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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1178/11749/AVanRielJF150825.2.mp3
cffc6c8e3da6c0812386bffac7a93acf
Dublin Core
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Title
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Van Riel, Coby
J F Van Riel
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Coby Van Riel (b. 1932), a memoir and her brothers war diary. She was a recipient of the Operation Manna food drops.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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VanRiel, JF
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on the behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock. The interviewee is Mrs Coby Van Riel. The interview is taking place at her home at Bracebridge Heath on the 25th of August 2015. So, Coby if you can just perhaps tell me a bit about where, when and where you were born.
CVR: Yes. I was born in the Hague in Holland on the 6th of August 1932. And my brother was born two and a half years before. And my parents were not that young because my father had been married before and he lost his wife from tuberculosis and his little baby as well, died as well. And after that, he knew my mother because she was the sister of my father’s, sorry the sister, yeah of my father’s brother. I say difficult. Two families. Two brothers and two sisters. Yeah. So my mother knew him already and then they got to know each other better and they married at a later age. So, when I was born my mother was already forty-one.
MC: Oh goodness.
CVR: Yeah. So, I went to a school. It was the, for little toddlers first in a place called Scheveningen, near the Hague. A fishing harbour. And after that I went to the primary school. Also in that area. And then I, so we, we still lived close to Scheveningen. You know, on the edge of the Hague in the Brederodestraat and my mum, my mother had a chemist shop. Although in Holland they call it drogist. And that means it is a shop. There they can sell everything like in a chemist’s shop except drugs. No prescriptions from doctors and all that. And then I went to the Grammar School. Also, still in the area and I have to think about the —
MC: Did you enjoy the schooling? Can you remember much about your schooldays?
CVR: Yeah. I can remember more in detail but I don’t know if you want to know all about that. But anyway, so I have to think.
MC: What did your father do?
CVR: My father was, worked for a baker’s delivery shop. The co-op. Actually, the co-op it was called in Holland. And not Co-op but Volharding which I think was the same company and he used to deliver bread. And he did lots to earn a little bit more money to keep us going because when my mother had the chemist shop and towards the wartime in 1939 there was a critical time, you know. In ’39. And can you call it malaise or [pause] very difficult to keep going, you know. People used to go to other shops if they got something for a half a cent cheaper than in my mother’s shop.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: So it was very hard for them.
MC: Was it unusual for both parents to work in those days? Because, I mean, your father worked at a bakers but your mother ran the chemist shop.
CVR: Yeah. My father had a hard job and because he always helped his brother, my uncle, in the middle of the Hague — he had a café restaurant and he used to work there in the evening to help out, you know. And he wouldn’t come home before 1 o’clock sometimes. And sometimes he used to earn a little bit more money. He used to work in the night in the bakery shop and where the bread was baked and had to get it out of the ovens and all that. And he did a newspaper round. He had a very very hard life doing wallpaper for people, you know. And just to keep my brother and I going because the time was so expensive then. And then the war broke out.
MC: So the time before the war it was, it wasn’t easy.
CVR: No. It was a very hard time and at one point it was so bad and I can remember that that we couldn’t, we didn’t have any heating. We didn’t have enough money. Or my parents didn’t have enough money for the heating and my brother and I would sit at a table with our coats on in the wintertime and our hat on to keep warm and then sent to bed early. And then the baker around the corner took pity on us and I can remember he came with buckets full of pieces of coal to keep the stove going, you know. Yeah. That was really great. But yeah then the war broke out.
MC: So how old were you when the war broke out? So, you would be seven? Seven or eight.
CVR: Yes.
MC: Seven.
CVR: Yes. My birthday was in August and I would have been eight in August but the war broke out in May of course. You know. The 10th of May. And I remember that very vividly and that’s where my story starts you know.
MC: Ah yeah. But yeah, but go back.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Because obviously it was September ’39. It was in ’39 that Britain was at war.
CVR: Yes.
MC: But Holland.
CVR: Was on the 10th of May.
MC: 10th of May.
CVR: Yeah. In 1940.
MC: Can you remember, what, did things change? What was it like at the time? Can you remember?
CVR: In 1940. Yes. The start of it which I have written about was. That in the morning there was an enormous commotion and we heard the aeroplanes coming over of the Germans. And you know everybody ran outside to the harbour because the parachutists, the German parachutists came down and there was a lot of bombing going on as well. So I, as a little girl, you know, I thought I want to see that as well. My parents were too busy. And I quickly, I put something on and my apron and I forgot to put a skirt on. I just ran to [laughs] And I had, as a child I had no idea what that was. Staring at these aeroplanes and people dropping from the aeroplanes on parachutes. But the bombing was going on and I ran back home. And then that was really terrible because people who were injured they ran to the first chemist, drogist shop. Which was my mother’s. There was nothing else. And my mother started to help the injured. But in the end then badly injured people came in. She couldn’t do it any more. She didn’t know how to do it. So I don’t know what she did. Referred people to other places and I think she closed the door. She had to. But I can remember that. It was awful. Really awful.
MC: So when did you first come across any occupying troops?
CVR: Actually, that same day, you know. We were astonished to see the Germans in uniform coming. And they occupied the whole area there. Just us on the border. There was one street to the border of the Hague and Scheveningen and they occupied the whole area. Germans coming in and buying stuff in the shop. And we were just gobsmacked. But that lasted till the beginning 1943 I think. I wrote about it. When they wanted all the people living there, all of them, out. We just were told you have to leave within so many hours. So my mum had to get rid of all the stuff in the shop. I don’t know how she did it. She had some stuff there. I was still going to school from ’40 to ’43 in that area. I got an ausweis, you know. A permit to go to the school but in the meantime my aunt and uncle who had a café restaurant offered us a place because we were chased out. And they said, ‘Well, the only thing we can offer you is go into our cellars below the restaurant café.’ You know. So, my mum and my dad did that and I remember the last time I went to school in the occupied area there was a huge commotion and bombing going on and at some points. And I nearly was too, not far from the school and I was on my little scooter — you know when you move it, one foot on the step. And that was quite a distance from where we were living then, you know with my uncle and aunt. But then I got close and I got so frightened all of a sudden because there was all people were fleeing and going away. So I turned around and just went back. Luckily. I don’t know what would have been going on then after that.
MC: Do you know why they moved you out?
CVR: Because they, the Germans were afraid that from then on the English would come over with their armies and planes and whatever to occupy. Chase the Germans out of Holland and they had put already those things on the beach. I don’t know what you call them.
MC: Ah yes.
CVR: Yeah. And they were laying mines in the sea there. We were not allowed on the beach at all beforehand already. So we were just chased out. All of us who were living there. And we lived in the cellar. And my aunt and uncle said well don’t worry because it’s only maybe for a couple of months and the war will be over [laughs] In ’43? We lived there ‘til after the liberation.
MC: You lived there all that time.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did, I mean were you, were there any evidence of any rebellion, you know?
CVR: No. Not in that area. I know there was the, what do you call that?
MC: The Resistance.
CVR: The Resistance was there.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You know. I wrote about that as well. And I didn’t know that at some point there were certain newspapers going around and also —
MC: Illegal newspapers.
CVR: Yeah. Trouw and Parool I think it was called. And there were people around us who had to take messages, important messages to certain people. And there was one day, it was such a strange day I think that there was nobody who dared to go out with messages and they thought, ‘Hold on. The children. They won’t suspect children.’ And I was asked to take a very important message to a few streets further on. And they said, ‘We’ll put it in your shoe, under your sole, you don’t say anything. You go there. You do as if you go to see a friend. You have to go to that and that address and you deliver that message and don’t speak to anybody. Don’t. Do ignore the German soldiers if you meet them.’ And I did that, you know. So God knows what kind of message that was. Yeah. But we, we noticed quite a few things. Around the corner was a shop and there was, the owner was a Jew. A very nice gentleman. Really nice. And one day there were razzias. You know razzias? A razzia is when suddenly, unexpectedly Germans came along the houses and picked up people. At one point it was boys and men from the age of sixteen I think till whatever. Over forty. They were picked up and sent off.
MC: Forced labour.
CVR: Forced labour. So, one day we thought what’s happening around the corner? This lovely Jewish gentleman was got out of his house. I remember that. Seeing him. He was taken away by the Germans and gone. Never heard of him before.
MC: Because your brother at that time wasn’t old enough for forced labour was he?
CVR: My brother was two and a half years older. Then in ’43 —
MC: So, you would have been ten. No, he wouldn’t.
CVR: Then I must have been —
MC: He would have been about fourteen.
CVR: About ten to twelve. About twelve. Thirteen yeah. So. Yeah.
MC: So, he wasn’t able, he didn’t, he got away with forced labour because —
CVR: No. No.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: But at one point there was another razzia, you know and we were having a party in the café restaurant. We always had parties with the family and so all the old blinds were down of course. You had to have blinds and things. So, we were having this party and then suddenly, that was in the evening, there was a knock on the door of the restaurant and my uncle said, ‘Quick, shhh all down in the cellar. All of you.’ And so we were part of some members and I remember that, lying on the staircase listening what was going on. And later I heard from my uncle when it was safe to come out. He, he hid the son of my neighbour, a cousin of mine. Yeah, the two. Because my brother was not old enough. They got in the top of a big cupboard. On the shelf. There was space but just. They were sitting there. But my uncle had to give up because the dog was there, Sunny. Sunny the dog and he started to bark like anything in front of the cupboard. So we had, the boys had to come out and they were hidden somewhere else. I don’t know. In our cellar or whatever. So the door was closed and we heard my uncle talk to the German soldiers and later he said when it was okay to come out for us and they left. He said, ‘You can come out.’ We continued the party but silent. Silently. And we did but I heard that he had given the German soldiers loads of drinks he still had. Alcoholic drinks. Beer and God knows what so they were really cheerful and in the end they thought, ‘Oh, there is nothing going on here. We’ll leave.’ That was our luck.[laughs]
MC: That sounds very good, that does. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. So, what about your parents still managed to do their jobs and their business? Run their business.
CVR: My, my mum was just housewife then.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: She had lost her shop so she looked after us, after us and helped in, as long as the café restaurant was going but in the end there was no food anymore but she helped there and polished the floors. And my father still delivered bread in that area, and it was with a little cart which they did you know at that time. But then in the Hunger Winter it became so bad. And before there was hardly any bread. We had coupons. I can show you later. You know, I still have coupons and, but there was nothing hardly left and then people started to plunder?, is that right, my father’s cart and it was really dangerous. He couldn’t prevent them and there was a lot of things going on. Fights and all that. So he stopped delivering bread and it was not worth anymore because we had only a small loaf for the whole week. I think for a person or whatever.
MC: So how did you survive? Money and things like that.
CVR: Well, money wise I don’t know how that worked. I think my father still earned something, you know.
MC: Oh.
CVR: And my uncle as well in the café. And they offered money for, oh a guilder for one potato. Nobody had that. But what was your question again about that? Oh yeah. The food. The food of course. So they had assistance from the IKB. I K B. That was an interkerkelijk — interchurch organization, a bureau who, and asked the children of us and that was December ’44. After ’45 then. Beginning ’45 to let the children come over to certain areas and then we were examined by doctors and divided into three groups — A, B and C. And I think A was the worse, B medium and C was the children who were still alright. And my brother and I were examined and we were put in the worst group — A. And then they said, ‘You can come,’ I think it was twice a week here, ‘And you will get, you have to get your little saucepan, not a big, a little saucepan and you will have some stew or porridge.’ And we were allowed to take it home but what, what’s happened at home because we were living with then, I think thirteen people together in my uncle’s house.
MC: So, you were still in the cellar at that point.
CVR: In the daytime we were in the cellar. In the daytime there was another uncle who died from starvation. And then neighbours came down and we were in the daytime with thirteen people, you know. But they do, when I and my brother came back with a little saucepan we all ate of it and these church people got to know that. They said, ‘Ah. No way they go home with their food. They have to eat in the place itself.’ Yeah. So, you know I’ve still a photo of it in a little booklet I got from Holland, “The Hunger Winter,” and there are photos in there. And also, my brother and I would go to the centres. There you could go and queue up and they would be coming, there were long queues and food would come from another place by boat from Delft to the Hague. And then brought to the, to these streets where you had to queue up. And you had your coupons and you would get from the big, we call them gamellen big metal [pause] yeah, containers where the food was in there. And they would ladle out, one it was either stew or soup but nothing much in it, in your saucepan and you would go home. But some days when there were raids and bombing going on the food wouldn’t turn up. You had to go home. The next day you could come and the food in the summer would go off but you still ate it, you know. So anyway, those things helped a little bit. And a kind butcher asked my mother if my brother and I could come over on a Saturday. He would try to do as much as possible to cook something from where he got it from, from bones. Cook a little bit of soup and veg and with other children we sat there but our stomachs were not used to it anymore. Because meanwhile we ate tulip bulbs, nettles, grass, fodder from the kettle. What was the [pause] sugar beet. That was all we tried to eat. So when we sat in the butcher’s shop around a table, all as small children and it’s not a very nice story but some children they couldn’t [pause] they couldn’t keep it in.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Later they started eating the same again, you know. It was horrible. Absolutely horrible. But we had fights at some points when the trailers came in with all these containers. The gamellen the metal containers. And you could go there as well, you know, to get something. But my brother and I and other people, young, all gangs. We called ourselves gangs climbed on the trailers because all the food had been given out. We climbed on it and we would lick, lick from these gamellen and I have a photo in that booklet as well. I haven’t got my own photos because we didn’t have cameras. So how they got hold of it in the booklet. And then we started to fight. You know. We suddenly divided into gangs and they started throwing stones from both sides. The children. And then I remember, I remember that so much and I felt horrible. I thought stones. Them throwing stones at us and we all try to lick the things. I thought forget it and I never went back anymore.
MC: No.
CVR: I hated it. I never did it anymore.
MC: Yeah, it was —
CVR: So that’s how it got around and in the end you know then in April when the RAF came over with the food and the Germans had not allowed them to do it. They asked permission. They said no way because they wanted to starve the whole west out. No. Nothing was allowed to come to us. Not even in Holland from the east where it was a bit better. They said, ‘No. You’ve got on strike with a Resistance group,’ you know. ‘You blocked our trains for ammunition and stuff for the war to come out.’ He said, ‘Right,’ they said, ‘Right. That’s your punishment. The whole west where the strike started you won’t have any food any more. You sort yourself out.’ And then in Holland the Resistance group or the head of the Resistance group got in contact with London. With Queen Wilhelmina and Churchill and they said, ‘You have to stop to try to liberate now. You have to feed us because already twenty thousand people in the west died from starvation and if you don’t do that there will be hundreds maybe two or three hundred thousand people dying very soon.’ And that helped. Wilhelmina and Churchill said, ‘Right. Liberation has to stop. First the people.’ That was our luck. You know. And then the RAF came over and I’ll never forget it. And they didn’t yet know because the Germans had forbidden them to come over with food. But it was towards the end of the war. So, they had to lose their face then you know. And the RAF still didn’t know whether they would be shot at.
MC: The early ones, yeah.
CVR: Nothing happened.
MC: Yeah. Eventually they, they had a truce.
CVR: Yeah. And then I stood outside. I ran outside and everybody ran outside and we looked up and we saw those aeroplanes coming. I just get goose pimples. In the distance we saw the aeroplanes coming over and drop food parcels in certain areas. And from there on we got food. And from the Swedish Red Cross. I’ll never forget that. We got Swedish bread. I first thought, as a child the bread came rolling down now. They had dropped huge bags of flour. They were brought to the bakeries and they baked the bread. And that was the first time I got a piece of bread from, again from Sweden. And the parcels, we had to get them from the RAF. It was divided, you know. Some burst on the, on the ground as well, bitterly but what was there that was divided. Everybody could come in. I don’t know how they did it. With coupons or something. And you got your parcel with a strong warning not to eat straight away all of it. Just little portions because our stomachs were not used to it. But it was high time. You know, I nearly lost my mother and father and that was told on the 21st of April to all the people in the marquee. The Dutch attaché introduced me. He had asked me a little bit. I’d never met him. He had it all in his computer and he introduced me to all the people in the marquee and he talked about it. And I suddenly felt, felt two tears down my face. I thought, oh no. I don’t want to do that.
MC: This was in April of this year.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: Yeah. The Operation Manna commemorations.
CVR: I still have it on the television. You know. I kept it but it’s a pity I don’t have more solid things.
MC: Yeah. So, when the food was dropped were the Germans still around? Was the —
CVR: Yes. They were.
MC: Were they, did they get any of the food?
CVR: No. No. And that, that helped us over because it was in April and on the 5th of May for us that was the end of the war.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: And then, but it took a long time for people and there were still loads of people who died still, you know because they were too far down.
MC: To survive. Yeah.
CVR: So one, one uncle died. And I heard, in the cellar we were sleeping with all the beds you know. One after the other. In between my bed there was string for my father and mother. But I don’t know whether they knew I was there. I was sitting behind my bed. And they had called the doctor and then I got worried and I was listening what the doctor said. And the attaché told the people in the marquee as well. I heard the doctor say to my parents, ‘I am so sorry but you have to prepare for the end because you need food. There’s nothing I can do about it. I’m so sorry.’ I heard that. It was just, they just made it, my parents. Just. Yeah.
MC: It was very traumatic. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: So, but this, this —
MC: But they managed to survive with the drop. The food drop.
CVR: This whole event and I’m so grateful for it started in January. I’m with the U3A. You know the U3A?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And I’m in different clubs but once a month we have a meeting and in January there was a speaker. We always had a speaker and that was Paul Robinson. The vice air marshall. He would come then to talk about, did he say [pause] no not, that he would talk. Give a talk. I don’t know what the subject was but something about his career and all that. So I was sitting there and then he started and somebody helped him to show his video and all the pictures on the screen. And then he came suddenly to the Manna operation. He was started talking about Holland and I was sitting there, you know having thought never to be reminded of it any more. And there was this huge picture of the people standing in Holland. They’re looking at the Lancasters drop the food. And he was talking about that and I started to shake so much that somebody next to me put his hand on my arm, you know. To calm down. And we could always ask questions. And I put my hand up and there were more people but I kept on. I think I have to talk to him. I have to talk to him. And when it was my turn I said, ‘I only want to say I was there. I experienced the Manna operation and I have never had the opportunity to thank you,’ I said, although he was not in it but I meant the RAF at that time. I said, ‘I never had the opportunity to thank you for all you did. Dropped the food. Because if you wouldn’t have done that I might not have been here. I might not have had a family of course. Nothing.’ And then I started, blurted out some of my story. I thought later how could I do that? And people, it was so the silent in the hall. There were about eighty people of us. And Paul was standing there and I was so much in my story, and the person next to me, I think he was an RAF man as well he tried to calm down I was shaking so much. And then in my story I looked up to Paul and he had his hanky. He was crying. And then later the whole room, they came to us and loads of people were crying then. I thought, oh no. What have I done? What have I started? But to have been talking still about it all the time from that speech of Paul in January and from there on it, it happened. He said, ‘I want you in it on the 21st of April.’ And I told him I had my story, you know so we were in contact and also you know I went to Hemswell Court. I was invited on the 21st and the 25th is postponed now. The talk. But I don’t know if I can do that again even if they ask me. It’s all in the past now to talk about Manna operation.
MC: Going back slightly. Did you continue your schooling throughout that period and then after the war?
CVR: Yes. In the wartime I had to ausweis, you know.
MC: Yes. You said.
CVR: And then as soon as the liberation was there and the English people took over from the Germans and then I got a permit. An official permit to go to school because in that area nobody lived there yet. But my brother and I were permitted, the school was opened in the area, to go there. So that was quite, going every day to and from. And my brother and I were very inquisitive and after school time we went through all the area and there was no wood left. Not near the tram rails. Not in the houses because we did as well. We stole all the wood to burn in our little stoves we had, you know. We had a special stove in the wartime called Mayo and we burned stuff in there. But my brother and I went through all the streets and we went into the houses. There was nobody there. It was very spooky. And we discovered that the floors had been broken up and we said, ‘God, look at there.’ I can still remember the German soldiers slept under the floors. They had their beds still there and material lying around. We didn’t dare to touch anything but we noticed that in several places —
MC: Which area was that in?
CVR: That was Scheveningen in the Hague again. The Hague and close to it the fisher, the harbour.
MC: Oh, yeah. Where you’d moved out of.
CVR: Yeah. So, we were allowed, my brother and I via the permit to go to school.
MC: To school.
CVR: Yeah. Till people slowly went back, you know, to their own houses or other houses. But my parents were not allowed to go there yet. You know, it was all a very slow process. Because I was there I said, and I knew my mother wanted to go back but not to open a shop anymore. My brother and I didn’t want them to do that because of all the previous long opening times, you know. And I thought hold on. I go the first streets when I cross that border where we have the permit and there was a canal as well. So the first street I went in it is called Zwolestraat where we lived later. And I just knocked on the doors where people were already living. A couple here. A couple there. And when I knocked on the door can you imagine a young girl like that doing that? People opened the door and thought what’s that? They were still frightened. And I said, ‘Can you tell me the name of your landlord?’ [laughs] And they would just smack the door closed and I thought I won’t give up. And I tried again and I got used to putting my foot in between the door and the side so they couldn’t slam the door on me. And at last one couple, they — and then I explained all of that and they said, ‘Right. We will give you the name of the landlord.’ And I don’t know how I got hold of the keys. I got hold of keys of, in that road to look at houses. And my mother was allowed then to have to look at the houses. Our house, which we started to rent there was the floor open and stuff from the Germans underneath, you know. But we started to live there. And I did that.
MC: So there was still the houses were still owned by these people.
CVR: Landlords I suppose, you know but —
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And then slowly.
MC: I just wondered whether people might have just taken over the houses.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. But there was —
CVR: It must have been chaos. You know.
MC: Yes.
CVR: I don’t know all the ins and outs but slowly people came to live there till everything was ready again and the wood was in the houses. And that place around a corner where the V-1 was launched, you say.
MC: Launched. Yes.
CVR: Launched. Yeah.
MC: Yes.
CVR: That was really very damaged. I’d seen that and my brother wrote about it. About that launching there. Yeah.
MC: Did you see any of the launches?
CVR: No.
MC: Could you see them from where you were?
CVR: The damage. I’ve heard. When we lived in my uncle’s place ‘til the end of the war and we saw the V-1 from the distance.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
CVR: Shot off. And then on New Year’s Eve. One New Year’s Eve. That was the last New Year’s Eve I think, in ’44. We were all together all our family and we still managed to do a little bit together although there was no food. But we still had our own parties with whatever we had. And then suddenly we thought, oh no. Gosh. Another V-1 we saw going up to go to England I suppose. And then suddenly we all went, oh my God. It’s not going. It stops. It will turn. And it turned straight in front of our faces. And the whole family, they were standing there nailed to the floor because we didn’t know where it would land. And I was screaming my head off all the time. Nobody said to shut up because everybody was just, you know. I don’t know the word for it. They were stunned or whatever. And it went down a few streets behind us and a friend of mine, I still have contact with him, he lived there but luckily his house was not in [pause]
MC: Damaged.
CVR: In the damage but loads of other houses and all in the area the windows were, and the glass was everywhere but luckily we were then safe. Not other people unluckily. But quite a few people were killed in that V-1 that came down. So, I can remember that. Looking up. Screaming my head off and I was allowed to do that.
MC: So, when you, obviously the house that you moved into obviously needed rebuilding and —
CVR: Yeah.
MC: New floors.
CVR: Yeah, the wood.
MC: Did you get any assistance with that?
CVR: I think the landlord put all the wood, the wood back. Yeah. And inside my, my parents did everything.
MC: Wood must have been difficult to get hold of anyway.
CVR: Yeah. Yes, but I think it was not too bad and we lived there. And I lived there ‘til I got married. Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
MC: Going back to some of your times during the war. I mean you mentioned things like you were forbidden to listen to radios.
CVR: Oh yes.
MC: And the Germans used to check you. Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. They were all hidden.
MC: Oh yeah.
CVR: All hidden. And as —
MC: You were told to hand them in but you hid them.
CVR: No. No. Hidden. And as soon as the programme with Churchill came on in the evening, 8 o’clock or so all the radios came out, you know and we were listening to it and the start of it, that special sound voom voom voom you know, news from Churchill. So, and then they were hidden again. But we had also to give all our jewellery, bicycles, you name it, we had to give that as well. But about the jewellery I have still have one little brooch left and money as well. Silver money. And that was with Queen Wilhelmina on it of course. And what people did they made jewellery out of the money. The silver money. And I still have one. I still have it.
MC: You talk, you talked about the German bunker. Passing the German bunker.
CVR: Oh God yeah. That was horrific that day. My mother, my brother and I walking home from church and that was just there where the Germans had their bunkers you call them?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. And also, that canal which was contaminated by the Germans. We picked up scabies from that, really bad. Anyway, when we came home from church and we walked past and of course my brother and I looked and then this German bloke got so angry with us and he lifted up his grenade and my mother said, ‘Walk. Walk. Look forward, in front of you. Look. Walk. Walk. Go home. Go home.’ And then my brother still looked around and he went straight into a lamppost and he broke his teeth [laughs] Yeah. But we were terrified because we thought really that bloke would throw the grenade. Luckily he didn’t.
MC: Very frightening.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. I mean you mentioned about a Jewish family down the road. Obviously there was a lot of Jews around and of course they wore the —
CVR: My little friend you are talking about. When we still lived in, in the occupied place before we had to leave. I don’t know if you mean that one. My best friend around the corner Greetje Stellamon.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Never forget her name. I can cry now because I don’t know what happened to her and then at that time my mum on the corner with her shop and Greetje just living a few houses further and the whole family had to wear the stars. And my mother was so terrified because if it was spotted that I had a Jewish friend God knows what would have happened to me and my family. So my mother, bless her she had to forbid to get on with Greetje Stellamon and I suppose she had a talk with the family. And I never never went along with her any more. We just ignored the whole Jewish family because my mother, and my father I suppose were terrified that something would happen to them. And now yet and I have contact with Thea Coleman, this Jewish woman who survived the war as well and I haven’t talked about it with her. Sometimes I phone her and she phones me. She was there on the 21st of April but her story is also fantastic. She wrote it in a different way because she had to hide and she was twelve years old as well. And she had to go from one place to the other. She had, oh she had not a very nice childhood. In a certain way worse than I but she survived and now the strange thing is, Mike when we have been talking to each other we lived always close together in the occupied area. Never to know each other. We know all the roads and after the wartime she moved into a road straight behind the road where I lived, Zwolsestraat. She lived in Harstenhoekstraat — one street further. She was always close to me in whatever area we lived. We never knew each other. And every time —
MC: You lived that close.
CVR: Every time we come to different solutions. I think her cousin went to the same school as I went. Thea, just in the last three years of the wartime he went to the same school as I went also. And it’s just amazing. Just amazing.
MC: When you lived with your, in the cellar with your family. How many of you were there in the cellar then? Because —
CVR: My mother and my father. Next to them I slept, is three. Then my brother, four. And my cousin, five. And then the maître d who served in the restaurant.
MC: That’s the domestic help you referred to.
CVR: Six. And sometimes if my family could still come over before it got too worse then there was another one. So, about the most was seven or eight but normally five to six. Yeah.
MC: So, did you, you didn’t have any windows in the cellar then?
CVR: Horrible. Because it was low on the ground. We had two windows. If I look up. In my memory there was one there, small window. And there was one there, small window. And then you could just see through the grid. There was a grid in the garden of course from my uncle and aunt’s garden. Just look through the grid up there. And then there was this open place, you know. Just a bricked, bricked hole there. But then the Germans flooded the west of the country. Also as a punishment. The water came in those areas as well. In those holes. And that flooded into the cellar where we lived and every morning we were up to our ankles in the water. And then we got this flea epidemic. I was an expert in catching fleas there. It was absolutely a horrible situation. Yeah.
MC: But you ate, you used to eat upstairs in the restaurant there.
CVR: Well not in the restaurant but in the dining-sitting room of.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You know we were with, with whom we lived there day in day out. We were sitting around a table with this uncle who died who was sitting next to me, you know. Yeah. It was really, really bad. But there was hardly anything you know. And if my aunt still could get hold of something. Especially from my uncle. He was the one who got extra food if he had. I don’t know but being a child if I noticed that there was something in the kitchen, just move that plant away, if there was something in the kitchen from my uncle. She managed one day I remember to make sort of pea soup and if I knew there was nobody around I quickly went to the kitchen and I just stole a few spoons of the soup. Or in the cellar, on the top she had some store or something from oats. Raw oats. And I would put my hand in it and ate a handful of oats. You know.
MC: Yeah. Amazing.
CVR: I stole from the Germans as well.
MC: Did you?
CVR: It’s in there. Because they had potato plants in, in the parks you know and there was, there were always soldiers on guard with their guns and at one point my friends and I decided to steal potatoes, you know. Not telling our parents we went there and one of our group would stand guard for us to warn us if the German guard would come along. So we just pulled out potatoes, you know and we had a plastic or not plastic bag. I don’t know if plastic bags were there then. But in a bag and then one, at one point our guard shouted, ‘Run. Run. Run.’ You know. They never said anything [unclear] we knew we had to run. So we just ran home and I gave my parents these few potatoes. And I was told off by my father. He said, ‘Where did you get them from?’ And I would say, ‘I stole them from the park.’ And he said, ‘You must never steal.’ I remember him saying that honestly or honestly, profoundly. You must never steal. He said, ‘Give the potatoes and I’ll bring them back.’ I thought oh great. But I never saw the potatoes any more and I think we had eaten them that night [laughs] Yeah.
MC: Tell me about your story you told about David and Goliath. The two stoves.
CVR: Oh the two stoves. Yeah. David and Goliath because I told you that David we called the Mayo, Thea in our story knows this as well and she mentioned it at Hemswell Court when the BBC took film there. But that was very dangerous because they had to get that stove going. The David. The Mayo and put in all the stolen pieces of wood all the time to keep warm. And they warmed at the same time and the pan with water because we needed some times hot water and then it happened that my, the poor aunt she pulled the pan with the hot water over her leg. That was absolutely horrendous you know but that’s how we lived every day, you know.
MC: Because that’s where the wood came from. From the houses.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: To fuel the stoves.
CVR: Yeah. Oh people stole everything. Wood. Everywhere around. And then the Goliath. That was in the restaurant still. A huge stove. But that was not used anymore in the end. There was nothing. The restaurant was closed. There was nothing any more.
MC: You talked about the bicycle. Riding to the farms.
CVR: Oh yeah.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. And then often then they came back from the farmers and we had to give our linen, you know. In exchange for food.
MC: Swap it. Exchange it for food.
CVR: And then sometimes people went back on their bicycles. Sometimes without tyres, you know. Just the wheels.
MC: Why did they not have tyres?
CVR: Because if the tyres were finished you couldn’t get any new ones and then, then they came suddenly to a post where the German guards were they had to give everything. The bicycle, all the food stuffs, the lot. They had gone to the farmers for nothing that day.
MC: So the Germans could take the bikes off them.
CVR: Yeah. And the food.
MC: And the food.
CVR: So one day I went with my brother but we were not successful that day, you know. And then my parents were so near to starving as well I thought you know, I go. I knew somebody around the corner and I think he had a chicken farm. Yeah. So I went there and I knocked on these big doors and the doors opened and I put my foot in between there as well so I had learned that already from that time and I told him if, ‘My parents are very ill. They need some food otherwise they’ll die. Can I have a chicken that they can cook it and make some soup of it?’ And he said, ‘No. No.’ That was one of the people who didn’t cooperate. And I said, ‘Oh my father, he always delivers bread here. He has loads of bread,’ it was not true anymore, and I said, ‘I will get you a nice loaf of bread.’ But no. I had to get my foot out of the way. I didn’t get it.
MC: What about clothes? How did you cope with clothes?
CVR: Clothes. You couldn’t get clothes at all any more. And my mum, somehow she got hold of a vest and pants for me. Horrible. Horrible colour. Horrible green. Funny colour. And all straight. No shape in it at all. And God knows how much she paid for it but they were absolutely horrible. So, oh yeah, and what we did as well, people, if the men’s trousers were worn then the women would turn the material. All unravelled and turn the material and from the good pieces they made skirts for themselves or for the children. Yeah. They did that as well. No. There was nothing. I’ll show you the coupons as well, I have.
MC: You’ve got some coupons.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah. See then I go into it. I can talk for hours and my children would say, ‘Mum. Stop your non-stop talking.’ [laughs]
MC: You keep talking.
CVR: Yeah. But I still think again twelve years old. How, how could I remember all that? Now I have to, difficulty remembering other things, you know. The short term memory. It’s still okay but this is better in my memory than anything else. It must have been, made a huge impact.
MC: When you talked about you going to the farm and getting some chicken and that you said that you talked about getting a big, going to the Germans with a big bang.
CVR: Oh. Oh my gosh. If I remember that day. I thought I have to get some food, you know all that time that my parents were ill and my uncle. And there was, on the, on the main street I used to go on there to school if I still could go there in the city and then I thought I’ll go there. I never told my parents anything what I was up to. And I got the largest pan out of the cupboard and I went to this place which used to be called [unclear] And that was a place where they had [pause] it was a milk factory. Yeah. They got the milk from the farmers, you know, from the cows and there they processed the milk. But the Germans had occupied that factory and chucked out all the Dutch people. They, that was for them. Nobody could get anything. And I knew that they were cooking food as well there and I thought I would go there. So there was this German on guard there, you know, with his gun and I said in Dutch then, you know, ‘Could I have some food for my family because they are really very bad at the moment?’ And he got so cross with me and I didn’t go away. I said, ‘Please. Please. Just a little bit.’ And he got so cross with me. Couldn’t get rid of me. And he said something in German which funnily enough I’d picked up a little bit of German and he started shouting at me. I had to go away. And it was the fault of Queen Wilhelmina, ‘That schweinhund,’ he went. You know, you know what schweinhund means. ‘That schweinhund leaving you all to yourselves and just fleeing abroad.’ He said it was her fault and he wouldn’t give me any food and if I would not go away quickly he would just shoot me. And he went like this with his gun. And I’m frightened. I ran with my little legs as quickly as I could. I ran away and I came home. And then I got told off. My parents were mortified that I had done that. It was [unclear] never never ever to do that again.
MC: You got into a bit of trouble with your parents occasionally didn’t you?
CVR: Yeah. And with my brother as long as we could go to school along this big long road we passed a little shop which used to be an ice cream parlour before the war I think. And he tried to do something still for everybody you know. We had to pay a little bit of money. I think a kwartje they called it. Twenty five cents and then I got that, you know from my parents. And maybe later they did it without being paid. They were very good people and they gave us sort of what they called [unclear] and that was a very fluffy, a fluffy bit of, not ice cream but very fluffy stuff. Like foamy stuff and it was either white or pink and we ate that and that filled up our stomachs like anything, you know. And we never knew what it was. And later from my friend in Holland and in the booklet I got to know now that was made of sugar beets. Of the, the moisture, the sap that came from it they used to make that sort of foam in a certain way how they made ice cream in the machines.
MC: A bit like candy floss?
CVR: Yeah. Very light stuff.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: And that filled our stomachs up for an hour or so.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah. That was what we did. Oh gosh and I’m sure, the rumours then but I’m sure we ate some cat and dog as well in the end. Yeah. What do you do?
MC: Yeah.
CVR: You eat rabbits.
MC: That’s right. Yeah.
CVR: And in that situation why not cat and dogs?
MC: You talked about getting bags of grain. When you’d got to sort out the mouse droppings.
CVR: Oh my gosh yeah. You had to sort all these grains out. It was [pause] we sat in the restaurant then. No people came any more. I remember sitting at a table and sort out all this grain and get all the droppings out, you know. And I used to make myself and my cousin Stijnie, a girl, she was a bit older than I, about four years older and we tried to make a sort of cake out of the sugar beet if we could get hold of it. Just put sort of soya sort of milk to get it smaller, or whatever we did. A sort of mincemeat machine, yeah, and tried to make a nice cake of it and make some thick, some [pectin?] in it. And once my uncle came out from the café restaurant to us because he still had, when there was still something to drink, my cousin and I always had to do all the washing up and before also when the food was still there and we got plates and plates for trays and trays full of stuff to wash up, you know. And as soon as that was finished he came with another tray. And then once he came at the back and he settled to how sort of, ‘What the hell are you going to do there?’ And we told him we were trying to make a cake of sugar beets. And oh he was livid. Livid. ‘Who would eat this rubbish you feed to the cattle,’ you know. ‘Stop it.’ But we didn’t stop. We wanted to eat something. Yeah. Oh dear. Crikey. I have so much information now. It’s amazing that I got straight into it. This one I have to have translated because it’s so interesting. I tried to find it because it tells me so much of, about the gamellans. If you have time.
[Pause. Shuffling paper]
CVR: Here we are, coming down. The parachutes. It’s a huge thing, you see.
MC: Yeah. After the war, yeah —
CVR: Yeah.
MC: And you talked about bread from Sweden arriving.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah. The flour came, you know first, in the centres.
MC: And you did your own baking.
CVR: Hmmn?
MC: You did used to —
CVR: No. it was baked for us in the bakeries.
MC: Right.
CVR: Yeah. But he had such a, every day he wrote what happened. How many —
MC: That was your brother.
CVR: What is luchtalarm again. When the alarm goes off again. That there is a bombing.
MC: A siren.
CVR: Siren. Yeah. Six sirens. Nine V-1s came over. Every day he said the same. Three V-1s. The next day twelve sirens. What we ate these days. Soup. Soup again. Or something else you know. It’s amazing what he wrote down for every day that happened. Half a litre of soup. Eight V-1s.[pause] Amazing. Amazing. His story is so different from mine but so interesting.
MC: So after, at the time of the liberation, obviously the liberating army came through.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: You saw the tanks.
CVR: Yeah. Yes. That was the day I was so astonished, you know. We all went to look when the tanks came in with the soldiers. And loads of then older teenagers, I didn’t do it, I was too young but all the older girls, you know they were mad about all these soldiers. Climbing up and kissing them and throwing flowers everywhere and, you know. And then after that all the girls who had been girlfriends of the Germans soldiers they had come along you know, run the gauntlet and before that all their hair was shorn off. They had to do that. I can remember that. I thought, yeah. You know, it was a sort of revenge. What, what use is it? But —
MC: But that was their only punishment.
CVR: Yeah. You can imagine how people reacted after that. But they left them alone. Nobody was attacked. Nothing.
MC: You talked about the canal.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: Being a tank wall.
CVR: Oh yeah.
MC: It was contaminated.
CVR: That was contaminated. And so all we children we jumped in it. We wanted to swim and, you know we felt free to do what we wanted to do. So all these children they got a skin [pause]
MC: Scabies.
CVR: Scabies yeah. Skin trouble. Scabies. So from the, the yeah sort of NHS [unclear] you know a service to look after people if they become ill and all that. And send doctors out to check and examine. And so all the children, including my brother and I were diagnosed with scabies. And my parents were given a sort of soap. Maybe I wrote about it. I can’t come up with it now. And in the evening they had to wash us totally and then put all this certain soap, I think there was sulphur in it. Yeah. A sort of sulphur soap. They had to cover us from top to bottom in this sulphur soap and then sleep in it the whole night. And then the next morning my parents were advised to make a bath ready. We didn’t have a bath. We had a sink top you know, with hot water. You had to sit in it. And then scrub us with a hard brush but my mum couldn’t do that, you know. So she washed us properly and maybe rubbed us very hard. And then I think that would do the trick and I think it did the trick but so many children had that and they were told all the stuff we had slept in that night we had to bring to a certain centre and it would be burned in an incinerator. I don’t know what my mother did but maybe she washed herself. I don’t know what she did.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: So that was at the end. After the war. At the end of the war was it?
CVR: Yeah.
MC: That was the end of the war.
CVR: Yeah.
MC: So did things get back to normal fairly quickly or —?
CVR: No. Not quickly. It took quite some time. A few months to get everything back to a sort of normality because there was still not food enough. That had to come in slowly, you know. It took a long time. Like you hear now in all the other countries where things happen. It takes time as well
MC: It does take time. Yeah.
CVR: People complain sometimes. Why not do things directly. It can’t be done. It has to be organized.
MC: So the [pause] your parents, your father carried on working but your mother didn’t. Where did you finish your schooling then?
CVR: Let me think. In 1948, I still know the name of the Grammar School where I went to then [Paulussbaustraat?] My brother and I went. And I finished my schooling in 1948. And, yeah. What did I want to do then? I was then sixteen. Nearly seventeen. And I wanted to go into nursing but nobody accepted me. I had to be eighteen. So I thought what shall I do then? And I thought hold on they take on younger people in centres where there is tuberculosis. In sanatoria. So I went there without telling. You know, I just went there. My parents. And went there and could I become a nurse there. I don’t know what the outcome was there then but then I came home. I told that I had did that. I had done that and my father went livid. I’d forgotten all about his first marriage and losing his wife and child from tuberculosis. And I can still remember him sitting opposite me and my mum was always very sweet and calm and all that. She didn’t know what to do. To say. And my father went, he was a good man but if he would get angry, and the words he said then sometimes, oh. But he said, ‘If you go ahead with that,’ I can still remember him sitting there, ‘If you go ahead with that I’ll break both your legs.’ He said that to me. And, and then I thought oh my gosh, you know. So the next day I thought I want to keep my legs so never went ahead with it.[laughs] And then, you know I thought, yeah what do I do then and then I decided to go to a domestic science school. And that was a course for two years but because there were only four students who wanted to do this special domestic science course that would last two years and they said we can take you on only for one year because we can’t keep you on for the second year. Only four. So you have to do this course, that was said to the four of us, in one year. It will be hard work but you will have to do it. Otherwise forget it. So we did it. You know. We did it in one year and then my father offered to me, he said, ‘Why don’t you stay on or apply for a course to be a teacher in cookery.’ Cooking. And I said, ‘No. I don’t want to do that.’ I thought I had to stay on in that school for a start. And the director Der Theresa, the woman, I didn’t like her at all. She was always caked in makeup and she was never very friendly. The teachers were fine and I thought no I don’t want to be in her school any more so I said no. And then later I thought how would he have paid for it? My father. I had no idea how he would have done that. Anyway, I said, ‘No. I don’t want to do that.’ And then I started applying for jobs. Loads of jobs. I wanted to be a midwife. I wanted to be a stewardess. I wanted to be a social carer. I wanted to be going on in dancing. I loved dancing and still, until two years ago I still did, tried to do the can-can. On my eightieth birthday I did a can-can. And I invited loads of people from church and U3A and they still talk about it. I do the swimming. I did a can-can. Anyway, I wanted to do that in performances. You know, theatre stuff. Nothing worked. I applied for a job for checking washing machines. Go in to that what was the best washing machine and things. The most silly things I did. Never got going. And then in the end I thought hold on I can apply with a steel company in the Hague. [Roopervandervoort?] a very famous steel company. And I have to earn money. My parents said, ‘You have to start somewhere. You have to earn money.’ Meanwhile I had finished my grammar school you know and I had got my diplomas and all that and my diploma from the Domestic Science School and then so I started to work for the steel company. And that was okay. I got my salary you know and worked from nine to five. And I didn’t like working from nine to five and I thought what shall I do now and the director of the steel company suddenly said, ‘Would you like to come with me for a week to Rotterdam,’ to the same company to set up a sort of system I did already in the Hague. And I said, ‘Okay fine.’ So he picked me up and he had a beautiful Oldsmobile. Went to Rotterdam and did that but in that time I had a boyfriend. He dumped me and I was crying every morning and this director said, ‘What’s wrong with you?’ I told him. I was okay in the daytime but oh that affected me so much. Anyway, I thought I’m fed up with this nine to five job. I want to do something else. You know what I did then? I applied to work for the police headquarters in the Hague. And I was accepted.
MC: Yeah.
CVR: As a telephonist telexist but that involved working different shifts which I loved. Night or day. Or Sundays. Easter. Christmas. I didn’t care. That was what I liked. On call sometimes. So I worked there till I met my husband. And I still worked on and we married and I still worked on but then I was expecting a baby and I had a miscarriage and then you know then I had to give up.
MC: So when were you married?
CVR: In 1954 I was married. In November. 20th of November ‘54. Yeah. And then after this miscarriage I was expecting soon again and I got with twins.
MC: Bless you.
CVR: Amazing. Yeah. So but I never went back to work then anymore. It was impossible. Impossible. Yeah.
MC: So when did you come to the UK then?
CVR: In 1966 when my husband worked for Esso. First for [unclear] and then for Esso. And then he was asked by an American boss of, in America then of Esso or that was not ExxonMobil yet I think. Anyway, he came over and he had talks with my husband and my husband [pause] yeah yeah he said would, would he be interested in a job in England? In London. To set up an office there for Esso. Although there was already Esso in I think it was Mund Street, someplace. Anyway, so we thought it over and we had my four small children and I was worried stiff about my children to move to England. And my husband said as well you know if he come to do it it will be very challenging and an adventure. He said, ‘If I say no I will be ever stuck after my bureau in the Hague. I will be never asked again for something.’ And anyway this, this person, the American, he was called Tom Kennedy and he came over again. And I had had talks with my English teacher. That year before we decided to move I went to conversation lessons in English. I loved it. And I said to her, I said, ‘We are offered this job but I’m scared stiff about my children.’ She said, ‘What? Don’t worry about your children. They will be fine. They will pick it up very soon.’ And she said, ‘And in your case don’t worry.’ Because at the Grammar School I had to learn, apart from Dutch, French, German and English. So I had three basic languages. She said, ‘Don’t. Don’t worry,’ you know. ‘Go to a little school there and you will be fine. Don’t worry.’ So then in the end when Tom came over and he invited us to go to Rotterdam on this sort of tower that went around like in London as well. We had a dinner and talks and he took us out on a canal tour with the children as well. And then in the end without children he invited us again and he said, ‘Have you come to a decision?’ And he said, ‘You know what? I think you are nearly there. I’ll leave you on your own here. Just have a coffee after your dinner. I’ll go away. I’ll come back and see what you have decided in the end because I have to know now.’ And he came back and my husband and I talked about it for five minutes and we said, ‘We’ll do it. We’ll do it.’ So we told him and he said fine. And from then on you know we moved to England in ‘66 with our four small children. And we decided on a house in Caterham in Surrey. But the people still lived there so they had to move out. They wanted to sell the house. And for the time being we were in Selsdon Park Hotel. Do you know Selsdon Park Hotel?
MC: No.
CVR: No. In Surrey. Anyway, a lovely hotel and we, we lived there a couple of weeks with the children until we knew we could settle in a house. And so it went. And we came without a penny because you know we didn’t have a lot of money when we lived in Holland. And then four children. And, and so we had to have a loan. A sort of mortgage. A bridging loan it was called. Yeah. And so we came without a penny and then we decided to get rid of this bridging loan and the mortgage as soon as he could and of course because he got this job in England he was paid well so we paid lots and lots off every month. What we could. And in eleven years we had done it. Yeah. We did it.
MC: Very good.
CVR: Really great. Yeah.
MC: So you’ve been in England ever since.
CVR: Yeah. On the day we, we moved that was on the Cup Final day. The last day of July ’66 was it?
MC: I think it was. Yes.
CVR: In July. And my taxi driver who picked us up from the airport and took us to the Selsdon Park Hotel he had a face like that. And he said, ‘You know what. Because I have to take you to the Selsdon Park Hotel I’ve missed the whole Cup Final now,’ [laughs] I’ve never forgotten that. Yeah.
MC: Well that’s a lovely story that Coby. It’s a lovely story.
CVR: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: And I thank you very much.
CVR: Yeah. And again I hope I didn’t keep you up too long.
MC: No. no. no. as long as you can talk we can record.
CVR: Yeah.
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Interview with Coby Van Riel
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Mike Connock
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-08-25
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AVanRielJF150825
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01:20:26 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Netherlands
Sweden
Netherlands--Hague
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1943
1944
1945
1948
Description
An account of the resource
Coby Van Riel was a child of about six when the Germans invaded Holland. She lived in a fishing port area of The Hague where her father had a number of jobs to make ends meet in the difficult days before the war and her mother ran a chemist shop. She witnessed the German parachutists landing and the bombing of the area and saw the injuries to the civilian population some of whom went to her mother’s shop for help. When the Germans took over the area the family were forced to move out of their house and give up the shop and they went to live in the cellar of her uncle’s café. She recalls the round-up of civilians sent to forced labour and of the local Jewish population sent to Concentration Camps. She talks about what it was like for civilians to live in the occupation and recalls the time she was asked to carry a secret message in the sole of her shoe. She talks of the Hunger Winter when people began to starve. She lost her uncle to starvation and her parents were very close to death when help finally arrived. She witnessed Operation Manna and expresses her gratitude for the efforts of the RAF. She also recalls seeing V-1 rockets and seeing the damage caused by them.
anti-Semitism
bombing
childhood in wartime
forced labour
Holocaust
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Resistance
round-up
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1303/18066/PDeverellCRE1901.2.jpg
950416d1c0bc8ddd5d7e83d96d0bcca5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1303/18066/ADeverellCRE190722.2.mp3
011ccd66271ee51e3abd56830e71714f
Dublin Core
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Title
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Deverell, Colin
Colin Ray Edwin Deverell
C R E Deverell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Colin Deverell (b. 1923). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-07-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Deverell, CRE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I am interviewing Colin Deverell today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Colin’s home and it is Monday the 22nd of July 2019, and thank you Colin for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present is Colin’s daughter, Liz. So Colin perhaps we could start by you telling me about where and when you were born and something about your family please.
CD: Yes, well I was born in Thornton Heath, Croydon, on the 28th of November 1923, at number 13 Camden Way. It was a council house. I had a father who was on the buses as an inspector and a mother who worked jolly hard at home doing the washing and everything else in those days. I went to school locally, Elementary school, Ingram Road, that was quite close. It was quite a good school actually. And later on, I failed, I have to say I failed the grammar school, the exam for the grammar school, so I failed that and I went to a secondary school so that was up until I was aged fourteen, when I left. Okay. And then on from there, and on from there what to do as a job. This is the trouble with boys, they didn’t know what they wanted to do you see, but I was very keen on aircraft but at that stage you couldn’t get anywhere with aircraft but I went to, worked at a firm called Oliver Typewriter Company, Oliver typewriters – I have one upstairs actually - and I was making those and that was the best bit of engineering I did really, to learn how to, how to drill through metal, how to put a thread in a hole for a bolt and things like that and stamping out pieces for the typewriter, you know, all the arms that come down, everything like that. So that was, that got me into Imperial Airways, my father worked hard to get me in to Imperial Airways in some way and became a rigger, just an amateur rigger, you know, to start off. Well the reason I’d got there was because I had got all this information from the typewriters, engineering, and I learnt a lot from these aircraft, putting parts into the aircraft, doing this, that and the other, dogsbody, making coffee for the people that worked there, that’s what boys had to do and I watched other engineers soldering wires together and that sort of thing so I learnt from that you see, and that went on, until, well that was all these Handley Page aircraft, big bi-planes with four engines, fixed propellers that didn’t move at all and it flew at about four thousand miles, er four thousand feet at about a hundred and ten, hundred and twenty miles an hour and took two and a half hours to get to Paris. So the steward on board, they had stewards then, cooked them a meal, all of them a meal, they had proper meals. So that was a nice little trip for them at four thousand feet. Well that went on until the war started and I’m afraid it went out of business of course and I was there till about November 1939 and I was told well I’m afraid the apprentice had come to an end, so that was the end of that and I lost my job as well so I had to find something else. I searched round and a lot of little firms at Croydon aerodrome, lot of hangars down there, one of them was called Rollason Aircraft Services, and I went there and yes I got a job there, I was drilling and all sorts of things, working on bi-planes Hawker Hectors, Demons and Audaxes and all obsolete aircraft and that was a wonderful period. Of course the war was on unfortunately. So what happened, by July, July the 10th, 1940 the bombing started on airfields and Biggin Hill and Kempston and Kenley and all these got a bashing. Croydon got it on the 15th of August, 15th of August 1940 at 7pm in the evening. These Messerschmidt 110s came over and there’s a picture up there, and I’m sorry to say, well I was underneath an Airspeed Oxford, it’s a twin-engined wooden aircraft, now we had to get this aircraft out - this was seven o’clock in the evening - we had to get this aircraft out of the hangar by the morning because they were bringing some Hurricanes in that needed repairs, so I was underneath there with another chap doing some wiring when all these bombs came down. At the back of our factory there was a Bourgeois scent factory and about fifty girls got killed there, we lost about, there were sixty were killed or injured in Rollasons, so I was, I mean how lucky can I be [emphasis] to be underneath that aircraft, glass, metal came down, the glass went through the wood, it’s a wooden aircraft, through the wood, into the metal tanks, into the metal tanks to glass [emphasis], thick glass, yeah, so I think I would have died, I wouldn’t have been here if I had been outside. But I don’t know if you want more information on that but thing is, I was covered in muck and glass and stuff, you know, and severely dazed, the place was on fire, the little canteen had been bombed and there was a bottle of Tizer - I found a bottle of Tizer - and took the screw off and poured it over me head and I don’t recommend that to anybody because it’s very sticky! So I had a sticky head, so that’s my Tizer. Anyway, I had a new bike, my father bought me a new bike for two pound seven and sixpence, two pound seven and sixpence, and I thought to myself where’s my bike. Well this, you know it went on through the evening, we were told to go down to the air raid shelter and went down there and after a few minutes told to come up again, because the siren hadn’t gone, you know, before the raid. No one knew it was happening. Nobody, nobody on the gun, cause a Bofurs gun there, nobody there to operate it to shoot aircraft down. Anyway, so I got on, oh I found my bike leaning against the wall and it was all right so I cycled home and at that stage we were living in Thornton Road, Croydon, a little flat there, and when I got round there I saw my mother leaning out of the window actually, cause she knew the place was being bombed you see, she thought I’d have had it. I mean seven o’clock it happened, it was ten o’clock when I got home. Just imagine, how pleased she was to see me. Sadly for her we were bombed, the house was damaged quite badly and she died on Christmas Day in 1940, all the ceiling in the kitchen came down on her head and damaged her brain, so I lost my mother quite early in my life, which was very sad really. Anyway, I moved to another, to a friend of mine in Streatham, and that’s when I went to this new school, and then eventually. Sorry, I’m going back a bit here, but that’s when I left to go to erm, the, oh sorry, when I went, oh the yeah, sorry, after the raid we, they treated me very well – Rollasons - I went back to them, I was very dazed as you can imagine, being bombed as a boy, I was only fifteen and I went to the office they said and well we’ll keep you on pay for the time being and we’ll let you know what happens. So I went home again and eventually we were told we were going to Hanworth aerodrome in Middlesex, funny little aerodrome actually, it was just a sort of almost a private, just grass, you know. They had a few Fairey Battles there. Anyway, we still continued repairing Hurricanes, but they felt there were one or two bi-planes left over from Croydon, they put these on a lorry and I remember sitting in the cockpit of a, I think it was a Hawker Demon and went all the way from Croydon to Hanworth and I was waving to people as I went by like that, [laugh] and I think they thought it was quite funny. [Laugh] I mean it’s all obsolete aircraft. But you know, went back on to Hurricanes. How did we get there, you know, each day, as I was living in Thornton Heath still, in Thornton Road. They had put a coach on for us, from West Croydon station and any of us living there, took a tram for a penny, a tram in those days, for a penny, up to West Croydon station, went over and sat in the coach and it took us to this aerodrome, and at the end of the day they brought us back again, another penny on the tram back home. So that’s how it went on. That went on all the way through 1941 and I thought to myself I want to join, I’m going to join the RAF to get my own back, my mother died, you know, so I had a sort of grievance feeling about all this. So I went to the Croydon, the Croydon agency and they said well, we’re sending chaps down, down the coal mines as well as the army. I said no, no, I’m working on aircraft, I want something to do with aircraft, I want to train as a pilot. Don’t they all, she said, I remember, she said don’t they all! And there was a three month waiting list, okay, for, to train as a pilot, but she said we’re desperately in need of flight engineers, and they did have them on Imperial Airways actually, so it goes back a long way, on four-engined aircraft. So yes, okay, I’ll do that, so within the week I was called up. I was, I went to Lords Cricket ground, that was fun! “Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here” was the sign up there. We picked up all sorts of stuff there and we, we went to, were put into flats, in Viceroy Court which is just outside a zoo, so we could hear the monkeys laughing at us and we were there for a couple weeks, or something like that. We went to Torquay from there, Torquay and did all the physical training: clay pigeon shooting, physical training, running, sports, anything, you know, just to keep our mind off things. But I used to like the running, cross country running as I got used to that, you know. Clay pigeon shooting – I got good at that - swimming I was never very good at, but anyway we’ll pass over that won’t we. One of the things we had to do was go to the quayside there, and there was a place there, it was about the height of the ceiling down to the water. And the idea was to jump off there with a Mae West on you see, and to swim to the shore. I wasn’t very happy about that, you can imagine, though I did it and I managed to get to the shore, so that was fine, but I never have been a very good swimmer. Anyway, so I joined up and within a week I was, sorry, I’m getting muddled here, I went down to Torquay, that’s it, Torquay, and I was there for six weeks, did all these familiar things, the running and the sports and everything else. And then as flight engineers we had to train at St Athan in South Wales and we had to choose between a Lancaster, oh no, Stirling, Lancaster, Halifax and the flying boat. The flying boat, what was that?
CJ: Sunderland?
CD: Sunderland, Sunderland. So it was three, four, yes, there were four we could choose from. I don’t know why, but I liked the idea of the Stirling: it had radial engines, I knew something about those you see, so I decided to train on those. So that’s what I did at St Athan, I trained on these Stirlings. It was, you know, a full day, a really full day, training and I was there, I was there for some weeks, I can’t think how long we were there now. Anyway that was in ‘40, ‘42, yes. The Stirling was a strange sort of aircraft really, it was all electric, all the other aircraft were hydraulic controlled and even the undercarriage you had wiring and a solenoid, which introduced a control there I think you’d call it and the flaps. We had fourteen petrol tanks and this was the flight engineer’s job, he had to look after those, all different amounts in each tank, you can just imagine. It was all levers and wheels, nothing, no buttons you know, like you have today and with the undercarriage the pilot switched the switch down, just as we were coming in to land, to get the undercarriage down. No, let’s start off by going up. So if we, the undercarriage was down obviously, we’d take off, the switch goes, switch up, and a lever up like that and the undercarriage should then come up, if it doesn’t the flight engineer would have to go back to the middle of the aircraft, to the control machine there and you had to wind the undercarriage up and it could be up to five hundred, five hundred turns! Yeah, so that’s, occasionally I did the flight in Stirlings, I had to just start it off. This is where you had to be careful, if you started it off, you see, and you said to the pilot try it now and he switched it up or down, whatever it is, the undercarriage, it would go round and round, and the handle and you’d break your wrist and some flight engineers did break their wrists doing that. So you had to tell the pilot: do not touch that switch till I tell you to! So that’s all, that was the operations. You’re in flight coming down, so switch down, lever down, undercarriage should come down, if not, put the switch back again, go back to the and wind it for a little while, then tell, take your hand away and take the handle out and tell the skipper to switch the, there, switch it down, [unclear] so it was quite a complicated business really, so I don’t think anyone recommended the idea of electric aircraft, but they’re all electric now, aren’t they, everything’s electric, even cars! So that’s what we had to do. It’s a very long, long aircraft. There’s an elsan at the back of the aircraft if you wanted to go to the toilet, but who would want to go all the way back there in the dark to the toilet and then be shot at by a fighter, sitting on the toilet so we never did use it, we found other means. It was fairly slow really, I mean we used to cruise at about a hundred and seventy miles an hour, whereas a Lancaster could do much more than that. And height, height was a problem: we could only go up to ten thousand feet, so anyone going to Tunis, Milan, which they did in the Stirlings, over the mountains of course, so ten thousand feet was about the limit really. And of course you took all the flak, you know, if it was Stirlings and Lancasters, as Lancasters we would be up there, we used to be up at seventeen thousand feet in a Lancaster, and the Stirlings were down here, ten thousand feet and they got loads of flak. They lost more Stirlings, including the number that actually flew, they lost far more Stirlings, so that’s the, that was my choice. We went to Chedburgh for training on the aircraft as the flight engineer, and the pilot and we had the instructors with us, we took off and did all that we needed to do at Chedburgh. And then eventually we were appointed to a squadron and on this occasion it was Wratting Common, which is quite close. I don’t know if you have, no, anyway Wratting Common was the place. Oh! Terrible place, it was all mud, it had been raining like mad and it was all mud everywhere and on one occasion I walked through the WAAF quarters as it was much drier and I was told off, oooh you can’t do that, mustn’t do that, ooh no! Anyway, the first operation we did was to the Frisian Islands, the Frisian Islands off Germany there, dropping mines, that was uneventful, came back. The second trip was to Kiel, Kiel Harbour, yup. And we had mines to go down there because the u-boats were in there, you know, and I think probably they hadn’t got the pens completely ready so I think we probably did knock out some of the submarines there. So that was the second. Now the third trip was to Lorient, l o r i e n t Lorient on the south coast of France. Lorient was a place where they had u-boat pens and they had built them there, and they were very, very thick concrete so how they thought we could, well we would, we dropped mines, we were hoping that the submarines coming back would hit one, I mean that’s what it was all about really, but the bombs wouldn’t have done anything to them. But what happened with us there, we nearly got the chop there, because off the island, I think it was about a mile, two miles, two miles off, there was an island called Isle de Croix, Island of the Cross, and our bomb aimer, he took over you see, when we were going to drop the mines, the idea was to go around the island, but we went over the island, quite low down actually and there were all these Bofors guns there, these, like onions, red hot onions on chains coming up each side of us. How they missed us I do not know! We got over the island safely and then we had to go round the island again, round [emphasis] the island and then drop these mines. But that was a close, very close, but that was what the sprog crews do, the wrong thing, you see, that’s why you always get the chop in the early days, I’m afraid. Now what did I do after that? I think we went on to Lancasters after that, we did a conversion, that was it at Tuddenham or Wratting Common. I’ve got an idea that might have been Wratting Common. The Stirling was taken off because the chop rate was so heavy; they couldn’t continue like that, and it didn’t carry much of a bomb load anyway. So that was the end of that. But of course they were in use quite a bit later on – I’ll tell you about that. So what we do we went on to Lancasters, which was what we really wanted really because we knew it was much faster, it went up much higher, seventeen thousand feet was quite usual, we thought we’d be out of the range of their flak, we hoped, so that was what we did. Actually I went to Derby with my pilot to do I think it was a couple of days on the Merlin engine, so that was quite useful and I did that without going on leave. Some went on leave you see, but I decided I wanted to learn something about the Merlin, so that was done, I came back. What was my first trip, was a – can you switch off a minute?
CJ: So what was your first operation when you’d converted to Lancasters?
CD: Well, it took us by surprise actually, it was Duisburg in the Ruhr. Course that was a very important area round there: they were producing aircraft, tanks and everything else. So on the 25th June ‘43 we went to the Ruhr valley, Duisburg which we knew would be heavily defended. We took off from about ten pm and made for the Dutch coast where we met some flak, fifteen thousand feet ahead of us we could see lots of activity in the air as we approached the Ruhr. The Ruhr was important for Germans because it was full of heavy industry and so we need to prang it hard. We had on board four thousand pound bomb, shaped like a large cannister, and ten one thousand pound bombs and loads of incendiaries. The Pathfinders were dropping their coloured flares and the Master Bomber told us to bomb a certain colour – I can’t remember which colour it was – anyway we were now approaching the target when all hell was let loose as flak and searchlights were each side of us, we could hear shrapnel hitting the sides of our aircraft, this is the dreaded moment as the skipper opened the bomb doors, at this stage we were unable to manoeuvre: we just had to keep straight and pray. Skipper says to our two gunners, Dave Maver and Ronnie Pritchard, watch out for any night fighters, not that we could do much about it at this stage. The bomb aimer now took over: left, left, steady, right, steady, at this stage the chewing of gum was speeding up, it was sheer terror. Bombs gone says Epi, our bomb aimer. Skipper closes bomb doors and our chewing reduced in intensity. Our pilot banks to starboard and loses height to get out of the way of searchlights and flak, this is another time when night fighters are looking for us. Our navigator gives a new course for the Dutch coast, but we do a dog leg, zigzags to avoid the enemy fighters. We were watching aircraft going down in flames which makes us all a bit nervy, well it’s not like a holiday flight to Tenerife is it! - I said in brackets - We saw a small aircraft to port and a bit above us but we did not think it had been, had seen, had seen us, this was a German aircraft we thought because just twin engines but then he suddenly disappeared, we were in thick cloud and it was raining. Let’s hope we don’t collide with another aircraft. As for me as flight engineer, I was trying to keep a fuel log in the dark and with all the activity going on it was not easy. I kept a note of throttle changes because that makes all the difference to the amount of fuel one uses, plus temperature outside at our height. As we had eight – I’ve got fourteen – as we had eight [emphasis] tanks I didn’t want one to go dry, causing an engine to stop and possibly create an air lock in the system: my name would have been mud. I also kept control of the engines in orders from my skipper. I’m able to tell you that we got back safely to base and I found out later that my petrol calculations were just about right, we landed back at four thirty am, that was six and a half hours. Just over four hundred Lancs and Halifaxes took part and we lost six point one percent of the force, twenty five aircraft. Later we understood that reconnaissance had shown that much of the industry in Duisburg had been destroyed. We lost one aircraft on our squadron. On 27th of June we were due to go to Cologne, so, on 27th June 1943 we were briefed to go to Cologne in the Ruhr, but it was called off at the last moment because of foul weather over target. We briefed again on 28th of June with a slightly different route to try and fool the enemy. Over the Dutch coast the Germans had dropped chandeliers to light up the sky and so we expected to be mauled by the German night fighters. We climbed to eighteen thousand feet hoping to avoid them, but no such luck, a fighter came up on our rear, probably an Me110, a twin-engined fighter. Ronnie, our rear gunner called to the skipper: corkscrew port skip which my pilot did immediately and we went down to ten thousand feet and came up again in the corkscrew to fourteen thousand feet. Tracer bullets had gone just over the top of us at the beginning of the corkscrew, but when we settled down at fourteen thousand feet, we felt we had lost him, a really nasty moment and very nearly the end of us. We pressed on to Cologne and ran in to thick cloud, the Master Bomber told us to bomb a certain colour and we couldn’t see them. we could see some fires below so we dropped out bombs and incendiaries on those fires and hoped for the best. We returned to England mostly in cloud and landed at about five am. We were shocked to learn that forty aircraft failed to return. The next three nights we were on shorter trips to France. Marshalling yards in Paris and a place called Wizernes where they were making these V2s I believe, if I remember rightly and it was heavily defended. Dusseldorf, went to Dusseldorf on 12th of July. Dudsseldorf was another heavily defended place, because all industry, and if you killed people down there, they were probably working in the industry anyway you see. It was a heavily defended town because of the amount of industry there. We went through the usual procedures briefing and a meal et cetera, I think take off was around ten pm. We met flak and searchlights over over France I remember, and even more so as we entered Germany. Our skipper told us, the gunners, to look out for night fighters as they were bound to be operating. Eventually we could see ahead the Pathfinder’s flares and as usual in the Ruhr, a wall flak and searchlights. As flight engineer I had to do several jobs at the same time: keep looking out of the cabin for the position of the searchlights, help the skipper with the engine controls, keep a close watch on the fuel we were using, and write up my log so that I would know when to change the petrol tanks; all this on twelve shillings per day, and as a bonus we were threatened by death at any moment. Ah well, I did volunteer! Yes, one of the raids we went to was Stuttgart, this was another heavily, sorry, have to cut that out, yes, we pressed on to Stuttgart and dropped our bombs on target. We bombed the coloured flares dropped by the Pathfinders, skipper did a sharp turn to starboard and nearly hit another Lancaster, it was only just a few feet away from us, as it climbed in front of us. We climbed to seventeen thousand feet in clear skies when suddenly Ronnie Pritchard, our rear gunner, shouted over the intercon: corkscrew to port skipper and down we went to twelve thousand feet. It was another case of an Me110 was still on our tail, so up we went to starboard and then down again to port. I think we’ve lost him. Another thing, this sort of activity was not good for ones stomach! And also try to work out the fuel we’d used, anyway, I did the best I could. But that was a pretty grim trip because we nearly crashed into this other Lancaster. Yeah, yeah. On 17th of August 1943 we were given a very important mission. Apparently our spy planes had detected some rockets at a place called Peenemunde, in northern Germany. It had been known for some time that the Germans had been producing hard water at Peenemunde, which is used in atomic weapons, but of course these weapons had not been produced by any nation at that time. But the future would have looked bleak if they had been able to carry on their research, the powers that he, told Bomber Harris, oh the powers that be that he had told Bomber Harris that Peenemunde must be obliterated. Almost six hundred bombers, almost six hundred bombers would take part and we expected heavy losses as we felt it must be defended. We flew by night of course, and the flight arrangement was as follows: two hundred Stirlings would go in first at eight thousand feet, followed by four hundred Lancasters at ten thousand feet. The Pathfinders would be there first, dropping flares to light up the area. By good fortune a feint was going on over Berlin, with twin engine Mosquitoes, the Germans thought Berlin therefore was the main target and sent their night fighters there. The Stirlings went in to Peenemunde and dropped their bombs, and then turned for home without any losses. the German night fighters realised their mistake and turned back to Peenemunde just as the Lancasters went in to bomb the place. I remember a great deal of chaos, as aircraft after aircraft was shot down. It was, [sigh] it was very unnerving to see so many Lancasters on fire, we dropped our bombs on the target and fled the area and got back safely. Forty Lancasters - actually it was forty two – forty two Lancasters were shot down that night, ten percent of the force. Analysis later showed the bombing effort had been reasonably successful. Spy planes would keep an eye on the place in case another attack was necessary. My squadron lost one Lancaster out of twelve despatched. On the next night we were on the flight list again. At briefing found we found subject was Bremen. Well, that was fairly cushy compared with Peenemunde. Yeah. At Peenemunde was a very important town for us to destroy because the V2s they were producing would have been ready before D-Day, and you can just imagine what would have happened if that had happened: the D-day wouldn’t have been possible, you know. As it was, on D-Day one never saw a German fighter because they mostly had been destroyed, but Peenemunde was the, the town to get, we never had to go back there because they moved the whole lot to somewhere else in Germany which we kept bombing later on, but that was the most important one for D-Day, was Peenemunde, okay. At a briefing on the 23rd of August 1943, we learned the worst, yes, the worst, yes, it was to be the first big night raid on Berlin, by six hundred and fifty Lancasters and Halifaxes. Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering, had said that no foreign aircraft would be allowed to fly over the capital of the Third Reich, well we’ll have to see if he’s right. We were all rather depressed about this operation as we knew that Berlin was considered to be the most heavily defended of all German towns. We were taken out to the aircraft at nine pm and I remember we sat around the aircraft waiting for start up time and nobody hardly spoke a word. We took off at nine thirty pm and we would be amongst the first wave into the attack. Berlin’s thirty five mile area was dotted with lights, so that it was hard to distinguish the bursts of anti-aircraft shells below from the coloured markers dropped by the Pathfinders. The first thing we had to do was fly through a wall of searchlights, hundreds [emphasis] of them in colours and clusters. Behind all that was an even fiercer light glowing red, green and blue and over there millions of flares hanging in the sky, A huge mass of fires below. If this is Hell, then I have been there. Flak is bursting all around us at fifteen thousand feet, there is one comfort, and that is not hearing the shells bursting outside because of the roar of the four Merlin engines. We flew on and it was like running straight into the most gigantic display of soundless fireworks in the world. The searchlights are coming nearer now all the time. As one cone split then it comes together again. They seem to splay out then stop, then come together again and as they do there’s a Lancaster right in the centre. Skipper puts the nose down, more power he asks, and I increase the throttle and we are pelting along at a furious rate as we are coming out of the searchlight belt more flak is coming up from the minor defences. A huge explosion near our aircraft: it shakes like mad. Skipper asks everybody to report that they are okay. I thought that the aircraft must have been hit somewhere but everything seemed to be working as far as I could tell: engine revs okay, oil pressure okay, petrol gauge okay. Would we get out of this hell alive? Hello skipper, navigator here, half a minute to dropping zone, okay says skipper, bomb doors open, bomb aimer now takes over, okay, steady, right a bit, bombs gone, bomb doors closed, keep weaving skipper, lots of flak coming up, I tell him, going to starboard something hits us, but we don’t know what or where. I report to skipper that a Jerry fighter has just passed over us from port to starboard, our mid-upper gunner also reported a fighter, we keep going out of the main area of searchlights. I take a look at the furious fires below and masses of flak and Pathfinder flares, a mass of other Lancasters and other Halifaxes has to get through. Looking back we can see aircraft going down in flames, thank god we are out of the main firestorm I say to myself. Skipper through the intercom tells everyone to watch out for night fighters as they are bound to be active. I give my log a good check in as we couldn’t be short of fuel at this stage, but everything seems to be okay, the oil pressure was a bit low on two starboard engines, I wondered if flak had damaged them. I report this to our skipper, keep an eye on it he said. Away back over the Baltic, so different to the way we came. There seemed to be flak coming up from all over the place so we are not out of trouble. We knew there were fighters about as they were dropping flares. Suddenly Ronnie, our rear gunner said corkscrew starboard skip, down we went and I fell, I fell out of my seat and hit my head and was stunned for a bit. Up we came to port as tracer skimmed the side of our aircraft, Ronnie took a pot at the German fighter but I don’t think he hit him. We levelled out at eight thousand feet and we were now in cloud and we stayed in it to dodge the fighter. We came out of the cloud over the Channel, oil pressures on starboard engines were getting too low, so it was decided to land at Woodbridge, just on the border of Suffolk, it had a long runway for situations like ours. We landed at five fifteen am after a horrendous night. I thought that Bomber Harris might well obliterate Bomber Command as well as Berlin! Our aircraft had been damaged by flak, including two engines so it was unserviceable. We were taken by coach back to, was this, this is where we went wrong, this is says Wratting Common but it should be Tuddenham I think. The squadron lost another Lancaster, a total of fifty eight heavy bombers were lost that night, fifty eight, and so ended our first trip, and our last I hoped, to Berlin, the big city as it was called. Our aircraft would be out of service for a week, but we were given a new aircraft that had not been flown on ops. Our wireless operator Charlie Higgins didn’t like the idea as he was terribly superstitious, hence the rabbit’s foot in my pocket. Charlie had to come round to the new aircraft, or leave the crew. He came round to it. Right, now this is the crunch, our thirtieth and final operation, but what a momentous time it has been over the last few months: a lot of airmen have died. Once again we were briefed on 28th of August and we were out at the aircraft when it was cancelled. And so back to the de-clothing area, this was always very stressful and our nerves start to give us trouble by a slight shake and very noticeable when holding a cigarette. The 29th of August 1943 was to be our last trip and hopefully we will return. Briefing was at four pm, we all sat down and then stood up when the Group Captain entered the briefing room at four pm. The door then locked, he stood on the stage and said Captain answer for your crew, and beware if you’re not there, you’re in trouble, anybody not there would be in dead trouble. The curtain pulled back and lo and behold the target was Stettin, on the Baltic, a very long trip and so I’ll have to be very accurate with my petrol calculations. Stettin was a large port and apparently the Germans were bringing men and war weapons back from Norway to put to the war in Russia. The idea was for us to blast the ships in port and anything we saw moving. It was going to be a long night with full petrol tanks and loads of bombs, or, no incendiaries, just bombs. Take off at nine pm. Stettin was partly on the way to Berlin, but a bit further to the west and a somewhat longer trip, we hoped the Germans would think we were going to Berlin and send their fighters there. We went through thick cloud at first, but over Germany it was clear skies and we had to watch out for the German fighters. We got caught in searchlights but the skipper managed to weave and corkscrew out of them. Heavy flak, shrapnel shells hitting our aircraft, we dropped our bombs by the reflection of the water, so there were no Pathfinders for this raid. We managed to leave the area safely and flew into the cloud again where it was pouring with rain, better than being attacked by a night fighter when flying in in clear skies. Sadly our Squadron Commander, Squadron Leader Warner failed to return from this op to Stettin, a total of twenty three Lancasters were lost out of three hundred and fifty on the operation. And now my crew sort of split up for a time here, we went on two week post-operational leave. Now, after, I returned to Scotland after some leave and did several weeks as flight engineer instructor. One day, my friend Jack Ralph, a pilot, came up to me and said as his flight engineer had been injured, by shrapnel I believe, would I be willing to do, to be his flight engineer as he only had four operations to do. Jack was somewhat older then I was at the time as he was thirty and I was still nineteen and he had a lot of experience and had earned the DFC. Without thinking of the possible consequences, I said yes. Being so young I didn’t really see the dangers ahead, anyway that was my decision. Jack’s crew accepted me okay and that was the main thing. My first operational briefing with Jack was on 23rd of September 1943, Mannheim, a big industrial town, well in, that was the usual thing; fifteen Lancasters were lost there, and then Hannover, I think we lost an aircraft there. Turn it off just a moment. At this stage in my tour of operations – thirty two to date - I was becoming decidedly jittery, a nervous twitch perhaps. I felt I was getting to the end of what I could take, nevertheless I never showed this in my behaviour, but it was just that I felt it inwardly, after all I was still only nineteen years old. Us bomber chaps often wrote poetry, some have been published and at this moment I would like to quote one of mine. I found it amongst my papers a few years ago, and it was written by me during my tour of operations in 1943. It might seem a bit naive now but it was how I felt at the time. Viz: “What think you airman when you fly so proudly there in heaven’s sky? Do you exalt in your great might as you go onwards through the night? I think of death beneath my wings, and of the load my bomber brings. My spirit flinches from the thought, that of this carnage may come naught. I pray that soon the day will come when at the rising of the sun that man will offer man his hand and peace prevail throughout the land. I face up to my moments’ task, but three things God, of thee I ask: please help my flesh and mind to stand the strain and protect me Lord this once again. And if this cannot be your plan, give me the strength to die a man.” So that. I wasn’t sleeping too well at this particular time, and I had a sort of of foreboding about the future, it was only one more operation to do, strange how the mind works. On the morning of 18th of November, I woke in the usual way and had breakfast. I went to the aircraft and had a chat with the ground engineers. No problem with the engines, there were full tanks, two thousand one hundred and forty gallons and full bomb load. In fact I worked out that our full weight would be way [emphasis] above what it should be, but it was often like that. No chance of survival if we had engine failure on take off. Briefing was at four pm where we found that the target would be Stettin again, on the Baltic coast, a long hard journey ahead as you would know from above. I had been there before. Stettin was a very important town for Germany because it was the embarking point to Norway. Stettin was heavily defended by guns, searchlights and night fighters. At the briefing we found out that we were to use new tactics by flying low over the North Sea, under German radar with a moonlight night and then to sweep across Denmark and up to the Swedish coast and then down to Stettin, hopefully we were told we would hit Stettin from a different angle and take the Germans by surprise. As we left the briefing Jack said to me let’s hope they are right! Take off at nine pm. Fourteen Lancasters from our squadron would take part. We had our supper in the usual way and collected our rations: chocolate and chewing gum. We then collected our flying clothes, harness and parachute. The padre was there to wish us well and safe return. Well that was something to help me anyway. We were taken to the aircraft in the liberty van, as we called it, would take us in to Newmarket, it took us in to Newmarket when we were not flying. We got ourselves into the aircraft and made sure everything was in order. The skipper and I did what we called pre-flight checks, as nothing was left to chance. A very light was fired from the caravan at the end of the runway for take off. We queued up and then our turn came. Skipper opened up the throttles and then I took over to giving him full power as we were overloaded, we sped down the runway, hoping we would make it into the air-and we did. Skipper pulled the aircraft off the ground and did a circuit of the aerodrome, before speeding off and crossing at Cromer and then over the North Sea. We flew at five hundred feet towards Denmark. As we crossed the Danish coast e-boats were firing at us but fortunately missed. We were now on the way to Stettin, we saw one Lancaster crash into a windmill because it much too low. Before I continue I must mention something about Stettin. This town manufactured consumer goods, including cosmetics. At the end of 1943, there were still six million Germans employed in consumer industries. The Armament Minister, Albert Speer, his efforts to cut back consumer output were repeatedly frustrated by Hitler, personal veto. Eva Braun intervened to block an order banning permanent waves and manufacture of cosmetics. Apparently Hitler was so anxious to maintain living standards. Anyway back to our flight. After leaving Denmark we had to climb to fifteen thousand feet, because we were approaching the Swedish coast and they were neutral as far as war was concerned. We were using our new radar equipment – H2S – so our navigator was able to pick up the town of Stettin. We flew over the southern tip of Sweden and apparently the authorities complained about this to Churchill through the Swedish Embassy. We now flew south and I could see heavy flak ahead so I knew we would be in for a pasting. We could see the Pathfinders were there this time. flares and the Master Bomber was telling us to bomb a certain coloured flares. Suddenly we got caught in two cones of searchlights, but skipper Jack Ralph acted quickly and down we went to starboard and we escaped. But was a close run thing again. Flak was bursting all around. We dropped bombs okay on a mass of flames below us. We left the target area which looked like hell below. After a short time the flak seemed to quieten, so we knew night fighters were in the area. Suddenly a loud shout from rear gunner on the intercom, corkscrew port skipper, and down we went, but unfortunately the Messerschmidt 110 night fighter caught us underneath our aircraft. The tracer bullets through, ripped through the underbelly and caught our port inner engine, which caught fire. We also had a fire in the fuselage, just beyond the mid upper gunner. The hydraulic oil that feeds the turret had spilled into the fuselage and that was what was on fire. The turret in fact became useless. Skipper had brought the aircraft out of the corkscrew and levelled off at about eight thousand feet. The fighter did not follow us down. So, what were our problems at this stage of our flight? A – port inner engine on fire. B – fire in the fuselage. C – what damage had been done underneath us? D – mid upper turret not now working. C, sorry, E – losing height and another three and a half hours to home base. F – outside temperature minus forty degrees centigrade possibly too cold to bale out. G – if we are attacked again no chance of survival on three engines. H – have we enough fuel to get home? So the action we took was this: 1 – my skipper feathered the propeller on the duff engine. He operated the fire extinguisher in the engine fortunately the fire went out. All this has to be done within seconds of course. I attached an oxygen bottle and my mask and took a fire extinguisher with me. I found my way down the fuselage to the fire, which was looking quite fierce, especially everywhere was dark. I connected up my intercom and told skipper what I had found. Should we bale out he said? No, I said I think I can put the fire out – [wry chuckle] I had not brought my parachute with me from my position by the pilot! It was stacked up there. I didn’t think I had any chance of survival if the fuselage broke up anyway. Anyway I played the extinguisher on to the fire but it didn’t all go out. The aircraft was full of smoke but fortunately we all had our masks on and I used my official goggles for my eyes. There was some tarpaulin or something nearby and so I placed it on the fire but some of the flames shot up and I burnt both of my hands. I struggled with the tarpaulin and the fire went out. My hands were very painful though as you can imagine, but I wondered at that time whether the airframe had been weakened by the heat. I told the skipper what I had done and what I had, and that I had painful hands. Thank god you have put it out, he said. I crawled back to my station by the pilot. He was trying to keep the aircraft at eight thousand feet, we were then on three engines. Somehow or another I had to write my log to see how much petrol we had left. The navigator said he would be back at base, we would be back at base in three and three quarter hours, keeping in mind that the aircraft was slower on three engines, but of course only three engines were burning fuel. I worked out that our speed at that time, our height and more propeller revolutions and no more corkscrewing we would have thirty minutes fuel left on landing. My hands were now very painful but there was nothing I could do about it as we had no creams to put on them or water to plunge them in to. I kept thinking to myself, why did I volunteer for another four operations? Well, here we go, back to base. We were at eight thousand feet and flying through thick cloud and it is raining hard, we are all wearing our masks and goggles as there was still a lot of smoke in the aircraft. I wondered if any damage had been done to the aircraft framework. Was it weakened in any way? Best not to be negative, I must be positive about getting us back to base. The skipper was aware of the fuel situation, and kept the engine power to a minimum, keeping in mind that we only had three engines working. After two hours we came out of the thick cloud and all the buffeting, we were now over Holland and we could see lots of flak near the coast, so we needed to avoid that. A big aircraft flew near us and we thought it was another Lancaster, we hoped. Our navigator picked up a couple of towns on the new radar H2S, very useful because we couldn’t see anything below due to haze. I checked the fuel situation but it was difficult writing as my hands were so painful. The navigator told the skipper and myself that with our speed and outside wind we would be at base at about one hour forty five minutes. I began to sweat at that bit of information as it was longer than he had given some time before. Anyway, I worked out my fuel usage and then told my skipper that we had two hours twenty minutes fuel left so we should make it okay if something, if nothing else happened. But fortunately nothing else did happen, we got through the flak on the coast of Holland, and we were now over the North Sea headed for England and hopefully safety. Skipper got in touch with control, with the control on my squadron and told them of our situation. Would the wheels come down? We still didn’t know. Skipper was given emergency landing procedures so we crossed the East Anglian coast. We operated the landing gear and it came down okay and locked itself in the down position. In one hour fifty minutes we were down and so my petrol calculations were spot on. At this stage I was beginning to feel a bit faint what with the pain, considerable stress and smoke. When we landed most of the smoke disappeared. I got out of the aircraft at five thirty am, eight and a half hour flight and sat on the ground, exhausted. Skipper Jack Ralph lit me a cigarette, which was wonderful. Suddenly everything everywhere was quiet except for the singing of birds in some nearby trees, the dawn chorus. Two aircraft failed to return to our squadron out of fourteen at take off. Though later we found out that one aircraft had landed at another aerodrome due to damage to their aircraft. Thirty aircraft failed to return all told. I believe four hundred Lancasters went to Stettin. Jack Ralph’s tour off thirty had ended and I had done a total of thirty four operations. I was still only nineteen. What happened to me next? Once I was returned to base, well, I was then taken to the first aid area and my hands were cleaned. I was then taken to the hospital at Bury St Edmunds where I stayed for two days. My hands were treated there and it was found that the burns were first degree and so I wouldn’t need any skin grafts: that was the best news I could receive. I forget what they did, but I remember my hands being wrapped up with bandages and lint. Within three days I was back on the squadron, where I was put on light duties. The bandages were removed after two weeks and I believe, but my hands were very sore and still a bit painful, but being exposed to the air was going to be helpful. After a few weeks I received a call to see the Station Commander at certain time of day. My memory defeats me, I was a bit nervous about this, but of course I went. The Group Captain asked me about my hands, he said that I had done a wonderful job. Now I was told two wonderful things to cheer me up: first offered a commission in the Royal Air Force,, wow, me, an officer in the RAF. He told me all about it and what I would have to do as my extra duties. Also he said to go and see the Station Adjutant as he would give me all the details about buying my uniform and the money. He said I would have to start a bank account once I was an officer, just think of it, me born in a council house, I left school at fourteen and now I’d become an officer in the RAF. An even greater thrill was that I had been recommended for a decoration, namely the Distinguished Flying Medal, for helping to save the aircraft and enabling the whole crew to get back to England. That was definitely the icing on the cake. My skipper Jack Ralph was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross because he displayed leadership as he was an officer, I was a flight, yes I was a flight sergeant, I had a medal. I would meet up with Jack Ralph again in my career. Within a week I was up in London to buy my clothes. [Unlcear] Well I was informed after a time that they were wanting Stirling crews at Tuddenham, my old base. As you will have read above, I had already done some special duties during my tour and so I jumped at the idea and made an important, an appointment to see our squadron commander. He said I don’t know anything about it. Of course, of course that’s what they always say. Anyway he did check up and found it was true. I got an immediate posting back to my bomber station and I met up with my, part of my old crew, so I joined up with them. While there we got a couple of gunners, rear and mid upper, and a wireless operator. I told Doug and Dick about my adventure into the fire what I did on my last trip. I did some revision on the workings of the Stirling as I had not flow them some time. We also did some circuits and bumps. Early 1944 a briefing was arranged and I believe there were twelve crews all together. We were informed that we would have to do a lot of practice low flying over the Norfolk Flats – no hills anywhere - we were also told that the job would entail flying on moonlit nights and between five hundred and a thousand feet. Of course our particular crew had already done a few of these trips as we had already early in our tour so we knew what to expect. It was clear that D-Day was coming soon and so they wanted us, wanted to get as much more, as much equipment as possible to the resistance people, agents were being dropped in France at night from the Lysander aircraft. We started our flying practice during the day, low flying over the flats of Norfolk. We hoped that Dicks navigation and map reading would be as good as hitherto. Well he seemed to find his way around the flats okay. We did many days of this type of flying. I think they thought we were up there having fun, as for me I would have to get my petrol calculations right as I wouldn’t, it wouldn’t do to have an engine failure at five hundred feet, which is what we were going to have to do. We did low flying over long periods to get it absolutely right at night. The night came for us to do our first mission and operation. It was a full moon and clear sky on 21st of April ’44. The technique for crossing the French coast was to cross at, was to cross at eight thousand or nine thousand feet to avoid a heavily defended coast. When our skipper thought it was safe he descended to about five hundred feet. I must say that we actually went all the way down the French coast, not over Pas de Calais because the Germans were still there, so went down the French coast, round Cherbourg, down to Boulogne. It was just below Boulogne where we crossed. When our skipper thought it was safe, he descended to about five hundred feet so we’re over the coast and down we went. At five hundred feet however, all hell broke loose. There seemed to be a gun firing dead ahead and to our starboard. Skipper flung the aircraft to port and he couldn’t do much because we were so low down; we were hit on the starboard side and underneath. Fortunately the tracer was small calibre so not a lot of damage. But there was a hole in the starboard fuselage and a hole near the skipper’s foot. We think [clock chimes] we were hit underneath too, but we were all okay. To the port side of us we could see a Stirling being hit at very low altitude, maybe about two hundred feet and then crashed, fortunately the crew of that aircraft survived and were taken prisoner. Well we pressed on, very low level, as low as two hundred feet at times, towards the eastern side of France, near Lyon. We followed roads and rivers and contours of the land, we knew that we could easily get lost, and some crews did. We had a good navigator and I did a lot of map reading myself when I wasn’t watching the petrol situation, as I said before. I couldn’t let a tank go dry and an engine stall at two hundred to five hundred feet. Anyway, we arrived at the area and the next thing was to look for a torchlight shone by one of the French Resistance, Maquis. If they were caught by the Germans they were usually tortured for information about others and then shot and of course we would easily have been shot down and too low for parachutes. We found the light after circulating the area. I then went to the back of the aircraft and opened the trap door in the floor. On instructions from the pilot I pushed out the big boxes which were on parachute and as we were at five hundred feet they landed reasonably safely, I hoped. After that we made our way to the coast. That was another difficult part because if we crossed at five hundred feet, we could have been shot up by German e-boats which were all along the coast. Climbing to seven thousand to eight thousand meant that we would be easy prey for German fighter planes, but we did climb to eight thousand feet and got over the coast safely and we arrived at Tuddenham, our base, exactly eight hours later, but the undercarriage wouldn’t come down. We tried all the usual methods, like thumping the solenoid and pulling the wires, but nothing happened. I might have mentioned it earlier, just to say that as the Stirling everything, oh yes I have mentioned it by electricity, in the Lancaster it was hydraulics. The final thing to do was for me to go half way down the fuselage where there was a motor winding gear. I asked the skipper to switch off the undercarriage switch on the dashboard and then I started winding. I knew that if I had to wind it all the way down it would be five hundred and forty turns, phew! Anyway, I wound twelve times and I asked the skipper to trip the switch down and wonderful, the undercarriage started to descend and it went all the way down, and locked. What a nightmare, had it not come down and locked we would have had to belly land. We landed safely and we reported to briefing. We mentioned that a Stirling was shot down; it was reported later that it was David [unclear]. The ground engineers on our aircraft found that the undercarriage gears had been damaged by the coastal gunfire so we were lucky to get the undercarriage down. Well two nights later we were due to go again, when the moon was high, so.
CJ: So Colin, after your ten missions on Special Duties, what happened to you next?
CD: Well, I was an instructor for a time, which I got bored with; you had to have a sprog flight engineer. But by July, er, no, August, August 1944, these V2s and V1s were becoming a bit of menace. And so, they’re clever people, they said these are not operations, cause there are no German fighters about but what we want you to do is take over a sprog engineer to train him, and go behind a Mosquito. The Mosquito went in first, okay, he had this new radar called Oboe, and that was marvellous, picked out different places there, and when he dropped his bombs, the idea was we dropped ours. I think there were about four Lancasters at a time went with this Mosquito, and so that’s what we did. So we did that for, er, some time I think. I’m still on aren’t I? Yes. And then eventually that came to an end and I went back on instructors again. I went up to Leconfield, up in Yorkshire, goodness knows what I went up there for, cause I can’t remember I ever did anything! I came back again anyway, to Mildenhall. I was just really an odd bod, an instructor, that’s what I was and I was called an instructor. Oh, yes, eventually, before I went on to Transport Command, we had a, there were aircraft called a York, it was a passenger aircraft, and they wanted to find out what the centre of gravity was because of all the weight of the luggage and everything else on board. So that was my job, with a senior chap. We had all these, all these Yorks in a hangar, several of them, with the tails out, finding the centre of gravity. I can’t remember what I did now, but we found it and I think that did the job and I was made a flight lieutenant for a time, while I was on, to give me some authority. Wasn’t that nice of them! There we are, that’s what I did. But at the end, right at the end, two weeks before the end I went on Manna from Heaven. And there we are, I’ll show you a picture of that. And what we did, these little food parcels, there was sort of some rubberised, they were very good at doing things like that, I think it was probably Americanised, but rubber stuff and all these sweets, powdered milk, powdered egg and all that was inside each one of those. No parachute or anything like this. We were very low, I think we were two or three hundred feet when we went in, and they were warned to keep away because if one hits you it could knock you out you see. There’s another one coming in, another one back there. This went on for several weeks. It was known that some Germans were firing on the Yorks as they flew over, no Lancasters, we were on Lancasters then, Lancasters. They were firing on the Lancasters and the colonel was warned [emphasis] if you allow that to got on you’ll be up in court, you know. So I think it stopped after. The Dutch have never forgotten it. If you speak to a Dutchman now, they’ll tell you: the RAF did us a good thing. I think I’ve got something here from a Dutchman if you’d like to, hang on, here we are, shall I read it. After the war and after Manna from Heaven food parcels arrived, a letter from a Dutch person. “We shall never forget the nights when your squadrons passed us in the dark on the way to Germany, the mighty noise was like music for us: it told us about happier days to come. Your passing planes kept us believing in coming victory, no matter what we had to endure. We have suffered much but Britain and the RAF did not disappoint us, so we have to thank you and the British nation for our living in peace today.” So there we are, that was nice, wasn’t it. So I think -
CJ: So towards the end of the war Colin, where did you go next?
CD: In August of 1945, we as a crew of five with Jack as a captain, Jack Ralph, joined 51 Squadron at Leconfield, near Minster in Yorkshire. We were to have a period of training there on Stirlings, yes Stirlings, our old wartime friend. The powers that be were so short of passenger aircraft that they took the gun turrets out of the Stirling and put some seats down the length of the aircraft. The whole idea was to bring back servicemen from the Far East, including hopefully, some Japanese prisoners of war who had a dreadful time as prisoners. I think the Stirling had about forty seats, down the length of the fuselage with a galley for food and toilet facilities. The aircraft would fly at about eight thousand feet, no oxygen, and so it would have been quite cold and miserable. I remember saying to myself, that if the Japs don’t kill them, then perhaps the Stirling would. But at least they would be coming home and after the business of the Japanese camps I felt they would put up with anything. There was my crew, there were so many pilots back from Canada after training, and the war was over, and of course missing the war, authorities didn’t know what to do with them. Well many of them were trained as stewards, they didn’t like that really, to look after the passengers, to feed them et cetera and so we had one in our crew, but he wasn’t very happy about it. The time came for us to make our first overseas flight. We took off from Leconfield on 20th of August, and made for Stoney Cross, an airfield near the New Forest in Hampshire. We picked up all sorts of equipment, including a refrigerator which was fitted at the rear for use when we picked up passengers. On 22nd of August we took off for Luqa in Malta, which took seven hours thirty five minutes. On landing we were amazed at the bomb damage, we just wondered how they survived. We took off the next day for Castel Bonita, which was an airfield in Libya, North Africa. The temperature in the sun on arrival was one hundred and nineteen degrees Fahrenheit. [Laugh] Phew! We were able to have a quick look at Tripoli, and we were amazed at the number of ships sunk in the harbour. The ships were bombed when the Germans were there in 1942 ‘43. On the next day we took off for Tel Aviv in Palestine; this took us six hours thirty minutes. I was very impressed by, with Tel Aviv, a wealthy town and populated mostly by Jews from all over Europe. We had time to spend an afternoon on their lovely beach, but we were pestered by beach sellers who tried to sell us anything they thought we would wealth, they thought we were wealthy like the population. At that particular time there were battles going on in Jerusalem, so it was out of bounds to us RAF. Their troubles are still going on today, sadly. I mention above about the wealth in Tel Aviv, being a Jewish town, but just outside there was a village called Tel Avivski which was populated by Arabs, who were growing lemons and oranges. Their homesteads were very poor indeed, and what a contrast to Tel Aviv. The next day we took off for Basra, in Iraq which was very much in the news in recent years. The aerodrome was called Shaibah which was outside Basra. Shaibah was a terribly hot place. It was always between a hundred and twenty degrees Fahrenheit. It had a good population - of flies! The billets were poor and so it was a good thing we were only there one night. Tea had a peculiar taste and the food wasn’t terribly appetising. Have I painted a nice picture I say to myself. I must say that the people were very friendly and of course this was 1945 and maybe they aren’t so friendly today. Any airman ground staff could only stay in Shaibah a maximum of six months of the year because after some of them started to go mental called Shaibah blues. As flight engineer I had to supervise the refuelling of our aircraft. They used what they called a bowser and we just hoped it was filled with a hundred octane fuel to give us plenty of lift and power. At least we could get cold beer in the officers mess, just like in Ice Cold in Alex. The next day, 24th, we took off for Karachi. The badge I have on my, on my coat that I had on just now was bought in Karachi, in Pakistan although in 1945 fortunately it was still in India. The aerodrome was called Meri, Moripoor, this aerodrome was quite modern compared to Shaibah. We would be there for two days and so we had the opportunity to visit Karachi. I quite liked this town, but like all Indian town it was full of markets selling just about everything. Of course you never paid the price they asked and so quite a bit of time was spent bargaining with the vendor but he made you comfortable by giving you something soft to sit on then bring you a glass of coca cola which fell apart, no sarsaparilla, sorry, a coco cola or a glass of sarsaparilla, not so nice. I remember buying a pair of shoes which fell apart in a few days and an Indian wool rug which was very nice, I sold it at home for a good profit. The main street in Karachi was called Elphinstone Street, named after Lord Elphinstone who lived in Hastings and there’s a street named after him there too! This was the end of our first flight abroad which took us four days. On 27th of August we flew back to Stoney Cross, many passengers, mainly army personnel and they didn’t like the cold in the Stirling after being in a hot country, still I am sure they were pleased to get home at last. When we arrived back at Stoney Cross we found that we had been posted to Stradishall in Suffolk. This was, and still is, a pre-war RAF station and so at least we had food, accommodation and a batman. The batman, I had was shared with two officers in separate rooms. It was jolly good because he did lots of jobs for us, cleaning our shoes, looking after our laundry and making sure we had everything we wanted. The real benefits of being an officer! The downside was that we had to do Orderly Officer duties from time to time. One of the duties, one of the duties was checking on the food in the general mess. As I went on the Sergeant of the Day which called out ‘any complaints,’ usually there was silence but on one occasion one of the erks said, I have been given very little meat, sir. It looked very small so I got the cooks to give him another slice of meat. I think the erk had eaten quite a bit before I got it, got there. Of course the Orderly Officer was actually in charge of the RAF station when the Group Captain was away at night time too. So it was quite a responsible job if anything went wrong at the station. We had parties there, with plenty of girlfriends, lots of fun with booze. I think we’ll leave it at that now.
CJ: So on these long trips Colin, with Transport Command did you meet any interesting people?
CD: Well one of the people I did meet was at Cairo. We stopped at a hotel called the Heliopolis, Heliopolis Palace and I think we were on the third floor. Now, King Farouk, he somehow or other he didn’t like the British, I don’t know why, I don’t know why. But he would, you would see him belting through the streets in the middle of two guards in a jeep type of vehicle, you know and be crouched in there. We actually met him actually, at a reception at Helioplolis Palace and he sort of didn’t want to really say too much to us, us chaps chaps. He wasn’t a good leader, he liked pornography, he had loads of pornography, you wouldn’t believe it, stuff he had. Well eventually he was ousted of course, wasn’t he. I think it was Nasser came in after him, wasn’t it. He was dead scared of travelling around, he thought he’d be shot any moment, you know, they didn’t like him. So that’s King Farouk, I’ve met a king, okay.
CJ: So when did you leave the RAF Colin? And what did you do after that?
CD: Well I was there during that very cold winter and it soon after that actually. By May, May 1947, May 1947 I said farewell to my friends at Lyneham, I took the train to Preston in Lancashire and that was my demob station, okay. So I came out and there I am, and that’s what, various documents including identity card, ration book and some money, so that’s what I got for putting my life on the line. But still, it was better than nothing. I’ve now signed off from the RAF and I was given a sort of dowry, but I can’t remember how much it was, but I don’t think I was terribly rich. I came back to London to stay with my, an aunt for a time. I stayed at, I stayed with my grandmother in Beckenham. She had a son that was employed at the Standard Bank of South Africa and I was very friendly with him, because he played cricket and all that, in his job, and he said how about getting into shipping, the Union Castle Line near me, where I am, I know they’re looking for young men. I said yeah, that sounds interesting to me, shipping, well I don’t want to fly again and, and that’s what he did. I went up for an interview and I got the job. I think it was about two hundred and fifty pounds a year. [Laugh] I thought you see, I could train perhaps as a purser eventually and I wouldn’t mind going out to South Africa and stay out there for a bit as I was single, as easy as it was then. So that’s what I did and I started 15th May I think it was, 15th of May. First up yes, I would be employed in an office down, oh I was employed in an office down in the East India Docks for a time, Blackwall, yes, at a salary of two hundred and fifty pounds per annum. I bought a month’s season ticket on the Southern Railway at the cost of one pound fourteen shillings and that would take me from Elmer’s End to Beckenham or Cannon Street in the city. I used it seven days a week, I used it at weekends. Arrived at the office on the first day at nine fifteen am and met up with the manager at the docks office. Really old buildings, it’s real east, sorry about that, just chuck it aside, sorry. Yes, it was very, sort of worn out buildings there, everything was sort of archaic really, you know. Big, it had a big shelf to write on. And a stool. And if you’ve ever seen any Charles Dickens films, just like that really. Goes back to those days you see.
CJ: And what was your job there?
CD: Just as a clerk, to start with, just as a clerk, did a lot of writing, oh and I got the job of going down to the docks to meet the ships, with a senior man first, but then eventually I went down myself, to the West India Dock, King George the Fifth Dock, Queen Victoria Dock in London, don’t exist any more of course, and Southampton went down to Southampton. Yes. That was the most interesting part of being with the Union Castle actually, going down to the ships, so I enjoyed that. Now eventually we were hearing rumours you see, that oh they united with the Clan Line, that would have been a few years after and eventually we could see that the end of the line was coming because people were flying to South Africa and East Africa. We didn’t have an empire any more, you know, Uganda, Tanganyika and all these of places, so I decided I think I’d better change; I had two young daughters at the time and I thought I’d better think about changing. So I got a job with Beecham Research Laboratories in their offices. I did a few jobs outside in hospitals and took on that job, in Kent, that’s why I’m down here. I used to visit the consultants, so that was interesting. Yeah.
CJ: So after the war did you manage to keep in touch with any of your old crew?
CD: Yes I did. I was the secretary, we used to have reunions up at Tuddenham, Tuddenham and there’s a building there that we used to use, it was more convenient than Mildenhall really, although we used to go to Mildenhall. But I was the secretary, so I did the newsletters, it was great and yes, I was given a glass bowl at the end which is upstairs. And curiously those eventually died off and that’s very sad.
CJ: How do you feel Bomber Command veterans were treated after the war, for example by the government?
CD: We were treated very badly. We were treated very badly. Churchill never thanked us, he thanked every other, every other side of the war, Army, Navy, Coastal Command, but not Bomber Command, Fighter Command, but not Bomber Command, never Bomber Command, and yet he was the one that said early part of the war we will bomb every town in Germany and make them pay for what they’re doing to us. That’s what he said, you know, and that’s wanted us to do. But it all came to a head with Dresden, didn’t it. And of course that wasn’t Bomber Harris’ idea at all, he didn’t want to do it because it was too far for his crews, it’s really the Russian general out there. He, he told Eisenhower that the town was full of German troops and weapons, you see. And he said would you, could Bomber Command bomb the place. Eisenhower got on to Churchill and Churchill got on to Bomber Harris and Bomber Harris said well it’s just too far for my troops, I don’t want to do it. You’ve got the order to do it, you must find a way of doing it, so that they get there and back. That’s, you know, that’s the sort of attitude he had you see. So, it came about and of course it was found that it was mainly full of refugees rather than troops, so you know, but that’s the one, if you mention Bomber Command, that’s what people mention. What about Dresden, you know. But it’s no different to any other town, what about towns in England? And if he’d had his way V2s would have obliterated London completely. So yes, I don’t think we, it’s only since we’ve had the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park that things have softened quite a bit now. People, when they hear I’ve been in Bomber Command are quite impressed, you know cause there’s not many of us about are there. So I think the attitude has changed a bit, but I was a great admirer of Churchill you know, during the war, he gave us that feeling of we were going to win, that’s what we wanted really, someone behind us, but he never stayed on at the end. I could never understand why really, never understood why. The Queen Mother always supported us and I went to the, the church in the Strand, what’s the name of that church in the Strand, I can’t remember it, anyway it’s the RAF, it’s the RAF church and it was Bomber Harris’ monument that was being built there, next to Dowding, the two of them there you see. And you wouldn’t believe it, all these layabouts were shouting at us: murderers. The Queen Mother she always supported us and said take no notice of them, I was standing right next to her, actually, take no notice of them. One chap there had got his uniform on, had red, red paint thrown over him you know, that’s how we were treated. Yeah. It was pretty grim really. And the police didn’t do much about it really, they’re just yobs he says, what can you do?
CJ: But on the other hand I gather you’ve been honoured by the French.
CD: Yes, absolutely. I have also at our do on Tuesday night I said I want to send a toast to the President of France, President Macron. So I don’t know if he ever got the message but I you’ve read the letter, yes.
CJ: This is the letter that confirms that you’ve been made a Chevalier of the Legion d’Honeur.
CD: That’s right, Nationale, Legion d’Honeur. First introduced by Napoleon in 1802 and used extensively during the Battle of Waterloo, 1815. He used it for his highest gallantry award. So whether it’s still used as a high gallantry award I don’t know. It wasn’t used in the second world war because they gave in you see right at the start. But it was used in the First World War, yeah.
CJ: So what else keeps you busy nowadays?
CD: The garden! Try to. Well I belong to Probus. I belong to, I’m the honorary president, honorary president of the Royal British Legion, in Tenterden. Church too, I go to church so I made lots and lots of friends there. We have different little dos from time to time. I go to the day centre here on a Tuesday, that’s tomorrow. They come and pick me up, they have lunch there.
CJ: You’re living in Tenterden and there’s a heritage railway I think you had some involvement.
CD: Oh Kent and East Sussex Railway! Oh yes! I’d forgotten about that. In 1967, we came to live here in 1966 you see, and in 1967 well we heard that there was a railway coming along, didn’t know much about it then, down station road, so we thought we’d go and have a look and they had a couple of little engines down there, one was called Hastings and there was another one down there as well. And I went to the meeting, they had meetings to try to get the railway started somehow. Oh, the rows that went on! You know, between the secretary and the president, and the chairman, had different views from each other, you know. They were told: if you don’t get your act together you’ll never run a railway. Of course you wouldn’t, not like that. But eventually it all settled down but interesting meetings. I’ve still got [unclear[, upstairs, amazing!
CJ: You were volunteering on the railway, you were helping?
CD: Yes, I did a signals course in 1968 I think, ‘69 something like that, ‘69, nothing like what they do today, it’s much more. But then they said we really need somebody in the booking office to get it started, so course I’m married, two children, you can’t spend too much time. Anyway, I took it on. I ordered these little tickets, cardboard tickets as you push in the machine: boom boom. It puts the date on it, you know, that’s what it was. Quite cheap as well. At that stage, 1974 it opened, 1974. Bill Deedes came down, he opened it. Just went as far as Rolvenden, that’s as far as we could get. It took another two or three years to get to Wittersham Road. Ted Heath, oh yeah, he came and opened it, Ted Heath, yeah, and to Bodiam and Northiam, so it took many many years, it was quite a few years after. Opened in 1974, about ‘88 something like that I think, it got to Bodiam. The Lottery I think paid for it, paid for part of that between Northiam and Bodiam. But they were always short of money, you know, no matter what. A new boiler costs at least ten thousand pounds you see, for an engine, everything is so costly now, I’m afraid. So that was my job. So I did do things, I didn’t just sit at home doing nothing!
CJ: Well, you’ve certainly led an interesting life, Colin, and thanks very much for talking to us today.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Colin Deverell
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Johnson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-07-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADeverellCRE190722, PDeverellCRE1901
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:38:13 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Deverell was born in Croydon. Upon leaving school, he worked for Oliver Typewriter Company, where he gained engineering skills to become an amateur rigger for Imperial Airways, before finding employment with Rollaston Aircraft Services in 1939. His mother was killed in a bombing on Christmas Day 1940, motivating him to join the Royal Air Force in 1941 and train as a flight engineer. Deverell completed thirty operations based at RAF Wratting Common and RAF Tuddenham. He details the engineering differences between Stirlings and Lancasters and recollects the events of operations to Kiel, Lorient, Duisburg, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart, Peenemünde, Berlin, and Szczecin. He then completed a further four operations, filling in for a crew with an injured flight engineer. On his thirty-fourth operation to Szczecin, they were attacked and he burnt his hands extinguishing a fire on board. By 19, Deverell was promoted to flight lieutenant and awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal. In 1944, he undertook ten special operations that required low-flying to release boxes of equipment according to light signals from the French Resistance. In 1945, he took part in Operation Manna, before joining 51 Squadron to return servicemen from the Far East on converted Stirlings. Finally, he recalls his career following demobilisation in 1947, the treatment of Bomber Command, and attending reunions at Tuddenham. As the Honorary President of the Royal British Legion in his hometown of Tenterden, Deverell has also been awarded the Legion d’Honneur.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Anne-Marie Watson
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Croydon
England--Suffolk
France
France--Lorient
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Stuttgart
Poland
Poland--Szczecin
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940-07-10
1940-08-15
1940-12-25
1941
1942
1943-06-27
1943-08-17
1943-08-23
1943-08-29
1943-09-23
1944
1945-08
1946
1947-05
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
51 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
H2S
Lancaster
Me 110
Mosquito
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
promotion
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Wratting Common
recruitment
Resistance
searchlight
Stirling
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/76/742/PDelCortoD170926.1.jpg
8ebbe28b1ccd6245bf9526739b4de7d0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/76/742/ADelCortoD170926.2.mp3
2a47a8d095d94f320118ecb51c25c2d6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Del Corto, Delia
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Delia Del Corto who recollects her wartime experiences in Tuscany.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DelCorto, D
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FC: Allora, questa intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistato è Delia Del Corto. L’intervistatrice è Francesca Campani. Siamo a Viareggio, è il 26 Settembre 2017. Assiste all’intervista Elena Lencioni. Ok, grazie, grazie per quest’intervista, possiamo cominciare, no. Allora, come le stavo accennando prima, mi piacerebbe partire da tipo, quando è nata, dove è nata, cosa faceva la sua famiglia, prima della guerra, prima di iniziare a parlare della guerra. Se aveva fratelli, sorelle, tutto quanto.
DDC: Allora, io sono nata l’1.11.32.
FC: OK.
DDC: Allora, la famiglia era una famiglia grande perchè eravamo sei figli, il papà e la mamma, il nonno e la nonna, dieci persone. Avevamo la nostra casa, grazie a Dio, avevamo il nostro terreno, avevamo insomma, ecco. Il papà e il nonno erano falegnami, avevano una falegnameria. Poi c’avevo un fratello che faceva il verniciatore, poi ce n’avevo un altro [laughs], un altro invece che, come si può dire, era con lo zio Aldo quando era a lavorare ne, io non lo so come ci si chiamava insomma
EL: Ma, era un operaio.
DDC: Ma lavorava in, no, in un, come un ristorante o roba del genere. Ora non me lo ricordo bene,
EL: Sì, ah ok.
DDC: Non me lo ricordo bene però tra un altro e l’altro voglio dire, poi c’era lo zio Luigi che invece lui faceva il, era, avevano tutti qualcosa, lo zio Aldo faceva, ehm, come si dice
EL: Lavorava in un albergo.
DDC: Lavorava in un albergo però poteva fare anche l’imbianchino, poteva fare tante cose, fra l’altro, sono tante, infatti voglio dire, se mi concedeva di farmi un, così una panoramica e poi mi diceva magari ora facciamo sì ma insomma potevo. Dimmi qualcosa.
FC: Va benissimo così, va benissimo, noi, qualsiasi cosa si ricorda va bene. Non c’è problema.
EL: Ma dove, dove stavate voi?
FC: Esatto.
DDC: Si stava a Montemagno,
FC: OK.
DDC: Comune di Camaiore, il paesino Montemagno, lo sa no dov’è? Si abitava un pochino sopra così sopra il paese ma di poco, in cinque minuti s’arrivava e avevamo del terreno giù in paese, e avevamo tanto del terreno, c’era uliveto, c’era bosco, c’erano le vigne, c’era un popò di tutto ecco. Adesso ora io non so che posso di raccontarvi ecco. E in
FC: Sì, no, no, vada avanti pure.
DDC: Vuole sapere in tempo di guerra quello che
FC: Sì, sì. Va bene. Quello che si ricorda.
DDC: Eh, ma io non so quello che era tempo
FC: Lei si ricorda quando è iniziata la guerra?
DDC: Ero ragazzina, ora non so dire proprio il giorno preciso ma insomma che era scoppiata questa guerra e tutto quanto, anche nel paese voglio dire se ne parlava, poi ci fu da uscire di lì, andare, si portarono, c’avevamo le pecore, allora avevamo tutto il bestiame, c’erano le mucche perché nel paese così c’era, avevamo un pochino di tutto ecco, i nostri. E si portarono le pecore sopra Gombitelli, a, spetta come si chiama, al Ferrandino. Al Ferrandino, era proprio al tempo della guerra quella lì eh. Io ero ragazzina e lassù c’era andata la mia sorella più grande, insieme c’aveva portato il mi papà perché? Perché gli uomini, guai, erano sempre cercati lì, cosa [unclear], i tedeschi e allora andavano a dormire nel bosco lì per lì, per non farsi trovare e tutto quanto. Poi era una vita troppo difficoltosa. Ci si fece a attraversare la strada maestra perché lassù da dove si abita noi per andare a Gombitelli c’è da, c’è da scendere dalla casa dove abitiamo, c’è da scendere in paese e giù c’è la strada che fa Camaiore, che fa Valpromaro, che va a Lucca che va, ecco c’è la strada. Abbiamo attraversato la strada lì, siamo saliti su per il bosco, siamo andati, quando, no a Gombitelli, più su del Gombitelli, al Ferrandino, c’abbiamo portato le pecore perché? Perché in quel momento lì i tedeschi prendevino le mucche, prendevino le pecore, facevino d’ogni ben di dio, quel che gli veniva in mente. Allora per evitare, noi le nostre bestine, le nostre cose, insomma, abbiamo, le abbiamo portate lassù. Lassù ce le hann date alla zia Liliana, c’aveva portato il nonno Alberto, e io non ricordo più dello zio Virgilio perché se era andato lassù anche lui, se c’era andato non lo ricordo a dir la verità, a dir la verità. E io avevo diec’anni, avevo diec’anni e la nonna Ancilla era in stato interessante della zia Raffaella. Allora si partiva una volta per settimana, si faceva il pane in casa, casalingo perché lassù al nostro paese c’abbiamo il forno, c’abbiamo tutto, si faceva il pane. E poi, dopo con quelle borse grandi, lunghe così si portava tutto, il pane alla sua, alla zia Liliana insomma, si portava lassù sopra Gombitelli. E io cercavo di aiutarli come meglio potevo ma ero una ragazzina, voglio dire, un po’ più mingherlina, insomma vabbè facevo del mio meglio. E ora che
EL: C’erano anche partigiani.
DDC: E c’erano anche partigiani, sì. E una volta, allora, la posso raccontare, quel discorso del partigiano che ci fu un incontro tra cosi e il partigiano fu ferito?
EL: Certo.
FC: Certo.
DDC: Eh, non so quel che vuole sapere [unclear].
FC: Queste cose qua.
DDC: Ecco. Allora in quel momento lì c’erino partigiani e c’erano i tedeschi, ora non ricordo la precisione dove erano questi tedeschi. Ci fu un incontro e s’incominciarono a tirare col cannone le cose con le mitragliatrici insomma e ci fu anche, ferirono un partigiano. Ferirono un partigiano, era lassù sopra Gombitelli al Ferrandino anche lui, questo ragazzo. Allora non si sapeva come, non si sapeva, io ero ragazzina ma lo ricordo il discorso lì. E mi si diede, noi un lenzuolo fatto sul telaio, di quella tela grossa, la inchiodarono su du cosi, du
EL: Due assi. Assi.
DDC: Du assi inchiodarono questo coso, ci misero dentro questo coso ferito, questo ragazzo ferito e poi quattro donne di lassù, perché le stanghe del coso d’avertici nel mezzo l’ammalato erano due. Allora una donna di qui una donna di là, una di qui, una di là, quattro ragazze di lassù dal Ferrandino hanno portato questo povero ragazzo all’ospedale a Camaiore. Per la strada, siccome c’era dei posti di blocco, no? Allora questi tedeschi fermavano, ‘te, dove andare?’, facevano questo discorso qui, no. Allora questi ragazzi mi dicevino che non lo potevano scoprire perché questo ragazzo che era lì sulla portantina aveva un male che s’attaccava, sì, un male, come si chiama?
EL: La peste.
DDC: Come?
EL: La peste.
DDC: No, ma non era.
FC: Contagioso.
DDC: Contagioso, era un male contagioso. Digli così, loro avevino paura. E insomma, fu così che queste ragazze ce la fecero a portare questo ferito all’ospedale a Camaiore. Ora però io di lì non so più nulla nel senso perché ero ragazzina, voglio dire, anche se se ne è parlato non lo ricordo. Insomma ce la fecero queste ragazze a portare questo giovanotto all’ospedale. E non c’era portantine, non c’era nulla, allora la mia sorella più grande gli diede un lenzuolo fatto da noi sul telaio che è bello robusto, lo inchiodarono su due aste lì di coso, ci misero questo ferito e quattro ragazze prese di lassù portarono questo. E per la strada c’erano i posti di blocco e mi dicevano: ‘te, dove andare?’, visto come fanno, facevano così i tedeschi e questo era coperto e mi dicevino: ‘io lo scopro però’ che aveva, non so che malattia dicevino che si raccattava, una malattia.
FC: Il tifo.
DDC: Tipo il tifo, un affare del genere. Loro avevino una paura, no, no, allora, come dì, andate via. Fatto sta che ce la fecero a portarlo all’ospedale a Camaiore. Ora lì cosa successe poi io non lo so perché poi, voglio dire, non si potevino sapè tutte le cose, a quell’ora lì insomma.
FC: Quindi in questo paesino c’era tanta gente che era scappata su sui monti al
DDC: Al Ferrandino?
FC: Eh.
DDC: Ora, lì dove eravamo, noi avevamo trovato, ma più che una, insomma era una casetta, na stanzina, du stanzine piccoline che accanto c’avevino perfino il bestiame. S’era trovato questo piccolo coso così, come si dice, quando si va, si cerca na casina di sfollati, quel che si può trovà, si può trovà, così.
EL: Gli altri dormivano nel bosco, no?
DDC: Eh?
EL: Altri dormivano nel bosco.
DDC: Altri dormivano nel bosco ma nel bosco io lassù, quando siamo andati lassù, non, quello non lo sapevo perché più in là c’erano partigiani insomma era, era una cosa così lassù. Allora, nel bosco io lo so bene che ci dormivano quando si abitava qui a casa nostra. A casa nostra anche il nonno Alberto ha dormito nel bosco come lo zio Virgilio e io gli andavo a portare da mangiare. Allora, ti ha sentì, gli facevo, perché lassù la casa dove abbiamo la casa noi, per andare nel bosco praticamente s’attraversa tutta la strada ma così boschiva, eh. Allora io che facevo? Avevo dieci anni no, m’ero, la mamma m’aveva fatto, la mamma era sarta, m’ero fatta fare una gonna tutta increspata, sotto la gonna io c’avevo messo i sacchettini, non so se l’ha presente il sacchetto che ci s’andava a coglier olive?
FC: No, non ce l’ho presente.
DDC: Di stoffa, eh, tipo un grembiule ma però c’ha una bocca così, fatta così, fatto così il grembiule, il sacchetto, no? Ecco. Allora sotto la gonna il sacchetto, il sacchetto col da mangiare per il papà e per il fratello, ecco. E poi sopra un altro affare che facevo visto che andà nel bosco a raccoglier pini, un cesto al braccio, insomma così e cosà. E quaggiù c’avevo la roba da portare a mi papà e mi fratello eh e allora incontravo tedeschi, ‘te dove andare?’ e io gli dicevo che era, insomma facevo capire così che raccoglievo pini perché c’avevo la cesta al braccio con pini dentro, insomma tutto quanto. Però ero una ragazzina piccina, non pensavino di, e invece andavo a portà, se m’avessero scoperto [laughs].
FC: Eh, meno male. Ma quindi il suo papà e i fratelli erano nascosti lì perché avevano paura che
DDC: Eh sì, c’erano rastrellamenti perché, faccia conto che ogni volta per settimana e anche due facevano rastrellamenti. Quelli che erino giù in paese, i tedeschi, allora venivano su e venivino a fare rastrellamenti anche dove, noi si stava sopra il paese, popoino sopra il paese così, e noi ragazzi s’andava in cima così, ora io non so come spiegarglielo perché da lassù dalla casa dove abitiamo noi si vede giù il paese, s’affacciamo così si vede il paese, e c’erano queste macchine di tedeschi, queste cose vicine alla chiesa così e noi se n’accorgieva, ci s’accorgieva quando loro partivano per fare questi rastrellamenti. Allora, che si faceva? Te va a chiamar tu papà, te va a chiamà, a bussà a la porta, andate via perché vengino i tedeschi a fare rastrellamenti. Allora si finivinu di vestì per
FC: Per strada [laughs].
DDC: Per la strada e una volta lì accanto a me e perfino un nostro parente Elia, quando, ecco, non ce la fece a scappare questo giovanotto, non ce la fece a scappare, niente i tedeschi in casa. Allora c’aveva na sorella, che aveva na bimbetta piccolina, che era nata da poco e insomma e questa sorella stava lì con loro perché il marito era militare. E lei era in camera con questa figliola, allora, si pigiavano [makes a knocking noise] ecco i tedeschi, ecco i tedeschi, via. Allora lei che fece? Lu era su in questa camera che dormiva, non ce la fece ad andar via, si mise tra una materassa e l’altra, sdraiato su, tra una materassa e l’altra, la su, le coperte che coprivano questo coso, la sorella a sedere che dava la poppata alla figliola. Entrino i tedeschi in camera e, c’era la bimba, c’era la donna che dava la poppata alla figliola e insomma, hai visto come fai, facevano loro insomma, però come dire, non c’è nessuno ve’. Il fratello l’aveva messo tra una materassa e l’altra e le c’era a sedè così che dava, come dì, questa è lì, io mi metto a sedere sopra di lui e do da poppà alla figliola. Queste son cose successe davvero.
FC: Eh no, ci credo, lo so, lo so. Quindi non erano partigiani però i suoi famigliari.
DDC: No, no, proprio partigiani di dire sono stati ne partigiani no, non erano certi per i tedeschi però neanche [laughs]
FC: Anche perché se scappavano insomma.
DDC: Ma poi mio fratello, era, voglio dire, giovanetto, mio papà aveva già una certa età, non era per esempio, ragazzi da andare anche.
EL: Ha fatto la guerra del ’15-’18.
DDC: Sì, il papà, il nonno ha fatto la guerra del ’15-’18, vero, mi papà.
FC: Eh, va bene.
DDC: E quando ammazzarono là nella selva quei sette, n’ammazzarono sette. Una mattina si sente camminare così [stamps her feet] perché c’abbiamo proprio la casa lassù dove abbiamo la casa paterna, qui c’è la porta e lì c’è la strada che passa proprio lì davanti la strada e si sentiva [stamps her feet] camminare così. C’affacciamo sulla porta, io ero una ragazzina perché avevo paura e la mi mamma invece, lei non aveva paura di nulla, lei c’aveva sempre di vedè, da cosa no, di vedere se poteva aiutà qualcuno, era così, lei era così. S’affacciamo sulla porta e c’era sette giovanotti così camminavino uno dietro l’altro, prima un tedesco [unclear] e c’eran due tedeschi così. E signora, quando videro la mi mamma che s’affaccia sulla porta così, perché la porta è proprio sulla strada, la soglia così come lì ci fosse la strada, un sogliettina così. E la mi mamma quando li vide questi qui, allora che succede, che succede? o signora, ma loro non si poteva mica fermà a chiacchierare, la mamma n’andava dietro, o signora, ci portano ad ammazzare a Stiava. Ci portano, perché allora li fucilavano da tutte le parti, era così, e la mi mamma n’andava dietro perché loro camminavino e parlavino, ci portino ad ammazzare a Stiava. Me lo dice a la mi mamma che c’ha visto? Ma e che vi posso dire, io non so chi sia la tua mamma e c’era a quell’ora degli sfollati che erano venuti via, viareggini erano venuti lassù perché facevino bombardamenti le, le cose no, e c’erino allora, tanti andavino nel paese così per, non istavino nelle città perché era più pericoloso. Ma come fa, eh signora ci portino ad ammazzare a Stiava e guarda lì. E ma camminà non si poteva, non me ha fermà e la mamma dietro. Ma lei pensi, eh, la mi mamma non aveva paura di nulla. Ma me lo dice a la mi mamma? Ma me lo dice a la mi mamma che ci portino? Ma io non la conosco la mamma, tesoro, ma come faccio a dire a la tu mamma? Mi disse anche come si chiamava la su mamma ma io ora quello non me lo ricordo perché ero ragazzina, insomma. E dopo a un certo punto un pochino l’andò di dietro a questi, erano tutti in fila così, i tedeschi con quel coso puntato. Ad un certo punto la mamma si rigirò ma dopo un, sarà passato un dieci minuti, infatti furono fucilati lì vicino alla casa nostra, voglio dire. Ci siam [unclear] questa cosa le [mimics machine gun noise] queste scariche, no. Oddio, disse la mi mamma, l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati, a me piglia il freddo, erano [unclear] perché cose passate proprio da lassù, oddio oddio l’hanno ammazzati, oddio l’hanno ammazzati. Dopo così un pochino ma non so il tempo che sarà passato ritornino indietro questi tedeschi con quei fucili, però quegli altri ragazzi non c’erino più. L’hanno ammazzati, diceva la mi mamma, l’hanno ammazzati. Io bisogna che vadi a vedere se qualcuno avessino bisogno di noi. Queste cose le ho viste, eh!
FC: Sì, sì.
DDC: Allora, la mi mamma si parte, si fece allontanare questi tedeschi perché stavino dal Bellotti ora te lo sai voglio dì, insomma quando si furono allontanati la mia mamma disse io ciò d’andà a vedè sti ragazzi com’è il discorso. Si parte ma per non mandarcela sola sta povera donna e io vado sempre dietro alla mamma. Quando si cammina poco distante dalla casa questi ragazzi tutti sternacchiati nella strada morti. Queste cose non si possino scordà!
FC: Eh immagino.
DDC: Non si possino scordare queste cose qui.
FC: E questi tedeschi non dicevano niente?
DDC: I, no, no, c’hanno anche, non li si poteva dir nulla perché guai, voglio dire. Non ci venivino mica a raccontà le cose a noi. Guai che, e poi, non avendo mai trovati gli uomini lì nelle nostre case perché eravamo in sette famiglie. Gli uomini non ce li avevino mai trovati perché chi dormiva nel bosco, chi dopo, noi siam dopo sopra Gombitelli al Ferrandino erano cioè erano andati vai perché lì nel paese lì vicino a Ricetro c’era il terreno, tedeschi anche lì c’erino proprio a dove c’è la villa lì a Ricetro, c’erino, l’avevimo da tutte le parti.
EL: Avevano messo anche un cartello, no, i tedeschi, con scritto che eravate partigiani.
DDC: Sì, qui tutti partigiani, tutti partigiani. Di stare attenti, qui c’era, no, ma ne avevino messo quattro, cinque di questi cosi, che erimo partigiani e c’era da stà, come si faceva? E’ così.
EL: E quello che venne in casa a chiedere il pane invece?
DDC: Allora, si faceva il pane, la mamma faceva il pane in casa, fatto così da noi no. C’abbiamo il forno.
FC: Che pane era?
DDC: Il pane bono, il pane casalingo.
FC: Bianco o nero?
DDC: No, bianco, no, non si faceva nero, si faceva normale voglio dire. Perché poi c’avevamo, si seminava il grano da noi voglio dire e poi a quell’ora c’era un, c’era la tessera, a quell’ora e davano un etto e mezzo di pane al giorno, a tessera alle persone, un etto e mezzo di pane al giorno. Invece c’era la possibilità, chi voleva la farina, si poteva prendere la farina. Allora a te la farina invece ne davino un pochino di, insomma a quell’ora là. Allora la mi mamma preferiva prendere la farina e poi il pane farlo da noi perché lassù alla casa paterna, accanto c’abbiamo il forno, c’abbiamo il forno. E poi c’aveva, ci s’aveva insomma sai terreno e si seminava il grano anche da noi e un po’ il grano ce l’avevamo anche da noi. E allora si prendeva un po’ dell’uno e un po’ dell’altro e si cercava di tirare avanti e fà questo pane. Allora, il giorno che avevamo fatto il pane [laughs], il giorno che avevamo fatto il pane [laughs], quel pane casalingo, lungo, grosso, no, così. Avevamo levato il pane e la mamma per farlo ghiacciare si metteva la tavola che ci si metteva poi il pane sopra quando si portava il pane al forno perché il pane, il forno, come qui c’abbiamo la casa, il forno era come lì in fondo, si camminava pochi passi, c’avevamo il forno. E niente, questa sedia, due sedie così, ci metteva la tavola e metteva il pane così e ritto come fosse, questo è il pane così e per farlo ghiacciare, prima di metterlo nell’armadio non ci si poteva mettere. A un certo punto, e noi eravamo, questi bamboretti perché c’erano altri du fratelli, c’era Franco, che ora è
EL: Prete.
DDC: Che è Franco che è prete voglio dì, erimo tutti in terra, io ero la più grandina, a sedè seduto su una cosa. E c’avevimo, aveva levato il pane, era là, così questo pane a ghiacciare. Entra un tedesco in casa poi si sentiva proprio quel profumo di pane casalingo, no, così, pane, pane, pane, perché, a un certo punto hann sofferto tanto anche loro eh, poverini, io quelli prima non lo so ma quelli quando li abbiamo avuti vicini lo so, poi loro c’avevino un pane nero come minimo così, brutto e cattivo, che se lo infilavi nel muro [laughs] si spaccava il muro ma il pane no. Allora, aveva fatto, aveva levato questo pane e noi eravamo, bamboretti così, eravamo io, che ero la più grandina poi altri du fratelli e poi c’era quello che ora è, Franco che è
EL: Prete.
DDC: Che è prete sì. Eravamo lì tutti in terra, c’era steso un panno e eravamo lì tutti in terra così a sedere e si chiacchierava così tra una cosa e l’altra, visto che si fa bamboretti insieme, anch’io voglio dire ero bamboretta perché avevo dieci anni ecco. Entra un tedesco, pane, pane, perché si sentiva il bel profumo di pane [unclear] così, pane, pane, pane. Entra e noi, questi bamboretti si fece certi occhi così e si vide entrà, e va là questo coso e piglia un pane così nella tavola come faccio io ora e dopo parte questo tedesco. Un vuole che il discorso nel frattempo che lui ci va fuori, entra la mi mamma: ‘E te, ndu vai?’. Mi disse, io, pane e pane. Parte di corsa. E lì, siccome, nel mentre che l’entrava questo andava via col pane in mano, mi chiappa il pane mi mà, e lo riporta là. [background laughing] E lu, andè via ma però poverino [unclear], ecco e lei s’affaccia sulla porta e lo guardava e dopo anche noi ragazzi sai e lu poverino andava via con la testa, un po’ son dolori perché aveva capito, come dì, ho preso il pane perché siccome lo sapevino anche loro che c’era la fame per il mondo a quell’ora, no, e allora, e a lei, come dì, povera donna hann levato il pane per i suoi figlioli, hai capito? E lu andava via così. E la mamma, no, la mamma la, nel mentre entrava la mamma, mi sono scordata un discorso. Nel mentre che la mamma entrava, e lui usciva fori col pane e lei glielo prese, tu ,come dì, m’hai preso il pane che per i miei figlioli, vedi quanti ce ne ho! Perché non erimo neanche tutti noi, c’era Franco, c’eran tutti
EL: Sì, sì, c’eran tutti.
DDC: Glielo prese e lo rimise là. E lu andè via, lo capì forse nella sua cosa capì che questo discorso come dì, hai preso il pane che c’erano i miei figlioli lì poverini miei che morino da fame. Quando lei lo rimise là e poi, e lu andè via ma popo’ così pover’omo, e dopo lei s’affacciò e lo guardò e lu era andato via un poco macilento così a lei ne seppe male, prese il pane, poi s’affaccia sulla porta: ‘Camerata! Camerata! Camerata!’ ‘Sì?’ e lu si gira e lei n’andò incontro e gli dette il pane. Povera donna. Lu, io v’avrei fatto vedè questo ragazzo abbracciato a nonna, v’avrei fatto vedè. Tutti i giorni che lu passava de lì c’aveva da salutar la nonna. Camerata! Poverini, han sofferto anche loro perché [unclear] quelli lì c’era quello che era più buono, c’era insomma, poverini. Non te le puoi scordà queste cose che. E lì vicino alla nostra casa t’ho detto, cioè ammazzarono questi ragazzi.
EL: Però era a Pioppetti, no? Il tuo vicino di casa, lì.
DDC: A Pioppetti, a Pioppetti trentadue.
EL: Ma il tuo vicino di casa come l’ammazzarono a Pioppetti, che l’andarono a prendere al bar?
DDC: Ah, ma quello, Corrado.
EL: Sì.
DDC: Corrado, quello sì che stava in
EL: Come mai c’era stata la strage di Pioppetti?
DDC: Allora, c’era stata la strage di Pioppetti perché se tu, ora io non so se lei è pratico come. Te vieni da coso, dal Pitoro, vieni dal Pitoro e quando arrivi a un certo punto c’è la strada che continua e va a Valpromaro, c’è la strada che va giù che va a Montemagno, e po’ Camaiore, un po’ dalle parti lì, no? Allora, c’è questo incrocio e lì, allora c’è anche quella marginetta?
FC: Sì.
DDC: Allora, dove c’è quella marginetta lì c’avevino ammazzato un capitano tedesco che l’avevino accusato e c’è stata non so quanto ferma la su jeep che avevino insomma quelle macchine lì che avevino soldati.
FC: Sì.
DDC: Perché c’erino partigiani lassù, dove siamo stati anche noi lassù al Ferrandino. Erino scesi di notte che avevino fatto? Avevino trovato, avevino visto che questa macchina veniva e loro appostati hanno sparato a questi partigiani, eh a questi tedeschi e avevino ammazzato questo capitano dei tedeschi, non so, capitano, generale, non lo so com’era. E lì c’era la su macchina ferma c’era stata tanto e lì ammazzavino un tedesco? Normale, dieci dei nostri fucilati. E invece un tedesco, un graduato, è logico che lì quanti ne passò. Eppoi, faccia, fa conto che trentadue li impiccarono, a ogni platano c’era uno impiccato. Trentadue. E poi se ne ammazzarono dei altri ora non me lo ricordo ma quelli io li ho visti.
EL: Il papà di Rino?
DDC: Eh, il papà di Rino, quello lo ammazzarono ma non senza portarlo laggiù. Vennero in sù, quando arrivarono lì a Leccio sono entrati perché c’è sempre stato ci vendevano insomma i cosi.
EL: L’alimentare.
DDC: L’alimentare insomma era un popo’ di tutto il sale, quella roba lì ci si andava a comprare allora il pane, un popo’ di minestra, insomma, quel che si poteva, ecco, e lui, si fermarono lì, lo trovarono lì, e lo presero. Ammazzarono. Ora, se l’ammazzarono lì laggiù ce l’hanno portato morto, se no, ce l’hanno portato, non so com’era o non me lo ricordo ora, quella cosa lì on me la ricordo bene.
EL: Ma sapeva una cosa della forchetta?
DDC: Ah, ma della forchetta che la, sì, ma quella, allora, allora, perché l’han trovato, eccovedi, ora me l’hai messo in mente, lo trovarono a mangiare e lu pover’omo mangiava la forchetta, e l’ammazzarono e la forchetta gliel’avevino infilata, pover’omo, sì. Erino, erino cose brutte a quell’ora lì, sì.
EL: Invece il camion?
DDC: Eh?
EL: Il camion mitragliato?
DDC: E il camion mitragliato, ma più che quelle cose però, più che un camion grosso era na macchina sempre da soldato si vedeva, era lì davanti dove c’è quella marginetta.
EL: No, no, ma dico, quello mitragliato dagli aerei.
DDC: Ora quello non me lo ricordo come
FC: In generale si ricorda per esempio degli aerei che mitragliavano, dei bombardamenti?
DDC: Ma quello, allora un camion che mitragliarono, la prima cosa che si fece che erimo io e lo zio Luigi, eravamo alle pecore, avemmo portato le pecore quaggiù nella selva che là c’è la dove si scende il monte di, per andare a Camaiore la. Noi si chiamava la Girata del Giannini perché lì c’era la cosa, la Signori Giannini, che a quell’ora c’era la villa di questi signori. E questa selva noi dove si mandava le pecore era vicina che come dì là c’è la villa, come fosse là, è la villa e qui, noi c’eravamo con le pecore e lì c’era la strada che passava e saliva sul monte di Montemagno. Allora quando un camion passava, eravamo vicini da questa curva e a parte che c’erano castagne, c’erino gli alberi e tutto quanto però la curva la rimaneva visente che voglio dire e noi, quando si vede questi. Nel frattempo arrivano questi aerei, arrivano questi aerei e là c’era questo camion, proprio a questa curva lì e il camion quando sentì gli aerei si fermò, si fermò lì, eh, oh, non c’era modo e lì era tutto scoperto. Questi cami fecero la picchiata, incominciarono a mitragliare questo camion, noi io e il fratello più piccolino c’avevamo le pecore allora, non so se ne ha raccontato a te, queste pecore, perché cami, e gli aerei quando fanno le picchiate poi, venivino bassi, venivino bassi chequasi quasi pareva che ti vedessero perché lì per, per cosa questo camion, [mimics the noise of a diving airplane] pecore spariti no. Oddio, si chiamava Luigi il mio fratello lì, che eravamo insieme, era più piccolino di me, le pecore sparite, non si sapeva dove erino andate a finì. Oh Luigi, ma noi si va a, andiamo a casa, andiamo a casa e si parte. Piglio mio fratello che era più piccolino di me per la mano e su attraverso per la vigne, per le cose, si arriva a, sì ma si andava per venì a casa, come si fa a dì alla mamma che le pecore non c’è più? E ndov’è queste pecore, ndov’è queste pecore, come si fa a dirglielo. Quando s’arriva a casa, prima d’andare a casa, si passa dall’ovile dove avevamo le pecore, no. Le pecore erano già tutte là suddentro! Si pigiavano l’una con l’altro, si pigiati, io ve ‘vrei fatto vedè, si erano ricosate tutte insieme, avevino avuto paura anche loro perché quando questi aerei facevino, un po’ bassi così, voglio dì, [mimics the noise of a diving airplane] per cosà quel camion. No, io quelle pecore ve l’avrei fatto vedè. Eppure presero la, erimo lontani, perché ora lei non lo sa ma di laggiù dalla curva del Giannini arrivà alle capanne, un è lì, come si fa, si diceva lo zio Luigi, oh Luigi, ma come si fa a dire alla mamma che un si sà dove sono andate le pecore? Come si fa? Io ero più grandina, come si fa andargliela a dì? E lo so, diceva mio fratello tutto calmo così eh, oh, c’è da dirglielo [laughs], c’è da dirglielo. Lo so che c’è da dirglielo, ma come si fa? E invece, quando s’arrivò a casa, lei pensi no, le pecore erano tutte dentro, una pigiata col culo nell’altro, sì n’avrei fatto vedè, pareva un gomitolo dallo spavento che avevino avuto anche loro. Perché questi aerei per fà la picchiata su quel, venivino proprio, ci sarebbe insomma lo potevi toccare, potevi prendere, una cosa così non si può scordà.
FC: E si ricorda degli altri episodi dove c’erano gli aerei? Degli altri momenti?
DDC: No, degli aerei.
FC: Così, che mitragliavano?
DDC: No, succedeva che, ad esempio quando hanno anche, mi pare anche che abbiano bombardato anche Viareggio qualche volta ecco, però noi stando lassù si poteva vedere questi aerei che facevino, si diceva delle volte, vedi stanno facendo la picchiata, si diceva tra noi ragazzi, perché [mimics noise of diving plane] e così o tiravino le bombe, ecco, quello sì. Però più vicini no [coughs] da noi.
FC: Ho capito, ho capito.
DCC: Quello era [laughs].
FC: E invece, ma lei lo sapeva chi erano questi aerei? Cioè chi è che li guidava? Chi è che faceva queste cose?
DCC: No, no, quello io non lo sapevo, allora prima di tutto
FC: Nessuno gliel’aveva spiegato?
DCC: No, che c’erano sopra come dì, dei soldati che guidavano l’aereo, quello sì, però non sapevo altro ecco.
FC: OK.
DCC: Perché le dico anche un discorso. Allora, ora in tutte le case ci sono le televisioni c’è, però voglio dire noi non ci sapevano, non si sapevano le cose ecco.
FC: E lei andava a scuola, in quel periodo lì?
DDC: E io in tempo, dunque la guerra c’è stata nel? ’40-’45, nel ’45 son passati di lassù. Ecco io però allora nel quarant, che ad esempio le dirò una cosa. Io ho fatto soltanto la terza elementare. Perché lì al paese facevano solo, vedi dopo, dopo no, dopo fecero, hanno fatto anche fino alla quinta però lì ci facevano fino alla terza elementare. Che succedeva? Chi voleva continuare per fare fino alla quinta, c’era da andare o a Valpromaro o alla Tirelici. Allora chi c’aveva la bicicletta, chi ci poteva che è, va bene, se no, si accontentavino della terza elementare. E infatti, io ho fatto solo la terza elementare.
FC: Prima della guerra quindi.
DDC: Sì, sì, prima della guerra.
EL: Prima della resistenza, perché sì, sì perché, prima della guerra.
DDC: Eh oh.
EL: Eh sì, perché sei del ’32.
DDC: Io sono del ’32 e la guerra nel ’40-’44 voglio dire, la peggio qui tra noi è passata nel ’44.
EL: Sì, sì, sì.
DDC: E allora chi voleva continuare, chi poteva continuare, c’era da andare a fare la quarta e quinta a Valpromaro o alla Tivaelici. Allora per quel che riguarda i nostri fratelli che si, coso l’han fatta alla cosa, Vergilio, l’han fatta alla Tivaelici. Invece dopo, hanno fatto, la quarta e la quinta la facevano anche lì alla scuola a Montemagno, infatti Luigi, lo zio Luigi e Aldo l’hanno fatta lì la quarta e la quinta che mi ricordo, per fare la quarta e la quinta a Luigi c’era una maestra tedesca a insegnarli. Che era cattiva da morire, che li picchiava, che una volta con una cosa, che poi lo zio Luigi era, boh non ce n’era, non ce n’era davvero, e n’aveva con, con una stecca di legno n’aveva picchiato su una cosa, aveva fatto male a un unghia, ora non mi ricordo, guarda, era insomma così. Quando venne a casa, che era buono lo zio Luigi, lo zio Aldo era un pochino più vivace, ma lo zio Luigi era un ragazzo che non ce n’era davvero, eh mio fratello. Allora, ma lei era cattiva, siccome poi parlava più tedesco che italiano, non la intedevino bene, lei voleva essere capita, voleva, non aveva quella cosa di dire, ma io parlo con dei bimbetti, voglio dire, che pretendo, no? No, no. Lei picchiava, c’aveva una stecca di legno, ma tipo un bastone no così e li picchiava e n’aveva picchiato su un unghia lo zio Luigi e quest’unghia mi sembra, era andata tutta, no. Lo zio Vergilio, quando vide che questo, a questo figliolo n’aveva accusato mezzo un unghia ma poi li s’era diventato tutto nero perché le unghie son delicate, con la stecca, che poi lo zio Luigi era buono, era un ragazzo, no, non ce n’era, Aldo no, lo zio Aldo era più vivace ma lo zio Luigi era un santo davvero. San Luigi Gonzaga delle volte si diceva, era così davvero eh. Allora, quando venne a casa che vide questo dito sfatto, lo zio Vergilio va laggù, trappò la chiappa per il collo, che sia la prima e ultima volta perché te insegno, mi fa, e poi non so chi salvò sennò la guantava per il collo sta maestra insomma che poi ti rovinavi perché voglio dì. Ma insomma, siamo così.
FC: E poi, lei prima a un certo punto ha detto che dopo un po’ sono arrivati dei tedeschi vicino, no, alla casa dove stava lei? Non ho capito se era lo stesso di quello che cercava il pane oppure se erano degli altri?
DDC: No, no, ora però che n’ho raccontato che facevano i rastrellamenti, in quel punto lì?
FC: No, in generale, se c’erano dei, se lei ha avuto a che fare altre volte con dei tedeschi? Se.
DCC: Eh ,tedeschi passavino mille volte davanti a casa, così e cosà, eh, voglio dire, di che, che l’avevino ammazzati il coso l’ho detto quel discorso lì ecco. E poi c’era una villa vicina come dì, come ti ho detto io, quella è come fosse da casa mia e là c’erino proprio tedeschi, ha capito? Eh, oh, che facevano a venir qua e andà? Camminavino tante volte su e giu però insomma ecco un c’è più stato delle cose così.
FC: Ho capito.
DDC: Da quella volta lì che ammazzarono quelli lì dopo voglio dire non c’è più stato. E dopo poverini venivino la gente a vedere perché sapevino per esempio, c’è, n’avevino ammazzato che era gente di, uomini di Stiava che l’avevino presi, l’avevino ammazzati là e quell’altro era da n’altra parte perché lì facevino i rastrellamenti e poi li chiappavino perché venivan in mente. Dicevino loro qui si va [unclear]. Erano tutti partigiani secondo loro anche se non erino perché quella gente lì poverino non erino partigiani.
FC: E invece di fascisti?
DDC: Ma fascisti nel paese, nel paese?
FC: Fascisti nel senso italiani, sì, fascisti che, non i tedeschi, i fascisti se venivano a, non so.
DDC: No, fascisti anche nei paesi allora c’era un discorso c’era sempre per dire il capo dei fascisti, quelli che contavino logico che, che poi facevano come ti potrei dire ad esempio il quattro novembre che facevino la, che uscivano fuori, facevino, andavano giù per la strada un bel terzo e poi si rigiravino insomma quando facevino quelle dimostrazioni lì, se ad esempio, tutti non c’andavano, guai, ma quelli non, ecco, erano proprio quelli del paese che ce l’avevino con te perché magari non la pensavi come lui, hai capito? Allora, così, così. Allora, ma proprio un tempo proprio de coso, prendevano un tempo proprio de famoso del fascismo, riprendevino chi non era andato, c’era de, il quattro novembre, faccio per dire, ora un discorso del genere e chi non c’andava, allora andavino a prender a casa e poi gli n’davino l’olio di ricino lì, ecco, tutte quelle cose lì. E nei paesi più che nelle città. Perché c’era sempre quello che ce l’aveva con quello là perché, hai capito, così. Così.
FC: Capito. E lei si ricorda quando è finita la guerra?
DDC: Ora quello, io non lo ricordo.
FC: Cioè, cosa, se è cambiato qualcosa, non proprio il giorno, magari non proprio il giorno preciso preciso. Però se c’è stato un momento in cui lei aveva capito che la guerra era finita?
DDC: Allora, allora, quando insomma era finita la guerra, questo me lo ricordo. Allora, dice, ma lo sai che vengono, oggi, dice, vengono gli Americani a Stiava, faccio per dì. Allora noi si scese il bosco, salgo a Stiava, infatti nel frattempo erano arrivati questi Americani, questi cosi, ci fu, la gente l’acclamava tutti insomma, quel discorso lì sì me lo ricordo però così come, comunque ci s’andò.
FC: E c’era andata.
DDC: Sì, ci sono andata, sì ci s’andò. Eh certo.
FC: E poi cos’è successo, cos’è successo dopo qunado è finita la guerra? Come sono cambiate le cose?
DDC: Eh, dopo allora abbiamo cominciato voglio dire, meno male questo, meno male quell’altro, voglio dire non c’era più il coso di rimpiattarsi, era tutta un’altra cosa. Eh, dopo quando ci furono.
FC: E’ tornata nella casa?
DDC: Sì, allora, il papà che eravamo andati tipo uno perché i tedeschi li prendevino, li fucilavino, li cosavino e erino andati lassù come detto sopra Gombitelli. Allora, quando furono, quando ci furono, voglio dire che siamo stati salvati allora ognuno è ritornato nelle sue case e abbiamo ricominciato quello che si faceva prima, voglio dire, ha capito la gente così e ha ripreso il suo modo di fare voglio dire.
FC: Quindi non si ricorda tipo questi famosi tedeschi che stavano nella villa quando sono andati via?
DDC:Eh no, allora,
FC: No, così, chiedo.
DDC: Quello non lo ricordo ma quando fu quell’affare lì, che cominciarono e che sono andati via, insomma hanno liberato queste case che avevino occupato loro, insomma così. Quello non ricordo altro, ecco.
FC: E la vita quindi, non so, è ritornato tutto come era prima?
DDC: Eh insomma, piano piano, voglio dire.
FC: Cosa, si ricorda qualcosa in particolare?
DDC: Eh c’erano, c’era anche lì vicino alla casa nostra c’era venuti degli sfollati di Viareggio che poverini insomma cioè poi un po’ nelle città bombardavano ma insomma e dopo sono ritornati ognuno a casa sua voglio dire, piano piano insomma. Ora quanti giorni c’avranno messo non lo so ma insomma [laughs], il discorso così. E lì, questi lì che avevano ammazzato lì vicini poi allora li vennero a bruciare questi, questi sette che ammazzarono lì vicino a casa mia. Ci son venuti, io chi era non lo so, senz’altro gente che voglio dire, gente apposta per, son venuti e l’hanno perché piano piano s’erano, ecco così.
FC: Nessuno li aveva sepolti?
DDC: Sono stati bruciati. E poi quello che c’era successo poi [unclear], quello non me lo ricordo comunque. Ma quelli lì poverini.
EL: Nessuno, ti ha chiesto se li avevano sepolti. No.
FC: Non li avevano sepolti?
DDC: No, no, no, erano là, erano rimasti, no, perché lì, vennero presi perché non è che per esempio erano stati ste cose lì e poi il giorno dopo sono andati via. Allora sono venuti a prenderli e li han portarli via ma gente non so, del comune, chi c’è venuto quello non lo ricordo. E parte erino già un poco posati se l’han bruciati, quello non ricordo. Non lo ricordo bene, direi delle bugie. Non me lo ricordo a modo quella cosa lì.
FC: E lei, lei dopo la guerra le è capitato spesso di ripensare alla guerra?
DDC: Eh, viene spesso da ripensare! Voglio dire allora, ora no, ora sono passati già qualche anno no, ma sul primo così se ne riparlava tante volte. Se ne riparlava, oddio ma ti ricordi quello ma quell’altro ma come è successo, ecco. Quella cosa lì sì, quello me lo ricordo bene quel discorso lì che ne è stato riparlato parecchie volte e insomma, eh allora.
FC: Si parlava anche degli americani, degli inglesi, dei, dei?
DDC: Sì, ma quando son venuti loro che voglio dire hanno occupato il paese insomma anche loro ma era già tutto differente. Non era un’affare come lì al tempo dei tedeschi insomma no.
EL: E che vi hanno dato gli americani? Vi avevano portato delle cose, no. Che sono, delle coperte, le calze.
DDC: Le coperte c’erino, piu che altro le coperte.
EL: Sì, sì. Ma non anche le calze di nylon?
DDC: Ora io quelle non me le ricordo e ci stà che
EL: Che la nonna te le tirò via.
DDC: No, ma quelle lì un l’avevino portate loro.
EL: Ah.
DDC: No, no, no, quelle lì, le calze fine?
EL: Sì.
DDC: No, no, quelle lì è un passaggio della nonna, che ero già giovanetta a quell’ora sì. Ero pronta, andava alla messa, prima lei andava alla prima messa, perché c’era la prima la mattina presto e dopo noi invece ci si andava più tardi. Che succedeva? Succedeva che noi si stava a casa, c’era la mia sorella più grande e la su nonna, che lei era la più grande di tutti e c’avevimo le bestie, c’era la mucca, c’eran le pecore, c’era il maialino, avevimo di tutto e non ci mancava nulla, non ci mancava nulla [laughs]. E le persone più anziane andavano alla prima messa e noi invece ci piaceva di più andare all’ultima messa, che c’eran le undici. Allora, quando loro andavino via noi si facevi te fa quella cosa, te fà quell’altra, la nonna faceva le cose più pesanti e io invece quelle più, ma insomma, via te fà questo te fa quel. Era l’ora della messa, era l’ora della messa e ero sù in camera che, allora avevo le calze, le calze fine, no? Le calze fine e le avevo lasciate così sulla seggiola, come si fà così, di un salotto, scendo le scale, scendo le scale ma avevo il sottabito. Ma lei pensi che il sottabito, quei sottabiti di una volta, che poi la mia nonna era sarta, e le facevino, ma no quelle, quei, quello spallino fino così, piccino, sì quelle cosine grandi così, un pochettino scollate ma non troppo, così, quelli erino sottabiti che poi la mamma era, la nonna Ancilla era sarta e si faceva, se li faceva da sè insomma. Allora, io ero a prepararmi e avevo lasciato le calze, era sul primo che mi mettevo le calze fini e l’avevo lasciate in salotto così attraverso alla seggiola. Scendo le scale, ma ero in sottabito. Lei era giù in cucina. Io chiudo l’occhio e la vedo. Scendo le scale e lei in fondo alle scale. Te dove andresti in questa maniera qui? Sono andà a prendermi le cose, vedilo là, vedi, vedete perché si dava del voi, vedete mamma, è là sulla seggiola là in salotto. Vai, te le porto io le calze. Dio bono, ma son già qui, e che mi ci vuole ad andà a prender le calze là? Cammina! Va in camera, vergognosa! Ma santo cielo, ma che ho fatto di male? Va in camera, ti potrebbe vedè tu fratello! Ora, se mi vedeva mi fratello con la, con i sottabiti fatti da lei perché era sarta la mi mamma, ma i sottabiti di una volta non se li scordi, eh. Avevino come minimo le spalle grandi così, qui quando era tanto era scollato qui, eh. Se mi vedeva mi fratello in sottabito. No, io chiudo l’occhi e vedo la mi mamma, vai, te le porto io le calze, dio bono, ma sono già qui, era in mezzo a scala che ci vol a piglià le, no! Ti potrebbe vedè tu fratello. Ci sarà stato, ragazzi, ora a parte tutto, ma allora nelle famiglie era così eh. Ora, se mi vedeva mi fratello.
EL: Insomma le calze te le ha portate?
DDC: Sì, le calze me le portò però mi fece rimontare le scale e a un certo punto se no poteva venirmi. No ma seria perché te.
EL: Però le calze, però non bruciò le calze di nylon?
DDC: Le calze, quando, no, non le bruciò, le strappò, le strappò. E queste sarebbino le calze? Perché calze fini allora, avevimo le calze fini perché sennò si dovevino portà fine ma già più grossine c’erano quelle no fine fine come c’eran ora voglio dì perché ero già giovanetta mica avevimo quelle lì già un po’ più, capito? E l’avevo su questa seggiola in salotto ma quando lei le prese in mano le strappò, e queste sarebbino le calze? Era così, era così. E in sottabito mi poteva vedè mio fratello.
FC: E quanti anni aveva quando è successo questo?
DDC: Ora io con esattezza io non lo ricordo insommma con esattezza ma ero e po’, ma avevo incominciato a portare le calze fini. Avrò avuto senz’altro, non so, una quindicina d’anni, voglio dì, così. Mi poteva vedè mio fratello. Ora, dice, poteva, al limite poteva ma se mi vedeva mio fratello in sottabito. Allora era così. E allora nelle famiglie c’era questo rispetto qui. C’era, era così guarda e non potevi mica camminare e allora ma le calze fine. Ma scherzi davvero. M’ero permessa di comprarmi le calze fini [laughs].
FC: Quindi lei lavorava già all’epoca?
DDC: Eh?
FC: Lavorava?
DDC: Ma allora non si faceva, ora voglio dire non, lavoravo ma in casa ero sempre voglio dire, si faceva di tutto perché si faceva, anch’io ho cominciato presto anche a cucire perché anche la mamma era sarta. La mamma era sarta però insomma io dopo mi sono cosata sempre di più voglio dire. Ma tante cose si sapevino già fare da lei, perché per esempio e fai via, io faccio [unclear] un po’ m’è sempre garbato a cucire voglio dire. Ero, voglio dire, non ero, la nonna, la tu nonna era più robusta di me, io invece sono sempre stata più magra, invece ora sì sono più grassa, ma allora sono sempre stata più magrina. E la mi mamma mi diceva che le persone bionde, più delicate di quell’altre, te no, te sta tranquilla, te fà così, te fà così. Me diceva così.
FC: Non era d’accordo.
DDC: No! Era vero che io non avevo la forza perché la su nonna, quel che faceva la mi sorella, è una cosa, ma davvero eh.! Ma non è che non lo comandasse nessuno, lo faceva proprio spontaneamente da sè. Per esempio, i nostri, sia mi papà sia mi fratello sia il nonno avevino la falegnameria e non ci lavorava nessuno sul terreno. E noi il terreno che s’aveva si chiamava allopre si diceva allora, si chiamava vello per vangà, cosa per fà il solco per fà, per seminare per, perché oh tanto terreno si faceva di tutto, voglio dire, era così. Lei, la mi sorella, le la sapeva fà tutto. Quando era fatto la cosa più grossa di vangar anche la terra, lei faceva solchi, seminava La cosa, faceva tutto, tutto, la nonna faceva tutto. Ma io ero magrina, ero così che [laughs] un avevo la forza della mi sorella. Mi davo da fà perché volevo fà quel che faceva lei [laughs] sì perché quando siamo ragazzi e le impastava il pane, le faceva il pane, le, io non ho mai fatto il pane in casa mia.
FC: No?
DDC: Mai, non ho mai impastato il pane.
FC: E come mai?
DDC: Eeeh, non avevo la forza perché, eh, diceva la mamma, te sei troppo mingherlina, non puoi perché quando faceva il pane si faceva,
FC: Come facevano?
DDC: Lei faccia conto che si faceva una decina o dodici pani ma quelli lunghi così casalinghi eh. E ciavevimo , c’è sempre lassù alla casa paterna e si cosava questo, faceva questo pane la mi sorella che lei è na forza e io,
FC: A mano?
DDC: Sì, sì, sì, sì.
FC: O usavate qualche strumento?
DDC: No, no, no, no, tutto a mano eh, tutto a mano. Lei faceva, sapeva fà tutto la mi sorella. A fà tutto, davvero, e allora [unclear] e allora ma io siccome volevo fare quello che faceva lei perché visto quando siamo bimbette ma perché io non lo devo fà? E allora diceva la mi mamma, ma te non puoi, non hai la forza che ha lei. Perché la nonna era brava per fà quelle cose lì, era più robusta invece e mi diceva: ‘le persone bionde un han na forza così’. Ma che vuol dì na forza? Dicevo io, [laughs] dicevo che vuo dì. Io volevo fà quel che faceva mi sorella ma niente da fà, non lo potevo fà. Ma vedi te, sei più mingherlina, sei mingherlina, mi diceva e io ero arrabbiata, non volevo che mi dicesse così [laughs]. E siccome sia mio papà sia mio fratello sia voglio dire facevano i falegnami e anche per lavorare la terra perché c’è l’abbiamo ma, ce n’avevimo tanta, si chiamava le persone apposta per fare queste cose. Allora quando era a lavorare invece per fà il solco che la terra è bella sciolta e viene lavorata, ma lei, la mi sorella ci faceva il solco, seminava veloce e lo volevo fà anch’io. Io non ho mai impastato il pane, eh oh. Ma te, siccome sei più bionda, sei più mingherlina, vedi le gente bionde o n’han la forza che hanno quelle more, ma perché uno deve avè la forza [laughs], no me faceva. Hai visto quando siamo bimbette che vogliamo fà quel che fà quell’altro, lo vogliamo fà anche noi. È così.
FC: Va bene. Se vuole aggiungere qualcos’altro? Qualche altra cosa che le viene in mente sulla guerra?
DDC: Ma io non mi ricordo, non so. Le ho raccontato quel discorso lì che si dovette partire, andare lassù sopra Gombitelli, al Ferrandino, ci si portò, ci s’aveva le pecore, ci s’aveva quella roba eh, c’andò mi papà, voglio dire, ci si portò anche quelle lì, c’andò lei lassù sempre la mi sorella più grande che era insomma col mi papà lassù voglio dire. Quando erano qui erano a fare, che ve sò dì, avevamo fatto anche, avevamo, io no perché. L’ho detto, ero una bimbetta avevino fatto anche un coso, un rifugio nel campo lì sotto che si, entravino da una parte che c’era un poggetto alto così e qua c’era il campo. E di lì c’avevino fatto il coso entravino lì sotto però come facevino a stà continuamente?
FC: Com’era fatto questo rifugio, proprio?
DDC: Questo rifugio era fatto dentro come tipo una stanza e poi era tutto cosato con le cose di, con le tavole, con le tavole di legno. E lì dentro era come una stanza ma certo.
FC: Era scavata?
DDC: Eh certo! Era scavato sì.
FC: E quante persone ci stavano?
DDC: Eh ma quattro cinque persone perché era un bell’affare grande così eh. Non sempre ci potevino dormì perché insomma anche dormì così sottoterra in quella maniera lì. Fu così che poi era una cosa insomma e andarono a finire sopra Gombitelli dopo il mi papà insomma gente lì via.
FC: Ah, era per nascondersi?
DDC: Nascondersi perché facevano
FC: Gli uomini?
DDC: Eh certo!
FC: Quindi lei non c’è andata, non c’andava dentro?
DDC: No, no, no, noi no, solo gli uomini. Prima dormivano nel bosco perché c’abbiamo boschi vicini ma con le coperte dormire nel bosco insomma, e io la mattina quando m’hanno detto andava a portà, andava a portare da mangiare il caffè, voglio dire, oppure a mezzogiorno la minestra tutto quanto, che mi mettevo il sacchetto sotto la gonnella per portargli e loro dormivino nel bosco. Ma han fatto una vita. Eh. E tutti quelli lì vicini, voglio dire, di lì, lassù dove si stava lassù c’eravamo, e sette famiglie mi pare. E ogni famiglia c’era, c’avevino la persona maschio voglio dire e partivino, chi andava di lì, chi andava di là, e sul primo che facevino i rastrellamenti che noi ragazzi s’andava lassù in cima e si vedevino quando le macchine partivino per i rastrellamenti, via! Scappate! Scappate! Magari andavino via mezzi nudi, si vestivino per il mondo, davvero, e dopo cinque minuti arrivavino i tedeschi a fare cosa. E noi erimo sempre.
FC: Cosa dicevate, ai tedeschi?
DDC: Nulla noi, noi erimo bimbetti.
FC: E non vi chiedevano dove erano gli uomini?
DDC: No, voglio dire a noi bimbetti no, erimo, voglio dire.
FC: Non si ricorda?
DDC: Voglio dire ai grandi, magari alle donne, magari l’avran detto ma e mi dicevino quando, a delle volte mi dicevino, come dì, che erino andati alla guerra, che non c’erino a casa, così. Erino andati alla guerra, eh, oh! A quello lì che t’ho detto che nun ce la fece ad andar via che la su sorella entrò tra una materassa e l’altra, la su sorella a sedere e faceva a vista lì a dò la poppa alla bimba. A sedere, entrino i tedeschi [unclear] al mondo e lui era tra. Eppure ragazzi a raccontarlo non ci si crede, ci si scriverebbe davvero un libro. È vero, è vero!
FC: E quindi adesso, quello che pensa lei della guerra, è cambiato rispetto all’epoca? Cosa pensa adesso della guerra?
DDC: Ma ora io, a dir la verità, insomma io penso che ora son tanti, son passati tanti anni voglio dire,
FC: Le dico le emozioni.
DDC: Certamente quando ne parlo, voglio dire, per me è come rivivere quel momento eh, eh, oh! Ma io delle volte penso, mi viene pensato come si fece a attraversare la strada maestra con le pecore per andare a Gombitelli. Perché lì lassù dove si abita noi, alle capanne ci chiamino eccetera, scendi giù in paese, e poi s’attraversa la strada e si prende la strada che va sù, lì accanto alla scuola c’è una strada grande che va a finire a Gombitelli ma poi quando siamo a Gombitelli per andare al Ferrandino dove si portò noi le bestie, ce n’era, c’era da camminare un altro bel pezzo eh, da Gombitelli al Ferrandino. Eppure. E delle volte dico io, ma come, io non ricordo, ecco quella lì quante volte me lo sono domandato che non sono mai riuscita a capire come si fece a attraversare la strada maestra per andare lassù. Perché da lì, da dove si abita noi c’è da scendere giù dove c’è la chiesa lì al paese, a Montemagno e poi c’è da prendere la strada per andare a Gombitelli. Come si fece, come è stata fatta quella cosa lì, me lo sono domandato tante volte, non l’ho mai capita.
FC: Perché non se lo ricorda?
DDC: Non me lo ricordo. Non lo ricordo perché lì da tutte le parti c’erano i tedeschi [unclear] a Montemagno era pieno così di tedeschi eh. C’era lì davanti alla chiesa c’erano i, nel coso del piazzale davanti alla chiesa c’erino proprio le cose dei tedeschi. Lì dove c’era la, che ora c’è la, come si chiama la cosa lì che c’ha Oriano?
EL: Bottega.
DDC: La bottega là che ci vanno a mangià la gente là.
EL: Sì, sì.
DDC: Più che bottega.
EL: Sì, sì, Le Meraviglie.
DDC: Le Meraviglie. Lì c’era, anche lì c’erino tedeschi da tutte le parti. Allora non c’era, c’era questo coso vuoto che i padroni erano in America e lì occuparono tutto questi tedeschi. Avevino, ti ho detto, [unclear] tutte le carte che erino lì. E loro sapevino, come trovavi una casa vuota, sta tranquilla, non chiedevino il permesso a nessuno. E poi ammazzavino le bestie [laughs], trovavino da mangià. Eh beh, ce n’erano tanti di tedeschi a Montemagno, non so come mai.
EL: Perché era la via che andava a Lucca forse.
DDC: E poi, partigiani, partigiani, come avevino paura dei partigiani però.
FC: I tedeschi.
DDC: I tedeschi avevino paura, anche quando venivino in casa, che noi erimo bimbetti no, e ‘te partigiani, no? Partigiani! Partigiani!’ E noi si diceva: ‘No! No!’. Quello si sapeva anche se eravamo bimbetti di dì di no. Di dir di no dei partigiani.
FC: E aveva paura dei tedeschi?
DDC: Avevimo paura davvero dei tedeschi. Insomma anche lì da noi averci fatto delle cose lì, aver ammazzato quella gente lì voglio dire, anche lì li ho visti tutti eh insomma. E quando eravamo là, perché si doveva, avevano attaccato fogli anche a questa villa, avevino attaccato fogli alle porte che noi si doveva sfollare. Si doveva sfollare perché lì tiravino all’aria tutto, no. Che di lì si andò alla casa là al Meschino. S’andò alla casa la, lo sai no dov’è questa casa al Meschino? Ecco, la casa al Meschino che poi anche lì vennero i tedeschi allora come come ci trovarono là non si sa perché questa casa qui che dico io è la nel mezzo a vigneto e al bosco, ma lontano di lì dalla casa dove si stava noi. Eravamo sfollati tutti perché avevano attaccato fogli che avrebbero ammazzato tutti, di sfollare, di sfollare. Allora non si sapeva dove andare e si parte, si va tutti là a questa casa là nel bosco, ma è na casa grande e era su, era du piani, na casa sotto e sopra insomma e s’andò là. Ci portammo le cose più necessarie e s’andò là. La nonna invece non volle mai venire, è sempre stata a casa lì. Invece quando vennero là i tedeschi, che si misero tutti in fila, che si dovevino fucilare tutti, perché c’avevino scoperto che noi eravamo là e dicevino che eravamo partigiani. ‘Tutti partigiani! Partigiani! Partigiani!’ Ma poi c’erimo bimbetti, c’era lo zio Luigi che era più piccolino di me. Allora ci misero tutti lì in piazza davanti alla casa, non so se eravamo una trentina, sì, una trentina eravamo sì, allora io abbracciai mio fratello e lì tutti i tedeschi intorno col fucile puntato. Abbracciai lo zio Luigi e girai le spalle al tedesco perché secondo me, secondo me, ammazzavino me e ma, con le spalle, ma io Luigi lo salvavo, te pensa. E invece che successe? Successe, eravamo lì tutti pronti che loro pronti, che si sapeva che quella gente non perdonavino. Nel frattempo scende di lassù, perché noi eravamo così giù che c’era questa casa e poi c’era un vigneto su che andava un popolino su così. Da questo vigneto che c’era nel mezzo una bella cosa, stradina che veniva giù, vennero, incominciarono a venì tre o quattro uomini, di lassù ma vestiti normali, no tedeschi. Allora noi si dice, questi ragazzi, ‘Oddio partigiani, oddio partigiani, oddio partigiani’, e quei tedeschi che erano lì ebbero, meno male! Ebbero paura, invece di venire insù vicino perché il coso, c’era la strada che veniva giù così, questi tedeschi incominciarono a saltà poggio e piano giù per il bosco. E noi [laughs] e meno male, se no c’avevino messo tutti in fila, si dovevino essere fucilati.
FC: Come mai vi avevano messo in fila?
DDC: E perché noi erimo partigiani o c’erimo figlioli dei partigiani, perché erimo là a questa casa nel mezzo a un vigneto nel mezzo così, non eravamo lì più alle case nostre.
FC: Quindi erano bambini, donne?
DDC: Bambini e donne, bambini e donne. E persone anziane messe giù che su una sdraia che poverini un camminavino.
FC: E questi uomini qua che scendevano dal monte, chi erano?
DDC: E quie, no, io non ho mai capito chi erano questi uomini ma questi uomini quando furono così che scendevino giù questo, perché erano, noi erimo qui ma poi c’era questo, questa salita che non era lì vicina, era un bel pezzo di lassù venivan giù e si vedevino sti omini scendere giù vestiti popo’, e lì si incomincià a dì: ‘Oddio partigiani! Se dio vuole partigiani!’. Questi tedeschi saltà poggi e piano e andà per ingiù per il bosco, non s’è più visti dove andati a finì perché avevino paura anche loro dei partigiani [unclear]. E meno male, meno male, ci fu quell’affare lì sennò, erimo già belli e pronti lì. E io avevo abbracciato lo zio Luigi e m’ero, avevo girato le spalle io verso i tedeschi che avevino il fucile puntato e io, secondo me, lo salvavo il mio fratello più piccolino di me. Dissi, me m’ammazzino ma mio fratello no. E invece meno male, ma c’erimo in tanti lì eh [laughs] e insomma. Erino momenti brutti. Erano momenti brutti davvero.
FC: Va bene. Direi che, io la ringrazio perché c’ha raccontato delle cose bellissime e interessanti.
DDC: Bellissime [laughs] insomma.
FC: Sì, bellissime, insomma.
DDC: Bellissime [laughs], bellissime era meglio se non [unclear], era meglio se io n’avevo raccontà, oh, era meglio se n’avevo raccontato na barzelletta [laughs].
FC: Bellissime, nella prospettiva. Ci ha raccontato delle cose interessanti e molto utili, ecco, mettiamola così.
DDC: Sì e insomma così, poverina, quel che v’ho detto la verità perché è successo, voglio dì.
FC: No, no, certo, certo.
DDC: Ero bimbetta e è successo qualche anno fa, eh. È passato qualche giorno, insomma [laughs]. Però insomma grosso modo le cose quelle lì. Ora non mi posso essere ricordate le virgole, per l’amor di dio, però insomma. Così.
FC: Va bene. Grazie.
DDC: E così, eh. E questo era il paese lì a quell’ora.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Delia Del Corto
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Delia del Corto (b. 1932) remembers daily life in wartime Tuscany, living in a family of ten. Provides details on rural life, especially home bread making, and stresses the difficult coexistence with feared German troops. Mentions many anecdotes in the context of the Italian civil war: actions of the resistance, locals being strafed, round-ups, and the killing of 32 civilians as reprisal for the death of a German officer. Recollects the day she found herself under aircraft fire while she took sheep to pastures with her little brother. Describes the construction of a makeshift dug out in a field in which her father hid and recollects how she got caught in crossfire.
Creator
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Francesca Campani
Date
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2017-09-26
Format
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01:09:27 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Identifier
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ADelCortoD170926
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Coverage
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Civilian
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Resistance
round-up
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/285/3441/AKellyDV151201.1.mp3
c0fb4d38bd22cffa7ea449bfcb4e86d0
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/285/3441/PKellyDV1501.1.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kelly, Dennis Vaughn
Dennis Vaughn Kelly
Dennis V Kelly
Dennis Kelly
D V Kelly
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items concerning Flying Officer Dennis Vaughn Kelly (- 2019, 418751 Royal Australian Air Force) who served as a wireless operator on 467 Squadron Lancasters. His aircraft was shot down in July 1944 and crashed in France after which he evaded capture and returned to the United Kingdom. Collection consist of an oral history interview, telegrams, official letters and photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Denis Vaugh Kelly and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-12-01
2016-01-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kelly, D
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Des Kelly who was a 467 Squadron wireless operator and evader in World War Two. The interview is taking place in Denis’s house in Carrum Downs in South East Melbourne. My name is Adam Purcell and it is the 1st of December 2012 [2015?]. Des, I thought we’d start from the beginning. Can you tell us something about your early life, how and where you grew up and what you did before ‒?
DK: Firstly, I grew up in [unclear] Valley and I went to a school there that was so small they had only two rooms in the school and they had four rows of desks. The small room had grade 1, 2, 3 and 4 grade with one teach and the big thing had 4,5,6,7, and 8 in that so that’s how small it was. I left there after I’d outgrown it and went to Box Hill High School for boys, high school, and then we went, we moved down to Cheltenham so I then went to Murray [?] High School and that’s where I finished my ‒. I was house captain, football captain, cricket captain and myself I was a prefect and we left all of that and I ‒. My father had a problem. He had 22,000 volts through him, he was an electrical engineer with [unclear] and he was immobilised for over twelve months and in those days there was no workers’ con [?] so our existence was pretty ‒, so anyway when I was grown I left and went and got a job and that was a job with [unclear] wines, spirits and grocery thing at er ‒. I can’t think of the name at the moment. They’re in Luke [?] Street in Melbourne. I applied to join the Air Force as soon as I was eighteen. I had a quarrel with my father whether I’d join or not but I didn’t get called up ‘til nine months later and because of the big gap I was told to go to the post office and learn Morse code. I didn’t do that because I wasn’t interested. I wanted to be a pilot, a fighter pilot. Anyhow, I was called up on the 19th June 1942 and went down to er, ‒, instead of the nice close one at Victoria, I went to Victor Harbour in South Australia, from there I went to Ballarat for the radio course. I was very hostile at not being picked for a pilot but they told me I had no depth perception. I didn’t believe that. I thought it was a lame excuse. I’ll come round to that later so I did six months at Ballarat doing radio course and then I went down to Sale and did my gunnery course down there and I didn’t have very much time after that when I was sent to Brisbane on a train. We got onto a tramp steamer called Eclipse [?] Fontagne [?] which was a Dutch one. We left from Brisbane, took nineteen days to get to Los Angeles because we were zig-zagging all over the place hoping not to be shot, not shot down, torpedoed. That was a pretty hazardous sort of journey because we were all packed in the hold, we were in the hold, all our hammocks in the hold, and that wasn’t much fun for those at the back. There was some smart bloke, I don’t know how he knew, because as soon as we got up to get to the ship he rushed off and got a crown and anchor thing and he made thousands because were paid in American dollars and anyhow we arrived in San Francisco on a train, on a Pullman train and none of us had ever seen that. We had an African American for each car and he made our beds and meals and he got our supplies where we stopped [unclear] on the way. We went right down to New Mexico round to ‒, and up to ‒, and we ended up at Camp Mile Standish in er, it’s north of New York, Mile Standish, yeah that was in Boston. There we were supposed to wait. We were told not to go out. But a few of us, four of us, got through a hole in the fence, got on a train and went to New York for two days and we didn’t sleep anywhere and we came back. Eventually, we were put on I think it was the Queen Mary, I’m pretty sure it was it was the Queen Mary, and we went over to England. We landed in Grangemouth [?] in Scotland and that was a horrendous voyage because it was just full of Americans and they were sleeping in the aisles. We had twelve of us in a really little cabin but for some reason, I don’t know how we were picked, each of us were picked to have a go at a submarine, to try and see if we could see a submarine and that was ridiculous, we were up where the captain was and we were just staring out, the seas were absolutely enormous. I’d never been so frightened even, actually when we got to Grangemouth [?] the bows of the Queen Elizabeth [?] was dented from the waves. From there we went down to Brighton and Brighton because of earlier the Germans coming over at the other place, I can’t remember the name of the place, and they shot it up at lunch time, so we were on watch on the top of the Hotel Metropol. Nothing came so then I started learning all over again. They sent me to North Wales, to Caernarvon, to start learning all about radios and what planes there were and general information about the RAF, ‘cause that’s the thing, the RAF, then we started doing all our individual things and we all came to a place called Lichfield and we all were there and a most ‒, I’m sure you must have heard this before, a most amazing thing happened, a pilot walked round and watched what the [unclear] were and asked, ‘Do you have a crew?’ In my case it was Tom Davies and I said, ‘No, I haven’t got a crew.’ He said, ‘Well, you have now. You’re wireless air-gunner with me,’ he says and he selected the crew. Now you wouldn’t believe it but we all clicked. It was a tremendous crew we had. Er ‒, we had a rear gunner Col Allen, he was the bloke that was shot up when we got shot down. We on our ‒, there’s some dispute about this and let me be clear on how our discharge certificate it got that we did thirty operations, actually Tom ‒, the crew did thirty operations, er ‒, we only did twenty-eight, Tom did two things, and I missed one because I’d been injured on a flight and they made me stop in hospital and so I missed a trip. But then it started and [laugh] we made a terrible start. Tom had done two dummy runs (that we called them) with other pilots see so he had two ops under him and so we got in a plane and went off down the runway and Tom couldn’t control the bomber. We were bouncing the thing and we tried to get up in that plane but they wouldn’t let us. They said, ‘It’s too late now,’ we’d never catch up, so Tom had something, we all did something that we got a name for but Tom was a poof pilot, he couldn’t fly the plane. Oh we ‒, before that, we went on a ‒, dumping leaflets over Paris. That didn’t count. Germans were [unclear] and then we got on and we did all these operations. About the time ‒, now about a few weeks before we were doing our last flight (which we didn’t know it would be) our mid-upper gunner got appendicitis, he lived in town [?], so he wasn’t with us when we got shot down. There was a Canadian, who was a flying officer, and he had a DFC, we never knew why. Anyhow, on 19th July we set off for a place called Revigny, or Revigny is what the French called it, and we had dropped our bombs and we’d just turned round making for home and then bang! We were hit from the tail and underneath so we guessed it was one of these upward flying cannons ‘cause none of us saw it. All my equipment and Mark the navigator’s equipment just exploded. I didn’t have to light [?] the rice paper thing ‘cause it all went up. Tom said, ‘Bail out! Bail out!’, so I had to get down on my back and I pulled the mid upper gunner’s legs to let him know I was out and I had the shock of my life when I saw him, nineteen year-old gunner, he was dead, and they always said he was the hardest to get out so that’s why I went down to help him but I couldn’t. So Tom was saying, ‘Bail out! Bail out!’ So I got to the edge, looked over, and we were at twenty-one thousand feet, and I looked down through the door and thought ‘No!’ by this time I had something [unclear] my parachute and my jacket, my bomber jacket, was smouldering, so I went to step out and then I remembered never [emphasis] step out of a Lanc, you gotta dive, and at my ‒, in effect I felt as though I was diving, diving off the roof of a high American, New York place. Anyhow, I’d had my hand ripped ‘cause we had a lot of feedback from the French, saying we find that the [unclear] tearing all their clothes ‘cause they got the D ring on the wrong side, ‘cause you picked that up and you put it on upside down, the D ring, so I grabbed the D ring before I got ‒. That dive I’ll never forget. Anyhow, next I knew I was falling, I was smoking and I pulled the rip cord at the exact second, [unclear] time it must have been, I hit the ground and it lifted me up and down when I hit the ground and flicked me then I came down. It did all the damage when it flicked me when I came down the second time when [unclear] but there I was and I just couldn’t believe it and I don’t know if it was lack of oxygen. It couldn’t have been the explosion of the ‘plane ‘cause the plane crashed and there’s [unclear] in there. Anyhow so I was frightened [emphasis]. I knew I couldn’t walk. They said I’d broken my spine, my legs just wouldn’t work, so I pulled myself up against a tree and sat there and then I heard a dog barking. What happened, it was Bill McGowan who’d gone another way and he was going through a farmhouse and the dog barked at him and I had ‒. You’ve probably never seen “The Hound of the Baskervilles”. It was a big German dog grabbing his throat and I was scared witless then, no doubt about it, but then it calmed down after that. [Unclear] and my wife’s stuck at home, wouldn’t know I’m here, she’ll think I’m dead, she’ll get the telegram, I can’t do anything about it, and I don’t know how long I was there, it couldn’t have been more than an hour or two and then I heard a crash, crash, through the bush and I thought that’s no one sneaking up, it’s only one person, it might be another, so I yelled out and it was Peter, the flight engineer, so I cried, ‘Thank goodness there’s someone here.’ We sat talking and about twenty minutes later we heard the same crash noise through the bush, and it was Mark Edgeley. So the three of us sat down to decide and I said, ‘Well look I can’t walk, you know, leave me and if you give me an undertaking that if you get back to tell my wife that I was alive at this stage.’ I didn’t know what was going to happen after that so they went off and the next day I decided I’d got to do something. I couldn’t walk so it was marshy ground fortunately and so I was dragging along [unclear] I thought it was, you know, five or six days, five out of [unclear], when I got back I checked with the French people, it was nothing like that. But I was pulling myself along in this ooze. I was drinking this horrible swamp water and then it came to a canal and I thought, ‘Right, this is good,’ and it had steep banks on either side, you know, so I got in the water and started backstroke and there was a long curve in the canal and when I came round ‒, actually now I know it was right next to where I was eventually hiding, there was two gendarmes there. We were told not to trust them so I turned round and tried to get out of the canal. Well, if you’ve ever tried to get out of a pool without using your legs, and this was a grassy slope, I lost my fingernails, I eventually got there and started pulling myself along and eventually came to a road and I started crossing the road and I just passed out. The Harley Street people said it was mind over matter. Your mind said, ‘You’re safe now.’ So that’s when I was really stuck. A Frenchman came along on a bike. It was early morning, he was going to work and the next thing I knew this Frenchman was pushing me with his foot on the road and I looked at him, I said, ‘Je suis Anglais, parachutist, Australien, [unclear],’ and he pulled out a bottle and I thought it would be wine. It wasn’t. It was beer. It was the only bottle of beer I’ve seen in France even when I went back I’d never seen one. But I drank the lot. Anyhow, he rolled me over into the ditch at the side of the road and off he went. What I didn’t call him, the bloody French, they’re cowards, they’ve never won anything, you know. And I thought, ‘I’m done, I can’t get out of this ditch. I’m gonna die there,’ and that was frightening. However, that night, which seemed to be days to me, but it was that night, he came back and lifted me out, he had two other people there, they put me on a bike, no, before they put me on the bike they stripped my uniform and gave me French civilian clothes, then put me on the bike with just the two legs just hanging down, took me down to a place which I now know was this Pargny-sur-Saulx and they put me in the lock-keeper’s house. What I saw of the canal was they used it going ‒, the canal went right through the German ‒ and there was a little lock there and they locked up with a small key and I couldn’t speak French and he couldn’t speak English but they took me in and then finally a couple of days later they got a doctor to come and see me. And the doctor said, ‘No, he’s got to go to hospital,’ and, you know, this French chap said, ’No, no, don’t let him go,’ and I was frightened to go to hospital ‘cause that meant Germans, so that was it, so they didn’t then. Now, I stuck with them, I’m not quite sure, maybe two or three weeks and then one night the French underground came for me, put me in a little box on the back of the trailer, the box trailer on the back of the bike, just a small one with bike wheels on and bent me over and tied me around and then put sacks over the top of me. I didn’t know where I was but the plane had been [unclear] it wasn’t very nice. However, they dropped me in a house and I got carried upstairs. This house, I still don’t know where it was, there was a space with steps to the room and they told me, ’Don’t ever try to open this door unless they’re coming for food because this dog will go for you.’ Anyhow, it must have been an American house at one stage ‘cause there was writing there, writing to America, and I never saw anyone from that day to this. They’d bring my food up and put it outside the door, then leave the dog at the top of the stairs and I could open the door and take the food. That was alright but I tried to open the door once when the food wasn’t there and it came roaring. Then a little later ‒. Time? I’d got no idea of time. A French, two French chaps came. You know, the [unclear] had a charcoal burner at the back of it, and they couldn’t speak English and I couldn’t speak French but they just told me I was going from this place and I didn’t mind that. This place wasn’t like Victoria [?]. We were talking to each other even though we couldn’t understand. But no one else, I was just isolated in this place. Anyhow, they took me out. It was late evening in summer and they put me in this cart and we were going along, I didn’t know where, and there was a whole load of Lancasters parked on each side of the road. The Germans had put, you know, wrecks that had been shot down. I thought, ‘Gee, that doesn’t look too well.’ And then just before it got dark there was a chap, he was in a sort of tractor, a very old-fashioned tractor, chugging along trying to cultivate his fields and then there was an American fighter pilot, he turned round and he saw him and he came down and blasted him up and these French [unclear] when I got to this and told me what had happened. They reckon the RAF, the RAF, had found out that I was going and this bloke ‒, and so they sent an American plane to shoot him up and he shot it up alright, killed the bloke. Anyhow I ended up, it was dark, in a hospital and I looked round, got off the bike, and I went up the stairs until I got to the caretaker’s room and then they put me in there and said ‘Bonjour.’ And off they went and this place there was a Frenchman and he had just got married, he was wanted by the Germans. He had a wanted sign there and they left me there for ten days. Now we got one meal in the morning and one at night. There was kerosene tin that was it our toilet for both of us. And I felt completely out of it and then the same people came and took me in the car and they were saying, you know, it was going to be goodbye for me, and we were going through a place, which I now believe was Vitry-le-Francois and we were passing a car getting towed the other way. And the blokes that had me were going, going crazy, you know, at the end of that street, they stopped and got me out, knocked on the door and a chap came out and he was a hunchback, completely with a hunchback, and they pointed, told him and pointed at me, they’d be back at 10 o’clock at night, they’d be back at 10 o’clock to pick me up. They never did because what all the fuss was about, that I was supposed to be taken back to ‒, as a whole lot of us were being flown back. Now I understand, according to the French, the Germans waited ‘til that plane was taking off and shot it down. Now whether that was true or not I don’t know but I [emphasis] never got there. This bloke, I slept there for two nights, he had a young baby and I mean a young baby, it wouldn’t be more than a month or two, he couldn’t speak but he started going like this and so I got the message so I started out. I didn’t have any idea how but I wanted to get back to Victors [unclear]. Anyhow I ran into a Yank, and at least I got to talk to somebody, and he said he’d been in a Thunderbolt and was shot down by an enemy 109 and they both landed in adjacent paddocks and he said, ‘I went and shot the German.’ And he said he’d been there almost nine months. So I said to myself, ‘He’s kept out of trouble for nine months.’ Instead of thinking, ’Well, what the hell’s he been doing for nine months?’ Anyhow, he’d gone what we called ‘a cropper’, yeah. When we were there he’d heard guns going and he’d go towards the guns [laugh] that way. Anyhow, this first day we met there was a small what we’d call café/sweetshop and they had some bread and we went in there together and bang! Two Germans came in. They just saluted. We were just saluting but they heard me talking and they heard Ted so we were taken out in some place, I haven’t the foggiest idea where it was and they took us back to this place where we were interviewed by, what I believe was, an old school teacher who could speak a bit of English and he explained to us that we were spies now ‘cause we were in civilian clothes, we were going to be sent to Berlin to the Gestapo to find out what we knew. And we got on alright and they had us in a small room locked in. And Ted said, ‘You know, we got to get out of this somehow.’ You know I was having visions of our fingernails being pulled off. Anyhow, the following night this chap said, the schoolmaster as I called him, he said, ‘Right, you’re going to be taken to the station,’ in the night of course because they didn’t dare try the trains during daytime, and we’d be taken to Berlin. Ted said, ’We gotta do something about this,’ so listen [laugh], we got there on the station, believe it or not, one of the guards we reckoned he was with one of the girls, he went round the side, but he went. Ted looked at me, didn’t say anything, but I knew he was going to kick the other guard in the balls. He went down and he got his gun and shot him through the head and he said, ‘This is how stupid the Germans are.’ The other guard poked his head round the corner and when he looked that way he shot him through the head. Well Ted [unclear], now I can’t find out anything, and I’ll tell you a bit later about where that was or what happened. Anyhow we got away. We were both hungry so we watched the first farmhouse we came to, we stopped in the barn, slept in the barn, and then about two more days later we came to a farmhouse which we was delighted enough to see and there a woman came out and Ted said, ‘Look you go and talk to this woman,’ and I said, ’Well, you’re coming along too.’ He said, ‘Yeah,’ and we talked to her and finally we got our handcuffs taken off. The farmer got an old chisel, took them off, so there again we got involved with the underground. I don’t want to go into that but Ted went one way and I went another and finally I got, I can’t say picked up, I was ‒, one night I heard a plane flying over and over and over, there was another one behind it, I knew ‒, as it turned out it was a Stirling, it was a four engine, I could see a single aircraft, and they dropped something, it hit across the wires, it was huge this thing and then this thing came to ground, so I was going over towards it and I heard a voice saying, ‘You German bastard, you stop where you are.’ [Laugh] I turned round and answered, ‘I’m an Aussie!’ He said, ‘Oh go on, talk.’ I was convinced he knew I was an Aussie, and that explosion was they were dropping a jeep for the underground and it hit the wire. That’s why the bloke there was SAS, that’s why they were there, ‘cause they were waiting for this. Anyhow, one night when they were out, being a wireless operator, they wouldn’t let me into their little bivouac, er, I guess because of what I might see but I knew where it was so, anyhow, when they were out I found the radio and I sent a message to my squadron telling them who I was, who the crew was, and where we got shot down and when. They never answered and I never knew whether they got that but I found out later from my wife that the federal police came to her in Elwood and told her I was safe at that stage but still behind enemy lines. In the meantime she thought she was a widow. Anyhow they, they finally got with the French underground again and without going into a lot of things they finally collected about six of us and two, no three of them, were crew from my crew, and I didn’t know them and they didn’t know me that I ‒, you know, they said, ‘How did you get on with your back,’ and I said, ‘Well I learned to walk.’ So they took us back, no they didn’t, we were in this place, I got a photo of the barn there. We were all collected, they were Flemish people, we were there for a day and a half, and finally they ‒, we were waiting, we’d been told in a roundabout way that it was just a holding place for us, but then we heard guns, and we said, ’Geez that’s funny.’ Because it was real firing so we went up to the road and it was General Patton’s mob, so we flagged them down and got on a tank and one of the officers, I’m not sure if it was Patton, it probably wasn’t, but he shouted, ‘Get them bloody Frenchmen off the tank!’ I said, ‘We’re not French, we’re Aussies.’ So because I’d done some gunnery I was standing up on the gun turret of the tank and we went all way down to Nancy, that was all day, and I’d never had it before but my face was so badly wounded it was yellow skin. I thought it was great standing up and each side there were pockets of German soldiers. He wasn’t worried [unclear] the Yanks would pick those up. Anyhow, so from there they sent us back to Paris and in Paris we were put on a plane back to England and we went through MI5 or MI6, I wasn’t sure what it was, and I was pissed off by this time and they said to me, ‘What happened?’ and I said, ‘I got injured, the people looked after me.’ I gave them the names of the people that looked after me in Pargny-sur-Saulx, ‘cause I knew that. Though I never knew anyone. I told them their names because they were making a reference in case that happened again. They were ‒, so they sent me back to intelligence and I was pissed off. There was a pilot officer there who was insisting that I account for the revolver that I’d taken, typical, he was what we called a nine day wonder, you know, he’d never fired a shot in it and he really pissed me off and so when we went in, I went, we all went through, but I went to [unclear], and I just said, ‘I got shot down, I hurt my back.’ Finally we got together again and picked up, so alright, the next morning I woke up and I couldn’t walk, just couldn’t walk, so they [telephone rings], yes, where was I? I woke the next morning and couldn’t walk and so they got an ambulance and they sent me all the way up to a place called Holloway [?] which was, that was an exclusive girls school, beautiful grounds and all the place was being used as a hospital. There were blokes there that had various accidents and treatments, all Air Force blokes, and they kept on telling me I could walk and I said, ‘No I can’t.’ Anyhow, so finally they told me that if I walk they’d have me on a train that led to London and we’d be taken to the States. That didn’t happen and so I was sent to this place and finally they came and gave me about ten or twelve days on my own in New York in a hotel, which they paid for, and finally they flew me to Los Angeles, and I got on a medicine plane, I can’t think of the name but it was well-known, passenger thing with the [unclear] and they ‒, with a lot of others, we were going back to Australia. We went fairly straight too and we landed in New Guinea. They did some trade there and went off and came back again and they picked us up, went to Queensland, Brisbane. We were there a few days and then came back to Melbourne, then got a medical certificate. In the meantime when I got there they later told me I wasn’t a warrant officer, they told me my commission had come through just before I got shot down and so I wasn’t a warrant officer, I was a pilot officer, but then from then on I had to go to a psychologist. You may have seen it and it’s only just come up again but years ago I saw that photo of a girl naked running, you know, from the Vietnam War and that upset me at the time. Then a few months ago when they started advertising they were doing the Vietnam War on the TV and I saw it and then I was really crying and I woke up the next morning and I felt that I’d done that to the girl, you know, now I look back and I know it wasn’t bombs, it was napalm. Anyhow, so I went to a psychologist and I’m still going. I’ve had eight trips and I’ve got two more to go and then have a break because she’d broken the cycle. Well I turned then, that girl that I imagined that while dropping the bombs on Germany, I’d dropped the bombs on that girl. I got two more things to go and that should be it because I’m not having that dream. When I first came back I had to see one because I was dreaming that I was in the plane on fire, that was OK, but I couldn’t get out of the door and that was horrible and then I had another one, years later, another nightmare, that I had jumped out and was on fire but I was in a parachute and I was looking down and my legs were there and my head was there and so that’s when I went and saw her the first time and she’s got rid of that, now she’s two more goes and I’ll be rid of that. It’s horrifying how realistic it is, you know. In my dreams I was holding on to that little girl and I could feel her hand in mine and, you know, ‘I’ll look after you, I’ll look after you, don’t cry,’ and they took me to a psychologist, not a psychiatrist, psychologist. She said she had attended that girl and that girl now lives in Australia. That was rather interesting but that wrapped up, then I went to ‒, when they found out I was a pilot officer they gave me officer of the guard at the Melbourne Cricket Ground and there’s a whole lot of blokes like me that came back, aircrew, and they were getting all the night stuff and so on. I felt pretty crooked about that. Now there are prisoners there that had cells. One of the prisoners wanted to see the religious bloke (what do you call him?), the chaplain, and I said to the other bloke, ‘What happens there?’ He says, ‘They send him up, there’s no hat [?], send him up, and wait outside and bring him back.’ So I went up and this bloke says to the other two blokes, ‘Look, I’m going to be here quite a while, you know.’ So they went off to the NAAFI you see, we’d called it in England, having a cup of tea, biscuits and anyway this assistant programme manager came along and I saw this bloke, who had finished, and he waited for this guard to come, and I got into a lot of trouble over that. I went down and he said, ‘Who’s that? Are you the officer of the guard?’ I said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘I want you to come here,’ I said, ‘What rank are you?’ He said, ‘Flying Officer,’ I said, ‘Well, I’m not moving a bloody step mate. If you want to see me you come here and see me.’ Next thing I know the group captain who was in charge, in charge of the contingent [coughing], I went there and in my case I completely diverted him because, you know, I said, ‘I want a court martial,’ he said, ‘You want what?’ ‘I want a court martial because all us blokes coming back are getting all the dirty jobs and the blokes here who are permanent Air Force they’re getting home,’ and I said, ‘It’s not fair.’ So yeah, I was cut up but I got out of that. But while I was at the MCG I got a telegram saying, ‘Flight Lieutenant Kelly please report to the adjutant.’ I reported to the adjutant. What the hell? The bloke said ‒ I said, ‘I’m not a Flight Lieutenant’. He said, ‘Well, you’re going to be.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘They’re sending you to New Guinea to be a wireless connector.’ I didn’t know but you probably did, they decided here in Australia that all the ex-bomber command would go because they’d had Lancasters which they aren’t going to be able to fill, you know, in the air and that and I was supposed to be going up there and I said, ’I’m waiting for medical discharge,’ you know, and I was, and I got my medical discharge and then I had a pretty tough six years but then I came through [cough]. Now I’ve -, two years ago, I’m going to mention that when I landed I landed on my right foot and I lost three centimetres or three quarters of an inch in height [unclear] and there was nothing much they could do about that so I learned to use it and in here, in my bedroom now, I tripped and went into the wardrobe and smashed my hip. That was in 2012. Now when he finished that my knee was still short but not as short. Then just recently, this year in August, I had a new knee put in and I’m going round that now. I banged my car into a post here in the driveway and [unclear] I’m ninety-two so I got ‒, sold the car on e-bay, and got my licence back and then I applied to get my refund on my registration which I got and on my insurance which I got. But now I’m absolutely [unclear] without any [unclear]. We get fed down there. But we get one piece of fruit and it’s not great, it’s not very good fruit so I go down and I buy a lot of stuff. I don’t cook, I’ve got my microwave, but fresh bread and fruit and things like that, all the salt and pepper, chilli sauce, and all those things they’ve got down there um, but I’m starting to feel ‒, not my knee, my hip and so this afternoon I’ve got to go into Frankston to get an X-ray of it and I think if there’s anything wrong with my hip I’ll go back to the doctor that did my knee, not the doctor, because the doctor that did ‒, yes, my hip I had to go back after three months and get it done it again. But it, it is ‒, because I’m walking not very well, I get very puffed walking because I’m out of condition, but they sent me to see an occupational therapist to see me three weeks ago and she insisted I needed a scooter, a mobile scooter, she recommended it to the [unclear] but I gave her a ring two days ago and she hadn’t heard anything yet [unclear] ‘I recommended you get one,’ she says, so that’s about where I am.
AP: That’s a stunning story. That’s ‒, this is the ninth interview I’ve done so far and I’ve been sitting here for about an hour and I haven’t said a word. That’s an absolutely spellbinding story. If you’re still happy to go on I’d like to fill in a few details, particularly of your earlier service leading up to getting onto operations. You’ve told me, I think, in probably as much detail as you’re likely to about what happened in France. I’m still very interested about that but I’d like to cover some of the other stuff as well [unclear] I’ve lost that microphone. There you go.
DK: We were in France this year, a chap took us to a house and when we entered he said, ‘I was living in in that when you people bombed it,’ and he said, ‘You missed it.’ So then he sent that to Den and he said, ’My father died and I was looking through all the stuff and I found a book.’ And he said, ‘That’s the cover of the book.’ Now that’s exactly us, yes, so he’s posting the book out, all in French, and I’ll have to get it back.
AP: That’s fantastic. Alright, so I’ll give you this so we can keep going. We’ll have a look at all your stuff once we’ve finished having a chat I think. So why did you pick the Air Force?
DK: Because I wanted to fly and, you know, when they told me I had no depth of perception but I didn’t tell you one of the things that I forgot, Tom, who was our pilot, I used to ‒, he used to let me fly, and finally after many, many runs he gave me a chance to land. I landed. I then found out I’d got no depth of perception [laugh]. I landed sixteen feet above the runway and the tower [unclear], ‘Go round, do more, three circuits and [unclear] never know how you go on operations.’ Tom said, ‘You bastard. You’ll kill me.’ [Laugh] That’s the first time around. My son wanted to go in the Air Force, got checked, he’s got no depth perception, exactly the same as me. His [emphasis] son went and got his pilot’s licence, he didn’t go in the Air Force ‘cause he couldn’t afford the thing to become a commercial pilot, but so, but my son said he was colour blind too. I said, ‘I wasn’t colour blind.’ So that’s something. Now here’s something people love, it’s come to me from France. A chap who, he talked to us all the trip, did the interpretations and that, and he and I learnt a lot. All of a sudden that came back, now he’s done that himself, people have seen it, ‘You’re a poof’, [laugh], no, that’s PO [laugh]’ with the roundel and then that.
AP: Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
DK: With that writing and all. I thought that was very funny that was. I made it.
AP: Fantastic.
DK: If you open that there, just tip it out, it won’t hurt.
AP: It makes an interesting noise by the way [metallic background noises]. That’s outstanding. So just for the tape what I’m holding at the moment are three pieces of Denis’s Lancaster shot down. It looks like it was recovered from France in 1982. I think we need a photo of that later on. That’s unbelievable.
DK: And my son now, as a result of our trip, they gave me a big piece about that long and about that wide of the plane, all concertinaed, they sent it back to us so I gave it to my son because I’ve got nowhere to put it.
AP: Yeah. Very cool
DK: [unclear] big place.
AP: Very cool. You did your initial training schooling, you said, Victor Harbour.
DK: Victor Harbour.
AP: Can you tell me something about that?
DK: Yeah, it was very interesting because we all got on the Adelaide Express. Not all of us were going there. I was crooked [?] on it because I’d had initial training down at er, ‒
AP: Somers it was.
DK: Somers, yeah.
DK: Somers isn’t far away from where we’re sitting, by the way, just for the tape.
DK: Yeah, so I was crooked. Anyhow, we got the train over there and were going to Victor Harbour. We didn’t know where we were going. Victor Harbour didn’t mean anything to us. We got on a train and we got to this place and it was a big ‒, we called it the castle, it must have been a huge mansion and got there and then they told us we had to get our paillasses out. None of us really knew what a palliasse was and this regimental sergeant major warrant officer as it was said, ‘What are you doing? Fill your palliasses.’ So I says, ‘Where?’ [Laugh] ‘Oh, what have I got there?’ So we did it, and it poured like mad this first night and the water was running under the things. So that wasn’t so bad but we had rain but anything that you had on the ground got wet. But we had this raised floor so you could hear the water running under it. Yeah, so then we got our inoculation and I went there at four o’clock in the morning. I saw him, they found me swimming around in the mud just like I’d done in France, but I was delirious and they put me in hospital. That was the needles that I got that ‒. It didn’t give me that but it started ‒. I never had that again. But I had the mishap, of course, I missed four days in hospital. That was twenty-nine course so I ended up on thirty course.
AP: At Ballarat you were doing wireless training?
DK: Yes.
AP: That’s the first time you’d got on an aeroplane?
DK: Yes.
AP: What did you think of that?
DK: So it was quite funny because we were getting a message and having to hand the message to the pilot and the pilot took no notice. Half the time we passed that and we were on to the next one but we were learning how to do it. I thought that was quite good. The gunnery is the thing that got me. In a Fairy Battle, we stood up in the Fairy Battle, and had a go at shooting things from behind but, no, in a way I got into trouble in Ballarat. It actually helped me because we used to come [cough] and er ‒catch the train, a steam train it was, then we’d get back to Melbourne. We’d get on the train in the afternoon and get back to Melbourne and then had to go back Saturday night. And my wife and I [unclear] we arranged this, that I would wait outside the platform until the train went and then rush in and say, ’Oh my God.’ Because there was no train on Sunday so I knew I’d have Saturday, Sunday and Monday to get back. No, I didn’t care about the consequences. It was good and anyhow I’d rushed there and said, ’Oh I’ve missed the train!’ The RTO, railway transport officer, said, ‘I’ll get my car and catch it up and [unclear].’ ‘Oh Lord, no!’ [Laugh.] Anyhow it was too late and I walked in there, back there, and the guard getting in the cab on the Monday, and the guard had me there, took me in a ‒, it wasn’t a cell, a holding room, anyway I had to go to the CO and the CO gave me seven days kitchen duties and that meant getting up at five o’clock and get going [cough] excuse me, and late at night drying and washing greasy dishes and that. Anyhow after only two days an edict came through that no aircrew were to be given KO [?] kitchen duties. So I had the wireless so-and-so. I learnt more about this radio than the other things so I came out near the top. And I never would have done if it wasn’t for the extra so-and-so and it was something that worked in my favour.
AP: Very good. And you were married before you joined up?
DK: Yeah, I got married when I joined up. My father wouldn’t sign the thing. Finally when I was eighteen he said, ’You got it.’ I said, ‘Why dad?’ He said, ’Because you’ll be in the Air Force and likely to be killed and you’ll leave her alone and maybe with the baby.’ I said, ’No, come on.’ Finally, I said, ‘Look dad, if I’m old enough to go to war I’m old enough to get married,’ I said, ‘I’m eighteen, I can.’ He said, ‘Son, that’s a mistake,’ he said. Anyhow, of course when it finally came through my wife was pregnant. Well actually she’d had the baby and I was, you know, missing in action. [Unclear] knew it would happen. But I came back and it was good. So, there’s my wife.
AP: I think I saw the photo there.
DK: Yeah, that’s it.
AP: Great photo. That’s before you left Australia.
DK: No, that’s when I came back.
AP: When you came back, yeah, that’s a three or four year-old child there. Fantastic. Alright, so you’ve gone across, you’ve got your wing, your [unclear] in Australia and then you went across overseas.
DK: Yes, embarked.
AP: Yes, embarked. Yep and went across. What did you think of war-time England? General impressions.
DK: Well, it wasn’t much then because, you know, we were just the aircrew that had gone to Bournemouth, that’s where they shot it up and we’d gone to Brighton. At Brighton we er ‒, I was never much of a drinker of beer and one night we went out to a pub and the blokes, there were three of us, the other two were drinking, I said, ‘No.’ I’d had enough so I started walking back and I got belted up by a Canadian army bloke, two Canadians, no reason but from then on in Brighton every Canadian and Aussie had a go at each other. Now the thing I ‒, I didn’t see that much of it. When I flew in England I was surprised at how big it was. I didn’t think there was any space there, even now, but there’s plenty of space there, but er ‒, when the bombing came along that made some difference. I’ll tell you a funny story off the record, that Tom Davies always used to go to London for his leave and he was a great womaniser and beer and he got his chick, he said, in a hotel and he said, ‘We were both stark naked and one of the bombs hit the road and hit places on the other side and hit the front,’ and Tom said, ‘The next thing I know there was a [unclear] man poking his head up and saying, ‘Good God, you must be a Yank or an Aussie.’ He said, ‘We were both there, I didn’t know her name.’ He said he just picked her up. Their clothes were just gone, their bedclothes were, ‘We were singed,’ and he said, ’I don’t want that ‒.’ Oh he was ‒, I used to go because I wasn’t a drinker, I used to ‒, and I saw quite a bit of England a) because my mother was English and I ‒. People used to write in to the squadron wanting to have Australians on leave and so I went to Caernarvon, back to Caernarvon, I spent some time there. I went to Yorkshire. I went to Hull. They were the main places I went on my leave. We didn’t get that much leave because [unclear] but no I ‒, we used to take our rations and I got a lot of things from home, the condensed milk went down very well there, the plum puddings and biscuits they used to send over, and every now and again we’d get one from the people, they were volunteers that sent food parcels overseas. But no, I never liked condensed milk I didn’t think but when it was thick I used to get it out of the can, it was beautiful. We did a few silly things, Bill McGowan and I, we used to ‒, the bomb-aimer, we jumped out of our bedroom and we were boarded together and we were cold at one stage and decided we’d put some coal in the ‒, I forget what they called them, but it was a stove with a pipe out the top stuck in the middle, and Bill went along, there was a railway line by the side, picking up the coal together. We thought, ‘How are we going to get it started?’ And so what happened? I had the great idea of getting one of the flares from the aircraft. Put it in and started it alright [laugh]. But we got into a lot of trouble over that. It happened to be a green one [laugh]. But no, I enjoyed it. I liked meeting the people. They were like me and you. The Yorkshire people, he was a farmer and outside Hull, and at one stage he ‒, they dropped their bombs, the Germans, he must have had a hang-up [?] in his premises, killed a couple of cows I think. But no, I liked England and when I went back I liked it even more. Let’s see [background noise] that thing [unclear]
AP: So this is again for the tape. An article from a magazine called “After the Battle’’ which is about Denis’s trip to ‒. It looks like his war-time career and return to England. Very nice.
DK: Yeah, they spent a lot of time with me actually, they took us up to Waddington and I had a meal in the officers’ mess and then down to ‒, where’s the thing in the south? It’ll come to me in a minute, you can see I’m aging. Where POF is. Actually there’s something I can say now, I’m the only person in the world that’s flown in both planes on D Day. So let me put it another way, there’s no one alive that’s flown in POF and was ‒, went to POS, which is in Hendon.
AP: That’s the two Lancasters in London. Fantastic. I remember seeing both of them on the same day a couple of years ago. I’ve never flown in them.
DK: Well, I’ve been in both of them.
AP: On the same day as well? [Laugh.] Very good. I’ll add that to the pile. That’s fantastic. Well, I think you’ve pretty well covered what you did on leave, when you stayed with families.
DK: I didn’t get into any trouble, I believe. A. I was married B. I didn’t smoke and C) We used to get the aircrew in England got American cigarettes once a month, a carton of them. The crew used to go to a pub, we’d pick up the night ‒, the ground crew, and take ‘em out for a beer and a couple of packets of Lucky Strike and you could drink all night on them ‘casue they were very precious in England.
AP: You talking about Caernarvon earlier. Personal question for the tape. There was, so my connection, my great uncle was also at Caernarvon for a while. A few years ago I went there myself. There’s still an active airfield there and I hired a little aeroplane and I went for a fly around. It was pretty cool. Why I mention it is because, what were the weather conditions like at that particular time? I remember it as being very cloudy and very, very windy.
DK: Yeah, yeah. I took to Manchester and places like this. Personally, what got me was the grandmother, for some reason she had lost her boys, and they were dead poor. There was a girl there, Mary I think her name was, and she didn’t know much about the world so the grandmother got ‒. I’d already been to Caernarvon, but this was on leave going back, and I went there this girl Mary took me all round Caernarvon, showed me the whole lot of it there. They were desperately poor, yeah, and I felt good at being able to give them the rations.
AP: Do you ‒? What sort of place did you live in while you were at that station? Can you remember that sort of detail?
DK: No, all I can remember that we had so much of this, what we called ‘rubber egg’ there [laugh] and Welsh rarebit. I do remember that. No, I didn’t like it. I liked Caernarvon Castle. We didn’t do much up there anyhow. We were just getting sort of introduced to the RAF and that there, I guess, you know. We were in an Anson hut, an Avro Anson.
AP: What did you do at your heavy conversion unit with your crew?
DK: Syerston.
AP: Syerston, I think you said Syerston. I’ve been there too. What did you think of the Lancaster the first time you saw it?
DK: Lovely, lovely, so it was big [emphasis]. But we’d been in a Stirling beforehand and the Lancaster was so much better. But we didn’t go ‒, we’d never been in the Halifax. And the Lanc was terrific, it really was. It could take off at 66,000 all that weight and it would still make it, it was manoeuvrable, and we never had engine trouble the whole time we were flying in that. We lost a lot of pilots as you know. I saw something the other day, it was on CNN, which I watch too, out of every operational thing from aircrew but there was a big casualty rate per cent, which was something like 55 or 66, one in every fourteen, I think it’s somewhere there. Anyhow, I’d got the information but it didn’t worry me ‘cause we’d done that and we’d come back from the last one we were doing. I thought the Air Force was good. I think the idea of the Air Force saved England. They [unclear] and led the way for the bombing of the thing, you know. I recently saw a speech by ‒, it was analysed where, Hess I think it was, said that the number of eight millimetre anti-aircraft guns they had to use was taken from the front, from the Russian front, you know, and the bombing just got to the stage where they couldn’t keep ‒. The thing that worried me, they almost got the atom bomb, the [unclear] heavy water I think, I’m sure of that, but no doubt mechanically the Germans were better at everything they made and they still is really good. But the Lancaster was really good, it could fly actually on one engine. We never had that, we only lost one engine, through a bit of anti-aircraft, shrapnel, you know.
AP: There was another question, ah yes, a sort of daily life question if you like. When you were actually on an operation as a wireless operator, what were you doing?
DK: Mainly you’re doing listening out because Bomber Command sent instructions to you and you had code. Doing that, then we got Monica and that was my responsibility and I did the IFF, the navigator ‘cause he was busy, you know, at that point. Only a couple of times did I ever have to, you know, a fix with the radio, but mainly listening out every half hour for this. One line, we were on our way and this came through and I couldn’t de-code it and I said to Tom, ‘I’m getting a message but I can’t ‒.’ ‘Jesus Christ,’ he said, ‘What do we do? Do we turn back?’ I said, ’No, I don’t think so’, and so we went on and then half an hour later we got that the chap that sent it had the wrong code book so everybody [unclear] and some went on and on and on and most of them turned back.
AP: It was actually intended to be a recall wasn’t it or ‒?
DK: Yes, yes, we had the wrong code.
AP: Whoops! But very rarely did you actually transmitted, I believe?
DK: Once only, we had to go out half an hour before the main group, take a barometric pressure and wind speeds and I had to do that and send it back. I’ve got to think where time and clock set and just stop today. It’s very personal but the psychologist said, ‘Can you think of anything where your life depended on it?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ [Laugh.] I said, ‘I’ve never sent so quickly in all my life and I hoped it was correct.’ But yes, it was good.
AP: Very good.
DK: We missed England one time coming back. We landed in Porter Down in Northern Ireland [laugh].
AP: Oh dear. Someone said to me once that navigation was easy because you just flew for the nearest cloud and England was underneath it [laugh].
DK: Yes.
AP: Very good. How and where did you live in the squadron, at Waddington?
DK: We had quarters there and I was with Bill McGowan. We had these bedrooms, if you can call them that, with two bunks in them, and we used to go to bed usually about four o’clock in the morning after doing all the trips and waiting to get in. I cheated in that. I put on Tom’s radio, which was only for local, onto the power of the ‒, and so he’d call up and we’d get a place in the circle well before we should have. The other thing we did too which was perhaps silly but turned out to be a good idea, because we took these blokes to [unclear], they had used to ‒, the ground crew. I had an old car and I used to fill it with hundred octane petrol because I saw them washing their hands in it but I ‒. Then you’d hear the next morning, ‘Wakey, wakey, rise and shine! The bombing’s on again tonight.’ So I said, ‘No!’ But no you never did three nights in a row. That was ‒. People ask me, how did you do it? My son asks me, you know, knowing and seeing things happen around you. When the CO got up at the end of the briefings and said, ‘There’s your route. There are a lot of you that aren’t going to be here tomorrow so make sure your personal things, anything you don’t want your wife, your sweetheart or your mother to see, make sure they’re not there.’ And then the other unwritten thing was anything there that was any good somebody took. When I got back [laugh] went back nothing was there. In fact, even the car was gone and my wife, she got the letter, and she didn’t know I had a car. I never did anything about it so I guess the RAF Benevolent Fund ‒. It was just an old Standard and nobody could use it because I hadn’t had the petrol and I had Tom have a look at it ‘cause he was learning as a motor mechanic and he couldn’t see but it just gulped petrol. Hundred octane was alright but if I’d ever got caught I’d have been in trouble because they didn’t know I were dipping.
AP: Oh dear.
DK: I enjoyed England. I didn’t enjoy the ops but everyone we did we said was stretching our luck, it’s time, but when the CO was saying this, you could see you were being missing [unclear] these poor buggers ‘cause they were looking at you, thinking, ‘ Poor buggers.’
AP: That’s no good. One thing, the question your son was asking, how did you cope with the stress of that? What sort of things did you do to er ‒, let off steam or what happened?
DK: Well we got up to a few things as a crew but for myself, that’s why I went to all these different places, which was completely relaxed, not going to London and drinking and, you know, all that. That was my way of relaxing. But I was uptight, there’s no doubt about that. But it was just at night you were focussed on that night and we were all confident with everybody else’s ability. That’s why I felt sorry for the rear gunner, he’d just turned nineteen, caught [unclear] that photo, no that, the big one.
AP: Ah, yes.
DK: Yeah, I think he’s right at the end. Yeah. Nineteen. He was a country boy, he’d never been with a woman, and so we told him at the end of the tour we’d take him to London and introduce him to a girl we’d pick up at a bar, or otherwise we’d buy one for him. So we started to call him Virg, you know, virgin, the poor bugger never made it. He was really looking forward to it and we used to tease him, you know, we’d say this is what you do and someone would say, ‘No, no, no. This is what you do.’ I said to him, ‘Look, it all comes naturally Col. Don’t worry about it.’
AP: That was actually supposed to be your last trip?
DK: Mmm.
AP: Oh dear. Not the first time that it happened I imagine. We’ve just about got to the end of my list here. You said you had a rough time for about six years after the war when you came back? How did you find re-adjusting to normal life? What did you do after the war?
DK: Er, I had what they called nervous dyspepsia and they reckoned I had ulcers so they’d given me ‘swallowing the snake’ we used to call it, down into the pit of your stomach. And I had to go privately to a ‒, a chiropractor, that’s right, ‘cause I’d had terrific migraines and did for years and years and years and finally I found a chiropractor at Burley [?] and I went down and he did a lot for my spine and neck and then I only got headaches, I didn’t get the bad migraines that I was getting. And I was getting restless sleeps, still am. My wife [unclear] two years, now that’s personal, but I came back and my wife was living with her mother in Elwood, in Anderson Street, and she brought Den up because my wife was four weeks younger than me, just four weeks, so she didn’t know much about it so she was living with her mum and when we went back we went there and the first night back Den was in a wheelchair, a baby’s chair, at the table and he was near Phil [?] so I went to bring him back to me, so next thing, she took it and took it back again. And I said to Phil, ‘What am I doing? Am I causing a problem? I’m the father.’ You know, the thing was Phil’s mother had five girls, never had a boy, and this Den was a boy of course, and that was part of it and secondly, she’d sort of brought him up for three or four years, so he was hers and she made it very difficult. She even got to a stage when I was at the MCG, on officer or the guard or some duty officer, her mother would find cinema tickets and put them in my pocket, the stubs, and then when it was going to the cleaners she’d pull them out and say look [unclear] she did everything. Anyhow, you know, when I got home I didn’t know whether to make love or turn my back and she was the same and I woke up one night and I had her round the throat, sitting on her, and shaking her, and that frightened me and I told one of brothers-in-law and at the time he was the manager of [unclear] gas works and had a new Austin. He just came up one day after I’d been discharged and said, ‘Ned,’ (everybody called me ‘Ned’ of course) ‘Ned, I want you to take this car now, pack up your stuff that’s yours and Phils and go. It doesn’t matter where you go but go.’ He’d seen the problem. So that did a lot. By the time we got back, we were naturally OK with everybody. We caught up with the things we did but my wife never knew any of the stuff that, you know. I didn’t write that until about fifteen years ago and it was Den who came to me and said, ‘Dad, you got grandchildren and great-grandchildren and you should leave your story.’ So, I don’t know what I did with it, I was looking for it [background noises]. Here it is.
AP: Fantastic.
DK: I wrote that [background noises] and my mate done ten copies.
AP: Wow!
DK: And that’s from beginning to end that one.
AP: I would love to read that. That’s amazing.
DK: It’s ‒. You want the whole lot of it?
AP: I would love to read it.
DK: Well, when you get to Chapter thirty-seven there are a couple of pages that are loose there because they were ones that were put in when my daughters were doing it, there was a numbering problem, so it’s only the first two pages in chapter thirty-seven, which is ‒, that’s where the real gaps are, from the moment I got shot down and to the moment I got back.
AP: I’d love to read that. That’s outstanding. So that’s why you’re doing interviews and things like that. I only met you an hour and a half ago and you’ve told me this amazing stuff. I’m absolutely humbled. Finally, my final question though. A more general question though. How? What legacy has Bomber Command left and how do you want to see it remembered?
DK: Well, I admire Bomber Command obviously because for me it started the problems with the Germans, so that they were out with the second front. The second thing was, the bombing on D Day was tremendous, you know. Thirdly, I think I changed from being a boy that was eighteen, to being a man when I came back. But the adjustment took more than people outwardly would know, I’m sure there’s some of them [?], but inwardly I never felt any guilt but lately I’ve felt the guilt but, you know, I used to have these nightmares, being on fire, which I was, but not being able to jump out and then the other one I’ve told you which I could see my body in parts on the ground. But no, we used to say, you want to be grateful, we’re sitting here and the flyers would say, ‘Geez, we’ve been shot down. Give us another one.’ But actually now with the drones ‒, and when I went May and June with Den last year Channel 2 were there to tape everything ‘ cause the whole time we were there everywhere we went they put ‒, and it ended up being 60 minutes, an hour thirty minutes on a 7.30 report. But the thing that did more for me was going back to France and meeting people. The little village Pargny-sur-Saulx was, you know, only a tiny little village. Now when I went back they’ve got a mayor and a city hall and they gave us a mayoral dinner and ‒. I’ll keep on talking to you while I get something.
AP: That’s alright.
DK: And er, then we met the people and they made such a fuss of me, you know, and I just couldn’t believe it. [Background noises.] That comes out. That’s Pargny-sur-Saulx.
AP: It’s a small medallion, actually it’s quite a large medallion from Pargny-sur-Saulx. Cool. I love it. Very nice. The French do pomp and ceremony very well.
DK: Yes, well, I went over there with my son to sort of thank them and he wanted it too.
AP: That’s the microphone.
DK: Because I wanted to see it but he made all the arrangements and it went really, really, well and the people were so grateful, coming back, and one of those things in that stuff I’ve got is a copy of a French newspaper they sent me. That was my twenty-first birthday and it’s in the in French, somewhere in that stuff.
AP: That’s outstanding.
DK: It might be nearer the top.
AP: I’ll pull it out later I think.
DK: Yeah, it’s just two photos stuck together but that’s it, I’m just in the left hand corner. It was my twenty-first but somebody in France did it and then they put it in their paper years later and they sent us the paper, the paper just disintegrated, but the photos I have on the computer and I did photos of it but no, I, when I went back Den ‒ I don’t know, I’ve got literally hundreds of photos. But it wastThe first time I’d seen a drones, you see the [unclear] cameraman was using a drone all the time. You can’t get back to the site where the plane landed ‘cause it’s all swampy. That doesn’t worry me at all because if it hadn’t been swampy I don’t think I would have got back. You can’t get in there now. But somebody got in to get that and now this huge one they had, Jack collected it as a souvenir and he didn’t let anyone know he had it and then it came forth at one of the things ‒.
AP: Wow.
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AKellyDV151201, PKellyDV1501
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Interview with Dennis Kelly
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:37:53 audio recording
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Pending review
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Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2015-12-01
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis Kelly grew up in Australia and joined the Royal Australian Air Force aged 18. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 467 Squadron from RAF Binbrook. His aircraft was shot down over France and he evaded capture with the help from the French Resistance.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
France
France--Pargny-sur-Saulx
Great Britain
United States
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
467 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bale out
coping mechanism
crewing up
evading
fear
Lancaster
RAF Waddington
Resistance
shot down
Stirling
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/15/25/ABoschD150730.1.mp3
2448e92d76f47177718312bd530f4e19
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Title
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Bosch, Dirk
D Bosch
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Dirk Bosch (b. 1931) a schoolboy in Amsterdam during the war. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2015-07-30
Identifier
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Bosch, D
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being carried out on the behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Mr Dirk Bosch, the interviewer is Mike Connock and the date is the 30th of July 2015 and the interview is taking place at Welton. Right, if you just tell me a bit about where and when you were born.
DB: I was born in Amsterdam, July 1931, just about eighty four years ago therefore and when war broke out I therefore was only I was only eight years and a number of months old. That’s very young and my parents obviously tried to shield me from everything. We lived in Amsterdam and I do remember that when Holland had capitulated as they obviously would have. They would either have been overrun by superior German forces or capitulate so I think it was a sensible option. The country is small. In the First World War which was often mentioned 1914 1918 the Netherlands were neutral and we liked it. We took that as a good thing and we wanted to be neutral again. So we tried to be neutral. We did not mobilise in the face of Germany because we thought we could pacify her. We could keep them quiet which meant that when war broke out we were not prepared. We were knowingly and consciously not prepared. My brother therefore who was of that age, older, about 12 years older than me [pause] he was lately, late on called up and he was got ready for the front because we didn’t engage, we didn’t engage with the Germans. It was that quiet. But he late on was called up and he was got ready for the front with no preparation to speak of. No training. No exercise. Just in, issued a uniform, keep him in that barracks there and you know he was very soon to go to the front when fortunately the war ended in Holland. We were not unhappy with that as such. It, it was the best of two evils really.
So I remember standing along one of our main entry roads into Amsterdam and the Germans came in in endless columns. Nearly all in transport. There weren’t any, any boots on the floor. They were nearly all were in transport and they dashed past us, they rushed past into the centre of Amsterdam and from there probably onward. The Germans being Germans will have been well organised. And that afternoon. Whatever time it took - that was it. We were now occupied. You didn’t notice that much on the day. We didn’t hear any
MC: I was going to say, you were going to say I just wondered how the schooling, your schooling was, you know, up until that time.
DB: OK.
MC: Can you?
DB: Well yeah I’m trying to recoup where I was. Anyway the Germans were all through town and for one thing they took our school. We had a nice, fairly modern school and they took it for a hospital. We therefore, the pupils had to join another school and I haven’t got the dates and times precisely I know but it was something like 8 to 1 for the one school and one to half past five for the other school and that alternated. So, that, the prettier school that the Germans had, had taken for the hospital, that was built right into the middle of blocks of civilian houses and they had, I’m sure, done that on purpose to make sure that the RAF or whoever wouldn’t come in to bomb or anything. Well in the first place everything was pretty quiet. We were told at a fairly early time but I don’t know how early that we had to hand in our radios and my parents did but the neighbour below us because we lived in flats, the neighbours below us hid theirs. Now if it had been found they would have been shot. As easy as that. But it wasn’t found because the man was a worker at a local bank and he had all sorts of nooks and crannies at his disposal, vaults and safes and he could manage to scriddle[?] his radio away. We did of course see Germans walking and we also had what we referred to as the NSB which is the National Socialist Bond or something and they acquired uniforms. They were given uniforms and they were put on the street corners selling their particular paper which I’ve never ever seen anybody buy. That was the most ostensible signs. There was, there were declarations. The Germans put declarations on walls and house sides and the declaration would be in the gothic lettering. We couldn’t hardly read it but then they also put what we would call today normal, normal script, normal font next to it and we were supposed to read that and see what we were to do and not to do because that was what it was all about. We had an underground and the underground was active but very cautious because we had little to gain. We couldn’t do anything that was terribly significant. I mean you wouldn’t go and kill a German soldier because the repercussions would be tremendous and you wouldn’t have achieved much. So we just saw them march and they sang. We had a curfew. Not I suppose at once but I only remember it if it was all [?] time we had a curfew at night, fairly early. I would think depending on how light it was. Something between 6 and 7 and then at night when we had little to do but go to bed we could hear the singing and marching. There was of course no transport to speak of because at, in 1940 stroke ‘45 we in Holland had very few motorcars in the first place. I mean who had a motorcar? I had one uncle who had a car and I had twelve uncles, you know and, but that was how life was. That was normal. We had bicycles. The use of the bicycles was fairly limited because the Germans built cordons and let all the bicycles run into it but none out. They took the bicycles for melting down the rubber of the tyres and the steel or the metal anyway for their, for their weapons production. So people became terribly frightened and cautious about using their bicycles. The out, the way out was by using the bicycles without tyres. It’s possible. It makes it a much slower process and very loud especially on cobbles. The things rattle like hell but what developed was that parties of people not many at once would go ‘up farmer’. Now ‘up farmer’ means you go and sort out a farmer somewhere in the country. You take your box camera or your, a couple of sheets or whatever you have in the cupboard and you try and exchange that for something to eat because the, at this time, the time I’m talking about but not sure how to to identify we had no food and the farmers were sympathetic and I did take our stuff. I suppose I more or less had to, er but they would they would try to give you something to to take away and the thing to have was peas because they were long lasting things and wheat. Wheat was always fancied. Er Potatoes. Potatoes could last a good while but anyway anything they would give and then the people would walk the bikes so they wouldn’t matter so much if they made a bit noise but there were trips beyond a single day so they would have to sleep somewhere by the roadside right on top of the bikes so that they wouldn’t get stolen or anything with their gear on and then the following day they would have to continue their journeys. Now my sister, who at that time must have been anything between fifteen and twenty, sorry I can’t know much better she did a couple of trips and she did it with a friend of hers, also of course a young lady and there was, I never heard of any problems that they had with the German soldiers. They were stopped and they were asked what they were doing and what they had there and they happened to get away with it. They didn’t lose any gear but a number of people would relate their stories. They were stopped by German soldiers. They would take everything they had got from the farmers and the bikes and they would have to walk the rest home with nothing. That of course was very, very unfortunate very unpleasant. So as war progressed we got we had less and less food. The Germans provided a system of ration cards and food to, to cover those ration cards. There was also what was known as centrale keuken - centralised kitchens and you had ration coupons for those kitchens and it was my not ever so pleasant duty to go with a pan to some shack somewhere and get your, your ration of slops whatever it was and carry them, carry that home again and when it got home it was a very unanimous sort of slops you know. There was, you could see perhaps a little bit of the potato or a little bit of carrot but you couldn’t really tell what it was. It was just like a thick soup basically and then if you wanted to warm it up somewhat or something you did not have any fuel. There was no gas. There was no electricity. Electricity wouldn’t have helped in this instance because in Holland we used gas for all that and electricity really only for lights, radio, that sort of thing. So we had stoves in our main room in our lounge, our sitting room - living room. We had stoves and where they came from I don’t know but there was a supply of little stoves. Little metal boxes and those boxes were more or less open in the bottom and had a hole in the top and they had a little drawer in the bottom and had the shelf in the middle like a roster with, you know that the air could pass through. And us kids were sent out to find branches and bits of paper and anything that would burn and what you could do you could put the little square box, metal that was on top of your stove your main stove in the lounge and the draft would come from the bottom, draw through the grid, the grill and you had some paper in there and you lit it and put your branches fired your branches, your bits of timber anything you could find and that would then burn quite well. You could put a pan on the top of it and the pan shut off the top so you have got an opening in the bottom for the air to go into, then you had a, it, it went through the fuel if you like. Then there was a vertical enclosure of it and that was not quite, did not quite go to the top. So the air that rose being hot would go over the top and at the back it would be sucked away into the works of the stove and go up your, the chimney in to the environment so that way you had a heated source and you could warm something a bit. Obviously later, in later years when it got colder and that last winter ’44, ‘45 wasn’t it, it was a very bad one. A very strong winter. It was not it, it, it meant nothing. It was not enough heat to do anything. At that time we would sit in our kitchens. It would be dark early. I don’t know what this discipline of lighting we had whether the clocks were forward or backward or two hours forward or two hours backward even we, I don’t know but it was light, it was dark early and you went to bed early. We sat in our kitchen and our kitchen was about ten foot by a good four foot and there was one little table in it. There were in fact six of us. My brother, two sisters, my father, my mother and myself and we would, we would sit on that around that little table a little table of about 60cm by 120metre, you know, very small and my mother would be invariably darning. My sister would be rehashing, recycling clothing would be unpicking the seams, would be cutting away the edges would be putting it back together and later sew it again on a hand sewing machine and then it would be a different size. It would be smaller because everything would have been uniformly proportionately be reduced and that was for somebody else to be used and that’s how we went with that. The ice on the windows was measurable it was at the bottom end of the of the window pane where some melting might have occurred and it had come down. At the bottom of the window pane it would be a good half inch thick and the whole pane would be filled with ice. And it would be rather beautiful to be honest where all these patterns that these crystals make. But upstairs, and I slept upstairs it would be absolutely freezing. It is unbelievable. People did not only died of hunger but they also died of cold of course. Now there is a big thing not yet mentioned to you which had its own affect all through and at one point we had on one the morning when we stepped out we saw people with funny yellow stars on their clothing and I had no idea. I had no idea what it was about and I don’t know if I very soon did because as I said my parents tried to keep me out of things. Not ever so religiously but on the whole you know I didn’t know about. But those of course were the Jews and at a given time these people all came out with these yellow stars on their coats and as you know the Jews wear a lot of black. Black overcoats are a favourite and then they had a very poorly sewn yellow stars on their coat. You could see someone very unused to sewing sometimes had sewn them on. Big course stitches you know five points that was all really. But once they were identifiable and identified they were sitting ducks. I suppose that there would have been certain ones who didn’t do it. They were very much in danger if they were found out but the ones who did do it were little better off. One morning and I, one of the things I remember, and I don’t think I have a memory for everything at all but one thing I remember when we walked to school from where we lived we crossed a rather main artery, you know, major road and as we came from the side street that we used to cross it and continue on the other side to my right were a number of German trucks, open trucks and there were people being ushered along the pavements. There were German soldiers stood along the pavement in in rows that I walked in between and the Germans were all armed and they were sort of roughly made to get into those trucks, standing on top in the open and those that had been filled were just having to stand there and wait and the rest will no doubt would have filled because we just crossed that road and we went on. Talk about it. We had no idea we had no idea. Nobody did. Perhaps at that time the right people hadn’t even been addressed to Hitler to set processes in in motion. I don’t know but we, Germans to us were our neighbours. We had a certain respect for Germans. Other countries as well. Holland by the nature of its minerals, its ores and other things we were dependant on foreign countries for much of our industrial product and we knew Germans and French and English well. On, even on the quite simple schools you learned the three languages German English and Dutch err German, English and French because you were expected later to be able to converse with these people.So, I’m trying to pick up my train of thought here. We, we had seen Germans we had known we knew, were more into German music than English or French music and we would have some idea of German films. Even in the, the wartime in the beginning of the war we could still go to cinemas but only to see German pictures and we spoke of Heinz Ruhmann because he was such a funny man. We didn’t mind Germans at that level somehow because oh they would look after us. The Jews would be alright. They were, after all they were Germans. They wouldn’t do anything nasty. It wasn’t in ‘em. And although we had our underground from the word go and people were very much anti the German sympathisers we didn’t at that point hate the Germans, strangely enough. Perhaps my memory is not perfect on that score or my knowledge but that’s how it must have been for at least for a good proportion. So we went into that period and the Jews were being deported to work camps. We understood that the Jews were being taken to work for the Germans. Now it wasn’t very nice. It wasn’t right, it wasn’t good but they’d be back soon. They wouldn’t be long. So there they went and the Germans started to empty their houses or their flats or whatever you know. We referred, in our idiom we referred to all that as houses. They started to empty their houses and if you looked in the railway yards you could see long columns of wagons with enormous banners on them from back to front and it says liefde giften van Holland [?]which means love gifts from the Netherlands. This of course was a lie but nobody was even shaken too much about that. After all we didn’t have that much respect for the German decorative but in any case we didn’t know what was going on and what happened was that those wagons were all being run off to Germany and somehow were made available to Germans. We of course in Holland had lots of waterways and near us in one of the canals we had one of these big lighters [?] . Are you familiar with lighter? A lighter is like a big open house a big hull really that’s all it is. And they were full of small items. I proudly, we jumped into them and do you know was rummaging about and I proudly brought some bank slips home. I had no idea what a bank slip was but I could, could draw on that. So I brought that home for drawing on and for writing on. Just a few things. I think I was then told not to do it again but that was the long and the short of it. So and by and by that disappeared. Now those houses stood empty and as it got cooler and colder eventually we Dutch people of Amsterdam came and broke open the the doors because in Holland and certainly at that time there was one front door and several flats off it so the flat, the front door could usually be opened with a latch key. So they kept, they left the front doors in the beginning but they began to take all the stairs away. They took the stairs away right to the top to the third or fourth floor they burnt them of course. That was fuel. And when that had gone they took the doors on the higher floors away and when they had gone they took the floors of the floor of the other floors away and when they had gone they took the beams and rafters until they were stood there empty. The front door by that time would have gone as well but they, they were empty carcases of houses. The bricks of course remained and I think out of caution and health and safety they left some of the beams so they wouldn’t collapse on people. But that that was that. That disappeared. We had one Jewish couple - couple from family which we were acquainted with and they disappeared. We knew through my sister there was a girl in that family Stella and her father and mother and their fathers and mothers they all disappeared one day. Gone. And only the girl herself came back. After the war, I don’t know I think it was the Americans who found them in their concentration camp. After the war they were first taken back to another part of Germany and then to Sweden and from Sweden to America and we have known them and we have visited them in New York where she had by that time married a German. A German Jew. He had also been in a, in a concentration camp and they, they told us stories not too much because it’s distasteful and you don’t like to talk about that but on the other hand they were very keen that young, younger people, their own kids would be well acquainted of facts. Right. What I would want to say is are you happy that little?
MC: Did your parents work at that time? Were they, what did they do?
DB: At -
MC: For work
DB: At that time women very rarely worked in Holland. They were housewives. Holland of course had a reputation for being clean and everything. Well those women at home were always cleaning and they cleaned the streets in front of our flats and we, carpets were being beaten twice a week and it was quite a, quite a thing you know and all carpets were taken up – carpets and rug, rugs, and my mother would talk to the lady below us and they would come together, take all the carpets and rugs out. Some of ‘em had special steps, wooden steps, very tall about seven steps to a set and they had two brackets in the top rung and they would bring down a long wooden pole and they would push the pole through the brackets and big the eyes and then they would put the carpets over the pole and they would hold a corner of it in one hand and the carpet beater in the other hand and they would give it hell and, I didn’t know that at the time but there was even regulation about it. Not everyone could at any time beat a carpet. You couldn’t do it before and I’m guessing 8 o’clock because people might still be sleeping. And you couldn’t do it longer than 10 o’clock because it was about time that it stopped and when those carpets were being beaten and remember that was all down the street and those buildings are four storeys high so it echoes and the din was enormous and then when it was done it had to be rolled up, taken up the stairs, the stair carpets had to come down as well and the stair carpets were sewn together so that when they were rolled out they took the shape of the stair and then they had the carpet rods and they were, had to be reinserted under the eyes that were drilled into the carpet to the stairs however and then peace was restored. But it was not of any import in itself of course. Not relevant to the war. That always happened but that’s what the ladies did. They cleaned. My father was made to work somewhere because just at that time when the Germans came in he’d become sort of redundant because of the slump because by that time you know you had the big malaise and he was, was set to work in fields because I know this because the Germans loaded them up on trucks and ran ’em to the fields somewhere and gave them jobs to do. I spent the whole day there. I had a fishing rod and stayed there all day and had a marvellous time. Excellent time. And the Germans stood guard armed over these elderly Dutch workers. So I don’t know what he did. I never went to look. I don’t know if I’d have been allowed to get any nearer. Perhaps I was as near as I could get but they will have been building bunkers or tank, tank stops, tank – I don’t know. And really on the whole therefore we didn’t have an awful lot to do with them. I would, I was involved in taking an illegal paper. Now illegal papers were serious business and the Germans here again would kill people. Because they wanted, at all costs I think they knew the punishment was out of step with the offence but they knew that it had to be stopped at source because the illegal papers told people things they didn’t want you to know. There was, the only news I know we had was a news cinema in town. For a little while we had the radios and that already very quickly turned into propaganda medium. Let’s not be mistaken about this all the time everywhere but the when the Germans said that over the front at this point the German forces have carried out tactful for retreat for the good of the war and therefore be in a better position. No. They had been beaten and they had been beaten back but you didn’t know that and you didn’t know what you could believe and what you could not believe. We thought even the illegal newspapers were written with a view to bolstering morale of the readers and could have been prettified but we chose not to believe that because we wanted to to hear the best and therefore well anyway one day I had to take it to the next person to read it. It was after curfew. We were lived in a quiet street and there would rarely be anybody around in the daytime and at night. It was absolutely empty. So I had to take the illegal paper over the road. I came downstairs singing and dancing because I could do the stairs in the pitch black. Knew exactly where everything was no problem. I got out of the front door. It was a moonless night. No light whatsoever. Street lights had long gone. I stepped out and I suddenly became aware that there was somebody and I could just about having got close, too close see that it was a uniform and I thought, “Oh my God what do I do?” I thought go straight on. Make out that it’s nothing so I skipped on and went over the road. I had my latchkey, the latchkey ready. I threw the latchkey in to the lock, opened it and shut the door behind me and stood with my heart beating cause if I’d gone back they would have hurt my parents if I’d gone forward the other people could have been but they could have denied all knowledge and could have said, I just fled. So that is what I did. Later on I learned it was actually a navy man and the navy wouldn’t have had anything to, to, no axes to grind, you know what I mean. That was one little event. Another little event was we had to walk everywhere because there were no longer any trams. There was were few buses in Amsterdam anyway but they weren’t there. No trams, no buses. All you could do was bikes and I’ve said something about that. Or walk. And we walked everywhere. I had an aunt who lived about two hours walking north of Amsterdam beyond the harbour. And I remember walking there and a couple of my mates came with me. We did that a lot. You could go anywhere with your mates and come in. And there was little tiny boat probably a mine dredger or something in the harbour and kids were selling a little puppy dog for half a loaf, half a German loaf. German loaf of course is quite a brick you know. They weren’t very good. On the same walk having arrived on the other side of the harbour we walked on and there was a lot of shouting and running about. We saw that a group of people was attacking a baker. He was delivering bread. That was common. That was ordinary at the time. There is nothing new under the sun is there? These deliveries from supermarkets well they were already delivering bread by cart from the bakers and as the man had arrived at his destination house and had rung the bell he’d left the hood up and there was a big cover on it, a hard cover and the people were in it, robbing him of his bread. And he ran back oh six foot of it and slammed the cover down and I remember that one loaf had spilled out from it from under the cover under the cart and I was well inclined to go and pick it up and have it but it was gone before I could even begin to make ground and it was one of those well one and a half inch high loaves because there was no yeast. There was no yeast. There was no salt. The flour was course and hadn’t really been strained or [unclear] or whatever you do. That was, that was why the bread was as it was. What we did do and did a better job of it if we got the opportunity we went into the countryside when they were harvesting and we walked behind the err what do you call it, the machine, the big machine
MC: Combine harvester?
DB: The combine yeah. We walked we used to walk behind the combines. No I’m lying we didn’t have the combines. It was a scythes job.
MC: Yeah.
DB: Remember that?
MC: Yeah.
DB: When they would be scything, the farmers would be scything and there would be somehow, there would be ears of grain on the floor. I don’t know how they got removed from the stalks but they were like the ears and from the bundles you know the sheaves and those we were allowed to pick up and put in bags and there was usually a German soldier stood in the field but they didn’t fuss with that. A field is a big thing to cover and they didn’t have that many people on hand. If, if they, if they’d done anything like shoot at people it would have been very difficult for them to keep control over all the people that were there. I don’t think they would have been too keen.
Right. Well I would hardly say this is all but I’ve?
MC: So you mentioned about the, you heard, used to hear the bombers going over. Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about that
DB: Right well at night and remember about the curfew we would go to bed early and in the dark I remember it always dark pitch all the time. In the dark you would lie listening and listen with the certain knowledge of what you were going to hear. There was no traffic. There were no cars, no buses, no trams. There were no planes of course. There wouldn’t have been any bicycles without tyres at that time of night. But what you would hear and there was some magic about it you would hear planes and the planes you would hear you wouldn’t hear the beginning of. You would, you could never say it’s started because it was either there or it wasn’t there. They, that merged into the silence so thinly because it was so far away that you couldn’t make it out. Not until there were more of ‘em and they were nearer and then you would hear the anti-aircraft guns and the anti-aircraft gun would at first, in the early stages they would be busy. You know the lights would be crossing the skies quite wildly it seemed. Sometimes they would pick one out and let’s say it was a Lancaster it would just go off and the aircraft gunners would aim at it but it would be too high. They would be invariably be too high and it would just go on. They wouldn’t lose it whether they, whether because of the aircraft moving them not being good enough to hold on to. Not that easy I think but they would lose it then and through the night you would hear that distant drone and you would know that it was power, powerful drone excuse me power, powerful drone because one aircraft would not have made that particular noise. It was the numbers that made the difference. And when you were in your bed alive [?] to it and that being the only sound you heard it had a big significance. You knew that this mattered, it mattered to our good because it was the only bit of war effort that we witnessed and it happened to the German’s detriment. That’s the other thing that would make it good. And they would drone over and over and over and we would normally not hear the end of it. Hard enough to do but by that time we would be asleep and then sometimes we would hear an aircraft. Normally a single, an aircraft come over low and land. Low and very loud. Not like the drone. Not power or anything. It would probably have been it and it would come over low and just miss the tops of the houses or steeples or whatever and it would be on its way back and you would know that there would be people sitting in there – four, five, ten, I don’t know. And they would be in danger. And they might die. And they would go over and go towards the west. They would soon be over the sea and they would all be sitting in there praying that it would stay up. That it would make it to Norfolk, Suffolk you know. The first stops. Not Lincolnshire I don’t think because that would make it such a wider angle. It would be farther to fly. We don’t know whether we ever heard one that went down. We don’t know whether we ever hear one that put down safely you know. That, that was a very relevant sort of noise [unclear]. It sort of, of course when the war ended we were in a bad way. In Amsterdam in particular because we were above a certain line. I don’t need to go in to this here but the Germans had perforated the dykes so the water had come in and much of Holland is below sea level so a lot of area had been inundated err the food [?]still could come to us very easily but somehow somewhere an agreement was reached for the allies to drop food. Now there will have been a lot of people who knew detail of that you know. The underground resistance workers. We didn’t. It wasn’t for us to know but what we did know is that one day we heard an aircraft as loud as we ever have heard one and only feet high. Came over, we could see the members of the crew and we were waving whatever we got. They were waving. We were cheering. You could hear the cheering over everything [short pause]and that was marvellous. They had dropped food and they were on their way back. They were waving to us. People were on the rooves especially where they were flat and they were waving with sheets and towels and flags. You weren’t supposed to have flags. And everything and the big thing of it was we knew it was true. Now it was true. We were liberated. It was, was enormous. And that is why it is so big in Holland.
MC: So when did you get access to the food? Did they bring it?
DB: That was, that was out of our scope. That wasn’t for us. There were authorities and the authorities took it and they were our authorities. Dutch. And they did it proper but don’t forget they didn’t throw down bread loaves they throw down flour. Threw down flour and that had to be collected, baked and the, the bread which came almost overnight which was so good. Was white. We didn’t believe that you could have white bread like that. It was white and it was high. It stood like that. We couldn’t believe that either. And then we got food at school. They provided food through the schools so that the kids could have food and well that, if you like, was it. That was almost the very last act of the war. The Germans had had enough and you can’t blame ’em. The Germans who were there had had enough and they set off walking. They walked. You see Holland is not a big country as you well know and I think it would still probably take three days to cross it on foot you know. But they set off, they set off walking home. Oh and the edge of Amsterdam was a pile and each German solder threw on it a bayonet, his gun, his rifle whatever he had. All his arms and that pile was growing all the time. We looked at it jealously because us kids you know, thought marvellous I’m going to pinch one of them but you didn’t get that chance. I suppose if I remember correctly it was the underground that guarded it, people of the resistance and, and that was, and there was only one other thing an account that the war was over. Germany had capitulated. On the corner of the Dam Square in Amsterdam where the palace is is a principal hotel and the German officers used it and they thought it would be fun. All the people had come out again. It was lively on the Dam Square lots of people walking and being merry and they thought it would be fun to aim their sub machine guns on it and start rattling and they killed a number of Dutch people on the square after the war had ended.
[tape stops]
MC: So the Dutch railways?
DB: This is running?
MC: Yes, yeah just
DB: The Germans had left the Dutch to run the Dutch railways but they made diligent use of it. They used it for freight of all sorts, armaments perhaps. I do not know. And personnel. And when it got a bit further in to the war and the underground was thinking what more could we do to help here, a difficult organisation you must understand they decided to encourage the Dutch railwaymen to go on strike and that would just throw down the Dutch railways bang [we won[?]. And I don’t know how they achieved it but they did it and the Germans were a bit, very upset about and very much crossed their line of approach, their system. And for one thing they, they did kill a number of railwaymen for the reason, for that reason and they tried to find more all the time and there were those who were just at home. My uncle was a railwayman and he and his wife also were harbouring a Jewish woman. But in the first place they had got a one escapee or what shall we call them? A person who avoids the German occupation but, or, or imprisonment but she would have gone to the camps. Well they had the one lady had a position in the eaves in case of danger. That was the Jewish woman. And when they did in fact come and they did of course they had personnel records so they could go straight to the addresses of the people who hadn’t turned up and they came to look for railwaymen and there my aunt was hiding this Jewish woman but they got her into the eaves somehow in time but there was very little time to do anything about my uncle. Well in Holland we have the custom of every day taking off the bedclothes and airing them over a chair or something so she forced my uncle on the chair because she was a very quick witted woman. She forced my uncle on a chair next to the bed and threw the bedclothes over him. There is a version of this story that the Germans came through the house all right. Never got anywhere near this Jewish woman but when one of the Germans looked and my aunt looked at him she saw him look at the pair of shoes appearing from underneath the bedclothes and she then believes that he thought, ‘no, leave them be’. Not all Germans were of course bad. I believe that they with the war being over we, you know they wish they had been. I know that I was later in Switzerland of all places and I was on an outlook post in a in a Swiss forest and there was another chap on the top there and we got talking and he asked what nationality I was and I said I was Dutch and he shrunk, he visibly shrunk and he said, “You must hate me”. You know there were good people. Not that many.
MC: So after the war you stayed in Holland?
DB: I stayed in Holland. I did a job and um but not immediately of course and actually it is a bit relevant. We had people doing health checks and a lot of us who had been hungry in the war we were underweight. And if you were underweight there was a system whereby Danish, Swedish, I think Swiss families had opened up to Dutch kids to put some weight on again and I was chosen to go to Denmark which I well enjoyed by the thought of it. That would be good for me to see this country. It would an adventure and everything and I was well keen to go but not all that long before the travel time it was full and I couldn’t go. Well that wasn’t good at all because I had to have my end exams, my final examinations from school at that time but with the prospect of going away my head teacher said he’d prepare me one on the basis of my schoolwork which would have been considerably better than than the exam so I was happy and now I had go again. So I locked myself up to study and then I got a place in England. I got a place in Lincoln. So at the late hour I was taken to a place called Woodlands near Doncaster which was an, I think an RAF base. May have been an army base and we slept in Nissan huts and I spent six weeks in Nissan huts and eight weeks with family.
MC: And how old were you at that time?
DB: Fourteen I believe and the people that had the honour of having, receiving me, for getting me were the parents of my wife. Can you imagine, I often think of this, somewhere in Amsterdam in an unknown place sits an unknown person who says who have you got down for Denmark? Oh no, no they’re full. At that moment my life changes. I don’t know that. I will never know the, and then somebody says there are a few places left in England. And that’s when my life changes, changes again. And even the, it even chooses my wife. So the war has got something to answer for don’t you think?
MC: Absolutely yeah yeah it can change your life yes. So after, after that you just stayed in Lincoln?
DB: I worked in Holland at the savings bank, the Holland Steamship Company that sailed to Falmouth and Fowey and Manchester and Liverpool and London and I got some free, free sails, sailings with and I then worked at my uncle’s who had a factory in [unclear] in a small metalwork. I then worked for an importer no I worked yeah, yeah importer, exporter of chemicals and aromas and I worked somewhere else, I can’t remember now. I mentioned I also did administration for a small dealer in household objects. Anyway I came back from time to time to – just because I liked it to be honest. I liked to do it and to come here and I had certain opportunities and I once or twice came to my then still foster parents unannounced and they put me up sweet as anything no problem. Then they came once or twice to Holland. Then Mavis came to Holland once - no with a friend and I just grew in the normal way that things grew and that really became the end. Now let’s see if there’s anything there must be something left. I had a feeling that there was something significant yet to tell you. No I can’t, I can’t think. I’ve certainly gone over all the major things that I have to tell you. It’s - unless you have any questions that -
MC: No.
DB: No my brother was the same age that I have referred, have I, have I referred to him
MC: [unclear]
DB: My brother in law but yes he was my brother in law was deported to Germany as a, as a worker. He could drive car which very few people could and he drove cars and buses in Germany of labourers or workers from their lodgings to the factories. Now my brother was the same age group but he didn’t have to go because he’d been working in the horticultural industry and his boss had quicky diverted to vegetable growth, growing veggies and he became a protected worker thereby. My sisters. My younger sister worked what that was commonly, in service and my older sister in the clothing industry and did well after the war and went to America and had a small department in a patterns factory in in New York. A company called Simplicity.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Dirk Bosch
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
Dirk Bosch was eight years old when the German army occupied his home town of Amsterdam. In this interview he describes what life was like for him during this time. He refers to seeing Dutch Jews rounded up and deported. He describes the hunger of the time and the effort to find food by travelling to the countryside and hoping for help from the farmers. He also speaks about the dangers he faced while taking illegal newspapers to a neighbour. He describes the sound of the Lancaster bomber aircraft flying overhead at night. He also describes Operation Manna.
Creator
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Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-30
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
Format
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01:16:00 audio recording
Identifier
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ABoschD150730
Spatial Coverage
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Netherlands--Amsterdam
Netherlands
Language
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eng
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1944
1945
anti-Semitism
childhood in wartime
Holocaust
home front
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Resistance
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/426/3603/PColomboE1601.2.jpg
fdd282399981f30f9cf0908d1fc324d5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/426/3603/AColomboE161203.1.mp3
9941817b02ac079fc5181a2a3ebf0008
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Colombo, Edvige
Edvige Colombo
E Colombo
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Edvige Colombo who recollects wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-12-03
Identifier
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Colombo, E
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Facciam partire, allora. L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Center. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi dell’Associazione Lapsus. L’intervistata è Edvige Colombo. Nella stanza è presente Greta Fedele come parente dell’intervistata e Sara Troglio dell’Associazione Lapsus. È il 3 dicembre 2016, siamo a Milano in via [omitted].
ZG: Allora, iniziamo. Prima della guerra si ricorda che lavoro facevano i suoi genitori?
EC: Meccanico.
ZG: Suo papà. E sua mamma invece?
EC: Casalinga. Eravamo in tanti.
ZG: Quanti eravate?
EC: Quattro fratelli.
ZG: Ehm, lei si ricorda, qual è il suo ricordo, il ricordo più lontano che ha?
EC: Lontano sempre per la famiglia o per la guerra o per?
ZG: No no il suo ricordo personale più lontano.
EC: Il mio ricordo più lontano è che ho sempre lavorato perché mi è morta la mamma presto, giovane e ha avuto, e qui con tutti i fratelli ero io solo sposata e facevo da mamma.
ZG: Ok
EC: E ricordo lavorare presto
ZG: Si si va benissimo.
EC: andare al lavoro presto.
ZG: Ehm, la sua famiglia dove viveva? Viveva qua?
EC: Si sempre qui
ZG: A Trenno?
EC: Trenno. Nata a Trenno, vissuta a Trenno e sono qui a Trenno.
ZG: Lei si ricorda di quanto è scoppiata la guerra?
EC: Beh adesso proprio precisamente non saprei, perché non mi ricordo proprio. Sarà stato non so prima del ’50, eh adesso…
ZG: Si ma aldilà della data, si ricorda il momento in cui è scoppiata, che cosa dicevano le persone per strada, cosa le raccontavano i genitori.
EC: Eh beh insomma, eravamo sempre al lavoro, a casa, la paura di uscire, sempre per la paura di uscire e il nostro, più quel nostro, in chiesa, l’oratorio, in chiesa, al lavoro, e basta. La nostra vita era sempre così, non c’era niente di particolare. Perché eravamo in tanti, così più che il lavoro, in chiesa, l’oratorio, e famiglia non c’era.
ZG: Eh suo papà quando, cosa le aveva raccontato della guerra.
EC: Ma mio papà lavorava all’Alfa Romeo, all’Alfa Romeo allora a tempo di guerra o che era dentro l’Alfa Romeo a lavorare. E poi non lo so dopo, mio papà a dire la verità era sempre ubriaco. Allora bevevano tanto gli uomini eh. Era sempre ubriaco. A parte il lavoro, ma a casa dopo era ubriaco.
ZG: Qualcuno le ha spiegato che cosa stava succedendo con la guerra?
EC: Eh no, proprio di spiegarmi no. Io so soltanto quando è successo il disastro qui alla Bellaria quando è venuta giù quella bomba perché qui erano tutti prati, erano tutti prati o che, non c’era niente. Quando suonava gli allarmi così si andava in cantina e si scappava fuori, fuori lì perché li erano tutti coltivatori, frumento e grano turco, tutte quelle cose lì, noi si scappava nascosti lì.
ZG: E si ricorda di quando sono suonate per la prima volta le sirene dell’antiaerea?
EC: Bè per la prima volta non mi ricordo. Non mi ricordo perché andavo al lavoro. Allora lavoravo alla Rinascente, non mi ricordo, perché facevo tutto al centro, andavo fino al centro.
ZG: Che lavoro faceva?
EC: Eh cucire a macchina, fare le confezioni.
ZG: Facciamo, mi dica cosa accadeva da quando sentiva suonare le sirene dell’antiaerea e correvate al rifugio.
EC: Correvamo giù in cantina, quelli un po' che in cantina, oppure si scappava fuori lì così nei cosi, si stava un po' insieme, correre tutto, tutto assieme, andiamo giù in cantina, andiamo di là, andiamo di qui, la nostra vita era quella lì.
ZG: Ehm…
EC: Solo che quando è successo il disastro alla Bellaria, eravamo, io ero alla finestra. Ero alla finestra, qui adesso abitavo qui alla cooperativa vecchia, allora guardavamo i prati così e quando è arrivato quella bombola lì che, la bomba che è andata giù eravamo alla finestra, poi siamo scappati giù. È stato quello che dopo è successo che hanno preso quella macchina, che quando son venuti gli americani, son arrivati alla Bellaria, si sono incontrati e hanno preso quella macchina lì che hanno preso i nostri qui, che hanno preso i nostri, che hanno morto, sono morti i nostri, il tabaccaio, il figlio del coso. Eravamo alla finestra qui noi e anche la mamma a vedere che passavano e è successa una cosa così all’improvviso. Ma c’è ancora la lapide alla Bellaria? C’è ancora? Ah c’è ancora.
ZG: Io però non sono di qua, non so nulla. Che cos’è la Bellaria? Cosa è successo?
EC: La cascina. Quella cascina che si passa lì. Ecco prima lì era una cascina che c’erano quelli che lavoravano lì i prati, no, che lavoravano proprio i coltivatori. Allora eravamo lì alla cascinella, andavamo lì perché lì c’era una villetta. Dopo l’han fatta sul Po però prima era di quelli che lavoravano, di quelli che facevano i coltivatori. Era lì, eravamo niente, era solo quella lì e le scuole.
ZG: Eh insomma a questa Bellaria un giorno è stata bombardata…
EC: Si è stata bombardata quando è venuto giù quella cosa, quella bombola, che proprio è successo quello lì. Ma dopo, poi son venuti qui gli americani, dopo son venuti qui che allora erano abbastanza in buona armonia che eravamo qui, magari si andava lì, si andava avanti là, dove c’è anche là, come si chiama lì, che si andava lì, dove si ballava, noi diseum la lera, lera perché era cemento che si andava lì noi giovani, avanti lì e si andava lì a ballare e c’erano anche i tedeschi. Allora erano bravi perché anche qui in cooperativa andavamo a ballare con loro.
ZG: Mi racconti di quando ballavate con i tedeschi.
EC: E con i tedeschi, e qui alla cooperativa venivano qui e anche loro erano brave persone e si ballava insieme. Noi suonava con la musica, ballavano, poi loro andavano per nostro conto e noi andiamo a casa. Venivamo qui a casa, ma eravamo un gruppo di dieci, tra noi più o meno tutti della nostra età, si andava giù lì a ballare. Si andava sempre insieme, sempre insieme noi.
ZG: Ehm mi racconti…
EC: Non che si usciva da soli con loro, eh. Non si usciva da soli con loro. Sempre qui con loro, noi insieme a loro. Ma non che dire che si usciva la sera magari con loro o che, no no no. Non c’era niente di…
ZG: E i tedeschi come…?
EC: E i tedeschi allora al momento parlavano anche loro l’italiano, parlavano, si poteva capire bene cosa dicevano ed erano sempre più o meno sempre quelli, non è che cambiavano tanto perché arrivavano con la macchina dentro nel prato lì e venivano qui. Si trovavano qui. Qui non c’era niente, non è come adesso. C’era qui la cooperativa, c’era la chiesa, c’era il poco, il lattaio e poca roba.
ZG: Ehm i tedeschi erano in divisa, erano vestiti..?
EC: Si, si, si. Per quello erano in divisa.
ZG: Si ricorda per caso se fossero ufficiali o soldati semplici?
EC: No quello non lo so. Perché sa noi giovani, loro, la nostra età più o meno, avevamo diciassette, diciotto anni, vent’anni, allora non è che si interessava. Andavamo lì quel momento che si stava lì quel paio d’ore insieme, poi ognuno a casa sua. Loro andavano e noi a casa nostra.
ZG: E si ricorda per caso che musica ballavate?
EC: Eh beh valzer, tango, e allora quelle musiche così di tango e valzer.
ZG: Ehm aveva paura di quei soldati?
EC: No quando erano qui non avevo paura perché oramai avevamo preso un po' di conoscenza con loro, allora non è che si andava giù con paura. Però certo che si trovavano così allora si eh, allora si, ma quelli che venivano qui ormai eravamo abbastanza a conoscenza.
ZG: E invece se incontravate i tedeschi per le strade?
EC: Eh beh io, non si incontrava. Perché si andava via al mattino, al lavoro, si arrivava alla sera, si stava a casa, non è che c’era. A parte alla domenica che si poteva andare giù a ballare e basta, il resto sempre in casa. Lavoro e casa, non è che si andava. Perché lì dopo la Bellaria c’era un campo che venivano lì, loro i tedeschi, si sono messi lì loro avanti alla Bellaria, hanno messo come un camper, come un coso, che loro si riunivano lì. Si riunivano lì perché avevano messo giù come, insomma dove loro potevano star lì insomma. Ecco.
ZG: E alla Bellaria quindi secondo lei hanno bombardato perché c’erano i tedeschi?
EC: No, dopo sono arrivati i tedeschi. Sono arrivati i tedeschi proprio lì, si vede che facevano il giro o che e hanno lasciato lì. Combinazione noi era solo quel posto lì che si poteva andare. Perché erano una famiglia di agricoli che lavoravano la terra così. Erano sempre loro. Come qui che adesso che quando c’erano ancora che lavoravano ancora qui delle famiglie. Qui vicino alla scuola. Vicino alla scuola lavoravano ancora lì le famiglie il terreno. Vicino alla nostra scuola vecchia. Però io di memoria proprio di ricordarmi tante cose così non mi ricordo più.
ZG: Si ricorda chi è che ha buttato la bomba sulla Bellaria.
EC: Ah quello non lo so, non lo so. Non so chi è ha un po' più di memoria di me. Forse la zia Bianca può darsi che ha più memoria di me. Io ho poca memoria.
ZG: Nel periodo della guerra lei con chi viveva?
EC: Con i miei, con i miei genitori. Si si. Perché non ero ancora sposata, non ero ancora sposata.
ZG: E quando suonava l’allarme antiaereo ha detto che andavate in cantina.
EC: In cantina.
ZG: Ma la cantina era attrezzata per…
EC: No, allora non era attrezzata per i bombardamenti. Ormai si hanno avvicinato tutte le cose e si scappava dentro lì. Era tutto libero, era tutto libero lì e si scappava sotto, perché c’era solo l’unico da poter scappare, gli altri erano tutti campi.
ZG: E quando stavate in cantina che cosa facevate?
EC: E in piedi così, sempre in piedi così. Perché neanche da sedersi, niente, non si poteva perché non c’era da sedersi. Non c’era la sedia, non c’era niente, eravamo tutti lì in piedi così ad aspettare che passasse per uscire.
ZG: Come facevate a sapere che potevate uscire?
EC: E quando era libero, che non si sentiva più, tam tam tam, più o meno c’era qualcuno che usciva a guardare fuori così e diceva ‘si si adesso si può uscire’ e si usciva.
ZG: Avevate paura quando eravate nei…
EC: Eh beh. Si, si, si, si. Eravamo lì tutti così, intirizziti o che, non si parlava neanche per la paura, dalla paura non si parlava.
ZG: Quindi non pregavate?
EC: Beh c’era, ma non lo so se pregavamo. Non so, io non pregavo, non mi ricordo che pregavo. Però non so.
ZG: Cos’è che le faceva più paura?
EC: Quando si sentiva quei tremori forti forti forti e allora faceva un po' più paura. Però del resto dopo non si sentiva niente, la nostra vita era normale.
ZG: E invece quando era al lavoro alla Rinascente?
EC: Quando ero alla Rinascente ormai non c’era più tanta, la guerra dei bombardamenti ormai non c’era più. Si andava, non c’era i mezzi. Qui bisognava andare fino al sedici a piedi, perché qui non c’era niente neanche l’autobus niente. Non c’era niente, sempre in bicicletta, si andava tutti in bicicletta.
ZG: Quindi durante la guerra, durante i bombardamenti lei non lavorava ancora?
EC. Si, si, si. Eh lavoro si. Si andava sempre a piedi, a prendere, c’era un coso che passava e si andava fino quasi fino insomma, quasi al sedici, non so come si chiama, Perrucchetti, si andava fino in mezzo là perché c’era l’unico mezzo che ci portava.
ZG: E che lavoro faceva?
EC: Cucire a macchina, cucire, fare confezioni.
ZG: E quando era al lavoro non le è mai capitato di andare nei rifugi?
EC: No, no quello no. Quel tempo lì no è passato tutto, non si andava giù. Era già passato tutto il coso, non c’erano neanche qui più i tedeschi o che, che sono andati via.
ZG: Durante la guerra aveva dei parenti che combattevano?
EC: No i miei fratelli erano tutti a casa, no no, erano tutti a casa.
ZG: Suo papà dove lavorava?
EC: Alla rinascente, all’Alfa Romeo.
ZG: E che lavoro faceva lì se lo ricorda?
EC: Meccanico.
ZG: Ma per caso si ricorda se lavorava per mezzi di guerra?
EC: E non lo so. Non so cosa facevano lì all’Alfa Romeo. Non mi ricordo. Perché dopo è andato dentro anche il mio fratello, così è andato dentro anche lui a lavorare all’Alfa Romeo.
ZG: Invece lei ha mai sentito parlare del Pippo?
EC: Chi sarebbe sto Pippo?
ZG: Era un aereo che ogni tanto volava a Milano.
EC. Ah, non mi ricordo che si chiamava così. Magari si sentiva ma io non mi ricordo che si chiamava così.
ZG: Si ricorda di quando la guerra è finita?
EC: E è finita che anno? Nel quarantacinque? Quarantuno? Quarantacinque e quarantacinque mi sembra.
ZG: Mi racconti le sue emozioni di quando le hanno detto che la guerra era finita.
EC: E della contentezza, della contenenza che siamo un po' più liberi da poter uscire, da poter fare le cose un po' più senza paura.
ZG: Si ricorda del giorno della Liberazione?
EC: Il 25, il 25 aprile? Quello lì forse..
ZG: Ma, alla Bellaria prima ha parlato di una macchina.
EC: La macchina che è arrivata fino alla Bellaria, non è che c’era la macchina là. Da Trenno è partita e sono arrivati alla Bellaria. Poi dopo si sono incontrati con gli americani che li hanno uccisi.
ZG: E si ricorda chi erano queste persone nella macchina?
EC: Ah beh adesso il nome non mi ricordo, uno era il tabaccaio di Trenno, non mi ricordo come si chiama, come si chiamava, non mi ricordo più adesso i nomi. E l’altro era il ragazzo più o meno della nostra, della mia età che era su, che era un partigiano.
ZG: E perché era andato alla Bellaria?
EC: No sono partiti da Trenno con la macchina e sono arrivati alla Bellaria e si sono incontrati senza volerlo. Loro erano tutti contenti per la gioia che era finita la guerra. E i partigiani sono partiti da Trenno con una macchina e sono arrivati con tutta una bandiera così, tutti contenti. E invece sulla via Novara hanno trovato sta macchina lì di americani che si sono incontrati così senza saperlo. Questi qui dalla contentezza e loro sono venuti di qui.
ZG: Ma si sono sparati? C’è stato un conflitto?
EC: Eh si, li hanno uccisi. Li hanno uccisi.
ZG: Perché li hanno uccisi?
EC: Eh chi lo sa. Chi lo sa perché li hanno uccisi. Forse perché hanno visto la bandiera di partigiani e loro erano ancora un po', eh non so cosa è successo.
ZG: Senta, ultime due domande. Cosa pensava delle persone che buttavano le bombe?
EC: Che sono delinquenti, che erano dei delinquenti perché buttar le bombe così sulle persone umane, sono delinquenti.
ZG: E lei non si ricorda chi fossero a buttare le bombe?
EC: No, no. Non mi ricordo.
ZG: Va bene basta così allora, abbiamo finito.
EC: Non so, ho la mia cognata che non so se la Zia Bianca ha più memoria e si ricorda un pò di più le cose, ho la mia cognata che lei è sulla carrozzina adesso ma ha più memoria mentre io di memoria ce ne ho poca.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Edvige Colombo
Description
An account of the resource
Edvige Colombo recalls her life in wartime Milan. Describes when the alarm sounded and she and her family went to the basement used as a shelter. Recollects moments inside, re-emphasizing how there was nothing to do there, just standing waiting until the bombing was over. Narrates the bombing of the Bellaria farmstead in the neighbourhood of Trenno, Milan. Recalls when she and her friends went dancing with German soldiers. Recounts a wartime anecdote, when two cars, one with partisans and the other with American soldiers, met at the Bellaria farmstead and after some shooting the partisans were killed.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Date
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2016-12-03
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Greta Fedele
Format
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00:21:53 audio recording
Language
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ita
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Milan
Italy--Po River Valley
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Identifier
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AColomboE161203
PColomboE1601
bombing
home front
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/137/1345/AMarianiE171209.2.mp3
0eee23fba633360a2f864a13c00ca89d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/137/1345/PMarianiE1701.2.jpg
78966f1fe391c0d4aac3b6a0c5c10a24
Dublin Core
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Title
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Mariani, Enrica
E Mariani
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Enrica Mariani who recollects her wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mariani, E
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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EP: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatrice è Erica Picco. L’intervistata è la signora Enrica Mariani. Nella stanza sono presenti Zeno Gaiaschi, Emilio Mariani e Roberto Sanvito. Ehm, ci troviamo in [omitted] a Milano. Oggi è il 9 dicembre 2017 e sono le 15.30. Va bene, possiamo cominciare. Allora, signora Enrica, ehm, io vorrei cominciare da prima della guerra e vorrei chiederle come era composta la sua famiglia, se aveva fratelli, sorelle, dove vivevate e qual’è il suo ricordo più distante, prima della guerra, che cosa si ricorda, come era la vita?
EM: Sì, difatti, mi ricordo perché mio papà, diciamo, lavorava in una fabbrica dove facevano, come si chiama? Le cose per i militari insomma, ecco. E, e allora, diciamo, allora c’era il Duce e volevano fare la tessera dei fascisti insomma. E invece mio papà non l’ha fatta. Non l’ha fatta e allora loro l’hanno lasciato a casa e allora dato che noi avevamo, mia mamma faceva la portiera in Via Pietro Borsieri 12 e allora c’era il ragioniere della casa che veniva lì e ormai li conosceva e allora c’ha trovato un posto al, dove, al Verziere. Al Verziere perché così almeno lui essendo di notte faceva la ronda, essendo che non era fuori e così almeno nessuno diciamo [unclear]. Viene che una serata insomma mia mamma aveva tre figli allora, cioè io, mio fratello, quello che c’è morto e questo qui che c’è adesso, Emilio, ecco. E diciamo questo qui era appena nato perché era del, è del ’38, dunque perciò. E allora c’ha detto mia mamma: ‘Te porta di sopra i bambini’, perché avevamo le camere da letto di sopra, ‘te porta di sopra i bambini che tanto manca due minuti alle dieci, credo che non dicano niente se io chiudo la porta, il portonÈ, perché allora facevano dalla mattina alle sette al pome, alla sera alle dieci. Viene che c’è una, dei signori lì della, dei fascisti, che fanno la ronda, perché una volta c’era in giro la sua ronda, la ronda di loro insomma. E allora vedono mio papà a chiudere e allora c’hann detto: ‘Ma lei perché chiude? Non, lei è il portiere?’ Lui c’ha detto: ‘No, io sono il marito, però mia moglie c’ha i tre bambini, è andata di sopra’. Insomma, lì c’hanno puntato la rivoltella e l’hanno portato di sopra. Sono andati su perché avevamo le camere da letto al primo piano, che si entrava anche dal primo piano e mia mamma allattava mio fratello, questo qui l’ultimo. E allora ci è venuta la febbre, ci è venuto un po’ di cosa, sa io, va bene, ero piccola ma però insomma, avevo otto, otto anni, nove però ero già svezzata [laughs] perché ecco, e allora e così. Dopo l’hanno portata, portato di sopra allora visto che mia mamma conosceva della gente lì nella porta che erano dei graduati dentro al, a quel, al fascista, al fascismo e allora [unclear] sono andati giù e li hanno richiamato quelli lì. Han richiamato quelli lì e allora insomma è andato un po’ più a posto insomma così ma oramai mia mamma aveva, si era spaventata e ci era andato indietro il latte. Dopo questo qui dovevamo prendere [unclear] poi dopo c’è arrivata la guerra dunque quella la, quella la, la cosa lì come si chiama, le cose lì che hanno mandato fuori insomma i cedolini delle cose così no eh ma bisognava aspettare che mandavano fuori la roba nei negozi. Insomma è che, che ne ho fatte tante di corse ma non ho mai preso niente [laughs]. Dopo la mia mamma così, dopo mio papà nel ’39 l’hann chiamato su a militare, l’hann chiamato a militare ma lui dato che la, il militare l’aveva fatto anche quando aveva diciassette anni in Libia, ma era nella Croce Rossa. Nella Croce Rossa e allora c’è stato un coso insomma che mio papà non aveva dentro più i denti perché con il calcio del fucile hanno buttato fuori tutta la roba e allora insomma. Lì viene che allora dopo è venuto a casa e dopo si è sposato con mia mamma insomma così però nel ’39 l’hann chiamato su lo stesso che già aveva trentanove anni. E allora l’hann chiamato su lo stesso, era nella Croce Rossa che la Croce Rossa allora era al Castello Sforzesco. E poi c’avevano fatto un tesserino che c’era scritto proprio che lui, alla sera, se lo prendevano in giro, doveva andare in servizio, insomma così. Dopo insomma così, e dopo invece mio fratello quel, il secondo, non questo, il secondo, che a furia di andare, portarlo giù in, ehm, in cantina, con il freddo, una cosa, quell’altra, insomma è che c’è venuto una cosa al polmone. E insomma nel ’41 è andato. Nel ’41 è morto, allora mia mamma, sa insomma i dispiaceri perché, ehm, allora mio papà invece dopo si è ammalato lui e l’hanno portato al Niguarda. Al Niguarda perché a Baggio, dove c’era la cosa dei soldati, dei militari, doveva arrivare quelli della Russia, che erano mezzi. E allora lui praticamente era in un, in un posto insomma civile perché allora una volta il Niguarda era civile, non era come Baggio che c’erano tutti i militari. Beh insomma andato così, comunque non ha preso niente e amen. E allora io, quando c’è morto mio papà nel ’42 avevo dieci anni, è morto al 19 di marzo e allora la mia mamma ha dovuto venir via dalla portineria. Ha dovuto venir via e allora la, i miei zii insomma mi fanno: ‘Senti, adesso devi andare a fare qualche cosa’. E difatti sono, è venuta una mia zia in, lì a scuola e c’ha detto: ‘Guardi’, dice, ‘che mia nipote, c’è morto suo papà’. E difatti m’hann fatto il libretto di andare a lavorare e difatti sono andata a lavorare sotto i bombardamenti, sotto la, insomma tutto e allora abbiamo portato via mio fratello, mio nonno è venuto giù [clears throat]. Portato via mio fratello questo qui perché bombardavano sempre e allora io, anche se ero in giro, cercavo di scappare dentro nei negozi e così [laughs], ma lui altrimenti restava a casa da solo. E allora insomma l’abbiamo mandato via. [unclear], oh, faceva di quelle fatiche, che dovevo sempre andare o da sua sorella di mia mamma che abitava dopo Pavia o dalla, da mio nonno che era su a Bizzarone, provincia di Como, ecco, proprio sul confine della Svizzera, era lì. E allora con lui e il bambino e poi anche c’è andato su anche una mia cugina, era insomma e sono stati là e così. Oh, ma ne ho fatte di cose. E poi c’era dei ragazzi, io dico ragazzi perché difatti erano giovani, perché altrimenti li prendevano e li mandavano in Germania. E allora cosa fa? Li portavo fuori la da mio nonno e andavamo sulla linea della Svizzera e rompavamo la, come si chiama, la rete e poi li facevamo passare. Dato che noi oramai sapevamo gli orari che passavano, che c’erano i tedeschi. C’erano i tedeschi e passavano e, però dato che se vedevano noialtri bambini, ragazzi insomma così, non dicevano niente anzi, si fermavano: ‘cosa fate qui?’, insomma quel poco che dicevano. Ma eravamo lì che si tremava [laughs] perché adesso qui se si accorgono che li abbiamo mandati di là dopo. E insomma fatto un po’ di tutto, ecco, e tutto per prendere qualche cosa, per tirare avanti perché la fame è brutta eh. E non e che.
EP: Assolutamente.
EM: Ecco e [unclear] allora sono andati, e poi io dopo sono andata a, in un, una mia zia mi ha detto: ‘Guarda’, dice, ‘che c’è una sartoria, Neglia, che aveva [unclear], c’è ancora qui a Milano, che cerca le, una ragazza insomma così, se vuoi andare?, eh sì, [unclear] perché [unclear] e allora sono andata lì da loro. E lui aveva il fratello che era capitano dei, ah Madonna, come se ciama quel lì, di quelli che andavano in montagna, come si dice? Che scappavano in montagna, orca
EP: I partigiani?
EM: Ecco, sì, eh, non mi veniva. Eh, cosa vuole, l’età, ottantasei sono eh. E, e così difatti, era un capitano di loro. Però lui, io andavo là al mattino prima delle otto, eh, allora picchiavo la claire e lui sapeva che ero io. Allora si alzava, quando era qui a Milano si alzava e poi andava insomma così e allora noi io dopo andavo dentro io e tiravo su la claire e insomma aprivo i negozi. Ma viene che suo fratello mi dice: ‘Guarda, vai a casa mia’, che era arrivato lì, ‘che c’è una cosa da portare qui’. Però non mi aveva mica detto cosa c’era dentro. E allora lui abitava in piazza, lì vicino Piazza del Duomo che adesso la vietta lì me non la ricordo più. E vicino a Piazza del Duomo allora andavo, dunque da Via Plinius [Via Plinio], qui in Corso Buenos Aires, andare là bisognava fare quasi tutto a piedi perché i tram, poi tutte le volte che io dovevo prendere il tram suonava l’allarme, ecco allora a pie [blows her nose] scusi ma.
EP: Ci mancherebbe.
EM: A piedi, e allora vado là e sua moglie m’ha dato sta, in mano una cosa lunga così. Mi fa: ‘Guarda che c’è dentro di fare gli abiti’ ma sì, difatti c’era dentro, era tutto coperta di stoffa. Quando sono arrivata in negozio lui la desfa, la sfatta e poi fa così e lo apre, il coso che c’è dentro, il bastone. Non c’erano mica dentro i soldi [laughs] che se qualcuno sapeva, guardi, quante volte sono andata a finire che se mi beccavano non so dove andavo a finire eh. Perché loro, quella gente lì, non c’interessava se io avevo dieci anni, o se ne avevo quindici, o se ne avevo, perché loro eh, mandavano tutti dove là in Germania. E la, così e allora, beh, le cose sono andate così. Ma viene che, dopo, tornando indietro ancora quando mio papà è morto, c’era mio nonno, no, ci fa mia mamma: ‘Eh cosa vuoi’, dice, ‘tutti abbiamo la casa’, come per dire, ognuno c’ha la sua casa, ognuno c’ha i suoi interessi. E allora c’ho detto: ‘Va benÈ, io ho sentito, anche se avevo undici anni, dieci anni, non mi scappava niente, come non mi scappa niente adesso, e così. E allora sono. Poi viene che finisce così insomma la guerra è finita, quello che è e io ero abbastanza stanca di [unclear] perché ormai la guerra è finita nel ’45 dunque io avevo quasi quindici anni. E allora ho smesso di andare lì da Neglia perché ho detto qui a fare la sarta, a dire la verità, stare lì tutto il giorno non mi andava. E difatti sono andata alla, in una ditta che facevano le cartoline, i cosi per i sposi però insomma sono andata dentro lì e sono stata dentro mica male. Però la mia, insomma ho dovuto farne di tutti i colori, guardi, con mia zia, la sorella di mia mamma è stata operata d’un fibroma che era nel ’44. ’44 e lì mia mamma quando andava a trovarla, diceva il dottore: ‘Eh’, fa, ‘cosa vuolÈ, dice, ‘signora, sua sorella andrà fuori quattro anni (?)’. Mia mamma ha capito, ha preso la suora [laughs] meno male che c’erano lì dei parenti e l’hanno tenuta perché aveva una forza che non era tanto grande ma. E così e poi allora l’ha portata a casa. Allora io non ho potuto più andare a lavorare perché dovevo farci da infermiera, perché mia mamma, lei se vedeva una cosa guai sveniva. Perché lei se poi vedeva un dottore, con su il camice bianco, basta, era fatta. E allora insomma siamo, ho fatto l’infermiera e amen. Dopo sono andata ancora a lavorare dentro nella ditta che ero prima perché sapevano come lavoravo e tutto. E poi dopo quando, dopo mi sono sposata a vent’anni, vent’uno ho avuto mio figlio, ecco, però ne ho fatte.
EP: Una bella vita intensa.
EM: Sì. Ecco. Perché mio marito era un partigiano.
EP: Ah.
EM: Partigiano. E allora cosa faceva? Andava a che, a mettere i, come si chiama le, mettere su i fogli lì.
EP: I manifesti.
EM: Ecco, i manifesti, tutte quelle cose lì e sempre lo prendevano e allora la sottoscritta doveva andare là, pagare per farlo venir fuori. Sono andata avanti un pochino così, dopo mi sono stancata, ho detto, no, adesso vado con mia madre e porto dietro il figlio, come dì, ti te se arrangi, ‘e te t’arrangi’ perché un bel momentino ero stufa di lavorare sempre per dare la cosa agli altri e io ero sempre indietro, ecco. Perché dovevo, andavo a lavorare con le ciabatte e un grembiule nero, sempre, festa, giorno di lavoro io ero così perché per forza dovevo pagare quello che mi. Eh, cosa vuole, andando in giro a fare, diciamo le figure, io no e allora.
EP: Allora, io andrei un po’, ehm
EM: Sì.
EP: A chiederle alcune cose che lei ha tirato fuori finora, che mi sembrano molto interessanti. Ehm, prima tra tutte, un po’ la storia di papà, del suo papà. Come è successo il fatto? Quando è successo che, appunto, è venuto a mancare? Un po’, se può raccontarmi un po’ come è successa questa cosa.
EM: Sì, è successa che lui, dato che dormivano giù nella, nelle caverne lì, dei castelli, e c’era molta umidità e così e poi non mangiava troppo perché eravamo noi altri e se cercavano se aveva qualcosa di lasciarlo in casa. E così ha preso la, aspetta, come si chiama, la polmonite doppia e allora ha continuato così e insomma in, quattro settimane, quattro settimane è andato. Tanto poco che adesso, io compio gli anni al 16, al 19 è morto lui. Tornando al [unclear], al 15 c’è morto un fratello di mia mamma, lì nella porta, che andava, è andato su a trovare con mio fratello, a trovare la bambina che era su anche lei con mio fratello, là da mio nonno e è andato sotto il treno. Nel venire a casa è andato sotto il treno, lì alla Camerlata in, ecco. È andato sotto il treno perché lui, dato che era con la bicicletta e non se la sentiva così tardi di venire a Milano con la bicicletta, e allora è andato giù e c’ha detto al capo: ‘Guardi’, dice, ‘io, m’avete messo su la bicicletta perché domani mattina ce l’ho bisogno per andare a lavorarÈ. E lui, c’ha detto, sì, sì, in quella che dice ‘sì, sì’ fa così, il treno lì della Nord si chiudono i portelli, il basello si chiude. Caspita! E lì è andato sotto. Ecco, vede, ecco così e allora insomma uno per un perché, un altro per un’altro, hann preso tutti le cose lì nei polmoni. Eh, l’unica diciamo sono io e mio fratello.
EP: E a proposito di suo fratello Emilio, lui si è salvato perché è stato portato via.
EM: Sì, perché lo abbiamo portato via.
EP: Può raccontarmi un po’ come era la vita, appunto, di chi era sfollato? Come si organizzava?
EM: Quando era sfollato, allora mia mamma lei non, non andava fuori perché aveva il difetto che era nata senza, la cosa lì nella bocca, senza, come si chiama quello lì, il palato. E allora hanno cercato di mettercelo tante volte ma non sono mai riusciti. E allora dato che non parlava molto bene e allora ero sempre io quella che, che andava in giro perché lei non, se no dovevo esserci assieme perché lei se li domandava qualche cosa, noi oramai eravamo abituati a sentirla e allora capivo quello che voleva ma gli altri no. E allora insomma siamo andati, sono sempre diciamo corsa io, per questo, per quello lì, per quello là e via [laughs]. È stata qui fino a 82 anni. Pensi che quando ci è morto mio papà, si è, le si è staccato un embolo e l’aveva proprio qui, si vedeva, eh, proprio la goccia dell’embolo. Il professore che adesso si chiama Granata e adesso non c’è più perché era già un po’ anziano prima, c’aveva detto che doveva stare qui ancora sei mesi. È stata qui fino all’88 [laughs], guardi lei, dal ’42 all’88.
EP: In barba alla morte.
EM: Ecco, e c’era il suo, lì nella porta c’era un dottore che son venuti grandi assieme. E allora c’ha detto, ‘vedi’, che si chiamava Angela mia mamma, c’ha detto: ‘Vedi Angela, te sei fortunata che c’hai qui una ragazza che fa tutto lei’. E fa, ‘Pensa tÈ, fa, e io così c’ho detto: ‘Fermi dottore, lei mia mamma ci sono io ma dietro di me non c’è più nessuno [laughs] e allora io mi devo arrangiarÈ.
EP: Ehm, e quindi quando c’è stato da portare via suo fratello Emilio se ne è occupata lei di fatto.
EM: Sì, sì, portato su io, sì, sì, con la. E poi andavo su ogni tanto a trovarlo e dovevo fare Milano-Malnate. Malnate andare giù e prendere la tradotta, perché una volta c’erano le tradotte, non c’era la, la tradotta che andava su a Bizzarone, però si fermava prima, un paesino prima, a Uggiate. Da Uggiate a sù, là da mio nonno dovevo farla sempre a piedi [laughs]. Tante volte avevo la valigia con dentro quello che mia mamma ci mandava perché là non c’era niente e allora lei lavorava a Zaini e allora, il cioccolato insomma e il suo principale le diceva perché la conosceva, ci diceva: ‘Guarda, fa così, quando tiri su la roba per fare, per pulire i cosi dici, lascia lì qualche cosa e tiri su’, e difatti portava a casa i pezzi così di [laughs], fatti su dentro nel sacco. Ecco se non aveva quello lì non so se, forse forse se mi veniva anche a noialtri il male ai polmoni.
EP: Ehm, un’altra storia di quelle che ha raccontato, mi sembra un po’ interessante da approfondire. La storia del capitano partigiano, questo capitano partigiano che viveva di fatto clandestinamente.
EM: Sì, sì. Sì.
EP: Come l’ha conosciuto? L’ha conosciuto appunto nell’attività?
EM: Era il fratello di Neglia, sì, il fratello minore.
EP: E lei sapeva un po’ di cosa si occupava, cosa facevano con gli altri partigiani?
EM: No, lui, no, lui, così. Era solo che di notte, perché, guarda, tante volte avevano da discutere no tra loro perché insomma bisognava anche, mettersi d’accordo, perché sulle montagne qui in giro ce ne erano tanti, non è perché, e poi noi altri adesso così che io poi che ero sempre in giro. Guardi che la c’è la, come si chiama? Aspetta, ci sono i scelbini, noi dicevamo i scelbini a quelli dei, della camicia nera, guardi che ci sono i scelbini, di lì, di là, perché essendo in giro li vedevo eh, eh ma lo sa che andavano anche nelle case eh. Così anche noi lì al 12 in Borsieri che abitavamo lì, oh venivano lì a, dicevano sempre: ‘Signora, ma c’è il tale dei tali? Adesso, c’è quello lì, c’è quello là?’ Noi dicevamo sempre: ‘No, non l’abbiamo mica visto, ma poi era militarÈ. Noi facevamo sempre finta di non sapere niente. Invece erano cose che, invece erano lì. Sa che tanti, abbiamo tirato indietro le, i cosi lì come si chiamano, i, [sighs] quello lì dei vestiti.
EP: Gli armadi, le credenze.
EM: Ecco, gli armadi, perché noi là avevamo le cose, ah, come si chiamano? Che andavano d’un altra, cose bugiarde, no? Ecco, si chiamavano le cose bugiarde perché allora così tiravamo indietro l’armadio, li nascondevamo di dietro, eh, però con una cosa che loro stavano alti perché se quelli là guardavano sotto [laughs], li vedevano. Insomma, guardi, siamo andati in tanti di quei rischi che non so come faccio a essere qui ancora. Adesso non perché ma ne ho passate eh! E poi c’avevo detto dopo un, c’era venuto giù mia zia, sorella di mia mamma, di parte di Pavia, e loro erano sfollati là ma allora, mio zio, mia zia così con la, con mia cugina, erano sfollati lì, avevano la casa, fatto bene diciamo ma è bene che ogni tanto venivano giù, no? Per, così. E allora io ci dico: ‘Zia, guarda, adesso te devi andare a casa, stai attenta che se viene su il Pippo’ – perché c’era un aeroplano che – ‘che suonano l’allarme, non andare giù dal treno’. Sai dove ci sono le cose così, quelli lì sono, è ferro. Te vai sotto a quelle cose, alla, ai sedili, ai sedili vai sotto lì perché lì non passa la. Sì, sì, sì, sì, poi invece quando è stata lì dopo Pavia, è suonata l’allarme, ha visto gli altri accorrere, corre anche lei e difatti c’è andato dentro la pallottola di qui, è venuto fuori di là. Ma a me, dico la verità, non è mai capitato niente perché io stavo lì e dicevo, tanto se scappo, quelli là mitragliano. Eh è inutile che io vado a farmi mitragliare, per che cosa? Mi buttavo sotto, allora ero magra, ero [unclear].
EP: E si ricorda un bombardamento particolare?
EM: Ah sì, nel ’43. Nel ’43 noi abbiamo dovuto perché è venuto giù gli spezzoni incendiari, no, lì al Borsieri. Allora ci hanno fatti andare fuori dall’altra parte perché avevamo i picconi, le cose così, perché c’erano le case vicine, ma combinazione la, insomma era [unclear], che come, mhm. Insomma fuori dal 12 siamo andati con i picconi così, e abbiamo fatto neh e siamo andati al 14, ecco, perché altrimenti non si poteva, non si poteva venire fuori di qui. Perché i piccoli, incendiari, andato giù fino al secondo piano. E allora c’era tutto un, il fumo [unclear] perché nella casa c’è il mobilio, c’è e hann bruciato tutto e allora. E quante volte che chiudevo la porta, ‘mamma, vai’ e allora con la bottiglia dell’acqua, perché non si sapeva quanto tempo si stava giù, la bottiglia dell’acqua e il pane che se avevamo avanzato perché non sapevamo quando arrivavamo su [laughs]. Ecco, e allora, insomma così. E quando io stavo chiudendo l’uscio, proprio spezzone incendiario, proprio, mi è venuto proprio quasi a filo, tra me, tra me e l’altra signora che è la mia vicina di casa, ecco proprio lì è andato giù. Meno male, perché se mi viene sulla testa, non ero mica qui a raccontarlo.
EP: E nel quartiere Isola avevate un rifugio o c’erano i rifugi dentro i condomini?
EM: Dentro i condomini, sì, sì, come adesso. Adesso ci sono le. E noialtri, lì al Borsieri, al 12, sono venuti fuori i tedeschi a guardare, prima che succedeva, proprio il casino, ecco, perché il casino proprio è incominciato nel ’42, eh, quasi ’43 insomma, perché allora sì, venivano su, suonava l’allarme, erano già lì che mitragliavano qui alla, alla Bicocca [laughs]. Adesso non è per, e allora, , io tante volte se era di giorno, non mi muovevo neanche di casa, andavo lì sotto a quegli usci lì, cose, ecco.
EP: E negli spazi in cui andavate a rifugiarvi in condominio, c’erano un po’ tutte le persone del palazzo.
EM: Sì, sì, sì. Tutte.
EP: Che cosa succedeva dentro? C’era.
EM: Eh beh, sa, c‘era un signore che aveva la chitarra, no, e allora per farci stare lì, noialtri ragazzi insomma e così, e suonava e poi si cantava, no, tanto per [unclear] che ogni tanto si sentiva [mimics the noise of a low-flying aircfraft] da qui ci si spostava di là perché era la, la [unclear]
EP: L’urto proprio.
EM: Sì, l’urto del, perché lì in Via Pietro Borsieri sono venute giù tante eh perché con la scusa che c’era la, la Brera [Breda], c’era la ferrovia e allora cercavano, cercavano ma hanno preso solo le case, non hanno né loro, quelle lì che facevano le, i motori per gli apparecchi e tutto, quelli lì non l’hanno presa. Ma hanno preso le case.
EP: E si ricorda qualche canzone che cantavate nei rifugi? C’erano delle canzoni particolari o non so?
EM: No, tutte cose che se mi sentivano, mi portavano dentro [laughs]
EP: [laughs]
EM: Perché era, adesso aspetti eh, [pauses] cantava: ‘la donna del DucÈ, in milanese però, ‘la donna del Duce, la fa una piruletta, e sotto c’era scritto, che era una bestia’. [laughs] Se mi sentivano, mi portavano via [laughs]. Ma lui con la chitarra ma dopo, dato che di sopra c’era uno che era nella Unpa, proprio che guardava quelli che quando non c’era gli apparecchi, quello veniva in giro, guardava che se vedeva la luce, noi sulle, la, le finestre avevamo le doppie, ehm, come si chiama? Le doppie cose così, no, nere, per non far vedere la luce e poi il straccio nero di sopra alla cosa, eh! Insomma [laughs] tutto per non far vedere perché se andavamo fuori e poi fare in fretta perché loro, uno dentro in casa che tirava subito la tenda, e insomma. Guardi, ne abbiamo fatte di tutti i colori.
EP: Beh, sicuramente il quartiere dove stava lei era un quartiere particolarmente vivace.
EM: Sì, sì, sì, sì, oh, eccome, eccome anche. Pensare che prima che, quell’anno lì che c’è venuta la guerra, no, ma c’era la ottobre, a ottobre non si sapeva ancora quello che c’era. Sì, sapevamo che c’era la guerra però. E allora era lì, era il giorno della festa della fontana, Santa Maria alla Fontana, ecco, perché noi era la nostra chiesa. E allora l’ultima volta che ho, che così, è venuto in giro, sai, venivano in giro i carrelli con su il, ah come si chiama, che hanno fatto vedere anche un po’ di tempo fa. Sul carrellino c’era una cosa che
EP: Una manovella che [unclear]
EM: Una manovella e dopo suonava dentro il, perché era fatto tutto di chiodi, no, però c’era
EP: La musica.
EM: La musica, insomma ecco, e allora prendevamo sotto il portone eh, si ballava, [laughs] eh, cosa
Volevo fare?
EP: [laughs] È giusto.
EM: E d’altronde non si faceva mica niente di male. Adesso invece non vanno in nessun posto. Vanno lì nelle cose però non sanno nè ballare nè divertirsi, noi invece con la stupidata ci divertivamo [laughs].
EP: Ehm, e mi dica un po’ signora Enrica, lei ha fatto le scuole sempre lì, in Isola?
EM: Sì, sì, sì.
EP: E come era la scuola lì?
EM: Ah, la scuola lì è sempre stata una scuola abbastanza buona insomma, ecco perché anche adesso la Rosa Govone ci sono tutte le, diciamo dalla prima fino alla terza media. Mio figlio l’ha fatta lì anche lui.
EP: E lei ha finito tutte le scuole lì?
EM: No, gioia, io ho finito che avevo dieci anni, basta. Dovevo mangiare e guardare i signorini lì, eh! Poi dopo [unclear] solo mia mamma non si aveva la, diciamo, i soldi o quello che è di andare, come tanti che stavano bene, si sono, sono sfollati di qua, di là e sono arrivati solo quando, eh, troppo bella! Noi invece con la roba, ‘ci sono le uova là’, si va bene allora [makes the noise of steps] via, quando si arrivava lì sulla roba, basta, dieci, dodici e poi dopo non c’era più niente.
EP: Ehm, lei si ricorda quando è stato dato l’annuncio che si entrava in guerra?
EM: Sì, è nel ‘39.
EP: E lei dov’era? Si ricorda un po’ la situazione com’era?
EM: Sì, sì, la situazione era che tutti dicevano che era la fine del mondo. Ci sono stati dei, [clears throat] come si chiama, dei conti qui a Milano che sono andati a finire a niente perché hanno venduto tutto e poi sono stati fregati perché la fine del mondo non è mica venuta [laughs]. Sì, a quelli che sono stati sotto i bombardamenti. Beh, quelli lì per forza, come quando è finita, prima di finire la guerra che qui a Gorla, alla, seicento e rotti bambini sono stati sotto. Mi ricordo eh, perché mi viene su ancora la pelle d’oca adesso [laughs]. Eh sì!
EP: [sighs] Ehm, quando appunto è stato dato l’annuncio, di, che si entrava in guerra,
EM: Ah sì.
EP: Come ne parlavano gli adulti? Appunto, c’era questa cosa che lei diceva un po’ la fine del mondo.
EM: No, ma ognuno.
EP: Ma voi ragazzini, ragazzi, bambini, cosa vi dicevano, cosa vi spiegavano?
EM: No, no, niente.
EP: Niente.
EM: La, le nostre, i nostri genitori, lei non sono come quelli di adesso. Non dicevano niente. Se sappiamo qualche cosa è perché si sentiva. Perché avevamo le orecchie che [laughs], come si dice, ecco. Ma altrimenti loro non dicevano mica niente, dicevano solo: ‘No, te fuori alla sera dopo l’orario non ci vai!’. Ma il mio papà tante volte mi diceva: ‘No, eh!’. ‘Senti’, cioè mia mamma gli diceva, ‘se vuoi prendere le sigarette mandala adesso che sono le sei, non alle otto’. Perché insomma non c’era in giro nessuno, però, e allora dovevo andarci a prendere le sigarette, facevo in fretta [laughs], perché. No, no, i genitori, i nostri genitori non dicevano mica niente. Noi non, adesso io che sono la prima, sono venuta a saperlo dopo, adesso faccio per dire che una persona doveva avere il bambino quello che è, ma non per lei eh! Ah, perché se no mi tirava dietro anche qualche cosa eh, non si poteva parlare come fanno adesso. Adesso ci sono le bambine lì di sei, sette anni, ‘ah, mia mamma è incinta, ah, mia mamma deve averÈ, oh! Adesso non è per, ma non si può a quell’età lì, adesso, eh! Io momenti che mi sono fatto il fidanzato, che avevo diciotto anni, a momenti momenti mi curava ancora [unclear], teste qui in casa, te va lì come, stava lì sul portone, sulla porta di casa, ecco. Chiacchierava con la gente ma ogni tanto veniva dentro a vedere perché non si poteva stare come adesso che vanno in campagna assieme, no? [laughs] C’erano tutte le regole.
EP: Eh, era diverso.
EM: E con le regole siamo andati anche abbastanza bene. Adesso non perché, perché adesso è proprio, eh, troppo adesso.
EP: Vorrei ritornare ancora un momento indietro e chiederle cosa, cosa succedeva al confine con la Svizzera. Lei prima raccontava che aprivate dei varchi nelle reti.
EM: Sì, sì, dei varchi nelle reti. Dopo lì mio nonno abitava proprio vicino alla, dove c’erano dentro i tedeschi, la, la, come si chiama? Che adesso, che adesso per esempio c’è dentro la Finanza insomma ecco, con la perché adesso ormai non c’è più. C’è dentro la Finanza, di sopra ci sono tutti i letti, tutte le insomma, è proprio una casa insomma, come se fosse. E allora dato che io, oramai con mio nonno così, eravamo proprio lì, si può dire a portone a portone, allora quando passavano con i cani, no, noialtri ragazzi, ‘ah, che bello, Tom, Tim’, insomma si chiamavano e allora loro venivano lì con il cane, insomma non c’hann mai fatto niente. Però se vedevano un adulto, allora [mimics a growling watchdog] ringhiavano, perché era, invece noi no. Dopo lì mio nonno era con una sua, era in casa di una sua parente, una sua cugina. E allora diciamo quella cugina lì aveva dei figli, delle figlie, e [unclear], andava, li lavavano, li stiravano le camice, eh sì tanto anche per prendere qualche cosa. Allora quando ci vedevano giù non, noi facevamo anche a posta, io, mio cugino, insomma così, eravamo quasi tutte della stessa età, e allora si, ‘Ohi, questo, Tom, Tim’, loro stavano lì a chiacchierare, intanto, magari avanti venti passi ma dato che lì è tutto un bosco, avanti venti passi c’era magari mio zio con mio nonno che facevano quel mestiere lì, ecco, allora noi facevamo le spie, ecco [laughs], facevamo le spie, se lo sapevano non so la passavamo liscia, eh! [laughs]
EP: Ehm, e lei cosa ne pensava da bambina dei tedeschi? Le facevano paura o [unclear]?
EM: Sì, sì, anche i ragazzi della mia età, eh, ragazzi proprio, che li davano, facevano i piccoli italiani. E difatti io, mio papà è venuto là una volta perché io facevo la, quando facevo la terza, no, mio papà c’era ancora. È venuto lì perché c’avevo una maestra che era una fascistona e insomma, a me mi lasciava sempre indietro perché io non sono mai andata vestita di piccola italiana. Prima di tutto, mio papà non voleva, perché non aveva lui la tessera del [laughs], secondo è che non avevamo i soldi abbastanza perché eravamo in tre, eh insomma, mia mamma quando faceva la portiera prendeva centosessanta lire al mese. Adesso prendono i milioni e non ne hanno abbastanza ancora [laughs]. E dovevano stare lì dalle sette del mattino fino alle dieci di sera. Adesso fanno otto ore sì e no, oh, pare che facciano tutto loro. Mia mamma aveva tre scale là da fare e senza i ballatoi e tutto. Oh, non è, però insomma, ce la siamo cavata. Anche se io, se mi veniva in, ho cercato ma non li trovo, delle fotografie di quando avevo quell’età lì, no, [unclear] avevo i calamai fino a qui eh, altri quella di.
EP: Ehm, in quartiere Isola sempre, tornando a Via Borsieri, ehm, c’erano i tedeschi? C’erano i fascisti? Giravano i fascisti?
EM: Tutti fascisti.
EP: Tutti fascisti. C’era uno che si chiamava, era. C’era quell’altro che si chiamava, che aveva la sorella e quello lì non mi ricordo più come si chiamava. Li hanno uccisi tutti quando è finita la guerra, lì sulla, la cosa della, lì c’è in Via Sebenico, c’è la chiesa, ecco, e prima c’è un lavatorio. Lì sono pochi anni che hanno messo tutto a posto, perché prima c’erano dentro tutte le mitragliate di quelli che hanno ucciso. E sempre all’orario che venivo a casa io dal lavoro. Io già stare in fondo, perché allora venivo giù, col tram. Il tram faceva solo, qui in Via Plinius, la Via Plinius così, qui prendevo il tram, veniva giù in Via, qual’è che Via l’è quella via, Via, Via, Via, eh, non mi ricordo, che viene la stazione, basta, dopo non venivano di qui. Basta, girava tutto di là e andava a metà strada, a metà Viale Zara, dunque io ero tutto fuori, eh, ho detto: ‘Piuttosto di fare di là, faccio di qua e arrivo subito in casa’. Allora sempre a piedi, sempre, se avrei qui cinque centesimi, cinque centesimi, di tutta la strada che ho fatto, sarei millionaria.
EP: [laughs] E il 25 aprile se lo ricorda?
EM: Eh, sì, perché venivo a casa dal lavoro e sono arrivata lì alla stazione centrale perché il fratello di Neglia aveva avvisato, ‘Manda a casa tutti, perché interveniamo’, insomma così. E allora, ma quella che abitava più distante ero io perché da Via Plinius venire qui in Borsiere è un bel pezzo. Insomma, sono venuta via di là alle dieci. Sa a che ora sono arrivata a casa? Che è tutta strada diritta? Ma non ho potuto fare la strada diritta perché quando sono stata lì in Via, arca miseria, insomma lì in Duca d’Aosta, no, che la [unclear], qui c’è, ehm, petta come si chiamava quello lì, l’albergo che c’è lì così, proprio di fronte, di fianco alla stazione centrale, lì c’è un albergone grande. Questi sparavano su, quelli là sparavano giù, eh, e non ho potuto passare perché mi è venuto incontro un ragazzo che abitava lì verso Borsieri in Casteglia e mi fa: ’Signorina, dove sta andando lei?’. E vu dì: ‘Io dovrei passare e andare a casa, abito in Borsieri’. ‘Orca miseria’, fa, ‘allora’, fa, ‘tagliamo dentro di là’. E siamo andati fuori, dove c’è la, come si chiama quella là, quella zona lì. Arca miseria, quasi Porta Nuova, abbiamo girato dall’altra parte, insomma, e siamo andati lì. Arriviamo lì a Porta Nuova, non si può passare, perché lì c’erano le scuole, ci sono, sono ancora le scuole, e c’erano i, le camice nere, che prendevano tutti i ragazzi, così, e li portavano dentro perché insomma si vede insomma che avevano paura, non so di che cosa comunque. Allora lì c’era, dove c’è la finanza adesso, in quella via lì, ecco. Allora lì di dietro c’era giù la casa e allora cosa abbiamo fatto? Cammina cammina, e ci siamo arrampicati su sulla casa e siamo andati giù in Corso Como. Arriviamo lì in Corso Como, allora c’era il passaggio che la ferrovia, no, il coso lì e un po’ il ponte che andava giù in Corso Como. Arriviamo lì, eh, e chi, dalla Borsieri, dal fondo della Borsieri, sparavano dentro e questi qui sparavano fuori perché c’era lì la, quelli lì della, perché lì prima, una volta, lì di dietro insomma, c’era la Finanza perché arrivava roba di così, era tutto lì insomma, era smistamento ecco. E allora ma c’erano lì i tedeschi e allora, quello là sparavano fuori, questi qui sparavano dentro. E allora stavamo lì, no, a pensarci su, adesso qui, se facciamo tutto il giro da Carlo Farini e così, ma dopo là in Postrengo [Pastrengo], come si fa a passare? E allora in quella è arrivato due signori, no, un po’ abbastanza, e allora c’hann detto: ‘Ohè, anche noi abitiamo di là del pontÈ. Sì, va bene, allora tutti in quattro, prima uno e poi quando non si sentiva più a sparare, passava quell’altro perché c’erano le cose fatte dei muretti così, così, così insomma per le bombe, per la, perché se mitragliavano lei li correva in giro a quei muretti lì e insomma si cercava di. E difatti sono arrivata a casa alle otto di sera. [laughs]
EP: [laughs] Una lunga giornata.
EM: Una lunga giornata. Sono venuta via di là alle dieci del mattino. Mia mamma che non, era lì che continuava ad andare avanti indietro, non sapeva più cosa, cosa averne in tasca, ti te se, te non sai più cosa ce n’hai in tasca ma io che sono stata lì.
EP: Prima di andare verso la nostra conclusione, volevo chiederle, come mai chiamavate le camicie nere scelbini?
EM: Eh perché, ehm, come si chiama, portavano come un fazzoletto, come una cosa, che, e poi avevano su il coso del fascio, che la roba proprio, perché la, loro la. Allora disevano, uhè, ghe scelbini, perché se ghe disevo, miscimis, [laughs] capiven. Invece a dire scelbini [laughs], noi sapevamo che erano loro.
EP: E adesso le faccio due ultime domande che riguardano proprio chi bombardava. All’epoca, lei che era una ragazza, insomma una ragazzina, insomma
EM: Sì, una ragazzina, ma [unclear]
EP: Sì, che cosa pensava di chi bombardava, di chi buttava giù le bombe?
EM: Eh, si pensava appunto di dover dire: ‘Ma caspita’, vu dì, se vengon, ma si diceva, se vengono dall’America e così, e passavano sopra la Svizzera, eh, per venire qui. Perché io, quando dormivo al letto, con mia mamma, ecco, io, prima che loro suonavano l’allarme, io ero già su eh, li sentivo, io. Se c’è una cosa, io, avere la testa sul cuscino, io la sento. Ancora adesso, eh. Vede, tante volte mio fratello mi dice: ‘Ma come fai a sentire?’ Eh, la sento! Arriva la, tante volte sento che svegliano. Arriva la croce rossa, ma come fai a sapere? Eppur, mi alzo, dopo si sente. È una cosa che subito sento.
EP: E a distanza di tanti anni, che cosa pensa adesso?
EM: Eh, penso che, che era meglio che non facevano niente perché di cose, e poi ancora adesso, quando apro la televisione che sento certe cose, guardi, adesso non perché ma adesso non fanno più quelli che facevano prima, però sono lì eh! Sono lì! Perché prima, quando in tempo di guerra, i giovani se li prendevano che avevano venti, ventuno anni, no, così e la mandavano a Villa, spetta come si chiamava, a Villa d’Este, sa dov’è la Villa d’Este qui a Milano? Vicino al, mamma mia, che memoria che [unclear], ce l’ho ma non sono più capace di, a Musocco, ecco. Musocco, sulla destra, eh, andando così a metà strada di Musocco c’era una, una caserma, una casa, lì, quello che è, e allora una volta di lì passava un fossetto, un fosso insomma, e lì dicevano la Villa d’Este perché ogni tanto trovavano qualcuno e lo buttavano fuori dalla finestra, dentro nell’acqua perché, tutto perché? Perché volevano, ma non tutti sapevamo che, perché sai sentivano per televisione, per radio, no? La radio bisognava sentirla ma nascosti, lì tutti con le orecchie così perché se mi vedevano, mi sentivano, guai! Venivano in casa, distruggevano tutto, eh. Altroché, bisognava stare attenti come si faceva. Se una persona guardava due volte, mettiamo, uno di loro, il fucile veniva giù dalla spalla e facevano quello che dovevano fare. Altroché.
EP: Va bene. Io la ringrazio moltissimo signora Enrica perché possiamo interrompere adesso.
EM: Sì, sì.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Enrica Mariani
Description
An account of the resource
Enrica Mariani recollects her wartime experiences in Milan: her brother dying of bronchitis after spending too much time in the shelter and her father working in an armaments factory. The aggressive fascist militiamen and the long hours she spent in the shelter listening to a man playing the guitar and singing songs mocking the regime. She recalls her partisan husband, who was repeatedly jailed for spreading subversive propaganda material. She describes the 1943 bombings when she narrowly escaped an incendiary. She remembers working at a very young age as a seamstress, following her father’s death and her mother leaving her job as a doorman. She stresses the social divide among evacuees: the better off were afraid to lose their wealth while working class people had a fatalistic, resigned attitude toward war. She discusses helping people fleeing to Switzerland by breaching the border fence, as to avoid detention as military internees in Germany and describes draft-dodgers living in hideouts. She recalls how she was able to sense incoming aircraft well before the alarm sounded.
Creator
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Erica Picco
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2017-12-09
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Peter Schulze
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01:03:49 audio recording
Language
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ita
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AMarianiE171209, PMarianiE1701
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Bizzarone
Switzerland
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1943
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
incendiary device
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/260/3406/PGardinerEF1701.2.jpg
3d1d6163b01832b82e5e90e52d7d1125
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/260/3406/AGardinerEF170809.1.mp3
344ed80f38814e93bb28e5aed249c0bb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gardiner, Ernest Frederick
Ernest Frederick Gardiner
Ernest F Gardiner
Ernest Gardiner
E F Gardiner
E Gardiner
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Ernest Frederick Gardiner (1923 - 2019, 1322805 Royal Air Force).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-04
2017-08-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gardiner, EF
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PL: My name is Pam Locker and I am here in the home of Mr Ernest Frederick Gardiner [address redacted] and Mr Gardiner’s daughter, Lynn Moult, is also with us. So I would just like to thank you again, Fred, very much indeed, on behalf of the Bomber Command Digital Archive for agreeing to talk to us.
FG: My pleasure.
PL: Thank you. So Fred, I guess where would, a good place for us to start is perhaps your childhood and a little bit about your parents perhaps, and how you eventually became part of Bomber Command, so.
FG: I was born in Banbury, 1923, and I went to a local Church of England school, called St Leonards, when I was five, until I was fourteen. And my father worked for Morris Motors at Cowley, Oxford, and my mother didn’t work, out, but she died when I was just coming up to ten years old and I was then looked after, supposedly, by my father’s spinster sister, but I think we looked after her rather than she looking after us; she was a bit useless! [Chuckle] Anyway by the time I was fourteen I went to work in a furniture factory and I was trained mainly as a french polisher. Then the war started when I was sixteen, and I thought, the job I had wasn’t reserved because it was furniture making, although they were changing over to making gliders, but I wouldn’t have escaped being called up, so I jumped the gun as it were, and joined the RAF rather than finish up in the trenches, haha. So I was called up after that, after I registered. I was called up in November 1941 and went through usual training processes. I went to initial training place at Padgate, near Warrington, where I was kitted up and then went on to Blackpool. I was in Blackpool in digs, civilian digs, for four months doing the usual military training plus initial learning of Morse code and signals. After that, I, after a spell of leave, I was posted to Number 10 Signals School at Madley near Hereford and that was to complete the course as a wireless operator which meant training on radio equipment, continuing Morse code training, we had to reach a speed of twenty words a minute. After that, another little spell of leave and then I spent four months in Leconfield, near Beverley, Yorkshire, and my job there was to fly as a wireless operator with trainee pilots. So we had a trainee pilot and an instructor pilot and myself, the wireless operator, and my job there was to collect bearings from different stations, so that they could be used by the trainee pilot, and that was quite a nice job, I liked that job, for four months and I had to go back to Madley for another three months to take what they called the Aircraft Facility, the aircraft level of training which, until then I was supposed not to have been flying, but that was very nicely ignored I think. And after training there and I was sent to do an air gunnery course, that was at Walney Island, Barrow in Furness, and we flew on Boulton Paul Defiants, sing, two seater fighters, to do our training and we had to fire Browning machine gun from the turret at targets being towed by other aircraft. That was quite exciting, and from there I went back to Madley, did a further course and from there I went to an Operational Training Unit, an OTU, where I was crewed up, and that was an interesting experience. We, there were I think twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty of all the categories, and forty air gunners, because there were two air gunners in a crew. And we were mixed up in a hangar and told to sort ourselves out into crews. It was a bit strange, but I think it was a very effective, very worthwhile because you couldn’t really complain after that you see, it was your choice. From there, after we finished OTU, which was a three month course, and flying Wellingtons and doing practice, all sorts of practice flights, short distances, doing short take offs and landings and longer trips up to about eight hours, flying from A to B to C all round the UK, at night as well, to gain experience, did all the job, each one of us doing our job. So, after that we went to train on Manchesters and Lancasters and we were then given a flight engineer join the crew, so there were seven of us. A short course and we went on to Bomber Command which was then at Syerston, near Newark, and we were there and did, well we did, we were shot down on our fifth operation. We did, the first one we did was to Essen and then we did three in a row to Hamburg and then we were on our way to Mannheim, Mannheim Ludwigshafen, its full title, and that’s where we were shot down, by Oberleutnant Petrich, I’ve got a photograph of him, so [pause] from being, being shot down, I was picked up in Belgium by the Belgian Resistance. I’d come down right in the far south east corner of Belgium, very nearly into Luxembourg, and I landed in the dark. It was, to be shot down was about the most horrifying experience I ever had, or likely to have and that’s quite terrifying, sitting there minding your own business and suddenly you’re surrounded by tracer bullets and things coming whizzing past you. In fact that attack killed three of the crew, they missed me and fortunately they missed the pilot and the bomb aimer escaped and the navigator escaped, and we all managed to bale out. Then, as I say, I was picked up by the Belgian Resistance and after five, five weeks of being taken from house to house, village to village, town to town, into France and finished up in a place called Fismes, F I S M E S, Fismes, near Reims, Reims, Reims. And I’d then met another Air Force chap, a New Zealand pilot, he’d been shot down, well he crashed, he crash landed and so the two of us finished up the last week or two in France and then the RAF sent a Lysander aircraft which landed just outside this town of Fismes and picked up myself and this sergeant pilot, New Zealand pilot, and a Belgian agent. This was a night time job, we were escorted up to a lonely field, torches were placed out to make up a flare path. The Lysander came in and landed over a haystack, which was rather unfortunate, because the field that it was coming in had been ploughed up, but where the haystack was, they’d left that strip. Fortunately the pilot managed to do a reasonable landing, and the pilot was Group Captain Verity and he’s written a book on this, these adventures, called “We Landed By Moonlight”. His name: Hugh Verity. I’ve got a copy. So we were picked up there and made a decent take off, came back to England in broad moonlight. Fortunately I don’t think the Germans were interested in one little plane, so we weren’t molested all the way back and we landed at Tangmere, which is near Chichester, and went into an RAF house, on the airfield, and the next day we were taken up to Air Ministry to explain where we’d been [chuckle] and kitted out again, rekitted out. So, back to normal again. But I went back, had some leave - month’s leave. I was a bit annoyed that my New Zealand colleague, he got six weeks and I only got four weeks, and he couldn’t even go home, to New Zealand. And after that I was posted as an instructor in radio, Morse code and also the Browning gun ‘cause I was an air gunner as well. And I served, I was sent down here to Southampton, to the University Air Squadron and I was there until I was demobbed which was a couple of years. Nice job that, very nice job that was. So back home and I didn’t want to go back into factory work – it was hard work, not very well paid, no pensions or anything like that - so I studied and got a commercial wireless operator’s qualifications and with that I got a job with a local firm here in the Channel Islands, Channel Islands Airways, and as a wireless operator, radio officers we were called now, and I did that job for a couple of years to and fro the Channel Islands and then eventually I was posted up to first Northolt, and then Heathrow and transferring from de Havilland Rapides, which were old fashioned two, bi-planes, bi-plane, and went on to um, Vikings, Vickers Vikings, and then - Viscounts - and I did, I think it was thirteen years, and did most of that on the Vikings, er Viscounts, but then they made the radio officers redundant, technology advanced [interference] and they didn’t need a wireless operator and so I was made redundant when I was forty, but that took me up to finding another job, which I managed to do as a technician with IBM at Hursley, and I stayed there till I was retired at sixty, and from there went, with my wife, to live in Chandlers Ford, how many years, er, well, until I was, until I was -
[Other]: Ninety.
FG: Yes, until I was ninety and then we both, my wife and I, both came to Sunrise Care Home and my wife was only here for a few months and she passed away so left me here on my own ever since. That’s nearly four years ago. I think that brings up right up to today.
PL: Well Fred, [Clear throat] that’s a wonderful story. Can I take you back to when you were in Bomber Command and ask you to describe your escape? You’ve talked a little bit about being shot down, which was very interesting, but can you tell us about, you know, once you’d landed and this extraordinary escape that you had, in a little more detail?
FG: Yes. Okay. I remember the horrifying moment when these bullets and shells came through the Lancaster, absolutely terrifying. And you think, I thought to myself it’s our turn, because you knew all the time all the raids were going on, quite a lot of aircraft shot down. Lancasters, quite a lot of those went and this feeling suddenly, when it happens to you, you think my turn, it’s our turn. Anyway, the Lancaster caught fire. It was my job to go back to a position in the fuselage on the floor of the aeroplane, where there was a handle which you could pull which released a big bomb, we had a four thousand pound bomb, that released it, in case the bomb aimer either wasn’t able to, or his equipment was damaged, so he couldn’t drop it from his position so it was my job to dash back and pull this handle and the bomb went down. By then the Lancaster was so well alight I thought well I’m not going back to my seat, I’m getting out. In fact the mid upper gunner was getting down from his turret so I thought oh well, the captain’s probably told us to abandon ship, so I went back to the rear door, which was my escape hatch, escape exit, and I, we’d never done a parachute drops as practice, but we’d been told just what to do, especially in a Lancaster where the tailplane is right up alongside the door and if you didn’t do it properly, it would hit you as you went out. So all these, this training, these lessons, came, came sharply to mind and I managed to get the door open, kneel on the, kneel on the door sill, head down, I’d already clucked my parachute on to the harness, put my arm across the parachute, not my hand on the rip cord. Now some people lost their lives by pulling the ripcord too soon and sometimes in [emphasis] the aircraft, that dead loss, so I thought no, you’ve got to be careful, put my arm across the parachute to cover the handle so that I wouldn’t pull it too soon, so I put my head down to miss the tailplane. When I think about it, I think I did quite well there, I was with it all the time, sharp, sharply thinking what I’d gotta do, so I went out head first, did a couple of somersaults, let the Lancaster get clear, pulled the ripcord, big jolt [emphasis], then it was all peaceful. Lovely, a lovely calm night, and a little bit of moonlight I seem to remember. Anyway, the starlit sky above, but looking down, trying to see the ground, was absolutely black. You can’t see a thing on the ground at night. And I was trying to see where I was gonna land, looking down, focussing several thousand feet, couldn’t see a thing, absolutely black and wallop, hit the ground! Parachute came gently down over me and got myself sorted out and I was just a few feet away from an electric pylon. [Laugh] So nothing to do then, but I rolled myself up in the parachute until it got light. And we had an escape pack, so I opened that. I had some Horlicks tablets and some tubes of cream and few other useful things: a compass and some maps, which were printed onto silk, like handkerchiefs. I sorted all that out and I was just going to make my mind up to move, there was a little track alongside where I‘d dropped and along this track came a chap leading a horse and cart, and I thought oh, well, I didn’t know whether I was in Belgium, Luxembourg France or Germany, they all come down there and very close together, so I stood up and I took a handkerchief out to wave, as a surrender [laugh] and I think this chap leading the donk, leading the horse. thought I was going for a gun and he dived under his cart! [Laugh] Anyway, when he saw I was harmless, he came out and shook my hand, ‘Comarade’. I thought is that French, German, comarade, sounds could be either, play safe. So he pointed back to where he come from and said ‘Comarades, Comarades’. I gave him a handshake and I set off in the direction he pointed. I had bare feet. When the parachute opened, the jolt takes your flying boots off and the socks come with them ‘cause it was fur lined so I was in bare feet [chuckle] so I managed to stagger down in bare feet, in the direction this chap had pointed, and I went down, I remember I had to go under a railway bridge and I came, quite quickly, came to a road with a signpost on it which said Rulles, R U double L E S, so I thought well, I don’t know where Rulles is, never heard of it, but this is probably where I’ll go so I got onto this little roadway and I saw some cottages about a hundred, two hundred yards away, so I set out, I thought well I’ve got to get some footwear before I do anything else, whether I can steal some or be given some, I don’t know, I didn’t know what really was going to happen at that moment, and then I heard a lorry engine coming down the road and I thought there’s only Germans got motor vehicles here: they’re Germans. And I’d just got to the first cottage and I thought I’d better get out of sight so I opened the door, fortunately it wasn’t locked, I just opened the door, stepped inside and closed the door behind me and looked out the window at the side of the door, and the truck went past, open truck with a covered, canvas covered top, but the back was open: German soldiers sitting in there, with their rifles! I though ah, they’ve missed me – only just! So I turned to see where I was and there was an elderly lady in the room, all in black I remember, and she burst into tears and I never knew, then or now, whether it was due to fright or sympathy, bit of both perhaps, very startled, must have startled her for that to happen. Anyway a chap came in from a room at the back, he shook hands with me, he realised who I was, and gave me a black raincoat and some boots, socks and boots! Thought doing very well here and told me to follow him, and I went with him and across the road and I remember, over a little bridge I think it was, to another house, and took me in there and several people gathered – I was an object of curiosity - and I said where am I in English, but nobody could understand me, and I couldn’t understand them very well, but eventually one chap said, ‘Ici Belgique’ – I was able to translate that, Belgium, that’s good. [cough] Am I going on too long?
PL: No, not at all, it’s fascinating. Keep going.
FG: So. Can we switch off a moment?
PL: Just pausing for a moment. Recommencing.
FG: I was now taken to another house where several people had gathered, and one chap could speak a little English, and eventually they found some civilian clothes. [Coughing] So I changed into these civilian clothes and I was then taken by bicycle and escorted by a young, another young cyclist to the next village, which was about two miles away, and when we got there I was taken to a priest’s house [background music] and he took me in and er, I was given a room, and I was pretty tired, this was, I’d had no sleep all night, and he took me up to a room, little room, with a very soft bed, and I went out like a light. I don’t know how long I was asleep, some time I think, and when, later on, when I was awakened, taken down to his study, he and his housekeeper were there and they had a radio which they had to, they could listen to English radio but they mustn’t let Germans hear them, so very quietly put the radio on and put the English news on, BBC, from where I learned that seven RAF bombers were missing that night. That was six plus me. So they gave me some food and so called coffee which I was told afterwards it’s made partly of acorns, it was, I found it was drinkable, and black bread. That sounded nasty but I’m not fussy, food has never been a problem, I don’t turn anything down, so I was very pleased to get some food and I was taken to another house where the lady was in the kitchen, and I was taken into the kitchen and she had a huge [emphasis] plum pie and she cut me a big slice of plum pie and that was rather nice! From there I did this bicycle trip to the next village and I was taken into a room and shown to a bedroom. And I, although it was daylight it must have been then about ten o’clock in the morning, I was absolutely whacked, tired, and they showed me into this bedroom, so I got undressed and I got into bed, and I remember nice, soft bed, and just about to, within seconds to go to sleep and a chap burst in and he said, ‘you are in the house of a collaborator, you’ll have to get out, come with me!’ So having just trying to go to sleep I had to get out of bed quickly, dress quickly and follow him out the back of the house and across into some pretty wild countryside in fact we walked across what must have been a First World War battlefield, it was all hillocks and undulating ground and my ankles I remember playing me up a bit. Anyway we plodded on until we came to this next village, that’s [emphasis] where I was taken in by the priest and I stayed there till the next evening and he said ‘oh, you’ve got to go on now.’ By the way, while I was in the priest’s house, I was sitting there with him, in his study, looking out the window, and two gendarmes came up the path, oh, what do we do now? Anyway, they came in shook my hand and Comarade, Comarade! They didn’t speak English, but very pleasant. I remember their names, and er [pause]. So later on, I was given this room and went to bed because I was needing sleep. And then when I got up later on, more food, and then the priest said oh, ‘you’ll have to carry on, go on from here, you come with me’ and off, we left his house and it was raining and I’d got, I was still in, I’d got these civilian clothes, but no, nothing to keep the rain out, I think somebody had taken this raincoat away from me, wanted it themselves I expect, so he put his cassock round me, and somebody had given me a little black beret, so I had this black beret and this cassock right down to my ankles, absolutely invisible in the night, good thing perhaps. So we set off from his house, getting dark, in fact it was quite dark when we came to the edge of some woods and the priest gave a whistle, which was answered by another whistle and a chap came forward and he was going to be my guide, and he had a pistol, he gave me one, showed me how to take the safety catch off, ‘put that in your pocket’ he said. So the priest left me with him and we set off through these woods, and we got a little way in, in darkness, and he said we must be a bit quiet, there’s a German encampment here nearby and we were just going past like a Nissen hut, a military hut, when the door burst open and a couple of German soldiers came out with their rifles and my colleague pushed me into the ditch and came in with me, and we lay still in the ditch and these two Germans came out and got on bicycles, and rode past us about as far as my daughter is to you, and of course they’d come out from a lighted room so they were a bit, not very, couldn’t see very well in the dark, but we could see very well, we’d been out in the dark for some time, but it was a little bit scary because my companion pulls his pistol out and trains it on the Germans, as they went past. [Motor noise]
PL: [Sharp intake of breath]
FG: I thought oh, don’t want a gun battle here, we’re not going to win against rifles. Anyway the Germans went away and we stayed put for a little while and went on with our journey to the next village where he introduced me to another family and things went more or less satisfactorily from there and I was there for a couple of nights, in fact I stayed there with this chap who’d rescued me, and then he disappeared and I had another guide, a lady this time and [motor noise] she took me, escorted, by bicycle, we both had bicycles, and we went through woodland on our bikes, a little track through the woods, and we came to another village where I was taken into the house of the Burgomaster, and I was sheltered in there and when it became evening I was taken down the road a little way to another house which was, I think a relative’s house, [motor noise] where I was given a bed for the night. The next day the Burgomaster’s sister, turned out to be, nice lady, and she again escorted me on the bike, quite a long way through woods, and we came out at a little town in Belgium called Bouillon. B O U I double L O N, Bouillon. I think it’s the place where the soup comes from. I went up a little track down, between the woods, to a little detached house situated nicely, quiet position, alongside a river, and it was a tobacco farm and my lady companion took me into this house, introduced me to the people there, they took me over and found me a room on the top floor, I remember it, and because it was a tobacco farm, this room I was given was lined with little cupboards and I was quite curious to know what was in these cupboards and they were packed full of cigars, hand made cigars, from the tobacco farm, but I didn’t try one because I’d tried the cigarettes and they were ghastly enough; I smoked then. And I was there for a fortnight and it was quite pleasant, out of the way, no traffic, no roads nearby, and alongside the river, and I went for a walk alongside the river, people across the river walking about on the path, but quite a wide river, River Semois, and so I stayed there for a fortnight and then one day a taxi turned up, and he just managed to get down this little track, to the house, and beckoned me, come with me, so I said goodbye to these people, got in the car and he took me into the village, into the town, at Bouillon, took me in to a hotel, dropped me off at a hotel, in fact once he’d dropped me off he shot off like mad, get rid of me, got rid of me quickly. I went into the hotel, into a room, there were several people, they were all Resistance people and one of them there was Flight Sergeant Herbert Pond of the Royal New Zealand airline, Air Force, so that was rather nice, I was able to speak fluently to somebody and have a little chat, and he said ‘they’re suspicious of me, they think I’m a German plant, can you help sort this out?’ So at least one of these Belgians or Frenchmen, I think one was a French Canadian, and he said ‘can you vouch for him?’ So I said ‘got any experiences you can remember?’ And he said ‘I remember I was on one station and there were some Australian crews’ - and they were always getting up to trouble -and they’d hijacked some chickens, live chickens, taken them up to their room in the barracks and thrown them out across onto the parade ground at night, you know, evening time, night time, and they had bets on which chicken could get furthest along, that’s Australians for you, so he said ‘I remember that!’ He said ‘I saw that!’ So I said to these Belgians, or French people, he’s, ‘no German knows what he saw that night so he’s a genuine.’ And he said ‘I think you may have saved my life there’ he said, ‘they held a gun against my head!’ [Laugh] I still get Christmas cards from him. New Zealand. So from there the taxi driver turned up again and took us across the border into France. In fact, we [emphasis] walked across the border and he took his taxi round through the official entrance and picked us up the other side, at a pub I remember, haha, and from there we were taken to a little town. Oh, we were taken first of all to, to this little local town, and we did a train, we were given a train ticket, some train tickets, yeah, this helper was a French Canadian, that’s right, he took us over there, and of course he could speak English and French, and bought us some rail tickets and we sat on the station, outside the station, while he went and got these rail tickets and Herbert Pond, the New Zealander, myself sat on opposite sides of a table, long table, and he brought us, he went to buy us some beer and while he was gone to get this beer from a kiosk, some bloomin’ German soldiers came down, propped their guns up against the table and sat down next to us, [chuckle] so we weren’t able to speak after that. But then he came back with the tickets and just indicated us, come with me, didn’t say anything, off we went, followed him onto the platform, he said ‘they’re your tickets, when you get to Reims’, is it Reims? Yes, Reims, he said ‘you’ll be met outside the station, at the station exit, by a lady dressed all in black and she’ll be wearing a red flower.’ So the train came in and we separated, myself and Herbert Pond, he said separate on the train, so Herbert went off on his own and I watched where the door was, went across the platform, and in most of the carriages there was a notice up: ‘Reserve Pour Les Troops d’Occupation’. I could read that, even though I didn’t know French, I could read that. Anyway, I could see that somebody was, a civilian, was standing in the corridor and I thought well if he can stand there, so can I, so I went to get on the train but a porter shouted at me and pointed at this notice. I ignored him, I got on the train and went and stood in the corridor and then, from nowhere, goodness knows where, a load of German officers came in and came aboard the train and came past me, the reserved coaches for them, so they took their places in the carriages and one even said excuse me in French, ‘excusez moi’, as he squeezed past me. I thought you don’t know I’m wearing an RAF vest! [Chuckle] Anyway, I stood in the corridor, quite a long journey from this place to Reims, yes, from Bouillon to Reims, and when we got there, got off the train and Bert Pond was, he got off as well, and there was the lady waiting for us, oh skulduggery, I thought this is, this is kids’ comic stuff that we’re doing, this, and followed her at a distance and she led us to a flat where we were given some refreshments and then, after a little while, we were taken to another place, where we stayed I think it was two nights, and that was actually in Reims. By now, we’d got to know this French Canadian and him telling us what was going to happen, he hoped. He said we’ve got to do another train trip so when the time came, two days later I think it was, and we went and got on this particular train and it was a suburban train, wooden seats, bit backward, you know, bit elementary. Anyway we got on the train and I remember we sat together, with our guide, and on the opposite row of seats, facing, were several French women and it looked as though they’d been shopping, they’d all got shopping bags and stuff. So again we couldn’t talk, but it wasn’t too far to go and when we got off we were taken to, er, now where were we taken to, another house in this village called Thiem, welcomed there by the family, I was trying to remember their names, I can remember their names given time. We were looked after well there and I remember lots of white wine was provided for us, bottles of white wine, all the time. So Herbert and myself, we settled in there for a couple of days and I remember being taken from the house into the yard at the side, there was a yard, with doors opening into big open spaces, I think they’d been stables or something, and in one was a Flying Flea. Did you ever come across or heard of Flying Fleas? [Cough] Excuse me. [Pause] Well the Flying Flea was a little home made aeroplane, that could, a real miniature aeroplane, very tiny, stubby little stubby wings and little stubby tail and it would only carry the pilot and I’d seen these flying at Portsmouth when I was a lad and they were highly dangerous of course! And I remember that these people had got one of these strung up on a wall, and the guide said ‘I think these people like to think they’re gonna fly to England in that but they’ll be lucky!’ But I do remember that Flying Flea. So we were looked after there for a couple of days and then we were told that the RAF was hoping to send a plane in to pick us up. Oh gosh, possible, and they said it may be any evening, any night, depending on the weather and other circumstances, so we just had to sit around and wait but after two or three days this French Canadian, he’s still looking after us, he said ‘the plane’s probably coming in tonight’ he said, we’ll set off at a certain time, in good time. So a party of us set off, there were about four or five Belgians, and I remember one of them was carrying a rope, in case the aircraft got bogged down, which had happened, in the past. So off we went following in a single line, no talking, had to keep quiet, until we came up to this field, level field, bit of consternation because it had been ploughed! But there was a strip left, strip of grass, with a haystack at the end, which was a bit tricky, and I being the signaller, I was told to give the signal, think it was the letter R I had to flash. And we had to, well we didn’t have to wait. The aircraft had already arrived and was circling round, and we had to run the last few hundred yards, I remember through mud, and we got there, put the torches out quickly, gave him the signal to land, signal came back. How he found that field, in the middle of France, in the dark, well he wrote a book about all this, as I say, I’ve got a copy. So we set up torches as flare path, gave him the okay signal, came in and landed, over this little haystack – marvellous pilot. Came to the end, turned round, came back to where we were waiting and I’d been instructed to take some parcels off the back seat. There was a little ladder fixed to the aircraft on the outside, I had to climb up two or three steps of the ladder, take these parcels out, hand down to the party below, and he kept his engine running of course and I thought oh, you know, Germans are going to come rushing out from all angles! But of course it was a very lonely spot, and I think he made a record afterwards, he was only on the ground for two minutes and myself and the New Zealander and the Belgian agent all piled in to a single seat at the back. It had one seat, I never got the use of it, I think I sat on the floor, no parachutes of course, or anything like that, and off we went, fingers crossed, and we came across in lovely, lovely clear weather, few searchlights about, but of course it was over France, not over Germany and I don’t think anybody was interested, Germans weren’t bothered about one little aeroplane. So we ploughed a nice trip back and landed at Tangmere near Chichester and went and thanked the pilot for coming to pick us up, Hugh Verity, yes, got his book up there. And we were taken into a, this RAF house and given a bed, the night, and the next day we were taken up to London, to Air Ministry Headquarters, go in there to be interviewed, and rekitted, new uniform, and sent home for a month, month’s holiday, so that was that.
PL: Can you remember what happened during the interview? Can you remember what happened during the interview? Did they, what did they want to know from you?
FG: Well, they wanted to know which towns and villages I’d been to and the names of the people, so I said ‘well I’m not too happy about giving names’, but as it was I think a Wing Commander or somebody senior, RAF man interviewing me, in fact I think there were two or three officers there, and so I had to cough up, should be all right, unless the Germans win the war! [chuckle] And so I was able to tell them, gave them all the details, seemed to be interested and then said ‘off you go for a month’s leave.’
PL: What an extraordinary story! How old were you when this happened, Fred?
FG: Twenty.
PL: And can you remember, I’m just curious, I mean how did you feel about all of this. I mean were you frightened, were you excited, were you? How did you feel?
FG: I was, when the bullets came through the Lancaster I was terrified! I wasn’t too bothered about baling out, and the funny thing was, I was looking down to see where I was gonna land, couldn’t see anything on the, it was all black, but I wasn’t, I wasn’t particularly scared, I can honestly say I wasn’t particularly scared, I was just getting on with it, as you can say.
PL: And during your escape, this extraordinary escape where, you know, every so often you would come in close contact with the Germans, what about then, did you sort of?
FG: No I just held me breath a bit.
PL: Held your breath a bit.
EG: Kept me fingers crossed. No, I wasn’t scared, no. Because at the back of my mind I thought well, if I’m exposed enough to give myself up, they’re not going to stand there and shoot me in cold blood, surely. I don’t think they would have done, and I’d have finished up as a POW, prisoner of war. But these people who were helping myself and Bert Pond, they were risking their lives, in a concentration camp, whereas we would have just been put in a prisoner of war camp. So they were the ones, they were the heroes, they really were.
PL: And did you find out what happened to them?
FG: Yes, um, [sniff] with my wife, we went back to Belgium, and France, and went round to see these all these people and they were absolutely delighted to see us, and see me.
PL: How old were you then? When did you go back?
FG: After the war, when was it, 1947? ‘46 ’47, yes, in fact, we were invited to go back any time and we actually had two or three holidays over there and I took the car over a couple of times. There was one, there was one family who sheltered me for a fortnight, well there were two families who sheltered me for a fortnight each. one family were the tobacco growers and the other family was a chap who spoke perfect English, he’d lived in England previously for several years, and he was an insurance man and a very nice, a very nice character [engine noise], I admired him very much and he was very pleasant, really nice man, and his wife was a very nice, very nice looking woman, and they had a daughter, same age as me, and they sheltered me for two weeks and they’d got some English books, which was very nice, Dickens books, which I was able to sit and read, and they put me up in a little room in the top of the house, in the attic, and I could go down and have breakfast with them and then they said right, ‘the housekeeper’s coming in to clean and you’ll have to go back and hide and keep quiet’, which I did, and she came in several times while I was there, apparently, and she never heard a thing. And she was ever so surprised after the war, when they told her that they’d got a British, a British airman had been hiding up in the loft. They never told her of course, daren’t trust anybody.
[Other]: About your hat.
FG: Oh, yes.
[Other]: Just tell the story of the hat. Tell the story of the hat.
FG: Oh yes, my wife and I were out in Belgium one day, visiting the people in this town, very nice little town called Floranville, where I was looked after for a fortnight in this very nice house and there was an article printed in the local paper giving my name and details, and it was read by a Belgian policeman, and he rang up our host, hostess, and said I know, I’ve got the cap belonging to this airman, could you pop over and get it? And he said er, [pause], ‘I’ve got your cap’, he said ‘I picked it up near where the bomber crashed’, he said, ‘and your name and number and rank is inside’ he said ‘and when I saw your name in the local paper’, he said ‘I realised that was you’, so he rang my hostess and told her, would we go and see him and if we did he would present me with my cap. Which he did.
PL: How wonderful! That must have been an emotional moment for you.
FG: Yeah. It was all quite an adventure. Yes, we went back to Belgium, my wife and I, several times, [cough] looked after us, ever so happy to see us and we had one of the couples back to stay with us for I think a week or ten days, and we were living up in Greenford at the time, but they came over and stayed with us. I thought it’s the least I could do, but I’m afraid most, if not all [emphasis], of the people I knew out there have all died ‘cause I had contacts with several of them for many years, several years, Christmas cards to several people, France as well. I didn’t feel I wanted to give people up like that, give them up casually, when they’d done what they’d done for me. So I kept in touch.
PL: Did they all survive the war? Did everybody that helped you, did they all survive the war?
FG: Um, a chap I met at one house, who’d taken my photograph for my passport, identity card, he was very careless the way he talked, spoke, and he’s partly, I was told, it was his own fault, he was picked up by the Gestapo and he was sent to a camp somewhere, but he died of typhoid and I was told afterwards it wasn’t due to what he did for you, it was because he had so much to say [emphasis] to everybody, let himself down, so he said that was just too bad. One of the ladies, she had a, she was discovered as helping, she was in the, what the Belgians called, the Secret Army, and she was sort of a member of these people and she’d been, I don’t know whether she was betrayed by somebody but the Germans came to pick her up, and in some way, she got up on to the roof of the house she was in and she was standing up by the chimney stack and one of the German soldiers shot her, in the leg. And when, they took her prisoner then of course, and she went to a concentration camp but they fixed her leg and when mum and I went over one time, she showed us this nasty scar in her leg where this bullet had gone in, but otherwise, the man who’d organised the flight out of France, organised the escape line, Belgian, and he was betrayed, and he was tortured and I learnt afterwards he threw himself out of an upstairs window to avoid this torturing, and killed himself. But as I was told, not particularly due to you, I’d have felt a little bit awkward, bit shocked really, didn’t want to think I was going to cause other people trouble like that, but apparently he was betrayed, by a so called friend. [Sniff] [Pause] Trying to think if there’s anything as a follow up.
PL: Going back to Bomber Command, what are your feelings about how Bomber Command has been treated over the years?
FG: I don’t know how to think about it to be honest. I don’t try to think about that. It was all done at the time, it was thought it was necessary and you know at the time, everybody’s saying, oh you know, course we were dropping bombs on civilians as well as on industry: ‘oh never mind, kill a few of them off’, that was the attitude, didn’t think much of it otherwise, and I must admit when I looked out at Hamburg burning I thought it must be terrible down there and it was. We learned after the war how terrible those raids were for the Germans. Six hundred bombers raided Hamburg three nights running. Then I went back as a civilian, because British Airways did a run, London to Hamburg, and I did those. [Laugh] Yes. Long time ago, it’s all in there and I’ve got a good memory.
PL: You have a fantastic memory. It’s been the most extraordinary experience, listening to your story, and is there anything else at all that you would like to mention or talk about as part of your interview?
FG: Well I’d like to give credit and thanks to all the people that really helped me, especially the Belgians and French, otherwise, I think that wraps up the war story.
PL: Well Fred, I’d just like to thank you again.
FG: That’s all right.
PL: For sharing your story.
FG: Pam isn’t it?
PL: It is.
FG: Do you mind if I call you Pam?
PL: Absolutely! It’s been just fascinating and it’s just I mean it’s like the most extraordinary story really of survival and of huge, huge value to the Digital Archive, so thank you very much indeed.
FG: You’re welcome. I quite enjoy talking about it still.
PL: Lovely.
FG: Some people who’ve had experiences like that don’t want to talk about it. Whether or not it’s because they can’t talk about it, haven’t got a very good vocabulary, and I’m not too bad at that am I?
PL: Very good.
FG: I don’t know what sort of accent I’ve got because it’s a mixture, but it’s northern Oxfordshire and it’s a little bit sort of rural, but apart from that have to live with it.
PL: It’s a wonderful accent, Fred Gardiner, thank you very much indeed.
FG: You’re welcome, Pam.
PL: So sorry, we’re restarting.
FG: You switched off.
PL: I’ve just started it again, so that we can hear about your work with the charter company. And you were flying?
FG: Yes, Halifax freighters. And I’ve written an account of my four, three or four months with them. I’ve got it written down the if you’d like to borrow it and read it at any time. That was interesting, very interesting, and quite dangerous.
PL: So that was after the war?
FG: Yes, immediately after the war.
PL: So what made it dangerous Fred?
FG: The way the aircraft were operated. [Throat clear] [Pause] Yes, it was a bit dangerous, in fact one of the aircraft had to ditch in the sea. They were coming back from Italy with a load of fruit, they got low on fuel or something, and I think they’d got a pretty poor wireless operator, and they had to ditch. Because on one trip I had to send a distress call because we were running out of fuel, in bad weather, over Norway, that was, that was a bit dodgy, I could see us ditching. [Cough] The aircraft was full of stockings, boxes of stockings, made in Britain, exported to Norway. And when we got to Norway there was low cloud, very low cloud, and Oslo is situated in some, between some nasty hills, not, I don’t know whether you’d say mountains, but pretty steep hills, and I flew with a very good pilot, he was really super, and it was my job, as the wireless operator, to get him bearings, radio bearings, that he could follow in to land, and the idea was I got lots of bearings from the ground station as fast as I could, one after another so that he could keep lined to the runway and come down until he could see it and you’d know if you were on the right course that there weren’t any high hills in the way, so that was satisfactory, but the weather was so bad that he overshot twice because he couldn’t quite make it. Up and round again, same procedure again, I think on the third attempt, third trip he managed to touch down. No, wait a minute, no, that wasn’t, that’s not true, on the third trip he didn’t make it and he said ‘I’m going to have to divert somewhere’ and - I don’t know why had a slip of memory there - so we set off going south from Oslo and we were getting low on fuel, and it was low cloud, everywhere, so I said ‘shall I send a distress call?’ ‘Yes’, he said, ‘you might as well.’ I sent a distress call and it was answered by a station, all in Morse code of course, this station’s callsign was S E A, I remember, Sea, S E A, and I didn’t know where SEA was so I had to ask the operator on the ground where are you, who are you? And they sent me a stream of stuff back and it proved to be a Gothenburg airfield, so we headed for that and I continued to get these bearings and give them up to the captain and he carried on flying towards them until in the end we got down quite low over the sea and Gothenburg people fired up some search rockets and a searchlight and Very cartridge lights because the weather was still very bad, and being over the sea we weren’t likely to hit any hills and when we got very close to Gothenburg and the pilot could see where he, just see where he was, he did a circuit round and he lost sight of it in the circuit, that was how bad it was, so he had to do that sort of approach again, using the radio. Anyway, after a couple of runs at it, he touched down, fortunately the runway was right on the edge of the coast and he flew over a sandy beach, onto the runway which we were able to do, and when we came to the end of the runway and sorted ourselves out and they got some people up to fill up the tanks and they came back and they said your tanks are more or less empty! I think I saved that, I think I saved that Halifax that day.
PL: Well, to have survived the war and everything that you went through then, you know, to have been lost in that way would have been just so terrible, wouldn’t it.
FG: Yes. Yes, I had a quite interesting time in flying. One or two little hiccups in BA, BEA actually, with engine trouble, engines failed two or three times I was on, engine failure. Very good pilots all the time, got us down on single engine. [Pause]
PL: Are you happy for us to end there?
FG: Happy?
PL: For us to end there?
FG: Yes.
PL: There’s nothing else you want to say? Is there anything else that you would like to say?
FG: Just have a quick think. [Pause] I don’t know if you like to, I’ve got a copy of my time with that charter company and I think it makes an interesting story, all in all, I don’t know if you’d like to read it?
PL: I’d love to read it, let’s end there then. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AGardinerEF170809, PGardinerEF1701
Title
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Interview with Ernest Frederick Gardiner
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:25:04 audio recording
Creator
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Pam Locker
Date
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2017-03-01
Description
An account of the resource
Fred Gardiner grew up in Oxfordshire and worked in a furniture factory before volunteering for the Royal Air Force. He flew five operations as a wireless operator / air gunner from RAF Syerston before his aircraft was shot down. He gives a detailed account of having to bale out of his Lancaster at night, of meeting civilians who sheltered him in various locations whilst he and others avoided German soldiers prior to their rescue. After the war, he and his wife returned to thank those who had helped him escape and remained in touch with many of those who he came across.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
New Zealand
Norway
Sweden
England--Nottinghamshire
France--Reims
Germany--Mannheim
Norway--Oslo
Sweden--Göteborg
Temporal Coverage
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1941
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Carolyn Emery
aircrew
bale out
crewing up
Defiant
evading
Halifax
Lancaster
Lysander
Manchester
Operational Training Unit
RAF Syerston
Resistance
shot down
Special Operations Executive
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/878/11118/AHolmesEA160129.2.mp3
6370a9b710f91955ac01de568b0cbea5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Holmes, Ernest
Ernest A Holmes
E A Holmes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ernest Holmes (1921 - 2021, 1058581, 157389 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 35 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Holmes, EA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: Testing one two three. I’m here in Perth to interview Ernest Holmes, ex Pathfinder pilot, what we’ll do Ernest is just, I’ll get you just to tell me your name, what you did in the RAF in your own words, just try and tell your story as best you can
EH: What story is it you want?
BB: When did you join the RAF and just not in great detail but just talk it through.
EH: I am Ernest Holmes and at the age of nineteen I volunteered for service in the RAF to train as a pilot and on the 10th of June 1940 I then left home which was on my mother’s birthday to go down to Padgate. From there I eventually did training in Blackpool, the square bashing, then I was posted to Hooten Park where I was working in operations room. Then I eventually got interviewed and accepted for training as a pilot. I went to Desford where I did the, sorry, I went
BB: That’s ok.
EH: Squire’s gate I think it was to ITW, from there I went to Desford to do the initial training on Tiger Moths after thirty hours accomplishing, then went to Canada for further advanced flying on twin engine aircraft, I went there on a [unclear] factory that was called Swen Fine and that was torpedoed in 1943
BB: God!
EH: But I went there on a I think there is a photograph
BB: We will have a look at those later. Thank you.
EH: I don’t know where I then
US: Can I just interrupt, do you take sugar?
BB: I take sweeteners.
US: Perfect. Right.
BB: Thank you very much. So, you went to Canada.
EH: Went to Canada. And then returned to the UK after six months in Canada
BB: You got your wings in Canada.
EH: Got my wings in Canada [unclear] sergeant. Then I went to Abindgon on Whitleys
BB: That was number 10 OTU.
EH: Yes. There I was assessed as exceptional and proof is in my logbook [laughs] and from there I went to train on the Halifaxes and from there I went to 76 Squadron
BB: So, that was the Halifax XCU.
EH: Yes.
BB: Where was that? Somewhere in Yorkshire?
EH: Outside Oxford.
BB: Outside Oxford, ok. Remember that. And then from there you went onto the squadron which was 76.
EH: 76 Squadron.
BB: So you crewed up at the OTU.
EH: We crewed up there and from 76 Squadron I had asked to go onto the Pathfinders so we eventually moved, I can’t recall the actual dates but the logbook [unclear]
BB: Right. Was that the whole crew or just you? Sometimes the whole crew would [unclear]
EH: The whole crew, the whole crew went.
BB: Ok. Now was that a end of tour discussion well chaps what we do [unclear] or do we go onto Pathfinders?
EH: No, it was just a posting.
BB: Oh, you’re posted?
EH: But I had already asked.
BB: [unclear] Oh, you requested it. Ok. That’s good.
EH: And we went.
BB: [unclear]
EH: And then we had to do the training on the Pathfinders and then from there I was moved to 35 Squadron. [unclear]
BB: [unclear]
EH: So we’d already completed about twelve operations or so on 76 Squadron, then we started the training with
BB: Pathfinders.
EH: Yes, the operations with 35 Squadron.
BB: And I suppose that was pretty intensive, all the instructing the markers and sky marking and ground marking and all that.
EH: Yes, it was just a job for us.
BB: Yes.
EH: But I still recall quite clearly the change of attitude of each person, we were all friends, we referred to each other by name, nick names, I was known as Shirley, short for Sherlock, for a long time I was Sherlock, and there was no Holmes came along, so differentiate I am Sher-ee.
BB: Ok, I got you, yes. Ah, ok.
EH: No. And times operations you had on the crews and on my last operation when I was shot down we had a mixed crew. I had two Canadian gunners, my navigator became station officer now deceased and he had DFC DFM and the engineer DFC DFM also deceased., they became chief engineer and also chief navigation instructor, so they came off my crew and I got Johnny Stewart, Derrick came with me but that night I had eight of a crew, not seven.
BB: yes, I counted that up on the [unclear].
EH: Pardon?
BB: Were you carrying an extra wireless op?
EH: The wireless operator wanted to learn how to use the radar
BB: Right.
EH: There was no special training so he came along. Training, been trained on operations and I had a second wireless operator
Bb:
EH: But I also had two gunners. The two Canadian gunners had previously had asked for me to finished their tours with me, they finished, the Canadian scheme was after thirty ops they went back home, they were no longer required to do anything or get involved in any activities in the war unless they chose so but they too wanted to go back home [unclear]
BB: So they did.
EH: They went back home. So I had two new gunners and also a new engineer, the engineer was on his first operation
BB: God!
EH: And I’m not quite certain if the gunner was. David has my logbook.
US: Yes, I got wartime and I’ve also got the flight plans.
EH: You have.
BB: That’s
EH: No. You’ll have to know. Ask the questions and I’ll give you a brief [unclear].
BB: Ok. From the information that I had already, from David, plus my own research material, I’ve sketched out here a tabular form, your career is by unwonded from the information I had.
EH: Yeah.
BB: You enlisted on the tenth of June 1940 as an AC2.
EH: That’s right.
BB: Service number 105851.
EH: Yes, 105851.
BB: And you were a UT pilot basically at that time.
EH: Yes.
BB: And then you went to ITW and then on to number 7 EFTS at Desford.
EH: That’s right.
BB: Where you learned to fly Tiger Moths and they had some Miles Magisters there as well.
EH: That’s right.
BB: And then you went to number 35 AFU North Battleford, Saskatchewan
EH: That’s right.
BB: Where you learned twin engine aircraft on the Airspeed Oxford.
EH: In the Oxford.
BB: In the Oxford. And you were made a sergeant at that stage.
EH: Yes, when you got your wings.
BB: Yes, that’s right. And then you went, came back to the UK, you went to number 10 OTU at Abington Whitley
EH: That’s right.
BB: And your station commander was group captain H M Massey, who happened to be later on in the same prison of war camp as you, as the senior RAF officer in Stalag Luft III.
EH: North compound, yes.
BB: Yes.
US: Did you know that, Dad?
EH: I did, no, I didn’t know it.
BB: He was senior British RAF officer, he was shot down and taken prisoner, I got it here, I can let you have all of this and then you went to HCU on Halifaxes and was promoted flight sergeant.
EH: I was a flight sergeant at Abingdon.
BB: At Abingdon, ok, so, ok, [unclear] and then you went on to the squadron and were commissioned pilot officer on the squadron shortly after you arrived, I think.
EH: it’s on 35 Squadron.
BB: Yes.
EH: Yes.
BB: Yes. And by the time you got to 76 you were already commissioned, you were promoted to pilot officer with the new service number 157389. And then you did your Pathfinders, you went missing on the 22nd of May in Holland on a raid to Dortmund
EH: That’s right.
BB: Shot down and evaded capture, fought with the French resistance for a while but you were betrayed by the Gestapo and taken to Stalag Luft III.
EH: Yes.
BB: Prisoner of war number 0288.
EH: I don’t know the number of prisoner of war.
BB: Here we are. And you were involved in the long march.
EH: Both two marches.
BB: Two marches. Ok. Your aircraft was MD762 code E for Edward.
EH: Can’t recall
BB: Yeah. And it crashed, obviously a night fighter got you and you had to get out of the aircraft and landed in a place near Middlebeers in North Bravent.
EH: Yes.
BB: At 0522 in the morning.
EH: Yep.
BB: And then obviously you made it on the 21st of May ’44 you became an acting flight lieutenant [unclear] gazette illustrated on the 10th of October 1945.
EH: I knew nothing about that till a year later.
BB: I got all this stuff for you. And then you were liberated at Lubeck and then you opted for a permanent commission and went on to do lots of other things, flying on Yorks and
EH: yes.
BB: All sorts of nice things and then you were at [unclear] in Kinloss for a while. I was a member of the RAF reserve for thirty three years, in the maritime world and spent a lot of time at Kinloss briefing and debriefing crews as an intelligence officer and then I went on to, after maritime I went on to fast jets, doing the same with fighter [unclear], I did that in both Gulf Wars and it is very interesting and If I hadn’t actually researching the RAF for years and years and years, I knew about the intelligence cycle and debriefing crews and that interest stood me in really good sted when I had stop the aircrew to deal with in their flying suits, and they just wanted to get to the bar and I wouldn’t le them go to the bar [unclear] they had been debriefed so it’s funny how life but that’s a fascinating story.
EH: That I was [unclear] again.
BB: So.
EH: Can I speak about?
BB: Of course you can. Yes.
EH: When we were shot down, there was no warning, no indication, there was no warning, interception, [unclear] just [mimics a noise] and I lost control of the aircraft, went into a dive, I had my feet on, trying to pull it back but one thing fortunately, I had the loose fissing harness, eventually I was on the [unclear] panel trying to pull the aircraft up, what I was doing of course pulling myself out of the seat, now I had already abandoned the walk southwest, I was somewhere getting near the coast and I choose south west but if I was near the coast walk around the German defences and I also broadcast on my radio so that crews would recognise my voice and this was so, whilst I was on the underground, now is this the part that you are interested in?
BB: yes, yes please, yes.
EH: They started and I landed and I started walking but there was a lot of cloud around, I had to stand and wait to wait till I could see the North Star decide which was North South East and West and I walking South West and I saw someone, this is out in the countryside, light a cigarette and I heard dogs barking so I walked away from that, the person lighting a cigarette a later found out was Derrick, we went away [unclear] because at the time that the second explosion took place where the engineer was in the hatch [unclear] under the escape hatch, Derrick was there, standing with his parachute clipped on, Donnie Stewart the navigator pulled the curtain back, touched me on the shoulder, which was the sign and I am still trying to point [unclear] and then there was a third bang, big explosion, I lost unconscious and I woke up hanging over the nose of the aircraft still strapped to my side with the loose harness fitting your arm and your arm [unclear] I pulled myself back and found my legs were trapped with the control column so I kicked them free, released my harness from the seat and then eventually released my leg and pushed myself off and then pulled my parachute and I just waited, I didn’t know where it was going to land and lot of mud, I don’t know if you [unclear] at that time, we could wear what we liked on our operations, I had an old style army trench coat but I used to use it as cover, the Canadians had leather jackets, leather coats, so some of us did dress up in the hopes that if you were shot down some camouflage, now whence I came across this farm and I knocked on the door, didn’t get an answer but there was a well, water well, I didn’t get an answer so so I opened this gate and the thing about the gate that struck me was a concrete bomb had been used as a pillar to the gate unknown to me the Germans had been using that farm area as a precious bombing range [laughs]
BB: Gosh! [unclear]
EH: So I continue walking and I hear dogs barking and I start walking through water think if there were dogs they would get my scent water would help, remember I am still I once shock I was fighting
BB: Sure but you, you know, it’s a big experience that kind
EH: And then I came to a wood and I started going through the wood, it’s amazing the noise you make at night time when you walk through and I heard dog was barking again, so I came out of the wood and I continued walking
BB: You still have your flying boots at this stage
EH: No, I never used my flying boots
BB: [unclear]
EH: Normal shoes.
BB: Ok, right.
EH: In fact the only gear I had was the roll neck clover on my blazer and my roll neck clover on my jacket and underwear I had my pyjama trousers on, that was all. And my shoes but in my socks I had a Bowie knife, I lost that and I know when I landed and [unclear] I was [unclear]
BB: You couldn’t find it
EH: And then I came to this [unclear] and was the only [unclear], I could hear noises and I thought it was a blacksmith that must have been, I heard this and I thought that’s a blacksmith I think I was thinking that’s the blacksmith and he will have a big handkerchief with a sandwich and I think I was going to steal that, however I came to this [unclear ] and I could see this church steeple and I thought I gotta find a place to hide, twelve hours earlier I could have just jumped across I couldn’t I was so worn out, so I waded across up the ankle deep, knee deep [unclear] to the other side to get rid of any dog scent now I saw walking up to this park, the corn was growing high now and then oh I hate this bank noise I heard and there came a girl, she must be seventeen, eighteen cycling, she was going to and she had a runny bicycle which had small wheels in the front with a flat tray and she had a milk and she was the one that was and when she passed she said, Guten Morgen, and I thought she spoke to me in English, and I said, you speak English? nein, so I said, RAF, Flieger, and she pointed for me to hide in the corn and she went off back to the farm and I’m hiding in the corn as she was quite high at the time and I heard all the voices come by and eventually I stood up and there was [unclear] the father, he was a little man and along with him was [unclear] and was Jan, the elder son, well, the elder son was probably be about thirteen, fourteen, that was Jan, and then there were three others with him, they were all students, one was Willy [unclear], he was hiding form the Germans because the students were over the age of sixteen were to go to work in the defences so all the students went into hiding and [unclear], he was actually studying medicine at the time and he was in hiding and then there was another [unclear], we called him the painter, he was an artist, we could pick him out in a million, he wore a [unclear] type hat, it was a huge hat and a cloak, he didn’t speak English and I took an dislike him because he spoke to the others who spoke English [unclear] and [unclear] and
BB: Willy
EH: Willy and they laughed and then they asked me, I said, what did he say? He said, he wants to know if you have a gun, no, have you got any cigarettes, don’t smoke. And then it was laughter when this related to the artist or painter, I took an dislike to that chappie because he had said, he hasn’t got a gun, he hasn’t got any cigarettes, he is no bloody good to us, let’s kill him.
BB: I could see you take to dislike him, yeah.
EH: I took an instant dislike to that chappie, I met him once or twice after that, but then he said that they were going to help me so they took me to the farm and there they had the old tin bath hanging on the wall, they had to untie my shoelaces and help me take my clothes off and when my clothes were off of course I’d been circumcised, no reference me to that, far my concern, from the RAF and they were trying to help, well, a few things happened, I would say, I mean, I would say they had a fireplace, a brick thing found underneath water in this and on the top of that was a lid and that’s where they used to put the milk [unclear] once it had been because it had been and taken away but they held in that for a couple of days and then I went in the pigsty and that and then he came up to me one day and this is up to six days that’s the farmer, he came up to me with a bottle, a small bottle of whiskey and sixty gold flake cigarettes 1944 didn’t have the money to buy it, any ideas?
BB: Black market.
EH: SOE.
BB: SOE, oh yes, of course. The escape alliance.
EH: And he was tied to the SOE and was the only way he could have got it but anyway I didn’t drink and I didn’t smoke so I told him he could have them. And then they walked me into they called it the orchard, there was and there were about six beds there, this is where the students [unclear]
BB: Right.
EH: They were hiding, came to sleep and during the daytime they disappeared, look the headmaster of the village school had a spare room and the headmaster go to the library to get the medical books for Luke that continued his study and but I only saw him at night time and at meal times so I’m on my own most of the time but then Naty I come across at one time used to buy the biscuits came in a big tin box, in packets inside that box, and she used to bring one of these different types of grain and my task was to sort out those that were edible for humans and the rest for the animals so I used to sort these out, this she would have to do it cause she, she run that farm, she milked the cow, she did the shopping, and she was the one that had to go to the to get the licences to get the nes free papers for the family because the sons couldn’t go otherwise they were under and [unclear] himself couldn’t go so that, you know, she was the real workhouse I can write a book about her but I can tell you what happened I was there and eventually became when I was to get go to the next place, no whilst I was there I had a haemorrhoids and the doctor to come and he prescribed just a little tablet to insert
BB: Yes
EH: And he wanted something to remember me the only thing I had was a small protector [unclear] to give to him and then on the sixth of June which by chance was to be the date I was to be best man at my wife’s, at that time my girlfriend’s brother who was in the RAF, he was getting married and I was to be best man but [unclear] thought it was my marriage
BB: Right.
EH: But he came up to me and envasi, envasi, I knew the invasion had started
BB: 6th of June, D-Day.
EH: On the 6th of June, yes, so I said to him, whiskey so he went back and we had a little drink, just he and I, had a little drink and then, when I had to leave the farm, decided to take me a photograph, now a business man provided Frans with a suit, is that the photograph?
BB: That’s the photograph of Frans.
EH: Of Frans?
BB: Yeah, yeah.
EH: Yeah, well, the photograph of the dog,
US: [unclear]
EH: So this business man provided me with a suit but said to me, leave here, leave, get away from here or all be killed, they’ll all be killed, they and he give me ten guilders which was no use to me, I couldn’t use anyway but then my conscience risking their lives but they had to make the arrangements or point me in the right direction, true enough they made arrangements and the next place I went to was [unclear] the family Faro, the family Faro, they are all deceased, a woman, she had a son, she ran at a village a shop and to a different people coming in that’s people hiding and moving to the next place, I was then moved from there to, it was a big house and a little Dutchman but he had an American wife she was very tall and I don’t think they were happy to have me hiding in their house I was only there I don’t think forty-eight hours and I don’t think they were happy but he himself said that he flew aircraft in the First World War
BB: Alright.
EH: But then I got the impression this American lady, she was a bit concerned about me staying there, then I moved from there to a farm, it was just a single wooden building and there was an old man wearing clogs he didn’t speak English but his son I did discover was in the Dutch navy and this chappie asked me, you know, could I get him shoes, of course ration back here and he also on the tie of that suit I was wearing, he wrote his son’s name and address, service number so that if I got back to UK we could contact them through the embassy. Unfortunately I must continue now and then from there I was moved again, I lived in Holmegrun, you see, that’s a drawing, it’s a forst, and there was a hole on the ground and they actually made it into a, lined it with straw and then so that the wooden perch with and we were locked in there and at night time they would come give us something to eat and drink and then we would wonder round the woods to attend to mother nature and then come back and were locked and meantime I knew from the underground, four members of my crew had been killed, one had been captured, that was five of us, myself was six, then I was introduce to Derrick, is tappest, tappace place, Moregas I think was the name that, we later went back, Derrick had been hidden inside in this monastery and we were brought together with the underground to see if we were the persons we claimed, he recognised me, I with him, so from then on that accounted for my crew, there were seven now, the sixth man, the eighth man must still be evading capture, that was my hope. And the only man I wanted to hope was the original, Mack was the original wireless operator but he wanted to learn how to operate the H2S so that’s why unfortunately didn’t find discovered after the war was also dead. But then to this the last place in Holland I’ve forgotten the name now but somewhere in the records of my and there I gived them ten guilders that I had, that I couldn’t use into Belgium eventually came along and was a female and came half way and we were told she doesn’t speak English, she doesn’t speak French, for a person living in Belgium, however we were not to try to speak to her but just follow her so I was unhappy because this wasn’t the sort of reception that I had when I was moved to another place I was introduced, I wasn’t even introduced to this person, eventually we, to the bus and sitting on the back of the bus were youngsters, seventeen, eighteen years of age, all dressed the same, I think that they were Hitler Youth movements and they were all sitting at the back of the bus, we the only ones, I think that they were part of the ploy, that we were being betrayed, and they were there to ensure that tried anything funny they would have shot us, I’ve no proof of that, just a feeling, hunch I had, thinks are not going the way they should and I said to the French Canadian, he’s the navigator, he came from Montreal, I asked to speak to her in French but she declined, she didn’t understand, she didn’t understand English, she knew fine well what was happening, I didn’t but Derrick and I were a bit suspicious so we eventually were driven into Antwerp and she got off the bus and we followed but we went together, we just followed so he followed, I think the French Canadian first, then Derrick and then I behind, eventually we take into this large shop, it msut have been a big shop like McEwans, shop or something, but it was a coffeshop high ceilings and everything, lots of people in uniform and three people in civil clothes and there was an empty table with four chairs or fice chairs and we were told to sit down, then a chappie came and sat beside us, the girl we had followed, she produced a piece of paper and he produced a piece of paper, put them together and I knew straight away this is not, this is not right, Derrick knew, he wasn’t happy and the French Canadian, he didn’t pass a word about it, but I felt that there’s something not right, al these people around me, there was a slight hope cause I had been told underground possible at some stage in German uniform and take me down to Switzerland I was hoping that was it.
BB: But it wasn’t.
EH: But eventually this girl got up, they put the two pieces of paper together word or something it was a poor imitation of the real thing however the chap she went off and we were told to follow this chap and we went through a back entrance so this, just let me borrow something
US: There’s a photograph. You’re ok?
EH: This was the shop, you see, the woman here and we were taken through the back road down here and directly opposite was a church and the church was not on level ground, was raised, visible wall around it but raised.
BB: yes.
EH: I didn’t get the name and they went three people standing there and we were introduced to him, this chap that had met us inside and then we were told to get in the car so the three of us got in the back of this car and some girls went by in uniform, I hadn’t seen a female in uniform and I asked that young girl, oh, are those young ladies Germans? No, they were girls that work on the telephone section, they had their own dress.
BB: Uniform.
EH: So we start the car and we start driving on oh I would say about four, five hundred yards and they just pulled into an archway and they are standing outside with two [unclear] and this chap gets out of the car, follow me, we follow, I’m still thinking, oh, they gonna put me in a German uniform and take me into, when he got us inside he turned around, right gentlemen military police.
BB: Luftwaffe police?
EH: That was it. And they separated us and they put me in a room upstairs, I would say, it reminded me of my old school, a big room, high ceiling
BB: Master study.
EH: But aside of that, triple bunk beds and I was posted into a single room, there was one window, I tried to open the window which had been screwed tight, oh, I couldn’t open it, but in any case there was only, there was [unclear] downstairs, a space between the buildings and I could see a drain of pipe running from upstairs on that wall but I couldn’t open the window even trying and I wanted to try and go down but I was so exhausted by this time, I just [unclear] and fell asleep. And I was woken by kicked, of course I jumped up then lying dreaming rifle pushing my teeth.
BB: Were you still in your
EH: Civvy clothes?
BB: Yeah, but did you have your uniform underneath your civvy clothes?
EH: No, just civvy clothes.
US: That’s the suit, my dad was wearing, you can see the double two tails
EH: That dog belonged to the business gentlemen’s
BB: The one you didn’t like.
US: The one who, the business man who gave him the suit
BB: Who gave him the suit, sorry, [unclear]
EH: So, he then took me, stripped me and he took me I was both individually to this and then he turned round, he says, right, who are you, you are a spy. I got my dog tags, he took the dog tags off, he just threw them across the room, and he said, [unclear] my grandmother, I will see with lots of and two dog tags oh I am so and so this, I’m meaningless, said he. So I am now without my dog tags.
BB: Was he Gestapo or Luftwaffe please?
EH: Just something, the German military police, I think he was trying to
BB: Provoke you into something
EH: Well, it wasn’t physical but then he said, you’re a spy, we shoot spies, and then he stripped so I was stripped naked, he saw I was circumcised, he said, ah, you’re a Jew! Oh, we have special treatments for Jews. Note, at that time we didn’t know what was happening in the concentration camps, so we had thought so I could either be shot or there is a special treatment for Jews. And there was a little pressure put on me, asking questions but they are trying to scare you, frighten you and then they pushed me into a separate room, this big room with lots of bunk beds, obviously they were using it as a sort of barracks but there was no, I think it must have been a school or something at one time, but they put me in this room and I put my head out the door, everything was quite at the end of the corridor was a guard, German guard and he had a rifle and he start pushing the [unclear] up and down, Jew, Jew, [mimics a noise] obviously [unclear] from Berlin, we were in a terrible mess and I went back to the window was a chappie, I think he was a blacksmith cause he had a little fire there and I sang, my name is Ernest Holmes, I am RAF, just singing, [unclear] and there was only one occasion when he turned round, he was nodding but I hoped that would be the a blacksmith not a German but I think I got the message through to him that I was there but I didn’t want to be there and then, eventually from there they put us in a truck, it’s a fifteen hundred trucker [unclear] and there’s a gate and we had to go, they closed the wired type of gate so that we were trapped and then sitting outside there was a German with a machine gun and from there they took us into from Antwerp they took us to Brussels and they took us to a place called the castle, that used to be prisoner of war camp, no, used to be a prison, but then the Germans had taken and the three of us were then locked in a room and then you could see quite clearly a microphone and the window like a prison was high and we were given little food, little liquid, and we had biscuits, we can buy them over here, they’re nachabrot, it’s just, that was it, no food, no meat.
BB: How many of you were there at this point? How many people were you at this point?
EH: Three of us in this room. And then we were taken out, I can only speak for myself, I can tell you what happened to Derrick cause we were separated and then I was taken downstairs naked, no, before that the intelligence officer was there and he was dressed in an RAF type uniform but he had buttons with a red, white buttons with a red cross on,
BB: Oh, ok.
EH: He spoke very good English but he was huge. I think I described him as a fat however he [unclear] you know, oh they want to know who you are and I said, I clear my protection to the Geneva Convention, prisoner of war
BB: [unclear]
EH: No, he was quite content to sit and just wanted me to sit and speak, you know, and get frightened cause you know, then he started putting [unclear] oh, you’re a spy, we’ll kill you, Jew special treatment we are building up and when he stripped me and I was taken into the dungeon, when I got into the dungeon there was a German with a machine gun standing and he [unclear] on, what’s the name of the thing that you are standing on? You give, someone is giving a talk,
BB: A [unclear].
US: [unclear]
EH: There, against the wall, was a was this person but dressed as a [unclear], you could smell the newness of the suit, and I thought, no, I’ve seen that shape before but I didn’t want to admit he was the chappie the first as a red cross man you see but this chappie, Jude, Jude, Jude, Jude, and then I was there for some time, five, six minutes, with this harassment coming from this coming and there was this person and I think this is part of the ploy to actually test me to see if I was a Jew, cause he had been dressed in this suit there is no other a Jew in Brussels in 1945
BB: Very rare.
EH: So, I just as I went by, I said, don’t lose faith, don’t lose faith but in such a loud voice, eventually I was taken back and then I was asked to sign a form and this was to be a form that was printed from the red cross, but printed on the top of that form was printed in Berlin, so I knew straight away this is a show trying to get information so eventually we were, Derrick went through the same process, Derrick also had bene circumcised, now I don’t know about the Canadian cause from then on we were separated but eventually he decided that we were prisoners of war and this was after about seven, eight weeks, we were then, we were going to prison of war camp and it was whilst we got in the prison of war camp the escape had taken place on the 23rd of March,
BB: Great escape.
EH: I wasn’t shot down until the 22nd of May. And the prisoners were wearing black armbands they told me the story of what had happened but I was in the same hut, have we got the book?
US: I’ve got it, yes.
EH: There is a little logbook I was given.
BB: Yes, I [unclear]
EH: Now, I had been was given a logbook and the first thing that was in my mind was my crew, there’s lots of just the people
BB: Gosh, yes, go on. [unclear] the shower.
EH: The first thing I did was thinking of my crew, I tried, I was mainly concerned about this eighth men member and I hope that it was Mike, can you find the page David?
US: [unclear] which is the poem?
EH: Yes. One left.
US: Carl wrote a poem expressing his feelings about what had happened
EH: The drawing was on that side, the poem’s on the right.
US: Do you want me to read it out, Dad?
EH: Yes. It was [unclear]
US: [unclear] to sent a photograph of the crucifix
EH: Oh.
US: So, it is in memory of those members of the crew flying Lancaster E for Edward who sacrificed their lives for their country on the 22nd of May 1944, so I will remember, when the sun sets and darkness falls, I will remember, when the sun rises and another day is born I will remember, for remembrance is all that I possess of those I knew so well, those who flew with me into the silent night to fight the foe, they asked not for bloodshed nor did they start the fight, but when they heard the bugle call they jumped to fight for right, after they prepared for missions flying into the sleeping night to bring death and destruction to those who called right might, they did their job right, they did it well but this couldn’t last for on the 23rd of May we fell and became as the past, four aviator missing, these we know are dead, three more accounted for, the eighth man is still ahead, making his way for his own homeland, keep going, my friend, Tommy, Johnny, Mac and Jock have left this earth but we who live will remember, I with Derrick and Ron, from the setting of the sun to the rising of the [unclear] we will think of those who kept up England’s fame, will you and England remember.
BB: Moving. And we do remember and Bomber Command [unclear] a very bad deal at the end of the war
EH: Yeah.
BB: And I blame Churchill for that. Cause Harris, Harris had defied Churchill on a couple of occasions and Mr Dowding had done as well sending more Hurricanes to France and I think he was quite vindictive in that respect occasionally, great man but I think you know he’s human when he’s doing things but I think that Harris and Dowding got a raw deal.
EH: The whole of the RAF got a bad reputation but for what has taken place but if it hadn’t taken place, we would all be speaking German.
BB: exactly.
EH: Ah
BB: I mean, when you listen to contemporary newsreels of that time, particularly after the Blitz, the Blitz on other cities, the populations of those saying, go and give it back to them! Go and give it! And so Harris did exactly that, he was doing what he was bed by the war cabinet and by Churchill and he went and he fulfilled that as best as he could and then it all got [unclear] after the war cause [unclear] so well. But that’s all been, I think, Bomber Command went through that darkness
EH: Yes
BB: And then it came out at the other end and here we are
EH: There is a little gap
BB: That’s what these guys at Lincoln are trying to do
EH: Yes, but there was a little gap, someone [unclear] resentment as I did because a medal was produced that cost fifteen pounds and this was to, and I bought one
BB: This was the Bomber Command memorial, this
EH: No, no, this has nothing to do with Bomber Command,
BB: I beg your pardon.
EH: Someone had produced to say a thank you, to say that we had done a good job
BB: Oh my god, Right, right.
EH: But that was replaced seventy years later with the Bomber Command crest.
BB: Clasp.
US: The bar and the
BB: That didn’t [unclear] till 1945, yeah.
EH: So in a fact, I have, I told you about this medal, it’s now meaningless but that was the resentment that we had and that’s why I bought it
BB: Quite right.
EH: I have it, it’s hidden
BB: [unclear] let down by
EH: The thing
BB: Did you apply for your Bomber Command clasp?
EH: Yes, I have, we have the medal, but the sad thing was, after the war I went to Bomber Command, to Pathfinder headquarters [unclear] give me the choice of either going back at the squadron or going into Transport Command but he warned me, the squadron is preparing to go out to the Far East and being [unclear] tropical [unclear] I said at the time I think I have had my fair share of war, I remember that two forced marches and [unclear] so he arranged to go to Pathfinder, to the
BB: Transport, Transport Command
EH: To [unclear], I’m sorry Bournemouth, I went there with the squadron and who was the CO of the squadron? The squadron leader and Wing Commander Dan [unclear] he sent me on my last op and he was waiting for me coming back from that last op to show me the London Gazette and he gave me my ribbon to put on
BB: Oh, how wonderful.
EH: And he repost me, he said, you are improperly dressed, oh, I don’t know what I had, all I had was the thirty nine forty five, and he, from there he didn’t tell me but he took me with his we sat down and we went through all my operations experience through, I finished up with up with a France Germany medal and also the Italian star and I was wearing them until Kinloss when a group captain Caddy, a Canadian, he was a gentleman, he wanted normal story to, [unclear], the reason he wanted me was there was the coronation and there was seven medals allotted to Kinloss and I was to get one of them, so I had to get my other medals, when I applied for them I discovered I wasn’t entitled to the France Germany medal because I’m in Holland trying to get through, but I wasn’t in France, I wasn’t entitled to it, and also I had done [unclear] to Caen to [unclear], there is a bridgehead to Italy and the railway lines from Caen were feeding that and we went to destroy that railway line in Caen itself and we went down to four thousand feet to bomb and it was in aid of the [unclear] bridgehead
BB: Right
EH: And so I took those down, I had to apologize to the CO I had been wearing this because they told me I wasn’t entitled and he got really annoyed with the and he said, oh, I’ll speak to the OC, we already trained through the Pathfinder force [unclear] you went there so you didn’t get it, so I wasn’t entitled to the France Germany because I hadn’t been stationed in Italy, I couldn’t
BB: But you clearly got the France and Germany clasp, you get the aircrew Europe?
EH: No. No, I haven’t got a France Germany at all.
BB: No, I met sometimes
EH: I got a victory medal
BB: Right, didn’t get the aircrew Europe?
EH: Didn’t get the France because I am in Holland
US: But Dad, listen to the question again. Listen to the question again.
BB: Did you get the aircrew Europe star?
EH: Oh yes,
BB: Cause that would have been where you would have worn the France and Germany clasp on that star, had you been able to
EH: No, I didn’t have the, there was no recognition at all for the France Germany, the, I got the victory medal
BB: I see [unclear] put that right
EH: I actually, the many things that freshen my mind but when I think of my story that I have, can I tell you a little more?
BB: Sure, of course you can.
EH: Frances, Frances von der Heyden,
US: [unclear]
EH: After I left
US: She was Francis daughter
BB: Francis daughter
EH: And she was the girl that found me, she was the workhouse on the farm, she looked after us, she made food for us, and [unclear] for us, for the undertakers and there were six children, she was the elder but let me speaking two separate stories [unclear] after I left, the bridge too far does it ring a bell?
BB: Arnhem. Yes.
EH: Well, the aircraft going passed nearby, near the [unclear] where I was and [unclear] and she comes across an American airman who was wounded on a shoulder ands he made arrangements and she took him in the farm and he was in the pigsty where I had been but then [unclear] by this time the troops were not too far away and [unclear] went across, no, I didn’t see this, I am told by the family, he went across the fields to the British and said he had an American and he wanted help, take him away but they didn’t believe him, they thought that it was a trap and the Germans would be [unclear] of him but they gave him some dressing [unclear] so he went back somehow somewhere the Germans found out he crossed the line and they came to the village and there they found them in the church and they were going to shoot the whole family and France argued, he was master of his house and the family had to do he was [unclear] not them and they shot him in front of them
BB: Yeah, was that ever followed up after the war because if they went in and did all this stuff after the war [unclear]
EH:
US: There is a memorial to Frans
EH: Well, what did happen with I had to be taught but they what happened when I first went back however the family unfortunately went [unclear] dispersal remember was nature and young baby sister I think she is still alive and one of her brothers and that’s left and there’s grandchildren after them [unclear] I’m in contact with and I have been on contact with her family for over seventy years
BB: Oh, that’s wonderful. It’s wonderful. Other Bomber Command aircrew I have interviewed, were they, had they similar experiences to yours, have kept up with their people as well. It’s amazing the bond that existed, you know, there was these young, frightened aircrew, had the horrendous experience of getting out a bomber, landed in a foreign country, had done all the theory about what to do and you know Mi9 teaching them all sorts of things but at the end of the day, you know, they were given help and shelter and food and help you know by the resistance, well the escape line I should say.
EH: But what they did for me is not my story, it’s her story, there was Frans murdered cause he had helped this American, the same thing could have, if I had been there the same thing could have happened to [unclear] but there at one point came when I will switch now from Frans to [unclear], [unclear] was invited to go to America where the some Dutch friends of hers and while she was there, she fell in love with the brother in law of this couple she was staying with and she wanted to get married but she was visiting the States and was not allowed to stay so she in actual fact gave us a [unclear] I should have it somewhere, the second page of the [unclear] Express, and this was where they had approached someone in the government to ask permission and she was told by the senator that if she could prove that she was a fit and worthy person to enter the States, he would try to do what he could for her and she sent me the cutting of the paper where this article was in and I went to my lawyer and explained to him the position and he then [unclear], he actually wrote the letter and she got permission to stay and they got married. But that wasn’t the end of the story because Jan and her brother who was back home he found, he didn’t speak English but he and I, he and I could converse, we understood one another but he, he had an American correspondence [unclear] information so he approached this person and he give them the name and address and the service number of the American that was there and law and behold that American was [unclear] and the family went across, Nat was living in the States, and the family, members of the family, they went there and they actually saw,
BB: Oh, that was good.
EH: Yeah, Jan asked them, [unclear] and make sure so he showed them the wound and he asked, why didn’t you, oh, I thought you were all dead, I thought they shot all, he hadn’t even reported the fact that [unclear]
BB: Yes
EH: So that was a sad tale.
BB: That was a very sad tale, yeah.
EH: Yes.
BB: Well, Ernest, thank you very much
EH: Can I tell you one, just one more?
US: Dad, just two seconds. We are going to have fish and chips for lunch.
BB: Right.
US: I was just going to go and pick them up.
BB: Yes.
US: Would you like to join us? You will join us.
BB: I’d be delighted to, thank you very much indeed. Yeah.
US: I’m going to slip away to get some lunch. Alright?
EH: [unclear] tell the story that I could see it as a [unclear] for a love story [laughs]
BB: Ok, on you go.
EH: [unclear]
US: [unclear] if I leave at this point.
EH: When we were, when we had our last meal, you know, after operations and before operations you go and you have your meal, there was normally sausage, bacon and eggs, well, that night when we sat down, Derrick and I sat together and there was no eggs, and I said to the [unclear], you’ve forgotten the eggs, and she said, Jock he said, [unclear] I can’t go ops without eggs, I got the chop, and she said to me, I’m sorry there’s no eggs and I apologised to her
RH: While we are on the subject of things that crews took with them, good luck charms, whatever you want to call them, my uncle was in 9 Squadron during the war, Australian, he flew from Bardney and did his full trip with 9 and then married my mother’s sister and then he went off to an OTU to instruct staff pilot as an instructor but unfortunately he was killed in a mid-air collision at the OTU, he flew, he flew with apparently, the photograph of my aunt, was later his wife, which he put on the panel of the Lancaster in front of the control column and he swore that got him through every op that he did but that [unclear] did the last one at the OTU [unclear].
US: These are letters that we found that have been written by somebody from [unclear]
BB: Right
US: After the war and we don’t know anything about this person, perhaps Dad will tell you
BB: Okay.
US: I’ll get some lunch.
EH: Can I finish this?
BB: Of course, you can.
EH: I was telling you about this that was on my conscience, when I was hiding that [unclear] that girl
BB: Yes
EH: Was on my mind and I was [unclear]
BB: I can imagine.
EH: [unclear], received the [unclear], I mean I am an emotional person, but by God if anything gets up my nose I just [laughs] however when I went back to see Bennet after the war, he said to me, give me the choice and I said that I’d go back to Holland and he said, right [unclear] go back, go to [unclear] and tell the CO to fly you to Holland but you make your own way back, oh, I accepted that but then when I went onto the squadron I didn’t know a face a part from the navigator I had previously
BB: Right
EH: Gibbs and the [unclear] saw me and he called, don’t move! [unclear]! She’s still here! And he disappeared through the door of the kitchen and he came back with the girl that had served me last meal and the one that I’d said would get the [unclear] and she came right across and the mess
BB: Full
EH: I didn’t know a face other than the [unclear] and my crew member he came across and flung her arms around me and I held her, I [unclear], I apologised for [unclear] and she had seen the [unclear] and she said, oh, I’m glad you’re back and she turned round and tears streaming down her face and they were also mine but I left it to the navigator and the [unclear] to answer any questions about my [unclear] was, there was no physical connection
BB: No, no.
EH: Just that eggs [laughs]
BB: Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, that’s a very interesting story now David passed me this letter, must be to do with someone in the Netherlands, that’s interesting. Anyway thank you for talking to me
EH: No
BB: And it’s a fascinating story and it’s probably the best interview which describes the whole prisoner of war initial interrogation
EH: right. I hope it hasn’t swamped you
BB: Not at all, not at all, because
EH: [unclear]
BB: That’s probably the bit than your Lancaster
EH: Yes, that’s the bit of my Lancaster because after the war we went back this is years later because I’m in Transport Command
BB: Yes, flying your
EH: And then the [unclear] had started but before that we went, [unclear] came with us, and we went, the, Jan, that’s the elder son, now deceased, he had [unclear] with some [unclear], every year the [unclear]
BB: Yeah.
EH: And he had mentioned the fact to these people that he called me Shirley [laughs] and he told his folks that that was, where the aircraft was and we were the undertakers that were alive, Willy and Luc and [unclear] and Jan and they came with us to the farm and the farmer, the farmhouse [unclear] and I couldn’t recognise it, if this is the place, my aircraft came down there and I was in the field here and I came across [unclear] but there was a well here and the farmer said, you are standing on it, the story was lightning put the farm on fire so the farmer had to [unclear] the whole place and [unclear] not just the farm building [unclear] the animals the whole and there was another personal build, I have a photograph of that, we have a photograph of at the farm at [unclear] and we also have photographs of [unclear] got after the war but I had to give everything to David because with my sight gone
BB: Yes, yes
EH: I felt so helpless
BB: I know but I mean, well, fifty-five thousand [unclear] aircrew in Bomber Command didn’t make it
EH: Didn’t make it, no
BB: And the chances of survival of a bomber crew in at the height of the Battle of the Ruhr was four trips
EH: yeah
BB: Four trips
EH: Yeah
BB: So, if you survived four you were already dead.
EH: That’s right
BB: And all the aircrew that I interviewed and tracing my late uncle’s crew as well, who survived the war, they all had mechanisms that distanced themselves from that [unclear] and it was to live for today, everything
EH: [unclear]
BB: Everything was that, don’t think about tomorrow, don’t think about the next op, don’t think about the Grim Reaper, no, it’s just live for today, and they said, they guys that worried about it, were the ones that, you know, that weren’t concentrating, that made a mistake or something and it was just, I don’t know, a luck of the draw, but there was a certain, I perceived a certain mental attitude which got people through,
EH: Well, but after the war I [unclear] because there was only one survivor, Derrick and I, Derrick and I were in contact, but Derrick now is dead and but the chappie who was my wireless operator, her also has died but I got he was interview by a chappie who collected stories from DFCs and DFMs.
BB: Alright.
EH: And he, the same chappie asked me more information and he told, I said ,there was no indication [unclear]
BB: God!
EH: Yeah, seconds
BB: Was it Schrage Musik that got you at the end? You know, the night fighter with the upper firing gun? Below the Lancs?
EH: Yes. You see, I can’t
BB: You can’t answer that because it just so instant
EH: I can’t answer
BB: Yeah, it was just one big matter
EH:
BB: It probably sounds like Schrage Musik because as you know, they went underneath the [unclear]
EH: Yeah
BB: Between the two inner engines, straight in the bomb bay [unclear]
EH: Well, we had two close encounters, but we never had to fire the guns
BB: No
EH: Never
BB: No
EH: So the wireless operator [unclear] had been fighting this [unclear] and the other but there was no guns fired, there was no warning, within thirty seconds the whole lot was over
BB: Yeah. Lucky, you were lucky.
EH: He, no, is dead so I can’t, but I went round to visit the families of them so [unclear] the widow of Johnny Stewart, he was the navigator, he kept a diary and he’d written every time in his diary trips that he went on and he always mentioned my name and his wife asked me who Shirley was, he spent, a lot of people thought my name was Shirley
BB: Yes, yes, yes.
EH: Was Sher-lee
BB: Eee, yeah, and the wife was wondering who Shirley was.
EH: Now then we, this is part of the aircraft, the farmer after the Germans had taken away the aircraft, bits and pieces so David actually took this as a memento
BB: Oh, that
EH: That’s it, I found the aircraft, I’ve been there, and this
BB: You went back to the crash site for the family
EH: Yeah
BB: Not only that, my great grandson, my daughter lives in Belgium and she had a daughter and she was [unclear], Alison was my [unclear].
BB: Gosh!
EH: And but he’s a great guy but he died playing tennis
BB: Heart attack.
EH: He and I got on fine and a lot of people use do think, oh, any with Alison [unclear] but there was no, in fact when he wanted to get married, he wanted to come over to us for my permission, I thought it was pointless in coming just for me to say yes or no.
BB: Yeah.
EH: So I said, don’t bother coming. You come over and have the marriage here and that was all over. So their daughter, so my granddaughter, my grandson and Alison went to the place with, along with one of the grandson of the Van de Hayden family, Hank, this is his name and he’s the one that kept in contact, he is the one who actually took them and they went to the farm and they walked all the way back to where I found, where [unclear] found me but instead of wading across the stream there is a bridge [laughs] and of course there’s no well, is all covered over
BB: All covered over, yeah. How interesting. And of course, you took a permanent commission in the Royal Air Force and you went on to do lots of other things. I mean, flying the routes with Avro York, long haul to Singapore and all sorts of [unclear]
EH: Yeah,
BB: And everything in between
EH: Yes
BB: How did you find the York, cause the York was really a
EH: Well, the armed forces
BB: Basically a Lancaster
EH: The armed force thing was, either the country flying and I’d be away three weeks, back for a few days, come up to Scotland and flew back again, so I couldn’t keep in contact with Derrick, he could go to Holland, I couldn’t
BB: yeah
EH: Cause when I was [unclear], I was [unclear] the CO to take me there, I said, I, eventually you realise that you can’t go empty handed
BB: Yeah [unclear]
EH: You can’t go empty handed, I need money, I didn’t have any money, I don’t think I had my check book with me at the time and we didn’t have cards at that time and I thought, I can’t go across there empty handed so I decided not to go. And then [unclear] Berlin airlift of course, my boss Ben was flying his own aircraft there as a civilian
BB: Yeah.
EH: So I met
BB: Avro Tudor [unclear], is that American Airways [unclear]? No, he started up the South American
EH: That’s right
BB: Airways
EH: That’s right. But then he was
BB: Tudors, Avro Tudors. And Lancastrians and Yorks.
EH: Yeah. He was flying [unclear] petrol
BB: Yeah.
EH: And now, when I visited the other members of the [unclear] I found that the widow of Mack who was the original wireless operator now training on the H2S, he had written a farewell letter to his wife which I gather he wrote every time and kissed this is my last trip, I didn’t know that till his wife told me she was most concerned because he had a baby and there was something wrong with the baby I remember that when we went out as a crew, we, they gave us some little bottles of oil of olive,
BB: Yeah
EH: For the use, for the baby was something wrong but her problem was she didn’t have access to a bank account, it was in his name, she couldn’t get it and I was only visiting there for a short weekend and I couldn’t help her so [unclear] so trying to get the Pathfinder club, he wasn’t even a member, he was in the Pathfinder but he wasn’t a member.
BB: [unclear]
EH: He died so I hope someone did have a [unclear] because Derrick tried to find her living in London, went back, no one in the area knew what had happened to her but the humorous part was that I went to Derrick’s folks, his father was a navigator in the First World War, and he too was shot down, he too became a prisoner of war, now, my story is we were having a dinner with the Pathfinder organisation and now where was the dinner?
BB: RAF club?
EH: No
BB: Pathfinder club?
EH: I, we had, I couldn’t go to the many [unclear] living, I was flying back and forth [unclear] whenever I had time and [unclear] I was with the Pathfinder club in the [unclear]
BB: [unclear]
EH: But with Derrick’s father, there’s a book written by [unclear] Broom.
BB: Oh yeah, Broom. Yeah [unclear]
EH: [unclear] The Battle for Berlin.
BB: The Battle for Berlin.
EH: [unclear]
BB: Alright, I’ll make a note of that [unclear]
EH: And at this time, I was now pilot officer.
BB: Alright. And of course you clocked up seventy hours on Yorks and so the transition to civil aviation was multi-engined experience flying the routes with Transport Command
EH: Yes, but my experience was an actual fact trading fuel, I did a tour with [unclear]
BB: Yes, [unclear]
EH: [unclear]
BB: By the [unclear]
EH: Unfortunately, you see, I held senior appointments but not the rank, I was interviewed by the but I have forgotten [unclear] Scotland [unclear] Scotland at [unclear]
BB: Yes, I used to be at [unclear]
EH: And he, it was a good [unclear], thought I had a raw deal, you know, interview with him
BB: Yeah
EH: But then he said to me, you should just tell the fuckers to stick it up their [unclear] ass, that was the words he used to me, yeah, [unclear] at the time but then I later met him again when I was on Glasgow University [unclear], when I went there the [unclear] was actually using the old typewriters typing things and printing, print out with these
BB: Yes, yeah. [unclear]
EH: And I said, oh, this is nonsense, [unclear] so I want and I got a lot of equipment, I got a camera, projector and also a [unclear] and my esteem went up with the squadron and eventually the OC at the time, I’ve forgotten his name, he came round and I heard wing commander [unclear], not a nice man, he was singing my praise and the OC said to me, [unclear] we are in, and I thought, well, and I think I should have said, Coastal Command. But I said Transport Command cause it [unclear] the end, if I had said Coastal Command and he would have brought precious memories up and that was a third recommendation for me [unclear] so I held senior posts but not the rank.
BB: Yeah, well that was, that’s a shame, no, I went, I started my intelligence work at [unclear] Castle, it was sent HQ NORMA, Northern Maritime Region
EH: Yes.
BB: And I reported directly to the admiral and they received [unclear] the coast of Scotland and Northern Ireland [unclear] and yes, the black huts, the black wooden huts, [unclear] we used to sleep in those and walked down to the pits, down those stairs, yes, it was interesting time, was very busy but ,[unclear] mainly spent hunting Russian submarines in the North Atlantic. With Shackletons initially, the MR 1 Shackleton and then of course [unclear] and so on.
EH: Well, I flew the Shackletons at Kinloss.
BB: Was it ten thousand rivets flying in formation?
EH: When I first came to Kinloss and were only doing coastal cross I was [unclear] at the time.
BB: Yeah, so you were [unclear]
EH: And then I suggested, [file missing] Winston Churchill was coming back on the Queen Mary I think it was from America and I arranged for a flight on Shackleton to go and greet him
BB: Excellent
EH: We got full of praise for that.
BB: Excellent. Yes.
EH: That was the first time the Shackletons had actually flown over [unclear] wartime, was just doing coastal crawls all the time do to the intensive trial period but was an easy aircraft to fly
BB: Yeah
EH: And I flew them, I didn’t fly as captain but I flew the aircraft, take-off, landing and flying around and I did even did practice bomb runs on the Moray Firth
BB: Yeah, yeah.
EH: And well I didn’t do a lot of flying in it but I did fly the Shackleton.
BB: [unclear] it was [unclear] the Lincoln, you know, it went from Lancaster, Lincoln, Shackleton
EH: Yeah
BB: So it was lovely aeroplane.
EH: Oh, Yes. Oh, the Lancaster.
BB: Shackleton, [unclear] Shackleton.
EH: Well I had Mark I, II, Halifax, and the Mark III, now the Mark III was a complete change, it was a [unclear] aircraft, it had sixteen hundred horsepower Hercules engines radials
BB: Yeah.
EH: It was a heavy aircraft, what a difference was from the [unclear] so I got three stitches of [unclear], and then the Lanc, I flew the Lanc, that was a beautiful aircraft to fly.
BB: Did you fly the maritime version as well?
EH: Pardon?
BB: Did you fly the maritime version of the Lancaster as well?
EH: No.
BB: No.
EH: No. No, but I did visit one, there was one in a museum here
BB: Oh, that’s right [unclear]
EH: David was nursing at the time, was training at the time, [unclear] hospital and he heard about it and we went out to visit and there’s a photograph and on that photograph there’s the name Holmes and I reckon it’s a pity they hadn’t put they date on and I reckon as a photograph of an operation, you know, the names were taken off.
BB: Yeah, what a shame.
US2: Can I interrupt? Sorry. We need to [unclear]
BB: Ok, right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ernest Holmes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHolmesEA160129
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:37:23 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ernest Holmes joined the RAF and served as a pilot, flying operations first with 76 Squadron and then on Pathfinders. Gives a vivid and detailed account of when he was shot down over Holland: how he was given shelter by a farmer’s family and moved to different locations; his eventful escape to Belgium; his capture and interrogation by the Gestapo and internment in a prisoner of war.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-06-10
1943
1944-05-21
1945-10-10
10 OTU
35 Squadron
76 Squadron
aircrew
animal
anti-Semitism
bombing
evading
fear
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Kinloss
Resistance
Shackleton
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
the long march
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/173/253/PMaggioniF1601.1.jpg
2b52b164110174e56095172219eb4eff
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/173/253/AMaggioniF161203.2.mp3
eeba9f9b823772e0bada221f9193f25f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Maggioni, Fausta
Description
An account of the resource
F Maggioni
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
One oral history interview with Fausta Maggioni who recollects wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Maggioni, F
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ST: Volevo chiederle signora Fausta se ci può parlare della sua famiglia, della sua vita negli anni ‘30.
FM: Sì, sì, dunque niente io sono nata nel ‘31 e la guerra l’ho vissuta un po’ da ragazzina, da bimba, da bimba, ragazzina. Mi ricordo che quando c’erano i bombardamenti eeh avevano fatto sotto nel nostro casolario ehm un rifugio, così. E mi ricordo che mio papà era capo, per per correre sempre avanti e indietro sui solai perché allora avevamo i solai pieni di di di legna, carbone, e per vedere se cadeva qualche, adesso io non mi ricordo come si chiamavano quando bombardavano in città. Siccome che io abitavo in, un po’ in fuori, perché siamo abitavo a Trenno ma è sempre Milano, e si vedevano cadere delle, non so come come spiegarmi, che cosa si diceva, allora c’era mio papà che era a capo, capo di lì con un altro ragazzo che giravano tutti il condominio su in solaio per vedere se cadeva qualche, ma guarda che non riesco a, va beh insomma lasciamo perdere lì andiamo avanti. E niente, però nel frattempo, nel giro di due anni o che, la cosa è cambiata anche perché io ormai ero già grande e, e c’erano i partigiani e i, partigiani, c’erano i partigiani e i tedeschi, ma più che i tedeschi erano i, come si dice, aiutatemi, i fascisti, fascisti contro i ragazzi che non andavano a militare. Io avevo mio fratello con due o tre suoi amici e allora ci incaricavano noi ragazzi, se eravamo sulla strada così fuori, se vedevamo qualcuno che arrivava col mitra in spalla di chiamare subito. E allora i ragazzi avevano fatto una buca all’esterno del cortile e si nascondevano lì con delle foglie, avevano fatto. Ecco quello lì era la, il nostro lavoro da fare, i primi i primi anni eh della guerra così che io mi ricordo da bambina che andavo a scuola, siccome che mio papà non era fascista, non mi davano neanche la possibilità di andare in vacanza con gli altri bambini perché mio papà era fascista, e mio papà non voleva che mettessi la gonna e la camicetta quando c’erano, c’eran dei giochi da fare, ed io ero esclusa perché chi non aveva la tessera di, del partito fascista non avevano diritto a niente. Vabbeh, e io però ero una bambina, non mi pesava più di tanto, poi col passar degli anni ho cominciato anche ad andare anche a scuola e io son rimasta sotto bombardamento, la mia scuola è crollata un pezzetto, e allora la mamma per, per paura mi ha mandato dai parenti fuori Milano, che poi quel lato lì la scuola non era identica a quella che facevo io, insomma sono andata a terminare la scuola con, con nessun voto e dovevo ripetere e non sono andata più a scuola, vabbeh poi dopo ho passato degli anni così. Ecco il ricordo più brutto che ho, dopo quello lì che hanno ucciso e c’è la lapide anche sulla strada, hanno ucciso due persone perché si scontravano fascisti e tedeschi, c’erano i tedeschi che non so, perché io ho visto perché essendo anche ragazzini però avevi la curiosità, eravamo anche scemi o proprio non capivamo niente, eh di andare tutti in bicicletta facendo la strada un po’ nascosta nei nei prati per vedere come erano i tedeschi che passavano sulla strada, così eravamo già alla ritirata. Perché io faccio un po’ da dall’inizio alla fine eh, perché qui adesso un po’. È un ricordo che ho, una mattina, siccome che mio nonno lavorava in una cascina, proprio qua vicino, e tutte le mattine le davano il latte e allora io col mio calderino col coperchio sopra andavo sempre a prendere il latte, dovevo attraversare, te ti ricordi dove c’è la pista dei cavalli? Ecco lì avevano fatto un buco nella siepe per, per arrivare prima lì e non fare tutto il giro della strada, io mi ricordo, sono andata, ho preso il mio latte, sto ritornando esco dal buco della, mi trovo lì tre ragazzi col fucile in mano, io non so cosa mama, ‘Ma cosa fai?’ che si mettono a gridare ‘Ma cosa fai in giro?! Vai via che ci sono i fascisti di là! Corri a casa!’. Io correvo correvo col mio calderino del latte, sono arrivata a casa senza latte, arrivo a casa il portone, il mio portone del, del palazzo era chiuso perché nel frattempo era arrivato il carro che trasportava il latte, per portarlo in centrale, c’era il carro col cavallo e l’han portato dentro in cortile senza lasciarlo fuori e io avevo una paura, ero lì fuori e non c’era nessuno, ho cominciato a picchiare la porticina dove si poteva entrare, finché a un certo punto qualcuno mi ha aperto ecco lì poi son crollata, son scoppiata a piangere mi ricordo ancora e senza il latte, il latte era andato per terra non c’era più neanche il coperchio ‘Vabbeh il coperchio lo andrai a cercare, lo troverai’ e niente tutto qua. E anche la storia che se andava, mio fratello quando poteva se sapeva che c’era e non c’erano tante persone in giro a cercarli, perché allora c’erano anche i partigiani, i partigiani li cercavano per avere qualcuno che li aiutasse, mentre i fascisti li cercavano perché mio fratello era del ‘24 era un periodo che loro dovevano essere, essere i militari, e lì piuttosto di andare coi fascisti beh ha rinunciato, se poi andava bene bene. Poi un’altra cosa, io mi ricordo che nel frattempo avevo mio zio, era stato trasportato con quei treni dell’accidente lì in Germania nel campo di concentramento e, e m’era arrivato a casa mia, perché lui viveva con mia mamma e con noi, era era da solo, era arrivato un cartellino, un biglietto della croce rossa in cui si diceva ‘Un familiare della sua famiglia è stato ricoverato, è stato trasportato, è stato mandato in Germania come come prigioniero’ e allora con quel biglietto lì mia mamma me lo ha messo sulla, sul buffet, me lo ha appiccicato su, e mi diceva sempre ‘Ti ricordo che lì c’è quel biglietto, se per caso arrivano i fascisti a bussare alla porta e cercano il Mario gli dici che Mario non c’è perché l’han portato in Germania, perché c’è qua il biglietto della Croce Rossa’. E allora con quella storia di quel biglietto lì mio fratello ne approfittava un po’, perché mio zio si chiamava Bele però non c’era il nome, c’era solo ‘Un vostro familiare’, e allora per mio fratello insomma gli andava un pochino alla grande diciamo, che non doveva sempre scappare e così niente. Poi altre cose, che dovevi andare a cercare da mangiare perché noi avevamo gli orticelli che, però mancava, mancava tutto, mancava sale, mancava qua, le patate e allora mio fratello quando, quando c’era il periodo un po’ che andava bene, assieme ad altre persone alla notte, alla sera uscivano e andavano nei paesi a cercare, cercare qualcosa da mangiare, basta, tutto tutto qua. E io quando quando sono rimasta sotto il bombardamento meno male che non è successo niente, lì in corso Magenta c’era una scuola, delle superiori e niente poi, eh ce ne sarebbero di cose da raccontare però ecco il ricordo più più brutto è stato quando ho incontrato quei tre ragazzi lì e quando come cretini siamo andati sulla via Novara a vedere i tedeschi che andavano e lì c’erano i partigiani, dove c’è adesso la, il cimitero degli inglesi, perché su via Novara hanno fatto il cimitero degli inglesi e proprio lì c’erano lì i partigiani, non lo so perché adesso spiegare bene non mi ricordo proprio, io so che c’era tedeschi sulla via, la via Novara, quella là, quella là grande che passavano coi carrarmati, ne ho visti due, la curiosità di andare a vedere i carrarmati, avevo, avevo quindici anni ok? Quattordici quindici anni, eravamo dei stupidi proprio, eravamo in cinque o sei la compagnia solita, però camminavamo a un certo punto abbiamo lasciato la bicicletta nella, nei campi e corravamo, correvamo, per andare a vedere, nel frattempo invece c’erano i partigiani dall’altra parte che seguivano quattro o cinque s’chaman, fascisti e lì c’è stato uno scontro perché anche un signore di quelli lì che hanno ucciso era un fascista e c’è andato di mezzo anche un altro signore che quello là non c’entrava niente e però sono stati uccisi tutti e due lì. Ah un ricordo brutto che adesso mi mi viene in mente: la domenica, domenica pomeriggio, allora questo eravamo bambini ancora, i primi anni della guerra cioè, i priami anni che è iniziato esistere, i come si chiama, i, dunque i fascisti, eeh gli altri, aiutatemi a dire la parola.
ST: I nazisti? I tedeschi?
FM: Quelli che combattevano contro i fascisti.
ST: Ah i partigiani?
FM: I partigiani ecco, scusate eh ma io vado anche, dunque la domenica pomeriggio, andavamo all’oratorio, ai tempi nostri si andava all’oratorio e con le suore così, allora c’erano le suore che ci portavano al cimitero di Musocco, perché allora quando c’era qualche morto sulle strade portavano al cimitero, e quel giorno lì c’era un signore che mi ha detto ‘Cià dai venite vi porto io sul carro’ invece di andare a piedi perché noi andavamo a piedi, era come se andavamo a fare una passeggiata per andare al cimitero. Oh mamma, lì abbiamo iniziato a vedere morti sulle strade, siamo arrivati al cimitero, l’entrata principale, il signore l’avevamo lasciato giù era col carro col cavallo, immaginatevi voi. Siamo scesi, morti dappertutto c’era all’entrata del cimitero, dico ‘Suora ma io non entro’ ‘Ma no, ma poi avanti non ce ne sono più di morti, sono tutti qui’. Insomma siamo entrati, meno male che poi l’uscita abbiamo fatto la, il retro e siamo tornati a piedi, ma quel ricordo lì, una cosa pazzesca. Ricordo quando mio papà mi ha detto che è andato in piazza Loreto a vedere la, l’impiccagione del, che avevano appeso il Duce. Io non sono andata, l’ho visto solo in fotografia, ma mio papà è andato con una soddisfazione, contento come una Pasqua. Ho dì ‘Papà però, potevano fargli scontare la pena e non ucciderli così’ e va beh, niente, penso di aver detto tutto di quello che mi ricordo, ricordi ce ne sarebbero, prima di tutto faccio fatica a parlare, anche quello, poi i ricordi si. C’ho un bel ricordo ma questo c’entra c’entra si e no con la guerra, perché prima di tutto quello che ho raccontato, io e mia sorella, la nonna di Greta, eravamo due bambine e con la storia della guerra le nostre mamme ci han mandato a Prabiago [Parabiago] in una famiglia, erano gli zii dei nostri, delle nostre mamme, perché qua, c’era poco da mangiare e là si pensava che si poteva mangiare di più. E invece, noi due, dunque io avevo forse sette otto, otto anni non so, e mia, la nonna di lei ne aveva due in meno di me, pensavamo di andare dalla zia su là e trovare qualcosa da mangiare, no cosa abbiamo trovato? Un, due vasi di vetro grandi così anche di più, uno pieno di cipolline, uno pieno di cetrioli, questa qui vien da ridere. Solo che noi due mangiavamo poco, ci davano poco da mangiare, o, o se riuscivamo ad andare in un campo vicino dove c’erano delle angurie, andavamo a rubare le angurie per mangiarla, però non sempre, e se no dovevamo mangiare quello che ci dava la zia ma era poco, allora a un certo punto, mia, mia Silvana mi dice ‘Eh telefoniamo, scriviamo a casa di venire a prenderci’ e le era ancora più piccola di me ‘Eh ma come facciamo? Dai andiamo, tanto che non c’è la zia tiriamo fuori un cetriolo’. E allora quando non c’era nessuno, perché avevano come una specie di bar, quando vedevano che non c’era nessuno ero io quella che doveva mettere la mano e tirare fuori il cetriolo, poi dare un cetriolo a lei, un cetriolo a me, una cipollina, e mangiavamo un po’ così, guarda un po’, certo punto dice ‘Senti proviamo a scrivere’ ‘E dove andiamo a prendere la cartolina?’. Soldi non ne avevamo perché eravamo là dagli zii che son lì, e allora c’era lì una signora ‘E madonna maria non ha un bigliettino un, dovremmo scrivere alla mamma e al papà e far sapere dove siamo?’ ‘Sì sì ti do io un biglietto’ era un biglietto postale, allora c’erano quelli lì. E allora di nascosto abbiamo messo insieme quattro parole ‘Venite a prenderci perché abbiamo fame, abbiamo fame’ tutto quello che abbiamo scritto. E sua mamma, lo stavo dicendo un giorno, mi ha detto ‘Ma a chi l’ha indirizzata?’. Oddio io non mi ricordo a chi la abbiamo indirizzata, io so che dopo tre o quattro giorni sono venute tutte e due a portarci a casa, eh, abbiam finito di mangiare i cetrioli. Questo qui vien da ridere però, a vedere i tempi di quegli anni là, niente non so se è sufficiente quello che ho detto.
ST: Volevo, volevo chiederle una cosa sulla sua scuola, lei ha detto che la sua scuola in corso Magenta venne bombardata.
FM: Ma non ha, non ha avuto tanti danni, però noi siamo riusciti tutti a uscire sani e salvi, non c’è stato niente, solo che poi io non ho potuto più andare perché mi han mandato dagli zii, io facevo la la scuola, di là c’era solo la, quella per imparare un mestiere e invece qui facevo la, come si chiamava, quella che ha fatto la nonna, eh chi si ricorda come si chiamava, comunque era una scuola che poi potevi andare all’università, e invece là no, non c’era, perciò non avevo nessuno che mi seguiva, che poi più che giocare non si faceva e finito l’anno mia mamma mi ha detto ‘Senti hai perso un anno, adesso ti metti e impari un mestiere’. Mi ha mandato dalla sarta a imparare a cucire poi da lei non mi piaceva perché lei mi faceva fare solo l’imbastitura e a me non andava, allora sono andata da un signore che era parrucchiere, sarto e parrucchiere e ho cominciato a fare i pantaloni, da allora in poi ho vissuto coi pantaloni in mano. Poi ho trovato una ditta, ditta Fraizzoli che all’epoca era il presidente dell’Inter così, e ho lavorato un po’, poi mia mamma quando siamo venuti in questa casa ha avuto un ictus, dovevo seguire mia mamma o chiamare la badante, o curarla io e allora anziché andare alla ditta a lavorare andavo a prendere il lavoro, venivo a casa col borsone pieno di pantaloni tagliati, facevo e tornavo là a portare i pantaloni fatti, fin che a quando a 56 anni sono andata in pensione. Finito la, andata in pensione, finito di fare i pantaloni ho iniziato a fare, come si chiama, aiuto, aiutatemi, come adesso che si va dai cinesi a fare riparazioni, ho cominciato a lavorare, fare riparazioni, lavoravo di più di quando facevo i pantaloni. E così curavo mia mamma e ho lavorato fino a che la nonna è arrivata a 91 anni e ha chiuso gli occhi ecco. Poi di punto in bianco mi è venuta una maculopatia che sono vent’anni che non ci vedo, adesso poi non ci vedo proprio più, vedo solo le cose, i vostri visi non li vedo, e poi, eh ancora ancora un po’, la Greta perché è qua un pochino più vicino, ma vedo solo, non tutto il viso, vedo una parte e basta, scrivere non riesco più, leggere mi avevano dato il video lettore, ho letto per qualche anno e adesso piano piano sul video vedo solo tre lettere dell’alfabeto e basta, e non riesco andare avanti, e sono qua tutto il giorno, non posso leggere non posso, non faccio un cavolo di niente, eh tutto qua.
ST: Volevo fare qualche domanda ancora se se la sente, volevo chiederle, quando lei andava a scuola o quando andava all’oratorio, le suore o le maestre, vi avevano spiegato a voi bambini dei bombardamenti, cosa bisognava fare, come scappare.
FM: No quando ero a scuola, beh a scuola io ormai ero già grandicella, avevamo imparato noi cosa fare, perché quando suonava l’allarme, se eravamo fuori a giocare per strada correvamo in cortile e che poi si sentiva bombardare perché cacchio, ci sono state delle serate o dei giorni che vedevi proprio che cadevano le bombe in città o fuori, anche quando eravamo fuori che eravamo a Prabiago [Parabiago], alla sera quando sentivamo i bombardamenti andavamo su al secondo piano per vedere i bombardamenti e capivamo dove le bombe cadevano, se era Milano o era più spostato, a momenti era, una cretinata lì a momenti sembrava un divertimento per noi, per noi ragazzi. No no ma quando suonava l’allarme scappava subito dentro il cortile, poi si vedeva subito se bombardavano vicino, un pochino più lontano, se era proprio vicino che vedevi proprio quei razzi lì che che madonna, sembrava che bruciavano dappertutto, e allora si, correvamo giù in rifugio, e andavamo avanti così. Io mi ricordo che avevo una, quando la mamma andava a lavorare, aveva là una borsettina, fa ‘Guarda che quando suona l’allarme che vai in cantina tira su quella borsettina qui che c’è dentro tutte le cose che abbiamo’. C’erano le cose d’oro che una catenina poche cose perché, mi hanno messo la catenina d’oro quando ho fatto la prima comunione, poi finita la cerimonia me l’hanno tolta, eh ho fatto la fotografia con la catenina d’oro ma non era mia, me l’ha, me l’ha messa la mia madrina, quando è finito che sono andata a casa mi hanno tolto la catenina d’oro, potevi fare a meno di metterla, no? Cosa me ne fregava a me della catenina d’oro. Ecco qua.
ST: E un’altra cosa, mi ha detto che suo papà e altri uomini della casa andavano a controllare se il solaio e tutto erano.
FM: Sul solaio cadevano i i razzi, perché se ti cadeva solo un razzo sul sul tetto che riusciva a bucarlo, sotto noi avevamo, come vi dicevo prima, il solaio, era solaio per tutto [?] ogni famiglia aveva il suo pezzo di solaio, che non avevamo il riscaldamento, non avevamo neanche l’acqua a momenti, perché dovevamo andare giù in cortile a tirare la tromba per portar su l’acqua. Io mi sono sposata non avevo il bagno perché io ho abitato sempre là in cooperativa, adesso abito qua ma questo è il terzo, è il terzo appartamento che cambio in 74 anni della mia vita sempre qua. Ma là quando mi sono sposata io nel ’54 non avevamo l’acqua in casa, l’acqua era sulla ringhiera, sulla ringhiera c’erano i tre gabinetti per quattro famiglie, e l’acqua dovevi andar giù a prenderla in cortile che poi dopo pochi, pochi mesi che mi ero sposata hanno messo l’acqua sulla sulla sulla ringhiera in fondo almeno avevamo l’aqua ghei [?] ma non avevamo i bangi, se avevi bisogno dovevi andare lì sulla sulla ringhiera che c’erano tre, tre gabinetti, e avevi la tua tua catena, c’era sempre quella che puliva più degli altri perché, e niente poi han fabbricato lì in piazza Scolari, son venuta via di lì, son andata di qua, lì almeno c’era tutto, il bagno e il riscaldamento.
ST: E il rifugio invece come era fatto, il rifugio dove vi nascondevate?
FM: Alto tutto coi pali sotto, legno per terra, coi pali infilati dentro e tutte le panchine lì di legno, e non lo so però se se cadeva una bomba lì, non lo so. Però una volta mia mamma con mio fratello quello più piccolo, che avevo un altro fratello, eeh m’ha portato la cascina, la cascinella che adesso non si chiama più neanche cascinella perché adesso han costruito, ma lì c’erano degli ortolani, dei, e avevano fatto un rifugio nel prato, nel campo, hanno scavato un po’ e poi ha fatto, messo lì tutto un mucchio di terra, non so come come l’han fatta perché ci stava una ventina di persone, han fatto lì sto, e allora una notte mia mamma m’ha detto ‘Dai, dai che andiamo lì alla cascinella, dai siamo più sicuri’. Mamma abbiam fatto la strada da lì alla cascinella, quanti razzi che venivan giù, mama io andavo con gli occhi chiusi, piangevo, avevo paura, c’era mio fratello che mi prendeva sotto braccio ‘Dai dai chiudi gli occhi che ti tengo io’ tutto di corsa per arrivare là in sto rifugio. Ma però era bruttissimo vedere tutti sti razzi che venivano giù, sembrava che ti colpissero, tutti sti rossi, cosi rossi, madonna dì ma di ma chi, madonna gente scusate ma, vedete se ho un bicchiere qualcosa, no ma fu quello lì [unclear].
ST: Volevo chiederle, lei e i suoi fratelli quando eravate nel rifugio durante i bombardamenti, come passavate le ore lì nel rifugio.
FM: Guarda dipende da come era anche sopra. Perché se era una cosa grande che sentivi proprio le bombe cadere allora ti, noi bambini, cominciavi a piangere e va beh, o se no c’era quella che cominciava a dire il rosario, poi c’era quell’altro che diceva altre, altri rosari, e niente si stava lì poi quando si calmava un po’ che arrivava giù mio papà o quell’altro ragazzo, perché bisognava fare tutto il giro, veniva giù, l’impressione di vedere la la maschera antigas sempre al collo e poi aveva la, qualcosa per spegnerlo, per spegnere se c’era un piccolo, un piccolo incendio, e insomma, tante volte era anche un, non un divertimento per colpa, però insomma quando sei bambini con qualsiasi cretinata ti diverti. Ma bello quando quando si sapeva, quando, perché qui a Trenno è stato ucciso uno, che era uno di qui ma era un fascistone proprio, lo uccisero lì avanti della cascina, come gl’era [?], è stato ucciso lì, immaginarsi tutti che andavano a vedere, mia mamma ‘Non penserai di andare a vedere, te stai qui’ e non son andata, però il via vai che c’era, mamma, è stato ucciso dai partigiani, e lì uno contro l’altro, eravamo fratelli ma eravamo uno contro l’altro. E quando sentivamo la sirena, però c’era dei ragazzi, c’era il Franco Curzani, quello là ha la mia età, dopo, non tonto perché non posso dire che era tonto, ma lui voleva farsi farsi vedere che lui era bravo e usciva sulla strada e stava là con le braccia ‘Sparate! Sparate, io sono qua’ ‘Ma sei cretino veh?!’ a gu dit ‘Ma se ti attiva davvero un, un?’ ‘Ma no, ma non mi prendono’ e allora gu dì ‘Entra vieni dento, non fare il cretino, lì te, stai lì ad aspettare che cade davvero qualcosa’. Comunque, comunque è stato davvero un periodo da cane proprio, mah.
ST: Quando.
FM: Sì sì, me papà, ha fatto la sua bella, bella, ne avevamo anche là noi in cooperativa di persone, c’erano i Gripa [?] che faceva la, il bidello a, ai Boschetti. Ah ma quello lì ce c’aveva su con mio papà, meno male che non si è mai permesso di picchiare mi papà perché se si permetteva glielo faceva vedere mio fratello chi era.
ST: Quando è iniziata la guerra, quando sono iniziati i bombardamenti, suo papà le ha spiegato cosa stava succedendo, con chi era in guerra l’Italia?
FM: No, ai tempi i genitori non si mettevano, no i genitori erano presi a lavorare a fare qualcosa, mio papà andava via la mattina, faceva il puntatore, nella quando voi non lo sapete perché i puntatori di adesso, adesso fanno tutto coi tubi, invece mio papà mi ricordo quando hanno fatto l’albergo in piazza [pause], quel, il primo grattacelo che han fatto a Milano, adesso non dirmi dove perché non mi ricordo più, e mio papà faceva il puntatore, vuol dire che andavano su coi pali, come i pali della luce di legno e dovevano inchiodarli tutto uno uno. Di fatti mio papà aveva i pantaloni che mia mamma gli aveva fatto una una tasca qua grande di rinforzo per avere i chiodi a portata di mano, e mano a mano andava su e si chiamava puntatore. E io mi ricordo di quel, di quel lavoro lì, com’era com’era fatto perché non riuscivo a capire quando mio papà mi diceva ‘Ma io devo salire, devo salire’ e non sapevo fino a dove poteva andare. E allora mi ricordo che una volta, allora non era ancora cominciata la guerra non so se può interessare, e mi ha portato a fare una visita e m’ha detto ‘Dai siamo qui, andiamo in centro, andiamo a vedere, ti faccio vedere dove lavora papà’. E allora siamo venuti, madonna il, quel, che piassa l’è, non mi ricordi più, beh insomma siamo arrivati lì, mia mamma è andata a parlare con quel capo lì noi e allora sento che mi dice ‘Cià vieni vieni che chiamiamo tuo papà’ e allora si mette col megafono a gridare e chiamare il Maggioni ‘Maggiun!’ in milanese ‘Maggiun! Maggiun!’ e mio papà che rispons ‘Ste gh’è!’ ‘Vin giò! Vin giò che gh’è chi la tua miè con la tua tosa, vin giò!’ ‘Arrivo’. Ho visto mio papà che scendeva da questi pali attaccato come il tarzan e scendeva attaccato al palo è arrivato giù, eh. È stata una soddisfazione enorme vedere mio papà e così ho capito cosa voleva dire puntatore, ecco. Son tante cose ma non è che avessero il tempo di spiegarci, sì dopo quando ho cominciato ad andare a scuola, però non è che ti spiegavano tante cose come adesso.
ST: Quindi quando.
FM: Dai dai partigiani ai fascisti così, ormai ne sapevi perché tramite, perché la radio non ce l’avevo, io la radio l’ho avuta nel, dunque mi son sposata nel ’54, nel ’50 o ’51 il primo anno che c’è stato la la, chi ha vinto la la, che ha vinto la, come se chama, aspetta eh, sì, aveva la, prima, il primo, aiutami, quello che incomincerà la settimana prossima o è già incominciato, quello dei cantanti, delle canzoni.
ST: San Remo?
FM: San Remo, ecco la radio me l’hanno comperata quell’anno, il primo anno di San Remo che mi ricordo che ero là appoggiata alla radio, c’era mio papà e mia mamma a letto e io in cucina appoggiata per tenerla bassa bassa che c’era la la, quella che spiegava gli abiti che avevano su le ragazze e i ragazzi mama ecco guarda, è stata una una gioia immensa avere la radio. Perciò l’è no che i noster genitour, beh ci saranno stati anche quelli che avevano più possibilità, ma il papà e la mamma quando era sera andavano a dormire. E io anche quando avevo otto o nove anni che la mamma, mia mamma faceva la magliaia con la macchina però quando aveva poco che c’era lavoro in campagna andava in campagna. E prima di andare in campagna io sapevo già che quando tornavo avevo il mio centrino sul tavolo pronto per lavorare, per ricamare, perché avevo imparato dalle suore, ero piccola però prima, primo andavo giù a giocare perché in cortile avevamo il gioco delle bocce perché il nostro cortile là era grande, era bello, e ci divertivamo lì a giocare, un po’ con le bocce un po’ senza bocce, poi quando mancava, sapevo che mancava circa mezz’ora o un pochino di più, andavo di sopra mi sedevo sul mio seggiolino col mio centrino in mano, facevo vedere alla nonna che ho lavorato tanto, e quel centrino lì ce l’ho dentro ancora nel cassetto, tutto rotto, tutto mezzo rotto, e non lo butterò via fino a quando sarò morta che me li butten [sic] via gli altri, fa vedere quanti anni è durato quel centrino lì. Però quando la mamma entrava in casa ‘T’ho detto di fare questo!’ ‘Eh vabbeh mamma son stata giù un momento’. Erano sberloni che si prendevano eh, e tante volte che io mi rendevo conto che le avrei dovute prendere, cosa facevo, io andavo in gabinetto, in gabinetto mi chiudevo dentro e aspettavo che arrivava mio papà. Perché quando sentivo la pedana che faceva le scale mio papà, perché ormai riconoscevo le pedane di tutti, i passi di tutti. Quando mio papà arrivava io uscivo e andavo in casa. ‘Nana fa la brava’ ‘Sì sì papà’. Se la mia mamma faceva finta di, le ciapava lè non mì, ecco perciò la sera si arrivava, e arrivavano e quando aveva mangiato mio papà scendeva in cortile e portava su due secchi, prima andava in cooperativa a bere il suo bicchierino, poi usciva, riempiva due secchi d’acqua e se li portava su, e poi andava a letto, la giornata era finita e il mattino si ricominciava.
ST: E lei si era fatta una idea di, durante la guerra di chi fossero i soldati che vi bombardavano?
FM: Ah beh lo sapevamo che erano inglesi, perché tedeschi li avevamo qui, [unclear] chissà perché anche adesso coi tedeschi non mi vanno né davanti né dietro.
ST: E di quei, di quei soldati che vi bombardavano lei cosa pensava all’epoca?
FM: Eh no, noi quei momenti lì noi eravamo bambini, bambini, ragazzine, eh cosa vuoi pensare, io avevo paura ‘Adesso se mi bombardano poi la mia casa non ce l’ho più’. Ecco si pensava, tante volte si pensava questo, magari c’era l’altro che diceva ‘Ma no, con tutti i giocattoli che ho in casa’ eh oddio ‘E invece io non ho niente, non mi rompono niente perché c’ho solo la bambola di pezza che mi ha fatto la nonna’. Perché quel giorno, guarda, questo qui della bambola di pezza è un altro dicordo di quella sera, di quella sera che siamo andati nel rifugio là alla cascinella, che avevo mio fratello che aveva, poi era del ’27 perciò era già più grande di me, e e io piangevo ‘Eh ma dopo arriva, se arriva però quando, quando poi dopo arriva Gesù Bambino che mi porta la bambola (perché allora era Gesù Bambino che portava i giochi, i doni non era Babbo Natale, Babbo Natale è arrivato dopo) e Babbo Natale mi porta Gesù, mi porta il dono, mi porta la bambola, e lui cretino mi dice ‘Stai tranquilla che non è Babbo Natale, che non è Gesù Bambino che ti porta i doni, è la mamma, e la mamma non c’ha i soldi per prenderti la bambola’. A voi sembra una cosa normale che in una notte così, una sera così, piangevo già per la paura, lui mi disse che era la mamma. E allora la mamma cos’ha fatto, piano piano mi ha fatto m’ha fatto lei una bambola di pezza, è durata una vita, e poi non so più dove è andata a finire, e non, non me lo ricordo, basta. Comunque quell’anno lì ho avuto la mia bambola di pezza ed era anche bella, mia mamma poi era brava con la. Niente non so ancora cosa vi posso dire.
ST: Per noi è stata, va benissimo così è stata davvero interessante.
FM: Ah si.
ST: Ci ha detto cose davvero davvero interessanti per noi.
FM: Dovevamo lavorare, voi invece avete trovato tutto piano, tutto pianato eh, gradini già pronti da salire, eh.
ST: Aggiungo che durante l’intervista nella stanza è presenti anche Erica, Greta Fedele, nipote della signora, e Zeno Gaiaschi dell’associazione Lapsus.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Fausta Maggioni
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Creator
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Sara Troglio
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2016-12-03
Contributor
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Francesca Campani
Format
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00:43:27 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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AMaggioniF161203
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy
Type
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Fausta Maggioni recalls memories of her wartime life in Milan. She describes a sizeable shelter reinforced with wooden props, a little bag with the few valuables she had always to bring along, as well as the many duties of her father as warden, who checked the attic for incendiaries and bombs with a gas mask and small fire extinguisher. Emphasises how air raid precautions were informally learned and how sometimes children remain at home watching the bombing, guessing the points of impact. Describes emotions swinging from excitement to fear, people reciting the rosary or other prayers and stresses the fear of losing her treasured toys. Recollects a bombing at school, the dash to the shelter among incendiaries, target indicators, and how she stumbled upon three armed boys and the subsequent runoff to home. Recollects the gruesome sight of corpses at the entrance of the Mosucco cemetery and a fire exchange between fascists and partisans in which two men were killed. She describes the war as a fratricidal struggle between young men who had no other choice than being called up or join the partisans. Recalls an example of a young man’s bravado who remained in the middle of the street yelling 'Fire! I’m here'. Remembers German troops retreating, as well as the elation of her father, a man of the socialist persuasion, on hearing of Mussolini’s hanging. Gives an account of her post-war life: his father toiling as a construction worker, her job as a seamstress, the first radio set she had, her first home with a bathroom, and a doll handcrafted by her mother.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
animal
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
faith
fear
home front
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
Resistance
shelter
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/446/7911/ABozziF170712.1.mp3
7231d73624122158e1222380cee96971
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bozzi, Francesco
Francesco Bozzi
F Bozzi
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Francesco Bozzi who recollects his wartime experiences in Greece and in the Po River valley area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bozzi, F
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Francesco Bozzi
Description
An account of the resource
Francesco Bozzi reminisces about his military training followed by service in Greece. Describes harsh living conditions while in Germany-occupied Crete after September 1943: hard labour, scarce food, punishment, brutalities, being wounded while digging a tunnel, bombings, and Allied attacks of Italian convoys packed with soldiers. Describes being hospitalised in Italy and mentions the disruption of transport, destroyed bridges, strafing, and aggressive behaviour of partisans. Mentions a cache of arms discovered by chance after the war.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
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2017-07-12
Format
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00:29:20 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Greece
Greece--Crete
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Identifier
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ABozziF170712
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
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Pending OH transcription
bombing
forced labour
Resistance
strafing
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/3/6/ANocchieriF170202.2.mp3
b83e3fdf3e05eaa55090f4da0746ef37
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Nocchieri, Franco
Franco Nocchieri
F Nocchieri
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Franco Nocchieri, who recollects his wartime experiences in Pavia and Voghera.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2017-02-02
Identifier
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Nocchieri, F
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Andi Filippo e sto per intervistare Franco Nocchieri. Siamo a Gropello Cairoli in provincia di Pavia, è il 2 febbraio 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Nocchieri per aver permesso questa intervista. E’ inoltre presente all’intervista Carlo Intropido, amico dell’intervistato. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Nocchieri, vuole raccontarci la sua esperienza durante il periodo, diciamo della Seconda Guerra Mondiale?
GN: Sì, sì, Allora, esperienza della guerra, vediamo un po’. Posso cominciare da Casteggio. A Casteggio c’è una zona che si chiama il Pistornile e là c’è, c’era, penso che ci sia ancora, un istituto o un orfanotrofio, giusto? Quando c’era la guerra io sono stato lì, da ragazzino, proprio, no. Il problema, il problema qui è, era la fame, lì si soffriva proprio la fame era fame, perché sia a mezzogiorno come la sera, patate in brodo. Una scodellina di alluminio, perché adesso non è di alluminio, no, tant’è che l’alluminio veniva su con roba bollente, no. Mezzogiorno, sera, patate, e noi altri ragazzini, era talmente la fame che scavalcavamo il muro eccetera eccetera e andavamo a rubare il fondo del, il crostone, così in dialetto, della verza, non il crostone dentro la verza ma quello proprio, per far la fame, per eh. E sì, poi qui, siccome poi, sì, era ormai iniziata la guerra no, c’erano ancora i materassi con dentro, come si chiama quel coso lì, del, del, le pannocchie, come si chiamava quelle cose lì? La, la.
CI: Il granturco.
FN: Del granoturco, la pannocchia. Allora i materassi erano fatti con quello, ecco.
CI: Ah.
FN: Lo sai, io non lo so, penso, cioè eh. Comunque. E poi in questo istituto c’era il problema della notte per le cimici. C’erano tante di quelle cimici che ogni tanto cercavano di pulire un dormitorio di cento ragazzini. Che, ogni tanto, cercavano di pulire e col martello picchiavano sui letti e volavano giù tutta una striscia di cimici [laughs] e veniva poi pulito con lo zolfo. Mettevano lo zolfo in mezzo a questo camerone, lo bruciavano e, e poi ritornavano, ecco questa era la vita di allora. Questo in grosso modo, no. Casteggio. Perché, e no, tu non puoi parlare perché se parlate così, mi fa le domande lui forse io vado più avanti no, perché sono stato lì, perché ero stato preso, adottato da una persona, che era un po’ matto, allora non si guardava tanto, adesso per adottare un bambino, per dire, c’è una burocrazia che ti, taccate al tram, beh sai una volta andavi al nido qui a Pavia e o bene o male prendevi un bambino e te lo portavi a casa. E io sono finito così uno che aveva poi, eh, che aveva l’osteria che poi racconto man mano vado avanti no, ecco. Ed ero andato a finire quel, quello lì di quell’osteria a Reggio, come lo chiamavano. Siccome era un donnaiolo, aveva l’osteria no e per liberarsi di me mi metteva negli istituti. Dopo mi veniva a prendere a secondo i suoi giri così. Beh, questo era la’, poi c’è, andiamo a Voghera, Voghera, qui incomincia sempre in un orfanotrofio cui ero e qui la scuola, una volta facevano, venivano promossi quelli che agli insegnanti davano il salame e invece io a Voghera mi avevano promosso in base ai bombardamenti, no. Cioè, ero in un istituto, proprio in fondo di Voghera, era una scuola professionale che era davanti alla stazione, giusto? Voghera. Non mi ricordo più come si chiama quella lì, niente. Eh beh, andavo in quella scuola. Però di scuola ne ho fatta pochissima perché come partivamo dall’istituto, eravamo quattro cinque ragazzi, beh, quando andavamo in istituto, quando eravamo a metà strada suonava l’allarme. E noi eravamo contenti, perché invece di, invece di andare a scuola andavamo in giro per la strada a giocare, ma però, quando suonava l’allarme, a scuola non si entrava. Quindi quasi tutti i giorni era così, di conseguenza, un giorno di scuola, un giorno sotto i bombardamenti. Perchè lì bombardavano per ore, non hanno mai preso la scuola, ma gli aerei hanno incominciato a rompere le scatole. E invitavano di andare nei rifugi ma io come ragazzino, noi ragazzini ci guardavamo bene dall’andare nei rifugi. Quando arrivavano gli aerei così, per noi era tutto un, eravamo quasi contenti perché vedevamo questi aerei [makes a noise] e che, questo Voghera. Naturalmente il problema della fame, a Voghera io non l’avevo perché nell’istituto bene o male si mangiava. Poi avevo una tessera del pane falsa, ma o bene o male con la tessera del pane, ma insomma, con il mangiare o bene o male ce la cavavamo, tempo di guerra. E poi, e poi dove incomincio, boh, dove, dove, ecco, allora. Io abitavo nel paese Campospinoso Albaredo, sai dov’è? Campospinoso Albaredo è stato proprio la mia vita fino a quando è finita la guerra, no. Dunque, di Campospinoso Albaredo posso dire per esempio quando arrivavano i tedeschi, che arrivavano con cannoni, mitragliatrici, su carri trainati da cavalli, ma tanto belli e grossi, e passavano e noi ragazzi tutti contenti perché vedevamo tutte ste cose qua. Poi, ah, nel paese, lì a Campospinoso Albaredo la fame non c’era proprio come paese perché le uova o bene o male c’erano. Poi c’era un macellaio che uccideva tutte le settimane la sua mucca poi c’era chi uccideva il maiale, l’unico problema sì a volte mancava la carne, lo zucchero però si salvava coi gatti, lì i gatti ne giravano ben pochi perché mi ricordo io che mangiavamo i gatti come si mangiava un coniglio in tempo di guerra. In tempo di guerra era un po’ spinoso beh! E i tedeschi non hanno mai mai mai mai disturbato per la verità eh, passavano poi avevano fatto una specie di accampamento ma lasciavano vivere. [pauses] Dunque più che i tedeschi davano fastidio i repubblicani, i fascisti, quello lì sì, i repubblicani, durante, io parlo perché ero dentro, in un’osteria no, qui facevano da mangiare eccetera eccetera, lì quando era mezzogiorno mi pare sì, c’era il giornale radio che parlava il Duce e bisognava alzarsi in piedi. Se uno non si alzava in piedi intanto che c’era il telegiornale erano guai seri. Potevi essere prelevato dai fascisti, prelevato e andavi a finire a Villa Triste Broni e lì, beh, lo sai, potevi sparire completamente, no? quello lì. Dunque, ah, sì. I tedeschi, i tedeschi, eh dunque, i tedeschi, c’era l’osteria, l’unica volta che hanno dato fastidio è che sono venuti lì a cena una sera, erano una qundicina o più, hann cenato, tutti armati eh! Han cenato lì eccetera, poi hanno incominciato a bere, si sono scaldati un po’, eh me lo ricordo proprio, ero un ragazzino insomma no, ecco, e a un bel momento si sono levati proprio tutti tutti proprio nudi come dio li ha creati, tutti eh, e hanno cominciato a cantare e bere, cantare e bere, così sono andati avanti per un po’, poi sono scesi in una, c’era una cantina grossa sotto nella osteria, sono scesi in quella cantina lì e hanno aperto tutti i rubinetti delle botti, io ero terrorizzato perché poi dopo il Risù cher era quello che mi aveva preso in adozione era andato a dormire e m’ha lasciato da solo. Io ero terrorizzato, non tanto per i tedeschi ma ero terrorizzato da questo Risù perché poi alla mattina le botte erano tutte mie, no? Comunque hanno fatto un disastro, se ne sono presi e sono andati. L’unica cosa, no, no, no, loro non hanno pagato, no no, hanno mangiato e hanno bevuto e tutto, continuavano a ballare per l’osteria, lì così nudi nudi, poi sono andati alcuni nudi hanno preso il loro fucile e se ne sono andati e buonanotte suonatori. Che avevano un accampamento lì. Però nel paese poi era arrivato il terrore, c’è stato un momento che era arrivato il terrore dei mongoli. Perché si diceva che erano arrivati i mongoli che prendevano le donne, via eccetera. E il paese c’è stato una volta che era stato terrorizzato per questo, che c’erano, che erano poi, erano arrivati alla frazione lì attorno, non mi ricordo più le frazioni, per andare a San Cipriano giù di lì, c’erano delle cascine e questi mongoli, che erano arrivati insieme ai tedeschi, li chiamavano mongoli, poi io non so se erano mongoli, quel che erano. Andiamo avanti. Il pericolo soprattutto in questa osteria era Radio Londra perché c’era il Risù così che non era un fascista, no, e lui riceveva, tramite Radio Londra, e poi trasmetteva ai partigiani, tutto di nascosto. Io ero lì e di notte lui accendeva Radio Londra e l’ascoltava, io ascoltavo, ma eh, però era, di quello io avevo paura, seppure come bambino in sostanza, capivo e avevo paura perché se ti prendevano mentre ascoltavi Radio Londra ti fucilavano sul posto lì, non c’era via di scampo. Dunque, poi andiamo avanti. I tedeschi quando poi c’è stata quasi il fine della guerra, i tedeschi si ritiravano no e come erano andati giù tornavano indietro coi carri coi cannoni e allora c’era un ordine quasi tacito di non disturbare e di lasciarli andare, a lasciare passare perché poi hanno cominciato i partigiani e dei partigiani avevamo paura che disturbassero queste colonne, no, allora anche quelli i tedeschi avrebbero reagito e allora come tacito passavano zitto lì eccetera. Mentre invece poi qui al Ponte della Becca tre o quattro cinque partigiani, quello sono testimone, hanno arrestato un cento o più di tedeschi perché si sono messi d’accordo mentre i tedeschi si erano raggruppati lì, prima del Ponte della Becca, a Campospinoso andando giù verso Pavia, Tornello, è il paese, Tornello, subito dopo Tornello si sono piazzati i tedeschi e quattro cinque partigiani hanno fatto del fracasso, cioè quattro cinque, uno qui, uno là, uno là, uno sparava, l’altro dava ordini, l’altro così, e invece erano solo quattro, cinque. I tedeschi si sono spaventati e si sono arresi quattro, cinque uomini, in sostanza, no. Andiamo avanti. Oh, poi arriva, ah beh sì, quando ero ragazzino c’era il Balilla [laughs] c’era il Balilla che il Risù, sempre quello che mi adottava, non ne voleva sapere, di fatti io sono stato uno dei fortunati che non ha messo su perché era obbligatorio mettere su la divisa con tutte ste’ cose, i ragazzini ci tenevano, non perché erano fascisti ma da ragazzini avere una divisa così, poi, invece io sono stato esonerato però io ero, c’era la sede dei fascisti era proprio a fianco della osteria dove, che l’osteria era responsabile di quel locale, un grande salone, che poi, finito la guerra è servito come balera insomma, no, e lì c’era una biblioteca con diversi fucili e la biblioteca io prendevo i libri, mi piaceva leggere, no, libri del Salgari allora eh, e poi i fucili, mi divertivo con i fucili, li prendevo, andavo fuori nell’orto, sparare così, racconto cose così, siccome hai detto di raccontare e io racconto quel che mi viene in mente, no, poi comincia la Radio Londra l’ho detto no? . Ecco, per cominciare la, i bombardamenti, ecco, qui sì, dunque. Bombardamenti io mi ricordo che incominciavano a arrivare i caccia quattro cinque caccia, facevano un bordello di quei bordelli, ma come quando passano quelli aerei supersonici, lì, i Tornado, ecco, era quel rumore lì, ne arrivavano quattro cinque insieme, tutti [unclear] e arrivavano all’improvviso no e giravano sempre intorno a il Ponte della Becca, prendevano verso Pavia ah, eh non mi ricordo più, beh, c’era un posto che era una polveriera, una polveriera grossa, adesso sono tutte case, non so se sai dov’è, allora, passi il Ponte della Becca, vai avanti, poi c’è la strada, beh insomma è un punto che c’è una grande curva che poi sono ritrovati arrivi a Pavia il [unclear], una volta era Darsu, una grande curva, la strada che va giù, una grande curva, orca, non mi ricordo più i nomi, prendi la cartina e vedi. Beh, adesso son tutti villette, case, lì c’era la polveriera, e questi caccia giravano intorno al Ponte della Becca e a quella polveriera lì perché lì i tedeschi avevano messo giù la contraerea e la contraerea, quando arrivavano i caccia, sparava ma poi un bel momento i caccia lo facevano tacere [laughs] mi sono spiegato, se no, sì, piombavano e bombardavano anche, no. Per esempio, il Ponte della Becca l’hanno bombardato un centinaio di volte, l’hanno mai buttato giù, lo foravano, l’hanno buttato giù i caccia l’ultimo giorno di guerra. E allora sono andati giù, hann buttato giù i piloni di là, un pilone e una volta sul Ponte della Becca io giravo con la bicicletta e avevo un’anguria di dietro. Venivo verso Broni e l’hann bombardato io c’ero sopra, l’hann bucato però non mi sono fatto niente. Ho portato a casa un anguria intera [laughs]. Ponte della Becca. Arrivano i caccia. Quando i caccia erano riusciti a fare tacere l’artiglieria, allora arrivavano i bombardieri. Arrivavano parecchi, no, quattro cinque qui, quattro cinque là, avevano un rumore poi anche strano, una cosa e lì lanciavano giù le bombe sul Ponte della Becca, sul, su quella polveriera lì e sul Ponte del Ticino e noi ragazzi dei genitori non ce ne siamo neanche accorti dalle case perché i caccia mitragliavano eh, non scherzavano mica, facevano di quelle mitragliate e noi invece fuori a guardare perché era, ci piaceva vedere, no. Erano tremendi quei, quelli lì, quei caccia lì erano americani, non so qual’è, però erano anche cattivi perché per esempio correvano dietro a chi andava in bicicletta. Se vedevano una bicicletta sulla strada, quella la facevano fuori. C’era uno lì che era un sordomuto che andava in giro con un carretto con i buoi, carro con i buoi no, ma lui non sentiva, andava tranquillo [laughs]. L’hanno fatto fuori, proprio. Erano tremendi eh! Sparavano, andavano di quà, li sentivi e vedevi proprio le mitragliate che se vedevano sulla strada era verso sempre le quattro, tre e mezza, le quattro, se vedevano qualcuno sulla strada, quello aveva finito di vivere. I caccia, i bombardieri no, i bombardieri buttavano giù le loro bombe poi le vedevi poi eh, poi se ne andavano e via. Tutti i giorni, più o meno tutti i giorni, ma per un bel po’ eh. La polveriera l’hann fatta saltare parecchie volte che poi da Campospinoso Albaredo si vedevano proprio le fiamme, che venivano su, le botte via eccetera no. Eh, sempre in fatto di bombardamenti, il Pippo, famoso Pippo, no, che, quello proprio l’ho vissuto in pieno io, il famoso Pippo, no, che arrivava lì, lì le luci, se vedevano un lumino era, era, [laughs], e il Pippo arrivava alla sera sempre a un certo orario e buttava giù, questo lo posso testimoniare bene, buttava giù degli oggetti come delle navi, ne avevo una io, navi in miniatura, ma belle eh, io ne avevo una, disinnescata me l’avevano, erano proprio anche fatte bene, oppure aeroplanini oppure penne stilografiche e naturalmente Pippo le buttava giù, no, oltre che prendere le luci, se vedeva una luce, un lucino, appena appena, si accendeva un fiammifero, quello lì lo vedeva, era tremendo e buttava giù sti oggetti e noi naturalmente da ragazzini incoscienti andavamo a raccoglierli. Poi siamo stati avvisati che. Comunque c’è stato, questo lo racconto perché mi è sempre poi rimasto anche in mente. C’è stato un ragazzino della mia età no, eravamo sempre in gruppo, no, e ha raccolto un bordello di queste cose qui. Non sapevamo ancora che avevano questo effetto e ha raccolto e si è messo nella testa di andare a pescare. Buttandole dentro secondo noi, no, buttandole scoppiavano. E difatti siamo andati in riva al Po e io non so qui e lì sempre ci siamo sparsi per venire ed il pesce così così, lui è rimasto da solo e buttava dentro queste cose qui. E poi un bel momento una è scoppiata, l’ha fatto scoppiare queste, l’han raccolto su col cucchiaio quel ragazzino lì. E’ scoppiato anche lui, tutto un. Bene. Disgrazia vuole che fanno il funerale a questo ragazzo, tutto una fila, il paese Campospinoso aveva, c’era una strada dritta che andava a Baselica, un paesino lì, una frazione, un paesino, allora era una frazione, dove c’era il cimitero. Su quella strada lì vuoi mica dire che arriva, che arrivi i caccia proprio mentre c’è il funerale un fuggi fuggi generale nei fossi hanno mitragliato la cassa perché poi non c’erano i carri, la macchina, quando facevano un funerale portavano tutto a spalla no, e quello che avevano, portavano in spalla sto ragazzino che poi c’era dentro della carne tutta maciullata l’hann messo giù, preso in mezzo alla strada, son scappati nei fossi, hanno mitragliato anche la cassa, l’hann forata in un modo, una mitragliata di quelle lì, no, quando sono andati via poi hanno continuato il funerale con tutta sta cassa rotta. Mah, niente. Ecco questa, la storia, questa era del Pippo. Dunque, ecco, quindi, maciullato durante il funerale. Ponte Becca, dunque, poi io non so cosa devo raccontare ancora, fame no, della Becca. Ah sì, io, per mangiare, io come ragazzino sempre su ordine di quel pazzo, io lo chiamo pazzo, mi mandava a prendere il formaggio ad Albuzzano. Albuzzano c’era uno che aveva, allevava maiali, aveva una specie, faceva del formaggio, il burro, e io, ecco da Campospinoso andavo in bicicletta ad Albuzzano. Però io ero sempre terrorizzato perché alla fine del Ponte della Becca c’erano sempre lì i tedeschi che fermavano tutti, chi era in bicicletta magari gliela portavano via e io passavo lì col zaino e [pauses] non mi hanno mai fe rmato né niente e che quando tornavo col zaino dietro, con il formaggio, specie di formaggio, il formaggio, il burro eccetera, quelle cose lì, avevo il terrore che mi fermassero, non tanto il terrore dei tedeschi quanto per il Risù, quello lì era il motivo che poi prendevo un bordello di botte perché avevo avevo preso tante, se la prendeva con me mica coi tedeschi quello lì, ecco. Non mi hanno mai fermato, sono sempre passato avanti e indietro, quasi tutte le settimane con la mia scorta di formaggio, me la sono cavata così. Andiamo avanti. Ecco, poi allora qui siamo già [pauses] per tenere, c’era andavo a Stradella con la bicicletta a prendere il ghiaccio perché allora per tenere fresca la roba c’erano dei piccoli frigoriferi, scatoloni, mettevi dentro il ghiaccio e sempre con il pericolo dei caccia eh, perché, però me la sono sempre cavata fuori. Poi, vediamo un pò, andiamo avanti, eh!, E poi comincia la, i partigiani. Dunque, nei partigiani, è successo che, era tutto su lì, Cigognola, sulle zone, , sulle colline di Broni, no, Cigognola, tutti quei posti lì, partigiani del paese, ero andato su a fare il partigiano, no, però l’inverno [laughs] faceva freddo e sulle colline non vivevo e allora sono ritornato al paese, c’era un segretario che si chiamava podestà, podestà, era una brava persona e invece di farli, arrestare è andato d’accordo con i tedeschi in modo che, hanno, c’era, hanno organizzato la Todt, si chiamava la Todt, per fare le trincee sull’argine del Po, che era divertimento per noi ragazzi perché ci andavamo dentro poi a giocare, no, e hann fatto la Todt tutti sti giovani sono andati lì se la sono cavata fuori, però poi sono saltati fuori i fascisti, quelli sono diventati pericolosi più, ma di un bel po’ più dei tedeschi che poi era venuto un po’ anche l’odio, sai com’è, no. C’è stato un giorno che io ero a Broni e tornavo verso il paese. Quando sono arrivato davanti al cimitero di Broni, quattro cinque partigiani, no, fascisti, fascisti, quattro cinque fascisti mi, m’hann fermato, ero ragazzino, mi hanno fermato e mi hanno detto: ’Vieni, vieni qui perché tu sarai testimonio di quello che facciamo’. E lì c’era la ferrovia, sotto lì c’era la ferrovia, c’erano, cosa sarà stato, una quindicina di giovanotti, vero, e quattro e quattr’otto li hanno uccisi tutti e io ho visto, proprio visto, no, che coi mitra, lo Sten, avevano lo Sten loro, una specie di mitra che era lo Sten, tutto vuoto così, li hann fucilati e ‘adesso tu vai in paese e avvisi che noi abbiamo fatto questo’ e io sono andato in paese e ho detto: ’guarda, i hanno fatto questo e questo’. E c’erano dentro dei giovanotti del paese di Campospinoso Albaredo quello, che quello mi è rimasto impresso anche quello. Dunque, poi, e poi basta [pauses] e adesso io più o meno io ho raccontato quello che mi è venuto in mente poi non lo so, adesso sta a voi farmi le domande.
FA: Come, vuole dirci come si chiamava quello che lei chiama Risù, di nome?
FN: Ah, beh è morto, sì, Bruschi Alessandro. Quello lì, sì, era tremendo quello lì, è stato proprio il mio carnefice sotto un certo aspetto, no, poi dopo io un bel momento quando sono arrivato a quindici anni non ce l’ho più fatta.
CI: Fiorentini non l’hai mai visto?
FN: Fiorentini?
CI: Fiorentini, la belva, quello che comandava?
FN: Ah, sì, sì, ecco, questo potevo, questo era di Varzi, quello lì, o no? Bravo, quello l’ho visto. Cioè l’hanno fatto passare per il paese di Broni anche dentro una gabbia con un carro tirato dai buoi fino a Pavia e lui era dentro e naturalmente quando passava per il paese chi con l’ombrello, chi sputava, chi, quello l’ho visto sì. Fiorentini deve essere stato. Sì, sì, sì, sì. Poi dopo tutto questo, questo Risù, quando sono arrivato a quindici anni, poi non ce l’ho più fatta perché lui, lui picchiava sempre, no, e allora mi sono ribellato e sono scappato, via. Lui ha chiamato i carabinieri, carabinieri sono venuti da me, ma io detto: ’quello non è mio padre, se mi portate indietro poi io scappo ancora’. E i carabinieri allora, si sono fatti vedere una volta, non mi hanno mica detto più niente. Poi dopo io ho fatto tutta un’altra vita che poi sono entrato nell’Artigianelli, ma la guerra era finita oramai. Io gli Artigianelli li ho fatti, sì proprio alla fine della guerra. Perchè dopo io sono andato, ho trovato tutti bei genitori lì, poi è stata lunga la faccenda, no, tutto lì.
FA: E quando bombardavano il Ponte della Becca, la polveriera, era di giorno quindi?
FN: Sempre di giorno, i caccia e i bombardieri, sempre di giorno, sempre nel pomeriggio, più o meno dalle tre e mezza alle quattro, praticamente tutti i giorni quelli arrivavano, prima i caccia che facevano un bordello che durava anche una bella mezz’ora e più, che andavano e poi tornavano, andavano [makes a droning noise] facevano poi non li sentivi più, poi tornavano e facevano diversi giri. Poi veniva un silenzio mortale perché poi dopo bisognava raccogliere i cocci, per dire, no, per vedere i disastri che facevano, no, e poi toccavano, e allora poi arrivavano i bombardieri che li sentivi proprio da lontano, facevano anche rumore [makes a droning noise] impressionava anche se, tra l’altro, no, e bombardavano quasi sempre sempre sempre. Come arrivavano i bombardieri dopo bombardavano. La contraerea veniva messa a tacere, vero, e allora i bombardieri arrivavano tranquilli, anche il Pippo, la contraerea non riusciva mai a fare niente perché puntavano quei famosi fari, no, un po’ ma non lo buscavano mai perché poi tra l’altro Pippo veniva, girava sopra a bassa quota. Si credeva sempre che era in alto, no, ma invece era sempre a bassissima quota Pippo anzi sì, se era un giorno o una notte con la luna così rischiavi di vederlo, se era buio buio non lo vedevi però se era lo vedevi proprio, sempre a bassa quota è stato Pippo. La gente ha sempre creduto che era in alto, chissà dove, ecco perché la contraerea non è mai riuscito a prendere quegli aeroplani lì che loro con i fari andavano in alto ma lui era in basso. Non so più cosa dire.
FA: E’ mai riuscito a vederlo lei?
FN: Sì, sì. Ah io, poi tra l’altro ero curioso, ero tremendo, ero un po’ il capogruppo di sti giovanotti, quei ragazzotti lì, no, e anche quando arrivava Pippo io scappavo fuori dall’osteria così e di notte per vedere eccetera, non stavo fermo un minuto, sono riuscito a vederlo sì, parecchie volte. Sempre di sfuggita eh. [unclear] Dava un senso che era sempre lì invece era dappertutto. Correvi da una parte lo sentivi di là, correvi dall’altra lo sentivi, era sempre, magari, magari erano anche in due o tre, di quei aerei, però dava il senso sempre di uno, il Pippo, così chiamato, così famoso, per noi ragazzi era una, era quasi una, ma ci piaceva anche per dire, non ci rendevamo conto del pericolo, per quello che.
FA: Non avevate paura?
FN: No non, io non ho mai avuto paura, no no no. Io l’unica cosa che avevo paura era Radio Londra, Radio Londra.
CI: Posso parlare?
FN: Parla!
CI: Tant’è vero che Pippo avevamo pensato che a un certo momento che non era uno, erano in tanti.
FN: Sì eh.
CI: Si trovano dappertutto. Lui lo conoscevano tutti, lo vedevano tutti in tutti i posti, sempre lo stesso orario.
FN: Sì, sì, erano tanti.
CI: A un certo momento, ma sono in tanti, non può essere solo uno.
FN: Per noi era.
CI: E’ qui, è là, era, è dappertutto.
FN: Cioè per noi, peri noi tutti, anche la gente così, era uno, difatti, Pippo era uno. Però chissà quanti erano in giro perché il rumore era sempre quello, in qualsiasi angolo dove andavi, sentivi sempre quel rumore lì, quindi erano in tanti. Però era uno. Come dire [unclear], loro facevano il loro dovere, no. Gli adulti avevano paura, ma noi ragazzi no, neanche dei caccia così, noi non avevamo paura. Per noi era un soprappiù, era vorrei quasi dire un divertimento, un divertimento perché era anche un po’ una novità vedere sti bolidi, quegli apparecchi, il baccano, poi le mitragliate, perché vedi, ci sono state parecchie volte che vedevi proprio le pallottole che viaggiavano davanti a te perché quelli lì. E c’era la lomba, ecco qui, lo sfollamento, Milano, i Milanesi che si scaricavano proprio a Broni, tutti quei posti lì, no. C’era la Lombarda, che era la società di corriere, era così famosa, le corriere che andavano a Carbonella doppie col mantice in mezzo, quelle sempre puntuali alle sei, non sono mai state bombardate né mitragliate, si capisce che forse c’era una specie di accordo perché partivano da Milano, venivano a Pavia e se, erano sempre un quattro cinque corriere, neh, doppie, alle sei Campospinoso Albaredo alle sei passavano, si fermavano all’osteria perché si fermavano a bere eccetera eccetera, no, cariche anche fin sopra, andavano a Carbonella ma quelle cariche di persone, uomini, donne, di tutti i colori, arrivavano e andavano verso Broni, Stradella, così, la Lombarda si chiamava, sai perché quello me lo ricordo! Però non sono mai stati mitragliati. Mitragliavano uno in bicicletta, per dire, mentre quelli lì non li hanno mai, mai, mai toccati. Si capisce che, come ho detto, o era un accordo o sapevano che erano sfollati perché gli aerei li vedevano quelli lì eh perché erano grossi così quelle corriere, non so se c’è ancora quella società lì a Milano la Lombarda, non lo so. Però era quella insomma. Fate domande voialtri vi rispondo.
FA: Invece quando era a Voghera che era più piccolo, andavano sulla stazione?
FN: Solo sulla stazione.
FA: Solo lì.
FN: I caccia. Solo sulla stazione, almeno io, per me era quello. Ma però mica sempre bombardavano. Passavano tutti i giorni praticamente perché noi partivamo lì da quell’istituto lì, sì, traversavamo, perché era proprio l’inizio dove c’era, non so se il prato con le carceri, le carceri, davanti c’era quell’orfanotrofio lì, traversavamo tutto Voghera, e suonava, quando eravamo a metà Voghera, a metà strada, suonava l’allarme, che noi l’aspettavamo, cioè noi ragazzini andavamo a scuola, speriamo che suona l’allarme, speriamo che suona, la scuola, suonava l’allarme e loro, sai, tutta la gente scappava nei rifugi. , Noi invece scappavamo, quel fiume, no il fiume, fiumiciattolo, era cioè la Staffora, quando era in piena era tremendo, la Staffora c’era, c’era, c’è ancora, no, scappavamo lì, giocavamo lì, a tirare sassi. E lì bombardavano o se non altro passavano per spaventare più che altro. Naturalmente le scuole venivano sospese e noi siamo sempre stati promossi lo stesso. C’era la maestra di italiano che era una sfegatata, una fascista, beh stavo dicendo, una [unclear], una fascista ma era brava come e nell’esame finale, per essere promosso, mi ha chiamato: ‘Nocchieri!’. Bisognava alzarsi in piedi sull’attenti perché allora che eran tutti , e ‘chi sei tu?’, eh beh non so neanche come mi e’ venuto in mente: ‘sono un italiano e amo la mia patria’, seduto, promosso. Io sono stato promosso in italiano con quella frase lì [laughs]. Per dire no, e ora c’era un maestro, un insegnante, era un prete, lo chiamavamo Bà. Bà, l’era cattivo, aveva sempra una verga in mano. Bà se non sapeva, non rispondeva, ti chiamava davanti a lui, con la verga, ti faceva mettere le mani cos’ì, no, e poi ti picchiava il Bà. Se per disgrazia tu facevi così ne prendevi dieci volte il doppio. Diventava cattivo, picchiava, però ai ragazzi, c’erano dei ragazzi che venivano dalla campagna, no, e li mandava fuori dalla scuola scavalcando un muro a prendere, farsi dare una gallina, o le uova, e quelli erano fortunati perché quelli che avevano la cascina, che avevano le galline, andavano a casa, prendevano la gallina e gliela portavano, invece io, con altri, eravamo un quattro cinque, dell’orfanotrofio, dove andavamo a prendere le galline e insomma io, alzo la mano, vado a prendere e mi ha lasciato andare io e un altro e quando siamo rimasti fuori dalla scuola, e adesso cosa facciamo, dove, come facciamo a portare una gallina, quello se, se non portiamo una gallina ci da tante di quelle botte, stiamo, e noi siamo andati a rubare le galline [laughs], beh in un pollaio abbiamo rubato le galline abbiamo, sai, le avventure della scuola. Della guerra perché quello lì si capisce che aveva sempre fame, no, e allora lo mandava, non poteva andare fuori adesso viene neanche da parlare, ma allora e vabbè, c’è chi mandava a prendere le uova o bene o male bisognava tornare indietro con qualche cosa e allora noi, per non essere interrogati o giù di lì, chiedevamo di andare fuori di scuola ma per noi era brutta perché non avevamo i genitori, la cascina, loro, bisognava andare raccontando, c’era un ragazzo che era diventato, ma quello era grande, cleptomano, tutti i giorni andava dentro in qualche negozio e rubava o un salame o delle scatole di marmellata o rubava, o lo zucchero, rubava sempre un bordello, noi lo sapevamo, quando arrivava in istituto, cioè un collegio non era un istituto, ero, , arrivava in collegio, gli buttevamo su una mantella sulla testa, gli portavamo via tutto [laughs] e lui il giorno dopo era daccapo, tanto per divertimen to, per dire! . Sì perché c’era l’orfanotrofio c’erano i maschi da una parte e le femmine dall’altra e naturalmente noi maschi quelle, [laughs] le femmine le erano un po’, su, mi spiego, e allora cercavamo di andare di nascosto dalle femmine ma c’erano sempre le suore che ci bloccavano e le studiavamo in tutti i modi per cercare di andare di là. Le avventure di istituto. E in tempo, sì in tempo di guerra lì, ecco, c’era un orto grandissimo lì dietro l’istituto in cui si erano piazzati, hann messo giù le tende tutto, gli indiani, mi viene in mente adesso, un accampamento di indiani. Dall’alto dell’istituto si vedeva questo accampamento. E noialtri, io sempre in testa perché le combinavo sempre, le tende eravamo convinti che c’era qualche cosa di buono, del cioccolato, così, e allora buttavamo giù i cuscini in quell’accampamento lì l’inizio, però per andare là bisognava passare dove c’era il reparto delle femmine, e o bene o male aspettavamo che passassero suore, c’erano delle suore un po’ anzianotte, e quando passava una suora, due o tre sotto là e zac!. E c’è stato un giorno che abbiamo portato via un sacco, no, due o tre sacchi di roba così. Eravamo convinti che era zucchero, li abbiamo portati su nelle camerate e poi quando li abbiamo aperti era tutto pepe e allora pepe dappertutto, un disastro solo, da ragazzi, mi è venuto in mente adesso. Li indiani, c’erano anche indiani in tempo di guerra, sì, sì, me lo ricordo, il pepe, lì eccetera. Avevo una bomba a mano io. C’era uno del mio paese che è stato chiamato a fare il militare e allora era stato traferito lì nella ferrovia, la stazione di dietro lì[unclear], le ferrovie insomma ecco, faceva il militare lì. Io quando ho saputo che era lì, allora andavo a trovarlo con un altro compagno così, perché ho detto, la fame non era un problema ma c’erano dei momenti che facevi la fame anche lì, no, la fame è la fame! E allora quando andavo lì a trovare questo amico, diciamo così del paese, preparava sempre qualcosa da mangiare, ci dava da mangiare sempre in due, traversavamo tutti i binari, nessuno ci diceva niente, traversavamo i binari, andavamo lì, ci dava da mangiare. E un giorno mi ha dato una bomba a mano, la Balilla, si chiamavano Balilla quelle lì, e me l’ha data lui e ero diventato il padrone dell’istituto con quella Balilla, del collegio con quella Balilla lì. Poi lo sapevano tutti che l’avevo e allora tutti avevano paura di me [laughs]. Poi un bel momento glielo data indietro perché mi aveva spiegato di non tirare questa qui, se no scoppiava e allora poi glielo data indietro. Tempo di guerra, eh. Dunque, sì poi c’era quello lì, l’ho detto, accennato, che ecco, di qui anche i ragazzi avevano paura. C’era la Villa Triste a Broni. Proprio dove c’è la piazza a Broni grande lì c’è ancora quella villa lì. Ecco, lì è dove entravano dentro e sparivano. Uccidevano eccetera, la chiamavano Villa Triste, che l’aveva in mano prima i tedeschi poi i fascisti. Eh ma, soprattutto quando l’hanno presa i fascisti, allora lì sparivano parecchie persone, anche del mio paese ne sono sparite diversi. Quelli li uccidevano o chissà ecco. Di questa qui da ragazzino, che da ragazzino avevamo paura difatti io andavo a Broni sempre mandato a prendere qualcosa dal Risù, da fare le spese e via eccetera, io poi soldi ne avevo in abbondanza perché li prendevo dove c’erano, c’era, erano nell’osteria, no, sapevo anch’io che, e c’era un cassetto con i soldi che prendevo, io ne prendevo solo una manciata, mettevo in tasca, andavo a Broni, Stradella, andavo nelle pasticcerie, a mangiare la cioccolata, i biscotti, ne facevo delle scorpacciate, ci andavo di frequente, no, per fare delle commissioni, nello stesso tempo io vedevo e questa villa qui, anch’io da ragazzo ci giravo al largo perché avevo paura, anche era entrata un po’ nella nostra mentalità, no, e allora, Villa Triste sì, c’era a Broni sì. [unclear] La Todt l’ho detto, sordomuto quello là che l’hanno ucciso, Pippo.
FA: E a Broni e Stradella invece non bombardavano?
FN: No. Sì, poteva fare disastri Pippo, perché Pippo era anche lì. Però Broni, Stradella non è mai stata bombardata, che sappia io, no, no, no. Che poi Broni e Stradella erano diventate il centro vero e proprio degli sfollati milanesi eh, perché tutti i giorni c’era la Lombarda, c’erano queste corriere lombarde, tre, quattro, a volte sei, tutte in fila e si scaricavano tutte a Broni e a Stradella. Poi andavano su nelle colline ma tutto il giorno era una fiumana di persone, però il paese così, Broni e Stradella, le ferrovie, no, non è mai stata, anche l’industria che c’era, le robe via, la Gea, tutte quelle ditte lì grosse abbastanza ma non sono mai state bombardate quelle zone lì, che sappia io. Allora, fate domande e io vi rispondo.
FA: Va bene.
FN: [unclear]
FA: Vuole dirci qualcos’altro?
FN: No, [unclear] sono magari dopo quando siete andati via mi viene in mente delle altre. Tedeschi ubriachi, le fucilazioni, testimoni, sono cose vere queste eh, che ho raccontato, mica le invento eh. Società, avevo dimenticato società la Lombarda, la Lombarda la chiamavano, biblioteca, giovanotti, tedeschi ritirata, , amico maciullato, non mi ricordo più il nome, era un ragazzino, aveva la mia età, funerale, anche qua hanno mitragliato, la Todt, la Todt anche quella lì, faceva, che poi era il disastro quando c’era il Po in piena, con tutto l’argine bucato perché c’è stato una volta che poi il Po era arrivato fino a Campospinoso Albaredo, sì, me li ricordo un anno e appunto perché l’argine era bucato e l’acqua, era bucato da queste trincee che facevano, no, era bucato e fino a Campospinoso Albaredo una volta è arrivato il Po, anche lì c’era un bel, era un bel disastro eh, e allora e poi finita la guerra allora andavamo a prendere le lepri, correvamo dietro le lepri perché non c’era più il divieto di caccia perché in quel paese lì, Campospinoso Albaredo era il paese, era un padrone solo, gli Arnaboldi, e ho conosciuto Arnaboldi, proprio il figlio, la madre, la figlia, era un padrone solo, terreni e tutto.
CI: Era ricco.
FN: Eh?
CI: Era ricco.
FN: Era Arnaboldi. Adesso tant’è che c’è ancora, adesso c’è il ricovero intestato ad Arnaboldi poi quando poi è morto anche il figlio andava a cavallo non so è morto, allora il paese hann cominciato a venderlo, casa per casa, l’han venduto tutto però Arnaboldi era, conte Arnaboldi, capitava.
CI: Era una potenza.
FN: Era una potenza allora, quel paese era così e tutti, tutti, tutti lavoravano nella proprietà di questo conte. Quello di Campospinoso Albaredo che poi adesso si è allargato ma il paese era tutto su una striscia [unclear], tutti, tutti, tutti lavoravano per questo conte, la terra. E poi aveva ogni famiglia c’era la raccolta del baco da seta, ogni famiglia aveva la sua stanza del baco da seta e il conte Arnaboldi, il bozzolo così bisognava consegnarli tutti a questo conte, venivano pagato un tot ma non so era così, però era conte Arnaboldi quel paese lì, lo sapevi, lo sai adesso.
FA: Va bene. Allora la, la ringraziamo per questa intervista.
FN: No, io, non so, adesso, quello, io ho raccontato quello che mi è venuto in mente.
CI: Fuori programma.
FN: Fuori programma.
CI: Una cosa che ricordo bene di te quando eravamo là agli Artigianelli, tu sei arrivato che eri già, avevi già quattordici anni o che, io
FN: Eh sì, perché, sì, sì.
CI: Noi lì eravamo, beh
FN: Avevo finito
CI: Un collegio da preti, no, quindi c’era un certo comportamento e lui l’è rivà e l’ canteva, s’è scincà la pel del cul, Donna Vughere, Donna Vughere, s’è scincà la pel del cul, Donna Vughere fala giustà.
FN: Ero, no, io.
CI: [laughs] Te lo ricordi te?
FN: Sì. Eh, io ero ragazzino. Lo dico adesso.
CI: Era un po’ differente da tutti gli altri. Lui era venuto, gli altri sono venuti in un età un po’ meno, dopo la quinta elementare ma lui è arrivato già, sui quattordici anni, quindici, era, poi aveva subito una vita un po’ disastrosa via, cioè, era euforico, teneva allegro un po’ tutti eh, era un po’ un punto d’appoggi, da esterno diciamo, diceva delle cose che gli altri non si permettevano di dire ma lui.
FN: Ma no, è perché io, io ho avuto anche quella fortuna lì, nonostante tutto, io sono sempre stato un ragazzo buono, cioè bravo, buono ecco più che altro, mai cattivo.
CI: Sì, di animo buono.
FN: Ecco, animo buono. Però sono sempre stato uno, un tipo allegro e ne inventavo di tutti i colori. Per esempio io quando sono entrato negli Artigianelli, ero, sempre stato anche attivo, no, non so se c’entra con la guerra, però io.
CI: No, ma hai spento?
FN: E’ spento.
CI: Spento.
FN: Io però adesso tanto per andare dentro un po’ in tutto nel, quando sono venuto negli Artigianelli io sono sempre stato un tipo in movimento, non stavo fermo no e ho sempre organizzato tante cose, tant’è che poi è quello che ho raccontato adesso, devo avere anche delle fotografie lì. Tant’è che avevo preso anche una certa carica negli scout, no, hai presente che ci sei anche tu negli scout.
CI: Sì, sì negli scout eravamo.
FN: E nell’Azione Cattolica. E mi avevano messo anche, mi avevano dato degli incarichi di responsabilità. E allora nelle mie.
CI: Eri capogruppo te.
FN: Sì. E allora io organizzavo e avevo organizzato una gita in barca, che è quando è annegato [pauses] un ragazzo. Insomma, io ho, poi dopo sono andato, ho imparato, sono diventato insegnante, ho diretto un grande stabilimento ma organizzavo sempre le gite io, nelle scuole soprattutto.
CI: Aveva sempre la macchina fotografica a tracolla.
FN: Sì, io c’avevo sempre.
CI: Appassionato di macchine.
FN: Quello ormai è diventata vecchia, me la son messa qui quando.
FA: Quando è entrato nell’Azione Cattolica?
CI: No, beh, era una cosa particolare interna, ero, io ero l’unico che ero nelle, però per essere boy scout bisognava essere anche nell’azione cattolico. Io ero l’unico, ero un boy scout ma non ero iscritto all’azione cattolica.
FN: Sì, ma prima c’era l’Azione Cattolica dentro, l’Azione Cattolica era come c’era a Pavia, era un’associazione.
CI: Sì, era negli oratori no.
FN: Era un’associazione.
CI: E lì era radicata come internamente.
FN: Sì, come era negli oratori, insomma giovanotti così no, tant’è che quando siamo andati a Roma ho preso tante di quelle botte ma le ho date anche mi è, perché avevo in mano una statua di San Pietro, eh!
FA: Ma chi è che l’ha picchiata?
FN: I compagni, è per quello che poi non, i compagni mi sono sempre andati giù per traverso, no. Vabbè. Giravo per Pavia con un coltello perché c’erano i compagni, perché loro era il momento, vestiti da Boy Scout, sti uomini anche di una certa età che ti prendevano in giro, ma mica venivano vicino a me però. Gli altri scappavano ma vicino a me non ci venivano. A Roma tutti, se ti ricordi il nome perché, l’organizzazione , a Roma c’è stato, era l’organizzazione organizzato da Carlo Carretto, i baschi verdi.
CI: Carlo Carretto era il presidente dell’Azione Cattolica italiana.
FN: I baschi verdi, i giovanotti edell’Azione Cattolica li chiamavano i baschi verdi, a Roma tutti coi baschi verdi, no, che erano allora più di cinquecentomila. E noi andavamo a dormire con gli Artigianelli, col Vergari andavamo a dormire un po’ fuori Roma. C’era un capannone, c’erano delle suore lì e facendo la strada, vero, perché i compagni in quel, quando c’è stato l’incontro con il Papa, avevano paura di tutto questo baccano di questo giovanotti, allora avevano dato ordine di, tutti, di rifugiarsi loro nelle loro sedi. Senonché c’è stato un errore che quando è venuto, veniva oramai il discorso del Papa, tutti questi giovanotti se ne tornavano nei loro posti dove dovevano andare a dormire e nello stesso tempo i compagni avevano la libera uscita per uscire dalle loro sedi e ci sono stati gli scontri, ecco, e allora, il mio gruppo, vero, che poi posso farti i nomi, Barbierato, tutti quei, tu li conosci, li hai conosciuti no, eravamo tutti insieme e andavamo giù verso il [unclear] e nello stesso tempo veniva su un gruppo di uomini, maturi anche uomini maturi e lì c’è stato uno scontro, [unclear], cioè ma quelli là, noi l’avevamo presa così andavamo giù tranquilli, quelli là hanno cominciato a dare botte e tutti sti ragazzi, compagni, amici, scappare a destra e a sinistra, io sono rimasto da solo con quella statua lì, ho preso tanti di quei calci, ma ne ho dati via dove potevo e alcuni li ho feriti anche seriamente e nello stesso tempo, neanche a farlo apposta, è venuto fuori un temporale. Nello stesso tempo hanno fatto, facevano, si sono messi a fare i fuochi artificiali. Tra temporale, tuoni e fuochi artificiali è venuto fuori un bordello, hanno chiamato la croce verde, eh caro mio, non c’era mica tanto da scherzare eh, ecco. Comunque tutte le gite che io ho fatto, ho sempre avuto dei morti.
FA: E chi c’era come Papa?
FN: Pio XII.
CI: Pio XII.
FN: Era Pio, sì, Pio XII.
CI: Pio XII. Papa Pacelli.
FN: Papa Pacelli deve essere.
FA: E che anno? Più o meno?
FN: ’48, o no? ’48.
CI: ’60?
FN: No, che ’60. ’48.
CI: ’48.
FA: Va bene.
FN: No, no, no.
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Title
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Interview with Franco Nocchieri
Description
An account of the resource
Franco Nocchieri recalls his early years as an orphan in several different towns in the Province of Pavia. He describes the bombing of the Voghera railway station, which started while he was heading to school. He goes on to explain how he and his schoolmates used to cheer during air-raids, as they were free to skip school and play. He recounts his experience as live-in delivery boy at his stepfather’s tavern at Albaredo Arnaboldi, a vantage point from which he witnessed the daily attempts to destroy the Ponte della Becca, a bridge across the Po river. Franco describes his memories of ‘Pippo’, which he tried to watch every night, and mentions it dropping explosive devices disguised as fountain pens and toys. He describes the difficult coexistence between the local population and Axis troops, stressing the brutality of fascist militiamen. He also describes the fearsome reputation of a prison in the nearby town of Broni, known as ‘Villa Triste’, where many people disappeared. He remarks on his fearless attitude, except while listening to Radio Londra, which was a criminal offence at the time. Franco comments on the food shortages of the time and describes how the poor resorted to eating cats, which were considered to be a substitute for rabbit. He also recounts several wartime events, including: a narrow escape from the Ponte della Becca bombing; widespread fear inspired by so-called ‘Mongols’ (which were part of a German foreign division); a public execution; a friend killed by a bomb believed to have been dropped by ‘Pippo’; the strafing of a funeral procession, and the sight of Felice Fiorentini, a war criminal dubbed 'The Beast', being paraded in and around the province in a cage after the end of the war. He also mentions various stories from his time as a member of the Azione Cattolica Italiana, a Roman Catholic lay association.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Broni
Italy--Voghera
Italy--Pavia
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Date
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2017-02-02
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01:05:47 audio recording
Language
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ita
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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ANocchieriF170202
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
animal
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/799/10780/ADellFH160520.2.mp3
aeca252c2e392e1703817a3b4c40aa64
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Title
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Dell, Frank
Francis Humphrey Dell
F H Dell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Frank Dell (1923 - 2022, 131049 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 692 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Dell, FH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: Good morning, Frank. I’m talking with Frank Dell. We’re in St Ives in Sydney. It’s Friday the 20th May 2016. My name is John Horsburgh and I’ve got the honour of interviewing Frank this morning. So, before we start I just thought I’d say that Frank was a pilot with the RAF 692 Squadron. He was a Mosquito pilot and assigned to the Light Night Striking Force. And it’s an interesting story because Frank was actually shot down over Germany near the border with Holland and spent some time being sheltered by the Dutch and participating in the Dutch Resistance. So, so good morning Frank. Maybe we can start by talking about your, your childhood and some of your background and how you, how you got to join the RAF.
FD: Well, it’s a little bit of a story there because I I grew up on the south coast of England at a little township called Southwick. Just between Worthing and Brighton. Actually, right on the coast. And there’s a little harbour there called Shoreham Harbour. And all through my teenage stage I had the ambition of joining the Royal Air Force. This is before the war of course and this was spurred on by the fact that my father had been in the Royal Flying Corps and then the RAF in the ‘14/18 war. And like young men today he had first of all wanted to get into cars and then at a slightly later stage flying had caught on and he wanted to fly. But that was a pretty difficult thing to achieve. But, however the First World War then started and that was in 1914 of course. And by 1915 he applied to join the Royal Flying Corps to become a pilot only to be told that at the age of, I think it was thirty two he was too old. They only took younger people. So he couldn’t achieve his ambition at that stage. But the person who interviewed him said, ‘Oh. We see you have a qualification in mechanical engineering. Would you be game to join the Royal Flying Corps as a mechanic? And maybe they would raise the age at which they would take you on as a, as a trainee pilot at a later stage.’ So, anyway against that background he joined and was sent to France and worked as a mechanic at an airfield in northern France and must have made quite a mark while he was there because after about twelve months he was posted back to England and commissioned as an engineering officer. And he was then posted to the Central Flying School at an airfield called Upavon in western England where he was put in a team that was then sent to Canada to establish flying training systems in Canada. And this was of some importance because this was the forerunner of what became known as the Empire Flying Training Scheme in the Second World War. And having started, or having got established in Canada at the end of 1917 the United States came into the war so their training establishment in Canada was then transferred to Fort Worth in Texas. And we started Flying Training Schools, British Flying Training Schools in Texas in the ‘14/18 war. And people have no knowledge of this in this day and age. But this was —
JH: So that is interesting. So that is the forerunner of the Empire Training Scheme.
FD: Absolutely.
JH: Which was mainly Canada but also the US in the Second World War.
FD: Exactly. Yes. It was an extraordinary thing. But anyway the war ended and, oh yes he had applied for a permanent commission in what had become the Royal Air Force. But by the time his demobilisation date came up no permanent commission had been offered so he went back and joined his father’s business. His father having a fairly small furniture business selling antique furniture and good quality second hand furniture and he had a small department specialising in selling and fitting carpets. And he had a removal van for moving his goods to and fro and for moving people’s furniture when they moved house and that sort of thing. And he had a warehouse for the storage of people’s furniture. And that was the main character of the, of the business. And my father didn’t enjoy it all that much but persevered and when his father finally died the business was his and that’s, that was the ongoing business that I knew as I grew up. And I used to so enjoy going to the shop to see it all happening. But then the Second World War was declared and I was, I was sixteen, yes when the war broke out. And living in the south of Sussex, South of England in the county of Sussex a large part of the Battle of Britain took place over head in 1940, by which time I was seventeen.
JH: So you can remember seeing some of that going on above your head.
FD: Day after day one saw these huge formations of German bombers coming over. Once, twice a day and so on. And these great air battles taking place in the sky. And the BBC day by day would recount how many German bombers the RAF had shot down the preceding day in the way that we report cricket matches and things here.
JH: Yes.
FD: And I think the highest number I ever heard broadcast was a hundred and eighty eight in one day. But —
JH: Of German aircraft.
FD: Of German aircraft.
JH: Yes.
FD: Had been shot down for the loss of twenty five or something like that.
JH: Yes.
FD: In fact after the war we realised or it was reported that the figures were grossly exaggerated on both sides.
JH: Yes.
FD: But that was the way it was. But, however one sensed that, that the success or the success or failure from the British point of view success or failure of the battle hinged not really from the number of German bombers that were shot down but whether we would have enough Spitfires and particularly pilots to fly them. And we could see that the limiting factor was likely to be that we would run out of pilots. And in, at the commencement of the battle we started with six hundred pilots flying the Spitfires and Hurricanes in south east England against the German Air Force of two thousand four hundred aircraft attacking England. But, but we could replace the Spitfires quite quickly but we could not replace the pilots that were lost. And in a ten week period having started with six hundred pilots we actually lost six hundred pilots. Arguably they weren’t all the original ones because as men were lost day by day and week by week pilots were brought in from where ever they could be obtained. From other squadrons elsewhere in the UK. We got a whole lot of Navy pilots in and we got pilots from the recently occupied Holland. Belgium.
[recording glitch]
Advertisements saying something on the lines of school leavers who may interested in a post-war career in the Royal Air Force are invited to apply for university courses lasting one year with everything paid for by the Royal Air Force. And with the opportunity of completing their courses after the war. But they would have to serve one year at university. So, I put in my applications and I was accepted. And the logic behind it all was that the Officer Cadet College at Cranwell had been closed down because of the circumstances of the war but nonetheless the air force was still continuing the [pause] the practice and the syllabuses of of applicants as though they were going to peacetime Cranwell. And by some misjudgement I got selected and so I was sent to university by the RAF. All paid for.
JH: Yeah.
FD: For a year.
JH: So this was 1940.
FD: 1940.
JH: Yes.
FD: When we couldn’t be sure that we were going to succeed.
JH: Yes.
FD: You see. Really quite extraordinary.
JH: Yes.
FD: And of course beneath it all of course was propaganda. You know. We were sort of doing this to the Germans.
JH: Yes.
FD: You know. You know we’re going to win because we’re recruiting boys, you know, for after. After we’ve won. It’s extraordinary.
JH: It would have been hard to concentrate on your studies knowing that you could get a telegram any day to report to some place.
FD: Well, anyway that’s how it was and actually I expected to hear. Oh yes, they said, ‘Have you a particular preference of which university you’d like to go to?’ And I’d had various friends and acquaintances who had gone to Oxford and Oxford wasn’t all that far from where I lived. In the event I was sent to Aberdeen University in northern Scotland which was about as far away as I could have been sent which sort of brought home to me the fact that I may have been somewhere near the bottom of the list [laughs] Anyway, there it was. And then one did one’s year there and then those like myself were sent to a little Flying Training School near High Wycombe out through the west of London. This place being called Booker. And —
JH: Which became the headquarters of Bomber Command.
FD: That’s right.
JH: Yes.
FD: It is. But there is also a small airfield which is a communications airfield for Bomber Command in this day and age. But there we were given up to ten hours flying on little Tiger Moths.
JH: Yes.
FD: To determine whether we really had the aptitude to become pilots because they didn’t want to waste money putting us on ships to go to Canada or the United States or wherever to learn to fly if we hadn’t got the aptitude in the first place.
JH: So, that’s interesting. What sort of qualities? Presumably everybody wanted to be a pilot.
FD: Yes.
JH: But what sort of qualities were they looking for specifically in the training?
FD: Well, I can’t say. I think some people have a natural ability and others, you know it can be quite frightening for some people getting in a little aeroplane and going up there. Sort of psychologically they have perhaps not quite the right stuff for this sort of thing.
JH: Yes.
FD: And they looked for athletic people as well. And I suppose they’re thinking of the stress and strain and so on of flying. But anyway there we are.
JH: Yes.
FD: That’s the sort of general picture. And then —
JH: So your first solo flight was a Tiger Moth.
FD: Well, no. They, they took you up to the point at which they were confident that you could go solo.
JH: Yes.
FD: But you did not in fact go solo at this little place.
JH: Oh.
FD: No.
JH: Yes.
FD: But you just reached that point.
JH: Yes. Yes.
FD: There were all sorts of twists and turns and what happened then. But I was then put with a group of people who were sent to Canada to — we went across on a Canadian Pacific liner called the Montcalm. The weather was terrible [laughs] We were all sea sick. And we ended up in Halifax.
JH: Yes.
FD: But anyway then we went to a depot at a place called Moncton where they then decided where, what airfield, what training airfields you were going to go to. And I was most fortunate, at least I regarded myself as most fortunate being sent down to the United States to learn to fly in the United States. America having just, Pearl Harbour had just happened.
JH: Yes.
FD: So America no longer had to play games to try and get around being a neutral country.
JH: Yes.
FD: They were at last in the war.
JH: And a connection with your father’s experience.
FD: Absolutely.
JH: Yes.
FD: Yes.
JH: Yes.
FD: So, and then I, and those immediately with me were sent to a small flying training school at Tuscaloosa in Alabama. Tuscaloosa being the university. The university town for Alabama. Which meant there were quite a lot of lady students around at that time. But there we, we flew admirable aeroplanes called Stearmans which were a class ahead of Tiger Moths such as we had before. We had open cockpits and so on. But they had more powerful engines. They had brakes. You could steer on the ground because you had a tail wheel.
JH: Yes.
FD: When the Tiger Moth just had a little skid at the back. On the assumption you were going to be flying off a grass airfield where we flew off a proper runway and so on. And, well we had, what? The best part of three months I suppose there. And it was the best flying I ever encountered. It was just wonderful flying these little aeroplanes. And then one moved to another airfield. Montgomery in, Montgomery [pause] yes that was Alabama as well. It was called Gunter Field where we flew aircraft called Vultee Valiants which were somewhat like a Harvard. A single engine training plane but with an enclosed cockpit. But these Vultees in fact had fixed undercarriages.
JH: Yes.
FD: But after flying in an open cockpit like a Tiger Moth or a Stearman it was like stepping into a Rolls Royce to actually be in an aircraft with a canopy and a cover. Anyway, one did that and we had two months doing this on the more advanced aircraft. And then we were posted to Turner Field in, in Georgia where we flew twin-engined aircraft. And all those who, or the majority of people who went through the twin-engined training courses was asked if, by this time we were mixed courses of RAF and American airmen as well. And certainly for the Americans all who went through the twin-engined training then went onto Flying Fortresses and Liberators and things. Four engine aircraft. And for the RAF people most of them went on to Halifaxes and Lancasters as one would be back in the UK. But at the completion of that training some who had done a little better than others on the training courses were selected and put through the American Central Flying School to become instructors themselves. So that the whole training process was self-generating.
JH: Yes.
FD: We generated our own instructors as did the rest.
JH: Yes.
FD: And the air force, the American air force and of course the RAF as well was expanding at a tremendous rate. And, and anyway I completed the instructor’s course and was then, well perhaps I’ll dwell a little on the instructor’s course because there were some pretty exceptional people there. There was one man in particular. In fact he was the chief flying instructor. His name was Si Wilson and he was becoming a specialist in learning how to fly in very turbulent flying conditions. In particular flying through thunder storms. And from him one learned a great deal of how to fly safely through thunderstorms because —
JH: Through rather than around or above.
FD: That’s right.
JH: He flew through these storm cells.
FD: That’s right.
JH: Yes.
FD: And I can remember he was giving us a lecture on something. I don’t know what, when the sergeant came in to the lecture room and whispered in his ear and he thanked the sergeant and then turned to us and said, ‘You’ll have to excuse me gentleman but I’m informed that there’s a big thunderstorm approaching and I think it more important that I should get up into it.’ [laughs] And he left the lecture room, went out and got in his aircraft and up he went. But that was the nature of the character of this man who would actually do it. Anyway, I digress but that was just —
JH: So the next stage was presumably to come back.
FD: Yeah.
JH: And be assigned to a squadron.
FD: Yes. There was a little twist to it there because we were sent to a depot in the UK [pause] where we were interviewed and assessed and told where we were to be sent. And during this interview of course they, one of the first questions was, ‘How many flying hours have you got? What have you done?’ And you see the normal through put of pilots from the training schools would have arrived at this selection centre with something like two hundred and thirty flying hours. That was, that was the minimum. But because I’d done a whole year as a flying instructor I had one thousand two hundred flying hours. And this gave one a little bit of preference when it came to what sort of flying you wanted to do. And I was interested in night fighting. I thought well I, if everybody wanted to fly Mosquitoes or Beaufighters if they could but quite apart from flying the aeroplanes I was interested in the technology that went into flying at night. And anyway having expressed this which I was posted to a training school to become a night fighter pilot and I was sent to this training establishment at a place called Grantham. And if you watch Downton Abbey you will know that Lord Grantham was the leading [laughs]
JH: Grantham. Yes.
FD: Chap in the series. Anyway, there we flew semi-obsolete aircraft called Bristol Blenheims. And —
JH: Twin-engined.
FD: Twin-engined.
JH: Yes.
FD: Yes. About the size of a Mosquito. In fact, if anything a bit bigger than a Mosquito or a Beaufighter. But this was to be a stepping stone towards those sort of aircraft. Anyway, I and my mates completed the course but there were still no vacancies on the squadrons. On the night fighter squadrons. So they said, ‘Oh all right. You can do the course again.’ So we did the same course again. So we maintained our flying practice. And then the word came around that Bomber Command was starting to use Mosquitoes as, as bombers.
JH: In the Pathfinder force.
FD: In the Pathfinder force.
JH: Yes.
FD: In the night, Light Night Striking Force. And one or two of us said, ‘Well, why don’t we go down there and talk to the [pause] talk to 8 Group,’ which were the Pathfinders doing this sort of thing, ‘And see if we can achieve success.’ So down we went and we met a great character in Bomber Command called Mahaddie who did the selection.
JH: Hamish Mahaddie.
FD: Mahaddie.
JH: Yes.
FD: You know the name do you?
JH: Yes. Well my father knew him.
FD: Did he?
JH: He was a friend. Yes.
FD: Yes. Yes. You have to excuse me a moment.
JH: Yes, we’ll have a pause here.
[recording paused]
JH: Frank, we were talking about Hamish Mahaddie.
FD: Yes.
JH: An interesting character. And I believe he was Don Bennett’s head-hunter or horse thief.
FD: That’s right.
JH: Is that correct?
FD: Yes. And, well so one was selected and I found myself in 8 Group which was the Pathfinder Group and I was posted to 692 Squadron at, at Graveley. And as you’ve just mentioned Dixie Dean was the station commander and the, and commanding officer of 692 Squadron was [pause] I’ll have to think rather hard for a moment. Joe. It escapes me for the moment. It’ll come.
JH: Never mind. It’ll come back. Yeah. What was the culture like at Graveley at that time?
FD: Oh [pause]
JH: In terms of morale and —
FD: Yes. Well, people, people were cheerful. Yes. People. One wouldn’t, wouldn’t have said that there was any lack of morale. No. Life was perhaps a little, or humour may have been rather exaggerated to counter battles. What else was going on. But no. It was — life was pretty, pretty normal.
JH: And in your book, I might give a plug for your book, “Mosquito Down” A very interesting read. You have an anecdote about Don Bennett.
FD: Yes.
JH: Who turned up one day.
FD: Yes.
JH: In his Mosquito.
FD: That’s right. Well, we’d been briefed. Standard procedure was that at about mid-day on any day we were told which, which crews were on that night as the saying was. And, and that meant that it was desirable to get some sleep in the afternoon and, you know prepare for what might happen that evening. And then we’d be given a time later in the day when we’d have to report to the briefing room to be briefed on what we’d been alerted to do. And this invariably started with the crews sitting in rows of seats in this little theatre in essence. With a screen at the, at the front with a map of Europe on it with coloured ribbons pinned to it to show what the routing was going to be and so as you walked in to the room just by looking at the ribbons you could tell what the, what the target was going to, going to be. And if it was going to be somewhere like Berlin or Essen which were both very heavily defended places a great groan would go up among the boys as they took their seats.
JH: So the ribbons told the story as soon as you walked in.
FD: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. And well there, oh yes there was again this time when we turned up to be briefed. I can’t remember what the target was that night but it was of significance that it was our thirteenth trip and it was Friday the 13th [laughs] and Ron, my navigator and I exchanged looks [laughs]
JH: Not that you were superstitious of course.
FD: Not that we were superstitious [laughs] But in the event it was cancelled. So we didn’t go. But the next night was still our thirteenth [laughs] but not on the Friday. And so what sticks in my mind about the briefing that night was here were the tapes on the chart and they led to Berlin. And as we took our seats and having spotted where the tapes were leading the customary groan went up among us all. And then the intelligence officer, as was the pattern stood up to tell us or to give us information that might be useful to us as we went along. Such things as if our reconnaissance aircraft had noticed that they were moving night fighters to airfields closer to the coast or that they were moving guns to particular towns or cities or they were establishing decoys around particular towns to confuse us and things like this. But on this particular occasion as we marched in and spotted Berlin and groaned the intelligence officer who was a new chap got up and said, ‘Well, I don’t think there’s anything that I can tell you tonight that you probably haven’t experienced before.’ And sat down. So that was our total briefing for what was lying in wait for us along the way. That stuck in my mind ever since. ‘Nothing unusual tonight that you haven’t experienced before.’ [laughs] And in fact the heavy bombers that night were going to the northern end of the industrial Ruhr to bomb a town called Duisburg which had big, a big steelworks to do with the Krupps steel making industry and we were to go off. Our take off time had been calculated so that we would pass over Duisburg just as the heavy bombers were turning for home after they dropped their bombs on the town. And that we were then to continue further eastwards to Berlin as we normally did deduce with the objective of drawing the night fighters away from the heavy bombers who were then heading, heading back for home. And as part of the exercises as we approached Duisburg we would throw out what they called Window. Which were these strips of silver paper which when thrown out into the slipstream would create a minute, an image of a very much larger force than in fact we were. And anyway we did our duty doing that.
JH: Any heavy bombers go with you part of the way towards Berlin?
FD: No. No. No.
JH: Just the Mosquitoes.
FD: As soon as they got over Duisburg they turned for home and we continued on. And the Germans would then have to start guessing as to where we were going to go and the size of our bomber force which was quite difficult for them. Or we hoped it was difficult for them. Anyway, the first big town we passed over after leaving Duisburg or as we, was Munster. And as we approached Munster the anti-aircraft gunfire came up and there were many searchlights so even if you were flying at twenty eight thousand feet as we were you could almost read a newspaper up at that height. And we were suddenly hit by something. I thought we were hit by anti-aircraft fire because there were shells coming up. We, we used to use a gadget called Boozer. I don’t know if that’s mentioned in the book but Boozer was a very simple device that we had. It consisted, consisted of two little radio receivers. One tuned to the ground radar frequency used by anti-aircraft guns and searchlights on the ground. And the other part of the receiver was tuned to the night fighter frequencies. So that if there was a night fighter somewhere close to you you’d be warned. You had a yellow warning light to tell you that if it just came on dimly it meant that you were being looked at in general terms but not specifically. But if, if a gun was being, a radar gun was being pointed at you then the light came on very brightly in which case you had to alter course. So that when the shell finally reached your height —
JH: How much leeway would you have in terms of time when that light went on?
FD: We — you counted one second per thousand feet. Feet of altitude. So we would fly at, well commonly at twenty seven, twenty eight thousand feet so we’d count up to twenty eight. Well, we’d alter course immediately the bright light came on. And then you’d count up to twenty eight. Then you’d go back on course again and you’d look over your shoulder and you’d see pop pop pop pop shells bursting where you would have been had you not altered course. And so that was how we played it at the ground radar. And then we had a red warning light which would come on dimly if there was a German night fighter somewhere behind you. And that came on brightly when he was two or three or four hundred yards right behind you. In which case you then did the steepest turn that you’d ever done in your life. And you also used to, you were required to shout out, ‘Snapper,’ on the radio so to warn other aircraft in our immediate vicinity that there was one of these devils very close and very active. Anyway.
JH: And you had no machine guns.
FD: No.
JH: On the Mosquito.
FD: No. No. All we could do was do a very steep turn.
JH: Yeah. Sure.
FD: But you didn’t have to turn very far before you got outside the fighter’s screen. So [pause] anyway it was all a bit complex but you could get outside the area that he was watching.
JH: His envelope. Yeah.
FD: But once, once he got close, close enough he then, the fighter pilot would detach his attention away from radar and instruments and so on because for his final attack if he could get you silhouetted against searchlights then he’d got you.
JH: Yeah.
FD: And so that was the situation that I was in. But I didn’t know that there was a night fighter behind me but in retrospect I can now see that he probably saw me silhouetted against the searchlights. And anyway we got hit and the aircraft gradually went, oh first of all the flying control column was thrashing. Thrashing to and fro. And the aircraft slowly went into a steeper and steeper climb.
JH: You were hit in the tail area.
FD: Well, exactly. One couldn’t handle just at that moment what was happening but subsequently I realised that probably the elevators were either damaged or shot off I think. There was no, there was no elevator control left at all. And the thing then went into, fell away into a spin and I don’t know how many times we went around and around but I suppose it would be five or six times. And my analysis now is that our bomb broke loose. Because we used to just carry one four thousand pound bomb. That was all we had. One four thousand pound. It was a bit longer than this table and was, it was like a big oil drum. An elongated oil drum. But it was four thousand pounds weight and I think as the aircraft spun down I think it broke loose and broke the aircraft. Because one minute one was sitting in the aircraft with shoulder straps on and leg straps all connected to a big buckle here and one minute one was sitting in the aircraft trying to cope with this situation and the next minute one was out in the fresh air. There was no, no sort of undoing of seat belts or opening hatches or anything. There was no transition at all. One minute one was in the plane. The next minute one was out in the darkness tumbling end over end. And I can remember feeling around presuming that I’d still got the, that I was still attached to the seat and — but the seat had gone. My shoulder straps had gone. But one sat on one’s parachute. That was, that was the cushion that you sat on was one’s parachute and that was all still there and I remember pulling the rip cord and being very relieved when the parachute went pop. And eventually after a moment of utter utter confusion it suddenly became quite peaceful.
JH: And could you see the Mosquito going down below you?
FD: No. But, but I did see a big explosion after I don’t know how much time. A minute or so I suppose. But I did see a big explosion which I presumed was the, was my bomb going off. Yeah.
JH: And I bet you were hoping your navigator —
FD: Well —
JH: Had got out.
FD: Well, you see this was the agony of mind. It was really terrible. Yeah. Because as we had gone over Munster and so this time he’d had sufficient time at our cruising altitude in order to calculate a wind and to compare it with the estimated wind that we’d use for our flight planning at the outset. So, by that time he had his, he’d got — he’d calculated a wind. And he’d got out of his seat and ducked down into the little space underneath the instrument panel and gone up into the bombing nose so that he could set up the wind on the bomb sight so that he could be all set for when we got over Berlin which was going to be another forty five minutes later or so. So, he was down there when the aeroplane broke up. And he didn’t wear, he didn’t wear a parachute.
JH: His, his ‘chute was on a hook somewhere.
FD: It was on a little shelf just near his seat. And he, he wore the harness which had two big hooks on it and he was expected, if we got into trouble he was expected to take the parachute off the shelf, clip it on and then open the hatch and jump out. But he wouldn’t have had a chance of doing any of that.
JH: This is Ron Naiff isn’t it? Your navigator.
FD: Ron. Yeah.
JH: Yes.
FD: Yes. Yeah.
JH: So, so there was some wind so were you drifting as you were coming down?
FD: Yes. Absolutely. Yes. I can’t remember what the, what the wind strength was but it was probably something like twenty knots or so because we used to calculate everything in knots. And one comes down in a parachute at something like a thousand feet a minute and I think probably the plane was probably at about twenty thousand feet when it broke up. So it would have taken me about twenty minutes to come down and [pause] A third of an hour. Yeah. And we would have drifted. Yeah. Yes. Drifted five, six miles or so and I think this was the saving grace for me because if people went out and located the wreckage of my plane and they found that one crew member was missing — by that time I was six miles away. And I think that really was my saving grace. That —
JH: And landed, you landed in a farming area or forest.
FD: Yes. I landed. I sort of got down fairly low. I can remember looking down thinking I could see a darker dark patch on the ground and I thought I was coming down in a wood. And almost as soon as I thought the thought I’d hit the ground and in fact I was in, I’d come down in quite a small ploughed field and it was because it had been ploughed that it did show up as being a bit darker than surrounding fields. So I landed on my bum on the soft newly ploughed field.
JH: Had you actually parachuted before in training? Or this was your first jump?
FD: Yes. It was. Yes. They gave us lectures giving simple guidance on what to do but no more than that yeah. Once was enough. Yeah.
JH: So, what, so presumably you had to bury the parachute somehow.
FD: Well, that’s right.
JH: And then figure out what to do. Which —
FD: Needless to say had to hide parachutes somehow.
JH: Yes.
FD: So that again the searching party wouldn’t have a datum point from which to continue.
JH: Yes. And footprints.
FD: Continue the search and so on. So I went to the edge of the field. Buried the parachute in a shallow ditch underneath some undergrowth that was there. And then, oh yes in the lectures that we had you know in which we were taught what to do under these circumstances one of the things they said was take out your escape pack and we all had these little boxes in our, in the breast pockets of our, of our battle dresses. And they said, ‘Take those. Take your escape pack, open it up and,’ they said, ‘On the very top you’ll find a cellophane packet with,’ I think they’re called Bendazine. Bendezine. ‘Benzedrine tablets in them.’ Which in this day and age are regarded as soft drugs that you buy on Saturday nights, I think [laughs] But they said, ‘Take one of these because it will sharpen your wits. Help you to overcome the shock that you’ve been through and,’ they said, ‘It will also put you on your guard if you get caught very soon after coming down because,’ they said, ‘It’s while you are in a state of some shock people are most vulnerable in interrogation.’ So, they said, ‘Take, take one or two of these tablets and that’ll help you pull yourself together. And then,’ they said, ‘Get the hell out of it. Get as far away as you possibly can.’ Which I did. And, well the story goes on and on in the book. But I did find my way to a, into a wood. I don’t know if you want me to go into all of it.
JH: That is interesting. In the book you, I remember you were in this wood.
FD: Yes.
JH: And you kept hearing all this shouting going on.
FD: Yes.
JH: And you thought they were closing in on you.
FD: Yes. Well, to start with, just as I was, quite soon after I left this ploughed field and found my way to a little road which was heading in a general sort of north westerly direction I started out walking out along this and I heard this big heavy vehicle coming along behind. And I couldn’t see it at first and, but there were men walking along the road ahead of it with flashlights which they were shining in the hedgerows and trees and things as this vehicle went along. And my first thought was that they were shining the flashlights to see if they could see someone like me. But in fact I then doubled around and walked along behind this vehicle and every once in a while one got a silhouette of the vehicle against the light of these torches and so on. And one could see that it was a very very big vehicle with a tarpaulin over, over the top. And so as it went along with these guys I was walking along behind it and then eventually we came to this wood and this vehicle turned up a little pathway into the, into the wood. And I thought well if they are still looking for me I’ll come into the wood and find somewhere to hide. Which I did. I found a bit of a ditch that had been overgrown with brambles and ferns and undergrowth of various kinds and I buried myself in this and the vehicle continued on for another, I don’t know three or four hundred yards perhaps. And then there was a lot of shouting and then I heard the engine stop on this vehicle and then it all went quiet. And then in my little hiding place I got a little sleep then. And then after perhaps an hour or so more shouting and the sound of this vehicle’s engine running and so on one then had this extraordinary experience of a noise louder than I’d heard in my life before. And one saw this great column of smoke going up into the air. And it was one of these V-2s being launched. But what was so extraordinary was that it wasn’t being launched from any sort of prepared launching site. There was no, no sort of concrete constructions of any sort there. It seemed to be just a cleared space in the middle of the forest. And I thought, you know this was, this became very important to me to get back home to tell people that the Germans were launching rockets from where ever they chose to launch them. They didn’t have to have a specially prepared launching site as was the case with V-1s. The V-1s did have to have specially constructed concrete launching ramps which the V-2s quite clearly did not.
JH: Well, that is interesting and if you had have been caught by these Germans watching a launch.
FD: Yes.
JH: You would have been in a very difficult situation I would have thought.
FD: Yes. That’s true. Yeah. So, anyway it must have been at about the time of this launching that I sort of checked on my own situation and opened up my escape pack and discovered that the night before I hadn’t been taking Benzedrine tablets. I’d been taking water purifying tablets [laughs] Yeah. But yes.
JH: Chlorine.
FD: Yeah. That’s right. Yes.
JH: So, you, I guess you had a compass in part of the kit.
FD: Yes I did.
JH: And how far were you from the Dutch border?
FD: I reckoned it was about eighty kilometres. And I managed to cover that distance in four nights of walking. It was actually on the fifth day that I finally confirmed that I was in Holland.
JH: And reading, reading the chapter in the book this was farmland. Farm areas.
FD: Yes.
JH: Villages.
FD: Yes.
JH: It’s not wilderness. And I seem to remember that almost night and day there was quite a bit of rain.
FD: Yes.
JH: And was that a, was that an advantage for you in that you know with not so many people out walking along the lanes?
FD: Well, that, that may well have been the case. But I think I had probably two dry nights to start with but after that yes it was raining and drizzling and I got sopping wet. Yeah. That added to my misery I can tell you. Yeah.
JH: And you did have some close calls with some German soldiers.
FD: Yes. Yes. That’s right. One night when I was walking along I could, I could hear laughter and shouting and so on. And I think this was probably four or five that I, rather than bumping in to them and being accosted when I could speak no German of course I thought it best to turn in the opposite direction and get as far away as quickly as I could. So that was the first encounter. And another time on an another night walking along in the darkness I almost bumped into a German truck that was stuck at the side of the road with the bonnet open and two German soldiers were poking about in the engine trying to get it started. But I just walked to the other side of the road and hid behind a tree and watched. Of course it was only later that I discovered that the Germans were desperately short of petrol and diesel oil and so on and they were putting all sorts of rubbish I think into the tanks.
JH: Thanks to Bomber Command.
FD: That’s right.
JH: Yes.
FD: That’s right. Yes.
JH: So had you found like an overcoat or something to put over your —
FD: No.
JH: Your flying dress?
FD: No. No. But very much later when I was joined by other allied aircrew when I was living on a particular farm one of the chaps who came to join me was my Australian friend Jim Strickland who faced with this very question, well like me he had started by, he’d come down near Dusseldorf. And he was, like me walking into Holland or hoping to walk into Holland. But he found that, found it so difficult walking in the darkness that he took to walking in the daytime. And he took off — we used to, used to wear heavy knitted navy blue sweaters like the one that you’re wearing. But they were very long and come down almost to your knees and when one was wearing one’s uniform on top of that, one’s battle dress one used to throw the bottom piece up over your chest so you had two layers of of the sweater. And what, what Jim hit upon was taking his sweater off altogether and putting the sweater on top of his uniform. And he said he gathered an armful of brushwood as though he was taking it home to kindle the kitchen stove or something. And he said wearing his sweater and carrying his bundle [laughs] bundle of firewood under his arm he said he found people walked past him. German soldiers and civilians and nobody gave him a second look.
JH: So, so Frank let’s maybe jump ahead a few days. Your first encounter with friendly Dutch people.
FD: Yes.
JH: Across the border.
FD: Yes.
JH: How did that come about?
FD: Well, I was pretty all in after four nights of, of walking and as I’ve described I was cold, wet and so on. And walking along this particular road I saw there was a farmhouse quite close to the road. And so I walked around the back of this house and there was a farmyard immediately behind. And on the far side of the farmyard was a large barn and it had a big doorway at one end, big enough for a horse and cart to be driven through. But that was all tightly secured and I couldn’t get in there. But walking around the side I did find a side door that was open which admitted me into a storeroom of some sort with farm tools and all sorts of things in it. And it had a ladder which clearly went up in to the hayloft. So I clambered up the ladder. Got into the hayloft and the hayloft was about a quarter full of hay. And I took my outer garments off. My battle dress top and my trousers and shoes and so on and hung them up on a beam hoping they’d dry a little bit. Then I dug myself down right into the hay pile and fell, fell sound asleep. And I was awakened probably about 9 or 10 o’clock in the morning by the sound of a fighter plane diving down and firing its machine guns and cannon at something very close to the farmhouse. And then it pulled up and went around and I think it came in a second time and fired further bursts. Anyway, I remained where I was in my hay pile. And then I heard cautious footsteps coming up the ladder into the hayloft and I, the circumstances were such that I was quite sure that whoever these, this person or these people were they were afraid of something that was going on outside. They’d come up to hide where I was and that gave me a little bit of encouragement. And then I heard excited whispering going on just three or four paces away from where I was lying and I realised that whoever these people were they’d found my battledress and top hanging on the beam. So, I came out of my hiding place in the hay and frightened the daylights of two sixteen year old boys. There was I just in my underpants and a vest [laughs] But they were very quick on the uptake and they said, ‘Be stil. Be stil.’ Stil being the word for quiet in Dutch. And, and they said, ‘You. You Tommy pilot?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And they said, ‘We have German, German soldiers in the farmhouse.’ And what had happened was that this patrolling fighter had been flying around looking for vehicles moving on the road that it could attack. And it had seen a German army truck coming and indeed it had come and attacked it and wrecked it and the Germans in it had run for their lives. And the nearest shelter they could see was this farmhouse. They burst in through the front door of the farmhouse and as they came in through the front door these two young lads left by the back door and ran across to the barn where I was. Then some discussion ensued between us and one of these boys spoke a little English and he said, ‘My father is school master in the town. Perhaps he knows someone who could help. I will go to my father tonight and see if we can. See if something can be arranged.’ And I suppose it was about that time that the two boys had gone back down into the farmhouse to confirm that the German soldiers had departed. I think the house, the farmer’s wife had given them a cup of coffee a piece or something and they’d pushed off on foot to go back to report to their headquarters that they’d lost a truck. Anyway, that’s, that’s how it started to develop. And it was as a consequence of this lad going into the town and finding his father that someone was alerted to come and see me.
JH: So, so that someone was part of the Resistance.
FD: Yes.
JH: Movement.
FD: Yes. He was.
JH: And was the plan to try and get you back behind the lines?
FD: Yes. It was.
JH: But in fact you, you didn’t did you? You got involved actively with the Resistance.
FD: Well —
JH: How did that come about?
FD: Well, it must have been at about that time that a communication link had been established across the River Rhine because up to the Rhine the southern part of Holland had been liberated. And the Rhine was actually the front line.
JH: That was the front.
FD: That was the front. And this was a big obstacle for the likes of me because the Germans were pouring reinforcements in to the opposite bank to oppose any crossing of the Rhine. So that it became quite difficult just to get to the water’s edge. Well, it would be difficult for me to get to the water’s edge to swim across the other side. And the Rhine was very wide there. It’s about a quarter of a mile wide getting on for, I was going to say [unclear]
JH: Was there another complication in that the remnants of Market Garden —
FD: Yes.
JH: Operation.
FD: Yeah.
JH: The British paratroopers.
FD: Yes.
JH: Hundreds of them.
FD: That’s right.
JH: Were also trying to get —
FD: That’s right.
JH: Across the Rhine.
FD: That’s right. I was about twenty kilometres or so from Arnhem where all that was happening and I never determined any exact figure but probably something like four or five hundred British and Canadian airborne troops were in hiding in in the neighbourhood of Arnhem. Preferring not to be taken prisoner and with no possibility of getting back over the river. And these were quite an embarrassment to the Dutch because they had to find food for them, they had to find civilian clothes for them and just places to hide. And so one of our — do you know about MI9?
JH: Yes.
FD: This particular man in MI9 established a contact point in the power station at Nijmegen which had a private telephone line to the power station at Ede just outside Arnhem on our side of the Rhine. And messages could be passed to and fro. I knew nothing of all this going on of course but the word came from the other side that we were to stay where we were and keep, keep — keep hidden because the British would be coming over in the fullness of time.
JH: So, were you recruited by the British Special Operations or by the Dutch Resistance?
FD: Just by the Dutch. Just by the Dutch people.
JH: And you had to establish a bone fides.
FD: Yes. Exactly. Yes. One went through this.
JH: So what sort of operations were you involved in with the Dutch?
FD: In the main just the supply drops for when they were supplied by, with guns, ammunition and food. You know.
JH: Was that 100 Group that carried out those operations?
FD: In the main yes but when I enquired as to who, in fact this was after the war and I asked or made enquiries. They said, ‘Oh, you were almost, almost certainly supplied by 38 Group. Not 100 Group.’ I think 100 Group were dropping secret agents. I think in the main dropping secret agents all over Europe but 38 Group was partially concerned with dropping supplies.
JH: What would be a typical operation that you were involved in? Give me an example of — was it a weapons drop? Did you have to have torches out there?
FD: Oh yes.
JH: And radio contact.
FD: We had no, no radio contact. In fact, when I was interrogated they said to me, ‘Do you know the Morse code?’ And I said, ‘Oh yes.’ And they said, Can you send and receive messages with a lamp?’ And I said, ‘Yes. Not very well but yes I can.’ And, well there was, they then thought that I would be quite useful if I did take part in one of these or in a series of drops. At first one would lay out a flare path party. A flare path which would consist of perhaps sixty err six men lined along the edge of a strip of of a field. Each equipped with a flashlight and being spaced I suppose about fifty metres apart. So you’d have perhaps six men with flashlights forming a line. And then I would be out to the left of the up wind end of the line with another torch and as, as the bomber approached us I would, I would be flashing the letter Z for Zone. It being the dropping zone.
JH: Did you have a special code for that night that was?
FD: Yes. Yes. Yes, we did.
JH: Communicated by the BBC.
FD: Yes.
JH: Yeah.
FD: I see you’ve read the book.
JH: I sure have.
FD: Yes. The BBC would read out these phrases after the 1 o’clock news at midday and these phrases would mean nothing to people who were not in the know. But we used to listen for a phrase which in Dutch was, ‘What has Peter’s brother brought?’ That was what we had to listen for. ‘What has Peter’s brother brought?’ That meant then we were going to have a drop that night. And then at, after the 6 o’clock BBC news they would repeat that. ‘What has Peter’s brother brought?’ And then they would quote another phrase which I cannot remember at the moment which told us at what period of the night they would come. Either between nine, 9 o’clock and midnight. Or midnight and three in the morning. Or three in the morning until six in the morning. Something like that. So that confirmed that they really were coming and you knew the period of the night. And then off we would go. Out into the, out into the fields. It was probably the best part of an hour’s walk to get out to our dropping zone. And there it was. And we would line up the chaps and I’d be there with my torch and we would establish lookouts in the general area so that if inquisitive people got near we could either stop them or at least warn the people at the dropping zone that there were people around.
JH: What about German patrols? Did they —
FD: Well, this is the sort of situation we were, we were concerned about. I don’t or we never or at least I never heard that there were patrols as such. But there was a radar station quite close to where we did all this. And the Germans manning the radar station might well have been very curious [laughs] But we managed successfully. Yeah.
JH: And I gather as, as time went on there were some nasty incidents.
FD: Yes.
JH: As the front was, was moving.
FD: Yes.
JH: Could you tell us about some of those?
FD: Well, in, in February 1945 it was becoming evident to us and of course to the Germans that preparations were being made on the other side of the River Rhine for a crossing. And we could guess within ten miles or so as to where this was going to take place because just by looking at a map you could see where there were roads pointing to particular localities. With bridges perhaps that might be useful to capture or even if they didn’t have existing bridges where a bridge, a floating bridge could be put across and so on. So you would guess fairly generally where a particular locality was likely. And this is exactly what happened. But because of that the Germans of course were bringing more and more reinforcements in to the neighbourhood against the day when all this was going to happen. And on this particular day a German truck arrived at the farm. And I suppose there was something like twenty or so German soldiers there and they announced to the farmer and his wife that they were going to be billeted there. And the officer and the sergeant took over the front parlour of this little house and the, some of the troops were billeted actually in the barn and more of them were billeted in another barn also adjoining the general area. And, and life, life proceeded. And each evening the Germans would come into the kitchen of the house for warmth apart from anything else because the kitchen stove was kept going with wood. With a wood fire all the time. And the German soldiers fraternised with the family and perhaps one should make the point that the farmer and his wife had ten children which was quite a significant number. And by this time there were in fact seven of us allied aircrew in hiding in a hiding place in the hayloft of the barn which in fact was actually joined to the farm house and our hiding place was over the kitchen. And when the German soldiers were chatting up the family and having conversations we could hear what was being said and what was going on. We were as close as that. And of course at night when people were in their various sleeping places again they were not, not very far away. Oh one might mention that they’d driven their truck into the barn itself and two or three of the soldiers actually slept in the truck with a bit of straw I suppose to provide a bit of a mattress. But anyway it was a pretty cosy situation with seven of us there, twelve of the family including the ten children and ten or so soldiers sleeping in different parts of our barn. And that must have gone on, I suppose for about ten days or so. And all the time we were —
JH: Very tense situation because you were in a way putting the Dutch family in —
FD: Yes.
JH: Real jeopardy.
FD: Yes.
JH: If you were caught.
FD: Yes.
JH: How did you come to terms with that?
FD: Well, we did come to terms with it and more particularly they came to terms with it but it was, one could tell the stress was starting to tell. It’s interesting that it was the farmer’s wife and the eldest daughter who in fact were less nervous than the old farmer himself. Yeah.
JH: Very brave people.
FD: Very very brave.
JH: Yes. And I believe you became lifelong friends.
FD: Absolutely.
JH: With these Dutch families.
FD: Yes.
JH: And the Resistance people.
FD: Yes. In fact this very evening I may be talking to a granddaughter who is over here from Holland and there was a message on my telephone last night saying, ‘Frank, we cannot contact you. We will call you again tomorrow.’ So —
JH: Marvellous. Yes.
FD: It’s kept alive up to this day.
JH: Yes. What about liberation? What, what happened when you were liberated?
FD: Well, that was extraordinary.
JH: British army.
FD: Yes. Well. You see it must have been about on about the 26th or 27th of March the British and Canadian armies did cross the River Rhine and established, they established a bridgehead over on our side. And there was a fair bit of fighting going on. And I think it was on the night of the 28th [pause] Yes. There was quite a lot of gunfire. Artillery fire coming down in our neighbourhood and in our hiding place we would, oh we propped up some of the pantile tiles which were on the roof of our hiding place so that we could peer out. And we could see one farmhouse out to the east of us that was burning and another one on the western side that had part of its roof blown off by, by shellfire. And we could see shells landing on the main road which was about a half a mile away. That was quite interesting because as the shells hit the road you get a great jet of fire along the asphalt surface as they, as they detonated. It was a curious spectacle. Anyway, and there was rifle or machine gun fire and so on. And then I suppose probably about 8 o’clock in the morning or something there was a tap on the trap door in to our hiding place. And we opened it up and there was the farmer down below and he said, ‘Boys, the Germans have gone. The Germans have gone. They’ve pulled out.’ And he said, ‘We think there is a Tommy tank. A Tommy tank on the road.’ So, we all clambered out of our hiding place and I and Jim Strickland, the Australian, and Joe Davis, one of the Americans set off across the fields to the main road. And there we saw a British armoured car sitting on the road. And this armoured car had a little six pounder gun in a gun turret and it was sort of waving. Waving around looking at things. And we walked towards this vehicle and I’m not sure whether we had our hands up or anything. Anyway, we walked towards it feeling very nervous and got right alongside it and no sort of recognition was given from within. And I remember banging on the side of this thing with its engine running. I’m told these Humber armoured cars could go as fast backwards as they could go forwards and clearly it was on reconnaissance looking to see where the German front line was when, as we approached. Anyway, subsequent to my banging on the side the steel lid on the gun turret opened and out came what I recall as a huge moustache. And I said to this guy, ‘My name’s Dell,’ or something, ‘RAF. And I’ve been in hiding here for a little while. And this is my American friend Joe Davis and Jim from Australia and we’ve all been hiding together here.’ And this chap said, ‘Jolly good show. Jolly good show.’ And it was the Household Cavalry. Which is a very aristocratic bit of the British army. In fact curiously I was watching on television last night this celebration for the Queen’s birthday. I don’t know if you saw it.
JH: I’ve recorded it. Yeah.
FD: Did you?
JH: For my grandson. We’re going to have a look. Yeah.
FD: You’ll see the household cavalry there. Anyway —
JH: Oh, that’s marvellous.
FD: They then radioed back to their headquarters and a vehicle called a Duck W came to our rescue. I don’t know if you know a duck. Duck.
JH: Amphibious.
FD: Yes.
JH: Vehicle.
FD: That’s right.
JH: Yes.
FD: Yes. It came and picked up me and the American and Jim and then we, in it we went back to the farmhouse to meet the other guys. And that was really a very poignant moment in time and in our lives because —
JH: And I would think the next poignant moment would be reuniting with your family.
FD: Well, yes, you see that was something because in this, once we were all together well having literally endured all these dangers at the Prinzen’s farmhouse suddenly in the space of five minutes or so we simply had to say goodbye to them, you know. We’d got to get out of here because for all one knew the Germans might have staged another counter attack or something and the British would have been forced back. Anyway we got out and we were taken.
JH: Ushered to the rear.
FD: Ushered to the rear. And we were taken to this little town. Now, what’s it called? I can’t remember. Anyway, there we were given accommodation and we were interrogated. Oh yes, and quite early on they said, ‘Perhaps you’d like to send a telegram to your family to say that you’re safe and well,’ Because we realised that they would never have been told anything of us being around and being alive. All they would have had was a telegram the day after we were shot down that we were missing. That’s all, all that they would have known. So we were each given a telegram form to fill in which we did and, and that was that. And then a day or two later we were flown back to this airfield. Northolt. Just outside, well not far from Heathrow in London. And again we were exhaustively interrogated and given another telegram form to send to the family which we all did. And in my case I simply said, you know knowing we’d already sent them one from Holland I sent this one saying, “Hope to be home tomorrow. If not tomorrow probably the next day.” Or something like this. In the event they never got the one from Holland so the first news my family had that one was alive at all was this very nonchalant one saying hopefully home today. But if not tomorrow. Today. If I’m not home today I’ll come tomorrow. That was the first they knew that I was alive.
JH: After what? Six months?
FD: Six months. Six months.
JH: My goodness.
FD: Yeah. That was, that was really quite something. Yeah. My, my mother was of a religious turn of mind and she thought it was all a miracle. Perhaps it was. Anyway —
JH: What did they, what were they thinking in that time? That you had survived or —
FD: Well —
JH: That maybe not.
FD: My, my mother was hopeful. Yes. My father having been in the ‘14/18 war and seen the sort of things that went on he was, he was more pessimistic. Yeah. But however, there we are. But it was quite a thing linking up with them. As you can well imagine.
JH: Well, Frank that’s an amazing story.
FD: Well —
JH: And, but maybe we should start to wind up this interview. It’s been fantastic.
FD: Well, obviously I —
JH: But you carried on flying.
FD: Well, yeah.
JH: Tell us about that.
FD: Well, I could tell you a little bit about that but let me tell you, I don’t know if you’re familiar with this book. It’s called, “Operation Hurricane.”
JH: No. I’m not. Who’s the author of that?
FD: A chap called Marc Hall.
JH: Yes.
FD: I suppose about five years ago I was in the UK and I got a phone call from this chap and he said, ‘My name’s Marc Hall,’ and he said, ‘I’m doing some research with a view to writing a book about Operation Hurricane.’ And I said, ‘Oh yes.’ And he said, ‘The world at large doesn’t know that the night you were shot down was the greatest air operation carried out by Bomber Command in the whole of the war.’ It was the greatest operation carried out by Bomber Command in the whole of the war.
JH: In terms of the number of heavy bombers in the air or the success of the targeting?
FD: Yes. The total success of the total operation. He said, ‘You know that the principal target being bombed that night was Duisburg but every sort of device had been used to confuse the enemy. Like you flying over Duisburg and then continuing on to Berlin because the Germans weren’t expecting you to go on to Berlin. And therefore they were confused and starting chasing your lot instead of chasing the heavy, British heavy bombers that were then turning for home and so on.’ And they put up an artificial radar, the British put up an artificial radar screen broadcast by 100 Group aircraft along the Dutch and German coast. Just to confuse things in that way. And I think there were two if not three minor bombing attacks quite apart from Duisburg. I think we bombed Hamburg and Brunswick and Berlin of course. All at the same, virtually at the same time as Duisburg. Just to confuse the Germans. And then they said and the Germans were pretty totally confused. I think we put up something like two thousand three hundred, well I say two thousand three hundred aircraft, two thousand three hundred sorties were flown. Some of them flown twice in the night. In the same night that Duisburg was bombed.
JH: Is that —
FD: But out of two thousand five hundred or something I think we lost something like twenty seven aircraft which was an extraordinarily low percentage of loss. Anyway —
JH: So, that must give you some real satisfaction you played a key role in that operation.
FD: Indeed.
JH: And, you know you were shot down.
FD: Yes.
JH: And you lost Ron.
FD: Yes.
JH: But that, that is quite interesting.
FD: Yes.
JH: That that is one of the most important raids.
FD: Indeed. And I said to him, ‘Well, how did you pick on me?’ And he said, ‘Well, the Bomber Command Diary and your squadron backed up by your squadron, your Squadron Diary as well show that yours was the only Mosquito shot down that night.’ And he said, ‘I’ve been at pains to contact some member of the family of every aircraft that was lost that night.’ And in a way he did quite a Christian act I think.
JH: Yes.
FD: In tracing where each of them, each aircraft —
JH: Yes.
FD: Had come down that night. And he’d contacted the families of each, each aircraft that had been lost just as he’d contacted me.
JH: Some sort of closure as they say.
FD: Anyway, we met up after his initial phone call. We had a natter. We linked up and had a few cups of coffee and talked about it and I said, ‘Well, now look. You’re, you’re about to put together a book. I’ve had some interest in putting a book out myself and I wouldn’t want to run into any legal battle with you if you’re going to press ahead of me.’ And he said, ‘Oh don’t you worry about that because,’ he said, ‘Anything you put out will supplement anything in my book and if anything it will boost more sales of my book.’ So he said, ‘Don’t worry. You go ahead. You publish.’ And it took me another three, three or four years to get to the point at which —
JH: Same publisher, your book, as “Operation Hurricane.” Is it the same publisher?
FD: Just underneath —
JH: I think it is. Yes.
FD: Take a quick look. [pause] Yes. It’s the same publisher.
JH: Yes.
FD: The publisher is Fighting High Limited. Yeah.
JH: Yes.
FD: Yes.
JH: Frank, why don’t, this is absolutely fantastic and we could go on for hours and I think I’ve broken the rules for the length of time for the interview.
FD: Oh no. No. I’m sorry if I’ve —
JH: No. This is amazing. So, so after the war. Post war.
FD: Yeah.
JH: Marriage.
FD: Yes.
JH: BEA airline pilot.
FD: Well, there’s a little story there in that in the latter stages of the war people were invited to apply for permanent commissions in the RAF. And this, this was my lifelong ambition to be in the permanent RAF if I could achieve this. And so I applied and then when my demobilisation date came up — no news about a permanent commission. So, I liked, I liked the actual flying of aeroplanes. I was also fascinated by the technology that went into it. So, as you’ve already identified I applied to get in to British European Airways which, which I did. And let me see. That would have been, would have been the winter of 1945, nineteen forty —
JH: ’46.
FD: ’46. Yes.
JH: Yes.
FD: ’46/47 which was a miserable time in the UK and so on. So, having joined BEA it so happened that a notice appeared on the notice board one day saying applications are invited to fill the vacancies in a new airline to be set up in Cyprus. And Isabel and I had not long been married and the thought of sunshine and the Mediterranean and all that appealed greatly to her so I applied and was accepted.
JH: I bet you weren’t the only applicant for that job.
FD: Yes. I got it.
JH: Well done.
FD: Yes. Now, the reason I’m explaining this is that we got out to Cyprus and we got very well established out there and the did sun shine and there were nice beaches for swimming and there was no rationing. And life was pretty good although we, I must say we worked very very hard but that’s by the by. But while I was there my permanent commission in the RAF came through. Two years after the end of the war. And one then had a very difficult decision to make. Did one take up one’s permanent commission in the RAF? Or did one stay in the airline? I can assure that was very very difficult. However, my wife decided that we would stay in the airline [laughs] so we did five years in Cyprus.
JH: Sounds like it was a good decision.
FD: Yes. It worked out exceedingly well.
JH: Yes. Yes.
FD: Because [pause] the world doesn’t know about these things but British European Airways or the nucleus of British European Airways was a bit of Transport Command in the RAF at the end of the war. And in the company’s charter it said, you know, you are commanded to develop airline routes in Europe and in the British Isles etcetera etcetera and it would be born in mind that in a national emergency or war BEA would again revert to being in Transport Command in the RAF.
JH: Ah. That’s interesting.
FD: Yeah. The world doesn’t know or has forgotten that this is so. So, anyway after flying on the line as they described for ten years or so I applied for a management appointment and got it and became what they called a flight manager. Each type of aircraft. We had a huge, well, I say huge, we had a big flight of Vickers Viscount aircraft and not long after the war TAA had Viscounts here in Australia. We had a good link with them. And I became a flight manager on one of the Viscount flights. And then we got a bigger version called the Vanguard and I became a manager of one of those things. And then we got jets. We got these things called Tridents which the Americans copied it by building Boeing 73 — 727s with three engines in the tail [unclear] Three engines in the tail. And it, I was in the, in the, we had three flights of Tridents. I had one of them and I was on, in the one that was closely connected with technical development which I did for a time and well all that becomes a bit complex and I could hold forth for another hour on that.
JH: But I see from the photo that you were a royal pilot.
FD: Yeah.
JH: At one stage. How did that come about?
FD: Well, I was fortunate because I was, I was fairly close to the top of the management pyramid that I I —well there were only two, two chaps above me. But the two fellows, these two fellows that were there, the flight operations director and the chief pilot had both just completed conversion courses to fly on new aircraft called the Lockheed Tristar. And Buckingham Palace wanted to charter an aeroplane but she could have gone on the, she was going on a state visit to Finland and she could have gone on the Concorde for example. But the world doesn’t know this but Buckingham Palace are very careful with their money and they don’t spend a penny more than they absolutely have to and they decided the Concorde would be too expensive. They decided a 747 would be too expensive but a Trident would be ideal. So I got the job of flying the Queen on the state visit to Finland. And I had five of the most memorable days of my life I suppose. Flying her around Finland and bringing her back home again. Yeah.
JH: Marvellous.
FD: Yeah.
JH: Well, Frank I think it’s time for a cup of tea.
FD: Yeah.
JH: And lets close this off. Thank you very much. I’ve really enjoyed this. And maybe we’ll carry on after hours here. Thank you very much indeed.
FD: Well, you’ve been very very kind and very supportive. Thank you so much for what you’ve done. You’ve gone to a lot of trouble.
JH: Not at all. A real pleasure.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Dell
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Horsburgh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ADellFH160520
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:57:30 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Dell’s father was a member of the Royal Flying Corps during the First World War and so it was perhaps inevitable that Frank would share the fascination with aviation and a desire to fly. As a teenager Frank witnessed the aerial battles of the Battle of Britain overhead and so he volunteered as soon as he was old enough. After training in the US Frank was retained as an instructor. On his return to the UK he was posted to 692 Squadron at RAF Graveley flying Mosquitoes. His navigator was killed when the plane was attacked. Frank managed to evade for several days despite many close calls and on one occasion while hiding he witnessed a launch of a V-2 from a forest clearing. He sought shelter in a Dutch farmhouse from where he joined with the Resistance and other allied aircrew until liberation.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1945-02
692 Squadron
aircrew
evading
Mosquito
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Graveley
Resistance
shot down
training
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/288/3443/PKroeseFW1702.2.jpg
d1312998e636d40c61cbd74768886b69
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/288/3443/AKroeseFW170829.1.mp3
f87c89b9ef839dbc0503dcb2f14574d3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kroese, Frederik
Frederik Kroese
Frederik W Kroese
F W Kroese
F Kroese
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Frederik Willem Kroese (b. 1924), a memoir, a cartoon and an empty packet of V cigarettes. Frederik Kroese was a member of the Dutch resistance. He acted as a courier and helped airmen evade capture.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frederik Kroese and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Kroese, FW
Language
A language of the resource
English
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Netherlands
Great Britain
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RVDP: I am Ron Van de Put, IBCC volunteer, about to interview Mr Frederik Willem Kroese who took part in the resistance as a member of team oft hulp aan during the Second World War. Mr Kroese was, among other things, involved in making and disseminating fake IDs, secret messages, transporting arms and ammunition and helping aircrew escape from the Germans and cross the border to safety. Mr Kroese, thank you very much for agreeing on doing this interview. As a start could you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
FK: Yes. Thank you, Mr Van de Put. I was born in 1924 and when I was sixteen the war started in my country. I awake one morning in May 1940 when the bridge near my home was blown up and when the Germans came in. I was too young to do something at that moment but it was not so that from the first day the Germans were in the Netherlands everything was wrong. Every time it became a bit more worse. That there were things the Jews couldn’t do, as a people couldn’t do [railway man?] and so and so when the war went, got farther we more remarked that we had to do something and as a little group we couldn’t fight to Germans but what we could do was to make more — less safe the Germans in being in our country. And so, giving them little stitches. When I was in the third, third year of the war I got a message on Friday to report on Tuesday at the office with a small bag with clothes and toothpaste to go to work in Germany and that was, for me, the moment that I thought — no. That will not be. As you don’t know directly a place to dive, to hide yourself I first went to a friend who was sure as he was following a course for the school teachers he was safe not to be called up by the Germans. I got there but it was a house near the school, my secondary school, where two hundred Germans lived and I was at four metre from them to hide me. The things I did there was pulling potatoes and making coffee and other things. Quite boring. So, I was glad that a man who brought us two hundred copies of a secret volkpaper said to me, ‘Would you come to my place there in the resistance and you could do good work. ’ I said, ‘Oh yes. Please.’ And I went there. Afterwards, I realised me, that the man who asked me that was the son of the particular, particular secretary of Her Majesty Queen Wilhelmina but in war we were just friends. We became friends to fight to enlarge the [pause] to make it the Germans more danger. More difficult to do what they intended to do. So, I started in 1943 at the place [Oldpaten?] and what we call landgoed [?] near my native town.
RVDP: So, an estate.
KR: An estate.
RVDP: Yes.
KR: And seventeen hectares and I could do interesting work and work which made the work of the Germans difficult. First, I became head of the correspondence and connecting group. There were thirteen what we call couriersters. Girls between seventeen and twenty-five who were selected to bring reports from all very little towns to me so that I could bring them farther so that the BBC in London got acquainted with it. After, in the Netherlands, there were the interior forces of the Netherlands and they were divided into sections. The armed section and a non-armed section but there was not a sharp section. When needed I had to go take rifle and to go to join a group. But first was the most of the work was reporting things that happened in the surroundings. And for instance, we had a house very close to the railway at Amersfoort so that we could report what goods were transported by the Germans on the, of the railway. For instance, tanks and other for the Atlantic Wall. That gave us the intention to say if we blow up the railway it would restore the interest of the Germans to bring tanks by the railway to the Atlantic Wall. So, we did. But the Germans were very angry and said, ‘If, in the future, there’s a new attack the house that’s nearest to the point where the railway is blown up — the house will be burned and the inhabitants will be shot down. ’ That was a difficult point for us for it means that the inhabitants of the Netherlands, our friends, nearly became our enemies as we were suspected if a Dutch man who was very close to the Allies saw one of the resistance men he thought, ‘not my home.’ So it was very difficult to go on with the job as the people were anti-resistance man. Became anti-resistance man to save their home and their children. We thought about this two days but then came to the conclusion we must go on otherwise the resistance movements ends and that was not the intention. Certainly not. So, we changed the place where we made the attack. Very good hidden by bush and so and but it was near a house with two parents, forty five, forty three and four children — four to seventeen. And one and a half kilometre farther there was a small house with two people — eighty-five and eighty-three. It doesn’t mean that it is not verschrikkelijk.
RVDP: That’s ‘terrible.’
KR: Terrible. But war is terrible and the choice is to choose for the less terrible thing. So, we thought two people older than eighty can better die than six people in the glow of their life. We then found that the Germans got a bit of [unclear].
RVDP: They were more skilled in something.
KR: They were skilled in repairing the railways.
RVDP: They got better at it.
KR: Yeah. So it first took two days. Then one day. Then at least only one morning. So we made a decision that it was no more worse to blow up the railway as the damage we caused was not interesting enough for what we intended. That was one of the things I could do. But as I said I, we got news to the BBC and when we asked for dropping of weapons we had contact with the BBC and at thirteen hours Dutch time we got messages from Radio Orange and at certain time I heard, ‘The apple juice will not be eaten very hot.’ And we thought, ‘Ah that’s for us.’ Tomorrow at about 11 they will drop a container with weapons in the surroundings of [unclear]. In our surroundings. Unfortunately, it happened that a keen German general also knew a great deal of the [pause] of the [pause] —
[Recording paused]
KR: I was looking for the word. The code. For the German General Guderian knew quite a lot of this code. Therefore, I myself think that about sixty percent of the droppings came in German hands and not reach us. That was very bad but we couldn’t help that. In such a container was found with the weapons was a little book in six languages and at the end several voorbeeld.
RVDP: ‘Examples’.
KR: Examples how to deal with them.
RVDP: So, a manual.
KR: A manual.
RVDP: With which you, the people who used it, the contents — knew what to do with it.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: For demolition. Arms. Ammunition. A manual.
KR: Yes. And that also when we had such a dropping [unclear] of one of our other points and that was Baron von Hagren from [unclear] on an estate of twenty-two hectares where they had to bring the weapons. I did that in bags at the end, both ends of the bicycle and the question was do you go by the main road that’s thirteen kilometres or do you take second or third plan roads so you could perhaps avoid meeting Germans but that was twenty-five kilometres? Well, in short, I decided. I didn’t know if I was lazy but I decided to take the shortest way. And all again good. I came to Mr Van Hagren and I gave him the weapons. I had a message for him but he didn’t want it — to receive from me. He said, ‘That fall on the floor.’ I said, ‘But if the Germans here in the surroundings, he only sees that something is dropping then I, if I put it in your hands — ’ ‘Drop it.’ I think it was that if he was caught by Germans he could swear on the grave of his mother I didn’t receive any paper form or anything from this man. Okay. From my own [pause] wandering I found that the second part, going back was more difficult as due to the hunger winter we had lots of people came from north to the west. That means from Svala to Amersfoort on their bicycle with potatoes, with food. And so, and I had an empty case and people said, ‘How this man has not received anything from the farmers? ’ So, I said to Mr Van Hagren, ‘Next time I need six to eight stones to put in my luggage to be able to drive my bicycle as hard as the people with food.’
RVDP: So, people could tell it was loaded.
KR: Yeah.
RVDP: You had bags full and you wouldn’t stand out.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Because that’s what you’re telling us.
KR: You musn’t —
RVDP: It was important not to stand out. To keep secrecy.
KR: Yes. That is what I say. If they remark you it’s not good in war. Never put your hat in the light. One of the main things for the resistance movement was to be as close as giving less names as possible and less addresses as possible. Important is that. So few people as possible should know anything from you and from your comrades. All must be done in secrecy. I preserved it when I came by bicycle out of the woods and the German came and asked me my bicycle. I had a band on my arm that I was part of the [unclear] of the town but that wasn’t important for him. I had papers in German and Dutch that I needed my bicycle. That too wasn’t important for him. So, I must walk. And in that case the resistance movement is in alarm for our courier which is not back in time and will he stand not to give addresses or names so that other people will be in danger. It was spare time. That means not to be allowed later than 8 o’clock in the evening on the streets and I came back at 9 o’clock in the evening but everyone was happy nothing happened and there was no name has fallen. Okay. That’s one of the securities that there was. Then another thing was, what we did, I spoke about the girls from seventeen to twenty-five who came from certain directions to give me the information. We could not allow that many times a day she would say, ‘Oh I have — my tyre is no good. I am later.’ So, we had made a decision that the bicycles of our girls must be perfect. So, we went to a salesman in the village. Asked him which people has bought, in the last months, a new bicycle. Then shifted it if it was a good Dutchman or a bad Dutchman and after that we went there. I think that was the man that asked me to join the resistance was in uniform, a German uniform. I myself had a police uniform and we went to a place where we knew they must have a new bicycle and I said to the man why we came, let me say it was a farmer. ‘Listen. This man is a German who needed a bicycle. If you tell me where your good bicycle is I will try to avoid that he goes there.’ So, tell me and we shall see if it happens, if it works.’ ‘Okay.’ As Henk was not a German but a Dutchman he, so he heard what I said perfectly what place the bicycle was but we played a game and so three or four minutes he was looking at a hay farm but I, in the farmhouse, in the stables and then suddenly after about four minutes he said, ‘Well’ and he went directly to the place he had heard that a good bicycle stand. We needed only the tyres so we threw the rest of the bicycle in the [unclear] of the estate. The water of the estate. Okay. So, worked our connections service. Another point. There came at the end of the war the Spitfires fired at German motor moves on the roads and they wanted to make a place to hide between the trees. And the German commander came and told us that he, or as he told the community, we were not a partner, that he needed three people to dig the roads. When he came back, he said, sorry. He heard there were no volunteers so then he [throwed?] and said, ‘Be sure that tomorrow you have three persons. Otherwise the secret police, our secret police, the Gestapo [ Gubz?] from Almelo and they will do their work.’ And we will know that that was very very awful work so we must prevent that the Gestapo should come. So, we gave the Germans three men to dig the holes. We could do that as not every German was em fanatic Hitler follower. Not SS and SA but he was a German who was called up for service and perhaps hated Hitler but he had to do his job and so he made us not too dangerous. We had the, previously, that our estate was apple trees and once in a fortnight we gave the Germans a bottle of apples. And so he was confident and we were confident. Therefore, I myself admired the work of the communist who had to do to hide people in a house in a row while we worked with estates where you much more easily could hide some people. Some events that I especially remember were [pause] at the end of the war pilots were very young. Eighteen. Nineteen years. Didn’t know too much. You know again there were too Britons which was in my home and I played chess with them also and gave them food. And I came above to take the plate back from the food and I saw that all the [unclear] soup was in the —
RVDP: So, he hadn’t eaten everything.
KR: He hadn’t even. He didn’t like it. And I said, ‘are you aware we are in the hunger of winter?’ ‘Tell her I don’t like it but don’t throw it away.’ Okay. Another was there were two Americans and a German car stopped before the house and as I say, ‘away. Away,’ and one of the Americans went to the window and pushed the curtain aside and I said, ‘are you mad?’ ‘I want to see how the enemy looks,’ he said. He didn’t realise the risk he gave to the people who hided him and tried to save his life so that he couldn’t became slachtoffer.
RVDP: A ‘victim’.
KR: A victim of the Germans. And so, it was different questions. The Australian, Eric Blakemore wrote to me many things for the happy memories of chess. And another from London wrote to me when I asked when they should go back the last lines to write a short sentence to me and he said, ‘know yourself to be true though canst be false to any man.’ That has astonished me. I thought, have I been untrue? Have I made a lie? What happens? But it should be something from Shakespeare or so and I don’t know exactly what he meant with it but he wanted that was his meaning. How he behaved himself. Okay. We had. I gave, as I say, the pilots and their helpers food so they must have a food card. Well another of our groups from the [pause] from the —
RVDP: Shall we pause for a moment?
KR: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
RVDP: Okay. Please continue.
KR: The resistance that were different groups with different tasks for when aeroplane was shot down. Our first work was — are we earlier than the Germans to find the people. And it’s the place where they were shot down a safe one. We couldn’t find. And poor German inhabited. The first thing was to take away the parachute and to give them new clothes. Or clothes anyway. Beyond that they should, for living, have food tickets and rations and an identity card. Other groups gave us the possibility to have blank tickets so that I could give them an ID card with stamps and so, and as I was and tried to be, to keep for myself some of these things I still could show my — the girls and school people how I worked with them. So I could show them a blank identity card and could show them how it worked. When it was full, our rations too, we had a group who made an attack in the evening at night at one of the burgh houses where the official guards were and they took them away for us so that we could give them to the flight people who were shot down, to keep them alive. When we sent them back they were some on a bicycle. Some we must hide other way. And we had an example that three Canadians were hidden under a beetroot car and some farmers said, ‘All full loaded,’ but they didn’t realise that underneath three Canadians must be able to breathe and to stay alive. It was so we had, I told you I played chess with them. We talked. In the meantime, we had good contacts but when there were about forty we had a group and there was another group again who sent them over the river and to hope that they were in the south of France where it was free already so they could join again.
RVDP: So, you had to make sure, when an aircraft was shot down, that you, as the resistance, were the first to make sure that the crew, if they were still alive, were safe.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: You took them with you in other clothes of course and you would hide them.
KR: Yes. Yes.
RVDP: And the resistance had all different teams and groups to make sure you had all the supplies you needed like the tickets for the rations, the food, the blanks, the blank cards.
KR: Yes. That was all. That was all good. Organised.
RVDP: Okay. And so, you hid them.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Until let’s say, there were enough saved.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: To take them across the border.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Which was done by another team.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: How long did it take normally for you to get enough?
KR: I thought that about six, seven weeks we needed but that was due to circumstances. So when it was perhaps more dangerous that we didn’t wait until we had forty but it was about thirty or so. But I know that my group certainly made twice the group over the rivers to free the Dutch ground. I don’t know how many places there were in the Netherlands but other groups did about the same. So I’m not able to say if it were one hundred, one thousand or five thousand. But we did our work so far as possible and as good as possible to save too — as much aeroplane soldiers were shot down we could bring alive to the border again. That was one thing that we, yeah, to a bit of resettlement and we did it. Organisation was good. I mean of course, the people we helped were thank to us that we did it so that was a good connection. And I must say that afterwards that was not so nice. We did not keep connections. But I think that comes through the circumstances. When I was in the resistance I didn’t find that I did a special thing to remember. So I must say that recently the official groups who organised the remembrance of seventy years. Seventy-two years. And so, the war was over and the end of the war in our country — the 4th of May. I was expelled to tell, or my daughter was expelled to tell why her father was allowed to lay a wreath on the monument in Amsterdam. And that’s the reason that at this moment we must give up from the dark what we still know what happened but then we didn’t. I never thought it is important or am I important. No. It was for our queen and our country we did it and to help as much as possible and dis-arrange the Germans. That was the work we did and why we did it for. And that’s still the reason that there’s not so much in remembrance. I reckon that I tried to save some of the things I worked with but not many people should have done it. And I have difficulty that I, for, for years I broke my neck and people thought oh that’s his end and throw away a part of the papers for that’s not interesting if you don’t know what it means. It is not interesting. And therefore it’s merely the sake of remembrance that I can tell but I’m happy now. I am happy that I have done it. So, I didn’t realise we did in the war. Now I realise it that how grateful the allies should be that, that our work we did in the war. But we didn’t do it to become in the lights. We did it to help where we thought it was our duty. For we were an ally too. Yes.
RVDP: Yeah. I think it was, as you just said very important to help our liberators liberate us.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Of course that’s what you as part of the resistance did.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: And like you just mentioned the Remembrance Day, our Remembrance Day and telling your story and making presentations at schools. That’s all, that’s also, the Brits say because it’s important to remember.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Lest we forget. And as we Dutch say — opdat we niet vergeten.
KR: Yes. But we finally realised it should be so important after sixty, seventy years that is and there were people now going to the schools and telling about what they find out about what I’ve seen. That they were born in 1944. I must say that it’s not really — and that is what they heard or what they think of it could have been. And then it is often more interesting or — they have done so much hero things. I can’t see what it was to me. I tell my story. Not from a book. I tell what I remember. That means what I perceived. What we did. What we had. What happened. And not to romanticise it and say if it should have been so it was nice. That’s not my story.
RVDP: No. From you it’s the real story and all those other people who didn’t really live through the war, weren’t born then and make presentations now. It’s more like hearsay. From you it’s the actual story.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: And that’s what makes it so very, very special. This interview.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: So, thank you again for telling us your story and it’s, it’s wonderful. So, thank you very much indeed.
KR: Yes. I regret that since six years I have the illness of Parkinson. So my ability even with —
RVDP: Balance.
KR: My balance.
RVDP: Yeah.
KR: Is not so good so I am —
RVDP: And it’s because of the Parkinson disease.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Yeah.
KR: I couldn’t do all I should like to do but what I can I will do and I am eager to do it. So if I could please you with anything further and with some help I can certainly do it.
RVDP: Thank you again Mr Kroese and you are a really very remarkable man. Like you already told you were born in 1924. You lived through the war. Did all these things you told us about. You have broken your neck four years ago. You are suffering from Parkinson disease but still you are here.
KR: Yes, and I think —
RVDP: You must be very very strong and you were able. And thank you for that.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: To, to —
KR: I think —
RVDP: To get still — yeah. Sorry.
KR: I think that I broke my neck as part of the Parkinson that I had. Small amounts of not knowing for it was when I went in after walking with the dog in my garden. And as I live now only fifty years I can’t, it can’t have been, couldn’t be I didn’t know why it was. So, I say it’s a part of the Parkinson that has been.
RVDP: Okay.
KR: But I say at the moment to people and veterans the years between ninety and a hundred are the nicest years of my life and I’m so happy I can do these things now.
RVDP: Yeah.
KR: I like to take part.
RVDP: I’m very happy to hear that and I wish you an awful lot more years of enjoyment.
KR: Thank you.
RVDP: So, thank you again for this interview.
KR: Thank you for yours.
Dublin Core
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AKroeseFW170829
Title
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Interview with Frederik Kroese
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:59:37 audio recording
Creator
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Ron van de Put
Date
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2017-08-29
Description
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Frederik Willem Kroese describes his work for the Resistance in the Netherlands following the German occupation.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Mal Prissick
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--London
Netherlands--Amsterdam
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940-05
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Conforms To
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Pending OH summary
evading
memorial
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/66/713/AMazziG170420.2.mp3
1f1d1840cb8c40e1e085dfeff71e408b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mazzi, Giglio
Giglio Mazzi
G Mazzi
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Giglio Mazzi who recollects his wartime experiences in Reggio Emilia.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Istituto per la storia della Resistenza e della società contemporanea (Reggio Emilia)
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Date
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2017-04-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mazzi, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GM: Very well.
DG: [laughs] Dunque partiamo dalle cose semplici: le chiedo dove e quando è nato.
GM: 18 febbraio ’27, Campogalliano. 18 febbraio, purtroppo ho 90 anni appena suonati.
DG: Complimenti [laughs].
GM: Purtoppo.
DG: Se ci può parlare un po’ della sua famiglia, del contesto appunto familiare. Cosa faceva la famiglia, cosa faceva lei prima della guerra, un po’ il quadro generale.
GM: Certo, certo. Non so, non credo [laughs].
GM: No, no tranquillo, vada pure. Quindi dicevamo: la sua famiglia e li contesto.
GM: Sì io sono di famiglia antifascista perché eh nei, negli anni dell’avvento del fascismo, 1921-22, mio papà e anche mio zio furono picchiati molto duramente dai fascisti. Tant’è che mio zio con una bastonata, avevan quelle mazze ferrate allora, gli hanno staccato un orecchio. Mio padre invece le ha solamente prese.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Ciao ciao.
GM: Ciao Baldini [?] [whispers]
DG: Non c’è problema tanto qua siamo tutti tra amici.
GM: Quindi io sono di famiglia antifascista, proprio per motivi familiari e anche perché evidentemente nella nostra zona, non so se voi siete di Reggio, la nostra zona risente ancora adesso, anche se adesso purtroppo alcune cose non ci convincono, del clima prampoliniano. La nostra è una città, una zona che ancora risente degli antichi trascorsi del Mulino del Po, di Prampolini eccetera eccetera. Quindi sono di famiglia antifascista.
DG: Ok, cosa faceva lei prima della guerra? Quanti anni aveva, come insomma, gli anni appunto, prima prima dell’inizio dello scoppio.
GM: Ecco esatto. Io ero studente dell’ITI (Istituto Tecnico Industriale), e durante la guerra qui siccome qui avevamo allora un grande stabilimento di guerra che eran le Reggiane e qui man mano che i giovani delle reggiane andavano al fronte loro chiedevano all’ITI, siccome noi conoscevamo il disegno tecnico, chiedevano all’ITI di mandare i propri studenti a supplire la mancanza di quelli che s’andavano al fronte. Io poi fui di questi. E questo avvenne alla fine mi pare, a metà, durante le vacanze del ’43 quando, mo anche prima, ci andai nel ’42. Però col grande bombardamento del 7-8 gennaio del ’44 eh le Reggiane furono polverizzate anche assieme alla parte nord della nostra città e naturalmente tutti i giovani che erano venuti nell’ITI e andati alle Reggiane, si trovarono a spasso. In quel momento lì, il comando, eh il comando fascista vedere tutta questa massa di giovani per strada era pericoloso per l’ordine fascista e con gli operai delle Reggiane, costituirono dieci centurie e fummo e fummo appunto reclutati e inquadrati nell’Ispettorato Provinciale del Lavoro, si chiamava proprio così, sulla falsa riga di quello che avevano già fatto anche in altri stati. Ispettorato del Lavoro, ci aveva mandato, ci avevano dato una, una tuta gialla con una bustina gialla in testa, sopra la bustina c’erano un piccone e un badile, puoi immaginare, il nostro compito era quello di sgombrare le macerie del bombardamento che era appena intervenuto. Però allora non c’erano le ruspe, allora c’avevamo una carriola e un badile, puoi immaginare che cosa potevamo sgombrare con questi attrezzi. La cosa però anche nell’Ispettorato non durò molto, perché nel successivo marzo ‘40, sì nel marzo ’44 arrivò l’ordine che tutti i centurioni dovevano recarsi sulla linea Gotica a fare le trincee per i tedeschi. Nessuno di noi, perché siccome da noi specialmente poi a Reggio, il clima era fortemente antifascista. Nessuno di noi si presentò per andare sulla linea Gotica. La mia centuria era stata destinata a Tombaccia di Pesaro, pensi un po’, che bel nome invitante che era, Tombaccia di Pesaro. Noi non ci presentammo, il giorno dopo, a casa nostra, anche se eravamo sfollati, il giorno dopo a casa nostra, c’era subito la camionetta della milizia per chiedere a mia mamma e ai miei genitori, eravamo sfollati in campagna a San Maurizio, dov’ero andato io, mia mamma era stata adeguatamente istruita ha detto ‘Ma mio figlio è andato sulla linea Gotica’ ‘No tuo figlio non è, non si è presentato’ e gli argomenti che si usavano allora, questi erano dei miei coetanei dei ragazzi di 16 – 17 anni, dissero a mia mamma e a mio papà ‘Se tuo figlio non si presenta entro tre giorni torniamo qui e vi ammazziamo tutti’ perché questi erano gli argomenti conclusivi dei discorsi. Per me, per mia fortuna, non tornarono più, perché avevano anche loro i loro problemi, perché noi. Io però in quel momento lì che, non ero ancora arruolato nelle formazioni partigiane però pensando che in quel momento, com’era arrivata la camionata quel mattino lì poteva arrivare anche alla sera, al giorno dopo, potevano tornare come avevano promesso. Ho detto ‘Qui bisogna che trovi una soluzione per dormire fuori casa’. Portammo un materasso sui tetti, eravamo già in giugno, si dormiva anche sui tetti. E per qualche settimana dormii lassù. Eh non era una cosa che poteva continuare molto però. E quando dormivo lassù di notte, sentivo giù nel porticato, che a Reggio la chiamiamo ‘porta morta’ non so se conosce questo termine. La porta morta l’è al porticato dove entravano i carri per buttare il fieno nel fienile. A gh’era cul portic, cul gros, quello era la porta morta. Io sentivo di notte dei rumori, sentivo di notte delle voci. Allora al contadino lì che ci ospitava dove eravamo sfollati, che si chiamava Piero chiesi ‘Ma scusa io ho questo problema da risolvere, non potrei mettermi in contatto con quelle voci che sento di notte?’ ‘Ma cosa vuoi parlar tu di questi problemi che non hai neanche 17 anni, pensa a studiare e dormire fuori casa, perché capisco che ne hai bisogno, vedremo come fare’. Naturalmente questa questa questo rifiuto a me è parso più non che fosse convinto delle mie esigenze ma che ci pensasse.
Unknown speaker: state registrando?
DG: Prego prego.
GM: Allora possiamo. E quindi pensando che, più che la sua impossibilità [coughs] fosse dettata dal fatto che noi a 16 anni e mezzo non potevamo avere i numeri per metterci in contatto con quelle voci sussurrate della notte. Il giorno dopo con un altro mio coetaneo di San Maurizio andammo in mezzo all’aeroporto e in pieno giorno, nonostante che la sentinella andava avanti e indietro abbiamo portato via una mitragliatrice sopra a un aereo tedesco. Signorine non è coraggio questo, questa è incoscienza dei 16 anni perché andare a portare via in pieno giorno. E tra l’altro noi pensavamo che prendere una mitraglia fosse come prendere questo astuccio. No, per portare via una mitraglia su un apparecchio ci vogliono due giorni di seghetto [unclear] perché son legate queste mitraglie, sono, sono solamente coi gas si scarico dell’apparecchio. Tra l’altro un blocco [?] l’abbiam portata via e l’abbiam portato a quello che ci aveva detto ‘Pesate a studiare’ a quel Piero, ci aveva detto, subito pensavano di ricevere qualche elogio insomma dire ‘Oh però voi due siete’ e invece ha detto ‘Siete due pazzi, siete due incoscienti, e non capite’ l’aeroporto da dove ero sfollato dista, era, è distante di un chilometro in linea d’aria, ‘Se i tedeschi si accorgono che avete portato via una mitraglia vengono qui e, tanto per cambiare ci ammazzano tutti’. E io dissi ‘Ma Piero ma io non è che io voglia fare l’eroe, né il Rambo nè il guerrigliero voglio solamente dimostrarti che potevamo avere i numeri per andare con quelle voci che noi sentiamo di notte. Lui ha detto ‘Voi siete due pazzi, due incoscienti, non capite niente, lascia lì sta mitraglia’, ma la mitraglia di un aereo è 40 chili non è uno scherzo, eh non è, non è questo astuccio, e ‘Lascialo lì, per il tuo problema di dormire fuori casa vedrò cosa posso fare’. Un mese dopo mi chiamò mi disse ‘Veh Giglio’, mi chiamavo ancora Giglio, non avevo ancora i nomi di battaglia ‘Veh Giglio se stanotte vuoi venire in un certo posto che mi disse, là a mezzanotte potrai veder in faccia quelle voci che senti di notte’. Naturalmente chi potevano essere quelle voci, quelle voci. Erano i miei amici sfollati lì con me, che io poi non sapevo che fossero già organizzati, però li conoscevo tutti, quando li avevo visti ‘Ah ma son queste le voci’. E quella fu, quella sera lì, assieme a quelli lì sbaragliammo il presidio, e questa è stata la mia prima azione da partigiano SAP, perché c’è grande, in pianura ci avevamo i SAP e i GAP. Fu la mia prima azione cioè abbiamo diciamo attaccato il presidio fascista che era sulla via Emilia a villa Masone, l’abbiamo attaccato, non abbiamo potuto finire l’azione perché poi è arrivato Pippo, ha buttato una bomba e poi è passata, arrivarono una colonna tedesca, una colonna di automezzi tedeschi da Reggio, anche quelli si misero a sparare, cioè un putiferio però poi abbiamo raggiunto lo stesso il nostro scopo perché il mattino dopo il presidio sgombrò e rientrò in città perché ha capito che lì a Masone era, c’era anche degli altri. Questo qua è stata poi successivamente, ho detto che questa è stata la mia prima azione e il mio inquadramento nelle brigate SAP, però alcuni, alcune settimane dopo, io poi non conoscete questa organizzazione, in ogni settore c’è un solo distaccamento GAP e 20 o 30 squadre SAP. La funzione del distaccamento GAP non è solo quello di fare i colpi più arditi, più, perché il GAP operava prevalentemente in città in pieno giorno i gappisti, ma venendo in quel giorno, la settimana dopo c’è stato il primo distaccamento GAP che non eravamo noi, che ha avuto uno scontro con la brigata nera nei prati della famiglia Vecchi di Gavasseto e i Vecchi che sono parenti con il nostro sindaco attuale, lì ci fu lo scontro in mezzo ai campi col primo distaccamento GAP, i distaccamenti GAP operavano tre persone, i GAP operavano sempre in tre, di questi tre uno non tornava mai indietro. Quella volta lì han visto arrivare i fascisti e i tedeschi, ma lì erano più i fascisti che i tedeschi e tentarono loro la sorpresa, uscirono dal rifugio perché era di quello sotto terra con le cotenne sopra, uscirono dal rifugio buttando bombe a raffica contro i fascisti, riuscirono a sottrarsi alla cattura tutti quanti feriti e malconci e si ritirarono su in montagna. Questo fu lo sbandamento del primo distaccamento GAP, primo distaccamento Gap era na grossa cosa per la resistenza della pianura perché oltre a fare i colpi in città in pieno giorno aveva anche l’incombenza di addestrare sia le squadre SAP del settore, sia i neofiti, quelli che entravano attualmente. Dissolto il primo distaccamento GAP i due comandi GAP e SAP della pianura pensavano a come rimpiazzare questo distaccamento perché aveva la funzione vitale per la resistenza in pianura e interpellarono un po’ tutte le squadre SAP del settore, come ho detto prima ce n’è una ventina che andava da Reggio fino a Rubiera, da Villa Gazzata fino alla collina. Noi avevamo, avevamo il settore sud-est della città, naturalmente una delle, una delle ricerche che sono state fatte furono indirizzate anche verso la mia squadra SAP. Noi eravamo in 6 nella squadra SAP. Mentre invece dicevo prima i distaccamenti GAP erano tre e attualmente proprio chi svolse la ricerca fu quel Piero che poi poi diventò Bloac, Bload che è il comandante del distaccamento. E naturalmente quando a noi chiesero se volevamo, almeno se c’erano almeno tre persone disposte a entrare a entrare nel distaccamento Gap è noi non volevamo assolutamente entrare nei GAP perché per noi i GAP, noi eravamo SAP in quel momento lì (Squadre Azioni Patriottiche) noi per noi sappisti, SAP i gappisti erano delle specie di kamikaze, gente votata alla morte che aveva, con pochissime possibilità di arrivare alla liberazione. Pensate signorine che mi ero ascoltate, che i primi gappisti, il gappismo si divise in due fasi: prima fase e seconda fase. Il gappismo prima fase è quello che operava solo in città e quindi la spia era micidiale solo in città, la seconda fase dei gappisti invece, che è quando sono entrato io nei gappisti operava e in città ma anche fuori. Fuori la spia ha la vita più dura perché i contadini della nostra zona erano tutti con la Resistenza, è stata una lotta unitaria la nostra, quindi nel mio settore che erano circa 120 – 130 famiglie tolto via quelle 8 - 10 famiglie che avevano dei figli o dei parenti nella milizia, tutti gli altri eran con la Resistenza. O perché c’è un giovane che si era arruolato o anche aiutandoli con indumenti o anche con dei soldi. Noi non volevamo quindi entrare, anche perché se pensate che ho detto prima la falange, eeeh il tasso di mortalità della prima falange, dei gappisti è otto o nove su dieci, 80 - 90% la mortalità e un terzo di questi morti erano suicidati, si suicidavano per non cadere vivi, come ho fatto io successivamente, per non cadere in, perché cosa succedeva se li catturavano? Ti torturavano a morte per farti parlare, poi non ti potevano lasciare in vita perché tu eri uno scomodo e pericoloso testimone per il post. Quindi il nostro impegno morale non scritto era quello di non farsi catturare vivi, tant’è che quando c’è stato lo scontro mio personale e chiudo perché altrimenti parlo solo io, stato il mio scontro personale con un ufficiale delle SS italiana che erano, oltre alle SS tedesche c’erano le SS italiane, che erano quegli ufficiali più fascisti, più fetenti, più criminali. Tant’è che quando ci siamo scontrati il giorno di Capodanno del ’45 sulla via Emilia a Villa Masone, lui aveva mandato avanti uno in divisa che faceva da esca e ci ha fatto da esca a noi altri due che stavamo pattugliando la via Emilia e lui era in borghese in mezzo ai ciclisti che abbiamo fermato perché quando si faceva un’azione di disarmo eh sulla pubblica via bisognava fermare i ciclisti, allora erano tutti i ciclisti, non c’erano le macchine. In mezzo a questi qui che abbiamo fermato provenienti da Reggio c’era questo giovane ufficiale delle, tenente delle SS italiane che aveva mandato avanti quello in divisa per fare, quindi una trappola ben congeniata. Noi naturalmente non abbiamo sospettato una cosa del genere, io e il mio compagno di sventura, che tra l’altro quel mio compagno di sventura è l’onorevole Otello Montanari del ‘Chi sa parli’ che qualcuno ne avrà sentito parlare. Noi non immaginavamo una trappola così, l’ho fermato io e gli ho detto con Otello, allora si chiamava Jack, Otello ‘Ascolta stai pronto’ io avevo una piccola pistola, poco, ero poco armato perché ero ero davanti avevo una tuta ero più snello. Lui invece aveva la mantellina, Jack (Otello) e sotto la mantellina aveva lo sten, il mitra tedesco, il mitra inglese. Ho detto ‘Fermo io come al solito’, tu stai pronto a darmi manforte se c’è bisogno’. Mi fermo e naturalmente io quando sono a distanza come da me a, a Giulia se ricordo bene, alla Giulia, butto la bicicletta in fondo al fosso e tiro fuori la pistola, e dice, davamo il mani in alto in due lingue ‘Mani in alto! Endaù [hände hoch]’ perché non sapevamo se era un tedesco o un italiano ‘Mani in alto! Endaù!’. E lui, il fascista, ha fatto un mezzo sorriso ha alzato le mani, non ci era parso troppo spaventato però nonostante questo noi non sospettammo niente. E noi per tranquillizzarlo gli abbiamo detto ‘Guarda che noi non ti vogliamo farti niente, tu hai una bella divisa calda’. Quel capodanno ragazze era un freddo che gelava la lingua in bocca ‘Allora tu hai una bella divisa calda, noi in pianura non ne abbiamo bisogno perché i contadini ci aiutano ma la tua divisa la mandiamo ai partigiani della montagna che là stanno gelando dal freddo’ e lui diceva ‘Sì, sì, sì’ ‘Allora vai giù per quella strada lì’. Siete della zona? No. Prima di Masone c’è una stradina che è via Roncadella, ‘Vai giù da Roncadella, vai giù di lì, avanti 100 metri ci dai la tua divisa poi tu vai dove vuoi’. E lò al dis ‘Oh ma c’è freddo adesso’ ‘Fa micca niente se c’è freddo, vai dentro a una stalla, vai in mezzo alle mucche e vedrai che’ eh è partito. Lui parte in prima posizione Jack (Otello) ci va dietro con la sua, con la sua artiglieria, la sua mantellina dietro, io prendo, prendo la bicicletta in fondo al fosso e poi mi metto in terza posizione per andare a prendere la divisa. Fatti pochi metri io sento dietro di me lo stridio di una catena, allora c’era poco olio da oliare le catene cri cri cri. Mi volto pensando [pause] mi volto pensando che fosse quello che qualche minuto prima ci aveva fatto un applauso perché tutte le volte che facevamo un disarmo ed era giorno sulla pubblica via c’era sempre qualcuno che diceva ‘Bravi, bravi! Bravi partigiani! È ora che la finiamo!’. Perché i tedeschi e i fascisti requisivano le biciclette allora vedere qualcuno che contrastava questa requisizione ‘Bravi, bravi!’. Io mi volto, sento sto stridio, penso che fosse quello che prima aveva fatto l’applauso e invece no, era un bel ragazzo, magnifico, giovane, tre o quattro anni più vecchio di me che per mia fortuna aveva, altro che io avevo un pistolino, pochi colpi, una beretta piccolina piccolina, appena appena sufficiente per fare qualcosa. Lui aveva la famosa Hi-power che è la pistola che ha in dotazione adesso la Polizia di Stato, che porta 15 colpi da mitra con un caricatore bifilare e per mia fortuna la sua Hi-power, la sua pistola, perché lui aveva, era vestito in borghese, aveva sopra un bel cappello nero e aveva un trench che allora usavano quei trench chiari. La pistola, per mia fortuna il mirino si era inceppato, attaccato alla tasca, non veniva fuori dalla tasca, è stata la mia salvezza perché lui era addestrato perché come ha sparato si vede che è addestrato, ma il gappista oltre che avere il coraggio aveva anche il sangue freddo perché chi ti porta fuori in queste cose è il sangue freddo più che il coraggio. Eh io allora mi volto, il fatto di vedere la scena come ho detto che anche noi eravamo addestrati, fu tutt’uno con l’istinto di voltarmi e di sparargli. Io mi volto quando vedo la scena, sono anche io in bicicletta, anche lui è in bicicletta, lui aveva, in bicicletta come me, lontano cinque metri, quattro, mi ha strinato sulla schiena, mia ha strinato la tuta tanto a dire che era vicino, eh mi volto, però prima, mi volto per sparargli, prima che sparassi io ha sparato lui, e nel momento in cui io mi volto per sparargli faccio questo, in bicicletta faccio questo movimento, inarco la schiena per potergli sparare, lui, è partito il primo colpo, in mezzo alla schiena. Se non mi fossi girato il colpo usciva qui. Girandomi il proiettile è entrato sulla scapola sinistra, è passato sopra la scapola e, avendo la schiena inarcata, è passato sopra la spina dorsale senza toccarla è tornato dentro sulla scapola destra, ha fatto quattro buchi è uscito dall’altra parte. Qui ho quattro buchi nella schiena. Poi naturalmente quando si prende un colpo d’arma da fuoco non è tanto, si si sente un gran calore un gran bruciore ma non è che, però è l’impatto che ti butta per terra è il colpo, io stramazzo lì, sull’asfalto sulla via Emilia lì a Villa Masone. Lui che era molto addestrato, senza scendere dalla bicicletta, anche lui in bicicletta, dà un secondo colpo a Jack e butta giù anche Jack, di colpo. Erano erano quegli ufficiali fascisti che i tedeschi avevano addestrato in Germania per farli venire in Italia a fare la lotta antipartigiana, quindi erano addestratissimi. Naturalmente, siccome quando sparava con la mano destra, sulla mano sinistra aveva la valigetta, anche la sua bicicletta ha perso l’equilibrio ed è caduto anche lui, è caduto a gambe aperte è caduto, quando è caduto ha aperto le gambe, ha mollato la bicicletta e si è fermato lì vicino a me. Io apro gli occhi e vedo sto pistolone vicino, era, purtroppo la guerra è fatta così, per essere sicuri che sia morto si da il colpo di grazia. E allora lui era lì sopra di me, col pistolone che mi sta per dare il colpo di grazia, in quel momento io apro gli occhi, ecco perché vi dico che anche noi eravamo addestrati, ero sdraiato sull’asfalto in mezzo a un lago di sangue, il mio sangue con quello di Jack aveva inondato la via Emilia li prima di Masone, quando vedo la scena senza muovermi, avevo il mio piccolo pistolino apro il fuoco, stavolta ho sparato prima io, gli ho messo sei o sette colpi addosso, tutti qua, all’addome. Lui non si aspettava questa reazione, tant’è che ho visto che ha fatto così e poi si è tirato indietro e mentre si tirava indietro ha continuato a spararmi che ero per terra, un altro colpo è uscito qui è entrato che dalla coscia sinistra è uscito dalla schiena perché erano, sono armi micidiali come potenza. Pensate che entrare qui e uscire dietro la schiena, salt la coccia la pistola. Naturalmente quando vede che lui, vede che io rispondo fin che avevo dei colpi va verso il mio compagno e l’ha massacrato. Se lo vedete adesso Otello Montanari, l’onorevole Montanari lo vedete che, adesso sta molto male, in questi giorni lo abbiamo visto durante questa manifestazioni è venuto, sta molto male perché le ferite col tempo eh lui è stato molto ferito. Lui però quando ha preso il colpo che è caduto sull’asfalto la, la cinghia del suo mitra, del suo sten, è andata sotto il manubrio e tra a bicicletta, il manubrio, la cinghia e il mitra io ho visto che in mezzo alla via Emilia c’era un fagotto che si, si arrotolava e gridava. Ecco in quel momento, quando si perde tanto sangue signorine belle, si perde tanto sangue hai il cervello che non è più il tuo cervello, vedi tutte delle cose, le vedi [pause], evanescenti, perché sembra un sogno, perché tu hai perso tutto quel sangue lì. In quel momento, io a me sembra di vedere che arrivano le famose camionette fasciste tedesche per catturarmi e per torturarmi, i nostri morti sono più morti da, per la tortura e in seguito alla tortura che al combattimento. Perché con la tortura ti facevano parlare, perché pensate che alle ragazze strappavano i capezzoli con le pinze, agli uomini massacravano i testicoli con, quindi nessuno di noi voleva farsi catturare più. Quando a me sembrò di vedere arrivare le macchine conoscendo anche, pensate che un terzo dei gappisti si son suicidati, un terzo dei morti. Io avevo la pistola in mano ‘Eh no, non mi prendete’. C’era una specie non, di impegno non scritto ma a non farsi catturare. Tiro la pistola per mia fortuna non ho più neanche un colpo. Ragazzi quando non è ora di morire non si muore, tiro tiro la pistola, non c’è niente, poi torno a perdere per qualche istante la conoscenza. Quando riapro gli occhi non ci sono più le macchine, che poi non c’erano neanche prima e sento il mio amico Jack, che noi chiamavamo tabarone, perché aveva sempre la mantellina, tabaroun, che gridava ‘Alì, Alì, Alì!’. Allora ero già Alì allora ‘Alì, Alì, Alì corri corri!’ perché dopo che abbiamo accettato di entrare nei gappisti, il mio nome di battaglia che prima era Febo diventò Alì, era l’obbligo di cambiare il nome di battaglia ‘Alì, Alì, Alì corri a chiamar la zia!’ io non sapevo neanche che Jack avesse una zia, ma mentre lui mi diceva ‘Corri a chiamare la zia, corri a chiamare la zia’ mi segnava una casa colonica proprio di fronte, di fronte dove c’è stato il combattimento e però per andare lì dentro dovevo andare avanti 100 metri e poi tornare indietro. Mi sono alzato, sono subito caduto perché non stavo in piedi poi con tutte le forze che può avere un ragazzo, perché a quell’età lì eh la spinta c’è. Tento ancora di rialzarmi, mi prendo la gamba che ormai è rigida come un marmo e a salton saltoni vado dentro alla casa che aveva indicato Jack, grido ‘Correte, correte in strada! Perché c’è’ non ho potuto dire ‘Jack ferito’ ho detto ‘Che c’è Otello Ferito’ perché se dicevo Jack nessuno capiva chi era Jack perchè, i nomi di battaglia non li sapevano. Poi io sotto la famosa porta morta torno a cadere perdo ancora conoscenza per un attimo, quando riapro gli occhi la casa è vuota, silenziosa e il lo zio, non la zia di Jack, lo zio era già in strada con un carretto, l’aveva caricato e l’ha portato via. Io sono rimasto lì sotto alla porta morta e con mia sorpresa, piacevole sorpresa vedo che sullo stipite del portone c’è la mia bicicletta, quella bicicletta che era rimasta sulla via Emilia in mezzo al sangue, ma come mai è lì la mia bicicletta. Dopo l’ho saputo: mentre c’era stata la sparatoria una ragazza che era amica di mia sorella perché dove è avvenuto il combattimento, era lontano mezzo chilometro da dove ero sfollato. La ragazza mi ha [ri]conosciuto, era amica con mia sorella [coughas], è corsa ad avvisare mia sorella, mia sorella [coughs] mia sorella arriva proprio nel momento in cui io superata la ferrovia, superata la ferrovia, sto ancora cadendo sotto a un’altra porta morta di un altro contadino oltre la ferrovia lei arriva lì, vedo sta ragazza, mi ricordo che aveva un abito rosso che piangeva, poverina aveva un anno, io avevo 16 -17 anni e lei ne aveva, 16 e mezzo, e lei aveva 15 anni, lei è del ’28 io son del ’27. Grida, grida ‘Ti hanno eh Giglio! Giglio!’ e lei diceva ‘Ti hanno ammazzato!’ ‘No, parlo ancora, non m’hanno ancora ammazzato’ e mi voleva mettere le mani addosso per aiutarmi ‘Ma stai ferma’ che ero tutto pieno di sangue, di polvere ‘Se ti sporchi le mani dopo ti prendono anche te, capiscono’ e lei voleva aiutarmi a tutti i costi mentre lì che ‘Cosa faccio allora?’ ‘Prendi quel carretto lì (c’era un carretto da contadini come sempre, quelli che portavano il latte al casello) dai caricami, cerca, aiutami a salire sul carretto, portami via’. Mentre lei poverina cerca di aiutarmi arrivano due giovani in borghese che io non conoscevo, ma erano due giovani in borghese e uno dice ‘Oh ma se t’è succes? Cosa è successo? Chi è stato?’ ma io non volevo dire chi era stato perché ‘Chi sono quei due lì? Perché se gli dico chi è stato se son due fascisti mi ammazzano subito, se son due partigiani’. Io cincischiavo, dicevo ‘Mah, mi, moh’. Quello ha capito che io cincischiavo, uno dei due ha detto ‘Se sei un partigiano non aver paura perché anche noi siamo del movimento, del movimento’. Parola che diceva tutto e niente, il movimento. E io senza dire chi era stato, perché la domanda era quella, ho detto ‘Beh se siete del movimento aiutate mia, a mia sorella, prendete voi il carretto e portatemi dove vi dirò io’. Mia sorella andò via, gli avevo dato quelle armi che avevo io, gli avevo detto di nasconderle dentro alla siepe le armi, perché per noi le armi erano molto, quello che facevamo era per recuperare le armi e lei ‘Nascondile nella siepe, non tenerle addosso perché altrimenti’. Lei poverina, in preda a questa questa situazione ha tenuto le armi fino a casa, meno male, ha incontrato nessuno. Io vado alla ferrovia con con quei due giovani lì, mi ha detto ‘Vai’ gli ho insegnato, mi hanno portato in una casa di latitanza là in fondo San Maurizio, la zona che si chiama Grastella e mi portarono in Grastella. Lì prima staffetta, [coughs] avvisò il mio distaccamento che era fermo a Castellazzo e prima ancora che calasse la sera, perché subito, quando vennero queste cose ci fu subito il rastrellamento. Prima che cominciasse il rastrellamento il mio distaccamento era già arrivato lì con le armi nei sacchi, perché eravamo in pieno giorno ancora e poi naturalmente, appena calate le tenebre è arrivato il medico quello che curava, non era quello che curava i partigiani, era perché normalmente, noi avevamo, partigiani, un medico che ci curava ed era il dottor Bertacchi che abitava su nella zona di via, invece il dottor Bertacchi, che era quello che curava i partigiani non c’era e andarono a prendere il dottor Ovi, era il medico condotto della villa [caughs]. Mia sorella per farlo venire gli ha detto ‘Corra, corra’, perché ci conoscevamo, era il nostro medico condotto ‘Corra, corra corra che mio fratello’ ‘Ma cosa?’ ‘Ha fatto indigestione, ha fatto indigestione’ e allora lui è arrivato là con la scusa, quando mi ha visto ‘Ho capito che indigestione ha fatto’ però era un fascista il dottor Ovi e quando noi siamo rimasti sorpresi di vedere che il medico che mi doveva curare e aiutare a soccorrere era il dottor Ovi, notoriamente, non lui ma di ceppo fascista, era un Ovi di Baiso, a Baiso, anzi di Cassinaro che è proprio la frazione dei fascisti. Lui ha detto però ‘Io sono un medico, io non guardo se è un partigiano se è un fascista, io sono un medico e io vi curo’. Questo ci ha fatto molto piacere, e ha avuto i complimenti e dopo la liberazione siccome lui era un fascista, io sono andato alla commissione che c’era, di epurazione e, a sottoscrivere la dichiarazione che lui durante la lotta partigiana mi aveva curato e quindi se ha avuto anche un attestato di benemerenza per collaborazione con la resistenza, punto.
DG: [unclear].
GM: In coda a quello che ho detto, sì allora, quando ho prima parlato dell’azione di disarmo del presidio, del presidio di Villa Masone che è sulla via Emilia, durante il nostro attacco, era la ca’ del fascio che c’era dentro il presidio fascista, mentre c’era la sparatoria, nella bella conclusione arriva Pippo, Pippo che ormai era familiare, che era quel ricognitore inglese che passava basso sugli alberi e buttava la bomba quando vedeva la luce. Arriva Pippo, vede tutti sti traccianti, ste pallottole, butta la bomba, tutti allora, c’era fermata anche una colonna di automezzi tedeschi che andavano verso Modena, si erano fermati, alcuni si sono messi a sparare, nel bel mezzo della sparatoria nostra dei tedeschi Pippo butta la bomba e tutto finisce perché noi abbiamo detto, a questo punto proviamo a ritirarci, i fascisti dentro, dentro al presidio, anche loro ‘Fermi!’ però abbiamo raggiunto lo scopo della missione perché non solo il mattino dopo il presidio è andato via, ma anche perché questa nostra azione era una delle prime, e faceva molto proselitismo e promozione per la Resistenza, tant’è che il giorno il mattino dopo, gli abitanti lì di Villa Masone, dicendo delle cose che non erano vere, ma che faceva a noi comodo ‘Questi bei giovanottoni con le barbe’ non potevamo avere le barbe in pianura ‘Con questi barboni’ tutti ben messi, son arrivati qui. ‘Erano d’accordo con Pippo, peinsa te! Erano d’accordo con Pippo!’ [laughs]. E quando eran d’accordo, arriva Pippo, eran già d’accordo coi barboni, butta la bomba, e tutti! [background noise] Basta.
DG: Bene, parliamo quindi più in dettaglio del bombardamento degli alleati, qual è la cosa che pensa, cosa le viene in mente come prima cosa, quali sono i suoi sentimenti di oggi e quali erano allora, parliamo un po’ più.
GM: Beh le dirò, nella casa dove ero sfollato che era lontano a San Maurizio lì dove adesso la tangenziale, dove la tangenziale torna in via Emilia, quello è Campo Alto eravamo sfollati in Campo Alto lì e la sera del, la sera del 7 che c’era stato il bombardamento degli inglesi che avevano illuminato, si vedeva lì dove avevano sfollato a distanza di alcuni chilometri i bengala illuminavano a giorno, poi ci fu il bombardamento, che noi non avevamo mai visto una cosa del genere, prima di tutto queste luci, questi paracaduti che scendevano col bengala attaccato, una, una cosa non solo mai vista ma anche incredibile inconcepibile, poi c’è stato un bombardamento. Il mattino dopo, io facevo parte oltre che, prima eh di andare, che dopo siamo andati nell’ispettorato, prima facevo parte delle squadre UNPA (Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea). Il nostro compito era quello di girare, ci avevano dato un elmetto, chissà poi cosa serviva, un elmetto, un’accetta e una maschera anti gas. Giravamo per la città a dire quando vedevamo la luce ‘Smorsa! Spegni perché c’è Pippo, spegni la luce!’. Il nostro compito era quello di far spegnere le luci perché Pippo buttava la bomba. Allora quella sera lì c’è il bombardamento il 7 degli inglesi, il mattino dopo, io che facevo parte eccola la premessa, facevo parte dell’UNPA, mi metto la mia, la mia specie di divisa, a piedi, che sono tre chilometri o quattro, per andare in città, perché non c’eran mezzi gente! Si vedeva ancora la nube del bombardamento della notte sulla, era sulla città. Mentre questo vado in là whooo sento, perché si diceva anche allora che dopo un bombardamento degli inglesi arriva quello degli americani e di fatti, mentre sono di fronte alla portineria del San Lazzaro sento whoooo, le fortezze volanti, conoscevamo quel rombo lì purtroppo. Sento allora io a un certo punto, normalmente quando sentivamo questo rombo, gli apparecchi passavano, le fortezze volanti si vedevano che luccicavano là in alto, passavano sopra e andavano a bombardare i ponti sul Po, il ponte Lago Scuro, andavano a Ostiglia andavano verso il Po e ci passavano sopra. Quel mattino lì ho detto ‘È meglio che vada nel fosso, mi metto nel fosso per farli passare’ invece eravamo noi l’obiettivo quella mattina lì e han cominciato a bombardare dalla città, han cominciato le prime bombe a Pieve Modolena, che è dall’altra parte della città a ovest e l’ultima è arrivata proprio dove ero sfollato. Tutta questa striscia nord-est da ovest a est tutto hanno bombardato gli americani. Io ero nel fosso, sento che passa la prima ondata, la seconda, un terrore, un terrore, non avevo molto paura perché ero di quei ragazzi, io sono vissuto nei bassi fondi della città, io sono un ragazzo dei bassi fondi e non avevamo molta paura noi, eravamo purtroppo, per la miseria per la fame avevamo rotto a tutte a tutte le cose, non c’era eh. Aspettavo che passasse l’ultima, quando è passata l’ultima ho detto ‘Eh no, io con il mio elmetto non ci vado in città perché qui sta sta succedendo il finimondo’. Torno indietro torno là dallo sfollato. Il giorno dopo, la mattina dopo, dovevo, dovevo andare in città, si vedeva ancora là dove ero sfollato dalla città era già ed eran venuti sia il bombardamento della notte degli inglesi e quello di giorno degli americani. E io vado in città, quel mattino lì piano piano, senza fretta si sentiva odore di fumo, di carne bruciata si era tutti [background noise] i più brutti odori del possibile. E là da Campo Alto arrivo in città e vado lì dove abitavo io che ero sfollato ma io abitavo a San a porta San Pietro, io abitavo in via San Martino, proprio nei bassifondi abitavo, che allora c’era via Cavagni, c’era via Crevezzerie [?] erano i bassifondi della città. Io vado lì per vedere un po’ se le bombe sono arrivate lì, quando arrivo contro via Roggi, allora via Roggi è entrando da porta San Pietro imboccate viale Monte Grappa la prima a destra che torna in via Emilia è via Roggi e vedo lì, arrivo lì e vedo tutto un fumo, tutta la gente che guarda via Roggi era parzialmente sbarrata dalle macerie. Lì ci abitava un mio compagno di scuola, Alfio Proietti, che lo trovate negli elenchi delle vittime civili, c’è Alfio Proietti che era con me a scuola all’industriale, al professionale. E io vedevo tutta sta roba qui, tutta, la gente che non sapeva cosa fare, cosa fai? I più, gli unici che avevano una certa forza erano, era anche allora i vigili del fuoco però non potevano prendere dappertutto e via Roggi era lì con le macerie che arrivavano, c’era la casa di Proietti che era tutta, non c’era più, e si sentiva, e c’era, usciva dalle macerie questo odore, fumo e anche odore di carne bruciata, nauseante perché erano ancora sotto tutti i morti. Io, quando ho visto questa scena qui, nonostante il mio elmetto e la mia piccozza ah, anche perché l’UNPA, il comando UNPA era a porta San Pietro, era scomparso anche lui nel bombardamento. Io sono andato per trovare che c’era un capo squadra lì dell’UNPA, era a porta San Pietro, non c’era più nessuno. Allora io, adesso no, adesso torno indietro, tanto non posso fare niente, cosa puoi fare? E la gente che mi vedeva con sto elmetto che mi diceva ‘Aiutaci!’ ‘Cosa posso fare?’. Anche demoralizzato a vedere che sei impotente ad aiutare nessuno, e mi avvio sulla strada del ritorno, rimbocco la via Emilia li a San Pietro e mi metto andare verso verso la, San Maurizio. Arrivati contro allora c’era a sinistra, c’è una via che mi pare fosse via Paradisi, sì forse via Paradisi, che c’era una stradina che adesso non c’è più, la stradina che collegava la via Emilia con l’area nord di Reggio, e quella che passava di fianco all’aeroporto, che non c’è più, adesso c’è il ponte sopraelevato. Allora c’era una stradina che passava tra il cimitero di Ospizio e la monte, lo stabilimento Montecatini, faceva una curva là in fondo poi passato il passaggio a livello e passava all’aeroporto. E io quando arrivo alla via Emilia vedo tutta la stradina tutta, perché il muro il cimitero è arrivato sulla strada, il muro della Montecatini era sulla strada: la strada era interrotta. Però vedo che c’è, io dalla via Emila vedo che c’è della gente là che parla, questo qua è scritto qua, è scritto anche lì, anche su Ricerche Storiche c’è questo particolare. Eh vedo sta gente là sulle macerie che guarda dentro il cimitero e io, il mio elmetto là, non è che mi sentissi un’autorità però vado a vedere anche io, e vedo, monto su dei pezzi di muro che son sulla strada, guardo dal cimitero, il nostro cimitero perché me a sun de Ospezi [io sono del quartiere di Ospizio] il nostro cimitero di Ospizio, sono arrivate cinque bombe dentro il cimitero, tutti gli avelli, i sepolcreti, le tombe di famiglia, tutto per aria e su, e tutto con questi cinque crateri. In un cratere là in alto io, assieme agli altri vedo che c’è una cassa da morto ma non era una cassa da morto classica, era una cassa fatta con del legno compensato. Quindi da buongoverno buttata lì. Naturalmente da questa cassa, lo scoppio, l’urto aveva fatto saltare via la parte di dietro di questa, di questo compensato e si vedeva na testa, una testa, una testa bagnata che non si capiva se era bagnata d’acqua perché c’era, le bombe avevan, con la bomba trovi l’acqua, e non si capiva se era sangue. Però una cosa che ho notato io e lo dico anche che nessuno poteva notare perchè, solo uno che abitava a Ospizio poteva fare questa considerazione perché era, era il mio cimitero quello lì: ‘Ma come? Quello lì che vedevo io per la testa, ma quello son pochi giorni che l’hanno, l’hanno sepolto, è ancora intatto! Ma come mai che questo cimitero, me son dl’Ospesi, come mai questo cimitero che è chiuso da due anni, o da un anno o da, era già chiuso per affrancamento, era in via di affrancamento perché lo stavano chiudendo, non seppellivano più nessuno lì dentro già da un anno, come mai? Quello lì era appena supplì col lè? Eh però lungi da noi il pensiero che fossero quei fratelli Cervi, nessuno pensava che quella testa fosse uno dei Cervi. Però, io, questo particolare solo un abitante di Ospizio lo poteva rilevare perché gli altri, un cimitero normale ecco, io ho detto ‘Mo guarda, li lò l’ha apeina suplì’ [ma guarda lui l’hanno appena seppellito]. Di fatti, dopo la Liberazione, va bene, veniamo a imparare che la, l’incursione che, non si sa bene, forse è stata quella della notte, non si sa bene se la bomba era quella della notte o quella del giorno, hanno buttato per aria oltre a tutte quelle che dicevamo prima anche le bombe, anche le casse dei sette, una cassa dei sette fratelli Cervi, che era poi, io pensavo fosse, quando si è saputo tanti mesi dopo, si pensava fosse Aldo, che era un po’ il capo, Aldo il capo della, dei fratelli Cervi, quello che dirigeva. Eh invece dopo abbiamo saputo che non era Aldo, era, adesso ve lo dico. Allora eh quando il comando fascista ha saputo quello che è successo abbiamo, dopo tanti anni abbiamo trovato il verbale della polizia mortuaria che ordina, cioè il comando fascista ordina alla polizia mortuaria di riesumare tutte le sette casse, le otto casse perché c’era sette fratelli Cervi più Quarto Camurri, è Gelindo la testa che vedevo, non era Aldo ehm, vedo e di riesumarli e rieumarli [riesumarli] là vicino alla chiesa che era un pezzo che non era arrivate le bombe. Tant’è che le casse dei fratelli Cervi sono state tirate fuori dove, nel posto primitivo e poi son state portate in un posto non colpito dalle bombe e erano risepolti là. Tutto questo si è saputo solo dopo la Liberazione, [unclear] non si sapeva niente. Ecco in quella circostanza, nel mio libro la biografia dico, sembra quasi, sembra quasi che la sia intervenuta la nemesi, la famosa nemesi storica che libera col bombardamento della notte libera il padre perchè durante la notte vien giù il muro di cinta del carcere, scappa il papà Cervi che torna a casa senza sapere che i figli erano stati ammazzati. Allora arriva a casa a Gattatico, non sa niente. Nemesi allora [unclear], ne la famosa nemesi, perché poi non ci crede nessuno. Mentre la il bombardamento notturno libera il papà quello diurno tira fuori alla luce del sole i sette figli dicendo ‘Non devono stare sotto, devono stare sopra alla luce del sole’. Questo è stato, e una cosa dopo Liberazione si è saputo un po’ tutto, perché subito si pensava, non si riusciva a capire chi era. Dopo la polizia, ma 10 o 20 anni dopo, la Polizia di Stato [background noise] con i mezzi di indagine che hanno adesso, osservando le stempiature di quella testa che vedevo io là su e c’è anche la foto su, su Ricerche Storiche c’è la foto, han detto non era Aldo, era Gelindo perché la stempiatura con i mezzi che ha adesso la polizia scientifica son riuscite a determinare che non era Aldo come come la fantasia popolare pensava, era il capo dei fratelli Cervi, era la testa di Gelindo, Cervi. Poi questo qui, finisco un po’ la storia dei due bombardamenti grossi. V’ho detto prima che successivamente noi eravamo stati incorporati nell’ispettorato provinciale del lavoro con le centurie, durante la mia permanenza nel nell’ispettorato ci furono due gravi spezzonamenti a Reggio Emilia, uno il 30 di aprile che io ero ancora all’ispettorato, e l’altro è stato il 14 di maggio successivo, che non ero, le centurie si erano già sbandate il 14 maggio, il 30 aprile. [Pause] Quindi con lo spezzonamento del 30 aprile io ero ancora all’ispettorato e la mia centuria fu proprio inviata con un camion, un camion militare a raccogliere i morti dello spezzonamento in via Terrachini, quella che adesso è via Terrachini che è la strada che va dalla piscina e va fino alla casa bianca là in fondo al Quinzio. Ecco allora la stradina era piccolina, stretta ed era fiancheggiata da una parte e dall’altra da due filari delle grandi querce della val Padana. Noi eravamo tradizionali per quelle querce lì. In mezzo a questi filari, specialmente dalla parte sud, c’erano siccome la gente, quando ci sono stati i due bombardamenti precedenti, avevano capito che quando c’è un bombardamento di scappare fuori dalle case per non essere travolto dalle macerie, pensando che quel giorno lì fossero le bombe tutti scapparono in mezzo ai prati, in fondo i fossi ma gli spezzoni, è lì che fecero il massacro. Noi trovavamo dei gruppi di persone abbracciate trafitte. Lo spezzone sapete come è fatto? È una spirale, è una spirale d’acciaio già tutta segnata in modo che quando, la spirale d’acciaio compressa, e dentro c’è c’è la polvere esplosiva, questa spirale, quando scoppia che c’è il detonatore, la spirale è già stata segnata, la spirale son tutti quadratini d’acciaio tagliente, quando scoppia, lo spezzone nel raggio di 50 – 60 metri non si salva neanche le piante perché lo, queste schegge taglienti tagliano anche gli alberi. Quindi noi glieli abbiamo trovati abbracciati, sepolti, trafitti, proprio per tentare di salvarsi, si abbracciavano, e li abbiamo caricati sui carri dell’ispettorato e li abbiamo portati a quelli di via Terrachini, li abbiam portati.
Unknown speaker: Ciao Gigilo.
GM: Ciao.
DG: No, no, prego prego prego.
GM: Li abbiam portati al cimitero. Allora non c’era il cimitero di Coviolo, li abbiam portati al cimitero lì, questo qua che è stato il primo spezzonamento, dolorosissimo, un sacco di morti perché la gente convinto che fossero bombe scappava in mezzo ai campi apposta per salvarsi e invece era proprio il contrario che dovevano fare perché con lo spezzonamento dovevano stare in casa. Nel secondo spezzonamento, quello del 14 maggio, io noi avevamo già disertato le centurie era già venuta la camionetta a casa mia per portarmi sulla linea Gotica come ho detto prima e io e il mio amico [pause] e io e il mio amico, quello anche lui era un centurione come me, che non volevamo farci prendere eravamo sempre allerta per vedere se arrivava la camionetta. Quel giorno lì che c’era lo spezzonamento passa sopra gli apparecchi, sentiamo fissssh, un sibilo, fiiiiiiu ‘Oh! Mo l’è caschè poc luntan’ è caduto poco distante. Non capivamo cosa fosse, andiamo a vedere, un’altra testa, testa brusa come la mia, sei incosciente a 16 anni ‘Sì sì andiamo a vedere, andiamo a vedere’. Andiamo allora in mezzo al frumento, vediamo qualcosa che luccica. Era un telaio porta spezzoni con uno spezzone ancora attaccato che è arrivato giù, siccome è arrivato pari, non è scoppiato. Noi due ‘Guarda, guarda cosa c’è’ prendi uno spezzone, prendi uno spezzone ‘Ma dove lo portiamo? Al purtom a cà’ lo portiamo a casa. Come arriviamo al cortile dove eravamo sfollati ‘Ma voi siete proprio pazzi! Portate via!’ e noi con il nostro spezzone, perché sono 15 chili ‘Sai dove lo portiamo?’ il mio amico Gino Capelli ‘Lo portiamo alla casa del fascio, dove sono i militi’ ‘Oh sì sì’. Allora scalzi, pantaloncini corti, arriviamo dentro la casa del fascio, davanti alla casa del fascio che era a San Maurizio a destra dove adesso c’è, cosa c’è, contro la ferrovia c’era la casa del fascio. E davanti ci sono due fascisti col berrettino nero, a g’ho det ‘Oh dove la mettiamo sta bomba?’ ‘Oh!’ quello lì di sentinella, corri dentro, corri dentro c’era il corpo di guardia ‘Veh va fuori’ ‘Voi siete due terroristi!’ ‘Noi terroristi?’ ‘Allora se non andate via subito vi passiamo per le armi!’ è scappato via, aveva quelle biciclette lì per salire di quelle snodabili, salta sulle biciclette, son scappati verso Reggio, e nueter a’som mes a reder [e noialtri ci siam messi a ridere] col nostro spezzone abbiamo girato gliel’abbiam messa dietro la loro casa, non abbiamo mai saputo chi l’ha rimossa. L’abbiamo messa giù proprio contro, di dietro da parte della ferrovia, contro la casa del fascio. Quello è stata una delle nostre prime avventure d’incontro con, coi fascisti. Proprio direi, il ratto della mitragliatrice in mezzo all’aeroporto e questo spezzone che abbiam portato a casa del fascio, eh non eravamo ancora partigiani però son state le due le due prime azioni che ci han messo in contatto. Quindi due bombardamenti, a parte quelli del luglio ’43, che sono avvenuti bombardamenti lì a San Polo d’Enza, alla cabina [centrale elettrica] di San Polo, anche qui in via Gorizia, più i due della città grossi e i due spezzonamenti, quella è quello che c’è un po’ condensato in quella memoria.
DG: Benissimo giriamo un po’ la pagina e adesso le chiedo se ci può così brevemente raccontare cosa ha fatto dopo la guerra.
GM: Sì benissimo anzi io sono orgoglioso di raccontarlo. Allora, [pause] quando noi adesso certe illusioni sono cadute ma allora quando eravamo arruolati nelle formazioni partigiane si diceva che noi combattevamo per il popolo, siete i soldati del popolo che vogliono conquistare la libertà. Noi eravamo anche disposti non solo a combattere ma anche a morire perché volevamo raggiungere la libertà che in quel momento non c’era lavoro, c’era solo fame, mo una fame, altroché! Atavica trascurata, non si mangiava mai, e quando siamo entrati nelle formazioni partigiane noi abbiamo ritenuto di fare questa nostra, [pause] di fare questa nostra azione di arruolamento in favore non solo del popolo ma anche dello Stato italiano, anche della nostra patria. Finita la guerra, con la Liberazione, il giorno della Liberazione c’era una delinquenza evidentemente con tutte le armi che c’erano per strada, era eh il giorno della, signorine voi che non c’eravate il giorno della Liberazione non c’era più nessun corpo di polizia, eran spariti la polizia, i carabinieri, questura, perfino i vigili urbani erano dimezzati perché tutti quelli che erano compromessi col fascismo erano scappati via. Quindi i giorni della Liberazioni non c’era più nessun corpo di polizia efficiente. In ogni città il CLN (Comitato Liberazione Nazionale) aveva nominato i prefetti della Liberazione, a Reggio il prefetto era l’avvocato Vittorio Pelizzi, il prefetto, il prefetto nostro della Liberazione. La prima cosa che ha fatto il prefetto Pelizzi è stato quello di creare una forza di polizia per cercare di far, far fronte a questa delinquenza che c’era, oltre che delinquenza politica c’era anche delinquenza comune, in abbondanza. Allora con chi si può fare un corpo di polizia ausiliaria? Se non altro per prendere i giovani che son disponibili in quel momento, e c’erano disponibili i partigiani, c’era anche qualcuno che invece non era partigiano perchè si era imboscato nel fienile era saltato fuori il giorno della Liberazione e c’era anche qualche, anche i primi reduci dalla Germania che erano tutti malmessi, tutti rovinati. La prima questura di cui io ho fatto parte è stata la prima questura post- Liberazione che io ho tutte le fotografie ancora e i nomi di quei colleghi là che li ho scritti, li ho mandati anche al questore adesso, si vede che per adesso non gli fa molto comodo parlarne perché io sono molto duro con la questura di quel momento lì, specialmente la seconda parte, quando subentra il ministro Selva che ci caccia tutti dalla polizia, perché il ministro Selva democristiano di di lunga e grossa diciamo conoscenza, preferiva, non voleva che ci fossero dei partigiani emiliano-romagnoli che erano tacciati di essere solo comunisti un po’ era anche vero ma non era vero del tutto. E lui nella sua azione di Selva per cacciarci addirittura cacciava i partigiani, ecco perché la mia amarezza finale che poi si sfoga anche nel mio libro, quando vediamo che un commissario aggiunto come noi arriva da Roma e viene con noi finge di essere un [uclear] socialista, dice mi hanno, era vero, gli avevan bombardato la famiglia là su a Cassino e finge di essere un quasi un partigiano poi scopriamo che fa il doppio gioco noi lo aiutiamo per diventare commissionario effettivo e là c’è il nome e cognome di questo, di questo triste figuro, e l’ho scritto perché chiaramente, ecco perché dico che adesso il questore va piano a pubblicare le mie memorie perché salta fuori che [coughs] questa figura, appena arriva dal ministero la nomina a commissario effettivo vien dentro al bar Agenti dove noi, quel bar l’avevamo costruito noi, vien dentro con in mano aveva il foglio che era appena arrivato dal ministero, il fonogramma del ministero che dice ‘Sono diventato commissario effettivo’ noi l’avevamo aiutato in tutti i modi perché lui dicendo che era un disgraziato come noi, noi lo aiutavamo a diventare commissario effettivo. Quando arriva dentro al bar col fonogramma in mano e dice ‘E adesso che sono commissario’ scritto, testuale ‘E adesso che sono commissario effettivo voialtri partigiani comunisti vi farò crepare tutti’. Noi più che altro siamo rimasti ‘Ma come? Ti abbiamo aiutato in tutti i modi per diventare commissario effettivo e tu vieni qui’. Come ha detto questa frase eravamo nel bar chi beveva una gazzosa, ah gli abbiam buttato dietro le bottiglie, i bicchieri ‘Brutto schifoso!’ [coughs] è scritto questo qua eh. Ecco perché il questore va piano a pubblicare le mie memorie [coughs] ‘Brutto fascista schifoso rospo!’ eccetera eccetera chi più ne ha più ne metta e lui è scappato via. Quando è scappato fuori dalla porta di dietro ha tirato fuori la pistola ma non per spararci, per farsi coraggio perché ha capito [coughs] che tutto il bar gli era contro. E noi abbiam continuato a dirgli ‘Quella pistola dovevi usarla quando era il momento non con i tuoi compagni che t’hanno aiutato per diventare quello che sei, brutto schifoso rospo’, e poi è scappato via [coughs]. Non ne abbiamo più sentito parlare se non dieci anni dopo quando il commissario Renato Cafari, comandò, comandava il servizio di ordine pubblico, il 7 luglio del ’60 quando ammazzarono i cinque in piazza della Vittoria, era lui. Qualcuno dice che ha dato l’ordine lui, qualcuno dice che non ha dato l’ordine, resta il fatto che lì nella sparatoria in piazza della Vittoria morirono cinque giovani, cinque giovani che erano lì a manifestare perché era appena stato insediato il governo para-fascista di Tambroni, che Tambroni era un democristiano però aveva accettato il l’appoggio, per fare il governo ha accettato l’appoggio dell’MSI (Movimento Sociale Italiano). Quindi in quella parte lì io mi sfogo, durante il regime Selva, Selva mandò via i partigiani li cacciò! Se sapeste come cosa han detto a me quando mi hanno messo fuori [coughs] li cacciarono tutti, quelli quelli che erano meno tacciati venivano mandati in Sardegna, l’ultimo buco del mondo, quelli un po’ come me [coughs].
DG: Due frasi ci dice cosa, di nuovo cosa, abbiamo sentito che è molto attivo tutt’ora se ci racconta un po’ così registriamo cosa fa oggi. Questo libro che ha fatto, un po’ political.
GM: Partiamo dalla Liberazione.
DG: Sì l’ho fatto partire.
GM: Partiamo dalla Liberazione. Io ho accettato l’arruolamento nella polizia di stato perché ho pensato di continuare il mio servizio a favore del popolo italiano e dello Stato italiano, quindi mi sono arruolato. Successivamente perché il primo ministro degli interni era l’onorevole Romita, socialista, ci voleva bene e ci aiutava, il secondo ministro, quando De Gasperi andò quando De Gasperi andò in America purtroppo a prendere degli ordini perché allora chi comandava erano gli americani, eh ha messo, è tornato in Italia ed ha chiuso, quello che era stato per due o tre anni il famoso governo dell’arco costituzionale, il governo dell’arco costituzionale che comprendeva tutti i partiti, tutti: Partito Socialista, Comunista, Partito d’Azione, quello di Parri e successivamente quando De Gasperi tornò dall’America chiuse il governo di coalizione e cominciò con un governo monocolore che dopo si allargò, al ministro degli esteri venne venne insediato il ministro Selva, Selva che da tutti noi poliziotti era proprio considerato come un [uclear]. Oh lui era un fido, è un siciliano fido cattolico evidentemente, non so se era anche credente, ma comunque militare, era un democristiano e per tale l’hanno messo ministro degli esteri. Quando il ministro Selva è subentrato all’onorevole Romita cominciò la cacciata dei partigiani dalla polizia e, triste a dirsi e a constatarsi, in questi, venivano cacciati i partigiani dalla polizia e venivano assunti in silenzio, non era un fatto generalizzato, ma molti che erano ex militanti della milizia fascista, era importante che non fossero partigiani, questa è stata l’opera del ministro Selva. Successivamente io ho espresso le mie amarezze un po’ dappertutto, poi ero talmente, ero studente, ho continuato, dopo il mio servizio di polizia mi sono laureato, ho finito gli studi, mi sono laureato, ho prestato servizio in due, sempre con, essendo io economia e commercio la mia carriera era o fare la libera professione o dirigente d’azienda queste le due cariche che poi più che altro ho fatto per sia l’una che l’altra cosa. Sono stato dirigente a Reggio della grossa purtroppo adesso è fallita ma allora si chiamava Cooperativa Muratori Reggio, che era una potenza in Emilia Romagna la Cooperativa Muratori, io ne sono stato il direttore, dopo altri, che allora a dirigere le aziende mettevano se era possibile, se li avevamo, dei dirigenti di azienda che avevano fatto dei corsi per essere tali, non dei chiacchieroni che venivano dalle varie federazioni. Noi quel pochino che abbiamo fatto l’abbiamo fatto gratis per amore dei nella Resistenza. Lì fintanto che dopo la liberazione c’erano nel movimento cooperativo c’eran tre dirigenti veri che avevano studiato a Bologna per fare i dirigenti, uno era Lidio Fornaciari, l’altro era Pino Ferrari di Cavriago e il terzo immodestamente ero io che ero il più giovane dei tre. Noi cercavamo di fare veramente i dirigenti d’azienda a prescindere da quello che erano le direttive delle varie federazioni, perché non c’era solo la federazione comunista, che mandava i suoi, quando ero direttore delle Farmacie Comunali Riunite io, c’erano tutti i partiti rappresentati, c’erano due due commissari che erano del partito comunista, due del partito democristiano allora c’era tutto l’arco costituzionale dentro ancora adesso se guardate negli enti locali sono rappresentati tutti i partiti, cercano per lo meno. Quando ho visto i giorni scorsi la triste fine che ha fatto l’UNIECO, pensando che cos’era allora quando a dirigere si cercava, non è detto che sempre si riuscisse ma si cercava di mettere gente che per fare quel lavoro aveva fatto dei lunghi studi universitari, per cercare di fare alla bene e meglio e poi dopo subentrano, non vi sto a dire, certe frasi e certe sensazioni che io ho provato durante la mia carriera, perché a un certo punto ho abbandonato la carriera, la parte del, dirigenziale della mia carriera mi son messo in libera professione quello che ho fatti fino a pochi, che sto facendo ancora adesso perché sto passando le consegne adesso io, a 90 anni io faccio ancora il consulente, avevo la fortuna che a Reggio ero molto conosciuto, avevo il più grosso, uno dei più grossi portafogli della provincia come consulente finanziario grazie alle mie conoscenze, grazie anche un po’ alla mia, spero, alla mia serietà, ma ero molto conosciuto nell’ambiente finanziario e tributario. Io ho questo grosso portafoglio e l’ho tenuto, poi tutte le volte che ancora adesso ho detto ‘Ragazzi, io non voglio morire in servizio a g’ho novant’an! A un certo punto’ e tutti quanti ‘Ma no proprio adesso che c’è la crisi!’ ma la crisi c’è sempre, le crisi ci sono ogni tre anni che se io devo aspettare che non c’è la crisi! E quindi adesso sto passando le consegne a un mio collega e gli ho detto ‘Rispetta i clienti, ricordati, non guardare al tuo interesse attuale, semina per il futuro, tratta bene i clienti’ io non ho mai perso un cliente, mai! [emphasis] Ma quelli miei colleghi più giovani, che pensano purtroppo perchè hanno famiglia, hanno moglie, hanno bisogno di guadagnare, subito, quelli delle volte non si comportano bene nel consigliare un prodotto anziché un altro. Allora io gli dico ‘Non pensare a quello che guadagni adesso, lo so che ne hai bisogno, ma semina per, tratta bene i clienti’. Se il cliente è ben trattato no lo perderai mai! Quello che è successo.
DG: Va bene noi la ringraziamo moltissimo, l’intervista è andata bene e adesso firmiamo, pensiamo all’accordo e le condizioni appunto per come verrà trattata l’intervista.
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Title
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Interview with Giglio Mazzi
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Giglio Mazzi (b. 1927) recalls his early life in Reggio Emilia, born in a family with strong anti-fascist sentiments. Describes his first job at the Reggiane works, then at the local labour inspectorate where he was attached to a debris clearance team. Speaks about removing corpses after two Reggio bombings and explains how he defected before being sent to dig trenches on the Gothic line. Describes his role within the Unione nazionale protezione antiaerea; provides an account of the January 1944 bombings and their widespread damage. Recollects how the explosions disinterred corpses buried in the local cemetery, among them one of the Cervi Brothers and of seven partisans killed in a reprisal action. Describes the effects of lack of anti-aircraft preparedness when many civilians were maimed by small bombs, how he stole one of the bombs and brought it to the local Fascist headquarters. Recollects how he became a partisan and describes the actions he took part in: capturing an aircraft machine gun and attacking a German stronghold, later joined in by "Pippo". Gives an account of the differences between Gruppi di Azione Patriottica (GAP) and Squadre di Azione Patriottica (SAP), two Italian resistance groups and mentions the assumed names under which he fought. Recollects how he narrowly escaped death in an exchange of fire with Italian SS and speaks with respect of a Fascist doctor who tended his wounds, regardless of side. Chronicles how he was enlisted into the Italian police force afterwards and how he was forced to leave following a change in the law and a political feud with a superintendent, he had previously helped.
Creator
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Gladun Dzvenyslava
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IBCC Digital Archive
Istituto per la storia della Resistenza e della società contemporanea (Reggio Emilia)
Date
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2017-04-20
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Francesca Campani
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01:16:30 audio recording
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ita
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AMazziG170420
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Reggio Emilia
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
bombing
civil defence
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea
Waffen-SS
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/114/1173/ADelfinoG171029.1.mp3
82938fcfa0094b054fdc2fa441873da9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Delfino, Giovanni
Giovanni Delfino
G Delfino
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects her wartime experiences in the Milan and Cremona areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-29
Identifier
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Delfino, G
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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ST: L’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre, l’intervistatrice è Sara Troglio, l’intervistato è Giovanni Delfino, e l’intervista ha luogo a casa dell’intervistato in [omitted] a Carate Brianza. Oggi è il 29 Ottobre 2017 e sono le ore 17. Volevo chiederti un po’ della tua vita prima della guerra, dove abitavate, appunto, ciò che ti ricordavi sul tuo quartiere.
GD: Allora, come ha già detto l’intervistatrice, sono Giovanni Delfino, classe 1933, ai tempi del racconto avevo undici anni, undici, dodici anni, perché parliamo del ’44-’45. Precedentemente all’avvenimento devo dire che la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era situato in Via Petitti al numero 11, che era una via adiacente alla Via Traiano che confinava con gli stabilimenti Alfa Romeo del Portello, i primi stabilimenti che erano stati fatti a Milano. Fino a quel momento, io la guerra l’avevo diciamo così sentita un po’ da lontano perché i miei genitori avevano provveduto a farmi sfollare nella zona di Cremona da nostri parenti dimodoché io ad un certo momento quando c’era un incursione aerea su Milano li sentivo solamente per sentito dire, oppure quando succedevano di notte da questa distanza che erano circa 60 chilometri, io vedevo i bagliori delle parti delle case incendiate eccetera perché essendo campagna tutta piatta si riusciva a vedere i bagliori da Milano. Caso vuole che ormai considerando che la guerra stava finendo, i miei genitori decisero di ritornare a casa e qui successe il fattaccio, successe il fattaccio perché dunque la mia abitazione, il mio caseggiato era adiacente ad un convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù, circondato da altissimi muraglioni alti, alti, alti, e intorno c’eran tutte, vuoi l’Alfa Romeo, e vuoi piccole aziende e altra campagna cioè prati, più che altro coltivazioni di ortaggi, eccetera eccetera. Dico questo perché una particolarità, tutte le siepi che circondavano queste ortaglie erano diciamo, luogo, diciamo, di ritrovo degli operai di queste ditte, piccole ditte che, finito l’orario di mensa, si mettevano per quei pochi minuti che rimanevano ancora a giocare a carte o a dama all’ombra di queste siepi. Il giorno che sto per raccontare era un giorno, non mi ricordo bene se luglio o agosto, era sul mezzogiorno. Gli operai erano tutti sotto queste siepi a giocare, eccetera eccetera. Io ero appena tornato da, dalla spesa, dall’aver fatto la spesa con mia mamma, che si trovava sull’androne del caseggiato insieme ad altre persone perché sotto c’era un bar, e insieme a un ufficiale dell’aereonautica militare italiana. Io ero lì che guardavo, curiosavo e la, come fanno tutti i bambini, questi operai che giocavano a carte, a dama, eccetera eccetera. A un certo momento, suona il piccolo allarme. Il piccolo allarme, allora c’era il piccolo allarme e il grande allarme. Il piccolo allarme veniva dato quando le squadriglie erano distanti abbastanza da Milano. In quel momento lì invece cosa successe? Successe che, con questo piccolo allarme, l’ufficiale che c’era insieme lì a mia mamma che stava chiacchierando, sentendo il rombo così degli aerei, guardò in alto e già a una certa distanza, essendo anche pratico, insomma, del mestiere [laughs], vide che c’era questa squadriglia altissima, altissima no, di Liberator, dice, famosi Liberator, e il caposquadriglia aveva fatto, aveva iniziato a fare una manovra, diciamo così, di circoscrizione della zona che, a detta dell’ufficiale dell’areonautica, era un segnale per, diciamo, l’inizio del bombardamento. Al che, l’ufficiale gridò subito: ‘Bombardano, bombardano!’, mia madre, immaginare lo spavento, io, come tutti i bambini che quando vengono richiamati dalle proprie madri, no, ci mettono una, due, tre volte prima di decidersi a rispondere, a obbedire, come sentii il grido di mia mamma, partii come un razzo e arrivai di volata, percorsi questi cinquanta, sessanta metri, quelli che potevano essere, arrivai sotto all’androne della casa. In quel momento arrivavano le prime bombe. Lo spostamento d’aria buttò mia madre, l’ufficiale ed io giù per la tromba delle scale, verso i rifugi, che normalmente una volta si chiamavano rifugi ma, insomma, erano quello che erano, erano le cantine, e fortunatamente in fondo alle scale c’era un mucchio di sabbia, che veniva messo per gli incendi, eventualmente spegnere gli incendi, e io ero davanti, dietro c’era mia mamma, l’ufficiale, e giù tutti a capo di collo e io mi infilai con la testa dentro nel mucchio della sabbia, mi ferii la testa, infatti sto facendo vedere ancora la cicatrice all’intervistatrice. E finisce così, frastuono, polvere, e devo dire che a distanza adesso di anni, ragionando adesso dai miei ottantaquattro anni, devo dire, sinceramente, che io non provai grande spavento perché probabilmente la situazione era stata così rapida, traumatica, improvvisa, imprevedibile, eccetera eccetera che non aveva lasciato il tempo di pensarci troppo, giusto? Alla fine, passa, passa il bombardamento, si esce. Spettacolo, allora sì, incominciamo ad avere una sensazione, così, non più di paura perché ormai non c’era più la paura ma di accoramento perché la strada era ormai tappezzata di macerie. Avanti di noi c’era una casa proprio che era sul limite della Alfa Romeo proprio, di quattro piani con, abitata da molti miei amici e ancora una casa di quelle vecchie, fatte di mattoni, non cemento armato, era letteralmente un cumulo di mattoni, un cumulo di macerie con sotto tutte le persone. [pause] Per fortuna la nostra casa, sì, aveva le persiane abbattute, finestre e i vetri rotti eccetera ma era ancora in piedi, non aveva subito danni, qualche scheggia eccetera perché? Faccio una piccola premessa doverosa. A quei tempi gli Alleati sapevano che, per esempio, l’Alfa Romeo aveva adottato per gli stabilimenti, per esempio di Pomigliano d’Arco a Napoli eccetera, il sistema di costruire i reparti sottoterra, per proteggerli dai bombardamenti. E allora loro, i bombardamenti, adottavano un sistema. Anziché usare bombe dirompenti, usavano bombe perforanti, le quali entravano sottoterra, e esplodevano, non alla quota diciamo zero, ma sottoterra. E così fecero anche per questo bombardamento, no. Questo per noi fu una salvezza perché, salvezza con una concomitanza anche di destino perché ad un certo momento, guardando poi la disposizione delle buche delle bombe di questo bombardamento a tappeto, vedemmo che quella bomba che in teoria, in pratica doveva arrivare su casa nostra, si era spostata di circa una cinquantina di metri, forse di più. Era andata a finire in una delle ortaglie. Andando a finire in una delle ortaglie, aveva perforato il terreno, aveva tirato su terra a non finire al punto che al terzo piano della nostra casa, sopra di noi abitava il padrone di casa, che aveva un terrazzo e con la terra che arrivò sul terrazzo riempì i vasi di fiori, non buttò via la terra, questo per dire. E questa è stata una fortuna, perché praticamente non c’è stato spostamento d’aria. Piccola premessa, piccola anzi parentesi, più che premessa, la vicinanza del convento delle suore di clausura di Maria Teresa del Bambin Gesù gridò, ci portò anche a dire, è stato anche un miracolo perché c’aveva protetto. Benissimo, prendiamo tutto per buono, l’importante che non ci era successo niente. Però, questo è un fatto che, mi dispiace quasi dirlo che, perché è un po’ macabro. Voi dovete pensare che le finestre della mia abitazione guardavano proprio su queste ortaglie, dove c’erano le siepi con quegli operai che stavano lavorando, che stavano giocando a carte eccetera eccetera. Non se ne salvò uno perché quella famosa bomba che è arrivata nell’ortaglia, sì, ha salvato la mia casa ma purtroppo non ha salvato gli operai. Bene, io non so per quanti mesi non mangiai più carne, ecco la storia macabra, perché dalle finestre di casa mia ogni tanto si vedeva il carro funebre del comune che andava a rovistare nell’ortaglia, non so cosa facessero però si vedeva che tiravano su delle cose, le mettevano dentro in sacchi di plastica e poi se ne andavano, basta, vi lascio pensare cosa potevano tirare su, senz’altro non carote e patate. E questo insomma è stato la mia esperienza bellica attribuita alle incursioni aeree. E voi dovete pensare, un particolare che può essere così anche di alleggerimento a questo racconto, in una, una dei crateri delle bombe che, essendo un bombardamento a tappeto, praticamente di bombe ne avevano sganciate un bel po’, era proprio vicino a casa nostra, no, e quando ci sono stati gli Alleati, da noi c’era un insediamento della Croce Rossa e allora c’erano degli italo-americani che si erano fatti amici dei miei genitori, venivano da noi a prendere il caffè, erano dei militari di Boston, mi ricordo ancora, no, bravissime, bravissime persone, no, e ovviamente io su suggerimento loro andavo in una delle buche di queste bombe, allora c’era qualche buca era adibita a raccolta di rifiuti diciamo umidi, e questa buca invece era adibita a rifiuti invece cartacei e lì c’era tutta la corrispondenza, le buste della corrispondenza che ricevevano i militari americani, e io, appassionato di filatelia, andavo a raccogliere dentro nella busta, [laughs] nella buca della bomba, andavo a raccogliere queste buste per togliere i francobolli che sono ancora qua nella mia collezione che quando li vedo mi viene un senso di, così di commozione perché a ottantaquattro anni ci si commuove anche per, guardando dei francobolli. Ecco questo per dirvi, questo bombardamento a tappeto cosa aveva prodotto, nel male 90% e nel bene 10% per i francobolli del Gianni Delfino, che sarei io.
SR: Prima mi parlavi di tuo papà e del suo lavoro in Alfa Romeo. Volevo chiederti.
GD: Sì, ecco sì, mio padre, noi abitavamo proprio vicini alla Alfa Romeo perché era abitudine, abitudine, si cercava chi lavorava in questi stabilimenti di metter su casa vicino per essere comodi, per non avere tanta strada da fare così. E mio padre aveva, ha lavorato la bellezza di quarantun’anni in Alfa Romeo, era un capolinea sulle dentatrici Gleason, di modo che io ho sempre mangiato pane e ingranaggi a casa mia, perché il suo da fare è raccontare, io ero figlio unico, era raccontare, a lui piaceva molto mettere al corrente, metterci al corrente di quello che succedeva sui posti di lavoro, sulle evoluzioni tecniche della costruzione degli ingranaggi eccetera eccetera, che, considerando che erano in Alfa Romeo, erano di altissima qualità perché sappiamo che l’Alfa Romeo allora insomma era una delle prime ditte italiane in fatto di costruzioni di automobili.
ST: E vi parlava anche della vita in fabbrica magari come succedevano, cosa succedeva durante i bombardamenti lì o episodi di resistenza?
GD: No, [unclear], se, ecco, quando avevano sentore di qualche allarme, sulla Via Renato Serra che era una via proprio che tagliava in due praticamente lo stabilimento dell’Alfa Romeo, avevano costruito degli enormi rifugi antiaerei di cemento armato, saran stati, avranno avuto minimo minimo un venti metri di diametro, dentro c’era tutta una, chiamiamo una scala a chiocciola, dove gli operai entravano, e poi man mano, tu, tu, tu, tuck, si sistemavano tutti seduti su questa scala a chiocciola eccetera; questi rifugi erano fatti anche con una punta conica, con una punta d’acciaio, proprio la cuspide in acciaio per fare in modo che se arrivasse, arrivava qualche bomba eccetera, era portata a scivolare via, insomma, non poteva dare l’impatto su questa. E questo è uno delle caratteristiche diciamo che mi ricordo. Poi, tu cosa, cosa mi chiedeva lei, scusi?
ST: Ti chiedevo se appunto lui magari parlava di, come reagivano gli operai durante i bombardamenti.
GD: Ah, niente, no, guardi, ormai c’era un’assuefazione tale che a un certo momento niente, non dico che quando c’era il bombardamento ‘oh che bellezza, così non lavoriamo!’, però insomma non è che si, oddio, gli operai la preoccupazione erano per i familiari a casa perché loro si sentivano superprotetti in questi bunker no, però purtroppo, come abbiamo visto, se ci fosse stato un operaio che aveva dei parenti nella casa di fianco alla mia, eh, vi lascio ben immaginare quale poteva essere stato il suo stato d’animo alla sera quando sarebbe uscito dal suo rifugio e fosse andato a casa sua ecco. Questo non, eh, niente.
ST: E i tuoi genitori parlavano della guerra o del regime, si scambiavano opinioni politiche quando erano in casa, anche davanti a te?
GD: Sì, sì, sì, sì, non è che si, cioè per quanto potessi capire io a dodici anni però a un certo momento qualcosa capivo anche perché posso dire perché tanto non è un segreto, mio padre non era di idee di regime. [background noise] Diciamo, sei possiamo dire all’opposto, abbiamo detto tutto. E a tal riguardo io potrei, mi piacerebbe raccontare un fatto molto, molto significativo, che elude da quello che è i bombardamenti, l’incursione aerea così, però è un fatto umano molto interessante. Il reparto di mio padre era decentrato a Usmate, un paese qui nella periferia di Milano. Mio padre così, forse, così, godeva di grande stima da ambo le parti, dalla direzione che senz’altro politicamente non la pensava come lui, dagli operai che politicamente qualcuno anche pensava come lui, e da, diciamo dei gruppi, diciamo partigiani, ecco, diciamo il termine giusto come deve essere, anche perché mio padre faceva parte della Brigata Garbialdi, parliamo chiaro, Garibaldi prima civile, non armata non, però questo cosa gli faceva fare? Voi pensate, quando era il giorno di paga, mio padre prendeva la bicicletta, mettevano le paghe in una borsa di cuoio normale che veniva messa a cavallo della canna della bicicletta, come si fa quando si mette dentro la merenda, oppure la colazione eccetera, e lui partiva lemme, lemme da Milano, prendeva la Gallaratese, trac andava verso Usmate eccetera eccetera a portare le paghe. Voi dovete pensare che, strada facendo, spesso e volentieri incontrava partigiani, che saltavano fuori un po’ da tutte le parti. Non l’hanno mai fermato una volta. Primo, perché sapevano chi era, poi perché, onestamente, erano partigiani onesti. Perché uso la parola onesti? Perché dobbiamo essere consapevoli che, a quei tempi, l’onestà non è che era una bandiera che tutti sventolavano; l’onestà era un piccolo vessillo privato che ognuno, alle volte cercava quasi di tenere di nascosto, per non farsi vedere troppo onesto. E allora probabilmente lui ha avuto la fortuna di incontrare sempre queste persone che, conoscendolo ed essendo onesti, non l’hanno mai fermato e non gli hanno mai portato via una lira. Lui arrivava sempre sul posto e portava le paghe agli operai di Usmate. Questo è un fatto molto molto importante e significativo perché purtroppo si sentono tanti racconti non belli di persone che approfittavano della loro idea politica e del loro grado, soprattutto idea politica, per fare anche nefandezze. A me piacerebbe, se è consentito, poi casomai sarà l’intervistatrice che taglierà, perché ad un certo momento io in questa intervista avevo fatto una riflessione, ero stato preparato dalla signorina Troglio, perché io, in mezzo a queste cose qui, così tragiche, volevo dire due cose significative, molto molto belle, che io devo cercare di non farmi prendere dalla commozione, intanto che le racconterò. Allora, noi avevamo undici dodici anni. Non è che si patisse la fame però ci si arrangiava come ragazzi a, insomma, a cercare dove, noi per esempio andavamo in queste ortaglie, che dicevo, a prendere, a rubare, a prendere le zucche, poi a fette le portavamo in questa casa di quattro piani, cumulo di macerie che vi ho descritto, c’era un fornaio e noi le portavamo quando il forno era spento però ancora caldo, portavamo le fette di zucca verso le tre, quattro del pomeriggio e poi le andavamo a prendere alle sette, alle otto, perché erano belle cotte e ce le mangiavamo. Ecco, questo per dire un particolare ma questo qui è un particolare ameno. Ma invece quello che ho detto che mi dà commozione ancora è questo. In Viale Certosa c’era tutto il filiare di platani. Ora, a un certo momento il comando tedesco aveva dato ordine di abbattere il platani, probabilmente non era, era per una questione di approvvigionamento di legna da ardere perché chiunque vi insegna che se c’è un filare di alberi e ci sono dei mezzi militari ci tengono a non abbatterli perché essendo nascosti dietro gli alberi gli aerei non li vedono. Perciò sarebbe stato assurdo un bel viale alberato, andare ad abbattere gli alberi quando, però abbiamo capito che era perché anche loro poveretti insoma c’avevano bisogno di legna da ardere. Bene. Particolare bellissimo, bellissimo, cioè noi arriviamo davanti a questo albero, noi siamo in due o tre amici che siamo lì a guardare abbattere l’albero con le borse della spesa in mano. C’è un tedesco con l’ascia che sta abbattendo l’albero. Ovviamente saltano via le schegge di legno, noi ragazzi raccogliavamo le schegge di legno per portarle a casa e accendere la stufa. Questo giovane tedesco, soldato tedesco, me lo ricordo ancora, faceva apposta a far fatica a fare le schegge più grosse per far in modo che noi, anziché le schegge piccole avessimo dei pezzi di legno più grossi da portar via, questa è una cosa che io, mentre la sto dicendo, mi sto commovendo, perché è una cosa che, niente, con questo io non sto difendendo il soldato tedesco tout court. No, per l’amor del cielo, eh, lungi da me, niente, sto riferendo un fatto mio personale che è molto, molto, molto importante. E il secondo fatto, e io ho già detto che nella mia famiglia, avete già capito le idee politiche quali potevano essere, però in quel momento, noi dobbiamo ricordare che negli anni ’40 eccetera, si era tutti infollarmati [sic], si era molto tutti, io ero un figlio della lupa, dico la verità, avevo la mia divisina anch’io, no, eccetera, e io mi ricorderò sempre un altro fatto importantissimo. Di fianco a noi, di fianco a questo convento delle suore c’era anche e c’è ancora un, diciamo, un ricovero eccetera, un’opera, dove erano ricoverati gli orfani, degli orfanelli, erano gli orfani di Padre Beccaro, esiste ancora eccetera. , Benissimo, a un certo momento c’era la scritta sopra, c’era scritto, ‘Opera derelitti di Padre Beccaro’. Derelitti è una parola italiana normale che vuol dire ‘abbandonati’, non è un’offesa, no? Bene. A un certo momento, arriva il Duce, arriva il Duce, tutto il rione in subbuglio, tutte, non tanto gli uomini perché erano al lavoro ma tutte le donne coi figli: ‘Arriva il Duce andiamo a vedere cosa farà questo Duce!’. Io me lo ricordo ancora adesso, come mi ricordo il tedesco là che faceva, io me lo ricordo ancora arrampicato su una scala, mia moglie, mia mamma eccetera, con le lacrime agli occhi insieme ad altri, io no perché io non capivo, perché io avrò avuto sei, sette anni, otto anni, quello che è, e avevano preparato, solo la parola, la parola ‘derelitti’ era stata tutta inbiancata. E lui, me lo ricordo, io chiudo gli occhi, me lo vedo ancora sulla scala, col pennello di vernice nera, che ha scritto ‘piccoli’, ‘Opera piccoli di Padre Beccaro’, ancora adesso se andate a vedere, c’è scritto ‘opera piccoli’ adesso fatta bene ovvio, aveva fatto togliere la parola ‘derelitti’ perché non voleva, ecco. Parliamo chiaro, è propaganda, cioè non sto dicendo che in quel momento lì il Duce si è svegliato una mattina e preso da un rimorso, ‘oh, io devo andare’, no, quello no, propaganda eccetera, però sono quelle cose che, cioè riflettendo adesso, dico ma, pensate un pochettino cosa può fare un regime per riuscire a imbonirsi eccetera, le persone. Oh, lì c’era una massa di donne che piangevano perché vedevano il Duce che stava scrivendo la parola ‘piccoli’ e infatti bisogna dire, è un fatto che non è riprovevole, anche encominabile perché insomma uno che tira via la parola ‘derelitti’ e ci mette ‘piccoli’, insomma tanto di cappello, giusto? Se l’avesse fatto un prete, sarebbe stata la stessa cosa. Ecco questo è il secondo fatto, diciamo così ameno, leggero che volevo mettere insieme al bombardamento.
ST: Ma, volevo chiederti, a scuola, com’era la vita a scuola durante la guerra, se avevano parlato di bombardamenti o vi parlavano della guerra in corso.
GD: No, dunque, allora devi pensare questo, io premesso, io un certo momento, nonostante le idee eccetera però si era presi dentro in un canale, io ero un figlio della lupa, avevo la mia bella divisina, ci tenevo a andare alla Scuola Pietro Micca di Via Gattamelata a fare le mie riunioni eccetera tutto così eccetera e non sono mai diventato Balilla perché siccome sono sfollato di modo ché non ho fatto in tempo. Io la terza, la quarta, la quinta l’ho fatta a Castelleone in quel di Cremona, perciò a un certo momento là per me la guerra non esisteva più, il fascio non esisteva più, cioè, ero ben lontano là, vivevo in mezzo ai campi contadini, per me insomma ormai, per me la vita era con le mucche, i tori, i cavalli eccetera eccetera, no, ecco. E perciò direi che mah, sì, io a un certo momento, più che la guerra in sé stesso, eccetera eccetera, ricordo due o tre fatti, proprio rapidissimi, così, per esempio, i fascisti scappano da Milano, c’erano i giovani della X Mas eccetera, eccetera, che mi ricordo che passavano da Viale Certosa, quel viale dove avevano abbattuto gli alberi e, io dico adesso alla mia età, con una paura addosso, perché chissà che paura avevano, erano, passavano coi camion, e sparavano sulle finestre perché non volevano che la gente si affacciasse a vedere che loro stavano scappando. Questo me lo ricordo perché casa mia, praticamente, Via Petitti è all’inizio era dopo c’era Viale Certosa perciò io da casa mia vedevo le case di Viale Certosa e quando sono passati sentendo il crepitio delle armi mi avevano detto ’Sì, sono i giovincelli del fascio che stanno sparando sulle finestre, perché probabilmente si vergognano per vedere che stavano scappando’. E invece l’altro fatto, l’altro fatto invece increscioso che mi ricordo, mi ricordo quello l’ho visto io,l’ho visto non visto fare ma visto dopo, quando hanno incominciato a fare le epurazioni che in Via Poliziano hanno preso la Ferida e Osvaldo Valenti, che erano i due attori, e a un certo momento li hanno fucilati lì sul marciapiede. Quella è stata una cosa che, ecco, io ricordo più, diciamo mi ha fatto più effetto il dopoguerra che la guerra, perché il dopoguerra per esempio c’era l’ingegner, faccio un nome, l’ingegner Gobbato. L’ingegnier Gobbato è un ingegnere dell’Alfa Romeo, bravissima persona, detto da mio padre, guardi, una cosa eccetera, ma era fascista, perché per forza, là tutti da un certo grado in sù, dai capi in sù dovevano essere per forza iscritti al fascio, perché altrimenti vivevano male, no? E a un certo momento si vede che qualcuno ce l’aveva su, dopo l’epurazione, a un certo momento l’hanno trovato in mezzo alla neve, fuori dell’Alfa Romeo, ammazzato eccetera, no? Ecco lì sono cose che si ricordano, si ricordano molto, molto, molto, molto, per far capire un pochetto cosa vuol dire cosa sono le, come si può dire, le vendette personali. E io posso dire che sotto di noi abitava un fascista. A un certo momento è stato preso e portato a San Vittore. Era una brava persona. Dopo un po’ di giorni è tornato a casa. Questo per dire che non era tanto perché uno avesse l’iscrizione al fascio o non al fascio, tutto dipendeva dall’indole della persona, una persona poteva essere malvagia o persona buona, e persona, e questo sono i vari ricordi. Oddio, questa è un’intervista che è partita con un tema ben preciso e cioè incursioni aeree eccetera eccetera, la RAF minga la RAF eccetera eccetera. Niente, potremmo farla un’altra, io ho aggiunto qualche particolare, potrei aggiungere altri particolari interessanti di vita bellica però su un altro tema, cioè il tema: vita bellica di un ragazzo eccetera eccetera. Si potrà fare un domani eccetera perché ci sono dei.
ST: Se vuoi anche ora.
GD: Degli altri, degli altri, ci sono degli altri avvenimenti importanti, per esempio, uno devo dirlo, devo dirlo perché.
ST: Racconta pure tutto quello che vuoi.
GD: E’ più forte di me. Allora, mio zio, anzi se la qui presente eccetera vuole anche con il telefonino filmare, riprendere un attimino quello che sto dicendo eccetera eccetera, mio zio era carrista sui carri armati M11 e diciamo zona di El Alamein, tanto per intenderci, carri armati M11 erano carri armati. L’M, avevano l’arma in torretta, poi furono trasformati in M13 con l’arma nello scafo, cioè praticamente fissa nello scafo, non nella torretta. Ovviamente con i carri armati inglesi bastava un colpo ben assestato che partiva via tutto, erano degli scatolini e io devo dire che mio zio era carrista, lui era capocarro a parte che a capocarro lì erano dentro in due o tre mi sembra, non è che come adesso sono dentro in cinque sei. E in una battaglia, mi ricorderò sempre, mi disse, stavano andando, a un certo momento colpiti da altri carri, a un certo momento un colpo tremendo, deve immaginare il frastuono tremendo eccetera eccetera tutto, a un certo momento, lui, il cannoniere era sopra di lui, lui era nello scafo, il cannoniere, e lui a un certo momento [screams] a cominciato a gridare, prende la gamba del cannoniere e gli dice, uè te, lo chiama per nome, cosa è successo, e gli è rimasto in mano la gamba. Praticamente il colpo aveva portato via la torretta, il cannoncino e mezzo cannoniere. Questo è stato il trauma di mio, al punto che mio zio è saltato fuori dal carro, si è spogliato, si è messo in mutande, si è messo con le mani alzate, e ha sperato che non ci fosse nessuno che lo colpisse. È stato fatto prigioniero. Ecco, questo non è per vigliaccheria, questo per dire come ci si trova. È stato fatto prigioniero, portato in Africa, bla, bla, bla, bla, tutto eccetera eccetera eccetera, rimpatriato, ehm, parte la nave, siluro, tutti mezzi morti, mio zio fortunamente aveva il mal di mare, era andato in coperta e si era addormentato su un rotolo di corde, giusto, e questo l’ha salvato perché è stato buttato a mare, è stato la bellezza di dodici ore a bagnomaria in acqua e poi è stato salvato dagli inglesi. Portato ancora in campo di concentramento, in Africa così, faceva il cuoco, stava benissimo, eccetera, eccetera. Precedentemente, voi dovete pensare che, per la sete, arrivavano a bere l’acqua dei radiatori del carro armato. Non gliene fregava niente se il carro armato poi si fermava, piuttosto che morire di sete bevevano l’acqua. E infatti mio zio poi dopo reduce a casa così, quando è deceduto, è deceduto anche perché aveva lo stomaco un po’. Ma il fatto invece bellissimo, bellissimo, uguale a uno di quelli che mi ricordo, è: io sono sfollato a Castelleone, ritorna mio zio reduce dalla prigionia, siamo in questo paese, la prima cosa che fece, mi ricordo guardi anche, me lo sento adesso, mi prende, mi porta fuori in campagna, c’era una roggia che si chiamava la Seriola, si chiama la Seriola, è un affluente del fiume Serio che incrocia sopra la Seriola, ci sono dei canali in cemento per portare l’acqua, eh cosa fanno, mica possono, allora facevano i canali, fanno i canali in cemento. E c’era uno di questi canali in cemento con dentro l’acqua corrente che se la Seriola era non so a diciotto gradi, lì l’acqua sarà stata a dodici gradi, forse a dieci. La soddisfazione di questa persona, reduce, arriva a casa, saluta i parenti, la prima cosa che fa, prende il Gianni, che ero io, andiamo in campagna, andiamo alla Seriola, ci spogliamo e in mutande dentro a bagnomaria nella corrente, a sentire quest’acqua fresca, fresca, freddissima, gelata. Io a un certo momento seguivo lo zio, e, cioè vabbè, non è che, mi piaceva, mi piaceva il fatto, non tanto perché io sentivo freddo ma io mi ricordo la soddisfazione di questo uomo a essere al suo paese, vivo, e immerso nell’acqua gelida, bella corrente, che avrà sognato non so per quanti anni, per quanti anni, per quanti anni. Bellissimo, bellissimo, sono dei fatti questi che sono, sono indimenticabili, indimenticabili, indimenticabili. E io torno a dire, la mia memoria ormai è quella che è: non mi ricordo quasi cosa ho mangiato a mezzogiorno, però questi fatti qui sono indelebili nella mia mente e mi fa tanto, tanto, tanto piacere perché io, come tutti i vecchi, chissà quante volte le ho già raccontate a Tizio, Caio, Sempronio, magari annoiandoli anche, mi fa piacere che questa volta così ho potuto lasciarli a una persona che magari ne può far tesoro, insieme ad altre testimonianze.
ST: Volevo farti un’ultimissima domanda.
GD: Sì. Dica.
ST: MI parlavi appunto dell’attivitò partigina di tuo papà. Lui in fabbrica era sabotatore quindi? Cosa?
GD: Sì, ah allora, [laughs], a un certo momento, dovete pensare anche questo: quando si parla di sabotaggio, sabotaggio non vuol dire mettere un ordigno esplosivo, far saltar per aria qualcosa eccetera. Sabotaggio c’è anche il sabotaggio intelligente. Il sabotaggio intelligente, che è molto pericoloso perché può essere frainteso come un finto sabotaggio. Cioè, lui essendo un capolinea perciò a un certo momento aveva anche una responsabilità verso gli operai, doveva stare attento anche che gli operai non facessero delle cavolate di loro iniziativa, però loro a un certo momento, se c’era, a un certo momento avevano capito che c’erano dei pezzi che facevano, che non c’entravano niente coi motori Alfa Romeo, erano dei pezzi che venivano fatti poi incellofanati tutti, oliati, eccetera, erano pezzi di V1, venivano mandati in Germania. E mi ricordo perché me ne portò a casa anche qualche dopo la guerra erano rimasti in magazzino, e mi diceva: ‘vedi, questi qui sono pezzi che facevamo per lavoro’, in modo che potete immaginare il controllo dei tedeschi come era, [makes a rhythmic noise], com’era pressante, no, eccetera, in modo che bisognava stare attenti di, se c’era da fare mille pezzi, cercare di farne ottocento, non cento, però ottocento, insomma duecento meno. Per fare questo, le macchine dovevano andare non troppo bene, però non potevano essere manomesse col dire ‘Ah io faccio bruciare il motore elettrico, la macchina non va più!’. No, deve essere sempre il solito bullone semisvitato, il solito dado che manca, il solito filo che si è spelato e ha fatto un po’, e non fa più contatto ma basta riagganciarlo e la macchina riparte, però intanto si perdono le ore, eccetera eccetera, ecco questo era stato fatto, questo mi raccontava che loro sabotaggio ne facevano, però era un sabotaggio, infatti non c’è mai stato in Alfa Romeo una rappresaglia e che erano curati perché, dovete pensare che uno degli azionisti dell’Alfa Romeo era Benito Mussolini, figuriamoci no. Eh, e questo è quello che mi raccontava dei sabotaggi che facevano quando si erano accorti che facevano i pezzi per la V1. E io li ho visti, bellissimi, tutti incartati in carta cellofan, tutto oliato, tutto per bene in scatolette, tutti, sì. Questo, ecco l’unica cosa di sabotaggio che posso dire è questo, altro non saprei. Abbiamo finito? Finito? Alla prossima puntata.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Giovanni Delfino
Description
An account of the resource
Giovanni Delfino was at first evacuated to the Cremona area, where he could see the glow of the distant bombings. He then came back to Milan only to witness a bomb nearly missing his house and killing factory workers. He describes the gruesome sight of undertakers picking up maimed bodies and scattered humans remains: the scene was so shocking that he avoided meat for a while. He recalls wartime episodes: being hurled into a cellar by the blast wave and landing on a pile of sand; stealing pumpkins from a nearby plot and covertly baking them in a ruined house oven; searching for stamps in a bomb crater; the public execution of the actors Osvaldo Valenti and Luisa Ferida; an act of kindness of a German soldier and post-war revenges. He retells his father’s wartime experiences as Resistance runner and Alfa Romeo factory worker: slowing down war-related production; manufacturing V-1 parts destined to Germany, a description of the factory shelter. He mentions his uncle’s wartime experience as tank man, mentioning harsh conditions, a gruesome combat episode in North Africa, surviving torpedoing and being picked up by the Royal Navy.
Creator
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Sara Troglio
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
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2017-10-29
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Peter Schulze
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00:41:14 audio recording
Language
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ita
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ADelfinoG171029
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Cremona
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Resistance
shelter
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/431/7762/POderdaG1801.1.jpg
40274916d06a5d3814d2cf3689fe534d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/431/7762/AOderdaG180107.2.mp3
542bb4c8eb7caa0b5f8febd6acae95a2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oderda, Giovanni
Giovanni Oderda
G Oderda
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giovanni Oderda who recollects his wartime experiences in Dogliani and in the Cuneo province.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Oderda, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Sono Stefano Usai per l’International Bomber Commando Center, stiamo intervistano a Dogliani [omitted], il signor Oderda Gianni, Giovanni in data 7 gennaio 2018.
SU: Signor Oderda mi può raccontare un attimino come viveva la sua famiglia prima del conflitto
GO: e viveva.
SU: e se successivamente ci sono stati dei cambiamenti.
GO: Beh cambiamenti ce ne sono stati tanti, forse fin troppi, noi vivevamo, eravamo una famiglia di misera - no miserabili no perchè si lavorava tutti i miei facevano i mercati, più o meno via, e noi eravamo tutti più o meno a posto perchè si lavorava già allora c’erav - io avevo quattordici anni lavoravo alla fornace qua a Dogliani e i miei due fratelli, uno faceva il barbiere, quello che poi, poi è andato in Australia che è stato vent’anni in Australia e poi il, il più vecchio, faceva il meccanico e l’altro invece più giovane che è vissuto, che è cresciuto praticamente a balia da, da, da gente via che lo tenevano e gli davano un tanto al mese, a tenerlo. E perchè i miei non potevano accudirlo perché erano sempre a fare i mercati e cosa, allora lo lasciavano lì da sta gente, e che lo accudivano che lo tenevano o cosa. Noi purtroppo a scuola andavamo quando ci ricordavamo perché guardi purtroppo i miei andavano a fare il mercato partivano alle tre del mattino col carro e il cavallo e cosa, facevano Murazzano, il Bossolasco tutti quei paesini qua attorno o cosa e ci lasciavano soli a casa. Se, se lasciavano il mangiare quello che si alzava prima mangiava tutto e gli altri purtroppo [laughs] prendevano solo quello che c’era. Se lasciavano i soldi che andavamo a comprare qualcosa da mangiare compravamo caramelle, cioccolato o cosa e mangiare. E purtroppo la vita è quella è, e coso. Però via, abbiamo vissuto abbastanza bene perchè noi ci, ci volevamo bene, infatti eravamo quattro fratelli [interruption] ‘ando ci ricordavamo perché purtroppo lo sa com’è quando si è giovani non si capisce l’importanza che ha invece l’istruzione. Allora la vita era anche più semplice, diversa da adesso, adesso purtroppo se uno non c’ha un certo livello di studi e difficile andare avanti perché le cose sono più complicate e cosa. Forse, noi, per me, si viveva meglio una volta, perché la vita era più semplice perché noi era, c’era più, non c’era la libertà, diciamo così, di criticare il governo, di criticare il fascismo, però si viveva bene perchè c’era più tranquillità, c’era più serietà, c’era tante cose migliore di adesso. Perché per esempio uno che frequentava il bar tre o quattro volte, andavano i carabinieri e gli dicevano ‘te, di cosa vivi? Cosa fai? Come fai a vivere?’ o cosa, c’era molta più serietà nelle cose. Come, non so forse adesso, siamo abituati alla libertà, troppa libertà, tropp - però siamo arrivati a un periodo un po’ troppo, diciamo tra la droga, tra il bullismo tra quelle cose lì, forse per noi ci rimane più sullo stomaco perché non siamo abituati a quelle cose lì. Noi, io mi ricordo che quando andavamo a scuola se avessimo visto a picchiare un bambino disabile o cosa quello lì, non quello che era disabile, l’altro non veniva più a scuola perché gli davamo tutti addosso. Invece adesso sembra ancora che gli proteggono. Noi, per me la vita una volta era più semplice ma era molto, molto e c’era più fratellanza. Io mi ricordo quando c’era il compleanno di, di un amico di coso, eravamo tutti magari solo con due acciughe, con un pezzo di salame o cosa si, si faceva festa tutti assieme, lì si beveva un, un bicchier di vino, c’era più fratellanza, c’era più, più amicizia più, più cose, via, che oggi non ci son, non esistono più. Io vedi, vai davanti a un bar vedi, c’è dieci macchine, che sarà, il bar sarà pieno, non c’è quasi nessuno. Solo uno per macchina. Noi andavamo al cinema a Brà, mi ricordo, salivamo sei, sette su una macchina per le spese così erano minime. E o cosa. Era tutta, tutta una vita all’[unclear] , non so, oggi è una vita proprio totalmente diversa. Anche davanti, vai, a una sala da ballo o cosa, una volta chi si sognava di aprire una sala da ballo e cominciavano a ballare a mezzanotte, a mezzanotte noi andavamo a casa, da ballare. Perché eh no - non so per forza poi succedono quel che succedono e o cosa. Tra la droga, tra, tra il bere, tra il cosa, e una cosa. Poi anche le donne se - a un certo punto, non è che, perché una donna c’ha la minigonna o perché è mezza nuda che uno la deve violentare, però purtroppo, eh, succede anche quello, perché poi c’è anche tutta la razza di gente che ormai son venuto dall’esterno o cosa che vivono qua e o cosa, se, se ne approfittano di certe cose, perché poi imparano anche quelli del posto, imparano tante cose che. La malavita, noi una volta qua non esisteva in questi paesi qua, la vita era molto semplice era molto tranquilla non c’era tutti sti esteri non c’era. Io, l’altro giorno ero a Mondovì e sembrava, d’essere, d’essere in Africa, c’era più gente di colore che gente de, dei nostri che viaggiavano lì dalla stazione o cosa. Hanno dovuto chiudere il bar della stazione di Mondovì perché succedevano co - cose incredibili in quel bar. Adesso vai a Mondovì che devi aspettare il treno che arriva magari c’è, c’è un po’ di, di ritardo o cosa, devi star lì nella sala d’aspetto magari al freddo perché il bar è chiuso e non lo aprono più e un - una cosa incredibile. Paesi che una volta c’era una tranquillità.
SU: Quindi, prima del conflitto
GO: E?
SU: e poi durant - quando è iniziata la seconda guerra mondiale diciamo, quando sono arrivate le difficoltà
GO: le difficoltà
SU: Lei e i suoi fratelli come avete affrontato la cosa?
GO: e abbiamo affrontato e poi e
SU: Cosa è cambiato rispetto a prima?
GO: Mio fratello più vecchio era andato nei partigiani era nella, nella cosa di, di Lulù era una, una squadra autonoma, e poi qua su [unclear] tutti, qua attorno i partigiani e via dicendo e qua si viveva e coso. Poi lì era terribile in quegli anni lì perché incominciava il coso, e il fascismo e il comunismo e il coso era una cosa tremenda quegli anni eh, perchè tra i partigiani poi ogni tanto arrivavano la, la Repubblica o i tedeschi o cosa e coso, erano anni, erano anni tristi, tristi, tristi. Poi mi ricordo io avevo quattordici anni, quindici ero anche io nei partigiani, o cosa, e in campagna al freddo, si dormiva nelle stalle piene di pidocchi e un po’ di tutto era una cosa miserabile proprio, perché poi allora cosa vuoi il mangiare si andava nelle cascine o che gli porta - portavi via il coniglio che gli prendevi la, la gallina o il pollo. Giustamente loro si lamentavano no - noi di qualcosa bisognava vivere, i partigiani o cosa le squadre e poi, sia - siamo d’accordo che poi se ne approfittavano anche i partigiani perché alle volte magari andavano nella casa dove, dove avevano avuto delle parole che avevano avuto e gli prendevano i, il bovino o cosa e lo macellavano perché mangiare bisognava mangiare purtroppo allora e. Poi succede il tempo, il tempo allora quando è stato l’8 settembre che è successo lo sbandamento era una cosa terribile. Perché se te avevi, qualche avuto, qualche discussione qualcosa c’eran le vendette, c’era - dicevano che era, era fascista quello lì, quello là, erano tutte vendette che han fatto dopo che coso se ne è approfittato dell’8 settembre la gente. Ma in più tanti se ne - Noi eravamo giovani, quello, però si notavano delle cose terribili eh, perché hanno ucciso della gente mi ricordo il farmacista di Dogliani, il podestà, il segretario, che hanno ucciso mi ricordo, via, a Belvedere o cosa, gli hanno ammazzati. Erano fascisti, però erano brava gente, era gente che han sempre aiutato. Mi ricordo il farmacista, specialmente di Dogliani c’era gente che, che era militare, i giovani che erano militari, gli mandava i soldi a gratis, perché sapevano che i suoi non avevano i soldi da mandarci qualcosa a sti ragazzi. E loro glieli mandavano, mi ricordo giocavano il calcio, davano dieci lire ogni goal che si faceva, per, per alimentarci a giocar meglio o cosa. Beh lo hanno ucciso, lo hanno ucciso i partigiani eh. Lo hanno sotterrato come, come un disperato, lì. Sono state cose che forse io non so, io, non sono mai stato in nessun partito, mai, non mi è mai interessato io, ho sempre vissuto la mia vita tranquilla e cosa. Vedere quelle cose lì faceva dispiacere. Perché gente che io le ho conosciute bene, gente che se, del male non lo avevano mai fatto, avevano il coso di essere fascisti però allora purtroppo in quei tempi se non avevi la tessera del fascio non potevi neanche fare lo spazzino, perché non ti prendevano. O se, o prendevi la tessera del fascio altrimenti non prendevi nessun impiego, nel municipio, nel, da nessuna parte, era obbligato. E poi il brutto eh, che dopo la guerra, quella gente lì, i più tanti sono venuto comunisti. Quello ha fatto ancora più dispiacere. Perché mi ricordo gente che ci faceva, quando, noi, io ero balilla allora, eh, i miei fratelli erano già avanguardisti perché ogni epoca, degli anni, c’era i balilli c’erano gli avanguardisti e andavano in piazza d’armi a fare già le esercitazioni da militare, già allora, pensi. E cosa, cosa succedeva, che poi quella gente lì, che erano in divisa, da fascisti, che ci facevano fare tutte quelle istruzioni dopo la guerra su, erano tutti comunisti. Hanno cambiato il colore, i più tanti. Quelle cose lì facevano dispiacere, purtroppo è stato così, una cosa guardi, han fatto delle, delle cose tremende, delle cose. Dicevano ‘fascisti’ poi andavano in casa e gli portavano via la roba, come anche i tedeschi che arrivavano a, a cercare i partigiani andavano a apra - aprire i cassetti o cosa, per cercare altre cose altro che i partigiani. Era tutta una co - è diventata una cosa terribile. Io ho perso i due zii che poverini erano arrivati dalla russia, che avevano i piedi congelati quando è stato lo sbandamento qua, che c’è stato un rastrellamento dei partigiani qua, loro poverini erano nei campi, si sono asconti sotto al del, del, del fu - del fulcato [?] quel coso lì in campagna, li han trovati lì e li hanno fucilati tutti e due, lì nel mulino lì, allora c’eran stati tanti morti in quel periodo lì, quando c’è stato il, il rastrellamento dei, dei parti - dei partigiani qua. C’era venuto il fascismo, sono venuti da Cuneo, da tutto, c’era una [unclear] qua, han fatto un, un rastrellamento, una cosa, qualcuno e cosa, c’è stato guardi una cosa, a raccontarla così sembra che sia impossibile che sia successo tutte quelle cose. Mi ricordo poi anche tra i partigiani c’era l’invidia, c’era la cgil, c’era, c’era, quelli di Mao e c’era quel, tra loro c’era, era diventato una, una cosa tremenda, in tutte le cose, bisognava fare attenzione perché se ti scappava - Allora ammazzavano la gente come ammazzare un coniglio eh, abbiamo passato dei, dei periodi che raccontarlo sembra impossibile, una cosa, una cosa terribile è stata proprio un. Una mezza invidia che avevano con uno si vendicavano, dicevano ‘quello è fascista’ lo facevano uccidere o altrimenti gli facevano dei dispetti, ho passato dei momenti triste ma triste, triste proprio, una cosa che guardi io alle volte mi viene ancora a raccontarlo ancora mi viene la pelle d’oca perchè è stato proprio. Poi il bombardamento non ne parliamo perché quello è stato, eh.
SU: Esatto, il giorno del bombardamento lei dove si trovava?
GO: Io, ero proprio lì, nel bar Riviera che c’è li in piazza, eravamo lì nel dehors, ho visto proprio il, quando è arrivato l’apparecchio, perché allora sentire un apparecchio era una cosa [laughs], non come adesso, che ha sganciato proprio le bombe, proprio lì, allora non c’era ancora quel palazzo che c’è adesso lì, lì c’era i giardini pubblici. Lì dove c’è quel, quel coso lì, quel palazzo lì, palazzo del sole si chiama. Allora lì, era tutto libero, lì c’era i giardini pubblici e si vedeva solo l’ospedale che c’era ancora adesso lì, lì ha sganciato le bombe lì. L’apparecchio era italiano, non era estero eh, perchè si vedeva bene, anzi poi, noi quando ha cominciato a, perchè poi ha cominciato a mitragliare la gente che scappava, noi eravamo lì ci siamo messi nel, nel cortile lì c’era una grotta ci siamo infilati lì sotto per non uscire. Quando sono uscito che sono andato lì in piazza era un disastro, gente lì sfracassata, tu - tutta a pezzi, tu - tu - una cosa, una cosa terribile via. E poi il giorno dopo era arrivato la, i tedeschi e la Repubblica, c’era stato la colonna lì, han bruciato diverse case lì in Gioliani [?], lì a San Rocco tutto lì venendo sù. Perché poi lì cosa è successo, che i partigiani erano sopra appostati hanno sparato alla colonna repubblicana che veniva in Dogliani, e lì è stato quello che, che ha fatto traboccare il vaso, che poi gli hanno bruciato le case, sono già venuti con l’intenzione di bruciarle non si sà. Comunque allora dicevano che, perché lì c’era una donna con una figlia qua a Dogliani, gente che veniva da Torino che era sfollata lì, dicevano che era una spia e gli avevano tagliato i capelli sia alla figlia che a, alla madre. E quello che è venuto a bombardar - ha bombardato Dogliani era, era lì a far servizio a coso, qua, adesso i nomi mi sfuggono, un po lì vicino a Fossano dove c’è i, Levaldigi. C’è il campo di aviazione, lui era lì come pilota, dicevano non so se era il compagno o se era il marito, che era, comunque per vendicarsi è venuto a bombardare Dogliani. Perchè si vedeva bene dal coso, perché era proprio basso, proprio altezza di case quasi eh, quando ha sganciato la bomba, una l’ha sganciata lì dove c’è, adesso c’è il cinema, lì c’era una, una pompa, poi c’era una galleria lì l’ha presa proprio in pieno e poi ha preso lì in pieno una casa lì dove c’era una sartoria con, con la famiglia Giaccheri è stata quasi tutta, tutta morta, che poi i figli e i nipoti sono poi rimasti in Australia vivono ancora adesso in Australia. Comunque lì è stato un disastro proprio, è andata bene che doveva esserci una sepoltura, poi l’hanno rimandata altrimenti c’era tutta la gente lì e avrebbe fatto un massacro completo. È stata una cosa, io poi sono venuto su e quello mi è rimasto, ancora adesso ogni tanto te lo sogni di notte eh, quella cosa di vedere una testa da una parte una gamba dall’altra, una cosa proprio, nei nostri posti che non avevamo mai visto una cosa del genere, una cosa brutale proprio, all’indomani ancora è venuto la colonna ancora ha bruciato case e ancora ammazzato della gente, ancora il giorno dopo.
SU: La città non si sarebbe mai aspettata di subire un bombardamento, di essere attaccata da?
GO: Ma neanche per sogno, puoi immaginare. Qua non c’era, non c’era niente da distruggere. Se non l’han fatto per, proprio per quello, per una vendetta lo han fatto. Perchè altrimento che, cosa fare? Qua a bombardare cosa? C’era mica niente da bombardare non c’erano ne fabbriche, ne ponti, ne niente, proprio è stata una vendetta di questo qua che, chè così, perché avevano tagliato i capelli dice - alla moglie o alla compagna chi era e alla figlia.
SU: E lei personalmente come ha reagito a questi due giorni, il giorno del bombardamento
GO: E guardi poi io
SU: e il rastrellamento successivo?
GO: Sono scappato, sono andato di nuovo nei partigiani o cosa, ero, ero in campagna o cosa. Perchè proprio mi è rimasta, anche i miei poi erano sfollati erano andati via anche i miei, miei genitori e tutto, eravamo tutti nei partigiani e i, i miei fratelli e tutto. I miei fratelli, uno il più vecchio era ella banda Lulù che era una squadra di sette, dieci o dodici elementi e o cosa, e io invece ero con un genio che è stato la rovina dei partigiani qua. Perché ha fatto delle cose. Perché poi la disgrazia più grande e quando Lulù è andato a Fossano che, a liberare i politici e invece dei politici sono usciti tutti, delinquenti, non delinquenti e si sono sparpagliati in tutta, da - dalla langa a qua e ne han fatte di tutti i colori, han rovinato anche il buon nome dei partigiani e tutto. Perché lì non erano gente che erano lì in galera per il partito o per il coso, lì erano perché ave - erano delinquenti e quando sono andati lì han liberati tutti, credevano che erano politici, che erano politici e fra l’altro c’ero anche io quando abbiamo aperto tutte ste, le carceri eh. Avessi visto sono usciti tutti di lì, delinquenti non delinquenti, e invece di fare un piacere ci siamo creati un danno, per tutti eh, per il nome dei partigiani per il nome di tutti, si sono sparpagliati qua nelle langhe, si sono infilati coi partigiani o cosa e ne hanno combinate di tutti i colori.
SU: Una volta che la città è stata attaccata e il, quel giorno. Temevate che potevass - che potesse risuccedere?
GO: E no, poi non è più successo sa perché? Perchè poi si sono venute a stabilire qua la Repubblica. Lì al ristorante Reale e nel, nel coso di Einaudi, lassù c’era, c’era un comando de - delle, delle brigate nere. Allora era più tranquillo perché c’erano loro capito? C’erano i partigiani qua intorno, poi è successo che hanno fatto un’alleanza di non disturbo, mi ricordo tanti anni fa, tanti anni fa, allora, in quei tempi siamo andati a parlamentare con la Repubblica lì al Reale, c’era l’albergo Reale, lì in piazza principale di Dogliani e siamo andati a parlamentare per non, lasciar perdere che ormai la guerra era, era già lì, mentre che sembrava dovesse finire via, dovesse cosa, l’alleanza di non disturbarsi ognuno faccia se - il suo coso e via, si è creato abbastanza tranquillità diciamo. Tranquillità per modo di dire però via, loro non si, non ci attaccavano noi non attaccavamo loro e andato avanti così per e ha fiorito [?] c’era anche un’altra squadra di repubblicani, al Leon D’Oro ce ne era degli altri, erano, si erano stabiliti qua a Dogliani perché qua attorno allora c’eran tu - tutti i partigiani eh, qua la Langa era tutta piena, di partigiani e coso, e allora di lì loro vivevano tranquilli qua noi si viveva tranquilli nella Langa e coso e via aspettando che arrivasse l’armistizio. Che poi quando è arrivato il, che poi siamo andati a Torino coi camion tutto a festeggiare a fare, poi a Torino è successo anche la, poi è successo che c’è i repubblicani o cosa lì, le vendette, le, pfuu. Torino guardi è stato lì casa Reale mi ricordo quando è arrivato, è arrivato gli americani lì nella casa Reale noi eravamo lì, partigiani vivevamo lì nella casa Reale o cosa [laughs], sono arrivati lì, sulle macchine sui cosa, avevano di tutto. Noi non avevamo ne sigarette, ne niente quello lì erano pieni di cioccolato, caramelle, tutte di tutto, ci sa [laughs] abbiamo sbarazzato tutte le macchine c’han - c’hanno mandato via. Ci hanno detto ‘basta, adesso voi altri ve ne andate di qua’ noi, hoop, è stato, guardi è stato raccon - racconti da favola proprio, via, una cosa.
SU: E poi lei quando è tornato a Dogliani dopo la guerra?
GO: E dopo la guerra, quando è stato l’armistizio o cosa e siamo ritornati a casa e via, abbiamo preso il nostro lavoro. Io mi sono messo a lavorare alla fornace avevo quattordici anni andavo a, quindici andavo alla fornace qua, infatti quando sono andato in pensione le prime, le prime marchette le avevo del ‘43, dunque, per il primo anno che prima di andare nei partigiani lavoravo alla fornace poi l’avevo di nuovo nel ‘46 quando poi, quando ‘45 finita la guerra noi nel ‘46 andavamo di nuovo a lavorare alla fornace, finché poi ho fatto il militare, ero autista a un colonnello da militare. Perché allora chi avesse la patente non c’erano tanti eh, che mi ricordo io avevo fatto il militare a Pesaro eravamo in cinquemila milit - cinquemila reclute a cosa a fare i campi, lì a Pesaro e saremo stati trecento quattrocento che avevamo la patente [laughs] allora. Adesso ormai ce l’hanno tutti a diciotto anni, allora io l’avevo presa a diciassette, perché allora in quegli anni lì se il papà firmava la responsabilità la potevi prendere un anno prima, a diciassette anni prendevi già la patente e infatti io preso prima patente l’ho presa a diciassette anni, avevo speso cinquecento lire a prendere la patente in quegli anni. Via, io la vita poi l’ho vissuta bene perché ho sempre lavorato giorno e notte proprio lì ho lavorato trent’anni dal mio principale finché è morto, ho lavorato lì. Ho fatto una volta otto giorni di ferie in trent’anni, quasi [?]. E cosa, poi di lì lui quando è mancato ha dato via l’azienda e io non mi trovavo bene, ho cambiato sono andato a direttore vendite a Roveto e di Cherasco e ho finito i miei giorni lì, diciamo. Non i miei giorni [laughs] ma la mia attività lavorativa l’ho finita lì. Il pollo ora era, pensi che allora si macellava da ottanta a centomila polli la settimana, eravamo un bel - bello smercio avevamo una bi [?] avevo una bella clientela, molti clienti erano amici perchè ho cominciato proprio dal principio lì i primi allevamenti di polli. Perchè allora polli io mi ricordo il ‘43, del ‘52, ‘53 polli si faceva un po’ di mercato ma qualcuno che proprio, la massaia che portava tre o quattro polli lì a vendere in piazza eh, era poco, poi è cominciato gli allevamenti pian pianino, poi è venuta un’invasione di polli che è stata una cosa. Io ho lavorato, ho cominciato tra i primi, molti clienti erano amici infatti quando sono andato via da quella ditta lì, che sono andato nell’altra ditta i clienti glieli ho presi quasi tutti, i clienti miglio - che ave - aveva lì, infatti loro dopo due anni hanno chiuso la ditta perché i clienti glieli ho presi tutti. Ero io via, oltre che un [unclear] detto ma avrebbe, avevo fatto un’amicizia come clienti perché sono stato uno dei primi a vendere i polli da allevamento in giro. Tutto, tutta la Liguria facevo da Genova fino a La Spezia tutti, quasi tutti i giorni, facevo centomila chilometri all’anno con la macchina eh, in quei tempi. I primi facevo fare, ho fatto il tirocinio andavo io a fare le consegne perché avevo le chiavi di tutti i negozi perché allora col camion se non scaricavi ve - alle tre alle quattro dopo mezzanotte, Genova o cosa in quei cavucci [?] non entravi coi camion eh, perché le macchine una cosa e l’altra, invece lì avevo le chiavi aprivo i negozi scaricavo la roba ai clienti, facevo il mio giro e tutto io al mattino alle sei o alle sette avevo già finito le consegne ai clienti e coso, con le chiavi e tutto, gli mettevo la roba in frigo, tutto a posto, via, anche per quello che poi questi clienti mi rispettavano, perché per tutte, passavo in mezzo alle notti, a portarci la roba e tutto e o cosa e allora i clienti, quei clienti lì me li ho porta - portati finché ho smesso di lavorare lì.
SU: va bene, grazie mille signor Oderda per aver lasciato questa testimonianza.
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Title
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Interview with Giovanni Oderda
Description
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Giovanni Oderda recollects the 8 September 1943 Dogliani bombing. Claims that the town was hit because partisans shaved a fascist woman; after the attack Giovanni and his family left the town. He and his brothers ended up in the partisan ranks where they remained until the end of the conflict.
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Stefano Usai
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2018-01-07
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Zeno Gaiaschi
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00:29:23 audio recording
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ita
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Sound
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AOderdaG180107
POderdaG1801
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Civilian
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Dogliani
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1943-09-08
1943-09-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
evacuation
home front
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2221/38713/MB CR 5 Giuliana Menichini Pereira.2.mp3
3fb8117b43a28a9945f404d2d3ce4162
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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ISRPt. Survivors of the 1943-1944 Pistoia bombings
Description
An account of the resource
12 interviste a testimoni dei bombardamenti alleati di Pistoia, realizzate da Claudio Rosati tra il 1983 e il 1984 con l'intento di comprendere e studiare gli effetti che le incursioni aeree hanno avuto sulla popolazione civile tra il 1943 e il 1944. Gli esiti della ricerca furono esposti al convegno internazionale di studi “Linea Gotica. Eserciti, popolazioni, partigiani” svoltosi a Pesaro il 27/28/29 settembre 1984 e pubblicati nella rivista Farestoria n. 1/1985, edita dall'Istituto storico della Resistenza di Pistoia. L’istituto, dove le cassette sono state in seguito depositate, ha gentilemente concesso all’IBCC di digitalizzarle e di pubblicarle in licenza. Le interviste conservano la struttura originale, che può essere diversa dal modo in cui le interviste dell’IBCC Digital Archive sono di solito realizzate. La digitalizzazione rispecchia fedelmente le caratteristiche delle registrazioni originali, con minimi interventi. In base agli accordi con il licenziatario, i sunti delle interviste sono dati in italiano ed inglese.
12 oral history interviews with survivors of the Pistoia bombings, originally taped by Claudio Rosati between 1983 and 1984 with the aim to understand the fallout of the 1943-1944 operations on civilians. The findings were presented at the international symposium “Linea Gotica. Eserciti, popolazioni, partigiani” (Pesaro, 27/28/29 September 1984) and then published on 'Farestoria' n. 1/1985, published by the Istituto storico della Resistenza di Pistoia. The Istituto, where the tapes were later deposited, has kindly granted permission to the IBCC Digital Archive to digitise and publish them. Interviews published here retain their original format, which may differ from the way IBCC Digital Archive ones are normally conducted. The digitisation captures faithfully the characteristics of the original recordings with minimal editing only. According to the stipulations with the licensor, summaries are provided in Italian and English.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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GMP: Perché c’erano tutti i bengala, so che era così, tutte le notti più o meno si sentiva questo ricognitore, quella notte lì io non sentii niente ovviamente, loro cominciarono a sentire questo aeroplano, dopo un po’ sorte il mi’ babbo – [incomprensibile] per avermelo raccontato dopo, è chiaro – il mi’ babbo disse ‘Questo aeroplano non mi garba, qui mi sembran troppi, mi sembran più di uno’.
CR: E vi eravate già abituati –
GMP: Tutte le notti faceva [incomprensibile].
[parlano contemporaneamente]
GMP: Dopo l’8 settembre questo, perché era nell’ottobre, un mi ricordo la data ma era nell’ottobre. Allora, lui poi si alzò, aprì un pochino la finestra e vide che [incomprensibile] [rumori di sottofondo] i bengala, allora mi svegliarono, ci si vestì alla bell’e meglio, ‘Via, via, perché qui bombardano’, infatti mentre ci si vestiva cominciò il bombardamento. Io mi ricordo, insomma, si scese in strada che – illuminato a giorno [incomprensibile] sembrava uno spettacolo bello insomma, tutto sommato, [incomprensibile] e ci si trovò a scappare noi tre: io, lui e la mi’ mamma, con dei vicini di casa: marito, moglie e una bimbina di circa un anno, scappando così alla cieca, senza – senza rendersi neanche ben conto di quello che poteva essere, cioè, forse il mi’ babbo sì, perché avendo avuto –
CR: Quindi lei quanti anni aveva all’epoca?
GMP: Dunque sono del ‘28, era nel ‘43, nell’ottobre del ‘43, sicché quindici anni.
CR: Ma dove stavate?
GMP: In via Monte Sabotino.
CR: Ah, senti [incomprensibile]
GMP: Ma non in quella casa lì dove tu c’hai conosciuto te, un po’ –
CR: Allora scappaste nei campi.
GMP: Si scappò, si scappò praticamente dove poi si fece la casa, si fece la casa. Allora lì eran tutti campi, per l’incirca, circa – che so – cinquecento metri ci sarà stato.
CR: Ma le bombe le vedeste?
GMP: Si vedevano sì e no, cioè io di questo ho ricordo – ecco, del primo bombardamento ho un ricordo preciso, così, però so che si scappava sentendo queste bombe, magari ogni tanto guardando, però c’era questa grande illuminazione di questi bengala [incomprensibile] era di notte fra l’altro.
CR: Ma ve l’aspettavate o no che bombardassero?
GMP: No, perché io so che ho il ricordo un po’ vago tra l’8 di settembre e questo primo bombardamento. Io mi ricordo dell’8 settembre dell’Armistizio, dei soldati in fuga e tutte queste cose qui, poi da questo a arrivare al bombardamento il ricordo è vago, so che si pensava giustamente [?] che vabbè, c’è l’Armistizio, ci sarà anche la guerra, siamo a posto [?] invece cominciò ovviamente – cominciò la guerra di resistenza e cominciarono i bombardamenti americani, degli Alleati che risalivano poi l’Italia, ecco, e io mi ricordo questo primo bombardamento, così insomma, ecco, senza – non lo so – forse più che paura stupore, perché inesperien – perché non avendo mai visto di queste cose – magari il mi’ babbo se n’è subito – ‘Questi son fuochi di bengala, bombardano’. Secondo me all’inizio era tutto – che so – tipo fochi d’artificio insomma, ecco, però ovviamente poi la paura ci fu. Però mi ricordo in questa casa di contadini con altra gente, vicini di casa nostra, si rimase un po’ allibiti, non si sapeva appunto [incomprensibile] senza rendersi ben conto neanche forse in quel momento lì di chi ci bombardava, se gli americani o i tedeschi insomma, probabilmente non ci si poneva neanche questa domanda, era – era una confusione e basta.
CR: Ma poi ce ne fu altri?
GMP: A me mi sembra che siano stati cinque bombardamenti, però, che io mi ricordo bene sono questo, che è il primo, e l’ultimo, l’ultimo che fu – non mi ricordo – so che fu nel novembre del ‘43, che – ecco – quegli altri tre – so che furono cinque bombardamenti. Io quegli altri tre l’ho in mente più vagamente, so che magari c’erano frequenti allarmi e si scappava e poi il cessato allarme e magari non era successo nulla, si tornava alle nostre case tranquillamente, questo ultimo [rumori in sottofondo] l’ultimo fu il più grosso, perché fu in varie ondate, a ripetizione e a tappeto, cioè, ecco, ho in mente precisa questa cosa – da ragazzini ci si ricorda sempre di vederli spuntare da dove praticamente tramonta il sole – veder spuntare questo stormo d’aeroplani, questo rombo lo sento ancora, te lo immagini – bombardavano proprio passando, a tappeto, senza scegliere forse neanche posti ben precisi e di laggiù apparivano e di lassù sparivano, sicché si tirava un pochino il fiato e come riapparivan di laggiù e poi successe quattro o cinque volte, ecco, fu un bombardamento veramente –
CR: Ma c’era risentimento verso chi bombardava o no?
GMP: Non direi, perché, non so bene – come dire – com’è stata, non c’è stata forse una propaganda, però forse io penso un po’ inconsciamente c’è stata la, la, la percezione che questa gente doveva far così per poter – per poter venire, per potersi liberare da quello che era –
CR: Ecco, c’era questa [incomprensibile].
GMP: C’era, forse più a livello inconscio penso, che –
CR: Che in modo consapevole –
[parlano contemporaneamente]
GMP: Però c’era, almeno, ecco, se ripenso alle mie situazioni – come dire – quel che ho pensato ultimamente, so che ci venivan a bombardare, però lo devon fare perché devono risalire [incomprensibile] ovviamente erano – come esperienze non erano simpatiche [?] ecco.
CR: Ma con un po’ di paura siete rimasti? Cioè, dopo cinque bombardamenti [incomprensibile].
GMP: Mah, non lo so. Erano – guarda – eran sempre un po’ strani, almeno per quel che mi riguarda, insomma, e penso che più o meno fosse per tutti così, perché pur vivendo il pericolo era costante, di tante cose per esempio, no, perché poi quando proprio qui diventò fronte, quindi era costante il pericolo dei missili e rappresaglie e allora cominciarono le azioni partigiane per esempio, quindi si sapeva che c’era pericolo di tante cose e però – come dire – non lo so se la vita ha veramente un – come si dice –
CR: Delle difese.
GMP: Delle difese ma anche, ecco, soprattutto va avanti sopra ogni cosa insomma, in qualche modo va perché ovviamente si continuava a chiacchierare, si continuava a ridere, si continuava a parlare di tutte le cose insomma, ovviamente in mezzo alle paure, in mezzo – oltre ai bombardamenti poi ci son stati i cannoneggiamenti, tedeschi che arrivavano e sembravano – guardavano – magari il pericolo degli omini giovani che se li portassero via, insomma, tutte queste cose ecco, però la vita andava avanti comunque insomma, bene o male, morti ce n’era [incomprensibile].
CR: Quindi non è che è rimasto qualcosa del ricordo dei bombardamenti che dopo la guerra abbia continuato a sognare – che abbia lasciato nulla, ecco?
GMP: No, io solo per po’ di tempo so che sono stata – come dire – quando si sentiva gli aeroplani mi davano un po’ noia, però c’è una cosa da dire, che quando li sento – a volte ci sono quei caccia che provengon da Pisa che passano bassi con quel rombo costante, mi dà una certa sensazione, a volte dico ‘Quest’aerei, gira gira –’ [ride]. Davvero, questo me lo fa ancora, non è una sensazione di paura, però in un certo senso di irrequietezza insomma, ecco, che non – non mi garban troppo ecco, perché queste cose – questi rumori mi sono rimasti, ecco, bene negli orecchi, il rumore degli apparecchi soprattutto, ma anche delle bombe, di quel rovinio, di tutto quel – quel – la gente che scappava – un era da dire – come si faceva per esempio a rimanere uniti le famiglie? A parte noi che eravamo tre, ma [incomprensibile] famiglie che avean più figlioli, quando si scappava in quella maniera lì, in maniera disordinata, in maniera – senza avere neanche, diciamo, un indirizzo da dire, un so, ‘Andando lì siamo più sicuri’. Inconsciamente si scappava sempre verso la campagna, ovviamente in punti più aperti[?] [rumori di sottofondo] e quindi era – si scappava un po’ così, senza [incomprensibile].
CR: La gente lo sapeva che [incomprensibile] bombardano o no?
GMP: No, no, dopo si sapeva che –
CR: Cioè sapevate che –
GMP: Si sapeva che erano gli americani e tant’è vero – ecco – c’era – si sentiva a volte dire da alcune persone ‘Sì, eh, ma, ci verranno anche a liberare, per il momento c’ammazzano’. Era chiaro, in quei momenti venivano e di morti [?] ne facevano insomma, ecco, però ovviamente c’era questa situazione che dovevano farlo per doverci liberare.
CR: [incomprensibile]
GMP: Questa era netta, perché [incomprensibile] si sopportava anche abbastanza bene e abbastanza volentieri perché il fatto dei tedeschi – cioè, erano troppo – il modo di fare loro ovviamente non era – non c’era [incomprensibile].
CR: [incomprensibile]
GMP: Sì, dopo l’ultimo bombardamento sì, me lo ricordo, che si scappò, che allora dopo si sfollò [incomprensibile].
PM: La gente per le strade [incomprensibile] mi dicevano [incomprensibile] ‘Fermati, fermati’ [enfasi] e io [incomprensibile] con la città sottosopra, bombardata [incomprensibile] ero in un fosso, rimpiattato, [incomprensibile] la città era annientata completamente.
CR: Ma lei aveva paura Menichini? In quei momenti s’ha paura o no?
PM: S’ha paura perché si scapp – un si sapea doe scappare. Quando arrivonno le squadriglie facean paura, chi scappava da una parte, chi da un’altra, io scappai sull’Arca [incomprensibile] quando arrivai – quando arrivai in cima all’Arcadia c’era la moglie di un omo che conoscevo, stava per lì, mi fece ‘Mi porti via’ [enfasi] [incomprensibile] io tirai e andai avanti, quando arrivai a casa – passai di lì dietro casa – [incomprensibile] e vado su, trovo [incomprensibile] lungo i muri, lungo i cigli, di qua e di là ‘Fermati, fermati’ [enfasi] e si sentia le bombe, era un terremoto continuamente, un terremoto [incomprensibile] la San Giorgio era tutto un monte di macerie, la città era – era completamente spaventosa, facea pietà.
CR: Ecco, ma secondo voi volevano colpire degli obiettivi precisi o anche civili, oppure sbagliavano? Cosa pensav – cioè che ce l’avessero – volevano bombardare indiscriminatamente –
GMP: No, io credo che –
CR: Secondo voi, quello che pensavate allora.
GMP: Secondo quello che si pensava allora era una – come dire – un cercar di colpire obiettivi che potessero danneggiare diciamo, ecco –
CR: Non quindi la popolazione –
GMP: Non la popolazione. Ovviamente, in effetti appunto, quando la gente poi cominciò a sfollare si cercavano le zone di campagna dove non passassero strade, ferrovie e robe del genere, perché appunto cercavano di colpire quei posti lì insomma, le fabbriche, se ce n’erano, e via discorrendo, sicché ovviamente era un cercar di colpire appunto alcuni obiettivi in modo da favorire la loro avanzata, però la popolazione in qualche modo c’andava di mezzo perché è chiaro: non si può colpire preciso qui insomma, quello che mi ricordo – un’altra cosa che a me m’è sempre rimasta in mente, avevo sempre tanto pensato quando il mi’ babbo mi raccontava della Prima guerra, no, pensavo ‘Come sarà un rombo di cannone, una bomba che scoppia?’
CR: Sicché il babbo gliel’aveva raccontato.
GMP: Me lo raccontava della guerra, però è una cosa – un si riesce a immaginarla, veramente, bisogna sentirla, ecco, però è bene che non la sentano la gente, meno possibile, perché è proprio una cosa terribile.
CR: Ma lei l’ha raccontato poi dei bombardamenti? Nel dopoguerra si raccontava ai figlioli –?
GMP: Glie n’ho parlato poco, veramente, perché cioè se c’è qualcosa, per esempio la televisione, e mi interessa e a volte, per dire, se son qui ‘Ragazzi rendetevi conto di quel che era, di quel che è, di quel che potrebbe essere se –’ ora poi sarebbe terribile insomma, ci sarebbe da scappare, però non è che glie n’ho parlato mai molto no, forse perché, come dire, in un certo senso sarebbe meglio scordarle certe cose, ma insomma non è neanche spiacevole [?] ricordarle, così mi capita in dei momenti di parlarne –
CR: I morti si sapevano allora – quando successero i bombardamenti quanti morti c’era stato [incomprensibile] –?
GMP: Ma le notizie giravano, ma più che altro di bocca in bocca, non è che ci fosse gran punti di informazione –
PM [?]: [incomprensibile]
GMP: Quello non so se fu nell’ultimo bombardamento o in uno dei bombardamenti dopo –
CR: Ma degli Zanzotto?
GMP: Degli Zanzotto –
CR: Lei se lo ricorda?
GMP: Io me lo ricordo perfettamente sì, erano – erano – non mi ricordo se a desinare o a cena, so che era in un’ora di mangiare, ecco, che venne questo bombardamento e che questi si addossarono in questa stanza, otto – mi pare erano dodici i figlioli a quell’epoca là, sì – otto a una parete, cioè il babbo e la mamma con sei figlioli, e gli altri sei ragazzi s’addossarono all’altra parete e si videro crollare tutta la parete, queste cose qui, poi altra gente che mi ricordi – ecco, questo quando c’era già il fronte che c’erano i cannoneggiamenti, non più i bombardamenti dall’alto quanto proprio il cannone, che so, gente che magari faceva la fila per prendere il pane, per prendere il sale, anche le sigarette, si fumava e si faceva la fila anche per quelle ovviamente – n’è morti diversi che io mi ricordi insomma, si sentiva dire ‘Sai, è morto il tale, stamani la bomba di cannone è scoppiata mentre si faceva la fila’ così e cosà, però magari le fonti di informazione [incomprensibile] c’era la radio –
[parlano contemporaneamente]
GMP: Sì, sì, sì, quello si sentiva, era all’ordine del giorno sempre e poi durante lo sfollamento i tedeschi che venivano, ci venivan per casa. Mi ricordo una volta – una volta che eravamo – eravamo diversi in quella casa sfollati, diverse famiglie e – non so se ti può interessare questa cosa –
CR: Sì, sì, sì, mi interessa tutto in realtà.
GMP: E c’era una stanza su, era il granaio insomma, in questa stanza praticamente – perché questa casa era a ridosso della montagna, sicché da questa stanza – mentre dal davanti della casa era due piani e si rimaneva tutto aperto di fronte, dalla parte dietro della casa. In quest’ultima stanza era facile saltare nel bosco insomma, allora quella era la stanza degli omoni giovani con i vari segnali di – di – diciamo – le parole per potersi intendere se potevano uscire o meno.
PM: I segnali –
GMP: Sì, sì, ricordo per esempio “La pasta asciutta è pronta” voleva dire che non c’erano tedeschi in giro e poteano scendere un pochinino, ecco, oppure – insomma mi ricordo questa sera che eravamo tutti per lì, queste famiglie in questo casone, sfollati –
PM: [incomprensibile]
GMP: A questo punto bussarono e erano quattro o cinque tedeschi, col mitra, ovviamente. Io di quell’armi aveo una paura cane – insomma mi puntaron questo mitra alle costole – ecco, una cosa è certa: ho una paura matta delle armi, come feci a non avere tanta – non lo so, ero abbastanza tranquilla e s’andò per tutta la casa, cercavano uomini di [incomprensibile] sicché si girò, qui che c’è, là che c’è, via via dicevo ‘Qui c’è la camera della mia famiglia’ qui c’è questo, qui c’è quell’altro. Quando s’arrivò in cima c’era la porta di questo granaio dov’erano questi uomini, di questa porta noi si teneva chiusa a chiave e la chiave la tenevamo giù, di modo che casomai c’avessero imposto d’andare a aprir – a prender la chiave per aprire, intanto questi avrebbero sentito e sarebbero scappati e così di fianco c’era un’altra porticina dove c’era la camera di una famiglia di sfollati, sicché quella sera lì chissà per quale ragione gli uomini c’erano nel granaio, però la porta era stata chiusa ma non a chiave, non so perché, una distrazione, una sbadatezza, se non che questi tedeschi mi fecero ‘Qui che è?’ nella camera di questa gente, sicché io dissi ‘C’è una famiglia’, aprii la stanza e dissi ‘Guardi’, volevan sapere – loro guardarono con la lampadina e poi mi fecero ‘E qui?’, però ero tranquilla perché ero convinta che le chiavi fosse giù, sicché feci – dico ‘Niente, granaio, però’ dico ‘non c’è la chiave, vado a prenderla’ gli dissi, sai proprio così spontaneamente, ‘No’ e si scese –
CR: Tante volte il caso –
GMP: E si scese le scale, quando poi – poi se ne andarono – quando se ne furono andati che si seppe – quest’omini scesero e dissero ‘Lo sapevi che la chiave – ’ ci si sentiva morire [enfasi], ma la chiave – non si sapeva che era aperta, ‘Bastava spingere un poinino’ dice ‘che avrebbero preso tutti lì’ –
PM: Quant’erano?
GMP: Eran diversi uomini giovani, sì, sicché per di – e queste cose dopo ti lasciavano sai con quel senso di – non lo so – io quel che dico ‘come si faceva a non morire dalla paura? com’ho fatto a non morire dalla paura?’ per esempio quella volta che sono andata – andavo alla messa alla villa del seminario, che da Torbecchia [incomprensibile] al Serravalle, a Felceti era la villa del seminario, era – sarà stato un chilometro, tra campi e bosco insomma, così, e una mattina ero andata, mentre c’era la messa si comincia a sentire il mitragliamento, perché passavano gli aerei ricognitori, magari mitragliavano le colonne su per la Collina, sicché finì la messa e mi ricordo c’era il vescovo sfollato lì a Felceti e mi disse ‘Aspetta un poino’ dice ‘perché sento quest’aereo mitraglia da diverse parti, aspetta un po’ ad andare via’ e aspettai un po’, poi sembrava che tutto fosse finito, dissi ‘Vabbè, io vo a casa’. Ero sola, voglio dire, non lo so se oggi sola lo farei, non lo so neanch’io, so che venni via e quando arrivai a circa metà strada, cioè in pratica era la stessa distanza fra tornare alla villa di Felceti o venire a casa dov’ero sfollata – ricominciò questo mitragliamento, ma guarda sembrava mi fischiassero intorno all’orecchi, io mi ricordo appiattita lì contro un albero, sola come un cane, so che dicevo ‘Ma se passasse almeno qualcuno, vedere un’anima’, so che arrivai a casa e ero talmente impaurita che a pensarci ora dico ‘E poi?’ e poi niente, ho continuato a fa’ la mi vita come sempre, come se niente fosse stato e poi un lo so se a un certo punto s’ha l’abitudine – a certe situazioni probabilmente si fa l’abitudine, a un certo modo di vivere, non lo so, ci s’adatta [incomprensibile].
CR: Comunque con quei bombardamenti cambiò anche il modo di vedere la guerra, quella era una cosa lontana o no?
GMP: Era una cosa lontana, è chiaro, dopo – dai bombardamenti, in pratica, l’arrivo del fronte è qui? Non passò tanto tempo, per cui diventò una cosa reale, una cosa – una cosa che si toccava con le mani insomma –
CR: Cioè dalla dichiarazione di guerra ai primi bombardamenti la cosa cambiò insomma.
GMP: Sì, cambiò, dalla dichiarazione di guerra del ‘40 fino all’8 di settembre –
CR: [incomprensibile]
GMP: Ma in pratica no, Claudio, forse non si – non si percepiva proprio bene che era la guerra, perché tutto sommato tra la propaganda che c’avevan fatto, guerra lampo –
CR: Quindi furono i bombardamenti via –
GMP: Furono i bombardamenti, fu l’8 di settembre che – che portò lo scombussolamento, questi militari in fuga, insomma, e poi i bombardamenti, poi cominciarono al fronte l’azioni partigiane, queste cose qui e ci si incominciò a rende conto che era una cosa insomma – che c’era da girare insomma –
CR: Però la voglia che finisse – c’era questa voglia –
GMP: La voglia – cioè questo periodo –
CR: Che finisse, sì, la guerra –
GMP: Che finisse la guerra, che finisse –
CR: Questo periodo –
GMP: Che venisse mandato in su i tedeschi e con loro tutto il che c’era al seguito insomma ecco, questo c’era veramente, tant’è vero che rispetto alle [?] prime truppe d’occupazione via via dove sono arrivate sono state accolte – io mi ricordo che i primi tedeschi – i primi inglesi che arrivò in Sardegna – la prima truppa d’occupazione in Torbecchia arrivò gli inglesi, mi ricordo dov’ero io era su un poggetto così, poi si scendeva e c’era un’altra casa laggiù che si vide ‘Eppure son le truppe d’occupazione’, via tutti – tutto il paese, tutto Torbecchia penso che ci fosse lì, eran cinque o sei inglesi. Insomma, si faceva delle feste enormi perché, ecco, era proprio il senso della liberazione – della liberazione, davvero e poi si tornò a casa e si cominciò a sentire – come dire – a rivivere, a Porretta, Gaggio Montano, da quelle parti lì stavan peggio insomma ecco, però a quel punto lì era passato – a quel punto lì via via di dove passava i bombardamenti finivano, non c’era più rappresaglie, non c’era più niente e si cominciava a rivivere veramente.
PM: [incomprensibile] da una famiglia [incomprensibile] a un chilometro, neanche, cominciarono a arrivare i tedeschi, cominciarono da una finestra a gridare ‘Partigiani correte, correte partigiani, i tedeschi, correte’ [enfasi] e noi si prese i fucili, chi avea una rivoltella, chi aveva il forcone –
GMP: Questo è vero [?]
PM: E incominciarono da quella finestra ‘Partigiani correte, correte’ [enfasi].
CR: Perché erano in fuga –
GMP: Questo lo potrebbe dire il mi’ marito per esempio. I tedeschi si raccomandavano, ‘Non si appoggiavano [?] i partigiani’, la guerra di liberazione, i partigiani – io tant’è vero che tutti gli anni ho [incomprensibile] d’andare a una commemorazione partigiana su a Gaggio Montano il 5 settembre, perché è la commemorazione di una Brigata Giustizia e Libertà. Insomma, io, ecco, la sento, non so, per me il Presidente Pertini che non è partigiano non lo tocchi, perché sennò – no no, io l’ho sentita parecchio insomma, da ragazzina, in quel modo anche – come dire – più vivo [incomprensibile].
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Giuliana Menichini Pereira
Description
An account of the resource
L’intervistata è Giuliana Menichini Pereira, nata a Pistoia il 31 gennaio 1928. Interviene il padre Pietro Menichini, è presente il marito Miguel Pereira. L’intervista è effettuata da Claudio Rosati a Pistoia, presso l’abitazione dell’informatrice, il 6 ottobre 1983. Durante il primo bombardamento Giuliana Menichini Pereira si trovava in Via Monte Sabotino, vide la città illuminata dai bengala e fuggì in campagna con la famiglia. Questo e l’ultimo bombardamento le sono rimasti particolarmente impressi: l’ultimo soprattutto a causa delle ripetute ondate. Ricorda la morte dei cinque fratelli Zanzotto. Sfollò con la famiglia vicino Torbecchia. Pietro Menichini menziona le macerie delle Officine San Giorgio e racconta che un giorno, nei pressi del luogo in cui erano sfollati, sopraggiunsero i tedeschi: i partigiani furono avvertiti con delle grida e lui e alcuni vicini si prepararono armandosi di fucili, pistole e forconi. Giuliana Menichini Pereira festeggiò, insieme al resto del paese, l’arrivo dei primi soldati inglesi. <br /><br />
<p>The interviewee is Giuliana Menichini Pereira, born in Pistoia on 31 January 1928. Her father Pietro Menichini edges in, her husband Miguel Pereira is in the room. The interview was conducted by Claudio Rosati in Pistoia on 6 October 1983, in his house. During the first bombing, Giuliana Menichini Pereira was in Via Monte Sabotino – she saw the city lit up by flares and ran to the countryside with her family. This and the last bombing made a lasting impression on her; the last also because of the many aircraft waves. She remembers the death of the five Zanzotto brothers. Giuliana was evacuated near Torbecchia. Her father, Pietro Menichini, remembers the Officine San Giorgio in ruins and tells about the arrival of Germans near the place where they were evacuated. The partisans were alerted with shouts, he and some neighbours got ready to fight with rifles, guns and pitchforks. Giuliana Menichini Pereira, together with the village inhabitants, cheered the first British soldiers</p>
Date
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1983-10-06
Identifier
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MB CR 5
Creator
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Claudio Rosati
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Pistoia
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:27:11 audio recording
Coverage
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Civilian
Language
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ita
Contributor
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Ilaria Cordovani
Temporal Coverage
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1943-10-24
1944-01-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
evacuation
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/427/3601/PPirovanoG1701.1.jpg
f08cd474f8b3abb5a6bba59fc5a0eb22
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/427/3601/APirovanoG171113.2.mp3
44fd6d3723b29056871c2fb2c80da476
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Pirovano, Giuseppe
G Pirovano
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Giovanni Delfino who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2017-11-13
Identifier
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Pirovano, G
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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ZG: Prova? Funziona? Sì. Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, l’intervistato è Giuseppe Pirovano. Nella stanza è presente, in qualità dell’assistente di Zeno, Simone Biffi dell’Associazione Lapsus. L’intervista ha luogo in Via Gian Rinaldo Carli al numero 34 a Milano il giorno 12 Novembre 2017. Ok, possiamo iniziare. Allora inizio con delle domande di riscaldamento. Qual è il ricordo più lontano che ha, più remoto di tutti?
GP: Diciamo, ma qualche ricordo già prima della guerra. Quindi io sono del ’31 per cui ho dei ricordi verso gli anni ’39-’40. Quegli anni lì ricordo benissimo. L’aspetto che mi è rimasto in testa è la situazione qui di Affori ma sicuramente rispecchia la situazione generale dove il Fascismo teneva in iscacco se possiamo dire, la popolazione. Esempio. Allora c’eran solo le osterie e mio padre andava all’osteria qualche volta, non sempre. Era anche lui uno che gli piaceva bere il solito bicchiere di vino coi compagni, con gli amici, e ogni tanto mi portava, anzi ero io che gli correvo dietro, avevo otto, nove anni quindi, dieci anni. E mi ricordo la situazione, mi è rimasto impresso alcune cose. Per esempio, mi ricordo che sulle pareti dell’osteria dove c’era il, dove si batteva, dove batteva la spalla della sedia c’eran tutte le parole d’ordine: ‘Qui non si parla di politica’, ‘Viva il Duce’ e tutte queste parole d’ordine che potete immaginare quali erano. Ma questo è il meno. Ricordo benissimo che c’erano due, due esseri, due signori che giravano il rione vestiti proprio con la tuta da fascista, camicia nera, pantaloni, in bicicletta, sempre loro due, uno si chiamava Marinverni, l’altro Cavallini, e con la pistola sempre addosso. Facevano il giro delle osterie e ogni, alzavano la voce, la gente stava in silenzio, loro facevano il cosidetto bauscia, disevano a Milan, e quindi in alcuni casi hanno provato anche a sparare in alto, tanto per intimorire la gente. Questi erano proprio i manovali, me li ricordo bene, mi sono rimasti in mente anche i nomi. Poi naturalmente c’erano quelli vestiti bene, quelli che erano alla sede del Fascio qui ad Affori e che loro si facevano solo vedere nei luoghi delle parate quando c’era qualche manifestazione nel rione. Ecco questo, sono i ricordi più lontani, di prima della guerra.
ZG: Ma lei si ricorda perché questa camicie nere intimorivano? Quali erano le motivazioni? C’erano delle cause scatenanti?
GP: Non saprei dire la motivazione. Sicuramente evitavano, volevano evitare, diciamo, che qualcuno si comportasse da antifascista, questo per loro era una cosa che non poteva esistere, per cui controllavano, vedevano se c’era qualcuno di questo tipo. Naturalmente c’erano, ma però non posso dire che alloro lo sapevo, li avevo conosciuti nel, nel dopoguerra chiaramente, negli anni ’45-’46, c’erano gli antifascisti e c’erano ma non si muovevano, non si. Qualcuno di questi venivano anche portati in prigione quando c’era le visite dei gerarchi fascisti, di Mussolini in particolare qualche volta che era arrivato a Milano, però loro non li conoscevo, ma penso che lo scopo principale era quello di tenere sotto controllo la situazione insomma.
ZG: Senta, che lavoro facevano i suoi genitori?
GP: Mio padre era un operaio, lavorava alla Ceretti e Tanfani, una ditta molto importante. Era una ditta ausiliaria si diceva allora, cioè ausiliaria nel senso che producevano cose che servivano per la guerra e quindi. Non le armi ma le strutture sono le gru, gli impianti funiviari, gli impianti che potevano servire per l’esercito, quindi lavorava in uno di quei. Mia madre era casalinga. Eravamo tre fratelli, due fratelli e una sorella.
ZG: Si ricorda un po’ della vita prima della guerra, in famiglia, a casa?
GP: Mah, prima della guerra ricordo che mio padre lavorava dieci ore al giorno e comunque, riusciva comunque a mantenere la famiglia ecco. Mia madre non ha mai lavorato da sposata e non saprei dire precisamente perché. L’età era poca e quindi eravamo, non eravamo in grado di capire per bene le cose. Però posso dire che riuscivamo a vivere, naturalmente con sacrifici perché il mangiare era quello che era, non è che eravamo. E ricordo in particolare che i giorni di Natale, mentre alcuni bambini avevano la fortuna di avere una famiglia un po’ benestante, meglio di noi, noi non avevamo niente insomma, c’erano i soliti pacchetto di mandarino con la noce con quelle poche cose di frutta. Ecco, quello che ricordo è un po’ questo. Facevamo fatica, vivevamo con fatica, ma vivevamo.
ZG: Lei e i suoi fratelli giocavate?
GP: Sì, sì, giocavamo, giocavamo. Mi ricordo che io ero il maggiore facevo, costruivo i monopattini, andavo da, c’era uno stracciaio vicino a casa dove abitavamo, noi abitavamo qui in, qui vicino insomma, un centinaio di metri. E andavo a comperare, ce li regalava praticamente, soldi noi non ne avevamo, le ruote a sfere che raccogliendo i rottami che questo signore c’era dentro anche queste cose qui, noi lo sapevamo e andavamo là e facevo il carrello, il carrellotto con il legno, la, col manubrio, bulloni per fare da perno, la ruota a sfera più grossa che riuscivamo a trovare e facevamo il carrellotto che ci spingevamo in giro oppure il monopattino, con due ruote a scorta. Per dire uno dei giochi, poi giochevamo tante altre cose siam bambini, giocavamo, giocavamo, questo.
ZG: Ehm, lei si ricorda qualche altro gioco in particolare?
GP: Giocavamo, ci allora, ci mettevamo carponi uno dietro l’altro e saltavamo sulla schiena. Chi saltava più, due persone, tre persone. Giocavamo alla, noi lo chiamavamo il Pirlo, pezzo di legno così che mettevamo per terra, picchiavamo sulla punta e il legno andava lontano, quindi chi andava più lontano vinceva. E così insomma questi più o meno erano i giochi che facevamo.
ZG: Senta, si ricorda di quando è scoppiata la guerra?
GP: Sì. Scoppiata la guerra, mi ricordo vagamente del discorso di Mussolini, stranamente. Però stranamente era, tutte le radio parlavano di questo. E mi ricordo vagamente, vagamente col senno di poi, l’ho sentito attraverso i tele, i giornali eccetera ma allora ricordo vagamente per dire la verità. Non è che potessi capire il significato, perché insomma io avevo, nel ’40, 10 giugno del ’40 avevo nove anni, capite che un ragazzo non, però ricordo ma poi. Diciamo quello che posso dire è come ho vissuto io la guerra, ecco questo.
ZG: Ecco sì, voglio fare giusto una domanda prima che era, gli adulti gli parlarono della guerra? I suoi genitori o famigliari a lei vicini, amici dei genitori?
GP: Beh, mio padre un po’, mio padre, mio padre parlava un po’ qualche volta però non si sbottonava. Mio padre non era un politico ma era un antifascista, questo sicuramente, questo, lo posso testimoniare. Politico no perché poi anche lui era un operaio nel senso che non aveva, scuole, sì, fatto le elementari ma non aveva cultura politica. Ma era un antifascista e ogni tanto qualche cosa me lo [sic] diceva. Era un tipo che ogni tanto mi ricordo che prendeva in giro qualche fascista della prima ora, con dell’ironia non con della, diciamo discussioni politiche, si guardava bene perché non avrebbe potuto. Però mi ricordo che c’era uno che aveva fatto la Marcia su Roma, abitava vicino a noi e mai poi era un uomo anziano, non è che fosse, non era un uomo cattivo ma era un fascista. Mi ricordo, eravamo forse nel ’41 quando, quando venivamo, eravamo in Africa ed eravamo sconfitti e allora mi ricordo precisamente, una volta visto fuori in strada e gli diceva: ‘Ohè, Scaiett’, si chiamava Scaietti, ‘Scaiett, andem ben, eh!’. Faceva così, il segno della vanga. Vangava per dire che andavamo indietro. Lo prendeva in giro, per dire. Era comunque un tipo abbastanza, le conosceva le cose, e qualche volta si azzardava anche con gli amici a parlare, ma molto, molto poco, non è che era un antifascista combattente, no, non lo era. E naturalmente poi ho saputo che in fabbrica c’era l’organizzazione clandestina ma questo l’ho saputo dopo e quindi.
ZG: Dopo torneremo anche su questo. Quindi lei non si ricorda nulla in particolare proprio di come suo padre invece parlava a lei della guerra e del fascismo?
GP: No, ma, no, soltanto qualche volta, quello che succedeva, lo diceva in casa ecco. Ma no, devo dire di no. Per dire la verità.
ZG: Eh per caso avevate parenti al fronte?
GP: Al fronte c’erano i miei cugini, i miei cugini sì. Figli della sorella di mio padre e sono, due son tornati tutti e due, sì e altri cugini, altri cugini non me ne ricordo, che erano al fronte.
ZG: Ok. Senta invece, si ricorda dei bombardamenti?
GP: Eh beh certo. Eh lì vorrei parlare un po’. Allora partiamo dal primo bombardamento avvenuto a Milano il 24 Ottobre del ’42, primo bombardamento a Milano. Premetto che a Milano era già stato fatto un bombardamento nel ’40 appena scoppiata la guerra, me lo ricordo bene perché mio padre con la bicicletta, noi abitavamo ad Affori, abitiamo tutt’ora ad Affori, siamo andati a vedere i bombardamenti, per dire incoscienti e incapaci di giudicare, penso che era normale. Allora con la bicicletta, io con la mia bicicletta, mio fratello con la sua biciclettina siamo andati in Via Thaon di Revel, sapete dov’è? Piazzale Maciachini, avanti, lì c’è la Chiesa della Fontana. Il bombardamento è avvenuto con qualche bomba incendiaria che ha toccato la chiesa e la casa di fronte. Siamo andati subito quando l’abbiamo saputo, mio padre c’ha portato, e abbiamo visto di cosa si trattava. Proprio due spezzoni erano apparecchi, erano i francesi, perché noi abbiamo dichiarato guerra ai francesi e quindi quelli si sono vendicati subito ma ridicolmente insomma. Era un bombardamento ridicolo eh. Incendiarie hanno rotto una soffitta, un pezzo di, vabbè, comunque, questo è [unclear], però non è più stato fatto nessun bombardamento. Il primo a Milano è avvenuto il 24 Ottobre ’42. Io ero in quel momento nel cortile di casa mia, in una stanzetta del cortile con cinque, sei amici ragazzi, sentiamo sto casino, sto bombard, sto rumore, sparare e il rumore degli aerei. Usciamo e siamo rimasti lì, era le cinque della sera, quindi iniziava il tramonto. Si vedevano tutti i traccianti della antiaerea, qui nella, c’era l’antiaerea piazzata, là nella Cava Lucchini, vicino proprio a noi, le mitragliatrici e si vedevano gli apparecchi che passavano, che urlavano, erano gli aerei, apparecchi inglesi naturalmente perché i primi bombardamenti sono stati fatti dagli inglesi ’42-’43. Gli americani non c’erano ancora e quindi, vedevamo chiaramente mollare le bombe, magari appena dopo perché appena dopo magari alla Bovisa sugli scali ferroviari eccetera nei dintorni. Noi ad Affori non siamo stati colpiti. E quindi questo è stato il primo bombardamento che ho visto coi miei occhi gli apparecchi che mollavano le bombe. Ricordo il rumore degli apparecchi che poi dopo li ho risentiti in qualche documentario ma li ricordo bene. Allora il giorno seguente, uno o due giorni, mio padre ha caricato la famiglia, ci ha portati fuori Milano, sfollati diciamo, eravamo i primi sfollati, perché poi Milano ha avuto molti sfollati proprio a causa dei bombardamenti. Allora il discorso è questo, noi con la famiglia eravamo sfollati in provincia di Brescia, in campagna, e lui lavorava tutti i giorni da solo a casa, ecco. Veniva tutte le domeniche, quasi tutti i sabati e la domenica a trovarci, prendeva il treno, veniva a trovarci. Però era il ’42, la guerra è finita nel ’45, e io saltuariamente venivo a casa con lui, ’43, ’44 quindi in permanenza non ero a Milano però venivo a casa con lui ogni tanto. E quando ero a casa non sono riuscito a dormire una notte perché c’eran sempre i bombardamenti, c’eran sempre gli allarmi. Su casa nostra non abbiamo avuto i bombardamenti ma le case circostanti, i rioni, Milano insomma è stata distrutta, lo sapete meglio di me. Quindi io ho vissuto nei rifugi qualche, alla notte ed era un dramma veramente: il terrore, la paura. Chi andava nei rifugi era, in genere le donne, ma tutti insomma, mio padre nei rifugi non c’è mai andato perché lui diceva: ‘Mi la fin del rat la fu no!’, la fine del topo non la voglio fare. E allora, quando io ero qui qualche volta mi è capitato di andare nei rifugi perché se era di giorno, o comunque un orario che mio padre era a lavorare e io ero solo, e quindi andavo nei rifugi non potevo, ma quando c’era mio padre lui mi prendeva come al primo allarme mi metteva sulla canna della bicicletta e correvamo fuori perché qui ad Affori adesso è costruito molto ma allora era campagna perché era l’ultimo rione della città e quindi avevamo molta campagna e mi portava nei fossi, nella campagna per evitare i bombardamenti. Ma diciamo che ho vissuto i bombardamenti nei rifugi quando venivano qui. E mio padre, dicevo, veniva ogni tanto, ogni tanto, ogni settimana, al massimo ogni quindici giorni veniva a trovarci. Il giorno del 10 settembre ’44 era un giorno che tornava a Milano della visita che aveva fatto a noi e quando tornava a Milano il treno arrivava generalmente dopo le dieci di sera, c’era il coprifuoco alle dieci di sera, quindi cosa succedeva? Lui dormiva alla stazione centrale, al mattino alle sei prendeva la bicicletta e andava a Bovisa a lavorare, Bovisa è qui vicino. La sera del 10 settembre il treno è, è arrivato in orario, ha fatto in tempo a prendere la bicicletta e andare a casa. È andato a casa, diciamo è salito in casa per disfare la valigia, le bombe cadevano. Nel cortile distrutta la casa. Cosa succedeva? Le bombe cadevano e quindi lui è sceso perché non poteva stare lì perché andavano giù, sentiva le case che andavano giù e anche la nostra dove abitavamo cominciava a crollare. Allora molta gente nel, che scendeva nel cortile perché era un gruppo di case, allora molta gente andava nel rifugio ma il rifugio era la solita cantina che costruivano dove si metteva il vino, si metteva, quindi non era un rifugio, era una cantina. E quindi mio padre faceva la parte delle persone che scappavano, oltretutto non era in grado di contenere tutte le persone, molta gente scappava. Mio padre è scappato con un gruppo di dieci persone. Fatto venti metri, è arrivato a un bivio, scappavano, cercavano di andare in un rifugio più sicuro, loro pensavano. Ha fatto venti metri, erano un gruppo di dodici persone, tredici persone, una bomba è caduta nel centro. Quindi strage completa. Mio padre è rimasto sotto i bombardamenti in quell’occasione lì. E, scusate,
ZG: Se vuole interrompiamo.
GP: [starts crying] cosa succede, c’erano i miei amici, un ragazzo col collo tagliato, mio padre combinazione non aveva niente ma lo spostamento d’aria gli ha spaccato il cuore. E però una parte di persone si è fermato nell’androne, nell’androne della casa si sono salvati, in cantina si sono salvati e quelli che sono usciti sono morti tutti. Tenete conto che la mia casa, la casa dove abitavo, era ai, dietro la chiesa, in linea d’aria trenta, quaranta metri, perché proprio era sull’angolo del giardino del parroco. A sinistra c’era la scuola elementare dove io ho frequentato la prima, la seconda e la terza. Alla mia destra, quella via, c’era l’asilo infantile con cinque suore. Ebbene, hanno distrutto l’asilo, distrutto la scuola, distrutta metà la casa dove abitavo. Hanno danneggiato la chiesa, per dire quel gruppo di queste case. Poi più avanti hanno distrutto dei caseggiati completi, la Cur di Restei, la chiamavamo e tante altre cose lì in giro ma poi anche tanti altri. Quindi questo è il 10 settembre ’44. Mio padre è morto e noi siamo rimasti là in campagna dove mia madre è stata assunta, in combinazione c’era una ditta di tabacchi, raccoglievano il tabacco, lavoravano il tabacco, mia madre è stata assunta lì e siamo riusciti per tirare avanti con lo stipendio di mia madre. Quindi siamo stati lì fin dopo, fino il ’45 e mi ricordo l’ultimo episodio che voglio dire. Il 25 aprile del ’45, ero ancora lì naturalmente, e io seguivo un po’ gli ultimi avvenimenti, ormai avevo quattordici anni capivo un po’ di più insomma. E son corso sul, sono andato sulla strada principale Asola-Brescia perché in quei momenti lì i tedeschi cominciavano a scappare. Ora sono corso là con i miei amici grandi, giovanotti che ricordo si preparavano già qualche giorno prima, armeggiare, trovavano qualche arma, qualche cosa del genere. Sono andato lì per trovarli, insomma io volevo esserci. Sono arrivato là, non ho trovato nessuno in quel momento lì al mattino presto. Però mi sono trovato di fronte un gruppo di tedeschi, quindici, circa quindici tedeschi, potevano essere quattordici o sedici, ma era più o meno un gruppo così, un gruppo di tedeschi in bicicletta armati di tutto punto, bombe a mano e mitra, in bicicletta con sacche pesanti. E ormai ero lì, non sapevo più cosa fare e ho detto: ‘Ma sono un ragazzo, forse non mi dicono niente’. Invece il capo lì: ‘Komma her, komma her’, mi ha messo in mezzo per attraversare il paese. L’intenzione era quella naturalmente di avere l’ostaggio in centro in modo che, avevano paura dei partigiani per cui se c’era qualcuno e attraversiam, per attarversare il paese. Naturalmente io il paese lo conoscevo come le mie tasche, e poi avevo quattordici anni quindi, e intanto che andavamo non so se per incoscienza o non sentivo paura, non è che avessi paura, stavo pensando come facevo a scappare. E infatti prima di uscire dal paese conoscevo bene come fare avevo visto, avevo pensato e quindi con un salto sono uscito dai ranghi. Immaginatevi questa gente qui, stanca, affamata, carica come era, non mi ha neanche visto insomma. Sono scappato e quelli se ne sono andati. Sono stati fermati dai partigiani in paese dopo. Io sono tornato là e ho trovato finalmente i ragazzi che si sono messi là, mi hanno messo assieme a uno con la mitragliatrice, io dovevo metterci su le cartuccie, le scatole e comunque eravamo lì a fermare i tedeschi. Diciamo che la giornata è passata così. Lì fermavano i tedeschi, li mettevano nella scuola poi dopo sarebbero stati mandati non lo so e, eh glielo ripeto ero là. E se venivano le macchine era più pericoloso dicevano se veniva qualche macchina. Allora c’era un incrocio rispetto alla provinciale, veniva una macchina dalla provincia di, era da Castel Goffredo provincia di Mantova, e io ero su quella strada lì dietro l’angolo con questo qui. Sento la macchina, sentiamo la macchina, guardo e tra le fronde della siepe avanti centocinquanta metri vedo un elmetto che non è tedesco quello non è un tedesco, non sono tedeschi allora metto la mano sulla mitragliatrice prima che quello mi, [unclear] tedesco, e arriva la camionetta degli americani. Era il primo americano che vedevo e così abbiamo visto sta camionetta, è arrivato lì, ha fatto quattro chiacchiere, sai quei classici, quattro persone, due di dietro sdraiati con le, che poi s’è visto nei giornali che c’hanno fatto vedere ma li era, mi ricordo classico, quattro parole che noi non capivamo niente e con la cicca americana e se ne sono andati subito. Ecco, questa è la mia giornata del 25 aprile ‘45. E poi naturalmente c’è tutta una storia del dopoguerra molto importante ma che non c’entra con.
ZG: Senta, io le volevo fare qualche domanda per tornare un attimo su qualche passaggio. La prima era, nel ’42 lei ha detto che c’è stato il bombardamento, quello degli inglesi.
GP: Sì.
ZG: Il primo che ha assistito. Ha detto che aveva sentito le bombe ma non ha parlato della sirena antiaerea. In quell’occasione lì, era suonato o non era suonato?
GP: No, assolutamente no. Le ripeto, noi siamo usciti perché abbiamo sentito rumore ma il, l’allarme aereo non era suonato. Nel modo più assoluto. Poi, voglio dire, l’allarme aereo raramente suonava. Non c’era, non c’era organizzazione. Gli unici un po’ organizzati erano la cosidetta UNPA, erano dei civili incaricati in ogni caseggiato per essere, diciamo era come un, come si dice, quelli che abbiamo adesso, la protezione civile ecco, faceva un po’ di queste cose qui. Allora c’era quello del caseggiato più anziano, più bravo, faceva questo lavoro qui. Tutta roba diciamo, organizzata e no, insomma. Allora se c’era qualcuno di buona volontà, se sentiva l’aereo, suonava, perché c’era la tromba, la sirena che faceva a mano, faceva andare a mano. Ma raramente suonava prima dei bombardamenti. Sì, il primo bombardamento assolutamente non suonava. Poi in seguito, mi dicevano i miei amici, perché ci sono quelli che erano qui tutti i giorni, qualche volta suonava ma di rado. In genere arrivavano gli apparecchi e bombardavano. Mio padre, quella volta lì lo stesso, arrivato gli apparecchi, bombardavano e son scappati, ma. Allarme niente, non c’era organizzazione!
ZG: Il rifugio in cui lei scappava di solito, era la cantina di casa sua?
GP: Sì, sono andato anche in altri rifugi. Per esempio, c’era un rifugio fatto, sempre qui, in un posto dove c’era un prato fra le case, era un rifugio che avevano fatto, scavato due metri, se dico due metri potevano essere due e cinquanta, forse anche tre, non lo so, no si passava appena appena, due metri, coperto da tavole, dico tavole. Sopra le tavole la terra che avevano scavato l’han messa su sopra, quindi rifugio per modo di dire. Andava bene se c’era qualche scheggia in giro perché bombardavano ma era una cosa inutile, assolutamente, non era rifugio. E per il resto erano cantine. Non c’erano rifugi, in zona parlo eh, perché poi in altri posti avevano fatto anche dei rifugi. Ma a Affori assolutamente non ce n’erano.
ZG: Come passava il tempo nel rifugio, se lo ricorda?
GP: Seduti, c’erano le donnine che pregavano, c’erano i bambini che piangevano, e io mi ricordo che, ero pieno di paura e quando ero in rifugio, ero solo naturalmente, mio padre non c’era. Ero, tremavo e pieno di paura, poi sa in quell’ambiente lì, donne che gridano, che urlano, i bambini che urlano, e così, è una tragedia insomma. Non era una cosa molto bella.
ZG: Senta, oltre alle preghiere, ogni tanto magari avevate altri metodi per passare il tempo, tipo qualcuno cantava magari o?
GP: No, no, no, io non ricordo. Beh la preghiera dico perché qualcuna che c’era, che faceva la preghiera, non è che, che fosse collettivo il fatto. Qualcuna si metteva a pregare, le donne anziane, me lo ricordo ma, no, anche perché nel rifugio non è che ci stavamo tanto. Cioè i bombardamenti potevano durare mezz’ora, l’allarme diciamo poteva durare mezz’ora, al massimo un’ora ma generalmente finiva molto prima insomma ecco. Che gli apparecchi non potevano star su le ore, bombardavano e se ne andavano. Magari si ripeteva ma non molto a lungo. Nei rifugi stavamo poco tempo, mezz’ora.
ZG: E senta invece dov’è che è sfollato, quando suo padre l’ha portato via?
GP: Sul confine fra Brescia e Mantova, in campagna, se posso [unclear] anche il paese Acquafredda si chiama, Acquafredda, c’è ancora eh!
ZG: E come mai vi ha portato là esattamente?
GP: Perché c’erano i genitori di mia madre, con un fratello di mia madre. E quindi abitavamo tutti assieme nella casa dove abitavano questi. Il, loro non erano contadini, mio nonno era una falegname e mio zio faceva l’operatore delle macchine, le trebbiatrici, le macchine che usavano per la terra, le aggiustava, le, insomma faceva quel lavoro lì.
ZG: E da quelle parti bombardamenti non ce ne sono mai stati?
GP: No, assolutamente, in campagna no, abbiamo vissuto bene.
ZG: Perché ogni tanto tornava a Milano con suo padre?
GP: Eh, perché ogni tanto, io, papà, vengo anche io a Milano oppure era lui ma non è che son tornato, forse due o tre volte a, tre volte a Milano. Però, ragazzi! Erano tragedie tutte le volte. Era una tragedia perché era sempre in giro. Mi son trovato in quel rifugio lì che le dicevo, mi son trovato scalzo. Quindi era, ’43 forse, o primavera ’44, insomma era terrore, scappavamo, eran momenti brutti insomma, non, una cosa che, da non augurarsi guardi.
ZG: Senta invece, un’altra cosa che volevo chiedere era, con la scuola, lei quando ha sfollato per la prima volta, stava già frequentando la scuola media?
GP: No, allora, io ho frequentato la scuola che hanno abbattuto lì quando hanno bombardato mio padre, è morto mio padre, ho fatto prima, seconda e terza, la quarta sono andato a farla nelle scuole nuove, sempre qui ad Affori. Allora la quarta, io sono stato bocciato, sono stato bocciato perché non ho risposto alle domande di religione. La mia maestra, maestra Giacchero, era una fascista di quelle terribili, clerico-fascista, e io non ho risposto a domande di religione perché avevo fatto, avevo tranciato i miei rapporti con la chiesa quando mi hanno fatto fare il chierichetto. Mi hanno fatto fare il chierichetto, parliamo forse nove, dieci anni, allora c’erano chierichetti così piccoli e mi ricordo che a un battesimo un signore ha tirato fuori i soldi, ha dato i soldi al prete, ha detto: ‘Questi qui sono i suoi, questi qui sono per il batte, e questi qui per i chierichetti’. Il prete ha messo in tasca i soldi e non ha dato niente, né a me né a nessun altro, ha tenuto tutti i soldi dei chierichetti. Da quel giorno lì, per me, sono andato a casa ho detto: ‘Mamma, io in chiesa non ci vado più’, ‘Perché?’ ‘Perché mi ha rubato i soldi’ mi ricordo. [unclear] ‘Ma no, ma’, basta, e io ho chiuso. Quindi per me la chiesa non esiste, non esiste da quel giorno là insomma. Poi tutto va bene, tutto [unclear], per me non è un problema, è un problema [unclear], ma. Quindi sono stato bocciato in quarta, ho rifatto la quarta qui e [mobile phone rings] scusatemi.
ZG: Interrompo, non si preoccupi.
PG: Sì?
ZG: Allora, dopo la pausa riprendiamo l’intervista.
PG: Ecco, ehm, quindi ho rifatto la quarta. Il mio maestro era un centurione, un ex-centurione della milizia. Allora e io ero il caposquadra per dire che sono stato bocciato non perché ero un asino, anche se non ero una gran scienza per dire ma io sapevo le mie cose.Sono bocciato proprio perché non ho risposto alle domande di religione e il mio maestro dopo qualche giorno mi ha fatto caposquadra. Era un centurione della milizia e lui voleva avere una squadra organizzatissima. Aveva fatto sette persone, sette ragazzi capisquadra, io ero caposquadra ma ne aveva fatte altri sei che ognuno aveva dato un compito ma soprattutto in palestra ci portava. Eravamo organizzati in un modo eccellente. Io avevo la mia squadra che comandavo a bacchetta: ‘Avanti marsch, destra, sinist, obliqua sinist’. Ero bravo, era il maestro che mi aveva insegnato. E quell’anno lì, doveva essere il ’41 o il ’42, ’41 sicuro o fine ’40, poi facciamo i conti e magari, sì ’42, ’41, ’42 sono andato via, e abbiamo fatto un raduno, hanno fatto un raduno all’arena di Milano di quattrocento classi elementari, la quarta e la quinta, per fare gli esercizi ginnici. Far vedere che erano i giovani, i Balilla che, come eran bravi i Balilla eccetera. E io ho portato la mia classe, siamo stati bravi, eravamo sicuramente fra i primi perché i nostri ci tenevano. Poi per c’han fatto uscire dall’arena. Uscendo dall’arena c’erano dei tavoloni, son stati cinque o sei tavoloni, non lo so perché eravamo in tanti. Ogni tavolone c’era un gerarca dietro lì, un fascistone e io ero il caposquadra, dovevo andare a rispondere, a rispondere alle domande che queste persone mi facevano. Sono arrivato là con la mia squadra: ’Avanti marsch, destra, sinistra, tac!’ ‘Senti’, mi dice, ‘chi ha dichiarato guerra? L’Italia all’Inghilterra o l’Inghilterra alla Germania?’. Sono rimasto un po’. Non lo sapevo, non lo sapevo anche se, che magari era stato detto però non quel momento, non lo sapevo. Però pensavo ragazzi la guerra è una cosa brutta, non siamo noi italiani che la vogliamo, nella mia mente, e ho detto, no è stata l’Inghilterra. ‘Bravo asino! Vai via con la tua classe!’. Questo per dire [laughs] come eravamo in quei tempi là. E poi naturalmente io ho passato la quarta, sono andato in quinta, nel ’42 già avevo perso un anno, nel ’42 a settembre, a ottobre siamo scappati. Perciò ho ripreso la quinta là in campagna, ho fatto la quinta là. Dopodiché là non c’erano più le scuole. Per fare la, per andare a scuola bisognava fare tredici chilometri fino a, un paese importante, paese grosso, ma allora come facevo? In casa c’era una sola bicicletta, a parte il fatto che fare tredici chilometri in bicicletta, col Pippo che ogni tanto sparava addirittura sui cavalli e carretti che c’erano sulla strada, hai mai sentito, avete sentito parlare del Pippo? Ma poi c’era una bicicletta, l’usava mio zio per andare a lavorare. Quindi io, finita la quarta, la quinta elementare, non ho più fatto la scuola. Anzi, devo dire che, allora per andare alle scuole medie bisognava fare, come si, gli esami di stato. E sono riuscito a fare gli esami di stato con la mia maestra - che voleva che li facessi - e con altre sei ragazze, la figlia del sindaco, del podestà, allora del podestà, la figlia del suo secondo era il caseario, aveva il caseificio, la figlia del fabbro e altre tre ragazze dei tre più grossi fittavoli del paese. Allora io ero quello che aveva, che mi vestivo con i pantaloni neri di tela stracciati con le pezze sul sedere e loro erano le figlie, erano le sei ragazze dei ricchi del paese. Allora sono riuscito ad andare, a fare gli esami di stato in quel paese e, non mi viene in mente va bene il paese, con cavallo e carrozza, cavallo e la carrozza con queste ragazze. Siamo, eravamo bene istruiti, siam passati tutti e però io non ho più potuto far scuola. Questo è quanto, questa è la mia scuola che ho fatto. Naturalmente poi ho avuto nel dopoguerra la fortuna di fare altro tipo di scuola e via ma così, scuola era questa, la mia scuola.
ZG: Senta, a proposito della maestra che diceva, quella qua a Milano. Allora innanzitutto prima un’altra domanda: la chiesa in cui lei faceva il chierichetto, è quella che poi è stata bombardata?
GP: Sì. La chiesa qui ad Affori è stata danneggiata, diciamo la parte posteriore sì.
ZG: E invece diceva che la sua maestra delle elementari qua a Milano era terribile. Mi sa spiegare il perché? Si ricorda qualche episodio?
GP: No, era semplicemente cattiva. Quando io le dico che era una fascista ed era fascio-clericale perché, metta assieme queste due cose, si può immaginare che cosa ne viene fuori. Io poi nel dopoguerra mi ricordo che, mi ricordo, c’era un amico che abitava qui anche lui che ha, con questa maestra che la conoscevo bene, aveva qualche anno più di me, e mi, ‘Eh, la Giacchero!’ ne abbiamo parlato ‘La Giacchero’, fa ‘volevamo andare a prenderla a casa, ma poi mi hanno sconsigliato, l’abbiamo lasciata perdere’. Per dire che era proprio una signora che si distingueva dalle altre per essere così cattiva e fascista insomma. Ecco questo. Non tutte erano così naturalmente ma quella, combinazione, l’ho avuta io. È andata così.
ZG: Invece, cambiando discorso, lei si ricorda dei tedeschi? A parte per quell’episodio del 25 aprile?
GP: Sì, sì, mi ricordo dei tedeschi. Mi ricordo dei tedeschi perché i tedeschi avevano occupato l’Alta Italia tutti i paesi, non soltanto dei presidi. Tutti i paesi piccoli e grandi erano presidiati. Noi avevamo lì, abitava vicino a dove abitavo io, nello stesso cortile avevamo un, era un sottoufficiale, era un sottoufficiale o ufficiale non di grande grado comunque abitava lì, quel tedesco lì. Poi c’erano altri, c’è un capitano, c’era dei piccoli presidi insomma in altre parti del paese ma io mi ricordo c’era questo capitano che aveva sequestrato un cavallo bello, che correva a cavallo nel viale del paese, per dire un ricordo perché questo. C’erano tedeschi c’erano anche lì. Dappertutto.
ZG: Che impressione le facevano?
GP: Boh, niente, diciamo che, mi ricordo che mio fratello è andato a rubargli la marmellata in un, c’era in questo caseggiato c’era un magazzino che mio nonno faceva il falegname. Quando sono arrivati i tedeschi han sequestrato tutto, mio nonno non ha fatto più il falegname e loro mettevano lì le vettovaglie e mio fratello con un altro ragazzo sono andati a rubargli le scatole di marmellata eccetera. Si vede che si sono accorti che c’erano, non lo so, e, e questo qui si è accorto e ci ha dato tante scudisciate che [laughs] insomma ecco. Però come persona non era corretta, non, con noi non ha mai detto niente, mai fatto niente. Ci tenevano a stare tranquilli, stavano bene lì quel paese.
ZG: Senta, tornando a quel episodio del 25 aprile, lei aveva già avuto contatti con dei partigiani?
GP: No. Chiariamo bene. I contatti che avevo io erano con gli imboscati, che era diverso. Nel senso che, in quel paese lì i partigiani non c’erano, non avevano niente a che vedere, erano nei paesi più grandi erano verso le colline, verso le montagne. Ma però c’erano gli imboscati voglio dire il. Nel ’43, l’8 settembre, l’esercito si sfasciava e ricordo che molti venivano nelle case, ricordo benissimo venivano anche là, si toglievano le divise e cercavano qualche giacca, qualche pantalone per far vedere che non erano militari, per sfuggire alla Decima MAS che già cominciava a sentirsi. E non i partigiani, solo gli imboscati, cioè coloro che avevano la possibilità di imboscarsi nelle soffitte, nelle campagne, eccetera, ecco. Però c’era qualcuno, c’era qualcuno che si preparava, che non era, era sì un imboscato, non è andato con i partigiani, non è andato con la Decima MAS, con la RSI italiana, i repubblichini, ma che però erano imboscati. Però qualcuno si preparava in quel 25 aprile e siccome io li conoscevo tutti, conoscevo morte, conoscevo morte, vite e miracoli del paese e quindi li conoscevo e sapevo che andavano a provare i mitra, mi ricordo che preparavano le armi per l’eventuale, ma questo gli ultimi giorni ecco, conoscevo questi imboscati diciamo. Partigiani veri e propri li ho conosciuti dopo ma non lì.
ZG: E quando queste persone qua si preparavano con le armi lei ha assistiteva?
GP: Sì, una volta mi ricordo che ero andato assieme e sparavano alle piante per vedere l’effetto che facevano insomma, per vedere le armi se andavano bene. C’avevano un mitra, c’avevano delle pistole, quel gruppo lì insomma che conoscevo io.
ZG: E poi il 25 aprile insomma andando là ha incontrato questo gruppo di partigiani.
GP: Questi gruppi di imboscati, c’erano uno, no, c’erano due forse partigiani che passavano, che davano un po’, che mi davano l’impressione che erano partigiani. Gli altri li conoscevo, erano gli imboscati che c’erano lì, si erano svegliati al momento opportuno. C’era forse una o due persone, una c’era sicuramente che si [unclear] era però il gruppo era quello lì.
ZG: Quindi furono questi imboscati che si erano appostati con la mitragliatrice all’incrocio.
GP: Sì, sì, sì.
ZG: Allora direi che con le domande sulla guerra ho finito. Le volevo chiedere a finita la guerra, lei si ricorda cosa è successo dopo? Siete tornati a Milano, insomma mi racconti un po’.
GP: Ho scritto un libro io.
ZG: Ah.
GP: Beh, molto interessante perché eravamo, diciamo qualcuno era fortunato che era riuscito a fare le scuole medie e andare avanti chi era rimasto a Milano ma la massa era come me, quinta elementare, senza lavoro però la cosa interessante è che il lavoro si trovava subito, c’era molto lavoro, c’era da ricostruire, e quindi sia mio fratello che io e che i miei amici abbiamo trovato da lavoro lì. Ma io vu fa l’elettricista, io vado a fare il meccanico, no, io faccio il panettiere, poi ci, assieme parlavamo e dicevamo: ‘Io vorrei fare questo, vorrei fare quello’. E c’era veramente la possibilità e ci siamo tutti impegnati a lavorare. Abbiamo lavorato da questo punto di vista. E qui io pensavo, speravo di andare a lavorare nella Ceretti e Tanfani, dove c’era mio padre. Il direttore del quale di questa ditta, aveva promesso a mia madre nel ’45 che mi avrebbe assunto appena poteva, ma al momento non poteva e non l’ha fatto. Faccio una parentesi. Questo direttore è stato messo al muro dai tedeschi con i compagni della ditta negli scioperi del ’44, negli scioperi del ’44 perché voi sapete nel ’43 e nel ’44 degli scioperi delle fabbriche di Milano, in particolare Sesto San Giovanni e la Bovisa, dove c’erano tante fabbriche e lì c’erano un gruppo, gli operai erano organizzati, fatto sciopero sono entrati i tedeschi e li hanno messi al muro e non hanno sparato, non gli hanno fatto niente, li hanno obbligato a riprendere il lavoro perché era una ditta ausiliaria, facevano dei lavori che interessavano ai tedeschi e quindi questo signore qui è rimasto direttore d’officina anche dopo la guerra e alla fine prima di essere, di andare via è riuscito ad assumermi, nel ’48 mi ha assunto. Questa persona. E io lì ho potuto capire, sentire tutti gli operai, capire cosa, come hanno vissuto, cosa hanno fatto nel periodo di guerra. E perché allora avevo, nel ’48 avevo diciassette anni ero, e avevo già gli speroni io, eran già due anni che lavoravo e quindi conoscevo già le difficoltà della vita. E quindi poi lì subito a vent’anni ero in commissione interna, facevo commissione interna, quindi conosco bene la vita della fabbrica, prima perché tutti gli amici mi conoscevano perché mio padre ogni tanto mi portava al dopolavoro e allora c’era il dopolavoro. Mi portava là che andavano a giocare alle bocce e poi a Natale c’erano i regali che allora era così durante il tempo del fascio. E tutti gli uomini anziani, gli operai mi conoscevano e quindi ho potuto entrare e conoscere bene le cose. Poi, c’è molto del dopoguerra ma.
ZG: Senta la scuola invece poi è riuscito ad andare avanti quindi?
GP: Sì, ho avuto la fortuna. Dunque intanto la scuola non potevo più nel senso che non avevo fatto le medie, non c’era ancora perché poi i sindacati sono riusciti a imporre la possibilità di fare le scuole medie a chi non le aveva fatte ma io avevo [sic] già troppo avanti. Allora quando sono entrato in Ceretti, la Ceretti aveva le scuole interne. Ho fatto matematica, meccanica e disegno, io poi ero appassionato del disegno, lo facevo prima di andare ancora lì. Ho fatto questi anni qui, questi due, e questo mi ha permesso di studiare perché poi ero uno che, mi piaceva, sapevo, ci capivo. Mi ricordo che il direttore gli diceva agli insegnanti che, gli insegnanti erano tutti gli ingegnieri della ditta, ma perché, perché non, deve andare a scuola questo qui, rimandatelo a scuola, come per dire, perché vedeva che capivo e insomma perchè non va non so, perché non va, ma io avevo la testa dall’altra parte, la testa dall’altra parte dal punto di vista sindacale-politico, per cui non ero, volevo fare quello e non andare a scuola, anche perché alla scuola non potevo andare. Quelle lì l’ho fatta perché mi interessava professionalmente. Vi dirò che ho fatto la vita politica, la vita sindacale fino a ventisei anni, poco eh, dieci anni, a ventisette, a ventisei anni mi sono sposato. Dopodiché ho capito una cosa, che non ero nelle condizioni di fare né il sindacalista né il politico perché la cultura era quella che era per cui, meno male, che ho voluto imparare la mia professione perché sarei stato un cattivo politico e un cattivo sindacalista, questo proprio convinto. Invece ho litigato all’interno della mia azienda per poter avere il mio posto di lavoro, perché allora ero martellato dall’azienda perché volevano disfarmi, disfarsi. Una serie di circostanze che forse è inutile, non interessa a nessuno però diciamo che mi hanno mandato fuori dall’azienda in un’altra azienda di proprietà della Redaelli di Rogoredo. Ho fatto un’esperienza notevole anche là. Dopodiché ho cominciato a lavorare all’esterno della ditta per l’azienda. Alla fine vi dirò che ho fatto il montatore, il capo montatore, il capocantiere, nel ’69 sono andato in ufficio come ispettore di montaggio. Io ho girato il mondo, per dire. America latina, America, Venezuela, andato in parecchi altri posti, son stato in Iran, son stato in Pakistan, son stato in quasi tutta l’Europa nel, e ho cominciato a ventisette anni, ho fatto il primo lavoro da capocantiere, avevo dieci montatori e nel ’59, ventotto anni, e ottanta operai in Sicilia. Ho fatto una teleferica di diciotto chilometri come capo montatore, avevo tutti i montatori della Ceretti, tutti esperti, tutta gente anziana, esperta e io ero, avevo fatto, avevo dieci anni di lavoro alle spalle, avevo fatto anche l’Iran sempre con i capi montatori, avevo fatto la mia esperienza, ma l’ispettore, il capo dell’ufficio montaggi, quando m’ha chiamato per andare in Sicilia per fare quel lavoro lì, ho detto: ’Va bene, vado, chi è che è il capo là?’, ‘No il capo lo fa lei’, ‘No, guardi, il capo lo fa lei’. ‘Sì perché lei’, m’ha detto, ‘io sono sicuro che con la sua savoir-faire volevo dire, il suo modo di fare, riesce a controllare la situazione perché vede, se mando Minisini, se mando Bersani, se mando, son tutti capi, uno che la vuol sapere più lunga degli altri e in effetti era tutta gente esperta. Però lei può metterse, metterli d’accordo, percé se mando uno di questi a fare il capo è una lite unica. Li conosco tutti, mi creda’. ‘Guardi, se lo dice lei’, e in effetti è andata così. Partendo da lì ho fatto presto a far carriera soprattutto perché avevo una cultura tecnica, nel senso che conoscevo il disegno, un po’ di matematica, la meccanica perché se ho fatto l’esperienza, e quindi è stato facile per me far carriera. Facile [laughs], non facile, ma ho potuto farla. E così sono riuscito a fare i miei quarant’anni e poi ho fatto sei anni di consulente dell’azienda. Ecco, questo è stato un po’ la mia carriera.
ZG: Ok, fantastico. Senta,
GP: Beh, forse questo pezzo non vi interesserà, ma insomma, tanto per.
ZG: No, no, no, teniamo tutto, non si preoccupi. Le faccio le ultime due domande. Lei all’epoca, all’epoca della guerra, cosa pensava di chi la bombardava, di chi bombardava?
GP: Le dirò: io sono stato molte volte, mi hanno chiamato nei rifugi a parlare dei bombardamenti e della guerra e i ragazzi diciamo della terza media, o la terza media in genere o la quinta, i ragazzi di diciotto anni, devo dire che è molto faticoso, molto faticoso perché non riescono a esprimersi, non parlano, non chiedono, fanno fatica, però qualche volta qualche domanda intelligente veniva fuori. Mi ricordo che uno ha chiesto: ‘Ma insomma, lei cosa ne pensa degli americani? In fondo hanno ammazzato suo padre, fatto bombardamenti, hanno ammazzato suo padre, quindi come la pensa da questo punto di vista?’. Cosa ho risposto? Dico: ’Sentite, è finita la guerra, ci siamo liberati, io ho avuto la sensazione che ci siamo liberati veramente da un giogo, ci siamo liberati dal fascismo, e io credo che sia stato inevitabile questo sacrificio che abbiamo fatto. Cosa posso fare? Cosa posso mettermi a odiare gli americani? Tutto sommato, gli americani sono anche morti per venirci a liberare. I soldati americani stavano bene in America ma sono venuti qui e ci hanno aiutato a liberarci. È vero, hanno fatto anche dei danni ma alla fine cosa possiamo dire? Cosa possiamo fare? Abbiamo di fronte un altro periodo e non con il giogo sulle spalle’.
ZG: Bene. Per me, se lei non ha altro da dire, finiamo qua. Grazie.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Giuseppe Pirovano
Description
An account of the resource
Giuseppe Pirovano remembers wartime memories as schoolboy at Affori, a Milan neighbourhood. Describes daily life in fascist youth organisations, with regimented schooling and political rallies. Mentions childrens plays and pastimes, such as assembling a kick scooter from scrap and recalls fascist militiamen intimidating and jailing dissenters. Recalls conscription dodgers and factory strikes. Gives an account of the 24 October 1942 bombing, which caused limited damage and describes the much more intense one of 10 September 1944. Gives a graphic account of its aftermath, mentioning the death of his father and widespread damage. Describes different shelter types stressing their inadequacy, mentions his experience as evacuee in the Brescia countryside while his father was employed by a manufacturing firm. Recalls Pippo strafing. Gives an account of his experience as trade union activist, describing his post-war career as mechanical engineer. Mentions his involvement in the memorialisation of the bombing war, reflects on the morality of bombing, and stresses how he feels grateful for the sacrifice of those who died.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Format
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01:04:38 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Milan
Italy--Brescia
Temporal Coverage
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1942-10-04
1944-09-10
1943-09-08
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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APirovanoG171113
PPirovanoG1701
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/553/8820/PMellorG1501.1.jpg
ec53d3c84b8db787d307d49e498fe698
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/553/8820/AMellorGH160822.1.mp3
7d3219223e8eb485a7c531b5af763278
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mellor, Gordon
Gordon Herbert Mellor
G H Mellor
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Mellor, G
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with Gordon Mellor (1919 -2018, 929433, 172802 Royal Air Force). He trained in Canada as an observer and served as a navigator with 103 Squadron. He was shot down over Holland in 1942 but evaded capture.
Date
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2015-10-06
2016-06-07
2016-08-17
2016-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GM: Let me see.
CB: Just let me just -
GM: Yes.
CB: Introduce it. So today is, we are reconvening with Gordon and the date is the 22nd of August, in the afternoon and we are just going to pick up from the point where Gordon had been, he had met the priest who was in the area where he’d been walking and he’d taken, the priest had taken him to his own house.
GM: That is correct.
CB: So, over to you Gordon.
GM: Right. Well. The walk to the house that has just been mentioned of course was taken rather late in the day after the curfew so we didn’t meet anybody during that sort of mile, mile and a half walk but on arrival then his housekeeper was still up and we were fast approaching midnight and having received an introduction and I’m not sure what the drink was, I think possibly it was either coffee or something like that, on the other hand coffee keeps you awake but it was then off to bed in the priest’s own home and when I woke up in the morning then he was out on his duties but I was given breakfast and was told that there was one or two things that needed to be dealt with and[that the priest would be back and we would deal with it then. So he did return in due course and he wanted a certain amount of information about what I was and where had I come from and he said that I would have a visitor in the afternoon to keep me entertained. I’m not quite sure what the entertainment was supposed to be other than just talk and that happened indeed. A very nice lady turned up and introduced herself. The priest was out. The housekeeper which we have met already she may well have been somewhere in the house but she wasn’t noticeable at all and I then proceeded to tell the young lady where I’d been and where I was hoping to go which seemed to be very suitable and she made a number of approaches, asking questions and assessing in her own mind whether I was on the level so to speak or was, what also, could also be called a plant. Somebody to find out the information under the guise of being a helper. But this lady was a compatriot and she was a helper so when she went she said, ‘You’ll be hearing from us very shortly,’ and very shortly it proved to be. The priest came back and he said, ‘Well you’re off tonight. Just hold on for a little while,’ and certainly there was a gentleman turned up. I hadn’t seen him before. He hadn’t seen me at any time and we had a word or two and then I was, I must have been given a coat to cover up my battledress outfit and with that done we went out of the house, said goodbye to the priest and walked off down the road to a bus stop. That short period of time passed and a busy bus filled with quite a large number of people pulled up and we got on and couldn’t get away from the entrance at the back of the bus so we stuck there and the bus pulled away with us in a little bit of a crush but it was, it was quite comfortable. Shortly after that we then stopped outside which I would have thought was barracks because there was a little group of some five or six German soldiers obviously catching the bus for an evening out on the town and they crushed in and we being the current residents we sort of backed off as much as we could and give them room to get on. So these five or six soldiers were standing there with us standing at the back and the exit to the bus in front of these soldiers. Well we pulled away for about two hundred, three hundred yards and stopped again and it apparently it was probably the other end of the military area and two officers were waiting there and they then proceeded to get in to the rear of the bus and with the rankers were, which was between us and the officers they pushed back and it became quite a crush there. Fortunately it didn’t last overlong and eventually all of the military people got out at, I presume, a place of entertainment or whatever it was, I couldn’t be sure but suddenly there was a lot of room to stand and carry on with the journey which we did and went into a town. I struggle to think of the name of the town but it was towards the city and it was certainly more, more modern than places we had just left but we pulled up in a place where there was a square of sorts, the bus stop being in the square, and got out. So there was just the helper, the chap who was in charge, so to speak, of me and I followed him out. The bus pulled away and I was given to understand that the previous trip that they’d had a lot more soldiers before them so obviously it was a regular route. And then we walked uphill and I hadn’t got a clue where we were actually going other than it was a rise and the normal city houses on either side and suddenly he stopped. The front wall of the house, the living area and what have you was at the back of the pavement. There was no front garden or access like big doors or anything like that but there was just a single door with one or two steps up to each level because the slope of the ground had increased a bit. Banged on the door and in a very short time it was opened and we were beckoned in. I was introduced to a lady who came and the guide made his farewells and left me standing with the two ladies and he went off and I don’t ever remember seeing him again. He was just one of the helpers on the short distance duties. So I then became the guest of the two ladies and they, yes one I think one of them was American married to a German er to a, sorry to a Belgian medical man and she had lived in that area for quite a number of years so they were well known as residents. I stayed there two or three days and in that time I was taken into a, a shop in a nearby town and they had a studio sort of arrangement there. They took your photograph and you then waited a couple of hours and they had done a print and also I’m not sure where the document came from but it turned out to be sort of an identity document. And whether the chap who I had arrived with had got, had it already or whether they carried a stock of them I don’t know but from that an identity card for me with the necessary stamps and what have you was all done and transaction, money passed hands of course and in actual fact they gave me the amount of money so that I paid for it and it didn’t seem to involve the other people at all but never mind. I put it in my pocket and we left and went back to the flat where I was staying. This was obviously a necessity, you had the document with you because after the evening meal and we listened to a bit of the BBC on the radio and we then went to bed and there was a, you would be up fairly early in the morning and so it proved. I was up early and prepared to travel and they had the meal, I couldn’t tell you what the meal contained any more now but it was very satisfying and there was a knock on the door and in marched a helper. I have a job in visualising. I think it was a man, I’m pretty sure it was and he picked, picked me up and he had brought a long coat, a longish coat, overcoat style thing to put for me to put on because I was still in battledress and off we went having said goodbye and thanks to my people who had looked after me there. From there, now let me have a think. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, my recollection tells me that we went to the railway station and, where we were met by another helper and we travelled into [pause] you’d better hang on for a moment.
[machine pause]
GM: Now let’s see if we can get on.
CB: So you were getting on the train. Where were you going? That was going to Brussels.
GM: Oh wait a minute. Just a moment. This is where it gets complex. Yeah. Ok we were heading for, heading for Brussels. The question is who was I travelling with? Was it this chap or was it a woman? I think it was a chap. Well, ok. Let’s, I’m sure other people are better at it than I am. [pause] I think I’m right.
CB: Ok.
GM: I think, yes I’ll have to condense this a bit.
CB: Ok. So we’re going to Brussels.
GM: Yeah. We’re on the train heading to Brussels and I had, as a companion, somebody I hadn’t met before so we got out short of the main centre in Brussels and we then waited a short while and picked up another local train. More local perhaps than the one we had got off and we travelled the last mile or two within the city and got out. There was no, nobody there that was interested in us. We were just two people travelling and so we, [pause] Yeah. Damn it. Damn it.
CB: ‘Cause presumably you changed trains so that if somebody had been watching you.
GM: Exactly.
CB: They would have expected you to arrive and you didn’t do it.
GM: No. It, [pause] I’m sorry about this.
CB: Don’t worry.
[machine pause]
GM: Local train. This obviously was a ploy which was set up and walking down the platform we were then met by other helpers. Two I think there were together and, no, sorry it was only one, it was only one because I was travelling on my own plus the helper. Yeah, that’s right. Yes. I was handed over from one helper to another and he took me away from the chap I’d been travelling with and we passed down onto a local, I suppose we’d call it generally the underground but there wasn’t a great deal of it underground. It was a city line, I think that would be better term and went a few stations and it was indicated by my companion that we should get off at the station we were now running in to so he got up and I sort of, moments later followed him off on to the platform and down to the end of the track at this particular station. Now, we were met again and again there was a handover and shortly I found myself walking up steps from what we would term underground in London these days to ground level and we walked quite a fair way following the roads, busy city streets virtually. It wasn’t countrified at all and eventually we turned rather quickly and we banged on another door of another house and that was just opened smartly and I was being introduced to new members of a new family. So, we’re in town. You’d better switch off again.
[machine pause]
GM: It was an apartment on the third floor of, now I’m getting mixed up. This is terrible. I’m sorry. I should have done more of my revision. We may have to make a correction.
CB: Ok.
GM: We walked to a place which I was going to stay and it turned out to be a flat on the third, third floor up in the air and there was a husband and wife and I think we were a bit later than they thought. Anyhow, there also turned out to be some children and I saw them and they saw me and we did have a certain amount of chatter going. My French was pretty nil so I didn’t say much and as far as I can recall the meeting with the children was terminated and where they went after that I’m not quite sure but I stayed at this family for a few more hours into the evening until somewhere around about nine or half past when it was dark. Then I was picked up and we took a bus to another part of the city and got out. A short walk and as far as I can remember we then went up to the first floor, first or second floor, it must have been second and my leader or companion had a key and he opened the door of a flat and he introduced me into an empty space other than than the fact that it was furnished. There was nobody there and I was told about the facilities and, bedtime.
[pause]
GM: Now, I have a feeling that I have omitted an important item. Somewhere on the way through the previous places I went to I picked up a companion. I think it was a, the last one, when I first arrived in the, in the town. Anyhow, it turned out to be a Irishman. He also had been on bombing trips and he had come down and been a prisoner of war. Now, he got away from being put out to grass so to speak or put out to work. I think his name was Michael Joyce, offhand. And we were to stay with each other on occasions most of the way back home. In the future that was, of course. I can’t. Anyhow, Mike and I got on well together and eventually after a couple of days and being very well treated by the lady of the house who obviously was well connected and also well interested in helping us. We were then passed on. From here we, now did we? [pause] I’m sorry to be hesitant -
CB: That’s ok.
GM: With the, with the information.
CB: Well we can cut out the hesitations.
GM: Yes.
CB: I’ll just pause it for a mo.
GM: One moment.
[machine pause]
CB: So you and Michael Joyce became inseparable for the rest of your trip. Is that right?
GM: Not, not entirely. We were sort of companions but on occasions they could only take one person in one house or one establishment so we were parted on occasions for overnight stays and the like. It was only a matter of a day or two. I’ve got it all written down in the books.
CB: Yeah. Quite.
GM: Well certainly my memory has slipped on some of this. [pause] We’ve got about as far as Brussels haven’t we? On that train journey.
CB: Yeah. What were the people doing while you were there?
GM: Have I told you that I’ve had a change of clothes?
CB: No.
GM: Ah.
CB: Other than a coat.
GM: Yes.
CB: So what did you do with your uniform? You needed to keep that on didn’t you so you weren’t shot as a spy?
GM: Well no. Some, somewhere, it must have been the people with the young family. Anyhow, somebody had the suit, had my uniform with the intention of using the material to make something smaller presumably from it and I was given a suit, trousers and jacket in place of the uniform trousers and blouson which one wore as part of battledress. So that got rid of the clothes as far as my part, which was a major issue because whilst I was still in uniform, as you say there was a certain safety in it and then of course it was recognisable as being nothing like they were wearing themselves. Oh my goodness me.
CB: So what colour was this suit? Did they do everything in a dark colour?
GM: Yes. Medium grey. Towards the darker side perhaps than the lighter.
CB: And how would they be dressed at that time?
GM: How did they dress? Well they looked the same as everybody else that was walking streets so whatever was commonplace then was -
CB: That would be quite dark clothing would it?
GM: Well I think the men’s suitings varied from a moderate grey to being perhaps a bit darker than usual. Yes. I can’t recall seeing anything other than a sort of a business sort of appearance to people.
CB: Right. Yeah. So they’ve re-kitted you, you’re in Brussels, then what?
GM: Oh yes. Oh yes we arrived in a flat which was unoccupied. Furnished but unoccupied. And I stayed there a couple of days and also I had a companion Michael Joyce with me and we stayed there until arrangements had been made to progress forward out of Belgium where we, I didn’t know but Mike’s probably into France and so this turned out to be so. We travelled a fair distance and when we got to the border there again was a sort of a bit of a shambles there as to where we were going but it was only in our minds, Mike and mine because we weren’t, didn’t have the destination made out to us. It was best that we, the least we knew of the route was perhaps the best so eventually when we re-joined the train service we progressed from our point of staying to the border which turned out to be between Belgium and France. That was more, it was a bit scary one way or another because everybody was ordered off of the train and there was a train load of people all gathered in little groups all along the platform. Well eventually we had to progress through the customs and having had ourselves sort of identified one way or another they wanted to see a card and showed them there as everybody else seemed to be doing and it was just a sort of a sign to progress forward. So we went through the patrols either who were Belgian on one side and French on the other and the train had been pulled through, empty of course other than its operating crew and was waiting in Belgium for us to get on board which we did. I think in actual fact we did get on in the same compartment as we had previously. I have a feeling that was very likely. Anyhow, the train then sort of started off and it was well filled with passengers and we proceeded across country of course to Paris. By that time it was getting fairly well through the day and it was here that we again had a meeting party and I think there was temporarily there was a bit of a problem as to who and where we were actually going to be for sure but we left it to them and then they sort of resolved all the problems of us arriving. Now, I’ve got a feeling I’ve left something out.
CB: Well we can put it in later.
GM: Yes.
CB: So you’re leaving Brussels on the train.
GM: Left Brussels on the train, went through the border controls.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Got back on the train and arrived in Paris. There we were met and at this point after a, yes, a chat so to speak which was done in a sort of low voice and as far away from other people as possible Mike was then taken away with one of Comete’s people and leaving me for somebody else. In this particular case a local man was, had been invited to do this part of it and we went off of the station through a number of roads to another point which, now, I’m not sure whether that came from –
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo.
CB: Back on this. So the pilot, where is the pilot sitting? Up on the front left.
GM: Front left.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Where the window -
CB: Yes. The glazed area. Yeah
GM: Yes. That’s right.
CB: Then there are steps -
GM: Down.
CB: To where?
GM: To a lower level.
CB: Right.
GM: And in that, in that lower level I thought there were three positions.
CB: Ok.
GM: I thought, under the pilot there was a radio operator and in front of him underneath the, virtually underneath where the pilot’s level.
CB: Yes.
GM: There was the navigator.
CB: Yeah. With a table.
GM: With a table and I thought in front of that there was a front gunner.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Now up, behind the pilot there’s got to be a flight engineer.
CB: That’s it. And under the front gunner is the position for bomb aiming. Is that right?
GM: Yes. Ah.
CB: So the bomb aimer was also the front gunner in the Halifax. Is that right?
GM: That worries me a bit.
CB: Ok.
GM: Isn’t this daft? You live with it.
CB: Yeah. Second nature wasn’t it?
GM: And you remember it for a half a century or more.
CB: Yes. So you said the flight engineer is behind the pilot. Right. And he can communicate directly with the pilot as necessary. Then further back you have two other positions.
[pause]
CB: The mid upper gunner. Is that right? And the rear gunner.
GM: Yes. That is evident I think from the outside photos.
CB: Yes.
GM: I’m with you.
CB: Yeah. So we were just trying to resolve the idea of how a second pilot operation might work. Sometimes bomb aimers did have pilot training. Some of them were qualified pilots and qualified navigators.
[pause]
GM: There was, it seems a number of the local changes.
CB: Yeah.
GM: From one particular unit to one somewhere else.
CB: Yeah.
GM: But at the same level.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Well yeah I can believe that.
CB: Ok.
GM: So –
[machine pause]
GM: Sort of set up in the nose of a Halifax.
CB: Was it?
GM: On, on certain mark numbers I imagine.
CB: So as the navigator how often did you have to move from your seat and why?
GM: Good question. Good question. I thought I’d got a sectional display somewhere in the books there with, of the crew positions.
CB: Ok. We’ll look at that. But in practical terms on an operation how often would you actually leave your seat until you had to, and go to the, look at the plumbing.
GM: One would certainly, for certain one would be out of position during take-off and landing.
CB: So you had a specific position to sit in for take-off and landing.
GM: Yes. I think -
CB: And where would that be?
GM: I imagine, I did it dozens and dozens of times, [pause] in the body of the aircraft.
CB: Right. Behind the pilot and the flight engineer.
GM: Yes. Yes, because we also got in and out of the aircraft at that level.
CB: Right.
GM: At certain times or on occasions we got in through the nose.
CB: Did you? Right.
GM: Now this would have been inconvenient.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Inconvenient at the time preparing to take off.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Because where the navigator sat was on a hatch.
CB: Ah.
GM: And that hatch you could pull up and get in and out so that when you made an emergency departure the navigator collapsed his seat back into position on the wall.
CB: Yeah.
GM: The table was here.
CB: Yes. In front of him.
GM: Yeah you took up the seat and dropped it out of the hole and followed it.
CB: Right. So in the sequence of escape in an aircraft in an event of -
GM: Yes.
CB: Needing to abandon.
GM: Yes.
CB: What was the escape sequence for the crew?
GM: Pilot said, ‘Prepare to leave the aircraft,’ and then I would get up, shove the drawings, the plans and all of the maps into, we had an incinerator tube I seem to remember.
CB: Oh.
GM: You could put them in, you could roll up the paper up, put it in, press the button and the electricity would burn whatever you put in.
CB: Oh really. Right.
GM: That was. That was close at hand so that it could be used in an emergency if you had the time or the documents that needed it. Certainly, when it was said, ‘Abandon the aircraft,’ then we would already have been in the, an open situation where you didn’t have to lift up any more bits of floor or anything like that. The way out was already prepared.
CB: Right.
GM: So when they said, ‘Abandon the aircraft,’ the navigator was, as far as I know, the first to go out through the front hole.
CB: Ok.
GM: Because he was, had been sitting on it.
CB: Yeah. Right.
GM: And you were in the way.
CB: Yes. Followed by?
GM: Oh the, now was it the radio operator that was next to him at that level? He would go out and then the second pilot. Now, at the rear of the aircraft of course there also was access and -
CB: Yeah.
GM: Place in the floor and you went out towards, on the, yes if you, with your back to the tail then you would go out on the left hand side. Drop out of that hole which was also was used as an entrance in ordinary usage time.
CB: Right. So you climbed in through the floor both at the front and the back.
GM: Indeed.
CB: Right. Ok.
GM: Well certainly at the rear it was more of a hatch because part of the side came away as well so it made the opening more easy to use.
CB: Right.
GM: But certainly the departure point was there.
CB: So how did the rear gunner get out?
GM: Well as far as I’ve always known it was standard for them to turn the turret so that his back was in line with the side of the aircraft. In other words -
CB: Right.
GM: The hole was back here
CB: Yeah
GM: And as far as I can remember the, he went out the two hatches on the, in the back of the turret.
CB: Yeah.
GM: I don’t know whether they were disposable or not but I think they certainly would open up.
CB: Yeah.
GM: And he would go backwards with his parachute on his chest.
CB: Oh did he? He had to pick up his parachute first did he or was he wearing it all the time?
GM: That raises a question doesn’t it as to the type of parachute he used.
CB: Because on the Lancaster he had to reach back into the body -
GM: Yes.
CB: Into the fuselage.
GM: Yes.
CB: To pick it up. Did he have to do the same on a Halifax or did he sit on the parachute?
GM: I think he had to get, do the same in the Halifax as he did in the Lancaster.
CB: Did he? Right.
GM: That is my impression. Now, [pause] I didn’t fly in Lancasters so –
CB: No.
GM: I’m only going with what I’ve been told but I think where possible there was a storage spot for each crew person.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Close to hand so he could get hold of his parachute himself and clip it on his chest.
CB: So you’re the navigator in the front of the aircraft.
GM: Yes.
CB: You’ve got a folding table because –
GM: Yeah.
CB: You’ve got map work to do.
GM: Yes. A collapsible one. Yeah.
CB: Where is your parachute? You’re not sitting on it are you?
GM: It’s close by.
CB: Right.
GM: Because one had to put it on.
CB: Yeah. So you’re not sitting on it.
GM: And I put it on my chest.
CB: Yeah. So on this fateful day you first put on your parachute did you? And then open the hatch, fold your table, your seat and open the hatch. Was that the sequence?
GM: The only thing that was foldable was my seat.
CB: Right.
GM: And that came out on a collapsible sort of frame -
CB: Yeah.
GM: Or unit from the side of the aircraft.
CB: Right.
GM: The hole was in the floor.
CB: Yes.
GM: Not anywhere else.
CB: Right.
GM: So you sort of went up and down on the floor in that part of the aircraft. I think that’s it.
CB: Yeah. That’s good. So we’ll stop just for a mo.
GM: Yeah.
[machine pause]
GM: The place where I landed.
CB: We’re talking about meeting Germans.
GM: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Yes. Just in general, no need to record it.
CB: In general terms.
GM: Yes just general terms. So I did come across them on most parts of my travelling.
CB: Yeah. You came across Germans.
GM: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Yes. Whilst we were staying, yes while I was staying in Paris then they were all over the place.
CB: Right.
GM: Even if I was out on a walk with one of the French people. Oh what was his name? Doesn’t matter.
CB: Yeah.
GM: The residents in the city. Yes he took me out once or twice and we walked streets and what have you and walked up the Champs-Elysees and to some of the other recognised spots and also into a museum and that was, that can all be detailed if you want it at the time and yes but, this was when we stayed in the flat which was unoccupied by anybody else.
CB: Yeah.
GM: But that was short. We got, we did get farmed out to people and the man was very useful and we eventually picked up an early morning train in Paris heading south.
CB: Right.
GM: And the intention was to get to, oh what’s the name of the town? Down close to the Pyrenees.
CB: Yeah. Bordeaux?
GM: Yes. On the way through there yes. And I think, was it St Jean de Luz we stayed in?
CB: Right.
GM: Or lived in. Possibly so. Having got that far then the party of other, a couple or three people I think we made something like four people together started off one afternoon. That’s not quite true I think we had a train journey. Anyhow, we started off and we climbed up in to the Pyrenees and we did it, some bizarre, we did this during part of this during daylight of course and overnight we went up and down up and down and we crossed the actual border which was the centre of the Bidasoa, whatever its pronunciation is, which was a river and from that position we climbed up to a height but on this time on the south banks of the river rather than where we came down which was on the north ones and eventually we dropped down the Pyrenees slopes to the rather level sort of ground which was in Spain. From Spain of course then having sort of made our presence known then the embassy took over and arranged the transfer of the, I think there was three of us to be taken to the capital and that was all done in one long run. I’m not sure how many hours it took but it seemed to be quite a long way and we stayed in the embassy.
CB: It looks as though you went to Saint Sebastian.
GM: Yes.
CB: With Bernard. And then you went to the British consulate in Bilbao who then arranged for you to go Madrid two hundred and fifty miles away.
GM: Very likely. I’m not, I can’t remember how many days we stayed there. We stayed with a couple in their flat in Spain.
CB: Right.
GM: Probably two nights at the most. I could probably check it and as we say we did this long run down to the embassy in Madrid which is, then, did we actually stay there? Yes they did have quarters there and we became companions of some people who were already on the run so to speak.
CB: Yes.
GM: And they were flown away. There was, there was some army people around as well.
CB: Right.
GM: They got away and eventually it became our turn and in the early evening of the last day of October.
CB: 1942.
GM: ’42, yes. We got on to a train and we did at some point that evening we had a meal. Now I’m trying to visualise exactly where we were. Whether we were in the train or other? Don’t remember much. Anyhow, I know we picked up a separate train from previously which run us down overnight to Madrid and, I got that wrong.
CB: Gibraltar.
GM: From, from, this was from Madrid to Gibraltar. Yes.
CB: Yes.
GM: Yes. You’re right. Quite right.
CB: The overnight train.
GM: Overnight train and we were picked up and met at our destination and we were then, yes. We went, we then went down by train also to Gibraltar. We got out on the Spanish side and I think we had a, had the train across on the railway line which ran through Spain across at Gibraltar and through to what was, I think, the only station in Gibraltar. Perhaps there were two train stops. Certainly there was a terminus in the, in the more or less centre of -
CB: Right.
GM: That’s right. I suppose it’s an island isn’t it?
CB: No it isn’t. It’s a -
GM: Yeah. Anyhow, it was a satisfactory termination of the effort to pass across all the necessary spaces to reach Gib and catch the boat on the convenient occasion for us we just waited until we were called but it was only a couple, a couple of nights as far as I can recall.
CB: To be returned to Britain.
GM: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
GM: We then flew back to the UK.
CB: What did you fly in?
GM: Was it a Dakota?
CB: Yeah. When -
GM: I think so.
CB: When you were in Madrid you were in the embassy.
GM: Yes.
CB: What did the air attaché have to say?
GM: ‘Welcome’ [laughs] and he was more interested in identifying us so that he could notify the ongoing people that we were there having escaped and I presume he was he was looking for instructions as to how to get us from Gibraltar to the UK which he did very successfully because we, we flew overnight and landed in Portreath in the early light hours of the following day which was the 1st of November and we had a brief passage through customs in Cornwall and we then went back to the same plane which flew up to, now, somewhere, just west of London?
CB: Northolt. No?
GM: I think not.
CB: Ok I’ll stop there a mo.
[machine pause]
CB: It went to Aldermaston did it?
GM: Possibly. I’ve got it written down.
CB: Yeah. I’ve got it. I’ve got Aldermaston here.
GM: You’ve got Aldermaston there.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Well that’s fair enough.
CB: Yeah.
GM: And there we arrived just after normal meal time. I think more or less 1 o’clock, 2 o’clock in the day and we were fed and then we were transferred to London and we were taken to the headquarters. Now what was the name of the street? Oh my memory is getting terrible.
CB: According to this you went -
GM: Yes, go on.
CB: The Grand Central Hotel.
GM: Could well be.
CB: In Marylebone.
GM: Marylebone. Correct. Yes.
CB: Which was the London transit camp.
GM: Yes. That’s right. And we were greeted by I don’t know if he was a flight sergeant or whether he was a warrant officer. I don’t even know whether there was an officer on duty then. Anyhow, the chap that met us as we walked in wanted to know who we were, what we were and where we, our homes were which was the most interesting and when I said it was Wembley and there we were at Baker Street and it’s just down the other end of the line so to speak. So he said, ‘You can go home till tomorrow. Be back here at,- ’ I wasn’t sure what the time was. 9 o’clock I think and a couple of the other people who had come over with us they were also given instructions but my Irish companion he was bedded at the hotel there. He hadn’t got any relatives close enough to be of any use. So I went home. You can imagine the results but it so happened that it was still the 1st of November and it was still my birthday.
CB: And how old were you that day?
GM: Twenty three.
CB: Right.
GM: I would think.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Twenty three. Yes.
CB: Now what were you wearing? Had you got RAF clothing again or -
GM: Ah.
CB: Because in your escape through France what were you wearing in the end? Were you in a suit all the way of some kind, provided, or were you -
GM: Yes.
CB: What were you -
GM: That suit materialised while I was still in Belgium I think it was.
CB: Right.
GM: And they took, yes, somebody had yes somebody had my RAF blouson and trousers of a, in a typical greeny colour. Or it was a grey green colour or whatever battle dress was made of. I lost that but instead of that of course I got a moderately fitting suit which I still had on when I got home and occasionally I used afterwards and as I say we got shot down on what was it, about somewhere about the 4th of October and I walked in on the 1st of November.
CB: Were they expecting you to arrive? Had you forewarned them?
GM: Yes. My mum, I’d already sent a telegram from Gibraltar home and she was notified by Air Ministry as well ‘cause they were well up on their knowledge of where we were.
CB: Yeah.
GM: There’s no doubt about that.
CB: Right. Now, this companion of yours was he from another squadron or was he from something completely different?
GM: What was his name? The Irishman?
CB: Yeah.
GM: No. We, we only met in extremis so to speak on the way down to Gibraltar. In actual fact I think it was somewhere shortly after Paris or whatever. Anyhow, it was fairly early on that I met Michael Joyce. That was his name.
CB: Yeah.
GM: And we stayed together to a degree. Sometimes apart sometimes in the same buildings and we certainly got down to Gibraltar together and let’s see, what was his rank? Flight sergeant. I was a flight sergeant at the time. Yes.
CB: What crew member was he?
GM: Ah you ask some nasty questions my friend.
CB: I know. It’s bad isn’t it?
GM: Yes.
CB: But you get another sweet if you answer correctly.
GM: What was his job?
CB: He wasn’t a flight engineer like you was he?
GM: I was a navigator.
CB: Sorry, a navigator like you.
GM: No. Mike. [pause] Oh my goodness me. That’s a rotten question.
CB: Yes. I’ll give you a different one. In the way down you’re doing everything together so what are your feelings as you are on the escape route and you’re together in hostile territory? What did you feel about that?
GM: I’m not entirely sure. I was, I was always happy to tackle things as a single person but it, when we had to do things together then I was quite willing to adapt to those conditions. So I don’t think it made much, made much of an impression on me whether I was working with him or he was acting on his own or I was acting on my own. I think both of us were fairly quick on adapting to changing circumstances.
CB: Yeah.
GM: It didn’t worry me at all to be, to operate on my own. I did quite a bit of walking from one place to another and in the early days of course I did the first three or four nights as a single figure.
CB: Yes. So you get over the Pyrenees. You’re out of immediate German danger. How did you feel about that? What sort of feeling did you have?
GM: Oh. Yeah.
CB: When you both got over in to Spain.
GM: Oh gave a sort of heartfelt but quiet sort of, ‘Yes. This is it. You made it.’
CB: Yeah.
GM: There was a certain exultation on my part of having a sort of a smooth way across Europe and I fooled the Germans at it at the same time.
CB: So was it a mixture of triumph and relief or something different?
GM: Yeah. Well the exact moment that one got over was rather obscure as to exactly where it was that it was the river the Bidasoa the that we had to cross down the valley which is the boundary between Spain and France so in actual fact having got across that river then one was technically in Belgium er not Belgium -
CB: Spain.
GM: Spain.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Yeah. The Pyrenees were scattered with people one way or another who seemed to have a reason for being there and I don’t think at the time we realised exactly when we could say when we were in one country or the other. It was just a continuation across, across the high ground.
CB: And of course Spain was a fascist country then so how was it -
GM: We rather thought they might have been, yeah. I would have thought they might have tried to please the German presence.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Actually I think amongst a certain range of people it was just the reverse but there we are.
CB: Because it was Basque country there of course.
GM: Indeed. Yes.
CB: So that was anti-establishment wasn’t it?
GM: Yes.
CB: Still is.
GM: Yes. I imagine so. I haven’t been over there for years now but I have made several trips there since the wartime period.
CB: So just moving on from there you’re back home, you’ve been told to report the next morning from Wembley back to the hotel.
GM: Yes indeed.
CB: In Marylebone.
GM: That is correct.
CB: So then what?
GM: We were, there was a special interview I think, that latter part of that day to acquaint us with our situation and answer questions and to only be told that with the amount of knowledge that we carried with ourselves and people in the other countries who were trying to help us that we sort of them owed them a debt, general impression, which I agreed with and then to sort of map out what we would do for the remainder of the, our membership of the RAF and I sort of was aware of some of the ways in which I could proceed. The thing is they said, ‘You can’t go back on ops again with the amount of knowledge that you have of the help that you found available.’ They didn’t say for how long. I got the impression that it was, yes for a period anyhow but I was aware that there was what they called the SN course, The staff navigators course at, up in the Midlands and so I said, ‘Well if we’re going to be posted to do something then I’d like to do that course.’ It was on, a rather special course on navigation and the like so they said, ‘Right,’ and then they said, ‘Of course that is a bit in the future. We’ve already got some people ahead of you on the list but we’ll do it as soon as you can.’ And in the June of ’43, June of ‘43 which was, let’s see, seven, eight or nine months wait then I was posted up into Scotland and one or two other places and in July ‘43 then got married and on the, just before that happened I found out that I was going to be posted from the aerodrome near [pause] Oh God.
CB: Which part of the country?
GM: Wales.
CB: Oh right. Not St Athan.
GM: No. No. More or less the border between England and, er England, the border, oh this is stupid.
CB: So what purpose was this particular posting?
GM: Oh to be on the teaching staff of the navigation.
CB: Right.
GM: Crikey.
CB: Ok. Well we’ll pick that up in a mo. So then before you started you were then on leave to get married were you?
GM: Yes. Yes. Yes
CB: Where did you go for your honeymoon?
GM: Oh West Wales. As far west as you can get.
CB: The Gower Peninsula.
GM: Not far from it. Yes, the bay goes up in a great big sweep.
CB: Oh Cardigan Bay.
GM: Cardigan Bay up at the top.
CB: Not Aberystwyth.
GM: Yes.
CB: Right.
GM: Yes. Which is a university town.
CB: Yeah.
GM: The university buildings were to agree to be available for the lecturers and what have you that what I was doing was available so after, after that and we got married, we went up north to the Central Navigation School or whatever they called it, at, yes [pause] oh I’m an idiot.
CB: Was that in Scotland or was it in northern England?
[pause]
CB: Ok. We’ll look that one up as well. So at the Central Navigation School that’s when you did your specialist navigation course. Was it?
GM: SN course, yes.
CB: Yes.
GM: Yes, indeed.
CB: Which lasted how long?
GM: Three months.
CB: How many?
GM: Three.
CB: Three months.
GM: Three months.
CB: Right.
GM: And -
CB: So you went to Cranage. Cranage was the -
GM: Yes.
CB: Central Navigation School.
GM: Yes. Indeed.
CB: But it was a three months course.
GM: That’s right.
CB: And then what?
GM: No. That isn’t right. That’s not right. So when did Aberystwyth come in on it?
CB: When you went on honeymoon.
GM: Yes it did. But [pause] I’m an idiot.
[Machine pause]
CB: Just while we, right so after you finished at Cranage on your navigation course you said you went to Wigtown.
GM: Yes.
CB: Which is Galloway.
GM: Yes.
CB: What were you doing there?
GM: That’s where I was part of the lecturing staff and also I spent more time on the arranging of the exercises and what have you.
CB: Right.
GM: There was some lecturing in it but it was mainly to get these chaps airborne.
CB: Yes.
GM: Doing the exercises. So, yes I rather rated as part of the overall staff rather than
CB: Yeah.
GM: Just one particular position.
CB: And how long did you stay there?
GM: Until a short period after war was terminated.
CB: Right.
GM: I think the period was, the immediate period was followed by the sending of military people, British military people to Japan.
CB: Yeah. Tiger Force.
GM: Yes. Yes. I think that took over. They were and then there was in the appropriate time and there was a cessation there and peace was declared so to speak.
CB: August ’45. So -
GM: Yes. So it was a couple of years I had up in -
CB: Yes
GM: Scotland generally.
CB: So with the end of hostilities in World War 2 what happened next for you?
GM: Well, Wigtown, the airfield and what have you there was closed down and I was posted to somewhere in Norfolk.
CB: Which part of Norfolk?
GM: Cardigan Bay is it? No. Wait a minute. Which is Cardigan Bay?
CB: No. That’s in West Wales.
GM: Oh that’s not it. On the east coast.
CB: You don’t mean Coltishall do you?
GM: No. [pause]
CB: We’ll stop a mo.
[machine pause]
CB: So you went to Norfolk with the closure of Wigtown because the war had ended and what did you do there?
GM: Well previously while I was at the aerodrome in Scotland -
CB: Yeah.
GM: My rank had gone up to warrant officer and the chap I was working with said, ‘You can do better than this,’ so I applied for a commission and it was then, that was, that was somebody else’s suggestion and I was supported by the senior officer at -
CB: At Wigtown.
GM: Yes. And I had the necessary introductions and interviews and I was commissioned. PO. And that was early in that two year stay up in Scotland. By the time I came down to after the closure of the camp there and went to the one that we had just been immediately talking about in -
CB: In Norfolk. Yeah.
GM: The Norfolk area. Yes. And I finished up a flight lieutenant.
CB: What was your role there? Were you teaching navigation in Norfolk or were you planning ops or what were you doing?
GM: Oh what did we do? The last weeks. Yes. Oh yes I’d made a study to a fair extent on training for crews on, as far as practical exercises were concerned on navigation so we used to have the whole course or several courses that were run by the station and they used to do exercises on the ground, navigation exercises and we’d feed them with information as to factors and we sort of wrote a scenario or set of circumstances to give the people on the ground the opportunity to resolve their problem, navigational problems and so in actual fact they did a flying exercise except that it was a set procedure on the, on the ground. Sounds a bit rummy but we were able to produce conditions and information so that they could do the navigation exercise in addition to having to do it in the air. I mean there was a big demand for air, air time and part of that air time was giving groups of people, they were full courses in actual fact. These exercises which they could do safely to start with on the ground and then they practised as far as I could tell, at other postings in, with aircraft flying.
CB: Were these squadrons that you were teaching or special courses for navigation?
GM: They were navigational courses.
CB: Right.
GM: You had, I don’t suppose one had more than twenty people in any one course and you would have them for a half day and we had a number of, set number of exercises planned out and we provided as much information that we would expect them to be able to receive during the, an actual flight. So it was an exercise modelled on a flying exercise and the actual airborne flying was taken away and so you fed the course in the half day all the necessary factors that they would need to do if they were doing it in the air.
CB: So they would then go and fly. What aircraft were they flying? I mean were they Lancs?
GM: Ansons I think.
CB: Ansons. Right.
GM: Yes. A good old workhorse that aircraft.
CB: Yeah. With a view to going on to, these were all navigators rather than pilots.
GM: Oh yes. They were all navigators. Yes. They took the course. They went through the varying exercises as we could plan them at ground level.
CB: Right.
GM: And so they got procedures to be familiar with and then they, when they left us they went on a course which tested their application to those features.
CB: Right. So you were doing that for a while. When were you demobbed and where?
GM: I was demobbed as such from Uxbridge and close by.
CB: Did you apply for it?
GM: That’s only just –
CB: Or were you -
GM: No. No
CB: Suddenly told.
GM: No. When we were posted down from Scotland earlier the previous year and we did a job closer down in Norfolk when ones calling up papers came through and gave you a place to take your demob. So you -
CB: Right.
GM: Went down to that place at the declared time and they -
CB: So that’s May 1946.
GM: And gave you the big heave ho.
CB: May 1946.
GM: Yeah.
CB: Now –
GM: Was it May? Was it?
CB: 16th
GM: It was April or May.
CB: Yeah. 16th of May 1946
GM: Yes.
CB: According to that note.
GM: Well that is maybe including -
CB: Terminal leave.
GM: Terminal leave.
CB: Yeah.
GM: And your departure date was the end of that terminal leave.
CB: Yeah. So how did you feel about that after all the rigours of what you’d been through? Flying and escaping.
GM: Feel about it. No. I wasn’t an enthusiast but I thought I should have hated not to have not been part of it. Well I started with navigation and the like. I liked to know where I was and I liked to know where I was going and I think that was a fair guiding light to me pushing in certain directions but having had a very close brush with being terminated whilst I was in Bomber Command I was very thankful to be able to do my bit to progress the hostilities in whichever way they gave me the access to.
CB: You explained that they told you couldn’t go back on to ops. How did you feel about that?
GM: I don’t think anybody said that you can’t, eventually. I got the impression that it was not going to happen. The decision wasn’t mine it was theirs.
[phone ringing]
GM: Oh excuse me a minute.
CB: Yeah.
GM: I’d better find out what it is.
[machine paused]
CB: So you were married in the war.
GM: Yes.
CB: Gordon.
GM: Yes.
CB: And what prompted you to do it during the war and not wait until the end?
GM: Well in nineteen, let me start it was a bit earlier than that.
CB: Ok.
GM: I went to school with a chap and we were more or less together for most of the, that period of schooling to technical college.
CB: Yeah.
GM: And we continued to be friends. Our families got to know each other. I met his sister who was a couple of years older than him.
CB: Yeah.
GM: And she was after, after the war was declared, oh I would say that she was a ballet dancer and -
CB: Yes.
GM: She was in Italy at the time of the declaration of war so she had to get back to the UK. I was in and out of their house a fair bit until we got called up. I’d previously tried to get in to the RAF reserve, volunteer reserve but attending evening classes and things like that four nights a week and the result that I was not particularly fit so I was referred and told to get fit while working five and a half days a week and also doing four evenings of evening classes. It was taking a bit of a long time. So war was declared and the lady in question got herself, with her friends back from Italy to the UK. I got to know her pretty well during the earlier lifetime and so I suppose whenever I came down on leave then we saw each other and in 1943 after my travels we got married in the July ‘43. What point are we trying to make?
CB: Well we’re talking about how you got married in the war.
GM: Oh.
CB: When some people delayed getting married.
GM: Yes. Yes. I can, I can imagine that but also I thought we don’t know how long this is going to be going on.
CB: Right.
GM: I mean we were living so to speak in the forces we were living from day to day.
CB: Yes.
GM: On, as a basis, whether if you were on active service or were in a similar but not so dangerous situation whatever it was, you were still occupied and we didn’t want to wait.
CB: No.
GM: For an unspecified period so we got married in the July ‘43. She was in London in a show and with Tommy Handley and that group of people and so she decided that we’d get married.
CB: Yeah.
GM: So when I got posted up to Scotland then she said, ‘Right. I’m coming up too.’ And we, I got permission to live out and she came up and there was always the chance that she could go back and join another show. Tommy, Tommy Handley was a considerable friend of hers so it ended very happily on the whole. The only problem was medical but that’s not part of the news I spread around.
CB: No. No.
GM: But it was a considerable problem. Considerable problem. After the wartime period when both David and, who died now and Paul, my, who is my remaining son. Yes we were very happy to get two children and but it was a difficult situation. Sort of a, I think she had two or three other pregnancies which didn’t mature.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When did she pass away?
GM: August 1999.
CB: Gosh. A long time ago.
GM: Well, last century.
CB: Yes.
GM: Yeah. No. She was, she was in her nineties anyhow. So -
CB: After the war what did you do then?
GM: Oh well -
CB: You were demobbed so now what?
GM: Yes. I was demobbed I’d already, during the leave, made contact with the chartered surveyors that I was working for in the pre-war period and so I went back there. The wages were not brilliant and I don’t suppose we had a vast amount of savings but we had savings anyhow so instead, working up in Norfolk with the air force my term had come so I got the demob instructions and I took them. Money being what it is well I’m being paid by the air force for my demob my leave period so I had a week’s leave and we got back home. We stayed with my mother. She was living on her own. My father had died during the period of the war and so we started living together there. We’d been living together in various places around the country when, between marriage and the war finishing which was about two years I suppose.
CB: They wouldn’t pay the marriage allowance would they? The air force allowance during the war because you were underage. Under twenty five in other words.
GM: Yes. No. No. Do you know I haven’t really considered the, what happened from the money point of view. We seemed to be, had enough money.
CB: Comfortable.
GM: Comfortable yes. Comfortable. During that period that I was up in Scotland and what have you because at most of that time then we lived together and when I was demobbed then as I say we were living together with, at my mother’s house even though my wife’s parents only lived a ten minute walk away.
CB: Oh right.
GM: So my old school chum was now a brother in law I suppose. Yes.
CB: Yes.
GM: Yes. Well he was brilliant at his job. He was a scientist -
CB: Oh.
GM: From the Natural History Museum.
CB: Oh.
GM: And that he continued as his career until he died.
CB: So you went back to being a surveyor.
GM: Yeah.
CB: What did you, how did that progress for you? Did you stay with your original employers or did you move to something different?
GM: Well I stayed with them and the requirements were that I became a chartered surveyor.
CB: Yeah.
GM: So I started, or had already started the course at Regent Street Polytechnic and I say I was there for varying periods. I think the most I ever spent was four, four nights a week in classes. It’s a bit misty some of those periods but I stayed there and took the exams with the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors and the intermediate got through and got to the finals and was and I had an offer to work for somebody else which was London County Council.
CB: Right.
GM: I had applied for a job there. Mainly because the people that were under training at that time of course were the people I’d met on courses elsewhere and I stayed there until, yes, until I got my qualifications and then I changed. Mainly it was the people I knew at Regent Street Polytechnic became my sort of friends and so the job became available which I applied for and got and I was with friends virtually straight away which was socially was yes, an advantage.
CB: So you stayed with London County Council until retirement did you?
GM: That is so.
CB: And when did you retire?
GM: Oh what a horrible question to ask. I was sixty four and I had the sum of that year so now -
CB: I’ve got the answer to that in here. So that was 1973.
GM: Was it? Ok. Right. Well yes I came out in the in the summer of ‘73 and -
CB: Just before your birthday did you?
GM: Something like that.
CB: Yeah.
GM: Yes.
CB: And did you then pick up other things in your retirement or did you have a quiet time?
GM: No. Evening classes I say were, absorbed a lot of my spare time but I became qualified became a chartered surveyor and also I was working for London County Council when the results came out so I was quite happy with that. I was working with people I knew and yes, and in a job which I enjoyed and the outcome was I think fairly reasonable and in my favour.
CB: Yeah. What I meant was after an active life when you come to retirement there can be a vacuum and I wonder what you picked up in your retirement you see.
GM: So, let’s see.
CB: Hobbies.
GM: Yes I I’d been a keen photographer for a long time. I didn’t do it professionally. I did some pictures for people now and again but it was just on a friendly basis and I, yeah, retirement. Oh yes at that time after I finished working for the quantity surveyors as such they from time to time wanted help for additional work. They had regular staff but sometimes the demands on the staff exceeded their people that were available to do it.
CB: Their capacity.
GM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
GM: So on occasion I worked for the same people, on the same as my job and I got paid for my professional help. This went on until demand diminished so I didn’t kill my pleasures of the time with it but I certainly, I fitted it all in.
CB: Yeah. Now having escaped by parachute from an aeroplane that made you a member of the Caterpillar Club. How did that fit into your life as an association?
GM: Well now and again there were events which attracted me I suppose. I was just thinking what else was. Oh yes. The boys were growing up. We’d had two children and I became interested in the scouting movement and the boys were gradually being absorbed in to that movement and I was asked to, if I’d become one of the management committee or whatever it was of the scouting movement. We had a sort of family connection with the movement and I sort of became part of the local troops and so we took part in some of the administration that was related to our area. Yes. It was a, it was a pleasurable time and it occupied a number of events and both the boys were keen scouters so I think it was a reasonable changeover and still gave you that sensation of being wanted.
CB: Yeah. Now in a way, for other people looking in, one of the most cataclysmic times of your life was being shot down and then escaping.
GM: Oh yes been a big factor.
CB: How did you then link which you alluded to earlier with the people who’d helped you return to Britain successfully?
GM: Ah. Well there was an organisation which was set up, I suppose, known as the RAF Escaping Society and I think that was set up around about the end of the war or shortly afterwards and various meetings were attended. Yes. One sort of kept an, kept an interest so that it was like other military or semi military organisations. You had the regular sort of programmes throughout the year of remembering the people of your life, in the past and like any of these organisations like the British Legion which is more or less run on those styles so you had while you were working on civilian occupations then you also maintained the friendships and the relationships as you had done for the six years in the war with other people who were doing the same job as yourself.
CB: Yeah. This is how you link with Air Commodore Charles Clarke?
GM: Yes. I know him and yeah I respect him and we have met from time to time but we’re not social friends.
CB: Right.
GM: As such.
CB: No.
GM: No. He’s Charles Clark. I’m Gordon Mellor and we both live in different areas. We see little of each other but we are sociable with each other and this applies to quite a lot of other people who were in the air force.
CB: Indeed.
GM: You maintain the sort of interest as much as possible but it’s got to take its place in your life.
CB: What about 103 Squadron Association. Was that active?
GM: Yes. Still is. This coming weekend I’m going up there. I am, am I the president? I think I’m the president of the members of the Association. I seem to be in that sort of role. Yes.
CB: The driving force there.
GM: Yes. I think so. Somewhere on the papers it shows. Yes.
CB: Ok.
GM: I’m the President. Yeah.
CB: Good.
GM: Yes and I think one stays there until you -
CB: You feel you’ve had enough.
GM: Fade away.
CB: Yeah.
GM: I’m not even sure you can retire but you never know.
CB: Well there are a number of active members still on all these things?
CB: Yes.
GM: Yeah. They are going down of course in number.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
GM: There’s a number who are, yes. Now they’re getting on quite well. Many of us are in our ninetieth or thereabouts. You have to have been to have been in the wartime period.
CB: Yes. Exactly. Gordon Mellor. Thank you very much indeed. Really interesting.
GM: Thank you for coming. Mucked it up to a certain extent in the latter times because I should have done better really.
CB: Well don’t worry we’ll link it all altogether.
GM: Yes. Ok.
CB: Thank you.
GM: Come back to the subject and we can have a bit of time then I’ll give you better answers than I’ve done it off the cuff I expect.
CB: Ok. That’s fine. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gordon Mellor. Four
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-22
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMellorGH160822
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Gordon Mellor successfully evaded capture when he baled out of his aircraft and landed in Germany. For several days he walked until he managed to make contact with the Belgian resistance and the Comete line who began the process of guiding him home. He was provided with false documents, a suit and taken by various routes and stayed in various safe houses. He had the experience of sharing a crowded bus with German soldiers and officers. Finally the members of Comete got Gordon across Belgium, France and into Spain from where he was then taken to Gibraltar. He flew back to the UK on his 23rd birthday. He became an instructor training other navigators. After the war Gordon returned to Chartered Surveying.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Gibraltar
Germany
Great Britain
Spain
France--Paris
Temporal Coverage
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1942-11-01
1943
1946
Format
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02:00:54 audio recording
103 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bale out
de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007)
evading
navigator
RAF Wigtown
Resistance
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/553/8817/PMellorG1501.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/553/8817/AMellorG151006.2.mp3
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Title
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Mellor, Gordon
Gordon Herbert Mellor
G H Mellor
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Mellor, G
Description
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Four oral history interviews with Gordon Mellor (1919 -2018, 929433, 172802 Royal Air Force). He trained in Canada as an observer and served as a navigator with 103 Squadron. He was shot down over Holland in 1942 but evaded capture.
Date
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2015-10-06
2016-06-07
2016-08-17
2016-08-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AS: This is Andrew Sadler interviewing Gordon Mellor in his home in Wembley on Tuesday the 6th of October 2015 for the Bomber Command Centre.
GM: Yes.
AS: Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to interview you, Gordon. Can I start off by asking you where and when you were born?
GM: Oh yes. I was born in Wembley. The other side of Wembley. A place called Alperton. And this was in 1919. November. November the 1st actually. And I lived there with my parents. I went to school locally until I was thirteen. Then I went to the Acton Technical College so that I had an education which was a little different to the ordinary standard county school level. I stayed there. My father died in 1939, in the beginning of the year and I stayed there until my calling up papers came. The reason why I waited until then was that I applied in 1938 to join the Volunteer Reserve. I’d been doing four and five nights a week at evening school during the preceding months and I was a bit below standard as far as health was concerned. Anyhow, during the period in which I was improving my level of health which was during Christmas ‘38 up until the war was declared in September I used to go out for a run early morning, half past six or thereabouts and do about three, three and a half miles and come back. Have breakfast. Dress appropriately and go off to central London to work. On the commencement of hostilities between Germany in September ‘39 the Air Ministry sent back all the, I suppose it was all of them, certainly my papers came back with a general advice to make another application. Well, it wasn’t long before my call up number came so I applied in the appropriate form and I was accepted to go into the air force as a navigator. I don’t know why I particularly chose that from being a pilot but it held a fascination for me. This happened early 1940 and from thence on, after initial working during the day as a, as an ordinary airman. AC2 as we were called. Aircraftsman second class. I improved my health no doubt and no end and eventually we were taken off just what was ground defence. There being such a rush of people joining the air force that they had to farm us out onto other duties for the first few months. We then entered the regular course to become navigators. The first amount of work was common to all trades, flying trades, in the air force, to get us all up to a general standard of education. And after that we then became part of the Empire Air Scheme I suppose you would call it and I was posted to an ITW which was an Initial Training Wing for basic education on navigation. It wasn’t very detailed at all but it got us into the right sort of preparation level. And after some twelve — twelve to fourteen weeks, I suppose it would be. We were all told to pack up and we were then en-trained and taken up to Scotland, put onto a boat and we went to Iceland. And from there we got on to an armed merchant cruiser, I think it was and we were taken over to Canada where we were trained for the particular trades that we’d been allocated. Mine being the navigation and associated items. We trained at various stations around Canada. The planes we flew there of course was the Avro Anson and the training crew were the captain of the aircraft. He had a wireless operator as his regular crewman and had two trainee navigators — which I became, with another man. And we went through the whole course of navigation training which I think was something like three months. And we then had a certain amount of leave and we were then taken on for another four weeks on training particularly with reference to the stars and sites and the like. And then we were posted to another aerodrome entirely which was, in this case, run by the Canadian Air Force and had a bombing and gunnery course thrown in of some weeks so that by the time we came out we were known as observers rather than just navigators. And, as such, having completed the bomb aiming course and the like we then were en-trained back to the east coast of Canada and brought back to the UK. I’m not sure whether it was called UK in those days but we came back and landed at Liverpool and were immediately transferred down to the south coast where we were at a reception centre. Now, do you want me to further on that line?
AS: Yes, please but can I ask you first why did you join the RAF?
GM: Ah. Well, I suppose we had Hendon Aerodrome which was only a few miles away from us as I live in Wembley. The other side it would be from now but there was a little group of us all living in the same road and we all went to the same school. And aeroplanes were buzzing around the Hendon area a fair bit of the time and I suppose we recognised the various makes and patterns and we became interested in the flying and we used to, on a Saturday morning quite often we used to cycle over to Hendon. And there was also another aerodrome called Stag Lane I think it was and we used to stand around the edge of the airfield. Behind a hedge I expect. Not on the actual field itself. And used to watch the planes taking off with the owner pilots there. For an entertaining day I suppose. But certainly, we enjoyed watching the planes and we did gain a fair bit of knowledge about them. Even as youngsters. From, yes, eleven twelve onwards.
AS: Was your father in the First World War?
GM: Not as such. He was in the building trade. He used to be in charge of the whole site and all the work that was going on. I suppose you would call him a foreman or a general foreman. But certainly, it was one which required considerable skill. He had to familiar with all the various trades and I, perhaps got my interest in surveying from him. I can’t say. It just happened.
AS: So, you’d been trained in, mostly in Canada, and you’re now back on the south coast at a reception centre and you’ve trained to be an observer.
GM: Yes.
AS: So, you can do the job of map —
GM: As a navigator.
AS: Navigator.
GM: Yeah. And bomb aimer and also, we had some experience on using firearms. Also, in the form of the turret in the aircraft. They were rather primitive in the beginning but they did improve no end during the war.
AS: Ok. Please carry on.
GM: Well, having got back from Canada I was then posted to an aerodrome in the Midlands and I’m trying to think of the name. Lichfield. That was it. and we were then, we were there to become experienced in flying in the weather conditions which we could expect in this country and in Europe. In Canada we were much further south and the weather was much warmer and more pleasant. But we had to get used to flying in winter. And at the OTU the Operational Training Unit was there purely to bring us up to speed in the conditions in which we would be expected to fly in over Europe. After quite some weeks. It could be six. Six to eight weeks. Perhaps a little bit more. One was then posted to a squadron. And during that training period in this country then of course you met pilots, air gunners, bomb aimers and the like and you formed up in crews so that as we were flying Wellingtons at that time then the number in the crew was five. Or if you had two pilots — one a second pilot then of course it would be six. And I was posted to 103 Squadron with the rest of my crew which was in Lincolnshire. Rather north. And after a fortnight or so of familiarisation with the area and the conditions in, we started as a crew on our operations. First of all, with an experienced operational pilot and our own captain, as we referred to him, played second fiddle to a certain extent. He was the one who was getting the most instruction. And the navigator as well. The gunners had a certain amount of additional training but there was nothing other than the targets being towed by other aircraft as their object of firing at. Anyhow, we got through the early days and started operating against some targets in Germany. That went on until, let’s see, wait a minute [pause] I must have gone to the squadron somewhere around about April or May and strangely enough we were flying Wellingtons there as well as we had done on the, at the training. And then there was a change in the aircraft. The Wellington 1Cs were withdrawn and we were fitted up with Halifax which were Halifax 2s. I think they were. They were four-engined aircraft. More sophisticated in the equipment which we had to learn about. We started coming across the Gee box and all other bits and pieces which were more modern than we had been experiencing. Then we continued after a brief period of training to operate on the, with the new aircraft. Four-engined aircraft. And this did not last very long. About two or three months. Perhaps. Let’s see. It would be [pause] about four months. And we were on the first thousand bomber raids which took place in the middle of 1942. And we survived those ok and went on operating and when I got to somewhere about ten or eleven we were then transferred, as I say, on to the four-engined aircraft. They were, they were ok for flying. They probably weren’t quite the standard of the Lancaster in performance but they certainly were very effective. And that was Ok for a while until we were sent out on one particular raid. This would be the [pause] about the 4th of October 1942 and we hit trouble having bombed the target and making our way from it. A JU110 latched onto our tail and we had a little conversation as a crew. Shall we open fire on him? He seemed to be just following us rather closely at the back and I imagine he was waiting for us to get away from the town and when we got to open country he would probably let us have it. Anyhow, we opened fire on him. Whether we did any damage or not I’ve no idea but certainly we had ammunition flying all around us and we were set on fire in the two inboard engines of the aircraft. And the pilot had done his best to manoeuvre out of the stream of fire but the chap who was firing at us in the German plane obviously was well experienced and he just sank down out of the sight of the mid upper gunner. The rear gunner had a view of him but he was hurt in the initial opening fire from the German plane and it rather put him out of action. And as I say we, we had three or four attempts at shooting at us by the German plane. The fires in the two engines just, just got worse. There was nothing that could be done about it so it was a just a question of baling out which we had a procedure for which we followed and one after the other, I was one of the first so I don’t know exactly what happened to all the others but from visits and talks with the three survivors other than myself I rather gather that it was a disastrous period. The plane was going down fast and it was for everybody to get out of their particular position. More or less following the order in which we’d had dummy runs on. So, having got out of the target area the plane was going down towards the ground at a fair speed and we crossed the target just over ten thousand feet which had been quite low but it was suitable for the occasion. We were under two thousand feet I think when we started to bale out and I was fortunate. I came out of the hole in the floor of the plane, in the nose, because I was sitting on top of it and having lifted the seat there was just this hole there so I went out of there straight away. I didn’t want to hold anybody else up. And I pulled the cord on the parachute and I was one of the lucky ones. It opened and I soon found myself heading towards the ground at a very modest pace with the parachute up above me and swinging about a bit. But the strange thing was that having been in the noise of the four engines of the aircraft for some hours previously and then get the noise of the enemy fire coming through the fuselage around us it was amazing that nobody other than the rear gunner had been hit. But anyhow, as I say, having jumped then I lost contact with all the other members of the crew. The plane carried on going down. Losing height quite quickly . In quite a short time I saw the trees sort of rushing towards me. Which really was an exaggeration because the parachute was open. And I crashed in to the top of trees and I sort of went down through the branches and the canopy of the parachute of course got caught up amongst on all the tops of the tree. It turned out that I had landed in an orchard of some considerable size. The trees must have been fairly old because they were tall. And I came to a sudden halt in the harness. The canopy of the parachute spread over the tops of the trees and we were swinging and in the darkness, I had no idea how high I was above the ground. It could be inches. It could be feet. Anyhow, I sort of gathered my thoughts and I thought — I tried feeling about with my feet, swinging a bit but it did no good. The only thing to do is just to press the lock on the parachute harness and see what happens. So, I did and I fell. About twelve inches fortunately. It could have been several feet but certainly I was very lucky and as I say I fell about twelve inches and landed on my feet quite comfortably. The harness was left swinging in the breeze there and the instructions are to pull the parachute and its accoutrements to the ground and bury it if you can. Well, there were dogs barking close by so I thought — I tried and pulled it and of course the noise of the branches breaking and crackling and what have you set them off barking so I thought well this is no good. So, I stopped that and they stopped barking. Anyhow, I tried again a moment or two later to do it rather quietly but it was no good. They heard it and they barked again. So, I thought I’d leave it. So, I gathered myself together and thought, ‘Right. Let’s get away from here.’ So, do you want me to go on in the same vein? Ok. I was in what appeared to be an orchard hence some of the trees and I saw that I was next to a hedge at the edge of the orchard so I went through it into a field which ran down hill to a degree. Yeah. It was a comfortable slope down and I got out of the orchard and the adjoining field and I became aware, with dogs barking, there was a farmhouse close by. So, I thought, well I’d keep away from there, for some reason or other. I didn’t know where I was even though I was the navigator we had made so many change in course in the battle with the German fighter that I couldn’t be sure to within ten miles where we were. Perhaps even more. And down the slope and through a hedge and there was a road which also ran further on downhill so that’s what I took naturally rather than climbing. And having sort of gone past a building, a house of some sort on my left as I was going down the road with five or six people standing there looking towards the target area which was a bright light in the sky. I just walked past them and nobody said anything and I then realised, having gone another hundred yards or so that I was walking north. I thought, is this a good thing? And I was resolved that if I was going to go north I’d got a coastline up there and how the hell was I going to get over that? All I could go to would be Denmark which I could walk around to I suppose — which wasn’t going to be any help. And I couldn’t get to a neutral country that way so it was, the alternative was to go to either Switzerland or Spain. They were both south of me and I didn’t think that it was going to be much good going to Switzerland because you would then be interned. And so I set off on my walk and crossed country largely and that night I suppose the shooting down had taken place somewhere around about half past ten, 11 o’clock at night and so I was in the early hours of the morning and I had time to get away from the place where the parachute would eventually be found and also, with the plane going down it was going to hit the ground before long. And I got myself on to a track which rose slightly and when I got to the top I could see a fire about a mile and a half or two miles away from me which was obviously was our plane which had hit the ground and already being alight it set the whole thing on fire. So, I couldn’t guess what had happened to the other people in the crew. I had no means of contact. So, I thought, ‘Right. This is it.’ And fortunately, the sky was clear less and I could pick out the North Star. From the North Star I could get myself an angle of somewhat south westerly direction and I thought, ‘Right. This is the way to go.’ So, I picked up my marks and started walking. Strangely enough I hadn’t gone very far when I heard somebody else rustling around in the field. They’d got some sort of crop. I don’t know what the crop was but it certainly had shrubbery about knee level so it could have been cabbages. It could have been anything else. Anyhow, having heard somebody else moving in amongst it I stopped and knelt down so that I wouldn’t have a, anybody wouldn’t, sort of looking up wouldn’t see me so I knelt down and the other person walking, they stopped too. And I thought, ‘That’s strange.’ Anyhow, it was all quiet for a minute or two so I thought, ‘Right. Try again.’ So I started my walk again which was in a general south westerly direction across country and I heard the other person start walking again. I thought well, I don’t know. I wonder if it’s a border guard or something like that that’s on a lookout. Anyhow, I just knelt down again and I stood out and the other person got fed up and I heard him walk away through the shrubbery or whatever the crop was. I never did find out for sure that it was another member of the crew. It could have been. But I didn’t think from the way the plane had been heading at the time that it was likely to be so but perhaps it was. I never did find out. And I continued walking and eventually I came to a roads. So I started to walk along the roads rather than stay on fields and what have you. It was easier walking and you got along much quickly. More quickly. At that time of the night there was nobody else about so I walked down the road. Always taking the direction of sort of south westerly. I had just the one thought in mind. Get to Spain. So, whatever came in between was just luck and we’d deal with it as we came. Got along. So, I continued in that. Walking along roads and what have you the rest of that night and then it started to get light. This is, I have to do something about this. I was on a road and there were some houses intermittently along the plots in between which were built on. Anyhow, I thought, well the thing is not to be out in the open view when it gets light. I was very fortunate. I went between two houses to the fields behind and I found several hedges and the like and there in one of them was a copse of trees on a bank sort of arrangement. And so, I thought, ‘Yeah that looks alright.’ So, I got in to the, under the trees. There was a lot of shrubbery at ground level so I found that if I sort of sat down on the ground then I was well hidden and what else was around me I didn’t know. All I knew I was out of sight to a degree. It was getting just that little bit lighter so I sort of sat down and I must have gone off to sleep. This was October and I suppose it was getting light around about 7 o’clock or thereabouts or perhaps a little bit earlier. Anyhow, I went off to sleep and I came to life again and I could hear traffic, to a degree. And I sort of poked my head up from my hideaway there and I could see that just beyond me there was what apparently was a farm road and it was being used by the workers to get to the farm or come away and go into the various fields. I was fortunate that I had this cover. I stayed there all the hours of daylight. I saw the goings on of the farm and it’s, I suppose somewhere around about sixish or a bit later it got dark and I thought, ‘Oh well, now’s the time to move,’ so I set off on my second night of travel. And this became the rule of thumb, so to speak, for the next two or three days. I did have some emergency rations with me and they were sort of supplied in an escape tin I think they used to call them. They had concentrated foods like chocolates and the like in there. There was a nothing that was superfluous. It was all good stuff and so I carried on walking at night for probably four nights after the initial one by which time I had got a fair way. I don’t know how much or how far I travelled at night. I wasn’t a rapid walker. I used a fairly steady pace but I kept out of sight during the daylight hours. It was always a problem just before dawn to find somewhere to hide for the next twelve or fourteen hours. And I was lucky. In one place I found a cave I suppose you’d call it. A digging anyhow in a bank. It was a cut-out area I could sort of get into and sit there and it was also protected by shrubs and bushes and what have you. So that was a lucky find and I did manage to keep going as far as the food was concerned by having the odd biscuit or what have you. Because I had additional items like that in my pocket. I had anticipated, I don’t know why or anything like that that this sort of event would happen. So I tended when we were on ops to put extra bits and pieces in my pockets and the like. Such as a few biscuits and what have you but it certainly was nowhere near enough. Anyhow, this went on until my last stay over daylight hours. After that initial part of my movements was in a town or certainly a large village centre and I’d spotted a house which had been bombed. It looked as if it had got fire bomb damage. The windows were blown out and the like. And I saw that as I was passing through this village. And then I hadn’t got too far, having got beyond that point and it started to rain and I found myself getting fairly wet so I thought right. I’ll go back to this bombed house. I went in there and it seemed to me it smelled rather as if it was dry and went upstairs and it certainly was. There was no windows in there but the roof was sufficient to keep the inside of the house dry. So again, as had been my practice then I did get a bit of sleep and when I woke up I found the village had come to life as other places had come to life and I sort of looked out of the, one of the window openings and I could see that I was what was obviously the centre road of a small town. There were shops and people going shopping there. And I thought to myself, ‘My goodness me. I wonder where I am.’ Anyhow, I made sure that I didn’t display myself at all but I stayed up on the first floor of that bombed house during the day. At lunchtime it got a bit dodgy because children came out of school and a couple of boys were having a little game down below on the ground floor. Anyhow, they got tired of that and they went off. Much to my relief. They didn’t, as far as I could tell, attempt to come up the stairs where I was on the first floor. As happened nobody else came in. It dried up during the day having rained during the previous night and when it got dark I went off. Most people had, the shops had closed by then, it was fairly dark. There was no lights or anything on display of course and I managed to get out of the small town without being picked up or noticed particularly because I was still in uniform and the only difference were that I had taken the badges of rank. I was a flight sergeant at the time and there was nothing else except my battle dress which I flew in. I had discarded the harness and what have you of the parachute as I previously mentioned and I went on out of town. Anyhow, I sort of ran in to the rain problem again and this time I got wet so, considerably so. This is no good. I’m short of food. I’m not performing too well and I’m wet and cold and dispirited. Anyhow, I turned around and I thought, ‘Well I’ll go back to the bombed-out house and dry off. And tomorrow is another day.’ Well, it didn’t work out like that. On the way back it dried up to a certain extent. I don’t suppose I’d actually gone much more than a mile. Two miles away from my hiding place and so I was heading back there. I went through another small village and I saw a house. It was houses on both sides of the road and I saw a house and I saw a chink of light up on the first floor which would obviously, would be a bedroom. And I thought, ‘Well there are people there. I wonder —’ I pondered the pros and cons of knocking and see if I could get some help and I didn’t know at all whether they were hostile or whether they would be friendly.
AS: At this stage you were in France.
GM: No. I was still in Belgium.
AS: In Belgium.
GM: Yes. And so, I was just on the right side of the Belgian Holland border so I didn’t have to get, get across the border there. So, I was still in Belgium. And –
AS: Did you have a compass?
GM: Oh yeah. Oh yes. Yeah, I had one. Yes. I had a button as a compass.
AS: They had — didn’t you have two buttons that were compasses?
GM: Well, I had one.
AS: One.
GM: Certainly, I had one but it was — no. it couldn’t have been a shirt button. It must have been the battledress button. Anyhow, I had one. It was part of a general sort of hand-outs of escape gear that we were issued with and I largely used the stars to make an initial assessment of where I was going. Certainly, where one gets sufficient light then the compass was a help and I got a feeling I might have had two. One was a fluorescent. I’m a bit hazy on that but there we are. So — oh yes. I was pondering as to whether to knock on this house or not. Anyhow, I came to a decision. It was still fairly early in the evening. It was dark. Blackout was being imposed and, in any case, so I went across the road and I banged on the door with the knocker. What have you. And this was completely unexpected by the people because the window above swung open and a man’s head poked out, ‘Qui est la?’ So I responded as best I could. My French never was very good. And I heard him grunt and the window closed with a slam and I heard him coming down stairs [knocking noise] like that with footsteps. The door swung open and there was this rather short man, pretty much the height that I am now I suppose [laughs] and he looked at me and I showed him my battledress and I showed him my wings and he didn’t say anything he just beckoned me in. And I followed him and he took me into their sitting room or whatever it was, where there was a fire in the room. It was a grate sort of arrangement. You know, a slow burning one which is on all the time and he spoke to me in French. I had sufficient to tell him that I was RAF and I could show him my wings and badges of rank and he seemed to be quite delighted. He pointed to a chair. And his wife came down and she sort of grasped the situation pretty quickly and they immediately fed me which after a fun five days was very acceptable. And I must admit with the warmth of the room and the food I dropped off to sleep. I don’t think it was very long but it was just enough to take the edge off of the tiredness. Probably half an hour or so. In the meantime, they had been busy and they got in touch with the local priest and I’d woken up and made myself as presentable as I could and there was a knock on the door. And they obviously were expecting him because the local priest did come in and he came up, beaming all over his face, put his hand out and said, ‘Goodbye.’ So I thought, ‘Crikey I’ve had my chips this time.’ Anyhow, he was very pleasant and we did get on. He had a fair bit of English and I had a certain amount French and we sat there and he sort of found out who I was and what I was which he was entitled to do of course and he said, ‘Tonight you come with me.’ I said, ‘Ok.’ I was in their hands. I had sort of appealed for help from them and he was the help. So we said goodbye to the man and his wife and I understood they had a boy, a son, who was about, somewhere around about the age of ten asleep upstairs and he was already in bed and asleep by the time I called on them. So, he wasn’t a complication. I don’t know what they would have done if he’d woken up and come down and seen me there. It would have been a very difficult situation for them. So, anyhow, it didn’t happen but I was aware that it could have done. And the priest and I went off and he came from another village so we set off at 11 o’clock, 11:30 at night during the hours when you’re not supposed to be about. Except that he, being the local priest, he had permission to attend his parishioners at any time when other people were supposed to be off the road. And we went out of the village, along some lanes and then came into another village and lo and behold there was the church. And he said, ‘This way,’ or words to that effect and we crossed over from the front of the church, about fifty sixty yards perhaps. I’m not sure. I wasn’t very good at guessing distances. And he took me into his home and despite the late hour his housekeeper was still up and she came and welcomed me there. I thought, ‘Crikey. They’re taking a chance.’ But it was alright and I’d already had something to eat and I’d had a drink and they now made sure I had some sleep. They took me upstairs. There was the bed. One of these typical continental beds which were all sort of like, ballooned. Puffed up. Anyhow, it was very comfortable and I got rid of most of my clothes and there we are. I slept on a bed for the rest of that night which was probably midnight or thereabouts when it started. And I was, I was awake moderately early but when I sort of got up the priest was already out on his rounds so I must have overslept a fair bit. And the housekeeper had me downstairs and gave me some breakfast which was nectar. There was nothing, nothing I could do other at that time. I just couldn’t go on out in broad daylight. I was in battledress. And eventually he came back, the priest came back and he had done his round. Whatever it was and he said, ‘You’ll be moving on tonight.’ Or words to that effect. And I said, ‘Oh that’s great.’ And we, yes, we spent a bit of time getting to know each other. He was a very pleasant man and we had some lunch. He said, ‘I’ve got other duties to perform so, ‘I’ll leave you but we have a visitor to come and see you,’ and he went off out. Where he went to or what he did I’ve no idea but shortly after he left then there was a bang on the door and a lady walked in. About forty I would say she was. Very attractive and her English was excellent. It really was. And so, the housekeeper brought, I think she brought us some tea in, I think. Something like that. We had a drink in anyhow. She then chatted to me for an hour, an hour and a half and it wasn’t just a chat just to pass the time. It certainly was, the intention was to find out I was on the level and not a plant of any sort. So I learned a certain amount about them and she certainly found out more about me. Anyhow, she said, ‘Well, nice to have met you. I’ll be off now to my family.’ And by 4 o’clock or so she was gone. She hadn’t been gone long and the priest turned up again. And I thought, ‘Ah they’ve passed me. They think I’m on the level. That I’m not a plant of any sort.’ And he said, ‘I’ve got a man coming to pick you up to take you into town.’ Or words to that effect. And so, we passed the time of day getting to know each other a bit more. [unclear] I seem to remember the name was. And sure, enough a man came in carrying a coat and he said, ‘The coat is for you.’ I thought, ‘Yeah that’ll cover my uniform up.’ And so we made our, said our goodbyes and we didn’t know when we would ever see each other again if ever but it was very amicable and I went off with this stranger. A little man. He was insignificant in attracting public attention and I hoped I was the same. And we went down. The bus came. We got on. And we’d arranged that he would get on on the front. I would then get on and stand at the back and he would be in the front and when we got to our destination he would get off and I would then follow him but getting off the bus on my own it didn’t — so nobody realised that we were together. So, yes, I was on the back of the bus standing up and we went about half a mile and we stopped outside some barracks and there was a group of, a small group of officers and there was, obviously one was the senior. I don’t know what rank he was. He looked as if he might be a captain or a major or something like that. Equivalent to that but the others all sort of stood to attention and saluted as he got on the bus which I thought was rather amusing. Anyhow, there was one or two other people got on the bus as well of ordinary soldier rank because they had moved away when the officer got on. And we started off. We stopped a few times. The bus got more crowded and we got more crushed up between each other in the back, top end of the bus. Back end of the bus. And there was I. I was surrounded by German soldiers and there was several officers amongst them. Anyhow, eventually we kept going into town and which was obviously a much bigger place than I’d been staying in that night. That was only a bit of a suburb. And I saw my guide, companion, get up. He didn’t look in my direction or anything like that. He just got up at the stop and got off so I did the same. I had to push my way through the Germans to get to the front of the bus, get off and he was waiting for me. And we just sort of nodded and we started walking off together and the bus went on its way with all of its people in it. We walked up a road which was adjoining the bus stop. You know, it went up. It was hilly but it wasn’t particularly steep and we stopped at the front of a house. There was, both sides of the road had houses down them and they were in — they were what we would call terraces. A terraced road. Terraced road. Perhaps dozens all in one continuous building — and rang the bell. The door swung open. There was a lady there and she looked at us and I’m certain she knew the guide. He’d done it before. Nothing was said. We just went in and she pointed us to go down the corridor and the man went away having collected the coat that I was wearing. They’d obviously got a use for it again sometime. So I was then back down to battledress. The ordinary grey one. And the lady said, ‘Come with me.’ She was quite good on English and she led me upstairs and pointed me to go into a room and there was a bloke standing in there in civvies. I looked at him. He looked at me and he said, ‘My God. Another one.’ And I then sussed from that that he was ex-RAF too which so it proved. Except that he was, he’d been a prisoner of war and he’d got away when he was sent out to a farm and apparently, he’d made no promises about not trying to get away or anything like that. They just sent him out and he went and he saw the opportunity and left. And I was now meeting him in somebody’s upstairs bedroom in a family house. And in actual fact the village which, the town which I was now in was Liege in Belgium. And it was quite busy. A lot of people. A lot of houses and what have you. And so, I stayed with this lady and it turned out she had a sister and the two, two ladies were part of an escape route operation and I’d struck oil. I really had. The man’s name. He was a sergeant or a flight sergeant. I’m not sure. He should have been a flight sergeant but he was already in civilian clothes so I didn’t find out for sure. Michael Joyce. And he was Irish and he was a regular in the RAF and he had done a runner from a prisoner of war situation and he’d got as far as this particular house and he was on the same jaunt as I was. Trying to get back to the UK. We travelled together right back to the UK. How much further do you want me to go?
AS: Carry on. It’s fascinating. Do you want to have a break for a minute?
GM: Just for a minute. Yeah. Yeah.
[recording paused]
AS: I’ve started so we’re now re-starting after a break.
GM: Yes.
AS: Ok. This is part — part two.
GM: Two.
AS: Yeah.
GM: Yes.
AS: Ok. Do, do carry on, Gordon.
GM: Yeah. I was saying it’s difficult to remember some names but perhaps they’ll come to mind. Anyhow, the two ladies, the sisters, lived in this house where I met Michael Joyce and we stayed there two or three days at the most. I have a vision of, on the first of the three days that I had there of going somewhere. I’m not sure whether I went somewhere or whether somebody came to me. Anyhow [pause] no, they came. They came to me and we went out in to the back, sort of a, you couldn’t call it a garden. It was a yard, I suppose, at the back of a house and he took some photographs of me and I understood that these were to be for the, an identity card which was necessary to have if you were travelling. And it didn’t take many minutes but he obviously did it as prescribed and I stayed there at that particular house two and a half days or thereabouts and in the meantime they prepared an identity card of sorts with my photographs on it. Ausweis or something like that I seem to remember they called it. And they had up to date pictures of me and I had, yes, another, something on. I wasn’t in the standard battledress uniform at the time. I must have put a coat of some sort on. This man went off and he said the photos would be ready shortly and so, it proved. They produced a document. An identity card, to my mind and sure enough there was my photograph like this, on this particular card. And so that was given to me so that if we were investigated at any time it would be there to support me. And we stayed on and we didn’t go out. We stayed in the house. Except perhaps we went out in the garden at the back. I say garden. It was little more than a yard but it was open air and then suddenly one of the ladies said, ‘You’re off today.’ And, ‘Oh. Right.’ She said, ‘After lunch.’ And that was it. This is what happened. We hadn’t got any accessories to carry. We just were there. I had, in the meanwhile, been fitted up with a suit which I kept for many years after that and eventually it was then passed on to somebody in the family. One of the youngsters who was growing up fast and he would be able to wear it for a short while and then he’d be too big for it but — which was rather strange because I was standing nearly six foot two at that time. Anyhow, it fitted well enough. And so, we came lunchtime on this day of departure from the safe house and we had some lunch and then there was a bang on the door and a youngish lady turned up. A mature lady to some extent. Forties I would say. It seemed to be about the working age of many of the helpers that we saw eventually. And we got our bits and pieces together. Michael — Michael Joyce and myself, we went downstairs and out in to the street and we had this lady with us and we just, in our borrowed clothes, ambled down as if we had got not a care in the world which, in actual fact, I don’t think we really did have. If we got picked up then we would be POWs. Prisoners of war. If a guide was with us the most likely thing that would happen would be — shot. So the danger really rested on the shoulders of the person that we were accompanying. Anyhow, we went down and to the bus stop. Waited for a bus. And we went off and eventually we came to a railway station. I used to be able to put a name to it. It’s gone at the moment. Anyhow, we found that when we got there that the train that we were expecting to catch had already gone. So, we went into the waiting room, sat down and we waited for the next train which was some little time. During that time then other people, passengers came and caught whatever trains they were expecting to catch. And then we started to fill up with soldiers. German soldiers of course. A couple of officers came into the waiting room where we were sitting and they were being a bit officious I thought. Perhaps they were on duty with the other ranks that had also arrived so that when the train came in then there was quite a large number of German soldiers waiting for it. We had a few moments in which we weren’t over happy with the closeness of the opposition so to speak but we acted like some, just ordinary civilians waiting for a train. And as I say, it pulled in and we went up and walked up along the platform a bit and got away from the military reserved section and got into the carriage and there was already some people in the compartment. And Mike and I got in and sat down and the lady sat between us and the other people in the compartment and the train pulled off and away we went. And it was to be, yeah, a period of some speculation in which we sort of had periods in our own, each of us in our own minds we thought well, are we going to make it on here or aren’t we? Because this was our first venture of travelling any space or any length of time with other passengers. There was, I was sitting next to the — on the side of the compartment and opposite me was a lady. My vision of her now is very slim but she was well, she was probably in her late forties, fifties and she had a basket or bag with her and after the train had been going for some short time she then started to unpack her bag and she produced a meal for herself. Bread and cheese and sort of stuff like that that she offered around. And I just refused with signs more or less. ‘Non. Merci.’ Mike did the same and I’m not sure what the other passengers did but I don’t think she had any takers. Anyhow, she sat there and enjoyed her meal and there was no conversation between us and them or between themselves — the Belgian people, at all. Eventually some of them got off and some of them stayed on and we started to run into Brussels. And [pause] now, I’m getting a bit hazy about that. I think we ran straight in. Yes, that’s right, it was and slowed down and made one or two stops until we came to the terminus and obviously that was — which was in Brussels. And we then, of course, had to get out. We just followed the lady to the pedestrian precinct which adjoined the station itself and we had to wait.
[pause]
GM: Now, I haven’t thought about this for a long time.
[pause]
GM: I’m sorry about this. Yes, we came out. Eventually we came out of the station. The lady and Mike and me. So where did we go? Can you switch off for a minute?
AS: Yes. I will. And I’ll, I’d like to change the battery on the machine as well.
GM: Yes, whatever you –
[recording paused]
GM: Let’s make a start then.
AS: Ok. So, part — part three then.
GM: Yeah.
AS: Yeah. Ok. Do carry on.
GM: Right. And so, we arrived in Brussels but having got off the train we found that there was nobody waiting for we had missed the earlier train when we started the day’s journey. And we were now in Brussels and we had to take alternative action with nobody at the station. Our lady, who was conducting us said, ‘Wait here and I will telephone through,’ which she did and she said, ‘It’s alright. We now have got a short journey to make,’ which meant that we — Mike and I and the lady in question got ourselves to the right stop to pick up a bus. Which we did. Outside the station in Brussels. We didn’t go very far but certainly it could well have been as much as a mile and we — the bus pulled up and the lady conducting us got off and we followed distantly so that we didn’t implicate her more than necessary. We crossed the road and she said, ‘It’s alright. We are now on our way.’ And sure enough, within quite a after a short walk we came to one of the roads with houses on both sides again as they were, most of them were in the town and she knocked on the front door of what was a flat or a type of accommodation. As is in most cases there the sleeping compartments were on the floor above. Like in a mini house. And the, having rung the bell, the door swung open and a young girl came and looked out and she looked somewhat as if she’d got no idea who we were which was quite right. She didn’t. But she spotted the lady with us and she said, ‘Oh hello auntie. Here you are.’ And we were then ushered into this house and we met the girl’s, she was practically a young lady by then, met the parents and we were well and truly welcomed. There was other members of the family there as well. We gathered that we were expected to stay there just as a temporary measure for the rest of the afternoon and early evening and that we would be moving on before it was bedtime. So, we settled down to a very pleasant sort of social event. And eventually we were told that it was time for us to move on and somebody else came and picked us, picked us up. I can’t remember for sure who it was but certainly we had a guide accompanying us. And we left the family regretfully because they had been good company to have us at such short notice. We get on a bus again and we turned towards the centre of the city and having reached what was obviously going to be our destination we got off and a short step away from the bus stop we turned sharply into an apartment block. And we had a lift to take us up. I’m not sure what floor we were on but I’ve a feeling it was the second floor up rather than the first. It wasn’t right down on the ground, certainly. But yes, I think it was that one. And we didn’t know what we were coming to but the gentleman who was with us — was it a man? Yes, now I’ve got a feeling we’d had an exchange. We reached a door. He put the key in and let us and sure enough this was a letted property and we were on an upper floor. And as we walked in to the flat he said, ‘Please don’t make any noise. We do have Gestapo people living just on the same floor here.’ Whether that was true or just to warn us not to not make much noise I’ve no idea but it certainly had the effect. And he said, ‘Right. Well you’re here for the night,’ and what have you. Breakfast and the like and I’ll see you then and with that he left us and Mike and I had the flat to ourselves. And yes we made use of it as directed and we, we spent the night there. At a reasonable hour then the following day then we got up and washed and shaved and dressed and by that time our guide who’d been with us the previous evening again arrived and he said, ‘Well, we have a little way to go.’ So, we hadn’t got any luggage with us as far as I can recall except for just necessary pieces of equipment for a shave and a wash and those sort of early morning preparations. And we went down and again we were on a bus. Just the three of us. That’s Mike and myself and the guide and we did get across a fair bit of Brussels towards a railway station and when we got there we found that we had plenty of time so we had a little while to, sort of, look around us and try and behave in the manner as the other people who were travelling and not to stand out. Eventually we were [pause] that’s right, when we got off the bus we then had a walk up a hill in a road which was divided to get one or two lanes. Wide lanes in each case and with a series of plants and trees down between them. So, it was like a two separate roads in the event as indeed it was because they were going in opposite directions to each other. And we went to a particular house. It was one in a whole row and going uphill so it was quite a pleasant road of changing levels. And we didn’t go very far before he, again we found ourselves knocking on the front door of a property. Here we were welcomed in and within a short time we were being introduced to the lady of the property. The name escapes me entirely at the moment but certainly it was a well to do establishment and we were taken upstairs and right to the top where there was almost an individual flat in which we could — certainly was set up for us. For two or three people to stay for a short period. And so we were then in quarters which certainly were very pleasant. We didn’t get out whilst we were there. We were in the premises all the time and the meals came and we found it very pleasant indeed despite the fact that we were in Belgium and it was occupied and it was a danger to the other people to have us there. But when the evening came we were very pleased to be invited downstairs to the lady that owned the property and lived in the property and we found that a meal had been prepared and we were having, what you might say, dinner. But it certainly was straightforward food such as was available for everybody there and we had a very pleasant evening. We even, in the latter part of the evening, had the radio on with the British tuned in, British radio tuned in and we heard the 9 o’clock news. What the news was I really can’t tell you. But certainly, we sat and listened to that just as if we were sitting at home and listening to it on the radio. We then had a very comfortable bed facing us and we were much pleased and appreciative of the owner’s entertainment. Not only food but radio and yeah, we swapped news and opinions for quite some little time. It was — it was in actual fact quite an enjoyable evening and undoubtedly we should at some time find the opposite but it was much appreciated. The next, the next day we were within the premises and I seem to think it wasn’t until the second day that we had the news that we were again moving on and in this case it was another train journey and we — our destination would be Paris which was quite a distance for us to take on in one hop, so to speak. Anyhow, they arrived and we had a very early breakfast and we left the house quite early morning and walked down to the international station. And we were accompanied by men we’d already met and we went on time. I seem to recall that it was still, it was still subdued light. I don’t think it was particularly dark but it certainly was not a bright, bright daylight. It was in between. Anyhow, so we got down to the departure station and took the train. There appeared to be — yes, an arrangement. The tickets were all organised for us and all we had to do was just be there. So we got on the train and whatever the time was, it probably was about 8 o’clock in the morning I would imagine or thereabouts the train pulled out of Brussels station and we headed with the end of that particular part of the journey was to be in Paris. This obviously was going to involve us in getting across the border between the two countries. The train was pretty well full and we did keep ourselves fairly quiet. There was a few undertone comments between Mike and myself and the time passed. And eventually the train slowed down and came to a halt and we did what everybody else did. We got off the train and it was — until it was empty. You got your baggage such as it was and we then followed the general flow of people down the length of the platform into a controlled area where we had to pass through the normal customs and border procedure. Mike and I were split up. He went through. And our guide, he went through. He more or less showed us to behave and what was necessary by example. Not by being particularly close to us but we kept an — I kept an eye on Mike and this bloke and Mike kept an eye on him for his own purpose. I was rather, sort of taken aback by having got through the first stage and turned in to a large room in which there was a number of customs officers. I think they were seated. And that was alright because I could see what other people were doing and I sort of followed the same procedures and I was taken aback by the presence of the German army with machine guns held at a ready — ready position. Not just slung over their shoulder or anything like that. But it was, they certainly were there for a purpose. Anyhow, I took my turn with the customs officer sitting down. He asked me a couple of questions. I’m not sure what they are now. In fact, I don’t remember for sure at all. And I must have been satisfactory. I nodded when it was appropriate and he sort of looked me up and down. He did his part of the job. I got my papers back and passed on. And I was asked if I’d got anything to declare and well, I hadn’t got anything other than what I was dressed up in really and with a, ‘No,’ they waved me on. And with a sigh of relief I walked out of that part of the building into the open air where there more soldiers but they were not interested in me and certainly I was fast wanting to get away from them. So we, Mike was up ahead of me and we were following and he was following the guide so I followed them and when we got back to the right carriage on the train which had pulled through from Belgium into France we then found our seats and sat there waiting until everybody had got reloaded onto the train and we set off. It was a little bit of conversation on the train but I sort of, I don’t think Mike expressed any sort of interest in what was being said and so we had a comparatively easy trip through France to Paris and which, we sort of pulled in and, of course, everybody wanted to move out at the same time so it was no good wanting to get on your way or get out and be unnoticed but just behave normally like everybody else was and take your time going through the station. All we had to do was sort of carry what little luggage or coats or anything like that that we had which was minimal as far as I was concerned. I got quite a reasonable suit on. And our guide eventually went up to a group of people and we just ambled along, one behind the other so to speak and joined, joined the group. There was the usual sort of semblance of greetings and the like. It was here that we were split up. Mike was associated with another person to me and I was to be the guest of a very pleasant man. Was it Monsieur — Monsieur [unclear]? Anyhow, we immediately struck up a sort of accord and he was a typical Parisian and before long Mike had gone off with his particular new partner and I with mine. We went down into the Underground and he did the necessary purchasing of the tickets and what have you and I think we were [pause] we got off the, the Metro at a place known as Sevres Babylone and eventually got up to ground level and we then were in one of the main parts of Paris and we went through a number of streets and he said, ‘Here we are.’ The gentleman I was with had good English really and certainly better than my French which was handy and we came to an open sort of window. Near the front door and sitting at the window which was open, it being quite a nice day anyhow, was a lady and she recognising my companion and nodded. Looked at me. ‘Bonjour.’ We passed through the front door into the block of flats and there was a lift close by and we were way off up to the top very quickly where, having got out, and just a short step and we were in one of the flats at the top of the house and I was being introduced to Madame [unclear] and who was the wife of my leader, so to speak. And I stayed there with them for a couple of nights. Perhaps it was three. I’m not sure off-hand at the moment. I would have to perhaps see if I’d got a record of the days spent there. They were a charming Parisienne couple and I was [pause] the only thing was that they didn’t have two bedrooms so that I spent the one or two evenings I had with them I slept on a long sort of chaise longue piece of furniture in the sitting room. So that, they’d got quite decent accommodation but certainly not a second bedroom because they didn’t normally use one but certainly, during the war, they had quite a number of people who stayed there like me. They slept on the couch and it was very, very pleasant indeed. And I seemed to remember that the gentleman was an insurance agent as a means of being a family and earning a living because there was quite a number of callers who came. Obviously, they were all known to Monsieur [unclear]. And they didn’t hide the fact that I was there and with, one or two of them spoke with me during the, during the short business visit. So it wasn’t kept a secret. And on one particular day Monsieur [unclear] and I went out after breakfast and we were going to a circular walk I suppose you would call it. Whatever. Anyhow, we left the house and we did visit various places in Paris. Even some of the well-known high spots or historical spots. And the churches as well. On the way around we had to cross the Seine and we got nearly half way across when we met, coming towards us, a priest and it so happened that Monsieur [unclear] had some connection with this priest in the work of the church and so, we stood on the bridge over the river and chatted to him for a few minutes. And the priest was left in no doubt as to my identity and we finally shook hands and he went on to the south and we went on across the river up to the Arc de Triomphe and we went down the main road from there for quite some way. The Champs Elysee. And when we got to the appropriate point we turned off to the left, back over the river and back to what I can now, would now call lodgings and it was a half day, sort of outing which was most unexpected and most, most interesting. Whilst I was staying with them I did meet a number of other people and on a couple of occasions on different days then I was taken around the corner in the road there and into another block of flats and there up on to one of the upper floors and was introduced to the lady of the house and she had Mike as her guest and so that we did maintain contact. Mostly when we were in Paris. It was very pleasant meeting these people and they seemed to enjoy bucking the German presence there by really taking on quite a risky job of having escaped RAF people pass through their premises and through their lives.
AS: Can I, can I suggest that —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gordon Mellor. One
Creator
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Andrew Sadler
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-06
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMellorG151006
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Gordon Mellor grew up in London and was interested in aviation. He volunteered for the Air Force and trained as a navigator in Canada. On his return to the UK he and his crew were posted to 103 Squadron. Returning from an operation they were attacked by a night fighter and shot down. Gordon baled out and landed in a tree. When he freed himself and landed on the ground, he set off to walk and by tracking the North Star, set off towards the general direction of Spain. He hid in a number of places during the daylight until after a few days he was inspired to knock on a door. He found he was in Belgium with friendly people who started the process that would lead to him being escorted through an escape line from Belgium to Paris and eventually home.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
Canada
Great Britain
Spain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1942-10-04
Format
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01:54:50 audio recording
103 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
crash
de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007)
evading
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
navigator
observer
Operational Training Unit
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Lichfield
Resistance
shot down
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/553/8819/PMellorG1501.2.jpg
ec53d3c84b8db787d307d49e498fe698
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/553/8819/AMellorGH160817.1.mp3
35ebeb2be6c6e7e0510e47aa5e5abf1d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mellor, Gordon
Gordon Herbert Mellor
G H Mellor
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Mellor, G
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with Gordon Mellor (1919 -2018, 929433, 172802 Royal Air Force). He trained in Canada as an observer and served as a navigator with 103 Squadron. He was shot down over Holland in 1942 but evaded capture.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-06
2016-06-07
2016-08-17
2016-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Let me just start off with the introduction.
GM: Sort of introduce the -
CB: I’ll start you off.
GM: Order.
CB: Yeah. I’ll start you off.
GM: Yeah. Yes.
CB: Ok. My name is Chris Brock bank and today is the 17th of August 2016. I’m with Gordon Mellor in Wembley and we’re going to talk about his life and times in the RAF and afterwards. So, Gordon, in practical terms, what do you remember about your earliest days?
GM: My earliest days were, shall we say, from birth to five years old and I do still have a firm memory at the, at the age of two, two years of falling down in some land behind our house and breaking a leg so I was sort of done up with plaster and what have you for some little time at that early age. The rest of the youth was, I should say, ordinary. I went to a local council school and stayed there for quite some years. This was a convenient house, convenient to our house of about seven or eight minutes’ walk so that I have in actual fact spent most of my lifetime in this area which is known worldwide as Wembley. Following the days at the council school that I first mentioned I was not a success on what was commonly known as the eleven plus but I seemed to pick up speed and I successfully entered the excellent technical college where the main subject matter was related to engineering and I must have stayed there nearly three years at that particular place. Then I made great friends with a man, well he wasn’t a man he was a boy like myself but his name was Kenneth Clarke. I mention him because he was, has always been until recent years quite a prominent member of my friends. When I was close to seventeen then I got itchy feet I suppose and I wanted to get out to work rather than spend the last three or four months in school so I looked around and obviously I needed to have some strong ideas about employment and also on subject matter. I decided that I didn’t want to just be a clerk in an office or an engineer of the varying quality so I decided that I would take a job to start with and for the first couple of years of being at work then I was connected with the estate agents and property subject matter and after that I then became a little more concentrated on surveying and I changed direction away from property valuation and the like and became the chartered quantity surveyor. The charter didn’t come until after the national service which will come to light in due course. For this purpose I scouted around and took one or two approaches to surveyors and eventually I picked up what I thought was a suitable proposition and by that time I suppose I was getting near to eighteen, nineteen and I found this particular work to be of interest so I then took classes in, at evening time and I was in this situation taking the class at London Polytechnic. Oh goodness me I’ve forgotten the name of the place. It’s top of Regent Street, near Charing Cross, not Charing Cross.
CB: New Oxford Street.
GM: Oxford Street. Yes. Just north of Oxford Street. So and I I found it interesting and there was a wide range of matter to become familiar with so this then certainly brought me to the period I would say was 1937/38 and the international situation indicated that there was going to be quite a conflict. The only question to my mind and a lot of other people was when? How soon would it be? Well we did find out. 1939, and the entry in to the armed forces as a, shall we say, can’t call it a pastime but it became of interest and we tried to get into the volunteer reserve. Well as I was looking for quite a high qualification in, I was doing anything from four to five evening classes a week at Regent Street Polytechnic. Anyhow, time passed and we found in September 1939 that war was forced upon us and I hadn’t been successful in getting into the volunteer reserve. I’d been doing a day’s job and most of my spare time was in study and the like. So it wasn’t until calling up papers came in the beginning of 1940 that I was brought into the services. The air force had a strong representation in aerodromes around North London. Northwest London. Hendon obviously was one of them and I had tried to extend my knowledge of the air force as, just as a matter of relaxation so when the calling up papers came and I had volunteered for the RAF and in view of my familiar approach to maps and charts and things like that I applied for service in the RAF. Much to my delight we were going to have to do something we might as well l do something that was a principal interest so I joined the RAF as an AC2 as I think most people did unless you were a university graduate or the like and this was in the early days of 1940. Well, I, how far do you want me to go on?
CB: Keep going. That’s fine.
GM: We’re alright are we?
CB: Yeah. Very good.
GM: Ok. I was, oh my goodness me, where were we going, oh yes I was called up to Uxbridge depot and I spent the first week there, joined with about forty, I would say, about forty other youngsters. I wouldn’t say that everyone was a youngster. There was quite some mature men who were also being called up and having gone through the initiation and the approaches to a service life we were then posted up to a discipline, sorry -
CB: Initial Training Wing.
GM: Indeed. Initial Training Wing. That is the correct name of course and we found that it all, it went well on the whole and we came through the first three months and there was still no sign of being posted elsewhere so we had the traditional seven days leave until we came back and all in all we saved an extra few weeks before there was a vacancy for another training course and we were posted. This was an initial training wing and we survived the entrance and the doings and also we were useful in doing odd jobs when we were given the opportunity to train for a post as navigators in Canada. So having had an introduction to navigation in this way we were posted up north to a depot on the coast and from there in Scotland we got onto a boat which was not much more than a cross channel ferry and we went up to Iceland, stayed on the boat and then transferred immediately to a much larger vessel. I used to be able to quote the name of the boat, maybe it will come to mind in a minute but we put, went from Reykjavik in Iceland across to Canada and on the way there we were accompanied by a number of other boats and although we were going quite fast then certainly it wasn’t for the slower vessel at all. It was quite a quick trip. We landed on the east coast of Canada and in no time we were being marshalled off of the ferry boat and I used to be able to -
[Machine stopped]
CB: No. No. That’s fine. It’s my way of just covering it then. So we’re restarting now and we’re in Canada.
GM: Yes.
CB: Just going back a step.
GM: Yes.
CB: So the intriguing thing is the number of places that were training and some were slightly different but you went to Port Albert.
GM: That’s right.
CB: Which is on the Lakes.
GM: Yes. Yes.
CB: So what did you actually do when you were there? How did the course go?
GM: Well it was a mixture of navigation instruction and as that progressed so we did flying exercises which followed the increased knowledge that you gained in the classroom.
CB: Right.
GM: So we were still having lectures on navigation problems and requirements at the end of the first three months much in the same method of training as we were at the beginning of that period. It was the subject matter that improved.
CB: Right.
GM: Then we had the period after that of several weeks and then we were posted to the bombing and gunnery school.
CB: So when you were doing the navigation training, you’re at Port Albert.
GM: Yes.
CB: What’s, what’s the geography like there? Are we in the prairies or are we in a built up sort of area.
GM: We were in Ontario.
CB: Yes.
GM: Which is a major farming area I would have said. It was, we were about twelve miles out of the town of, I think it was Goderich.
CB: Yeah.
GM: And there we learned the techniques and what have you and flying from the, that aerodrome we put what we had learned in the classroom, so to speak, into practice.
CB: Yeah.
GM: In the Ansons which were -
CB: You were in Ansons. Ok
GM: Available. The class was split into groups of twos and I think there was somewhere around about twenty four of us in groups of two all flying in the, at the same time so it looks, rather looks as though we had something like twelve aircraft allocated to half days so to speak. There was a course flew in the mornings and one in the afternoons. And later on of course then we had night time flying as well.
CB: Ok. And when you went to gunnery what were you flying there? How did they run that?
GM: Yes. We had Fairey Battles and still two people in the gunnery position. One chap at the back with the, sort of, fire power and the back towards the back of the plane towards the tail and the second pupil, if I can call us that, the second pupil was stuck on the seat in the fuselage so he didn’t get much to see during that exercise except down below and it was mainly map reading and exercises such as that.
CB: Because this is a three crew aeroplane.
GM: Yes.
CB: And you could change over could you? The roles in the air.
GM: Oh the navigator and, the two navigator’s, yes they could swap over. There wasn’t a lot of room in the plane but certainly the gunnery position as you remember it was the back of the compartment which the navigators occupied was sealed, it wasn’t exactly sealed but it was shut off from the pilot’s position. You couldn’t pass from one, from the front to the back of the aircraft. The pilot had sole use of the front half of the aircraft and the two trainees were in the back half and I thought there was a radio operator on there as part of the permanent crew. Same as the pilot was.
CB: Ok. And what did the gunnery training comprise?
GM: Oh mostly machine gun fire on a target being towed by another aircraft and there was, yes, there was that and this is so long ago and I haven’t really talked about it for a long time. Yes. Certainly the two trainees they each got a spell on each flight so that the time wasn’t wasted at all. You were either doing the exercises which were laid out to be done from the rear gunner’s position or you were map reading or other sort of interesting exercises looking down through the bomb, sort of window, I don’t know, hatch I suppose you would call it which was patent glazed, not patent glazing it was a glazed opening and I think in normal times it was, you could lift it and get into the aircraft in that position.
CB: Ok. So you’ve got two people who are learning gunnery in the plane.
GM: Yes.
CB: They hit the target. How do you know who has shot what?
GM: That’s a good question. They, they must have had a means of telling either the first or the second amount of gunnery which was being tested so -
CB: Was it coloured ammunition?
GM: Well that was hovering in the back of my mind but I’m not oversure.
CB: Ok.
GM: I thought, I seem to remember on occasions we did have coloured ammunition but I can’t be sure that it was at the early part of your gunnery training at all.
CB: Because the plane was only towing one target.
GM: Exactly, no the plane, the other plane was -
CB: Yes.
GM: Tow, perhaps there was a non-identifiable and perhaps there was also another half which was indicated in some way. I should imagine it was sort of a paint arrangement that –
CB: So the course you were on is the observer course in those days.
GM: Yes, yes.
CB: The third aspect of what you were doing was bomb aiming so how was that done and in what aircraft?
GM: To my mind it was a bombing and gunnery course so that one was sort of mentally passed over to the people who specialised in bomb aiming and there was a certain amount of exercising and also [jockeying?] the targets. How they separated it out is a good question because I can’t, I haven’t got the, I shall have to look it up.
CB: Well we can come back to that.
GM: Yes.
CB: So –
GM: I’m sorry but there are now a number of details which have now -
CB: Yeah.
GM: Slipped my memory.
CB: That’s ok. So we’re in 1941.
GM: Yeah.
CB: You went out there in April.
GM: Thereabouts.
CB: You were there during the summer. How many months were you doing that training?
GM: April. So including the toing and froing?
CB: Yeah.
GM: So April. April, May, June, July, August, September, October. That’s about it yeah. Seven months.
CB: Ok. And at the end of -
GM: We had a visit by the New Zealand premier. Not that that’s of any particular significance other than the fact that we did get a visit.
CB: Because they were training New Zealanders as well.
GM: Well he was on a diplomatic tour of something and it was just one day that he came to Port Albert and for whatever it was and he, yes he chatted with us and what have you, it was quite interesting.
CB: At what stage were you presented with your observer’s brevvy? Flying badge.
GM: Oh what a good question. I can remember that. Now the question is what stage? [pause] I should have done some homework on this.
CB: This was before you returned to Britain was it?
GM: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. That was immediately before we left. We had the parade and we all got our wings. Most of us had the second uniform suitably fitted out with the, with the badges and we left the same afternoon so it was right at the end of the visit. Of course we left that evening, went to, started on our way back and as long, they didn’t want to know where we were going or anything like that except that they gave us a date to be at the port on the Atlantic coast so that we were travelling at any old time that suited us and we -
CB: Right.
GM: We were given, let’s see yes I think we were probably given five days or something like that.
CB: Yeah.
GM: To get ourselves from the station where we were got our wings and overnight I think we got ourselves to Toronto. It was a hundred and forty miles. It didn’t take long on the, on the train and of course we were all packed up and ready to go and probably another two or three days calling in at Montreal and returning to the Canadian port.
CB: Halifax, Nova Scotia.
GM: Halifax. Was it?
CB: Was it?
GM: I should have got myself a map out.
CB: Don’t worry. So you then take the boat via Iceland.
GM: No. No.
CB: You returned.
GM: We came -
CB: No.
GM: Straight back.
CB: Straight back.
GM: Yes.
CB: Ok.
GM: It was only on the outward journey we went to Iceland.
CB: Ok.
GM: So we came back and -
CB: Then what?
GM: Having landed in the UK we then transferred from the boat to a train and we were taken down to Bournemouth. There was a reception centre there and we then started the familiarisation of being with the RAF and not with the Canadian Air Force. There were differences.
CB: Because you’d been fair weather flyers in Canada. Now you were -
GM: Indeed.
CB: Coming to be foul weather flyers in the UK.
GM: Well certainly the weather was more, shall we say, a part of our daily life in Canada the weather was consistently good. There’s no doubt about that and, it wasn’t all that bad in this country but certainly it was, had to be watched and of course it got colder. It was much further north in Ontario which was south of us yes. And that was a different feeling about the whole thing. It was, you were getting near to being or realising that there was a war going on. In Canada it was like peacetime and back home then of course as soon as you were given leave then you returned home and many of us came from London area and of course we experienced the air raids. That was just part of it. From that reception centre and the familiarisation with English service we were posted to the Operational Training Units and as far as I was concerned that was at Lichfield and I won’t say everyone who had been with us in Canada was on that posting but certainly a fair number of us were so we were maintaining the same contacts as we had for quite some time which was very useful. The visit, as I say, to Lichfield was interesting. The familiarisation with the weather conditions was certainly on our minds far more than it had been under the rather stable conditions of Canada and of course when you did get leave you could go home, be with the family which was a great asset. The training at Lichfield lasted a fair time. Some, some months. It got extended. Now it’s here it was all much more serious in our, in our minds. I mean the next stage was to be as a squadron so it was essential that you got as much experience as you could while you were still in a training situation.
CB: What was the first thing you did when you got to Lichfield?
[pause]
GM: I think it was normal reception procedure. We had quite a pleasant reception on returning to this country and to go down to Bournemouth but you went up to this place and we were on for a fortnight or maybe for three weeks we were not on the main station but we were in the familiarisation situation and as the accommodation became available in the, training establishment which we would occupy for a month or two at OTU. The weather was a bit of shock I admit. It certainly was a lot cooler and flying in the blackout was an entirely new venture as far as we were concerned. We certainly had to get used to that through the winter of course. Then it doesn’t get light until what half past seven getting towards 8 o’clock and certainly it got dark in late afternoon. Five, 6 o’clock at the most so it rather altered our lifestyle but it was good to get into the area where things were beginning to happen and we recovered our enthusiasm I think. After that first two or three weeks we were then posted on to the main station at Lichfield and we then started flying.
CB: Ok let me just interrupt a mo. So you arrive on your own but to fly you have to be in a crew so how did that work?
GM: Ah. This is the point we were, came from various places and we had a period, some of this period was on the earlier three weeks and you just lived with the other youngsters, they were, and we sorted ourselves out into crews so that you’d found some likeness in your thinking and in your, the type of youngster that was there and the crews came together sort of voluntarily. It didn’t always work and you had to make changes providing the instructors there had decided that it was better if you worked with somebody else. So it was mostly a voluntary crewing up I would say and where there was a need for, to get a move on so to speak if you didn’t crew up voluntarily which started usually with the pilots. There were two pilots if I remember rightly and a navigator and then of course, as it was Wellingtons then, we had a couple of gunners and the bomb expert. So that was a rather peculiar setting as we had a bomb aimer as well. There were two of us who were capable of carrying on with that role but we sorted ourselves out and the course progressed and as a crew then you started taking some of your spare time together and, or all of it just depending on how you hit it off and the crews gradually gelled into a working unit. I don’t recall in my particular connection whether there was anybody who couldn’t work with their opposite number.
CB: So when you were on the OTU what were the main tasks preparing you for the next stage?
GM: Well there was the conversion of course from the aircraft that we’d used in the States, not the States, in Canada and pilots were having to do what was necessary and instead of flying Ansons then they were having to change onto Wellingtons which was quite a difference I understand but as far as the navigators were concerned whilst the pilots were doing their conversion then we were flying. I suppose it took about a fortnight, three weeks we were flying Ansons and doing navigation exercises. Of course the British countryside and the British weather and the like whilst the pilots were converting on to the bigger and heavier aircraft.
CB: So you’re all in the Wellington. You finished the OTU. Then what?
GM: We had a bit of trouble with a crash. Whilst we were at Lichfield yes we took off for a morning exercise, the power units started giving the pilots trouble so we converted er completed the approach to the circuit and we were on the way towards the aerodrome on this first, I’d better just start that again. This was a particular period after the training and we took off and the idea was to fly around and go over the aerodrome. That was your start of the exercise so you noticed the time and the details and you went off to do the exercise but in this case we got half way around on the first circuit and we started to get in to trouble with the engines and we couldn’t maintain height so before completing that circuit where you note the time and set off on the exercise as we approached that part of the flight then we lost height rather drastically and we made a wheeled up on approach, crossed over the railway line and a station and lobbed down into the fields on the east side of the railway and buckled the plane up and the pilot was injured so we he was carted off to hospital and the rest of us, who were in the crash positions when we hit the ground, got a few bruises and a shake up and we’d lost our pilot. So we then had a short period and a new chap, Australian, as all those particular pilots were. Another Australian to be the first pilot. So we changed crew a bit and that was that. We survived, survived the crash. Two or three day’s leave. Probably it was a week. I don’t really remember now but we had a short period off and when we came back then we were then reintroduced to the training and we continued until we got to the end. At the end of that particular training then we did a first flight to Germany and back as an introduction I suppose to what it was going to be like. We had a, yes a satisfactory introduction ourselves with the new pilot and we were quite happy as it went. The other chap, who was the Australian, Don Jennings, he was off, I think he had a broken leg. I wasn’t sure but because he got out of the plane and he got a few yards from the nose of the aircraft and he collapsed. I think he’d got a broken leg but I can’t swear to that. Then we were posted having satisfactorily done our first visit over enemy territory and went on leave and we didn’t get our actual place of posting to, at that time. I think it came by letter. I can’t be sure. It’s a detail that doesn’t matter but we were posted as a crew. I’m not even sure whether anybody else was posted with us. We were posted to Elsham Wolds.
CB: Didn’t you go to the Heavy Conversion Unit first?
GM: No. Not, not to my knowledge and this was, this was in early ’42.
CB: There weren’t any.
GM: There weren’t any.
CB: No.
GM: As such.
CB: Right. Ok. So straight to the squadron. What was the squadron?
GM: 103.
CB: And what were you flying?
GM: Wellingtons. 1Cs.
CB: Ok. Yeah.
GM: We were, as a crew given, so to speak, to an experienced pilot there who was already there and got a number of trips under his belt and we then started flying together and getting used to each other’s abilities and moods I suppose. The, we did a bit of flying for a short period and then we were put on our first trip which was a thousand raid on Cologne. We went on all the thousand raids.
CB: Ok. So what was that like?
GM: Spectacular. On sort of a, I mean a thousand aircraft and they got everybody over in about ninety minutes. I think that was, I can’t quote you for sure about this. That’s the general impression that I received. We did two. Was it? And then there was, there was a break and then we did, I think there was a third one but that’s just a detail that doesn’t really matter. And then it was time to be posted and we said, ‘It starts now.’ Yeah. So, and the -
CB: So how many raids, how many operations did you do from, with that, with 103 from Elsham Wolds?
GM: Seventeen but after we’d done ten then we changed aircraft to Halifax. Four engines. I didn’t fly Lancasters at all.
[pause]
CB: Let’s stop.
GM: We went -
CB: No carry on, go on.
GM: We were allocated to an experience pilot of course when we got there and so we had two pilots. Like us the trainee who we hoped we were beyond that stage by now and also a chap who’d been with the squadron for some time so that your early flights were all done with somebody who knew the score so to speak. Essential. Anyhow, the period we started flying seriously of course was, as I say, with the first thousand bomber raids which were oh about a third of the year away in 1942 and we converted on to Wellingtons. No. The -
CB: On to the Halifax.
GM: Halifax.
CB: When was that?
GM: That was roundabout July. We were there in time to do the thousand raids and our score trips was around about ten I would imagine when we changed over and we started operating the four-engined aircraft. That took us through September and in to October and on our seventeenth which was in to the Ruhr. Anyhow, that was a disastrous raid as far as we were concerned. We bombed the target, came away from it, we were only about ten thousand feet. We found at that time between ten and twelve was moderately safe for our purposes anyhow and on the way out from the target we were found by an ME110 and he just sort of hung on to the back of us about four hundred yards back and so it raises the question well what do you do about it. And so we did. We opened fire with the rear gunner and the mid upper and that didn’t please him at all so he then opened up and his accuracy from his point of view was pretty good. Anyhow, he hit the rear gunner, the bulk of the crew of course were up towards the nose end and the ammunition was zinging around. You could see it, some of it inside the fuselage. How I didn’t get hit I don’t know. Anyhow, we caught fire in the two inboard engines. The outside engines in both cases seemed to survive but we weren’t going to be able to get the fires out. There was no way about that. It was too fierce so the skipper said, ‘Bale out.’ I was in the nose of the aircraft in the navigator’s position and I was sitting on top of the front escape or entry position and skipper said, ‘Everybody out,’ and so I got up from my seat, folded it back, picked up the door or the flap whatever you’d like to call it, the hatch and turned it over and dropped it out of the bottom of the aircraft. Nobody was going to want it so and then with the parachute on I did what they said. Get out. So I sat down with my legs dangling out of the hole and gave myself a push and I slid out. I don’t know what height we were. This all happened very quickly and I fell some distance. Pulled the chute. That was the decision and it seemed a very short time, having just got my legs down that I was crashing through branches of a tree from top downwards and came to a rather ragged halt and swinging there I could hear a dog barking and I was just swinging in the harness. I couldn’t feel how high I was. It was pretty dark. So in the end I turned the parachute harness to the on position if that’s the right way and/or the off perhaps and banged the harness catch, the harness flew away and stayed up in the branches of the tree and I dropped. Fully twelve inches I would say and I was hanging there and in then the next second I got my feet on the ground. Wonderful. Started the dogs barking a bit more. I thought well there’s a farmhouse down there, I’d better get out of the way so I left the parachute and the harness up in the tree. It was probably, what, fifty sixty feet high, seemed to be a very high tree and so somebody got the parachute silk if they managed to get it down. I felt, made my way out of the foliage of the hedge in to the next field and made my way down a slope. A hundred or so yards or so of passing down a field and then I went through a hedge and dropped down on to a road and it fell away to the right so I had a quick look up at the sky and I could see where north was so that told me that’s where the North Sea is and I hadn’t got much of a clue where we were because we’d travelled quite a bit and in the plane as it burned. I went a short distance down the lane there and went past three or four people standing outside of a house and I ignored them. They were watching the raid which was going on in the distance away to the east so I hadn’t travelled very far even though it seemed a long time for us to still be within sight of where the raid was being, taking place. Complete muck up of timing as far as I was concerned but there we are so I continued walking. I was going north and decided that wasn’t a good thing and there was a lane turning off to the left and sort of a rise and so I thought well the only thing to do was to get oneself down south. It’s not going to be any easy to get across the sea around Northern Belgium and, or Denmark or anything like that so I decided that I’d make for Gib. It seemed an incredibly long distance but it seemed the best thing to do so I went up this side road, it rose and when I got to the top of the rather meagre rise I could see that the plane had crashed about a mile, a mile and a half away and it was burning away merrily. I had no idea what had happened to any of the other crew having jumped and been, ’cause I was told to get out of the way so everybody else could get out and I obliged. So anyhow I then decided that I’d have to go to the general area of Spain so I turned south taking my bearings from the stars and set off. I walked all that night. This was only about half past ten in the evening, it was quite an early raid and so I travelled a good few miles. I didn’t meet anybody at all. I travelled on the roads and in some cases I crossed fields and the like and just with the general aim of going in a south-westerly direction. I’d got a compass in my gear and that was it. I walked until the light began to show. In that time I’d done quite a lot of road walking and there was one part of it which went due west so I followed that through and then as it was beginning to show signs of getting light I thought, now to do, what do I do now? Anyhow I was approaching a village and there were field on the right, just ahead of me was village buildings started so I thought well I’d better go around the back so I turned right, went past the property there onto a footpath, followed that around and the light was getting a bit stronger so I thought well I’ve got to had to hide somewhere. So I was dead lucky. I found a farm road and I could tell that there was buildings down the end of it and I thought perhaps that was the farm itself and anyhow the clump of trees with some undergrowth and the road towards what I thought would probably be the farm went past it so I got myself into the clump of trees with the yes with a few thickets growing there and so I was out of sight and I went to sleep. When I woke up I could hear people talking and it was daylight and I carefully sort of took stock of my surroundings and workmen were going, of some sort, were going along the, that approach road that I had spotted and they obviously were farm workers because they seemed to go down to the farm and then they started their working day and there was a, the whole, there was a hillock. Couldn’t have been much more than that as part of where the trees where I was sheltering under was part of that so, and I could hear people working at the top of this rise sort of. I’d say that was it. Then I sort of got here into the trees and there was a rise with the trees in a clump and up on the top there where the actual farmable roads were, farmable fields were then there seemed to be a number of men doing whatever men do on fields in the autumn but I could hear them chatting away and talking and fortunately none of them came into the copse where I was trying to keep myself out of sight and that, so the days lasted and sometime just before it was getting, beginning to get dark then they all knocked off and they went past and went to the farm. Presumably at the end of their working day. So I thought well there’s nothing here for me and I didn’t have much in the way of, I had a bit of chocolate and a couple of toffees or something like that in my pocket so I sort of started off as soon as it was dark and went, followed my general trend in a south westerly direction and this went on for something like four days. Maybe it was five. I don’t know. I lost count somehow or another. I certainly covered some fair old ground in amount and each time as it began to get light then I had to find a hiding place and the most exotic one I suppose was I finished up in the middle of a village. It had got a High Street and had a bombed house there. It was beginning to get light so I took a chance on it and I assumed it was a bombed house. The windows had gone and it looked as if it had suffered some sort of damage. It may well be that it was just bad housekeeping and it had got deteriorated in the normal course of events. Anyhow, I sort of went around to the side entrance of the house and I saw there was a water butt with water coming into it, rain water. So I got my first drink for some time there and whilst I was standing there drinking the water in this tank I heard some footsteps crunch and just down about fifteen, sixteen feet away on the front of the, this house there was a road and somebody in uniform stopped and I could see them looking around and then they started looking up the alleyway where I was standing by the water butt and I froze. And after a couple of minutes he went off. So I thought that’s, that’s not much good. Anyhow, I went into the house and it was dry. I went upstairs and there was no furniture in the house. It was empty and it had been, considering that it was, I thought it might be a bombed house but I didn’t see any other bomb damage perhaps it was just general degrading of the property. Anyhow, I bedded myself down on the first floor in the front bedroom and I’d been up all night walking and what have you so I lay myself down and had a sleep and when I came too I could hear people chatting so I just stayed still where I was. I heard somebody, some boys down below and one of them started coming up the stairs and fortunately he gave it a second thought and went back so he didn’t see me and as it was the school lunchtime period they all disappeared and I was left. I could look out of the window and see people doing their shopping and what have you in the shops close by. I kept myself well down so that I wasn’t spotted at all and eventually lights of some sort began to show and then they had the blackout going of course and once the people had got off the street there didn’t seem to be many people occupying the pavements during the blackout period and I thought, time to go. So I did. I got downstairs, out of the house, there was nobody about much so I just made my way out of the property in the general southwest direction and away we went. Well eventually, I, one of these midnight walks and what have you I got soaking wet in rain and I’d been walking about an hour or so I suppose and so I thought, oh well the best thing I could do is go back to my last place and dry out. I didn’t want to get through anything. I hadn’t got any food so I was rather low mentally on that. Anyhow, I did turn around and started walking back and went through in the return direction, a road that I’d already been along and I saw the property which was showing a light. It shouldn’t have been but it was so I stood on the opposite side of the road and watched the house. There was no movement or anything like that at all so I thought well the rain had stopped and I was beginning to dry off, feeling in a better mood and so I went across, banged on the door and obviously I startled the family and a man put his head out, ‘Qui es la?’ So I thought well my French is no good so I said, ‘RAF. Air force.’ And then I had to repeat that and he got it because he didn’t say anymore just slammed the window, I heard him running, coming downstairs, he opened the door, he looked at me and I showed him a couple of my badges on my uniform. I mean I struck oil. That was the beginning of making contact with the resistance.
CB: I’m going to suggest we stop there for a mo.
[machine paused]
CB: So we’ve got to the stage where the man has left you, let you into his house.
GM: Oh yes. Yes. And his wife came thundering down the stairs to see what was happening. And they were very kind. They were very kind. My language was not very good but we managed to make ourselves understood with each other and they produced some food for which I was infinitely grateful. I’d gone through quite a few days without. And then there was a bang on the door and in walked a local padre and he’d obviously been made well aware of my nationality because he started to speak to me with a few questions in English. I don’t think he got a great deal but enough for us to settle with each other that we were both on the same side and he said, ‘You’re coming with me.’ So I thought, that’s, you know, that’s good and we left the couple who had fed me and watered me and we set off and we walked to the next village and we went into the manse. I suppose that’s the proper name for it. Anyhow, it’s where he lived and worked and I was introduced to his housekeeper. She obviously was used to seeing strange people and she gave me a grin and shook my hand and that was it so I was then sent to bed so to speak and waited. Yes. We come, oh wait a minute. Have we got away from the first house I called in?
CB: The house where they, you called in and he was upstairs and came down and opened -
GM: Yes.
CB: And let you in.
GM: Yes. Let me in and they -
CB: Fed you.
GM: Fed me. That’s right. And the local priest then came and he collected me and we went to his home.
CB: Right.
GM: That’s right. Yes. Well that was temporary. I don’t, I must have stayed there overnight. I think they were, they were a little bit perturbed because they had a young son so they sort of kept me out of sight whilst, before he went to school otherwise it would have been all around and during that period on the following day I had a visit from a lady who was in the business of getting people away under these sort of circumstances and so I was taken to another village and I stayed there for a short while. Subsequently men came and we chatted a bit and I went with him on a train journey. [pause] And where did we get? I’ve lost my thread a bit.
CB: We can stop.
GM: Sorry.
CB: We can stop a mo.
[machine paused]
GM: But I banged on the door.
CB: Yeah.
GM: And they let me in and they fed me and I then went with the local priest.
CB: So you went to his house, you said.
GM: Yes.
CB: And then -
GM: And then, having stayed two nights. Yes. I think we can, stayed two nights.
CB: Ok.
GM: I was taken by, to be honest I don’t know who the bloke was there. No.
[pause]
CB: Well it doesn’t matter -
GM: Anyway.
CB: What his name is. If we can just -
GM: No.
CB: Yeah
GM: After the second night sleep there I was collected and escorted into -
[pause]
GM: I’m getting muddled up now. This is ridiculous.
CB: Let’s just have another break.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gordon Mellor. Three
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-17
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMellorGH160817
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Gordon Mellor grew up in London and hoped to become a quantity surveyor when he was called up. He volunteered for the Air Force and trained as a navigator in Canada. On his return to the UK he and his crew were posted to 103 Squadron at Elsham Wolds. Returning from an operation to the Ruhr, they were shot down by a night fighter. When Gordon baled out he landed initially in a tree and then managed to find a hiding place and then began his experience of being on the run. Finally he managed to make contact with the Belgian resistance and the Comete line who began the process of guiding him home.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
Canada
Gibraltar
Germany
Great Britain
Spain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
Format
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01:28:00 audio recording
103 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
crash
crewing up
de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007)
evading
Halifax
Me 110
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Lichfield
Resistance
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/553/8818/PMellorG1501.2.jpg
ec53d3c84b8db787d307d49e498fe698
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/553/8818/AMellorG160627.2.mp3
ef968aa3b9b455b4792ca4b2012f76c9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mellor, Gordon
Gordon Herbert Mellor
G H Mellor
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mellor, G
Description
An account of the resource
Four oral history interviews with Gordon Mellor (1919 -2018, 929433, 172802 Royal Air Force). He trained in Canada as an observer and served as a navigator with 103 Squadron. He was shot down over Holland in 1942 but evaded capture.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-06
2016-06-07
2016-08-17
2016-08-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: This is Gary Rushbrooke for the International Bomber Command Centre and today, the 27th of June 2016 I am with Flight Lieutenant Gordon Mellor at his home in Wembley, London. Thank you, Gordon. We’re in Wembley, London. Was you born in London? Are you a —
GM: Oh yes. I —my place of birth was about, I should say, two miles away from here. Also, in Wembley but on the southern borders of the town. Whereas I’m living here in the northwest.
GR: Right. And what year was that Gordon? What year?
GM: Oh that was —
GR: Roughly.
GM: Well there’s nothing rough about it. I can tell you the moment almost. It was 1919. 1st of November being the actual date. And I don’t remember the situation but —
GR: No. [unclear]
GM: My memory does go back to about my second birthday or thereabouts.
GR: That’s incredible. Do you have brothers and sisters?
GM: Oh yes. I had a brother. He, strangely enough, was seventeen years older than me so he was born round about 1920, no, not 1920. 19 —
GR: 01 or 02.
GM: 02 or 03.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
GM: Or thereabouts. Yes. But at the same time of the year in actual fact except that he was a few days later than me on the actual date.
GR: In November.
GM: Yes.
GR: So, you grew up in Wembley. Went to school in Wembley.
GM: I did go to school in Wembley until I was about thirteen. My interests were more practical perhaps than other people so I went to a technical college over at Acton at that age and I stayed there virtually three years. And my school friend I found was living within a half a mile of where I lived at that time and we chummed up and carried our relationship forward into the war years and eventually then his sister and I decided to make it a go and we were married during the war years.
GR: Oh right. So, after college, if you was at college in Acton for, what was it, three years?
GM: Well it wasn’t quite, it was a senior school.
GR: Senior school. Yeah.
GM: It wasn’t a college as such. No.
GR: No. And you left there to go and work.
GM: Oh, I had several jobs. Mainly connected with, I suppose, the building industry. My father and brother and other members of the family were all connected with that industry. And what was I going to say? Oh yes, my early experience was in offices of estate agent’s and people who were on the, I can’t say senior side because I was only a youngster then but the prospects were good.
GR: Yeah.
GM: As a surveyor. So, I eventually started work with of firm quantity surveyors in central London. And after the war I returned to that profession and qualified with the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors.
GR: Very good. But obviously you’d started work and war was on the horizon.
GM: Indeed.
GR: I presume in September ‘39 you were still at the chartered surveyors were you? Were you?
GM: Oh yes.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yes. I was working for a private organisation. It’s only in the post-war period that I went into the public service.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And certainly in the last, what —thirty five odd years or so I worked with the Greater London Council.
GR: Right. When war broke out did you sort of decide there and then to join up or —?
GM: Well, I was interested in aircraft from a young person.
GR: Yeah.
GM: It was the ‘in’ interest shall I put it of the boys who lived and went in the same road as I did and also went to the same schools.
GR: Right.
GM: And we did get a strong interest into flying and the RAF in particular.
GR: Right. Was that an interest? Was it, was it Cobham’s Flying Circus or —?
GM: No. No.
GR: No.
HM: It was RAF Hendon.
GR: Which was obviously nearby isn’t it? Yeah.
GM: Yeah. And also there was a private ‘drome as well. My goodness me.
GR: Did you used to go up to Hendon then and watch the aircraft?
GM: Yes. We used, yes, we used to go over to Hendon and get to a position round where you could see what was going on. Although we weren’t on their ground but we were as near as we could get.
GR: To watch it.
GM: To watch what was going on.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And there was also another aerodrome close by where [pause] the name of it escapes me at the moment.
GR: It doesn’t matter. [unclear] So, it was —
GM: De Havilland’s I think had got a factory there, in that area and their aerodrome was also used.
GR: Not London — not London Colney.
GM: No.
GR: There was something there. I think that was the test place. So, it was an easy decision to volunteer for the Royal Air Force.
GM: Oh yes. Yes. Indeed.
GR: Yeah.
GM: It was a main point of interest as far as us lads were concerned in that part of Wembley. Yeah.
GR: And did your friends join up as well?
GM: Yes. They either joined up or called up.
GR: Yeah.
GM: In the early days of war. But they went to army or navy.
GR: Navy yeah. So, so can you remember where you joined up? Were you one of the ones who went to St John’s Wood and —?
GM: Where did —?
GR: Did you mention earlier you did some training at Uxbridge. No?
GM: Yes I, yes, my first real connection was when I was called up in 1940.
GR: Right.
GM: Early in ‘40 and I reported to RAF Hendon as many other youngsters did and that’s where we started.
GR: Yeah. Which was quite fitting considering you lived nearby.
GM: Yes. Yes.
GR: That’s quite good isn’t it? So, yeah.
GM: Riding on the train and then out to where Hendon Aerodrome was. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Did you do your training in this country? Or was you sent abroad?
GM: Yes. In actual fact there was a bit of a blockage in the training period and we were drafted out to various places. When I say we, there was about forty of us who were all called up together. And we were then posted out to various places and I was sent to [pause] Yeah. I haven’t thought about this for a long time.
GR: No. It doesn’t matter. ‘Cause what did you decide to train as? It wasn’t a pilot was it? It was a —
GM: No. I —
GR: Navigator.
GM: I was keen on the navigation. So I, yes, I volunteered for that and I was accepted for that purpose. Yes.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And —oh dear. Oh dear.
GR: It doesn’t matter. Obviously training. You know, I’ve spoken to a lot of veterans and I think training followed the same —
GM: Pattern.
GR: Pattern all the way through.
GM: Yes. Yeah. We had as I say, several months on general duties.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Because there was, seemed to be a bit of a blockage. More volunteers than they could cope with.
GR: Cope with.
GM: So we joined up and we did general duties in many ways.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And in my case then I was posted up to Norfolk and I was on ground defence for quite a time.
GR: Oh right.
GM: And during that time, of course, you did pick up a lot of general knowledge about living in the air force and it was all good useful stuff.
GR: Yeah. Good. So, training, yeah ran its usual pattern when you started. And then —
GM: Yes. I suppose so.
GR: Where did you get posted to?
GM: The first real training as far as flying was concerned was at Aberystwyth which was an ITW.
GR: Yeah.
GR: And we did the course there and a bit more because there was still something of a blockage.
GR: Yeah. Right.
GM: And from there we then were posted to the Midlands as a short stopping off place and then by boat.
GR: Yeah.
GM: We went via [pause] where did we go? Reykjavik in Iceland and then through to the east coast of Canada.
GR: Right.
GM: Once there then things got moving and we finished up at Port Albert which was a training aerodrome in Ontario. About a hundred and forty miles to the west of the main cities.
GR: Yes.
GM: In that area.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. So, I presume life in Canada was slightly different to life in Britain.
GM: Well. Yes.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yes. It was. It was somewhat freer I think.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And of course, not having to cope with the blackout. That was quite an interesting period.
GR: How long did you spend in Canada, Gordon?
GM: About seven months I think.
GR: Seven months. Yeah.
GM: There was the basic navigation course which was twelve weeks. We then had a week’s leave and then we did a four weeks course [pause] to follow on the navigation.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And having completed that successfully as a group, we’d all been together since we arrived in Canada, we then went to bombing and gunnery school.
GR: Right.
GM: In another part of Ontario. By the Lakes. And we spent at least six weeks there. I have a feeling we overran a little bit.
GR: Yeah.
GM: But then it was time which you received your promotion as a sergeant and we had parade and this happened. There were a number of, a group of, I think it was about forty of us all together in two main, sort of, groups. And some of the [pause] in each group were granted immediate commissions and the others became NCOs.
GR: Right.
GM: Having got the passing out parade done then we were given tickets and travel paraphernalia and told to arrive in the east coast of Canada. We arrived close by and embarked to come back to the UK.
GR: Right.
GM: So, yes, I thought that we were treated very adequately. Being — having jumped from, what rank was I [pause] oh dear. Oh dear. Something below corporal up to sergeant.
GR: Leading aircraft — LAC1?
GM: Leading aircraftsman. How right you are. This is dragging me into the part that I —
GR: Seventy five years of, yeah, remembering.
GM: Yeah. Yes.
GR: LAC2. LAC1 and then you probably went to sergeant.
GM: I did. Yeah.
GR: And then flight sergeant.
GM: Then flight sergeant.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And then yes. Warrant officer.
GR: Yeah.
GM: By that time, it was a couple of years. Three years on.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And from warrant officer I was commissioned.
GR: Yeah. So, before you got to the rank of warrant officer you were back in the UK.
GM: Oh yeah.
GR: Did you get posted direct to a squadron or was it a Heavy Conversion Unit?
GM: No. It was an extension of our flying experience. Mainly to get experience in flying in blackout conditions.
GR: Oh yeah.
GM: Because in Canada all the lights were on.
GR: Yes.
GM: So, as you soon as you got into the UK air then it was black.
GR: And of course navigation would be quite reasonable with all the lights on and if you knew where cities and towns were.
GM: Well yes. Indeed. There was no problem at all.
GR: Yeah. So, pitch black England.
GM: It was. Yeah. Well, of course you were young and adventurous so you attacked the problem with vigour and got used to it.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Which is what one had to. So, Lichfield was the place that I went to to get the flying experience in the dark.
GR: And was you with a crew then? Did you have your own pilot or —? Was it —?
GM: Shortly after that then we did crew up.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And there seemed to be quite a number of Australian pilots running parallel with us. Most of the navigators, I think, were British. May have been one —oh yes there was an odd one or two Australians as well I think. And just a way of processing us for making up the numbers from other groups of navigators at the same stage as we were. And so, we went to Lichfield and whilst we were climatizing ourselves to blackouts in general then of course we were gaining experience as a crew because we were given the opportunity to arrange, sort of, the membership of the crew during social hours.
GR: So, this was on Wellingtons. So —
GM: It was on Wellingtons.
GR: Was there about —was there five of you? I think it is on a Wellington. Yeah.
GM: Yes. I think it was five at that time.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. Because you would have had your air gunners with you as well. With you at that time.
GM: Oh yes. Indeed.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yeah. It was largely done by meeting each other in the mess or during working hours. They had a flight headquarters and also during flying. You got to know who the people you got on well with and it didn’t take very long to get a crew together.
GR: To get together. Yeah. So where did things move on from training? I believe you were —I wouldn’t say rushed but you —
GM: No. We weren’t rushed. We did well.
GR: Yeah.
GM: In actual fact that post-training period abroad, we did broaden our skills quite considerably with the experience we were getting flying around. And we did eventually do a first raid on enemy territory. It was sort of a single effort in which we flew as a crew on our first operation.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And it was a comparatively easy operation.
GR: Yeah. Did they give you something like leaflet dropping or mine laying? Or something like that as a —?
GM: Oh yes. We dropped leaflets on this particular occasion.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
GM: It wasn’t — they weren’t a great deal on this occasion but at least we felt we were doing something towards the war effort.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
GM: Yes.
GR: And that’s while you was at the Operational Training Unit.
GM: That’s right. Yes. Having done that single initial trip.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Within days it was postings were announced. And I think we all were all sent home on leave for a week or something like that. When we came back then the postings took effect. We went to the squadron.
GR: Yeah. And that was 103. Yeah. 103 at Elsham Wolds.
GM: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yes.
GR: And I believe, was your first operation then the thousand bomber raid?
GM: Oh yes. The first thousand bomber raid. As far as I can recall.
GR: Yeah.
GM: I think it was the very first one.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Where did we go to?
GR: I’m trying to remember. Would that be Cologne?
GM: Yes. It would be.
GR: Essen.
GM: It would have been.
GR: Cologne or Essen.
GM: I think it was Cologne.
GR: Cologne.
GM: Yes. Yes.
GR: And I think that was in a Wellington wasn’t it so —?
GM: Yes. That was in a Wellington.
GR: Yeah.
GM: We had converted from flying Ansons in the early days at IT. ITW. Yes.
GR: Yeah. Initial training. Yeah.
GM: Whatever it was.
GR: Yeah.
GM: When we got back from Canada that we then converted on to.
GR: Yeah. And obviously, I mean, I know you then converted from the Wellington on to the Halifax.
GM: Yes. Indeed.
GR: Heavy bomber.
GM: That was in the summer of 1942.
GR: Yeah. So, and then leading on to what obviously was an eventful night. How many operations did you actually fly Gordon? Can you remember? Roughly.
GM: I think I was on my eighteenth.
GR: Eighteenth.
GM: Yes
GR: Yeah.
GM: I was looking forward to getting, going towards the end. We had thirty to do.
GR: Thirty. Yes. Yeah.
GM: And it wasn’t to be.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Which was a great pity.
GR: And those eighteen were with the same crew? Were you —
GM: Oh yes.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yes. Yes.
GR: So, I don’t know whether you can tell us a little about yeah, obviously I know you were attacked by a German night fighter.
GM: Well what it really boils down to — the raid followed the usual pattern and except that when we came out of the target run and dropped the bombs and we were turned away for the return trip back home and we were jumped by this German fighter.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And he just hung around in the background so — I didn’t see him. I was in the front of the aircraft so, but from the rear gunner and the other people who could look backwards he stayed probably something like five hundred yards behind us. He didn’t do anything that was aggressive or anything like. He just sort of sat there. And we did, with the captain making up his mind then, we did talk about what we should do and eventually we said, ‘Well let’s try and scare him off.’ Bad decision. Because we opened up on him from the four gun turret in the, at the rear and also there was a turret —
GR: Mid-upper.
GM: Mid-upper turret. Yes. And that amounted to six machine guns in all. Four with the rear gunner and two mid-upper. And that annoyed the [laughs] chap who was following us I’ve no doubt because having received a blast from our gunners he then opened up and he must have been very good because he really gave us, I think it was —I think four bursts I think we experienced and in that time he set the two inboard engines on fire. He also hit the rear gunner and he missed the rest of us by very small margins because you could see the tracers going past.
GR: And through —
GM: And through.
GR: The machine. Yeah.
GM: Yeah. Yeah. And it set the two engines so named so, we were burned and the pilot put us into a dive to get to a lower level and we were flying at about twelve thousand feet I suppose. Certainly, no more. We found that to be a relatively good level to make an attack and, on this occasion, it didn’t pay off out, pay off in our favour as it had done in the past. So, we were shot down, in plain English. And got down to quite low levels before the order was given to abandon aircraft. And I, in the front of the aircraft was standing on the escape hatch. So all we had to do really was to move ourselves. That’s the radio operator, the front gunner and myself. And just behind and above us was the pilot and his —
GR: Flight engineer.
GM: Flight engineer.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yeah
GR: Was you the first out?
GM: Yes. I was standing on the escape hatch. And they were, having made the decision, the general impression was get out. Don’t hold anybody up.
GR: Yeah.
GM: So, I got the trap door up and I dropped to sitting on the side of the aperture with my legs dangling and I knew the others were anxious to get into that position so I slid my rear end off the edge of the opening and I was sucked out by the slipstream. And I didn’t pull my cord of the parachute until I was well away from the aircraft. And probably somebody else would have got out in the same time. And I eventually did do so but I wasn’t in the air very long. Just time to look around and there was the light and somehow or other it seemed to be yellowy to me. I don’t know what colour the night was there but I’ve got this yellow feeling in my memory so perhaps it was from the flares or something like that burning as the aircraft got closer to the ground and the fire took greater hold. Anyhow, I pulled the rip cord and came to a jarring stop almost, I suppose. And within a very short period — seconds it seemed, so it probably was that I found myself crashing through the branches of a tree. And I was left swinging with the parachute and the harness stretched out above me spread over the foliage of the branches of the tree.
GR: Yeah.
GM: So, I couldn’t touch the ground so I thought well I’ve got to do something. So I twisted the knob on the release on the parachute harness and the straps sort of sprang apart and I was free to drop — which I did. To my surprise I fell about a foot. No more. I mean, if you can imagine.
GR: Yeah.
GM: You pulled the cord and as soon as you were in motion then you stopped.
GR: You were bracing yourself for a bad fall.
GM: Indeed.
GR: And you dropped twelve inches.
GM: Yeah.
GR: Good.
GM: It couldn’t have been more. It was so quick. And so, I got myself out of the tree and dogs were barking around and I could see there was a building close by which I thought, well, sounds like this might be bit of a farm. In that style. I dumped my harness and what have you there. It was largely still attached to the silk of the parachute which was stuck up in the tree and I left it there. It was no good. I wasn’t going to be able to pull it down. It would make too much row in any case. I did try but I gave up when I heard the creaking and the crashing and the scratching on the branches. So, I walked my way down to the, what I thought might be a road and having got through the hedge it proved to be a road going, yes, downhill. Not very steep. So, naturally, I took the road down. I didn’t go up and I found that I was walking, from the observation of the North Star, I found that I was walking more or less in a northerly direction and as I felt then at the moment then that was the wrong way to go ‘cause I would only be walking to a coast.
GR: Was you in France Gordon? Or in Belgium? You know, when you landed.
GM: When I landed.
GR: Yeah.
GM: I was in, on the border of Belgium and Holland.
GR: Belgium and Holland. Right. Yeah.
GM: So, it was about as far as where you could get without being in Germany I suppose.
GR: Yeah.
GM: So, anyhow, I thought well it’s no good staying here. You’ve got to find somewhere to hide for daylight and it was still before midnight. So, I walked off and having made the discovery that I was heading to the north I turned on the first immediate turning and went up a road to the west and I did see where the aircraft had crashed. Having been left. So, I thought —right, well south is going to be over that way so I went that way and continued to do so for the rest of the night.
GR: So, you walked through the night.
GM: Yeah. I don’t know how many miles I travelled.
GR: Yeah.
GM: But I walked through the odd village certainly.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And the odd dog did bark.
GR: So, in the morning as the light’s coming up did you meet anybody or decide you had to get some sleep?
GM: Yeah, well I was still on the road. I was going, from my observations, then I realised I was no longer travelling to the south. I was travelling to the, what’s, south, east, west —
GR: West.
GM: I was travelling to the west along the road and I thought well there’s houses there. I wonder what is around the back somewhere. It was beginning to get light so, I turned off the road into a field path. And eventually I found a copse on the farm and I got myself in and got in to the undergrowth so that I was hidden although there was a road close by. Or a path of some sort close by. And went to sleep. I woke up mid-morning or thereabouts and I could hear people moving about in the field and I found I was in this copse on the side of a rise and there was men working above me in the field there and there was people passing along the road which was in front of this copse in which I was hiding. So, I just kept out of sight as best I could for the morning. The same in the afternoon. I examined what I’d got in my pockets which was edible. There wasn’t much. A few little bits of chocolate and what have you and I stayed there until the farm began to close down for the night and the light was well on its way to disappearing. Leaving it dark. So I just got up and I’d seen the traffic in the roads close by so I went, turned around, turned across the grass that wasn’t very long. Yes, it was grass of the field. Went through the hedge and down the road. Heading more or less in a southerly direction. And I proceeded where the road was going west and south and I took a variety of roads passing through whatever built up areas there were. And there were a few villages. Not big. That one could walk through.
GR: So, did you walk through the night again?
GM: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yes. I walked through the night. In the early part of the night when I went past a group of houses very often there was a coffee shop or a beer place or whatever it was where people had gathered for their evening’s entertainment. I was being tempted to go and find out whether there was any help there but I resisted that and carried on until I had to find another hiding place on the following morning. And this was repeated. Staying hidden as best as possible in the hiding place which I’d chosen in the dark actually. And as soon as it got anywhere near dark I was on my way.
GR: How long did you do this for before you came into contact with anybody?
GM: Well I saw people. People came.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Did come fairly close to me without seeing me.
GR: Yeah.
GM: When I was hidden in the bushes and things like that. I think it was about the fifth day.
GR: Fifth day.
GM: Fourth or fifth day and I —
GR: And did somebody approach you or did you approach them?
GM: No. No. What happened was I’d been staying in the middle of a village. In the bombed house. Or an empty house anyhow. It wasn’t in very good nick. I imagined from what I could see that it was a bombed-like. During the daytime there in this particular place the shops across the road and on either side and what have you was, were mixed. In some cases, there were shops and there was living quarters there as well. Houses and flats. And people were going about their normal daily business.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And I, up on the first floor occasionally poked my head up and looked out of the windows and I could see these people dressed normally and carrying shopping bags and things like that and they went. They went. The scariest part of it was at lunchtime the kids were out of school and I don’t know whether they had their lunches at school or whether they had them at home but there was a number of them about and two or three of them came into the house in which I was on the first floor. And they messed around a bit as kids do in an empty place and they started coming up the stairs and then something happened. I don’t know what happened but it took their attention. Perhaps their playtime had gone and they didn’t get right up to the top of the stairs so, I was left on the first floor there unmolested. And I just stayed on there until it started to get dark. I can’t tell you what time it was that it got dark but this was October.
GR: Yeah.
GM: So, evenings were getting dark fairly early and the number of people out on the street of course diminished as soon as it came what would have been, in the old days, lighting up time.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And the streets became largely vacant so I took a chance. Went downstairs and got the general direction in my own mind to go south and west and I got out of the old bombed house on to the main road. I just walked through. Eventually I got out of the town and I took where my fancy took me. In actual fact, I was aware of what the countryside was like and whether I was on open ground or whether I was passing through places where there was copses of trees and what have you but I stayed on the road as much as possible. It was easy walking.
GR: Yeah.
GM: That’s what I did. And I had to find, at the beginning of the next day before it got light I had to find a hiding place each time. And the countryside was quite interesting. It was quite hilly and I did come to a river. Wait a minute. No [pause] I’m not too sure where that was. I certainly came to the odd railway so I had to walk along the ordinary road and went across the railway bridge to get to the other side. There were people about. A bit. But it was as good as being, walking on your own.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yeah. It was, it was quite good. So, I walked overnight for the first four or five nights and got away with it.
GR: Got away with it. So again, when did you meet somebody or how did you meet somebody —
GM: Yeah.
GR: Who was involved with either the resistance or helpers?
GM: Well, I stayed in one town as I say.
GR: Yeah.
GM: I think that was probably the last one. Anyhow, I walked from that last town and eventually having sort of just taken the general south-westerly direction I found myself in fairly open country and of course it had started to rain. It had been dry all the time previously. And I got pretty wet. Ok. What do I do now? And it was no good sort of getting under a tree or anything like that.
GR: No.
GM: ‘Cause the summer foliage was disappearing fast and the branches were fairly clear of leaves. So, I thought well I’ll have to go back to the old place where I’d stayed the previous night which was a bit of a problem because it was some miles. Anyhow, I did go back and I came into a village and you needed a map because it affects the story to a certain extent. Anyhow, I got, I passed one of the villages which I’d come through and I saw a house on the other side of the road. There were houses around.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
GM: And I was walking down the main street. There was nobody about and looking across the road I could see there was a light in this house. It was surprising because most of the lighting was so subdued that you really couldn’t make any use of it. In any case it would have given one’s position away quite easily. Anyhow, I was in the middle of this village and I was quite amazed to see so much light from it. Anyhow, that was only for a short while but the house was still there and I thought there’s somebody obviously living there. And it took me some time to make up my mind but I thought I’m soaking wet.
GR: Wet, tired and hungry.
GM: Indeed. Indeed. Greater pusher to making up your mind.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And so, I went and knocked on the front door and there was no response from the door but the window flung out from the first floor. And just one question, ‘qui est la?’ Who is there? So, I tried to explain my position to this face up at the window. And I don’t know what he said but obviously sort of —wait. So, I just stood there and I heard him thundering downstairs so he’d still got his shoes on and this was about 8 o’clock in the evening I suppose. From my general recollection. And the door was flung open. And I think I said something rather crass like, ‘Je suis Anglais,’ or something like that. And he looked me up and down. Didn’t say anything. Just beckoned me in.
GR: Just beckoned you in.
GM: And I then followed him into a back room and he put the lights on. He gave me a good looking over and his wife then came downstairs. Whether they’d been going to bed or whether they’d got an upstairs room I don’t know. And so there we were. They sort of, I think they started to dry me off to a certain extent and they also had a, what we call a boiler, a solid fuel fire of sorts.
GR: Yeah. Fire.
GM: And so I’m sort of sat close by to that and his wife, as I say, came down and I tried to explain who I was. I showed them my uniform and the flying and the badge and they were very friendly. Anyhow, it wasn’t long before there was a knock on the door and in came a local priest. So, they’d got a message through to him pretty smartish. Mind you it was — the timing was such that it was now in time which nobody should be about except those who were in authority.
GR: Yeah. Curfew.
GM: There was a curfew.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And this man was the local priest. He’d got some English. He’d got a good lot of English. Anyhow, he understood what was what and his main words that he said was, ‘You come with me.’ So, I thought, well, ‘Great. And by that time the rain had finished and it was dry outside. Well I say dry. It wasn’t raining.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And having thanked the man and his wife for the help I came away with the priest and went and stayed at his establishment which was some walk away. And he was living there with his housekeeper and she was still up so it couldn’t have been so very late. So, she just sort of said hello, so to speak, and accepted that I was one of the opposition to the Germans. They had me in there and I don’t know — they gave me a drink I think. I don’t know whether it was hot or cold now. And a bed. That was the first bed I’d been in for some time. it was typical continental.
GR: Yeah.
GM: One of these great puffed up ones.
GR: It was a bed.
GM: It was a bed.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And it was in the warm. In the dry. And they were friends.
GR: And did you find out later were they part of the resistance or were they just somebody — did they put you in —?
GM: Oh, they were in the know.
GR: They were in the know.
GM: They were in the know. How active they were I don’t know but they certainly —
GR: You wouldn’t have known at the time but obviously you were at the beginning of the Comete line.
GM: Yes.
GR: To be passed all the way down.
GM: It may not have been actual Comete people but people who were associated with them.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And yes, I was then [pause] I made the contacts and went on and eventually with the result that I got in with Comete but it was no joyride having found them.
GR: No. No.
GM: As a matter of fact it was downright dangerous in places.
GR: Yeah. Because at the time I presume the Germans knew that something was, they knew airmen were getting down.
GM: Oh yes.
GR: They would have known of an existence of some sort of resistance movement moving them. How, can you remember how long you were actually from being shot down to getting through the Pyrenees how long were you —?
GM: Oh, three weeks or thereabouts.
GR: Three weeks.
GM: Yeah. Yes.
GR: And obviously you and your helpers would have been living on your wits all the time. Like you said it was dangerous.
GM: Yes, well I eventually —
GR: Probably more dangerous for the helpers.
GM: Oh certainly.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Certainly. Yes.
GR: As long as you still had your RAF dog tags you had some sort of security.
GM: Yes. Yes indeed.
GR: Yeah.
GM: But I did take other badges and things off so there was nothing to show for it. And then of course, the priest lent me one of his overall coats. I don’t know whether — he wasn’t as big as me but, so where he got the coat I don’t know but it certainly fitted really well. And I eventually got through to Brussels. From Brussels I got through to Paris. I got from Paris down to St Jean de Luz and from there through the Pyrenees. That was a long run. I don’t know how many miles. Thirty odd. And the —
GR: And this would have been the end of October. Probably the beginning of November.
GM: Yes.
GR: So winter was on its way.
GM: It was the end of October.
GR: Yeah.
GM: It was —I got down to the Pyrenees. I think it was the 19th of October. And got across and I then went down. Yes. Yes I eventually got down to — what’s the capital of Spain?
GR: Madrid.
GM: Madrid.
GR: Madrid.
GM: Yes. Eventually they, on the grapevine, they were told in Madrid that I was up there on their side of the border and so they sent a car up to take me down to the British embassy.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And arrangements were then made and we went from the embassy two or three days later and we then finished up in Gibraltar and they sort of were pretty careful about finding out you were on the level.
GR: Yes.
GM: And so, I then went down to the Rock of Gibraltar and eventually, a couple of days later I flew to the UK.
GR: So, you flew back. You didn’t — yeah.
GM: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And that was [pause] how many days are there in October? Thirty one.
GR: Thirty one.
GM: Well that was the night of the 31st of October and we landed down in Cornwall to book in and do whatever official things had to be done and then we were flown up to, now, an aerodrome near London.
GR: Croydon.
GM: No.
GR: Not Hendon.
GM: No. No.
GR: Uxbridge.
GM: No. Further out.
GR: Northolt.
GM: Further out. Anyhow —
GR: Yeah.
GM: We got a train in.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And reported in to whatever place it was. Up in town. Yes.
GR: And then I presume —
GM: I’m sorry. This is getting a bit —
GR: No. Gordon it isn’t and your memory’s very very good. And I presume you were then debriefed.
GM: We came up. We landed in the UK and then we, then came in to, towards central London.
GR: Yeah.
GM: We then, I was with other people. Then there was three, I think, of us. We hadn’t been in our escapes with each other at all. It was just whoever was [pause] happened to be, due to come, return back to the UK.
GR: Yes.
GM: On that particular day. Anyhow, as I say we landed on the first of November and we got, we then, with several hiccups we got up to London and Baker Street. It was a hotel which is still there.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And went in. And it had been taken over by the air force, and booked in and in the next couple of minutes we were asked a question. The question is, ‘Where do you live?’ And I said, ‘Well, my family live in Wembley’. He said, ‘That’s just down the road by train.’ So he said, ‘Right. You can go home tonight.’ So, I don’t know what — oh they gave me a pass, I think. Travel. Yeah. Anyhow, I got on the train in Baker Street along through to Wembley Central and I walked down the old road. The estate. Sort of. Which had been there for quite some time and I turned down the road, our road —Douglas Avenue after travelling down the Ealing Road which does lead one to Ealing still and I banged on the front door. Gave my mother nearly a heart attack I think. She already knew I was ok.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And so, I went in and I was home. And the 1st of November is my birthday.
GR: So, you was home for your birthday.
GM: Indeed. Well, the last couple of hours of it.
GR: So from taking off you spent what, four weeks. Got back four weeks later.
GM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yes. About the 4th or the 5th of October.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And I walked into home. Thousands of miles away I suppose you could say.
GR: Round trip.
GM: Round trip.
GR: A wonderful birthday present.
GM: Indeed.
GR: Going back to the crew, Gordon.
GM: Yes.
GR: If you don’t mind. I know your rear gunner didn’t make it.
GM: No. He didn’t.
GR: The other five members. Did they evade or were they taken prisoner of war?
GM: No. They were — those that were injured —
GR: Yeah.
GM: Were taken to hospital and they then became POWs.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And the others who were just banged about a bit the same as myself —
GR: Yeah.
GM: They were taken prisoner.
GR: They were taken prisoner as well. Yeah. So out of the crew you were the only one who managed to get back.
GM: Indeed. Indeed.
GR: Yeah.
GM: It was a great pity but —
GR: And the rest of them had to wait until 1945.
GM: I’m afraid so.
GR: Yeah. So what happened to you Gordon? After you were back and you’d had your leave and obviously the end of the war would have been still two years away.
GM: Oh yes this was, what, ‘42 .
GR: ’42. Yeah. So —
GM: Running into ‘43. Yeah. I had Christmas at home.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yeah.
GR: ‘Cause I know they had a rule about not letting you fly again or fly over.
GM: It depended on your experience I think.
GR: Yeah.
GM: But I had, in actual fact, in that four weeks and I’d got to know the identity of a lot of people.
GR: Yeah. Which was good.
GM: So, there was no question of going back on ops again.
GR: No. So did you, what did you actually do for those two years. Did you —
GM: Oh. Well, yes, after the interrogation, the next day.
GR: Yeah.
GM: After I’d been home I had to go back to this old hotel at Baker Street and went through the debriefing and they said, ‘What do you want to do?’ So, I said, ‘Well I would like to do SN course in navigation.’ Staff navigator. And so they said, ‘Well, that’s alright. We can fix that.’ And sure enough they did. I was posted away from London to Cheltenham. The aerodrome at Cheltenham. Or nearby. And I was on the staff there as an instructor until July ‘43. That’s right. July ‘43 and in that time, I was an instructor in —
GR: Navigation.
GM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And I then took the advanced course which was very interesting.
GR: Yeah.
GM: It was a good course. And I then was posted, after that, to [pause] now where did I go to?
GR: Again, as an instructor or —
GM: Oh yes.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Yes. Yes. I was posted up to Scotland. That’s right. And strangely the place where I got posted to was Wigtown.
GR: Wigtown. Yeah. I know Wigtown.
GM: And the chap I was working, that I was sent up to work with was Len [unclear] he was a flight [unclear] officer. Flight lieutenant.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Was he? Yeah. He was flight lieutenant. He was, certainly he was a regular officer and navigation specialist so I worked with him to start with and, well it all turned out very well.
GR: Yeah.
GM: Finishing up, as you say, as a flight lieutenant.
GR: Yeah. And so, I’ll pull to a close. Where was you on VE day? So 8th of May 1945. Was you still up in Scotland instructing? Where was you when you were told the war had finished?
GM: 8th of May.
GR: 1945.
GM: ‘45. I was at Wigtown.
GR: You were still up in Wigtown in Scotland. Yeah.
GM: Yes. I stayed on with the flying training. Still continued.
GR: Yeah.
GM: The air force didn’t suddenly sort of pack it all in and go home. It carried on very much as it had before. And eventually they were closing down the advanced, was it the Advanced Navigation School?
GR: Yeah.
GM: Something. Anyhow, the camp was going to be decommissioned by the sounds of things until something else was found for it to be used for and we came down south and I [pause] There was somebody who was the nav senior instructor who I’d known and met and he put a request in, I think. For me to go to where he was.
GR: Yeah. And obviously by the time you finished your service in the Royal Air Force.
GM: Yeah.
GR: You came back to Wembley.
GM: Yes. Indeed.
GR: And this house we’re sat in. How long have you lived here now Gordon?
GM: Oh, about forty five, forty six years.
GR: Forty five. Yeah. Yeah.
GM: And we had another house before this for twelve years.
GR: Yeah.
GM: The other side of Wembley.
GR: Yeah.
GM: And on the same road as where my parents lived and where I grew up.
GR: So apart from a six year sojourn in the Royal Air Force.
GM: I’ve lived in Wembley.
GR: You’re here in Wembley and we’re still in Wembley.
GM: Yeah.
GR: And I have to say, Gordon. I really appreciate what you’ve just talked about. It was absolutely wonderful. Thank you.
GM: I’m sorry to not be —
GR: Do not say sorry.
GM: More.
GR: No. I mean I —
GM: I haven’t thought about some parts of this at all.
GR: Yeah. I mean I knew your story obviously from past experiences and some of the books you’ve appeared in. And I know you’ve got your book coming out in September which is going to be eagerly awaited. But no —that was wonderful. Thank you.
GM: Oh well, you’re very kind.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Gordon Mellor. Two
Creator
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Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-27
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMellorG160627
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Gordon Mellor grew up in London and was interested in aviation. He volunteered for the Air Force and trained as a navigator in Canada. On his return to the UK he and his crew were posted to 103 Squadron at Elsham Wolds and his first operation was the thousand bomber operation against Cologne. On his eighteenth operation they were attacked by a night fighter. Gordon baled out and landed in a tree. When he had freed himself and landed on the ground, he set off to walk, by tracking the North Star, towards the general direction of Spain. He hid in a number of places during the daylight until after a few days he was inspired to knock on a door. He found he was in Belgium with people who started the process that would lead to him being escorted through an escape line from Belgium to Paris and then through the Pyrenees to Spain. He was taken to Gibraltar and flown home. After debriefing he was told he could go home and he knocked on his own home door on his birthday four weeks after his escape and evasion began.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Canada
Gibraltar
Great Britain
Spain
England--Lincolnshire
France--Paris
France
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942-10-04
1942-11-01
1945
Format
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01:09:16 audio recording
103 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
briefing
de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007)
debriefing
evading
Halifax
navigator
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Wigtown
Resistance
shot down
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/55/452/ACosoloGS160826.1.jpg
b0b7057fcf755d193dc88c74a332b239
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/55/452/ACosoloGS160826.3.mp3
47cbd3a41685739d8302c0fb42b4d8ab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Cosolo, Gualtiero Silvio
Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo
G S Cosolo
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo who recollects his wartime experiences in Monfalcone and in the surrounding areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Cosolo, GS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PC: Sono Pietro Comisso e sto per intervistare Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo per l’archivio dell’International Bomber Command Centre. Siamo a Turriaco, Gorizia, è il 26 08 2016. Grazie Silvio per aver permesso questa intervista. Prima di cominciare, vorrei farle alcune domande per essere sicuro che questa intervista venga registrata come desidera. È d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso l’Università di Lincoln, esclusivamente per scopi non commerciali, che l’università di Lincoln ne abbia il copyright e infine essere liberamente accessibile in qualsiasi formato per mostra, attività di ricerca, istruzione, come risorsa online?
GSC: Sì, vi do il consenso, molto volentieri.
PC: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
GSC: Non ho nessuna contrarietà.
PC: È d’accordo di essere fotografato per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre?
GSC: Sì, anche se non vengo bene perché ho le rughe ma a ottantaquattro anni non posso pretendere di più. E vorrei, se possibile, che mi faccia una bella fotografia.
PC: Grazie Silvio, possiamo cominciare. Allora, Silvio, mi dica qual’è il suo più vecchio ricordo a riguardo dei bombardamenti aerei della Seconda Guerra Mondiale.
GSC: Eh, questo qua è veramente un fatto singolare perché la prima esperienza che ho avuto, adesso io ho letto in qua e in là so che il bombardamento è stato effettuato il 17 marzo o giù di lì insomma del 1944 tra, il primo. Io mi son trovato proprio al centro di questo fatto perché frequentavo la scuola Ceriani, l’avviamento Ceriani di Monfalcone e quando è cominciato il, i bombardamenti naturalmente veniva suonata la sirena d’allarme e noi scappavamo tutti quanti perché ogni mattina succedeva questo, che passavano gli aerei che andavano a bombardare e suonava la sirena e noi scappavamo via con tutti i mezzi che avevamo. E non conoscendo la città di Monfalcone io distrattamente ho, credevo di far bene scappare verso la chiesa, verso il cantiere, così.
PC: Chiesa di Sant’Ambrogio?
GSC: No. Oh, perbacco. Verso l’Hannibal per esempio. La chiesa che finisce…
PC: Marcelliana.
GSC: Marcelliana, che era una chiesa dove si andava a fare le rogazioni cioè andavamo in processione da Turriaco a piedi naturalmente per le stradine per ogni anno si faceva questo voto. Io con la mia bicicletta mi trovai proprio nel momento che bombardavano il cantiere. E, o lo spostamento d’aria o la mia volontà di sopravvivenza, sono caduto nel fosso che era attorno il cimitero di Monfalcone ormai dismesso adesso e addirittura quando hanno cominciato mi cascava qualche pezzo di terra, qualcosa e sono stato testimone, mio malgrado, dei primi morti che hanno portato lì alla Marcelliana. Che l’impressione mi è durata per tantissimi anni, a veder questa carneficina, questi operai che venivano a brandelli, insomma è stato una, credo sia stato il più tremendo dei bombardamenti che aveva subìto e vedere tutto questo sangue, tutto questo, questi pezzi di, mi ha fatto almeno per dieci, quindici anni, ho avuto sempre questa impressione. E io mi son trovato proprio in questo frangente. Fortunatamente mi sono limitato a darmi una spolverata però ho visto quello che un ragazzo di dodici anni non avrebbe mai dovuto assistere. Ecco questa qua è stata la mia prima esperienza dopodichè non mi ricordo quanti altre volte hanno bombardato il cantiere, ma insomma a me era sufficiente aver assistito la prima volta. Questo è quanto. Le interessava di sapere qualcosa altro?
PC: Riguardo ai bombardamenti, quando avvenivano lei andava in rifugio antiaereo? Aveva un luogo preciso dove andava a rifugiarsi?
GSC: Allora questo qua anche che qualche tempo fa ho cercato di andare sul posto dov’era l’entrata della galleria, cioè l’uscita nella galleria che partiva dalla Piazza della Repubblica o come si chiama di fianco alla farmacia. C’era questo buco, questo bucone che non ho mai saputo per quale motivo era stata costruita, se durante la prima guerra mondiale o per la seconda. So che dopo questo bombardamento noi, specialmente delle scuole, correvamo sempre a rifugiarci dentro con biciclette tutto quanto dentro a questo. E mi ricordo questo posto che le prime volte mi faceva impressione perche c’era una farmacia dentro o qualche pronto soccorso poi c’era qualcosa che per dissetare quelli che avevano, no, niente di speciale. Ma adesso che rivivo in pratica questi momenti avrei piacere di visitarla a fondo perché mi è stato promesso. Quando ho fatto la mostra lì alla mutuo soccorso, c’era un responsabile, tra l’altro sarà anche suo amico perche s’interessava anche di reperti raccolti nella galleria, no, e mi aveva promesso che quando sarà mi inviterà a vedere e mi farebbe molto, molto piacere. Comunque eh quello che mi viene in mente quando mi prendevo questi appunti, potrei dare un suggerimento, se fosse necessario, a sollecitare chi di dovere cioè le autorità. Perché non valorizzare questo reperto storico per creare una galleria vera e propria. Potrebbe essere una galleria d’arte, si potrebbe trasformare in altre attività perché il posto anche sicuramente, anche se non è tanto accogliente però si può fare. Io, nel mio libro se posso parlare di questo, addirittura sfrutto le gallerie del Klondike, dell’Alaska e Siberia per, perché stanno realizzando un progetto della costruzione di una città che puo’ ospitare novecentomila, un milione di persone per sopravvivere alla futura e prossima fine del mondo. E se lo fanno loro e lo spiego anche perché usufruendo di qualche condotto che proviene del nucleo della Terra che ha seimila metri, un ingegnere italiano ha scoperto la maniera di usufruire di questa energia per creare l’acqua, l’aria e tutto ciò che occorre per fare, per dare la sopravvivenza a questo popolo. È un progetto futuribile naturalmente e naturalmente come tutte le novità, come tutte le cose anormali, sarà messo in forte discussione, sarà contraddetto magari, che non si può così non si può colà. Io nel, in questo libro spiego tutte queste cose e può darsi che mi diano anche del pazzo.
PC: Una domanda mi veniva in mente. Lei praticamente era un ragazzino esposto a questa esperienza drammatica dei bombardamenti aerei. Nel tunnel, visto che mi raccontava che c’andavate con tutti gli altri ragazzini della scuola, cosa facevate mentre eravate lì dentro?
GSC: Eh, sicuramente quella volta non si diceva casino, perché era una parola troppo grossa, però cagnara sì. Facevamo cagnara perché per noi dato che… Forse sono stato l’unico a avere un’esperienza diretta del primo bombardamento, li altri ridevano, la raccontavano, spintoni. Noi, specialmente i bisiacchi, che provenivano dai paesi della Bisiacaria, Turriaco, Pieris, San Canzian, non eravamo ben accolti dai monfalconesi, che erano, i monfalconesi erano sempre ben vestiti, fighetti, e quando che arrivava i bisiacchi, noi eravamo [background noise] o le papuze o i socui se posso dirlo e come vivavamo a casa così portavamo avanti il dialetto che avevamo imparato dai nostri anziani, dai nonni. E quando arrivavamo in classe, ‘oh, xe rivà, ga dit, ga ciot, ga fat,’ come che parlavasi quella volta. E c’era questo contrasto e i ne cioleva un pochetin pel fioco proprio perché parlavisi il bisiacco. Adesso magari tutti quanti vorrebbero essere bisiacchi, tutti quanti vogliono avere la radice bisiacca come fosse un marchio di fabbrica. E invece io sono testimone del contrario, che invece c’era un certo disprezzo come una razza inferiore ecco i bisiacchi. Non parlo di più perche’ ho tantissimi amici di Monfalcone, eh, con cui ho avuto e ho rapporti amichevoli e così, non voglio tradire questa mia amicizia, questa ammirazione che ho per loro.
PC: Dunque lei mi parla della gente di Monfalcone. Le persone di Monfalcone invece? Voi eravate ragazzini ma gli abitanti civili, le donne, gli uomini che erano rifugiati lì dentro invece cosa facevano nelle ore di attesa?
GSC: Diciamo che tutti quanti erano preoccupati, contrariamente a come si comportavano i ragazzi. Perché avevano della gente forse esposta, paura dei bombardamenti, specialmente quelli che lavoravano, era il 90% che lavorava in cantiere e naturalmente i genitori, i vecchi genitori erano preoccupati di altri bombardamenti, altre cose, perché anche la via romana, mi sembra è stato bombardato e mi ricordo la salita, della salita per andare alla stazione, sempre mi ricordo di un palazzo che è stato bombardato e c’erano stati anche dei morti. Eh, si volevo aggiungere una cosa, mi son dimenticato prima che noi ragazzi per frequentare la scuola dovevamo, se c’erano i bombardamenti o le, scappavamo via quando erano le sirene d’allarme dovevamo frequentare per recuperare le ore che perdevamo alla mattina, dovevamo tornare e il pomeriggio. Allora in questi casi qua dovevamo preparare il vasetto della pasta, della minestra da casa, e dove si fa sulla strada, no. Allora attraversavamo la galleria, andavamo su per il colle della Rocca, su due tre pietre facevamo un po’ di fuoco e mettevamo il vasetto della minestra per scaldare e approfittando di quella oretta che ci rimaneva al riparo delle pietre, di qualche pietra, di qualche coso, si ripassava le lezioni. Faccio per non è per un vanto però per far sapere ai nostri ragazzi che si lamentano sempre, e perche la, e la corriera e l’autobus e tutte queste cose qua, invece noi dovevamo adattarci a questo, a questo genere di cose per la sopravvivenza naturalmente e la scuola ne soffriva perché quello che io ho imparato è forse zero rispetto a quello che ho imparato dopo da solo con la mia volontà, leggere e frequentare corsi e tutto quanto, beh per recuperare quello che non avevo imparato a scuola. Naturalmente erano i tempi che erano. Perché quando ci portavamo a Monfalcone con il carro bestiame, coi operai andavamo fino al cantiere, dal cantiere a piedi fino a scuola. E dopo si finiva a mezzogiorno e dovevamo tornare a casa nei vari paesi a piedi e dov’era eh lungo la ferrovia, lungo la ferrovia e per venire a casa da Monfalcone ci volevano due ore almeno. E figurarsi in strada noi giocavamo anche perché i ragazzi malgrado tutte le condizioni avverse, rimangono sempre ragazzi con voglia di divertirsi e di scherzare.
PC: Quindi lei mi diceva, ma mi faccia capire bene, com’era effettivamente viaggiare con il pericolo di, che ci possa essere sempre un attacco aereo, lo spostarsi in quegli anni lì? C’era tensione, c’era paura? C’erano degli ovvi disagi?
GSC: Il disagio era proprio costituito dal fatto che bisognava tornare a casa a piedi e non era sempre tanto piacevole, specialmente d’inverno o con la pioggia, con tutti i tempi. Una cosa che invece era faticoso perché anche viaggiare sa, anche un treno anche se era merci ma in dieci minuti, un quarto d’ora arrivavamo a Monfalcone e non erano grandi viaggi, dove che, sì, poteva, poteva esserci questi fatti di bombardamenti. Ci si sbrigava subito. Quello che era invece più faticoso era andare con la bicicletta che siccome che mancavano le gomme, i copertoni delle biciclette, avevamo delle, dei tubi del vino, le canne da vino a mo’ di copertoni. Per cui era come le biciclette di Enrico Toti, non so se ha idea di, e la fatica era tantissima, specialmente in febbraio quando c’era il vento che durava un mese anche e noi andavamo sul crocevia di Begliano a aspettare la fila degli operai che si recavano al cantiere, e per attaccarsi alla coda perché davanti c’era sempre il più muscoloso che portava avanti la fila, come si vede adesso anche nelle gare ciclistiche c’è sempre uno che si alterna, che tira la coda. Noi facevamo lo stesso là però tutto ciò la fatica era enorme perché per ragazzi di undici, dodici anni, sa, maneggiare queste biciclette era un po’ difficile. Ma pericoli, pericoli, no, però s’incontravano delle scene naturalmente crude, nel senso che una volta proprio sul crocevia di Begliano c’era un rallentamento anche nella fila degli operai perché sulla strada erano quattro morti, quattro partigiani morti, che li avevano uccisi a mitraglia, a mitragliate, i repubblichini e li avevano lasciati lì. Mi ricordo tutti questi cadaveri, tutto l’asfalto pieno di sangue e anche quello è stato un fatto doloroso. Questi qua erano partigiani che li avevano imprigionati prima alle prigioni di Pieris e poi durante la notte li hanno liberati però c’era qualcuno che li aspettava per fucilarli. Questo qua è stato forse la cosa più brutta che mi è successo. E poi si vedevano delle camionette bruciate perché i partigiani quella volta erano molto attivi e non è che attaccavano le caserme però facevano azione di disturbo, come mettere qualche, far saltare obiettivi che erano importanti per i tedeschi e infatti sono delle cose che succedevano molto di frequente fino alla grande battaglia di Gorizia che è stato così, se posso raccontare?
PC: Mammamia!
GSC: L’8 settembre del ’43 mio padre che era in cantiere è stato avvertito insieme a altri compagni, sono riusciti a scappare dal retro del cantiere perché li hanno avvertiti che fuori c’erano dei camion che caricavano tutti gli operai che uscivano dal cantiere per portarli in Germania, così com’erano, in tuta o con abiti da lavoro e mio padre con altri sette, otto, sono riusciti a scappare e sono arrivati fino a Selz con la bicicletta e poi sono andati su in montagna, sono andati verso i paesi della Slovenia, della Yugoslavia quella volta, però Opacchiasella, mi raccontava questi particolari mio padre. Sai, tutti quei paesini lì e lì hanno combattuto ma non battaglie di grosse perché loro facevano azione di disturbo, nelle stazioni disturbavano i telefoni e le linee, azione più che altro di disturbo. E quando si preannunciava la grande offensiva dei tedeschi, tutta la gente dei nostri paesi era preoccupata perché si sentivano i rumori dei carri armati, di tutte le armi, cannoni, tutti quanti, si sentiva per tutta la notte che andavano sù. Risultato che seimila tedeschi armati fino ai denti si portavano verso le montagne per scatenare l’offensiva contro questi partigiani, che non erano tanti ma però davano disturbo. E c’è stato un fatto che mi ha addolorato e cioè mia madre che piangeva tutto il giorno perché si rendeva conto della gravità della situazione. Fortunatamente i capi dei partigiani, quella volta di buon senso, hanno avvertito tutti i capi famiglia, gli uomini che avevano famiglie e figli, li mandavano a casa, e difatti una sera e cioè la vigilia proprio della grande battaglia mio padre è venuto a casa e starei qua delle ore per raccontare quello che era successo ma naturalmente si può immaginare in che stato si trovava quest’uomo, in quali condizioni, magro, con la barba lunga, pieno di pidocchi, vestiti alla meglio come si poteva, con scarpe piene di paglia per poterli indossare. E dopo naturalmente viveva in, da clandestino e a casa mia avevano trovato saltuariamente un posto dove riunire il gruppo di partigiani cioè quelli che operavano per reperire viveri, armi e tutto quanto per mandare su. Per cui erano cinque o sei persone che si riunivano a volte in una casa una volta in un’altra e la mia casa che si trovava su questa strada, la via principale, e mi mandavano a stare dentro e avvertire se venivano, se passavano camion di tedeschi perché quasi ogni giorno c’era il rastrellamento, arrivavano due o tre camion in piazza, saltavano giù i tedeschi e i repubblichini coi mitra spianati e facevano ognuno una via e prendevano sempre qualcuno perché qua erano quasi tutti i ragazzi partigiani. E io facevo da vendetta. Non sapevo l’importanza però oggi mi rendo conto che anch’io ho contribuito in qualche maniera perché mi davano dei bigliettini da portare a Tizio, Caio, Sempronio, che erano partigiani che facenti parte del Comitato di Liberazione e mi rendo conto che anch’io ho portato il mio granellino sul mucchio della libertà e sono fiero di aver partecipato. Quello che si fa è naturalmente a fin di bene.
PC: Volevo farle ancora una domanda per ritornare alla guerra aerea. Lei mi ha raccontato di questa esperienza terribile di vedere queste scene dei, gli operai del cantiere smembrati, portati. Cosa pensa, adesso dopo tutti questi anni, dei bombardamenti aerei? Cosa le è rimasto? Prova un senso di rabbia o di, per chi li provocava o magari ha capito quello che poteva essere lo scopo di quegli atti anche così violenti e brutali come potevano essere i bombardamenti aerei?
GSC: [sigh] Naturalmente la guerra è una cosa che non porta sicuramente dei benefici. Cioè forse sbaglio. I benefici ce li hanno chi costruisce le bombe, chi costruisce le armi, è un business, e quando le guerre non ci sono, le inventano, perché proprio è un business. In fatto di paura naturalmente nel nostro paese qua esistevano, esistono ancora ma sono inglobate nelle case che sono state costruite dopo, delle trincee, delle grandi trincee che erano state costruite durante la guerra del ’15-’18 e avevano degli stanzoni grandi dove qualcuno s’era [pause] aveva creduto opportuno per salvare i bambini dai bombardamenti, di farli dormire in queste trincee e noi avevamo qua vicino al campo sportivo una trincea che si prestava benissimo per cui stavano 25, 30 bambini, in qualche maniera, e noi bambini e i vecchi andavamo ogni sera lì a dormire in questa, in questi stanzoni. Proprio la preoccupazione era di Pippo si chiamava, noi l’avevamo battezzato Pippo, che era un aereo da bombardamento che passava su tutti i paesi, ma girava proprio tutta la notte e dove vedeva delle luci buttava giù i spezzoni, naturalmente qua a Begliano nelle casette avevano buttato e era morta una ragazza di diciotto anni e quello ci ha fatto tanta impressione. Proprio da lì era scaturita questa idea di farci dormire nelle trincee, perché anche durante la notte era pericolo, gli operai che andavano o che venivano a casa avevano i fanali coperti da un pezzo di carta di giornale con un buchino giusto che passava un lumicino di luce per poter, e anche queste qua, questi fatti naturalmente comportava dei pericoli, perché io non so come riuscivano a individuare delle piccole luci da mille metri non so appunto, viaggiava questo apparecchio, questo Pippo. E però faceva paura, guai aprire la finestra, guai aprire la porta, guai fuori perché c’era sempre questo star sul chi va là delle bombe. Altri fatti, non so, da menzionare, così come, non so, l’uccisione per esempio, ma quello forse è un’altra cosa. Avevano ucciso per vendette perché non lo voglio dire perché potrebbe essere interpretato nella maniera sbagliata, però succedeva anche nei paesi. Per esempio, questo lo posso dire, un certo Walter, che era una spia dei nazisti, dei repubblichini che erano quelli dell’esercito del duce dopo l’8 settembre. Quello è stato ucciso in ospedale, cioè gli hanno sparato in ospedale e visto che non era ancora morto l’hanno ucciso, sono andati là i partigiani e l’hanno ucciso e mi sembra di ricordare che hanno ucciso anche sua madre che lo assisteva. Walter, Walter si chiamava. È una cosa che ti faceva non piacere ma era come un senso di giustizia dato che questo Walter, questo famigerato Walter era uno spione e tutti quanti applaudirono a questo fatto perché era come Zorro che difendeva i più deboli e per noi era stato un fatto molto grave.
PC: D’accordo. Silvio, la ringrazio infinitamente, se ha qualche altro.
GSC: Forse ho chiacchierato più del.
PC: No, ma va molto bene. Io la ringrazio della, dell’intervista e grazie di nuovo, anche a nome della Lincoln.
GSC: Non è facile naturalmente, parlare, descrivere con, perché se uno legge qualcosa di preparato è difficile io ritengo.
PC: Andava benissimo.
GSP: Ritengo.
PC: Andava benissimo.
GSC: Io ho questo, ma forse non interessa. Io ho cominciato avere i ricordi della mia vita quando avevo due anni e mezzo. Qua ho cominciato con i primi ricordi, e sono andato avanti descrivendo un po’ quello che succedeva nei paesi, quello che succedeva nella mia famiglia, sono anche storie personali, ma posso tranquillamente vantarmi perché non c’è qualcosa di offensivo per nessuno. Sono arrivato fino al, non è la conclusione perché qua ho messo continua però sono arrivato fino al ’45, concludendo che la guerra aveva provocato 40 milioni di morti. Se lei ha.
PC: Con molto piacere, con molto piacere.
GSC: Un quarto d’ora, venti minuti.
PC: Sicuramente.
GSC: Da leggere.
PC: La ringrazio infinitamente.
GSC: Puo darsi che trovi qualche spunto per continuare il suo lavoro.
PC: Grazie mille.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Gualtiero Silvio Cosolo recalls attending the Ceriani vocational school in Monfalcone, at this time the air raid siren went off every day and the children would run to the nearest shelter. Describes the 7 March 1944 bombing and the gruesome sight of dead shipyard workers, an event which scared him for years to come. Remembers the sense of oppression when he first went to a public shelter. Contrasted the behaviour of boys laughing out loudly and messing around, and the composure of adults who looked worried and thoughtful. Recalls the rivalries among boys from different towns and neighbourhoods and describes the blackout precautions of the dockyard workers. Recounts memories of his dad and friends who evaded roundup and managed to escape to Slovenia and later took part in the Battle of Gorizia, a series of actions between Germans and partisans. Recounted acting as a lookout when partisans used his home as a meeting place.
Creator
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Pietro Commisso
Date
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2016-08-26
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:34:54 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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ACosoloGS160826
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Monfalcone
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-03-07
1943-09-08
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
Pippo
Resistance
round-up
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/73/735/PDiBlasG1602.1.jpg
f2414e632246c9f7804f01873798dcee
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/73/735/ABollettiI-diBlasG160826.2.mp3
cc854a6c54672a088ba0e178dfcc0cbe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Di Blas, Guido and Bolletti, Ilario
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of a dual oral history interview with Guido Di Blas and Ilario Bolletti who recollects their wartime experiences in Monfalcone and surrounding areas.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bolletti, I
diBlas, G
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PC: Sono Pietro Comisso e sto per intervistare Di Blas Guido e Bolletti Ilario, per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Center. Siamo a Monfalcone, è il 26 8 2016. Grazie Ilario e Guido per aver permesso questa intervista. Prima di cominciare vorrei farle alcune domande per essere sicuro che questa intervista venga registrata come desidera. Ilario, è d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso dall’Università di Lincoln, esclusivamente per scopi non commerciali, che l’Università di Lincoln ne abbia il copyright e infine essere liberamente accessibile in qualsiasi formato per mostre, attività di ricerca, istruzione e come risorsa online?
IB: Va bene.
PC: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
IB: Va bene.
PC: È d’accordo ad essere fotografato per l’Archivio Digitale dell’International Bomber Command Center?
IB: Va bene.
PC: E Guido: è d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso dall’Università di Lincoln?
GDB: Sì, sì.
PC: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
GDB: Sì, sì, sì.
PC: È d’accordo ad essere fotografato?
GDB: Sì, sì.
PC: Bene, possiamo cominciare. Raccontatemi il vostro più vecchio ricordo riguardante i bombardamenti aerei su Monfalcone? Comincia chi vuole, chi preferisce.
IB: Posso parlare?
PC: Prego, prego.
IB: Io ero a vedere di Delfo, non c’ho la data, si era a, ci hanno preso con una, detti di andare a questa festa invece doveva essere un, i fascisti facevano un, sì che era Delfo ma non era solo Delfo, dovevano fare.
GDB: Manifestazione.
IB: Una manifestazione sua, e in quell’epoca è venuto un bombardamento e spessonamento, dove eravamo lì e si scappava dove si poteva e io ho preso un, un legno in testa che sono corso fin a Monfalcone da una zia che aveva una cantina e fin a lì, fin a poi passato il bombardamento, e ho saputo dopo che erano più morti, basta.
PC: Mi diceva di una bambina, mi raccontava.
IB: Sì. Ero con, su un bunker chiuso che non, non era aperto, eravamo lì e era anche un tedesco, e una bambina ferita alla testa con, che dopo ho saputo che è morta [pause] questo tedesco l’ha, è andata a prendere e portarla sotto lì, dopo no ho saputo più niente perché siamo scappati via e così è finita questa cosa qua. Cosa vuoi sapere altro?
PC: Parli pur liberamente di quello che si ricorda, qualsiasi cosa.
IB: Eh. E della guerra che, una volta per esempio i pescatori, mia nonna vendeva pesse in piassa per pre, quando era la mafia del pesse, non poteva venderlo come lo vendi oggi, e veniva spartito mezzo chilo di sardine facendo la fila in mercato, non era come oggi che puoi andar comprare la, il pane con la tessera, tutte quelle cose lì. Ecco, basta. Guido, parla ti!
GDB: Allora, mi ricordo el bombardamento di San Giuseppe nel ’44, quando abitavamo sempre lì su per Borgo San Michele, questa casa popolare con cinquantasei famiglie, io avevo nove anni e mio fratello ne aveva due anni più di me, due anni e mezzo più di me, Mario che adesso è morto, con una gamba poliomelitica, e quando abbiamo sentito tutt’un momento di scoppi tremendi e siamo usciti da casa scappando via, il cielo era illuminato coi bengala come a giorno, un spettacolo che mi è rimasto impresso che no mai dimenticherò, ma una scena apocalittica: le fiamme e i scoppi delle bombe del cantiere, una cosa, una cosa, un bambino di nove anni vede così, mio fratello; allora mia mamma, siamo scappati lungo il canale, l’argine e ‘ndavamo verso il monte verso, verso
IB: ‘Ndo che iera le grotte.
GDB: Dove c’erano le queste nostre grotte, ‘vevamo scavato un paio di grotte lì, per nascondersi; e ‘lora mio fratello e mia madre ‘Forsa Mario corri, corri’, lui non poteva, lui rimaneva dietro e noi, mia mama, ‘na cosa, ‘na cosa tremenda, lui faceva fatica a correre, no, lui aveva undici anni, e insomma siamo arrivati a lì, ma, ma questa scena apocalittica che ho visto io mi rimarà sempre nel, nel mie occhi. Ecco ‘l bombardamento, e poi mi ricordo che era venuto anche mio nono del Friuli di Terzo d’Aquileia, era venuto vedere dopo, l’indomani, anche cos’è succeso, quanti morti, e mi ricordo che siamo ‘ndati in cantiere e nel vecchio teatrino della Marcelliana, io ho sbirciato, mio nonno è andato dentro, era ancora tutte le, i morti messi lungo per terra là erano così, una scena anche da non vedere, ma ho visto dalla porta così, no, e mio nonno è andato a vedere. Ecco, questo è un ricordo brutto. Un altro ricordo è lo scoppio, lo scoppio della galleria, anche quella volta mi sembra fosse stata l’alba, perché abbiamo sentito questo tremendo scoppio, noi abitavamo, ‘vevamo la camera dietro verso la ferrovia, de questo grande caseggiato, case popolare, e io mi sono affacciato alla finestra e ho visto queste fiamme di fuoco che uscivano dalla galleria, no, ma anche di quella scena mi è rimasta una scena tremenda. Un altro [sic] immagine tremenda che mi è rimasta scolpita come, come ragazzo, non a Monfalcone, ma a Terzo d’Aquileia, ‘na stazione dove abitavano i miei nonni materni. A Terzo d’Aquileia io e mio fratello sempre andavamo là per motivi anche di, per mangiare roba non, un po’ di terra così, e avevano lungo la ferrovia da Cervignano a Belvedere, i tedeschi da Cervignano portavano dei vagoni anche, deposito di benzina qualche volta, facevano queste piccole stazioni fuori, no, da Cervignano, ecco, e mi è capitato che io e mio fratello ecco, anche in estate, l’estate del ’44, anche questo fatto qui, sono una squadriglia di caccia inglesi Spitfire, quelli che, veloci.
IB: Mitragliaven, cacciabombardieri.
GDB: Ecco e son capitati io, io, sulla ferrovia che raccoglieva, c’era un piccolo fosso dall’altra lato, tre binari, e io ero in mezzo lì, e un operaio che lavorava nella ferrovia, e son capitati questi caccia in picchiata, e io ho visto il pilota con gli occhiali, no, che venivano giù in picchiata e mitragliava e lanciava queste bombe, 500 libbre mi sembra che erano, o 1000 libbre, e una è rimasta anche inesplosa che l’ho vista, e son cadute nel campo di mio nonno, vicino lì, che ha fatto queste buche. Ecco io mi domando perché, vedere noi, due bambini lì, questi piloti inglesi accanirsi a mitragliare. Ma cosa mitragliavano? Io ho visto il pilota sa’, gli Spitfire e [makes a wooshing sound]
IB: Eh ma la guerra era guerra.
GDB: Tremendo, tremendo! [emphasis] Sono quelle scene che adesso io immagino chi va coi bambini che vedono la guerra, oggigiorno, capisco cosa vuol dire. E prima di questo era successo sempre lì, ‘na notte, il famoso Pippo, ha sentito parlare di Pippo?
IB: Sì, sì.
GDB: Il bimotore che girava.
IB: Iera qua.
GDB: Io dormivo nella camera e ha lanciato sempre sulla stazione un paio, due bombe che sono esplose, che la camera, i vetri son saltati, [emphasis] ma un spavento, un spavento impressionante, ecco. Son quelle cose che non vanno via, che son, colpiscono e ti rendono la vita, capisci ‘desso cosa vuol dire quanta fatica questi bambini per arrivare adulti quante prove che la vita ci provoca, no.
IB: Quel del treno blindato.
GDB: E poi anche a casa mia, non era a casa mia mama.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Subito verso, verso la fine de la guera.
IB: [unclear] La fine de la guera, no, i giorni prima.
GDB: No, è passato un treno blindato, sempre una ferrovia lì, dalla rotta.
IB: I gà sparà verso de noi.
GDB: Ecco, e ha mitragliato anche la nostra casa lì.
IB: Sì, sì!
GDB: Hanno forato il muro.
IB: Mi, mi un scuro caduto giù e lui ha cacciato tutto dentro e ha preso il contatore de l’acqua.
GDB: De l’acqua.
IB: E l’è esploso nell’attacco fuori [unclear].
GDB: Il treno blindato che è passato è andato via fuori da lì, no. Poi altri ricordi, dei flash, le dico solo dei flash della mia, siccome che lì dov’è l’ospedale adesso c’erano sei, otto, batterie antiaeree tedesche erano lì.
IB: Sì, lì che sé l’ospedal.
GDB: E lì, ecco, lì.
IB: Sì. I gà tirà lì quei li, lui iera via, ier ‘ndati i sfolati lori.
GDB: In Friuli, ma ogni tanto venivo giù.
IB: E invece noi siamo stati lì noi, no gavemo né parenti né niente.
GDB: E quegli anni là, quando passavano ma centinaia di aerei, i B-29, formazione che ‘ndavano a bombardare in Germania, erano alti.
IB: I gà tirà giorno e notte.
GDB: E lori tiravano queste nuvolette, [mimics anti-aircraf fire].
IB: I ultimi tempi proprio.
GDB: Cadevano giù le schegge anche là da noi lì.
IB: Iera proprio i [unclear].
GDB: Ma ecco, anche quei lì, quante fortezze volanti che son passate là, e una volta una è stata colpita.
IB: Sì, e i paracadutisti i sé cascadi qua, no i sé ‘rivadi [unclear].
GDB: Un aereo tentava di atterrare là dei partigiani.
IB: [unclear] L’ha cercà ‘ndar là dei partigiani. Invece no i ga arivai, li gà ciapadi i tedeschi e i fassisti.
GDB: I mitragliava, mitragliava.
IB: I fassisti che iera coi tedeschi, no, parché dopo.
GDB: I repubblichini.
IB: Sì, i repu, i repubblicani. E iera un prete che ga ciapà, iera anche un nero, che noi no lo gavemo mai visto un nero, no.
GDB: Ecco quei ricordi, quei ricordi, sì, de, che dopo altre c, altre cose lì, era un misto, sempre [unclear], al paese di mio nonno, sempre verso la fine dela guera, che i tedeschi prima di fuggire son passati di San Martino, no, ‘l paese di San Martino, dopo Terzo lì, e lì son stati attaccati, hanno ‘vuto un attacco, lì qualcosa, gli hanno sparato, e loro per rappresaglia hanno tirato su un, anche ragazzi de sedici anni.
IB: Era un treno blindato lì?
GDB: No no, lì li hanno presi per queste, e li hanno fatto rappresaglia e li hanno portati sul fiume, l’argine, andando a Terzo si vede ancora la lapide, e li hanno uccisi lì, ecco. E io ho visto passare, dopo, l’indomani, su un carro coperto col fieno, e li portavano verso il cimitero queste salme mon, sul carro, ecco. Vedi, quelle scene così.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Ecco. Tutto questo da bambino, da bambino, ecco. Altre cose Ilario?
IB: Ehh no so.
PC: Ho la domanda per Ilario: si ricorda un po’ com’è stato questo spettacolo del mago Delfo? Che ne ho sentito parlare, mi interessa saperlo questo.
IB: Sì, sì sì, semo ‘ndai là ma no go mio rivudo a vedere gnente, parché sé vignuo subito, semo scampadi via mi con me fradel, g’avevo un fradel più piccolo che sé morto [background noise], e semo scampadi via subito parché bombe, roba, de tut no sé stae niente.
GDB: In mezo al bombardamento.
IB: Ierimo ‘ndadi là con quela de veder, e ierimo tutti muli l’è, za dodici, tredici anni, quattordici anni, credemo che sia chissà cossa.
PC: Guido, prima me parlava de, dela galleria-rigufio; la me racconti quello che succedeva dentro la galleria-rifugio.
GDB: Ehh, tutti, tutti quei che abitavamo non la galleria grande, quelle piccole che ‘vemo noi, quelli de l’accasamento cinquantasei famiglie, che ‘raamo lì e ‘ndavamo su queste piccole.
IB: Quando che iera la guera e sonava l’allarme se scappava, sì.
GDB: E allora lì, una aveva vicina, perché un vecchio, un signore che ‘veva fatto la guerra del ’15-’18.
IB: Sì la g’emo scavada noi sotto.
GDB: Ha detto ‘Qui dev’esser una’, e c’era una grande busata sotto lì, e abbiamo, era pulita e ‘nsomma era la più vicina che era lì ‘nsomma, no, era abbastanza lunga come da qua a là, no Ilario, così lunga iera.
IB: Ehhla iera bela e granda, iera due entrate, cussì, no.
GDB: Perché sotto l’Austria, fatte sotto l’Austria quelle lì.
IB: Sì, iera dela guera del ’15-’18, lu ‘l se ga ricordà che iera sotto lì e g’amo scavà, parché lì vicin iera anche la cusìna, se ricorde che iera quel calabusata là, quando che sogaimo lì che iera.
GDB: Sì, sì, sì.
IB: Parché iera in tera.
GDB: E dopo ‘l nostro, dighe come che te faseimo risolver ‘l problema della fame, ‘ndaimo in cerca de pani.
IB: ‘Ndaimo a balini, ‘ndaimo.
GDB: Schegge, balini, su per i monti, purtroppo la nostra infanzia è vissuta in mezzo a tanti pericoli, ecco.
IB: Tanta miseria.
PC: Te me parlavi de questa foto qua che, recuperavisi le muizioni epoi ‘ndavisi a vender.
IB: Sì, sì.
PC: Conteme de questa.
IB: Ah ecco, poi, ‘pena finì la guera qua metevimo, una sotto cussì e meteimo la, la granata di là, qua [unclear] cussì, e qua la vigniva zo coi ditti neri [laugh], parché la granata che iera davanti, no, [unclear].
GDB: [unclear].
IB: Iera da drìo, no, meteva tal canon e i la tirava, no, e meteimo una cussì e la, e la ve dopo andavimo a scola e vendeimo la balistite, ghe disemo ‘Pol impisar al fogo’, invesse i feva.
GDB: Sa cosa facevo lui a Checco, coi vasi del Sidol, c’erano gli spaghetti, i famosi spaghetti là, li metteva dentro e dopo gli dava fuoco co’ la miccia e li lanciava, abbiamo inventato i missili, vai là, li lanciavo [makes whoosing sound], spettacolo, ai ai ai, sempre in pericolo lui, lui scop, dighe co’ te scoppiavi.
IB: No ma quan, no iero mi, poi ga fat lori ma mi no saveo niente, i g’aveva mes un, un tubo, carico de balistite, ma i ga sbaglià, i ga mes fulminante, no, e invece de scoppiar pian.
GDB: Metter la miccia?
IB: L’è soppià subito.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Mi come che ‘ndavo fora ‘vevo giusto la man fora.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Un mese de ospedal ho fatto, ma i te tignìa.
GDB: E poi cosa si faceva anche, Iaio ? Quando io ‘ndavo a pescar el pesse sul canal.
IB: Cu l’eletrico, butaimo su che sé l’alta tension, e gaveimo i fili che i tedeschi gaveva lassà.
GDB: Dei rodoli.
IB: Dei telefoni, no, telefonici, e mettemo ‘na ncorretta e tiraimo su oltre, e dopo tiraimo il filo e restava ciapà.
GDB: Sull’alta tension tra l’altro.
IB: Sì ma alta tension, e tal canal cu la voliga.
GDB: Una voliga, poi i pessi.
IB: Poi i pessi, vigniva, poi insomma, l’è restà morteggià, e ne trovo su.
GDB: E lù che ‘l me fa [unclear] [laughs].
IB: No [laughs], che mona, al sé ‘nda par cior el pesse, no, fortuna che ghe go tirà.
GDB: Ciapà ‘na scarica eletrica.
IB: No, ghe go tirà via el filo, al se ga distacà, i la gà risparmiada perché, bagnada e quela corente là, no iera a ven, a duecento.
GDB: Lungo il canale dell’ospedale lì, no, fino a Ponte Bianco, là così, tutta ‘na percorso di fili, alta tensione, e loro, un gruppo di giovani nuotavano su in alto [unclear].
IB: E una volta i tedeschi i se ha ribaltà, parché lì i muli, sa, i ‘ndav co’ sti gommoni no
[background noise]
PC: Tornando sempre al discorso della galleria-rifugio, che me disessi, voi me g’avè dito che sé stadi dentro due o tre volte durante la guerra proprio.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Quando l’era l’allarme, l’allarme.
IB: Sì.
PC: Ve ricordé cosa faseva le persone che iera dentro, proprio fisicamente dentro nella galleria?
IB: Eh i stava lì, i spettava, perché tante volte vigniva il bombardamento, tante volte no, ma l’allarme sonava e dopo sonava el cessato allarme.
GDB: L’alarme e il cessato alarme, sì sonava.
PC: Perché la domanda che mi me fasso, un momento de grande tension comunque perché no te sa se la casa.
IB: No te sa come che sé, cossa che l’è sta fora, o, quando che te sé dentro là, là te spetave.
GDB: Eh l’era un brusio de rumori, così, certa gente che fiadava, e iera eh, immagini del flash della galleria, sì mi quele quatro volte che ‘ndava, che me trovavo vissin Monfalcon ‘ndavo lì, ma se no ‘ndaimo sempre sul nostro, su le nostre piccole grotte che veimo qua, no, verso lì, ecco.
IB: Sì, se se trovave là te dove corer dove che iera, siccome che mi g’avevo la nonna che vendeva pesse in piassa sercavo de ‘ndar a ciapar un do pessi; i sé restadi anca schisadi un due.
PC: Te me racconti de questo fatto?
IB: Parché iera dei, i meteva dele trave, perciò che no posse un andar davanti dei altri, no, e la fila iera cussi’, pien de gente, no, pa’ ‘ndar a cior al pesse, e quel pesse che iera fin a col iera dava un po’ par’omo, e i ne dava fora cussì, iera l’ammasso per il pesse, no, i doveva portarlo tutti là, e dopo i ghe dava quel che ghe lo pagò, come che i ghe lo pagava, ma la gente ‘lmeno magnava.
PC: Perché lei la me ga contado anche che nella galleria-rifugio sé stada gente che se ga schisado durante un’allarme.
IB: Sì, sì, ma no iero là eh, noi staimo qua ma, dopo il gorno, quando che te sa subito, no, che i sé stai morti, par scampar dentro, iera ‘l bombardamento, parché se sé l’allarme ti va dentro pian, ma se sé bombardamento chi pol più, pianse meno, no i se, e par ‘ndar dentro sull’imbocco i se ga copà, che dev’esse’ ‘na brutta roba.
PC: Sì, sì, sì g’avemo trovado.
IB: Ma no so quanti, no me ricordo.
GDB: Dighe, dighe quando che i vigniva i tedeschi a far rastrellamento in casa mia, anche lì.
IB: I vigniva spesso perché iera tanti giovani che.
GDB: Partigiani.
IB: Tutti ‘ndadi coi partigiani, di fatti coi dovea sal, far saltar al ponte là, iera stadi i nostri de qua, del casamento lì, parché iera Renso, Santo; e una volta i sé vignui far rastrellamento e lu ‘l sé corso a casa San, Renso Bevilacqua, dopo i sé.
GDB: Tanti i ‘ndava sotto, sotto sui casamenti, sotto, te ricorditu?
IB: Sì, sotto de un casamento g’avemo,.
GDB: Fondamenta.
IB: Quando che iera rastrellamenti, quei che i era a casa, parché se no i li portava in Germania, i scampava sotto in cantina, ma iera la cantina bassa cussì.
GDB: Iera una portisela.
IB: Iera una portela e i ‘ndava dentro, e i ‘ndava in fondo là, e g’avea fat par fin a, serà che i ‘ndava anca de sora da sotto; per esempio Lino,.
GDB: Sì, sì.
IB: Lino proprio quel che sé morto lo, alla.
PC: A Ornella.
IB: Sì a Ornella, al g’avea fat sotto.
GDB: Una botola, sì.
IB: Sotto, sotto.
GDB: La casa.
IB: La casa, quando iera i rastrellamenti i ‘ndava sotto, gavav ‘l cappello.
GDB: Ecco, tutte robe.
IB: Ehh.
PC: E quindi per finire il discorso della galleria-rifugio, dopo sé stada questa famosa esplosion.
IB: Sì.
PC: Racconteme cosa che sé successo, se conosseve.
IB: Ehh i ‘ndava dentro par cior sti bossoli de otton, e i sé ‘ndadi dentro, i era dentro cu’ le candele, cun roba cussì e sé sta, sfilse, iera batterie, roba cussì, no sarìa sta quel che l’è vignù.
GDB: So che i ‘ndava, i sé’ndai più de ‘na volta dentro là.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Che i ghe ‘ndava [unclear].
IB: Ehh i g’aveva ferai, de nume, de roba, o che se ga rot qualcossa, parché nissun no sa, parché no sé sta, quei che i iera fora no ga rivà.
GDB: Perché ‘l cugin de tuo papà doveva esser responsabile.
IB: Sì, parché ‘l cugin de mio papà iera una guardia comunale, e lu no’l doveva lassa ‘ndar dentro ma, par la pecunia.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Sé sta cussì, quei anni iera altri anni, de miserie, i g’veva fioi.
PC: E che voi ricordé anca alcuni nomi de queste persone, magari.
GDB: Due mi conossevo: quel lì de Ornella, Lino.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Che abitavimo assieme lì.
IB: E mi quel puntignì (?).
GDB: E quel Bolletti lì, che sé, sé la fìa ancora qua, che l’è infermiera [unclear].
IB: Sì, do casa qua, proprio qua da drìo.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Una, una sorella sé morta, una sé viva, le iera tre, e quella muta.
GDB: Ecco, però, però, sì, mi no, mi no me lo ricordo quel Bolletti lì, nome lo ricordo.
IB: Ma anca mi.
GDB: [unclear] i ga lassà tutto.
IB: Sì, so moglie, sì che somo sempre, ierimo insieme. Anca quei iera vignui qua, no zera stai caquella volta?
GDB: Dopo, dopo, sì; mi, mi son de origine proprio monfalconesi, e noi, che noi staimo al baracche (?) de [unclear].
IB: Mi go i miei bisnonni tutti morti qua.
GDB: Dopo sé baracche(?) de [unclear], che iera vissin l’ospedal vecio, dove poi.
IB: ‘Pena finia la guera, ussio da me mama (?).
GDB: Dopo che sé tornadi indrìo tutti i profughi, i ha delle baracche fatte, no.
IB: Sì le baracche [unclear] staimo tutti e due.
PC: De là del canal iera?
GDB: Verso Via Buonarrotti.
PC: Mmmm.
IB: La Via Buonarrotti, là che iera l’ospedal vecio, vicin.
GDB: L’Ostaria del Placido, i carboneri iera.
IB: Sì.
GDB: Ecco, e dopo de lì, noi del ’38 semo ‘ndai a abitar.
IB: Lì.
GDB: Su sto palazzo grande ‘ga fatto in memoria del Duce. Mi no go conossuo mio nonno paterno, mio nonno paterno iera Capo della Finanza sotto l’Austria, Giuseppe se ciamava.
IB: E invesse.
GDB:... e iera, i ga dito, i ‘veva le caserme [unclear], però i zera pochi finanzieri, pochi finanzieri, e chi [unclear].
IB: E invece mi.
GDB: La giurisdizione le stada fin a Pieris di Turiacco.
IB: Me bisnonno Facchinetti, no, al iera a caccia con Francesco Giuseppe.
GDB: Ecco.
IB: Parché lori i stava a in Sdobba.
GDB: Ah ecco.
IB: I stava a Grado, i Facchinetti i è de Grado, me nonna iera Facchinetti, e la me contava de so papà mia nonna.
GDB: E mi,e so bepi sul, ‘l beche pescador là ‘l me contava de mio nono, che mi no l’ho conssuo mio nonno, iera in Afghanistan, no.
IB: Sì, sì, ma anca mi quel.
GDB: Alora ‘l passava.
IB: To nono me contava me papà.
GDB: Lungo el canal Valentinis, che era gente che la ‘ndava a pescar o tognar là, e lui ghe diseva ‘No, no se pol star qua, dové ‘ndar lavorar’, perché iera tante fabbrichette a Monfalcon, e i ‘ndava là, ‘ndava a lavo, lavorar, i li mandava a lavorar sotto l’Austria.
IB: So nono ‘l iera de Grado, fin a Duin ‘l g’era.
GDB: Sì, sì, ‘veva un bel.
IB: Tocco de, de vardar insomma.
GDB: E dopo se.
IB: In quei anni, ma era prima dela guera.
GDB: E dopo mi g’vevo dei zii, che no go cono, qualchidun zia no go conossù, e l’era anca [unclear]
IB: Sì, ma to bisnona la iera lì cun ti.
GDB: Le cose che mi ricordo di mia nona, che mi con mia nona, nel ’42, quei anni lì, andaimo, ela no la podeva caminar, ‘ndaimo co’ la carrozza ongi mese a cior la pension de l’Austria in Banca d’Italia, se ‘ndava, quei anni lì; e perché poi mandava ben l’Austria, pagava ben i suoi ex, no.
PC: Mi g’avesse ancora una domanda per lei, Guido, [background noise] come la se sente a esser stado bersaglio de qualchidun?
GDB: Scioccante, sé un trauma che l’è dificile cancelar, perché sé, sé robe, par impossibile che certa gente ga de accanirse magari anche contro dei putei giovani cussì, perché iera una, una stazion così de, de, che fossì sta in piena guera, ma mitragliar, i te vedi sti piloti che i te mitraglia co’ sti, sti.
IB: Ehh iera guera.
GDB: Ma, ma, ma, chi, chi chi.
IB: Lori no i saveva cos’ che iera.
GDB: Eh va ben, ma veder sti piloti co’ sti ociai cussì, che i vignìa zo in picchiata, e queste bocche ‘ tututututu’, e sganciava le bombe lì. Mio nono, che ha fatto un otto, dieci buse perché confinava con la ferrovia, no.
IB: Ma te vedi anche ‘desso.
GDB: Mio nono, co’ la carriola, da solo, i le ga stropade, sa?, mio nono, pian pian, pian pian, pian pian, col badil, sa?, cola pala, ecco, la grande costanza.
IB: Sì ma anca quel sarà [inclear] stropà tut.
GDB: No, no iera le ruspe quel’anno, col tut va a ciapr su che iera, ste bombe, buse de, mi me ricordo, go vue ‘nche, ecco. E i miei nonni quando che s’era in fin i ga dito che, semo rivai casa, che semo toradi de ritorno.
IB: Te sa cos’ che iera.
GDB: I pensava che ierimo tut morti, completamente morti, perché tut quel disastro che iera.
IB: Noi qua a Monfalcon anca semo vissudi un poco rubando il sal alla Solvay, o sui cari, o sui treni, che se saltava sui treni a cior carbon quando che i se fermava qua al semafero, se butava zo carbon o, se iera quei de sal, se ‘ndava su coi sacchetti, se impiniva de sal e dopo te lo vendevi, te ‘ndavi a ciapar pa’ roba, par ciò che i te dai la farina, ai contadini, qua a Monfalcon no iera niente, alora se ‘ndava in Friul, là, cul sal e te vivevi cussì, no.
GDB: Vigniva le navi de sal al porto, e rimaneva sula banchina tanto sal, e i ‘ndeva.
IB: Sì, ma anche, ma noi ‘ndeimo anca de note, de note cu’ me nono, te ghe davi ai fassisti, te ghe davi un do lire,i te lassava ‘ndar dentro, te ‘ndavi in scogliera, te impinivi un sac e te portava un, do, tre sacchi e dopo te li mettea, noi g’eimo i casoni, no, al porto qua, a Porto Rosegai.
GDB: In Friuli ifa bisogno del sal, per copar i maiali.
IB: Sì eh, lori par copar i porchi, una roba o l’altra voleva ‘l sal, iera come l’oro ‘l sal, e lori no i dava roba de magnar.
GDB: Ecco, ora contando ste robe qua, attualmente, anche mi go i nipoti, ne go un de unidici anni, un de sei, ma no ghe interessa niente, no sé più una volta ‘lora disea ‘Fin che quando i noni non raccontano, no, e i giovani non ascoltano.
IB: Cossa seo [unclear].
GDB: Termina tutta la storia, no’, per questo son triste mi anche, vedo mi ormai go quela età che go, no go nessuna ambission de viver, sa? Dopo go anche un fìo disabile che, povero, che ‘l ga cinquantaquatro anni, sa, tanti anni ad accudirlo e a farghe tutto.
IB: Finimo?
GDB: Sì, ‘peta ‘desso che te concludo ‘l mio percorso, Dio, son rivà a questa età qua, che no go nissuna più prospettiva, neanche speranza in un futuro migliore perché vedo che ‘l mondo va, sta andando a rotoli, sa, no sé nissun, nissun, sé ingestibile ‘l mondo ormai, per questo, ecco. E mi ringrazio ‘l signor Pietro Comisso.
PC: Mi ve ringrazio a voi.
GDB: Sì.
PC: Che sé stada una intervista meravigliosa.
GDB: No.
PC: Mi ve ringrazio per la testimonianza e per le tante robe che me g’avé.
GDB: Dei piccoli aneddoti flash, ecco, della vita nostra.
PC: Ve ringrazio infinitamente.
IB: Ti tira fora quel, quel che te par ben.
GDB: Ecco.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Guido Di Blas and Ilario Bolletti
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Projectiles, Aerial
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pietro Commisso
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-26
Contributor
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Marco Dalla Bona
Format
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00:29:08 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Monfalcone
Identifier
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ABollettiI-diBlasG160826
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Guido Di Blas and Ilario Bolletti recount wartime memories associated with the town of Monfalcone and the surrounding area. Describes a severe night of bombing stressing the ominous sight of target indicators and loud explosions; recalls the massive loss of life when local children who were gathered to watch a magician's show, found themselves under attack. Recounts the appalling sight of many corpses placed in improvised morgues. Describes local shelters, some being modified First World War structures. Recollects a bomber being shot down and the stir caused by the sight of a black airman; remembers the strafing of a railway station when the aircraft was so close he could clearly see the pilot. Mentions various wartime stories: conscription dodgers trying to escape roundups, reprisals, the ominous presence of "Pippo", and a German armoured train opening fire. Recollects how people tried to get by and circumvent rationing: electrical supply by tapping overhead power lines, pilfering supplies from goods trains, bribing Fascist officers to make them turn a blind eye, trading stolen salt for flour. Describes post-war hardships when they salvaged shell cases and metal splinters for their scrap value, and mentions improvised pyrotechnic devices made with explosives taken from live ammunition. Recalls people injured or killed by improper handling of live shells. Reflects on the legitimacy of attacking non-military targets and the feeling of hopelessness this created. In the photograph, Guido Di Blas is on the left and Ilario Bolletti is on the right.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
round-up
shelter
strafing
target indicator