4
25
502
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/186/PFilliputtiA16010097.1.jpg
ae3635536285a7eb94668cb5ee125607
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Inmates in the Udine prison being liberated by partisans. Part 2
Description
An account of the resource
Partisans disguised as fascists reveal their identity and attack the guards. “Romano” has concealed a machine gun under his cloak and opens fine on a man in uniform. Illuminated windows are visible in the background. The partisan in the far left of the picture is shown striking a uniformed man with a hammer whilst holding a pistol in his other hand.
Label reads “240”: signed by the author; caption reads (2o) UDINE ... e’ il momento di agire, sotto l’ampio mantello scuro, sbuca improvvisa [sic] un mitra, e con la sua infallibile mira, dal suo unico braccio, sgrana il rosario di morte, abbattendo il maresciallo e i suoi uomini...”.
Caption translates as: “(2) Udine… Time for action. An assault rifle emerged from a wide, dark cloak. Being a sharp-shooter, using his only arm, he moves his fingers through the beads of deadly rosary, killing the marshal and his men…”.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010097
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Udine
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Filiputti, Angiolino. Inmates in the Udine prison are liberated by partisans
arts and crafts
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/27/187/PFilliputtiA16010098.2.jpg
b834f15defa6166c1aa3e2a0f6a51afa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Filiputti, Angiolino
Angiolino Filiputti
Alfonsino Filiputti
A Filiputti
Description
An account of the resource
127 items. The collection consists of a selection of works created by Alfonsino ‘Angiolino’ Filiputti (1924-1999). A promising painter from childhood, Angiolino was initially fascinated by marine subjects but his parents’ financial hardships forced an end to his formal education after completing primary school. Thereafter, he took up painting as an absorbing pastime. Angiolino depicted some of the most dramatic and controversial aspects of the Second World War as seen from the perspective of San Giorgio di Nogaro, a small town in the Friuli region of Italy. Bombings, events reported by newspapers, broadcast by the radio or spread by eyewitnesses, became the subject of colourful paintings, in which news details were embellished by his own rich imaginings. Each work was accompanied by long pasted-on captions, so as to create fascinating works in which text and image were inseparable. After the war, however, interest in his work declined and Angiolino grew increasingly disenchanted as he lamented the lack of recognition accorded his art, of which he was proud.
The work of Angiolino Filiputti was rediscovered thanks to the efforts of Pierluigi Visintin (San Giorgio di Nogaro 1946 – Udine 2008), a figurehead of the Friulan cultural movement, author, journalist, screenwriter and translator of Greek and Latin classical works into the Friulan language. 183 temperas were eventually displayed in 2005 under the title "La guerra di Angiolino" (“Angiolino’s war”.) The exhibition toured many cities and towns, jointly curated by the late Pierluigi Visintin, the art critic Giancarlo Pauletto and Flavio Fabbroni, member of the Istituto Friulano per la Storia del Movimento di Liberazione (Institute for the history of the resistance movement in the Friuli region).
The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Anna and Stefano Filiputti, the sons of Angiolino Filipputi, for granting permission to reproduce his works. The BCC Digital Archive is also grateful to Alessandra Bertolissi, wife of Pierluigi Visintin, Alessandra Kerservan, head of the publishing house Kappa Vu and Pietro Del Frate, mayor of San Giorgio di Nogaro.
Originals are on display at
Biblioteca comunale di San Giorgio di Nogaro
Piazza Plebiscito, 2
33058 San Giorgio di Nogaro (UD)
ITALY
++39 0431 620281
info.biblioteca@comune.sangiorgiodinogaro.ud.it
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Filiputti, A-S
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Inmates in the Udine prison being liberated by partisans. Part 3
Description
An account of the resource
Partisans are greeted and cheered by inmates, while three figures are running in the background. The partisan “Romano”, in dark cloak and wide-brimmed hat, is featured prominently in the middle of the composition being hugged by a kneeling prisoner.
Label reads “241”; signed by the author; caption reads “(3o) UDINE…I Gappisti penetrano nelle prigioni e liberano 150 reclusi e i 15 condannati a morte”.
Caption translates as: “(3) Udine… The members of the Patriotic Action Group infiltrated into the prisons and freed 150 prisoners as well as 15 people sentenced to death.”
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFilliputtiA16010098
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Angiolino Filiputti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Alessandro Pesaro
Helen Durham
Giulia Banti
Maureen Clarke
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One tempera on paper, pasted on mount board
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Udine
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-02-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Artwork
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Filiputti, Angiolino. Inmates in the Udine prison are liberated by partisans
arts and crafts
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/59/519/AAn00659-160808.2.mp3
4fc7f81d36d1cc8f18e84612642a7b8f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
A survivor of the Karigador bombing
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
An00659
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with an informant who recollects his wartime experiences in the Verteneglio Brtonigla area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-08
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Pietro Commisso: Sono Pietro Comisso e sto per intervistare [omitted] per l’archivio dell’International Bomber Command Centre. Siamo a Monfalcone, è il 08 08 2016. Grazie [omitted] per aver permesso questa intervista. Sono presenti Pietro Commisso e [omitted]. Prima di cominciare, vorrei farle alcune domande per essere sicuro che questa intervista venga registrata come desidera. È d’accordo che la sua intervista venga conservata presso l’Università di Lincoln, esclusivamente per scopi non commerciali, che l’università di Lincoln ne abbia il copyright e infine essere liberamente accessibile in qualsiasi formato per mostre, attività di ricerca, istruzione, e come risorsa online?
Bombing survivor: Sì
PC: È d’accordo che il suo nome venga pubblicamente associato all’intervista?
BS: No
PC: È d’accordo di essere fotografato per l’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre?
BS: No, no, no.
PC: Ehm, mi dica qual è il suo ricordo più vecchio riguardante i bombardamenti aerei della seconda guerra mondiale.
BS: Dunque, sé una mattina, ‘desso non me ricordo proprio il giorno naturalmente, sarà stà aprile, penso così, circa no, eh [pause] mio zio coso mi ha detto che giù, in Carigador si chiama il posto, ghe sé una nave tedesca che sé piena di de robe dentro, de mangiare, de letti, tavole, e materas, di tutte le cose immaginabili, era dento di tutto insomma. Poi, sono ‘ndato giù in strada, era un mio cugino, li ho detto se mi porta giù con la bicicleta, perché io non, per forza non avevo la bicicleta [laughs], me ga portà giù, se vemo trovado là, eh, via le scarpe, i pantal, le braghe insomma, i pantaloni, semo ‘ndati a portar fora la roba di, tutte le robe, però era un pericolo [emphasis] naturalmente che venivi i apparecchi, esatto. Abbiamo messo due mie cugine di, come se disi, se le vedi magari i apparechi che vien lì: tut un momento le comincia a ziga’: ‘Aiuto, apparechi, apparechi!’. Scampa fori naturalmente de coso che era l’omo là per portar fora le cose, no, dunque, vignindo fora me son messo un bel ciodo sul, sul coso che era una tavola, che era una tavola, dà un scosson, e siamo ‘ndat, era un mio amico, ‘desso non me ricordo gnanca il nome, e siamo ‘ndati una siepe, semo nascosti là; passa il primo, era quatro, quatro caccia naturalmente, l’ha comincià a bombardar, bombardar e mitragliar, naturalmente no; te digo come te disevo prima anche, a non so, due, tre metri via de noi, era ste bombe che, che passava, iera, i fazeva dei solchi veramente, guarda, de veder, sì sì iera pericoloso veramente. Bon, finito il tutto [pause], siamo ‘ndati a per portar via non so, mi pare le scarpe, i pantaloni, le bombe sono cascate non sulla bar, sulla nave, sul, sul, come si disi?
PC: Bagnasciuga.
BS: Sul bagnasciuga no, pantaloni, no sé scarpe, no sé niente, tutto perso [laughs], e dopo siamo ‘ndati via naturalmente, che sé vegnudi, poco via che iera, che iera i frati ‘ndai da là, di Carigador, sé vignudi là a veder se sé qualcuno ferìo, morti naturalmente per, nissuno, tutto a posto, e te digo, el primo, el primo coso, bombardier, gà comincià: ‘Booom!’, bombe, te schizzava, te vedevi tutto, e mitragliava naturalmente; il secondo pure, il terzo uguale, il quarto uguale. Il quarto, i sé ‘ndadi via, basta, finito tutto. Dopo cossa volessi dir ‘ncora?
PC: Quale potrebbe essere la sua esperienza in quanto bambino, ragazzo?
BS: Sì bambino, tredici anni, cosa vuoi.
PC: La sua, la sua esperienza, anche con i suoi coetanei, lei mi diceva che, c’era la vedetta, c’era, riguardo i bombardamenti c’è anche altri ricordi? Come l’ha, come l’ha vissuta, la, la, questo pericolo dei bombardamenti?
BS: L’ho vissuta male, guarda veramente male, perché era il periodo che era, de note iera [pause], come se ciama?
PC: I partigiani.
BS: I partigiani, naturalmente, e di giorno i tedeschi e coso, ma gavemo passà guarda [sigh]. Ho pasado male, veramente, iera stai bruti quei anni là, ma molto bruti, molto molto, eh sì [pause]. Cosa dovessi dir ancora?
PC: Durante gli allarmi cosa succedeva?
BS: Dunque, guarda, come allarmi là da noi no esisteva perché iera il paese piccolo che si chiama Fiorini, che son nato in Fiorini io, allarmi no i ‘iera. Iera altri, me ricordo bene anche un altro coso, che poco via da ‘ndo che son nato mi, anche i ga butà giù i tedeschi un apparechio, inglese naturalmente, semo ‘ndati là a veder se era bulloni de coso, a veder, iera morto il pilota che iera, coso [unclear], un periodo molto brutto, eh!
PC: Fasso un’ultima domanda: dopo tutti questi anni che sé passadi, come la se pone nei confronti de, questi fatti insomma, questo pericolo che veniva dal cielo? Nel fatto de esser l’obbiettivo, esser stado l’obbiettivo de un, de un attacco aereo proprio.
BS: [sigh] Cossa devo dir?
PC: Come che la sé, cossa che la pensa de questo fatto?
BS: Bah, il fatto iera che iera molto brutto quei anni là, molto brutti, perché de giorno, ripeto, iera i tedeschi, il periodo ’40, ’41, ’42, ’43, coso, de noto, e de note i, i partigiani.
PC: Go capìo.
BS: Che i sé vignudi anche a casa mia, se pol dir, posso dir questo?
PC: Sì.
BS: Alora, spetta, sé una sera, ‘na note, sé vignudi i partigiani naturalmente, a casa mia. Batti la porta, ‘Chi sé?’, ‘Partigiani’, mia mama sé ‘ndada a aprir naturalmente, perché se no, ehi. Dise ‘Qua sé gente, dove sé i omeni?’, ‘ E perché?’ la ghe dise, ‘Perché i deve vignir con noi.’, ‘Mah, guardi, i omeni no i sé parché de giorno i sé i tedeschi che i ga fatto restrell, restrellamento, i se ga sconto; eh, no savemo n’altri dove che i sé’; perché mio papà, mio zio e un altro signor iera sconti in un, fa conto una parete così, da l’altra parte g’era l’altra familia, iera fatto un coso, così un, come se disi, come, grande come l’assensor dentro…
PC: Un nascondiglio.
BS: Esatto, un nascondiglio, te capissi però ‘l nascondiglio iera basso no, e iera mess un casson di farina, paria che roba; alora, sé vignui dentro, me ricordo benissimo, sé vignudi in camera mia, che mi dormivo con mio nono, sé vignudi, bon, butar via le coperte naturalmente visto che son fioi, mio nono vecchio naturalmente, sé andai in un’altra camera, ‘Dove i sé i omeni?’, ‘No i sé’ ghe ga dito mia moglie, ga dito, cioè la prima camera iera un mio zio, ghe ha dito ‘No sé meio che no ‘ndedi dentro perché ‘l sé un pochetin matto, sé meio’, che no iera vero niente, fortuna che no i sé ‘ndadi dentro, bon: ga visità dapertuto, i sé ‘ndadi , in soffitta coso, una casa grande de tre piani, ga visità de tuto, i sé ‘ndai in soffitta e dentro i ga trovà giacchettoni, roba, i ga portà via tutto, giacche, camice, tut i ga portado via. Quei iera, Madonna! Eh sì!
PC: D’accordo, io la ringrazio e, per la testimonianza.
BS: Quei tempi de coso, te digo mi, guarda che iera, iera molto brutti! Cos’ che me ga tocà a mi. Quasi meio che me ne stago zito, no digo niente.
PC: La ringrazio.
BS: Sì.
PC: La ringrazio per l’intervista.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with a survivor of the Karigador bombing
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
The informant recalls the day when he and his cousin plundered a ship with a cargo of furniture, clothing and foodstuffs, which was moored at Karigador. He describes how the harbour was suddenly bombed and strafed. Remembers how they hid behind a hedge and realised that the bombs didn’t hit the ship but the shoreline, leaving a large hole in the sand. Mentions nuns from a nearby convent looking for wounded or dead people.
Mentions a group of partisans showing up at his home, asking aggressively for men ready to join the resistance movement. Describes how his father, his uncle and a friend remained hidden, while the partisans ransacked the house for items of clothing.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pietro Commisso
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Marco Dalla Bona
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:09:53 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Croatia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAn00659-160808
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/449/7929/AAn01104-170712.2.mp3
600fee69fe4502282f43fa0cc4fcd754
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
A survivor of the Voghera bombings (informant C)
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with an informant who recollects his wartime experiences in Voghera.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
An01104
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with a survivor of the Voghera bombings (informant C)
Description
An account of the resource
The informant recollects his wartime experiences in Voghera. Claims he has always had the gift of sensing impending events, the first episode being when he told his mother that aircraft are approaching before the siren had sounded, and therefore managed to go out moments before a bomb hit the house. Describes himself and his mother running among bombs falling, being denied shelter in a doorway on the grounds it was already packed, and how many people were killed in the same bombing. Mentions wartime anecdotes: riding an American tank, the death of Franco Forini, a friend mutilated by live ammunition as he was gathering for scrap and his mother picking up grain left in the fields after the harvest. He praises her humanity, resolution and cheerfulness.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:11:17 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAn01104-170712
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Voghera
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending OH transcription
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Resistance
shelter
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/65/712/PLandiniA1701.1.jpg
001ec8c722231327528ac2961e019a43
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/65/712/ALandiniA170414.1.mp3
dcedbc7d60c892e75dcb123ec725e74f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Landini, Adriano
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Adriano Landini who recollects his wartime experiences in Reggio Emilia.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Landini, A
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Giulia Bizzarri. The interviewee is Adriano Landini. The interview is taking place in [sic] Institute for history of resistance and contemporary history in Reggio Emilia - ISTORECO on 14th of April 2017. Allora intanto se ci vuole parlare un po’ di lei quindi intanto qualche qualche dato anagrafico: nome, cognome.
AL: Dunque io mi chiamo Landini Adriano, ho fatto le scuole medie serali, son nato nel 1930 e a quest’epoca ho 87 anni da compiere, ma siamo già su quell’età lì. Sono nato in Reggio Emilia, ho vissuto nel quartiere più popolare di Reggio, il popol, il famoso popolo giusto. È quella zona dove c’è anche l’Istoreco lì via Roma, via Franco Tetto, via Bellaria e io all’epoca, all’epoca ero già un ragazzino durante la guerra, la guerra comincia nel ’40 e già nel ’42, ’43, dodici tredici anni ma a quell’epoca eravamo già ometti perché siamo come adesso quelli che fuggono dalle guerre, perché qua c’era la guerra, i bombardamenti, c’era la fame, c’era il tesseramento perciò noi ragazzi cercavamo dappertutto da mangiare, più di tutto. E poi avevamo paura perché bombardamenti, mitragliamenti, già cominciavano a esserci e c’era il pericolo, ma eravamo un po’, eravamo un po’ ragazzi, un po’ un po’ non dovevamo, era quasi un divertimento scappare quando c’erano i mitragliamenti, nasconderci così. E questo è, è l’epoca in cui ho cominciato, parlo degli undici, tredici anni, di quello che è stato il corso della mia vita per arrivare a questo, questo momento. Poi finisce la guerra, io dalla guerra, siccome durante la guerra le scuole erano chiuse, perché eravamo nella zona dei, dei combattimenti, c’era la Linea Gotica era lontana 30 chilometri da noi e pertanto le scuole erano chiuse. Io fino all’epoca avevo fatto solo fino alla quarta e dovevo fare la quinta e a quindici anni quando finisce la guerra, nel ’45, per andare a lavorare ci voleva la quinta, per avere il libretto di lavoro e io feci un corso serale per fare la quinta perché senza la licenza di quinta non potevo avere il libretto di lavoro. Avuto il libretto di lavoro, fino a 17, 18 anni si è sempre fatto un po’ di tutto, ho fatto il garzone di da muratore, ho fatto il garzone sulle strade, ho fatto il garzone tappezziere tutto quello che mi capitava per guadagnare, quello che sta succedendo adesso per quelli che vengono da fuori, un po’ queste quel che vengono dall’est per cercare lavoro. E siccome son rimasto ferito durante la guerra da una bomba a mano ero una vittima di guerra, una vittima civile di guerra ed ero iscritto all’associazione che tutelava e difendeva questi, questi feriti e questi e anche i morti perché c’erano le vedove, c’erano gli orfani e qui venne fuori una legge nel ’50, nel ’49 dove c’era l’obbligo di assumere, ogni genere il 2% di questi invalidi o mutilati di guerra. E io fui, fui uno di quelli che ho potuto usufruire di questa, di questa legge. E mentre tutti i miei amici che andavano, che sono stati in Australia, in Francia, in Belgio, andavano in Belgio in miniera, andavano via a cercare da lavoro, io son rimasto qua pur avendo fatto domanda anche io per andare via, andare in Australia. Nel frattempo vengo vengo in questo ufficio che c’era già questo ufficio di collocamento per i mutilati e invalidi di guerra, il cosiddetto OMNI, OMNI, e c’era da scegliere, mentre ero qua che chiedevo se c’era qualcosa, qualche lavoro da fare arriva uno che dice che cercano un fattorino dalla ditta Fratelli Lari pellami grezzi. Io prendo al volo questa informazione che parlava con l’impiegato e sono andato subito a quella ditta là, dove mi han preso in prova. Eravamo i primi di ottobre, e siamo arrivati che ‘Può cominciare domani’, ma per cominciare ci voleva, dovevo avere la bicicletta e io la bicicletta non l’avevo, avevamo, non si mangiava, a casa mia si mangiava quando capitava, non è che ci fosse lo stipendio perché ero ero figlio di una vedova, mia mamma, mia mamma, avevo quattro fratelli ma io ero disoccupato, non guadagnava niente nessuno, mia mamma faceva qualche lavorettino in giro per mangiare, pertanto noi i pasti si, si saltavano parecchie parecchie volte. E mi dissero ‘Puoi venire, cominciare anche domani ma devi venire in bicicletta perché come fattorino ti devi spostare’, io la bicicletta non l’avevo. Chiedo in giro se qualcheduno c’ha una bicicletta da prestarmi, una ragazza che allora frequentavo così come amici, la mamma mi dice che era, aveva molta simpatia nei miei riguardi ‘Ti do la bicicletta di mio marito’. Ma io voglio dare qualcosa, non la voglio per niente la bicicletta, dice ‘Beh me la paghi’ abbiamo combinato il prezzo che era una cifra da poco ‘Me li dai poi quando hai i soldi poco alla volta’. E andai il giorno dopo a lavorare, erano i primi di ottobre e mi dicono ‘Se va bene entro il mese la assumiamo in novembre’. Siccome, io che avevo vissuto in un quartiere popolare dove, dove un ragazzino era un uomo, quando andai in questa ditta per loro ero un fenomeno, quando dicevano qualcosa non facevano micca in tempo a dirlo che era già fatta perché mi, tutti i buchi li conoscevo, ero molto pratico. E il 20 di quel mese lì mi dicono che mi assumono perché vado bene, questa è la storia di lavoro, arrivato su questo punto dico con questa ditta, comincio da fattorino, non sapevo neanche scrivere bene, avevo mica nessuna una cultura, facevo dei numeri che non li sapevo neanche leggere io, e lì tutto un lavoro di numeri, si dovesse far dei numeri, far delle distinte così, e cominciai mentre facevo il fattorino nei tempi liberi, un libretto come questo, un notis [sic], riempivo tre pagine di 1, tre pagine di 2 fino ho imparato a fare i numeri. E lì comincio a lavorare, comincio a guadagnare e nel frattempo io facevo anche dello sport, facevo molto il nuoto e corsa a piedi abbiam fatto una combinata a Reggio dove io arrivai primo nella corsa a piedi e terzo nel nuoto, era una combinata provinciale. Allora venni scelto per mandarmi a Roma a fare i giovani, perché lì cercavano, anche perché andar via c’era da mangiare, da vivere, che casa mia si saltava i pasti. E andai a Roma come giovane per fare il pentatlon moderno. Il pentathlonmoderno son cinque gare: nuoto, corsa, equitazione, scherma e pistola. Perciò io andavo a Roma, a Roma mi pagavano tutto un albergo, mi davano le quote da, allora io ho cominciato nel nel ’48, ’49, ’50, nel ’50 addirittura che c’era l’Anno Santo mi davano anche 500 lire, allora 500 lire per la colazione e il trasporto. Per me erano soldi da prender quelli lì. E e io andai per tre volte a Roma, l’Aquila, Napoli come allenamento collegiale. Per me era era un’avventura che, mi pagavn tutto, mi davan sempre attrezzatura [sic] che quando ritornavo dalla, dagli allenamenti collegiali gliela vendevo per prendere un po’ di soldini. E questa è un po’ la pratica come sportiva per cui torno al lavoro. Negli anni ’51 mi chiedono se vado a Roma a seguire la squadra nazionale come giovane e dovevo perdere un mese di lavoro. Io ho detto ‘No’ ho rinunciato a tutto perché per me un posto fisso, dove tutti i mesi prendevo uno stipendio mi interessava di più che lo sport. E allora ho smesso con lo sport, andavo a fare lo stesso a nuoto così ma non più non più agonismo. Nella ditta proseguo per arrivare, fino all’ ’87, ‘50 ’87: fino a 37 anni di lavoro. In quell’epoca da fattorino sono diventato, mah parlo anche in fretta io che bisogna di parlare più piano, dirigente alla produzione, cioè ho fatto una carriera bellissima, i tempi sono stati favorevoli, il lavoro l’ho imparato perché ho incominciato proprio da da, da sotto quasi come operaio solo che prendevo dei numeri così, ho fatto carriera, e a 37 anni ancora da compiere, perché sono andato in pensione in giugno, sono andato in pensione perché con la pensione che percepivo allora, che allora c’era anche un tetto sulla pensione, io prendevo la pensione la pensione più alta che c’era, che c’era un tetto che mi pare che fossero un, due milioni e settecento mila lire, perché c’era i milioni allora. Un operaio guadagnava sugli ottocento euro, erano tre stipendi, e io ho detto posso lavorare, posso vivere senza lavorare, non lavoro, non faccio più niente, il lavoro non posso più far niente, mi licenzio. L’azienda era i dirigenti i padroni che diventavano anziani, perciò dovevi sempre trattare coi nipoti, o con i generi che non capivano niente di lavoro perché io c’ero nato dentro, comunque fino a quando ho un potere nell’azienda sono rimasto e poi son venuto via. Prima di venire via, sei mesi prima, tolsi il mio numero di telefono dalla guida perché le concorrenti, le ditte concorrenti mi offrivano un sacco di soldi per fare questi lavori ma io avevo proprio chiuso col lavoro perché potevo vivere senza lavorare. E c’erano già tutte, e poi son venuto, son venuto in questa associazione, che ero già consigliere ma venivo ogni tanto, e dall’ ’82 facevo anche il presidente perché era morto il presidente, e facevo ero vice presidente e ho preso la carica per fare il presidente. E poi ho dedicato il mio tempo, perché deve pensare che vado in pensione giovane, avevo già una figlia, un nipote e tutta una storia dietro, e di dedicarmi all’associazione perché se ero arrivato a quel punto era merito di questa legge venuta fuori nel ’50. Questa è un po’ la storia fino a quando vado in pensione, pensione poi, nell’ ‘87 vado in pensione do molta attività all’associazione, allora l’associazione era molto viva, si facevano pratiche, tre quattro alla settimana, c’era un’impiegata, ma io imparai molto da questa impiegata, praticamente questa impiegata va in pensione perché c’è, c’è stato nel ’78 questi enti morali da pubblici sono diventati privati. Perciò prima i dipendenti erano pagati dallo stato poi dovevamo pagarli noi, cioè pagarla l’associazione con con le deleghe che ci davano gli associati ma erano pochi soldini, non ci si stava dentro e lei è andata in pensione perché aveva la possibilità di anticiparla al pensionamento perché c’era questa legge. E io son rimasto qua a far l’impiegato a far tutto, siam partiti con molto lavoro poi piano piano son diventato consigliere nazionale nell’80, nel ’93, ci sono stato fino al 2011 consigliere nazionale, poi da consigliere nazionale perché a 80 anni ho detto ‘Smetto di fare consigliere nazionale perché si viene eletti quattro anni per quattro anni e se vengo qua per far solo numero non vengo’, perché io sono di quelli che dice: se c’ho un progetto dice ‘armiamoci e partimo’ ma io son sempre in testa, sono di quelli che quando c’hanno un problema da risolvere mi metto in testa e fin che non l’ho risolto non lo mollo mai, perciò è impegnativo e ho detto ‘Io non, non mi metto, non mi candido più come consigliere, mi, non ne voglio più sapere’. Tanto è vero che a Roma in quel momento, nel congresso del 2011 hanno inventato il collegio dei saggi per tener dentro quei tre o quattro personaggi che uscivano per l’età perché avevamo un’esperienza e siamo rimasti come saggi. E ancora tutt’oggi sono un saggio della presidenza nazionale e vengo anche disturbato parecchie volte perché quando ci sono questi problemi che non si sa dove andare chiedono sempre il parere a me e ad altri due o tre che siamo quelli che han vissuto una vita dentro la presidenza nazionale. Questa la faccenda come vittima civile di guerra. Naturalmente essendo stato, sono anche un partigiano, perché sempre nel ’43, nella caserma Zucchi che adesso c’è l’università, c’era in viale, nel viale della circonvallazione c’era un, un locale sotto terra dove c’erano i magazzini, e lì c’erano delle delle grate grosse quasi diciamo 3 centimetri. Buongiorno Laura.
Unknown speaker: Buongiorno, posso?
GB: Prego continui.
AL: E allora diventai partigiano per questa ragione, ve la spiego come è successo. Io guardavo dentro a queste cantine, vedevo delle cassette bianche e io pensavo sempre a cercare da mangiare, eravamo durante la guerra nel ’43, e io di notte che c’è il coprifuoco, con un seghetto di ferro, ho tagliato questa grata per andare a rubare queste cassette, c’ho avuto quattro o cinque notti per fare questo qua perché c’era la guardia che girava sul muro avanti e indietro e quando si allontanava poi dopo. A un dato momento ho fatto il buco, prendo fuori due cassetti e poi attraverso via Alleghieri [Allegri] che c’era il parco del popolo i giardini pubblici che lì durante la guerra non si facevano potature niente, era quasi una giungla, c’era delle delle siepi così, che noi ci giocavamo come come ragazzi. Vado fuori, porto fuori due cassette e quando ho portato la seconda voglio guardare cosa c’è dentro. Come apro la cassetta ci sono dei caricatori di moschetti, c’è pallottole di moschetto. Allora io cosa faccio: copro tutto, non ci vado più là perché a me interessava il mangiare. In quartiere si sapeva chi era fascista o chi era partigiano, oppure chi aveva simpatia per uno o per l’altro. Io allora sapevo che un certo Franco, Mazzali Franco, adesso so anche il cognome ma lo sapevamo anche loro, dico ‘Veh Franco’ gh’ho det ‘Mè success cost questo e questo, se vuoi andare a prendere oppure dire ai partigiani che c’è il buco là che possono andar dentro a prenderne delle altre se no dentro in quel posto là c’è delle foglie, sotto ci son due cassette’. ‘Cosa dici?’ mi dice lui ‘Cosa dici?’ Io non sono niente, non voglio neanche sapere’. Morale: si chiude la partita lì delle cassette. Finita la guerra, nel ’45, fine ’45 inizio ’46 mi arriva a casa una lettera dove sono riconosciuto partigiano per la lotta di Liberazione. Leggo le motivazioni dove c’è scritto quello che è successo: questo Mazzali ha portato queste cassette, le ha portate in montagna e ha, e ha relazionato come sono avvenute eh, poi andai a prendere questo e quest’altro e allora questa è stata una manovra che m’han riconosciuto perché ho portato delle armi e ho rischiato la vita anche se la mia mente era lì, ma il discorso che viene dopo è che potevo scegliere di andare dai fascisti, e sono andato lì allora sai c’era la liberazione c’era, eran molto riconosciuti i partigiani e allora questo riconoscimento cosa c’è da dire? Che l’ANPI aveva fatto una mensa che era in via San Rocco, dove davano da mangiare a mezzogiorno, una testa, tanti pasti, per tre o quattro mesi. Io quando andavo a prendere la roba di una settimana, me la facevo dare in natura, e la portavo a casa. Non andavo a mangiare lì perché così mangiavano anche anche i miei i miei sorelle, le mie sorelle. E questa è la storia del partigiano, e diventai partigiano, ma partigiano poi dopo di riferimento sei anche combattente perché se sei per terra [unclear] sei anche riconosciuto come combattente [unclear] perciò adesso mi trovo a questa età: partigiano, vittima civile di guerra e combattente. Ma diciamo, a voi che avete imparato la storia com’è. E poi dopo siam arrivati, siam arrivati per questa storia del lavoro poi quello di partigiano, dello sport ne ho accennato così velocemente ma io ero arrivato fino a essere, essere convocato per le olimpiadi del ’64, ’54, così come giovane ma non sono andato perché dovevo stare a casa da lavorare un mese e per me interessava più il lavoro che la faccenda.
GB: Ci può raccontare un po’ della sua vita proprio anche in gioventù, quando lei ha raccontato questo questo episodio della sua vita da partigiano, ma anche proprio la sua vita in gioventù quando poi scoppiò la guerra.
AL: Per arrivare lì. Cioè perché io abitavo in un quartiere Santa Croce, il cosiddetto quartiere popol giost allora che c’era il tesseramento, non c’era da mangiare, non c’era la legna, non c’era niente perché eravamo tutti isolati. Io da bambino, da ragazzo perché 10, 11 anni andavamo a rubare la legna, da lì voleva andare in campagna e di notte c’era sempre chiuso. Le case dei contadini ragionavano in questo modo allora: sentivan del rumore, se eran partigiani tacevano perché pensavan fossero fascisti, se eran fascisti pensavan ai partigiani, perciò noi, giocando su questa mentalità andavamo dietro le case dei contadini che c’era gli alberi con i pali della luce, i pali per tenere su le viti perché allora c’era in campagna non c’era i vigneti come ci sono adesso, c’erano degli olmi, degli alberi e le viti erano attaccati da un albero all’altro e ci mettevano, quando c’era la frutta, l’uva matura mettevano dei pali per tenere su la vite perché c’è appeso, e questi pali finita la vendemmia, li portavano dietro casa [unclear] vicino a un albero. Noi di notte andavamo lì caricavamo il carretto di questi pali, rubavamo, e poi andavamo in vicolo Venezia, c’era Zanti allora che era un falegname che però aveva un macchinario grosso, tagliavamo la legna e la vendavamo, perché come andavi fuori col carretto di legna c’era chi comprava la legna perché, e la legna la vendavamo per il valore che c’era allora e coi soldi che si prendeva portavamo portavamo a casa per mangiare, questa è un pochino la storia da 10 a 12, 13 anni. E poi c’era che di, io avevo un cugino che era della polizia ferroviaria, un giorno mi dice che ‘Stanotte passa una tradotta di carri dove ci sono delle patate sopra, tu vai lì a quell’ora che ci sono io di guardia, puoi rubare le patate ma non tagliare il telone del vagone’. Io di notte vado lì, slego il tendone col caretto lo riempio di patate. Le patate allora era oro, era una cosa, c’era il pane e le patate. In pratica saran stato due quintali di patate tutte prese dal camion dal vagone con una borsa sul carro, sul carretto. Andato a casa, le metto tutte sotto il letto, perché c’era 20 centimetri di patate sotto il letto perché, oh, era oro! La mia famiglia era sfollata a Rivalta, perché durante la guerra siam stati sfollati a Rivalta e a Sesso, però io pran delle mattine ero sempre in città perché dovevo sempre cercare di procurare qualcosa, ero l’uomo di casa, c’era mia, la mia famiglia era formata da me, mia mamma, mia cognata che aveva poi, mio fratello era stato portato in Germania con una bambina e mia sorella con un figlio che suo marito era stato portato in America perché era un pilota ed era stato rimasto prigioniere in America. Perciò una famiglia di cinque o sei persone che si viveva con dei, di quei soldi che si prendeva facevamo il mercato nero, compravamo il sale a Salsomaggiore, andammo a Salsomaggiore in bicicletta, io e mia sorella, veniva in bicicletta con 20 o 30 chili di sale su la bicicletta. Ma venire a casa c’era da stare attenti perché se ti trova la polizia ti sequestravano la roba, perciò era. Questo qua e poi si veniva a Reggio, si vendeva il sale e coi soldi si andava a comprare la farina che solitamente c’è un mugnaio a San Polo che la vendeva, e andavamo a San Polo a pendere la farina. Si viveva in questo modo proprio si cercava in tutti i modi di vivere e tutto veniva da quei soldini che si prendevano a vedere la legna. Naturalmente prima di venderla allora riempivo la cantina per averla anche per noi durante la, durante la notte. Perciò durante la guerra con questi escamotage io era arrivato che a casa mia si mangiava abbastanza bene. La tessera ci interessava poco perché i soldi col mercato nero, un po’ con quelle patate lì si sbarcava il lunario. Mi ricordo che uno zio che ogni tanto veniva da me a chiedermi un po’ di legna, veniva con una bicicletta e un carrettino dietro, quelle quei tricicli dietro caricava un po’ di legna perché la trovava solo a casa mia la legna. E questo è quello che è successo lì. Ancora prima, sempre tornando indietro abitavamo in una casa in via Cavagni, che era il quartiere più maledetto di Reggio, delle prostitute, via San Pietro adesso c’è via, lì c’era via Cavagna, adesso non so come si chiama dove c’è il cinema Odeon, quella zona lì, e abitavamo lì. Il padrone ci ha ci ha ci ha mandato via perché non pagavamo l’affitto. Naturalmente viene i carabinieri [sic] che c’era allora, mettono il sigillo sulla porta e ci portano a Le Quattro Stagioni. Le Quattro Stagioni era un albergo che lì, dietro dove c’è, adesso c’è le Notarie, le Notarie come si chiama, lì, lì c’era l’albergo c’era Le Quattro Stagioni. Allora in quell’albergo lì era un po’ malfamato, quegli alberghi da poco c’era mia mamma e mia sorella che abitavan lì, che erano lì. L’altra cognata era andata a casa di sua mamma e io son mandato a casa del mio zio che avevo allora otto anni ed è stato l’unico periodo fino a quella età dove si mangiava da mio zio mattina pomeriggio, sera, faceva il fruttivendolo, frutta. Credo che siano stati i momenti più belli della mia vita, me li ricordo ancora adesso perché era raro che a mezzogiorno si mangiasse a casa mia e invece lì andavi a casa c’era tutto, sì, una famiglia normale era. Questo un episodio di quello che sto raccontando. E poi veniamo dopo al periodo di guerra naturalmente quando io andavo a legna, andavo a fare il mercato nero, perchè c’erano anche i bombardamenti, i mitragliamenti e voi capite che quando si andava in campagna, si andava a chiedere la legna ma noi le fascine, [unclear] si fatta una fascina, invece di prender una fascina prendavamo i pezzi di legna, perché interessava quelli. Ma quando viaggiavi sulle strade che allora le strade erano bianche, le macchine non ce n’era come c’è adesso, c’era una macchina ogni tanto poi, sulla strada si vedeva, ogni tanto venivano gli apparecchi, si buttava giù, mitragliavano si, noi andavamo dentro ai fossi, ci sdraiavamo lì ed è capitata una volta o due di queste cose ma di solito facevamo delle strade che erano un po’ protette dagli alberi stavamo attenti perché eravamo ragazzi ma eravamo molto con le antenne fuori e succedeva questo e i bombardamenti e mi mitragliamenti li abbiam provati tutti. Tanto è vero che già adesso guardiamo un pochino quelle, già i primi tempi nel ’43 c’è stato i primi bombardamenti in via Gorizia che l’obiettivo era la centrale elettrica in via Gorizia poi le bombe cadevano un po’ dappertutto in via Oslavia, in via via Gorizia, tutta quella zona lì, via Bainsizza era era quell’obiettivo in quella zona lì, e che poi la centrale non l’hanno mica presa, ma anche lì ci furono 7 morti e 11, 12 feriti, primo bombardamento in luglio del ’43. E noi li abbiam vissuti perché dove c’era del movimento eravamo noi ragazzi eravamo lì subito, i primi giorni eravamo già lì, appena il bombardamento si andava a vedere. Perché c’era sempre qualcosa da trovare, o un travetto di una casa che poi tagliavi per bruciare perché era questo. E questo qua è il primo bombardamento, e poi dopo, e poi dopo [pause] e poi dopo si arriva anche ai bombardamenti che ci sono stati il 7, l’8 gennaio. E quelli sono stati bombardamenti molto pericolosi ma sempre con lo spirito dei bambini come, bambino ragazzo come ero io che, era quasi divertimento perché, ci si pensava a tutto fuorché che venisse una bomba in testa, ma sentivi gli scoppi, questa era eravamo proprio dei dei, degli scugnizzi eravamo. E lì la sera del 7 gennaio, io abitavo in via Bellaria, sempre lì a Santa Croce, verso le otto e mezza, le nove ci stiamo, sentiamo l’allarme perché l’allarme suonava quattro o cinque volte al giorno, preallarmi erano, e si scappava da una parte e dall’altra e si correvano nei rifugi, e i rifugi all’epoca erano le scuole De Amicis, quelle che sono in via, via Leopoldo Nobili mi pare, quelle scuole lì c’era, una scuola di disegnatori, c’era le professionali e le commerciali, poi c’erano le elementari, e sotto lì che era un rettangolo si entrava da due parti, ma sotto si girava tutto questo questo perimetro, c’era dentro le panche, insomma un rifugio, proprio ce n’erano parecchi in giro di questi rifugi, anche nelle case private c’era la stemma con ‘rifugio che quando c’era un allarme potevi correre là dentro. E lì, col, scappiamo tutti, arriviamo tutti al, vediamo questo preallarme, ci facciamo fuori dalla finestra che c’è l’oscuramento, le finestre eran sempre chiuse perché i fascisti guardavano se c’era una finestra aperta, pensavano che tu facessi dei segnali agli apparecchi c’era anche il rischio di essere chiamati al fascio perché ogni quartiere c’era il fascio fascista. E un po’, un po’ come le chiese, che le chiese in ogni quartiere c’era una chiesa, questa qua è una cosa politica della vita che io ho capito col tempo. Eh, e lì i fascisti avevano messo un fascio per ogni quartiere, lì in via, in via, nella zona di via del Pozzo, via Mari c’era il il fascio. Il fascio era sempre al corrente di tutto perché c’eran le mogli dei fascisti che abitavano nel quartiere andavano a dire, questa qui è una brava persona ci puoi dare il pacco perché c’era il pacco per mangiare, il pacco Natale, era così come sono le dittature insomma, a quell’epoca. Allora lì venni, avemmo, abbiamo questi bombardamenti e siamo scappati tutti dentro questo rifugio. Il mattino ci alziamo, il 7 gennaio i bombardamenti colpirono la zona di via Roma, piazza San Prospero, l’ospedale, il mercato coperto, le carceri di San Tommaso ci furono un sacco di morti anche lì, l’ospedale Santa Croce fino alla via Antonio Veneri, fino dalle parti di là dalla ferrovia via Antonio Veneri. Questo fu il bombardamento del 7 della sera. Naturalmente per l’indole che avevamo, che avevo io che quando era al mattino uscivo di casa per cercare sempre qualcosa, mi ricordo bene che in viale Piave guardando dentro in fondo all’ospedale dalla parte di via Piave dove c’è adesso il campo del popolo dove c’è il monumento lì, lì c’era la camera mortuaria, portavano i morti, quella strada che dalla polizia va al carcere, va al il, [pause] va nel, la memoria ragazzi, scusate l’età ma è questo qua dove va nel parco del popolo, lì c’è quella strada che andava lì, in fondo era chiusa ma per, per i funerali, si andava lì per andare, partendo i funerali dall’ospedale, la camera mortuaria era proprio in fondo con un cancello che dopo lì c’era poi, adesso ci han fatto il parco. E lì guardando tra le mura, perché c’era una mura, bombardata, rotta, si vedevano i pezzi di morto lì, perché le bombe avevano colpito lì c’era un padiglione che costeggiava tutto dietro la chiesa dove c’erano i malati di polmoni quella roba lì che anche lì ci sono stati un sacco di morti. Io questa scena ce l’ho ancora in mente, perché andavo a vedere se c’era qualcosa, eravamo lì, e quando c’è un po’ di casino c’eri dentro e arriviamo lì e vidi questo. Poi a mezzogiorno suonò ancora l’allarme, suonò ancora l’allarme, si corre tutti all’ospedale, da notare poi che imparai col tempo che solo gli inglesi bombardavano di sera, gli americani no, gli americani di giorno e abbiamo saputo dopo che quelli della sera erano gli inglesi che avevano bombardato Reggio, che mi pare che fossero anche, beh sì colpirono via Roma, e non mi ricordo il numero degli apparecchi ma l’ho letto in qualche parte e mi pare che fossero una novantina di apparecchi che bombardarono la sera gli inglesi. A mezzogiorno invece suonò l’allarme dell’8 gennaio, come tutti tutti paura della sera corriamo tutti nei rifugi, e nei rifugi c’era tutto il gruppo familiare che oramai era lì ma io oramai ero sempre in giro per il rifugio per il, per il rifugio, siccome era molto largo, giravo da una parte all’altra. Cominciano i bombardamenti là proprio si ballava dentro a questo rifugio e mia mamma preoccupata perché siccome da un’ala all’altra c’erano anche 2 - 300 metri potesse scoppiare una bomba lì e non sapere niente e lì mi cercavano e io ero in girò là, il rifugio non è stato colpito, ma in quel bombardamento colpirono una casa lì, la zona Curti, in viale Piave, perché lì c’è da fare anche la storia. Viale Piave adesso dove c’è, dove c’è quel distributore lì c’era le case Curti e lì una bomba colpì in pieno un rifugio dove ci furono tanti morti, ma ma sempre lì che c’era di fronte, il foro boario allora era lì c’è, dove c’è adesso il, la la mutua quelle scuole lì, lì c’era il foro boario cioè c’era un capannone che chiudeva tutta la, recintato tutto con un cancello che di qua andava fino a via Monte San Michele fino in fondo. Una parte c’era un capannone tutto chiuso per i maiali e lì fuori c’eran tutte quelle transenne di vetro dove portavano le mucche, le mucche da vendere. E mi ricordo che all’epoca c’eran delle donne che giravano in mezzo a queste bestie che le mungevano, potevano prendere un po’ di latte perché le portavan lì per vendere potevano questo. Era questa era la scena che si viveva: si cercava da mangiare dappertutto. Queste sono scene che io ho vissuto e poi conoscevo anche le donne che andavano perché quando le vedevo ‘Am det un gos ed lat?’ [mi dai un goccio di latte?] prendevano un mescolino e mi davan da bere, questa era un po’ la storia. Questa la questione dei bombardamenti. Questi bombardamenti hanno fatto si che i morti sono stati circa 200, eh i morti furono tra feriti e morti circa 500 tra morti e feriti: 261 morti e 256 feriti, e questo lo so perché sempre l’attività che si faceva con l’associazione, noi abbiam chiesto, abbiam fatto un ossario nell’ospedale, nel cimitero, comunale questo che c’è qua in via Beretta, e abbiam l’ossario che son 244 celle per i, per i morti. Molti sono stati messi subito, sono stati raccolti dalle varie, dalle varie tombe poi li han portati lì, col tempo poi molte son state prese via le ossa che le han portate poi nelle sue, nelle tombe di famiglia ma ce n’è ancora delle cellule vuote ma c’è ancora l’ossario là che poi nel nel ’70 dopo quando l’ente è diventato pubblico, da pubblico a privato che non potevamo più mantenere questo ossario e l’abbiamo dato al comune perché sa c’era [unclear] la luce da pagare, c’era da tenerlo pulito. Fin quando e era pubblico mandavamo uno, faceva la fattura, si pagava, pagava lo stato, dopo dovevamo pagare noi, avevam mica i soldi, abbiamo fatto una convenzione col comune l’abbiamo donato al comune ma l’ossario è stato fatto dalle vittime civili di guerra. Quello quello che è successo è, tutti questi morti, su 261 una buona parte sono andati lì perché l’abbiam riempito, c’era rimasti sette otto vuoti erano di nostra competenza, potevamo darlo a chi volevamo ma non abbiamo poi fatto niente. Si potevan dare non so, poi quando è morta mia mamma potevo metterci mia mamma ma non lo abbiamo fatto perché era rimasto vuoto dall’inizio e non lo potevo occupare dopo perché fatti bellici non ci sono più stati dopo quel momento. E quella è la storia dei bombardamenti, e da quelli poi dopo col tempo con l’attività che ho fatto come presidente vittime civili di guerra, e con un grande impegno prima di tutto di Istoreco, ma allora c’era Orlandini che era direttore, avevamo un bel rapporto con Amos Monti anche, Amos Monti perché abbiamo cominciato con lui ad avere una attività con Istoreco poi son nati con Istoreco e con Istoreco è nato anche i Viaggi della memoria, ma i Viaggi della memoria bisogna dirlo perché son rimasti in poco, è stata un’iniziativa del presidente dell’ANPI allora Carretti si chiamava che è stato sindaco a Cadelbosco Sopra. Carretti e Landini, che sono io, non perché io avessi avuto l’idea ma siccome in questa in questa uffici c’erano i combattenti e reduci, i mutilati di guerra e gli invalidi civili di guerra e facevano parte della confederazione, e allora quando c’era da andare da qualche parte mi delegavano, i mutilati e i combattenti, di rappresentarli. Pertanto io in rappresentanza di questi tre uffici dell’associazioni combattentistiche e con Carretti abbiamo auto le prime riunioni in comune e in provincia, che allora c’era la Spaggiari come sindaco, nel ’95 cominciamo e si organizza il primo Viaggio della Memoria che viene fatto nel ’99. Siamo andati a Mauthausen, ma quel viaggio lì è stato tutto organizzato da Istoreco e l’Ampi prima di tutto, perché l’Ampi era già era già nel settore perché faceva quei viaggi e portava in giro della gente, faceva come un’impresa di viaggi, di viaggi. E allora organizza tutto l’Ampi ma tutto a spese di privati, qualche sponsor, in parte il comune e la provincia ma oggi nel 2017 è diventata un’istituzione, noi dall’epoca, dal 2000, dal 1999 questi Viaggi della memoria sono stati fatti tutti gli anni e più di 11 mila studenti di terza e quarta superiore son stati portati in giro per l’Europa e lo scopo di Caretti e il mio perché oramai era entrato nell’argomento era che si pensava ‘Questi qua sono i futuri dirigenti del paese, anche se un 10% di questa gente si ricorda quello che ha visto porteranno porteranno la memoria agli altri’. Questo era il nostro scopo e noi pensiamo di averlo risolto molto bene perché questa questa situazione continuerà per sempre e ogni anno si aggiunge mille persone, ma non le mille che si ripetono, non facciamo la storia dei 10 milioni di baionette che era sempre quel milione che girava, lì son sempre gente nuova e c’è sempre la mentalità, un torrente che corre, e questa è una grande soddisfazione. E io da quando poi ho cominciato a fare il dirigente delle le vittime civili di guerra, tutti tutti i posti che mi trovavo dicevo di questa esperienza fatta a Reggio che credo ce ne sia poche, perché molti fanno un viaggio da Auschwitz a Berlino, a Mauthausen a Dachau o a Buchenwald ma ci vanno per ‘na gita, roba di una giornata o due. Ma invece questo qua è diventata una istituzione, dove c’è sempre un argomento, sempre una ragione perché si fa questi viaggi, e si va sulla storia perché io che ho fatto, son stato tre volte a Berlino dal 2001, 2005, 2010 e si vede anche come si comportano in altri paesi, che vedi la differenza anche della mentalità dei popoli, perché. Io mi ricordo che Berlino del 2000 c’era la zona di Brandeburgo che andava giù, la parte sinistra tutta bombardata non c’era niente e si parla coi dirigenti da loro, dicevano ‘Qua ci sono dei progetti e si faranno in poco tempo’, nel 2005, dopo cinque anni era già stata tutta ricostruita, che ci han fatto tutte le varie ambasciate, di tutti i paesi perché era destinate a quelle, la Germania funziona così. Ma non solo le han progettate, in cinque anni son state fatte. E tutta questa zona che nel 2005, c’era uno spazio vuoto e chiedo il perché c’era questo spazio vuoto e quell’accompagnatrice ci dice ‘Perché lì è la zona del’, era la rappresentanza commerciale americana. Ma dican gli 800 metri, gli 800 metri, 800 metri a tutti, gli americani eran troppo poco, non lo volevan fare. Ma la Germania ha detto ‘Questo fate quello che volete’ poi dopo han fatto l’ambasciata da un’altra parte, lì han fatto una cosa commerciale, ma nel 2010 l’ha fatta anche quella. Ma nel 2005 si parlava del museo dell’Olocausto, quello che a sinistra di Brandeburgo, la questione della Shoa, ma nel 2010 era fatto ma è una cosa che se, bisogna vedere il volume del lavoro, poi abbiamo visto altrettante cose ma mi ricordo queste tre cose perché son passati cinque anni, passati cinque anni. E lì si diceva questo ‘Qui in Germania quando si fa qualcosa si programma, si fa le spese, e devon esser quelli, il tempo e le spese. E là funziona così non è come noi che quando comincia non ci son più soldi, se li han mangiato prima. Questa è un po’ quella storia che mette un po’, perché io non so se dobbiamo fare un’intervista sui bombardamenti o su quello che è successo da allora, perché stiam parlando un po’ di tutto, io salto un po’ da palo in frasca, ma.
GB: Beh se vuole torniamo un attimo sulla parte storica che lei ci raccontava e se le va anche di raccontarci un pochino com’era ehm l’atmosfera durante questi, non solo i bombardamenti ma proprio durante la guerra anche con la sua famiglia per esempio, come veniva percepito non so l’intervento degli alleati per esempio.
AL: Ma, si chiama Liberazione! Ma perché tutto il resto in quell’epoca era tutto, era tutto guidato da dal fascismo. Perché famiglie come le nostre che han bisogno di assistenza, voi pensate che io, sempre da bambino, avevo dieci anni, si andava a nuotare nella Modolena, ogni tanto ci son delle vasche che raccolgono la ghiaia e si andava a nuotare lì, si imparava a nuotare lì e siccome ho fatto anche gare di nuoto ho imparato a nuotare lì. Un giorno seduto sul muretto, vedo un ragazzo che si sta annegando, perché era più piccolo di me, io da [unclear] toccavo, lui no. Allora son saltato dentro con calzoncini e canottiera perché ero sempre scalzo, in aprile ero sempre scalzo. Salgo, lo porto, lo porto a riva, questo qua butta fuori l’acqua dopo, e va a casa. Va a casa e lo dice a suo padre quello che è successo. Suo padre lo dice al fascio, mi chiamano, mi danno una onoreficenza, mi fanno non non Balilla, ma Moschettiere, perché avevo fatto un atto, questo funzionava così allora le cose, bastava che tu facessi qualcosa a favore del fascismo che c’era già una corona intorno a te, era fatto così. E pertanto, queste cose io le ho vissute perché sono diventato, nel ’44, ma quando mi han chiamato il fascio mi han cominciato a dire ‘Perché tu non vieni al sabato fascista?’, io non sono mai andato al sabato fascista. Ma io non c’ho neanche i calzoni, non c’ho neanche la camicia, non c’ho il berretto con, non c’avevo niente. Allora, un buono dove c’è la GIL adesso, sotto c’era il magazzino del del dei fascisti, allora mi dan tutta la roba nuova: maglietta, cappello, ma non li ho mai messi perché dopo il ’44 [sic] scoppia il 25 luglio che allora eravamo sfollati assieme a casa di una nostra cognata a San Maurizio e mi ricordo bene questo 25 luglio che sempre come ragazzo, che io come mi alzavo dal letto e uscivo di casa ero ero uno sbandato. Andammo lì a San Maurizio dove c’era la casa, del popolo, casa fascista che c’era gente che portava via le macchine, da scrivere, le gomme così ecco, io non ho preso niente perché allora ero a casa di una famiglia che si dormiva in cinque in un letto, eravamo come degli zingari, ecco non c’era niente da rubare. Questo succede il 25 luglio del ’44 [sic], poi c’è l’8 settembre. L’8 settembre ero sfollato a Mancasale, al mattino vado da casa del contadino vado alla locanda di Sesso, che andavo a prendere qualcosa mentre vado lungo lungo la la strada, sempre strade di campagna, strade bianche, si andava a piedi, fare tre, quattro o cinque chilometri a piedi era cosa normale, non era che come adesso che ci vuole la bicicletta o la macchina. Mentre vado là viene fuori dal filare di di frumentone, di mais quelle piante lì, dei soldati che erano scappati dalla caserma Zucchi, erano cinque e andavano a prendere la stazione a Sesso, a Sesso c’era una stazione che li portava a Boretto così, perché loro si avvicinavano per andare a casa, erano milanesi. ‘Guardate che alla stazione c’è il posto di blocco, c’è i tedeschi là, vi portan via’ ‘Cosa facciamo?’ ‘Venite con me’. Li ho portati a casa di un contadino, i contadini allora in campagna, lontano da casa facevano i rifugi, facevano una buca li coprivano [unclear] guerra. Li porto a casa di questi contadini, questi contadini li vestono in borghese, ci dan della roba, in borghese poi allora eravamo in settembre bastava un paio di calzoni e una maglietta, c’era caldo allora, e questi qua mi ricordo che mi dicevan sempre ‘Quando è finita la guerra ti chiamiamo a Milano’ perché per un reggiano andare a Milano è come adesso andare a Casabianca insomma era così. E allora io ero contento perché avevo portato questi qua. Questo qua è successo l’8 di settembre era proprio quel giorno che è scoppiato, una giornata di sole mi ricordo la strada che facevo dove son venuti fuori. Son tutti episodi che nella vita li ho vissuti e mi son trovato, poi veniamo alla mia categoria di vittima civile di guerra, come rimasi, come rimasi ferito. Dunque, sempre tornando a quei ragazzi di strada, gli scugnizzi chiamiamoli adesso. Il 23 aprile del ’45, il 23, io un giorno prima so che le caserme sono state vuotate, i tedeschi e c’era i carabinieri, c’era il commando dei tedeschi li ho visti alla sera che facevano le colonne che andavano verso il Po perché scappavano, perchè c’era la Liberazione lì che arrivava. E uno, sempre questo Mazzali Franco mi dice che la caserma Zucchi c’è rimasto due soldati e basta perché son scappati tutti. Allora io che avevo fatto quel buco, sapevo che da lì potevo entrare dentro la caserma, io e altri due miei amici che adesso sono morti ‘Vin mèg c’andom’ [vieni con me che andiamo] perché nella parte dove adesso c’è l’università la parte proprio in fondo vicino alle mura, verso viale Piave verso diciamo la circonvallazione, lì c’era la cucina e poi c’era la caserma che aveva il capannone che adesso c’han fatto l’università. C’era la cucina allora da quel buco che l’abbiamo, loro l’avevano tappezzato in qualche modo allora l’abbiamo riaperto e da lì siamo andati in cucina, in cucina c’era ancora pezzi di formaggio, pezzi di roba perché, e poi c’era una camerata dove dormivano i cuochi. Io mi ricordo che i letti non erano fatti con i materassi, c’erano dei sacchi con dei, con delle, del pagliericcio dentro eran quelle, le cose delle delle pannocchie, quello delle pannocchie, che mettevano, quello lì era quello che ci mettevano dentro. Noi abbiamo vuotato tutte queste qua perché era stoffa, che allora non c’era neanche la roba lì. E abbiam cominciato prima rubandogli in cucina, poi abbiamo, siamo, questo qua succede il 23, due giorni prima del ’45 [sic]. Alla sera ci accorgiamo che possiamo andare anche oltre la la cucina perché c’erano quei capannoni che c’era dentro, cioè cui capannoni. Arriviamo, il primo capannone che c’era tutta roba da mangiare, il magazzino, e lì c’era: olio, farina, pasta, tutta roba da mangiare, e cosa succedeva, andiamo dentro, un sacco di farina che era mezzo quintale non riusciamo micca a portarlo, buttavo per terra e quella portammo fuori. Lo stesso era con l’olio, l’olio era troppo pesante vuotava per terra [unclear]. E lì ho cominciato a rubare, poi dopo le mie sorelle che erano a casa anche loro il 24, tutti tutti assieme a rubare. Il secondo capannone, quando vai dentro alla caserma, adesso lì c’è l’università, c’è un corridoio da una parte con un capannone e poi c’è un altro capannone. Quell’altra parte era tutta roba di vestiario, e lì sempre, ero sempre uno dei primi ad arrivarci perché ero stato, prima nella cucina, prima andavo di là con gli amici e con le mie sorelle, arriviamo in questo capannone che ci sono tutta roba di vestiario, sigarette, cuoio, tutta roba. Allora io vado con le mie sorelle col carretto perché il carretto rimaneva fuori con la mia sorella più giovane e quell’altra mia sorella portava fuori le robe sul carretto. Abbiamo fatto un carretto di roba portata a casa, che noi poi avevamo preso una camera, preso una camera vuota in via Franco Tetto dove per i bombardamenti avevamo pianto lì, abitavo in via Bellaria in un secondo piano vicino ai tetti. Andiamo là, ho riempito, in quella giornata abbiam riempito quella camera giù piena di roba. Venti cose di cuoio, sacchi di sigarette, sacchi di, perché riempivo un sacco di calzoni, calzoni coloniali, quella roba lì, nel ’44 [sic], nel, sì nel 24, il 23 è successo questo e sempre in questo movimento, questo qua ho sbagliato il 24, il 23, sempre il 23, ho cominciato il 22. Mentre faccio questo movimento c’è, portavo roba nel carretto, poi c’è una che mi dice che era la Caselli dice ‘Mi presti il carretto? Che mentre tu prendi la roba io vado a, porto a casa là’, perché via Bellaria era dall’altra parte dei giardini, roba di 10 minuti. Quando è finito tutto, che io avevo già fatto un sacco di roba con mia sorella più giovane lì che stava attenta alla roba portavan via tutto, le macchine, i copertoni, tutto tutto c’era proprio l’assalto alla dispensa insomma. Arrivato questo, io vado a cercare questa Caselli per farmi dare il carretto, c’è un gruppo di gente, vado a vedere, se lì, come arrivo lì scoppia, c’è uno della San Marco quei quei fascisti che avevano quel cappello fa scoppiare una bomba e io rimango ferito lì, è lì che rimango ferito, ferito alle gambe, poi la bomba è scoppiata per terra, c’era la ghiaia non c’era l’asfalto. Io ero scalzo, le scarpe le avevo legate vicino, scarpe da tennis perché allora era già, e si cercava di sciuparle poco perché dovevano fare due o tre annate, non è che te le portavi anno per anno. Mi portano all’ospedale con il rischio di togliermi, di tagliarmi le gambe, perché le gambe erano nere, con la polvere con il sangue così. Invece dopo una settimana mi mandano a casa perché c’era un pronto soccorso uno, di fianco al [Teatro] Municipale, e io abitavo in via Franco, in via Bellaria e da lì poi andar lì a piedi mi medicavano lì. Questa è la storia della mia ferita ecco. E poi come si viveva allora, ma si viveva alla giornata, lì mi ricordo che c’era un fascista che nel quartiere, era una brigata nera che diceva che ‘Se trovo un partigiano ci mangio il cuore’. Però quando c’era qualcosa, perché nei fascisti, lì nella zona di Santa Croce ‘al popol giost’ via Bellaria, via Franco Tetto, via Borgo Emilio, mettiamoci anche via Ferrari Bonini. Quando c’era i rastrellamenti, perché facevano spesso i rastrellamenti, appena appena arrivavano nella zona del quartiere lo sapevano già tutti, perciò non venivano più perché non ci trovavano mai nessuno, lì si passava da Franco Tetto a Borgo Emilio da una casa all’altra perché c’eran tutti i giri. Come c’eran in giro i fascisti che arrivavano perché cominciavano a chiudere le strade, la prima cosa che chiudevano nel quartiere non trovavano più nessuno, erano già andati tutti. E allora era un quartiere che era abbandonato a sè stesso e lì c’era questo fascista che quando c’era qualche problema perché prendevano un figlio, una cosa e l’altra, si andava da lui, lo chiamavano al tripulein, il tripolino perché lui veniva da Tripoli. Lui come brigata come brigata straniera [unclear] si faceva venire a casa, ma nel quartiere era conosciuto come una persona che faceva del bene a tutti, poi finita la guerra, dopo tre giorni è sparito e l’hanno ammazzato, perché chissà cosa ha fatto. Ma nel quartiere quando c’era qualche problema di natura politico così andavi da lui. E questo succedeva anche con la legna che andavo a rubare e tagliare. Questi gruppi di fascisti quando avevan bisogno di legna venivano a di via da Zanfi [unclear], sequestravano il carretto, ti portavano dentro, di facevano scaricare la legna, ti davano due schiaffi, sia tuo padre che tua madre e poi dopo ti lasciavano andare ma lo facevano perché volevano la legna questi qua. Ma poi se succedeva che ti tenevan lì c’era qualcuno che diceva a questo tripolino che veniva, ti faceva andar via col carretto, la legna no ma il carretto ti mandava a casa. Perciò era considerato una persona che faceva del bene a tutto che poi dopo l’hanno ammazzato come un po’ un gatto selvaggio insomma. Questo è un pochino tutto quello, poi cosa volete sapere?
[whispered speech]
GB: Ehm, un po’ in conclusione com’è, com’è cambiata anche la sua percezione di quello che lei ha vissuto durante la guerra, cosa che lei ci ha anche detto prima, no? Però dato che l’ha vissuta che era un ragazzo, grande però era comunque un ragazzo molto giovane, com’è cambiata la sua percezione negli anni di quello che era successo.
AL: Diciamo che si viveva di, molto diversamente allora, e non c’era, c’era una solidarietà che era enorme. Mi ricordo che c’era uno lì che, noi andavamo a casa, abitavamo a casa, in via Bellaria numero, numero 9, c’era uno che abitava in via Bellaria di fronte a me, un uomo che mancava una gamba, ed era marito di una che faceva la fruttivendola in via Cappuccini. Molte volte che venivo a casa, a casa perché ero sempre in giro, a casa c’ero poco, a dormire e basta perché ero sempre in giro, mi ricordo, e questo me lo ricordo adesso come ho parlato prima della camera mortuaria con la pezza di carne dei morti là in mezzo le macerie, si chiamava Ferruccio questo qua, era sempre, abitava a pian terreno, quand al feva da mangiare lui era lì in cucina ‘Ve Buti fermet chè che at dag un piat ed mnestra’ [Buti fermati qua che ti do un piatto di minestra] perché mi chiamavano Buti nel quartiere, sono alto così. E i maccheroni di Ferruccio ce li ho ancora in mente perché un piatto di maccheroni da lui era come un pasto di Natale, ‘na cosa per me, casa mia as feven rarameint cal cosi lè’. Per dire qual era la solidarietà d’allora ma di tutte le famiglie, se uno aveva bisogno, uno abitava al primo piano, anziano passava uno si fermava ‘Veh hai bisogno di qualcosa che vado in via Roma?’ era così, era una vita di famiglia, tutto aperto, non c’era chiavi, non c’era niente da rubare, cosa cosa, era così la vita, era proprio una famiglia intera. E c’era qualche gelosia, per cose altro ma si sbrigavano in una lite, in fuori, fuori dalla dalla di casa poi dopo tutto il resto tornava come prima, ecco era una cosa normale. Poi c’erano questi artigiani che se capitava di avere bisogno difficilmente ti chiedevano la paga, venivano come amici, come amici, è una vita che non, ma adesso non è più così, ma io poi che l’ho vissuta un pochino negli anni perché son sempre stato nella, nella quotidianità nella politica, io coi politici non ci ho mai avuto a che fare perché li ho sempre considerati della gente, dei buoni a nulla, nel ca, nel ce, le cose che fanno una carriera per poter vivere bene e avere dei privilegi che della gente poi alla fine se ne frega altamente, qualche d’uno lo fa anche con la coscienza a posto, proprio per fare per aiutare, ma sono più gli arrivisti che quelli che lavorano proprio per la gente. Io che faccio della della solidarietà per, di questo lavoro, lo faccio e non prendo niente, e lo faccio volentieri perché non è che abbia bisogno di essere portati su una poltrona e coperto dall’oro, devo avere la coscienza a posto, libera, a posto deve essere a posto, sentirmi gratificato io per quello che faccio. Quando faccio un piacere a qualcheduno lo faccio a me stesso perché mi sento gratificato e ce n’è poca gente così, la gente mira sempre ai soldi, sempre cose che poi alla fine quando muori non te le porti a dietro, rimangono lì, cosa se ne fanno la gente di stipendi di 10, 15 mila euro al mese quando c’è gente che non mangia, ma perché con tutti questi politici che vogliono fare il bene del popolo non fanno micca una legge dove dire ‘Al massimo vi diamo 5 mila euro al mese e il resto li teniamo per gli altri’ non succede, perché tutti i politici lavorano per il bene del popolo, ma non per il suo bene. Sempre quei viaggi a Berlino, siccome eravamo dei dirigenti noi, si andava, perché quando si accompagnava queste scuole c’era il gruppo, il terzo gruppo, che andavan via i dirigenti, i politici così. Io andavo sempre in questi gruppi perché tutto sommato io sono un presidente di una sezione eletto dal popolo, pertanto sono, in base alla costituzione, sono un cittadino, sono l’apice, pertanto io mi sono trovato in mezzo a delle autorità così che poi le considero persone normali, e mi ricordo che abbiamo avuto un incontro in Bundestag ci han fatto vedere come funziona il Bundestag. Alla sera alle sette, accompagnato da un gruppo di persone come funzione, il Buntestag se ve lo ricordate è una cupola dentro c’è, in alto, c’è una scala che gira a cos che vai fin su per vedere, e poi c’è il parlamento sotto. Il parlamento sotto che sono 300, 350 persone, c’è il governo, c’è gli eletti, e poi c’è un gruppo di mediatori chiamiamoli: lì ci vai con una legge, si discute, si mette i voti e poi c’è. Ma lì si propone la legge si fa entro il giro di 15 giorni si decide tutto, o si o no. Oppure si chiede il parere di questa gente che poi può essere l’ago della bilancia. Cosa prendan questa gente? E allora, all’epoca mi pare 2010 o 2005 prendeva massimo 5 mila euro al mese però tre giorni in parlamento, due giorni nel quartiere dove sei stato eletto. Se tu nei tre giorni manchi due giorni, non prendi più la quota del parlamentare, se nei due giorni, naturalmente ci sono le ferie e anche le giustificazioni, ma là non c’è bisogno di questo perché son persone serie le cose le fanno veramente, la metà. Un commesso là prende il doppio di un lavoratore nostro, cioè se un lavoratore nostro costa 30 mila euro, 25 mila, 30 mila euro, là ne prende 60 là, da noi ne prende 160. Là ce ne vuole uno ce ne mettono un mezzo, qua ce n’è uno e ce ne mettono cinque, perché, che poi che io viaggio anche come come consigliere nazionale, vado il giorno 4 a Roma al senato in un convegno, là quando arriva il ministro nella sala dove c’è il convegno, viene il ministro c’ha quattro commessi da una parte e quattro dall’altra, lui in mezzo viene accompagnato là ma queste quattro, otto persone cosa fanno lì? Questi qua che accompagnano il presidente dal suo ufficio al convegno. Poi nella sala c’è il convegno ci son quattro o cinque là così, che guardano, io vado dentro la prima volta che sono andato perché è già parecchie volte che ci vado, senza cravatta, mi dan la cravatta non posso andar dentro senza cravatta. Poi mentre sono seduto mi dicono ‘Quando va fuori la lascia lì la cravatta’ quando sei dentro questo convegno, questa sala che ascolti il convegno che partecipi, non puoi accavallare le gambe così perché c’è uno che ci dice che non si può. Gente che costa 160 mila euro all’anno, all’anno per far questo lavoro? Ma e poi dove ce n’è uno ce ne mettete dieci? Ecco dove abbiamo, dove va su il debito pubblico, perché se volessero lo mettono a posto in cinque, in cinque minuti in questa questione. Ci si dice ‘Tu prendi 11 mila (andiamo sul netto perché le tasse devon pagarle) prendici 11 mila euro netti, te ne diamo 5 mila in contanti gli altri 6 mila te li diamo di buoni del tesoro scadenti fra 30 anni. A fine mese ti trovi già l’ufficio del tesoro coi soldi non pagati, pagati con della carta senza soldi che puoi già metterli in economia, diminuire le tasse, fare, dare più soldi a chi lavora e così avvii anche l’economia perché la gente più soldi spende. Queste cose i politici devi fare, non le fanno perché son loro che hanno i benefici. Questo qua è uno sfogo eh!
GB: [laughs]
AL: Per tanto che io che c’ho una certa età che ho vissuto varie correnti, vari momenti alla fine è sempre la stessa cosa, tornando sul discorso di prima che la chiesa mette una chiesa di quartiere, il fascismo una casa del popolo ogni quartiere, a sinistra una cellula per ogni quartiere cioè è la storia che si ripete, perché il quartiere è, è la porcilaia dove tiri su i maiali o le pecore, perché devi coltivare, devi mangiare su quella gente lì, è così che funziona. Allora allora ecco perché un dato momento quando parli dei, cerchi dei politici che condizioni ti fanno. Io son stato anche nominato Cavaliere prima, Cavaliere Ufficiale, Commendatore per l’attività che faccio così sociale, a un dato momento vengo proposto come Commendatore, non è che abbia chiesto io, era il presidente nazionale che lo fa perché là faccio una certa attività, ecco e ci ho lasciato il segno. Viene un poliziotto a casa a prendere informazioni e io all’epoca, c’era un guardasigilli, che nell’88 quando ho cominciato a fare un pochino politica sociale sulle pensioni di guerra ci ho quasi detto dell’asino perché su delle domande fatte sulla nostra categoria si capiva che non sapeva niente, e io ci ho detto ‘Cosa è venuto a fare qua? Cosa ci ha, cosa ci ha invitati a fare?’. Quello è prendere in giro, non siam mica i vostri servitori. E l’epoca che è stato proposto come guardiasigilli, l’ho rinunciato perché la fine il guarda sigilli era quel personaggio, che non faccio nome per rispetto, che ha avuto questo qua cosa da dire 20 anni prima. Poi dopo questo qua va via perché le politiche, i governi cambiano, mi son trovato che addirittura che il presidente nazionale, vado lì, congresso, allora di consigli se ne faceva cinque o sei all’anno, mi chiama in ufficio ‘Te Landini ti faccio un regalo’. Eccola qua, questa scatolina che c’è scritto Commendatore. ‘Come mai? Non son micca commendatore’ no io lo so perché lui era a contatto. Non mi son neanche, neanche accorto lui ha insistito per farmi commendatore, mi dice questa scatola coi bigliettini, che ancora non mi era ancora arrivata la nomina, per dire che poi trovi soddisfazione su queste cose perché io ho anche chiesto a cosa servono, queste cose. E allora mi ha spiegato ‘Come presidente se tu hai bisogno di un ufficio come la Prefettura perché rappresenta lo Stato, io sono il Presidente della Repubblica, rappresenta lo stato. Se io vado là come Commendatore mi devono dare la precedenza subito. Se poi non sei contento per il capo ufficio, il capo sezione puoi chiedere di essere convocato dalla maggiore autorità, che in questo caso è il Prefetto, entro una settimana ti deve ricevere. Questo è quello che può servire’. Che poi a suo tempo mi è servito perché uno per diventare, doveva diventare orfano perché lo era, chiedeva dei documenti che era possibili averli perché papà era morto in certe circostanze e lo facevano girare, che là poi c’è l’impiegata agli orfani che son passati tanti anni, c’è e non c’è, questo qui veniva da Gattatico, ‘Vieni a Reggio’, l’han fatto girare. ‘Adesso ci penso io’. Sono andato in prefettura e ho chiesto di parlare con l’autorità, la prima autorità sotto prefetto ‘Ma no non si può, no’. Ci ho dato il biglietto allora quel puto lì, la guardia telefona su, mi riceve subito, è un sardo e le spiego la cosa. ‘Ha ragione, ci penso io ci penso io’ ‘Guardi che l’impiegata c’è e non c’è’. ‘Lei venga fra due giorni’ vado là fra due giorni e dice ‘Domani le do il documento’ è servito del documento che era orfano di guerra. Beh ma funziona così in Italia. Questo è quello che succede. Dico questi fatti perché.
GB: Ok la ringraziamo signor Landini per questa intervista
AL: Io sono sempre qua perché mè scamp fin a seintvint an perciò quand t’ghe bisoig tornet indrè [perché io sopravvivo fino a 120 anni quindi quando hai bisogno torni indietro].
GB: Torniamo a farne delle altre.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Adriano Landini
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Adriano Landini (b. 1930) recalls his childhood living in the poor Santa Croce neighbourhood in Reggio Emilia. Describes the profound sense of solidarity in wartime, stressing the community spirit among the so-called "popol giost" (the salt of the Earth). Narrates the role played by local fascist leaders in managing every-day problems, describes wartime hardships and explains the tricks he contrived to survive: stealing wooden posts, trading salt on the black market, pilfering food in cahoots with a railway policeman. Narrates how he broke into a magazine during a curfew, an action that allowed members of the Italian resistance to capture much needed ammunition - for this reason he has been later equated to a fully-fledged partisan. Recollects how he was wounded by a hand grenade while pillaging barracks on the last days of the war. Recalls two bombings and how he took cover in a vast public shelter. The first attack hit the power plant and the second the hospital, both caused many injuries. Stresses he was aware of the difference between night bombing, carried out the Royal Air Force and daylight bombing, which was the preserve of the United States Army Air Force. Hints at the gruesome sight of dismembered corpses and explains his role in the memorisation of the event. Gives a vivid testimony of the pillaging of barracks and fascist headquarters immediately after the fall of the regime. Provides a detailed account of his post war life: first his short-lived career as an athlete, then being employed in a leather factory where he worked his way up from ragged delivery boy to manager. Upon retirement he took an active role in the Associazione nazionale vittime civili di guerra becoming a prominent figure. Stresses the importance of keeping the memory of the Holocaust alive and highlights the differences between civil ethics in Germany and Italy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Giulia Bizzarri
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-14
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:03:34 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALandiniA170414
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
United States Army Air Force
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Reggio Emilia
Austria
Austria--Mauthausen
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Istituto per la storia della Resistenza e della società contemporanea (Reggio Emilia)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-08
1943-09-08
bombing
childhood in wartime
Holocaust
home front
perception of bombing war
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/327/Memoro 9138.2.mp3
fe0177914718bfa95e18210636a45e60
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AR: Nel ’44 quando hanno bombardato Dronero [pauses] me lo ricordo, nel ’44 io avevo sei anni. Adesso a sei anni non andate al pascolo alle pecore, ma io c’andavo. E allora, eh, mi ricordavo che, mi ricordo che ero su in collina lì al pascolo alle pecore e vedevo gli aerei che arrivavano da nord, partivano dall’aeroporto di Torino, da Caselle senz’altro non so se c’era altri aeroporti militari non lo so comunque arrivati alto così, scendevano, facevano proprio questo scherzo qui, perchè Dronero è una valle, colline di qua, colline di là, allora facevano questo scherzo qui, sganciavano e risalivano, quello me lo ricordo perfettamente. Adesso non vi posso dire se li ho visti una volta o di più, non mi ricordo quello lì. [part missing in the original file] un aereo, quello non si saprà mai, perchè ormai il pilota è morto e poi è Americano, non lo so. Allora, un aereo forse per difetto di sganciamento, forse per rimorsi di coscienza non ha sganciato, non so se era un difetto dell’apparecchiatura di sganciamento non si sa, comunque di ritorno ha sganciato la bomba, la bomba comunque è stata sganciata, proprio al mio paese, Villa San Costanzo, io so il punto preciso [part missing in the original file] ha fatto un buco nella montagna che ci sta mezza casa dentro. Sempre a proposito del bombardamento di Dronero [part missing in the original file] l’albergo Tripoli, una bomba, le bombe d’eeerei, le bombe d’eerei sono come minimo anche dieci o più quintali, forse anche venti non so, in ogni caso ha bucato il tetto, tutti i soffitti, si è piantata in terra in cantina e non è esplosa. Lì vicino c’era il padrone dell’Albergo Tripoli, allora era ristorante allora non so era anche albergo comunque, che imbottigliava vino, si è visto la bomba lì vicino che non è scoppiata, sono voci eh io non lo so, io il padrone l’ho conosciuto lì, non so se era già così prima o se è diventato dopo, qualcuno diceva che dallo spavento è diventato un pochino semo via, dallo spavento.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Albino Ristorto
Description
An account of the resource
Albino Ristorto (b. 1938) remembers the bombing of Dronero in 1944 when he saw a formation of aircraft approaching from the north, coming from Turin (Torino)
airport. He describes how one them made a swooping manoeuvre and mentions how the pilot didn’t drop the bomb on the first pass, either because of a malfunction or because of the his guilty conscience. He mentions the exact spot where the bomb hit the ground, making a crater as big as a house. He describes the effect of a bomb that hit the Hotel Tripoli, smashed through the roof and went all the way down to the cellar where the owner was bottling wine.He maintains that the blast made him slightly insane ever since.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:02:51 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#9138
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Dronero
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/328/Memoro 9140.1.mp3
ca71b545ff698000ffd50324371b64b1
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AR: Ho lavorato in casa di il Presidente dell’Associazione Partigiani di Dronero, Giorsetti Ermanno. [part missing in the original file] A proposito del bombardamento di Dronero, gli ho detto, come e’ successo che gli Americani han bombardato Dronero? Eh beh, ma vede, allora, allora era cosi’. Non e’ che sia che i partigiani abbiano ordinato di… Beh qualcuno lo dice, pero’, pero’, pero’, glielo dico io allora, io son sicuro che sono i partigiani. Guardi, io ho dodici anni meno di lei, allora io avevo quattro anni, no avevo sei anni pero’ so con certezza che sono i partigiani di fatti avevo sempre sentito dire da tutti, da gente piu’ anziana di me che si ricorda meglio di me, han sempre detto che sono i partigiani che hanno fatto bombardare Dronero perche’ in Dronero c’erano i tedeschi, tedeschi di ordinanza, di ordine pubblico, allora i tedeschi erano un po’ dappertutto e tra l’altro a Dronero ce n’erano e sono proprio i partigiani che hanno fatto bombardare Dronero [part missing in the original file]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Albino Ristorto
Description
An account of the resource
Albino Ristorto (b. 1938) remembers the day he challenged the president of the local partisans association, who was reluctant to admit their involvement in the bombing of Dronero. He reports the widely held belief that the partisans asked the Allies to attack the town because of the vast number German soldiers stationed there.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:01:20 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#9140
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Dronero
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/980/11391/AMartinA170830.1.mp3
e8835f22bcaa76fa9456d0867fa305fb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Martin, Alfie
Alfred Martin DFC
A Martin
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Alfred Martin DFC (1920 - 2017, 120240 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an observer with 102 Squadron and was shot down and evaded.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Martin, A
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Right.
JW: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. My name is John Wells and my interviewee is Mr Alfie Martin. The interview is being held at Mr Martin's home [buzz] Dunmurry. Today is Wednesday the 30th of August 2017 and the time is ten minutes past eleven. Also present are Mr, Mr Martin's daughter, Julie and my wife Helen. [pause] Right. I wonder if you could, if you could start by just giving me a little background to your, where you were born and where you went to school.
AM: Well, as you know my name is Alfred Martin. I was always referred to that at home but during my time in the services I was always known as Paddy. Anyway, I was born in Finaghy which is a small area just outside Belfast. And I was born in 1920 so my age now is ninety seven. I’ve been fortunate in having relatively good health all my life. I was educated in [unclear] Avenue and then a Friends’ School in Lisburn. And I passed my senior certificate at the age of sixteen which was about two years earlier than most. I got the first job I applied for which was in the insurance business and I started that on the 20th of July 1936. Towards the end of the ‘30s the British government was beginning to get a little apprehensive about the desires of Hitler and there was a strong effort to increase the Territorial and Reserve services. I applied for the air, air force by signing up at Ann Street in Belfast and I would have been flying on weekends but when I got home my mother insisted that it was much too dangerous in the Air Force and I should not go forward with it. So I went down the next day and cancelled it. However, I continued to have a desire to help the Services and in [pause] towards the end of 1938 I joined the Territorial Army. Royal Engineers Antrim Fortress Company. And I was stationed with them during the war. I was called up on 28th of August 1939 and I went to Grey Point first of all but I also served at Kilroot and at Magilligan. That was for twenty months I was in the army, getting more and more bored because — but at the same time I I learned how to dig trenches, dig latrines and in addition put up barbed wire. At least in later years the experience in putting up barbed wire was of some, some help. As I’ve said, I was called up in August ‘39 and I served until 1941, at which time I found that there was an edict in the office stating that the air force were looking for volunteers. So I, I volunteered after requesting permission from my officers and four of us were selected to go for interview. As far as I can know I was the only one who was accepted at Clifton Street. And I was, at the same time I was accepted to go forward as, as an observer. That was their, their request. I was prepared to be a pilot but I was so tired of being in the army that I was quite, very happy in fact to, to train as an observer. It was only about two weeks later after that that I was called up for a real push job in my first station with the Air Force and it was the first army intake of the war. The first lot of army people who were taken into the air force. We had a really, a very cushy life initially. Initially [pause] initially we were stationed in Stratford on Avon at the, put up in the Shakespeare Hotel. And from there I went to Scarborough where we were in the Grand Hotel. Quite a luxury life. And then it was to a little place called Wilberforce or Wilbur. Not sure. Anyway, from there it was obvious we were going overseas for, for training. We sailed first of all from Liverpool and I and a lot, a crowd of us aboard the [pause] the, I can't remember the name of the, oh the Ulster. The Ulster Monarch I think it was. It was a boat which normally went between Belfast and Liverpool but we were on it to Iceland where they tossed us off and we had to spend about three weeks there. It was the middle of August so it was light for twenty four hours and the weather was quite pleasant. We enjoyed swimming in hot springs which were nearby and a temperature of about eighty five degrees highs. I enjoyed it very much. The water from that was then siphoned off to heat the houses in Reykjavik which was about twenty miles away. From [pause] after about sixteen days I think it was we, we were told to return to Reykjavik and they put us aboard the, the Canadian Pacific liner Montcalm which, in effect returned to to Belfast to pick up a convoy and we went on from there. And that, that that was my first experience of sleeping in a, in a hammock. And it was a really [pause] while you were in it it was quite comfortable but to get out was a feat of great strength and persistence. And I wouldn't really say I had desire to get into having hammocks again. Anyway, from there we went to St John in New Brunswick, unloaded and from there to Prince Edward Island, to a little place called Charlottetown where we were scheduled to do navigation. From there we, after about six months we, we were considered to be fit and we were sent for bombing and gunnery at Lake Ontario in a wee place called Picton. There we flew in, in Fairey Battle aircraft and we were able to bomb from a bombsight in the floor of the aircraft and fire a Vickers machine gun from the open cockpit. It was quite a cold experience. The temperature was about minus twenty and standing up in an open cockpit was, was not a thing to be desired. Having graduated from that we were all sent on leave and we were all made, having been leading aircraftsmen we became flight sergeants. And we were promoted to flight sergeant and sewed on our extra stripes and then returned to the [pause] a Scottish friend and I went to Boston for our, our short leave. On return I was, I was surprised but not displeased after being granted a commission for us, six of us we were granted commissions out of about thirty in the course. So, I returned to, returned to Britain in the SS Bayano and [knocking noise] Here are my carers. In the SS Bayano, and it took sixteen days of absolute boredom. But we kept a look out for enemy submarines and were fortunate enough to not have anything happen. I’ll just break for a minute.
[recording paused]
We kept look outs. On return we were posted to Bournemouth where we stayed in a top class hotel. And then we were posted on to Stanton Harcourt, Witney which were satellites of Abingdon and we did cross country runs from there. Very often across the Irish Sea up to Scotland and back again. Low level flying. In fact, one pilot managed to get the tips of his wings in the water and bent them a wee bit. And it was lucky he hadn’t got bent completely but the, that was flying up to Wigtown. Later on it was, it was as if the, the practice flights and so forth we were sent up to Scotland one time and I, and we were crewed up and I had became a navigator for a Canadian pilot who was a great big hefty fellow but not the best of pilots I’ve got to say. Anyway, coming back he seemed to get tired of flying and we saw lights below us which were Berwick on Tweed and he decided he was going to land there. So we did. We landed all right but the trouble was we landed about three hundred yards short of the runway in little, among little trees. We were flying a Whitley. A Whitley bomber, which was, had a very low landing speed fortunately for us. We sawed off the tops of a few trees and we came to rest but we were uncertain whether we were on the ground or where we were. I climbed out of the [unclear] wing and I found a tree, tree stump and I slid down it to the ground. And all, in the distance I could hear the station ambulance and fire crew calling out to keep, ‘Keep shouting. Keep shouting. We'll find you. We'll find you,’ and eventually they did. They took us in and they gave us medicals and packed us to bed. And then in the morning they packed us onto a train and sent us back to, to Stanton Harcourt. But after that my first operation took, took place a few days later. It was one of the thousand bomber raids and we went in a Whitley aircraft to Dusseldorf. And then the second one was to, was about three days later and that was to Hamburg. From there I managed to do about a dozen operations. It was early in the bombing command and the targets were pretty dangerous. I’m just going to say I went to Berlin and I went to Stuttgart. I went to Happy Valley, that's the Ruhr, a couple of times. And Nuremberg, Hamburg and then on to Lorient, St Nazaire, Turin and Genoa. Most of them quite long trips. The thirteenth trip was to Pilsen in Czechoslovakia. And we set off about eight o'clock in the evening and had to cross a lot of Germany. And we did. I think we landed. Sorry. We, we got to Pilsen at sometime about midnight. Our navigation aids at that time were very limited. In fact it was mostly by [pause] by ground. Ground marks and so forth. But I would think our bombs were dropped about fifty miles short of Pilsen. However, it had been a long trip. We turned and set the way back and again it was long. At 4.05 in the morning we had noticed that there was aircraft, there was foreign aircraft and being very active. And anyway shortly after we heard bullets coming from a gun and hitting our aircraft. At that stage we, we gathered out into the front of the aircraft, a Halifax and I prepared to parachute out if required. Unfortunately, I, I was in the nose side of, of the escape hatch which was about that size. And the job was to take it off its hinges and drop it down through the aperture. Well, in our case the lid as I'd call it refused to go because the wind caught it. The air stream caught it and jammed it angle-wise across. I was unable to have enough strength to clear it. I tried to get one of the crew on the other side of the [pause] of the [pause] of the —
JW: Aperture.
AM: Aperture. On the other side of the aperture to, to hit it or kick or something but he didn't seem to understand. Finally the pilot came on again and he called out with great vehemence, ‘Port engine on fire. Port engine on fire. Bale out. Bale out.’ And it was a wee bit stronger than that and I looked out and there was, certainly there was just a blue flame like a blow torch coming from the engine. It didn't look very healthy. I saw that the crew on the far side were doing nothing about the, the door of the aperture and I disconnected my, but I adjusted my parachute and to remove my [pause] my intercom apparatus and I just stood up and jumped on the edge of the, of the aperture door and out it went and I went out with it. And that started me off. It was absolute silence for [pause] I don't know. While I was, while I was out. Up ‘til then I’d been hearing the engines roaring for, as I think I said to you it was four o'clock in the morning when we were shot down and we'd been hearing the engines for at least eight hours so the silence was very welcome but rather unexpected. Anyway, I floated down. I checked to see what was, I was coming in to. I tried to turn around in the parachute but couldn't get it to turn so that I could see what was happening. All I could see was that there was the aircraft was burning on the ground and I couldn't see any other members of crew. But in retrospect they all got out with the exception of the rear gunner. And we presume that he was killed trying to get out of his, his turret which was not an easy thing to do but we were uncertain. When I hit the ground I just rolled over on my back but it kind of came out to hit you. Everything seemed to be very slow until the last sixteen feet and going down. But then our training took over and we were, had been advised to hide our parachutes. So I sorted around and found a damp place in a corner a field and stuck it in but it was a very bad hiding job. But anyway it was out of sight and then I set off hoping to go in a westerly direction. But as the aircraft was in that direction I had to go south. And it was through the fields and for it, for a couple of, for all night I stopped up the next morning and sort of decided I’d rest and see what was what. So, I think that was a Sunday morning I believe. And I found a little place between two hedges where I was kind of covered. About one o'clock, having had a bit of a doze suddenly there was a great rustling nearby and a cow appeared. And behind the cow was a little boy aged twelve who was driving it. And he stopped and stared me up and down and I got up and kind of stared him up and down. And then suddenly he saluted me. And I was extremely touched by that because I don't know how he recognized that I was anyone other than a refugee of some sort. But that little boy was Andre [Lelu], and he looked, he was the first to meet me. To recognize me. He brought along his mother and father and they brought me some food and they tried to help me on my way but said they couldn't really help. It was too dangerous for them. So I left it until the next evening when I set off. Again, I said I would only walk in the evenings and I did the best I could that evening but I I approached a couple of farmhouses but every time I did there was a dog barking and I was a bit scared of it and I moved on. And late in the morning, or late in the night I should say I got a bit tired of that then looked for somewhere to rest. And the only place I was able to find was a broken down chicken hut in which I slept by some of my equipment and I did a bit of changing of my appearance. And I stayed there for an hour or two checking on my escape equipment etcetera. That, that morning I set off again and I was told to go to a place by the name of [Lessies] where I should be able to get a train, I'd been told. But when I did get there after walking and crossing a river or two I found that it was very remote. All that was in the railway station the only thing you could see were a couple of men sitting outside on a, on a bench and quite frankly I was too frightened to go up and look for a train. So I set off further down the hill. Following the line but off the road. And suddenly I came in sight of a couple of gendarmes talking to a lady down below. Maybe a hundred yards away. And I think they had spotted me but I had decided that it was, it would be dangerous for me to turn and retrace my steps so I decided to go ahead and walk past them. And I did get part way past when they, one of them said, ‘Attention monsieur.’ And I stopped and they asked for my carte d’identite which I didn't, which I did have but not for publication. And I I acted dumb and sort of appeared to search in my pockets and so forth and tried to answer their questions in what I thought was the best answer. After about five minutes of this silence and so forth they indicated they wanted me to come with them and they set off up the hill the way I had been coming and I I went up beside them. And what I thought was the senior one of the two looked at me and said, ‘Anglais monsieur?’ And I said, ‘Oui.’ And he said, ‘Allez. Allez. Vite.’ And I allez-ed vite very vite-ly indeed. I understood and got back on my journey down the hill until maybe an hour later I came across a railway crossing and I was, went out on the road to cross there. I saw a lady in, in a house and I [pause] saw a lady in the house and I decided to go and speak to her. She was very frightened but I persisted and finally she kind of took me in and gave me a little bit of beer or wine and so forth and she said she'd find me a place for the night. So about, after a short period we set off up the road about a mile until we came to a farmhouse which was off the road. I was taken up there. We knocked the door. A man answered and my guide explained the situation. I was brought in in the understanding that I would be looked after for one night and then they'd have to do something else. But that one night turned out to be six weeks. And I was there for six weeks with people by the name of [Collene] and they couldn't be better to me. I, more or less, I’ve been in touch with them all my life. Although now most of them have passed on. But anyway I’m going to say from there on during that six weeks I had my, some of my coats and things dyed black and I had my hair dyed black because I was a ginger type. And I was told that we would have, there would be a lady come for me on the following night. But that night passed and no one appeared. However, a lady appeared the next night accompanied by a man. And that lady was Madame [unclear]. And incidentally the man was Monsieur [pause] I’ve forgotten his name in the moment but unfortunately he was shot later for helping. But that wasn't connected with me. Anyway, we, they took me to the railway station and we got on a train later than expected. We went to Lille and stayed in a third class hotel there. And I walked around on the streets which were full of German soldiers having a Saturday night out. It was up about four o'clock next morning and we got a train off to Arras where Madame [unclear] had a house. A safe house. And I’m just going to say that from there on I had all sorts of, a number of different helpers. Some, mostly female but some male. I went on to Paris. From Paris to a place called [pause] from Paris to Bordeaux. From Bordeaux to Dax from Dax to [pause] Biarritz. And I’ve forgotten the name of the —
Other: St John de Luz.
AM: Pardon?
Other: St John de Luz.
AM: Yes. But another place from that where we stayed one night. The following night we went to St John de Luz. De luz. And I omitted to say that in the, this railway station in Paris, in the east Paris — Gare de l’Est I found a group of men talking. And I looked hard at them and there, one of them was my pilot. And I had expected that he wouldn't have survived because we were quite low in terms of getting out of the aircraft but he told me later that he got out about five hundred feet and he’d no sooner opened the ‘chute when he hit the ground. I was delighted to see him but we couldn't talk to each other because it was too dangerous to show any expressions. But one of them was Wally Lashbrook. He and an American by the name of Doug Hoehn. We formed a little group who went on to, as I say Bordeaux, Dax, St John de Luz and from there over the border to Irun and St Sebastian and into a safe house in San Sebastian where we stayed for about four days. We were taken out in the evening. A car stopped beside us and we were told to get in. And it was a consulate from, from Spain, from Madrid who picked us up. And he, he was with his wife and the three of us were in the back and we were driven all through the night to Madrid where we stayed in the embassy for three days taking, getting the first opportunity to write to our folks at home and let them know we were alive. And after a few days we were put on a train to Lleida in the south of [pause] or the west of France, west of Spain. And from Lleida we walked over the border and into a Gibraltar. About three days later, having been issued with new uniforms and so forth we flew by public aircraft to Bristol. From Bristol by train to London where we were interviewed and given leave passes. And Wally and I, and we couldn't, we didn't have time to get home on that night so we decided to go to Pocklington which we had been stationed when we left and we had a right nice get together with our pals. From there it was back to Belfast and a meeting, a very fine meeting with my parents and my friends. And that's about my story but —
JW: Do you want to have a rest. Hold on a sec.
Other: You might find it interesting to look at this. Have a read.
JW: I’ll have a look at it afterwards. Yeah. When did you actually leave the RAF then?
AM: Well —
JW: Oh sorry. Before that did, did you go on further operations?
AM: I did say, I don't know that I gave the date but the date of being shot down was the 17th of April 1943.
JW: Right.
AM: So there was a fair bit of time and we were not permitted to return to operations because we might give away the — we might be interrogated again and give away the names of people who’d helped us and so forth. That precluded what we were going to do but in my case I, I was actually, I was posted to Britain to do a staff navigator’s course. And I was, the staff navigator’s course I was posted, but I exchanged with one of my friends who had been posted to Canada. So in effect I went to Canada to do a staff navigation course which I did and I was out in Canada for about fifteen months at, mostly in Ontario but also out in Winnipeg. My demob came in the end of ‘45 and I was, and I returned to Britain and sent up to near Catterick and demobbed in December [unclear] but it wasn't effective until March. Anyway, my job in the insurance business had been kept open for me and in effect, and well, in fact they had made up my salary in the early part of my induced, my Air Force career when I was getting about one and, one and three, one and six a day which went up to seven and six a day. But anyway the insurance company made it up to what I would have been getting with them which was very good. They called me back and I, I went back in the beginning of ’46 and I was an insurance inspector for the counties of Fermanagh, Monaghan and Cavan for about a year. And then I, I got, I wanted to emigrate. I checked on South Africa and Australia but I decided to go to Canada because I knew it and I knew I could get a job. So anyway, I went off to Canada where Sheila was born. Julie rather. And my wife, who came from Benburb.
JW: Right.
AF: She joined me in Canada and we were married there in ‘53. Yes. That is about it, I think.
JW: Thank you very much for, I’m amazed at the amount of stuff you've been able to remember. Can I ask you what rank you were when you were finally demobbed?
AM: Flight lieutenant.
JW: Flight Lieutenant. Yeah. Yeah. And I was going to ask if you knew your old service number because what they —
AM: Well —
JW: Will be able to do is dig out your old record.
AM: 2068004. That’s, that’s my army one. The original. 2068004.
JW: Two —
AM: 068004.
JW: 2068004.
AM: That's my army one. In the air force I was, in the air force I was 120240. I did have another number in between but it wasn't —
JW: And your actual date of birth you said was —
AM: 26 3 ‘20.
Other: And did you mention the DFC dad?
JW: Oh that. We forgot to mention. So —
AM: I was awarded the DFC on, on return from, from the Continent. So was Wally.
JW: Yeah. Congratulations on that.
AM: That’s about it.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alfie Martin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
John Wells
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMartinA170830
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:49:16 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-04-17
Description
An account of the resource
Alfie Martin was born near Belfast in 1920. He applied for the Air Force but his mother was worried about the dangers and so he withdrew his application. He joined the army and when the RAF advertised for soldiers to transfer the RAF he volunteered. He trained as an observer in Canada. He was posted to RAF Pocklington with 102 Squadron. On his twelfth operation their aircraft came under attack and he baled out. While in hiding he heard a rustling and a cow appeared in view along with a young boy. The boy saw him and saluted. Alfie was enormously touched by this. This was the start of his evasion and eventual return to active duty in the UK.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Great Britain
Spain
England--Yorkshire
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
France--Paris
Northern Ireland--Belfast
Spain--San Sebastián
Great Britain
102 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
Distinguished Flying Cross
evading
fear
Halifax
observer
RAF Pocklington
RAF Stanton Harcourt
Resistance
shot down
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/421/7647/AAn01688-180615.2.mp3
4eddf1d2c6a980b6bc0d339c5779b361
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with an eye-witness of Milan bombings
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alessandro Pesaro
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:21:11 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAn01688-180615
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Description
An account of the resource
The informant describes two bombings he eye-witnessed in the Sesto San Giovanni and Niguarda area. During the first, he was in a basement adapted as underground shelter: he recollects women reciting the rosary and a queasy sensation in the stomach caused by explosions. During the latter he found himself in an open space in which trenches have been dug and saw the bombs falling. Describes how he gradually became used to violence and destruction; the sense of danger being tempered by his natural inquisitiveness. Stressed the inefficiency of anti-aircraft fire and the gradual escalation of the bombing war. Mentions the widespread sense of solidarity and mutual support: factory workers pilfering coal at great personal risk, and the role of the “Soccorso Rosso” clandestine mutual support network. Recalls an atmosphere of fear and episodes of violence, mentioning loathed Fascist militiamen and episodes of the resistance in Milan. Elaborates on how the bombings were the just retribution for starting the war.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending OH transcription
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
faith
fear
home front
perception of bombing war
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/673/9225/PAndrewsPF1701.1.jpg
f2ebdb590ad02e6bdbfb783df0b1cbcd
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/673/9225/AAndrewsPF170911.1.mp3
b75333e621a6c4095f4c7e868ae7b6f5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Andrews, Andy
Peter Frederick Andrews
P F Andrews
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Andy Andrews (1924 - 2022, 1811552 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 10 Squadron before he was shot down on a mine laying operation 14 February 1945 and became a prisoner of war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by 'Andy' Andrews and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Andrews, PF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Peter Frederick Andrews known as Andy Andrews, today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Andy’s home and it’s the 11th of September 2017. So, first of all, thank you Andy for agreeing to talk to me today.
AA: Quite alright. Yeah.
SP: So, Andy, tell me about life before the RAF.
AA: I left school at fourteen years of age which was the time that you left education in those days and I went to work as a, in a tailoring, a tailoring shop in Tunbridge High Street. And I was there until such time as I got an interest in flying and I joined the Air Training Corps and they brought my education up a bit by giving me more maths training than I’d had before. And I, in, in those days at seventeen and a quarter you could volunteer for the flying duties in the RAF because it, all air crew were volunteers during the war. And I was, I went into the RAF. As I say I was in a gent’s outfitters and I was there until such time as I went into the RAF at seventeen and a quarter which was the end of 1941, and started. Kitted out at Cardington. Went from there to Blackpool and at Blackpool we did Morse training in the Winter Gardens. And we were there in the winter period and if weather was too bad for physical training we did it in the Tower Ballroom which was quite an experience because the organist on the big organ was usually rehearsing and it was quite, quite an experience. And once we finished at Blackpool we, we went to Lossiemouth in Scotland which was the Operational Training Unit. And the method of crewing up in the RAF in those days sounds a bit chaotic really because you were all in a giant hangar. Air gunners, navigators, bomb aimers, air, wireless operators and pilots and a pilot somehow collected the people that he had spoken to and well, you knew briefly. And he knew one of the gunners because he had, he had been an instructor when the gunner was, James Petre when he was trying for his pilot’s licence which he didn’t manage. Hence the fact he ended up as an air gunner and he picked up him and his mate up as crew. And then they latched on to me and got me as a wireless op and the navigator, whose name was Berry he had red hair so he naturally got nicknamed Red. Plus the fact that the red beret, I mean it was quite obvious why he got the name but, and we formed a crew. We were flying in Wellingtons, training in Wellingtons and we completed, completed our OTU training and from there we went down to York and we went to a Conversion Unit just outside of York called Rufforth. 1663 Con Unit, and we converted on to the Halifax Mark 2 with, with the inlined engine and once we’d, we’d converted successfully on to the Halifax we were sent to a, the squadron which was 10 Squadron. A little village called Seaton Ross or Melbourne and we, we flew in the, they were equipped with the Halifax Mark 3 which was a marvellous aeroplane and we converted on to that. And we had one little hiccup. The bomb aimer that we’d picked up was, he got cold feet and he, he told our pilot Johnny that he wasn’t going to be able to go on ops. So, John told him to go to the medical officer and state his case which he did and he was classed as LMF which is lack of moral fibre and he had his insignia, RAF flying insignia and rank taken away and he was posted off the squadron. But we were very successful in his replacement which was, I’ll be eternally grateful that he came to us because he was so useful to me at a later date when we were prisoner of war. But he was, he come from Liverpool and his name was Stan and he was an ex-docker built quite solid. Again, which I was very grateful for at a later date and he had, he had done a tour in Wellingtons in the Middle East so he’d already done thirty operations when he came to us. He slotted into the crew quite well as one of the senior crews but he was senior to all of us as far as operations are concerned but we started our operating and we did German targets which consisted of the Ruhr which we did a couple of dozen operations. Well, no about twelve operations on the Ruhr which was known to aircrew as Happy Valley and the flak was quite extensive over those areas. Anyhow, we got through nineteen operations and we were feeling confident that we were going to be able to complete our tour without any bother. We’d done a couple of mine laying operations which was code named gardening and was given a, a code name. The one we were on, on, we were briefed to go on was, “Forget Me Nots.” And it was just off the coast of Denmark in the shipping lanes. We were due to drop mines and we took off about 5.30 on the February the 14th, St Valentine’s Day and headed over the coast of Yorkshire heading for, we flew out at five hundred foot to get a bit below the radar so the Germans didn’t pick us up too quick. The, the rest of the squadron, there were just three aircraft on the mine laying which we were one of and the rest of the squadron went to a target called Chemnitz on the 13th of February which was to drag some of the fighter opposition away from Dresden which was the target that night. And they were going to Chemnitz. We were going to drop mines. We took off, flew across to the mainland of Denmark and then climbed to a height of eighteen thousand feet. Headed towards Copenhagen which we were due to, is the island of Zealand and a little farther on we came to the, we would have come to the coast to drop the mines. The bomb aimer had come down to the front to prepare the mines for dropping but unfortunately a JU88 fitted with all the latest equipment had latched on to us. He’d been vectored on to us and once, the method of attack is once they’ve got visual contact with a bomber they flew to the rear of it and slightly underneath so it made the rear gunner couldn’t get a, couldn’t depress his guns far enough to reach them. And then he had a fixed firing .5 gun which actually targeted the front part of the plane. And the part that always fascinates me is the fact that his first burst caught the port wing which was fully alight and the flames were trailing out behind and he he he had another burst which must have killed the pilot because he was sitting immediately above me and I had blood on my battledress which must have been his. And the navigator who sat by my right knee almost within touching distance he had been caught by a cannon shell as well. So, they were both dead. I was in the middle and got away with it apart from superficial cuts and bruises. I stood up, clipped my parachute on and the aircraft was all over the place because the pilot was obviously dead or dying and there was no control and it was flying all over the place and as everybody knows if you’re all over the place in an aircraft it’s difficult to do anything. I was making to move forward to the escape hatch by which time the pilot and the navigator were dead. The mid-upper gunner, the flight engineer and the rear gunner got out of the main escape hatch or the one that you normally come, come in to the aircraft on and they’d gone out. They baled out and just after they had baled out the aircraft blew up and we figured that the nose must have separated from the main fuselage and Stan, who was the bomb aimer he was up in the nose and myself who was about six foot from him must have gone through a gap. And fortunately, as I say I was unconscious and I came to in a silent world because your ears have blacked out. You fall at a hundred and twenty miles an hour. And I looked up and saw the parachute pack but the parachute hadn’t been deployed so I reached up and pulled it. It appears to be in the nick of time because it was only seconds and I hit the deck and in the middle of a field in Denmark. And as I say the, the exiting from the aircraft the flight engineer and the mid-upper gunner got out without any problem at all. Jim, the rear gunner, Jim Petre he turned his guns to, to port because there was, the flames were, were streaming back on the port side and he jettisoned the back doors and fell out backwards. But unfortunately one of his flying boots got caught in the guns so he was trailing out the back and in, with his parachute pack and he realised that he’d got to get away from the aircraft because it was burning and so he pulled the ripcord which yanked him out like a cork out of a bottle and opened the chute. It took him a long while to get down because from sort of eighteen, sixteen thousand feet, whichever we were to the ground takes quite a, quite a number of minutes to get down whereas I was the last one out I reckon and Stan and I we were the first down. And as I say I approached some houses that were alongside the field where we were and I approached some people that were standing out at their gate. They had maps and torches and things to illuminate and whatever, and the first group that I got to said they didn’t want to know because obviously if the Germans, if, if you were a Danish citizen and you helped English aircrew or allied aircrew then you were shot. You were killed. So, they directed me over to another house and I went and knocked the window and that’s when I knew that my hands were quite badly cut and bruised and the blood was running down the window. And they, they took me in and sat me in the chair and dressed my head wounds with paper bandages and I got the escape kit out and the silk map and the currency and all the stuff that goes with it and they pointed, they pointed out where we were in Denmark. And whatever plans I’d got, I was forming in my mind was to get out. Anyhow, they sent for an ambulance and they came along and they picked me up and took me out in a stretcher. Put me in the back of the ambulance. We went down the road, hundred yards not much more I shouldn’t have thought and the back doors opened and Stan was wheeled in. He looked a shocking sight because he was, where Perspex is embedded into his face. It looked a lot worse than what it was. It looked like he was, his whole face was blooded and I suppose mine was must have been the same and I said, ‘You look a shocking sight.’ And he said, ‘Well, you don’t look much better.’ They took us to a hospital which they changed, they put us in an examination room with two benches where we’d laid there and the doctors were checking us over and doing what was necessary and they brought a couple of members of the Resistance in who the doctors interpreted for. One of the doctors could speak really good English and they had said that if we were fit to travel the next day they’d got, they would get us away and we’d get across to Sweden which the other three members of the crew managed to do and they got back to England quite quickly. But unfortunately, somebody in the hospital had blown the whistle on us and said there was two fliers and although they were changing us from ward to ward to keep us out of the way the Germans marched in and took us. And they took us both out on stretchers and they put us in some unbelievable dungeon like place and Stan was one, there was a couple of bunks in there and Stan was in one and I was in the other. And later on that night they brought their girlfriends down to have a laugh at our expense. And as I say Stan was a very forthright ex-docker and he gave them some Liverpool [laughs] swearing which if you, whether they recognised it but they must have known that he wasn’t very happy. And he’d got broken ribs and fortunately the next day the Luftwaffe who had heard that we’d been taken prisoner by the Wehrmacht came and claimed us as their own which they were in the habit of doing because, and they took us to an airfield in Denmark and put us in sick quarters where we were quite well looked after for a few days. I had [sunray] treatment to take the bruising which I was black from just below the thighs up to the chest where the harness was a bit slack and with my delayed drop it did cause quite a bit of damage. But, and Stan also with his broken ribs he had, he had quite a lot of attention and anti-tetanus and all kinds of things and the doctor who could speak, the Luftwaffe doctor who could speak good English, him and Stan had long conversations and argued against the merits of us fighting the Germans and we should never have got into a situation where we were at war with Germany and Stan was saying just how, giving his version of it and it got quite heated. At that particular time Stan had noted or we’d both noted that there was a JU52, one of their transport aircraft was parked not far from the window and they used to take it up for an air test every, every day. And Stan come out with the bright idea that if he could get out to it he’d get us off the ground which I thought might have been a good idea in, in boy’s books but it didn’t sound very convincing to me that he was going to do all that with him with two broken ribs and me strapped up with severe bruising. Anyhow, it came to nothing and we were transported by ship from [pause] from Denmark across the, going over the shipping lanes where the mines had been dropped by other aircraft and we were right in the bowels of this ship and we, but we got away with it. We got to Rostock on the north coast of Germany and then we entrained from there. I had a dodgy experience as we went in to Hamburg. The compartment was reserved just for us and two guards because we had two guards with us and, but the civilians had pushed their way in. In other words, they’d have probably done the same in this country, why should enemy aircrew have a reserved when they were standing in the [laughs] Anyhow, they got that they piled into there and one of them had got me against the door and we were looking out at a part of Hamburg where there wasn’t a stone on a stone. I mean it had been completely obliterated and he was saying, ‘Your comrades,’ and he was trying to undo the door to push me out. Fortunately, the guards with their guns forced them back and put Stan and I up in the corner out of the way and we didn’t have any more trouble from them. But we went from there down to Dulag Luft near Frankfurt which was the Interrogation Centre for all allied aircrew and we were immediately shoved in to solitary confinement and taken out. I think we were there for four days before they were convinced that we’d got no useful information to give us. But we were taken out and chatted to by, or interrogated by German officers who could speak perfect English and offered us cigarette and, ‘Would you like a sandwich?’ And were very nice to us but they had got so much information about 10 Squadron they even knew we’d got a new CO which we’d only had for three weeks, Wing Commander Shannon and they even knew about that. And once they realised that they knew more about 10 Squadron than what I did they released us on to the main camp where we were, I inherited a pair of GI boots which were quite comfortable and we were kitted out and the biggest tragedy as far as I’m concerned we were given a shower and they came along and said I’d got lice so they shaved my head right down to the bone which is the customary mode of hair cutting nowadays but it wasn’t in those days and I was very proud of my mane of hair. And being as we were only short-term prisoners we weren’t there that long. By the time we got back I still only had about half an inch of fuzz on my hair. So, I wore a glengarry all the time, indoors and outdoors. Anyhow, the whole point is that we marched from Dulag Luft down to Nuremberg and that’s where we, we had the unpleasant sight of a B17 had been hit and one of the crew had landed quite near our [pause] we were stopped at that particular time. There was thousands of us but there was also a lot of guards with guns. We couldn’t do anything about it but they’d, the civilians got this American and strung him up to a lamp post. And it’s something that I’ll never forget because I remember his feet twitching as he gave in to the rope and he was killed. But as I say we carried on down to Munich. A big prisoner of war camp called Moosburg and we, night after night if you were lucky you had some kind of accommodation that you stopped at where you had a roof over your head. Apart from that you just slept where you stopped. And we eventually got to the prisoner of war camp and there was far too many people. They were erecting tents, big marquees for people because they had run out of legitimate places. The huts to put us in. And I think there was more people there because they were funnelling in from all over Germany. There was some talk at the time that, the general gossip on the, on the march was that Hitler was going to use us as, as [pause] some kind of reckoning with the allies to get better terms for ending the war but it didn’t happen. But it was one of the things. The funniest thing I ever saw was we had people, guards approaching us with bits of paper saying they’d committed no atrocity. It was that near to the end of the war that they wanted us to sign. And we was, this was at the very end of the march and there was a group of Yanks had got what bits and pieces that they’d got and they’d found an old pram and they piled it all in the pram and they’d got the guard that was guarding their part of the march to put his rifle on the pram and push the pram. And as I say it was that near the end of the war you could get away with quite a lot although things weren’t that good because we were attacked. Fighter Command was sending the American’s Thunderbolts and Mosquitoes and they were having a go at, they were having a go at anything that moved in Germany in those days and when we were on the march they just attacked us and killed five people I believe and wounded quite a few before they realised that we were ex-POWs. But from there we [pause] we were liberated by General “blood and guts” Patton who came in on a jeep with his pearl handled revolvers and we were flown by, after a wait of two or three days at an airfield we managed to get aboard a Dakota and we were flown to Reims in France where Lancasters were coming in nose to tail and we were just piling aboard. We looked a disgusting sight because we were filthy dirty. We wore the same clothes that we were shot down in and I’d had dysentery and we weren’t very nice people to be near. But anyhow, I got aboard a Lancaster and I managed to climb in to the mid-upper turret and as he come over the Channel it was quite a sight to see the white cliffs of Dover. Although we hadn’t been prisoners of war more than three months it was three months that I could have done without. Anyhow, we landed at Cosford. They deloused us which sticking, which is sticking a gun of DDT powder down the front of your blouse and firing it off so that you got white DDT powder coming out of everywhere. And then we had showers, medical examinations, they, they had tables loaded with food which I’d got down to seven and a half stone in that short period and we weren’t able to eat a lot. But we did start to eat again and they gave us money to take on leave and also food coupons which we were told to take home to your family so they could fatten you up a bit and travel warrants and they just sent to the railway system and go home you know. We’ll contact you when you’re ready which was quite a few weeks. I think it was about five weeks and we, I got back to Tunbridge and by which time they hadn’t, they didn’t know that I’d made it and so when I walked down Priory Road, Tunbridge the last communication my father had got was a telegram saying that I was missing from night operations and there would be a letter to follow which he didn’t appear to have got. But they, they were quite convinced that I’d had it and then I put just put in an appearance. And it was the usual kind of festivities. My sister, two sisters were cooking and sitting me down and trying to stuff me with food that I couldn’t eat. Not that vast amount. But over a period of time I got back to normal and went back to the RAF and I ended up as understudy wing warrant officer at Cranwell College which was quite an experience. And that was it. From there I was demobbed and came back. There was no way that I was going to go back to being gentleman’s outfitters so I started doing, learning upholstery and started a business in Tonbridge which is still going to this day. As —
SP: What’s that called? What’s your business called? What was it?
AA: It’s called Botten and Andrews. I had a partner called Botten. Well, he, he’d, he’s died. His son is running the business now and he’s making quite a success of it and. Apart from the fact that I have no financial interests in it he still kept my name over the door. And that was the end of it.
[recording paused]
SP: Ok, Andy. Thanks for, for all that information there. So, you were talking about your base was Melbourne in Yorkshire. Do you want to tell me a little bit about —
AA: Well, yeah, we were a wartime airfield dispersed with huts all, all the way around the perimeter of the airfield and we as a crew had a small hut which we, our two gunners who were senior in age to me, I was the youngest in the crew and they used to forage for fuel for the stove. And the local farmers they bartered their way into getting some eggs and stuff like that and we could do a bit of toast on this tortoise stove and one way or the other where you, as young men we had quite big appetites and although we were fed quite well in the mess but anyhow, we subsidised it with whatever we could get from local farmers and what have you. But as I say Melbourne was one of the few airfields that had FIDO which was fog dispersal and we used it because the two previous mine laying expeditions that we’d been on we’d taken off with the aid of FIDO because it was quite foggy. And the other big experience we had with FIDO was in ’44 just before Christmas lieutenant colonel, the film star, James Stewart came in with a flight of B17s and they had quite a time in the mess with us which was primitive by their standards but they thoroughly enjoyed it. And we used to go out to, if we had a stand down we’d, and there was time there was transport provided to go in to York which was round about twelve and a half miles from Melbourne to the centre of York and we’d chat up the local girls. And we went to a place, we used to go to a place called De Grey Rooms which is still there and they had dances and you used to totter in there after drinking in the local hostelries all evening and subject the local girls to our drunken whatever. Anyhow, the point is that we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves and at the end of the evening there was a small hut by York Station that used to keep open all night I think and you could get a mug of tea and a wad of, of roll with cheese in it and sit there and wait for members of your crew to turn up so that you could share a taxi to get back because you’d missed the last transport. The other thing was, talking of transport Wing Commander Shannon who was the CO of 10 Squadron he, somebody had picked up a bus from York and managed with their information which they must have gained through being either on the buses or mechanics they got it started and took everybody back to 10 Squadron which was quite good. But they parked it outside and he was, he had us in to the main briefing area and he said that he would get to the bottom of it and in the meantime he was going to smarten up the aircrew. No more would they be coming in to the mess for breakfast in their pyjamas underneath their battledress and he was going to have us trotting around the perimeter track to get fit. To make us a lot fitter than what we were. But anyhow, it didn’t really work and he had to give it up in the end. Hence the fact that one of the songs of 10 Squadron was a song that went to the best of my knowledge, “There’s A Flight and B Flight and C Flight you see. But the best of them all is the WT. Fly high. Fly low. Where every go, shiny 10 Squadron will give a good show. Now, old Wingco Shannon he raves and he shouts and he talks about things that he knows nothing about. Fly high. Fly low. Where ever you go, shiny 10 Squadron will give a good show.” And as I say, I think it goes on from there but that’s as much as I can remember and I can’t think of any more that I can tell you. I’m very glad that I got in to Bomber Command although I look back and think that we did a good job and it was great I won’t admit, I won’t admit to saying that I said a lot more religious prayers just before take-off on ops than what I’d ever thought that I would get around to and the feeling in the stomach before you got aboard was unbelievable. Anybody says that they flew over Germany and faced flak and night fighters and weren’t scared I don’t think they were ever there. But it was an experience that I wouldn’t have missed for the world. Well, I couldn’t have missed for the world. I was there and you did it. But I was very glad in hindsight that, that Bomber Command was the place where I’d like to be. So, thank you very much.
SP: Yeah. Well, Andy, thank you on behalf of International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archives. I’d like to thank you for your amazing story and also we got some singing on there.
AA: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: Some amazing singing as well.
AA: Yeah.
SP: Ok. Well, thank you very much.
AA: Yeah.
[recording paused]
SP: I’ll just check it rather retake it than drive all the way back down.
AA: Well, quite.
SP: But we’ll be fine, I’m sure.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Andy Andrews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAndrewsPF170911, PAndrewsPF1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
CC BY-NC 4.0 International license
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Denmark
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lancashire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Denmark--Copenhagen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Oberursel
Germany--Rostock
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1944
1945-02-14
Description
An account of the resource
Andy Andrews worked in a gentleman's outfitters shop and volunteered for the Air Force in 1941. He trained at RAF Cardington and Blackpool and after crewing up he flew operations with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. He discusses the members of his crew and describes being shot down by a Ju 88 on his 19th operation during a mine laying operation. His pilot and navigator were both killed and he discusses how he and the rest of the crew baled out before their aircraft exploded. He landed in a field in Denmark badly wounded to the face and hands and was taken to a hospital. He had met some members of the resistance and was preparing to evade when he was captured by the Germans and became a prisoner of war. He discusses his medical treatment and interrogation and witnessing the lynching an American airman during a forced march away from the advancing allied troops. After he was liberated he returned to Great Britain on board a Lancaster as part of Operation Exodus. His family had believed he was dead. After being demobilised he started his own business. Towards the end of the interview he talks about a visit to RAF Melbourne by the actor James Stewart, nights out in York, and Wing Commander Shannon, his Commanding Officer. He also sings a song about 'Shiny Ten Squadron'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:48:09 audio recording
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
aircrew
B-17
bombing
crewing up
Dulag Luft
evading
FIDO
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 52
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
lynching
military living conditions
mine laying
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Cardington
RAF Cranwell
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
Resistance
shot down
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/64/570/PPasettiAMS1601.1.jpg
c52879854d82d0ca826e5075ea08910e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/64/570/APasettiAMS161201.1.mp3
d137f8372b92375770643fbbcefa1221
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Serafini, Anna Maria
Anna Maria Serafini
A M Serafini
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Anna Maria Serafini (b. 1922) who recollects her wartime experiences in Bologn and Imola.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pasetti, AM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GF: Buongiorno signora Maria.
AMS: Buongiorno.
GF: Le chiedo se può raccontarmi cosa faceva, com’era la sua famiglia, dove abitava prima che scoppiasse la guerra.
AMS: Dunque io abitavo in via Pascoli 7, i miei genitori, mio papà ingegner Filippo Serafini [pause] era presidente dell’Aeroclub di Bologna [pause] devo andare avanti?
GF: Sì, sì, prego, mi racconti pure.
AMS: Ah, allora io ero giovane perché sono nata del ’22, il 16 luglio del ’22, perciò sono stata prima a scuola, alle scuole Pascoli poi sono passata al liceo Galvani che era un liceo molto importante a Bologna, ed era gli studi classici. Io facevo il liceo, quando è stata la seconda liceo, mi sono fidanzata con Luigi Pasetti che allora era uno studente. Lui era appassionato di volo, mio padre era il presidente dell’Aeroclub di Bologna, il mio, allora il mio fidanzato prese il brevetto di pilota civile, con questo lui sarebbe stato richiamato in aeronautica qualora lo avessero richiamato. E così noi eravamo fidanzati e scoppiò la guerra, eravamo ancora fidanzati. Mio marito fu subito richiamato, fece ehm il servizio militare come aviatore eh, e io continuai gli studi fino avere la licenza del liceo classico. Siccome mio marito, insomma il mio fidanzato, era lontano io mi, avevo preso il diploma del liceo classico, mio papà, benché io fossi molto giovane - avevo 19 anni - ci lasciò sposare e noi ci siamo sposati il 9 aprile del ’42 in piena guerra. Fu un matrimonio proprio bello, di guerra mio marito era in divisa da tenente, sottotenente dell’aviazione, e lì c’è la fotografia. E poi mio testimone fu il generale Ranza, Ferruccio Ranza un eroe della guerra mondiale, della seconda guerra mondiale, anche lui generale d’aviazione. E testimone di mio marito fu un suo collega anche lui sottotenente d’aviazione. Mio papà era in divisa da colonnello d’aeronautica perché lui aveva fatto la prima guerra mondiale come pioniere dell’aria infatti lui era vice presidente dei Pionieri d’Italia, ero stato uno dei primi aviatori italiani nella prima guerra mondiale. E allora in certe occasioni poteva vestire la divisa perciò fu tutto un matrimonio in divisa. Noi ci siamo sposati il 9 di aprile del ’42, finita la licenza che mio marito aveva avuto per un mese io lo seguii perché lui era allo stormo di bombardamento all’aeroporto di Aviano, a Pordenone, io vivevo in albergo a Pordenone e lui faceva il suo servizio militare. Siccome ero rimasta incinta sono rimasta lì vari mesi poi quando fu il momento di, che dovesse nascere questa bambina io sono venuta a Bologna, in Strada Maggiore 26. Siccome allora c’erano i bombardamenti sulla città di Bologna però noi si sperava che essendo una casa così in centro, quasi vicino alle due torri lì si potesse stare abbastanza tranquilli. E allora i vari inquilini, erano quattro, quattro o cinque, costruirono un rifugio nelle cantine della casa Rossini, c’erano delle belle cantine grandi. Io non sono mai stata in una cantina, in un rifugio di quelli pubblici, quando c’erano gli allarmi, io avevo la bambina piccola, io correvo giù in questo rifugio che era stato costruito per nostro, per nostra necessità, avevano, con dei pali, avevano sostenuto i muri, avevano messo tanti sacchetti di sabbia e poi delle panche contro il muro. E così quando suonava l’allarme, io correvo giù, e sempre con la bambina in braccio, con questa bambina stretta in braccio, e li sentivamo, sentivamo le fortezze volanti che arrivavano e naturalmente si stava con un po’ di agitazione. Io poi soprattutto avevo paura che la bambina si spaventasse, la piccolina aveva circa un anno, un anno e mezzo e allora magari giocherellavo con la bambina. E poi dicevano ‘Oh è caduta una bomba, dev’essere alla Corticella’ oppure ‘Dev’essere da qualche altra parte’ ma stavamo lì buoni, poi finiva l’allarme, venivamo su, riprendevamo la vita più normale possibile. Una volta mi sembra che fu nel 25 settembre, noi eravamo giù e cominciammo a sentire delle ondate [emphasis] di aeroplani, ondate! Venivano, e poi ne arrivavano degli altri, degli altri: un bombardamento terribile, la terra tremava e allora eravamo, io, io ero molto molto preoccupata, soprattutto sempre per la bambina, e mi stringevo la bambina. C’era qualcuno che pregava e si stava così. E quello fu il terribile bombardamento che cominciò dal Sant’Orsola, caddero le prime bombe sull’ospedale Sant’Orsola, e poi vennero avanti e fu un bombardamento terribile alla stazione e poi continuò dopo la stazione verso la Corticella giù. E si sentivano sempre questi aeroplani, erano le fortezze volanti che arrivavano di continuo, di continuo, fu un bombardamento lunghissimo, durò per tanto tempo e quello fu per me il bombardamento più terribile. Mio marito infatti, che allora era stato portato da Aviano a Gorizia, all’aeroporto di Gorizia, chiese una licenza per venire a vedere come stava la sua famiglia dopo questo bombardamento ed ebbe alcuni giorni di licenza. Ci trovò tutti bene, il tragico fu quando uscimmo dal nostro rifugio e ci dissero tutto quello che era successo, per fortuna lì in centro delle bombe non erano cadute e noi ci siamo salvati. Dopo quell’avvenimento, la mia famiglia pensò che era bene lasciare la città e come tanti essere sfollati e allora andammo nella villa dei Pasetti, vicino a Imola in via Piratello dove la villa era un po’ isolata, nascosta fra gli alberi e si pensava lì di stare più tranquilli. Per me, e lì anche c’erano, ogni tanto passavano gli aeroplani e lasciavano cadere delle bombe, o su Imola o sulla ferrovia che era a 300 metri dalla nostra villa, perché la villa era tra la via Emilia da una parte, 800 metri e dall’altra 300 metri la linea ferroviaria quella l’adriatica, quella che da Bologna va verso Ancona, allora cosa volevo dire. Ecco allora sì anche lì c’eravamo fatti una specie di rifugio in campagna, un buco per terra e quando sentivamo gli aeroplani corravamo lì ma non era una cosa molto sicura. Per me l’emozione più grossa l’ho avuta per un mitragliamento e questo è l’episodio che io vorrei raccontare. Posso parlare?
GF: Ovviamente sì, prego.
AMS: Nell’estate del ’44, estate del ’44, mio marito, siccome era caduto, insomma l’Italia aveva chiesto, aveva chiesto, come posso dire, l’Italia era divisa in due, è vero? Mio marito non si era più presentato tra i militari e faceva il partigiano eh, e allora siccome la nostra villa lì era stata requisita quasi tutta dai militari tedeschi noi c’eravamo ridotti tutti in due stanze a pianterreno, la cucina e un’altra stanza e poi, al primo piano e c’eravamo tutti ridotti lì, perché anche la mia famiglia il mio papà, la mia mamma, la mia nonna e le mie sorelle ancora ragazze erano venute tutte lì sfollate. Allora siccome io insomma eravamo messi un po’ molto male con i tedeschi che entravano uscivano, mio marito doveva stare nascosto perché lui era partigiano. Allora un nostro amico che si chiamava Luigi Baruzzi ci disse che avrebbe potuto ospitarci in una casa che aveva su in collina a Monteloro si chiamava, Monteloro sopra il paese di Borgo Tossignano, circa a una ventina di chilometri da Imola, dice, era una casa molto isolata là in montagna, abbastanza sicura. E allora noi, mio marito, io e la bambina avremmo potuto avere un po’ di ospitalità lì da loro per stare un po’ più tranquilli per un certo periodo e così accettammo. Mio marito, in segreto, di nascosto, trovò un cavallo, un calesse, caricò me, la bambina, alcuna qualche cosa di vestiario, qualche cosa di viveri, dei viveri e poi attraverso delle stradine secondarie, arrivammo alla via montanara che era la strada che collegava Imola con Borgo Tossignano e poi andava su verso la Toscana. Lì a un certo punto avremmo dovuto voltare a sinistra e andare su per la collina per arrivare a Monteloro. Mentre noi eravamo sul calesse in questa strada bianca perché non era neanche asfaltata, mio marito che era aviatore sentì da lontano un rombo allora lui capì subito il pericolo, fermò il calesse, fu velocissimo, scese dal calesse, mi tirò giù proprio dal calesse, io avevo sempre la bambina stretta in braccio. Di fianco alla strada, c’era un campo con del granoturco, con le piante di granoturco abbastanza alte. Allora lui in gran velocità mi fece saltare il fosso che c’era tra la strada e il campo, io siccome era d’estate avevo i sandali e i piedi nudi, lì c’erano tutti i rovi, mi sarei potuta ferire, allora lui aveva gli stivali allora pestò un po’ per terra ma in gran velocità, mi fece mettere i piedi lì dove lui aveva pestato, e poi mi buttò giù per terra in mezzo alle piante di mais. Io avevo la bambina sotto di me, lui aveva una sahariana verde e si buttò su di noi e mi metteva la testa mi teneva la testa giù con le mani così. Insomma l’aeroplano passò, vide naturalmente il calesse il cavallo sulla strada, ma a noi non ci vide nel campo e cominciò a mitragliare, a mitragliare il calesse e io sentivo i colpi della mitragliatrice cadere tutti intorno a me, fu uno spavento terribile però avevo mio marito che ci copriva con il suo corpo e allora eh eh, ma quella fu l’amozione più grande [gets emotional] perché sentii proprio i colpi vicini eh. Poi l’aeroplano passò dopo aver mitragliato, colpì il calesse ma il cavallo non lo colpì, allora mio marito disse ‘Stiamo ancora qui nascosti perché c’è il caso che torni indietro’ invece poi l’aeroplano non ritornò allora salimmo di nuovo nel calesse e in fretta raggiungemmo questo posto che si chiamava Monteloro. Io finirei così eh? Poi non so se vuol sospendere eh?
AMS: Posso chiederle Anna Maria se in quel momento si ricorda o aveva coscienza di chi la stava mitragliando, di chi era?
GF: No veramente io personalmente non capivo, so che era un aeroplano, non sapevo se era o tedesco o inglese non sapevo, o americano non sapevo, no.
GF: E passato quel momento poi l’ha scoperto?
AMS: Non ho capito.
GF: L’ha scoperto poi chi erano?
AMS: Sa che non mi ricordo? Non mi ricordo, ma, non mi ricordo, no.
GF: Suo marito cosa diceva?
AMS: Non lo so, non mi ricordo, no.
GF: Non si preoccupi, non si preoccupi. Allora se, se è d’accordo tornerei un attimo al ’42 quando è andata a Pordenone con suo marito.
AMS: Sì.
GF: Ok, mi ha detto che suo marito era un pilota dello stormo bombardieri.
AMS: Sì, sì.
GF: Mi può raccontare che cosa faceva? Se lo ricorda?
AMS: [pause] Dunque azioni di guerra no, da lì non ne ha mai fatte, dopo quando è passato a Gorizia, eeeh aspetti che anno? Subito l’anno dopo passò a Gorizia lui passò nei aerei siluranti, allora sì che partecipò a un’azione. Partivano da Gorizia con le, come si chiamano, non le bombe, sotto l’aeroplano e poi andavano a cercare nel mare, nell’Adriatico se c’era qualche nave inglese da silurare, ecco il siluro. Avevano due siluri sotto all’aeroplano, sotto l’apparecchio e da Gorizia partivano per fare questi siluramenti e mio marito partecipò a uno. Però non fece niente di, insomma non colpirono, non furono, tornarono eeeh senza, ma fu un’azione di guerra. Invece un suo collega, colpì proprio una nave, silurò una nave inglese, sempre partendo da Gorizia. [pause] Invece da Pordenone, da Aviano, facevano dei voli di addestramento, dei voli notturni ma non erano azioni di guerra. [pause] Poi cosa mi vuol chiedere?
GF: E parlava suo marito con lei si queste cose? Della guerra parlavate?
AMS: Mah di giorno in giorno diceva anche qualche cosa, mah. Però non è che mi desse dei particolari no.
GF: Allora torniamo adesso a quando lei torna a Bologna, con sua figlia piccola.
AMS: Sì.
GF: Eh mi ha raccontato che ehm avevate questo rifugio.
AMS: Sì.
GF: Ecco da quando, posso chiederle se mi racconta, da quando suonava l’allarme, a quando andavate, cosa facevate, cosa facevate durante il periodo?
AMS: L’allarme?
GF: Sì.
AMS: Ah ah, cosa vuole che facessimo? Eravamo lì, c’erano due panche, lo spazio poi era diventato ristretto perché coi sacchetti coi pali, la cantina si era ristretta e si stava lì, si cercava di sentire, se si sentiva qualche rombo, qualche colpo, ma si stava lì abbastanza tranquilli, io non ho assistito a delle scene di panico, no? Più che altro magari mia nonna sgranava il rosario ecco qualche d’uno pregava, io cercavo sempre di stare con la bambina a fare dei giochetti tanto tranquillizzarla, e poi insomma, non è che l’allarme durasse poi tantissimo, una mezz’oretta una cosa così. E invece poi fu il bombardamento che durò molto, molto eh.
GF: E quali emozioni provava? Se le ricorda che emozioni provava in quei momenti?
AMS: Mah emozioni, eh sì un po’ di preoccupazione, non è che fossi proprio molto molto agitata, no.
GF: C’erano anche i suoi genitori?
AMS: No, no, perché io stavo in Strada Maggiore e loro stavano in via Pascoli, loro avevano poi un altro rifugio.
GF: Invece poi l’anno dopo siete sfollati.
AMS: Sì siamo sfollati, siamo sfollati nella villa in campanga, allora anche i miei genitori, mia nonna, le mie sorelle, sono tutti venuti lì e lì avevamo questo buco nella terra perché su Imola anche ogni tanto sganciavano ma lì da noi no, però si aveva paura dei bombardamenti, dei mitragliamenti più che altro. Perché quasi tutte le sere, un apparecchio, noi dicevamo inglese ma non so se fosse americano eeeh, lo chiamavamo Pippo, lo chiamavamo Pippo ‘Ecco adesso arriva Pippo’ perché si abbassava e mitragliava, mitragliava le case, ecco quello faceva un po’ ‘Oooh, attenti attenti che adesso arriva Pippo!’ e allora ci mettevamo contro il muro, io avevo messo la culla della bambina in una zona contro il muro, una zona che non guardasse la finestra, in modo che il muro riparasse da queste mitragliate, passava e mitragliava quasi tutte le sere. Poi lì il brutto erano i tedeschi che occupavano la casa, capisce? Che sa questi militari così, e allora si stava stretti. Ma si viveva poi così di giorno in giorno, non è che si provasse sempre tutta questa gran paura, capisce? Eh, anche durante i bombardamenti qui a Bologna, noi pensavamo che lì a casa fosse abbastanza tranquillo, mia mamma solo diceva ‘Qui facciamo la fine dei topi, qui sotto!’ ma doveva proprio caderci una bomba in testa eh! Non è che fossi proprio agitatissima, no. Sa, quando poi si è anche molto giovani, si è anche un po’ spericolati, eh io poi pensavo a mio marito che era militare, che era via no, non è che mi agitassi molto. Correvo giù in rifugio, sì quello sì perché mi dicevano che bisognava andare in rifugio, è meglio andare in rifugio ma ero abbastanza tranquilla eh. Sì io poi ho vissuto, quello può essere ancora interessante, quando la liberazione di Bologna, quello è stato interessante. Dunque Bologna è stata liberata da truppe polacche che naturalmente erano con gli americani eh, ma erano truppe polacche. E ci fu, noi eravamo tornati a Bologna perché in campagna non si poteva più vivere, la casa era stata tutta requisita allora noi a un certo momento tornammo in città e anche i miei genitori, che siccome i tedeschi avevano fatto la Sperzone che si chiamava, cioè la zona centrale della città e entro la Sperzone che erano i viali in circonvallazione, mio padre e mia madre stavano in questa villa proprio al limite della Sperzone perché era sui viali Gozzadini, allora vennero nella nostra casa di Strada Maggiore 26. Quando ci fu, diciamo, come la liberazione di Bologna, ci fu prima una grossa battaglia la Battaglia della Gaiana che è un paese, un posto tra Castel San Pietro, cioè Imola, Castel San Pietro e Bologna. Lì ci fu una battaglia tenuta dalle truppe dalle truppe polacche, polacche contro i tedeschi e i tedeschi si ritirarono. Dopo la battaglia della Gaiana le truppe polacche entrarono a Bologna ed entrarono una parte per porta Santo Stefano e una parte per porta Mazzini, perciò lì a Strada Maggiore. Io con la bambina in braccio sempre, e i miei genitori, eravamo tutti sul balcone di casa Rossini, avevamo messo fuori una bandiera e applaudivamo le truppe polacche che arrivavano proprio lì sotto di noi, anzi, siccome era poi veniva l’ora del pranzo invitammo un soldato polacco a venire a mangiare con noi, e mangiò con noi a tavola. Noi, io poi personalmente, conobbi il comandante polacco che era un giovane tenente, il cappellano polacco e il dottore polacco dell’armata. Io c’ho lì un libro che mi ha regalato il dottore polacco con tanto di dedica perché eravamo diventati amici di questo gruppo polacco che aveva salvato Bologna. Questo è molto interessante, se vuol vedere le faccio vedere anche il libro con la firma.
GF: Sì, dopo volentieri. Quindi avete festeggiato alla liberazione?
AMS: Sì, noi abbiamo, perché dopo la vera liberazione che fu a Milano fu tre giorni dopo, ma a Bologna fu prima, tre giorni prima e furono i polacchi. Ah poi le dico un altro particolare che siccome in cima alla torre Asinelli avevano messo, i partigiani, avevano messo una bandiera rossa, appena i polacchi entrarono e videro quella bandiera rossa corsero su e via strapparono la bandiera rossa e misero la bandiera americana in cima alla torre Asinelli. Io dalla finestra, da una finestra del mio appartamento, vedevo la torre vedevo la cima della torre! E così vedevo questa scena di aver tolto la bandiera e aver messo quella americana, ha capito? Quello è stato anche un bell’episodio. Dopo siccome i polacchi vollero festeggiare il loro comandante, questo sottotenente, questo tenente, fecero una festa alla Gaiana, in un fienile di un contadino che era poi la proprietà dei principi Ruffo e a questa festa di militari polacchi invitarono anche me, mio marito e le mie due sorelle che erano ragazze. E così vedemmo il comandante polacco che si alzò in piedi durante il pranzo con la spada sguainata e poi tutti che lo festeggiavano, i suoi militari, ha capito? E poi io era diventata molto molto buona amica del cappellano che poi è saltato su una bomba, su una mina è saltato su una, ed è sepolto nel cimitero polacco di San Lazzaro, ma non mi ricordo il cognome, lo chiamavamo, lo chiamavamo cappellanie che in polacco il vocativo finisce in –ie, allora lo chiamavamo ‘Il cappellanie! Arriva il cappellanie!’. E veniva veniva a trovarci era molto carino. E poi c’era il dottore, il ‘dottorje’, il ‘dottorje’. Il dottore si chiamava Stanislav Krusceche e c’ho lì il libro che mi ha regalato che era ‘Tristano e Isolde’ in inglese e ha scritto come dedica ‘A great roman for a little lady’ e poi la sua firma, e quello ce l’ho lì. E quello è stato un bel periodo eh. Dopo, dopo tre giorni hanno liberato Milano, hanno liberato l’Italia e poi il governatore americano che era diventato governatore di Bologna, io lo avevo conosciuto molto bene ma non mi ricordo il cognome, questo questo governatore, che poi diventò da Bologna diventò governatore di Trieste, era un governatore americano, e davano delle feste da ballo e io ero sempre invitata a queste feste da ballo e ho ballato molto col governatore perché diceva che io ballavo molto bene. Quando io entravo in sala che generalmente le feste le facevano nel salone del palazzo Montanari in via Galiera, quando io entravo arrivava l’attendente del governatore e mi diceva ‘Il governatore vuole poi ballare con lei’ e io dicevo ‘Molto volentieri’ e così ho ballato col governatore americano. Però non è che noi che io ho legato poi molto con le truppe americane, no! Andavamo sì a qualche festa che loro davano ma così insomma, io stavo sempre in Strada Maggiore, al 26. Questo è stato subito dopo la guerra, perché poi la nostra villa in campagna, dopo i tedeschi quando arrivarono le truppe ci andarono prima i polacchi, fu sempre requisita da dei militari, allora ci andarono prima i polacchi e poi delle truppe americane, poi finalmente quando tutto si tranquillizzò e noi potemmo ritornare nella nostra villa in campagna era un disastro: la villa era rovinatissima, il giardino tutto buttato per aria e abbiamo dovuto ricominciare a ricostruire. Mio marito ha passato tutto il dopoguerra a ricostruire, ricostruire la nostra casa in campagna e le case dei contadini perché mio marito aveva quattro case coloniche e allora a ricostruire le case, a riprendere gli animali, le mucche così perché non c’era rimasto più niente, eh! E anche nel nostro giardino, a piantare gli alberi andavamo io e mio marito andavamo da Ansaloni a San Lazzaro che era un vivaio molto bello e compravamo gli alberi già abbastanza grandi e li facevamo piantare in giardino per rifare un po’ il giardino.
GF: Le va di raccontarmi di quando i tedeschi erano nella sua villa, della convivenza con loro, com’era?
AMS: Aaah, era era cercavamo di stare più separati possibile, aver meno contatti possibili ma al principio, lì nella nostra villa, siccome era vicina al cimitero del, del Piratello eh, lì nel cimitero di Imola cominciarono a seppellire i soldati tedeschi che cadevano mano a mano o in una schermaglia o in una piccola battaglia e li portavano lì e li portavano a seppellire lì. Allora nella nostra villa fecero l’ufficio del cimitero, venne un maresciallo tedesco che era un maestro di scuola mi ricordo che lui ci disse e noi lo chiamavamo il ‘grebelino’ perché ‘grebel’ in tedesco vuol dire tomba, eh? E allora quella era la sede dei ‘grebel’ cioè dei di quelli dei tedeschi che venivano sepolti, gli venivano dati i documenti lui poi questo ufficiale, questo militare questo maresciallo tedesco mandava le notizie alle famiglie, capito? Allora finché abbiamo avuto quei militari lì che erano un ufficio diremo, noi siamo andati abbastanza bene, insomma eravamo abbastanza tranquilli, quando spostarono questo ufficio perché il, l’armata tedesca mano a mano si ritirava, allora anche loro si ritirarono, andarono più avanti e allora vennero proprio le truppe quelle da combattimento con i carri armati e quelli sa, quelli facevano una gran paura, quelli facevano una gran paura sì, perché sa venivano, e giravano per casa, volevano i bagni, erano un po’ prepotenti, eh! Dopo noi abbiamo lasciato la villa e allora dopo hanno fatto quello che hanno voluto ma andati via i tedeschi dopo lì sono venuti i polacchi hanno occupato la villa i polacchi ma noi eravamo poi a Bologna. Eh, coi tedeschi in casa sa, eh era piuttosto preoccupante, eh! Anche perché una volta vennero giù in cantina da noi nella villa e presero tutto il vino che c’era. Noi mio marito, insomma la famiglia di mio marito, aveva delle antiche bottiglie ancora s’immagini del tempo della rivoluzione francese, con sopra il cartellino scritto ancora con la vecchia calligrafia, ma non era più vino, era un rimasuglio, ha capito perché era una cosa vecchia, e lo tenevano come ricordo. Quando vennero certe truppe tedesche portarono via tutto il vino che c’era e portarono via anche quelle bottiglie. Noi lo dicevamo ‘Ma quelle non sono da prendere, non son da bere’. Dopo tornarono cattivi! Arrabbiati perché dice che gli avevamo dato del vino cattivo: avevano aperto le bottiglie del ‘700! Quello non era più vino, erano delle vecchie bottiglie tenute come ricordo, noi l’avevamo detto ma loro non hanno voluto capire o sentire e dopo vennero arrabbiatissimi, erano arrabbiati dicendo ‘Ci avete dato del vino cattivo!’. Noi eh, ce lo avevano portati via, eh! [pause]
GF: Prima, prima mi ha detto che suo marito dopo il ’43 era diventato partigiano, le va di raccontarmi questa storia?
AMS: Sì, sì dunque, gli uomini, in quel periodo, dovevano stare nascosti perché avevamo i tedeschi dappertutto e se li avessero trovati li avrebbero mandati in un campo di concentramento e allora mio marito andava su in collina e si trovava con degli altri, eh! Era così. Poi veniva a casa, di nascosto sempre e poi stava con gli altri ma non è che ha fatto delle azioni da partigiano, lui stava così nascosto assieme a degli altri per non essere presi dai tedeschi.
GF: E dopo la liberazione invece? Ha ripreso il suo lavoro?
AMS: Ha ripreso?
GF: È tornato nell’aviazione?
AMS: No, ascolti, quello fu un mio grande dispiacere perché io avrei voluto che lui tornasse in aviazione come militare ma siccome intanto era morto mio suocero, lui aveva la campagna e la terra da seguire, tutte queste cose da ricostruire, lui disse ‘No, io lascio l’arma’ ma lui fu, è rimasto sempre attaccato all’aviazione tanto è vero che vede lì le fotografie. Lui poi da morto ha voluto che gli mettessimo la divisa da capitano d’aviazione, perché intanto era diventato capitano, perché lui era rimasto attaccatissimo all’aviazione ma non aveva più voluto fare il servizio militare. Perché aveva quel po’ di terra da seguire, intanto poi ci erano nati degli altri figli e allora insomma non ha più fatto il militare no. E io ebbi un gran dispiacere perché io gli dissi ‘Alla terra posso tenerci dietro e tu fare il tuo servizio militare perché è quella la tua strada!’ Perché lui poi aveva la passione della meteorologia e allora sa, avrebbe potuto per dire andare alla televisione a fare sa quelle spiegazioni del tempo così, perché lui come militare seguiva molto la metereologia [emphasis], ma lui non ha più voluto. Anche perché poi mio marito purtroppo si ammalò molto molto presto di cuore e aveva il cuore che non era più buono, continuò a volare come aviatore civile su apparecchi civili ma così con dei voletti. Fece anche il volo a vela, fece anche il volo a vela partendo dall’aeroporto di Bologna, veniva lanciato, lui era in un carrello c’era un aeroplano che lo trainava con una corda e lo lanciava e quando era per aria lo staccava e lui con questa navicella stava così un po’ in aria e poi cercava di ridiscendere. Io lo vidi, sa una paura terribile! E dissi ‘Guarda io non vengo più a vedere quando fai il volo a vela!’. Perché lui era rimasto sempre molto attaccato all’aviazione, però non volle più fare il servizio militare.
GF: Signora Anna Maria torno ancora una volta, per l’ultima volta sui bombardamenti.
AMS: Sì.
GF: Le volevo chiedere, quando era a Bologna e bombardavano.
AMS: Sì.
GF: Sapevate chi vi stava bombardando, cosa pensavate di chi vi bombardava?
AMS: Ah lo sapevamo che erano gli americani! Lo sapevamo sì, erano le fortezze volanti, le fortezze volanti erano solo americane.
GF: E ne parlavate? Cosa pensavate?
AMS: Eh pensavamo che era la guerra eh eh così, era la guerra. Noi poi pensavamo che i tedeschi se ne andassero che arrivassero questi americani a liberarci perché avevano liberato una parte dell’Italia e poi si fermarono l’ultimo inverno, si fermarono a un fiumicello che si chiamava il Pisciatello, Pisciatello, era un piccolo fiume e lì si fermarono gli americani tutto l’inverno e noi non vedevamo l’ora che arrivassero gli americani, per finire di liberare tutta l’Italia. E sapevamo che erano loro che ci bombardavano e dicevamo ‘Eh è la guerra, eh speriamo che finisca presto eh!’. Ma lo sapevamo benissimo chi era che ci bombardava, sì. I mitragliamenti no, perché quando veniva un apparecchio isolato non si, non si capiva bene se era tedesco, inglese, americano quello non si capiva ma i bombardamenti e quando arrivavano i, le granate su Imola e quello si sapeva che erano americane.
GF: E Pippo?
AMS: Eh Pippo, Pippo dicevamo ‘Arriva Pippo!’ ma io credo che fosse, non so, non sapevamo di preciso chi fosse, c’era sempre questo aeroplano che arrivava e lo chiamavamo Pippo ‘Arriva Pippo, arriva Pippo’.
GF: E avevate paura di Pippo?
AMS: Sì molto, i mitragliamenti facevano molta paura. Io poi che avevo avuto quel grosso mitragliamento ero rimasta impressionata. [pause] Perché non si capiva l’aeroplano che cosa facesse, dove andava, capito? I bombardamenti si sentivano arrivare, queste grandi fortezze volanti che facevano un rombo, un rombo enorme, e poi si sentiva lo sgancio poi si sentivano [makes a hissing sound] boom, si sentiva il fischio, il fischio delle bombe che venivano giù. Eran dei momenti tremendi, si vivevano così, giorno per giorno. [pause]
GF: Mi ha parlato dei tedeschi, e invece dei fascisti?
AMS: Dei?
GF: Dei fascisti?
AMS: Mah i fascisti non so, in che modo dei fascisti?
GF: Cosa pensava, avevano occupato la sua casa i tedeschi, c’erano anche delle truppe fasciste insieme?
AMS: No no.
GF: No.
AMS: Non c’erano truppe fasciste, no no no non c’erano truppe fasciste. Mio padre non è mai stato fascista, gli avevano dato insomma gli avevano dato onoris causa, l’avevano fatto diventare, gli avevano dato il termine fascista, ma lui non era fascista, infatti non ha avuto nessuna nessuna grana, nessuna, niente niente dopo la guerra niente niente, perché lui era, lui era militare della prima guerra mondiale. Vede là ci sono le medaglie che mio padre ha avuto nella prima guerra mondiale, è stato un eroe della prima guerra mondiale, io ti lascio delle fotografie bellissime di mio padre nella prima guerra mondiale, e lui era rimasto sempre, sempre attaccato all’aviazione, sempre come militare come, ma non era fascista, no. E lui essendo anche vice presidente dei Pionieri d’Italia lo volevano fare presidente ma lui disse ‘No, perché per essere il presidente bisogna stare a Roma, io sto a Bologna per me è scomodo, ormai son vecchio’ e lui era vice presidente dei Pionieri d’Italia ma non c’entrava niente col fascismo, no, lui non era fascista, noi non eravamo una famiglia di fascisti, no, non c’eravamo mai dati alla politica, anche mio marito, no mai, mio suocero, no, non, mio padre che era importante perché era presidente dell’aeroclub di Bologna non aveva cariche fasciste, no. Le dirò un particolare da ridere perché quelli che erano poi i capi fascisti avevano la tesserina per andare al cinema gratis, a mia madre piaceva tanto il cinematografo e diceva ‘Uh papà, non ha neanche la tessera, a lui non gliela danno!’ perché lui non era abbastanza, non era fascista capito, non avevamo neanche la tessera no no. E mia madre dice ‘Uh a me piace tanto il cinema ma io devo pagare il biglietto, eh!’ questo per ridere, ha capito? Per dire che non eravamo fascisti no, però eravamo italiani con gran sentimenti patriottici, mio padre sempre la prima guerra mondiale, tutte le cose della prima guerra, tutti i racconti, eh così. Certo noi a scuola dovevamo per forza essere Piccole Italiane, Giovani Italiane per forza, eh a scuola eravamo così eh, però non è che fossimo proprio fascisti no?
GF: Dopo il ’43 ha conosciuto lei personalmente dei partigiani?
AMS: Cosa?
GF: Se ha conosciuto dei partigiani.
AMS: Sì, eh! Io ho conosciuto uno poverino che è stato ucciso, si chiamava, aspetti sa, che era di San, aveva la casa a San Lazzaro ed era uno dei capi partigiani che hanno combattuto e poi è stato ucciso, quello era anche proprio nostro amico sì. E ne ho conosciuti parecchi di quelli che erano i nostri amici da ragazzi anche compagni di scuola che poi erano andati nei partigiani, quindi proprio avevano combattuto, su verso Castel San Pietro, hanno combattuto parecchio i partigiani bolognesi, romagnoli, adesso non mi ricordo più il nome, che eravamo tanto amici, lui aveva una bella villa a San Lazzaro, come si chiamava? Eh non mi ricordo più [pause] e come si chiamava? Eh non mi ricordo.
GF: Non si preoccupi se non ri ricorda il nome non importa.
AMS: Non mi ricordo il nome no.
GF: E a volte scendevano dalle colline e venivano nella vostra villa?
AMS: Come?
GF: A volte scendevano dalle colline e venivano nella vostra villa?
AMS: No, fin da noi no perché eravamo in una brutta zona ha capito? Eravamo oltre la via Emilia, la via Emilia poi noi e poi la ferrovia. I partigiani rimanevano sulla collina, noi eravamo in pianura, no da noi non venivano. Infatti mio marito doveva andare in su per andar da loro, andare in collina [pause].
GF: E li aiutava? Li aiutava? Portava dei rifornimenti, del cibo?
AMS: Ah sì! Sì, sì, dei prosciutti mi ricordo, eh, dei prosciutti e poi del vino, sì, e mi ricordo i prosciutti, mi ricordo i prosciutti.
GF: Volevo chiederle un’altra cosa.
AMS: Sì.
GF: Dopo la liberazione.
AMS: Sì.
GF: Quando c’è stato il referendum.
AMS: Sì.
GF: Lei ha votato, anche lei giusto?
AMS: Sì!
GF: Si ricorda com’era il clima, cosa avete votato?
AMS: Io in quel momento ero monarchica, io dopo la liberazione, siccome si poteva votare o monarchia o repubblica io votai monarchia, anche mio marito. Lo sapevamo che non avremmo vinto, però noi preferivamo la monarchia e invece vinse la repubblica eh, ma io ho votato monarchia, dico la verità. Io allora ero incinta della mia seconda bambina, mi ricordo benissimo, avevo un gran pancione. Andai a votare ma io votai monarchico, perché c’era il referendum, vero, era monarchia o repubblica e io votai monarchia.
GF: Cosa pensava del re?
AMS: Del re pensavo che si era tirato da parte per far posto a Mussolini, che non era stato abbastanza energico però la famiglia Savoia, sa, era una tradizione famigliare. Vede là quella fotografia, quello era un colonnello di cavalleria, era mio nonno materno che era di Torino e lui era aiutante del duca d’Aosta, vede lì che c’è la fotografia del duca d’Aosta con la dedica a mio padre, perché eravamo tutti attaccati alla famiglia Savoia eh! Insomma nella mia famiglia c’erano stati proprio dei rapporti con i Savoia, perché mio nonno era aiutante del duca d’Aosta padre, questo è il duca d’Aosta figlio, che era aviatore e veniva sempre a Bologna. E io l’ho conosciuto gli ho dato una mano ero una bambinetta, gli detti la mano io mi ricordo con l’inchino lui mi strinse la mano perché veniva sempre a Bologna, io ero la figlia del presidente dell’aeroclub, e lui veniva come pilota civile il duca d’Aosta giovane. Poi mi zio, cioè il fratello di mia mamma che è diventato generale di cavalleria, generale di cavalleria nella repubblica è vero? Eh, però lui era stato aiutante anche lui del duca d’Aosta figlio, il nonno del padre e lo zio del figlio del duca d’Aosta, perciò era molte legate ai Savoia capito, eh? E così, a me non è che il re Vittorio Emanuele piacesse molto però era sempre un Savoia, si sperava nella discendenza Savoia, in Umberto II, si sperava, ma. Perché nella tradizione di famiglia, sia di mia madre che erano dei Blanchetti di Torino, sia che anche dei Serafini c’erano un mucchio di generali c’era il generale Serafini, Giuseppe Serafini, Bernardino Serafini era colonnello erano tutti tutti militari, naturalmente allora era l’armata eeeh savoiarda, l’armata monarchica eh? Adesso le faccio vedere.
GF: Sì aspetti perché allora metto in pausa.
AMS: Ha capito perché ho votato monarchia?
GF: Sì. E invece però quando vinse la repubblica, come avete reagito?
AMS: Ah va bene così eh, ah non abbiamo fatto nessuna reazione, hanno scelto la repubblica, evviva la repubblica eh, sì sì non ne abbiamo fatto. Comunque di politica noi non ci siamo mai interessati, anche mio marito mai mai di politica, non si è mai interessato di politica, non era iscritto a nessun partito, no no no, lui aveva solo in mente l’aviazione e basta. Ah quando ci fu la repubblica evviva la repubblica e basta eh.
GF: Va bene signora Anna Maria, io la ringrazio veramente tantissimo per la sua disponibilità.
AMS: Non so se sono stata abbastanza interessante.
GF: È stata bravissima e la sua storia è stata davvero interessantissima, grazie.
AMS: Ma si immagini.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Anna Maria Serafini
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Aviano
Italy--Bologna
Italy--Gorizia
Italy--Imola
Italy--Pordenone
Italy
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Greta Fedele
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-01
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:04:22 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Regia Aereonautica
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-25
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PPasettiAMS1601, APasettiAMS161201
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Anna Maria Serafini recalls her teenage life in Bologna as the fiancée of Luigi Pasetti, a civilian pilot later enlisted as torpedo bomber pilot. Describes how she got married and mentions Italian First World War pilot, Ferruccio Ranza, who acted as best man. Describes what life was like in a small private shelter with a propped ceiling, sandbagged windows and rudimentary furniture. Recalls life under the bombs: trying to keep calm her young daughter; people guessing points of impacts; prayers, games and pastimes. Describes her evacuee life in Imola and the trials and tribulations after the collapse of the fascist regime, when her husband joined the Resistance. Recollects being strafed when travelling on a byway. Describes Germans on admin duties as friendly and well-mannered, whereas those serving in combat units were arrogant and feared. Recollects the Gaiana battle and the occupation of Bologna by allied forces, stressing her connections with Pole officers. Gives an account of family life in the subsequent decades, emphasising loyalty to the monarchy. Judges bombing war from a fatalistic stance, stressing how strafing by isolated aircraft was more feared.
civil defence
evacuation
fear
home front
love and romance
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/170/569/PBuffadossiA1701.1.jpg
de29f384fbe6b8a34624abaecadf669e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/170/569/ABuffadossiA170528.2.mp3
ddcda3308299dee23387a698645c7f05
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Buffadossi, Annunciata
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Annunciata Buffadossi (b. 1932) who recollects her wartime experiences in Milan and in the Lake Maggiore area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Buffadossi, A
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ZG: Abbiamo iniziato? Sì.
AB: Il mio nome...
ZG: Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, l’intervistata è Annunciata Buffadossi. Nella stanza sono presenti Marialuigia Buffadossi, la sorella, Nava Spizzichino, l’amica delle due sorelle, e Sara Buda, come, dell’Associazione Lapsus. Siamo in [omitted] a Milano ed è il 28 maggio 2017. Nell’intervista saranno fatti dei cenni all’intervista fatta precedentemente da Sara Buda alla signora Marialuigia. Iniziamo. Si presenti pure.
AB: Io mi chiamo Buffadossi Annunciata. Sono nata l’11 ottobre 1932 a Milano, perciò sono proprio del tempo di guerra.
ZG: Ehm...
AB: Nel ’32, sono nata nel ’32, perciò è iniziata la guerra nel ’40, quando io avevo otto anni e facevo la terza elementare. Facevo la terza, siccome sono sempre, sono nata in Via Confalonieri 11,
MB: All’Isola.
AB: Eh, all’Isola, che adesso è diventata una zona di pregio, no, perché è la zona della movida e di però ai tempi, miei tempi era una zona molto degradata ed era ritenuta una zona proprio popolarissima, piena di ladri di galline proprio, non di grande, di grande [laughs] levatura. Però io abitavo in una casa che aveva, noi abitavamo nel, al quarto piano, una casa naturalmente senza né ascensore, né niente né, addirittura tanti appartamenti non avevano neanche il servizio in, all’interno. Siccome era una casa di ringhiera, tanti, tutti quelli che abitavano gli appartamenti che erano nella ringhiera, nella parte della ringhiera, avevano il servizio comune per tutti i quattro appartamenti che c’erano nella, sul piano. Perciò case proprio popolarissime. Però la veniva chiamata la casa di sass, perché era una casa molto antica ed era fatta di sasso proprio e dicevano che avesse duecento anni di età questa casa ed era di fronte alla Brown-Boveri , che era una, sì, la Brown-Boveri era una azienda che fabbricava le, forse le armi, era una, insomma una, ed era anche di fronte alle, alle linee varesine. Le linee varesine erano quelle che portavano a Varese, quella zona lì, che adesso invece hanno, sono state trasformate nella, come si chiama, la stazione di Porta Garibaldi, eh, quelle erano le varesine. Perciò potevano venire bombardate ed erano bombardate, era una zona bombardata perché c’era Brown-Boveri, che era proprio di fronte a casa nostra, noi eravamo all’undici, la Brown-Boveri aveva un numero pare, ma proprio di fronte, e di fronte c’erano pure le linee varesine che erano invitanti per i bombardamenti. Quando è arrivata, quando è venuta la guerra, che è stato nel 1940, noi l’abbiamo saputo dalla radio, che avevamo una radio regalata dalla mia nonna, l’unico regalo di mia nonna che, insomma, per quel poco che poteva fare, no, quella nonna lì poteva fare di più ma insomma ci aveva fatto solo il regalo della radio, avevamo saputo che era stata, scoppiata la guerra nel 1940. Da un discorso di Mussolini che diceva: ’Italiani, al di là del mare, al di là dei monti’, l’Italia insomma adesso mi ricordo che faceva dei discorsi roboanti proprio, che però prendeva tanta gente di, dalla parte proprio della passione così, comunque. Mio padre non era, né un fascista né niente, non aveva, perché aveva fatto sì la guerra del ’14-18, però siccome non era fra gli Arditi, era un alpino di artiglieria di montagna, che un tempo invece degli Alpini c’erano, c’era l’artiglieria di montagna. E’ che il papà amava molto sulla, cosa aveva fatto, sul, eh non mi ricordo più, comunque parlava sempre di avere fatto la guerra nell’artiglieria di montagna. Amava gli asini, che erano i compagni, i compagni degli artiglieri perché gli ha, ha salvato tante vite eh l’asino, il mulo anzi, più che l’asino il mulo perché portava, aveva.
ZG: Ma.
AB: Un capo, non so. Comunque mio padre quando raccontava le sue imprese, però non l’aveva finita, perché si era ammalato, aveva avuto la polmonite e l’avevano messo nelle retrovie. Perciò non aveva visto la fine della guerra ed era diventato l’attendente del colonnello, di un colonnello che stava a Torino ed era il capo della, dell’accademia degli artiglieri mi pare perciò mio padre, ecco. Però veniva da un paese della Lomellina, che erano contadini. Niente, questo per quanto riguarda la mia famiglia.
ZG: Eh
AB: Mio padre faceva il muratore, però veniva da un paese di contadini. E la mia mamma veniva sempre da un paese di contadini che era la Lomellina ed era, faceva la sarta. Io avevo una sorella maggiore, che era mia sorella Marialuisa che era della. Marialuisa, Io dico sempre Marialuisa ma il vero nome è Marialuigia perché così è. Rinnovava la nonna, sa che un tempo si rinnovava, io invece avevo rinnovato la nonna da parte materna, mia sorella invece da parte paterna ed era la preferita da, da quelle nonne lì, da quella nonna lì, mentre io ero la preferita della nonna Mussiada, insomma, è logico. Comunque quando è scoppiata la guerra, io facevo le elementari. Mi ricordo quando era scoppiato perché c’era stato il discorso del, di Mussolini. Il fratello di mia mamma, invece, siccome aveva fatto la guerra negli Arditi, era del 1800 eh perciò erano, avevano fatto la guerra del, era fra gli Arditi, era diventato un fascista, era piuttosto fascista perché gli Arditi, che erano del, del gruppo del, insomma erano tutti fascisti quando erano tornati dalla guerra, ti ricordi eh, lo zio Berto, ehm. Però era una bravissima persona, eh, una persona retta, che si interessava delle colonie per mandare, le colonie i bambini, che a quel tempo, se non andavano a fare la villeggiatura nelle colonie, i bambini non vedevano il mare neanche dopo vent’anni. Io ero stata mandata a Pietra Ligure per esempio, tant’è vero che avevo fatto la prima comunione a Pietra Ligure quando ero lì nella colonia, mandata da mio zio, che non avevo che da ringraziare perché ero una, avevo visto il mare per la prima volta [laughs] nel ’41 forse, ’41 o ’42, non so, perciò ero, avevo visto il mare per la prima volta, se no non conoscevo. Conoscevo la campagna della Lomellina quando andavo a trovare la mia nonna contadina e se no, non conoscevo altro. Comunque, vabbe’. Quando è scoppiata la guerra, io per i primi anni sono stata a Milano e ho finito la scuola, le elementari qui perciò devo averlo finito nel ’42, perché avevo dieci anni. Però mia mamma aveva cercato di mandarmi a, sfollata presso mia zia che abitava a Pallanza sul Lago Maggiore. E lì, purtroppo ecco lì non mi piaceva tanto perché mi trovavo bene con la mia zia, che era la mia zia preferita però tutte le sere, quasi tutte le notti si sentivano gli aerei che passavano sopra il Lago Maggiore. Venivano dalla Francia probabilmente, o dalla Svizzera, non lo so, e si sentivano i rumori e noi dicevamo tutti, sia mia zia sia le mie compagne di scuola che sentivo, che parlavo con le amichette, dicevo: ’Questi sono gli aerei che vanno a bombardare Milano’. Perché passavano sul Lago Maggiore, passavano Luino e venivano a Milano e questo mi faceva un bel dispiacere perchè io sapevo che a casa c’erano la mia mamma, il mio papà e mio fratello. Mia sorella no perché nel ’43 era andata, sapevo che era sfollata sul Lago di Como, perché era andata in banca e la banca aveva sfollato tutti i suoi dipendenti sul Lago Maggiore, eh sul Lago di Como. Perciò per lei ero tranquilla. Sapevo, sentivano dei bombardamenti. Nel ’43 è stato l’anno proprio brutto per i bombardamenti perché si sentiva parlare dei bombardamenti su Milano, massicci, proprio i più brutti, infatti c’erano stati tanti morti. Siccome noi abitavamo in una casa di fronte a un’azienda che faceva, che faceva proiettili, non so, era la Brown-Boveri , era una ditta che faceva forniture per la guerra, era pericolosa. E in più di fronte anche alle varesine, alle linee varesine era una casa, tant’è vero che avevano buttato delle bombe e avevano bruciato tutte le gelosie. Una volta le gelosie rientravano dentro nella, non so se voi, no, voi siete giovani non lo sapete, ma una volta rientravano nel muro e si chiamavano le gelosie. Erano di legno. Naturalmente hanno buttando tante bombe incendiarie hanno bruciato tutte le gelosie della nostra casa e lì mio padre che era il capofabbricato era, ha dovuto intervenire, fare venire non so i pompieri, quello che era, però ha annerito tutto il davanti della casa e abbiamo avuto delle, non era successo nient’altro però tanti rimanevano senza casa ad un certo momento. Noi abbiamo avuto solo quell’inconveniente lì delle gelosie, però, che erano bruciate e non so, adesso non mi ricordo più come. Ad un certo momento però io nel ’43, alla fine del ’43 dovevo fare l’esame di ammissione per la scuola media perché volevo fare la scuola media, che dopo forse avrei fatto magari le magistrali come mia sorella però i miei non potevano farmi studiare. Comunque c’era la mia sorella che lavorava, lavorava in banca, insomma avevamo qualche cosa di più da poter contare. E ho fatto la scuola, l’esame di ammissione alla scuola media lì a Pallanza e poi sarei tornata per fare la scuola media a Milano e sono ritornata nel ’43, ’44. Nel ’44 avevo quanti, dodici anni, avrei fatto la seconda media, ma ho fatto anche la prima media a Milano. E siccome non c’erano scuole, tutte le scuole medie erano un po’, sono andata a finire nella scuola che c’è in Via Giusti che è una scuola per capomastri. Infatti la mia scuola mi ricordo che aveva tutti i disegni, tutte le formine di architravi, cose del genere, però era diventata una scuola media perchè scuole per capomastri non venivano fatti in tempo di guerra, erano tutti ragazzotti che erano stati richiamati, avevano magari sedici, diciasette anni, erano richiamati. E allora andavo e tutti i giorni da, dall’Isola mi portavano nella zona dei cinesi, la Via,
MB: Paolo Sarpi
AB: Via Giusti, Via Paolo Sarpi, perchè la mia scuola era nella via che proseguiva la Via Giusti, la Via Giusti. Andavo però sempre accompagnata da un mio compagno di, un vicino che studiava nelle scuole che aveva un anno più di me e perciò non era richiamato perché, eh. E veniva, mi accompagnava, facevo tutta la strada insieme, dovevo passare dalla Via Guercino dove c’erano, dove c’era il comando dei, e dalla scuola Tenca, la scuola Tenca che adesso è la scuola magistrale che aveva frequentato mia sorella, che era la sede della Muti. La Muti era un’associazione di fascistotti, ragazzotti fascisti, che mettevano una paura solo con la loro divisa, non so lei no lei che non se ne ricorda ma io quando passavo davanti alla scuola Tenca, che era una scuola che mi piaceva perché era la scuola di mia sorella, mi faceva paura perché si vedevano questi ragazzotti che avevano sui diciotto, vent’anni, tutti vestiti di nero, con i baschi con il pennacchio rosso, era una cosa, con gli scarponi che facevano un rumore solo a sentir scandire queste, queste passi, erano una cosa che metteva, e io dovevo passare anche dalla Via Guercino dove c’era la sede dei tedeschi. Era terribile, la Via Guercino era sempre piena di questi tedescotti che mettevano paura perché marciavano in una maniera diversa da, anche dai nostri, che so io, dai nostri alpini, dai nostri bersaglieri che erano simpatici, così. Loro erano, facevano paura proprio, ecco. E io tutti i giorni dovevo fare e ogni tanto si sentiva suonare l’allarme perché di giorno, bombardavano anche di giorno, soprattutto di sera ma di giorno bombardavano e allora si sentiva. Noi eravamo a scuola e allora dovevamo scendere nelle cantine che io ero anche contenta eh di questa facenda perché mi impediva di essere interrogata, perché mi piaceva. Fra l’altro la mia professoressa di latino e di italiano e di latino così, era la professoressa Lighini che era la sorella del dottor Lighini, che, dell’ingegner Lighini che era il luogotenente del generale Cadorna e perciò lei non diceva mai, non parlava mai dei ribelli come erano chiamati i partigiani, erano chiamati ribelli no, non erano chiamati partigiani. I partigiani sono venuti dopo, quando dopo la fine della guerra che allora erano partigiani. Lei diceva sempre: ’ quei ragazzi’, i ragazzi che sono contro i fascisti logicamente, però sono partigiani, parteggiano per una certa parte. L’abbiamo saputo dopo che era la sorella di un, del luogotenente di, del generale Cadorna e infatti dopo era diventata la preside della Carlo Tenca perché era diventata, era la sorella di un cotanto personaggio, eh, perciò. E allora, questo per quanto riguarda i miei ricordi di. Invece di notte suonava sempre l’allarme, spesso l’allarme ma mia mamma non aveva paura e io pure non avevo paura, poi ero un po’ smemorata, non sentivo neanche l’allarme, non lo sentivo. Mia mamma se non mi svegliava io dormivo beatamente poi quando aveva l’allarme, il cessato allarme, mi risvegliavo ma andavo avanti a dormire. Invece mio padre scappava via come una lepre perchè era un pauroso, prendeva su la valigia dove c’erano tutti i tesori della famiglia e andava in cantina con mio fratello, mia sorella non c’era perché era sfollata e noi andavamo, andavamo avanti così. Alla fine della guerra quando c’è stata il 25 aprile, io mi ricordo che in Via Borseri che è una via dell’Isola era passato un convoglio di tedeschi con davanti l’ufficiale con, che imbraccava la rivoltella e faceva così con la mano per tener lontano perché tutta la gente lì che guardava i tedeschi che se ne andavano finalmente, perché mettevano paura, erano vestiti e si atteggiavano in una maniera che mettevano paura solo a vederli, mettevano paura. I fascisti vestiti, quelli della, delle brigate nere e i tedeschi mettevano proprio paura. Erano arrivati i partigiani. Ad un certo momento i partigiani però, insomma ne hanno fatte anche loro perché uccidevano i fascisti o quelli che ritenevano tali. Ci sono state tante vendette anche, insomma, fatte, fatte così ad arte che. Noi avevamo il nostro Don Eugenio Bussa che era il capo della Chiesa del Sacro Volto, che aveva salvato tanti ebrei, ma vicino al loro oratorio, c’era un muro dove venivano uccisi i partigiani che venivano presi o renitenti alla leva, perché c’erano tanti renitenti alla leva. Anche nella nostra casa c’erano due o tre amici di mia sorella che erano del ’24, ’25, che erano proprio giusto giusto per essere renitenti alla leva e loro cercavano di non andare, di non essere, perché se no andavano in Germania e non ritornavano più. E la guerra non la volevano fare, giustamente, perché poi, dopo il ’43 quando c’era stata l’armistizio, tanti erano scappati, magari erano anche militari ma erano scappati come un mio zio, quello zio lì del Lago Maggiore che era un carabiniere che era in Iugoslavia neh, si era levato le mostrine di carabiniere perché se no lo ammazzavano e si era presentato come un povero profugo, era riuscito però era stato preso dai tedeschi e mandato in Germania. Però è riuscito a sopravvivere perché mangiava, però quando ritornava, quando è ritornato ci ha raccontato che mangiava la pelle delle patate che buttavano via i tedeschi. Mio zio era molto furbo, eh furbetto anche lui ma, però insomma, che lavorava in banca anche lui, però all’istituto, dov’era, al, ehm, coso di Novara, ne. E lì a Pallanza c’era la, ma era furbo furbo mio zio e perché per riuscire a e quando è ritornato però, è ritornato nel ’46 o ’47 dopo perché, sa, prima che ritornassero indietro, ma insomma, comunque, è ritornato. Io poi mi ricordo altre cose. Che ogni tanto, con la mia mamma, andavamo al paese di mia nonna, che ci dava magari qualche gallina magari che riuscivo perché dovevano portare tutto all’ammasso ai tedeschi e invece lei riusciva a rubacchiare qualche chilo di farina, qualche uovo, qualche gallina, così andavamo lì, prendavamo il treno, andavamo lì a Sartirana, che mia mamma era di Sartirana, e riuscivamo a portare a casa qualche sacchetto di farina, qualche uova, così, che mia mamma sulla stufa faceva, faceva da mangiare. Faceva il pane bianco, che il pane bianco era un dolce addirittura, oppure metteva l’uovo, faceva qualche cosa di, insomma, una gallina che riusciva. Perché la tessera annonaria è continuata anche dopo la fine della guerra eh, perché è continuata mi pare fino al ’47, non, fino al ’47, perciò si è. Non è che si stesse tanto bene anche finita la guerra, no. Mio zio, mio zio, quello lì, il fratello di mia mamma che era un, ritenuto un fascista perché, ma siccome non aveva fatto male a nessuno, anzi, faceva solo piaceri appunto, faceva andare i bambini alle colonie, accompagnava alle colonie così, non ha avuto niente, è scappato dalla mia zia, quella lì di, che era la sua sorella insomma praticamente, lì sul Lago Maggiore, ma è stato via due o tre giorni e poi è ritornato che nessuno gli ha fatto niente, non, perché era una bravissima persona mio zio Berto. Niente, basta, questo per quanto riguarda il. Poi nel ’47 io trovato il lavoro presso un ragioniere, però avevo fatto giusto le tre medie e basta, non avevo né diploma né niente, avevo appunto fatto solo la terza media. E però mi piaceva di più ragioneria che fare le magistrali. Prendevo sempre da mia sorella che gli ricopiavo gli appunti, lei li faceva magari in stenografia, io invece li facevo in chiaro e allora lei mi dava magari una lira o dieci lire forse perché dopo mi pagava di più. E io guadagnavo la mancetta ma dopo prendevo anch’io lo stipendio, poco, perché i ragionieri non pagavano per niente ma insomma piuttosto di niente e poi imparavo. Dopo nel ’47, questo sono andato nel ’47 neh dal ragioniere, ecco. Nel ’47 mi sono iscritta alle scuole civiche, che erano le scuole civiche di Milano che facevano ragioneria al Parini. Al Parini facevano le serali, era la scuola civica di Milano che facevano ragioneria. E poi mi sono nel ’54, no, dopo ho cambiato, però sono andata in una scuola privata alla, al Volta neh, e poi ho fatto gli esami e mi sono diplomata nel ’54 ecco. E nel ’55 invece ho trovato posto a Selezione del Reader’s Digest, era un giornale, era il giornale di, Reader’s Digest era americano, era uno dei giornali più in voga, mensile, è un mensile. Ma faceva, vendeva anche tante e dischi e giradischi e libri e tutto, oltre la rivista, la rivista era, ecco. E sono stata lì 32 anni. 32 anni più 8 del ragioniere ho fatto 40 anni di iscrizione all’INPS, ecco. E nel ’50, nel ’87 invece sono andata in pensione, ecco, con quarant’anni di anzianità. E adesso sono qui, malata, malandata, sì, no, e perché purtroppo con quello che ho avuto non sono, non sto tanto bene, ma.
ZG: Sì. Io volevo fare.
AB: Dica.
ZG: Mi sono segnato un sacco di domande.
AB: Sì.
ZG: Se vuole, iniziamo. Allora. La prima era una curiosità mia. La sua era una famiglia contadina, giusto?
AB: Sì. La mia mamma viene da una famiglia contadina. Anche mio padre veniva da una famiglia contadina, però faceva il muratore. Dalla Lomellina venivano.
ZG: Però una sua nonna ha potuto regalarvi una radio, ha detto prima.
AB: Sì perché mia nonna, la nonna, la mamma di mio papà viveva con la figlia, la quale si era sposata molto bene e aveva, vero, aveva un albergo. Lei, cioè il marito aveva un albergo. Mia nonna era andata a aiutare, era furba, tremenda era mia nonna, era una donna molto in gamba ma un po’ tremenda. Era riuscita, era l’unico regalo che ci aveva fatto, eh, perchè lei naturalmente viveva con la figlia, il figlio lo teneva meno da conto ecco. E l’unica cosa, ma siccome mia sorella si chiamava come lei, quel regalo lì ce l’ha fatto, ecco. E c’aveva regalato la radio, che a quel tempo la radio, avere la radio era una cosa, una cosa che non si poteva, per noi era un lusso, ecco, era un lusso.
ZG: E senta invece, oltre a suo zio, avevate altri parenti che, insomma...
AB: Erano fascisti?
ZG: Sì.
AB: No, altri parenti no, c’era solo mio zio, che era il fratello della mia mamma, l’unico fratello della mia mamma. Perché loro erano in cinque in famiglia, un fratello e quattro sorelle erano. No, solo mio zio, quel mio zio lì.
ZG: E lui come mai non è tornato in guerra?
AB: Chi, mio zio?
ZG: Sì.
AB: Eh mio zio perché aveva fatto la guerra del ’15-’18, era più giovane di mio papà, non era stato richiamato, ma non so per quale ragione. Lavorava dove, lavorava in un’azienda farmaceutica perché aveva un po’ studiato, Perché, adesso le spiego. Sartirana era sotto la, c’era un duca che era il padrone del paese, ducato di Sartirana era ed era imparentato con i, gli Aosta. Tant’è vero che il ragazzino, quando era stato, nel ’42 o ’43 che era, era lì nel castello di Sartirana. Ma mio zio, ma questo duca di Sartirana era, aveva due figlie. Una non si era sposata perché era mezza inscemita. Invece una aveva sposato un principe di Hannover e quando il marito era morto lei, per non perdere il titolo di principessa, non si era più sposata. Però aveva fatto tante, era padrona, praticamente era padrona di tutto il paese, di tutti i terreni, così. Aveva fatto molto per la, per la gente del paese. Per le donne, aveva, ad Alessandria aveva messo su la scuola per sarte e mia mamma l’aveva potuta frequentare, tant’è vero che mia mamma faceva bene, era una brava sarta perché aveva studiato proprio nella scuola della principessa. E invece mio zio l’aveva, si vede forse perché era tornato lì dal, eh no, tu non lo sai perché tu non ti sei mai interessata, ma io le sapevo queste cose perché mia mamma le raccontava, raccontava. La principessa poi aveva preso mia mamma per fare i vestiti di, prima che lei si sposasse, per fare i vestiti, i vestiti di casa delle domestiche insomma e anche per lei, fare i vestiti di casa, così. E li voleva molto bene. Poi siccome si aggirava per i boschi una volta si era persa lì dei boschi de, perché mia mamma abitava in una cascina ma sperduta, vicino alla, Bisognosa si chiamava, si figuri che cascina poteva essere. Comunque era vicino al Po mort perché lì passa, passavano i bracci del Po ma che chiamavano il Po mort perché sono bracci un po’ di, da poco ecco, e che tagliava il Monferrato alla Lomellina. Perché qui c’è la Lomellina dalla parte della, nella parte della Lombardia e invece nella parte del Po ma piemontese c’è il Monferrato e mia mamma veniva dal Monferrato, i suoi del, contadini ma del Monferrato che insomma si sono trasferiti lì nella Lomellina. E una volta si era sperduta la principessa, mia mamma questa qui lo raccontava sempre, e mio nonno l’aveva tirata fuori dai pasticci, come la signora con mia sorella. E allora è diventato e poi l’aveva portata a casa e le aveva presentato la famiglia, era praticamente un suo dipendente perché lavorava le terre della principessa, del duca, del duca di Sartirana e gliele aveva presentate e siccome c’era mia, l’unica che non faceva la contadina era la mia mamma perché faceva la sarta ma se no le sue tre sorelle facevano tutte le contadine. E gliel’aveva, allora lei ogni tanto quando, e poi gli aveva dato da mangiare o da bere, non so, il latte, così, e si era affezionata, la principessa si era affezionata sia alla mia mamma che la, che. Poi aveva dei domestici che erano parenti della mia mamma e perciò era particolarmente, insomma, la conosceva bene. E perciò non. Invece per le donne aveva messo sù questo atelier dove imparavano a fare le sarte e invece per gli uomini li aveva mandati, mio zio veniva dalla guerra ed era un dipendente di, che sarebbe finito di fare il contadino, le aveva fatto studiare, aveva fatto qualche scuola tant’è vero che poi aveva trovato da impiegarsi in questo, in questa la Paganini Villani, che era una ditta farmaceutica. E allora non era andato a militare perché... Poi si era sposato.
ZG: Fantastico. Ehm, senta invece, della vita in Isola, quando eravate in Isola....
AB: Ah, si stava bene, guardi. Io venivo a casa di sera, alle undici di sera, con un nebbione che non, perché venivo a casa dalle, dalla scuola serale. Venivo a casa magari con dei miei compagni che abitavano. Ma io entravo all’Isola che era piena di nebbia da non finire, io mi sentivo sicura, guardi, non avevo nessunissima paura. L’isola era un, una zona bella. La Via Confalonieri, la Via Volturno, la Via Borsieri. Eh, e poi, che si doveva fare la Via Borsieri, Piazzale Tito Minniti, che cos’è, ah cantavi , sì è vero, io salivo dalle, siccome avevo paura invece fare le scale perché ero al quarto piano, allora cantavo, e la gente, però erano le undici, era. Mia mamma mi sentiva, veniva fuori che mi preparava da mangiare perché io mangiavo alle undici di sera, quando ritornavo da scuola. E cominciavo a cantare e allora mia mamma veniva fuori, mi veniva ‘Tina, Tina, Tina’ e io arrivavo a casa e sapevo di essere aspettata, insomma.
ZG: Ma lei faceva le serali quando faceva le medie?
AB: No, facevo le serali quando ero andata dal ragioniere. Quando nel, dopo il ’47. Perchè io le medie le ho finite nel ’45. In aprile del ’45 io ho finito, il 25 aprile io facevo la terza media. Nel ’45 avevo tredici anni, no.
ZG: Eh, senta.
AB: Tant’è vero che non le ho finite, non le ho finite ma mi avevano promosso lo stesso perché.
ZG: E senta, sempre lì in Isola, prima sua sorella faceva riferimento però al fatto che, anche lei le diceva prima che era un quartiere molto popolare, che c’era un po’ di delinquenza.
AB: Oh, sì, sì, era ritenuto un, era ritenuto ed era proprio popolare, popolare, popolare. Case vecchie, erano case vecchie, tutte, Via Borsieri, Via Confalonieri, Via
MB: Via Serio
AB: Viale, no Via Serio era già più avanti, era già più verso la, la fontana. Piazzale Tito Minniti, ecco lì, proprio là, Piazzale Tito Minniti. Quando noi andavamo a fare il mese di maggio nel ’45 si andava in chiesa a fare il mese di maggio, sa, che mese di maggio è mese della Madonna. E mi ricordo che quando siamo passati di lì era il 25 aprile, era appena passato e maggio siamo passati di lì. Io mi ricordo che c’era uno appeso perché era stato ucciso, era stato strangolato, non so, che era il fratello della pollivendola che abitava nella casa ed era stato ucciso dai e alcuni invece li avevano uccisi nel, nel muro dell’oratorio di, del Don Eugenio, che è il Sacro Volto, questa. Lì in Via Volturno c’è la chiesa del Sacro Volto che era la chiesa del Don, Don Bussa, che però dopo è stato fatto uno dei giusti del... Ti ricordi quando il Peppino è andato che l’hanno festeggiato e mio fratello è andato in Israele che avevano, che l’avevano festeggiato, l’avevano. Perciò una personalità, il Don Eugenio.
ZG: Ehm, senta, volevo. Arrivando al periodo della guerra,
AB: Sì.
ZG: Lei ci ha detto prima che ha scoperto tramite la radio che era scoppiata la guerra.
AB: Sì, sì.
ZG: In famiglia se ne era parlato?
AB: Ma, non mi pare. Forse se ne parlava che doveva scoppiare la guerra perché c’era, ma non mi ricordo, non mi ricordo, no.
ZG: E la sera del discorso alla radio di Mussolini, eravate tutti insieme in famiglia?
AB: Eh probabile, probabile, sì, senz’altro.
ZG: Ah ok. Quindi non si ricorda se suo padre o sua madre avevano fatto dei commenti, sul discorso?
AB: No, ma loro non s’interessavano nè di politica nè niente. E non erano neanche nè fascisti nè niente perché.
MB: [unclear]
AB: Eh, sì, c’era mio padre che solo che diceva: ’mi raccomando, scrivete Duce bene, eh, scrivetelo bene’ perché a quel tempo il fascista era ritenuto e anche con mio zio:’ mi raccomando eh, zio Berto’, che era, noi sapevamo che era fascista perché quando era ritornato e poi quando andava a accompagnare i bambini, mia zia, che era la moglie, andava a accompagnare con la moglie del federale, andava a accompagnare i bambini alle colonie, passeggiava avanti e indietro sulle panchine della stazione centrale, a noi sembrava che fosse la moglie del federale invece era la moglie di un povero diavolo, ma insomma. Poi noi eravamo vestiti da piccoli italiani, ti ricordi? Che avevamo le calze nere delle mamme, che a quel tempo portavano le calze nere. Li facevano sulla un bottone e si faceva la,
MB: Ah sì.
AB: Il cappello, si metteva su in testa la calza della mamma con il fondo, mettevano il bottone veniva il cappellino della piccola italiana. Mia mamma m’aveva fatto la divisa eh! Perché a quel tempo si usava così, eh. D’altra parte ancora tanta grazia che ogni tanto davano dei pacchi, ti ricordi, che la
MB: Noi, non ne avevamo mai usufruito.
AB: No, dai, ma non dir pacchi dai
MB: Io mi ricordo quando è andata a dare la.
AB: Io mi ricordo quando andavo a prendere
MB: Io mi ricordo quando è andata a prendere la vera, io mi ricordo quando è andata a prendere la vera.
AB: Ah sì, perché forse c’è stato un periodo, forse nel ’38-’39, chiedevano,
MB: Dalle tombole di San Marco [?]
AB: Sì, chiedevano. Il Duce ha chiesto la
MB: L’oro.
AB: L’oro alla patria e allora tutte le donne, anche per farsi vedere, per, davano la vera, la vera, gli ori. Ce n’erano pochi, c’era poco, l’unico oro che avevano erano delle verone perché usavano. Però mia mamma l’aveva portata e dopo se l’era fatta rifare.
[ ZG: laughs]
MB: Perché poverina.
MB: Non so se aveva portato la, quella di mio papà o aveva portato la sua ma so, mi ricordo che erano una, erano vere alte, più alte di quelle che si usano adesso.
ZG: Quindi ha fatto fare rifare la fede?
MB: E aveva fatto rifare la fede.
ZG: E in che materiale era?
MB: Eh materiale d’oro. Aveva…
ZG: Dopo averla donata?
MB: Eh sì, perché dovevano far vedere perché lì venivano scritti, eh. Buffadossi, eh, ha lasciato la vera.
AB: Ha fatto la strada quella sera lì.
ZG: Senta, invece, suo padre era capofabbricato.
AB: Sì.
ZB: Il suo lavoro che cos’era esattamente?
AB: Eh doveva curare che, quando suonava l’allarme, venisse diretto bene il flusso alla cantina perché le cantine erano cantinacce, non erano mica le cantine che ci sono adesso, che sono belle pulite. C’erano, io mi ricordo che passavano i topi, eh, perché erano case vecchie, erano umide così. E doveva guardare che ci fosse le panchine perché mettevano le panchine, la gente andava lì, si sedeva e stava lì ad aspettare, contarsela sù che...
ZG: Quindi lui faceva questo lavoro di insomma far affluire le persone in cantina.
AB: Sì.
ZG: La cantina spettava soltanto al vostro palazzo o c’erano anche altri palazzi che dovevano [unclear]?
AB: No, ogni palazzo aveva la sua cantina.
ZG: E come mai vostro padre non vi svegliava, quando suonava l’allarme?
AB: Eh perché era compito della mia mamma ma mia mamma, lui scappava via [laughs] e mia mamma stava lì. Lei non c’era, c’ero solo io e io non avevo paura come non aveva paura la mia mamma. Mio fratello seguiva mio padre e via, perché lavorava anche lui. Aveva cinque anni più di me, perciò nel ’43 così.
MB: Lavorava alla Grazioli.
AB: Lavorava alla Grazioli.
ZG: Ma, e non avevate paura neanche dopo che si era incendiato il tetto della casa?
AB: No, non si era incendiato il tetto, si erano incendiato le gelosie.
ZG: Ah, le gelosie, giusto. E neanche dopo quell’occasione?
AB: Io non, non avevo paura, tant’è vero che pochissime volte sono andata giù in cantina. Non mi piaceva perché bisognava andare su e giù dalle scale, mamma mia, e dormivo. No, non mi piaceva.
ZG: E invece quando eravate a scuola è capitato che suonasse l’allarme?
AB: Ah sì, di giorno e lì era di giorno, lì invece mi piaceva perché ero con i miei compagni. Stavamo lì e magari dovevamo essere interrogate perciò c’era andata bene. La professoressa Lighini era un po’ severotta, eh.
ZG: E alle elementari come passavate il tempo nel rifugio?
AB: E niente, chiacchierando, chiacchierando.
ZG: Le maestre non vi, non c’erano compagni spaventati, qualcuno che aveva paura?
AB: Ma era solo le medie, perché io nelle elementari no eh. Nelle elementari non mi è mai successo. Perché nelle elementari, le avevo già finite perchè nel, io sono andata a scuola nelle elementari fino al ’42 perché, ma nel ’42 non c’erano i bombardamenti, ecco, sono incominciati nel ’43 i bombardamenti feroci che erano, che erano, e dopo ’43, dopo che c’era stato l’armistizio, perché prima no. C’erano i tedeschi che erano nostri alleati e noi effettivamente, quando abbiamo fatto l’armistizio li abbiamo lasciati, li abbiamo traditi in un certo senso e adesso.
ZG: Senta invece, tornando invece alle cantine di, a casa vostra. Com’è che le persone scendevano in queste cantine, c’era tipo una gerarchia, scendevano prima alcune persone poi delle altre?
AB: No, no no, venivano giù. Il primo piano era il primo a sedersi e poi c’erano gli altri piani e noi eravamo al quarto piano, eravamo gli ultimi a scendere.
ZG: Ok. Ehm, invece un’altra domanda. Lei era andata sul Lago Maggiore?
AB: Sì, da mia zia, da questa mia zia che era la moglie di un carabinieri che era stato richiamato. Lui era più giovane di mia mamma perché aveva forse un dieci anni, mia zia aveva dieci anni meno, lui era del ’92, lei era del ’02 e lui, eh, sarà stato del ‘900. Perciò nel ’40 quando era stato richiamato aveva quarant’anni.
ZG: Ehm, lei era andata sul Lago Maggiore per sfuggire ai bombardamenti.
AB: Eh sì perché.
ZG: E come mai nel ’43 ha deciso di tornare?
AB: Eh perché mia mamma a un certo momento ha detto: ’ritorna, se moriamo, moriamo tutti insieme’, ecco.
ZG: Ehm, senta invece mi. Volevo farle una serie di domande sempre su, sempre sul quartiere Isola durante proprio il periodo dei bombardamenti. Avevate paura di rapine in casa o?
AB: No, rapine no, perché cosa vuole, si chiudeva la porta. A quel tempo non si chiudeva neanche la porta perché io a dir la verità, avevamo la porta e l’antiporte, erano case così. Ma spesso e volentieri noi andavamo a dormire senza, anche dopo appena finita la guerra non chiudavamo neanche la porta. Non sempre si chiudeva la porta.
MB: Eh dai.
AB: Sa, rapine, cosa vuole che rapinassero in casa nostra? Se portavano via noi [laughs], dovevano darci da mangiare, no no per carità. Non c’era niente da rubare. Giusto quando andavamo al paese della mia nonna, che portavamo a casa quel sacchetto di, e dopo per passare il Ticino perché noi dalla Lomellina bisogna passare il Ticino a Vigevano bisogna passare il Ticino e il treno si fermava prima del Ticino, noi lo facevamo a piedi il pezzo del Ticino perché se no c’era il pericolo che bombardassero e poi c’era un altro treno che dal Ticino, dal ponte del Ticino a Milano via San Cristoforo, e noi poi prendavamo l’8 perché qui girava l’8 in Piazzale Tirana. A quel tempo l’8 era il tram principe per arrivare alla, alla Isola. C’era il 4 e l’8, che girava l’Isola. Noi prendavamo lì da San Cristoforo o da Porta Genova, ma noi scendavamo a San Cristoforo con il nostro pacchettino e il chilo di farina, e due o tre uova, la gallina, così e andavamo a casa, io e la mamma.
ZG: E senta.
AB: Perché tu non sei mai andata a Sartirana quando, invece io andavo con la mia mamma.
ZG: Però suo padre durante i bombardamenti la valigia con i gioielli di famiglia [unclear] [laughs]
AB: Sì, i gioielli [laughs], cosa vuole,
ZG: Quelli lì li portava via però.
AB: Ah sì, li portava via. C’era, io mi ricordo che c’era un taglio di vestito, poi forse c’erano delle lenzuola c’era un, era un valigione tutto grande, sa di quelli di cartone e pressato. Quello, c’era un taglio di vestiti, c’era, c’erano le lenzuola e che cosa d’altro, niente, nient’alto, non c’era nient’altro di, cosa vuole che portasse. E da mangiare, da mangiare sì, portava giù qualche cosa ma, un panino ma, ma non certamente pane e salame che non si trovava. Era tutto tesserato, si figuri.
ZG: Ehm, e gli spostamenti invece erano, per andare al paese di sua nonna erano facili o?
AB: No no, non tanto facili, perché c’era sempre il pericolo che bombardassero il, perché le vie ferrate erano le più, le più appetibili per le bombe, eh capisce? Magari erano spostamenti di forze armate addirittura, non era, non guardavano se. Perché erano odiati poi gli americani perché erano gli americani dicevano, che i russi non bombardavano perché erano troppo lontano. Invece gli americani erano quelli che bombardavano e venivano odiati perché erano loro che bombardavano.
ZG: Ma ehm, della possibilità che le ferrovie potessero venire bombardate lei lo sapeva già allora. Cioè chi glielo diceva?
AB: Eh me lo, eh si sapeva, cosa vuole, si è, si diventa svegli anche, quand’anche, anche se siamo bambini ma.
ZG: Senta invece volevo farle le ultime domande. Tornando al quartiere Isola. Quando mi diceva che aveva paura di attraversare la via in cui c’erano prima i fascisti e poi i tedeschi.
AB: Eh sì. Via Guercino guardi, e la Via Guercino c’era il comando tedesco e prima nella via, quella via lì che poi è attraversata da Via Guercino, c’era la Carlo Tenca ed era la sede delle Brigate Nere. Facevano, mettevano paura proprio, vedeva, sentiva questo passo cadenzato erano magari tre o quattro insieme [makes a thumping noise], le cose chiodate credo che avessero i, mettevano paura.
ZG: Ma avevano anche un atteggiamento nei suoi confronti oppure giravano delle voci su qualcosa?
AB: No, dicevano che erano cattivi e andavano a prendere i renitenti, renitenti alla leva venivano. Ogni tanto passavano le ronde, vero, ti ricordi? No, tu non te lo ricordi, io mi ricordo che nella nostra casa c’era un ragazzo, un ragazzo che era un poco più vecchio del e proprio lui che era il fidanzato di una sua amica che aveva la sua età, lui aveva forse due o tre anni più di lei e quando è stato chiamato che aveva giusto vent’anni è stato chiamato perché mandavano a chiamare no, con un foglio così e lui. I suoi hanno fatto così ma hanno fatto male perché poi vivevano male. Hanno chiuso una camera, l’hanno chiusa e come se non esistesse. Avevano tre camere e invece hanno fatto come se fossero due camere. E in quello lì c’era il ragazzo però ogni tanto lui si, guardava fuori dalla finestra e la gente della casa, guardando fuori, lo vedeva che veniva fuori. Poi lui era sparito, ‘sto ragazzo era sparito, perché era come noi, erano tre figli, lui in quella famiglia lì, era tre, di tre figli maschi. Invece noi, una figlia femmina e aveva 25, a quel tempo era del ’25, il primo, il Camillo avrà avuto, sarà stato del ’22 o del ’23, poi c’era il Franco che aveva l’età di mio fratello e poi c’era l’Antonio che era quello che mi accompagnava a scuola quando andavo a fare le medie, che aveva, era forse, io sono del ’32, lui forse era del ’31 o del ’30. E mi ricordo che mi, mi accompagnava lì in via e mia mamma mi lasciava andare perché se no cosa faceva. Io non potevo andare a scuola, lei non poteva mica venirmi a accompagnare che doveva lavorare [unclear] non faceva tutte queste e allora andavo. Erano proprio come una scalletta così e quando è sparito, che non si è visto più il Camillo, eh, dov’è andato a finire, poi abbiamo capito perché la sua casa, il suo appartamento era di tre camere e ad un certo momento si è trovato solo due camere. Perché era lì. Loro lì si vede che gli passavano da mangiare e via.
ZG: Ma ehm, lo hanno scoperto le autorità?
AB: No, non l’hanno scoperto.
ZG: Qaunto tempo ha passato così?
AB: Eh, avrà passato due anni. Eh sì. Ha vissuto male.
ZG: E poi è riapparso, finita la guerra.
AB: Poi è riapparso. Poi era fidanzato con, con la
MB: Con la Bruna.
AB: Con la Bruna.
ZG: Ehm
AB: Che poi non ha sposato però.
ZG: Senta invece, l’altra storia di quartiere, mi può parlarmi di quella di Don Eugenio?
AB: E di Don Eugenio era ritenuto una brava, una bravissima persona, infatti dopo, finita la guerra, è stato l’unico che ha messo su sulla. L’oratorio, nell’oratorio dove prendeva solo i ragazzi, i maschi, non era un oratorio misto. Però lui ha fatto, faceva i film al giovedì e alla domenica mi pare, i film che noi, il cinema non si andava al cinema, invece da lui si vedevano dei bei film, magari.
MB: La sera.
AB: Alla sera.
MB: L’Amante indiana.
AB: L’Amante indiana. Una volta abbiamo visto, sì, era bello. I film che magari non erano recentissimi però per noi erano recente perché non vedevamo mai niente. Cinema, dov’è che, c’era il Vox, c’era il Farini come qui nel, il Vox che era in Via Farini. E il Farini che è in Via Farini. E lì erano due cinema che c’erano in tutta la, in tutta l’Isola. Perché gli altri, non c’erano altri e noi si andava lì a. Ah, poi faceva il teatro e le parti da donna le faceva fare dagli uomini, neh. Eh perché non si usava fare, le ragazze, fate lavorare le ragazze. Però erano belle perché poi a un, ah, ecco dell’Alfredo e del Luciano. Nella casa di Don Eugenio poi era stata messa una famiglia di gente che veniva forse da Rovigo così, neh. Comunque insomma era stata messa che i Bussa erano andati a stare con il Don Eugenio a fare la mamma e la sorella, gli facevano da perpetua diciamo ed erano state, stavano lì in canonica con il e in questa casa è stato il Luciano, c’era l’Alfredo che aveva, era un pochettino più vecchio di te e il Luciano che era un pochettino più vecchio di me. Siccome era un ragazzotto che un po’ avventuroso, il Luciano l’ultimo figlio che ehm, non so, si era messo nei pasticci, era stato messo in prigione a San Vittore. Un ragazzo che poco più vecchio di me, avrà avuto, nel ’44 così avrà avuto, io quanti avevo, avevo dodici anni, lui avrà avuto un quindici anni eh. Era stato messo e allora lì. Sua mamma, siccome noi avevamo la legna, facevamo andare la stufa e avevamo la legna perché mio padre portava a casa dei rimasugli di legna e la sua mamma veniva sempre su da noi che così si scaldava e nello stesso tempo chiacchierava lì con la mia mamma. Mia mamma lavorava a macchina e lei, lei chiacchierava. Era grossa [emphasises], era grossissima. Sì, la mamma del, eh dai, dell’Alfredo, no, no, era, sarà stato un centocinquanta chili. E non avevamo né poltrone né sedie per farla sedere allora si sedeva in una cassa dove c’era dentro la legna, però un giorno si è seduta, l’ha sfondata [laughs], ed è caduta dentro la cassa. La cassa era una cassa di legno ma grande eh, grande così. Il coperchio si è rovesciato e lei è caduta dentro. È che da rompersi l’osso del collo, altro che fare il [unclear].
ZG: E questo, e Don Eugenio ha aiutato il, il ragazzo a San Vittore?
AB: Eh, credo di sì. Eh certo che l’avrà aiutato, avrà cercato di portarlo fuori perché era un suo protetto, era uno di quelli.
ZG: E voi avete scoperto che Don Eugenio ha aiutato degli ebrei e dei partigiani dopo, finita la guerra?
AB: No, questo l’abbiamo, questo l’abbiamo scoperto finita la guerra. Che abbiamo saputo che lui ha salvato degli ebrei e dei partigiani. Mentre invece, sono venuti. Questo l’abbiamo saputo dopo. E quello di, della, quando è stato, è stato un po’, è stato poi mica neanche tanti anni fa che l’hanno, hanno messo l’albero dei giusti. Perché sa che gli ebrei hanno una foresta fatta con gli alberi.
MB: [laughs] Perché sai che, sì [laughs]
AB: E perché, non è così? è vero. C’è una foresta fatta solo di alberi con i nomi dei giusti che hanno aiutato gli ebrei.
ZG: Senta, le faccio le ultime due domande. Il Pippo, cosa si ricorda del Pippo?
AB: E del Pippo dicevano che era un italiano andato in America, un americano che era diventato diventato americano e che veniva a bombardare [background noise]
AB: Buongiorno, scusi tanto. Dicevano così e, si diceva che fosse un italiano americano che avesse delle spiate di qualcuno che gli diceva dove buttare la bomba. Ma lo chiamavano il Pippo, non so io. Era noto dappertutto dicevano il Pippo. Stanotte arriva il Pippo perché guardavano la giornata, se era una bella giornata questo si sapeva quando si, quando era in. Noi, io ero sul Lago Maggiore, se era una bella giornata, oggi il Pippo va a Milano. E noi avevamo paura perché a Milano c’erano tutti, tutti quelli sfollati perché ce n’erano di sfollati lì sul Lago Maggiore.
ZG: Ehm, questa storia qua lì del Pippo chi la raccontava?
AB: Eh ma tutti lo dicevano. Parlando sì, tutti. Perchè vede anche mia sorella lo sapeva che, non sapeva niente mia sorella perché mia sorella non. Io invece parlavo con gli altri bambini, gli altri, perché giocavamo eh, nonostante la guerra, noi si giocava per la strada in Via Confalonieri, si correva, si faceva. Poi nella, nella nostra casa, in Via Confalonieri 11, c’era un bel cortile che adesso dopo ultimamente era diventato il box di tutta la gente che, ma un tempo. Che bel colore di pantaloni che ha, e molto, è vero.
ZG: Senta, proprio ultimissime domande. Lei sapeva chi vi bombardava?
AB: Dicevano gli americani.
ZG: Che cosa, che cosa pensava allora di chi bombardava?
AB: Eh male. Perché devono bombardarci, di colpa non ne abbiamo noi, noi gente. I civili che cosa devono fare? I soldati va bene, sono comandati, ma noi che non eravamo neanche comandati, non sparavamo mica a loro. Eh, bombardarci voleva dire farci fare la morte del topo proprio perché non potevamo scappare, potevamo andare via.
ZG: Finita la guerra, ha più ripensato a, ai bombardamenti, a cosa si provava?
AB: No, perché dopo, quando sono venuti gli americani, gli americani hanno portato l’UNRRA, c’era l’UNRRA che davano le stoffe,
MB: I vestiti.
AB: Che davano i vestiti, così e vabbè, ben, ringraziamo, cosa dobbiamo fare.
ZG: Senta, adesso che cosa pensa invece di chi bombardava?
AB: Eh sempre male perché non era mica giusto. Però d’altra parte anche noi che abbiamo tradito i tedeschi, cosa pretendi. E poi se la prendevano con noi, con la gente inerme, mentre invece erano i capi che avevano sbagliato eh. Il re per esempio si è comportato male.
ZG: Senta, ultimissimissima domanda. La casa di sass, la vostra casa. Esiste ancora?
AB: Sì, certo. Adesso c’è la targa proprio per il Don Eugenio. C’è la targa che all’11 di Via Confalonieri, lei vede la targa proprio che qui è stata la casa dove è vissuto Don Eugenio Bussa, uno dei giusti d’Israele mi pare, mi pare che ci sia. Che è bruttissima. Adesso però l’hanno un po’ rimessa a posto perché mi pare che abbiano messo l’ascensore. Figuriamoci che noi la facevamo tutta a piedi, adesso adesso chissà come farei.
ZG: Senta, io vi ringrazio moltissimo e concluderei l’intervista.
AB: Va bene. Che sono intervenuta quando non dovevo.
ZG: Ma no.
SB: Ma no, ci mancherebbe.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Annunciata Buffadossi
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Annunciata Buffadossi recollects her wartime life in Milan. Annunciata stresses poor-quality housing in a low-class neighbourhood close to potential targets; emphasises how much she feared Germans and Fascists; and speaks with affection of her old house, a block of flats with shared balconies. Describes the effects of fire on her house and recollects how shelter life was like. Contrasts the boldness of her mother with the behaviour of her father, who was easily frightened in spite of his role as warden. Annunciata stresses her own care-free attitude, explaining how day bombings were welcomed as opportunities to skip school tests, and night attacks regarded as an annoyance rather than a serious menace. Mentions her brief evacuee experience which ended in 1943, when the bombing war intensified and the family resolved to face the danger together in Milan. Describes aircraft flying over Lake Maggiore, and how children tried to guess their target. Describes subterfuges to get food in spite of rationing, and mentions many war-related anecdotes: reprisals and post-war revenge, a draft dodger hiding in a concealed room for years, and military internees. Mentions Eugenio Bussa, one of the Righteous Among the Nations, explaining his benevolent activities, as well as his role as helpers of partisans and Jews. Tells many anecdotes of her relatives, especially in connection with the Duchess of Sartirana and her charitable activities. Describes Pippo as an aircraft piloted by an Italian American, who relied on information passed to him by helpers. Describes Americans as generally hated for the bombing of cities and killing innocent people. Links the bombing war with Italy’s change of allegiance and recognises the contribution of the allied after the end of the conflict.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Zeno Gaiaschi
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:19:20 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Pietra Ligure
Italy--Pallanza
Europe--Lake Maggiore
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABuffadossiA170528
PBuffadossiA1701
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
fear
Holocaust
home front
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1163/11722/ATompsonA160125.2.mp3
3d7af9f302b744370c9112ad7ec336f6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tompson, Anthony
A Tompson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Anthony Tompson DFC ( - 2019, 1382325, 138477 Royal Air Force).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tompson, A
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
NM: So, it’s, it’s Monday the 25th of January. My name is Nigel Moore. I’m with Flight Lieutenant Anthony Thompson DFC in his house in [deleted] in Hertfordshire and it’s 11 o’clock. So, would you like to start by telling us a little bit about your background, your childhood, your growing up before you joined the RAF?
AT: Well, I went to a secondary school and county school and took matric. And because I was more practical then theory and academic, I intended to look for an apprenticeship. And because I’d been interested in things electrical I joined the Post Office, Engineering Department. Sorry about my voice. I’m recovering from a bit of sickness. And I joined the Post Office and was with them for three or four years as an apprentice and I learned quite a lot. I learned about life for one thing and quite a lot about electricity. I went to in night school and day time study. And this was all immediately pre-war. Pre-war. And when war broke out or just before, the RAF were appealing for young men to come forward and volunteer for flight training. The idea appealed to me so with a bit of bending of the truth I managed to get in and was accepted for flight training. After the usual ground courses, I got sent over to Canada to learn to fly on a Tiger Moth. That went alright and I was eventually posted. Passed out and posted to another unit at Calgary in Alberta, where we were flying Airspeed Oxfords. And this was a much more sophisticated aeroplane and it was a bit beyond my abilities and I had trouble landing it. I was unable to judge height and I either landed six feet above the ground, so to speak, or six feet under it. Seldom on it. And I then, after a week or two of this the chief flying instructor took me on one side and kindly suggested perhaps this wasn’t the best profession for me, the best occupation for me and I’d like to think about something else. I could either drop the idea of aircrew altogether and look around for a ground job or I could carry on in a different aircraft, a different aircrew — I’m sorry. A different aircrew capacity. And after looking at the pros and cons we decided that navigation was something I could do quite well. So I was transferred to the Central Navigation School in Manitoba and did the course there which was run, just six months long. And I passed out fifth of about thirty students. I did quite well there and I loved it. And so I became what in those days was just called, sorry about my voice, in those days it was just called a navigator. These days I think it would have been [unclear] navigator or some other such thing. Anyway, from Canada I came back to the UK and did a few refresher courses. Mainly to relate what I’d learned at the environment of Canada to the rather different environment in Britain and went through to an OTU or Operational Training Unit where I joined a pilot and a gunner to form the nucleus of an aircrew. And we went on from there as a trio. Did quite well and went to a Conversion Unit where we picked up another four crew members. There we were, seven strong. A seven strong crew waiting for a posting which was eventually to a squadron in Suffolk at a place called Tuddenham. Which before the war had been a little village. A rural village. Mainly agricultural land. Grain growing country. And we joined this unit flying Stirling aircraft. The Stirling is one of the world’s forgotten aeroplanes. Designed immediately pre-war by Short’s. Short Armament of Belfast and, as I say drawing on their experience of designing the Empire Flying Boats, Catfoss and so on. The Stirling was built to the same standards of a flying boat and the characteristics of a flying duck. Had lots of room. Bitterly cold in the air. But there were some better low level performance than at height. They never really took off as one of the mass bombers that it was hoped but it was ideal for intruder work. And having formed this crew we went through one of the courses together and eventually passed out as an operational crew and were posted to 90 Squadron at, as I said, Tuddenham in Suffolk. And there we took part in various operations bombing strategic targets like railway junctions and things like marshalling yards and specific buildings. And later we got involved with the French underground, the Maquis and we were involved in supplying them. Dropping arms and ammunition to them in various locations. In view of the Stirling’s range and ability, in our case it was the foothills of the Alps and down near Lyon. We’d fly down there at low level to avoid detection as much as possible and to make air attack difficult and somewhere about a thousand feet or less. It was a strain on the two pilots and fairly, fairly easy for me because there were lots of opportunities for map reading. And we’d go down to the location which could be a clearing in a forest or a particular farm yard. Something of that kind. And we exchanged light signals with the people on the ground and having established identities we’d do a bombing. A bombing run and drop cylindrical containers of the required arms down by parachute. And there’s some lovely photographs of these things drifting down in the back of the, in the wake of the aircraft. Catching in the slipstream. Canopies opening. And down below they had the reception committee waiting and they were usually led by a British army officer. And these would be, these containers were would be collected and hidden and the parachute silk disposed of through domestic channels. And then we’d go back and wait for the next one. These were flights of about seven or eight hours. Rather tiring. We had two nights off afterwards. Two days and nights during which we could rest and recover and recreate as they say. So, we’d have a few beers in the mess and generally get ready for next time. That went on until just at the end of the war. But before then I’d finished my tour. A tour was thirty trips. I did those and then at the end of that time I went on to pass on what I’d gained in the way of knowledge and experience to people coming behind and became an instructor. That lasted for about six months. It was utterly boring. And I volunteered and was eventually managed to get out. Was posted to a Mosquito, to a Mosquito squadron of 8 Group. The Pathfinder group. And I was based at Wyton. Excuse me. In Huntingdonshire. And there we took part in [pause] nurse [pause] Sorry there was a pause for a slurp of water. On the squadron at Wyton I was part of what was known as the Light Night Striking Force. Light being reference to the weight of bombs you could carry. And I remember our first trip. We went to, had a crew of two, pilot and navigator and we went into briefing and expecting to be given an easy trip for the first, first time. Point of fact the target was Berlin which was rather, rather a shock. And that went off quite well. We found the abilities, the flying abilities of the Mosquito were more than a match for the enemy defences. And the worst thing you really could get was being latched on to by radar and tracked by night fighters. But we had enough speed to outfly them. A wonderful aeroplane. They were held together by glue. The wooden wonder. The wooden wonder it was called. And I finished the war on, did a second tour, thus completed a second tour on Mosquitoes and that was the end of our career really. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to stay in. The peacetime RAF were going to be, was going to be very different from the carefree, happy family environment of Bomber Command. And, excuse me, I decided to take my demob and to come out which I did. And then it was a question of making a living. And I got accepted for a job with British European Airways as it was then. And they had a contract with the Post Office, the British Post Office, to deliver mail to the remote locations in the Hebrides and the Scottish islands. And this involved a certain amount of navigation and I was accepted as the unit’s navigator. Navigator. I did a number of flights in helicopters delivering mail. Firstly, in East Anglia to practice and work out techniques. Then up in Scotland, around the islands. It was great fun. And there would be a reception committee. A postal van and a dour Scot in a Post Office uniform waiting to exchange mail. And this went on until, this went on for some months till suddenly the contract ended and it was not renewed. So after that I was again out of work and I joined, I saw an advertisement for somebody with roughly the qualifications I had to join de Havilland’s. Which I did. I applied and got the job. And this was in their guided weapons division. And I got into the world of rockets and things like that. Alright. Do you want to go on?
NM: Keep going. Yeah.
AT: And this was largely working with the Ministry of Supply to develop things like the Firestreak. The air to air missile. Finished up with Blue Streak which was Britain’s intercontinental, sorry about my voice, intercontinental ballistic missile. That involved a number, a number of trips to Australia. To Woomera. And I suppose that lasted for a year one way or the other. Eventually, eventually the time for retirement. Not something that really seemed to occur in RAF life but in civilian life it did. And after a period in London behind a desk, which I did not enjoy, I took retirement. And here I am. Reminiscing. Rambling on in a failing voice. I’m sorry about that. But over to you.
NM: Can I take you back to your time in 90 Squadron and Stirlings?
AT: Stirlings. Yes.
NM: You were doing mine laying, bombing, you were supplying the Resistance?
AT: Yes.
NM: Tell us about the, some mine laying trips and also the time that you were sort of ambushed with your Resistance supply dropping.
AT: Well yes. We, the mine laying trips were individual efforts. You went out as a single aircraft with an area to be mined. And because the Stirling had a considerable capacity, endurance, we really got the long trips. So, one of our favourite areas was the Eastern Mediterranean and across the Bay of Biscay to the estuary of the Garonne River which leads down to Bordeaux. The enemy was getting in supplies by sea via these routes and the British War Cabinet wanted it stopped. So we went around laying mines across the area and the enemy spent time trying to get rid of them. And there was a sort of a battle that went on. We laid more mines. They’d get rid of those. It occupied their, their forces and their strength and probably formed a useful diversion which was exploited by our side. Anyway, they were long trips and for a lot of the way, navigationally speaking they were boring trips. We set out with a forty five minute crossing. Crossing of the sea with nothing to see except stars and astro navigation. You felt sometimes you’d made the wrong choice. You’d like something more exciting. But we worked quite successfully at this and in due course became one of the senior crews on the squadron and carried on with this sort of work. You had a general scope of mine laying and Maquis supplying. Supplying the French and attacking a few strategic targets in between. And that’s how life went. The days were quite pleasant down in the agricultural area of Suffolk. If you weren’t flying you’d go down to the village for the evening. Drop into the local. And they were always very generous and looked after the Air Force and we’d have a few beers and a singsong with them. In the morning was a 9 o’clock briefing and then you walked up to your aeroplane. To your individual Stirling. Like luxury, 3 Group was. You had your own aircraft. You didn’t take one from the pool. And you’d fly your Stirling for an hour testing all the equipment. An air test it was called. You would fire the guns. Drop practice bombs on a range. Check all the radio equipment and make sure it was in first class order when you got back or reported defects to be put right during the afternoon. And then at about 5 o’clock you’d have an aircrew meal of something sustaining and then go off to the briefing. Had the final operational briefing and then straight out to the aeroplane and off. Come back, hopefully, some hours later. And there was always a member, it was rather like a family on the squadron and you sort of took interest in each other. And one of the questions they always got was, ‘Who’s not made it yet?’ ‘Who’s not made it back yet?’ Not so much what we have experienced and managed to overcome but how were other people getting on. And you could sometimes find an aircraft was lost and our last, last thoughts were people, you were friends. People you’d had a few drinks with a night or two before. Where were they? What were they doing? And life on the squadron was very much like that. And occasionally we had a virtual stand-down where you had a week’s notice that there would be no operations on a particular night and you planned for a party. You could invite the local big wigs in with their wives and have a formal dinner dance or you could forget about that and just let events take their course when things got a bit riotous. And that’s roughly what life was like. There were the afternoons. And when we had the morning air test and then lunch the afternoon was free until proper briefing time. We got on our bicycles, the rear gunner and I. He was much older than any of us. He was a country man. He was born in the, in Surrey and raised on a farm and joined the Brigade of Guards as a job. In the Blues and Royals. And he had a self-discipline, a self-discipline engendered by his experience in the army which more or less rubbed off on the rest of us and I’m sure improved our efficiency. Anyway, we’d go out in the country on our bicycles and sit down at the edge of a cornfield and just listen to the sounds of what was going on and just reminisce and chat and relax. That’s a great, a great foil for the activities that may be on the coming night. Anyway, I ramble on. Is there anything more I can tell you?
NM: Tell me about the operation with the Resistance supply that seemed to go wrong.
AT: Oh, the Resistance supply was planned that you would go to this point that was [pause] I’ll start again. The Resistance group was liaised, possibly, possibly led by a British Army officer who was seconded to them. Usually from the Royal Artillery. And they would, he would mastermind the operation and give information back to Britain by radio. Giving us information about what we, what we needed to know regarding dropping in a certain dropping area. The times, recognition signals and anything else of that nature. And on the basis of that information we planned the operation and organized the times, organized the aeroplane and fly off on the schedule we’d worked out. And fly, for security we’d fly at low level. Usually below a thousand feet. Map reading our way across Europe. And the crew we got to, with practice we got the crew very good at reporting what they could see. And I sat back with large scale maps of the area trying to correlate the information they were giving with the details on the map and that way we worked a good system. We could find our way around Europe pretty well. And having got down to the rough area we’d do a wide circuit flashing the recognised, the agreed recognition signal. And from the ground we’d get the matching signal back. The counterpart. When we were happy with each other’s identity they’d light a flare path. A long line of flares with a cross piece and this would give us a wind direction and the line they wished us to drop on. Then we’d do a straightforward bombing run on that. At the appropriate moment release the containers. The rear gunner would report they’d gone, He’d count the parachutes and say that eight containers had gone. We knew how many we were carrying so we knew there were no hang-ups. And that was it pretty well. When they’d all gone we could do another circuit and they would flash back a thanks signal and we’d wish them luck and fly back home. Long trips. Boring in some parts. But always susceptible. By this time the enemy knew we were, what we were doing. They knew roughly, they knew roughly where we were and they’d have night fighters up. Night fighters up on our route back. So there was a certain amount of activity on the aircraft keeping an eye open for them. So we got back to Britain, we’d flash again the recognition signal as you approached the British coast and the British defences would pass you on. Acknowledge your signal. Then you’d get in touch with base. And after that it was just a question of flying back to base and landing. Then it was debriefing. We had a truck waiting for the crew. For us. Hand the aircraft over to the ground, to the flight sergeant in charge of the ground crew. Any defect, any problem, any damage report to him. He’d get it sorted out. We’d get on board the truck, go down to intelligence and answer their questions. Tell them what we’d discovered. What we saw. This would go into a pool of information coming back from various aircraft in various bases that night and generally build up a picture of what was going on, on the other side for the operation, the operational command. Then off for an aircrew meal and to bed.
[recording paused]
AT: Eventually she got disenchanted with this and went in for nursing instead and was on the theatre team of the hospital. The Dunstable Hospital. So she’s kept an interest in us, Francis and me ever since this trouble started and we helped her. So that’s why she’s around.
NM: Ok. Can I take you back to the, there was one incident in the, when you were dropping supplies to the Resistance that seemed to go wrong?
AT: Occasionally units of the French units, the Resistance units were infiltrated by traitors and could be, could be taken over and used by Germans. By the enemy. And it happened to us once. We carried on with our normal routine and the answers came back very, very swiftly and pat. And we began to feel, to get that feeling that something wasn’t quite right. And you couldn’t do anything about it except be doubly alert and sure enough when we were doing our bombing, our run to drop the containers with the aircraft flaps out we were going along, barely airborne, as low as we could we had a great attack from the ground. As I say the height we flew precluded air attack or fighter attack but left us vulnerable to the ground and they had, they attacked with all sorts of gunfire. And we were, there were a few minor injuries. Bits of shrapnel flying around. The aircraft had some damage. And we got out as soon as we could and got home and lucky to get there I suppose. But that was the sort of excitement that one had on those in those days. You just used your training and your initiative to pick up on those things and cope with the situation. Over to you.
NM: There was another occasion when you were attacked and lost part of your wing and had to resort to astro navigation to get back was it? Can you tell us about that trip?
AT: Navigation. What was the navigation?
NM: You were, you were attacked and lost part of a wing and you carried on with the operation and had to get back using astro navigation.
AT: That’s right.
NM: Tell us. Tell us a bit about that trip.
AT: Well the aircraft was controllable. The performance was debased but we managed to get, to keep it airborne. We, the pilot and the co-pilot. And the flight engineer was happy with the situation. And we had to rely always on an alternative. We couldn’t quite follow the route home that we’d planned from landmark to landmark. So we had to use astro navigation which meant flying steadily for two minutes I think it was. The sextant taking our star shots with us, or a number of star shots with the sextant. Now, the sextant worked with a chamber inside it which contained a liquid which under pressure with a capsule was pressurised, could be pressurized by taking a screw out a screw and this caused a bubble to form. And the idea was it had bubbles like a spirit level. Had to be kept in by moving a sextant and it kept in the middle of this chamber. And this was illuminated dimly as a light coloured ring. And your, the image of the star you were using appeared in the, within that frame according to the way you were holding the sextant and directing it. And you worked the, altered the positions, the latitude of the aircraft until the image appeared in the centre of the bubble. Then you carried on gradually coming back. Anyway, it was a tedious business and it went on for two minutes and that’s a very long time when you’re holding a sextant. Trying to balance. And at the end you had a set of readings which, with which you went in the air almanac which was really a list of readings that should be obtained if you are where you hope to be. Various places along, along the route. And you plotted. Your reading could be converted into what was called a position line. A bearing along, somewhere along which you were at the time and you’d reduce it to that. Plot that on the chart and then try and find another. Another position line. Either from a different star or from ground observation which would intersect the first as closely as possible to a right angle. You get a sharp cross. And that was your position at that time. Astro navigation was a tedious business and not popular but it was there and it couldn’t be interfered with so something you fell back on. And on this occasion we managed to fall back on it. And I can’t remember the details now but no doubt we got information which was sufficient. Sufficient for the purpose because here I am.
NM: So how was the aircraft damaged on that occasion? Was it ground fire? Flak? Or was it a night fighter?
AT: I think it was ground fire. I don’t recall it very clearly. I think it was ground fire. Flying at low level it wasn’t, it wasn’t difficult for the enemy to work out the direction you were, in which you were flying and to alert gun positions further along that route. And with four radial engines, seven hundred and fifty horsepower each blasting out the exhaust they could very quickly latch on to hearing you and plot you and pick you up. And at low level they’d got a chance of hitting you.
NM: There was another occasion you had a double engine failure on take-off with a crash landing.
AT: That’s right. That was on a Stirling. That was something that could happen and [pause] I think Colin was the pilot. Sergeant pilot. He was very quick. He and the flight engineer recognised this and alerted everybody to the situation. We all got in the crash positions where if the aircraft crumbled around us we’d all stand a chance of surviving. I know mine was back in, in between the spars. The Stirling wing was a massive girder which passed from one wing tip through the fuselage to the other wing tip and there were two four and a half girders with about four or five feet between them and my crash position was in between the two. I remember scrambling down there, lodging myself in firmly. And as for the Stirling’s nose the bomb aiming panel was cut out from the other side of the nose which left it like a scoop. And as the aircraft hit the ground this scoop was bringing up stones and soil and so on. Piling back into the fuselage. I looked at this and wondered if it was going to, whether it would stop before I had to get out or whether I’d have to cope with that as well. Fortunately it stopped but that was another interesting thing. They found afterwards there was a design fault somewhere in the system which caused the engine failure. I’m casting my eye around. Somewhere around this room maybe, or this [unclear] is my logbook.
NM: We can, we can look at that after.
AT: I’m sorry?
NM: We can look at that afterwards.
AT: Yes. I was wondering if it contained any details. Never mind.
NM: We can pick that up. Yeah. Now, you, you took part in an operation on, on D-Day.
AT: Sorry?
NM: You took part in an operation on D-Day itself, didn’t you?
AT: Yes. It was obvious from general events that D-Day was coming and we had one or two practices. And then the whole environment on the squadron changed. Everybody was kept on camp. Nobody could go off into the local town and nobody went off on leave. We were kept. Locked down as it were. And you had an aircrew meal which usually contained an egg in some form. This took place early in the afternoon I remember. At the usual time. And it was obvious to us what was going to happen. Anybody with any intelligence knew we’d been waiting for this and this was it. And we were told to report to the briefing room ready to go. Complete in flying clothing. All equipment. Which was unusual. Usual that we changed clothing after briefing but not on this occasion which added to our certainty that this was it. And from briefing we got on to enter the crew bus. Straight out to the aircraft. No stopping. No diversions. No possibility of informational leaks from one place to another. Service police were around and watching. And straight into the aircraft. And then it was normal procedure. And we flew, according to instructions, at low level. Down across the UK. I think we got to [pause] I’m not sure if it was Beachy Head. Somewhere on the, some location on the south coast. And they took off across, took off from the aircraft. Set course across the channel and there was quite a battle. I remember I saw quite a lot of activity down below and we were dropping supplies to the army. We got to the dropping zone. Went through, went through the motions. Dropped the containers and got out again as fast as we could. We got back to the UK, landed at base. Again, heavy security and a very truncated debriefing. Normally that went on for some time to get as much information as possible about enemy dispositions and movements on the other side. On this occasion there was none of that. A question of — you’re back, anything vital to report? Ok. Back to bed. You may be wanted. Straight to bed. And ready to be called out maybe an hour later depending on how things went. Fortunately we weren’t called and in the morning of course on the news was all of the invasion. The invasion is on. And the, the [public knew?] about as much as we did. What you do, the policy of the security is what you don’t know you can’t reveal. So we weren’t told anymore officially than we had to know. Yeah. There afterwards a question of operational requirements. Dropping further supplies if necessary. A bit of strategic bombing if it was needed. Knock out that rail junction or a road junction in advance of the army.
NM: And part of your drops on D-Day.
AT: Sorry?
NM: Part of the drops you did on D-Day itself were a lot of Window and also the Rupert dummies.
AT: That’s right. Thank you for reminding me now. Yes. Ruperts were fun. They were about five feet high I suppose. Cut out of a figure with a parachute and fireworks were verey cartridges that went off on landing. Pressure switch. And simulated the sort of signal that you would expect from an assembly rallying point. And the dummies going down, they attracted enemy fire. I can’t remember much else about them. I know we had one in the briefing room and it was used as a demonstration model of what was going to happen. Yes. Ruperts. I don’t know why they were called Rupert. Presumably it’s the designer or somebody high up had that name. And D-Day was quite striking. You could see the landing craft making their way across The Channel and it wasn’t, wasn’t terribly smooth. We thought of all those seasick soldiers who would have to carry on. And we were at low level. I can’t, I don’t remember now about the ground operations on the beaches. I think we were in advance of that. I think we were preparing for it but didn’t actually see it. But the, the sight of those landing craft was quite something. We’d seem them before on practice runs. Usually off the, somewhere off Weymouth. That area. I recognised the vessel but they were having a very rough time. I gather there was a chance the whole operation would be postponed because of bad weather but that would have been an enormous thing. An enormous task to undertake. I think they decided to, obviously they decided to go. Anyway, we felt we were safe and snug in our aircraft and thankful we weren’t down below. And straight back to base afterwards after having done what we had to do. Straight back to base by the shortest route. Refuel. Reload. And get to my debriefing. Get to bed in case you were wanted again. In case things on the ground over there took a turn for the worse and we were needed to urgently resupply. So, get what rest you can. Which we did. But we were not called. Things went as required, I think.
[pause]
NM: So that was the end of your first tour.
AT: Well yes.
NM: How did you adapt to becoming an instructor after the operational side of life?
AT: To begin with you were hesitant. As I am now. Which wasn’t very impressive. But eventually you got used to it. You got the patter. You knew the syllabus you were trying to follow. You knew how to liaise with people. You went through each student you were allocated. Three or four students to look after. And you went through their practice flights in fine detail. See where they had made a mistake or a wrong decision and you go through with them after like a tutor. You were a tutor. And we’d get used to that after a few episodes and I didn’t enjoy it very much. It was nice I suppose knowing that you would go back to a comfortable bed. Wouldn’t be roused in the middle of the night to go and do an air sea rescue. That was another feature. If somebody ditched, went down in The Channel, efforts were made to get them back. Firstly, I think it sounds a bit callous but I think firstly to prevent them falling into enemy hands and being interrogated by all the devious means the enemy was using. Drugs mainly. And [pause] what led me into this? Yeah. So this was one of the features of going to bed and getting as much rest as you could because it was one of the things you could get called out for. We were one night, somewhere up on the North Sea and we never found anything. We were given a box, an area to cover. When you covered it you’d have a brief look again and then come back. It appears to me as something I get right.
[recording paused]
NM: So, after six months instructing you joined Mosquito 162 [sic] Squadron.
AT: That’s right.
NM: Led by Ivor Broom.
AT: That’s right.
NM: Tell me about life on that squadron.
AT: Well, that was quite a different environment. First of all, on a Stirling squadron if you were lucky you had to wait for an, wait for an aircraft. You weren’t allocated your own aircraft until one became available. And this might be several, several weeks away. But I turned up at 163 and they said, ‘Right. Your aircraft is R for Roger. Go and have a look at it and meet the ground staff,’ which was rather a shock. I didn’t expect anything as fast as that but in 8 Group things moved quickly. Partly because it was led by a dynamic New Zealander and this group philosophy sort of filtered down to the squadrons. And yeah, we took our first flight in the aircraft and I remember, I remember that they too, the navigator was the bomb aimer as well in the Mosquito. You had to leave your seat and go and lie down prone beside the pilot. This meant that the oxygen pipe had to be long enough to put out a supply in the new position. It had to be fairly long. And I remember that during the practice, during the operation, the first operation it wasn’t long enough. There was no way it could get down there. It was one thing we failed to check during the air test. It was a warning — never assume anything. Check. Always check everything for yourself. And, yeah I remember the thrill of that first Berlin. That was always the big one. The Mosquito wasn’t so big. It could go high up. Beyond, beyond a lot of the ground defences. Most of them. And the horror of going down to the nose, finding the oxygen pipe wasn’t long enough at twenty five thousand feet. So I took two or three deep breaths, I remember. Filled my lungs with oxygen as far as I could and went down and did the bombing run. That was a salutary lesson. Never assume that things will be what you expect them to be. And [pause] I was trying to think if there was anything else. Anything else notable on that trip. I haven’t read my notes. Was there anything you want to mention?
NM: There was another one of these trips you were attacked by a night fighter.
AT: Oh yes. This happened suddenly. Without warning obviously and I was sitting around. The pilot was very, very good. Very skilled. And he took evasive action and I had to tell him which way to turn and what action to take. I was sitting in my usual position with my head screwed around so I could see backwards. You could see lines of tracer bullets from an enemy passing by. Get an idea where he was and transferred this information into suggestions to the pilot that he might fly at this location or dive or climb or take some manoeuvre to throw the enemy off. And this seemed to work. All of these ideas you practised during the daily air test. Every day do an air test during the morning with the Mosquitoes up in The Wash. Over the sea. This voice is ridiculous.
[pause]
[recording paused]
AT: Ok. Over to you again.
NM: So, in total you went to Berlin twelve times.
AT: Twelve times, that’s right.
NM: What about other targets?
AT: Well yes, usually of tactical importance. Railway crossings, railway junctions, road junctions. I think we went to one or two docks. Ports. Oh, by this time the invasion was on. There was a question of disrupting enemy communications and their ability to move materials and men in numbers around north west, North Western Europe.
NM: Were there any particular operations that stand out in your second tour?
[pause]
AT: This distance in time it’s hard to remember.
NM: So, in 1945 you were awarded the DFC.
AT: Yes.
NM: How did you feel about that?
AT: I was chuffed of course. Very pleased. Not sure I really deserved it but the CO seemed to think so. Of course it cost me a lot of money in beer. In beer in the mess that night. And a trip to the Palace to receive it. It would have been the king but the king was ill with lung cancer and it was [unclear]and the thing about it that sticks in my mind is quite stupid. He was wearing white knitted gloves. Machine knitted. He shook hands with everybody but he was wearing white gloves. And we of course had none. And I thought, why? I recognise the importance but why does he have to wear gloves at all? It can’t be that we would contaminate him in some way. Anyway, perhaps its protocol. And it was stolen later. It was silver. Made of silver of course and at this time there was an interest in silver as an important resource for the country. And people were trotting off to the jewellers with the silver cutlery or silver tankards and things. And about this time the house that we owned in Harpenden was intruded, burgled. And my logbook went. And the DFC, and a few other bits and pieces. The logbook turned up later on a bookstall. I remember Toc H, the charity. They ran a Saturday morning bookstall in Harpenden outside the George Hotel. And one of our friends was passing by one day and he had a habit of stopping to see what there was there and he saw this unusual book. Had a look. Saw whose it was. Recognised it as mine and he bought it. That’s how I got it back. But I never saw, never saw the DFC again. For ceremonial purposes I got a replica which I still have and when it was necessary to wear the full medal I wore the replica [pause] and nobody knew.
[Telephone ringing. Recording paused]
NM: So, did you stay in touch with the RAF after the war in terms of squadron reunions or Associations?
AT: I have been, yes. I joined the local branch of the Royal Air Force Association. I joined the Royal Air Force, I joined the Association as a life member. Attached to the local branch I obviously knew that it had disbanded some years later. Well I’m now attached to a head office role and I get the magazine. “Air Mail” they call it. And notices of events. Some of which I go to. But I think one or two old colleagues are still around. We’re of an age now when we’re dropping off one by one. Falling off the perch as we used to say. And I don’t know of any of my crew that are left. Mosquito pilot’s gone. I know all of the Stirling crew are gone. Canadians are gone. The rear gunner’s gone. I don’t know how I’m carrying on really. I don’t know how. I’ve been well looked after I guess. Anyway, the Royal Air Force Association was open to all ranks and the local branch was a bit of a, a bit of a disappointment. They held its meetings in the function room of the local pub and that was a recipe for disaster. It became a, really what they used to call a boozy evening. Didn’t achieve very much. The Association as such. It still organises a number of interesting events. Some of which include Runnymede where there’s a memorial. But gradually memories are going. Individuals are going. Individually, I see it as an organisation which will eventually join forces with the British Legion and any celebrations will be in November. And I think it is going to come. At the moment we stagger on from event to event. A new Bomber Command Memorial. The Spire. A new enthusiasm. I’ve not been to see it. I probably won’t go now. I found it sensible to give up motoring when I had my little troubles. I realised that in any accident I was involved in which would include the police they’d look at my medical records and say, ‘Oh yes sir, I see sir. Yes sir. Quite so’ And I’d get the blame whether I was guilty as it were or not. So rather than go through that and the tedium of insurance compensation which costs a lot I decided to give up. And what I saved in tax, fuel and so on pays for taxis as we need them. And my family are very good. They’re all motorists so I’ve only to say I want to go to so and so and I have two or three offers. So we manage quite well without. But what led into that?
NM: When you look back on your time in Bomber Command.
AT: Yeah.
NM: What are your main reflections?
AT: In wartime of course it was one big happy family really. Matter of fact it’s comradeship. Interest and concern really for other people. Joe Bloggs. Did Joe Bloggs get back? And the sadness if the answer was no and you would sit back and get a bit reflective. What happened to them all? It was like there was sort of a cosy feeling when you went in the mess. Everybody was like a brother. On the operational side everything that was, could be done to safeguard the crews was done. It was rather, there was no great glaring gap. No great, sort of, why didn’t they do this or do that? And I think Bomber Command was good one to be in. It didn’t have the charisma of Fighter Command or the sheer boredom of Coastal Command.
NM: And how do you think Bomber Command has been recognised since the war?
AT: Well we’ve now got the Spire. And Runnymede. But it wasn’t very much after the war. We had the odd reunion. Gradually in time, you get individuals went and [unclear] the impetus was lost. It wasn’t till this last few years we got the Memorial at Runnymede that people have taken a new interest. It became a way of life really. In Fighter Command you were available and could be called on at very short notice. At Bomber Command it was more quietly planning. You had a routine.
[recording paused]
AT: There were times when you’ve been on leave. Maybe had ten days leave and days eight, nine and ten you wondered what to do with yourself. People, chaps you knew in civilian life were away in the forces somewhere. It got very boring. Relatives loved having you around. You had to consider that. But generally speaking you felt more at home in the Air Force than you did at home. [unclear] but it’s all different now I guess.
[recording paused]
AT: Various jobs after the war. I think the pilot, Colin, went back to, I think he was a marine draughtsman. He went back to that. Ronald, Ron the rear gunner, the ex-guardsman, went back to training police horses. The bomb aimer, a Canadian, went back home. Took a degree at the University at Guelph in Ontario and became a, he started breeding horses, [unclear] horses. Sadly he died. I went to stay with him once at a rackety farm. Farm life. And we had a wild week in Ontario. People are not so confined to activities over there or in Australia with the use of a gun. Over here it’s something that immediately attracts attention. The police want to know if you’ve got one but out there nobody seemed to bother.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Anthony Tompson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Nigel Moore
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATompsonA160125
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:16:04 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Anthony Tompson worked as an engineer for the Post Office before he volunteered for the Air Force. While training as a pilot in Canada it was discovered he had a difficulty with perception and he trained instead as a navigator. On return to the Great Britain he was posted to 90 Squadron at RAF Tuddenham. Here the crew undertook a number of operations including several drops to Resistance groups in France. He describes one occasion when the Resistance group had been infiltrated and they came under attack from ground fire. After his tour he became an instructor but wanted to return to the excitement of operational flying. He was posted to 163 Squadron at RAF Wyton flying Mosquitos. Expecting that their first operation with the new squadron might be a gentle one he was rather surprised to find his first operation with the new squadron was to Berlin. He took part in the last Bomber Command operation of WW2 on 2nd May 1945.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1945
163 Squadron
8 Group
90 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
military ethos
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Normandy deception operations (5/6 June 1944)
Pathfinders
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Wyton
Resistance
Stirling
take-off crash
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/231/3604/PSpencerAHG1701.1.jpg
65cd99eb9fc28251abf8fb8fadf3114d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/231/3604/ASpencerAHG170227.1.mp3
6b18db56623f80f8bd93869166ae985a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Spencer, Arthur
Arthur Humphrey George Spencer
Arthur H G Spencer
A H G Spencer
A Spencer
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history with Flight Lieutenant Arthur Humphrey George Spencer (b. 1921, 1311996 and 145359 Royal Air Force), a memoir and an essay. Arthur Spencer trained in the United States and flew two tours of operations as a navigator with 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall spa and RAF Bourn. He later became 205 Group's Navigation Officer. He flew with British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Spencer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-02
2017-02-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Spencer, AHG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PL: My name’s Pam Locker and I’m in the home of Mr Arthur Humphrey George Spencer *********** on the 27th of February 2017 at 10 o’clock. And if I could just start off by saying a very enormous thank-you on behalf of the Bomber Command Digital Archive for agreeing to talk to us and to share your memories. So if I could start by — Perhaps you could tell me a little bit about your family and how you first became involved with Bomber Command.
AS: Ok, well, I was born in Salisbury, Wilts, but my parents must have moved to Southampton before my memory begins and I was brought up in Southampton. I enjoyed school. I went to a very large Boys’ Grammar School and I was in my first year in the Sixth Form at the time of the Munich crisis and there was obviously going to be a war and as I finished school, the war broke out. In fact the first year of the war was during my last year at school. Obviously the Air Force were recruiting madly at the time of the Battle of Britain and I had grown up on the literature of the First World War. Siegfried Sassoon, Wilfred Owen and that sort of thing and realised that warfare in the trenches was pretty horrible. Richard Aldington wrote a very good novel called “Death of a Hero” which I still think is one of the best novels ever written and, so I volunteered for the Air Force and after the usual waiting around period, I found myself in the Air Force. Initially as a, an under training pilot but I didn’t make the grade as a pilot, although I got more than half way through the course. I was very late washing out as the Americans called it. I was in Florida. And so I re-mustered as a navigator and was sent back to Florida, to the United States Naval Air Station Pensacola, to undergo a navigation course. I never failed to be horrified at the inadequacy of the practical training on that course. If I’d had been at an RAF or RCAF Navigation School, I’d have had about a hundred and fifty hours in the air, undertaking navigation exercises. At Pensacola, I had less than thirty hours of flying. All of it over the Gulf of Mexico and never once experienced navigating an aircraft. The American naval way of doing things was to send up about eight people together and two of them would practice taking sun shots with a sextant, two of them would practice using the drift meter, two of them would be firing guns and two of them doing something else which I’ve forgotten, but completely inadequate. However, the theoretical side of the course, the classroom side, was excellent. It was run by an American naval officer, navigator, assisted occasionally by the RAF liaison officer and I did have a very, very good theoretical background. We were told, towards the end of the course, that the top six to, in the final examination, would ferry an aircraft home, so my first flight as a navigator was ferrying a Ventura across the Atlantic. We went to — the top six went to Dorval and then flew, after crewing up with a very experienced American civil pilot and an equally experienced wireless operator and a second pilot, who was, like ourselves, had just finished his course. We were allocated a Ventura. Little two-engined aircraft which we had to deliver to Prestwick. We, all the aircraft being ferried across at that time flew to Gander in Newfoundland and then these little aircraft had to wait for a tail wing component to get across the Atlantic. Now I was stuck there with another navigator who’d been an acquaintance at Pensacola, but not a particular friend, but because we were stuck there for a fortnight together waiting for a tail wing, we became very good friends and by co-incidence, he was sent to the same squadron as myself and when he retired from a very senior position in industry, he came to live in Somerset and so we remained lifelong friends. And, he died a couple of years ago. His family were good enough to ask me to make the eulogy at his funeral and his wife is now in a nursing home near Taunton. We try and see her every third week because her son lives in Australia and her daughter lives in Germany so we are the local contact. His name is George Brantingham and I mention this because he plays a fairly important part in a later stage of the story. Anyway, we got across the Atlantic successfully and after further training, I got to Bomber Command Operational Training Unit at Upper Heyford. Number 16 OTU. And one of the most important things you do at Operational Training Unit is to crew up into a crew. And in the literature, you find horrific stories of people being put into a hanger, twenty pilots, twenty navigators, twenty wireless operators and so on and being told, ‘Sort yourselves out.’ And I read this sort of thing time and time again. It was much more civilised fortunately at Upper Heyford. We were told that the course would be four weeks ground school and then the pilots would go off to a satellite airfield to learn to fly Wellingtons and then they’d come back and we would spend the last six weeks of the course flying cross-countrys and so on together. And we’d only been there two or three days when George, my friend, George Brantingham said to me, ‘I’ve got myself a pilot.’ Well I hadn’t really thought about it at that stage but I said, ‘You were quick off the mark, George. Who is it?’ And he told me it was a Sergeant Tracy, a larger than life American who’d gone north over the border to join the RCAF. And so at the next opportunity, I contacted George and said, ‘I hear you’ve got yourself a navigator. Can you recommend a pilot to me?’ And he thought for a minute and he said, ‘Well I reckon young Jimmy Munro is about the best pilot on our course.’ At the earliest opportunity, I found Jimmy. A very fresh-faced eighteen year old Canadian and I said, ‘Have you got a navigator yet?’ ‘No.’ ‘What about taking me on?’ ‘Ok that’s fine.’ And that conversation is probably why I’m here today. If I’d had a different pilot I might well not have been. But he was, as Bill Tracy had said, an incredibly good pilot. He’d grown up on the Ottawa River in a little hamlet called Fitzroy Harbour and part of his boyhood was canoeing on the Ottawa River and he handled a Lancaster just as well as he handled a canoe. And so we got through our OTU successfully. Went to Swinderby, just outside of Lincoln, to convert to Lancasters and so to 97 Squadron, fairly late in December, before Christmas, but fairly late in December 1942. Can I stop there a minute?
AS: Talk about —
PL: Re-starting, re-starting recording with Mr Spencer.
AS: Right, well, 97 Squadron in fact didn’t unleash us against the enemy right away. They gave us quite a bit more training before they decided to let us fly Lancasters, one of their precious Lancasters, on Operations. 97 by the way, was one of the very first squadrons to be equipped with Lancasters and part of their history was the daylight Augsburg raid of 1942. And some of the crew who took part in that raid were still at Woodhall Spa when we joined the squadron. Our first Operation, like all first Operations was mine-laying down on the Gironde estuary, near Bordeaux, and then we set about operating mainly to the Ruhr, Hamburg, Nuremberg, Munich, Wilhelmshaven. All in my Log Book. And the incident I want to talk about a little bit, is on the 19th of March 1943, when I flew with one of the Dambusters. Co-incidentally, he was also Munro but whereas my pilot was Sergeant Munro, this was Flight Lieutenant Les Munro, which is a name you may possibly have come across before now. Well, the three crews went from our squadron to join 617, but they started intensive low-level flying training before they left, before they left Woodhall Spa. And on one of these occasions, Flight Lieutenant Munro’s navigator was quite badly gashed across the forehead in what we would now call, nowadays call a bird strike. Now these three crews weren’t screened, was the word which we used for Operations, they were still taking part in Operations, and he was scheduled to go on Operations, but he didn’t have a navigator. Jock Rumbles, his navigator was too badly injured to go, so I was allocated to him. And that morning I flew an air test with him. You nearly always did an air test before you flew Operations at night. Twenty-five minutes. But Operations were cancelled before we even got to briefing. So although I flew with him, I didn’t operate with him. At the time I was very glad not to, because it was regarded as a bit dicey operating away from your own crew. You were very much a Unit as a crew but in retrospect it would be nice to be able to say I’d flown an Operation with one of the Dambusters. But I didn’t think that at the time, I was glad not to go. Well we continued flying, building up Operations ‘till we moved down to Bourn in April 1943 to join Pathfinder Force. We had another intensive period of training. Normally when crews joined the Pathfinder Force they went to Upwood, the Pathfinder Training School, but because we moved as a squadron, the Unit’s instructors came to us and we did a lot of intensive training. I remember Bennett. He was frequently with the squadron. He was the AOC at Pathfinder Force, of course. And one of the things he said was, ‘Of course the really important people in the crew are the navigators and bomb aimers. The pilots are only the chauffeurs to get them there.’ Which was very good for our morale, of course, as navigators. And by the time we’d finished our Pathfinder Training, it was May. Nights were very, very short indeed. And so virtually all our early Pathfinder Operations were to the Ruhr and the Ruhr took about three hours, three and half, four hours. Anywhere else in Germany took much longer. You couldn’t get there and back under cover of darkness. So we went to the Ruhr. Can we stop a second again there?
PL: Of course.
PL: Re-starting the tape.
AS: Pathfinder Force had been formed sometime fairly early in 1942. It happened after all Bomber Command had been equipped with cameras which took automatic photos when bombs were released. And when these early pictures were analysed, it was found that something like five percent of the aircraft dropped their bombs within three miles of the target, or something like that. Some infinitely small number of bombs were getting anywhere near the target and one of the measures adopted was to form Pathfinder Force which was then equipped with the, what was then the state of the art radar operation and all the other new instruments that were coming in and our job was to go in and either light up a target or more frequently mark it with bombs which were called target indicators which would burst barometrically at three thousand feet over the target because frequently the target couldn’t be seen once bombs started going down with so much smoke and dust coming up. But these target indicators hung on a parachute at about three thousand feet but they only lasted six minutes so they had to be backed-up fairly frequently. And the main Force coming along behind would bomb on the target indicator, not worry about finding an actual building or railway yard or docks or something like that to — Anyway, as I say, our early Operations in Pathfinder Force were all the Ruhr because the nights were so short. And we expected to be going to the Ruhr on the 16th of June. We’d done an air test in the morning and a bit naughtily we’d been shooting up a train just outside of Cambridge, diving at it, flying alongside it and the passengers were obviously enjoying it, they were waving back to us enthusiastically and the engine-driver was obviously enjoying it too, because he leaned out of his cabin and gave us a sign. [laughs] And er, but when it got a bit close into Cambridge, we decided we’d better go home, so we flew back to base. And when we got back to base, there was the Flight Commander’s van waiting in dispersal and we thought, ‘Oh dear. We’re in trouble,’ because we were flying quite low enough for people to see our identification letters, ‘OF-J Johnny’, and there must have been some senior officer on board, we thought, who’d got on the phone, the blower we would have called it then, as soon as he got into Cambridge and complained about these young idiots who were risking their lives in an expensive aircraft. However the Flight Commander was not there for that reason. The Flight — Jimmy opened the window and the Flight Commander called up, ‘Jimmy. You’re to take a week’s kit and fly up to Scampton after lunch.’ ‘Ok. What for?’ ‘I don’t know. You’ll get all the gen when you get there.’ So we weren’t in trouble. We found, when we got back to the mess, that four crews were going to Scampton. Now Scampton of course was the home of the Dambusters. So our attitude was, a little bit ambivalent. On the one hand, what a compliment to be one of only four crews in Pathfinder Force to be selected to take part in some special Operation. On the other hand, were we really awfully keen to be, take part in some Operation with a squadron which had only done one Operation, but on it, had lost about forty-five percent of it’s aircraft. [laughs] So, as I say, our thoughts were a bit ambivalent but there was nothing we could do about it. So we packed our kit after lunch and flew up to Scampton and when we got there, we were eventually four aircraft as I say. I’ll name the four captains. Jimmy, now a Pilot Officer, Pilot Officer Jones, Pilot Officer Munro, Pilot Officer Jones, who’d been one of the other crews that joined 97 from Swinderby in, at Christmas and two older pilots who were just coming back to 97 for a second tour. Because 97, a two-flight squadron at Bourn, at Woodhall Spa, had grown to a three-flight squadron at Bourn, so a lot of new crews coming in. So four crews were taken along to a briefing room and there, an elderly captain, a Group Captain, told us why we were there. When I say elderly, he was about thirty-five. But, er. [laughs] You know, we were all in our teens and young twenties so he seemed elderly. I’ve researched him since, and actually and I’ve found he was thirty-four at the time. [laughs] Anyway, he told us that we would be assisting Five Group, they were, of course based all round Lincoln, on a special Operation which would take place in the near future and we would be lighting the target and marking it for the aircraft of Five Group who would provide the main Force. Ok. Where? Well he either couldn’t or wouldn’t tell us when. ‘It’ll be in the next few nights, because you need a full moon to reach a pin-point target.’ And he also told us that for the next couple of nights, we would be practising over Wainfleet Sands which was a bombing range on the Wash. And that we weren’t allowed to go into Lincoln, which seemed a pity, but, still, we were confined to camp. Well after a couple of nights practising over Wainfleet Sands, we — going back a little bit, we were told as the Pathfinder crews, we had to decide the plan of attack. And what we decided was that two aircraft, ours and Pilot Officer Jones would go in first and lay a line of flares either side of the target and the other two would come along and mark it behind us. Aft er a couple of days practice, we went to briefing, and I think it was the only time I ever went for a morning briefing, and we were told where the target was, and it was the old airship shed at Friedrichshafen on Lake Constance. And they were manufacturing there some new radar devices which would no doubt improve the defences of the Ruhr and it would be in our own interest to make sure that this attack was well-carried out. But that if it didn’t occur in the next few nights, it wouldn’t take place at all because it needed good weather and a full moon. And then at the end of the briefing, almost off-handedly, we were told, ‘Well. Friedrichshafen is much too far into Germany for you to get there and back under cover of darkness so you’ll fly straight on over the Mediterranean to Algiers. Algiers and Tunisia of course having recently, having been taken by Operation Torch, the attack on the west side of Africa. Mainly French and American but it had given us airfields in North Africa which we could use. And after briefing, we could go to stores and draw some tropical kit. Which we did. None of us of course had badges of rank on this basic tropical kit which caused one or two problems when we were in Algiers, but I’ll come to that later. Well the afternoon was a lovely afternoon and we thought, ‘Ok.’ But we kept in touch with the Met Office and they got increasingly pessimistic as the afternoon went on and very close they said, ‘No. It’s not going to happen tonight.’ So we wasted our time the next day and the Met Office were becoming more optimistic and it looked as though we would go and apparently a Met Flight, Meteorological Flight, a Spitfire, went out over southern Germany and reported that the weather was good, so Operations were on. So we loaded up our kit and we took off that night at twenty to ten. That was Double British Summer Time of course and as we took off from Scampton, which incidentally was an all grass airfield. There were no runways there which surprised us that the Dambusters had been operating from an air— and of course we had a terrifically heavy load, over two thousand two hundred gallons of petrol in order to do the long flight to Algiers, so it was quite a struggle getting the thing into the air but we all got into the air and as we looked round, there were aircraft coming up from all the other Lincolnshire airfields and we set off and flew to Reading which was the first turning point. And from Reading to Selsey Bill, down on the south coast and we got there too early to cross over to France. We would have arrived in daylight and fighters patrolling the south coast came up and flew around us and waggled their wings at us which we took to mean they were wishing us good luck. And as darkness began to fall, one or two more adventurous spirits certainly set course earlier than I intended to let my pilot go but I’d done my calculations very carefully and we would get to the French coast at darkness, not into daylight. I had no wish to be over the French coast in daylight. We crossed the French coast at a little seaside town called Cabourg and I thought perhaps I’m the only person of the, what, five hundred airmen above Cabourg who’s been there before because at one stage of my education, about the third year of Grammar School, the Headmaster had said to my parents, ‘He’s doing very well in most subjects but his French is not very wonderful.’ And that was an understatement. And he recommended an exchange with a French boy and the school being right on the French coast, along the south coast, many exchanges took place every year, of course, and I was lucky enough to go three times to the same little town in Normandy, and the nearest seaside town was Cabourg, so I was taken to Cabourg quite a lot as a fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year old. Anyway we crossed at Cabourg and the Germans fired off light flak at us but light flak burns out at about twelve or thirteen thousand feet and we were up at about twenty thousand so we sneered at it a little bit and put our noses down to, as we’d been ordered to do, to go quickly through the fighter battle on the French coast and the next turning point was Orléans. Very badly blacked-out and then we turned east towards Switzerland and the weather deteriorated a bit but I’d got a drift on and an occasional light and I was pretty certain that whatever the weather, we’d see the Rhine, because even at that far from the mouth of the Rhine, it’s still a very big river. And just about as, on the ETA, Estimated Time of Arrival I’d given the pilot, he and the bomb aimer shouted, simultaneously, ‘Rhine coming up.’ And there was Basle. Basle of course is part of Switzerland. We shouldn’t have been over Switzerland but we briefed to go over Switzerland, so there we were. And we flew along the, roughly along the border between Switzerland and Germany to a point on the south side of the lake. The south side of the lake being in Switzerland and we were to orbit a little headland on the south side of the lake and then we had worked out it would take three minutes to cross the lake and three minutes before Zed, the time at which the Operation was due to begin, we set out and made our way across the lake. As we crossed the lake, the bomb aimer looking down vertically, was able to say, ‘Crossing the coast now.’ And I then counted down twelve seconds and after twelve seconds, start releasing our flares. Well, I couldn’t do any more then and I stood up in the astrodome and looked out and watched the flares bursting underneath us and when the fourth flare went, and there was no sign of other flares, they were on our left-hand side, I thought, ‘Oh goodness, have I committed some dreadful boob?’ Because there was terrific responsibility, of course, upon me and the navigator of the other aircraft. But as our fourth flare went down, a line of steerers [?] started appearing about half a mile away on the left-hand side, on our port side, and there was this enormous aircraft hangar clearly illuminated between the two lines of flares. And we were going to drop twelve flares initially and we continued and as we dropped our last flare, and I still couldn’t tell you which happened first, but two things happened, a green target indicator had burst right over the roof of the factory and we were coned in searchlights. Now, coned in searchlights is not a very nice experience I can assure you. We had been coned three or four times before and it seems to take an eternity to get out of this cone, if you’re lucky enough to get out of it. So, eventually we, Jimmy twisted and turned and twisted and turned but we couldn’t seem to shake it off and he turned about and put the nose right down and we dived out over the lake and shook them off. And we were supposed to go back to the lake after we’d finished our first, but we didn’t expect to go back to it like — that method, but there we were circling over the lake and after a few minutes, the Master of Ceremonies as he was called, master bomber, the Group Captain, had called for us to go in and lay a second line of flares and again we were coned but we got out of the cone fairly quickly that time and we had a couple of bombs, the small bombs we were carrying, we dropped those and back out over the lake and after about twenty minutes, the Master of Ceremonies declared that the raid was over and we should make our way to Algiers. He reminded us that we were very close to the Alps so that we should climb hard through the Alps and, ‘See you in Algiers.’ So we climbed hard through the Alps and, which was a lovely experience, I mean, you may well have crossed the Alps in a modern airliner at thirty thousand feet with the lights on, as I have, and looked down and thought, ‘Well. There are the Alps.’ But when you’re only just above the top and there’s no light in the aircraft and the full moon is shining, absolutely lovely. Wonderful experience. I shall remember all my life. We crossed the Italian coast somewhere close to Genoa and then we got down low, down to the sea, to keep beneath the Italian radar in Sardinia or Corsica and made for Algiers. When we got to Algiers, there was a terrific fog and we thought, ‘Well, the sixty aircraft are going to be directed out to sea and the crews are all going to be baled out,’ because you couldn’t see a thing and people were calling up, ‘I’ve only ten minutes petrol left.’ And there were no modern aids there of course. But there was an American flying control officer with enormous initiative and he got on the end of the runway in a jeep and fired Very cartridges up through the mist. And I shall always remember what he shouted, ‘The first man to make home base wins.’ [laughs] A baseball expression I assume. And the sixty aircraft landed with — one of them, there was a dead bomb aimer on board, who’d been hit by flak over the target, one from Woodhall Spa actually with the squadron that had been formed there when we left. And so we had a couple of days in Algiers. A lot of sunshine. Eating some of the fruit that we hadn’t seen for years in England and then on the way back we bombed Spetzia which was a bit of an anti-climax really because the, only two of the Pathfinder aircraft were serviceable. Two of them had to stay and come home more slowly. Ten of the main Force aircraft had been damaged over the target so we dropped our bombs fairly quickly on Spetzia and back to Scampton. It was an anti-climax really after the — and there we are. We flew back to Bourn that evening after sleeping for the day and Bennett was there to meet us, the AOC, and he was absolutely livid. Relations between him and Cochran were notoriously bad. Cochran was the AOC of the Group, Five Group. And he said, ‘It’s nonsense using four aircraft. If one had been shot down or — you should have used twenty.’ And he felt that the Pathfinders had only been used so that they could be blamed if something went wrong. He was not a happy man. And there we are. That was Operation Bellicose. The raid on — The first shuttle service operation. It was thought at the time that it might be followed by quite a few more but it wasn’t because of the difficulty of serving Lancasters in Algiers. You would have needed a whole force of ground crew out there to — So it wasn’t a one-off, it did happen, I think once more, with a very small group of aircraft but didn’t become a habit. Can we stop there again?
PL: Re-starting tape.
AS: The attack on Spezia, on return from Friedrichshafen, was in fact our thirtieth operation which is the end of a tour. And we expected to go off on our three weeks’ Leave. In Pathfinder Force the arrangements were for a tour of operations were a bit different from those in the rest of Bomber Command. In the main Force, you did thirty operations, then you were given a rest which was said to be at least six months. You were probably an instructor at an OTU and then you could go back for a second tour of twenty operations. But in Pathfinder Force, they didn’t see the point in dispersing a crew after thirty operations. Having got an experienced crew together, hopefully a successful crew together, why not keep them together. So after thirty operations, you got three weeks’ Leave and then you came back and did another fifteen. Not twenty. And to recompense you for going straight through, this was then reckoned to be two tours. Anyway we got back from Spetzia, our thirtieth operation, confidently expecting to go on Leave the next day but the pressure was on and the flight commander, Wing Commander Alabaster said, ‘You’ll have to do two more operations before you can go on Leave.’ So we did two more operations. Both to Cologne. And then we drew our railway warrants and ration cards and went off on three weeks’ glorious Leave and got back in time for the Battle of Hamburg. The first raid on, of the big raids on Hamburg had already taken place while we were still on Leave, on the last night of our Leave. And I’d have liked to have been on that one because as you may know, that was the first night that Window was used. These metallic strips that people dropped. Well they were still very effective when we went the next night and the next night. But I’d have liked to have been able to say I was on the first Windows Operation, but I wasn’t. I was on the second. So at the Battle of Hamburg, and a trip to the Ruhr as well, and then — I’ve lost my place in my Log Book but I shall find it in a moment. [a short pause as he turns pages] It was pretty obvious to us that after Hamburg, Butch Harris, the AOC of Bomber Command, would be looking at Berlin as his next main target. And we got to the middle of August, and you could usually get some idea of targets from the bomb load and the petrol load which was published first thing in the morning on the list of crew, the Order of Battle as it was called. And it looked, for all the world, as though it was a suitable bomb and petrol load for Berlin. And we were a bit astounded because it was full moon and at that time, flying far over Germany in the full moon was not very healthy. The German Fighter Force was becoming increasingly skilful and morale dropped a little bit in the squadron at the thought of going to Berlin in the night of the full moon. But there again, there was nothing we could do about it so we went to briefing and there was a red line — at the end of the briefing room there was a great map across the end wall of course, and there was a red tape attached to the map, going well on the way towards Berlin, but not to Berlin itself. And we were eventually told that the target was Peenemünde. No one had ever heard of Peenemünde of course. So briefing continued and we were told that this was a very important German radar research station. Not a word about rockets of course. And we went through all the usual briefing, the Met Officer, the navigation officer on the route, the bombing leader on the bomb load, the signals officer on the signals to be used, so on and — intelligent officer on defences. But there were a number of additional things. We were told that there would be an attack by seven or eight Mosquitoes on Berlin, which would hopefully keep the Fighter Force away from us. We were told that there would be a massive number of night fighters operating over Germany that night. We were told that we’d be dropping our bombs and target indicators not from twenty thousand feet as we usually did but from eight thousand feet and that there would be a master bomber. And this was the first time a master bomber was being used on a really big Operation. Obviously Guy Gibson kept in touch with his nineteen aircraft on the Dams raid and on that Friedrichshafen raid, we had a master bomber, but it was only sixty aircraft. And this was the first time that a really large force of nearly six hundred aircraft had a master bomber who circled the target and explained to the main force, which were the most accurately placed target indicators to aim for. And also, told when the aiming point was to be changed because the aiming point for the first wave, and we were in the first wave, was the dwelling quarters of the scientists and technicians working at Peenemünde and the second wave was the attack on the factory and the third wave was the attack on the experimental station. So we had our briefing and went and had an operational meal and drew parachutes and escape kit and got dressed and out to the aircraft and a chap with the ground crew as usual and we took off at twenty fifty. Ten to nine. Which was Double British Summer Time, so it was still light when we crossed the coast at Southwold. And out across the North Sea. Again, a lovely night. You know the navigator of course worked behind a black-out curtain over his maps and charts but I couldn’t resist popping out frequently to have a look at the sun and the moon as it came up, shimmering on the sea, silver, and there was hardly any wind and it was absolutely beautiful. And there we were going off to deliver bombs to people. It took about an hour and ten minutes to cross the North Sea and as we approached the Danish coast, there was some activity over on our starboard side and searchlights and flak and the searchlights coned an aircraft and eventually the flak got very close and the aircraft burst into flame and flaming bits started dropping into the sea. And I sometimes give lectures on this to groups like Probus and so on and I always say that I ought really to have felt enormous sympathy for that crew and I probably did but foremost in my mind was the thought, ‘What a rotten bit of navigation.’ Because if they were ahead of us, there must have been another Pathfinder crew. In fact there were other Pathfinder crews and yet their navigator had allowed them to wander over Flensburg, the northern-most town in Germany which was very heavily defended. And they’d paid the price for it. However there was nothing we could do about it so we continued on our way. It took about twelve minutes to cross Denmark and then down over the Baltic Sea. Masses of islands of course. Hundreds of islands, so navigation was a very simple matter. As we got close to Peenemünde, I’d given the bomb aimer and the pilot the ETA and there was a shout from the bomb aimer, ‘There’s a smoke screen ahead.’ And so there was. I’d popped out and had a look and there was a smoke screen over, as we thought, right over the target. And so it was. But a smoke screen blows in line and when you’re like my four fingers, and when you’re looking at it from a distance you can’t see, but as you get increasingly over the top, you can see down, so as we got nearer to the target, we could in fact see the target.
PL: So there were gaps in the smoke screen where you could see down.
AS: Yes, yes. Oh yes, yes. They weren’t — The smoke containers which sent the smoke up were spaced across. They couldn’t have them absolutely close together so there were gaps between these lines of smoke, the wind blew the smoke across, but — So there were some TIs already down. The —
PL: TIs?
AS: The master bomber informed us which were the most accurately placed, so we place our TIs and our bomb, one four thousand pounder there. Hopefully over the living quarters of the scientists and technicians. And there was no defences whatsoever. It was probably the easiest trip we did. And on over the target to take our photo. You had to stay straight and level for twenty-five seconds once your bombs had gone so that the photo could be taken. And then we turned away. We didn’t fly exactly back on the same route because of course we’d have been flying on to the incoming aircraft but just south and once again, out over Denmark I made sure that my pilot stayed well clear of Flensburg. Back across the North Sea, dropped down to — we’d climbed after bombing at eight thousand feet. Back down to where we could take off our oxygen masks and have a cup of coffee and the radio officer had got some light music on the wireless and we had our sandwiches and so back to Bourn. And 97 Squadron had sent eighteen aircraft. One of them had returned early with engine trouble, the other seventeen got back. Not a scratch on them. And so, went to the parachute section first thing to — after a word with the ground crew while we were waiting for transport. Get rid of parachute, back to de-briefing and we were all fairly delighted it looked as if it had been a successful Operation. But one of the things we’d been told at briefing, which I should have said before, the very last thing was that it was essential that this Operation should be successful and if it were not successful, we should have to go again the next night and the next night irrespective of casualties. Now, the first night, you can rely on surprise but if you had to go a second or third time, you couldn’t. So that did concentrate the mind a little bit. So, and so to bed. Operational meal, traditional eggs and bacon and so to bed. Now I’ve always been an early waker-up. Quarter past six this morning. Quarter past six virtually every morning. And I was an early waker-up during the war and even if we were not back ‘till three or four o’clock in the morning. Most of the squadron would sleep through ‘till lunchtime. I never once missed my breakfast. I wouldn’t say I was first up in the morning but I was always in the Mess by nine o’clock. I’d get up about eight and have a shower, because you always felt dirty after a night out in a bomber. They were pretty dirty smelly things, these big bombers. And I would go to breakfast and then I would normally sort of spend the morning hanging around waiting for the crew, the rest of the crew to come round. I’d write up my Log Book, I’d catch up with my correspondence, I’d try the crossword in one of the posh papers and I might practice my snooker skills ‘cause there was no one else in the billiard room. And so on. But that morning, I didn’t do any of those things, I walked up to the Intelligence library to have a look at the photographs, to see how successful, with the thought of that threat still hanging over us. And when I got there, I knew of course from what I’d seen the night before, that it was likely to be successful. And so it proved to be but what absolutely astounded me was that we’d lost over forty aircraft. But I didn’t — Apart from the chap that we’d seen chopped out over Flensburg, we didn’t see any sign of any defences. But what had happened of course, that these German fighters had been circling over Berlin and then the attack was on Peenemünde. It’s only about twenty minutes flying from Berlin to Peenemünde, so those fighters which still had enough petrol and many didn’t, many had to land and refuel, but some of them were able to fly up to Peenemünde and they got in the third wave. And the third wave lost about twenty percent of their aircraft. One in five. The second wave was somewhere in between the two. I think they lost about eight or nine percent of their aircraft, but not as bad as the third wave. So Bomber Command did lose a lot of aircraft that night. And, but at least it was successful. We didn’t have to go again. And that was our fortieth Operation, so we had five more to do to finish our tour. It really was Berlin the next two but by that time, the full moon had gone and we did a couple over to Berlin and we went to, I think, to Nuremberg and once to the Ruhr. And then our last trip was coming up. We did our forty-fourth trip on the 31st of August. Our last trip was coming up and we were briefed to go on the 1st of September to Berlin but Operations were cancelled and the same happened on the 2nd we were briefed to go to Berlin and Operations were cancelled. Now the corporal in charge of our ground crew, a young married man, and the ground crew of course, used to work outside in appalling conditions, not in a warm hangar but out at dispersal. And, they, this corporal was due to go on Leave when we got back on the 2nd after our final Operation, but it was cancelled on the 1st, he wouldn’t go on Leave. When it happened again on the 2nd he wouldn’t go on Leave. He insisted on staying until we had completed our forty-fifth Operation. Well, on September the 3rd, that morning, the invasion of the mainland of Italy started. And we thought, ‘Oh. It would be a nice cushy trip to Milan or Turin for our final Operation,’ because they were really a long way but they were fairly cushy targets. The Italian defences weren’t very wonderful. And. But it wasn’t. We didn’t know of course, but apparently an agreement had already been made with the Italian government that the Italians would surrender and we would stop bombing their major cities. It was Berlin again, by a long route back over Sweden again. Over neutral territory. And we got back and that was our forty-fifth Operation. And most of us decided that, that was enough, but unfortunately Jimmy and two of the gunners stayed with him and it wasn’t. And so there we are. That’s the end of my life in Bomber Command.
PL: That is absolutely wonderful. Thank you very much indeed. Can I just ask you a couple of other things?
AS: Um hum.
PL: The first. So what did you do, so after the war, what did you go on to do then, after you left Bomber Command?
AS: Well, as I said, Bomber Command was equipped with the state of the art radar. And just after I finished Operations, and I mention the fact that Africa had now been cleared of the Germans, and if one listened to the news during ’42, ’43, you heard about a Bomber Force from the Middle East attacking Tobruk, and Benghazi, and it was pretty obvious that when airfields became available, these aircraft would move over to Italy. And, an advert, it wasn’t phrased as an advert, a notice appeared in Daily Routine Orders, asking for someone to instruct in this state of the art radar overseas. Now it didn’t state where overseas, but one didn’t need to be a genius to realise it was going to be the Mediterranean theatre and that these aircraft — so I thought, ‘Well that sounds interesting.’ And I’d only recently been Commissioned. I was a Pilot Officer and it was advertised as a Flight Lieutenant vacancy so I thought, ‘Well, have ago at this.’ And I applied and after the usual air force delay, I found I was accepted and I went home to Southampton on a week’s Embarkation Leave and when I got back, the squadron were kind enough to divert an aircraft, ‘cause I had to go to Blackpool which was the Embarkation Centre, they diverted across country to take me up to Blackpool, which would have saved a nasty train journey. And, I, eventually, we were kitted out for overseas there and had various inoculations and so on, after about a fortnight in Blackpool, up to Liverpool early one morning to get aboard a troop ship which went a long way out into the Atlantic to avoid the — ‘cause the Germans were still in France of course and they had aircraft operating from the south of France against convoys, but we didn’t see any sign of them and back into the Mediterranean and we docked in Algiers and I was in a transit camp there for two or three days and then down to Tunis which was Headquarters of the Mediterranean Allied Air Forces. And there, a Wing Commander looked after me and told me what I was going to do. And apart from the six Wellington squadrons they had, they had one Liberator squadron which was a South African squadron and a Halifax squadron and the Halifax squadron was going to be equipped with the same sort of apparatus that we had in Pathfinder Force and act as what they were going to call a Target Marking Force once they’d got across to Italy. Now that squadron was still in, in the desert, so after spending Christmas at, at Tunis, the Wing Commander and a mate of his, they found out that my French was pretty good so they took me down to Bône market, hoping to get some turkeys for Christmas, for the Mess. But, at the government’s expense, we flew this aircraft down to Bône but went to the market but there were no turkeys. We found a bag of fresh carrots. And I suppose fresh vegetables were something of a relief to people who were living on rations. And we took those back. They were gratefully accepted. And I remember on Christmas Day, I went for a swim in the Mediterranean with a WAAF officer. It was pretty cold, but we wanted to say we’d swum on Christmas Day and we also went and found the amphitheatre at Carthage which is very close to Tunis and I knew a little bit about the Punic wars and so on. So we went and explored Carthage, the amphitheatre at Carthage. And a few days after Christmas, before the New Year, I went down to join this Halifax squadron in the desert, at El Adem, just outside of Tobruk and they were merely sort of kicking their heels really because, waiting to go across to Italy. They would occasionally operate against Crete port installations where the Germans were still in Occupation of Crete. But they weren’t doing very much and I couldn’t do very much with them at that stage, ‘cause they didn’t have any equipment of course. I talked to them, but not very much. Eventually the ground crew all went off, back to the Delta, to go by ship across to Italy and we were left for a week. More or less living on our own devices with no ground crew and the CO, the Wing Commander didn’t have a crew so I was crewed up with him as a navigator and flew across to Italy and the night before we went, we even took the tents down and slept under the wing of the Halifax for the night and the Khamsin was blowing at the time so there was sand everywhere and during that week, a dirty old Arab who used to appear on a donkey which was much too small for him, and he’d have a bucket of eggs, tiny little eggs, but he would barter a half a dozen eggs for a cupful of sugar, so at least you could get a few eggs to fry. And. Anyway we flew over to Italy. All the airfields literally were around Foggia, that area which — [pause as he turns pages] This area around here, it’s, in fact, you’ve got the Apennines running up the middle and a few airfields there but there’s a lot of hills that side of Italy, of course but there were masses of airfields round there and we flew to one of those called Celone and eventually the squadron was equipped with the apparatus so that I got on with my work but eventually I was posted away from the squadron, back to the Group Headquarters because my responsibilities were to the whole Group, not to that squadron. And I decided that having read my Siegfried Sassoon about ‘scarlet Majors at the Base’ ‘And when the war was done, and the youth stone dead, he’d toddle safely home and die - in bed’ and you know, the Hotspur’s criticism of a staff officer assented popinjay in Henry 1V and I decided I ought to do a few Operations. Bennett had insisted on his Staff Operations operating occasionally. In fact on one night, two staff officers turned up and went with the same crew. Much to my surprise. And they went with a pilot with whom I’d done a training exercise once and frankly I wouldn’t have wanted to fly with him on Operations and neither of them came back. The whole crew went missing. Anyway, I felt as staff officer, I would set a good example by going occasionally. And a very interesting Op came up. I used to go to the meeting of the — air staff meeting every morning and there was a guard’s officer there who was responsible for liaison with the Resistance. And he came one morning and said that the Resistance in southern France were going to mount an attack on a German airfield and they would welcome a diversion by an attack on the airfield that night and I thought, ‘That sounds interesting. So. I’ll go along.’ And I went along with this Target Marking Force and dropped flares over this and there were obviously things happening on the ground and this was just before the invasion, so, as a result of that, the French gave me a Légion d’Honneur. [laughs] Which I’ll come back to in a moment. And I did two more with the Target Marking Force and two more in the Wellingtons because the Wellingtons increasingly were, as the Germans withdrew, were being used for supply-dropping over Yugoslavia and so I did a daylight with the Wellingtons over Yugoslavia, dropping supplies to what appeared to be a crowd of bandits in the hills above Sarajevo, who waved enthusiastically to us as the parachutes dropped down. And then a night one, dropped on a big cross, up in the hills behind Trieste and so that was quite interesting really. And eventually after about a year, the air force decided my, I’d done enough, that people were now fully trained and so they sent me home and I thought they’d forgotten about me. They sent me on Leave when I got home. I was on Leave for about five or six weeks. And of course the air force never really forget about you. I eventually got a telegraph to report to such and such a Wing Commander at Astral House, London and I went up and he said, ‘Well what do you want to do now?’ Which surprised me a bit because in the forces, they usually tell you what you’re going to do. [laughs] You know, I must have looked a bit perplexed, so he said, ‘How do you fancy going to Transport Command?’ And I said, ‘Alright. It’s a flying job?’ ‘Yes.’ So I went to Transport Command and flew Dakotas from Croydon to the continental capitals of liberated Europe. And during the Transport Command Training, one had been given the opportunity to get a Civil Air Navigator’s Licence. You had to get a certain percentage of the exams and you had to take an extra paper in Civil Aviation in the war but I did that and got mine. So just after Christmas ’46, there was an advert, again not really an advert, a notice in DRO saying that BOAC were again recruiting navigators. Anyone interested give their name to the Adjunct So I thought, ‘Well this is a good opportunity.’ And so I went off to BOAC. Everyone — there were an enormous number of people of course joining BOAC from the air force at the time and we all came to Whitchurch, just outside of Bristol to their Civil Training School and after a few weeks there, I was, a month, six weeks, I was posted to the flying boats at Poole Harbour. So I could live at home in Southampton and flying to Singapore and back. To Singapore and back took eighteen days for the crew in those days. Took five days for the passengers. No, three days to Singapore and five days to Australia. It was a different world. I sometimes, again, lecture to groups like Probus and Rotary about it because Civil Aviation was so different in those days. So there we are. End of story. Any questions? [laughs]
PL: Many, many questions. So, so then once, so that’s, that’s basically what you did then, you were in Civil, Civil Aviation for a few years.
AS: For eighteen months, yes.
PL: For eighteen months. And then — So how did you get into teaching?
AS: Well, I — in fact I had a place at Southampton University before the war and I didn’t take it up, but I went to a Training College because I wanted to get through fairly quickly. And the Training College in Winchester was giving a shortened course of eighteen months so I didn’t do what they called the Emergency Teacher’s Certificate of a year, but I did eighteen months and I was then qualified a teacher. And the school where I did my final Teaching Practice, the Head offered me a job. So. Which was just outside of Southampton and so I was with him for about seven years and then I came to a more senior post in Bristol. Bristol was one the earliest Authorities to go Comprehensive and then I got a Deputy Headship at the Thornbury. Which is ten miles north of Bristol. Quaint old town. And quite a long time as Deputy Head and I was, someone hinted to me that I ought to apply for this new school at Weston-Super-Mare and —
PL: Which is called —
AS: Priory School. You may have passed it.
PL: And that was a ground-breaking new school.
AS: Oh yeah. You may have passed it, if you came round the Bay, when you turned off the motorway, did you turn right by the Magistrates Court?
PL: I can’t remember.
AS: Almost immediately — or did you come right through — no, you didn’t come right through—
PL: I hugged the — I went on a windy road hugging the, the coast.
AS: Around the coast? Well, you almost certainly passed Priory School. Did you pass Sainsbury’s?
PL: Yes.
AS: Well it’s opposite Sainsbury’s. That’s Priory School, where they’ve just acquired two and a half million pounds to build a new science block and who have they invited to open it? [laughs] And what are they going to call it? The Spencer Science Centre. And the teachers who were trying to teach me science in the 1930s would turn in their graves at the thought of a science centre being named after me.
PL: Well, congratulations. What an accolade.
AS: Well, it’s rather nice isn’t it.
PL: It is. And your — ‘cause I think this is important as part of your story to include. So your school and your experience was used as a case study by the Open University.
AS: Yes. Shall I get the book and show you?
PL: I would love to see the book. Wait one minute though.
AS: Yes.
PL: I just want to, just to sort of wrap up the interview. There’s two questions I want to ask you. The first is, how your family fared during the war. I was interested to hear you say that they were based in Southampton.
AS: Yes.
PL: So did they — everybody stayed in Southampton did they, because —
AS: Yes. I think — The bombing raids on Southampton occurred just after I had left to join the Air Force. Well, there were several daylight raids but the night raids, the big night raids were just after. And after the first one, my father who was working there, continued there but he sent my mother up to Salisbury where we had — which is where I was born. Where we still had relatives. So she was there only during the first one. By the time I was coming home on Leave of course, they were both back in Southampton because the bombing raids were over. One of the things I noticed with my father, who was not a particularly demonstrative person, did come down to the station and see me off each time I went back from Leave and I’ve thought about that quite lot since then.
PL: Very touching.
AS: I didn’t have any brothers or sisters. I was a spoilt only child. [laughs]
PL: They must have been incredibly proud of you. So my last question, which is a question that we’re asked to ask all of our veterans and our volunteers who speak to us is, your feelings about how Bomber Command were treated after the war. Would you like to make any comments about it.
AS: I was a bit surprised that when most of the Great War leaders were made Peers, Harris was not made a Peer. It didn’t worry me a great deal that there wasn’t a memorial. After all, a memorial is only a piece of stone or something with a list of names on. Part of the past. You know that was my only surprise really, that Harris was, didn’t receive the accolade that the other war leaders, Montgomery and so on received. But, Dresden of course, was held against Bomber Command but there was a lot of industry going on in Dresden. There’s a book by an academic at Exeter University, about Dresden, I think it’s out on loan to someone at the moment, but there’s a lot in there about all the industries going on at Dresden at the time. There we are.
PL: Well is there anything else, before we finish, that you’d like to record? About any of your experiences.
AS: No. I probably forgot one or two things on the way through but — [laughs]
PL: I’m sure it doesn’t matter. Well, I’d just like to say again a huge thank-you. That was an absolutely fascinating interview. Thank you very much indeed.
AS: Tell my wife that when she comes. [laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Arthur Spencer
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASpencerAHG170227
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pam Locker
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-27
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:11:54 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Spencer joined the Royal Air Force after leaving school. He began pilot training in Florida but then re-mustered as a navigator and trained in Pensacola. He completed two tours of operations as a navigator with 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa and RAF Bourn. He later became 205 Group's Navigation Officer. He describes dropping target indicators and Window. He was based in Algiers for some time and describes life there. He was awarded the Légion d’Honneur for providing air support for the Resistance in Italy. After the war, he worked for BOAC and then as a teacher.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Algeria
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
United States
Algeria--Algiers
England--Lincolnshire
Florida--Miami
Florida--Pensacola
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Sarajevo
Italy--Trieste
North Africa
Florida
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathy Brearley
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
16 OTU
97 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
C-47
crewing up
ground crew
Master Bomber
military ethos
mine laying
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Bourn
RAF Scampton
RAF Swinderby
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Woodhall Spa
Resistance
searchlight
target indicator
training
Ventura
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1067/11523/APearsonBM180312.1.mp3
f54de849aa13ddb751063f82b77dc740
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pearson, Betty May
B M Pearson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Betty Pearson (b. 1928) She lived in Lincoln and discusses her brother-in-law William Mollison Walton
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pearson, BM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: This interview is being conducted on the behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Mike Connock and the interviewee is Betty Pearson. The interview is taking place at Betty Pearson’s home in Lincoln on Monday the 12th of March 2018. Also in attendance is son Stuart Pearson and —
GW: Gillian.
MC: And Gillian.
GW: Watkin.
MC: Watkin. Ok, Betty. Thank you for doing this interview. Just, just as a start just tell me a bit about where you were born and where —
BP: I was born in Bracebridge.
MC: Oh, so you are a local lass.
BP: Yeah.
MC: When was that?
BP: 1928.
MC: 1928.
BP: Yeah.
MC: So, tell me about who you want to talk about today.
BP: My brother in law.
MC: Your brother in law.
BP: Bill Walton as I knew him. William.
MC: William.
BP: William Walton.
MC: William Walton.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. And how did you come to meet him?
BP: Well, we used to go, my sister and I used to go to North Hykeham dance. A village dance every Saturday night and Bill was at the RAF Swinderby finishing his training I think and he used to come with his friends to the dance, to the Hykeham dance and that’s how they met. I was allowed to go. I was six years younger than my sister. I was allowed to go if I stayed in her company. But I knew they didn’t want me there so [laughs] I used to, I made my own friends unbeknown to my sister.
MC: So, what do you know about Bill?
BP: Well, I knew he was Scottish and he lived just outside Perth and they got on very well together.
MC: Where was he born? Do you know?
BP: I don’t know but it was in Scotland of course.
MC: Yes.
BP: I think probably in the Perth area, because his parents were farmers.
MC: How old was he when he joined the RAF? Do you know?
BP: Oh, I think he was about nineteen. He was a pilot when he was nineteen.
MC: Really? You don’t know where he did his training?
BP: At Swinderby.
MC: Oh, yeah he was at Swinderby.
BP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: At the time, yeah.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah. So when did, did you follow him through his career? Did, you know, were you aware where he went? What squadron he went to.
BP: No. I don’t know the, I think Stuart’s got all that business down, haven’t you? The squad, squadron number and everything.
MC: So, tell me your story about, about Bill. What do you know about him?
BP: Well, I know that they were courting for quite a while and he was often on duty flying his plane and she used to see him when he wasn’t flying of course. And then we moved from North Hykeham, my parents and my sister and I to an off licence in Bracebridge and I think I was fifteen. I knew I wasn’t allowed to serve beer so I couldn’t have been sixteen but I could eat sweets and chocolate, and I used to test the beer out of the pump. My dad used to say, ‘Have you been at this beer?’ ‘Well, I’ve got to see it’s alright, dad.’ [laughs] So, that was, that was the off licence. We were there quite a while before all this flying business happened. And of course sweets were on coupons in those days and the kiddies all used to come in with their ration books and I used to be able to cut the points out, and serve them the sweets and I enjoyed doing that. It was lovely. And then one day it was the beginning of the sweet coupons and the shop was absolutely packed out and there I was serving sweets. Didn’t look up. I hadn’t got time to look up until the shop was empty and when I did look up there was this airman in a mucky old battledress just inside the door. I didn’t recognise him he was so dirty. But then I realised who it was. Unfortunately, my sister wasn’t there. She was at the pictures with mum. So they had a bit of a shock when they came home. You can imagine.
MC: So was that when he came back from —
BP: Yes, after having been missing.
MC: So how did you, how did your sister find out about him going missing?
BP: Well, they were engaged to be married, and they were due to be married in about six weeks time. And I think they informed her. Well, they would do wouldn’t they? That he was gone missing.
MC: And he just turned up at the door.
BP: He just turned up. Yeah.
MC: So, I mean, do you know any of the, how he evaded or what happened, you know, to him?
BP: Stuart’s got all that information.
SP: The actual type written copy.
MC: You’ve got a copy of the —
SP: I had it from the War Office.
MC: From the, his escape report. Yeah.
SP: Yeah, but this is, this is the word equivalent of it.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SP: This is exactly what he wrote. Do you want me to read it out?
MC: Yeah. You can do. Yeah.
SP: Right. “Flight Lieutenant William Mollison Walton DFC. 97 Squadron, Bomber Command, RAF.” And this is the gist of the message. “We took off from Coningsby at 20.50 hours on the 24th of June 1944 to bomb flying bomb bases in the Pas de Calais area. We were attacked by a fighter at a point south of Etaples. I baled out during the night 24th 25th of June and landed at Brimeux.” He gives a map reference then. “In a lake approximately one hundred yards square, in the middle of which there was a small island. I made my way to the island and was obliged to stay there in hiding for two days because of German activity in the area. I believe the Germans were searching for my crew and myself. During the morning of the 27th of June I left my hiding place after having disposed of my parachute and Mae West and made my way southwest around the village of Beaurainville where I hid in a wood for the remainder of the day. The wood was close to a farm which I kept under observation with a view to obtaining help when it became dark. I approached the house at night and was immediately taken inside. I remained here until the 25th of August. Ten days after my arrival I was visited by the chief of the Resistance organisation at Hesdin. On the 25th of August I was moved to an address in Hesdin and remained there until I contacted British troops on the 3rd of September. My flight engineer, Flight Sergeant Mayhew was killed when the parachute failed to open and was buried by the French at Marles Sur Canche.” And that, that’s his report basically. Three days after he was, he was found by the British troops, so I would presume when he got back to this country.
MC: So, Betty how, how long would from when he went missing to when he came back was it that, so your sister was unaware what happened to him.
BP: I think it was about six weeks.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
BP: I can’t remember dead accurately but it was about six weeks.
MC: So, it must have been a worrying time then.
BP: It was. Yeah. Everything was ready for the wedding.
MC: Yeah. Yeah.
BP: The wedding dress on the back of the bedroom door. The cake was made already. So my sister and my mother and myself went up to Perth to spend a week with his parents. That’s when we met the fortune teller in Perth, Market Square and she was dead accurate. She really was.
MC: So did, did [pause] so when he came back so that they obviously, obviously got married.
BP: Oh yes.
MC: Was that fairly quickly?
BP: Then he was stationed at all sorts of different places, in the New Forest and Malvern.
MC: And she moved around with him.
BP: Of course. They got married and then —
MC: Yeah.
BP: The two went all over.
MC: Did he relate any of his other stories of his operations?
BP: No. No.
MC: No. No. No.
BP: No. Didn’t speak, well not to me anyway. Might have done to my sister. I forgot to mention that the fortune, the fortune teller said that he’d got a bandage around his head and he would come back. And she said to him, she said to my sister, ‘You were about to get married but you will do but not just yet.’ And the bandage was around his head when he, when he was found. Yeah. He had got injured around, just around there. As he came down I suppose.
MC: Was he in good spirits when he came back? Was he? I mean, obviously he must have been to get, to get back from evading.
BP: Yeah.
BP: I don’t know who brought him back. It’s not in your report is it?
HW: No.
BP: So, how he got back over the Channel, I assume somebody must have brought him over.
MC: What, what year was that? Can you remember? [pause] 1944, is that right?
BP: I would think about that time.
MC: Yeah. Yeah. Did you say that it said —
SP: Just after D-Day.
MC: Yeah. It’s alright. You can come in. You’re alright.
SP: Yeah. Just after D-Day.
MC: Yeah.
SP: So obviously he introduced himself to the British troops who were invading Normandy.
MC: Yeah. So what raid was he on? Do we see?
SP: It was a raid to a place called Prouville, which was a big —
MC: Oh, Prouville. Yeah. Yeah.
SP: V-1 flying base.
MC: Yeah. That would have been supporting the D-Day invasion.
SP: Yeah.
MC: I should think. Yeah. Yeah.
SP: Shot down by a night fighter.
MC: What else can you remember, Betty?
BP: Not a lot really except the wedding when we, if there’s anything on there that I haven’t told you about [pause] When he left the RAF he joined the civil aviation. Most of that was spent in Scotland somewhere.
MC: Do you know where he did his flying training?
BP: Yeah. Swinderby.
MC: Oh, I don’t think he would have. He was a pilot, wasn’t he?
BP: Oh yes.
MC: Yeah.
BP: And then he went to East Kirkby didn’t he Stuart?
MC: Yeah. So he —
BP: Yeah.
MC: He could well have done his flying training in Canada.
SP: Do you know, I —
BP: He did. He did. He did some in Canada, yeah. I remember now.
MC: He did. Yeah. Yeah.
SP: I remember you telling me that.
MC: Yeah.
BP: I’ve got here that he was training for his, to be a pilot at aged nineteen to twenty.
SP: He, he did get a —
[recording paused]
MC: He got the DFC. We do know.
SP: He did, yeah.
BP: Yeah. Yeah, he had to —
[recording paused]
MC: You have a read of it. Just read a bit out. Fill it in as you feel like —
BP: When I first met Bill it was North Hykeham village dance when he met my sister, Doreen. He was stationed at Swinderby, completing his training for a pilot and was aged only nineteen to twenty. He was a regular visitor to our home in North Hykeham, and they eventually became engaged. He moved stations. RAF, in brackets, and soon became a pilot and flew over Germany and later completed two tours and was promoted to flight lieutenant. My family and myself moved to an off licence in Lincoln, and their marriage was arranged. The wedding dress hung on the back of the bedroom door and the cake was made. Within six weeks of the wedding Bill was reported missing. My mother, myself and Doreen went up to Scotland to stay with his family for a week, and went one day to Perth to have a look around [cough] Excuse me. We saw a sign for a fortune teller. Doreen removed her RAF brooch and went inside. The information the lady gave her was very, was unbelievable, ‘You were going to get married weren’t you?’ She said, ‘Well, you still will. He will come back and has a bandage on his head because he landed in a tree.’ And I don’t know whether that was true, that bit. He was on an island. There may have been a tree. I don’t know. We went back to Lincoln and I helped in the shop. Doreen went back to work. I was serving sweets when the, in the shop when one Sunday, too busy to look up, the shop was full of people cashing in their sweet coupons. Sweets of course were rationed and it was the start of the month so the children all came in to spend their points. When the shop was empty, about fifteen minutes, I looked up, and there was a scruffy man in a scruffy RAF battle dress inside the door. Of course, it was Bill and I told him mum and Doreen were at the pictures. The reunion took place an hour later and the wedding a few weeks later, and that was it.
MC: But yourself you actually grew up during the war then.
BP: Oh yes.
MC: Yeah. So what do you remember about the area around Lincoln? There must have been a —
BP: Oh, well we lived at Hykeham and I used to cycle sixteen miles a day to work at the GPO, Guildhall Street when I was fourteen. Four miles there. Four back at lunchtime. Back again in the afternoon and four back. Sixteen miles a day. And I remember one day I cycled to work and there was a policeman on duty at the Stonebow as there was in those days and he stopped me. He said, ‘Sorry miss. You can’t go any further. There’s a bomb down there.’ I said, ‘Well, I’m sorry,’ I said, ‘But I’ve got to be at work at 8 o’clock.’ ‘Oh, alright then. Go on.’ They let me go down Mint Street. Where the bomb was I’ve no idea but I went to work. That was it.
MC: So there must have been a lot of airmen around in those days. There were a lot of —
BP: Oh, there was. All over the place. Yeah.
MC: Can you remember seeing the aircraft in the air?
BP: No. It wasn’t so much that, no. But I know one day when we were still at Hykeham, there was a bomber came over and we could recognise it by the sound of the engines. My dad had built a shelter in the garden and we all trooped down there when the siren went. One of the neighbours who was a gentleman of about seventy, he used to bring his knitting in. He used to do his knitting in the shelter. And the bomb dropped just over the road from where we lived funnily enough the [pause] there’s a crater in the field opposite and my sister thought it was her fault because she opened the door at the wrong time and the light came on. But that’s the main thing I can remember about the war really.
MC: So, what did your dad do during the war?
BP: My dad, he worked at Rustons. He was just in between those ages where he was too old to join up. He was too young in the First World War, too old in the Second. So he never went in the Forces but it was a good, you know it was a wartime job if you like he did at Rustons.
MC: And did you have any siblings? Any brothers and sisters?
BP: Only my sister, Doreen.
MC: Yeah.
BP: So —
MC: She’s the, she’s the one that married Bill.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah, obviously. Yeah.
BP: Yeah.
MC: What did they do after the war? Did they stay in Lincoln? They got up to Scotland or what?
BP: Well —
MC: You said he joined the civil airlines.
BP: When he left the RAF he did. Yeah. He was in the RAF for quite a while after that and then he joined the civil aviation.
SP: Air traffic control.
BP: Yes. Yeah. Traffic. Yeah.
MC: Oh, he was air traffic control. Oh right.
BP: And then he went to, he was at Dyce, Aberdeenshire and —
GW: Prestwick.
BP: And Prestwick, yeah. They lived at Ayr when he was at Prestwick. And he was in the New Forest as well. That was nice.
MC: Certainly moved around from one end of the country to the other.
BP: They did. Malvern. He was at Malvern. Yeah.
MC: So were they good days in Lincoln in those, in that period when you —
BP: Oh we all enjoyed it, you know. They call it the good old days didn’t they? It wasn’t of course but remember I was only fifteen so I was allowed to do more than if it had been, you know, ordinary times I think.
MC: Let’s just. I mean I think we talked about his squadron. He was in ’97.
SP: 97 Strait Settlement Squadron.
MC: Strait Settlement, that was right.
SP: Yeah. Yeah.
MC: I thought they were Pathfinders.
SP: He ended, I think he ended up as a Pathfinder.
MC: Yeah.
SP: I believe so.
BP: He did, yeah. He did. Yeah.
MC: With, yeah do you know if he went to any other squadrons?
SP: I don’t to be honest.
MC: No.
SP: His daughter might be able to help on that one. She’s got some information.
MC: Does, does she still have his logbook and stuff like that?
BP: Yeah. They have got his flying logbook but there’s very little information in it strangely enough about the crash. About when the aircraft was shot down. I have got that. I can, I can dig that out.
[recording paused]
MC: You say she’s got an original letter from the French family.
SP: Yeah, from the French family and she’s had problems getting it translated. I don’t know whether that would be of any use to you.
MC: Absolutely, yeah.
BP: I mean the uni could translate that surely.
MC: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. No. It’s, it’s very good because that’s the sort of thing that the archives need.
BP: Yeah.
[recording paused]
MC: So did, were you old enough to go to the dances in them days?
BP: My goodness me, yes. I was only allowed to go if I stayed with my sister.
MC: With your sister, you said. Yeah
BP: She was six years older than me you see.
MC: And how old were you?
BP: When I started to go to the dance, and put my lipstick on when I got outside.
SP: When you got outside.
BP: I’d be about fourteen I should think.
MC: Fourteen. Yeah.
BP: Yeah. And I probably looked a little bit older. I used to get plenty of dance partners.
SP: Yeah. I bet you did.
MC: Yeah.
BP: That’s where I learned to dance.
MC: Yeah.
BP: North Hykeham Parish Hall.
MC: Yeah, a lot, were there a lot of RAF boys at the —
BP: Oh, God. Yes.
MC: They were all RAF boys at the dances.
BP: Plenty of partners, and the local lads didn’t like that much at all.
MC: No.
SP: Yeah.
MC: Where did you have the dances did you say?
BP: North Hykeham.
MC: Oh, North Hykeham.
BP: There’s a church hall just near the church there.
MC: Oh, the church hall. Oh right. Yeah. So where did the lads, the RAF lads come from? Do you know which stations?
BP: Swinderby.
MC: Mainly Swinderby.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Yeah.
SP: Yeah. He did learn to fly in Canada because I remember you telling me that. I think he probably told me as well.
BP: Yeah.
SP: Learning to fly in Canada. But, yeah I can, I can well his son was the same age as me and I can’t remember my Uncle Bill talking about the war at all.
BP: No.
SP: Did he —
BP: No. No.
SP: He did, I think he did recall an incident where they were taking off and a Lancaster flying in front of his exploded, you know. Faulty bomb and the whole thing went up. I remember that.
BP: I can remember you telling me that. So he must have told you.
SP: Well, either me directly or dad.
BP: Yeah. Yeah.
SP: It might have been dad. I do remember that so —
[recording paused]
MC: Yeah. I mean you say about the, you know it being too late and yeah, and the politics, yeah.
SP: Yeah. It beggars belief it’s taken that long. The rate of attrition amongst bomber crew was, well as you know was huge wasn’t it?
MC: And you talked about Coventry.
SP: The apologists for Dresden I think had an influence on the decision not to commemorate Bomber Command’s exploits, but I think if we had a conversation with the relatives of the Mayor of Coventry at the time, he might have something to say about that. So whether politics has played the major part in this delay I don’t know but I think the Centre’s an amazing building. I love the way it’s so interactive, and I think that will help a lot of the younger people get a grasp of what they actually went through in the war because they live in the IT age and it’s very technically advanced isn’t it, the information?
[recording paused]
MC: So, I gather Bill is obviously no longer still alive.
BP: Oh, no. He died when he was about sixty two.
MC: Sixty two.
BP: Yeah.
MC: He wasn’t very old then.
BP: Cancer. No. And my sister as well. She was sixty two. They both died.
MC: Oh really. Both died at sixty two.
BP: Yeah.
MC: Oh, goodness me. Yeah.
BP: Well, Doreen was six months older than Bill and she died six months after Bill had died so they were the same age more or less.
SP: Are we —
[recording paused]
MC: So, when are you actually he was obviously brought back through the lines by the French.
SP: Yeah.
MC: And then he —
SP: I’ll just —
MC: And then he tied up with the British troops did he?
SP: Yeah. I’ll just re-read this. These are his exact words.
MC: Is that what you read before?
SP: Yeah. The document says, “Secret,” at the top of it but I don’t think that applies anymore, do you? For a while I did wonder about that because being an ex-copper, signing the Official Secrets Act I thought maybe I shouldn’t be doing this but God, it was 1944. “On the 25th of August I was moved to an address in Hesdin and remained there until I contacted British troops on the 3rd of September.
MC: Oh. So he contacted the British troops.
[recording paused]
MC: Right, it’s just to say thank you Betty. Anyway, thank you for the interview, and to you, Stuart.
SP: No problem.
MC: Much appreciated, and we’ll, we’ll get this on file. Thank you very much to both of you.
BP: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Betty May Pearson
William Mollison Walton
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APearsonBM180312
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:22:31 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
France
France--Hesdin
Description
An account of the resource
Her brother-in-law William Mollison Walton, after training to be a pilot in Canada, was based at RAF Swinderby with 97 Squadron. In 1944 his aircraft was attacked and he baled out. He spent two days on a small island where he buried his parachute, He was eventually being taken in by a French family. William was visited by the chief of the resistance organisation and was taken to Hesdin where he remained until British troops helped him back home. William ended up as a Pathfinder.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-24
1944-06-25
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
97 Squadron
bale out
bombing
bombing of the Pas de Calais V-1 sites (24/25 June 1944)
evading
home front
love and romance
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
RAF Swinderby
Resistance
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/115/3594/ABaileyHH160501.1.mp3
c187bc9461210d109c6c12f4c52d0e9e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bailey, Harold H
H H Bailey
Bill Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of an oral history interview with Harold Hubert 'Bill' Bailey (b. 1925, 2221922 Royal Air Force) and eight photographs.
Bill Bailey completed 37 operations as a rear gunner with 31 Squadron, South African Air Force as part of 205 Group. He flew from Egypt, Palestine and Italy and took part in supply drops to partisan groups in Italy and Yugoslavia.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bill Bailey and catalogued by IBCC staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-01
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bailey, HH
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: Right. This is Gary Rushbrook with Warrant Officer Bill Bailey on the 1st of May and we are at Bill’s house near Nottingham and I’ll hand you over to Bill who will tell us a little bit about his early life.
HHB: Right. Well, I was born in Stafford in 1925. 21st of January. And er we moved around different houses there.
GR: Brothers and sisters?
HHB: I had a brother. He was three years older than me. Mum and dad were, father was in the First World War but he came through it all right.
GR: Yeah. What was he in? Was he in the army?
HHB: He was in the royal artillery, yes.
GR: Royal artillery. Yeah.
HHB: And so I went to school there but unfortunately when I was about six or seven mother and father split up so just left there me, my dad and my brother and he worked at a local electricity works
GR: Right.
HHB: Doing general maintenance work, I think. Anyway, when I got to about nine he got offered a job and a house in Stoke on Trent. Shelton, Stoke on Trent so we moved there, and he went to do metre reading so of course I went to school then at Cauldon Road School in, in Shelton till I was just over fourteen. Course being fourteen in the January just over the Christmas period I had to go to the Easter to leave. So, whenever I was off school I always used to go back to Stafford to an aunt and uncle of mine. So, when they knew I was leaving school, unbeknown to me, they applied for a job at the Stafford Post Office as a telegram boy and the next thing I know was I got a letter, ‘You’re starting work on Monday.’ I left on the Friday and started work on Monday at Stafford, you know, as a telegram boy. I’d not even had an interview so I wonder -
GR: So you had two days at the weekend from school to going to work.
HHB: Yeah. I think there was a bit of something going there ‘cause I’d got an uncle who worked there at the Stafford Post Office. He was a supervisor there so I don’t know whether he pulled any strings. I don’t know but I never had an interview. So on the day I had to report I reported there and I saw the head postmaster. I think his name was Adams. Had a chat and out I went to, in to a room where all the other telegram boys were. They were five of us and our names all began with B. Bailey, Buckshaw, Buck, Beaver and Blakeman all began with B and of course the five Bees. So anyway I went out with one of the boys to get the hang of what you did and then I had to go and report to be measured for a uniform which was a few weeks coming but anyway eventually I got that. And so I stayed there until I was about just over sixteen, seventeen and then I got the option then of either going in to the, as a postman, the postal side or the engineering side.
GR: I presume war had already broken out by then.
HHB: Yeah, war had broke out -
GR: Yeah,
HHB: September 3rd. Yes. I’d been at work since April. So, yeah so I was there as I say seventeen and then I went on the telecoms side, Post Office telephones, as an apprentice, two year apprentice. So, of course time went on. It was five year, five year apprentice sorry. I er of course by this time all my friends who had gone on the postal side had been called up. Unfortunately, or fortunately whichever the case you look at it I was classed as a reserved occupation. Course with telecoms which in them days was probably more important than what it is now.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, I did one or two courses. Went to in Birmingham and that was there once when they had a bit of a raid. Fortunately, it wasn’t in the part I was on. And I got a bit, thought I wish I’d, wanted to join the air force when I left school. I remember the woodwork teacher saying what are you going to do? I said I’d like to go in the air force and that was in 1939. Anyway, so I saw this advert in the paper air gunners said they wanted. It was only a very little slip so I cut it out, didn’t tell anybody, filled it in and posted it off. Course I was still living with my aunt and uncle then in Stafford and, and out of the blue I get a letter back to go to Birmingham Air Crew Attestation Centre, ACAC, on such and such a date for three or four days for interview and tests.
GR: So, you actually filled in a form that was in the paper.
HHB: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: To join up.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Incredible.
HHB: It was only a little thing.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A big, “Join the Air Force” and this little thing. Anyway, I went there and we had various tests, eye tests.
GR: I’m just going to pause it for one minute.
HHB: Yeah. Right. So I went to the Air Crew Attestation Centre at Birmingham and had fitness tests and general knowledge test and eyesight test and goodness knows what and then I had to [parade eventually in front of I don’t know what rank they were now, got quite a number of rings on their sleeves, ‘Why do you want to be an air gunner?’ Blah blah. ‘I don’t know why. Because I want to be,’ you know. ‘What’s your parents say?’ Well I hadn’t told my dad. I hadn’t told my auntie. So I said, ‘Well they don’t mind.’ ‘What about your employer?’ That was the post office telephones. ‘Have you asked permission?’ I said ahem, ‘Yes.’ I hadn’t.
GR: You hadn’t.
HHB: So they said, ‘Right.’ So they’d got some model aeroplanes on the table. ‘What’s that?’ ‘A Blenheim.’ ‘What’s that?’ ‘A Wellington.’ ‘What’s that?’ ‘Junkers 88.’ ‘You know your airplanes don’t you?’ Anyway, I, that was more or less it. Off I went. Later on they called us all in, called the names out you’ve been accepted. You’ll be hearing from us. So of course I went back to work at Stafford in Telecoms and I got a letter from them, ‘We haven’t received a letter from your employer giving you permission.’ So I wrote back and said, ‘It hasn’t come back yet.’ Anyway, they must have got fed up with this because they wrote to the area manager at Stoke on Trent and I got instructions to go to Stoke to see the area manager. So I walked in, I forget his, Sefton I think his name was. I walked in and, ‘Oh yes, Bailey. You’ve applied to join the air force.’ ‘Yes sir.’ ‘You didn’t ask me if you could go.’ ‘No sir.’ Oh well. Anyway, had a general natter. He said, ‘Alright, well I’ll let you go. I’ll write to them and say you can go.’ About a fortnight after that I got my call up papers.
GR: Right.
HHB: October and off I went down to the usual place, Lords Cricket Ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Found my way across London. I’d never been to London before at eighteen and a bit, just over eighteen years old, you know. Anyway, I got to lords cricket ground and we all formed up. ‘Right, in here.’ We went in a long room which everybody else must have done as well.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Drop your trousers. Well people, well, I forgot to say I’d been in the Home Guard for a while. I was underage but of course the captain wanted, the lieutenant wanted to get enough recruits to make him captain he let me go in, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, I’d been used to all this sort of thing, you know when we went on camp. So of course I dropped my trousers, ‘C’mon drop your trousers’ and then of course the MO came along with his stick. Right, everybody, ‘Alright off you can go.’ So I walked out then and then they called out names and we were billeted in blocks in St Johns Wood. Blocks of flats. And we was there a fortnight and we had general tests again. I had two teeth out but they wouldn’t let you fly, they said with filled teeth.
GR: With fillings in your teeth.
HHB: With filling yeah so I sat in this chair and put my head back and getting ready to shout and this lovely blond face came over. She said. ‘It’ll be alright.’ Well, I couldn’t shout out then could I but anyway I had that out and that was it. I then waited. We were going to Bridlington to ITW of course so we went up to ITW and we was there for six weeks.
GR: That’s initial training isn’t it?
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: While we was there they decided that people who were higher qualified in the course would go straight to Dalcross Gunnery School instead of going to Elementary Gunner School at, was it Cosford? So, many of us went straight up to AGS Air Gunnery School at Dalcross, outside Inverness, for a three month course. So, by the time I got there it was just before Christmas, I think. Anyway, we went there and did the usual training on Ansons like we all did, you know, shooting and all the rest of it and it was quite a, I earned a bob or two there because we used to do skeet shooting. Clay, clay shooting -
GR: Yeah. Clay pigeon shooting.
HHB: We always used to put a bob in and I was quite good at it. I don’t know why but I was so I always used to earn a bob or two.
1049
GR: A little bit extra.
HHB: I got friendly with a WREN there and used to go to Inverness to see her and one day I saw the gunnery instructor there. So, the next day at lectures he was saying, ‘And don’t get sitting in the YM looking all dewey eyed at the girl with you,’ he said. ‘You need to be air gunners.’ Knowing that he meant me. Anyway, I passed out the course and went on leave. I got a telegram, ‘Report back.’ Went back. Being sent overseas. Oh God.
GR: Straight away.
HHB: Yeah. So what I got I got kitted out. I got a fortnight’s leave and the day after had to report to 5 PDC, Personnel Despatch Centre at Blackpool up there. You were just hanging about till I got the boat out from Liverpool. Didn’t know where we was going although the rumour was Cairo. We set off on this boat and found that we found out we were being sent out to the Middle East. Cairo. Got to Cairo. Landed at Port at Suez and was there for two or three days in tents and that was an experience because the people who’d been in these tents before us had been a load of Indian troops and their health habits weren’t very good. So we had quite a few -
GR: I can imagine.
HHB: In the sand.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Course we were only sleeping on sand on ground sheet. Anyway, eventually we all eventually got sent up to Cairo.
GR: Did you have any inclination, ‘cause obviously you’d joined you were an air gunner.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And obviously the natural progression would have been Bomber Command in England did you have any idea where you were going or -
HHB: No. No.
GR: What was going to happen to you?
HHB: No.
GR: No.
HHB: We were sent from, we got off the boat at Suez. We went up to Cairo. That was another PDC and there we just milled around waiting to be posted to OTU and I was sent to 76 OTU in Palestine at Aqir which was training for bombers. So, I finished up there. So we got on the train from Cairo across the Sinai Desert up. That was a journey on its own as well and that’s where my [?] big things they were [?]and were always something difficult to pack.
GR: Right.
HHB: So I said I’m fed up with this blooming thing. So, somebody said, ‘Don’t you want it.’ ‘Not really.’ The next minute it went out the window. It’s in the middle of the Sinai Desert somewhere. Anyway, we carried up to Palestine and we were in a PDC there and it was from there we sent to Aqir and there we got crewed up. Just went out one day. We didn’t have a hangar to go in. Just [parade] milled around the parade ground, get crewed up, you know. So I didn’t know what to do and all of a sudden this chap comes to me, ‘Have you got a crew?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Come on then I’ve got one, I’m a pilot’ So, we went and he was a South African Van der [Valt]. So we had a chat and he said, ‘Do you want to come, join me?’ So that’s how I joined him and then we got a navigator, bomb aimer and what have you and that was it. We started to fly doing our training but also flying on Wellingtons, you know.
GR: Right.
HHB: And that was interesting. Of course I flew Wellingtons of course we just had one that was going on a six or seven hour cross country flight and we’d only be air borne about forty minutes. I’m sitting in the rear turret and I thought, ‘Am I seeing things?’ Sparks come by and then bits of something was flying by, rings and pieces. I said, ‘Is the port engine alright skip?’ He said, ‘We’re just looking at it.’ I said, ‘Well it looks like it falling to pieces. There’s bits flying off it.’ So we feathered it and we had to turn back so but by then the starboard engine started perform so we decided to land at Lydda. So we called up, got clearance to land, coming in it was a Liberator, heavy con unit [ydda was and this Liberator was cutting out so we had to stagger around in the air on this one good engine. Well this happened twice.
GR: God.
HHB: And the third time, the second time of course, the engine, the starboard engine just packed up so we finished up in a big heap on the desert.
GR: Crash landed.
HHB: Crash landed but fortunately we was alright except the wireless operator. A chap named [Stoner] The wireless operator’s table with his equipment on it collapsed and he’d broken his leg so we lost, lost him but there was another one there without a crew so we got him. Chap named Shelby from Halifax. So we went, the MO called us in. He said, ‘Everybody alright? Anyone banged their head?’ Well I had but I didn’t say yes. So he said, ‘Alright then. Off you go then.’ So that was it.
GR: That was it.
HHB: That was it and the next, that night we were flying again on a night trip.
GR: On Wellingtons again.
HHB: On Wellingtons again.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Again.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Yeah. The story is that that Wellington that we crashed in had just come back from a seven hundred hour inspection. Major inspection. So somebody had slipped up there.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway, we staggered on through that and then we got leave in, well we went to Alexandria because I was friendly with a chap named Pearson and he was engaged to a girl in, she was a South African girl but living in Egypt and we went to their house and billeted there for our leave and then we came back again and then we were sent down to [Aberswayo] which was a con unit, heavy con unit for Liberators. So we did about a month course there and of course with being a South African crew half the crew were South African. The pilot, navigator and flight engineer were South Africans. We hadn’t got a beam gunner then. And the rest of the crew, bomb aimer, two gunners and a wireless operator were RAF. Anyway, we got sent to South African Air Force base depot at [El Marsi] just outside Cairo and there we stopped there then waiting for a posting to a squadron which eventually came about the end of September time and sometime in September 1944 and bundled on to a Dakota as far as to about Tunis and then we got American Air Force Commando aircraft flying across to Bari and from Bari we went to what they called the advanced SAF base depot at Bari waiting to be posted to a squadron.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And about October time, beginning of October time, we went to 31 SAF squadron based at Fuji, well [Saloni] just outside Foggia, and that’s where we started to fly our ops.
GR: Yeah. How many was on the Liberator? What was the full –
HHB: There was eight crew. There was -
GR: Eight crew.
HHB: Pilot, flight engineer and navigator, mid upper gunner, rear gunner, bomb aimer, beam gunner.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So, but we didn’t get the beam gunner till we got to the squadron.
GR: Right.
HHB: And all of a sudden this young lad, forget his name now, it’s in the logbook, he rolled up. He was a warrant officer and the South Africans when they were posted to a squadron they were immediately made up to warrant officers.
GR: Right. So were you all flight sergeants at the time.
HHB: Sergeants then, we were.
GR: Sergeants.
HHB: And he come straight from gunnery school as a, they didn’t even go through OTU and con unit. So, anyway, he was a warrant officer so there we were with this, but we started flying various ops, you know. Various supply drops, bombing raids.
GR: What was your first operation Bill?
HHB: Do you want to look at the logbook.
GR: Yeah I’ll just pause it for a sec.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So we’re just having a look at Bill’s logbook and yeah your first operation, I’m just looking there, 14th November.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: 1944 yeah. Supply drop to Yugoslavia. What was that like? I mean -
HHB: Well, you know, we was all a bit, the skip had already done his second pilot trip to know what was what, like. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. So, yeah, just looking at the logbook. Yeah, and the first, the first one was a supply drop. Did you know it was a supply drop or did you think -
HHB: Oh yes we’d got supplies in the big canisters in the fuselage.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And we were looking for a, I haven’t got it there but we had a certain area to go to and look for the area to go to and look for this, perhaps a cross or a triangle or something in flames or lights on the ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And then they’d signal us you know somewhere to drop. They were dropped by parachute, you know
GR: Yes.
HHB: And er yes that was, that was the first one. They’d break us in gently you see.
GR: Yes.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And just looking at the logbook. Yeah, there was a couple of supply drops.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And then the, I think your third operation.
HHB: Yeah. Bombing.
GR: Was bombing some German troop concentrations. So that was the first bombing run.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So what was that like, Bill?
HHB: Well it was, it’s a long time ago now.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: It was just another trip like, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Nothing much exciting happened on it. This one to [Sarajevo].
GR: Yeah. So -
HHB: So that was, that was, bomb doors froze up so we couldn’t drop the bombs.
GR: So the bomb doors froze -
HHB: Yeah, we was.
GR: Closed.
HHB: Twenty thousand feet, you see.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And yeah, they froze up. So, we had to drop the bombs, come down and drop the bombs in the sea as I say.
GR: And return to base.
HHB: Jettison in the sea [heavy light flak and that at Sarajevo]
GR: Flak. Yeah.
HHB: We went there in daytime as well with these.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But most of the raids at this time were the first one was -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A daylight one that one.
GR: So most of the operations were at night but then your first daylight operation 19th of November.
HHB: November.
GR: 1944.
HHB: Yeah. That was River Bridge in Yugoslavia.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I think the Germans were retreating through Yugoslavia.
GR: Yes.
HHB: And they wanted this bridge cutting. I don’t know whether we hit it or not. I can’t remember now. Probably missed it. So, I carried on like this until I finished my tour which was just before VE day.
GR: And I think I’ve seen there’s a total, total -
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Of thirty -
HHB: Eight or nine or something
GR: Thirty seven operations. We’re just going back.
HHB: Yeah there’s one, no, should be this one here.
GR: Should be, should be here Bill. Thirty three. That’s March.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: And then, yeah, there’s one in April there.
HHB: Yeah. Thirty six, thirty seven. Oh it’s there thirty seven.
GR: Yeah. So your last operation was on the 5th of April.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Well your tour, it probably wasn’t the last operation by the squadron but certainly your tour -
HHB: Yeah. My tour, yeah.
GR: Which was thirty seven operations so I mean over those thirty seven operations any close calls or was it a relatively -
HHB: The usual. We got trapped in searchlights over the [Rhone] one day. A couple of fighters we saw and I’ve got it somewhere. Got it somewhere
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Couple, couple of fighters we saw -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But we evaded them when we saw.
GR: Yeah. Did the squadron suffer many casualties while you were there?
HHB: No. No, not a lot.
GR: No.
HHB: No. Not a lot. We had one or two. They suffered a lot just before I joined them because they were on the Warsaw raid.
GR: Yes.
HHB: And they lost quite heavy then and then after that just before I joined them and this is why we went and then they sent aircraft up to drop supplies in Northern Italy to the Italian partisans and it was in the mountains and they’d got to get in to this valley to drop them. Of course if you dropped them too high they just floated away you see. You’d got to get down.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: A lot of these places were in valleys so you’d got to get down to about six or seven hundred feet just or to get just the height for the parachute to open.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Otherwise they floated away.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And when we got back they were in radio contact. When we got back they’d tell us whether it was a good drop or not. So they sent them to this Northern Italy and we lost six that night.
GR: God.
HHB: One has never been found. They found all the others crashed in the mountains but this one that’s never been found and one of the, the bomb aimer was a New Zealander and I had a letter from his, his daughter. She lives in, I can’t think off-hand. Anyway -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Anyway she [that was that] an advert anyone on 31 squadron, used to be a series on the television, comrades, old comrades to get in touch.
GR: Yeah. Yes.
HHB: And this one anyone on 31 SAF squadron so I rang it and it was her husband [and I know] cause he left, he was one of the crews that we’d gone to replace. He’d died just a week or so before us -
GR: You got there.
HHB: We got there. So [I’m still in touch?] every Christmas still get a card from her I send one to her you know but she had a plaque laid, made and laid in this village near where we were dropping the supplies.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And it’s mounted there in English and in Italian. The crews name and all the -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he was, he was actually a New Zealander but her mother was English. She’d married, married him and she was born, she was, her mother was conceiving while he was on ops.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he was killed before she was born.
GR: That’s right.
HHB: So that was why she was trying to find out anything about him.
GR: Trying to find anything about it all so -
HHB: So we didn’t, but um -
GR: When you were doing supply drops how many aircraft were flying in the squadron.
HHB: Well, there’d perhaps be -
GR: Roughly. You know, just -
HHB: Eight, ten.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But there was a group you see. The whole group went.
GR: Ah.
HHB: It was 205 group.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And that was the heavy bomber squadron and that came all the way up through the desert.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I’ve got a book there, “Bombers Over Sand and Snow”. It’s all about 205 group coming up from the start of the war up through Egypt and into Italy.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So this was 37 squadron, 45 squadron. There was quite a group of -
GR: Yeah. So, 205 group.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Would do.
HHB: But we were the only ones, on our squadron was 31 squadron South African and 34 South African. We were the only ones on that group with Liberators. The others were still on Wellingtons.
GR: Right.
HHB: But by January ‘45 they’d all converted to Liberators.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: But so on these trips sometimes there was Liberators and Wellingtons as well. Yeah. And also on the unit was an American squadron, whatever they called them, the fortresses.
GR: The B17s. Yeah the B17s. Flying Fortresses.
HHB: So [right Mick] so we er, but we had quite a lot of activity during the daytime. We were going up at night. Well, all we was landing on was pierced steel planking.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: For runways and as the weather deteriorated and in ’44, ‘45 at that time was the worst winter in living memory in Italy. Snow, rain, everywhere was muddied up. We wasn’t in, all we lived in was tents. We didn’t live in huts. It was tents. Eight man tents. But eventually a friend of mine, Shorty Pearson, we were both on the same squadron, we got a small two men tent which was better but there was no room in it.
GR: No.
HHB: I mean, we eventually to sleep on we were sleeping on the floor or on the ground sheets you know but eventually we got the bomb tails when the bombs came the tails were protected by a, they were like a small, looked like a stool about [eighteen] inches high.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And about a foot square.
GR: And that was protecting the fins on the bombs.
HHB: Protecting the fins, yeah. So we eventually collected enough of them to make a bed which only left a narrow gap in between but at least we was off the floor.
GR: Incredible.
HHB: So, but so -
GR: So -
HHB: What happened, what I was going to say was that in the January time we were starting the Americans didn’t want the Libs there cause they were breaking the runways up so we all had to move off to [Foggamin] to a concrete runway.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: The main airfield at Foggia. So after one raid I haven’t got it in my book but after one trip we had to land there and they picked us up in lorries and took us back to base
GR: Right.
HHB: And of course that was tough on the ground staff having to service the aircraft out, you know, there and all the equipment. Anyway, we managed for a few weeks and er, till the, till the place had dried out a bit you know and it was fit for us to, for the Liberator cause they were breaking up the runways.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the perimeter track was all hard core. There was nothing permanent, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the conditions there were only two, three buildings on, on, on the squadron. Well there was four actually, buildings. One was the church which was wooden, one was the sergeant’s mess and the airmen’s mess, the officer’s mess and the ops room and one of the other farm buildings was used as a parachute section and that was it. The rest of us were all in, under canvas
HHB: Yeah.
GR: All through the winter.
GR: ‘Cause Foggia was a big base wasn’t it?
HHB: Yes, there was -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: In that area I think there was eight airfields around Foggia.
GR: Right.
HHB: And you’d be sitting there and you’d hear a boom and you’d see a big cloud and oh another Liberator crashed or gone up, you know. You heard a big bang. That was a Wellington, another Wellington gone up. Yeah. But of course we were losing a lot to accidents, you know.
GR: Yeah. Probably more to accidents than -
HHB: Probably.
GR: Yeah, than fighters and -
HHB: Anyway, thinking about the squadron you’d be lying there on your bed and also the Americans, the South Africans had army ranks they weren’t pilot officer and that they were second lieutenants, lieutenants, captains.
GR: Right.
HHB: And warrant officer. The station warrant officer was a sergeant major. He’d be out there and you’d hear, ‘Wakey wakey. Following crews. Ops room half an hour.’ Look at your watch, 5 o’clock.
GR: Oh.
HHB: Oh no. And you’d lie there hoping he didn’t call your name out and you’d hear him say Captain van der [Valt]. Oh God that’s us. Got to get up and so it was down to the ops room and while we were in the ops room and while we were in the ops room getting briefed and that the cooks would be getting a breakfast of sorts, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Then we’d go and have breakfast and take off would be about two or three hours later, you know. Yeah used to lie there. The electricity supply was the [eight wire] all the way through the camp and we used to just wrap a piece around and take a lead to your place and try and hope it was waterproof. Half the time you know it would go on and go off of course, you know.
GR: What was the food supply like in Italy cause obviously back in England it was quite severe rationing.
HHB: Yeah well we was rationed there. I mean it was corned beef with everything.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: One day I went in the mess and this, ‘Oh fried fish.’ Opened it up. It was a piece of bully beef in batter.
GR: Bully beef in batter.
HHB: Yeah and the coffee, they had coffee but that was in a big urn and you -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Used to dip your mug in, you know.
GR: And drink it.
HHB: ‘Cause it was, what annoyed us with the Americans there they got a little portable generator. Every tent had got these little portable generator putt putts as they were called, they actually had one on the Liberator as alternative power supply. When they landed you switched it on, you know and this was so you got these on little stands and every tent had got one and they just used to start it up. Lights. Yeah.
GR: So definitely the RAF was
HHB: They got, they got –
GR: Poor relations to the Americans.
HHB: Yeah. They got, they got duck boards all over the place. Yeah. And they’d even got a cinema allowed us, certain nights, to go to the cinema but –
GR: Oh right.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: What happened at the end of tour? Did you stay in Italy or –
HHB: No. After the end of tour I got sent back up to Naples which was a closure of a PDC for despatching people.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I got put on a ship back to Suez and on the way back VE day came in May so by the time I got to Cairo back to [El Marsa] again which was another Cairo air force dump it was VE night.
GR: VE night. Yeah.
HHB: And that night, that day, a lot of WAAFs had just arrived. The first big load of WAAFs to come out I think and they were in this camp as well but that was all [laughs] wired off you know and so it was about one hundred and twelve degrees there that night. Cor it was hot. Anyway, I stopped there for a while until I got my posting home. I suppose, of course I was young and they got me back to retrain me you see but they didn’t realise there was a class B man who was going to get released anyway.
GR: Right.
HHB: I didn’t know this. Anyway, I got home and went to Catterick, Catterick RAF camp and that was a despatch centre, you know. Went and had an interview
GR: Yeah.
HHF: And decided, they sent me to Cranwell on a signals course. Being telecoms I suppose they thought I’d know all about it you see.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HHB: So I went there and just, can’t say that, we learned a lot about radio and all that and how to operate the VH direction finder. Anyway eventually got posted from there again, abroad. Up to Blackpool again 5 PDC and I flew out to India.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: In a Stirling.
GR: Out to India in a Stirling.
HHB: Yes. I’ve got it here.
GR: Was there any, had victory in Japan been achieved by then or -
HHB: No. Yes. Yes.
GR: Yes oh yes so there was no possibilities of them sending you out to the Far East.
HHB: [] sent to India. Stradishall to Castel Benito seven hours. Castel Benito to Cairo West, five hours. Cairo West to [?] or something, five hours.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Mayapur in India five hours. Mayapur to Pune four hours. Pune to [arro] something.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And then -
GR: And so a long trek to India.
HHB: Yes and I went right down there and eventually got down there and eventually were at a place called [Momatagama] in Ceylon.
GR: In Ceylon.
HHB: Just below Kandy. Actually it was Kandy airstrip. A little airstrip in the middle of nowhere.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And the radio set was a little TR9 which was something they had pre-war, you know. Anyway, and all they did there was sit in flying control and you’d open up 6 o’clock till two or two till six, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And people would call up and, you know, planes would land, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: At one time it was very busy when Kandy had been very busy when Kandy was the Headquarters for SEAC.
GR: Yes. South East Asia Command. Yes.
HHB: Yeah, but it was very quiet. There was, passed one aircraft a week sometimes. Lovely sitting there it was, doing nothing and then I got posted to a place called Mowathagama which was, this airstrip was called Mowathagama.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I went from there to [Cowgla] so I flew down there in a little um Expediator.
GR: Oh right.
HHB: An American two engine -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Passenger plane. Twenty five, fifty minutes to [?], [?] to Mowathagama forty five minutes. To [Cowgla] and that was in Ceylon.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I went there and got put on a Liberator direction finder and you’d sit there on the beach. Lovely sand. Blue, blue sea. Palm trees.
GR: Warm weather.
HHB: Ooh.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And somebody’d call up ‘bearing,’ so you’d give them a bearing, you know, and not very often. Only two or three times while I was there and so that was -
GR: Around about February ‘46.
HHB: No, I was there then.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Yeah. It was February.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: ‘46 I went there and I as I say sat on the beach doing nothing. Six till two, two till six. The early shift was long but that one wasn’t and when we wasn’t flying we used to go swimming. A load of, after the war the landmines, the mines they’d got, the sea mines, they took them and blew space in the rocks for swimming pool.
GR: Right.
HHB: So that was -
GR: Good use of the mines.
HHB: Yeah. Swimming up there. And so I was there until March and one day I got a call to go to the adjutant’s office. Knocked on the door and went in. ‘Ah yes.’ He said, ‘Your class B release has come through.’ Well that was the first I knew about it. So he said, ‘Do you want it? Go outside and think about it.’ So, went outside, shut the door, knocked the door and went in and said, ‘Yes.’ So, good, I came out on B but the best bit of it was coming home. I got about, the records for about twenty five other airmen. And he said, ‘Here you are. Look after these’ and you’ll be starting from wherever it was now going up to Pune eventually to fly back home from Pune.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I got these records all the time, had to look after them, a pile -
GR: A great big pile of records.
HHB: A lot of these people I mean I was only twenty one then, you know these were time expired, been out there five years.
GR: Five years.
HHB: Yeah and one of them was a sergeant getting demobbed and he was most upset. Of course he’d got no family back home.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And he’d been in air force all his life and he was coming home. He was really upset he was but all the others, you know.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: They were looking forward to it so the last I saw of them we went to Hednesford. There we went through the demob thing and the suits and all.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Whatever you had. I had the sports jacket and flannels and mac and shoes and shirt and what have you and we got no money then but I found a postal order. I think it was for a pound that the unit had been on when I was in telecoms. Post office engineering sent to me in Italy so I went and cashed this thing so four or five of us went out that night on this pound and had a drink and it lasted -
GR: Out on the town with a pound.
HHB: Yeah. We drank, drank what we could out of it. I mean in them days six shilling for a pint.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HHB: So, the last I saw of them I jumped off the truck at Stafford station ‘cause that was the station they took us to. They went on the train and I picked my bags up and walked home. Course I lived in Stafford at the time.
GR: And that was it. You were out of the RAF.
HHB: Out the RAF. Yeah.
GR: When I came back I flew from Pune to Barakpur. Barakpur to [Shiboor, Shiboor] to Lydda, Palestine, Lydda
GR: Yeah.
HHB: To Castel where we crashed, Lydda. Lydda to Castel Benito.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Castel Benito to Waterbeach.
GR: Waterbeach.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: So coming home, a total of thirty one hours -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Flying time.
GR: Yeah, that was in a Liberator.
HHB: in a Liberator.
GR: And the flight engineer, I said to the flight, you know, I said I was on Libs, you know.
HHB: Oh he said do you want to test the undercarriage for me. Course when you went in a Lib the tricycle undercarriage always checked the nose wheel.
GR: Yes.
HHB: ;Cause it didn’t always lock in position. Had to go down and see a little red button there and he said, I said, ‘No, I’ve done it. I know what’s going to happen when I get down there and especially over these places, desert and that, that’ll be sand’ -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Sandpaper on your face. I said, ‘No. Thank you very much. I’m not doing that.’ That was another job for the air gunner by the way. When we came in to land in a Lib you always had to come out the turret because it was too heavy, the tricycle, the undercarriage would be up and down.
GR: Up and down yes.
HHB: It would hit the ground if you were in there so we had to come out of there to the beam position and that was our landing position.
GR: Landing position, yeah.
HHB: But when you landed you had to open the hatch and the pilot was on the port side. You had to get the Aldiss lamp and shine it up, ‘Up a bit. Hold it there,’ So he could see the edge of the perimeter track. Course the landing lights were shining too far in -
GR: Too far in front.
HHB: So you had to sit there with all the mud and muck coming into your face. Of course they were muddy, muddy ground.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Getting splattered yeah. You were dirty when you got out, you know. Yeah. And that was your job. You had to check the two red lugs come down on the undercarriage, you had to make sure -
GR: That they were down.
HHB: They were down and checked the front. I never did the one on ops but I couldn’t get down the bomb bay.
GR: No cause you’d be -
HHB: Cause with the kit on. The bomb bay was only about -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: [eighteen] inches wide, if that. I couldn’t get through them without taking your clothes off you know your harness, Mae West.
GR: Couldn’t’ do that.
HHB: And all that. Which you didn’t. So that was my time in the air force.
GR: Your time in the air force. What happened after the war? Did you -
HHB: I went back to Telecoms
GR: Yeah.
HHB: And I stopped there forty eight years.
GR: Forty eight years.
HHB: Forty eight years in total. I had forty six years as Post Office Telephones and two years as British Telecoms
GR: Two years as British Telecom. Yeah.
HHB: Yeah but by then it wasn’t the same. The spirit had gone out of it. I mean I’ve stood in manholes when I was a jointer before I got promotion and that, like this, water up to here holding the joint up in the air so it didn’t get wet.
GR: Can you imagine that now with health and safety?
HHB: I’ve worked, I’ve worked up poles you know trying to plumb cables up. I mean -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Now, they’ve got gas blow lamps but they, they were paraffin.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Or petrol and they’d go cold in the middle of wiping a joint the lamp would go out you know, especially if it was paraffin it would go cold. You’d have to chuck it down and get another one up, you know.
GR: Did you actually go back to exactly the same job that you’d left?
HHB: Yeah.
GR: Straight after the war. Yeah.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So they, in theory your job was kept open. There was a vacancy there.
HHB: There was a lot of newcomers there that I didn’t know they were.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Ex-servicemen, they took a lot of ex-servicemen on. Well -
GR: Yeah.
HHB: Most of them were. Yes, I went back there and I stopped at Stafford for a while but by then I got in touch with my mother ‘cause she was in Nottingham.
GR: Right.
HHB: So, actually I got in touch with her during the war. Course she realised I would be going up and she made great efforts to locate us. Anyway, so I went back to Stafford. I came to Nottingham in ‘46 and stopped in Nottingham all the time. Started off as a cable jointer. Actually while I was in Italy I got a letter from the post office saying I’d been promoted to USW unestablished civil service, it was a civil service then. You got established.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: I’d done five year established I’d done five years, skilled workmen that was so of course when I came that was it so of course eventually over the years I eventually got promoted to assistant executive engineer and that was underground maintenance. A group of about eighty men.
GR: Did you see, obviously you said you saw your mum.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: After the war?
HHB: Yes. I saw her before the war.
GR: Yes. Did you see your dad after the war or -
HHB: Yeah, I saw my dad.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: He still lived in Stoke he did.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: He eventually got married again.
GR: Yeah. But you saw them both.
HHB: Yeah.
GR: So even though they were separated.
HHB: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: Oh that’s good.
HHB: My father died in 1962.
GR: Yeah.
HHB: My mother died 1992. Something like that.
GR: 1992 yeah. Oh that’s good.
HHB: So, that was it.
GR: Thank you Bill that was excellent. That was very, very interesting thank you.
HHB: We can nip down and have a pint now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Bailey was born in Stafford. After finishing school he went to work for the Post Office Telephones service as a telegram boy. He decided to join the Royal Air Force and began training as a rear gunner at RAF Dalcross. He joined 31 Squadron of 205 Group. He was then posted overseas to Egypt, Palestine and Italy. He and his crew undertook supply drops to Yugoslavia and to partisan groups in Italy.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-01
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:48:23 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABaileyHH160501
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
South African Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina--Sarajevo
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Great Britain
Italy
Italy--Bari
Italy--Foggia
North Africa
India
India--Pune
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
31 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
B-24
crash
crewing up
forced landing
ground personnel
Initial Training Wing
medical officer
memorial
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Aqir
RAF Bridlington
RAF Dalcross
recruitment
Resistance
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1247/17040/PLeckieW1901.2.jpg
66b1611784af6fa1e98248f944c26165
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1247/17040/ALeckieW190322.2.mp3
ed629a3eb9fa65452055ce8345280bde
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leckie, Bill
William Leckie
W Leckie
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Bill Leckie (1921 - 2021). He flew operations as a pilot with 216 and 77 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-03-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Leckie, W
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Alistair Montgomery and the interviewee is Mr Bill Leckie, Flight Lieutenant Bill Leckie or Captain Bill Leckie. The interview is taking place at Bill’s lovely home in Troon. Bill, good afternoon.
BL: Good afternoon, Monty.
AM: Bill, tell me just a little bit about your family background and where you lived prior to joining the Royal Air Force.
BL: Well, to go back to where I was started living. That was Glasgow. I was born in Glasgow. I lived there for about seven years and then my father, he suffered with bronchitis. He had been a heavy smoker and that’s his problem. It was his problem, and he was told he would have to get away from the city so he got a transfer to the more or less the country which was fine because he was a country born himself and brought up in the country, and same with my mother. They were both country people so they were quite happy and there was, he got a place with a bit of ground attached to it which he never really managed to make it, you know [pause] you know, a living from. But he got some a poultry farm he ought to expand it in to but it never took place. So, I was brought up on that basis in the country, and then that was fine. And when I was, oh what would I be now? I think I would be what, eighteen when I joined the Air Force. I did want to join as a boy service but my mother and dad wouldn’t agree to it, and so I had to wait until the war came along and I was called up.
AM: Right.
BL: And I spent five years in the Air Force.
AM: So, when, when you were called up where did you go for your, for your basic training?
BL: That was mainly [pause] I’ll get the name in a minute. Babbacombe.
AM: Babbacombe. Right.
BL: Yeah, Number 1 ITW. Babbacombe.
AM: Right. By the sea.
BL: By the sea.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s where I did my ITW as they called it.
AM: Right. So —
BL: I was called up and I went to St John’s Wood in London. That was my first full time encounter with the Service as such. From being called up and going along and signing in and being asked what I wanted to do, that was about I think about three months before I finally went to, well I went to St John’s Wood first of all.
AM: Right.
BL: As a reception. And from St John’s Wood I went down to Babbacombe to do my ITW.
AM: Right. And what was that like?
BL: That was fine. That was good. Quite, fairly intensive, but I don’t think we were, we were too badly done by.
AM: Right [laughs] and did you know at that stage that you were going to undertake pilot training?
BL: I knew at that stage. Right from the beginning.
AM: Right.
BL: Because that’s what I asked to be, you know at the initial call up. They said, ‘Oh, what would you like to be?’ And I said, ‘A pilot.’ They sat reading my papers and fortunately enough my name must have come out of the hat. I don’t know.
AM: Right. I mean did you do any specific tests to assess whether you were better as a pilot or as something else then?
BL: No. No.
AM: Right.
BL: No. I went straight on to the pilot course.
AM: Right. So when you finished your square bashing what happened then?
BL: Oh. What did we do after that? Oh, yes. We rolled up to, oh what was the place? The aircrew centre at, near Manchester.
AM: Right.
BL: And I spent, I expected to spend quite some time there. Instead all I’d spent was three days and I was put on a, you know, what would you call it? A group, and we were told we were going overseas.
AM: Right.
BL: And simply because they came up to, to Greenock, I mean I recognised the place. I knew where I was, but I was just when we got off the train and then straight on board the ship, you know.
AM: Right.
BL: The train ran out on to the jetty where the ship was moored.
AM: Right.
BL: And that was me on my way across the water there over to Canada. We arrived in Halifax.
AM: Right. And was the, was the sea crossing uneventful?
BL: Uneventful.
AM: Right. Thank goodness for that.
BL: Yeah. We had a fast ship and we had another ship which kept us company.
AM: Right.
BL: It wasn’t, you know a Navy ship or anything like that. A ship that had been converted into I think, what did they call them?
AM: A troopship.
BL: Yeah. A troopship. Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: I think so. Yeah. Well, the first ship and then another ship. I don’t know what the other ship was carrying but I think it was a troop ship as well.
AM: Right.
BL: And we had this ship escorting us.
AM: Right.
BL: And we eventually finished up in Halifax. We got on the train in Halifax and that took us down to Detroit. We went to Detroit from there, and we spent what you might say initial training in Detroit, probably part of it, and when we finished our time in Detroit which was a kind of square bashing effort we moved down to Pensacola.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s where we started to do our flying properly. We did a few trips in Detroit so we did on a, it was an old biplane to begin with and then we got a slightly newer Stearman. But anyway down to Pensacola and there we flew the old MP1 as it was called which was an aircraft that the American Navy had built themselves. They built aircraft during the war, but the original aircraft, and then we got off them on to more modern Stearmans and finished our flying then.
AM: And how did you find the flying training? Was it a challenge or did you find it fairly straightforward? Or —
BL: Oh, no. Well, to me it was a challenge. I had to keep myself, you know [pause] I never found it easy. No. No. No.
AM: What was the element you found hardest? Was it instruments or aerobatics or —
BL: Aerobatics.
AM: Right.
BL: Aerobatics. I don’t think I could have been a, you know, a fighter pilot. I don’t think so.
AM: Right.
BL: So, I got what I wanted. The big aircraft. And that’s what I got. I actually didn’t. I mean, I had, when I was chosen to go on to the Flying Boats that was what I had in my mind and I thought I’d got them but no.
AM: But you did some Catalina flying in America.
BL: Oh, yes. That’s right.
AM: Tell me a wee bit about that. What that was like?
BL: It was just all training. There was never any, you know actual what you might say offensive work but it was all these long trips training. I think that the longest trip we did, in my mind anyway was the twelve hour trip.
AM: Oh gosh.
BL: And they were just in a sense letting you see what it was like to travel [laughs] You know.
AM: And was it easy to fly? The Catalina.
BL: No. It wasn’t easy to fly. It was a very sluggish aircraft.
AM: Right.
BL: If you wanted to make a left or a right hand turn you had to think about it, you know quite a little while before you went into the turn and that because even though you used the controls she was very slow at responding to them. So you were always, in a sense you had to be ahead of yourself but other than that they were fine. Yeah.
AM: So, so then you finished in the Catalina is that when you came back to —
BL: Yes.
AM: To the UK.
BL: Sent back to the UK to wait for a posting to a Boat squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: I never knew whether I would. I was to be going on a Short Sunderland or the Catalina again and I didn’t know. We were, we stayed in Harrogate for, I think for six weeks waiting on a posting.
AM: Right.
BL: We came back to Harrogate from the States.
AM: So there you are in Harrogate fully expecting to become, to become a maritime pilot. To become a Flying Boat pilot.
BL: That’s what I expected to go on to.
AM: Right. So, tell me what actually happened then.
BL: I don’t know. It just happened. There was no postings came up for a Boat squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: And I then had to go to Little Rissington and convert in to the Bomber Command.
AM: Right.
BL: From, oh I forget now. What was the [pause] it doesn’t matter, I think. No. The flying, the Flying Boat commander. What was that called again?
AM: Maritime.
BL: It was maritime anyway.
AM: Yeah.
BL: Yeah. So, as I say I went to Little Rissington, converted on to an, on to an Oxford and then from the Oxfords I finally got posted to a squadron to do an OTU which was up in the north of Scotland at Lossiemouth.
AM: Right.
BL: I think it was.
AM: And what, what did you fly at Lossiemouth?
BL: Wellingtons.
AM: Right.
BL: To begin with it was Whitleys. We had a Whitley to begin with.
AM: And did you have your own crew at that stage?
BL: No. No. Not all of it. And I never flew in a Wellington. That’s not right. I flew the Whitley and I had a part crew.
AM: Right.
BL: I think I was missing an engineer. Yeah. I think it was the engineer and then from, from there I was posted down to York. And then from York I was posted to [pause] no. I must have done another. Before that happened I was posted to Stoke Orchard for some AFU flying.
AM: Right.
BL: And then from there I was posted up to Forres actually. More so than Lossiemouth. I didn’t fly from Lossiemouth. It was Forres I flew from, and I flew the Whitley then.
AM: Right.
BL: And then from there I was posted down to Harrogate and then I joined 77 Squadron.
AM: Right. And what, what aircraft did they have then?
BL: There they were the Halifax.
AM: Right. The Halifax.
BL: Yeah. That was Group. 4 Group. And 4 Group were Halifaxes.
AM: Right. And had you crewed up by this stage?
BL: When I got to Harrogate that was when I picked up my engineer.
AM: Right. So how did, how did, tell me a little bit about this process of getting your crew together then.
BL: Well, that was left up to ourselves to pick who we wanted and I had it in my mind I wanted to have an all Scottish crew.
AM: Right.
BL: And I nearly achieved my purpose. I had all, I had I would say six crew plus myself and I had five, and needed an engineer. No. A sparks. I had an engineer. There was a sparks I was missing.
AM: Right.
BL: A wireless operator.
AM: Right.
BL: I couldn’t get anybody who was Scottish. This was what was, we were given, I think we were given a week, I can’t remember but they had to be, had to get it done. If you didn’t get it done yourself then they would do it for you. Whoever was in charge. And I had got the five and I was left with one and that was the engineer and I had a day to go. That was all. So, I thought well I’ll have to pick on somebody. I did ask a chap and he was quite happy. Yes. That was ok. He would come and join them and blow me down but the next day a chap came up to me, a Scottish lad and this chap who had asked to come as, you know the last member of the crew he was English and the lad who came up to me the next day was Scottish. I just missed out on the all Scottish crew.
AM: Right.
BL: So I don’t think there would have been too many of those, you know.
AM: No. I don’t think so at all. So, by the time you got to the squadron about how many Halifax sorties had you done on the OTU, roughly?
BL: I would say very few. I mean my first operational trip was to a place called Russelsheim in Germany. And I only did I think three or four trips altogether when I found myself in the CO’s office saying to me that there was a posting he would like to, ‘Would you like to go on a posting somewhere else?’ He said. And I said, ‘Yeah. I don’t mind.’ He says, ‘Well, we’ll have you posted and your crew and you’ll be leaving tonight.’ Just like that [laughs] And that’s what happened and we moved, we flew down to [pause] it’s a Transport Command station in the south of England. Still in operation today and I can’t think of the name of it.
AM: Was it, was it Lyneham?
BL: No. No. No. It wasn’t far from Lyneham but it wasn’t Lyneham. It was another name. So we spent a night. Yeah. We spent the night there. We flew down there and spent the night and the following night we boarded a Hudson not going, not knowing where we were going. Just going on to, there was, you know another crew and ourselves and flying out as passengers. Nobody told you where you were going and it wasn’t, the first place we touched down at on the way out was Gibraltar to refuel and get breakfast. We had breakfast of bacon and eggs.
AM: Right [laughs]
BL: And then we took off and we flew along the north coast of Africa until we got to [pause] I can’t remember now though I did, I think we [pause] yes we landed at what was called Cairo West. It was an airfield. The airport or the airfield was in the desert.
AM: Right.
BL: And that’s where we landed and that was with 216 Squadron, which was the squadron I had been posted to. That’s where it operated from, this squadron in the desert.
AM: And this was still on the Halifax.
BL: And they were flying DC3s then.
AM: Right.
BL: Left the Halifax behind.
AM: But you flew the Halifax in Italy did you not?
BL: When I went up to, when I went up to there. When I got posted there. From there I got posted up to Naples and then in Naples I was posted down to Brindisi and they were fitted out with Halifaxes.
AM: Right. Which Mark of Halifaxes was that?
BL: It was the Mark, the Mark 2 I think it was.
AM: Right. And what was the, what was the role of that squadron?
BL: That was a special duties squadron.
AM: Right.
BL: So that was simply feeding the guerrilla fighters, if you like with guns, ammunition, and food and clothing and they would go and do drops wherever they set up a dropping zone.
AM: And was, whereabouts were these drop zones? Yugoslavia or —
BL: Mainly in the Yugoslav. Mainly in the Balkans.
AM: Right.
BL: Various places in the Balkans and usually they would be somewhere in a clearing in the hills. There was usually hills around about you.
AM: Yeah.
BL: You seldom got a, you know a dropping zone which was clear.
AM: And were these drops being done by day or by night?
BL: By day.
AM: Right. And what sort of height were you dropping from?
BL: About eight hundred to five hundred feet.
AM: Oh, my God. And was it mainly stores or people or both?
BL: No. There was some people. Joes we called them. We went some, there were two or three flights with Joes on board but mainly it was supplies.
AM: Right.
BL: It was. And —
AM: I understand you were involved with dropping some of the agents involved with the recovery of the Nazi art, is that correct?
BL: That’s right. Yes. That was as I say. That took place. Not that I knew it at the time but there is a book written about it.
AM: Right. This one. “The Monument Men.” Is that it?
BL: The, “Monument Men.” Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: Right. Yes. I flew them in to where we had to drop them off and where they were going was we landed on a plateau and as I say it was Norway. We didn’t land on the plateau. We dropped them off over the target.
AM: Right.
BL: And it was snow covered at the time. It was in the wintertime, and we left them at that and where they were going was down in to the valley and we could see the lights.
AM: In to Berchtesgaden area was it?
BL: Pardon?
AM: Was that at Berchtesgaden in southern Germany? Or was it —
BL: No. That wasn’t the name. There’s another name for it. It’s mentioned in the “Monument Men.”
AM: Right.
BL: But I can’t think of it. Anyway —
AM: Did you ever have a chance to talk to these people you were going to drop?
BL: I didn’t but my mid-upper gunner did.
AM: Right.
BL: Well, that was his previous job. That’s what, he’d been trained as a mid-upper gunner but when we were flying as the special duties which we had done most of, we had only done three or four bombing trips. He got talking the odd time but most times the people, they didn’t speak English or they wouldn’t speak English whatever way it was. They didn’t say anything about what they had to do.
AM: Right.
BL: There was, there was one story came back to us. I think it really came back to us. One story came back. One story came back saying we’d dropped them in the wrong place and well as far as I was concerned and the navigator was concerned we dropped them where we were told when we got our briefing before going off on the flight. And sometime later we discovered that it was a habit of the ops people that they would be there telling us where we were going. Not telling us where we were going but telling us a false place. In other words the idea that was that somebody had been talking to us, or we inadvertently said something about where we were going to do the drops but we wouldn’t be there because that was all changed.
AM: So it was a decoy really.
BL: It was a decoy. Yeah.
AM: Right.
BL: And the final dropping zone we got when we went to our final briefing, not until then.
AM: Let, let me just take you back a bit to your, your early bombing sorties on, on the Halifax when you were still based in, in Yorkshire.
BL: York.
AM: Yeah. At Elvington and Full Sutton. What was your first bombing sortie? Was that a day sortie or a night sortie?
BL: No. It was a night sortie.
AM: Right.
BL: I went as a second pilot actually.
AM: Right. And what was that like having for the first time — ?
BL: We were bombing from I think about ten thousand feet and that was just you know all the lights and everything else. I’d never seen anything like it.
AM: No. There was a lot of flak.
BL: Yes. There was some flak. Yes. But I just did the one trip, you know.
AM: Right. And then you went off with your own crew.
BL: Yes.
AM: And what were the first bombing sorties you did then?
BL: Well, again that was just the [pause] the next day. I never knew what we were dropping you know in a sense of what our bomb load was.
AM: Right.
BL: Never, never sort of saw into that. The only thing was that there was one trip we had to do and that was daylight trip. We were supposed to be bombing behind the British lines but before we got there. I mean in France this was.
AM: Right.
BL: But before we actually got to the, where we were supposed to be dropping these behind the British lines, as it were word came through the radio operator that we had to return home and drop our bombs in the Channel. The operation was off. It was cancelled. And of course they didn’t want you landing with live bombs.
AM: No.
BL: At the airport. So that’s what happened. That was the only time it did happen and we dropped them in the, in the Channel.
AM: Right. So these were sorties to support the British troops in Normandy.
BL: That’s right.
AM: Right. And did you do any sorties against the V-1 sites or —
BL: No. No. Aye. Probably we did. But I didn’t —
AM: You mentioned Russelsheim in Germany.
BL: Yeah. That was the very first trip I did.
AM: Right.
BL: That was a night trip.
AM: Right.
BL: But I think that’s why it sticks in my mind.
AM: I can imagine. And were most of those sorties you did at that stage day trips?
BL: No. No. Only because, only, we only did three or four trips. I should go and get my log book and look it.
AM: Yeah. You can do. [unclear]
BL: That’s fine. That’ll do it.
[recording paused]
AM: Perfect.
BL: I think it was Full Sutton. That was where I was at, look.
AM: Yeah. Bill, if you can just tell me a wee bit about what life was like at, at Full Sutton.
BL: Well, I can’t say that there was any outstanding other than just if there was an operational on we’d get our briefing during the day we had, spent at you know in the camp or went in to York. Like I say I spent a lot of time on my own. I didn’t go around with a group of lads.
AM: Right.
BL: I was, I suppose I was considered a loner.
AM: Right.
BL: So there was nothing.
AM: So, what was, what was the social life in the mess like?
BL: Well, it was alright. I mean, I just met up, you know, I knew a few lads. There was one other chap that we were, I was quite, kind of friendly with that kept in touch after the war as well but he has died. He died several years ago.
AM: Right.
BL: I’m trying to remember now. Something about [pause] you see my memory’s gone now.
AM: I think all of us suffer a bit from our memory’s fading a wee bit.
BL: My memory’s gone for lots of things.
AM: So when you, when you, when you left the RAF and, and joined the Reserve where did you move to then?
BL: Well, we used to go to Grangemouth.
AM: Right.
BL: And we’d go there, you know for I would not only get there on a Sunday I didn’t get there every weekend and I never spent a weekend at Grangemouth but I went there and did fly in a Tiger Moth over there.
AM: Right.
BL: So that was really what we did at Grangemouth.
AM: And what sort of flying was that in the Tiger Moth? Was it flying cadets or —
BL: No.
AM: Just training.
BL: Just training. We had a good commander there. You’d go off, off solo.
AM: Yeah.
BL: You know, you passed out and I mean most of the flying was done solo so that was interesting. And as I say was [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of it.
AM: And where were you working at this stage?
BL: Well, to begin with, before I joined up I was working in a cinema as a projectionist.
AM: Right.
BL: And when I came back I went back to the company and I got a job back again as a projectionist. And then from there I left that and I went to work at the Hoover people in the Hoover factory. That was just simply a production job. I was just checking out the, the [pause] what would you call it now, what would you call it? The electric. They were making electric motors.
AM: Yes.
BL: And that was a question you had to check. Just, I mean it was a dead simple job.
AM: And was this at Cambuslang?
BL: That was at Cambuslang.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s right.
AM: So, what did the people around about you think about having an RAF pilot working in the Hoover factory? They must have remarked on it.
BL: Well, I don’t think anybody knew. I don’t think anybody were any the wiser.
AM: No.
BL: I never talked about it.
AM: You never told them.
BL: No.
AM: Right. That’s amazing. Right. I suppose that must have been quite common after the war. That people went from being, you know aircraft captains.
BL: Oh aye.
AM: To being, working on a shop floor.
BL: Yeah. Well, you see I was lucky enough, I don’t remember now but I mean as I say I joined up in the Reserve, and there was an exhibition in Glasgow in the Kelvin Hall and the RAF VR had a stand there. So naturally I went along there and talked to them and that’s when I joined up again.
AM: Right.
BL: Went back into the Reserves and then started going to Grangemouth and doing some flying from Grangemouth. And then Grangemouth closed down and I went to Perth. Again, it was just weekend flying for a wee while but eventually I got a job in Perth as a staff pilot.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s what started me off.
AM: Right.
BL: You know. Up until then I was just sort of dodging around. I really hadn’t a proper job, a fixed job when I came back.
AM: And were you married by this time?
BL: I’d got married by then. Yes.
AM: Aye. So you needed a steady job.
BL: Yeah.
AM: So where did you go from [Airworks]?
BL: Aer Lingus
AM: Right. So you moved to Ireland.
BL: We moved to Ireland. Yes.
AM: Right.
BL: That’s right.
AM: And when you started with Aer Lingus what were you flying?
BL: A DC3.
AM: Right. So, that was something you knew.
BL: That’s exactly. That’s why I got the job.
AM: Right. And how long did you fly the DC3 with Aer Lingus for?
BL: Quite a long while.
AM: Right.
BL: Because that’s all they had.
AM: Right.
BL: Were DC3s but eventually they got —
AM: Was it a Viscount?
BL: Viscounts.
AM: Right.
BL: Viscounts. That was it. They got the Viscount and then they got the others. What was that called? It was a Dutch plane. F something.
AM: Oh, F-27.
BL: F-27, that’s right.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I knew those so I flew those.
AM: Right. Nice aeroplane.
BL: It was. Yes. And what did I do after that?
AM: Did you not finish on the Boeing?
BL: I might. I finished on the Boeing at Aer Lingus. Yes.
AM: Right. So, it was the first —
BL: When I went to Aer Lingus that was the last employer I had.
AM: Right. And what, was the Boeing 737 the first jet aeroplane you flew?
BL: I would say so. Yes.
AM: I think that’s fantastic.
BL: Yes. I went to the States to convert on to it.
AM: Right.
BL: Yeah. Yeah. So it was, in fact it was the first 737 to be flying in Europe. So it was.
AM: Right.
BL: At that time.
AM: Right. So that’s quite an accolade to go over and pick up the first 737.
BL: Yeah.
AM: And when you retired you were on the Boeing 737.
BL: Yes.
AM: Right.
BL: Yes. I never left them. Oh, well I did actually. I flew the 70, 720 for a while. I did, oh I spent the best part of a year I think, six months or a year as a navigator. They were short of navigators.
AM: Gosh.
BL: At one period when they were flying the Atlantic and they were using the 720 I think it was. And I flew in that as the navigator. Didn’t fly as a pilot.
AM: Right.
BL: I was a navigator because I had my navigator’s licence.
AM: Right.
BL: And then when I finished that section I got moved into the pilot’s seat. The co-pilot, and just continued from there and eventually moved over in to the captain’s seat.
AM: Right.
BL: Finished my time as a captain. I wish in a way you know it was all down in writing and not up here.
AM: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
BL: Because I can’t remember.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I can’t remember now an awful lot. My memory is actually worse now than it used to be.
AM: Bill, it’s a remarkable story and it’s been a great pleasure listening to you, and meeting you and hearing the story of your life.
BL: I’ve been [pause] It’s been an enjoyable life.
AM: Yeah.
BL: I’ve been lucky. Very lucky, with all the different places I went to. Were able to fly from.
AM: Yeah.
BL: With different aircraft.
AM: And flown some lovely aeroplanes. Bill, thank you. I’ll switch that off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Leckie.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alastair Montgomery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-03-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALeckieW190322
PLeckieW1901
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:39:32 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Leckie Bill was born in Glasgow but moved to the countryside as his father suffered from bronchitis. Initially working as a cinema projectionist, Bill joined the Royal Air Force at the age of eighteen, enlisting at St John’s Wood in London as a trainee pilot. Bill undertook basic training at RAF Babbacombe in Devon before being sent overseas to Halifax, Canada. He was then sent onwards to Pensacola for flying training, where his flying training included Stearmans. Bill found aerobatics hard and thought he would prefer flying the flying boats. He flew Catalinas, which he describes as sluggish and slow to respond to control inputs. Bill was then sent back to Harrogate in the United Kingdom waiting for a posting, expecting to be sent to fly flying boats as part of Coastal Command. Instead he was sent to Bomber Command at RAF Little Rissington where he trained on Oxfords before being sent to an operational training unit at RAF Lossiemouth. There he flew Whitleys and Wellingtons. Bill was then posted to 77 Squadron in Harrogate to fly the Halifaxes. With his Scottish crew, he took part in a handful of operations from RAF Elvington and RAF Full Sutton. Later, Bill was flown to Cairo via Gibraltar to join 216 Squadron. Bill was also stationed at Brindisi in Italy, flying the Halifax Mk2 as part of a ‘special duties’ squadron dropping supplies and agents, mainly in the Balkans. He took part in dropping agents sent to recover the Nazi’s looted art works. After the war, Bill returned to his job as a cinema projectionist and then later joined Hoover, working in production. Later, Bill moved to Ireland and flew with the airline Aer Lingus, where he flew several types, including the Douglas DC-3 pilot and Vickers Viscount. Before his retirement, Bill was flying some of the first Boeing 737 jet airliners in Europe, having been trained in the United States.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Andy Shaw
Julie Williams
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Nova Scotia
Nova Scotia--Halifax
United States
Florida
Florida--Pensacola
England--Devon
England--Yorkshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Harrogate
North Africa
Egypt
Egypt--Cairo
Italy
Italy--Brindisi
Ireland
Florida
Great Britain
216 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
C-47
Catalina
crewing up
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Heavy Conversion Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Elvington
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Lossiemouth
Resistance
Special Operations Executive
Stearman
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/307/9640/PMooreWT1508.2.jpg
46d70c19f0283282b575e00c8060bca7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/307/9640/AMooreWT150728.2.mp3
c01c152b10f0fbf9438d9f8a3ee5b0c3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Moore, Bill
William Tait Moore
William T Moore
William Moore
W T Moore
W Moore
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Three oral history interviews with William Tait "Bill" Moore (1924 - 2019, 1823072 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He served as a navigator with 138 Squadron.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-28
2016-03-18
2016-07-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Interview Agreement Form - Moore, WT, William Moore-03
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Moore, WT
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
This is Andrew Sadler interviewing Mr. William (Bill) Moore at his home in Woking on Tuesday 28th July 2015 for the Bomber Command Archive.
AS: Thank you Bill for allowing me to come and interview you.
BM: You’re very welcome indeed.
AS: Can I start with some background information, where and when were you born?
BM: I was born in Dunoon in Scotland on 26th August 1924
AS: And um, can you tell me a bit about your family background?
BM: My, my father was a regimental sergeant major in the Invergyle Southern Highlanders, my grandfather was a chief petty officer in the Navy, we’d twenty two children, I am one of a family of five and, um, I first got in touch with the, err, Royal Air Force as a cadet with the Air Cadet, Air Cadet Association, which was the forerunner of the Air Training Corps.
AS: And presumably your father, was your father involved in the First World War?
BM: Yes my father and my grandfather was in the First World War, my grandfather was also in the Boer War and he was also in the First and Second World War, and my father was in the First World War and he was called up for the Second World War to the Colours and, um, later stood down when the BEF went to France, and he later took over the, what became the Home Guard for the whole of the County of Argyle in Scotland.
AS: Did he talk about his experiences in the First World War?
BM: Yes he um, he was a Royal Scottish Fusiliers and um, he was in quite a number of the big, of the big battles, and, um, then he was taken, he was taken prisoner in late 1917 and he was shipped out to Poland then and, he was wounded in the legs, he was given very good treatment by the German, um, medical people at that time.
AS: And how did you come to join up into the Royal Air Force?
BM: Oh that was through the, the Air Cadets which was the forerunner of the Air Training Corps. The reason for that was I had been a drummer boy in the band of the Argyle’s and um, I fancied the Air Force after having two flights at a place called Montrose quite a long time before the war started.
AS: Can I just stop what, - okay we are restarting now after closing the windows
BM: Right
AS: Noise outside, sorry you were telling me about how you came, you joined the Royal, the Air Cadet Force.
BM: That’s right the Air Cadet Defence Couriers
AS: And why did you do that, what made you interested in?
BM: So it was after I had two flights we’er with the Argyles as a drummer boy in the Band at Montrose on the east coast of Scotland.
AS: And that made you want to fly?
BM: That’s quite correct.
AS: So what year did you actually join up to the Royal Air Force?
BM: Well for the, well it was 1940-41 when I was in the Air Defence Cadet Corps and then of course when the Air Training Corps started I joined that immediately and, err, on the Monday night I joined up and um, of course naturally I had no rank and then the Friday night of that week I was made a flight sergeant in the Air Training Corps, within one week.
AS: And can you tell me how that came about?
BM: Oh the experience of the Air Defence Cadet Corps, that was why.
AS: So can you tell me about your training?
BM: Oh the training in the, in the Air Training Corps. Yes the Air Training Corps we, um, we attended night school classes in the school along with students who were actually full time students of the school, also members of the Air Training Corps and this was taken by Mathematics teachers and English teachers all the way through, and they had become officers in the Air Training Corps, and one gentlemen Mr. Ozzy Broon, he was the maths teacher and very good in navigation and um, he made it all very, very interesting for us and, um, later on I met up with him but that will come into this later on, um, but he was a person who really gave us the foundation in navigation and bringing us up through math and made it interesting for us.
AS: So what age were you at this time?
BM: By that time I was sixteen.
AS: And um, when you joined the Air Force could, you were immediately made a flight sergeant and what sort of work?
BM: No that, no that was just the Air Training Corps I’m talking about, and that was made immediately. Now what happened was that um, we um, when I was, um, seventeen and a quarter I actually volunteered for the Royal Air Force and um, because of my background in the Air Training Corps I, um, had all certificates following examinations that was, um, especially orientated towards air crew, and with that I was selected at Edinburgh to actually join air crew formally and I was given the silver badge and um, became a member of the Royal Air Force on reserve which was actually the, um, Auxiliary Air Force.
AS: And what year would that have been?
BM: That was, that was beginning, the beginning of ‘42, ‘41-‘42 yes.
AS: And can you tell me how you came to be in Bomber Command?
BM: Well that’s quite a story, but I’ll cut it short as much as possible, we, we were invited to London to Lord’s Cricket Ground where we were given the medicals etcetera and passed all these things and tests, various inoculations etcetera, etcetera, and um, we were billeted at Avenue Close, um, and fed at the, at the Zoo there, and of course, um, after a few weeks we actually were sent to Scarborough where I, I joined number 17 flight, of the air crew selection, and um, that was at, that was the beginning of our formal training with the air crew, Royal Air Force, the Royal Air Force. They, um, that was when we conducted drill, navigation, signals, um, engines, everything that you had to do in preparation to become a member of air crew, but not a specialist at that time, you were given that particular course so that you could be able to fit in somewhere along the line, we were actually called PNB, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, at that time. That’s what we were, PNB. We um, I had at that particular time I had a flight and that flight, it was a mixed flight of British, French, Belgians and we graduated, we graduated from there and were given various jobs around Scarborough until I was posted to Scoon, now at Scoon in Scotland that was where we got, we got training on Tiger Moths, and then from there, after that was we, we seemed to be doing all right, we were sent to Brougton in Furness where we, where we did a commando course on, in other words it was an escapees course. If anything happened and you were on the other side then you knew what to do to try and get away, and that was where my army training had come in very good and I was appointed a section leader. After that we were posted to, to Heaton Park, Manchester and that is where we were either billeted on homes around the perimeter of the park or actually in the park. Firstly we were actually on the perimeter with a family and, um, that lasted for about two weeks, and then for about three weeks we were actually billeted in Heaton Park in Manchester, and um, then of course we were given various courses etcetera, etcetera, and, um, during that , during that time you got selected for, for to go for training in different parts of the Commonwealth and Empire. At the beginning I was actually getting posted to go to Rhodesia and the reason we knew that was because of the kit that we were getting, not South Africa but Rhodesia. We got on board the ship in Liverpool and um, on the Mersey, and we got on, we got on board the ship there and, um, it happened to be a ship that I knew very well which was brand new at the beginning of the war and I’ve actually got a model of it here, and um, we, we set sail and, um, one evening I, I was presuming that we near the Bay of Biscay, I turned round and I said to my friend, Alec Kerr, I said ‘Alec this ship is going the wrong way’, he said ‘you and your [inaudible] navigation, how do you know?’ I said ‘I’m looking at the stars’ and we landed back up in Liverpool again, we presumed then of course that the word had got out, that was probably a fleet of U-Boats hovering round about the Bay of Biscay and um, they changed their mind about sending us on that ship, which was called the Andes [spells it out]. We got back into Liverpool and we were there about um, two days on board the Andes, and the next thing we were told that we were being transferred onto another ship and um, I looked across and there was a three funnel boat over there, and, I said to this chap Alec, Alec Kerr, I said ‘Alec that’s a five, three, four over there’ he said ‘what’s a five, three, four?’ I said ‘I’m not telling you that’s a secret’. Well the five, three, four was the Queen Mary, the five, three, four was the number that the Queen Mary had in John Brown’s yard in Scotland, in Glasgow when she was getting built. Anyway we got on board that ship and the next thing we knew that we were in New York and we were there overnight, and the next thing we knew we were on the train and we were bound, bound for Canada and we went all up the, the East Coast of Canada and we arrived at Moncton, New Brunswick, and that was the home station in Canada for air crew who were going to be training under the Commonwealth Air Training Scheme. We were there for ten or twelve days, um, not in winterwear as it was six months of the year in Canada, you get a lot of cold weather and um, they just said ‘oh we don’t know anything about you, we’ll get a message one of these days and we’ll give you some uniform’ , so we walked around there um, at one time I used to say like a [inaudible] nanny, but as I say, in Canada there we walked along like squaws because we covered ourselves in blankets to keep warm, but that was only, that was only a gimmick, once you were inside you were nice and warm. Eventually we got kitted out we with Rhodesian Air Force kit which was very good indeed, it was far superior and a lot more modern than what we had previously, for items like shirts the collars were attached instead of getting two collars with a shirt, the great coats were extremely different and the average cloth was a lot finer, anyways that was one of the good points that we had there. The next thing we knew was that we were, I’d say sent across country and um, that was to be going on to various stations now – this was where our actual training began and we had landed in Moncton and then from there, as I say, we travelled by train across to Dauphin, Manitoba, and Dauphin, Manitoba was just a little bit bigger than a village at that particular time but it was really getting populated with the Royal Air Force and the Royal Canadian Air Force, and um, that is where we had bombing and gunnery courses on Ansons and Bolingbrokes. The Bolingbrokes, of course, was the Canadian/ American version of the Blenheim Mark IV which was a very good aircraft. We graduated from there and we went from there to aye, err, Portage la Prairie, Portage la Prairie, I’ve got photographs here and there we are at Portage la Prairie which is, and was, and still is today, one of the major stations of the Royal Canadian Air Force. I said today because I have met wing commanders and group captains who have just recently been in charge of Portage la Prairie, and that is where we did the Air Observer School, that was Air Observer School Number 7 which is navigation etcetera, etcetera, and that was on Ansons and Cranes. We, err, we had a mixed bunch there of New Zealanders, Canadians, and British and we actually graduated from there and um, that is the photograph of it there see.
AS: And you’re on the front row, second from the left.
BM: That’s right [laughs] yeah. That is when I became an air observer, the air observer, of course, has got another name but in this interview I won’t say what it was called.
AS: You told me before.
BM: [Laughs] that’s exactly what it was, yes. Anyway, as far as we were concerned we err -
AS: I think could I, could I maybe I could say it
BM: Yes
AS: For the record you were known as the flying arseholes.
BM: That’s quite correct [laughs], that is quite correct, yes. Now um, with that, we were, we were given our wings there and that was a great occasion because we were made up to sergeants which was, the lowest rank by that time that you could have as air crew. Quite a lot of people don’t understand and don’t know was that right through, for a couple of years the war was on, there was fellow air crew were either AC2’s or AC1’s or LAC, leading aircraftsman and it was only after a while that the rank of sergeant was introduced for minimum rank for aircrew, there’s quite a number of people never knew about that but um, having come through the air cadets etcetera, etcetera, we knew people who were actually flying in operations who were leading aircraftsman and had done quite a number of operations as such and were never recognised as anything else. If they got shot down they never got promotion, they were still at the end of the war leading aircraftsmen. Then um, from Portage la Prairie, um, we got a jaunt down, down to America, I think it was just a matter of, they didn’t know what to do with us for a while and we went down to Florida, and we were flying on Catalina Flying Boats and doing maritime navigation which, from a place called Pensacola. We were there a few weeks and the next thing we knew we were back to Moncton, New Brunswick in Canada, and of course there wasn’t six feet of snow this time, it was a lovely spring cum summer day in Canada. We, we were there for just a few weeks and um, we were told we could have two kit bags and we said ‘why two kit bags?’, ‘well one kit bag you can travel with and if you get a flight back to the UK then that other kit bag will be sent on to you later on’. I was quite happy in one way, I didn’t need to fly back, I got on board a ship and then we were taken from Moncton, New Brunswick to Halifax, Nova Scotia. And when we got to Nova Scotia I recognised the ship and I said to my friend, I said ‘oh I don’t like that one’ and he said ‘why is that Bill?’ I said ‘because that’s the Empress of Japan’, he said ‘what!’, I said ‘yeah that’s the Empress of Japan’. Anyway we got on the ship and by that time it was called the Empress of Scotland, they had changed its name during the war from the Empress of Japan to the Empress of Scotland, and we boarded that and we were put onto D deck which is a long way down and um, when we, we tried to get up for the, for the boat drill for emergencies we found that we were only halfway up, so anyway we thought of a plan. If there is going to be an emergency and they want us up on deck why don’t we try and get a place to sleep on deck because it was summertime, anyway we weren’t allowed that. Anyway we eventually landed in the Clyde and from the Clyde we, we got on the train and we went to Harrogate in Yorkshire, and we were held at Yorkshire, in Harrogate for a short time and um, from there I was sent over to Halfpenny Green. Now Halfpenny Green was a mixed unit it was, a normal navigation advanced school for navigators so and there was also an advanced school navigating on, what will I say, um, yeah, this was to become a specialist on map reading, not just normal navigation a specialist on navigation by map reading and that was the section that I was detailed for. When I asked the ‘chiefy’ why I was a chosen, he said ‘why’ he says ‘because we found out that you’re a country boy’, ‘Oh,’ I said ‘that’s nice’, he said ‘also you’ve been around quite a bit’, I said ‘oh thank you very much’. Anyway, ‘chiefy’, the reason I called him ‘chiefy’ was because he was a flight sergeant and the reason you called them a ‘chiefy’ was because when the Royal Air Force and the Naval Service had been amalgamated during the First World War, a lot of the people from the Naval side came across and they were Chief Prison err, Chief um, Chief Petty Officers and they were the chaps who became the first flight sergeants in the Royal Air Force and the name ‘chiefy’ has been there ever since, ‘cos’ if you called someone a ‘chiefy’ today they wonder what the hell you are talking about, but anyway we could often make a few bets on that one, that’s on the side. But Halfpenny Green, we were flying there on the advanced Ansons, Mk V Ansons, which um, had completely closed bombing doors etcetera, etcetera, and of course it was ideal for map reading because your maps weren’t getting thrown about in the lower part of the cockpit when you are trying to do the map reading, but we didn’t realise why it was done, but in the Air Force, once you joined up, you volunteered ever after that, you did what you was told. Right now, I managed to go through that course, came through with very good marks and um, I was then posted to Desborough, um, at Desborough. We were crewed up and that was part of a Wellington crew and um, also flying there I was flying as second dickie, in other words we only had one pilot and um, I got the job within the crew of being the person to be able to, err, take off and land and of course do a bit of flying in between, in case of emergency I could always land the Wellington. That was because of the position and the type of training that we had got in the past. Now from, from Desborough we um, we were transferred to various stations and where I went to, I went to a place called Tempsford. Now Tempsford was one of Churchill’s most secret aerodromes, airfields, when you got there you had to, you had to sign the Official Secret Act which was slightly different from the one that you normally took. In other words this was top secret, anything you said outside of that aerodrome you could be held responsible, and taken into custody, or shot, if it was got the wrong way. The reason for that that came up during your last week of being at Tempsford. Now at Tempsford we, we were crewing with various people, the reason I say that is because being an observer from time to time I wasn’t with the, the same, same pilot, although for some time I was with a chap called Neil Noble and also with err, a young PO who was a chap called Murray, anyway that was very good indeed. Noble was from New Zealand, and err, he was an excellent chap and he was also a country boy and he was excellent for the type of flying that we were doing and likewise was Murray. Now what happened was that during that time at Tempsford that is where we did flying of taking people out and into France, quite often it was on, it was on Lysanders and you didn’t have much room in Lysanders because err, it being a small one engine aircraft and you were flying low and you were actually taking these people into France. It wasn’t the first time that we had to bring people back from France and on various occasions, the group had actually brought back four gentleman who later on became Premiers of France and they actually also were leading lights in the resistance movement, what we called the Maquis. Now one of the things that happened at Tempsford was that um, we later on had an aircraft and this aircraft was called a Hudson, now that Hudson was an aircraft, American one, which was designed to land on the prairies in America. It was heavily undercarriaged and it was ideal for what we did, it was a way from the Lysander with the single engine and was a twin engine aircraft and what was happening there was that we were carrying a lot of heavy goods for the Maquis. That was the bombs, sticky bombs, all sorts of bombs like that, grenades, ammunition, weapons, oh up to medium sized weapons which they could use without using vehicles to carry them about. Now there was one particular trip when we were on the Hudson and we were on one of the airfields that had been selected by the Maquis, now what had happened was the Maquis people, quite a number of them, had been brought over to the UK and they were given special training as to get airfields that we could land in, the idea being was that the drop zones or picking up and laying down of agents, and it was essential that they were kept on this secret list ‘cos only a few minutes normally that we were on the ground. On this particular occasion what happened was that we came into land and we landed very well, we got to top of the, I call it run section, we turned round and as we turned round we began to sink in the mud, well it felt like mud to us, I suppose it was only a wet piece of ground, and we sank down, and um, I said to the skipper, ‘oh were in trouble’, he said ‘oh we’ll get off all right’, so anyway the Maquis arrived and they got all their stuff out and um, the leading agent there was a lady and she cleared an area, got all the Maquis away and we were ready to take off and then we realised that we couldn’t get out the mud, or whatever it was. So anyway we were about ready for to put the bomb in the air trap and blow it up and then get the hell out of there, but anyway she said ‘no’ she said, ‘we think we’ll get you out of there all right’ and she got the people from a nearby village to come to try and help us out because they were on their way up they met what they call the German sergeant who was in charge of the village and he said ‘right where are you people going?’, ‘oh your big black aircraft, your big black aircraft is on the ground there and if we don’t get it out of the mud the Gestapo is going to shoot us and they’ll shoot you as well’. So his retort was back to hers was that he would look after the village, they could go and get the aircraft out, so anyway the people got all sorts of equipment and we managed to take off again, that was the longest that we were ever on the ground until a few years later, it certainly felt like hours and hours and hours but was, it was just over an hour and a quarter on the ground which was an extremely long period and we got away.
AS: Was this work part of what was known as part of the Special Operations Executive?
BM: We were working with the SOE, yes that’s exactly what we were doing. Now that was one of the moments where various escapades like that but that that was the one of the longest times on the ground. Quite often we landed in a field and of course one or two of the fields had been used in the past for gliders but of course nobody had been near them in years, not even the Germans had used them and that was why they, the Maquis, had actually selected them for us, and they had um, they hadn’t done any work on them as such just hoping that the odd tree stump or that, that we landed in was, would be avoided which they were quite good. There was quite often a brush, as we called it, on the ground but we managed to sweep that aside when you are landing and take off. Now the thing about that was that um, the area dropping and picking up and laying down of agents was essentially an extreme secret list and only a few minutes were allowed between knowing the target area and the take off and only the crew members concerned knew exactly where. As little contact as possible was allowed between any agents and the crew, I don’t care what people say, Americans and different books nowadays I will call them ‘Joes’, as far as we were concerned we had as little contact as possible so that if anything happened to them or happened to us we couldn’t divulge anything and neither could they, because later on Hitler had said that anybody with knowledge of the situation would be shot as spies, so as little contact as possible was allowed between any agents and the crews. The airfield contacts or landings were seldom used again and again, although there were one of two were very suitable among them was Paris and Chateauroux and various other ones, these were the favourite ones that they were ones that were used quite a few times.
AS: When you were working, when you were on those flights you were acting as an observer?
BM: An observer yes.
AS: And what was the role of the observer?
BM: An observer was, it was a navigator but also you did everything, you did everything.
AS: So, you were a backup if something?
BM: That’s right. The observer learnt to fly, that was one of the other things an observer did, later on of course that was taken over by, on the bigger aircraft, by the flight engineer, but in the early days that was the observer that did that, aye. Now later on, later on during the war once it became apparent with the advance of the allies in France, the role of 138 Squadron and 161 Squadron was diminishing so what happened then was that 138 Squadron we went back to Bomber Command and with that we went to Langar where we actually um, we actually flew on Lancasters and then the Lancasters and then of course we were, I’d say we were part and parcel of the Bomber Command operations and that was from Tuddenham, and at Tuddenham we lay alongside 90 Squadron which was one of the main, main squadrons that occupied Tuddenham right through during the war.
AS: And what year was that, that you became part of Bomber Command?
BM: That was beginning that was the beginning of ‘44-‘45 and that was from, we started there, the actual squadron according, according to the history, was that everything came into being in March of 1945 but of course it was long before that we were [inaudible] but that’s just from the history books. Later the events all changed and we were sent to Langar to receive conversant to Lancasters, which turned out to be the light of my life as the aircraft which was the one that I favoured best, and from Langar we went to Feltwall, Mildenhall, Methwold, and Stradishall for other special duty training and eventually to Tuddenham. We took part in many of the operations but on the big one to Potsdam our Wing Commander Murray took over as captain of the night. Now that Wing Commander Murray was a pilot officer that I flew with, aye, early in my career with 138 Squadron and he became eventually the, the squadron leader, wing commander for 138 squadron, he took charge of that. Along came the Operation Manna which gave us great pleasure in being part of and likewise to Juvincourt where we brought home many of our fellow air crew members who had been prisoners of war, and after a few weeks of PRDU work at Tuddenham we were allowed to transfer to RAF Benson where we took over our own Lancasters and became part of the operating across Europe and photographing the whole of Europe for um, the secret stations that Churchill had wanted when he was Prime Minister. So that was there crew there, the other air crew in Bomber Command where we did all our operations.
AS: And were you still working as an observer at this stage?
BM: Yes, yes
AS: You were still an observer?
BM: Aye
AS: And this is your crew next to a Lancaster?
BM: Yes, that’s the crew that we eventually had, yes.
AS: And which one is you Bill?
BM: [laughs] Probably go with the height you’ll maybe get me, [laughs] can you recognise me?
AS: I think you are the one on the left on that side on the right.
BM: Yes that’s me [laughs], that there the tallest one actually became the rear gunner .
AS: And were you always with the same crew?
BM: Once we, once we got to Tuddenham we were all with the same crew yes.
AS: So these are the same, so this is the same people?
BM: That’s right yeah.
AS: And obviously you all made it through the war?
BM: Oh yes.
AS: ‘Cos a lot did not.
BM: No, that is quite correct we were lucky.
AS: So when you were on the bombing raid can you tell me exactly what your role would have been?
BM: Oh we were, there were two things so we acted as a full navigator and sometimes as an electronic navigator and also a bomb aimer as well ‘cos we were qualified to do all these jobs.
AS: So you moved from one role?
BM: One role to another yeah.
AS: To another.
BM: In our crew everybody could do everything else except on the Lancasters. The skipper Neil Noble and, and myself were doing the flying, and also our flight engineer ‘cos he only joined us on the Lancasters ‘cos when we were flying in the Wellingtons and that we didn’t have, we didn’t have a flight engineer. The flight engineer were only brought on when we started with the Stirlings and Halifaxes and then the Lancasters.
AS: Can you tell me what it was like to fly the Lancasters as opposed to the Wellingtons?
BM: Oh yes, it was a much easier aircraft to fly than even the Wellingtons and the Wellington was a good one to fly.
AS: In what way was it easier?
BM: Well the, the, the controls were simpler, it was easier to control them than it was some of the former aircraft.
AS: And can you describe the procedure when you went on a bombing raid?
BM: Right, well what happened was once you were crewed and once you had done a few operations like mine laying and things like that, minor operations and then of course you were selected by crews that you moved up the ladder a bit and then of course you were formally taken on to the, I would say, the senior strength of the squadron, but our squadron did not like to put rookie crews onto the heavy stuff at first, you got a baptism of fire by, as I say, doing the mine laying jobs and various other ones which you weren’t so likely to have been involved in heavy enemy fire etcetera, etcetera. We were thankful for that because you were given that training and there was actually training in the actual thing. So what happened was that once you, once you were there then of course you had briefings where the whole crew was together, then of course you had briefings where there was selected sections of the aircrew, mainly the pilot, navigator, and quite often the flight engineer and radio operator were involved. When we were doing special duties with Lancaster’s we had the whole crew together ‘cos we felt as if everybody should know exactly what’s going on and not be a surprise to anybody with what we were doing because quite often there was raids that was known to only a section of a squadron and sometimes a full squadron, whereas if it wasn’t a joint operations with the other squadrons, or the other squadron are out and you lay down so that was how it went, but you were actually given as much information as possible about the targets, about where you were going, the flight, the enemy aircraft etcetera, etcetera.
AS: How many missions did you fly with Bomber Command?
BM: About thirty six.
AS: That was quite a lot wasn’t it?
BM: Yes it was quite a lot.
AS: It sounds as if you were lucky to pull through because?
BM: I was extremely lucky, I was extremely lucky, because with 138 Squadron we had, we had quite a [long pause, shuffling papers], with 138 Squadron, 138 Squadron had taken in nine hundred and ninety five agents, they’d taken in twenty nine thousand containers and they’d taken in over ten thousand packages. We lost seventy aircraft and three hundred aircrew, our motto was ‘for freedom’, that was 138 Squadron you know.
AS: Yes you had different people on different stations?
BM: Right, now also what did happen was that with 138 Squadron we had a flight of Poles, Polish chaps. Now what happened with them was that they was declared by the German forces that if the Poles were shot down they were to be treated as spies, so I didn’t like the idea of that and all the ones on our flight I taught them a bit of Gaelic, I gave them little addresses from on all the outer isles on the west of Scotland and I gave them Scottish names, and I told them if they got shot down they would have to use them as identification plus their rank and number, and I, ‘cos I do know that quite a number of them actually survived like that because they pretended to be Scottish, Gaelic, and where they pointed to on the map was where they came from and it was a real island but I gave them all different islands, and of course when they were on the squadron if they spoke to anybody they had to say who they were and not who they were in Polish.
AS: And why the Poles singled out for special harsh treatment?
BM: Oh because their country had been occupied by the Germans. They took it that they were, if they did that they were actually against them that was the end of it.
AS: Mmm, when you um, when you were flying with Bomber Command how often, you said you had thirty six missions, how far apart were they, were you?
BM: Well sometimes you might be on three nights in a row, sometimes it might be two, two in one week, but it was surprising just how much, just how of course some operations like mine laying and things like that were considered quite minor ones so you probably fitted them in in between times.
AS: And went you weren’t actually flying when you were on the ground how did you occupy your time?
BM: We kept ourselves fit, we played a lot of squash or we played a lot of rugby that was the two things we did as a crew because we could play together, and we were together, we were a crew.
AS: And when you were not flying you stuck together as a
BM: As a crew yes. We used to have, in the Nissen huts, we normally had two crews to the hut and we pretty well stuck together.
AS: And what sort of conditions were you living in, was it, were they good conditions or?
BM: Well, well when we were one squadron there was err, there was a Nissen hut set of accommodation which was two crews, as I say two crews about fourteen men to a hut and a potbelly stove in the middle and then of course your, your, your mess and that on the squadron was a Nissen type building. There was one or two squadrons which were peacetime ones, the RAF Benson was a peacetime one and there’s still peacetime one, but Methwold and quite a few of these other ones were established pre-war and the accommodation was slightly better, but anything that was rushed up during the war time was normally the Nissen huts.
AS: Now after the war, what, how did you, what happened after the war?
BM: Well what happened after the war, like what I said earlier on, was that we did some PRDU work from Tuddenham.
AS: What’s PRDU work?
BM: That’s Post RAF Reconnaissance.
AS: Ah.
BM: What we didn’t realise it was like a programme to see if we were suitable to do the job and there was three crews were picked, three, with their aircraft and we were sent over to RAF Benson and we then came under PRDU people there and, err, we photographed the whole of Europe, north to south and east to west, and we photographed the likes of the city of London, and other big cities from two thousand feet. Towns like Woking and this area would be from about five-six thousand feet and um, then the general countryside was anything from ten to twenty thousand feet, and we did that for the whole of Europe. We also had bases all over the country and also had bases in Norway, bases in South of France and various places like that, so what we actually did was that at one time, one time we landed at one, one particular station and it had been used as a transit camp and we woke up in the morning scratching like hell and we found out we had scabies so of course that was us isolated. We go back to our own station and we were isolated by the, by the medical people until we got rid of it, and then we, what we said, wherever we went after that we took our own kit with us so we didn’t get scabies.
AS: And this would have been after 1945 you were doing this?
BM: Yes
AS: And how long did you stay in the RAF for?
BM: Middle of 1946.
AS: And, and what did you do after you left?
BM: Well I went back into the building industry, and um, it wasn’t that long before I went to Rhodesia where I was supposed to have gone with the with the Royal Air Force and the idea there was that a federation was starting up between Nyasaland, Northern Rhodesia and Southern Rhodesia, and um, I went out there and I went out as a general building foreman, and instead of staying four years with the company that I worked for I stayed fifty years. I built schools, universities, colleges, hundreds of local houses, all over the territories, and then of course gradually it worked out that Rhodesia was the only one that didn’t get its independence, Nyasaland 1963, Nyasaland was given independence then and became Malawi, and more or less at the same time Northern Rhodesia, which had been a Crown Colony run from Britain, they also had theirs, but Southern Rhodesia, which became Rhodesia, had been a self-governing colony since 1926 and they were not granted independence. And what happened was in 1926 there had been a vote there to say if whether they were going to pick up as a province in South Africa or stay as Rhodesia as an independent self-governing colony and the vote was to stay as Rhodesia self-governing colony, so if they’d had went the other way it would have been a province of South Africa.
AS: So what year did you come back to the United Kingdom?
BM: I only came back twelve years ago.
AS: Oh gosh. So have you, after the end of the war have you kept in contact with your crew mates?
BM: Oh yes, well I’ll tell you what, Jimmy Dugg, his great grandson is Israel Dugg who played full back for the All Blacks against the Springboks on Saturday and various other ones.
AS: So you kept in contact with them?
BM: Oh yes.
AS: Did you, um, I mean after the war?
BM: What happened in Rhodesia, put it this way what happened there was that I had, in the short term, I had reinstated the family business in the building trade, I found out that the contracts were not being run honestly as far as I was concerned and that’s when I said to my brothers ‘you can have the company I’m going abroad’, I had thoughts for Canada, I had thoughts for Australia, I had thoughts for New Zealand, and at the time they wanted people to go to what was going to become the Central African Federation, um, and that’s where I decided to go to. I had no regrets, no regrets at all. I was there from 1952-53 right up until I came here, came back here and that was in 2003, but during that time, as I said before, I built schools and hospitals and other things all the way through. I even, in 1960 the Queen Mother had come out previously and laid the foundation stone of the hospital in Blantyre, Nyasaland which she named the Queen Elizabeth Hospital then she came back in 1960 and declared it open, now of course it wasn’t just a hospital it was like a major township around the hospital that we built that what took us so long, anyway what did happen when we had a ball at Zumba, the capital, after she had declared it open etcetera, etcetera, and the following the morning the Governor, Glynn Jones came to me and said ‘I’ve got a job for you’ I said ‘No, no, no I don’t need no freebies sir’, he said ‘it’s for the old lady’, I said ‘what’s that’, he said ‘I want you to build a racecourse for her,’ I said ‘what! I don’t know anything about building racecourses’, he said ‘go and find a plan somewhere’ he says ‘I want you to build a racecourse for her’, I said ‘all right how long have I got?’ he said ‘you’ve got ten days’. So anyway I got my own crew which was about fifty-sixty chaps and I went along to Zumba Prison and I got hundred bandits from there, short term bandits, and I asked for all the ones who had been Queen Victoria men, or King George men, or Kind Edward men, people like that and I got volunteers and I looked after them. I said they would be rewarded which they were, properly and kindly, etcetera, etcetera, and we did the job, and instead of what you do today, putting up things in canvas, I did it all in pole and thatch, and um, she, what happened is that she went on the Ilala which is the ship that plies up and down Lake Nyasa, and Lake Nyasa is three hundred and sixty five miles long and fifty two miles wide and there are various ports along it that the Ilala used to either go into or stand off and it used to take cattle, people passengers, VIP’s everything, there were ten or twelve cabins on it so it wasn’t a small one. It was actually built in, in Scotland and taken out in pieces to a place called Monkey Bay where it was put back together again and floated on Lake Nyasa and she has been going there ever since [laughs].
AS: Excellent. Can I um [end]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Moore. One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Andrew Sadler
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-28
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:10:53 Audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMooreWT150728
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
William Moore was born in Dunoon, Scotland in August 1924 and joined the Royal Air Force after spending some time in the Air Cadet Defence Corps and in the Air Training Corps. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force at the age of 17 and completed his training in Canada, after which he qualified as an air observer.
William flew Ansons and Cranes and learned navigation in America on Catalina flying boats. He also tells of flying Lysanders and transporting agents for the Special Operations Executive into France. He also tells how he helped Polish airmen with different information to keep them safe if they crashed.
William flew a number of aircraft including the Lancaster, Stirlings and Halifaxes at different locations and was on 36 operation with Bomber Command, taking part in Operation Manna. He served with 138 Squadron and 161 Squadron. He also tells of his life after the war, when he went to live in Rhodesia where he helped to run the family business before returning to Great Britain in 2003.
Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
United States
France
Germany
Netherlands
England--Bedfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Staffordshire
Zimbabwe
Africa--Lake Nyasa
138 Squadron
161 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aerial photograph
aircrew
Anson
Catalina
flight engineer
Halifax
Hudson
Lancaster
Lysander
navigator
observer
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Photographic Reconnaissance Unit
RAF Benson
RAF Desborough
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Tempsford
RAF Tuddenham
reconnaissance photograph
Resistance
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/307/3464/PMooreWT1506.2.jpg
ba450a2587f7d4bdd809b39eda3c5fa9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/307/3464/AMooreWT160703.2.mp3
6fa0b673061052f9a9f442da1a4176b2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Moore, Bill
William Tait Moore
William T Moore
William Moore
W T Moore
W Moore
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Three oral history interviews with William Tait "Bill" Moore (1924 - 2019, 1823072 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He served as a navigator with 138 Squadron.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-28
2016-03-18
2016-07-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Interview Agreement Form - Moore, WT, William Moore-03
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Moore, WT
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
TO: Right, good morning, good afternoon or good evening, whatever the case may be. This interview is being filmed for the International Bomber Command Centre. The gentleman I’m interviewing is Mr Bill Moore. My name is Thomas Ozel and we’re recording this interview on the 3rd of July 2016. Now, could you please tell me what year you were born?
WM: 1924.
TO: Mhm. And when you were a child, were you interested in aircraft?
WM: The first time I was introduced to the aircraft was when I was taken to Guyun [?] Southern Highlander’s annual camp and that was when I came in contact with my, my first aircraft. And at that time, I was a drummer [?] boy in a band [?], and at that time my father had made me eighteen month older and I was supposed to be because otherwise I would have been too young to have went to the camp with men. As a matter of fact, that eighteen months stood by me for the rest of my life.
TO: And whereabouts did you grow up?
WM: I grew up in a town called Dunoon which is on the Firth of Clyde in Argyllshire in Scotland.
TO: And were your parents involved in the First World War?
WM: My father was, yes. As a matter of fact I just told somebody the other day, that I knew where my father was a hundred years ago. In other words, he was right through the whole of the First World War. He was a great battles, the Battles of Boulogne [?], first and the second one, and also the one that was also celebrated this week. And then he was actually taken prisoner by German forces and he was taken to Poland, and he worked in Poland there and that was, and that was until the armistice came along. In other words, he had about, he about between six and nine months as a prisoner of war, mm.
TO: And what was your first job?
WM: My first job, all depends how you mean your first job. If you mean your first job when you started doing [emphasis] something and getting paid for it, well I was delivering milk and newspapers in the morning. Later on I delivered butcher, butcher meats and I delivered the evening papers, and among one of the most famous characters I delivered to was Sir Harry Lauder, who was a very famous Scottish singer and comedian. And every time I went there I got a farthing [emphasis] each time, which meant that I got a fully penny in one day, but that was four farthings. And I did that from, from Monday to Saturday. And anyway, after that of course I left school, but I left school when I was thirteen. The reason I left school when I was thirteen was because it was during the Great Depression years and every penny my family could earn was to be encouraged because people needed it to survive [emphasis], although my father was always in work, but that was about it because I used to come in. And that was what my mother saved the money so that I could have my school books paid for, instead of, instead of waiting for someone to pass on second hand books to me.
TO: And in the 1930s, did you hear about Hitler’s aggressive behaviour?
WM: Well yes. As a matter of fact, of course I did, but it was quite, quite strange. Go back further than that, when I was a young boy, I was in what we called the Boys Brigade, which was just an organisation but it was started, it started way back in 1883 by a chap called William Smith, and the uniform they had then [emphasis] was, was taken more or less from the Third Lanark Rifle Volunteers in Scotland. It wasn’t military but the idea was for discipline, because in those days Scotland, Scotland and discipline was two things that people wanted, although with me, that was many years later. I did not meet Sir William Smith himself but I knew both of his sons who carried on the Boys Brigade after him, and also I met Mrs McVicker in Belfast in Northern Ireland when I used to take the Boys Brigade myself [emphasis] over there, and that, that was, she was the, she was the wife of the founder of the Boys Brigade in Northern Ireland. When I joined the Boys Brigade it was through the Life Boys, which was a genuine organisation. I went through there and I went right through the Boys Brigade, and at my age, I’m still a member of the Boys Brigade Greater World Fellowship.
TO: Would you mind if I just closed the window?
WM: No, carry on, yeah.
TO: Is that okay?
WM: Oh, you might get the traffic, yeah.
TO: Yeah, is that okay?
WM: Yeah, carry on [pause while window is closed]. That’s okay.
TO: Okay, thank you. And what did you think, what did you think of Chamberlain?
WM: Well first of all, going back before Chamberlain’s time and before he was making speeches, what I was saying is we used to look at news reels and we used to see about all the equipment that the German boys and girls were getting, and at times we were quite envious of it, because there was gymnastics, there was gymnastics, I was swimming, I was hiking, I was doing all these same things as, as a, the German Youth were there. Maybe not so severely [emphasis], but that was where the Boys Brigade, as I’ve just said.
TO: Mhm. Sorry, there’s a noise coming from the kitchen. Is it okay if I shut the door to there as well?
WM: Yes, yes, yes –
TO: Sorry [door closes].
WM: Can you stick that through?
TO: Sorry.
WM: You could get a nickel [?].
TO: Yeah [pause during continued background noise]. Sorry about this, sorry. And what did you think of the Munich Agreement?
WM: Well, put it, put it this way. What did happen was that I think growing up at that particular time, we weren’t really interested too much in politics, but then we began to gather that things were getting rather serious. And the big thing that was going around at that time was, was people sincere? And there’d been so many promises broken that, and I’m talking about Scotland now, was the people in Scotland at that time just said, ‘well if, if these people keep on breaking promises, what’s, what’s the Prime Minister going to do? Is he going to be leaving it [could be believing it].’ And of course, it seems, it seemed to us at that particular time that he was being foreborstered [?], brainwashed and as if he was being used as, as they all were in those days was, is a patsy.
TO: And what did you think of Churchill?
WM: Well, Churchill in the early days was quite a hero [emphasis] because he was a type of fellow who had been through the Boer War, he’d been through the, through the First World War and of course he was still a fiery rebel as far as politics were going as, at that time in the UK.
TO: And do you remember the preparations that were being made for war?
WM: Well, it all depends on who’s side you mean, because the big thing that we noticed, and that was that where, where the German forces were going over [?], taking over different places. Some of them were, were considered to be German lands of former times, but, but even when they came to Austria and they were welcomed into Austria, at times we wondered whether there were other people there who weren’t quite happy about it, with this, you know? But it wasn’t ‘til, it wasn’t ‘til as we say, clouds [?] are going that, and horizon, as if the, all the promises that were given, made were just null and void. The reason we said that was at that particular time was because the fact was that even, even being with Chamberlain, trying to negotiate [emphasis], and of course France as well were negotiations to see if they could actually bring about a more sensible [emphasis] approach, ‘cause people like my father said that the terms of various things that had been laid in after [emphasis] the First World War were so severe that it was almost impossible for the, for the German people not [emphasis] to revolt against these conditions, and of course this is what people were thinking in the UK at that particular time, was that that’s what they were trying to do was just to regain what had been lost. But of course later on when it came into the, these negotiations that they had, nobody was very sure [emphasis] whether that Chamberlain was playing for time or not. It could have been, it could have been a great strategy on his [emphasis] part. Many people think it was, many people think that he was quite gullible. But if one reads on the history of the Royal Air Force, well the Royal Air Force was starting an amalgamation between the, the Fleet Air Arm, or the Naval Services. The Naval Service became the Royal Air Force and that was 1918. Now, with that coming on, we noticed as young people, we noticed that there was different things happening [emphasis], and also, I remember at one time I noticed that the, the talk was about different types of aircraft, ‘cause that was through the magazine I used to subscribe to. And then of course what happened, I was in the school cadets in my grammar school in Dunoon and we, we were the Army cadets, and of course we wore the kilt et cetera, the same as the local Hern [?] Division, and the Guyun [?] Southern Highlanders. Anyway, I, I started thinking about aeroplanes and there was an organisation just started up which was called the Air Defence Cadet Corps. Well this Air Defence Corps, Cadet Corps, the nearest place to Dunoon where I was, was at what is now Glasgow Airport, and I had to find a handout, to find the money for to go in the boat and train and go up there and attend the lectures et cetera what was necessary to do to be a member of the Air Defence Cadet Corps. Anyway, of course along came different aircraft that we saw, and the, the first of the new [emphasis] ones that I saw and touched was the Wellington Bombers, and that Wellington Bomber came up to me, to Abbotsinch, which is, as I said, Glasgow Airport. Abbotsinch I managed to walk through it and I was absolutely taken with it. As a matter of fact I felt as if I’d fallen in love with it. And then of course what happened, things went from one to another, and then of course along came, along came the Polish incident and with that Polish incident of course it was followed very closely in Scotland because the people of Scotland, people of Poland were always very close [emphasis]. A lot of people don’t realise [emphasis] that but it was a fact, because I always remember that they used to send boxes of eggs from Poland and what we used to do, we used to buy these boxes, these crates, and we’d turn them into canoes that we, that we lined with canvas, and we used to sail in the Clyde. But that, you know, that was, that was our knowledge of in Poland on that day, apart from what I’d been told by my father. Anyway, what happened was along came, along came, as I say, with the trouble in Poland, and of course, then of course the First World, the Second World War started and at that time, being in the Boys Brigade and being in the Air Cadet Defence Corps, I was nominated as a member of the ARP, the Air Raids Precautions people, as a messenger. Then that was fine, that was alright but I still had to go to my lessons with the Cadets, but that was alright, everybody carried on. That carried on and then of course along came, along came 1941 [emphasis] and that was when the Air Training Corps started, and I, I went along. I had to say I was finished with the Air Defence Cadet Corps which everybody else [emphasis] was, and we signed up for the Air Training Corps. That was quite strange, that was on a Monday night, and I went back along on the Friday [emphasis] night at the first official meeting, and we fell in and we fell in ranks according to sizes et cetera, et cetera, and I was made a flight sergeant. And the reason was that, I asked them and said ‘oh no, you’ve had training [emphasis] in the Air Defence Cadet Corps, so you know probably more about it than instructors do,’ because they were all school teachers who had volunteered to do that cadet work, and of course being made a flight sergeant, without uniform of course, it took a wee while to get uniforms, but that was it, and that was, that was me well and truly a part of the Royal Air Force. Anyway, that went down very well and I passed all the examinations. My aim was to become a member of aircrew. I fancied that, not just the glamour of it but there was a practical side. Anyway the, along came a day when I went along to Edinburgh and I took all my papers, exam papers and everything else, and bearing in mind that I was a year and a half older than I was on paper than I was supposed to be, and when I got into Edinburgh the chap says to me, ‘are you sure [emphasis]?’ I said ‘yes.’ He said ‘what you were doing?’ So I told him, he says ‘oh, that seems alright,’ he says ‘alright,’ he says ‘we want you to go along to this hotel and you stay there and you come back here in the morning, and you go there and you find that you’ll be registered and et cetera, et cetera.’ So I did that, go back there the next day and there were one or two other chaps around that I knew, and we, we went in again [emphasis] and we had exams to take and tests to take and, a by the time the day was finished I was a member of the Royal Air Force, and what they did to us was that they gave us a little silver badge that we, we had to wear at all times. And that was to show that we were a fully fledged member of the Royal Air Force, and all we had to do then was just wait until they were ready to take us in [emphasis]. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t being called up for National Service, we were all volunteers of course, which is a big difference because we were already members, voluntary members, and of course the, joining the Air Force like that you volunteered. But as I say, after that, once you’re in, you didn’t get to volunteer again [laughs]. You, you’re then volunteered [emphasis, laughs].
TO: And do you remember what you were doing on the day the war started?
WM: The day the war started, yes [tape beeps]. It was a Sunday morning and I was at a bible class in Dunoon, and shortly after that the sirens went and we all had to go to a post. And with us at that particular time, as I say, I was with the ARP. So we had to go there and be ready for to, for to be messengers. That was what, that was what my job was then, to be a messenger [emphasis], so I had to go to my post, which we all knew where we had to go to, and that was it. But after the all clear went then we stood down again, no, mm. But of course there was, was times when there were raids on the Clyde and all the rest of it later on, and my compatriots had a lot of hair raising activities. Most of that by that time I was, I was in the Royal Air Force.
TO: And was there much bomb damage or bombing around where you lived?
WM: Well, not so much on my [emphasis] side of the Clyde but across the water on the Firth, right from Greenock and Glasgow, Greenock and Port Glasgow, right up the Clyde, right up to Clydebank into Glasgow itself. Oh yes, all the industrial areas. There was quite a lot of very heavy damage, yes.
TO: And when the war started, were you, were you expecting that German bombers would be coming on the first day?
WM: Oh yes, well that was, that was it. It wasn’t, it wasn’t long after that there was a couple of raids that was, that was, that came across Scotland before there was even, even them in England, yes.
TO: And how did you actually feel when you heard the war had started?
WM: Well, put it this way, with having quite a knowledge from my father about his experiences, and what we had, what we had actually seen on the news reels about Poland, and I really mean about Poland, that was when we realised what could happen, yeah.
TO: And did you watch news reels a lot at the cinema?
WM: Oh yes, oh yes. Yeah, when you went to the, when you went to the cinemas there was always, always a portion for the news reels at the beginning of every performance, and that was very good. The news reels were very good, they, they brought everything to you, mm [papers shuffle].
TO: And so when you volunteered for aircrew, what kind of medical tests did they give you?
WM: Well, you had, you had a full medical. You know, you had blood, heart, you had all sorts of things done and then, you even had a type, a place where it was called up [?] on night vision. We never knew about night vision in those days and we were told, told about that and you had a test to see whether you could, you could see and come back again and your vision – you had, you were taken into a darkened room and they had various sort of tests they gave you in there, including different things and different numbers and the results was in different colours [emphasis], and if you, if you, if you could identify these things through these different colours then that meant that your, that your night vision was quite good, and you passed and you could identify then, then you’re dropped out. ‘Cause that was one of the main things at that particular time, was night vision.
TO: And what role did you train for aboard, in aircrew?
WM: Sorry?
TO: What, what position, as in, were you trained for?
WM: Well you see, when I went to Edinburgh I was classified PNB, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, you know, the idea being that you selected for that term [?]. Anyway, what happened then was that I was called, called to the colours, not called up, I was called to the colours which once again, as I say, was different from being called up for National Service, very proud of that of course. Anyway, I, I got a notification to go to London and there I went to, to Lords Cricket Ground and, with many other people. There was one or two people that I’d met on the train, met down there before, went inside and some of these fellows I still know today, which is quite amazing. Anyway, what happened there in, in, at Lourdes, you – and there is a big plaque there today, big black plaque indicating that was where the aircrew was at that particular time. Going back to that, we had further [emphasis] tests and, I suppose to see whether anything had happened in between times, and then we, we got all the usual jabs for left and right, two arms up together and that one and that one going along r at the same time and, and then you had FFIs and things like that, and then of course you came along to another [emphasis] big room and that’s where you started getting your uniform. And there was a system [?] what you’re gonna get, when you’re gonna get, and by the time you got to the end you wonder if you’re able to carry everything, you know. Anyway, we all managed to get there, and at the end of that we were introduced to a corporal, two stripes. Now, we thought that was a high rank [phone rings], oh –
TO: Is that a phone call?
WM: I’d better take it. Sorry about that [tape beeps]. It’s a bummer [?] –
TO: Hmm, anyway –
WM: Anyway.
TO: So you spoke to her [unclear] –
WM: So anyway, as I was saying, we, we were then under this corporal [laughs]. He, he told us that he would be looking after us in more ways than one [emphasis] for the, for the next few days. Anyway, we went along in London to a place called Avenue Close which was a new block of flats in St. John’s Wood which had been built and never been occupied, and the Royal Air Force used that for all their new recruits, and, but there’s no, there’s no canteen facilities there, no mess hall, and we went across to Regent Park’s zoo where we dined. The animals had been evacuated and we were there in place of the animals [laughs].
TO: And did you train to be a navigator?
WM: Put it, put it this way, what happens, all depends how deep you want me to go into this, I don’t know. Anyway, what happened was that we had to, we had to pass more, several tests there. They were very strenuous, very strenuous, extremely strenuous, you know. And then of course we were there for about a week, and we were all setting off to different places and the group that I went with was up into the north east of England, to a town called Scarborough where they had quite a number of initial training wings. And what they were, they were just like boarding schools [laughs], certainly a little bit different but that’s what we took them to be. It was just like going back to school or college and starting all over again, and my one was number seventeen, and I was in what we called the Odelpha [?] Hotel, which is a hotel right opposite the Italian gardens in Scarborough. Now, there we studied navigation, theories of flight, engines, just about everything, even how to use a knife and fork in the mess, and that is quite true [laughs]. That seems quite a thing but that was quite true [laughs]. But that was a little on the side [?] there. But we actually studied all of these things, and at the same time we had to do guard duties and various other things like that, and there was two or three times when we were there, there were air raids go on and even a time when there was suspected that we might have had a German couple of U-boats in, about eight boats coming along and they expected them to come up and be looking for certain people that were there on that shore [?] there, people who had been at a conference and we were all turned out for that. They didn’t tell us very much about it but later on we heard it was Churchill and the cabinet members in the Retreat as they call it nowadays. Anyway, but that was, we didn’t know anything, why it was [unclear]. Anyway, what happened was that we had to sit the final exams and everybody in there was doing the same exams, you know? Anyway, what happened after, I passed, I pass through that quite successfully and I was waiting a posting. My posting then was a place called Scone [pronounced Scun], not Scone, Scone [pronounce Scun, emphasis], which is just, just outside of Perth in Scotland and that was where you got to learn to fly on Tiger Moths. Now, when you flew in Tiger Moths up there, we had already been classified from ACs to AC1s and when we, we went up to Scone, actually passed Scone in the Tiger Moths and we thought we could be trusted to do a couple of circuits and you came back down. They didn’t give you wings in those days, they gave you a propeller, always a propeller on your left sleeve, and then we became a leading aircraftsman, which was your first step up. Anyway, what happened after that, I, I was sent from there all the, all the kit bags and everything, and I was sent to a place called Broughton-in-Furness. Broughton-in-Furness, it was like a commander course, only the Royal Air Force calls it an escape course, and you did everything on there that you could possibly do if you were trying to escape. It was always put down to you in the Air Force that you had to try and escape if you were taken prisoner. That was, that was a thing. It was always drilled into you, if you could get back, so much the better. Anyway, that was, that was all about. When that was finished I went to a place called Heaton Park in Manchester. Now, Heaton Park in Manchester, it was mostly Nissan huts, the old corrugated iron ones, you know? And sometimes you also got billeted out with the local people, sometimes you’re lucky and you did both. Well we, we were quite lucky. We were billeted out, and just within a stone’s throw off Heaton Park [laughs], and we, we were with a landlady whose husband was in the Middle East at that time, and we used to pay her half a crown, was two shillings and sixpence in those days and that was for, to leave the snub [?] off the window so that we could lift the window sash up and crawl in after half past ten at night. Well she used to make, she used to make a cup of bronzer [?] up for that [laughs], because she had let out two rooms and that was eight of us in her house, yeah. Anyway, the, everybody knew it happened, but you’re [unclear] to be in by eleven. It was just in case you had trouble getting back you know. Anyway, if you were in the main camp, you had to make sure you were in at half ten at night [laughs]. Anyway, after that we were, we were taken back into the camp, and this was a big camp. There was hundreds of people in there and guesses – we didn’t do a lot of paperwork there but we did a lot of physical training, marching, all that sort of thing, and every time the, every time the Royal Air Force tunes went up you had to march to attention. Doesn’t matter what you’re doing, you had to march to attention. Anyway, what happened after that, you got your uniform. Now, if you were going to, to South Africa, we, we began to learn these things, you went to South Africa you get tropical kit but long [emphasis] trousers. If you were going to Rhodesia, you get tropical kits with short [emphasis] trousers. If you’re going to America, you more or less get issued with civvies, as we called them, and if you were going to Canada then you were alright. Anyway, what happened to us was that we got issued with short trousers and we said ‘oh no, we know what we are [?], we’re going to Rhodesia. That’s pilot training,’ et cetera, et cetera. Good, anyway, we got shipped out, we were on a ship called The Andes [emphasis]. You’ll see a little thing there –
TO: Oh yes.
WM: Andes, you know, ship.
TO: Oh right.
WM: And I’ll show you it afterwards.
TO: Yeah, show me it afterwards.
WM: But what it was, was this ship, The Andes was brand new in the Clyde in nineteen, 1939, and it disappeared then came back again all painted grey, but where we [emphasis] met it, we met her in Liverpool. And this friend of mine, Alec Care, we must have joined up, helped each other, and we were on the ship and we said ‘bye-bye’ to Liverpool. There’s the – ‘bye-bye, bye-bye,’ you know, and we sailed down the Mersey. Anyway, a while after that we, I judged that we had been round the head of Northern Ireland, go down the west coast, and now they could, well according to roughly the speed of the ship and that, and we’d be near the Bay of Biscay. All of a sudden night fell and I said to my friend, ‘Alec, this boat’s going the wrong way.’ He said ‘you and your Clyde navigation.’ I said, ‘this boat’s going the wrong way [emphasis], we’re now going back north.’ So we ended back up in the Mersey again. Then what happened, we got in there because I suppose they got word there was a pack of U-boats around, you know, and that’s why they changed us. Anyway, we got up into the Mersey and looked across and I said to Alec, I said, ‘there’s the five-three-four over there.’ He says, ‘what’s a five-three-four?’ I say, ‘I’m not telling you, you might be a spy.’ He says, ‘euch.’ I says ‘oh, that’s a five-three-four.’ He says, ‘come on Bill, what is it?’ And I say, ‘that’s the Queen Mary.’ ‘Oh.’ Anyway, we admired this big ship because, well I knew her from the Clyde right from when one of my great uncles was helping to build here. Anyway, there she was. Anyway, we, we had a meal there, and the next thing we heard was the whistle went, ‘all RAF personnel so and so and so and so,’ went ‘oh that’s us, what’s happened now? Oh.’ ‘Get all your kit together, assemble here in, in fifteen minutes.’ ‘Oh boy that was, that was quick.’ ‘Cause you hadn’t, hadn’t taken in any kit bag, was just us, you stood up so it was just a matter of taking your kit bags and going to deck. We were then taken across onto the Queen Mary, and we were weighed [?] down so far in I thought we were going to go to New Zealand or somewhere, and [laughs] – anyway, the Queen Mary set off and a few days later we were in New York [emphasis]. We didn’t see a lot of New York, we had a bit of leave time on the promise that we wouldn’t be late coming back, so that was good, and we got on a train and we went up to Moncton, New Brunswick. All the way up to Canada by train which was a great experience for us, ‘cause the first thing we noticed was the food. Now, there was nothing rationed, this was American trains and we were getting the best of everything. Anyway, we got to Moncton, New Brunswick and the, and we were not given any winter clothing because we were still in this kit that we thought we were going to Rhodesia, so anyway [laughs], for two or three days we walked about up there and they used to call us ‘Scors’ because we were walking around with blankets on us to keep us warm, mm [laughs]. Anyway, that was, that was all part of the trials and tribulations. Then of course was, we were told to fall in and you, you, you’re told that you’re now going to a training station. They didn’t tell you where you were going, they just told you’re going to a training station. So we got on a train, and this was the Canadian national railways and we said, ‘well, Canadian pacific goes that side and nation [?] is that side, mm, oh well, fair enough.’ So we landed up in Winnipeg, went all the way through to Winnipeg, then we got off that [emphasis] train and we went up to another [emphasis] one, up past Portage la Prairie and then the railway finished so we got, we got on we’ll call it a bus [emphasis], and this took us up to Dauphin, Manitoba and then we, we were at Paulson and Dauphin and there we did bombing and gunnery training. We did all these sort of elements again that, that everyone had to go through the same things, and then the next round of course we did, we did flying training and, and then of course we did the navigation, another step up. That was fine and we were still all together, no deviations. Then of course we passed all that and I had a, I had an excellent, I had an excellent bombing record, really excellent one if I say so myself, you know. Anyway, next thing we knew, we graduated from there. You had to pass, it was a hundred percent pass, you know, there was always people dropping out and, but we carried on and we went, we went down, down [emphasis] the line to Portage la Prairie. Portage on the Prairie, that was – now that there [emphasis] was the school for air observers, you know? That was number seventeen air observer school, Portage la Prairie, and there of course we, we got changed around a bit. I was told that I was a good candidate for, to be air observer. I said, ‘how about piloting?’ ‘Oh,’ he says, ‘if you’re an observer you’ll get to fly as well. You’ll get to pilot as well,’ you know. I said ‘well that’s okay.’ He did really ‘cause you were told [emphasis], you know? Anyway, I graduated from there. I got my wings there, and eventually, eventually ‘cause we [coughs], we went back to Moncton, New Brunswick and we got on a ship to come back to the UK and that ship I recognised as [laughs] the Empress of Japan. I said to my friend, I said ‘I don’t like that name, Empress of Japan,’ you know. We got up beside it and it’s now called the Empress of Scotland [laughs]. They had changed its name. Now this was in Halifax, Nova Scotia, so we come back, we come back across the Atlantic, the North Atlantic, and we sailed up the Clyde and eventually we went to a place called Harrogate. So Harrogate we were more or less brought back to earth again. Rations of course still, instead of the food we’d been having in Canada and that, you know, America. And we, we then – well the [laughs]. It was quite strange, they gave us another FFI to see if we’re alright and we’re okay that way, and another medicals to see if we’re alright, you know? And the next thing I knew, I was, I was in a detour [?], so my friend went that way and I went that way, so that was it. Anyway, I landed up at a place which is just outside of Wolverhampton, and this was an advanced navigation and low flying school called Halfpenny Green. Now, quite a number of years ago they made a film there and then called it “Halfpenny Field,” but it was Halfpenny Green [emphasis], and today it’s been nominated to be Wolverhampton Airport. Anyway, what we were doing there is that we were taught low lying pass flying, landing on beaches, landing on small areas and we wondered why this was all about, you know? But anyway, we didn’t ask any questions, you just did as you’re told and [laughs], ‘cause you’ve already volunteered [laughs]. Anyway, that was it and we [unclear] was successful, it was, it was excellent. We [tape beeps] treetops. We were making bomb, making, making bomb attacks on the railway bridges across the Severn and even, even the RAF stations that knew we were coming but of course they weren’t open up at us ‘cause they knew it was an exercise, and all various target like that. And also as I say, we were learning to land on short, short runways or grass and beaches and all sorts of fancy things like that. Anyway, this was all preparation because what you didn’t realise that you were, you were being selected there, and that was, that was when I was, I felt as if there was something, something strange [emphasis] about all of this because everybody was going to do different things, and that was where, where, where we were taken aside one day and told out where we were going to, you know? And some of the, some of the chaps went one way and I went another way and I landed up in this aerodrome which the first thing I had to do was sign the Secrets Act all over [emphasis] again, because you’d always, everybody signed it but this was what they called a double one, extremely secret, you know? Now, with that all I could see around this place was a multitude of different types of aircraft [laughs]. So we wondered what this was all about. Normally you went to an air station there would be two different types or something like that but on this particular one there was several, you know? And, and of course [laughs, pause] what we, erm, I’ll bring it back [pause], hmm.
TO: Was this for the SOE?
WM: Yeah, this is, this is, this is really the beginning of the training for that, you know? Well the, we had been doing the training, you know, and of course, as I say, when we were, what we were doing this sort of thing, you see, the secrecy that was coming up, we really wondered what we were, what we were doing [emphasis], you know? Anyway, we were told then that we had joined 138 Squadron, you know? Now, just like everything else, nobody ever knew what 138 Squadron was doing or any other squadron, but we soon began to find out what it was. And it always seemed strange at the beginning that no one would tell us much and we began to wonder what we were doing there, and we were, we were confined to the station. We were confined to the station for at least two weeks [laughs]. Anyway, that’s what we, what we were doing then was we were, we were learning to fly once again low level at night time. We had to do all sorts of things and [pause] we just – oh we were introduced, we were introduced to people who were pilots and, and aircrew and to us, you know, they were a bit rag tag and bob tailed by the looks of them, they were, they weren’t exactly all spick and span like we expected us to be, you know [laughs]. Anyway, excuse me a minute.
TO: It’s okay [tape paused and restarted].
WM: We were introduced to groups of people and we were told that ‘you’ll fly with this one and fly with that one, but you might fly in two different ones on the same night.’ ‘Oh, that’s alright.’ ‘So what we’re going to do is, we’re going to introduce everybody, but just remember that when you do get introduced is that, remember what you’re signed [?].’ ‘Cause there was a secret come out, we were at Tempsford. That was the home of the flights for the SOE, and of course there again that was the reason why all these different odd aircraft was lined [?] up, was that they were used for different purposes. Later on what we used to say, we used to say that Bomber Harris used to send over there all the old junk that he didn’t want on Bomber Command [laughs]. Anyway, what happened then was as I say, you got to know the different colours ‘cause by that time, as I, as I, as I say, I was, I was classified and reclassified into what I was doing and this was observer, and that was what I graduated as, and of course I still kept up my flying skills. That’s another story, I’ll come back to that. But anyway, there we were and we, we had one or two short flights with different pilots [phone rings] and we got to know – [tape beeps].
TO: No problem.
WM: No, when we, when we flew with these different chaps, they got to know us, we got to know them and each had their own specialities, and what used to happen then was once, once the powers that be realised that you could do [emphasis] what you’re supposed to be able to do on paper, then they would trust you with an operation. The reason being was that we were using the fields or pieces of, strips of roads or even, even old glider fields, we had to land, and it wasn’t always the best of territory ‘cause we did this with Lysanders which was the single engine one, you know? I got lots of pictures of Lysanders over there somewhere, mm, and the idea being there’s, is that when – you were given a map reference, and you had to study that map reference very carefully. And we never [emphasis] tried to find out how our passengers were, and they didn’t try and find out who we were. There was no communication. The reason being is if we got shot down, or either of us got taken prisoners you couldn’t, you couldn’t tell them about the other ones, alright? ‘Cause the ACA [?] people were considered to be a different category from what, even what we were, and we were a different category from them entirely, and we were a different category from normal aircrew, and even – that was known in Germany, that was known. Don’t tell me how they got to know but that’s another story. Anyway, we did, we did several of these operations. We were taking people out and sometimes it was a matter of taking two people or three people about. Squash, it was a bit of a squeeze in the, in the Lysander but we weren’t [?] gonna enjoy the ride, and all I could say was all the trips that I made was very successful, and I flew with certainly [?] different pilots from time to time on that. Then of course likewise they had different observers, you know? But we had great faith in each other, and the navigation aids that we had was elementary map reading, night flying et cetera. We didn’t have the joy of T and all the other things that came up later on. We were actually doing it like the old time pilot, many, many years before.
TO: I don’t know how much detail you can tell me about this, but when you brought these agents over from Britain to Europe, did you have a certain, were you, did you have an arranged landing field?
WM: Oh yes, when we, you know, same thing [?] we left, we left Tempsford. Well, I knew where we were going [emphasis], I had to know where we were going, and the pilot knew where he was going but I took him there, you know? I took him there, passengers there. Well these passengers were known to be coming. There would be a reception committee ready for them to whisk them away as soon as they were on the ground, oh yes. There was a good communications, yes.
TO: And did you ever see any German aircraft when you were flying on these missions?
WM: Oh yes, yes. There’s – oh we, well, put it this way. In those days we were flying low [emphasis], very low, and we weren’t too bothered about it. Now and again you run into a bit of trouble, but the night fighters was mostly come to different bits, I’ll tell you more about that, alright? But the, even, even by all the secrets that we had, there was a terrible tragedy that happened through the London office where somebody infiltrated into the London office SOE, and they, they gave away people on the ground, and they were just massacred. But you know, that was one of those terrible things about that, and that was country man to country man, and I’m sorry to say that was in Holland, mm. But we, we, we never knew exactly how our people got on, alright, or if we were picking somebody up and taking them back to the UK, as soon as we landed back at Tempsford they were taken away and we never saw them again, but they were taken away to their different places like that. Quite strange to say there was a big house just quite near here where, where they used to go back you, you know? Did –
TO: Did you, sorry.
WM: No.
TO: Did you – it’s an odd question, but did you get a sense of pride knowing you were helping secret agents?
WM: Oh yes [emphasis], yes. Well as a matter of fact, we, we felt we were doing a good job that way, because the thing was nobody, nobody heard about it, but we knew what was going on, sometimes by results. We got, you know, we got to know back, back on the station how well the people that we had delivered had reacted to what was going on, ‘cause there was just a matter of them infiltrating back into populations and we never heard anything, but if it was a special operation they were going to do, someone would say well, ‘well done chaps,’ or something like that, you know?
TO: So what, what, do you know what year it was that you started helping SOE with this?
WM: 1942.
TO: And was it just western Europe you went to?
WM: Well, well put it this way, what happened after, after a while, we started getting different aircraft, ‘cause in our station we used all the old stuff, Whitleys and things like that and various other ones like that, vintage. Then of course we got, we got one or two of the American ones come in, you know? And there was one time that we were delivering stuff to the Maquis. Now the Maquis was different from SOE, Maquis’s French. So what we were doing, we were delivering guns and ammunition, there was a full load in a Hudson. Now the Hudson was an American aircraft that was designed to land in the prairies, naturally [?] on good tarmac runways, but anywhere a farmer would put up a windsock, that’s where they were designed to for, and one particular time we, we had this load of stuff, full load, and we had to land on this area and it turned out to be, it was an old glider drone where people used to learn to fly gliders [emphasis] in France, you know? ‘Cause where we were [?] about a hundred and eighty kilometres north east of Colonia [?], you know? As near as I can tell you about that one, ‘cause a lot of stuff’s still secret. Now that is fact.
TO: Mm.
WM: Anyway, what happened was that we, we landed safely, we turned around and as we turned around to face to go out again, we began to sink. Anyway, I said to Nobby who was the skipper, I said ‘Nobby I don’t like this.’ He said ‘aye, you’ll be alright Bill, we’ll get rid of all this rubbish, we’ll be alright.’ So anyway, the Maquis came out the bush, as I call it, took all this stuff away. They disappeared and then the, the lady who’s in charge of that section, she came and she says, ‘what’s troubling you?’ I says ‘I don’t think we’re going to get out of here.’ So we got the sticky bombs ready for, to stick it to the aircraft and blow it up, and she said ‘ah, I’ll see if I can get the villagers up, push you out,’ you know, just like that. Anyway, she went back to the village. Now, normally we were aware on the ground about fifteen, twenty minutes at the most ‘cause anything after than that was dangerous, yeah, you know? She went down and she got the villagers up and it was quite a way away, but anyway, I asked [?] too many questions about that. Up she comes with the villagers, but on their way back they met the general sergeant who was in charge of the village, and he turns round and says to them, ‘now, all you people, you’ll be in trouble. You’re out here, it’s after curfew, you’re supposed to be in the village.’ And of course the idea was that she turned round and said to them, ‘but your big black aircraft is stuck in the mud and we’ve got to push it out, and the Gestapo says if we don’t push it out they’re going to shoot us all and you.’ So he says, ‘I’ll go and look after the village, you go and push the aircraft out.’ So in the end they got us out. We didn’t need to blow it up.
TO: So just to clarify, were you stuck in the mud [emphasis]?
WM: Aye, just going down, like that.
TO: And how big was this aircraft?
WM: Hudson.
TO: And how –
WM: Twin engine aircraft, hmm.
TO: Were you ever scared during these missions?
WM: Of course, yeah. But they, you don’t go like that you, you, gung ho, you know what I mean by gung ho? We weren’t gung ho. We prided ourselves on being professional.
TO: And is there, are there any other occasions from your time with SOE that you are allowed to tell me about which you recall, a lot?
WM: Oh yes, lots of things that we – as a matter of fact, during, we didn’t bring them all [emphasis] back, but during the time that we were there [emphasis] we brought back four chaps, four men, Frenchmen, who actually in later years turned out to become prime ministers, prime ministers of France, hmm.
TO: And sorry, did – when you, what happened when you left SOE and started back on standard bombing missions?
WM: Well anyway, what, what happened was we were always alternately from time to rime on different missions. It wasn’t as if we, we just jumped from one back into that one, but we were always, was always in the, always doing the missions. Sometimes it was only a few aircraft going out for a special mission, or sometimes, sometimes we joined up with the, a bomber stream. It all depends on how, how we were required, and we, a lot of our chaps became leading lights on the Pathfinders, because of our highly successful rates in navigating to targets.
TO: And do you remember your first bombing mission?
WM: Yeah, first, my first bombing mission was to Kiel, Kiel Canal, mm. And that, that, that was also for – the idea there was to try to block the canal from time to time. We, in the early days there wasn’t anything that we had big enough that could do [emphasis] it, but the idea used to be that if you could bomb something, you know, bomb ships or something like that, that would make traps in the canal, you know, then of course that, that would be a help on keeping stuff from going through it, you know, hmm. But, no we covered a high variety of trips, you know, oh yes.
TO: And what aircraft were you in for these bombing missions?
WM: Well first of all I was in, I was in Wellingtons, you know? We did a lot of Wellingtons and then of course we were onto Lancasters. We converted [?] onto Lancasters, mm.
TO: And could you please describe the conditions inside a Wellington?
WM: Well in the Wellington there was, it was rather cramped but we still considered it a good aircraft. And by that time we had six in the crew, and we, we had crewed up and we were flying together, but you know, it was just, it was just, there was no comfort, there was no comfort. Each person had their own little cubby hole or section [coughs] but that was all. But once you got up over ten thousand feet, then of course, then it gets a bit uncomfortable, you know? You’re always [?] trying to keep warm was the thing, you know? Then of course you’d all sorts of wires for – you had your air com [?], you had your oxygen masks, you had all these sorts of things, you know? And as I, as I say, it was, it was a lot, a lot colder than it was later on in the Lancasters and even the Halifaxes and Stirlings, mm.
TO: And as an observer, what were you duties for the mission?
WM: My duties – we were highly skilled navigators then. We were, we were a step above the, we were a step above the normal navigators, mm, yeah, because we did, we did everything. We did the whole job. It was the same thing as – at one time, what happened was that the, every aircraft had two pilots. Anyway, there came a time when they took one pilot away and then it was the observer that was the backup pilot, you know? Anyway, after that, after that when the big four engine jobs come out, the, they brought in the role of flight engineer, and the flight engineer was supposed to be able to fly, but the way I’d seen it right from very beginning was that I reckoned that I knew enough about flying, and I told people ‘as long as I can take her home and land it, that’s good enough for me’ [laughs].
TO: Slight side story, a few weeks ago I interviewed a man who was a flight engineer for Lancasters, and he said he was taught how to fly the plane but not how to land it.
WM: Yeah well [laughs], well that’s the – my, my big thing was I was taught how to land them, yeah. And I had a good, had a good background in flying and piloting in the lighter aircraft, but then of course between the Wellingtons and the Lancasters and the, we had a – well we did it quite often. We did it as part of an air, sometimes, sometimes you went up for, to test your engines. You did that, you did that pretty often, or to see the rest of the aircraft, and I always took the opportunity to be able to land the aircraft.
TO: And can you tell me a bit about Halifaxes?
WM: Not a great deal. I didn’t do a lot of trips on Halifaxes but you know, she was also a good aircraft, but I know there’s, there’s friends of mine who, if you have an argument they say ‘ooh, it’s far better than a Lancaster’ and blah, blah, blah, but that’s only, the Halifax was a good aircraft. It couldn’t fly as high [emphasis] as a Lancaster and it wasn’t as fast as Lancaster but that was just about it, mm.
TO: And what’s your take on Halifax versus Lancaster?
WM: Oh [laughs] to me it was the Lancaster [laughs].
TO: And was the interior of a Lancaster different from that of a Halifax?
WM: No, much the same, mm, much the same. It’s just the skin.
TO: Mhm.
WM: Just the skin, you know? You know, you know, everything was for bomb loads.
TO: Mhm. And you mentioned something about Stirlings earlier.
WM: Yeah.
TO: What’s your take on them?
WM: The Stirling was, she was the first of the heavies, and she was, she was quite slow [emphasis] and didn’t have a high ceiling rate, you know, but she did a good job in her day [?], oh yes. There was many, many a crew that did great work in Stirlings, oh.
TO: There’s a D-Day veteran I spoke to a couple of years ago, his glider for D-Day was towed by a Stirling.
WM: Oh yes [emphasis]. Well there was a lot of that. Halifaxes and Stirlings did a lot of glider towing, yeah, oh yes.
TO: And what bombing mission of the war do you remember the most?
WM: Er [pause]. Just, just before, just before the war finished we [tape beeps] there were two big ones, and that particular night our wing commander, Wing Commander Murray, who I’d known from Tempsford days, you know? He, he came along and he said he wanted to fly with us that night and be the captain, and he said, and I said ‘no, you can bugger off.’ It’s not we wanted [?] coming into aircrew, you know, taking over. ‘Cause I could say that to him because we’d flown together a lot. Anyway, he says ‘what happens if I don’t sit in the pilot’s seat.’ I said ‘alright then you can come along, that’s my seat’ [laughs]. I mean it was my seat when I was needed, yeah. I said ‘no you can come along and be second pilot,’ you know? But it was, it was, it was quite a thing. It was a place called Magdeburg, it was of the big ones that we were on, but several other big ones as well of course. I could, just hold that a minute? [Pause, tape beeps]. Now there was several big ones but the last, the last big one was Potsdam. That was a real big one, yeah. As a matter, matter of fact, that one was in the, in the fourteenth, fourteenth, 14th of April, so that was one of the last big ones, you know? And that was a night one, and there was another was on the 13th [emphasis] of April was another time we went to Kiel, and what had happened was the night before we went to Kiel, and we put this battleship and we sunk it, we turned it over, mm. And it came back but they wanted us to go back again, but one of the retorts was that night, one of the crews was, ‘I hear you don’t want us to put it back up again’ [laughs]. But that was a, and that actually blocked a canal, that actually blocked a canal, you know, ‘cause then of course one of the, one of the last of the big ones we did was to Bremen on the 20th and 22nd of April, you know, yeah. And course there was places like Merseburg and various other ones like that, you know? But this is something I keep to myself.
TO: Okay.
WM: You know? Because I got, you know, I’ve got – the way I look at it is, it’s not, not a thing we brag about, you know? It’s, it was wartime and that was it. And today I’ve got, I’ve got, I’ve got many friends across Europe and across Africa and they come from all sorts of walks of life and all sorts of countries.
TO: Sorry, can I ask what happened to the wing commander who wanted to be on the flight?
WM: Oh yes, oh well he came in the flight with us there and that was it, Wing Commander Murray. We were flying F for Freddie, yeah, and of course, well anyway, he was in charge of the squadron, you know?
TO: Mhm.
WM: And he stayed on the Air Force for a while, you know, and I lost touch with him, you know?
TO: Mhm.
WM: Because we’d been, we’d been quite good friends there, mm. But after the war, after the war was, you didn’t really go out of your way [emphasis] to keep in touch, although with my own crew [emphasis] in the Lancaster we have done. As a matter of fact even, even now [emphasis] one of my chaps in aircrew, a fellow called Jimmy Dagg, a New Zealander, his great grandson plays rugby for the New Zealand All Blacks rugby team. His name is Israel Dagg, mm.
TO: And are, just in raids in Germany in general, how much anti-aircraft fire was there?
WM: Oh plenty. As a, as a matter of fact, what a lot of people don’t realise was that the amount, the amount of German troops, and specialised German troops that had to be contained within Germany because of what the, the Bomber Command was doing. Now as a matter of fact, that was, it was, it was a surprising, there must have thousands upon thousands had to be retrained in Germany who could have been going somewhere else, and they were all very highly trained people, mm.
TO: And did you ever encounter night fighters?
WM: Oh yes a couple of times, but we were quite lucky. We, we managed to corkscrew away, but the night fighters, what you had to watch even more carefully than over, over a target area or on the way back was just before you landed, because there used to be quite a few of them that used to prowl round about aerodromes and airfields in this country, and waiting for people to come in ‘cause that’s when you’re, you’re, you’re most vulnerable, when everything was shut down. And there was quite a number of people that got shot down just before they landed.
TO: And could you please tell me how this corkscrew evasive manoeuvre worked?
WM: Well that’s, that’s just what it was, a corkscrew. You might have been flying more or less level or up and down a bit, and then the corkscrew was like that. That was a corkscrew, yeah. They got away, yeah, mm.
TO: Did anyone in the crew ever get sick when that happened?
WM: Oh yeah [emphasis], my mid upper gunner used to get sick as soon as he put his foot inside the aircraft [laughs]. Once we were still fly, still take off he was alright.
TO: Mm. And did you ever, during the, did you ever find out how much, whether you’d hit the targets during the raids?
WM: I know we did [emphasis]. As I say, one of my specialities was, was bombing.
TO: But could you see photographs of it later?
WM: Oh yes, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, mm, yeah.
TO: And were you ever on raids to Berlin?
WM: Yeah, mm. Oh yes, as I say, that was, that was, that was one that would come up quite often, mm [pause]. Hell [?], mm.
TO: Sorry, you still okay for me to ask questions?
WM: What?
TO: Are you okay for me to ask questions?
WM: Yes, yes.
TO: ‘Cause just let me know if you want to stop.
WM: No, no.
TO: Okay. And what did you think of the German aircraft of the war?
WM: Oh very good, excellent, yeah, excellent yeah. As a matter, as a matter, as a matter of fact, at the end of the war there was one, one German one, you know? And I thought, I thought at first it was a shooting star, you know? And it wasn’t, it was a jet, and it flew past me just as if it was a shooting star and when I went back to report on this, and they said ‘ah, it probably was a shooting star you saw.’ I said ‘no, no, no, no, this is an aeroplane.’ That was one of the areas [?] ones that we’d seen [?] and spotted, yeah, ‘cause, you know, you got debriefed after every, every trip.
TO: Was there any ever occasions where you had to turn back from the target because of bad weather?
WM: No, I was, we were alright. No, we didn’t, we never, we never turned back. Ground crew were every bit as good as our aircrew.
TO: Mm.
WM: They kept our aircraft in excellent [emphasis] condition. We never had any [emphasis] complaints about our ground crew, mm.
TO: And you explain to me how the briefings worked for the missions?
WM: Right, well what, what happened was that when, when you landed, when you landed you’re taken from the aircraft back into wing on, it was trucks, we used to call them crew trucks. So in other words you didn’t split up, you’re taken in, in a crew truck, and there you’re integrated and say how the trip went. And of course you had your version of what went on and then of course your cameras that you had in your aircraft also their versions, and we always seemed to marry, marry up on tours exactly the same, no. But we had a, we had an excellent [emphasis] crew. We had two New Zealanders, two Scotsmen, two Englishmen and one Londoner [laughs].
TO: And what about the briefings that you had before [emphasis] you went on a mission?
WM: Well the briefing was, what happened, they assembled. Now first of all they had an all-in briefing where the, every member of the aircrew was there, and then after that was, that briefing was done and that was more or less told you where you were going and et cetera, et cetera, and you split off into different sections. The gunners was going to see about their guns and talk to their gunnery officers and the flight engineers, they went to see the air officers. The air observers and navigators would go in together and the pilots and the, and the observers were together, you know? That’s, that’s how it went ‘cause you know, we, we had to make sure we were exactly correct at all times between the pilots and observer, the pilot and the navigator, mm.
TO: And when you, were you sitting in the cockpit during the mission?
WM: Yeah.
TO: Could you, could you actually see anything below you during the mission?
WM: From time to time you could, yes, mm. From time to time you could, yes, mm.
TO: And what sort of things could you see?
WM: Well it all depends. The more water about the place the better it was, better reflections and things like that.
TO: And could you see what the Pathfinders had left?
WM: Oh yes, it all depends – well that was to be able to recognise, make sure that you had taken the right targets.
TO: Mhm.
WM: Because the Germans were, were quite sophisticated because they could try to imitate your Pathfinder’s TIs, what they put down, no.
TO: And were you involved in raids to other cities like Hamburg?
WM: Oh yes, mm.
TO: And what do you remember from those missions?
WM: Well a lot of them, well the big, the big one in Hamburg was a big fire raiser. But that happened to be that the wind conditions, everything was just right or wrong [emphasis] as regards which way you’re looking at it. As far as we concerned that was right, as far as the Germans were concerned, it was a big disaster because at that time a lot of the buildings in Hamburg were wooden, mm.
TO: And were you surprised when you heard how successful the raid had been?
WM: Not surprised, ‘cause that’s what we went for. Most successful it was, well, the better the raid was, mm.
TO: And was, were you involved in the raid on Dresden?
WM: No I wasn’t, but we were on standby, but I wasn’t involved in that one, no.
TO: Mhm.
WM: The, some, some people on the 90 Squadron were, ‘cause at Tuddenham 90 Squadron and 138 Squadron ran alongside each other, you know?
TO: Mhm.
WM: No.
TO: And when did you, when did you react, or how did you feel when Churchill announced that they would start bombing Germany?
WM: Start [emphasis] bombing?
TO: Yeah.
WM: Oh that was right at the beginning.
TO: Yes but how did you feel?
WM: That was [sigh], well put it this way, we had already had casualties our side, so it was just war, no. It was war, yeah.
TO: Mhm. And was your aircraft ever damaged by anti-aircraft flak?
WM: Oh we had, we had, but we had nothing really serious, mm. No, we had holes all over the place from time to time. Some very close to the occupants was [laughs] but –
TO: Mhm.
WM: No, we always managed to get back.
TO: And were you ever given, did you get new bombs as the war went on?
WM: Oh yes, yes. We, we dropped just about everything that was going, yes. Oh yes, no.
TO: Did you ever, I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. Did you ever get any of the massive bombs that Barnes Wallis had developed?
WM: Well, there were different ones yes, yeah we did. We went on a couple of trips to Bordeaux and things like that, yes –
TO: Might be –
WM: But, I know for a fact that even Barnes Wallis’ bombs, and the big ones, big ones that were dropping there, the German’s fortification of the submarine pens was, was terrific. Now they even today you can have a walk through them and see what it’s like, oh yes. But there [emphasis] is what I say, is that the – sorry I, there’s what happens is what – the amount of German personnel that had to be employed because [emphasis] of the Bomber Command raids was tremendous, tremendous [emphasis]. It wasn’t just one or two round the village or something like that. The number of people they kept back within Germany itself was properly, oh it must have been millions.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
WM: Well it all depends what you mean battle. Do you mean aircrew or land or –
TO: Any, anything.
WM: Or the ships.
TO: Well most important campaign then.
WM: Well, they’re all different, all different. You know it all depends, you know, if you say that – well the thing that lead up to the retention and taking back over Europe, and that was D-Day.
TO: Mm. And were you involved in that?
WM: Oh yes, yes.
TO: Can you tell me about any of the missions you went on?
WM: What, what we were doing, we were, we were, we were on the mock, one of the mock raids further up the coast. And a lot of the stuff that we were dropping that night was, was like aluminium foil, and that was showing them, well came up on the radar where there was massive amount of aircraft flying around, you know? And [laughs] of course at the same time we carried a lot of bombs, but we tried as much as possible to use them away, away from where we’d be flying over, as if it was again going further afield in. But at that time what we were trying to do was trying to keep away from human habitation because that was, that was just something that we were asked to do, because keep it away from the towns and cities and northern France, mm.
TO: Mm. And on, in bombing missions in general, what kind of targets were you actually given at the briefings?
WM: Well it all depends, you know, because no two briefings were the same, no. Yeah, you had factory towns, all sorts of things that you’re going after. You know even, I wasn’t, as I say, I wasn’t in on Dresden but there is a book called “Dresden,” and if you want to know anything about Dresden, get hold of that book. Now, it’s about that thick, and it goes back into the old days of Saxony, and it goes all the way through from the different things all the way, right through, right up until modern times. But that explains exactly what happened in that city. It’s very [emphasis], very complicated. It’s, but it tells the whole story of Dresden, not just one side of the, it’s the whole story, mm.
TO: And, I’m sorry to ask this but did you suffer heavy losses on your missions?
WM: Oh, well, from time to time we had losses, but we never, we never had what we considered a heavy loss, mm.
TO: And what did you think of Arthur Harris?
WM: Oh, we supported him. He was, he was our, our chief. We looked up to [could be after] him, yeah, we did.
TO: And what do you think of his tactics and strategy?
WM: Well I thought they were alright, because if you go back, go back in time that was his instructions that he was getting from the Air Ministry. That, that what a lot of people forget about, was that he [emphasis] was getting told by the Air Ministry what they wanted [emphasis], and that came from the cabinet meetings.
TO: Mhm. And do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly after the war?
WM: No [emphasis]. They were not treated fairly. It was completely unfairly. As far as I’m concerned, even, even it took, it took for recognition, it took over seventy years [emphasis]. Now, on my, my medal bar, I’ve got the ‘39-‘45 Star, but also I wear [tape beeps] a little brass mounting [?] which says ‘Bomber Command,’ you know? That took seventy years for them to give it to us. Have you seen it?
TO: I think I saw it briefly when I met you last Sunday.
WM: It was in the middle.
TO: Yeah [paper shuffles]. And could you ever see fires below you on the ground?
WM: Oh yes, oh yes, definitely.
TO: Mhm, were they large or small?
WM: All depends, all depends what area and what you were doing. Some time you knew, you knew, you know, you had raging fires. Sometimes, sometime, see it all depends what the target was.
TO: And do you remember seeing fires when Hamburg was bombed in 1943?
WM: Well that’s what I said to you, I said to you already that that was a big one, you know.
TO: Mhm.
WM: But that was – then again, you’ve got to read the story about Hamburg, because what happened was that all the conditions for a bombing raid was right. The wind and the target and the structures of the building and everything, it all came into it.
TO: Mhm. And what did you think of the thousand bomber raid on Cologne?
WM: Well that, that was one of the best adverts that Harris could have. I won’t tell you what the thousand bombers were because nobody knows, but what he did was he got all the aircraft that could fly and return from there and used that. You know, right down to, there were some of the Blenheims [emphasis] that were in there to make up a thousand bombers, you know? That was a big propaganda one. And not only that, you say something about Harris and doing that, but there again, all of these things came from the War Cabinet. You know, this is what people forget or don’t know, there’s War Cabinet and then you come down to the Air Ministry, and the Air Ministry would then passed it onto Harris. And Harris was, alright at times Harris was dogmatic about what we were doing, but you think of Dresden. The Russians were fighting like hell coming our way, and at the same time the amount of German troops and everything else that was passing through, through Dresden, and what was happening in Dresden, what they were actually manufacturing [emphasis] for the, for the German, erm –
TO: War effort?
WM: Well, the German war effort [emphasis] was terrific. There was everything from stuff for the U-boats and aircraft and everything like that, it was all over the place. And this is admitted in this book, this book is, is called “Dresden” and it tells you street by street what they were doing, mm.
TO: And do you remember hearing about the attack on the Ruhr damns?
WM: Oh yes. Oh we were also, we were also on standby for that mission. We were sat, you know – the idea was that if it didn’t work that night, we were going to go the next night. There was, there was another three squadrons ready to go the next night –
TO: And –
WM: But it actually came through.
TO: And did that improve morale a lot?
WM: Oh yes, definitely.
TO: This is going to be –
WM: Scampton, were the, were the, were the Dambusters squadron was, we were also stationed at Scampton for a while, mm.
TO: This is probably going to be an odd question, but what was your least favourite aircraft to fly in?
WM: A Bolingbroke.
TO: Mm.
WM: A Bolingbroke was the American Canadian version of a Blenheim. She was underpowered and if you lost one engine, you had trouble trying to make it back to your base. But in Canada, a lot of chaps were lost over the lakes in the wintertime when they lost one engine, they went down through the ice.
TO: Mm.
WM: But that was, that was my one, a Bolingbroke. But as I say, I flew them and we were alright.
TO: And what was your favourite aircraft?
WM: Well I started off, I had a love for the Wellington but of course, later on it was the, it was the Lancaster. But old Lizzy, she never let us down and Lizzy was the Lysander. But the other thing, there’s one that’s hardly ever mentioned and that was the Anson, and of course the, the amount trainees that was through on the Lysanders was amazing. Everybody praises the Lysander, the Anson, mm.
TO: Mm. We’re actually out of battery on the camera, so is it okay if we have a break while I charge it up?
WM: Yeah, yeah, sure [tape paused and restarted].
TO: Okay so, can you tell me a bit about how you came to be involved in Operation Manna?
WM: We, we were stationed at RAF Tuddenham and we, we’d actually been on ops and we were called forward to stay and we thought ‘oh, well it’s another op,’ and this was on a Sunday.
TO: Mhm.
WM: And we were told that we were going to have stuff loaded on and we were to drop it, but it wasn’t bombs. It was in our containers, the containers that we’d used for dropping the stuff into the, into the Maquis as well, when we used to drop stuff. And that, that was alright. And when we got in the air, of course we didn’t know the whole [emphasis] story but it’s like a very good friend of mine says, her grandmother told her to hide under the table because she thought this was a message [?] they were gonna come and do some bombing [emphasis] round about there. Instead of that of course we were dropping the food. Well that was, that was the plus the operation started, but I suppose you know the story about that, about the two Canadians who went – can I tell you that one? Well what happened was Operation Manna came about because there was two young Canadian officers who had permission to go over to the German lines and speak to the German commander if it was possible and advise them that they could arrange for, to have food dropped into Holland because all the people there were starving, and that included the German troops that was there. Anyway, after negotiations, they had managed to get to them and they managed through the negotiations, the fact that we would be flying in Lancasters [emphasis] and dropping the food and we would not be dropping bombs. And of course the Germans advised that their anti-aircraft guns wouldn’t be firing at us, but they forgot to tell a lot of people with a rifle that what was happening, so it wasn’t impossible for us to get a few pot shots aimed at us with people on the ground with rifle fire. But anyway, we landed, we didn’t land [emphasis] of course, we just went in and we dropped it and certain food dropped and that was it, but later on, on the second or third day, by that time they’d got a bit organised and we were dropping food into, into football grounds. And what had happened, they got the local people to put big white crosses on the football grounds and that’s where we had to drop into. And one of the, one of the trips we were doing was at, we were flying in, and this, all the Lancasters said ‘ooh, a sprog crew.’ And this came, become across us and we had to veer quickly and let him come in, and when we were dropping our stuff, one of them went outside and landed on the railway line. Anyway, I could see lots of people round about it ‘cause it was taking quite a while to get into it of course, but by this time they’d realised it was, it was food in it and not bombs. Anyway, many years later in Africa when we were reopening a new rugby field, and in the pavilion later on I was telling the story, and I said ‘yes, it was, we were dropping the food to Holland’ and there was one of these things, a fellow, and I said ‘it was just like a lot of little ants round a sugar lump.’ And all of a sudden, somebody put his hand on my shoulder and I looked round, there’s this big fellow, a youngster, must have been in his early twenties, and he said to me, ‘you nearly killed me.’ And I said, ‘what do you mean I nearly killed you, I’ve never seen you in my life before.’ He says, ‘I was the first of these little black ants to get there’ he says, ‘because I saw it falling outside and I rushed to it, and all the other people came and dived on top of me’ [laughs]. So you see, it’s a small world there. But also I’ve got, I’ve got a large number of friends in this area, Dutch people, who actually received the food and they also still have services where, where they bless Manna, and there’s one particular family who come here into our court here, our Debbie’s [?] court and one, one Wednesday a month, and she was five years old when we dropped our first lot of food, and she’s always been thankful, thankful all the time, and she does tell people that ‘oh, Mr Moore, Uncle Bill here, he saved my country from starvation’ [laughs]. So you see that that was a real pleasure to do that, and I was actually awarded the Dutch Medal on that one, and very earnestly I consider that one of the finest medals and for the finest properties [?] that I received during the war.
TO: So would you say that’s the mission you’re most proud of?
WM: Yes.
TO: And when you first learned about Operation Manna, were you surprised that you’d be dropping food and not bombs?
WM: Oh yes, no, no.
TO: And could you, what do you remember most about Operation Manna?
WM: Well, the amount of aircraft. Well after, after the first Sunday, after the first Sunday it was well organised, ‘cause the first Sunday and Monday it was a trial run to see what happened really, but after that we, we had several squadrons that was dropping the food, and of course even, even some of the Americans were dropping food as well. But there were dropping food further afield than what we were, you know.
TO: And –
WM: At the beginning the war was still, the fighting was go on. It wasn’t, you know, it carried on afterwards but the first, the first few days of it that was still when the war was going on, you know.
TO: And what about, could you see if any Dutch civilians on the ground were waving British flags?
WM: Oh yes, well you could see them waving [emphasis]. You’re not always sure what they were waving but they were waving and clothes and waving anything at all when I realised on the second wave what we were doing, ‘cause it wasn’t, wasn’t bombs we were dropping.
TO: Mm. Well Bernie, the veteran, other Manna veteran whose number I gave you, he told me that flying so low he could see a Dutch boy waving a Union Jack.
WM: Yeah well, he must, he must have been very lucky to have – ‘cause it maybe that someone dropped the Union flag –
TO: Mhm.
WM: And then he got it, but not a Union Jack [emphasis].
TO: Mhm.
WM: It’s a Union flag. Do you know the difference?
TO: No, please explain.
WM: Well the Union Jack [emphasis] is flown in the brow of a ship –
TO: Mhm.
WM: The Union Jack is the one that’s – Union flag [emphasis] is the one that’s flown everywhere else.
TO: Oh right, I didn’t know that. Thank you.
WM: Mm, the Union Jack is the small staff in the front of a ship.
TO: Mhm [pause]. What kind of, when you were sat in the cockpit, what kind of equipment did you have in front of you?
WM: I know, I know that this is [?] navigational equipment that we could use. We had, we had G, we had Oboe, we had all sorts of different ones, yeah, mm.
TO: And how did G work?
WM: Well G was, G was in two, two, two beams, and where these two beams crossed, that’s where you were. It’s as simple as that.
TO: And did that improve navigation?
WM: Oh yes, yeah, mm. Well the H2S was a different story entirely. The H2S was you were beaming down and the more [?] water that was around the clearer the river [?] became, but your only trouble about that was the German fighters used to vector onto the, what we were, we were projecting. Sometimes that could become a hazard.
TO: And how many occasions do you think you deployed Window?
WM: Oh quite a number, even, even when we were doing training operations we were dropping Window, which we never counted, it didn’t count as operations as such. But we, we were dropping Window many a time, yeah, during training flights, mm.
TO: And when bombs were dropped from an aircraft, did the plane become noticeably lighter?
WM: Oh it came, you rose, you rose slightly yes, mm. All depends on how much, how much stuff you’re actually carrying or dropping.
TO: And could you please explain what the procedure would be for, in terms of what the crew would do, each crew member would do and say when you got over the target?
WM: Well each person had their own to do. The pilot, he was taking instructions from whoever was doing the, the lead onto the target. Sometimes we did that with myself, quite a number of times of course, and sometimes, sometimes it was the wireless operator, sometimes it was another, we had a radar operator as well, they used to use that over the targets ‘cause as I say, we were, we were still on special duties. Of course your gunners were always on the left and as I say, engineer, he had to be very careful then making sure everything was alright on his side, yeah. But everybody was active.
TO: Mhm. And were there ever any times on a mission when you could more or less relax?
WM: No [emphasis]. If you relaxed you, it was wrong. There’s many, many a time, many a time – what happened with us was that, and I’ve said this before, we never really relaxed until we were home. Can we give that a break for a minute? I’ll show you something.
TO: Yes, certainly [tape beeps]. Mhm. And did you or anyone else in the crew have a special name for your own aircraft?
WM: Yes, well we, we called our one after the Loch Ness Monster, that was it, yeah, mm [laughs]. It was, it was a favourite of ours you know, especially with two Scottish men was there [?] and we adopted, we adopted the rest of them, you know? Mm.
TO: [Paper turns] and when you were on missions, could you, or rather night missions, were there other British planes flying near you?
WM: All depends, all depends on what type of mission you were on.
TO: Mhm.
WM: Now, if you’re in the stream, well – at the beginning the squadron took off but you had a rendezvous point. A lot of rendezvous points were like Beachy Head, you know, and they used to assemble in that area and then they took off. And of course the thing about that was that the Germans also knew we were assembling at different places, and they could actually send out their night fighters if, if they did, you know? But there was, there were umpteen different places and they couldn’t, they couldn’t get to them all [emphasis] because often there was more than one raid on one night, on the same night. And that was deviations to keep away from maybe the real big one of that occasion, you know.
TO: And how many times a week would you go on a mission?
WM: Well sometimes it was night after night, three nights in one week [emphasis]. Sometimes according to the weather, it might be about eight days, maybe a week.
TO: Mhm.
WM: The weather had a lot to do with it you know?
TO: And were you ever escorted by fighters?
WM: We, well we, we were escorted ‘cause we did quite a few daytime raids, yes, we were. But we, we were quite, we were quite happy with that, mm. ‘Cause we used to see them, we used to see them on the verges of the, of the streams, you know, mm.
TO: And do you remember what kind of fighters they were?
WM: Well the ones that we saw was Mustangs, mm. All depends on how far in you were going. If you were going a long way in that was, that was a Mustang. Sometimes, sometimes it was a Hurricane, sometimes it was a Spitfire, mm. But they were only used as short flights, mm, whereas a Mustang was built for long range, mm.
TO: And was it cold aboard the planes?
WM: Oh it was never pleasant [laughs]. At one time everyone used to have a different [?] suit. It was like a fur jacket and things like that. But once we got onto the heavies they took all that stuff away from us, saying we didn’t need it. Well that was alright for these [emphasis] people, they weren’t flying [laughs], mm.
TO: And did you ever carry food with you aboard the plane?
WM: Ever carry?
TO: Food with you?
WM: No, all I carried, used to carry was five, five barley sugars, sweets.
TO: And what sort of entertainment did you have back at the airfields?
WM: Well all depends on what the, if it was, if it was one of the pre war stations there was generally a building that was used for dances and things like that, and concerts. If it was the war time ones then sometimes all you did was make sure there, there was an empty hangar and you had something in there. But, you know, that was how it was done, no. But that, that, that was the main thing of entertainment, you know, ‘cause the picture shows and things like that within the camp always started off as I say with propaganda [laughs], mm.
TO: When you saw those propaganda things, did you ever wonder whether they were being truthful?
WM: Well, the things we used to say ‘woah, woah, woah, woah’ [emphasis] and things like that, you know, the British sense of humour, you know, mm. And that’s a fact, mm.
TO: And were there any particularly popular songs?
WM: Oh yes there was all the, all the, I’ve got, I’ve still got all the tapes here of all the popular songs, mm, oh yes, I have all them, yeah. All of the artists at that time, yeah, and these artists I have, I have run [?] many a concert here and had the same ones come performing for me.
TO: And was there anyone that you knew of who refused to go on bombing missions?
WM: I never met anybody who refused to go on a mission, but I always remember there was two people who graduated and got their wings and then they, then they refused to go on ops. But that’s the nearest I ever came to it. But they never did any ops, they never were in, they weren’t even on a bombing station. And I’m sorry to say that we heard later on that they’d transferred to the Pioneer Corps and both of them got killed [pause].
TO: You mentioned that there was a raid where you had to attack a German warship in Kiel.
WM: That’s right.
TO: Do you remember its name?
WM: Not off hand, no.
TO: Would it be the Hipper?
WM: Oh it’s quite possible, it’s quite possible it was, yeah. I’ve got the date there, I told you the dates of it the other –
TO: Mhm.
WM: Yeah.
TO: I think I remember, I remember the sinking of the Hipper though because it was sunk on the 9th of April which coincidently is my birthday.
WM: Oh [emphasis].
TO: So –
WM: Oh [emphasis], 9th of April?
TO: I think I kind of have a selfish reason for remembering that if you see what I mean. Or maybe it was the Cher [WM laughs], I’m not sure. I do know though that –
WM: No, no, no. 9th of April [pause], 13th, 13th of April.
TO: What does it say was the target, or –
WM: That was in Kiel, mm, yeah. That was the 13 of April.
TO: Mhm.
WM: That’s what that was, that was the target.
TO: Mhm.
WM: That was the one that I told you that we, that we we bombed it that night and knocked it down and we had to go back again and make sure, one of [?] the chaps said ‘are you sure you don’t want us to put it back up again?’ [TO laughs]. ‘Cause you’d obviously got somebody –
TO: Mhm.
WM: Who [laughs] would give you an answer for something [laughs], mm.
TO: And were there ever any occasions were you could, where you ever flew over neutral territory and could see the cities all illuminated?
WM: There was one night we were, we were coming back from a trip, and the next thing I saw was these lights, and I thought ‘well what the hell is going on?’ And what had happened was that the [laughs], we were almost sent to Dublin, and what that was, was that the wind speed was ferocious and what we thought we’d found out was that we were nothing near [emphasis], we were nothing near the wind speed, what the actual wind speed was, and of course as soon as we saw that we turned round and we were on the way back.
TO: Mm.
WM: But that was the nearest I’ve been to being on neutral territory, you know.
TO: Mm.
WM: From that point of view, mm.
TO: Mm, and were there ever any occasions where you were accidently fired at by allied anti-aircraft guns?
WM: Well, what we, what we had was that we had the Junkers 52-53 aircraft, and we used to do special missions on that and we used to fly low [emphasis]. And what had happened was that that one had been liberated in the desert and we were using it on special duties, but there was no esigners [?], painted black, and going out was fine. Coming back [emphasis], it wasn’t until we got into our own territory that we used to get a few pot-shots at us, you know? Probably because [laughs] we were flying without the proper identification and things like that, that’s why we get into trouble. But we never actually, never actually had anything serious happen to us.
TO: Mhm.
WM: But that was under secret risk [?].
TO: Mhm. So was it, so you were trying to use, you were using German aircraft for the missions over France?
WM: Yeah.
TO: For the SOE.
WM: Yeah, SOE, yeah.
TO: So it wasn’t always Lysanders then?
WM: No we, we used many, you know, the Lysander was for the agents.
TO: Mhm.
WM: But as I said before we used to use other aircraft for taking other stuff in, for Maquis and things like that, you know.
TO: Mhm.
WM: Oh yes, mm.
TO: And did you ever meet any senior commanders during the war?
WM: Well every now and again you had a parade where we didn’t actually, we didn’t actually get to meet [emphasis] them as such. Not like, not like last Sunday, no.
TO: Mm. And were some missions much more dangerous than others or were they more or less the same?
WM: Well, what we used to do, we used to classify every mission as dangerous, because if you didn’t and you dropped your guard, that’s when you would have been in trouble. I don’t say they weren’t, but we never loaded [?] to be.
TO: And were there ever any times where you, where your missions were just taking photographs of areas?
WM: Oh yes, we had that [emphasis] from time to time, yes, mm.
TO: Could you tell me about any of those?
WM: Well they were, they were done by 138 Squadron and that was, you know, the idea behind that was sometimes it was targets, that they had been bombed, and sometimes they might have been targets that we flew past. We passed them as if we were going somewhere else and we might have been taking them then. But we got a lot of practice in that, because that’s another story I can give you, mm.
TO: And did you hear how other events of the war were going?
WM: Oh yes, we were kept up to date, we were kept up to date. As I say, between the news reels and bulletins, you were kept up to date, mm.
TO: Were you ever worried that Germany might win?
WM: Well, we, I would never say that, that I was frightened of them winning [?][emphasis], but we always worried every now and again where it might have been something that was going the wrong way, but not, not for an all out win no. No, no, no.
TO: And what was the most feared German night fighter?
WM: The Junkers-88, ‘cause she’d a cannon on her, and she, she actually fitted onto her guns that would fly, fire upwards and try and get under the bellies of the Lancasters. And that’s where we lost quite a number of Lancasters, firing guns from the, from the JU28, JU88s, yeah, mhm [pause].
TO: And did you ever feel any animosity towards Germany?
WM: Well, that’s a difficult one because, you know, there was people who lost friends, relations and all the rest of it. Some of them got quite bitter but on the whole people just took it as war.
TO: And how do you feel today?
WM: Ah, what I can say is that I have been involved in promoting rugby, football all over Europe and all over Africa, that’s my answer to that.
TO: And how do you feel today about your wartime service?
WM: It was something – when I had to something and that’s what I did, mm.
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
WM: I think yes. I think yes, because that’s another story I can tell you, that you haven’t asked me about.
TO: Yes, tell me, yeah.
WM: Well after, after the war finished, we still had special duties to do, and one of the first was to bring, bring back prisoners of war which were British, well there was all sorts involved but most of the ones we brought back were British, and a lot of the stories that they related to me including two of my uncles who were prisoners of war since 1940. Some of the stories they had to say was horrific. Anyway, when we finished that job bringing back the prisoners of war, we, we then went onto ferrying people from parts of Germany down into a place called Eastridge [?] in France and we had camps there where we took the refugees into, and a lot of these people thought that we were going to lock them up, same as they’d been before. But it was trying to tell them that it was to help them and that the, the camp was just secured so that the local people wouldn’t be coming in to try and get what they were getting, ‘cause this was to try and build them up again, you know. But then of course after that, the next big thing after that, we, we were put on photograph and the whole of Europe. We started off with photographing the likes of London from about two thousand feet, and then towns like [unclear] Woking here, from about four thousand feet and then the countryside was from, anything from ten to twenty thousand feet. We did that for the whole of Europe, mm. And that was 138, 138 Squadron again, because what we did, we’d started doing it at Tuddenham and then when they realised that we were quite successful, they transferred us over to RAF Benson and we did that over at Benson. And then of course we, we had several substations, substations in Norway, substations in France, we had substations around the country here at different places where we would load [?] to land and fuel up, and we had special signal recognition that we could, we could use and that went on for quite some, quite some time, ‘cause that photographing Europe was one of Churchill’s ideas that he left behind after he was out of office.
TO: And during those photography missions, could you see the damage from the bombing?
WM: Oh yes that was the idea, mm. Anyway you done it at two thousand feet you could see right down, no [unclear] of course, mhm, mm. That’s where we, well that’s where we started [emphasis] photographing, mm, but it was the while, the whole area was done, mm.
TO: Are there any other missions of the war that stand out a lot to you which you’d like to tell me about?
WM: Personal ones?
TO: Well any, any ones you were on from, that were missions that, but only if you’re willing to talk about, don’t if you –
WM: No.
TO: If you don’t want to talk about it it’s fine.
WM: No, as I say in general, in general we, we carried out what we had to do, and as I say, 138 Squadron of special duties, we were doing all sorts of things and there’s lots of things that, that we still should not talk about, because we are sworn to secrecy about them, because that was in conjecture [?] with SOE, ‘cause there was lots of people who maybe still, maybe not in favour of some of these operations.
TO: Mhm. What about some of the other bombing missions? Are there any others that you’d like, any others that stand out that you’d like to tell me about?
WM: You know, you know, the big, a big, a big thing was that there was missions we knew [emphasis] –about and there was other missions that people were on that we got to know about and [tape beeps] I can assure you that once the reason, these missions – people said ‘oh that could have been us,’ you know? ‘Cause even the Dambusters, ones we were a back up squadron for that. It wasn’t a method, it wasn’t just a method of a few fellows doing that, there was back up squadrons as well.
TO: And when did you hear about the Holocaust?
WM: Well that, that’s hard to say because we, we, we got, we got to know in bits and pieces. As I say, I started to learn a lot of that from our own prisoners of war that we were bringing home, and then of course we found out from other people who, who had been there in the camps. And, course the big thing about it was you didn’t realise just how widespread it was. I don’t think anybody did at that particular time. I know there was some friends of mine who visited Belson and visited the other ones in person and as I say, they were horrified how the treatment that people was getting. But that’s a different category all together you know, that was someone away from, away from a normal war. That was, that wasn’t the same.
TO: Were there ever any times when you were tasked with dropping leaflets?
WM: Oh yes we had that from time to time, mm, we had that, mm. We were never sure whether the leaflets were doing any good or not.
TO: Arthur Harris said after the war that never engaged in those leaflet dropping exercises because it only accomplished two things. One, it gave the German defenders practice in getting ready for the real thing and two, it supplied a substantial quantity of toilet paper for –
WM: That’s right.
TO: The Germans.
WM: That’s more or less correct, yes, mm.
TO: Mm [page turns]. Did you ever wish you’d been in something other than the Royal Air Force?
WM: I had been in the Guyun [?] Southern Highlanders –
TO: Mhm.
WM: But not, not an active service, no. But I never, never felt as if I should have been there, no.
TO: And did you ever wish that you hadn’t been an observer or a navigator? Did you ever wish that you’d been a different position on board the aircraft?
WM: Well we did, on aircrew we went around the different jobs in case anything happened to one of us up there. We actually flew in different positions [emphasis] from time to time [emphasis].
TO: So did you ever fly the Lancaster yourself?
WM: Oh yes, yes. Oh yes.
TO: But the pilot would always do the takeoff and landing?
WM: Well that was the idea, although we had to do, I had to be able to land the aircraft.
TO: Mhm. So would you consider yourself a flight engineer as well as an observer?
WM: No, observer, my observer, my observer – I covered all these courses –
TO: Mhm.
WM: As an observer, mm. The flight engineer came into his own with the four engine bombers, mm.
TO: And you mentioned you were on Wellingtons for a while.
WM: Mm.
TO: Were they generally reliable?
WM: Oh course [emphasis]. They were the most reliable bomber that we had.
TO: And did you hear about the, how the early bombing of the war was progressing?
WM: Well the thing is, everybody hoped that it was for the best because there’s everything else. There’s, the accuracy improved. Obviously the saturation bombing was started by the Germans. They started saturation bombing. Our people tried to go for individual targets and alright, after that there was [emphasis] saturation bombing, you know.
TO: And were your airfields ever attacked by German fighters?
WM: Not to my knowledge no.
TO: Mm. And I’m sorry to ask this, but were any of your friends killed during the war?
WM: Yes. A lot of school friends, school friends and friends from the Boys Brigade, oh yes, mm. School friends were the younger ones but the older friends were the ones I’d made through the Boys Brigade, and they were, most of them was on aircrew [emphasis], different categories.
TO: How, how was morale in Bomber Command throughout the war would you say?
WM: Good, it was good. It was excellent.
TO: And why do you think it stayed so high despite the losses?
WM: It was the camaraderie of sticking together, yeah, oh yes, mm. We were all volunteers, and we’re still volunteers [laughs].
TO: And you know after Dunkirk, was there a general fear of invasion?
WM: Not fear [emphasis] of invasion. There was, what did I say, there was – people didn’t think it was imminent but [phone rings] it could happen, you know? Hello?
Caller on the phone: Hello.
WM: Hello dear.
Caller on the phone: How are you?
WM: I’m very, very [tape beeps].
TO: And what did you think of the atomic bombs that were used against Japan?
WM: Well the big thing about that is that it could have happened to us, because as we know from hindsight, that the Germans had been working on that, and that could have been us. And of course, if the development of the V2s had come, could have come, come all the way across the Atlantic into America [emphasis]. As far as I’m concerned it’s, it’s one of these weapons that it could, it could obliterate mankind if it went on too long. And of course we noticed what happened with the aftermath of these things, but our war was nothing compared with that. I also, also think that if it hadn’t been for the, for the ones dropped in Japan that millions of troops would have been massacred, and it doesn’t say how far on everything else would have went if they hadn’t been dropped because that may have gone on for years and years and years, so it may have been at the time was a good thing.
TO: And, just going back to the crew that you were good friends with –
WM: Mm.
TO: Did, did they talk much about their lives before they joined the Air Force?
WM: Yeah, we all had that, but yeah. The pilot, pilot was a sheep farmer in New Zealand, our radar [?] man was an accountant in New Zealand, our wireless operator, his father had a joinery business across in Lanes [?] Bay, across the water from where I come from. The, the rear gunner was an, a surveyor for the [unclear] down the water here and the mid upper gunner his, his family had got a hotel in Canterbury in Kent, and that’s quite strange was that I got married on a Friday night in Scotland, and we had another party in the Fleur-de-Lis Hotel in Canterbury on the Wednesday following, because the crew was all going home to New Zealand and places like that. But no, we did, and as I say, Jimmy Dagg, his great-grandson is playing rugby as Israel Dagg for the All Blacks, [unclear] rugby, mm.
TO: And did you ever actually, I know you could see them from the sky, but after the war did you ever go through any of the cities like Berlin or?
WM: No I didn’t. All I did was flew, flew over them you know, mm.
TO: Mhm. And what’s your opinion on Britain’s involvement in recent wars like Afghanistan?
WM: Well there, there again the – that’s an entirely different thing. It all depends how far back you get. It’s always been said that, that nobody ever wins a war in Afghanistan, ‘cause even going back to even before Christ [emphasis] there’s been, been wars and people trying to take over and trying to settle Afghanistan region. But some, some of the other, some of the other wars that goes on, you just wonder why, no, because – on the other hand you don’t really get down to it, you know. The likes of Korea was quite a war, and also the McArthur at the time, he was right up to the Chinese border and he was, he wasn’t defeated or anything but the American government told him to come back, and of course that was reintruded when the, when the two states were formed, Northern and South of Korea. Now, if you talk about Sing, Malaysia. Now in Malaysia there was thousands of troops and everything in there, and where I was from in Africa, there was African regiments in there from, from Rhodesia, from Kenya, from Tanganyika. They were called the King’s African Rifles and they Rhodesians, the Rhodesian regiment, they were all involved in there, no. And then of course you got these other skirmishes up, was up in Europe and there again, they all seemed to arise from either petty politics or religions. If you, if you go into some of these other ones where there’s still fighting today, and you turn around and you say to Syria, but what is it? It’s one against one, it’s a civil war. That’s really what it is, but why can’t they get together on it? You know, there was a civil war in Spain pre-1938. Now that was a vicious war as well, but 1938, thirty-nine it came to a close and a person who took over Franco and the nation was brought together again. Before Franco died, he brought back the king and that was, that was brought back and that settled both people, both lots of the people in Spain. Now you see all these other ones that’s gone on, skirmishes and even in the South American countries, that’s all about drugs, that’s not really about people, it’s about drugs and things like that which is entirely [emphasis] different thing entirely [emphasis]. Now holy wars as I call them can never be settled, ‘cause one, one against the other they will never, never change [emphasis]. What happens with these things is they just goes on and on and on, and that, and that’s been going on for centuries, or one country wants to take over the other one and it’s through, it’s though their, their type of religions it happens, which is wrong.
TO: And one of my last questions now, what’s your best memory of your time in the war?
WM: When I met my wife [both laugh]. I came, I came back from a raid, a raid on Bordeaux and I was given three days leave. Instead of that I got it made up to ten days and I, I went home and I got a lift in fish truck. I was never sure if it was real fish or scrap fish for [laughs] for to go for manures or something like that. But anyway, I got there and the first thing my mother did was put all my clothes in the boiler and she’d have put me into the boiler if I hadn’t got into the bath. Anyway, that night I, I went along to the local dance, the big pavilion, the big high balcony and all the people up there spectating, and I was dancing with this young lady, and my friend wanted to dance with her. ‘Come on, come on, this is my one, you go and pinch your own lady,’ you know, ‘your own girl,’ you know? Anyway, what I didn’t know was that her mother and father, two sisters and sister-in-law and some kids were all up on the balcony, and every time I danced, being in the Air Force they were shouting ‘hooray,’ because their son Walter was in the Air Force in India, and my friend Vann Muir [?] was in the Navy, so I was winning according to them, and I did [laughs]. That was my happiest [emphasis] that was my happiest [emphasis] occasion in the whole war, mm.
TO: Mhm. Well that’s all of my questions –
WM: Alright.
TO: Do you have anything at all that you want to add?
WM: No, it’s just [unclear] want to say this, I’ve had another two of these interviews, there might be a little discrepancies or differences but –
TO: That’s fine.
WM: It’s all going from in here you know.
TO: That’s fine, your memory’s been great –
WM: Oh.
TO: And I’ve really enjoyed what you’ve told me.
WM: Oh, no.
TO: So thank you so much for telling me.
WM: Oh okay, thank you, welcome, thank you very much.
TO: Thank you so much for your wartime service as well.
WM: I must see you from time to time somewhere –
TO: Yeah.
WM: Along the line. You come to some of these gatherings from the Royal Air Force, I’ll be there.
TO: Mhm, thank you.
WM: Yeah.
TO: It would be great to see you.
WM: Thank you very much indeed.
TO: Thank you.
WM: Anyway –
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMooreWT160703
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Moore. Three
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:50:38 audio recording
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Tom Ozel
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-06
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Moore grew up in Scotland and volunteered for the Royal Air Force. He completed 36 operations as a navigator with 138 and 161 Squadrons.
Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
England--Suffolk
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Kiel
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Katie Gilbert
138 Squadron
161 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Bolingbroke
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
briefing
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
displaced person
fear
Gee
H2S
Hudson
Lancaster
Lysander
military service conditions
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Tempsford
RAF Tuddenham
Resistance
Special Operations Executive
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/307/8757/PMooreWT1506.2.jpg
ba450a2587f7d4bdd809b39eda3c5fa9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/307/8757/AMooreWT160318.1.mp3
06f88d173f760d9f30a9e3038f1f9794
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Moore, Bill
William Tait Moore
William T Moore
William Moore
W T Moore
W Moore
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Three oral history interviews with William Tait "Bill" Moore (1924 - 2019, 1823072 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He served as a navigator with 138 Squadron.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-28
2016-03-18
2016-07-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Interview Agreement Form - Moore, WT, William Moore-03
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Moore, WT
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 18th of March 2016 and I’m meeting with Bill Moore who was an Observer with the RAF and he is accompanied by his friend Tony Boxall. And we’re going to talk about Bill’s life from the earliest days to the periods after the war. So, Bill, could you start by telling us about your early days?
WM: Well, I was, I was born in a town called Dunoon in the West of Scotland in 1924 and I was, at that time, I was the eldest of three children, I became that, and then of course what happened? We moved house from a little single ended cottage and we moved in to a brand new council house. And of course we gradually became a family of five. I was the eldest of course, as I said, with —
CB: Keep going.
WM: With two sisters and two brothers. My, my father was a slater and plasterer, Builder, and my mother had been what later on in life people called them Land Army girls because she’d done that during the First World War and my father had been in the Royal Scots Fusiliers right through, right through the First World War. And later on he, he was, he was taken on ship board to India where they, they actually were the garrison at various towns for a, for a few years up to there, you know. Alright. And then, and then of course what happened was that he came back to Dunoon and met and married my mother and as I say he also then went back into the building trade, you know. That is the sort of life that people did, they were in the army and then back into Civvy Street and later on in life that’s exactly what happened to us. Now, I, I attended Dunoon Grammar School all the way though, Right from the infant class right through into, into High School and I enjoyed it. I was never a person who didn’t enjoy school and at the same time after school I worked in various sort of capacities like in butchers shops and deliveries and all these sort of things that, in those days, people had to do to help augment the family incomes. I left, I left school when I was thirteen. The reason why was because the incomes that they could draw at that time wasn’t sufficient to keep the family going and being the eldest one I was out of school, as I say, at thirteen and I [pause] I was employed. I was employed by people called the Richmond Park Laundry which is, or was at that time, the biggest laundry in Glasgow but which is now gone. Then what happened then was, was that the war clouds were coming and I joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps. The Air Defence Cadet Corps was the forerunner of the Air Training Corps. And of course to do that we had to go to Abbotsinch, which is now Glasgow Airport and that was where we, we got the feeling for the Royal Air Force. Also that was where I saw my first Wellington and we certainly fell in love with it because all the other aircraft that we had seen from there, there on for many years was all the old ones that had been scattered around the country. Then of course, when the, when the Air Training Corps started we changed over, we volunteered for that and on the, on the Tuesday night I joined up and signed up. I went back again on the Friday night and the Friday night I became a flight sergeant which was instant promotion. And the reason for that was, was that I had been in the Air Defence Cadet Corps. We er, what we did was we, we had courses run in the Dunoon Grammar School by teachers who had become officers in the Air Training Corps and one particular gentleman there — Mr D. J. McDermid was the one that I’d looked up to for many years through the Boys Brigade and other organisations like that. And also a Mr Oswald Brown. And Mr Oswald Brown was the mathematics teacher and of course he was the one who actually taught us the rudiments of navigation. And we did that until we were old enough to, to volunteer for the Royal Air Force. Now, during, during that time we sat the examinations and all the way up through till we were actually ready for the aircrew selection. When I was old enough I went to Edinburgh and I was on the selection course there. I come out with very high marks and I got my little silver badge and I then became a member of the Royal Air Force. We, we didn’t get a number but we had various facts and figures written down about what we were. Then of course you had to wait your turn until such times as, as they had space for you. Well that’s what they said. So you got called up and then of course you were VR. And we eventually went to London and, of course, with that of course that was ACRC and that was at Lord’s Cricket Ground along with many other people which was quite strange. I met one or two chaps that day from all over the country, Some of them that I was with for quite a long time and before we actually finished at ITW. From, from London of course we went to ITW and my ITW was Number 17 in Scarborough based at the [pause] now what was it? Based at one of the, one of the hotels in Scarborough. And likewise of course in Scarborough there was about five other different ITWs. My, my hotel that I eventually landed up with was the Adelphi Hotel which was right above the Italian Gardens in Scarborough itself. In the Italian Gardens there was all the swimming pool and all the little offices attached to the swimming pool and that is where we did all the navigation and training like that, in the actual [pause] actual course at Scarborough. The gymnastics, the PT and all that other stuff was held at Scarborough College which was a very good asset. We had our own swimming pool in the Italian Gardens so that was also very good for us. Most of our drill and disciplinary actions was taught on the esplanade in front of the Adelphi Hotel and above the Italian Gardens. We [pause] we had a small, a small flight, and a few days after we were beginning to settle down, we got quite a surprise and we had a group of Belgian boys came across and joined us. They joined us there and it was a very good experience because most of them had been through High School and their English was very good compared with our limit in French or whatever dialect they said that they spoke. But it was very good because we got a good background of the continent which most of us had never had. Well, on completing of the ITW course I was given a job which was a temporary thing, I became the rations officer and I used to deliver all the foodstuffs from the main offices in Scarborough to all the different ITWs and that lasted for a couple of weeks. It was very good to get a responsibility like that because you really had to make sure that everything was right on the button. Otherwise, the sergeants and people in charge of all the kitchens as you went around certainly were very tough on you. During, during that particular time we, we went round all, all the various ITWs in Scarborough and as a matter of courtesy we actually visited one after the other and they did the same to us. And then of course we used to always go on a journey, see all the different church parades, you know. And an aside to one thing was my great friend here — and Ernie Taylor his name, who later became a fighter pilot in Spitfires and Hurricanes and Mosquitos, and although we were in Scarborough at the same time and been on parades at the same time and did various other things we never actually met up and we didn’t meet up officially until I came here in nineteen eighty — [pause] I beg your pardon, in [pause] yeah, 1983, when I returned from Africa. But that’s a different story, I can come back to that one. When people had vacancies for us then we went to different places from Scarborough. Well the first place that I went to was to Scone, Scone in Scotland. Just outside of Perth, and that was where we were, we were flying on Tiger Moths. We did the course there And anybody who has ever been to Scone Airport always remember that they had a bump in the, in the runway and when you went down there you lost the horizon, then all of a sudden you were airborne, and if you missed the bump you were always in trouble. But that was it, it was a good thing to know. And the instructors there were mainly, mainly chaps who’d, who had served all over world with the Royal Air Force. A lot of them had been out in the desert, various ones, And they had been recalled for to train people like us. Especially at Scone near where we were. Well we, we actually graduated from there and in those days you said that you were a LAC, Leading Aircraftsman, Which was quite good, It meant that you got a few more shillings in your pocket but that was about all it was. Sometimes they didn’t even have time to issue the propeller to you, but before you knew where you were you were away doing something else. But anyway, what happened to us, I say us because there was a few from 17 ITW, we, we went to a place called Broughton-in-Furness. Now Broughton-in-Furness — that, that was a, like an escape course, or a commando course or whatever you wanted to call it but really and truly it was like an escape course and you were taught all the rudiments of, of the bush. Well, as a matter of fact being a country boy I quite excelled in that and I got the red lanyard again which I already had when I’d been at Scarborough which gave you a little bit of authority, but as soon as the parades were off you took the lanyard off and that was it. But the lanyard, lanyard was just to give you that bit of authority for parades etcetera, etcetera. From, from there we went to, to Manchester, to Heaton Park. Now, Heaton Park you were either billeted in the Nissen huts which was standard accommodation, about fourteen men to a hut, or you were lucky enough to be billeted outside in somebody’s back room, Or front room, And we enjoyed that for, for a couple of weeks. We were actually put in to a lady’s front room, Two of us, And that was a chap called Alec Kerr and myself, And Alec was one of the ones that, from Peterborough, that I had met on that first, first day in London. It seemed to be that we kept bobbing up wherever we were on, maybe because Kerr and Moore was near enough on the alphabetical list. But anyway we shared the room there and if we gave the lady a half a crown a week each she used to leave the window open so that there was no bother about coming home at night time. But that was, that was more or less just across the road or nearby to Heaton Park. We never took advantage of it, always made sure that we were in before midnight although you were supposed to be the same as the camp, in about half past ten, you know. Well once we got over that stage we were called up into the park and put into a Nissen hut, the same as everybody did, and then we did some more drill and discipline and listened to the Royal Air Force tunes that was drummed into you so that you’d know whatever was being sounded was what you did. And of course if the, if the tunes came up to a certain degree then you had to — whatever you were doing — you had to march to attention, and if you got caught not marching to attention when these tunes were being played you found yourself on KP or something else like that. I managed to avoid that so I was quite lucky. Maybe it’s because it was drummed into my head that you always smartened yourself up whenever these tunes were played. Anyway, we, we eventually got we didn’t really do a lot of, we had a lot of talks on various things but we didn’t do any stuff for examinations. But all of a, all of a sudden you began to, you began to assemble in to different groups, your name was put here and then was put there and it wasn’t alphabetical either and the next thing you knew that you were ABC or DEF or whatever else it was, and eventually these groups were how you were going to be posted away from, from Heaton Park. And with that at Heaton Park — Heaton Park I was, I was KL and KL and M was quite good for me, I didn’t know too much about it and neither did anybody else. But one day, one day we were fitted out with kit and we were told that we would probably go to Rhodesia, And everybody said, ‘Oh. We’re going to Rhodesia. Oh that’s — that’s a cushy number there. You go all the way in the boat and then you go to Cape Town and then you go on a train and you go all the way up to either Salisbury or Bulawayo.’ Well everybody thought oh this is, this is good, anyway , that was a special uniform you got for going to Rhodesia, it was different from those who went to South Africa. Anyway, what happened then was that we, we started assembling in these groups. So the groups one day were 12 o’clock noon, the bell went and we formed up and the next thing we were told, ‘Get your kit together. You’re off.’, ‘Oh. We’re off. Where are we going?’, ‘We’re not telling you where you’re going. You’re off.’ So we got all this kit and we went to Liverpool and [pause] a little memento here of a ship called the Andes, A N D E S, which was a brand new ship just before the war. That ship had come up the Clyde in to the Holy Loch in all its glory because it was supposed to be on the South American run. And it was a beautiful ship, all brand new, And we boarded this ship in Liverpool. And who was beside me? Alec Kerr. Oh, ‘Alec. How did we manage this?’, He said, ‘I don’t know.’ He says, ‘Just the names seemed to come up again and we’re here together.’ I said, ‘Oh good.’ So, anyway we went down to K deck, I thought it wasn’t bad, it was well down in the ship but being a new ship it was quite good. Anyway, we, we stayed there overnight. The ship didn’t move. And we had another fellow with us there and his name was Ted Weir, and Ted Weir was thirty three. Thirty three. And we were only leaving UK. So he said, ‘My God,’ he said, ‘my wife’s expecting a baby,’ and we said, ‘What? You’re an old man for having a baby.’ He said, ‘Yes. I’ve just got word.’ I said, ‘What are you going to do?’ He said, ‘I’m going to slip off tonight and go and see the baby. In case I never get another chance.’ I said, ‘Alright. Alright Ted. How are you going to do it?’ He said, ‘I’m going to go down the anchor [inaudible].’ I said, ‘Well if you don’t come back you’re in big trouble.’ Anyway, about 2 o’clock in the morning and he came back. We hadn’t moved. So Ted Weir, thirty three plus, had seen his baby, a little boy with ginger hair like him, so he was quite happy. But we never saw the baby, we never saw photographs but we were told plenty about him. So anyway around about mid-day the next day the Andes took off. So anyway away we go, away we go down the Mersey and around the top of Northern Ireland. We were sailing well and it was good weather, we went, ‘Oh this is a piece of cake. Nice cruise we’re on on a ship.’ So there we go. Judgement, you know. I said, ‘We’ve left. We’ve left Ireland now. We’re heading for the Bay of Biscay.’ Anyway, that night we were up on a deck and I said to, I said to Alec and Ted, I said, ‘This ship’s going the wrong way.’ And they said, ‘You and your Clyde navigation.’ I said, ‘Me and my Clyde navigation. We’re going the wrong way.’ So, in the morning we were back in Liverpool, right back where we left. Anyway, we wondered what was going to happen there, so we were told to keep our kit all close together and all the rest of it. Anyway, I looked across from where we were, out and I said to, I said to Alec, I said, ‘The 534.’ And Ted Weir said, ‘What’s the 534?’, I said, ‘I’m not telling you. You might be a spy,’ you know. He says, ‘Come on Bill. Tell me. What’s the 534?’, ‘Oh a 534’s got three funnels hasn’t it?’ He said, ‘Yes.’, ‘Well that’s the Queen Mary.’ [pause] So we, we were twelve hours later, we were on the Queen Mary and the next thing we knew we were heading west. So where did we go? We landed up in New York. We were only in New York about twenty four hours, a bit longer. We had a great crossing, everything was fine. And as I say we got in to New York and we had a bit of shore time which was unusual. We were given strict instructions that you would be in the chucky if, if you didn’t come back in time. So anyway they trusted us so off we went, came back, and we, we were taken to the train station as they call it there. And we were all put on these lovely trains with beds and everything, you know, so, oh this is ideal. Anyway, it was American trains and sometime, sometime the following morning we pulled out and we wondered where, where we were going. There was all sorts of bets on, we were going to Arizona, we’re going to this, we’re going to that. No, no, we didn’t go there. We went to Moncton, New Brunswick, in Canada. And that’s where we, where we started getting a bit of trouble because we, we didn’t have much uniform. Some of it, we’d changed some of the stuff, you know. Typical Air Force . You weren’t allowed this if you had that and things like that. Anyway, we walked around there and the saying up there was like a squaw and later on in life I used to call like a ‘Matabeleland nanny,’ you know. Anyway, we got up there and Moncton, Moncton, New Brunswick was the centre in Canada where, where people were sent all over Canada and sometimes down to the States etcetera, etcetera, you know, so once we get up there then we found out what we were actually going to do. Anyway, Alec Kerr and Ted Weir and myself, we were still together and, well it was more luck than judgement, and we didn’t do much there. As a matter of fact we learned, we learned all the names for Canadian names, American names for things. Pie a la mode for a sweet and this, that and the next thing. All the fancy things which we thought we might be getting to eat. Although the diet there was terrific compared to what we had in the UK, the UK diet was excellent. Plain Jane and no nonsense but when we got to, we got to New Brunswick we even got ice cream and things like that. Anyway, one day we, our names appeared on, on a notice board and we were deftly got different parades as people called it in the Air Force , you know. Now, when you join the Air Force you volunteer, butthat’s the last time you ever volunteer for anything, so by this time we were just told what we were going to do. So some people were down for pilots, some people for navigators, some people for wireless operators, all sorts of different things come up, you know, and then of course there was various other bits and pieces that came up, you know. Anyway, we went off in the train and about five, about five days later we got to Winnipeg. We changed trains in Winnipeg, all the way across to Canada to there. We’d actually been in one train and one bed and we used to get off and stretch our legs and get an hour or so while they put new coal and stuff on the, on the train and then we went back on and away we went to the next station. And we had quite a wee bit, and there was one, there was one time I was off and somebody says, ‘You’d better have a haircut’. I said, ‘Alright. I’ll have a haircut’. So I went in and typical me, you know, I went in and I said, ‘Can I have a haircut please?’, ‘Yes. How would you like it?’, ‘Oh I don’t want it, I don’t want it too short and I don’t want it long otherwise I’ll be in trouble’., ‘We’ll give you a Canadian one’., ‘Ok. Fine’. Anyway, I got settled back in the chair and the next thing I knew it cost me fifteen bucks because I went to sleep. I’m still a person who could go to sleep with just sitting, sitting around for a few minutes. Anyway, when I woke up, he says, ‘Yes. You agreed. Every time I told you what you wanted you nodded your head’. I said, ‘Oh. Thank you very much’. So I was fifteen bucks short. Anyway, that was alright. Well, eventually from from Winnipeg we went up to Manitoba. Dauphin, Manitoba. Right up, right up in the top of Manitoba itself, right up north, Dauphin and Paulson and various places like that. And we looked around for the town. It was a hamlet. Dauphin wasn’t too bad but Paulsen, I think it was twelve, twelve houses that was there, you know and we had, we had more people in the camp then there were civilians around us, you know. Anyway, that was quite good. We, we went training there and we did, we did the basics of gunnery there, and started off with the, we had 22s and we did a lot of clay pigeon shooting in the hangars because by this time there was six feet of snow outside, you know. And we didn’t, we didn’t go very far, but we got one or two flights in those Ansons, the early ones, so that wasn’t bad. Getting us accustomed to, to flying as they called it and then, and then of course what happened after that was that they began to tell us what we were going to do. Well some of the chaps, some of the chaps were down as pilots and they went off to another ‘drome nearby. Some of us took in navigation, and some, some took in wireless and gunnery. But what we did was we did the whole lot, we did POSB, you know. And that was, that was the, we all took the full course pilot — pilot, observer, navigator the whole thing, you know. We were beginning to find out what it was all about. It was very gentlemanly, there was civilian pilots and civilian instructors, things like that. All sort of chaps in their early thirties — early forties or thirties and they were our instructors. Anyway, about a few weeks later we were divided up again and this time it was a full, a full gunnery course that we did, everybody had to do that. We had a full gunnery course, and then we had a wireless course, and that kept us the whole time. Even the gunnery course kept us going the whole time. And you might, you might have, instead of maybe having five or six courses for gunnery or something like that they slackened down so you were beginning to realise what you were actually going to do. So what we did then, what we did then was we went across to the pilot’s school. They never told you whether you failed or otherwise. They would say we need seven pilots and that was seven pilots. The first seven in the list became pilots and the rest of us then went in for, for navigation and bomb aiming, and we still carried on with the wireless and we still carried on with the gunnery. Then of course we went up and the next thing, the next thing what we knew was we were concentrating more on navigation than we were anything else although we still carried on every now and again, keep our hand in at wireless, at wireless and gunnery. Well we actually graduated in each of these places and were passed on to different, different sections there and then we had a big change. We went over to Dauphin. Dauphin, Dauphin was quite, quite a town by their standards, there were shops in the village and places like that and we got quite friendly with the local people, and I got friendly with a couple who’d come out from Scotland many years ago. And they had a grown up family of a son who was already in the Air Force and a daughter and there was another girl who stayed with them and she was the fiancé of the son. Anyway, that’s another little story. Anyway, we were quite friendly with them and visited them when we could and had the usual, we had our Christmas lunch there for a start. We went to dances, we went to everything in our spare time, the usual sort of thing. Made ourself, we were told to mix which was very good. And then of course we went up through and you actually, you actually graduated or you failed. If you didn’t graduate and you failed then you were sent to a straight gunnery school and that was, that was to be, that was just to be on a gunnery course. There was no shame to it, it was a good course. Other people went to wireless operator and gunnery, that was also a good course but certainly a little bit different. Anyway, we did, we went on to the straight navigation course and that was, that was fine. Then of course we graduated. You didn’t get any, any stripes, you didn’t get any. You just, just moved out and of course by that time they had, they had AC2s and AC1s instead of the, instead of the LACs so we never did get these props, but we were changed from LACs to AC1s. Anyway, the next thing we knew we had, we had a week’s leave, a week to ten days leave and which was very nice. We got rail warrants for where we could go and all the rest of it, that was ideal. And then we came back and when we come back from there we actually got posted to different places and I got posted to a place called Portage la Prairie. Now Portage la Prairie is a very special, a very special school. Portage la Prairie was Number 7 Observer School. In other words you are doing things slightly different from navigation and we concentrated a lot on [pause] on different, different subjects and one of them of course was low flying and be able to map read. That was quite easy in Canada but, anyway, later on it was a different story. But that was, that was Portage la Prairie. Now Portage la Prairie is still going today and every four years the commandant of Portage la Prairie comes across here to the UK and he and his family take up residence here, and I have, I have met three different families now that came from Portage la Prairie. Anyway, going back, going back to Portage we did this specialised training, navigation etcetera, etcetera like that and observer training and then we, we went in to, we went into Winnipeg. We went to Winnipeg and we attended various courses in there which we didn’t really know what it was all about but it was courses that we were really specialists in. That was what it was, we were specialists in different things, you know. Then we went back of course to, we went back of course to the main station again, and then we got leave. We got some leave and I managed to, I managed to get to see quite a bit of Canada. And then the next thing we knew we were back in Moncton. Moncton, New Brunswick. In Moncton, New Brunswick we had, we had maybe a week or a couple of weeks or whatever, whatever was, until we actually got sent back to the UK. Now, when, when that, when that happened you were called in to a room and we were allowed two big full size kit bags. One that you could take your Air Force kit in and one that you could put all your civilian stuff in, including all the things that you’d bought when you were in Canada and the States and things like that. [pause] And then of course what happened, you were told that you might have a preference of flying back which meant that you could only take one, one kit bag with you and that would, that would be your service kit bag and the other one would come later. On the other hand if you, if you went by sea, returned by sea, you could take the two of them. So at that time everybody thought, ‘Oh well. Everything we’ve saved up for is in that other kit bag.’ [laughs] So we opted to try and get back by, back by sea. So anyway that did happen and we went down, we went down to, [pause] we went down to the railway station this day with all our kit and there we were heading towards the sea. So we went down and when we went down there, there was a ship there. And this ship that was in the dock, I recognised it, and I was just saying to the fellows that were with me, my other two friends had gone, but other ones, I said, ‘This looks like the Empress Line, you know’, ‘Oh. Empress. How do you know that?’ I said, ‘They used to sail down the Clyde every Friday night and we used to watch them, you know. So, anyway, this one turned out and it was named the Empress of Scotland, you know. As I was walking around it I picked up a little bit of information. It used to be the Empress of Japan and during the war they had changed it, changed it from the Empress of Japan to the Empress of Scotland. So, that was Halifax that we were in. So what we did was one day we up-anchored and away we went and of course as we were going out there we were, we had some little ships, something like the corvettes that we had in the UK, and they followed us out quite a bit in to the Atlantic. Then one morning they weren’t there, so you were on your own. Anyway, we, we were sleeping once again away down in the depths of the ship and we said, ‘You know, if we go down there and we are in the mid-Atlantic and we get torpedoed I don’t think we’d ever get out of there you know’, because we timed it and the timing was pretty good because we’d done two or three different runs. And we said, ‘Oh bugger it. We’ll try and sleep up on deck’, but by this time it was summer weather so we actually slept up on deck. And then one day I looked up and I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I know where we are’, I said, ‘We’re heading for the Clyde’. And we did. And we sailed right up the Clyde, up to Gourock and we lay off Gourock there and I saw a lot of the older men who were working on the boats there that I knew from my home town. Dunoon area. But we weren’t allowed to talk to anybody. We were told, ‘No, No, No, No, We don’t want anybody to know where you’ve come from or anything like that.’ So we got down and got onto a boat which was called the Queen Mary 2 and the Queen Mary 2 was a passenger boat that used to ply between Gourock and Greenock and Dunoon on the Clyde but she was bare by this time and she was painted grey the same as the rest. But she was used to ferry people from the liners across to Gourock or Princes Pier, and what happened then was that you went on a train to somewhere, you know. And of course eventually, eventually we did that. And we landed up, landed up in, we landed up in Yorkshire, that’s where we got to, you know. And we got there and we were billeted in one of the colleges and that was great. There was running hot and cold water and things like that and at night you could get out and you could go up to the pub because you’d already been given some money, British money, and we had two or three days there, you know and during this time this friend of mine and I’d met up with Alec Kerr again and we, we went in to this pub and I looked in this big mirror, you know and I said, ‘Look, I know that chap, that Canadian over there’. He said, ‘No you don’t’, I said, ‘Look. I’ll bet you a couple of pints’. He says, ‘Are you sure? Alright I’ll take you on’, ‘Alright’. I said. I said, ‘Yeah. I’m sure. Are you betting against me?’ He said, ‘Yeah. You don’t. There’s so many Canadians here’. Anyway, I went up to him and I said, ‘Oh by the way that was a nice wristwatch that you gave to your girlfriend at Christmas’. He was just about ready to put his [inaudible] up. He said, ‘Why?’ I said ‘Because I took her to a dance’, you know. And I said, ‘Draw that back’, I said, ‘Your names Nicholson, you know. And your, your girlfriend is staying with your mother and father because your parents are working on the railway’, you know. [laughs]. So what he was going to do to me, you know. Anyway, it was quite fun. We had, we had these couple of pints and we had a good night and he had to go his way and we went ours, I never saw him again after that. But it was quite strange. By the time I got home my mother and his mother had been corresponding, you know and she knew all about him and all the rest of it and that was it, you know. And apparently, apparently, the other one knew all about me, you know. [laughs] But from there, from there we, we were, we were back in the Royal Air Force, you know. It was entirely different again you know. Back in the Royal Air Force. This time we were shipped, shipped down to [pause] where would we call it? [pause] My kid’s staying there at the moment. I’ll get back to it. Let me get this. [pause] What — it was a station. The station is Halfpenny Green, you know and we, there were several of us went there, about a half a dozen, but other ones were scattered all over the place, you know. And once, once we get into Halfpenny Green we discovered that we were on specialised training of low level flying on the, on the new Anson, you know. And we did all sorts of stuff but this time of course it was Royal Air Force pilots and they were a lot of chaps who had actually been on service and they’d been lucky enough to have done a tour on something or someway and landed up there on the same as us, low level flying. But as I say most of them were actually stationed there and knew they were there for a while. Anyway, we went, we went there and we actually wondered why we were doing this because really and, really and truly it was just about the only thing we did. We did the night flying and we did this, we did that. We was also a lot of it was either moonlight or daylight. Anyway, what happened then was, of course what we didn’t know was that we’d been selected, selected for duties where, where your low level flying and stuff like that was good, you know. Of course, anyway, by that time that was one of the things we wondered why but you never asked too much. And then of course you had some night flying where you’re up flying low over Wales and all the rest of it and going, actually doing bombing runs under different bridges there and things like that just to keep your hand in, and then eventually we went to, we went to different, different stations again, you know. From [pause] from there [pause] sorry about that.
CB: Do you want to stop for a mo?
WM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
[Recording paused]
WM: I had a break there.
CB: We’re re-starting.
WM: Fine.
[pause]
CB: Ok.
WM: From there we were actually transferred to a secret ‘drome. We didn’t believe it was secret until we got there. As a matter of fact on the way everybody was saying it must, it must be like an ordinary station, and then as we, as we get nearer there with the talk that was coming back to us it really was secret, and that turned out to be Tempsford. Now, the big thing about that was, was that the first thing you did when you get inside you get lined up and you had a nice, sort of friendly talk. And they said, ‘Right you’ve now got to sign the Secrets Act again but this time it’s for real.
CB: Right.
WM: If you talk about anything and it gets out anywhere you will be shot, that’s how serious it is. And as a matter of fact a couple of times the little pub there — The Wheatsheaf — was closed because they thought that it might have been that some information might have been getting out through the pub. There was always the chance that somebody might have said something, although , as I say, we were sworn to secrecy. Now, what we didn’t realise at the time was what we were going to do because nobody told us and nobody would tell us. Now, after, after about a week I think what had been they were actually assessing our characters as they could see them there. They began to take confidence in us and give us that little bit of confidence, you know, and then we found out what it was all about. At that time the CO come in and he spoke to us and he told us what it was all about. And then we realised to what extent the secrecy was demanded because not only was the fact was that the people you were taking in to the occupied countries were in danger of their life but you also were. And what was given to us was, ‘You don’t communicate with them, and they don’t communicate with you’. I do know for a fact that the Americans later on when they started getting into things they used to call the people Joe’s and things like that, but we were not for that at all. We did not say, we did not take, if you turned around and say, ‘You’ve got a bunch of Joe’s there’ well right away people would know you had a bunch of people and where they come from. But the big thing about it was that in most times you just went out on one aircraft to one airfield, and that wasn’t too bad at all. Although there was a couple of occasions where about twenty agents who had been rounded up and all shot out of hand by somebody who had given, given them away, and that happened to be a person of the same nationality. We don’t like to say exactly what it was, I know people have written about it. But on the other hand is this, that we don’t like to think that, that the people helping our agents once on the ground was people that gave them away but it’s a sad story to say that it was. The worst part of that from time to time was in Holland, you know. And the bad thing about it was that the man who was responsible for so many deaths at one time was actually based in London, you know. He was, he was a, he was a Dutchman, yeah, and of course the Dutch people are still horrified about that, you know. That their own people could give them away, you know. Anyway, what did happen was that we were told exactly what was going to happen was that you would be allocated a pilot because then by that time I was classified as an observer. You had your pilot and you and he actually spoke over about what was going to happen. Once we knew where we were going and how many people we were liable to be taking. Well the thing is this. You can all imagine about Lysanders, they can’t carry very many people, but the lighter the people were the more we could actually take and that was a fact. And of course we were, we were told all sorts to keep our weight down. Now, I can assure you that it wasn’t too hard to do that but at the same time you had to make sure that you kept within limits. Now, when, when an operation was on, whatever was going to happen, however you wanted to count it or name it then everybody, everybody who was concerned once again knew what was going on. They knew how secret it had to be, they knew that people’s lives were depending on it, whether it was the team flying them out or the people going out. Now, what did, what did happen was that going back, going back to the time of navigating and taking everything on the map-readings and being able to do that. Nine times out of ten we were jolly lucky but sometimes you might have been landing in a field which was next door to the one that you were supposed to be landing, and the ground wasn’t exactly good. But, of course, the fields that we were landing on had, nothing had been done to them since the pre-war days and one or two of them had been glider schools that people had been taught to glide from, because then these fields had been disbanded and walked away from, you know, and people kept away from them. But they were the kind of fields that were the best for landing on. They had been, they had been more or less gone over in early days because gliding, gliding in Europe was quite a sport before the war. It wasn’t too, too strong in the UK but in, in Europe it was very strong from time to time, you know. And of course, as I say taking, taking people in it was the big thing was to make sure where you were going, how long it would be and as much as possible you had to be exactly on time because a few minutes either way could have cost people their lives because there was people that was coming in to meet the ones that was being taken in and there was also people further along the lines to receive them, so everything had to be timed exactly. If you had strong headwinds going across to the continent and you might have lost twenty minutes or things like that. That was too bad but at the same time, at the same time you had to try and do something about it. And the best thing that we used to do was to try, try and get that little bit extra speed and keep down as low as we could, then of course you had, you had more dangers than you normally would have with wires and all the rest of it, you know. But everything was done more or less by moonlight and that was as best as we could do it. The big, the big thing about it was trust. Now, with the early, the early days there was quite a few of the chaps who were flying there had, had been flying over that area either as people who had money and could fly about etcetera, etcetera or they were people who had been in flying clubs, so they were the best people to get some of the ideas from of how you could do it. Now, the big thing too was that we had, we had some officers with us who were exceptional in whatever it was, whether they were pilots or whether they were navigators or whether they were doing exactly what we were doing, you know because [pause] when they, when they told you about things you certainly listened to them.
[pause]
WM: After a while we actually got, we got some twin-engined aircraft from America and with them they were quite good because they were actually designed to land in the Prairies in Canada or America and their undercarriage was strong. That the likes of the fields that we were operating on they could be taken in and that was, that was one of the good things that happened there. Now there was one particular night and we were loaded up with guns and ammunition and all these sort of things for the Maquis and we had our target where we had to take it to. Anyway, we set off and we had just the three of us in the aircraft. There was the skipper, myself and another chap who, well, nowadays you would call him a loadmaster or something like that. He was the chap that made sure that the load was alright, well maybe that was where the name came from, I don’t know, but that was what he always had to do. Anyway, this particular night we came in to this ‘drome which had been an airfield for, for the [pause] I beg your pardon, an airfield for the gliders. As we came up and we turned around we began to sink. And we felt, well, that would be alright. Nobby turned around and said, ‘Its alright Bill. Once we get rid of this stuff we’ll rise alright’. you know. So Jim, in the back, shouts, ‘Well I bloody well hope so. I don’t want to be kept around here for a while’, you know. Anyway, what did happen was that the Maquis came there with their person in charge, they got all their stuff away and off they went into the bush and that was the end of them. They were gone. Anyway, we tried to get out and we hadn’t got out at all, we’d got out a little bit. Not bad. Anyway, the leader of the group on the ground, and it was a lady, and what she says was, ‘We’ll get you out. Don’t worry. We’ll get you out.’ And we said, ‘How?’, ‘Oh we’ll get you out’. So she actually went to the village and she rounded up everyone in the village and of course they weren’t supposed to move, they weren’t supposed to go out after dark, but man, woman and child all came out to help get us out and of course they had to try and find articles that would help. Anyway, when they were half way up they met a German sergeant, and the German sergeant said, ‘Right. You people. You shouldn’t be out at night time. What are you doing?’ Or words to that effect. And she says, ‘We’re trying to get your big black aircraft out of the mud and the Gestapo’s going to shoot us all including you if we don’t get the job done’. So he says, ‘That’s alright. I’ll go and look after the village and you can get the aircraft out’. So, anyway, he went back to the village and they got us out, but that was about an hour and a half on the ground instead of, at the most, twenty minutes. And as I say when we took off that was one of the best take-offs we ever had because we made sure that she was up and ready to go. But the only thing, time, well, what used to happen to us was we used to get the odd chap on the ground who heard an aeroplane coming and you used to hear ‘bang, bang’ and he would shoot at us with a rifle or something like that, or sometimes even thought it was somebody with a shotgun because we didn’t know it at the time but when you got back again you found the results on your aircraft. And these old aircraft, they could take it you know which was, which was a big thing. But that that was the nearest that we got to ever being interned because we were, we were very lucky. I put, I put it down to each of us doing our own work, you know and able to do the job that we set out to do. There’s the big black box down there if you want to take it home and use it. Would you like to use it?
CB: Yeah.
WM: [laughs] Do you know what it is?
CB: No. What is it?
WM: What is it Tony?
TB: I don’t know. What are we talking about?
WM: In there. Around this side. [pause] Down.
TB: That. No. Where am I looking?
CB: We’ll have a look in a minute.
TB: Yeah.
WM: Over there.
TB: Ok.
WM: No. The big thing. The big thing down there.
TB: I don’t know.
WM: It’s alright. It’s been shifted. The girl shifted it. Sorry. I beg your pardon for this.
CB: That’s alright.
WM: It’s —
TB: Not this.
WM: No. It’ not that, Tony.
CB: We’ll have a look in a minute.
TB: Yeah.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Sorry. Sorry about that.
CB: That’s alright.
WM: Ok. Not to worry Tony.
TB: Oh.
WM: I know where it is now.
TB: Oh.
WM: She shifted it. I’ve got somebody that comes in, I beg your pardon, anyway , as I say between, between our training and respect for each other and what we did, I reckon that is why we survived. And not only that but the code of silence that we had. Now, what did happen was that later on, later on, once, once it started getting where they didn’t need so many people on the ground in Europe then we moved over to Tuddenham and then to Bomber Command, you know. And then later on all the station and everything else moved away from Tempsford across to Tuddenham, you know. And what happened was that the chap that I was flying with in the beginning, a chap called Murray, by that time he was, he was our wing commander. And he was the wing commander for 138 Squadron after the war as well for quite some considerable time, you know. Now, what happened, what happened to me was that on Bomber Command we did, we did thirty six ops on Bomber Command over and above what we did for the other ones but from time to time, our people just called them trips, there was no such thing as tours with us. It was if the old man let you off for a few days you got off for a few days. If he couldn’t afford to let you go you didn’t get, that’s how it was and you also had to make sure that you didn’t talk about what you were doing there. And that wasn’t just on the oath but that was also on the comradeship that we, that we had there, you know. Anyway, after that, after the end of the war the next thing we did was to fly back, fly back all our ex-prisoners of war and we were flying them back and also we were designated to take displaced persons down through France, down to the South of France, you know, and they had special camps there for them, to help them get rehabilitated, you know. And one of the biggest ones was at Istres you know.
CB: The who?
WM: Ist ISTRVS. In the south of France.
TB: Istrvs.
WM: Then of course, after a while there was three crews selected with their Lancasters and their ground crews and we went to RAF Benson. And we didn’t know what we were doing at first but eventually we found out what it was and one of the things that Churchill wanted was to have everything photographed from the air. The likes of London and cities like that we photographed them all from two thousand feet, then smaller towns. went I down gradually to about ten, fifteen thousand feet, and then of course the countryside was at twenty thousand feet. We didn’t only do the UK and Ireland but we also did right from the North of Norway all the way, right down to the Mediterranean and as far around to the east as we could go and come back on the fuel that we had. And that was an operation that had been put in place by Churchill when he was still in office, you know.
CB: So this was coastline? Coastlines?
WM: Sorry?
CB: Just the coastlines.
WM: No. No. Internal cities. Everything.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Ok.
WM: Now we had bases, we had bases in Norway, we had bases in France, we had bases all over. And that was 138 squadron.
CB: Then what?
WM: Then I went. I was told I wasn’t going to get made up to another rank that I thought I was going to get and —
CB: What was that?
WM: A warrant officer then. And I didn’t get that and by that time instead of going out on class A, I took class B which was an early release for anybody who had been in the building trade and essential industries like that and that’s what I did from there, I took that and back in to the building trade.
CB: So what did you do in the building trade?
WM: Well we, we started, we revamped the family business and carried out many jobs, many contracts, but in the end we were finding out that all the spivs were getting the jobs instead of honest contractors. And then one day I decided now that enough’s enough and I said to the family, ‘Right’, the younger brothers, ‘You can take over the business. I’m going’. I didn’t know where I was going to but eventually I landed up in Africa with the African, what it was, was that the, the Mandela, Mandela, which was a trading store in Africa had started up a building section and they recruited me to go and take over a dozen sights there, you know. And that’s when we started building the schools and the hospitals and the universities and all sorts of things like that. First of all in the Nyasaland, as it was and then, and then in the Rhodesias and then that became the Federation. And then that went ahead by leaps and bounds until the UK government gave the countries away. And then eventually I came back here after fifty years.
CB: Where did you retire to?
WM: Well I retired here because I retired supposedly in 1980. What happened, my wife didn’t want me around the house so I went consulting, and I was a consultant for the Zimbabwe government, Zambian government and Namibia and Mozambique and Northern South Africa wasn’t it? [pause] Yeah.
CB: What made you choose this area?
WM: Well, what happened was that I came, I used to fly around here but also the fact was that I came back here in 1991 when one of my nieces and nephews were staying here and he’d been given, got a job as a bank manager from Africa to be here. And I rather liked it, and eventually my wife and I decided to come here, you know, and now that all my family are either in here or down in the Bournemouth area.
CB: How many children have you got?
WM: Three. Three children and then six, six grandchildren and eight great grandchildren. Yeah.
CB: What was your wife’s name?
WM: Phillis. P H I L L I S. Like that.
CB: Yeah. Ah fantastic. Yeah. And when was she born?
WM: On the 1st of February 1926.
CB: When were you married?
WM: The 3rd of January 1947.
CB: So when were you actually demobbed?
WM: The end of February 1946.
CB: Ok. You talked about a lot of interesting things and one of the questions really is, we haven’t touched on is, what were the planes you were using when you were with 138? On the agent’s side.
WM: The twin engines were Hudsons.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah. And then of course we had the single engines then.
CB: Did you, did you fly in Lysanders?
WM: Yes.
CB: You did. Right.
WM: Yes.
CB: How many people could you take in a Lysander?
WM: Well it all depended on the weight that you were carrying, you know. Yeah.
CB: But if it was just agents.
WM: Well that was, well that was, you could get three in, you know.
CB: As well as you and the pilot.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And in the Hudson?
WM: Well the Hudson mainly was, we took quite a few people on board, yes, about ten of them but we were mostly on the Hudsons taking in supplies to the Maquis.
CB: So how often did you air drop the supplies? Or how often did you land them?
WM: Well on the air drop, on the air drop was between, between fifteen and twenty, yeah, and then the land drops. The land ones, we landed with them, the special stuff. That was about five or six. Five or six.
CB: Six people.
WM: No, No.
TB: Six times.
WM: Six drops.
CB: Six drops. Yeah. Right.
WM: Yeah.
TB: How many Lysander trips did you do?
WM: Eh?
TB: How many Lysander trips did you do?
WM: About twelve altogether.
CB: Twelve Lysander trips. Ok. And Hudson? Because sometimes you didn’t find the location did you? So —
WM: No, we went, no well, we always seemed to, always seemed to be quite lucky that way. We were, you know. You know turn around and say it might have been the field next door or something like that but it wasn’t far away. We always managed to get our targets and get our stuff away.
CB: But it took exceptional navigational skill in the dark to be able to get to these places.
WM: It was.
CB: So what was the, what was the real key to that?
WM: Well they told me I had a countryman’s eyes.
CB: Because not everybody could do it.
WM: No, that’s right. As I said right at the beginning when I told you about the Clyde and the Clyde navigation.
CB: Yeah.
WM: The stars and things like that. You know, as a, as a boy I used to wander the countryside in the dark and it didn’t matter what the weather was.
CB: Right. So you had an eye for it.
WM: Oh yes. Aye.
CB: So the navigation itself. What were you flying? What height were you flying on the transit?
WM: Well the, no more than a thousand feet.
CB: Right. So that made it difficult.
WM: It did.
CB: To see laterally.
WM: That’s right.
CB: And when you got to the target then, where you were going to land, how did you do approach that? Did you do a straight in or did you fly over and around or —
WM: It all depends. If you recognised it and the code looks right you went straight in. Sometimes you buzzed it a couple of times because you weren’t sure whether it was a decoy or not. Because once or twice where the Jerries had set up decoys.
CB: So you were warned off were you?
WM: Yeah. Well it was the people on the ground you know.
CB: That’s what I meant, yeah.
WM: They always seemed to manage to do something that upset the Jerrie’s decoys. However, there were one or two chaps [pause] that didn’t.
CB: Yeah. The, so you’re coming at a thousand feet. Is this a wooded area or does it tend to be open country?
WM: Well most of them were open areas that we landed in, you know. Oh yeah.
CB: And how would they know you were coming in practical terms. At the last minute.
WM: Oh well. I would say they had a rough time of when we’d be there. That was what it was.
CB: So were they using lights to identify?
WM: Sometimes you had lights because we used to even take the lights in to them, you know. And sometimes the remote areas — sometimes they, they had little bush fires.
CB: Right.
WM: I call them bush fires. That’s from Africa, bush fires.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. So in landing they were fairly small strips.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: So how did you know, because you’ve got wind to consider?
WM: Yeah.
CB: How would you know which direction to approach for landing?
WM: Well, well you’d try and find your winds on the way through.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah.
CB: And what navigation aids were you using?
WM: Well mostly, mostly, most of it was the navigator’s computer. There was a computer on the knee. But nine —
CB: The Dawson Computer.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Nine times out of ten, nine times out of ten it was just the old fashioned hit and run, you know.
CB: You didn’t have Gee.
WM: Oh no, not at that time. We never got Gee until we were flying in, we never had Gee until we, we flew in Lancasters.
CB: Right. Ok. So when you, when you were loading up to leave in the winter what was happening? Was the aeroplane sinking in? Is that what you were talking about earlier?
WM: Yeah. That’s what you had to watch out for.
CB: What did they do to help that?
WM: Well our people were very good because you know they made sure everything was alright for us but the ones on the other side as much as possible they had firm ground for us, you know.
CB: So you land the aeroplane. You had to taxi back.
WM: Yeah.
CB: In order to take off again.
WM: That’s right.
CB: How long are you on the ground between?
WM: Well, as I say, about twenty minutes.
CB: Right.
WM: Well, some, some of these trips. Other ones were a wee bit longer you know.
CB: The Lysander could get in a pretty small spot could it?
WM: Oh yes. Yeah. As a matter of fact most of the first groups — they used to land on the roads.
CB: Oh did they?
WM: Oh yes. Aye. Used to land on the roads.
CB: Between the trees.
WM: Yeah. ‘Cause you could do that with the Lysanders. Aye.
CB: What was the loss rate? Did people tend to —?
WM: Well I’ll tell you about it if you give me a few minutes.
CB: Yeah.
WM: I’ll give you it exactly, you know.
CB: Right. I’ll stop just for a moment.
WM: Yeah. Sure.
[Recording paused]
CB: Right. We’re talking about the loss rates in 138 in the flying over Europe.
WM: 138 Squadron. The Royal Air Force Association. The Royal Air Force, I beg your pardon. Royal Air Force. At Tempsford, during the time we were there we lost nine hundred and ninety five agents.
CB: Blimey. So when. When’s that from when to?
WM: That was right through the war.
CB: Right.
TB: When you say lost do you mean —
WM: Lost.
TB: What? Captured by the Germans.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
WM: We dropped twenty nine thousand containers.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We dropped seventy, we dropped ten thousand packages.
CB: Yeah.
WM: And there was seventy — seven zero aircraft lost.
CB: On the SOE operations.
WM: Yeah. And there was three hundred air crew lost. The motto for 138 squadron is “For Freedom”. “For Freedom.”
[pause]
CB: Right.
WM: It may be that you’ll come across some day — the United States Air Force 7th Airlift Squadron came to be with us and they actually adopted our motto — “For Freedom.”
[pause]
CB: Now, what were the aircraft used? Because we’ve talked about the Hudson —
WM: Yeah.
CB: And the Lysander.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: But were you using bigger planes as well?
WM: Oh yes. Of course. We used, used Stirlings and Halifaxes.
CB: In the squadron.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: Part of the same squadron.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: So they had lots of different aeroplanes. Yeah.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah. We used Whitleys. We used everything.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We used to say that the junk that the old man didn’t want they used to pass it down to us.
TB: How did the Stirlings and Halifaxes get off then because they needed quite a long runway didn’t they?
WM: Yeah. Well that was, that was fine there at Tempsford.
CB: Tempsford had a long runway so that was ok.
TB: But the other end?
CB: It’s a standard A airfield.
TB: The other end then. How did they didn’t actually — they didn’t actually land in those?
CB: They didn’t land those.
WM: No, no .
CB: They didn’t land at the —
WM: No. They were for the heavy stuff they were dropping.
CB: Yeah. So fast forward then to going to Tuddenham.
WM: Yeah.
CB: That was because the SOE bit stopped.
WM: That’s right.
CB: What did 138 do from Tuddenham?
WM: Well we were on Bomber Command.
CB: Yes. So what type of bombing were you doing there?
WM: Well we were on a lot of the big ones that was available at that time. Yeah.
CB: Right.
WM: Including, including the various ones like [pause] Where was one? There was the Kiel one.
CB: Yeah.
WM: The Kiel. Then there was, was —
TB: Did you do Cologne?
CB: And a, so you did a lot of different raids there.
WM: Yes.
CB: What, what about D-day because you got the Legion of Honour.
WM: Yeah. On, well, apart from the Legion of Honour wasn’t only just for D-day.
CB: No.
WM: That was for all the stuff we were doing for the French, you know.
CB: Right. Ok.
WM: But during D-day time what we were doing, we were dropping H2S. It seems a funny thing for us to be doing a thing like that, but H2S and you did so many trips during that particular time they just called it one. One day. One day. They didn’t call it, didn’t call it so many trips.
CB: Right.
WM: That was one day.
CB: Right. Ok. So what were you actually doing? What were you actually doing at that time?
WM: That was, we were dropping, we were actually dropping, dropping —
CB: Window.
WM: Window.
CB: Yeah.
WM: But at the same —
CB: Not H2S.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Because H2S is the radar isn’t it?
WM: That’s right.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Well H2S is our side.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Whereas, whereas the window was against the Germans so —
CB: Yeah. Quite.
WM: But of course, on the other hand we’d divert and do a short bombing run somewhere else. Somewhere, somewhere else.
CB: Oh as well.
WM: To try and convince them that we were all over the place.
CB: Yes. Yes.
WM: So one flight might go off after twenty minutes, another one after half an hour and go and drop something, and things like that.
CB: Right. Ok.
WM: Yeah.
CB: So just on timings. When did you start with 138 squadron at Tempsford?
WM: When?
CB: When was that?
WM: When. In Tempsford? Well we went back to Tempsford at the beginning of March.
TB: What year?
WM: Yeah.
CB: Nineteen forty —?
WM: 1945.
CB: Right.
WM: Yeah.
CB: But originally when did you go to Tempsford?
WM: Oh Tempsford. Not Tempsford, no, that was Tuddenham.
CB: Yeah.
WM: That was Tuddenham.
CB: Yeah. So when did you go to Tempsford?
WM: ‘41, ‘42
CB: Ok.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Right. And from then you went to Tuddenham.
WM: Tuddenham was at the end.
CB: Right. What did you do in the middle?
WM: Tempsford.
CB: Always Tempsford.
WM: Always Tempsford.
CB: Yeah. Ok. Good.
WM: It didn’t matter what job come up, we were a Tempsford squadron. Yeah.
CB: Ok. Good. Thank you very much.
WM: And that is, that is and that was very important was that we were. Well 219 Squadron came and joined us from time to time you know but I had nothing, I had nothing to do with them, you know.
CB: The same idea. You don’t talk to each other.
WM: Much the same idea. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Right. So when you were at Tuddenham and you were in Lancasters, how many sorties? How many ops did you do?
WM: That was thirty six.
CB: That was thirty six. Ok.
WM: Yeah.
CB: So that that until the end of the war.
WM: That’s right.
CB: Ok. And how did the crew get on?
WM: Oh, we had a great crew. What we, what we did, we went back to a place called Langar.
CB: In Nottinghamshire. Yes.
WM: In Nottingham. And that’s where we, where we picked up the rest of the crew.
CB: Right.
WM: And also there was one funny one we picked up, and what he was, he was the youngster, just come right out of university and we didn’t know how many languages he could speak but he could speak just about everything on the continent. And he used to carry his black box with him wherever he went and he used to, he used to speak into that. We never knew exactly what he was doing but we had an idea that he was talking to the German control.
CB: Yeah.
WM: And everything else like that.
CB: Yeah.
WM: A very important job, but as I say he was just straight out of university.
CB: But he was completely detached from the rest of the crew.
WM: No, no, no.
CB: On the ground I meant.
WM: He was a part of the crew.
CB: No. On the ground.
WM: Oh, on the ground. On the ground, yeah. He’d his own, he had his own station on the aircraft. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Where was that?
WM: Yeah. He was behind the radio operator.
CB: Right.
WM: Because they had to work together on it.
TB: But you dropped food stuffs into Holland as well didn’t you?
WM: Oh yes. That, we were on, we were on that drop.
CB: On Manna.
WM: Oh yeah.
CB: Operation Manna. Yeah.
WM: Yeah.
CB: How many drops did you do on that?
WM: We did, at the beginning we did three in one, three a day.
CB: Right.
WM: We did that for about fifteen days.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Aye. Yeah.
CB: And what height would you be flying for that?
WM: Well some of it we were just over, some of it, at the beginning there was about a thousand feet, then it was down to six hundred, you know. But there was one, one little story which is quite, quite a good one. We, it was the first Sunday we were on the run and we were on our second, second run, anyway what happened, As we were flying up, you see what had happened the ladies, we called it ladies, we used to call it ladies they had made white crosses like that.
CB: The WAAFs.
WM: Yeah. Well we said that was.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We didn’t really know but the women used to say it was them.
CB: Yeah.
WM: And what it was that became our drop zones.
CB: Oh I see. Right.
WM: And that was inside —
CB: In Holland.
WM: Football grounds and thing like that.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: Enclosed areas. Anyway, what happened was as we were coming in and just about ready for the drop and I saw this other Lanc coming in like that.
CB: Oh.
WM: And I said, ‘You’re bringing sprogs, you know’, and we went a little bit that way and dropped because we couldn’t do anything else, we’d already gone, you know. More or less gone. Top they went and the stuff went outside and landed here.
CB: Right. On the outside of the designated area.
WM: On the railway, you know.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Yeah. Anyway, what happened was that years later we’d just opened a rugby ground in Africa and I was saying, I said, yeah, I said one of the stories I was saying, ‘And there we were, we dropped the food’. This lad came across. ‘And the stuff fell outside on the bloody railway line’, you know. And I said, ‘It looked like a whole lot of little black ants around a sugar lump, you know. In Africa that was.
CB: Yeah.
WM: All of a sudden I had a hand on my shoulder, and I looked around and somebody bigger than Tony, or he seemed bigger than Tony. I said, ‘What is it?’ He said, ‘You nearly killed me’, I said, ‘What?’, ‘You nearly killed me’. I said, ‘How?’ He said, ‘That was, I was that first lot of black ants’. And there’s another lady here, she was at church with us on Wednesday and she was five year old then and what happened was that her mother heard the bombers coming in and she, her granny said, ‘Hide under the table. Hide under the table. We’re going to get bombed. Going to get bombed’. And her mother said, ‘They’re very low’. The next thing they saw these funny things coming down because that was before the arrangements were made.
CB: Oh.
WM: And that was on to like a golf course. An open area. It wasn’t any good for landing.
CB: No.
WM: It was undulating stuff, you know. And what, what happened was that as I say she was five year old and that was the stuff landing right in front of her, you know.
CB: Amazing.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
WM: And she’s here.
CB: Is she? What an extraordinary thing.
WM: And the number, the number of people that I’ve met is terrific. Well Tony was with us.
TB: Yeah.
WM: Tony was with us. I had a photograph here. Well it’s not a photograph.
TB: Yeah.
WM: There’s a painting done by a Dutchman, you know that was bigger than that.
CB: Right.
WM: No. It’s not there now Tony. It’s gone, my daughter’s got it. Like that. A great big mural, yeah. And he had it, he gifted it that day we were up there at Lincoln and it shows you the Lancasters all coming in, dropping the food and all the rest of it, you know and he actually gave me one just bigger, a little bit bigger than that envelope there.
TB: But the Germans were allowed to eat the food as well that was meant —
WM: Oh yes.
TB: There were people.
CB: They were starving too.
WM: Oh yeah. Well that was one of the reasons why, why, well, do you know the story behind it? Right. The people in Holland, both indigenous ones and members of the German armed forces, were starving and two young Canadian officers, lieutenants, had been talking to their CO and said, ‘Hey man, can’t we do something about that? These people are starving’. And he says, ‘We’ve got plenty of food’.
CB: These were army officers.
WM: Yeah. ‘We’ve got plenty of food. Let’s give some to them’. He said, ‘How are we going to do that?’ He says, ‘Let us go in and see the German. See if he’ll allow it’. He said, ‘They might, you never know’. The two of them. No guns, no nothing like that, no knives, and they went in and they walked right into the German headquarters and demanded to see the number one. So they got in there and they put their case to them that the aircraft coming in wouldn’t drop bombs as long as you didn’t shoot at them, and we’ll drop food and you can share it. Of course he thought that was a good idea. You can share it. Anyway, that happened. So the first thing that people said was, ‘Where are we going to get containers?’ Everybody said, ‘138 squadron. They’ve got hundreds of them’, you know. And so we had. And what they, did they next thing we knew there was American, American trucks, Canadian trucks, all of that coming on to our secret ‘drome, you know, with food. And of course they were all loaded up and taken to us and put in these containers. That’s why I’m saying about contained looked like. They must have had quite a job trying to get into it of course, you know.
CB: Yeah.
WM: But that, that was the first lot of containers that were been dropped. Then they used to drop them in the reinforced mail sacks, you know. Well they were, they were run up special. People were running up up them special night and day to drop, so we could drop, so we could drop them.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: Some of them were great big things. They weren’t small, you know. Aye.
CB: So even at six hundred feet the power of the drop would have been —
WM: Oh well.
CB: Difficult for the —
WM: Well that was, that was —
CB: They were breaking.
WM: Well, that was the chance. Yeah. But most of our containers were alright because —
CB: Yeah.
WM: They were used to being dropped, you know.
CB: No. Quite.
TB: [inaudible] Lancasters were dropping the food?
CB: Eh?
TB: Were they using Lancasters?
WM: Lancasters. Yeah.
CB: Lots of squadrons did it.
WM: Oh yes. There was.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Aye.
CB: Right. What was the most memorable thing about your experience in the RAF?
[pause]
WM: It was when we were dropping the food to Holland and the response that we got. Yeah.
CB: What? What was the response?
WM: Oh terrific.
CB: In what way? How did they demonstrate it?
WM: Oh well. The crowds. Hundreds of people come out and waving to you and everything like that. And the, and the messages that was coming across, illicit radios and everything else. The airwaves were full of it. Aye.
CB: Were they?
WM: Aye. Oh yes.
CB: And then after the war did anybody go back to Holland to see? What?
WM: Oh yes. Yeah. Not only that, for quite a number of years they held food drops there, cheese drops. I was, in the beginning, alright but then I was away for fifty years. It still carried on during that time, and what used to happen was that the Dutch people came, came across on light aircraft and they brought all these little parachutes with these, you know these wee round cheeses and used to drop them at the various Royal Air Force Association homes on one special day at one special time. Yeah. And that was the food drops.
TB: ‘Cause you’re got a Dutch reward haven’t you as well? As well.
WM: Aye. I’ve got a Dutch medal. Yeah.
CB: What’s that called? What’s that called?
WM: Would you like to see it?
CB: Yeah.
[Recording pause]
CB: So we’re talking about your Dutch award for Manna. What’s that called?
[pause]
WM: I’ve got it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s it.
CB: What’s it say?
WM: Thank you. “Thank you Canada and Allied Forces. Awarded the Medal of Remembrance. Thank you Liberators. 1945. To Mr W.T. Moore.”
CB: This is a plaque on the wall.
WM: Yes.
CB: Yes. Framed.
WM: Yes.
CB: Yes. And then after the war there were regular contacts but you were abroad.
WM: Yeah.
CB: So you didn’t get involved.
WM: That’s right.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Since I’ve returned I’ve been highly involved with them.
CB: Yes. That’s really good. And this year, on the seventieth, last year just gone, the seventieth anniversary. Did you go to Holland?
WM: No. I didn’t. I didn’t manage to go.
CB: Right.
WM: But I had quite a number of Holland and Dutch people come here and saw me.
CB: Did you? Fantastic.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Can I just wind things back a little. Tell me about the crew. How, at Langar you crewed up. How did that happen?
WM: Well [laughs] it was an old RAF system.
CB: Go on.
WM: Open the hangar door, everybody goes in and they shut the hangar door and you’re told to, to crew up. In other words you have to try and find a crew. And well we were alright, Nobby and I were alright, we knew each other.
CB: That’s the pilot.
WM: That’s right.
CB: What was his name?
WM: Noble. Noble.
CB: Noble. Right.
WM: Yeah. Because I had a few pilots before that but he was the one they were going to fly Lancasters with, you know, and so then we —
CB: Who took the initiative in selecting the rest of the crew?
WM: Well, it just happened that, happened to be we that were standing around and this old man came around, you know and we said, ‘Oh he looks alright. He’s got experience. What’s your name?’ ‘Graham. Graham Wilson’, ‘What are you?’, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m a tail gunner’, We said, ‘Oh bugger off. We don’t want, you’re six feet and odd and you don’t tell us that’, you know. ‘You’re something else’, you know. Anyway, Graham Wilson became the tail gunner. He was, he was already twenty five plus twenty six.
CB: Yeah. An old boy. Yes.
WM: I know about that but —
CB: Yeah.
WM: And of course, then of course we had we had Jimmy Dagg. Jimmy Dagg from New Zealand and he became, he became our, [pause] well what he, what he actually did was he was our radar man. He was a radar man. He looked after all the radar equipment, and operating that as well. And then we had, we had radar, we had the wireless operator. We had a wireless operator and he was a signaller, Wireless Op/AG. He was a signaller as they called themselves, and he came from across the Clyde from me and his name was Dave Mitchell. [pause] Then of course the mid-upper, the mid-upper gunner, well he come from Canterbury. Peter. Peter Enstein and he and the family have a, have a hotel in Canterbury still, you know.
TB: You met up with one of them at the ITV do didn’t you?
WM: Sorry?
TB: You met up with someone at the ITV do.
WM: Yeah.
TB: Who was that?
WM: Well, that was that, that was the same ones that we met later on in life. Yes.
CB: Who was the flight engineer?
WM: The flight, the flight —
CB: Flight engineer.
WM: The flight engineer was Gus. He come from, he came from London, you know.
CB: Gus.
WM: Yeah, Gus Mitchell. Not Mitchell [pause] Oh what was his second name. Gus. Oh I’ll come back to him in a minute.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
WM: Sorry about that.
CB: Right. Now, anything else that we need to cover that comes to your mind particularly?
[pause]
WM: Well, just about [pause] Well I think we’ve been covering it in general. We’ve covered in general, you know.
CB: Yes.
WM: We haven’t gone into designated drops and designated flights and —
CB: Ok.
WM: Where people got shot up and things like that.
CB: Yeah. Well that’s —
WM: I haven’t done that.
CB: No. Can you do that?
WM: I haven’t done that on purpose.
CB: Oh right. Ok.
WM: I haven’t done that on purpose.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We were quite lucky. We were quite lucky. We went in, in to Bomber Command as a crew and we come out as a crew. We were lucky.
CB: Yeah.
WM: We, the pilots I had earlier on for the small and light aircraft and things like that the most memorable one to me was this chap as I say when I started off he was a, he was a pilot officer, you know, and he finished up as the, as the wing commander. And with that he [pause] he actually, well to me he was a person who deserved everything he ever got because he was, he was a first class team leader, he was a first class gentleman. If he told you a thing then he meant it, he didn’t elaborate on it, you know. And his name was Rob Murray. Of course he had various, various high decorations during his time.
CB: Yeah. Such as?
WM: Well he got all the high ones.
CB: DSO, DFC.
WM: That’s right.
CB: And bars?
WM: Well he did. He did, yes.
CB: So, when you were on operations, what was the most challenging thing on that? So you’re on the Lancaster —
WM: Well on a Lancaster the main challenging thing was to watch out for night fighters.
CB: Right.
WM: You know, by that time your navigational aids were good but the worst thing about it was the German night fighters. Because there were so many young crews, as I call them, shot down before they even left the UK. The likes of chaps just about ready to shove off the cliffs there, you know, they got shot down, you know.
CB: The night fighters were in that close were they? On the way to meet you.
WM: Oh yes. Now then and also at night time on the return trips. That was also the night fighters rejoice.
CB: Right.
WM: Oh yes. You don’t hear a lot about that but there was a lot of chaps were actually shot down here.
CB: Yeah.
WM: On the return.
CB: Yeah.
WM: On the return journey.
CB: And what about the British night fighters that were counteracting those?
WM: Oh well that was up to my Jimmy Dagg and our boffin boy to do that. To try and, try and keep our special signals going. Aye.
CB: So Jimmy Dagg was, where was he operating? Behind the signaller.
WM: Yeah. That’s right.
CB: And who was your bomb aimer?
WM: I did the bomb aimer as well as that because I did, I did the navigating and the bomb aimer.
CB: Oh did you? Right.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Ok. Right. And so when you were on the sorties in the night obviously.
WM: Yeah.
CB: In the squadron. Then what, you were in a stream.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Did you ever see other aircraft while you were there?
WM: Oh yes, yes. Oh yes, we did.
CB: How close did any of them get?
WM: Well I think sometimes within a hundred metres. And other than that you had to watch out for chaps who were either too low or too high. Or too quick on the bomb release. Yeah.
CB: Any coming down from above you?
WM: Oh yes. But you know the thing is that if you went straight through on the guidelines of what you were told to do you were much safer than if you tried to do something different.
CB: Right.
WM: Aye.
CB: So because you’ve got the extra person on board then you’re doing the bomb aiming as well as the navigation.
WM: That’s right. That’s right.
CB: So the practicality is on the run in. How far out from the target are you doing straight and level.
WM: Well a lot of that depended on the territory and the terrain and how it was at night time you know. But generally, generally in later days when the pathfinders were going it was twenty, thirty miles and more.
CB: And you are, you are not. You are releasing the bombs as the bomb aimer.
WM: Yeah.
CB: But you’re not controlling the aircraft. Is that right?
WM: No. Well you did control the aircraft.
CB: Oh.
WM: Because you were controlling the pilot.
CB: That’s what I meant, you’re telling the pilot.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: Rather than having the remote.
WM: Yeah. Oh yes.
CB: Yourself.
WM: Oh yeah. The thing is as I often joke about coming out of the road here at night time I say to people, ‘Left. Left. Left. Left. Right.’
CB: Yes.
WM: You know.
CB: And then you had to do the photoflash afterwards. So how soon would that be after you’d released?
WM: Well that. All that, that depended on how the target was.
CB: Right.
WM: But what you did was you counted in. You say each, each lot of bombs were [pause] were going to go off at different heights because they were different types of bomb types you were going. It wasn’t just all the same type
CB: Ok. So what were the types?
WM: Well you had everything from the small incendiaries, well the nuisance bombs, you know.
CB: Yeah.
WM: The big incendiaries that used to drop and probably set two or three buildings going you know.
CB: Right. So your load would be a mixture of high explosive.
WM: That’s right.
CB: And incendiaries.
WM: Normally was.
CB: So the photoflash was to illuminate the target.
WM: Oh to try and, yeah.
CB: And when did the camera fire. How did that happen?
WM: Well that was timed, that, we didn’t —
CB: Automatic.
WM: We didn’t actually do the timing.
CB: Right.
WM: That was actually arranged ahead of time you know.
CB: So if you weren’t at the right height for the original calculation.
WM: Yeah.
CB: What happened?
WM: Well then, then of course they could give you, could give you, you know say whether you were actually within that area or not, you know.
CB: Yes.
WM: Oh yes.
CB: Ok.
WM: A lot of people turn around say now that it was scattered and all the rest of it but a lot of them didn’t realise that you might have had a change of wind. The wind might have went up from fifty or sixty knots to about a hundred knots.
CB: Right. And how did you detect that change?
WM: Well, well what you did was you were finding your winds all the time and that. You had to try and allow for that you know.
CB: But you’re not using a sextant.
WM: That was the old days.
TB: Looking out the window.
CB: So you’re using Gee.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Are you? And GH.
WM: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: And GH?
WM: And of course. Yeah. And otherwise H2S, you know.
TB: H2S. Yeah. Just a quick one —
WM: Once you, once you started on H2S you know it was a different story entirely.
CB: So what could you see with H2S?
WM: Well if you had water around you it was excellent. If you were going up alongside a canal you had excellent because the more water you had around you the better it was.
CB: The contrast.
WM: Yeah.
CB: So how did you use H2S? For navigation? Or could you use it for the actual bombing?
WM: Well we could use it, could use it for navigation. You could use it for bombing as well. Oh yes.
CB: But what was the downside of using H2S?
TB: The tracking.
WM: [laughs] You should know what that was.
TB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: That was as bad as the night fighter.
TB: Yeah. Yes.
CB: So the practicality of it is that you’d only switch it on occasionally.
WM: Well the trouble was the better you were on the other instruments, the better your crew were on the other instruments, the safer you were.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Once you got the run ups and different things like that you then you were taking your chances.
CB: Yeah. To what extent were you aware of the German system of upward firing guns in night fighters?
WM: Well the thing is, the thing is this. With that —
CB: The Schrage music.
WM: It was something, it was something your rear gunner was dreading because after a certain angle he’d no control over that at all but if he, if he was on his, on his proper lateral defences for the aircraft, fine . Now, it’s, you couldn’t turn, you couldn’t turn around, turn around and say that the rear gunner missed something you know because it was a big bit of sky you know.
CB: How many times did you get fired on from a fighter?
WM: Very seldom. I dare say we actually got fired directly on with the other ones but we were aware of them, you know.
CB: And did you do many corkscrews?
WM: Oh yes, quite a few. Quite a few of them. Yeah. That that was a lot of the targets like Kiel and places like that that was when you did a lot of corkscrews was on that.
CB: Yeah. And they were using box flak were they?
WM: Yeah. Well you see, along, along the canals and that you had your pockets because, you know, the canal was where there had been several good attempts or big attempts at different things. Like one night we went out on the Friday nights and we bombed this battleship, you know and we actually put it on its side, you know. And the Sunday night we were called up again and somebody said, ‘you’ve got to go and so and so’. And a voice chipped up and said, ‘Hey are you wanting us to right and put it back up the way it was before?’ [laughs] That was a fact, that’s what he said. That was actually recorded as being recorded. [laughs]
CB: So when you were bombing shipping what bombs were you using?
WM: You had a medium height bomb you know but we weren’t in for the shipping direct we weren’t in a lot of these special ones.
CB: Right.
WM: But dropping bombs. Dropping bombs in the submarine pens, nowwe had the big ones for them as well.
CB: You did carry the big ones.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
WM: But you see the thing is this. We had a modern, we had a modern Lancaster, the most up to date one, yeah, And the thing about them was, was that you were, you were dropping. Later on what we were doing although we thought we were dropping on submarine pens, it wasn’t. We were dropping them because the V2s and the V2s were in there and at the beginning we didn’t even know that there was V2s and V1s, we just thought they were submarine pens because the amount of damage that the government believed was going to come on the London area was going to be horrendous and there could have been, you know. It was bad enough the likes of people down this area knew about the V2s and V1s and things like that.
CB: Yeah. Sure.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Right. Do you want to stop there for a mo?
TB: How did they discover, the Germans discover —
[Recording paused]
CB: What was the role, the difference between you, sorry, the wireless operator and Jimmy Dagg. So Jimmy Dagg —
WM: Well the wireless operator had, as you say wireless.
CB: Yeah.
WM: He had his official work to do.
CB: Yeah. Signaller.
WM: Yes.
CB: Right.
WM: When Jimmy was doing this other thing you had, you had lots of stuff that was introduced that Jimmy used to use, you know. A lot of it, we never touched it, we never touched it, you know. Same as the, same as the youngster with his black box, we never saw what was inside that.
CB: So, Ok. Who was the youngster then?
WM: Eh?
CB: Who was the youngster?
WM: Well, he was young Weir.
CB: Oh he was young Weir was he?
WM: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right.
WM: But we never, well maybe a bit [laughs] [coughs] we didn’t, we didn’t treat him as a kid, you know, but we did actually look after him, you know, because by the time we were doing that we were, you know, we had quite a few things under our belts sort of thing, you know. Yeah.
CB: So he only came in later did he?
WM: That’s right.
CB: Right. Ok.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Where did you meet your wife and when?
WM: Oh I met my wife in 1944 in Dunoon, in Scotland.
TB: Up there.
WM: There it is. There. Up there.
TB: Yeah.
WM: That’s the picture up there.
CB: Yeah.
WM: But what it was, was we got, we got some leave and I managed to persuade the old man to give us a few days extra. And I said, ‘It takes us two days to get there and two days to get back again, you know’. And he said, ‘Ok’. So we got about ten, got about ten days and that, and that was the July of ‘44. As I say we thought we deserved a, we deserved a bit of a rest after what we’d been doing for D-day and all the rest of it, you know.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
WM: Yeah.
CB: And how many other bombers did you see blow up?
WM: Quite a few actually but you were never sure whether it was your ones or the enemy that had been got at, you know.
CB: How do you mean your ones?
WM: I mean, I mean our aircraft. Some other Lancasters.
CB: Which, whether it was a German plane that blew up.
WM: Yeah.
CB: Or a British one.
WM: That’s right.
CB: Ok.
WM: Sometimes they went, they went puff too. Yeah. But no, no, it was hard to say.
CB: And your rear, Graham Wilson in the back.
WM: Yeah.
CB: At six feet he was squashed in. Did you have the later .5 machine guns in the rear turret?
WM: Yeah. Yeah. We had that. I’ll tell you what we did, I never mentioned this with —
CB: Previously.
WM: At one time from [pause] this was one of the sort of trips that we did from [pause] from Tuddenham. We, we went up to Abbotsinch and we got new engines put in, you know, and , well they turned around and said these ones were getting a bit old and so they were but we got these new engines put in.
CB: More powerful.
WM: Powerful. We could fly faster, fly further, fly higher, all the rest of it. Anyway, there was only three. So anyway we went up there and we got up to Abbotsinch which is now Glasgow airport, you know. I knew it as Abbotsinch as a kid, you know. Anyway, we left that aircraft. We had taken our own ground crew with us.
CB: Oh.
WM: We were told to do that, they also got leave, and we went home and all the rest of it. We didn’t scatter because everybody came and stayed with my mother, you know. Anyway, we got back and they had these new engines and the ground crew were back. They also had a couple of Scotsmen in the ground crew and we had to test these new engines and fly them around and give a report. So we used to take the chiefy, if you know what a chiefy is. Do you know what a chiefy is?
CB: Yeah. The chief technician. Yeah.
WM: No, no.
CB: The ground crew chief.
WM: No.
CB: Oh. Which one?
WM: No. A chiefy was a flight sergeant.
CB: Oh.
WM: [laughs] That is where it came from.
CB: Yes.
WM: The equivalent from the, from the Navy.
CB: Right.
WM: Was the chiefy.
CB: Right.
WM: And the flight sergeant became a chiefy. But anyway their chiefy came along and we got these engines back and had to run them up, so we did that and we had a couple of days flying around and one night in the, in the mess and the naval boys were shooting a line about HMS Forth and the submarines in the Holy Loch and they said that nobody could get near them, you know. Well, I’ll tell you what, I just, I never said a word and I’d told the crew already you don’t mention anything about. They might have guessed my accent a bit but, you know. Anyway, so anyway what we did we went into Paisley and we got a whole lot, a whole lot of little bags of lime, you know, and we loaded it up in the Lancaster and we took off. So, we had, we had permission to fly anywhere we wanted as long as it wasn’t in one of these defensive barrages, you know, whatever they call them. Anyway, we decided that we’d go and see The Forth. So we got in, we revved her up, we took off, we went across the Clyde to Erskine. We went up in to Loch Lomond and flew up Loch Lomond and flying low, used to flying low, then we jumped. We jumped over the section where the Norsemen used to draw their boats across Loch Lomond to Loch Long. And we jumped across there, down Loch Long, moved over into Loch Eck, down Loch Eck, Glen Massan and then we just opened up the throttle. Full throttle right down the Holy Loch and dropped all this stuff on HMS Forth and all the submarines and got the hell out of it, you know. Anyway, we got, we did, we went away down the Isle of Arran and all the way around about, the bottom of the Clyde, you know, and back up again about an hour later, you know. So, eventually we landed and this lieutenant commander sent for us, and we paraded in front of him, all scraggly buggers, you know. None of us had proper uniform on, we’d just what we used to use around the aircraft you know. Anyway, he says, ‘You’re all on a charge’. ‘Why sir?’, ‘Well it’s my Lancaster that did this, AC-Charlie, and I won’t have it’. I said, ‘What do you mean your Lancaster, sir?’ He said, ‘Well they’re based here and they’re my Lancasters. I’m in trouble for them’. I said, ‘Oh. Why’s that?’, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You made a mess of the Forth’. ‘Don’t you remember the other night in the mess? All these naval boys were saying it was impossible, you know’. ‘Well. Dismissed. We’ll see you later when you come back from your next job’. So we went up and went up north and we loaded up with bombs and eventually the idea was to go up into Leningrad, you know, so called Leningrad then, you know and the siege. A lot of people thought the siege was just like across the road there you know but it wasn’t, it was about forty or fifty miles away, you know, but at the same time old Jerry had it all wrapped up, you know. But the Russians had their great bunkers there that you could land a Lancaster on. Well they had, they used to say, ‘Watch the bloody holes in the runway’. But they used to fill them in all the time. Anyway we landed there, got under this big, what was supposed to be bomb proof shelters, you know. Well we knew what we were doing the other side but anyway that was it. So we stayed there until the wind changed because we couldn’t have the wind that we came in on otherwise we’d be flying over the Jerries’ lines immediately, you know, at low level. So we waited until the wind changed, right, Gulf of Finland, away, good.Back up were Russian bombs then, Back right down we dropped the Russian bombs. Now this was all his majesty’s ideas and I don’t mean the King either. This was Winston Churchill’s ideas to show what, what we could do, you know. Anyway, we went back to Lossiemouth and back again and back again and we were lucky, you know. We had a few chips and things like that. Anyway, the last time we got to Lossiemouth they said. ‘No. It’s finished. You did enough’. ‘Oh thank you very much. Where do we go now?’, ‘Go back to Abbotsinch.’ Back to Abbotsinch and all the boffins came up from the, from a factory which is, well the factory’s about twenty minutes in a motor car, you know. About five minutes in a aeroplane, you know.
CB: Yeah.
WM: But that’s where they used to make these engines, you know. Anyway, all the boffins were there. Took the, took the engines off, took them away again and then we went up to see the old man as we call a lieutenant commander. So we got up there and I knocks on the door. No lieutenant commander, full commander. And I said to the boys, I said, ‘Oh this is alright. He’s been posted somewhere’, you know. He wasn’t posted somewhere, he’d been promoted to full commander which is just under a captain in the Navy . Yeah. So I saw his secretary, a very nice young lady, I got on well with her, you know. Anyway, we said to her, ‘When can we see the boss?’ Well, she said, ‘I’ll make an appointment for you’,’ Alright’. The next morning appointment everybody had their best blues on, shining, buttons polished, boots polished. She led us in. He was out in his other office. ‘Come in. [pause] Morning gentleman. Why are you here?’ I said, ‘Beg your pardon sir. You’re the one who told us to come back here when we come back and you would sentence us to that escapade that we had’. ‘Don’t know anything about it’. I said, ‘But —‘, ‘I don’t know anything about it’. He said, ‘Good trips boys?’ ‘Yes’, ‘And they had theirs?’,’ Yes’. ‘My Lancasters’. So there it was. Nothing happened about it.
CB: That was lucky. Yeah.
WM: But the, there was a great friend of mine. He’d got a book, another book I think over there somewhere. Anyway, he’s written it. Peter. Peter Lovatt, you know.
TB: Oh that’s the bloke you met at the what’s name isn’t it?
WM: Sorry?
TB: That’s the one you met at —
WM: Oh right
CB: Is it there Tony?
TB: Yeah.
WM: Eh?
TB: Yeah.
WM: One on submarines, and one on this, and one on that.
CB: Yes. Lots of captains on HMS Forth.
WM: That’s right.
CB: Yes.
WM: And [pause] and of course as I say what happened was that I lost touch. And you know the Millies? [pause] Well the Millies are sponsored by the ITV and The Sun newspaper and one of the first ones that was done I was asked to go on it. Anyway, I’d been, I’d been speaking to a young lady at the Bomber Command luncheon on the Sunday.
CB: Yes.
WM: And this thing was going to happen about ten days later, you know. But at that time I didn’t know. So, anyway, what happened was that I couldn’t, I couldn’t find him anywhere. I’d written to him, we’d lost touch and that was it, you know. Anyway, I even got a letter from him. It took fourteen years to come to me, I got it though. Fourteen years to come to me. Anyway, I tried to find him, couldn’t find him. Anyway, on the, on the Saturday [pause] no, I’ll tell you a sad thing that happened was on the Sunday I’d been at the Bomber Command luncheon and my wife was dead and my children said, ‘No dad. You must go and we’ll see to everything at the moment.’ So, anyway on the Friday we had the service and on the Saturday morning my daughter got a phone call saying that I was wanted for something special for the Millies. We’d never heard about the Millies. Anyway, she got to know a bit more than I did and then apparently this lady went to work to try and find Peter and she found his son playing golf and then that led to them finding Peter. And then of course on the Wednesday I got a car that came here for me. I was warned about this. First of all they said black tie and wearing black tie is fine. The next one was lounge suit, yeah, that’s fine. Next one was blazers and badges, that’s fine, you know.Anyway, what did happen was that I took the whole lot and I got dressed here in the dickie suit. All the way down to London, just myself in this green tomato carriage. The next thing I knew we stopped at this hotel. ‘No. Keep in where you are’. ‘Where are we going now?’ ‘Just you wait and see. I’ve got my orders not to lose you’. I said, ‘Oh. Thank you’. So they took us to Number 10. So that was fine. So we had a photographic session and shaking hands and all this. And then we got taken back to the hotel. We went to the Dorchester first and we, we had drinks there and then they said, ‘Time up. Everybody in’. And we had buses by this time, great big buses, you know, and the driver had already told us that, ‘You sit in the place where you are because I’ve got you on camera and you don’t dare go and move. Or another bus’. Anyway, we got back to the hotel and somebody says, ‘How about dinner?’ ‘No. You’ll get dinner where we’re going’. ‘Where are we going?’ ‘We’ll take you there’. So we don’t know where we’re going. So all done up in dickie suits and medals and this, that and the next thing. And we get there and we’re at the War Museum and it’s all lined up like Hollywood. All these searing lights and all this thing and we get escorted up. Once again, in the bus they said, ‘Have you got your number?’ The bloke next to me, he keep talking away to me and he turned out to be with, he was the boss of the Royal Navy you know. And he was down in the dumps because they’d just took his aeroplanes away that day, you know. He wasn’t very happy with them, you know. On the other side of me was a young pilot officer who’d a brand new DFC up here, you know. Anyway, that was fine. Anyway, we got there and they said, ‘Right. As you come up if you get a green ticket you go to the right. You get a red ticket you go to the left.’ Alright. I got a red ticket. I’m going this way and all these film stars and all these other high [unclear] and had a great run ‘cause you meet everybody because that’s the idea of the two lots. Then all of a sudden somebody shouts out. ‘Ready. The doors will be open in five minutes ladies and gentlemen. And after you get in through the doors there’s toilets on the right and the left that you may use’. [laughs] Anyway, we get there and then of course they tell us what table we’re at. Then I find out that I’m with another five Bomber Command boys. Bomber Command. Five. Five and one is six. Something wrong. Anyway, we go back. We go, we sit down and we get our nibbles and this, that and the next thing and that’s the beginning of a good evening, you know. Plenty of wine coming around you know. Very nice. Good stuff. Then the next thing I noticed that there were people going up to the platform. So this man went up and this lady went up and this man went up and eventually, ‘Bomber Command. Table Thirteen.’ We go up. There’s still six. Anyway, we get up there and as we get up one of the chaps, about his size, what does he do? He falls down through the trapdoor. Honestly all you could see was he was down to about my size. [laughs] So, anyway, what happens then is that we’re beginning to get the idea there’s presentations going on. So we got this presentation, a beautiful glass ornament we’ll call it, a beautiful thing. We’ve got it. Anyway, what happened, we got that and everybody else had moved away when they got theirs and this presenter, that fella, same height as me, white hair and this young blonde girl. She was here and he was there and wouldn’t they let me move. No. Then the next thing was the roll of the drums. ‘Brrmbrrrm brummmm brmmm’. What happens?
TB: Peter comes in.
WM: They have it like that programme, “Your Life.” Eventually what happens, I get to see something. I thought to myself it can’t bloody well be. There’s Peter Lovatt there and of course they said to me, ‘What would you like to do tonight?’ I said, ‘I don’t know but I’m beginning to think my imaginations’, you know. Anyway, apparently my accent was broader than it should be. Anyway, what happened, It was Peter. They’d found him and they had him dickied up and they had him there after all these years. Yeah.
TB: [inaudible]
CB: Extraordinary.
TB: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: We’re restarting. So what you’ve got is a plate here.
WM: Right.
CB: Yeah.
WM: Now —
CB: So they presented to you.
WM: Now, when we went in to the, when we went in there, on the table, there were lovely sets of plates were all on the table and of course everyone was admiring them and reading them. And then of course when we came back from being on the platform they had disappeared, you know. But unbeknown to us they’d made up bags. Extremely heavy, strong, beautiful carved out, set out plastic bags. Now in the audience was my friend. Who?
CB: This is your pilot?
WM: Camilla.
CB: Oh Camilla.
WM: Camilla and her husband.
CB: Right.
WM: So, anyway, what happened during the time we were going around and they went outside and then everybody came back inside after the toilet, you know. What happened then was that we were at the tables and the VIPs came around to greet us although everybody told us we were the VIPs and not the ones coming to greet us. So, anyway, the Prince of Wales and his good lady was coming around and they got to me and I was told that, you know, we could talk to them. They’re here, we could talk to them. You’re the VIPs and you can tell them any stories you like so long as you don’t go on too long, you know. Maybe they knew me. Anyway, what happened, when they came to me I said, ‘Good evening ma’am. Good evening sir. Thank you very much for coming tonight. We’re very happy to see you here’. I said, ‘By the way can I tell you a little story about your granny’. That’s to him. And Camilla takes out a wee book, I’ve got one of them here, yeah, h, a little book like that, you know, and her pen. I said, ‘This is a story’, I said, ‘In 1960 I built a race course for your granny and I was given ten days to build it while she went on a cruise up and down Lake Nyassa in Africa’, and of course then the ears were going but I hurried the story up. So, anyway, anyway Camilla’s busy writing and she says, ‘This is going to be our story at Christmas’. Christmas is only a few days away, you know. ‘This is going to be our story. Nobody knows that one’, you know. So, anyway she writes down all this stuff about what I told her and all the rest of it, you know. And I said, ‘I hope you can read that’, and she said, ‘Yes. I better’. I says, ‘Ok’. And Charles is watching her. Anyway, the next thing that happens, the next thing that happens is he says, ‘Is that all?’ I says, ‘Aye. I can tell you a lot of stories about your mum if you like too’, you know. He says, ‘Another time’, he says. I said, ‘Alright, we’ll make it another time’, [laughs]. Anyway, I’ve met them several times since. Anyway, what did happen the people on the platform turned about to these ones? Yeah. Now, he’s a secretary for Bomber Command and has been for generations. There’s myself there and this was my nominated girlfriend for the evening. Well the thing is this, she’s married now and got a baby now. [laughs] And this is the one that fell down the hole. Well there you are.
CB: Fantastic.
WM: This is us shaking hands on the — yeah. That’s my friend Peter Lovatt.
CB: Yeah.
TB: Have you heard from him since? Have you heard from him since?
WM: Oh yes. Aye.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Moore. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-18
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AMooreWT160318
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:45:48 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Moore joined the Royal Air Force after spending time in the Air Defence Cadet Corps, qualifying as an observer. He tells of his family history in wartime and his transatlantic trip, landing in New York before heading to Canada for his training. He went to 138 Squadron and tells of his time flying Lysanders from RAF Tempsford, taking members of Special Operations Executive over the France and also of dropping supplies to the Resistance. He also tells that on one of these operations, his aircraft had to be helped by local villagers to get airborne again. As well as Lysanders, William flew in Hudsons, Stirlings, Halifaxes and Lancasters in Bomber Command. Bill tells about 138 Squadrons part in Operation Manna - he received the Legion of Honour from France and also a Dutch Medal of Commendation. He also tells of his time after the war when he returned to the building trade working in Rhodesia and Zambia.<br /><br /><span data-contrast="none" xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB" class="TextRun SCXW153699638 BCX0"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW153699638 BCX0">Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed.</span></span>
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
England--Scarborough
Canada
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
France
France--Istres
Netherlands
Zimbabwe
Zambia
138 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
displaced person
Gee
H2S
Halifax
Hudson
Lancaster
Lysander
observer
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Benson
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Tempsford
RAF Tuddenham
Resistance
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/176/8779/PFrostB1501.1.jpg
421cb1de4770c3cda2c64d9ccdc2e35c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Frost, Bob
R Frost
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Frost, B
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-07
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. Two oral history interviews with Robert Frost (1383682 Royal Air Force), and two photographs. Sergeant Bob frost flew as a rear gunner with 150 Squadron from RAF Snaith. Shot down on an operation to Essen, he was helped by the Resistance and evaded through the Netherlands and France to Spain. The story of his evasion is available in video form.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Bob Frost and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bob Frost. Two
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Frost flew on a night operation on 16/17 September 1942 as a rear gunner on Wellington BJ877, 150 Squadron, from RAF Snaith. Before reaching the target at Essen, the aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and the port engine was damaged. He describes how, during the flight home, the aircraft was completely disabled and all the crew bailed out, landing in Belgium. He narrates the experience of being helped by the resistance, from his first encounter with a Flemish family through to Gibraltar, via Kapellen bij Glabbeeck, Tillemont, Brussels, Paris, St Jean De Luz, San Sebastián, and Madrid. He praises the resistance for the support they gave him.
<p>This content is available as embedded video:</p>
<p><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LWv-48NHlUM?rel=0&showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></p>
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Spain
Belgium--Brussels
France--Saint-Jean-de-Luz
Gibraltar
Germany--Essen
Spain--Madrid
Spain--San Sebastián
France--Paris
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-09-16
1942-09-17
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Heather Hughes
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:17:55 video recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFrostB1501
150 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
crash
evading
RAF Snaith
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/261/Memoro 725.2.mp3
0abeb54d0bebe4c921bb8ba07848fd67
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CG: Dunque eeh il mio ricordo va un po’ indietro all’epoca della guerra quando vicino al mio caseggiato c’era quel cerchio bianco con la R in mezzo che voleva dire ‘rifugio’. Non erano rifugi, erano, era un cortile, un corridoio di una cantina adibita a rifugio con delle panche dove purtroppo quasi tutte le sere quando suonava la guerra, l’allarme eh andavamo in cantina. Io ero piccolina e quella cantina c’erano delle scene: c’era una signora, mi ricordo, che era terrorizzata, si metteva due mani nelle orecchie così e fin quando non era finito l’allarme bisognava dirle ‘Guardi che è ora di andare sopra’ perché lei non si muoveva più. C’era l’altro terrorizzato in altro modo, prendeva il rosario, continuava a dire il rosario. Mia mamma invece raccoglieva noi piccolini in un angolino al fondo della cantina e ci raccontava le favole tanto per distrarci un pochino. Però queste favole non sempre riuscivano a distrarci perché noi abitavamo vicino alla Superga (che poi è diventata Pirelli) e tutte le sere c’erano le bombe, c’erano boati proprio, si sentivano gli apparecchi arrivare, bom bom quel suono cupo e poi le bombe. E quando le bombe erano più vicine le storie di mia mamma non bastavano più, allora mia mamma aveva escogitato un'altra cosa, diceva ‘Adesso basta storie bambine, domani dovete andare a scuola: studiamo le tabelline’ e ci impegnava facendoci dire a tutti le tabelline in continuazione. Però anche le tabelline per me non bastavano, ero terrorizzata per un fatto, noi abitavamo al primo piano, di fianco a noi c’era un signore lui era milanese però era venuto ad abitare a Torino perché sua figlia lavorava anche lei alla Superga dove lavorava mio papà, erano compagni di lavoro. E questo signore che aveva pressappoco l’età di mio padre, di mio nonno scusate, eeeh io lo amavo in un modo infinito anche perché all’epoca della guerra mio nonno non abitava a Torino e le possibilità di andarlo a trovare erano poche, i mezzi di trasporto erano pochi e allora per me era come, lui mi voleva un bene dell’anima e io lo ricambiavo in questo modo. Però cosa succedeva, che in mezzo a tutte ste bombe, tutta sta paura, questo signore era tranquillamente nel suo letto che dormiva perché non è mai voluto alzarsi in tempo di guerra. Mio papà gli diceva ‘Signor (beh diciamo signor G. per non fare il nome) eeh venga in cantina’ anche alla figlia gli diceva ‘Cerchi di convincerlo mio papà ad andare in cantina’. E lui serio serio ha sempre detto queste parole ‘Senti Andrea, tu, tua moglie, tua figlia, la Carletta (che sarei io) la vedete la fine della guerra, io non la vedo, lasciatemi dormire’ e non si è mai alzato. Io tutto il periodo che stava in cantina tremavo dicevo ‘Ah nonno G, nonno G, nonno sopra’. Come arrivavo sopra al mattino, come mi svegliavo prima di andare a scuola andavo a bussare alla porta lo abbracciavo, lo baciavo, ah c’era ancora anche stamattina c’è ancora. E questo è andato avanti per tutto il periodo della nostra guerra. Quando il 26 di aprile sono finite tutte tutte le cose che son finite, che si credeva fossero finite ma, a Madonna di Campagna ial 26 aprile si combatteva ancora, eeeh questo signr Gibelli lui aveva l’abitudine di andarsi a fare la passeggiata, era un pensionato, andava a fare la passeggiata. Il 26 di aprile a Madonna di Campagna dove c’era la Pirelli allora, praticamente la Pirelli era quasi al limite di Torino, c’era la Strada delle Campagne, la chiamavano così perché era proprio in campagna dall’altro lato c’era un convento, c’erano delle casette e poi incominciava la boscaglia che degradava verso la Stura. In questa boscaglia si erano piazzati i tedeschi con le mitragliatrici che cercavano di di di far andar via, di vincere sti operai per poter impossessarsi della fabbrica. Gli operai, aiutati dai partigiani che erano scesi dalla Val di Lanza armati, erano tutti sul tetto, la Superga allora era due piani con un tetto piano e un parapetto che sembrava quasi un balcone, erano piazzati dietro questo parapetto e per tutta la giornata del 26 e c’è stata una schermaglia tra gli operai della Pirelli, della allora Superga e questi tedeschi che erano nella boscaglia. Questo signore che non sapeva niente poverino piglia su e va a farsi la passeggiata in Strada delle Campagne il 27 era tutto finito, ma lui l’hanno mitragliato il 26. Questo è il ricordo che ho.
Unknown interviewer: Il ricordo che ha.
CG: Il ricordo più brutto che ho della mia vita è questo, che lui aveva detto ‘Io la guerra non la vedo finita e non l’ha vista finita’. Nonno Gibelli se n’è andato il 26 di aprile, di aprile, il 27 tutti festeggiavano la, la liberazione praticamente ma nel nostro borgo piangevamo tutti un caro amico che non c’era più.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Carla Griva
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Carla Griva (b. 1935) describes different attitudes and various coping strategies of people inside a shelter in Turin: reciting the rosary, putting their hands over their ears to avoid listening, storytelling, and asking children to practice multiplication tables. Remembers an old man who continued sleeping in his own bed in spite of bombing and gives an account of how he was accidentally killed in the last days of war.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Luca Novarino
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#725
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Turin
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:05:46 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
coping mechanism
faith
home front
Resistance
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/447/7910/PIntropidoC1701.1.jpg
064673f6b5c2f1b27d262972362b71cc
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/447/7910/AIntropidoC170125.2.mp3
4d7923b6860d9fa6fa9bcdb9fda8d576
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Intropido, Carluccio
Carluccio Intropido
Carlo Intropido
C Intropido
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Carluccio Intropido, who remembers his wartime experiences in Pavia.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Intropido, C
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Carlo vuole raccontarci la sua infanzia, gli avvenimenti.
CI: Volentieri, volentieri, son cose che mi sono capitate nella mia vita per cui non c’è niente da nascondere. Sono Carlo Intropido, sono nato da una famiglia contadina in un periodo di pace appena dopo i tre giorni della merla, nel freddo inverno del 1931 ed è per quello che son sempre pien di freddo. Il destino ha voluto di restare orfano prima di padre poi di madre, all’età di 10 e 11 anni. Sono stato parcheggiato in un istituto, vero? Molto accogliente, lì si lavorava, si studiava, e si imparava un’arte: era il 1941, proprio all’inizio della seconda guerra mondiale. I tempi erano quello che erano, si soffriva anche un po’ di fame, il cibo mancava però il lavoro c’era, e io mi sono sempre dato da fare, ho imparato l’arte del fare il falegname. E la vita d’istituto era tranquilla: di giorno si studiava, si lavorava, alla domenica si andava a far la gitarella. Quel giorno avevamo deciso di fare quattro salti da Pavia a Certosa, la famosa Certosa di Pavia, un gruppetto, una ventina di ragazzi, quasi tutti coetanei, avevamo su la nostra bella divisa, pantaloncini corti e maglione azzurro. Ci siamo incamminati, giunti all’inizio di via Brambilla, che è la strada che porta da Pavia a Milano, vero? Abbiamo notato quattro caccia americani, inglesi, ma oramai noi eravamo abituati perché tutti i giorni è la stessa cosa, tutti i giorni c’era una confusione di aerei, pochi o tanti, che sorvolavano Pavia e andavano a bombardare Milano, quindi per noi è una cosa quasi normale. Purtroppo, improvvisamente quello di testa, vero? Ha virato a sinistra, è sceso giù in picchiata, gli altri lo han seguito. Son passate proprio sopra di noi vero? E hanno sganciato le bombe, nel frattempo noi impauriti ci siamo scaraventati giù per la scarpata tra la strada e la ferrovia, proprio dove le bombe son cadute. Io personalmente ho visto le bombe a pochi metri dalla testa che scendevano e andavano a colpire la ferrovia, è stato un po’ di panico. Passati i primi, i primi quattro passaggi vero? Ci siamo quasi tutti immedesimati, abbiamo attraversato la strada, dall’altra parte della strada c’è il Navigliaccio, un corso d’acqua che da Milano arriva verso Pavia e va a finire nel Naviglio vero? Lì abbiamo traversato e non sappiamo come perché è, era un ponticello che attraversava il fiume, fiumicello a trasporto di un fosso, è una condotta d’acqua larga circa un metro e noi l’abbiamo attraversato tutti senza paura. Forse è la paura che c’ha c’ha dato il coraggio di fare questa azione. Ci siam ritrovati tutti insieme, dall’altra parte e abbiam deciso di proseguire la nostra, la nostra gitarella. Siamo andati oltre il, l’ospedale policlinico San Matteo che è lì vero? Siamo andati verso il campo della Madonnina dove c’era il campo sportivo di calcio, dove lo frequentavamo anche noi, tutti gli oratori di Pavia. Arrivata poi l’ora un po’ tarda, nel tornare il nostro assistente ha deciso di tornare sui nostri passi e vedere un po’ che cosa era successo. Siamo andati ancora sulla zona e con grande sorpresa abbiamo visto la scarpata dove noi eravamo precipitati per nasconderci era tempestata di spezzoni incendiari, ce n’era qualcuno ancora qualcuno ancora acceso proprio, tant’è vero che qualcuno l’abbiamo portato anche a casa, così tanto per ricordo. Fa niente se [unclear]? Abbiamo saputo, tornando a casa dopo, che un gruppo sempre del nostro istituto, ragazzi di età più avanzata della nostra hanno subito un mitragliamento, quasi al centro della città, nella zona dove c’era il consorzio agrario. Si vede che gli aerei in picchiata nello sganciare le bombe han fatto anche dei mitragliamenti, proprio i nostri amici han dovuto subire questa circostanza, nessuno si è fatto male, tutto è andato bene, per buona fortuna. Vedi adesso io ho perso la la memoria, fa niente beh la sosta dopo lo ricongiungi te, fa niente se faccio delle soste.
FA: Sì, va benissimo.
CI: Devo pensare, adesso dove sono arrivato io.
FA: Allora prima della pausa ci stava dicendo del mitragliamento.
CI: Nei giorni successivi, mentre stavamo in ricreazione in mezzo al cortile nel nostro istituto, in via Fratelli Cremona, abbiamo notato un nutrito stormo di aerei diretti verso Milano, era ormai un’abitudine, tutti i giorni passavano, quel giorno però capitò un caso strano: un aereo incominciò a fumare, proprio sopra il nostro cortile, ovviamente in alto dove si trovava. Questo aereo improvvisamente ha fatto una virata, si è girato e ha fatto ritorno da dove stava per arrivare, da dove stava arrivando. Improvvisamente il fuoco ha invaso l’aereo, oramai era quasi fuori dalla nostra vista, era sopra Tre Re circa diciamo, vero? Paesino appena fuori Pavia. Abbiam notato una cosa strana, mentre precipitava, dei paracaduti si allontanavano dall’aereo e scendevano, uno a destra e uno a sinistra, uno a destra e uno a sinistra. Abbiamo saputo dopo che questi paracadutisti sono stati protetti, raccolti dalla cittadinanza e poi accompagnati in Svizzera, hanno evitato di essere catturati dai tedeschi che occupavano in quel periodo l’Italia. Uno solo è stato catturato: combinazione è caduto in mezzo a un reticolato, si è ferito, quello è stato catturato. Qualche giorno dopo il nostro accompagnatore ha voluto portarci nella zona dove era caduto l’aereo, questo aereo era carico di bombe e prima di cadere a terra è scoppiato, son scoppiate tutte le bombe per cui ha invaso un’estensione enorme quindi c’erano sparsi oggetti frammenti. Abbiam notato un motore collocato su un gelso, chissà com’era finito sopra lì io non riesco a capirlo, vero? Comunque girando qualcuno di noi ha trovato degli oggetti interessanti, un mio amico ha trovato una cassettina metallica con dentro dei, dei prodotti sanitari, delle bende, dei cerotti, dell’alcool, e così via. Io personalmente ho trovato un cappellino militare, di quelli fatti in pelo in pelle col pelo, con l’aletta davanti, col copri orecchie che si poteva staccare e riattaccare al centro in alto, l’ho preso, me lo son nascosto e poi l’ho portato a casa. Questo cappellino ha fatto per me una storia perché quando sono andato a militare qualche anno dopo a 21 anni, la mia mansione era fare il motociclista e io tranquillamente toglievo il berrettino militare e mi mettevo su il mio bel berrettino di cuoio, di di pelo, era per me un po’ un hobby. [long pause] Non so più cosa dire dopo, perché non sono più fresco con la memoria, se mi metto lì a scrivere scrivo e via, ma così all’improvviso mi sfuggono le cose, vero? Militare, personalmente volevo ricordare, ah ecco, una, è acceso? Una cosa vorrei dire che mi è rimasta impressa, per me quei militari aeronautici inglesi o americani che erano, per me sono stati degli eroi, perché se sganciavano le bombe appena ha incominciato l’aereo a far fumo, purtroppo ci andava di mezzo mezza città e tutto il borgo Ticino, invece non hanno scoppiato le bombe ed è per quello che sono scoppiate prima di toccare terra l’aereo in picchiata, quindi per me sono stati degli eroi, forse l’han fatto di proposito, forse è stato nel panico, io non lo so, comunque sia hanno salvato mezza città con la loro azione eh così [long pause]. Ah ecco adesso qui incomincio l’altra, l’altra faccenda, non sono fresco oggi di di, casomai poi lo rifacciamo. Un’altra cosa vorrei dire, tanto per mettere le cose in chiaro: Pavia come altre città, salvo l’intervento di piccoli casi, non è stata liberata dai partigiani come si vorrebbe far credere, Pavia è stata liberata dai pavesi, cittadini pavesi, che son rimasto nell’anonimato, perché erano gente preparati nell’arte della guerra in quanto c’erano, c’era un tenente pilota che era un mio caro amico, vero? Pilota di caccia, che era, non era nei partigiani ma era uno sbandato lì nascosto in collegio dove aveva anche una radio trasmittente e trasmetteva con la RAF e mettendo in contatto i partigiani dell’Oltrepò pavese e del di altre zone collinarie e dei partigiani in giro per l’Alt’Italia. Questo qui, insieme a due cappellani militari, che conoscevo anche io perché erano nascosti nel nostro istituto, con l’appoggio della, della curia vescovile, hanno iniziato ad occupare la prefettura con il buon accordo del prefetto che allora non si chiamava prefetto, si chiamava, come si chiamava? Beh comunque era il personaggio che rappresentava la nazione, l’Italia insomma, allora c’erano ancora i fascisti praticamente, c’era ancora la repubblica, la repubblica di Mussolini, la Repubblica di Salò vero? Insieme ad altre persone che io non conosco hanno iniziato a liberare prima la prefettura e dopo gradualmente hanno armato 10 o 12 ferrovieri i quali avevano il benestare da circolare, avevano il permesso in quanto in servizio per la ferrovia sotto il comando tedesco quindi loro erano liberi di circolare mentre gli altri, tutti gli altri cittadini non potevano circolare, c’era il coprifuoco alle sette di sera tutti a casa, non c’era più nessuno che si muoveva da casa. Loro potevano, quindi sono stati arruolati sempre in buon accordo, vero? E hanno poco a poco disarmato tutte le altre caserme, dalle più piccole alle più grandi, è rimasto poi alla fine il castello. Il castello era un po’, c’erano i prigionieri, i partigiani, era un po’ il comando dei tedeschi, e lì è stata dura, però questi nostri bravi liberatori di Pavia competenti del mestiere c’han saputo fare, son riusciti a convincere una batteria antiaerea che si trovava in periferia di Pavia, nei pressi del ponte dell’Impero, han fatto credere che il castello era occupato dai partigiani, vero? E li hanno invitati con dei cannoncini antiaerei a bombardare il castello, quindi a bombardare direttamente i loro colleghi tedeschi, c’è stato un po’ di parapiglia. Nello stesso tempo son riusciti anche a deviare una colonna militare tedesca che era in fuga da Vercelli verso Pavia dove erano diretti forse per fare anche un concentramento, a deviarli dicendo che Pavia era già tutta occupata, tedeschi non ce n’erano più quindi quel battaglione ha cambiato direzione, non si sa dove sia andato. [pause] Allora, qualche giorno dopo la liberazione di Pavia, sono arrivati i partigiani, io ricordo mi trovavo sul piazzale del Ponte Vecchio di Pavia, lì proprio di fronte alla alla pasticceria eeeh.
FA: Pampanini.
CI: Pampanini, proprio di fronte alla pasticceria Pampanini, gelateria Pampanini vero? Dove esiste ancora tutt’oggi, vero? E ho notato un gruppetto di persone un po’ mal vestite, un po’ malconce ma armate fino ai denti. Si son messi in fila, il comandante ha dato l’ordine e son partiti verso il corso Vittorio Emanuele, così si chiamava, adesso è corso Strada Nuova. E sono entrati in Pavia come conquistatori, purtroppo la città era già stata liberata, Pavia è stata liberata senza nessun incidente, senza nessun morto, neanche un colpo di fucile, neanche i partigiani han dovuto sparare un colpo. Ovviamente dopo han fatto qualche piccola vendetta, qualcuno c’è andato di mezzo ma cose da poco diciamo e così si pensa che Pavia sia stata liberata dai partigiani, non è vero! Poi cos’è che dovrei dire? Cos’è dopo? Ah niente finisce qui.
FA: No una domanda Carlo, ha qualche ricordo dei, degli altri diciamo bombardamenti avvenuti sulla città, magari sulla zona del Borgo Ticino?
CI: Sì! Allora posso raccontare che quasi tutte le notti suonava l’allarme, è acceso? Quasi tutte le notti suonava l’allarme e c’era da precipitarsi in cantina, noi avevamo una cantina nella parte vecchia dell’istituto, era una vecchia cantina tutta puntellata, e ci trovavamo lì, vero? Fin quando suonava il via libera. In quelle circostanze, son capitate delle volte che i muri tremavano, noi eravamo ragazzi io avevo 14 anni, vero? E è capitato anche si sapere il giorno dopo che nei bombardamenti che han fatto per distruggerei i ponti a Pavia, che hanno dovuto continuare per sei o sette turni. Perché nel primo turno han buttato giù il ponte della ferrovia completamente, nel secondo è caduta un’arcata del Ponte dell’Impero, mentre invece il Ponte Vecchio non è mai stato centrato perché gli aerei seguivano la direzione del fiume ma non riuscendo a colpirlo han deciso di cambiare manovra, l’han preso per il traverso per cui le bombe hanno colpito anche le case prima e dopo il ponte distruggendo anche il ponte ovviamente, l’han distrutto completamente, quello è stato l’ultimo. In un altro bombardamento, una bomba sfuggita alla alla dalla zona destinata, caduta in mezzo a un bosco dove proprio si trovava un gruppo di rifugiati, nascosti in una tomba, in un tombone, vero? Due bombe son cadute, una a destra e una a sinistra di questo tombone, li han schiacciati dentro tutti come delle sardine, è stato un disastro. Questo fosso di chiamava “Acuanegra” per cui è ricordato come la tragedia della tomba dell’acqua negra, in Borgo Ticino.
FA: Carlo si ricorda che rumore faceva, che rumore faceva la sirena?
CI: Bah, che rumore faceva? Come si fa a riprodurre una eh una sirena? Non avrei, non ho una, per dar indicazione che ricorda il suono della sirena, cioè non c’è niente che lo ricorda perché le sirene non ce ne sono più come suonavano allora, non le ho più sentite dopo, non ho più avuto l’occasione dopo le sirene che usavano per i bombardamenti, preavvisi per i bombardamenti, non l’ho più sentita.
FA: Era, era diversa la sirena che segnalava l’arrivo dei bombardieri e quella che segnalava…
CI: No no era sempre la stessa.
FA: Sempre la stessa.
CI: Suonavano suonavano, quando suonava l’allarme vero? Era il segnale che arrivavano i bombardieri, quindi c’era da fare il fuggi fuggi, poi quando c’era la la, il passato pericolo, la sirena suonava ancora e si capiva che si poteva ritornare in piena libertà.
FA: E coi suoi, coi suoi compagni all’istituto cosa provavate, cosa, si ricorda qualcosa, cosa vi dicevate?
CI: Eh eravamo giovani e quando si è giovani le decisioni le si prendono un po’alla leggera, senza paura, non è che ero un coraggio, era una cosa naturale, e poi in quel periodo c’era la paura della guerra. La guerra anche non l’abbiamo passata al fronte è sempre guerra, certe cose eh si sopportano tranquillamente senza pensieri, poi quando si è giovani, si è spensierati non si pensano a quelle cose lì. Si pensa a divertirsi, giocare e stare bene in particolar modo in quel periodo noi pensavamo sempre a mangiare qualcosa, eravamo sempre pien di fame, i nostri pasti quasi quasi sempre si concludevano in un piatto di patate o di castagne secche cotte nell’acqua. C’è qualcos’altro che mi vuoi chiedere? Adesso lo sentiamo casomai lo rifacciamo.
FA: Eh prima della pausa Carlo, stavamo dicendo, si ricorda i nomi dei due cappellani militari che nominava prima?
CI: No no, erano segreti purtroppo, non mi ricordo, adesso è passato tanto tempo e non mi ricordo comunque sono sicuro che i nomi non li sapevo, sapevo solo quello del nostro ex-Artigianello, il tenente pilota, si chiamava Mario Cecchetti, vero? Ma dei cappellani non, non ho nessun ricordo dei nomi. Mi ricordo che uno era molto affabile, veniva a giocare anche a pallone insieme a noi, e ci ha anche raccontato che appena, appena c’è stata la disfatta lui è stato catturato un po’ dai fascisti ed è stato costretto a seguire come cappellano militare i fascisti che andavano a fare i rastrellamenti sulle montagne dei partigiani, ha raccontato che questi ragazzi, tutti ragazzi di 14-15 anni inconsapevoli di quello che facevano, non sapevano neanche usare le armi, non sapevano tirare la spoletta delle bombe a mano, non sapevano sparare il fucile e lui ha fatto da maestro un po’ a questi ragazzi a malincuore però ha dovuto farlo, la situazione era quella, appena ovviamente ha potuto è scappato ed è venuto a nascondersi lì agli Artigianelli. L’altro invece era un po’ più scorbutico, un tipo un po’ strano, un po’ stravagante, vero? Non diceva mai niente. Io mi ricordo che andavo a dire messa nei periodi che la chiesa era libera, andava a dire la sua messa e basta, e poi stava sempre nascosto. E poi ovviamente abbiam saputo che, ma solo noi l’abbiam saputo, questa è una storia che io penso che a Pavia non la si sappia neanche. La so io perché di prima persona vero? Ho potuto constatare le cose insomma, mi son capitate vicine, ho potuto parlare con questa gente che erano lì insomma.
FA: E vivevano con voi nell’istituto.
CI: Vivevano con noi, vivevano con noi, si erano nascosti lì da noi.
FA: E dove si nascondevano diciamo?
CI: Eh si nascondevano in nell’ala vecchia dell’istituto dove c’era un po’ di guardaroba, c’era un po’ di, quasi quasi era una zona un po’ isolata e non frequentata né dai ragazzi ma neanche dai superiori diciamo, lì tenevamo per esempio un mulino nascosto dove si macinava il grano che i contadini ci regalavano per la nostra sopravvivenza, avevamo un mulino che si macinava, si macinavano anche le castagne secche per far la farina, poi ci si arrangiava. E loro vivevano, c’era un piano terra, un primo piano, vivevano lì insomma ecco. E poi erano quelle cose che noi ragazzi non è che ci tenavamo a, non era il caso di andare a indagare come vivevano, cosa facevano, però erano lì con noi, noi eravamo protetti. Voglio dire una cosa: ero, tempo dei tedeschi, dell’occupazione tedesca, di fronte a noi c’era le scuole Carducci. Piano terra frequentavano ancora le scuole i ragazzi, al piano di sopra c’erano i mongoli, i mongoli erano prigionieri tedeschi ma li usavano per fare le, le sbandate nell’Oltrepò pavese a dare la caccia ai partigiani assieme ai fascisti, questi questi ragazzi vero? Erano anche loro prigionieri, dovevano fare quello che loro gli ordinavano, mi ricordo che aprivamo le finestre delle nostre camerate e loro ci lanciavano delle caramelle, gliele fornivano i tedeschi ovviamente come come pasto, in aggiunta al pasto erano delle bustine con dentro delle caramelle gommose, dieci o dodici caramelle con il cielo da una parte e dall’altra, trasparente delle delle come delle bustine diciamo e loro ce le lanciavano dentro le nostre finestre. Una volta c’è un altro ricordo, è la storia di Pippo. Pippo era un piccolo aereo che tutte le sere immancabilmente sorvolava Pavia. Si poteva mettere l’orologio a posto, non sbagliava, non sbagliava di un minuto, vero? Appena vedeva una luce lui sganciava una bombetta, ne ha sganciata una anche invia Fratelli Cremona proprio sotto le nostre camerate. Ha fatto un cratere di un metro circa di diametro con una profondità di 15, 20 centimetri, lì c’era un ciottolato di di sassi, vero? Una cosa da poco, però sganciava queste bombette, forse erano bombette piccole, era un preavviso, noi non abbiamo mai saputo se era un servizio dei tedeschi o se era contro i tedeschi, non lo abbiamo mai saputo, veniva a controllare le luci, quando vedeva una luce sganciava la sua bombetta, veniva tutti i giorni, tutti i giorni, tutti i giorni. Lo chiamavamo Pippo [laughs].
FA: Tutte, tutte le sere.
CI: Tutte le sere, tutte le sere. Aveva l’orario fisso [unclear]: arriva Pippo. Tac non sbagliava di un minuto.
FA: Quindi stavate al buio?
CI: Ah si eh sicuramente, e poi era l’orario del coprifuoco, nessuno si muoveva non c’era in giro nessuno e anche anche le luci, anche perché c’erano i sorvoli, i sorvoli degli anglo americani che andavano a bombardare Pavia, in quel periodo, quindi si cercava di tenere la città nascosta, di tenere le luci, senza luci, anche i lampioni della città erano spenti.
FA: Tutto spento.
CI: Malgrado tutto Pavia non è stata una città di bombardamenti, non so il perché, l’han bombardata esclusivamente per i ponti proprio alla fine alla fin fine, quando oramai la guerra per noi era quasi finita, gli americani stavano arrivando, erano già arrivati su verso il centro Italia per cui i tedeschi erano quasi in fuga e i ponti li han buttati giù per bloccare la fuga dei tedeschi praticamente. Ma oramai eravamo alla fine, alla fine del conflitto.
FA: Va bene, d’accordo, allora se non ha altro da aggiungere, la ringraziamo per l’intervista.
CI: Ma di quelle ce ne son tante, però cos’è che potrei dire, ricordi, ricordi. [pause] Ah volevo dire che di questi, di questi signori che hanno partecipato alla liberazione Pavia, son rimasti tutti nell’anonimato. Io sfido chiunque a dirmi un nome di chi ha liberato Pavia nessuno lo sa, perché eran tutti, eran tutti gente o militari, vero? O gente del clero che han preferito rimanere fuori dalla storia quindi si son resi tutti anonimi, non, nessuno lo sa chi erano, nessuno lo sa.
FA: D’accordo.
CI: Come come qualcuno è arrivato, io ho letto nel giornale, anche recente vero? Di qualcuno quando si parla della liberazione di Pavia, ho sentito qualcuno scrivere addirittura che i partigiani sono entrati con l’aiuto di un gruppo di finanzieri, forse si son sbagliati con ferrovieri perché le cose dette e ridette vengono magari anche confuse, io son sicuro che erano ferrovieri e non finanzieri ma però se ne dicono tante quindi accettiamo anche questa per buona. Un’altra storia ti posso raccontare, la storia di Mussolini, una mia storia anche quella, te la racconto? Allora mi trovavo assieme ad altri due amici a Rovescala. Allora si usava andare fuori città a mangiare pane e salame, oramai la guerra era finita da un po’ di anni, con questi miei amici siamo andati a mangiare pane e salame nell’osteria del Grison, in Rovescala, provincia di Pavia. Lì c’era un gruppetto che suonavano l’ocarina, sai cos’è l’ocarina?
FA: No.
CI: È una specie di flauto fatto in terracotta, ha un suono tutto particolare vero? Erano in quattro o cinque che suonavano l’ocarina, vero? E noi si mangiava e si parlava. Il discorso è caduto, non si sa come, sulla storia della fine di Mussolini e si diceva quello che ovviamente si sentiva in giro “L’han fermato a Dongo”, vero? Un gruppo di partigiani proprio dell’Oltrepò pavese hanno avuto l’incarico di andarlo a prendere, ed è vero che Mussolini l’han nascosto prima in una casa, poi in una seconda casa, lì sull’altura di Dongo e mentre parlavamo lì in osteria tranquillamente, stavamo discutendo di questa cosa, si avvicinò un signore di mezza età sulla quarantina, e ci dice: “Volete sapere la storia veramente com’è andata a finire? Ve la racconto io”. E noi siamo rimasti lì di stucco, vero? Ha incominciato fa “Io sono uno dei due che ha fatto la guardia a Mussolini nell’ultima notte. Allora Mussolini e la Petacci han chiesto, han chiesto alla, alla padrona di casa una coperta. Sono andati, la padrona di casa gli ha offerto la sua camera da letto, son andati a dormire e han cercato di chiudere la porta ma noi abbiamo avuto l’ordine di guardarli a vista, di tenerli, di controllarli a vista e ci abbiam detto “No no la porta rimane aperta”. Mussolini è stato così convincente con la sua abilità che ci ha convinto a tenerla chiusa, lui ha detto “Per la privacy, mia moglie…” e ci ha convinti tanto noi eravamo lì in una casetta isolata, vero? Abbiam lasciato chiuso e stavamo lì quasi quasi sonnecchiando a dir la verità. A un certo momento abbiam sentito un tonfo, abbiamo aperto la porta e lui non c’era più e c’era la finestra aperta. Ci siam precipitati fuori e l’abbiam visto che stava scendendo giù da una scarpata, ci abbiam dato l’ALT, due o tre volte, lui non ha risposto e ha continuato ad andare, abbiamo, uno di noi” e non ha detto né io, né l’altro, “Uno di noi” ha detto “Ha sparato un colpo di rivoltella non per colpirlo ma per fermarlo, purtroppo lui è caduto per terra, sono andati là e il colpo gli aveva preso proprio il collo, ovviamente c’è stato un subbuglio, anche gli altri partigiani che erano in zona sono arrivati lì, vero? E l’abbiamo portato su, era morto oramai, rantolava ancora ma oramai era era finito. L’abbiam portato su, abbiam fatto una fatica tremenda e dopo un po’ è arrivato un comandante partigiano, ci ha fatto giurare a tutti di non saper niente, ha portato via Mussolini, la Petacci e non sappiamo dove sono andati a finire. L’abbiam saputo dopo che li ha portati in una zona lì vicino e li ha fucilati. Ma non è vero, era già morto Mussolini, hanno ammazzato la Petacci, ma Mussolini era già morto. La rivoltella che ha ammazzato Mussolini, si trova parcheggiata a Casteggio, in una teca, ci si può informare e andare alla ricerca per vedere se è vero”. Questo è il racconto che ci ha fatto. Oh ovviamente poi è rimasto lì un po’ come per dire “Oh porco cane cosa ho fatto!?” ho detto una cosa che ero sotto giuramento e non devo, però non fa niente oramai non c’è più nessuno”. Perché questa storia ce l’ha raccontata eh tardivamente diciamo, non subito dopo, adesso non ricordo bene ma molto probabilmente tutti quelli che han partecipato forse non c’erano neanche più. E quindi ha detto “Mi raccomando ragazzi, dovete giurarmi che questa cosa non la raccontate a nessuno, e io ho rispettato il giuramento, non l’ho mai detto a nessuno. L’ho detto adesso ultimamente in questi ultimi anni perché oramai non c’è più nessuno di quelli, di quelli che hanno partecipato a quelle azioni lì non c’è nessuno, quindi non vado ad analizzare nessuno. Quindi lo posso raccontare: che sia vero, che sia non vero io la mano sul fuoco non ce la metto, però è quello che ho sentito raccontare.
FA: D’accordo.
CI: Dato che di storie sulla morte di Mussolini ne dicono tante, vero? Ma tante tante, quella vera non la si sa, nessuno la conosce, questa fa parte di una delle tante.
FA: Va bene, va bene, la ringraziamo Carlo.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Carluccio Intropido
Description
An account of the resource
Carluccio Intropido recalls his early life as an orphan studying in Pavia at the Artigianelli, a boarding school providing technical training. He recalls that children used to watch aircraft en route to Milan, until Pavia was bombed owing to the strategical value of their bridges. Recalls being caught under a bombing attack during a field trip, narrowly escaping death. Describes an aircraft on Pavia being hit and aircrew bailing out. One injured and captured, while others were spirited away to Switzerland by local people. Describes school children taken to the crash site and recalls an engine stuck atop a mulberry tree and debris scattered all around. Remembers people salvaging items, among them a first aid kit and a leather aircrew cap, the latter being used when the informant was later enlisted as an army despatch rider. Praises aircrew as heroes for refraining to drop bombs on Pavia when the aircraft was hit. Recalls the liberation of the city mentioning Mario Cecchetti - an insurgent manning a clandestine radio station - and two military chaplains hidden inside the school. Stresses how it was liberated in a non-violent way, mainly through ruse and suasion, and downplays the role of partisans. Describes how people taking shelter in a ditch (Tomba dell’acqua negra) were crushed by nearby explosions. Emphasises a light-hearted approach to war, describing hunger was feared more than the bombing. Recounts anecdotes of the ‘Mongols’ billeted at the school, troops captured by the Germans and deployed for anti-partisan operations. Recalls Pippo and describes its regular passages as being so accurate that people could check the clock against it. Emphasises its role as a black-out checker, in the context of curfew regulations but he was not sure if it was an Allied or Axis aircraft. Describes a post-war encounter with a person who claimed to know an alternative version of Mussolini’s death; he was killed during an escape attempt followed by a staged execution the day after.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:47:21 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Pavia
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-25
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AIntropidoC170125
PIntropidoC1701
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Francesca Campani
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
perception of bombing war
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
shot down
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1085/11543/PPritchardA1701.2.jpg
665f37b1fc773d7c481a87e32db937c5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1085/11543/APritchardC170823.1.mp3
3aaf3d7ce542de333a9bec8d84eec5cd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pritchard, Arthur
A Pritchard
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Carolyn Pritchard about her father, Arthur Pritchard (2206806 Royal air Force) documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with with 463, 467 and 97 Squadron until he was shot down. He was hidden by the French Resistance until the liberation of Paris.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Carolyn Pritchard and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pritchard, A
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Carolyn Pritchard today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Carolyn’s home and it is the 23rd of August 2017. So, first of all thank you Carolyn for agreeing to be interviewed today. So, first of all do you just want to tell me about your father and what he did before the war?
CP: Yes. As he joined up on his, on his eighteenth birthday he didn’t have, after leaving school he worked for a baker’s delivering bread and that’s it really. And then he joined up.
SP: Yeah.
CP: On his eighteenth birthday.
SP: Did he ever say why he wanted to join the RAF?
CP: No. No. No. He didn’t. He didn’t mention why.
SP: Ok. So he went into the RAF and do you know what, where he went first of all? What he did?
CP: Yes. He was, he joined up on his eighteenth birthday and he was, he did his training at St Athans in South Wales. He passed out as flight sergeant and was posted to RAF Winthorpe in Lincoln where he was introduced to his Australian crew as flight engineer. And that was on the 29th of February 1944. He joined the 463 Squadron. That was the Australian squadron in RAF Waddington. They did seventeen sorties while they were in Waddington and they were Germany, over Germany, France. And on the 9th no, sorry it was the 7th of May 1944, the pilot officer Bryan Giddings and crew, that was dad’s crew, they posted, they were posted to 97 Squadron. That was the Pathfinders and that was at RAF Coningsby. They completed another three missions. Seeing action in D-Day. On their twenty first sortie, that was the 9th 10th of June 1944, on a night raid over a railway junction at Etampes, that’s south of Paris, Pilot Officer Giddings and crew failed to return. Right. I don’t know how much —
[recording pause]
CP: After releasing flares over the target the Lancaster ND764 was hit by flak and they were then attacked from below by a night fighter. Many many years later when he was able to relate his story to me he recollected the moment the aircraft was hit. The inner or outer port side engine was on fire. He wasn’t sure which one it was. The suicidal height at which they were flying, the noise, the smoke in the cabin and unable to communicate amongst each other, the cramped conditions in the cockpit, no place to wear your parachute. He always stored it on the floor. Frantically searching for it, the rush of cold air from the open back door. That was the navigator jumping out. Then he trying to prise, prise open the escape hatch at the front. Every second was wasted. Making survival impossible. The whole episode could not have lasted more than a few minutes and before he realised it was a doomed machine he, he had jumped out.
SP: So, how Carolyn, when he told you that, how did you feel when he was relaying the story?
CP: Well, a couple of years later we’d gone back to RAF Coningsby to see the Lancaster and we were able to go on board. And I could then visualise because the Lancaster wasn’t aircrew friendly at all. It was so small and cramped. And I felt so sorry for the mid-upper gunner. Where he was positioned would have been impossible for him to get out. And the tail end Charlie was, he was in this small little cockpit and again that would have been impossible for him to get out and the aeroplane was going down so fast. And eventually when they did find the bodies they were found in, in the aircraft. Yes. The three of them.
SP: So three —
CP: Were, yes it was the bomb aimer, the mid-upper gunner was, he couldn’t get out and the rear gunner which was the tail end Charlie. They are the three that couldn’t get out. The pilot had jumped out when the plane was very very low but his pilot, his parachute didn’t open. And also the wireless operator. No. I’m muddling up now. It was the navigator. The wireless operator had jumped out already and it was the navigator that had jumped out without a parachute and he was found with the whistle in his mouth. So he’d obviously survived the crash but I don’t know how long and was trying to attract attention. Yes.
SP: And how was your father when he was talking about the story?
CP: He was, he’d put the whole episode really at the back of his mind all the years we were growing up. Even though he used to talk about them. The crew.
[recording paused]
SP: So Carolyn, obviously it’s quite emotional talking about your father and the crew there so can you just talk me through what happened then after he’d got out of the plane.
CP: Yes. Because the aircraft was on fire and it was so low he’d baled out and he’d sprained his ankle. So he was hobbling around the French countryside with a damaged ankle and famously asking villagers for the way to the coast. He was trying to get back to the coast. Eventually he’d arrived at a small village, Egly and entered the local church. He’d seen a local man at the altar and [pause] and told him in broken English that he was Welsh. That he was an RAF airman. The French man couldn’t speak English and what he did he took, he gave dad a glass of water and then he took him to a café opposite the church. On entering the café dad waved a hundred franc note from his RAF kit and ordered champagne for everybody in the, in the café. There was panic as the Germans were in the village and he was hastily ushered to the back room. A young teenage boy from the village was brought in. He could speak a little English and he asked dad to explain what had happened. Dad said that his aircraft had been shot at and that he’d baled out and, but he was really uncertain with the rest of the crew and he kept asking and asking how they were. So that they could check his identity with London they hid dad in a small air raid shelter underground and if they, if he hadn’t checked out right I think they would have just left him there. Once the ok came from London the local leader of the French Resistance was summoned and put him in the care of Monsieur George Danton and his family. They risked being shot if caught hiding a British airman and he was given a new identity, well an identity and civilian clothing. His ID was a deaf and dumb Frenchman. And a bicycle. He was moved from safe house to safe house until eventually he ended up in Paris. In Antony in Paris. He was always instructed to follow a parcel tied to the back of Mr Danton’s cycle. Not Mr Danton himself. And once they had arrived at Mr Danton’s house in Paris Mr Danton went into the building without the parcel. The parcel was still left on the bicycle and a few minutes later came out, picked up the parcel, took it into the house and then dad followed. And that was the time that they could embrace each other because they knew then that they were in a safe house.
SP: So, Carolyn obviously dad’s now in the safe house. Did he talk about what life was like in the safe house?
CP: Yes. He did. He kept a diary while he was there. Life was very mundane. And there was little food. Jam and bread kind of thing. And now and again they used to try and get a cigarette for him because he was absolutely desperate for cigarettes. And then they tried to teach him. They tried to teach him a couple of French words to just to get about and whenever it was a bit safe for them to go out Mr Danton used to take him to the, some of the airfields where the German, the Germans had their weapons and aircraft and say to dad, ‘You make sure that you remember this. That when you get back to the UK and you’re debriefed that you can tell them where things are.’ That kind of thing. Yes. Yes.
SP: So, how did he actually get back to — obviously he was in a safe house.
CP: Yes.
SP: How did he get back in to the UK?
CP: He was, he was in the safe house for over two months. And then there was the liberation of Paris on the August the 24th. Right.
[recording paused]
CP: Yes. On or about the 23rd of June they tried to get dad back to the, to the UK. They were expecting a Lysander aircraft to land on, on a landing strip but they tried a couple of times but it was, they felt it was too dangerous because the Germans were still, still around. So they had to, it was just too risky so they had to abort. They tried to get him out there but eventually he hitched a lift with a war correspondent for the Sunday Pictorial. A Rex North. And they eventually got to Paris. On the way there they were, he was given a bottle of champagne which I’ve, we’ve still got today actually in the house. Undrinkable. Yes. And eventually on the 24th of August he flew back in a Dakota to the French, from the French coast to Hendon. And at that time, after that he was debriefed. He had to go down to London to be debriefed to what he’d seen. And, and that was it.
SP: Did he talk at all about the debriefing? Did he say that was like or —
CP: No. He didn’t. He remembered. He had a marvellous memory. He’d remembered everything he’d seen while he was in Paris trying to help. Trying to help while he was back. No. He didn’t actually. No, he didn’t.
SP: And what happened after the debrief? Did he, what happened to him after that?
CP: Well he, he’d, he was allowed home. One thing. One thing that struck me when I was, I had always been speaking to him over the years was how he didn’t get any counselling and everything. There were so many people killed and he kept asking, ‘What’s happened to the crew? What’s happened to the crew?’ And they didn’t know. Even the crew, years and years later after speaking to the crew’s families they hadn’t known for years, well months, what had happened to them. And he was allowed to go home. Which, he came back to our little village here and, and that was it. He had a couple of weeks here and then he was posted to Scotland as an air traffic controller. So that was the end of his war. Yes. And where he met my mother.
SP: Right.
CP: She was in the RAF as well. She was a WAAF. Yes.
SP: So, obviously they met up in Scotland and then —
CP: Yes. They did. Yes. Yes. They met up in Scotland.
SP: And came back to live in Wales.
CP: Eventually, they did. Yes. They, they got married and always lived in this little village. Yeah. My mother was from Liverpool. Yes. Yeah.
SP: And then what did your father do after the war?
CP: He worked in construction. Working for big machinery. He was offered a career in the RAF as [pause] I think in Canada. They wanted him to be trained in Canada but he wasn’t interested anymore after going through such harrowing experience during the war. He didn’t want anything to do with flying. Yes. So he took a different career.
SP: What about you? How did it affect you growing up with your father’s stories? Was it —
CP: Well, it did. He always, he always, he hid a lot. He always talked about the boys.
[recording paused]]
CP: Yes. Always talked about the boys to our families. And as we were growing up we knew about them even though we had never met them. And when my sister Shirley and her husband had got married they had gone to Europe on their honeymoon and thought they would try and trace first of all the French Resistance families to try and get back in touch again. Which they did. They managed to, to get in touch with the French Resistance. That was in 1977. I think it was 1977. And eventually my dad went over for the first time in 1977 to meet the families of the French Resistance. And ever since, all his life he kept in touch with them. They either came to our little village here to see him or he’d gone back to see them. All always visiting the boy’s graves. By that time he’d known that they perished and they knew exactly where they’d been buried and the stories. The harrowing stories that followed. Yeah. So we did know the boys. And he used to come up with some funny stories about them. Like if he had a date with a WAAF they’d all go to the pictures together [laughs] Yeah.
[recording paused]
CP: Yes. He used to talk, like I said about the boys. One was an avid reader. Always had a book. Even when they went on, on their ops at night and the pilot used to have to say, ‘Put that light off,’ because he had this tiny little light in his, he was a upper-gunner. Just in case he attracted the Germans. And I think the rear gunner used to write poetry. I’m sure dad said he did. They were well educated. Very very well educated men. I think they taught my father a lot because first of all they couldn’t understand him when he joined the crew because he was Welsh speaking all his life. Had a very big accent. Welsh accent. Could hardly speak English to be honest. Yes. And they taught him a lot of culture. Yes. Took him to London on their time off when they had time off. And a few of them used to come to our little village when they, because they couldn’t go back to Australia obviously when they had time off and they used to come to the village here. My dad’s family had met them. Yes. Lovely men.
SP: And you kept in touch you say, with the Resistance.
CP: Oh yes.
SP: Did you keep in touch with the Australian families as well?
CP: Families, as well. Yes. And that, well he hadn’t really because I’m one of eight so during, during his time while we were growing up he had a lot on his hands [laughs] So he, he didn’t have time but as we grew up and we knew about the boys I used to try and say, ‘Oh, do you remember where they came from, dad?’ And all that. Anyway, I think it was in 2004. I think it was 2004 there was a knock on the front door and a man handed my father a letter and left. So he read the letter and it was a member of the crew. It was the Webb family. And they had found out my father, where my father lived, managed to get somebody that was connected to the 97 Squadron website, Ron Evans, to deliver, who lived in Wales, to deliver a letter to dad introducing themselves. Saying that if he didn’t want to get in touch, you know, keep in touch or get in touch with them that was ok. But my father was absolutely thrilled he had their address. They lived in Sydney so, and then we, I was on the internet then so I was able to email them and say yes of course. I think it was 2006 they came over from Australia and spent six weeks in Wales with us here. And that was very nice. And then the McGill family, that was the upper gunner, they came over in, I think it was just over two years ago and we went to the Bomber Command Spire. The unveiling of the Spire. They came and we were in touch and we’re still in touch with them all. Yes. We’re still in touch with the Australians. Lovely people. Send Christmas cards every year. Have letters from them. Yes. Unfortunately, part of, well the Giddings family they’ve, they’ve died. We’ve lost touch there. The Clements family the same. But the Seales we still speak to. The Webbs and the McGills. Yes.
SP: And how important is that to you to keep that contact going?
CP: Oh, it’s very important. Yes. The boys. Memories are still, still there. And actually the, actually both families the McGills and the Webbs we actually went over to France on different occasions to stay with the Dantons and to visit the graves. Yeah. So that they could see where they were. Yeah.
SP: So, we were talking about your father earlier. You mentioned on the day of the final flight.
CP: Oh yes.
SP: For the whole crew.
CP: Yes.
SP: They had certain superstitions. It didn’t feel quite right that day. Do you just want to share that story?
CP: Yes. Yes. They used to, well they used to, you know just before they taxied off for the mission they used to wee on the front wheel. But that particular night three or four WAAFs had come down to the air, airfield to wave them off so they couldn’t carry out the weeing. So that was the night that the plane was shot down so my father felt that if only they’d wee’d. Yeah.
SP: Did you talk about that? Saying that was a superstition that they had.
CP: They all, yes. They always carried it, they did that every time they went on a mission. Yes. But not that particular night. Yes.
SP: Just chatting, is there anything else you feel you want to say about that you haven’t had the chance to say about your father or any, the impact on the family or anything like that?
CP: Well, I think, I think going back to when they used to come back from their missions and then they were always, they always were given a big breakfast. And they’d be sitting there with their cigarettes obviously. And they used to call, they used to have tablets, uppers and downers I think but he never used to touch them. But the coldness of when they used to go into the mess and the fact that their locker had been cleared and as if they had never existed. You know, the crews that had never returned. I just felt that that was very sad and he always used to feel that was very sad. Yes. And the fact that he didn’t know, while he was in France, he didn’t know what had happened to the rest of the crew and he’d asked and asked and nobody knew and it was months later that he did find out and that was so, so sad for him. Yeah. Because they were best of friends. Did everything together.
SP: That’s ok. Alright. Well, I just want to —
CP: Yeah.
SP: Thank you Carolyn very much for sharing those stories and obviously the impact on you as well.
CP: Yes.
SP: So, on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre thank you very much.
CP: Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Carolyn Pritchard
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APritchardC170823, PPritchardA1701
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:26:53 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Carolyns father, Arthur, joined the Royal Air Force on his 18th birthday. Following his training as a flight engineer, was posted to RAF Winthorpe. He was allocated to a crew consisting entirely of Australians. In February 1944 the crew were posted onto Lancaster aircraft of 463 Squadron at RAF Waddington. On the 7th May 1944, they were posted to 97 Squadron at RAF Coningsby. It was from RAF Coningsby on their 21st operation on board ND 764, they were shot down 30 miles south of Paris. Carolyn describes in detail the events, from the aircraft being damaged by anti-aircraft fire and then being attacked by a Luftwaffe fighter, to the escape from the aircraft and subsequent contact with French civilians who sheltered him up to his return to the UK after the liberation of Paris in August 1944. Following his return, Arthur was granted three weeks leave. He did not return to flying, instead he retrained and became an air traffic controller. He was posted to Scotland, and it was here he met his future wife. In the 1970’s, whilst on a holiday in Europe, her sister managed to establish contact with members of the French Resistance who had sheltered Arthur. In 1977 Arthur was able to visit them and the graves of his fellow crew who did not survive and remained in contact for the remainder of his life. Carolyn recalls her father describing a superstition the crew used to carry out before each opeion. Each crew member would urinate on the aircraft wheels before boarding. Several members of the Women's Auxiliary Air Force came to wave them off on their last opeion and discretion meant they were unable to carry out their routine.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
France--Paris
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-02
1944-05-07
1944-08
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
463 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
evading
final resting place
flight engineer
ground personnel
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF Waddington
RAF Winthorpe
Resistance
shot down
superstition
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2221/38716/MB CR 3 A.2.mp3
b5d5e98c56e5db38764983ef9287ddd6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
ISRPt. Survivors of the 1943-1944 Pistoia bombings
Description
An account of the resource
12 interviste a testimoni dei bombardamenti alleati di Pistoia, realizzate da Claudio Rosati tra il 1983 e il 1984 con l'intento di comprendere e studiare gli effetti che le incursioni aeree hanno avuto sulla popolazione civile tra il 1943 e il 1944. Gli esiti della ricerca furono esposti al convegno internazionale di studi “Linea Gotica. Eserciti, popolazioni, partigiani” svoltosi a Pesaro il 27/28/29 settembre 1984 e pubblicati nella rivista Farestoria n. 1/1985, edita dall'Istituto storico della Resistenza di Pistoia. L’istituto, dove le cassette sono state in seguito depositate, ha gentilemente concesso all’IBCC di digitalizzarle e di pubblicarle in licenza. Le interviste conservano la struttura originale, che può essere diversa dal modo in cui le interviste dell’IBCC Digital Archive sono di solito realizzate. La digitalizzazione rispecchia fedelmente le caratteristiche delle registrazioni originali, con minimi interventi. In base agli accordi con il licenziatario, i sunti delle interviste sono dati in italiano ed inglese.
12 oral history interviews with survivors of the Pistoia bombings, originally taped by Claudio Rosati between 1983 and 1984 with the aim to understand the fallout of the 1943-1944 operations on civilians. The findings were presented at the international symposium “Linea Gotica. Eserciti, popolazioni, partigiani” (Pesaro, 27/28/29 September 1984) and then published on 'Farestoria' n. 1/1985, published by the Istituto storico della Resistenza di Pistoia. The Istituto, where the tapes were later deposited, has kindly granted permission to the IBCC Digital Archive to digitise and publish them. Interviews published here retain their original format, which may differ from the way IBCC Digital Archive ones are normally conducted. The digitisation captures faithfully the characteristics of the original recordings with minimal editing only. According to the stipulations with the licensor, summaries are provided in Italian and English.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CR: Bombardamento di Pistoia.
CD: Primo bombardamento di Pistoia, dev’esse’ stato di ottobre, forse il 26 –
CR: La notte tra il 20 e il 21 ottobre –
CD: Io me la ricordo bene, perché io e la mi’ mamma s’era state a Certaldo dove ci s’aveva un parente fattore e ci dava il grano. Pensa cosa si faceva: si partiva da Pistoia, i treni non funzionavano, si partiva da Pistoia, s’andava a Certaldo, che pe’ arrivarci ci volea le binde –
CR: Già da ora, anche ora andare a Certaldo –
CD: E pensa che cos’era in quel periodo. Si tornava – noi ci s’era fatti fare – ci s’aveva dei necessari da viaggio piccolini così, dove ci stava preciso una stagna d’olio che era una diecina di litri, questo nostro amic – fattore parente ci dava l’olio non al mercato nero, cioè aveva ordine – era un fattore degli Arrigoni degli Oddi e aveva l’ordine di dare tutto quello che c’era soprappiù a prezzo di calmiere, quindi ci dava questa valigina, era piccolina così, pesava, a me m’era allungato per fin le braccia e ci dava grano e questo – io ero tornata, s’era tornati stanchi morti [enfasi] verso le nove la sera, io m’ero buttata a letto, improvvisamente si sentì due suoni di sirena, ma purtroppo era capitato che queste sirene nelle notti precedenti sonassero quasi sempre e sempre a voto e noi si prendeva anche due volte per notte io e la mi’ mamma – il mio babbo no, perché lui non avea paura, ma io e la mi’ mamma s’era – la mi’ mamma era tanto paurosa, si prendeva la bicicletta e s’andava anche di notte dal Civinini per esempio e sempre a voto. Questa volta noi s’era talmente stanchi che non s’ebbe la forza di prendere la bicicletta e di scappare, tanto si disse ‘Sarà una stupidaggine anche quella’. Improvvisamente si sentì questo colpo di sirena, ci s’alzo però, perché la paura era tanta, io mi ricordo l’impressione d’aver aperto l’uscio, perché ci s’aveva una specie di rifugio che era lì in via Franchini –
AG: Perché dove stavi?
CD: Qui vicino, io stavo in via Gemignani. In via Franchini avean fatto un rifugio dove ora c’hanno fatto – c’è un palazzo, c’è un terreno abbandonato, c’hanno fatto un rifugio che era – sarà stato profondo quanto? Du’ metri e sopra c’era un po’ di terra, s’entrava da una parte e dall’altra e c’era delle panche, un c’andava mai nessuno perché tutti diceano ‘Si fa la morte del topo’. Questa volta [enfasi] io mi ricordo il babbo, che non aveva mai paura, deve aver aperto la finestra, perché a un certo punto ha detto ‘Maria, preparatevi e andiamo nel rifugio’ [enfasi] e poi mi son resa conto del perché, perché aprendo l’uscio i bengala – è stata una cosa folle, Pistoia – io, veder calare – che poi un si sapea, perché noi – se eran bombe, che roba era [enfasi], quindi, veder questo, insomma – noi alla meglio s’è avuto la forza d’arrivare a questo rifugio. La mi’ nonna, poera donna, che correa meno di noi, la prima bomba gli sbattè la porta e rimase in casa, noi ci si ritrovò nel rifugio e questa povera donna si trovò a casa e intanto avean cominciato perché furono due ondate, a me mi sembrò che durassero due o tre ore l’una, probabilmente saranno durate pochi minuti, ma mi ricordo una cosa, che erano talmente forti, si sentiva – che mi’ padre non era un acceso religioso, a un certo momento disse – s’era diverse persone, gli disse ‘E ora recitiamo l’atto di dolore, perché’ gli disse ‘questa è la fine della nostra vita’. Quindi andaron via, poi si tirò il fiato, mentre si tirava il fiato brumm ritornò con la seconda ondata.
CR: Ma fisicamente cosa si prova?
CD: Fisicamente una di quelle paure, ma talmente tremenda [enfasi] perché insomma si capisce che tu mori ecco, io ero convintissima di non sortirci viva di lì.
CR: E tutta la gente aveva questo atteggiamento?
CD: Tutta la gente perché non– e stranamente nessuno urlava.
CR: Non c’erano scene d’isteria [?] –
CD: La paura – dov’ero io s’era almeno una quindicina, ci si ammutolì tutti, questo pover’uomo disse ‘diciamo l’atto di dolore’ e io mi ricordo si disse l’atto di dolore.
AG: Tutti zitti.
CD: E tutti zitti, a tenere il fiato perché parea che tenendo il fiato si tenesse anche le bombe, quindi fu – ma poi effettivamente cascarono molto vicine perché – l’hai presente dunque Via G – dunque Via Mazzini è qui dietro –
AG: Via Gemignani è dove sta la Paola.
CD: E cascarono qui vicino, cascarono dal Morandi e poi un’altra cosa che mi ricordo io uscendo dal rifugio il puzzo delle vernici bruciate, perché era bruciato tutto il Morandi e poi tutto ‘sto fumo, tutto questo –
CR: Ma non ve l’aspettavate che Pistoia sarebbe stata bombardata?
CD: No, perché non ci s’aspettò [?].
CR: Non ci credeva [parlano contemporaneamente]
CD: Non ci si credeva perché – e poi ti dirò un’altra cosa, che nessuno di noi aveva idea del che fosse veramente un bombardamento, perché una cosa è senti’ dire ‘Hanno bombardato’, una cosa è averle sul capo, tant’è vero che io rimasi talmente terrorizzata che poi anche tutti gli altri bombardamenti – che poi ce ne furon diversi, io poi ebbi anche la bellezza la sventura di sfollare a Gello vicino a Piteccio e quello di Piteccio mi ricordo d’aver visto saltare il ponte e d’aver visto cascare le bombe, io mi ricordo – ho l’immagine visiva di questi grappoli continui a quattro – ecco, ma non erano a grappolo, erano a quadrato, così, mi ricordo di averle viste e saltare il ponte di Piteccio, noi si stette a Gello e non lo buttavan mai giù, noi a pregare che buttassero giù questi ponti e non riuscivano a buttarli giù in punti modi perché – poi i mitragliamenti s’è avuto anche, perché lì nella zona di Gello ci mitragliarono.
CR: Ma cosa si pensava? Cioè, che bombardassero per terrorizzare la popolazione civile o che volevano prendere – ecco, cosa pensavate?
CD: Secondo noi – guarda, ti dirò anche che a un certo momento sì, ci facevano una paura da morire, ma insomma s’era talmente stufi della guerra che al limite s’accettava anche che bombardassero per veder se finiva questo martirio.
CR: Anche questa è un’altra tattica
CD: Io un lo so, certe sensazioni forse gli adulti li potranno aver avute, io avevo altro che sen – io [incomprensibile] mi padre che era un tipo stranissimo, a parte che lui era un uomo che – era conosciutissimo antifascista, perché lui aveva perso l’impiego, tutto e tipo non aveva paura di niente, però lui era sempre stato di quelli che quando la gente andò a dire ‘La guerra, viva la guerra’, lui disse ‘Ricordatevi che questa guerra dura – dura da farci morir tutti, vero’, lui aveva visto bene veramente, quindi io ho le sensazioni di ragazzina e veramente – prendi un’altra sensazione terribile [enfasi], io mi ricordo, fu una volta che s’era a Gello e sempre lì si cominciò – allora non si sentiva gli allarmi perché non c’era, non esisteva, però cominciarono a passar gli aeroplani, io mi ricordo per du’ ore – e mi domando ancora dove andassero, cominciarono a passare squadriglie, io forse il tempo [incomprensibile], però per una buona mezz’ora passarono fortezze volanti e andavano giù al sud, doe l’avranno buttate tutte le bombe? Saranno state centinaia, io ora mi viene in mente forse era lo sbarco a Anzio, non lo so, il terrore di queste fortezze volanti che ti casc – giravan sulla testa, tu dicevi ‘Sì, e se se ne stacca l’ultima squadriglia?’ come facevan quasi sempre, perché la prima volta fu un terribile bombardamento così. Le altre volte, i bombardamenti di Pistoia – noi si videro bene da Gello – furono a tappetto invece, perché qui loro cercavano proprio gli obiettivi, perché cercavan la San Giorgio e picchiaron tutto for che lì, però l’altre volte invece li facevano proprio a tappetto, cioè passava – si vedeva queste – in genere erano dodici aeroplani o ventiquattro trrrrrr passavano, brumm, mentre passavano scaricavano le bombe così a tappetto e riandavan via. In un certo senso era più – meno pauroso quello perché – qui insomma io mi ricordo che durò tanto il primo bombardamento di Pistoia, fu una –
CR: E nonostante tutto l’odio verso chi bombardava non c’era?
CD: Non c’era perché s’aspettavano e si seguiva e ci pareva che camminassero troppo piano perché si seguiva – tant’è vero che quando arrivarono furono accolti come liberatori, io me lo ricordo l’arrivo dei sudafricani per esempio a Vinacciano, arrivarono i sudafrican – la mi nonna [ride] che aveva i piedi piatti un l’aveva avvistati, era vecchia e grassa, arrivò nell’aia di quest’contadino dove s’er – ‘Arriva l’inglesi’ [enfasi] facea, correa poera donna e arrivò questo branco di sudafricani con tutti il che aveano. I mezzi [enfasi] era una cosa incre – io non ho mai visto uno spreco – ecco perché ti dio che gli uomini li rispettavano, perché loro buttavano il materiale, specialmente gli amer – gli inglesi no, avean miseria [ride], ma gli americani aveano il materiale, il mi’ babbo la chiamava [?] l’acqua del corallo [?] –
CR: Questa guerra l’aveva rovinati, cioè gli americani entraron molto dopo e poi [incomprensibile] –
CD: Sì, sì e poi non aveano la potenzialità [parlano contemporaneamente] economica degli americani, ma insomma [incomprensibile] un soldato ameriano avea dieci divise da cambiarsi, vero, cose incredibili. Se loro non aveano tutte le loro comodità, i bagni, la disinfezione venerea – perché poi voi non avete un’idea del che era Pistoia, vero, doe c’era – ogni tanto c’era il famoso venerean disisian [?] e doe andavano a disinfetta’, ma cose incredibili, certo, chi non ha vissuto il periodo del dopoguerra – era poi il senso della liberazione della paura e del fatto che non venia i bombardamenti, questa gioia di vivere che noi giovani s’aveva e che voi forse non avete mai provato –
CR: Sì, sì, no, è vero –
CD: Ecco, perché è stata una reazione talmente forte allo spavento alla paura – però io ti dirò, anche che io c’ho almeno – di tutti i miei amici ce n’è almeno dieci o quindici che son morti d’infarto dopo quarant’anni, vero, quindi vuol dir che –
AG: La paura –
CD: Vol di’ che qualcosa –
CR: La metti in relazione a –
CD: Ma io la metto si in relazione [enfasi] perché guarda ogni tanto li conto e dico ‘Ma come, è tutta gente che è morta appena passato quarant’anni’, perché insomma –
CR: È una cosa che rimane questa del ricordo dei bombardamenti? Segna?
CD: Io, no come – no no –
[parlano contemporaneamente]
CR: È tra i ricordi più vivi, o no?
CD: Per me è uno dei simboli della paura ecco.
CR: È ancora un simbolo della paura?
CD: Sì, perché tante volte – vedi, a me per esempio anche rivedere film quando vedo questi bombardamenti mi fa impressione, perché ora quando li vedo so quel che sono, prima quando si sentiva che bombardavan Genova, Londra, sì ‘Poerini, poerini’ ma insomma un tu hai mia un’idea del che vuol dire sentirti venir giù roba – e queste esplosioni spaventose, perché poi una bomba fa un rumore incredibile, vero, gli spostamenti d’aria e poi insomma tutti tu sai – tu lo sai doe cascano [enfasi], dici ‘Chi – perché non deve casca’ proprio sulla testa a me?’, è una specie di roulotte russa, vero, di roulotte russa capito, il che –
CR: La gente distingueva se erano americani o inglesi? [incomprensibile]
CD: No, inglesi non –
CR: C’era un po’ di esperienza sui bombardamenti?
CD: Dai tedeschi agli ameriani si riconoscevano e poi si riconosceva per esempio quelli da caccia e poi c’era il famoso Pippo, il famoso aeroplano, il nostro [incomprensibile] –
CR: Ecco, questo –
[parlano contemporaneamente]
CD: Tutti lo sanno, dunque questo era un aeroplano – dunque, noi si sfollò – quando cominciarono a bombardar Piteccio che non gli riuscia pigliarlo, noi non se ne potea più dalla paura perché s’era proprio dietro, mi’ madre che faceva la maestra, era stata Vinacciano, andò io e lei si ria– si andò a cerca’, perché un tu trovavi posto, andò dai suoi scolari, ci dettero una cameruccia e si riprese il ciuo, che lui da mi’ padre un si volea movere, gli si fermò sul ponte di Pontelungo, gli toccò aiutarlo i tedeschi perché c’avea un carro – c’aveano un carro armato dietro e questo ciuo non si moveva, sicché si sfollò a Vinacciano, ecco, moltissime sere passava questo aeroplano, probabilmente era un ricognitore, ma che ricognizione facea di notte? Si sentiva questo aeroplano solitario che passava proprio probabilmente su tutta Pistoia, perché l’hanno sentito tutti.
CR: E come venne fuori questo discorso di Pippo?
CD: Lo chiamavan Pippo, tutti si chiamava Pippo, l’origine non si sa –
[parlano contemporaneamente]
CR: La gente cosa pensava di questo aeroplano?
CD: Si pensava che il giorno dopo veniano a bombardare, perché questa era la paura, che il giorno dopo bombardavan da qualche parte. Perché per esempio, quando noi s’era a Vinacciano, successe anche un altro episodio strano: un aeroplano io penso fosse in avaria, perché proprio dietro al bosco dove si stava noi – intanto parea che le bombe ci rincorressero dietro – sganciò una bomba in un bosco dove non c’era nulla, probabilmente lui la sganciò proprio in un bosco perché sapeva di non far danno e fece un di que’ bui che dalla paura si disse ‘Oh qui che bombardano?’ perché un tu sapevi più doe andare, perché praticamente bombardavano un po’ a casaccio, vero –
AG: Tutti erano andati via da Pistoia.
CD: Pistoia era un – un cimitero, guarda, io un’impressione – ecco, un’altra delle impressioni più drammatiche che io ho della guerra è la sera del – c’era stato il bombardamento, nel giorno dopo tutti andarono a cercare un buco dove andare, la sera noi s’era sulla strada di Capostrada, verso la Forretta, noi s’era a Gello – si stava andando a Gello e s’aspettava il mi’ babbo che venisse per farli vedere do’ era sta casa, vedere l’esodo della gente [enfasi], la fila interminabile di sciaurati col carretto e la materassa con la pentola, chi c’avea il ciuo bon per lui [enfasi], perché allora non esistea la bicicletta –
AG: A piedi.
CD: Sulla – a piedi, perché sulla bicicletta i carichi di roba – i bambini, le famiglie, una fila interminabile di sfollati. Pistoia, la notte dopo il bombardamento, si vuotò completamente e mi ricordo un altro episodio, quando io e la mi’ mamma s’era la mattina a Bruzio e s’andò a Gello, perché lei era stata nominata a Gello, quindi si cercava il posto dove lei aveva la scuola e a cercare questo posto si passò dall’Ombrone perché un si potea passare dal Viale Malta, da Viale Adua, perché s’avea paura che – a un certo momento venne una Cicogna, ma era un aeroplano, strano, si chiamava “La Cicogna”, che non era fatto come gli altri, era un po’ come un vecchio aeroplano di ‘elli un po’ antichi, anche quello era un ricognitore probabilmente e la paura – randoloni – s’era sull’Ombrone dietro un ponticciolo [?] largo, che voi che facesse? Quello era proprio irrazionale, ma noi un si sapeva nulla di questi aeroplani, qual erano quelli che bombardavano e quelli che faceano le fotografie, per noi quando se ne vedea volare uno s’era tutti di fori, ma guarda Pistoia era un deserto –
AG: E tutti ospitavano in campagna.
CD: Ma facendosi profumatamente pagare, perché per i contadini fu una bella pacchia.
AG: Si facevano dare qualcosa –
CR: Non sono stati di solidarietà umana –
CD: Noi – ti dirò che io – noi si stava in una bella villettina, no, no, non c’era tanta solidarietà in questo senso, c’era –
[parlano contemporaneamente]
AG: Se c’avea un parente –
CD: I parenti [incomprensibile] ma noi s’andò in casa di contadini, noi si pagava dugento lire il mese per una bella villettina in Via Gemignani e dugento lire il mese si dettero a questi contadini per una ‘amera e un granaio. No, no, si faceano pagare i contadini, poi c’era un mercato nero floridissimo, vero, i contadini in quel periodo s’arricchiron quasi tutti, anche perché per esempio noi s’era costretti – siccome poi durante il periodo della guerra stipendi un ne pagarono più, si rimase tutti – io mi ricordo i miei avevano ritirato i pochi risparmi che avevano, avevan cinquemila lire, ma tu li finivi presto senza stipendio, si stette almeno tre o quattro mesi, poi il dramma fu che quando arrivarono a riprendere lo stipendio: mi’ madre prese trecento lire e una scatola di cera, tornaron da Prato terrorizzati perché avean pagato una scatola di cera cinquanta lire, costava quindi, quindi successe anche che ai contadini parecchi si pagava in natura. Io mi ricordo parecchi dei nostri bei lenzoli di lino furon dati in cambio di farina e roba del genere, perché un tu mangiavi se un c’era il mercato nero, perché con quello che ci davan di tessera per l’amor di Dio.
CR: E dei morti dei bombardamenti si seppe nulla?
CD: Terribile. Ce ne furono – io mi ricordo l’episodio lì di Via Provvidenza: in una casa di Via della Provvidenza ci cascò una bomba, ci moriron tutti e mi ricordo l’aveano sdraiati – io non li vidi perché a quei tempi ai ragazzi non li facevan vede’ queste cose, però ce lo raccontava il babbo.
CR: Questo nel primo bombardamento –
CD: Primo bombardamento, mi pare furono centoventisei i morti a Pistoia.
CR: Solo a Pistoia –
CD: Mi pare, sì, ora poi queste cifre sono certamente rilevabili e in Via della Provvidenza era morto, mi pare, nove persone e le avevano tutte allineate lì nella strada tutte così, sì, sì e ne morir – dopo ne morì pochi perché si scappò tutti, ma il primo bombardamento fu il frutto dell’a lupo a lupo. Siccome – anche noi s’era scappati pe’ tre mesi, tutte le notti da non ne pote’ più [enfasi]: due volte pe’ notte dalla paura [enfasi]. Quella notte, si vede, parecchi dissero – perché probabilmente le serate precedenti c’enno stati diversi allarmi e non era successo niente, a quel punto la gente disse ‘Ma insomma un verranno stasera’ e invece fu proprio la serata.
CR: Poi la gente credeva che a Pistoia non ci fossero obiettivi –
CD: Che non – ma un po’ si pensava però, la San Giorgio ci facea paura a tutti perché lo dicevano che la San Giorgio sarebbe stato un obiettivo, io un so poi in effetti quali loro ritenevano obiettivi qui, la San Giorgio o il nodo ferroviario –
CR: Il nodo ferroviario perché permetteva di andare al di là –
CD: Sì, e la cos – ecco, molto poi puntarono su quel famoso ponte di Piteccio, perché la direttissima probabilmente era saltata –
CR: Buttando giù quello si bloccava –
CD: Sì, però lo buttaron giù, finalmente dopo – la sera che noi si scappò a Vinacciano. Da Vinacciano si vide bombardare il ponte di Piteccio e buttarlo giù, ma buttaron giù solo un’arcata e i tedeschi nel capo a tre giorni l’aveano ribell’e riaccomodata, però non fu – un po’ lo – mitragliavano molto, ma non –
CR: Sì, il ponte di Piteccio è stata una storia – ma a Piteccio non c’era stato più nessuno? Eran andati tutti via?
CD: Roba pazzesca, ma noi si facea altro che scappare, noi si scappò tre o quattro volte.
CR: Perché ci insistettero tante volte, vero? Mi diceva –
CD: Tantissimo, io mi ricordo d’averne visti almeno tre o quattro di bombardamenti da Gello.
CR: Ah, li riusciva –
CD: Perché era messo in una posizione tale per cui – tu l’hai visto com’è fatto, bisognava proprio pigliarlo di filata, ecco perché poi dopo mandavano molti caccia, mitragliavano molto ma un ce la faceano, insomma, buttaron giù alla meglio quest’arcata ma poa roba vero, i ponti [incomprensibile] no [pausa] che altre notizie t’hanno dato di –
CR: Dei bombardamenti? Ma, in tanti comuni, ecco, c’è questo: molti – a parte non è che ne ho intervistati molti – non si aspettavano di Pistoia, ecco, questo discorso di Pistoia – cioè questa era – anche l’altra sera mi ricordo Giancarlo ci disse anche loro rimasero in casa –
AG: Loro rimasero in casa.
CR: Sì, anche loro erano rimasti in casa, non se l’aspettavano.
CD: Era piena di gente Pistoia, sì.
CR: Poi dopo qual era l’altro tratto comune che ora si diceva?
AG: Io non ne ho sentiti tanti.
CR: No ma comunque viene – ah, questo della preghiera, tutti, cioè questo –
CD: Ah si?
CR: Questo della preghiera, tutti. Mi diceva per esempio l’onorevole Bianchi – ho intervistato anche lui – che anche loro erano scappati oltre il cimitero, c’era un rifugio e loro appunto si facevan meraviglia dice ‘Io sa’ sono credente, faceva ridere’ dice ‘di gente che senza fargli offesa, insomma, forse non avevano mai visto una chiesa’ dice ‘tutti lì a –’
CD: E tutti abbracciati, è vero [enfasi].
CR: Praticamente Giancarlo ci diceva addirittura – lui si ricordava, ti ricordi quella – insomma, la lezione qual era? Gesù e Maria salva l’anima mia –
CD: Io mi ricordo l’atto di dolore, perché l’atto era classico del pentimento, capito, ‘Prima di mori’, dice, ‘pentiamoci dei peccati –’
CR: E poi anche l’altra cosa che viene fuori in tutti è che la guerra finisca, cioè non c’era il minimo ‘Buttin giù tutto, venga giù tutto’ –
CD: Sì, sì, non c’era senso di coso. L’odio era per i tedeschi, perché effettivamente loro ci terrorizzavano: io mi ricordo l’episodio di quando i tede – di quando ci fu il capovolgimento, io ero in Via della Madonna e Pistoia rimase deserta perché i soldati scapparon tutti. Tedeschi non c’erano, però stavano arrivando e mi ricordo il povero onorevole Philipson in bicicletta che passava per tutta la città e diceva ‘Ritiratevi, scappate, i tedeschi sono a Capostrada’ [enfasi] e infatti appena arrivarono ne cinciaron [?] cinque, vero. Cominciaron quei maledetti bando numero uno, bando numero due, che era, guarda, da pelle d’oca, vero, perché mi ricordo quando sentii di’ che avean fucilato quelli alla Fortezza, insomma, fu una cosa che fece impressione, perché quelli erano proprio degli innocenti, vero, li presero così e via e, ecco, loro ti facevan paura e a quel punto lì noi s’avea più paura dei tedeschi che dei bombardamenti, perché poi c’era le famose retate. Io mi trovai – quel poer’omo di mi’ padre avea sessant’anni, lo portaron via, se noi un si fosse avuto un amico, il povero avvocato Manni, che avea una bella villa in Bigiano e lì c’era andato un gruppo di SS – però sa’, anche loro cercavano di tenerseli boni questi e avean fatto un po’ d’amicizia con questo tenente Scher – capitano Schefer [?] che si conobbe anche noi. Se non era questo capitano che l’andava a rilevare lui personalmente, quel poer’omo l’avean portato in Germania come ci portaron tanti, avea sessant’anni vero, ce lo vennero a levar di camera, io me lo ricordo perché dormiva – si dormia tutti in questa –
CR: Incominciaron [?] a prendere tutti gli uomini, sì.
CD: Io mi ricordo – ma poi che successe per esempio a Vinacciano: io mi ricordo la fila della gente che avean preso da tutti i casolari – perché li beccaron tutti, poi dopo ci s’era – anche lì ci presero alla sprovvista, perché un si sapeva che facevan queste cose, dopo ci siamo organizzati perché poi c’era un servizio sulle colline di vigilanza, mi ricordo il grido era ‘Ugolina’, quando qualcuno vedea – avvistava un tedesco comincia a di’ ‘Ugolina’ [enfasi] e allora gli uomini si nascondevano, ma quella volta ci presero tutti così e mi ricordo che c’era uno che per far finta di – si buttò in terra e cominciò a farsi veni’ le convulsioni, o poeracci quegli altri gli toccò anche caricarlo sul carretto e tirarlo e insomma un lo lasciarono mica lì, se lo portaron dietro e gli misero – che spettacolo [enfasi] – li misero tutti nella palestra Marini, a vede’ tutte le poere donne – noi fori a cercar d’ave’ notizie, a dagli un po’ da mangiare, anche il mio babbo c’era lì – un po’ da mangiare, un avean nulla, capito, dormivano in terra, anche lui era un omo di sessant’anni, un avea mia – vero, allora, insomma, quello era veramente uno spettacolo terribile, veramente s’è visto delle cose che nella gente non li riveda più, ma sai c’hanno assodato anche il carattere, vero, perché c’hanno abituato a tanti sacrifici, senza conta’ la fame che era –
CR: Nel dopoguerra, ecco, dei bombardamenti s’è continuato a parlarne, o no? O c’è stata una rimozione?
CD: No, secondo me c’è stata una rimozione, il fatto stesso che è avvenuta questa ricostruzione vuol di’ che la gente non ne volea più sentir parlare, volea volta’ pagina e ricominciare tutto, come ha fatto una poera Italia, ridotta, ciurmata [enfasi] in quella maniera dopo un po’ a rifiorire? Vuol di’ che la gente non l’ha più voluti ricordare e che s’era arricciata le maniche e ha detto ‘Seppelliamo i morti e via’. No, non c’è rimasto e anche – perché sembrerebbe strano, che po’ dopo quelli stessi che ce l’avean date legnate sode son stati quelli che c’hanno occupato e che hanno fraternizzato al massimo, perché nessuno di noi sentiva sentimento di odio.
CR: Quindi anche in casa non è che si sia raccontato? Ad esempio ai figlioli, raccontare l’esperienza?
CD: Ma io al mio sì, però sa’ a chi gli garba tanto sentir queste cose? Agli scolari, io quando raccontavo queste cose ai mi’ ragazzi d’Agliana stavano a sentire a bocca aperta. Tutta la fase della guerra è che noi, vedi, che s’è vissuta diciamo storicamente, non l’abbiamo mica molto chiara, io insomma – poi noi s’è vista sotto un’altra [incomprensibile] il fenomeno dei partigiani io l’ho vissuto in una maniera diversamente da come lo raccontano ora, io ho visto ben poco di partigiani qui a Pistoia e quel poco facean della [ride] – io mi ricordo, per esempio, io andavo a lezione dal professor Benedetti, ora io chiacchiero poi dopo – andavo a lezione dal professor Benedetti, noi s’era du’ ragazzini: s’era io e Ughetto Berti, du’ ciui che s’era bocciati e mi ricordo tutte le volte s’andava da questo professor Benedetti, dev’esse’ stato – era un antifascista e sicuramente era un partigiano, io ci trovavo sempre dentro il povero Silvano Fedi e Emiliano Panconesi che pissipissi, ‘Ma che stanno – loro son grandi, che ci vengano a fare?’ Invece probabilmente lì c’era un nucleo, perché io Silvano Fedi lo conoscevo molto bene, vero, ma proprio bene, l’hanno ammazzato vicino a Vinacciano, vicino a noi, s’era – me lo ricordo bene, però come forze di partigiani io mi ricordavo di Polverone [?] e di Abbo [?] che facean della confusione, ogni tanto – mi ricordo una volta avean trovato del grano i partigiani, allora ci misero noi ragazzine, devono [ridendo] aver sfruttato l’occasione perché allora bastava farsi rilasciare il certificato uno andava a posto e ci misero noi ragazzine. C’era, mi ricordo, il Petrucci, che anche lui dovea essere del movimento di liberazione e ci misero a pesa’ questa farina –
CR: Ma l’avvocato [?] Petrucci?
CD: Sì, sì, sì.
CR: È stato, sì.
CD: È stato, io me lo riordo, era lui un po’ – forse lui facea un po’ parte di Intellighenzia, ma non che ci fosse –
CR: Sì, era nell’Intellighenzia.
CD: Ma non che ci fosse dell’organizzazione, secondo me era di molto scompaginata, detto fra noi, perché poi tutte le cose fanno – poi in alt’Italia sarà stata – qui eran molto scompaginati, secondo me c’era qualche ragazzoto un po’, sai, fissato così, un po’ d’Intellighenzia che movea un po’ di fila ma molto vagamente, poi è venuta tutta fuori dopo insomma e poi c’ha messo a distribui’ questo grano. Mentre s’era lì ci vennero a – venne la notizia che in un bosco avean trovato uno impiccato e probabilmente era un partigiano, non s’è mai saputo chi l’avesse – se erano stati i tedeschi, perché d’intorno populava di tedeschi, vero.
CR: I tedeschi mi sembra strano perché di solito facevano in modo plateale.
CD: Lo facean molto plateale, sì.
CR: A Montale impiccarono tutti, ma nella piazza del paese, mettendo – ci fecero un bosco –
CD: Lo ritrovarono questo e quando fecero fuori Silvano Fedi me lo riordo bene, era proprio lì dietro dove si stava noi, sa’, io lo conoscevo bene, lo conoscevo da ragazza –
CR: Una morte [?] molto misteriosa. È rimasta una cosa abbastanza –
CD: Eh sì, per me è stata una fonte – è stata una grossa leggerezza secondo me da parte di loro, che loro hanno – hanno sfidato qualche cosa che non dovevano sfidare, stavan tirando un carretto con della roba sopra, vero, questi qui, lì c’è stato qualche – sì, non s’è mai saputo molto bene.
CR: [incomprensibile] molto misteriosa, sì.
CD: Il fatto che un bel ragazzo – un ragazzo in gamba come Silvano ci rimise le penne – questo m’è sempre dispiaciuto tanto, perché sarà che [incomprensibile] s’era giocato –
CR: Ma che tipo di ragazzo era? Come –
CD: Un donnaiolo incallito, gli garbava tanto –
AG: Perché era giovane.
CR: Era giovane.
CD: Bel ragazzo che era Silvano.
CR: Quanti anni aveva? Vent’anni?
CD: Avrà avuto vent’anni, spensierato di lanciano [?] e, insomma, era un ragazzo in gamba, però doveva essere forse lui – politicamente era impegnato e convinto, forse era un puro, io credo.
CR: Era di questo gruppetto del Liceo, era lui, Panconesi –
CD: Sì, Emiliano, poi chi c’era?
CR: Il Giovanelli [incomprensibile]
CD: Sì, Fabio Gio –
CR: Come si chiama? L’ingegnere Pier Giovanelli.
CD: Carlo?
CR: Carlo Giovanelli.
CD: Sì.
CR: Poi Fondi Fabio.
CD: Fabio Fondi. Io mi ricordo molto bene Emiliano, lo conoscevo molto bene Emiliano e poi ti dico, lui e quell’altro lo vedevo dal Benedetti, che non è mai venuto fuori il Benedetti, io non l’ho mai sentito rammentare, però era un uomo intelligentissimo [enfasi], professore di latino bravi – afflitto da una moglie cialtrona e da una trentina di figlioli che tu te li trovavi anche sotto le scarpe, poi si separò dalla moglie e andò a sta’ di casa – ti dirò dove, che io trovavo questo – questo gruppetto, in Via dell’Amore, l’hai presente dove c’è ora la Croce Verde?
CR: Sì.
CD: Ancora più avanti c’è – proprio all’angolo con la Via del T c’era uno stanbugioletto, c’era una specie di ingressuccio e uno studio dove lui ci dovea anche dormire, ecco, quando noi s’arrivava loro eran sempre lì nell’ingresso a fare questo conciliabolo e erano quindi – lì doveva nasce’ qualcosa probabilmente, ma io non credo nascesse poi tutto quello che hanno detto, perché c’era una grande disorganizzazione, ecco: noi per esempio non c’hanno aiutato niente loro, perché – anzi, in un certo modo ci facevano anche paura, perché erano questi ragazzi, tagliavano i capelli alle donne, insomma hanno fatto anche degli spregi.
CR: Ma quelle che avevano collaborato?
CD: Collaborato [enfasi], ma che voi collaborare? Anche noi si dovea collabora’ per forza, perché a un certo momento se tu l’avevi in casa –
CR: Anche a Pistoia ci son state queste forme –
CD: Sì, sì, sì, io c’ho avuto una mia amica, per esempio, che stava a Agliana e che l’hanno – lei diceva che era fascista, ma male – e collaborare – non aveva fatto male a nessuno, era fascista era, ma s’era un po’ tutti, guardi, io l’unica fotografia bellina che ho trovato è questa qui che è della mia mamma, questi – era a Vinacciano, guarda se è poco –.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Clara Dei
Description
An account of the resource
L’intervistata è Clara Dei, nata a Prato il 19 maggio 1927, insegnante elementare. Interviene l’amica Annalia Galardini. L’intervista è effettuata da Claudio Rosati a Pistoia, presso l’abitazione dell’informatrice, il 5 settembre 1983. La notte del primo bombardamento di Pistoia, Clara Dei scappò con la famiglia al rifugio di Via Franchini. Ricorda il timore per la vicinanza delle Officine San Giorgio, obiettivo militare. Sfollò a Gello, dove assistette a mitragliamenti e ai bombardamenti di Piteccio e Pistoia, e successivamente si spostò a Vinacciano affittando una camera da alcuni contadini: lì vi furono rastrellamenti e ricorda di aver visto l’arrivo dei sudafricani. Ricorda inoltre due aerei: “Pippo” e “La Cicogna”. Racconta poi della cattura del padre da parte dei tedeschi, che lo portarono alla palestra Marini; fu liberato grazie a un conoscente che era in buoni rapporti con un gruppo di ritenute SS in città. Infine, si sofferma sul periodo in cui andò a ripetizioni dal professore Aristide Benedetti; qui incontrava spesso Silvano Fedi ed Emiliano Panconesi e riteneva ci fosse un nucleo di partigiani. <br /><br />
<p>The interviewee is Clara Dei, born in Prato on 19 May 1927, primary school teacher. Also present was her friend Annalia Galardini. The interview is conducted by Claudio Rosati in Pistoia on 5 September 1983, in his house.</p>
<p>The night of the first bombing on Pistoia, Clara Dei ran with her family to the Via Franchini shelter. She was afraid because of the proximity of Officine San Giorgio, a military target. Clara was evacuated to Gello, where she witnessed the bombings and strafing of Piteccio and Pistoia. Then she moved to Vinacciano where she took lodging at the home of some peasants: Clara saw civilians being rounded up and witnessed the arrival of South African troops. She remembers two aircraft: Pippo and the Fieseler Fi 156 Storch. Father was captured by the Germans who took him to the Marini gym: he was then set free, thanks to the intervention of an acquaintance who was on good terms with local SS.</p>
<p>Finally, she describes the time when she was privately tutored by Aristide Benedetti; there she had frequent catchups with Silvano Fedi and Emiliano Panconesi. It was widely believed that the place was the headquarter of a Resistance cell.</p>
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MB CR 3 A
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1983-09-05
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Claudio Rosati
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Pistoia
Italy--Piteccio
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:30:39 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
evacuation
Pippo
Resistance