1
25
73
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/18/1559/LDarbyC1897788v1.1.pdf
fcd4a4bcfdac0e065595002419fce2ec
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Darby, Charlie
C Darby
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Charlie Darby (b. 1924, 1897788 Royal Air Force), his logbook, a poem and two photographs. Sergeant Charlie Darby flew 30 night time and daylight operations in Halifaxes with 466 and 462 Squadrons from RAF Driffield as a rear gunner.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Charlie Darby and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Darby, C
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Charlie Darby’s observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LDarbyC1897788v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Belgium--Saint-Vith
France--Brest
France--Calais
France--Le Havre
France--Watten
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Jülich
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Koblenz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Netherlands--Oostkapelle
Netherlands--Westkapelle
Germany
Netherlands
France
Belgium
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-08-24
1944-08-25
1944-09-09
1944-09-11
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-15
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-09-30
1944-10-15
1944-10-23
1944-10-29
1944-10-30
1944-11-02
1944-11-04
1944-11-16
1944-11-18
1944-11-21
1944-11-22
1944-12-06
1944-12-21
1944-12-26
1944-12-28
1944-12-29
1944-12-30
1945-01-02
1945-01-05
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Sergeant Charlie Darby, air gunner from 22 January 1944 to 16 January 1945. Charlie Darby was stationed at RAF Castle Kennedy and RAF Driffield where he flew Anson, Wellingtons and Halifaxes Mk 2 and 3. He took part in 30 night and daylight operations over Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands: Saint-Vith, Boulogne, Brest, Calais, Le Havre, Watten, Bochum, Bottrop, Cologne, Düsseldorf, Gelsenkirchen, Hannover, Jülich, Kiel, Koblenz, Ludwigshafen am Rhein, Magdeburg, Münster, Neuss, Oberhausen (Düsseldorf) Sterkrade, Opladen, Osnabrück, Wilhemshaven, Oostkapelle, Westkapelle. His pilots on operations were Flying Officer Evans and Flight Lieutenant Stuart. Operations include V-1 sites and army cooperation, with details on anti-aircraft fire, searchlights and attacks by Me 109 and Me 110
1658 HCU
21 OTU
462 Squadron
466 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Me 109
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Castle Kennedy
RAF Driffield
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Riccall
searchlight
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/18/1563/ADarbyC150630.2.mp3
da9e5105946763a779ff81714d32e118
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Darby, Charlie
C Darby
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Charlie Darby (b. 1924, 1897788 Royal Air Force), his logbook, a poem and two photographs. Sergeant Charlie Darby flew 30 night time and daylight operations in Halifaxes with 466 and 462 Squadrons from RAF Driffield as a rear gunner.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Charlie Darby and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Darby, C
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right, so my name is Chris Brockbank and I'm here to interview a gentleman on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre and the interviewee is Mr Charlie Darby and we've got here his wife Barbara as well and ably assisted and interrogated by Tony Lee their son-in-law.
CB: Okay Charlie it's running now, so here's Charlie Darby and please tell us about your life, Charlie.
CD: I'm Charlie Darby, I was born on the 26th May 1924 from a family of six boys, three girls and went through normal schooling. Went to work at fourteen [pause] er and when I became seventeen I was directed labour a government scheme that you had to fall in line with. If you didn't, there were two other choices: down the mines or prison. So, I took the job on which was at Mirdam [?] Ways, High Wycombe dismantling Churchill tanks. And I stuck at that for eighteen months and I just did not want to know any more about it [laughter]. So there was only one thing to do; that was to volunteer for the forces. And that's how I became to join the Royal Air Force. Now, having joined the Royal Air Force, or rather prior to that, I had to have an attestation which I took at Houston House, Houston Square in London. Got the result, I was passed to go into aircrew. Now, I waited my call up which came the 20th of September '43. I had to report to St John's Wood, London, for two weeks initiation. The same day of joining, I had to go down to Lord's Cricket Ground to get kitted out. And from there, I went to Bridlington ITW (Initial Training Wing) for eight weeks training. From there, number 3 EADS Bridgnorth, another eight weeks, from there, that was EDA Elementary Air Gunnery School. From there, to a place in Scotland, I don't know where they got it from but I was there. [background laughter] A place called Castle Kennedy. Never did see the castle. Eight weeks there was the AGS which I successfully passed and I was made aircrew and presented with brevet and I then awaited call to my next station which was Moreton in Marsh Gloucester, 21OTU and this is where we crewed up. There was one day we were assembled on this bit of green, [cough] and three officers came and approached us NCOs and my pilot, navigator and wireless operator were the three officers. And Les, my pilot, approached, we accepted and we found out afterwards: 'How did you do this, Les?' 'I went to each section and looked at your, your pass marks' and that's how he took judgement on us. Because we had our names on our breast and he knew where to go, he knew the names he was looking for. So therefore that is the way we crewed up. But, you never had an engineer, that came at a late a stage er at Heavy Conversion Unit. Which is what we did, er, [pause] yes just after that. But prior to that even, still in Yorkshire, we went to a place called Acaster Malbis and did a battle course. That was living rough, think that was the only, the occasion arise, you got adapted to it. Anyway, we went on to Riccall, near Selby, to 1658 Heavy Conversion Unit and did our first flying on four engines. And from there, we went to my operational station of Driffield where 466 was. Did er, training from there prior to operations [pause] yeah but-
CB: Okay we'll stop there for a mo. What I'd like to ask you to do please, Charlie, is to explain so we can understand what's coming next, how you were trained, so what happened at your initial training and in your gunnery training? So, how did that go?
CD: Dis-dis-discipline and er squad marching [pause] that it?
CB: Okay.
CD: Only two weeks of it.
CB: Right, then gunnery? So you had initial gunnery and then main gunnery.
CD: Initial training wing a little bit more extra started to pick up Morse code.
CB: Right
CD: That's something we had to know as a gunner to help the navigator. We had to know Morse at a simple rate of eight words a minute which was what occults and pundits flash at the rate of. A pundit flashed two red letters which were the letters of the aerodrome but an occult flashed one letter in white, that gave a navigator a bearing. So if you saw an occult flash, you called up your navigator and told him 'occult flashing so and so'. And then I guess I've got the bearing, we're not, we're about a mile off track. That sort of talk. Right then that it?
CB: And you're gunnery, so how did the gunnery training go?
CD: Very good.
CB: So what did they do initially?
CD: They started off with -
CB: Shotguns, was it?
CD: Yeah, yeah, started off with a point two two, a little pallet of a shot. At short range, yes, did quite a lot of clay pidge shooting, er, learning deflection. And from there, we didn't, we didn't go on to the main guns until we got to um [pause] er OTU. We were there on Wellingtons, oh may I add that, at this stage we haven't got a flight engineer. That came when we met with four engines, 'cause you didn't need a flight engineer on a Wellington.
CB: No.
CD: A pilot did all his -
CB: Yeah
CD: fuel changing. So we are now at Riccall on heavy conversion work. The normal day light, night time, cross countries, air-to-sea, air-to-air, firing and er -
CB: Were you firing live or with a camera gun?
CD: If we having fighter attacks you had a cine camera twenty-five feet of camera. And they assess you on the radical [?], on the film. To see whether you were on target or not. Er -
CB: And they had towed targets, did they? They had towed targets for you to shoot at?
CD: Yes the drogues I forgot that.
CB: Drogues
CD: I forgot that, I should have come up with that and erm -
CB: So that was live ammunition?
CD: Castle Kennedy, yes, at Castle Kennedy we were on Ans- I sh [?], I can't think of it all the time -
CB: That's alright, that's okay
CD: I can now, we were on Ansons, and an Anson took six gunners up at the time. And the one that sat next to the pilot wound the wheels up. Twenty-three turns, I might add. [laughter] Anyway, the drogue was towed by a Martinet, just above you, in front of you. So all you had level with you and behind was the drogue. Now, each gunner had a colour and the tips of those bullets for the space of two-hundred rounds I would think at the time, blue, red, etcetera etcetera. So if you were blue, they knew you were blue, bad aim [?]. And if you fired at this drogue, they'd count the number of blues and cut them in half, because it's going through the drogue, it's making two blue marks so it's gotta be halved. That's how they assessed how many hits you had. [pause] er this -
CB: I'll just stop you a mo. [beep] Right, so we're restarting now, with Charlie.
CD: I was -
CB: Johannson [?] wheels.
CD: At Castle Kennedy AGS and we were six to a plane. Six to an Anson. And the last one in sat next to the pilot who and then you had to wind the wheels up for him and [pause] I er, rather premature in that respect whereby I started to wind the wheels up far too soon for the pilot, not 'No no no!' he said 'I have not trimmed it yet'. By the way, he was a Polish pilot [laughter].
TL: Now carry on.
CD: And now, I finally passed the exam to become an air gunner and I went on leave waiting for posting to 21 OTU Moreton in the Marsh. This is where we crewed up, man-to-man, assembled on the grass. People approached one another, and that's how crews were formed. [pause] er less, a flight engineer, as you didn't need them on twin engines air craft. That was selected when you went to RCU - HCU - (Heavy Conversion Unit). The one we went to was 1658 Riccall, near Selby, Yorkshire. This was where my pilot selected his engineer, from thereon, we were fully crewed. Went on to four engine training, did the right exercises, then went from there to squadron. We were put to Driffield where 462 was, 466 was rather, beg your pardon, and in the time of pre-training operations, 462 came from out of the desert and reformed at Driffield. Ah, by the time we got operational, our first operation was with 466 and then, the time we come to our second operation, 462 was formed. Australian, yes, these were Australian squadrons by the way, and when we got through our second operation, 462 were ready formed up and started and we did our second op on their inauguration on the squadron. From there on, we did our operations. We did twenty-three in all on 462. And they were then posted down to Foulsham in Norfolk, on RCM work (Radio Counter Measures) which was in 100 Group. As we had only seven to do, they put us back on the 466, it wasn't worth sending us down there to do seven operations. They switched us back to 466, and there we completed our tour, which in January 1945. Now, the nitty gritty bit is, I ended up going into hospital halfway through my tour, which put me behind my crew. So, it eventuated that I had one trip to do at the time when my crew had done the last trip which was Hanover one the 5th of January. From there, I was placed on a battle order the next night with a crew strange to me by the name of Flight Lieutenant Stewart. And it was a hair raiser, [laughter] things like we were just set course, and one shouts to the other 'Throw the cigarettes up then, I threw them up last night!' Now, our pilot’d had gone beserk if we'd have smoked on an aircraft. With hundred octane petrol about, not good is it? Not good for life. However,[background noise] I managed to get through that operation [background noise] I went on these then I had to report to ACRC Catterick (Air Crew Receiving Centre) as we were being made redundant to be put on a ground staff job. Thus, what we did to the day I was demobbed.
CB: So, just going back now, to the HCU.
CD: Yes.
CB: When you're at the HCU, how did the programme go to create a crew that was operational?
CD: We did the right designated exercises to do, so many affiliations with the fighter, at night and day, to resemble an operation. Now, coming back to my initiation at squadron, we were on a cross country, a daylight cross country, which took us the last [pause] part of the er, cross country. We took a leg up to Belfast. We turn off at Belfast down to Fleetwood, near Blackpool. Well, we got to Belfast the while, the flight engineer said 'We're going down to the Elsan, Snowy' That was the pilot's nickname, Snowy. Okay, so we get down there and all of a sudden four engines cut. [laughter] 'Jock [?], where the hell are you?' [laughter] 'Down at the Elsan], Snowy', 'For Christ's sake, get back here soon! Sooner than that' he says. [laughter] We were icing up, because there were icicles on my gun that night outside, and everybody was getting to stations of bail out [background laughter]. We are now over the Irish Sea, heading towards Fleetwood, and Jock rushed back quick as he could and changed over and all the four engines picked up, just like that. In that time, all four engines had cut and we'd lost 5000 feet, fell like a tree. Everything righted itself. The explanation was for the engineer was he thought, he thought that the dials indicators were frozen. He said he checked them before he left his post but they were showing still fuel in the tanks but it wasn't so. [laughter] However, all was fair, we managed to get back to base, and that was the start of operations for you. That was a lift that, wasn't it?
CB: Now, were you mid-upper or were you tail-gunner?
CD: Rear. I was tail.
CB: Right, so did you come to choose that yourself?
CD: Well -
CB: How did you decide which position to be in?
CD: I favoured the dr- rear to be honest, and, we don't come on to operations. We are now, our second operation, the first on 462, was the flying bomb site at a place called Waddon [?] just the side of Dunkirk. And we did that one Friday evening and daylight. Succeeded with that, got to, I think, number seven. We went, we were designated to Kiel, U-boat pens , that was a night trip, very bad weather round the target area. But coming back we somehow had a fracture of the oil pressure. We're coming back over the North Sea and the pilot realises that he's got one wheel down and one up. The whole of the distance across the North Sea, he was up and down up and down with the good wheel hoping for something to happen. After about an hour, it succeeded. It dropped the good wheel and they both went back together and that was solved, just like that. That was Kiel. Now, we're coming now into September, we went to a place called Neuss in the Ruhr - N E U double S. On leaving the target, a hazy target as well because there were plenty of fires. Dead astern of me was this 1-1-0 or 2-1-0 it didn't matter, literally identical but for a small [inaudible] unrecognisable one from the other. Oh, I butted on here because, going back to my training, the instructor would always say to you 'traverse your turret'. Now after, between there and becoming operational, I sat sometimes and thought a lot. Now, if I'm round there, he could be coming from there, I can't see him. So, I decided in my mind, I'm just gonna sit there, and look. You pick things up and you cover a bigger area than you would by doing this. Because, by doing that, he could be there, it only takes seconds. You wouldn't know anything about it. So that's what I, I kicked that one out of the window and I always sat dead astern, looking dead astern, and looking for everything that's coming from those quarters, because that's where it comes from. And coming back to this, where I sighted this 1-1-0, 2-1-0, whatever, if I'd have done what my instructor had told me, I probably wouldn't be here now. To the point that I saw him, and I kept my eyes on him, and I had already informed the pilot 'prepare to corkscrew' it's gonna be port because he was dead astern of us and they're at our height [?]. So I let him get nearer, and then I gave the order to corkscrew which was to port. Now, there's one advantage there by going to port, it helped the pilot who was sitting on the port side, as he goes down to come back up, he can see going down and he can see going back up. Didn't fire, I always held fire because on your ammunition belt, every fifth bullet was -
TL: Tracer.
CD: Tracer. And with the speed of the guns firing eight hundred rounds a minute, that tracer becomes a red line and it immediately gives your position away. And that's one thing you should not do, give yourself away. [phone rings] You, you er, you er, [background noise] [pause] yes, you must not give your position away. I'm there to defend the aircraft, I don't attack, I only attack with bombs, so therefore, you do not [phone pings] put yourself in that situation by what they call firing in anger. I didn't believe in it and I never ever would but I never did it. And I think on those, on those terms, puts us on the right side of success. You getting through?
CB: This was in the night, was it?
CD: Eh?
CB: This was in the night this 1-1-0, 2-1-0 were coming at you.
CD: Yeah, at night, yeah. But in the day light totally different. They can see you, you can see them.
CB: Exactly.
CD: You adopt a different attitude then.
CB: Do you think he'd seen you?
CD: Hum?
CB: Do you think he had seen you?
CD: Oh yes, without a doubt. He had probably honed onto us. He was going that fast, it was this [pause] a matter of seconds, eight seconds, and it was all over. He never fired, by the way. So it just shows you how things happen so quick and once we did that, to start down on the corkscrew, it went, Dennis ran right us and said 'There he goes' I said 'I know Dennis I've been following him all the way along.' As we went down on the corkscrew, he went over the top of us. Now, my pilot comes up and we're in a bubble of corkscrew, I won't, I won't say the complete statement but he said 'Let's go back up and see where he is' I says 'You stop down here'.
TL: Or words to that effect.
CD: Plus a few more syllables. [laughter] Deathly hush, deathly hush because I chewed him. [laughter] And I, I'm now saying to myself, 'What have I said?' Sat in that turret thinking ‘I'm really heading for it now’. Not a word was said and between there and getting back to base, I made up my mind, if he doesn't say anything, then I won't. Let it just calm away. That's just what happened. Nothing was said. I think, I think, in a nutshell, he knew I was right. Well, I know I was right, because we were told in training, back in training, a pilot is always the captain of the aircraft but in a situation where you're under attack, he takes orders from you. That's why I did it, that's why I said it. But, having said that, I still, I still blinkering [inaudible], what am I heading for [laughter] because I could really have been brought upon the coals about this. But no, it petered out.
BD: You dropped your bombs.
CD: Yeah.
CB: What do you think was in his mind?
CD: Well, being a naughty, I think he being a bit of a daredevil. Or, he was making a joke of it. But it was the wrong time of day to make a joke! [laughter]
CB: So what other incidents did you have that were-
BD: What about when, when erm, chap shot the mid-upper, nearly shot you?
CD: Yes, I'm going back to pre-operation training-
CB: Right.
CD: At Driffield. After a daylight operation, beg your pardon, a daylight wide cross country, we had to go out into Bridlington Bay, do some air-to-sea firing at nought feet. He's shooting the foam to get deflection. He said, my mid-upper said, 'Do you want me to fire first?' I said 'Yes, okay Dennis' so he fired his five hundred off, he said 'I've finished now' and I went to go traverse round onto the beam to start mine, and I heard this zoom, and there's an on and off oxygen dial just slightly above my head to the left that hit that and went somewhere in the turret [laughter]. What was it? It was a cooked round from one of Dennis's guns. When the guns finished firing, they should always stop in the recoil position so they're clear of a round. So every time a breechblock goes forward, it takes a round with it up the spout of the gun. Hence, what they call a cooked round. The bullets in the barrel, the heat of the barrel sets it off. That's what happened. I did not fire one shot [background laughter]. It was straight back to base, to get inquiries on it. The gun, the gun was faulty. It er, it should have stayed at the recoil position but it just did not. Hence, the cooked round.
CB: So of the thirty operations you did, how many were in the dark at night, and how many were daylight? Roughly?
CD: Twenty-three daylight and seven night, I did.
CB: Other way around?
CD: No beg your pardon, that's wrong.
BD: It's the other way round.
CD: Twenty-three on 462, seven on 466. No, I did fifteen on each. Fifteen daylights, fifteen nights. At one stretch there I did ten in nine days I think it was.
CB: And how often did you have to use your guns?
CD: I didn't. I say, I did not fire in anger. I made my mind up on that one. This is the trouble with, I think, I may be wrong, but I think that by firing away willy nilly at something they got a hold on you. You see that tracer? Why expose yourself?
CB: What was the purpose of the tracer?
CD: If you were guidance. Give you, give you a guide to what you were shooting at. And, I would never, ever fire in anger. And I think, in my mind, I think that's where we lost quite a few aircraft. Not saying I'm right, but I would think it inclinates that way.
CB: How often were the aeroplanes hit?
CD: How many?
CB: How often were the aeroplanes hit by flack or fighter?
CD: Varied. I, there was one instance at a place called Bochum this was on November the fourth, fifth, where I saw one of ours over the target. It was on fire from wingtip to wingtip and it came to pass in the aftermath and later years that it turned out to be Joe Herman and with the descriptions that I know of now, that resembles Joe Herman's aircraft. The one where he finally went out last but it was blown out. The plane then blew up. I never saw the explosion, but I saw it from wingtip to wingtip. On our course, it wasn't spiralling out of control, it was still going along you know. But I can't keep looking all, too long, you've gotta look after yourself. So it was a question of just that and concentrate on your own, you know, it's, and that's what happened. It blew up. And it blew Joe out of the aircraft without a parachute. And, he went down, down, down, grabbing at anything possible. And he finally grabbed something and it was the legs of his mid-upper gunner on his chute. They went down together and they were talking to one another on the way down but he said 'Just prior to hitting the ground, I'll release myself' which is what he did, and he broke his leg doing it. Vivash [?] came out of it alright. And, er, but the others had already bailed out, they were the last two to go and Harry Nott the flight engineer was, he he was asked, told to put the fires out, the small one in the fuselage. Well, he did that but then the whole kaboosh was alight, wing tip to wing tip. So he bailed out and he hid in the forest for five days, eating anything he could put his hand to. But he decided to cross the Rhone [?] and that's where he was caught. He was made prisoner of war and the other three, four, Vivash and Joe heard gunfire. It came to pass over latter years but quite recently in this day that the, the blokes were shot by Gestapo. That was, one bloke was Underwood he was the bomb aimer, Wilson, someone else and, how this has all come about now whereby I've got young enthusiasts of 462 and 466 that have taken me up in the last two years back to Driffield and has encouraged me to go with them and tell them all the things that I've been telling you now. And Paul Nott was the great-nephew of Harry Nott the engineer on Joe Herman's crew. Now, Paul, as an enthusiast he is, he's a private pilot himself. He had this painting done by someone in Shrewsbury. He flew up and collected it. Went over to Aces High in Wendover and had it framed. And now he's got it hung in his office at Ascot. In my plane he's put above it between two searchlights because I told him I saw that plane on fire. It could onl- the description that he gave was identical to what I saw it could be no other. And that's how it's now become we're close friends with the Australians, Tiana Adair the lady. Her father was a pilot I think he was, and all these things of years gone by have all come together with someone being a relative of someone. And this is what has happened. I went, only this April on Anzac day (April the 25th) and we went to Driffield Gardens and we had the memorial which we dedicated in 1993 and Joe, Harry Arnes and myself, he's a prominent air gunner and he was on his second tour. Incidentally at Driffield he was on his second tour and I've met him twice since and last year we laid the wreath at the Gardens memorial and he came this year again but he had to get away quickly because he was going the next day to Drongen in Belgium to another parade. So, things went well. So the point, yes, it renewed our old way of living as regard being air crew in World War Two.
CB: So what was your pattern of living? What was the pattern that you went through? You got up in the morning.
CD: Yes.
CB: What happened?
CD: You went to, you went to your section and did a DI on your, on your turn (daily inspection). You cleaned your, you cleaned the Perspex with special Perspex polish to cut out all spots from the engine you get exhaust oil splashes the like and believe you me if you got any like that you think well that's an aircraft that one and that spot of oil on the air on the Perspex. So it was down to you to keep your turret clean. It's your vision, you rely on it. So-
CB: What about the guns?
CD: Yes.
CB: What about the guns? How did you clean those?
CD: You clean those with what they call four by two.
CB: Wooding?
CD: Yes, a cloth, like a flannel. You had a pull through. We cleared the flannels. Yes.
CB: So after the DI, then what?
CD: Well, you went back to section. And then if the battle orders come out, you look up and saw upon the jar the DROs and you destined. Report to briefing at so-and-so time. From there on things worked.
CB: What's a DRO?
CD: Daily routine orders.
CB: Right.
CD: Sorry.
CB: Okay.
CD: And each section line pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, went to their respective section, did a flight plan after briefing. And the gunners, engineers just sat and wait and report to parachute rooms at such-and-such a time. From there on it was on the, the bus to the perimeter track to dispersal point got up your aircraft. In my case, set my guns to fire. There's a fire and safe on each gun so you had to put it on fire, from there on hold it there.
CB: 'Cause you got four 303s you didn't have the retro fitter point fives [?]
CD: Yes I had round a minute they fire. So you got three thousand two hundred a minute. But you'd never fire it for a minute, just short sharp bursts. Yes, so-
CB: So what time would you normally be going on a raid? Did it vary a lot?
CD: Anytime. Any time of day, yes. Daylights. When we, when the, [pause] when the [pause] erm, the army was for-, going forward in France, we were always bombing the French ports because that was the last of the resistance from the guards, the German army, and they were really dug in, they were very hard to get out, suss out. And [background noise] to do a daylight, early morning, you were up at one o'clock, two o'clock. You were called by someone in the guard room came round your billet woke you up. From there on breakfast, briefing, the [inaudible], airborne, drop your load and back you come. Now, as I say, that varied, as my log book shows. Any time of day, any time of night. And I might add, every time we came back and entered the debriefing room, there was always that man stood there by the, by the tea urn [laughter] and the biscuits. And the station padre, no matter what time of day or night, he was always there. Something I noticed, it always sticks in my mind, how dedicated that man was. Yeah.
CB: How did the crews feel about that? How did the crews feel?
CD: Well about like, about the same as me I think. Such dedication, this, this is what went through all aircrew as well. You know, you had to do that to survive.
CB: What was your crew like?
CD: Very good, very good. My, especially my navigator, he was quite exceptional. And Tom, the wireless op, yes, good man. Lost him quite young, he was, he was the daddy of the crew. We were twenties and he was thirty-one. And he died when he was forty-two, back in '54. Terry and I and the bomber, we went to his funeral in London. Yes. And pilot, Les, he came over on two occasions. He was married to a New Zealand girl. He got married, lived in Australia, and his home town of Cowgill [?] Cowgill [?], yes. And she wanted to go back home, she couldn't stand the heat. This he did, [background noise] and when we went and met him on our fiftieth wedding anniversary, my son-in-law, daughter, two sons and two grandsons put us on an air ticket and we had two weeks in Brisbane with her cousin, the other two weeks in North Island New Zealand with Les my pilot and his wife. But sadly since then, they've both passed on, and my wife's cousin. And at that stage, we're now left with one two three four five. In turn, they've all died off to the point now that where there is only two of us. That's Derry, my navigator and myself.
CB: As a crew, what did you do when you weren't flying?
CD: My first and foremost job was and I did it every day like a nut, I used to write to her, yeah.
BD: Her?
CD: Every day. Can you imagine that? I think I should put it on a rubber stamp because it's the same old things I would say [laughter].
CB: We're talking about Barbara here.
BD: Yes.
CB: And what a lucky lady she was. [laughter]
CD: Yeah, well there you go you see.
CB: We're just going to stop for a cup of tea now.
CD: Okay.
CB: And pick it up in a minute. [Beep]
[At 50:20 there is a break and the recording seems to start again on another day]
CB: Right, my name is Chris Brockbank, listeners, and we're now on the 7th of July and we're with Charlie Darby and Barbara Darby and Tony Lee their son-in-law. And we're just going to pick up on where we finished up last time really which was the end of the war. And then we'll pick up on some other items. So, Charlie, we came to the point where the operations finished, what happened next? You'd done your thirty.
CD: After leave.
CB: Okay, so how much leave did they give you?
CD: Oh, there was about six weeks.
CB: Right. Yep. And then what?
CD: We then had a telegram to report to Catterick on ACRC [background noise] (Air Crew Receiving Centre) as we were going to be made redundant, they would issue us with a ground job. And, that was it. I went in on to a course called aircraft finishing which was a coating of paints and so forth, putting on [inaudible?] on aircraft. I went on a course down to Locking in near Weston-Super-Mare for that. And along came the end of the war. And from there on I just went from pillar to post, station to station, and things were never, did never happen as regards that course. So as I've told you earlier, we were just a person not needed.
CB: How did you feel about that?
CD: Well, depressing.
CB: Was all, were all the crew members together?
CD: No, no, we all went respective ways. My pilot is now already on his way home, all’s finished with him as far as that was concerned. The re-, Derry, the navigator, went to Morton in Marsh as navigation instructor. My other gunner, he went down to Wales-
CB: What was his name?
CD: On the bombing site-
CB: What was his name?
CD: Dennis.
CB: Dennis.
CD: And in the end, he turns up marrying a Welsh girl and that's where he stayed. And that's where he died, in Wales. Don, similar aspect, but then he went on the, the er Elizabeth Line.
CB: Was he the bomb aimer?
CD: No, he was the flight engineer.
CB: Right.
CD: [background noise] He went as a steward on the Queen Elizabeth and something else. Arthur, the bomb aimer, he went on a bombing site. He was sol- a practice bombing site. He was sole charge of that, somewhere up in the Midlands, and that just about covers it.
CB: And the signaller-
CD: The wireless op-
CB: Wireless op, yeah-
CD: I never did know what he went in to. And then, as I said before, shortly after that he died, not many years after this.
CB: He was the one who died - he was the grandpa of the crew and died at forty-two?
CD: Yes that's correct, yes.
CB: Right. Now, your rank when you were flying most of the time was flight sergeant?
CD: No sergeant.
CB: Sergeant.
CD: Sergeant.
CB: When did you become flight sergeant?
CD: About, it came in about a year's time, a step up.
CB: Okay. And then you became a warrant officer, when was that?
CD: Yes. That warrant officer, that was between '46 and seven. Immediately I got it, immediately they took it away. That sort of time.
CB: And put you back to what?
CD: Sergeant, basic sergeant.
CB: And what happened to your pay?
CD: Still the same.
CB: You still get flying pay?
CD: No, no. The rank of whatever.
CB: But the flying pay stopped when you stopped flying did it?
CD: So I. Yes. I think so.
CB: How much did you get paid? Do you remember?
CD: I think it's something like fifteen shillings a day. Something like that.
CB: And then the flying pay. How much?
CD: [Pause] Tough to say.
CB: Okay, doesn't matter. Now, going back to the early days-
CD: Adding to that, mind you-
CB: Yeah?
CD: We had a donater by the name of [pause] he was, er-
BD: Nuffield?
CD: Pardon?
BD: Nuffield.
CD: That's right, Lord Nuffield. He gave money to operational aircrew and you received that every leave you went on while operating. To the, to the tune of fifty shillings, something like that, every six weeks. And that fund is a trust fund still running today. Yes. I had the pleasure of meeting him once on the golf course up here at Flackwell Heath. Yeah, anyway that's another point.
CB: After the war?
CD: After the? No. No, during the war.
CB: Oh.
CD: It was on my first leave in '43. Amazing isn't it?
CB: Yeah.
CD: Then were we? I was on a ground job, yes, but it didn't materialise as I thought it was going to do. Like Dennis, Arthur, they had a distinct job of doing something on a bombing range. Well, that didn't happen as far as I was concerned. It just didn't have an end to it. I was in the end just doing silly jobs. You can't describe really.
CB: So how did they - when did they demob you? And what was the process?
CD: They demobbed me in '47, May '47. I had to go to Lytham St Anne’s near Blackpool where I was issued with civvy clothes and came home on leave, the something about leave, and then that stopped. In other words, go and get a job.
CB: So what did you do?
CD: From there, I went into Hoovers. Hoovers Limited. It was like engineering. In the time I was there in twenty years my, my bit of fire service experience before I joined up came to light again as they had a fire crew within the works and I was able to join that. Which is what I did.
CB: That was as an extra? Or full time?
CD: That was during the work time. Any fire on the building, you went to it at the same time the local fire engine was coming up. Yes. We were paid a, extra and they used us funnily enough to collect the wages every week. Down in the town, down the bank because we were insured as firemen so that allowed them to insure - to use that same insurance for us to go down the bank and collect the money. Every Friday, I had to wear a mackintosh. Along, along, a - with weather like this or even hotter, I had to go and pedal into work with my mate 'What the hell you got that mac for?' I says 'It might rain, you know?' I dare not tell him the secret was I had to wear a poacher's jacket underneath which held all the paper money. And we used to go down to the bank, the man used to taxi us, conveniently had his business right outside the bank where he drove out of and he came out. We could see him coming, we went out the door as he pulled up by the pavement and we go on in one movement and all way. It was all done. And people working next to me never ever knew what I was doing.
BD: Did I?
CD: I think I told you whilst I shouldn't have done.
BD: Ooh God.
CD: Yeah. [background noise] The money I've carried was nobody’s business.
CB: So, you worked there twenty years?
CD: Yes.
CB: So that gets us into the later 60s. What did you-
CD: ‘67.
CB: ‘67, what did you do then?
CD: I still kept in business when back to BroomWade where I did the tank work. I did precision grinding there. And then I moved to a small business in Beaconsfield, Oppermans, did work for Martin Baker. I told him [inaudible] for he had yet to see. And then from there, I went on franchise work, from the bakery, the local bakery. And he made me redundant. From there, I decided to set up myself, then I went painting, decorating. I went on a course created by Margaret Thatcher to encourage people to do that sort of thing. And I was tax-free for a year, wasn't I? I think.
BD: Forty pound a week.
CD: Something like that. And after a year, it stopped. But then I was, I'd established a little bit of a business, enough to keep me going. And this is what I did to the end of my working days. I was working right up to seventy-five, even longer I think.
BD: And now you've stopped.
CD: Even longer. And that was it. And now we're at this stage and I'm still working.
CB: Quite right. [laughter]
CD: They say when you retire, you'll be able to play bowls, yes [laughter] no way.
CB: Let's go fast backwards to when you joined.
CD: Yes.
CB: So, when you joined, where was it, and what type of people were there who joined with you?
CD: What, people with me?
CB: Yeah. To the RAF.
CD: Well, we were only there a fortnight.
CB: Yep.
CD: At St John's Wood. So you didn't get a lot of time to get personalised. Bit more introductory, check you out on your health. You had to see the dentist, he was the other side of Hyde Park [laughter] it's true.
BD: It must have been a big job for this.
CD: And did a fortnight there at St John's Wood, then went to Bridlington, ITW (Initial Training Wing).
CB: So, what sort of people were with you, were they all Brits? Were they people from abroad?
CD: Yes, all Brits.
CB: Okay. And what sort of backgrounds? Were they technical type people or office based or what were they?
CD: I wouldn't know to be honest.
CB: Right. So when you got to -
CD: Pretty general like me.
CB: Okay.
CD: Workers in the day.
CB: Yeah. And at Bridlington, then what? What were they like there? What sort of people?
CD: Well, as I say, a bit strict on the instructional side. But they have to be, don't they, to deploy discipline? Early morning start, 06:30 parade, it was very, very civilised. We paraded down by the Spa Hotel which was our mess deck, in other words. The ball- dance hall floor ballroom was the mess. And the theatre side of it was used for Morse code and semaphore flagging, flag and signals. If the weather was fine, would they use the beach. You stood at one end, and he stood the other, about a mile away, and you did your exercises there. Small arms fire, shop frontage people that have sold up or what and they've taken it over because they took over all the, all the boarding places for holidays. That were taken over for us to be housed in. And each course was sixty strong, you kept that sixty all the way through. And that was eight weeks there, seven day leave. Next place was Bridgnorth, number three EAGS. You did a bit of squarebashing there.
CB: So EAGS was gunnery school?
CD: Elementary Air Gunnery School.
CB: Air gunnery school. And what was the elementary training? Was that with shotguns or what was it?
CD: Yes, shotguns. You didn't get to the big stuff 'til later.
CB: So shotguns and clay pigeons?
CD: Clay pigeons, yes. We did quite a lot of that, especially at the next station, AGS. That was the one in Scotland, Castle Kennedy. And that's where you went for your rigorous- The main subject to think about was aircraft recognition. Because, if you didn't know your aircraft, you could be shooting at one of your own. So you had to, you had to know the characteristics of all aircraft and when you sat in the classroom, they would put up on the screen a flash of a sighting of an aircraft no matter what distance, not close up, never close up, and, a hundredth part of a second and you had to write down on a sheet of paper what it was. And you were told afterwards so that was a vital subject. It was before, it was placed before, learning the Morse code. You had to know your aircraft. It happened so many times, people had been shooting their own. Not by me! [laughter] Success at the end, having passed, as you saw in my log book, eighty-one point five percent out of one hundred. I finished third of the sixty. The remarks were above average as you saw.
CB: Yeah. Now, did some of the course of sixty not get through?
CD: Some, well, they, I don't know what they did, they just, they're not required for aircrew.
CB: That's what I mean, they weren't all selected for aircrew because they couldn't see or shoot. Was it?
CD: No, no. You went for that and from the word go.
CB: Right.
CD: Their testing found you out.
CB: That's what I mean. Yes.
CD: Yes. Sorry.
CB: Yeah. So, what I meant was, it was a very high standard-
CD: Yes.
CB: [Background noise] And some of the people didn't pass so they went to other jobs.
CD: Yes, for whatever, ground job, it’d be anyway. But one, one day, at the AGS I was called before the gunnery leader. I thought 'What the hell does he want?' Referring back to our last interview, I mentioned about firing at drogues, didn't I?
CB: Absolutely.
CD: And they recorded your hits by the colour of the paint on the tip of the bullet. Now, I was called before him and he said 'I've called you in,' he said 'because you've got an exceedingly amount of extra bullet marks.' I said, he said, 'What's your answer to that?' I said 'Well' quick thinking, I said 'Well, it can only be one thing, I'm must be nearer the drogue than I should have been.' And I said 'I'm not in control of that, that's the pilot's job.' 'Good answer,' he says and it ended like that. Now, I get pulled up, it doesn't make sense to me, I get pulled up for having too many hits. [laughter] Does that make sense? No. But that's what happened, that's what passed. He accepted what I said, but he had to, I had no other answer.
CB: What sort of range was the drogue being towed at from the aircraft you were in?
CD: Well, about one hundred yards I suppose, maybe a little bit more. It was always above you. The martinet was the one in front of you, it was a long tow rope for obvious reasons. [laughter] I'd be shooting the martinet down! [laughter] Yes, that's how it worked and the pilot of your plane, he did that. So you got more movement to make more deflection so it made it harder to hit the drogue.
CB: So, could you just describe what is deflection shooting?
CD: Well, deflection shooting is, you have two moving targets, the object and yourself. So, you've got to lay it off in front of the actual movement of the object. You never aim straight at it for obvious reasons. It's that. So you had to be in front of it and it goes into it. Now, the most common attack on an aircraft by a fighter is the curve of pursuit, what they call the curve of pursuit attack. From, from the b- er, the quarter, it comes in like that now-
CB: In a curve.
CD: You have to lay off your aiming point in the front of it, always. That is deflection.
CB: Right.
CD: And a good idea of that registering up there is doing a lot of clay pigeon shooting. Because, when they shoot those clays out, you've got to be in front of it, although you're stood still, your arms are moving. You've got to fire in front of it. There's no good aiming dead on it. You must - that's allowing the speed of the object and the speed of your bullet to be there at the same time. And that's how you register your hits. That's my term of deflection.
CB: So after you'd been at the AGS and passed that, you then went to the OTU?
CD: Malton in Marsh, after about a month's leave was a, a little [background noise] an extra for what you've done. We reported there, and after I suppose about two weeks we were all assembled on this big piece of green, some people went in hangars, and that's [background noise] where you selected your crew. Always the pilot, he was always the one that approached because he's the leader of the aircraft. And I say, he came, Les, the pilot, Derry, and Tom they were three officers. They came and approached us fellows who were stood all as one and Les, the pilot, as I said earlier, he went to every section and checked on the pass marks and the remarks of any individual and it turned - and it came to pass, he was looking for me because I'd got my name on there, everyone got their name on there. And Dennis, [background noise] because he'd been with me from day one, and Arthur the bomb aimer and that's where I met him and we were pretty close together there and it made it easy for Les. Well, he literally asked us all three stood together, if you get what I mean? Flight engineer comes into the, into the quota when we go on to four engines. Because on one engine, you didn't need a flight engineer. So, that was made easy by him, by doing what he did.
BD: Sorry.
CB: So Les had done an initial selection of his navigator -
CD: The crew, correct.
CB: And bomb aimer.
CD: Yes.
CB: When he came to you, he was an Australian.
CD: Yes.
CB: But, when you were in the hangar, he checked on the scores, you said, but he didn't know where the people came from, or did he?
CD: Well, yes, it would be English on your papers.
CB: So-
CD: Your service number would show that anyway. An Australian Air Force number was different to us.
CB: Because at that stage, they were, were they, Royal Australian Air Force, whereas originally, they joined the RAF?
CD: No, no they still come in as R double A F.
CB: They did?
CD: Yes. Yes. They came here with their Air Force number from Australia where they trained. Yes. Dennis, my other gunner, he came in with his ATC number. That started with 301, seven figures. Mine was 189, seven figures. I used to pull his leg, I says 'With a number like that, you want to get some in' [laughter] Yes. Anyway, I couldn't run that one too long.
CB: Just expanding a bit on the OTU before we have a break.
CD: Yes?
CB: You've now got the crew.
CD: Yes.
CB: Les has. When you started training, each of you is doing something different, so what were you doing as the gunner?
CD: Doing the exercises that was required. You saw in my log book, exercise one 'till three, whatever. Yes.
CB: So did they -
CD: Air-to-air, air-to-sea firing, pretty well the same as the other stations.
CB: Yeah.
CD: We were still on learning Morse and we were getting taught the essential aim of oxygen, why it's so specially needed. We were shown the proof of that by six of us getting into an oxygen chamber, compression chamber, the instructor outside looking through the port hole. And one of you not wearing the oxygen, the other five wearing it. Now the instructor would say this is the proof of what that oxygen does or if you haven't got it, it does it the other way. And we will show you now. And the man that hadn't put the mask on is now getting a bit dreary like. He said to the one sat next to him go to his pocket, take out his pay book. He looked down, he didn't, he didn't know he had taken that that log book. Afterwards, when they put him back on oxygen, and he'd come to his senses, and the fellow said 'Did you see him take anything from your pocket?' and he said ‘no’. That's, that drove it home, so essential that oxygen was. Now, [door creaks] talking on the oxygen side, we, especially at night, we always had oxygen on from the ground and going up. Normally, you can leave oxygen off up to ten thousand feet, but rather than make the contrast high up we did it at ground level. But you were okay without oxygen up to ten thousand feet, so they told us. But especially on operations you had it on, it comes on automatic anyway on four engines. With the, with the Wellington, you had this, this situation of get putting the oxygen on yourself, i.e. before getting into the turret there was a circle in, up here on the oxygen line and that had a cotton reel pushed in to close it off when not needed. [laughter] And that cotton reel is tied on a piece of string and you pulled the cotton reel up away and it just dangled and you then got the flow of oxygen. Then in the turret, you got on off tell tale. But one night, we were on a cross country and after about quarter of an hour I'm, I'm feeling, I'm a bit, I'm a bit drunk - a drunkenness had appeared you know? Light headed. And it suddenly dawned on me I hadn't pulled that cotton reel out before I got in the turret. Honest. I'll letcha go. So when he opened the door and pulled out I came round. None of the others ever knew, I just didn't bother to tell them, would have felt ashamed to. [laughter] And one, there was one exercise we had it was called a bull's eye. It involved, it was on Bristol and Derry, we had been together now what, a week I suppose, green horns, and it came to pass we got there and it was all over Derry was about quarter of an hour late. And that worried him stiff. ‘Derry boy’, the nav leader said to him 'Go and have a good drink, Derry, don't worry about it.' And from there on, Derry used to have his half a pint because he never drank before he met us. He was a lay preacher, he'd been a lay preacher for fifty years after that [laughter] but he liked his drop of sherry. [laughter] So I bought him a bottle when we left. And yes that was it, we were too late for the bull's eye. And then from there, we're going on up into the Yorkshire area now. We had to do a f- two weeks at a place called Acaster Malbis about three miles outside York. It wasn't an aerodrome it was just a plain battle course training. They took you out in the day, live it rough. One night we went out, we had the choice, we stopped at a farm, we had the choice: sleeping in the barn or under the far wall. It was a nice hot day, like one last week, not as hot as that but it was a hot day, so we proposed, [laughter] we proposed to lay under the brick wall with our ground sheets. [unclear] in the barn, went down the pub, had a couple of drinks, came back, slept under the wall, woke up the next morning, oh that bloody great cob horse stood over the top of us [laughter], oh dear. The things that went on. Did that a fortnight, then we went down the road, not far, to a place called Riccall 1658 HCU (Heavy Conversion Unit) and that's where we picked up with our, Les had a choice of flight engineer. Which is what he did. Got together, now we're now fully at strength, seven personnel starting on four engine aircrafts. Going through all the courses again, exercises, cross countries, day and night, fighter affiliation, mock attacks. Used to do that with cine camera, twenty-five feet cine camera. And then, as I say, cross country. We did, we did one and it took us up, I told you before I think, it took us up to Belfast, and the next leg back was to Fleetwood and from Fleetwood over to base, straight across. And we got to Belfast, Jock, the engineer says 'I'm go down to the Elsan, Snowy.' Okay, we barely got down there before all four engines cut. We were at freezing alt - we were icing up, had icicles that long on my guns. Daylight, cloudless sky, yeah, eighteen thousand feet, icing up. He just about gets down to the Elsan to do his necessary and they cut. All four engine cut. 'Jock where the [pause] are you?' 'I'm down in the Elsan, Snowy.' 'Well for Christ's sake get back here quick as you can' [laughter] Back goes Jock [inaudible]. He switches his tanks over and then all four had picked up just like that. But, in the meantime, we had dropped five thousand feet. Fell like a tree. Twenty-five tonne of aircraft, won't stay there, will it? [laughter] So, we were all prepared to ditch because we were over now over the Irish Sea but it didn't have to happen. Eventually got back. [background noise] On another occasion, we did a cross country, we had to go out into Bridlington, Bridlington Bay and fire air-to-sea. From Bridlington to base it's probably about twelve miles, so, nothing, just- And Dennis fired his five hundred first, he said 'I'm finished now', I said 'Okay' and I went to swing round to, to port beam, port quarter rather, and I heard this zutt. I looked up there and there was the mark, the bullet's gone I don't know where. Left me in a state of [laughter] 'What's up?' they said, I said 'For Christ's sake, something’s gone wrong here.' And it came to pass on me that Dennis, one of his guns was faulty [background noise] it stayed in the forward position. When going forward, it takes a round on the face of the breechblock into the, into the [background noise]
TL: Barrel.
CD: Barrel [laughter] into the barrel, hence, the heat of the barrel ignited the detonator the pull it [?]. Should I have gone onto the beam a fraction earlier it could have been - we marked it on getting back to base, it could have been anyone there. It was there, you see. Because it went round with the turret, it [pause].
CB: So on that -
CD: That was the obvious conclusion of it.
CB: Right.
CD: And it was called, commonly called, a cooked round.
CB: Right. So when you landed, the ground crew then-
CD: Well, we were notified then what had happened, and little doubt had then to recti- probably the recoil spring on a rod, it was a long rod like that, and the recoil spring was over it. It's probably that that snapped at the. You see, a browning [?] gun can fire eight hundred rounds a minute, for a solid minute which you never did fire a solid minute. But that was the rate of of shot. So it [unclear] the mechanism, it's amazing how it works at that rate of knots. And well you can think of many things I suppose, it's probably more technical than what I can think it can be to suggest yes that did it. But no, no-one came back to us so we assumed its righted itself in their knowledge.
CB: I think we'll take a pause there, because you've done well and we'll start another track in a minute.
CD: Yeah my tongue tells me that.
[Beep, background noise]
CB: Right, we're restarting after our tea break. And what I'd like to ask you to do please, Charlie, is to talk about a raid. So, how did you prepare the raid and, the sortie, how did it work?
CD: Well, you were first brought up on battle order, then you knew you'd got to go and do so-and-so so-and-so, then the respect of pilots, navigators, bomb aimers. After briefing, which we all went to, after briefing, they went to their respective sections and did their flight plan. Other people like the flight engineer and gunners you just sat and waited because you had nothing to do until you get to the aircraft and then you prime your guns ready to fire in action if any. You went for operational meal, then to briefing, then to respective sections and wait for take off time. In that time, ground staff are loading up with bomb, required bomb load, to each aircraft. You go to parachute room, collect your chute, empty your pockets and wait for the liberty bus to take you to your respective aircraft. Get aboard, do your pre-flight checks, pilot so-forth, gunners, breach your guns up, put them on to fire, when you press the slot to put them on safety, you get airborne and you put them back on to fire, and you were ready for any action, if any. Some occasions, it was a straightforward flight, on other occasions completely opposite. Lone situations and situations you can see from other aircraft but you never ever know what is the problem but you saw it happen, you know what I mean? I.E. the one about the Lancaster. Coming off from the target, a gas incursion. It was flying very strangely, it was veering here and there which gave it the impression there was something wrong with the works. I.E. the rudder for instance, I don't know, it's pure guesswork. There was no smoke, no flame, this this was the foxing part of it all. Anyway, it suddenly went up and over onto its back, and went down into a dive, and in that time, four parachutes came out, unfurled. And went further down and not much further it just disintegrated [?] no explosion whatsoever. It just, just fell apart. Now on the chutes, shown so, it guess the ultimate. On another occasion, the one on Bochum, where I saw Joe Herman's plane, that was alight from wingtip to wingtip. It was still on course, still able to go, it was below us, but still with us, and I had to take my eyes off him because I've got to look after my aircraft, our aircraft, so there wasn't much chance to sit and gaze. So therefore, I never saw the explosion which happened. Three, four, four of the crew have already bailed out. This is in the aftermath, it's all in the squadron book. Harry Nott, the uncle, the fellow I know and recently Paul Nott, his great nephew, who lives in Hartford, he's one of the enthusiasts of the squadron, young enthusiasts, and it tells you what really happened when Joe went for his chute. The plane exploded. It blew him out the aircraft, and he just floating down, grabbing at anything that he could put his hands to. Suddenly, he grabbed this fella, his mid-upper I think it was, he grabbed his legs, and they both went down together on the chute. They arranged it, prior to hitting the ground, that he would release himself from his legs to lessen any dead fall. And they did that, but in that throw, he broke his leg, Joe, the pilot. Anyway, he got, he got the piece of the parachute and Vivash had got an injury to his ankle. He rips some of the parachute up, and wrapped it round his foot but then they decided they'd got to give themselves up, he couldn't try to escape with a broken - he broke a bone up here as well as one in his leg, so they were forced to give themselves up. They heard gunfire and it came to pass that, they found it out since the war, one of, one of the, it must have been a farmer, he had a horse and cart with one of the crew on it. He was injured. I think it was the bomb aimer, it wasn't the bloke called Underwood, Australian. And in the presence of I think there was an army bloke, a German army bloke, and up came a Gestapo. And he didn't mince his words whatever, he just pulled out his gun and shot Underwood. That is the glowing report from the farmer with the horse and cart. They, those two, heard gunfire so went seems the match what really happened. Yeah, there's four of them who were eventually in one cemetery from that particular instance, incident. [pause] Others, there was one after we'd finished our operations. One was coming in at Driffield one foggy morning in April '45. It was on the circuit over at Kirkburn Grange which was a farm right on the circuit of Driffield. He went round and he asked permission again because it was thick fog and they requested him to go to Carnaby just up the road, ten miles up the road, to a crash landing site. He said 'Well, I'll give it another try.' He did. At this farm, there were cops of about three hundred yards, and narrow too, about three hundred yards long, and he hit that, ploughed right through it. Right by the farm house. And the present farmer in '83 was the son then. He was five years old and he didn't know a thing. That plane exploded, what, just at, about fifty yards from the house. We went over there on the '83 reunion, in a cab [?] of cader [?] cars and the squadron leader Riverton [?] he went with us and he took the Halifax book and presented it to the farmer. He wondered what was happening I think. Coming there was [?] about six or seven car loads of us. [Laughter] Anyway, we went to the site and I took a photograph of it from memory out of the book. And I wasn't far out. I leaned over the hedge of the ploughed field and I took that photograph and it was as I say as near as I could get it. But I've loaned the book out to someone with that photograph in it and I can't think who. No, that won't have gone [?]. If he'd have taken the orders right, and accepted from the control tower go to Carnaby things would have been different. But no, he wanted to do it again. Inexperienced pilot apparently, and he got people on there with DFCs, people on their second tour no doubt. [background noise] It just blew into pieces. [pause] I told you the one -
CB: Any other trips you remember when you were doing the bombing of Northern France for the flying bombs?
CD: Yes. What?
CB: What height were you and what sort of experience did you have with those?
CD: Well, that was only our second one you see and I [laughter] erm [pause] there was - it didn't happen in our squadron, but we got to know that one of the aircraft on that raid, one of the crew, must have been the engineer I would think, he's the only one who seemed to walk about, and he lifted the, the inspection panel to look and see the bombs go. It - he unscrewed the panel, got down on his knees and looked down through and a piece of shrapnel hit him in the throat. The thing, hard luck story there to the point, you're going about two hundred miles an hour and something comes up through a hole about that big, and hits you in the throat. It, now, that was the crew, it wasn't on our squadron but we got to know about it. There's another incident you see I would never ever have known about it other than getting it from our people. And [pause] that's encouraging [?]. One of those two days that we did, went there consecutively, I forget which one it was but turning, we had to turn round onto the target. And I looked round to see where we're going and this block barrage it was like that just a solid black wall of flack. At our height, dead heights, and I said to myself 'Christ we've got to go through that?' Only we did, somehow. I have said to Les the pilot afterwards he said 'I just climbed above it.' Well I didn't know that at the time you see, still had flack going around you at various heights but this block barrage, well it was just like looking at that screen. It was a massive black wall of flack bursts. I don't know how many guns had to do that, probably about fifty rapid firing. I don't know, pure guesswork. But, that was an incident and I, I don't know whether that was the same one when I saw that Lancaster do what it did because we went there two days running, yes. Seventy years ago it's tough to remember what day it was so. That was that incident. [Pause] er.
CB: Which did you prefer, flying at night or flying in the day?
CD: Well, safety wise, well obviously day light. Because when these turning points as I was saying in that Bockholme one that Bockholme bay was seven-hundred and forty-nine aircraft. And you all, you're all converging on Aufitnez [?]. You're all coming at different angles so, I had it written down here. [pages turning] [pause] First turning point whereby all aircraft were coming in at all angles to turn off onto the next heading. [cough] Incidentally, all navigation lights are turned off so you're in a complete darkness which helps towards a hazard. Within our crew, we found an idea to help to overcome this. Derry, our navigator, would call up and notify us, the gunners in brackets, ten minutes before turning point and ten minutes after the turning point. This about covers the time it takes [cough] seven-hundred and forty-nine aircraft to pass through. We, you could do a raid of a thousand bombers in a quarter of an hour over the target. So that ten minutes each side of that turning point served a good purpose. [background noise] But there was this raid where I saw two aircraft collide at the first turning point, Orford Ness .
CB: And what happened to them?
CD: Well, they just hit one another and that was the end of the story. Just a vivid blue flash.
CB: Oh was it?
CD: And a black pall of smoke to follow.
CB: You couldn't see-
CD: Joe Her- incidentally, Joe Herman saw that same one. That happened just off the North, from Orford Ness in the North Sea. Yeah.
CB: So you didn't see them before they collided, just the explosion 'cause it was in the dark?
CD: No no no it was just above us too.
CB: Was it?
CD: So you wouldn't see it above us.
CB: No.
CD: No, you couldn't help but see it. Just a blue flash.
CB: Yeah. So if we go forward a bit, you've now completed the sortie and you've landed. What happened next?
CD: [background noise] You go to debriefing. First person you saw, and always saw every time no matter what day or night was the Padre, the Station Padre. He was stood there just inside the door with the tea urn and the biscuits. And welcomed us back. And then we went and sat in our crew at one table, crews at another table, [background noise] and you systematically interviewed and told what you saw, [cough] things happened. The navigator was always logged in so as, right that aircraft went down at so many degrees east or whatever. And the others gave their remarks and that was it. You went down to the mess had a return meal, no matter what time of the morning or night. From there to bed.
CB: Was it as standard meal, you always got something?
CD: Egg, bacon and chips. [laughter] Yeah, egg, bacon and chips.
CB: Okay.
CD: Some used to craftily get in there and get a meal and weren't on operation. They, they sussed that one out. So the WAAF behind the co- the hot plate, had a list of all the crews that were in operation and they used to ask you your name and if you weren't on there she didn't give you a meal, which is fair enough. How other way are you going to defeat it? And that's not all they did, tried to do, they did until they found it out. Yeah.
CB: So you've had your debrief, you've gone to bed, how long were you allowed to rest or sleep for before you had to do something else?
CD: We, you just got up and if it was too late a day to go and do a daily inspection then you didn't do it. You were probably on battle orders again the next night. I'll give you an instance, [background noise] they were very, the discipline to help the individual himself rather than not break his morale, they let discipline slide a bit. Whereby there was none of this saluting when you passed an officer and all that, as it was in training. I remember once in training at AGS, Dennis and I were walking up to the section and there were two officers coming down the drive. I says 'We'd better sling them one up, Dennis.' 'Oh, bugger him' he says, 'Bugger him' he says. I went up and he didn't. He got seven days [laughter]. 'That's alright for you.' I says, 'All you had to do, Dennis, was that.' Anyway, we came back to twelve noon again, and then, simple as that. That's strict discipline, that, you see and that, that didn't occur in- I'll give you the instance why. We had a billet inspection by Wing Commander Shannon, Dave Shannon, and we're all stood at the end of the bed, waiting for him and his entourage to come in and inspect, and Bob Elliott, the Canadian, he was in that far corner and he's still in his bed, he'd been on ops the night before. So immediately Shannon went straight over to him you see and he woke him up. [laughter] Elliott went like that on his poliasse, paliasse rather, 'What're you doing on that bed?' he said, 'I was on ops last night, sir', Oh well, alright, well get up and sweep this bit of bed fluff up.' [laughter] That's all that happened. Now, if he'd have done it the army way, he'd have blown the bloke to hell, wouldn't he? So they never, they never inclined to go down that road. In the army, his feet wouldn't have touched the ground. You know that. He'd have been in the glasses. But no, he just laid him back there 'I was on ops last night, sir.' 'Well alright, get on and sweep this bed fluff up.' I was stood down the other end, yeah, heard it all. That, that was the sort of discipline on the squadron.
CB: 'Cause we're talking about-
CD: We had to be at a level otherwise you'd have broke, you'd have broken up-
CB: Yep.
CD: You know what it is.
CB: Yeah.
CD: I don't have to tell you, do I?
CB: So, the accommodation is an H-Block.
CD: Yes.
CB: At Driffield.
CD: Yes.
CB: So that’s real comfort, relatively.
CD: Yes.
CB: Then you go to Foulsham, when did you get there?
CD: I remember, Nissen hut, wasn't it? I've got an old photograph of it in that other book, pimpernel book.
CB: Was that, what was the condition of that like? Comfort?
CD: Well Nissen hut, you had that all the way up in your training. [pause] I had a tortoiseshell stove and a mirror on the hut [laughter]. I always picked the bed away, yes, picked the bed away from there because they would all sit along the edge of your bed near the fire. [laughter] So I kept well away. But, oh, I had an incident at Bridgnorth. There was this farmer bloke, he was a farmer really, all Gloucestershire boy, you know. And he'd been out and had a few and he came back I was, I was half asleep I just got into bed. I hadn't been out. I never ever went out anyway, I was always religiously learning up, swotting up all the time. Plus, the letter writing, it all takes your evening up, doesn't it? So, I got into a habit. I never ever went out. Anyway, this night he comes back a bit worse for wear and I think he had a bit of encouragement from others and [background noise] he came and tipped my bed up. What does one do? I got straight up and hit him one. Only hit him once, honest to God, yeah, yeah. 'Oh uh buh' [?] he went, I thought 'Yeah.' I had every right, didn't I? And he had my left. [laughter] That was one of the incidents.
CB: What was the food like in general?
CD: Pretty good. Yes. Pretty good. Another, another incident there at Bridgnorth, you remember that advert, Chad? It was a head looking over a wall and a long nose hanging over the wall. Well, our, our instructor was a bloke called Firth, and he was, he was Jewish and he'd got just one of those conks you know [laughter] and in the ablutions up over the taps was: 'Beware, Corporal Cashew watching you' and that he was Corporal Cash, beware Corporal Cash is watching you pissing [[laughter]. Nobody was ever pulled up, what could they do about it?
CB: Banter.
CD: Another instance, going back off a weekend leave to Locking [?], Weston-Super-Mare, we always used to-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Charlie Darby
Description
An account of the resource
Charlie Darby joined the Royal Air Force in September 1943 and recounts in great detail, his training as an air gunner/wireless operator on Wellingtons and Ansons at RAF Bridlington, RAF Bridgnorth, RAF Castle Kennedy, RAF Acaster Malbis and RAF Riccall. He explains how he crewed up at 21 Operational Training Unit, RAF Morton in the Marsh, before being posted to RAF Driffield with 466 Squadron, where he served as a rear gunner. He recounts operational experiences, including an operation to Bochum. He discusses discipline and living conditions. At the end of the war he was transferred to ground work and moved between a number of stations before being demobbed in 1947. He worked for Hoover and other companies before setting up his own engineering business. He recalls what happened to his crew after the war and his participation in the unveiling of a memorial in Driffield Gardens in 1993.
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-30
2015-07-07
Contributor
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Bethany Ellin
Heather Hughes
Format
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01:57:04 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADarbyC150630
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Bochum
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Atlantic Ocean--Irish Sea
England--Orford Ness
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
100 Group
1658 HCU
21 OTU
462 Squadron
466 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
demobilisation
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
memorial
military discipline
military ethos
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Acaster Malbis
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bridlington
RAF Carnaby
RAF Castle Kennedy
RAF Driffield
RAF Foulsham
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Riccall
sanitation
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/PLarmerLO1507.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/ALarmerLO151112.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Larmer, Lawrence
Lawrence Larmer
Laurie Larmer
L O Larmer
L Larmer
Description
An account of the resource
17 items concerning Flying Officer Laurence O'Hara Larmer (1920 - 2023, 430037 Royal Australian Air Force). Lawrence Larmer volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force and trained in Australia and Canada. He flew operations as a pilot flying Halifax with 51 Squadron from RAF Snaith. The collection consists of one oral history interview with him, wartime photographs of aircraft, aircrews and targets, his logbook, route maps, and an official certificate.
The collection was donated by Laurence Larmer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Larmer, LO
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive is with Laurie Larmer 51 Squadron, Halifax bomber during World War II. Interview taking place at Laurie’s house in Strathmore in Melbourne. My name is Adam Purcell it is the 12th of November 2005, 2015 in fact. Laurie we might start with an easy one, can you tell us something about your story before the war growing up what you did, before you enlisted?
LL: I was born in Moody Ponds eh in 1920, September 1923 and eh in 1931 or ’32 an old uncle of my father’s, my father was a painter and paper hanger by trade, during the depression there was obviously not that much work about but eh he managed and in 1931 or ’32 an old uncle by marriage of his died and he owned a hotel in South Yarrow and he left in his will that dad was to be given the lease of this hotel at a certain rental for as long as he wanted. So eh dad without any experience in the hotel business eh we moved into South Yarrow on the corner of Tourag Road and Punt Road and eh he ran this hotel until the old aunty the widow eh realised that the rental had been set in her husband’s will and she couldn’t do anything about it. So she did the next best thing as far as she was concerned, she sold the hotel. My father then moved to another hotel in Prahran and eventually in 1935 he went to a hotel in Ballarat and I went to school, St Patrick’s College Ballarat and I stayed there until I finished my schooling in 1940 eh in 1940 eh I got a job in the Department of Aircraft Production at Fishermans Bend where they were building the Beaufort bomber. Not on technical side, eh in the pay office actually I saw a lot about aeroplanes and what have you and eh in September 1941 I got called up for, I turned eighteen and got called up for a medical examination and eh it was for the army but to avoid going into the army you could volunteer for the navy or the air force. I volunteered for aircrew in the air force and was accepted. Did another medical exam, much stricter medical exam for the air force, aircrew actually, naturally and eh I then went back to work at Fishermans Bend until I got my call up sometime in 1942 and I went into the air force. So that is my pre-service history.
AP: Actually I might close that door if we can ‘cause it is noisy outside [pause] still there but it is not as loud. Okay where were you and how old were you when you heard war was declared and what were your thoughts at the time?
LL: I was, we were at Ballarat on the 3rd of September 1939 I was not quite eh not quite sixteen. I turned sixteen I turned sixteen a couple of weeks after the war was declared like most people I thought or hoped that the war wouldn’t last long and that I wouldn’t be affected. We were so far away that eh it all seemed a bit remote as far as we were concerned. And I certainly didn’t anticipate at that stage. I knew the talk was that kids of eighteen would be called up and I knew then or I thought then, the war would be finished before eh I got eh called up, but it was not to be.
AP: I guess you covered why you joined the air force based on some sort of experience with aeroplanes em why did you move in that direction in some sort of with aircraft. Was there some sort of inspiration that this was going to happen ?
LL: No I think that, I didn’t want to go into the army, the army just seemed to walk everywhere eh the eh hand to hand fighting didn’t sort of attract me. The navy didn’t attract me, I think there is a sort of glamorous feeling about the air force at that time. The Battle of Britain had just been fought and won and the eh airmen were eh I don’t know just a little bit different, and they seemed to just attract me a bit more than the other services.
AP: Can you tell me something about the enlistment process, were there interviews or tests or how did that all happen?
LL: The tests for the army of course was fairly simple, as long as you could stand up and breathe they accepted you for the A
army and that was only for home service. The fellows who wanted to go overseas volunteered for the AIF the call-up was actually for the militia because we didn’t have compulsory service for overseas, eh compulsory callout for overseas service. Eh the air force medical was much stricter, I always remember it was done in eh a place in Russell Street on the corner of Little Column Street were where Preston Motors were for many years after the war [cough] and eh we had eye tests which were particularly hard, they tested your heart and your blood pressure and all that sort of business which seemed a bit unusual for young fellows of eighteen, sixteen, eighteen we were at the time. I passed that and there was a delay of course of some months till they caught up. We were then to be trained under the Empire Air Training Scheme. That was sometime before I was called up, and I actually didn’t go into the air force until December 1942 so it was about twelve months after I volunteered for the air force I got my call-up to report to the service.
AP: Was there anything the air force gave you to do to sort of maintain the interest.
LL: We had to do school, night school, I went to the Essenham High School for two nights a week for about eight or ten weeks eh and we did maths and a few things like that. I can’t recall all the subjects we did, it wasn’t a matter of doing exams or anything. It was just to refresh us from our school days. Did a bit of geometry and angles and things like that, probably preparing us for navigation.
AP: Did you find that sort of training useful, did it help you when you got to your initial training school?
LL: It must have helped at initial training school. I was pretty good at maths even although I say so myself. This always confused me, I was never able to explain it. Two months, after two months at Summers which was the initial training school eh they came out one day, we were all there, they said ‘The following will train as pilots’ and they read a list of names. ‘The following will train as navigators’ they read a list of names and eh ‘the following will train as wireless operators’. And the balance for gunners. How they picked us I don’t know. I can only assume I must have done very, excellently, excellent at maths and those sort of things. Those picked to train as pilots and navigators stayed at Summers for another month. We did a bit of navigation and meteorology and a few things like that. But I, so I think that going back to school, the night school probably helped to refresh an interest in these subjects and it obviously paid dividends as far as I was concerned.
LL: What memories do you have of Summers, of ITS what was a typical day, what things did you do?
AP: Eh a lot of it seemed a waste of time we both knew an aircraft, they didn’t talk about an aircraft, they talked about Morse code and that was terribly important, I couldn’t take a word of Morse code couldn’t take a letter, I couldn’t understand it. Then a couple of nights later, the Aldis lamp I couldn’t even see that, it didn’t register at all. There was no way I was ever going to be a wireless operator and it wasn’t because I wasn’t trying, I just could not, couldn’t get the dots from the dashes in the Morse code. We seemed to do a lot of marching and eh, it was probably very necessary teaching us air force rules and regulations and all that sort of business. After a while you would say, ‘when am I going to see some action, when am I going to do something, when am I going to learn something about flying?’ Particularly once you had been charged to be a pilot you wanted to get on with it. Instead of that we did an extra month eh and then after that extra month I was posted to Benellah.
AR: Benellah was the– ?
LL: Elementary Flying Training School.
AR: What happened there apart from elementary flying training?
LL: Elementary flying training field, the first month we were there. Obviously the weather or something had held up the courses before and we were dragging the chain a bit. For a month we were known as tarmac terriers. We used to hold the wing of the aircraft because of the strong winds and of course Benellah which was a very open aerodrome no runways or anything it was just big one big huge enormous paddock eh and we’d hold, one fellow on either wing, the wing of the aircraft and we’d hold it till it got round there cause the wind would get under it, the aircraft was such a light aircraft, the Tiger Moth and then we would wait till they took off. You turned your back and you would get splattered with little stones and pebbles and that eh. And there would be fellows waiting down the other end when they landed to wait and hold them there and take them round. It was quite an interesting process, we had for half a day and the other half day we did, school, eh lectures on gunnery and eh basic flying without getting in an aircraft eh and navigation and a few things like that, meteorology particularly which was good. That was interesting even although we weren’t flying we saw these aircraft and we knew only in another couple of weeks and we would be there, then we started. We were allotted to an instructor, Jim Pope was my instructor, he was a sergeant a lovely bloke eh we then continued our lectures for half a day and fly for the other half. The next day it would be alternative, you know, flying and then lectures. It was good, I suppose after about eh it’s still sharp in my log book there, must have been twelve or fourteen hours or something went over to Winton one day which was a satellite ‘drome a bit further up the highway with another instructor. After we did one or two circuits and landings he said, ‘take me over there, pull up over there.’ Pointed to a spot where he wanted to go, he said, ‘now’, he said, ‘you are on your own, do three circuits and bumps and then come and pick me up’. I thought ‘goodness gracious me, here I am on my own’, you know, I was ready to go solo. And eh I wasn’t nervous it was just the excitement of it and you know you were concentrating on remembering all the things he told you to do and all that sort of business. I did three circuits and landings and went and picked him up and he said ‘that was good, alright son.’ Then we did eh, I don’t know whether we went back to Benellah, we stayed there, that’s right and he put me out of the aircraft and took another student and eh that was, that was. Then I went back to the normal side of the pad. The next day we done a bit further advanced flying eh cross country, and a few things like that. We were there altogether three months. Normally it would just have been two months, two months flying, but we did three months actually.
AP: What did you think of the Tiger Moth?
LL: Lovely, they were a breeze now you look back on it, in those days it was a pretty big aircraft, here you were sitting in the back seat. There were two seats, one in front, the pilot sat in front there, two little cockpits. Very basic, they had a control column it was just a stick that stuck up, a throttle which you pushed here, it was very, very basic. But we were told nobody had ever been killed in a Tiger Moth, whether that was true or not I don’t know that was, that was and it was good. I remember one day we had to do a cross country, this was sort of a bit scary I thought anyway. A mate of mine we had to go from Benellah to Ochuga [?], Ochuga [?] to Aubrey then from Aubrey back to Benellah. A mate of mine came up to me Tommy Richards he used to live at Clairbourne [?] and he said, ‘you doing this cross country this afternoon?’ I said ‘yes’. He said ‘so am I’ he said, ‘stick with me I know the road.’ He knew the way and then we flew back along the river and then down the highway you weren’t supposed to do that, you were supposed to go that way and the river might have gone down here but we had no problem. Before we left we had the whole thing planned out, had a little map on our knee and had it all. We got full marks for our navigation but it was only that Tommy had lived at eh, where did he, Clairbourne.
AP: You were talking while they were about no one had crashed a Tiger Moth. Did you encounter any accidents or high jinks or near misses or things, did you know- ?
LL: No, not while I was there, no, no. The biggest problem I reckon and they warned us about it was low flying, we used to [unclear] go down low and then we will frighten this farmer down there. There might have been electric wires going across you know. And we had hanging down the wheels, they weren’t retractable wheels on a, on a eh Tiger Moth. We did a bit of low flying everybody did but eh no I didn’t go as low as some of the blokes did you know. They used to try and be real smart and fly at ground level almost but nobody while I was there.
AP: You go from FTS, next step is a service Flying Training School?
LL: Service Flying Training School we got some leave and got a telegram to report to the RTR expenses troop and eh the smarties knew where we were going. There is always a smarty in every crowd all lined up they call and he’s here and he’s there and we are going to Sydney that means we are going overseas. ‘How do you know we are going to Sydney? That’s where the bloody train’s going.’ ‘Oh right oh we are going to Sydney’, and we went to Sydney. We went to Barfield Park and eh there they kitted us out and eh ‘Don’t think because you are here that you are going overseas, you could be going to Queensland.’ Somebody said, ‘well that’s strange what did they give us Australia badges to put on there’ and then they said, ‘you have got these Australia badges but don’t put them on until you get overseas.’ That’s in case we are going overseas, I don’t know. Well we were there about three or four weeks I think eh and we did nothing and that was pretty awful. And what they do, they were waiting for a ship eh [cough] and eventually they got us all lined up one day with the kit bags we put on a train and we went to Brisbane and put on this ship there the Metsonia and eh [cough] we sailed out down the Brisbane River and out we just got outside the harbour and looking over the side we could see a submarine. ‘Goodness me I hope it is one of ours’ or was one of the Americans ‘cause we didn’t have any submarines at the time and eh we headed, they didn’t tell us where we were going. We had a fair idea it was Canada. We went to New Zealand first and picked up some New Zealanders and then went up the west coast of South America and eh North America and landed at San Francisco. At San Francisco they put us on a train, we went to Vancouver eh got off the train there and put us on one of the Canadian Pacific Railway trains. We went to a place called Edmonton in Alberta. Eh that was quite strange because we didn’t know exactly what was going to happen from there on in. There was a big heap of us there and after three or four or five days I suppose eh we got another posting. I was posted to a place called Dauphin which was in Manitoba which didn’t mean much to me at that stage. Manitoba is actually the central province of the whole of Canada. Dauphin was about ah, suppose it would be about a hundred and fifty mile north west of Winnipeg which was the capital. Then the train went through, there was nothing in Dauphin apart from the air force base and the little village really [cough]. And so when we got there eh we found that we were going to fly Cessna Cranes which was a twin-engine, little twin-engine aircraft, lovely aircraft to fly, lovely and eh that was where eh he made the point there before in crashes in Tiger Moths. I had an Australian instructor, there were a couple of Australian Instructors on the station the rest of them were Canadians. The Canadians were lovely people. The officers were friendly, they didn’t muck around with formalities and that, it was real good. Eh this Australian instructor I had was a Sergeant Lawley, Lawla, Lawley I have got it down, there we are. He didn’t want to be an instructor he wanted to get at the overseas and he was a most unfriendly fellow, but you know I was coping with him and eh one morning we got up and he and another trainee pilot had been killed night flying. It could have been me and eh and that was about the first experience I’d had with anybody sort of eh death, you know. I was nineteen years of age and you were not used to it. Anyway they gave them a full military funeral eh which was good. Then I got a Canadian instructor and then it was real great after that it was wonderful and eh I sailed through the rest of the course. And I graduated in September ’43 as a sergeant pilot, I reckon we were pretty good.
AP: So then comes a boat across to the UK presumably.
LL: Yeah, we got a bit of liberty and went down to New York and Washington which we could ill afford and eh we went to Halifax in Nova Scotia and caught a, and got a boat to, I can’t remember the name of the ship we got to England we went to England in [loud background noise].
AP: We might just wait for a moment I think [laughs].
AP: So we were talking about a boat across to UK, you were just about to embark at Halifax.
LL: The interesting part about that trip was the ship that we went on, I think it might have been the Aquitania. It was a big ship, a lot of Americans on board [doorbell interruption; laugh].
AP: Anyway let’s get back to the boat [laugh] the Aquitania.
LL: And eh there were a lot of Americans from the mid-west not only had they not been on a ship, they never even seen the ocean. A lot of those kids, they were sick all over, oh! it was awful and what we did because we were too fast for a convoy we went on our own. But they zig-zagged all day, that way and then that way all during the daylight hours eh because it takes a certain time for a submarine to line them up to fire a torpedo at them and that’s what. That didn’t worry us but it was most unusual and when it got dark we went whoosh straight ahead. And eh we lived in pretty awful conditions, it was wartime we had hammocks and had a long table that came out from the deck, from the side of the ship and if there were six blokes at the table, three either side you had to find your accommodation so one bloke would sleep on this bench there another back there. Two blokes one would sleep on the table and the other three would be in hammocks above. That’s how, and we couldn’t have showers, we couldn’t shave properly it was pretty awful. We landed at Liverpool and eh went eh got on a train, went to Brighton. We got off the train at Brighton and there was a fellow there, he was a Wing Commander Andy Swan, he was a Scotchman in the RAAF. He had apparently been in the Black Watch for many years before the war done his time, retired, came out to Australia to live and the war started. He applied for a commission and got a commission, they sent him back to England, he was ground staff what we call a shiny bummer ISD interested in special duties. He was a wing commander and he was a dreadful man, dreadful fellow. He saw us, we had been five days on the ship, unshaven, unwashed and feeling very, very lousy and he berated us on the Brighton railway station, platform. Eh he had us smartened up within no time at all, we were going to do this and what a disgrace we were. Anyway the following morning eh, no two mornings later we had a general parade in the hall and there was the padre there, the Church of England padre a fellow called Dave Bear, you might have heard the blokes talk about Dave Bear he was a marvellous fellow he put everybody at ease you know. He said ‘there are three religions in the services, RC’s odds and sods and the other buggers’, he says ‘I am one of the other buggers, if you want anything just come and see me.’ He had a sign above his shop, his store ‘abandon rank all ye who enter here’. And that is what he was like. He used to give advice on a charge or anything like that or help you to write letters home or whatever you wanted. He was a great bloke, didn’t make any difference what you were he was just a wonderful fellow. He virtually did sort of a lot, undid a lot of the evil things this Andy Swan had done. They tell a story of the fellow who finished his tour and is on his way back home and Brighton is what they called 11 PDRC, Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre. So any Australian airmen who went into England went through Brighton and when they were going home they went through Brighton and they knew and this fellow had taken the stiffening out of his cap which we all used to do, made us look a bit racy. Swan pulled him up in the street one day and said, ‘where is the stiffening in your cap?’ ‘I lost it over fucking Berlin’ whoops and kept walking. And then after we had been there for a while I got posted. I think the first posting was to a place called Fairoaks which was just near Windsor Castle, pre-war it would have been the King’s private aerodrome. This was just a way of sort of getting us back into flying again and there we flew Tiger Moths for a while. Eh back to Brighton then went off and done a PT course and then we went off and did some more flying eventually I had been up to Scotland, I was flying up there at a place called Banff eh BANFF [spelt out] was out from Aberdeen, from Inverness, out from Inverness the Scotch people were lovely eh and eh got a posting then to eh Lichfield which was 27 Operational Training Unit. The OTU was where you formed a crew. Lichfield was an Australian OTU in that all the aircrew were Australian so we got I got an Australian crew. It was an interesting thing we had the pilots in the centre, the navigators in one corner and the wireless operators and the bomb aimers and the, and the gunners in another corner [cough]. They said, ‘alright, pilots you have got to go and pick a crew.’ It was as simple as that, I didn’t know anybody who was a navigator but a bloke came up to me, ‘you don’t look a bad sort of a bloke’, and he was a wireless op, he was a bomb aimer, a fellow named Bill Hudson and eh Bill had been a used car salesman in Sydney before the war. Eh he had all the fun in the world and he said ‘stay here’, he said, ‘I will get you a navigator, I know a bloke who is a good navigator.’ He didn’t of course, he went off and he brought back a bloke and he introduced him ‘This is Ron Harmes, so wait there,’ he said. ‘I’ll get you a couple of gunners’ so he went off and got a couple of gunners. I said to him, ‘I am supposed to be picking this crew.’ And he said ‘I got it for you skipper don’t worry about it’. Then he got a eh, he got a wireless operator so eh, here we were we had a crew and I had nothing to do with it, we turned out to be good mates, we all got on very well together. A couple of them were different they eh, but we all sort of mixed in and did our job and eh. And eh there we flew Wellingtons, they were a big, heavy lumbering aircraft they really were. They had been used as a bomber during the early stages of the war but they couldn’t carry enough bombs and eh they couldn’t carry great distances, like a lot of the British aircraft the Whitleys and those sort of aircraft, eh Hampdens, twin-engined aircraft and that eh, just hopeless and the Germans had stole the marks on them because the Germans before the war, once the Nazis got in control they said, ‘who cares about the Geneva Convention, we will build the type of aircraft we need to win a war.’ The British they didn’t, they kept, the wing span couldn’t be more than a hundred feet. That is why when they eventually got the Lancasters and the Halifaxes and wing spans more than a hundred feet they couldn’t fit in the hangers because they had built the hangers to take aircraft with wing span of less than a hundred feet. The Germans it didn’t worry them they had aircraft with wing spans greater than a hundred feet. It was a silly situation but that was the way they operated eh and eh we flew these Wellingtons for a while and we were lucky and Bill was a good bomb aimer and we got highly commended for our bombing activities at training. Then eh I don’t know how many hours we did there, it’s in the log book there, we were posted to a place called Riccall eh, which was a Heavy Conversion Unit. I had been flying Tiger Moths and Cessna Cranes, and Ansons and Oxfords and what have you, you know. Then on the Wellington then boom, four-engined aircraft, it was like eh, like riding a bike and then getting driving train or something it was just sort of an enormous thing really. There we picked up our flight engineer. There weren’t any Australian engineers so we got an Englishman he was the only Englishman in the crew, good bloke too. I don’t know how many hours we did there but that is all in the log book. Then one day they said ‘right Larmer, your crew is posted to a squadron.’ ‘Oops, yeah okay, when do we go?’ ‘This afternoon’ [laugh]. So there we were on a train and eh they met us with a truck. We thought, by this time I got commission and eh they picked us up in a truck. Another crew arrived at the same time as us, this was an English crew. It was an English squadron but this other crew was an English crew, I only had the one Englishman and I, we were the only Australian crew on 51 Squadron at the time. There had been some there before and eh, we went to the orderly room, they told us where we were billeted told me what time dinner was in the officers’ mess and all that sort of business and report to the, you are in B Flight report to B Flight Office at nine o’ clock tomorrow morning. That I did and eh the squadron leader what was his name, Lodge he had nothing doing today. He introduced me to the other blokes, other pilots that were there. The bomb aimers had reported to the bombing leader and the navs to the nav leader and what have you eh, and then he called me back and said I will get you an air test, eleven o’clock. I got the crew and we done and air test at eleven o’clock. I don’t know what the point of it was, they had just done some repairs to an aircraft. Anyway we just hung around then for a couple of days. They said if you are wanted for flying, for an operation your name will be on a list in the officers’ mess. That was up at five o’clock at night you know, a couple of, we had been there about three days, and I got the list five o’clock you know. The following crews will report to the briefing room at 0600 hours tomorrow and my name was there. I went down to the officers’ mess and they said, ‘yes we’ve seen it’, so they knew, all the crew knew. And that was it were there, ready for our first operation which was a bit strange. Nobody took any notice of you, we were just another crew there and nobody sort of put their arm on your shoulder and said ‘you will be right son.’ Just eh, you were briefed, you had a meal and boom, off you go. They said, ‘you go and get dressed, you go and do this, you go and pick up your parachute, you do this, there will be a truck will take you out to your aircraft which was at your dispersal point.’ And that was it. Then eh we did another daylight and then a couple of nights later, a couple of nights later there was a list up eh one morning that there was a briefing at two o’clock and I was flying second pilot with an experienced crew. My crew weren’t going on it, just me and this other pilot went with another crew and he was in C Flight, I was in B Flight. That was a bit strange I had nothing to do except sit next to the pilot and you saw everything that was going on, the rest of the time when you were flying you were doing something, you were busy, you didn’t have time to be worried or frightened or anything like that. I don’t think I was frightened actually on this particular night. But you could see all the anti-aircraft shells exploding all around you and what have you. We got back and we were just taxiing around to a dispersal and we heard this other aircraft calling to eh traffic control V-Victor or J-Johnnie or whatever it was. ‘V-Victor overshoot.’ They had come in a bit high and they were overshooting, the second pilot, the other bloke that had arrived the same time as me, he was still a sergeant. The bomb aimer used to sit next to the pilot on take-off and landing and eh the pilot would open the throttles but then he would have to control, take the control column. So the second dickie used to hold the, hold the throttles open, apparently this bloke didn’t . He’d opened, the pilot had opened it, got onto the thing, the throttles came back, they only got, anyway it crashed, they were all killed, eight of them it was. Nothing was mentioned at debriefing, and the next day at lunch time I said ‘did somebody, what are the funeral arrangements.’ He said ‘what?’ I said, ‘the funeral arrangements for those blokes that were killed.’ He said, ‘there is no funeral, there is a war on son.’ Stone me you know these blokes that were killed in our back yard just across the road from the end of the runway. They buried them, slight, you know quickly eh but they didn’t get any military funeral or what have you it was just ‘there is a war on son.’ And that was it.
AP: Living conditions at Snaith, how, how and where did you live?
LL: Well we were billeted away from the station, of course everybody had a bike eh we were somewhere down near the local village and [cough] just had living accommodation there and as an officer and aircrew we got eh sheets which normally you didn’t get in the air force. Eh in the mess we got, we could get fresh milk and eh before and after a raid we got a meal of bacon and eggs which were luxuries in wartime England. The rest of the time eh the billets were pretty ordinary but you know you got used to them. I could never front breakfast, on one station we were on, this was just after the war we were at Leconfield and one morning for breakfast they’d have kippered herrings and the next morning would be baked beans on toast, they were, I could cop the baked beans on toast but not the kippered herrings, they were. We used to have to wait for the NAAFI which was the restaurant or café opened about eh half past ten or something to get some breakfast [cough] but basically the living conditions were pretty crude eh but that was wartime England you know, they, they couldn’t produce their own food, it all had to be imported and there were much more important things to eh to bring in to the country. But you know we survived, we complained about it mainly because we were eh used to Australian food and Australian conditions. But basically it was pretty good.
AP: Just sort of routing of that for a bit, what were your first impressions of war time England, what did you think, presumably this was the first time you were overseas?
LL: Well eh it was quite a shock, it took a bit of getting used to. When we got there in the November eh it was eh they had two hours daylight saving. Naturally you know that was to eh, you couldn’t have a shower, in Brighton the Australian Air Force had taken over two hotels, the Grand and the Metropole eh and they were eh big, real big hotels. They had stopped the lifts working, if you were on the third floor you walked up and down to the [cough] you could have a bath but the water could only ever come to a certain level. There were all those sort of restrictions you ah you put up with really. You got used to them I suppose after a while mainly because you saw the English and eh they were, they were probably worse off than we were, you know they were on rations and we didn’t have, when we used to go on leave, they used to give us the ration to give to the people we were staying with or wherever we were staying would want ration tickets. But eh you know you couldn’t drive a car, there was no petrol available for private, well there was for doctors and things like that but basically there were all those sort of restrictions. There were blackouts and we had a pretty miserable sort of an existence we found but you got used to it after, well a couple of years I was there, just over two years, just on two years, it was you got used to these sort of things. We were pretty well received the Australians they liked us, they thought we were colonials still but I think some of them still do probably. But eh we went, we were well received on the squadron eh mainly because they didn’t know how to take us. They were eh, we didn’t salute officers, we’d salute wing commanders and above but eh you were supposed to salute squadron leaders and you were supposed to salute flight lieutenants. If you were acting as a flight commander something like that, those sort of thing you know used to rile us. We used to go out of our way [emphasis] not to and that really used to get them going. They didn’t like us at all, and they didn’t know how to discipline us really, they were frightened, and we used to tell them we were subject to RAAF control from and they had headquarters in London and they would have to go through them, but they didn’t know really [cough]. But we survived I suppose.
AP: What sort of things did you do to relax if you weren’t on operations. Where did you go on leave, even not on leave, just when not on duty?
LL: Eh, not much at all, you used to hang around. When we were on the squadron and eh you see that there was nothing going today or nothing going tomorrow day, tomorrow eh you’d go to the pub in the village or you would stay in the mess. They might have a few drinks in the mess eh but eh basically we didn’t do anything with, we didn’t play tennis or cricket or any of those sort of things. I don’t know how we kept fit but we did [laugh].
AP: What sort of things happened in the officers’ mess, what did it look like first of all? What went on there?
LL: Eh very sort of strict, you didn’t sit at this table because this was where the senior officers sat and eh you as a new bloke could sit at that table up there you know. A couple of nights after I had been there a couple of days after I had been there I sat at the wrong table and they told me you know. I couldn’t say that it made any difference where you were sitting but that was what the sort of thing. This is where the senior officers sit. Not you know, when I got on the Squadron I was a pilot officer you know I hadn’t even graduated up to flying officer eh and that sort of thing sort of got to you a bit. I, I went into the flight office one morning, used to go in there, the flight commander you know, used to give him a sort of half salute. He was pretty good Colin Lodge, Plug Lodge they used to call him and eh he was on leave. I had been having a drink in the mess with this fellow I can’t think of his name now, eh he was a flight lieutenant and I had been drinking with him in the mess having a couple of beers with him. Eh I went to the flight office the next morning, I walked in and he is sitting behind the desk and eh I said ‘hello.’ And he said ‘you haven’t saluted.’ I said ‘I don’t have to salute flight lieutenants.’ And he said ‘I am acting squadron leader.’ I said ‘well you haven’t got the bloody rank, not showing it.’ Stupid stubborn you know, he said ‘I am acting flight commander and you are supposed to salute me.’ Oh I probably was supposed to salute the acting flight commander but I, as I say I had been having a drink with him the night before. And he said ‘go outside and come in again and salute me.’ I said ‘right ho.’ I went outside and went down the mess and had a shower. He never spoke to me again, never spoke to me again. Just unbelievable you know, that was the sort of thing. Eh we had one, this Bill Hudson I was telling you about the bomb aimer, we came back from a raid one day eh and after when you came back you dumped all your gear and what have you and you go up for a debriefing and you sit around the table, the intelligence officer sits opposite eh while you are waiting to go in, other crews that are there before you there had been a bit of a hold up and eh on our squadron the padres would give you either eh you could have a cocoa, or a tea, a coffee or something like that and eh an over proof rum. Well I had only one over proof rum, it nearly blew my bloody head off that was all. On this particular day, the eh two gunners didn’t drink and the wireless operator didn’t drink so Bill had two or three over proof rums. And we get in there and he was always a bit of a yapper our Bill eh there was a very attractive WAAF intelligence officer she was a flight lieutenant or a flight officer as they call them eh and eh she spoke to me first and how did we find it over the target area and did we this and that, one thing and another you know [cough] eh and then she said to the navigator and what about, did you have any trouble with your Gee box various [unclear] so and so. And then Bill he was looking at her sort of making a play for her, he had no hope and she didn’t wake up you know. He started to tell her about over the target area. Now there was flak coming up and eh and then the fighters and then the anti, the searchlights and he was wondering how he was able to do it. He was telling her this terrible bloody story and we were just about killing ourselves laughing you know and all of a sudden she woke up. It was a daylight raid and Bill had searchlights coming into his eyes you know. She didn’t think it was funny at all, I said, ‘don’t take any notice of him you know, just write down that we dropped our bombs and we got good photos of the target we reckon and so and so’. No. She wanted to put him on a charge eh for misleading and all that sort of business. Anyway I, I talked to her for some considerable time to try and break her down and I thought I had got, anyway I got to the flight office the next morning and the eh Squadron Leader Lodge said ‘what was this with your bomb aimer last night?’ [emphasis] I said, ‘oh no.’ she had reported it, he she demanded he put him on a charge. I had great difficulty restraining him from putting Bill on a charge and eh that gave us a much worse reputation than we deserved, you know. We were a good crew and we were doing a good job but eh just Bill had, had two over proof rums gone to his ruddy head. I will tell you one story it didn’t happen on our squadron eh but we heard about it in York or one of the local pubs or something. Eh after briefing and the mail all that sort of business, and you got out of the aircraft and had about quarter of an hour, twenty minutes and waited around, you put your stuff in the aircraft and the blokes would have a smoke, had a smoke. Just stand around and sort of relax waiting for time as I say, better get ready and so I can get out there, you know what time you had to take off. This wireless operator went up and eh and he said eh to the pilot, ‘I am not going skip.’ He said, ‘what do you mean you are not going?’ He said ‘I am not going’ he said. ‘You’ve got to go.’ He said, ‘I am not going.’ ‘Why?’ ‘I am not going.’ That’s all he said, so they sent for the flight commander and the flight commander sent one of the ground staff blokes off on a bike to get the -. He arrived out in his car and ‘you’ve got to go.’ ‘I’m not going.’ And that’s all he said, he wouldn’t give him any explanation or reason or anything you know, ‘I am just not going.’ Eh so they said, ‘you will be charged with desertion.’ ‘I am not going’, he said. They charged him with desertion, they locked him up eh they got a relief wireless operator and they were shot down and all killed. Eh he was court martialled and he got ten years in a military prison. I understand that he got out eh shortly after the war finished and they gave them an amnesty those blokes [cough]. But apparently from what I heard, what I subsequently found out later on eh that was all he ever said, ‘I am not going.’ He didn’t tell them why or, or that he wasn’t. He’d been, it wasn’t his first flight, he’d been before, eh two or three times before eh he just said he wasn’t going. Now I don’t know if he had a premonition or what but eh he survived and the other blokes didn’t and that was it. There is not much more I can tell you Adam, I think.
AP: There is one other thing, well there is two questions in particular that I have for you but one I have find out is, on your wings here is a little Guinness pin.
LL: [laugh]
AP: I am guessing there is a story behind that.
LL: On one leave we went to, went to Ireland eh and eh and one day there was a tour of the Guinness Brewery in Dublin. We had to go over in civvies but they knew we were airmen because we had our air force trousers and open neck shirt, blue shirt and sports coat which the army, air force store had provided for us. That was the only way we could get into, get into eh Southern Ireland because it was a neutral country. Eh this fellow said ‘you want to, give you this you know, Guinness badge, it will bring you luck, wear it for luck.’ I used to wear it on my battle dress, I just pinned it onto the eh onto the wing after I got rid of the battle dress at the end of the war, that was all.
AP: Been there ever since.
LL: [laugh]
AP: Okay there is another question that I want to ask as well. Was there any superstitions or [? voodoos] on 51 Squadron, rituals that people would do that you were aware of, for luck I suppose?
LL: No one thing they did eh they did, we had to do thirty flights, thirty trips for a, for a, for a tour eh and anybody that was doing their thirtieth trip, you knew but you would never say to the bloke ‘is this your last trip?’ I said it to one bloke ‘is this your last trip?’ [emphasis] He very near hit me. That was a very bad sign, no I don’t think there was, don’t think there was anything like that eh, not that I can recall, no.
AP: Okay. Final question and probably the most important em, how in your view is Bomber Command remembered, what sort of legacy?
LL: We fellows in Bomber Command eh [pause] during the war you didn’t sort of think much about how good you were and all that sort of business but when you saw the figures at the end of the war of the casualties and eh this is a classic example. The casualties there, just the Australian casualties that is eh when you saw you realised they had a loss rate of something round about forty per cent. It was a bit higher for the English, forty two or three per cent you know it was pretty awful and eh Harris was treated very shabbily by the British Government at the end of the war. Harris apparently, not apparently actually he was a brilliant organiser absolutely brilliant but apparently he was a dreadful bastard he used to argue eh and he would refuse. They would tell him a target say on Monday, they would have to get a couple of days in advance obviously to plan up and how many aircraft they would need, which way they would go and all that sort of business. Eh and he would tell them he wouldn’t go, that ‘we are not going to that place.’ You know. Just refused to, he would argue with Churchill, he would argue with the Air Board, he would argue with the Air Ministry eh he was one of those sort of fellows but he was always right. They wouldn’t admit it of course but eh ‘we are not going there, you want us to go there because this suits you after the war you know, so we are not going there, but we will go there.’ They said ‘no we don’t want to go there till next week.’ ‘Well we are going this week.’ You know, and he would plan it and that would be a very successful raid and it would have done the job you know eh. And at the end of the war all the chiefs of all the commands like Fighter Command, Coastal Command and Training Command were all made Marshals of the Royal Air Force, Harris wasn’t they left his as an air chief marshal. He resigned his commission immediately got on an aeroplane and went, took his wife and daughter to South America, to eh South Africa eh I don’t know whether he ever went back. Somebody told me once that he thought years afterwards that they eh had relented and made him a marshal of the Royal Air Force. I am not sure about that I never heard anything about that. Eh and eh that without any publicity the fact that these three blokes got, or four blokes got air, or marshals of the Royal Air Force which was equivalent of a field marshal eh and Harris didn’t. We all felt a bit, ‘is that what they think of us, is that really?’ We had the idea that we won the war, Harris gave us this impression. We are doing this as opposed to the American Eighth Air Force eh, and they were sort of a bit at loggerheads, they didn’t do any daylight, eh night time flights they only did daylights the eh Americans and we did daylights and nights you know, whatever it didn’t make any difference. We went out over the North Sea and fly for hours over the North Sea without any landmarks eh to check your position eh. We reckoned that Bomber Command had done an enormous job and they had, there was no two ways about it eh and a lot of us sort of felt well, the bulk of Bomber Command felt let down, eh really. Fighter Command got a lot of publicity early in the war Churchill went on with this ‘never was so much owed by so much, many to so few’. Eh but their work finished in September ’41. And they didn’t really do anything further until eh the invasion. They went over with, a bit of protective force for the invasion forces but basically they didn’t do anything. Eh we never had any fighter escort, never, the Americans had fighter escorts they used to take them over there and then meet them on the way back but we never had any. So as far as Fighter Command was concerned they did nothing [emphasis] for three years during the war. Bomber Command flew in operational flights from the day the war started or the day after the war started until the day after the war finished, really. So that was a bit of a let-down, really. And then eh persevered it took seventy odd, sixty, seventy years before we got a little clasp that said Bomber Command, the Bomber Command Association like the old boys of Bomber Command like their association in England, they tried for years to eh get some recognition and they eh tried to get us awarded the eh congress, eh the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal, CGM, eh they eventually knocked it back completely to ‘no’, said logistically couldn’t be done and all this sort of business and they went on and had a million reasons for it. And then they said well eh ‘we’ve got these ribbons.’ But no what does that show eh I’ve got a ribbon France, Germany Star which shows that I was in operations, but doesn’t show that I was in Bomber Command. So they said ‘we will give you a Bomber Command [doorbell interruption]. That’s typical.
LL: I rang our honours and awards section in Canberra week after week after week and I’ve given up. ‘Well’ they said, ‘your application is on hold.’ And I said, ‘why would it be on hold?’ ‘I don’t know why Mr Larmer but it is on hold.’ I said, ‘well get it bloody off hold.’ Eventually she then came back a couple of days later, ‘no, no it’s ok.’ I said ‘there couldn’t have been any bloody doubt about it, you know. You have got the exact figures and you have a copy of my log book’ and all that sort of business. ‘We are sorry about that Mr Larmer.’ ‘Now’, I said, ‘now how long is it going to take?’ ‘Oh it shouldn’t be very long now.’ Anyway eh I’d been waiting, oh, from the time I applied it was seventeen months and a mate of mine said, ‘why don’t you get onto John Find?’ I said, ‘no, no John Find couldn’t do anything.’ Anyway the next thing I know I get a ring from John Find’s producer. And eh I said ‘who told you?’ ‘Mr Bill Burke a friend of mine’. I said ‘Oh no, I said I told him I wasn’t, didn’t want to.’ And she said, ‘John would like to speak to you about it.’ Anyway he spoke to me and he sort of eh said, ‘are you serious, you know you have been waiting seventeen months?’ and I said, ‘yeah’ I said, ‘it doesn’t have to be fairly long, because I am ninety years of age, if it don’t get it soon it doesn’t matter.’ And he said, ‘no we’ll get it.’ And eh anyway he rang me back the next day, she rang me back the next day she said ‘John wants to speak to you again.’ He said ‘I have been speaking to the assistant minister eh, and eh he said within six weeks.’ And I said ‘ I don’t know what you drink in that place, but if you believe him, you know.’ I said ‘they won’t have it in six weeks.’ Two weeks later I got it, we got it you know. He rang me and said ‘Oh Mr Larmer your clasp for your Bomber Command clasp is coming through, you know it will be sent it down to you in the next week.’ Two weeks it took and I spoke to John Find afterwards to thank him and I said ‘I, I can’t understand it you know’. He said ‘Laurie they are frightened of us, we can give them bad publicity’, he said, ‘they don’t want any.’ He said, ‘we could have made them look very foolish.’ He said ‘and that is what we were prepared to do’, he said, ‘and they know it’, he said, ‘it is an awful way to exist.’ He said, ‘you couldn’t embarrass them but we could.’ Isn’t that terrible really and that was the thing. I wasn’t so much the fault of the people here in Australia, the people in England hadn’t done anything about it. It took an assistant minister here to get onto somebody in England to get them. They only had to put a fifty or sixty or a hundred of them in a box you know, it wouldn’t be as big as that, to get them out here and that’s what happened. So you know that’s what happened. Overall eh we reckon that Bomber Command and probably we are a bit unreasonable but I reckon we got a bit of a, you know rough end of the pineapple. Because eh towards the end of the war all the operations in the last two years of the war all the operations with Bomber Command all the news on the, on the BBC was six hundred of their aircraft went to Nuremburg last night, ten of our aircraft are missing. That was another thing, ten of our aircraft, but it was seventy men. Even meant you know you go on a raid and say three out of their aircraft went to Dortmund and they did bomb the railway yards and whatever they might have done you know. Five of their aircraft are missing that was thirty five men and that, that sort of eh took a bit of getting used to. Eh I could see their point from a psychological point of view everything was done to protect the morale, or build up the morale of the British people eh but eh it gave you the impression that aeroplanes were more important than blokes [ironic laugh] probably in war time they had plenty of blokes but were short of aircraft you know. There you are, alright you have heard all of that?
AP: I think we have heard all of that. Thank you very much it has been a pleasure for the last couple of hours.
LL: [laugh]
Dublin Core
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ALarmerLO151112
Title
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Interview with Lawrence Larmer
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:09:51 audio recording
Creator
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2015-11-12
Description
An account of the resource
Lawrence Larmer was born in Australia in 1920. After completing school he went to work on the Beaufort aircraft in the Department of Aircraft Production. He was called up in 1942 and volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force to avoid the army. His initial training on Tiger Moth aircraft was followed by further training in Manitoba, Canada. He graduated as a sergeant pilot in 1943 and was posted to Great Britain. He describes conditions at 11 Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre, Brighton. At 27 Operational Training Unit, RAF Lichfield, he crewed up before posting to 1658 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall. His first operational posting was to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. Lawrence Larmer discusses in detail the process of crewing up, of relations between personnel on the station, officers’ living conditions, and a case of desertion. He also discusses his views on Sir Arthur Harris and recounts his experience of applying for the Bomber Command clasp.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Mal Prissick
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Canada
Great Britain
England--Brighton
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Manitoba
United States
England--Sussex
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
1658 HCU
27 OTU
51 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
coping mechanism
crewing up
debriefing
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
mess
military discipline
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Lichfield
RAF Riccall
RAF Snaith
superstition
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/283/6693/LJonesTJ184141v1.2.pdf
5748d2448d5ea2cadc0c3e9a2aadc8de
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jones, Thomas John
Tom Jones
T Jones
Description
An account of the resource
62 items. An oral history interview with Peter William Arthur Jones (b. 1954) about his father Thomas John Jones DFC (b. 1921, 1640434 and 184141 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs, correspondence, service documents, aircraft recognition manuals, medals and a memoir. He flew operations as a flight engineer on 622 Squadron Stirling and 7 Squadron on Lancaster. <br /><br />The collection also contains an <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/2566">Album</a> of 129 types of aircraft. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Jones and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-12-04
2017-12-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jones, PW
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tom Jones’ navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book for Sergeant Tom Jones from 17 August 1943 to 27 August 1945. Detailing training schedule, instructional duties and operations flown. Served at RAF Mildenhall, RAF Warboys, RAF Oakington, RAF Nutts Corner, RAF Riccall and RAF Dishforth. Aircraft flown were. Stirling, Lancaster, Oxford, C-47 and York. He flew a total of 11-night operations with 622 squadron and 51 operations with 7 squadron pathfinder force. 18 daylight and 33-night operations on the following targets in France, Germany, the Netherlands and Poland: Aachen, Amiens, Aulnoye, Berlin, Biennias [sic], Cabourg, Cagney [sic], Chalons sur Marne, Chambley, Dortmund, Duisburg, Emden, Essen, Falaise, Fougeres, Foret de l'Isle-Adam, Franceville, Hannover, Homburg, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Kattegat, Kiel, Le Havre, Lille, Liuzeux [sic], Ludwigshafen, Lumbres, Montrichard, Mt Couple [sic], Mantes, Normandy battle area, Oisemont, <span>Œuf-en-Ternois</span> [sic], Renescure, Rennes, Schweinfurt, Skagerrak, St Martin d’Hortiers, Stettin, Stuttgart, Tergnier, Thiverny, Tours, Valenciennes, Venlo aerodrome and V-1 sites. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Phillips DFC, Wing Commander Lockhart and Wing Commander Cox. The log book is well annotated with comments about events during operations.
Format
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One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
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LJonesTJ184141v1
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Skagerrak
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
France--Amiens
France--Cabourg
France--Chambley Air Base
France--Falaise
France--La Pallice
France--Le Havre
France--Lille
France--L'Isle-Adam
France--Lumbres
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Montrichard
France--Nord (Department)
France--Normandy
France--Nieppe Forest
France--Oise
France--Oisemont (Canton)
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Rennes
France--Somme
France--Tergnier (Canton)
France--Tours
France--Valenciennes
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Emden (Lower Saxony)
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Schweinfurt
Germany--Stuttgart
Netherlands--Venlo
Northern Ireland--Antrim (County)
Poland--Szczecin
France--Neufchâtel-en-Bray
France--Châlons-en-Champagne
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Œuf-en-Ternois
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1943-09-21
1943-09-22
1943-09-27
1943-09-28
1943-10-02
1943-10-03
1943-10-04
1943-11-18
1943-11-22
1943-11-23
1944-01-30
1944-01-31
1944-02-20
1944-02-21
1944-02-24
1944-02-25
1944-03-01
1944-03-02
1944-04-09
1944-04-10
1944-04-11
1944-04-12
1944-04-18
1944-04-19
1944-04-24
1944-04-25
1944-04-26
1944-04-27
1944-05-01
1944-05-02
1944-05-06
1944-05-07
1944-05-21
1944-05-22
1944-05-23
1944-05-24
1944-05-25
1944-05-27
1944-05-28
1944-05-31
1944-06-01
1944-06-06
1944-06-07
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
1944-06-11
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-17
1944-06-27
1944-06-28
1944-07-01
1944-07-04
1944-07-06
1944-07-08
1944-07-12
1944-07-15
1944-07-16
1944-07-18
1944-07-19
1944-07-20
1944-07-21
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-08-01
1944-08-04
1944-08-06
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-09
1944-08-10
1944-08-11
1944-08-12
1944-08-13
1944-08-28
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-09-01
1944-09-03
1944-09-05
1944-09-06
1944-09-09
1944-09-10
1944-06-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
1657 HCU
622 Squadron
7 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
B-24
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
C-47
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Dishforth
RAF Mildenhall
RAF Nutts Corner
RAF Oakington
RAF Riccall
RAF Stradishall
RAF Warboys
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
target indicator
training
V-1
V-weapon
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/587/8856/PHowB1601.2.jpg
fda853d50fe72cf8e047663a7acfeb5e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/587/8856/AHowB161116.2.mp3
66e2d87ba36f0e32044199f5f130f194
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
How, Bernie
B How
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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How, B
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bernie How (1924 - 2021, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 199 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BH: You’ve parked in the yard have you?
DK: I’ve parked in the yard. Yeah. Is it ok there?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, 16th of November 2016, interviewing Mr Bernie How.
BH: No E. H O W.
DK: H O W. Yeah. Ok if I just leave that there. If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still going. I’m not being rude. Alright. What I would like to ask you first of all Mr How, what were you doing immediately before the war?
BH: Well I was at school. I was born in ’24. So when war broke out I was fourteen.
DK: Right. And what, what made you then want to join the RAF? Was there anything that drove you?
BH: Well the next village, which was Freckenham, there’s a big house there. It was owned by a lady-in-waiting to the Queen so it’s name was Freckenham House and the RAF commandeered it, put air crew to sleep there rather than sleep on the station.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So they could get sleep.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Away from where possible bombing you know. And of course these air crew, I was born in a public house –
DK: Oh right.
BH: So we was the centre of activity with them. It was only five minutes’ walk from there, Freckenham House, to my dad’s pub.
DK: Right.
BH: And they used to flood the place you know. And of course they –
DK: They liked to drink did they?
BH: Well liked to drink. Liked to chat. The stories what they were going through at that time.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: Some were like this, even then.
DK: Really. So what year would this have been then?
BH: This would have been 1940/41.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah
DK: Ok.
BH: Early part. They were flying Wellingtons mainly at the start and of course they’d come down and we was kids, we wanted to know all about what they were doing and you got chatting to them. You got to know them as Bob, Harry, Jim or whatever and I thought to myself I’d like to do that and that’s where it started. As I grow into the fifteen, sixteen, seventeen I volunteered for the RAF.
DK: So you were seventeen when you volunteered then?
BH: I was seventeen when I volunteered and I weren’t quite eighteen when I got my number. In other words I was in the air force before I was eighteen.
DK: Right. So where, where was your initial posting to then? Where was it?
BH: Well we went to Cardington where everybody –
DK: Yeah.
BH: Went then. And thousands upon thousands and thousands. Got your uniform and your number and then we was posted to, or I was, to Skegness to do what they called then square bashing.
DK: Right.
BH: In other words –
DK: Yeah.
BH: To learn a bit of marching and then eventually I found my way to Cosford on a flight mechanics course.
DK: Right.
BH: There was nothing from the RAF then to say I would eventually be air crew.
DK: Oh right.
BH: But during the flight mechanics course they come round, different sergeants or warrant officers or whatever they were, ‘Any volunteers here for flight engineer?’ So I volunteered ‘cos you got through the flight mechanics course and the next posting was RAF St Athan where you trained to be a flight engineer and that was it.
DK: So, what, what did the training as a flight engineer involve then?
BH: Well sitting around a desk and listening to a corporal or a sergeant or even someone higher telling you all about the aircraft you had chosen.
DK: Right.
BH: To fly. Inside and out to quite how many tanks were in each wing and how much they held and the general feeling of the, of the aircraft itself.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I went in for Stirlings. They come around before you’ve done your course. Would you like to fly Stirlings, Halifax or Lancasters or whatever? Well I volunteered for Stirlings so therefore everything was –
DK: Based on the Stirling.
BH: Yeah. On the course.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Course we eventually passed and I came to a place just the other side of Cambridge known as Wratting Common. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of it.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
BH: A conversion unit. My crew had already been together two or three months flying two engine aircraft.
DK: Right.
BH: So they were posted to Wratting Common for a conversion unit to four.
DK: This is the heavy conversion unit.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: This is when I joined them.
DK: Yeah.
BH: So they’d known each other for several weeks or even months before they met me ‘cause they didn’t have engineers on a two engine aircraft.
DK: So what did you think when you first met your crew?
BH: Well they come, you just sit there and eventually the pilot come up to you and introduced himself and this kind of thing. And he said, ‘Would you like to be our flight engineer?’ ‘Oh’ he said, ‘What’s your name?’ I said, ‘Bernie.’ He said, ‘Would you like to be my flight engineer Bernie?’ ‘Yeah. That’s ok.’ And that was it. I joined them and we started flying at the conversion unit and eventually finished up at Lakenheath.
DK: Can you remember your pilot, the pilot’s name?
BH: Oh yeah. He was Canadian. We had three Canadians in the crew actually. His surname was Harker.
DK: Harker. Right.
BH: H A R K E R.
DK: Right.
BH: He was, at that time, a pilot officer.
DK: And he came from Canada.
BH: Yeah. Three of them come from Canada.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Him, the navigator and the rear gunner. Yeah. Two from London. Myself here and the mid upper gunner lived in Bury St Edmunds.
DK: Did you feel quite confident when you met your crew for the first time then?
BH: Yeah. I wasn’t very big as you can see but I was a confident little person you know. Yeah.
DK: And did, do you think they had confidence in you as well?
BH: They must have done. Whether they talked to someone before they approached me I don’t know. I never asked that question but I have a feeling they may have done.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So at the heavy conversion unit then the whole crew then trained there.
BH: That’s right.
DK: Initially.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And trained for a few weeks and eventually a posting come through. We was moved to Lakenheath and joined 199 Squadron.
DK: 199 Squadron.
BH: Yeah. And that’s where I started off.
DK: So all your operations then were on Stirlings or –
BH: No. We converted. What happened was after Lakenheath we moved because Lakenheath runway started breaking up.
DK: Right.
BH: So we had to move somewhere else and we went to North Creake in Norfolk.
DK: Right.
BH: And the other squadron what was there moved to, not far down the road to, still in Norfolk, I forget the name
DK: Ok.
BH: But they went there and we went to North Creake.
DK: So at this point had you flown any operations at all?
BH: Yes.
DK: Right.
BH: We flew about eight from Lakenheath.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: All on Stirlings.
BH: All on Stirlings yeah. Then we went to North Creake and continued there and one particular night we’d got mines on board, sea mines what we dropped in different coves in France or Germany or wherever. On take-off we crashed.
DK: This was at Lakenheath or –
BH: No. This was at North Creake.
DK: North Creake. Yeah.
BH: We crashed and nobody was hurt much. The pilot got knocked about a little bit.
DK: Oh.
BH: But we were just leaving the ground and the tyre burst and down it went bang bang bang and the next day the pilot went into hospital. Not for long. Had some minor injuries and after he come out we was posted to a place in Yorkshire to convert to Halifaxes. Riccall in Yorkshire.
DK: Was, was the problem with the Stirling‘s undercarriages at all? Is that why it -?
BH: Yes. Yeah.
DK: Did you actually come off the runway or did you -?
BH: No. We were still on the –
DK: Runway.
BH: We finished on the airfield, off the runway but -
DK: Yeah.
BH: We hadn’t left the ground hardly. May just about have. Very close, you know.
DK: Was that a bit worrying with the mines on board?
BH: Well that was the thought, yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But we were all young. I was only nineteen I think.
DK: Yeah.
BH: You hadn’t got a lot of care in the world really.
DK: So how, as the aircraft has crashed how did you get out? Were you got the escape hatches or -?
BH: That’s right. Well the normal entrance to our, that’s the one I got out of. I think, I think the pilot scrambled out of his hatchway.
DK: Right.
BH: Because by that time we was not high. It was low on –
DK: Yeah.
BH: The undercarriage had gone and it wasn’t a big drop.
DK: So what was your thoughts then about the Stirling as an aircraft?
BH: I thought it was a beautiful aircraft. To fly especially. The problem was it couldn’t get the height.
DK: Right.
BH: I think its maximum was about thirteen or fourteen thousand where the Lancaster and Halifax could reach up to twenty thousand
DK: Did you feel a bit exposed at those low levels then?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But once up there. A beautiful aircraft to fly. Yeah. It was really.
DK: So on the Stirling then you were the flight engineer. What would your role be?
BH: Well mainly there was fourteen petrol tanks. Seven in each wing and mainly to control them as one, gradually making sure you didn’t lose the balance. In other words not too much left in there or not enough in there and that kind of thing. Control of the petrol. That was the main job but we also had to watch out for, you was also a stand-by gunner if anything happened to the gunners.
DK: Right.
BH: So you had sort of a little training before to fire a gun if necessary and -
DK: Did you, did you help the pilot, sorry, did you help the pilot at all or –
BH: No. That was mainly, in our case the bomb aimer.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BH: Really, when you think he hadn’t got a lot to do until you got where you was heading for so he used to mainly sit in the number two seat.
DK: Right. So you would be sitting behind them.
BH: Well we didn’t, as an engineer we hardly had a seat.
DK: Oh. Right.
BH: I think there was a lift up. What I remember you could just have a seat but mainly you was up and down looking at the engines and –
DK: So for the duration of the raid you were mostly standing up then.
BH: Walking or standing. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Can you remember any of the places you went to with the Stirling or -?
BH: Oh.
DK: Obviously some were mining operations.
BH: Yeah but yeah, the Frisian islands which was up North Germany.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Getting towards Russia.
DK: Yeah
BH: That was a dodgy one. As you’ve heard talk just recently of the navy having a convoy -
DK: Yeah.
BH: To Russia. Well that was mainly the same although we was up there and they was on water it was mainly a similar route to what they were taking.
DK: Oh right.
BH: And that was a, a dodgy one.
DK: Did you, did you fly on the Stirlings to any of the German towns and cities at all?
BH: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. In fact the last one was a small town and the name was Plauen or Plauen. It was a small town something like the size of Ipswich or Norwich. We bombed that and this is the last, last trip we had.
DK: Right.
BH: We didn’t know it but that was and what happened we dropped the bombs and then the normal procedure is to bank around outside the target and head for home. Well our skipper panicked. He must have panicked. He turned around and went straight back over the target again so we were meeting other aircraft what were coming in. How we didn’t hit one we’d never know. Nothing was said on the way home. We was dead quiet. No one hardly spoke. They knew –
DK: Yeah.
BH: What had happened and we arrived and debriefing and one thing, nothing was said at the time but the next day, about midday, we was finished flying.
DK: Right.
BH: I didn’t have any reason at all. We’d, mind you we’d done thirty five trips so we was getting, but it was decided that the pilot had panicked.
DK: Right.
BH: And he probably wasn’t fit to carry on so the whole crew was disbanded.
DK: So you did thirty five operations all together then.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And how many of those were on Stirlings?
BH: Well, Halifaxes, I would think, at a guess this would be.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Stirlings would be something like twenty two or twenty three. Something like that. And the rest were Halifaxes. Yeah.
DK: So, so you, you were moved to, from the Stirlings then to the Halifaxes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you moved base as well then did you?
BH: No. We went up to Riccall.
DK: Riccall. Right.
BH: To convert to Halifaxes. That’s where the Halifaxes were.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Mainly in Yorkshire. Nearly all Halifaxes up there and we was up there about three or four weeks and converted and we come back to North Creake.
DK: Right.
BH: And North Creake was then –
DK: Halifaxes.
BH: Nearly all, gradually overtook.
DK: Yeah. And that was still 199 Squadron.
BH: Oh yeah.
DK: So 199 Squadron converted from the Stirling.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: To the Halifaxes.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were then flying the Halifax. What was your opinion of that aircraft?
BH: Well as I said a little while ago it could get much higher. I think it was lighter and it was probably a little bit more compact. Yeah. It was a lovely aircraft.
DK: Would you have a preference over the two types? The Stirling to the –
BH: I loved the Stirling and I think the whole crew did. Probably when we was taken off, I wouldn’t say it was tears but we were disappointed that we weren’t going to fly a Stirling anymore but the Halifax was good. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So as a flight engineer on the Halifax then what was your –
BH: Similar.
DK: Very similar.
BH: Similar.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you’re watching -
BH: Yeah.
DK: The petrol tanks -
DK: That was my main job. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: The only other thing what may have went wrong? If the engines overheated well, we had to, what we called feathered them. In other words stop them.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Did that happen on any occasion? You had to -
BH: Oh yeah we came home on three engines.
DK: Yeah.
BH: A few times. Yeah.
DK: And what, what had caused the engine to be shut down? Was it damage or –
BH: Overheating or things like, or wasn’t powerful enough and the pilot, we called him the skipper, then would say, ‘Bernie something wrong with the inner starboard. It’s not pulling.’ Then we had a chat about it we called what they called feather it. That’s when the props -
DK: Yeah.
BH: And went back onto three. No doubt that was done hundreds of times in different aircrafts.
DK: Yeah. So when you got back after an operation then how did you feel then as you arrived back at base?
BH: Relieved. Yeah. We used to go in for debriefing and you had a little drop of rum. That was a recognised thing. Then you went back to the mess and had a meal. It could have been anything from midnight to 8 o’clock in the morning but the meal was there. They were waiting to cook you a meal.
DK: Yeah. And the debriefing then was that, was that very intense? Did they ask you lots of questions?
BH: Well they wanted to know what had happened. What you saw. Did you see any fighter aircraft? Did you? Anything really. Yeah.
DK: So was there any occasions when your aircraft was damaged by flak or night fighters?
BH: Yeah. We got hit once or twice. Not seriously. We did get one engine hit so we had to stop that one.
DK: Yeah.
BH: But not as bad as some of them. Some were really bad.
DK: So there was no occasion you were attacked by aircraft then.
BH: Well we was attacked by them but not, not intense. No. No. They were probably floating around seeing anything and if they happened to see a bomber they’d fire and hit it or miss it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And they’d move on to another one or, yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah.
DK: Can you recall any of your targets then over, over Germany or was there -
BH: What, the towns?
DK: The actual towns, yeah.
BH: Well we went to this one. The last one -
DK: Yeah.
BH: Plauen. We went to Dortmund. Cologne. Just the normal, you know the ones.
DK: Was Berlin one at all?
BH: No. I didn’t go to Berlin.
DK: You didn’t. No. Ok.
BH: We didn’t go to Berlin. We didn’t go to, where was the other big one?
DK: Hamburg.
BH: Hamburg. We didn’t go to Hamburg. No. I lost a friend. He lived in the next village. He was a flight engineer too and he was stationed in Yorkshire on Halifaxes and he copped his lot after five trips, over Hamburg. And they haven’t found anything of him or his crew since.
DK: No.
BH: So he was blown to bits. That’s what we all assumed anyway.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. So of your thirty five operations then what, what, did you do after that?
BH: Well we was all went different places. I think the three Canadians went to Canada back. Not together necessarily.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And I finished up in air, air control. Flying control up in Inverness. A very small station.
DK: Right.
BH: There were very few aircraft and I worked there and stayed there until we finished with the RAF.
DK: And what year was that you came out the RAF then?
BH: Late, late ‘45. I’m not too certain of the month but late ‘45. Yeah.
DK: And what was, what was your career after, after the RAF then? What did you do?
BH: Well I left the building trade when I joined and I went back.
DK: Right. So looking back now after all these years how do you feel about your time in the RAF?
BH: Enjoyed it. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. We did really. Yeah. Because you met different people and that kind of thing.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. We really enjoyed it. Yeah.
DK: Did you, were you able to stay in touch with your crew at all or -?
BH: Oh yes. We had numerous –
DK: Reunions.
BH: Reunions. Mainly in Leicester because Leicester was central or near central as you could get.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And we went there several years, once a year.
DK: The Canadians as well did they -?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Come over? Yeah.
BH: Well the whole squadron.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Squadron reunions. I mean everyone was invited but we started off, I think the first one was around about a hundred and forty, a hundred and fifty attended but of course that gradually went down. People was ill or died. The last one we attended was eighteen.
DK: Right.
BH: And the chappie who organised it decided that, you know, that was it. So he got up on the last one and told us that this was the last reunion. Yeah.
DK: The last reunion for 199 Squadron.
BH: That’s right. Yeah.
DK: Are any of your crew still alive do you know?
BH: No. They’re all gone. Yeah.
DK: And can, can you name the whole crew still or -?
BH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Blimey. Who was, can you name the gunners?
BH: Yeah. Stan Pallant.
DK: Yeah.
BH: And Stanley Pallant was the upper, upper gunner.
DK: Yeah. The rear gunner?
BH: The rear gunner was a Canadian. I just forget his name now. Anyway, the bomb aimer was Alf Salter, come from London. The wireless operator was Harry Durrell. He come from London. The pilot’s name was Ernie Harker as I told you, come from Canada. The navigator was Johnny Russell, come from Canada. The mid upper gunner was Stanley Pallant, come from Bury St Edmunds and the rear gunner was, I know his name as well as my own but he was the odd one out. He, he didn’t socially mix with us. Very seldom. All the rest, at North Creake there was a pub off, just off the station. It was The Black Swan but it was always called the Mucky Duck so it always arranged for the Mucky Duck. I just can’t think of the rear gunner’s name.
DK: It will probably come to you.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So did you find that was important then to socialise with your crew and -?
BH: Oh yeah. The crews mostly were an item. They did probably talk to other members but you mixed mainly with your own crew nearly all the time.
DK: And, and was, there were officers in your crew as well.
BH: Oh yes.
DK: And was that an issue with officers and non-officers or did they -?
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: They met. They socialised together.
BH: Oh yeah. Very much so yeah. You didn’t know them as officers. They was Harry or Alf or whatever, you know.
DK: And you think that was very important for the crew.
BH: Yes. Oh yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I’ve got a picture of the crew somewhere. Oh. That might interest you. That’s me there.
DK: Oh. Oh wow. This is –
BH: War pictures on the inside.
DK: [unclear] Oh right. Members of a Norfolk airfield. Key role in wartime operations. [pause] So this is about RAF North Creake then.
BH: Sorry?
DK: About RAF North Creake.
BH: North Creake. Yeah.
DK: So the control tower is still there then.
BH: Yeah. That’s now a bed and breakfast.
DK: Oh yes. Of course it is. Yes. I keep meaning to pay them a visit actually and stay there the night.
BH: Yeah. They’re in operation there. I know them well. Both of them, you know.
DK: Is this your actual aircraft that crashed then or was it –?
BH: That’s the one, yeah
DK: That’s the one.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So that was September 1944.
BH: Yeah. I’ve got a picture of it.
[pause]
BH: Well that’s my crew.
DK: Oh right. Ok. And that’s the Halifax behind it.
BH: That’s the Halifax. Yeah. [pause] Yes, interesting paper really.
DK: Yeah.
[pause]
BH: That’s the aircraft again.
DK: Oh wow. So that’s where it’s, it’s taken the wing off hasn’t it?
BH: Yeah. The wing come right off one of them. Yeah.
[pause]
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Well that’s all the Stirling. That’s all different.
DK: The Stirlings. Yeah.
BH: Just a book of Stirlings. Yeah.
DK: That’s actually the photos from there isn’t it?
BH: That’s the one again.
DK: So that’s the Short Stirling in action.
BH: That’s right yeah.
DK: So that’s the squadron signal publication. Aircraft number 96.
BH: These are just pictures taken at Lakenheath.
DK: Right.
BH: That’s taken at Wratting Common. That’s more.
DK: Are those, those are sea mines aren’t they?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So you were carrying two of those –
BH: That’s right.
DK: When you crashed.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Oh yeah. I see here it says sea mines on the back.
BH: That’s the aircraft again. Yeah. We’ve got different bits of paper. That’s the crew, the whole crew of –
DK: 199 Squadron.
BH: You’ll find us down there somewhere.
DK: So this is all the air crew that served with 199 at some time.
BH: At that time.
DK: At some point. At that time. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: There you are. Yeah.
BH: That’s North Creake.
DK: Yeah.
BH: I hadn’t had that long actually.
DK: I must pay a visit at some point.
BH: Yeah. Bed and breakfast. They’ve got the whole control tower. I think they’ve got four bedrooms. Yeah.
DK: So that’s the crew there then. So that’s. Where are they?
BH: That’s the crew. Yeah.
DK: So if I, just for the recording here so this is, that’s Harker there is it?
BH: The one with the hat on yeah.
DK: That’s Harker. So from left to right.
BH: Stanley Pallant.
DK: Stanley Pallant.
BH: Harry Durrell from London.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Myself. That’s the one I just can’t think of his –
DK: Right.
BH: That would be on here.
DK: Is he, is he listed on there?
BH: Yeah. Sewell.
DK: Sewell. So kneeling down there is Sewell.
BH: Then –
DK: Harker and then –
BH: Bomb aimer. Alf Salter
DK: Alf Salter, right.
BH: And Johnny Russell. The Canadian navigator.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And I noticed here just in the article it mentions about, so you flew on Operation Overlord.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So what was that like then? Did you realise what was happening when you –
BH: Oh yes.
DK: Went on operation? They did –
BH: Briefed.
DK: So at the briefing they told you that was –
BH: Oh Yeah.
DK: That was D-Day.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So what was your role then on D-Day?
BH: Well it was a similar thing. We patrolled over the water, you know, the Channel, dropping things to disrupt their, the German navigator or whatever.
DK: Their radar.
BH: Radar. Yeah.
DK: So what was it you were dropping then? Was it Window?
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Kind of. Yeah.
DK: So you were dropping Window then to disrupt the –
BH: We were just hoping that would distract them. It probably did. Yeah.
DK: So can you remember how long you were in the air for over Normandy doing this?
BH: Well the trip itself from the station, four to five hours. So we were probably hovering around there for three hours anyway. Yeah.
DK: And did you see any of the ships then?
BH: You could see about - we were flying around about five thousand I think. You could see action. Yeah.
DK: So you could see the invasion fleet.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And was the sky quite crowded then with aircraft.
BH: Oh yes. Yeah. All sorts, yeah.
DK: So at the briefing then and they told you this is, this is D-day what was your feelings then?
BH: Well we probably shook for a minute or two you know. Mind you I think the whole country knew it was coming.
DK: Right.
BH: Probably the people living near where they left from. They knew more than lots of people knew.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: And, and so you got back from the D-Day operation. How did you feel then about the –?
BH: Well then we heard the story in the papers and different things. What had happened?
DK: Yeah.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your operations then were all in 1944 were they or -?
BH: No.
DK: ’43. ’44.
BH: Mostly I think, I don’t think, early ‘44 and we mainly went into ‘45 as well.
DK: Right.
BH: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: So your thirty fifth operation was –
BH: Yeah.
DK: Was in 1945 then. And that’s when you were taken off operations.
BH: Yeah. It was very sudden. You know we went to bed that night. No knowledge of finishing.
DK: Right.
BH: The next day we was on the train to Yorkshire.
DK: How did you feel then knowing you didn’t have to do any more operations?
BH: Well we didn’t know exactly then but we had a good idea that was it.
DK: Yeah.
BH: That we wouldn’t be recalled and that kind of thing and we went up to that big place in Yorkshire near Darlington. There’s army there, the navy and air force. I forget the station name now. We all went there and that’s where we split up. Some went that way and some went that way and so on and as I say I went to Inverness.
DK: Yeah. Ok. I’ll, I’ll stop that there.
[machine paused]
DK: I’ll just put that back on. I noticed here 199 Squadron was part of 100 Group.
BH: Yes.
DK: So what was special about 100 Group?
BH: I don’t really know. Whether was the area where, like around here was all 3 Group. Mildenhall was headquarters for 3 Group. In Yorkshire it were 4 Group.
DK: Yeah.
BH: What was it in Lincoln? 5.
DK: 5.
BH: Yeah.
DK: 5 and 1. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: So 100 Group. Did they do anything out of the ordinary? Or -?
BH: Well not really. We dropped mines and bombs and we also did Window which is where you went and dropped the Window in front of the main force. As they come behind you you dropped all this stuff to divert the Germans again.
DK: Yeah.
BH: More or less what happened on D-Day. Similar thing.
DK: To disrupt the German radar.
BH: Well that’s –
DK: Yeah.
BH: That was the idea.
DK: The idea. Yeah.
BH: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BH: Probably did work but probably not all the time.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bernie How
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-16
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHowB161116, PHowB1601
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:34:17 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bernie How was 14 when war was declared and remembers aircrew socialising at his father's pub. He volunteered for the RAF at 17 and trained as a flight engineer on Stirlings. He describes a crash on take-off in a Stirling. He completed 35 operations, initially on Stirlings and later on Halifaxes flying from RAF North Creake with 199 Squadron. His operations included mine laying, bombing over Germany and patrols over the Channel dropping Window as part of the Normandy campaign. After their pilot was thought to have panicked during an operation, he and his crew were suddenly taken off operations. He then served in air control prior to demobilisation in 1945. He discusses his crew and how they kept in touch, attending reunions for many years.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Plauen
Wales--Glamorgan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carolyn Emery
199 Squadron
aircrew
crash
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Lakenheath
RAF North Creake
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
RAF Wratting Common
Stirling
take-off crash
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/605/8874/PMatthewsEH1501.2.jpg
07bb41282e142374781bf2112f1129de
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/605/8874/AMatthewsEH151013.1.mp3
dc51483b34648765b1e7054ad5ee5c36
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Matthews, Edward Harry
E H Matthews
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Matthews, EH
Description
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Five items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Edward 'Ted' Matthews (1925 - 2017, 1899046 Royal Air Force), his log book flight engineer's course notebook and photographs. He flew operations as flight engineer with 77 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff and Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2015-10-13
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: Today we’re in Haddenham and speaking with Edward Harry Matthews ‘Ted’ about his experiences as a flight engineer with 77 Squadron. My name is Chris Brockbank and I’m accompanied by Mr Edward Andrews as a witness. Ted, where did you — where were you born? How did life run for you in your early days and then right through to your retirement?
EM: I was born in Worthing. My father was a manager of a gent’s outfitter. We were fairly well off in those days but coming up to the war we — dad was made redundant and we had to move to South Norwood. When I was there the school I went to was Stanley Technical College which I went to until I was fourteen. From there I got a job with the Croydon Technical College as a lab assistant. But again, dad had to move his job and we came to Esher where I went to work for the Admiralty research as a lab assistant in the ASDIC and fire control of ships. It was from there I joined the air force. I was about coming up to eighteen so I would have had to have joined by conscription. I volunteered for aircrew and after the interview in — I think it was Euston Road they said, ‘Ok. You can be a flight engineer.’ I returned to my job for a few months and I was sent then, when I joined the air force, to St John’s Wood. The aircrew reception for the square bashing, more tests and kitting out. Three weeks there and I went to Newquay on ITW for six weeks. From there I went to Locking for introduction to aircraft engineering. It was Locking near Weston Super Mare. Having completed that course I was then sent to St Athans for the major course. I passed out there fairly well and I was, had a few weeks [pause] well flying training in Oxfords and even in Tiger Moths. From there I was sent to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Riccall. I met with my skipper at a rather different way from the usual. His flight engineer was taken sick and during a flight with him he had engine trouble and I managed to sort it out. And after that he decided I was going to be his flight engineer. Well, just after Christmas we were sent to 77 Squadron. The first raid being to mines, a daylight. A fairly busy sort of raid. Not too hectic. Nothing much. From there the next one –
[pause]
CB: Just looking in your logbook.
EM: The next one was Cologne. Another daylight. That was interesting because we were told not to hit the cathedral there. We were there to aim at the bridges over the Rhine. Our bomb aimer, as we were coming up said, ‘Oh I think I can hit those bridges. I can put my bombs straight through between the two spires,’ [laughs] but I don’t think we did hit the bridges. We missed them [laughs] but we shook them up I believe. After that we had a night raid to the Ruhr to Kamen which was an oil dump. Now, this one really got exciting. This was the one where we came back and when we were approaching landing — on the radio we were told there were intruders around. So, the skipper told the gunners to stay in place. It’s just as well he did because as we were approaching the circuit there was a JU188 coming the other way. And following that we had a dogfight from over Full Sutton all the way up to Croft where we’d been diverted. At Croft he disappeared for a while so we managed to land which was just as well because we were so low in fuel another — almost minutes, we’d have run out. We landed. I went back and locked the controls and while I was in locking the controls the others had got out and were sort of having five minutes. But while I was in there I heard this terrific noise. Bang and aircraft engines. I looked out and there they were running down the peritrack being chased by this JU188. They found a sort of dug out at the side of the runway and jumped into it and they were up to their knees in mud and water. Very unpleasant. Anyway, we were, we were lucky. We got away with it. This was the part of what the Germans called Operation Gisela. There was the three operations they did. About nine hundred aircraft flew in with us in the bomber stream. It was their last sort of major and during this time on that raid we’d lost seven aircraft but with these intruders they shot down another twenty eight. And they sent similar raids the following two nights but nowhere near as successful. They only got one or two but they never did it again. That’s one of the hair-raising ones.
CB: Why was it that they were less successful on the second raid? Were — were the gunners more alert? Or what was it? Why were they more —why were there less casualties on the second and third raids?
EM: Well, I think mainly because one — they did it for some Americans and they did it again but I think our people were a bit understanding and guessed it might happen again and we were warned. They did get one or two.
CB: Right.
EM: But it’s quite a bit of history that one.
CB: Yeah.
EM: Because one or two of theirs were shot down and one crashed into a farm near York killing the farmer and his family.
CB: What other excitements did you have?
EM: The next raid I did was to Helmstedt which was fairly hectic in the way of anti-aircraft fire but we got away with that one. Another nasty one was when I went to Dortmund and Wuppertal. Or was it? Yeah. The other night raid where it was dodgy was to a place called Witten where we got a direct hit into one of the outboard engines. The starboard engine. We were just coming into the target and it blew the engine to pieces with bits flying everywhere. As we had a full bomb load on it we were just about keeping height but we managed to attack the target and get home, nursing it a bit. We did find on the way back that the starboard inner engine had been damaged as well. So, we came back on two and a half engines if you like. But by nursing it we got back ok.
CB: When the engines were hit what was your job? Ted.
EM: Another one. We went to Recklinghausen. That was in, that was a daylight but I can tell an interesting story about this one. We couldn’t, we didn’t drop any bombs on it because we just couldn’t see a thing. But on the way back the bomb aimer was in the nose and in a space in the woods he saw some railway lines up near the Dutch border. So, thinks. We go around and have a look. So, the skipper says, ‘Oh let’s put one down there and see what happens.’ We did. We thought the earth had fallen in. Well, we didn’t know what it was. No one knew what it was. But when I was working at Westcott I had to go to Germany and I was looking at some of their rockets. I had to go to this ammunition dump near the Dutch border where they were still digging out bits and pieces then. And I was talking to one of the sergeants there. I said, ‘What happened?’ He said, ‘We had one single aircraft come over and drop one bomb and it hit a munitions train that was due to go to the Russian front.’ And he said, ‘There’s still bodies in there.’ It was enormous.
CB: Fascinating.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
EM: I — my next interesting one is Osnabruck which was to hit the rail line there. Evidently it was extremely accurate but it was a daylight and we got hit in the bomb bay with a load of shrapnel which cut our hydraulic line and we couldn’t open, couldn’t shut the bomb bay. But I saw where it was and with some of the bits of rubbish I’d picked up — namely a piece of rubber tubing and some wire. I managed to slip it over the cut and we managed to shut the bomb bay doors. When we got back I managed to get the undercarriage down but the flaps wouldn’t come down. So, we were diverted to Croft and made that ok so —
CB: What was the significance of Croft?
EM: Pardon?
CB: What was the significance of Croft?
EM: Oh Croft. Sorry. Carnaby.
CB: Carnaby. Ok.
EM: Yeah.
CB: So, what was the —
EM: The big runways and that. As a matter of fact, on one of our night trips we were diverted there because of fog. It was very thick fog. We couldn’t see a thing but they had FIDO and I can tell you landing on FIDO, it’s like, well, you came across the flames and the plane rose and you had to put the nose down. You had to dive through it. Anyway, it was quite hair raising. I think the skipper was saying a few words. There’s one [pause] and then we come to Heligoland and Wangerooge. Just about the last ones. Heligoland was a daylight. It was quite a doddle that one. But we went to Wangerooge which was on the islands. Now, that — they were really, it was a beautiful clear day and they were really letting us have it with anti-aircraft guns. And in front of us there were two Halifaxes probably about a hundred yards apart and suddenly one of these got a burst of anti-aircraft gun under one wing which floated it over right into the other one and they collided. Two got out. There’s one trip that I did which was a most spectacular I’ve seen. And that was to an oil plant. Now, this oil plant was enormous. It had a series of huge spheres all containing fuel of some description and they were all in huge lines. One after the other. And we were loaded up with a mixture of explosive and incendiaries and we went in lower than usual to make sure we got them in line and we went down each line. Dropping, you know, a skein of bombs, you know. Anyway, the spectacular. We were low enough that we saw these spheres collapse and then they opened just like a tulip and at the centre was a huge flame coming up. It was quite, you know, if it wasn’t such a destructive thing it was almost a thing of beauty. But when we came back all the paint was scorched underneath [laughs] yeah. That’s, I think most of my operation.
CB: Could you feel the heat? Could you feel the heat from that?
EM: Pardon?
CB: Could you actually feel the heat in the aeroplane?
EM: Hmmn?
CB: Could you feel the heat of the oil plant explosion?
EM: Sorry I —
CB: The heat burnt the paint. Could you feel it?
EM: Oh, I wasn’t exactly scared. I was kept too busy. Well, for instance, when I went on to the squadron. At that time I wanted to get myself a degree when I left. So therefore, I got a correspondence course and when I was in the early part, when I was flying on ops the, say up to the coast and that I used to do my homework. You know. English. Maths. You know the typical matric as it was then. It, it did me fairly well. But —
CB: So, what about the other members of the crew? What were they like? Starting with the skipper. Who was he?
EM: The wireless operator. He was a lad from Glasgow. The Gorbals actually. A bit of a rum sort and I won’t —
CB: Who was he? What was his name?
EM: Oh dear. Tom.
CB: Never mind. We’ll come back to that.
EM: No. I can’t. The skipper’s name was Bingham.
[pause]
CB: Right. A picture of the crew we’re looking at. Ok.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
EM: They — I can’t remember all their names. Our rear gunner, at that stage, was a Canadian. An ex-cowboy. How he got into that rear turret I shall never ever know. If I can put it bluntly he was built like a brick outhouse. You know.
CB: Yeah.
EM: But there’s a funny story about that if you want funny stories.
CB: Go on. Go on. Go on.
EM: On one of the raids. I can’t really put a finger to it. There was a sudden shout, ‘I’ve been hit. I’ve been hit.’ From the rear turret. So, I went down and there he was [groaning]. And the seat is a thick piece of aluminium with wood underneath. And there sticking up through it, about like that, was a piece of shrapnel. Gone right up between the cheeks. Well, anyway the funny part is the doctor gave him some ointment to rub in. Well he couldn’t reach it. So, we got the job of every night rubbing it [laughs]
CB: Amazing.
EM: Yeah. Is it stories you want?
CB: Yeah. Keep it going.
EM: Yeah. The bomb aimer. He came from Hersham. His wife was a hairdresser. I found he was — I didn’t get on well with him. The navigator. He was a Canadian. The mid-upper gunner was a bloke about my age. An ex-miner from Wakefield. We did lose one gunner. It was, he hadn’t even been on a raid. He went on a spare crew. My skipper was Flight Lieutenant Bingham. John Bingham. He’d been a training instructor out in America for a while before he came back and took over this job as, on Bomber Command. He could be a bit of a pompous so and so. You know. A real strict disciplinarian. But on the other hand, that made him a good pilot. He was a good pilot whatever anyone says. What else?
CB: So, the mid-upper gunner.
EM: Mid upper gunner. That was the lad from Wakefield.
CB: What was his name?
EM: His name was Mounty so we used to call him Lofty. And he wasn’t a big bloke [laughs] [pause] Somewhere or other — I don’t know if I’ve got their names.
CB: Well let’s come back to those later. Could you just go back a bit now? No. Sorry. How many operations did you complete in the end?
EM: I did — what was it? I did fifteen.
CB: Ok. And what stopped operations? Was it the end of the war?
EM: Pardon?
CB: What stopped you going on operations? Was it the end of the war? Or what was it?
EM: Well the reason I didn’t go for a commission — I was recommended. I went for an interview but I made a silly mistake. I told them, when they asked me what I was going to do after the war I said, ‘I want to go to university. Get a degree.’ That was it.
CB: They didn’t like that.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Right. So, you stopped flying when? When did you stop flying?
EM: Oh, it was around about September ‘45. Until then I was, we were engaged in taking all the old ammunition, bombs and that from the various airfields around and dumping them in the North Sea.
CB: Right. Where did you do that? Where? Where?
EM: Well we were stationed still at Full Sutton but we did places like Snaith and all the surrounding airfields that had got bombs. We used to, for instance, they used to put the bombs in the bomb bays of course but where it was machine gun ammunition they just piled it in the, by the back door and I used to go and kick it out. You know, open the door and out. But that was — we did quite a few of those.
CB: Ok. Now after you finished flying then on operations you dropped the bombs in the North Sea. Then what did you do?
EM: There was all sorts of jobs while I was waiting to take another course. Another business. But eventually I went back to St Athans and took a safety course. Mainly packing parachutes, safety equipment. That sort of thing. When I’d finished that I was sent to Germany. To Fassburg. Which was just outside Belsen. Which was unpleasant. It was there I managed to take the two exams I’d been working on. I got all sorts of jobs there. It was on a Maintenance Unit where we used to go around to various stations and re-pack their chutes or look at their — as well as advise them on safety equipment. And from there I was demobbed and came back to England. From there I was on leave for a while when I applied to go to a university but they said, ‘Oh you’re too late. The regulations have run out.’ So, what happens? I go back to evening class and get a job with Bayer Products as a lab assistant. At the same time, I managed to pick up on the government job I was working with and I got [pause] they took me on as a scientific assistant making chemical warfare agents.
CB: Where was that?
EM: This was up in Lancashire where I met my wife. At Sutton Oak. And then I was transferred. They moved the whole lot of us down in to Cornwall where I was in the research labs making nerve gas and such. When that closed down I came up to Westcott and became a rocket engineer on solid propellants. Working mainly, quite often, on air to air missiles like Red Top for Lightning, Sky Flash for the Tornado and working on materials for high temperatures. And that’s when I sort of became me and became retired afterwards.
CB: So how long did you work at Westcott for?
EM: Thirty five years. In fact, you might see my footprints somewhere around.
CB: Sounds interesting.
EM: Yeah. It was in solid propellant division.
CB: Right. So, did you work your way up there or what happened?
EM: Well, I ended up there as a senior scientific officer.
CB: Right.
EM: I did — I did some flight tests on a missile in a Lightning. I got taken up in a Lightning to do some tests from a valley.
CB: Oh, did you? Right.
EM: Oh, this would be — I can’t give you a date. It’s [pause] oh no, I can’t. I’d be [pause] I think I’d be almost be pulling your leg if I gave you a date.
CB: So, was this as a jolly or a practical observation you were doing? Was it an enjoyment flight or were you doing it as an observation?
EM: Oh no. it was busy. It was, they wanted, they wanted me to — they were doing some of the tests and I had to observe. Something strange was happening and they wanted me to have a look. See if I could sort it out.
CB: This is the rocket motors was it?
EM: It was the sort of thing — you see when you launch a rocket you get such a spread of strange mixture of gasses.
CB: Yeah.
EM: That as it goes out in front they go in to the air intake of the plane and they often cause a hiccup and we wanted to find out whether that was doing it. So apart from having instruments they needed someone to actually observe the instruments and see what was happening visually.
CB: Right.
EM: Yeah. It was rather funny. The pilots had a bet. Thinking I was a dumb scientist. They didn’t know I’d been on ops and they had a bet to find out whether they could make me airsick [laughs]
CB: So, you put them right in the end, did you?
EM: Oh yeah. Yeah. I was bought beer all night [laughs]
CB: How interesting. Can we go back now? Can we go back to your early training?
EM: Yeah.
CB: So, what happened when you were being trained to begin with? What did they do about training in St Athan?
EM: Oh.
CB: What was involved?
EM: Well basically you went through — for the first few weeks you were put through quite a concentrated course on aircraft engineering. Getting very close to what you were going to do. After that you took the exam. You were then selected for an aircraft. I don’t know how they did it but I’d done some time on Lancs and Halifaxes and most went on Lancasters. I was selected for Halifaxes. As you know.
CB: Yeah.
EM: I did fly once or twice in Lancasters. That was more I think by luck, by judgement. They just wanted a flight engineer, you know. To get experience. They also, the idea, I think was that if after we’d done our ops we might go on to Lancs or something. But I’m just trying — but it was really a concentrated course. In fact, I wrote it all up here.
CB: Oh good. Ok. We’ll come to that in a minute. Can we just go now — so you get to the HCU? So, in the HCU what are you doing there?
EM: Well, we still kept, how can I put it, an interest in all the engineering and kept up to date. You know. With anything new that comes on. We flew with all sorts of varying skippers and crews to get the hang of it. And then of course at the same time the skippers were looking for flight engineers and as I say that was the way it happened for me.
CB: Because normally crews had crewed up at the OTU and then added a flight engineer. But in your case, you went with several different crews.
EM: Yeah. Yeah. The lad I took over from. I don’t know whether he was glad to get away from the crew or not but he was terribly airsick. You know, it wasn’t a case of not liking it or not wanting it. He was so bad that after one flight they [hoist?] the ambulance out to him. He was actually, you know, really–
CB: What had happened to him then?
EM: Well he was so sick. You know. Terribly airsick you know. You know, he was absolutely useless once he got going and that was after, you know, just two or three flights. It steadily got worse.
CB: Did it? Yeah. So, when he was flying what did he do?
EM: Well he vomited a lot. He was very giddy and that sort of thing. As I say, this time he really collapsed. So, well they couldn’t have him. I don’t know what happened to him. Whether they had him lack of moral fibre but he just disappeared.
CB: Well, what do you think about the LMF matter?
EM: It was most unfair.
CB: Go on.
EM: It was. I mean of course you were blooming scared. It [pause] it made you work that bit harder and made you do the things properly and harder but looking back I’m sure that they were being very cruel in many cases.
CB: You say many cases. So how many people did you know about who were dealt with under LMF.
EM: I only came across really one. But he’d already done half a dozen ops and some nasty ones and had a bit of a rough time. I think that was a case that was a bit cruel because after all he had done some ops. He’d proved himself. They didn’t seem to realise this sort of thing.
CB: In what way had he proved himself on those operations would you say?
EM: Well, he, as I say he’d done a half a dozen ops. He’d done exactly what was asked of him.
CB: By whom?
EM: And it was only just [pause] well, the only other thing. He’d been married recently. Whether that? Yeah. Yeah. That might well have been the case but honestly, I wouldn’t like to judge anyone.
CB: What was the reaction of the crew to what he was doing?
EM: Well one or two of them were down on him but I can’t really be certain on that one but some, again some were with him. But it’s understandable if you had a bad time and you’ve got responsibilities at home. And there was — the thing is there was one case. On one of the night raids I was on I must admit it gave me the shivers. We were going into the target and the master bomber said, ‘Christ I’ve been hit.’ And up ahead, not far ahead, there was a little flash of flame and he’d left his mic on and he screamed all the way into the ground.
CB: Good lord.
EM: And I think that might have frightened a lot of folk too. I know it sent cold shivers up my back because you heard him screaming all the way down and suddenly there was a flash and it went quiet.
CB: But no sound from any other members of his crew.
EM: But that —I think there was always a little feeling that if you were going to go you prayed to God let it be quick.
CB: Yeah.
EM: I know that was always my feeling. It —
CB: What height were you operating? What height? How high up were you operating then?
EM: Well, often at twenty thousand. Occasionally we, like several of the raids we came down to ten. And I think the other thing that made you a bit creepy was when you were going into the target and the master bomber says, ‘Oh don’t bomb. Come down to twenty. Angels ten. Angels ten.’ And you’d have to circle right down.
CB: To get down.
EM: Going down through the bomber stream and then being in the target area for so long — that was a bit uncomfortable.
CB: Sounds a strange thing to do if everybody else is high. Why would he do that?
EM: Well quite often the target was obliterated for various reasons. And –
CB: By what?
EM: By perhaps smoke or something and the further down of course you could often see more. Or there was the other times you’d be told to circle over the target while they re-laid the markers. And you’d be over the target for two or three minutes at least.
CB: Really. Yeah.
EM: Again, something very nasty.
CB: Now, going back to in the aeroplane. What was your role? What did you do from when you got in the aeroplane to when it landed again? What were doing as the engineer?
EM: Well, basically when I first got in I’d have a check around over it. I’d start up the engines with the pilot. Then when we’d take off I’d set the, once we’d taken off I’d set the, reset the fuel tanks to — so that each engine — well let me put it this way. On take-off you had a tank for each engine. After you would take off and you were at level flight you just put one tank to two engines. The tank with the most in it. And then when you got towards the target you would then put one tank per engine. And then when you came out and you were coming back home steady you’d perhaps re-change the fuel arrangements. Perhaps fill up tanks one from another. Again put one tank per two engines. And then all that period you’d be logging what you were doing. You know. Where the fuel was going. How much fuel. Calculating it. Also, I’d be, I’d go around and inspect at regular intervals looking for things. And then the, as we were perhaps coming in towards the target we’d be dropping Window and it was my job to go and heave that out. Then the other thing of course was to go around checking regularly. I mean there was one case in the early part of a flight I went around and checked the [pause] what was happening and I found — you know the floodlight bomb.
CB: The flash.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. After the bomb, after the bombs had gone you sent the flash down.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. For the picture.
EM: The little propeller on the end was turning.
CB: Yeah.
EM: And, well, if it had gone on much further we would too. So, I got chewing gum on it and stopped it from going down. It worked out alright later but that’s the sort of thing. So much depended on you seeing it and noticing it. Flaws. Something I also did before we took off was to — when I knew we were going I used to go out to the dispersal and perhaps have a look. Go over the plane. Talk to the chiefy. Talk to the lads who were doing the repairs so that I had —well it was part of a good will mission and part of being certain that you knew that they knew the plane. That was the way it went.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok. Now, on take-off what was your role?
EM: I used to, some, on occasion I used to sit by the pilot but our bomb aimer, we took it in turns. But otherwise I just sat there and checked that the engines were operating correctly. And looking for trouble.
CB: When you came into land did you have a role there or were you in your safety seat?
EM: No. I used to just sit in my position and be there if I was wanted. There was not much I could do then except the odd time we had the — I was pumping like hell on the flaps and hydraulics trying to get them down but that’s about the only thing.
CB: Ok. And when you landed, when you eventually landed did you have to do some kind of check on the aircraft?
EM: Well, if I landed at my own airfield we’d just — the skipper and I would just chat with the chiefy. Tell him, you know, what we’d found. What had happened. But if it was to — we were sent to another airfield. Diverted. I’d speak to the ground crew. You know, give them the details and then if there was no, unless there was no one around I’d lock the controls and shut it up and then go and report to the engineering officer.
CB: So, could you describe why is it, why was it that you would lock the controls?
EM: Well.
CB: Once it was on the ground.
EM: Basically, I mean, if they weren’t locked if there was a breeze or a wind they’d flap and they’d damage. Otherwise you could be in trouble with them.
CB: As far as the ground crew were concerned what relationships did you have with them?
EM: Well with our own we had a very good one. We used to — I was in B Flight at 77 Squadron and we used to get together once a month or whenever we were free and take them for a beer and, you know, something to eat. It was fairly good relations. In fact, I can’t think of a better one.
CB: Good. And as far as debriefing was concerned. So, the aircraft is parked. You are all taken back to the intelligence officer for debriefing.
EM: Debriefing.
CB: What was your job to do there?
EM: What? Sorry?
CB: On debriefing.
EM: Yeah.
CB: What did you do?
EM: Well we just sit around with a mug of coffee. Smoking like hell. They’d just — everyone would have a little say of what we noticed or what we didn’t see. Anything strange. What had happened to us. What we’d seen on the — over the target. Anything new. Different. It was just standard report on what you’d done.
CB: How many times were you hit by enemy fire?
EM: Well, it was very rare that we didn’t come back with a hole somewhere. I believe, in ‘44 that people said, ‘Oh well you didn’t have night fighters.’ Well we did. But the flak was, I found on many occasions, was very heavy and what’s more it was pretty accurate. I’ve seen all sorts of reports but I’ve still got the feeling that on some of the more important targets it really was heavy and I can’t remember one where we didn’t come back with some hole or something there. You know, in fact there was one occasion there was a twang close to my ear and a piece of shrapnel had hit the hydraulics. The undercarriage lever. And the result was I got sprayed with hydraulic fluid before I could close it off. But that’s one problem. I must admit I stunk like heaven for weeks.
CB: Because?
EM: From the oils. Horrible smelling stuff.
CB: Yeah. Did you get attacked by fighters at any stage?
EM: Well, we, I did see some of, some of their jet fighters. There was one daylight where we saw one of their jet fighters. It came straight up through the stream. It wasn’t doing anything but it gave our gunners a wonderful bit of target practice. And it just went up and disappeared.
CB: What was that? Was that a twin engine was it? A 262. Was that a twin engine fighter? A 262.
EM: Yes. You didn’t get a good view of it that you could identify it but you could see the outline well enough and it sort of went through the stream more at an angle.
CB: And was it firing as it did it?
EM: Oh, it had fired. It didn’t hit anything.
CB: Was this in the daylight or at night? In the daylight.
EM: Daylight.
CB: Right. Ok.
EM: You know it was a clear day. You could see it easily.
CB: Yeah. Now –
[phone ringing]
CB: Ah. Changing the subject slightly. What about, hang on. What about Scarecrows? Did you get any of those and what did you know about them?
EM: Well, there were several discussions about that. I thought I saw one and I mentioned it. And they said, ‘No. Can’t.’
CB: Who did you mention that to? The debriefing or to the pilot?
EM: Well, I mentioned it to the pilot and I checked up at debriefing. And again, they said, ‘Oh. No.’
CB: What did you understand a Scarecrow was?
EM: Well, the way it was put to me and it’s why I thought it was one that it looked like a dummy aeroplane going down. But still today when I try to remember I’m not sure myself.
CB: So how did you identify what you thought was a Scarecrow? What did you see?
EM: Well, virtually it looked like a splash of flame and bits coming down from it, you know. It looked —
CB: So —
EM: But having seen planes in daylight being hit and going down. I mean, for instance there was one occasion where we were flying along and there was again a plane — say a hundred yards, two hundred yards away and it was surrounded by a massive shrapnel burst. Flak bursts. And the next minute he seemed to fold up and go down. Now, thinking back, I can’t be sure that that Scarecrow would look anything like.
CB: Right. So that was effectively because they bracketed.
EM: Yeah.
CB: So, what did you understand the term Scarecrow meant?
EM: Well I always got the feeling that the name itself described it. In other words, it was something they put up to make us think there were more being shot down then there was.
CB: Right. Did you ever find out what it really was? Ok. So –
EM: I’m curious if anyone knows.
CB: Right. So, the night fighters. A number of the night fighters were fitted with upward firing cannon. So, they would trace, they would follow the bomber having identified the one they wanted to track underneath from behind and then fire thirty millimetre or twenty millimetre cannon into the fuel tanks.
EM: Yeah, the musik.
CB: Schrage music.
EM: Yeah. Well there was an interesting thing about that too. On our squadron they cut the H2S blister in half. They removed the back half and inside the other shell they put a plank of wood and various other attachments and put a .5 Browning in. The gunner was held in by something like a climbing harness and a huge bungee that went to the back. I know this well because I was sat there and in fact on one raid I sat in it most of the way when I wasn’t pilot or flight engineering. And it was most cold and unpleasant.
CB: And the idea of that was to counter the night fighter.
EM: Yeah. But it didn’t last for long. They were — when, they certainly didn’t have them on the Mark 6 and the aircraft that did have them were [pause] well — put out to graze. They were [pause] they disappeared off the site. You know. I think that occasion was the last I saw of them.
CB: Right. Because it didn’t work? Or why?
EM: Oh, it worked because I believe there were a couple of blokes earlier in ‘45 ‘44 had used them and they did work. They — but I must admit I felt uncovered, uncomfortable when I was told I might have to sit there.
CB: ‘Cause the other gunners were busy as well.
EM: Pardon?
CB: The other gunners were busy.
EM: Oh yeah.
CB: So, they couldn’t sit there.
EM: Oh yes. Yes. We did, on — oh it was used again once but this time they put a proper gunner in there. Thank God. Talking of — there weren’t many fighter attacks in ’45 but I think there were the odd ones because I did remember seeing in the dark, way up there, one or two sights. It looked like fighters attacking but it was only once or twice at the most I saw that.
CB: What about corkscrews? Did you do many corkscrews? Did you do many corkscrews?
EM: Oh yeah. Yeah. When we would do – met the, well, the intruders we were corkscrewing all the way across Yorkshire.
CB: At low level.
EM: Yeah. Yeah. I was stood there. That was quite, yeah. Not long ago I was up in Yorkshire and I met the, I was introduced to the Lord Mayor of the County and I told him about this and I said, ‘Well they haven’t sent me the bill yet.’ He said, ‘Oh they will do.’ [laughs]
CB: Just changing to the crew really now because we’ve covered a lot of things. Thank you. What was the relationship with the crew? How did the crew get on together?
EM: A bit mixed. The Canadians got on well together. The one bloke I felt was a bit of a sore thumb was the bomb aimer. I think he thought he was a bit something different. I didn’t define. We got on. We did the job together. We did what we could together and we worked together. But the blokes I rather liked were the Canadians, the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator. In fact, the wireless operator — I visited him at his home on one occasion. But it was a very, it was friendly but occasionally remote. It wasn’t the sort of crew you would have, that people would always go on about on the radio. We tended to be a bit separate.
CB: Was it a mixture of commissioned and NCOs or all NCOs?
EM: Well the bomb aimer got a commission but the rest of us —oh the Canadian navigator —he was a flying officer. The skipper was a flight lieutenant. Later becoming a squadron leader. The bomb aimer became a pilot officer and he let us know. He was that sort of bloke, you know. But we all got on well as I say doing the job. Doing the job we was there.
CB: But not socially. Socially was different.
EM: Yeah. Outside we used to have an occasional drink together and, in the mess, we used to be quite friendly. And we were in the same nissen hut. So, it was good will. There was no bad.
CB: Right.
EM: Particularly when we had to deal with the rear gunner’s rear end.
CB: Right.
EM: But oh no it was [pause] you couldn’t have wished to have been worse. They weren’t, there was nothing wrong with them. It was just that I don’t think we gelled, you know, together that well. We were good friends but after that no.
CB: It wasn’t really a family.
EM: No.
CB: Which so many crews were.
EM: Pardon?
CB: Many crews were families. They were families of people weren’t they?
EM: No. There was no sort of family feeling.
CB: No.
EM: It was just friends.
CB: And did you –
EM: It was a team doing a job.
CB: Yeah. Did you socialise at all with the ground crew? Did you socialise at all with the ground crew?
EM: Well, nothing serious. I think the wireless operator was the only one. We went out with young ladies together. And he’d pinch mine more often. But he was alright. As I say I met his family and I got, had a very good weekend with them. I think he was the closest I got.
CB: So, was it a difficult situation to leave the RAF or did it not matter?
EM: Well —
CB: Or did you look forward to it?
EM: I didn’t really want to join the RAF. I had my own ambitions as to what I wanted to do after the war which was to go into research science. And I think that was the main thing.
CB: Why did you join the RAF in the first place rather than the navy or the army?
EM: Well, my dad had been in the First World War. Started out as — in the artillery. From there he graduated to observer in balloons. From there he graduated as an observer in RE8s. And towards the end of the war they selected him as a pilot and he ended, he ended up on the last day of the war sitting in the cockpit of an SE5.
CB: Oh. Did he?
EM: But having said that I’ve always been interested in flying. Whether it was model aeroplanes. And in fact, behind our house in Worthing there was a big field and Alan Cobham used to have his Flying Circus there. And occasionally I’d nip over there and join them and run errands for them. For the, for the treat they used to give me a flight in an Avro Tutor or something. Or one of their old planes. Occasionally they let me tighten up a nut and bolt [laughs] [unclear]. So, what else could I do? I mean it had to be. Apart from that I didn’t fancy marching all over the place. If I was going to do it I was going to do it in luxury. If you call it that.
CB: When [pause] when you were on operations how did you feel about what you were doing?
EM: Well, something else. When we were in South Norwood it was in the Blitz and we got bombed more times than enough because we, where we were living there was Norwood Junction right behind and there was anti-aircraft guns going up. There were loads of bombs going down. And the result I saw all the blitz so when it came my turn I wasn’t too [pause] but on the other hand the thing that I wasn’t happy about killing folk and things like that. I felt there was a bit of a conscience there but it was — but that all changed when the things I went and saw in Germany afterwards. Like Belsen. And I thought, I think basically my feeling was — ok it’s a job that’s got to be done and if we don’t do it they’ll have us in a most unpleasant way.
CB: Ok.
EM: But —
CB: The same for all of the crew or did they feel differently? What did the rest of the crew feel?
EM: I think they were much of a muchness. It was a job that had to be done. Not a very nice job. I mean like putting down a pet dog that’s got rabies. I mean you might like the dog but it’s got to go.
CB: That’s been really interesting and really helpful. It’s Tuesday the 13th of October. And thank you very much Ted.
EM: Oh well I hope it’s been interesting.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Edward Harry Matthews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMatthewsEH151013
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:19:57 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
With an interest in flying after experiencing Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus, Ted volunteered for aircrew. He went to the Air Crew Reception Centre at St John’s Wood, followed by Newquay on the Initial Training Wing. Ted proceeded to RAF Locking for an introduction to aircraft engineering. He did a more concentrated course at RAF St Athan and flew Oxfords and Tiger Moths. Ted went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall. He replaced a flight engineer in another crew and joined 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton, flying Halifaxes.
Ted carried out 15 operations. The first two were daylight ones to Mainz and Cologne. The third was a night operation to Kamen on the Ruhr and they encountered an intruder JU188 aircraft when landing, as part of the German Operation Gisela. Other operations included Helmstedt with anti-aircraft fire; Dortmund; Wuppertal; Witten where they were hit on the starboard engine; Recklinghausen where bombs dropped on a munitions train instead of their target; in Osnabrück they were hit in the bomb bay by shrapnel; Heligoland and Wangerooge saw two Halifaxes collide mid-air. Ted describes the spectacle of lines of fuel on fire in an oil plant.
Ted discusses in detail his role as a flight engineer.
Ted stopped flying in September 1945. He dropped old ammunition and bombs in the North Sea and did a safety course at RAF St Athan. He was sent to a maintenance unit in Faßberg, near Belsen, and was demobilised. He became a government Senior Scientific Officer.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Somerset
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Soltau
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Helmstedt
Germany--Kamen
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Recklinghausen (Münster)
Germany--Wangerooge Island
Germany--Witten
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-09
77 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
fear
FIDO
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Ju 88
Master Bomber
mid-air collision
military service conditions
mine laying
Oxford
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Locking
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/PMotterheadN1501.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/PMottersheadN1504.1.jpg
b581a06e8e60fa9f61b82d95c8c5526d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/613/8882/AMotterheadN150719.2.mp3
ee7de033ffb55e3132da3953f9123f73
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mottershead, Bluey
Nevil Mottershead
N Mottershead
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mottershead, N
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader 'Bluey' Mottershead DFC (b. 1922, Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a pilot with 158 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok. So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is me, Annie Moody and the interviewee is Bluey Mottershead. And the interview is taking place at Mr Mottershead’s home in Brailsford on the 19th of July 2015. So, off you go. Tell me a little bit about your, your childhood.
NM: Yes.
AM: And leading up to why you decided to join the RAF, Bluey?
NM: Well, I was born on a farm in Shropshire. I was the sixth child of my parents but they had lost two previous to me arriving on the scene and therefore, when I arrived I was treated something special. And that special has been with me all my life. And my best friend from my youth, in my youth, was also, had joined the Royal Air Force for aircrew duties and he was in a place called Honington. On a live station in Suffolk. And while they were taking a NAAFI break a bomber came over, dropped a bomb, hit the NAAFI and killed four of them. And then thereafter I was stood in the churchyard of my village while they were burying him. There went the past and so —
AM: What age would you be then Bluey?
NM: Eighteen.
AM: You were eighteen.
NM: And so, when it came around to the January after Christmas I thought I have got to go and revenge for my friend. And so, on the 18th — on the 8th of January 1942 I went to Shrewsbury and signed up for aircrew duties and I became nineteen at the end of that particular week. And so I was sent home on what they called deferred service following the medicals that I had at Shrewsbury and going to Cardington for forty eight hours to have the medicals there. And when I returned I received this letter from the Air Ministry, shall we say, saying, ‘You are now going home on deferred service and we will call you when we’re ready.’ Well, I thought that date would never come but anyway, eventually I received information from them which said report to Lord’s Cricket Ground on the 7th July 1941. No. That would be wrong. No. 1941 it was.
AM: ‘41.
NM: And there was hundreds of us there. All from over the country. The same men who had been on deferred service and they were all called together to the, to Lords Cricket Ground. And then were allocated sleeping accommodation in St Johns Wood. In a lovely place called Viceroy Court. And we were lying on palliases on the floor and there was no furniture but quite obviously the flats would be luxury flats. And having done that they decided right we can’t keep all these men here. It would be rather dangerous. There were thousands of us in a very small area and if the Germans had got to know, then bombed the area they’d have killed thousands of us. And they decided to send parties of us out and I was sent to Scampton. Just the job. And of course Scampton was a live station and we were all very interested to watch these Hampdens and things taking off. The Hampdens I didn’t care two hoots for. In fact, I did go to one of the satellites of Scampton and had a ride in one which I didn’t think was fit for purpose. And so when that was over came back to St Johns Wood which was called ACRC.
AM: What did you actually do at Scampton? Did you just —
NM: Oh just normal.
AM: Square bashing.
NM: Square bashing and all sort of things connected with the air [pause] I’m sorry. My –
AM: Oh don’t worry.
NM: Identification of aircraft and all that sort of thing, you see.
AM: Right.
NM: But anyway we were shipped back, back to ACRC at St John’s Wood and from there I was sent to Newquay in Cornwall for my ITW. Now, having completed all that we then were sent to a little airfield by High Wycombe called Booker and there we were introduced to the Tiger Moth. And I had a very senior flight lieutenant, old flight lieutenant as my teacher sort of thing. And he and I got on very well and in the end I discovered afterwards that having been sent on for the next stage I’d never gone solo in this Tiger Moth. I’d flown it time enough again with him in there. So, then the time came they said, ‘Right. Off you go home. Take a bit of leave at Christmas and report to —' a place at Manchester. A park. Something.
AM: Heaton. Heaton Park.
NM: Heaton Park. Heaton Park. There once again there was thousands of us and we were billeted out and I was billeted with a family — together with a friend of mine, Ron Champion and we were there. And funny things happened which don’t, have nothing to do with my life’s —
AM: Oh no. Tell us. Tell us.
NM: We [pause] there was a small area within the park itself was RAF property. And outside that, outside that we were ourselves again and of course we were staying with these people. Well, one young lad was seen walking around outside the RAF area after midnight. And so of course they called him in and said, ‘What’s the problem?’ He said, ‘Well, my landlady keeps getting in bed with me.’ And [laughs] do you know there must, must have been fifty or so had been there before and they never said a word and he had to go and let the cat out of the bag. After completing all that of course it was decided because we had not got the facilities in this country to train two thousand pilots and so it was decided to send us overseas and I was very fortunate in as much as in the January 1942 we sailed out of Liverpool for Halifax, Nova Scotia. And I do not recommend being in a smaller boat crossing the Atlantic at that time of the year. There was a little, a Polish destroyer with us and he kept disappearing out of sight and coming up the other side. How the hell they kept stuff in their whatever they call them. Where they keep — do all the food for them. I can’t remember.
AM: The galley.
NM: The galley. And anyway one or two of them the first morning out — the boat we were [pause] I think it was lunchtime. No. It had got to be morning and the boat did this. Twice.
AM: Rocking about in the sea.
NM: And everything on the table went whoosh in to a ruck on the floor. Well half of them looked at it and since they were little bit of somehow or other being affected by being at sea half of them went [laughs] went missing the next, the next day and boy could I eat, and I ate everything that came in front of me.
AM: You were not seasick then.
NM: No. No. It didn’t trouble me one little bit and then having landed we got on the train and went to Moncton. The PDSI. Personnel department of the –whatever it is. I can’t remember. And there we stayed. And one of the lads on the boat —I said, I said to him, ‘Shall we go to St George’s Church tonight? To the service.’ And he said, ‘Yes.’ So we went to the service and there we made friends with a family and I’ve been in touch with that family right after the war and they came and stayed with me. How wonderful things are. And then it was decided then we were ready and we were going to be shipped down to the United States. So, we got on a train and we were on that train for two days and three nights. It stopped at Toronto and I managed to get somebody on the train to contact my cousin in Toronto and he was, he came to the train to see me. Well I didn’t know him because he was in uniform and the last time I’d seen him he was in civvies. And he didn’t know me because I was in uniform. But nevertheless it went ok and on we went down into, into Georgia. Turner Field, Georgia. After a short time there they divided us up and I was sent in to, in to Lakeland in Florida.
AM: Yeah. We’re ok.
NM: Yeah. Lakeland in Florida.
AM: Actually. [pause] Ok. I think we’re ok.
NM: And then we were flying Stearmans and having completed what was necessary we were then shipped to Macon in Georgia to fly in the second stage. They called it Advanced Flying School. And we were flying multi —whatever the plane was called. I ought to have my logbook here. That would have helped a great deal. But nevertheless we were flying. And I was very lucky that the instructor that I got was, had been a pupil himself in class 42a and I was in class 42i. We had reached that stage there were so many classes. And we did all the necessary and then we were passed on to Valdosta which was Advanced Flying School. And there we were flying twin engines. Three types of twin engine as well as the A6 which we called [pause] we called the Harvard. And my instructor was an American lieutenant and so he said, ‘Come on Mottershead. We’re going in the Harvard today.’ So off we go and get in this Harvard. And he said, ‘Right. Do the checks.’ So, I did the check. ‘Ok. Taxi around and take off.’ Everything alright, but my right wing was down, and my left wing was up there and I couldn’t get the damned thing right. I thought what have I not done? And I realised the lock that was in the joystick — I hadn’t pulled it out [laughs] so then the wing came up and everything was nice. He said, ‘I shouldn’t do that again if I was you. Watch it in future.’ [laughs] And got back and landed and he said, ‘Right. Off you go and fly it yourself.’ So I did do. And it was a beautiful aircraft to fly. It touched down on all three wheels. No trouble at all. So, having completed there we then on the, in the October, came up for our papers of authority as being a pilot under the United States Army Air Force and I’ve got my silver type wings. The American wings. Then it was a case of I went before a board of four senior American officers and they looked at all my paperwork and said, ‘Would you like to stay behind and teach future classes of UK,’ and because of something that had happened while I was at Macon, Georgia I had to say, ‘I’m very sorry, but I can’t.’ I’ll tell you that separately. And so, on the train back to Macon —back to Moncton in New Brunswick of course I’d already made contact with the family, so I re-made the contact with this family and got on so wonderfully well but the main thing about being here in Britain and being over there was the fact that we were limited by ration books to XYZ whereas they —it was there for you to buy and eat etcetera. Marvellous. And of course, I could eat. There’s no argument about it. So, after a while they said, ‘Right,’ — get your knapsack, not your knapsack, the bag with all your bits and pieces in. ‘There’s a boat in for you.’ So, right, we got on the train, landed in Halifax and walked off on to the quay. You can say that again. A boat. It was the original Queen Elizabeth. Oh dear. And we got on board that feeling millionaires. But there was that many on from different countries and different regiments and all the rest of it. All coming across with one purpose in mind and that was to kill Nazism. And so, we crossed the Atlantic unescorted. Our liner was doing twenty six knots during the day and through the night she was doing thirty two ‘cause that gave it that little bit extra to get out where the Germans might well have figured out where we might be on such and such a time and so, one morning we woke up and we were in the Clyde.
AM: Just like that.
NM: Just like that. We’d gone through the boom and we were in the Clyde. So we had to then gather our things together and come down stairs after stairs ‘til we came to water level. And then we got on tugs which took us over to dry land and there was a train waiting for us to take us to [pause] well you’re asking me now [pause] well-known place up in Yorkshire anyway. And of course they said, ‘Right. Well you’re here now. Right. Take a bit of leave. You’ve been away three —six months.. Go and see your parents,’ etcetera which I did do and then I got notice, right —'Report to Little Rissington in Gloucestershire.’ And that’s where I was flying Oxfords. I had a little student tuition on the Oxford and then the instructor said, ‘Right. Mottershead go and get yourself some practice.’ Now –
AM: So how big was an Oxford? What?
NM: Oxford aircraft.
AM: Yeah. How big? How big was that?
NM: Twin engine.
AM: Right. Ok.
NM: The American when they open the throttles get hold of the throttles get hold of them and pull them back. We do this. Get behind the throttles and press them forward. So I was more or less getting the American system out of, out of use and back in. So he said, ‘Right Mottershead. Take that one and go and get a bit of flying yourself.’ So me — I flew at about two ninety. Something like that. And flew until I picked up the River Severn and I flew up the River Severn until I got to within a mile to where I lived and I flew around and around and around. And after a while I thought, right, well I’d better get back. In the meantime a front had moved in and I was above cloud. And I was flying down towards back in the general direction of Little Rissington and I did not know where I was. And I’ve got, I came up with —I shall either A) I can jump out with my parachute and let my aircraft go and crash in to something. Or B) I can go down through and hit something that I wouldn’t wish to hit like a church tower or something like that. And as I was pondering over it I looked on my port beam and there was an aircraft coming towards me and he passed in front of me and I said to myself, ‘If you know where you’re going I’m going with you.’ And I followed him and he, it was a, it was a radar station where —not radar. Signals and all the rest of it. At a place called Madeley near Hereford. And he landed and I landed after him. And so they just picked up the phone and rang Little Rissington, ‘One of your boys has touched down here.’ So he came over and I took off and followed him home. Went the day well. Having done all that I was then posted to Harwell where we had clapped out Wellingtons who’d done all the necessary they wanted to or at least they were wanted for and were in a clapped-out situation. And as we stood there we crewed up. I did not choose anybody. I just stood there.
AM: I was going to ask you about crewing up. How that went.
NM: I stood there, and they came and joined me. It was as easy as that.
AM: Yeah.
NM: Right.
AM: Together or in ones and twos?
NM: Well, I don’t whether they’d been talking with one lot over there and they looked at me and thought well I like the look of him and so they came over and joined me. So, I’d got everything except the flight engineer and the second gunner at that stage. Well, I didn’t stay at Harwell but I went to one of their satellites. A place we called Hampstead Norreys near Newbury and we were flying out of there. Well, we had been warned, ‘Don’t over shoot.’ Come in and land properly because there was a big pit, gravel pit at the end of the runway and people had gone in. Oh dear. The trouble. Anyway, we flew that and did all the necessaries and then having finished they said, ‘Right off you go home and get some leave and report to a place called Riccall,’ near –
AM: York.
NM: Yes. Selby. There we go, there we were introduced to the Halifax. Four engine bombers.
AM: So, you finish your training, you’ve got your crew and you’ve gone to Riccall. Have you been assigned to a squadron at this point?
NM: No. Not yet.
AM: Right. Ok.
NM: And there at Riccall I picked up a flight engineer and another gunner. And once again in latter years I said to the flight engineer, ‘How did you come to join me?’ He said ‘Well, I saw you standing there and I walked over and stood with you. It’s as easy as that.’ And so the same with the gunner. He came and joined me. And then of course on completion of that but before then the chief flying instructor at Riccall was called Harry Drummond. So, I got used, just used to flying the Halifax. He said, ‘Right, Mottershead take your crew and there’s, one of the planes over there. One of the Halibags. Take that and get a bit of flying hours in with them.’ Fair enough. Thank you very much and off we went. We got in this aircraft. Taxied around to the runway. Ok. Right. Open the throttle. I was belting down the runway and looked at my speedometer. I hadn’t got any. No speed. And it was too late to stop so I took off without it. And I flew without a speedometer around a time or two. And we tried to, what had happened we’d left the cover on the pitot head. Once again checking beforehand. We tried — first of all we opened the hatch in the front and tried to push it off and we couldn’t do anything like that. We couldn’t reach it. And so I switched on the heater and the heater wouldn’t burn it off. I thought, ‘Well, righto. Well, I’ve got you up here. You lads. I’d better get you down again.’ So, I said, ‘Right, we’re going in now.’ And I approached a little too fast because I didn’t want to stall and go in before I reached the runway. And so, I sort of hit the runway and bounced a little bit which wasn’t good for old Halifax bombers and whipped around and parked up where I’d taken it from and the crew got out. The wireless operator stood on the shoulders of the flight engineer, reached up and took the pitot head cover off just before Harry Drummond arrived around the corner. And he gave me a rollicking for landing the way I did but I didn’t tell him what had gone wrong. Went the day well again.
AM: Yeah.
NM: And so the day came that we had to go to Lissett. We were transferred to Lissett. Now, I think I’d probably heard of Lissett but we all went. There was Doug Cameron and his crew and myself and my crew. And of course, we had to get a bit of flying in together before we went on operations. I arrived there. Can you switch off a second, I’ll go and fetch —
[recording paused]
NM: Are you on?
AM: Ok. We’re back on.
NM: Right. I arrived at Lissett on the 15th of June 1943. And after a familiarisation on the 16th and the 17th — on the 21st was my first operation. To Krefeld. Now, all targets, as Bomber Command will tell you, have got searchlights and flak as well as fighters waiting to get hold of you. So, we went, went through the — etcetera. And poor Doug Cameron — a different story. I must tell you about him. Not on my record. And as a result, when we got back — you see a rear gunner never sees what’s ahead of him. He can only see what’s behind and he could see the fires in Krefeld burning thirty miles away. So when we arrived back at Lissett we went to the debriefing room and he said to me, ‘I’m not bloody going again.’ I said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘I am not bloody going again.’ And he was taken out and stripped straightaway of his brevet, sergeants and all the rest of it. What happened to him I don’t know but in, in hindsight he did me a very good turn. For they took my other gunner, mid-upper gunner from me and a couple of gunners had just completed a tour — a Canadian pilot’s tour of operations. But they needed another five runs themselves so, one of them related, the Groupie, said to — ‘Go around and see Mottershead. He’s looking for some gunners.’ And they came around to see me and we were discussing one thing or another. And I said, ‘Right. This is the position. My job is to fly that thing. And if you tell me to dive to port I shall dive to port. Don’t you worry about it. Everything you tell me I shall do.’ They said, ‘We’re in.’ And so they stayed with me for their five ops which cleared them. Then I got my original gunner back. Mid-upper gunner back.
AM: Mid-upper.
NM: Having lost the rear gunner. And then I had nineteen different gunners on my tour of operation which was must be a flaming record with the exception of perhaps a wing commander and that who had to grab a crew where he could get one.
AM: Why did they keep changing, Bluey?
NM: Well, I had to have gunners and they [pause] Smith and Edwards were the names of the two gunners were and we got on a like a mountain on fire and so it went on one after another. I went to Berlin on three occasions. I went to [pause] oh hell. Where’s the cathedral?
AM: Oh.
NM: We went —
AM: Dresden. Not Dresden.
NM: No. Cologne.
AM: Oh Cologne. Yeah.
NM: I went to Cologne on three occasions. I went to Mannheim on three occasions and in between all the other nights that we were bombing etcetera. On the second visit to Mannheim we were, people do not realise this, we were flying in complete darkness and other than the fact we saw markers ahead so the bomb aimer led us, led me to it, and he said, ‘Right. Bombs gone.’ Two or three seconds later there was such a hell of a bang. I said, ‘What the bloody hell was that?’ And what had happened an aircraft above us had dropped his load and hit my port inner engine. It sheared the blades off the engine. Off the propellers. And of course, the engine ran away and with it going like that it shook the plane as though it was really in trouble. Anyway, fortunately I’d got a very good flight engineer. He shut the engine down. Closed it down. Then he pumped all the fuel out of the tank nearest to the port inner across the wing to the tanks on the other side you see. Now, my reaction was, when that happened — stick the nose down let’s get out of here which I did do. Because the explosion had hit the Perspex around me on the port, especially on the port side and did other damage etcetera and so it was, we were down to five thousand feet before we could make headway. Now, everyone in Bomber Command will tell you if you are on your own flying at five thousand feet by heck you’ll soon have somebody on your tail. So, we were crossing and as we flew cross country in the dark I could see the lights of this town or city, whatever it was, I could see all the street lights because being under Nazi control they didn’t have to have a blackout. And so I said, ‘Right, get some Window ready in case the searchlights come up,’ etcetera. And we gave a dose of Window and they didn’t come on and we kept flying and I crossed —
AM: What’s Window?
NM: Window.
AM: What’s that mean?
NM: Slips of paper, silver backed paper.
AM: Oh yes.
NM: And that dropping by the millions fill their, their —
AM: The radar.
NM: The radar.
AM: The signal.
NM: What we call Grass.
AM: Yeah. Yeah.
NM: They couldn’t pick out what was what and [pause] where’d I got to —
AM: So, you’re on your way back.
NM: On our way back –
AM: You’ve seen all the lights.
NM: We crossed the coast and I said to the flight engineer, ‘What’s the fuel like?’ He said, ‘We’ve got enough to get back to Lissett.’ And so, we went back to Lissett. Now, the hydraulics on the Halifax is controlled by the port inner engine. The hydraulic. And I didn’t know whether my undercarriage was locked. So I called in and they said, ‘Right. Fly down the runway as low as you can, and we’ll put the searchlight on you and have a look at you.’ So, having done that they said, ‘Right. We think you’re locked in alright.’ I said, ‘Right.’ So I went around again and landed. Went the day well.
AM: Again.
NM: We were back home. And it went on until the last. My last trip was to Berlin on the 22nd of November 1943 and the Wing Commander Jock Calder was on that night. I feel sure he was on. So when we came, you know, came from our aircraft in to debriefing Jock said to me, ‘That’s it Bluey. No more.’ And that was the end of my tour. The end of my flying altogether. I never did fly anything else.
AM: Ever.
NM: Ever.
AM: DFC.
NM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I then, they decided they needed controllers for operating Oboe. Now, Oboe was controlling aircraft over Germany from, from either — the main station was in Norfolk. Winterton. Did you happen to see the programme last night on — it was all about the lighthouses turned into houses etcetera. And Winterton was the Cat station. Now there was another station down in Deal in Kent and that was called the Mouse station. And the Cat station was controlled — the Cat station controlled the pilot. The Mouse station was talking to the navigator, bomb aimer. We’re talking about Mosquitos. And so, he would, when he reached the area he wanted to he’d pick up our signal. If he was too near he had dots. If he was too far out he had dashes. He had to have a steady signal and kept flying at a distance from the station in Norfolk at a distance of say two hundred and fifty miles away. And if he kept flying he would complete a two hundred and fifty mile circuit all around us, you see. But [pause] so, I had to go down to Swanage to learn all about this Oboe business at a little place called Tilly Whim. Down there. They seemed to have a station of the same thing. So when we’d finished. Right. I had no say on where I was going and I was sent to Winterton in Norfolk. Not to the one in Kent. The next morning after I arrived there I walked into the signals office and there was a young lady on the teleprinter talking to headquarters for 8 Group. Headquarters at — I forget the name for the moment. On the tele — on the teleprinter. And when she’d finished she looked at me and I said, ‘You’re wearing too much makeup.’ I’d found my wife. So —
AM: What did she say back?
NM: She didn’t. She [laughs] she was, she was a WAAF, you see. Oh dear. Oh dear and then of course that went on until the war had finished and then they didn’t want anybody there then.
AM: So what exactly were you doing there, Bluey?
NM: I was watching the younger part of the air force. That they’d got everything set up alright. The distance and all that sort of thing. What was going on. And I was even taken from there and posted down in to Deal. The Cat station. For a while.
AM: The Cat one.
NM: Anyway, when the war was over we didn’t need either of them. And so of course I had met Kay and there we are, by hangs another tale. So, I was still in the air force and they decided well you’ve done a lot of link trainer flying. The link trainer aircraft in the dark. It’s a statutory thing but you’re all closed in. You can’t see what was going on. You had to fly by instruments. And so, I learned, I learned how to do that and they posted me first of all to Prestwick in Norfolk.
AM: In –
NM: In Ayrshire. To the airfield there well that was then being taken over to become the airfield for Glasgow.
AM: Yes.
NM: The main airfield. So, I was on there a very short time and they said, ‘Right. Well we’ll post you to Marham in Norfolk.’ And I was on the same thing but when I got there and set up everything and ready for pilots they said well the war’s over we don’t need to do this anymore. And so, the rest of my time I was doing all sorts of jobs. Particularly, orderly officer and all that sort of thing and then I reached the stage where I thought, ‘Right. Look. We’ve got to go ahead now. We’ve got civilian life ahead,’ and so my dear wife and I decided —
AM: So, you were married by this time.
NM: We were getting married then.
AM: Ok. Yeah. Sorry.
NM: The war had finished up. We had already arranged the marriage up in Lanarkshire because she was a Lanarkshire girl, for the 18th of August 1945. The war finished in the Far East the 15th of August 1945. And so, we went up there and got married and thereafter settled down and I didn’t quite know what to do. Like a lot of people who had been in the services it was difficult to know exactly what to do. Anyway, there was a company in Liverpool called Silcocks Animal Foods that supplied to farming communities and I’d been a farmer’s son. And the position I was in and a decent sort of looking fellow the Silcocks agent who used to, who went to Shropshire, covered Shropshire said, ‘Well why don’t you join us?’ And so, I made enquiries and I joined Silcocks. I was sent to Nuneaton under an agent who had been there years to help him and I did all the necessary. And then came a vacancy of an area in Derbyshire and so I was sent from there to Derbyshire and landed in Brailsford on the, in August 1952. Something like that. And settled down and I was going around the farms and of course they knew I was a flying type and at that time Brooke Bond had a certain types of cigarette. Not cigarettes but cards in the thing.
AM: Yes.
NM: And that helped me to get familiar with the families etcetera. Swapping and one thing and another. And I reached the stage where one Remembrance Sunday morning at Brailsford, after that Mr Cecil Dalton who ran Silkolene Lubricants at Belper said, ‘Neville, will you come and work for me?’ And I said, ‘Mr Cecil, I will come and work for you.’ And I went and worked for Silkolene Lubricants until I retired.
AM: Right.
NM: Good.
AM: Neville. It sounds funny to hear you called Neville. I always think of you as Bluey.
NM: Yeah. Well I’m still known as Bluey of course. As you know.
AM: Just tell me why you became called Bluey.
NM: Because of my hair. I had ginger red hair. Now, the Australians — those big kangaroos in Australia which have reddy brown hair were called Blues. And so, when the first Australian saw me he said, ‘Well you’re a Bluey.’ And that’s it.
AM: It stuck.
NM: And it’s been with me ever since.
AM: Can I ask you a little bit about the 158 Squadron Association.
NM: Yes.
AM: And you became chairman I think. Tell me a little about that.
NM: Yes. Well I started looking, I started when I came [pause] when I’d finished. Well as soon as I could, I can’t remember exactly, I decided to draw up a register of all those who had been with 158 Squadron and [pause] now I’m looking for something in particular. I think I left it next door. But it’s the book with all the names in. The complete crews. And I kept getting these names of these, of these people and inviting them. And so in 1989 I think it was I got the freedom of entry into this town of Bridlington for the squadron and that’s how it developed from there. And I’m still now president of the squadron until such time as I kick my boots and somebody else will take over.
AM: So, every year you go up to Lissett.
NM: Every time. Yes. Yes. Yes. Now I’ll —
AM: And what about the memorial? Tell me a little bit more about the memorial at Lissett.
NM: Yes.
AM: How did that come about?
NM: Well. After Lissett the old airfield became a farm. Belonged to a farmer. And the powers that be decided it would be the ideal site to put up wind generators. So they put up twelve wind generators on the old airfield. In the meantime, 158 — if you reverse those figure you’ve got 851 and that was the number of young people who were killed on that squadron alone. Eight hundred and fifty one. Eight hundred and fifty males and one female. The one female was a sergeant WAAF in the Met office and she’d never been in an aeroplane and she went on a flight with someone unscheduled just to show her what went on. The damned thing crashed on [pause] that Head that comes out north of Bridlington. Crashed there and killed the lot of them. And she was one of them. So there was eight hundred and fifty airmen, men, who were killed and one WAAF. And so, it was decided by the people who were going to put these generators up that they needed a memorial and of course we were behind it and said yes. And that memorial is still drawing people. Just as the Angel of the North drew people to see it so the one at Lissett. Is that still on? In fact, the other day, one of our members who lives up in the Wakefield area had been up there and gone to have a look at it. He said, ‘It looks awful,’ he said, ‘All we’ve got is stalks left.’ What happened is there are flowers which bloom.
AM: Yeah. There’s poppies there.
NM: And then it’s all left so that the seeds from that drop down to the ground and re –
AM: Yeah.
NM: Come alive again. And he went at the bad time of the year. So, when he rang again I said, ‘Look there’s nothing I can do about it. As much as I appreciate you ringing me and telling me. I know what its like. But,’ I said, ‘We have nobody in that area at all to do anything.’ But the locals do it. Anyway, I understood that they’d even called in the East Midlands, East Yorkshire organisation had called in people to go and have a clean up there.
AM: People.
NM: I hadn’t ordered it. They just went and did it.
AM: Excellent because it’s a lovely memorial isn’t it.
NM: It’s a lovely memorial. A friend of mine from Derbyshire whose funeral I attended this year — he always talked about me and us and I said, ‘Well take a run up there and have a look at the memorial yourself.’ So he, along with another couple and he and his wife went to see it and then I saw him a few days afterwards. I said, ‘What do you think of the memorial?’ And he said, ‘It’s a very very wonderful thing.’ He said, ‘I read every name on that memorial and yours wasn’t on it.’ [laughs] So, I said, ‘Well it won’t be will it? I’m still here.’
AM: Still here. They’re the ones that are not.
NM: He didn’t realise that you see. But it really is. Oh, and let me go and fetch something first.
[recording paused]
AM: So I’m looking at a picture of the first meeting of the Squadron Association.
NM: In 1947.
AM: Ok. Were you there? Are you on it?
NM: Yes. Yes. I’m on the back row. You’ll see me.
AM: Point. Point yourself out to me.
NM: This little chap here, look.
AM: Oh of course you are.
NM: And that was arranged by Scruffy Dale at — I forget the name of the place now. And we all turned up for this and that photograph was taken. And there’s all sorts of people on that photograph and I can — there’s no one left on that photograph as far as I’m concerned. Only me. All the rest are gone. Now, I want to show you this because this is what I’m working on.
AM: Bluey’s showing me the most beautiful tapestry. Is it tapestry or cross stitch?
NM: No. It’s tapestry.
AM: Tapestry of the Halifax and —
NM: The crew.
AM: The crew and it’s beautiful and we’ll take a photograph of it.
NM: It’s not finished yet ‘cause I’ll go and fetch the other bit if I haven’t got it here. This is the other bit.
AM: How long have you been doing this for Bluey?
NM: [laughs] Oh heaven knows.
AM: It’s lovely. I’m going to end the interview now but we’ll take a photograph of this — of the tapestry that Bluey’s been doing.
NM: Now that fits. That will be fitted in there.
AM: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bluey Mottershead
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-19
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMotterheadN150719
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:45:34 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Born on a farm in Shropshire, his best friend from his youth joined the Royal Air Force as aircrew and was killed at RAF Honington when a German aircraft bombed the station. A desire for revenge made him enlist for flying duties in January 1941. He was sent to RAF Scampton for basic training where he had a flight in a Hampden which he rated as "not fit for purpose".
Flying training commenced at RAF Booker on Tiger Moths and he was then sent out of England as part of the Empire Training Scheme. Flying training on Stearman aircraft recommenced at Lakeland in Florida followed by multi-engined training at Macon in Georgia and Valdosta for advanced training. In October 1942 he became a pilot under the American Army Air Force System and declined an offer to stay and become an instructor.
Returning to Britain on an unescorted Queen Elizabeth liner, he trained on Oxfords at RAF Little Rissington. Posted to RAF Harwell to fly, in Bluey's terms "clapped out Wellingtons" he describes the system for forming a crew. They were posted to RAF Riccall to fly the Halifax.
The next posting was to an operational squadron at RAF Lissett where he did his first operational flight to Krefeld in June 1943 and trips to Berlin, Cologne and Mannheim. After his trip to Krefeld, his rear gunner refused to fly and was removed. On his second trip to Mannheim, Bluey's aircraft was struck by a bomb from an aircraft flying above. They had to reduce height and so used Window to disguise their location. The final trip was to Berlin in November 1943 and, having completed his tour, was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. Bluey never flew again. Sent to Tilly Whim, Bluey was trained to operate Oboe and explains the device. Posted to an Oboe station at RAF Winterton to monitor junior operatives, he met his future wife.
After the war had finished he became an instructor on the Link Trainer and sent to various RAF stations and finally to RAF Marham from where he was demobilised and returned to civilian life. In civilian life, employment in the farm feed industry was followed by time in the lubricant industry until retirement. Bluey compiled a register of all crews that flew with 158 Squadron and formed a Squadron association in 1947, of which he became president, and organised a memorial to the squadron at former RAF Lissett.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-06
1943-11
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
England--Gloucestershire
England--Norfolk
England--Oxfordshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
Canada
United States
Florida
Florida--Lakeland
Georgia
Georgia--Macon
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Krefeld
Germany--Mannheim
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
158 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Flying Training School
Halifax
Hampden
Harvard
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
love and romance
memorial
military ethos
Oboe
Oxford
pilot
RAF Hampstead Norris
RAF Harwell
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Honington
RAF Lissett
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Marham
RAF Riccall
RAF Scampton
recruitment
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/772/9292/PHarveyW1801.2.jpg
d03966fa4a55004101192dec15f56f21
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/772/9292/AHarveyW180802.2.mp3
64551cc443dc706cf3cc4a1e5b715862
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harvey, Bill
William Harvey
W Harvey
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant William 'Bill' Harvey (1922 = 2023, 1595171 Royal Air Force) and ten photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 640 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by William Harvey and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Harvey, W
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: So, this is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Bill Harvey today who was an air gunner with 640 Squadron and we’re interviewing for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. We’re at Bill’s home and it’s the 2nd of August 2018. So first of all thank you Bill for agreeing to talk to me today. So Bill do you want to tell me a little about your time before you joined the RAF?
BH: Well, if I go back to when I was six or seven was the first time I saw an aeroplane. It was a biplane. The aeroplane circus came to Broomhill which were two mile off my home and I were really interested. From then when I was fourteen I started working in mines. Mining. It were being in the mining district there were no other sort of work. And when I got to be sixteen I was put on, the war were beginning to look like coming in 1938 and I was put on regular nights under the mine looking after all the machinery. And that wasn’t nice for a lad at sixteen to be on the nights and sometimes I had to work weekends as well. Then when the war did break out I was seventeen. When I got to be eighteen I went to join up and they wouldn’t let me join because I were a miner. They told me no. Come back when I were twenty one. So when I became twenty one I was still on regular nights Darfield main colliery. And I actually made a friend, an office lad, an underground office lad and he were getting a bit fed up. [Irving Baldy?] and we both joined up together at Barnsley because they’d only let us join aircrew. No other because we couldn’t go in the Army, we couldn’t go in the Navy, we couldn’t go in the Air Force to be ground staff. It had to be air crew. Not knowing what aircrew were like then we said we’d take it. We went for a weekend in Doncaster to be interviewed, to be examined and have a medical. We had to stop overnight. I failed the first interview, blowing mercury up and doings. And me wanting to get into aircrew I blew it up and held my tongue there. So they failed me for holding me tongue there. So I begged and prayed them to let me go and do it again. Where they were doing the examination were on the third floor of a new building. A court building at Doncaster. And I had to go down to the bottom floor, run up to the third, blow it up and hold it for thirty seconds and did it ever [pause] I don’t know how I managed it but I did it. I passed all the exams, arithmetic and everything else, and I thought this’ll be funny this if I go to, if I’m not eligible to get into aircrew which were Royal Air Force then. So we both passed it. Went home. They’ve given us a number, us Air Force number 1595171. You never forget it. Irving got his letter first after a month to go. I were a bit peeved because I hadn’t got one and he’d been in three weeks. They wouldn’t let us go together. With us being mates and pals they wouldn’t let us. No way were they going to let us be together through the war. And I got my papers three week after to go to Lord’s Cricket Ground and that’s where we started being in the Royal Air Force. We spent a week there in a big hotel St John’s Wood. Then we went to Shropshire. Spent, I think it were about four week there. Three or four week. We were sent then to Bridlington. In Bridlington they must have thought we were illiterate or something. It were like going school. And then when I found out a lot of people at that time couldn’t read and write were going in aircrew. We spent a few weeks there, and we were posted up to different gunnery schools and I were posted up to Dalcross just outside Inverness. And [pause] that’s where I remember it very well because if you wanted to go at night in to Inverness and you missed the last bus home it were a seven mile walk. I missed the last bus once and then I had to peel spuds for a week which weren’t very nice. Then we passed Gunnery School. They gave us the stripes and sent home on leave. We were supposed then to wait for a letter to go to a crewing school to be crewed up with other people. You had to go to this place, a big hangar and you had to find out who you’d like to fly with. But for some unknown reason I got a letter to go up to Lossiemouth and meet a crew up there that had already crewed up at one of these places and they’d been together a fortnight. And somehow or other mid-upper gunner couldn’t, he couldn’t mix with them so they took him out and I took his place. So I had no chance then to pick my crew. Although good luck and what have you we really gelled. There were six of us but there were only one turret so although we won’t fly one would be in the rear turret and the other would be messing about with the front gun because it were a Wellington. That’s how we, we went from there to Acaster Malbis at York for a fortnight because somehow or another there were that many crews finishing and all ready for going on to squadrons that somehow or other there were a bit of a backup. So we did a fortnight at Acaster Malbis. Then we were sent to Riccall, Heavy Conversion Unit and we weren’t very happy because they were the old type Halifax. They were the really clapped out Halifaxes. You were lucky if you got off the ground with it. But we did a lot of training on it and then we were there about four week. We were sent then to Leconfield, 640 Squadron and that’s when we were introduced to [pause] we used to have a name for it. Where you could see people that that had been there a fair while not smiling and walking around not smiling and we were a crew that were always really happy and smiling together. Our first trip were to bomb an airfield in France, and we didn’t know what we were going to get. Lucky for us there were ten tenths cloud and we got a recall. We circled the target a little bit and then we were recalled home. That were our introduction to being on a squadron. Our first, second trip [pause] I’ve got it. Our second trip was to Soesterberg. Same distance in France somewhere we think it were. We bombed that no trouble. No problem. And then we did two trips. One to Le Havre where the Germans were holding out. So that were like us first four trips were easy. Then we moved towards, when we went into crew room to briefing still laughing. Not knowing what it would be like really to be on a real bombing trip. We went to Scholven, Ruhr Valley and we could hear people, some of the crews, some of the old crews that had been there before calling it Death Valley, Happy Valley. All sorts of names. And we kept wondering why? Why? And then that’s when we realised why they were losing a lot of crew. It weren’t very nice to be shot at. When we came back we were due for six days leave. Yes. When you went to a squadron and you walked through that gate you were on duty for six solid weeks. The only time you got out was if the weather was bad and you were stood down and you weren’t going to do any flying. Then you could probably get two or three hours to go in to a village if there were any one near or anything like that. But after six weeks, you got six days leave to recuperate from that six weeks. And in them six days I got married. So then I took the wife back. She insisted she were going back with me so I found her some lodgings about five mile out of Beverley. That meant like I was going from Leconfield through Beverley for four or five miles on a bike. And they weren’t very light them army bikes. And so after a fortnight I just got fed up with it and packed her off back home. It were no good. It were taking a toll. In other words I weren’t doing my job right. I were tending to miss things as we were flying which I shouldn’t do. An air gunner, his job was to look after the plane and get it back safely and I didn’t think I was doing a good job. That’s why I sent her back home. And through then we went on then different trips. Some bad. Some good. There were always anti-aircraft bods. It were frightening. I don’t think anybody that flew wasn’t frightened on some trips it was so bad. You wondered. If it hadn’t have been for the fact that the gunners had something to do looking out for enemy aeroplanes, you didn’t bother with the flak. You just didn’t want to miss if there had been any aeroplanes. Then after about a third way through a trip you realised when you’re over the target there would be no enemy aeroplanes because they wouldn’t be flying through their own flak. So really you could just settle down through the bombing run and coming out the other side of the flak. Then you started working again. You daren’t [pause] there were times when we came out of debriefing room, there were times you’d think oh God, how about tonight? Sometimes you did have to. On our thirteenth trip, Oostkapelle must have been the easiest run. The easiest trip we could have. We were going to lead 640 Squadron in. We were the front aeroplane. We were going to bomb from four thousand feet because that was the cloud base. But at four thousand feet we were still flying in cloud so Bill the pilot decided to come down under cloud so he could see what we were doing. Three thousand feet we were still in cloud. Well, my [trouble], but next thing there was such a big bang and I thought that it were enemy aircraft and I’m looking around for enemy aircraft. They were so that they hit starboard outer and we were going down and Bill the pilot was screaming, ‘Dinghy. Dinghy.’ That meant we were going in to the sea. So I looked down and I just lowered my seat to get out of the turret when I felt it level off. And then I heard Bill say, ‘We’ve got it.’ So him and the bomb aimer must between them must have rectified it. So I pulled my seat back up, stopped where I were still looking for enemy aircraft. Still not knowing that it were the guns. Then we decided, some people, I think we were about a thousand feet off the sea. Everything were quite plain, so we decided as a crew we’d go around again because we’d still got the bombs on board. And we went around again after Bill had got us back to about two thousand feet and there were only us left there and they were firing at us with their rifles and all sorts. You could see them. But me and Reg hadn’t swung his, because Bill were having trouble keeping the aeroplane, keeping it level and everything. So we both put us guns aft. We didn’t, we didn’t shoot anything. We just faced off and left it at that. We were still looking for enemy aircraft. Then when I looked over the side and saw they were firing all sorts at us. Then all of a sudden they seemed to scatter when Arthur opened his bomb bay. So they’d an idea that we were going to drop us bombs somewhere which we did. We dropped them bang on target. And as you dropped them and Arthur shouted, ‘Bombs away,’ Bill swung the aircraft around, not waiting to take the photograph, although a photograph were taken but it were taken on another part of the island because all of us tilted over, it had gone over. That were our thirteenth trip. Never to be forgotten. Then we’d next morning we were called to the briefing room. We were going to the self same place again but we were using a different aircraft. Z-Zebra were being repaired. And it was like a Sunday morning trip. So quiet. And then we got to know a fortnight after that that the army went in and we captured it. So that, that were us thirteenth and after that everything [pause] the next raid I remember very clearly were Julich. Julich. 16th of November. A daylight raid. It was a big raid. I think it were a railway. Germany were sending their troops to the front line. We had to try and destroy it. We were down to go in the fourth wave and as we were going in we had two dog legs to go when the first wave were going through. And in the distance I could see them going through and it were a box barrage. The first time I’d ever seen a clear box barrage and they were taking a hammering. They were really shooting one or two down. And I said to Bill, ‘Bill, look at that lot over there.’ And we’d still two dog legs to go to come on our bombing run. He said, ‘Oh, they might have run out of ammunition by the time we get there.’ I said, ‘Bill, we’re in the bottom layer. Don’t you think it would be nice if we crawled up to the top layer?’ And he said, ‘We can’t do that Rosey.’ He called me Rosey because there were two Bills. He said, ‘We can’t do that because the photograph has to be taken at nineteen thousand feet.’ And that were the bottom layer. And I remember very clearly on our bombing run looking up. There were a Lanc above us with the bomb bay doors open and it’s not nice looking at them. And we were on our bombing run so he was on the bombing run. I asked Bill to move over. He looked up. He said, ‘Oh God.’ He did move over. The next thing the Lanc let it’s bombs go and Bill said, ‘You’re right. It’s got bombs.’ We were that near. We were that close. So we got away with it again. Then after that the further we went into the Germany the longer we were in the air. Tiring. After that we got seasoned to all the flak and everything. Then on our last trip [pause] when we landed on our last trip which were to Homberg no problem. No trouble. Although I think if I look in the reference book then maybe they did lose some. But when we landed we got out of [pause] We had ‘chutes and everything. We got out of the aeroplane and knowing it were our last trip it were like a cloak running off my shoulders. Nobody could tell what it were like. Nobody could feel. They can’t explain what that feeling were like but it was just as though somebody had took a cloak and you’re free. That were my last trip. And then I went on leave. And I got a letter to go back up to Lossiemouth as an instructor for some French crews, and I couldn’t talk a damned word of French. So I thought I’d done flying but I did another month flying with French crews which were happy enough. We weren’t getting shot at and drinking plenty of French wine which were a happy end to my flying. I never flew no more when I left Lossiemouth. And after that I went on two courses before I realised that Sylvia, my wife were pregnant. So being a miner I were able to take what they called a Class B Release. And I took Class B Release and came home just in time for Christmas. In fact, I was took off records. Put on reserved records until the 7th of January or when I left. 1946 were when I left the RAF and went back into the mine. I stayed there for about eighteen year. Then I were offered a job in glass container industry. I didn’t think there were another life other than mining. It changed my life altogether because there was, after I’d been there twelve month they were short of somebody to be secretary for the Union branch and they asked me if I’d do it. So therefore I did that. And then after three year there I became chairman at Yorkshire glass container industry. Then after that I were asked to do National Joint Industrial Council Member which I took for four year which meant travelling all over England attending different glassworks, sitting on dispute committees, safety committees. Never being at home. Not seeing the wife as much. I think I saw the wife more in wartime than what I did in work time, I’ll never forget. She were working. I were working. We’d two lads. I were getting called out at night regular. So I went to see a landlord in a little boozer down Wombwell, and he said I could use that as an office from 9 o’clock ‘til closing time. And that became my office for at least eight year where anybody in trouble at work and other works could phone me and not disturb the wife. So then we ended up happy. And I retired when I was sixty two. It weren’t doing my health any good travelling up and down and going to disputes and safety committees. They were taking a lot of time up so I retired and I never, I’ve now been retired thirty two year and still feel fit. When I retired I did a bit of golfing but it weren’t too heavy so I bought some Crown Green woods, and I played Crown Green Bowling up to being ninety two in competitions winning different cups and shields. And I would still do it today if I could get on [laughs] which when I go with my son on holiday the first thing he does is look for a Crown Green Bowling Green and we go and have an hour. And so that’s the end and I don’t know what’s, I lost Sylvia two years back. So, we’d been married seventy one year. Three months short of seventy two so I think we’d had a good life. So that’s my story.
BH: It's a wonderful story Bill and there’s so much detail in there.
SP: Hmmn?
BH: There’s so much detail in there and you talk about Sylvia and you married her during the war. How did you actually meet?
SP: Well, funny enough I were walking out with her cousin. And we weren’t courting, we were just walking out because her father worked at the same place as me and I’d known her. We got an invitation to Sylvia’s seventeenth birthday and her cousin were only seventeen. So we went and somehow or another her cousin decided to go home. She weren’t feeling well. So I ended up going for a drink that night and I partnered Sylvia and that’s how we got together. She were working on Lancasters at Bradford. She were working, I think it were at Leeds Airport or somewhere making Lancasters. When I told her I were joining up she weren’t very dead keen. I didn’t have to go but I could only go in aircrew which I’ve mentioned before. So there must have been, every aircrew man was a volunteer. Didn’t have to go. Didn’t have to do it. Didn’t have to go on a trip. If you said you weren’t going to go on a trip they couldn’t put you on a plane. They couldn’t do ought. But and that comes the trouble. They were put on, no matter how many trips they’d done. You could have done two tours and on your third tour and you said you didn’t feel like going again they’d put lack of moral fibre, LMF on your records. Which to me weren’t very nice. So, but I’m digressing back to the Air Force again and I shouldn’t do that. We, I came out, me and Sylvia and we were married while I were in the Air Force. We lived with her mother and dad for two year before we got a council house. We didn’t have any money so we had to rent one. They were all, nobody had money to buy them in them days although they weren’t very dear. But from being fourteen I’d always been a staunch Labour man and I’d been to Union schools from being sixteen. And when I looked back I can understand why they put me on regular nights. Keep me out of trouble because in them days lads down, young lads down the pit going down at fourteen didn’t have anybody looking after them and I learned a lot to do with the Union rules and regulations so that I could look after a lot of the lads at Darfield Main. Even when I come back in to the mine from the Air Force I still took it up. Union work. And I think that’s why I were offered a job in the glass industry. So I could use my Union skills. And actually funnily enough it were a company employee, one of the men that recommended I had this job. So we got on very well. So that’s what I’ve done with my life. Looking after other people. When I retired I joined the British Legion. I became chairman of the local branch. Then when we decided they were going to have a 640 Association I became chairman of that because nobody wanted, knew how to carry on. And from being chairman we were losing that many members. Secretaries. I became secretary and I used to write a lot of newsletters. I used to write newsletters. Send them all over. Canada. All over. And now I don’t know what to do with myself. I can’t do any gardening. I’ve always been a gardener. I love gardening. I find it very difficult now which is understandable at my age. So, I don’t think there’s much more I can tell you. You can ask your questions now.
SP: Just going back to your crewing up do you want to tell me a little bit about who your crew were? So you crew up. You crewed up at Lossiemouth, didn’t you? You were sent up there to join an established crew already.
BH: Yeah.
SP: Do you want to tell me who your crew were? Were they, you know different nationalities on it?
BH: Our pilot Bill Goodrum. He came from Middlesbrough. His father were a master builder so Bill were really in the building trade. Bomb aimer came from Sheffield. He were in the steel industry. Wireless op came from Edinburgh.
SP: What was he called? What was his name?
BH: Bob. Bob came from Edinburgh. Bob. Larry was the youngest of the crew. He came from Brighton. Reg actually lived in Beverley. Couldn’t believe it when we were sent to 640 Squadron. Leconfield is only just outside Beverley. Which were good for us all because if we got two hour spare we always went down to Reg’s mother for a pot of tea. And then I came from Barnsley. A miner. Then last one to join the crew at Riccall were the engineer, and I think he came from Bury but we never got to know really. So, that were, but he was the last to join. Engineer. We didn’t pick the engineer up while we got to the Heavy Conversion Unit. He seemed a nice lad. We were all ok together, no problem, but very rarely did we go out as a crew. Bill were a sergeant when we arrived. We were all sergeants really when we arrived at Leconfield and when we left Leconfield at the end of March in ’45 he were a flight lieui. So that were really quick but we know why. He used to volunteer for all jobs flying. That meant we were volunteering as well because we had to fly with him. So we did more practice bombing than anybody else on the squadron and that’s why he became a flight lieui so fast. We think. Bob, the wireless op. You could, if you went in a boozer he’d be in but he’d be playing snooker. He were a very good snooker player. Larry was the navigator. Were tall. Very long hair. He were always finding us a place to go he’d been invited to. If they got some daughters we were invited to a party as a crew. That’s the only time we ever went together. Reg were always at, if he’d two or three hours he was always down at home. He had two sisters and they were always inviting us but we could never. Really there were only two or three times we went and had a party there. If we were stood down, at Reg’s mother’s, if we were stood down at any time we would all go to Reg’s mother’s. We were happy enough. But we never seemed to find time to go a lot down into Beverley because it was me and Reg were always studying aircraft. Even if, if we were nothing to do, if we come back off a [unclear] at night two or three hours in bed. Then we’d go down to the gunnery office and start looking at any new aircraft that had come out. So really it paid off for me and Reg. Oh, I can honestly say that me and Reg never fired us guns in anger. Daytime Bill always kept a flight plan and we always seemed to be in the middle. On a, in a daylight raid was the only time you ever saw how many aircraft were going. And the aircraft, there’d be two hundred in each wave. If it were a big raid there’d be two hundred or so. All supposed to go through this little box. But when, when you were going there seemed to be aircraft three miles wide. The sky were full of aircraft, but it were three miles wide and you used to think how on earth are we all going to get to the exact same target. It made you wonder at times what, what you were really doing. But I think that’s why we came through. We kept a flight plan. Some of them you could see them they come out of the bomb run, spend the thirty seconds taking the photographs, then you’d see them bank over and start diving and going away as fast as they can to get back home. To be the first for egg and bacon I suppose. But it was always them that were being shot. Damaged. Of course if you saw a dogfight and they were trying to get to one aircraft there’d be three trying to get at that aircraft. But there were some silly devil that had to get off the flightpath, trying to take shortcuts and he would pay the price. So on a night if you fired your guns you were telling other aircraft where you were. You were telling the enemy where you were. I remember on one trip we’d had a bashing with the flak and we were coming back. We were talking about, still me and Reg were looking around and I said, ‘Look over here at 2 o’clock on starboard, Reg.’ ‘Oh,’ he says. I said, ‘We might have been hit. And he couldn’t have been, in the dark we could see him plainly. 109. And he flew with us for about ten minutes. We didn’t mention it to Bill, the pilot. He thought it had gone so we didn’t mention it. And we weren’t talking about it, me and Reg we were just watching him. The next thing he just went. Just banked over and gone. But he still didn’t know. When we got back we had a talk about it, me and Reg. We didn’t fire because if we had fired at him he’d probably some mates at the other side that would have wanted to know where the aircraft were and we would have been giving our position away. So actually you didn’t. You only had to fire your guns if you were being attacked. And if you were doing things right you didn’t get attacked. If you were moving your turret up and down they could see that you were awake. If you weren’t moving your guns up and down they’d an idea you were asleep. So that’s I think how we got through thirty eight trips although I only did thirty four. I did three week or [unclear] they call it. Anyhow, I got myself in trouble. Put it that way. I can’t say big words or I’ll lose my teeth. I got myself in trouble. It was when I’d just got married and we were supposed to be on our honeymoon and we were stood down while 12 o’clock. We’d been to Le Havre in the morning. Came back. We hadn’t dropped us bombs and we were stood down while 12 o’clock. And it were a daylight raid so I got my bicycle to here. You know what it is when you’re first married. And at half past 8 at night I said, ‘Oh, I’m going to get off back.’ I had to be back for 12 o’clock. And it were really cloudy. I thought well, they’ll not be going tonight. I’ll go back about 4 o’clock in the morning,’ which I did. When I comes through Beverley on my bike really going like the clappers I could hear aeroplane’s engines. My heart missed a beat. They were getting ready to go to Le Havre again. And I was cycling. Couldn’t get through the gate but I knew where there were an opening because I knew where all the ports where you could get in, and I went in and I went straight around to, to where Z-Zebra were. Bill give me a rollicking. I said, ‘Well, I’ll go as I am.’ He said, ‘No. We’ve got a mid-upper. Mid-upper’s going.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ll swap places with him.’ He said, ‘No. You can’t.’ He said, ‘Go back and see the CO.’ So I went back and saw the CO and he sent me to Sheffield Correction Centre for three week. And they cut all my hair off. I had some lovely long hair which all aircrew did. You did. Nobody bothered about aircrew. How they were dressed to go. I don’t know, because you might not come back off of any trip. I mean they were losing actually three out of every five who were getting either killed or injured or prisoner of war. So I did three week there. Everything they did were honoured except Sunday parade where I did two Sunday parades. And you had to be smart. And there were some bad lads there. Really, really bad lads. Someone asked me what I did. And I had to take all my kit bags. Five. All my flying clothes and everything. I couldn’t leave them at Leconfield. When I got on the train to Sheffield and I got to Sheffield I phoned them up at Dalton, that’s where it were, to send transport down. I got another rollicking and if I weren’t up there in half an hour I’d get another week tacked on to my three weeks. But I were lucky. I got a taxi driver to take me up and he didn’t take no money off me. It were a good job because I didn’t have any. That were why, that’s why I missed four trips.
SP: And did the crew take you straight back into the crew? There wasn’t any risk of the mid-upper staying.
BH: Well, when I went back I were really the fittest man on the squadron, and I went straight back the day after on a trip so there were no problem. The crew didn’t mentioned it. They didn’t mention it. They never mentioned it to me. It’s something I didn’t forget but I never did ought wrong again while I was in the Air Force. Never.
SP: Did you keep in touch with the crew after the war? Did you stay —
BH: Well, the only person after the war [pause] Goodrum. Bill Goodrum, pilot. I went up for a, me and Sylvia went to his, his mother and dad invited us for the weekend up there and we went up for a weekend. And then I got Bill’s number. He got married. I went up. Visited him at the house he’d built. And after that every New Year at 2 o’clock in the morning he’d phone me. That were my birthday to wish me a happy birthday. As drunk as a lord he were. He must have been drunk to phone me up at two in the morning. So we kept in touch that way. And then in nineteen, the early 1980s my youngest brother bought a caravan but he bought it without the knowledge that he’d got to tow it, and he didn’t have a licence. He didn’t even have a car. So I had to take it to a site at Bridlington. So, I knew where Reg lived because I’d visited him about four year after we’d left Leconfield. So I knew where he lived. So when I dropped the caravan off in Brid I came back that way through Beverley and called to see Reg. I don’t think he knew me at first. ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘It’s Rosey. Come in.’ They’d been to Elvington that day. It was a Sunday. They’d been to Elvington and he were telling me they were going to be rebuilding a Halifax there. And somebody were trying to start a 640 Squadron Association, he said, ‘But I’d like us all to be first.’ But he didn’t know that Larry had passed away about two year before I met him again. And funnily enough Larry had phoned me at work. He’d stayed in the Royal Air Force and he’d made himself chief navigator at Cranwell. Yeah, it were Cranwell, and he came out and the only job he could get were working at Folkestone. Control, controlling people at them that searches them and that, and he didn’t like it. I said, ‘Well, I’m here.’ I said, ‘I can get you a job here,’ because then I were working at [unclear] and travelling about. I said, ‘If you want to come up here you could get a house up here.’ So, ‘I’ve got a house here. I said the only thing I said is, ‘I can get you a job at the glass industry, no worry.’ He said, ‘I don’t want that.’ And then after I spoke to him, I didn’t phone him again. I’d got his number and his address and the next thing his wife rang me and said he’d passed away. So I said, ‘Well, when’s the funeral?’ She said, ‘Oh, we’ve had the funeral.’ It was nice to tell me. So anyway a bit after that a squadron leader, he’d retired, he were a teacher at one of the schools about two mile up the road at Darfield, and he called. He said Larry were his lecturer, his chief while he were in the Air Force. And Larry was only a flight lieui and he were a squadron leader. But Larry was the boss of navigators and this squadron leader were on when they were dropping the first atomic bomb. He were on it, this squadron leader and he were telling me about Larry and everything. So I have to go out. So anyway we got to know and he called a time or two telling me about what Larry and done and you know how good he were. So I kept in touch with his wife. Well, Sylvia did. And then I got a message from Reg, the rear gunner. He’d like us all to meet but how do we get on one another. I said, ‘Well, leave it with me.’ So then, where I had my office down Wombwell, when I were working for the Union there was a chap there worked in the Post Office. He were the chief of the telephones. So I mentioned it to him like. We all wanted to get. He said, ‘Do you know where they live?’ I said, ‘Oh aye.’ So I told them where they lived. He said, ‘Names?’ And the next thing I were talking to everybody and it were the holiday period so then we arranged us own meeting. All together except for Larry. He’d gone. He’d died. They didn’t know. We met up at Middlesbrough. And the next time we met then were at 640 Squadron Association at Elvington. We all met there again. Larry had stayed in the Air Force. Bob had stayed in the Air Force. Bill, because he were a pilot and he wanted to do a little bit of private, he joined the ATC training youngsters at Stockport and he did all the flying for them. Piloting. Nobody else had a chance when Bill were there with being a flight lieui he were their gaffer. So he got that. And Reg had gone back plumbing. He were a plumber. He got back plumbing. Arthur had gone back into the steelworks. I think he were working in the offices. Frank had gone to live in Australia, or he’d told us he’d gone to live in Australia. He bought a house in Australia. He brought his family up in Australia. Then they all decided to come back to England for a holiday and when they got back to England they stopped in England and started all over again in Barrow. So really, and then that’s how we all kept together, and I kept in touch with them all. I used to go down to [unclear] where Arthur lived, the bomb aimer, nearly every month to see him. And these past few years, well these past four year I’ve been going down to Eastbourne to see Bob because that’s where he’d gone to live and he wasn’t very well. In fact he passed away twelve month back. They’ve all passed away now. He were the last before me. There’s only me left of the crew. I went to Bill’s funeral, I went to Arthur’s funeral, I went to Bob’s, and I went to [pause] I can remember, but I can’t remember the names. Reg. The only funeral I didn’t go to were Larry’s and I couldn’t go to that because they didn’t let me know. So somehow I would have got there. It meant travelling.
SP: But you did stay together quite, after you re-met.
BH: No.
SP: The reunion quite, after in 1980 when you got together.
BH: Yeah. When we got together.
SP: You were still quite in touch. Yeah.
BH: That was when we first all got together again.
SP: Yeah.
BH: And, yeah, you know all rear gunners. For reunions though. Reg had passed away. Bob, Bob, he went to a few. We went to a few. Not many. Frank went to a few. Not many. Me, Arthur the bomb aimer and Bill, the pilot always went to them. At one period Bill were secretary, I were chairman and Arthur were treasurer. Nobody wanted to do it so I we said like we would do it. Well, Bill did. He thought it were [unclear] again. I said, ‘Bill, we’ve got a life to live as well.’ And then when it come to writing letters, newsletters that fell to me again. And it fell to me to have them printed which I did. I found a person to print all newsletters in Rawmarsh. In a printing firm. He were very good about it. He would sort it all out. I’d give him all the gen. He sorted it all out. Had it printed. Put it in the envelopes and he’d only take cost price for it. So all we had to do was pay postage.
SP: Is the Association still an active one? Is 640 Squadron Association still going?
BH: No.
SP: No. It’s finished then.
BH: No. ’99. I think it were 1999. There weren’t many of us left then. There were only about twenty turning up at Associations. Arthur wanted to pack it in. Bill had died. I were doing secretary job. I were actually doing the chairman’s job as well. Nobody wanted to do that but we got one where we coerced one bloke to sit in there in chair and I would pass him what to do. And so it were left like Arthur said, we said to him like, ‘I’m not going to have this job next year.’ So I told the meeting. We were having the meeting in Garrison Church in Beverley and I said we need somebody. I had an idea that Kevin, my youngest son and his wife would have run it but I couldn’t say, ‘Kevin and Beryl will run it for us,’ because they were in Sheffield visiting their daughter. They go twice a year there and spend a lot of time there. When they come back I explained it to them and they said, ‘Well, we would have run it, dad.’ I said, ‘Well, I couldn’t very well tell the meeting,’ I said. So we decided that there were that many passing, passing away that it wouldn’t be viable. And we had a bit of money because people were, kept sending money in and we were very careful and I were looking around to get the cheapest thing I could. Like the only postage were letters. I mean I were writing letters. He would only, Beresford’s they called the printer he were doing it cost price. And oh, I wrote to [pause] well the chap that started the Association he wanted a letter writing to the brewery. We were having this big meeting at [pause] We were unveiling a stall in the church yard in Beverley and he wanted a letter writing to John Smith’s Brewery. They got some money from there. The he wrote in to an insurance firm and they wrote back, “We’re building houses. Not knocking them down. You can’t have anything.” So you know I were really active all the time. All the time I’ve been retired I’ve been active.
SP: Yeah.
BH: Probably that’s why I’m living a long time. I don’t know. But —
SP: So we —
BH: You know, people, I’ve lived in this street all us married live. We used to live in one of those houses across the road. I’ve always lived in a council house because when I came out the Air Force although we were both working the wages weren’t very big. We didn’t have the money to buy a house so we were grateful to the council were they to build us one. When it came that Margaret Thatcher said you can buy them Sylvia knew my thoughts. These houses were built for people that couldn’t afford to buy and we’re not going to take it off the market. In a way it’s paid off because if we’d have bought it, Sylvia had only been retired five year when she really started being ill. She wasn’t seventy when she were ill. Started being ill. Really ill. So that meant —
SP: Yeah.
BH: It meant then we were both retired. We’d got a caravan. We bought the caravan when we retired. A new one. We’d had one. We’d been camping at first and then we bought this caravan to go. We liked touring Scotland. She did. We were always up Scotland, and we bought this new one. I think we only used to twice when she started being ill. So that meant I had to look after her. And we, we started applying for things for her. We couldn’t have them. We were too, we’d too much money in the bank. That were, you know. And I said, ‘Well, that’s no good.’ I was still in the Labour Party. Still a member, and I started talking to some of the councillors which I knew nearly them all with going to meetings and that. And they were telling me and giving me advice. So when it got too much for me and she became then, she had to have oxygen in the house so there were oxygen pipes running all over and I still, we didn’t have nobody to give me a hand and I applied again for some help. And I still didn’t. We were refused. So I went to the monthly meeting and I met a councillor there and I were explaining to him how we were getting refused, you know. He said, ‘Leave it with me, Bill,’ he said, ‘I’ll write a letter myself and put it in.’ And a week after a doctor called. Not our own doctor. Another doctor to see Sylvia for this application for her allowance because they gave an allowance you know and he let me read it. I thought, well it looks no different to what I wrote, but there were a little bit at the bottom that were different to what I’d put in. In fact, it were telling the honest truth, you know. She were really poorly, and so this doctor came and saw her. He said, ‘Oh aye.’ So she got carers allowance. Top care allowance. But we also got back pay for twelve month from the first time. So then we, I could have, I applied for a stairlift. I applied for everything for her but we had to buy them. There was too much money in the bank. So I said we’d better start spending some. So, you know, so we did but we always had to buy stuff to look after Sylvia. She passed away two years back.
[recording paused]
SP: So just going back a little bit Bill. You said you did training in Lossiemouth.
BH: Yeah.
SP: During the war. Do you want to tell me a little bit about that? What life was like at Lossiemouth and the training that you did there?
BH: French.
SP: You trained the French didn’t you? Yeah.
BH: French crews.
SP: Yeah.
BH: Well, we were still, for a period we were still using Wellingtons. I think for the first week. And French crews. One goes to Wellingtons. Of course, Wellington bomber you couldn’t just simply get up and walk down to the rear turret. You had to walk on a plank which was about a width of a square four paper. Not many. So you had to be careful. You had to hang on to the sides as you walking down to the rear turret. The first week. Oh dear. I don’t know whether they’d had too much wine or what. You were taking four at a time up and one in the rear turret and three down, sat down the front and we were changing from the first one to the second. We were changing them over and it were after lunch anyway. He came from the rear turret. Of course they couldn’t pass to go to the front and I was taking the second one back and I thought he looked all right to me. And he went with his leg through. One leg went over the plank and somehow or other he went through because it were like a funny shape. His leg went through so there we got him out anyway, two of us. I went down first and got on top from the other side and one of the other Frenchmen. There was one who could talk English. Every time I went up there was always one that could talk English. Yeah. We insisted on that. And we got him out. The pilot said, ‘Well, we’d best go back.’ I said, ‘Well, we’re not using oxygen. We don’t need oxygen. We’re not high enough. What’s the use? Let him go up and sit down because he’s scratched his leg and God knows what.’ I said, ‘One’s been injured. There’s only two more. We’re not going to be a long time.’ And after that when we got back we reported it to the CO didn’t like it. Otherwise I should have been more careful. I said, ‘It weren’t me.’ I mean how could I tell him? You know. I didn’t know he were drunk. Anyway, the week after we went on to the Halifax. No problem then. And we could take then I think it were eight at a time so we were up longer and there were no problem. Just swapping over and interpreter with the other one. He were always flying. Poor bugger. I don’t know. The only one who could talk English, so he went up every time we did and I said in the morning and I said in the afternoon, you know. I knew he were getting fed up. And then at the end of the month they did their course. And they didn’t know what to do with me. They sent me down to Abingdon. And I were at Abingdon about a fortnight. I came back up to Wheaton on a course but I think it were to, really to look after some [pause] there were some new entrants were on this course. They didn’t know what to do with them so they put them on this course. It were learning them to be stock taker, warehousemen. So they said like I had to learn warehouse. I said, ‘I don’t want a warehouse job.’ But I had to go. But I finished up being in charge of this hut. There were about twenty of them. But I was still going on the course with them. Anyway, after about six week on the course we were finished. I know I failed. I didn’t want to be warehouse. I mean it was easy enough. Instead of just filling three forms in you filled four forms in. If you were on four you did three. You know. So then they changed. All them that were in that hut went on leave. I don’t know how many there were. They all went on leave and I’m looking around for my ticket to go on leave. I weren’t getting one and there were an officer there, aircrew and he was in charge. I was in charge of [unclear] and he was in charge of the [unclear] I said, ‘Well, give me a weekend pass then.’, ‘I can’t,’ he said, ‘There’s another lot coming in.’ I said, ‘I’m not going on a course. I’m not going on a warehouse course,’ I said, ‘I’m digging my heels in.’ So I want to see the adjutant.’ What adjutant? He wouldn’t let me see the CO.’ I explained it to him. I said, ‘I’ve just been on a course and all I were doing were looking after that hut,’ I said, ‘And it’s not fair.’ He said, ‘Well, forget about it.’ He said, ‘That course that’s going in is going on a driving course. You can go on that.’ I were going to blurt out I can drive because I’ve been able to drive from being sixteen. I’ve had, I had a licence at sixteen before I went in the Air Force. Besides working in the pit I were doing some spare driving. Because all drivers were in the army and at sixteen and a half you could drive providing you got Ls on your vehicle but nobody at the side of you. You could drive with your learners. So I were leading like before. In 1939 I was FSO to different parts of villages around here. [unclear] you know, really in my spare time. So anyway that’s how I went on this course. There were twenty more lads coming and I had to march them up to this big hangar go across the main road and it were like the other side of the main road. It were in Wheaton itself. A big hangar and there must have been three hundred cars in there. BSM Motoring School. That’s what it said on. And I told the main instructor, ‘There’s twenty lads here and me.’ He says, ‘Yeah,’ he said, ‘I’ve got a note,’ so he says, ‘We’re splitting you up into threes.’ So me, I could already drive like but I wanted to be first in this car, and I got in. I think we’d only gone three miles when he said, ‘Hey, stop,’ and these two at the back couldn’t drive and he said, ‘You can drive.’ So I had to say, ‘Yeah. I’ve got a licence. A learner’s licence but it had run out with being in the Air Force. So he said, ‘But you can drive, can’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, you sit in the back and the other two can learn.’ So then I spent, they were in cars for the first month and I was sat in the back of this car with my feet up. No worries, except taking them there and bringing them back. Then when it were a different. They went on to lorries. Big lorries. So I said, ‘Oh, I’m not going to sit in the back again. No way.’ So I told the bloke in charge like, I said, ‘I can’t drive a big lorry. Never have done.’ So I learned that role. I went that road. So when I came out they gave me licence to drive everything. Drove rollers, motorbikes, everything. There you are. I said, ‘All I’ve been on is lorries and cars.’ ‘Oh, that don’t matter. Take it.’ So when I got my first licence I had all these things on. Anyway, I went on this course and when it finished I decided then, oh I got to know Sylvia were pregnant at the end of the course. So I went again to see the adjutant. He were a nice bloke. You could always get in to see him. I told him I fancied taking visa leave. Told him why. ‘Oh, that ain’t a problem. Go on your leave first, because if we start now he says they’ll not get you seven days leave.’ He said ‘Go on your leave first and then come back and see me again.’ So then I went on leave and that were ok. Came back. Went to see him. That were October. And a fortnight, or a week before Christmas, that were it, a week before Christmas I had to go down to Uxbridge. Demob. [unclear] off my back. All I had to give them were my overcoat. I had to give my flying kit. Just my overcoat. That’s all they wanted. Everything else they said you can keep. So I kept all my stuff and come home with this suit. And then when I looked at my paybook it said my pay finished on the 7th of January. So I were back working the week after. I just went down to the colliery and that was it. I got it. I were put on nights again.
[recording paused]
Early doors. If you know Brid there’s a big hall at the bottom and then there were this big hotel across the road and there were only officers used to go in there. And I met up with two lads, two Scots lads. We were billeted. All Air Force had took over Brid then. Every boarding house had been taken over because there were that many aircrew there. Me and these two lads for a bit of fun like we marched into this hotel and everything went quiet when we walked in. They served us. No problem there but everybody were looking at us. All the officers were looking at us all the time. So we never said a word. Just talking about different things together and we just drunk up but when we were coming out we got a squadron leader who stopped us at the door. He said, ‘You know, airmen don’t come in here.’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘Well, they just don’t come.’ He said, ‘You’re the first that have been here for months.’ He said, ‘But we’re not telling you to stop out but you don’t come in.’ That’s all he said to us [unclear] Now, that were officers, you know. And then at the end of the war, we weren’t there [pause] We’d left, left for the end of the war, there were no more war. Good. They tell me in the sergeants mess they put a rope across for regular sergeants, flight sergeants, warrant officers on that side and aircrew on this side. I said, ‘Well, it was a damned good job we weren’t there then, you know.’ I couldn’t believe it but that’s what they said they did. Yet again when, I’m sure they called it Georgian Corner or Square at Beverley we had a room there for every crew finishing the tour and the one to have a night out which every crew did and give the ground crew that had looked after their plane a good night could go and take over that room. You know. Have beer at beer cost price. So I remember when we went we took our ground crew. I think it were about 6 o’clock in the morning when we all trooped out really. From 6 o’clock the night before and the beer kept flowing and flowing. But then we were all young. You know what I mean? I remember that one very well. You know.
SP: Well, Bill thanks very much for sharing your stories with us today. There’s been some really detailed stories there. That’s been fantastic.
BH: Yeah.
SP: So I really appreciate your time on that. So on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive we want to thank you for taking part today.
BH: Well, this I could just, I don’t, I’ve no crew mates left so I’ve nobody like to visit, or you know. I used to like to go to Canada and visit that museum which, I mean, I think it took ten year it took them to rebuild that one.
SP: You’re pointing at the Halifax picture. The one they’ve repainted, err the one they repaired that came out of the —
BH: And they’ve no mid-upper turret if you look.
SP: Yeah.
BH: [unclear]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Harvey
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHarveyW180802, PHarveyW1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:28:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Harvey was working in the mines before volunteering for the RAF. He knew that as a miner he was in a Reserved Occupation and he would only be able to leave the mine if he was to volunteer for aircrew. He was accepted and began his training. Rather than do the crewing up in the traditional way he was posted to RAF Lossiemouth to replace a gunner on a crew which was already established. When Bill was not back in camp on one occasion when an op was planned he was disciplined by being sent to the Corrections unit at Sheffield. After he had served that time he returned to the crew and to operational flying. When they returned from their last operation Bill describes the relief of surviving to being like having a cloak taken from his shoulders. After his operations he was posted back to Lossiemouth where he trained French aircrew. On one occasion he had the experience of having to rescue one his trainees who actually slipped and put his foot through the aircraft.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Sheffield
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Lossiemouth
Scotland--Moray
640 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Halifax
military discipline
RAF Leconfield
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Riccall
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/9665/LLarmerLO430037v1.1.pdf
ab62da7bcc4b6cb26a31883a47285725
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Larmer, Lawrence
Lawrence Larmer
Laurie Larmer
L O Larmer
L Larmer
Description
An account of the resource
17 items concerning Flying Officer Laurence O'Hara Larmer (1920 - 2023, 430037 Royal Australian Air Force). Lawrence Larmer volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force and trained in Australia and Canada. He flew operations as a pilot flying Halifax with 51 Squadron from RAF Snaith. The collection consists of one oral history interview with him, wartime photographs of aircraft, aircrews and targets, his logbook, route maps, and an official certificate.
The collection was donated by Laurence Larmer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Larmer, LO
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Laurence Larmer's Royal Australian Air Force flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Australian Air Force flying log book for Laurence Larmer covering the period from 7 April 1943 to 3 August 1945. Detailing flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAAF Benalla, RCAF Dauphin, RAF Fair Oaks, RAF Banff, RAF Dallachy, RAF Lichfield, RAF Riccall, RAF Snaith and RAF Driffield. Aircraft flown were, DH-82, Cessna Crane, Oxford, Anson, Wellington and Halifax. He flew a total of 4 night and 5 daylight operations with 51 squadron. Targets were, Dortmund, Wuppertal, Homberg, Hagen, Travemunde, Bayreuth, Boizenburg, Heligoland and Wangerooge. He flew as a second pilot on operations with Flying Officer Chatting. In July 1945 he flew a number of Cook's Tours flights, described as European cross-country.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Australia. Royal Australian Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LLarmerLO430037v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Staffordshire
England--Surrey
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Bayreuth
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Lübeck
Germany--Wuppertal
Manitoba--Dauphin
Scotland--Banff
Scotland--Moray
Victoria--Benalla
Germany--Wangerooge Island
Victoria
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Boizenburg
Manitoba
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1945-03-12
1945-03-13
1945-03-14
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-04-08
1945-04-09
1945-04-11
1945-04-13
1945-04-14
1945-04-18
1945-04-25
1945-07-04
1945-07-09
1945-07-30
1945-08-03
1658 HCU
27 OTU
466 Squadron
51 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
Flying Training School
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Banff
RAF Dallachy
RAF Driffield
RAF Lichfield
RAF Riccall
RAF Snaith
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/10067/LKirrageLG1869665v1.1.pdf
40fdceab62d6e3754a8b5c7930373995
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McClements, Robert
Robert McClements
R McClements
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with Robert McClements (-2022, 1796607 Royal Air Force) and one with his wife, Iris McClements (b. 1926). The collection also contains his log book, service documents, photographs and a model of his Halifax. He completed a tour of operations as a mid-upper gunner with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. The log book belonging to L Kirrage, his flight engineer, is also included.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert McClements and catalogued by Barry Hunter and David Leitch.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
2015-10-21
2018-02-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McClements, R
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
1943: Volunteered for the RAF
19 December 1943 -11 February 1944: RAF Pembrey, No.1 AGS, flying Anson aircraft
23 April 1944 - 20 May 1944: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, Flying Gunnery Flight, flying Wellington aircraft
8 July 1944 - 23 July 1944: 1658 RAF Ricall, 1658 HCU, flying Halifax aircraft
30 July 1944 - 18 February 1945: RAF Melbourne, 10 Squadron, flying Halifax aircraft
July 1944 - February 1945: served on 10 Sqn as a Flight Sergeant Air gunner.
3 March 1947: RAF Kirkham, Released from Service, having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Robert McClements was born on 6 December 1924, in Belfast. He left school at the age of 14 and worked various jobs to help support his family. While there was no conscription in Northern Ireland, in late 1943 while working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard he volunteered to join the RAF, as aircrew.
Following basic training at RAF Bridlington and then initial gunnery training at RAF Bridgnorth, he was posted to RAF Pembry to join No 1 AGS and train as an air gunner. Air gunners course · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
He completed the gunnery course in February 1944 and was posted to No 20 OTU at RAF Lossiemouth and then on to 1658 HCU, at RAF Ricall, to train on Halifax aircraft. In July 1944, with all training finally completed, he began his operational flying with 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne flying Halifax aircraft.
His early operational trips passed without incident, but on one operation the aircraft experienced heavy icing, causing it to lose all lift and go into an uncontrolled descent. With the aircraft going straight down the order to ‘Bale out’ was given, Robert managed to get out of his gunner position, but then found himself forced to the floor unable to move. In the cockpit, the pilot engaged full power and he and his engineer battled with the control column to pull the aircraft out of its dive. The flight home passed uneventfully although the engineer reported that the aircraft never ever flew again.
Throughout the rest of his tour there were other eventful sorties. On one, two of the bombs ‘hung up’ and they had to release them from the carrier units using an axe. On another, the bomb aimer forgot to press the bomb-release button so they had to go around again. Luck was again on his side when, on a night raid, another aircraft on a turning point swung across the top of his Halifax, narrowly missing the top of his gun turret. Robert went on to complete a full operational flying tour of 38 operational sorties over Belgium, France and Germany amassing over 200 flying hours. PMcClementsR1503.2.jpg (1600×1299) (lincoln.ac.uk)
After his operational tour, Robert was released from flying duties. He remained at RAF Melbourne and trained as a Unit Fire Officer and he and his flight engineer took charge of the station warrant officer’s office. During a routine site inspection, he met a German prisoner of war who was making a wooden model of a Catalina aircraft for the officers’ mess. Robert asked him to make a model of his Halifax aircraft for him. The aircraft, remarkable in its detail, has been a treasured memento of his time served in the RAF. Robert McClements and his model of Halifax ZA-V · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Robert met his future wife, Iris, on a visit to the Observer Corp HQ at York where she was a serving member. He left the RAF in 1947 having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer. He and Iris settled in England where they worked with her father, in York. Latterly, he and Iris set up their own business in Wakefield selling motor vehicles.
Chris Cann
Iris McClements (nee Dobson) remembers, at the age of 11, being issued with a gas mask before the war had started. When she was about 13 years of age, her family moved to Eldwick to avoid the bombs.
She was a member of the Home Guard before joining the Women’s Junior Air Corp where she attained the rank of sergeant. She recalled wearing a grey uniform, being issued with a bucket, stirrup pump and helmet for fire watching and learning the theory of the internal combustion engine.
In 1944, she passed the entrance exam to join the Royal Observer Corps and was based in York, as a plotter. Her role was to listen to information from the spotters via headphones and place it on to the plotting table. This included the number of aircraft, direction of travel, height, and whether they were friendly or hostile. This was to give warning of enemy operations or to track operations heading to Germany. She worked eight-hour shifts which changed each week. The spotters in the outposts were also watching for aircraft that were going to crash-land, so that the crash sites could be identified. Iris visited a couple of these sites. She met her husband to be, Robert, on one of his visits to the Royal Observer Corp HQ in York.
She lived on an ex-World War One motor launch in York that the family had used for recreation. When off duty she would often travel into York to go dancing, swimming and to the cinema.
After the war she and Robert worked with her father in the motor trade. She then set up business with Robert in Wakefield.
Chris Cann
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
L Kirrage's flying log book for navigators, air bombers. air gunners and flight engineers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LKirrageLG1869665v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers for LG Kirrage, flight engineer, covering the period from 9 May 1944 to 5 July 1945. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Ricall and RAF Melbourne. He flew a total of 36 operations with 10 squadron, 18 Daylight and 18 Night operations. Targets were, Foret-de-Nieppe, Tirlemont-Gossencourt, Brest, Homberg-Heerbeck, Le Havre, Scholven, Kelsenkirchen, Keil, Boulogne, Neuss, Calais, Cleve, Essen, Cologne, Bochum, Munster, Hagen, Soest, Osnabruck, Bingen, Mulheim, Hanau, Saarbrucken, Magdeburg, Stuttgart, Mainz, Bonn, Goch, Wanne Eickel, Chemnitz and Wesel. His pilot on operations was Flight Lieutenant Grant. L Kirrage was the flight engineer in Flight Lieutenant Grant's crew and flew with Robert McClements.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
France--Brest
France--Calais
France--Le Havre
France--Nieppe Forest
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Goch
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Soest
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-08-05
1944-08-15
1944-08-17
1944-08-27
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-15
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-26
1944-09-27
1944-10-16
1944-10-17
1944-10-23
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-11-04
1944-11-18
1944-11-29
1944-12-02
1944-12-03
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-22
1944-12-24
1945-01-06
1945-01-14
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
1945-02-01
1945-02-04
1945-02-05
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-17
1945-07-05
10 Squadron
1658 HCU
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
Cook’s tour
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Melbourne
RAF Riccall
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/298/10070/LMcClementsR1796607v1.2.pdf
f8efc45259288361bfa45e77486a57ad
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
McClements, Robert
Robert McClements
R McClements
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. Two oral history interviews with Robert McClements (-2022, 1796607 Royal Air Force) and one with his wife, Iris McClements (b. 1926). The collection also contains his log book, service documents, photographs and a model of his Halifax. He completed a tour of operations as a mid-upper gunner with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. The log book belonging to L Kirrage, his flight engineer, is also included.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert McClements and catalogued by Barry Hunter and David Leitch.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
2015-10-21
2018-02-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McClements, R
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
1943: Volunteered for the RAF
19 December 1943 -11 February 1944: RAF Pembrey, No.1 AGS, flying Anson aircraft
23 April 1944 - 20 May 1944: RAF Lossiemouth, No. 20 OTU, Flying Gunnery Flight, flying Wellington aircraft
8 July 1944 - 23 July 1944: 1658 RAF Ricall, 1658 HCU, flying Halifax aircraft
30 July 1944 - 18 February 1945: RAF Melbourne, 10 Squadron, flying Halifax aircraft
July 1944 - February 1945: served on 10 Sqn as a Flight Sergeant Air gunner.
3 March 1947: RAF Kirkham, Released from Service, having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Robert McClements was born on 6 December 1924, in Belfast. He left school at the age of 14 and worked various jobs to help support his family. While there was no conscription in Northern Ireland, in late 1943 while working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard he volunteered to join the RAF, as aircrew.
Following basic training at RAF Bridlington and then initial gunnery training at RAF Bridgnorth, he was posted to RAF Pembry to join No 1 AGS and train as an air gunner. Air gunners course · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
He completed the gunnery course in February 1944 and was posted to No 20 OTU at RAF Lossiemouth and then on to 1658 HCU, at RAF Ricall, to train on Halifax aircraft. In July 1944, with all training finally completed, he began his operational flying with 10 Squadron at RAF Melbourne flying Halifax aircraft.
His early operational trips passed without incident, but on one operation the aircraft experienced heavy icing, causing it to lose all lift and go into an uncontrolled descent. With the aircraft going straight down the order to ‘Bale out’ was given, Robert managed to get out of his gunner position, but then found himself forced to the floor unable to move. In the cockpit, the pilot engaged full power and he and his engineer battled with the control column to pull the aircraft out of its dive. The flight home passed uneventfully although the engineer reported that the aircraft never ever flew again.
Throughout the rest of his tour there were other eventful sorties. On one, two of the bombs ‘hung up’ and they had to release them from the carrier units using an axe. On another, the bomb aimer forgot to press the bomb-release button so they had to go around again. Luck was again on his side when, on a night raid, another aircraft on a turning point swung across the top of his Halifax, narrowly missing the top of his gun turret. Robert went on to complete a full operational flying tour of 38 operational sorties over Belgium, France and Germany amassing over 200 flying hours. PMcClementsR1503.2.jpg (1600×1299) (lincoln.ac.uk)
After his operational tour, Robert was released from flying duties. He remained at RAF Melbourne and trained as a Unit Fire Officer and he and his flight engineer took charge of the station warrant officer’s office. During a routine site inspection, he met a German prisoner of war who was making a wooden model of a Catalina aircraft for the officers’ mess. Robert asked him to make a model of his Halifax aircraft for him. The aircraft, remarkable in its detail, has been a treasured memento of his time served in the RAF. Robert McClements and his model of Halifax ZA-V · IBCC Digital Archive (lincoln.ac.uk)
Robert met his future wife, Iris, on a visit to the Observer Corp HQ at York where she was a serving member. He left the RAF in 1947 having attained the rank of Temporary Warrant Officer. He and Iris settled in England where they worked with her father, in York. Latterly, he and Iris set up their own business in Wakefield selling motor vehicles.
Chris Cann
Iris McClements (nee Dobson) remembers, at the age of 11, being issued with a gas mask before the war had started. When she was about 13 years of age, her family moved to Eldwick to avoid the bombs.
She was a member of the Home Guard before joining the Women’s Junior Air Corp where she attained the rank of sergeant. She recalled wearing a grey uniform, being issued with a bucket, stirrup pump and helmet for fire watching and learning the theory of the internal combustion engine.
In 1944, she passed the entrance exam to join the Royal Observer Corps and was based in York, as a plotter. Her role was to listen to information from the spotters via headphones and place it on to the plotting table. This included the number of aircraft, direction of travel, height, and whether they were friendly or hostile. This was to give warning of enemy operations or to track operations heading to Germany. She worked eight-hour shifts which changed each week. The spotters in the outposts were also watching for aircraft that were going to crash-land, so that the crash sites could be identified. Iris visited a couple of these sites. She met her husband to be, Robert, on one of his visits to the Royal Observer Corp HQ in York.
She lived on an ex-World War One motor launch in York that the family had used for recreation. When off duty she would often travel into York to go dancing, swimming and to the cinema.
After the war she and Robert worked with her father in the motor trade. She then set up business with Robert in Wakefield.
Chris Cann
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert McClement's Flying Log Book for Navigators, Air Bombers, Air Gunners, Flight Engineers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LMcClementsR1796607v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Robert McClement's Flying Log Book for Navigators, Air Bombers, Air Gunners, Flight Engineers’, from 2 January 1944 to 18 February 1945. Details training schedule and operations flown. He served at RAF Pembrey, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Riccall and RAF Melbourne. Aircraft flown were Anson, Wellington, Halifax Mk 2 and Halifax Mk 3. He carried out a total of 38 operations in one tour with 10 Squadron as an air gunner on the following targets in Belgium, France and Germany: Bingen, Bochum, Bonn, Boulogne, Brest, Calais, Chemnitz, Cologne, Essen, Falaise, Gelsenkirchen, Goch, Hagen, Hanau, Homberg, Kiel, Kleve, Le Havre, Magdeburg, Mainz, Mülheim, Münster, Neuss, Nieppe Forest, Osnabrück, Saarbrücken, Scholven, Soest, Stuttgart, Tienen, Wanne-Eickel and Wesel. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Grant and Pilot Officer Moss. Remarks include notes on targets such as oil refineries, steel works, rail centres, marshalling yards, industrial areas, shipping, troop concentrations, airfields, V-1 sites, and dropping supplies. Notes include Operation Tractable, FIDO and one operation was carried out on only three engines. Robert McClement was assessed as 'a quiet and hardworking cadet' at 1 Air Gunnery School.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Atlantic Ocean
Belgium
England
France
Germany
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
Scotland--Moray
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Belgium--Tienen
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
France--Brest
France--Calais
France--Falaise
France--Le Havre
France--Nieppe Forest
Germany--Bingen (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Goch
Germany--Hagen (Arnsberg)
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Homberg (Kassel)
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Soest
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Great Britain
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-08-05
1944-08-14
1944-08-15
1944-08-17
1944-08-27
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-15
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-26
1944-09-27
1944-10-16
1944-10-17
1944-10-23
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-11-04
1944-11-18
1944-11-29
1944-12-02
1944-12-03
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-22
1944-12-24
1945-01-06
1945-01-14
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-04
1945-02-05
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-17
10 Squadron
1658 HCU
20 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
FIDO
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Pembrey
RAF Riccall
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/668/10072/AAllenWH170331.2.mp3
b7e86ee136f31e0cba975ebbd6344a9b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allen, William Hubert
W H Allen
Bill Allen
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant William Allen (b. 1923, 1585749, 197351 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 76 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allen, WH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MH: Ok. Good afternoon everybody. My name is Mark. I am a volunteer with the International Bomber Command Centre which is going to be located on Canwick Hill in Lincoln. I’m one of their volunteers that has the pleasure of coming to carry out interviews with veterans of Bomber Command. Today I have the great pleasure on the 31st of March 2017 of interviewing flight sergeant, as he was during his campaign time, Mr William Allen who resides in the fair country of Wales. And I have the pleasure in interviewing him this afternoon regarding his recollections both prior to the war and during it and then afterwards as well. But first of all we’ve managed to find out and to elicit from Bill some additional information from him regarding the service that his father undertook during the Great War ’14 to ’18. And I’ll get him to give us a brief resume of what he understands that his father’s service was in the Royal Naval Air Service. And then of a very romantic thing that his father got one of the personnel from the seaplane carrier the Ark Royal to do for him as a momento of his romancing what would have been Bill’s mother. So, good afternoon Bill. Thank you very much first of all for making yourself available for interview today. It’s greatly appreciated. So, I understand from your daughter, Wendy who’s given me a bit of insight into her grandfather and your father about where he served during the Great War. If you’d like to tell us about that first off.
WA: Right. As far as I know it his wartime service on the Ark Royal — 1914 he sailed from Lincolnshire to the Dardanelles. The Mediterranean. And the Ark Royal stayed there until she came back into home waters in 1918. During that time dad was courting a young lady from Surrey where he lived, or had lived at the time. And an engineer on the Ark Royal said to father to be, ‘What are you going to do with those letters?’ And father to be said, ‘Well, I suppose I’ll have to get rid of them.’ So this engineer said, ‘Let me have them and I’ll do something with them.’ And he made a walking stick which I’ve now still got. Which will be a hundred years old next year.
MH: Just for the people listening Bill has very kindly allowed me to see this lovely momento and to describe it for you. The best way to describe it Bill — would you just say it looks or it reminds me of a tree and the rings of a tree. It’s like somebody has done a cross carving across the plain of a tree trunk and you’ve got all the individual pages of the letters that you can see, and it’s a fabulous item. And it’s got a beautiful handle on top of it. And it’s such a fine momento of the Great War and of your parents courting, of course.
WA: Yeah.
MH: Of which you were then produced. So, tell us a bit more about yourself Bill. When were you born? Where were you born? A bit about your childhood. A bit about your interests before you saw service in the Royal Air Force.
WA: Well, I was born in Surrey, a place called Lingfield, on the 22nd of September 1923. Of course, I didn’t know much until about well four or five when you sort of realise things were going on. Dad was a head gardener on the estate in Dormans Park just outside Lingfield racecourse, but what shall we say? Nothing happened really. School was just normal. But in about 1937 things started going wrong. We thought well although I wasn’t, I was only what seventeen or sixteen. You think, well there’s a war coming. You could feel it. And I thought, well what am I going to do? And I thought well I know radio and I know Morse code so I think I’ll go in to Abingdon and volunteer for aircrew. So, I went to Abingdon, to the RAF Recruitment Centre and I said, ‘I wish to join up as aircrew.’ They said, ‘What as?’ So I said, ‘Well, radio. He said, ‘Well, go back. We’ve got your address. We’ll contact you when we can take you into the air force.’ So I went back, worked with dad on the estate until I got this call to go to aircrew selection. So I went to aircrew selection at Weston super Mare. I was passed as a wireless operator/air gunner, given a service number and they said, ‘The Army or the Navy won’t call you up. But,’ they said, ‘You’re a bit late getting here. What happened?’ I said, ‘Well, I left Abingdon this morning. Got a train to Oxford where there was an Aircrew Selection Board. I got a train to Didcot where there was another aircrew selection board. Another train to Bristol where there’s an aircrew selection board. And then on to Weston super Mare where I am now. And at the interview, and they said, ‘Right, you’re, you’re ok for wireless op/air gunner.’ And of course I found out afterwards the senior was a wing commander and he said, ‘Why did you go, why were you late getting here?’ So I told him why. All these stations. And he said, ‘Well, you’re not travelling back tonight. You’ll stay in a hotel tonight.’ So the next day I travelled back to Abingdon. The reverse direction. [laughs’] Stops all the way.
MH: So, you returned home having been selected. How long a period then between your selection at the aircrew selection and your eventual call up? How long a period do you think that was?
WA: So, as I, when I went for aircrew station I was sixteen and a half. I was finally called up just before my eighteenth birthday and I went to Padgate for initial kitting. From Padgate I went to RAF Yatesbury where it was the Number 1 Radio School. Of which there were funny tales about Yatesbury but never mind. We passed out at Yatesbury. I then went to North Wales for my gunnery. Passed out as an air gunner. Then I was posted back to Abingdon to crew up as, for a crew. Where I was crewed with a pilot, a bomb aimer, two gunners, and a navigator. But at the time because Whitleys only had two engines there was no [pause] excuse me my voice is going. There was no —
MH: Flight engineer.
WA: Flight engineer.
MH: Yeah. Yeah.
WA: We passed out at Abingdon. Then we went to Heavy Conversion Unit, Riccall in Yorkshire where we converted on to four engine Halies, or Halifaxes I should say. We passed out there. We were posted to 77 Squadron, Riccall in Yorkshire. We were there, well by the week because our skipper had to go as a second pilot on a raid in Germany. He never came back. So, we were a crew at 77 Squadron without a skipper. But at 102 Squadron, Pocklington was a squadron leader who wanted a crew. So we were posted to Pocklington. Crewed up with a squadron leader who was an excellent pilot because he he got shot in the tummy but he was an ex-Spitfire pilot. So he knew how to fly a Hali. And so we teamed up there. Got on well. And often we used to say on raids if it wasn’t for our skipper who knew how to treat the Germans we wouldn’t have got back. But of course sometimes we were damaged but the thing was coming back if the skipper, if the tail end, Tail End Charlie said, ‘Skipper, there’s a Mossie coming,’ We knew we were safe because the Mosquitoes had cannons and the Germans didn’t like that. But after we’d done about twenty one ops at 102 we, our skipper was made up to a wing commander so, we were then posted to Holme on Spalding Moor. 76 Squadron. And there we remained until the end of the war. And after of course 102 was then converted to Transport Command, onto the old Dakotas.
MH: Ok. Right. I’ve got a few questions for you Bill regarding your service. Ok. Going to take you all the way back then to your wireless operator training when you said there were a few tales that occurred at Wireless Training School. Are they repeatable, these tales? Or are they too naughty for the listener?
WA: Well, they’re a bit naughty.
MH: What happened? What did you get up to?
WA: Well, because on the, between Calne and Yatesbury on the big hillside there was carved a big horse. A white horse. And one day the boys, the RAF got blamed because the White Horse was a big stallion.
MH: Ah. Right.
WA: So, they were sent to grass it over a bit [laughs]
MH: Ok. Ok. And were you involved in that additional?
WA: No.
MH: No. Right. Ok. We’ll save the confession. So, basically they’d put an additional leg to the horse.
WA: Correct.
MH: Ok. So, you started your training on Whitleys. It’s not an aircraft people are very familiar with because not a lot of people know about the Whitley in all honesty. Can you give our listeners your impressions of the aircraft? How you found it. How you found it for the specific tasks that you had to carry out.
WA: Ok. She was a twin-engine. She was a main bomber before the Halies and the Lancs came in. Or the Lancaster was a Manchester before it was a Lancaster. But the dear old Whitley was, was always for us, a flying coffin. A job to get out of if there was any trouble.
MH: Right.
WA: She was slow. We did our first op from Abingdon to — on a leaflet raid into Germany but [pause] well we got back. The thing was that because my father, mum we lived at a place call Sutton Courtenay which was just outside Abingdon and of course I was back at Abingdon and I said, ‘Well, I won’t be able to see you tomorrow. I might be away.’ And all the aircraft, fourteen Whitleys went over our bungalow and dad said mum wouldn’t sleep until she counted fourteen back.
MH: Right. Ok.
WA: But [pause] well she was a, well I suppose what you’d call a medium bomber. Not much. But when we left Abingdon and got on to the Heavy Conversion on to Halies — a different aircraft. Four engines. But the Mark 1s and Mark 2s were a bit slow. But because the Hali was designed for Bristol radial engines she had to go, the Mark 1 and 2s had Rolls Royce and she wasn’t designed for those. But because the Hali couldn’t have the radial engines, the Bristols until the Battle of Britain was over because they were all wanted for the Hurricanes. But once the Hali got the radial engines Butch Harris, the boss of Bomber Command said, ‘Ah the Hali is now a better bomber than the Lancaster,’ and she was. She was a damned good aircraft. So, the only thing was with the Hali she was fast. She was faster than the Lanc. When the Tail End Charlie used to say, ‘Ah, there’s a Mossie coming up.’ A Mossie, for the listeners is a Mosquito. And that Mosquito aircraft was wooden but she had cannons and if we were coming, if we were damaged and the Mossie came beside us no German fighter would come within fifty miles of us because he could, that Mossie could blow him out the sky. And coming back the skipper always used to say to the mid-upper, ‘Make a note of the two, the marks, the letters on the aircraft so I can phone up the squadron when we get back.’
MH: So, thinking about when you did your first operation on the Whitley. It was a sort of postal run for leaflets. How did you feel about that? Instead of taking cargo that would have been of more use should we say.
WA: Well, we didn’t know. It’s a line of duty and that’s it. It was. As I say you put all these leaflets down the flare ‘chutes and that’s it.
MH: So, none of the crew had thoughts of — I’m putting my life on the line basically to be postie.
WA: No. No.
MH: Right.
WA: I can tell you about that later but it’s on. No. You didn’t.
MH: Didn’t think about that.
WA: No.
MH: Just saw it as part of service.
WA: I mean, we’re going on our first op so big deal. Big day. But when we got to our first, what we called our first operation with 102 with the new squadron leader, it was different, you see. Well, we did our first op over Germany. Come back ok. So, the next op one or two of us used to have a cigarette. So, we sat down and had a cigarette and we’d say, ‘Well, there’s ops tonight. Some are not coming back. But we are coming back.’ That’s the way you looked at it. You were coming back. You gave your packet of cigarettes to the ground crew. The old sergeant there and say who looked after our aircraft, ‘Here’s the cigarettes. If we don’t come back smoke them. Think of us.’
MH: So [pause] Now, I did some background reading in to Halifax Mark 3s. It’s not an aircraft that I’m very familiar or I wasn’t very familiar with but I am now. It quite surprised me I must admit that the wireless operator found themselves tucked beneath the pilot’s feet. How, how was that for you? Because they were above you. The flight engineer was above you. You had two other crew members technically behind you with the mid-upper and the tail gunner but there was yourself, the navigator and the bomb aimer all stuck in the front altogether. How did you find that because of being bulky, bulky aircrew kit and all the rest of it? How did you find that?
WA: We didn’t notice it because we thought this is, this is my cabin, here’s my wireless, that was it. You didn’t think about, well the skipper’s above us. The bomb aimer, as you say was sat at the second dickie until we were over the target and went up front to take the bomb aimer’s position. But the navigator was almost alongside of me. So, we didn’t bother.
MH: I was quite surprised also to find out, Bill that at the point where you sat in the wireless operation desk etcetera and where the pilot was, the aircraft was in fact nine foot tall at that point. So that’s quite an expanse when you think about it. A nine foot tall, you know at the side of the fuselage as such. I was quite surprised by that. But it was all comfortable for you at that time.
WA: Oh yes. Because from where the pilot was you went down steps. A couple of steps, and as you were going down the steps you hung your parachute because you each had a place to put your parachute. So you didn’t think about much about the cramp. You put your parachute on the clamp and got into your position.
MH: And in your position as well the way the radio set was set up was slightly different to other heavy bombers, I believe. In that the receiver set stood on its end. And then you had the main transmitter in front of you and then your Morse key was clamped normally on the right hand side.
WA: Correct. Yes.
MH: And then you had a small desk for keeping your radio log and everything.
WA: And of course you had a trailing aerial by the side of you.
MH: Right.
WA: If I was to unwind it.
MH: Right. How did you find, did you find that — was that a good set up for yourself being the, the receiver set being there to having a — are you a right handed gentleman? Were you having to reach across or, to change the various wavelengths as such?
WA: No, it was a — because I’ll show you the photographs later. Up there.
MH: Right.
WA: Of the wireless operator’s position.
MH: Right. Ok.
WA: The only lights you had for eight hours if you were on a night raid was the lights from the radio.
MH: Right.
WA: There weren’t no other light because the Germans could pick it up.
MH: And the operational ceiling I believe of a Mark 3 Halifax was about twenty thousand feet. How did you deal with the cold?
WA: Oh. We had three pairs of gloves on. And, but they were so soft. Silk gloves, a very nice woollen and then a leather. Soft leather that you could always, you could bend your fingers and you didn’t realise they were on. But most of the trips were ok over Germany. But if we were sent on mine laying up in the Baltic then it was mighty cold.
MH: Because the difference or I understand with the Lancaster the same sort of position for the radio op in the Lancaster. They were fortunate in having the heater by them. Did the Halifax not have any heating as such? And if so where would it have been? Was it by yourself or was it elsewhere in the aircraft?
WA: Well there was a little bit of heating coming through. So as long as you didn’t get iced up.
MH: Ok. When you went to Holme on Spalding Moor it’s not a station that I am familiar with. What can you tell us about it? How was it when you got there?
WA: Well, we got there because our skipper had been made up to wing commander. He was the CO then of the, of 76 Squadron flying. So everybody at [unclear] and at briefing, our first briefing it was funny because we were at our briefing table without a skipper. And some of the crews looked as us as to say, ‘Where’s your skipper?’ And of course the skipper did a briefing and said, ‘This is our target for tonight.’ And of course when he finished the briefing he came down and sat with us. And of course some of the crew looked at us, ‘Oh, you’ve got the wing commander have you?’
MH: Did that give you any privileges at all? Were you treated differently? Or —
WA: No. The one bad privilege. We could only do one op a month.
MH: So —
WA: So, we were slowed down.
MH: Right. Due to, due to your pilot’s rank. They didn’t want to lose him as such.
WA: Yeah. But the thing was that the AOC, God he was a rugby player for England before the war. He used to have to do a monthly flight to get his flying pay. And he always used to come to the wing commander and say, ‘I want your wireless operator.’ He didn’t want a navigator, nobody. He only wanted the wireless op.
MH: So, you found yourself with the AOC for 4 Group. Doing his monthly pay flight.
WA: Yeah [laughs]
MH: And that was just you.
WA: Yeah.
MH: When you went up. So, it was just you.
WA: And the, and the pilot, you know. He was —
MH: What aircraft did you do that on? When the AOC had to go up.
WA: That was the Mark 6s. They were good aircraft.
MH: Right. So he was, he was, the AOC was still —
WA: Yeah.
MH: Keeping up to the date on the, on the aircraft type as such.
WA: Yeah. That was the CO. Not me. Gus Walker.
MH: Gus Walker. Right.
WA: Everybody knows Gus. One night he’d had, because he went out to two aircraft. What they tried on one squadron where he was they decided to, to use two runways. So that one aircraft went that way. The other one went that way. And of course this time the two hit in the centre.
MH: Yeah.
WA: And he went from flying control to see what was happening and when he got there one of the bombs went off and blew his arm off.
MH: Oh crikey.
WA: His right arm.
MH: Oh dear.
WA: So, every time you saw him you always shook left handed.
MH: Right. Crikey. Oh poor chap.
WA: But his — but the first time, well no. The second time he said, ‘Do you mind flying with me?’ When he did his flying test. I said, ‘Sir, you are safer than some of the pilots I’ve flown with.
MH: With the one arm.
WA: Yeah.
MH: We’ll leave those. We’ll leave those dodgy pilots out of this interview then, just in case they happen. We’ll leave the names of the dodgy pilots out of the interview just in case.
WA: That was, well we had posts.
MH: So, you’ve now gone and you’ve reached into your cupboard. What have you brought out for us? What have you brought out from your cupboard? What have you got there? Ah. Right. Bill’s just bought out his form 1767 which for those of us in the know is his flying logbook. So we’re going to use this as a bit of a reference with you listeners as Bill’s going to take us into his logbook now. And we appreciate you can’t see it but in Bill’s neatest handwriting I’m looking at a page which is headed up Yatesbury. The 21st of May ’43 and he was flying on X7517.
WA: Dominie.
MH: And that was a Dominie. And that was up for air experience by the looks of things. I suppose, what was that? To check and make sure that you weren’t going to be sick.
WA: Yes.
MH: And that sort of thing. Ok.
WA: Then we went on to radio then. Direction finding loop, homing training, calibre training.
MH: But I look then, Bill. I look at the time that you were up and the actual flying times that Bill’s referring to during his training. They’re not very long are they? They’re only about an hour or so.
WA: Yes.
MH: And during that that allowed you time to go through thoroughly the training that you had to go through.
WA: That’s right.
MH: Or do you feel that it was rushed?
WA: No. No.
MH: To get, to get you through.
WA: No. It was ok. There was, you still carried on. This is when then they go to Mona, North Wales for my air gunnery.
MH: Right. Yeah.
WA: That’s my hits [laughs]
MH: And Bill’s now got in September sort of time 1943 he was at the Air Gunnery Course Centre and firing off approximately two hundred rounds at a time on his training. And that was, ah the aircraft type listed that Bill was flying in then was an Avro Anson during his training for air gunnery. With all different pilots by the looks of things. Yeah. But so how much training? What sort of weapon were you taught to fire? What was it?
WA: The 303s and the drogue which was being dragged behind the aircraft.
MH: So that was, would that have been a single 303 or would that have been a pair or —?
WA: No. A pair.
MH: A pair.
WA: That was on the old —
MH: Ah. Now, this is going to bring recollections to me. Halfpenny Green.
WA: Yes. That’s right.
MH: Yeah. Now, for listeners if you ever get the chance there’s a John Mills film that basically shows him in Bomber Command and then eventually this particular place called Halfpenny Field gets handed over to the American 8th Air Force. And it’s called, the film is called, “The Way to the Stars.” So, if you get the chance have a look at it because the gentleman I am sitting with actually served at a place called Halfpenny Green. So, this, this is where you did more wireless operation training. Yeah?
WA: That’s right. The training.
MH: And we’ve got cross country exercises and navigations and you were the second wireless operator. And again on Avro Ansons. How did you find that aircraft Bill to be in? Was it good?
WA: It was a good aircraft. The old Aggie as they called her. Aggie Anson.
MH: Was it a good training aircraft then?
WA: Yes.
MH: Yeah. Ok.
WA: This was Abingdon or satellite Stanton Harcourt.
MH: Right. Ok.
WA: Yeah. She was number 10 OTU.
MH: So, on Bill’s page now we’re up to the period now in his logbook and right at the top of the page is the 25th of January 1944. Bill was on wireless op duty and flying with Flying Officer Ford in a Whitley T4131. And on that particular occasion out of 10 OTU he was doing circuits and landings for an hour and a half. And then this was at Stanton Harcourt where Bill looks like he’s done a mixture of, he’s done the odd bit on an Avro Anson but the majority of it has been on the two engine Whitley. However, he has been the wireless operator duty for the whole of those. That’s lovely Bill. That’s a lovely book. And then we continue. And then I’ve got — you’ve got fighter affiliation there. Which is quite interesting because I found out later when you were with, when you were at Holme on Spalding Moor you had 1689 Bomber Defence Training which were Hawker Hurricanes doing fighter affiliation on the same, the same airfield. So you’ve continued that there. And that’s March ’44. And — right, here’s something I’m going to question. What’s Bullseye, Bill? What does that mean when you see that?
WA: A Bullseye was a six hour from Abingdon. We went through London. And then to another Birmingham. So it was across country. But the thing was at London they hadn’t informed, they hadn’t been informed that we were coming. So they thought we were Germans and we were fired at [laughs] So I had to flashback the Morse at them.
MH: Right. Ok. So, was that a specific? Is that why you’ve noted it as Bullseye? Or was Bullseye for a specific target?
WA: No. It was called a Bullseye.
MH: It was called a Bullseye. So —
WA: So, if you completed a Bullseye you were ok.
MH: You were ok. Ok. But on that particular occasion the anti-aircraft decided to fire on you. Ok.
WA: Because they didn’t know. But they, I think afterwards it was a bit better then.
MH: Ok.
WA: As a nickel operation.
MH: Right. So Bill’s showing me here, on the 14th of February which for us gentleman we all know is a rather painful day in pockets-wise, being Valentine’s Day. Back in 1944 Bill was doing a nickel operation to Laval which was a four and a quarter hour night operation. And then the following month looks like that’s when Squadron Leader Legatt, you did some fighter affiliation with him and the flight commander’s check. So that was good. Ok. Then you go to 1658 Heavy Conversion Unit.
WA: Riccall, in Yorkshire.
MH: Riccall, in Yorkshire. And that’s on a Halifax Mark 2. And Bill’s started in his logbook, he’s got that noted on the 10th of May 1944. And his first flight was at 0900 in the morning. The pilot was Flight Lieutenant Warren. And that was familiarisation for the Halifax Mark 2 of two hours and five minutes. And that was a daytime familiarisation flight.
WA: We were on three engines.
MH: Was that because the aircraft had a fault, Bill?
WA: No. Had to do it.
MH: Oh, you had to do it. Right. Ok. So that was a test of skill as such for the pilot. As Bill’s pointed out there whilst at 1658 HCU in his logbook he’s noted on the 18th and 19th of May ’44 that they did a three engine test on both of those days. And as you heard him say that was a requirement at those times. I see there you did another Bullseye operation as well. Down the bottom of your page. But one engine wasn’t working.
WA: No.
MH: So that made it even harder than. So, yeah. Crikey. Circuits and — yeah.
WA: That’s when it was.
MH: And then on the 1st line of Bill’s book for the 15th of June ’44 Halifax Mark 3. Circuits and landings with 77 Squadron at Full Sutton. And then —
WA: We lost our pilot.
MH: Was that Mr Ford?
WA: Yes.
MH: Mr Ford went so —
WA: Flying Officer Ford.
MH: At this time listeners we would like to note the tragic events that at this point we lost Flying Officer Ford. And he was your first pilot that went as a second dickie on an operation.
WA: So when he didn’t come back we were a crew without a pilot.
MH: A crew without a pilot. Yeah. Then you got your new pilot.
WA: So we went to 102 Squadron, Pocklington with a Squadron Leader White.
MH: Squadron Leader White. And your first operation with him was eighteen thousand feet. Foret de Nieppe. NE — sorry. N I E P P E and your bombing height was eighteen thousand feet. It was a day operation of three hours and forty minutes. And then your very next operation being routed but written over your shoulder you were hit by flak and that was — oh you were, oh V-1 launch site. But you were quite down low then.
WA: Yeah.
MH: At ten thousand feet. So, Bill’s next op was on the 8th of August. A Halifax Mark 3. Again, the pilot was Squadron Leader White. His new pilot. Bill was the wireless operator and that was [unclear] where the aircraft was hit by flak. And they were bombing a V-1 launch site. You seem to have quite a few trying to tackle the buzz bomb problem.
WA: Yes.
MH: Yeah.
WA: Still carried on.
MH: Still carried on. So, for those in the know or those that are new to this regarding knowledge to Bomber Command Bill with Squadron Leader White then carried out an operation on the 7th of September. Again in a Halifax Mark 3. On this occasion it was gardening to the Frisian Islands from fifteen thousand feet. Now, for those in the know the gardening sorties were to be mine laying. So, in and around the Frisian Islands Bill and Squadron Leader White and the rest of the crew would have been laying, doing mine laying around the Frisian islands. And you did some more then. You went off to Mecklenburg Bay in the Baltic. That would have been very cold.
WA: Yeah.
MH: That would have been a bit raw. Especially in September. Even in September wouldn’t it? So Bill then did one on the 15th of September as well. Gardening to the Mecklenburg Bay. And then you did some ferry flights.
WA: No. September ’44 the army was held up on going into Germany. So 76 Squadron was loaded up with 22 Jerry cans which, one Jerry can is mighty heavy but when you get twenty two. But the thing was that get to my position we had to crawl across all these petrol tank things to get. But we, what I can’t make out, we were given a parachute but we could never have get out if anything had happened. And if Germany knew that we were full of petrol they would have been after us. But the thing was we used more petrol in our engines than we were carrying.
MH: Carrying. Yeah.
WA: But they wanted, the army wanted this petrol so we had to do it.
MH: Now —
WA: It was quite a few.
MH: So, you were ferrying fuel at the time of Arnhem. But burning up more fuel in doing it.
WA: Yeah. That’s the, that’s the way it went.
MH: And then you went to Kleve in the October. Bochum on the Ruhr in November of ’44. And then again back to the Ruhr. Sterkrade.
WA: They had a —
MH: Oil plant.
WA: Box barrage, and you flew, they set their guns from ten thousand feet to twenty thousand feet and you flew through it.
MH: How did you feel about that because —
WA: Well, we didn’t know until later. But there you are. We knew it was somewhere close because you could smell cordite in the, in the aircraft and golly, that was through the oxygen masks.
MH: So, you were picking up the vapours.
WA: Yeah.
MH: From the exploding rounds. Then you went to Zoest. The marshalling yards. In the December. That would have been cold as well, Bill.
WA: Yeah.
MH: And then, just for fun in the January of ’45 they sent you back to the Baltic. They obviously didn’t think you’d been cold enough before. But —
WA: That’s where we went to.
MH: Holme on Spalding Moor. So, Bill —
WA: The wing commander there.
MH: Bill’s just showing me in his logbook now that Squadron Leader White had been made up to wing commander and they went to Holme on Spalding Moor. And the first noted operation come practice on that was the 3rd of February ’45 on a Halifax Mark 3 where you had a practice bombing session before going off and you were going to — is that Goch.
WA: Yeah.
MH: Yeah.
WA: In the Ruhr.
MH: Goch in the Ruhr on the 7th of February ’45. However, it does look like was that operation scrubbed by the master bomber at that time. And you were at twelve thousand feet and that was due to come in to contact —
WA: Heavy cloud. You couldn’t see the target.
MH: With the chemical plant. Oh, and then in March ’45 Bill, with Wing Commander White went to one of the big ones — Cologne where you were bombing from twenty thousand feet. So you were up. With the Halifax that’s towards its upper operational ceiling isn’t it? The twenty thousand. So, that’s quite high. And then Wuppertal in the March. And then practice bombing in the March as well. And then I’m going to pronounce, I’m going to pronounce this wrong, Bill. I’ll tell you now.
WA: Wangerooge.
MH: Wangerooge Island, from eight thousand feet on the 25th of April ’45. Again with Wing Commander White. And that was to assist in taking out a gun emplacement.
WA: And that was the last raid of the war.
MH: The very last one.
WA: Yes.
MH: Right. Ok. And that was for a gun emplacement causing problems. And that was a daylight operation on those occasions. On that occasion.
WA: Eight thousand feet.
MH: Eight thousand feet. That’s nothing. Eight thousand feet.
WA: And on that one was twenty four aircraft from our squadron. As we were going in two of our Halies collided. One [pause] one went straight down and with all the seven killed. The other one went down in the sea but only the skipper got out. The rest of the crew were killed. But he came, he was only a prisoner of war for a few days because the war was virtually ended. But when he got back to our squadron before we transferred to Transport Command he said when he came out the, out of the sea a German officer was waiting for him. And, but while he was marching him up to, to their office I suppose, to interrogate him a farmer came rushing up with a pitchfork and he was going to stab the RAF pilot. And the German pulled out his revolver and pointed it at this farmer. Told him to shoo off.
MH: Because you do hear don’t you of a lot of, a lot of parachuted aircrew that were turned on by the civilians. You do hear quite a bit of that having occurred which is very sad. But again fortunately then, we can actually say fortunately there was a German officer there to save him.
WA: That’s right.
[pause]
WA: That was the last one. The ops we did. Different pilots. Bombs had gone. Dropping bombs in the North Sea to get rid of them.
MH: What’s interesting, I’ve got to point this out to you, Bill. What’s interesting, Bill’s just pointing out to me a couple of entries in relation to May 1945 in his logbook. Now, you were in then the up to date Halifax Mark 6. Flying Officer Thrussel. It’s got here duty rear gunner. Did you go on that one there with the ferry flight because there was no other option? That was the only seat available or what took you to the rear turret on that occasion?
WA: It was just, you know because we lost all the air gunners because we didn’t need them. War was finished. So, when the Halifax went off and they said, ‘Well look, If you want to fly as a rear gunner, see what is happening,’ because when you’re a wireless op you couldn’t see much. So, you jumped in.
MH: Having changed your seat then for that particular time were you able to gain any sort of thoughts about what it would have been like to have been a Tail End Charlie as such?
WA: No. No.
MH: During your ops.
WA: No. You got Wingco, look [pause]
MH: Ah. So here, June, 5th of June 1945 in a Halifax Mark 6. The wing commander. Cook’s Tour. Ah, I’ve heard about these. Is that where ground personnel —
WA: Correct. We took them on.
MH: And they got to see the great, you know the work that you’d done. And the work that you’d carried out because they were unaware of it other than —
WA: That’s right.
MH: Movietone News etcetera. So, in August 1945 we appear to have an aircraft change.
WA: Transport Command.
MH: Transport Command. What, what made them— any ideas what made them change at that point? Was there more of a necessity for transport aircraft? I mean —
WA: Well, we didn’t need bombers. War was finished.
MH: The European one. But the war against Japan was, you know —
WA: Actually, what we were [unclear] we were flying to go to India to meet aircraft coming from Japan with Prisoners of War. And at Poona, India. And from that, the ones from Japan landed at Poona. The aircraft then flew from Poona to Cairo where they were put on York aircraft with a medical officer and a nurse. And from there they were transported back to England. And the pilots used to say, ‘Boys, we’re back in England.’ And I think they stopped it because some of the POW got so excited they expired. And we did hear afterwards that their, well their legs were like your arms. You know. Nothing.
MH: Yeah. I think, I think, I’d like to think that we’ve all, we’ve all seen the horrific photographs.
WA: Yeah. They used to come in to Hullavington which is now upgraded isn’t it? It’s Royal Hullavington. Is it?
MH: So, did you actually take part in any of those repatriation flights, Bill? Back to the UK?
WA: No. Because this is where I got this typhoid in Cairo. And also I found out that I’d been flying with a perforated ear drum.
MH: Oh dear. Oh —
WA: That’s why I’m completely deaf in my left ear.
MH: So, how long, how long did they think you’d had the perforated ear drum?
WA: Don’t know.
MH: Don’t know. Oh right. Ok.
WA: But that’s when they found out as I said. No more flying.
MH: So, that might have happened way way way way way back. Possibly on your first or second operation.
WA: Yeah.
MH: You’d gone all the way flying to the Ruhr and back with one ear drum.
WA: Well —
MH: Wow. That’s, that’s quite extraordinary. That, you know. That’s, you know. Because you managed to, you managed to hold down, you know the career that you had then. So what, when, what happened to you when you did your service Bill? What did you do post-service? What did you do after? What did you do after your service?
WA: I still carried on because I kept doing that, because when I came back to England up to Air Ministry, flying officer, he said, ‘Ah, Yatesbury. What do you know about medical?’ So, I said, ‘Not a lot. Nothing.’ They said, Right. You’ll go to RAF Yatesbury as a [pause] looking after transfers.’ Right. So, I goes down to Yatesbury for the third time. First of all as an airman. And later on. But I had quite a nice time at Yatesbury. Got into the football team. Got an injury. And one of the nurses looked after me who later became my wife. After a while they said, ‘Well, because you can’t fly and you’re only for a home,’ or they used to call it, France and Germany, ‘But you can’t go Far East because of your eardrum. We’ll have to transfer you to the MOD Air Force Department. But you won’t be in uniform. But they said we’ll help you out. We’ll count your service.’ So, that’s why when I retired at sixty I had a service commission, err pension.
MH: So, if I’m recollecting this correctly for our listeners you joined, you first of all went for air crew selection at the age of sixteen and a half. Got selected. And you retired from the Air Force technically at the age of sixty. Forty four long years of service to this country, Bill. That’s a long time.
WA: Yeah. But I enjoyed my time with the Royal Air Force. No regrets. My only regret is I had a perforated eardrum and I couldn’t carry on flying.
MH: What’s your, I’ve got to ask you an opinion, Bill. What’s your opinion on the way that Bomber Command have been treated?
WA: Grim.
MH: Grim. What makes you say grim?
WA: Because there was no medal for Bomber Command. The other services had something. I don’t think even Fighter Command had any much, you know. They saved us. The same as Bomber Command. They always said that Bomber Command was the only one of the three services that was operational. The poor old Navy couldn’t do much. Only look after home waters.
MH: Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel about the way that the young people of today view Bomber Command? With what we’re trying to achieve to bring it to their attention.
WA: I don’t think a lot of modern realise.
MH: Right.
WA: Because this what they’re building at Lincoln. The height of a, wingspan of a Hali or a Lanc. They had to ask for extra money but I don’t think they got much response from that. To me, a lot of people, well from once the war was ended things went quiet. It was forgotten.
MH: Ok. Right. I’ve got to ask you, going back to my list of questions. Your dad was in what would have been known during World War Two as the Fleet Air Arm. Why didn’t you choose the Fleet Air Arm, Bill over — what was it that turned you off the Navy and on to the Air Force as such?
WA: I don’t know. Aircrew to me was RAF.
MH: Right.
WA: That’s why.
MH: And you’d always wanted to fly. Where did that passion come from?
WA: Because I knew Morse. And I thought well there’s always a radio on bombers or aircraft.
MH: So was it your interest in radio at that time?
WA: Well, because Morse code was radio wasn’t? That was it.
MH: Leading on from that then I was reading about a particular aircraft the other day where they had a problem with the intercom on the aircraft. Got shot through during the war on a mission and they were using some sort of signal like Morse code tapping through the airframe so the rest of the crew knew what was going on. Because the pilot had designed a system where they knew that three taps mean bale out and all the rest of it. Did you have anything like that?
WA: No. No.
MH: So, when you went off you were basically reliant on the intercom system working all the time. Right. Right.
WA: And we, we knew what, alright we took off. Twenty four aircraft, we knew some of them wouldn’t be coming back but we were coming back. So that’s the way you looked at it. I’d think I know where my parachute is. I can soon grab it. And that’s it.
MH: Do you count yourselves as brave?
WA: No. Lucky.
MH: Lucky. Right. Ok. Alright. Because there would be a lot of us that would say what you did and your colleagues etcetera what you did and the young age that you were when you did it —
WA: That’s right.
MH: Was very brave.
WA: Twenty, twenty one, twenty two. That was it. And most of the names on that what they’re building at Lincoln opposite Lincoln Cathedral. They were all twenty, twenty one, twenty twos.
MH: People in the prime of their youth. Yeah. But it never worried you.
WA: No.
MH: Never scared.
WA: No. [unclear] that’s it.
MH: Positivity.
WA: Well.
MH: And you had a good pilot.
WA: Well, you’ve got, well yes. We had a damned good pilot. And it was the job. We had to do it. Someone had to do it.
MH: No, you’re right. Someone had to do it. Ok. Did you ever run across or come across Group Captain Pelly-Fry?
WA: No. I’ve heard about him.
MH: What can you tell us about him?
WA: Hi de hi Pelly-Fry.
MH: What can you tell us?
WA: Is that right?
MH: Yeah. What can you tell us about him?
WA: He was 76 Squadron before we got there. So, I don’t know. All I know that is he was known as Pelly-Fry. Wing commander.
MH: So, he then eventually went up Group Command didn’t he? Up to 4 Group.
WA: Yes.
MH: So, out of all the aircraft then that you served on and in, in what order would you put them as favourite to least favourite?
WA: My favourite. Well, it’s got to be the Hali. Damned good aircraft. She could take punishment and if she crashed she broke in to six pieces so you had more chance of getting out. Whereas the Lanc didn’t because the Lanc was an old aircraft. A twin-engined Manchester. Put two engines on it and called it a Lancaster. But it still had a thin fuselage and useless to get out of.
MH: Right.
WA: I suppose the worst aircraft was the old Proctor. With the single engine.
MH: Why? I’ve got to ask why.
WA: I don’t know [laughs] to me, so I say it didn’t have the guts like a Lanc, or a Hali I should say.
MH: Right. Yeah. So in all your time with Bomber Command you’d have seen sights that a lot of us wouldn’t want to see and would have lost friends, colleagues that sort of thing. But you were stoical throughout in your approach and you feel that you were lucky.
WA: Yes. Because often we used to say if it wasn’t for our skipper being an ex-fighter pilot he got us out of a lot of problems.
MH: After the war did you stay in touch with your crew or with your pilot or did you all go your separate ways?
WA: No. We all drifted away and that was it.
MH: Right.
WA: I met, the person who I kept meeting was Gus Walker, Air Commodore, who, he said, ‘I saw your old skipper in London last week,’ when he used to come on the station to the annual AOC. He’d say, ‘I met your old skipper in London. He’s still ok. Yeah.’
MH: Ok. That’s fabulous. Is there anything else, Bill that you’d like to add about your recollections?
WA: No. Just [pause] No. It was one thing I went through. No regrets.
MH: No regrets. Good. Lucky charms? Did you have any lucky charms that you carried about your person? Because I know a lot of aircrew used to have a teddy.
WA: A rabbit’s foot.
MH: And a rabbit’s foot.
WA: That’s right.
MH: And all that. Yeah. That sort of thing. Or a lucky coin, didn’t they? And that sort of thing. Clover leaf and what not. But no. What I’d like to do Bill is thank you very much for your time today.
WA: That’s nice. Thank you, Mark.
MH: I’m sure that people will thoroughly enjoy listening to this.
WA: I’ve got a bit of a throat, perhaps my voice doesn’t sound good today. It’s a bit throaty.
MH: It’ll be fine. It will be fine. But thank you very much for this afternoon. And I will be turning the tape recorder off.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with William Hubert Allen
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mark Hunt
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAllenWH170331
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:08:00 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
William Allen’s father had served with the Fleet Air Arm during the First World War. William also wanted to fly and so volunteered for the RAF at the earliest opportunity. He trained as a wireless operator. The crew arrived on the squadron and the pilot went as second dickie on a flight but was killed on the operation. William and his crewmates were now without a pilot and were transferred to 102 Squadron to continue operations. William and his crew were very conscious of the statistical chances that they would not come back but over cigarettes they would say that they would be coming back. However, they also left their cigarettes with the ground crew with the instruction that if they did not return to smoke them and remember them.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
10 OTU
102 Squadron
1658 HCU
76 Squadron
77 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
mid-air collision
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Pocklington
RAF Riccall
RAF Yatesbury
training
Whitley
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/571/10321/LFraserDK1566621v1.2.pdf
5152fef514148ca343378c083d1d6f84
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Fraser, Donald Keith
D K Fraser
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Fraser, DK
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Donald Keith Fraser DFM (1924 - 2022, 1566621 Royal Air Force), a memoir, his log book, photographs and service material. The collection also contains an interview with Sylvia Fraser, his wife. He flew a tour of operations as a flight engineer with 101 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Donald Keith Fraser and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Donald Fraser's navigator's, air bomber's, air gunner's flying log book
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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One booklet
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
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LFraserDK1566621v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Yorkshire
France--Modane
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Munich
Germany--Schweinfurt
Wales--Glamorgan
Germany--Braunschweig
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Poland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
Contributor
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Mike Connock
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator’s air bombers and air gunner’s flying log book for Donald Fraser DFM, flight engineer, covering the period from 17 July 1943 to 25 February 1946. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAF Lindholme, RAF Harrogate, RAF Bircham Newton, RAF St Athan, RAF Ludford Magna and RAF Ricall. Aircraft flown in were, Halifax, Lancaster I and III and Oxford. He flew a total of 29 night operations with 101 Squadron. Targets were, Leverkusen, Mönchengladbach, Berlin, Mannheim, Bochum, Munich, Hannover, Leipzig, Dusseldorf, Modane, Frankfurt, Stettin, Brunswick, Stuttgart, Schweinfurt and Augsburg. <span>His pilot on operations was</span> Pilot Officer Evans. The logbook also contains a pair of newspaper cuttings concerning Donald Fraser being awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal and a note signed by the Air Vice Marshal Commanding 1 Group for Donald Fraser’s award of the Distinguished Flying Medal.
101 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Cook’s tour
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Oxford
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/768/10769/ADavidsonTA170717.1.mp3
91ab9c07f826cc5c96182de712fc028c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Davidson, Thomas Aiden
T A Davidson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Tom Davidson (b. 1923, 1895266 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 466 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Davidson, TA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RS: Right. So, I just want to make sure that it is working. So, the timer is moving on so we’ll, we’ll make a start then. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name is Robb Scott and I’m interviewing Tom Davidson. We’re at Tom’s house at Washington, Tyne and Wear. It’s Monday, the 17th of July 2017 and it is ten past ten in the morning. Tom, first of all thank you very much for agreeing to do this with us this morning. We really do appreciate the time and effort you’re going to take with us today. I’m going to ask you one or two questions and then we want to hear your stories of the war and everything else around that. So, if we could make a start. Fairly straightforward Tom. If you could tell me where and when you were born and a bit about your background before the RAF please.
TD: I was born in Felling, Gateshead 1923. I was an apprentice engineer at Reyrolles, a big heavy engineering firm in Hebburn and war was declared three days after my sixteenth birthday. So I was an apprentice engineer. I’m pleased I’ve been asked to do this recording because it’s something I feel very strongly about. What men and boys and women went through in this country for peace and freedom must never be forgotten. I feel strongly about it because my only brother was killed also. But war is horrible. War is brutal. War is evil. But sadly sometimes war is justified and in my opinion World War Two was. I was just sixteen years and three days when war was declared and although we didn’t have TV or smart phones in those days I was well aware of the atrocities being carried out by Nazi Germany and Hitler’s ultimate aim to conquer Europe and to eliminate anyone who stood in their way or who didn’t match up to the idea of a true German. And in doing so they killed eleven million people. Eleven million men, women and children. At the time I was an apprentice engineer at Reyrolles, who were involved in war work and as such I was classed as being in a Reserved Occupation which meant I could never be conscripted in to any of the Armed Forces or Merchant Navy. Nor could I volunteer for them. I felt strongly that I wanted to do something to defend my country and my loved ones. I did get the chance at the time of Dunkirk when we were being evacuating from Europe. Winston Churchill, Prime Minister at the time appealed for all able bodied men, males rather between sixteen and sixty five to volunteer for the Local Defence Volunteer Force which later became the Home Guard. Better known as Dad’s Army I suppose. So I joined that and was in it until I joined the RAF. As the years went by and there seemed no end to the war due to the heavy losses suffered in Bomber Command the government decreed that men and boys, because you were just boys up to twenty one, in Reserved Occupations could volunteer to train as what we called PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer course. I immediately volunteered for it. I went down to what was known as Burton’s Buildings in Doncaster. Had five days of fitness tests, medical tests and intelligence tests and at the end went in front of an interview panel and I was accepted into the RAF to train as PNB. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. I was given my service number and put on deferred service until there was a training place available. However, at that time the four engine bomber had been introduced and there was an extra crew member was needed. So they created a new category. That of flight engineer, who’d be the pilot’s right hand man. Assist in pre and post flight checks, take-off and landing at the controls, be responsible for all the equipment on board, the pneumatics, electrics, fuel etcetera. And also I had to log the fuel consumption every twenty minutes. I received a request from the Air Ministry to consider training as a flight engineer and I accepted immediately. I reported to the Aircrew Receiving Centre at Lord’s Cricket Ground. We did three weeks there being kitted out. Medical examinations again. Inoculations, etcetera. And then we went on a six week square bashing course, doing aircraft recognition and a little bit of maths and all that sort of thing. And then after seven days leave I was posted to St Athans which was the training school for flight engineers. I’d also like to point out at this time that all aircrew, Bomber Command aircrew were volunteers. Every one of us. I went down to St Athans. Trained as a flight engineer for about seven or eight month and then got my brevet. Flight engineer’s brevet and sergeant’s stripes. Got seven days leave and was posted to what was known as a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall near Selby where we trained with experienced aircrew who’d done, served their tours. And we trained there to become competent flight engineers with experienced crew. And then came the time to be given a crew. So I was, about thirty or forty flight engineers arrived at RAF Acaster Malbis near York. We were there for about two or three days. Lessons I suppose. And we were told this afternoon that we would meet our pilot and meet our crew. An aircrew selection was the most haphazard chaotic system out. They flung all the aircrew into big arenas. Let them mingle together and they sorted a crew of six out first. And it was very successful method despite that. I would say ninety nine point nine percent of the time. And then we were told we would meet our pilot and subsequent crew. And this is true this is. I know it sounds [pause] There were double doors at the end of the room we were in and they were opened and these pilots were crowded in there. And I got my eyes on this pilot and I don’t know why but I thought I hope he comes for me. And sure enough he walked straight across the floor. This is absolutely true. It was like two lovers meeting on a dance floor but there was none of that involved in it. And he came, we had a little bit of a natter and he said, ‘Have you got a pilot?’ I said, ‘No.’ ‘Would you like to be my engineer?’ And I said, ‘Yes. I would.’ And we hit it off from day one. He was a fantastic pilot. Same age as me. We were just, in fact he was three weeks older than me. We were both twenty years of age by then. He was a great skipper. Very skilful. Great captain. Firm but friendly. Determined to get back home to South Australia and kept the crew on their toes. But he was a wonderful, wonderful pilot. Then I met the rest of the crew. Six Aussies. It was a wonderful experience. It turned out we hit it off from day one. We had a wonderful bond formed on that day which lasted well even up ‘til February of this year. I still contacted the crew. Kept in touch with them all. Met them from time to time. Sadly the last one, the rear gunner died in February this year. However, we went back to what was known as a Heavy Conversion Unit where we trained as a crew. And then when we were considered competent we were posted thankfully to an Australian squadron. 466 Squadron based at Driffield. We did further training there. Fighter affil. How to dodge enemy fighters. Fortunately these were Spitfires and Hurricanes we were playing with. Then we were posted as I said on this squadron and we were ready for our first op. A day on a squadron consisted, we reported for duty at 9 o’clock in our particular sections. I went to the engineer’s section to discuss various matters. Maybe evaders. Talking to you. Then at 10 o’clock the dreaded phone would ring and you hoped to hear the engineer leader repeat, ‘Nothing on today. Tonight.’ You knew you had another twenty four hours to live. But invariably it would come through, ‘Operations on today.’ It going to be a daylight. It’s going to be a night operation. And how many aircraft. One of us would go along to the duty room and get the crew roster for the operation, and then you hope your name wasn’t on it but when it was you just had to get on with it. You saw the list and your procedure for that was roughly, as far as I can remember you wrote your last letter. You had your last meal which was always bacon, egg and fried potatoes on the Aussie squadron. And then you went to the briefing room. Find out where your target was and then you sort of put things in order. Emptied your pockets. And then you went out and wait for the crew bus to take you to the parachute room to collect your parachutes and your escape kit. I’d just like to point out the first day I arrived on the squadron I met this lad that had slept in the next bed but one for six month. He was ahead of us on the course and he was going out on his, what was to be his sixth op. We had a meal together. Chatted until he was ready to leave and that was the last I saw of him. They were all killed that night. That was the starter. So to get back to going on our first op. We were in this billet with a crew who were in, going in C-Charlie and I think it was their third or fourth last operation. Some of them knew each other from even from school days. But we were very friendly with them and they said, ‘Stay with us. Stay alongside us.’ It was a daylight raid. ‘You’ll be alright.’ They were in C-Charlie.’ So we boarded. I’d better tell you know because I was asked once, ‘Was I scared?’ And I said, ‘No.’ And I was asked again, ‘You weren’t scared?’ And I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘I was bloody terrified,’ I said, ‘We all were.’ However, amazing thing was when I put the key in the plane to open up fear left you and your training took over because you had to concentrate every second. You had to have utter trust in your comrades and the crew and we were a good crew although I say it myself. We had, Pat insisted on us doubling up on different tasks. You know, I used to do, have a go in the rear turret and on the wireless just in case any of us weren’t available either through death or injury. So he, but he was a good skipper as I keep repeating. We set off. Took off for a raid on Sterkrade which was a raid I think it was synthetic oil plant, or a synthetic chemical plant. There were six hundred bombers that day. About thirty or forty mile from the target I saw this big black thing in the sky. I thought we’ve never been told about that and I hadn’t been on those tours over that part of the world to know what it was. But as you approached it was what was called a box barrage. Certain times Jerry threw up in a certain area and certain height everything they could. And I thought, well that’s stupid. We’ll just fly around it. But you didn’t. You were in the RAF. You had to stick to your flight path and the bombing run. And then we saw the planes getting hit. It was, it was a hell of a day that day. Anyway, C-Charlie was just ahead of us on our starboard side. I saw it get hit and smoke and flames coming out of it and I saw two crew jump out and a parachute open. But the third one must have jumped into a burst of flak because I just saw half. You know, a torso going past me. And then the plane setting on fire and burst into flames and exploded. And they were only, there were two didn’t get out. Six jumped out but two didn’t get out. Anyway, the next thing I knew was I saw the wireless operator crawling from his position which he didn’t have to leave over the target area. I switched my intercom on and said, ‘Pat, what’s the matter with Nev.’ and Pat, we went by Christian names although there was no idle chat on the intercom. He said, ‘Tom, are you alright? I’ve been trying to get you for five minutes.’ He said, ‘Is the port inner alright?’ And I looked and I said, ‘Yes.’ I looked again and said, ‘No.’ The red light was flashing. We’d actually been hit. So I told him to feather the engine to prevent fire or the propeller shearing off. I was actually sitting on top of the oxygen bottles and I had been physically sick. Whether it was with fear or shock or both I don’t know. But I saw, I think I was the only member of the crew that saw everything. Anyway, we carried on. Dropped our bomb load. Set off and of course well it left us stragglers behind all the other bombers. I thought every fighter in the Luftwaffe would be after us. But as we approached the North Sea and that there was about six Hurricanes. There was a few of us straggling. Picked us up until we got back to the UK. We landed that day. I remember when I jumped on the ground I thought God, I’ll never do it. Survive another twenty nine of these. However, we went for debriefing and that night I remember, I wouldn’t call it a dream, I think it was more a nightmare. I was driving to an RAF station, Usworth in a little RAF van. I was lying on the floor. The roof of the van was coming down on me and I woke up shouting, ‘I want to be out. I want to be out.’ I don’t think I was talking about I wanted to be out of the car. I think I wanted to be out of Bomber Command. But that was it. I had a few but never mind. We survived. Just to go back to C-Charlie. The flight engineer. They called him Peter Jack from Dumfries. We had our last meal together and he told me he was engaged to a girl just a few mile from where we lived. I think it was Willington Quay on Tyneside. He was expecting a silk scarf from her. Anyway, when we, the next morning when we went in the mess I saw where our letters and correspondence were kept and I saw this little brown parcel. Sergeant Jack. It was his silk scarf. There is a happy ending to that one which I’ll talk about later on. I’ll stick to the action. We went on many raids after that. We had some very scary moments. Some of them in this country. Not all. So, I’ll tell you some stories. Not in any particular order. But contrary to what I think is common belief we didn’t just drop randomly or anywhere. Every target, and we did thirty six, every target we did was either military or industrial. You took photographs of where your bombs would land and if you had too many misses, we, we didn’t, we were lucky in that respect. Our bomb aimer had been a flying, a bombing instructor. He was a flying officer. But if you did miss your target you had to what was known as an orbit. We had to do it two or three times being chased by fighters or searchlights and you had, which meant you had to climb with the full bomb load, do a full, outside of the bomber stream outside and that, if there was six or seven hundred, well it was a thousand at one time it was like driving up the, the M1 on the wrong side of the motorway with no lights on at night. A hell of an experience. We did it, as I say three times. We took, it was mainly when we’d been taking evasive action from either fighters or searchlights and you had to get onto your bombing run. Searchlights, although they couldn’t do you any damage were the most terrifying I found out. I thought it was just me but I’ve read about them and spoken to aircrews who felt the same. It was terrifying if they, what they called the master cone got on you. It was the blue one. Within seconds you’d get twenty or thirty searchlights on you. It lit you up and you just, that was it. We were caught twice, and again through Pat’s skill we got out of it but a most frightening experience. And you may have heard of the expression he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. Well, we bomber boys did that for two reasons. The first, well one reason was we had peashooters. 303s. Which were about I don’t know how many millimetres that is but roughly over a quarter of an inch. About seven millimetre peashooters. They had twenty millimetre cannon shells which shattering, were shattering the aircraft metal plates. And the second one was our range was, gunner’s range was four hundred yards. Theirs was up to about twelve hundred yards. So they had you in target long before we could do any damage. So the pilot had to do an evasive action which was called a corkscrew. And this is where the trust and confidence in crew members came in. At the crucial moment you would shout to the pilot, ‘Corkscrew. Corkscrew port,’ or, ‘Corkscrew starboard. Go.’ At the critical moment Pat would go into a dive and corkscrew. It was critical because if you went too soon they could veer off and chase you and if you called it too late well it was too late and you’d had your chips then, you know. So it was very critical that. It wasn’t a very welcome experience. G factor came into it a lot. But the Pathfinders were the ones who were down below. They would mark the target with target indicators. And if the winds or anything varied it they would just call out instructions to bomb somewhere to the left or the right of it. But it was very, very critical. They did a great job the Pathfinders. Two other hazards which you visit, visited and saw night after night was collisions between our own aircraft and bombs dropped. That was something really we had a great fear of was collisions because when you’re in cloud, particular at night and you know there’s four, five, six, seven hundred bombers there. You can’t see them but you knew they were there. It wasn’t a pleasant experience. But we got through it. We set off one evening which would have been a nine to ten hour trip deep into Germany. Chemnitz. And we were fitted with an extra petrol, fuel tanks. We dropped our load and making for home but we lost this extra tank. I used to do the fuel consumption every twenty minutes and I calculated on this occasion we were coming home from this flight we were going to run out of fuel before we got to the English Coast. So I told Pat these details. I said, ‘We’ll have to find, see if there’s a suitable aerodrome in the north of France we can land at.’ And I don’t want to do the Aussies any disrespect because I love them. Love them very, very much. But someone suggested we make for near Brighton. There were plenty of airfields there. Brighton was a Reception Centre for the Aussies when they came over and probably had happy memories there. But I said to Pat, ‘Pat, if we, if you try to make it for the UK I’ll be jumping out before we leave the French coast.’ However, again he trusted my calculations and we had a heck of a job finding a suitable aerodrome. We did find one at Juvencourt. It was an American one actually. It wasn’t in good working order but we managed to land at night and we landed and two engines cut out and the rest cut out. This is in the Australian War Museum Archives. It’s a true story. And it’s not often I could get Aussies to eat humble pie but they did on that occasion. Another nasty experience was we’d been warned for several ops that we may get intruders. You know, German fighters coming back with the bomber stream. On this occasion I was back changing the tanks over and I was off the intercom. And we had a set procedure when we landed, the pilot and I. And the crew just make for the exits and running out, jumping out making for a slit trench. Fortunately, I was the last one to get in. We’d been told there had been intruders at certain heights and they were just strafing the aerodrome. There was a slit trench near the parking bay where we were and we dived into that. Some of them squealed. I thought they’d been hit but as they told us later the ground crew used that as a toilet. Three of them. Well, you could say they landed in a mess but I was alright. But they strafed the ‘drome for about an hour and a half and we lost two that night over the aerodrome. Four of them were killed in one aircraft. They were in our billet. And they were losing height and the navigator came to the exit and the engineer was stood there. He was afraid to jump. The navigator was trying to push him out, you know. Getting. But he wouldn’t go so the navigator eventually jumped out. Sadly the engineer changed his mind and jumped out but it was too late so there were only two survivors from that one, you know. Another dodgy landing happened to us one night when they were trying a new, it was a brilliant light system which we used when it was very dark and that. Foggy. And when we came in to land we were the third aircraft down. The two previous ones had just hit the end of the runway. Unfortunately, before the flight commander could get the lights turned off and the original ones put on we touched down well short of the runway and there was a blinding flash and I thought we’d crashed into a forest nearby. But Pat managed to gain height and what had actually happened we’d gone through telegraph wires that had ripped the side of the fuselage, caught the bomb aimer from just outside his eye and ripped his side of his face open. And we were very very lucky to get through but again Pat’s strength got us through that one. Another very scary incident which happened in the UK was when we’d taken, when we were going on a morning op to Duisburg. We’d been having trouble with the starboard inner engine. Been out with the ground crew and that. But you didn’t like to call your operations off plus the fact you wanted to get through your tour. So we took her on a test flight. It was ok. Anyway, the time comes to take off. To set off. We were setting off to Duisburg and I was standing watching the panel to make sure that the dodgy engine wouldn’t let us down. So we got on to the runway. Got the ok to take off. Got the green light to take off and Pat set off along the runway to take off. And then I just saw the revs drop on the port inner. I yelled to Pat to abort take-off. Abort the take-off, which he did and it cut out. The port inner engine cut out. We swung off the runway. Bomb. Full bomb load but thankfully I’m telling this tale because the bombs didn’t go off. But that was very, very scary indeed but it just another case of trusting each other’s competence.
[pause]
Although we were all volunteers in Bomber Command aircrew and could at any time say we didn’t want to fly any more we’d be taken off flying duties immediately. We’d go in front of a tribunal. And in my case if I had decided I’d have been reduced to an AC2, discharged from the RAF with my documents stamped with big LMF. Lack of Moral Fibre. And then I would have been discharged from the RAF and sent back home. Gone back to my, finish my apprentice in the engineering company. It did happen on very, very rare occasions. I think there was about, out of two hundred and odd crews you’re talking seven times that. About four in our squadron. I remember one was an engineer and one was an Aussie pilot. I remember those two in particular. But even if I thought about it I would never have done it. I couldn’t do it. I still felt strongly even though I was married to the love of my life and my brother Frankie had, who was also a flight engineer had been killed on his first operation. I still felt the job had to be done. And I’m pleased I had the courage to stay in and not come out. A couple of stories which might be of interest. When we did these long flights into Germany it was suggested or advised even that if we got into trouble it might be better to make for North Africa rather than trying to reach the English Coast. So on these occasions and it happened to us on about four or five occasions we were given what was known by the rank and file as goolie chits. Because at the time there was a barbaric custom in Africa, North Africa whereby when, and this was from the 1920s and as far as I know the nineteen, early ‘50s it was still prevalent. If an aviator landed his private parts were cut off and sewn in his mouth. And although the reward was in Arabic, if this person, aviator, I can’t remember what it said now was handed in intact they would be rewarded with twenty five pound which had probably made them millionaire’s overnight. But it was always my greatest fear that I’d be found by an Arab who couldn’t read who had a dirty pair of garden secateurs in his hand. And the fear of that I think put us all off. We never tried to land in Africa [laughs] and to my mind, but it could have happened I don’t think many would have welcomed that opportunity to be castrated. But there you are. That was one story. Another just on a light hearted note was, concerns my wonderful wife Mary. I had this photograph in my locker and when I was going on ops I used to pick it up, give it a kiss, turn it and face the door and when I got to the door I used to turn around to say words to the effect, ‘I hope I come back to see you again, Mary.’ Which I did on thirty six occasions. We went on to have a wonderful life together. We’d been on our squadron I think when they brought the troops over they put extra cakes and rations in because we did very well and they had, they loved their fruitcake. Especially when they’d been out on the town or the village and they liked their hot cocoa and fruit cake. So I, in my daily letter to Mary I asked her this time if there was any chance of her making a fruit cake to bring back to the camp. She was at the time, she was an apprentice also at a ladies tailoress and dressmaker. Never done any cooking in life. Anyway, I brought it back and it was in a tin which she used to keep her best handkerchiefs in because there were no tissues in those days. And she kept her best silk handkerchiefs in this small round biscuit tin. Anyway, we came back this night and one of the crew said, because they’d all met Mary, the crew and I was the only married one in the crew, ‘What about Mary’s cake.’ So I got the cake out of the nice tin. Cut a piece off and I remember, I remember handing it to Bluey, our mid-upper gunner. I cut the other, another piece off to give to one of the crew. As I’m just about to hand that out Bluey shouts, ‘Tom,’ he says, ‘What the hell is in this? He says, ‘Taste it.’ I took a bite of it and it was [pause] well Mary I’m sorry I won’t say too much about it but it wasn’t pleasant. So one of them said, ‘Put it back in the tin,’ bearing in mind they’re Aussies, ‘Put it back in the tin and we’ll drop it over Germany. If it doesn’t kill them when it hits them on the head it will when they eat it.’ So it went back in the tin. We fastened it up as best we could and when I was operating our on the next trip, operating the Window chute, dropping the window down the window chute I got Mary’s tin with the cake and dropped it out. What happened to it we don’t know but Mary used to say it was her humanitarian effort to help the poor starving Germans. So I’ll take it on Mary’s word but it did actually happen. Coming back to Peter Jack, the engineer on C-Charlie who was shot down on our first op. After the war in one of the main streets in Newcastle I was standing outside this silk material shop. Mary, as I said Mary was a dressmaker. She was inside getting material and I was standing out in the main street and I saw this warrant officer walking up on the other side of the road but I didn’t pay much attention. And then he walked over towards me and it was Peter Jack. He’d been the only survivor of the crew. There was two who didn’t make it. They had a spare dickie. A spare dickie was a rookie pilot who, to get experience did his, did a flight just by himself with another crew to get the feeling of a raid. Two of them blew up with the plane. Six of them got out. One I saw with just a torso. And the only one that was taken prisoner was Peter. We don’t know exactly what happened to the other crew but I’ve a fair idea. And Peter did marry his fiancé from Tyneside. There was another peculiar, strange, unbelievable incident happened to one of our crew. One of our crew members. Pilot Joe Herman. We were on the same raid with them and they got hit very badly. Fires on, and baling out. Well, in our aircraft I used to stand with, the pilot couldn’t put the ‘chute on but the rest of the crew could. So I used to stand over the target area with the pilot’s parachute ready to hand to him. But on Joe Herman’s I don’t know what happened that night. The engineer was probably they reckon putting, trying to put a fire out. But his mid-upper gunner was standing with his parachute up. They all baled out except Joe and the pilot and then the plane blew up. And they were at seventeen thousand feet evidently. Joe has no parachute. He’s coming down. He sees something glistening, grabs it, this thing lets out a terrific scream. Yelling. It was his mid-upper gunner and he’d grabbed his legs and unfortunately one of them was broken. But thank God they both landed together. They were both badly injured but they survived and lived to their nineties. One of them, I think the gunner was killed in a motorbike accident but Joe survived right to the nineties. He was in a hell of a mess but, you know he survived. All that time there was that fear but as I mentioned earlier on your training. And it, it was, it happened to all of us, our training took over and you knew you had to concentrate for your survival and your crew. You wanted to come home every night. The fear left you. It probably came back over the target area but it was just something we had to face night after night. But as I keep repeatedly saying it had to be done. It just had to be done despite all the fifty percent loss of aircrew. And to come back to my brother he was shot down on 18th 19th of November 1943 and they didn’t find the remains until November 1947. They were reburied in Rheinberg Cemetery. But every time his wife went out for those four years, four lonely years she used to leave a place setting for him and a little note where she was going and the time she’d come back. And she did that even after she got notification that they had found his grave. It affected her mentally. It was a shame. She was a schoolteacher. And that was a tragedy of war. So I finished my tour and I’ll just quote if I may what my pilot wrote the day after. These are my pilot’s words, Pat Gillis. “The worst part of my story has now arrived as we would most likely be sent in different directions.” This was at the end of his tour. “As a crew we all realised just how lucky we were to have completed a tour of operations and still be in one piece. It was a miracle. As the captain of this crew I can say that the dedication each one of my crew showed in each of their duties they had to perform in their positions was A1. We were able to discuss so many problems put to us and then come up with the answers. It made my position as captain easier to consider and make all the final decisions. It is hard to imagine that a crew made of men, or at that time boys from three states of Australia and one from England could mould together and work so well as one team. It was a sad experience when we all split up and sent on leave. The six Australians were sent on extended leave which meant that every day we had to contact Driffield to find out whether we had been posted or leave extended. Tom Davidson our English flight engineer was taken back in to the RAF after being on loan to our Australian squadron of the RAF.” I’d like to go back to my first operation. When we touched down, as I said, I didn’t think I could make another twenty nine but I made another thirty six. But when you looked at the damage on the aircraft the size of the hole was about the size of house door in the port wing. How it missed all the controls, the electrics, the fuel, the hydraulics was nothing short of a miracle. And the next day the ground staff counted thirty three flak holes in the aircraft. This happened, of course you know on a regular basis. We got hit nearly every night. Some nights we were unscathed but most nights we had flak damage, some more severe than others and yet we were so so fortunate on the thirty six trips never touched any of the crew, never touched any of the controls. Which brings us around to talking about our pilot, Pat. We always considered him to be the best pilot on the squadron. As probably every other crew did with their pilot. But we felt we were the only ones who were right. At an ANZAC reunion two year ago at the old squadron at Driffield I was told by a historian, squadron historian that Pat was classed as being in the top five pilots on the squadron. Well, we had over two hundred pilots which put him in the top two and a half percent. But in our opinion, certainly in my opinion he was in the top one percent. He was a fantastic pilot. I kept in touch with him until he died and his wife, Peg. Now, I’m in touch with two of the family and we’ve met from time to time. And also I’m in touch with the rear gunner’s family. The rear gunner, sadly Bill died in February this year but I’m still in touch with his family. We had a great bond. It’s an experience I’ll ever forget. I don’t dwell on it. It’s only the last few years my oldest grandson got me to talk about it. But if I can just say at Remembrance time each year and I give a reading and place a wreath at our village Memorial Service about three or four days before Remembrance Day I cry a lot. A lot of memories come flooding back which I never think about really from one year’s end to another. But it’s not something. I’ve had a very very happy life. Wonderful seventy years with my marriage with my beloved Mary. And when I was finished with Driffield I was posted to an RAF station, but a Free French Air Force Training Unit up at Lossiemouth. It was a bit scary with them not always speaking English. Sometimes they broke into their French and we had a few accidents up there. Not communicating properly with the flight control. After that I was posted out to Egypt. But I was flown home on a compassionate. I asked for compassionate leave because our oldest son Peter who was only six months at the time wasn’t expected to survive bronchial pneumonia. But they flew me home on a compassionate posting. And although he was given up twice he survived it thanks to penicillin and he is now seventy, seventy two years of age this year. And then I was given a compassionate posting near home. And then before I was demobbed I was, went down to RAF Catterick to be advised on what we should do after, after demob and after four days testing, exams and all that I was advised to either go in for teaching or Civil Service. But in those days having grown up in a depressed area in Tyneside. Grew up during the Depression. Having an apprenticeship was a wonderful achievement and the thought of losing that if I didn’t complete it and not having a job, I didn’t have the courage to take up either of these suggestions. However, I finished my apprenticeship. Had a wonderful life. And I did eventually get qualifications teaching and finished up as an engineering lecturer. So I’ve had no regrets in life. I’ve had a wonderful life. My wonderful Mary and our three children, grandchildren. A very very rich life. Lucky to have survived. So I think that’s the end of my wartime experiences in the RAF. One of the lucky fifty percent who survived.
RS: Well, Tom. Thank you. That was very, very moving and a privilege for me to sit and hear. So thank you very much indeed for that. Before I end the recording is there anything else you want to talk about? Is there anything else that maybe has jogged your memory while you’ve been talking?
[pause]
TD: Just I think the bond that was forged between the crew members and particularly our crew was just something that I’ll never experience again. Our life depended so much on each other. Our trust in our efficiency and competence. But they were just a great bunch of lads. We got on so well from day one. I used to say I was, the number one crew in Bomber Command were lucky to have the number one flight engineer with them, you know. Such a great crowd. I’m only joking when I say that but it’s true [laughs] No. No. I think that’s about all, Rob. I could go on for quite some time but they are the relevant points to my experience. The things that matter. Things that affected me. But I’ve never suffered from what I saw. I think I’ve written about the things I won’t tell anyone. Not even my family. But I joined up to do it and we did it and that was it. I think that’s about all. And thank you so much for putting up with me telling that.
RS: Well, thank you very much, Tom. It’s now quarter past eleven and we’ll terminate the interview there. Thank you very much, Tom.
TD: Thank you, Rob. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Thomas Aiden Davidson
Creator
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Rob Scott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADavidsonTA170717
Format
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00:46:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Description
An account of the resource
Born in Gateshead, Thomas was an apprentice railroad engineer. With the war beginning three days after his 16th birthday, Thomas feels very passionately about the British experience of the Second World War, as his only brother was killed. He claims to have been very aware of the atrocities of the Nazi regime and was inspired to volunteer, despite being in a reserved occupation. He joined Bomber Command following the introduction of four-engine bombers, creating the flight engineer job role, of which he trained for. Training at RAF St Athans for six weeks, he completed his Heavy Conversion Unit course at RAF Riccall, eventually joining a crew of Australians. Placed on 466 Squadron at RAF Driffield, he recalls pre-operations activities crew used to partake in, including last meals, chatting, and briefings. He states that he and his crew were entirely terrified until they got onto the aircraft, in which their mutual trust took over their fear. He recounts seeing several aircraft being hit on his first operation, with many having people he knew in them. He recalls having nightmares after his operations, alongside several near-death experiences, both on operations and around the airfield. He continues to explain the culture surrounding leaving the RAF, including the fear surrounding Lack of Morale Fibre and why he choose to carry on. Thomas recalls rarely talking of his experience and that it was only recently in which he opened up about the war. He believes that he was lucky to have survived but states that he continues to remember those who have passed away during remembrance days. He believes that he and his crew had a fantastic bond and that was the most important experience of the war.
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
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1943-11-18
1943-11-19
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
466 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
fear
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
Home Guard
lack of moral fibre
military ethos
perception of bombing war
RAF Driffield
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/837/10827/PGoldbyJL1701.1.jpg
a45bc6d8a3e3b396aa60a0e197184a52
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/837/10827/AGoldbyJL171025.2.mp3
eeb8f152cb68ea23e18042b8b5151712
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Goldby, John Louis
J L Goldby
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with John Goldby (1922 - 2020, 1387511, 139407 Royal Air Force). He was shot down and became a prisoner of war in December 1944.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by John Goldby and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Goldby, JL
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell. The interviewee is John Goldby. The interview is taking place at Mr Goldby’s home in Keston in the county of Kent on the 25th of October 2017. Ok, John. Well, if you’d like to perhaps kick off. Tell us a bit about where you were born and about growing up.
JG: Yes. I was born in Bexley, Kent in 1922. The next thing, the following year the family moved to Sidcup and my home until I joined up was in Sidcup. I went to what was then called the Sidcup County School before that was then turned into a grammar school and I went, started there in 1931 and I stayed there until the end of the summer 1939. From there on I, until I joined up I worked for a private bank, Brown Shipley and Company in the City of London. And I worked for them until I joined up in May 19 — 1941.
DM: What, when you, what prompted you to join the air force as opposed to going into another service?
JG: Well, my reason for the air force was I had a friend who was at the school who was about a year older than I was and as soon as he could join anything he joined the air force and became a Spitfire pilot. I thought that’s just the thing. One, one great advantage is if something happens to you when you’re at ten twenty thousand feet up there’s a chance of something might come to your rescue in those twenty thousand feet. Whereas if you are shot on the battlefield that’s where you’ll lie. And if you fall in the water in certain circumstances in the Navy that’s where you’ll end because the water is very cold. I stayed with the bank until such time as I, as I was actually called up because until I was eighteen I wasn’t allowed to go. But when the time came in 1941 I joined and I was, had been recorded as being fit for either pilot or navigator training. Because at that time it was the beginning of the expansion of Bomber Command to the four engine aircraft which meant there were now there was a bomb aimer and a navigator and as it happened the extra body and above that was a flight engineer.
DM: Where? When you say you signed up and then you were called up?
JG: Yes.
DM: To go and train. I assume that was the next thing.
JG: That’s right.
DM: Where did that happen? Where did you go for that?
JG: They were, the receiving wing as it was called was in Babbacombe in, in Devon and I went down there on the 31st of May 1941. After a couple of months or so then started ground, with air crew ground training. Morse code and all that sort of thing. Aircraft recognition. The sort of basic things which would then enable me to go on to flying training. In fact, some of my ground training was up here at Kenley which was a fighter aircraft airfield and was involved in the Battle of Britain or had been by the time I got there. And that was a number, there were quite a lot of these actual operational stations which housed training. Ground training for aircrew. Eventually, having done ground training I was then allocated a position in Air Observer School for training, as they were called then air observers. And the one, and then they were allocated on the basis of alphabetical order. And there were five of us in on the list whose initial was G. And the five of us who’d been looking forward to going to either South Africa or Canada or somewhere exotic like that found ourselves going to the Isle of Man. And I thought what a jolly place to be for the cold winter because that’s where I started training in October 1941 and I stayed there until May 1942. And then it was to Operational Training Unit. And in those days Operational Training Unit, the individual aircrew got together and formed a crew. It was virtually sort of go and find someone who you liked, feel you would like to fly with. It wasn’t mandatory as far as I know who you were allocated or I was and then people were added of course. A pilot who was in army uniform and in fact he had opted to change to aircrew which of course you could do if you wanted to go aircrew. And that’s another thing with the police. The police were allowed to leave and join up for aircrew duties. And so we had, we had a lot of police in our intake if you like who’d done all sorts of jobs in the police. And I flew, we used to fly in pairs on navigational training. And the extraordinary thing really for navigational training we were flying Blenheims which were actually operational aircraft. And it was the fastest aircraft I think I flew in the whole war. That’s — and I flew with a chap who had been a policeman in Glasgow. Actually, he was a mobile policeman. Anyway, the bombing training was from Hampdens, both of those aircraft were of course twin-engine. And then, and air gunnery we flew in, again in Blenheims firing at a drogue. And the training there lasted from the October ’41 to May ’42 and then back to this country. And then in the June on we went to [pause] can we stop it for a moment?
[recording paused]
JG: Still training. An Operational Training Unit which was at Stanton Harcourt which was a subsidiary to, or satellite to RAF Abingdon. When having or while we were there my pilot went on the first thousand bomber raid in, in May ’42 as a sort of, as a second pilot. Then in June, on the 25th of June ’42 we flew as a crew to Cologne in a Whitley. That was on the three days before my twentieth birthday which was the 25th of June 1942. We flew on the 25th. Did I say 25th? The 28th of June is my birthday.
DM: Right.
JG: Did I make a mistake there?
DM: That’s ok. So your birthday’s the 28th of June.
JG: 28th
DM: You flew on the 25th.
JG: The 25th
DM: A few days before. Yeah.
JG: Having finished there at OTU we then went to RAF St Eval. And the policy at that time was that crews that were now finished OTU, certainly from 4 Group went down to do a number, or several months’ worth of flying in Whitleys in, on an anti-submarine role. An anti-submarine role.
DM: So, St Eval is in Cornwall. Is that right?
JG: Cornwall.
DM: Yeah.
JG: That’s right. We, we used to fly ten hour sorties from there and when we came back the next day we were absolutely clear. We didn’t do anything that day. In fact we couldn’t probably hear anything that day but because the conditions of course in the Whitley are pretty cramped. But we had to do the ten hours and the following day was a free day. The next day we were briefed on what the flight was to be the following day. And that was the pattern. And you had a free day, briefing and then the next day you flew. I did, as far as I can recall — one of the problems I have is that my, I never retrieved my logbook following becoming a POW when all my stuff was taken and distributed. So, one way or another I didn’t ever get my book back and I’ll say a bit more about that later. Anyway, after that, after our period down there in Cornwall we came back up to Yorkshire to the, to a Conversion Unit on the four engine aircraft. And that was when I joined or after that period in a, in the Marston Moor was the Conversion Unit in Yorkshire. And we flew then with, now with the extra crew the [pause] I suppose we spent about a month there and then as a crew we went to RAF Linton on Ouse and joined 78 Squadron which was at that time commanded by Wing Commander Tait, T A I T. Known as Willie Tait and who ended his career, I suppose it would have been when he took on the final sortie against the Tirpitz. He, I don’t know — there was a programme on last night. Was of the 617 Squadron and the, and the nine aircraft that flew on this final sortie and demolished the Tirpitz, it was about the fourth or fifth time they’d done it. Had not had a big enough bomb which of course had to be designed by Barnes Wallis who was the author, if you like, of the bomb, the bouncing bomb. Anyway, Willie Tait was a bit of a frightening man. He was not popular because he was so blooming strict and didn’t fraternise really with other aircrew. And it was particularly noticeable because Linton on Ouse was shared between 78 Squadron with Willie Tait and 76 Squadron with Leonard Cheshire and they were so different it’s hardly true. So, we arrived there in October and we started operations. Starting with what we used to call, or was called gardening. That’s mine laying. Which counted for only one operation. People disappeared on those things so how they could justify going down for, on a half an op, I don’t know. And I stayed there with 78 Squadron until March ’43. That was, that was’ 42. ’43, I had gone down at the end of February ’43. I was commissioned and I went down to London to get kitted out. I came back and I developed a raging throat infection. It turned out to be an abscess and I was put into hospital and I never re-joined 78. I then went on sort of sick leave and eventually I had the tonsils out at the time of my 21st birthday before then going on to the sort of thing that one did at the end of a tour of operations which was as an instructor. And that’s when I went in that year down to Moreton in Marsh flying Wellingtons. I stayed there [pause] I’m getting a bit. Will you turn it off a bit?
[recording paused]
JG: My time at Moreton in Marsh lasted until the spring of 1944. Following that I completed a bombing leader course at the Armaments School at RAF Manby in January 1944. At the end of that I then went to RAF Riccall. This was another of the Conversion Units. Yeah. And from there, after doing the bombing leader course I went from the — to this. To Riccall. RAF Riccall which was the conversion [pause] I’d better have it off.
[recording paused]
JG: Riccall. RAF Riccall, on a refresher course before joining a Squadron. And that’s where I was on D-day. So, by the time I reached 640 Squadron it was the end of June 1944 and that’s where I went to take up the post of bombing leader.
DM: When you went — so you were on your new base.
JG: Yes.
DM: You were now a bombing leader. Did you have a crew?
JG: No.
DM: Or were you a sort of a spare bod?
JG: That’s right.
DM: As they said.
JG: That’s right. Yes. Well, I’ve got in my notes down here. In that position I was supposed to stay. Fly no more than two operations a month which was not very much. And I was the one who selected when I would go and with whom. Sensibly and logically really the ones I went on I was actually taking the place of somebody in the crew who was not able to go on that particular flight. Illness or whatever reason. And I was flying, we were coming up to Christmas and I am sure that I had by that time I had done, I’d flown twelve operations and the one that I was going on was to be my thirteenth actually of my second tour. I decided that I was going to have to do at least one anyway in December. So I selected one on the 6th of December because that was where the usual permanent bomb aimer was ill. So, I took his place. So I was flying with that crew for the first time ever. The only one of them, of the crew, commissioned was the pilot. I knew him because we were both commissioned. But the rest of the crew non-commissioned I hadn’t met before even. And of course I made the great mistake that I’d picked the wrong one. It was, shouldn’t have been a particularly dangerous one but anyway over Germany and this is now where there’s a bit of a gap in what happened because I see I’m actually have been recorded as being shot down. I always doubted that because the manner in which we crashed. There was, we weren’t attacked by anything. And what I believe and I’m hoping I will get one day confirmation of this, we collided with a German night fighter. And the reason I say that is because in the report that I got back from the Air Ministry things apparently a night fighter was lost that night in that area and reported a collision. And the circumstances of the accident lead one I think to conclude that it’s certainly much more likely to have been a collision because from going from the pilot completely under control to immediately losing control and I conclude, and most people think it’s much more likely I think that we collided with this thing and it took our tail off because in no time at all we were in a spin. And as we spun down it was impossible to get out of the aircraft because the, what do you call it force?
DM: The G Force.
JG: G. Yes. Really. You couldn’t lift a hand to get out. And then they, there was this crashing sound which I believed was we were hitting the ground. I thought well this is it but in fact within seconds I suppose it would be only I found myself outside in the fresh air on a dark December night. I had my parachute pack on because I’d already put that on as soon as there was an emergency and I opened that up and then descended by parachute. And there was not a sound or a sign of anything which was connected with the accident. So the aircraft had gone down. I was now floating down. Way behind it I suppose. And I don’t believe that was as a result of an actual physical attack. But being shot down it certainly wasn’t. The evidence points to that I think. I’ve tried to find out more about that. With a bit of luck my elder son who is coming down at the beginning of December is going to review records to see if he can find out any more about it. Or if there is any way one can get through Germany. I don’t suppose there’s anything anyway. They won’t have kept much of that sort of record. But we’ll see. But I’ve always had an open mind about this. So, how I came down I don’t know. But I came down in a flooded field. I didn’t realise at the time but I looked down and saw this expanse of water. I couldn’t make it out because we were nowhere near the sea or any large expanse of water. And I came down. I thought I had broken my right leg. I was holding my leg in both hands, both arms because of the pain and the trousers torn. Blood all over the place. And I went in left leg first and sprained my leg because it turned out to be a flooded field which was not very helpful. Fell over and got soaking wet. I spent a bit of time in some bushes trying to find out what was wrong with me if I could and then sort of get myself composed enough to move on. Eventually I did. I moved on in the direction of some houses. I knew by compass the heading of course. I had no idea where I was on the ground. How far I’d fallen before I opened the parachute. Anything like that. So, I eventually got into a farmyard and into an open cart and I examined my body to see what was wrong and also to get rid of my wet things which were very wet. The only trouble was I was going to have to sort of wring them out and put them back on again. Which I did. And while I was in the cart, presumably members of the farm came out, calling out, ‘Is there anybody there?’ Or what I assumed was what they were after. Of course, I kept quiet and they would go away and enable me then to start my escape. Eventually I got out of the farm. I realised I had just flesh wounds on my right leg. It was nothing really serious but my hands were cut, my face was cut. Anyway, off I went in the early hours of the next morning. The 7th. I was walking down a country lane actually with not a sound or sign of anybody when I was stopped by a guard, an armed guard who I believe to have come from the local Luftwaffe station. Anyway, by now I was a prisoner of course and from then on I spent a bit of time there while they organised my — oh no. What am I talking about? No. I was put into a hospital. It was a civil hospital run by nuns. And the four of us who had survived this accident which was me, the flight engineer, the wireless operator and the navigator we, we were not too far dispersed on the ground when we landed. So that they got us together and then planned, I presume what they were going to do with us. And fortunately for me the flight engineer and I were put into hospital where we were very well treated. The flight engineer was very badly injured. He’d broken all sorts of his body and the extraordinary thing is with him we were in this room together, we talked together all the time because there was no one else to talk to and he had not realised what had happened to him. Where he was. He could not remember anything following taxiing out to take off the night before. The 6th. And he never did as far as I know. But he was in a very bad way and he was still in hospital when I left which was somewhere towards the mid to I haven’t got the actual date of this. January. One day a guard appeared at my door and I was told to dress and follow him in about, at least six inches of snow outside and as this was going to be my first walk following the parachute descent I wasn’t too happy about it. But fortunately he had a bicycle and I was allowed to push it in the manner of the zimmer really while he walked beside me. We went to the local Luftwaffe station and then a few days later two guards arrived and started me on my way down to the Frankfurt. The Dulag Luft Interrogation Centre where I was, everyone was when you arrived there you go in to solitary and they liked to make it as unpleasant for you as they can. The bed was just two or three struts across the frame. A blanket and a pillow and that was basically it. If you wanted to use the lavatory you had to operate a little lever on the inside of the thing, of the room which indicated to the guard outside that you wanted to go. Whereupon they either came or they didn’t which was a bit, could be difficult. So you really had to plan in advance. And then of course once you were in there, you got to the loo as soon as you got there and if you wanted to sit down they shouted, ‘Come out.’ And made it, everything was made unpleasant. The food we had for breakfast we would have coffee, and [pause] I think that’s about it. But there would have been the bit of black bread anyway with nothing much on it. If anything. At lunchtime it would be a watery soup. And then an evening meal was the black coffee again and with bread and a bit of something on it. The heating, the room was heated by a radiator which was, made the room, when it was on it was unbearably hot. During the night they would turn it off so you would awaken frozen stiff. And that was where you stayed until they let, said they’d had enough of you in interrogation. There was nothing much really I could have told and everything that they had, they’d had members of my crew already through there so I was having to be careful about what I said. They said, ‘You were a flight lieutenant bomb aimer. You must have been the bombing leader.’ Which they knew quite a lot about but which I denied but whether they believed me I don’t know. But eventually I was on my way and the, we were after, yeah there was a spell while they gathered a number of people to make it worth shipping them off to a POW camp I suppose. But then we would go from there by train to the POW camp. We had no idea where it was going to be but we were led to believe it was somewhere in East Germany. And we then, we discovered eventually what our destination was and that we were going by train via Berlin. Which we were not looking forward to. But we were in ordinary carriages of compartments with ten in each. We took it in turns to sleep on the carriage rack. Luggage rack. Otherwise you couldn’t stretch out at all. After several days and I’m not quite sure how long actually but we arrived at Stalag Luft 1, and it’s address is Barth. B A R T H. In fact — will you turn it off again?
[recording paused]
DM: Ok.
JG: I’ll go from where we left Dulag Luft following interrogation at about 1 pm on Saturday 13th and arrived at Wetzlar at 6am on the Sunday. Where that is I don’t know but the distance between the two camps was a little over forty miles. Here we stayed until the following Saturday living twenty four men to a room and eating three times a day in the mess hall. It was at this camp we had Red Cross clothing issued. Two — what they were I don’t know, two packets of American cigarettes and a subsequent issue of ten a day while we were there. Most important was the shower. My first decent wash in Germany. On Saturday January the 20th 1945 of course we’re talking about here a party of eighty of us left for Stalag Luft 1 situated at Barth on the Baltic coast. The journey was expected to last anything from four to seven days and we were there and we were provided with a half a Red Cross parcel per men together with a ration of a fifth of a loaf of bread per day. We travelled in a carriage. Ten men to a compartment and the coach was hooked on to those engines and shunted back and forth in the manner of a freight car. We never actually left the carriage throughout the journey. We ate very well but sleep was difficult and we were relieved to hear that we were making good time. On route we passed through Berlin where we had to wait several hours for the next and last connection. It was a sigh, with a sigh of relief that we left the capital and continued on our way. On Monday evening at 4.50 or 4.30 we arrived at Barth. We spent the night in the railway carriage and on Tuesday morning marched to the camp some three miles north. On arrival we had a shower and our clothing was deloused. Later we were issued with mugs but also knife, fork and spoon and palliases and pillows. Once again we slept in rooms built to hold twenty men. The beds they arranged in three tiers. That evening we had a very welcome bowl of hot barley soup. And our first night’s sleep since we left Wetzlar. And that’s that. The rest of it is really conditions in the camp.
DM: Were you reasonably well treated in the camp?
JG: Oh yes. Yeah. They had sort of given up on us really I think. The only thing is one didn’t mess about. If you didn’t, if you came outside your hut after curfew you could be shot. They wouldn’t worry about it. And while we were there I think at least one person was outside when he shouldn’t have been and was shot.
DM: Did you get news of how the war was going? Was there a sort of —
JG: Oh yes.
DM: A bush telegraph or —
JG: Yes. Yes. Well, there were some parts of the camp had radios of course. Secret radios. I don’t think we were ever issued anything by the authorities but we knew exactly what was going on. And eventually we got the news that we — of course Hitler was declared dead at the end of April. And the camp commandant on our side, he was the senior allied officer was a chap, an American fighter pilot and he he came on the communications system and said that the Germans were going to evacuate the camp. And he had said to them, ‘What will you do if we refuse to come?’ And they said, ‘We’ll leave you behind.’ And of course we knew that the Russians were getting very very close and the Germans were of course terrified of these murderous people who they, ahead of the regular organised army came up and just did what they liked. And their behaviour was dreadful. And the population was pretty well scared stiff of them. At the beginning of May, I’ve not, I haven’t got the date of it I think. Or have I? [pause] Yes.
[pause]
JG: Yes. We were following Hitler’s death. Then things were collapsed on the German side quite considerably. But before that, in the March we had, we had the RAF prisoners had a briefing in which we were told that plans were afoot for us to break out of camp. The whole of the camp would break out. The RAF would act as armed guard to the main body of prisoners going back west who would have been American. And as we were going, ‘How do we break out of this place then?’ ‘Arms will be dropped to you,’ we were told. This was the sort of rubbish that came from Whitehall. You know, that sort of thing. Absolute, well as I say complete rubbish. And we came out of the briefing and we were flabbergasted. And I was, walked out with a pilot from 4 Group who had been the pilot of a Halifax which was involved in a head on collision over Cologne. I can’t imagine anything much worse than that. Having a aircraft — and he was the only survivor. But the fun, or interesting thing it was the first occasion he was wearing a seat parachute. Up until then the pilots only had the ordinary pack which clipped on. Whereas, they had, at the end of the war, a bit late, at the end of the war they were issued with a seat pack so that if something happened and the aircraft came adrift [pause] Is it on? Then they would get away with it and it was the first occasion he’d worn it. And of course this was the first occasion he really needed it. You know. He said, well he thought it was rubbish and we were a bit taken aback and alarmed. Because if people were going to the extent of dropping arms to us they obviously wanted us to use them and we, having got that stage in our lives having survived we didn’t want to stick out our necks much longer. Particularly now. It’s obviously at the end of the war. Hitler is now dead and things are going to move quite fast. Anyway, we, we sat waiting for news of our evacuation and it was, nothing seemed to be happening until a group captain from our own side got through to the lines in Lubeck to allied headquarters to find out what was going on. Only to find of course nothing was going on. But as a result of that arrangements were made for the US Air Force, 8th Air Force, the B17s to come and pick us up and take us home. Adjoined, quite close to the camp was a Luftwaffe base which by now of course the Russians moving in it was now part of Russia as far as they were concerned. And no way were they going to allow any aircraft, allied aircraft in there until Eisenhower got behind it when he heard that we were not. He wasn’t going to have for a start any idea that we should break out and march west. It was the last thing he wanted. He’d got enough people rushing around the place. And he didn’t sort of want gash POWs. And so we were to stay where we were. And as a result of that RAF chap getting through to our lines and getting some action how much longer we would have been there goodness knows. And then [pause] now, I’ve got here at the end of the war, our time in the camp with the Germans. Now, having gone that Monday the 30th of April 1945 the Germans have been demolishing detector installations and equipment in the flak school which on this airfield. By the evening most of the items have left the camp and it looks as though we shall be left here in the care of the senior administrative office. Many heavy explosions in the flak school and on the aerodrome around. There was no count on today, parade tonight but the Jerry major appeared to be tired. At 9pm the somebody [pause] Well, anyway, 9pm we were told that from 8am tomorrow, that’s the 1st we would no longer be POWs as the commandant was officially handing over. We had an extra biscuit, butter and marmalade to celebrate. Tuesday the 1st of May — today the guard posts are occupied by Americans wearing MP armbands. That’s Military Police of course instead of the usual old goons which was our name for the German guards. A white flag flies over the camp. The rumours are thick and fast and everyone is wondering when we shall get away. The Russians are supposed to be pretty close. The latest is that they are two kilometres south of Barth. The bürgermeister of Barth is said to have shot himself. At 1pm we heard the BBC news and now at 14.20 we are listening to, “Variety Band Box.” Tonight at 22.15 approximately a Russian lieutenant and either a civilian or Russian soldier arrived. Cheers echoed throughout the compound. We’d been awaiting this for some time. Good Old Joe. The main Russian body captured Stralsund, which is on the coast, tonight, today. Listened to the BBC news. Public House time it to be extended on VE Day. I hope we’re home for it. At 22.30 it was announced that Hitler is dead. I hope it was one of Berlin, was in one of Berlin’s sewers. Perhaps these will capitulate now. Lights on until midnight by order of Colonel Zemke. He was the allied commander I was talking about. Special cup of hot milk at 23.15. More Russians expected tomorrow. Water shortage. On the Wednesday the 2nd the Russians said we were to march out and be packed in preparation to leave at 6pm. One Red Cross parcel issued to each man for the journey. We ate several meals in quick succession to get rid of our [pause] this is the one [pause] yes. We had to get rid of [pause] Red Cross parcel stocks. Share out the ones that we had left. Then we were told to be ready to march in the morning and a little later we heard that the march was not definite. Most of us left camp in the evening to have a look around. Some even got into Barth. Rumours are flying out, hope it’s true, British and Russians are supposed to have linked up in the north. Chaos reigned all day. Poor water situation. German armies in Italy and Austria surrendered to Alexander. Monty’s boys in Lubeck. Russian. Russians in Rostock. Berlin has fallen. Hamburg declared an open city. I’ve been told the airfield is becoming clear of mines. We may be flown out. Hope it’s true and that the kites —
[pause]
JG: I heard earlier today that we’re in contact with London, Washington and Moscow to see what they intended to do. Or for us to do. A colossal [pause] comparatively speaking, announced all day. The water situation a bit better. From midnight tonight we use Russian time. An hour in advance of our present time. Friday the 4th — airfield expected to be clear by 2pm. All Germans in northwest Germany, Holland, Denmark, Heligoland were ordered by Admiral Doenitz to surrender unconditionally. This is to take effect from 08.00 tomorrow Saturday the 5th of May 1945. Saturday the 5th of May — a Russian general inspected our barracks in the morning. In the afternoon Marshall Rokossovsky to some [pause] oh no, came to report with Colonel Zemke. A very tough looking bunch. One of the generals made a speech to some of us in Russian. An American colonel arrived by jeep from our lines and made final arrangements for our evacuation. Wish they would get a move on. Listened to a radio recording of the signing of the unconditional surrender by the German staff. The commentary was by Monty. The 6th. Sunday the 6th — still waiting. The colonel repeated his former broadcast saying things were being done for our evacuation. Monday the 7th — a lieutenant colonel of the 6th airborne Division came to Wismar today to reassure us and we needed some reassuring too that we could expect to be flown out within the next few days. He could not say which day it would be but would definitely be only a matter of a few days. Question — how long or short is a few days? Apparently, we shall be flown back to England. Good deal. Other POWs are still being flown back by Lancs. [pause] Daks and Commandos are being used. Twenty five in a Dak, forty in a Commando. Most POWs have to be helped into aircraft. They were given a shock here. We shall run like stink when the kites come. I’ve heard that tomorrow is VE day and the following day a holiday. I’m bloody annoyed that we’re not going to, we’re going to miss the celebrations and so is everyone else. Saturday, Sunday the 6th of May — saw a Russian concert this afternoon and it was very good. No one or very few understood a word but what the hell. Monday the 7th of May — at the moment, 21.50 Russian time someone, I think it’s Alfredo Campoli, is playing a composition on the violin which I heard once at one of the St John’s socials. St John’s being the Parish church in Sidcup where I come from. It has just been announced that the BBC have broadcast a message to the effect that Stalag Luft 1, Barth, Pomerania has been liberated and the next of kin are being informed. Goebbels, his wife and daughters took poison apparently. War ends after five years and eight months. Unconditional surrender made at 2.41 French time today to Field Marshall Montgomery. Location Reims. Or Reims. Tuesday the 8th of May — I’ve just heard the prime minister’s speech declaring that the European war is at an end. The ceasefire officially takes place at 00.01 tomorrow. Wednesday, May 9th but fighting, except for some of the Resistance in Czechoslovakia ceased on Thursday morning. It is VE day and this morning I spent some time sun bathing on the peninsula north of the camp. I hope soon to be doing the same in England very soon. Listened to the King’s Speech. I guess the family were listening too. Do they know where I am? I wonder. And did they hear the announcement on the radio last night to the effect that we had been liberated by the Red Army. Lancs landed in Germany for the first time and flew back with four thousand five hundred POWs. Come on boys. Let’s get out of here. Wednesday the 9th of May— sunbathing again today. Allied parade this morning. A Russian officer made a speech to us. Same old story. Be patient for a few more days. Plenty of rumours floating around [pause] At 08.00 hours on BBC radio all men at Stalag Luft 1, Barth, near Stralsund, Pomerania, Germany are to remain in the camp and not make for the allied lines. Well, I don’t know whether anyone did. Thursday, the 10th of May — on KP again today. You know, that’s cleaning up the camp. Ten thousand more POWs flown out by five hundred BC aircraft and we’re still here. Colonel Zemke made an appalling speech again tonight. He’s going to get out all souvenirs. The rumour is that all British personnel are going to be taken by transport to Wismar and flown home from there. Also, that we should have been there yesterday. Group Captain Weir is said to have gone to try and get us out. He may have split with Colonel Zemke. I hope so as Zemke hasn’t a bloody clue. Listened to ITMA. Last time I heard it was on Wednesday the 6th December. I was changing in my room for the op and could hear it on someone else’s radio. That was of course the day on which I went down in Germany. Friday the 11th — sunbathed again today. There’s a meeting of the wheels, you know they were the top men, tonight. Final arrangements for our evacuation are said to be the subject of discussion. Group Captain Weir seems to have been arranging with the Russian commander of the area, Colonel General Batov for aircraft to land here to take us out. Colonel Zemke has just announced that aircraft expected here tomorrow or on Sunday. Russian passports are being signed up in preparation. It really looks as if we are going to move soon. Squadron Leader Evans had to fill in forms of interrogation which he signed. This gives us clearance, a clearance chit to be presented on arrival in England which should hasten our departure from the Receiving Centre. A cabinet order said that all POWs are to be with their families within twenty four hours of arriving in England. Length of leave is uncertain. Nearly eighty thousand POWs have been returned to England so far. There can’t be many more. Eisenhower has just repeated his, ‘stay put’ message. The 12th, Saturday the 12th — Group Captain Green on parade this morning said evacuation was to begin this afternoon. Sick quarters are first on the list. Then come the British personnel in the following order and its by blocks eight, nine, ten, eleven etcetera. So we were in a good position. What’s the betting I click for a cleaning job which would mean a delayed departure. At 2pm the first US aircraft arrived at Barth aerodrome. Two Daks for hospital cases and the rest Fortresses. Joe here is in charge, that’s me, in charge of operation [unclear] so I shan’t get away until tomorrow. The rest of the boys in the room buzzed at 3pm. Six lads and I stayed from 3pm until 9pm cleaning up. What a bloody awful job. Managed to get a shower at the end of it. Packed for the morning, nearly losing my fags as the Yanks still in the compound were on the prowl and almost swiped them. Saturday the 13th of May — paraded at 6.30am and after roll call we marched out to the airfield. At 7.30am the first Forts arrived. We were then split into groups of twenty five and as each Fort came around the perimeter track we embarked. That was Sunday the 13th. We were airborne at 8.30am and flew fairly low direct to England having a very good look at Bremen and Hamburg enroute. As we were using Russian time we had to put our watches back one hour to correspond with double British summertime. PBST. We landed at Ford in Sussex at 11.30. This completed the trip I set out on on December the 6th last. It took a bloody long time for my liking. Too long. I have recalled the following dream I had some time during my incarceration. Obviously, it was prompted by my fear that my family didn’t know my fate in the dream. I returned home to reassure the family that I was safe, in reasonable shape and in a POW camp. Having told the family this I prepared to leave, much to their puzzlement. ‘Why,’ they asked, ‘Did you, now home do you propose to leave?’ ‘Because I’m still a POW and my place is in that German POW camp,’ [laughs] I replied. And that took me to the end of the war.
DM: So, that was the diary you kept.
JG: Yes.
DM: When you were in the camp. Yes.
JG: That’s right. And that I didn’t much do much until the last days. Little point really.
DM: So, you obviously then had leave after you got home.
JG: That’s right.
DM: Repatriation leave.
JG: Yes.
DM: When did you actually leave the air force the first time?
[pause]
JG: I don’t [pause] I’m not sure that I’ve got it.
DM: It doesn’t matter precisely.
JG: Yes. It was —
DM: It was in 1945 was it?
JG: Yes.
DM: That you left.
JG: That’s right. Yes. What happened was that after the end of leave, which was extensive I did an air traffic controller course and I ended my days in the RAF as an air traffic controller at Henlow in Bedfordshire. And it must have been September I think. I’m trying to think when I got it [pause] Righto. Thank you.
DM: When you left the air force —
JG: Yes.
DM: What did you do in Civvy Street?
JG: I had a number of jobs. The last one was an, with an insurance company called Friends Provident. They’re still around. Quite a minor one I think. But I had, the first job I had was [pause] air freight. It was a company that dealt with arranging air freight in and out of the country. We were based in Victoria. It was a fiercely boring thing. And —
Other: You didn’t go back to Brown Shipley did you?
JG: No. I often wonder what would have happened had I because Brown Shipley’s still around.
DM: What prompted you to join up again in 1949?
JG: The fact that I was bored stiff and really and I was by now living in what we used to call digs in Reading and coming home to Sidcup at the weekends. And I didn’t really enjoy it much. And so it was when this announcement was made I thought, ‘Oh I can’t do worse than this.’ And if I’m going to go back on my terms because what I want now I want to settle down. If possible to get a house. I want to make some solid progress and get employment which I can guarantee until normal retirement age because I’ve not got much in the way of money. Certainly the RAF would provide the income that I was looking for and if I can get in with my flight lieutenant rank. And also, I actually had the nerve to talk about a permanent commission. And to my amazement that’s what happened. And I’ll never know whether the chap who was by now Air Marshall Sir John Whitley who had been the station commander at, at St Eval in 1942 when I was there and whom I was interviewed by him on the way to getting a commission and I wrote and reminded him of that. Whether it had any affect I just don’t know. I’d like to think it did and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he hadn’t sort of put a recommendation in on my behalf. Anyway, that’s in I went. And 31st of May 1949 and I — my first Squadron. I went having done a number of courses to 1949. Refresher navigation courses. I then went to a course where I went as a navigator to a pilot whose name was Wing Commander Oxley and this was a organised — I’m not sure what exactly it was called but it was at [pause] now —
[pause]
JG: I have to turn this off again. I’m very sorry.
[recording paused]
JG: Obviously then, this refresher training thing I was posted.
[pause – doorbell rings]
JG: To RAF Swinderby at an Advanced Flying School and where we flew Wellingtons and I flew with the pilot Wing Commander Oxley between September and November. In late December of ’49 I was posted to Number 236 Operational Conversion Unit at RAF Kinloss, Scotland flying Lancasters. Until April the 5th of April when I was posted to 38 Squadron Luqa, Malta flying Lancasters on maritime operations.
[pause]
JG: Apart from maritime operations which included various Naval and air force. Naval and air operations, training operations and also on air sea rescue duties.
[pause]
JG: At the beginning of 1953 where I was then posted to Number 1 Maritime Reconnaissance School. And that was at St Mawgan in Cornwall. And during my time there I found myself recruited to take part in the Queen’s coronation and I, for the spell which included the coronation I went up to Henlow. And we were trained in basically marching long distances. And I took part in the actual Review on the 2nd of June 1953. And then subsequently in the July I took part in the Queen’s RAF Review of the — at [pause] well I think it was the RAF Review. The Queen’s Review of the RAF took place at Odiham in Hampshire. And that was [pause] I haven’t got the actual date. Later in 1954 I was posted to headquarters, 64 Group Home Command at Rufforth, York as PA to the AOC. Non-flying apart from accompanying the air commodore and visits. From ’56, September ’56 to the 23rd of January I attended a Bomber Command Bombing School, Lindholme. Navigation training for the V force. In summer that year I was posted instead to Air Ministry, London Air Intelligence Branch. And in October 1960 I was posted as assistant air attaché, British Embassy, Paris. I retired from the RAF in May 1962 and in September I joined Shellmex and BP Limited soon to become separate companies. I stayed with Shell until retiring in June 1982. And that’s really leaves me coming out.
DM: The, near the beginning you were saying that because you were a POW.
JG: Yes.
DM: You didn’t have your hands on your logbook.
JG: That’s right.
DM: And you didn’t get it back. And that was one of the ones that was ultimately destroyed I assume.
JG: Yes. As far as I know if you want to record it.
DM: It’s going. Yeah.
JG: When I came back I made enquiries and I discovered that in October or November 1960 [pause] Either ’59 or ’60. When did I go? [pause] Yes. It would be October 1960. A decree had gone out earlier that year, no in that month, it was certainly while I was in Paris the Air Ministry issued a decree to say that the, there were a lot of logbooks unclaimed and unless you claimed the thing by whatever date it was, I don’t know, they would be destroyed. And so by the time I came back and I didn’t know that, I didn’t get that news while I was in Paris and I can’t, and I’m surprised they didn’t think to tell people all over the place. Or else I just missed it. But anyway the fact is then any enquiries I made just drew a blank. So, there’s no point really. It isn’t, doesn’t exist anywhere unless someone thought oh I’ll have this. But why they would do that I don’t know.
DM: No.
JG: I can’t imagine it’s of any interest to anybody but me. But it’s been a nuisance really because [pause] well just all I’ve got, I’ve got it here but the as soon as I rejoined of course I got another logbook and that’s the one I’ve got. But it doesn’t help looking back at things that happened during the war.
DM: No.
JG: The only one of interest that, it was an event which occurred while I was on 78 Squadron at Linton on Ouse and it’s documented actually in Bomber Command records. It — we took off from Linton on the 11th of December 1942 heading for Italy. So, we were virtually a flying petrol tank with one or two little bombs. Anyway, we took off and immediately one of the engines caught fire and the situation was such that we had to get out of it. Out of the aircraft. Fortunately, Linton is not all that distance from the North Sea, although it is the other side of Yorkshire. And so what we proposed to do, the initial plan was to drop our bombs in the sea or where they could be safely dropped and come back and land. But the situation was getting rapidly out of hand and so it was a question of dropping the bombs first thing and then, if possible to have a crash landing somewhere. However, and as I was a bomb aimer down in the front I had to get rid of the hatch so that we were going to drop out of it. That’s the way we were going to go. But I soon had to tell the pilot, ‘We’re going to be far too low to bale out.’ So, he said, ‘Well, I’ll see if I can crash land somewhere.’ But by this time it was getting worse than that. He said, ‘I don’t know. I think I can reach the sea.’ And that’s what we did. We ditched in the North Sea. Just a few miles out, three miles out from Filey and we all got away with it. There was no, had we stayed much longer of course we could very well have burned up. But we did, we got down in the water and we got picked up. Interestingly enough we were picked up by fishermen who had just landed in Filey and had looked back to see this aircraft going into the sea and turned their boats around and came out to pick us up. And, but some of those poor chaps got some stick because what they should have done because some of them were lifeboatmen they should, they should have gone, and gone out with the lifeboat. So they weren’t very popular when the lifeboat did come out and found out some of their men were actually there having done the job for them virtually. Because we didn’t need any help other than something to take us back to land. Now, I was recently, a few years ago now I was contacted by someone by the name of Paul Bright who had written or was writing actually, he hadn’t finished it — a book called, “Aircraft Activity Over the East Riding of Yorkshire,” which included not only RAF but Luftwaffe things. How he got it I don’t know. Anyway, he had got the records of 78 Squadron and this ditching thing and he [pause] he got in touch with me via the chap who wrote 640 Squadron history and as a result of that I was, gave this chap Paul Bright all the information and he’s included it in his book. There’s the thing, “On a Wing and a Prayer,” about what happened from my time in 78. And I’ve been in touch with him. We’ve been, both T and I have met a number of times when we’ve gone up that way and also because the — we’ve been going up there to the Memorial of 640 and at the same time met Paul Bright. But I don’t know what’s happened. A book which I’ve got a copy of I think. A member of the family must have it but it’s, it’s a most extraordinary detailed book of what happened in the air over the East Riding during the war. And including what’s happened to various air crew including German air crew.
[pause]
JG: And I’m in touch with him every time something significant comes up. Like today for example. I told him about the organisation that was going ahead on behalf of Bomber Command in that area. And I don’t know whether he has been in touch but of all the information I’ve had of course is via Carol and her visits up there.
DM: Ok.
JG: Right.
DM: In September 1944 whilst engaged on an attack on a synthetic oil plant the aircraft in which Flight Lieutenant Goldby was flying was severely damaged by heavy anti-aircraft fire. One engine was hit and rendered useless. Three petrol tanks were holed and a shell fragment entering the bomb aimer’s compartment damaged his equipment. Despite intense physical discomfort and shock Flight Lieutenant Goldby continued calmly to direct his captain onto the target. This determination and skill resulted in a successful attack. This officer has participated in many operations over enemy territory and among his targets have been such heavily defended areas as Essen and Duisberg. He is now engaged on his second tour of operations and in his capacity as bombing leader has been a source of inspiration to his section and has materially contributed to the high standard of efficiency attained. And therefore, the DFC was awarded.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Louis Goldby
Creator
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David Meanwell
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-25
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoldbyJL171025, PGoldbyJL1701
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Pending review
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Format
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01:30:05 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
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John Goldby was born in Kent but the family moved to London the year after. He was inspired to join the RAF when a schoolfriend joined and became a Spitfire pilot. John believes that it was a mid-air collision with a night fighter that led to his crash. He became a Prisoner of War at Stalag Luft 1. He kept a detailed diary of events leading to his eventual liberation and return to the UK. After demob he was soon bored with Civvy Street and returned to the RAF. He had an interesting post-war career including time as air attaché to the British Embassy in Paris.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Barth
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
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1941-05
1942-05
1944
1945-01-20
1945-04-30
1945-05-05
640 Squadron
78 Squadron
aircrew
Blenheim
bomb aimer
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
Distinguished Flying Cross
ditching
Dulag Luft
Halifax
Hampden
Lancaster
mid-air collision
observer
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Riccall
RAF St Eval
RAF Stanton Harcourt
Stalag Luft 1
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/864/11106/PHaytonK1701.1.jpg
ef6b69d8536b3e5ebdb6b4231318428f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/864/11106/AHaytonK171004.2.mp3
2342cec6176bee1aa281e272dd002da5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hayton, Ken
K Hayton
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken Hayton about his father George Stanley 'Stan' Hayton (1912 - 1971). He served as a fitter at RAF Woodhall Spa and RAF Riccall.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hayton, K
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JS: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Joyce Sharland. The interviewee is Ken Hayton. The interview is taking place at Mr Hayton’s home in Andover on the 17th of October 2017.
KH: Yes.
JS: Right. So, Mr Hayton, can you tell me about your father?
KH: My father was George Stanley Hayton. Always known as Stan. And before the war he was employed by Lloyds Bank. He was born in Durham City in two thousand and err now then let me get this right [pause] in 1912, and lived in the city all his life until his death in 1971. In, around about the early time, early days of 1940 he was given permission by the bank to join the Royal Air Force as a volunteer. Which he did. And I know that he did join as a volunteer because initially his uniform had the letters VR under the albatross on his shoulder flashes. It would be 1940 that he joined up because I have recollections as a small boy of going to Durham Station to see him off. I believe his initial training took place at RAF Padgate. And then after that was completed he went on to his trade training as a fitter armourer which I think took place at Lytham St Anne’s. I’m not sure about that but I think that’s where he went. Once that was completed he was posted to Bomber Command into 97 Squadron which was based at RAF Woodhall Spa in Lincolnshire. A satellite unit to RAF Coningsby. And he remained there right throughout the war or almost to the end of the war. And towards the end of the war he was posted to RAF Riccall in Yorkshire where he was involved in preparing all the redundant 303 Browning aircraft guns for storage in case they were ever needed to be called back into service. He was demobbed from RAF Waddington in around about the latter part of 1945. I do believe that he was offered a commission if he was prepared to stay in the Royal Air Force but his duty he felt was to the bank who had released him early. So he then was demobbed and joined Lloyds bank where he remained employed until he retired after having served forty years. During his service at Woodhall Spa he was involved in bombing up Lancasters for raids over the occupied territories and when 617 Squadron was due to take, take-off for the Dams raid 97 Squadron was moved back to the parent unit at Coningsby and 617 Squadron came in to Woodhall Spa. I can only think that that was done from a security point of view because it would be much easier to maintain security on a single Squadron station like Woodhall, rather than on the main base of 617 Squadron which was of course RAF Scampton. My father was involved in the bombing up of 617 Squadron for the Dams raid. And I only learned about this when after the war and the production of the film, “The Dambusters,” my father and I went to see it at the cinema in Durham. And on the way home we were discussing various things in the film and it came out that my dad had been involved with 617 Squadron. And when I asked him about the parts of the film which showed the aftermath of the raid on the countryside I said I wondered if that was anything like what had actually had happened and whether the filmers had got it anything accurate. And he said, ‘Yes. It was just like that.’ And immediately after that he said, ‘But don’t tell your mother I said that.’ I can only think that that comment was made because he had been taken over the Dams in one of the Mosquito reconnaissance aircraft which did the photo reconnaissance after the Dams raid. I’ve no proof of that but I can’t see any other reason for the comment which he made except that he was there. He had been very much involved in the bombing up of the aircraft and this I think was why he wanted to go and see the film because neither he nor I were great film goers. When he was at Woodhall there was an incident at a bomb dump near Snaith which is not too far away from Coningsby and Woodhall when a Lancaster came down on the edge of the bomb dump and my dad was involved in the clearing up operations. And I think that had an effect on him because we never ever had chops as a meat meal and he could never stand the smell of lamb being cooked. No other reason that I can think of for that reaction other than the involvement that he’d had in clearing up what obviously must have been carnage with the Lancaster coming down on the, on the edge of the bomb dump. At one time during the war my mother and my sister and myself went down to Woodhall Spa because my dad couldn’t get any leave. It was during a high pressure time I think of bombing raids and he wanted a pushbike. And being the elder of the two children I was given the responsibility of looking after the bike. I can remember feeling quite proud that I’d been given the responsibility of taking care of this bike all the way down from Durham to Woodhall Spa. During that journey we passed through York Station not long after it had been blitzed by the Luftwaffe and it really was in a very bad state on one side of the station. Of course the Luftwaffe went for York because it was a main railway junction during the war and if they could have disrupted the railways it would have had a marked effect on our war effort. The other effect I think that I learned about with on the family was when my father came home on the odd occasion that he could get home on leave he always changed out of uniform into civvies before he saw my sister because my sister was younger than I was and she thought that the RAF was a sort of box that my father was locked up in and the uniform always brought that home to her. But we can only think that that was one of the reasons that dad always got changed as soon as he came home. There was not a lot of other effect on us as a family except that once my father had joined up we moved out of the council house and went to live with my maternal grandparents in the city which overlooked the river and the Cathedral. And just thinking about that period in the early days of the war Durham City is what might be regarded at the centre of a hub of a wheel with the perimeter being on the three main rivers. The Tyne, the Wear and the Tees with the shipyards in Newcastle, Sunderland and Middlesbrough. And at the beginning of the war we used to get all the air raid warnings if enemy aircraft were coming in for any of those three places. But we never had anything over the city. And eventually we stopped getting air raid warnings unless the aircraft were heading inland. So we were very, very fortunate. Not so my wife who was a Sunderland girl and she lived through the various Blitzes in Sunderland and it had obviously an effect on her as a young girl. Much more so. And I didn’t realise until after we were married and we were talking about things that had happened during the war how fortunate we had been as a family because my maternal grandfather was a great gardener and had allotments which provided vegetables. And we also had an orchard at the back of the, at the back of the house so that we always had fruit. And he kept chickens in the orchard so we always had meat. And it made me realise, talking to my wife just how lucky we had been having all those facilities when I heard of the sort of things that she had had to put up with in Sunderland. So, you know there were many things that happened during the war which folks don’t realise. I mean that was only a distance of twelve miles between Durham City and Sunderland and yet such a difference in the effect on families that lived in, in those two places. My maternal grandfather had been a forge smith in Yorkshire and at the beginning of the First World War he was sent up to Durham to work in the forge there. And they sent him away from Yorkshire because the recruiting officers were fed up with him trying to join the forces and told him he was much more valuable making the armaments for the forces rather than him going out into Europe. So that was how the family from Yorkshire came to be based in Durham city and how my parents met. Because my paternal grandfather was trained as a pharmaceutical chemist and during the First World War he was stationed in Mesopotamia. I think as part of the Northumberland Fusiliers. But I’m not certain about that. He eventually moved into the motor trade and that was how I knew him all my life. The effect, I think on my mother wasn’t anything that I ever knew about or thought about. She had started training as a teacher before the war and of course like all women had to do something and once my sister got to school age she went back to teaching. So as a family we were still a fairly compact unit. Whilst we were living with my grandparents as I say we were in a house that overlooked the river and the Cathedral. And there has been for many many years the knowledge that if ever the Durham Cathedral were to come under attack for any reason whatsoever St Cuthbert who the Cathedral is dedicated to and who is buried in the Cathedral would save it. And of course Von Ribbentrop was determined to obliterate all the main Cathedrals in the United Kingdom if he could. And shortly after the raid which destroyed Coventry Cathedral we had an air raid warning in Durham and that was as I say by this time quite unusual. So we were due to go down into the cellar of the house which was our air raid shelter but looking out of the window there was the mist rising off the river. And of course the river is an ox bow around the central peninsula of the city on which stands the Cathedral and the castle. So this mist rose off the river and it’s always been said that that was St Cuthbert’s way of protecting the Cathedral. And certainly that mist blanketed the whole of the city and we could hear the German aircraft over the top of the city. It was definitely German aircraft because their engines weren’t synchronised like the English or British aircraft engines were. And they were over the, overhead going around and around. Nothing happened and eventually they flew off. The all clear went. And as the all clear went the mist descended back to the river. And I can vouch for that because as a youngster I saw it out of the windows of our house. My grandparent’s house. And it’s made a lasting impression as you can probably gather. I really don’t know that there’s much else that I can say apart from the fact that my own Royal Air Force service which was three years as a regular and two and a half years on the reserve and during that time the one thing that I was very proud to wear was my father’s cap badge. Sadly, I no longer have that. I have my own cap badge but I think my father’s cap badge must have gone back with my uniform when I had to return it to RAF Fenton which was my call up base when my two and a half years reserve service was ended. The only other thing of my father’s which I have apart from his ‘39 ‘45 Star and Defence Medal is a piece of metalwork which I know was part of one of his trade tests in which I think was part of the bomb release mechanism for a Lancaster. I can’t be sure about that but the trade test would be taken after he’d started working on Lancasters so I think it’s a fair assumption that that’s probably what it is. I don’t know that there’s much else that I can say.
JS: You said you recall going to the station to see your father off.
KH: Yeah.
JS: How old were you then?
KH: I’d be about seven.
JS: About seven. And you went with your mother and your sister?
KH: I don’t think my sister went. My sister would only be about three. Three and a half and so I don’t think she went. She would probably stay with my grandparents. But I, I can certainly recall going to the, going to the station in Durham and seeing, seeing dad off on the train. Little bits of things like that they do stick in your memory and you know it’s a bit like the [pause] the memories of the 9 o’clock news during the war. Alright, as a youngster you don’t appreciate everything that is being said but the things that stick in my mind are Big Ben, and my grandparents sitting in the lounge and everybody being quiet and listening to the news. It was a nightly ritual and you know its little things like that which, you know I think need to be kept in mind. And I think future generations need to know how important it was to us at home to know what was going on. And the only way we could get recent, decent reliable news was the BBC. And you know it was important to everyone I think and I’m quite certain that my family weren’t any different from countless other families throughout the country. At 9 o’clock every night the wireless was turned on and we had the news. There wasn’t all the current news from the battlefield and all the rest of it and I think it’s perhaps just as well. I think we get too much of this instantaneous news now and it doesn’t give people time to digest really what’s happening. Yeah. Instant gratification in a different form. Perhaps I’m being old fashioned.
JS: Did, as far as you’re aware did your mother ever receive letters from your father. Was he able? Could he write letters? Could he communicate? Make phone calls perhaps. Do you ever recall him making contact when he was away?
KH: I don’t recall any phone calls. I don’t think, in fact I don’t think we had a phone in the house so that wouldn’t have been possible. Letters I think possibly he did get able, he was able to send. I mean as he was based in this country I don’t think there was any problem in that respect. But it didn’t sort of register on me as a, as a youngster. I mean that’s not something that I would have been aware of I don’t think. The only things that I was aware of were, you know the pleasure of having him come home on leave on the occasions when he could get home. And as I say the occasion when we went down to Woodhall Spa and it would be during my school summer holidays. And the one, the one thing apart from the pushbike being my responsibility the one thing that I can remember of that little holiday from our point of view was seeing a Lancaster loop the loop. Which was totally out of order. And I believe talking to my father afterwards that that particular exercise had such a damaging affect on the airframe of the aircraft that it was written off and I believe the pilot was severely disciplined because obviously you don’t write off expensive aircraft. But it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t have happened but I can remember seeing it and was quite surprised. It was just one of those little things that come back to mind as you, as you think about what, what happened. And another thing that has just come back to my mind thinking about that was at the beginning of the war just after my father had joined up and before we moved in with my grandparents I can remember being taken into the shelter in the garden when there was an air raid warning and looking up into the night sky and seeing searchlights over towards Sunderland and seeing what was obviously an aerial dogfight because you could even at a distance of twelve miles you could see the tracer. And that, that’s something which has just come back to me since talking about seeing the Lancaster. We shouldn’t have been out of the shelter but, you know youngsters do things that they shouldn’t do even, even in wartime. Yeah.
JS: So, did life for you as a young lad, did it more or less go on as normal? You were going to school. You were helping around the house presumably, were you? Were any of your friends lives touched in a bad way by the war? Did any of them lose close relatives.
KH: No. Not that I can say. I mean, as youngsters we didn’t sort of discuss the, we didn’t discuss the war. It was something that was going on and we had the black out and there was no possibility of after school work or sports clubs or anything like that. They were all off limits. When school was over you went. You went home and you stayed at home. You couldn’t go and play out. Which we could once the war was over. But we didn’t [pause] I can’t recall sort of discussing or talking about the war as a youngster at school. Not even when I got to Grammar School just towards the end of the war. The only thing that was noticeable when I got to Grammar School was the fact that there were quite a number of older teachers there who had obviously stayed on beyond retirement because the young teachers had gone into the forces. And I was made well aware of that because both my, my uncle and my father had gone to the same Grammar School and some of the teachers that taught them taught me. Which was sometimes a little embarrassing because on occasions, I can remember one particular occasion in the physics laboratory when I’d been assisting in dealing with some electrical experiment which had a series of plug keys connecting wires up and one thing and another. And that master was one of the masters who had taught my father. And in operating one of these plug keys I’d managed to disconnect some of the, some of the wires. And the master just looked at me and just sort of tut tutted and said, ‘Your father would never have done that.’ Which you know, it was a little embarrassing at the time but you get on with it. But it was only things like that I think which made you realise that the war had had an effect. Then of course towards the end of my Grammar School career a number of the teachers who had been away on war service were coming back and the older ones took well-earned retirement. Not something which you would tend to think about until later on when you look back and you think, oh I wonder why that happened? And then as you get older yourself you realise why these things happened. It’s not, not something that you think about a lot but when you do think about it, it all comes back. Yeah.
JS: Do you have any recollection of the atmosphere on the day the war ended and the immediate aftermath of the war ending? Can you remember, were there were celebrations in your street? Can you remember your family saying anything or general air at school of relief?
KH: Not really. Again, it was something that yes there were celebrations in the city quite clearly. But as a youngster, bearing in mind what, I’d be only ten or eleven when the war ended. It wasn’t the sort of thing that you got involved in very much. It was, you weren’t old enough in those days. A ten year old or an eleven year old was still regarded as a child. Unlike nowadays where they tend to be treated as semi-adults. But so, yes there were celebrations and yes a sense of great relief and the hopes that everybody would come home safe. Which, you know was important but not something which as a youngster really impacted on you. I think obviously it would impact on my mother and my grandparents on both sides because not only was my father in, in the Royal Air Force but one of his younger, his youngest sister was also in in the WAAF. So that you know the family I think were a case of well, great relief when they both came home safe and sound. So yes there was a sense of relief and, but as a youngster it perhaps doesn’t penetrate the consciousness in quite the same way as it does as you’re older. But as a family my, we had sort of my paternal grandfather as I say was in Mesopotamia in the First World War. My uncle, my mother’s older brother had been in the Durham Light Infantry between the wars and strangely enough very much like his father he couldn’t go back in to the Army at the beginning of the Second World War because he’d become an employee of the Ministry of Agriculture which was a Reserved Occupation and although the Durham Light Infantry wanted him back he couldn’t go back. So he took it on himself to get involved with the Army Cadet Corps and he ran the Army Cadet Corps in the city for a number of years. Even after the war. Until I think he got to an age where he was voluntarily retired. But it was something which again we, we just took on board. It was part of parcel of, of what we were doing. In much the same way as my grandfather because he had allotments and whatnot could supply friends and family with, with fresh, fresh veg and so on. And also, I think, I know we used to sell apples from the door and presumably what was raised from those went to, went to charities or went to support the, probably went to support the Army Cadet Force I would think because my uncle was so involved in it. These are odd little things which you think about if, you know if you sit down and put your thinking cap on.
JS: And you said after your father was demobbed he came home in his demob suit.
KH: Oh. Yes. Of course all Service personnel got a demob suit. And the one thing that I do remember was that it was a brown suit which was most odd because going back into the bank I don’t think he would wear a brown suit in the bank. Not in those days. Banking was very much more formal than it is now. In fact, I think if my father was still alive and was still involved in banking he’d be horrified at some of the things that happen. One of those things. But yeah. The, the demob set up is a little bit different then I think from when I came out. I mean I had to sign the Official Secrets Act of course when I, when I signed on, and again I had to sign it again at the time I was demobbed. But I spent my three years at RAF Innsworth as part of the Record Office where I was working in the Stats Section until I was seconded to the Home Command Coronation Unit which in fact happened to be based at Innsworth. And we did all our training on one of the local airfields which I believe is now a civil airfield which was RAF Staverton at that time. And we eventually, having completed our training ended up in Kensington Gardens under canvas for the actual Coronation. And of course Coronation Day was a dreadful day weather wise but we were fortunate. Our section of the route lining force were in the Haymarket. And the Haymarket in London in those days was two way traffic and it had islands down the centre. And I was on the edge of the road in the middle of one of these islands and the royal coach came past my side of the island and the outriders that are normally alongside the coach during the procession because of the narrowness of the road had to go in front and behind. And as the coach passed me Phillip must have said something to Her Majesty and she turned to speak to him and I have a photographic memory of seeing her turn towards Phillip. So I had a full face view of the Queen on the day of her Coronation. Granted, around the barrel of a 303 but still something that one never forgets. And that, that night or that afternoon after we’d got back to Kensington Gardens I think it must be the only time that the Royal Air Force had issued the men with a rum ration. It had been such a dreadful day that we were all taken to the mess tent and dished out with a tot of rum. And that evening three of us went off into, into London because up ‘til that point we hadn’t been allowed out of Kensington gardens. But we went to look at the fireworks and we went down to Buckingham palace to see the royal family and their guests going off to the ball at Hampton court. And because we’d been trained in crowd control as part of our Coronation training we were able to link up with the police to control the crowds outside Buckingham Palace that night. And again something which I didn’t discover until I was married and talking to my wife about the Coronation in London and had discovered that she had been in London with her uncle and aunt and they had been at Buckingham palace on that night. Although obviously neither of us knew the other but we were both there at the same time. Strange coincidence. But we, after we’d seen some of the fireworks on the Embankment we were looking for a drink and all the pubs of course were packed out to the doors as you could imagine. And eventually we looked through the doors of one pub and somebody seeing three RAF uniforms it was like a tidal wave. The crowd opened up to the bar and we were given straight access to the bar and I don’t think we bought a drink for ourselves the rest of that night. One of those things where you know men in uniform in those days were regarded with consideration and there wasn’t any of the problems that sadly we have now where men are told not to wear uniform when they go into towns and so on. Which is, I think very, very sad because the armed forces now and then do a remarkable job in protecting what we have in a democratic country. And it’s sad that men in uniform have got to be told to, not to go in to towns in their, in their uniforms. Although I’ve got to see we do see some uniforms in Andover which we still, it’s not the garrison town that it once was but there are still quite a lot of Service personnel around and we do see some of them in town and nobody ever I’ve never come across anybody making any adverse comment on what I’ve seen in Andover. But I know it does happen in some places. Sad. Very sad.
JS: I expect your parents were hugely proud of you serving in the RAF. Did you ever speak to your father about your time there?
KH: Not, not specifically because the only thing was talking about the Coronation obviously because that was, that was something which you know happens once in a generation. But most of, most of the work that I was doing wasn’t something that you would, you would talk about. Alright you know I mentioned the Official Secrets Act and I was based in a section which dealt with personnel for all the RAF stations throughout the world by command. So you just didn’t talk about it because, well in those days there were so many different commands and obviously a lot more RAF bases throughout the world than there are now that it would have been impossible anyway to keep in mind what happened in any particular RAF camp in the Middle East, or the Far East or in Europe or wherever. But it, it would never have occurred to me to have discussed anything to do with that. It was something which wasn’t to be discussed even, even with my father. Yes. We’d talk about inconsequential things like guard duty and having, you know things like hearing the experiments with the after burners for jet engines which took place at a company called Rotol which was just up the road from RAF Innsworth. And also seeing some of the test flights of the, the RAF Javelin. The Gloster Javelin which was in its test flights was always supported by a Meteor. And seeing those two aircraft together made you realise how big the Javelin was. Because of course it was being built at Gloucester, in the factory on the outskirts of Gloucester which was not far from where the Record Office Unit was. So things like that. Yes. You could remember and you would talk about it. I would talk about with my father, you know because he’d obviously been involved with Lancasters and Manchesters, and I think it gave him a taste for flying because when he came out of the Royal Air Force he joined the Newcastle Aero Club and got his private pilot’s licence which, so that he flew Tiger Moths and Austers. And both my wife and I flew with him in the Tiger Moth. I can remember going to the Aero Club on one of their at home days when there had been all sorts of demonstrations and one thing and another and my dad had said to my wife, ‘Come on. I’ll take you up.’ And they went. They went up and flew out over, over the border country. Over North Northumberland and so on and it was, it was a very nice night.
SH: Very cold.
KH: And it was, yes. As my wife just said, very cold. And it must have been quite light up there but it was getting quite dark on the ground and I can remember the flight engineer who was a very, very good pilot himself standing on the grass outside, outside the hangars striking matches as my dad came down. That was, that was quite amusing. Yeah. So we maintained a contact with flying although I never had the opportunity or the time to get a pilot’s licence myself. But I do remember flying with my dad on several occasions when I was at home from university. Yeah. Yeah. Strange. Strange how things have a knock on effect because although my father’s uncle was one of the early members of the Newcastle Aero Club I don’t think there had been any thought of my dad getting involved until he came out of the Royal Air Force. One of those things. But yeah.
JS: You say you kept up that connection with flying. Did he keep up any connections in terms of any Associations? Did he meet up with people he’d served with? They were quite a fluid bunch as I imagine in various parts of the country.
KH: You see, I think there was only one person that he ever sort of had contact with after he came out of the forces. See the Royal Air Force is rather different from the Army, for example where in the Army you move as a regiment or as a section of a regiment. So that you have that connection with a bunch of chaps or girls who are together as a unit. In the Royal Air Force there’s a subtle difference between the aircrew and the ground crew. The aircrew will move with the Squadron. The ground crew tend to move as individuals between units because they, they are posted. And I know this from my RAF experience myself in the Record Office. They are posted as individuals to, to a unit. To an RAF station. They’re not posted to a Squadron like they were during the war. But even during the war as exemplified by the fact that although my dad was posted to 97 Squadron and was based at Woodhall Spa when 97 Squadron moved out it was only the 97 Squadron aircraft and aircrew that moved out. The ground crew remained there. And that’s how my father came to serve with 617. Because 617s ground crew would remain at Scampton. That’s the difference. So that you don’t have that sort of ongoing connection except as aircrew. I mean, you talk, if you talked to people who have been aircrew and we’ve got a near neighbour who was in the Royal Air Force and he still goes. He was a, he flew helicopters and various things. And he still has Squadron reunions. But I think that’s the difference. Understandable when you know how the, you know sort of how the system works. I don’t know about the Navy although my niece has just retired as a naval officer. I don’t know. They, they are sort of posted to ships more or less. So I think the navy and the Royal Air Force have a similar —
JS: System.
KH: A similar sort of system. Unlike, unlike the Army and probably the Royal Marines.
JS: And he didn’t discuss the war much?
KH: No.
JS: In the years that followed it. He went back to working at the bank as you said.
KH: Yes.
JS: Because he felt he owed them that because they had released him to go.
KH: Yes.
JS: And he stayed working in Durham.
KH: He stayed in Durham. He, he for a short while he was moved to Bishop Auckland which is about twelve, twelve or fifteen miles outside the city. He moved to Lloyds Bank there for a short while but didn’t move out of the city because it was within easy travelling distance. So, yes he remained at Lloyds Bank in Durham until he, until he retired. Yes. He became a sub manager at one of the sub branches of the city but it was a sub-branch in one of the mining villages. So it was not a case of having to move. So we, as a family we remained in the city and I only left the city when I joined the Royal Air Force myself and then when I went to university and then, you know that sort of broke the, broke the connection although after, after we were married because my wife and I were married in the city in our parish church and after having lived in the East Midlands we moved back to the North East but not to the city because I was then working in Newcastle. So it was only my parents who remained in in the city and they both remained there until they died.
JS: And you lost your father at quite a young age, didn’t you?
KH: My father. Yes. He died very very suddenly when he was only fifty nine. Which was a great shock. Particularly as, or within, within the previous fortnight he’d had a full flying medical and passed. Passed his full flying medical and then had a massive heart attack within a fortnight. So it was, that was quite a, quite a shock for all of us.
JS: For all of you. Yeah.
KH: And at that time my sister was in, was living in Australia because her husband was a civil engineer and he was working out there and so, she wasn’t here when he died.
JS: And your sister’s name you told me was Ann.
KH: My sister was Ann.
JS: Ann. Yeah. And your mother’s name for the record.
KH: My mother’s name was Hilda.
JS: Hilda. That’s right.
KH: Her maiden name was Lambeth. L A M B E T H. And that is my middle name.
JS: Ok. And she stayed in the city, did she?
KH: She stayed in the city. She remained in the family home that was bought. That they bought after the war when my father was demobbed and until she eventually went into Sherman House Hospital which was a Church of England Old People’s Home which was where she died after having, having had a series of strokes unfortunately.
JS: And you did give me the address of the family home at the time.
KH: The family home that was bought after the war was 24 Church Street Head. Church Street having been split into two sections, Church Street proper which ended where, just above St Oswald’s Church which was our parish church and the parish church. The infant school which was attached to the parish church that was sort of the dividing line. Up to that point it was Church Street and from there up to the crossroads at the top it was Church Street Head. One of those peculiar things that you get in cities where one street has two sections.
JS: Yeah.
KH: Yeah. It was, in those days it was basically on the outskirts of the city and just beyond the road that ran across at the crossroads there was the university. One of the university science colleges there. But beyond, but that was quite small. And beyond that were woods that, the woods which surround the city and a lot of that land was owned by the university because the majority of the land around Durham City was owned either by the university or the Cathedral, and all that land now is occupied by new colleges. There are one, two, three, four. At least four colleges now on the south side of the city. No five. Because there was a female college opened. That was the first one to be opened just after the war and it was opened by the Queen when she was Princess Elizabeth. So there are all those colleges now are built on what were woods and fields. It’s quite, quite an alteration. And I haven’t lived in the city since 1961, and, and I’m quite certain that there have been a lot more alterations since. Well, I knew the city obviously beyond ’61. I didn’t live in the city after ’61 but obviously my mother and father did. So until we moved south in 2000 I was in and out of, in and out of the city so I know what developments went, went on up to the beginning of the current century but what’s gone on in since then is anybody’s guess from my point of view. Obviously there must have been a lot more development but —
JS: Yeah.
KH: Not that I’m aware of.
JS: Places change don’t they? Yeah. Right. Well, that’s really comprehensive. Thank you very much for all that for your time in, and your patience in talking to me about that. Is there anything else that you can think that you would like us to say for the record given that it is a Digital Archive. Was there anything that you would like to say? Anything you can think of now or any comments that you would like to make?
KH: Not really. Except, the only thing that I would say is that I feel that it is vitally important that what the likes of my parents, my wife’s parents and their generation what they did for this country should never ever be forgotten. And the generations that come up it should be made quite clear to them why we are still a free country. And they should never assume that things will just drop into their lap. Everything that is worth anything has to be fought for and cherished. Those are the things that I think are sometimes lacking in the teachings now of the youngsters coming up like, like our granddaughter. I mean our two children when they were at school were taught a certain amount of history and in fact, it’s quite amusing. They came home on one occasion and we, we discovered that they were being taught the details of the ‘39/45 war as history. So we decided as parents that we weren’t just parents we were history. But you know, that was, that’s the lighter side of it. But I think seriously the current young generation I don’t think they’re taught the history. Not just what happened in two world wars although obviously they’re getting a lot about the First World War just at the moment but I think, you know some of the so called ancient history of this country on which a lot of our civil rights are founded. A lot, a lot of that doesn’t seem to be taught anymore and I think that is very sad. And I think, you know the education system needs to be looked at in that respect because we can’t afford to lose our history because that is part of our identity. Alright. I might be pontificating a bit but I do feel fairly strongly about it and I wouldn’t want to be called a Little Englander but you know I think we need to be proud of Great Britain and ‘great’ being the important part of it.
JS: I don’t think many people will disagree with you. I think that’s absolutely a fair point. Well, again thank you very much. Thank you for your time and your patience and thank you to Sybil as well, your wife who is here with us. And I very much appreciated you taking the time
KH: I’m only too pleased to have been able to do it because I think it’s important that those of us who lived through the war should leave a record of what, what happened so as far as they’re concerned. And you know sadly the people who actually fought the war for us are becoming few and far between now so it’s only the likes of us who are now getting sort of towards the end of our active life as you might say you know we’re the only ones who perhaps have a memory of it. And if those memories disappear a bit like the, some of the memories of the First World War which have just disappeared and only been found by archaeologists and things like that. Because there was no such things as digital recordings.
JS: No. No.
KH: Which is what we’ve got now.
JS: No. We’re fortunate to have the tools now at our disposal and that’s what the Digital Archive is all about.
KH: Yeah.
JS: Which is keeping those memories alive and keeping that message alive
KH: Yeah.
JS: So that, so what you’ve done for us today is really important.
KH: I’m pleased.
JS: So thank you very much both of you.
SH: It’s ok.
KH: Pleased to help.
JS: Thank you.
KH: Really pleased to help. Thanks
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ken Hayton
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Joyce Sharland
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHaytonK171004, PHaytonK1701
Format
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00:59:30 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Durham (County)
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Tyne and Wear
England--Yorkshire
England--Durham
England--London
England--Newcastle upon Tyne
England--Sunderland (Tyne and Wear)
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Hayton’s father, George Stanley Hayton (Stan), worked worked for Lloyds Bank. In 1940 Stan left his post to join the Royal Air Force; Ken recalled going to Durham station to see his father off, travelling to start basic training at RAF Padgate. Ken believes his father completed his training as a fitter armourer at RAF Lytham before joining 97 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa. When 617 Squadron replaced 97 Squadron, Ken remained and was involved in bombing up 617 Squadron aircraft ahead of the Dambuster operation. Stan was sent to help with the clear up of a Lancaster crash on land near a bomb dump and for the rest of his life he could not stand the smell of lamb being cooked. Towards the end of the war Stan was posted to RAF Riccall where he prepared redundant .303 browning aircraft guns for storage, he was finally demobbed from RAF Waddington in 1945 and returned to Lloyds Bank where he remained until retirement. After the war Stan trained for his private pilot license at Newcastle Aero Club and took both Ken and his mother flying in the club’s Tiger Moth.
Ken describes his schoolboy life in Durham, including leaving the Anderson Shelter one evening and watching searchlights scanning the sky over Sunderland. One bombing on Durham was shortly after Coventry had been bombed: the mist rose from the river and shrouded the city, with local folklore being St Cuthbert protecting the Cathedral. During his father’s service at RAF Woodhall Spa, Ken recalled travelling there with his mother from Durham by train and seeing extensive bomb damage to York railway station. Ken served three years in the RAF, posted to RAF Insworth a non-flying RAF station where the RAF Records Section was based, transferring to the Coronation Unit for training ahead of the ceremony in 1953. He recalled route lining in the Haymarket, due to the narrowing of the road he was very close to the Queen’s coach and in the evening went to Buckingham Palace and assisted the police with crowd control. Ken recalls watching The Dambusters film with his father in 1955 and his father commenting on the accuracy of the film.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1943-05
1944
1945
1953
1954
1955
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jim Sheach
Julie Williams
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
617 Squadron
97 Squadron
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
ground personnel
Lancaster
RAF Innsworth
RAF Padgate
RAF Riccall
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodhall Spa
searchlight
shelter
superstition
Tiger Moth
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/888/11127/AHughesWH151021.1.mp3
33613f53da69484a983e122f2ed1e463
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hughes, Harry
William Henry Hughes
W H Hughes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM (- 2023, 159079 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 102 Squadron and then with a Mosquito Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hughes, WH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: It’s all in the book, I think, mainly, isn’t it?
AS: Most of it is, but we need to get it on tape. I think. This is an interview with Harry Hughes, flight lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM, a navigator in wartime Bomber Command on 102 Squadron and then later on Mosquitos. My name is Adam Sutch and the interview is being conducted at Harry’s home in St Ives. Harry, thank you ever so much for agreeing to this interview. Perhaps we can start by going over a little your early days. I believe, you were born in Dorset.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. Did you have brothers and sisters?
HH: A sister, yeah. But I went to school in Sherborne, the Grammar School in Sherborne not the big school, not the public school. And, it was a good school but there we are, I think it was a good school anyway but they’ve, in their wisdom they’ve closed it down now and they amalgamated with the Lord Digby school, ‘cause the Lord Digby school is gonna cost too much to repair or something and I think some builder wanted to get hold of their building anyway and make flats out of it. You know, usual thing.
AS: Yeah. How did you get on at school? What were your subjects? What did you do well at in school?
HH: Mainly in maths. I got a distinction in Maths and a distinction in Physics and Chemistry. Otherwise I got all passes except English language in which I got, I didn’t fail, I got a pass, just got a pass so I didn’t get my ‘tric. Did so⸻
AS: Sorry.
HH: Anyway that’s beside the point. Anyway I left there in 1940 and my very first job was a night watchman for some lady at Lewisham Manor near Sherborne, who lost all her staff and she wanted somebody to be in the house at night and to patrol the grounds. While I went round the grounds once, no, never again, it was too bloody scary [laughs].
AS: Things that go bump in the night.
HH: Yeah, there was hooting and things [laughs]. Anyway that’s beside the point.
AS: But this was 1940. Was this, was the Battle of Britain going on over your head or had that finished?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: What, was that what pushed you towards the air force or?
HH: No. Well, I think. Well, what pushed me towards the air force was the fact that I went, my father wanted me to join the navy and I, I went down to Portsmouth to sit an exam to be a writer or a supply probationer [unclear] his own clerk, and I didn’t fancy that, but anyway they gave you twelve blocks of pounds, shillings and pence to add up that way and then you had to add up that way and then you had to add them all up across and then the figure you got down here and the figure you got down here should have been the same. Mine was nowhere near. Anyway.
AS: But your maths were good so, you threw it really, didn’t you?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Did you deliberately mess up, because your maths were good.
HH: Yeah. Yes, I know, but not the accountancy type [laughs]. Anyway, we then, coming back on the train, I was pretty certain I’d failed, so, coming back on the train, I had to change at Salisbury and I had about an hour to waste, wait at Salisbury so I went in the town and I saw an RAF recruiting office. So I went in there and saw a sergeant there and I signed on for aircrew.
AS: Just like that?
HH: Yeah. And they took me on as a pilot or navigator and then I had to go to Oxford for attestation and I went there and with all the gunners from South Wales and what have you became gunners rather, from the mines, you know, and so that’s how I came to be in the air force.
AS: Okay. Did you go through the aircrew recruiting centres in London at Lord’s and?
HH: Yes, I was the first one there.
AS: Really?
HH: Very first one to go there, I think. In July ‘41, I suppose, yeah.
AS: That’s pretty early. What, what happened then? They’ve taken you into the air force at that stage, I suppose, you didn’t know what you were going to do.
HH: Well, we went to ITW and⸻
AS: Where was that?
HH: Down Torquay, which is very nice and, I’ve got my bloody reading glasses on, no wonder I can’t see, and then I was sent down to America to train.
AS: Okay.
HH: In the United States Air Force.
AS: Straight from Initial Training Wing.
HH: Yes. Straight from ITW. We didn’t get a chance. Later on they used to, they did a little course on Tiger Moths up on somewhere in the world, somewhere up that way.
AS: So, you hadn’t actually flown in an aircraft when you went to.
HH: No.
AS: How did you, obviously they wouldn’t fly you over, but how did you get across the Atlantic, in a convoy or?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. What was that called?
HH: I went out on a ship called the Highland Princess, which I ended up selling. I sold the Highland Princess, the Highland Brigade and the Highland Monarch.
AS: Presumably not during the war when you got there.
HH: No. Four of them, I sold them in about ’51, or ’52, something like that
AS: Okay. So, you’re going across the Atlantic in convoy. Was the ship crowded? What was the conditions like?
HH: Well, we were in hammocks, you know, on meat hooks in the, you hung your hammock on meat hooks in the lower hold, you know?
AS: Gosh.
HH: And we are right up on the stern of the ship because every time the, I think she was twin screwer if I remember rightly, because every time the ship rolled the prop shoot [mimics a sound] [laughs].
AS: Is that the prop coming out of the water?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Gosh! Gosh, and so, there must have been hundreds of men on the ship with you.
HH: Yeah.
AS: All [unclear]
HH: The one thing you found out, you had to hang on to your four and a half hat because one went missing, what did he do? Go and pinch another one. So, it went all round the ship [laughs]. [unclear]
AS: Like measles, isn’t it? Yes, yeah, absolutely.
HH: Yeah, I remember that so, I hid mine, anyway.
AS: So, you went across in uniform with
HH: Yeah.
AS: Hundreds of other people.
HH: No, when we got to, we were being issued with, at Wilmslow I think it was in Cheshire, we’d been issued with a grey flannel suit to wear in America, ‘cause we all had to go down grey worsted suits, you know.
AS: Ah, ‘cause America wasn’t in the war then.
HH: ‘Cause they weren’t in the war then, yeah.
AS: Right.
HH: So, and so we went down to Maxwell Field in Alabama first of all for acclimatization.
AS: Wait, where did the ship come in?
HH: Halifax.
AS: Oh, so you landed in Canada.
HH: Went to Canada first, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: And then, I think, yes I think we were there, we were trained down to Toronto, I think, and then we went from Toronto down to Alabama, to Maxwell Field, to Montgomery, Alabama.
AS: Okay. Was the whole journey really well organised⸻
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: Or was is the usual service mess up?
HH: No.
AS: No. It was good?
HH: It was good, yeah, everything seemed to go to plan I think, pretty well.
AS: How were you received at Montgomery, at Maxwell Air Force base?
HH: Oh, pretty well. In fact, the very first Sunday we were there, first weekend we were there, the American officer came round and, when we were having lunch, and he said, there’s a fair in town at the moment and they’ve heard that you boys are here, so we’d like you, they’d like you to come along and be their guest. So we thought we were going there but no, it was a scam, we were all scammed out of our money. Yeah, so we woke up in the morning, everybody had lost all their money, it was a real American type scam you know and I saw a coach loading up with American service people all in uniform. So I said, ‘Where is this coach going?’ ‘Oh’, he said, one of them said, ‘We are going to a little village called Prattville just outside of Montgomery and we’re going to church and if we’re lucky we will get invited out for lunch afterwards.’ So, I said, ‘Can we come along?’ Then the three of us got on board anyway. And we went in and sang all the hymns [laughs] and, real gospel stuff too it was, yeah.
AS: Deep South, isn’t it?
HH: You know, happy happy-clappy type of fellows, kind of stuff, you know, and anyway afterwards all the American were all invited out to lunch and we were there, standing there, wondering what the hell to do, because it was a long walk back to Maxwell from Prattville ‘bout twelve miles I should think and then suddenly this lovely blonde comes up, she says, ‘You all from Maxwell?’ I said, ‘Yeah, as a matter of fact, we are.’ ‘Oh’, she says, ‘Matter of fact what sort of language is that?’ she says. ‘Well’, I says, ‘Well, you probably wouldn’t understand but we are English’ [laughs]. ‘Oh’, she says, ‘English, you are English?’ And she rushed around and she got all the Americans to cancel so that we were all invited to and she was a daughter of a, she collared me anyway and the other two were taken off somewhere else, I don’t know where. And then, we had lunch and her father was the local judge and he said afterwards, after we had lunch, he said, ‘I guess you would like to take my daughter out for a drive, would you? We gotta a nice Buick in the back. Buick with a steering column for your change’ and I didn’t even have a licence [unclear] never mind [laughs]. Never mind, and I got in anyway and I drove her out, bit of snogging and came back. And that was that and I never saw her again, she, I heard later she married an American navy pilot, who got killed in the Pacific. Yeah. So I could have followed it up if I wanted to but I didn’t but by that time I was back in Canada anyway.
AS: So when did the serious business of learning to fly start and how did that go?
HH: Pardon?
AS: When did the serious business of learning to fly start and how did that go?
HH: Well, when I go to, we went down to, we were posted from Maxwell Field down to Albany in Georgia to an aerodrome called Darr Aero Tech, that was the owner of the aerodrome, I think, Darr Aero Tech. And it’s still there, I was there not long ago. And so, I suddenly had to do a flight commander’s check and he decided, he decided to wash me out so I went back up to Canada and trained as a navigator.
AS: On the flying piece, how much flying did you do? Do you think it was fair that you got washed out?
HH: No.
AS: How did that come about?
HH: Well, they wanted, they, the Air Ministry wanted as many people washed out as possible who could train as navigators, bomb aimers and gunners and what have you. They weren’t too short of gunners but they.
AS: I believe you had an instructor with a German sounding name.
HH: Oh yeah. Schmidt.
AS: Schmidt.
HH: Yeah, that was a joke really. That was in the book, wasn’t it? Yeah.
AS: So maybe he sabotaged your flying career, your piloting career. So, I presume that a lot of people were washed out at this stage.
HH: They were, but [unclear] was never washed out.
AS: Wow.
HH: Over eighty percent. I know it was a whole lot of us came back. And on Pearl Harbour, the day of Pearl Harbour we were giving an exhibition rugby match in the town. And suddenly over the tannoy came an announcement that Pearl Harbour had been attacked by the Japanese and so everybody went home, they all packed up and went home. So we went home as well. And that night, I had a place I used to get under the wire and go into town at night, you know [laughs] and when I came back to get under the wire there was a man there with a gun [laughs]. And he was trying to shoot me because he thought I was a Japanese. He said, look mate, I don’t like your look, you look like a bloody Japanese [laughs].
AS: Did you go out of through the gate after that?
HH: No. Well, I didn’t bother after that.
AS: So.
HH: I went back, well, the following day we were on the train to go back up to Canada.
AS: Is that quick?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Flight commander’s test and then pack your kit and off you go.
HH: About for, about a week later I suppose I was back, I was on the train going back up to Canada. And it’s quite an experience travelling by train out in America, isn’t it? In those days with the dining cars and everything, and the bars and but we had to change, we were on what was called the Chattanooga Choo Choo, but going the wrong way [laughs]. We were going there, were going north but the Chattanooga Choo Choo goes, comes south, doesn’t it? But we were on that line anyway. And I remember we stopped off in Boston and we had a bit of a wait there so we decided to go into town, we never did see Boston because we got on the way into town, we got attacked by these Irish Americans.
AS: For being British?
HH: We had taken them into the war.
AS: Okay.
HH: It’s our fault but [laughs]. And they were at war now. And they’d be getting called up and be killed. And then anyway we got away with that alright.
AS: You were physically attacked?
HH: Yeah, yeah. They had knives and God knows what. They weren’t very nice people. Anyway, I say Irish American but I imagine they were Irish Americans, being in Boston, wouldn’t you?
AS: Big population there, isn’t it?
HH: So, then I went to Trenton where I was interviewed by a group captain and he was Raymond Mass‘s brother.
AS: God lord, Raymond Mass of the Agfa?
HH: Yeah. It was his brother. He looked just like him too. Yeah. And.
AS: Was that a sympathetic interview?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: You wanted to be a pilot and then suddenly that stopped. Was the system generally sympathetic to you?
HH: Oh yes. So they were quite keen to take me on as a navigator. And so then I went from there to Quebec City, L’Ancienne-Lorette. And from there up to Rivers in Manitoba. Which was a dry town, that was, Prohibition there.
AS: Oh dear. Good lord.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Were you in uniform by this time? RAF uniform?
HH: Yeah. Wearing a Canadian uniform in fact [laughs]. They issued us with a Canadian uniform, which were quite smart actually. And they were very similar to ours but the cloth is a little kinder, shall we say?
AS: So, you’re in Prohibition and you went out, presumably looking for a drink, do you?
HH: Well, we knew that Mont-Joli was dry but there was a little, there was a port just down the river called Rimouski, which was a timber port mainly. I remember when I took my Institute of Chartered Shipbrokers exams, one of the questions was, could you explain what were the, how many and what sort of cargo was exported from Rimouski, well everybody else thought it was in Russia, didn’t’ they? [laughs]
AS: But you had a clear mental picture.
HH: Yeah, I’ve seen it. Anyway, we were trying to, we were drinking some, we went to a bar and we were drinking this clear liquid, we had asked for whiskey but they served us up with this clear whiskey, clear liquid and when we were coming back in a taxi we were, we’d had about two each of these, we were all very sick we had to stop the taxi we were really sick and we saw afterwards that [unclear] don’t drink anything that is given to you because there is a stuff called alcool which is made from wood alcohol and it’s can make you blind.
AS: It’s like drinking anti-freeze, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Gosh, lucky escape!
HH: And so that was that. So then from Mont-Joli we went to the staff end course at Rivers in Manitoba which was astronavigation, advanced navigations course it was.
AS: What was the basic navigation course? What was your basic navigation training like? Was it mostly classroom or?
HH: A lot of in the air.
AS: What were you flying in?
HH: Ansons. Yeah. Mark 1 Ansons you had to wind up the undercarriage, you remember?
AS: Yeah. Did you take to it easily, to the navigation, because of your maths proficiency or?
HH: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: And you found it easy to be an accurate navigator?
HH: Yes, I mean, you’re training all the time of course and right the way through when I came home from Rivers, came home over on the Union-Castle ship, called the Cape Town Castle, which I didn’t sell. And, what’s the time?
AS: Now.
HH: [alarm clock rings] The taxi, yeah.
AS: Okay. We’ll pause at there, shall we? [recording paused]
HH: Yeah. Astronavigation course A and it was mainly a flying by using star shots yeah. But when I got on the squadron, I mean you had to carry about three sets of books, you know, and a naval almanac as well. Had to work out your star shots. But when I got to the squadron they had a marvellous bit of equipment, a little projector over the navigator’s tail [unclear], which about that high off the table and you had to measure it up with a special stick to make certain it was in focus and on this astrograph there was three stars you could use and, two stars rather, two stars plus Polaris you use to get a three star fix, and you worked out a datum point for the time before you, before you got airborne and drew it on your chart and then you lay your chart down on the table and lined it up with the astrograph and then this projected the position lines of these stars onto your chart. So all, so, the bomb aimer, all the bomb aimer had to do was to take the star charts, he was, my bomb aimer was a trained navigator anyway and I think he’s still alive, I’m not sure, and.
AS: So it was very much team work.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Between you and the bomb aimer but actually on astros. So, you, we jumped straight on to being on the squadron. Did you know, as soon as you started navigator training, that you would be going to Bomber Command?
HH: Well, it’s pretty obvious I would be. Yeah.
AS; Okay. And, so, you finished your training in Canada, came back to the UK by ship, and what happened next before you got on to the squadron?
HH: I went to [unclear], is it Cumberland?
AS: I think Scotland.
HH: Up near Carlisle, north of Carlisle then, between Carlisle and Keswick I suppose. And a little aerodrome there and we learned to fly in wartime conditions, you know, where the balloon barrages were et cetera. Where to avoid them.
AS: And is this when you stepped up from Ansons to bombers?
HH: No, no, this is still on Ansons. And then from there we went down to Hampstead Norris still on Ansons and then we went to Harwell, Hampstead Norris was a satellite of Harwell at the time and then we crewed up with our pilot and wireless operator, I think we already had a wireless operator and we crewed up with bomb aimer and engineer, no, no, we didn’t have an engineer at that time, this is on Wellingtons and.
AS: What were they like the training Wellingtons, were they in good nick, were they ropey old kites or?
HH: No, no, pretty ropey, they were draughty as hell, oh God they were draughty. The wind used to whistle through that fabric, you know. [unclear] construction, wasn’t it?
AS: What was, was there a step up in gear going on to heavier airplanes and operational tactics?
HH: Oh yeah, yeah.
AS: You are moving much more quickly in your calculations and navigation than perhaps when you were training?
HH: We did quite a lot of cross countries and Bullseyes we did in OTU.
AS: What’s Bullseye?
HH: Bullseyes we did down, we’d go down to, say the Channel Islands and experience a little bit of flak there and then we’d come back up again and fly across to Portsmouth or somewhere and fly across the coast there or else we’d fly, out to the North Sea towards Denmark and come back into Hull.
AS: So this was almost a simulated bombing mission, was that?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Training, for training. Okay.
HH: They were called Bullseyes anyway in cooperation with the army, I suppose, with the the ack-ack.
AS: So, when you’re at OTU, you’re on Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Then we went up to a place called Riccall in Yorkshire, near Selby, and we had to, we trained, we converted onto Halifaxes.
AS: What, can you remember what year, what month this would be when you?
HH: Well, that would be about Christmas of, just around Christmas in ’42, I suppose.
AS: Wow, so what type of Halifax would this be? The Merlin one or the?
HH: The Merlin one, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Yes, so the Hali, Hali 1, what’s his name? Not Gibson, what the hell was his name?
AS: Cheshire?
HH: No. Gus Walker.
AS: Gus, oh yeah, yeah.
HH: He was a lovely man, Gus was, and he’d taken out, all the mid upper turret and the front nose cone as well, there is a very big heavy turret in the front nose and like the Lanc was, you know. And then, it’s pretty useless that front turret was but anyway. Then, eventually we got the Hali II.1 A which had a four gun [unclear] turret on the top, yes, same as on the Hali 3.
AS: So your mid upper then got his job back.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, Gus Walker he took these turrets out to save weight, to carry more bombs?
HH: To save weight, yeah. Just to save weight, to make it improve performance a bit. And get a better height. I better ring up my taxi.
AS: So, by taking the turrets off, Gus Water was giving his aircrews more of a chance really, wasn’t he?
HH: Yeah, but then later on they improved the, we still had the Merlin 22s, same as the Lanc had, you know. Merlin 22s, but the Mark II.1 A was a much better aircraft, you could get up to, you know, eighteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two thousand.
AS: Loaded?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Which is, you were at the same height as the Lancs. And the Lancs had the habit of dropping their bombs on you. Which happened on our very first trip. We went to, we were waiting to have a nice easy trip but no, we got Essen. And then, when we were over the, when we were over the target on our bombing run but a whole lot of bombs dropped on us, a whole lot of incendiaries dropped on us and the engineer and myself had to go back and kick them out the door [laughs] and which is good practice actually, because it happened to us again over Wuppertal.
AS: Really?
HH: But that time there was a, I think it was a two thousand pounder or a thousand pounder, I don’t know, and it came and took our port rudder right off, and the port tail and the port tail blade yeah.
AS: And what sort of problems did that give the pilot?
HH: Mh?
AS: What sort of problems did that give the pilot?
HH: Well, we found, she was, it was still flying alright but I found that we were crabbing a bit. And I remember seeing a light below and I said, take a drift on that, would you? And anyway we found that we were crabbing quite about ten degrees to port, I think, yeah.
AS: So you do all your sums again and take that out by adjusting the.
HH: No, I just took ten degrees off every course [laughs]. Yeah.
AS: That must have been quite a hairy landing I would think.
HH: No, [unclear], yeah. I can’t remember it being anything but normal.
AS: Wow.
HH: And when we got back, the little corporal in charge of our ground crew, he came out, what the bloody hell have you done to my aircraft! [laughs] as if it was our fault, you know.
AS: Did you fly your own regular aircraft that you got attached to?
HH: Yes, yeah. D, we always flew in D, until one time we let, we were on leave and I think it was an Australian pilot took it and he was very conscious of saving fuel. So he throttled right back coming back and the result was that the, when we went to run the engine up the following day, the engine started to shake, port engine started to shake and suddenly the prop came off and went right through where I’d be normally sitting and sliced my table in half, but I was in the rest position now for take-off you know.
AS: Wow. So that was one of your nine lives gone?
HH: Yeah. I tell that story I say, as you can see I’m still here [laughs]. I wasn’t sitting there at the time.
AS: So, did they repair the aeroplane or was that the demise of D-Dog?
HH: But that was it finished, D-Dog was finished then and we got the Mark 2.1 A then.
AS: Still as D-Dog or was there a superstition about that?
HH: No. We were still with D, yeah. But, Jackie Miles, he was our mid upper gunner, he was really pleased to get that. We got four guns, he was really happy [laughs]. But it was much safer to have somebody in a blister looking down underneath.
AS: Is that what he used to do before he got the target?
HH: Yeah. Yes, and he used to put it in his log book, duty, rear gunner’s me [laughs].
AS: Yeah. On, when you were on ops, had the idea of the bomber stream come in by then?
HH: Oh yes. Yes, we were on the very first time they dropped, the Pathfinders used Oboe on the Essen raids. I think it was first used on the 5th of March, wasn’t it?
AS: I don’t know, 1943. This was.
HH: Yeah, ’43, ’43 by this time, yeah.
AS: So, it was quite early on in the idea of the Pathfinders.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, you went on ops just as the stream and the concentration were starting to take place. I know you were deep in the bowels of the aeroplane at your navigation table. Did you, did the crew see other aircraft around them, feel the other aircraft around them?
HH: No, you are in the slipstream the whole time. Especially when you got near the target, when you’re on your final run, you sort of you feel the slipstream and you have got to remember that five percent of our losses were due to collisions, it has been estimated.
AS: That’s a high percentage.
HH: I think we were told that at the time to be extra vigiliant, you know.
AS: Against the dangers of collision. What about enemy aircraft on your first tour? Did you have any encounters with the German night fighters?
HH: Oh yeah. [unclear], he shot down two, he shot down a Ju 88 and an Me 110 I think it was, yeah.
AS: And this, this was your rear gunner.
HH: And he had a problem as well. A lot of Battle of Britain pilots would have given their eye tooth for a score like that. Probably would have gotten a DSO and a DFC.
AS: [laughs] there are a lot of unsung deeds in Bomber Command.
HH: Anyway then we finished up in October ’43 and I got sent up to 6 Group, it was a Canadian crew.
AS: With the Canadians. How did you?
HH: And they wanted everybody to be Canadians, you know. They didn’t want an English instructor so I got, I quickly got posted down to 3 Group. And
AS: Somewhere along the way you, you picked up the DFM. Was that during your first tour?
HH: Yes, was the first tour.
AS: And what was the story behind your DFM?
HH: I don’t know really. It’s not in the book even, not even in the, my citation is not there, there’s a book of DFMs in the RAF, book of DFCs and DFMs. And I think there was an Australian, called Cameron, he found this book of DFMs but I don’t know, I think Gus Walker probably. You see, I’d broken my left foot, I’d broken a bone in my left foot and what with having leave, we were due for leave I went on leave on with my foot in plaster, came back and had the plaster taken off and then I fell off my bicycle [laughs]. Didn’t help. So, the doc said, ‘Right, I’m going to keep you in hospital until your foot’s cured. I don’t want any arguments.’ And the following day Sam came in, he said, we are on tonight, [unclear] and they want me to take a spare navigator and I said, ‘No way, Sam, let’s go and see the doc.’ The doc was in a good mood ‘cause he was going on leave. So, have you read all this before?
AS: No.
HH: So, [pause] he said, ‘Alright you, you can go this time, but’, he says, ‘Provided you come back into hospital as soon as you get back. If you get back’, he said, ‘If you get back.’ So, he then went on leave. Anyway, I duly arrived at main briefing, done my navigation briefing, I think we came at main briefing and Gus Walker was on the door. And Gus said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘I’m on crutches you see. I’m going on ops.’ And he said, ‘Why?’ ‘I don’t where my crew is going, I don’t want them to go without me.’ ‘Well, oh alright then.’ So I went in and we went to Berlin that night. And when I got back, Gus was still on the station. ‘Cause he was in charge of three squadrons, wasn’t he? Up there. And he said, ‘Right, young Hughes,’ he says, ‘I’ve been hearing all about you, he says, ‘It’s alright, I’ll take you back to the hospital myself.’ And then I got in his car and he tore me off a bit of a mild strip for being irresponsible and some of that and then as I got out, he said, ‘Bloody good show anyway, Hughes.’ And I think it was he who recommended me for a DFM, I don’t know, probably.
AS: Excellent. It’s a wonderful, wonderful story. What happened, you said, you tried the book in the RAF club to find your citation. Have you explored anywhere else, to try and find the DFM citation?
HH: I did write to some time ago, I don’t know, I think they did, you get from RAF records I think.
AS: Okay.
HH: Because I wrote to them the other day and asked them if, ‘cause I had a letter from them to say that I could retain the rank, substantive rank of flight lieutenant when I finished in the reserve and use the courtesy rank of squadron leader. But I’ve never used it. So I thought it would be a nice thing to have on my tombstone, so I wrote and asked them if that still pertained, shall we say.
AS: And you are still waiting for a reply.
HH: Well, they wrote back to me and said that I’d have to give them some more proof of who I was, you know, passports, et cetera so I sent them up a copy of my, one of my utility bills and my council tax demand.
AS: Well, hopefully that’s good enough.
HH: It only went off last week, so we will have to wait and see.
AS: You mentioned briefings. I know the targets were different and the weather was different, but could you give me some idea of an average preparation for a mission from waking up in the morning to taking off. Is that possible, that sort of things that?
HH: Yeah, because you went down to the, you went down to the flights and you stood in the apron outside the squadron offices and at ten to ten on the dot, if you were on that night, the phone would ring. You knew you were on that night then and then, but if you waited and waited until ten past ten the phone would ring again to say the squadron’s stood down by which time we had all disappeared ‘cause we’d all. Didn’t want to go to on a bloody route march or something [unclear].
AS: So it was all incredibly secret but the routine gave it away.
HH: Yeah [laughs].
AS: So if the phone call came at ten to ten, you knew you were on ops that night, what would happen then?
HH: Well I did, we’d go down to our aircraft and check all the equipment in it and then if necessary you take it up on an air test and then you were back on the ground again by, about eleven, eleven thirty, and then you’d either come back and go to lunch and or else you’d and then after you’d had lunch you’d go on for navigation briefing at about two o’clock.
AS: So the navigator was the first person in the crew to know where you were going, what timing was.
HH: Yes, we knew where we were going, yeah.
AS: Was that a very full briefing, with weather? Is this when you drew up your courses, you got your turning points and what not?
HH: Sorry?
AS: Was this a very full briefing?
HH: Oh yeah, well, the navigation briefing, yes, you got your various tracks you had to go on to and hopefully they’re taking you around the defended areas you know.
AS: The flak and the searchlights, yeah. Was there a lot of work involved for you to prepare your charts?
HH: Yes, it took quite a time. You were mainly with your bomb aimer to help you, you know. Harry Hoover, my bomb aimer was a trained navigator, he trained in South Africa I think.
AS: So, you two were the only ones that knew at the navigation briefing the target. Was it difficult to keep it secret from your skipper and your crew?
HH: Oh no, you didn’t have to keep it secret but you just told the rest of the crew where we’re going so all this business about being a gasp when they, when the curtains were pulled across from the map.
AS: Probably you already knew.
HH: We all knew where we were going by that time, at least my crew did.
AS: So, you’ve done your navigation briefing and what happened then? Just sit around waiting for the main crew briefing or did you have duties to do?
HH: No, we just, by the time you finished doing the nav, it’s about time for the main briefing and then having done the main briefing you then went for an ops breakfast. The ops breakfast, which was bacon and eggs, baked beans, all the things you shouldn’t eat.
AS: Baked beans?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And you’re flying at twenty thousand feet.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Oh, that could have been interesting. What was the atmosphere like? Was there a lot of tension? Was there a lot of horseplay? Was there a lot of fear? What was the atmosphere like?
HH: I don’t know, I can’t remember now, there was a feeling of are we gonna make it or not, you know.
AS: Was that a personal thing or something that you talked about with the crew?
HH: I would never, never, never, never, my mid upper gunner, he, one day, we were in our room, I shared a room with him and he packed up all his biscuits on his bed and folded up all the blankets and sheets. What are you doing that for? And he said, ‘I don’t think we are gonna come back. So I’m putting the things in order now.’ And he got all his paperwork out and everything, letters and everything to his wife and things.
AS: What did that do to your morale?
HH: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t very happy about it but it was a scrub that night anyway. Then he said, afterwards he said, ‘God, good job we didn’t go to [unclear] because we weren’t going to come back.’ He knew.
AS: But after that on future trips he was fine.
HH: Well, I said, ‘Don’t you ever do that again, Jackie, I said, ‘You never do a thing like that again.’
AS: Tempting fate. What about off duty, what sort of things did you, you guys get up to that you can talk about?
HH: Sorry?
AS: Off duty, did you get much time off to yourself? Or to yourselves as a crew?
HH: Yeah. We, I used to go out with, mainly with another crew ‘cause all our crew, our skipper was commissioned, so we were all and the rest of them, Jackie Miles he lived in Leeds so when he had an evening off, he went back to Leeds and the rear gunner was the same, he was somewhere just outside Leeds. Sam was from Leeds as well, the pilot, so it was only the engineer and myself.
AS: So you latched onto another crew for the,
HH: Yeah.
AS: The social element.
HH: Yes, [unclear] crew, yeah. I was pretty friendly with his navigator but he got killed.
AS: And did the rest of the crew come back?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And brought him back?
HH: They brought him back, yeah.
AS: Your, we were talking about your navigation training and astro, during your time, your first tour on ops, did you start to get Gee in the aeroplane or any other navigational aids that you used?
HH: We had Gee.
AS: You had Gee.
HH: Right from the start, yeah. We had the Mark 1 Gee which was, used to have to tune it, the narrow knobs on the side and you had to tune it to get a signal and it’s like tuning one of those. Televisions, you know.
AS: Keep wandering off. Did you, was it as a big revolution in navigation as people say?
HH: The Gee was, yeah.
AS: The Gee was, it really did make a difference.
HH: Yeah, well, it did make a difference because, but you didn’t get it beyond the Dutch coast, it wouldn’t work beyond the Dutch coast but you had we, well, you had LORAN later, in Mosquitos we had Gee and LORAN. In fact, it really annoys me now to hear the met men talking about the jet stream because we found the very first jet stream. I found a wind of a hundred and ninety five knots at thirty thousand feet.
AS: Tailwind.
HH: Hundred and ninety five knots and when we got back, I told the met man, I said, ‘I got a wind of a hundred and ninety five knots and you were forecasting forty five to fifty knots.’ He said, ‘I don’t believe it, I don’t believe it!’ So he went to Group headquarters and the Group headquarters said we don’t believe it. They went to Command headquarters and the met people up there said they didn’t believe it either. But then everybody else came back with these winds and they suddenly realised what was called jet streams but now they talk about jet streams all the time. And what they mean is where the warm front, the warm tropical front meets the polar maritime front and all the way along that you get depressions form and then, and with it you get this so-called jet stream would form as well. Ah, so which comes first? The frontal systems or the jet stream?
AS: Must be the fronts, must be the fronts. So, when you are doing your tour, you’d had the nasty experience of being bombed twice by your own people, probably 5 Group above you.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Was that the limit of the difficulties you had? Was the aeroplane mechanically reliable or did you suffer?
HH: Oh, we, came back on three engines more times than we came back on four.
AS: Really?
HH: Yeah. I think we came back on three engines eleven times out of our tour.
AS: And what did your ground crew chief say to that?
HH: Well, it wasn’t their fault, necessarily, well, he didn’t think it was anyway.
AS: It’s just overstraining them, is it, full fuel, full bombload climb to heights. Coming back from the raids, what was your pilot like? Was he one of those that, wanted to pour on the coal and get home early or did he stick to heights and courses as briefed or?
HH: Well, he couldn’t do much else with a Halifax. But when I was on Mosquitos, with our New Zealand pilot, we were always first back [laughs]. Yeah.
AS: Becomes a matter of pride. On your first tour still perhaps we can talk a bit more about that. As you got towards the end, did the, you knew presumably you were going to stop on, what, thirty trips?
HH: Well, I did twenty six in fact.
AS: Okay.
HH: Which we were screened two trips early. I would have done twenty eight for my first tour, ‘cause the pilot had already done two second Dickey trips to start with. [door bell rings] That’s my taxi now.
AS: Okay.
HH: So I’ll just pause this. [recording paused] We were just talking about your tour length. The question I was going to ask is did you feel a real rising tension as you got towards the end of your tour?
HH: But we didn’t know we were towards the end, we thought we had another two trips to do.
AS: Okay.
HH: But, I remember Sam coming in and he says, ‘I have some good news for you, we’re screens and you’re off on leave from tomorrow. You are all going on leave tomorrow.’
AS: What did that feel like?
HH: Mh?
AS: What did that feel like?
HH: Ah, it was good feeling but I forget what happened now. When I was on Mosquitos I think when I was doing my last trip on Mosquitos ‘cause you had to do fifty on Mosquitos you see for a tour.
AS: So, you finished on 102 Squadron and were there many crews that went all the way through like yours did?
HH: No, not a great deal, I wish I had the [unclear] I’ve got it somewhere, might be in that case there, book of all the losses, you know. 102 Squadron losses.
AS: Oh, perhaps we can look at that tomorrow or now if you like.
HH: Well I, it might be in that case, I’m not sure.
AS: Let’s pause this and we’ll go and have a look. [recording paused]
AS: Harry, good morning, it’s day two of our interview sessions. It’s very good of you to agree to this interview. Can we start by going back to your first tour of operations during the Battle of the Ruhr on Halifaxes. Were you conscious at the time that this was a major battle or was it just one job after another?
HH: We were trying to hit Germany where it hurt, ‘cause we didn’t only go to the Ruhr and we went to places like Pilsen, and then we did Nuremberg and Munich and.
AS: Were you briefed on specific targets in these cities and told what you were going after?
HH: Oh, we knew that Essen was the Krupp works, yeah, and we were given a good, pretty good briefing by the intelligence officer what we were gonna hit because one time we went, we were going to. There was almost a mutiny one day because they were sending to some place I forget, Gelsenkirchen or somewhere, I forget where it was now, and [pause]
AS: What happened then? What was the mutiny all about?
HH: Well, the intelligence officer said that he didn’t know why we were going there, there was nothing there, there was just a spa town that we were going to hit but what we didn’t know, of course, it was a leave centre for the Gestapo and the place was full of the Gestapo officers and but you know initially we said, no, why are we going there, you know? And there was almost not exactly a mutiny but it was a fear of you know, why are we bombing this place, we probably would just hit a lot of women and children.
AS: So, this was 1943. So even at that stage.
HH: This is ’45. ‘43 rather.
AS: So, even at that stage there were some concerns amongst the crews about what you were doing and where you were going.
HH: Yeah, we didn’t, the Hamburg raids for example. That’s the first time there was a real firestorm and we went on three or four of those raids, I forget now, it’s in the book, Hamburg in July ’43. That book is falling to bits, isn’t it?
AS: Well, it happens to all of us, doesn’t it? As we get older. Here we go, 24th of July ’43 and the 27th of July ‘43. Ops Hamburg, yeah. And then the 2nd of August.
HH: Yeah, the 2nd of August when we, we’d already realised that the firestorms, you know, in then, we were dropping our incendiaries first and setting fire to places and then dropping four thousand pounders, two and four thousand pounders on top of the fires which, that’s why it’s called the firestorm, the blast from the comparatively thin-cased two thousand pounders and what have you, would suck in the air and the oxygen, you know, and cause these firestorms.
AS: So, the thin-cased bombs would blow the roofs off and then the incendiaries would go inside and.
HH: Well, you know, in that, wish I could find that, you could sit and watch that, the CD I’ve got somewhere in there of.
AS: Is it of a Hamburg raid?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Is it of a Hamburg raid?
HH: Yes, the first or second of the Hamburg raids which caused the firestorm. And I remember watching this from over the bomb aimer’s shoulder and watching these fires spreading and I remember saying, I felt very sorry for the people down there.
AS: At that time.
HH: At that time, yeah. In fact I said a little prayer for them.
AS: Is this something you discussed with the crew or any of your friends?
HH: Not really, no. I just said a prayer to myself, yeah.
AS: And was that really specific to Hamburg or to?
HH: Just to Hamburg, yeah. ‘Cause that was where the firestorms first started. Well, it was worst then Dresden actually.
AS: I believe so in the numbers lost. So, your first tour was absolutely in the thick of what we call the Battle of the Ruhr and extremely, extremely difficult and dangerous missions.
HH: The people who came after me, they’d done Hamburg and the Battle of the Ruhr, and then they had to follow on doing the Battle of Berlin. You can find my very last trip was to Berlin I think, no, it was Hanover. It was one of my last trips was to Berlin, that’s when I went on crutches, yeah.
AS: Home on three engines, that one?
HH: Was that Berlin?
AS: Yes, 23rd of August. And then you did a Munich and a Hanover. What was Berlin like? Was it special, was it the
HH: Pardon?
AS: Was Berlin perhaps the best defended target? What was Berlin like?
HH: It was the length of the trip really. You know, on heavies, on Lancs and heavies it took us eight and a half hours there and back. What’s it say there? [paper rustling]
AS: Seven hours fifteen, that’s still an incredible time. People talk about eight hour days, and that was a full day’s work at night.
HH: Was a full day’s work was being shot at too.
AS: And, I mean, was Berlin the best defended target, do you think or was that the Ruhr, perhaps?
HH: No, I think, I don’t think it was as bad as the Ruhr but it was, there was plenty of activity there but mainly a lot of fighter activity there over the target, over Berlin.
AS: And you, you could see the enemy?
HH: Oh yeah. They were coned and searchlights one time I was on Mosquitos, there was two Mosquitos, an Fw 190, and an Me 109, all on the same cone.
AS: Wow!
HH: And there is a painting of that somewhere. I described it, you know. And there is a painting somewhere that is called Berlin Express. And [unclear] have got the original.
AS: Okay, I’ll look for that.
HH: [unclear] then.
AS: Okay. Some trips to France as well. Le Creusot. You weren’t after a saucepan factory there were you, what was, can you remember what that trip was about?
HH: Oh yes, that was, they were manufacturing parts for tanks and things, I think.
AS: Gosh, here, after Le Creusot, Muhlheim, home on two engines.
HH: Yeah [laughs]
AS: What’s the story behind that? Did they just pack up or was it flak or?
HH: Yeah, they just packed up on us yeah, these Merlins were you know they were way overstressed on the Halifax and we came back on two on that occasion, yeah.
AS: After a lot of, after the Hamburgs that we talked about and Berlin, Munich. Now, can you remember that trip? September ’43 to Munich.
HH: Yeah.
AS: First off, first back, in your log book, eight hours, fifty five minutes. Did the stream hold together, the bomber stream hold together over these long distances?
HH: Yeah, you we were all given certain times, you know, you had to be at certain times on all the way along the track, at the various turning points, you know. And I think it did help, you know, no doubt about it and then with the advent of Window of course, it just threw their ground tracking, we had a little device, did I tell you, a little device called Boozer in Mosquitos.
AS: No, you didn’t, no.
HH: We had a little device which, when they were tracking you from the ground, a little yellow light used to glow. But when they were tracking from the air, a red light used to glow. And one night, we were coming back, and somewhere around about the Hamburg, sorry the Bremen Hanover gap, and this red light came on very bright and we knew the red light meant we were being tracked from the air you see. And then suddenly over the top of us, about the height of this building, just came two, I think they were Me 263s,
AS: The jets?
HH: The jets, yeah. Right over the top of us. And they didn’t see us. I got a photograph of a Mosquito somewhere I don’t know what she’s done with it now. I meant to ask her that when she was in last night.
AS: No worries, maybe today. So, this, the 262s had the speed, they were the only ones with the speed to catch you, really.
HH: Yes. They were doing about a hundred knots faster than us. Fifty to a hundred knots faster than us. And they just sailed over the top of us and disappeared in the distance. There were four jets, two of them.
AS: So they had radar airborne in the jets.
HH: Yes.
AS: That is a pretty dangerous development, isn’t it? That was another one of your nine lives gone, really, wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Your slices of luck. Back to your first tour, you, when did you come off ops?
HH: I went to a conversion unit, at a place called Wombleton.
AS: Okay, was that Stirlings?
HH: No, it was Halifaxes actually but.
AS: Okay.
HH: Canadian group, they are mainly on Halifaxes.
AS: In 6 Group, how did you get on with the Canadians?
HH: Not very well.
AS: Really?
HH: No. They are very, they didn’t want to know us, you know, they just wanted to get rid of us as quickly as they could.
AS: I’ve heard this that they were running,
HH: They wanted to run their own show.
AS: [unclear] as part of the Canadian.
HH: I remember getting one crew and I said, I wanted to send them back for further training because the navigator was absolutely hopeless. He really was, he couldn’t, it was like putting, I don’t know, he was thick as two planks, he couldn’t. So, I said if you’re sending this crew with this navigator they don’t stand a chance of getting through, not a chance at all. They’ll be shot down on, within their first five operations, they’ll be shot down.
AS: And do you know whether that came to pass?
HH: No. They didn’t like this, you know, the fact that I’d criticised one of their Canadian crews and I was posted down to 3 Group and, which suited me, and the crew got to squadron, got to a squadron and they did one trip and got hopelessly lost and I heard it afterwards that the CO of the, I think it was Lane, what was his name? Lane. He said, what the hell are you doing sending us crews that are, they should have been send back for further training. And I had recommended that.
AS: Had you been commissioned by this point?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: I was commissioned at the end of my first tour, I think.
AS: What sort of process what that? How did that take place?
HH: Pardon?
AS: How did, what sort of process what that? How did that take place?
HH: I just had an interview, I don’t know, who I had an interview with now, I can’t remember. And I mean after the interview I was then a pilot officer but I was a flight sergeant before and my pay was sixteen shillings a day as a flight sergeant but as a pilot officer I was only going to get fourteen and four pence a day. So they said, oh, we can’t have that so they gave me a six pence rise, six pence a day rise so I was getting fourteen and six a day as a pilot officer. And then eventually when I was a flight lieutenant after a couple of years, I was out in India by that time, and I got, well I was on Indian rates of pay anyway so, it didn’t factor.
AS: Back to the instructing. You finished an operational tour, had some leave and presumably your crew dispersed.
HH: Yeah. Pilot went to Rufforth converting many French Canadians and to go to Elvington, French, I mean French crews rather, French crews to go to Elvington, to 77 Squadron.
AS: Did you keep in touch with any of your crew members after?
HH: I came up to York a couple of times and met Sam, Jackie Miles I used to see and my gunner and Harry [unclear] the, the last time I’ve heard from him, he was up at near Shrewsbury.
AS: You all went to instructors jobs, do you?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did they teach how to be an instructor or did they just send you off?
HH: No, I just went in and just talked to them and told them where they were going wrong, you know, and how to waste time and things like that.
AS: In the air this is.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, did you do any formal classroom training of these chaps or was it just, what, supervising in the air and on the ground?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Supervising?
HH: Yeah, just going through their logs and charts individually with them and showing them where they’d gone wrong.
AS: And I believe the same sort of thing used to happen on ops, that when you came back your nav leader would go through your charts, is that right?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: They’d assess your, that’s the assessment on each one there.
AS: That we saw before.
HH: The little design on his wall, Charlie had, he had sort of a little square beside each one of you and you had two dots for very good, one dot for reasonably good, no dots at all for
AS: Average.
HH: Just average. Yeah.
AS: That’s his way of keeping track. So, on 3 Group, is this when you went to Stirlings? When you were training?
HH: Pardon?
AS: When you left the Canadians and went to 3 Group, that was, what was that, Stirlings, was that the Conversion Unit there?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Yeah, it’s down at Chedburgh.
AS: Okay.
HH: And, yeah, Chedburgh, near Bury St Edmunds. There was a beer drought down at that time and we used to cycle miles to find a pub with beer [laughs]. Then we’d keep very quiet about it [laughs].
AS: It’s not too bad.
HH: Me and a Canadian called Connors and we wanted to, we’d heard about that 8 Group wanted Mosquito pilots and navigators, so, we both applied to go, we both applied to go back on ops together. So, our first application, we were turned down because, being in 3 Group on Stirlings, you know, they were rather short of crews, and so we were turned down anyway. So we waited a couple of weeks and we applied again and we got turned down again. So that night, I got a tin of black paint from the stores and I wrote a message, a letter on the ceiling of the mess to the group captain, quite a polite letter, would you kindly pull your finger out and get us posted back on ops. We’re fed up with this instructing so could we please get back in so and so and signed it Connor and Hughes. The following day we were up in front of the old man and he said, ‘Right, you’re both going back, no way you’re going on the same crew or on the same squadron. In fact, you go back first, Hughes. Connor will follow you in about two- or three-weeks’ time.’ And this is what happened.
AS: It’s amazing. So you weren’t actually instructing for very long, were you?
HH: No, from October until July, so I suppose six months.
AS: Okay.
HH: And you’re supposed to have six months, at least six months rest, you know? From operations. Between tours.
AS: Okay. And then, in July having arranged your own posting really, you arrive at 1655 MCU. What’s MCU?
HH: Mosquito conversion unit.
AS: Okay.
HH: At Warboys, yeah, and Weston [?].
AS: I imagine this must have been a completely different sort of navigating. Was it?
HH: Oh, just very quick, but you, you wouldn’t think it now but I was very, very neat and tidy in what I did. I knew exactly, I used to keep my pencils in my flying boots, my dividers as well, [unclear] my Douglas protractor I kept in my hat with my dividers, which was behind me and my Dalton and, and then we used to take as your [unclear] fix, as soon as you got airborne, you got to operational high I’d take fix, fix, fix, every three minutes, then work out a tracking ground speed wind velocity and then another three minutes later another fix, a nine minute tracking ground velocity plus the sixth, the latest sixth one and another one, further on, six, and I can tell you exactly which way the wind was going, how far out the met was on their winds.
AS: And these fixes would be visual fixes or Gee fixes or both?
HH: Gee fixes.
AS: Gee fixes.
HH: So I’d take fix, fix, fix, you worked really hard to get the timing, you know, of the.
AS: Whereabouts was the Gee screen in the aeroplane? You were sitting on the right in the [unclear]
HH: I was sitting on the right and the Gee was behind me and LORAN as well.
AS: Okay. So.
HH: Gee and LORAN which was behind me.
AS: So, could you operate the equipment with your harnesses done up?
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: ‘Cause you just turned your head and⸻
HH: I just turned my head. It was just like there, behind me, there, but I could turn easier then and it was there, you know, just behind about there, about that angle to me.
AS: And it is just, as you say, second nature, three minutes, three minutes.
HH: It didn’t take long to take the fix but it took a long time but we, we had charts with the letters, lines of the Gee chart superimposed on top of it. So, this really worked very well.
AS: So, what came up on the Gee screen? What allowed you to compare the screen to the map?
HH: Pardon?
AS: What was the presentation on the Gee screen? What actually came up? Was it numbers or?
HH: Yeah. Well, you just, you could, you worked out, you knew what, you strobed the whichever signal you wanted to take, you know, and then you, you strobed the two of them and then fix and then you just read it off.
AS: I guess it’s, so you gotta an alphanumerical printout did you virtually.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Wow. So that could be done quickly.
HH: It’s quite, it’s very quick to work it all out, yeah, to work it out to get, to actually calculate the winds on your Dalton.
AS: How did you operate at night, because I imagine you had no lights in the cockpit?
HH: Well, we had enough.
AS: Okay.
HH: We had a red light and then, what’s his name? Anderson, our group navigation officer, he found that red, you couldn’t see the red markings on your chart. So, that was all orange and green.
AS: Which was easier to see.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. So, when you’d done your Mosquito conversion unit or at the Mosquito conversion unit, you must have crewed up with a pilot, how did that go?
HH: Well, I had already wanted to fly with this Australian so, when this New Zealander came along, I thought, he’ll do, I crewed up with him.
AS: As simple as that. And did you do, did the aeroplane Mosquito take some getting used to it, so different from a heavy bomber, with different performance and.
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: What was she like to fly in?
HH: It was nice and reasonably fast. And I don’t think you really noticed it until you were doing some low flying.
AS: Shall we take a pause there? Okay. [recording paused]
HH: The Mosquito was, it was terribly difficult for a navigator to get out of.
AS: Why was that?
HH: Well, you had to, first of all you had to get hold of your chute and you kept that on, then you had to jettison two hatches to get out,
AS: Underneath.
HH: Underneath, yeah. Slightly forward towards the nose, yeah. And but by which time your pilot probably gone out of the top and you were spiralling down and the chance of you getting out was pretty slim.
AS: This hatch underneath must have been very close to the starboard propeller.
HH: Yes, we, yeah. Yes, it was quite close, yeah.
AS: Did you practice this on the ground a lot?
HH: No. I don’t think they thought you were, it was worth the risk. But the, a friend of mine used to fly with a man called Gill and he went down, got killed, Ronnie Knaith went down with his aircraft, and Gill got out and came home and he went to see Ronnie’s parents and they just slammed the door in his face, they wouldn’t talk to him. ‘Cause they had thought that he’d should have stayed onto the controls until Ronnie got out. Which is really what one was supposed to do.
AS: I hadn’t realised that the drill for the pilot was to go out of the top.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Because there’s a tailfin behind.
HH: Yeah, you jettison, you jettison the hood I think, the whole hood went. And theoretically the navigator could’ve gone out after him, I suppose, but.
AS: I think overall the losses were less on the Mosquito.
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: I think you were safer flying in a Mozzie than in a Halifax.
HH: Yes, I mean, there’s somewhere I got the losses in Hamish’s book, in Hamish Mahaddie’s book, all the losses in 8 Group and you will see that 692 do feature quite regularly, you know.
AS: Yeah, so you were posted to 692 Squadron after the conversion unit. You’d had, I suppose, eight months away from ops by then, ten months, had things changed a lot in that time?
HH: I don’t think they’d changed all that much for the heavies, no. And we operated separately and we used to do Window opening for the heavies, we used to do, we used to fly out with the heavies and used to meet up with them at Reading, they’d all congregated there, what’s that? There is something squeaking, did you hear?
AS: I don’t know, let’s pause the tape.[recording paused] Well, Harry, we discovered what the squeak was, it was the smoke alarm. We were talking about Window opening and you meeting the heavies over Reading.
HH: Yeah. We used to fly down with the and meet up with the heavies and then we’d weave in and out of them, stream, you know, and you could see the strength of the stream then because, you know, there was just a whole block of them all over the horizon.
AS: And these are daylights.
HH: Yeah, in daylight, yeah, it would be. And then somebody in one of the heavies would be signalling to us, you lucky bastards or words to that effect. So I was sent back, been there, done that [laughs].
AS: Fair do’s. Because you could fly a lot faster and a lot higher than they could.
HH: Well, we used to be, weave in and out of them, you see. And then, then when you got to the coast, you climbed very rapidly above and you got to your operational height. If we were going to say, if we were Window opening say for Stuttgart, we’d probably do a, you go to Cologne first and drop a few bundles of Window there making them, making them think that was the target, you see. And then we’d go along to wherever, Stuttgart, and where the main force were going, and we’d, we’d do Window opening for the first wave of Pathfinders going in.
AS: Okay. This was the, was this the main role of 692 Squadron?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Was this the main role of 692 Squadron?
HH: Yeah, well, we were the light night striking force, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: But our main role was to bomb Berlin every night.
AS: Oh, you were involved in this Berlin shuttle?
HH: Yes. So, we used to drop our cookie, we used to drop Window for the heavies and then we’d go along to Berlin and drop our four thousand pounders, keep them awake.
AS: Ah, so, did you have those special Mosquitos then?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Those with the pregnant bomb bay?
HH: That one there, isn’t it?
AS: Yes. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, who got to drop the bomb? Was it you or the driver?
HH: Me.
AS: You.
HH: Yeah. Unless we were doing low level. And even then it was me up on the front, up in the nose.
AS: How did you, how did you drop Window from a tiny little aeroplane like Mosquito?
HH: We had a chute, little wooden chute which used to go through the two doors and we just dropped bundles of Window through that. Remember to grab the string as it went down, otherwise you’d just drop bundles [laughs].
AS: You don’t want them falling on someone’s head and hurting them, do you?
HH: No [laughs]. So, it’s a nice day now, isn’t it?
AS: It’s wonderful out there. It’s great. So, sometimes you were operating with the main bomber stream and sometimes as 8 Group by yourself or squadron by yourself?
HH: Individually, yeah.
AS: Individually too?
HH: We used to fly, we used to sing, I made up, there was a song going round at that time sung by Hildegard, I walk alone, to tell you the truth I’ll be lonely, I don’t mind being lonely, when my heart tells me you are lonely too. So, I made up the words for our squadron, we fly alone, when all the heavies are grounded and dining, 692 will be climbing, we still press on, it’s every night, though they never will give us a French route, for the honour of 8 Group, we’ll still press on.
AS: That’s fantastic.
HH: It’s always a [unclear] no matter how far, one bomb is slung beneath, it’s twelve degrees east, one engine at least [laughs]. It’s a pretty horrible little song.
AS: it’s brilliant. It sums up what you felt.
HH: Not as good as some of the songs, you see, erks used to make up in India and down in Burma, you know. One they used to sing, rotting in the jungle, on a [unclear] marshy shores, dysentery, malaria and bags of jungle sores, living around in a bloody great heap, our beds are damp, we cannot sleep, we’re going round the corner, we’re going round the bend, two trips to Meiktila, maybe three or four, AOL’s a keen type, he thinks we’re doing more. When we get back as you can guess, we’ll put this effing kite US [laughs] and we’re going round the, and there’s about two more verses to that, I can’t remember, that’s when the mail arrives, and there’s two for you and f.a. for me you know [laughs].
AS: I think we will have to try and get you a recording contract. This could be an excellent CD on the wireless.
HH: I don’t think they’d allow it to be broadcast.
AS: Probably not, probably not. But see, you, it sounds as you had very high morale on the squadron.
HH: Oh yeah. But, yes, this was when I was on ferrying.
AS: And on 692, as you say, opening with Window and then lots and lots of trips to
HH: Berlin.
AS: To Berlin. Did you ever get involved in a double trip, I believe some people, some crews did two trips to Berlin in one night.
HH: Yeah, we did, on one occasion we did. I think we did Duisburg in the morning and Berlin that night. Came back, and refuelled and bombed up again and we were away again.
AS: There must have been, I would expect, a cumulative tiredness at that level of operations. I’ve seen your ops on your second tour are very close together.
HH: Yeah.
AS: First of October, third, fourth, fifth, two on the fifth, very, very very close together and then Berlin followed the next night by Cologne. Did you, were you conscious of getting tired?
HH: Well, no, because when you’re off, you went into town and into Cambridge and I met up with my girlfriend and she was lovely, my girlfriend, I must have a picture of her, I did have a picture. She was beautiful, she was lovely red hair and creamy skin, you know, and green eyes, oh, she was beautiful. I used to walk down the street with her and everybody would stop and stare, at her, not at me [laughs].
AS: I was going to ask that. And you met her when you joined the squadron?
HH: When I joined 692, yeah. Yeah, we were walking, you remember, do you remember the Red Lion in Cambridge?
AS: I don’t know Cambridge well. I know where the airfield is.
HH: There used to be a passage where you could go through, you’d start off in the Baron of Beef, down by the river there and, and then you go from there to the Bun Shop and to get to the Bun Shop you have to walk through the Red Lion right, right the way through there, the foyer, there is a bar, two bars there and when I walked through there one night, there was Red sitting there with two of her friends and as I walked through, I said, ‘Cor’ to who I was with and I caught red hair and no drawers, and I said, ‘I’m in’ [laughs]. And she followed me through to the Bun Shop and that’s how I met up with her [laughs].
AS: Excellent. Probably best not pursue that story too much further, I think. So, you’ve got here on a trip to Berlin, landed Woodbridge. Now⸻
HH: Yeah.
AS: I know that Woodbridge is one of the emergency landing grounds.
HH: Yeah, well we, very often we had to land, when we took S-Sugar, which is a bloody awful aircraft with a terrible fuel consumption, if we took that to Berlin, we would end up, always end up landing short of fuel at Woodbridge. In fact, one night, when Harris was on this station, we were the only squadron operating that night, so he came to our briefing. [phone ringing]
AS: I’ll pause there. So, after the phone call, we were talking about S-Sugar and its ability to drink fuel.
HH: Yeah, on this night Harris was at the and [unclear] Northrop, our CO was reading out the battle order, you know, and he said, came to, flying officer Mormo, S-Sugar, ‘S-Sugar?’ said Roy, ‘What’s wrong with our Robert?’ ‘Well, that’s got a mark drop on the starboard engine, you’re going to have to take the spare.’ ‘But S f for Sugar, sir, that bloody kite flies like a brick shithouse!’ [laughs] and old Harris was standing there, and he was trying his best not to laugh, you know, his moustache had a twitch and [laughs] you could he’s gonna laugh every minute, you know. But he didn’t, he held it in [laughs]
AS: What was Woodbridge like? Is an emergency landing ground very different from a normal airfield?
HH: Oh yeah, you, huts with the roof off, you know, half off and snow would come in, on a snowy night, yeah.
AS: Not finished?
HH: No, they had just blown off. That’s a nuisance that thing, isn’t it?
AS: Your smoke alarm, yeah. As we got to this time or you got to this time in the war, this was late 1944.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Had the scene changed in terms of aids to navigation, things like Sandra lights and Darky and ground organisation, was there a lot to help you?
HH: [unclear] Much on the ground I think, mainly H2S, Oboe, things like that, you know. And G8, wasn’t it? G8.
AS: G-H, yeah. I didn’t, I don’t know how that worked, I never had that but we were quite content with LORAN. In fact, I got a wind over, going down to, I forget where I was going, Berlin I suppose, but yeah, we were going over to Berlin I think and I got a wind just north of the Ruhr, a hundred and ninety five knots.
AS: Wow!
HH: And what we’d done, we hit a jet stream, you see, and but when I came back, I said to the met man, I got a wind of a hundred, impossible, impossible, impossible, and it went to Group and Group said impossible as well, went to Command and Command said impossible well then when everybody started to get them, they suddenly realised there was something in this jet stream. Now they talk about nothing else but the bloody jet stream and it annoys me that because they ignored their existence during the war, the met people did and we kept telling them, look there is something up there and it didn’t last very long, you see, you were in it and then you were out of it, you know. So you couldn’t use it as a general wind to carry on to Berlin, shall we say for example, and nor could you use it when you were coming back. You might hit it again but it’d be in a different place slightly and.
AS: It must have meant that you had to be on your toes with your fixes all the time.
HH: Yeah. Anyway we,
AS: In your logbook, it suddenly goes from duty as nav to duty nav b. What was the significance of?
HH: Well, I stood in as bomb aimer as well.
AS: Ah, okay, that’s what it was. Tremendous number of operations over the winter of ’44-’45.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So I presume you must have flown in most weather with the nav aids that you had.
HH: Oh yeah, I remember one night, I don’t know if I should say this because it’s a bit derogatory to somebody who’s now dead, and that’s to Don Bennett. He was in the control tower on this particular night and we were getting hoarfrost all along the wings of our, as we taxied out we were getting hoarfrost develop all along the wings, so Roy got onto control and he says, ‘Could we have the de-icing bowsers out, please?’ And Bennett said, ‘Never mind about the de-icing bowser, just get off the deck.’ Well, we didn’t go, we said, ‘No, no. It’s too dangerous.’ Anyway, another aircraft came after us and they ploughed into the end of the runway and they were both killed of course when their bomb blew up. And Bennett never said a word to us afterwards, he was, we came back for briefing that night and he’d left the station. We came back and got the de-icing bowser and got cleared of the hoarfrost. He literally left, you see. And then we went to Berlin that night, I think.
AS: I should think, with fuel and a four thousand pounder you must have needed all the runway to get off.
HH: Yeah, well, there is another tale attached to that, the, you see, we started off with four thousand pounders, I think we were the first squadron to have four thousand pounders, and then they put fifty gallon drop tanks on each wing which were increased eventually to seventy five and then a hundred and then, and then we ran out of four thousand pounders and we had to borrow four thousand pounders from the Americans, which were four and a half thousand pounds. So another five hundred pounds to get off the deck. But the old Mozzie just used to take it all in its stride. No bother.
AS: You had no concerns.
HH: No, and I remember one day when I’d finished tour. I was sitting in the crew room minding my own business and the CO, a Canadian called Bob Grant came in and he said, ‘You doing anything Hughes?’ I said, no. He said, ‘Grab yourself a ‘chute would you and I’ll see you out at the aircraft.’ I said, ‘What do you⸻’ ‘Just bring a local Gee chart and local maps, would you?’ So when I got out to the bay, they were loading a four thousand pounder and I said, ‘Well, what fuel have we got?’ ‘You’ve a got full load of fuel and two hundred gallon drop tanks.’ And there’s a wind blowing right the way down the 330 runway which was fourteen hundred feet or something compared with two thousand feet on the main runway. I said, ‘What are we gonna do then?’ He said, ‘We’re gonna see if we can get off with this wind, the scale blowing, see if we can get off on this, on the fifteen hundred runway.’ So, we got to the end of the runway, and he waited until there was a gust of wind blowing, until the airspeed indicator was indicating about fifty or sixty knots. And we went. And I dropped the cookie on the live bomb target in the Wash and then we came back. And he got a report and said it wasn’t possible. I said, ‘Well, thanks for telling me.’ [laughs] it wasn’t possible. And he said, ‘No, no, no,’ he said, ‘I don’t think the crew, you could expect the whole crew to wait’, the whole squadron rather to wait until there was a lull, that’s turned till there was a gust of wind which would get them off the deck.
AS: It’s a good example of leading from the front though, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Doing the test himself.
HH: It was old Bob Grant, he’s dead now, he married a Yorkshire, he was CO of 105 Squadron, amongst other things and he was, when he got back to Canada, of course he was made up to brigadier, I think. He was a group captain here, so he was a brigadier. That was equivalent to air commodore, wasn’t it?
AS: I think so, yeah, yeah.
HH: I don’t know.
AS: And, ah, there it is Group Captain Grant, 19th of March 1945, bombload take off fourteen hundred yards. That was pretty much the end of your operational flying, I think, wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: On the Mosquito. Last trip, February, February ’45.
HH: Hanover, wasn’t it? Or Hamburg, Hanover.
AS: Frankfurt, I think, Frankfurt in your log. And did you know that that would be your last trip or you’re just told you’re screened?
HH: Yeah. You knew you had to do fifty on Mosquitos. So.
AS: And what did happened after that? Did you go back instructing or?
HH: No, no, we were sent on leave and when we came back, we’d been posted, several crews had been posted down to Pershore to ferry Canadian built Mosquitos across the Atlantic. And I crewed up with a different, Lloyd had gone back to New Zealand and he used to fly with Air New Zealand after the war. And thanks to me, because someone had put a bottle through his hand and all the tendons had gone. And so he couldn’t, when we were taking off at Whiten once doing a cross country, we got airborne and suddenly the throttle went back and he grabbed hold of them and held it with his hand and because you had to keep the throttle up so loose ‘cause of this weakness in his left hand. So I said, ‘I’ll tell you what we’ll do, Roy, from now on I’ll tighten the throttle knot for you when you’re ready. As soon as you want, you just say, throttle knob and I will reach through and grab the throttle knob and turn it and tighten it for you.’ And we did that every trip. And but I, ‘cause I had to reach over, I couldn’t strap in, so I did all my trips without strapping in [laughs]. I never strapped in again, not with Roy flying. So he’d of never, I mean, he was flying with Air New Zealand afterwards he’d never have passed their medical if he’d of disclosed it, you know.
AS: But eventually, not in a Mosquito, but he’d be flying with throttles on the other hand, wouldn’t he? So the problem,
HH: Yeah.
AS: The problem would go away. So you’d had some leave, you were posted to fly to Pershore to fly Mosquitos.
H: Yeah. And we were sent on indefinite leave, Pershore sent us on indefinite leave. And I thought, oh God, I’ll be grounded for sure. So, I got on a train and went up to Air Ministry and saw a wing commander there and I said, look, there is a war going in in the Far East [unclear] aircraft ferried out there, coming back for maintenance and what have you. And he said, what a good idea, you know, come back in the morning, will you? And I got the whole lot posted out to the Far East. Fifteen or eighteen, I think I told you this before, didn’t I?
AS: I think so but we didn’t get in on the tape, I don’t think, no.
HH: No.
AS: I bet you were popular.
HH: Fifteen, oh God, when I got down to Lyneham they were moaning, ‘I’m just due for demob for God’s sake, why the heck do I have to, due for demob any day now.’
AS: I bet you kept quiet.
HH: And here I am, so I kept very quiet. And so, I mean I wasn’t due for demob for some time.
AS: So here we are, Lyneham in July ’45. A huge trip as a passenger on a deck. Thirty two hours flying.
HH: Yeah, back to Karachi, yeah.
AS: So by going, going East, you, did you, before you went, did you see, did you go on any of these trips over, over Germany to see all the destruction?
HH: No, no.
AS: Okay.
HH: I missed all that.
AS: You’d said earlier that you said a prayer for the people of Hamburg. What, at the end of the war, did you reflect at all on the, or during that, on the bombing? And what were your feelings about being involved in it in the war?
HH: Well, I’ve spoken to our vicar about it, you know, and said, do you think Saint Peter’s gonna let me through the gates? Or not. So she sat and he said a prayer for me. Lady vicar of course. Anyway, but I was invited out to Hanover as a guest of the mayor and the local newspaper to commemorate the 60th anniversary of when we bombed them.
AS: And you went?
HH: So I went over, yeah, well, I was asked to volunteer and I remember, at the Bomber Command meeting they said, did anybody go to Hanover, I said, well, I did. When I got home, I found out I’d been to Hanover about eleven times and [laughs] so I was well qualified.
AS: And are you pleased you went, did it turn out well?
HH: Yes, they were very, very, very nice, I like German people.
AS: So do I.
HH: I got two of them coming over now. Here any day now. I think. They stay up at [unclear] castle, ‘cause he’s paraplegic, he can’t get down my steps.
AS: Yeah.
HH: He’s, he had polio when he was a youngster. But they come over by air this time so he couldn’t bring his invalid scooter with him so I don’t know whether he’s gonna hire one when they’re here or not, I don’t know what they’re gonna do to get around.
AS: That should be possible, I think.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And these are friends you made when you went to Hanover?
HH: Yeah. Well, they were both reporters with the Hamburger Allgemeine. And anyway I was, the last day I was there in Hanover I was there for about three or four days, I had to attend a meeting of all the survivors from the raids and all the students from university there and the colleges and what have you and a little girl gets up and question time you see and she gets up and says, can I please explain what was the duty of the navigator? Well if you ask me a stupid question like that, I’m gonna give you a stupid answer, for sure. So I said, ‘Well, the reason why we carried a navigator, because we had to have someone on board who could read and write’ [laughs] and their mouths fell open, he went like this, everybody, so I said to my interpreter, I said, ‘Tell them, it was a joke, will you?’ ‘Ah, a joke, yeah, we got no sense of humour, we Germans, we’ve got no sense of humour at all.’ [unclear] So then, later on somebody, one of the survivors said, ‘Why did you bomb the city?’ So I said, ‘To be perfectly honest, we couldn’t hit anything smaller but just remember this,’ I said, ‘Right in the centre, almost within half a mile from the centre of Hanover there was the biggest rubber factory in Germany, so it made Hanover a very legitimate target.’ ‘Yes’, this man says, ‘But you didn’t hit it, did you? ‘Cause it’s still there!’ [laughs]. I said, ‘Well, and you tried to tell me that the Germans got no sense of humour?’ [laughs] And then I was on their side from then on.
AS: I’ve lived there for eleven years. I’m with you. I’ve lived there for eleven years.
HH: Have you?
AS: Yeah. They’re great people, great people. I think.
HH: In which part were you?
AS: I was in Munich for five years.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And then in Bonn and Cologne, in the Rhineland for about six altogether. Some of the places you visited by air, in fact. That’s the feelings of the Germans. How, there’s been a lot of controversy about how Bomber Command were treated after the war. Have you got any views on that?
HH: Well, I think, first of all, we should never, never have bombed Dresden, I think that was the biggest mistake we made. And Portal should have stood up and said, no! But he didn’t have the guts to do it, he didn’t have the guts to stand up to Churchill and it was Churchill who, on his way to Yalta, he stopped off at Malta, And they’d agreed to bomb five cities within reach of the Russian lines, you know, and I think Dresden was one and what’s that? And Leipzig and one other I think. Anyway he sent back this signal to Portal saying, from Malta saying, where is my spectacular, get on with it. So, Portal looked at the charts and he consulted the Met people and the only target available that night was Dresden. I didn’t go to Dresden, I went to Magdeburg, Magdeburg that night, you can see it on there, in that book there.
AS: You believe it was, that Dresden was the turning point and that?
HH: Mh?
AS: You believe that Dresden was some sort of turning point?
HH: Yeah.
AS: How Bomber Command were treated?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did you, do you feel now that it’s changed with the memorials and the clasp?
HH: Yeah, I think so. I think, there was a time just after the war, when the people who were against us were the people who were in the Air Force or in one of the forces and they felt that we were, they didn’t want us to have any publicity, you know.
AS: After the war.
HH: Yeah. And then, and then since then, they’ve suddenly realised that you know, we had the highest losses of any unit in the, our forces, fifty five thousand killed, which is quite a lot, wasn’t it?
AS: Yeah. Fifty five thousand, five hundred and seventy three.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And you’ve seen a, well, or you see a change in attitudes now.
HH: Yes, I think, younger people are much more inclined to want to hear about it and talk about it and understand why we did it and there is no good saying, well, we were under orders to do it, because that’s what the Germans excuses were, you know, for their treatment of the in the concentration camps. We were under orders.
AS: And you did it because it was right?
HH: Well, we did it because we thought we were, ‘cause we were shortening the war and therefore less people would be killed.
AS: Is it, I agree, you say, that now people want to hear about it, is it good for you and other veterans to be able to talk about it after all this time?
HH: It’s getting more and more difficult, there’s so many books have been written on there, now.
AS: And you are actually in one of the books.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Steve Darlow’s book. How did all that come about? Did you get involved with him?
HH: I don’t know. He wanted, I think I was recommended by probably Bomber Command, you know, Dougie Radcliffe.
AS: Oh, the Bomber Command Association.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Have you always played a big part in that?
HH: No, no, I was mainly in the Pathfinders Association.
AS: Oh, okay.
HH: We were separate from, we were separate from the Bomber Command Association, but I’d already joined the Bomber Command Association when we disbanded. I’d already been a member for several years.
AS: And do you belong to your squadron or 102 Squadron association as well?
HH: Yeah. Yes, it’s, I’ve written a letter to, when I went to the VJ-Day celebrations⸻
AS: Yes.
HH: We had to fill out a form travelling expenses and I got three hundred pounds from the Lottery Fund.
AS: Excellent.
HH: And my son Jeremy, who’d driven me up there and then he got three hundred pounds as well. And I don’t, I hope he hasn’t. So I wrote a letter to the Big Lottery and said, thanking them for their, I said, so, twice a year I’ve got to go to, up to Pocklington in Yorkshire, which is rather expensive for me now ‘cause you got to go up Virgin cross country you know, right the way up to York and it’s a long journey that. It’s an interesting journey but there’s no, there was a little old lady pushing the tray along, pushing the trolley along, you know, that’s all that you get to eat with some coffee and a fruitcake or something.
AS: It’s not the same as a full dining car.
HH: I like the dining cars on, I’m going up on the 22nd of October I think, coming back on the 23rd, I always travel back down on the dining car which, on a train with a dining car which leaves at seven o’clock in the evening.
AS: Do you still have wartime comrades that you’ll meet in Pocklington?
HH: Oh yes, yeah. Most of them are dead now but.
AS: So, a lot of reminiscing and’
HH: Yeah. There’s a friend of mine, who was a previous chairman, Tom Wingate, who, he wrote a book called Halifax Down, ‘cause he was shot down on his second tour, and I used to have a copy but I can’t find it now. I don’t know what I have done with it, I lose things all the time now.
AS: I have a copy at home, I can send you one.
HH: Pardon?
AS: I have a copy, I can send you one.
HH: You got a copy of that?
AS: Yeah, I have.
HH: Halifax Down, yes, it’s not a bad book, actually. Except that he joined the squadron the same time as I did, his crew did. And he’s quoted in his book, as if he was there three or four months before me. He’s quoted various trips and he’s got these out of those old war diaries, wish I could find that. I wonder where I put it?
AS: Well, you’ll have to take your logbook the next time you meet him.
HH: Oh no, he’s dead now.
AS: Okay.
HH: That’s why I’ve taken over as chairman.
AS: After you came off ops, you did this trip out to the Far East, did you then get involved in ferrying aeroplanes?
HH: In what?
AS: Did you then get involved in ferrying aeroplanes?
HH: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: It’s quite a lot really. My very first trip was down to Akyab, on the Arakan coast. I think I told you, didn’t I?
AS: Yes, but not into the tape. So, what happened on that trip?
HH: I don’t think that particular trip’s in there, actually, I looked for it the other day and I can’t find it. I must have left it out for some reason.
AS: This was the trip with the Japanese.
HH: Yes, all the way around us were Zeros, you know. We could hear them yacketing away and then this Indian crew comes on with their Hurricanes and the Japanese just disappeared.
AS: What was the radio conversation about with these Indian squadrons, red flight?
HH: Pardon?
AS: What was the radio conversation story about the?
HH: Oh, well, the Indian crews? ‘Yes, red leader to yellow leader, how do you read me, over? Yellow leader to green, you are not red, you are green, you know? Red leader to yellow leader, I am not green, I am red. And this Aussie voice comes up by the blue, you are black, you bastard’ [laughs].
AS: So, it’s still a combat area that you’re flying replacement aircraft I suppose in to the squadrons?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did you get involved in flying damaged aircraft for repair?
HH: Oh, I used to fly back from say Kamila or with two Pratt & Whitney’s engines in the back and a load of ENSA girls as well amongst them [laughs], sitting where they could and trying not to get greasy, ‘cause these, and yeah.
AS: Yeah. Shall we, pause there I think?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And wind it up. Thank you that, It’s been absolutely wonderful to hear.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harry Hughes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Sutch
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHughesWH151021
Format
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02:28:15 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Hughes volunteered for the Royal Air Force in 1940 and trained in America, where he was washed out as a pilot and then retrained as a navigator in Canada, flying Ansons and Wellingtons. In 1942 he converted to Halifaxes and flew operations with 102 Squadron over Germany, being awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal for flying an operation to Berlin whilst on crutches. He recounts the routines of preparing to go on operations and his use of navigation aids including Gee, LORAN and later, Boozer in Mosquitos. He was bombstruck twice during operations. He completed 26 operations including the bombing of Hamburg which he describes as a firestorm and recalls saying a private prayer for the people of Hamburg below. After his tour finished, he then instructed before applying to go back on operations with 8 Group, flying Mosquitos with 692 Squadron and dropping Window for Pathfinder forces in 1944/45. In 2004 he visited Hanover and discussed the raids with survivors of the war. He was a member of a number of post war service associations and kept in contact with his crewmates.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Southeast Asia
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
United States
Alabama--Montgomery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1944
1945
102 Squadron
3 Group
6 Group
692 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Anson
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
briefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
faith
Fw 190
Gee
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
incendiary device
Ju 88
Me 109
Me 110
Me 262
medical officer
meteorological officer
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
Portal, Charles (1893-1971)
promotion
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Harwell
RAF Riccall
RAF Wombleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/894/11134/AHyndC171115.2.mp3
7703d85d1a928e6d8f6c63dd70ebb3c6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hynd, Colin
C Hynd
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Colin Hynd (1925 - 2022, 1825158 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 158 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hynd, C
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JS: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jim Sheach the interviewee is Colin Hynd. The interview is taking place at Mr Hynd’s home in Dunfermline on the 15th November 2017. Colin, thanks for agreeing to be interviewed. Could you tell me a little about your life before you joined the RAF?
CH: Well, I went to the local schools, obviously commercial school and Queen Anne’s school, and when I left school at the age of fourteen just at the beginning of the war in September 1939, I got a job in the local cinema because jobs in those days were extremely hard to find. My wage was six shillings and eight pence per week, anyway, I only lasted there a month and I went on and got two subsequent jobs in the local gents outfitters, but that wasn’t satisfying me so I went to Todds Engineers in Dunfermline and became an apprentice turner, where I did turning until 1943 when I joined the Royal Air Force, but as I was underage at the time I had to wait until I was eighteen and a quarter which was in the November of 1943, when I was called up, and went to Lord‘s Cricket Ground for various tests and what have you, and we- We did three weeks in London being kitted out, medical-ed, the usual, uniforms and what have you, and then from there went on up to Bridlington to the initial training wing up there, and did six weeks up there, doing various signalling, gunnery, of course drill and all that, and then from there, after the six weeks went to St Athans, where we did the, the flight engineers training. Unfortunately, during my early days there I developed scarlet fever, so of course I was in hospital for a month, and when I came out my actual course had moved on that far, anyway [emphasis] I carried on, various entries and anybody that was available to do the thing where you studied engines, air frames, electrics, meteorology, gunnery again of course they just - Dismantling the guns and that, education of course was a big thing in those days as well but, eventually after, something like nine months, I was awarded my stripes and my brevet, my flight engineer’s brevet. After being awarded my stripes and my brevet I was posted to a heavy conversion unit at Marston Moor which is in Yorkshire, where you then actually were working on the real aircraft which were Halifaxes. You then saw what you’d only previously seen on a blackboard, and you did that for approximately two weeks, and as well as that of course you could go get a bit of experience on a crew who were doing a night exercise or, air tests, anything like that that was available, but I didn’t get crewed up, for about three weeks at that time. Anyway, the crew that I joined, unfortunately, they all drank and I didn’t, and I wasn’t very popular because of course I didn’t go out drinking, so the pilot at that time, told the engineer’s leader that I was no use as a flight engineer. Anyway I was duly called into the office, where I was interviewed for approximately four hours over engineer- Flight engineer matters, the subsequent outcome was that I was given the job of teaching the new recruits from St Athans, the pre-flight checks, how to start the engines, how to operate the, the petrol levers and all, all that, from when they came from training school, so of course, the outcome of that was that after some weeks, I was told that- What had happened, and why I’d been removed from the crew and that, I would be offered a commission when I got to the squadron, unfortunately the war finished before we got to that stage in my career [slightly laughs], however, they – The, the aircrew without the engineer, because, people trained at different places, but all came together at the HCU, without the flight engineer because up till then they had been flying in two-engined aircraft to teach them the art of gunnery or navigation or whatever, but then when they went onto the four-engined aircraft, like the Halifax, the Lancaster, Sunderlands, they needed a flight engineer. Anyway there was a bit of a shortage at the time so I was posted to Riccall which was near Selby, where I carried on doing the same thing, teaching the newer lads the pre-flight checks and all that sort of thing and then eventually they had an intake of crews, and in those days, the crews plus the flight engineers were put into this room and the wing commander flying, then gave a lecture but this was just a ploy so that the crews could see who the flight engineers were. Anyway I was approached by one of the crew members, Johnny Prosser, who was the wireless op in this crew which were Canadian, anyway I decided to, to join them, as their flight engineer, so from there on in, I, I did the flying experience which I’d learnt prior to this on my own, I didn’t need anybody with me obviously, so that er- We did air tests, short daylight runs, a lot of night flying, because the pilot of course being new to the four engine bomber always had a pilot with him who had had experience, so of course no aircraft could take off without a flight engineer anyway [emphasis] because it was too complicated where - What you had to do as a flight engineer, so that - We then eventually moved onto the squadron, 158 which was an operational squadron, they had had a terrific loss, of personnel, they had- We had New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians, RAF and it was a mixed squadron really, but the flight engineers of course no matter which crew you joined were always RAF, because that was the only place that trained engineers was St Athans, from then on it was just basically doing exercises and that until somebody decided you should go on a bombing trip. When that happened, you were all gathered together, into this building which was secured with armed police surrounding it so that you couldn’t get out [laughs] or the phones were cut off, you couldn’t make a phone call and you sat in this building waiting for someone to come in and remove the curtain from what the target was going to be, you were then shown the target and you were explained the, the route you would take to the target, the route out, the weather that you would meet, where the opposition was heaviest with gunfire, or fighters, things like that was all in- And then it could well happen that halfway through all this, they would decide to change the target so you then had to wait until your new target was announced which could take ages, then they would start again having looked at this new target route and the way in. Again you couldn’t go anywhere, you were, you were all right for a cup of tea [chuckles] but that was about it, and on one occasion they changed the target on three occasions, so - But again it was the old thing, just sit and wait, and wait for the people to tell you what the weather was going to be, or what the target was, the route out, the route in, because you never came back the same way, and of course it was extremely dangerous if you were on night flying because you could have anything from a thousand to fifteen-hundred aircraft in the air at any given time, and of course nobody, or very few ever stuck to the speed they were supposed to be flying at, or the height they were supposed to be flying at, because you were given a height, your squadron would fly at, say twenty-thousand feet but then behind you five-minutes later should be another squadron at nineteen-thousand-five-hundred, and they were supposed to step down like that with the gap in between, so you stopped this overflying which of course it never did because, you could be on your run up to your target, and of course you’d suddenly look up and five-hundred feet above you you’d see a bomber with its bomb doors open, so of course they couldn’t see you, so you had to abort and, well either just carry on or go round which was an extremely dangerous thing to do when you’re turning a full circle in that number of aircraft, but our pilot being a Canadian did exactly that one night, not very popular pilot [chuckles]. Anyway we had to do the run up again, and of course all the time, people are shooting at you, and once that stops you know - You then knew the fighters were up, so you had to watch for them, also of course you had the problem with searchlights, now, when you got a group of searchlights, one of them was blue, and that was the master searchlight and once that got you all the other searchlights hooked on, and of course then the gunners, or the fighters whichever was at the time, then attacked that one aircraft and, that was an extremely dangerous situation. But during the war also of course we had the problem that we had the Americans flying with us, not on the same squadron, but on their squadrons, and they used to join in, they would never fly at night the Americans, at all, but during the day the Flying Fortresses were out in force, which made life even more difficult, because they were rather prone to shoot at you if you- If they, didn’t realise and especially we had one sort of, a new Halifax which was unmarked, we didn’t have the RAF roundels on it and we were a bit frightened that the Americans would shoot us because it was a known fact that if any of our aircraft was shot down in Germany or France, then they were redone and they- The Germans flew them.
JS: Mm-hm.
CS: The other thing of course was that - I forgot to mention, that was before we got to the squadron, when we were at the heavy conversion unit, they- If there was an op on, we at the HCU would be sent in the opposite direction to the bomber force with the object being to draw the fighters, of cou- [laughs] of course the unfortunate part about that was that we never had any ammunition to shoot at the fighters because it was in short supply, but you, you did it and- Best as you could, but, I mean it was just a small force but the i- As I say, the idea was to draw the fighters away from the main force so that they could get a free run at whatever the target was. But anyway once you got to- As I say to the point of where you [emphasis] were actually operating on a, a raid, then of course it was every man for himself, and we unfortunately lost our rear gunner, not through injury or anything like that but, there was two types of fire, there was a projected gunfire and a box gunfire, the projected gunfire was that you could see the rounds coming up behind you and obviously if you stayed at the same height the gunners got your height and then it was just a question of getting closer to you, and of course the rear gunner could see this and I could see it because I was watching through the panel above my station in the Halifax, so of course we had to forget what we were doing and try and stop the, the rear gunner from bailing out which - There was two doors, one in the aircraft and one on the turret, so we had to keep pulling the dead man's handle, to stop the air gunner ‘cause he could operate his turret manually or electrically, and simply roll it round and then fall out backwards, but you have to appreciate that the tail end of a bomber is extremely narrow, and in there you have a huge oleo leg which was the, the rear wheel ‘cause that didn’t retract like the front carriage, so we spent ages, and of course he was trying to bale out panicked, and we were trying to stop him which we eventually did, and that was how we lost him because he was then classed as LMF which is lack of moral fibre, so we then of course got another rear gunner who had lost his crew, but this really was a no-no, that it was taught that it was very bad luck to take on another crew member who wasn’t there at the beginning, and in fact, on one of our last raids we had a whole- A bomb that went through the tail plane of our aircraft from one above, which fortunately it was only a small two-hundred-and-fifty pound bomb, and it just made a hole in the tail plane near the rudder but didn’t effect because we didn’t know that we’d been hit, until we got back to dispersal and saw the hole in the -In the tail plane. But after that, the- Very few raids, because we were getting close to the end of the war in ‘45, and we just carried on the same routine of if there was- You were going on a raid, you had a meal, then you were locked up in this building till the- You knew where you were going et cetera, and then of course, the war finished and all these foreigners, the New Zealanders, the South Africans, the Canadians, disappeared overnight back to their own countries so, the only personnel that were left were RAF. So what we did was a pilot and flight engineer got loaded up with bombs and pyrotechnics and, things like that, or unused ammunition and, and we used to fly out to the North Sea, drop this- And I acted as the bomb aimer, because there was only the pilot and me on board, but after that then, the war finished, we got rid of most of the, the bomb ordinance, and the flame float- Smoke floats, all that type of thing, and we were sent on indefinite leave.
JS: That’s - That was great, can I just take you back a wee bit, on your - That was really fascinating. You spoke about your crew, and interestingly how you, the RAF made crews was to sort of put you all in one room and say ‘sort yourselves out’, and you said you were picked by one of the other guys on the other crew, how did you get on with the rest of your crew?
CH: I got on well with them, I never had a problem, apart from one night, we were on a raid and as always if I moved from my engineer position to where the- You had to operate the petrol cocks, which were in the rest position, so I had to move, I would tell the pilot I was going back to change tanks. Now the Halifax had twelve petrol tanks, and you had a sequence, and we were on tanks five and six which were joined, which were big tanks and, I told him I was going back so what I was waiting for, I was waiting for four red lights to come up to tell me that the tank was empty, or the tanks on both sides were empty, and I would then close those levers and bring on the next levers with full tanks. Unfortunately, I fell asleep because it was so cold back there that I stuck the heating pipe up my flying harness which was nice and warm then, and also, we had been on a daylight raid earlier, and by the time we were debriefed and had a meal, and got taken back to our accommodation which was always outside the camp, we’d only had about four hours sleep when the police came and wakened up us again because we were on the night detail. Anyway, I’m enjoying my sleep and I hear this shouting down the earphones, ‘I’ve no petrol, I’ve no petrol’, but I don’t see what the pilot's problem was, we were at twenty-thousand feet anyway, so we had plenty time to remedy the situation. So, I closed tanks five and six both sides and opened tank number four either side, and within seconds he had his petrol, but he never forgave me for that, though he didn’t hold it against me, he gave me a bollocking but apart from that, it went off- That was about the only time we had a, a disagreement actually. In fact it went remarkably well because he landed once - We were on an air test, this aircraft had been serviced and we- It was our aircraft, so we took it for a short flight, and on the way back, in Yorkshire, the pilot decides to land [emphasis], and I said to him at the time, I said, ‘This is not our airfield’, ‘Yes it is, I know where we are.’ I said, ‘No it isn’t’ because each aircraft has its own- Each airfield had its own identification, and the one that was flashing wasn’t flashing Lisset. Anyway, we landed, and suddenly a jeep pulls up in front of us, a flight lieutenant gets out, comes to the aircraft, I go to the door, open it, he says, ‘What you doing here?’ I said, ‘We landed at the wrong air field.’ He said, ‘You’re dead right,’ He said, ‘Where are you from?’, So we said ‘Lisset,’ he said ‘Well you’re just over the road there’ [chuckles]. So, I mean that was how close we were, so he’d turned left instead of turning right, so anyway I told the pilot, so that sort of evened out my, misfortune for the, the petrol incident, but it was one of those things, I was tired [emphasis] and it was cold, and of course with sticking the hot air pipe up my flying harness got me nice and comfy.
JS: You- You mentioned as part of that, that your accommodation was off-base?
CH: Yes
JS: So- So what was your accommodation like?
CH: Well, to say the least, the accommodation was very rough. It was all dry toilets, because you were in a field, and what they’d done, they’d simply put the wooden huts in a clearance place, and then built like, toilets outside. There was no water on site, nothing like that, so you then had to go to the sergeants mess to have your wash and shave, and in fact at Riccall which was a heavy conversion unit, we had to walk across two fields to get to the sergeants mess, and if you were lucky you managed to get a locker to keep your stuff in there, there were- You know, you could locks, otherwise you had to carry it backwards and forwards to have a wash, and of course you used the toilets and that, but they had obviously water, but other than that, it was dry, lavatories and I won’t describe what they were [laughs], primitive to say the least. You were lucky, again, if you had a stove in these because your predecessors had probably knocked out the front of the, the stove, and had nicked some bread from the cookhouse to do toast back in the billet if you could find enough fuel to get the fire going because, in those days people didn’t come round and drop off coke for you, or anything, you had to do the scrounging bit as well. So you had to look after yourself, but there was an awful lot of self-discipline, a lot of self-discipline involved amongst the air crew but, they knew the rules and that was it, you stuck by them, not like the present-day air force you know, so that was the situation.
JS: Thank you. The- I read that were- You spoke about things being seen as not being lucky, about, you said if, if you took somebody on from another crew that the rest of their crew were lost that was seen as not being lucky, I read that there were two, there were two aircraft in the squadron, that by the end, by VE day had done well over a hundred operations, was the number of operations that your aircraft had done, was that seen as being lucky, or?
CH: No, the, the aircraft- One of the aircrafts that you’ve mentioned, did thirty-two ops, which was a lot, and I have a book on that particular aircraft, of course, the crews that manned it over the period of time, and in fact they- Elvington, which I’ve previously mentioned, outside York, they built a Halifax bomber, starting with the fuselage which came from Lerwick I think it was, or a bit of fuselage, which a farmer had bought because a Halifax had crashed in that area and his sheep, or whatever he had in the field at that time, took shelter in it. Anyway it was brought down to Elvington and by a lot of good will et cetera, was built to look like a Halifax bomber, and I had the privilege of being the first person that was allowed in to the actual aircraft, to, to see what work had been done, because it was like all the others, aircraft on view they were all roped off and you weren’t allowed to enter they were all locked, but because I’d been a flight engineer, and in fact I've got photographs of the actual aircraft, that was why I was allowed because as I say, I was a flight engineer on that squadron, with that particular aircraft, though I never flew in it. You were allocated an aircraft, different aircraft, it could be every time, you know, but, no, some people carried things with them which was for some reason special to them. Some of them carried crosses, you know, not on- Not based on a religious thing, other people had other things which they considered to be important and they carried them for good luck charms and put them on- I never carried anything like that, but that, that again, but that was one of the things that was fiercely resisted, that if you took on someone else then you were dicing with death.
JS: Interesting. You spoke earlier and took us up, up to the end of the war, and you said then, everybody- All the folk who’d come from elsewhere in the world, the Canadians and New Zealanders and whatever, they, they shipped home, and you mentioned dumping surplus munitions in the, in the North Sea, so, what did you do after that?
CH: Well after that, as I said to you we, we were sent on indefinite leave, and then we were called back, given a short list of jobs that we could do. I picked one which you- You had to pick something, so I picked an airframe mechanics job, went back to St Athans, did the course, wasn’t very happy with it, it wasn’t my type of work, anyway, I was posted to Desborough after that, and in those days I was a flight sergeant by then, during the day you covered up your badge of rank, so you worked as an airman, but you still used the sergeants mess, which you took you armbands- Your covers off to show your rank, but then in the morning you put them back on again. But there was a shortage of, senior NCOs at Desborough, so I was drafted in to the tech disip[?] office, without the badge covered up, so I carried on in there, and then the, because this was the time when there was many demobs going on at the end of the war, so I suddenly found myself taking over as well, as NCOIC police. So I was doing that job and suddenly I got told I was NCOIC fire section, so I’d now three jobs, and I thought well that’s it, that can’t get anymore, unfortunately I was wrong. We decided, or somebody decided that we’d have some German prisoners of war, though the war was over but, anyway, I had to go and collect these prisoners of war, we didn’t put them any locked compound or anything, I only had an LAC to help me, so I became ICGM and prisoners, and then I thought that must be it, but wrong again. At this time they decided to start the ATC having the summer camps at RAF stations, and Desborough was picked so I suddenly became IC air training corps cadets, in the- On the camp as well. So it was quite a busy time, the way, you had various things like courts martial as well, and of course I got that job, again because of your rank. The down side of all this was that they suddenly brought out two dates, all those who were warrant officers or flight sergeants had to reduce themselves to the rank of sergeant by this certain date, so fair enough, it was nothing uncommon to see a bloke walking round with a warrant officers’ uniform on showing where his gallopers had been on his arm wearing an LAC’s prop. Then the second date, that was when you reduced yourself to your rank in your ground trade, now had I not been lucky enough, I would’ve finished up as an AC1, but I remustered whilst all this business had being- IC Police and all the rest of it. To what were called in those days an aircraft and general duties, that was trade groups one to five in those days, but the trade I was in was trade group one, the air frames, but, five was the aircraft hand, and by doing that of course I managed to, on paper, work my way up to corporal, and then I saw an advert in the air ministry orders for drill instructors, now prior to all this upheaval I had gone to Cardington, and I did a six weeks warrant officers and flight sergeants course, which I passed, so of course that helped me no end. So I applied to become a drill instructor, and because of that of course I got made acting segreant, but the funny part about that was the, course was at- By this time had moved to RAF Credenhill which, subsequently became RAF Hereford, and I was standing outside with the rest of the course, waiting to be interviewed by the squadron commander, a warrant officer walked past, came up to me and said, ‘I know you,’ and I said ‘Yes, you know me’, he said ‘Where was it,’ I said ‘Cardington’, I gave him my name and that, away he went, anyway later on, I was told to leave the queue, so I was made a staff instructor there and then without doing that particular course. So I did that, and I did three years as staff instructor on the school airdrome, we taught weapons and bayonet fighting, admin, drill obviously, and this was training recruits into instructors, so that they could go out ‘cause in those days there was quite a lot of them. Anyway in 1949, I got posted to Padgate which was a school of training, and there I suddenly found myself nominated to set up a course for officer cadets, because the officer cadet school was full, so of course being- My background, I got the job of setting up this course for officer cadets, it was only a one-off thing, but then I did eighteen months there, and then during that time RAF Halton had gone through all the drill instructors in the RAF, we were told, and five of us had been selected from, because there was an awful lot of drill instructors in those days, five of us were selected for Halton, and the funny part about that, I always remember to this day [emphasis] was when I reported to the guard room, the corporal policeman said ‘Don’t unpack, you may not be stopping’ [laughs]. The obvious bit being that if you failed the five days, which was the period that they assessed you, from the air commodore, two group captains and various wing commanders, during the week, you had to do certain exercises, anyway, I was selected and I did three years there and that was where I became a substantive sergeant then, while I was there was seven years but, pay for seniority, so my sergeant went away back to when I became a sergeant flight engineer which made a big difference. So, anyway these blokes I’m still in touch with to this day, these apprentices, they’re in their mid-eighties, and I periodically get letters or phone calls from them, even now as we speak. But that was a hectic three years because I had two-hundred-and-twenty of them, and they were aged seventeen to twenty because they did three years, so if, they were unfortunate to fail their entry and got back flighted, they went back a year. So they then became that much older and more difficult to handle because, even though they were twenty or twenty-one the rules said they weren’t allowed to smoke, they weren’t allowed to go with girls, they had to be in bed by twenty-two-hundred-hours, things like that, but you still had to maintain discipline at that age. In fact, not so long ago I had a phone call from a group captain, who had been one of my, what we called snags, the leading apprentices but they were nicknamed snags, and of course he said, you know, the reason he rang, was that he, when he was a wing commander had been posted to Swinderby as OC training, and somewhere along the line he had either seen my name or heard my name mentioned, and was commenting on the work that DI’s did at square bashing camps, you see, so that, that was how I met him, but he’s still alive to this day, like me but [chuckles] that, that was that. Then, I got posted to Yatesbury by mistake, I was posted to the boy entrants wing, who unfortunately had moved before I got there and had moved up to Cosford, so I then got posted up to Kirkham near Preston, where they had trainees there but unfortunately, the station warrant officer there at that time had been the station warrant officer at Credenhill of course I was immediately in his office rather than sent out, anyway, that wasn't- Didn’t work very well really.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Colin Hynd
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-15
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHyndC171115
Format
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00:44:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
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James Sheach
Description
An account of the resource
Summary: Colin Hynd joined the RAF in November 1943. Upon completing initial training, he was posted to RAF St Athan, where he trained as a flight engineer. He struggled to bond with his first crew, so instead worked as an instructor before joining a Canadian crew based at 158 Squadron. Hynd recounts the briefing process and dangers during bombing operations. He also describes why their rear gunner was accused of Lack of Moral Fibre, accidentally falling asleep during an operation, dumping surplus munitions in the North Sea, and the conditions of their accommodation. Finally, Hynd describes serving as drill instructor after the war.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11
1945
158 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
military living conditions
RAF Desborough
RAF Halton
RAF Lissett
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
superstition
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/895/11135/AIndgeRC180131.1.mp3
0f432d9f2b49c42322b8456882eab8c6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Indge, Ronald
Ronald Charles Indge
R C Indge
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ron Indge (b. 1924, 2203016 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 578 Squadron before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Indge, RC
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: So this is an interview with Ron Indge. My name is Dan Ellin. The interview is for the International Bomber Command Centre. It is the 31st of January 2018 and we are in Mr Indge’s home in Woodhall Spa. So, Mr Indge could you start by telling us a little bit about where you were born and your early life, please?
RI: Yes. Well, well, I was born in Worksop and my early life was spent very happily I believe. A small family. My father had a business and life was very good to be very honest. I became very active in sports, particularly tennis and I met all sorts of people that all bore relevance later in life into the RAF. I perhaps ought to start by the end of the school time was Grammar School and I was in a mixed form in a Grammar School in Worksop. There were three forms in every, there was a male, female and a mixed form. I was lucky enough to be in the mixed form. And I think in 1939 which is when I left the school, the grammar school employment was very, very difficult to find or at the least employment I was looking for and, however I’ll now refer to a book that was written by a friend of mine. This chapter is called, “Early life.” It gives you the date of birth, and it reads as follows. “There was no work available. He wanted to work in a solicitor’s office or something similar. After he had not found work after two or three weeks his father found him a job as an apprentice joiner. He became a bound apprentice. The only way he could escape the apprenticeship was by becoming a sub mariner or by flying.” You could only break, that was a static thing. “Ron’s friend — ” now, I had a friend who, we used to tennis together most nights when it was suitable. He decided to volunteer for the Royal Air Force so I went with him to Sheffield on a Saturday and we both joined up at the same time. Neither of our parents knew until the Monday what we had done. “Ron was seventeen and three quarters years old at the time and felt some guilt but it was going to become more important as it got later. Ron says he joined,’ I think this is on one of the one in your, anyway, “Ron says that he joined the RAF for the glamour.”
DE: Right.
RI: Which I’m sure you’ve already got on one of your —
DE: A lot of people did. Yeah.
RI: I think that. Yeah. An important thing in early life which affected my life particularly was it was decided that I should learn to play a musical instrument. This was my parents. After, after a year of piano lessons my father decided that enough was enough and a waste of time and money so that was the standing. However, going up Gateford Road in Worksop which you know there was a furniture shop called Baldry’s , and in the window was a piano accordion and up there I saw this and it was fourteen pounds. What on earth made me so keen it was so I went in and a had twelve pounds in the bank at that stage. In the Yorkshire Penny Bank as it was then. And I withdrew the twelve quid. I went up and I got Arthur Baldry who owned the store and had a long talk to him and in the finish he agreed to sell me the thing for twelve quid. So that was how, that’s how the piano accordion business started. I got a fella to come and give me a few lessons to start with and it was sort of a, I don’t know I think to be one of my grandchildren is in the musical industry but I think to be in the music you’ve got to be keen anyway. I think it’s got to be. So it became for me and there are letters here which I’ll let you see that relates. I’d better not show you right now but I will. There is a letter that relates to one of the concert parties I was in anyway. But I’ll show you that that’s a letter of thanks as regards that. The thing’s falling to pieces. Right. That more or less covers the entrance in to the RAF and and to why I went and —
DE: So was, was —
RI: One can only imagine what my parents and my employer at the time thought when they found I’d volunteered to fly.
DE: Yeah. Was it, was it deferred entrance or did you go in straight away?
RI: That was a deferred entrance. Yes. I went into the ATC. Just for a few months.
DE: Right.
RI: And then of course we all went to an Aircrew Receiving Centre in London. That’s where we all joined in the eventuality.
DE: What was that like?
RI: Well, it was, it was good really because we used to eat in the London Zoo. They marched us from about 6 o’clock in the morning out of the billets and they were massive blocks of flats we were in. What they would be like now I’m not quite sure but they were beautiful places and I don’t know where all the people had been moved from but the Aircrew Receiving Centre was full of people of course. And London was being bombed at the time but however as I said we used to march to the, what was the old London Zoo and still is and we ate in their restaurant. They catered for us down there. There’s, I’ve got quite a lot of details about the Halifax which —
DE: Can we, yeah, can we talk a little more about reception and training before we move on to, to Halifaxes?
RI: Well, yes but I think probably that’s very commonplace for, that was, the training was universal really, was it not? And —
DE: Where did you train?
RI: I got drifted all over the place. I had eyesight trouble. I wasn’t, like everybody else I was going to be a pilot and all this carry on, and that. However, when I was examined I have and funnily enough my son’s got the same problem when I try and put my, I don’t know if it still does but when I put one finger to my nose the eyes, the eyes go in but one won’t stay there. It goes back. So they wanted all sorts and so I agreed then to change the entry into being a wireless op which is what I did at Yatesbury. The wireless school was at Yatesbury in those days. Near Calne in Wiltshire. So that’s, that went on there and I came out of that quite successfully and then the question came of where we got sent. I got sent all over the place funnily enough. I was, I even got up to Stranraer and then further up into Elgin in Scotland. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what that’s like there. And so that initial training was really in some ways it was I suppose was pleasurable because we got a fair amount of liberty and the hours in the rooms were fairly long but you have to try and remember that our ages at eighteen, life was very different now to looking at age of ninety plus. So the values are entirely different at that age rather than the values that we have now. There was no thought of long livity in those days where there is now. We all think about trying to live longer now but that didn’t happen in those days. We, we just took things as it was and made the best of a bad job and from becoming boys just having not long left school we became men very, very quickly. Going down to the boozer and fraternizing and things that we probably hadn’t done at home. I certainly hadn’t. But that’s the sort of thing we did at Yatesbury. We used to go down the pub in Calne where, famous for sausages of course. So that was the training really. And you passed out there with three stripes. Then of course you immediately it tended to go to our heads a bit I think [laughs] because I remember we threatened that if we could find any of the corporals that had given us big stick we would make sure that they had to suffer. But the night we went away from Yatesbury we went down to Calne and we couldn’t find a corporal anywhere. So the PTIs got away with that very fortunately I think.
DE: I think they probably were expecting it. Yeah.
RI: That had happened before obviously. That wasn’t new to them. So that was training over really.
DE: Did you —
RI: Then the next thing really is crewing up I suppose. I suppose that’s, I can’t just remember where the hell I crewed up now. I can’t just remember. And I’ve no mark on that so I can’t remember.
DE: Did you, did you do Morse when you were at Yatesbury?
RI: Yes. Oh yes. Yes.
DE: How many words a minute?
RI: I can’t remember now [laughs] It becomes a, I just, I just cannot remember now. I really can’t.
DE: I’ve read about something called Morse headache.
RI: I never suffered with that. Some did get some Morse Madness I heard of. I think one or two did fall by the wayside. But of course that was commonplace I think, wasn’t it, during RAF training? Some people took to madness or near madness and things because there was a place near Sheffield where some aircrew bods used to get sent that they couldn’t deal with otherwise and, but that’s sort of in the memory I think to be very honest. So then the crewing up came and which I can’t just remember where the hell it was now. But I sort of then was going to be crewed up on Halifax which now seems to be, it’s very little heard of. When we talk to people these days about the Halifax some of them have never heard of it. They’ve only heard of a Lancaster. Or in the case of a fighter a Spitfire in the case of a Hurricane. But that’s life. So that really was the training and then the commencement, that was the commencement of, we did a lot of when we were crewed up we then did a lot of cross countries and a few, I think we did a few leaflet raids as well. I think, while we were, while we were still in the u/t, under training but we certainly did a lot of cross countries and long ones to Ireland and right back down into Yorkshire. Yeah. I think we were. I know we were now. The thought has come back. It was at Riccall. At Riccall where, where we crewed up, because there was a runway at Riccall just between some trees because we pranged an aircraft down there. In fact, I’ve still got part of it in one of the drawers in there because I pinched the clock out of it at the time which lead to a big inquest from the, they had the coppers came around to us in our billets at night trying to find who’d stolen it. Who’d stolen the clock out of the aircraft. So, they won’t prosecute me now. It’s too late [laughs]
DE: I think you’ll be alright now. Yeah. I hope so anyway.
RI: Yeah. But there’s bits of it in there. Yes. So that, that was training at Riccall and then we eventually got posted along to 578 Squadron and which is where it all started and all the RAF career really ended. Or at least that part of it did. So probably the flight that involved the crash isn’t really relevant at this stage is it?
DE: Oh, I think. Yes.
RI: Is it?
DE: If you want to tell us about it then, yeah.
RI: Is it?
DE: Yeah.
RI: Well, the flight was to Gelsenkirchen which was an oil refinery. By this stage then in ’44 they had, much to a lot of people’s disgust Bomber Harris had then thrown everything to the wind really. A lot of the raids that we took part in I think into the Ruhr particularly were done in daylight where they actually could have been done in the dark with a lot less loss of life I think. However, we pranged in in Gelsenkirchen but we were hit at the rear of the aircraft and the rear gunner was killed. We were going to, when we found out he was, he was dead we left him there but the idea originally was to get him out, put a ‘chute on him and chuck him down because we were only minorly damaged really but enough that we lost some control of the aircraft. So when we found out he was dead he was left in there and went down with the aircraft. Now, I landed. On my way down I heard a big tear and the parachute, obviously they’d been aiming at me and they’d hit the parachute. This was broad daylight of course. They’d hit the parachute and just torn one panel. I’d forgotten that they weren’t in, they were only in panels which of course was the safest. So I probably descended a little bit quicker than normal but I got down quite safely and landed about, I don’t know about as far as from here to the, to that hedge. I don’t know how far that is. Down at the bottom. And about that far away from that ack ack site.
DE: Just a matter of yards then.
RI: Yards really.
DE: Yeah.
RI: And they were, I couldn’t believe my eyes. They were all young kids. Or they seemed to me to be young kids on there and just two who, who were officers. And eventually [pause] this is not in here I don’t think. It’s just coming back to me now. Eventually they handed me over to the civilian police who along came a German copper, handcuffed me to a bike, took me down to the local village and locked me in a cell and came, and through the bars of the cell said, ‘Essen?’ Now I thought when he said, ‘essen’ I thought he was asking me if I’d flown on a trip to Essen and my imagination running wild I thought he must think we’d dropped bombs on Essen. Perhaps killed some of his family. So I shook my head and said, ‘No.’ Of course later on when I learned what essen was [laughs] I’d then refused all the forms of food so of course they didn’t give me any. So, so that was that. And then of course we all were sent then to this aircrew, I forget the name of that. That’s in here somewhere I think. But there was a centre. There’s a picture of the, of the bod in there I think somewhere, however we’ll find that.
DE: Dulag was it?
RI: Yes. No. No. That’s dulag. No. There was a reception centre for all aircrew where you were put in small cells and questioned at all hours of the sort of nights and things. But by 1944, in September ’44 there was a great, a lot of the Germans were beginning to think that they weren’t going to win the war and so perhaps the interrogation wasn’t as bad as it had been previously. I spent, I think I spent three weeks in there I think, and then we were transported by rail out of there to various camps. And in my case of course some of the, it was due to German guards really that I think we would have all lost our lives I think. Because in some of the, some of the major stations we went through on the line back to Stalag Luft 7 the lines were broken and so we ended up walking through one bit, some bits of some of the Ruhr towns and then re-trained and went further on down the line. But the, the Germans if it hadn’t have been for the guards I’m sure we would probably have been executed. I’m sure we would have been executed anyway. The bitterness was, from the, in the cities was terrible of course. So that was the story. And then I’m now then in in Stalag Luft 7. And in there this is where the piano accordion business all came to fruition on my part really. What happened was two or three days after I’d been in there I heard a chap playing the piano accordion so I made my way around. I found him. And there was also a bod there had bagpipes funnily enough [laughs] God above. However, I got [Leo Mackie] I remember the man’s name now. [Leo Mackie], I think. I don’t know what nationality he was, however he played the squeezebox so I had a word with him and he gave it me and I had a play on it. So he said, ‘What about we try and get some more squeezeboxes?’ I said, ‘Yeah. Let’s have a — ’ So we asked some of the Germans and they wouldn’t play ball with us. However, we got through to the Red Cross and eventually we got sent six brand new piano accordions which, which was brilliant for us and a drum kit and a double bass and a guitar I think. Yeah. That’s right. I think they’re all, and there’s a picture involved which I’ll come to shortly because how we got that picture was later on. So, it bore fruition in many ways in that we started it. We got together. We used to play every day all day of course. Nothing else to do really. Or walk around the camp which so that was really a saviour for me because whilst I’m loathe to admit it now we went out on several nights under supervision to the German officer’s headquarters and played for them to dance and [emphasis] they gave us a meal which of course was a big thing. I’m a bit ashamed to say that now but however it is part of the truth of the thing and of course as we said at eighteen, nineteen things look very different and self-preservation is, becomes very important. So that was that of which we’ve got a photograph which we’ve only recently acquired. It was sent to, it was sent to Hollis. This photograph on there of course there’s a conductor. He was a professional musician and the lady at the end of course was just another bod all dressed up in lady’s attire [laughs]. So we used to give concerts both in the camp and we occasionally went out to give the Germans, so that really was a really big help for my part in the prison camp. A big help. And then of course eventually 1945 arrived. We spent Christmas in the camp of course which really wasn’t to be [laughs] However, 1945 arrived and eventually we could hear gunfire at nights which was of course the Russians advancing. Well, there wasn’t, Stalag Luft 7 was a virtual new camp when I went in it because when I first went in it was hen huts. Really hen huts. That’s what it was. But it was rebuilt not long after I got there so it was very tolerable living conditions really. Nothing like as bad as some of the other people had suffered I think, because of course the SS had tried very hard to take over Luftwaffe camps but the, but their Air Force wouldn’t let them. So their camps were run naturally by, by Air Force personnel, or their Air Force personnel which was a lot easier I think to what I’ve been told from the SS run camps. The SS tried to run them but couldn’t. However, they marched out by being turfed out which I can refer to later on and it’s all detailed down in some of these books anyway. After, I think there was about fifteen hundred of us in Luft 7, and but when we got to a thousand we got a doctor. Our own doctor then who was an ex-kriegsgefangene, he was a prisoner as well. He was, he was in the army actually. And as we, as we assembled out to march away we didn’t know what we were going to be doing but that’s, obviously we’d heard the gunfire at night and particularly, and so the doctor addressed us and said, ‘Now, unless you’ve got adequate provision stacked by and or can speak fluent German don’t try and escape and don’t carry anything that you don’t really need. And I mean anything.’ Well, this part you won’t believe anyway but I’ll tell you. I had a piano accordion and I read through the line and I thought that’s out definitely. And it was snowing now, down to about, well the temperature on that part of the march was between minus twenty and minus forty. It did get to minus forty once. Minus thirty most of the time. So I tried to flog this piano accordion for anything I could get hold of and eventually I couldn’t sell it at all. I could not get, you are not going to believe this. It’s gospel truth. I couldn’t get one cigarette for it. So why we hated the Russians so much I don’t quite know. So I kicked it to pieces and so did several others as well. So, these were brand new squeeze boxes and so that was, that was the end of that part of the story really. And from then of course they marched us on the Long March which there’s been much reference made about and there’s all sort of information in these books which I’m sure some time you’d like to have a copy of or whatever. It was, we straggled, but we were told really not to escape because if you got tired and laid down you certainly wouldn’t, that would be the end of the story. How many [pause] quite a lot did escape or did elect to leave the, the throng. So how many actually died on that march I haven’t the faintest of ideas. All I know is that there were at least half were sort of in Stalag 3a at the end. But whether or not they’d lost their lost their lives or gone elsewhere I was never quite sure. The only thing that happened in Stalag 3a was that the Russians liberated us and the Americans came with transport to take us over the river and take us back home. But the Russians wanted an exchange of prisoners over the river. They wanted some of their prisoners bringing back in to their land and then they were going to exchange and let us go. So we were held five weeks in which time they never, they never gave us any rations. Nothing. We had to go down the village and so we went down there. And another story, down the village which is only just coming to light now. I used to go down with John Tregoning down the village to steal food and if you couldn’t get into the houses you just, the Russians were up and down there on motorbikes and things. Riding about like children they were actually. They hadn’t seen such things and they used to ride down there firing guns through the windows and all. It’s unbelievable really. But John and I, walking down the street in the local village could hear either ducks, geese or some form of livestock and we knocked on the door of this property and they wouldn’t let us in. So we got hold of a Russian eventually who came past on a motorbike. We waved him down and pointed to this noise and pointed to the [laughs] that we wanted, and so he broke the door down and got us I think it was a duck. I think. Certainly, yes I’m sure it was a duck and so then he chopped it’s head off and gave us the body. So we took that back. John and I took that back to the camp and had a feast. But that’s how we lived for those, for those few weeks and eventually it became a bit more liberal and so John and I whilst we were still waiting for transport we decided to make our own way and we eventually made our own way from 3a as far as Brussels from where we flew home. So that was the end of that story really.
DE: Yeah. You mentioned before we started the recording about a crew member and a sledge. Could you tell us a little bit about that?
RI: Well, that’s Johnny. It’s in that book. It’s in the story that John’s written isn’t it?
DE: Yeah.
RI: That was done because John Tregoning had gone on the march. John had gone off his legs and, but that’s all been, he wrote that of course actually when we were on the march. This is a copy that he wrote afterwards. John. John did. He’d gone off his legs and found it very difficult to walk and we were terrified we were going to lose him and he thought he was going to die as well. So we fabricated some form of sledge by like two lengths of timber. I think John got them somewhere one night when we were locked in a farm I think. We then lashed a sort of a sledge if you like. Whether you’d call it a sledge or, I really don’t know. All it was two lengths of timber lashed together with a space between. And we took, one of us, it took two of us we took one end of each length of timber if you like and walked, and John laid in that and then the back two ends we dragged because of course it was, it was snow laden so it was very slippery anyway. It wasn’t hard to pull in any case. It would have been had there been no snow but with it being snow and ice it was reasonably easy to pull. So we did that for several days for which John, I’ve visited him in Plymouth many times since, he’s dead now but he thanked me very much because he said, ‘I’d certainly would have died, Ron if you hadn’t have given me that, if you hadn’t dragged me on that sledge down there.’ So that was that bit really on the march. Really. Yeah. But as I said you have to remember how old we were. You know the thought nowadays was you can’t even imagine it now at forty let alone ninety but it was relatively easy speaking I suppose at that age because I was back home for my twenty first birthday, of course.
DE: Ok. What was, what was the journey to Brussels like?
RI: Alright. It was great really because we, we, I saw Glenn Miller’s band. We used to stay in various camps. They made us very welcome. It was funny really. They never sort of thought that we were traitors or anything. Or anything of that sort. Coming to traitors. That’s another thing I’ve completely forgotten about, which is also in these books anyway and in the official book as well. I might retrace my steps a minute then.
DE: Ok.
RI: In the prison camp when I first went in the senior NCO, there were no officers in that camp, I was in Stalag Luft 7. At that stage there were no officers. They were all NCOs and the senior NCO he’d, he’d sort of taken charge of the whole thing, and you were told to go and have a word with him. And so going and having a word with this, this body we were warned that there was a traitor among us and that, he told us who he was, what his name was and all the rest of it and to beware of this because he was going around with bogus Red Cross forms. Wanting you to know and all the rest of it. However, I did see this bod and one night. This was in the early, this was before the camp was, before the new camp was built. This was in the old camp we used to sit around at night and play cards or whatever we did. I think some form of game. We got hold of some game. We used to sit around in candle light. There was no electricity of course. In candle light. We’d made our own candles out of whatever you could. Anyway, we got made, made up candles. And this bod came in. Now, I think there was about six of us in this and so he tried to enter conversation and nobody would speak. None of us would speak to him. This sounds impossible but its gospel. So this bod came in and, and then he said, ‘I’ve got a photograph of my lady friend here.’ Now this is unbelievable. So he passed this photograph around and when he got to me I said, ‘Oh, I know that girl.’ He said, ‘I don’t think you do.’ I said, I said, ‘She’s one of a twin in Worksop.’ And so she was. So to go forward again now so that was that. But he used to disappear. He used to go to Berlin and he used, he was a big friend of Lord Haw Haw in those days. He used to go to Berlin. Disappear, come back all well dressed and all the rest of it. So we all knew but of course he was shunned in the camp. But at the end, of, at the end just at the end of our stay in the prison camp he disappeared from Luft 7. He disappeared altogether and that was the last I heard of him of course at that time. So we didn’t know whether he’d been killed or, we didn’t care either. That didn’t matter too much to be very honest. However, after the war was over and I was in Worksop I had a lady friend who, we were married afterwards, Joyce. And she worked in the Co -op. We used to walk, I used to take her for, I had about three months leave altogether. However, that’s another story. I used to slip down to the Co-op. We used to go out for lunch together of course. You’ve got to imagine I’m twenty then [laughs] So you can probably, I’ll leave that to your imagination. And we were walking up Gateford Road near to where I bought the piano accordion funnily enough. Walking up there and I see this bod coming down with a lady on his arm and it was him. That was in Gateford Road in Worksop. So I said to Joyce, ‘We don’t speak to this man. Walk past him.’ Which is what we did. I wouldn’t, he did try and speak but we wouldn’t speak and so that was the end of that. And that was the end of it so far as I was concerned except later on when I got a news bulletin he’d been, he’d got five years hard labour I think. Eventually when all this, because of course we all made reports about him at the end of the story and so he got five years hard labour. So that was, we all clapped or at least I clapped. That was after the war that was. I clapped hands then when I found that out of course. That was it. But so that was a great coincidence in there really. But as I say the piano accordion made my life that bit better more than most. Well, it did anyway. There’s no question about that. So that was very fortunate really. Yeah. It was. Yeah. So that ends the story really as regards the prison camp I think. I can’t think of anything else.
DE: You were just about to tell us about the walk to Belgium and what that was like.
RI: Oh yeah. It was, we were gobsmacked really because we used, John being a navigator and a very intelligent one at that he knew the way right enough and so we used to make our way from camp to camp. It sounds impossible now but that’s what, we actually went to one, we got in one American camp one night or one day rather and they made us awfully welcome. And food we’d never had for ages and Glenn Miller’s band was there. He wasn’t there of course because he was dead but his band were there. They played all day every day. That was wonderful that was really. I’ll never forget that really. Being in the musical business myself as well. Yeah. So that was that but we went from place to place. Army places and all sorts but from there we enjoyed it I suppose in a way because we’d eaten. We ate plenty you see and that sort of thing. Yeah. The only thing about the remnant of the outcome of all this was when I was in 3a I got yellow jaundice. Now, yellow jaundice in the hospital there all it was was a mattress on the floor and there were loads of us. It was caused by eating too much fats we think. Or I think. At the time when we were liberated we were liberated then and we were eating all these fats and that came one way or another. And so I had yellow jaundice. I was five days in there. Now, when I came home, I’m going on a bit now I’m back in the UK, having flown back from Brussels. I’m now back in the UK. Now, I’d never heard from my parents through that nine, ten months I was away. And I arrived, I get a leave warrant and I come, I’m coming home now with my kit and a leave warrant. I got a month’s leave I think to start with. And when I got off the train there was the station master in Worksop then was a man called George Taylor who was a large friend of my father’s and when I got off the train George was waiting for me and he said, ‘Oh, Ron. Let me just have a word.’ He said, ‘Before you go home I want you to go up to the shop and see your father.’ So I said, ‘Whatever for?’ He said, ‘Well, I don’t really know. Your father wants to see you.’ So I think that in Worksop from the station up to the top of Bridge Street is about a mile so I walked up there to right where the Town Hall is in actual fact. So I walked up there to the thing and saw my father was there waiting to see me. And they knew, I’d sent a telegram I think to say I was coming home and then he knew. My father knew. So he said, ‘Well, before you go home you’ve got to go and see Dr Anderson down Potter Street.’ So I said, well, that was just a bit further down the Town Hall. Down Potter Street. So I said, ‘What for?’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘I don’t really know.’ So I put two and two together and I thought now this is yellow jaundice. I’d had an x-ray by the way after, after. So I thought this relates to yellow jaundice. It’s given me heart trouble. That’s all I could think of because actually yellow jaundice has, does give all sorts of problems. So that was, that was, so I trooped down and sure enough Dr Anderson’s waiting. He had two sons then running his business but he was there waiting to see me. So he got me sat down and he said, ‘Now,’ he said, ‘I’ve got some bad news for you.’ I said, ‘Ok. Thank you,’ thinking, still thinking, I mean I’m in now dead stuck. So he said, ‘Your mother’s very ill.’ I said, ‘I beg your pardon.’ He said, ‘Your mother’s very ill and one of her sisters is looking after her and,’ he said, ‘I think she’ll probably live two weeks. She’s purely alive to see you.’
DE: Oh crikey.
RI: Which [pause] so I then made my way home and of course all that he’d told me was true. My mum was in a bed in the front room and had been there for months. And she did die about a fortnight after I got home. So that was home coming [pause] I’m sorry.
DE: No. Do you want me to stop it for a minute?
RI: Yeah.
[recording paused]
DE: Ok. So we’re recording again.
RI: The worst part of it really was that I had no need in the first place. As I was in a Reserved Occupation being a bound apprentice I was a fool to go. I’d no need to have gone in the Service until I’d done my apprenticeship. Five years. Or seven years, I think. And I’ve, in some respects I’ve held myself responsible for my mother’s death.
DE: You think it was something to do with her worrying about you.
RI: Well, I’d no need to have gone in the Services. I could have stayed out. And I think with hindsight it was what I envisaged the Service offered as against what I’d got at home. I’d got a marvellous home but at the same time you were subject to sort of home discipline I suppose in one way or another. And of course by going in to the RAF I envisaged all sorts of things which some which materialised and some didn’t but I’d [pause] people have said what a fool I am to think that I caused my mother’s death. I still don’t know to this day what she died of.
DE: Right.
RI: I don’t know what the death certificate was made out of. I don’t. I’m not quite sure. I went, I went to pieces actually for a while. I went back to Church Fenton which was, after I had this month and was interviewed by a wing co or whatever. I can’t remember what rank he was but it was an interview and he said, ‘What do you want to do with the rest of your stay in the RAF?’ And I said, he said, ‘Do you want to go on a pilot’s course again?’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t know really.’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, we can put you on a Mosquito course if you like or — ’ I said, ‘What’s the alternative?’ he said, ‘Air traffic control. Flying control.’ So I said, well I then went out and then explained to him about things at home and all the rest of it and he said, ‘Well, take some more leave. Take us much as you like.’ I had actually about three months leave in total I think. But betwixt times I got talking to some friends, ex-RAF friends and as they said, ‘Think twice before you start talking about flying because the Japanese war is still on and the Japanese don’t take aircrew prisoners. What they do in actual fact [unclear] I speak to you. They cut the goolies off and sew them to your mouth and kill you.’ He said, ‘That’s what happens to all if you get shot down.’ But I think and I’m nearly sure that people that flew over Japan at that particular time towards the end of the war were given suicide tablets anyway. I’m not a hundred percent sure about that but I’m nearly certain that’s what happened. Yeah. Because the death rate they just didn’t take prisoners. Aircrew prisoners anyway. So that was that. So then the air traffic control business came in then. And the only row I had in, in my RAF career I think ended up by, I went on a course for air traffic control business which really didn’t amount to much. I got all the rudiments of it anyway and I was, I got eventually sent to Spitalgate near Grantham and there was a flight lieutenant there that was in charge. I was a WO1 in those days. The overall bod in that flying control at Spitalgate was the lieutenant and he’d, he was a pre-war bod who hated aircrew anyway because of the rapid promotion. [laughs] Not unusual. And, but I was the senior NCO there and the station warrant officer was also an ex-aircrew bod which was a blessing. So Christmas came in ’45 and there was a list arrived on the notice board of people on duty over Christmas. Of which I was one. So my father was now of course on his own and I spent the last Christmas in the POW camp. So I got hold of this flight lieui who didn’t like me anyway and I, mutual and I said, ‘I find that very hard to take.’ I said, ‘I think,’ I said, ‘And there are one or two more NCOs who’ll take my place anyway because I’d already broached it with them,’ and I said, ‘There’s one or two NCOs that will take my place so that I can have Christmas leave.’ ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘It’s all been done fairly. That’s the end of it. And you’re on at Christmas.’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘In that case I’ll put an application in to see the old man,’ who was an ex-aircrew bod you, see and I knew, I knew he was on a loser. So one thing led to another and then my name disappeared off there and I got Christmas leave and some bod took it on. But when I got, when I came back after Christmas leave a couple of the bods said, ‘You want to be ever so careful because he hasn’t half got it in for you now.’ I said, ‘That won’t matter anyway,’ I said, ‘No chance.’ He didn’t know I’d got a car anyway and he didn’t know that. Cars were very scarce in that time of course but I had my own car. And he sent me out to Coleby Grange which was in Lincolnshire here and I I ended up stopping there and closing that place down ready for the Yanks because they were going to put nuclear weapons in there eventually. In Coleby they were. And so I had a great time at Coleby Grange unbeknownst to him you see, yeah because I was a senior bod there. There was supposed to be a commissioned officer but we never hardly saw one. But we had a great time there. A really great time. And another part, another story which, this is hard, you’ll find this hard to believe. It became a storage place for the RAF when they were closing stations down we’d get all sorts of tackle then. And I got landed with the job of putting all this stuff that appeared on lorries and trailers and things into these hangars that were empty then. And of course one day, I hope you believe this, one day a lorry arrived and he came. I went to talk to the driver and he wanted to know where to take it. So I said, ‘Well — ’ And they were balloons they were. Air sea rescue balloons but not, not the land ones. The water ones. Over the water. So he said, ‘They’re all barrage balloons I’ve got.’ So he said, ‘Do you want one?’ Now, this sounds too silly for words but it’s, so I said, ‘Well, I don’t know really. Yes. Yes.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘I’ve got one spare if you want one.’ So he give me one of these balloons. Bloody great thing of course. So I got one of the ground crew lads to take one of the seats out of the car and I got it in there and I eventually took it home for all the ladies to cut it up and made clothing for themselves after this. This was of course when clothing was scarce. So that was really the end of all that and I stayed there until Coleby closed down. Then I managed to get, I was demobbed then and came home. Since when of course a lot of these other things have born light now. And which I’ll probably go into now with. When you’re ready. Yeah.
DE: Okey dokey. Yeah.
RI: So really that covers, sort of I don’t know if I’ve done right.
DE: No. That was wonderful. So what did you do after you left the RAF?
RI: Well, the RAF. When I, as I was coming out of the RAF the RAF informed me by letter I think that certainly I was communicated somewhere or other, the RAF would pay a third of my wages to complete my apprenticeship. Which is what they did. And there’s a completion of apprenticeship papers in there somewhere. There is. Well, there is. It’s in there. And so I did two years and I did very well to be honest. I got, and I got on very well with, with the employer and who gave me a magnificent twenty first birthday I might add too. Gold cufflinks and everything which I’ve still got of course and, but I was obsessed with self-employment rather than somebody to, I’ve never liked people telling me what to do. That’s unfortunate. So I was obsessed with the idea of you know getting on my own sooner or later and [pause] And I hadn’t the money to set up in business but the Yorkshire Penny Bank I knew the manager in there. The Yorkshire Penny Bank as it was in those days. And I eventually took a shop in Chesterfield that sold news and it had, there’d been that, it was a big shop actually for a new starter but I borrowed money from one place or another and what money I had and we went into this. There was, we had a thousand paper customers. I’d never been in the shop in my life before. With bacon and everything in but it progressed but there’d been thieving going on terribly and the place had lost money. However, I soon put a stop to that and I got some of the family to come and help and so we progressed from there and then I eventually sold that. And because I wanted to go and live, oh I did have, I suffer with catarrh. Still do. And the doctor said, ‘You want to go and live by the coast.’ So eventually I went to have a look at the coast and found a piece of land and built half a dozen bungalows on there which we then let in the summer time and then eventually sold. And then through the Chesterfield business a chap arrived where I lived in, in, down on the coast and introduced his self. He said, ‘I’ve had a word with — ’ I think the Heinz representative, he said, ‘Who met you in Chesterfield. I said, ‘Oh, yeah.’ He said, ‘You wouldn’t be interested in coming along with me would you?’ So I said, ‘Well, I don’t know. In what respect?’ So he said, well he said, he was a man just a bit older than me, he played the organ as well by the way, Johnnie did. And one thing led to another and he said, ‘Look, why don’t you come and take the store over in Sutton on Sea for me?’ Why this all came through a traveller that had been to me in Chesterfield and then met him in Sutton on Sea. So I said yeah. So I took over and ran that and put it, it was losing money, we put it back on profit and sacked a lot of the staff because they were all at it. And yeah, so that was, so well my kids came and helped in there as well. So that, that was going, and then Johnnie was getting to the, he got caught with his, well that’s another story but he, he his wife left him and then he got married again. She was a great woman too I might add. However, things progressed and then he opened an organ shop. She came from Derby and he said, he was thinking of retiring and one week he came, he came down to, and had a word. He said ’Look,’ he said, he used to come to our house in Trusthorpe and he came and he said, ‘Look, Ron, can I have a talk with you? Can we come Sunday night and have a talk to you and I’ll bring Edna with me?’ I said, ‘Of course you can.’ So he came around, we had a meal together and all the rest of it and he said, ‘Look, he said, ‘I’m thinking of retiring.’ Now, he’s got a business there or had then and employed about two hundred people in the summer time. He had a Rootes group, a car place, spray shop, loads of restaurants, fish and chip restaurants. You name it he’d got them. He’d really got it. He’d been in the RAF too. But he’d really, he was a gruff man. You’d never believe with some of his language but the best business man I’ve ever met in my life. So we sat and he said, ‘Look Ron, he said, ‘I’m not looking for money,’ he said, ‘I’m looking for you to take it over lock stock and barrel,’ he said, ‘And you can pay me back.’ He said, ‘We’ll put it through a solicitor but I want you to pay me back gradually. A bit at a time.’ So I said, ‘Well, ok. Let’s think about it then.’ So off he went thinking we’ve already agreed to this. So when he’d gone I said to Joyce, ‘Look, I’m not really too sure about this. We’re going to, this, this business is a seven day a week thing from eight in the morning ‘til 9 o’clock or 10 o’clock at night when we close up.’ So I said, ‘Look, I think, I think not.’ So I went to see him down at his house in Mablethorpe and I said, ‘Ray, I’m ever so sorry but I’m going to turn you,’ Oh he couldn’t believe it.’ He said, ‘You’re never turning it down.’ I said, ‘Yeah. I am. Because I want to be on my own.’ So from there that was that. And I’ve always been interested in antiques as you probably look around you’ll see. And I said when we built these bungalows, I said to Joyce, ‘We haven’t had a holiday. Let’s bugger off and have a holiday.’ So we grabbed the kids and took the car and went toured around Scotland. We’d arranged to stay away two weeks and after about, I can’t be still anyway, after about twelve days, no. Less than that. After ten days we were back around as far as Stranraer and we got, I said, ‘Let’s have another two or three days before we go home. So I said, ‘Let’s go across to Ireland and find John Tregoning,’ who was the fella I’ve referred to already. He was a customs officer on the border. Now, I didn’t know where he was unfortunately so the first morning we were there we went into the customs headquarters in, in Dublin. No. In Stranraer sorry. Yeah. In Stranraer. No, it was over in, no, the headquarters of, it was in Ireland somewhere where the headquarters. Anyway, I went to see this bod in there and I said, ‘I’m looking for a man called John Tregoning.’ And he said, well we wouldn’t tell me where he was, he said was because, ‘The reason I don’t tell you is I don’t know whether you’re looking for retribution or whatever.’ So I said, well, so I explained it to him and then he said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you what I’ll do,’ he said, ‘I’ll get in touch with him and I’ll have a word with him,’ he said, ‘And then if you come back I’ll tell you either yay or nay.’ So we do this and we went back and he told us Ray lived in Auchnacloy down on the border, you see. So we get down to Auchnacloy and we have festivities as you probably can imagine. And walking through, through the village we see a fella who obviously knew John, called George Taylor and we eventually go across to his place down in, he was dealing in antiques and horses and horse and carriages and things. I couldn’t believe the stuff he’d got. So, anyway, one thing led to another and so I formed a friendship with this George Taylor in Auchnacloy and it lasted, well until I packed the antique business up. We used to go to Ireland weekly, virtually. But he, he had some carriages and all these things that you see on the TV with these fancy carriages and stagecoaches and things and he’d all these. He’d over a hundred in one field. Traps. So I ended up buying some bloody traps you see and bringing them home to the UK [laughs] and landaus and all sorts. So that bore fruition, and went very well until to go back to my son he, he wanted to go, he wanted to go into navigation in the Merchant Navy. But when he went for a medical examination he found, they found he’d got the same trouble with his eyes I have. And so we had a, they rang me up from, from Grimsby actually. Been for this test in Grimsby and they rang me up and said this problem and they said that you could probably get him cured by getting him going to the relevant people. But he said, ‘We must warn you that he’ll have to undergo the same eye test every year. Now, he said if it deteriorates he’s never going to be out of trouble.’ So I went over and I told Robert what all this was and he said, ‘Well, I don’t know what to do, dad.’ I said, ‘Well, do you want to come and work with me for a while?’ So he joined me and that’s how it all ended up and it’s still the same thing now.
DE: Right. Ok
RI: He’s still, still doing now. He’s got some bungalows. So that’s another. So that, so that was that story really. How that all came about. My son came to work, to work with me and that’s how. Then of course the family all then we all amalgamated and got together and poor old, poor lad then we put him in we had a hot dog stall in Mablethorpe so we put him in there at nights. I think he gave more away then he sold but if you ever meet him. Oh, you met him anyway because he was with me when we went there.
DE: Right.
RI: Robert was. Yeah.
DE: So you mentioned that you met up with some of your crew.
RI: I did yes. I did. Well, I used to see John regularly because he was in Auchnacloy and we used to go and stay there you see. So we used to see John quite regular. Now, Tom Coram, came over from Australia and he wasn’t a very nice chap so that was best forgotten really. So I then decided to go to Canada to see, to see John Callingham. So we went and had a ride down the, you know, down. Did all the trip and I went and flew over on Concorde and all the rest of it we did because [laughs] So, so that was that. And so, yeah. So we had, we had a great time with John. There’s photographs of him somewhere which we’ll come to shortly. So we discussed all this. What we’d done and of course we were much older by this stage of course, you see. So things take on a different light really. But we had a lot of, he was a hell of a nice man and he’d taken a big part in in Canada in in Toronto in the ex-Service Associations. They used to fly him over to France every year to the, to this thing there. So he’d taken a big part actually after. He was a, what did he do? He was a [pause] he weren’t an engineer. No. He was a surveyor I think. Yes. He was. Yeah. So I saw him and the mid-upper gunner. He went. He played the clarinet by the way, the mid-upper gunner and, but he went to live in Australia and so I lost touch with him. The last time I talked to them on the phone he’d got dementia and so he didn’t really know anybody and all this tragic story. So that ended, and that finished that. John Tregoning, who was the navigator was the bod who we became very, very friendly with. We used to go and see him in Plymouth. When he came back from Ireland he took a big job in Plymouth so we used to go down there and have a few days with him in Plymouth. And he used to, hadn’t been on the Hoe and this Plymouth Hoe and all this business. So we had great times down there. Yeah, yeah, so that. And the Eddie Gaylor, the bod who was the spare rear gunner I met him regularly then of course because he used to walk past with his little dog and so forth. So I met him quite regularly. So, but the rest, for the rest, it sort of it disappears doesn’t it? The engineer that we had he had joined us latterly of course after, after we’d crewed up originally. He joined us last but he was a married man and he was twenty eight. Lived in Liverpool. But to us this is incredible.
DE: He was an old man.
RI: We thought he was an old man. He’d got kids. So we never sort of mixed with him at all whilst he was a good engineer so far, but he never sort of became part of us at all. And Christ he was only twenty eight [laughs] This is unbelievable really now.
DE: Yeah.
RI: You’ve disturbed all this news you have [laughs] you’re the one that’s responsible now. Yeah.
DE: Yeah. So when did you start going to Squadron Association meetings and reunions and things?
RI: Do you know, it was only through him. Through Eddie that I went. Meeting him. That was. Oh, it must be —
DE: Eddie was the spare bod gunner.
RI: Yeah. He was the spare bod gunner.
DE: Yeah.
RI: Yes. Yeah. And that of course at the reunions was where I met the fella who sold all the books. I will show you. I won’t let you read them now but I’ll show what he’s written. Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. Of which he’s put copies in the museum in Elvington. But you can’t get at them unless you get permission but they’re there to be read. All of them that he wrote on my behalf. Yeah. He became a great friend. A great friend, he really did, a real nice. What a nice man. He really was. Yeah. Really is rather. I must ring him, because going back to the rear gunner’s memorial at your place when your helpers told us that his name wouldn’t be on there because there was only Lincolnshire names on there I had to tell you that didn’t I? And then we find out from your good self that, that wasn’t true and of course the names that I imagine that the two Ridleys on there weren’t him but of course they are.
DE: Yeah. Yeah. One of them is. Yeah.
RI: Yeah. That’s right. One of them is Bert so I‘ve now got to ring around some of his family because they want to, they’ve seen it all at Elvington but they’ll certainly want to see this at your place now. So I’ve got the, one of them, one, his cousin he lives in a castle up in [pause] his two lads. One of them’s a test pilot for [pause] in France. And his wife flies the queen. And the other one is, is in charge of building the new airport in Hong Kong. So you can guess what they are.
DE: Yeah.
RI: Yes. So they all want, they send hampers to us at Christmas and all this sort of thing now. So it’s all, just to tell you the story about his family about the rear gunner’s family that’s written down. But you’ll see this but if you want to record it while you’re here. What happened was, I forget how many years ago it is now, but it does tell you in there anyway. How many years ago I get a phone call one Sunday afternoon and a bod saying, ‘Is that Mr Indge?’ Now, I don’t like being disturbed Sunday afternoons and I thought it was somebody trying to sell me double glazing or some silly bloody thing so I said, ‘Yes, it is,’ I said, ‘What do you want?’ I wasn’t very courteous I don’t think. So he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘All I can say to you Mr Indge does the name Ridley mean anything to you?’ I said, ‘Yeah. It does. It means a lot to me.’ I said, ‘Why? Do you know him?’ And he said, ‘No. But,’ he said, ‘I’m one of the Ridley family.’ So then we start to converse then and one thing led to another. So then he got in touch with his brother and his father who then ring me up and all this. So then eventually they want to come down here and have a look at a Halifax, you see. Now, I’ve been in the one in Elvington several times, and they normally in those days and still, as far as I’m aware still do, you can go in. You go in. Of course we didn’t, we didn’t come out that way. We came out via a hatch but the side of the Halifax is well back.
DE: Yes.
RI: But they won’t let visitors turn right down to the rear turret. They only let visitors go left up in to where the engineers and everybody else was sat. So they arranged then to come on holiday for which I never coughed a penny. They paid for my hotels and all this they did. These three did. And so then I rang Elvington and arranged that I could take them and they’d let them go inside the aircraft probably and have a look. Now, I’d been in several times obviously, and there was usually young men that were there to show you around the aircraft because it’s really a job for a very young man climbing in and out anyway. So when I went with these three Ridleys, it was an old man. Well, old. I say oldish. I suppose sixty five, seventy perhaps and he was going to take us into the aircraft. So he climbed into the aircraft first followed by perhaps myself and these other three bods and he then starts to, I said, ‘They would like to look in the turret.’ He said, he said, ‘You know that I can’t let you go down there.’ I said, ‘No. But — ’ I said, I told him who they were and he said, well he said, ‘All I can do,’ he said, ‘I’ll walk up the front,’ he said, ‘If they’d like to go down to the rear turret but,’ he said, ‘If I catch you,’ he said, ‘I’ll have to say. I’ll have to say.’ I said, ‘That’s fair enough.’ Now, perhaps this is unbelievable but they all went down. They went down into the rear turret in turns. Three of them. And they even say now how, how Bert’s cousin got in there because he wasn’t young of course by now. How the hell he got in there is beyond belief. But you’ll perhaps, you’ll find this out, they all came out crying. I’ve been and sat in the rear turret. They all deserved a VC. It was an awful job. An awful job. You were sat with nothing. It’s awful. Terrible job. Terrible. So that was really, so we’re now big friends and all the rest of it and so they all now want to come to the new one at Lincoln and have a look at the one of Bert’s name on the —
DE: On the wall. Yeah.
RI: On the wall. Yeah. They do.
DE: They’ll be most welcome.
RI: Yeah. Yeah.
DE: Yeah. I’ve not, I’ve not been inside the Halifax at Elvington. I’ve been inside a couple of the Lancasters.
RI: Yeah. That’s funny. I never have been inside a Lanc ever in my life.
DE: Have you not?
RI: No.
DE: There’s not meant to be as much room is there as there is in a Halifax?
RI: I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. There was very little. They could get another thousand feet in height roughly. But their bomb load was a little bit more. But there weren’t a lot in it. A lot of the bods that had flown in both reckoned that the Halifax was the better of the two. I don’t know. I’ve no idea. I don’t really know. They were there just for a job weren’t they?
DE: Yeah
RI: They weren’t designed for comfort. They were designed to do a job weren’t they?
DE: Yeah. You were talking a bit earlier again before we started recording about how the Lancaster has been remembered and the Halifax less so perhaps.
RI: Yes.
DE: How do you feel about the way Bomber Command has been remembered over the last seventy years or so.
RI: Well, it’s got you see, even at Elvington now there’s some young men how this should be done now. They’ve rebuilt a Mosquito up there and they were hoping to get, we became very friendly with the bod that was building it. He reckoned it had cost him his marriage. And he used to get some young engineers from right from down south to come up there in the holidays and help him to rebuild this thing. And his second wife, Sotheby’s have an aircraft sale once a year and she, for some reason or other went to see them at this whatever in, up in Leeds. And they said to her, ‘If he wants to sell it we’ll get, could get him a million for it. But,’ but they said, ‘If he can get it airborne we’ll get him two million.’ But of course he won’t because he’s had bits to rebuild this thing from all over the world actually. I haven’t been for a while so it’ll be finished now I presume. But what a nice man that rebuilt this Mosquito. Yeah. Yeah. So you know and so it’s all progressed from there now and a lot’s happened since of course finding where the aircraft crashed and all the rest of it. Do you want to go down the route now? Or —
DE: Yeah. Fine.
RI: Or later?
DE: No. If yeah if you have a story to tell about that then yes please. Yeah.
RI: Well, when, I don’t know how this started now. How the hell did it? [pause] Well, we went. I went myself and Hollis’ went to Germany to Bert’s grave on several, three or four occasions because there are in Reichswald Forest there are several 578 bods buried. And when we used to go there’s always brought two little wooden crosses and we used to not only go to Bert’s but go to all the others and put a little cross on them. This was on Reichswald Forest, and so that went on for several years and I then started going down. I lost my wife and I started going for, the RAF have got some places, recuperation places. I don’t know what you’d call them. There’s one down on the south coast, there’s one in Scotland, and there’s several of them. I went to one of them down on the south coast and some bod down there got in touch with the National Lottery. This all sounds, but however it’s true and eventually I hear from a lady in, the National Lottery then had an office in Nottingham in that time of the day and I had a letter from them. Would I be, did I want any lottery funding for anything that I might? So I said, ‘Yeah, I do really.’ So, however the outcome of that was they sent me a thousand pounds. The National Lottery did. So I gathered together and there’s pictures now of this. There’s pictures of them all somewhere in this somewhere which I’ll give you before we go too much further.
DE: We’ll find them.
RI: We’ll find them. Yeah. So I then, so we gather, so we got this funding from the National Lottery but at the same time a German who worked in Germany, an Englishman who worked in Germany who was aircraft mad had discovered in Gelsenkirchen where there was some aircraft, aircraft had crashed. Now, he’d gone as far as sorting out that there was a Lanc and a Halifax. Now, they couldn’t decide which bits belonged to which except all the crew of the Lanc were killed and in our case only the rear gunner was. Now, we’ll get to this bit in a bit. The rear gunner was still in the, in that, in the back bit of the aircraft. And what happened was this, this bod who was Air Force mad but worked in Germany he, he found out that going back a little bit he found out that they’d been widening a dyke and they’d found all these bits of the aircraft and the turret with the body of Bert still in. Or what remained of him. And also he found out that there’s an old man with dementia, well it’s all fell foul now, but there’s an old man in that village that had got a photograph of it when it first came down. Before it, and actually there’s good photograph of Bert in it actually. Or what remained of him. But he won’t part with it. But they’ve promised us that they will part with it eventually but when the eventual will be I’m not, I’m not quite sure. But this is, this is part of the epilogue of course and this refers to it. This is what I’ve been meaning to give you, and let you look at. Now, I think, I think you’d better take the recorder off.
DE: Ok.
[recording paused]
DE: Recording now. You were saying about petrol.
RI: Yeah. Well, we were aware, I was aware that, and of course we all were, all aircrew members that once you were on ops you could get a petrol allowance for pleasure. And so far as I’m aware, and I’m certain we were the only people in the UK that got actually a petrol allowance purely for pleasure. Not involving business. So that, that, I never registered the thing. I never taxed it or anything. I’d no driving licence or anything of course but nobody bothered us in those days. There was nobody about. So when we were shot down they sent a list which they’re all here still. Those lists are still here. You’ll see them if you want to. Those lists told my father what, what behind, what was mine. There was a bit of money. There was several things and they would be forwarding this stuff to him. But there was no mention of a car. So of course my father apparently panicked and then rang about this car because there was a bike. That got sent back but there was no mention of a car. So my father actually went up to Burn I think eventually and some of the bods there had pinched the tyres and the battery [laughs] So eventually they got it squared up and my father was friendly with a garage and they got some tyres from somewhere and managed to get it. And so the Ministry wrote to him to say that the car was available for collection. So that’s, so it was here. When I got home it was there. All taxed and ready and on the road it was. Yeah. So that was another thing out of there really that I hadn’t told you about which it’s only you coming here that disturbed all this information.
DE: Made you think of it. Yeah.
RI: It has. Yeah. Yeah.
DE: So it wasn’t a bad life when you were on the station on ops then. You —
RI: No. No. Because I used to go out. We used to, we got in with several pubs locally. We used to take the squeezebox down. Never had to buy any drink because we just used to use the squeezebox and that was it. Yeah. No. That was good really. Yeah. From that point of view. Yeah. Yeah. You never thought of what might happen I think did we? You just, your name just got rubbed off [coughs] excuse me. Your name just got crossed off when you didn’t get back. So yeah. That was it. So that, that was the end really of the of the escapade until, a lot of it came to light with the grant from the Lottery Fund and when we all went and met among these others. Well, there were pictures of that too. We met this Roman Catholic padre and a member of the press came around and wanted to take pictures of us and all assembled. It was, it was remarkable how they found bits and pieces of the thing really but, but there was I don’t know if you’ve seen it yet there’s a vague picture of the remnants of the turret.
DE: I did see it. Yeah.
RI: Did you see it? Yeah.
DE: A black and white one.
RI: Yeah, it is. Yeah. So whether we shall ever get any more we don’t know but there’s nothing so sure that in my mind that that was actually him. Yeah. Yeah. So, but they took us for a ride around the old oil refinery at Gelsenkirchen where we were shot down and it’s a lot bigger now than it was then of course. But whether it was all in vain I’m not quite sure. I don’t know. I remember us all saying at the end of it all we’ll never buy anything Japanese or German ever again.
DE: Right.
RI: And look at us now.
DE: Yeah.
RI: We’re all riding about in them now.
DE: Yeah.
RI: But we all said that you know. We’ll never buy anything from Germany again. Yeah. I know the March reflection, you know. You’ve brought all of these reflections up. The March. Now really it’s unbelievable that we were straggled out for miles but the cold weather. I mean we couldn’t, I couldn’t live through it now any more. I suppose you’d [emphasis] struggle perhaps.
DE: I’m sure I would. Yeah.
RI: With twenty to thirty below. Yeah.
DE: Yeah.
RI: Yeah. But we were lucky because the Germans marched us through the day normally and at night time locked us up in farmyards and things. But we were a bit lucky because John Callingham, he was, he was of farming stock so he was able to, where a few nights we did manage I think he managed to get us milk and all sorts of things. Having been a farmer’s son and the rest of it. So that was very useful really this extra milk and things like that. Yeah. And then we, yeah, so there we go. So what else you would like to know about I’m not quite sure.
DE: I think we’ve ticked off just about everything that’s on my list.
RI: Good.
DE: Yeah [pause] No. So unless you have anything else that you’d like to tell me I’ll draw the interview to a close and thank you very much.
RI: Well, only that I’ll just get a couple of the books out and show you. Not that you’ll want to read them.
DE: I’ll just pause this then.
RI: If you ever do want to see them you know where they are.
DE: Smashing. Thank you.
RI: I don’t, you know one way or the other.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ronald Indge
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dan Ellin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AIndgeRC180131
Format
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01:24:29 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
Great Britain
Poland
Belgium--Brussels
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Worksop
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Luckenwalde
Poland--Tychowo
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Description
An account of the resource
Ronald Indge was a wireless operator on 578 Squadron and became a prisoner of war after his Halifax aircraft was shot down.
Upon leaving school, and unable to obtain employment in his chosen career, his father arranged a bound apprenticeship with a joiner. Attracted by the glamour of the RAF, when almost eighteen, and without his parent's knowledge, he travelled with a friend to Sheffield and they both enlisted in the RAF. Entry was initially deferred until Ron was at the required age. He describes his route through training, on successful completion of which, his crew joined 578 Squadron. In February 1944, Ron’s aircraft was attacked from behind, killing the rear gunner. With limited control of the aircraft, the remaining crew was forced to evacuate and Ron was immediately captured. Following interrogation, he eventually arrived at Stalag Luft 7. Whilst there he met a fellow prisoner playing a piano accordion. Having learnt to play in his younger days, Ron describes how further instruments were obtained and the formation of a concert party which enabled them to entertain their fellow prisoners. However, they were also required to entertain the German officers which caused some concern to Ron, but they received meals in return. There was a known collaborator amongst the prisoners, and care had to be taken to ensure no loose talk gave away any information. In January 1945, the advancing Russian army forced the evacuation and the prisoners were forced to march to Stalag 3A. This took several weeks in temperatures as low as -20 degrees Celsius, and improvised sledges were used to pull weak prisoners. Following liberation, Ron returned home to discover his mother was terminally ill. He spent some time on general duties before being discharged and with support from the RAF, was able to complete his apprenticeship. Contact with some of his crew has been maintained in conjunction with 578 Squadron Association, with several visits to the grave of the rear gunner. The site of the crashed Halifax, with the body still in position, was located when civil engineering was carried out in the area.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1944
1945
578 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
entertainment
final resting place
Halifax
military living conditions
prisoner of war
RAF Burn
RAF Riccall
RAF Yatesbury
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
the long march
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/711/11142/AJohnsonM160830.2.mp3
df35dcf4afe3dc4c1e866f46c7c804e2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Blair, John
John Jericho Blair
J J Blair
Description
An account of the resource
38 items. The collection concerns John Jericho Blair DFC (1919-2004). He was born in Jamaica and served in RAF from 1942-1963. He flew a tour of operations as a navigator with 102 Squadron from RAF Pocklington. The collection includes numerous photographs of him and colleagues, several photographs of Jamaica, a document detailing his life and an interview with his great nephew Mark Johnson.
The collection also contains three interviews with Caribbean veterans including John Blair recorded by Mark Johnson.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Mark Johnson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Blair, JJ
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Chris Brockbank and today we are in Witchford in Cambridgeshire and the date is the 30th of August 2016. And we’re speaking to Mark Johnson about Flight Lieutenant John Blair DFC and his life and times. Mark, could you just introduce how you fit in to this and the earliest recollections that you have of John Blair.
MJ: So, John Blair was my great uncle. My grandmother’s brother. And he was born in Jamaica. In the parish of St Elizabeth which is a rural parish and in those days extremely rural. I first met him, well I had met him as a child but I have no memory of that. The first, the first recollection was meeting him when I moved to Jamaica with my family. With my parents and my brother. I was aged eleven, and Uncle John was really the sort of senior figure I would say, in the family. He was highly respected by everyone. Former RAF course, a qualified teacher, a lawyer and did a little bit of farming on the side. And I can remember as kids we’d go to his house and they had the sort of what we called the veranda culture. You know, you would arrive at someone’s house and the adults would immediately be presented with a tray of rum and coke. And ice would be clinking away in little glass containers. And we’d run around in the back garden as kids. Play with, with our cousins, his children. And he was always very very kindly. Fairly serious. Very quiet man. Almost Victorian in a way but without the severity and just the sort of impressive figure. I didn’t know anything at the time about his air force service but I did spend a lot of time in the region where he’d grown up because we have other cousins down there. Relatives of his who still farm down there. And so I spent a lot of time in St Elizabeth as a child during the school holidays and got to know the area quite well. So I’ve got a good sense of what it might have been like when he was a child. A lot of the structures there were built almost of wattle and daub back in those days and they had thatched rooves. Very reddish. The soil is very red because of the Illumina content. There’s a lot of, or there has been a lot of bauxite and illumina mining there in the past decades. They grow watermelons, peanuts. A lot of goat farming. Mango trees scattered around. And then fishing is quite important down on the, on the coast. Areas like Treasure Beach. A lot of fish is consumed. Lobster. A lot of bammy which is a bread made from [pause] from a root, of what’s the name of the root again.
Other: Cassava.
MJ: Cassava. Cassava root. Which is poisonous unless properly prepared. Achi. Cashew from trees. And so it’s a really good, good way to grow up. Healthier perhaps then they realised. I think people felt impoverished. And they were impoverished. In 1919 when he was born there was no electricity. No such a thing as an aeroplane flying past. No trains. Very few vehicles. A lorry would have been quite a sight. But a good old fashioned healthy lifestyle with a good diet. And that shows in the people. The people are physically robust. And Uncle John himself with a very successful athlete. As were many of his relatives. So, now he, he didn’t grow up with his natural parents. He was sent to live with my grandfather. And he was raised by my grandfather and grandmother. So he was raised by his aunt. And my grandfather was a headmaster of a rural school at the time. In the parish of St Mary and Uncle John attended that school as a child. And I’ve got a photograph of my grandfather. Another very Victorian gentleman. And another separate image taken at the same time, in the same chair, of my grandmother. And it’s the sort of image you would associate with a Victorian grammar school. Dark suit and tie. Serious face. Not quite holding the bible in their laps but almost. You wouldn’t be surprised if they had been. And Uncle John. I don’t have a photograph of Uncle John in the school but I do have a picture of the school with my grandfather and his class. And most of the children are in short pants, shirts and bare foot which was quite notable. So they’re running around at the ages of eleven or twelve. I think that most of the schools in rural Jamaica in that period were a single room. And you would have all the children sitting in that one room working on their various assignments as handed out by the teacher. Now, Uncle John started school a few years earlier than he was supposed because his older sister was also a head teacher in a small school and she made sure that he was in the class. And then the school inspector used to come by occasionally. He was an Englishman. The Jamaican school system was managed by the Colonial government and was actually a very good system, they were – Jamaica had the highest level of literacy in the Caribbean and it was a higher level of literacy than the UK at that time. I think somewhere around an astounding eighty three percent if my memory serves me correctly. And so English school inspectors would come by and Uncle John would be pushed into a cupboard when the inspector arrived just to make sure he wasn’t discovered because he was only three and a half or four and the age in those days was, I believe it was a bit older. I believe five or six. So, so those are some of the sort of early memories. Things I was told by him or things that I witnessed and I can extrapolate from those experiences and have a sense of what life might have been like when he was growing up. There would have been a certain class division at play. If you were a nurse, a doctor, well you wouldn’t, you were less likely to be a doctor in those days but if you were a nurse, a police officer, a school teacher — an educated member of the middle class, you were quite separate from the mass of people in Jamaica and there would be certain tensions I suspect. They’ve always been there and they probably existed in those days. There may be certain attitudes that your family might have towards working people. And there’d be certain attitudes that working people would have towards you. And I think that’s significant. Becomes more significant later when you look at the selection process for the RAF and who joined the RAF as opposed to those who didn’t. So I’ll mention it now in passing but we’ll come back to that when we get to that stage of the things. But it’s important to recognise that class and race and mixed race family background are factors in the story. So those are some of the earlier pieces of information. John Blair decided to follow in his, the footsteps of many members of his family, if not most members of his family and become a teacher. So he went to Kingston where he attended the teacher’s college at Mico which was a highly regarded regional institution. Produced many many teachers. Many of whom ended up in the UK in fact. A large number of Jamaican educators were recruited to the UK education system. And he was at Mico along with one of his cousins. No. Correction. His brother, Stanley. His brother who won a track medal there and John ran as well and was very successful as an athlete. Later running for the RAF’s track team. And he made friends at the time with Arthur Wint who was a Jamaican Olympic gold medallist in ’36. Yeah. And they joined the RAF at about the same time and maintained that friendship. They trained together in Canada. I’ll come back to that later. So he was very much into athletics and sport and building up a good circle of like-minded friends. He graduated as a teacher and he started teaching in Kingston. I know exactly where he was teaching. It’ll come back to me in a minute. There a small airstrip there today near downtown Kingston.
Other: Greenwich. Greenwich Farm.
MJ: Greenwich farm. There’s an airstrip nearby which I think is actually the same as the name of the school.
Other: Tinson.
MJ: Tinson Pen. He started teaching in Tinson Pen and he was teaching there when [pause] is that incorrect? [pause]
CB: We’ll stop just for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: Starting again.
MJ: So while he was teaching in Kingston war broke out in Europe. People in Jamaica were very aware of Hitler, Nazi Germany and the politics of Europe. The school curriculum given that we were a British colony at the time focussed very heavily on European history in any case. But the radio would broadcast clips of Hitler’s speeches. Of course the Queen’s annual address, or the King’s address in those days would have been, was widely listened to and still, the Queen’s Speech is still highly listened to today. And I’m assuming there was an annual address in those days but certainly there was a lot of awareness and a very, in some circles a closeness to the British system and the Mother Country as it was known. In other circles, hostility. There was a very active and strong independence movement already entrained. Communism of course was a factor around the world and there were left wing thinkers active in the Caribbean. But there are others who were very pro the colonial system. A lot would probably have depended on the circumstances of individuals and types, types of exposure they’d had. Family. Family attitudes and education. Incidentally, in case I forget to come back to it later many of the people who ended up joining the RAF from the Caribbean subsequently after the war became active in The Independence Movement. And in fact the later Prime Minister of Barbados Errol Barrow was a flight lieutenant in the Royal Air Force. Michael Manley, I believe, was a member of the Royal Air Force. And many others. Dudley Thompson who was a Minister of National Security in the PNP government in the 1970 ‘s was was also a former flyer. And many many others. In fact the former RAF volunteers took up a whole range of positions in society. Not only in politics but in business. Karl Chantrelle who I worked with at the Jamaica Telephone Company, later Cable and Wireless was a president of Cable and Wireless and he had been a decoder. A Morse signals decoder on the ground in in the UK as a member of the RAF as well. So they joined the RAF for reasons we will come on to in a moment. They performed very, very well. RAF reports into the performance of black Caribbean and other Carribean aircrew commend them as being of a high standard. And then they came back home in many cases and used that experience and exposure and perhaps the confidence that they’d developed through having those roles to move into lots of key positions in local society and become the engine, I think, I sense part of the engine of the final steps towards Independence. So coming back to 1939 John Blair was working in the school. Teaching there. And he heard Churchill’s famous speech post-Dunkirk. This would have been 1940 now. We will fight them on the beaches and and the fields and landing grounds and so forth. And I was very moved by that. As were many people. And a lot of the volunteers, I have spoken to other Caribbean volunteers and a lot of them site that as, as a trigger but one of the triggers that caused them to volunteer. So you asked the question earlier why did they volunteer specifically for the RAF? Well not all Caribbean people volunteered for the RAF. There were fifteen thousand who volunteered for the merchant navy who were rarely mentioned. Of whom a stunning five thousand were killed during the war. So we shouldn’t forget them. But those who joined the RAF primarily appear to have been motivated by three, possibly four, different factors. I think there was a genuine concern, a well-founded concern about what would happen in the Caribbean if the Nazis invaded and defeated Great Britain. And the assumption was that given the fact that America wasn’t yet in the war that the Caribbean would become a Nazi colony and that black people in the Caribbean would return to slavery. And you’ve got to remember that when John Blair was born in 1919 he would have co-existed with people who would have been elderly but who would have been born under slavery which ended in Jamaica in 1834 and so he very likely sat in the laps of older people who had actually been slaves. And I knew John Blair for forty years of my life so that the link with slavery is very very immediate and not at all irrational for a Jamaican in 1940 to fear a return to the system that only ended ninety six years earlier. We also, I think there was a lot of sympathy, empathy for, or with the people of Europe who were already under the Nazi heel. The Poles had immediately been subjected to forced deportations, slave labour in Germany. Rumours were already spreading about the massacres that were taking place in Poland and other occupied countries. So the gen, this was not, you know a US invasion of Iraq or any of those things. This was this was a much more serious and significant thing that really did threaten people all around the world. I think we lose sight of that. So it was a world war in the truest sense. Another motivation of course was that these were young educated men who would never have had an opportunity to join any of the British military forces had war not broken out. There was a colour bar in effect for officers. That colour bar was lifted after the Battle of Britain because of these heavy casualties caused during the Battle of Britain but also Bomber Command had had very heavy casualties in its first forays over Europe. And so there was an official lifting of the colour bar which, when in place, had said that only British born men of pure European stock could become officers. It was not lifted at that time in the army or navy. And so the air force which had always drawn in, tended to draw in a sort of better educated, technically savvy adventurous spirit even for British society was just a no-brainer for Caribbean men who had some education and ambition. And, and to add to that the RAF was actively recruiting in the Caribbean. There was a recruitment drive that was launched across the Caribbean and also in West Africa. Was not very successful at all in West Africa. Only about fifty candidates who were successfully processed from West Africa but five hundred aircrew approximately. Four to five hundred and about five thousand ground crew were recruited from the Caribbean alone. Which, given that the population of the Caribbean was only certainly the British speaking Caribbean was only a few million people at the time was actually a very large number. The Caribbean had done other things. There were drives to raise funds to support squadrons. So there was for example a Jamaica squadron which was funded by contributions from the Caribbean nations which flew from Marham. And Uncle John as it happened ended up flying with Ceylon Squadron which was funded from the island of Ceylon which is now Sri Lanka. So there was, there was considerable amount of Commonwealth activity. Of course we know about the South African volunteers, we know about the Australians, the new Zealanders, the Indians who came over in very large numbers. And it was all part of the ethos of one — loyalty to the crown to an extent although many of the volunteers were hostile to the crown as a, in principal. Certainly fear of the consequences of a Nazi victory, sense of adventure and opportunity to further themselves in a way that never would have existed were it not for the outbreak of war. So I think that sort of summarises the main motives as I sense them. So he applied at Park Camp in Kingston. And he was accepted and he was then sent back home. He went home and awaited his movement orders. And he left on the fish truck from St Elizabeth to Kingston once he got those orders. And one of my, my uncles remembered saying goodbye to him as he climbed on to the back of the fish truck which was covered in ice. And he, my uncle could remember there was broken glass on the ground for some reason where the truck had turned and he thought that was where the war was happening. He was only about three or four at the time. And so Uncle John went all the way to Kingston on the back of this lorry which was quite a rough, bouncy ride in those days. Very hot. And then was put on board an American ship in Kingston Harbour which had been, which was enroute from somewhere else in the Caribbean. And one of the anecdotes he recounted was that when he boarded the ship along with I think about a dozen other Jamaican volunteers they were sent below. Down a ladder. They went down a ladder. And they saw hammocks hanging there so they started arranging their gear and grabbing hammocks hooks and a sailor came down. An American sailor said, ‘Not down here you —’ N-word, people. ‘Keep going down.’ And they ended up in the hold. So these were officer volunteers or officer candidates volunteering for air force service. They were put in the hold and they sat on metal floors in the hold as the ship drove, sorry, sailed westwards from Jamaica to Belize. And in Belize they picked up more volunteers. Volunteers from Belize who flew and they were put in the hold as well and then they sailed to the southern US. I think to New Orleans and they disembarked there and they were all put on a train to New York and things began to look up now. They spent some days in New York. They went to the Empire State Building. Took a photograph at the top of the Empire State Building with a candidate from Belize called Leo Baldorames who became a pilot. And from there they proceeded by train to Canada. To Moncton. M O N K T O N which was a large training centre in Canada. And they went through their initial basic training there which was essentially the same as basic training in any military force. Polishing lots of bits and pieces. Learning to march and to drill. Learning how to fire a weapon. It would have probably been the 303 Lee Enfield rifle and some people were filtered out even at that stage. So there were people who didn’t get through. They then went to their initial aircrew training. Well their initial RAF flying. Later training. Which involved selection and segmentation into different sort of competencies. And Uncle John was a, as a school teacher did very well on the maths test and so he was selected to be a navigator. Arthur Wint , his good friend was selected to be a pilot. And that was the, there were black Caribbean fighter pilots. There were, for example, Tucker who flew with the South African ace Sailor Malan. There were many of those. There were bomber pilots flying Lancasters, Halifaxes. And other aircraft and several navigators including one from British Guyana called [pause] it’ll come back to me. Very famous man who ended up on the BBC as the voice of Captain Green in the animated series that used to be on. Anyway, that’ll come back to me. So they were training in Moncton and they were sent off to various locations to do advanced courses after they’d done their basic. All very sophisticated. Then he, they had these regular medicals that they had to undergo. So it wasn’t just one medical. You had a series of medicals and as it happened Arthur Wint and John Blair had been out on the town. The medicals were not announced in advance. You were just told at 8 in the morning, ‘John Blair. Medical.’ And they’d been out in the town until 4am. Struggled in through the fence and that was the day that he was summoned for his medical which he then failed and he was washed out of aircrew. And he talks about everybody moved on. Left him behind. He was left in this huge hangar with about four hundred other people who had been left sitting on bunk beds. Who had all been washed out? Hundreds of men were washed out and being sent back to the UK because they were all UK volunteers who had been sent to Canada for training. And John Blair was now listed to be sent back to the UK although he had never been to the UK in his life and knew nobody there. And he would be sent there not as a aircrew as he’d planned but in some other capacity so he was pretty depressed about that. So he went in search of the medical officer, senior medical officer. Found him. Explained the story admitted to the fact that he’d been out drinking the night before and the medical officer said, ‘Ok. Look at this card. What do you see? Look at these colour dots. What do you see?’ And passed him as fit and he was allowed to re-join the training scheme but at this point he had lost all his West Indian colleagues. They’d all advanced and he hadn’t so he was now thrust into a group of British trainees. And this was really his first experience with British people on the same level because in Jamaica he had always, he had encountered British people but they had always been colonial representatives of some type or part of the managerial class. And so he’d never, you know bunked with and socialised with British people before and he found that interesting. But he got on very well and he never encountered, he said he knew of racism being encountered by people. He personally never encountered it. Although others I interviewed did so there certainly was racism but he was fortunate. And I don’t know what, I think it was just probably lucky. It certainly existed. I think he was lucky. It’s also possible he didn’t want to speak about it. But I sensed that he was, I sensed that if it happened it didn’t stay with him. He hadn’t, he hadn’t kept it. So he had Scotsmen, he had Canadians, he had all sorts of people alongside him now. He went and finished his navigator training. Because then on graduation put on to a ship, a convoy and they sailed in the direction of Iceland, avoiding the U-boats. Far to the north and then down into Liverpool. And from Liverpool he got on a train and sailed or took the train through the heart of industrial Britain which was an eye opener. He had had expectations of a green and pleasant land and the wet grey reality was a shock. But he ended up in Yorkshire which he spoke of in the highest sort of terms. With the highest praise. The Yorkshire people showed no sign of hostility whatsoever. In fact they were amazed that a black man, in fact he’d reunited at this point with Arthur Wint and another couple of trainees who he’d met again. And they’d go into pubs in Yorkshire and they’d be bought rounds immediately and people wanted to know what on earth they thought they were doing coming all that way from sunny, the sunny Caribbean to fight in Europe. And were very impressed that they had done it. So he seemed to feel very much at home there and as we’re hearing a little bit later he ended up marrying an English girl that he met. So they were then moving into the final stage of training which was to familiarise themselves with the terrain around their future bases in Yorkshire. He was going to fly from Pocklington. And also familiarise themselves with the Halifax Mark 3 which they’d never flown on before. And they were then, well at that stage I think they were formed into a crew. And that was, that simply involved sticking a couple of hundred people into, into a large hangar and having them pick each other. The pilot would walk around and just look at people’s faces. And John Blair was standing there knowing nobody. And a Canadian pilot walks up to him and said, ‘Will you fly with me?’ And that was it. He was picked and he was the only Caribbean person in that crew. And this is the distinctive feature of the RAF. Whereas the Americans had the Tuskegee squadrons which were, you know black squadron and they had black units. Sometimes with a white officer. The RAF integrated the crews from day one. There was never any separation of people on race or culture or creed of any form. And I think it’s actually incredible when you, when you think about what the situation had been merely two years before. And the fact that the RAF and its members were able to adapt so quickly to an integrated environment. And it’s something that I think is a lesson for society. Something which we somehow lost in the current era. And there’s a lot to be learned from the way that was done. What a crisis brought on in those days whereas a crisis today seems to drive people in the opposite direction. So he was now a member of a crew. They had finished their orientation and they were off on their first mission bombing Germany and other parts of Europe. He spoke at length to me about the experience of flying operationally over Europe and about the ethical dimension of the bombing campaign and it was clear to me that he had mixed feelings. They made best efforts to hit the targets that were assigned to them. But of course that was challenging. The technology wasn’t what it is today. There was wind to take into account. They were bombing from twenty or even a thousand feet or even higher. There was the effect of fires on the ground. And uplift that would, updrafts that would result from that. So the bombs could fall all over the place. And these were very large bombs in some cases. Two thousand pound cookies or even larger. Some of the biggest bombs ever produced in terms of conventional munitions. And they knew that they were bombing German cities. They were trying to hit city centres generally but they were aware of the fact that the strategy was to destroy the houses of the factory workers and that meant destroying factory workers in the process. And their families. So, so he talked about that. He knew what they’d been doing. I think that the, at the end of the day the feeling was that the war had been started by Germany. If not by the German people certainly by the German government. The German people had voted for that government. People forget that Hitler was an elected politician. He got the highest share of the vote in 1933 at thirty four percent. The German people had never rebelled against that government even when it had invaded all of its neighbours and other countries. And there were very few strategic or operational alternatives left for Britain. Isolated as it was from the continent by The Channel, to strike back. And Britain did its best with the resources that it had to fight a war and bombing was, strategic bombing was one of the only choices. So I think that’s where he left that argument. That was his view there. He was certainly very proud of his service. He flew a full tour over Germany of thirty three missions. They targeted all manner of sites. Not only cities but also submarine pens, they targeted Heligoland. Heligoland, off the coast of Denmark which was a large anti-aircraft bastion. They targeted a few sights in France but primarily it was Western Germany. The Ruhr and areas like Cologne and so forth. There were occasions on which the aircraft was hit. They flew back on two engines on one occasion. On three engines on another. His squadron and he flew operationally by the way from December 1944 until March 1945 on this first tour of thirty three missions. During that period one or two Ceylon squadron suffered fifty percent casualties in terms of aircraft lost. Four of those aircraft went down during John Blair’s first two weeks with the squadron so during his first two weeks of operations a quarter of his squadron went down. Most, most of the crew were killed. The chance of bailing out of a Halifax was twenty percent and the chance of bailing out alive out of a Lancaster was ten percent at that time. Because of the Lancaster had a smaller hatch. Escape hatch. They had to face many challenges. The weather was a huge challenge. Icing. Navigation over Europe in that era. You had as much chance of being killed by a mid-air collision as you were flying in a bomber stream with a thousand aircraft around you in the dark with no lights. And only a few aircraft had any form of radar. So that was, that was in fact it was so deadly that German night fighter pilots would use the trail of burning RAF aircraft on the ground as a marker of where the bomber stream was. He also had to deal with enemy night fighters equipped with upward facing cannon in the nose. They had to deal with the flak. The anti-aircraft fire. Searchlights. So all manner of threats and he was doing that sitting in a, at a desk on the aircraft plotting courses, giving instructions to the pilot about turns coming up and turns to be taken and altitudes to be arrived at while under fire and trying to ignore the noises around him. Aircraft exploding occasionally in the air nearby. The loss of people they’d met on their base. On a nightly basis. And at the end of that tour he landed on from his final mission. He was met by his wing commander on the ground who presented him with, it wouldn’t have been the actual medal I suspect but presented him with notification of the DFC. Distinguished Flying Cross. And he was then successfully accepted into Pathfinder Squadron. So he volunteered along, Arthur Wint also volunteered for Pathfinders and they were both accepted into the Pathfinder force. And they started training with the Pathfinder force and then the war ended. And John Blair opted to remain with the RAF. He transferred to Transport Command and he ended up flying casualties home from, well he didn’t end up there but at that point he was flying casualties home from what was then Malaya. I think this would have been the second crisis. Possibly the first but I suspect it was the second. And he met his future wife who was a senior nurse on the transport aircraft. And as John Blair put it, ‘I was working while she was gallivanting.’ They were flying out to Malaya with no casualties on board. Her work would begin when they flew back. So I should think she was sticking her head in the cockpit and having a chat. And they married and they had two children. John Blair Junior and Sarah. And this was in London. They subsequently moved back to Jamaica after Uncle John left the RAF in 1963. The RAF paid for his legal education so he became a lawyer before leaving and then he practiced law in May Pen in Clarendon. In South Central Jamaica. And there he remained until his death about ten years ago. Fifteen years ago. His children returned to the UK. They both, in fact I should have mentioned this to you before they both live in London.
Other: And Margaret.
MJ: And Margaret. The reason I haven’t mentioned it is that John Blair didn’t speak of his service to anyone. And in fact when I, when I interviewed him I managed to get him on tape because we’ve got the tapes, for about four hours. And the first question I got from family was how on earth did you get him to talk about it. And I think the answer to that is I was in the local defence forces in Jamaica and that gave me, the uniform service gave me that connection with him that nobody else had. And so he felt I would have some inkling in what he was talking about. So, so I’m not sure that his children would know a great deal. They’d obviously know about his personal life after the war but I’m not sure they have much inkling what happened during the war years. So those are my memories sort of verbatim. Or off the top of my head. I don’t know if you have other questions.
CB: We’ll take a pause there.
MJ: Yeah.
[recording paused]
MJ: His Gazette.
CB: So my question from that thank you very much is if we can just fill in the bit. When John came back to the UK he would have to be familiarised in the British weather and operations so where did he go?
MJ: So he, sorry can you pause it?
CB: Yeah.
MJ: Sorry ‘cause —
[recording paused]
CB: Right. We’re just recapping really on his return to the UK.
MJ: So, well this wouldn’t have been his return because he hadn’t been to the UK previously so this is leaving Canada. Coming to the UK. Following his training in Canada. He was initially posted to an Operational Training Unit in Kinloss. RAF Kinloss. Where, if I’m not wrong he would have been crewed up. And six out of the seven crew members met there including the pilot who picked, who picked the crew. And although Uncle John remembered it the other way around — as the bomb aimer joining them later other research suggests it would have been the engineer, the flight engineer that joined them later. After they’d gone through that process there they were flying on the Whitleys. They were transferred to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall. R I C A L L where they converted to the Halifax 3 bomber. And at this point they’d already been assigned to 102 Ceylon Squadron which flew from Pocklington. So once they’d finished their conversion to the Halifax 3 they arrived in Pocklington and as Uncle John put it on arrival there they were told there’s your plane, this is the target tonight. Off you go. And they were in the thick of things. Following the [pause] his tour the entire crew volunteered or requested transfer to the Pathfinders and were accepted. I’m not sure whether the process was they were accepted or whether they were identified and asked. I suspect it’s more like the latter. And they were in the process of training on Lancasters when the war ended. John Blair, the award for his Distinguished Flying Cross was published in the London Gazette of Tuesday 4 December 1945. But he remained in the RAF until 1963 as I mentioned earlier. Initially he, post war he served in capacities with Transport Command which I haven’t asked him any details of. And he then did a period from 1950 at Martlesham Heath where he was involved in experimental high altitude bombing trials or tests. And in November of the same year he was posted to the Colonial Office where he was tasked with looking after the interests of Colonial servicemen in the army and air force. In parallel with his career as I mentioned he studied law. He joined the middle temple, inn of court and was called to the English Bar in April 1954. Then in August 1954 he was posted to Transport Command. May have been re-posted to Transport Command because I’m pretty sure he was in Transport Command immediately after the war. In 1946. And he was involved in transport flights then in 1954 and through to 1958 including flights to Christmas Island during the very controversial nuclear tests and to destinations such as Australia, Japan, Hong Kong, Aden in the Middle East. I think he was stationed briefly in Aden and Malaya where he was involved in casualty evacuation back to the UK. And as I said earlier that’s where he met his wife Margaret. On one of those flights. Then in 1957 the piston engine aircraft was replaced with the de Havilland Comet and in 1959 John was appointed chief navigation officer of 216 Squadron flying Comets until 1961 when he was posted to the Air Training School. He then left the RAF and returned home to Jamaica in 1963. He joined, where he joined the Jamaica Bar Association and he served as Deputy Clerk of Court for the parish of Clarendon. In June 1966 he returned to aviation and this time as the Deputy Director of Civil Aviation of Jamaica and later acted as Director of Civil Aviation from 1975 to 1979 when he retired. He, however continued to serve when needed as Jamaica’s Inspector of Air Accidents while also running a small legal practice in the town of May Pen. Other interesting points are that in 1995 John Blair was invited to represent Jamaica at the fiftieth anniversary celebrations of the end of the war held in London. Along with several former members of Jamaican and other Caribbean aircrew. Including his close friend Johnnie Banks who was a navigator in Mosquito aircraft. They marched from Greenwich to Buckingham palace. And he recalled that people were standing twenty deep and in fact I asked him when speaking, when he spoke about that about some of his thoughts in terms of his motivation and I’d like to quote a paragraph. Literally they were the last words he spoke to me when he said, “While I was fighting I never thought about defending the British empire or anything else along those lines. I just knew deep down inside that we were all in this together and that what was taking place around our world had to be stopped. That was a war that had to be fought. There were no two ways about that. A lot of people have never thought about what would have happened to them in Jamaica if the Germans had won. But we certainly would have returned to slavery. If a youngster today should ever suggest that we had no business going to fight a white man’s war I would just kick him where it hurts the most.” John Blair DFC, died in Jamaica in 2004 aged eighty five after a prolonged illness. His first operational aircraft MA615 Zulu survived the war but was struck off charge on 7th of October 1946 and scrapped.
CB: Thank you very much. That was a really good, thorough background and I know it will be very valuable with the other documentation that we’ve got. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: With your background Mark there are a large number of other people that you’ve been involved with and I wonder if you’ve got one or two snippets of that. That could be really interesting.
MJ: Yes. Several. Several snippets. A few of these are people I spoke to while they were still alive. Others are based on research I’ve done but those people pointed me in the direction of. So I’ve read other interviews or transcripts or books by people. I picked out some I think are representative and I want to deal with the issue of racism as well which I think is important. So the first is Johnny Banks who I met at his home in Kingston in 2004. He flew with a Mosquito squadron. I do have the number. I’ll have to look the number up for you in a minute. Out of an airfield near Cambridge. I also have the name of that in my records. I’ll have to dig that up in a moment. The anecdotes that he gave me one of them was the fact that around the first time he walked in to the officer’s mess on arriving at his squadron. And several people at the bar turned their backs on him and one man started to walk out of the mess because this was the first time a coloured officer had every appeared in this particular officer’s mess. And immediately, within seconds the squadron leader jumped up and said, ‘Now, all of you get back to the bar and stop this nonsense. I’ll have none of that in my squadron.’ And so he was he was then bought a beer and then from that point onwards had no further problems. But that was the initial response. He had, he was a navigator in a Mosquito which is a two, there are only two crew in there. So a pilot and navigator. Navigator bomb aimer was his function and he had one experience when the bomb wouldn’t release and the pilot said, ‘Well we’re going to have to ditch. We can’t land with a great big set of bombs underneath.’ In fact I think that a Mosquito carried the same bomb load or more than a Lancaster. If I’m not wrong. It was capable.
CB: It could take four thousand pounds.
MJ: it could. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
MJ: So he, - they were over the North Sea and he looked at the North Sea and knew there would be no survival. It was winter and he said, ‘Well I’m sorry. I’m not jumping out of this perfectly serviceable aircraft.’ And they descended, descended, and he kept trying to release the bomb and finally when they’d come quite low, still over the sea it actually detached from the aircraft. So they deduced it must have been ice that was the problem and they were able to land safely. So it just shows the sort of knife edge that they were flying on. Then there was Cy Grant whose name I forgot earlier. He was the the volunteer from one of the many volunteers from British Guyana. He was shot down over Holland on his third op in a Lancaster and parachuted to safety which was a rare event in its own right. And landed in a Dutch farm. And he hid in the field all night. He wasn’t injured. And no idea what he was going to do as a black man in Europe. And eventually was spotted by the farmer who was working his fields and the farmer took him to the farmhouse. Fed him. He had a bath. He had some cuts and bruises that the farmer’s wife looked after and then they chatted about things and decided that the safest option for everyone was for the farmer to call the Dutch police. So they called the Dutch policeman came along on his bicycle and stuck Cy Grant on the bar and they cycled back in a very romantic fashion to the police station. And the police then called the German authorities who sent a couple of soldiers over to pick him up. He wasn’t abused but he was stuck in solitary confinement. Then he was one of the first black aircrew ever to be shot down. This was 1943. 25th of June 1943. He was at 103 squadron flying from Elsham Wolds in North Lincolnshire. And they were on a mission when they were shot down. Their target was Gelsenkirchen in Germany. He, so as I said, was stuck in solitary confinement. And he was then photographed by the Germans and the photograph was published in the German newspapers over the caption, “An RAF airman of indeterminate race.” As Grant was in fact mixed race. He was dark but he had some European and Indian blood in him. He was then taken Stalag Luft iii and at every point of course he imagined the next move was going to be his last. He didn’t imagined that the Germans would take care of a black airman. He was taken to Stalag Luft iii and at the entrance to Stalag Luft iii he was met by the commandant whose name I’ve recorded [pause] who was Colonel von Lindeiner. His full name was a little bit. Here it is Colonel Frederick Wilhelm Gustav von Lindeiner Genannt von Wildau. Who was a real old school German officer of the best type. And he met Grant at the entrance to the camp which was quite unusual and he had in tow a couple of his guards and he said, ‘Now, where are you from?’ And Grant said, ‘I’m from British Guyana.’ And he said, ‘Wonderful. I’ve been there. Lovely place.’ ‘Now you and you look after this man.’ And the guards took Grant in. And Grant saw the commandant on many occasions. He was there for two years in Stalag Luft iii. And every time the commandant saw him he saluted him with his riding crop. And he never had any problems with any of the Germans. The only problem he had was with an American airman from Texas who simply couldn’t handle the concept of a coloured officer. It just didn’t fit in his universe and he used to insult him every time he saw him. Call him the N word and so forth. So, so that was that was interesting. Grant stayed in Stalag Luft iii. The time of The Great Escape he obviously didn’t participate but he was there when they were taken on the Long March at the end of the war. Through the snow to move them away from the advancing Red Army. And he spoke of seeing SS men preparing to defend a wood and he was very intimidated as he walked past the SS men. He said they were huge, well fed men dressed in white and very well equipped and he just found that very intimidating. But he was, he was eventually rescued by the Red Army and then they sent him back to the west. Another person who had a similar experience was Johnny Smythe. Johnny Smythe wasn’t a West Indian. He was actually from Sierra Leone. He was the only volunteer out of ninety from Sierra Leone who was successful. The reason why many West Africans failed was that they had, had malaria within the last twelve months. If you’d had malaria in the last twelve months you didn’t qualify for RAF service and by definition most West Africans therefore were ruled out. Johnny Smythe had two interesting stories to tell. The first was when he arrived he trained in the UK and when he arrived at, the name escapes me. It’ll come back to me. At his UK location he was assigned a batman. And the batman he said was everything he’d grown up to expect of a British batman and he instinctively called his batman sir. And the batman turned to him and said, ‘No sir. It is not you who calls me sir but I who calls you sir. Sir.’ And they got on famously after that. And the batman had been the batman to a member of the royal family who had trained at Henlow. Henlow?
Other: Yes.
MJ: RAF Henlow. Trained at Henlow previously. So there was quite a culture shock for Smythe. Smythe was shot down. He ended up at Stalag Luft i and he recalls the Red Army tanks actually breaking through the wire and he said that the tanks had women soldiers on the back. Riding on the back who smelled of violence he said, they just. The violence. They were reeking of violence and he was then in stages transferring. They were treated well by the Soviets by the way and they were transferred to the west and returned to allied forces. Another little anecdote. Errol Barrow who was, who became the Prime Minister of Barbados was serving member of aircrew and his gravestone actually reads, “Flight Lieutenant Errol Barrow. Formerly of the RAF.” And then in small print below that — “And former Prime Minister of Barbados.”
Other: That’s interesting.
MJ: Yeah. There’s a one little further anecdote. The last one which I think is this gives you a little insight into the day to day reality of the attitudes raised and so forth and so forth. So there were at least three Cuban volunteers who flew with the RAF during the conflict. Although I was unable to identify their names but I have found Cuba RAF shoulder flashes online. And there was a Canadian who had contact with the Cubans in Jamaica. A Canadian called Tom Forsyth who was stationed in Jamaica with one of the Canadian regiments during during the colonial period, during the war. And he tells this story. Says they were playing softball against the Canadian troops. Forsyth, I should say was very very in tune with Jamaica and Jamaicans whereas some of his colleagues were not. And so he witnessed this particular incident. So the Cubans were talking exclusively in Spanish. Talking away at a great rate. And one of our men was up to bat and had one strike on him. He turned to the Cuban catcher and said, ‘Why can’t you talk a white man’s language?’ At the same time the pitcher shot a straight fast one across the plate and the catcher remarked in perfect English, ‘That’s two on you brother.’ The more things change the more they stay the same so.
CB: You mentioned earlier Neil Flanagan.
MJ: Yeah.
CB: So what can you say about him.
MJ: I don’t know Neil well. I’ve met Neil at one event in London that I attended. In fact I gave a short presentation there on my uncle. On the topic of my uncle. And so Neil was the, and still is I believe the president of the Ex-Servicemen’s, the West Indian Ex- Servicemen Association. And seemed very supportive and very active. My prime contact there is actually a former colleague of mine in the Jamaica Defence Force called Paul Chambers who is the secretary of the Association so it was he who introduced me to Neil. So I’ve only had the one.
CB: Who was the man who nearly hit Lincoln Cathedral?
MJ: So that was Billy Strachan, Strachan.
Other: Strachan.
MJ: Strachan yeah we say Strachan in Jamaica.
Other: Strachan.
Other 2: Strachan.
MJ: Yeah. Yeah Strachan in England. And he, he was a pilot. He had actually started out as a wireless operator, and he was, was, was able to switch to flight training, and so I think he did, he did several missions as a wireless operator, switched to flight training, became a pilot and then he flew if I’m not wrong it was fifteen missions as a pilot. And it wasn’t Halifaxes or Lancasters. It might have been Stirlings. And he had a very near miss taking off fully laden, heading for Europe and thought he had cleared Lincoln Cathedral and when he asked his flight engineer to confirm that, the flight engineer out pointed that the spire of Lincoln Cathedral was just at that moment passing in the mist about three feet from their wing tip. And that was it for him. He was not shy about admitting that he just couldn’t do any more. I think, I think he’d done a total of about twenty five missions altogether. Fifteen as a pilot. But I stand to be corrected on those numbers. But it was in that sort of region.
CB: Good. Thank you very much.
MJ: You’re welcome.
[recording paused]
MJ: There may be different perspectives.
CB: That’s what I mean.
MJ: Oh yes.
CB: I’ll pass it around.
MJ: Yeah. Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re now on part two where we’re going to talk about the topic of the racial perspective because we have a situation where people from Jamaica clearly looked fundamentally different from people from Europe and not really understand what was the social fabric from which they were coming. So Mark if we start with you your perception therefore you described a bit earlier. What were, what was the structure of society? As the hierarchy.
MJ: So I think it’s very complicated. Because there’s, you could cut it and dice it in different ways. You’ve got, there’s a racially obviously element in that the bulk of the population in Jamaica – eighty, ninety percent are of black African origin. Many of them are what people would describe as pure African people even today. And traditionally of course they arrived as slaves. At the other end of the spectrum — you have those whites who were either landowners or in some position of governance and then there was a tier below them of overseers because many of the landowners didn’t actually want to live in Jamaica. They had property there but they found it too arduous so they appointed largely Scottish and Irish overseers who were of course it was a rough and ready time but more likely to integrate with the local population. With the slave population. And that integration had a sexual dimension which is very rarely discussed. My perception, having done a fair amount of research into the topic is that in fact I have facts to back this up. So I can use as an example my family. So my origins on one side are from the product of a slave owner named James Blair who originated in Ayr in Scotland and who was the fourth son of James Blair of Dunskey who was a distant descendant of James the 1st. He arrived in Jamaica, and in the mid-1820s and he first took up position as a Scotsman as one of his overseers. So he was running a sugar estate belonging to an Englishman. He later acquired his own lands in St Elizabeth. And an estate called Hopeton. Now, James Blair had sixteen children with three slave women but the interesting fact is that the slave women he had children with were not his property. They were the property of the adjacent estate. And the owner of the adjacent estate had a number of children with slaves who were Mr Blair’s property. So what and this is over a period of years and what, by the way those women were all twelve years old at the time they first conceived. So what appears to have been happening was that when a female slave child reached a certain age – twelve, thirteen. The owner of that slave would let his neighbour know that the time was now ripe. And that person would jump into his horse and buggy. Ride over to the adjacent estate, have relations with the slave girl who was somebody else’s property and then that favour would be returned in due course. And from that I surmise, this is all educated guesswork that an important motive was probably not to undermine authority. So you don’t want to have, you know ripped a girl from her parents on your own estate, had children with her at a young age — even by the standards of the day was a young age and then have to deal with, first of all you’ve had relations with this girl who is your slave. Secondly you’ve got the girl’s children running around. And thirdly you’ve got her brothers and sisters and parents on your estate as well. It will just create too complex a situation to manage. So they had this routine in place where they, they made this transaction. And it leads me to wonder whether, to an extent and, given human nature the slave market wasn’t as much a place of assignation as it was a commercial market. That men would go to the slave market with two things in mind. Acquiring property but also acquiring attractive young girls who they could use or have others use and get their own benefit from that in the future. So, so I think this is never it’s not in any of the books that you read at school. Ok. It’s never really spoken off but given what we know of human nature and given what we know of the world today it would astound me to learn that that was not an important motive for slavery. And that leads you to think that a lot of the feeling that remains in society because Jamaica is still a society. Even you know hundreds of years after the abolition of slavery in which slavery is mentioned routinely. In which animosity towards white people on the part of black people is frequently uttered and in which there is a stark divide between the mixed raced primarily middle class part of Jamaica and the primarily black working class. And I think that a lot of that stems from that time when people were seen as being favoured. People were seen as being exploited and an exploitation that goes beyond labour. It’s not about the exploitation of labour. It’s the molestation of an entire people by another people. And even though it’s been erased as a clear memory that feeling remains. So everything about Jamaica that needs to be understood in terms of the war and volunteering and attitudes towards volunteers as many people did not like the volunteers. A lot of black Jamaicans thought they were traitors. A lot of that has its roots in the period of slavery and can’t be understood without that context.
CB: So now fast forward to 1930s and the time when John Blair was at home.
MJ: Yes.
CB: At school. What was the social hierarchy in the schools?
MJ: So in the 1930s not a lot had changed from the 1830s. So, we were still a colonial nation. We still had British masters. A white man and this was, this was true when I was a boy. You know, when I, when I returned to England I was intimidated by the postman [laughs] because he was white and I’d grown up in a country in which if you were white you are superior unless you just happened to be a drunk. With the odd exception but generally speaking white men are superior. And that’s how they’re regarded and that would have been very much the case I suspect in the 1930s, that the white men were the teachers, the lawyers, the doctors, the government ministers or whatever they were called in those days the secretary for this and the secretary for that, and of course representative of the Commonwealth Office or hierarchy. The governor general. The governor. So, so it would have been this and this is one thing that I’m not being negative I’m actually, as I said earlier — this is one thing that amazes me about the transformation that occurred because they weren’t, they weren’t say going through a transformation that would be needed even today for say, you know a black underprivileged boy from London to join the RAF and become an officer. That would be a challenge today. They were going through a much more challenging process than that. Ten times more challenging. As a, and it was also of course a time of course when hierarchy and status were much more important than they are today and face and honour, and these sort of concepts. So you had a very stratified society. It wasn’t just stratified as black and white. There were other dimensions. In addition to having African and mixed race and European people you had Indian and Chinese populations. And in some islands and on the mainland you had native American populations. In Guyana they had what they called the bush Indians who were basically not even included in the census but who formed a large part of the population. So you had divides there. And the Chinese and Indian populations had taken up different positions in society when they arrived. The Chinese had, and both had arrived post slavery and had been brought in by the British because many former slaves, African slaves, refused to work on the British estates any longer. The Indians, to a degree sort of remained in that labour version for a long time. They were still cutting sugar cane a hundred years later. Some of them had gone in to business but in the main these were lower class Indians. Working class Indians who would only cut sugar cane in India and were continuing to cut sugar cane. The Chinese on the other hand didn’t adopt those positions for long at all. They very quickly moved into owning shops.
Other: Shopkeepers.
MJ: Yeah. Primarily and other forms of business. But shop keeping initially and even today anywhere you go in Jamaica you will find Mr Chin running the shop and he’ll have three or four Jamaicans guys working for him. And Mrs Chin will be doing the accounts. And they keep it in the family. Coincidentally I was in Mauritius a couple of weeks and it’s exactly the same arrangement and Mr Chin runs the shop in Mauritius too. And so very similar.
Other: And Mr Chin runs —
CB: And so —
Other: Sorry.
CB: So just moving on we’ve also got here Maurice Johnson who is Mark’s father. So it’s a great pleasure to see you here as well. So from the generation shift.
MJ2: Sure. Sure.
CB: How did you see, what was the structure of society in the 30s.
MJ2: Yes.
CB: And into the 40s?
MJ2: Yes. I was going to say that the Chinese [pause] they came as indentured labour and much more progressive and business oriented. As a result on a public holiday if the Jamaican hadn’t shopped it would be a problem now. If the Chinese man hadn’t opened his grocers shop he’d starve. Just a simple thing like that. Today there’s a big debate going on about reparations for our, should we — David Cameron came down not long ago before he left office and parliament tackled on him on that reparations. Some people have not accepted that there’s a need for that. They want to move on. It’s a big debate. I’m not sure where I stand but what, what, what’s the population is very concerned about this. Who is going, how are you going to get reparations. Who’s going to receive it? How’s it going to be distributed? Who will benefit? You know. But the whole question of colour — it’s the people who came to the RAF for example in the officer strata would have the benefit of being properly educated. Sometimes colour —
Other: Lighter complexion.
MJ2: Lighter complexion, texture of hair, all those little intricacies but so they would naturally be more confident in you know, how they presented themselves. The people who would probably come into that what do you call it the ground crew order wouldn’t have that benefit. I mean that started from the whole slave scenario which Mark outlined about the interfacing with the light complexioned girl. That is still very important there, you know. The texture of your skin.
CB: So the structure of society was partly based on a racial —
MJ2: Yes or a body.
CB: Component. That is to say the more manual workers were the blacker ones.
MJ2: Yeah.
CB: And the middle class were the more —
MJ2: Yes.
Other: Light ones.
MJ2: And if you had a mixture would reflect in the hair.
CB: Right.
MJ2: So hair was, not so much now, it’s dying out but the texture of your hair was more important than your complexion.
CB: Ok. So what are we talking about texture of the hair?
Other: Curliness.
MJ2: Either curly or –
CB: The length of it?
Other2: Yes the —
Other: Straightness of it.
Other2: Straightness of it.
CB: Right. Ok.
MJ2: A mother of an attractive girl would be very reluctant to have, they would call it unruly hair. You know. Or unmanageable hair.
CB: Right.
MJ2: As well as with racial but it was very complicated and islands differ as Mark said. Barbados – straight line between white and black. And black were much more educated than white. In Barbados, Barbados white persons were merchants but not very savvy with Latin. You had people in Barbados speaking Latin.
CB: So you both mentioned —
MJ2: For orderly society.
CB: Yeah.
MJ2: Boring in a way but very orderly.
CB: You both mentioned mixed race so how –
MJ2: Yeah.
CB: So in Barbados for instance how does that get differentiated between black and white?
MJ2: Not much mixture. No.
CB: Ok.
Other2: I mean they get on well together but hardly any, not like Jamaica where you have —
CB: Quite a lot of mixed race.
MJ2: A variety of colour schemes.
CB: Ok. Now we’re also lucky to have Sidney McFarlane here as a trustee of the Lincolnshire Bomber Command Memorial Trust, and born in Jamaica. So Sidney how do you see this point about the education and the splits that we’re talking about. Particularly in the Blair context. So in the 30s and into the 40s how was the education sectored? Were certain types of people in certain types of school or did everybody go to the same school?
SM: Oh it all depends on — family incomes start to play an important part in this because the 1944 Education Act in the UK didn’t extend to the colonies. Where everyone could have a free education from beyond primary school to secondary school. So unless you won a bursary or a scholarship you left school at what we call elementary school or primary school. Some colleges offer half bursary and if your parents could afford it Kingston Technical College which had a night school. You could go there. And in fact I was, part of my education was Kingston Technical School. But society in Jamaica much to what Mark and Maurice had just said it’s split between racial lines. The lighter your complexion the better your chance you have of getting a job or whatever. Your background. Parents. I was fortunate that because of my connection with the church I remember my first job was a result, and this was during the school holidays a letter from my priest to a store and I was employed. Another person of my ilk or complexion without that would not be even looked at because all the people in the store were light skinned and I was dark. So that played a very important part. Certainly pre-independence all the top jobs were always a Jamaican could rise to deputy but he couldn’t go beyond deputy. All the top jobs were by an English colonial civil servant who was in charge. It was something that I, growing up as a lad I always sort of noticed. With aspiration you’re thinking I’m never, I’m never going to be the Chief Education Officer because that post was reserved. And this is why I think a lot of Jamaicans even know we are independent have a certain amount of resentment how things have developed. But certainly the racial element — you mentioned Barbados. Barbados is what we used to call and still call the island of all of us and we have poor whites. But they could have integrated and they haven’t moved on to society. To other colonies it’s reversed where the whites are on top in Barbados. They have the big strongest colony of sort of white people who are just ordinary people. Haven’t sort of made it.
CB: Right. Going back to mark now. How do you see in this case John Blair from the society of Jamaica and how he was in the hierarchy there? Then coming to Britain to join the RAF. What sort of racial or foreign aspect, considerations were there in his reception shall we say?
MJ: So John Blair in Jamaica prior to leaving Jamaica was a solidly middle class educated man. A teacher as I said earlier. And self-confident and highly regarded by the bulk of the population. He then travels to Britain. Certainly the experience on the American ship would have been a wake-up call. And in fact I need to quote Cy Grant who spoke about this particular issue. Cy Grant said that when he arrived in Britain it was the first time he realised that he was black. Because in the West Indies he was regarded as relatively light skinned. And suddenly on arrival in England it was brought home to him that he wasn’t. He was just another black man. And I suspect that John, and John Blair described himself at one point as just a little black boy caught in a certain situation in the barracks. So, so this recognition of one’s own blackness I suspect was an awakening for many. Others arrived and I mean there were some very dark skinned aircrew and ground crew who would have had no doubt that they were black throughout their lives and they would have probably had less of a shock. But then what I, what I imagined from my own experience of life is that all of those men would have actually found themselves bound closer together then they had been previously. Some of the class distinctions between them might have softened a little bit. Certainly for the duration of the war because now they were all part of one minority. However, John Blair is a very and many of the others being an educated man, being a thoughtful man, a very good communicator he was certainly the kind of person who wouldn’t be prevented from engaging with his white peers and colleagues. And, and certainly he adopted many British mannerisms. He became very, very RAF, you know. Talking about kites and prangs and all that sort of things and seems to have integrated. And to a very great extent while remaining Jamaican. He was always Jamaican. He came back to Jamaica in the 60s but, but he seems to have done a good job of integrating and being accepted. So it’s a barrier but it doesn’t necessarily have to be an insurmountable barrier unless you make it one yourself.
Other: That’s right.
CB: One of the interesting points about the heavy bomber crews is how they were the family.
MJ: Yes.
CB: So they did everything together.
MJ: Yeah.
CB: Particularly if they were all NCOs.
MJ: Yeah.
CB: How did John Blair feel about his crew and relationships?
CB: He was very attached to his crew. His pilot was Canadian. Ralph Pearson. John Blair, even fifty years on, one of his first comments was the fact that when the war ended they were broken up so quickly that he was unable to track his pilot down before he returned to Canada. And he actually on an RAF flight ended up in Vancouver where Pearson was from and went to the home address. The family had moved on and he searched for him and couldn’t find him. He was very upset about that even fifty years later. He did tell another anecdote. He was walking down the street one day. A black man in London. And a policeman tapped him on the shoulder and said, ‘Excuse me, sir.’ and he immediately thought he was going to be arrested and then he realised it was one of the rear gunners. The tail gunners.
Other2: [unclear]
CB: From his aircraft.
Other2: Ok.
CB: And they had a reunion in a pub.
Other2: Fantastic.
CB: But his first reaction was fear because he was wearing a police uniform. So he was very attached to the crew and there was no sort of racial element to that. That they were just the crew.
CB: And now going to Maurice. What’s your perception of, as the nephew, what’s you perception of his acceptance of the RAF and by the people in the RAF.
MJ2: Yes. And that would have started me observing him from when I was in my teens.
CB: Right.
MJ2: Come back on leave.
CB: Yeah.
Other: Although he didn’t share much I realised he was a deep person. Very observant. Very intelligent. And when I came to live over here and still here and he was the one who sort of facilitated and my brother who came ahead of me. We really looked up to him. Almost like a bigger brother. He, we had the same approach to leisure time if I can put it like that. We’d meet him in London. He’d show you around, show you the ropes, have a drink. No airs about him. Still didn’t tell us much though. I only learned that because of your research. All those things about him. We knew he’d been through a lot of danger but I really admired him and he was my mother’s youngest brother. And she almost adored him. I, later on in life when he came back to retire, you know. Well came back to do law and then retired I was very upset about his whole health deterioration. You know, became almost a shadow of himself and in fact I think the last time tears came to my eyes when I had to take him in to the nursing home where he had his last days. And that was really you know, yeah. He took it stronger than everybody else but you know that really hit me.
CB: Having returned to Jamaica did he, after many years in the RAF because he joined in ‘42 and left in ’63 – did he feel in some way a fish out of water when he got me back?
MJ2: Not really. He didn’t become secluded because he did interface with some of our ex-RAF personnel although he wasn’t, I got the impression he didn’t like going to — they have a place where they have a club almost. Where is that?
Other2: [unclear] Place.
Other: [unclear] Place.
[unclear] place. The Legion.
Other: Yes.
Other: Fairly close to the camp, right?
CB: British Legion Club.
Other: British Legion. Didn’t get the feeling that he was relaxed there.
Other2: No.
Other: Couldn’t put a finger on it. Possibly. I don’t know if I should say this but some of the other people in there I don’t think they saw active service. They were pretending to.
CB: Yeah.
Other: And I think he he took a dim view of that.
CB: And he’d been decorated as well.
Other: Yes. I don’t think he was being snobbish but —
CB: He felt at a disadvantage.
Other: Yes. He didn’t feel at home there.
CB: Yeah.
Other: That’s the impression I got.
CB: Ok then changing to Stanley. You’ve seen people from joining the RAF in the mid 50s who have had experience of lots of things. How many people did you come across who had served in the RAF who were West Indies born?
SM: A great number actually because most of us emigrated here just after Windrush. Post Windrush. In fact, I came to England with four other youngsters in our sort of late teens, early twenties and they all went in to the air force eventually. Some migrated since. I came at the back end of National Service and was called up for National Service. Most of my mates escaped it but one or two joined voluntarily later on. But moving forward from those days although there are still problems of racism I think because of the air force law, the Air Force Act and Queen’s Regulations it was subdued or oppressed. Or if you handled it rightly people would be taken to task. One of the problems we had with some of our countryman is that West Indians tend to be a little hot headed and don’t suffer fools gladly. They’d have their rights and lose it because they’d try and punch or be aggressive to a senior NCO. Someone with an extra stripe on their hands and you could end up on a charge and I spent a great deal of my time actually doing some mentoring. Some of my fellow West Indians to let them develop a reasonable career. Because they were getting into trouble by just being their gestures or shouting. Could quite easily in those days if somebody has two chevrons on your arms and you haven’t you could be in trouble. Because a corporal could put you on a charge. It could be very dangerous. I think I was very fortunate that my wife then was my girlfriend when I got called up insisted we got married before I went in. And my issue sometimes I was upset but I didn’t take it out aggressively because I was always thinking about what would my wife say if I’m chucked in to the guardroom. So I was always very careful and able to manage it in a way that my career prospered. So I completed thirty years without being charged for any offence. Having gone through the ranks and got commission at a time, which was a bit of luck and management. And having the ability to look at a strategy how to bypass certain people like the sergeant who tried to give me a hard time. Didn’t want to give me a trained trade a wind up about certain administrative procedures. And my wife, then I went home and my wife says to me, I said, ‘I’m not going back.’ I’d paid thirteen, thirteen shillings it was from Bath to, to Shepherds Bush on a long weekend. We used to get what we called a command stand down every month. Where you have Saturday mornings off so you can leave on Friday. And I was put on duty clerk and I was told, just as I was about to leave that I would be on forever more. I noticed up until that time there was a weekly roster. And I thought this can’t be right. So when I got home and explain to my wife. She said, ‘You’ve got to go back.’ I said, ‘Well I’m not going back.’ She said, ‘You’ve got to go back. There must be somebody else you can speak to, you know. Above the sergeant.’ So I got back and on a Monday morning they should say to me this was a wind up. There’s a new roster out. You did it last week. But nobody said anything. So I went off to early lunch as usual still really quite worked up. So after lunchtime because part of your duties as key orderly you do the teas. In those days the youngest or junior man in the post does the tea. You can’t do this today in today’s air force with an airman. There was a flight lieutenant I took his cup of tea in to him and I said, ‘Sir, can I speak to you for a moment, sir? I’ve got a grievance.’ And he said, ‘Sit down McFarland. What’s the problem?’ And I explained to him about this duty clerk thing and he said, ‘Tell Sergeant Wilkins to come in and see me.’ Well the sergeant went in and when he came out I was supposed to be preparing to take what they called a trade test because I was supposed to be on the job training as apart from going on a course. Formal course. And he came back and he opened the bookcase and he showed me all the Air Ministry orders and all the other bits and pieces and he said, ‘What you need to know for your trade test can be found in these books. You’ll be trade tested in a week’s time.’ So he was setting me up for failure wasn’t he?’ There was no time for preparation. Well what he didn’t know that you know I had other strategies. There were other people that had done the courses and I did a lot of research. And in the week’s time I took the test and passed it. And when you passed the trade test you had a choice. Either you go clerk administration or clerk personnel and part of my research when I was preparing for the trade test I had to go to station headquarters where you look after personal records, careers and so on and that part interested me. Dealing with people. So I said, ‘I’ve done equally well in personnel. I’d like to transfer to personnel.’ Because that got me away from the sergeant in to a new environment and that’s how I overcame that. But that was thanks to the wife really. Where a lot of young, a lot of us weren’t married and were single. You could have said the wrong thing to the sergeant you were in the guardroom so you’ve lost your case.
Other: Yeah.
SM: So from the early days I was still unhappy with the air force for a number of reasons as a National Serviceman. But nonetheless you were being given incentive to sign on because it was post-war and they were building up the service again. And so you had financial incentive. So by signing on my marriage allowance went up so my pay went up from two pounds fifty a week to seven pounds fifty a week with marriage allowance and signing on. You get an extra railway warrant for being a regular and an extra week’s leave. So everything was an improvement. Signed on for three years and then things were looking good. First child was on its way. Signed on for five years but still think, insisting that I’m coming out. And then it got a change. I was posted to, for one year, an unaccompanied tour in Bahrain which I tried to get out of and couldn’t. So I went and said look this is like real punishment. I might as well throw in my lot with this organisation. And thereafter I signed on for twelve years and so it went on.
CB: Let me just go back to this comment about this sergeant and what he was doing to you. What was the basis of his wind up? Was this a, was this is a racialist? Is that what you’re saying?
SM: Well he didn’t do the wind up.
CB: Or the others?
SM: This is difficult to tell. The others did it but he was aware of it and he did nothing about it.
CB: Right.
SM: And Mark said earlier about leadership and he didn’t have the its either deliberate and you expect a senior NCO to have better leadership qualities. It was either deliberate because he was a racist or B he shouldn’t have had the rank that he had because he should have said on the Monday morning you’d better tell McFarland that he’s no longer duty clerk. It was a windup. He let it go on.
CB: Yeah. Sure.
SM: He let it carry on you see.
CB: Because some windups are actually nothing to do with one’s origins.
SM: Absolutely. Absolutely.
CB: So I’m just trying to differentiate between one of those practical jokes that goes wrong and the possibility that this was a racially motivated.
SM: The moment I got back on the Monday morning after the long weekend he should have said to the corporal, the lads stood down. They had a new roster already prepared but it just wasn’t up on the poster.
CB: Right.
SM: And he said you’re on this until the next man is posted in.
CB: Right. Going back to Mark now. You’re going back, if we may, to John Blair. As a final point here. To what extent do you think he felt throughout his RAF career that he was differentiated in some way with other people in terms of his rank or his opportunities or whatever? Because he was in till ’63 still as a flight lieutenant.
MJ: Yes. I asked him that question. He was very clear in his response that he never felt that he ever suffered any sort of racism in the RAF. Hence his loyalty to the organisation. And although his rank didn’t change there were other members of black aircrew who achieved quite impressive ranks at the same time. So there certainly wasn’t an institutional bias. I think there was a Coastal Command officer who became a group captain. And there was a prominent gentleman at Marham who became a, he was a squadron leader.
CB: There were several wing commanders.
MJ: Several wing commanders. Ulric, Ulric Cross, Ulric Cross.
Other: Ulric. Became a squadron leader.
MJ: Ulrich became a squadron leader.
Other: DFC and Bar. DFC and Bar.
MJ: Yeah. And the most decorated of the black aircrew.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
MJ: And so I don’t think they were in any way, you know being favoured.
Other: No.
MJ: You got promoted based on circumstance and performance and other factors. I think being in Transport Command might have limited his prospects to an extent. So no. He was, he was very clear that he had never felt that.
CB: Ok. Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Mark Johnson
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-08-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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AJohnsonM160830
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01:33:57 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
United States Army Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Mark Johnson reminisces about John Blair. He discusses family life in rural Jamaica as a mixed-ethnicity person, highly respected by everyone. He was a qualified teacher, a lawyer, and a farmer. Reminisces other Caribbeans who volunteered and served in the Royal Air Force and other armed forces during the war. Mentions Winston Churchill’s and King King George VI’ speeches; stresses the ethical dimension of the bombing campaign and discusses the differences between American and British air forces in dealing with ethnical minorities. Mentions Arthur Wint, Jamaican Olympic gold medallist who joined the Royal Air Force and became a pilot.
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Jamaica
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Pending revision of OH transcription
102 Squadron
103 Squadron
African heritage
aircrew
bombing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
military ethos
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kinloss
RAF Pocklington
RAF Riccall
Stalag Luft 1
Stalag Luft 3
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1050/11428/ANicholsonA150922.2.mp3
41b5887b8283872933d2ab6dd5c15c94
Dublin Core
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Title
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Nicholson, Arthur
A Nicholson
Description
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An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Arthur Nicholson (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 51 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Nicholson, A
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Transcription
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AN: My name is Arthur Nicholson. Ex-flight engineer, Bomber Command. 51 Squadron. I’ll start this story from leaving school, starting work and then going into the forces. I left school in 1939. August. Just before the war began. And finding work was not easy at that time but I went into an engineering factory manufacturing printing machinery. I went as an apprentice engineer. Well, as you know the war started in September ‘39 and that was the week I started work. Well, for the first year we carried on manufacturing printing machinery but then changed over to manufacturing various armaments such as breech blocks for anti-aircraft guns and bullet making machinery and predictors for anti-aircraft. For the flak department. After that, well that created the fact that I was then in what was classed as a reserved occupation. So my life in the wartime would have been working as an engineer in that factory. And nobody could get me out of there. I learned later on that the only way to get out of there and to become in the military was to be, to join aircrew. Well, I was working with a team of four older fellas. And was very disappointed in the amount of money I was receiving and the amount of work that I was doing which was more than these other four were doing all together. So on my eighteenth birthday I decided I would leave this job and go and volunteer for the RAF. So I went down to Leeds. Put my name down to join aircrew as a flight, as an engineer. It didn’t matter at that time whether it was ground staff or aircrew but they said being in a reserved occupation you can only go into air crew. So I said, ‘Well fair enough. That’s me joined.’ So they said, ‘Oh yes, you’re alright.’ So it was a quick interview and a medical and they said yes you’re fit enough to go at the time. To start with. I said, ‘Well, how long will it be before I’m called up?’ He said, ‘Well, six to eight weeks.’ So I said, ‘Oh well fair enough.’ So I went home and told my parents that I was joining the Air Force which they weren’t very happy about because my elder brother had already been in the Air Force for a year and was flying as a navigator. And he was flying some of the heavy bombers but he never got to go on operations before he was killed in an accident. But so, but that’s later on. It took nearly nine months after me volunteering in January. It was September before the authorities were able to get my release from that reserved occupation. And suddenly in September I received a letter to say I’d been accepted and to report to St John’s Wood such and such a day. And from that day on that was the RAF. The usual thing — you went down to St John’s Wood. Completely strange place. You know, met at Lord’s Cricket Ground and that was my first day in the Air Force. Which was quite an interesting day. You just went from one to room to another being interviewed, being examined and being tested for various things. And halfway through the day somebody brought you a mug of tea and a teacake and that was your sustenance for the day. Eventually we walked away from there. There was hundreds of other lads coming in. Just the same. Little suitcases or bags on their back with just personal belongings. And some corporal or sergeant mustered possibly two hundred of us and said, ‘Right. Follow me.’ And we set off and we walked down the roads of St John’s Wood and we finished up in the swimming baths. The bloke there said, ‘Right. We need to know whether you can swim or not.’ He said, ‘Right. All them who think they can swim get in at this, stand at this end. We’ll give you a pair of trunks.’ They all give us a pair of trunks. ‘The ones who can’t swim stand over there on the right. And the ones who think they might be able to get down to the shallow end.’ So I thought well damn it all. I wasn’t a good swimmer but I didn’t know what was the results of not of being able to swim so I said, ‘Right. That’s it.’ So when it came to me turn I dropped in at the shallow end and had to swim to the deep end. You had to do a full length of the pool at St John’s Wood to be classed as a swimmer. So I struggled and I managed a length [laughs] without drowning and that was that. So, right that’s it. You’re a swimmer. Passed A1. From there on we were taken away and to some ex, I don’t know if it was an ex-block of flats or an ex-hotel or what it was. He said, ‘Right. Find yourself a room in there and go to,’ such and such a place down the road here, ‘For some food. And then, and then you’ll be called in the morning at probably half past six or 7 o’clock to register and muster with the people who you’ve made up friends with.’ Well, I walked into this room and there was one other bloke in there. Then two more came in. And they were three Geordies. They were all from Tyneside. And I could hardly understand a word they said. They were all quite strong Geordies but we got on reasonably well together. Decided which bed we were going to sleep in and where to put the little bit of stuff that we had with us. From there on I went, we went and had food and then came back. We went together. We all had to have a haircut the next day and everything else like they usually do. And I I have always been used to doing a fair amount of walking in the area I used to live in. But two of these lads had always gone on the bus everywhere and they didn’t like walking [laughs] But I made friends with these three people and I stayed with those three people through the basic training at Bridlington and Usworth up in Durham somewhere. And then when we transferred from there it would be possibly eight to ten weeks after basic training which was the usual physical training. Rifle drill, marching, saluting. Everything else. From there then we got the time to go down for the engineering course at St Athan’s in South Wales. And I was still with these three same people all the way through that course which was, I think, then a six month course. And it was very intensive, and the things that we learned was, it was very good. There was always the same discipline. The church parades. Marching in. Waiting for food there. One thing and another. But it was exciting. And it was all new. And I was basically a mechanical engineer but what was taught there was all kinds of the details of hydraulics and electrics and various other bits and pieces. And you had to learn a little bit about, a little bit about navigation. The stars. A bit about oh [pause] yeah the weather. The clouds and everything else. You had to learn about, be able to write the weather forecast damn here. Be as good as Paul Hudson on the telly. But that went on for, for six months until two weeks before I should have — oh in one period in that we were supposed to be selected to what kind of aircraft we would be flying. And you had to put your name down. Well, I fancied at that time to keep away from Germany so I volunteered for Coastal Command and I wanted to fly on Sunderlands. Well, that didn’t come off. So eventually I found that, I’d been told I was going to be flying in Handley Page Halifaxes and was sent on a course to Liverpool. To the manufacturers. We spent a week, or more than a week in the manufacturers learning as much as you could about the individual bits of an Halifax. Well then, two weeks before the end of the engineering course I got a sudden, a telegram while I was in a class. And I was dragged out of the class to the orderly office and told that my brother had been killed [pause] I had to go home.
[recording paused]
AN: Well, the process there was I had to hand in all my equipment at RAF St Athan’s and I was given a train ticket to get back to Otley in Yorkshire the best way I could. So obviously it was a bit of a round about route. To go into London first. And then from London up to Yorkshire and then a local train in Otley. It took eleven hours did that. And at that time more or less all the trains were fully occupied so half the time on that journey I was sat in the corridor on my kit bag and just wondering what my mum and dad would think. Well, the bit I’ve left out of here is after starting work and me coming in to the Air Force I was in the Air Training Corps. And my brother was in it as well. He was a bit brighter than I was and he went off as an navigator and I, I finished up as an engineer. But I thought well I’ve got to go back to the Air Force after this leave. I was only on leave for the funeral of my brother. So I went to this funeral. It was in town. Which was a bit of a ceremony because all the Air Training Corps was there. They had a pipe band at the time and so we had to follow this pipe band to the cemetery. And it was a bit traumatic. Course then we had to go home. Mum and dad weren’t particularly talkative at the time but they didn’t want me to go back. Not at that time. They didn’t want me to go flying. So I had to toss up one way or another when the time came for me to go back. I decided well I don’t want to become ground crew. I’ve learned all this now. My chances is as good as anybody else’s. So, so I went back to St Athan’s to finish my course which was only supposed to be another week. Well, when I got back there all my friends who I’d made in that course had been posted and left to go somewhere else. So I had to start and find a billet on my own with some other intake that was come a lot later than I had. And nobody was interested who I was or anything. And that’s how I finished at the engineering course in St Athan’s. Well after that you were sent home on leave and then you were sent to join an Heavy Conversion Unit. And that was over at Riccall in Yorkshire. So I went to an Heavy Conversion Unit and we learned all about the actual aircraft. The Halifax. They were Halifax 2s and 3s. Mostly 2s at that time. But at the end of that period. Near, well part way through that period we was, we were told to gather at this hangar. And when we got there, there was a lot of other airmen there of all the different categories. Air gunners, pilots, navigators and said, ‘Right, well you’ve got to find a crew.’ So I thought well I’m surprised at this because they’d pushed you into this hangar and there were these different crews all gathered together and you had to go and find one to join because the, the other people had all six, there were six aircrew there that had been flying twin engined-aircraft and they were converting to four engined-aircraft. Whereas they didn’t need an engineer before that. So now they needed an engineer for a four-engined aircraft because there were more complications and assistance with the fuel handling and things like that. And I’d have thought that a pilot — a pilot and his mates would have decided on which engineer they would like. But it worked the other way round and you had to go and pick your own crew. It amazed me and I’ll never understand that. I don’t really. Because they’d already been together for probably six or seven months and for a stranger to come in and pick them rather than them pick the stranger surprised me. Anyhow, I looked around and I saw these different lads. Some of them were a similar age to myself. The pilot, who was an officer and a bit older, well that gave me a bit of confidence. So I asked them if they would like me as their engineer. It seemed to work alright and I was accepted. So that was a full crew of seven people merged together. And we stayed together then for the rest of the time in the Air Force. Well, the time when we were still in Bomber Command. We carried on there until when we learned to fly together and do night flying, cross-country flying, all sorts of flying at the Heavy Conversion Unit. At the end of that we were posted to a squadron. And we got all the kit together and we piled onto the back of an old Bedford wagon and we were driven away to 51 Squadron. We didn’t know where we were going but it turned out to be 51 Squadron at Snaith in South Yorkshire. And so, and we were dumped in a small field off, off the squadron really with little Nissen huts. No facilities and God knows what. The washing facilities were probably a mile, a mile and a half away. And the canteen and the mess. And so we used to have to walk up from there and go in through the main gates of the camp and go to the, you know the general facilities. Because the rest of the billets on the camp were all, had all been taken but eventually we moved up into the camp and, but we were all at a fair dispersal in different, we were still in Nissen huts. And all the crew, our crew was all together apart from the pilot who was in the officer’s mess. Unfortunately, during the trip from Heavy Conversion Unit to the squadron the pilot got some, some foreign body in his eye. And so when he reported to the squadron MO he was told he couldn’t fly until his eye got better. So, there were, we didn’t know how long this would be. I mean the next time we saw him he had this great big cotton wool patch on his eye. And so we were, I was introduced to the engineering leader at that time and several other of the flight engineers. We used to meet on a morning and go for different lessons and things like that. Unfortunately we couldn’t fly so we did all sorts of silly things like flipping learning to jump off a table to land as from a parachute and silly things like that. But this carried on, carried on but I knew we were going to be, and all the rest of the crews on that squadron were going out on operations at that time. So we began to wonder how much longer it would be before we went on ops. Eventually I were in bed one evening, one night about 9 o’clock and some silly bugger came shaking my head and said, ‘Hey get up. Get up.’ ‘What’s the matter?’ ‘You’re on ops tonight.’ I said, ‘Don’t be so silly,’ [laughs] He says, ‘Oh yes you are. You’re on ops.’ He says, ‘There’s an engineer gone sick,’ he says, ‘You’re flying tonight,’ he says, ‘But you’re a bit late. You’ve missed the briefings and you’ve missed the aircraft inspection period. You’ll have to get cracking up there.’ And so he took me in a small little Morris van up on to the squadron to this aircraft. And they were just ready and the engineering leader give me the inspection sheet. He said he’d done the inspection, ‘Get in and find your place and you’re off,’ and I thought well I’d no idea who I was flying with or what the crew was like or how much experience they had and this was my first operation. Well, it turned around after being to it most of the time when you’re in an aircraft on a job like that it’s no speaking. Only speaking for a particular technical reason or some, or you’ve seen something that’s unusual. So I’d probably been flying two hours before I spoke to anybody. Eventually giving instructions on what fuel conditions were like and one thing and another. Carried on, on that operation and it wasn’t until we were nearly at the site for bombing that I was told where we were going. It turned out to be, of all places, Essen. Well, as everybody knows Essen was well protected. There were black smoke and shells bursting all around us, and it didn’t, it didn’t seem to bother me then because I didn’t understand what half of it was. But nothing happened. We turned around and dropped bombs, turned around, came back home and landed quite normally. And when we were in the truck being taken back into the headquarters for de-briefing the pilot then said to me, ‘Well, that’s it. You’re lucky.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘Well, that’s your last operation.’ I says. ‘What makes you think that?’ He says, ‘Well that’s what we were told.’ I said, ‘Well, you’ve been told a lie because that were me first.’ ‘Oh God,’ he says [laughs] He said, ‘I would have talked to you a bit more if I’d have known that. I just thought you knew as much as we did and carried on.’ It were their, I think it was about their twenty eighth out of the thirty but anyhow that was the first operation, because our skipper was still unable to fly. And this went on for eight weeks. And my next operation was a similar, only about the one beforehand and I went to briefing same as everybody else. But then after that we flew as a crew. I can’t remember which destinations we were and what we were bombing. But all our flights were night flights over Germany. Mostly four and a half to five and a half hour flights at that time. And things happened on these flights. One time we had a bit of a fire in the navigator’s place where the H2S set on fire and I had to go down with the extinguisher and put that out. There was another time when we should have set off and I wouldn’t accept the aircraft because it had a big slit in one tyre. Which, that wasn’t looked on very well by the ground crew and everybody else but we’d been instructed that a tyre with a slit in the side wasn’t acceptable. So I refused to fly. So that put the whole crew couldn’t fly. But unfortunately there was a spare aircraft kicking about so they kicked us on to a spare aircraft and we still had to fly. But in one or two of these ops there were things happened. I mean one time and thank God I were only a little fella. My position used to be stood under the astro hatch which is a plastic hatch on top of the aircraft just behind the pilot. And a piece of shrapnel flew through this hatch straight out through one side and out the other. Well, if I’d been five foot six instead of five feet four that would probably have been the end of me. There was another time when we had a few holes in the aircraft from anti-aircraft fire but we always got back. There was one memorable time when we got back to the, we’d been out, I don’t know how long for. Probably five hours. And we got back and when we got back up into Yorkshire it seemed to be pretty bad weather. And we thought oh we, we’ll have to land somewhere. We came to land at Snaith and it was covered in fog. But by that time it was too late for us to go anywhere else. We were about out of fuel sort of thing. So we decided, well the skipper decided we’d have to land. And we were in contact with ground personnel there. And there was no lights on the runway or anything like that at that time so we had to circle two or three times around 51 Squadron at Snaith until they put these goose neck flares all down the side of the runway. We just managed to get in and give a big cheer. Thought we were the first back but it happened we were the only one back because everybody else had listened to the radio broadcast except our radio operator who loved to listen American Forces Network quite a lot for dance music. And he’d missed an instruction to divert. We’d been diverted somewhere down south. I don’t know where it were. And so we cheered, we thought we were the first ones back. So we got a little bit of a lecture on what we should have listened to and things like that. There was another time when, when they wouldn’t, there weren’t two times, I think twice when we went off to bomb certain places. This was getting towards the end of the war and our job then was sort of backing up the advance of the troops after D-Day. And unfortunately they must have given us some wrong information when we set off but we got nearly to where we should have been and the troops had advanced in to the place where we were told to bomb. So we had to turn around and come back. Well, this is one of the things which I thought were bloody silly because we’d gone all that way, bomb load, flown over quite a bit of defensive Germany and yet we were just turned back and fly back just the same. Why we couldn’t have had another target, another fifty miles further on I don’t understand. But this happened twice. Well on the second time back, well also then there was, you could only land your aircraft with a certain maximum weight. Well, the amount of bombs we had on made as we were over that weight. So, you used to have to drop so many in, in The Wash or in the North Sea. And I used to have to calculate the fuel contents. The weight of the fuel, the weight of the bombs and decide on what the all up weight would be on landing. And to tell the bomb aimer how many bombs he had to get rid of, you see. Drop two five hundred pounders or two, and things like that you see. So this I did and the bomb aimer decided he’d be a bit extravagant. Instead of dropping two five hundred pounders he decided he’d drop four just to make sure [laughs] that we were underweight. Well, then we, we got back and the usual debriefing, and, ‘What did you do then?’ ‘How many bombs did you drop?’ When he told him he’d dropped four and the bloke did the calculations that I had done said, ‘You should only have dropped two.’ He said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘But it made it safe.’ He said, ‘Yes but —’ then we got a lecture about how much bombs cost to manufacture. and the number of hours people spent making bombs. And there was another, well, twice when two different flights went. We landed away from base because we showed, the instruments showed a shortage of fuel. According to my calculations there should have been sufficient fuel for us to get back to base. But to play safe we landed away. We landed at Carnaby. And landed at Hethel, another place and it turned out to be an American place. But landing at Hethel was a mistake. We should have been landing at another RAF place which was about two miles further on. And when we were on the runway on the run in to the landing we got challenged by some American fellas to identify ourselves or we’d be shot at. So I had to shoot a blinking verey cartridge out to the colours of the day. And the wireless op was on the radio trying to tell them who we were. So anyway, we landed alright there and we were looked after. All these Yanks with B49s. And they thought we were marvellous flying in the dark which they didn’t do. They used to do all daylights. More of their flights. But twice as high as we were. And so we, we were looked after there until the next morning we went out to the aircraft. We should have been flying back to Snaith. And I pretended to be a bit dumb and all their aircraft were twelve volt aircraft and ours, ours was twenty four. So, their starting equipment wasn’t suitable for starting our aircraft engines up. So, and I thought well it’s simple enough to get two or three batteries in series to make twenty four volts but I said nothing. So we were there for three days [laughs] We were there for three days. Going to the pictures in Norwich and being fed like lords. Never seen as much food in all my life as what there was on this American base. You could have anything you wanted. Fruit and meat and goodness knows what. To finish they had to send somebody down from 51 Squadron to do some battery alterations and some [unclear] to start our engines. We were three days there [laughs] and it were like a holiday. Anyhow, then I got called into the squadron leader’s office and the engineering leader was there and I got a bit of a lecture on fuel management and one thing and another. And they said that if I didn’t improve at the next flight I would be sent back to St Athan’s for further instruction. That worried me a bit because I thought well everything I’ve done was according to book and log looked alright. It’s just that the instruments didn’t seem right. Anyhow, we were grounded for two days. The next night the officer commanding the squadron took the same aircraft — MHL. I’ll never forget that. Personnel were waiting next night. MHL didn’t come back. Landed away from base short of fuel. Bloody thing were leaking like mad from where one of engines were running, were losing fuel. So I got an apology from [unclear] and that was it. Anyhow, things went on as normal until getting on we thought the war was about finished and Germany would have had it but then we were told we were going to go on a daylight raid. And we went to, we were going to Koln. We went in briefing at early morning. Probably be 6 o’clockish. Something like that. Well we went to Koln. Well, this was our first daylight raid. So we set off as usual. Happy as anything. Nice to do a daylight raid. You can see where you’re going and what’s around you and things like that. But there were a bit of a flak about and an odd fighter was about but when we got on to the bombing run which was the usual straight and level and things and controlled from the bomb aimer the matter, and we were in the second wave. There were four minute intervals between three waves of an eight hundred bombing raid. Eight hundred bombers. Three waves of, and we were second wave. Well, the bomb aimer, we were listening to the master bombers talking at that time and suddenly the master bomber says, ‘Stop bombing reds. Bomb greens from —’ such and such a course. You see. Well, really what we should have done was carried on and bombed reds because we were all half way through the damned bombing run then. But the skipper and the navigator decided and the bomb aimer had a little chat and decided well that must be for us we’d better change course. So I said, ‘Well, this is a bit of a dangerous thing to do. We’re flying half in to the wave. Carry on and bomb as had been instructed beforehand.’ And for us to turn across that everybody else were flying, we were flying at ninety degrees to the rest of them. So they were missing us by inches and one thing and another. And we went out, further out and turned to come in on a different direction. And course we were out on our own at that time. Daylight raid at 10 o’clock in the morning. Flipping flying towards Cologne to drop bombs on it on bloody green targets. And bomb aimer says, kept us on a straight and level course and we did our best and he dropped our bombs. And as soon as our bombs had gone the mid-upper gunner shouts, ‘We’ve just been hit on the right hand side. Starboard engines,’ he says. It’s bunch blazing like mad.’ I looked out and saw the instruments. Skipper switched the engine off. I operated the fire, internal fire extinguishers and I operated the propeller to feather the propellers so they didn’t go around because that made difficulty for flying and also helped to keep the fire going. But nothing was too any avail and you could see this fire getting worse and worse. Of course half the wing’s full of petrol and aviation fuel. And that was it. So the skipper gave us the order to bail out. So, the mid-upper gunner was shouting and telling us what, how this, bad this fire was getting and bits were melting off the wing. The rear gunner turned his turret around and he was hauling back with his head up and telling us about bits flying off. The bomb aimer should have been the first out of the escape hatch which was down in the front. On the floor. What to do with the escape hatch? And him and the navigator were arguing about what to do with it. I said, ‘For God’s sake pull it out and throw it down the front in the bomb aimer’s place.’ So they did that. And the bomb aimer must have had a bit of a dizzy on because he wouldn’t, he was supposed to be the first out and he hesitated so the navigator went out. The wireless op went out. And then the bomb aimer went out. Curly, the rear gunner went out and dropped off the back end. The mid-upper gunner came, scuttled past me and to go down the hatch. I set my parachute and clipped it on and I was stood at the side of the skipper who was still hanging on to the controls trying to keep it straight. I clipped his parachute on to him. And then I said to him, ‘Cheerio Stan. Good luck.’ And I disappeared and that was it. Well, none of us had any parachuting experience or anything like that. It was a cold morning. Snowing at odd times. And we were at about twenty thousand feet. So, and I pulled the rip cord and the little chute came out and then it pulled the other one out. And all of a sudden you slowed down. And there’s me hanging on a few bits of string going around and around and one way or another and swinging backwards and forwards. I thought well the one thing you used to worry about was whether any of the back end of the aircraft might hit you as you dropped out because you just dropped underneath it. And sometimes people had been hit by tail fins and stuff like that. Anyhow, I thought well, that’s it. It’s alright. Here we are in the middle of Germany. You don’t know what sort of a reception you’re going to get. Anything like that. So, and there was an eighty mile an hour wind blowing. If it hadn’t have been we would have probably landed in occupied territory. But as it was this eighty hour wind blowing it was blowing the Germany way so we landed just the other side of the Rhine. Unfortunately I landed in what you might call a copse. A field of small trees. Probably twenty, twenty five foot high. And my parachute, my canopy was over one tree and I was in another. But come to release myself and all of a sudden there’s three blokes with rifles pointing at me. I’d landed in the blasted searchlight squadron or battalion or whatever they called them. And so no chance to run or get anywhere. I wouldn’t have known what to do in any case. So, I was caught straight away as you might say. Had only scratches here and there from twigs breaking and things. But, and that was it. And hence the others who had bailed out, I’d seen the aircraft gunning around and but I never saw another parachute get out so I wasn’t sure whether Stan had got out, the pilot, or not. But evidently he didn’t because he was killed. He went down with the aircraft. And I saw it when the wing dropped off and then it suddenly went down in a spiral. And I’m still floating down. It took nearly twenty minutes to come down. So, but as I say landed in anti- aircraft field where there was a searchlight field and was picked up immediately. I was taken into a police station in a little village. And another RAF bloke was brought in at the same time and people were shouting at us and one thing and another. Didn’t know what were going to happen but the day, the day dragged on and then we were taken out of there and set off to march for somewhere, we walked behind these two policemen. And we crossed the River Rhine at Bonn. We walked across the Rhine at the bridge at Bonn. And then we were taken by a truck to [pause] I think it would be Hamburg. No. No. Frankfurt. Frankfurt. We were put in solitary confinement at Frankfurt and we were kept in solitary confinement for about ten days. And in that confinement you’re in a little cell. Be six foot by eight foot with a stone flag bed. No blankets. No facilities. No nothing. Just a little catch at the side of the door. If you wanted to go to the loo you’d to drop this and the flap dropped outside and some German guard came and rousted you out. But he wouldn’t allow anybody to go out and down that corridor if there was anybody else coming in that corridor because you weren’t allowed to speak to anybody. Used to go to the loo. Get your hands and face washed and that was it. And they used to keep altering the temperature in this cell so in the night time one minute you were cold and the next minute you was too hot and things. But this went on for eight to ten days. Then one day we were, we were taken into a fancy office with a big German. I don’t know what rank he was but his fancy uniform on, sat at a great big desk. And he decided to interrogate us and the usual thing. Rank, name and number and that’s all I’d give him. ‘Now, don’t be silly. No more. The war’s finished for you.’ I said, ‘Well, it might have been but that’s it. Rank, name and number.’ And so he says, ‘Well who’s just your squadron leader. Who’s your flight commander?’ Who’s this and who’s that? I says, ‘I’ve no idea really. I haven’t been on the squadron long enough to find out.’ He says, ‘Well, I’ll tell you.’ And he could tell me more about 51 Squadron than I’d ever known in my life. Commanding officer. Who were flipping different flight officers. How many raids they’d done. And all sorts of things. So he says, ‘Well that’s it for you. Your war’s over. You’ll be sent to a prisoner of war camp somewhere.’ Back to the doings, your cell until they come and collected us. Took us down to the station and they pushed us, there was about forty of us, into a cattle truck. You couldn’t, there weren’t room to sit down or lay down or anything. There was about forty of us. All in a cattle truck. We set off from there. We didn’t know where we were going. On the journey in this cattle truck lots of people had been, they must have been POWs on the run for days. Some of them were poorly. Some of them had diarrhoea and one thing and another. And they used to stop just at the beginning of the evening time at some, out in the country and let us off but all these guards around with big dogs. So you hadn’t the chance to run away. We were, the next day we were going along and we stopped outside a little station and there was a bridge just in front of us. And all of a sudden you could hear these aircraft coming. And, what’s going on? And these bloody aircraft started dropping bombs on us. Well, none of them hit us at the time and so, but we couldn’t get out of these trucks. They were all locked up but we, we [pause] it quietened down a bit so the Germans opened the trucks and said, ‘Out.’ And they sent us round and they’d scattered themselves about around the field next to where we were. And I can remember jumping down over a wall and across a stream and getting my head down. And there were these American twin-engined aircraft that were bombing us. Well, the next three that came in we saw them come in and the blow the engine off the track and they blew the next coach which was full of Germans. The officers, the guards and one thing and another. And then several bullet holes through all the rest of the cattle trucks as we’d class them as. But then they gathered us back up and took us back up to the station. But from then on it were walking. We couldn’t do because the train couldn’t go. We walked for another day then. Then we were picked up again and eventually taken to Nuremberg which we were put in a POW camp. And a massive Nuremberg POW, the camp there. I don’t know how many different compounds there were. And you were just dumped in a doings. Finding, well in each compound there would probably be two to three hundred men. In our compound they were mostly RAF men but there were some army people. And the ones who had been there a bit had formed an organisation. There was always somebody in command in different rank and various things. But all you could do there was walk the perimeter as you might say. And go down and get a wash. The toilet was a big log across a big pit. That was all we had for a toilet there and we were frightened to death of falling into it. Rations were very scarce because the Germans by that time were short of food themselves. They were very short of food. We got to eventually the rations was a sixteenth of a loaf which was one of these black loaves. And one potato. That were your day’s ration. Well, at that time when I first went over there I think I weighed, well my standard weight was nine stone six. But when I came out from there I was just under seven stone. So that teaches you to, it isn’t the kind of food you eat it’s the amount of food that makes, makes you fat [laughs] So anyhow that went on for quite a while. It must have been March, April. Must have been end of April when Americans were in Nuremberg which was south of Germany and Patton’s army were coming through then. Two Gun Patton. Well, we could hear a lot of shelling and bombing and things around us but nothing happened in the camp until one day we was told we were being released. ‘What do you mean we’re being being released?’ ‘Well, the Germans have gone. Patton’s been here and he says we’ll get you some food there and there’s no point — but don’t leave this camp because we want to organise your repatriation,’ you see. ‘So, don’t leave the camp.’ Well, that went on for two days, three days. The food that they sent were typical modern American bread which had no nourishment in it whatsoever. Fluffy stuff. And very little else. So, and I mated up with two Americans and do you know I’m disgusted that I can’t remember their names. Lofty and Shorty. And I met up with them and we decided we’d go for a walk out of the camp. We went out of the camp gates and down and we were following this stream through the farm and I heard a lot of noise going on. Squealing and shouting. Got a bit further on and there were these chaps. There were obviously been a bit of a pig farm and there were these chaps chasing these little pigs and big pigs with big sticks and the iron bars and they were trying to catch and kill these pigs. And I found out they were ex-Russian prisoners and they were starving. And oh they killed these pigs and they just hung them up on the trees. And I met one bloke coming back with a big lump of fatty pig in his hand. Nibbling away at it. It hadn’t been cooked or anything. I thought oh God. Anyhow, we went on a bit further and I got two hens. And we grilled these two hens and then went back to camp again because there were nowhere else to go. You were always frightened and being told be careful. If you’re, if there’s any SS about or anything like that there are certain German troops who wouldn’t hesitate to shoot you if they see you see wondering about on your own. So we went back to camp. Well, eventually they came and they took us from there and took us too a little airstrip called Ingoldstadt. And we just spread out in this place and we were supposed to take our turns as to when we would be lifted off. And we were lifted off by Dakotas. American’s flying Dakotas. And they used to get, I think about twenty four of us into a Dakota. And they flew us from there to Reims. Reims Airfield in, in France. So, we were dropped off there. Well, then we were, we were fed reasonably well. Well, too well for most of them because they couldn’t eat because they hadn’t eaten for — some of them had been four and five years as POWs then. But we, I mean us, we’d only been there two or three months. And after, after that the Lancasters came to Reims. Just Bomber Command Lancasters just as they were. No, no seats in. No nothing. Just as they were as bombers. And we used to get about twenty four or twenty six of us all laid down on the deck. And they flew us over to England and we landed at Tangmere. In one of the RAF fighter bases in the south of England. And well, the thing there, it was, I don’t know who’d arranged it but you got out of this aircraft and, ‘Follow me.’ We goes up this there’s these blokes with blooming back packs and pumps on spraying you. Covering you with delousing powder. This is a fine reception. So you were covered in delousing powder. Then you went up, taken in another hut. Half your clothes were taken off you. And you went to a shower. Then they give you a coat to put on and we went in to this big, well I presume a mess room at Tangmere. And the food that were laid on there. It was amazing. Well, and all the attendants there were some of the best looking WAAFs you’d ever seen. So we went. People had as much to eat as they wanted and you were shuffled off to go into camp to go to bed. The next morning you were taken to a kitting out place and given a uniform to fit you out as best you could. And then you were given a telegram form to fill in to send home to your parents. And that were the first thing they knew about me being alive. And then you were given a railway ticket to get off home on indefinite leave. That was it, so your job as Bomber Command were finished. You didn’t know what was going to happen after that. Well, after about six weeks leave you got called back again. I got called to Cosford near Wolverhampton. I went to Cosford and that, that was a shock for such as us. I mean I were then a WO but it was one of those what I shouldn’t call it but a bullshit place. Stones were painted white. And all guards were there with white webbing on and all that sort of thing. It was a big RAF training camp. And also it was a big sports camp there at Cosford with a swimming pool and a track and all that sort of thing. They used to teach the RAF sportsmen all what they had to do. It were just a gathering place for us. And I think we were there for two weeks. And then we were sent off. There would be, probably fifty of us at that time, to Hereford. Went to Hereford which was now the what do they call these special forces? It’s their, it was their, it’s their camp now. The army special forces. But that was another one. It had been a flight, a flight mechanics training place and an officer’s training place. Well, that was another one that was a bit what I class as bullshitty style. And we were arriving in old usual battledress on and a bit scruffy really because we’d got out of discipline altogether. Well not out of discipline but out of being in your first grade uniform. You were just as you used to fly with your battledress top and your trousers and that was it. And we got there and they were just emptying the place as an officer’s training place. And there were a few, a contingent of Dutch airmen there. Young lads training to be flight mechanics. And when we arrived and there must have been two hundred of us eventually, we were in different billets. And we found our own billets and, and I came across one of the blokes who, one of my Geordies I’d first joined up with there. So we were together again. Macpherson. And we carried on there. What they did with us, they used to gather us together and chop us into groups of about twenty and send you out learning how to throw hand grenades, how to strip a rifle, how to put a machine gun back together. Why the hell do we need this lot for now this war’s finished? War’s finished. And that’s what we were doing all day long. But we used to go down to the mess and there were no food. So we went down parade one morning. About two hundred of us all lined up and all, all ex-Bomber Command, all ex-people who had been on tours and from sergeants to warrant officers. And word went around that when they come to dismiss us stand still. So we all stood there when it came to be dismissed — and what’s? We’ll get so and so to come and read the riot act. The squadron commander. The site commander. Whatever he was. I think he was still one of these officer training people, ‘Well, we’ve no food, you’ve no bread. There’s no meat. There’s no cereals. No nothing. Just these poor Dutch lads doing a few slices of toast and an egg now and then and trying to keep you going on that.’ Well, it wasn’t suitable to us lot after that. So we were stood firm and the commander sent another, a waggon over to Credenhill to, which was a RAF wireless operator’s training place, to fetch a load of food. And they had to fetch this in a blinking waggon and they organised a bit better kitchen staff. And it took them a few weeks to do that. Well, we used to be getting up on a morning, ‘You’re going on a route march today.’ Oh no. No. And half of us would drop out. We’d finish up in picture house in, in Hereford. And one day lights went on in this picture house and there were three big MPs stood up on the stage. ‘We’re looking for — ’ so and so and so and so, ‘That’s missing from camp.’ They had a look around at the cinema half full of flipping ex-Bomber Command lads. So they backed off and went. And that were it. Well, then from there I got posted to 51 Maintenance Unit at Fradley, which is near Lichfield. And it were a bit different to me then because the bloke I got in there, I got sent to Motor Transport Section and I were doing repairs to tractors and fire engines and things. And this, he were a little full time warrant officer. He’d been in for twenty or thirty years. Permanent staff. Warrant officer there and lived in the village next door. They he like us aircrew because we were the same rank as him. Like we were warrant officers and we’d only been for a year. And he took me down to this garage. It was a separate place. And there was this Fordson fire engine there. He says, ‘Do you think you could change this engine?’ I said, ‘What do you mean change the engine? He said, ‘Well take that one out and put a new one in.’ So, I said, ‘Well I can have a try. Who’s going to be showing me and helping me?’ ‘You’re a flight engineer. Have a go.’ So I thought, right and he went off. I looked at this damned thing. Looked in the engine. The bits to take off it, carburettors and things like that to take it out and found a set of blocks. Took engine out. Put the other one back. Put all the bits on. Carburettor, magnetos and various other things, and that were finished. So I finished it off two days later on. He says, ‘Right. You’d better go home then. See you in the morning.’ So I saw him the next morning. He says, ‘Does it work?’ I said, ‘I don’t know if it works. I don’t think there’s any petrol in it.’ He said, ‘Well, there’s some in that tank there. Fill it up. Fill this petrol, this fire engine up and press the starter button.’ And off we went. It were, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘That’s not so bad,’ he says, ‘Right,’ he says, ‘You’d better take it off for a test drive.’ I said, ‘I haven’t got a driving licence.’ He says, ‘That doesn’t matter. You’re on an Air Force camp.’ He says, ‘Take it around the perimeter and just see if it’s alright.’ So there’s me with a bloody, I don’t know what it would be, a four or five tonne flipping fire engine [laughs] changing gears and one thing and another. He got it back and that was it. So I was a bit better friends with him after that. And I used to be on tractors and oh, Coles crane. I learned quite a lot there. But then the government were running out so they shifted me then into an office. And an office was where we used to do this long term storage. There used to be these aircraft flying in. Some of them had just flown in from America. Seven hours flying and things like that and they were putting in, inhibiting them with various materials. All engines were coated and things. And then they were taken away and put on storage. But then at the other end of the camp where they were bringing these aircraft back out of storage and dismantling them for scrap. And they used to bring them down and they used to get axe, fireman’s axe out of the aircraft and just chop into the petrol tanks and let it run out. Put a big, a canopy or something like that onto it and let it run and divert it into a big tank. And then there were a bowser at the side sucking it all out and doing things like that. Well, it used to be all over the blooming place, the fuel. And there were these people riding around in bikes smoking and God knows what. I used to think this is not the place for me. And I used to have to record all these. How many hours it had flown. What inhibitor they’d had put on and all that sort of thing. Well, office work weren’t my cup of tea. But I kept on doing that till one, one day somebody must have ridden down with a bike and thrown a tab end down and aircraft and bowser and the whole lot went up. Three blokes got killed. I thought well this, all excitement. But by this time then I’d met my wife Sheila in the next village. Because we used to go into Lichfield to the dances and we used to, as usual picking the girls up where you could. And I met Sheila and we’ve kept together ever since. That’s what? Sixty eight years now. So, but I carried on. I moved from that job then into — what did I do next? Oh into the tools stores and cycle. Cycle stores and tool stores. So I were in my element with all the different tradespeople. They used to come in and want, and there was a list of tools that each, a plumber had to have or a rigger or a flipping, all that. And I used to be making the tool boxes up. Then when I got demobbed I used to have to count them all and make sure everything were there and send them back to headquarters if they weren’t there. And they got charged for them and things like that. And I was there until I got demobbed. And I got demobbed. Came back home. Went back to my job in printing engineering. They started making printing machines again. And carried on like that with oh — and then I had to go back down to the village to get married. We got married down there. My wife and her sister. We had a double wedding. Had a double wedding. The only one there had ever been in the village. And the village was Alrewas. Do you know where the Arboretum is where all the war memorial things. Well it’s there. That’s where, where my wife comes from. So, and then we came back up here. Finding out, we lived with my mother and father for a year before we could find a house anywhere. And eventually got the house. Started a family. I started making printing machines again. I started going backwards and forwards in England and Ireland repairing them or fitting them and making new ones. And then that developed into going further afield. And I used to be going off on my own to various parts of the world fitting printing machinery up. And then I had three, three sons. And after that I was at home one evening about 11 o’clock there was a bang on the door and some works manager looking for me. He’d been told that I might make a decent works engineer. So I had to go and I said, ‘Well I’m not looking for a job. I’ve just, I’ve got one,’ But I says it would, if I went this was at a factory in town. Employed about two hundred and fifty people. And he says, ‘You wouldn’t have to be going abroad anymore and you could, you know,’ So I went there. A bit of a strange, a lot of strange machinery and things like that but put up with it and did quite well there. I got to the stage where if there were new machinery to be bought the managing director and the works manager used to go. It was mostly to Germany. And they used to take me with them over to Germany to inspect these machines and see whether they were properly suitable for British safety regulations and one thing and another. And different, the different attitude to when I first went to Germany as a POW and this attitude when I was going as a big customer buying a million pound machine. Out to dinner. Out to this. And out. Oh God. Lovely. And that’s how it’s gone until I retired. I didn’t want to retire at sixty five because the job was interesting. I could cope with it fairly well. But it was the policy of the company or the insurance company that ran the pension scheme I don’t know. So I finished at sixty five and that’s it. I think that’ll do for now. Don’t you?
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command I’d like to thank Flight Engineer A Nicholson for his recording at his home on the 22nd of September 2015. Once again, I thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Arthur Nicholson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mick Jeffery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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ANicholsonA150922
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:10:40 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur was released from his reserved occupation as an apprentice engineer to join the Royal Air Force. After St John’s Wood, he underwent some basic training at RAF Bridlington and RAF Usworth before going on an engineering course at RAF St Athan for six months. He also attended a course in Liverpool at Handley Page, the manufacturer of Halifaxes. His brother, a navigator, was killed whilst he was at RAF St Athan. Arthur joined the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall and describes crewing up. He was posted to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. His pilot had an injury, so his first two operations were with a different crew. His remaining operations were mainly night flights over Germany.
Arthur describes some of the incidents he encountered. The most notable was a daylight operation to Cologne towards the end of the war. The starboard engines caught on fire and they had to bail out. He was taken as a prisoner of war and, after interrogation in Frankfurt, was taken to a camp in Nuremberg. En route their train was bombed by American aircraft. They had very little food but were liberated by the Americans. Arthur was flown in a C-47 to Reims and on to RAF Tangmere in a Lancaster. He went to RAF Cosford, then RAF Hereford and was posted to the 51 Maintenance Unit at RAF Fradley. He eventually was sent to the Motor Transport Section before being demobilised.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Nuremberg
Great Britain
England--Sunderland (Tyne and Wear)
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
51 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
C-47
crewing up
Dulag Luft
flight engineer
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Heavy Conversion Unit
military service conditions
Operation Exodus (1945)
prisoner of war
RAF Bridlington
RAF Riccall
RAF Snaith
RAF St Athan
RAF Usworth
sanitation
shot down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1105/11564/PRoseHP1801.1.jpg
ad6f5f49ca330c1caf60a4e83c743b08
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1105/11564/ARoseHP180222.2.mp3
2c049fdb339502cf5b435f4fb4b0f6cc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Rose, Hayden Philip
H P Rose
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Philip Rose (b. 1924, 1654274, 185661 Royal Air Force). He flew operations a flight engineer with 426 Squadron before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Rose, HP
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: Right. This is Gary Rushbrooke for the IBCC on the 22nd of February 2018 and I am with Flight Lieutenant Philip Rose at his house in York. Philip, just when was you born sir? What was, what was your birthdate?
HPR: My birthday is the 27th of July 1924.
GR: 1924. And did you, we’re in York, did you, was you born in York? Did you grow up around —
HPR: No. I was born in, in South Wales.
GR: Oh right.
HPR: And joined the RAF in 1943.
GR: 1943. Yeah.
HPR: PNB. Which is pilot, navigator, bomb aimer system. I then remustered to flight engineer. Then went to St Athans to be trained.
GR: Yes.
HPR: Completed my, my training there. Then I was waiting for a crew so they sent me to [pause] where was it? I’m trying to think of the name of the place. Anyway, I was sent there for two weeks. Oh, Isle of Sheppey.
GR: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HPR: Unfortunately, a terrible place to go because that was where the people who were, decided they had a lack of moral fibre and they were stripped of their, of their brevets and what have you.
GR: That’s where they went. Yeah. If they’d been lack of moral fibre. Coming away from their base.
HPR: That’s right. They were out to the Isle of Sheppey. Then they were, you know they would be marched out.
GR: So they had people training there as well?
HPR: They, I don’t know whether they, no. I wasn’t.
GR: No.
HPR: I was only waiting for, for a crew.
GR: But even so you’re waiting there.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: And you’re seeing these people.
HPR: Absolutely.
GR: And we won’t come to that.
HPR: Yeah. So, you know they were stripped. They just said, ‘You’re not, you’ve been found guilty of lack of moral fibre and the sentence is that you will be stripped down to AC2s again.’ So they just used to pin their stripes on them, tear them off, tear their beret off and say —
GR: Yeah.
HPR: That’s it. You’re back to, back to the cookhouse sort of thing. So that was that. I was there. Then a crew arrived from Canada. My crew. We met up then at Riccall. The Heavy Conversion Unit.
GR: Heavy Conversion Unit.
HPR: At Riccall.
GR: At Riccall. Yeah.
HPR: Did our six weeks training there on Halifaxes.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And then joined the squadron. 426 Squadron at Linton On Ouse.
GR: At Linton. Yeah.
HPR: So we did twenty one trips. We were shot down on the twenty first.
GR: Oh right.
HPR: Trip to, as I say to Wanne Einkel.
GR: So, before we come to that we’ll backtrack a little bit. Mum and dad. Did you have any brothers and sisters?
HPR: I’ve got, I’ve got brothers. I’ve got two brothers and two sisters. I did have.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: They’re all dead now. My one brother —
GR: Was you, where was you in the pecking order? Older brother. Younger brother.
HPR: I was the, I was the youngest.
GR: You were the youngest. Yeah.
HPR: I was the youngest. The rest of them were —
GR: Yeah.
HPR: All older than me.
GR: So, schooling was in South Wales.
HPR: Yes. School was in South Wales. I went to the Rhondda County Grammar School. Matriculated from there.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And that was and then went in. Had a bit of [pause] went to work with a, in a factory for a while.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And then three of us who were, we were all working in the factory decided to go and join the RAF. So we went to Penarth which was in South Wales.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Which was the attestation centre, and joined up. And that’s how I started off. And then we got posted to first of all to St John’s Wood.
GR: Yes.
HPR: In London.
GR: So you joined up in 19 —
HPR: 1943.
GR: 1943. Oh, so 19 — yeah.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: What work was you doing in the factory? Bearing in mind the war would have been on.
HPR: Technical. Technical work.
GR: Just yeah.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Yeah. Administration work.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: So it was a company called Simmonds were making special things for the Air Force rather. For the RAF.
GR: Oh right.
HPR: So —
GR: And were, daft question because obviously you were if there were three of you in that factory.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: And even though the factory was doing things for the —
HPR: That’s right.
GR: War work. The RAF.
HPR: You were allowed to volunteer then.
GR: That’s right.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: We all volunteered.
HPR: Yes.
GR: And each of them, one of them became a pilot, one of them became a navigator and I became an engineer.
HPR: Right.
GR: And did the other two survive?
HPR: As far as I know. Yeah, they survived.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: I don’t know where they, what’s happened to them now of course.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HPR: They’re just gone.
GR: But at the time. Yeah.
HPR: Their own sweet way, sort of thing.
GR: So at the time, yeah you were in the factory. You decided right —
HPR: Yeah.
GR: We’ve all got to join up and join the RAF.
HPR: That’s it. So we all went to Penarth and joined up at the same time. The same day.
GR: Same day. You all went together.
HPR: That’s it.
GR: Oh. wonderful.
HPR: Got through, got the [artist?] did all the usual work that they do, you know. Maths, English and all the rest of it.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And they said, ‘Oh, you’re ok.’ They said to me, they give you a recording when you’re doing that and they play the earphones on and said, ‘Why do you want to be a pilot? Why don’t you be a wireless operator?’ And I said the one thing I didn’t want to be was a wireless operator. They said, ‘Why not?’ ‘Well, you’ve just had a recording with, you had this dit dit dit da da da. And just say are they the same or are they different?’ He said, ‘You had an eighty seven percent on it so you must be good.’ I said, ‘I just did it. I’ve forgotten about it,’ you know. ‘It all went queer and I just said yes. Oh, that’s, yes. No. Yes. Yes. No. And it just happened to be but — ’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want to be that.’ So they said, ‘Right. PNB.’ And then off to London.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: To St John’s Wood.
GR: Was you, was there any gap in between? So once you joined up they didn’t still —
HPR: Oh yes. There was about, they give us a small badge to say that you are RAF Reserve.
GR: Yes.
HPR: About two months.
GR: Yeah. Because there’s some veterans I spoke to said, ‘Oh, yeah they sent us home and we were waiting six months.’
HPR: Yeah.
GR: And we were waiting nine months.
HPR: I waited about two months.
GR: That’s not bad.
HPR: And they gave me a little badge to say that, you know you’re in the RAF.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Virtually. But we’re waiting.
GR: Yes.
HPR: So if anybody said, ‘Why the hell aren’t you —
GR: Yeah.
HPR: In the army.’ Or, ‘Why aren’t you —
GR: Because you’re walking around in —
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Nobody bringing you a white feather or anything like that.
HPR: That’s it.
GR: So, yeah. So, you were, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. What did you think of St John’s Wood?
HPR: A tremendous place to be but I can remember the one thing about it was the fact that you had all your inoculations, vaccinations virtually at the same time, you know. Outside going up the fire, fire steps of these flats we were in and then being injected in both arms.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And that was it sort of thing. Then we were doing all sorts of things. You know, maths, English and all the rest of it and they said they decided I would be an engineer rather than a pilot. So that was it.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Then I was posted down to, as I said to St Athan. I did my training there. Then joined the, the crew eventually. Having been to see the poor people being stripped of their, their —
GR: Just I find it a strange place.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: To send somebody.
HPR: To send somebody. Absolutely. But it was not only myself. It was quite a few.
GR: No. Yeah. But, yeah any of you to be there and think what’s going off here?
HPR: That’s right, because I got pretty friendly with one chap who had been strapped. His name was Brotherton I think if my memory serves me and he was, flying. He was a wireless operator and he said that he’d had enough. He’d been, he’d flown for about twenty, twenty sorties.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And they said he was lack of moral fibre. He said, ‘I’m quite prepared to go up and fly on flying boats or anything else,’ but he said, ‘I’m not on there anymore.’ So he said, ‘I’ve had enough.’ They shot him. Anyway, they stripped him.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And he went. I don’t know. He was very good. But I remember he was a very good pianist and he used to entertain people while he was there, you know. On the piano and what have you.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And in the NAAFI.
GR: I presume you knew what were going off.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: What did you think?
HPR: Well, I thought, you know I was really sorry for them because these guys they were obviously, you know not a hundred percent in themselves. You could tell that. They were sort of shadow of themselves almost.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: But you said, well you know, ‘It can’t happen to me.’
GR: No.
HPR: We hoped. And that was it.
GR: Yeah. Because obviously, yeah you’re speaking to somebody who has done twenty missions.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: And this is something you’re going to go and do.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: And then you’re listening to him and —
HPR: Yes. Lack of moral fibre and that’s it.
GR: Yeah. We’d have different words for it these days but —
HPR: Yeah.
GR: I’m interrupting. So, yeah. So after that you, how did you meet the crew because obviously when it was like all British crews —
HPR: Yeah.
GR: They used to put you all together in a room and you’d walk around.
HPR: That’s right. Well, we —
GR: Talk to people and —
HPR: We were put in a place called, a manor which is just north of York here. We had a room there. Aldwark Manor.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Aldwark Manor was where we were billeted. We met up there actually. We, and we spent a few days together talking about things and we all seemed to be gelling out ok. And then we were posted down to Riccall.
GR: Right.
HPR: To Heavy Conversion Unit.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Then we went back to Aldwark Manor because that’s where we were going to be billeted when we were flying from Linton On Ouse.
GR: Right.
HPR: So that —
GR: So was you given to the crew?
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Or did the crew approach?
HPR: Yeah.
GR: So you just, you were given a crew.
HPR: That’s right. Oh yes.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Well, we were, I was introduced to the crew.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And they, they really vetted me.
GR: Right.
HPR: Rather than me vet them.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HPR: And they said, ‘Well,’ you know, ‘You seem a good guy, you know, seen what you’re doing and all the rest of it.’ And we got on remarkably well together as a crew, you know. Excellent.
GR: I think you told me the wireless operator was —
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Also British.
HPR: The wireless operator. That’s right. But he’d already joined them.
GR: Right.
HPR: Prior to me going there. He [pause] his name was Twyneham. So, he was from London and he was, he was working in the City somewhere in London before he came, and he went back to that after the war. I can remember. The rest of them came from, most of them, all of them came from all of them came from Canada. The wireless operator was, he was British. The mid-upper gunner was from Saskatchewan. He came from a wheat farming community there. His family were farmers. Johnny de Luca was working for the government in Toronto. Bob, the navigator he was in business in Toronto. And the, the bomb aimer was from Montreal. He was French Canadian. He was the joker in the pack if there ever was a joker. He was quite a, quite a character. So that’s how the crew was formulated.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And as you say we then started down at Riccall. Having finished there started on 426 Squadron at —
GR: Linton.
HPR: At Linton on Ouse.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: That’s the [pause] saying the, the [pause] That’s where he, is the —
GR: Oh right.
HPR: That’s, that’s the skipper’s [pause] skippers burial. I wasn’t there unfortunately. I was away on holiday.
GR: Right. Yeah. We’re just looking at a photograph. Is this, is this in Holland?
HPR: It’s Holland.
GR: Yeah. He’s buried in Holland, is he?
HPR: Yeah.
GR: So, what was your first operation? So obviously you got to Linton.
HPR: The first, first operation we did was in Metz.
GR: Right.
HPR: We bombed Metz. It was the first operation we did, and we did a series of operations from all over.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: From St Nazaire.
GR: Any thoughts on the first op? As in —
HPR: Well, yes.
GR: Not apprehensive but —
HPR: That was interesting.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Because that first op we were late in returning. We didn’t see any particular flak or anything but we had a lot of reports when we came back that a lot of them had had a fairly hectic time.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: But we were fortunate. We were a couple of minutes late sort of thing getting back and we didn’t really see a lot of it. But we saw the latter end of it but we weren’t worried about it ourselves.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: So that was it.
GR: So, yeah. It went well. Yeah. And that was it. You were in the system.
HPR: We were absolutely in the system. Exactly.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And then —
GR: And this would have been the summer of 1944.
HPR: That’s it. Yeah. And then we carried on then right through.
GR: Can you remember when your first operation was? Would it have been —
HPR: I can’t remember exactly the date.
GR: May. June.
HPR: June it would be.
GR: June.
HPR: It would be June. Definitely. Yes.
GR: So did you do some of the what they called the Normandy bombing runs?
HPR: Yes. Oh, yes.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
HPR: St Nazaire.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: All those sort of places.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: We did all those bombing runs.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: D-Day. You know.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: So then after that as I say we eventually landed up in this, at Wanne Einkel, in —
GR: This was about, this was about your twentieth mission.
HPR: Twenty, this was the twenty first.
GR: Twenty first.
HPR: Twenty first mission.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And that, as I say we did the bombing run. We were hit. The —
GR: Hit by flak.
HPR: The flak, yeah. Oh yes. It was predictive, predictive flak actually because you could tell because we were on a fifteen thousand feet.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And flying straight and ready for the bombing run. I shouted, you know, ‘Bomb doors open,’ and away. Bob said, ‘Bombs gone away.’ You know.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: That was it. We turned off then having as we were turning we got hit. The outer, port outer engine was hit. I feathered the engine. Put the fire out but we were hit by flak again. The skipper was hit in the leg. The bomb aimer was hit. His nose. He broke his nose. And then there was the, we got it, the aircraft back as far as Dordrecht in Holland.
GR: In Holland. Yeah.
HPR: And we were going to bale out as I said. We. The first out was the rear gunner who said, ‘Keep it straight and level so I can get my ‘chute.’ His ‘chute was in, was obviously not on his, in his turret.
GR: No.
HPR: It was outside his turret.
GR: He had to come back to the fuselage to get it, doesn’t he?
HPR: He come back. Yeah. He come back.
GR: Yes.
HPR: Pick up his chute, put his chute on and dived out. Mid-upper, the mid-upper gunner was the second. Bob, the navigator went. Then Twyneham the wireless operator and then Bill, the bomb aimer went. And I was the last out. I helped to get the skipper back to the rear of the plane. Put a hand on the handle of his chute.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Said, ‘Off you go,’ and kicked him out.
GR: Yeah. You pushed the pilot.
HPR: I followed him out.
GR: You pushed the pilot out.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Then you were the last one out.
HPR: I followed him out. The aircraft was losing height all the time and it crashed just outside Dordrecht. We found out eventually that a part of it they found is now in a museum or was in a museum in Dordrecht. Which was the wing of the aircraft was in there. And I was, I landed on the outside, on the outskirts of, of Dordrecht. Eventually met up. I met the bomb aimer, the navigator and the air gunner. Rear Gunner. All together. They marched us into Dordrecht.
GR: Was you picked up straight away?
HPR: We were. Yes, I rather funnily enough the chap that picked me up spoke perfect English. He said, ‘Good afternoon,’ and I was bloody flabbergasted as you can well imagine. But he was telling me he’d been working for a German shipping company in Liverpool before the war.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: He was a corporal in the German army.
GR: Oh right.
HPR: And he’d worked in this, for a German shipping company in Liverpool docks. So they marched me, ‘Raus [unclear] they said. Well, there was, well we knew that the bomb, we were told that the pilot had had his legs blown off and he was dead when they reached the ground. But there were two others who were missing. That was, one was Twyneham and the mid-upper gunner was Ken Dugdale. The last report we had there was somebody had landed on the church at Dordrecht and had been hit by rifle fire. We eventually found out that that was in fact Ken Dugdale.
GR: Right.
HPR: He was put into hospital in Dordrecht at the time. Eventually they picked up Twyneham in a field outside Dordrecht. They’d brought him in and then we were all put in, into the local jail at Dordrecht in Holland. And eventually the, we were shipped from there by a rickety old bus to Frankfurt on Main.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And there we were held in the, the German headquarters there and interrogated by two officers. One who purported to be, had worked, also been educated at Oxford. So he reckoned. By the way we never found out whether he was. Spoke perfect English.
GR: How was you treated in between?
HPR: That’s right.
GR: In between, ended up in the local jail.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: To get into Frankfurt. Were you treated well?
HPR: No. No.
GR: No.
HPR: We got nothing really. All we had was a slice of bread.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Black bread and a cup of soup.
GR: But you weren’t mistreated.
HPR: No. We weren’t mistreated.
GR: No. No.
HPR: No. We were just [pause] except when we were, we were so tired we were told by the guards to get up and —
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Prodded with rifles but nothing —
GR: Nothing. Yeah.
HPR: Particularly untoward. But none the less it was a bit scary.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Then as I say we were taken by —
GR: Because by that time in 1944.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: I know of certain bomber crews.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: American and British that were murdered basically. They were you know if they were captured by some of the civilians.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Especially if they were near the places they’d bombed.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Then the, and the authorities used to turn a blind eye. That’s why I was asking if —
HPR: Yeah. Well, the biggest problem we still had our parachutes with us. They still, we had to carry our parachutes where ever we went.
GR: So you stood out like.
HPR: We’d stand out. That’s right. When we got to Frankfurt then we got a little bit of flak from the local people.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Because we had to march up to get to get to the railway station in Frankfurt and we got a bit of flak from the people there. They were spitting at us and telling us this, that and the other, you know. Terror fliegers. So, eventually we got to the German headquarters at Frankfurt. We were interrogated there as I said. Then we were moved on from there and eventually landed up in a place called Dulag Luft.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Which was just outside Frankfurt. And we were there for quite a while. Then eventually from there we were shipped out to —
GR: Luft 7.
HPR: Poland.
GR: Yes.
HPR: That was at Stalag Luft 7.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: In Bankau near Breslau.
GR: So, that would be around about October time, wouldn’t it?
HPR: That was.
GR: Shot down in September.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: October.
HPR: That’s right,
GR: Yeah. October. November. I was going to say how was prison life but I presume you weren’t in the prison camp long because did they then start, as the Russians were advancing did they take you out on what became known as the Long March.
HPR: Yeah. What happened was we were in there. Stalag Luft. That’s [pause] the first camp we went to. That’s a map of the —
GR: Oh, right. Thank you. Yes. Stalag Luft 7.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Bankau, Silesia.
HPR: The first camp we went to was a temporary camp because that hadn’t been completed. We were in just little huts.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Which were only about seven foot high and about, you know twenty four foot long. Then we went to that camp eventually when it was completed. And it was said that nobody would ever escape. Escape from there sort of thing. But nobody did. We didn’t. We were there until —
GR: Because in your own mind was you aware the war was coming to a close?
HPR: Well, yes. We were. We were getting reply. Reports from UK. We had two guys. One who was shot down the first day of the war.
GR: Right.
HPR: And he was a wireless operator and he was a very clever lad. He managed to get, he’d got a phone. A telephone, telephone wires and eventually managed to get a radio signal and he was, he was giving us reports.
GR: Reports. Yeah.
HPR: Virtually every day of what was happening during the war. He was an excellent guy. The padre was there also who was a nice, a very nice chap. I’ve still got the bible that he gave me there, and I’ve carried that everywhere. I’ll just show it to you.
GR: Show me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HPR: I’ll get it for you.
GR: Yeah. And I’ll just pause the —
[recording paused]
GR: So we’re just looking at a Holy Bible that was presented to Philip by the —
HPR: He was the padre.
GR: The padre. Victor —
HPR: He was acting padre. He was —
GR: Victor [Coops.]
HPR: Yeah. He became, he became a full time vicar afterwards.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: After the war.
GR: Yeah. So the Holy Bible with a stamp inside it that says Stalug Luft 7. Incredible. So, so when was you taken out the camp and put on the Long March?
HPR: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: That was on the —
[pause]
GR: It would be January time.
HPR: 17th of January.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: 17th of January and I was on that Long March twenty one days or thereabouts.
GR: For about, so for about three weeks. Where did you end up then, Philip?
HPR: We ended up eventually at Luckenwalde.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Which was [pause] the camp number was camp three and we were there then. There were fifty four thousand in that camp which was really required to keep about ten or twelve thousand.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: So we had no, no beds. No nothing. Just palliases. Wooden —
GR: Straw beds yeah.
HPR: Well, yeah.
GR: I presume, I presume you was in, because you were shot down in September.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: You was in quite reasonable physical condition.
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Unlike some of the chaps who had been there three or four years. Were they —
HPR: That’s right.
GR: Were they —
HPR: Yeah.
GR: Thinner? And —
HPR: Well we, I, we’d all lost weight obviously on the march.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Because we had very little food.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: It was only a question of a cup of soup a day. A slice of bread a day. Maybe one spoonful of sugar or whatever.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: One cup of coffee which was horrible. Ersaz coffee made of acorns.
GR: Acorns.
HPR: That’s right. And I lost, my weight came to around six stone twelve when I came home.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: So, I was about eleven stone when I, when I, when I got shot down.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And we, not only myself but everybody else.
GR: Yeah. So in a period of seven or eight months.
HPR: Were in the same situation.
GR: Yeah. It’s a very big weight loss.
HPR: Very little food.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: We were at this camp for, as I say there were fifty four thousand of them there. Russians, Poles, Germans, err Russians, Poles, Czechoslovakians all sorts of nationalities.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: The Russian’s camp itself was separate from, from the main camp. Then eventually as I said the Russians overran us in, when was it? May.
GR: Yes. End of April.
HPR: End of April.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: That’s right.
GR: It was the Russians who took over the camp wasn’t it?
HPR: The Russians —
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Took over the camp completely. Then we heard that the Americans were on the other side of the Elbe.
GR: Yes.
HPR: They were advancing. We got word to them to say where we were. They eventually brought trucks up. Fifty trucks to take all the, all the American and the British prisoners out of the —
GR: Out.
HPR: Out of the camp. The Russians refused and as we were moving on they fired us over the tops and with rifles, they said, ‘Nobody leaves this camp until we get an exchange of prisoners.’ Fifty four thousand prisoners in exchange for all these other prisoners that you’ve got. The Russians were, the Russians in the Russian side of the camp were released by the Russians and told, ‘There’s a rifle. Off you go. Kill as many Germans as you can.’ And outside the camp was one gun post which had six German army guys there. They went out and they said, ‘Bring back proof that you’ve killed them.’ They brought back six heads.
GR: God.
HPR: And said, ‘There we are. We’ve killed them.’
GR: Yeah.
HPR: For ourselves we tried to get on but as I said they told us we can’t get. So we were in that camp now until well I didn’t get home until June.
GR: So, how did you eventually get out the camp? Was it —
HPR: We eventually —
GR: The Russians just let you go or —
HPR: Eventually they transferred so many prisoners in exchange.
GR: Right.
HPR: They transferred them over on the Elbe.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: The Germans and the Russians and they allowed us to leave. We then, they then took us from there back into Frankfurt, then on to, I flew then from, they took us down to Holland and we flew back home to Tangmere.
GR: Tangmere.
HPR: In Sussex.
GR: What aircraft did you fly back on?
HPR: Dakotas.
GR: Dakotas.
HPR: That’s right.
GR: I know they were using Lancasters, Dakotas and American B17s, so —
HPR: That’s right. Yeah. Dakotas.
GR: You got a Dakota.
HPR: Flew on Dakotas back to Tangmere and the first time we, the first meal I had, I will always remember was fish and chips in Tangmere. That was the blessing.
GR: Yes.
HPR: While we were in, in Holland with the Americans we were fed with very good food obviously. With bacon and eggs and —
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And pineapples and goodness knows what. Excellent I must say. Then we eventually came home. I had a slight bit of flak in my left leg which had played up a bit. It was still weeping and what have you. They decided that first of all they were going to put me into hospital. There was, I said I didn’t, I wanted to go home first if I could because I had no, I had no knowledge of whether my family were alive or whether they were dead or what happened because only one, they only had one letter from me after I became a prisoner of war to say that I was a prisoner of war. To confirm that. But no other mail had got through. So eventually they let me home with details of what had happened to be given to my doctor and he treated me. Then after three weeks I went back to Cosford Hospital. They looked at it and said it was ok, it was fine. I could go back on leave. I had another three weeks leave. They were trying to treat us because we were undernourished. The only way they could give us extra rations was by giving us rations that were normally used for WAAF’s pregnancies. That was double rations.
GR: Double rations.
HPR: And so I was having two lots of bacon, two lot of meat, two lots of beef —
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Two lots of butter etcetera etcetera to build up. So eventually I then got posted back to Cosford. I did a course there. I stayed in the RAF.
GR: Yeah. Were you back, when you came back from prisoner of war camp —
HPR: Ah huh.
GR: Did you learn then that all the others had come back with you? So the rest of the crew apart your pilot did they come back at the same time?
HPR: Oh yeah. They all came back.
GR: Did they, were they in the same camp by the way?
HPR: They came back virtually at the same time.
GR: Oh right.
HPR: But were disbanded into the RCAF.
GR: Oh course. They would have been sent back to Canada, wouldn’t they?
HPR: That’s right.
GR: Yes.
HPR: They went back to Canada.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And then, as I said I came back home here. As I say they all went back to their jobs except Bill Sloane went back to Montreal, but then he went on to America. He decided to go down to America. We lost all trace of him. The rest of them we, we kept in touch with for a while. Bob Walters died of, he had cancer. He died about ten years ago. The next one who died was [pause] Ken. Ken Dugdale. Mid-upper gunner. He died of cancer in Saskatchewan. Twyneham stayed. He was alive until four years ago. He died in London. Who else was there? Bob as I said. Bill Sloane went on to America so we —
GR: Yeah. Lost track of him.
HPR: Lost all trace of him. There was myself still here. And Johnny de Luca.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Obviously of Italian parentage.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: He died two years ago.
GR: Two years ago.
HPR: He had a blood disorder.
GR: Oh dear.
HPR: Which they couldn’t cure.
GR: Did you stay in the RAF?
HPR: I stayed in the RAF until 1948.
GR: Oh, ’48. Right.
HPR: Went back to Cosford. I went to training to do a equipment officer’s job. I did it at Cosford for a while. Then they came along and said, ‘Right. We’re sending you on a bomb disposal course.’
GR: [laughs] What a thing to do.
HPR: So they sent me on a bomb disposal course and I was then employed getting rid of phosgene and mustard gases by firing them with sten guns. Blowing them up. Burning them.
GR: What a way to do it.
HPR: Yeah. So then they said, ‘Right. We’re getting you posted now to a place called Cottam, which is just outside Driffield.’
GR: Yes.
HPR: And that was a bomb disposal unit. They had bombs. Two hundred, four hundred pound bombs all over the place there. So we had to, well we was selling these to Iraq and Iran. We were repainting them and sending them off after the war to Iraq and Iran. So I was in charge of this unit there and eventually I applied for a permanent commission. They offered me a short service commission of four years. And I said no. This is ’48 and I said, ‘No. I’d rather it’s either a full commission or I’m out.’ So then, it was then I came out.
GR: Right.
HPR: 1948. Although, if I’d stayed in the guys who also applied for, for a short service eventually got a full —
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Commission because they were short of officers in the 1950s. So, I came out. Then got a job in one of the utilities with is the Electricity Boards.
GR: Back in Wales.
HPR: Back. No. First of all in Yorkshire.
GR: Right.
HPR: In Driffield.
GR: So you decided to stay in —
HPR: In, well in Hull really.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And then I transferred from there back to Wales.
GR: Right.
HPR: And I got a job with the Electricity Board in Wales. From there, I stayed with them for about three years and a guy came along and offered me a job with a company, an American company called Kelvinator making refrigerators. So I joined them as a sales rep. Left then after about three years. Got a job with Phillips Electrical who were forming a new group for white goods. So I became an area manager for them and eventually left them after seventeen years. They headhunted from another company called MK which made electrical switches and sockets. Became a sales manager from then. Then they asked me to go to South Africa. So I went to South Africa for two and a half years to, as a marketing manager and eventually marketing director for them in South Africa.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Sold the company in South Africa which they wanted me to do. Came home and then retired.
GR: Right.
HPR: Then somebody came along and said, ‘I’ve got a job for you.’ I said I didn’t really want a job. ‘Oh, we’ve got a job.’ So I went to work then for the government on marking, checking marking of GCSE exams.
GR: Oh right. Yeah.
HPR: In Harrogate.
GR: Yeah. So you was living up in this area by then.
HPR: Yeah. Finished up. I finished up here.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: Became the, as I said I have a house in, before I came here I had a house in Askham Richard.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: And do you know, so before that we had a house down in, I worked for, when I worked for Phillips I worked in London with them.
GR: Yeah.
HPR: At, so I had a house in Horsham for three years.
GR: So you moved around a bit.
HPR: So I’ve been around a bit.
GR: A wonderful life. Yeah. Very very good. So how are we doing? Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Hayden Philip Rose
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARoseHP180222, PRoseHP1801
Format
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00:41:20 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Netherlands
Netherlands--Dordrecht
Germany
Poland
South Africa
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Poland--Tychowo
Description
An account of the resource
Hayden Philip Rose was born on the 27th of July 1924. After leaving school he worked in the Simmonds factory office before joining the RAF in 1943, training as an engineer. His brothers also joined, becoming a pilot and a navigator. Upon meeting his crew at RAF Aldwark Manor they were posted to RAF Riccall where they trained on Halifaxes, before joining 426 Squadron at RAF Linton-on-Ouse.
On their 20th operation, they were hit by anti-aircraft fire upon which they bailed out near Dordrecht, and the pilot was killed in action. The crew were then held at German headquarters in Frankfurt for interrogation and eventually sent to Stalag Luft 7. He reports that when the Russians reached the camp they gave them rifles to kill as many Germans as they could. They took back six heads to prove that they had killed them.
He flew back in June 1945. After three weeks leave, he completed further training before being posted to RAF Cottam, where he stayed until 1948. Rose recounts his life after demobilisation, including working in South Africa and keeping in touch with his crew.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1945-06
1948
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
426 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
Dulag Luft
faith
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Riccall
RAF Tangmere
shot down
Stalag Luft 7
the long march
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1131/11657/ASmithJ180111.1.mp3
55ba8a2ee1c62103a463afde513b2445
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Joan
J Smith
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Joan Smith. She served in the Land Army.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, J-2
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Joan Smith at her home on the 11th of January. It’s 2018 now, isn’t it?
JS: Yes.
DK: 2018. Yes. Just making sure this is working. So that’s Joan Smith at her home on the 11th of January 2018. If I, if I just put that there.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Just so it picks you up. It’s more important it picks you up rather than me.
JS: Yeah.
DK: And if it’s alright if I —
JS: What are you looking for?
DK: Just wondering if I could sit a bit closer if that’s ok.
JS: Well —
DK: Is there a chair or something I could —
JS: Move this over or —
DK: Yeah.
JS: See if you can get a chair from the kitchen if you —
DK: Can I get a chair from the kitchen?
JS: That may be easier. Yes.
DK: Probably the easiest.
[pause]
JS: He could have used that, couldn’t he?
[pause]
DK: Put that there. If I could just close the door.
JS: Yes. Of course.
DK: So we don’t get the TV if that’s ok.
JS: Well, I could have switched that off. Never mind.
[pause]
DK: I’m just going to take my jacket off. If I’m looking down I’m just doing it to make sure the recorder is working.
JS: Right.
DK: Put that there. Yeah. We’re all ok. So I just wanted to ask you what, what you were doing immediately before the war?
JS: Hairdressing.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JS: Which was not a Reserved Occupation.
DK: Right.
JS: So at eighteen you would have had to have gone in to either factory work or into the forces. So I decided I didn’t want factory work.
DK: No.
JS: So I went in at seventeen and a half.
DK: Right.
JS: To the Land Army. About 1942/43. Something like that.
DK: So, how was recruitment to the Land Army done? Did you have to go along to a Recruitment Centre or [unclear] board?
JS: No. Well, not as they do it now. It was simply one woman was in charge. I lived in Yorkshire. Sheffield at the time.
DK: Right.
JS: And you went there to see her at her big palatial home. She sort of interviewed you, asked you various questions and it wasn’t like as formal as anything. And then, ‘We would let you know.’ Which they did. And then you had to go and collect this uniform, instructions and you were just sent to an area. And I went near Fulbeck.
DK: Right.
JS: And in some areas, I’ve got books on the Land Army and they tell you they’ve had training and all sorts of things. We never got. I think there were different, different ideas as of different people running it.
DK: Right.
JS: The agricultural people. Because we didn’t get any training. You just went to the farm and you just had to pick up as you went along.
DK: Right.
JS: Whatever was going off.
DK: [cough] Excuse me.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Right. So were you given a uniform at all? Or —
JS: Yes. It was sort of corduroy knee, like riding trousers.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Long socks. One pair of shoes. Two of those airtex beige shirts and a green pullover.
DK: Right.
JS: And a hat. And they did say a mackintosh. You weren’t given a mackintosh you were given a coat.
DK: Right.
JS: Which was quite, quite smart actually. And it wasn’t replaced as they said in the thing. It was a case of you had to buy them. I mean, I think we were treated quite shabbily really because we got no money when we came out. No coupons and everything was on coupons then.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And I quite enjoyed it.
DK: So the, so the farm itself. Was it near to where you lived or did you have to —
JS: Oh no. No. You were just sent.
DK: You had to go. Leave home.
JS: Yes. I lived in Yorkshire and this one was at Fulbeck.
DK: Right. Ok.
JS: Here, in Lincolnshire.
DK: So presumably that was the first time you were away from home was it?
JS: Yes. Yes.
DK: So was that a bit of an experience?
JS: Yes. It was actually. Yes. Yes. And I mean if you went in the forces normally they would not let you go home for about a month or they didn’t want you phoning home.
DK: Right.
JS: A month. And of course mobiles weren’t in the picture then.
DK: No.
JS: In case that you did get homesick and you went home and you didn’t want to come back. But yes it was. But everybody else there was in the same position as you anyway.
DK: Right.
JS: So that helped somehow. But a lot depended on what farm you got.
DK: So how many were you there then on this particular farm? How many Land Army ladies?
JS: Oh, there would only be you. If you were living on a farm it would be either one land girl or two.
DK: Right.
JS: Depending on what amount of work because the men that they’d had were called up.
DK: Right. [cough] excuse me.
JS: Do you want a drink?
DK: No. I’m ok thank you. So in your particular case then on this farm was it just yourself or two of you?
JS: No. I was in a hostel.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JS: With about, I should think there was fifteen girls. And it was a big house they’d taken over. And there was a cook there. There was somebody that did the cleaning and you had about six to a room.
DK: Right.
JS: With —
DK: How was that then? Finding yourself in a dormitory with six other girls?
JS: Well, you didn’t care that much.
DK: Yeah.
JS: It was alright.
DK: Did you all get on?
JS: Yes. On the whole.
DK: Yeah.
JS: It was always bits of squabbles about things. Somebody. But on the whole yes. And we had this what they called a matron that was in charge that you had to be in by 10 o’clock unless you’d got special permission. And, and then there would be another one in charge of the work and she would allocate which farms you went to.
DK: Right. That’s what I was going to ask. You didn’t keep going to the same farm. You just went to —
JS: No. Not unless, because most of them —
DK: Yeah.
JS: Wouldn’t have had enough work all through.
DK: Right. So you went to the farm where they needed the workers.
JS: Yes. And if it was five miles away you had to cycle there.
DK: Oh right.
JS: And then do a day’s work and then cycle back. Over five miles she took you in this little mini-van thing she had. But some, some of the farmers didn’t accept us. They found fault with everything because they didn’t think that girls could do the work.
DK: No.
JS: That their men had done. And then we had a lot of Italian prisoners that would be there in groups but they never worked in ones or twos. They always worked in a group.
DK: Right.
JS: But they were very easy to get on with. Very polite. We also had, what do they call it? Objectors.
DK: Conscientious objectors. Yeah.
JS: And I don’t know if they were all alike but the lot we had there the only thing they were objecting to was in case they wouldn’t go in the services was because they might be disabled or they might get killed.
DK: Right.
JS: Because they were vile. They really were.
DK: I was going to say you didn’t get on with the conscientious objectors.
JS: I did not get on with them.
DK: No.
JS: None of us did.
DK: No.
JS: Because this particular lot were really foul mouthed. They really were awful. And I refused in the end to work with them.
DK: Really?
JS: Well, because the leader of them he thought it was very funny if you were doing harvesting. The mice would all run out of the stooks and he would get one and he would try and drop it down the neck of one of the girls or something like that. And he did it when I was working with them and she went hysterical this girl. Well, you could imagine couldn’t you? And I just said if he ever came near me with it, I’d got this pitchfork that I was doing the things with he would get it and he would have get it too.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And I just refused to work with them after that. I just said there’s no way. Because at that time my brother was in the Navy and he’d, they’d just had a, didn’t sink the boat but it was attacked and they were stayed off in Malta for a time. But he was only quite young and I thought why should he be risking his life for scum like this?
DK: So there, you, there was a lot of resentment against them then presumably.
JS: Oh yes. Yes. There were.
DK: Yeah.
JS: If it was raining they didn’t have to turn out at all. If it was raining we did. If it was until 11 o’clock.
DK: Yeah.
JS: If it was still raining then if the farmer couldn’t find you anything to do indoors or some sort of work.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Then you could go back. But other than that you had to be there but they didn’t.
DK: Yeah.
JS: No. They didn’t.
DK: So the Italian prisoners then you got on with them better did you?
JS: Yes. Because they did work.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Whereas the —
DK: Was there a bit of a language barrier or did they manage to speak?
JS: With some of them but you could, I mean you couldn’t have a fluent conversation with them but you could make yourself understood. And they were very courteous. They really were. And as I say they did work. Conscientious objectors didn’t. They’d skive and do all sorts of things. But —
DK: Yeah.
JS: As I say whether that lot was just different from some of them that had got these ideas that there shouldn’t be war well we all know that but —
DK: Yeah. So you don’t think the conscientious objectors had sort of high ideals. They just didn’t want to get hurt.
JS: No. Not that lot. That lot certainly didn’t.
DK: No. No.
JS: Certainly didn’t.
DK: It must have been difficult for you if you’ve got relations serving.
JS: Well, I refused to work with them any longer and I had to go to oh [pause] what’s the garden city up there? Not, the big one. Spa town. I tell you my memory’s going like nothing. Anyway, I had to go there because the committee for the whole area there was there. I had to explain why. He didn’t. And he was never called to whatsits over it at all.
DK: Really.
JS: Or any of them there. But in the end most of it got that most of the girls didn’t have to go and work with them because none of them wanted to work with them.
DK: Right.
JS: So —
DK: There was real resentment then. Yeah. Yeah.
JS: There was real resentment about them. But we just did general farm work. Some, if they went in for rat catching —
DK: Yeah. I was going to say what was your day like? What did, presumably you got up and had something to eat and then you were told where you were going.
JS: Well, you got up. And then before you had breakfast you would go in to the kitchen and there would be a big sink bath there with a cloth in it and there’d be bread in it. Slices of bread. And on the table there might be tomatoes or some cheese or anything that you could put in.
DK: Yeah.
JS: On occasion there might be some cake. And you just had to scramble down there and get what you could because there was always going to be somebody no matter if you all got up at the same time and you’d perhaps be left with one slice of bread and nothing to put in it. So it was a case of get down there first or you didn’t get anything.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And the farmer’s wives on the whole were not that generous about offering you —
DK: No?
JS: Hot drinks. No.
DK: Oh dear.
JS: And yes, it, and then as I say you’d either have to bike or go there to the farm. If you were on just general, mostly it would be probably weeding fields of —
DK: Right.
JS: Vegetables or plucking them out, you know. Thinning them out. But the fields there were about a mile long because it was all flat.
DK: Right.
JS: And all, went on forever.
DK: So you were weeding.
JS: Weeding. Yeah.
DK: Right.
JS: And or you could picking stuff. Picking vegetables. Picking. Picking fruit. It would depend what the farm was doing. Sometimes you’d get farmyard duties.
DK: Right.
JS: With the animals. I never did any milking.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Because I didn’t like that. I liked working with the pigs. I quite liked pigs.
DK: Right.
JS: It was just sort of as I say general.
DK: Yeah.
JS: You’d have to clean the cowsheds out which was a job I hated. And harvesting time of course was absolutely mad. Oh, it was mad. It was.
DK: So how was the harvest done then? What sort of machinery were you using?
JS: The old thing where you got clouds of dust from it. You got all the chaff. You got all down your neck.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And you’d be itching and it was horrible. Like the threshing bit of it but, and you’d have to sort of bind it up. I mean now it’s all done all in one go isn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
JS: There’s no problem at all.
DK: The old combine harvester.
JS: Yeah. Oh yeah, that goes straight through.
DK: Straight through and pick it up. Yeah.
JS: We had to do everything. Then we had to put the stooks together as well. And then when they’d dried out of course the thing would come around. We’d have to chuck them on the cart ready to put them on the haystack. It was hard work.
DK: So you say initially the farmers were a bit shall we say cynical about ladies doing the work.
JS: Oh, yes. They were. Yes.
DK: Did they change their mind after a while?
JS: Yes. They did.
DK: Right.
JS: They did. Yes.
DK: Did they come to appreciate what you were doing?
JS: Well, yes. They, they just refused to accept the fact that girls could do what the blokes had done before and I think in a lot of cases we did a blooming sight more than what the men had done.
DK: And did they, the farmers change their attitudes towards you in the end or —
JS: Oh yes. Yes.
DK: Right.
JS: They were grudgingly but they did. And well they couldn’t have managed without us because the men were all being called up that were of a young age and if they were old.
DK: Yeah.
JS: They weren’t going to get that much work out of them were they?
DK: So how long were your days then? How long were you working on the, on the fields and on the farms?
JS: Well, crikey. Well, we’d have to be there for sometimes 8 o’clock. Half past eight. And in the summer it would be sort of long hours because of the amount of, you know the field work and everything else that had to be done.
DK: So what time did you finish then?
JS: About six. Or sometimes eight. And you used to get Saturdays off but sometimes you couldn’t rely on that. If the farmer wanted you there Saturday and you were at that farm you would have to go in.
DK: Right.
JS: But you didn’t get double time or anything like that like they do now.
DK: So what was the pay like then?
JS: If you were in a hostel you got sixteen shillings and you got your board and lodging. That was paid by the agricultural thing.
DK: Right.
JS: To the Land Army. By the government to the Land Army and if you were actually in a farm house I think it was about thirty two shillings but you would have to pay the farmer for your board and lodging.
DK: Yeah.
JS: So it wasn’t very highly paid but I suppose it was [pause] and it varied from areas.
DK: Right.
JS: If the pay was more in other areas they got the corresponding amount. And you didn’t get free travel. You got one free train pass a year.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Which isn’t very much. If you were ill that was tough. You didn’t get paid. And, well as I say they didn’t, I don’t think there was any appreciation. Not ‘til after the war. And it was some years back now I went to a big service at Lincoln Cathedral.
DK: Right. For all the Land Army girls.
JS: For all the land armies.
DK: Yeah.
JSDK: And it was sad in a way because you thought they’d all been young. All been land girls. And there were so many in wheelchairs, so many on walking frames and you looked around and you thought oh lord. This is —
DK: Did you, did you stay in touch with any of your Land Army colleagues?
JS: Well, for a while.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Yes. And then they’ve all gradually died off or emigrated or whatever. I mean some married. Married some of the farmers or the farmer’s sons.
DK: Really. So some of the farmer’s appreciated them in the end then [laughs]
JS: I had no intention of marrying any farmer.
DK: No. No.
JS: I’d had enough because we were —
DK: Do you think what the Land Army did then in the sort of bigger picture of the war was it something really important do you think?
JS: Oh, yes. It was. Because in, from Fulbeck I was moved up to near Selby. And that was a place called Bourn but not spelled with an E on the end.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And there was a big aerodrome there and that, that was a Bomber Command and we used to grow their vegetables for them.
DK: Right.
JS: Go on the field. And the fields had belonged to the farmers but —
DK: Yeah.
JS: I don’t know what arrangement they had but we used to grow all their vegetables and everything that they needed for that and you know that was, that was quite all right. But we used to get invited to the dances and anything going on there and they would provide transport for us and bring us back and that was good. But —
DK: So you saw quite a bit then of the Bomber Command then. Of the airfields and the aircraft.
JS: Oh yeah. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Yes. Because we worked on the fields just off from where they were flying really.
DK: And this was Bourn, was it?
JS: Bourn in Yorkshire.
DK: Right. Yeah. So, what are your memories of that then? Of the airfields then.
JS: Oh that, that was, it was a lot [pause] a lot nicer. A lot nicer because I think the farmers there were beginning to accept you and realise that —
DK: Yeah.
JS: If they didn’t, if we were not there they’d be in a real pickle.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Because some of them had been very poor farmers. I mean they were said about a poor farmer didn’t they?
DK: Yeah.
JS: And some of them were very small but with the war that made them because they had to extend with government help and grow crops or get more animals in. So you don’t hear very much of the poor farmer these days.
DK: No. That’s very true.
JS: And, you know as I say it was [pause] and then socially when you moved up there we got invited to all these things at the aerodrome.
DK: Right.
JS: And so —
DK: So what did you think of the airmen when you met them at these do’s?
JS: Well, they were very nice [laughs] I didn’t meet my husband there.
DK: No. Oh. So, if I can ask then where did you meet your husband then? That was during the war then that you met him.
JS: No. Just after.
DK: Right. Ok.
JS: Just after because he was out in Burma and they were the last to be called back.
DK: Right.
JS: Because they called them the forgotten army out there.
DK: Yeah. So, what was he actually doing in Burma? Do you know?
JS: They were flying the Gurkhas out to the Japanese.
DK: Oh right.
JS: To —
DK: To Burma.
JS: From Burma.
DK: Right.
JS: I’ve got, he’s written a thing in here [pause] It’s a chap that much like you’re doing.
DK: Oh right.
JS: And he, he always had a big [pause] that’s, this is all from the Aircrew Association he belonged to.
DK: Ok.
JS: And it’s the memories.
DK: Can I just have a look at the cover of the book?
JS: Oh yes. You can.
DK: I’m just reading this for the benefit of the recording here. So this is a book here. It’s, “Wings on the Whirlwind.” Compiled and edited by Anne Grimshaw. And it’s by the Northwest Essex and —
JS: Yeah.
DK: East Hertfordshire branch of the Aircrew Association.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Well, I’ve never, never seen a copy of this before.
JS: Haven’t you? No.
DK: So, it’s —
JS: It’s the, it’s the story of all those who were in it.
DK: All the various people who were —
JS: That belonged to it and their —
DK: Right.
JS: Their sort of —
DK: So these are your husband’s pages then is it?
JS: Yes.
DK: So that’s —
JS: It’s alright. I can put it in after.
DK: Is that alright there? So that’s George Smith.
JS: Yes.
DK: And he was a navigator with 357 Squadron.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Ok.
JS: And that is [pause] Yeah. That’s him.
DK: He’s on the end there.
JS: Yeah.
DK: So George Smith. So, I’ll just read this out for the recording.
JS: Yes. Of course. Yes.
DK: If I may. “George Smith was accepted for aircrew in July 1941 and trained as a navigator. He flew Wellingtons at 14 Operational Training Unit and Stirlings at 1651 Heavy Conversion Unit in 1943. In 1944 he was posted to South East Asia Command as a Liberator reinforcement.” So he’s flying the Liberators then. Yeah. “And was with the air arm of 357 Special Duties Squadron of the Special Operations Executive.”
JS: Well, that’s when they were taking the Gurkhas out there.
DK: Right. So he was navigator on Liberators.
JS: Yeah.
DK: Doing, doing some cloak and dagger stuff by the looks of it.
JS: Oh yes. it was. He was —
DK: But it says here he was made to sign the Official Secrets Act.
JS: Yeah. Well, I never knew anything about this for years after we’d been married
DK: Really.
JS: Yeah.
DK: So he never spoke about it to you either.
JS: No. The only time he [coughs] was when he was, he wasn’t very well and he kept on about this dark patch of water and, ‘I can’t see.’
DK: Right.
JS: And I could never make out what it was you know. And I’d say to him afterwards, ‘What? What is this dark patch of water?’ And he said, ‘I don’t want to talk about it.’ And from his pilot who we were in touch with he said, ‘I can tell you about that,’ he said, ‘Because if we went out with George we knew we’d get back home,’ he said, ‘Because he’d have his head down.’ And they didn’t have all the instruments they have now.
DK: Right.
JS: For navigation. I mean it really had to be done and plotted all out. And he said, ‘It was pitch black. We couldn’t have lights on and everything was pitch black,’ he said, ‘And we had to fly very low over this great big expanse of dark water.’ And he said, ‘That’s what he’s talking about.’ he said, ‘Because it would be mile on mile on mile.’ I mean, sometimes they were flying for twenty two hours.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Which is a hell of a long time. And that’s what he got in and he used to keep saying when he went in to the nursing, when he was dying, it all came back.
DK: Right.
JS: And he’d be saying, ‘Get me out of here,’ he said. Or, ‘Tell them to come and get it over and done with,’ because he thought he’d been captured and the Japs had got him. And it was awful. It really was.
DK: So being captured by the Japanese was something that he worried about for a long time.
JS: Well, yes because they used to drop these Gurkhas and he used to say I mean, well I still send a donation to Gurkhas every year because I think they’re marvellous. And he used to say the way we treated them afterwards was appalling.
DK: Yeah.
JS: But he used to say they were young lads that went out there, he said and you knew you were dropping them right into the Japs, where the Japs were, he said and you thought are they going to ever survive? And he said it was, you know really he said and if they were your friend they were your friend for life and they would do anything for you.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He said they were wonderful blokes. But I think it used to get to him. The fact that, you know once they went out of that hatch that was it, you know. Whether with the blessed Japanese. But he was [pause] they were there for quite a long time after a lot were demobbed.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And —
DK: I notice here, in the picture here he’s at Duxford isn’t he? In the 1970s.
JS: Yes.
DK: So —
JS: Yeah. That’s when we went back. That was when Duxford was beginning because he used to go at weekends.
DK: Right.
JS: And that’s when they started rebuilding and cannibalising some of the aircraft.
DK: Yeah.
JS: To make them show. It wasn’t a showplace like it is now.
DK: Yeah. The big —
JS: It was just a hangar with all these bits and pieces in and volunteers like himself. We lived in Bishops Stortford then.
DK: Right.
JS: He used to go over there at weekends and help with it. And now it’s well a great big showplace, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. So he, is that him with his crew there then? Is it?
JS: Where’s my glasses? I think it is. We’ve got photographs around the house.
DK: Right.
JS: Yeah. That’s him. That’s him there. The second one. That’s the pilot, Geoff.
DK: Right.
JS: And these two are ones that lived. This one. Wally. He’s a farmer in Canada.
DK: Oh right.
JS: And he used to come over about once every three or four years.
DK: So your husband stayed in touch with his crew.
JS: Oh yeah. They all met.
DK: Over the years then. Yeah.
JS: Every three or four years he used to come over from Canada.
DK: Right.
JS: And then they used to have a big meeting.
DK: Right.
JS: And we used to go to —
DK: Can I ask you when he passed away then? Was it —
JS: Eleven years ago.
DK: Eleven years ago. ok.
JS: So —
DK: So he didn’t really talk about what he did much then.
JS: No. There wasn’t anybody to —
DK: No.
JS: He’d talk about the Air Force as such because as I say he immediately belonged to the Aircrew Association. And then before that when we, he was still working he used to help run a cadets for the Air Force.
DK: Right.
JS: Voluntary.
DK: Right.
JS: He used to go and do.
DK: So he actually left the Air Force immediately after the war, did he? With his —
JS: Well, when he was demobbed and came back. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And then he went as a surveyor but I think he found that a bit dull.
DK: Right.
JS: But you know that’s the way.
DK: And, and yourself. When you left the Land Army what did you do? Do then?
JS: I came back. I went back in to hairdressing.
DK: Oh right.
JS: Until I got married.
DK: So did you actually meet your husband when he was in the Air Force. Or —
JS: No. He’d just come back. He’d just been demobbed.
DK: Right. Right. Ok.
JS: When I met him.
DK: You met after he was demobbed.
JS: And, you know. We met and we were married within [pause] got engaged after a fortnight and then we were married in the two months.
DK: Right.
JS: And I know my dad said, ‘It’ll never last. It won’t last. It’s too soon. They don’t know each other.’
DK: But it did.
JS: But it did.
DK: That’s good to know. So your, just for the recording here so your son in law was in the Air Force as well.
JS: Yes.
DK: And, and he’s retired now, is he?
JS: Oh yeah. About three years ago I think it is now.
DK: And you say he was a navigator.
JS: Yes. He, well engineer.
DK: Right.
JS: Because that’s, I don’t think, they don’t have navigators.
DK: So a flight engineer then.
JS: Yes.
DK: And he was on the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight then.
JS: Yeah. Yeah. He did all the flights. And after my husband died he got permission to take his ashes. And he trained at [pause] oh gosh. Not, what’s the one over that way. The aerodrome.
DK: Coningsby.
JS: Coningsby.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He trained there and there’s a bottom road and you can cut across this farmer’s field to the back of it which when they were late in at night they used to sneak in so that, you know.
DK: Yeah.
JS: They could stay out late.
DK: Yeah.
JS: And he got permission to fly over and drop his ashes on the grounds there. And we were there. And the funny thing was the farmer was in the next field on a tractor and me being in the Land Army just as this came over it was weird. But we go there every year now and there’s a long avenue of trees down it right to the thing.
DK: So his ashes were dropped from the Lancaster then were they?
JS: Yes.
DK: Right. Ok.
JS: And then they did a, like a salute around and came away and then every year now on that date because it was on his birthday that he was buried —
DK: Right.
JS: We go over there. We’ll put some flowers and each tree as we go down, we’re running out of trees now and just then we go out for a meal which, we do that every year.
DK: So for the recording your son in law’s name is?
JS: Ian [Malton]
DK: Ian [Malton] Right. And he has now left the RAF as well then.
JS: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: He still goes there. He runs the shoots there for because there’s lots of rabbits and things on there that are a pest to the aircraft. And they go to the annual dinners and things there at —
DK: Coningsby.
JS: No. Not at Coningsby. He’s not at Coningsby. He’s at [pause] Cranwell.
DK: Cranwell. I see. Right. And how long was he with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight? Do you know? Was it —
JS: For some time because he was up in Scotland at [pause] God my memory.
DK: Don’t worry.
JS: What’s the big one?
DK: Lossiemouth is it?
JS: Lossiemouth.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JS: And he was there for, they moved up there from Brize Norton.
DK: So was he on the Shackletons then?
JS: Yes.
DK: Oh. Right. Ok. That explains why he then went to the Lancaster then if he was on the Shackletons.
JS: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Right.
JS: And he was at Brize Norton. And my daughter was in the RAF as well. That’s how they met. And then he was moved up to Scotland and she didn’t want to go and she said, ‘It’s like, it looks like the end of the world up there. There’s nothing.’ But in the end she didn’t want to leave. She really liked it. And then he was moved back down to Cranwell.
DK: Right.
JS: And then they moved the Memorial thing to [pause] Oh. The other airport. But now they’ve moved it from there now and its elsewhere.
DK: Yeah.
JS: But no, he enjoyed that. He —
DK: So just going, going back to the purpose of the interview was about the Land Army. How do you all these years later look back on your time in the Land Army?
JS: Yes. I wouldn’t want to go back to doing it.
DK: No.
JS: Because, well of course you’re younger then. You’ve got more up and go haven’t you? But it was hard work and it was pretty miserable at times when you were clogged up with mud and it was raining and you were feeling miserable and thinking what am I doing this for? But as they would say, ‘You’re helping to feed the nation.’
DK: Yeah. Do you think that was important then? The —
JS: Not at the time I didn’t [laughs]
DK: No. Do you think you became a better person? You learned something from it or [unclear]
JS: I suppose I must have done.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Yes. And the fact that you were, because I only had one brother, I had no sisters.
DK: Right.
JS: So it was, you know I mean plenty of girlfriends but they, it’s not the same as having, living with somebody is it?
DK: Yeah.
JS: And —
DK: So after the Land Army then you went back home,
JS: Yes. To live at home.
DK: You lived with your parents.
JS: Yes.
DK: And did they notice a change with you at all do you think? Or —
JS: No. I don’t think so.
DK: So you sort of slipped back into that family life.
JS: Into what you were doing. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JS: Well not like now. As soon as they start work they’ve got a place of their own haven’t they?
DK: Yeah.
JS: Well, then you more or less stayed at home until you got married. You couldn’t afford to have a place of your own anywhere.
DK: Ok then. Well, that’s, that’s marvellous. That’s been very interesting listening to you.
JS: Right.
DK: I’ll end the recording there but thank you very much.
JS: Ok.
DK: I’ll switch that off.
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Interview with Joan Smith
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2018-01-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Pending review
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00:33:53 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Selby
Japan
Burma
Description
An account of the resource
Before the war Joan worked as a hairdresser. At 17 and a half she applied for the Land Army and was interviewed in her home town of Sheffield. Her first posting was to a farm in Fulbeck. She and about fourteen other girls stayed in a hostel with about six in a room. Their board and lodge were paid by the government and they earned about sixteen shillings a week. Some farmers did not think that girls could do the work of a man but eventually they appreciated how hard they worked. Joan remembered a group of Italian prisoners, who were hard working and courteous, working on the farm. There were also some conscientious objectors who Joan refused to work with as they were lazy and foul mouthed and there was a lot of resentment.
The girls started work at about 8.00 o’clock or half past, finishing at about 6.00. During the summer and harvest time they worked longer hours. They would mostly be weeding the fields and thinning out the crops or pulling fruit and vegetables. Joan enjoyed working with the pigs and spoke about the hard work at harvest time. After Fulbeck Joan was moved to Bourn near Selby, Yorkshire, where there was a Bomber Command station. The girls would be invited to the camp dances.
When Joan left the Land Army she went back into hairdressing until she got married. She met her husband, George, just after the war and they married two months later. George had been a navigator with 357 Squadron on B-24 flying Gurkhas from Burma to Japan. When he was demobbed, he worked as a surveyor and later volunteered at Duxford. Their daughter was in the Royal Air Force and married a flight engineer. Joan said that being in the Land Army had been hard work and miserable at times.
Contributor
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Sue Smith
Julie Williams
14 OTU
1651 HCU
357 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
Heavy Conversion Unit
home front
love and romance
navigator
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Fulbeck
RAF Riccall
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1153/11711/AThomasJH180122.1.mp3
43e5b7f773f7c286c6aad8364097a955
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Title
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Thomas, John Henry
J H Thomas
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. Collection concerns John Henry Thomas (b. 1923, 424515 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 102 Squadron. Collection contains an oral history interview, memoirs of his service and other events and a painting.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Thomas and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-01-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Thomas, JH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JH: Good morning, this is John Horsburgh and today I’m interviewing John Thomas. John was a pilot with 102 Squadron, Ceylon Squadron, flying Halifax heavy bombers 1944 1945. So this is one of the interviews for the, being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln, in UK, which is being opened this year, incidentally, and it’s part of the oral history project. We are at Foster in New South Wales, at John’s home. [Tone] Good morning John, thank you for being available for the interview.
JT: That’s fine.
JH: And perhaps we can start, as we always do in these, when you were born, your birthdate and where, and something about your childhood, your parents and schooling, and then we’ll talk about when you came to join up. So when were you born?
JT: 14th September, 1923, at Waverley, in Sydney.
JH: And so your parents, I gather your, your father came out from England originally.
JT: Yes, that’s right, in 1910, as a twenty one year old.
JH: Did he, did he see any service in the first world war?
JT: No, no, but his father had served in the Royal Navy and his grandfather had served in the British Army.
JH: So you were born in Waverley and were you brought up there?
JT: No, we lived in Woollahra, initially, until I was nine years old and then we moved to Bondi. And lived in Bondi until I was fifteen and then moved to North Bondi, into a larger house and I went to school initially at Woollahra to the Holy Cross Convent primary school,then at St. Anne’s Bondi Beach primary school, and then to St. Charles Waverley, Christian Brothers Primary School and then went to St Mary’s College in the city for high school.
JH: So a real Sydney-sider.
JT: Yes.
JH: And so when you left school what did you do?
JT: I was apprenticed as a cabinet maker to a firm called Ricketson Thorpe. At this stage, it was the start of 1940 and I left school in fourth year. And somebody had decided I should get some experience, they possibly foresaw that I’d be going into the services and instead of doing the final year at school they put me in amongst men to get some real experience. Unfortunately, when it came to joining up, enlisting, Ricketson Thorpe had become a reserved industry because they were making parts for aircraft. However, the foreman, who was a World War One Digger, said ‘Ignore that, if you want to go, go and enlist’. Which I did. But this brought me in to conflict with the commissioner for manpower, a Mr Bella, Bellmore, B e l l e m o r e, but because he was fat everyone referred to him as Mr Bellymore! [Laugh] He, he must have taken an instant dislike to me, I’m joking, he realised no doubt that an apprentice position was not being filled, so he was looking for an apprentice who would be full time there and of all places he sent me to was the taxation department where I got shuffled from branch to branch. But then the Army called me up, which they shouldn’t have done ‘cause I was on the air force reserve and I finished up in Ciara, and well the showground to start with Ciara, and then Albury. I missed two air force call up because of a cranky Army major who reckoned I was in the Army for keeps. But eventually a recruiting flight lieutenant came round and he had me on the train to Sydney the following morning.
JH: What was it that, early on, that you decided to sign up for the air force?
JT: The, I thought initially, the in time, no doubt, I’d be conscripted and I, it was going to be my choice not theirs and the best way that I could do the most was to, if I was fit enough, to join aircrew. It turned out I was fit enough, and that was the reason: it was I felt I could do the most there.
JH: So your training started at Bradfield Park I believe.
JT: Number two initial training unit. Three months there, or twelve weeks actually. And then in February, in January, sorry, in December, early December went to Narrandera, eight weeks at Narrandera on the BFTS on Tiger Moths, seventy hours flying time, and in early February went to Point Cook which was an eighteen week course, finishing in, on the, received my wings on 25th of June 1943, went on embarkation leave, went to, then went to Brisbane by train, embarked on the, an American transport ship the Nordern, eleven thousand ton ship, which made a eighteen day non-stop trip to San Francisco. Disembarked there, and went to Angel Island, an American Army base in San Francisco Bay, four days there, with trips into San Francisco, then went up to Oakland, got on the train and went across America, and the transport was far superior to anything in Australia. Got to New York, went aboard the Aquitania, two days later it sailed for Greenock, a five and a half day trip, solo, with four thousand aircrew and I think it was seven thousand, seven thousand eight hundred American troops on board. Two meals a day, rather cramped, but quite an experience. Landed in Greenock, overnight trip to Brighton. We were, went on leave, disembarkation leave, went over to Wales for seven days, came back and another chap and I by the name of Ken Jagger, who incidentally I had gone to primary school at Waverley with, we were sent to Hullavington, the Central Flying School, for testing, this was testing the standard of training throughout the Empire Air Scheme. So we flew there with squadron leaders and wing commanders. And that station had ninety six types of aircraft on it and we went, crawled over every one of them! Went back to Brighton and from there was posted to Church Lawford in, what county was that? I can’t remember the name of the country, anyway it was near Rugby, and did three months there, including a BAT course, where instead of flying under the hood flew normally because it was in fog and rain all the time, perfect conditions, did twenty hours on the BAT course, then was sent to a holding depot, drome course at Snettersfield, which we spent three weeks there, couldn’t fly because the weather kept getting, cancelling flying. From there went to Acast, went to Moreton in the Marsh and did a nine week course, Operational Training Unit on Wellingtons and it was there my instructor, Flying Officer Duncan Dobbie, known as Drunken Duncan, on one occasion we went over to the satellite to pick up an aircraft, arriving back at Moreton, on a wet, windless day, on the shortest runway, pointing towards the six hundred foot hill, says do a flapless landing. I objected, but under instruction, I took the order, under protest, did the flapless, flapless landing, and we aquaplaned all the way down the runway, ran into a ploughed field, furrows at right angles, aircraft stood on its nose, my harness was perished, safety harness was snapped, I was flung into, headfirst into the windscreen. Didn’t know it at the time, but suffered total spinal compression, for which later I became a TPI.
JH: Jack, what type of aircraft was that?
JT: That was a Wellington.
JH: The Wellington. Yes.
JT: I was taken up to the hospital, the young doctor dressed, put a field dressing on the cut on my hand, and gave me some headache tablets.
JH: A TPI for those who don’t know what a TPI -
JT: Totally and Permanently Incapacitated, the, which I got in, I received that in 1989. It took them all that time to find out what the problem was, with my spinal problem. So from Moreton in the Marsh we went to an aerodrome in Yorkshire, called Acaster Melbis which was a -
JH: Had you crewed up at this stage?
JT: Yes, we crewed up at Moreton in Marsh.
JH: Okay. Tell me a little about how that happened, and how you all came together and a bit about your crew.
JT: Well, the, you’re just all put in a room of all the different categories and it’s up to you to sort yourself out.
JH: Yeah. And you had some mates there already?
JT: No.
JH: Or you didn’t know these people, other pilots.
JT: I only knew other pilots.
JH: Other pilots. You didn’t know -
JT: No. I didn’t know any of the other people. Ross was the first one, Ross Pearson was the first one. I thought he looks a likely looking lad. And then the, flight, we picked up our bomb aimer who’d been older than us, twenty eight year old, Jack White, had done his bomb aiming, he was a scrubbed pilot, he had done the bomb aiming course in Canada and had been an instructor there on the bomb aiming for some seven months, so we thought we had an experienced bomb aimer, which he was. Then we, sorry, I’m wrong there. The first bomb aimer we picked up was a Polish, and we picked him up, then we picked up the rear gunner, then the navigator, then the mid upper gunner. But there was no sort of order to it, you sort of, you were grabbing people in case there, no one else was left. We only did a couple of flights when the Polish bomb aimer decided that he wasn’t, didn’t want to stay with a non-Polish crew, he wanted to go to a Polish squadron. He went and saw the Chief Ground Instructor who bowed to his wishes, and we stood around then for the next month, waiting for the next intake.
JH: Yes.
JT: And that’s when Jack White came along and we grabbed, as soon as we saw him we grabbed him straight away. So we did our training there in Moreton in the Marsh, went on to Acaster Melbis which was a ground training establishment there run by the Kings Royal Rifle Corps and the Grenadier Guards. And we had simulated parachute training, unarmed combat, and all sort of things went on there. And it was there that we did the, a test, a night flying, a night eyesight test, which was a four day thing where you wore these extra dark glasses all the time. I’m just going to get [paper shuffling].
JH: Just pausing for a short break here. Back again.
JT: Yes. We’re back at this point where we’re doing this night eyesight testing for night vision. It’s a four day course, you wear these extra dark glasses, where you can only see a metre and a half in front of you at the most, and you go through all these exercises, training exercises and tests, but also a physical test which is carried out in the gym, and you play a form of hockey, but instead of a puck you’ve got a rope figure eight. I believe its an Irish game, but in the RAF they called it shinty for obvious reasons. Hacked on the shins! People used to come from far and wide on the station to watch these matches ‘cause they were so comical. Because of your lack of vision, often you lost contact with where the figure eight was and you had a couple of blokes hacking away and then nothing there! It was comic to watch. People would hit go to follow it and they’d be running in the wrong direction! It was entertainment and but quite unexpected. However this was a very effective programme because the improvement in night vision could be anything up to four hundred per cent. Quite remarkable.
JH: Yeah. My dad told me once they used to eat carrots. They used to think eating carrots all the time would improve night vision. Did you do that?
JT: Yes, and the reason given later on was that the Ministry of Agriculture Production because they were growing such huge quantities of carrots in England, in Britain, they were encouraging people to eat them and so they put out this story that it was good for the night vision. However, in recent years research by food scientists has revealed that it does [emphasis] help night vision! Haha! Yes. So that was Acaster Melbis. From there we went to Riccall, 16 58 Heavy Conversion Unit.
JH: And by, by now you were becoming a crew, getting to know each other.
JT: This is where we picked up the flight engineer.
JH: The flight engineer, yes.
JT: And I had as my flying instructor there, Squadron, my rear gunner was John Williamson, and my English flying instructor at Riccall was Squadron Leader John Williamson, and one of the finest gentlemen I’ve ever met in my life. Wonderful man; wonderful instructor. And I had never liked the Wellington, I considered it, because of its geodic construction, because it wallowed and mushed a bit in the air. It was a pleasure to get on, back to an aircraft that was directing its controls. I took the Halifax like a duck to water and it, it was a very pleasant time there at Riccall, except for something we witnessed, an episode there that was quite frightening. We were marching back to lunch one day and, this was a number of aircrews, we, marching along, and in comes a Mosquito, making an emergency landing, and his problem, it was a night flying Mosquito, with Polish pilot and navigator, they’d been up for a test flight, the undercarriage had failed to come down properly, one leg had come down and locked, the other leg had come down half way, couldn’t, and neither could be retracted. So after some violent aerobatics to try and shake it down, it was decided he’d make a landing, and he came in, fire wagons and ambulance were waiting at the ready at the end of the runway, he came in, landed hard [emphasis] which snapped the leg that was down, it went up through the wing, he went into the belly landing position, but when it went through the wing it set the fuel tank on fire. Here it is scooting along the runway, and by the time it got down to about thirty mile an hour, they jettisoned their hood, were both out running along the starboard wing and jumped off.
JH: Still going along.
JT: And rolled on the grass safely. The aircraft burnt out, and the following, when the following day, they pushed the engines to the side, and the following day there were these two little molten masses that had been the merlin engines and they filled a hole in the runway that was about six hundred by six hundred and about eight hundred mils deep caused by the fire. So that was quite a thing to watch, but while it was scooting along the runway, it also, the fire had set the ammunition off and the twenty millimetre cannons and 303s were shooting straight ahead, which happened to be a railway line at right angles to the end of the runway and there was a train going past.
JH: Oh!
JT: And all the people were watching the, this display, until the guard ran along and told them there was ammunition and then the train appeared to be empty. However, nobody was hit, fortunately.
JH: That’s an amazing story.
JT: Yeah. So from Riccall, we went to Pocklington, to 102 Squadron and that’s when I converted there, in the first week, on to the mark three, which was noticeably, outperformed the twos that I’d trained on at Riccall, and from there we started our operations.
JH: So your first, I’m sure you’ll never forget your first operations.
JT: My first operation was unsuccessful. The first operation was a flying bomb site in France and -
JH: Poisson.
JT: It was a night trip, it was, the only night that I can remember the sky being totally black, because there was a layer of cloud at about four thousand feet, we were flying south at two thousand feet and shortly after take off, the Gee packed up. So when we got down to where the point where the point was where we turn eastwards towards the French coast and the bomb site, we were well west of where we should have been, in fact I think we may have been over London as we were lucky we weren’t fired upon. So when we turned east, suddenly the target area was all lit up and it was so far away, the raid was all over, we were still headed towards it, so all we could do was head back to base, which we did. And when we got back to base, the, er I, on the way back we asked Darky for guidance, and Darky guided us to base, but unfortunately being a first time operation pilot I was very green, I never thought to ask the controller should I go and drop the bombs out in the safety zone, and he never suggested it, he also was a beginner. So we landed with our full bomb load. Safely. Fortunately. But I got a bit of a bollocking from the Wing Commander. This was before Wing Commander Wilson had arrived. This was the earlier Wing Commander whose name I can’t remember.
JH: Wow! And I suppose if you return early you, you get an extra grilling at the debriefing to show why you, you turned back. Is that correct?
JT: Yeah, well we turned back, as I explained to them, we couldn’t find the target, and when we sighted the target it was all over, was too late to go there. We couldn’t find it anyway, by that time.
JH: So the next raid you did, the next raids I believe were daylight raids.
JT: Yes, day light raids.
JH: Yes. What was the target on those?
JT: Those were, if I remember correctly were -
JH: In Paris.
JT: The next one, that’s right, no, the second one was a bomb site, flying bomb site, and the third one was, Paris, the railway yards in Villiers, and that was a daylight.
JH: So what was, this is in 84, what was the morale like on the station? D-Day had happened, things were, the tide was turning.
JT: Well we were at Riccall. Ah, well this is interesting. We were at Riccall when D-Day occurred. We were in the hut getting ready to go to breakfast. And a chap, one Canadian had a radio, and suddenly we heard the announcer, he’s yelling and saying ‘D-Day, D-Day!’; we hear the announcement that troops had fought and landed on the coast of France. It was a vile day with south west winds and low cloud at, on the French coast, but at Riccall it was a lovely sunny day, very pleasant with a light wind blowing. Totally opposite to what was happening where the troops were. So when we got, by the time we got to the squadron yes, morale was quite good on the squadron. But we still had quite considerable losses. What, in my time on the squadron we lost thirty three aircraft. The worst being one time we were on leave, we were on our six day leave and on the Monday night the squadron lost five aircraft, on the Tuesday night the squadron lost five aircraft, and on the Wednesday night they lost three. They lost thirteen aircraft in three nights. And practically all of them were pilots, crews on their first trip.
JH: Hmm. People have told me that the crews tended to bond together quite a bit and not, not generally making friends with other crews so much.
JT: We did there.
JH: We did there, yeah, yeah. So, then, looking at the sorties looked like you were quite busy August, September, October. Perhaps you’d like to mention, you’d like to single out any particular raids there, in that period?
JT: The Duisburg raid. But before I get to Duisburg, 8th of August.
JH: Here we are, Belle Croix. Ah, yes! What about talking about the Falaise Gap.
JT: Yes. That’s it. This was the episode, the Falaise Gap. This was the British Army and the Canadian First Army were held up because the ground in between them and the town of Caen was so bomb cratered that the tanks couldn’t travel there. So it was decided we’d carry out a raid with thousand pound bombs which would level the whole area and we were carrying twelve one thousand pounders, flying at twelve thousand feet, there two hundred and thirty aircraft on the raid and we were in the first wave, and very much up towards the front of the first wave.
JH: How were the targets marked, Jack, on that?
JT: Oh, there was a sodium line of flares in front of the army which was called the bombing line which we had to be beyond and we were to be six hundred yards beyond that before any bombs were dropped. We had just released our bombs when there was a huge [emphasis] explosion in the forest the best of half a mile to the left of us. And as it turned out subsequent, there was a seven thousand pound bomb dump plus a Panzer bivouacked in the forest. The blast, the explosions of the seven thousand ton dump set fire to the forest and the Panzer was virtually destroyed and the personnel, for the most part, about two thirds apparently, and a lot of them were burnt to death. The raid was immediately cancelled because of the, the effects of this huge explosion of the bomb dump, and we thought we’d been hit by flak because we, I lost contro,l the air started to flutter down but it was the blast causing it and we flew out of it and we were safe. It took me years later to figure and I think I have figured it out that the aircraft that dropped its bombs on the bomb dump, at the moment that the bomb aimer was dropping his bombs, I think he hit the slipstream of the aircraft in front of him, it tilted the aircraft to about a forty five degree angle which skewed the bombs into the forest. And that’s my reading, understanding and reading of it anyway.
JH: Hmm. What was the, the outcome on the ground? Were they, they made rapid progress I presume.
JT: No, they, the raid was cancelled, see.
JH: Yes.
JT: No, what happened was, it was replanned for another day.
JH: Yeah. They still couldn’t get through.
JT: Still couldn’t get through.
JH: The bad ground.
JT: So the, another raid was planned on which Halifaxes and Lancs went in again, but we weren’t on it, and they cleared the ground and the troops were able to go through and capture Caen.
JH: Hmm. It’s an amazing story. What about, you were telling me about a near miss. Was that on one of these raids?
JT: No, Duisburg is the next one.
JH: Yes, let’s talk about that. Yeah.
JT: Duisburg, it was a, yes, October, 14th of October ‘44. Was a lovely sunny day, we were due on target at 10am. This was a massive [emphasis] raid, it was the ten thousand ton raid on Duisburg. Bomber Command in the morning at 10am, USAAF at around midday or a little later, and then Bomber Command back at eleven o’clock that night. We were on the 10am one and about twenty minutes before, we were on the approach to Duisburg, about twenty minutes before the target, looked across to, down to the right and here we could see five V2s on a hardstanding and just one of them, one of them took off but, and it headed towards England. Then a little later they fired a second one which took on a distorted path and flew away as though it was headed towards Sweden. Then the third one fired, and it went towards, right back out of control and headed toward Russia, the eastern front. Then the fourth one, by this time we were up level with them, the fourth one took off, rose about three hundred feet in the air, fell back and blew the whole place to pieces.
JH: My goodness.
JT: We applauded.
JH: My goodness. Yeah. Completely unexpected that incident, yeah. Hmm. Yes. Well, that, that’s an interesting one.
JT: Yes.
JH: You were telling me also, before we were chatting, um, a Halifax from 35 Squadron came up.
JT: That was on Kiel, not me. Back there on Kiel.
JH: Ah. You got a good tip on night flying.
JT: On night flying. How to avoid the night fighters.
JH: Perhaps you’d like to tell me a bit.
JT: Yes, I’ll go back to that one, that date there, which was the Kiel raid. There, there it, yes.
JH: Kiel, yes, August 1944.
JT: Yes. The Kiel raid was a night raid. It was a strange night, it was misty, but visibility was about half a mile, I think it, maybe there was moonlight, and it could have been moonlight. Anyway, we were flying through this, straight and level, along this there not an aircraft in sight anywhere, none of ours, couldn’t see any other bombers, then the rear gunner reported an aircraft behind us and coming up astern. He wasn’t sure what it was until it got a bit closer and then he said oh it’s another Halifax. This Halifax came up and overtook us and it was weaving all the time, weaving, weaving and undulating in flight, and I realised what it was, it was a Pathfinder flying up through the main force and he gave, I took the tip: do not [emphasis] ever fly straight and level because you’re a sitting duck target. Keep moving, skid, undulate up and do everything unexpected and that way you were a difficult target. Which I proceeded to do on the rest of my tour. I think that has a lot to do with me being here today.
JH: It’s a good story Jack. So, tell me a little about life on the base by then, Pocklington.
JT: Oh, Pocklington. A wonderful base. A very good, good mix of, very [emphasis] mixed crowd. The most mixed crowd of any outfit I’ve ever been with. I think I’ve a note of it here in one of. Now where is it. Where is it, I can’t find it. Anyway, I’ll do it from memory.
JH: Yes, that’s fine. Oh dear! The wind!
JT: The wind. I hope this, the wind isn’t interfering with your sound.
JH: I think it’ll be okay.
JT: Anyway, there were English, when I say English, they were Scot, there were Welsh, there were Irish, there were Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, one American, one from Trinidad, who, a black man who was a dentist: a navigator, South Africans, one Rhodesian. One Rhodesian, can’t think of any others.
JH: I think you’ve covered – quite a few countries!
JT: That’s an amazing mix and they got on very, very well, the silly jokes: the Rhodesian was Vernon Fitt, Flying Officer Fitt so they all asked him if his sister was Miss Fitt [laughter]. The Canadians called us the bike troops, we called them the redskins, we all called the New Zealanders the mud islanders, the and the showers was called the Commonwealth Club and, because no Englishmen went there, [laugh] we’re a bit derogatory and of course we called the Englishmen pongos in those days. But everybody did it in good spirits.
JH: Good spirit.
JT: And it was all a big laugh. And we had some extraordinary characters, there was Warrant Officer Dixon was a Canadian bomb aimer, a man of great wit and charm, and when he went up for his commission the Group Captain said to him, ‘I see you’ve done four years of university but you’ve only passed two years of arts. And I see on the record that your father is a doctor and your four brothers and a sister are doctors. How do you explain your situation?’ He said, ‘Sir, I am the white sheep of the family!’ It didn’t stop him getting his commission. [Laughter] And another episode, this was our first day, the first morning we woke up on the squadron and it gives you an idea of the humour and wit that was all the time there. The tannoy would go, the tannoy would go and play the bugle. Chief Engineering Officer, he was a world war one man, and one of his duties was, he was the officer in charge against black marketeering within the RAF, and associated, tradesmen associated with this. So, whenever he found any evidence of it, the black market items were confiscated. In some cases these were chicken, which we dined on in the officers mess. [laughter]
JH: Yeah, of course!
JT: So, he was a very useful man, this Wing Commander Hill.
JH: I’m sure he was.
JT: And most likeable with it. The Group Captain was a real character too, and I used to look at this old, old elderly man who would listen to our, come and sit down and listen to our debriefings, and as a twenty year old, of course I thought this, what I figured to be a fifty six year old man or thereabouts, you know, this is an old fuddy duddy, no doubt he was world war one. But I found out later that this Group Captain used to get in his car with a flying suit on, and a parachute, and drive out to the runway where the aircraft were taxying out towards take off point, and Ron Horton got signalled to a stop, and the Group Captain climbed aboard, and sat behind, beside him the whole trip, never said a word, thanked him when they got back and got out, and got in his car.
JH: Thanks for the lift!
JT: Shortly after the aircraft turned off the runway and went back so that he was in the debriefing room when the crews came in.
JH: How about that.
JT: What a character!
JH: Yes. And very popular by the sound of it. Yeah.
JT: Oh, and the, we were a base so we had a Air Commodore. Our Air Commodore was Air Commodore Gus Walker, later Air Vice Marshal Sir [emphasis] Gus Walker. He, he was an Air Commodore at twenty seven years of age, the reason being he was a Group Captain at twenty four and CO of a Lancaster squadron airfield, and the spare aircraft one night, the, the incendiaries dropped out of the aircraft and were burning on the ground, under the cookie. And he jumped in his car and raced towards it, got out and was running, his idea is he’s going to run and start up the engine and taxi it clear, but when he was a certain distance from the aircraft the cookie went off and it blew his arm off, at the elbow. Lucky it didn’t kill him.
JH: Could have been worse, yeah.
JT: Yes. But when he, when they came to, he was such a cool customer, when the ambulance arrived he said, ‘Find that arm, it’s got a perfectly good glove on it.’ That’s the sort of man he was. He was a most interesting character, and again, one of nature’s gentleman.
JH: Yes. So that, you were telling me before about a very near miss. Which raid was that on? Was that your first tour or the second tour?
JT: No, that was, I was just one tour. This was Hannover,
JH: Yes.
JT: If you turn up Hannover.
JH: Let me have a look here.
JT: It’s near the end.
JH: Okay, just looking through the list here. Here’s Hannover, in January, a night raid, near collision. 5th of January ‘45.
JT: 5th of January, ’45. Yes. It was a clear night, no moon, starlit. We were travelling on our way in to Hannover, and I think it was about ten minutes or so before the target, suddenly out of the corner of my right eye I caught sight of a fighter, of a, and it was an FW190 went straight across in front of us, travelling slightly [emphasis] down, and in that instant you, you’re not sure whether you saw it or not, but you know you did, but it’s happened so fast, it’s, everything is in recollection. And I though, goodness me, that was an FW190, painted black, shiny black, his canopy was open and I could see the pilot, I could see his oxygen mask, I could see his shiny black leather jacket, I could see the crease of the shoulder. And then I thought, how close was that, how far, that was a cricket pitch, no more. So when I, later on, on the ground I started putting it all together and figured it out there was point two of a second, and worked out the closing speed was roughly three hundred and eighty mile an hour. He didn’t see us, and when I, at debriefing when I went to the, said to the, told the story to the debriefing officer and said he was flying with his canopy open, ‘That’s impossible,’ he said, ‘no one could fly it’s too cold because it was minus forty five degrees.’ However, the following day in the mess, he came up to me at lunchtime and said, ‘you were right about that FW190. I’ve been in touch with headquarters in London and that you cannot fly a 190 at night with the canopy closed because the glare from the exhaust dazzles you, dazzles on the windscreen, and you can’t see.’ I said so they fly freezing. However, I was glad he was point two of a second ahead because if we’d have collided, he’d have killed the, immediately killed the flight engineer and myself no doubt about it, and no doubt about himself, and the others would have had to find their way out.
JH: I’m assuming most of the crew blissfully unaware!
JT: Totally unaware, I was the only one who saw him.
JH: Yes, so did you go down the pub that night and explain it with the crew?
JT: I explained it to them, I didn’t explain until the following day and the, and they were quite shocked by it.
JH: Incredible. And I believe you’ve, you’ve done a painting of it.
JT: I’ve done a painting of that.
JH: From memory obviously.
JT: Yes. And one, John, John, oh he was a geologist. John, a member of 466 Squadron, you’d know him. John Mac, I can’t think of his surname.
JH: Oh well, I’m sure we’ll find out later. Yeah.
JT: Yes. Anyway, what was I going to mention about him?
JH: About the painting.
JT: Oh yes, he got me to do, to get a print, a photo print of it, which he kept for some time and then sent on to the War Memorial in Canberra.
JH: Oh fantastic!
JT: Yeah, and I’ve shown John here a copy of it and shown the original that’s hanging in the hallway.
JH: Well, I’d like to see that after the interview.
JT: I’m going to rework it so it can be viewed without having to put a torch on it.
JH: Yes. That’s excellent. Well, we’re scanning through, we’re sort of coming, coming to the end of some of the raids here, are there any, any particular ones in the second, the later part of the tour you’d like to bring to mind?
JT: There was the, the one that, the last daylight on Gelsenkirchen.
JH: Yes.
JT: That’s a night.
JH: Do you realise that was the same day, seventy three years ago. 22nd of January.
JT: Oh right, right.
JH: How about that.
JT: Yeah. Now -
JH: Seventy three years.
JT: Seventy three years ago. Turn over to the next page, the Gelsenkirchen was one of our last. Is it there? Is it not.
JH: Well it’s here, it’s written down there, but just, there’s no details.
JT: No, that’s a night raid.
JH: Night raid.
JT: No, we went to Gelsenkirchen, that was earlier.
JH: Okay, let’s look back. Just looking back here. Here we are. The 11th of September, 1944. Gelsenkirchen, daylight raid on the oil refinery. Yes.
JT: The, this was the one, that we were approaching the target, this is a target which twelve hundred yards long, by I think it was eight hundred yards wide. Very small target, very [emphasis] heavily defended: eighty eight guns, eighty eight millimetre, ack ack everywhere. As we are approaching the target, we, we came up, and turned on to the target, so as we’re coming up I’m looking across at the target at about forty five degrees, and the flak is enormous, it’s just like patches everywhere in the sky. And at this stage Ross Pearson looks out the window and sees it and says to the navigator sitting alongside in front of him, ‘look at that, some poor bugger’s have got to face that,’ and the navigator said to him ‘we turn on to that target in three minutes time.’ Scared the daylights out of Ross. I turned on to the target and looked at it, and I thought we’ll never get through this, this is it, where we finish. However, when we got into the target area it, I realised this was a box barrage which was not aimed at any particular aircraft, and what we were seeing was all the puffs that had been fired at the earlier aircraft and when we got through it, when we got into the zone, it wasn’t that intense, but we heaved a sigh of relief when we got out of it.
JH: Was, were there any night fighters?
JT: No, that was a daylight.
JH: Oh, this was a daylight. Yeah, yeah.
JT: And of course we had fighter escort.
JH: Yeah. Which was the raid you mentioned you had heavy fighter support? Like four hundred.
JT: That was that Falaise Gap.
JH: That was the Falaise Gap. Four hundred fighters.
JT: Yeah, two hundred, two hundred Mustangs and two hundred Spitfires.
JH: Yes.
JT: But one other one, I’ve forgotten which one it was, it could well have been either that -
JH: Have a look through.
JT: I’ll tell you which one it was. It was a daylight. Ah yes, it was probably this one: Cleve.
JH Cleve, this is 7th October 1944, daylight raid.
JT: And our escort that day was two hundred plus Mustangs, basically American. So we’re on our way into the target in this great bomber stream, and suddenly the rear gunner said, ‘fighter four o’clock low’. So I look back and I can see this fighter coming round, and he said, the rear gunner says, ‘it looks like a FW109,’ then he said, as it got a bit closer he said, ‘oh no it’s a Mustang,’ and the mid upper gunner joined in and said ‘yes it’s a Mustang.’ So, but he kept coming, and I said if he gets too close, just fire a warning burst, I said to the mid upper gunner, ‘fire a warning burst, not at him, but just fire a warning burst.’ However, when he got to a certain distance he did a, he came right up like that, and did a barrel roll and went off. [Laughter] So he was a, some light-hearted, cheeky American fighter pilot who was having his, probably his first close look at a Halifax.
JH: That is interesting. So normally, you know, when you have a huge fighter escort like that for the raid on Falaise. How would they deploy? Were they to one side?
JT: You didn’t se. No. You didn’t see much of them because most of them were up high.
JH: They’re up high. Yes.
JT: Or way out to the left, way out to the right, or ahead or behind. He was the closest we ever saw. We saw, we did see them up high, quite a number, but, you know, they were probably six or seven thousand feet at least above us.
JH: Yes.
JT: Very interesting thing comes out of that, I picked up two: the FW190 which is a much-feared fighter, met its match in a very unusual way. The Thunderbolts, and this is interesting, the RAF tend to sneer a bit at the Thunderbolt because it was so heavy, but do you know they turned out fourteen thousand Thunderbolts, Republic, and the Americans were very happy with them, for good reason. On those massive Fortress and Liberator raids over Germany, the absolute top cover were Thunderbolts because if a Mustangs or others down lower got jumped by a 190 it would be a Thunderbolt come to the rescue because it was the only aircraft that could overtake a 190 in a dive, and a 190 knew once a Thunderbolt it got on his tail in a dive it was curtains.
JH: Yes, and the higher ceiling for the Thunderbolt. So they were sitting up there.
JT: Yes. It was up high, they flew top cover all the time.
JH: That’s an interesting comment, yeah. Okay, well, any more raids to talk about? Did you engage any fighters on any of these?
JT: Ah! We, we had a, we had a couple of oh yes, yes, there was, um, two, two things: there was, one of the last raids, one of our last raids was, there were that many fighters around I never stopped weaving. I was, you could see the, see aircraft being shot down, there were so many aircraft being shot down, you weren’t seeing the actual fighters, but you were seeing aircraft being hit, and you knew that they were - and they hung with us for about oh probably twenty, twenty five minutes on the return flight from the target, before we sort of flew out of it, and there was an occasion or there was an occasion when we were, oh yes, a couple of occasions, one occasion was where there was a burst of flak near us on the right, so I moved a bit further away to the left, and then there was another burst of flak much closer [emphasis] up on the right, and as I start to move away from it – tracer. 20mm tracer came through it, and unfortunately I got into a dive to the port and went over the top of us, but obviously a ME109 or FW190 had come through that flak and fired at us, and it was the flak that attracted my attention, tracer got out of the way
JH: If you hadn’t seen the tracer you wouldn’t have seen him.
JT: We’d have possibly been hit. The other one was, that on one raid, a night raid, I was asked to take Major, Major Bathgate, an artillery expert, on the flight, ‘cause he wanted, they needed to study the flak. So we were approaching the target and the flak burst over the right, he said, ‘can you go a bit closer?’ So very reluctantly I steered over towards the flak and then a burst ahead of that, another burst ahead of it. He said, ‘go closer if you can.’ So we went up two lots of flak that we went uncomfortably [emphasis] close to. I would never have done it without him on board, but it satisfied him. ‘Oh yes, its 88 mil, right we don’t need to look at any more.’ And I heaved a sigh of relief on that occasion. The other occasion that I haven’t mentioned, I don’t know which, I can’t remember.
JH: Yes. Is it Mulheim?
JT: No, that was daylight.
JH: That’s a daylight one. Yeah.
JT: No, that was a night raid with him. It was one of the late ones. It was -
JH: Have you had - we’re just looking through, um, Dusseldorf was in November.
JT: It could have been that.
JH: Or you had Wilhelmshaven.
JT: No, it could have been Dusseldorf.
JH: Yeah.
JT: Dusseldorf yeah, it was either that, either one of those.
JH: Night fighter firing and missing.
JT: Ah, that was, that, no it was Cologne was the one with Major Bathgate.
JH: Okay. Righto. You mentioned before the Mulheim raid, the daylight raid.
JT: That was the one where the air speed indicator failed on take off.
JH: Hmm. And you continued with the operation, with the raid, you were committed with the full bomb load.
JT: Yeah, we took off, it flew, the aircraft flew off fortunately, it wasn’t the engines, it was the airspeed indicator, but we, did a slow, climb slowly as a result of that, to avoid stalling, we got to operational height and of course we had no air speed indicator, no bomb sight and no Gee: navigational aid. However, because it was daylight and the bomber stream was visible, we joined it and went to the target. But when we got to the target, in order to drop our bombs I formated on another aircraft, I think he was new, and jumpy and I though he’ll be a bit early with his bombs gone, so I said to the bomb aimer, ‘I’ll count to four and then you release,’ which we did, and we got an aiming point, so he was well short with his bombs. The other occasion I haven’t mentioned, and I think this might have been, yes I think it might have been on that, on the Magdeburg raid. Pretty certain it was.
JH: Magdeburg, here we are, in January, a night raid. Yeah.
JT: It’s the only occasion which I was ever coned by searchlights. I got away from single searchlights quite easily. but this time the blue, the blue radar searchlight picked me up and it was absolutely dazzling, [emphasis] so I went into, did a couple of corkscrews, and realised how helpless that was, no help at all, hopeless. So I went to the top of the corkscrew and then suddenly went into a, almost vertical wingtip position, and put the nose right down and went into a screaming dive to port, and we lost something like six thousand feet, and got up to about well over three hundred mile an hour on the airspeed indicator, but we shed all searchlights. And thus I realised that’s the only way to get out of it, coning, was to put it into the steepest possible dive.
JH: Pretty extreme manoeuvre.
JT: Conversation with other pilots, post, after I’d been screwing, they had had the same experience and had got out of it the same way.
JH: Well Jack, that Magdeburg, that was your last but one raid, and then you, I think you did one more operation, correct? Correct, yeah. Would you like to talk about how it all wound up, that was the end of the operations. So what, what happened after your last operation?
JT: Ah, the, oh yes, this Wing Commander Barnard from Coastal Command, and the rigid disciplinarian; one of the customs when you’re on your last raid, is you don’t have to come back in your order, you can come back as fast as you like and be there as early as, home as possible. So what happened three of us were finishing on the one night. What happened was, we all called up bang bang bang I was the third one to call up.
JH: Do you call pancake? Is that the?
JT: No, the permission to land.
JH: Permission to land, yeah.
JT: And he is in the debriefing room, but they hear, can hear the, what is going on in the Tower, re broadcast. As soon as he heard me call up, ‘That man is not flying according to regulation, put him on a charge when he lands.’ The debriefing officers had considerable trouble persuading him it was a relished custom that on your last trip you come back hell for leather. So it gives an insight into the character of the man.
JH: So, you weren’t court martialled!
JT: No. So anyway you land. We were, it was quite interesting.
JH: By the way, did you know that was your last operation by the way?
JT: Oh yes. Yes, we were operating on a point system. Three points for a non-German target, four points for a German target and that took us to I think a hundred and nineteen points. And anyway, when you land -
JH: I think they call them fly-bys now – small joke, sorry!
JT: Good joke, yes, good fly-bys. When you got to the debriefing room, immediately inside was somebody with a keg of rum and coffee, and the idea was that you had a coffee royal. And the man dishing it out was always, on 102 Squadron, was Padre Paddy, gee, I’ve forgotten his name. Anyway, this was a Roman Catholic priest, a Queenslander, who’d been in Rome when Italy came into the war, and he was interned ‘cause he was living outside the Vatican, he was interned. However, later, under Red Cross, he was repatriated to England and he was sent to see a Bishop in London and he thought, ‘oh this is my, I’ll get my trip back to Australia.’ And he arrives at this Bishop, English Bishop and the English Bishop says to him, ‘right, well now, you’re going to the RAF Pocklington as the Roman Catholic Padre.’ ‘ I thought I was going back to Australia!’ ‘Well you can think again, you’re going to Pocklington.’ [Laugh] So he was, he was a character, a very fit athletic bloke, captained our football team and he was the disher out of the coffee and the rum, very heavy on the rum.
JH: That’s good to hear. I’m sure you appreciated that!
JT: Great chap. We appreciated him no end.
JH: So, that was your last operation.
JT: So having finished, you get, there’s this a great feeling of relief. You’re left four days on the, you stay there for another four days and soak it all up.
JH: Yup
JT: Take your ground staff out and to the pub and buy them beers as a thank you.
JH: Yes.
JT: And give them, as Australians we gave them tinned fruit, and tinned cake and stuff like that, on that night as well.
JH: Yes. And you had to hand over your Halifax to another crew.
JT: Crew. Which went on to do, V Victor, which I’d taken over as a new aircraft, because somebody lost the original V Victor, another crew, and then that V Victor went on and was, at the end of the war, had done fifty trips and was pensioned off.
JH: Pensioned off, yes.
JT: So we were very happy. We had a wonderful [emphasis] ground staff. The, our flight sergeant in charge of them was a terrific bloke. He was a man, I think, you know, he was no chicken, he was thirty four or thirty five. A very experienced man.
JH: Yes. Yes.
JH: Did they ever, tell me, did they ever come up on a trip?
JT: Ah yes, not on a trip, but they used to go on test flights.
JH: Test flights. Yes.
JT: Oh yes. We were always eager to have a test flight. We were always eager to invite them on a test flight.
JH: Yes. Good insurance policy.
JT: We also took them on a, on a, when we did a test bombing, you know, you’d practice bombing. We did a couple of practice bombings on the squadron, so we took along as many as we could.
JH: Yes.
JT: I enjoyed those trips.
JH: Yes.
JT: That was one of them. The one, the one trip that ended on a sour note.
JH: Really.
JT: One bombing raid. We went on this bombing raid, ‘cause at night you’re on oxygen all the time. Anyway, we’re on oxygen [sniff] – ‘oh god that tastes awful!’ Hmm, and next thing, you’re burping and then after a while you’re passing wind! And we got back, and I said to the chappie who’s looked after the oxygen, he was a, what was he? Was the electrical fitter was he? Or, anyway, he was one of the fitters, ‘What’s wrong with that oxygen?’ So he tested it; oh,’ he said, ‘its gone sour.’ ‘Oh get that out of there!’
JH: Gone sour.
JT: Yeah, the oxygen gone sour.
JH: Really. Never heard of that.
JT: And sour oxygen is no good for the intestines, plays up with them no end. [Laughter] So that’s, as I say, that’s the one trip that ended on a sour note.
JH: Yes. Literally. So, I expect you had some leave coming.
JT: Yes. Went on, the, you go in and see the adjutant, who was another charming gentleman, a flight lieutenant Englishman who’d been in world war, decorated from world war one, Mac somebody, lovely bloke, here’s your leave pass, seven days leave, and we’ll post your log book on to you ‘cause it’s getting a green endorsement.
JH: Right.
JT: And I’ll notify when you come back. No, wait a minute, ah yes, when you come back, we notify you your posting. That’s right.
JH: Yes.
JT: So and we’ll post your log book on to you wherever you’re posted to. So I get back, I go and have the seven days leave. Get back and I’m posted back to pock, Moreton on the Marsh, which I didn’t particularly like as a station, because Group Captain Elliot, stuttering Sam, was a very unpleasant CO, disliked by everybody, ground staff, aircrew. He was a, rather unpleasant character. He, there was a seniors officers mess, was a separate building. He commandeered it, and took it over, and confiscated all the cream blankets that the officers had and that became the home of he and his paramour, he had a live in girlfriend.
JH: Oh I see.
JT: And he was a problem. For example there’s a, example quoted of an aircraftsman who’d been AWOL goes up on a charge in front of him, and he, ‘I-I-I s-sentence you to-to-to se-se-se-se,’ and the aircraftsman made the mistake: he said, ‘seven days, sir’. ‘Y-y-y-yes n-n-now its f-f-four-fourteen.’ That’s the sort of bloke he was. And I’m in my flight office in one day. There were two Moroccan pilots, they’d, they were long, warrant officers, they’d been out in the middle east and been right through that campaign, they were instructors, and their surname was Al-Azraki. So I pick up, answer the phone in the flight office: it’s Stuttering Sam. ‘W-w-will you send down w-w-warrant officers warrant officer al-alza-alza-alza, he went on, alza-alza-alza, and I was so tempted to say Raki, no I’m gone, so I waited and waited finally he got Varaki out.
JH: Yeah.
JT: Sent them down They were going for their commission interview.
JH: Yes.
JT: The, he had, the sergeant in charge of the mess was a fat creep and he was, he was his spy. He used to report back to him everything that went on in the mess.
JH: I’m sure you soon figured that out, you chaps.
JT: So they, this bloke rode a motorbike, so they used to take his motorbike and hide it! Then he, then stuttering Sam decided the mess needed repainting, which it didn’t, so he got it done. So what they did, I don’t know who did it, but they got a boot, tied it on to a long pole, dipped it in mud and put footprints right across the ceiling. [Laughter]
JH: That’s in the officers mess? Yes. Wonder if it’s still there? We could go on for hours, you know. But let’s, let’s talk about how, repatriation do you call it, isn’t it, coming back here, finishing up there, demobilisation, repatriation.
JT: Right, we, we stayed at Moreton in the Marsh till the 22nd June 45, went to Brighton holding there, transit depot and I came home on the, left, left Brighton on the 15th of September.
JH: Yes.
JT: On the, came home on the ship called the Stratheden, which had just been refurbished for passenger use again - the dining room. So the dining room was serving passenger food.
JH: I wonder if Don Browning came back on that?
JT: I don’t know. I don’t remember him being on it. Anyway the cooks were Ghanese, and they served, on their menu every day was a curry, amongst other things.
JH: Yes.
JT: I had a different curry every day,
JH: Yes.
JT: I went and had curry every day, went right through their whole list.
JH: Yes. Menu.
JT.: Whole menu of curries, before I had something else.
JH: And you still like curry?
JT: I Love curry!
JH: I bet you do!.
JT: Their curries were fantastic. The whole, the meals were absolutely terrific. Came back here, land in Sydney, Bradfield depot, Bradfield as a transit depot.
JH: Yes.
JT: Was finally discharged on the, I think it was the 9th of December 1945. And in 1946 I took the opportunity of completing my schooling. On the CRDS, did twelve months and did the Leaving Certificate, Then went to Sydney Technical College and became a Quantity Surveyor, five year course there.
JH: Oh right. Yes.
JT: They don’t call them quantity surveyors any more, they call them, they became a degree course at University of Technology at the University of New South Wales and they’re called building surveyors.
JH: Yes, yes. And so what about family? You met your wife in Sydney.
JT: Yes. The, unfortunately, I had one daughter, only had one child the first marriage, my wife, first wife died.
JH: I see. Yes.
JT: And I married Elizabeth who had three children, so we put the two families together and we were all one family, that’s how I got a son. My stepson Bruce is my son Bruce.
JH: Geologist
JT: No, no, that’s my, that was my son-in-law.
JH: Son-in-law.
JT: My daughter Kit, my own daughter Kit married Michael Bonneybrook. He was the geologist. I wish I could remember the name of that machine they were using that he few with all the time. He went all over the world, he was in the, he went to America, Canada, Peru, Brazil, China, India, various countries in Africa, all over the place, all over the world.
JH: Geology, geologist is being a paid traveller.
JT: Unfortunately, his father - incidentally who was a quantity surveyor, and actually taught quantity surveying in Queensland at the university - his father suffered from cardiomyopathy and died at about, probably seventy years of age, but Mike got it at fifty eight and died.
JH: Oh, that’s sad.
JT: Very unfortunate because he was a wonderful bloke.
JH: Yes. It sounds like you had a successful career, and now you’re up here on the coast.
JT: I was, as a quantity surveyor, I retired, they finally found something was wrong with my spine.
JH: From that compression?
JT: I retired, not, they hadn’t found the full compression. I initially I went to the repat back in 1947 I think it was, or ‘48. But I struck an unfortunate doctor there and he was not interested in pensions or treating people, he was interested only in knocking people back; that was his modus operandi. But in 1957 I found a doctor who had the sense to send me for x-rays. But he – only upper back x-rays - and they discovered I had this problem, spinal compression and so in 1957 I retired - ill health. But the doctor who discovered this, he said, ‘You’re not to sit around,’ he said. ‘Go and pick apples,’ he said, ‘what I’m saying is, do something that’s physical, you’re not sitting down, but you’re doing something, you’re moving a lot,’ he said, ‘that’ll help your condition.’
JH: Yes.
JT: So that’s how we came to, we went to Bonville and we bought this property which was running horses at the time, the previous owner, next door, one side of us was a macadamia orchard and the other side was avocados. We looked at them both and we decided avocados was the way to go. But we put avocados in on the like a slope, a hill on the back, put them in on the slope, but on the other land, we got interested in peaches and nectarines, out those in, but towards the end of our time there I took all those out, because I’d reasoned out that if you reshape the land and the hills and valleys, you could grow avocados on the flat, on the hills, which I did, put in avocados there.
JH: Yes, okay
JT: And that was successful. But at 64 I’d had enough, and by that time I’d been to another doctor who finally said we’ll have a full [emphasis] spinal x-ray and he said you’ve had total spinal x-ray and that’s when he recommended me for the full TPI. And amongst those things they send you to a to a psychiatrist. And the psychiatrist says to me, he’s a character, he said ‘Do you know why you’re here?’ I said, ‘I suppose you’re going to decide whether I’m sane or not!’ He said, ‘oh no, that’s not the reason you’re here,’ so he said, ‘tell me how your accident happened.’ I told him. And he said. And I, ‘A strange thing,’ I said, ‘that man’s name will never leave me: Flying Officer Duncan Dobbie.’ He said ‘do you know why you remember that man’s name?’ he said, ‘Because he tried to kill you: your subconscious tells you he tried to kill you that day. It was such a foolish action, that could have resulted in death. So your subconscious says: he was trying to kill that’s why you’ll never forget his name.’ Interesting wasn’t it.
JH: Isn’t that interesting.
JT: He was quite a funny man, that, it was a very funny interview.
JH: You probably made his day, Jack.
JT: Ah, he said, something or other, but he said, you’re lucky he said, ‘cause they, if they break a leg they shoot horses! [chortle] Character.
JH: One question I’ve got is since you’ve retired and so on, how, have you kept in touch or did you, keep in touch with your crew through the years?
JT: Yes, we kept in, Ross kept in touch with the navigator, the bomb aimer, Jack White, the Australian who went early, ill health, he disappeared because, in Sydney, he was, he was a bit of a wild man in a way, we lost track of him completely.
JH. Yes. Yeah.
JT: The, Derek Turner became a solicitor, he died at 68, in England, he was from Newcastle on Tyne.
JH: That’s early. Yes.
JT: He, Ross kept in touch with him and through Ross I kept, you know, left messages, but he died at 68, so that’s a long time ago.
JH: Yeah. 1990. Yeah.
JT: He was a wild one, English boy.
JH: RAF. John Hughes. Yes.
JT: We lost touch with him from the day we, the crew broke up. Nat, now Nat was thirty six years old when he joined us as a crewman. So, he was dead a long time ago.
JH: Yes. What was his background? That’s a German sounding name.
JT: He was Jewish.
JH: Ah!
JT: He was a brave man. He was a Jew, flying over Germany, if we’d got shot down, and he had a lot of trouble, he was an orthodox Jew, because, with his food.
JH: Yes. Because I know some, from what I’ve read, changed their names, on their log book. Or in their name and number.
JT: Yeah, well he, I tried to get special diet for him, and he said, ‘oh no don’t bother, don’t bother, I’ll manage,’ you know. But he’d been a police, a physical training instructor in the London police.
JH: This is Sergeant Nat Goldberg, we’re talking about. A mid upper gunner, RAF.
JT: Yeah. Now Flying Officer Davis was the Welshman, and he only flew five trips with us, so we lost him pretty early.
JH: Yes. You mentioned that.
JT: John Williamson became, he was a Melbourne boy, became a bricklayer, we kept in touch with him. Then he went into a nursing home and suddenly he wasn’t answering our phone calls or cards, Christmas cards, so he’d died.
JH: So how many are with us, at the moment, of the crew?
JT: I’m the sole survivor now.
JH: Really.
JT: Ross was the second last.
JH: Yes, I knew Ross. Yes, yes. Another thing I often ask, and we’re encouraged to ask, is you know, reflecting back, about the, your thoughts about the campaign: how effective it was, you know, the controversies, lack of campaign medal. I’d just like to get your thoughts on that, if, if you would like to?
JT: Yes. I’ve got a few thoughts on this.
JH: Some people haven’t talked about it.
JT: The, there’s a few little points there. One is the, [cough] I’ve mentioned already to you, about the engineer who designed the bomb platform of the Halifax, should have been sacked and someone else redesign it, and it should have been lengthened and that, the shape of the fuselage or the seat. Now, early, fairly early on, well 1943, they put that smooth rounded nose on the Halifax. I often wondered why they didn’t cut out the gun turret and do the same to the Lanc, ‘cause it would have saved them all that weight of the turret, the guns, and ammunition and given the bomb aimer a better nose to the front of the aircraft and it would have possibly added slightly to its speed. Interesting, you know, interesting little one.
JH: They fell short didn’t they, to make things safer and more efficient and better aircraft, from what you say.
JT: Now, the other one that I really [emphasis] object to, when you look at it, in the American Air Force, the Liberator and the Fortress, they only had nine cylinder engines, which turned out twelve hundred horse power each. They were turbo-charged. They, the, they performed on that horse power way [emphasis] above by comparison with our engines, because of the turbo-charging. Now there was a mark four Halifax which was going to be with turbo charged engines, but it was abandoned. Now if the Halifax had turbo-charging as well as its later on fuel injection, the performance of those engines in the aircraft would have been considerably enhanced. Why? Question why. Now these things happen, or don’t happen. I have the suspicion there were some real fuddy-duddys in Handley Page and they should have got rid of them. And I’ll be a real heretic here: I’d have brought someone in, a couple of aircraft designers from Douglas, because of the Douglas Boston, the shape from very early in the war. They could have helped out no end. But, to get them to work as a team probably was, would have been a problem. The other one, this is now criticism Bomber Command planning, and this goes right back to, up to Bomber Harris territory here. You’re going into a target, there’s heavy flak around the target. Why didn’t they bomb the flak? [emphasis] Why weren’t certain aircraft sent in to bomb the flak, also bomb the searchlights. And I feel we didn’t bomb German airfields enough. These sort of things.
JH: Yes. Well, that’s a very interesting question, and I have thought about that, about the flak, why wasn’t that a target in itself? Was it because that if they bomb the flak, then the fighters know you know what the target is right away?
JT: But you’re already at the target, you know, they already know where, they’ve already worked that out because they’ve got the fighters there and they are anyway, once you’re in the flak range.
JH: TYes. hat is an interesting question you raise.
JT: There’s another point there, as I found out, one of the on a course with at Point Cook, Malandra, Point Cook, Jeff Rees, Jeff got to England and he had exceptional sight, he and a fellow called Ross Roberts, both had exceptional eyesight. They had these violet blue eyes, and they both had, the, twenty four was the number, maximum number on the eyesight, night vision test, these blokes rattled off the twenty four first go. What happened to them, while we were at Brighton, they were sent up to a room, and an Australian Squadron leader interviewed them, decorated bloke, said how would you like to fly Mosquitos, night fighters, and they didn’t go to where we went, they went straight through on Airspeed Oxfords, into Blenheims, into something else and into the Mosquito night fighters. He’s told me subsequently that they used to fly in, used to go out and strafe the German airfields as the fighters were starting to take off, and then after they strafed the airfields they would go up and join in the bomber stream, looking for German night fighters. So they did that much, but I think they could have done more in the strafing of night fighter airfields. And certainly, the bombing of the, with the searchlights and the flak, rocket firing Mosquitos would have been the answer. More accurate.
JH: Yeah. You raise a good question there, maybe that’s a line of research to find out just why that didn’t happen. What about the, your reflections on the impact of bomber command in the war, you know, the civilian casualties, this kind of thing?
JT: Well, the, I think it became apparent with the bombing of London, that it was total war. Civilians were not going to be exempt. So, if English, if United Kingdom civilians weren’t exempt, Germans weren’t exempt. It’s as simple as that. The fact that we were killing Germans, they were going to oppress us anyway, I had no second thoughts on that, and definitely when it comes to Dresden, I got no second thoughts on that because I have what I consider to be some inside information there, and if the facts, if they are facts, certain things explain it. Now, a chappie I know was deputy, his aircraft was deputy master bomber on Dresden. They were sent to Dresden because it was a major rail centre [cough] and Joe Stalin had asked Churchill to bomb Dresden, the railway yards, because it was the place where tanks were being, going through to the eastern front. Now not far from Dresden was a prisoner of war camp. There were two Australians in the prisoner of war camp there. They were at a Bomber Command reunion, and they said, for three weeks prior to the bombing, tanks were going through on flattops, endless stream to the eastern front. Now, okay they bombed Dresden, so that part’s okay. Now what caused the firestorm, and if this information is correct, it’s self explanatory, we used to use an incendiary bombing cannister, which was about that long, like that, and weighed about a pound and a quarter, and I think there was something like a hundred and sixty pounds weight in the cannister. On Dresden I was told, I don’t know whether it’s right or not, for the first time they were using a new incendiary, a thirty five pound bomb, that went in the, there were two, there were, in the cannister, there were three, and three are six and three deep, I think it was. No: that’s right. Eighteen. Eighteen times thirty five, yeah, that’s it. Now what happened: these created a much more intense firestorm than the little ones, and instead of just burning what they aimed at it just went right through it.
JH: Yes.
JT: Now that’s an explanation. Now all these people running around: ‘They should never have bombed Dresden. It was a sacred city of pottery and antiques’. Blah, blah, blah. Those people don’t know what they, they were never there. They were never, you know, anyone who was never on a bombing raid at night, shouldn’t talk, about the bombing campaign, criticise it. Because, you’ve gotta experience it to know what it was about. I think, overall it was very effective and two instances verify it. What was his name? The German?
JH: Spiers?
JT: Spiers? Told Hitler, and Goebbels, having viewed the damage, at Cologne I think it was, or in the Ruhr, he told them straight: we can’t survive this, we can’t win the war, they’re gonna wipe us out. Now I take that of Spier before, over anyone speaking English! The second one was - which I think is a classic - we all know the V!, we all know the V2, how many people know the V3? Do you know the V3?
JH: No. No I don’t.
JT: Right. I’ll tell you the story of the V3. There’s a town called Limoges, France. PRU aircraft picked up enormous [emphasis] activity taking place. A concrete structure was being built. This huge [emphasis] enormous thing, like that, mushroom shape. And it was obviously going to be something big, enormous. And then they started: the base went in and then they started putting in these barrels, gun barrels, enormous, hundred foot long gun barrels. All set in concrete. At different, all at varying angles, very slightly different angles, very slightly different angle that way, varying slightly in elevation, lateral elevation, And at that stage, British and American intelligence had a big meeting about it, and a lot of them were: ‘lets bomb it now!’ Someone very wisely said, ‘no, let’s wait until they’ve finished the last pour, the last pour, still all wet, then we’ll hit it.’ So, in, I think it was probably November. This is V3. What it was, there were all these hundred foot long gun barrels, all pointing at London, all slightly different angles and lateral and elevation so would have wiped out the whole of London. Number one fires, number two fires, number three -
JH: Like a salvo.
JT: One after the other. By the time they get back to number one it’s cooled, they can fire again. So it’s endless barrage. Would have destroyed London. This is V3. So, came the night, or day. I don’t know whether it was day or night. But this was the, I think it’s the same squadron that bombed the Tirpitz, 617.
JH: Yes.
JT: Given the job of bombing Limoges, with twelve thousand pounders. So, in they go, you can imagine the manpower. All these, also they said, we won’t destroy the workers because they’re all forced labour, foreigners, you know, they’re not German. But you imagine the number of barrows, trucks, the amount of concrete mixing mixers, to pour all that concrete, because it’s feet deep. So it’s finished, the last pour, in goes the Lancs with the twelve thousand pounders and I don’t know, I can’t remember if it’s six or eight went into it, just blew it to blazes, distorted it: the Germans abandoned it, couldn’t do anything with it.
JH: Wow, what an impact that had!
JT: That’s V3.
JH: Yeah, yeah.
JT: All that labour, all that concrete, all those highly prized gun barrels that were built at Krupps. All wiped out. Whoever that man was that, let’s wait till the end, could have been Eisenhower.
JH: End of the argument.
JT: It could have been Eisenhower. ‘Cause he was the one who, post war, when they were sending those balloons over Europe, over Russia, at forty thousand feet, and they came to him and said we’ve got balloons that’ll go at eighty thousand feet. No, we won’t use them, because they’ll develop the counter. Let’s, let them use all their efforts on our forty thousand. And not until we are totally exhausted, do we use the eighties.
JH: That’s an amazing story.
JT: So I reckon it could have been him at Limoges: we wait until then. Because his two most famous stories that sum up Eisenhower. Churchill, ‘Ike, I wish you would not say “schedule” I wish you would say “shedule.”’ ‘I will, when you say, tell me what, “shule, shule” you went to!’ And, and the other one, the big reception in London, some English woman said to, ‘General Eisenhower did you ever meet General MacArthur?’ Of course MacArthur was being the flavour of the month. ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘I did dramatics under him for four years in the Philippines! I studied dramatics under him for four years in the Philippines!’ [much laughter]
JH: Well, Jack just to finish off, what about a comment on the campaign medal, the lack of campaign medal for Bomber Command?
JT: Oh, I think that was terrible and I can’t understand it, because you know, it, I think it’s because of Dresden. And unlike what he was in every other respect because he was as tough as old boots, Winnie lost his marbles on that one, he took fright at Dresden because in his victory speech he mentioned the boys of fighter command, he never mentioned bomber command.
JH: Correct. Yes.
JT: But I’ll finish with a top note with Winnie. This is a delight. He goes into a toilet somewhere in, one big club in London and he goes to the urinal, and this very posh English gentlemen comes in alongside and goes to the next urinal and Winnie turns round and just starts to walk straight out. The fellow turns round from the urinal and says,[clears throat] ‘At Eton they taught us always to wash our hands after going to the toilet.’ and Winnie’s at the door by this time, and looks back and says, ‘At Harrow, they taught us not to piss on our hands.’ Isn’t that a classic!
JH: [Laugh] That’s a classic. Well, what an incredible interview, Jack, I think on that note we’ll sign off. Oh, wait a minute.
JT: I’ve got two episodes.
JH: Oh, stop press! Hang on!
JT: Two comics. One of them: Jack White the bomb aimer was in the, as the three down the front. If they had to relieve themselves there was a flare chute in the step, you lifted a lid and urinated down the flare chute. Jack White does it and very foolishly gets too close to the metal, touched it [slap sound]. And of course at those temperatures, you freeze on. There’s an enormous scream. The bomb aimer didn’t bat an eyelid, he just picked up his, he had a coffee thermos flask, he just tipped it on him, the screams are even louder, but it released him!
JH: Oh my goodness!
JT: The other episode was, I mean this Jack, you know, he could be a pain in the neck at times see, the mid upper gunner had a quick release: he lifted his seat up and clicked it. Now if he wanted to get out in a hurry, he just hit this little lever and the seat just fell down. So if Jack White for some reason went down the back of the aircraft when we were training, walk past and [flick sound] he’d flip it and would drop poor old Ned out on the floor. He did it twice, Ned said, ‘that’s it, you do that again I’ll deal with you on the ground.’ So we, I think Munster, the first daylight on Munster, we were in the, the first time I heard flak, if you can hear flak you’re going to get hit: because it sounds like growling lions. The lions are growling and suddenly bang! We hear this, a piece of flak comes in through the starboard fin, the rudder, goes in, hits the floor, bounces up, hits the quick release on that seat, drops him on the floor. He screams out: ‘Jack you bastard!’ The bomb aimer in the nose says, ‘What did I do?’ It bounced up, hit the framework in the aircraft, hit the floor again, bounced up and in that photo I showed you, where is it? The spar, [paper shuffling] where is it? The one with the -
JH: Looking for the photo, I think you’ve got it there somewhere.
JT: Inside the aircraft. Or did you put it in the -
JH: No, I think you’ve got it there, in the pile. We’re looking for a photo. Oh, here it is, under here.
JT: Oh good.
JH: There you go. Photo is the cockpit of the Halifax.
JT: See that spar across there, it had hit the floor back here and flew up and hit the spar there, must have been very [emphasis] close to that, hit the spar there, flew back and landed on my helmet. It cut the leather, I put my hand up, in gloves, and I could feel the terrific heat through the glove, grabbed hold of it and threw it down on the floor. Put my hand up, again, felt the cut about that long in, about that long in the helmet and sort of felt inside it, and the leather shammy when I felt it, was intact. It was a piece about like that and about that thick, and it had part of the plywood floor where it had hit it embedded in it, and that’s the path.
JH: So it lost a bit of its sting by the time it hit your head.
JT: Yes. It had come to a stop by the time it hit me.
JH: Yeah yeah.
JT: But it went twang, bang, bang, BANG! I heard the bang when it hit that spar. And strangely enough it didn’t dent the spar. Which when I got on the ground later I looked up and I expected to see a dent in it. No dent. So that’s extraordinary.
JH: Yes. That’s amazing. Well, thanks very much Jack, I really enjoyed listening to this, and a really good interview.
JT: I’m now talked out.
JH: You’ll be on the records forever in Lincoln at the Bomber Command Centre now. Okay, thank you.
JT: Right, so if I am, Con, Jimmy Constaff, Jimmy, Jimmy Constaff, yeah.
JH: What’s this?
JT: I’m trying to think of a bloke’s name. I want to put it in there. So that if he’s ever, a very short Englishman, was a pilot in C flight with me, Jimmy, Constaff, if you ever, hear, listen to this Jim, my regards.
JH: Okay!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Henry Thomas
Creator
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John Horsburgh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AThomasJH180122
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:53:00 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
John Thomas was born in Australia and joined the RAF in 1943. After doing his initial training in Australia he travelled to the UK via America. Further training, including an accident and night vision tests, led to 102 Squadron and a full tour of operational sorties. He tells tales of avoiding anti-aircraft fire, fighter support, being coned by searchlights, V3, crew antics and rum rations. On return to his homeland he became a quantity surveyor then a farmer before a TPI award as a result of his earlier accident, in 1989. John also shares his views on wartime aircraft and policy.
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Yorkshire
France--Falaise
France--Limoges
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Magdeburg
New South Wales--Narrandera
New South Wales--Sydney
Victoria--Point Cook
Victoria
New South Wales
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-06
1944-08
1944-09-11
1944-10-07
1945-12-09
102 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crash
Fw 190
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Mosquito
P-47
P-51
pilot
RAF Acaster Malbis
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Pocklington
RAF Riccall
searchlight
Tiger Moth
training
V-2
V-3
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1184/11756/PWalkerT1801.2.jpg
3bec429e6a3c10cbcf95719caeca006b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1184/11756/AWalkerT180717.1.mp3
647343f166349c426f4abedf8de8703c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Walker, Tom
T Walker
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Tom Walker (b. 1925, 1590544 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 462 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Walker, T
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: This, so this is Gary Rushbrooke for the International Bomber Command Centre 17th of July 2018. I’m with Tom Walker and his son [buzz] And Tom, if you can just tell us a little bit about your early life. I know we’re in Rotherham. Was you born in Rotherham?
TW: No. I was born in Stainforth, near Doncaster.
GR: Near Doncaster.
TW: Yeah.
GR: So fairly local.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Brothers and sisters?
TW: I’ve got, one sister was in the ATS. The other one, she was a qualified nurse and she was a sister in Barnsley Hospital. She joined the Army and went over on D-Day 3.
GR: Right.
TW: And she went right to, to Germany to until they got to Germany. When they got to Germany they flew her back over here and flew her out to Burma.
GR: Right.
TW: And she ended up as a major.
Other: Matron of Bombay Hospital.
TW: Bombay Military Hospital.
GR: Oh right. Were your sisters older than you? Or —
TW: Oh yeah. I were the youngest of the lot. Yeah.
GR: You, you were the youngest.
TW: Two brothers and father worked down Hatfield main pit.
GR: Right. That’s what your dad did, did he? He worked in the pit.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Did you go to school around here? Locally to Doncaster?
TW: Me.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah. I was in the ATC.
GR: Yeah.
TW: When I were fourteen. And after a couple of months I started going to the technical college at night.
GR: Right.
TW: So it got me fit you know. I could do maths and everything perfect.
GR: Yeah. So you left school at fourteen did you?
TW: Pardon?
GR: Did you leave school at fourteen?
TW: Yeah. Yeah. And —
GR: And is that when you started going to technical college?
TW: Yeah. I was in the, I was in ATS.
GR: Yeah.
TW: No.
GR: ATC.
TW: Cadets.
GR: Air Training Cadets.
TW: Yeah. I got in them. And my mates were already in the Navy or the Army. So I said to my dad, ‘ I want to go in the Fleet Air Arm,’ because I’d got an uncle who was a manager in Portsmouth and I wanted to go in the Fleet Air Arm. And this guy said, ‘Oh yeah,’ because I was six foot then and boxing and he said, ‘Ideal. What we want.’ He said, ‘Now, where do you work?’ I said, ‘I’m a tool setter.’ He said, ‘You can’t go in.’ So, he said, ‘You can’t do anything about it. You can’t go in.’ So, I went back home to Stainforth and I never spoke to my father for a month. So he, eventually he said, ‘All right. Go on. Go.’ So that started it all.
GR: So you volunteered.
TW: Yeah.
GR: To go in to the RAF.
TW: Yeah.
GR: And did they, did you go to a recruiting office or —
TW: Yes. I went to [pause] that were in Sheffield and then when, when I went to another office for AT, for flying. And they said, ‘You’ll be three months before you can get in because of the places.’ And they give me a job in a [pause] making twenty five pounder shells.
GR: Oh right.
TW: And it was a catastrophe because women were chasing me. So —
GR: So there was you and about three or four hundred women in a factory.
TW: More than that. Anyway, I only stood it one week on nights. During the day they couldn’t touch me. But I went back to this office that they were making me, giving me a job and I went out on to building Sandtoft Aerodrome.
GR: Oh right. Yes. I know it.
TW: Yeah. And that was well paid for because I was getting paid a man’s wage and lodging allowance.
GR: That’s good. Yeah. Yeah.
TW: And then I’d been working all day. We got on the lorry to go back to Stainforth. I got off. I saw my mother down the, down the street. My papers had come.
GR: Oh yeah.
TW: And when I went she were crying.
GR: And this would be what? 1943?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Can you remember where you first went to, to start your training?
TW: Well, as I say I was in the AT.
GR: ATC.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: I was in there and the bloke who run it had been a fighter pilot in the First War and he was, he were brilliant.
GR: Yeah.
Other: You had to go to London then didn’t you?
TW: Yeah. I went to London. ACRC. Aircrew Receiving Centre at London.
GR: St John’s Wood.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: [Softley] Hall.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And it were a beautiful place.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And there were twenty in each room and this particular night we got in bed and there were two big, big rooms and then there were a corridor with sand, water and doings pump.
GR: Ah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: Stirrup pump. Stirrup pump.
GR: Stirrup pump.
TW: Aye. We, we’d just got in bed and these two blokes came in with water. Sprayed all our beds and us. So —
GR: That was your welcome.
TW: They were a big, big Geordie lad, farmer and me. I chased them and I hit this bloke. Knocked him out because all our beds were wet.
GR: Yeah.
TW: So, 9 o’clock in the morning I had to go and see the CO. And came out he was area bomber err —
Other: Boxing.
TW: Boxing.
GR: Right. And you were a boxer.
TW: And I, yeah. The bloke said this bloke he were a [pause] he said, ‘Oh, no. Go on. Clear off.
GR: Clear off.
TW: And it was next, that were next to London Zoo.
GR: London Zoo. Yes. Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Didn’t you used to get your meals in the zoo? Did you have to go across to the zoo?
TW: Pardon?
GR: Did you go across to the zoo?
TW: Oh yeah.
GR: Because that’s where you had your meals there. Didn’t you?
TW: That’s right. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. So —
TW: All there was all the lions there and everything making a noise.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. I think most chaps have said, you know.
TW: We could walk to the west, west end in London.
GR: Yes.
TW: From [Softley] Hall.
GR: Yes.
TW: That were brilliant.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Because it was like going from Stainforth to somewhere or something to —
GR: First time away in the big city.
TW: [unclear]
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah. And on the next street to where it was there were some old ladies with Rolls Royces all [unclear] Not, not NAAFI. This other —
Other: Women’s Institute, was it?
TW: Yeah. And we used to go in there and there were a table about like that big.
Other: Just hang on a sec.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
TW: And there was piles of all the shows in London.
GR: Yeah.
TW: All in piles all around.
GR: Very good.
TW: I’m going to get —
GR: Yeah.
[recording paused]
GR: So, after St Johns Wood where did you [pause] where did you end up after you had started your training?
TW: I went, got to Rotherham.
GR: Yeah.
TW: I was five months there. Then I went to Scotland.
Other: St Andrews.
TW: Yeah.
Other: Where the golf course is.
TW: The worst place I’ve ever been in my life. It was winter.
GR: Snow, wet and windy.
TW: Not a, not a, not no heating at all. And oh. Ah but at night you couldn’t even get in the cinemas or anywhere else because there were a Navy place there. And all the dancing was reels.
GR: Oh right. Yeah.
TW: I was glad to go away from there. Then I went down to London. To London again. And I did three months at Newquay. And then I started.
Other: Were it St Austell, were it? That one.
TW: Yeah.
Other: St Austell.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And then I went to start training at Riccall.
GR: At Riccall.
TW: Near Selby.
GR: Yeah. I’ve a friend who lives there at the moment. Did you know what you wanted to be? You know when you joined up.
TW: Yeah. Well —
GR: Did you want to be a pilot? Was you —
TW: I wanted to be a pilot.
GR: Right.
TW: And what happened was when I was on this ITW.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Initial Training Wing. They came to us and they said, ‘What do you want to be?’ ‘Pilot.’ So they said, ‘You’ll have to go a few weeks and go to America or Canada.’ And everybody had built up —
GR: Oh yeah. I’ll have some of that. Yeah.
TW: And then they came to, they came in to it one morning when we were on parade. They said, ‘There’s a surplus of pilots.’
GR: Yeah.
TW: Pilots, bomb aimer and navigator.’ So, I said what was there? And they said flight engineer. No. No. Glider pilots or doings [pause] or a gunner.
GR: Yeah. Air gunner.
TW: Flight engineer.
GR: Yeah. You went for flight engineer.
TW: I did about eight or nine months training from that and every, every week you had exam.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And if you didn’t pass it you go back again. And I were lucky. I got right through.
GR: Yeah. And that was at Riccall.
TW: Riccall.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
TW: No. No.
GR: Sorry.
TW: They were at, what was that one at —
GR: It don’t matter.
TW: Seaside. Anyway.
Other: What’s that dad? What’s that?
TW: Oh that place, at [pause] Not Newquay. The other place.
Other: St Austell.
GR: St Austell.
TW: No. Anyway, it don’t matter.
GR: Don’t matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
TW: And then I got passed out, you know.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And I went and then went straight up. Had nine days leave and then I went to Riccall and we had to go in this building and pick out a pilot. A squad. The rest of the crew.
GR: They crewed up. Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
GR: So, and you were telling me earlier that you ended up with an Australian crew.
TW: Yeah.
GR: So was that crew already formed? And then they got —
TW: Apart from a flight engineer. Yeah.
GR: So, they came. Did they come and get you or did you get them?
TW: Yeah. Yeah. They came to me.
GR: Good.
TW: And then we started training at Riccall. Bombing.
GR: Heavy Conversion Unit.
TW: No. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Heavy Conversion Unit.
TW: Yeah.
GR: HCU. Yeah.
TW: That was for them. It wasn’t me.
GR: Right.
TW: Because they had been on Wellingtons and things like that.
GR: Yes. Yeah.
TW: Anyway, we did all day training. And then night training. And then we went down to Foulsham.
GR: Foulsham. Yeah.
TW: Yeah. And one of, one of the things I told you before about the end of the war the last bombing raid we did was and they told us normally you used to go back to England about twelve thousand feet.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Don’t bother. You can go down low. So we went on this raid and then went to the Dutch Coast and we [pause] to the coast. About five minutes after the plane went right back like that. Bloody balloon on a ship.
GR: You were too low. So that was your last bombing raid of your war. What was your first one?
TW: Actually it was from Riccall because when you’d finished —
GR: Yeah.
TW: You went on one.
GR: Right.
TW: I think it was just in to Germany. Just in to German.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Unless it was German.
Other: Which was that one where where you had to go to that other airfield and Douglas Bader told you to get off the airfield?
TW: Oh well. We’d been on the southern side bombing.
GR: Yeah.
TW: You know, there was topside further north for Germany. Other one we’d been over France or somewhere. Come back and we went to Tangmere. That’s the thing. Landed Tangmere.
GR: Tangmere.
TW: Because there was thick fog.
GR: Yes.
TW: Right. So —
GR: Tangmere was a fighter base wasn’t it?
TW: That’s right. So, they took, they took us to a Naval barracks overnight and then go back and there were about seventy planes on this. German, American and the whole lot. Right.
GR: Yeah. All coming to Tangmere because of the fog.
TW: They had all gone and I was trying to get all the engines running. And what I did I got up inside the nacelle where the wheel, the big wheel went in. There were a pump inside it and I got up, got up into it and this bloke comes around and said, ‘What are you doing on my bloody airfield?’ And when I got out it were Bader. I’m on the route to taking off. I’ve roped all the lads in.
GR: Good stuff. Yeah.
TW: But I loved it, you know.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And, and I’ll tell you something that wasn’t about flying. The wireless operator was an older man and he’d been a gold digger and all sorts. A real character and he were my best mate. And we’d been in the sergeant’s mess having a drink and darts and I said to him, his mate came, an old mate of his came and he said, I said, ‘I’ll go and have a shower and get in bed then.’ So I’d not been in bed a while and ‘Tom. Tom.’ What is? What? He was at the side of my bed. No skin on his face. And what he’d done him and his mate had won, won two bottles of whisky and he’s, he’d drunk the whisky himself and he’d crawled because there were [pause] where all the Nissen huts were, were all rough concrete and everything.
GR: Yeah.
TW: He crawled all the way back and said what are we going to do about it? So we took him down to hospital, err hospital. Knocking on side and [unclear] doing.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And if he’d have been, if he’d have been an Englishman and an English thing they’d have let him off but they said, ‘No we’re going to. He’s going to get in trouble.’ So, ‘No. We’ll take him back and look after him.’ So we took him back and put him in bed and put a rope around him. And he were four and a half days living on oxo and bread.
GR: Probably taught him a lesson. Yeah.
TW: But he was such a character.
GR: Yeah.
TW: A typical Aussie.
GR: You obviously started on Halifaxes. Did you fly in any other aircraft or —
TW: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: Because when you first went to 426 squadron were they with —
TW: 462.
GR: Sorry, 462.
TW: Yeah. I went straight there. But when I came home to get married.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Three weeks before the war ended. When we came back after nine days it was all over the camp our plane had blown up because there were two crews for one. One plane.
GR: Oh right.
TW: One kite.
Other: You should have flown but you didn’t because you got married and the plane went —
TW: No. I said, while we were at the wedding and all that that plane has gone and got blown up on the end of the runway.
GR: With the crew inside.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Did the crew perish?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Right. Why was there, why would there have been two crews to the one plane?
TW: Well, you’d got to arm mostly every night.
GR: Right.
TW: Because a bomber, Lancasters were going out every night and we had to do it over a time. But there was two squadrons on Foulsham
GR: Yeah.
TW: 192.
Other: 162. 462 were it?
TW: No. No. 192. That crew. And they had Halifaxes like us doing the same thing. But they’d got Mosquitoes.
GR: Right.
TW: And when we went out they used to go up with us.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And they’d take off about twenty minutes, twenty five minutes later and they helped us to save us because it were that. The Germans wanted all of us killed on this 100 Group.
GR: Yeah, because 100 group were special operations.
TW: That’s right.
GR: Jamming German radar.
TW: What we had, we had a Canadian who could speak German as a woman or a man. And then he’d jam their radio.
GR: Yeah.
TW: So they didn’t know where they were going. But we went out with main force. Right.
GR: Yeah.
TW: On the route and then so far, so far along we’d turn off. Turn away. And then with this bloke who had special, dropping Window out so that they didn’t know which was the main. Which was the main stream.
GR: Yeah.
Other: You got a lot more leave didn’t you because you were on special?
TW: Yeah. We got —
Other: Special ops.
TW: Yeah. We got every month and Bomber Command got five, five weeks. Six weeks.
GR: Yeah. How many operations? Can you remember how many operations you actually flew, Tom?
TW: I was on nine from there.
GR: Yeah.
TW: One from Foulsham. From —
Other: Didn’t it work out —
TW: From Riccall.
Other: Didn’t it work out at thirteen you did —
TW: Yeah.
Other: But you said when you looked at the book other day you’d done more than that.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
Other: You’d done more in the book than you’d realised.
TW: Well, that’s right. That was the main thing anyway. Not nine.
GR: Yeah. And did you have any close encounters with the Germans while you were flying?
TW: No.
GR: Because they, they could actually track your aircraft because of the radar emissions you were giving couldn’t they?
TW: No.
GR: No.
TW: No.
GR: Because I thought they targeted 100 Group.
Other: You were deliberately doing it so they’d follow you didn’t they?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
Other: Yeah. So —
TW: To get away from main force.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Because there were that many blokes getting killed. Probably hundreds and hundreds a day because there were —
GR: Oh, there were. Yeah.
TW: About three hundred to about six hundred Lancasters.
GR: But because of that I thought the Germans actually targeted your squadron.
TW: Oh they tried to. Tried to —
GR: Yeah. They tried to get you more than.
TW: Yeah. Yes.
GR: Yeah.
TW: It was —
GR: Did they ever come close?
TW: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And the rear gunner were the best man I’ve ever known. He was brilliant.
GR: Right.
TW: Mid-upper gunner were frightened. He said if, of course when we were all going on the target where we were going to go. Me, the two gunners had got I had to, I could see out. Out of the plane.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And we were all watching all the time for them but he told me, ‘I’m frightened.’ So turned out that sometimes I had to go up in the turret. But they were right nice blokes.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Unbelievable living under them conditions.
GR: Yeah. Did they all survive?
TW: Pardon?
GR: Did they all survive the war?
TW: Did I —
GR: No. Did they all survive?
TW: Oh.
GR: Yeah.
TW: They with me. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
GR: And did they all go back to Aus, as soon as the war finished 8th of May ’45.
TW: What they did was they took the crews about four or five days. No. About say eight days afterwards.
GR: Yeah.
TW: They went straight back.
GR: They went straight back home didn’t they?
TW: Yeah. And the pilot, he were a gem.
Other: You went straight out to Germany then didn’t you?
TW: Yeah. And then —
GR: So I was just going to say so what happened to you? You’ve flown with these chaps. Then all of a sudden you’re on your own.
TW: Yeah. But he came to me. You know. Said how good I’d been with him.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Because you could get a lot of trouble with an aircraft, I’ll tell you that. In the war. But my job was that busy you’d no chance of being [pause] you know. You were that busy you weren’t bothered about what was happening.
GR: What else was going on because you had too much to do.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Because what you did I’d got a small paper like a cardboard computer that we’d got and you, when you, when you took off you had four engines.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Like when you got up to about ten thousand feet started back. Well, I’d already known what we’d done then and then after that every time that we changed petrol tanks I had to go to work it out where it goes. But what it was there was twelve tanks right. In the wings mostly. In the wings. And [pause] what was I going to say?
GR: You had to control the flow of fuel.
TW: Yes. That’s right.
GR: To all, to all the tanks.
TW: That’s right. But I’d got to control it right through until the next day. Well, what they did they filled the planes up to the top with fuel. Two thousand gallons.
GR: Two thousand.
TW: Right. And if you’d gone over fifty it makes a difference. Jankers. You were on jankers.
GR: Oh right.
TW: Well, I never went over thirty so —
GR: You were alright.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: But it is complicated when you can fly that plane on one tank or four. Four on one tank and two over but what it is when you took off with a full load when you got up to altitude that you want you had to start getting rid of the outer ones.
GR: Right. I was going to ask you.
TW: So that all the way through like that because [pause] Oh, I’ve just forgotten my thought.
Other: When you land you’ve got petrol’s on the inside or the outside.
TW: Well, that was done but no.
GR: You certainly had to have the weight dispersed evenly.
TW: I just forget.
GR: It doesn’t matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yes as flight engineers you had to control the flow of fuel.
TW: Yeah. Well, there was, there was —
GR: Do all this and do all that.
TW: The pilot or me could say no. We’re not going. You know. And engines had been in for servicing. The plane we had and when we, when we got out I thought chuffing hell, there’s something wrong here. We were getting hot. The engines. The engines were getting hot. So I worked it out and the radial engines, engines like that and they’ve got one of nine there and nine there. Pistons. And there’s a gill around. The rear one is cooler than the rear ones.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And this thing was getting boiling hot and I —
GR: It’s your job to sort it out.
TW: Yeah. Well, I rang the doings up and said it’s the gills. What they’d done they must have took the engine out and put it back on and it hadn’t been graded with these gills.
GR: Yeah.
TW: But put [unclear] back. Back of thing and we’d go about thirty, forty doings and I said to him, ‘You’ll have to slack back. Drop back.’ And we were going slow. Slower and slower and then when we turned around to come they were alright.
GR: Right.
TW: But it was, they were done, and when we came that one from Riccall we went on that raid and when we come back the, the lights for the wheels coming down wasn’t bloody working and we were flying around the doings.
Other: The airfield.
TW: And they were there looking out of the office windows to see if they’d come down.
GR: To see. Yeah.
TW: So, we did it for long enough and then I said, ‘No. Go on. Go to —’ I even went down to the back wheel, I said [pause] anyway we landed and everybody were like that.
GR: The wheels had come down.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Just the lights that weren’t working.
TW: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah. So why did they send you out to Germany, Tom?
TW: Pardon?
GR: At the end of the war you went out to Germany.
TW: What I did, they all went back and I went to Catterick and to say whether I wanted to stop in the RAF or come out and I said come out. So I went and I was a transport manager. And I just, I went to where’s the Dambusters?
GR: Scampton.
TW: I were there for about, about three months.
GR: Right.
TW: And then they said you’ll have to go to Germany. So went to Germany. Well, I went down to London and then we went up to Hull. And it was just starting to snow and we got on a boat on the doings and when we were going [pause] not going this was this a, this was a major. Once we get out of the, out of the —
GR: Out of the harbour.
Other: Harbour.
TW: The harbour.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Ten. I think it were ten doings.
Other: Force ten gale wasn’t it? Or something.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Oh right.
TW: If you went on the deck to go for a meal or anything the bloody snow was going like that. Anyway, we got to Cuxhaven and there were a foot of ice on the harbour.
GR: Bloody hell.
TW: And they took us to a place to sleep. No heating at all. And it was just a bunk. Wood bunks with straw in.
GR: Right.
TW: So I were there about five days and then I went or got to go to Northern Germany and it were 4 o’clock in the morning when we set off and then they stopped the train so far, about probably a hundred mile to put water in the train. And while we’re, while we’re sat there where did they go? Some little kids with aprons on with pockets chocky full of money.
GR: They were like begging. Yeah
TW: Police come down. Their police with coshers. How many were killed?
GR: Killed?
TW: Police.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Hitting these little girls and boys with bloody bayonets. With the soldiers
Other: Who killed the police then?
TW: Pardon?
Other: Who killed the police?
TW: I’m not telling you.
Other: Oh.
TW: It was. And then when we got to Hamburg.
GR: Yeah.
TW: At Hamburg on the boat there were a lot of national doings.
Other: National what?
GR: German.
TW: No. It was England. They’d, been, they’d got called up didn’t they? National. There were a name for them anyway.
Other: Conscientious objectors.
TW: No. No. No. No. We got there and I got off and I were going to go to Brunswick so [pause] and these lads because if you went to Berlin you had to take a rifle and fifty bullets.
GR: Right.
TW: That was so it couldn’t be done by taking us in bulk and Russians pinching the bloody everything.
GR: The Russians. Yeah. Because the Russians were in Berlin weren’t they?
TW: Yeah. So I said to these, these young lads that were only eighteen you know, they were frightened to death. I said if you, if they pull that door open what you are in, they were like goods thing.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And you know, ‘Shoot them.’ And they said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘Shoot the buggers else they’ll shoot you.’
GR: Yeah.
TW: And then I went on to Brunswick and I were there five months.
GR: Right. What, what was you doing in Brunswick, Tom?
TW: Pardon?
GR: What was you doing in Brunswick?
TW: Oh. Motor transport
GR: Motor transport. Oh right. Yeah.
TW: Mostly I used to do airfield because it were a little airfield on this. And I used to have to get up in a morning and there’d be a little aeroplane coming and I’d run down and this bloke come out and he were top bloke in the Army.
GR: Oh right.
TW: British Army. And he said, ‘Why haven’t you got a tie on?’ And I said, ‘I’ve just got out of bed.’ But if you’d gone there and saw that place. There were no housing, coal, electricity, water, food. They was eating all cats and dogs. Horses. Everything. Brunswick, there was just one building in the middle and it was run by these Jewish people and you could go in there. A little orchestra playing. You could go in there and say I want to phone home tomorrow. If you went back there were a phone.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: And did you get to see any other German cities?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Hamburg were flatted. Hanover were flattened. Berlin were bloody flattened. There was only one place open. Not touched. A place called Celle –
GR: Right.
TW: With a C.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Celle with a C. And there was a [unclear] on it and there were a platform and he were on a white horse directing traffic.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And [unclear] That was the worst place. They landed the airborne. We landed airborne. British.
GR: Yes.
TW: And that was the same. Only one building and it were, they used it as a garage. As a petrol.
GR: It must have took them years to recover.
TW: Oh.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Everything were flat.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And we were living in where these scientists had been. We were living in there at —
GR: Rightly or wrongly it was a job to be done though.
TW: Yeah.
GR: You know. You were there, you were there to bomb it.
TW: And this, this old lady looked after three. Three rooms. Three different blokes. And used to play hell with me [laughs] I’d say, ‘Who’s won the bloody war?’ But she were going to go but I made sure she got some food.
GR: She got food.
TW: She got that.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Aye. She used to come to my room at 5 o’clock and then they’d send it from our cookhouse to do doings for me.
GR: To do. So, she knew what she knew. Anywhere after Germany? Did you get reposted or —
TW: No. I stopped there.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And came back to England and got demobbed.
GR: Demobbed.
TW: My wife was ready for a baby so —
GR: Right. And you’d got married just before the end.
TW: Three weeks before the war ended.
GR: Before the end of the war. Yeah.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. What did you do after the war, Tom? So demobbed.
TW: I got demobbed. I went on a, on a building site and I went in a steelworks where it were all running up and down with red hot steel. And then I went on to open cast coal.
GR: This was back in Yorkshire. Back near Doncaster.
TW: No.
GR: No.
TW: This was at Wentworth.
GR: Wentworth.
TW: Wentworth in [unclear]
GR: Right.
Other: He drove.
TW: Best job. Best job.
Other: The big thing on, outcrop thing he drove. What do they call it? [unclear]
TW: I could drive any of them.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And I think I were there, I were there quite a while. Used to get paid and you were on a bonus all the time. So what you did, what the firm did, they gave us a national doings so I could go to the Post Office.
Other: Savings. A savings thing was it?
TW: No. You could just take this form down to the Post Office and you would get your wage and open.
Other: Bonus.
TW: No. No. What it was is if your wage went about something they’d give you these things.
GR: They’d give you extra.
TW: That’s right. When you could get it. I was ten or twelve hours days and nights. Well, the money I earned was unbelievable. And I did that for about four. I think it were about four years and then I went in to the steelworks.
GR: Right.
TW: And I went right to the top.
GR: Steelworks in Sheffield or —
TW: At Rotherham.
GR: Rotherham. That’s —
Other: Rotherham. Strip mills at Brinsworth.
GR: Strip. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: He went in with a Roller for years.
TW: I ran it for years and everything was happy.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And I’d got a lovely wife.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Up there.
GR: Oh yeah. On the wall.
Other: Where were you when you took my mum up in the plane?
TW: Yeah. Don’t tell anybody. They’ll prosecute me.
GR: They won’t.
TW: At Lindholme.
GR: Lindholme. Yeah.
TW: I was at Lindholme. Transport there for about six weeks and she rolled up from my mother’s, our house and I said, ‘I’ve got a little job for you,’ and I went and asked him, and the bloke said, ‘Oh, get in.
GR: What were, what plane did you take her up in?
TW: Lancaster.
GR: Oh, you took her up in the Lancaster. Who was the pilot?
TW: Eh?
GR: Who was the pilot?
TW: It was a training. Training.
GR: Oh right. Yeah. Yeah.
TW: Aye, but wait a minute do you know where Lindholme is?
GR: That’s now the prison, isn’t it?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. And at the end of the war it was, it was for Italian and German prisoners of war wasn’t it?
TW: No.
GR: No.
TW: What I’m talking about was if he were there I didn’t see it.
GR: Right.
TW: A bloke walking about with his parachute.
Other: Lindholme ghost.
TW: A ghost.
Other: Lindholme has a ghost.
TW: Ghost.
GR: Oh right. Yeah.
TW: Everybody, every bloody newspapers and all what but they were people on that said they’d seen him.
GR: They’d seen him but you didn’t. You didn’t see him.
TW: Oh, no. No.
GR: No. No.
TW: But it was in the Telegraph and Star and —
GR: Oh right.
TW: They were calling me but what it was is the peat bogs where he, where he crashed his Wellington [pause] But I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the Air Force and everything.
GR: I think everybody I’ve ever spoke to.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Have said yeah war is a bad thing but their time in the RAF —
TW: The funny thing was when I first got to Lindholme I were walking down this road and this bloke said, ‘Do you mind? Are you going to salute me or what?’ I said, ‘What about these here?’ Well, he had —
Other: Stripes.
GR: Stripes, yeah.
TW: No. No. No. I’d got about five medals.
GR: So you were both in uniform.
TW: Aye. Yeah. And he said, ‘I’ll have you charged.’
Other: Weren’t you a higher rank then him then?
TW: He was a first, no he was a first doings but he’d come from school straight in.
GR: Right.
TW: And he said, ‘I’ll report you.’ I said, ‘You bloody report me,’ I said, ‘While you’ve been in bed I’ve been bloody bombing Germany.’
GR: Right.
TW: You know.
GR: What rank did you finish up as, Tom?
TW: I should have been warrant officer.
GR: Yeah.
TW: But it didn’t come through.
GR: Right. Because and also right at the end of the war I think all those who had become warrant officer they knocked them back.
TW: Yeah.
GR: To flight sergeants, didn’t they?
TW: Yeah.
GR: So, yeah. But —
TW: I was lucky as I say it was nearly the end of the war.
GR: Yeah.
TW: But I was only that age.
GR: That’s it. You can only join up when you can join up.
TW: Yeah.
Other: You got banned from your boxing as well didn’t you because they said it had cost too much to train you.
TW: Oh aye. I did. I’d gone up. My mother one day, no. I’d got home from school and I went to go down this road and this kid whalloped me one. He were about fourteen or fifteen and I were about ten. So my mother said, I were crying, she said, ‘Get off out and go and hit him. Hit him on his nose.’ So I did do and when my dad came, my dad were on nights regularly in the pit and he came around and said, ‘Who was was it?’ I’d gone and hit him. This bloke. This lad. Anyway, when my dad got up after he’d had his sleep he said, ‘Come on. We’re going down to our Teddie’s.’ And he were heavyweight pit man.
GR: Right. Boxer. Yeah.
TW: Aye. And they were three [pause] three wrestlers and three boxers and they’d got a ring in —
GR: Yeah.
TW: In a barn. And they were bloody lightning. I’ll tell you that. And I did that from fourteen, I think it was when I started that. Fourteen. And then I went into the RAF I started a boxing with different teams like.
GR: Yeah.
TW: And when I got halfway through last five month of —
GR: Training.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: They said, ‘You can’t box anymore because it’s costing too much to train you for your job.’
GR: Right. And you were beating everybody up. It was probably costing the RAF. All the people you were fighting.
TW: Aye, but one of the best one I ever had we were boxing against American Golden Gloves.
GR: Oh right.
TW: Bloody thing and during the day I’d already been in, there were a decompression chamber you used to have to sit in. Four on that side and four on this and they’d take the masks off that side, then pull all the air out of it.
Other: So you passed out.
TW: That’s right.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Until that one passed out and then you would have, they’d have to give you, you’d have to get to the other side. They made me do it twice and I were mad because I’d been training for this —
Other: You were boxing that night weren’t you or something and they made you go in the decompression chamber for some tests.
TW: Yeah. Anyway —
GR: The day before.
TW: I flattened him. He were only a young bloke.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Americans loved the RAF. Their Air Force.
GR: Yeah. Why? Well, I know they did but, you know.
TW: I’d got, I’d got leave and we was going to Kiel Canal and Lancasters dropped six ton bomb. Six ton bombs.
GR: Right. Yeah.
TW: Doings. And just we were just going to leave this bloke shouted me. He said, ‘Come here and have a look.’ You could see it laid on its side. This big, big battleship in water. Pilots clothes on, floating on —
Other: All the sailors clothes were on the side or the other,
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
TW: So I got on a train and there were some American doing and he said flipping heck he said, this bloke said, ‘You had a right night last night.’
GR: Last night. Yeah.
TW: So Lancasters shelled it definitely and then when I got, when I got home to Rotherham he didn’t like me, her old man so —
Other: That’s father in law.
TW: Yeah. He put wireless on and it said, “RAF bombers last night — ’ No. I told him and then it come on the news.
GR: Oh right.
Other: And he didn’t believe you when you said you turned that boat over.
TW: Yeah.
Other: What were it called? Can you —
TW: Von.
Other: Von Scheer were it?
TW: No. Von.
GR: There was the Scheer
TW: Von Scheer. That were it.
GR: Yeah. the Scheer which is S C H E E R. The Scheer.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Was bombed later.
TW: Yeah. That was the one. It were laid over in Kiel. Kiel.
Other: They bombed it and tipped it over didn’t it?
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. There was the Von Hipper and the Scheer.
TW: Yeah.
GR: It would have been the Scheer then if you —
TW: We shot the, where they sank it.
GR: They sank the Tirpitz. The Tirpitz was sunk in November ’44.
TW: No.
GR: No.
Other: Bismarck.
TW: Before that.
GR: Oh, the Bismarck was the —
TW: Bismarck.
GR: Yeah. That was the Fleet Air Arm in 1941.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: That was, that was the same Von Scheer that turned over.
GR: Right.
TW: But in, in Hamburg Harbour there were a submarine had been blown out of the water onto the bloody quayside.
GR: You were doing a good job. The RAF did.
Other: They did all that lot and then helped —
TW: The RAF saved the world
Other: Helped to pay to rebuild Germany and now Germany want to rule it all again.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Yeah. The RAF saved the world but if the Battle had Britain had failed —
GR: Yeah.
TW: They’d have got our Navy which was the biggest in the world.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Army. And Air Force.
GR: The fighter pilots did it in 1940 and then Bomber Command —
TW: Yeah.
GR: For the next four. Four and a half, five years.
TW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
TW: Fifty five thousand men were killed.
GR: They were.
TW: In Bomber Command.
GR: Yeah. It was the highest casualty rate in the war.
TW: Biggest in the world.
GR: Apart from the German U-boat arm.
TW: Yeah.
GR: So, I’ll just put that down. That’s not bad.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tom Walker
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWalkerT180717, PWalkerT1801
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:49:46 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Description
An account of the resource
Tom was born in Stainforth, near Doncaster. His father and two brothers were miners. One of his sisters was in the Auxiliary Territorial Service and the other was a qualified nurse; she became a sister in Barnsley Hospital until she joined the Army. She then went to Germany and eventually to Burma before being made a major at Bombay hospital. Tom left school at fourteen and joined the Air Training Corps. A few months later he went to night school at the technical college, gained qualifications and went to work as a tool setter before volunteering for the Royal Air Force. He went to recruit in Sheffield and was given a job making 25lb shells. In about 1943 he received his call-up papers, and was posted at Rotherham, St. Andrews, London, Newquay and then to training at RAF Riccall as flight engineer. His Australian crew was at the Heavy Conversion Unit with 462 Squadron, then carried out carrying out nine operations. Tom married the week before the war ended and while on holiday his plane blew up on the runway, killing all the crew. At the end of the war Tom became a transport manager at RAF Scampton for about three months before being sent to northern Germany. He stayed at Braunschweig for five months on motor transport at a small airport. On returning to England he was demobbed and worked on a building site before moving to the steel works at Rotherham.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Burma
India
India--Mumbai
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--London
England--Newquay
England--Rotherham
England--Sheffield
Germany
Germany--Braunschweig
Scotland--Fife
Scotland--St. Andrews
England--Cornwall (County)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Group
462 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crash
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
love and romance
RAF Foulsham
RAF Riccall
RAF Waddington
training