our own. They’d allowed for the increased weight.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: The mid upper and front turret were removed.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: That’s the gunners or one gunner at least and the wireless operator’s equipment and the wireless operator himself so we had a pretty skeleton crew when we -
CB: Simply because the bomb was so heavy.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: They needed to save -
LBSG: Well -
CB: Weight.
LBSG: Yes. The other thing that came out was the armour plating -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And that -
CB: Behind you -
LBSG: And the pilot’s union didn’t like that because we had armour plating behind us. However, it was all taken out and the ammunition load was reduced so we couldn’t, yeah, there we are and it was all to save weight. The bomb doors were removed and they were replaced with fairings and a chain link strop with an electromechanical mechanism release was fitted to hold the Grand Slam in place.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And the electric, electromechanical release worked very well. You could hear it. I know it sounds strange but you actually heard it go, in the air, eighteen thousand feet.
CB: Right. So you are at eighteen thousand and you lose that, you drop it.
LBSG: Oh well –
CB: What happens to the aeroplane at that time?
LBSG: I’ll tell you what happened to the aeroplane. Although I was prepared for something the aeroplane just lifted up. That’s right. It lifted up.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Like a lift. And my flight engineer who was sitting next to me said he heard a loud bang but I didn’t hear that. I think I was occupied wondering what was going to happen to the aeroplane. There was no -
CB: When you -
LBSG: The great thing about the war was these days you’d be on a course for everything but they just did all these modifications and put all these things on and nobody said even about the take-off run because nobody knew so it was all down to us but then we were on 617 squadron and supposed, we were all there because we would be, we had to be able to cope with these things.
CB: So you were stationed where?
LBSG: At Woodhall Spa.
CB: And when you flew with the Grand Slam -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Did you use the standard runway?
LBSG: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So what was the difference in the run needed for Grand Slam compared with using a Tallboy?
LBSG: There wasn’t too much difference. It was a longer run, take off run and it was a bit slower on the climb and I think the flight engineer said he saw the wings bend a bit more than they usually do but I don’t know but it was certainly a longer take off run obviously and it was much slower on, well much, it was slower on the climb but once you got going it was, the Lancaster was an absolutely superb aircraft. You could do anything with it. Is this being recorded?
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So what other, so how many, how many raids are we, so operations so far?
LBSG: Oh well. Tirpitz was, I mentioned, I mentioned Bergen haven’t I? That was –
CB: Yes. Then the viaduct.
LBSG: And the viaduct. Yes and the synthetic oil plant I mentioned.
CB: Yes.
LBSG: But I ought to mention -
CB: Did you do -
LBSG: If I can find it in the right place where we were escorted by an ME262 fighter.
CB: Oh were you?
LBSG: Which really put a bit of a jerk into us as you can imagine. I’m just trying to -
CB: Was he being aggressive or just curious?
LBSG: Well I’ll tell you about it. I’ll just find out when it was.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And I will tell you. [pause] Oh dear. Sorry. Do you mind the pause?
CB: No. I’ll pause it.
[machine pause]
CB: So we’re talking about the 262.
LBSG: Yes. We were briefed for a daylight raid on the docks and installations at Hamburg. The port of Hamburg and we carried out the bombing run and, [pause] let me find the right one.
CB: This is on Hamburg.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: Yes
LBSG: I’m looking for the one with the 262.
CB: Ah. Well we’ll just pause it again.
LBSG: Yeah.
[machine pause]
CB: Right we’re restarting now.
LBSG: Yes. I hope this is the one. On the 9th of April we were briefed for a daylight on the docks and installations at Hamburg and we did drop our Tallboy. There was a hang up and unfortunately it didn’t hit the target but went into the port area and I think probably some of the housing which we could do nothing about and on that occasion there were jet aircraft sent up to intercept us and we were fortunate we didn’t get intercepted. However, on the way back I was horrified when my, when my flight engineer who was always sitting next to me in the dickie seat nudged me in the ribs and went like this and I looked out and it all looked normal so I shrugged my shoulders and he nudged me harder and went like that to indicate look outside and I looked outside and I was absolutely horrified to see a Messerschmitt 262 in formation with us if you please. Which, to say the least, is a bit unusual. Now, he had cannon that could open fire three or four hundred yards before our tiny 303s even hit the synchronisation point and so we were, I mean we were helpless and he, he was there. He didn’t, there was no friendly wave and we stared at each other and my flight engineer looked at him as well and suddenly he disappeared as quickly as he’d come.
CB: So he was out of ammo.
LBSG: Well hang on.
CB: Ah.
LBSG: When we got back we mentioned it and Tony Langston who was a navigator in the aircraft behind us, he said, ‘Oh it was you was it?’ And I said, ‘Yeah. What do you mean?’ He said, ‘Well, we’d been attacked by the 262 and he opened fire on us and he got nowhere near us and he left us,’ and he said, ‘So it must have been you he formated on to have a look.’ Of course I was all ready to do the 5 group corkscrew and I don’t know what to get away from him but he just sat there and he wasn't, he couldn’t possibly fire at me while he was in good formation with me and it wasn’t much chance of a mid-upper shooting him down. I mean, I don’t think we had a mid-upper then. Just a sec, I think we only had the rear gunner. Can you -
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Wait?
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: Sorry.
[machine pause]
LBSG: We shoot at him.
CB: Right so -
LBSG: Sorry.
CB: Just repeat that. So you didn’t, on this particular time when the 262 came along beside you there was no mid upper turret operating.
LBSG: No. We had, there was no way we could shoot at him. We had one gunner and we’d have shot at ourselves I think if we’d tried. He probably could see that. Well he just sat there and then disappeared.
CB: How long was that for?
LBSG: To me it was about five hours but I think it was about thirty, about a minute, yes. Well I was just waiting for him to start an attack and I was getting all ready to do a 5 group corkscrew and all the other things but I don’t think we’d have stood much chance against him frankly. Anyhow, when we landed you were debriefed by the intelligence officer and I told him this and Tony Langston happened to hear me talking about it. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He went to you did he?’ I said, ‘Well yes.’ Apparently, he’d attacked Tony Langston’s aircraft. I think it was flown by Flying Officer Joplin, Arthur Joplin and although he’d shot at them he didn’t shoot the aeroplane down which was extraordinary and I only, can only assume he must have been a very young -
VT: Rookie.
LBSG: New pilot who’d gone through a crash course towards the end of the war and really were just firing the guns and of course he didn’t do any damage.
VT: This was quite late on then was it?
LBSG: Yes. I’ve just given you the date.
VT: Yeah.
CB: 9th of April.
LBSG: Yeah. Yeah. And well thank goodness he didn’t do it.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: I mean, he could have shot us both out of the sky without any trouble.
CB: Thirty millimetre cannon. Yeah.
VT: I suppose given the situation and what was the potential in the situation that you didn’t really have any thoughts about the 262 at that moment.
LBSG: Well -
VT: About its –
LBSG: What I was thinking of, ‘What shall I do?’ Because he was there and while he was on the starboard wing he couldn’t do any damage.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: But if he peeled off and we could see he was going to attack I would have to try and do a 5 group corkscrew -
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Which we were told to do. I don’t know what the success rate is.
CB: Ok. Just on that topic.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: Could you just describe what was the 5 group corkscrew?
LBSG: Yes. Certainly.
CB: How it worked. So –
LBSG: Well -
CB: You instigate it.
LBSG: The 5 group corkscrew was -
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: If you were attacked by an enemy aircraft you did something called a 5 group corkscrew. And that was from where you were you’d dive, rolling to the right and then after a few hundred feet you’d dive, continue to dive but roll to the left and then you would climb rolling to the right and you continue climbing and roll to the left. Now that’s a 5 group corkscrew and as you did, from the time you commenced the corkscrew you told the rear gunner what you were doing and you knew what deflection, this is theory, he knew what deflection he should be allowing for on his machine guns. So that was our defence and I don’t, I don’t know, fortunately I don’t know if it would ever work. Other people would have found out but they’d probably been shot down. You’ve got an agile twin jet fighter after you and you’ve got a big four engine.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Petrol, I mean fuel, you know.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: We weren’t jet we were the old fashioned engine.
CB: Piston. Yeah.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: Piston.
LBSG: Piston engine. Yeah. Wonderful aeroplane. Wonderful engines. I’ve no criticism there but they were a step, a hundred steps ahead of us with jet engines but we got away with it.
VT: What did you know at that time about the 262?
LBSG: Very little.
VT: Very little. Had you seen them before?
LBSG: Very little. Hmmn?
VT: Had you seen them before?
LBSG: Not in -
VT: No.
LBSG: Not in anger. No.
VT: No.
LBSG: We were attacked by jets over Hamburg and I suppose there must have been 262s amongst them but we were on the bombing run and you –
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: You just, you just had to stay on the bombing. There was no, excuse at all. You wouldn’t last five minutes on the squadron if you didn’t.
CB: We’ve covered a lot of stuff you’ve done.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: So when did you finish the tour?
LBSG: I can tell you that. Well I waited until the end of the war. I’d already finished the tour. Thirty operations.
CB: When did that happen?
LBSG: Well it was right at the end of the war I think and I opted to stay, to stay on the squadron. Hang on a second please.
[machine pause]
LBSG: I did my last operation on the 25th of April 1945 and that was against Berchtesgaden. The Eagle’s Nest.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And that was my, but by that time I’d done thirty trips. That was a tour of, tour of ops.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: But I was staying on. I didn’t want to leave the squadron.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: I didn’t know the war was going to end.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: So I‘d opted to stay on the squadron.
CB: Oh right. Which would have been another thirty if the war had continued.
LBSG: Oh no I mean, the war had, the next month, in May the war stopped.
CB: No. No. If the war had continued you would have done -
LBSG: Well -
CB: Thirty. Would you? By signing on for that?
LBSG: Well yes. Yes but on 617 squadron you weren’t time expired after thirty ops.
CB: Ah.
LBSG: On main force you were automatically but you went on on thirty, squadron, to any number of ops. There was no limit on thirty. No limit to thirty. I mean -
CB: No.
VT: So you -
LBSG: On the squadron. We could go on as long as the CO would put up with us and -
VT: So you would have gone on for leave.
LBSG: I would –
VT: And then -
LBSG: Well no I would have gone on if the war hadn’t finished. I would have gone on.
VT: Yes. Yes. So you would have had leave after that thirty.
LBSG: No. I wouldn’t because it was 617. Normally -
VT: You would have just continued on ops.
LBSG: Yes.
VT: Yeah.
LBSG: Normally, on main force, after thirty ops you had, you were rested. You automatically, you were -
CB: Yes.
LBSG: Posted and you became an instructor on something or other.
CB: Right. Ok so how much longer did you continue with 617?
LBSG: Good question that. I will tell you. I should have said. May the 10th ’45.
CB: Right. Two days after the end of the war.
LBSG: Yeah because they posted and I went, well yes I went into what would have, was going to be Transport Command. It wasn’t then of course and I think with another chap we flew the first two sorties that Transport Command ever did I think. What was the beginning. Hang on a sec. I’ll -
CB: So you were posted somewhere quite different then?
LBSG: Oh yeah. Well I was posted to Leconfield.
CB: Right.
LBSG: And then, I mean, oh at Leconfield it was awfully, we had nothing to do at all and so I went to the, there was a Halifax squadron there and I went to the CO of the squadron and asked him if I could be checked out on a Halifax because we were doing nothing all day and my crew, well one or two of the members of the crew I had left came with me and he said yeah and he, you know checked me out on a Halifax and I said, ‘Can I go on flying?’ And he said, ‘Yeah, if you want to,’ and before I knew it I was flying bigwigs around Germany showing them all the -
CB: Cooks tours.
LBSG: Yeah the Cooks tour of Germany. And it suited me, I was doing some flying. So that’s how I came to fly Halifaxes. And of course I’d flown Stirlings at OT, heavy conversion bombing unit and then when the war ended, I’ll see here flew, yes I did a bit of Fairey flying. Where was this? Stirling. Here we are I think. Stirling flying. Yes. I was posted to, oh dear, another I was posted to, what was I doing?
CB: After Leconfield.
LBSG: Oh 31. 51 squadron I think. Yeah. 51 squadron.
CB: Oh right. At Skellingthorpe.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: They were at Waddington by then.
LBSG: I’m not sure. I don’t know if they were.
CB: They were Skelly oh.
LBSG: This is what I was talking about. September ‘45.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: And August.
CB: Otherwise Skellingthorpe.
LBSG: August ’45.
CB: Yeah.
LBSG: And I did the, what did we do? We did some, yes another chap and myself, called Saunders I think, we were the first to, what was the beginning of Transport Command. We, we could fly Stirlings so we went, we did a sort of proving flight out to Castel Benito if I remember correctly. Yes. And then did some, I don’t know, must have taken freight or something I don’t know. Anyhow, we went, I did quite a bit of flying on the way out to [Shima?] Maripur in Stirlings.
CB: So 51 squadron was on Stirlings was it?
LBSG: Well it must have been.
CB: Was this 51?
LBSG: Yeah. 51, it must have been. Yeah. And we did all sorts of things on Stirlings. Yes, we, I did quite a few hours afterwards on Stirlings. I’ve just realised that and we carried, believe it or not, twenty four passengers. That was all in the Stirling. Of course there was nowhere to put them except in the middle we were all, have you seen the inside of a Stirling? It’s like a submarine. You’ve got these big wheels. If the engineer wanted to change the fuel tanks he had to go halfway down the fuselage with these massive wheels and well it was just like a submarine really. They built them as submarines. And when you, when you took off, as part of the engineer’s duty as soon as you retracted the undercarriage which was like a bailey bridge, they were really, he had to go and check, there was a meter which showed you the amount of revs and each undercarriage and the twin tail wheel, twin tail wheel they had to be within five revolutions of the set figure given when they were retracted [coughs], excuse me, and if they weren’t then you were supposed to go back and land. What you did was you put it down and brought it up again in the hope, because the last thing you wanted to do you’d gone through all the trouble of getting airborne in a Stirling and then to find the undercarriage rev counter had stopped working so we never never had a boomerang for that. Never. But the tail wheel also had a, but it was extraordinary you had to go and check the rev counters to make sure. It was like a bailey bridge going up and down really. Extraordinary. The Stirling was a nice aeroplane to fly.
CB: Was it?
LBSG: It was and I did quite a bit of flying on it out to India and back with passengers. Shaibah. Lida. Cairo.
CB: This was –
LBSG: Went to Cairo.
VT: when you mention the Cooks tour. I’m just thinking for the tape should you not explain something about that? And also -
CB: Ok so -
VT: Who were the bigwigs.
CB: So what people were these bigwigs that you took on the Cooks tours?
LBSG: Well I think they were generals and admirals and air marshals and other probably highly placed civil servants and of course to see anything they had to stand behind you or look out of what windows there were. After all it was a Halifax. It was a bomber not a sightseeing aeroplane [laughs].
CB: No.
LBSG: But they didn’t mind. They stood there and of course there were all these devastated cities.
CB: So what height were you?
LBSG: It was a horror to see.
CB: Yes. What height were you flying?
LBSG: Oh pretty low for them to see. Well high enough for them to have an overall view but not up, not very high.
CB: No. What sort of height are we talking about?
LBSG: Oh a few thousand feet I think.
CB: Ok.
LBSG: Yeah. We might come down lower to show them a specific thing but it was really, when I think about it horrifying. These huge cities. But it was great going to Cologne because everything was ruined except the cathedral and that was, and I am sure that was by sheer luck. I am sure. Because we were never briefed don’t hit the cathedral and at night I mean [ ?] I think it was sheer luck but anyhow it reflected greatly on the RAFs reputation and we’ve kept it that way. I’m sure you can’t blame, oh.
CB: Yes. That’s right.
LBSG: Oh no. Please.
CB: That’s fine.
LBSG: Oh no.
CB: We can wipe it.
LBSG: Oh yeah that little bit please.
CB: Right, so -
LBSG: Just -
CB: So -
LBSG: Just -
CB: So we were talking about Cooks tours.
LBSG: Yeah.
CB: It’s about people who were -
LBSG: Bigwigs.
CB: Being shown -
LBSG: Yes.
CB: The effect of -
LBSG: Yes. Of the bombing.
CB: Of the bombing.
LBSG: On Germany.
CB: Strategy yeah. So what do you want me to say then?
LBSG: Yeah that’s just to explain. You’ve just said it yeah.
CB: The Cooks tour in the Halifax was for bigwigs and top ranking officers to show them how accurate the bombing had been and how right the RAF strategy was.
CB: Ok. That’s fine. Good.
VT: Wonderful.
CB: So just tell us about the crew then. So you had the same crew all the time did you?
LBSG: Yes. I had the same crew throughout -
CB: On the 617.
LBSG: My operational flying. I think I explained that we picked each other at random but it always seemed to work out. Very rarely did it, did it not work out and I had a splendid crew and they supported me all the way through.
CB: What mixture of nationalities were they?
LBSG: Well at that time they were all British but one was a Welshman. I suppose he didn’t, wouldn’t like me to call him, he’d like me to call him Welsh now but he was he was a rear gunner. The rest, yes, were all British. Were all English. But in those days they were all British.
CB: And the crew themselves at work, rest and play was it?
LBSG: Yes.
CB: So you did everything together.
LBSG: Not everything but we were pretty well bonded together.
CB: So what was the rank range? So you were by then -
LBSG: Flight lieutenant.
CB: What rank? Right.
LBSG: And -
CB: Any other officers -
LBSG: I had -
CB: In the crew?
LBSG: I think I had a flight, I think Tony Hayward, the bomb aimer, I’m not sure if he’d been promoted to flight lieutenant by then. The navigator was a flying officer. Tony Hayward was either a flying officer or flight lieutenant and the rest of the crew were sergeants or flight sergeants and became warrant officers as well.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Thank you. We’re going to stop there and -
LBSG: I’m glad to hear that.
CB: Pick up things later. Isn’t that amazing?
VT: Oh yeah. Terrific. Terrific.
LBSG: What?
CB: So that was really good Benny.
LBSG: Hmmn?
CB: That’s really good.
LBSG: You’re being nice to me there.
VT: No. No. No. No. No.
CB: I’m trying to be because I want to be able to come back. [laughs]
LBSG: Yeah. Certainly. Well I mean -
CB: Oh no. This is really good. I’m serious. Now the point here really is that we are going to read that. We’re rushing off because we’ve laboured you a lot but also -
LBSG: Oh that’s alright.
CB: We need to get back.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: And I’m coming down here again shortly ‘cause I want to go to Crowthorne and a ninety six year old lady whose husband is suffering from dementia -
LBSG: Oh dear.
CB: The last eight years and is now in a home but she was on intelligence at -
LBSG: Was she at -
CB: At Driffield.
LBSG: Oh Driffield, not on, was it -
CB: And, and later, later at Linton on Ouse.
LBSG: Yes.
CB: And she spent three and a half years at Linton on Ouse.
LBSG: But she wasn’t at the, where am I?
VT: Bletchley?
LBSG: Hmmn?
VT: Bletchley.
LBSG: Bletchley Park.
CB: No. No. No. No. She was a WAAF in the -
LBSG: Well there were lots of WAAFs there.
CB: Administration and cook.
LBSG: Yeah. She was a WAAF intelligence officer.
CB: Yeah. Not officer. Just -
LBSG: No WAAF on, yeah.
CB: She was asked -
LBSG: Well she’d have something to say. Things to tell you.
CB: They wanted to commission her twice but she refused because she wanted to be where the -
LBSG: Her mates.
CB: Where the action was. Yes. So thank you very much indeed.
LBSG: Well I’ll probably be -
CB: And –
LBSG: Talking, bored you to death.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Benny Goodman. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-07
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodmanLS160407
PGoodmanLS1501
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
Germany
Description
An account of the resource
Benny Goodman grew up in London and hoped to become a pilot. He volunteered for the Air Force and was originally posted to RAF Abingdon as a ground gunner before beginning his flying training. After qualifying as a pilot in Canada, he became an instructor to Navy pilots. He survived his ship being torpedoed before he finally joined the Queen Mary in New York and returned to England. He flew operations with 617 Squadron and discusses a fire in the cockpit of his Lancaster, narrowly missing and mid-air collision and flying alongside a Me 262.
Format
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01:31:12 audio recording
51 Squadron
617 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
Grand Slam
Halifax
Harvard
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Magister
Me 262
military discipline
military living conditions
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
perimeter track
pilot
RAF Abingdon
RAF Leconfield
RAF Silverstone
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
Stirling
submarine
Tallboy
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/546/8787/PJohnsonKA1507.1.jpg
a4899a68c46a58711c699203c30b2867
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/546/8787/AJohnsonKA170403.2.mp3
eb18c023f71add18db542da2c8c7f140
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Johnson, Ken
K A Johnson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Johnson, KA
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Ken Johnson (b. 1924, 1595311 Royal Air Force) and one photograph. He flew operations as an air gunner with 61 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-03
2017-04-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: We are now moving to another interview. My name is Chris Brockbank, and today is the 3rd of April 2017, and I’m in Doncaster with Ken Johnson who did two tours, and we’re going to talk about his life and times in the RAF. So, what’s your earliest recollection Ken? Of life.
KJ: In the RAF?
CB: No, in your family.
KJ: Oh, my family. Well, my father was a ironmonger, not an ironmonger, an iron moulder rather, by trade. So there was very little for that in Doncaster so he used to have to travel to Sheffield to work and he used to cycle there, do nine hours in the foundry and cycle home.
CB: Where were you living? In Doncaster?
KJ: Yeah. We lived, oh in that many parts of Doncaster it’s unbelievable. Hexthorpe, Doncaster, Balby, everywhere in Doncaster we’ve lived. I think he’d got a bit of gypsy in him, we never settled too far.
CB: Trying to be a moving target, was he?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Was he in the First World War?
KJ: No, no, he weren’t old enough.
CB: Right. And how many brothers and sisters did you have?
KJ: I had two brothers, no sisters. Both younger than myself and both have passed on.
CB: Right. Two brothers and two sisters.
KJ: No sisters.
CB: No sisters.
KJ: No.
CB: Just two brothers, yeah. And where did you go to school?
KJ: I started at Balby Infant’s School, I went to Hexthorpe, I went to Intake. I don’t think there’s many schools in Doncaster I haven’t been to.
CB: Why was that?
KJ: My dad, he’d got itchy feet. He could never settle at one place so we were always changing homes.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Aye. He’d brought a, he had it built, a bungalow at Finningley, a beautiful bungalow but my mother wouldn’t go to live there. She were a townie, she didn’t like countryside. Well we went, we lived there three days to be quite honest and that were it. She’d had enough.
CB: And what did you and your brothers think?
KJ: Pardon?
CB: What did you and your brothers think?
KJ: Well they were much younger than I. I was the eldest. There was one five years younger, and one ten years younger, so none of us really had any say in the matter. It was a bit unfortunate, keep having to change schools because you never got in to the ways of the school you were joining, but there you are. We had to knuckle under and put up with it.
CB: What did you do at school?
KJ: Just the ordinary schooling. No, er, I didn’t go to anything special you know, it was just the ordinary school.
CB: Yeah. And what did you do when you left school?
KJ: When I first left school we were living at Sheffield, which was just before the war, and I was a joiner’s apprentice, but when the war was, when the war started my dad said, ‘We’re going back to Doncaster. Sheffield will get bombed’, and he never said a truer word. It did. It got terribly bombed so we were back in Doncaster, and I was still in wood but it wasn’t a joiner’s apprentice, it were just a mundane. We were making clothes horses for people, for ladies to put their clothes to dry on. Clothes drier. And I stuck that for so long and then I went to work at British Ropes, down Carr Hill, in a reserved job which was making cables for barrage balloons. It was, it was a job that there were no joinings in the way. It had got to be a single wire and so it was classed as a reserved occupation. I only got in the RAF because I kept pestering them. I wanted to go and eventually they let me go. I always wanted to fly and I did plenty of that.
[pause]
CB: What type of flying did you want to do?
KJ: Anything. I were, I was prepared to do anything, and the quickest way — I mean a pilot and navigator and those sort of jobs, they were two or three years training and they had to go out to Canada and all like that. Well to be a gunner, it were only a matter of about eighteen months, so I chose the, oh at first it was like you said, wireless operator air gunner but that drove me mad that dit dit da dit dit da business, so I volunteered for a straight gunner and got away from it.
[pause]
CB: And what made you attracted to being a gunner particularly?
KJ: It was the easiest way of getting into aircrew. They needed two gunners to any other trade and I wouldn’t say my education were all that good anyway, so I chose the easy way, volunteered for a gunner.
CB: And when you started gunnery training, how did that go?
KJ: It went very well. I did that up at Dalcross in Scotland, so, yeah it went well. The flying part of it was exceptional ‘cause of the scenery, it was absolutely fantastic, the scenery we were flying over up in the north of Scotland. Aye. I never had any problems in that respect.
CB: What aircraft were you flying as training for that?
KJ: Originally Ansons, then we went on to Wellingtons and then finally Stirlings, and then finally Lancs, but I did all my operational flying on Lancs.
CB: So how did the gunnery course start? What did they do with you to begin with?
KJ: Well we used to go up in the aircraft. I think there were three, there might have been five, either three or five and your, your bullets that you would be firing had a different coloured paint on so they knew which, who had hit how many, and we flew up and then [pause], now I can’t remember the name of the aircraft. It was, it was originally supposed to be a fighter but it can’t have been fast enough so they used —
CB: And that was the Defiant.
KJ: Pardon?
CB: Defiant. With a turret on it.
KJ: No, these were the aircraft that towed the target.
CB: Oh right.
KJ: And I remember they were always Polish pilots, always Polish, which was a bit hectic at times.
CB: Did the tug ever get hit?
KJ: Oh yeah. It wasn’t as easy as you thought, but it, yeah, we, as I say these bullets had a different colour on so they could tell when the drogue came back who’d hit, how many times and so on.
CB: How well did you score?
KJ: Well I didn’t think it were very well. I usually averaged about .5, but there were some worse than me and some a heck of a lot better, so [pause], I mean when you got in a Lancaster and you were, you went into a corkscrew, it’s a wonder you hit anything because one minute you were upside down, the next minute you were stood on your toes. All over the place and you were supposed to — you’d sight. Gun sight was a coloured lit up small thing, and at certain points you were supposed to put the target, say a quarter of the way down or the other side of it, wherever you moved you were supposed to — well trying to remember that lot were impossible. All you could do were aim ahead of the enemy aircraft and just blaze away and let him come through your hail of bullets.
CB: But you had a means of targeting according to the type of aircraft. How did that work?
KJ: No, not really. No. You just had this —
CB: Based on wing span wasn’t it?
KJ: Pardon?
CB: Based on wing span.
KJ: Yeah, and as I say you just had this image, lit up image, and you were supposed, at any point where, same as if you saw the fighter coming from starboard, you’d, say, ‘Fighter starboard. Corkscrew starboard. Go’, and at that, he’d dive in toward the enemy fighter. Well you can imagine, the pilots used to really thrash the aircraft around to avoid being hit themselves and so it were very very difficult to go to the procedure that —
[banging noises]
Other: Sorry. I did that.
KJ: To go to the procedure that you were supposed to go through, but you just had to make, make the best of it as you went along.
CB: Yeah. So as you mentioned corkscrew.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: This was the way of evading an attacking fighter.
KJ: It’s what?
CB: So just talk us through. Who made the call for the corkscrew?
KJ: The gunner.
CB: Which one?
KJ: Which one? The one that saw the fighter coming first.
CB: Right.
KJ: He’d shout out, ‘Fighter starboard’, or port or upper or down, and you were supposed to wait ‘til they were two hundred yards away because if you did it too soon, they could follow you.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So you were, you judged when it were the right distance, and the, ‘Corkscrew starboard. Go’, and then the pilot would go towards the fighter that was after you.
CB: So that he would overshoot. Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So in the corkscrew, what exactly was the manoeuvre? He was pulling it round hard. Then what?
KJ: Well he dived.
CB: Right.
KJ: Then climbed.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Then climbed again, then down again, that’s where you got your corkscrew.
CB: Right.
KJ: It looked like a corkscrew going through the sky.
CB: Getting you back on track.
KJ: Yeah, and as soon as they broke away you stopped it and waited for them coming again and then started it all over again.
CB: How many times did you get attacked?
KJ: Oh quite a few times but we never, we got hit with bullets but we never got them in any vital places.
CB: Right. We’re ahead of ourselves in a way, but going back to training.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: In the first part of the training, you’re on the ground.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So how did they carry out that training? With what sort of weapon?
KJ: Well you had, you had the usual 303 Brownings that you’d be using in the aircraft, but there was a turret mounted on a railway track and you just went round this circuit, and the aircraft had come over with a drogue and you’d try to get as many shots in as you could. But they frowned on, there was some got, tried to be a bit crafty and waited till it was a dead shot and then you couldn’t miss, but they frowned on that. They wanted you to do it the hard way like.
CB: So what sort of height are these target tugs coming in at?
KJ: They’d be at same height as yourself but coming in from all different directions.
CB: I meant when you were on ground. You were on the railway tracks.
KJ: Oh.
CB: So, what height are they coming in?
KJ: Well the drogue was on the same track but ahead of you, and that’s where they didn’t like you waiting till they come to a corner, because then you could just bang away and ever hit, everyone had hit.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So they frowned on that, but it was tried to make it as realistic as possible, and then, on top of that, you’d got cameras in the ones that you were flying and you did the same thing with a camera.
CB: So how did they deal with deflection shooting training?
KJ: Well you were always in the, each position the plane was in, on your gun sight, there was a place you were supposed to put your, put your sight on this and then fire away there, but as you could imagine, when you were doing corkscrewing, you were up and down and one minute you was, your head was banging on the top of the turret. The next minute, you felt as though they’d put a tonne weight on your shoulders. It was very difficult to, to aim.
CB: Ok. Back at the training so after a certain amount of ground training, did you use shotguns for deflection training?
KJ: Yeah, yeah, did all that. Yeah.
CB: Right, and did you alternate between using the Browning 303?
KJ: Oh I did. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And the shotgun.
KJ: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So it was a clay pigeon.
KJ: Clay pigeon, yeah.
CB: Shot. Right. So then you come to the flying, so three of you in an Anson. Or five.
KJ: Aye. Yeah.
CB: How did that work?
KJ: And you took turns to climb in to the turret and do your, do your thing.
CB: Because it’s a mid-upper turret on the Anson.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Right.
KJ: Yeah, yeah, it was a twin engine. There were two very similar aircraft, Anson and Oxford, but I only ever heard of the Anson having the turret. Might have been Oxfords used for the same reason. There were no reason why not. They were almost alike aircraft [coughs] excuse me.
[pause]
CB: So in that aircraft, let’s say the Anson, you’ve got three or five students.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Who’s there guiding you?
KJ: Just the pilot.
CB: Was there another, an experienced air gunner?
KJ: Oh yeah, yeah, there would be, and he’d tell you when it was your turn to go in and come out.
CB: What sort of guidance did he give you?
KJ: Well he couldn’t do much at all except keep your eye on the target, and such tips as waiting while they were flying across you and getting ahead of them, and then really putting the bursts in. You were sure to hit something, but the thing that amused me — I thought these, when we got to that stage, I thought the people that were teaching us would have done operations but they hadn’t. They’d just, they’d been good in their training so they’d been held back as instructors.
CB: Was it actually a mix? Were there some people who were experienced?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Air gunners. Were there?
KJ: Well as I say there were, they’d done well in their training and they were held back.
CB: But there were people who’d been on operations there.
KJ: No. I thought there would be.
CB: But not at that time.
KJ: No.
CB: Ok. Right. And when you went up, how long was your go?
KJ: No more than half an hour. Yeah. From climbing in to climbing out of the turret. Yeah.
CB: Ok. And after Dalcross, then what happened?
KJ: After Dalcross, we were then went to OTU, our Operational Training Unit, and that was where you crewed up, but the normal thing was you’d get the same number of pilots, navigators etcetera, and they palled-up amongst themselves for a day or two, and then the pilot would say to one, navigators probably, ‘I want you as my navigator’. And that’s how it were crewed up, but I didn’t get that choice because when I went to OUT, there was so many crews ahead of us that hadn’t got gunners or they’d only got one gunner and needed another one, so we would, what would, what would you say, we were told which crew —
CB: Yeah.
KJ: We were going to be with.
CB: You didn’t get a choice.
KJ: I didn’t get a choice. I couldn’t have done better so. I remember we, we were, there’s Bruntinghorpe and Bitteswell. One was used for flying and the other was where you did your learning your other parts of the job, stripping guns down and all that sort of thing, and I remember I was told to go to the gatehouse where there was this navigator. He was going to be my navigator so he’d, I’d got to go see him and he would introduce me to the rest of the crew like. So we went, we went to the billets first the whole crew shared, well two crews shared a billet. There were fourteen beds in and he said, the navigator said, ‘Oh they’ll be going for lunch now to the sergeant’s mess so we’ll go meet the rest of the crew’. So we trooped off to the sergeant’s mess and there was a bit of a [pause] well I don’t know how to describe it, a bit of a hullaballoo going on. This pilot had gone in to the sergeant’s mess and he’d just picked out a gunner, a navigator and a wireless operator, ‘Come with me’, and he took them to a Wellington. They went off. He wanted to land at this aerodrome to meet a friend, but when they got there, they wouldn’t allow him, so he came back but he were in such a temper he tried to land without putting his wheels down. Made a mess of the undercarriage. Luckily, they all got away with it but he got put down in rank but lost about three ranks. And then we, we went into the mess and the navigator says, ‘Oh there’s the pilot’, and he were in a big armchair like this, with a sheet of newspaper over his face, away to the world, and this sheet of paper kept going up and down [laughs].
CB: As he puffed away.
KJ: As he were breathing. And he says, ‘There’s Harry’. His name was Harold really but he preferred being called Harry so, ‘There’s Harry there’, and I said, ‘Well don’t disturb him. He’s having a nice little nap there’. ‘Oh he’ll have to wake up for his lunch’, so he woke him up and introduced me. Shook hands with me, settled back down in his chair, pulled his paper down and went back to sleep [laughs], so that was my introduction to Harry Watkins.
CB: A flight sergeant.
KJ: Yeah. He’d, he was an amazing man he was. He was no bigger than me, no taller than me, maybe an inch but no more than that, but he’d got a chest on him like a barrel and he was strong as a bull. I’m sure he could have looped a Lancaster if he’d have wanted to, or if he’d been allowed to I should say, and he was a lot older than me. He’d gone to Finland to fight for the Fins against the Russians, and he were a fighter pilot and then when they signed a treaty, they sealed off the land borders so the only way they could get out, there was him and his friend, the only way they could get out was by sea, so they, they hired a trawler and they hit some very bad weather and almost drowned. A Russian gun boat picked them up, took them back to Russia and put them in a concentration camp. So he was ten, ten or eleven months in this concentration camp living on cabbage water. So by the time he got released, and the reason he’d got released was when the second front came, some of our soldiers that couldn’t get back to the beaches went to the Russians and they put them in this concentration camp, but the thing was, the British Consul had got a check on them. So they, as they were, they got them out, and these two other Britishers said, ‘When you get out, tell them there’s two more Englishmen in here wanting releasing’, and that’s how they got out. But he’d lost an amazing amount of weight, he’d, he had to go to Rhodesia to be built up before they’d let him sign up for the RAF. Aye. But he was an amazing man.
CB: But how did he come to go to Finland in the first place?
KJ: Well, you know, during the Spanish war.
CB: Ahh. The Spanish Civil War, yeah.
KJ: Some British were, well various —
CB: Yeah. The International Brigade.
KJ: That’s right.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Well, that’s how they did for Finland.
CB: Oh, did they?
KJ: Aye.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So, aye, anyway they got out and built him up and then let him join up.
CB: So how did the crew get together after they were, get on when they got together?
KJ: Well, at first you, all the different navigator, pilots etcetera, etcetera, they were all went in this big room and allowed to mingle and talk among themselves, and they palled up. That’s what it amounted to but as I say, I never had that choice.
CB: No.
KJ: Because I, they’d got, they were crewed up except for another gunner and they just said right, oh they gave us a test on aircraft recognition and the first ten I think it was, were allotted to crews that hadn’t got a gunner.
CB: Ok.
KJ: And I stayed with him. We did a tour. Well a lot just did the tour and then took a rest and probably they never got called on again, but we all volunteered to keep going.
CB: Oh. You all did? You all volunteered to keep going as a crew, did you?
KJ: All but two. One was the navigator and he’d got a wife and two kiddies and he didn’t think it were fair on them to just volunteer to keep going, and the other one was the wireless operator. He had a sick mother and there again, he thought it weren’t fair to her to, so, and as far as I know, they never did call them up again.
[pause].
KJ: I don’t know where any of the crew are. I know the pilot died ‘cause I got — it’s in the Midlands, his grave, but as far as I know, he just died of, well it wouldn’t be old age because he wouldn’t be all that old, but perhaps had some sort of illness.
CB: So we talked about the OTU and you’re getting together there.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: How long were you at the OTU and what were you doing?
KJ: We used to go on flights, cross country’s they called them, and you had, you were given a course that you had to take, and on the way, there’d be some bomb practice places and you’d call there and drop, drop a bomb. A four pound practice bomb on it and you got marks for that and you got marks for being at certain points at certain times. So we did very well at that because we’d got an excellent navigator and an excellent bomb aimer and an excellent skipper. And that, we went on these cross country’s, which could take ten or even twelve hours, and as I say, you’d had to call at it’d perhaps be a power station or something. It were a great big power station that became common afterwards, but it was the only one at the time in the Midlands somewhere and that was a favourite place for you to. Of course, you didn’t actually drop a bomb on there, it were just a case of photographing it as though you had bombed.
CB: So the OTU lasted?
KJ: Three months.
CB: Three months.
KJ: Yeah, perhaps more.
CB: And then you went to the HCU. So your OTU was at Bruntingthorpe.
KJ: Operationally, yeah.
CB: Then the Heavy Conversion Unit. The HCU.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Where was that?
KJ: That was at either Bruntingthorpe or Bitteswell, I can’t remember. The two B’s so I can’t remember which was which.
CB: But they were the OTUs weren’t they?
KJ: Yeah. Oh well we did us [pause], I can’t remember.
CB: Ok, but you said you moved to Stirling.
KJ: Yeah, we went on Stirlings. I hated them.
CB: Why didn’t you like that?
KJ: They weren’t very easy to fly in. They were, if you, if you had to, with a Lancaster, you drove towards the landing strip and then eased up so as you’d got a three point landing, but if you did that with a Stirling, it’d break it’s back and you’d be —
CB: Oh.
KJ: Yeah, and there was always plenty to let you know about it. Wreckage on the, on the airfield.
CB: Oh really. Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So how many, how long were you flying that before you changed to Lancaster?
KJ: Luckily it wasn’t too long. About six weeks that.
CB: And doing the same exercises or different?
KJ: Doing mostly the same things. Yeah.
CB: To what extent were you doing fighter affiliation?
KJ: Oh we were doing that. Every time we went up we’d have a bit of that in.
CB: Right.
KJ: You’d got to keep your eyes open in the gun turrets because they could come up on you anywhere, and you’d perhaps be like them cross country’s ten hours. Twelve hours in some cases.
CB: So that’s your HCU.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Then your first squadron you joined was?
KJ: 61.
CB: Where was that?
KJ: Skellingthorpe.
CB: Right.
KJ: Just outside Lincoln, and there were two squadrons shared the same airfield.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So when there was a bombing raid on, you’d get them coming from both sides but you used to take it in turns, 50, 61s and so on, until you’d got the two squadrons airborne. Yeah.
CB: And how many bombers in a squadron?
KJ: Eighteen. They’d usually aimed to have eighteen in the air.
CB: Oh in the air. Right. So not all of them flew, so how many aircraft were there?
KJ: Well no I mean, if there was anything serious like an engine change or anything like that, then one squadron or the other would be one down, but usually they aim for getting eighteen from each squadron on a raid.
CB: Ok. So when you got to the squadron then, when you got to the HCU, then the flight engineer and the rear gunner joined.
KJ: Yeah. Well only the flight engineer.
CB: Or the upper gunner which was you.
KJ: It was the upper gunner was the one that joined so far through.
CB: So you didn’t go to the OTU, or you did?
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. I joined them at —
CB: At the OTU.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And then —
CB: And at the HCU, then the flight engineer joined.
KJ: Joined us, yeah.
CB: Right.
KJ: And again, we didn’t have any choice, they just marched us on parade.
CB: Who was that?
KJ: They called him Fred Jowett.
CB: How did he gel? Bearing in mind you’d been together already?
KJ: It were, well he took up with the rear gunner, him and Fred were big friends, they used to go out.
CB: Carson Foy.
KJ: Yeah, used to go out drinking at night and all that sort of business, but he was married and I didn’t like the way he treated his wife, so I hadn’t got a lot of time for him.
CB: Oh.
KJ: He were good at this job but [pause] I always remember the parade when he was put in our crew, and he’d got a pair of trousers that he’d had widened like sailor’s trousers [laughs]. He got reprimanded for that and made to pay for them being put back to what they should be. And his, his cap, I think he must have cleaned engines with his cap, it were just one block of grease. He and his wife, whenever he got forty eight hour leave or anything like that, used to come home with me because his wife were in Army.
CB: Oh.
KJ: And she was stationed in Doncaster, she was a sergeant. And my mum and dad used to let them use their bedroom and I were kicked down to the sofa.
[long pause]
CB: So when you got to the squadron, what happened then?
KJ: Well not a lot of fuss made. All you, all you got at first, you did so many cross country’s to, with the aircraft affiliation also and bits thrown in to get used to what operational flying would be like. And then of course came the big day for the first op, and our first op was just after D-day and it was helping the Army. But they were so, the front lines were so close, we were given a signal to stop bombing, and I always remember it was “Billy Bunter” and we hadn’t bombed. We got to the target just ready to bomb, and this signal came. “Billy Bunter. Billy Bunter”, so we closed our bomb doors and changed back to go back home, but a lot of them kept bombing and the, the master bomber got fed up with them and he was really giving them a ticking off.
CB: For staying on.
KJ: For keep bombing.
CB: What was the target there?
KJ: Well, it were the enemy armoury. Tanks.
CB: Hitting Canadian troops were they?
KJ: Oh ours, yeah, a lot of ours were Canadian. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: No, I meant when the targets – they had, they had a friendly fire problem.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Was that why they stopped the bombing?
KJ: That’s right, yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Yeah, ‘cause when the two lines got too close, you couldn’t decide one from the other so. Aye.
[pause]
CB: What other, so in your first tour what other, what significant things happened there?
KJ: Well first tour, we were with the crowd, you know, with the main force, but our second tour, we carried the twelve thousand pound Tallboy bomb and it was chosen targets. The last one being Hitler’s guest house at Berchtesgaden.
CB: Right.
KJ: But he wasn’t there anyway so.
CB: Why were they bombing it then?
KJ: Well they didn’t know he weren’t. They thought he was there but apparently, he wasn’t when it —
CB: Still in Berlin.
KJ: Aye. In a bunker, underground bunker where he died anyway.
CB: So what significant events happened to you during the bombing raids? During the ops.
KJ: In what way do you mean?
CB: Well did you have any excitements or dangers? You got shot at a few times.
KJ: Oh we had some. I mean we got that time when aircraft above dropped his bombs on us.
CB: What happened there?
KJ: Three bombs hit us. One chopped off the starboard fin and rudder, one chopped off about five foot off the starboard wing, up to the starboard outer motor, and the third one hit the rear turret and took the rear turret away.
CB: And that’s why you needed a new rear gunner.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Did he get out?
KJ: Oh no. No. I’ve, I’ve been to his grave in Normandy.
CB: So this was a daylight operation was it?
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. I warned him about this, but the pilot says, ‘They’ll see us and they won’t drop them’, but almost as he said it, they were coming down on us.
CB: He couldn’t accelerate away.
KJ: No. He said, ‘There’s nothing I can do about it. We’re hemmed in’, so he just had to sit tight.
CB: So at night raids, you were in a stream. When you were bombing in daylight, how did you do that? Was it formation or still a stream?
KJ: Still a stream.
CB: Right.
KJ: You might get in a formation going backwards and forwards, but once you got near the target, you’re independent. You did as you want then.
CB: So without its turret, how did the plane behave? Rear turret.
KJ: Well we didn’t find any difference. In fact, he made a perfect landing when we got back, but it must have been, must have made a difference but he were a fantastic pilot so he dealt with it. When he got, when he got out the plane, his shirt was absolutely wet through. He must have fought it every inch of the way back.
CB: Because it had damaged the fin.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: One of them.
KJ: Well he’d only have part, part of his controls.
CB: And the wing. Which fin was hit?
KJ: Starboard fin.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And starboard wing.
CB: Oh it was, yeah.
KJ: So we were top heavy sort of thing.
CB: So you’re in the mid-upper turret.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: You’ve already warned the pilot about the plane above.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: What, what did you see when the bomb was coming down and the affect? How did this happen?
KJ: We’ll all I could see were these.
CB: A stick.
KJ: A full bomb bay full of bombs.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Coming down towards us and most of them slipping past on my left side.
CB: Right. You’re facing which way? Backwards?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Yeah. And I couldn’t help but see them because they were on top of me. It wasn’t a nice moment.
CB: So did some of them, they must have done, in a stick, some of them missed.
KJ: Yeah, quite a few of them went between the starboard wing.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And the starboard fin and rudder.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: More or less alongside me. Too close for comfort.
CB: So how much higher was this other plane?
KJ: It wasn’t too far above us because we were all supposed to be at the same height, but some used to go higher to avoid that happening to them, but the trouble is they did it to somebody else.
[pause]
CB: So you saw the bombs coming down.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: What, what was it like? Some were missing then. How many hit the turret?
KJ: There were three hit the aircraft.
CB: Right. Oh, three hit the aircraft. Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So one on the wing, one on the rudder.
KJ: And one on the rear turret.
CB: Yeah. So how did that come? That came straight down. Then how did you see it?
KJ: Well we got the, I’m getting mixed up with my starboard and, on the left hand side.
CB: On your left because you’re looking backwards.
KJ: They were all coming that side.
CB: Yes, the starboard side.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: And were you able to call out?
KJ: Well I did do, I warned him but he said, ‘Nothing I can do. We’re hemmed in’.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: So we just had to sit there and hope for the best.
CB: So where did the bomb, where did it hit the turret? The one that hit the turret, where?
KJ: Straight on top.
CB: Straight in the middle.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: And the effect of that?
KJ: Tore it away from –.
CB: The whole of the turret.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Right.
KJ: There was just a gaping hole where the rear turret should have been.
CB: So what chances of survival were there for the rear gunner?
KJ: Zero.
CB: Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: And they didn’t explode because the primer.
KJ: No you wouldn’t.
CB: Hadn’t gone into action then.
KJ: You’d got that little.
CB: The delay.
KJ: Propeller that unscrewed as it dropped down.
CB: Right.
KJ: But it wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be live until it was, say, a thousand feet.
CB: Right.
KJ: Above the ground and then it would slowly become alive.
CB: Right. So how many other members of the crew saw that?
KJ: Nobody apart from me.
CB: What effect did that have on you afterwards?
KJ: Well I were very, very upset because he were a friend of mine, the rear gunner.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: But I didn’t realise ‘till it were very late on in the war. We were coming back from a raid and it were a daylight, and as we crossed the Rhine, I saw these Typhoons going up and down and releasing rockets, and I’d never seen anything like that. At the gun emplacements along the Rhine. And I suddenly realised I was sweating and it were cold. There were no reason to be sweating, but that must have been nerves I should imagine.
CB: Yeah.
[pause]
CB: So after the raid did you, that particular one, where you lost your friend, did you fly the next day? Or was there –
KJ: Yeah. We were on ops the very next night, yeah.
CB: So was that better than having a rest or worse?
KJ: Well they told you it was for your own benefit if you —
CB: Yeah. Get up again.
KJ: So yeah, we were on another raid the following night.
CB: And how did that work for you?
KJ: It went pretty well really. A bit strange with getting a new voice from the rear turret but — [pause]. He were a farmer, he’d no need to be in the forces at all but he’d got two brothers that had adjoining farms, and they were looking after it for him.
CB: Which part of the country was that?
KJ: It was in the Midlands somewhere that they came from.
CB: Ok [pause], so apart from that one on the Rhine crossing, did you have any reaction on any other sorties?
KJ: Well er the Rhine, I didn’t know just how close it had come to that, but we got hit by shrapnel and one piece had gone through about two inches above my head, the top of my head and buried in the fuselage at the other side. The, one of the ground crew dug it out but he wouldn’t, I wanted him to give it to me but he wouldn’t. He hung on to it so —
CB: He wanted it did he?
KJ: Aye.
CB: Was it a bullet or shrapnel from flak?
KJ: Shrapnel from flak.
CB: Right.
KJ: A jagged piece about that.
CB: Yeah. About two inches, three inches.
KJ: It would have done enough damage anyway.
CB: Yeah. So when it hit your canopy, did it go through or did it shatter it?
KJ: It went through and then through the other side. The hole was pretty neat but there was a few cracks from it, you know.
CB: That was after the turret experience was it?
KJ: Yeah. We did, we did a tour and then instead of having a rest, we carried on with another tour.
CB: So those were both in the first tour.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Right. What caused you to do another go?
KJ: The pilot. He were a keen type and I wouldn’t have flown with anybody else if I could avoid it.
CB: That was 9 Squadron.
KJ: Yeah. He used to have his own way of taking off ‘til they stopped him doing it. They said, ‘We know you’re capable but somebody might try it and not be as successful as you’. You’re still, as we took off, he’d only just got airborne and he’d tilt over. It looked very spectacular from the ground but, well it looked spectacular from the gunner’s point of view as well, but he was warned off not to do it again.
CB: What did he do then? Bring the undercarriage up quickly or what?
KJ: Yeah. Quickly undercarriage up and he was already tilting his, er tilting the wing until it was, well it must have been pretty near the ground.
CB: He was turning his wing.
KJ: Anyway, he was ordered not to do it again.
CB: How did he feel about that?
KJ: Oh he took it all in good part. He were, he were a nice man was Harry Watkins.
CB: When you got your second rear gunner, because of the first one being lost, how did he get in with the crew or not?
KJ: Well he palled up straight. The engineer was a big drinker and so was this new gunner, so them two got on well together. I once counted that they had twenty two pints of beer.
CB: Each.
KJ: Each. They must have floated [laughs].
CB: Amazing. So how often did the crew go out together? These two clearly wanted to get ahead of the game.
KJ: When we were, if we were landing back at base very rare. If I wanted a drink, I’d have it in the sergeant’s mess but if you landed away from base, the officers could sub money from the officer’s funds so they’d sub so much money and treat us out for the night.
CB: How often did you find the pubs short of beer?
KJ: Did we find?
CB: The pubs short of beer. How often?
KJ: Oh, not very often, not very often [paused], but I used to like to stick to the sergeant’s mess.
CB: So how did you manage to keep in touch with Joan? Your future wife.
KJ: By mail, that were all, and get home as soon as soon, as often as possible. I used to, I were stationed quite close to Lincoln in both —
CB: In Bardney.
KJ: Both Bardney and Skellinghorpe.
CB: Skellingtorpe, yeah.
KJ: So it was an easy matter to get a train to Doncaster from them places. So if I’d got, if we weren’t flying that night, I’d take a chance on it and go home for the night. Only once did we nearly come adrift and that was, that was at Skellingthorpe, and from the bus stop to the camp was about a mile walk and all the way along, we could hear this tannoy saying myself and the engineer to report to the flights immediately. They’d come on an early morning raid they were going to do. Well they’d got reserves to go in our places, but the lad that were going to be the rear gunner, he said, ‘No. I’m not bothered. You go on’, so I got my raid in. But the engineer, this young man that were standing in for him had only got that one raid to finish his tour, so he said, ‘Oh no. I’m going on it’, so, but we both got the same punishment. Grounded for so many days and, not much like. A good telling off. It were a funny thing that, because the skipper always knew where we were, my home address, and he swore he’d sent a telegram but we never got it. So —
CB: That’s why you were late.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: So what did they do to you?
KJ: We got a reprimand and confined to barracks for so long.
CB: How did the leave system work? How often did you get leave?
KJ: Oh with aircrew we were very lucky. We got a week’s leave every six weeks and you got a week’s pay from —
CB: Nuffield Fund.
KJ: Nuffield, aye. He also, when we went on leave, he gave us a week’s pay as well so a very popular man.
[pause]
CB: So you finished with 50 Squadron and went to 9.
KJ: Finished with 61.
CB: Finished with 61 Squadron and went to 9.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: How was the process and operation different from your previous experience?
KJ: Not a lot different really but we’d done more ops than others. We were senior crew like, ‘cause we’d done more than all the others, but it didn’t take long for somebody to overtake us, so —
CB: So here, you’re doing precision bombing.
KJ: Oh yeah.
CB: Tallboy, twelve thousand pounder.
KJ: Yeah
CB: So how did you do your training for that?
KJ: Well they did, I know the bomb aimers did have, we used to take up the bomb aimers to do this practice bombing and there were certain regulations laid down how they should treat this Tallboy bomb. ‘Course the Tallboy, you had to have special bomb doors. Normal bomb doors wouldn’t close over a Tallboy.
CB: How were the, what were these like?
KJ: They’d, they were shaped. Instead of just going around, they come down so far and then bellied out a bit and then came back in, so you could tell there was something different about them, and then, when them that carried the twenty two thousand pounder, they didn’t have any bomb doors on at all.
CB: The Grand Slam.
KJ: The Grand Slam. They just had a chain holding it up but I never carried that. We were, we stuck to Tallboys.
CB: How often did you have to, how often did you fail to drop the Tallboys or did you always drop them?
KJ: Well if we couldn’t be sure of the target, we’d orders to bring it back. Sometimes they changed their mind if conditions weren’t good and that, but as a rule, we brought them back because they cost so much to produce.
CB: And how did you feel about landing with such a heavy load on?
KJ: Well at first very tedious, very timid, but you got used to it like everything else.
CB: Your pilot was a good one so —
KJ: Oh a fantastic man, yeah.
CB: What sort of targets were you going for then?
KJ: With the Tallboy, they were chosen targets like dams or them viaducts.
CB: The U-Boat. Oh right.
KJ: And that type of thing. Things that you could knock down.
CB: So the Bielefeld Viaduct was brought down by a Grand Slam. Did you drop that?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Did that, was 9 Squadron involved in that?
KJ: Yeah. Always two squadrons. At first 617, like on the dam raid, there were only them.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: But subsequent raids they were losing more and more men, so they decided to lighten the load by putting two squadrons on these special targets rather than one, and the other squadron was Number 9, so it meant that 617 didn’t have to take it all.
CB: And how many ops did you do on your second tour?
KJ: Fifteen.
CB: And what, why did those stop?
KJ: Well, the war ended.
CB: It was the end of the war.
KJ: Yeah, thirty was a tour.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Well we did a tour but then we carried, agreed to carry straight on and we just carried on till the end of the war then, and the very last raid was Hitler’s guest house at Berchtesgaden.
[pause]
CB: So the war is over, now what did you do?
KJ: Well, they, they were getting ready to go to the Far East to carry the war to Japan, so I thought, well, I’ve done forty five ops, I’ve done my share. It wouldn’t be fair to the wife to carry on so I dropped out the race. But they never got there anyway, the war ended before they, they got to that point, so that was it.
CB: So the end of the war in Europe was the 8th of May, August was VJ day, so you were still in the RAF after that.
KJ: Oh yeah.
CB: What was going on? What were you doing then?
KJ: Well we were doing more or less the same things for so long, for about a year, and then we were put on ground staff jobs, and I got put on, well it were my choice, on driving. They were cook or drivers and I didn’t fancy cooking. I might have poisoned them all.
CB: Very likely. No, no, no. And what was, what determined the date of your demob?
KJ: It went on how old you were mainly ‘cause, and there was, the RAF for some reason was being held back ‘til last. So the Army and the Navy were getting demobbed, demobbed ahead of us but eventually the day came. But in that time, I’d been sent to Egypt and I was in charge of a lorry place which had forty five lorries, and I had to find loads for them going backwards and forwards. So, but eventually the day came when we came home [pause], and it was just a case of landing in Liverpool, going into this big hangar, big hangar and throwing my RAF kit into that, and walking out in a new suit. We got rigged out with civilian clothes.
CB: Right. What did they give you in civilian clothes?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: What did they give you?
KJ: A suit, shirt, tie, hat - which I never wore. I never wore a hat. The only time I wore a hat were in the RAF. And socks and shoes, the whole bag of tricks.
CB: So you came out of the RAF. Then what did you do?
KJ: Well my father had a little foundry and I went to work for him, but I did join the Observer Corps and I did another couple of years, part time of course, in the Observer Corps. We used to have exercises, mostly at weekends and we had a place out at Brampton.
CB: At Brampton.
KJ: Aye.
CB: Near Huntingdon.
KJ: Pardon?
CB: Brampton near Huntingdon [pause]. Where?
KJ: I thought it were Brampton. It was near Finningley.
CB: Ah.
KJ: Back side of Finningley. Actually we were in some gardens.
CB: Right.
KJ: There were like a hut there with a all glass top.
CB: Right.
KJ: So as you could see aircraft, and for a while it were interesting, ‘cause we did, we’d go on a weekend and we’d have to spot and record every aircraft we saw flying over. But then it got to nuclear business and the idea was you’d go out if there were a nuclear warning. We’d have to go out to the shelter and stay there till you got the all clear, but you were leaving your family behind. I said, ‘No. No. That’s not for me. If I go, we all go’, so I packed it in.
CB: In the Observer Corps, you were being paid as an employee were you?
KJ: In the Observer Corps? No. No, it were voluntary.
CB: So what was your job at the time?
KJ: I was working at er mining.
CB: In your father’s foundry.
KJ: Mining supplies. Engineering.
CB: Right. So you joined father’s foundry company.
KJ: Aye but –
CB: Then you changed from that.
KJ: I went to work for International Harvesters.
CB: Right. Oh right.
KJ: And learned more about machines, so I stayed at the Harvesters some years then. Twelve years I think.
CB: Did you? Right.
KJ: Aye, ‘cause my dad’s place – my mother was taken seriously ill. She died of cancer and my dad’s place had really gone to ruins. There was nobody knew how to run it like he did and he was at home all the time nursing mum, so I worked for Harvesters then for twelve year.
CB: And then what did you do? Did you do something after that?
KJ: I finished up at mining supplies.
CB: Right.
[phone ringing]
CB: We’ll stop it a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: Where were the mining supplies? That was in Doncaster?
KJ: Carr Hill, yeah.
CB: In Carr Hill, yeah. And what were you doing there?
KJ: Engineering, running the machine.
CB: Oh right.
KJ: It was the, oh what did they call them?
CB: Milling.
KJ: Yeah. They were [pause]. Oh what did they call them? The machines that you put a programme in, and they —
CB: Yeah. CCN. Yeah
KJ: Yeah. So —
CB: CNC. CNC.
KJ: A lot of the young ones that were working there didn’t want to know, so I said I’d have a go at it, so I was taught how to run this machine and it fell in just natural, and that’s how I finished up working.
CB: How long were you with that one?
KJ: Oh a good, good, right to, after the war. I should say twelve, twelve years again.
CB: Right, and that brought you to retirement did it?
KJ: Yeah. Well I worked a long time after my retirement but eventually I had.
CB: Had to retire.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Right. I’m just going to pause.
[Recording paused]
CB: Right. So what would you say was the most memorable event in your time in the RAF?
KJ: I think obviously it would be I mean we’ve had some shaky dos as we used to call them, when we were being hit by flak and all that sort of thing, chased by fighters, but the worst experience was when we had the bombs dropped on us.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And we lost our rear gunner.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: That was the most memorable thing.
CB: Traumatic.
KJ: Traumatic, that’s a better word yeah. Yeah.
CB: Out of interest, what did the Air Force do about a memorial service after that? Did they do anything?
KJ: No.
CB: No, because it was just run of the mill.
KJ: That’s it, yeah, it was a risk you took.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: That were their thinking, yeah. I’ve been to, you know, the Spire in Lincoln.
CB: Yes.
KJ: Well I’ve been to that, and all the names of those that got killed are all on brass plaques around the Memorial, and where we used to call him Jack Foy, ‘cause his name was Carson Jack Foy, and if I stand up again at this particular plaque, his name just appears above my head.
CB: Does it really.
KJ: Aye.
CB: ‘Cause he’s one of the ones of the twenty six thousand two hundred in the rolls of honour. The three.
KJ: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: The three volumes.
KJ: His mother lost two sons within [pause] within a month anyway.
CB: Really.
KJ: We lost Jack and then a few days after it was D-day and his brother was in the Canadian Army and he was killed on D-day.
CB: Right.
KJ: So she lost two sons.
CB: Heartbreaking.
KJ: I used to write to his sister but I know, but, one time I weren’t well and I left it, and I thought oh it’s, I’ll leave it now so I didn’t bother after that.
CB: We didn’t really talk about the number of times you were actually attacked by fighters and your response to that in defence of the aircraft.
KJ: I should say at least a half a dozen times, and it depended which gunner spotted them first, because he would take over as the [pause], tell the skipper to go into a corkscrew, so you’d shout, ‘Corkscrew left. Corkscrew left. Go’, and off you would go.
CB: And everybody then held on.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: How many did you shoot down between you?
KJ: We only, we only claimed one but —
CB: Was that yours?
KJ: We, there were a few we discouraged shall we say.
CB: Yes. Did the, did the one you shot down, was that yours or was it Carson’s?
KJ: Well I said it was the rear gunner’s because he got better shots at it. I were only getting it as it whizzed by. Just get in front and blaze away and hope for the best, but the rear gunner was watching it from the time it started to come at us.
CB: What was it?
KJ: An ME109.
CB: Right. In the dark?
KJ: Yeah, it was dark. Yeah. We got chased with a ME101.
CB: 110.
KJ: 110. 110. But it were cloudy that day and we kept dodging into the clouds and losing him.
CB: Right.
KJ: But he persevered for a hell of a time. Every time we come out of the cloud, he were there.
CB: Yeah, because he’d got radar hadn’t he?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Yeah. Course we didn’t know that at that time.
CB: Was it possible for the mid-upper and the rear gunner to engage the target at the same time?
KJ: Oh yeah, yeah, no problem there. The rear turret as you were, you went on a duckboard from the, well it was the toilet there.
CB: At the back.
KJ: At the back, and from there to the turret, you’d got like a runway, thick plywood, and you walked along that to get into the rear turret. Well from there, right up to under my turret, the rear gunners had got four, well two each side, four rows of cartridges going on a conveyer belt.
CB: Twenty seven feet of them.
KJ: Pardon?
CB: Nine yards. Twenty seven feet.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Yeah, and mine were just in canisters either side of the guns.
CB: Right.
CB: So —
KJ: On the wall or on the floor?
CB: On the [pause] up, up same height as myself.
KJ: Right.
CB: So how many? You had obviously many less rounds. How many rounds did you have?
KJ: There were just a minute’s firing. One thousand something on each gun.
CB: Oh right.
KJ: So, but I mean the rear turret could go on for ages.
CB: How many rounds did the, that’s a lot of rounds on there stretched on the floor.
KJ: Oh yeah.
CB: For the rear gunner.
KJ: Yeah, yeah, coming right back from the rear turret to my turret and back again. Yeah, it was [pause] well it was about half way up the aircraft from the rear turret. Yeah. He’d a hell of a lot of cartridges, and you had incendiary bullets so you could see where you were, where your bullets were going.
CB: Tracer.
KJ: Tracer bullets.
CB: They were, they weren’t all tracer.
KJ: No.
CB: So it was, was one in how many?
KJ: One in every five, I think.
CB: Right.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: You needed that in the dark.
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. Then later on some of the rear turrets got .5s.
CB: Right at the end.
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Just 2.5s. Yeah.
KJ: Two instead of four 303s, yeah.
CB: So how did you feel about your reduced fire power of only two guns in the mid-upper?
KJ: Well you’d have been happier with more, but you just had to make do. I mean the rear, rear gunner had got a lot more fire power than you.
CB: When you were zeroing in on the attacking fighter, which part of the fighter would you actually be aiming to hit?
KJ: Well the easiest way was get in front of him and fire and let him come through your hail of bullets.
CB: Right.
KJ: But they had a laid down plan. You’d got the gun sight which was about that big. A circle.
CB: Right.
KJ: With a dot in the middle.
CB: Three inches.
KJ: And you were supposed, at different points, when you were in the corkscrew, trying to escape, different points where you were supposed to put your gun, aim you gun, but it was impossible.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: I mean, one minute you were head were in the top.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: The next minute it felt as though somebody had put a tonne weight on your shoulders. So a lot of it was using your own judgement.
CB: The final question on this is, you and the rear gunner are in a section that is completely unheated.
KJ: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: So how did you feel during the flight?
KJ: Well we were issued with heated suits but the trouble was, nine times out of every ten, they weren’t tended for and one minute they were too hot and the next, when you turned them off they were too cold. So they weren’t a lot of good to be quite honest, but you had an electrically heated suit and then an overall suit over the top of that.
CB: There were two circuits were there in the heated suit? One each side.
KJ: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So did they always both work?
KJ: Oh some of them failed. Some of them had got, they were, they got that hot, within minutes you had to take them off. You couldn’t stand that. It were better to not get used to it.
CB: So what sort of lengths were the flights? They varied but, to the target but what length in hours was a typical flight.
KJ: I should say on an average about six, seven hours but I’ve done some up to twelve hours.
CB: What that would be? The longest ones.
KJ: Stettin.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Would be one of the longest ones. Right up in, well it were Russia at that time.
CB: Right out on the Baltic coast.
KJ: Yeah, that’s right.
CB: Did you, because you were getting to the end of the war, but you didn’t have, the Tallboy wasn’t used so you weren’t on the, some of the later raids to the cities.
KJ: No. Although I did Tallboy raids.
CB: Yes.
KJ: Some, some of my raids we carried the Tallboy.
CB: Yeah.
KJ: But a lot of it was, at the beginning in particular, you were going for German cities and you’d drop incendiaries and then the bangers after that, if you call them that. But you lit the target up with incendiaries first.
CB: But the four thousand pounder.
KJ: Yeah. Strangely enough, a lot of aircrew didn’t trust them. They were, they were very touchy if they got disturbed. They were likely to go off.
CB: Really.
KJ: After say, an hour, because they got an hour’s timing on them and probably when they’d been put up under, in to the bomb bays, somebody might catch them and that started the timing off.
CB: Oh.
KJ: But you didn’t know but you’d, after an hour, as you were crossing the channel, you’d see suddenly one in front of you blow up.
CB: And that was why was it?
KJ: That were why. Yeah. Yes very —
CB: What did they have in them then, that made them so sensitive?
KJ: Well it was the timer.
CB: I meant the explosives. It was a combination was it? Explosives and incendiary?
KJ: Yeah.
CB: Was it?
KJ: No. High explosive bombs. No, I don’t think the incendiaries were as much to worry about.
CB: So you’re dropping Tallboys, and how accurate would you say you were doing that?
KJ: Well you’d got to be accurate because anybody that got outside the aiming point would get a real telling off. The bomb aimer would get, and of course the pilot wouldn’t be very pleased, so he’d put his two penneth in as well.
CB: And how well could you see the effect of those?
KJ: Oh on some raids you could see every bomb that dropped. See it hit the ground and see the explosion and everything, but, ‘cause the, with the Tallboy, when it hit the ground you’d get like throwing a pebble in water. You’d get them rings come up but they were pressure rings instead of —
CB: Yeah.
KJ: And if you got, if you were below eight thousand feet, they’d throw you all over the place if you got in that.
CB: Oh really.
CB: Oh yeah.
KJ: Yeah. Aye, ‘cause if we were dropping them, the rest of the force were told not to drop less than, not to go below eight thousand feet.
CB: But they didn’t explode on impact because they were designed for penetration weren’t they?
KJ: That’s right.
CB: So there was a delay?
KJ: Yeah. They’d an armour plating nose which buried in to the ground and then depending on the delay fuse, would depend on that when they went off.
CB: Now one of the targets for some time was U-boat pens. How well did they work on those?
KJ: With, I know we did U-boat, U-boat pens at Bergen in Norway and we’d got one hour timers on and they went through the top of the pen and they were half in the pen and the Germans thought they were duds but —
CB: Right.
KJ: On the hour they found out they weren’t.
CB: Right, but the hour delay was designed to get maximum effect of casualty.
KJ: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I say, they thought they were duds and by the time they found out they weren’t, it were too late.
CB: Viaducts. So you talked about those.
KJ: Pardon?
CB: With viaducts, were they effective on those?
KJ: Yeah. Oh yeah, because they used to bury under the, underneath and that caused them to crumble over.
CB: So how did you feel about it after you’d been on a raid?
KJ: [Laughs] Thankful that we’d come back. Yeah.
CB: I was thinking about your reaction to the result of your bombing.
KJ: Oh well, we were always pleased to see we, we’d made a mess of where we were bombing.
CB: Because unlike a normal raid, there wouldn’t be lots of smoke.
KJ: No. No. No.
CB: It would be clear cut, wouldn’t it? What you’d done.
KJ: Yeah. Yeah. As soon as a Tallboy hit the ground, you got those —
CB: Yeah.
KJ: Rings coming up.
CB: Shockwaves, yeah. And what about Grand Slams? Did you drop those as well?
KJ: We didn’t, no, there were only six. I think only three aircraft on 617 that were altered to carry them.
CB: Right.
KJ: Because they had no bomb doors on them.
CB: No.
KJ: Just they just went up, ‘cause the first time I saw them, I couldn’t believe my eyes. This damned great thing slung under an aircraft and no bomb doors. Aye.
CB: Did you do joint raids with 617, or were they all done separately?
KJ: No, the second tour, we were always with them, but the first tour was with general.
CB: Yeah, general bombing.
KJ: Bombing, yeah.
CB: Right. Thank you very much.
KJ: It’s a pleasure.
[Recording paused]
CB: Just one other thing, on the Tirpitz raids then, what happened there?
KJ: Well, they took the mid-upper turrets out altogether to lighten the load they were carrying, and they had a, they had a bigger bomb on, the twelve thousand pound bomb. But they were, they were special made bomb doors, they weren’t completely round, they’d got a dimple in them to go around the shape of the bomb.
CB: Right.
KJ: And every one of them bombs was turned in either Sheffield or Scotland, there were only two lathes big enough to do them. That’s why if we weren’t certain of the target, we had to bring them back.
CB: Expensive and scarce.
KJ: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Johnson. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-03
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJohnsonKA170403
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:39:45 audio recording
Description
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Ken Johnson was born in Doncaster. At the start of the war the family was living in Sheffield but his father decided they should move back to Doncaster to avoid bombing. Ken started work as a joiner and later made cables for barrage balloons. Despite being in a reserved occupation, he volunteered to join the RAF and trained in Scotland as an air gunner. He describes gunnery practice against towed targets and corkscrewing the aircraft. He formed a crew in the Operational Training Unit at RAF Bruntingthorpe. He talks about his pilot, Flight Sergeant Harold “Harry” Watkins, who fought in the Finnish Army against the Russians at the start of the war. Ken joined 61 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe flying Lancasters. His first operation was just after D-Day to bomb German armour but as they were too close to allied troops, it was aborted. Ken’s most traumatic experience was during an operation in July 1944, when an aircraft above his dropped its bombs and three bombs hit the aircraft including the rear turret, carrying it away with the rear gunner. On another occasion, anti-aircraft shrapnel missed Ken’s head by two inches. After completing a tour of thirty operations, most of Ken’s crew volunteered for a second tour. Transferred to 9 Squadron, many of his fifteen operations involved dropping the 12,000 lb Tallboy bomb. Ken describes the differences between the rear and mid-upper turrets including their armament. After the war, he served as an RAF driver in Egypt before being demobilised and returning to civilian life. He volunteered with the Royal Observer Corps for a couple of years.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Vivienne Tincombe
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
61 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb struck
Lancaster
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bardney
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Dalcross
RAF Skellingthorpe
service vehicle
Tallboy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/551/8815/PLancasterJ1501.2.jpg
794d475655253509adf90821a41de268
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/551/8815/ALancasterJO170308.1.mp3
0854aad26e9a380b5f2a5cc40af42a9a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lancaster, Jo
John Oliver Lancaster
J O Lancaster
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Lancaster, JO
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with John Oliver 'Jo' Lancaster DFC (1919 - 2019, 948392, 103509 Royal Air Force), photographs and six of his log books. Jo Lancaster completed 54 operations as a pilot with in Wellingtons with 40 Squadron, and after a period of instructing, in Lancasters with 12 Squadron from RAF Wickenby. He became test pilot after the war and was the first person to use a Martin-Baker ejection seat in an emergency.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jo Lancaster and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-18
2017-03-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 8th of March 2017 and I’m in Hassocks with John Lancaster. Jo Lancaster. To talk about his long career in the RAF and as a test pilot afterwards. So, Jo, what are the earliest recollections of life that you have in the family?
JL: I was born in Penrith in Cumberland. In the Lake District. I was very lucky really. I didn’t realise it much at the time. And my first ideas of aeroplanes were drawn entirely from, from books. They were very rarely seen over Cumberland. If they were they were just a spot in the sky making a humming noise but I became very interested in aeroplanes and made models out of the rough materials I could find to hand. I eventually had a flying model with an elastic band which gave me great, great fun but I never actually saw an aeroplane close to until I was about aged sixteen when a Gypsy Moth made a landing due to bad weather in the, in the area. I left school in 1935 aged sixteen and it was during that summer that Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus visited Penrith and I had my first flight in an Avro 504. I remember that well. There was a bench seat going forward and aft of the rear cockpit on which you sat astride and a young lady who I didn’t know was my co-passenger and she just put her head down in the cockpit and screamed throughout the whole flight. [laughs] But I thoroughly enjoyed it. I could see the engine with the tapits, with the bells going up and down. The exposed bells. And it was on that flight that the pilot had a piece of piano wire on the wing tip and picked up bits of cloth from the ground with it. I was completely bitten by flying then but there was little chance of it in the, in the near future. I left school at sixteen and I didn’t want to go to university. In point of fact I couldn’t really because my father’s business had a bad time during the recession and there wasn’t any money left in the kitty but I didn’t mind that. I didn’t want to go to university. I wanted to go out and get amongst mechanical things and an aircraft apprenticeship seemed to be the answer. We considered the RAF apprenticeship scheme, I forget where now. Henlow. Not Henlow.
CB: Halton.
JL: Halton. Considered the RAF apprenticeship scheme at Halton but I wanted to be in the start of the aeroplane flight and not, not the sort of maintenance of it and so I, somehow or other, got a list of aircraft manufacturers in Britain who were offering apprenticeships. Some of them wanted premiums so that put them out but Armstrong Whitworth sounded the best and in due course my father accompanied me down to Coventry for an interview. And I was accepted and joined Armstrong Whitworth in October 1935 starting a five year apprenticeship. The apprenticeship was very good. We had pay and we had one morning and one afternoon off paid time for, to attend the local technical college. [Cough] Can we have a pause?
CB: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: So you’re at Coventry.
JL: The apprenticeship.
CB: And you’re just on the apprenticeship.
JL: Yes. When I — I went down to Coventry to take up my apprenticeship having negotiated some digs through the local paper. I didn’t like the digs we had, I had but [pause - interference] but when I first started there [I feel sure?] it was at the airfield at Wheatley, an old World War One airfield with still the original hangars. I first of all went to, as a stop-gap to the final assembly unit where they were building Hawker Hart trainers. I found everybody very very friendly and one of the almost time expired apprentices, expired apprentices asked me about my digs and I said I didn’t like them and he said there was a vacancy at his digs so I was very glad to go there and I, I was there for over three years. Nearly four years in fact. In, in the original interview it was, it was stressed that there would be no flying involved in the apprenticeship but I had ideas that I would join the, what was then the RAF Class F Reserve which operated very similarly to the Territorial Army. Consisted mostly of a two week summer camp. But on reaching the age of eighteen that coincided with the start of the RAF Volunteer Reserve and I joined straight away and followed that up with the full time ab initio training course at Sywell in July of 1937. Having done that I went back to, to my apprenticeship of course and attended the local RAF, [pause] oh dear. Elementary Reserve Training School at Ansty. That was local to Coventry. During the day, during the weekdays the instructors there were instructing a course of short service, short service commission pilots and at evenings or other times when convenient as at weekends they were training the volunteer reservists. There instead of Tiger Moths as at Sywell we had Avro Cadets with Armstrong Siddeley Genet engines and I converted on to Cadets and then converted on to Hawker Harts. When I was still eighteen I was flying solo on Hawker Harts which was a beautiful aeroplane.
[pause]
JL: I don’t know how to continue.
CB: We’ll stop just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: You mentioned digs. People don’t seem to have digs now so what were they and how did it work?
JL: Well my first digs, which were arranged through the local, by post through the local paper, when I got there I didn’t know the people. I didn’t care for them very much. I was there for really just over a week I think and I was happy to leave when my new acquaintance apprentice, Tony Carpenter suggested I join him in his digs. There I was with a family, or we were with a family. Mrs Hinder who was a widow, widow of a parson and her two children Ruby and Percy. So there were five of us in the house and Mrs Hinder provided us with breakfast, a packed lunch, an evening meal five days a week and breakfast and all the other meals during the weekend at the princely sum of twenty five shillings a week.
CB: Brilliant. Yes. And what about your washing?
JL: I can’t remember. I didn’t do it. They must. It probably went to, I don’t know. I don’t suppose she did it. I don’t remember.
CB: What sort of hours did you work in those days?
JL: We had to be there at 8 o’clock in the morning. We had a half hour’s break for lunch and left at 5 o’clock four days of the week and half past five on Thursdays. And Saturday morning it was 8 o’clock till twelve [cough] I shall have to go and get another drink.
CB: Ok.
[Recording paused]
CB: That’s really useful so when we have the time to talk about the apprenticeship how did the apprenticeship work?
JL: Well as I said I actually started in final assembly but I was only there a couple of weeks. That was a stop-gap and then I was moved to what they called a detailed fitting shop where all the various parts of the aircraft were made using hand tools. And I was there for probably nine months and then I moved to the milling machine shop. Learned how to work a milling machine and then moved on from that to working a, working on a lathe. Learned all about lathe work. Then I went to sub-assembly where units of the aircraft were assembled. The aircraft going through at this time was the Whitley. And then eventually I went on to, moved up to Baginton. The new airfield and the new factory on final assembly and I was there until the — when the war started. I was, I was held back until I joined the — the RAF decided to have me back in January 1940. But I wasn’t actually called up until June of 1940. Incidentally there was a rather amusing episode in May of 1939. Shortly before the war. Everybody knew the war was coming. They had to re-introduce conscription and I was a bullseye for the first age group and I had to go and have an interview with a little [petrie?] army major so I lost no time in telling him I didn’t want to join his army and I was a trained engineer and a trained pilot and he said, ‘Well you’ll be, you’ll be a dead cert for the Royal Army Ordinance Corps.’ And why he said that and not the Royal Engineers I don’t know. But anyway the war started and in no time at all I received a letter containing a traveling warrant to Budbrooke Barracks and a postal order for the four shillings in advance of pay to join the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
CB: Oh.
JL: So I dashed down to, and by this time they had a combined recruiting centre in Coventry. They’d taken over a skating rink, a roller skating rink. And the air force recruiting officer was no help at all but the naval recruiting officer was a Chief Petty Officer Brown and I went and told him my problem and he said, ‘Well we’ll get you out of that,’ and he took me on for the navy on, on deferred service. So I then got a letter saying please return the travelling warrant and postal order. You need not now apply, attend Budbrooke Barracks. So whilst, whilst I was on deferred service for the navy the RAF changed their mind and decided to have me back and, but I didn’t actually re-join until about June of 1940 starting with a six weeks course at ITW Initial Training Wing at Paignton in Devon. And then we were all disbursed to [pause] God. [pause] Sorry, this is my brain. [pause]
CB: From ITW you went to Initial Training Wing.
JL: Well it was Flying Training School.
CB: Yes but at Sywell again.
JL: The first one was Sywell.
CB: Yes.
JL: But this time, after the war started it was Desford near Leicester
CB: Oh yes.
WT: Yes. Desford. Yes.
JO: Yes. Yes. We were, we were all divided up. I went, I went to Desford with some others. During the, during this ab initio course the Battle of Britain was in full swing and of course we all wanted to be fighter pilots and I was in fact selected to be a fighter pilot and sent to number five elementary flying, 5 Flying Training School at Sealand which had Miles Masters and there I was going to be a fighter pilot. I trained on Miles Masters. Later — later in the — we were down, we moved from Sealand down to Ternhill in Shropshire and continued training there but the, during the winter ‘40/41 it was very bad. The training — some of us got well behind and I was on a course of about forty eight divided into four flights of twelve and our flight was the only one, was the only one who succeeded in doing the night flying part of the syllabus on Masters and at the end of the course the whole flight was posted to bomber OTUs whilst the rest went to fighters. And I went to Lossiemouth, 20 OTU as I remember and was converted on to Wellingtons. I was very cross about this at the time but in the event I think it was the right thing to do. When I got to Lossiemouth we were next door to [pause] oh dear [pause] sorry. A Whitley OTU.
WT: Wycombe?
JL: Hmmn?
WT: Wycombe
JL: No. A Whitley OTU up in Scotland. Oh God. I’m sorry.
CB: Was it on, was it a coastal OTU or was it a Bomber Command OTU?
JL: It was a bombing.
CB: Whitleys. Yes.
JL: I was at Lossiemouth converting on to Wellingtons.
CB: Yes.
JL: At 20 OTU.
CB: Yes.
JL: And there was another OTU only about ten miles away with Whitleys. It was well known. It’s still open.
CB: Yes. Kinloss.
JL: Kinloss. Yes.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
JL: Sorry. Thank you.
CB: It’s ok.
JL: I got an interview with the group captain of Lossiemouth called Group Captain Smyth-Piggott and told him that I had been building Whitleys and knew all about them and that I’d like to convert. To transfer to Whitleys. And he wouldn’t have it so I was stuck with Wellingtons. And so we were paired off as pilots with first and second pilot. I was the first pilot and my second pilot was Derek Townsend and having done our conversion training we then had to be crewed up and we were all ushered into a hangar with the right proportions of pilots, navigators, wireless operators and air gunners. And Derek and I wandered around looking at people we’d never seen before and we eventually finished up with a Canadian navigator Glen Leach, a very Welsh wireless operator called Jack Crowther, another Canadian front gunner and a New Zealand rear gunner. Now, at that time I’d never met a Canadian before and I was just, I was surprised they spoke like people we saw in the cinema. But I hardly knew where New Zealand was. Anyway, we went down to that, to the pub in Lossiemouth that night and we were blood brothers from then for the rest of our lives.
[pause]
CB: Right. Stop there for a mo.
[Recording paused]
JL: What had happened.
CB: At Desford. Yeah.
JL: At Desford. We did a — went off and did a flight. When we landed he said, ‘You haven’t forgotten how to fly.’
CB: But you still had to go through.
JL: I still had to do the whole thing through.
CB: The whole thing.
JL: Yes.
CB: Because that’s the way the process ran. Can we just go back to your VR time because you might have continued with that but how long were you in the VR, flying and what caused you to cease?
JL: Well I as I say I was being converted on to — [pause] Oh God.
CB: On to the Hart. Yeah.
JL: Cadets.
CB: Oh the Cadet. Yes.
JL: And Harts. I was flying Harts at a very tender age and I was the ace. I thought I was the ace of the base. And one Sunday after a very bad period of weather where there was no flying we had a very fine Sunday morning in April 1938 and I dashed out to Ansty. There were no Harts available but I was given a, alloted a Cadet to go and do aerobatics and off I went. There was something wrong with the engine actually. It tended to choke and had to be re-started. I wasn’t even bothered with that. I went off and I did some aerobatics. I got doing a slow roll. There was a fire extinguisher under the dashboard and the instrument panel and on the final turn with full top rudder the fire extinguisher fell out and got behind the rudder bar so when I got right way up I got a whole lot of left rudder on. I managed to sort of kick it halfway through the fabric so that I could get steering rudder and instead of going back to Ansty as I should have done I became insane and landed at Wheatley. Well it was a Sunday so there was only a sort of a maintenance man there. When he walked up I gave him the fire extinguisher and took off again. And then, then I, my fellow digs chap, Tony Carpenter, he couldn’t join the VR because of his eyesight but he bought all sort of what we would call a microlight called a dart splitter mouse and he had it at a field near Kenilworth and I then went over to him and did a few aerobatics there. Then I did what was actually a perfectly legal exercise. A simulated forced landing where you from two thousand feet or whatever you throttle the engine back and did an approach on to a suitable field, opened it up and go around again at the end. I did what the, I opened up and the engines stopped and I went through a hedge so that’s rather spoiled things and I was thrown out. You’ll find it in there.
WT: Gosh.
JL: I wasn’t thrown out for going through the hedge. I was thrown out for doing low level aerobatics.
CB: Ah
JL: That was because very very close by was Kenilworth Golf Club and playing golf that morning was a chap called Tom Chapman who was a director of Armstrong Siddeley’s who was hand in glove with Armstrong Whitworth’s and he, he reported it. [laughs] Tom Chapman. Bless his heart.
CB: You never became friends.
JL: I never met him.
[pause]
CB: Right. So we’ve got to the stage that you’re at Lossiemouth and you’ve crewed up. This crewing up — could you just explain how it actually happened? The process.
JL: Well Derek and I just wandered around looking at people’s brevets and we got together a navigator. We found this Canadian with a, he had the O brevet.
CB: Yeah.
JL: He was very proud of that. The Observer. Asked him and he came along and we continued the process till we got the full crew. And we all, we all agreed to meet in the pub that night and we were thick as thieves from that time on.
CB: So how long were you together for?
JL: Well from Lossiemouth, when we were crewed up we did a number of cross country exercises [cough] oh dear. To finish the course. Air firing and practice bombing and then we were posted as a crew to 40 Squadron at Wyton. So we all went off on leave and we all arrived at Wyton on the appointed day only to be told that we weren’t supposed to be at Wyton. We were supposed to be at Alconbury. The satellite. And so we got a service bus from Wyton to Alconbury and signed in there and we were promptly all put on a charge for arriving late. And we were, what are the — ? [pause] I forget the expression was. The lowest. The lowest telling off. So that wasn’t a very good start because we didn’t like the WingCo much anyway. He wasn’t a very popular chap. A [jock?]. Wing Commander Davey. Anyway, we were, then Derek, Derek left us to join another crew and we were given a captain in the form of a Jim Taylor who — he’d already done a lot of ops and he took us on our first eight ops and then he left us. He was, he was screened and I took over as captain and we were given a series of second pilots from then on. And we succeeded in surviving thirty operations including a daylight on Brest. And then we, then we all split up.
CB: So this is in a Wellington.
JL: Yes. And I was posted to a Wellington OTU as a, as an instructor [coughs] oh dear. I’m sorry about this.
CB: Ok. Would you like to stop for a mo?
[Recording paused]
CB: So can we just talk about the tour? The aircraft was a Wellington. Which model?
JL: Yes. Throughout this period all my flying was on Wellington 1Cs which was powered by Bristol Pegasus Mark xviii and with these it was very very underpowered. It was supposed to be able to fly on one engine but in fact it couldn’t because it had non-feathering propellers.
CB: Oh.
JL: Fortunately the engines were fairly reliable. The most common problem would be that one of the rocker boxes would break loose from the cylinder head which introduced, which put that cylinder out of use and caused it to be, to vibrate rather a lot. That happened from time to time. But at least you had the use of most of the engine.
CB: So you couldn’t really feather. You couldn’t feather the prop.
JL: No. No.
CB: So you kept it running did you or you stopped it? The drag was huge.
JL: Well if you lost the engine it just, just windmilled.
CB: Yeah. Right.
JL: Caused a lot of drag.
CB: So of the ops, one of them was to Brest. What was that like?
JL: There was one occasion when we went off. Actually it was fortunately in daylight and when we got up to about seventeen hundred feet and the oil, the oil pressure on one engine dropped to zero. I looked out and there was oil all over the engine but fortunately we were just within a mile or so of Wyton and I was able to drop straight down and land in Wyton complete with a full load of petrol and bombs. But had, had it been dark the situation would have been very different. It was too late to bale out and we had a full load of bombs and it was dark.
CB: In circumstances where you’re still, you’ve still got your full load of bombs what was the proper procedure?
JL: Sorry?
CB: In the circumstances where there was difficulty with the aircraft and you had a full load of bombs what was the proper procedure as far as the bomb load was concerned? Were you supposed to jettison or keep them?
JL: Well normally only jettison over the sea.
CB: Right.
JL: But of course you had to be in full control of the aircraft. If you lost an engine and you weren’t able to, to maintain flight you’d probably leave them where they were.
CB: So thinking of the rest of the tour how did the ops go on that? You had a bit of variety. They were all at night were they?
JL: All except one. The 24th of July 1941 there was a major daylight operation on Brest in which we were involved. The squadron sent six aircraft in two lots of three. The other three lost, lost one aircraft in a direct hit but our three all survived. Knocked about but still working.
CB: So the other one was lost to flak.
JL: Yes.
CB: What operating height were you using then?
JL: Twelve and a half thousand feet.
CB: And what bomb load were you carrying?
JL: Probably five. I can’t tell you. I didn’t record these. Probably five hundred pound armour piercing but it was all a waste of time as I discovered later. Much later. I visited Lorient after the war and went and saw the U-boat pens there and none of our bombs would ever do anything to them. They had a huge roof about two metres thick and then a false roof on top of that. You could see where bombs had hit it. There was just a little pock mark. That’s all. We were all wasting our time. I don’t know what our intelligence people were doing. Thinking about.
CB: So for the other ops then. These were at night. Where? Where were they going? Where were the targets?
JL: Mostly in Germany but we did one to [pause] oh Christ, I’m sorry.
CB: Was it a port?
JL: On the Baltic.
CB: Right. Kiel or Wilhelmshaven. Bremen.
JL: Further east.
CB: Ah.
JL: Poland.
CB: Oh. Danzig.
JL: Oh God. I’m sorry. My brain’s going on strike.
CB: Stettin.
JL: Stettin. Thank you.
CB: Right. So that was a port. And what were you after there? The shipping. Were you?
JL: The port. Yes. That was a long one. That’s well over nine hours. We had overload tanks.
CB: The overload tanks were jettisonable or were they inside the aircraft?
JL: Oh no. They were, they were in the bomb bay.
CB: Oh right.
JL: So we had a reduced bomb load.
CB: And this is the early part of the war so how were you getting on in terms of navigation and pinpointing the target?
JL: There was very little to help us with navigation. We had a choice of dead reckoning and any pinpointing we could get. At night, providing there was no cloud, water could usually be seen. The River Rhine. We used to get quite a bit of haze over the Ruhr but you could usually pick out the Rhine. All the coastlines and harbours. We did have Hamburg two or three times. Bremen. Wilhelmshaven. Berlin. Most of them were to the Ruhr though. I think we did [pause], oh God my brain.
CB: So there was flak all the time but to what extent were there —?
JL: Nearly all the time. Yes.
CB: What about night fighters? Were they?
JL: We were attacked. Yes. On the way back from Berlin actually. We were. Berlin was clear but there was, on the way back we encountered cloud and we were being shot at through the cloud pretty well continuously. And we couldn’t understand this because we shouldn’t have been but what had happened was that the forecast wind which was all we had had changed and they’d taken us north and we were actually going down via Hamburg, Bremen, Emden but eventually there was a break in the clouds and as I looked down I could see the causeway across the mouth of the Zuiderzee and as I reported this and obviously everybody, including the rear gunner, was looking down and it was just at that moment that a burst of fire went right over the top of us followed by an ME110. And we didn’t see it. We were lucky. But anyway, anyway we went down a very steep spiral and this 110 tried to follow us and Keith Coleman, our New Zealand rear gunner got a good shot at it and we both went into cloud and we never knew what happened to it but after the war some people checked up on it and there were no night fighters shot down that night but one inexplicably crashed on landing and it’s just possible it might have been the one.
CB: Because you’d damaged it. Yeah. Now, in those days had the corkscrew evasion system operated or did you make up your own technique for avoiding a fighter?
JL: Well, only, only did corkscrewing if you were, if you were attacked. In my second tour actually it was different. It was my own idea. I kept changing course and height. Five hundred feet up. Five hundred feet up. Turned left, then right. Pretty well all the time because the eighty eight millimetre guns were radar controlled and they were bloody good. So by doing that we were never actually seriously shot at. Not enroute.
CB: You mentioned that you had various co-pilots. Why was that? Were they being prepared for captaincy themselves or what?
JL: Yes. They were doing their training before taking over their own crew. I’m very sorry.
[Recording paused]
JL: That was the daylight raid on, on Brest I think.
CB: Oh. We talked about the 110 just now but what, on what other occasion were you attacked by a fighter?
JL: On the daylight raid on Brest in July there were several 110s about. Sorry. Correction. 109s about.
CB: Yes.
JL: But there were a lot of Wellingtons about and they were all, they were all firing at these 109s and one went, certainly went down because the pilot baled out but all the others tend to claim it. [laughs]
CB: Right. Is that your —
JL: In retrospect it’s impossible to say who hit it.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
JL: We had, we had beam guns but both my gunners, front and rear were blasting away and we had two beam gunners with Vickers, Vickers VJOs fitted up and the second, our second pilot and the wireless op were blasting away with theirs as well and of course all the Wellingtons were probably doing the same thing so the sky was absolutely full of CO3.
CB: Right. So in your flying training at Ternhill what sort of people were there?
JL: We had two American air force officers. Sam Morinello and the other one was called Galbraith. But of course they left us to join their Eagle Squadrons. We also had Neville Duke.
CB: Oh right.
JL: And we had David. Oh God, here we go again [pause] oh I’m sorry. My brain’s —
CB: It’s alright. That’s interesting Neville Duke because he took the world speed record in the Hunter.
JL: Yes.
CB: Didn’t he? In the fifties.
JL: He was also on the same course at ITW.
CB: Was he? Yeah. What about these Americans then. What were they like? Because they weren’t in the war and they’d volunteered to join?
JL: Yes. Well most Americans joined the Royal Canadian Air Force but these two didn’t. Sam Morinello had done a lot of parachute jumps. Just what he’d, they’d been doing. I think they both had pilot training. Why they didn’t join the Canadian Air Force I don’t know but I suppose this was the — they wanted to be certain to get to the American squadrons.
CB: So they were posted to the Eagle Squadrons.
JL: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Yes. They were. I think they distinguished themselves fairly well later on.
CB: And how did they fit into the general way of things because they were a different culture?
JL: Oh well. Very well. I’m trying to think of the name of this. His father was chief. Well his father was a pre-war, a World War One pilot. He became a chief designer at Bristol and he had four sons. He was killed in 1938 flying one of his own design and the [pause] and the three sons, I think it was three sons. Might have been more. So, anyway, two of them were killed early in the war and this David. He was just one of the boys. Happy. We knew nothing at all about his background at all.
CB: Oh dear.
JL: But he, unfortunately he was killed as well. Oh God. The name, name, name. [I must have written it?] I bet it’s in there.
CB: Ok. Right. We’ll stop just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: So going back to the time when you finished at 40 Squadron. Where were posted and why?
JL: I was posted to Wellesbourne Mountford for instructional duties. Wellesbourne Mountford being Number 22 OTU. Operational Training Unit. Still with Wellington 1Cs. I was attached to the conversion flight. I was converting them to fly the Wellington after which they did their navigational exercises. I didn’t like the job at all. I’m not born, I wasn’t born to be an instructor and I was very unhappy about it. Not only that but it involved night flying details and in the winter the night flying practice was divided up into four sessions being 6 till 9, 9 till 12, 12 till 3 and 3 till 6 and if you were on a late show you know you had to be out at 3 o’clock on a cold, miserable morning and go and do three hours circuits and landings and that was not very funny. I discovered that there was, at Central Flying School, they ran a course for OTU instructors so I asked to go on that which I did but it didn’t help. It didn’t help me much. When I went back to Wellesbourne I was still doing conversion training. Then in July another OTU opened at what is now East Midlands Airport.
CB: Castle Donington.
JL: Castle Donington. That had just opened and I was posted there. When I got there there were four or five other people there and no aeroplanes. So we had a nice time for a while. Then we collected some aeroplanes and started training. Right. Now we start. Originally I was on conversion training but then I went on to the navigation side and I was sent on a cross country with a, a five hour cross country, with a pupil crew and when I got — this was in October ‘42 and when I got back I found I was rostered to go on what they called a bullseye that night which is an exercise cooperating with the Observer Corps and the ground defences. I went to the mess and there was no food and there was no option but to go back down to the flight and took over yet another pupil crew I’d never met before. We went off on this bullseye. We got, we got over the Solway Firth, we were actually going to North Wales but via the Solway Firth and we hit icy conditions. Ice was [cough] ice was banging away on the side. I discovered that the wireless operator had declared his apparatus unserviceable. I’d no idea what the navigator was like. I was frozen stiff so I decided to go home. We were over ten tenths cloud as they called it and so I flew east for a long long long way before letting down safely and then found my way back to, to the airfield. The next day I was on the carpet for abandoning the bullseye. I explained everything but it didn’t cut any ice. This wing commander who hadn’t done a thing I think for himself demanded to see my logbook and in my logbook I’d cut out a little comic thing from a flight magazine where the caption was, “All the way from Hamburg on one engine,” and of course it was a chap sitting astride just an engine and this wing commander took exception to this and told me to take it off. By this time I told him I didn’t want to take it out. And we departed. We departed the worst of friends and very shortly after that a posting came through for me to 150 Squadron at Snaith which I quite welcomed because I was absolutely sick of OTUs. When I got to Snaith the wing commander said, ‘Who are you and what have you come for?’ So I said, ‘I don’t know why I’ve come, sir. [laughs] I’ve just been posted.’ And he said, ‘Well what do you want to do?’ I said, ‘I want to go on a Lancaster squadron.’ And so I did about three flights in their aircraft. 150 Squadron’s. They had Wellingtons 3s by then with a Hercules. And then I was posted to, [cough] oh dear. I’m sorry. 12 Squadron at Wickenby. Just outside Lincoln. When I got to Wickenby they still had Wellingtons but they were scheduled to train on to Lancs. I did three operations with Wellingtons. Then we were stood down for six weeks to transfer. Convert on to Lancasters.
CB: We’ll stop there just for a mo.
[Recording paused]
JL: And I think a couple of squadrons in 5 Group. That’s all there were at that time.
CB: So how did the conversion process operate? Bearing in mind there were no HCUs.
JL: Conversion on to Lancasters? Well we had a couple of pilots seconded to us. [coughs] I’m so sorry. Let me take a cough pill.
CB: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
JL: Between the Frisian Islands and the mainland.
CB: We’re just talking about your ops on the Wellington before you moved to Lancaster. So one was Hamburg.
JL: Not many on 40 Squadron.
CB: No.
JL: Nor at the OTU.
CB: No.
JL: But when I went back to 12 Squadron as I say we still had Wellingtons and I took over the flight commander’s crew as a going concern. We did one mining operation between Terschelling Island and the mainland and one on the approach to St Nazaire. In the estuary. That was a timed run for an island. I think in between was Hamburg. Bombing.
CB: And with mines you couldn’t drop from too great a height because it would shatter the mine so what height did you go?
JL: I think it was five hundred feet and a hundred and sixty miles an hour.
[pause]
CB: And you operated in miles an hour rather than knots did you?
JL: Yes. Incidentally on that run when I went to St Nazaire I decided to go across Brittany. Low down. It was dark but it was clear enough to fly at two or three hundred feet and I saw quite clearly somebody on the ground with a lantern and they swung it around in a circle as we went past.
CB: Exhilarating at low level at night was it?
JL: Well I think I probably thought it was safer than going higher because the guns couldn’t get at you.
CB: So that was a lone sortie. You weren’t going out as a squadron at the same time.
JL: Oh no. They were all lone sorties.
CB: Right.
JL: Except the, except the daylight on Brest.
CB: Right. So after those three then you do the conversion on to the Lancasters. So what was the process there?
JL: We spent quite a little time learning about the Lancaster on the ground and then we had two pilots from 460 Squadron attached to us and they quite quickly converted us. It didn’t take very long. A Lancaster was quite easy to fly and then we took over our crews and spent some time.
CB: So when you moved to Lancasters the four engines all had an engineer. How did that selection work? Did you have all the crew with you?
JL: Well we had, oh a suitable number of mid-upper gunners and engineers arrived and we didn’t choose them. They were just allocated.
CB: So —
JL: And with a full crew then we started doing navigation exercises, a lot of which, much to our concern, were low level formation.
CB: Daylight or night?
JL: Daylight. We didn’t like the idea very much. In the end we didn’t do any daylights.
CB: So what time are we talking about now? 1942.
JL: 1942. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: My first operation on Lancs was a mining operation. To Norway. Haugesundfjord fjord
[pause]
CB: What was the, that was just in the fjord. Just in the entrance was it? Or close to the shipping?
JL: It was more or less parallel to the coast as I remember.
CB: Right.
JL: It wasn’t, it wasn’t very well defended at all. Searchlights came up and a bit of light flak and my gunners responded quickly and, and they put the lights out again.
CB: What sort of height were you doing your mining?
JL: Five hundred feet.
CB: That was also five hundred was it? Right. Ok. And then the rest of the ops. On that tour how many did you do? With 12 squadron?
JL: I think I did twenty two [pause] on Lancasters. Did thirty on Wellingtons. I did the two thousand bomber raids. And then another twenty two [coughs], another twenty two on Lancs which made fifty four I think.
CB: So that normal tour would be thirty. So why did you stop at twenty two?
JL: Oh well I’d done, I did the fifty fourth operation which was to La Spezia in Italy. And the next morning I was called in by the wing commander. And wondering what I’d done wrong, and he said that a new edict had come through that a second tour was now twenty operations. Not twenty. And as I’d done twenty I was finished as of then.
CB: Right. Not thirty. Yeah.
JL: So I finished very suddenly at fifty four.
CB: So what was the next move from there?
JL: Well I wanted to be a test pilot and I thought the best way of starting was getting a posting to a maintenance unit. The wing commander. Wing commander. [pause] Oh dear. Wood. Wing Commander Wood was very very helpful because my first posting after having finished the second tour was back to Wellington 1Cs at Harwell.
CB: Oh right.
JL: And I complained very very loudly about that so WinCo Wood took me off that and made me sort of supernumerary on the squadron. I was talking to new crews and doing odd jobs and then I couldn’t go on forever so they gave me a posting to the Group Gunnery Flight at Binbrook. 1481 flight. I was, they had a Wellington flight and a Martinet flight — the target towers. I was in charge of the Wellington flight and I had a right royal time there. I was my own boss and we did as we liked. But then a posting came through for me to Boscombe Down. A&AEE which I was rather frightened about that. I wasn’t sure if I was up to it. In the end it was fine. Incidentally, the posting to Harwell, another second tour pilot finished shortly after me [pause] Once again his name’s gone. But he took it because his wife lived near Harwell and within about six weeks he was dead. The engine caught fire and the thing folded. What was his name? All these names are in there.
CB: Yeah.
JL: In ten minutes time I can tell you.
CB: Ok. We can pick it up. So now you’re on the way to Boscombe Down.
JL: Yes. I went to Boscombe Down. I was posted to, there was an armament flight and a performance testing flight. I went to the armament flight and the flight commander gave me a ride in a B, oh dear, B25.
CB: Mitchell.
JL: Mitchell. Mitchell. And that was it. I didn’t have any dual. You just got in to an aeroplane and flew it.
CB: Right.
JL: And that’s just, just what happened. And I amassed a total of, I think eventually a hundred and forty four types.
CB: Really. So what formal process did they have for introducing you to test flying?
JL: None at all then. I was just posted in, as I said given a ride in a Mitchell because I’d never been in an American aircraft before. And that was it. I flew them all. Liberators, Fortresses. What was the, was it a B26?
CB: Marauder.
JL: Marauder. That was a bit of a handful.
CB: Was it?
JL: Very high wing loading.
CB: And when you were doing the flying did you have people with you on instruments? Who were monitoring instruments? What was actually happening at Boscombe Down?
JL: Most of my flying was done for armament purposes and we had armament technical officers. Sort of bombing and gunning and we were supervising the tests. We were just drivers really.
CB: Yeah.
JL: My first job, my very first job when I got down there was to drop a four thousand pounder from fifteen hundred feet. Well in the, in Bomber Command the quoted safety height for dropping a four thousand pounder is six thousand feet. Really it was nothing. You felt, well you heard and felt just a little bump. And all this was, they were doing a lot of tests in preparation for what they called second TAF. Second Technical Airforce for the invasion.
CB: So this is army support effectively. So the four thousand pounder’s the cookie which is just a barrel.
JL: Oh yes.
CB: And did you feel there was some danger in doing that? Or did you prove there wasn’t?
JL: Well as I say we’d been told the safety height was six thousand feet and we were sent off to do it at fifteen hundred but I had no problem.
CB: Which was what they wanted to know.
JL: They were measuring it.
CB: Where would you, where was the range where you dropped those?
JL: Lyme Bay. Just off Lyme Regis.
CB: Yeah. What other things were you dropping? Or was there a lot of gunnery involved as well with the fifty seven millimetre.
JL: A bit of both. I had another job with a Mosquito. Oh incidentally. Mosquito. This was typical Boscombe at the time. There was quite a lot of social drinking went on in the evenings and one of the chaps who was, I was very fond of as an armament officer called Shepherd. He was a school master in civil life but he was involved with the rocket. RPs rocket projectiles which was flown by the [pause] oh God.
CB: The Mosquitos and the Beaufighters.
JL: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Anyway, one night he said, ’Would you like to fly a Mosquito?’ So I said, ‘Yes please.’ And the next day we just walked out to this Mosquito. Let’s say 8RPs. Four under each wing. And I got in. He got in behind me and we went off. That was literally true.
CB: And you’d never flown a two engine.
JL: I’d never flown a Mosquito before.
CB: No.
JL: And I’d certainly never fired rockets but there was quite an art in that because he was telling me what to do all the time. And then another job I had with the Mosquito was — I think they were probably four thousand pound casings filled with [pause] oh dear my brain. Flammable stuff.
CB: Oh yes. Napalm.
JL: What?
CB: Napalm.
JL: Napalm. Yes and this was, this was done we had a range at Crichel Down which, which was, I guess, sometime after the war and low level and so I went off and dropped one of these things at low level. Went back and landed and they phoned up and said, ‘You’re too high.’ So I had another one. I think we did this four times. Eventually I was flying just as low as I possibly dare.
CB: Was this in a Mosquito again?
JL: Yes. And then I saw some cine film of it afterwards but to see this Mosquito scuttling along just above the treetops and a great flame drops the, a great flame went up like a clutching hand way up above the Mosquito. Came down just missing its tail. It was quite frightening to watch and I did that four times.
CB: Blimey. This is using the four thousand pounder casing.
JL: That’s what it looked like. Yes.
CB: When you were doing your four thousand pounder at fifteen hundred feet what plane were you using to drop?
JL: The Lanc.
CB: That was the Lanc. Right. Ok. What other exciting planes? Did you fly single seaters at Boscombe Down?
JL: Oh yes. You could fly anything you wanted. Just go along and say, ‘Please can I have a go at this.’ And you did. There were, well I’d already flown Spitfires. I don’t know where they got that from but I pinched a Spitfire.
CB: Oh did you?
JL: At Binbrook.
CB: You felt it needed exercising.
JL: Yes. You haven’t, you haven’t got on to this one.
CB: No. Go on.
JL: Well —
CB: Right.
JL: 1 Group. They had a, I think he was a New Zealander with a Spitfire. He used to go around all the squadrons doing fighter affiliation. He came. He used to come to Binbrook about once a week I should think. Every time he came I used to say, ‘Give us a go in your Spitfire.’ And eventually he said, ‘Well I’m going to lunch. I know nothing about it.’ So I took that as a have a go.
CB: Have a go.
JL: Yeah. So I went off and did fifteen minutes in this Spitfire and the station commander was Hughie Edwards.
CB: Oh right. [laughs]
JL: Well actually I got on well with him and just a couple of days later, I can’t remember what he said but it was just a very few words just to let me know that he knew about it and having done that I thought well I’ll have another go. So the next time this chap came in I had another go. And then at Kirton Lindsey, not very far away there was a Spitfire OTU. So I went off in — Hughie Edwards used to have a Tiger Moth. He used to let me fly that and I just introduced an Aussie, Aussie wireless op of 460 Squadron. So we went over to Kirton Lindsey and said we wanted to fly Spitfires and they said, ‘Well you’ll have to use Hibaldstow. Our satellite.’ So I went over to Hibaldstow. Now. I can’t for the life of me think how this ever happened but I walked in there and said, ‘Please sir, I have flown a Spitfire before. Can I have another go?’ And then he gave me a Spitfire and I went off for forty five minutes. They’d never seen me before. I’d never seen them before. But this is true. It’s true.
CB: Was this the OTU for the Eagle Squadron?
JL: No. I don’t think so.
CB: No.
JL: I don’t know what it was. It was just a Spitfire OTU.
CB: Yeah. Right. Amazing.
JL: I mean authorising. Who the hell would authorise a flight in a Spitfire from somebody they’d never seen before?
CB: What rank were you at that time?
JL: Flight lieutenant. [pause] Yeah. Lots of things like that happened to me. It’s hard to believe them now.
CB: Yeah.
JL: I guarantee it. I don’t know how you would ever prove it now but [poor old Max Kiddie?] the Aussies. He died. Well most Aussies seem to die young. Most of the ones I knew did.
CB: Yeah. Back at —
JL: Hughie Edwards only made sixty eight.
CB: Yes. Back at Boscombe Down you’ve got all these variety of planes and you’re in the armament flight. So on the single engine planes what are you testing?
JL: Mostly guns. Things like the Avenger I remember, which was quite a nice aeroplane. We didn’t have many single engines. Only for our own test purposes but I used to go around and fly other people’s.
CB: So the Grumman Avenger was — you were doing that for the navy were you?
JL: Yes.
CB: Right.
JL: Yes I remember the Avenger. The Avenger, I think, yes. I can’t remember what. We did anything. And we were all much the same. We were entitled to one day off a week but nobody ever took it. All that happened when there was a non-flying day we all went into Salisbury. Otherwise every day was the same.
CB: Yeah. What other twin-engined aircraft did you fly at Boscombe Down?
JL: I don’t know.
CB: Did you have a Whirlwind for instance?
JL: No. No. Unfortunately not. I liked the look of a Whirlwind. They had the, they had the Wyvern there but it never went into production. It was a sort of larger, uglier looking one.
CB: Wellington.
JL: I’ve made a list somewhere of what I’ve flown.
CB: Ok. So after Boscombe Down. Then what? We’re now getting to what? What time of the war?
JL: Well the Empire Test Pilot School had started and had number one course for only about eight or ten people on that. And they had number two course. That was going on during the time I was there. They were based at Boscombe. I applied for number three course which began on the 13th March 1945 and actually I’d been, I was scheduled to drop the, I can’t remember whether it was the Tallboy or the Grand Slam but the weather had been duff and the 13th of March came up and that was the date of DPDS started so I had to give up that and a chap called Steve Dawson did the dropping of it. But of course 514. Oh my brain. Come on. The Dambusters.
CB: Yeah. 617.
JL: 617. That’s better. They already had them of course.
CB: So talking about Tallboy and Grand Slam. How were you testing those and where?
JL: Dropping them on Ashley Walk in the New Forest.
CB: So did they, they were looking for penetration were they? Or accuracy of flight? What were they looking at?
JL: I can’t remember.
CB: Because they were pinpoint delivery bombs.
JL: Probably the mechanics of dropping it. Yes that would be it. No point in dropping it on Ashley Walk except to make a big hole.
CB: Were they testing the ability of the two bombs to penetrate concrete?
JL: I don’t think so. I think 617 squadron were already doing that. They did the Tirpitz and that thing in France.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Coupole or whatever they called it.
CB: Coupole. Yes. They did a good job on that.
JL: Did a good job of the Tirpitz too.
CB: Yeah. And V3. Tallboys. The guns. The guns in the hillside. So did you, after doing your dropping did they ask you to look at the result of what you’d done?
JL: I can’t remember that. No.
[pause]
JL: I had a wonderful time at Boscombe. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
CB: I bet. So you talked about ETPS the Test Pilot School so what happened there. Number three course.
JL: I was on number three course. Yes. And of course the end of the war came. Chief test pilots round the industry had a habit of coming down and taking lunch with the senior officers and Cyril Feather who was the chief test pilot at Boulton Paul wanted a pilot and somebody suggested me. And I was a bit flattered and thought it would be a good idea so I accepted. And at the end of the course actually we were all being, getting the future sorted out. I had applied for a permanent commission. In the event they didn’t issue permanent commissions immediately. They did what amounted to short service. They didn’t call it short service. Four year contracts.
CB: Yeah. Just Short Service Commissions.
JL: It was a short service commission but they called it something else.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Extended Service Commission
CB: Oh right.
JL: In the event they only issued Extended Service Commissions and I took this offer of Boulton Paul’s but when I got there the chief test pilot engineer was there. He didn’t know I was coming. He was a bit put out understandably. Anyway, we got on alright but there was nothing to do there and I went to ETPS course dinner and we had a number four course I suppose which at this time it was [pause] oh dear [pause] somewhere near Milton Keynes
CB: Oh Cranfield.
JL: Cranfield. Thank you. I’m sorry about this.
CB: That’s alright.
JL: And the Groupie — I can’t think of his name now. A little chap. Said, ‘Are you happy where you are?’ I said, ‘No sir.’ He said, ‘Well, Saunders Roe are looking for somebody. Well, Saunders Roe suited me very well because apart from being on the Isle of Wight my wife lived near Winchester and so I I left Baulton Paul and went to Saunders Roe and [cough] oh dear. I don’t know why my throat’s doing this.
CB: Do you want a break? We’ll just stop for a mo?
[Recording paused]
CB: Now, one thing I didn’t ask you about the Boscombe Down range was you were actually testing American aircraft as well as British.
JL: Oh yes.
CB: One of the night fighters, American night fighters was called Black Widow.
JL: Yes. Flew that.
CB: What was that like?
JL: It was not a very pleasant aircraft to fly really. I think it had remote controlled guns for even firing. It was alright but not a, not a very brilliant aircraft. Yes. The P51.
[pause]
CB: Right. Thank you. So we’re now at Saunders Roe. So what was the task there?
JL: Well they didn’t have a proper pilot there but chief designers [unclear] had been at the fleet air arm. He was doing a little bit. There were, at the time they were building Sea Otters and refurbishing Walruses, the jet flying boat fighter was on the docks. The SRA1. And in the distance was the Princess.
CB: Right.
JL: And so I just joined in flying the Walruses and the Sea Otters and then they, they sent me on a Sunderland conversion course to Pembroke Dock which was very nice. So I had the full OTU course on the Sunderland. Now what had happened at Saunders Roe was that Short Brothers — where did they used to be? On the Thames.
CB: At Chatham. Rochester.
JL: Rochester. Stafford Cripps, who was a trade minister or something, nationalised Short’s and sent them to Belfast. They never did like that including the chairman Sir Arthur Gouge. So he carried these down to Saunders Roe and he was, he was followed by a whole lot of other people including a general manager, Browning and a whole lot and they just didn’t want to be at Belfast. And whilst I was away at Pembroke Dock I got a letter from the managing director [laughs] Captain Clark saying that Geoffrey Tyson would be joining the company as chief test pilot. Well he was one of the Short’s. Well he was chief test pilot at Short’s. I thought well that’s fair enough. He knows his stuff. I don’t. And so I wrote back and said, “Yes, that’s fine by me sir.” And when I got back I met Geoffrey. He was the most peculiar chap. He wasn’t the least interested in me, my background. He didn’t want to see my logbooks. Nothing. He knew nothing about me. And I found it very hard to get on with him. He hadn’t any sense of humour, he didn’t drink, he didn’t smoke. But we staggered along and he did the first few flights on the SRA1 and then he let me have a go. Well then, well we, we didn’t get on at all. Face it. We shared the same birthday but he was twelve years older than me.
CB: Right.
JL: And —
CB: In flying boat terms he was a cold fish.
JL: Then he, he told me one day that John Booth, who was another Short pilot was going to join as his number two so obviously that was my invitation to leave. So I rang up Eric Franklin at Armstrong Whitworth and got a job back there straight away and that was, that was the end of the things. I flew the SRA1 at Farnborough along with several other do’s.
CB: Just to put this —
JL: He was a most peculiar fellow.
CB: To put this into a context if I may. The SRA1 was the first jet powered Flying Boat.
JL: Yes.
CB: So what was the concept and what was it like?
JL: I think the idea was it would be handy in the Pacific area where they wouldn’t have to have a runway. It was quite a powerful machine with four twenty millimetre cannon.
CB: It was a fighter.
JL: It was a fighter. Yes. And although it was a bit bulky for a fighter it was quite lively but of course the Pacific war ended and there was no more call for it. Three were completed and two were crashed. One by Winkle Brown and one by a [Pete Major?] at Felixstowe. Another one is at Southampton.
CB: So you did the course on the Sunderland at Pembroke. That set you up.
JL: Pembroke Dock.
CB: Pembroke dock. That set you up in anticipation of flying the SRA1 did it? Was that the idea?
JL: Yes. That was the Flying Boats in general.
CB: And you were flying the Walruses and the Otters
JL: Yes. The Walruses and the Sea Otter you could taxi on the slipway.
CB: Yeah.
JL: The others needed mooring.
CB: So, what, how did it feel flying a jet flying boat? Because compared with flying a piston engine it was quite different.
JL: Well I had flown jets before. I flew the Vampire and the Meteor.
CB: At Boscombe Down.
JL: Yeah. [pause] I don’t know. Didn’t feel particularly different.
CB: Did you have to have particularly unusual handling techniques because of being a jet engine and getting water in it?
JL: Well they had designed in an extended snout but it was never necessary. It was never used because the spray was always well clear of the intake. I’ve got to have another.
CB: That’s alright.
[Recording pause]
JL: At that time the Isle of Wight was bristling with retired naval captains.
CB: Oh.
JL: Actually I thought he was one of those.
CB: Right.
JL: It turned out to be a captain in the Royal Flying Corps and equivalent of a flight lieutenant.
CB: But he called himself Captain Clark.
JL: Oh he was very fussy about the captain bit.
CB: Yeah. How interesting. What was he like as a personality? As the chairman.
JL: He was a bit peculiar. He had very little technical knowledge. How he came to be managing director I don’t know.
CB: Of an aviation company.
JL: Finance I suppose. But he was a bit of an oddball.
CB: Now after the Saunders Roe situation changing you went back to Armstrong Whitworth.
JL: Yes.
CB: So how did that come about? You just made direct contact or how did it work?
JL: Well when Geoffrey told me John Booth was joining as his number two that was obviously my cue to go so I immediately phoned Eric Franklin who — he’d been an apprentice with me at Armstrong Whitworth and he was then chief test pilot and he offered me a job straight away. So I was on my way within a very few days.
CB: So what was Armstrong Whitworth working on then? We’re talking about 1946 now are we?
JL: ‘49
CB: ‘49. Right.
JL: When I, when went back there the bread and butter was the production of Mark iv Meteors which became Mark viii Meteors. Simultaneously we had the Apollo which was a heap of rubbish.
CB: An airliner.
JL: Yes.
CB: An imitation air liner.
JL: It was supposed to be in competition with the Vickers Viscount. That was because it had to have Armstrong Siddeley engines, which were rubbish so it was never made anywhere. They were very [pause] well, a child of ten could have designed it.
CB: Oh.
JL: We had the 52. The 52 glider.
CB: So how, the AW52 was a flying wing.
JL: Yes.
CB: So could you just explain what the concept there was and the use of the glider first?
JL: Well, one of the purposes of it was to try to develop laminar flow over the wing.
CB: Right.
JL: But it wasn’t very successful because it’s impossible to keep the wind surface clear of squashed flies and things but actually it was a very experimental aircraft. I suppose they had ideas of building a massive passenger aircraft in that form but in this case it was just a two seater but they, it only had twenty six degrees of sweepback which was not nearly enough. And on controls they had several choices. What they chose was an elavon — a combined elevator and aileron. They could have split them and had separate ailerons and elevators or power controls were coming along although they hadn’t reached it yet. Well they wrongly decided on the elavons which meant that fore and aft was a very short lever balance, was very vert sensitive fore and aft, very very heavy laterally and they had a compromise and the compromise was through a spring tab. Are you familiar with a spring tab?
CB: Yeah.
JL: On a spring tab the spring had to be very very weak so that your controls are connected to a very floppy spring and my problem was exceeding the [pause] exploring the higher speed range before flutter set in. I was completely disorientated and I believe that I would have passed out very quickly so instead of that I pulled the blind down. I didn’t do anything properly in the ejection. You were supposed to put your heels on the footrest. I didn’t do that. I just didn’t do it. That’s all. And it had spectacle controls. Somehow or other my knees missed that. They were bruised but otherwise, otherwise ok. So once again I was very very very lucky.
CB: What height were you flying?
JL: About three thousand feet.
CB: And what speed?
JL: Three hundred. About three hundred and fifty. The limiting speed had just been increased and that’s what I was doing.
CB: So it’s the —
JL: Exploring that.
CB: Right. And theoretically what was the maximum speed? Fairly low was it?
JL: Oh I expect so. Yes. Yes not much performance testing was done. It was all sort of handling. Trying to get the controls right.
CB: So you’re at three thousand. Three thousand feet. What sort of speed were you actually flying at at that moment?
JL: Well the last I remember was about three fifty.
CB: It was at three fifty. Right.
JL: We were still at miles an hour.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And —
CB: The parachute automatically deployed.
JL: No. No.
CB: You had to do it.
JL: I had to do the whole thing.
CB: Yeah.
JL: I had to release the Sutton harness and pull the rip cord.
CB: Right.
JL: I made a very bad landing and hurt my shoulder a bit. Still hurts.
CB: Where? Where did this take place?
JL: A place called little Long Itchington.
CB: I know it. Yes.
JL: Do you know it? South of Coventry.
CB: Yes. Good pub there.
JL: Yes. I’ve been there.
CB: The Blue Light.
JL: The Blue Light.
CB: Yes.
JL: Used to kept by Wing Commander Sandy Powell.
CB: Oh.
JL: Who had been at Boscombe Down. In charge of C flight.
CB: And he he became a Comet test pilot and that blew his mind.
JL: Hmmn?
CB: He had been a Comet test pilot as well hadn’t he?
JL: Sandy?
CB: Yeah.
JL: Well he’d flown all sorts of things.
CB: Yeah. Right. So that’s where you came down. And the plane came down somewhere. Where?
JL: About two miles further on.
CB: Yeah. What? How did you start off with the gliders? The Glider. How did that handle? You were towed up by something and then —
JL: [laughs]. Not exactly. They had, they had a Whitley to tow it off first of all but when I got there they’d just been allocated a Lancaster. That Whitley was the last off the production line and they took it away and broke it up. There was no Whitley any more. But we had a Lancaster which was much better getting the glider up to a decent height. Used to take it up and then do tests on the way down.
CB: So how manoeuvrable was the glider?
JL: Well it was much better. It was two thirds the size of a big one and it was not metal? It was plywood construction which made it much more rigid and the controls were much better. Still a bit odd.
CB: And what sort of test envelope would you be exploring in that?
JL: Oh I don’t know. I don’t remember.
CB: Then you moved to the AW52.
JL: Yes. I only did two and a half flights in the AW52.
CB: Right.
JL: And the other one was grounded. Then they did some vibration tests with it at very slow speeds. When they sent it to Farnborough where it was regarded as a curiosity. I think they tried to resurrect the laminar flow test but it was no good and it finished up as a curiosity and was eventually broken up.
CB: What was the engine power on that? Was it twin engine?
JL: Yes. Two Nenes. Yes. One had two Nenes. One had two Derwents.
CB: Right. So this was a government contract.
JL: Yes.
CB: To examine laminar flows.
JL: A research. A government supported.
CB: So after that you get out. You’re the first person to use an ejector seat in serious operation.
JL: Yes. The Germans had got on of course during the war. They weren’t as good of course. I think they were operated by compressed air. But I think there were a quite a lot of German ejections.
CB: Were there?
JL: And I was the first of the allied side shall we say.
CB: In peacetime. So you injured your shoulder. What did you do after that?
JL: I was off flying for about a month and then I went to central, CME Central Medical Establishment in London and they gave me a going over and sent me home with a little piece of paper which said, “Fits, fits civilian MOS pilot but not to be exposed to the hazards of the Martin-Baker ejection seat.” And so shrieks of laughter at that. Still are. [laughs]
CB: An interesting point though in practical terms the seat is operated by a cartridge. What was the affect? The seat is operated by an explosive cartridge so what did the ejection itself do to your spine?
JL: Well I had already gone up to [Denham?] and got on the test rig and following that I had a little bit of pain in my tail. I mentioned this to my GP and explained what had happened. He said, ‘Well, I expect you bruised it a bit.’ But the pain didn’t go away. It wasn’t constant and so I ignored it. Then when I ejected they x-rayed me and they said that I’d suffered a compression fracture of the first and second vertebrae and what’s more this was the second time this has happened. So the same thing happened both times.
CB: Right.
JL: I think it’s quite common actually.
CB: Yes. It’s just the modern seats are rocket and they still have a sharp acceleration don’t they?
JL: Yes.
CB: So, ok. What did you do next then? Did you return to flying?
JL: Oh yes. I went to Armstrong Whitworth and started again. And well we went through a lot of productions the Sea Hawk, the Hunter 2 and 5, Hunter 7. We had [pause] God. Come on brain. Javelin.
CB: Oh yes. ‘Cause they were building all of these. Some contractors were they?
JL: Yes. I mean we took over. We took over the Sea Hawk complete. Design and everything.
CB: Oh right.
JL: But the others were just sub-contracts. The Hunter 2 and the 5 had Sapphire engines. We built all those.
CB: How long did all that go on?
JL: Well the Argosy came along 1959. And I participated in that for a while which wasn’t a very good aircraft at all. Didn’t have enough range for the RAF to start with. But Glosters closed down. Who else closed down? Avro. Avro’s closed down [pause] No they didn’t. Glosters closed down. Somebody else closed down and the Hawker Siddeley Group was sort of imploding rapidly and so I thought it time to go rather than just sit about and wait to be picked to be sacked. And so I went to the managing director and said I’d be happy to leave and that I had a suggestion that they see me through the necessary, considerable training to obtain an airline transport pilot’s licence and they happily agreed to that. They paid all my expenses. In all for about three months. I got that licence and they gave me a year’s salary and said thank you very much. And unfortunately I was, met another chap who’d got into crop spraying in Africa. Made a lot of money. And he talked me into joining him in the business but unfortunately he had a wife too many and he bought a house out of the business and things were going very wrong and I lost a lot of money and pulled out. And I needed a job and there was a job down here at Shoreham regional air maps. Doing air survey photography and map making. So I took that job to give me, keep me sane while I looked around for an airline job but the only airline job that came my way was flying a Dakota to Dusseldorf at night with the papers. I didn’t fancy that at all. I was well placed because the crewing manager at British United was a chap who’d been at Boscombe Down, Charles Moss and he was looking out for me. And nothing came along. This was in 1964. So I took this job and I got engrossed in the air survey business anyway and passed the point of no return age wise I think and I stayed there until I was sixty five.
CB: So looking back on your RAF career what was the most memorable point, would you say, of your activities?
JL: I think my first tour with that motley crew I had.
CB: In what way?
JL: Well we went everywhere together. Did everything together.
CB: Yeah.
JL: It was rather different with the second tour. We didn’t sort of mix socially so much.
CB: Didn’t you?
JL: Well I had good happy times but —
CB: When were you commissioned? In the first tour.
JL: In my first tour. Yeah. August 1941.
CB: Right.
JL: This was another little story. I was down in the dispersal one day and an airman came down and said, ‘Here. You’ve got to fill this in.’ [laughs] And it was an application form for a commission. So I thought I’d better fill it in which I did and I had to go to London for an interview and my crew, I went down by train late at night. My crew duly saw my off via the George Hotel and I was in a pretty fair state when I got on the train. Got to London in the blackouts. There was an air raid warning on. I had nowhere to go. I eventually found a dim light which was the Church Army or Salvation Army or something. A little hostel. So I went in there and they gave me a bed for the night. In the morning I never saw the proper toilet facilities. I just got, I just got dressed. I had a terrible hangover and went for my interview. I think it was actually Adastral House in Kingsway. Then went back to the squadron and carried on. And then we went on leave and I still had my car. If you had a car and you went on leave you had petrol coupons for the place you were going so obviously the best thing is to have a destination as far away as possible to get the most petrol. So I had the address of a friend in Shrewsbury and I just gave that as my address whilst on leave. Whilst I was on leave they sent a telegram to this address saying commission granted and never to return as pilot officer so I turned up not knowing a thing about this so I had to rush into Cambridge and get myself fitted for a uniform and rushed in again to put it on and went in as a sergeant and came back as a pilot officer. And my crew all came with me as usual and they marched in front demanding that everybody saluted me. [laughs]
CB: Sounds like a riot.
JL: Yeah.
CB: Didn’t work the same way with the Lancaster crew. Is that because you had two people join later?
JL: Well I had a ready-made crew. The commanding officer had gone off sick. He needed some surgery and I took over his crew which was a Wellington crew. And the navigator was a ex-Exeter prison jailer and he had, he had funny ideas. He used to take a .38 revolver with him on ops. Yeah. The wireless operator was, came from Dublin and surprisingly he was a teetotal. The original wireless op and the rear gunner both changed quite quickly having finished whatever they were on and so I had a sort of a scratch crew to start with and when we changed we changed on to Lancs we had two new members and we were all on happy good terms but we didn’t sort of go down the the pub as a gang as we did on the first tour.
CB: How many other officers in your crew? In that case. On the Lancasters.
JL: There were no officers except me in the first crew. The second crew [pause] I had two changes of navigator and they were both commissioned. The rear gunner in both cases both were commissioned. Just in the last legs I had a commissioned wireless op. A Canadian. Gordon Fisher. The rest were all sergeants.
CB: You had an unusually broad experience because you started early and did various other things. To what extent did you come across LMF?
JL: On 40 Squadron we had a chap. I can tell you his name can I?
CB: Ahum.
JL: [Hesketh?]
CB: Yeah.
JL: And all sorts of things kept going wrong with him. He did a lot of second pilot trips. I had my [unclear] [serves me right?] one time prior to going out on ops he retracted the undercarriage. Almost anything to stop him and he was eventually flying second pilot with the flight commander and that aircraft was seen circling on a point on the East Anglian coast well north off the point where we were supposed to stage through and it spun in and crashed and they were all killed including the flight commander. Creegan was it? And this chap Hesketh. You can’t help but think that Hesketh had something to do with that but why they were, they were about fifty miles north of where they should have been. The other one I only know by hearsay which was 12 Squadron. A crew ditched in the North Sea. The dinghy was upside down and they had to sit on the upturned dinghy for three days and they were rescued and of course they were hospital cases. Apparently for days afterwards when they squeezed [the flesh?] water came out. The wireless op I believe, this was all hearsay Flight Sergeant Rose and he was put back on ops far too soon. He wasn’t ready for it and he was whisked off. Presumably pronounced LMF. Which was very very very unkind. My experience of the RAF was that they were always very kind and compassionate to me.
CB: Well.
JL: Particularly Wing Commander Wood.
CB: Jo thank you very much indeed for a fascinating interview.
JL: I don’t think it was very good.
[Recording paused]
JL: One incident at 12 Squadron again. Lancs. We were right over the top of Hamburg a Junkers 88 went. We heard his engines.
CB: Did you?
JL: Straight over the top of us. Missed us by about ten feet I think.
CB: In the dark.
JL: In the dark.
CB: Yeah.
JL: Well in the dark but you could see quite a lot.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Quite a shock.
JL: Yes [laughs] if he’s close enough to hear the engines he’s too bloody near.
CB: Yeah. And you thanked your lucky stars.
JL: I had another one. I had a very good Australian navigator on 12 Squadron. Anyway, he had to miss an op for some reason or other and we were given a Canadian. A chap called Abrahamson. I’d never sort of met him till we got in the aircraft and the target was Essen. And we went off and by the time we got to the Dutch coast he wasn’t making any sense at all but fortunately the PFF were putting down markers at a couple of turning points and the night was absolutely gin clear. You could see everything. You could see the coast and rivers and I didn’t want to take issue with this Mr Abrahamson so I just carried on and we duly, I made the markers that PFF had put down. You couldn’t miss the target because they were marking that as well. Some duly did deliver the bombs and just flew home. Didn’t need any help flying home. We could see everything and of course when we got back we had to report everything to the squadron navigation officer. Mr Abrahamson was never seen again. By the time we got up in the morning he wasn’t there.
CB: Was he —
JL: Off the station. Where he went? Don’t know.
CB: Did you put that down to stress or just as an incompetent navigator?
JL: I’ve no idea. I’ve no idea. I didn’t know the chap. I hadn’t spoken to him.
CB: Right. Thank you.
[Recording paused]
CB: Wife died.
JL: Well [unclear]
CB: Right.
JL: Very sad. That’s right. We had a legal separation and she wanted to marry again so we did the divorce and then she died 1977.
CB: Right.
JL: I remarried and this wife went a bit berserk. I think she was almost certainly she was got onto drugs. She had her own car. Used to disappear into Brighton for days but she had her father who was a mouse living there and looked after my daughter Jenny and eventually she, well I divorced her and the next thing I knew she’d developed cirrhosis of the liver.
CB: Oh.
JL: And due to her very very peculiar behaviour she hadn’t any friends left at all. She was a very very sad case and she committed suicide.
CB: Right.
JL: In 1964. I’d just retired.
CB: A big strain.
JL: I was left with a daughter sixteen. Just doing her O Levels.
CB: Oh were you really.
JL: Fortunately she’s turned out absolute trumps.
WT: Good. Good.
CB: Excellent.
JL: And the son is fine too. So I have a son of seventy and a daughter forty nine and a loving and loyal family.
CB: Is Jenny married?
JL: She should be.
CB: Oh.
JL: I said, ‘Why don’t you get married?’ ‘What’s the point?’
CB: Oh right.
JL: One of those.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jo Lancaster. Two
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALancasterJO170308
PLancasterJO1501
Conforms To
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Jo Lancaster grew up in Cumbria and joined the Air Force as soon as he was able. After training as a pilot he flew a tour of operations with 40 Squadron from RAF Alconbury. He then became an instructor before his second tour flying Lancasters with 12 Squadron from RAF Wickenby. He then became a test pilot at RAF Boscombe Down. He continued to be a test pilot after the war and was the first person to eject from an aircraft in danger using a Martin-Baker ejector seat. In all he flew a total of more than 144 aircraft types.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Coventry
France--Brest
France--Saint-Nazaire
Germany--Hamburg
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1945
Format
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02:00:18 audio recording
12 Squadron
150 Squadron
20 OTU
22 OTU
40 Squadron
aircrew
B-25
B-26
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
crewing up
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Me 109
Me 110
Meteor
mine laying
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Alconbury
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Castle Donington
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Wickenby
RAF Wyton
recruitment
Spitfire
Tallboy
training
Walrus
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/601/8870/PLoosemoreLJ1501.2.jpg
711df538feec47125a25b5846c6510a0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/601/8870/ALoosemoreLJ151116.1.mp3
8ef370350df4759aa45dc6ad864c2ddc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Loosemore, Lesley Joseph
L J Loosemore
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Loosemore, LJ
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Les Loosemore (3033406, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a mid upper gunner with 61 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AS: My name is Adam Sutch and –
LL: Ah [emphasis], that’s a good idea.
AS: This is an interview with Mr. Les Loosemore, formally mid upper gunner in 61 Squadron, Bomber Command during the Second World War. My name is Adam Sutch, interviewer for the Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive, and the interview is being carried out at xxx Broughton Gifford on the 16th of November 2016. Les, thanks ever [emphasis] so much for agreeing for this interview.
LL: That’s alright.
AS: I’d like to set the scene by asking you to describe your life before joining the Air Force. Where you come from, your brothers and sisters, that sort of thing.
LL: Erm, well [emphasis]. I was born in Swansea, South Wales. Now, I can remember the address some. Left school, first job, first job I had was on a – well a scrap merchant, not [unclear]. This is all ship work [emphasis]. When the ships come in they’re bringing in shells and bombs and stuff, but they’d got to be packed in such a way that every one is above the other, and jammed on the side to stop them from swaying. And it was our job then to [unclear] all those ships and collect all that timber, then we used to store it in the dry [?] so the next ship that comes in, and takes its stuff over to [unclear] or over to Europe [?], you had all the stuff ready and you just put them all back [emphasis] in the same place. But you had to make sure that they stayed upright, so everything was right, a row of bombs, planks, but they had to touch the sides of the ships to stop them from going otherwise they’re all sinked [?] on the bottom. But by doing that, putting a layer of timber in between you kept them in the middle of the ship, yeah [coughs].
AS: How old were you when you started that job?
LL: [Coughs] that was the first job I had I think, yeah. I was only about fourteen, yeah, and – oh and I ended up in the, with the – oh hell, Old Barn Easton [?] was the old scrap yard. I got into somewhere, but I can’t remember where, but [coughs].
AS: Not to worry. But you left –
LL: Erm – I must have been fourteen when I left [inhales loudly]. I got a job [emphasis], sausage skin factory they called it. And you get all [emphasis] the sheep’s guts and get all the – it’s all frozen and it’s all dry and you got to rip all the fat off so you left with a skin which is used for sausages.
AS: Good lord.
LL: Yeah –
AS: That’s your first job.
LL: That’s the, the proper first job I ever had.
AS: Yeah. Were you living at home at that, at that time?
LL: Erm, I was, I was living at [emphasis] home then, yeah. And, where was that? Oh, that was at a place in Swansea, and, well, Treboeth they called it. It’s just on the edge [emphasis] of Swansea. And there was only about ten or fifteen minutes walk, so that want too bad there, yeah. That was an aunt, because I walked out of home, because too many arguments and all this and that. Conditions were better when I went and lived with an aunt.
AS: Oh okay.
LL: So, I haven’t had any, like a brother [?]. I did have that as my official address for many years, even when I was in the RAF, so you can say that was my second home really, yeah.
AS: Mm. Did you have, do you have many brothers and sisters?
LL: I got some, but they are too far away. I’ve only got some brothers. Oh [emphasis] sorry [coughs], I got a sister, she born 1936, that was about a, wrong again [?]. It must have been thirty-seven, mother died in 1937, how do I remember that? I used to play with two tins of World War One medals.
AS: Mm?
LL: Now, I usually, two tins laid right across the table. I never realised it until somebody mentioned it. ‘Why did you have two tins?’ One was is [?] some relative. I don’t think he had any brothers, he had sisters according to my sister. I lost my train of thought –
AS: The World War One medals.
LL: Yeah. I used to put all these medals across and – there were two tins. We discovered he had two tins. Why he had two I was asked by a certain person, and I said ‘I’ll find out.’ And it appears that he’d, he had a relative of some description, he didn’t have any brothers, but he [pause]. Yeah, he said that, well he asked if I had a brother who won a Victoria Cross, and ‘well sir I don’t know,’ and I said ‘next time I go down Swansea’ I said ‘I’ll ask about it.’ And apparently he had a relative as well that was staying with them. One tin was the old man’s and the other was the sister [?]. But he didn’t come back because I think he got wounded during the First World War and he passed away.
AS: Mm.
LL: So he left the old man with the two tins. In there was the square Victoria Cross.
AS: My gosh.
LL: I used to play with that all on the table, two tins of them.
AS: Good lord.
LL: ‘Cause when I asked the old man I said ‘what’s all this then,’ he said ‘well they were all different parts of World War One.’ He didn’t say what they actually were, but it was only later on that I discovered through somebody else that it was a Victoria Cross.
AS: Goodness.
LL: And that was a bloke Loosemore in the First World War.
AS: Good lord. When you were in Swansea during the war – when, what, what, what year were you born in? What year –
LL: 1925.
AS: 1925.
LL: 5th of the 8th 1925.
AS: So, so when the war started you were fourteen [emphasis].
LL: When the war started, erm – I’d left school. Oh [emphasis], that’s when I was working over with the scarp merchant, the one unloading the timber off the ships. That’s the first job I had –
AS: Do you –
LL: And I ended up – actually, oh, a yellow metal mill. It’s a bit like a steel works with all the rollers and a great big wheel and all that material used to come off all bent and we had a machine beside it that would flatten it dead straight. That would then go to the girls, what they called the stamping machine, and they’d stamp out bits of brass the size about, just a bit bigger than say a fifty p. piece. They turned that m, m, into money [emphasis].
AS: Wow, okay.
LL: It was an interesting job [coughs]. Peoples, peoples good, that’s the main thing.
AS: As the war started –
LL: Yeah.
AS: Did you see much of the war in Swansea? Was it –
LL: Did I –
AS: Was it bombed at all, Swansea? Did you see much of the war in Swansea?
LL: Well I joined the RAF in – it’s the book, 1940, 1940, February [emphasis] 1943.
AS: Mhm.
LL: That’s when I signed up with them. I had volunteered – you had to register I think a year before hand so that you could join the ATC and learn something about whatever service you going to go into, Territorials if you’re going in the army. And with the, for the RAF you had the ATC.
AS: Did, is that what you did?
LL: Yeah, and so, I didn’t require all that much because my old man being in the Home Guard, he had a rifle, a three-o-three, and that’s all we wanted to know when we got in the RAF. Who could handle a 303 rifle? But, I’ll tell you one thing, an incident there, I was lucky. I was sitting besides a table, just like that, hand was on [?] there, and I’d been up to the place where there these – oh they had an exercise on, the Home Guard, I had to go up to the barracks and get the rifle. I put it on the bloody table, and the old man started stripping it down to get a good clean overall. He put the blooming [emphasis] rifle down there [emphasis], with the end of it, and the bloody thing went off. It missed my ear by about an inch, yeah, pshh. And it cut a groove in the end of the table, and the old man, when he did go back up on duty, he give them a great big bollocking, ‘cause [coughs] I could have lost an arm easy enough.
AS: Mm.
LL: Yeah.
AS: What –
LL: You got to be, you got to be very careful [coughs]. I wish this cough would go away.
AS: Mhm.
LL: Yeah, yeah carry on.
AS: The – before you joined the Air Force, did you see much of the war in Swansea? Was there bombing, or anything like that?
LL: Well, they had a Blitz in there, I know that. Where were we living then? Most of the time I think we were in, what did they call it? District Road [?] Swansea, Plasmarl, it’s slightly north of the main town centre, and we had our own air raid shelter and that, and [coughs] a good – it was nice and warm [emphasis], it wasn’t cold like a lot of people you see shivering like mad in the middle. Ours was built against another big building, and you used that as one blanket [?], filled it up with earth and built all around it. And that was quite warm in there, yeah.
AS: Mhm.
LL: So we weren’t too bad really [coughs]. Oh bloody hell, I wish – they can’t find anything to get rid of this phlegm I got on my chest, they’re worried if I sit like this ain’t too bad, but I could be dead upright and I got to do it on that bloody bed there. But if I lay down flat it’s worse, but if I can sit upright, dead upright, then phlegm sinks to the bottom –
AS: Yeah.
LL: And then I’m clear for a while, yeah. Anyway carry on.
AS: When you were in Swansea under the bombing, what was it like? Was it night after night or?
LL: Well, we didn’t live there all the time, we were on the outskirts they call it, yeah. Yeah, we moved to an area called Plasmarl and that’s – I’d finished school I think, yeah. Because when I left home I was living with an aunt and I had to walk about two miles [unclear] but [unclear] the mills [emphasis]. Yellow metal mills.
AS: Mhm.
LL: You used to use them as the material brass to make bullet shells, and all that sort of thing. A good job, good pay, so I was alright like that.
AS: Mm. What made you decide to join the Air Force?
LL: Well I had erm, I had two brothers and a sister. The sister was in the WAFs. I think the eldest, no the eldest one was in the army [emphasis] but the second eldest was in the – I would say, erm, what do they call them now? [Pause] oh what do they call them, they were, they were classified as –
AS: Were they sort of soldier, or?
LL: Volunteers, yeah. I forget – they had a special name for them [coughs]. When did he [?] join the services anyway?
AS: Okay.
LL: So that was, one’s in the WAFs and one in the RAF, so I thought ‘I might as well make it a third.’ So I joined the Air Force. But I didn’t realise it when I – I went up to Penarth [emphasis] for an interview and they passed me as a fit for air crew duty. Well flying [emphasis], first of all, then I had to go somewhere else. Oh, we had to do some, go to a place, stay overnight I think, done some exercises to see if you’re fit [emphasis].
AS: Mhm.
LL: ‘Cause you had to be fit to be in the aircrew, if you’re going to fly anyway. And I passed alright. So from then on life carried on like normal, yeah.
AS: So you went up to Penarth, did they give you –
LL: Well, what they do there, they give you a lot of information, like about ranks and things like that, and all the usual ground, what I call the ground work for anybody any service, I mean Navy or Air Force. They still got to recognise you as a cornel or a captain or a corporal, and all the general information about the service you were joining. And that’s what the ground work was, but the flying [emphasis], you start going up for gunners, we went up to somewhere round [?] Scotland, Castle Kennedy, and that’s – we were flying on Anson aircraft then, the Avro Anson. And that only had a turret, a mid upper turret, but it was an Anson towing on the windbags, and you’d have about, what was it? About half a dozen chappies in there. Everybody had a different coloured bullet, so when that bullet went through the bag, the windbag, it would leave some paint. You could tell, tell how many hits you had. So, so when you got back –
AS: Were you any good at it?
LL: When you got back they counted how many little holes and the colour [coughs]. They got your score then, yeah.
AS: Were you any good?
LL: Yeah [emphasis] I thought I was very good. What did I do? Something special up there one day. We changed instructors, who was it? It was laughable really [pause]. It made me laugh at the time, it made me laugh. I was very good with the side-by-side shotgun.
AS: Mhm.
LL: I discovered I think, thanks to listening to the old man talking about in the Home Guard when he was on exercise, what they normally do. You get the gun side to you other [?] and you pass it through, and there’s a time when it stops [emphasis] and then it starts to fall. You fire when it’s on the top, on the apex and then you waited every time. But [coughs] I done this four times out of five, and the [unclear] said ‘oh, we’ll change instructor, instructors,’ and we had a good one in the first place. But, what was it this bloke said something? [Pause] ooh heck, it made me bloody laugh at the time I know that [AS laughs]. Oh Christ – I used to hit for some reason or another, you’d have five [emphasis] bullets to fire through this gun, the turbo [?].
AS: Mhm.
LL: And I hit the fourth one, and he said ‘I bet you a pound you can’t hit this one.’ I says ‘put the gun up [unclear].’ I turned round and it says ‘offices and NCOs should not gamble’ and [laughs] he said ‘you’re a bloody poacher mate’ [AS and LL laugh]. I never [coughs], I never handled a gun before.
AS: Wow.
LL: And yet I was able to do that, you know. Four times out of five, and he looked at him and he says ‘you’re a bloody poacher aren’t you?’ I said ‘I never handled a gun before in all my life.’ But I was watching the old man when he was in the Home Guard and listening to him talking, when they were on exercise and you learn quite a bit that way, yeah.
AS: Mm.
LL: Anyway, what else have you got to go onto? Checked – 20:43
AS: Let’s go back [emphasis] a little bit, before you went to air gunner training –
LL: Well, problem was, six months ground work, what I call ground work, that’s learning all the ranks and all the rules and regulations going into any service. And then six months there ground work, six months flying training. Start off with the Anson, then you went onto the Wellington, Avro Wellington, then up to Winthorpe, Stirlings [emphasis], then you go onto the, what they call the LFS, the Lanc Flying School. That’s where, the first time you sit in a Lancaster. You’re up at RAF Syerston, and you there for – well you’re supposed to be there for a given time, but somebody was, somebody took ill [emphasis] and then they remembered that one of them was the engineer. You didn’t fly – well, you’re not supposed to fly unless you had a full crew, but I, I can’t remember why we – oh, they didn’t need anybody on the Wellingtons, not a flight engineer, he came when we went onto the Stirlings, and then onto the Lancasters [coughs]. And we went into Syserston for that, from there onto the squadron.
AS: Okay.
LL: ‘Cause it was just up the road from Newham [?].
AS: Okay. How did you choose, how did you choose to be an air gunner? Did you do tests?
LL: Do what?
AS: Did you do – did they give you tests to decide if you would be an air gunner or a pilot or?
LL: Erm, no. I think what it was, it started, it started off where they decide [emphasis] you’re in brilliance, you’re intelligent, you’re general [emphasis] knowledge and stuff like that. And oh, you got to be fit. You had to be one hundred percent fit, and I suited everything and they, they said ‘well you qualify for flying duties.’ So that’s what I did. I said ‘oh,’ I didn’t know what aircraft you got to fly in, could have been a tiger moth or, I don’t know. But anyway, we were told we were going to fly Lancasters eventually, on a squadron.
AS: Okay.
LL: Yeah [coughs].
AS: So you were on forty-two course at Castle Kennedy.
LL: Pardon? Yeah [emphasis].
AS: To learn to be a gunner.
LL: Yeah –
AS: And –
LL: And they had – you do your training facing the side of this hangar and on there, there was, you had to chase the path [?] and you had to train the sites of the guns on that path without making the bell ring, because as soon as you hit the line – they had like a roadway, a pathway. These rung the bell as a fault [?] but if you go through straight through it, the two lines, without touching the lines, you got a clear run. I had many clear runs, because you kept on practicing all the time, yeah. But great big, behind the hangars, great big building started at one end, all the bloody way along there, yeah. Shake it mad hoping you didn’t touch the bloody line [AS laughs]. [Coughs] yeah, and that was up at the, now where was that? Oh that was up in Castle Kennedy, Scotland I think, yeah. Somewhere up there.
AS: Okay. And then you, you actually sat in an aeroplane for the first time in your life I guess.
LL: Yeah [emphasis], that was the first aircraft was an Anson, yeah. And that’s the first time I sat in the turret. Although they did have a turret during the training, the groundwork, so you could get used to where the bits and pieces are, how, which way the guns were going to be going, how you line them up and all that sort of thing. That sort of ground work consists of, learning all the basics, I think you could call them, yeah.
AS: And you have to strip the gun and clear stoppages and things?
LL: Oh yeah, you – and, and the thing was this. In case you were, had a failure at high altitude, you had all these flying clothes on, thick gloves like gauntlets [emphasis] and how had to fiddle about wearing them, and if you had a middle of winter now you’d have gloves on. And you just imagine trying to strip that thing down, it was a small parts inside the gun, the 303 [coughs] and you had to strip them down and put them back together again, wearing your gloves.
AS: Where do you put all the pieces when you’re in a turret [LL coughs] at twenty thousand feet?
LL: Oh, this is when you’re in the classroom.
AS: Oh.
LL: You do it all when you’re in the classroom. But [emphasis] you got to shout all the way around you in the turret so you’ve got bugs [?] everywhere. It’s like, it’s like drying, riding a motorbike. You don’t, don’t move your arms like that, you just run handle like that, up and down, that’s all, that’s all there is. It’s all under control, so you just, you don’t move [emphasis], you just move your hands like that. Course looking around all the time.
AS: Is the turret electric or hydraulic?
LL: I think oil [emphasis]. I think oil was the driving force behind it, yeah. It must have been, because they were very worried about any oil leaks when, if you’d been attacked, anything like that. Because you can easily slide on it and injure yourself, ‘cause it is a bit rough inside the aircraft because of all the ribs [?].
AS: Mhm.
LL: And you can easily break an arm, break a leg or something when you steady [?] yourself.
AS: Mm. Did you actually like [emphasis] the flying?
LL: Mm?
AS: When you got into the Anson did you actually like they flying and think ‘this is for me?’
LL: I liked the flying a lot, I really enjoyed that, and especially in the Lanc up there, it’s very comfortable, the seat itself was a strap of fabric, no wider than that but a bit longer, connected from one side to there. And you sat on that thing for anything, eight to nine hours.
AS: Good lord.
LL: Now you’d think, well your backside must have been sore but that strap forms the shape of your backside [unclear] end, and we used to be sitting there for eight or nine hours, longer. I forget what the – I supposed it’s somewhere in there, the longest one, eight and a half hours I think, over Germany, that’s the longest flight we had I think. But you don’t’ feel tired [emphasis] and it’s a lovely feeling, sitting in a lot of bloody clouds, yeah. ‘Cause you don’t know what’s coming the other bloody way.
AS: ‘Cause you faced nearly always the tail?
LL: Yeah.
AS: Yeah, mhm, yeah. When you’d finished on Ansons, was that when you –
LL: Oh –
AS: When you’d finished on Ansons, is that when you, when you were qualified and you got your wings?
LL: Oh, wait a minute [?]. No [coughs] you got your wings when you finished your ground training. The last lesson you get, I forget what it’s all about, but then the old chap says ‘right, you’re now classified as sergeants. You’re, you’ve jumped all those ranks just because you going into aircrew, and also your pay goes up as well.’ So it makes a vast difference when you – that’s going from Bridgnorth in Shropshire which is the last of the ground [emphasis] training. You then go up to Castle Kennedy in Scotland for the, to start your, no, to start your flying, proper gun training then, yeah [coughs].
AS: Mm. When you got your wings and your promotion –
LL: Yeah.
AS: Was there a big parade? Did any – did your relatives come or?
LL: Erm [pause] and where was it? We were in Bridgnorth, I know that [papers shuffle]. Oh, no I think we were in the classroom in Bridgnorth, that was RAF Bridgnorth, yeah. And when the, when the ground course finished, the instructor, he then informed you that you were then made sergeant, you jumped all the ranks and you were made a sergeant and your pay went up as well. [Papers shuffling] so that was a good thing, yeah.
AS: Yeah, [laughs] absolutely. So you went then I suppose on leave for a while, did you?
LL: Erm, I think we might have had a, a long weekend or something like that. Ah yeah [coughs] ‘cause I went home that weekend when we passed out. Now who did I meet? I met somebody – unimportant anyway.
AS: Mm.
LL: Walking through town, a pal a long time ago, a school kid, yeah. I’d gone – I had a bit of a long, a long weekend [emphasis] I think they called it when I went home. And then from there we went from, I went from Swansea all the way up by train to Scotland.
AS: To Castle Kennedy, yeah. Okay, and when you finished Castle Kennedy –
LL: Yeah.
AS: It was round about the time of D-Day. When –
LL: Well, I was never going to teach [?] [coughs] but if it’s in there, mm.
AS: Shall we have a pause for a minute?
[Tape paused and restarted.]
AS: Right Les, we pick up again. I’d like to talk about the OTU and the Wellingtons and –
LL: Yeah.
AS: And crewing up. When you got to the OTU how did you form a crew? How did the crew all [LL laughs] get together?
LL: It was brilliant [emphasis]. You never, you never seen such a process – you couldn’t invent such a thing. I [unclear] gunner, Bill Jenkinson. I suppose – oh, I was behind the door, that’s my favourite bit, behind the door. And Bill was on that side. I said to him, I said to Bill, I said ‘oh, have you got anybody else with you? Why not grab a wireless operator or something like that?’ ‘No,’ I said ‘let’s go and have a look, see what we can see,’ and walked into all these chaps of pilots and navigators, and when [unclear] barracks, and when they were in this long line I saw a pair of feet sticking right out. I said ‘let’s have a look and see what that is, he looks a big bloke.’ [AS laughs] and that was the skipper, a New Zealander.
AS: What’s his name?
LL: And we walked up to him and said ‘you got any crew members yet.’ ‘No.’ I said ‘well you got two gunners,’ ‘oh that’s a good start’ [AS laughs]. We picked up like that [emphasis]. It was long [?], if somebody fancied you, it was – if you didn’t like them then you just passed on. But ‘oh, he looks a friendly’ – ‘I know him, I had a couple of pints with him,’ like that. That’s how you picked up a crew.
AS: So when –
LL: You wouldn’t believe – it was so lackadaisical the way everybody come together as a crew, and yet it worked beautifully.
AS: So you chose your skipper because of the size of his feet?
LL: Yeah [AS laughs]. It’s rather strange how seven people like that, complete strangers, can come together and form a crew. And all more or less you work and play in, with one aircraft, it’s brilliant. And yet you just knitted together and formed a complete crew, yeah.
AS: And when you’d done this dating [?], did you go out and socialise to get to know each other?
LL: Oh, oh yeah. Oh, I’ll tell you a funny thing happened, it’ll make you laugh. When the course – now what was that called? Ah [pause] –
AS: At the OTU?
LL: Upper Heyford.
AS: At the OTU, yeah.
LL: Erm, OTU.
AS: Mhm.
LL: We’d finished the course and everybody passed and we had a party in the sergeants mess, and the – we had lots of drinking going on and all that. And old Bill the rear gunner, he said ‘that bird from the sergeants mess, the cook, she’s caught my eye. I’m going to chat her up’ he said ‘when we finish.’ Well, it was sometime later on I did catch a glimpse of him. Of course he had to see her the following night or something, so I said to him, I said ‘oh, how did you get on last night?’ He just lay on the bed fully clothed looking miserable as sin. I said ‘what did you do?’ I said ‘what did you get?’ [AS laughs]. And he fell silent for a while. I said ‘you must have had some – you must have done something’ or another, similar comment like that. I said ‘what did you get?’ ‘That’s it on the table’ he said, chunk of bread and a chunk of cheese [AS and LL laugh]. I said ‘all that fuss for nothing,’ he said ‘a chunk of cheese and’ – right in the middle of the table. We enjoyed it anyway, we had, I think we had a bottle of beer hidden away somewhere, but it was enjoyable, yeah.
AS: Mhm. Was the flying at the OTU, was it very intensive? Did you do a lot of flying?
LL: Operation – yeah [emphasis]. There is – you do all sorts of trips, daytime and at night time. Short ones, ops, what do you call them? Bumping and something or another –
AS: Circuits and bumps.
LL: Ah yeah that’s it, good, circuits and bumps. You do a lot of that, day and night so that the pilot can get used to flying the aircraft. That’s more than anything else, because there’s nothing you can do from the gunner’s point of view at night time, you can’t see nothing. Not a thing, it’s completely black. You can look down, you can see one light or anything. And the only lights you see is the runway lights, and you can see them quite a distance away. But that’s the only thing to guide [emphasis] you, and it’s up to the navigator to know exactly where you are, so you learn from them, and I should imagine they got some beacons [emphasis] dotted all over the country so, and each one is tuned differently, so you tune, the navigator tunes into them. That’s how they guide you down a narrow alleyway because you’ve got flying, aircraft flying in all directions during the war. You could have a collision anytime [emphasis], you never know it, but that’s it, that’s what it’s all about.
AS: Mm. When you were at the OTU you were – were you straight away confident straight away that you’d chosen a good pilot?
LL: Erm, I think we did. We had a couple of rough landings, bumps, but like everybody else the more you do your job, the more efficient you become. Like you learn – I kept on missing [emphasis] when I was flying over the target, and fair enough the pilot of the, I think it was the Anson, he was very patient because they tell you off in a, a personal way, not giving you a good bollocking but advising [emphasis] you is a proper phrase, what you’ve got to do so everything goes along smoothly like that, yeah. Good enjoyable, I enjoyed it, sitting in there.
AS: Mm, okay. When you moved onto the OTU as a crew, where there many accidents among the other crews at OTU?
LL: [Coughs] Well [pause]. We were at – nearly every [emphasis] station, RAF station we went, we went with an aircraft went missing. Up at [unclear] Castle Kennedy, an Anson went missing over the, not the North Sea, the West Coast.
AS: The Irish Sea?
LL: Yeah, ah that’s, Irish Sea, yeah.
AS: Mm.
LL: He went missing up there. Next station – oh, then we, there was a Wellington. Oh, the Wellington went and crashed somewhere in mid Wales and it must have gone somewhere into a bog [emphasis] because it, it sunk out of sight, nobody could find it. So wherever it is it’s down there rotting. And then we got to – nothing happened up at Newark, Winthorpe. Oh, the Lanc finishing school, that’s the first time you’re in a Lancaster. Joining the circuit I spotted a black shadow on the ground of an aircraft, and you could practically recognise it as a Lancaster. But the strange thing about it was, as if some yob [emphasis] had been there with a spray gun, blood red, and gone all the way around it, framed it just like that. This black shadow on the ground, in line with the perimeter track. And just a line of red all the way round it. They reckon that the black was a plane, the red was the remains of a crew, yeah, when it exploded. There’s nothing, there’s nothing left to show, it was a crew there, it’s just that red mark.
AS: Good lord. We’ll pause for a second.
[Tape paused and restarted.]
AS: Lesley, you were talking about lights, or not having any lights at night –
LL: Yeah.
AS: Could you see the exhausts from your own aircraft, from the Wellington or the Lancaster when you were flying?
LL: I don’t think – I wasn’t aware of it –
AS: Mhm.
LL: But I don’t think, I don’t think we, no I don’t think we did bother with it. We never saw anything because [coughs] I think that the flame from the engine would pass through the back end of it and disappear.
AS: Mhm.
LL: So you did – I don’t think, I can never remember seeing any light or flame or, coming from the engines.
AS: Okay.
LL: And I think they had an extended exhaust pipe [coughs] and it goes under the wing rather than over the top. So it’s out of sight [?] anyway, yeah [coughs].
AS: Yeah. There were two of you as gunners, there was you and Bill Jenkinson.
LL: Yeah.
AS: How did you decide who was gonna be the rear gunner and who was gonna be –
LL: Oh, well, well we were in a bedroom like this, a long hut. A peace [emphasis] time building, brickwork. Bill was on that side of the door, I was behind it.
AS: Mhm.
LL: And I had a look around and Bill was the nearest and I said ‘you got anybody to go up with you Bill?’
AS: Mm, mm.
LL: ‘No not yet’ he said, ‘but I want to be a rear gunner.’ ‘Oh that’s alright,’ I said, ‘I’ll take mid upper gunner position then’ –
AS: Oh so you decided between you?
LL: Yeah.
AS: Yeah, okay.
LL: He said ‘alright, that’s [coughs] that’s what I want to be, rear gunner.’ So that’s how we decided.
AS: Mm, okay. So you did a fair bit of flying at the OTU on Wellingtons.
LL: Yeah.
AS: Were they good, were they good aircraft, or were they pretty ropey at that time?
LL: No, oh [emphasis]. They must have been reliable because I think [emphasis] now you come to mention it, a lot of them were [coughs] exit [?] squadron.
AS: Mhm.
LL: And that had to be kept in a good condition, especially going on operations. The good maintenance on that aircraft was carried on I think through the training sessions. So you did have reliable aircraft – I can’t ever remember us having, if we ever – well you have a stimulated three engine landing for practice with a pilot [coughs], see how it handles landing and taking off.
AS: okay. So you were on forty-four course at –
LL: Sixty, sixty one.
AS: Okay. The, the course you were on at 16 OTU that was forty-four course. Did you, did you pass out from there, did you have a passing out parade when you finished at OTU?
LL: Erm [pause] Upper Heywood.
AS: Mm.
LL: OTU, operational training – no [emphasis] apart from having this, this party at the end of the course when Bill and all this cook from the sergeants mess catching his eye [AS laughs]. That’s the only incident I can remember [emphasis] in there.
AS: Okay.
LL: It was a very quiet sort of a station, yeah.
AS: Okay. And then you went on leave [emphasis], did you?
LL: I think we must have because I remember – I went on, possibly a long weekend because I went home to Swansea and I had to get on, what do you call the, they call the Coastal Train down there. It goes all the way round the outside of Wales until you get up into Scotland. You didn’t go across the midlands, I think they were kept clear for munitions [?] and all so you go on this track [coughs], going through small village all the way up to go up to Scotland.
AS: That must have taken forever [emphasis].
LL: Yeah, it does. But it’s surprising how quickly time goes when you’re moving, you know. And you tend to remember [emphasis] places like that. You, you seen it in your school days on a map where certain places are, so like ‘oh this is so and so,’ ‘that’s so and so.’ You go, time soon goes, yeah. Oh take my tea away, too much, too much of that.
AS: Mhm. Then after the OTU you went onto Stirlings at the Heavy Conversion Unit at Winthorpe.
LL: Er, yeah, Winthorpe, that’s where we were Stirlings.
AS: Mhm.
LL: Very, very quiet, not much happened on that station to my, to my knowledge anyway.
AS: Mhm.
LL: No I can’t think of any [coughs] –
AS: But at –
LL: Winthorpe –
AS: Mm.
LL: Stirlings, no I don’t think much happened on there. Very quiet station.
AS: Okay, mhm.
LL: At Winthorpe, yeah. Near Newark, yeah.
AS: Mhm.
LL: That’s it.
AS: But then, then did you start doing exercises with fighter aircraft in the sky, on the Stirlings?
LL: Erm –
AS: The fighter affiliation [?] –
LL: We didn’t do it on the Wellingtons because it’s got no mid upper turret, so the Stirling would have been the first aircraft. No hang on. The Wellington would have been a job for the rear gunner, there’s no mid upper gunner turret, so I used to stand at the astrodome and looking out possibly [unclear] one of the navigator might want it or somebody want some information. You can see everything but there’s nothing to see, it’s all black. So what they expect you to see in the darkness like that I don’t know. But I had a sometimes it was a longish journey and other times it was just bumps, bumps and whatever, yeah [coughs].
AS: Mhm. So that’s just over a month on Stirlings from mid October to mid November 1944. I suppose pulling you together as a crew still.
LL: Yeah, well you go from Wellingtons which has only got one active turret, you go onto a Stirling then which has got the two.
AS: Mm.
LL: It’s got three turrets actually – one in the doors, mid upper turret and a tail gunner, yeah.
AS: Mhm.
LL: But there’s only two gunners there anyway.
AS: And so does the bomb aimer use the front turret?
LL: Yeah, Well sometimes if necessary he can [emphasis] get up there if you got time [coughs].
AS: And then you went on, for a short time to the Lancaster Finishing School.
LL: Yeah.
AS: Right.
LL: Yeah, yeah we passed away [?] – yeah the Lanc Finishing School is the last time, oh the first time you sit in [emphasis] a Lancaster, ‘cause then that prepares you for your next station which for us was just up the road in Lincoln. That’s the only place, the first place you sit in a turret of a Lancaster, so the Lancaster Finishing School. That’s the whole idea of it, introduce you to the aircraft you’re going to fly, yeah, which is a good thing really, yeah.
AS: And how did that feel? Did that feel –
LL: I rather liked it myself, yeah, quite pleasant. It was a nice steady aircraft when you were flying, you know, it was rather stable, and often you see them bumping about but that one, it seems to hold itself dead level the whole time. It’s pretty well set up. I think that applies to a lot of them during the war.
AS: And that was a really modern aeroplane then.
LL: Yeah, yeah. And according to the book, it was a mark three I believe that we ended up with up on the squadron, ‘cause you had all the latest radar equipment and all that stuff in it.
AS: Mhm. But nothing special happened at Lanc Finishing School that you recall?
LL: Erm, apart from seeing that shadow with the red painted on, that was a very quiet station, yeah. You do, you do day and night flying in it. But you can’t see a blooming thing at night, anyway.
AS: Even though you’ve got the best view at the top of the aeroplane?
LL: Yeah you can’t see – well, people don’t realise what a blackout is. A blackout is every [emphasis] light [emphasis] is out [emphasis].
AS: Mhm.
LL: It’s complete darkness, and if you happen to show a light it’s so quiet that you can hear somebody shout out ‘put that bloody light out,’ or so ‘shut that doors, shut that window,’ something like that.
AS: Mhm.
LL: Because it’s so black [emphasis] that you spotted straight away – you go ‘well what the hell’s that then?’ Or ‘some buggar’s opened the window’ or something like that.
AS: But when you’re airborne with the stars and the moon, could you see horizontally or above you? [LL coughs] Could you see other aircraft in the sky, for instance?
LL: [Pause] You could see the horizon, the dark earth and if it’s a moonlit light you could see the curve of the earth and the difference – the horizon [emphasis], you could see the difference. Now, an interesting thing happened there. Talking about UFOs, now this is true this. There was a starlit night; you could see the horizon and the end of the darkness and all of the stars. And I thought ‘that’s funny, that star’s moving faster than the others.’ I kept on coming around to it [coughs]. That one star, that I believe could have been one of these foreign things, a UFO I believe. I tell you why, [talking in the background]. Yeah, it’s rather strange, nobody speaks [emphasis] when you’re in an aircraft, everybody’s concentrating on the job. You’re a navigator you’re concentrating, engineer, and all that you concentrate on – and I was looking and I thought ‘he’s moving.’ And I followed that. As it got overhead, I heard – nobody speaks [emphasis] when you’re flying, and this voice, I heard this voice as clear as you were talking. ‘We’re of no danger to you.’ So where did that voice come from? Nobody spoke, you never speak unless you’re telling the navigator tells the pilot ‘oh we’ve got to turn right here, and our starboard’ or something like that, or somebody passing a message, that’s the only time you speak. And you see somebody spoke just [emphasis] as clear as if it was in the aircraft with you. ‘We’re of no danger to you,’ so where did the voice come from?
AS: Wow. Did you discuss this with your crew later?
LL: No, well the thing is, you never mentioned – and this is strange. You never mentioned anything inusual [emphasis] because you then put everybody on nerves end –
AS: Mm.
LL: Thinking ‘now what’s he on about?’
AS: Yeah.
LL: But then the next thing you know, ‘what the hell’s he bloody on about, silly, he bloody drunk again,’ something like that. But, so you kept everything to yourself, and this is why it’s so quiet in the aircraft, the only time you’d speak if you’re passing instructions to anybody.
AS: It sounds like you were a very disciplined [emphasis] crew. Did your skipper keep tight discipline and make –
LL: Erm, well it seemed that we were completely at ease. I can’t remember the pilot or anybody for that sort of losing their temper. It’s rather strange, as if you’re entering another world. It’s very calm [emphasis] in there, when you’re flying, whether it’s the quietness, the only sound you can hear is the engines, but then you got your helmet on and you got your earphones, so you blocked out all the sound, the external sounds. So the only thing you can hear is when anybody speaks inside [emphasis] the aircraft. Otherwise it was dead quiet. It’s like this place now, yeah.
AS: Can you hear your own breathing?
LL: Hmm?
AS: Can you hear your own breathing on your mask? Checked – 59:41
LL: Ah now you come to mention, you did sometimes if you got excited, yeah. You’re bound to, yeah, and oh, another time was if your oxygen tube, pipe got disconnected, then you can hear all sorts of things then. Bad connection [?] from you to the turret, it’s complete, you can’t hear nothing else ‘cause it’s all coming through there, and what goes there comes from the person who’s either flying it or the crew, other members of the crew, yeah.
AS: So did you have this then, did your oxygen come disconnected?
LL: Yeah, it did. Now what happened there then? [Pause] oxygen lack at high altitude is very dangerous. A lot of things can go wrong, you’re maybe doing things that you would not normally do [coughs]. But, so you do take care of all your equipment at all times, to make sure everything is working right, and every switch is in the right position sort of thing.
AS: Mm.
LL: You got to be very careful when you’re flying.
AS: Did you check on each other to make sure you were all –
LL: Oh, oh, I’ll tell you what, I used to regular but you do it in a manner that you’re not scaring them, not upsetting them. ‘You alright down there Bill? You warm enough?’ Some remark like that.
AS: Yeah.
LL: You didn’t agitate any problem or anything like that, you kept quiet. Because anybody under tension could miss things. But when it’s all quiet like that and you’re concentrating you were quite safe I think, yeah.
AS: Mm. When you were on the ground as a crew, did you practice your drills? Your dingy drills, your evacuation drills?
LL: Well, Bridgnorth was some of the ground staff. Oh we did some dingy [emphasis] drill up at [unclear] at Castle Kennedy in Scotland. You cling onto an imitation, well a platform which represented the wing of the aircraft, and you want to jump [emphasis]. You’re in a pond, and then you had to get to the raft. Now, with all the flying clothes on, everything, you’re heavy, and you’ve got to get there as quickly as you can, otherwise – well it’s not all that deep anyway just sufficient to wet yourself or so, all your clothes. And you just go in and sort of change and put dry clothes on.
AS: Mhm, when you finished, or any time really, did you really think about ‘well, I’ll be going bombing soon?’ Did you think that you were about to go to war?
LL: No, not to my knowledge. I never – flying was just flying to me, and you look forward [emphasis] to it, it’s getting you off the ground. You join the Air Force to flying an air, to flying in aircraft, not to keep marching on the bloody square all the time.
AS: So even on operations you were keen to go flying?
LL: Oh, oh yeah. Never where you are – you wanted to get away from the, from the monotony of class, in the classes, because quite often you get different instructors but the subject is always the same. They drilling [emphasis] it into you, they, and they’ve got to succeed in getting that knowledge into you because it could save your life, and not only you but the aircraft and the rest of the crew.
AS: So going on operations was almost a relief [emphasis] to stop –
LL: It was in a way [pause]. There was a – I forget what happened, but we were on a very heavy raid. Loads of bloody shells everywhere, exploding all around you. I found that – now this is stupid [emphasis]. I was in an aircraft with five or six tonnes of high explosive bombs. I was trying to stand up in the mid upper turret, shaking like a leaf on a tree, shivering, frightened like hell, and it, well. It’s like the noise is like flying in a thunderstorm, a very heavy thunderstorm. And then the bumping [emphasis] about of bumps from the shells [?] is like when they go on these rapid waterfalls, you’re bumping all over the place – what was the other thing? Very calm sort of thing. I suddenly – I was shaking like mad, and then as quickly as it appeared, the condition disappeared completely. Instead of being frightened or scared stiff and god knows what, I just sat down there in amongst all this noise and what have you, I just sat and relaxed. And as if somebody had said ‘welcome to the club, you’re a survivor. You lost the fear of death.’ And there it was, in exactly the same conditions, shaking like mad and all that, I just sat down like we are now, and as if I was on a training flight. And all this going on outside, just outside the door [emphasis], and I just sat down there as if nothing was wrong. How your brain bloody works I don’t know, but I just sat down there, still the same conditions, but I wasn’t worried.
AS: Mm.
LL: It’s funny really, yeah, ‘cause – just normal training flight and I must be bloody mad or something [AS laughs].
AS: And you were fine from then on?
LL: Yeah.
AS: Yeah.
LL: We were going on a raid, I forget where it was, somewhere, somewhere heavy [emphasis] I know that. And I know one thing that – in the, oh, we got a 50, 61 Squadron newsletter that comes out once every three months I think. Somebody wrote an article about what happened over at Hamburg on this – it’s on there, the raid during the 61 Squadron I think [papers shuffling]. Oh, some bloke describing all the anti-aircraft shells everywhere. And these German [papers continue to shuffle] jets in amongst the aircraft. What did he – and someone else wrote it, that’s what drew my attention to it. It was completely wrong [emphasis]. He made it up, because the day in question, the 9th of the 4th, not one anti-aircraft shell was fired, and the only aircraft we saw was a German jet, the 262, and that flew head on, straight through the middle, plonk. Right through this group, turned round and knocked down three aircraft. We didn’t see the fourth go down but you’re in a group of six sevens, forty-two, six across and six behind them below, and that fighter knocked down three on one, on our side. You got the, I think the bombing leader on that end comes up to us and it’s a tail end Charlie sort of thing [coughs]. You there [?] to form the six in the front. That thing went down, but that thing [?] got shot on the following day with the Yanks. They damaged this aircraft, they had to find a place to land, and when they was looking and doing something with the controls of the aircraft, he didn’t see the crater in the middle of the runway. Straight in and up he went. That was the following day.
AS: That was the German pilot?
LL: Yeah.
AS: So, so with your six sevens of forty-two aircraft, that was both squadrons flying together, 50 and 61?
LL: Well, it was the son of the late rear gunner, he [pause] – did he phone or ring, write a letter? [Pause] I forget now.
AS: Okay, we’ll, we’ll come back to that later.
LL: [Unclear] no we’ll come back to it.
AS: Mm. So you were forty-two, in daylight, flying in formation.
LL: Yeah.
AS: Okay, so that must have been the two squadrons together.
LL: Ah, ah I know, I know. In that logbook, that’s all the operations and all the flying we did as a crew.
AS: Mhm.
LL: No other squadron is mentioned, but the son of the rear gunner, he must have something, telly or something, internet. He found that the Dambusters are not mentioned in there, but the Dambusters and us were on the same raids.
AS: Okay.
LL: And how I know that, we were on the one raid and I pointed out to the – it was Bill started it first. He said ‘look at that light down there’ he said ‘down on the port side.’ And he said something about ‘possibly turn back soon because it looks like the engines were not coping with the load.’ And we followed this progress, you didn’t focus on it you just casually glanced – it kept on coming nearer and nearer. But when that thing came near enough, we thought it was an extra fuel tank you know, to set fire to buildings, but that was the latest bomb that the RAF aircraft would, could carry. What was it, twenty-two thousand pounds?
AS: Is it the, the Tall Boy was it?
LL: Yeah.
AS: Yes.
LL: And that’s what they called it. But we followed that and gradually, so it came level with us, and you know when people bail out of an aircraft they travel at the same speed as the aircraft, and same applies to your bomb load, because when that plane gradually comes up dead level with us, wing tip to wing tip, the release of such a weight, that plane disappeared. I couldn’t see it, I couldn’t bend my head back to see if they were overhead, but it just disappeared. And I was left with a view of this great big bomb flying level with our [AS laughs] wingtip. If we had a camera, nobody would have believed it was a fake picture, but it was the – I’d heard of [?] the people travel the same speed as the aircraft when they bail out, so that bomb load does and gradually [emphasis] it sinks. But for what seemed like an eternity it just stood there level with the wing and then it dropped. The size of that thing there, my gosh [emphasis], long as this bloody room nearly.
AS: Well I think [emphasis] the biggest one was twenty-two thousand pounds was it?
LL: Yeah that’s it, that was, that was this Dambusters aircraft [coughs] because a raid is made up of possibly a dozen or more squadrons all different ones, all with different purposes and all with different buildings to go to, stores or oil depots or things like that.
AS: Yeah, could you remember, could you talk me through a typical raid, from getting up in the morning to going to briefing, what was it like? [LL coughs] say a daytime raid.
LL: Well you get up in the morning – well more often than not your day, your own [emphasis] day starts about dinner time, because you’d been out, say, the night before, so you’ve had your kip and you go down to the sergeants mess for lunch. And then you got your briefing [emphasis] in the afternoon, and then similar, if it’s a late takeoff it’s normally about tea time or something like that.
AS: What was the briefing like?
LL: Erm, well they give you all the details, the name of the target – well it’s more for navigation than anything else. Bu you’re also advised that there are certain airfields about with various fighters in there. And at that point of the war [?] it was mainly German jets, the 262. And that’s the only time we ever – I’ve actually been that close it’s practically this distance away from here to the other side of the passage. And I should imagine that pilot, he would have knocked down the three outside ours, and that was I think two 61 Squadron aircraft went down and a 50, and I could imagine now [emphasis], I didn’t think of it then, I could imagine the bloke swinging his aircraft around and lining it up, and he weren’t that far away, he couldn’t have bloody missed us, and I should imagine that as he was able to press the button, I told him, the pilot, to take aversive action, and the pilot caught up and eighty-one [?] straight through, yeah. Carried on, he knocked down that three besides us and that was it, yeah.
AS: Mm. The luck of the draw.
LL: Sometimes it gets exciting but otherwise it’s boring [emphasis].
AS: Mhm.
LL: You’re just sitting there doing nothing. Nothing you can do about it, no.
AS: When you were flying on daylights –
LL: Yeah.
AS: Did you have fighter escort?
LL: No, never saw any.
AS: Okay.
LL: They might have been out of range, some distance away not to distract your attention, but I could, could never ever, 1943, forty-four, no forty-five –
AS: Forty-five.
LL: February forty-five was the first raid we’d done. Never had I seen anything there to protect us, you had to protect yourselves.
AS: So you weren’t, you weren’t told at briefing that there’d be –
LL: Yeah.
AS: You weren’t told at the briefing that there would be fighter cover or anything?
LL: Yeah, that’s all you, that’s all you relied on, whatever the squadron leader tells you during your briefing.
AS: Mm.
LL: Nothing else, target and all this and that, and they tell you the airfields with various aircraft, but at that time of the war, it ended a couple of days later anyway [emphasis], and [coughs] I’ll tell you what, in the areas [?] sort of thing, give you some advice, but you never took too much notice of it, because you know in about two, three days the war’s gonna end.
AS: So when you, so when you went on ops you knew this was just about the finish did you?
LL: Yeah, for us it was a limited period of time from the beginning of February I think it was until what was it, May?
AS: May, yeah.
LL: Yeah, that’s my wartime experience, that, the last three months, yeah.
AS: So –
LL: It was bad enough then –
AS: Yeah.
LL: When you consider fifty-six, fifty-eight youngsters lost, thousand [emphasis] lost like that.
AS: Mhm.
LL: Great number of men, and all youngsters, yeah.
AS: And still being killed at the very end.
LL: Yeah, yeah.
AS: Like your three aircraft.
LL: Yeah.
AS: Yeah.
LL: Yeah, practically the last, last day but one, down they went. I did see one of those Lancs splitting off. Either the pilot, mid upper gunner was sound asleep or something, or the bomb aimer above wasn’t with it because that aircraft broke right in half [emphasis], with [unclear] where the mid upper turret, mid upper turret gunner must have been killed instantly because the aircraft broke in half and the tail end gone down there swinging like a pendulum.
AS: Mm.
LL: And the whole front of it just went straight down. I don’t think any of them, anybody got out of it alive, I think they lost. Another aircraft was shot down further down and out of that, what was that, twenty, twenty, only a few survived, all the rest gone. There aren’t any survivors – once they start going down you can’t get out of them, yeah. That’s a big problem.
AS: Hmm. So still really dangerous with the flak and the fighters.
LL: Yeah you, well you did worry about it I think internally, but I think it soon passes over once you get used to it I think. You get accustomed to all this noise and bumping that goes on, and you accept it as part of the job, simple as that, yeah.
AS: Okay. We were talking about a typical mission. After the briefing you’d have your meal and then what would happen?
LL: Well erm [pause] first thing out to the aircraft. What you do there from then on, you were double checking all what everybody else had done. You check all your equipment, navigator and wireless operator, everything, everyone checks everything is okay. And then you just hang about, have a chat with the ground crew, discuss something like that. You just spending time until a tank [?] would takeoff. Comes on usually has after a meal or sometime in the afternoon, yeah [zipping noise].
AS: How did you get out to the aircraft?
LL: Oh, well we had transport [zipping noise]. We had one of these little round Land Rover things, you never walked because moving about on foot you’re sweating, and that’s the last thing you want to get into an aircraft and you gonna fly high and you’re sweating, because then you really get cold [emphasis]. It’s like when you have a bath in the winter, it’s not so comfortable as having a bath in the summer. It’s still having a bath [coughs] and you’re still flying but if you’re sweating you’re much colder. [Coughs] it’s a bloody nuisance this is.
AS: Did your flying kit generally keep you warm?
LL: Yeah, yeah. It was electrically operated, like yeah – oh it was like a pair of overalls [emphasis] you put on completely. Under your – oh, it was outside your trousers but I think you had your jacket – oh you had all your flying clothes on, thick, thick like sheep’s wool uniform –
AS: Mhm.
LL: All over you to keep you warm. And you wore mittens or gloves, gauntlets, they were plugged in as well. It was like an electric seat and that kept you warm when you were flying.
AS: Okay.
LL: So it wasn’t too bad.
AS: And some of your trips were quite long weren’t they?
LL: Oh yeah. I done eight and a half hours I think, or was it nine? But they’re not as long as some of these people have done, they’ve gone further and flying for ten or twelve hours.
AS: Mhm. And Nuremburg, that’s a long one.
LL: Yeah. I think eight and a half or nine and a half was the longest I think we done. It’s recorded in there anyway, somewhere.
AS: Mm. A really basic question is how did you use the loo, or did you, in the aeroplane?
LL: How did you?
AS: Use the toilet in the aeroplane? With all this suit [emphasis] on.
LL: Ah, now that’s a big problem. I never can remember, I never did do anything. Because the last thing you do, usually after a meal, you dive into the toilet and you get rid of all your problems down there [AS laughs]. And then – you got to be relaxed before you get in the aircraft. Remember you don’t want any distractions of any description.
AS: Mhm.
LL: That’s the only way I can put that, yeah.
AS: Changing tack a little bit, your skipper was commissioned.
LL: Yeah.
AS: Did that make a difference to the way the crew operated?
LL: No, he was still a skipper to us.
AS: Mhm.
LL: Mm, number – I think – well no, don’t forget you’re flying together, you’re practically living together, you don’t necessarily use the same sergeants mess because you’re not supposed to fly, what was it? A four engine aircraft, say a Stirling, a pilot must have – I don’t think the pilot was allowed to fly one of them unless he was a pilot or flying officer [coughs]. And when you got onto the Lancasters as if there was an unwritten law. You can’t fly in these aircraft unless you’re a flight lieutenant.
AS: Really?
LL: Yeah. And straight away, you move from one station to another and you gain all those ranks, and it’s the same as when we passed out at a training centre. You go from the lowest rank in the RAF to a sergeant, with an increase in pay which is a good thing, yeah.
AS: Did you, did you – what did you feel about bombing at the time? Was it just a job or did you feel sympathy for the people underneath, or?
LL: Erm, bear in mind that at that time I was living in Swansea and we were going through a Blitz over there.
AS: Mm.
LL: And they say that you dump [?] the bomb that’s going to kill you, you don’t hear that coming down. But you can’t get any nearer than about a hundred yards and you can still hear it, because I think it was at, what I remember, this chap must have been a doctor, and his wife and a son, and they were in a bungalow and that disappeared, and that was only a hundred yards away. But you heard this noise like a whistling sound, and that was it on its way down, the bomb on its way down. There was nothing left, there was a great big hole there and that’s all that was left of that little bungalow.
AS: In Swansea?
LL: Yeah, and that was during the Blitz, yeah. A bit of a noisy place down there. And we weren’t even in the centre of the town, we were on the edge of it, only about a well, a mile, maybe a mile and half from the centre of the town. Otherwise it was just a distant banging that goes on [coughs].
AS: Mm. And then at the end of May, operations, well, operations stopped. You finished operational flying in May 1954.
LL: Yeah.
AS: What happened to you after that?
LL: Interesting. The squadron got rid of its Lancasters. It changed over to the Lincolns. Now you might know, the Lancaster had a mid upper turret, the Lincoln hadn’t. So all the mid upper gunners had to remuster, and you had a discussion ‘where you going to go to?’ Sometimes the officers required certain people at certain stations, but more often than not they remuster to go to Marsham [?] to learn to drive [coughs]. Because don’t forget we were only kids at the time, only eighteen, so the more you learnt the better, and this is how I come to end up in Marsham [?] learning to drive.
AS: Okay.
LL: And that was a – what was I then? I left the flying when I was well, eighteen, I was still eighteen then, yeah. Yeah that’s when I went over to Marsham [?] and I’ve been in the air ever since, yeah.
AS: When you remustered, you kept your rank –
LL: Yeah, yeah you kept your rank and your pay.
AS: And your badge?
LL: Yeah, and the badge [coughs]. I never know, never knew where my wing went, my air gunner’s wing, and the length of ribbons like I got on the photograph.
AS: Mhm.
LL: Somebody must have thrown them out, I don’t know where. I used to keep a lot of the stuff altogether like we did with this.
AS: Mhm.
LL: But where they’ve gone to – they’ve disappeared now, anyway.
AS: Mhm. So you remustered as a driver in the Air Force.
LL: Yeah.
AS: And then where did you get posted to after that?
LL: Ah, where, Marsham [?]. I remember being interviewed with a friendly officer. He said ‘right, now’ he said, ‘we got to get posted now. What about going down to St Athan’s? That’s in Wales.’ I said ‘no good going down there, pubs are closed on Sundays’ [AS laughs]. That’s all I could answer, then he looked through some books around. ‘Bristol’ he said.’ ‘Ooh that’s alright’ I said, ‘I got a niece or a relative still down there in Bristol,’ I said ‘we could go down there.’ ‘Pucklechurch’ he said, that was a transport maintenance station and we used to do a lot of this, taking the vehicle, RAF vehicles from Pucklechurch and I think it’s up to Quedgeley [emphasis], place near Gloucester?
AS: Mm.
LL: I used to do that run quite often, and this is funny. Now then, what was required by the mechanics, whatever was on that list, you had to bring that vehicle in. You take the vehicle out that had been repaired and restored, and you bring another back, so you didn’t have an idle journey. And I came back, all sorts of private cars, officers cars, and all. And you know what those Queen Mary’s are?
AS: Yes, mhm.
LL: The long aircraft carriers. I had to bring one of them back [coughs]. You had a building – on the station, Pucklechurch, you had a building, car park was this side, had this, I had this car, this Queen Mary, and I must have remembered what the driving instructor had said. ‘Pause briefly, have a look what sort of route you’re going to take, if you’re getting the vehicle out [emphasis] of the car park. And you’d get so far and close round [?] to the bend, and then you start turning,’ so you were lined up ready to go on. And I thought ‘well briefly I did that’ but in reverse, and I paused very slowly and I thought ‘I’ve gotta go there, there, there, there.’ I levelled [?] then lined myself up – I didn’t move the vehicle, just looked. ‘Right go on then, right God, I’ve worked the route out how to go out backwards with this Queen Mary,’ I went all the way around and went all the way in. Never touched the side [AS laughs] and all of a sudden I heard this voice. ‘Loosemore you’re a liar,’ well I thought ‘how’s that?’ I looked round, couldn’t see anybody, and I heard this voice again. And there was this, I think it was the transport officer and he said ‘you’re a bloody liar, you tell anybody who’s just done that they’ll call you a bloody liar mate.’ I didn’t have the heart to tell him that I’d never driven a Queen Mary before, and I just didn’t want to shut him down [?], go so far and backed up and that was dead [emphasis] in line. I could see the pillars of the windscreen, between the windscreen and it was all in, dead in line. And that’s what that transport officer was shouting.
AS: Mm.
LL: ‘You tell anybody you just done that,’ and I was dead [emphasis] in line. And he wouldn’t believe me, wouldn’t believe me.
AS: Brilliant.
LL: I didn’t have the heart to tell him I’d never driven one before [AS laughs], mm.
AS: When, just as you left the squadron –
LL: Yeah.
AS: What was it like leaving your crew? Did they go on without you?
LL: Ah, no. That was rather strange that. I don’t think, no. It was proper procedure, because you were guided towards an office and all this rubbish, what I call rubbish piled on the floor. The officer then said ‘dump all you want to get rid of, take what you want,’ just like that. And there was all sorts of stuff, but your uniform, you didn’t want that, a lot of stuff straight on the pile. But if there was anything you wanted you just grabbed. I grabbed a couple of towels, that’s about all I wanted. Nice brand new towels, and I forget [?] what I didn’t want, but I could have had anything off that pile, he just said ‘take all you want.’ But I couldn’t for the life of me, well there was nothing I wanted really.
AS: Mm.
LL: Everything. But I did grab a couple of towels.
AS: Mhm.
LL: And all the other, the wrong number on it but you could always cross that number off and put your own number next to it, and name, yeah.
AS: What about leaving your crew, what did that feel like?
LL: Well as I said, I didn’t know they’d gone [emphasis].
AS: Oh okay.
LL: No, because I was sent straight to the dumping ground, the office.
AS: Mhm.
LL: When they went, I hadn’t seen then since [coughs] ‘cause they went possibly to another, to get ready to go to another station.
AS: Mm.
LL: Because I think they left, they left Skellingthorpe and they might have gone somewhere onto another squadron [coughs].
AS: Okay, so you didn’t manage to keep in touch?
LL: Oh, the only – oh I did with, oh I make [pause], did I see him? I might have had a letter or a phone call to say that the rear gunner who travelled from Ormskirk in Lancashire [coughs].
AS: Mm.
LL: He was with a fellow officer. I think we were all warrant officers by then. Oh they were at Crewe Station, and he said, he had to answer a call of nature [coughs]. And he was with this other bloke, I think a warrant officer, with his two kitbags [coughs]. When he came out his mate was missing and his kitbag. All his kit was in there. His family didn’t know what he had done during the war. The bloke disappeared, so did his kitbag with all his stuff like that in there.
AS: All his logbook and –
LL: I thought, he was telling me about it [coughs]. And when I was – I had a letter from his son telling me, telling me what happened, I thought ‘well, it’s not fair really.’ He’d got all this – it wasn’t too long back. His family didn’t know anything about his service life, not a thing. So been in contact with him, I thought ‘well, it’s only fair.’ You can change my name to any member of the crew, it’s exactly the same. All the flying you do is as a crew [emphasis], and all, no stranger amongst them. So if I take my name off and put yours instead, nobody could be any wiser because you all fly together as a crew and not as an individual with somebody else. So the recording on there is exactly the same, right the way through.
AS: Mm.
LL: All seven of us got exactly the same written on there.
AS: So you made a copy and gave it to –
LL: Yeah –
AS: The son.
LL: I did, I copied it I think.
AS: Yeah.
LL: You can have that if you want it.
AS: Thank you.
LL: It’s entirely up to you.
AS: Thank you.
LL: I think – oh, when I did the copying for Bill I done an extra one, in case I came across somebody else who wanted one, so I’ve always had – it’s been spare so I’m alright that way [?].
AS: Thank you. That’s been absolutely [emphasis] – we’ve been talking for two hours. Shall we stop now, I think?
LL: What do you want to do now, anything?
AS: I think we’ve pretty well covered most [emphasis] of what I was going to say, maybe we could pause now.
LL: Well what we could do, we could open that door there and when – you can unlock it and have a bit of air come through, it’s getting a bit stale in here, yeah.
AS: That’s what we’ll do. Thank you very much.
LL: Yeah.
AS: Cheers.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Lesley Joseph Loosemoore
Creator
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Adam Sutch
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-16
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALoosemoreLJ151116
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:41:32 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Les Loosemore describes his upbringing and employment history in Swansea before joining the war in 1945. He describes the Blitz in Swansea before training to be a mid upper gunner for 61 Squadron. He describes his rather intensive training, including his time at the Lancaster Finishing School, the crewing up process, the importance of maintaining equipment and the various aircraft he flew, including Ansons, Wellingtons and Lancasters. He articulates the atmosphere onboard an aircraft during an operation, recalling the silence as everyone concentrated on their own duties and the fear he felt on his first few operations. He recalls watching the aircraft next to him dropping a Tallboy (or Grand Slam) bomb, before likening the noise of a operation to that of heavy thunder. He flew operations for three months before the war ended, at which point the mid upper gunners were no longer needed. He retrained as a driver although missed saying goodbye to his crew.
Contributor
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Katie Gilbert
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Wales--Swansea
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-02
1944
1945
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
fear
Grand Slam
ground personnel
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 262
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Winthorpe
sanitation
service vehicle
Stirling
Tallboy
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/606/8875/PMayBJ1601.2.jpg
67eb022aee54727f792c196613e31254
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/606/8875/AMayBJ161123.1.mp3
bca779d86d0b95dbcb09fc34a07901c7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
May, Ben John
B J May
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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May, BJ
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Ben May (1925 -2018, 1894955 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 420 Squadron. Also includes a short memoir and a photograph.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Ben May and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CJ: This is Chris Johnson, and I am interviewing Ben May today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Ben’s home near Canterbury and it is Wednesday the 23rd of November 2016. Thank you very much Ben for agreeing to talk to me today. So, we’ll move onto the first er question Ben if we may. Perhaps you could tell us where and when you were born, please, and what your family background is?
BM: Well, it’s my birthday today, and I’m ninety-one today. So, I was born in 1925 at Birchington in Kent. Now the family lived in East Kent, because my father worked for the local gas company, and er, as I grew up I tended to go that way and my first job was in the forge in the gas works, blowing the bellows, for fifteen bob a week. [laughs] I sort of grew up in the gas works atmosphere and I worked there until I was called up. I was a fitter’s mate there and we did all sorts of things. All sorts of maintenance, on all the equipment in the gas works, which is not terribly interesting but, er, very dusty and dirty. However, I was called up in, er, when was it. [turning over papers] Can you stop for a minute?
CJ: So Ben you were, we got as far as you telling me when it was you were called up. What happened then?
BM: I was a member of the ATC for many years.
CJ: So you were called up when was it?
BM: I was called up in 1944 as a flight engineer under training. I volunteered as a flight engineer and er, the first posting was to Locking, in Cornwall. Sorry Locking in Somerset after ITW in Cornwall. That was very interesting, standing on the cliffs doing signalling [laugh] in the wind. And then my next posting was to St Athan, number 4 School of Technical Training, where I started on the one-year long flight engineer course. Um. At the end of that I passed out on my nineteenth birthday and, er, I can’t read that [?] I’ll do it from, and, er, went down to— I am sorry I got stuck.
CJ: So Ben you were telling me about your training period?
BM: Yes after a couple of years in the ATC in Margate I found myself, I had volunteered for aircrew by then of course. All aircrew were volunteers and, er, I was called up in 1944 and went up to the Recruiting Office in Chatham. [laugh] Where they gave you a cup of tea and a biscuit and said ‘Well done, we’ll call you when we’re ready.’ So they called me up in 1944 and I was sent down to Locking in – down to Cornwall, for initial training, and then onto Locking in Somerset for the first part of the course, and then eventually onto St Athan in South Wales for the 4 Flight Engineer Course, which lasted about a year. There we were taught not only the fundamentals of flying, but also about engines and all the other equipment. You would be amazed the amount of different pieces equipment that are on a bomber. Learned about compressors and filters, and all sorts of bits of gear you wouldn’t even think about. One little joke I play on people. I ask them if they’ve ever heard of changing gear in an aeroplane, and they laugh at you, they say ‘You can’t change gear in an aeroplane.’ But the fact is you can, because there is the two-speed gearbox on the, on the supercharger of the Hercules engine which we flew with, and as you climb the air pressure outside drops away and then you have to change gear on the supercharger. So it always raises a smile when you say you’re changing gear on an aeroplane. Anyway, we learned all about the different systems. Can I stop a minute and start again?
CJ: So Ben you were posted to St Athan for more training. Would you like to tell us what happened from then on?
BJ: That was No. 4 School of Technical Training. It’s a one–year course for flight engineers, and you go through just about every part of the aero – by then you were what they called type cast, type trained. You were selected for one of the four aircraft. There was the Halifax, the Lancaster, the Stirling and the Sunderland which we were being trained for. So you were selected for one of those and in my case it was the Halifax. So, everything on the Halifax was of interest to you and we went on this one–year course, which took just about every part of the Halifax aeroplane and explained it to you. Not only explained it to you, drilled it into you, you had to learn every part of it. What every bit was for and how to maintain them and so on when you were away from base and what to do, you know. There was an awful lot to learn and, er, that took about a whole year to learn that, and, er, and, er, after which I was posted away to a squadron which was Number 420 Squadron which was one of the Royal Canadian Air Force squadrons. It would come over here, they’d brought over a lot of aircrews which were, which were short of a flight engineer, because the Canadians didn’t train any flight engineers, and so as, when the crews came through they selected some of us. They literally dumped us in it, they said, about twelve of us and this bunch of Canadians came along and started crewing up with somebody you know. Very embarrassing that was sitting around waiting for somebody to pick you. But this tall guy came along, asked for me. He’d been reading the notes I think, [laughs] the examination notes and saw something he liked. And so he came and asked for me. I said ‘Well I don’t know any of you, it’s all the same to me so I might as well join your crew.’ And I’m glad I did because they were marvellous, absolutely wonderful guys. And so, we were crewed up and went to further training then. Eh, [pause] I’m sorry I’m getting lost. When we got our crew we embarked on a load of long flights, long training flights. Like a flight from Yorkshire up to Edinburgh and then back down to Cornwall then back home again. So we got some really good experience on long flights, which entail an awful lot of different things to a short flight, where you have to manage the fuel because on the Halifax there were fourteen fuel tanks, and fuel had to be used in a certain order and then some overload tanks pumped from one tank into another and so as to make it go as far as possible. So it was, it was a busy, flight engineer was a busy job, you were always on the go doing something. You had to read all your instruments every twenty minutes, record them or every half an hour. All the oil pressures and the fuel pressures and the cylinder head temperatures and so on, keep a good eye out on your engines. And er, you know, we gelled together as a crew, and we became very good friends. In fact they’ve all been to my house here, all my Canadian friends and I’ve been to all their houses in Canada. So we were really good friends and I suppose that helped us get through the war really. Anyway we were, after a bit more training we were posted to a squadron which was the same as the Canadian squadron, and we went on operations from there. Our first operation was a little town in the Ruhr. We got through that alright and we felt a lot better then, after the first one. But we carried on flying to the end of the war, managed to get – must have been eleven or twelve flights in over Germany, and, er, you know, well we got, looked forward to life out of the flying. I’m sorry I’m not doing very well. [Appears to be a little upset]
CJ: It’s alright.
BM: Life on a squadron is quite different from anything else in the service because there’s a different atmosphere about it. And eh you all know that you’re doing a dangerous job and you might not be here tomorrow was the general feeling, but eh, we settled in quite well, because the Canadians were very hospitable people. They never left me behind when they went out for a drink at night, I was always there with them and they were good mates. We em, [pause] we, we spent a lot of time [pause] talking about, about home. Because home for them was Canada, it was quite different from anything else I’ve seen at that time and er. [pause] And I will tell you something about a typical day on the squadron, eh? Life on the squadron was ruled by daily routine orders and you had to go down to the notice board every day and have a look because woe betide you if you missed something. If ops were on there was an almost palpable atmosphere around the Station because everybody knew that we would be flying that night, so we’d go to the briefing and er, depending whether it was a day or night operation could be late in the day or at mid-day sometimes, and you’d go back to the hut and have a, write your last letters home. [laugh] Write a letter home to your mother always and er, and then you go up to the, to the mess and have a flying breakfast. We were very privileged actually aircrew, whenever we were flying or on an operation we got egg and bacon for breakfast. That was unheard of during the war; we were very, very lucky. [laugh] But er, I suppose we earned it. So you’d go to, you’d go to the mess and have your break, have your flying breakfast, and then you’d go and wait in your huts until we knew what briefing time was and er, then you’d all go into the hut. In the briefing hut there was a very distinct atmosphere about, because the CO would, or the intelligence officer, would pull back the curtains on the target over the, on the stage. There was a pink ribbon stretching from your flight all, following your flight plan it would show you where the target was. And er it was a bit er, you know but you knew it was serious so you got on with it. But we, we flew operationally until just before the end of the war. One particular flight was notable because there was a –, it was a long, long flight to the island of Heligoland which is off the German coast, and, er, [pause] while we were flying over the sea there was a collision between –. Well we don’t know what happened really. Some people say that this particular Halifax pulled the jettison lever, dropped all his bombs together and they – some of them banged together and it went, the bombs went off underneath his aeroplane, but I’m not quite sure that’s true. However the aeroplane blew up in front of us and we flew through the pieces, but we, we only got one crack in the Perspex so it wasn’t too bad. And, er, [pause] Another thing was that we noticed when we were coming back one day early in the morning. We watched a V2 rocket being fired from somewhere in Belgium. So we weren’t the only ones in danger because, that, that rocket landed in England somewhere. Killed a lot of people I imagine. Anyway, the um, the operations were pretty straightforward, because you’d been trained how to use the, all the equipment on the aeroplane. Lots, lots of different systems, lots of things to look at. My job of course was to monitor the fuel system because the Halifax had fourteen fuel tanks, and er some had to be used in a certain order so that they balanced and then the overload tanks had to be pumped into the normal tanks and what with that and doing all the other things. Like the other bits of equipment. Dropping flares and, and all sorts of little jobs that you wouldn’t even think about the flight engineer’s job was quite busy, um, [pause].
CJ: I think you mentioned on the Heligoland raid you saw a Lancaster dropping a Tall Boy bomb?
BM: Oh yeah, yeah I did, yeah, one thing, one notable flight was when we were going in over , over em ‒ . Now let me think where it was. We were going in over one target and there was a Lancaster, a Pathfinder Lancaster, Number 19 Group I imagine. Came, flew alongside us but below us about, about a thousand feet below us. He was carrying one of the first Tall Boy bombs, one of the very big bombs. A twelve thousand pounder I think, wasn’t it? Yeah it was a twelve thousand pounder and we watched, we watched that bomb go, we watched that bomb go down. It was absolutely amazing, it went right smack in between the runway. It was on the –, the raid was on the airfield in Helgoland and the bomb dropped right on the, the er, intersection of the two runways. There wasn’t much runway left when that, after that had gone off. That was quite spectacular. And er, we had to [pause/ a little confused] hold on. So one way and another we, we totalled up a, a total of eleven operations over Germany while the war was still on, because I mean I was only thirteen when the war started so I’m surprised I got into it at all. [laugh] Anyway the war finished and the flying finished and I was made, made redundant and so had to retrain, and, and er, the, the trade, I chose was, was um, [pause] oh God – . I retrained as a, as a fitter marine on the rescue boats. So it was, it was much the same job as the flight engineer’s looking after the fuel and all the equipment but on a rescue boat. So, but we were supposed to be going out to, to join the air sea rescue people but the war finished before we could go out, before we could get there. So, anyway I carried on in the Air Force until I was demobbed in 19 – , when was I demobbed? 1944 was it,
CJ: ‘47 was it, you said?
BM: hang on a mo. [Looking through papers] Yeah I remustered and retrained as fitter marine, with the intention of joining the Air Sea Rescue Services in the Pacific with the expected invasion of Japan, but that didn’t come off, because the atom bomb put an end to that, and so I finished my service in 1947 on marine craft. I, I retrained as a fitter marine and they sent me out to Singapore so I had a year in Singapore which was quite interesting. And er, so I came back home and got my demob suit [laugh] and er, re-joined civilian life. Which wasn’t easy because I hadn’t got a job and er, oh dear – .Anyway [pause], I’d always been interested in photography so, after the war, I got a job with one of those companies on the seafront taking walking pictures and er, I did, I did a year of that. Just kept the, kept the rent coming in and er, found it very interesting actually, especially when you get down on the beach chasing all the girls, you know it’s quite good fun and, anyway I packed that up. I got interested in photography and because the company I worked for said ‘what else can you do?’ So I said I’m, I’m quite handy with a tool kit, so they put me in the workshop repairing cameras of all things. But these cameras weren’t, weren’t like, like your little snapshot cameras. They were great big postcard size, negative reflex cameras, and they were quite complicated and er, the chap in the workshop there was very clever. He got me, got me making spindles on the lathe. I used to make the little roller spindles for him on the lathe and er, that was quite interesting. But then the workshop was next door to the commercial department where they did what we call proper photography. Real commercial photography, not the beach stuff, and I used to go into there and I got interested in that and in the end I decided to take my exams as a, as a, as a photographer. So I genned up and went to night school, went to, and I learned about photography proper, and er, then I joined [little confused] joined a company doing, doing all sorts of commercial photography, and er, managed to get some aerial photography in too, which was quite good. And er, I got really interested in it so in the end I went to night school, took my exams in photography and started my own business. So [pause] I kept, I kept the family, I was married by then and kept the family in groceries. [Slightly confused] I’m sorry I am not very good. Since the war my life has been in photography, professional photography and er, [pause] I, I tried to do as much aviation work as I could, but um, apart from the SR53 which was – I’ll go back ‒ . I went to work for a [pause/looking through papers] I’m sorry.
CJ: You said you were doing some aviation work and you were on this SR53 project, I think, which is a prototype aircraft?
BM: Yeah I went to work for er, I went to work for Saunders Roe, who had, who had launched the SR53 which was a rocket. Which was a, a twin jet with a rocket engine and a jet engine, and I did the air to air pictures of that flying in a Meteor. [laugh] And eh ‒ .
CJ: I think you mentioned some Concorde shots as well?
BM: Yes, I managed; I managed to get some air to air shots of Concorde one day. I dunno how I got that job but I did, I got some nice shots of Concorde in mid-air, and er, sold a nice lot of those. [laugh] But other than that my work’s all been in commercial photography. But of course, any time, any chance we get near an aeroplane. I go to air days, I go to air shows and so on and er, it has all been very interesting.
CJ: You mentioned that you have been over to Canada to see the crew and they have been here. Did you have regular reunions?
BM: Yeah, well my Canadian crew of course all went back home and they were glad to get back to Canada, but it wasn’t long before they invited me over there. And er, so I took a trip over there one day, and er, [pause] [unclear] I went two or three times to Canada. And my, my crew all came here, they all, they all visited me here. And we had some, had some, jolly good booze ups I can tell you, [laugh] as one does. But um, I am still in touch with one of them, all the (others), they have all passed away I am afraid. [pause] I am the last one of the crew left. [laugh] There’s one or two people that I know in Canada, but er.
CJ: And how do you feel about the way Bomber Command was treated after the war?
BM: You ask any one of the thousands of Bomber Command people, they will all tell you the same thing. It was treated rather shoddily. But er, I went up to the, to the big day when the Queen came and um, unveiled the Memorial. I spent a happy day in London doing that – and er, [pause] oh well. It is all part of life isn’t it, these things. [pause]
CJ: So were there any big squadron reunions that you went to or were the reunions just with your crew?
BM: No the only, only RAF reunions I went to were with my crew but, as I say, they have all been here to visit me here, and er – .[pause] As I say, I, I wrote to them for years and years and years but as I say I am the only one left now. Our skipper was in the timber business. He went back to running two big timber camps in Canada, chopping down trees. [laugh] [pause] er, [looking through papers] Yeah, we got through the war. We were quite surprised really, we, we got through without any real damage to the aeroplane. Our rear gunner got a piece of shrapnel in his, in his forearm. That was about the only thing that happened to our aeroplane, we were very lucky and er ‒ . Flying out of a little field in Yorkshire a place called Tholthorpe in North Yorkshire. The local people there were very kind to us. There was always someone to mend your socks for you. You know have a little word when you got a bit upset sometimes, and er, of course the village pub in that village, pub did a roaring trade with the, with the aircrew blokes. But er, I have been back to the airfield since actually, it’s still there, and the runways are still there and the perimeter track’s still there. Somewhat overgrown of course but er. [pause] Funnily enough my hobby by then was flying radio-controlled models, and I, I took one up to the runway and flew it off the runway. [laugh] That is how sentimental I am. [laugh] Yeah.
CJ: I think you mentioned one operation where you got, the aircraft was damaged by ack, em, anti-aircraft fire.
BM: Oh yeah we got some, we got a few holes in the aeroplane yeah. We got – on operations we got quite badly shot up one night with, with anti-aircraft. In fact when we got down there was, there was, seven large holes in the aeroplane. And er, I went, I went down to change, change fuel tanks. At that time when you have been out, and almost back home again, you, you, you use every bit of fuel that’s in the tanks so, I was draining this tank and you, to drain the tank, you, you switch the engine to that tank, and you, you leave it until the little warning light comes on. The little red warning light flickers and then it stays on steadily. You nip up quickly and change, change the tanks over then. But I was waiting for this to happen and er, all of a sudden one of the engines started to splutter a bit, so I changed tanks quickly and went forward to see what was wrong. Only, only found out later that the, the fuel pipes for that tank had been shot away, so I would have waited all night and it wouldn’t have come on again. Anyway, that is the sort of thing that happened, that’s why they put you on there.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for talking to us today Ben, that was really interesting and we’ll end the interview there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ben John May
Creator
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Chris Johnson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-23
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMayBJ161123
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:32:39 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Glamorgan
England--Cornwall (County)
Germany
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Singapore
Temporal Coverage
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1944
Contributor
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Chris Johnson
Terry Holmes
Description
An account of the resource
Ben was born in 1925 in Kent and his first job was in the gas works. A member of the Air Transport Command, he was called up in 1944 and after initial training at RAF Locking he joined No.4 flight engineers course at RAF St Athan for one year. He relates about the number of items of equipment in a bomber that he received training on. He then specialised on the Halifax and was sent to 420 Squadron where he crewed up and flew long flights as part of his training. Ben explains in detail the duties of the flight engineer and how much work it entailed. Posted to RAF Tholthorpe, he relates on life in bomber command on a typical day.
The first of his eleven operations was to the Ruhr valley which was uneventful, unlike the one to Helgoland where the aircraft in front of them exploded and they flew through the debris virtually unscathed. On another op, Ben had a grandstand view of the release of a Tallboy bomb and its devastating effect.
At the end of the war Ben retrained as a marine fitter and spent a year in Singapore before being demobbed. After a year as a photographer, he spent time in the camera workshop repairing commercial cameras and became a qualified photographer. Moving to a commercial photographic firm and then Saunders Roe, he specialised in air to air photography, including the SR53 experimental aircraft and Concorde and still retains his interest by visiting air displays.
Ben has had exchange visits with his Canadian former crew and feels, like most bomber command veterans, that they were treated shabbily.
420 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Locking
RAF St Athan
RAF Tholthorpe
Tallboy
training
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/650/8920/ATrentKL160112.1.mp3
ad84d3cea1d3ea2508452abb41103142
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Trent, Kenneth
K L Trent
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Trent, KL
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Lionel Trent DFC (1922 - 2018, 176283 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a pilot with 576, 625, 617 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
KT: Put your hand up when you –
CB: Yeah.
KT: Are fed up with what I’m saying.
CB: Right.
KT: Or if I’m saying too much of one particular subject. Is it running?
CB: So, my name is Chris Brockbank and we’re in St Helier and we’re just going to talk with Ken Trent about his experiences in the war as a bomber pilot and he did two tours. So if you’d like to start from your earliest recollections please Ken.
KT: Well my first [pause] I started — the first thing I can remember I should say is sitting in the back of a London taxi. I would be how old? Four? Three? Something like that. With my sister and my father. It was in the spring. It was a beautiful day and the pram hood was open on the taxi and we were — it was — but it wasn’t a happy journey. We were going to the [Will Abingdon?] Wing of the Middlesex Hospital to see my mum who was seriously ill. But God looked down on her and she got better and lived another nineteen years which was — but she still died at a very young age of fifty eight. Still, we survived this and then we come to the school. The first school I went to with my sister was St Peter’s, funnily enough. I go to a St Peter’s Church now. And it was across Goodmayes Park. We lived in Becontree and it was across Goodmayes Park and it was a little church school. My mum showed us the way there two or three times and of course in these days you could. Children were quite safe walking around and they used to play in the streets and all this sort of stuff whereas today you know it’s not quite so safe. Well, after we learned the way we used to, we walked to school and we did this for a few days and then we thought it would be a good idea — it was better to play in the park. We had to go cross Goodmayes Park and so we stayed in the park. The biggest problem was to find out the time so that, because we didn’t have clocks but we didn’t want to turn up at home at the wrong time. So as young as we were we weren’t completely stupid. But nevertheless it was only maybe ten or fifteen pupils that went out. Two didn’t turn up. They telephoned and my mum said, ‘Well, they were —’ and of course, so she goes in the park, she finds us and we were in a lot of trouble. She wouldn’t hit us or anything like that but we were in serious trouble. We never did it again. Well we got a little bit older. My mum and dad had a shop in 131 Becontree Avenue and they sold everything and it had a sub post office there. And you know [pause] I’m drying up for the moment.
CB: We can stop for a mo.
KT: Yeah. Just for a second.
[Recording paused]
KT: Ok. I’ve got it. We had a — my dad was a sub post master there. Now, the area was where they had cleared out the slums from East London. And basically I’m an East Londoner and I’m very happy about it. Very proud to be one. And a good Cockney as they say. Anyway, my dad sent me as we grew up and I became old enough he sent me to the local council school and after about a month or a couple of months I came home and the language was not too charming. I don’t think it was swearing but the accent, you know. It was pretty broad. Getting very broad and he didn’t fancy this. So he got me organised in a school in Loughton as a boarder. And the word Loughton School for boys. There weren’t many boarders there. The school would be something like two hundred pupils. There was, there were four boarders and we ate all our meals with the headmaster on the big table and he really eyed over our behaviour and table manners and etcetera etcetera. So at least I learned how to eat in company. Then he had a daughter. Cynthia. I can remember when we were having sausages for breakfast one morning and she said, ‘Daddy do they shoot sausages?’ and you know, it’s kind of funny we thought at the time. Anyway, Cynthia and I were good mates and of course we got caught in the rhododendrons. We thought we weren’t being seen. Finding out the differences between ourselves which I suppose is quite normal of kids at that age. All very innocent. Then following that I mean I was at the school for quite a few years but at one stage and it was at the end when I was ready to go. To to be moved on to another school that I had, we were playing I’m the king of castle, get down you dirty rascal and they pushed me off and I, my feet got caught. I fell down. A kid was running by and he kicked me on the head quite accidentally and so I’m laid out. And it developed into a haemorrhage. An internal haemorrhage in my head. And it showed itself. It was right at the end of term and it showed itself during the holidays. Anyway, they got over all that and or I did but I was in bed for about seven, eight weeks and I wasn’t allowed to get up and I had to keep as still as possible but it all got better. We then, the next thing that happened they entered me into Framlingham College in Suffolk. I think you could call it The Albert Memorial College and it’s in Framlingham and there’s a massive statue of Prince Albert there. But it was normally known as Framlingham College. Well, I went there and I was just on the edge from — I was just a little bit right at the end of junior school so they put me straightaway, this is in the Christmas term and they put me straightaway into the senior school. Now, to be — I completely and utterly wasted my parent’s money. I didn’t work. Apart from maths and arithmetic I, because mainly the headmaster used to take some of the lessons and I got on extremely well with him. Mr Whitworth was his name. And he sailed. And by this time I was very interested in sailing. I’ve been going on about the school but I haven’t talked about the holidays. And I’ll go on with them in a minute. So we go back to holidays. My parents had a little, you would call it a wooden shack on the beach at St Osyth which is known as Toosie St Osyth. There’s a priory there. Well if you go straight down onto the beach onto the, towards the sea, it was on the sea wall. It had about four rooms. It was a wooden shack and it was kind of built on stilts because the front of it was on the ground and the back of it was on stilts because the sea wall was underneath. It was wonderful for us children and there was my sister who was a couple of years older than me, myself and my cousin, Jean. And we, in Easter and summer we were there [noise on microphone] Ok? Yeah. We were there more or less all the time. And our parents would come down and to see us. Now, you imagine three kids and we were all very responsible as it turned out but you wouldn’t think we would be. But we had a ball. We learned how to be self sufficient. We did our own cooking at this very young age. We had a few shillings. We could go. I mean a few pounds I expect but I can’t remember, but there was a fish and chips, or a chippie as they say today, in a hut as you, as you drive over into the area. As you arrive. And we’d go there for fish and chips sometimes. But we, and my parents would come down. Only one of them because the other one would have to be in the shop. Fine. Now, we’ll go back to school. The school, when you get to Framlingham the majority of the pupils came from very wealthy families and some of them [pause] Barry Grant was a pal. He turned out to be a pal of mine. And right at the start he was a wonderful, wonderful musician who had, until he’d got to Framlingham had never had a lesson. But he was in demand. They lived in the Leigh area. You know in Southend and Leigh on the east coast. And he was in the area. He was in. He was required by the cinemas to play the organ in between the films. I think they were Compton organs that used to rise up out of the ground. So when I say he was a wonderful musician this was untrained natural ability. Of course he had his lessons also. You know, music lessons at Fram. So, you would, to give an example you would have a boy, a senior boy who’s got his driving licence or maybe with an L plate would drive to school at the beginning of term in a posh car. Little car. And then they’d take the trunk off the back, in. And the chauffeur would drive it back home. Well, I mean, you know I come out from the East End. My dad’s running an East End little shop and this was another world. Something I’d never ever come across and couldn’t believe but I wanted it. But I still didn’t work at school. I was in all sorts of trouble. Now, the boys. The majority of them, the parents, they were able to ring up the local town Framlingham, the grocer’s shop and get whatever they wanted delivered and they could put it in their tuck box. But we couldn’t do anything like this. We got a shilling a week. And you know their tuck boxes were full. Ours were empty after about a week. Anyway, I had to do something about this and I discussed it with Barry. And we decided that we would go in to the booze and fags business. And we [pause] first of all you’ve got to get out of the school. Well now the school locks up and when its locked they have to have provision for fire. And so by all exit doors there was a little box with a glass front and a key hanging in it and you smashed the glass front and opened the door. So I pinched the key before the end of term. I unscrewed the front of the box. Didn’t break the glass. Put any old key in there. Pinched their key. We put it all back as it was. And then when I’m home our next door, the shop next door was, I used to call him Uncle Dick. Dick Linnington. And Dick was, had been shipwright. Had been a sailor. Had been at sea all his life and I suppose he packed up around about fifty. And he’d started this shop. And amongst other things he cut keys. And it was all done with files. No machines. So he cut me a key. And when I got back I put the proper key back and my key fitted alright. And then we had a large bag that we could cart between us and so off we went to Framlingham Castle. And you’d walk around the back of the school. We came out at the back, go between the tuck shop and the chapel and then you went over a stile into a field and you could walk straight across a couple of fields and you were near Framlingham Castle. And right tucked under, just by the castle was a boozer. A pub. And we went in there and we bought as much as we could afford because I didn’t have much money. As much beer as we could, in bottles. It was just draught beer. The cheapest. In any, in any bottles that they had and they had screw tops so, you know, you could reuse them. And it might have stout. It might have light ale. Brown ale. Bitter. Or whatever. But it was all the same beer regardless. And we had a few packets of fags and we took them back and we found, gradually, carefully found a few customers. And they had to be warned to be very very careful of the cigarette butts. But the bottles — we wanted them back. Well, we actually, we were doing very well with this. We were getting something like between four and five shillings a week each. And in those days I mean our shilling a week, no we would get something like about five shillings a week between us. About two and six. Half a crown each. Which, when you consider that our weekly money, you know, pocket money was a shilling. We multiplied it. Anyway, we were doing alright. Well when we dragged this lot back and go down the corridor into the chapel and Barry of course. I was in the choir and when I was sitting in the choir I could see him pumping the organ and I had seen him take a sip out of the communion wine before now. Anyway, we stored the stuff in the organ and I mean at times Barry played the organ and then I was pumping it. We had quite a nice little business but nobody ever found out and we escaped. Now, I expect you know I’m writing a book and I wonder, I just wonder what they’re going to think when they, when they read this. Anyway, apart from that I was lazy. I was quite good at tennis, table tennis and squash. I mean there were everything was available there. From swimming, you know. There was rugby in the winter. In the Christmas term. Hockey. And cricket of course in the next two terms. And then there was riding. Tennis. All sorts of stuff on the side. Ok. Well we get to the end. The day before I left school I got the stick from prefects for smoking. I mean me. Getting caught smoking and I’d been so careful. Nobody had been rumbled with cigarettes. Well they may have been rumbled but they never — they didn’t leave butts around. We’d got them all, the smokers, pretty well trained who were our customers. But then I got caught. Stick off prefects is not a very pleasant thing. You, it’s at 9.30. After prayers. And you were in your pyjamas and you go down to the set room and it was four strokes. I think it says six in the book but that’s a bit of an exaggeration. It was four strokes and they, the prefects, there were two of them. One of them who I can remember distinctly. His name was Bellamy and he was in the first eleven as a fast bowler. Well, they would have a run up of about seven or eight, ten paces and run in and lay it on as hard as ever they could. And by the time you’d got four strokes — the biggest thing you mustn’t make a noise. I mean you’ve got to show, ‘Sod them. They’re not going to get me.’ And you’ve got to shut your mouth and keep it shut and just let them do it. As the thing that you just let them do it. Let’s do it. Just get there and just accept it. And of course when you’ve finished if you’re lucky you’ve just got massive bruising with welts on your bum. And if you’re unlucky you might have a little drop of blood. But you know I know this sounds in this day and age absolutely terrible but it did me no harm at all. And I realised that you know the rules. You break the rules you go for what you’ve got to get. But the people it may have damaged are the people that were dishing it out because they looked after their canes and they got anti-shock absorbers and stuff you know which I don’t think was very good training but nevertheless it happened. And that was the system as it was ninety, eighty years ago. Right. I left. And I left [pause] and for the winter term 1939 war was declared. I got myself a job. No. That’s really not true. I was lucky enough to get a job because my dad knew the chairman of John Knights. The soap company. And the job was really — I was obviously going in the services so it was a kind of semi, it was, it was a fill in and I must have been there for quite some time but all of a sudden all the men disappeared and the ladies, girls and ladies and women were taking over the running. It was a fantastic effort that they put in and they made a wonderful job. It wasn’t long before — and the other thing the company moved from Silvertown to Loughton. Strangely enough Loughton where I’d been at school. In a very large house with a lot of outbuildings and the office was all run from there and they’d fixed it all up. And I worked very very hard. I would stay the night in the big building all night. I camped in the big building and I had to keep — you know, things were different. There was a war on and everybody had to try and do their bit and I suddenly found although I didn’t do any work at school at all. Terribly lazy. I suddenly found there was an object in this and I could work until the job was done. And I did. And I worked. I worked all the hours and sometimes up to 10 o’clock at night and then I would camp down in this big house and there were — I mean I wasn’t the only one. There would be one or two others camping there as well. This was the spirit of England at that time. Anyway, it wasn’t very long before I found myself running the London forward section. The forward meaning arranging the invoicing and statements. No. I don’t think statements. Invoicing and organising deliveries to people in the London, to shops in the London area. Well at the time I was still there when the Channel Islands were taken over and although it didn’t affect me there was a big panic going on because of the money that was owing and orders to the various places. Nevertheless, I was also a member of the — what did they call it? Cadets. RAF cadets. Locally in Ilford. And we used to go there and you know I would be about eighteen and I thought I ought to join up and I would have only just been eighteen because it was December. And my eighteenth birthday would be in November. And so I applied to join the RAF. What as? I said pilot. And I really regretted not working at home, you know. At school I should say. I really regretted that because if I had I would have had no problems and I was thinking I’d never pass any of the exams. I’ll never pass the exams. Nevertheless, in just a few weeks I’m called to Uxbridge and I go down there and the exams were not that hard. And I did the exams. That was fine. Then we had to have an interview and I thought — well if they see my school record what chance have I got? It’s going to be absolutely dreadful. And you know this is something. Anyway, I’m worried. I wanted to be a pilot so much. I, eventually there was about seven or eight of us outside a room and you know, somebody had gone in and then he had come out and he said, ‘Trent. You’re next.’ So, I went in. Stood to attention and there was a bloke. Immaculately dressed. About ten years older than me. A bit older than me and he started off, ‘Where did you go to school?’ I said ‘Loughton School for Boys.’ And then I moved on as I got older. Oh I called it a prep school. It wasn’t a prep school but it sounded better, Loughton School, Prep School for Boys. Anyway, then — and the the next school? I said, ‘Framlingham College.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Which house?’ I said Garrett. ‘Oh’, he said, ‘I was in Garrett House as well.’ I got no problem. I’m in. and he said, you know, and all we talked about was school and Rupe and Pop and Colonel and all the other masters and stuff and those were their nicknames. Anyway, so I’m in. I go home and just a short time after that — maybe a month six weeks, I get a [pause] I, yes I think I went, no — I went to Uxbridge. And then from Uxbridge, there was a bunch of us, we were given railway warrants to Torquay. Number 9 RW. Receiving Wing. And we arrived down there and they kitted us out with all the stuff and were starting to march us up and down. Showing us how to make your bed for the daytime so that all the sheets are folded in a certain way and the blankets and all the, well for want of a better word the bull shit that they have in the services. And there they also I mean they started the marching and this, that and the other and also polishing your bloody boots. All the equipment that was issued including a thing called a hussif and the hussif was your needle and stuff like this for repairing your clothes and the word derives from housewife. Anyway, we also had loads of injections which made us feel a bit rough. But after, it was only about a week, seven or eight days we were posted to [pause] I can’t remember the number and I’ve got it in the book but it was an IT, Initial Training Wing at Stratford On Avon which is a beautiful lovely town. And we were in the Shakespeare Hotel right on the top of, you know, the top hotel in there. The only trouble is they’d taken out all the goodies but it was still a lovely place to be. We started the lectures. You know, there’s maths and navigation, theory of flight, instruments, map reading. You know, general things you would think you would need. And I worked hard. And, you know, just as an aside we used to church parade on a Sunday and I’m not sure if we got — I think we got a half a crown a day. That’s the seventeen and six a week and because I wanted to survive the war I thought it might be a good idea to give God a good donation every Sunday. So he got five bob of my seventeen and six every week. And I don’t know. Silly. But I did it, you know. That’s how you feel, and I’ve always attended church when possible and still do. Anyway, so, mind you with the behaviour things you wonder [laughs] you know. But there’s got to be some bad Christians as well as good ones. Anyway, so I went on from there. We had the exam. And all of sudden there was a massive panic. And before you could say, ‘Pack your bags. Pack your bags.’ Go to West Kirby. Or is it East Kirby? It’s by Liverpool. And we are — West Kirby isn’t it? Yes. And we are put aboard the Leopoldville which was a dirty old Polish tramp steamer. And we’re off. We’re off. We don’t know where we’re going. The boat’s going. But we wind up in Iceland. Now, on the way there was one big room with camps [pause] with what do you call them?
CB: Hammocks. Hammocks.
KT: Hammocks. That’s right. I couldn’t get the word. With hammocks. And underneath there were tables and underneath there’s the deck or the floor. And there were — guys were spread in the hammocks, on the tables, under the tables on the floor. And do you know I think being a bit on the selfish side I found a little corner for myself in a corridor and I slept. It was only a few days. Three, four or five days. And I slept — and in the corridor. Well one morning the old, you know, weather had gone a bit sour. The sea was getting up and the old tub was rolling all over the place and in the morning when I went into the big room there was about, I don’t know how much, a foot of water, a couple of feet of water and as the boat was rolling it was sloshing from one side to the other. Because they hadn’t secured the portholes properly and so every now and again until they got them secured they had like full steam hose. You know. And of course there was now a big dry out required and one thing or another. But I was happy in my little corner and I was very lucky. I must tell you the toilets. They were so absolutely abysmal. It was a plank. A big plank with several holes cut in it and it was on the port quarter. Secured. With hand holds. That’s where you performed in front of each other. But it was quite efficient because they just used to hose the deck off and it all used to go over the side so that, because the boat didn’t have sufficient toilet arrangements for the people, the number aboard. Anyway, we got to Iceland. We get unloaded and we go inland to a place called Helgafell. We were, we were sleeping in half built Nissen huts. We’d all got camp beds. Not camp beds. What do you call them? Sleeping bags and all this stuff and our kit bags and this and we slept in these Nissen huts. You know, one end, the end we were in, one end was open but there was lots of us and we were all started on the floor. And then when you woke up in the morning you weren’t cold and you’d all squash together in one big lump of human flesh and everybody was warm and it was ok. It wasn’t as bad as it sounds. We ate there. Well one of the things in Iceland they’ve got hot springs and of course we’d got to have a go at that. It mean it was not warm and it wasn’t the middle of winter. It would be spring. It would be but it was a bit of snow around but not — it wasn’t too bad. So we were in there. All of us. Oh about twenty. Twenty, thirty of us. All out of our hut swimming. Hot. Beautiful. Smashing. And then all of a sudden a whole load of young girls turned up and they all get in. They’re all swimming. And they’re in the nude as well. So we couldn’t get out of the water and it was tricky. Anyway, we get back into town and we are put aboard a large liner and I don’t know the name of it. It was not the QE, the Queen Elizabeth. We went to Halifax. We’re stuck on a train for five days going to Swift Current which was where our EFTS — Elementary Flying Training. The journey was long. The trains are enormous. They are over a mile long. The whole lot makes England’s train system look as if its Hornby. Anyway, when we got to Winnipeg [pause] no. It was Trenton. I beg your pardon. It definitely wasn’t Winnipeg. It was Trenton. They had laid on, the powers that be had laid on a dance and they’d got a load of local girls with finger, finger stuff to eat and this, that and the other. And it was all very kind and lovely but then the Canadians are lovely because basically my family are all Canadian bar my sister and myself. So, then we eventually get to Swift Current and then we start with the lessons and then you know, you work hard and the actual work, the whole thing was easy. We had an interesting character on our course called Jimmy Edwards who I expect most of you have heard of and know. He did, at the beginning of the lectures before the lecturer had turned up he would stand in the front with his cane and doing exactly the same thing as he did after the war on television and in the theatre for millions of pounds. Anyway, that was Jimmy. The interesting bit is the first time you fly. And you go around. I can’t remember the name of my instructor. He was not liked. The other two pupils. There were three. He had three pupils. The other two asked to be exchanged, to change. To change. I really got on with him. He was, for me, just the right guy and he takes you around. There’s a Pitot head and you check your Pitot tube. You have to make sure the Pito tube doesn’t have a sock over it to look after it. And you check the ailerons, rudder, elevators and general look around and you look in the cockpit. This is the first time I’d ever seen. You know, you can imagine the excitement. Got the flying gear on. All the business. And you look and he was explaining the bits and pieces. And needle, ball and air speed is the basic thing for a Tiger. Anyway, we get in and he takes the thing off. And he instructed me to hold the stick with — between my fingers and not with a grip. And I suppose this is in case you freeze on it. Anyway, at take off and he showed me how to fly straight and level. You know, you’ve got to get the needle and the ball and you’ve got to maintain the same airspeed. And you know, it was not difficult and it wasn’t very long. Maybe ten minutes, quarter of an hour before I got the hang of just flying straight and level. I hadn’t done any turns or anything like that. And he said, ‘Now ease the stick forward. Ease the stick forward. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.’ And he said, ‘Now you’re doing about a hundred and twenty. Now ease it back. Back. Back. Come on. Back. Back.’ Bingo. We did a loop. And I did it. So the first time I ever got in an aeroplane I did a loop. And that to me is something. Anyway, then he shows you how to, you know rate one turns and turning. To give you the whole description would take a long time. So we go on, come in and land and he shows me how to land and you know he does this three or four times and then he lets me have a go with the, with the stick and he’s kind of guiding me. But anyway, this is kind of normal. The way we trained. And this went on for a while. Over a few days, maybe a couple of weeks and I can’t remember the hours. I’ve got them written down. I can’t remember, I think they were just short of four hours. Three forty, three fifty hours I had done at the time and I’d just done a landing and I’d taxied to turn into wind again to take off and in my book I said, “God got out.” And he said, you know, he just got out. ‘See what you can do.’ And I took off. No problem. And I’m in the air going up and I’m screaming at the top of my voice, ‘Mummy, if you could see me now.’ And I came around and did the thing. Came in and did, as far as I remember a pretty good landing. I don’t know. Anyway, I got it on the ground so it must have been good. But I couldn’t leave it. I opened the taps again and did another circuit. And i thought, ‘God, I’m going to be in trouble for that.’ I came in and landed and I would have loved to have done another one but I turned and taxied up to him thinking I’m going to be in trouble. And he was so pleased. But I got on with him all the time. They moved from Swift Current. They moved the whole — oh I must tell you. While I was there we bought a car. Four of us. Two dollars fifty each. It was a Model T Ford. It was another thing to start a Model T Ford in cold. Thirty below, forty below because this is by the — now we’ve gone through the summer. We’re in the winter. Zero. I’ve got to tell you quickly. You jack up the back wheel. Of course there’s no water. That’s all out. You stick the handle in the front. You don’t switch on because there’s a magneto and you just wind the handle and it’ll start. I wonder if I’ve got this right. I think it is. Anyway, it starts and you leave it warming for a while. Now you want some hot water. Some hot water with you. And after you’ve got it running and it has warmed up a bit you stop it, pour the water in, restart and it should start no problem. No. Sorry. You don’t stop it. You just pour the water in the radiator but if it stops you’ve got to get the water out of the radiator straightaway because it’ll be frozen in no time. Anyway, and the tap will work because the tap will be hot. Anyway, as soon as you’ve got that and you get it running for a while then you have to stop it and put the fan belt on because the fan belt drives the water pump. But before you do that you’ve got to pour water on the water pump to thaw it out. And then you put the fan belt on. Start it. And now you want somebody to push you off the jack. And then you’re away. It’s quite a car to drive actually because the handbrake is part of the gearing mechanism. So if you’ve got the hand break is on now you take it half way off and you’ve got a pedal that you press and when you push that the car goes forward. And then you put the handbrake off and then take your foot off the pedal, off the pedal and you are in top gear. So if you are on the ground and — if you’re stationery I should say and you start it and then you take the handbrake all the way off it promptly stalls because you’re putting it in top gear. Anyway, there we are. That’s enough of that one. We moved to Innisfail. The whole outfit. And we weren’t allowed to drive the car. It was about four hundred miles. We flew the aircraft and we got two ground crew and we got them permission and they drove it the four hundred miles and they had a wonderful holiday apparently because by — anyway then we flew and there was, it was very easy. You know, it’s easy flying in Canada because everything is marked in squares and all the roads go north or south. North south or east west. And you can’t go wrong. All you’ve got to know is the latitude and it is so easy. Anyway, we get there and we had a Chinook wind. Now a Chinook — it’s a very hot. It’s very hot and it was over night and the whole place is white and covered in snow and the snow would have been on the ground unless there had been a previous Chinook wind. It would have been on the ground since about September-time as it fell and it would stay there if there was no Chinook wind right the way through until the spring. But we had, they do get, in Alberta they do get a few Chinook winds and the — when you wake up in the morning most of the snow has gone. All the snow on the ground but the stuff in the hilly or where there were big drifts, yes there would be snow there but basically it had gone. But the thing it did it thawed out the top of the lakes and so all of a sudden you’ve got water on top of lakes and then a couple of nights later it’s all frozen again and you’ve got ideal skating conditions. Anyway, we met a couple of, they were, you know the Canadians were very good and very nice to us and in the [pause] they were asking us to their homes for a meal and stuff and my pal Bob Sergeant and I got invited to a Mrs McGee for a meal. And when we got there she was, she was a widow. Her husband had died and she had two beautiful daughters. Just right. And they were around about, you know, our age or maybe just a little bit less but more or less our age. And of course it wasn’t very long before the rest of our stay in Innisfail. This is, I don’t know if I told you we went from Innisfail from Saskatoon er Swift Current. To Alberta. To Innisfail which is not far from Calgary. Anyway, so we had a great time with the girls and finishing the course, took the exams and then I was posted, along with the rest of the course to North Battleford in Saskatchewan. And then big disappointment — onto Airspeed Oxfords. So that meant I wasn’t going to be one of these lovely boys with the Battle of Britain guys who used to be at High Beach with all the best birds and a little car and stuff like this with their wings. And these were the Battle of Britain guys. And this was the thing that, I used to go to High Beach with my bicycle and this was really part of the reasons why I joined the air force. To see them. Well, so I’m going to be a bomber pilot. And we did the course. There was no problem with the course. One of the strange things, well, one of the things that happened — we were on a — of course there was a big thing about navigation and etcetera. So, navigation. I was up as the navigator and there was another pupil as a pilot and we had a route to take and I got utterly and completely lost. But there’s a bonus also in Canada because they have grain elevators and I came, we came down or he came down and we read the name of the grain elevator and it was Humboldt in Saskatchewan. I had an auntie who lives in Humboldt and actually she’s been to Jersey where I live now. This was years ago. Forty odd ago. And she’s been here with us when our children were very small. And she lived to a hundred and ten. And she died when she was a hundred and ten. Auntie Dorothy. Well, it was, it was her home town but having found that out and I found my way back to where we should have been but I made a complete imagination of the course I should have done. Filled in wind drifts and everything else and it was just a load of [pause] it wasn’t rubbish because it was as my guess for what would have, you know what it would have been like if we’d done the right thing and I put it in and with my fingers crossed it was going to be all right. And I got a passed. I can’t believe it but I did. Anyway, we eventually, we get to the wings exam and there were a hundred and forty of us. A hundred and forty passed it. I don’t know how many, how many failed. But Jimmy Edwards was twenty second and I was fifteenth. So I had worked hard. The first forty got commissions. But I, don’t forget I was out of the east end of London really and I was not considered to be officer material. Well I think really they’re right. Anyway, I didn’t, I didn’t get a commission. I was made a sergeant pilot and then the worst deal of all of course I’d sewn my wings on. That was about two minutes after. As soon as I got in. The first thing. We were all doing it. Anyway, I was posted to [pause] I can’t remember the number. It was a bombing and gunnery school at Mont-Joli on the banks of the St Lawrence in province Quebec. It was on the south bank facing north and it was literally just a few hundred yards away from the airfield. And we were flying Fairey Battles. And some of them had a gun at the back and they had UT pilots. Not pilots. Gunners under training. And then there would be two or three others that used to tow drogues. And the guys used to fire into the drogues. And so we were doing fifteen, twenty minute flights up and down up and down with different gunners all the time. I mean it might have been twenty five minutes — the flights. I can’t remember. But then you’ve got to taxi in, turn around, taxi out and take off and do another lot. And it was horrible. I [pause] I wanted, I joined the air force to get in the war and this wasn’t the war. And I just, I got back in to my very rebellious ways again and didn’t do everything right by a long way and of course the flying. It was so boring. I was really sticking my neck out. The first — what the hell was the first thing. There were three major things. One of them. Oh I know. The first one I was, I mean this was not like the western Canada. This is all hills and its beautiful beautiful countryside with hills, valleys and vales and its picturesque and a beautiful area. And absolutely great for fun with an aeroplane because the first thing that I did and never got known — it never became known but it nearly killed me. I’m flying up a valley as low as I can go and all of a sudden I’ve got a complete wall in front of me. The valleys ended and I don’t know what you call it. There would be a name for it. And I haven’t got enough room to turn around. And as soon as I saw it I got as much, I got a bit more height. As much as I could. I went as close to the port side as I possibly could. Stood the thing right on side and yanked the, you know got the stick right back and the bank at the end — must have missed that by about maybe a hundred feet. Maybe twenty. I don’t know but it was close. And then the bank the other side. But you live and I learn. But that’s if you live. And I learned. And the next thing I’m flying over — this is a period of quite a few months, I’m flying over a lake, and I’m going. Its ice and its winter and it’s and all of a sudden boom boom boom boom boom and it’s not much faster than that. I thought a propeller touching the ice would be brrrrrr but it’s not. It’s bang bang bang bang bang. Anyway, I eased the stick back and she came off. Now if you pull the stick back you hit your tail wheel on the ice and that would be curtains. So I was lucky. I didn’t really know but I eased the stick back, came off and the whole lot is like a big shaking machine because the propeller’s all out of balance and it was absolutely dreadful. So I went up to three thousand. I got up to something like three thousand feet and flew back to base and I thought well now the engine can’t stand this for long. It’s going to pack up and I’ll stick it on the ground on it’s, without the wheels and they won’t see anything about the propeller. And I flew. But you know the Merlin engine is a bit better than that. And I wound around in the end and I’ve got no fuel left. Well I had fuel but it was just a little fuel. I was running out of fuel so I came in and landed and I landed with the brakes on or I put them on straight away with the stick as far forward as I could get it thinking she’d stand up on her nose. But it didn’t happen. Went down and then the tail flopped down. Of course I hadn’t got any brakes. I’d burned them out. Well I taxied in and on Mont-Joli there was a big ditch both sides of the taxi strip. And so you’ve got to go faster and faster and faster to maintain your direction because [pause] and in the end I just cut the engines and she went on and she did a big circle to the left and she came up. I’ve got — she came up right outside the CFI’s, Chief Flying instructor’s office. Right bang outside with a bent prop. And he was out of that office before you could say knife. And he swallowed the story. I said I’d run into a snowdrift and that was right. But the station commander was a different cup of tea. He was older. He had grown up children and he said, ‘Come on. I’ll take you. Show me the marks on the runway,’ and there weren’t any marks of course. So, he said, ‘Now I know what you were doing. Now, tell me. I’m not going to do anything about it.’ And he wanted me to admit that I’d lied and I wouldn’t. So I carried the lie on. Rightly or wrongly I did. I said. I didn’t tell him. I stuck to my story. Well I know it was a big mistake because it had repercussions later. Oh months. A couple of months. Later on there was. Anyway, I was up but for the first time ever I was pulling a drogue. Now, I’d never, I was, you know I’d always had the fighter guys. You know the gunner guys. Anyway, so we’d done the exercising and one thing and another. And then you come over the dropping area. You drop the zone and then the drogue and then you circle around, land. And that’s that. Well, I thought before I do that I’ll do a few steep turns and watch the drogue go past me in the opposite direction. I thought well that would be a bit different. And I did that. Now, when you come out of a steep turn you take, a steep turn is you’ve got the kite almost on its side. Not quite. With the stick well back and the stick which is the elevators — those are the things that are doing the turn. And you do the turn. You do the hundred the hundred eighty degree turn. When you come out you take the bank off and you ease the stick forward a fraction. Obviously because you’ve had it back take the bank off ease the stick forward and I went to pull it back and it didn’t come back. So I pushed it forward and pulled it back and it went forward and never came back. And I couldn’t get it back. I pulled it. Did everything and told the crew to get out. I unhitched myself, opened the top and I’m standing in the cockpit looking back and the bloke hasn’t moved. So I got back in the cockpit and I wound the elevator trim fully tail heavy and I was put under open arrest for this lot and they had an enquiry. And the enquiry said that we didn’t come out of it until we were four hundred feet. Now, that is very very low when you’re coming straight down. Anyway, as I wound the elevator full tail heavy and then all of a sudden the stick came back all the way and I then grabbed the elevator controls. A little crank handle on the left side. On your left side. And I started winding it forward as fast as I could and the next thing I knew I passed out of course in the, with the G and we were two thousand feet going up but if I hadn’t taken the bank, wound the elevator trim forward the kite would have gone straight over in to a loop and straight in the ground. Anyway, we got away with it. Came in and landed and the guy in the back although he dropped, they went and dropped the drogue of course. He dropped the drogue but he crashed his head when the kite pulled out and he got a big bruise but and he went sick. But he was alright. He just, he’d just got a big bruise on his head. He hadn’t broken his head. You know. Cracked his skull or anything like that. Fortunately. The next day I did the test flight. They looked and they couldn’t find anything wrong. So [pause] and they put me under open arrest and this would have been because of the previous time that they were taking a strong view. And I hated where I was. I wanted to be in England. I wanted to get onto operations so, and it didn’t look as if I’d got any chance of this happening. So I cleared off and went skiing. And I left actually, with a chap called Doug Wiltshire, I don’t know whether he’s still alive. I’ve lost contact. But he was my Bridge partner and I knew him very well. Well, I left the, I’d arranged with Doug certain times when I could ring him so that I could find out the news. Find out. And the first day I’m away and I’m ringing up. No. No problem. So, the next day I ring up he says, ‘You’d better come back home. They’ve been up.’ The aircraft I was in was the lead of two more. So, there was three of them formation flying. They were up on formation flying exercise and they did a steep turn and exactly the same thing happened. And the bloke in the, who was leading the formation went straight in the ground head first and killed him. Well when I got back I’d broken the — I mean I was under open arrest and it wasn’t just absent without leave it was a much more serious crime but they, they ignored it and they just had me up for being AWOL for two days. And I know that because I’ve got my records and it’s in there. And they gave me a reprimand. But they posted me. It’s quite normal I think when you’ve got in this particular case it was very difficult for the station commander because they hadn’t listened to me and so therefore it had cost two lives. And they don’t know how I’m going to react. What I’m going to do. And I mean I could have, I knew the guy that killed himself. I can’t remember his name. He was a New Zealander and his birthday was the 18th of November. The day before mine. Mine’s the 19th of November. And that’s — but I knew him very well and I could just as well I mean I wouldn’t have done it but they thought I could have, I may have written to his parents and told his parents. So they posted me straight away back to England. Eureka. I’m on the way to get into the, what I joined up for. I crossed the Atlantic on the Queen Elizabeth. No. Not the QE. The Queen Elizabeth 1. I think she finished her days in Hong Kong burning out. She caught fire and burned to pieces. Anyway, before I boarded the boat I bought three Crown and Anchor boards. And it was another, you know, another thing about me or character. There was some money around and I needed some of it and I was, I was more or less broke. I bought the three Crown and Anchor boards for ten dollars to start playing with which is not enough. So I got a board and I start a little game. You know, with a nice cockney accent which I can, which I had and still have basically and I did this – a little friendly game, you know , sort of business. The Americans, there must have been, there were thousands of them. I don’t know. One, two, three. I don’t know how many the boat would hold. There were not many English but there were loads and loads of Americans and they’d never seen Crown and Anchor. And it was a gambling game. They’d got to have a go at this. Well, I built the most important thing with it is that you’ve got to keep all the squares equally. With equal amounts of money on. If you get one with a great pile of money and it comes up and it comes up and it can come out two or three times I would have been broke. So, you, just a little friendly game you know. Oh no. Just. And so — but the money accumulates and it wasn’t very long before I got fifty, sixty dollars. And then of course the limit went up and up and up and then I got another board game. Another bloke — I said, ‘Do you want to earn a bit of money?’ you know. ‘Yeah.’ ‘I’ve got a board. You can set it up.’ And eventually I had the three boards going. I don’t know what happened on the crossing over on the Atlantic. I have no idea. All I did know was I wearing myself out walking around the ship picking up money. And when I got off the ship, I mean the guys that were running the things would have had as much or maybe more, I don’t know, than me but I got off the ship with just over three thousand pounds. Well now three thousand pounds in those days you could have bought a street of houses. But you know we were now in the throes of getting onto operations so the most important thing was to enjoy it. And I did but it took a little while. About a year or something but it was — but I did everything. Anyway, so we get back. We went to West Kirkby and from there I went to Shawbury and actually Prince Harry did some of his training or he was certainly stationed there for a while. I read it in the paper. I didn’t even know Shawbury was still going. And it, again it was Oxfords. And so you get back, you get in the Oxford and off you go up in the air and have a look around. Not a bit like Canada. Canada, in its way had its own kind of grandeur but it didn’t have — I mean, alright, the eastern area yes was very beautiful but when you’re flying over England it was beautiful but there wasn’t a straight road to be seen. I mean, Canada you could, it was so easy, but here you had to be a bit more, you know, it was different careful. And the same applied to the trains. They were just like little Hornby things. Anyway, everything was fine. They went up for a night flight and just familiarisation. I think it was the first time I’d been up and it was just to familiarise yourself with the local area and I flew down to the Wrekin and, you know, I had a look around. And, you know, there was no light. The whole place is, you know, blackout. Anyway, then I flew back and I ran into cloud and there was not supposed to be any cloud. It was supposed to be a clear night. And anyway, so I came down and I kept down to about I don’t know seven or eight hundred feet and I couldn’t see the ground so I went back to the Wrekin and the Wrekin hadn’t been shrouded in cloud. It was clear. And I did a very careful course and with the wind as far as I knew laid off and of course you, you have, you were given the wind speed and direction before you take off so you’ve got an idea of the wind. I laid a course on a timed run to get back to base. I ran it out and there’s nothing. So I came down again to about eight hundred feet and nothing. So I called up and there were thousands of people, hundreds. I don’t know. But the radio was jammed with people in the same situation. So I called up on [pause] I’ve forgotten it — six hundred, eight, anyway it’s the emergency frequency. I do know it but it’s slipped out of my mind.
CB: 121.5.
KT: Sorry?
CB: 121.5.
KT: No. No. It was different. Yeah. Anyway, I called up on the radio frequency on, you know, the emergency frequency. And they came back immediately, ‘Stand by,’ and I started, I flew squares. I can’t remember how many minutes. There might have been three minutes each leg and it seemed like a half an hour but I expect it was five minutes. Ten minutes at the most. And they came back and I asked for QDM to Shawbury and the QDM was 272. So I knew that I was east of the Welsh hills for sure. So I got on to 272 and I put full flap on. Tightened up the strap and dropped the speed down to just above stalling and I can’t remember what it would be. It might have been sixty. Sixty five. Something. But as slow as you could but I haven’t flown an Oxford for such a long I’m not sure. I think the stalling speed was about sixty five miles an hour and with full flap on you would get away with it at sixty. Anyway, so if you did hit anything there was a chance that you might be alright. And coming down like this and down and down and down and down and all of a sudden I see a light on the ground so I immediately put a bit more throttle on and go down towards the, then I see another one and I’m in a funnel. And a funnel is a lighted path before you get to an aerodrome and it leads you on to a runway. So, immediately I’d opened up, got the taps on so there’s no chance of stalling. I’ve got full flap on anyway. I drop the wheels and start coming in and there’s another bloody kite and he’s about — very close on the starboard side. But that’s no problem but you know he just appeared out of the fog and he flashed the same letter as me which was W. And you know didn’t ‘cause you know you were supposed to flash and get the green light that we weren’t messing about or anything like that. I wasn’t messing about or anything like that. So I flew alongside him and I came in and landed. The hut at the end of the runway fired off red flares to stop us landing because there were two kites coming in to land together. But of course I didn’t take any notice of that. Don’t forget by this time I’d got about fifteen hundred hours in and I’d been in the bombing gunnery school. That’s because I was first out. First up in the morning last, last off and I spent as many hours as I possibly could flying. Anyway, came in. I landed on the grass looking across the cockpit. The bloke did a perfectly good landing and then he obeyed the red flare, opened his taps up. A few seconds later he was dead. Or maybe a minute later. He took off. He — and the next thing before I had cleared the runway he killed himself. He’d gone into the ground. I don’t know whether he stalled or what he did. But then I can’t find my way in because I’m, I’m not on our aerodrome and I turned off left which is what I would do at home and I went in to no man’s land. And eventually I rang up and they sent a vehicle and I followed the vehicle in. And when I get there of all the people, I went into the mess and of all the people I bumped into was my Dougie Wiltshire my old bridge partner who I knew in Canada. Who I did the rigging to. Anyway, we’re there. Then we get posted to Lindholme and Lindholme is where we picked up on to Wellingtons and the Wellingtons was a different thing. But we’ve got to get a crew on. We were in an assembly room and all the different trades, you know, gunners and navigators, wireless ops, flight engineers, bomb aimers and etcetera and you just — I found a navigator. His name was Brinley and he’d got, what? He’d passed matric and stuff and I thought I couldn’t pass a bus let along matric. But he must be better than me but he should be able to navigate and we built the crew together somehow. It just happened. They just came together. We had a little tiny chap with the accent. You know — accent. You know. Clarence Derby. He was the rear gunner. Then there we had a mid-upper gunner who at the end of the training and when we were getting ready to go on operations suddenly decided it wasn’t for him and he went. In those days we’d call it LMF. He disappeared. I can’t, can’t remember his name or anything. We had brilliant navigator. Bill Johnson as a flight engineer. Noel Bosworth was bomb aimer. Who have I missed out? Oh Les Skelton, Australian. Still in touch with him. He’s the last one alive. He, he lives in Australia. Lived in Western Australia. I think that’s the whole crew. And then of course we start flying together. One of the interesting things. I pulled the flap. Now in an Oxford they had a flap lever but the propellers were locked so that they weren’t variable but they had a flap lever to try and get us used to [pause] not flaps. What am I talking about? What do they call it? Constant speed. The propeller going to coarse pitch and fine pitch. That’s what I’m talking about. I’m sorry. And when you were in you normally you take off in fine pitch. And to get it in fine pitch you pulled the lever up and the same thing. Well I got all mixed up and I landed up with the Lanc and pulled the bloody wheels up. And I knew immediately what I’d done and pushed the lever down again and they didn’t collapse. They didn’t. They stayed down. Two of them stayed down and the third one came up. It was the tail wheel. And so I got the crew out. I got underneath the tail wheel, lifted up the wheel came down and nobody knew. Luck. Anyway, fortunately I put the, realised and pulled the handle down quick. Anyway, we got, you become if you can fly, I know the kite was much bigger and there was a lot more to learn and you know from the operational point of view but one of the things I remember that stands in my mind was I’m in my mess having my dinner in the evening and I hear a bunch of kites taking off. And then I’m having my breakfast the next morning and they’re bloody well landing. And I’m thinking God they’ve been up there in the dark all night while I’ve been asleep. And I thought, God that’s terrifying. You know. But the training was extremely good and as you progressed through the course it was absolutely no problem. You know it was just, but, you know, the difference between no knowledge and a little knowledge and a lot of knowledge is a big difference. Anyway the thing worked fine. We spent hours and hours and hours on the bombing range trying to do the impossible. Getting a ten pound bomb somewhere near it. But you know if you do it enough times you get a bit better but you never become perfect. We got a lot better and I have dropped one or two real perfect bombs when I was on 617 Squadron later. But with these, S, I think they were called SABS. Semi-Automatic Bomb Site. They’d brought out another thing that had another word. It was like, I think it was an ABS. An Automatic Bomb Sight. That was later. That’ll come in in a minute. Anyway, so the net result we become pretty proficient and towards the end of the, of the course they sent us out on a diversionary thing. So, there was a bombing raid and they sent a whole bunch of us out to try and divert the enemy defence set up and then of course we all came back and landed and that was that. And then we were posted [pause] I cannot remember where. And in my book I don’t think I’ve got it. But it was on to a Halifax. It might be in the book but it’s slipped out of my mind at the moment. But we were posted on to Halifaxes and this four engines and this lasted no more than a week to two weeks at the most. And then we went to, in Lincolnshire, this and I’ve stayed there. The officer’s mess is now a hotel. And the name I know and it’s in the book. And I can give it to, I’ll have a look and I can find, look it up. I will think about because as it happens I managed to get the room I had while I was there.
CB: That’s Woodhall Spa.
KT: No. Woodhall Spa. I did that as well. In Woodhall Spa I got my old room when I went to a 617 reunion. But no, this was, anyway at the time the squadrons had been there or they eventually were there but it was a Conversion Unit onto a Lancaster. And then I’m posted on to Elsham Wolds. 576 Squadron Elsham Wolds and at the same time I’ve gone from sergeant, because I was a sergeant pilot. You became a flight sergeant automatically after six months. But eighteen months later I was still a sergeant because I’d had one or two — well because of the problems I had at Mont-Joli. Anyway, I went from sergeant, flight sergeant to pilot officer in five minutes. You know, when I say five minutes — in a matter of about three or four months. And I was given a bit of leave. I’m not sure if the whole crew was given some leave but I went down to London to All Kits I think it was called. Was it Cambridge Circus? All Kits. Got myself the gear and its surprising. The money was so cheap in those days. I think the allowance and I’m not sure, was forty pounds. And out of that you got a great coat, a uniform, and a couple of shirts I suppose. I can’t remember. Oh, the a hat. Your forage cap would be ok. Anyway, there we were. So I’m now Pilot Officer Trent with my kit bag and I’m off to Woodhall Spa. Not Woodhall Spa.
CB: Elsham Wolds.
KT: Elsham Wolds. Incidentally I’ve hunted at Elsham Wolds. You know. With horses of course. Anyway, that’s a by the way. So I get as close as I can on the bus. Barnetby le Wold. And they dropped me off and I’ve got about three miles walk but it shows how green I was. All I should have done was to have gone into a hotel, got a pint of beer and rung up and said I’m at such and such a hotel and they’d have picked me up. But I walked with my kit bag on my shoulder and I’m walking along a pace at a time. And I get the frights. As I’m walking along and I’m thinking I wonder if I’m going to walk back. I just wonder. And I get on and on and walk on and on and I walk and walk. And eventually I get there and kind of shelve it but you know it’s a thought that’s gone in your mind. I go into the mess. No. Not the mess. Sorry. I went and reported in and a batman showed me my room. I got myself sorted out and then I went into the mess and there was a little bugger, for a better word, with a pint of beer. He’d got wings and he’d got a DFM. And he was my sort of bloke. And the first thing he said, you know, he spoke to me straight away — his name was John Stevens. And John Stevens he’s died years ago. One of his sons, it’s got me a little bit funny because I’m so involved with family. One of his sons is my godson. His daughter lives in Jersey. She lived with us and was married from our house years ago now. Forty years ago actually yesterday. Forty years ago Sunday. But there we are that’s one of those things. They hit you on the soft spots. Anyway, so old John he’d done a tour of operations. And he starts talking to me about, you know, it’s all going on but not at that moment but the information gradually came over. One of the things was where he was such a good friend was he had a car and I didn’t have. So I had to make sure he was a good friend but he was and he said, you know, talking about operating. He said, ‘Be aggressive.’ Now then. This is not everybody’s thought at all but, ‘Be aggressive. If you’ve got any idea you can see one get the boys to fire at it. Be absolutely aggressive. Don’t, whatever you do, go through a target before somebody else is coned. Let, let you know if you’re early, whatever you do do anything but don’t be early what ever,’ And this is something and this is something you’ve trained your own navigators. But there was several things like this you know. That was for getting coned. Avoiding predicted flak. He said that his system that you don’t, you can’t do anything about first bunch. The first lot of flak. That comes and it’s too close for comfort. But you know it’s predicted automatic because there’s nothing going and all of a sudden bang bang bang bang bang all around you. So if you alter your direction, drop your height a bit, say you altered to the right or to starboard and drop down a hundred feet. And then you tell the crew look up there and in twenty seconds you’ll see a load of shells go off and you’ll see and it is. And I got caught, very badly caught in that predicted flak much later on, and when I was on 625 Squadron and taking a new crew. And the thing is keep your head. Keep counting and keep altering your direction and your height up and down. And it’s, there is a lot of luck because there’s more than one gun. There’s a gun battery but if you get another battery starts up then the timing suddenly alters and it all goes a bit wrong. But nevertheless it was all good advice. And we became firm friends and then the squadron was moved to Elsham Wolds. And I got on very well with the Elsham Wold, all the guys at Elsham and including the station commander. Group Captain Duncan did about eight flights with me as flight engineer. And you know so I was I was a bit of a party boy. Not a party boy. What do you call it? I was, it was a nice happy relationship with everyone. And I had, you know, operations. I remember the first operation. It was, this was one you remember the details and it was in Holland. I think the place is called [unclear]. I’ve actually got it. Can you? I think it’s in here somewhere. No it’s not. No. That’s the other thing. Anyway, I remember coming home. It was absolutely a piece of cake. There was no problem. It was daylight. With tonnes of fighters kicking around because it wasn’t, and the only problem coming back between Brussels [pause] I’ve looked all this up. And anyway in the Brussels area we got into a load of flak but otherwise it was nothing. It was an absolutely piece of cake. Well then the operations started and strangely I’ve got I can go through all my operations. Do you want me to do that?
CB: Later.
KT: Well it would take a hell of a long time.
CB: Later. Later.
KT: Yeah. Ok. To just tell you some of the important operations or the ones that stand out in my mind. We were going to Cologne. No. Further in. Where the hell was it? It was, and this is documented everywhere. In the tele, on the computer and everywhere. This particular raid. And it wasn’t Munich. I don’t. No. It wasn’t Munich. It was quite a, a fairly deep penetration and we took off and the, there was a massive cumulonimbus set up and we had to climb up to get over the top of it. And my rear gunner Clarrie had a problem. And he asked if he asked if he could get out of his turret. And he forgot to lock the turret. And the turret turned and trapped his legs. And brother. It says in the official report he requested assistance. In fact he was screaming. God. It’s a bit nerving when somebody’s screaming like made down the — but he, I sent the bomb aimer back, who was his friend, to help him. And when he got there the screaming had stopped. I’d said to him, you know, ‘If you don’t stop screaming we’re not going to do anything about it.’ And I think it would have crushed his legs. I don’t know. But by the time Noel got back there his oxygen had become disconnected and he’d passed out. So, he wasn’t, he wasn’t making any noise but I stopped the starboard outer engine. With the starboard engine drives the rear turret so that to stop the pressure and then he goes back there. He gets Clarrie sorted out and he gets him on the bench. There’s a rest bed just forward of the main spar on the left hand side of the port side of the kite. Anyway, he gets him on there and then I’m faced with do I — which way do I go? Do I go back home? I’m losing height and I’m going into the top of this cumulonimbus lot. And I think just start the engine. When I started the engine it looked as if it was on fire. And I left it until it was on fire and then I stopped it and it went out. So, I started it again. Left it for ten minutes and started it again and it still caught fire. So I stopped it and operated the graviner and the fire went out but I can’t use the engine any more. So I have got no rear turret but I went on to the target. Dropped the bombs. And I couldn’t get over the top of the cu nim coming back because it was a massive big front. So I went underneath and I came down low and I went underneath. And because I was only a few feet above the sea. You know, maybe a hundred feet. Something like that when after we crossed the coast and as luck would have it we never had fighter interest although we were on our own. And so that was lucky. Anyway, coming across and what do we see? A life raft with seven blokes in it. A kite has come down and we managed, we stayed there until we were just about running out of petrol but we managed to get so many things to go towards them to pick them up. There was a [pause] what do you call it, a coaster. I think he was hauling coal backwards and forward. I think it was a collier. I’m not sure but it was certainly a vessel. There was, a destroyer was involved and they motored, you know, small boats they put over the side. But the net result was I flew back and sent their exact position. And we gave their position but we could take you could plot back and give them the exact position. Anyway, they saved the crew. They were all, they picked them up. And then of course I came back and I was well late. Came in and landed and that got the first DFC. You know we did quite a few. The — oh yeah I must tell you this. Whilst in 617 Squadron and I don’t know how many operations I did there. I can’t remember. But because it was anyway I flew three different Lancasters. Now, when I say I me and my crew flew three different Lancasters that all did over a hundred operations and it is the, it’s only a statistic but we were the only bomber crew throughout the whole of the war that did that. You now, this is a heavy bomber crew. And that is, just as I say, a statistic. Anyway, we got moved down to Kelstern. Kelstern is the coldest bloody place in Lincolnshire and it’s the furthest place from a pub and thank God for Steve because we were able to do our stuff. You know. Another interesting thing the first possible night in the week when we were stood down we, Steve and I used to go front row of the stalls in the theatre and eye up the chorus. And you could, you could, there was a bar and the bar was on the right hand side of the stage. So, you went up a few steps onto — and there was this blooming bar and we’d get the direct birds into there and so we got a girlfriend for the week, you know and actually some of them, one or two of them, one of them from my point of view who I got to know quite well. And she said you get “The Stage” and you can find out where I am every week. Which was quite nice. When it was close. Not too far away. But unfortunately I hadn’t got the services of Steve then because [laughs] But anyway, so it went on. But now, what happened then? Then I had finished my tour and none of my crew wanted to stay on. Oh I forgot to tell you. Most important. When we went on to [pause] converted on to Halifaxes I needed a mid-upper gunner and he was a flying officer. Flying Officer Riccomini. And Riccomini spent the rest of his working life in the air force and retired as a squadron leader and I have been up to see him several years but I’ve not seen him, I haven’t been in touch lately unfortunately. I haven’t. He must have moved. But he had a nice house and he lived and he had quite a nice life. So, now, Riccomini was on his second tour so he only had to do twenty operations and he disappeared. Well, when he disappeared I picked up a little bloke. He was Flight Sergeant Arthur and he had done a tour and he was a, he wanted to keep going. So I picked him up as a rear gunner and he became known as Gremlin. And a gremlin was always in the rear turret. And he was, he was an aggressive little sod. He was just the sort of bloke I wanted in the rear turret. Anyway, the tour is finished so I’ve got Gremlin and nobody else. Well, on one occasion I took all the leaders. You know the bombing leader, nav leader, engineer leader and the gunnery leader and, and there was absolute hullabaloo because if we’d been shot down. And so that never happened again. But I wound up taking new crews. Now, a second dickey normally comprises an experienced crew and just the pilot goes with the experienced crew. And he does, this was how my second dickey was. But this time we took the inexperienced crew and the pilot, the inexperienced pilot came with me and would act, along with the engineer, as a kind of second engineer between them. And Gremlin in the tail. But [pause] and we do you know thirty one, thirty two, thirty three thirty four and they’re going up doing these sort of things. And then I got a dead lot. A real, and I, this was to Munich and he lost him. The navigator had lost the plot completely and we were well in over Germany. And we had, I mean I didn’t know at that. I mean one of the things you can get some, you could start to make a bit of a pattern in your mind of searchlight patterns. Where you can see towns. You couldn’t. You know. But Munich is a long way in. Anyway, I dumped the bombs, turned around and I flew. I cannot think of the course but an estimated course of my own. My own [unclear] was going to get me over the North Sea and then I’d go over England and we’d spot — we’d get a pinpoint off the ground. And anyway of course, so what happens we got into really prolonged predictive flak and it went on because I must have been on an unfortunate sort of a heading because I was going from one load of guns onto another lot and it happened. I don’t know how long we were coned, we were predicted but it went on and on and on. To keep counting on following Steve’s advice proved to be quite something but we got through the end of it and at the end of it you’d be surprised how bloody hot you are. I was sweating like a pig. And I don’t know why but maybe it was fright. It’s a thing. I don’t know. But anyway we got back to England. When we crossed the coast the bloke had got the Gee box on and he’d got the, and he told me the course to steer so I never had to go and look for the airfield. He told me the course. We came in and landed and they were sent back for training. And a very strange thing. It’s about fifteen twenty years ago. We knew a hotelier here and he said we’ve got a bloke here that used to be a pilot in the, a navigator, a Lancaster pilot in the war. ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I’ll come and have a chat with him then.’ So I went around there and it was him. Of all the people. He said, ‘Ken Trent. He said `You chucked me out. You sent us back.’ So, I said, ‘Yeah and you’re still alive.’ You know. But anyway, so where have we got to? Now this went on and I’d applied to transfer to 617. Eventually. It wasn’t too long. Oh something before this. We came back and it was thick fog. This is actually — the funny in my voice is nothing to do with the the fog. We were, we were diverted back. I think it was Ludford Magna. And when you got there you could see it because FIDO is hundreds of thousands of gallons of petrol being set alight through little pipes. There was some pipes with little holes in and it’s going out and it takes about a quarter of an hour I think to get the lift the fog sufficiently enough to bring the kites in. But you could see the brightness from quite a long way away. Anyway, so I went to Ludford Magna. The first thing they say is how much fuel have you got? Well if you’ve got three hundred gallons you would say two hundred because you, because you knew what was going to happen. They were going to get you to [pause] and all you wanted to do was get on to the ground. Anyway, so they’d send you on a cross country and then when you came back they would, at the time they would put you in the stack. And you would be on the top of the stack. And I can’t remember whether it was a hundred feet you came down but they would bring, give permission for somebody to land and they would go through the stack an bring everybody down to the next height lower. I don’t know whether it was a hundred feet, two hundred feet. I don’t think it could possibly five hundred feet. That would be too much. Anyway, they bring you all down until it was your turn to land and when I landed and went in there was a message. My mum was seriously ill in hospital and it’s is going to upset me a bit. Anyway, I took off as I was with my helmet in a bag and I just went. You know, flying gear, the whole bloody lot. And they had a railway warrant. I went down. I went to see the hospital and she seemed as bright and cheery as if there was nothing wrong with her. But she’d had, in those days they weren’t anywhere near as advanced with cancer and they’d had a look inside and discovered — and just sewed her up again. There was another lady there she’d palled up with there and she said, ‘She’s dying. She might last three months. The doctors say might last three months.’ And so if, you know, a little later I went back to camp and of course any opportunity I was home. And I got some leave to go home and what’s she doing? She’s cleaning the place. The shop, the house, from top to bottom while she still had the strength. Before she died. I was there when she died. Twenty one minutes past ten on the 29th of April 1944 and — 1945 sorry. The end of the war. Anyway, so of course I’m I get back to camp eventually and the transfer or the posting comes to 617. And when I got to 617 Squadron all of a sudden I thought that I might survive the war. This was January 1945 and we’d lived a pretty heavy life from the drinking and etcetera and, you know, because I suppose we were just having as good a time as we could possibly have whilst we were here. But it was accepted in a way and you didn’t, you weren’t lying in bed thinking, ‘Oh. Am I going to die?’ Nothing like that. Maybe you’d had so much to drink you’d been to sleep anyway. But I, the, it was the atmosphere at 617 was it was a special place and they were all special people. But I’m not that special. I felt that I wasn’t that special. And although it was a fantastic squadron and they did some fantastic things. Things that, you’ve got to admire everything about them but I went out for a walk, came out of the Petwood, turned right and a little way on the right hand side is a farm. And there was a long straight line right up to the little cottage where the farmer lived. And I went down there looking for eggs and he was milking. And he was, he’d got — his kids and his wife were milking. And he was carrying, with a yolk, I don’t know how many but maybe five gallon, six gallon buckets. I don’t know. Four gallon. They were big buckets of water from a pond and he was carrying them in to where the cows were to water the cows. So I said, ‘Oh I’d like to have a go at that.’ And I became very friendly with the family and all the drinking went out of the window. I wasn’t drinking. And he couldn’t read or write but he was a lovely, lovely man and his wife. And while they were there they were up to all the things the farmers were doing. I haven’t, you know this to me was more interesting than the than the operations. They killed a pig. Illegally of course and they knew exactly what to do. And I could go through the whole performance but its — and the whole thing goes. When I go home, I’ve got a car by now, when I go home I’ve got a sack of spuds you know. A chicken. A dozen eggs. And a lump, a lump of bacon because it wasn’t for pork. It was for bacon in the boot. Which today of course if you were stopped by the police you would wonder what the heck but it never occurred to me that that might happen. Anyway, they’d let you off because you’ve got wings and the DFC on you. Anyway, so 617 Squadron. I didn’t spend as much time in the mess and I never made a close buddy because I was involved more with the farm and I also wasn’t drinking much. I’d have an odd beer but I certainly I wasn’t getting pissed or anything like that at all. Well. Some of the operations. The first one I did was to Bielefeld Viaduct. I can remember that as a first. I can remember the last which was to Berchtesgaden. I’ll talk, there’s a bit more about Berchtesgaden in a minute. I think there’s one or two. I’m not sure which it is. One was a viaduct and the other was a bridge and it was the bridge and I can’t remember which one it is. Arnsburg comes in my mind. But I do know it and it’s in my book. But because we know. And I had a Tallboy which was a twelve thousand pounder and — Left. Left. Right. But I must tell you. I was talking about a bomb sight a lot earlier on. Now the bomb site now was an automatic bomb site. Not semi automatic. And the, the thing that happens is this. About ten minutes, a quarter of an hour before we get to the target you take a three drift wind and it’s quite a simple thing to do. You can either do it — the gunners can do it for you or you’ve got to get the land going down straight and it gives you the direction of the wind. And you can calculate the direction and strength of wind. Or you can do it with a hand bearing compass. Anyway, the navigator does that and that’s passed to the bomb aimer who enters it into the bomb sight. Now the bomb sight is a big box of tricks to the left of the actual thing of the sight. So he feeds that in. The air speed is automatically fed in. And the height is automatically fed in. Then there are corrections for air speed and corrections for height which the navigator works out and passes and they go in. And all this time you’re flying straight and level and you have, apart from you’ve taken your sixty degrees either side to get your wind and then you’ve got near enough a ten minute straight and level flight. You’ve got the, it’s all daylight because you’re doing, you’re dropping a bomb on a particular object. And the bombsite consists of a piece of glass about an inch and a half wide and I would think say five, six inches long. Now I’m only talking from memory but this is to give you the idea. Now, as you came, as you were approaching the target and the target would start to come on to the glass and then there’s a big cross with — it’s shorter on the [pause] and it’s longer on the direction into the cross. And the bomb aimer gets it on to the end of the leg of the cross. ‘Left. Left. Right. Steady, steady. Ok. Ok.’ And then he says, ‘Bomb site on.’ And when the, that means he’s switched on the bomb site and it should, the perfect thing is that the cross is there on the target and it stays there and as you travel forward the glass gradually depresses to keep, and it should stay there. And the bomb site releases the bomb. Not the bomb aimer. And this was a really accurate but for all that the idea of the bomb was to get as close to the target as you could and you made sure. The bombs were so big. I mean there was the Grand Slam or special store that was ten tonnes. Which was a massive, it was quite a bit bigger but for all that the twelve thousand pounder would make a big enough hole for most things nearby to fall into the hole. Or [unclear] into the hole. Well this particular one and I never saw this. Only from the pictures afterwards. ‘Left. Left. Right. Steady. Bomb sight on. Bomb gone.’ And then the bomb aimer, ‘We’ve hit the bloody thing.’ And he’d hit right in the centre sideways of the bridge and just maybe a twenty foot overshoot. I mean incredible fortunate bomb. And there were three pictures and these were posted up in the very special little officer’s mess in Petwood Hotel. And the first one was a hole in. The second one was water splashing up and the third one was the whole bloody lot up in the air. That was, you know, that was something. On another occasion and now this has been recorded officially as a twelve thousand pounder bomb but it wasn’t. I carried. I wasn’t the first one by any means but I kept the first ten tonner, the first Grand Slam. The first specialist bomb that I carried. I can’t remember where we were going. But on the way out when we started to climb our, my oxygen was out of step. Wasn’t working and the squadron commander at the time was Jonny Farquhar. I shouldn’t say this but he wasn’t the most popular. Leave it at that. And he [pause] when I shouldn’t have told him but he said, he was getting on at me because I wasn’t getting up to height and I told him that we were having problems with the oxygen. And he said, ‘Go back.’ And we discussed it amongst the crew. Shall we pretend we can’t hear him or shall we go on? But we went back. So I’ve got, I’ve got, although as I just said it says in the, in the records that it was a Tallboy but it wasn’t. It was the very first one that I took up. And I blooming well knew that. Anyway, we’d then got to land and I landed ok but I came in and I thought you know I’d better just give it a little bit more speed and I was aiming to touch down right at the very beginning of the runway. And I might have touched down a third of the way down. The bloody kite floated down and seemed to float forever. Anyway, I was frightened to overshoot in case it wouldn’t overshoot with a full flap wheels and the bomb. So it stuck on the ground and we were going fast because, I mean there’s a hell of a lot of weight. And if you put the brakes on like that then you’ll burn them out in no time so you snatch the brakes and it keeps snatching the brakes until you get right to the end and that gave it a little inclination to turn to port. To turn left and of course the bloody thing was going to whizz around and it was going to wipe the undercarriage as far as I can and everything off. And I put absolutely full bore, full power on the port outer right through the gate as I turned off and as it came around. I mean how the undercarriage stood it I don’t know. But all of a sudden I shut it. I’m doing four miles an hour on the taxi trip. And that was, that to me I reckon was one of the danger spots. Now, the war. We did the Berchtesgaden. Get all the way there. The bombing leader was my bomb aimer and we got hung up. And so we carried the Tallboy all the way back home. But we used to land with Tallboys all the time. This is why I can tell you that it was a thirty five. You know, it was a Grand Slam. And I can tell you because I mean Tallboy we were bringing them back. If you had a Tallboy and somebody hit the target you would bring them back home because they were so scarce and there were so few of them. And I mean landing with a Tallboy was absolutely no problem at all because nowhere near the weight. Anyway, the war’s over. We left the Petwood. We went to Waddington. Lovely mushrooms all over the airfield. We used to pick them in the morning and take them in. Then we are sent to Italy to pick up some army types. And the first time we went was to Parmigliano. There was a great, a great party when we got there and we discovered that you could buy — oh what was it? Not cherry brandy. A fancy, a fancy liqueur that we had’t seen. Never. None of us had ever tasted. It wasn’t Cherry Heering. It was something like. What now you buy. It’s a yellow creamy lot. Anyway, I can’t remember what it’s called at the moment. Tia Maria. And it came out. I can’t remember. But say it was a pound. It was cheap. A pound a bottle or something like that. So of course we all bought a load of this stuff. Put it in the kite to sell to the pubs when we get home in Lincoln. Anyway, so we eventually next morning we’re not really feeling very well. We’re gathering all the guys up and they — I think, I can’t remember how many. The place is stuffed with brown types and soldiers and we take off and come home no problem. But we’re a little bit worried about the contraband and so we told the authorities. We called up and told them we had some problem with the engine and so they — I can’t remember where it was but I can’t remember the name. It was another place where they’d got an elongated runway. Very wide and there were two of them. Was Ludford Magna one? And was one Woodford or somewhere?
CB: Woodbridge.
KT: Where?
CB: Woodbridge.
KT: Woodbridge. Yeah.
CB: Suffolk.
KT: Yeah. That’s right. Woodbridge. Well we landed at Woodbridge. And I couldn’t remember where it was. And so we got a corporal comes out. ‘No. No. Nothing to declare.’ So that was that. So the kite’s at Woodbridge. Somebody took a look at the engine. That was alright. We stayed the night so the next day we flew back to base and we didn’t have to go through customs. So we got the stuff home. I’m near the end but I just, there are just one or two more things to tell you. One of them was we did another trip. This time we went to Bari which is the other side. And when we took off for the guys coming back home we were given a weather forecast that there was cloud. And you break through the cloud about four to five thousand feet and the cloud base was about a thousand feet or something. So we took off and climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed and I got up to ten thousand feet and we weren’t out of the cloud. And I thought well I can’t go any higher because I’ve got all these guys in the back. So, and then we started to get violent turbulence. So I said to the nav, we want to get, ‘Let me know when we’ve crossed.’ When I say violent turbulence you can’t believe it. You suddenly find your climbing at about five thousand feet, ten thousand feet a minute. Something. I can’t remember. So you stick the engine, you stick the kite down and you start losing height like mad. And then all of a sudden you get a bloody great bang and you’re descending at the same sort of speed and I said to the nav, ‘Let me know as soon as we’re clear of Italy and I aint going to get underneath it.’ And I may or not have told him we were going underneath but I had the experience of this. We were clear and I came down and down and all of a sudden I came out of the bottom and about a hundred, two hundred yards from the starboard side was a bloody great whirl of water being sucked up out of the sea into it. But we were underneath. You could see several of these all around and it was so easy from there on to fly. And we would fly back to the Spanish coast as we did the first time and then due north to England. Well, when we got back a bloke — they’d lost I think one kite. They lost a bloke. A mid-upper turret had come out of a kite along with the guy sitting in it. And another kite landed with a broken back. And they got it back and landed it. And that was the end of those. Now, the one thing I must tell you. Before I took off for this particular trip I took off and was, we was on course and the nav comes up. He says, ‘The Gee box isn’t working.’ So I said, ‘Well, it doesn’t matter does it?’ You know. He said, ‘There’s a Kings Regulations just come out. You’ve got to replace it.’ You know, ‘The regulations says you’re not to fly with it.’ If you get that you’ve got to replace it. It’s an after the war job. So I came in and as I was approaching I could feel the kite did that. Do you notice? Nothing. You know. Landed. Taxied in. No problem. Shut down. They’d changed it so taxied out. Took off. As I’m going down the runway and I’ve got to something like eighty miles an hour. Eighty five. So, and you need at least ninety five to take off. All of a sudden the runway went flying that way and I’m flying across it. You know. Careering across the grass. I put on full rudder. Bloody difficult because you’ve got this engine feathered, got the things. Put in boards straight through the gate. Took a little out of the port outer to ease it on the rudder and I’ve got my hand here on the rim, trying to, on the rudder trim. Trying to turn the trim. And the wing, we left the airfield and we’re over a field and the starboard wing touched the ground. So the net result the next thing and I’m not strapped in. The war’s over and all that and I haven’t strapped myself in and it touched the ground. I knocked the box off which disconnects, you know turns off all eight ignition switches. And there’s a handle. Have you been in a Lanc? Well you know where the handle is. You pull yourself up to get into your seat when you fly. As the pilot. Well that handle. I put, I put my hand on that and I put my head on my hand because I could see myself being smashed in to the [pause] and then all of a sudden when the bang came the thing did a cartwheel. It took the nose off. And we and there’s mud flying everywhere. My head goes through and the artificial horizon went like that. Never touch it. Next moment I’m in the top of the canopy. And the crew had got all the escape hatches off so they must have been working bloody quick. They were very quick. And I’d always said to my crew you know if ever I say, ‘Emergency. Emergency. Jump. Jump. If you don’t get out I won’t be there. I’ll be the first off. Out of this kite.’ I jumped up out of my seat, put my head in someone’s bum. Some bugger’s got in front of me. And I got up and got, got through. Sat on top. The engines are cracking as they’re cooling down. A hundred yards behind there’s the rear gunner running towards us. And the other guys are running away in case it explodes. And it looked to me to be a long way down to the ground but as you know of course it isn’t that far. But I slid down. The gunner had turned his turret to try and help with the directions. You know, to put some rudder on. And when the tail came down he burst through the doors and was dumped in a ploughed field. Sliding along in the mud. And he’s covered from head to foot in mud. Not a scratch. You know, it was one of those things. Anyway, that was I flew a few times after that but not much more. But I must do the last bit and the last bit I was posted. I thought about staying in the air force. I mean we all wanted to stay in but obviously there wasn’t a future there. You could stay you could sign on for three years and I reckoned at the end of three years it was going to be a bloody sight harder to make a living. But at the moment there were going to be millions of people coming out of the services and there was going to be a bit of money around. I’d better get hold of some of that. That’s how, and I wanted out. So they, as soon as they knew I was posted to a station. I cannot remember where it is but I bet I could find it. And I think I found it and it’s in here. But when — they don’t know what to do with you. And A) I don’t know who he was but somebody, a squadron leader bloke. I was an acting flight lieutenant then and he comes in and he takes me into an office and it’s absolutely full of paper all over the place. And it was the signals office. He said, ‘I wonder. We want you. Your job is to file all this lot. Sort this lot out. Get it in to order and file it.’ Ok. So off he goes and I sit down. It was cold. I looked at it and I thought well this is just bloody stupid. It’s a completely impossible thing to do. I mean, what can you do with it. Where are you going to put it? And it was cold so I put the first bit in the file and burned it. And two weeks later I burned the lot. All Gone. The office was tidy. Clean. Looked lovely. And I’m thinking boy this is going to be some bloody background to this. Something’s going to happen. I wonder. It’s going to be interesting. So the bloke comes in. ‘Oh I see you’ve sorted it. Good show old boy.’ End of story. I mean I just burned the bloody signals. All of them. Anyway, that is me for now.
CB: That’s really good. Thanks very much Ken.
KT: That’s good.
CB: Let’s just recap if we may.
KT: Yeah.
CB: You’ve got one DFC. What was the timing and –
KT: Ok.
CB: Occasion of the second DFC.
KT: Well, now I thought the bar to the DFC came because possibly my record in 617. And that has been my whole thought over all my life until I started to write the book. And then I got in touch with the Air Ministry and records and all this, that and the other and I discovered it was recommended by 65 Squadron. And it was nothing to do with 617. And I’m just going to add something else. I mean we’re all very old men now. And Aces High, who I think some of you may have heard of and know about they had a signing session at [pause] where’s it?
CB: Wendover.
KT: Wendover.
CB: Yeah.
KT: And there was a bloke there who was a pilot in 625 er 617 and he did thirty operations including the Tirpitz. But he didn’t do the Dams raid.
CB: That was Iverson.
KT: Who?
CB: Tony Iverson.
KT: And he doesn’t have a gong.
CB: That’s right.
KT: This is a bloke without a gong. All he got. He hadn’t got a DFC or anything.
CB: No.
KT: And this, that is true is it?
CB: Yeah –
KT: Well now I felt like writing in because it was this was Farquhar. Jonny Farquhar. He was not. All he wanted was stuff for himself or his favourites. But that man. Tony.
CB: Iverson.
KT: Iverson.
CB: He died last year.
KT: Yeah. Now I met him two or three years ago at Aces High.
CB: Yeah.
KT: I didn’t know he’s dead. I’m sorry to hear that. He was on the squadron when I was on the squadron.
CB: He was originally a fighter man.
KT: Yeah. But I thought that that was awful because he had done, in my — as I look at it, more than I did and he I thought that was absolutely terrible because he deserved it. He deserved it more than I did and I got two. Anyway, there we are.
CB: Fantastic. Thank you very much. We’re going to take a break now ‘cause you deserve a cup of tea.
KT: Oh yeah. I’d love a cup of tea. How long have we been doing that?
CB: I can’t see now.
KT: Oh I’ll put the light on. I’ll go and see if I can find some- i’ve got to be careful when I first get up.
CB: Don’t worry.
KT: I’m alright now.
CB: Ok.
KT: I’ll give you some light.
CB: We’re now going to have a break and we’ve done two hours and twelve minutes.
[recording paused]
CB: We’ve stopped the interview because ken has been going for two hours and it’s got to the end of the war although some things we haven’t completed. What we aim to do is reconvene another time and pick up on a number of points that are really important in this.
[recording paused]
CB: This interview is about two hours twenty minutes continuous. The plan is to continue the conversation at a later stage. Probably at Wendover, in the spring, when Ken’s book is due to be launched.
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Title
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Interview with Kenneth Trent
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-12
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Sound
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ATrentKL160112
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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02:13:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Shropshire
England--Cheshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
Canada
Québec
Queensland
Saskatchewan
Québec--Mont-Joli
Alberta--Innisfail
Saskatchewan--Swift Current
Germany
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Germany--Bielefeld
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1945
Description
An account of the resource
Ken grew up in London and joined the Royal Air Force on his eighteenth birthday as a pilot. After exams and interview at RAF Uxbridge, he went to Number 9 Receiving Wing in Torquay and an Initial Training Wing in Stratford-upon-Avon. He then trained in Canada at an Elementary Flying Training School in Swift Current. This was followed by Innisfail and North Battleford where Ken flew Oxfords. After becoming a pilot, he went to a bombing and gunnery school at Mont-Joli and flew Battles before returning to the United Kingdom.
Ken went to RAF Shawbury, flying Oxfords. He was posted to RAF Lindholme on Wellingtons where he crewed up. He was posted for a very short time on Halifaxes, followed by a Conversion Unit onto Lancasters. He then went to RAF Elsham Wolds and 576 Squadron. From flight sergeant, he quickly became pilot officer.
Ken shares some good advice he received from a fellow pilot and describes some of his operations. Ken was awarded two Distinguished Flying Crosses. His first operation was to the Bielefeld viaduct and the last was to Berchtesgaden.
Ken flew three different Lancasters for 617 Squadron and they were the only heavy bomber crew to carry out over 100 operations. During his time at RAF Woodhall Spa, he fostered a good relationship with a local farmer.
When the war ended, he went to RAF Waddington and flew back army personnel from Italy.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
576 Squadron
617 Squadron
625 Squadron
Absent Without Leave
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
Battle
bombing
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
faith
FIDO
Grand Slam
Halifax
Lancaster
military discipline
Operation Dodge (1945)
Oxford
pilot
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lindholme
RAF Woodbridge
RAF Woodhall Spa
recruitment
sanitation
take-off crash
Tallboy
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/930/11288/ALloydC180823.1.mp3
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Lloyd, Colin
C Lloyd
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An oral history interview with Colin Lloyd (b. 1933) He grew up in Lincolnshire and witnessed an aircraft crash.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2018-08-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Lloyd, C
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Colin Lloyd. The interview is taking place at Mr Lloyd’s home at Doddington, Lincoln. Also in attendance is Mr Peter Small. Okay Colin, let’s start with this, let’s start the interview. I’ll ask you, just tell me a bit, when and where were you born?
CL: 1933.
MC: 1933. Where was that?
CL: Torksey.
MC: Oh, you were in Tat orksey. So how long have you lived in this area?
CL: Pardon?
MC: How long have you lived in this area?
MC: Oh, we came up here about, well we came to Whisby Moor from Girton 1942, early ‘42 cause dad worked on the gravel pit down here you see and he got a place down there, and we moved there, down there Gravel Pit Lane, that’s how come me and me pal used to go across there where the aircraft was.
MC: Of course, the airfield.
CL: When we could, you know, we was at school some of the time like, you know.
MC: So being born in 33 you were about what, about six or seven, when war broke out, six.
CL: Oh yeah, seven
MC: Do you remember much about that?
CL: I can remember we lived at Spalford then, do you know Spalford? And we lived there, it was a Sunday, wan’t it. I was coming down the stairs when Chamberlain I think it was you know, saying consequently we are at war with Germany and that was, you know, and then of course after that that was it. Then we moved down from there to you lot know it, I shouldn’t, you might, Green Lane do you know it?
[Other]: Yeah.
CL: Between Girton and Spalford, we was there till about early 1942 and as I said, dad got that job here down at Wigsley see and he got a place with it, down the old lane there and then we came there and was there till about 1948 and then they got a new council house like, after the war.
MC: So growing up during the war, what was it like when, what was, you know?
CL: You know, when you’re youths, it don’t really bother you a lot does it, you know sort of thing. I mean I told your pal here about them two Junkers 88s, well, we lived down Green Lane then, that was, you know, just a lane but there was houses down there, but it was rough old sandy hills and that before they made it a bomb dump and of course, they came, like I told you, they came across from the Trent, oh I don’t know, they must have been less than a thousand foot up and I was stood on the dyke bank like, you know, looking, well you know that, you don’t bother, and the crosses was on the wings and the fuselage, but the swastika was on the tail. But you could see the men like I can see you, and they did one sweep over Wigsley and let ‘em have it like, Manchesters there then, and there was some smoke about so whether they set one on fire I don’t know like but then they cleared off but they shot ‘em both down didn’t they?
MC: Did they?
CL: Before they got to the coast like, but you could see the chaps, you know, they must have been about, five or six hundred foot up, that’s all, course that’s how they got in wan’t it, you know, be about six o’clock, five or six o’clock, summer night like and off they went like.
MC: So I mean did you see any more instances involving RAF aircraft?
CL: No nothing like that, but mostly in the early part there, of the war, you got the Halifaxes coming from Yorkshire and they used to follow the Trent I reckon. But the first lot to come was the Whitleys, cause they was slow, wan’t they, you know, and maybe about half hour after you get the Halifaxes coming cause they catch ‘em up by the time they got to the coast I should think won’t they, maybe, form up then like, but that was the early days before, well before they got the Lancasters, I think was it? When did they come in?
MC: Yeah, yeah, that was before the Lancasters, well they still used the Halifaxes at the same time as the Lancasters. So you used to watch them forming up did you?
CL: Well, they was formed up but they came along, you know, going down south, you know, wherever they turned off, and I should think they meet up there and form up you see like, but there was, it was funny, well it wasn’t funny, but young bloke, his parents had the petrol pumps on the main Newark to Gainsborough road there, and he went in the RAF like and he got to be a navigator and he had one ring I think, what would that be, aye, anyway he was a navigator, did quite a few trips from Finningley, and in the end he got clobbered like and that was it. But he was a nice chap, cause I can remember me and another old boy, we used to play about a bit, and he was on leave you see and he gave us a toffee out of his pocket, you know, which was luxury then, wan’t it. But he got, you know, done in the end like but, and that was that like. Then of course we, as I said, dad got the house down ‘ere and we moved down ‘ere in 1942.
MC: So you’ve been here ever since.
CL: Yeah. And that’s it like. Cause that was open, wan’t it, early on I suppose, before that wan’t it, Manchesters here wan’t they
MC: So did you get on to the airfield much?
CL: Well we used to go, there was a young lad lived at, well you know where you turn up to Hykeham, the junction there, well there used to be two cottages there, farm cottages and I was mate out with the son of one of them, we when we wan’t at school, walk up there between the, up the roadway like, and past the guardhouse because the guardhouse was about half way up wan’t it.
[Other]: I can’t remember it.
CL: No. Is there a farm track there, you know when you get over the roundabout, keep going, is there a track going to the right yet? There used to be a farm down there.
MC: To the left.
CL: To the right, going towards Lincoln. And the called the farmer Halsey.
[Other]: There was a farm down there, wan’t it.
CL: Well he had it during the war, this Halsey, you know.
[Other]: [Unclear] My father used to work there.
CL: The RAF blokes, the officers, some of them used to have MGs as you know, and Morgans didn’t they, three wheels, well when they’d been on operation I should think, debriefed or whatever they did, maybe an hour after, some of them used to come out the guardroom there and straight across the road and down there, through the farmyard and on to the Wigsley road you see, to Hykeham, instead of going down to the bottom there and turning right, you know, there’s a short cut to Hykeham, so whether they was living out I don’t know, but most of them was officers cause they got their, well they’d got their flying jackets on some of them, you know like. That’s what they used to do like, because at the bottom was the hospital. The RAF hospital.
MC: Yes, sick quarters.
CL: Yeah. Cause they used to be, well nice weather they used to sit outside and probably got their arm bandaged up, leg or whatever, but the real serious ones I should think they take ‘em to that military hospital at Lincoln wan’t they.
MC: There was one at Nocton.
CL: There was one at Lincoln.
[Other]: St George’s.
MC: Oh yeah.
CL: Because my brother was in there, when he come back from Japan, soldier he was like, yeah. I don’t think there’s any of it left now is there.
MC: Not much.
CL: I don’t think so, no. And as I say we used to go over there but luckily we wan’t over there that day when that bombs went up you were talking about.
MC: You were around then were you?
CL: I was down the lane you see, well, we happened to be off school and was down the lane, at home more or less and but outside and then there was this hell of a bang and you could hear, you know, sommat whistling through the air – shrapnel I should think - and I told you didn’t I, this old farm what used to be there, it was smack in line for the, about three fields off but, smack in line with the airfield if you get me, where they went off and me brother worked for this farmer and he happened to be in the cow shed and there was one or two horses in there and me brother said the blast was that terrific he said that some of the horses got on their knees with the blast, you know, and when they went outside all his windows were out his house, you know. I told you didn’t I he said to me brother Jim like, said come on boy, I’m going over there, see the CO blowing all my windows. Anyway, got over there, and there’d be RAF blokes about wan’t there and he said I want to see the CO and the bloke said oh well we’ll get him for you like, whoever he was. And of course Tom went too, and the farmer said blown all my windows out and everything, and my brother Jim said, the CO said you’re bloody lucky mate he said, you got the blast it’s a wonder it didn’t flatten your house! You know, it went that way. The the thing was I think he rented some of the land off Halsey, and it was grassland between the airfield and there, his farm, the road, Whisby Road he thought maybe some would get shrapnel in you see, but luckily Jim me brother said he was lucky like, one or two of them got a bit but nowt to [unclear]. He reckoned it laid the hedge over, I told you didn’t I, I [emphasis] didn’t see it but my brother did, he said it laid the hedge over, big hedge, it was aye, you know in them days didn’t bother a lot did they and there was this big hedge and some of the blast caught it, it laid it over and then of course it come back again, just shows don’t it.
MC: Yeah. Force of the blast.
CL: You said there was a lot, hell of a lot on it wan’t there, yeah, bombs like.
MC: I should clarify at this stage we’re talking about RAF Sculthorpe aren’t we.
CL Yeah that’s right.
MC: We never mentioned that.
CL: That’s it. Where the roundabout is, I don’t know whether you know but there was a QR stood there, dispersal there, you know, there was two squadrons wan’t there, QR that was, once or twice we used to walk over that, we didn’t go on airfield, but there was crash gates there, where the runway end was, but the ordinary, was just rough old dyke and bits of hedge, you know, further on but it went, well I don’t know, the dispersal was empty a couple times if I remember right, but whether he got shot down or whether, you know, he was doing maintenance, you don’t know. Because we were, when there was, if it was daylight they was going a bit early on a raid like, wherever they went I should think I don’t know, they used to go early didn’t they sometimes, daylight, course they drop the crews off you see, and you’d see ‘em there walking about, and get in like, and crank up and if they was taking off from this end going towards the cathedral we used to be able to watch ‘em, you see like, if they was coming from both ways like.
MC: You could get fairly close to it.
CL: Oh yeah, I should say about from here to that, you know that tree there, maybe a little bit further, not much.
MC: We’re talking about twenty yards aren’t we.
CL: Yeah. Well, lads you don’t bother, as you know, we used to put a finger up, I don’t know whether it’d be the pilot would it or flight engineer, which side would he be on, he was taxiing from Skellingthorpe side, be flight engineer wan’t it.
[Other]: It would, yeah. on the right
CL: Wave to you like and then there was that there trolley on the side you know, and flash ‘em a green mate open up and off they’d go, bloody hell, you know once it started taking off mate swung the next one round and they gave ‘em another, and other chap was only half way down the runway and that’s what happened that night, what I told you, when they blew up, they didn’t get off, well they got off the floor but they was going that way that night, towards over Whisby.
MC: Yeah, yeah
CL: The flight path like. Well, where that there restaurant is now that was the, over the top of that more or less, and it was about, I don’t know roughly round tea time, five o’clock time, daylight, and it was after D-Day, I’m sure it was and it was taking off, and of course one or two went up and we wasn’t there, we was more or less on the Whisby road, not, about three fields off like watching them, you know and anyway all of a sudden there was a bloody great bang and this black smoke went up, you know, course one had come down, he’d got off the runway and over the road and pretty well up the first field, and then whatever went wrong, he went in like and that was it. Course you know what we’re like, lads, off we went, you don’t realise do you? That’s when we, I told him, we found two blokes, well, we see two blokes like, they was in a hell of a mess they was, and there was oxygen bottles, oh I don’t know, a couple of oxygen bottles a fair way from where some of the plane was like, you know, and there was incendiaries smoking, they were about that length wan’t they those incendiary bombs, and they were smoking you know and that but the big bomb it must have blown up because the airplane was you know blown up like, four thousand pounder maybe was it?
MC: Probably, yeah, probably. If it was after D-Day they, that would be the daylight raids when they were supporting the invasion.
CL: Aye. I was going to say it was about five o’clock time, when they was going like, and oh and what they did then, as soon as he came down and blew up, I should think it killed ‘em all, must have done, anyway, the chap behind him couldn’t stop, so he kept going, he had to do and we thought he was coming down, well he went through the smoke you see, and the bloody thing, I’m not lying, it bloody rocked like that it did, you know, there for a bit wan’t it you know, seeing it, [unclear] couldn’t stop you see, cause you know very well, once one had gone when they give ‘em the green, he gave the other bloke a green and all and he was only half way down the runway, you know.
MC: Too late to stop.
CL: Cause we used to go, sometimes late at night, but when it was not dark but just getting dark, you get me, just to see ‘em in day, half daylight, some of the WAAFs and some of the ordinary air force blokes used to be there, you know waving to ‘em see, and you know off they went and that was it. One behind the other, like.
MC: Yes they used to wave them off regular.
CL: Course that way, going over Lincoln, cathedral way wan’t they. Oh aye, but when, that did upset us a bit when you see them two dead blokes, not a lot like, cause you’re lads aren’t you, but you remember it, you know, but we didn’t see any more cause, oh there was a, by the time in minutes like, there was RAF fellers there you see, and we said something to this RAF bloke about these here chaps like, oh he said clear off you lads, no place for you which it wan’t, you don’t realise do you? We was about twelve I think, something like that you see, so we hopped it like.
MC: So did you see any of the airfield, did you get on to the airfield after, you know, after the war?
CL: Well I used to bike by see, going in to town well when the war finished, they wan’t long taking the Lancs away was they, then that stacking sommat on it, I don’t know, big pipes, big bloody great pipes, they stacked them on there they did, and if I remember right, you know as you go now, to the roundabout on the left hand side, is there some old broken down concrete building, rubble? You know just before you turn, can you remember those gamekeepers places?
MC: Gamekeeper cottages.
CL: Well just by there, well that was a bomb wasn’t it. And petrol wan’t it.
MC: And petrol I think, yeah.
CL: Course not so long ago they found oil there, didn’t they.
[Other]: I’m not aware.
CL: Oh! You know when they were doing the roundabout, the second time, bulldozing about there, they reckon they found tanks full of bloody oil, from the war, you know, they was buried wan’t it. Anyway I wondered if it was still there, cause it was there for years, but that was the way in wan’t it to the, cause they used to have a guard on cause when we was lads guard we used to mooch about there and the guard used to tell us off you know, [laughter] you know but you did, didn’t you, you know.
[Other]: You told me you got on to the aerodrome one day with a, in a gravel truck from Wisby’s.
CL: Some what?
[Other]: As a passenger in a gravel truck, there was some -
CL: Oh aye, yeah. Aye well Atkins they call the firm. The had some women driving for them in the war time, they was six seven tonners, you know, well the gravel pit down there, Tealors, where dad worked, they used to go there you see and leave stuff for tea on, and it was a Saturday morning and Mrs Foster you call this lady what drove this one, she said to mam like, if you want to go to town, it’s my last load I’ll pick you up and take you, but we’ve got to go on to the airfield first and drop a load of sharp sand off you see, so anyway she did picked mam up and I went with her, [unclear] and we turned up there and through the guard room and there used to be an hanger there didn’t there, just through there and huts like, RAF ones, and the officers mess that side and anyway she pulled up at the guardroom she said to the sergeant or whatever he was, I’ve got this sand for you know so-and-so, oh he said you want to go through there duck, he said and near that hangar. Of course off we went and we got to the hangar and she said to a RAF bloke where do you want it and he said well tip it near the door, and there was a Lanc stood there and they’re putting this bloody great bomb on it, this four thousand pounder you know, just hoisting it up. Course she said to this air force chap what’s that, oh he said it’s a four thousand pounder. She said well you’d better sign my ticket, [laughter] let’s be off, she said, bugger this! But it wouldn’t have gone off anyway would it, if they’d dropped it, you know, I don’t think.
MC: A weight [unclear] down.
CL: Well they was just hoisting it in. Cause they used to take one four thousand pounder didn’t it, and so many incendiaries didn’t they? You know, full load. Because you see I got called up and I went to Berlin and it was a hell of a mess, you know.
[Other]: See it from the other end.
CL: Aye. They plonked that place, The Russians did an all, because the Russians, the Russians came in from their part where we were stationed at Spandau and they bloody knocked everything down there though.
MC: So when did you go to Berlin? When did you go to Berlin?
CL: It’d be 19, let’s see 1954, ’53. And we’re camp right, you’ll probably not know, you probably will, they called it Spandau jail, well we was opposite that. And it was a three stories high building and I was on the top floor luckily, and do you know who was there in that jail, I’ll give you a guess: Hess. There was Hess and what d’you call it armament minister, Speer, they was bloody big chaps oh bloody, cause we was up the top you see and you could see over the wall, and the, oh and there was a general, I don’t know who he was, he pegged out while we was there like and they used to let ‘em out inside, and as a hunger march if you get me, you know, walking round right, and they let Hess out cause he, I reckon he did about ten year didn’t he?
MC: Hmmm. Don’t know.
CL: Yeah, about ten year. They let him out, and Hess, Hess was the only bloke, oh the other, the general died there, that’s right, war criminal. They let Hess out I think.
[Other]: They let Speer out didn’t they.
CL: Speer out, that’s it, That’s it, and Hess was there. D’you know they had all these bloody blokes guarding the place for one feller, and if he was badly you know, they used to get him in the bloody ambulance, take him down the military hospital, looked after him like a lord, but they’d got all, all these guards round, on the top, electric fence outside, and the Russians did it for three month, we did it three, the Yanks did it three and the French did it three cause it was in four sectors, wan’t it, and they used to give lectures sometimes you know, some of these officers, and they used to say there’s about twenty divisions of Russians over the border, I thought what the hell can you do with that, there was only about three or four hundred of us and a few more others like. Wouldn’t have stood a chance, would you? Not really like, that’s how it was, wan’t it.
MC: So what was Berlin like in those days?
CL: Well it was you know, knocked about bad like, but I mean didn’t seem bothered much, not with us lot, well a lot of the places the pubs was out of bounds, you know, but the one what was near us we could go in that one. I always remember it because [unclear] bloke I told you didn’t I, ex SS sergeant, he’d been in the SS you know, big bloke like you, but he took that on like, but he didn’t bother us, or any bugger else like, it was business, wan’t it. But one night, I don’t know what happened, we wan’t out that night we heard this here well, bloody dogs barking, you know, outside on the road, away from the pub, the pub was about two three hundred yards down like, and they set about this bloke, this American chap these dogs, it appears he’d set the dogs on him like for some reason, I don’t know what, Yank like, one of them was a nasty Alsatian and bull terriers is it, or sommat and they was savaging him like and luckily our guardroom wasn’t far off and the guard went out and bloody murdered him they would, and he was shouting and bawling this here Jerry you know, anyway military police come and they all cleared off somewhere, they worried him, savage dogs wan’t they. I don’t know what happened mind you, you know, sommat in the pub like, anyway. Aye, bit of history isn’t it.
MC: That was National Service was it?
CL: Yeah. Well I signed for three year. I wouldn’t want to come out you see, I told you didn’t I, was going to go over with the battalion to Malaya, but mam and dad was struggling like in them days, as you know, there’s two or three more they’d got you see.
[Other]: Rationing was still on.
CL: I came out to help them a bit like.
MC: So what were mum and dad doing in those days.
CL: Well dad worked in the gravel pit, he worked about forty year, dad.
[Other]: Most of the gravel going for the airfield construction was it?
CL: Well I took a lot to RAF Coningsby, you know when they first did it for the Vulcans don’t you, 1952 was it? No ’53. ’55 that’s it, cause I didn’t come out till ’54, now, ’55, ’56 and they extended all the runways didn’t they, you know, for the Vulcan.
MC: When you came back from National Service.
CL: Pardon?
MC: What, when you came back from National Service, you went working there?
CL: I went back to, I worked there when I was a lad you see, luckily they wanted somebody to drive locos, can you remember [unclear] Hornsby’s Locos, and them down there you see, and Tubbs, take the stuff out and machine it all in took the machine then you took it up the plant you see, and they wanted somebody to drive it and when I left school you see I was lucky to get that, I did that for three year but you know, soon as you, seventeen and a half you all had to register, but if you was on the farm they didn’t bother you, but anywhere else they took you, cause that was it like, the way. When we went to Lincoln for six month there, no six weeks rather and they split us up in the end, there was about eighty of us in the intake and the forty went to Warwick for Korean training and I was in the forty what was sent on leave and we was going to the Sherwood Foresters in Germany, and they gave us a leave like, well it was a fortnight they gave us, but I got a telegram after a week: report back to the barracks, Lincoln for posting to Warwick for Korea. Well when we got to Warwick you see for the Korean training, the lads what we, you know, had gone there they was going to Korea anyway, they was all cheering and shout [laugh], you know, they thought oh lads, it serves you right you buggers like that. Of course we were all trained you know, I went through bloody murder there, didn’t half put it, I mean they put ‘em through it today, but they did, we went to Wales, up to North Wales there, bloody [unclear] up them mountains, full packs and everything, wet through, you know and the sergeants shouting, bawling at you, but I’m kidding you but when you got to the top you couldn’t have done nowt, if a bloody bloke had come and pushed you you’d have fell back, hard out and that was it, but that’s what you went through, in’t it.
MC: Yeah.
CL: We did all live hand grenades, there was big boxes them days, with about thirty in I think, thirty six mils grenade they was and they was all lathered thick with grease, you know, and of course the sergeants they were, knew what was on ‘em, take the mickey out of you. Two apiece lads he said and clean ‘em up and if you’ve left specks on back they don’t go off! The buggers they, rubbing like hell, you know, you would do, you [unclear]. When we’d done it they’d look at ‘em like and say they’re all reet. But he put the charges in you see, cause they’re very ticklish, You screwed the baseplate up and put the hammer down with the pin through and then you took it out, the base plug and put the charge in, it was so long and you had to get hold on it, not the actual part at the bottom, the wire type like, and put it in like that and then screw the cap back up tight, you know, and then it was ready for throwing you know. When we’d done that like, it was right get in that trench they said, they’d forty gallon drums about thirty, forty yards away, you know, and they said we want you to drop ‘em in there if you can, you know, somewhere. Anyway it come to my turn like, he said prepare to throw and when he said that you pulled the pin out, throw the bugger down, you see, throw, and then like that and then he said throw, and when you let go that was it, it shot off and the fuse went off you’d about five seconds. Well I got straight down and the sergeant got hold of me and get your bloody head up and start counting! Cause you had to count to about four, then he says get down and didn’t have the base plug, it always went backwards, the base plug and it was like a metal, you know, and you could hear it go over you, if it hit you like it would go through you, aye. That was the first’n you know I chucked like, but after that I always got down, you know, it, oh it was an experience and that was it.
MC: So when, going back to Berlin, I’m just interested in, you saw Berlin obviously Bomber Command did a lot of raids in Berlin
CL: Oh ay.
MC: I just wondered how much had been rebuilt or what?
CL: Oh there was some rebuilt, but a lot of it was like, I reckon, I told you, we went to Hamburg on a fortnight’s course, but that was from Goslar, you see when we first went to Germany we was the foot of the Harz mountains and it was an ex-Luftwaffe fighter base, you know, the mountains was here like that and half of Goslar was on the hill and half in a flat like and then of course you got the airfield you know and we went there first, and then we did two year there and that’s when they moved us to Berlin. Well we left Goslar at eleven o’clock at night the train, cause we had to go through the Russian sector you see. We was only about two mile out on it anyway.
MC: I was going to ask how you got in to Berlin. By train was it.
CL: So we went you know, round the mountains, and through Leipzig I think it was, the train stopped at different stations, but it said, the bloke, sergeant told us don’t lift the blinds up. I did, I said to my mate, I’ll have a look here, pulled up. I reckon it was Leipzig or somewhere and there was an East German copper on the platform, I think they wore a green uniform and the West German had blue like, anyway he looked but didn’t say owt like, and I dropped it again and we got to Berlin Spandau station at oh, let’s see, about seven o’clock in the morning, we started eleven at night, was a long way, you know cause we went round the mountains you see. When we got there, the CO, Lieutenant Colonel Wilson, he was injured bad in the war, and he had a, his back I think, mostly, he used to, he could walk round like, but he was always bit you know, but if we was going any distance he’d have a jeep. But he didn’t this time, they lined the battalion up like, he had the band there, it was a cracking band the Lincolns was, you know, and off we went, we had about a mile from Spandau station to the barracks like, and he marched in front of us, all the way you know, and the band got all their skins on you know, and Jerries was there, it was about half past seven that was, going through the streets you see, looking out the window, don’t know what they thought like. But he did it though, lad did, yeah.
MC: Yes, so you did three years, in, as National Service, well you signed on for three years did you.
CL: Yeah. Well as I say I was going to come out but with mother being that and dad suffering, you know, not too good yeah, and that was it like, and then I worked on the gravel pit for forty year, driving that thing in the corner there, on the photo, [laughter] sommat similar. They was hard work they was.
MC: That’s a picture of a Bucyrus crane is it?
CL: Yeah. Bucyrus. Yeah, but you know, well that wan’t too bad, it was air control, you got the short levers, but the old fashioned ones we had for the start for donkey’s years, the levers was like arms, you shove ‘em in and out, hard work like, now, you know, which you want it to be, they just touch a lever don’t they and what have you. Aye, that airfield though, don’t know if I tell you, when Mrs Foster see them bombs, that was it! You know, she was oop, sign this mate, [laughter]
[Other]: Wasn’t going to hang about!
CL: And that was it like.
[Other]: Was the airspace round the [unclear] active, was there aircraft all the time?
CL: Oh aye. Sometimes, would it be after D-Day, they was coming back in daylight, in morning, and coming back there were bloody lumps out their wings, bits out the tail you know, engines stopped, cause they’ve got landing lights all round here, you know they put ’em up didn’t they later in the war, and they used to go right round didn’t they, in a circle, give them a bit of an idea I think and if they was going to land this way in, from this way like, which they did sometimes, they was shooting those red flares out and I suppose they’d bring ‘em down first would they, they got wounded I should think on board, you know, but you know, as I say the engines stopped and bits out of the wing or tail, you know, flak I should think, I don’t know.
MC: Yeah. Fighter attack anything like that.
CL: But you knew a chap didn’t you flew from there, didn’t you, what flew from there? He was air gunner won’t he?
[Other]: No, he was an engineer.
CL: Engineer was he. Well he was at the side of the pilot wan’t he. I was looking at that one at East Kirkby you know, there was nowt to see it, where flight engineer was, it was only a little square bit, wan’t it, and drop it down, no lap room was there.
MC: Not a lot of room, no not very comfortable.
CL: They must have been tired when they come back, I mean Berlin must have been what eight hour run there and back, must have been tired, you know wan’t they. You know, well pilot he’s got an armour plate han’t he at the back. Oh no, Berlin, oh I was going to tell you. I went on a course for a fortnight, to Hamburg, that was [unclear] I told you didn’t I. In the middle, I don’t know if you’ve ever been there, since like, but in the middle of the city there’s this big well, like Lincoln is, but a lot bigger, a lake, you know and along there I’ve never seen so much brick rubble in my life, thousands and thousands of tons they took, you know, they really hammered that, they must have done. but on the outskirts where we was, it was hardly touched, you know, the outskirts of it, but it was really gave it some, thumped it.
MC: So they must have been pretty accurate with the bombing.
CL: I bet it was. Mind you, look what they did to London, you know. Thirteen weeks wan’t they, continual bombing, so they say, you know.
[Other]: The blitz.
CL: Aye. We used to go over there regular like, just to watch ‘em. One, it was a light night after D-Day it was about six or seven, maybe eight queuing up like, and then they just stopped and stopped the engines, and they were all seemed to sat in their planes for quite a while, so whatever happened I don’t know. But they stopped the lot like, you know, for a reason, they must have done, cause normally they just ticked over, didn’t they, till the time was right like, so they must, we cleared off then like, and well they wan’t moving and that was it like. But they must have gone later on. Probably sommat wrong was there.
MC: Probably cancelled the operation or something stopped them taking off, maybe an aircraft stopped on the end of the runway.
CL: Yes. They lost a lot of men here though didn’t they.
MC: Yeah.
CL: I read sommat about, not so long ago they dropped the biggest bomb loads from here didn’t they, in the war.
MC: They dropped most [unclear].
CL: During the war.
MC: I think they held some of the records amount of bombs dropped.
CL; I was going to say sommat like that I read.
[Other]: Did you ever meet any of the aircrew off the airfield?
CL: No, that one, only that one what cleared us off like, that one bloke you know when we told him about the fellers, hop it you don’t realise do you, you know. I mean you don’t sort of take it to, do you, you know.
MC: Cause at that age you wouldn’t have got in to any of the pubs anyway, to meet them.
CL: The huts, I don’t know if you knew where they was, where the non-commisioned officers was. Sergeant pilots and navigators, do you know where they was?
MC: No.
CL: You know, do you know when you go where, now then, it’s where, did you know where the old guardroom was? Opposite that lane, where you used to go down that path, well on the right hand side going that way, now, you know, to Lincoln, that was the huts there, and there was sergeant navigators and non-commissioned officers. Officers was farther up on the right cause you could see ‘em through the window playing snooker and that like, you know until the sergeant moved us off like. Cause he was, well the guardroom was there you see, and there’s always somebody on that. But we used to go in there because sometimes they was kicking a ball about, you know, when they wan’t flying and have a bit of a do with them like. I can remember, all them years ago, but I can remember once when I was there, playing, having a kick, they went on the speaker horn aircrew report to the whatever it is, you know, briefing room like, and of course they all cleared off then what was fliers like, you know, and I see them go out that night like you see, you know. All them years ago though, don’t it seem queer. Sometimes I forget things and yet I can remember that. Queer innit? You know.
MC: Well, I think that’s, that’s pretty good, thanks, Colin, that was a great interview and thank you very much for talking to me.
CL: Ah I don’t, yeah well, there was, bloke landed the Lancaster, he must have come back for some reason with his load on. In the morning it was stood in the field, you know where that restaurant is now, it was a field then of course, just a little dyke and a fence, and he’d come back with his load, and we didn’t know like, but he’d gone through the bloody crash gates, and over the road and through the fence and finished up, in, it was ploughed up a bit there at that time, that field and then the ploughing you know, and that’s where it was, course lads you see off they went, when we see it, they nearly got there, and of course there’s an RAF chap on guard, you know, and said, we said sommat, go on hop it lads he said, the bugger’s still loaded up well he was stood there so if it had gone up he would have gone up and all, that was his job wan’t it like, he cleared us off like, you know. Then another time we happened to be down there looking over the crash gate and the one came in from Lincoln way, whether it was doing an air test or sommat I don’t know, anyway, he came in to land and he touched down and he hadn’t been down two three minutes and bloody great bang and his tyre busted and it chucked him, I’m not kidding you, it went like that it did, he couldn’t hold it I think, fair bit of speed on that, he’d only just touched down, and of course he went on the grass so far and then stopped. The tyre was busted like. It was maybe doing air test cause they did they, they used to take off and go round and land in again didn’t they, you know. Oh aye, did you know about them bombs, stick of bombs what dropped down there. Well just before you get to the wood where that house, old house was, they dropped three I think, one night, Jerries. One landed in the field on the left hand side as you’re going down there, another one dropped half way on the road, blew half the road up and half the dyke, and the other one went over the wood, and a land mine it was, and they dropped and just over the wood like, and course it went up, and the landmine, oh hell of a, hell of a big hole and a lot of clay, you know, a lot of clay in the land there.
[Other]: Was that on [unclear]
CL: Aye, them first two was, yeah, cause I can remember ‘em filling that one up, it took half the road up.
MC: That was the crossroads.
CL: Yeah. No, ordinary road like, just before you get to where the bomb dump was, furthest away, end of that wood there, then you get a bit of a field don’t you, and it blew half the road up and half the dyke. Well they filled it up with all sorts: bricks and tins and you know what have you. But the other one in the field it, I don’t know what they did with that, but the other was a land mine and it went over the wood towards the Whisby side, do you get me, over the top and it was solid clay, well it put this place in here, in the war, you know, well it was dropped at night, wouldn’t it dop, you reckon they would be aiming for the [unclear] bomb dump? Well they wasn’t far off it, was they?
[Other]: Bomb dump.
CL: Wasn’t far off it was they. Bloody hell.
[Other]: They’d have had the airfield mapped out.
CL: Yeah. I mean, but, if it had gone, well the bomb dump well I don’t know would have blown the whole lot up wouldn’t it? Ain’t there some places now in the wood?
[Other]: Yeah.
CL: You know as you go down the bypass. What are they? Toilets, or just sheds?
MC: There’s bits of the bomb dump still there.
CL: Oh is there?
MC: Yeah, RAF Sculthorpe, yeah, bits of the bomb dump still there.
[Other]: Some air raid shelters, flash pens, all the roads, the concrete roads still there.
CL: Oh I could tell you another thing, I don’t know if you’re interested. When, when we was at Goslar I got one leave, well, some of them had two, I only had one, anyway we used to catch the train from Goslar to Hanover, then get the main line one from Brunswick to Hook of Holland, you know, leave train, and we was going towards Bielefeld they called it, or Biedefield one of the two.
MC: Bielefeld.
CL: The army prison was there, British Army, you know, anyway [chuckle] we was going in to there from Goslar and the other line was coming from the Ruhr, you know the valley as they called it, and there’s a big viaduct there, you’d have heard about it dozens of times, they bombed it and they couldn’t hit it, could they, well the holes right on the, the holes was there if you get me, round it, but they’d all grassed over, but you could see where they’d hit it, they hit it with a Tallboy didn’t they?
MC: That’s the Bielefeld Viaduct, yes.
CL: Yeah. It made quite a - have you seen it, did you see it?
MC: I’ve seen pictures of it.
CL: Well it made quite a big hole in it, one of Barnes Wallis’ little Tallboys, you know, like they dropped on that ship, whatever it was.
[Other]: Tirpitz.
CL: Yeah. But as I say, all the bomb holes was round, you could tell where the bombs had dropped like, you know, they was grassed over like, you know. Cause it used to come from the Ruhr valley I think, like Essen and all that, cause we went all through them, you see on the train, Essen, it was flattened, that Krupps factory, but do you know, I’m not lying, there was a hell [emphasis] of a chimney stack stuck up, and all round it was flat, rubble, and it was still stood up, aye, at that time, yeah. Well they’d take it down, no doubt because it’d be dangerous wan’t it but, really marvellous wan’t it, you know, all flat round it, massive factory all run up the side of the railway, you know, hell of a factory, aye. But Berlin though, I mean, I know they hammered it, but, I told you about them cemeteries, didn’t I, lot of RAF blokes there, cause we used to from Spandau on the tram, down from Spandau to the main part of Berlin to the picture house and the NAAFI, and there was a sort of a subway of a bit and of course there was a cemetery there, it was war graves commission then like, but got stones up, but it said RAF on some of them, well all of them, but there was names to some, but some had just got RAF Unknown you know, so they would find them. But like I told you, the Germans looked after it, when we was there, they had our uniforms these chaps what was, British Army uniforms, but they’d got GSO on here stands for sommat, what it was I don’t know, they were dyed black if you get me, instead of our colour, they’d dyed ‘em all, but they used to work for the army I think, you know cause when I was at Goslar they used to drive cars about and that for us, you know cause we had to walk, when we wanted to go into town, we had to walk about two miles from Goslar, from where we were like, and they used to stop pick you up like, they wan’t, you know didn’t seem to hold it against you, mind you they were getting money wan’t they, working you know, pick us up and take us in to town like, or if you was coming back take you back to camp like. I’ll tell you, you’ll maybe not be interested but we used to go on route marches and we went to Belsen, we used to go through Belsen you know, that was a village like, before you got there, rough old roads they was, rough as hell they were, like bloody great stones in the muck, you know, when you got off the good road, like. And there was a place there where scrap, where, scrap, must have been because they was engines, railway engines they’d holes in them all over, but there were dozens and dozens on this here line you know, waiting to be took and broke up I think. Well they were shot up like, bloody great holes in the side of the boilers and all sorts like, aye, they’d hammered it a bit like, didn’t them Typhoons used to go for ‘em, aye, shoved a rocket in ‘em see.
MC: Did a lot of damage.
CL: Oh I don’t know, you’d maybe not want to know, but I told you I think, it was operational for a start, wasn’t it, Wigsley cause took the Hampdens from here, they went to Wigsley, but before they finished it - we lived at that Spalford at that time you see, was only just up the road - there was the, can you remember them, Airspeed Oxfords, trainers they was. Well before they done the airfield they was training blokes you know, cause they’d done the runway and they didn’t take much runway, so they’d land in, and then cut off and come back and keep going round and round, do you get me, and that like, and there was a big drain at yon end, Spalford end, big dyke, you know, massive, and when the Hampdens went away it went to one of the training units off of operations, on to training, you know, and there was Lancs there, well one overshot the dyke, they went off the runway and plonked on this here big dyke, you know, course off we went, two three of us, there’s more of us there like, before we got there, you could smell, nobody there there wan’t like, the door was off, and it smelt of petrol. The first thing you could see when the door of this Lancaster, you know where they got in, that time, that one, I don’t know if later time, was the toilet, they had one didn’t they, but it was dead like you know, opposite the door they jumped out, it was theer, but you know, it stunk of petrol like, and there’s nobody about, so they’d overshot I think and then gone back to whatever and then afore that one, the, an Hampden, he overshot there as well and we did get in that. Well, there’s nobody about! The bloody hood was back, it slid back, didn’t it, you know, and the seat, I’m not kidding you, it was like the old fashioned bus seat, double, you know, and then there was a big steps down to the front wan’t there, you know, didn’t open up to ‘em much like, then the thin body, wan’t there. I don’t think there was a gunner at the back was there, not on there.
[Other]: There was yeah, upper and lower.
CL: Ah! Under neath, ah, they was like under. And you know we did get a look in that, a real good look like and then we cleared off like.
MC: Didn’t get any souvenirs then?
CL: No way, never thought of that, they smelt of petrol, or they would do wouldn’t they. We cleared off and got away with it. But there was a mill, when they built the runway facing over there, like that one came across here didn’t it, that one at Wigsley, there was an old mill at Spalford as you went in, you know the old fashioned mill and it was smack in line with the runway. Well you know when they thought it out, you’d have thought they’d have thought of that, wouldn’t you? Anyway I think the pilots complained, I don’t know and they took it down in the end, cause when they went OTU is it, training in unit, there was Lancasters there and all sorts going round, you know aye, and, aye bit of history to it in’t there.
MC: There is.
CL: Well I hope I’ve helped you a bit anyway.
MC: You used to go, get on the train and go down to the French NAAFI club.
CL: Yeah.
MC: That was when you was in Berlin.
CL: Yes, cause I had my birthday, twenty first birthday down there, there was a few of us went. We used to go on the rail car, you know, like the train, but you know the, like underground, but it wan’t, you didn’t go under it, and we used to go down on that from where we was about there and then get back on at night. And we was like [unclear] when we come out. We got on the station like and I said we want to go yon side, we want to be otherwise we shall be in the Russian Zone we go the other. Oh no, no, you know who they are don’t you, oh I said all right and we went to other side, no we stopped where we was, that’s it, and the train came in and we was going to get on and credit to him, to him, this Jerry, he was a guard or sommat like, oh no not that way! Ruski, Ruski, you know. [Laughter] We got out of there, I’ve been telling you now, we had to cross over, we wanted other side you see, to get back and that. But credit due to ‘im. Well one or two of them did go over into the Russian Sector, by mistake, and they kept them about three weeks, you see, oh aye, didn’t do nowt to ‘em, they just locked ‘em up I think. Well I said to ‘em, I said, I bloody told you we didn’t want to be there.
[Other]: Splendid person. Good days of twenty one [unclear].
CL: Twenty one, fancy having it there, where Adolf used to be. Aye, I don’t I can tell you much else mate.
MC: Thanks once again for that Colin, that’s great, thank very much for your time.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Colin Lloyd
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Mike Connock
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-23
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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ALloydC180823
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Pending review
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01:03:17 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Berlin
Description
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Colin Lloyd was born in 1933 in Torksey, Lincolnshire. He recalls hearing Mr. Chamberlain’s broadcast on Sunday 3rd September 1939. His father got a job in 1942 at the gravel pits near Whisby and they moved to that area. Colin describes being close to RAF Skellingthorpe and watching aircraft taking off and landing. On one occasion the airfield was bombed by two Ju 88’s. He also recalls when an aircraft failed to remain airborne after taking off, crashed back down, and exploded. As a young boy, he often went exploring around the edge of the airfield with his friends. They also saw bombers flying overhead towards Europe on operations.
After the war, he got a job at the gravel pits as a crane driver. He completed part of his National Service in Berlin during 1954 and was based in the Spandau Jail where Rudolf Hess and Albert Speer were held. He describes the damage to Berlin caused by the Russians and allied bombing. Colin also recalls visits he made to Belsen, the Bielefeld viaduct, and the Berlin Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery.
Contributor
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Nick Cornwell-Smith
Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1944
1953
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
Ju 88
Lancaster
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
RAF Sculthorpe
RAF Wigsley
Tallboy
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/514/11307/BGoodmanLSGoodmanLSv1.1.pdf
95e2e091735c5cb46cad20f313332cb3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Goodman, Benny
Lawrence Seymour Goodman
L S Goodman
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodman, LS
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2016-04-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Transcription
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BY BENNY GOODMAN
It was September 1939. A few of us were sitting around the wireless waiting for the Prime Minister to make an announcement. He did so and told us we were now at war with Germany. I was a student, in digs, and a long way from my home in London. I decided to telephone my parents and talk things over with my father. My first instinct was to leave my studies – not a hardship really! – go home and join up. Eventually, my father agreed, much to my mother’s consternation. I discovered later. He had served four years in the 1st World War. There was no doubt in my mind I was going to join up. However, I did not want to join the navy or the army and it was only then I realised I wanted to become a pilot.
I was almost nineteen and had no idea what was entailed, but with the ignorance and cheek of youth I presented myself at the RAF recruiting office and told the officer who interviewed me what I wanted to do. He didn’t say a word, finished filling in the form he had in front of him and told me I would be hearing about my application very soon. Not long afterwards I went for a general medical and when I passed this I was sent to an RAF medical for a more involved air crew medical. Everything went well except when it came to the eye test. My eyesight had never been top class so I went to the back of the queue and learnt the two or three lines each candidate was being asked to read. I passed! After attestation, I went home to await call up. It came a few weeks later and I reported to RAF Cardington, where I was issued with a uniform and all the accoutrements for an AC 2. This is it, I thought. I shall be a pilot in a couple of weeks and will save the world!
Things didn’t quite turn out like that. After about 10 days at Cardington, we were told to pack our kitbags and were marched off to the local railway station. Rumours were rife! And if you listened to everyone, your posting was to anywhere in the world. In fact, we went to RAF Bridgenorth for six weeks square bashing and all that went with it. ‘Bull’ was the order of the day – the camp had four parade grounds) Then I and another chap were posted to RAF Abingdon. When we got there nobody had any idea we were coming and so the Orderly Room Sergeant asked us our trade. We both said ‘U.T. Pilot’ and consequently we were sent the aircrew quarters, which were in fact the married quarters on the station. Abingdon was a straight through course for Whitleys and so, with much justification, we thought we would be on the next course.
However, there was a war on! It was decided that the Whitley course running at the time would be the last one and again, no one knew what to do with us. The next day we were moved from our relatively comfortable billet to a remote part of the airfield. There was a Nissen hut with six beds, no sheets, no pillowcases and a Fairey Battle packing case as a so-called recreation room. The latrines were self-dug, but permanent. We were to be ground gunners!
It was explained to us that this was a temporary move but as such we had to learn, amongst other things, how to strip and re-assemble the C.O.W. gun and the water-cooled Lewis gun. Duties were 4 hours on / 2 hours off in the gun pit. We patrolled the airfield at night and challenged anyone on it for the password of the day. You can imagine the sort of answers we got from aircraft technicians with their bags of tools in the pitch black trying to find the Whitley they were to work on. At dawn every morning we had to march around the perimeter track with our gas masks on in case of a German paratroop invasion from the air.
Our food was brought out to us in hay boxes and so was never very warm! We used to try and sneak in once a week or so to the airmen’s quarters to see if we could get a bath, but if we were caught the airmen billeted there showed no mercy! In our off-duty time, we were sent to the coal dump to load coal bags and to carry out various other domestic duties on the camp. One of these included cleaning out the grate in the Officers’ mess before they came down for breakfast. On many occasions I did this and always had to finish by black-leading the grate and all the surrounds. Some years later I went back to Abingdon as the Adjutant of the Overseas
[page break]
2
Ferry Unit. When I went into the mess, I looked at the grate and the few officers sitting around it in armchairs and thought to myself: “If only you chaps knew how many times I cleaned this thing!”
A posting came through eventually to start pilot training and I was sent to Stratford-upon-Avon, which was a Reception Centre. As I walked into the Orderly Room to report my arrival, a voice shouted “Airman, you’re on a charge”. I looked around and saw no one else -I had the horrible feeling that I was already in trouble, and this was the case. Having spent some months as a ground gunner and living in my uniform it was, to say the least, scruffy, as was the cap. Not very politely I was told I was a disgrace to the service because of the state of my uniform. All the other chaps, of course, were wearing brand new uniforms and I stood out like a sore thumb. I tried to point this out to the Sergeant but he wasn’t interested. Next morning, I appeared before the O.C. unit who was sympathetic but clearly felt he had to back up his Orderly Room Sergeant. Seven days jankers was my reward.
A posting duly came along to Initial Training Wing (I.T.W.) and there we did six weeks of ground school prior to E.F.T.S. Just about everyone passed and I was sent to 17 E.F.T.S. Peterborough for ab initio training on Tiger Moths. The course was about 48-50 hours and to the horror of another chap and myself, we were posted to RAF Woodley for an instructors course. Both of us could just about manage to fly the Tiger Moth and so to be told we were going to be instructors frightened us considerably. Following this, after a couple of weeks at Clyffe Pypard a holding unit, and a spell at a Manchester park, awaiting posting, we were sent to Canada to do a S.F.T.S. on Ansons. Boy! This was living. A twin engine aircraft with retractable undercarriage, even though we had to wind it up! The course included night flying, the first time I had experienced this, and I can truly say that on my so-called first circuit I varied between 600 ft and 1,500 ft AGL and lost site of the airfield completely. I hadn’t got a clue. To my surprise, my instructor didn’t seem at all phased and by the end of the detail I had at least got the circuit and the heights more or less sorted out. What a brave man he was! After another night sortie, I was passed fit to do a solo circuit and I truly believed I was just about to die! However, all went well and I was then sent to Kingston, Ontario, to – believe it or not – instructing on Harvards. This aircraft is still in use to this day.
The thought of flying this monster, let alone instructing on it, made me feel quite sick. Kingston Ontario was an RAF station dedicated to the training of Fleet Air Arm pilots “is everybody mad?” I thought. The other instructors, all of whom had done an operational tour (and one was Fleet Air Arm) readily accepted me – the sprog in every way. The Flight Commander took me up and put me through my paces on the Harvard and pronounced me fit to start instruction. However, he showed me and tested me one lesson at a time, so that I could take up an acting leading naval airman and show him the particular procedure. Nobody else had a clue how inexperienced I was, except the other instructors in the flight who thought it was a great joke. So, I started with one lesson at a time and over a few weeks built up to the whole syllabus. I have to say the Harvard was a wonderful and responsive aircraft to fly and, despite the tales of woe and misery about ground looping, I never saw one instance of it … and that includes me!
By this time I was a Pilot Officer and because there was no room in the Mess I had digs in the town and even bought myself a Chevrolet with a dicky seat. My Canadian driving test consisted of reversing the car about 2 feet, and being told to ‘stop and get out, come into the office’ … and I was presented with my Canadian driving licence. In a short time, I had come from cleaning the grate in the Officers Mess as an AC 2 to a Pilot Officer Instructor, with a car and living in digs! Was I dreaming?
All good things come to an end and I was posted back to the U.K. to prepare to go on ops. We set sail on the Awatea from Halifax, Nova Scotia, and of course nothing ever goes well for long. Twenty-four hours later in the Atlantic, we were torpedoed. Fortunately for us, a US Navy destroyer intercepted the torpedo and took most (90%) of the subsequent explosion and sank, leaving us damaged. We had no rudder and there were several other things wrong with the ship; we went round in circles for some time. Rough repairs were made and we went back to Halifax. We kicked our heels there for a while and then were put on a train journey which lasted for several days, to New York. There we transferred immediately to the Queen Mary. There were huge numbers of American troops and O.C. Troops was an American Officer. He called all the officers together before sailing to tell us that, if we were torpedoed
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We must remember that the officers were last to leave the ship. Bearing in mind our recent experience, this didn’t exactly cheer us up. We did arrive safely in the U.K. and I found myself flying Martinets for a time, carrying out simulated air attacks on Wimpeys and for their air gunners to cine-gun their replies.
At last a posting came through to an O.T.U. at Silverstone. By this time I had already met Tony Hayward, who wore an Observers brevet, and we became good friends. We went to the O.T.U. together and there we picked up our full crew. Crews selected each other in what seemed a very haphazard manner, by talking to those we thought would be suitable, but I can’t remember ever meeting any crew member who was subsequently dissatisfied and wanted to leave his original crew. In the end, everyone was crewed up.
From Silverstone we went to the Heavy Bomber Conversion Unit at Swinderby flying Stirlings, and then to the Lancaster finishing school at Syerston. At the end of my course, the Flight Commander sent for me and my crew said: “What the hell have you done, Benny?” I protested my innocence but everybody laughed. When I entered the Flight Commander’s office I felt sure I had done something terribly wrong because there, facing me, were the Flight Commander, O.C. Flying and two or three other officers. My heart sank into my boots and the only thing I could think of was a ‘court martial’. I felt slightly cheered when the Flight Commander seemed quite friendly as he spoke to me and one or two of the other officers questioned me about my flying and the practise bombing results that we had obtained. I felt further heartened and, knowing the results, couldn’t believe that was what I was being called in about. After a couple more questions, one of the officers said to me: “How would you like to join 617 Squadron?” I truly didn’t believe that I had heard correctly and said: “Excuse me, sir. Did you say 617 Squadron?” He answered: “Yes”. I felt a heavy weight suddenly had been lifted from my shoulders and said that I and my crew would be delighted to do so.’ At that time the only other crew which had been invited to join the squadron had come and had come directly from training was headed by Tony Iveson, and he had been a Battle of Britain pilot. He had been on the Lancaster course immediately before me.
I was told that we had been selected for 617 and to report for duty within 48 hours. When I got back to the crew and told them the news, at first they didn’t believe me. Eventually, I convinced them and we all packed up and got transport to Woodhall Spa.
On arrival and after checking in at the Mess and going through the usual procedures, I reported to the Squadron Adjutant. I waited a few minutes and was ushered into Wing Commander Tait’s office, who was O.C 617 Squadron. We had a chat, or more accurately – he spoke to me and allocated me to a flight. I reported to the Flight Commander Jonny Cockshott. He welcomed me and told me that the crew would have to go on a short training course devised by the squadron and, importantly, to get used to the S.A.B.S. bombsight and to obtain bombing results within the limits prescribed by 617 Squadron. We did this and found ourselves accepted as fully operational on the squadron.
My first trip was with Flight Lieutenant Bob Knights … without my crew but with his. I sat in the dicky seat where the Flight Engineer usually sat. I couldn’t have been luckier in the choice of captain I was to fly with. Not only was Bob an extremely nice chap but he was most helpful as well. To give you an idea of his value, he was a Flight Lieutenant with a D.S.O. and I think you know there aren’t many of those to the pound.
I did a full tour of thirty trips with the Squadron. The first trip as a crew was to Brest and, of course, being a sprog crew things had to happen, didn’t they? Over the sea, I suddenly found the cockpit full of smoke and the wireless operator telling me his radios were on fire. He and the navigator were trying to make sure the fire didn’t spread. Just the sort of confidence booster you need on your first sortie on a new squadron! I opened the D.V. panel and fortunately the combined efforts of the wireless operator and navigator dealt with the fire … we carried on. One thing was certain: none of us could have faced a return to the squadron without completing the trip saying: “We couldn’t do it. We had a fire on board.” How’s that for luck?
Some of the trips we did were quite well known. There was the Tirpitz trip (13 1/4 hours) and a 9 hour 25 minute night trip to Politz-Stettin. That was the first time I could truthfully say that, at 18,000 ft with
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oxygen masks on, I can remember smelling cordite from the flak that was thrown at us. That may sound like a line shoot, but it certainly wasn’t at the time. A further notable op was against the Arnsberg viaduct, when we were selected to drop the 22,000 lb Grand Slam on the viaduct.
We received Grand Slam in March 1945. To carry this a number of modifications were made to the Lancaster – a Lincoln undercarriage was fitted to allow for the increase in weight; mid-upper and front turret were removed, along with the wireless operator’s equipment and the W/Op himself. Other armour plate was taken out and the ammunition load reduced, all to save weight. The bomb doors were removed and replaced by fairings and a chain link strop with electro-mechanical release was fitted to hold Grand Slam in place.
As I recall it I was number three to release a Grand Slam, Jock Calder was the first, and Johnny Cockshott the second. This was in March – yes we are still in March, and Arnsberg Viaduct was the target. On release I remember the aircraft went up vertically about 100 – 200 feet. My flight engineer recalls hearing a loud bang at the same time, as the release slip parted.
In all 617 dropped 41 Grand Slams before the end of the war in Europe. I like to think Grand Slam punched its weight. We were the only squadron to have this bomb.
Another op that had high squitter value was against Hamburg. We had the misfortune to have a hang-up and the bomb dropped a few seconds late, which meant that it didn’t fall on the target but into the residential area beyond the target. We didn’t feel good about this, but there was nothing we could do. We set course for home. About fifteen minutes later my flight engineer nudged me and nodded his head toward what I thought was the instrument panel. I looked but could see nothing wrong, so went on flying. He nudged me even harder and moved his head rather more urgently towards the starboard side. I looked out and to my horror saw the latest German twin engine jet fighter, a Messerschmitt Me262, in formation with us on our starboard wing. I thought I must be dreaming but I knew very well I wasn’t, and thought: “This is it.” It seemed to me that if I tried a 5 Group corkscrew we wouldn’t have a chance against the German aircraft. We had no mid-upper turret and clearly the rear gunner was completely unable to train his guns on him. So, there we were at the mercy of the Luftwaffe. The flight engineer and I looked at each other again and then I looked at the German pilot, but there was no friendly wave from him – so much for fellowship of the air! Suddenly the Me262 disappeared as quickly as it had appeared and I wondered if we had all been smoking opium the night before! It was only some years later when I was talking to Air Commodore John Langston, who at the time was a Flying Officer navigator, that what appeared to be the same aircraft had attacked and shot at John’s aircraft. The German pilot must have just left training school because, although he clearly used all his ammo on John’s aircraft, he hadn’t shot him down. I thought later how fortunate we both were.
Three more incidents out of a number of lucky escapes makes one ask the question. Did Lady Luck really play a part?
On one raid during the bombing run the nose section of the fuselage was hit. Everyone seemed okay, but after landing back at base the bomb aimer discovered that both heels of his flying boots were pitted with shrapnel. An inch or two either way?
On another raid the wireless operator was tuning his radio and leaned a little closer to the set. As he did so, a large projectile or piece of flak entered one side of the fuselage and exited the other. After we landed, the wireless operator sat normally in his seat and we measured the two holes and the position of his head. If he had been sitting in this position at the time of the attack, the projectile/flak would have pierced one side of his head and exited the other. An inch or two either way?
There were three Tirpitz sorties. The first trip involved a direct flight from the U.K. to Yagodnik, Russia, land there, refuel and stay the night. From thereon the next day, the first Tirpitz attack was attempted. This was a hazardous plan as it included flying over Europe both ways and in the end the attack was not successful. However, we unfortunately lost one aircraft.
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For the second and third Tirpitz trips, amongst the modifications, two large fuel tanks were fitted inside the fuselage. Health and safety, eat your heart out! The flight engineers had to master the new fuel system very quickly, and indeed they did. Both these trips were made from an advanced base at Lossiemouth. On both occasions the squadron flew up to Lossiemouth with Tallboys already on board, refuelled and attended final briefing. On the second trip, at midnight, we lined up around the perimeter track, taking off in turn at a green signal from the control tower. The weather was unkind – low cloud and rain – just the job for a night low level trip across the sea! Our turn was approaching and I was having a last look around the cockpit when the flight engineer poked me in the ribs, pointing at the canopy. I looked up and saw a massive pair of main undercarriage wheels heading straight for us. There was nothing I could do as there were aircraft either side of me. We both sat there, like rabbits caught in the headlights, and waited for the inevitable. At the last moment, the wheels cleared our canopy and all was normal again. Just the sort of experience you need before take-off on a foul night!
Later we discovered the errant aircraft was flown by Tony Iveson. He had suffered engine surge on the point of leaving the ground. By a masterful piece of crew co-operation and training he and his flight engineer finally kept the aircraft straight and it just cleared the top of our canopy. But we were all young and I suppose took it in our stride. Now, I’d have the vapours. Lady Luck again.
Due to cloud and an efficient smokescreen, it was not possible to bomb the Tirpitz with any accuracy and we returned to Lossiemouth. However, on the third trip – a replica of the second – 617 Squadron finally sank the Tirpitz.
My last trip was to Berchtesgaden, the Eagle’s Nest, and I understand we were followed by Main Force. We, 617, certainly made a mess of the Waffen SS barracks. This was my last trip with the squadron although we were already made aware of a possible raid, I believe to Denmark. However, a truce was declared before this. After the war, I went into Transport Command but everything seemed so tame after 617 Squadron.
Finally, but certainly not least, I pay tribute to the ground crews. Working out in all weathers, often in wind snow and rain-swept dispersals they were always there to ensure the serviceability of our aircraft. Despite working long hours, they were always there to see us depart, and waited in uncertainty, eager to witness our return… …and woe betide us if we damaged [underlined]their [/underlined] aircraft! For 365 days and nights they made it possible for us to do our job. All of us who flew knew their worth, but why were they never publicly recognised? We would have been wingless wonders without them.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Service History of Benny Goodman
Description
An account of the resource
Begins with his decision to cease his studies and join the Royal Air Force. Covers recruitment activities and life during initial training including employment as ground gunner while waiting for flying training. Describes basic training on Tiger Moth at 17 E.F.T.S. followed by Anson and Harvard in Canada. Relates being torpedoed on return voyage home and subsequent return to Halifax, train to New York and return to United Kingdom on the Queen Mary. Tells of flying Martinet as targets for air gunners course, crewing up at O.T.U and subsequent training on Stirling at Heavy Bomber Conversion Unit and eventually Lancaster finishing school. Describes selection to go to 617 Squadron and his arrival there. Mentions that he did 30 operations with the squadron and describes some in detail including first sortie to Brest as well as against Tirpitz, one of which involved landing in Russia. Mentions Grand Slam operations as well as one to Hamburg and another where they were formated on by an Me 262. States that his last trip was to the Eagles Nest at Berchtesgaden.
Creator
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B Goodman
Format
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Seven page printed document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
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BGoodmanLSGoodmanLSv1
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Shropshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Peterborough
England--Berkshire
England--Woodley (Wokingham)
Canada
Ontario--Kingston
Nova Scotia--Halifax
United States
New York (State)--New York
Germany
Germany--Hamburg
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
France--Brest
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)--Arkhangelʹskai︠a︡ oblastʹ
France
New York (State)
Ontario
Nova Scotia
Russia (Federation)
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Ashley Jacobs
David Bloomfield
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
617 Squadron
Anson
bombing
crewing up
Flying Training School
fuelling
Grand Slam
ground crew
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Martinet
Me 262
military discipline
military living conditions
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Cardington
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Silverstone
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
sanitation
Stirling
Tallboy
Tiger Moth
Tirpitz
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1026/11398/AMcVicarK151222.1.mp3
8dbe392451014b9a5358deb7dce3dd85
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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McVicar, Kenneth George
K G McVicar
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken McVicar (1810515 Royal Air Force). He served as a 'spare bod' air gunner with 619 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-12-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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McVicar, KG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: Ok. So my name’s Pam Locker and I’m in the home of Mr Kenneth George McVicar and the date is the 22nd of December 2015.
KM: Yes.
PL: And I’d just like to start, Ken, by saying an enormous thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command Trust for talking to us.
KM: Right.
PL: So we’ll start our interview. So I guess the first question would be to just ask you how you became involved in the first place.
KM: Right. Well, up to — I was a young man at, living in my home in Llanelli, South Wales and I decided I’d join the RAF. And unfortunately for me, for things that went afterwards they took a long time to contact me and I joined the RAF in, I forget now when it was. Anyway, I joined up and was sent to ACRC, which is the Bomber Command course at St John’s Wood, London and I stayed there for about a month and eventually I was posted down to Neath in Wales, which was only twenty miles away from my home. Anyway, I stayed at that, I did the ACRC course of six months and then I got posted again. And I was posted to RAF Sealand where I did some flying on a Tiger Moth for a fortnight but the weather was not good and I didn’t solo or anything like that. I went on to Heaton Park, Manchester where I was supposed to be going abroad with the, to continue the flying experience you see. But they had too many gunners and too many pilots and not enough gunners. So I decided I’d be a gunner even though it wasn’t my intention to be a gunner, I was. And I left that school and went up to Dalcross near, well what is, the airport for up that way, you know, in Scotland. And six weeks later I was a fully qualified gunner. So then I —
PL: So what was your training like?
KM: The training. Well shooting from the back of an Anson, sat in the mid-upper turret and two guns. Firing at a drogue which was drawn by another plane, well. I shot away and eventually I shot the wire which connected the drogue.
PL: So there was another plane.
KM: Yeah.
PL: Flying with wires coming down.
KM: Yeah.
PL: Holding on to a door.
KM: A drogue. A drogue.
PL: A drogue.
KM: Yes.
PL: Right. And you - and that was your target?
KM: That was my target, yes. I shot at this and eventually I shot the wire which was pulling it, see, and the drogue flew off and not seen again. I finally passed out as a sergeant. I was posted to Barford St John in, near Banbury and commenced training with Wellingtons when I met my first crew. And that was the pilot — Flying Officer Adams. And the navigator, Flying Officer Eddie Preedy. Staff Sergeant Gunner was from Canada and he was a bomb aimer. Sergeant Teddy Knox was the wireless operator. And Sergeant Jock Milne — the mid-upper gunner. I first met my first wife and got married in 1945. I continued my training and first sent to Swinderby to train on Stirlings and Lancasters until 26th of March 1945. Then I went to Woodhall Spa, you see, and that’s when I joined 617 Squadron as rear gunner. But as they had plenty of spare gunners there and we were flung off the squadron and went to 619 Squadron. Well the war was coming to an end, I was posted to Anglesey where I was classified, re-classified as a sergeant and ground crew, and as I was a clerk in civvy life it wasn’t long before I became a clerk in the RAF. I returned - while in India I was sent to Yelahanka, an aerodrome near Bangalore and remained there until I was discharged on the 17th of the 3rd 1947. I returned home to Wales and lived there with my parents where I applied to join the Metropolitan Police — which I did. And on the 17th of the 2nd my warrant number was 130491, issued and I went to Hendon to train as a police officer. My first posting was at Stoke Newington and I stayed there for a while until I went to Edgware where I qualified as a driver until I was promoted to sergeant having passed the examination, stationed at Paddington Green. The old Paddington Green. Later promoted to station sergeant and posted to Golders Green. And from there I became an inspector and I stayed at Enfield most of the time until I retired after having completed about twenty eight years.
PL: Amazing.
KM: Yeah.
PL: Amazing.
KM: And then of course by that time I’d met Josie and we eventually started living together and got married in, I forget now —
PL: 1980 was it?
KM: 1980.
Other: It wasn’t. It was 1974.
PL: ’74.
KM: ’74. Yeah. So that’s about a brief description of my life, oh aye —
PL: That’s a wonderful start. Can I take you right back.
KM: Aye.
PL: To the beginning.
KM: Yeah.
PL: And was there, what attracted you to the, to the RAF? What did you, did you have history? Did you have family history?
KM: No. I don’t have any family history. It’s just that I wanted to be, join the RAF. I always wanted to join the RAF from way back.
PL: From being a boy.
KM: Yeah, right.
PL: Right. Fantastic. And when you, your first squadron that you were involved with.
KM: Yeah. 617.
PL: 617 Squadron. How did you all, how did you all meet? Were you —
KM: Well we were posted to the 617 and then we had a lot of — I wanted to stay on 617 but they wouldn’t have me because I was a good shot, see, in the air. And that’s when they decided to get rid of me and there we are.
PL: There you are. So what actual active service did you see? Would you like to tell me about some of your experiences actually as an air gunner?
KM: I was an air gunner but I didn’t go on any trips or anything. I just sat in the back.
PL: Right.
KM: And —
PL: When you say sat in the back.
KM: Yeah.
PL: What do you mean by sat in the back?
KM: Sat in the turret.
PL: Right.
KM: Turret swinging to the left. Swinging to the right and shoot up. Of course the big bomb came along and there wasn’t any room for us then.
PL: Right .
KM: And as there more pilots and gunners than they wanted, nobody wanted me. So I went as a spare bod to 619 Squadron and we did there for a while, until the war was finishing then.
PL: So you did all that training.
KM: Yeah.
PL: And then you never had the opportunity to —
KM: To go and fire. Never.
PL: What did you think about that?
KM: Well I was hurt, yeah. Did all that training to be a gunner and then never went up in the air. So there you are.
PL: So what sort of period of time was that in the war? So this coming towards the end of the war?
KM: The war.
PL: Right. Ok. Ok. Ok.
KM: Yeah.
PL: So, your first wife. How did you meet her? Was she in the WAAF?
KM: Well, when I went to Barford St John, I met her. She was one of the girls that, you know, go up to and dance and things like that.
PL: Amazing. So are there any other experiences? I mean I’m very curious to hear what it was like on, you know, being at the airfield. Were you based at the airfield?
KM: Yeah.
PL: When you were doing your — ?
KM: Training.
PL: Right. Yeah. So what was that like for you all?
KM: Well it was alright I suppose. Waiting, the training of course. Jump in a plane and go off flying somewhere. We all had — my logbook. Flying logbook. Here it is. There we are.
PL: Thank you. Wonderful. Gosh. So these are all the times that you —
KM: Flew.
PL: You flew. And so when you, when you actually flew, were you, did you have to be in the gunner’s turret?
KM: Yeah. Turret. Yeah. All the time.
PL: That was always your —
KM: Always my station.
PL: Right.
KM: Yeah. In the turret.
PL: Right.
KM: Oh aye.
PL: And what was it like? Did you, did you feel claustrophobic at all?
KM: No. Not at all. Not at all. I felt at home.
PL: Really.
KM: Really at home.
PL: So you had the whole world at your feet.
KM: Yeah. And a heated suit.
PL: Sorry.
KM: A heated suit.
PL: Oh right.
KM: It was cold, you know, in the back.
PL: Of course.
KM: I was covered me head to toe. It was heated by the plane’s — plane heating system. You know.
PL: So when you went on to the plane did you go in any sort of order? Was there any sort of way in which everybody went in?
KM: Yeah. Up through the bottom. And up, jump up a ladder you know, and then I would step over the elsan, which was situated at the back and climb in, over in to the backseat and there I was master of my own dominion. Yeah.
PL: And did you feel part of the team?
KM: Of course. I was part, part of the team and if it had been when we were attacked I would direct, I would say to the skipper corkscrew left or depending on where he was coming from the left I would go that way and this way and down and up and at the time I would try to shoot him down, you see.
PL: Goodness.
KM: Aye.
PL: So I guess you were the guy they didn’t want to hear from.
KM: Yeah [laughs]
PL: A good trip would be when you were quiet the whole time. Right. Ok. So there were no active ops.
KM: No.
PL: Right. Ok. Ok. So did that apply, then, to your whole crew? You stayed together as a crew did you?.
KM: No.
PL: What happened to the others?
KM: The others stayed on 617.
PL: Right.
KM: And went flying with them as far as I know.
PL: Right. Right.
KM: I lost contact with them.
PL: Right. Right. Right.
KM: And I went on to a spare bod to the other place you see.
PL: Very good.
KM: Aye.
PL: So, so what year did you join? Did you actually join up? Do you remember?
KM: 1944, I’ve got it here. [pause] when I went to Sealand it was [pause] I think it was ’44 I think.
PL: In the RAF.
KM: ‘44. Aye.
PL: ’44. Ok so it must have been very frustrating for you.
KM: It was. Very frustrating. Having trained all that time, you know and then not go to.
PL: So how old were you in 1944?
KM: Oh I was eighteen. Eighteen.
PL: Goodness. So did lots of your friends join up at the same sort of time?
KM: Yes. And they were all coming from Wales and Scotland and all over England, you know to join. Same time.
PL: Is there anything else that you’d like to tell me about your, your experiences in Bomber Command before we move on to anything else.
KM: No. I don’t think so. Nothing happened to me you see. I was lucky as some say. As I say — unlucky.
PL: Well it’s just as important part of the story.
KM: Yeah.
PL: As everybody else’s part.
KM: Aye.
PL: It wouldn’t be a complete story.
KM: Aye.
PL: Without your contribution.
KM: Aye.
PL: So I guess one of the other things I’d like to ask you is how you felt about Bomber Command and how they were treated historically.
KM: Well Bomber Command were always second best to the first of the few. The fighters. You know, when they got their reward it was well and truly deserved of course and, but we should have had a reward then for our contribution.
PL: So how do you feel about the recognition that has come now?
KM: Now it’s alright. Now it’s alright of course. They’ve put that right. Everybody agrees now the role that the bomber boys had has come true.
PL: Fantastic. Thank you very much indeed Ken for talking to me today.
KM: Oh it was nothing.
[recording paused]
PL: Ok. So we’ve resumed recording because I just wanted to ask you Ken about what happened when the big bomb came. You talked about the big bomb. What was that and what were the implications for you?
KM: Well it was the Tallboy bomb. It was the biggest bomb we ever had and that’s why it was necessary to take out the one turret. To minimise the weight you see and allow the bomb to be carried. So it was only from that day that they needed one gunner instead of two see.
PL: And so who made that decision? And did that vary between crews or was it just a blanket decision from on high?
KM: Blanket decision.
PL: Ok. Thank you.
KM: Thank you.
PL: We’ll pause.
[recording paused]
PL: So we’re back on now. We were just having a conversation, Ken, about the fact that everybody volunteered for the RAF.
KM: Yes. Yes.
PL: I was just interested to know how you felt as such a young man joining up.
KM: Well it was great. You know. Get in the RAF. Do a job that was worth doing and it was wonderful.
PL: Did you feel excited by it?
KM: Yes. I was excited.
PL: But did you feel afraid as well?
KM: No. I didn’t feel afraid.
PL: Really.
KM: No.
PL: Very interesting. And did you, I mean as a young man I often think it must have been very interesting being a teenager during that time. Did you sort of feel like you were working towards your time?
KM: Yeah. Working towards my time with the RAF and joining a crew you know. To go and bomb.
PL: That’s very interesting.
KM: Tough for the people underneath who were receiving it of course but that wasn’t my worry.
PL: So do you think people did think about that?
KM: Yes. They did think about it but they couldn’t do anything about it anyway. No.
[recording paused]
PL: Put this back on. So we’re recording again. So you were this young man full of vim and vigour.
KM: Aye.
PL: But you weren’t afraid.
KM: No.
PL: But you knew about the statistics.
KM: Yes. I had a cousin that were training and lost him on training you see. Yeah.
PL: But you still did it. You still went ahead and did it.
KM: Oh yes. You couldn’t go back you see. Well you didn’t think about that. Going back.
PL: Very good. Very good. Thank you.
[recording paused]
PL: So we’ve starting recording again. So we were just talking, Ken, about you know this young man who was there in your own world. Master of all you surveyed.
KM: Yeah.
PL: Waiting and checking the sky.
KM: Yeah.
PL: For, for other planes.
KM: Aye.
PL: And believing that you would be victorious.
KM: Aye.
PL: If there was a problem and the plane was hit in any way, what happened then?
KM: Well I would turn my turret to port, pull the doors open on the back and flip myself out, see. And go down then. I had a clear run.
PL: With your, with your parachute.
KM: Parachute. Aye. And all I had to do was put it to port and flip myself out you know.
PL: So did you do all of that during your training I guess? You had practice runs did you?
KM: Yeah. Yeah. We had practice runs but nobody jumps out of a perfectly good aircraft when its flying alright do they?
PL: So how? So you just literally, you did some, you had the experience of a parachute drop though did you? In your training.
KM: Yeah.
PL: But not from the turret.
KM: From — we done from a static point in the, jumped about, I don’t know, and then it was suspended and then you pull a certain thing and down you came you see.
PL: Goodness gracious. So you didn’t actually go up in an aeroplane.
KM: No. Had to do it.
PL: Goodness me. So, so if there had been an emergency that would have been the first time.
KM: The first time and the last time you would wave bye bye to them, to the crew.
PL: What, that was the deal.
KM: That was the deal.
PL: Is that what everybody used to say? You would have to wave bye bye to the crew.
KM: Aye.
PL: Goodness me. Wonderful. You see all of these things are just taken for granted by you.
KM: Yeah.
PL: But for the people who are listening to this recording they won’t know those sorts of details.
KM: No.
PL: It seems extraordinary in the twenty first century that you would be sent to war.
KM: Yeah.
PL: And never actually jumped out of an aircraft.
KM: No [laughs] It’s quite safe though to jump out, you see.
PL: What do you think about your generation?
KM: I don’t think, well my generation, if it happened again I would go, of course, even though I’m no good now. But it was the thing to do, see. Everybody did it. Everybody thought the same and it was just one of those things.
PL: Wonderful. Thank you very much Ken.
KM: Alright.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Kenneth George McVicar
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pam Locker
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMcVicarKG151222
Format
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00:31:03 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Kenneth George McVicar was born in Llanelli, South Wales and joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18, where he qualified as a Gunner. He Flew in Ansons as mid upper gunner turret, but also on Stirlings and Lancasters. He tells of how he went to serve in 617 Squadron but since they had a surplus of gunners, he was moved to 619 Squadron. He recollects the arrival of the Tallboy bomb and how the adaptation caused a gun turret to be removed. With the war coming to an end, Ken became a clerk in the Royal Air Force before being posted to India. On his return home to Wales, he joined the Metropolitan Police, rising to the rank of sergeant and he retired after about 28 years of service.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Wales
India
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
617 Squadron
619 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Lancaster
Stirling
Tallboy
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1102/11561/ARogersH150409.1.mp3
dbd0ef512560ca7e34fc539235de3d90
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Rogers, Hugh
H Rogers
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Hugh Rogers (Royal Air Force). He was a film cameraman with 463 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-04-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Rogers, H
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Hugh Rogers. Mr. Rogers was one of the film cameramen on board a specially modified Lancaster from 463 Squadron Royal Australian Air Force that filmed the sinking of the Tirpitz on November the 12th 1944. The interview is taking place at [file missing], Bristol on the 9th of April 2015.
HR: I recall two memorable days seventy years ago, the eleventh and the twelfth of November 1944. On the morning of the eleventh I was instructed to report to headquarters at Bomber Command at High Wycombe. That surprised me because people like me didn’t go to the headquarters at Bomber Command and also I’d only recently been posted to the film production unit which I now served. In the event two cameramen reported at headquarters, the first Flight Lieutenant Loftus as a Canadian Airforce and secondly myself Flying Officer Rogers RAF of the film unit. We were briefed standing at a small, very small table in a very large room. We were both members of the number one film production unit RAF at that time. We were told at this briefing that we were to bomb the giant German battleship Tirpitz moored in the Arctic and that we were to join the main force of Lancasters at the RAF base in Lossiemouth, Scotland. We were briefed on the very precise route to be taken to reach the Arctic base of the Tirpitz. It was explained to us that following the bombing, the main force would fly west and return to Scotland. The camera Lancaster, which we should be flying, would fly south and return directly to Waddington. So the film could be transported to London by road, processed and as soon as possible, the pictures distributed. The propaganda value was important to the Allies and it was thought would be devastating to the German population morale. Late on the ninth or the eleventh, our Australian pilot, Flight Lieutenant Buckham completed the first part of the operation, flying Lancaster HD399 to RAF Lossiemouth, which is near Inverness, Scotland. HD399 was a Lancaster of the Australian Squadron 463 manned by an all-Australian crew and [unclear] us two cameramen. The aircraft had been modified for our special requirement, the first turret had, the front turret had the guns removed which were replaced with a mounted IMO 200-foot camera. In the fuselage area the mid upper turret with guns had been removed and the fuselage repaired so that the two areas in the fuselage were then available for the second cameraman. The opened panel at the rear of the bomb bay gave a vertical sighting and the second sight on the door edge to the starboard side of the fuselage, the top half of which opened at the time of filming hence required an electrical heated inner suit, I learned that the temperature at my station was minus nineteen ten Centigrade and confirmed my view that I had drawn the short straw. To sustain our fifteen hour flight we did not have a Tallboy bomb loaded but there was a large red fuel tank fitted in the space above the bomb bay. It contained about eighty tons of fuel which I rested on during the flight, my abiding [unclear] memory of the short time in Lossiemouth was to, was being in a badly-lit barnlike room with Wing Commander Tait giving his last remarks to the nineteen pilots on 617 Squadron. We were all standing in the group around Tait, I was standing at the back, he emphasized the importance of the prescribed course which had been designed to avoid detection by the enemy. Over the North Sea the course was to be at fifteen hundred feet and this was to be maintained until the Norwegian coast was approached. So in the early hours of Sunday the eleventh of November, there was a shattering noise as the engine started up in preparation for the three [unclear] take off. The course was to be across, north-east across the North Sea. Round about seven o’clock in the morning we changed course directly east, when we approached the snow covered mountains of Norway. We had been flying at about eight, fifteen hundred feet across the North Sea but the height was then maintained to cover the mountains and we flew direct west into Sweden. Where we turned north so that we could follow the boundary between Norway and Sweden at an altitude which would not expose us to the German radar. We, once we had crossed the mountains, we then reduced the altitude to a reasonably low level. We then had to fly north all along the route between Norway and Sweden until we reached the assembly point at Lake Tornea Trask east of Narvik, some one hundred miles from Tromso. In those Northern latitudes the daylight comes late and I remember, as it got daylight, climbing over the central spire of the aircraft and going into the cockpit. Now, I was very impressed looking out of the cockpit but even at that early hour I could see the path that we were to take, all the lakes were covered by small, lenticular clouds, these saucer like clouds could have been used by the observer to mark his route north to Narvik, that was another of my abiding memories, when all the aircraft had reached the lake Tait fired vary lights at which point all the aircraft then assembled into a battle station and followed Tait on the route to Tromso. As all the aircraft were assembling into position over the lake, we had all gained height to twelve thousand feet, at this height we were able to cross the mountain into the fjord where the Tirpitz was moored. Now, as we crossed the mountain, we were some twenty miles from the Tirpitz, it was a mere small speck at that distance, and of course it was in reverse, we were small specks to the Tirpitz. Now, we know later that it caused consternation on the Tirpitz, not expecting us they suddenly realised that they should call for help and this they immediately did apparently, so I learned later but there was no response to their call, to the call for help from the Messerschmitts. Soon after we were spotted by the Tirpitz they assembled their gun positions and their enormous guns, fifteen inch guns which fired shells of one ton, took a few seconds to get to elevation but in that time they realised that we were too high for the big guns firing one ton shells could reach us but the shells were fall exploding ahead of us and slightly below us. Now in our film Lancaster they were close enough to cause some vibration and movement to the plane, now we had to hold the camera steady in spite of that movement, I think we achieved this, as we got closer to the Tirpitz the ack-ack, small ack-ack guns started and actually it got presumed, because of the panic on board the ship they were not too accurate. As the operation developed John Loftus, lucky chap, was in the front turret and he was able from the front turret to swing the turret round and track the first Tallboys being delivered, being dropped from the aircraft. I couldn’t see that but I was able then to go from the side position and film the first, first few bombs exploding around the ship. As I was working through that open space over the door, I could feel myself getting colder but I wasn’t distracted from what I was doing but I could see the ship being hit, I could see the steam and the smoke coming up and I could see especially I remember at the time it impressed me, that what had happened to the guns on the island when Tallboy landed on the island on the starboard side of the operation. After the last aircraft had gone, I remember walking up or crawling up to the cockpit and looking out of the cockpit and the pilot had dived to the starboard to the right and he was about five thousand feet at the time he’d finished and we could see all the smoke and steam and then he immediately turned on a course which we left because we were going back to Waddington and the rest of the force had gone west of Scotland, but much to our surprise, as we started our course to Waddington, the rear gunner shouted out to the skipper, that he could see the Tirpitz turning over so we turned, the skipper, the pilot turned the aircraft to the starboard so we could see but the pilot was on the other side, sitting on the other side, he couldn’t see it so in order to see it, he dipped the starboard wing and again lowered his altitude and we could see in the distance that by that time [unclear] the smoke and the steam seemed to have gone or there was a haze over the aircraft and you could see that it was upside down. Now, I can’t remember how quickly it was done but the pilot knew that as a squadron Messerschmitts we didn’t know the Germans had been informed by radar but it was time to get out so from that time on we kept on our course back to Waddington. So after that unforgettable operation we headed south across the seas, Norwegian sea, The North Sea and down to Waddington. After a flight of close on fifteen hours where we were met by General [unclear] who collected the film as soon as possible but he was taking it to London to be processed and that was on the Prime Minister, I believe on the Prime Minister’s instruction to get the film out developed as soon as possible for propaganda reasons and also he thought the Prime Minister expected it to devastate the morale of the German people because Hitler had always told them that the Tirpitz was unsinkable. And once again 617 Squadron and 9 Squadron had proved Hitler wrong.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Hugh Rogers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Panton
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ARogersH150409
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:13:45 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Hugh Rogers was a cameraman during the war and remembers filming the sinking of the Tirpitz in November 1944. Gives a vivid and detailed account of the operation, describing the briefing, the technical modifications to the aircraft and the unfolding of the events.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Norway
England--Lincolnshire
Norway--Tromsø
Scotland--Moray
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Norway--Narvik
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-12
463 Squadron
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
Lancaster
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Waddington
Tallboy
Tirpitz
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1148/11705/AStopesRoeM150601.2.mp3
ef8f612b8ada6cba1003d1b6a12014ac
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Stopes-Roe, Mary
M Stopes-Roe
Dr Mary Stopes-Roe
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Mary Stopes-Roe ( 1927 - 2019), the daughter of the designer Barnes Wallis.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Stopes-Roe, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton. The interviewee is Mary Stopes Roe. The interview is taking place at Mrs Stopes Roe’s home in Birmingham on the 30th of May 2015. Mrs Stopes Roe is the daughter of Sir Barnes Wallis the English scientist, engineer and inventor.
MSR: All through the 30s we used to go on wonderful camping holidays down to Dorset. The Isle of Purbeck. And my father, they were lovely holidays, he was such fun on those holidays. And one of the games that we played there was skipping pebbles across the water, you know. As one does. Or some people do. Anyway, he used to skip pebbles across the water and he could get his to do eight or nine or something or other. I never could do it. It’s that flick of the, twist of the wrist which I never got and mine used to go plop and plop and down. But it was great fun, you know. That, I mean of course it isn’t exactly straightforwardly linked to the bouncing bomb but it was something that was in our background. And my father asked us four, well he told us four, to collect my mother’s old tin wash tub, to fill it with cold water which we brought out in cans and things from the kitchen and poured into the washtub. And it was placed on the garden table and then my father produced a catapult which he’d had made at the works and he borrowed my sisters’ marbles and he [laughs] he shot the marbles over the water in the water tub. And there were, there was a string spread across the water tub. And my brother who was the eldest and the most clever had to say whether the bobber went under or over the string and how many times it bounced going across the tub. And the rest of us stood and watched just thinking that daddy was playing a nice game. And then our job was to find the marbles when they’d dropped off the other side. The dear old family doctor who’d come up for reasons, I think my mother was worried about — I don’t know what she was worried about but anyway he was such a dear old friend he came a lot. And he stood in the background and there he is in the picture. My mother, who was very snap happy with her little Kodak thing, photographed everything that happened and she photographed that. And there we all are for time until eternity. Standing by the wash tub on the garden terrace. And my mother later reported that we children were all there of course and when, when the, when the raid was public knowledge my mother reported of course the children never said anything. Thinking that we were very virtuous. I mean she put about the idea that we were very virtuous and, you know, careful. Actually, of course, what really happened was we didn’t say anything was because we had no idea why he was playing this jolly game in the garden. And if you say to your friends when you’re sort of thirteen fourteen’ish, ‘Well my father bounced marbles on the water tub in the garden.’ I mean, you don’t do you because it sounds so stupid. So of course, we didn’t say anything. But the minute the raid was reported I realized what that was for. Roy Chadwick’s contribution, apart from designing the Lancaster, which is no mean feat anyway was absolutely critical to the whole raid. My father realized this and he wrote very warmly to Chadwick to thank him for the effort he made in altering the bomb bay of the Lancaster. Without which alteration the bomb couldn’t be carried and therefore no raid. That was never, I don’t think, I know he didn’t think that Chadwick had had enough honour and, and fame for, for what he did. And I certainly don’t think he did. I mean, when does he ever get mentioned? And yet without him there would not have been a raid, which my father knew and he, and he expressed his gratitude and admiration. The whole of that alteration was done on twenty Lancasters, I think in under three weeks or something. I mean, amazing. Well having altered the Lancaster, poor old Lancaster’s undercarriage to carry the upkeep. The bouncing bomb. Then of course my father designed the earthquake bombs — Tallboy and Grand Slam. A Tallboy is pretty big. A Grand Slam is even bigger and the Lancaster had to have her undercarriage altered again. Her bomb bays. In fact, in the Grand Slam, I think I’m right, that the bomb bay couldn’t actually be used. It had to be sort of tied up with rope. Not quite but when it came to Grand Slam, twenty two thousand pound of bomb underneath the Lancaster’s belly Roy Chadwick had to remove the bomb doors completely and attach the Grand Slam under her belly by means of chains. I mean, that was no mean alteration but it worked. And my father is remembered, mainly I suppose, for the bouncing bomb for the dams’ raid. For the engineer’s way of stopping the war which is wonderful. I don’t complain about that at all but he, it is not, he was not a man of war. He was a man of peace. He was brought up to believe very very firmly in the benefits of the society in which he lived. The culture in which he lived. The background against which he lived. And he thought it was his duty, indeed the duty of every man and woman to fight for, to protect this culture. That’s why he did it. Not because he was a man of war. He was not. Of course, you have big wars to fight and you fight them but in the mean, in between the wars he did develop the most beautiful airship, and successful, which I don’t, I don’t think people should forget. The R100. Not the R101. That’s a very interesting story that but not to be told here. But it was from the building of the R100 that he devised the geodetic structure for making curved and strong and lightweight bodies. Heavier than aircraft. That went straight into the Wellington, the Wellesley and would finally have been used in the Windsor which actually it was not used in the, in the war. I don’t think it every reached the bombing stage. So, it was really design that he was so interested in, I think. Apart from defending his family and country. Nation and belief. It was always the design. The best design that he was aiming at. After the war, in fact, before the war ended he’d moved on in his mind to civil aviation and the benefit for keeping together the Commonwealth as it, by then was. By the ability to fly all around the world without having to put down to take on whatever supplies were needed. Because the intervening lands might not be so welcoming. But this of course involved high speed which involves supersonic flight. Supersonic flight, to be achieved successfully as I have always understood it is it requires a different aeroplane. A different shape of the wings of the aeroplane. They should fold back so that it can dart through the, through the upper atmosphere without having these wings out at right angles. So, from that he started to design what was originally called the Wild Goose. In 1948 he started, well he was thinking of it before the war ended. And that is, he wrote some wonderful memoirs of that. That time. Writing actually in letters to my mother. He never wrote without having a purpose if you see what I mean. If somebody was going to read it. He never sent the letters but there they all are. First of all at Thurley old aerodrome in Bedfordshire and then down to Predannack in Cornwall. On the Lizard. And there Wild Goose turned into the Swallow which was a very beautiful aircraft with the swept back wings in high powered flight. But you have to have them in the normal position to take off in the ordinary atmosphere. So that’s the problem. He, the Swallow got to the point at which it could have had trial runs with a, with a test pilot. And his good old friend Mutt Summers and others would have been willing to try to fly the Swallow. But after the disaster, to my father’s mind, indeed quite true, of the deaths of so many brave young men in the dams’ raid he swore that never again would he put another man’s life in danger. He would not have a test pilot. So, and as everybody knows the government wouldn’t support the development any further and so as he sadly said, we sold it to America. What Boeing did with it I can’t remember. But anyway, my father sadly said as I also remember they spoiled it by putting a tail on it. There was a plan. He devised a design for a bridge to go, I think it was underwater. An underwater bridge over the Messina Straits between Italy and Sicily. I don’t quite know what happened to that design but I don’t think it ever got made. Which was a pity because it would have been, you know, rather interesting. He, he designed racing skiffs for boys clubs. That was his love. His love of the water and everything to do with the sea. So, when somebody asked him to do that he did it. He designed at Brooklands where he was working of course for, by this time it was BAC not Vickers Armstrong’s and the stratosphere chamber is absolutely huge. I have, in fact, I it was opened, it was redone by English heritage and opened again about a year ago. And it is there by the, by where he had his research and development department. And in it you could test anything that you wanted to have, wanted to be tested under extreme circumstances. For example, de-icing of trawlers and indeed de-icing of aeroplane structures too in very high altitudes. And there are wonderful photographs of trawlers with, in the stratosphere chamber, ice dripping off their rigging and all this and whatever. It’s amazing. That was his design and there it still is. So that, that was another thing that was quite important. While the Swallow was being developed and perfected in Predannack in Cornwall Leonard Cheshire joined Barnes Wallis again there. I think this is not very often remembered that that was a point at which the two worked together again and my father admired Cheshire very much indeed. I expect Cheshire admired him but that I don’t know because he was very interested in Cheshire’s work for the disabled, the sick and the needy and was a great supporter of the Cheshire homes. Always. And that’s not very often, I think, remembered. On that same line my father devised, he became the first president of the Bath Medical Engineering Institute and he, because he had designed lightweight calipers for children. You know, he had seen children hobbling about with great hefty things on, calipers on their legs and he designed lightweight calipers. And thus, he became the President of Bath Medical Engineering Institute which was a position which he held for quite some years. I’ve often wondered what it was that made him even think of, you know, sort of a bit far from bombs and flying at supersonic speeds. But looking back over his life his father, who was a doctor, got polio myelitis in 1893. And my father was then six and I mean, it was a pretty, it was a crisis for the family because of course at that stage there was no cure. He just was laid flat for six months. Money was scarce and so on. And in the end my grandfather had an enormous metal caliper down his leg. And I remember, as a child we used to wonder what on earth was under his trouser leg because it had this very sort of rigid angle at the knee and when he wanted to bend his leg he had to bend down and press the metal and it made a click and we were fascinated. But I suspect the trouble the family went through then stuck in Barnes’s mind for the rest of his life. One of the outcomes of the raid on the dams was that precision bombing became a possibility which it had not been before. You did not have to have carpet bombing once you had got a squadron with the skill and aptitude of 617. And they were amazing. You could actually precision bomb without damaging vast numbers of ordinary civilians. This was very important. My father had, had it in mind and the Tallboy and Grand Slam were on his drawing board but of course they couldn’t be used without the efficiency and skill and bravery of 617. So that the two were totally, totally linked. The development of the skill and competence of the squadron and the skill of the designer. One outcome of the dams’ raid, the success of the dams’ raid which is not often mentioned I think is the vital importance of precision bombing which 617 Squadron achieved. Previously, while of course there were many targets that would have benefited us greatly if we could have smashed couldn’t be broken by ordinary sized bombs and dropped from a great height. To do, to smash the really heavy armaments construction places in France and North Europe you needed things like the Tallboy and the Grand Slam. The earthquake bombs which my father had certainly begun to design. I don’t know how far he’d got by the time the dams’ raid was achieved but of course they, they were not any use without the capability for precision bombing which 617 had now achieved. Once the Air Ministry, War Ministry had realized this, that there was this ability to deliver a weapon. They did say to my father, you know, finish designing the earthquake which he then went and proceeded to do. And it was, I mean that the, the development of the precision bombing capability is not always, I think, given the merit that it should have been given. Those men were extremely skilled. Without their ability and of course the bomb. The tools to go to be used. The bombs. The earthquake bombs. The Tirpitz would not have been sunk. The first target to be hit by an earthquake bomb was the Saumur Tunnel. That was the Tallboy. Tallboy then went on to crack the V1 bomb launch sights. I remember those. They were famous. They came over. They made a droning noise. When you heard the droning noise you just were pretty near it, pretty careful to listen. If the droning noise stopped you were in trouble. Get under the kitchen table or something of the sort. But if the droning noise went on you were alright. It was somebody else. That was the V1s. All seen from a child’s point of view. And the other thing, the next, the next big, I think the most famous Tallboy success was where the V2 rocket was going to be. Rocket was going to be launched from. The V2 rocket was going to be launched from Northern France, a place called Wizernes, and it was from some sort of a launch. It was undercover. Under a great flat concrete surface of a depth which would be quite impossible for ordinary bombs to reach and which no amount of scatter bombing could possibly destroy. But we still have one of the 617 old boys. If I can call them that. John Bell. Who launched from, who launched a Tallboy. I don’t remember which plane. Which plane it was dropped from but —
AP: He dropped it from a Lancaster.
MSR: Oh, I know it was a Lancaster.
AP: Oh sorry.
MSR: I meant the, oh goodness me.
AP: I think it was KCA.
MSR: Was it? Oh, I’d better put that in it case it’s wrong.
AP: We’ll just say sorry about that. We’ll just keep talking. He was a bomb aimer.
MSR: Yeah.
AP: And he was the one who released that Tallboy.
MSR: Yes.
AP: On the dome.
MSR: Yes. The only way to destroy that dome was by an earthquake bomb. And John Bell, who is still with us who was the bomb aimer on the Lancaster that went over this Wizernes rocket pen and his bomb dropped on the, on this concrete dome. Lord knows how much concrete was piled in there but anyway the Tallboy destroyed it and the V2 rocket didn’t have a chance.
AP: So, they were never able to launch it.
MSR: No.
AP: Because it was in a chalk quarry, this is the interesting geology bit, it was in a chalk quarry and the dome was, there was a whole load of rockets underneath it. John’s bomb didn’t hit the dome. It just hit the outside of the dome and because it was chalk the earthquake shockwave crumbled the chalk.
MSR: Yeah. Yeah. This rocket, V2 rocket pen was actually constructed within a chalk quarry. A quarry for mining chalk and while my father had always said that if you could get a bomb into the, down into the earth deep enough it didn’t have to be actually on the spot because the earthquake effect would destroy the target that you were aiming at. I remember him saying that if it would, if water could increase the strength of an explosion at thirty feet then if you could only get a bomb down in the earth at sufficient depth the same sort of earthquake effect would, would work. And it did. And because it was in this chalk quarry the chalk all shook and crumbled and the whole thing collapsed. But it was the earthquake effect. Not having gone straight down through the concrete surface. But that was what my father had predicted would happen. He would get a bomb deep enough into the earth which the Tallboy did and the Grand Slam even more.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Mary Stopes-Roe
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-01
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AStopesRoeM150601
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Discusses her father’s designs work and remembers both skipping stones on a river during holidays with her father and catapulting marbles over a washtub in their garden. She goes on to discuss the Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation, the bouncing bomb and the Tall boy and Grand Slam bombs. She talks about the importance of Roy Chadwick and the Lancaster, and her father’s other designs that included the R100 airship, the geodetic structure of the Wellington, and designs for civil aircraft the Wild Goose and the Swallow.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
1945
Format
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00:23:12 audio recording
Contributor
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Julie Williams
617 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing of the Saumur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
bouncing bomb
Chadwick, Roy (1893-1947)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
childhood in wartime
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Grand Slam
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Tallboy
Tirpitz
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1176/11745/AValentineM150724.2.mp3
a2356fb69fdfd997eb1f470214b096cb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Valentine, Murray
M Valentine
Murray Vagnolini
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history with Murray Valentine. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 61 Squadron and 617 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Valentine, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Andrew Panton, the interviewee is Murray Valentine. The interview is taking place at The Office Bar in Seaford, and the date of the interview is the 31st of July 2015. What were your duties and responsibilities as the wireless op?
MV: Well, receiving more than transmitting because transmitting made you eligible to be fired at. You had headquarter main line broadcast made about every quarter of an hour which told you what you were doing, and gave you the exact conditions, the weather, and you got home. That broadcast, as I say, every quarter of an hour. Also, of course your main thing was if you were shot down and, in the water, you had all facilities for transmitting and making yourself available and position at sea in a dingy. Fortunately, I had no occasion for any of these things, but we did have one occasion when we had a fin shot off by a night fighter and we- There again did not have to make an emergency, emergency transmission. So, with all the weather reports and positionings sent to us from the mainland, you had to pick them up every quarter of an hour and pass them to the captain, so the rest of the crew knew where we were.
AP: Were there any other duties that you were expected to do as the wireless op? Anything else you did in the aircraft?
MV: Well, are you referring to the-
AP: The Lancaster.
MV: Yes, when we dropped the ten tonner or the twelve-thousand pounder, winding in the retaining arms. If we had the Lancaster that did not have a- bomb doors that closed, you just made sure the arms were retracted and the aircraft was ready to return home. Once I was standing above the bomb when- Just before the bomb was released and the next thing, I was raised up and my head touched the ceiling of the Lancaster [chuckles], the weight of the aircraft releasing the weight of the bomb, which caused some significant distress to most of the crew, but particularly myself because I was standing there, about to open the bomb doors above the bomb as it went.
AP: How did the aircraft feel on take-off? Was it any different with that huge bomb?
MV: No, it- The pilots used to- Mentioned the fact that it was quite a thing to get off the ground with a heavy weight on it. You could feel the air- The engine straining and the aircraft straining to get off the ground but, in actual fact in the air, as far as the aircraft's movements and its aptitude, was just about the same. Well, I would say it was just like the twelve-thousand pounder, you took post when the bomb aimer went forward, or he was already forward saying, ‘We’re coming up to the bombing run’, and he would say- Give the pilot orders, ‘Left, left, right, right, steady, bomb gone’, and as it went you suddenly found yourself in mid-air going up to the ceiling as you returned of course you made an effort to get the grab things in [unclear] so that you get back to your, get back to your radio set because time was- Show, you’ve- have a broadcast coming from home would be almost due because you’d been out of your seat for quarter of an hour almost. And then, eventually you went to operational training unit, Wellingtons, where one day a pilot came up to me and said, ‘Are you- Have you got a crew?’, I said, ‘No, sir’, ‘cause I was flight sergeant then, he said, ‘Would you like to join me?’, which I said, ‘Yes’, and then we went from there to a, continued flying there for about three months on Wellingtons and then we left there and went to Stirlings, then we finished up with Lancaster finishing school for a fortnight and then to a squadron.
AP: And that- Was that 61 Squadron? Was that 6-
MV: In those days it was. Skellingthorpe, just outside of Lincoln. I’ve been there and seen them, they’ve got some recollection of it all but not much, but it was a station that did heavy bombing, from Bomber Command. All those stations there, Skellingthorpe, and two others- three round there, just outside of Lincoln.
AP: Was the weather ever foggy? Did you ever have to land with FIDO or any of those DRAM systems?
MV: We’d be diverted back home, that’s why it was important to get your quarter of an hour message ‘cause you might be diverted. There might be clamping[?] at Woodhall Spa and, or Skellingthorpe, and you would land away, probably only for one night, two nights, for a dance in the town, jolly good.
AP: And- But was that when the weather was bad at Woodhall Spa, you’d land somewhere else?
MV: Oh yes. You were diverted. Yes, you were diverted and you came back to the pilot, ‘Pilot, sir we’ve just had a- radio operator to pilot, we’ve just had a diversion’, ‘Alright thank you, navigator to pilot, he’s aware you’ve got the steer[?], we’re going to land at so-and-so’. All very- Everything is that you’re all very trained.
AP: Very, very, very trained, and the last point I wanted to ask is joining 617 Squadron, could you say a little bit about that transfer from 61 Squadron to 617, how it happened?
MV: Well, my pilot decide he wasn’t going home ‘cause he’d had a Dear John from his fiancé of three years, and I had just been commissioned so things were altering very much for me, having become an officer, and I came- We diverted back home, that's why it was important to get your quarter of an hour message ‘cause you might be diverted. There might be clamping at Woodhall Spa and- Or Skellingthorpe and you would land away, probably only for one night, two nights, for a dance in the town, jolly good.
AP: Transfer from 61 Squadron to 617, how it happened?
MV: Well, my pilot decide he wasn’t going home ‘cause he’d had a Dear John from his fiancé of three years, and I had just been commissioned so things were altering very much for me, having become an officer, and I came- We came back off leave and reported to the, to the old Skellingthorpe and we were taken by coach to Woodhall Spa, which was quite amazing to me, all very different. However, the fact what we were going to do operationally was also going to be very very interesting.
AP: What were the briefings like? Can you remember anything about the briefings that you had with 617? Targets and-
MV: Well, any, any target you went into, you, you tried to find out from your ground crew what the bomb load was, what the petrol load was and when you went to the- You had your, your briefing on radio, then you went into general briefing and they had, they had a blackboard and the briefing officer would stand up and say, ‘Gentlemen, it’s going to be a long night. Hamburg.’ ‘Woah’, you’d hear. Or, ‘It’s just to the French coast’, but whatever happens anywhere in Germany was always a heavy task because, you had- You were fired at all the way from the French coast into Germany and then when you got to Germany you really got the firing.
AP: And once you’d had to briefing, what happened between then and getting on the aircraft?
MV: Well, you’re all thoroughly briefed and highly secure, so you were just taken to coaches outside or- I think they were coaches, and driven out to your aircraft and boarded the aircraft and the pilot would then taxi as ordered on intercom, from flight control.
AP: Was anybody at the caravan waving you off or?
MV: No, not till you came round. You were called forward, and this was done by bright aldis lamps.
AP: So, like green, green?
MV: Yes, and as you’d- You’d probably in line taxi round, came round, and the pilot would say nothing more than, ‘B Baker taking, coming forward now,’ [unclear].
AP: What’s it like when he put full throttle back and the thing went down the runway?
MV: Quite exciting really because the- you’ve got a bomb load on, it’s entirely different to going on a, a flying training trip, the pilot was like, ‘Right, wireless operator, gunner one, gunner two, navigator, bomb aimer, that’s it, right here we go then’. He always used to do that my pilot, ‘Here we go then’. You feel the brakes go on, power of the engines revving and then the brakes let off and forward you go. ‘Here we go’.
AP: Was that then, standard Merlin?
MV: Yes, oh yes, four of those, even with the brakes on and the pilot would put forward his own feeling that the engineer would hold his hands to feel and the pilot would then let the handbrake off and away we go, ‘Right gentlemen, say cheerio to everybody, here we go’, our pilot used to say. ‘Here we go’.
AP: How long did it used to take to get up to your operating?
MV: Oh, I don’t know, probably- we- to get- we used to get to operational height before we really set course. So, we’d be over the- Near the airfield for an hour, to get- Oh yes circling, to get at [unclear] to get [unclear] and this, then the navigator said, ‘Are you ready? Now set 020’, or whatever it was and he said, ‘Right, pilot to navigator, on course’.
AP: And, did you eat or drink anything on those trips? They were long trips, weren’t they?
MV: Not really, we did, we did have something, I can’t remember what it was [chuckles], but we did have a thermos flask, all this of course was in case you happened to ditch, bail out, you see. If it was- It was- If they said, the raid is five hours, six hours, the longest we did was to Königsberg, East Prussia, ten hours twenty-five. Long trip.
AP: And was it cold?
MV: Not really, no. The heating used to be down by the radio operator, the heating, although people used to wear a certain amount but you didn’t wear the- Towards the end of the war we weren’t wearing the flying clothing they showed in the old days. Reliable but not particularly comfortable, was the Wellington. It was a geodetic construction with a cloth over outside. But it’s interesting to see the bomber command memorial, I haven’t seen it, opposite the RAF club in Piccadilly. It’s got geodetic construction across the ceiling, and who invented the geodetic construction? Barnes Wallis. They said- Many people have flown in Wellington and Halifaxes and it twisted and- but it didn’t fall to pieces, the geodetic construction. But I met him when we were dropping the Grand Slam for some reason (I wasn’t all that younger than the others) I was brought forward and introduced to him, and he said, ‘Take it easy son’, I [chuckles] ‘We have to take it easy Mr Wallis’, and we had a bit of a chat and that’s it. Then I, about twenty years later, I was at Brampton- Yes, RAF Brampton, and he was there as a guest of honour for the squadron, squadron reunion, and I mentioned I had met him before and I'd like to meet him again, and I was brought forward and I said, ‘Hello Mr Wallis, you won’t remember me, I met you when we were dropping the Grand Slam.’ ‘Oh but I do remember you’, and I've told that to his daughter, and I told it to his son, and his daughter said, ‘Course dad would, he wouldn’t forget anything on- In principle’. If the Lancaster was suddenly- I went to see one at- After the war, at the Battle of Britain memorial flight and it- We went to see- They have a special place to show the Lancasters, just got one left now, where it landed, and I went there with my father-in-law and he said, ‘Murray you’ve got tears in your eyes’, and of course, yes, you spent a lot of time in- Yes it could be hot, it could be cold and I- On occasions I'd look back, I was going on operation in- Take my battle dress off and have a- Myself in shirt sleeves regardless of the outcome, if I had to leave the aircraft suddenly. One was there doing a job and that was it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Murray Valentine
Creator
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Andrew Panton
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AValentineM150724
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:17:25 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Murray Valentine was a wireless operator with 61 Squadron and 617 Squadron. He describes his duties as well as his job on board the Lancasters on bombing operations. He recalls going to an operational training unit and flying Wellingtons for three months before going on to Stirlings. His longest operation was to Königsberg, East Prussia which took over ten hours. He recalls his pilot always said, ‘Here we go,’ as they embarked on their operations. Towards the end of the war, he met Barnes Wallis whilst dropping the Grand Slam. Twenty years later, he met Barnes Wallis again at RAF Brampton.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Tilly Foster
Steph Jackson
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
61 Squadron
617 Squadron
aircrew
Grand Slam
Lancaster
military service conditions
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
training
Wallis, Barnes Neville (1887-1979)
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1252/16490/MCheshireGL72021-181210-010002.1.jpg
de1b90ca99d4b152a16bef637fd44c6d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cheshire, Leonard
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard
Baron Cheshire
Description
An account of the resource
374 items concerning Group Captain Leonard Cheshire VC, OM, DSO & Two Bars, DFC. Collection consists of photographs of people, vehicles, places, aircraft, weapons and targets; documents including, private and service letters, signals, telegrams, intelligence reports, crew lists and official documents. Cheshire served on 102 and 35 Squadrons and commanded 76 and 617 Squadrons. The collection includes details of 617 Squadron's precision bombing operations. Also included are two sub-collections: one containing 21 photographs of Tinian and Saipan, the other consisting of 37 audio tapes of speeches given by Cheshire after the war.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by The Leonard Cheshire Archive and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is property of the Leonard Cheshire Archive which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
From : A.O.C. HQ. No 5 Group.
To : Conningsby Base, R.A.F. Station, WOODHALL.
A.407. 10th. JUNE (Personal for Officer Commanding) The following message has been received from A.O.C.-in-C Bomber Command. Please give my congratulations to all concerned in the attack on Saumur Tunnel. The results speak for themselves of the astonishing skill and efficiency shown.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Note from Air Officer Command 5 Group
Description
An account of the resource
To officer commanding Conningsby Base RAF Woodhall Spa passing on congratulations on success of Saumur tunnel operation.
Creator
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A.O.C. No 5 Group
Date
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1944-06-10
Format
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One typewritten document
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
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MCheshireGL72021-181210-010002
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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France
France--Saumur
Temporal Coverage
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1944-06-08
1944-06-09
Is Part Of
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Cheshire, Leonard. Bombing of the Samur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
License
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Royalty-free permission to publish
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is property of the Leonard Cheshire Archive which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ashley Jacobs
David Bloomfield
Georgie Donaldson
5 Group
617 Squadron
Bombing of the Saumur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Coningsby
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1252/16491/MCheshireGL72021-181210-010003.2.jpg
043f6236c9b8efc864dd8d40ea5db9fa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cheshire, Leonard
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard
Baron Cheshire
Description
An account of the resource
374 items concerning Group Captain Leonard Cheshire VC, OM, DSO & Two Bars, DFC. Collection consists of photographs of people, vehicles, places, aircraft, weapons and targets; documents including, private and service letters, signals, telegrams, intelligence reports, crew lists and official documents. Cheshire served on 102 and 35 Squadrons and commanded 76 and 617 Squadrons. The collection includes details of 617 Squadron's precision bombing operations. Also included are two sub-collections: one containing 21 photographs of Tinian and Saipan, the other consisting of 37 audio tapes of speeches given by Cheshire after the war.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by The Leonard Cheshire Archive and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is property of the Leonard Cheshire Archive which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] RAILWAY TUNNEL AND BRIDGE, SAUMUR. [/underlined]
[underlined] NARRATIVE. [/underlined]
On the 8th June, 1944, the squadron had been detailed to attack a special target and by late afternoon the plans for the attack had almost been completed. At this point, however, this operation was cancelled and an entirely new operation ordered. In response to a request from the army, the squadron was to attack the railway Tunnel at Saumur, an important railway junction in Western France. Although the Marshalling Yards at Saumur had already been successfully attacked, enemy troops were still reaching the invasion area from South Western France and the only way to stop this flow of reinforcements was to cut the line which ran just east of Saumur.
The target was very small and to make the attack really successful, extremely accurate bombing was necessary. It was decided to use, for the first time, a new type of bomb which had recently become available in small numbers. This was the 12,000 lb penetration bomb.
The flare force was to carry a load of 1,000 lb bombs and was detailed to attack the bridge, which carried the line across the river at the northern end of the tunnel.
The attack opened on time and although most of the flares fell to the south and east of the tunnel the Force Leader was able to identify the target without illumination. He dropped four red spot fires as markers and these fell on the railway tracks just South of the tunnel entrance.
The bombing, as usual, was of a high standard. There was a direct hit on the roof of the tunnel, two hits on the tracks just south of the tunnel entrance and the remainder of the bombs fell within 50/100 yards of the aiming point. Two aircraft bombed on the fires as the markers had been extinguished by a direct hit toward the end of the attack.
The attack on the bridge was not quite so successful. In spite of the lack of flare illumination most of crews were able to identify their target and a marker was put down within 50 yards of the aiming point by F/Lt. Fawke. Unfortunately this could not be done until some time after the bombing had commenced as F/Lt Fawke had been standing by to mark the tunnel had the Leader been unable to do so. However, bombing was well concentrated and there was at least one direct hit on the bridge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Railway tunnel and bridge, Saumur, operation narrative
Description
An account of the resource
Relates that in response to request from the Army a planned operation was cancelled at late notice and replaced by operation against the railway tunnel at Saumur. As accurate bombing was required it was decided to use the recently available 12,000 pound penetration bomb. Flare force was to carry 1000 pound bombs and attack bridge. Leader identified target and dropped red spot flares. Notes direct hit on the roof of the tunnel and others close by. The attack on the bridge was less successful.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
France--Saumur
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MCheshireGL72021-181210-010003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Cheshire, Leonard. Bombing of the Samur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is property of the Leonard Cheshire Archive which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ashley Jacobs
David Bloomfield
Georgie Donaldson
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One-page typewritten document
617 Squadron
bombing
Bombing of the Saumur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Tallboy
target indicator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1252/16492/MCheshireGL72021-181210-010004.2.jpg
bee29088d255f93e853c971d9a3b80c7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cheshire, Leonard
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard
Baron Cheshire
Description
An account of the resource
374 items concerning Group Captain Leonard Cheshire VC, OM, DSO & Two Bars, DFC. Collection consists of photographs of people, vehicles, places, aircraft, weapons and targets; documents including, private and service letters, signals, telegrams, intelligence reports, crew lists and official documents. Cheshire served on 102 and 35 Squadrons and commanded 76 and 617 Squadrons. The collection includes details of 617 Squadron's precision bombing operations. Also included are two sub-collections: one containing 21 photographs of Tinian and Saipan, the other consisting of 37 audio tapes of speeches given by Cheshire after the war.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by The Leonard Cheshire Archive and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is property of the Leonard Cheshire Archive which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] INTERPRETATION REPORT. [/underlined]
[underlined] SAUMUR (TUNNEL). [/underlined]
[underlined] PROVISIONAL STATEMENT OF DAMAGE. [/underlined]
The greatest concentration of craters lies to the Southern end of the target area, where severe damage has been done to tracks and embankment. One hit is seen on the tunnel at the extreme South end.
The following items of damage are seen.
1. Direct hit on roof of tunnel only a few feet from S. entrance.
2. All tracks cut at a distance of approx.. 100 yds. from S. entrance.
3. Near miss to road/rail intersection 185 yds. from S. entrance, cutting all tracks and blocking the road with debris.
4. Crater in road approx.. 150 yds. West of S. entrance.
5. 17 craters within a radius of 220 yds. of S. entrance destroying or damaging several small buildings.
6. Two direct hits on buildings approx.. 50 yds. West of the N. entrance.
7. Large crater blocking road approx.. 180 yds. East of N. entrance.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interpretation report - Saumur tunnel - provisional statement of damage
Description
An account of the resource
Concentration of craters at south end of target area, severe damage to tracks and embankment. Notes direct hit in roof of tunnel a few feet from south entrance and lists six other areas of damage.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MCheshireGL72021-181210-010004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
France--Saumur
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Cheshire, Leonard. Bombing of the Samur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is property of the Leonard Cheshire Archive which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it. Please note that it was digitised by a third-party which used technical specifications that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ashley Jacobs
David Bloomfield
Georgie Donaldson
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One-page typewritten document
617 Squadron
bombing
Bombing of the Saumur tunnel (8/9 June 1944)
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Tallboy