1
25
53
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/171/921/PAtkinsAH1518.2.jpg
a76ed21dd099654bcf8ac9520dd18546
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/171/921/PAtkinsAH1519.2.jpg
1c4e49b544bc36e77001117bea9911d5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Atkins, Arthur
A H Atkins
Description
An account of the resource
24 items. An oral history interview with Arthur Atkins DFC (d. 2022, Royal Australian Air Force), his logbook and 23 photographs. Arthur Atkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia and joined the RAAF. After training he flew 32 operations as a pilot with 625 Squadron from RAF Kelstern.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Atkins and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Atkins, A
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending additional content
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
1934 Singer Lemans
Description
An account of the resource
A soft top sports car with the roof up, registration PO 8455, standing in front of an arched corrugated iron building. In the background other buildings on the reverse '1934 Singer Lemans, RAF Kelstern, Lincolnshire, Winter 44/45, 625 Squadron'
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944
1945
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PAtkinsAH1518, PAtkinsAH1519
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
625 Squadron
Nissen hut
RAF Kelstern
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/143/1365/MHawkinsD158602-151002-01.1.pdf
59c7d92b5ad6fd4b0acb191dac0c6bd5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hawkins, Des
Des Hawkins
Desmond Hawkins
D H Hawkins
D Hawkins
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Desmond Howard Hawkins DFC (158602 Royal Air Force), one photograph, a diagram and notes about his service. Des Hawkins volunteered for the Royal Air Force in 1941. He trained as a navigator in Canada and flew 47 operations in Lancasters with 44, 625 and 630 Squadrons from RAF Waddington, RAF Dunholme Lodge, RAF East Kirkby and RAF Kirmington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Des Hawkins and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-20
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hawkins, DH
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] 630 SQUADRON LANCASERS [sic] [/UNDERLINED]
[underlined] NIGHT [/underlined] [underlined] PILOT /[underlined] [underlined]FLYING
TIMES [/underlined/
18 NOV. 1943 FLT/SGT BURNESS BERLIN 7.55
̎ 22 NOV ̎ FLT/SGT BURNESS BERLIN 5.50
̎ 23 NOV ̎ FLT/SGT BURNESS BERLIN 6.10
ABOVE OPERATIONS — FT/LT D.H. HAWKINS
[underlined] WAS NAVIGATOR 158602 [/underlined]
625 SQUADRON — LANCASTERS
NIGHT 14 JAN 1945 F/LT CONNOR MERSEBURG 8.10
̎ 16 JAN ̎ F/LT CONNOR ZEITZ 7.50
̎ 8 FEB ̎ F/LT CONNOR POLITZ 8.25
̎ 14 FEB ̎ F/LT CONNOR CHEMNITZ 8.40
̎ 21 FEB ̎ F/LT CONNOR DUISBURG 6.05
DAY 1 MAR ̎ F/LT CONNOR MANNHEIM 6.15
DAY 2 MAR ̎ F/LT CONNOR COLOGNE 5.10
NIGHT 5 MAR ̎ F/LT CONNOR CHEMNITZ 9.35
DAY 23 MAR ̎ F/LT CONNOR BREMEN 4.05
DAY 27 MAR ̎ F/LT CONNOR PADERBORN 4.45
DAY 31 MAR ̎ F/LT CONNOR HAMBURG 5.05
DAY 3 APRIL ̎ F/LT CONNOR NORDHAUSEN 6.15
NIGHT 9 APRIL {GARDENING (MINING)
{KIEL HARBOUR 6.00
NIGHT 16 APRIL POTSDAM 8.55
DAY 18 APRIL HELIGOLAND 4.30
DAY 22 APRIL BREMEN 4.40
DAY 1ST MAY ROTTERDAM 3.05
(DROPPING FOOD)
ABOVE OPERATIONS
FLT/LT D.H. HAWKINS 158602
WAS NAVIGATOR
END
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Des Hawkins' service history and list of operations
Description
An account of the resource
Account of the 1941-1946 service history of Flight Lieutenant Des Hawkins with 44, 625 and 630 Squadrons.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Three handwritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MHawkinsD158602-151002-01, MHawkinsD158602-151002-02
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Italy
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Des Hawkins
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Karl Williams
David Bloomfield
44 Squadron
625 Squadron
630 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
C-47
Distinguished Flying Cross
mine laying
navigator
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Kelstern
RAF Kirmington
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Waddington
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/171/2319/AtkinsAH1501.1.jpg
830d36dbb0e2983788b5232c59af5c29
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/171/2319/AAtkinsA151121.1.mp3
a335b230e07e85171cab65215eb6d2d2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Atkins, Arthur
A H Atkins
Description
An account of the resource
24 items. An oral history interview with Arthur Atkins DFC (d. 2022, Royal Australian Air Force), his logbook and 23 photographs. Arthur Atkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia and joined the RAAF. After training he flew 32 operations as a pilot with 625 Squadron from RAF Kelstern.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Atkins and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Atkins, A
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending additional content
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: So this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive is with Arthur Atkins, a 625 squadron Lancaster pilot during the Second World War. The interview is taking place at Arthur’s house in Kew in Melbourne. My name’s Adam Purcell. It’s the 21st of November 2015. Arthur we’ll start from the beginning if you don’t mind.
AA: Right.
AP: Tell us something of your early life, what you were doing growing up, and what you did before the war.
AA: Yeah well I was born at 212 Prospect Hill Road in, Prospect Hill Road oh what was the suburb? Surrey Hills, Surrey Hills. Then we moved to Canterbury when I was about eight or nine and I attended the Canterbury state school up to grade six. Then the equivalent of grade seven I started Scotch College. I was there for six years and I mainly concentrated on business subjects because that’s what I thought I would be going into and I did. I worked in an insurance company for about three or four years. I didn’t do any flying then but I, when I was a small boy and I was in the Cubs, you know, the junior Boy Scouts, they, one Saturday afternoon, we went down to the old airfield on Coode Island and I had my first flight in an aeroplane at about the age of nine, I should think. Eight or nine. Two cubs in the one cockpit. I don’t know who sat on whose knee. I can’t remember that but we were both in the cockpit half standing looking out over each side I should imagine but that was my first experience of flying and then I entered the Sun News Pictorial’s competition for someone most likely to fly, be able to fly an aeroplane and they’d get a free instruction to pilot licence but I didn’t, I didn’t win. There was, I think there was about a hundred people went for it and I was just one of them. I flew the aeroplane, an old Avro Avian I think it was. Single engine thing. I flew it for a little while because I’d flown model planes a lot and I knew exactly what it should do. I thought I did alright but no, I didn’t win it but then in my last year at Scotch I went in, tried to get in to the Point Cook pilot’s training system. I think there was about twenty vacancies or something and I think there was about two thousand people volunteered for it so I didn’t get that one either. However, when the war broke out I got in to the army militia I think in the middle of 1944. Well, that was alright. I didn’t mind it. September ‘44 it was and I had three months. September, October, November. I decided I’d get out so one day when I was on leave I called in to the recruiting office in Russell Street, for the Air Force that is, and they immediately signed me up. Gave me a piece of paper showing that I was a member of the RAAF and my rank was AC2. Aircraftman class 2. And then I had to attend about three times a week at various places to fit me for going into the initial training school. Mathematics and so on. Anyway, I got in and I, that was in nineteen, but the thing was going on to the reserve where I had to do these exercises and so on, lectures, about a fortnight before Pearl Harbour. This. About two weeks before that and the date of that is, December the 7th. I think it was about November the 20th or something that I enlisted in the Air Force. Just as well because I wouldn’t have been able to get out of the, the army as easily as I did and I was unfortunately of course it was mid-winter at Somers. Coldest place I’ve been in my life and some people used to wear their pyjamas under everything else because they only gave us very sort of flimsy one-piece overalls to wear in the midwinter at Somers. By September things were looking up a bit and I finished the course then and they called me in to tell me where I’d be going to next as everyone had depending on your results and they said, ‘We want to make you a navigator,’ because I was very good at mathematics at that stage and I was also a qualified accountant at that stage but I said, ‘No. I don’t want to be a navigator. I want to fly the aeroplanes. Thanks.’ And they said, ‘Well, you came top of your course.’ Course number 28 at Somers. ‘So you actually have a choice of what you’re going to do.’ They didn’t tell me that at first. Only when I objected to being a navigator. And they said well seeing you came top you can choose to train as a pilot and I went up to Benalla and flew Tiger Moths. I was there for two or three months. It’s all there in the logbook but Benalla was good fun flying the Tigers. I never broke one or landed one badly or anything like that and I came out of that alright and they sent me then after about three months, around about Christmastime ’44, ‘44 I suppose it would have been. No, no, would have been Christmas, Christmas ‘43 because I got to England in, in ‘43. Yeah, it would have been ’42. Yeah. Christmas ‘42 would have been the date I finished at Benalla and went to Mallala, South Australia about forty miles north of Adelaide. Looked like the desert and felt like it. I think it was a hundred and eight degrees for three or four days on one occasion and the beds inside the iron huts were that hot you couldn’t sit on the iron bedsteads because they were too hot to be comfortable. But anyway that was, it was quite good. I was there for, until about April or May. Mallala, South Australia, yeah, I’ll put my glasses on. I can read what I’ve written. Yeah. Yeah so I left Mallala on the, in April ‘43 and went to Ascot Vale showgrounds and I was there, only there for two or three weeks with, and fortunately I had a friend I was with, a fella named David Browne and we used to just wander around the city for a while doing nothing just waiting for something to happen and then finally in May, about the middle of April, 25th of April I was sent to Point Cook to do a course on blind approach. That is flying the beam in to land and had quite a bit of other, other work too. In fact, for about ten days I was in charge of the control tower at Point Cook. Not that any accidents ever happened so I wasn’t tested there. I just looked out the window and talked to the, the blokes from the fire cart and the ambulance from down below the control tower and I remember saying, ‘What happens if something goes wrong? What am I supposed to do?’ They said, ‘Send a signal.’ ‘Signal?’ I said. ‘What’s a signal?’ Apparently they meant send some sort of a telegram to, to someone or other. The boss of the group, of that particular group. Anyway, that only lasted a little while and then I was on flying there on Oxfords. Airspeed Oxfords. Mostly under the hood, you know, blind flying on the beam. After that I went to Bradfield Park in Sydney just prior to catching a boat to San Francisco and they put us on a, an American, converted to troopship so a small, sort of, it had been a coastal [trader] I think or something like that. Proper steam steamship called the Mount Vernon which was something to do with George Washington’s home town or something like that and we headed out across towards New Zealand. I was seasick but my friend David Browne wasn’t. I was a bit envious of him. He could still eat these rather sickly, sickly looking thick drinks that he used to get from the canteen while I was chuntering out over the rail. And we got in, finally we got in to New Zealand on the North Island. Auckland. And that was quite interesting. We got off the ship. We were allowed to stay to see New Zealand in four hours so we did that and two or three, there was a group of two or three of us just walking along in Auckland somewhere and we got picked up by a couple of girls who said, ‘Come home and have dinner with us.’ You know, and being generous to the troops so we followed them and went home and spoke to all their family and had a very nice dinner, the three of us, for nothing, you know, just because we happened to be in navy blue uniforms and the New Zealanders had the grey blue uniform of the RAF. But a funny thing happened. While we were just lolling around after dinner the fiancé or boyfriend of one of the girls arrived at the front door and everyone was a little bit embarrassed about that, picking up strange troops, you know, foreign troops, on in the street. So we said, ‘Oh well, we’re off now anyway. Thank you very much,’ we went back to the boat but the bloke who came to the front door was wearing a New Zealand Air Force uniform. He’d been on some island, I think, just north of New Zealand somewhere on duty and he’d just got some leave to come back to Auckland. Anyway, we got back on the boat and then the next thing we knew we’d, we were pulling into San Francisco harbour and sailing under the Golden Gate Bridge escorted in the last part of the trip to there by a blimp and we also saw a submarine. And there was a bloke working on a ship unloading it or loading it. An American ship alongside where we were and a couple of blokes sang out to him, ‘What are you doing sport?’ or something like that. He said, ‘Go home limey.’ [laughs] He thought we were British. He’d probably never heard of Australia. And while we were, we had about a month in America which was one of the most delightful times of my whole life because the Americans were very generous at handing out food, lifts here and there. We went down to New York on one occasion and we had a weekend in New York, in New York in 1943 which not many people from Australia ever experienced. And up, up the, up all the skyscrapers, the Empire State, and we went around to the theatre where the Rockets were dancing around the stage, about a dozen of them, high kicking on the stage. That that was sort of interesting. But then we, we found out that we could go in to any of the night clubs and just have a drink at the bar, and pay for it but you couldn’t sit down. You didn’t have to pay fifty dollars like the Yanks had to, to go in and sit down at a table. We could just go in and stand at the, at the bar and have a drink and watch what was going on and at one stage we were in the Astor Roof Nightclub and the band leader who was Harry, someone or other. Betty Grable, his girlfriend or wife, was sitting in the front row near the band. We were in the table a bit further back. We’d been, we were standing at the bar, a couple of friends and myself, air force people, and this bloke came over and said, ‘Would you like to sit at our table.’ I think there must have been just the two of us by that stage. One of them had gone off somewhere else and I said, ‘Yeah, that’s alright,’ and he sat us down at a table. He had his wife and two women. Married women probably. And we made up a nice party of six people all at his expense. Very good. Then we went back to his hotel afterwards and had a few whiskies I think, if I remember rightly. But that was how the Americans were with us. They asked some funny questions like, ‘Where did you learn to speak English?’ at times. I think they thought we came from Austria or something. Confused Austria with Australia. So, they didn’t know much about Australia, the Americans but we had, in New York, we had all the, comforts like free food, free breakfasts and so on that they had. Then a little later we got on to the Queen Elizabeth which was to take us to England or Scotland actually and it set off and I think there was a half a dozen of us together got into the, into the cabin which was allocated to us. Seven of us got into the cabin but there were only four, four, four bunks in it but fortunately I was one of the early ones getting in. I got one of the bunks. The last man in got the floor. Four days. The Queen Elizabeth mark one it was of course at that stage zigzagged all the way across the Pacific, the, sorry, the Atlantic to Scotland, one way, alternate turning movements you know with not all exactly the same but, so that was to fool any submarines that were watching and I think they, they said the speed they were doing at one stage was forty knots, the Queen Elizabeth. Well that’s about what forty five miles an hour or something like that. Not bad for a big boat like that. Anyway, nothing happened to us. We didn’t even see any submarines. Oh but yes that boat we travelled to in New Zealand and San Francisco on got sunk about three trips later by a Japanese torpedo so I’m lucky to be here. Anyway, the boat pulled in and then we went down to Brighton on the train. The same day the boat pulled in in the morning we got, all climbed on a train and went straight to Brighton in Sussex on the south coast. That was a beautiful time too. I liked Brighton. I could have stayed there for years but they only left us there for weeks and sent us to an RAF station at Andover. There wasn’t much flying going on there. I didn’t notice any. We were only there for, what, a couple of weeks doing ground subjects. Learning the way the RAF worked but the one thing I did notice we had a very nice room to sleep in and we had, we were all sergeants then by the way. The RAF conditions were way and above anything the Australian Air Force had ever thought of and you know we had people to clean the huts, sweep the floors out, make the beds and it was just like officers would have got in Australia if they were lucky and then and weren’t living in New Guinea or something like that but that was okay and then the next move was to Greenham Common where we were once again flying Airspeed Oxfords and an interesting thing happened the first day we were there. We got there in the afternoon and a couple of us, a couple of other fellas and myself walked out across the airfield the airfield a bit. Down one end of it where they, and they weren’t flying at the time we walked there. Must have been late in the afternoon. Anyway, we got to the runway and there was a big black patch about fifty or sixty feet across and we went and had a look at the black patch and we could see someone’s braces ends here and a bit of red meat there and so on. Someone had crashed an Oxford the night before and had burned out and they hadn’t scraped everything off the runway. They’d got most of him but they probably put a few bricks in the coffin because I was detailed because my name started with A and I was just taken off the top of the list and told, ‘You’re going to carry this coffin and load it on the train this morning.’ And that was my introduction to RAF flying, carrying what remained of the pilot to the local railway station where we shoved it into the guards van and said, ‘Goodbye Sport,’ and that was it. After that there was no accidents that I can remember at Greenham Common. We were flying, practicing flying on Oxfords and I got a, above average rating for flying Oxfords there because I’d had all that practice flying them at Point Cook. A bit unfair but I didn’t knock it back but then we went to a little place from Greenham to an airfield called Long Newnton. Long Newnton N E W N T O N. A pilots’ advanced flying unit. Well so was Greenham Common. That was 15 PAFU. They moved out, moved them all out because the Americans wanted somewhere to land, to store their invasion gliders so they shifted us from Greenham Common to Long Newnton and I remember we all got loaded into a bus or train or something and got out at the local station or was dumped off at the airfield at Long Newnton. Of course we didn’t hang around there. We thought we’d wander down and have a beer at the local pub. It wasn’t very far from the airfield. We walked in to the pub in the Cotswolds it was. The Cotswolds. And as we, we went into the bar and there was a couple of blokes in there. They must have been farmers. They were wearing just ordinary clothes which was a bit unusual in England at that time to find ordinary civilians in odd little clubs, they were mostly in uniform of some sort. And one of them said to me, ‘What do you think of the Cotswolds?’ I said, ‘Cotswolds? Is that where we are?’ And we were in the Cotswolds. I’d heard of them of course. I knew almost as much about the geography of England as I did of Victoria because I’d, you know, been buying books when I was a kid. All English comics and so on and a book called “Modern Boy” or something which consisted mostly of aeroplanes and steam trains and so on and we found it was quite a pleasant place, Long Newnton and we just continued to fly our Airspeed Oxfords there and train on them but we had one bad experience. We had to do night flying. Night, night cross-countries. A triangular course. You’d fly north, then northwest, then south west and bring yourself back to the, to the base. Navigating in the dark. Just flying on instruments and if you missed, missed one of the beacons, they had beacons were flashing lights like A for one of, one of the turning points and perhaps F or something for the next turning points. You had to know your Morse code so you knew where you were and then you knew where you were and one of our blokes didn’t come back. You know, it was all at night. Black as night. And England was black as pitch most of the places except for the odd airfields and the beacons, air force beacons like that. I think they were red but I can’t quite remember. There were two types. There was red beacons and white beacons and we were flying on the, I think the red beacons but he didn’t come back and we were just waiting around. Waited around for about another hour or so and someone came out and said, ‘You can all go home now. We’re cancelling the, the, the rest of the exercise tonight. That bloke’s crashed his Oxford and killed himself and we won’t be doing any more flying tonight.’ But it didn’t stop all the flying the next day. But after we’d spent a fair bit of time flying Oxfords we were put on to Wellingtons at um where was it? Lichfield, in the Midlands. 27 OTU. We never flew them. They, some, they split this particular group I was in into two parts. One of them, one part stayed at Lichfield and did all the practising on Wellingtons and the rest and the other half of the group did the Wellington flying at a place called Church Broughton. Church Broughton. And that was where I had my experience with one engine and when we were doing practicing circuits and bumps on approaches on one engine. Then you’d fire both of them up together and not actually land. Just practicing flying around on the one engine on the port engine. The starboard engine was, let me see, no, I think we had to, yeah, we had to power off on the port engine and just use the starboard engine for getting around. On the Wellington you weren’t supposed to fly against the good engine because, I don’t know, there was some reason for it. The Wellington didn’t have enough spare [?] in it to just fly very well on one engine and if you flew against the good engine you could be giving yourself a bit of bother. You mightn’t be able to control it. So, when the starboard engine went out and I was doing a left hand circuit as usual I didn’t quite know what to do and because, according to the rules we should have done a very big circuit around to starboard and landed and done a clockwise circuit. It was always anti-clockwise normal landing circuits in the RAF except on special occasions when the airfield mightn’t have suited a clock, an anti-clockwise approach. After that, well I was on Halifaxes. Halifaxes. Yeah, I haven’t got a picture of one of those here. They, they were quite good. We were flying Halifaxes for a month and, oh yes because I, with this engine off getting back to the Wellington with the crook starboard engine it was still giving some half power but there were sparks and things and black smoke coming out the back of it from somewhere and it had it there. We knew the engine had had it but I just, because it was giving us a little bit of power, I kept going on the anti-clockwise circuit and landed. Did a quite good landing too. Smooth landing but when we came to a stop on the runway and I tried to fire the engines up to taxi back to our parking spot I couldn’t do that. It just kept going around in circuits on the, on the good engine so we had to, we were all fitted with radio of course so I called up the control tower and said, ‘Send us out a tractor. You’re going to have to drag us in. We can’t taxi,’ and I got into trouble for not bailing the crew out which I’d never heard of them doing just because they had lost an engine and what else didn’t I do right? Oh I should have feathered the, feathered the propeller on the starboard engine. All good experience and I said, ‘Well it was still giving me a bit of power so I used it to pull us around into, into the landing, landing position.’ They said, ‘Oh that’s no good. You should have, you should have bailed the crew out and feathered the engine.’ Well I’d never had those instructions. I didn’t argue after that because he was, Australian he was the flight commander. He was a sour puss, I noticed, always. He got sourer than ever when I came back next day and he found the engine had to be changed but at least he didn’t have to change the bloody Wellington and he didn’t have to change the crew. They, we wouldn’t if I had bailed them out by the time they all got out I don’t think all their parachutes would have held them, held them up off, would have opened quickly enough to save them but that didn’t oh worry him. He just didn’t like, didn’t like the rest of us I think for coming in safely and not feathering one engine but I’ve read a lot of stories about Wellingtons trying to land on one engine and about fifty percent of them crashed and killed the crew. It’s probably through the wrong engine going or something like that. I don’t know. Anyway, after that we were on the Halifaxes. They were alright but we had a few worrying moments. The Halifax had four engines of course and there were a lot of Halifax squadrons flying at that time but they were mostly flying on the radial engine Halifaxes. What, we were training on the ones that had been rejected for operations and had the old early model Merlin V12 engines, you know and they had various faults. The Halifax used to have a bad habit of swinging to the left when you landed it. I was warned about that. Then I found out afterwards that they ran out of brakes. If you did, if you did a fair bit of taxiing you found you couldn’t, your brakes had ran out of air or vacuum or something. I don’t know whether they were vacuum brakes or air brakes but the brakes didn’t work if you’d run out of certain, certain distance. Anyway, the first landing I did in a Halifax, they were still using it for bombing here and there, the first landing I did in a Halifax I did a very smooth landing. I always did smooth landings and I was very pleased with myself. We just coasted down the runway just about, you know, ready to turn off in a cross runway and back to the parking area and suddenly the Halifax, I was quite relaxed, suddenly it swung around to the left like I’d been warned about, ‘Don’t let it swing on you.’ Well, I took that with a grain of salt and didn’t take a great deal of notice but fortunately, the, er the instructor who’d actually had done a couple of circuits with me on this practising single engine flying had got out and he wasn’t watching us. He saw us come in to land and he thought that was very good, got on his bike and rode off to the mess and then by the time the, the Halifax swung around to the left and did a circle, a half a circle on the grass he was in the mess on his pushbike, with his pushbike and no one in the control tower said a word to us about it afterwards. Anyway, it swung so far we went down the runaway and swung right around and was facing the way we came, on the grass. It swung to the left. The, I think the Lancasters had a, a tendency to swing to the right. You had to, when you, when you flew a Lancaster with the four throttles in your hand you had to push one further forward to, to stop the thing turning or running off the runway. When you were taking off that was. They were alright when you were landing her but they had a little tendency when you put the full power on to go one way or the other so you had the four throttles in one hand. You pushed one throttle ahead of the other. I don’t know whether it was the little finger or the first finger. I think the Lancaster tended to swing to the right. Well if it did you’d have to put a bit more power on the, on the outer, starboard outer engine to prevent that swing. But anyway, I, I just taxied the Halifax which was on the grass facing the way we’d come in, taxied on, got it back on the runway, took it down to where we parked it, got the truck back to the or our bikes probably at that stage, bikes back to the mess and nothing was said by anyone. Not even flying control. They hadn’t seen it and the instructor hadn’t seen it so we didn’t say anything to anyone about it but it was good experience though and I never did it again. I landed Halifaxes practically every day for the next month but I never swung off the runway again. I was watching it. You couldn’t relax until the thing had stopped, stopped rolling at your, at your parking spot. Then we went to a place called, I was commissioned by that time. I, I started off as a flight sergeant at, on the Halifaxes at, at Blyton which is in Lincolnshire and I was a sergeant pilot for a couple of weeks and then I was, I went to London and got my uniform as a pilot officer and lived in the officers’ mess which was not, nothing very special but it was better than, better than the sergeants’ mess but not much. Not much better but I liked that and I didn’t have to hand in my old uniform either. I’ve still got it. I think it’s in a trunk upstairs in the roof, roof space with a couple of officers’ uniforms. But I did alright with Halifaxes and the next move was to Lancasters at what was known as Number 1 Lancaster Finishing School at, at, Hemswell, Hemswell in Lincolnshire and we had about a fortnight there I think at Hemswell and then we were given a bit of a run-around at various holding units for a couple of days until we were, we’d finished our ten-day course at at Hemswell. Eleven days to be precise. Number 1 Lancaster Finishing School. No problems there at all. I’d had my problems with the Halifax and the Wellington. Hemswell was a piece of cake until we got to our operational station called erm Kelstern. I should remember that. It’s on the front of the house. Kelstern. And we were immediately given leave to go to London. You know, they probably had their hands full at the time. It was a busy station so we had a week in London on leave. Of course all this other stuff we had, weeks in London or the countryside and I went, used to get a ticket to Scotland, the northernmost railway station in Scotland so I could go anywhere between Lincolnshire or wherever I was. I wasn’t necessarily even in Lincolnshire. I could have been in the Midlands and I would just get a train. I think it was third class while I was a sergeant and first class when I was a pilot officer but I normally travelled third class because I found there were more interesting people to talk to in third class than in first class on those trains. And, um where was I? Oh yes when we finished our London, London leave on Kelstern which was 625 squadron they sent me up on a flying, on a, just a flight around the local neighbourhood to get used to the area and the approach to landing and so on. In a Lancaster of course because I was fully qualified Lancaster pilot by that time. Ten days at the Number 1 Lancaster Finishing School. Ten days instruction on Lancasters and low and behold we were just flying around the countryside admiring the scenery and then the flight engineer says to me. ‘The starboard outer engine is overheating.’ Cheers. [laughs] I’d learned my lesson so I just said, ‘Well feather the engine. Feather the prop. Turn it off and feather it.’ So we continued our flying on three engines, two on the left side and one on the starboard side and I had flown them on three engines. In fact I’d flown them at LFS on two engines and I knew they handled perfectly well on three engines so I didn’t hesitate to feather the, to shut that starboard engine down and feather the props so we just landed and I can remember the Lanc flew almost exactly the same on three engines, two on one side and one on the other, you know, on the approach to the strip, to the runway and just did a normal landing, and we just taxied it on the two inner engines to its parking spot and I, I said to the flight sergeant in charge, ‘You’d better have a look at that engine. It’s not working.’ He said, ‘Ok.’ The next day I went out to see how he’d got on with it and he said, ‘Oh there was nothing wrong with the engine. It was just the sender on the, and it wasn’t overheating it was just a sender on the, on the engine itself was faulty and it was sending out the wrong message to the gauge on the, the, um flight engineers panel.’ He had, he had the gauges in front of him. He could, he used to watch. And then I knew I’d got on to a good aeroplane. A couple of days later we were on our first operation because we’d had our leave. It didn’t take long for them to put us on to ops and about half of our crew flew with the remains of another crew piloted by a bloke called Flight Officer Slade and flight officer is not an RAF rank. It’s an American Air Force rank and he was an American and he wore a khaki uniform, the American flying uniform and when he was around in the mess or something he had on the American officer’s uniform. A flight officer, an American flight officer, was the equivalent of a pilot officer in the RAF. But that, that trip, oh when we were flying Wellingtons of course we did a lot of night flying too and we did fly over, over France one night with a load of leaflets and this was in the Wellington and that was all we carried. We had two cans. Two small bomb container cans which were about six foot long by eighteen inches high and wide packed tight with leaflets and when you got to the correct spot the bomb aimer who was down in the nose pressed the right button and the bottom of the canister after he’d opened the bomb doors of course and all the leaflets fluttered down below. Well, for some reason or other he had a nervous attack just before he, he had to release the leaflets over Chartres was the town about forty miles south, southwest of France. Anyway, we got to Chartres alright or the bomb aimer reckoned we were over Chartres so he pressed the button and in his haste he pressed the wrong button and this great canister, six foot long canister packed tight with leaflets hanging on a bomb hook disappeared from the aeroplane and went down with all its leaflets packed tight. When we got back they wanted to know where the, where the other canister was. I mean it could have killed someone, that canister, if it had landed on someone or put a big hole in the roof of the Chartres cathedral. I believe they have a cathedral in Chartres but we never heard any more about that apart from the bombing, bombing leader quizzing the, our bomb aimer as to why he’d just come back with one empty container and he had to explain what had happened. One of the reasons it might have happened because when we were crossing just before we were crossing the French coast heading for Chartres, this was at night of course, someone in the crew said, ‘There’s a searchlight on us.’ Well of course that rattled everyone including the bomb aimer. Searchlights. And after a while we found the searchlight was following us. Well searchlights are not mobile. Not that mobile.
AP: [not that fast] anyway.
AA: And I found someone had knocked the switch. It could have been me. It could have been anyone else on the crew. It could have been the ground staff left it switched on and knocked the switch that turned the landing lights on. Well, in the Wellington the landing light normally, not being used, points straight down. When you want to use it you pull a lever and it swings the landing light forward on a hinge so that it points forward where you’re going to land. We never used it, we never used landing lights all the time, the RAF weren’t using them at the time because they had such good flare paths. Electric flare paths. Anyway, this light followed us and it wasn’t until we were well over the coast, flying over German occupied France with this bright light shining straight down and all I can think was the Germans must have looked at that and said, ‘Oh well that’s someone practicing. It wouldn’t be a foreign plane you know, flying with a light like, on like that,’ so they didn’t bother sending anyone up to investigate. I was lucky. Every now and again someone got shot down on those exploits. They called them nickels. N I C K E L S. Nickels. Dropping leaflets and practically everyone had to do a nickel as part of their course on the Wellingtons so we did ours. Anyway, we, he got the right switch for the second one, he didn’t drop that. He just opened the bottom and all the leaflets went flutter, flutter, flutter down to, down to the cathedral underneath, hopefully. Or just the town of Chartres, I don’t know where they went. Might have all gone down on someone’s farm. That was a bit nerve-wracking especially when we found the searchlight was on us. The next time I found a searchlight was on us when we were bombing um a town in Germany. It was the, er, near Frankfurt, just a little town southwest of Frankfurt where there was a General Motors factory. General Motors, USA. Opel. It was just described as an Opel factory which was still a General Motors subsidiary at that, well it was had been a subsidiary of German motors for some time. The Opels. Opel cars. And we had to do a turn on a town south, south of Frankfurt. It turned out to be a fairly hot town because approaching this town of, let’s see. I’ll just um [shuffling of papers] yeah I started my tour on Bomber Command in, in July. On the 4th of July, that was my first, with Flight Officer Slade. There, just trying to work oh Russelsheim. The Opel works at Russelsheim. That’s where the factory was and we had a turning point of probably about sixty or eighty miles south of Rüsselsheim. We were flying eastward. Basically directly east and then we had to turn north and fly north to Rüsselsheim. That’s right. Rüsselsheim and the turning point was over a town called Mannheim. Now, it was a stupid place to have a turning point because that had been bombed quite a few times and it was full of anti-aircraft guns and searchlights and we could see the searchlights and we could see anti-aircraft fire bursting in front of us as we approached, approached Mannheim and it wasn’t very long before we got picked up by a blue tinged searchlight, radar controlled from what we were told. We’d heard about these blue tinged searchlights, blue lights, and they were directly controlled by radar from the ground and if the radar picked up a Lancaster flying they could just about pinpoint it with the searchlights but they would have needed about five, about five hundred radar controllers down below to pick up every one but they used to pick out one and have a go at it. Well, instead of everything being black we got his blinding light lighting up the whole plane. I could hardly see the instruments because I was blinded. I had, you know, flying through the night to get your night vision then suddenly a thousand candle power light’s shining in your face practically and I remember thinking, ‘Jesus I’ve done all this training and now I’m going to be killed,’ I thought to myself. I pushed the stick forward fortunately and she dived quickly and I immediately lost the blue tinged searchlights. You see, when they, when they put that blue tinged light had about another half a dozen focussed on you. They could see the blue light and they, they, we had about six searchlights altogether lighting us up but we lost the light. Immediately black as pitch. And we went into a manoeuvre called the corkscrew and you sort of fly in a down to your left. Then when you are half way down to where you’re going you turn to the right and keep diving. You’re diving. You’re going very fast and then when you get down over to the right you swing it to the left and come up again and do two or three of those. Well, we were basically told that they were, you know, to evade, avoid if you get a fighter behind you if you get the words from the rear gunner, ‘There’s a fighter on you. Go into a corkscrew,’ at night and mostly we flew at night anyway. Half the time we flew at night and half the time I flew in daylight. That was, that was a different thing altogether but and you could go into the corkscrew. That was all I could think to do and I looked at the instrument panel, the airspeed indicator, just as we got near the bottom of where I was going to pull out and I think I was doing four hundred miles an hour. The top diving speed of a Lancaster at that time was three hundred and sixty miles an hour. So we were doing four hundred miles an hour. Actually, it was calibrated in knots. I’ve converted it to miles an hour and we had a full bomb load on. Rüsselheim, yeah we had a four thousand pound bomb on. That’s the high explosive one. What did they call that? They used to have a nickname for that one. Blockbuster or something like that and I don’t know what the other ones were but um oh yes we had just one high explosive bomb, one four thousand and the rest were incendiaries. It made a nasty mess if it landed on you. Anyway, it was a total of, oh I don’t know what it would be, about six or seven thousand pounds sitting underneath us so I was very careful to pull out gently from the bottom of the dive. I didn’t want to leave the wings behind which could have happened to us if you did it quickly. I think on that same raid I saw a picture of a Lancaster that came back with, with both of its ailerons useless. He’d dived too fast and pulled out to fast like the same thing I did but I pulled out fairly gently. I knew quite a bit about flying aeroplanes theoretically as well as, as well as practically and I knew you couldn’t pull out quickly ‘cause I knew what could happen but it didn’t so we just carried on and bombed the, bombed the General Motors plant and then came home again. That was one of the most interesting ones. Another interesting trip I did much later though. We did, did this trip out over the Bay of Biscay. There was an estuary, the Gironde Estuary not far from the, what would have been the Spanish border of Spain and, and the Bay of Biscay, French coast but anyway this Gironde Estuary, oh there’s some wineries up there, up the Gironde. Someone heard I’d bombed near the wineries. He said, ‘Well you’re lucky you didn’t bomb the wineries because I wouldn’t be speaking to you if you’d spoilt my, spilt my wine.’ But we didn’t. We flew from Kelstern almost due south right down to the south coast, then turned right, south, just before the south coast and flew down out to Lands End and at that stage flying to Lands End we took it down to fifty feet going over Lands End and we flew all the way around out into the Atlantic at fifty feet. Fortunately, it was a very fine day and not much wind and round in a big wide circle fifty feet all the way. I think we had four hundred Lancasters on that one. Something like that. And we had an escort though to fly over the Bay of Biscay, escorted of long range Mosquitos, fighters, in case some German type decided to have a go at us but, no one, no one showed up because we were flying at fifty feet. That was to be under the German radar of course and they never spotted us till us we were over, over the river and then they didn’t have time to get, get there and do anything. We’d gone by the time they woke up to what happened but I remember we did this two days running. We did it was the same, same town almost, almost the same spot in the Gironde Estuary. We came hammering over the Bay of Biscay at fifty feet. As we got to the coast we had to rise up a bit because there was about a thirty foot lump of hillocks and trees and stuff there so we went up a bit and as we crossed the beach I looked down and there was an old horse. You could see it was an old horse because we were only fifty or thirty feet from him looking down. It was slightly to my left just plodding along. An old draft horse it was and the driver was sitting up on the cart. He didn’t look up and the horse didn’t look up. No one, neither of them looked up. We just shot over the top of them at about thirty feet above them because they had come up on this slight rise, this twenty foot rise from the, from the sand where the estuary started and I don’t know what happened to them afterwards. We didn’t drop anything or do anything nasty to them. They were probably French anyway. Not that that would have stopped me if I’d, if I’d had to bomb them but we didn’t have to bomb them. We just went along the estuary until we found the fuel oil tanks that we were going to do a bit of damage to. They were, they were used from time to time by submarines that’d sail up this estuary at night and fill up there. We were, this flight was in daylight of course. Beautiful day. No wind hardly. Blue skies. Not a cloud in the sky. A delightful day. I think I had my twenty sixth birthday that day so I got a nice birthday present. A nice trip to southern of France to the Gironde Estuary at fifty feet over the Bay of Biscay and we dropped bombs on it and I’ve got photographs of the, of the target area with a ship lying on its side. It wouldn’t have been our bomb because it was someone in front of me rolled the ship over with a bomb. He was supposed to bomb the tanks but he might have just bombed the ship instead. Now that was, that was August the 5th. I know that because it was my birthday the next day. No. August the 4th that’s right. August the 5th was my birthday. The second, the next day we, we did exactly the same route. Flew down to the south coast of England, turned right, almost to the south coast, and went down through Somerset and all those places to Lands End and off the end of Lands End at fifty feet, gradually taking it down to fifty feet as we got near Lands End. And this was the second day and we were all going hell for leather towards the er the Gironde Estuary as usual at a little town call Pauillac. P A U I L L A C. Pauillac. This was the second day and they were both, both in Pauillac but slightly different positions in Pauillac and we had ten thousand pounds of bombs on board approximately. Ten thousand five hundred pounds of bombs carrying on that one and it took us seven hours fifty five minutes altogether but as we were approaching the estuary out over the bay the rear gunner called up, ‘Someone’s going in.’ I looked around and there was a great splash of water still hanging in the air. One of the Lancs had dived into the, into the water but what had happened he’d collided with one of his friends from the same squadron. They were showing how close they could fly together which was the last thing they ever did. One of them survived but one didn’t. Anyway, on that, that, that occasion we, we didn’t go back to Kelstern because there was something wrong with the weather by the time we’d gone. To have two bright, sunny days over England in a row was a bit unusual and it was just the usual thing you know. It had clouded over or something. This was August. Well August can be cloudy or it can be very nice in England. Yeah but anyway it was too cloudy or foggy or something to land there so we landed at a different airfield, a place called Gamston. Gamston. That was a Wellington training base I think, at the time. Gamston. So they had a nice, nice long runway. One interesting thing happened with that. We had to just fly back to our base next door. We just had one night there sitting in chairs, sleeping in chairs, in the mess. Well the next day we returned, the weather cleared at Kelstern. Took us fifteen minutes to get from Gamston in the Midlands, more or less, to Kelstern in Lincolnshire and I remember taking off. I didn’t think, didn’t think of it at the time but we didn’t need to take off like we had nine thousand pounds of bombs on board at all. You know, we had very little fuel. See, that trip was a fairly long trip. Took us almost eight hours in the air and we didn’t have much petrol left when we got back and they didn’t fill it up. They said, ‘Oh you’ve got enough fuel to get back to’ [Gamston], or to ‘Kelstern alright.’ I just took off as usual and as usual was I usually took off in a Lancaster with about fifteen thousand pounds of bombs on it something like that and about two thousand gallons of petrol which I carried on a short trip and I just opened the throttles up and she lifted off, off the ground in about two hundred yards or less, a hundred and seventy, a hundred and eighty yards or something. Just floated up in to the air. I realised then that I didn’t need to open it up to full bore really. I could have probably opened up and we’d never been trained to take off a Lancaster when it was a light load. You were always shown how to take off in a Lancaster as fast as possible with the load that you’d got but of course I flew it a few times with only a light load and I knew what I was doing but the excitement of the trip and seeing the Lancasters behind us causing a great splash in the Bay of Biscay had changed, took my mind off what I was doing I suppose but up she went and we were home in about ten minutes or fifteen minutes I put down here I think. Fifteen minutes trip back to Kelstern. That includes landing it too. And that was about halfway through my tour but we kept going various places. Le Havre, that’s right on the French coast when they, they were trying to get Germans out of the forts that they had or buildings they had taken over in Le Havre which is on the coast of France opposite England. We bombed them in daylight of course. Half of my trips were in daylight. Sixteen. I did thirty two altogether. I did one more than I really needed to so sixteen night and fifteen day or something like that and I used to like the daylight ones because you’d look up and you’d see about two hundred spitfires and about a hundred something else, American fighters, sitting above you, about one or two thousand feet just above where you were flying so we mostly did our, our operations at about fifteen thousand feet. Frankfurt for instance. We did that at about seventeen thousand eight hundred feet. That was a good one. I liked Frankfurt. That was the night one of my best friends on 467 squadron, which is an Australian squadron near, near the town of Lincoln. Just south, south east I think of Lincoln. 467 squadron. I think you mentioned you had a friend in 467 squadron. Yeah, Bomber Command, 467 squadron crew. A relative of yours -
AP: Correct
AA: Flew. Right?
AP: Yeah. A few months before that but yes.
AA: Yeah. Yeah. So he was in March or April.
AP: May, it was.
AA: Yeah, 10th of May that’s right. Yeah, well I had this friend of mine in, in, in 467 squadron he was a deputy flight commander and he said they’re having a very rough time at the moment because people are getting shot down all the time including our flight commanders and they made him a deputy flight commander as a flight lieutenant which was one rank higher than I was. I was a flying officer but fortunately for us I wasn’t in a, in a squadron where they were having a lot of calamities. It was just a little less than average. I think it was because I think it was because it was a more disciplined squadron. The RAF was a lot more disciplined than the RAAF. Particularly the RAAF squadrons in England. They were noted for a bit of a lack of doing the right thing a lot of the time. I know they didn’t do the right thing by me because I visited, that Australian squadron, 460 squadron at Binbrook two or three times for various reasons. Sometimes to deliver a Lancaster there or bring one back from there. It was only about four miles from us because the, the, and the circuits interlinked so you had to be a bit careful that you didn’t fly into a 460 squadron Lancaster going in the opposite direction. But what I didn’t like about it I hung my cap, fortunately it wasn’t the round cap just the four and a half cap on the hook in the hall like I, in the, in the ante room like I did in my own squadron and I found someone had stolen it immediately. I wasn’t there that long. I just had lunch there. Took about half an hour. I thought I was doing alright. I go back and no cap. Well, I didn’t need it to fly a Lancaster because I had a flying helmet which I still had that in the, in the Lancaster or something like that but anyway you had to have a flying helmet. I hadn’t lost that. Just the ‘fore and aft’ cap. So I reckon the Australian squadron of [inclined] to be full of ill-disciplined, bloody thieves in a large, large section of them and that was, that was my opinion of the RAF as against the Australians like comparing the Australians were like a bloody Boy Scout troops except not quite so honest as the Scouts would be. And I didn’t like them. My, my old friend Dave Browne was, he had a bit of bad luck. He was, he got to his twenty sixth operation. I think they’d just made him a flight lieutenant, second in command of his flight and he did a couple of operations the same night as I did. I bombed Frankfurt September the, September the 12th 1944 Frankfurt and Dave Browne got shot down on that same night so it wasn’t much good him being a flight lieutenant and second in charge of the flight. It didn’t do him any good. Frankfurt. We bombed from seventeen thousand eight hundred feet and one thing I noticed about Frankfurt as we flew over it in a, in a sort of south easterly direction and came around, swung around to the left and flew back past it and you could look down and see Frankfurt and it looked just like Melbourne at night with the streets were all lit up but it wasn’t lights it was the burning buildings on each side of, of the street. Frankfurt was on fire that night and I set fire to most of it. Or a lot of it. Anyway, we had a good one on that. Frankfurt. Yeah. You probably think it’s a bit rough to think of burning people alive but it didn’t worry us. I’d seen, I’d seen Coventry in England. I’d seen Brighton. I’d seen a street in London where I used to go past and walk down part of. It was there from the first time I got to England in 1943, about July ‘43 and I’d seen this little street. Very attractive houses still intact and one night around about this time I happened to be in London again and it was a complete shambles. The Germans had sent up a special, special group of planes, probably not very many and bombed the hell out of it or it could have been those flying bombs I don’t know. Probably more likely to be that. The buzz bombs. They would do that. They were quite erratic. You never knew where they were going to land. I was in London when the first ones came over on leave. I looked out of the window of the hotel I was on the third floor of. A private hotel. It was the top floor and I heard this bop bopbopbopbop sound going across the sky. Just sounded just like my old motorbike. My 350 Calthorpe. Same sound except that there was this light at the back of it. My Calthorpe never had a light at the back of it. Oh it had a little red light you could hardly see but never had a big white glow at the back of it and it certainly didn’t go as fast as the buzz bombs but I can remember the anti-aircraft guns in London were firing at the thing but they never hit it and I could see what was happening. I could hear shrapnel starting from the, the exploding bomb started to land on the roof. I was up on the top floor and I could hear the things clang clanging on the top of the roof. Steel pieces from the, from the shells that they were shooting up at the flying bomb and not getting anywhere near it. I got under the bed for a while but I thought, ‘What will I do?’ There was no air raid shelter there so I just stayed under the bed till things quietened down and stopped firing. You could hear the guns going off as well as the buzz bomb flying over London. Everything went quiet after a while and I heard where it landed. It landed somewhere near a railway station up in er it would have been north east London a bit. North east somewhere. I’ve used that station afterwards when on my trips. I went, I did about half a dozen trips to, back to Europe, after the war, after I was married, with my wife and we went all over England and Scotland and Germany too. France and Germany. I liked the Germans. We got on very well with them. My last trip to Germany was in 1993, 1993 I think it was. We went with a group from the RAF association over in, it was in South Yarrow then. Frank. A bloke called Frank someone or other was the leader and apart from a lot of trips around England which we did which was very nice that included a visit to the Victory ship down on the south coast somewhere. We cruised, we visited the battle areas in France and then when we got to Germany we got to, I think we flew to Berlin and they had a, a small bus waiting for us and with two German air force pilots as drivers. One’s the driver. One’s the, one’s the navigator. Very nice blokes and they drove us all over middle Germany and East Germany, Not the north and not the very south either but the middle Germany. Berlin and then over to the French border where the southwest part of Germany is and they took it in turns to drive and navigate and when we got back to Frankfurt where I had done so much damage they’ve got a new, big new wide boulevard through the centre of Frankfurt. I knew the name of it at one stage but I can’t remember it now but they can thank me for putting that there. I removed a lot of old scruffy houses from a great strip in the middle of Frankfurt and they’ve got a big boulevard like St Kilda Road runs through it. Well, I did that, half the work for them. But anyway these two German blokes we got on very well with them and they took us to a couple of their airfields on the east border of Germany which used to be East Germany. It had just been changed, just amalgamated with West Germany in about 1995 or something like that.
AP: Before that. 1990
AA: 1990 was it?
AP: ’89 or – [? Just.]
AA: Oh that’s right ‘93 when I was there and the remains of the war were still there the West German wall but we went to the West German border somewhere near a town called Cottbus I think and there was a, air force station. They gave us a very good reception. Nice light lunch and so on and showed us the latest airplanes they had and we climbed all over the latest fighter the Germans had. In fact, the leader, the leader of the expedition Frank Wilson, that’s his name, he was a Lancaster pilot, he managed to get inside in the cockpit and wriggle the controls of one of them which was in the, in the hangar we were standing in. Then they did a bit of a demonstration flight for us. Low flying and a few aerobatics and so on.
AP: Beautiful.
AA: That was good. Then after that they drove us, the two blokes in this small bus drove us to the river which is the border I think between France and Germany on the west somewhere near the Rhine yeah it’s on the Rhine town Wesel W E S E L Wesel and we were taken as guests, honoured guests to a annual meeting of the ex-fighter pilots association.
AP: Wow.
AA: And they were all, had all these long tables in this room there with these pots of beer and they were singing songs, you know, bouncing these songs around. Our leader, Frank, he had to make a speech. He got up on the, on the stage and spoke to them and I suppose about three quarters of them would understand. They speak a lot of English in Germany and they were bouncing their big pots on the, on the ground and I turned back to the bloke next to me, he was German but he spoke English, they made sure we had a English speaking people sprinkled amongst our travel lot so we could ask any questions. I said, ‘What are they singing now?’ You know they were stamping their feet and banging their pots on the table, wooden tables and they said, ‘Oh that’s, “We’re marching against England.” ’ That’s what he said [laughs] and I said, ‘Oh, that’s interesting.’ Yeah and oh I got that plaque there from him, yeah.
AP: Nice.
AA: I got, we got a couple of pictures from him I don’t think they’re here. No. Mind your feet. I’ll just get the plaque down show you we got from him. From the opposition. There you are. How’s your German? Any good?
AP: Fair, Fair [?] it’s like an association of um fighter flyers associations.
AA: That’s right. Fighter.
AP: Yeah.
AA: They’re called flyers.
AP: [? ]That’s fantastic. I might take a photo of that later.
AA: Yeah. Well that’s come out its plug.
AP: Yeah that’s alright. It’s coming through the internal microphone now.
AA: Oh.
AP: Yeah, I couldn’t make it work so.
AA: That’s one of my favourite aircraft.
AP: Ah that’s an Anson.
AA: I used to like, I could fly them at night. Anytime. They’re good. Avro Anson.
AP: Yeah. Fantastic.
AA: And that’s the uniform we used to wear. That round cap beret with a sort of a what we called a goon skins they were, sort of one piece overalls and they used to try and make us wear them at, in mid-summer, at that place in South Australia where it was a hundred and eight degrees three days running and it was so hot you couldn’t sit on the metal beds inside the huts because they send they heat out more than the hut itself but anyway we talked, talked the boss into letting us wear shorts and shirts after a while. So, we weren’t so bad. And what else? On my last operation was on Cologne. Ah yes I, when I finished my tour in, here you are on, as a middle multi engine and that’s -
AP: above average yeah I read that.
AA: Well I got that for the Airspeed Oxford too but that was for being a good pilot but I think if you got back from thirty two trips he reckoned you must be above the average so he always gave that to someone who finished a tour which I did. Not everyone finished the tour. Old Dave Browne didn’t.
AP: Many of them didn’t.
AA: When my last operation was October the 31st on Cologne. What did we carry there? One four thousand. One blockbuster four thousand pounder and the rest in high explosive bombs but a lot of the times we carried about fifteen thousand pounds of bombs. Here’s one. Oh that’s fourteen thousand feet. Here’s another one thirteen, thirteen thousand pound bombs plus four five hundred pounders. Well that’s fifteen thousand pounds altogether which is about six and three quarter tons isn’t it?
AP: [?] yeah
AA: Divided by 2240 you get about six tons, six and a quarter tonnes. That’s a lot of weight you’re carrying and then there’s the petrol as well as that. Course that’s, that’s fairly high loaded. That was in Calais. We took part really in the invasion of Germany, of Europe. A lot of our work was supporting the, the British army. When they came up against a rather sticky situation they’d call for help from the RAF and we’d do a daylight trip on them so we wouldn’t bomb them instead of the opposition that they were complaining about and you know you killed a lot of Germans that way without killing any British. We never killed any British. We knocked off a lot of Frogs working with the Germans. Mostly in a little town just on the invasion coast. Where was it? [shuffling papers]. I don’t know. Another interesting thing was I’d flown over about eight different countries in Europe in a Lancaster. Eight. Including Sweden and Switzerland and Norway and Denmark and of course France and Germany and England and Wales and Scotland. I’ve been around in that Lancaster and that was a beautiful thing to fly. It was like flying, driving a Mercedes Benz. Beautiful. And probably your motorbike. Get as much enjoyment out of it except that that’s got a smaller engine than I had in my 350. Oh, yes, here you are. Have a look at this. There’s my motorbike.
AP: Oh fantastic. When’s that?
AA: Er that was -
AP: July 1938.
AA: ’38. I got that bike in ‘36. 1936. I wish I still had the damned thing. I shouldn’t have sold these things but I wanted to buy a car so I got a few shekels for that when I sold it, not very many and then bought a Singer Le Mans. A 1938 Singer.
AP: Fantastic.
AA: I haven’t got a picture of that but up there see those two top pictures.
AP: Yep.
AA: They’re of a car I had in England. That’s a Singer Le Mans. A nineteen, they’re both pictures of a restored, one’s been restored perfectly and the other is a lash up job um restored 1934 model Singer. Singer Le Mans because they did a lot of racing of Singer Le Mans and had a lot of victories and beat the MGs but then the next year in 1935 and, or ‘36 or something they had a lot of trouble with their brakes and they didn’t do any good at all but that, see that little black one.
AP: Yeah.
AA: In the corner? That’s the real one. That’s the one I had.
AP: That’s the one.
AA: In England.
AP: Was? As in this is when you were serving in England?
AA: Oh yeah. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. So, how did you get that car and what happened to it?
AA: Well it cost me sixty pounds. It was in the, just advertised in the local paper in Louth which is the local town for Kelstern and I just went along and bought it for sixty pounds. I had sixty pounds. We were fairly well paid and I didn’t gamble like, like most of my crew. They seemed to lose all their money but I never lent them anything. No. I was thinking if they’re going to lose their bloody money it’s their own fault. One of the blokes in the crew wanted to get married and he sent me a telegram. Unfortunately he wanted to borrow twenty pounds off me but fortunately I was on leave at the time so I never got that telegram until I got back from leave after his marriage day so that got me out of that. But that had two exhaust pipes like, like your bike out there but they just came out of one cylinder, one 350cc cylinder. Now, that was a beauty. One of the most thrilling experiences in my whole life and that includes Lancasters and anything, any other bloody thing was when I got that bloody bike.
AP: That motorbike. Fantastic.
AA: Yeah.
AP: Carrying on for a moment with the car. How did you fuel it?
AA: Oh we got an issue of four gallons a month if you were operational air crew. Well, I was an operational aircrew for six months because I was still on the squadron and I did four months actual, four months actual flying in Lancasters but then the CO decided to keep me on the squadron because I had an above-average rating for flying Airspeed Oxfords. Well, he had an Airspeed Oxford at his disposal and he used to like to go to visit other squadrons and perhaps his girlfriend’s town, I don’t know, and he like me to come along the next day, with a navigator of course, and bring him and bring him his aeroplane back and he’d fly it back. So he’d fly it to from Kelstern to Westcott or somewhere like that get out there at that airfield and I’d fly it back until I heard from him.
AP: That’s not a bad job is it?
AA: Well, he, he kept me on the station from the end of October, November, December till about half way through January doing that and he gave me a DFC for it. For being a good boy. Actually, most skippers of Lancasters if they completed a tour successfully got a DFC but he made sure I got one and I used to fly him everywhere. I even did a couple of trips to London with him I think. Or at least one anyway. And most of that would be around Lincolnshire somewhere and oh yes I had to investigate a crash on one occasion and I was, this was the first time I’d flown his Lanc, his Airspeed Oxford. We had to go to a station on the, on the south east coast, the south east coast of England, you know, and one of our Lancasters, it was a very bad night. Where were we bombing that night? I don’t know. Anyway, we were coming back from the middle of Germany somewhere and we were all told to fly over, over the top of a cold front that was approaching to get home again. As they said, ‘You’re going out you don’t have to worry about the trip to’ wherever you’re going ‘but when you’re coming back fly at twenty three thousand feet to get over the top of this electrical storm which you’ll run into.’
AP: Higher than that
AA: Well I was flying at twenty four thousand feet and it was very comfortable. We had a very nice bombing trip, killed a lot of nice Germans and we were flying back and there was no chance of the Luftwaffe chasing us at that stage because the weather down below looked pretty crook at times. It was nice and clear upside where we were until the rear gunner called out, ‘Hey skipper, my oxygen has gone out. I can’t get any oxygen.’ Well, he wanted me to say, ‘Well, oh well leave your turret and come inside,’ and I didn’t want to do that. I wanted the protection from him at the back as the most vulnerable side for us. The rear. The Germans liked to follow us up from the back. If possible shoot the rear gunner and shoot the rest of us and I said, ‘Look Ron.’ Ron smith his name was. ‘Look, I’ll take you down five thousand feet and that’ll get us down to eighteen, seventeen or eighteen thousand feet. You’ll be alright there.’ And he lived. I took it down to eighteen, seventeen thousand feet and we went through the top of this electrical storm. It worried me a little bit because it was pretty rough you know. The old Lanc was bouncing around a lot and fortunately we didn’t have any load on at this stage. We were empty. Just the petrol to get home and the four propellers each had a blue ring around the tip. You could see the big round blue circle around the tip and on the windscreen this little zigzag all over the windscreen. Sparks coming down the windscreen from the lightning. We were loaded. Loaded with lightning. However, we got past there. We got through it. It was a bit rough, you know. It was a bit bouncy but that didn’t worry me much. I was, I was more concerned about what the lightning was going to do. Whether it was going to get any worse than it was but we got back and he didn’t say much when we got back. I think he was reasonably grateful but at least he could breathe on the way home. He got out of there and plugged himself in to, no, he didn’t, he stopped in the turret. That’s right. I think what he wanted me to tell him to get out and plug himself in to one of the other outlets inside not in his, he was right in the back stuck in the glass with a big opening on the back so he could see clearly and er but he stopped there and he didn’t have to warn us that there was anyone else coming up behind us. I didn’t think there would be. Not through that storm. They would have, they would have corkscrewed into the ground I reckon if a fighter had tried to fly through there. It was bad enough in a Lancaster but that day, why I’m telling you that story, we lost a couple of Lancasters and one of them that didn’t come back they found it had dived into the sand, and into the sandy soil off the beach on the, in Norfolk somewhere and I was detailed by the CO with the knowledge that I hadn’t started flying him around to his girlfriend’s houses or anything at this stage but he’d seen the logbook. He used to read through everyone’s logbook. We had to put this in every month you see and he used to read everything in it. Better than reading the “Sporting Globe” I suppose but anyway he read that something like the same thing, you know, the competition the Germans and the British but we got, we got I was just detailed to fly this Oxford which I hadn’t forgotten how to fly to this American airfield on the, on the east, southeast coast there somewhere in Norfolk or Suffolk or, no, I think it would be Norfolk really but anyway we found the spot where the Lancaster had crashed and it had dived straight down apparently and the engines were twelve feet under the ground we estimated. Just an estimate by what was left of the Lancaster sticking up out of the back of it and as we were looking at er, looking at it a farmer wandered up and said to us, ‘Good day.’ He said, ‘There’s more remains over in the trees there.’ and I said, ‘Well, look we’re just inspecting the wreckage of the Lancaster. Someone else will be coming for the remains.’ So, I didn’t want to get stirred up with the remains of the, of the crew but that was his greeting to us, ‘there’s remains over in the trees there.’ So in, at the hit, Lancaster bits and pieces including the tree must have flown in every direction to have hit and got the engines that far underground. Must have been a bad one. It must have dived down from about ten thousand feet or something. Fifteen thousand. I don’t know. Twenty thousand. I don’t know but I was very glad we missed that thing ourselves but that was the closest thing I think we had to get into trouble. But no I’ve been to Poland twice. We went across the North Sea as usual. Across Norway. Now, this trip took about nine hours. Crossed in to Sweden which was neutral. As we got to the central of the Swedish, you know, it’s a long thing, goes up and down and I think the best parts are down low somewhere on the Baltic. Turned right there and headed south and on the way down the Swedes sent up a whole lot of Bofors shells but they only go to sixteen thousand feet. We were at about eighteen or nineteen thousand and it was a very pretty show actually. They come up in their bright colours reds and greens sometimes. Mostly reds. They used come up and you could see them coming up and bending gracefully over, starting to fall and blow up there. Bofors, 40mm but every now and again some keen type of Swede or someone who didn’t like the British, in the Swedish army, would send up a shot from a German 88mm high explosive shell but fortunately they were about four hundred yards on my left as I was flying south to Stettin in er in what is now Poland and I don’t think they hit anyone on that night but certainly I never saw them hit anyone there with their shells. I think they might have been trying though. As I say there was a keen type on the end of a German 88mm gun or a Swedish 88mm gun but that’s just the same sort of explosion as the Germans had at about, you know, we were at about eighteen thousand feet. And Bofors were 40mm guns which most of the Swedes were just sending up to let the British know that they weren’t allowed to fly over Sweden on the, in the rules, I don’t know what rules ruled most in those days but they let us know that we weren’t particularly welcome unless we had plenty of money to spend sort of thing. The Swedes used to sell steel to both the Germans and the British.
AP: But they were neutral.
AA: Well so did I. So were the Switzerland Swiss but we went over a corner of Switzerland at one stage. Where else did we go? I think they were the only neutral, neutral countries we flew over. I went to Stettin. That’s in Poland now. Used to be spelled S T E T T I N when the Germans had it. Now it’s spelt S C H E and something else, you know, Polish.
AP: A Polish name.
AA: Yeah.
AP: Makes sense.
AA: That’s about it.
AP: Were there any, I’ve got a couple, a couple more specific questions that I’d like to ask if -
AA: Yeah.
AP: If you don’t mind. Were there any hoodoos or superstitions with your squadron?
AA: No. There was no superstition. Just hope. Just hope that it doesn’t happen to you.
AP: Fair enough.
AA: Yeah. Oh no. We didn’t actually think about that much because we, when I look back I think we didn’t worry. We were used to going to town. Drink all the beer in Louth which was the local pub. I had a nice girlfriend, a WAAF, I used to go around with all the time. We used to go down to Binbrook in that black Singer. The black, the little black one in the corner there. It was the Plough Inn in Binbrook. We used to go down there and drink bottled beer. She liked bottled beer. I remember we went to, there was a dance in the sergeants’ mess. I wasn’t allowed to go. Officers weren’t allowed to go to that and I knew she was going to be there so I said, ‘Oh I think I’ll see you there.’ So, I borrowed the rear gunners, well he owed it to me for saving his life. I borrowed his, one of his spare tunics. He was a sergeant and I went along to the sergeants’ mess in it, just wearing the same blue pants that I normally had on and with his jacket on with the one wing and I’m dancing around with my girlfriend and the flight lieutenant um he was the orderly officer or something. He was, no, the squadron, the squadron something. He had some official position anyway. His job was to sort of get around and make sure everything was going all right and also collect the belongings of the people who got shot down, which happened from time to time. They used to come in at about 3am in the morning and wake me up while I was asleep and collecting all someone’s belongings. Which was, I didn’t like my sleep being disturbed like that. But what was he? Anyway, I got the job as assistant to him so that I could stay in the assistant, not orderly officer, some other name they used to use for this particular job and he used to, his main office was in the same little building as the CO’s office. And anyway, he said to me, he was allowed to be there because he’s the orderly bloke or the, what did they call him? I was, they actually made me the assistant something or other. I might think about it later. Anyway, I was being groomed to be in his, in his place when he went on leave in about three weeks’ time and we got on very well together and he looked across to me and said, ‘Ah,’ wearing my gunners uniform, ‘Ah Flying Officer Atkins,’ he says, ‘Are you enjoying the dance?’ I said, ‘Yes thanks, sir.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Oh well that’s good. I’ll see you in the morning.’ Well of course he didn’t give a damn anyway. If no one else complained he wasn’t going to complain. Fortunately, the boss, Cocky, the wing commander, wasn’t attending the dance. He was probably attending his girlfriends, girlfriend in the local pub. He used to have her stashed up in the pub at times because I, I was very friendly with one of the telephone operators and she used to tell me who he used to ring up. She just, oh that was the life. That was the one I used to take down to the Plough Inn at Binbrook and drink bottled beer with and of course it was mid-winter when I was visiting Binbrook. Very icy roads and where it went down in to a bit of a dip it was icier than ever. I remember we drifted down in to this dip, this girl and I, and only a two seater of course. There, you can see that. There’s only room for two people in those, those cars and anyway it did a complete, it slipped around did a complete circuit around this -
AP: Just like a -
AA: Black ice.
AP: Just like a Halifax.
AA: Oh yeah. Yeah but when it went right around with a Halifax I had to drive it around. This one spun around like bloody top on the ice. I must have pressed the wrong buttons or something. Anyway, we, we just drove out of it, drove out very carefully, very slowly. Drove out and parked in its usual spot outside the side of the Plough Inn in Binbrook village.
AP: Nothing happened to you.
AA: Good.
AP: You said the circuits with Binbrook and Kelstern interlinked.
AA: They crossed.
AP: Yeah.
AA: Interlinked.
AP: Were they separated in some way like levels or something like that? Or was it just a case of -
AA: No. We always used to do the circuit at a thousand feet and as far as I know no one’s ever said to me, ‘Binbrook’s going to be doing it at the same time.’
AP: Sounds a bit terrifying. I should, I should declare an interest here. I’m an air traffic controller so that sounds terrifying to me.
AA: Oh, well, if you saw a Lancaster operation that would be terrifying just to look at.
AP: I think you’re probably right. I think you’re probably right. What five miles?
AA: Talk about fireworks. My first navigator, I had him until about the middle of the tour until his nerve gave out. After he, after I, after the war I met the, my wireless operator a few times. A fellow named Trevor something. Trevor Jones. A very nice bloke and an excellent wireless operator. Never missed a beat. He got all the messages out and all, sent them all back as they should have and that had a lot to do with surviving. If there was a shift in the wind he’d know that. And this navigator was very accurate. We used to, I used to time it in minutes the time arriving at the target. I used to think back, ‘Now will these bastards be asleep or will they be open or will they be up having their breakfast or what will they be doing?’ And that would depend on whether I was there three minutes before the bombing started or about two minutes after it. After they’d, after they’d dropped their first few shots off and were loading their guns again. And he told me that when we were, every target we were over instead of, he used to say, ‘Tom,’ Tom was the navigator, ‘Tom, have a look out. It’s beautiful,’ you know. ‘There’s fireworks everywhere,’ he used to say. Well there were too. You’d see them going off. Red, green, blue, black everything. Mostly, mostly red and green. And the man in charge of the operation would be circling this town. Say it’s Stuttgart or something, circling around saying, ‘Bomb the greens, bomb the greens. The reds are too far south,’ or something like that and giving us instructions. Then, ‘Go home now,’ or something or, ‘Wait,’ wait till we get to bomb the markers in or something. That didn’t, fortunately, the waiting thing didn’t happen but I used to hear him say, and sometimes he’d just tell us to take our bombs home. He said, ‘I can’t see the target. There’s too much dust and smoke. Take your bombs home and return to base.’ That was very annoying because I liked to drop the bombs. I didn’t like to land with a load of bombs on but sometimes we had to land with six and a half tonnes underneath you.
AP: Of high explosive. Thanks.
AA: Well -
AP: Question I like asking pilots. Your first solo. What happened?
AA: What the, the first solo in what?
AP: Your first ever solo. So the Tiger Moth.
AA: Oh the Tiger Moth. I did a very good landing. That’s all I can say about it. It was nice. I was, I knew a lot about aeroplanes because I used to fly, you know, model aeroplanes. Light aeroplanes. You could, you would wind the thing up, run along the concrete path and rise up in the air. Little ones. I did that for five or six years when I was a kid. I was very interested in them so I knew what they did. I knew how you bent the wings and how you bent the tail plane to make them level and that helped me a lot. A lot of these blokes had never been in an aeroplane or never seen a toy aeroplane even and had certainly never driven a car half the time. This bloke Dave Browne who was a friend of mine I was going to go and visit him and show him my, my new car, new car [laughs] a 1934 model at, at that place near Lincoln. I don’t think he had a driver’s licence. He’d never had one. He was eighteen. Just eighteen when he, he would have been when he left school. He left school and joined the air force. Got on the reserve. Nice bloke. What question did you ask me then?
AP: First solo.
AA: Oh first solo. Yeah. Well there wasn’t anything special. I liked flying. I liked, I liked flying the Tiger Moth. I knew I could fly it alright. I knew just how to fly it. So when my first solo came up he said, ‘Ok off you go.’ I just flew it up and around exactly the same as I did when I was with him. Did just the one circuit and landed it without bouncing it unduly. Some people bounced those Tigers fifteen feet into the air.
AP: I’ve done it myself.
AA: Oh have you?
AP: I have.
AA: Oh God. Well I never did. I never bounced it more than a foot or two feet at the most I don’t think.
AP: I’ve had shockers.
AA: But er I, I have flown them since the war.
AP: Yes [that was my next question]
AA: But only with an instructor. In the, in the back seat I think the instructor was. The funny thing when we were under instruction on Tigers during the war I was in the back seat and the instructor was in the front.
AP: Yeah.
AA: Well, when I flew them for a fifty dollar flight or something I was in the front seat and it was a bit unusual and the instructor was in the back. I remember on one occasion I went up in a flight in a Tiger and I was talking to the pilot and the instructor first before we went in and said, ‘I hope you’ll let me have a go at flying this thing.’ and he said, ‘Oh, yeah. Well, have you flown them before?’ I said, ‘Oh yes. Yes, I’ve flown them plenty of times.’ He said ‘Oh? Where were you flying them?’ I said, ‘Oh at Benalla.’ ‘Oh Benalla,’ he said ,’Oh.’ He didn’t seem to know what the, Benalla was the, the head office for Tiger flying in the RAF, RAAF I mean, in nineteen, what would it have been? 1942, yeah when I was flying them in Benalla.
AP: Have you flown them much?
AA: ’42 ‘43 ‘42 ‘41
AP: Have you flown much since the war?
AA: Only in passenger planes.
AP: Yeah. [?]
AA: No. I’ve never flown anything except a Tiger Moth since the war but I have flown in the Concorde from -
AP: Oh lovely.
AA: From London to, my wife too with me, Heathrow to that big airfield near New York. What is it?
AP: JFK.
AA: Hmmn?
AP: JFK.
AA: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah and we were booked to fly in a helicopter from JFK to somewhere near the centre of New York and that was because we were doing a first class trip all around the world. I didn’t intend to do it actually do it first class but the way it happened I said, ‘Oh well first class will do,’ because they said it’ll only be about, what you’ve got to pay it will only be about five hundred dollars difference from flying first class all the way from Australia to around the world. So we went first class. I think the next time I we went first class too it wasn’t that bad it wasn’t that much difference to business class really. We used to fly business class mostly. I think we did six, six trips to England. First of all cattle class and then business class and then first class but Quantas’ first class was, it was the pits.
AP: Still, still more comfortable I imagine than a Lancaster.
AA: No. The Lancaster was very comfortable. I felt more comfortable in a Lancaster than I ever felt in a Quantas first class. Do you know where they put us? As close to the toilet door as that. The two of us. Right, right opposite the toilets. The blokes used to come in and out of the toilet doing their flies up and we were sitting, sitting there. Well that was the finish. I’ve never flown in Quantas since.
AP: Oh really?
AA: That’s right.
AP: There you go.
AA: You can tell them that. You can tell them as much as you like.
AP: I have one more question for you. It’s probably the most important one.
AA: Yeah.
AP: How, what do you think Bomber Command’s legacy is and how do you want to see it remembered.
AA: I think it will all be remembered by the people who were in it alright but well I think they’ve got this new place in the Green Park. That, that does a lot for them but I can understand why the people in, up the north decided to have a memorial. They’ve probably got relatives or sons or something or fathers or grandfathers who’ve been in it and they want to make a point of it. That they get remembered for what they did and you know the fifty thousand I think RAF types who got killed in Bomber Command. I think it was a figure something like that. I think it was about three thousand Australians in Bomber Command that were killed and I’m doing something to remember them in Melbourne. I’ve organised a new boat to be built by the rowing club in the city that I’m interested in and I’m putting David Browne’s name on it.
AP: [Beautiful].
AA: Instead of mine. They usually, if someone gives them a boat, they usually put their name on it. I had, I’ve given them a boat about twenty years ago, thirty years ago with my hard earned cash and I had my name on it. Arthur Atkins, on both sides of the point. Well they’re going to put David Browne’s name on it because he was a nice bloke. Well, that’s why I think the people in Lincolnshire are doing a good thing. North Lincolnshire? Where is it again? Where are they putting this memorial? Do you know?
AP: It’s, it’s within sight of Lincoln Cathedral.
AA: Oh.
AP: It’s on a hill. I don’t know the direction. I haven’t been there myself yet unfortunately.
AA: Ah yeah.
AP: But it’s on a hill within sight of the cathedral.
AA: That’s, that’s not in the freezing north of Lincolnshire.
AP: No. I don’t think it is.
AA: No. Well that’s where I was. Lincolnshire. Well Yorkshire was worse, of course. I drove my car from, all over England. Only one thing wrong with it. Oh well no, wrong, the most, the most, the worst thing that was wrong with it was the fact that it never had a hand brake and of course on one occasion the hydraulic main operating thing busted it’s rubber washer so I had no brakes and the funniest thing was I was going along a street and you know I just used to rev the engine and drop it down a couple of cogs if I wanted to stop it. Coming around, I came down the street like I was driving the car down here with just, fairly gently and I wanted to turn right here and just as I got turning right, you know, at about ten miles an hour or something a bloke with about four, four greyhounds were walking down the street crossed right in front of me.
AP: No brakes.
AA: No brakes at all and I wasn’t in a low enough gear to make any difference and I wouldn’t have time. So do you know what I did? I put my foot out like that and dragged it along ground and that stopped it. The foot stopped it.
AP: Like a motorbike.
AA: Eh?
AP: Like a motorbike.
AA: Well I had a motorbike once. I knew how to stop that. I knew what to do with that.
AP: Very good. Well I think that’s, you’ve been talking pretty well nonstop for two and a quarter hours now.
AA: Have I?
AP: That’s a pretty good effort.
AA: I’m sorry.
AP: No. That’s excellent. There’s some really good stuff in there. This, this is one of the easiest interviews I’ve said, I’ve done because I asked you one question at the start.
AA: Yeah.
AP: And then I sat back and just listened.
AA: Yeah.
AP: And it went. I timed it. It went for an hour and fifty before you took a break.
AA: Goodness
AP: So, thank you very much.
AA: No. I’m very, very interested
AP: Very, very much.
AA: In the air force and Bomber Command. I had a, it was the best job I ever had in my life was the air force. Especially the part when I was working for the RAF.
AP: Good.
AA: They were the real air force as they said. Not the Boy Scout air force like the RAAF.
AP: Fantastic.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Arthur Atkins
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Atkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia. As a Boy Scout, he experienced a flight in an aircraft and knew he wanted to be a pilot. He transferred from the army to the Royal Australian Air Force and started pilot training in Australia. He travelled to Britain in 1943, via New Zealand and the United States of America. After further training at various stations, he was posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. Among the operations he describes are leaflet drops over Chartres, the bombing of the Opel factory at Rüsselsheim, the Gironde Estuary, Le Havre, Frankfurt, Cologne and Stettin. He completed 32 operations. While stationed at RAF Kelstern he often visited the Plough Inn at Binbrook.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Purcell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Mal Prissick
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:13:42 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAtkinsA151121
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Australia
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Poland--Szczecin
France--Chartres
France--Gironde Estuary
France--Le Havre
United States
Germany
France
Poland
California--San Francisco
California
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
27 OTU
625 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
control tower
entertainment
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
promotion
propaganda
RAF Church Broughton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lichfield
searchlight
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/160/2365/PTolleyFS1502.2.jpg
25fccde4856f9fc14b4d995c702da51d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tolley, Frank
F S Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Frank Stanley Tolley (b. 1921, 1152777 Royal Air Force), his log book and four photographs. Frank Tolley was a Lancaster bomb aimer with 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. He completed 22 daylight and night time operations before the end of the war in Europe and also flew on Operation Manna, Operation Dodge and Cook's tours.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Tolley and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tolley, FS
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Frank Tolley's crew in front of a Lancaster
Description
An account of the resource
Seven aircrew standing under the nose of a Lancaster 'Y2'. All are wearing Mae Wests. Frank Tolley is wearing his chequered bowler hat.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph from a scrapbook
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PTolleyFS1502
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
625 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
flight engineer
Lancaster
navigator
pilot
RAF Kelstern
superstition
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/160/2366/PTolleyFS1503.2.jpg
31daaacb74060d472ae864134a516ac7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tolley, Frank
F S Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Frank Stanley Tolley (b. 1921, 1152777 Royal Air Force), his log book and four photographs. Frank Tolley was a Lancaster bomb aimer with 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. He completed 22 daylight and night time operations before the end of the war in Europe and also flew on Operation Manna, Operation Dodge and Cook's tours.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Tolley and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tolley, FS
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Frank Tolley's aircrew and seven ground crew
Description
An account of the resource
The aircrew wearing Mae Wests are standing under the nose of Lancaster 'Y2'. The ground crew are kneeling. Frank Tolley is second from the left on the back row.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph on an album page
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PTolleyFS1503
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
625 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bomb aimer
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
navigator
pilot
RAF Kelstern
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/160/2368/LTolleyFS1152777v1.1.pdf
c7db9254cabe25a1f53d8d80eb6653ce
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tolley, Frank
F S Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Frank Stanley Tolley (b. 1921, 1152777 Royal Air Force), his log book and four photographs. Frank Tolley was a Lancaster bomb aimer with 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. He completed 22 daylight and night time operations before the end of the war in Europe and also flew on Operation Manna, Operation Dodge and Cook's tours.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Tolley and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tolley, FS
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Frank Tolley's Royal Canadian Air Force flying log book for aircrew other than pilot
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Tolley's log book covers the period 29 December 1943 to 27 August 1945 and details his training schedule and operations flown. He served at RAF Fingal, RAF Malton, RAF Moreton-in-Marsh, RAF Sandtoft and RAF Kelstern. Aircraft flown in were Anson, Bollingbroke, Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He carried out 22 daylight and night time operations with 625 Squadron to the following targets in Germany: Bremen, Bremen rail bridge, Chemnitz, Cleve, Dessau aircraft factories, Dortmund, Dresden, Hamburg, Hanau, Hannover, Heligoland, Kassel aircraft factories, Lutzkendorf, Mannheim docks, Misberg oil refineries, Nordhausen, Nuremberg and Wiesbaden. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Russell and Pilot Officer Windrim. He also took part in Operation Manna supply drops to The Hague and Rotterdam, Operation Dodge and Cook’s tours.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LTolleyFS1152777v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
England--Gloucestershire
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Dessau (Dessau)
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Flensburg
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Wiesbaden
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Ontario
Netherlands--Hague
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-03-02
1945-03-05
1945-03-06
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-09
1945-03-12
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-03-19
1945-03-23
1945-03-25
1945-03-27
1945-03-31
1945-04-03
1945-04-04
1945-04-05
1945-04-18
1945-04-22
1945-04-29
1945-04-30
1945-05-03
1945-06-25
1945-06-28
1945-08-28
1667 HCU
21 OTU
625 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
Bolingbroke
bomb aimer
bombing
Bombing and Gunnery School
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Glatton
RAF Kelstern
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Sandtoft
RCAF Fingal
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2552/SMArshallS1594781v10107.2.jpg
a893a299ced8b276d881a60440263405
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2552/SMarshallS1594781v10108.2.jpg
ac7b646a56877cc88f53dbe37e30fd8d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/187/2552/SMarshallS1594781v10109.2.jpg
0bb05312b55e2c9d175e91265d9f1eae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marshall, Syd. Album
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Marshall, S
Description
An account of the resource
77 items. The album contains wartime and post-war photographs, newspaper cuttings, and memorabilia assembled by Warrant Officer Sidney Charles Marshall (1924 - 2017, 1594781 Royal Air Force). Syd Marshall was a flight engineer with 103 Squadron and flew operations from RAF Elsham Wolds.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Marshall and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-08
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Newspaper articles featuring 103 Squadron
Description
An account of the resource
Article 1 has a photograph of the nose of Lancaster Mike Squared, S for Sugar at Waddington, the dispersal hut at Digby and Barry Halpenny in the cockpit of a Spitfire with his book 'Action Stations'. The cutting mentions Douglas Bader flying from Digby and Clark Gable flying from Goxhill, Flight Engineer Sgt Jackson's fall and survival with a burning parachute and Sqn Ldr Barry Douetil who fell out of his Lancaster after it flipped on its back, the only crew member to survive.
Article 2 titled Scramble by Paul Croft has photographs of Lancaster 'Santa Azucar' with stick woman and halo. Six aircrew are posed under the port engine. There is a photograph of four ground crew on a fighter's tale , identity BE483 and two airmen running towards an aircraft 'AE-X' captioned at Digby.
Article 3 is a photograph of the memorial garden for RAF Elsham Wolds and is captioned 'Ex-airmen and their families and friends congregate for the service to dedicate the memorial garden'. It was published in the Evening Telegraph Wednesday, September 2, 1981.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Three newspaper cuttings on three album pages
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SMarshallS1594781v10107, SMarshallS1594781v10108, SMarshallS1594781v10109
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1981-09-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
103 Squadron
576 Squadron
bombing
Halifax
Lancaster
memorial
RAF Digby
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Goxhill
RAF Kelstern
RAF Waddington
runway
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/160/3631/ATolleyF150702.1.mp3
1f262a350f3520a97a72c9378cac3278
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tolley, Frank
F S Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Frank Stanley Tolley (b. 1921, 1152777 Royal Air Force), his log book and four photographs. Frank Tolley was a Lancaster bomb aimer with 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. He completed 22 daylight and night time operations before the end of the war in Europe and also flew on Operation Manna, Operation Dodge and Cook's tours.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Tolley and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Tolley, FS
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok. So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody, and the interviewee is Frank Tolley. And this interview is taking place at Mr Tolley's home in Sale near Manchester on the second of July, two thousand and fifteen. So, we've talked a little bit about what, what we er, want you to talk about, Frank. Perhaps if you could just start off with with you date of birth, and where you were born.
FT: According to my certificate I was born on the twentieth of July, nineteen twenty one, in Tipton, which was then Staffordshire, now West Midlands.
AM: Right. And what, what, erm, what was your early life like, what did your parents do?
FT: My father was a railway signalman. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, and er working at home. She er, she never went out to work after she married. Erm.
AM: What about family? Did you have brothers and sisters?
FT: I had three younger brothers, no sisters. I didn't know anything at all about girls. When, er you were growing up it was sissy to know girls in my day. (Laughs) How times have changed. No it was all pals. You were always kicking a ball around with pals, or using a bat or whatnot, or cycling. Yeah. Life was great, it was super. (slight pause) School-days. But, er, like most families in the twenties, we were very poor. Dad had to have his smoke, and his ale (unclear), and he was an ex-service World War One Royal Marine, but he received a pension because he developed pneumonia, and became unfit for duty any more, and he used to have his pension, his pocket money, and when he came home he'd turn over all of his wage to my mother, and she had to do the best she could with it. I well remember, I think it was nineteen twenty six or seven, the General Strike. I thought it was great having Dad at home all the time. We were on the coal banks picking coal, and I remember my mother crying on one occasion, and I learned later that Dad had been to the branch office of the union, and came back with a two pound bag of sugar and a quarter of tea, quarter pound of tea. That's all they had coming in for the week. But apparently my maternal grandparents subsidised us during the strike time. To add insult to injury, er, when my father went back he went back for a wage less than he was getting before. That, that's how it was, they came- it was the General Strike! Everybody seemed to come out. The miners started, but er, the miners went back eventually, they left the railwaymen holding the baby, so to speak, (chuckles) and that's – I'm repeating not from what I've read, but from what I learned and what I was told during that time, you see. Yep. And (pause) during that time I did get a place at Tipton Central, which became a grammar school. I only went there for three months, and my father was upgraded, but it meant that he had to move to another signal box which was a few miles away, and we moved out of Staffordshire into Worcestershire. My parents were ignorant to the fact that I could have had a transfer, so I went back to an ordinary school, and left there when I was fourteen. I had to go and get the first job I could to help the family exchequer, my mother. I wanted to go into an office, not realising that as an office boy all you did was lick stamps and put them onto er-, and run errands. The only job I could get, apart from going into a factory, and I didn't want to do that, was as an errand boy with a grocers. Fifty four hours a week for ten shillings a week. When you weren't developing er, delivering orders, you would be in the back of the shop working there, and I lifted – (background beeps and rustling of papers)
AM: So we just had a pause while there was somebody at the door, and Frank was talking about working at the grocers, so off you go Frank.
FT: And then I say, when you wasn't delivering your orders, one of the jobs I did was working at the back of the shop, lifting, I was fourteen remember, hundredweight casks of butter from floor to table. It's a wonder we weren't ruptured, yes, yes a hundredweight would be about er, fifty kilos. It's quite, er, quite a weight to be lifting at that time, cheeses were sixty pounds, and you had to (unclear). And then, another job was having a load of goods in a basket, put on my arm, and sent round side streets selling to women who was waiting for Friday to get paid, and I'd got to try and sell what I had in my basket. It was, it taught you how to work, but it was hopeless, I, I didn't like the job, and when I saw anybody from school, that had left, coming along, I would dodge down a side street because I felt ashamed doing the job that I was, a proper little snob, really (laughs). Because I wanted to do better than what I was doing, that was life's end, and sadly, very sadly, it was the war that gave me my, my opportunity. It was. Joining the RAF was like, er, university for me, met all types.
AM: So, what year did you join?
FT: Nineteen forty when I was er, just after I was nineteen. I would have been called up when I was twenty, but I had a hankering, because I was keen on photography, I used to print my own, and I thought it would be good to be an aerial photographer, not realising it wasn't manual any more, it could be done automatically, and all that, and anyhow, I joined the RAF, and became a ground gunner, and then, when the Regiment was formed, I was one of the founding members of the RAF Regiment. But I was with them for about eighteen months before I was accepted for flying, and er-
AM: What sort of things did you do in the Regiment?
FT: I hadn't got a School Certificate, you see, I didn't have a School Certificate, so I couldn't go directly for flying, but (slight pause) one night I was, in the Regiment, I was manning Hispano-Suiza cannon, the type they had in the fore-wing of the Spitfire and Hurricane, and Gerry passed over our airfield, which was near Nuneaton, it was called Bramcote, RAF Bramcote, to bomb Coventry, but they were too high for the range of this Hispano-Suiza, and next day I went home, hitch-hiked through Coventry, I lived on the West side of Birmingham, of course saw Coventry and saw how, how things were (unclear), and though, 'hells bells, if this war is going to be won, it's going to be won from the air'. That was my reaction. I wasn't being disparaging about the Army, or the Navy, but I felt that's how this war was going to be won. Went back, expressed my sentiments to the fellows in the barrack room, and said, 'look, we have automatic weaponry training, I'm going to see if I can become an air gunner'. And several others, three or four others said, 'that's an idea, we'll join you'. The next week, we went on the same afternoon, but separately, for interviews before the, er, the station commander, the squadron commander, the padre, and the education officer. And er, er, my colleagues, they were accepted straight away, and left the Regiment within three weeks, but they offered me, much to my surprise and delight, the PNB scheme that was to train as pilot, navigator, or bomb aimer. Jingo! If there's a chance of being a pilot, when the war's finished I'm going to be alright! That was me. So I gladly accepted that, apart from which, it was top rate of pay for (unclear). (chuckles) And, but, I had to wait over six months for my course to come through, and do you know that, it was just luck of the draw, my colleagues that had gone as air gunners, they'd all had the chop, they'd all been killed. These three of four of them, including my best pal, and he came from Walton in Liverpool, he was twenty one, and this was in nineteen forty three, and he can only have done three or four operations, (pause) from (pause) I have his memorabilia, which I've had from er, well memorandum actually, from the Imperial War Museum, from the computer there, and I've got the er, grave where he was buried, which was in Belgium, the grave row and number, and maybe this year, if I can, er, I'll go across there, put a British Legion cross, wooden cross on, on his grave. I can't remember the names of the others, but it's er, it's just how, how things were. And, er -
AM: So when you started your training.
FT: Yes, I went up to Scarborough for the, erm, initial training, which was groundwork, and learning the the, er, constellations, because we, we needed this later on, we needed to know the stars, and whatnot. And then, following that, went to an airfield near Carlisle to fly in Tiger Moths, twelve hours in Tiger Moths, but I didn't solo. Some did, some sort of got it very quickly, but I had some ear trouble, and I couldn't hear, and I was scared stiff to report this because I didn't want to be dropped off. And, anyhow, from there I came up to Manchester for the first time, went to Heaton Park, and there was a holding unit to decide what we would train for, be it pilot, navigator, or bomb aimer, and I, I knew it wouldn't be pilot because I hadn't soloed, And (slight pause) from there you went to Canada, or from, or to South Africa for your training, but the camp was chock-a-block with us cadets, and a number of us were billeted with local families, and I was billeted with a Jewish family in Prestwich. The first time I'd had any dealings with Jews, they were delightful people, thoroughly enjoyed it. Could be the fact that I met, was introduced to, one of the neighbour's daughters, and we palled up whilst I was there (chuckles). And anyhow, went to Canada. I couldn't tell my parents where I was going, but I, I said, when I went on embarkation leave, that, 'when I know, I will write to you, and put five ha'penny stamps on the letter if I'm going to Canada, or two penneth and a ha'penny stamp if I'm going to South Africa.' They had the letter with five ha'penny stamps on, so they knew where I was going. I was away for about five or six months, and do you know, whilst I was over there, I met a (slight pause) a physical training instructor, a sergeant, who lived in the same road as myself, he was two years ahead of me at school, two years older than me at school, and he'd been training over here in Manchester, paratroopers. He'd done quite a number of jumps himself, and so they just sent him across to Canada, for a break, I suppose, doing two years over in Canada, as a physical training instructor. And he was shopping, as I was, when we met, for his, his daughter, who'd been born just a week or two after he'd got over to Canada. And I said, 'well, I'll be going back shortly, I'll take those back for you'. Because, his brother worked for the same company as myself, and this I did, I took them for his wife. Later on, another coincidence, when war had finished, to find us something to do before the squadron stood down, we went over to Italy to bring troops back for demob. They'd come back with us in three hours, or by land and sea in three days, and some of them had been out there for years, and I suppose they thought, 'well we've come through all this, we might just as well finish off going with these, with this crazy bunch', and we could put in twelve, lying down in the fuselage, and we left one gunner behind, and took one with us to hand out the sick bags. And I would have a couple of them coming into the nose, give them a break, let them see just what happened, because I had a good viewing in those-, upwards, sideways, and downward, so yes, so they liked that. But the first time we came back, I remember, one chap must have had it blooming hard, because once he got out, as soon as he got out of the aircraft, he kissed the ground.
AM: Yes.
FT: Yeah, yeah, was so touching to see.
AM: So glad to be back. Tell me a bit about the training in Canada, what was that like?
FT: Oh, (unclear) I went first of all to (pause) Pingo. On the north shoreline of Lake Erie to do bombing and gunnery. Did bombing in Avro Ansons, and the gunnery in Blenheims. And then did navigation, went to No.1 AOS, Air Navigation School of the Canadian Air Force, in Malton, that was near Toronto, 'Torronno', they called it, Toronto, and we did, I think about six weeks of a navigator's course, you know, just in case the navigator went for a burton then you'd be able to muddle through (chuckles), probably. But the only navigation that I did was when we went to, over to Italy, in the daylight, and give our navigator a rest, let him take a view all round. I, I navigated us there. But there were times when I had to go into the astrodome that was between the pilot's cabin, er, the pilot's area, and the mid upper gunner, which you saw there, and I would have the astro compass with me, and I would take, and this is where you learned about the stars, the different constellations, I would take a shot of two stars, and the readings on the compass from those two stars I would pass down to the navigator, and providing I'd given him the names of the right stars for him to check, and my readings were correct, he would then plot them onto his Mercator chart, and where the cross was, he would relate that to the cross that he'd got, to see just how near, or how far, he was away, and, you know, that helped sometimes. On one occasion we had the scanner knocked off, and, I think that was on Cologne, and that was a bad night, we lost, we lost three from our, our airfield on that occasion (pause) quite a lot, (pause) lost that night, it seemed as though the Germans knew every turning point that we made, and our gunners had to call out whether they saw aircraft shot down, for the navigator to plot, but they were calling through so many that the pilot said, 'don't call out any more, the navigators got enough to do to get us there'. That's how it was. And weaving and doing, we weren't lost, so to speak, we were unsure of our position. And then suddenly, I saw lights ahead, and I said, 'bloomy, we're coming over Switzerland, and they opened a token barrage at us, not, not to hit us but to show that we were over their territory, and the navigator gave a general direction course from that for home, and daylight broke before we crossed the coast in France, and I was able from my maps, I was able to give the navigator a pinpoint, and he just, 'alter course, only very slightly', to the pilot, and he brought us (pause) over-
AM: He brought you home.
FT: Yes, yes. Aye.
AM: Just going back to the training, you did the training in Canada (FT agreeing in background) to be a bomber, you did some navigation, but the bomb aimer training. So what was that like, the bomb aimer training part of it?
FT: Oh, well it was very much hit and miss. The bomb sight that we had there was the -, not a patch on the one that we used, that's because it was a computerised one that we had before. And er, there was a bigger barrel on the er, aiming, er, in every target area, and you went with the bigger barrel, and if you hit the bigger barrel or you-, that was it. But nobody ever hit the bigger barrel. (chuckles) We got near to it at times. It, it was fun. It just gave you some idea, and you were firing on, at a drone that was being towed by another aircraft, you see, and there were several of you firing at the same drone, but you, you had different er, coloured, er (pause) the bullets were painted or something. Anyway, they knew from the colour of the surrounding holes who'd fired, do you see, and how they, they related your proficiency as a gunner. Not, we only did this to be able to operate the guns. But, I had to on one occasion, not to operate, I had to take the place of our rear gunner. He was a bigger fellow than I was. His, er, he wore a heated jacket, you plugged it in, as I could in the nose, because there are two cold places. His went for a burton on one occasion, and he passed out. We couldn't make any contact with him at all. But I had to go down, get him out, bring him up, and fill him with coffee and get him thawed out, but I had to take his place for a couple of hours. Oh, was I glad that I wasn't an air gunner. You swung to port or to starboard, and your back was exposed, and up there between twenty five and thirty thousand feet,
AM: Cold.
FT: Oh, blooming cold. Be alright for baling out, I suppose, but oh, it was cold and so cramped, too.
AM: Especially if he was bigger than you.
FT: He was, yes.
AM: When you got to the end of your training, what happened then, then, you, how, you came back from Canada?
FT: Yes, yes, came home from Canada, and went to advanced flying unit, you know, to be, er, flying again in Ansons for er, (pause) bombing, er, going on to do bomb sights, and the navigators were there as well, doing navigation exercises and whatnot. And I was operating a camera then, a hand held er, to er, we would be told to photograph at a certain position, and I have several photographs. Some a mile away, some dead on, which was quite good, was important to everybody that er, were able to read the maps, to er, sufficiently to get on that right spot. So that was good. And er, our pilot, after he left us, he got the DFC for er, because we had some good bombing results. But er, (AM interrupts) the pilot and I, we met, after advanced flying unit, we had to go to operational training unit, OTU, and the pilot and I, we arrived within minutes of each other. He was then a warrant officer, and I was still a sergeant, and he and I were put into the same nissen hut. Nobody else in there, we were chatting away there for half an hour. So, we seemed to be getting on. He was an Australian, he'd been over here for a little while, he'd been flying, I forget what, aircraft that they trained the radio operators in, so he'd done quite a bit of flying in this country. And we seemed to get along quite okay. He was a bit younger than me. And he said, 'we'll be queuing up tomorrow,' and then in the next breath said, 'would you like to be my bomb aimer?' And you know, 'why not?', I thought, so I said, 'yes', because we seemed to get along quite well, and I suppose he thought I was okay, and I thought he was okay. Next morning, I was (unclear) around, and he went out and he er, met the gunners, who'd trained together, and the radio operator, and navigator. The navigator didn't stay with us, only for one or two trips, he was a bit behind, so he was given more training there, and we collected a navigator who'd like-ways been in his position, but he was alright, was Bill Porter, we got along quite well with him. He, his home had been bombed down in Essex. Anyhow, we crewed up and did bombing and navigation operations, training from Moreton in the Marsh, and then we moved, we were flying then in Wellingtons, and that's where I, er, handled the aircraft. I would have to have taken over if the pilot had gone, though goodness knows what would have happened, but that's how it went. But when we went to the conversion unit, to go onto four engines, we did just a couple of circuits and bumps in a Halifax, and then they decided er, because they had some Lancasters come in, that we go on to Lancasters, which from the pilot's and my point of view was a much better proposition, that we have to get on to the Lancs. And there we picked up our flight engineer, and with four engines you needed to have a flight engineer, and he was very good. He'd got it almost to a pint, the amount of fuel you had. But he was also a pilot, he was one of these surplus to requirements towards the end, and so a number of them were sent to St Athens(?) to do a flight engineer's course. He was a bit uptight, a bit upset about that because he'd trained to be a pilot, and he wanted to be a pilot. But in doing that I would have been likewise, but it so happened that he had to be er, a flight engineer. But on one occasion when we were still flying dual controlled aircraft, after our pilot had been passed as being okay, we were flying around and Bruce let (pause), I forget his name.
AM: It's gone.
FT: Jo! Jo Platt, land it. He was there ready to take over, but Jo Platt made a perfect landing. 'Oh, thank heaven for that. Hope neither of them get, get done, because I wouldn't want to be taking over on a big aircraft like this'. But, we were alright. We were hit on a couple of occasions, like I say we had the radar scanner knocked away, which may have saved our life, our lives, on that occasion. That was when we went to (pause) Nuremburg
AM: Nuremburg.
FT: and we got lost on the way back. And so the (pause) Jerry, because our scanner had gone, he couldn't track on, on to you. Apparently, what happened when we had the H2S working,
AM: The H2S?
FT: Yes, H2S that was called, that was the forerunner of the television and computer, yeah.
AM: Okay
FT: So, getting (pause) Jerry used to track on that, and so to counteract that, in the nose, I used to have bundles and bundles of tin foil to drop through the window chute to scatter about, and it blocked, it blocked their readings, you know, and stopped them tracking us. You know, imagine all these pieces of tin foil, they'd be about so long, and be about that wide, and be opened and scattered, you know, it reminds one of the, er (pause)
AM: So Frank was showing me how long they were, and they were about twelve inches long and a couple of inches wide.
FT: No, they wouldn't have been a couple of inches wide
AM: Less than that, an inch.
FT: This is, it certainly did the trick, dropped through the window chute. We used the window chute firstly because other than that when you needed to go to the loo, you had to go down, and it was situated behind the pilot's, er, behind the rear gunner's place, but we up front, we carried a jam tin, and we used that, and it would be passed down to me to pour down the window chute, otherwise, you see, you'd have to er, take off your oxygen, and take your oxygen bottle down with you (chuckles) it was all very crude compared to today’s flying, sort of thing. But it did us alright. But I did see the result of a miracle on one occasion, we, we'd been debriefed from one raid, we were going off to the mess, and a crew comes in and the bomb aimer is carrying his parachute, and it's torn to ribbons. He had a piece of flak about that long, with the widest part about like that. He'd clipped his chute on, as he always did before a bombing run, leaning over the target, er over the bomb sight, and this had come through, hit him in the chest, (unclear) at the foot of the pilot's controls, and he wasn't marked at all, yet it had torn his chute to ribbons, and he, you know, he was just (unclear) hanging with his (unclear) and they said, with this piece of flak. But his crew, they were going on leave the next day, so I suppose the rot set in, you know, the shock, when this thing hit him when, when he got home, but it's amazing how these things happen, 'cause another crew, on another occasion, brought their bomb aimer, he, he, he had the chop whilst they were up there. But they brought him back, they didn't drop him out. They brought him back. Yes, it was-
AM: Just going back to, you finished your training, you crewed up, you got your pilot, your whole crew (FT agreeing in background), so what squadron did you-?
FT: Six two five
AM: You were in six two five, where was that based from?
FT: That was over in (pause) Kelstern, that was the satellite airfield from Binbrook, Binbrook was the main one. Oh, it was very hard there, the sleeping quarters in the nissen hut was, oh, a good half hour away from the airfield, and the (pause) briefing and debriefing room, and the mess and whatnot (background noises, lawnmower)
AM: I'm just going to-. Okay, we think the strimmer's gone, so we'll continue, so erm, you're in Binbrook, in the nissen huts.
FT: We weren't in Binbrook, we'd like to have been in Binbrook
AM: Oh. You were in the satellite to Binbrook.
FT: Yes. It was very, very hard, in fact we had, we ran out of food, they hadn't even got food to us because er, vehicles couldn't bring food to us and we were there on the airfield trying to dig snow away for the runway, but to no avail, there was far too much, and as I say, we had to have food dropped to us, bread never tasted so good (chuckles). But it was, it was alright, but, you know-
AM: Did you fly your first oper-
FT: We did, we flew- we, we went, we joined the squadron in January forty five, and it wasn't until February the first that we flew our first operation. We had been, er what, er, briefed about eight or nine times and er, (papers rustling in background) I think the second, the second of February when we did our first op, but from my log book I'd copied, I'd lost this, and I found it again, and I've two more, more sheets describing the operations.
AM: So these are some details of the operations that you're showing me now, Frank.
FT: Yes, and-
AM: Might try and get a copy of that afterwards, if that's okay
FT: Oh yes, I can get copies on there for you, but you will see Dresden on here, if I can find some specs (long pause), yeah, here you are, Dresden. Gives you an idea. That was nine hours ten minutes, that flight, and the next night eight hours fifty minutes we went to Chemnitz. From the time of taking off at er, ten to ten at night for Dresden, and returning from Chemnitz , landing from Chemnitz, that was thirty three hours, which is eighteen hours flying in thirty three hours, and the rest of the time we, we'd been to bed, we'd been had three meals, we'd been debriefed from Dresden, and briefed for Chimnitz, but there was no aircrew medal for us.
AM: No.
FT. No, no, we had the France-Germany one which whether you were in action or whether you were desk-bound, or whatever, and desk-bound were people were needed, of course, in Germany, in France and Germany as well as those in action, but there was no distinction, but what happened, last year the Prime Minister decreed that aircrew that didn't receive the Aircrew Europe Medal should have a clasp with Bomber Command on it to go on the thirty nine forty five star, which happened, the er, the fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain, they had a similar clasp to go on the same ribbon with Fighter Command on it, and that, that was just to show that we were aircrews.
AM: Indeed. You were showing me some of the operations that you went on, there, Dresden and, how many operations did you do?
FT: Er, twenty two bombing, but I bombed on twenty occasions, not twenty two, and er, did Operation Manna, did four of those jobs.
AM: Yeah. Tell me about the difference, then, between the bombing runs and Operation Manna.
FT: Oh, it was such a relief after all the bombing to be doing Operation Manna. Sadly, it had to be done, they were dying in their thousands, and the Germany commander of the Western province knew it was all over bar the shouting, and he accepted that a truce be arranged so that we could go over there unmolested with the bomb bays full of food parcels to drop at different points. And, this was fixed for the first of May nineteen forty five, but they were so desperate, as I say they were dying in their thousands of starvation, that the RAF went on the twenty ninth and thirtieth of Feb-, of April, before the truce was official. And we flew at between three hundred and four hundred feet across the North Sea to er, well the first two drops er, before the truce, was in the Hague area, and my crew, we did another two after that to Rotterdam, but we went on leave then, so we, we, we didn't do the eight. The Americans went on the first of May, and they, er, they dropped six thousand tons in six drops in from Flying Fortresses, and we did seven thousand and twenty tons from, from Lancasters in eight, eight drops. And the story goes that the Americans, when they programmed this, they said they were the first to drop food to the Dutch. When I heard this I thought, but my log book proved that that was wrong, and I thought, 'no mate, but they were right'. Maybe they were the first to drop food to the Dutch once the truce had been signed, but we'd been twice before, but that was not mentioned in their programme (chuckles). I can't say, 'because they didn't know', because both forces knew what the others were doing, sort of thing. (unclear) Dresden, because they realised what had happened, what we'd done, the Americans went the next morning to bomb nothing there, just to be part of it.
AM: That was the Dresden bombs that you're talking about.
FT: Because there was no doubt about it, it was a genocidal raid, er, they say twenty five thousand were killed on that one night.
AM: Did you think that at the time, Frank, or were you, at the time you were just doing your job?
FT: Well when we, yes, when we went over there on that one, it was just one, I think we were third wave, it was just one mass of fire and flame, and the master bomber, I remember he called to us, 'overshoot five seconds'. That's a thousand and one, a thousand and two, that's how you got your five seconds. Didn't use the bomb sight, you just released them. He'd have done better just telling us to scoot off, go back. But, I tell you, twice we didn't bomb. On one occasion we went to (long pause) Breman, I think it was, on army support, and as we approached them it was ten tenths cloud, and when we got into the area the master bomber was calling us down, there was about three hundred of us, I was scared stiff, he was calling us down, so we could-, it was on a daylight, we couldn't see each other going through cloud, and I liken it to driving a car at sixty miles an hour, nose to tail, in fog (chuckles). That's how it seemed to me. Oh, I was glad when the master bomber called, 'Return to base'. We couldn't break cloud-base, and we didn't want to be doing as had happened on another occasion before, friendly bombing, you know, er, bombing your own troops, or your own people, so the master bomber said return to base, and we returned to base with er, landing with full bomb loads.
AM: With full bomb loads?
FT: Yeah, but you see, we hadn't, we hadn't got into the target area for me to do the necessary, so the pins were still stuck in the fuses. Yeah. But, er, there was that time, another time, when I said I wasn't bombing. That was in Nordhausen and we went to Nordhausen where the Germans had built, underground, a factory to replace the one that Bomber Command had bombed out at Peenemunde, where they were making the V1 and V2 rockets.
AM: Yeah
FT: And when we got over there again it was ten tenths cloud, and there were no over (unclear) target markers by the er, pathfinders. As I say it was another daylight, but bombs were being dropped everywhere, and I called the pilot, I had got everything ready, like before, 'I'm not bombing'. Because we'd been debriefed, we'd been briefed to the effect that there was a prisoner of war camp nearby, and I thought, 'hells, if any of our chappies had baled out, and been put into there'. I didn't want our bombs to be killing them, so I called to the pilot, 'I'm not bombing, it might be friendly bombing'. But the navigator called, 'oh, I've got it here on H2S'. So the pilot called to him, 'alright, bomb from your desk', which he could in case I'd gone for a burton he could, he, he had a pair switch there to enable him to get the picture on, on his apparatus, and release the bombs from there, which he did. But we found later that it wasn’t a prisoner of war camp, it was a slave labour camp, which was the same thing, you didn't want to be killing them. Anyhow, we failed to er, break through to hit this, this factory, but, and this probably explains why we did so much blitz bombing after that one, papers released since depict that the war would be going on another four months, Germany would have obliterated London with these rockets, and Oxford, where, which was never bombed, Hitler didn't intend having Oxford bombed, that was going to be the, the, er, German operating headquarters in this country, and they reckon that if the war had gone on for another four months Gerry would have got here with smashing London. There. So. That's why Bomber Harris, I suppose, did try getting the, demoralising the people. But we did such a lot of slaughter toward the end, there's no doubt about it. They, they weren't all military targets. No. And it er, (unclear), but you never forget about it. If you didn't talk about it, it would probably drive you round the bend. Fifty years after the war, my grandson er, Paul, up in Scotland, wrote to me from his school, said they were doing a project on World War Two, would I help him? Wrote back, 'alright Nick, how?'. His other grandpa had died by that time. And er, he sent me a list of questions, which I have somewhere, and among them was one, 'What do you think about killing people?' 'Gosh, Nick is that your question, or is this being asked by a teacher?' …. My answer to that was, 'Nothing. Until much later. Until after your father was born'. His father being my elder son. When I get something on my mind I tend to resort to poetry, I wrote him some poetry, and you've got a copy of it, haven't you? That's why er, that was written, just to enable him to understand.
AM: Understand. I'll copy that, the poem. To go with the tape.
FT: Well, I've got (microphone noises) something on the, on, on the Wellington.
AM: We're just having a look for Frank's poem. (Background noises). Here we are, we've found one, so I'll bring this with the tape. Or a copy of it. I can't see it without my glasses, Frank. (chuckles) I'll read it in a moment. (Pause) Do you want to read it out? For the tape?
FT: Yes. “Fifty years after World War Two my eldest grandson enquired of the part I then played, and What Did I Think About Killing People? Replying to this I recalled in nineteen forty I joined the RAF, not for a laugh, or for fun, but because war had begun. One who dared, I was scared. Up there in the sky, hoped I would not die. Later, in a Lancaster bomber's nose, looking down for the target markers. There! To port, the target's lit. Skipper and engineer see it too, and the aircraft's course is altered by ten degrees. I call, 'open bomb doors and report. Still too far to starboard. Left, left. Left, left'. And again, 'left, left. Keep it steady now. Steady, Steady'. With target on the bomb sight's cross, so, pair switch pressed, bombs all go, there below it's all aglow. When I call, 'close bomb doors', all the crew seems more composed. When navigator directs skipper, 'change course. Compass, three twenty degrees'. Now we're returning to base. Will a fighter give chase? Will there be more flak? All crew hope, maybe pray, we will again see Lincoln Cathedral when night becomes day. No thought, or prayer, for those we've killed, until much later. Only that another operation has been fulfilled. Then, at last, the war is over, and the thankful feeling that life is now a bed of clover, and I am proud to become a father. But, now for 'until much later'. Thoughts return of targets bombed, and wondering how many children, how many mothers did we kill in our participation to eliminate the Nazi ill.” That's what it was. (Pause) Don't. I'll sign this one for you. In (unclear) pen?
AM: Yeah. (pause) So it was much later that you thought about it?
FT: Yes, it was er, um, three or four weeks afterwards, you know, you couldn't, couldn't say much in reply to that, but I must find, I must find the other, see I've got here, one of three. It's (paper rustling), some of the information I've got notes, it's not all out of my log book, as you'll see at the very end of the last one, it's, er, it'll tell you how many aircraft were lost.
AM: Yeah.
FT: But I'll have to turn up the others and let you have a copy...
AM: Yeah, we'll copy all those afterwards
FT: of all three, yeah, yeah.
AM: So the war ended,
FT: War ended, thankfully. And then to find us something to do before we stood down we went across to Italy, er, er, to bring troops back, and the first time that we went over there (slight pause) I, erm, I, I, I navigated so the navigator could have an overview of the place. We went to (pause), we were billeted overnight, well for two or three nights, in, in the first instance, er, just outside of Naples, and on one occasion with two of the crew, I went sightseeing around Garibaldi Square, and went up into the Palace of Naples, and coming down the steps, three ATS girls were walking up, and lo and behold one of these was one that was with me at Sunday School years ago. That's how small the world is. But I'd also met her hitch-hiking between Coventry and Rugby when I was in the Regiment. This Army van pulled up, and give me a lift, and when I got in there was several ATS girls in, and she was one of them there. So for her I brought one or two things that she'd bought to take home to her parents. She lived about half a mile from my home. Yeah. (chuckles) How small is the world?
AM: Small world. What did you do after the war, Frank?
FT: I went back to the old company, where I could get a couple of quid more a month there than anywhere else, and it was, my pay, was less than half what I was getting in the RAF two weeks before. (Laughs) But, that was my experience of recession, but the fact was you'd come out all in one piece, probably fitter than when you went in, and that was a, a great compensation. But it took me about four years to catch up with those that had stayed behind. But they were very helpful, I was helped a lot. When I went back, then eventually they decided they wanted someone to come and develop sales up in the North West, and so I was given the opportunity to so do, which pleased my wife well, because she came from Warrington, and she couldn't believe we were coming back north. She'd moved down to the Midlands.
AM: When had you met your wife, Frank? Did you meet her during the war?
FT: Yes, yes, yes. When, er, when I had to come to Manchester, she and I, we had a mutual friend in Birmingham, and Mary said, 'Oh if you're going to Manchester, you must go across to Warrington and meet Bettie', which I did two weeks before I went to Canada. I wrote to her, as I did to other people I met along the way. And the er, (pause) for female cousins and girls that I knew I brought fully fashioned stockings back for them, with what little money I had. But I, I didn't have a pair to give to Bettie, and so she had nothing, and Bettie was the last one that I met, sort of thing. But, er, she came down to our mutual friend's one weekend, and we met up with her in the, in the, er, Mecca one Saturday evening, dancing, and we, we got along quite well, and the thing is, she said, 'Come up, come up next weekend'. Which I did. Because the first time I went, to her home, she was out. She'd gone to stay with, er, she'd gone to visit her friend from school, who was born, they were both born, in that house. There, that thatched cottage.
AM: Frank's showing me a picture on his his wall of a thatched cottage.
FT: yes, yes. That was the school house at Whinney, a little village just outside of Warrington, and at that time, when my wife was born, it had become split into two, one family lived in one part, and another family lived in the other. And my wife was born on the one side of it. And she'd gone to visit her friend. But my father in law, I would say, thought, 'Here's a likely looking fellow here, I'll get rid of one of them'. So he gets on his bike and goes to her, and she comes back on the bus, and I'm absolutely amazed, this big family, they, there were nine of them there, one was missing, she was in the Land Army, she was, er, that was Audrey, who came next to Bettie, Bettie being the eldest. The eldest of eleven. One, Rowena, died at six months when she caught measles from the triplets (chuckles), yeah, my mother-, my late mother in law had triplets among these eleven children. And in the triplets, the middle one, was Derek, he was the only boy of eleven (chuckles). But they seem to have got it so well organised, at the, at the, I had tea with them and everything was so, so well organised, and at times when it wasn't so at camp, I would refer, I would say, 'it needs the Deans here to get it organised'. 'Who are the Deans?' and then I'd have to go into the story and telling of this amazing family that I'd I'd met in Warrington. (laughs)
AM: Your wife's family.
FT: Yeah.
AM: I think we can't end the interview, Frank, without you telling me about the Imperial War Museum. And the zip wire.
FT: Oh, the zip wire (laughs)
AM: Tell me about the work you do for the Imperial War Museum North.
FT: Yeah, (unclear) I was going to a veterans meeting, and I saw what they were doing, and they had several volunteers with whom I spoke with, and they thoroughly enjoyed going, and so I decided I, I, I would help, because they were still after volunteers, and I go, normally, every Wednesday morning, not every Wednesday, but most Wednesday mornings. Sometimes, on other occasions, when needs be, and I generally work in the, on the ground floor, with the computers, on the computers there. Yes, I find it very good indeed. But (slight pause) a while ago, my church, it was (pause), the church hall roof, it was found, needed to be replaced, and the cost for this was going to be forty thousand. So how are we going to get the money? We started fund raising, and it so happened that at the Imperial War Museum they were having a wire erected from the top, right across the er, Manchester Ship Canal, to the Lowry Theatre. They'd done this two years earlier, and I was on voluntary duty on, at that time, and I was so fascinated by it I said, 'oh, what's the age limit?' 'Oh, there's no age limit. Two years ago we had a fellow who was eighty nine'. And, 'oo, I could do it then?', and he said, 'yes, if you have forty five pounds', which I hadn't. So I said to him, 'well, I'm a volunteer here, could I not do it as publicity for the museum?' 'Oh no, no'. Anyhow, about ten minutes later they came after me and said, 'yes, we've decided that you can do it'. So without any more ado, I just did it. And so I became the oldest, at ninety one, to have done it. And then I thought that this would be an idea for fund raising, so I reported at church that I would do this for a fund raising exercise, and so far I've raised, I think it's over three thousand-
AM: Three thousand pounds
FT: Yes, yes, from doing it again. But I didn't tell people that I'd done it before.
AM: So you've actually done it twice then? When you were ninety one, then again this year.
FT: Yes, yes, you've seen pictures-
AM: I was there, Frank. I watched you come down the wire. I did. And er
FT: I came, after, they wanted to film me actually on the wire, this is before I went on, and they were doing this, and then they'd bring me back in again. I said, 'you should have let me go then. People down there that have come to see will think that I've changed my mind, I'm not going'. (Laughs)
AM: But you did it, and you've raised three thousand pounds. And I do have a picture, which I'll put with the tape.
FT: You, you you've got picture, have you?
AM: I've got pictures, yeah, I think we'll call it quits now, Frank, because you've been talking for an hour, so thank you very much.
FT: What a line-shoot, eh?
AM: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Tolley was born in 1921 in Tipton and left school at fourteen to work as an errand boy for a grocer. He joined the Royal Air Force at nineteen as a ground gunner, and was in at the inception of the Royal Air Force Regiment. After eighteen months he volunteered to become an air gunner, but instead was selected for pilot, navigator and bomb aimer training. After his initial training at Scarborough, he went to Carlisle to fly Tiger Moths, but didn't solo. He went to Canada to train as a bomb aimer, then came back to Moreton in the Marsh for more training before joining 625 Squadron at Kelstern. He describes some bombing operations and deploying Window. He completed 26 operations. After the war he went into sales in the north west, where his wife had come from. At the time of interview he volunteers at the Imperial War Museum North, and has raised money making two zip-wire jumps across the Manchester Ship Canal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Adams
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:06:43 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATolleyF150702
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dresden
625 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
fear
final resting place
ground personnel
H2S
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
RAF Kelstern
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/358/6094/AHayleyCA160224.2.mp3
24880b7e4d452a04df441ffcc72a2c71
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hayley, Jack
Jack Hayley
C A Hayley
Cecil A Hayley
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Collection consists of a log book, an interview and other items concerning Flight Lieutenant Cecil 'Jack' Alison Hayley DFC. Items include photographs of aircraft and people, a letter concerning his Distinguished Flying Cross and well as newspaper cuttings concerning operations, his wedding and the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross. After training he completed tours on 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, then 170 Squadron at RAF Hemswell before going on to a bomber defence training flight flying Hurricanes and Spitfires.
This collection was donated by Jack Hayley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hayley, CA
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-25
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the, Thursday the 25th of February 2016 and I’m sitting here with John Longstaff-Ellis talking to Cecil Alison Hayley.
JCAH: No.
CB: Otherwise known as Jack and his wife Barbara about Jack’s experiences in the war but can we just start in your earliest recollections Jack?
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Of family life and -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: And how you came to join the RAF.
JCAH: Yes. Yes. Well, I was born in Caterham as I say. My father had an ironmonger’s business in the Croydon Road, Caterham it’s, ‘cause there was lower Caterham and upper Caterham. We were in the lower, lower Caterham and I was I was born over the shop, over the ironmonger’s shop. So earliest recollections I was the youngest of three boys and I was five years younger than my eldest and three and a half years younger than my, the middle one. Harold was the eldest and Leslie was the middle one. I have very few recollections of life before primary school which was at Caterham Board School they called it. It’s on Croydon Road, Caterham which I suppose I started when I was, I don’t know, five I suppose and then, well while I was there I, my interest in those early days, well when I was old enough was Scouting. I started off as a Wolf Cub and went on to Scouting but can I just I stop there.
[machine paused]
JCAH: The thing is my secondary school, ok. So if we could start again. Are you ready to start again?
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Ok. Right. I I went to my secondary school which was Purley County School which, when I started there was near Purley but they had, had to extend the school and make a completely new building and the new school was built at Chalden and I used to cycle from Caterham up, because it was up on the hill, I had to go through Caterham on the hill and I was interested in rugby, I used to play rugby. I wasn’t very interested in cricket but I did join the school cadet corps when I was at Purley County School and I learned to play the bugle there in the band. So that took me up to the age of eighteen when I left school which was 1938, no, seventeen, that’s right. 1938. And my first job was with a small insurance company in the city and our offices were in the Royal Exchange and I was on the mezzanine floor looking out of the window right across to the Bank and Bank Square, the Mansion House and the Bank of England. It was a beautiful position to be in. Anyway, I suppose I was there until, where are we, ‘39, probably 1940, the office, oh no it was before the war they, in 1938 they obviously decided they would move out of London and we moved to Aylesbury and the offices at Aylesbury and my wife happened to be the secretary to the district manager at at the branch there at Aylesbury and she managed to fix me up with accommodation in Stoke Mandeville, Moat Farm and I was well fed there during the war. It was a lovely place to be. Anyway, we, my wife and I, her parents were farming in Weston Turville and I used to enjoy going over to the farm and taking part in the farming activities and eventually, well we got engaged so now we’re coming up, I, of course, I was eighteen when war broke and, but it wasn’t, for some reason or other it wasn’t ‘til 1941 they started taking any interest in me and my service and I had interviews and I, at that time I hadn’t any great ambition to go flying because my family history was in, in the navy and I assumed perhaps I would go in to the navy. But then they were desperate to get young, young chaps to join as air crew so I was persuaded to join the air force and my first, I had to report to the Lord’s Cricket Ground at St John’s, St John’s Wood which was the, what they called the Number 1 Air Crew Receiving Centre which was abbreviated as ACRC and in typical RAF slang became marcy tarcy [laughs]. So, yes I was probably there for probably two or three weeks getting kitted out and being introduced to RAF life and from my first part of training was Initial Training Wing at Newquay in Cornwall and there I did our usual square bashing and getting training in aircraft recognition and Morse, all these sort of things before, so I was probably there four or five months I suppose in Newquay and then yes I heard that I was being, of course by this time of course I knew I’d been selected for air crew training but then we had to go through what they called a grading school which was at Cliffe Pypard near, near Lyneham. Up on the top of the hill. A little small airfield and I think we flew Magisters there and we had twelve hours in which to go solo and if we didn’t go solo, unless there was any other particular reason, you continue pilot training then we were selected for pilot training and of course the alternative was trained as a navigator. So Cliffe Pypard. Yes. Could I just stop a minute there?
[machine paused]
JCAH: So from there we were sent to Heaton Park in Manchester which was the Air Crew Disposal, Dispersal Centre and eventually we were allocated to a convoy going out from Glasgow to take us across, across the Atlantic to Canada. We actually landed in New York and took the train up to Monkton in New Brunswick where we were held pending being sent on to our first training station. So I was there about a couple of weeks and then we took a train journey from New Brunswick across to Calgary and I think we started on the Monday and we got there on the Friday [laughs]. The only main stop we had was at Winnipeg where I think we changed trains and the local ladies were very good to us and came along with all sorts of goodies and they treated us very well and from there we went on to Calgary. I think it was the Friday we arrived and of course the steam trains then were fired by, by wood. Wood fired steam trains, and we used to wake up every morning covered in wood soot. Not a very comfortable journey. Anyway, so having arrived at Calgary we were posted to the 31 Elementary Flying Training School at De Winton where we flew Stearmans mostly. Boeing Stearmans during the day but we also flew Tiger Moths. The American, the Canadian Tiger Moth which had the luxury of a canopy above us instead of being an open cockpit and we used, we used to fly those mainly to introduce us to instrument flying but the main training was on the Stearmans so that took us from September ’42 to, yes to the end of November ‘42 when we were, I was posted to Number 38 Flying Training School at Estevan in Saskatchewan in the middle of the prairies in the middle of the winter. It was pretty harsh but it’s surprising how we coped really and of course the accommodation was all centrally heated you know. Anyway, so we were flying the Anson there. The Canadian Anson with the Jacob engines and it had the luxury of hydraulic undercarriage instead of, you know the British Anson you wound up as well. I don’t know. About eighty winds. So that was, but it’s interesting as well of course a lot of the time we were landing on snow which was very, you had very little references to judge your height and it was a good, good training. And well we did all the normal things. Cross country training of course, instrument flying as well as all our ground training in navigation. Did a lot of Morse code training, aircraft recognition, those sort of things and eventually we completed, I completed my training in April ‘43 and qualified for my wings which I was very proud of and then we were returned to Monkton to the dispersal centre at Monkton for our return journey across the Atlantic and while we were there there was, I remember this, Jimmy Edwards had been training out there and he and a few others managed to get together and produce a show for us which was good fun. Anyway, so we, I was going to say on our outward cruise we had a bit of a panic because one of the ships was torpedoed and it wasn’t ‘til after we got back that there was a news item in the new New York papers of the torpedoing of this ship, it was a cargo ship who managed to struggle into New York so that was interesting. But of course I, whilst I was at Monkton I was commissioned before I came home and so the journey home was far more luxurious in the Ile de France. It was, had been converted into a troop ship so yes we were living in luxury. A little episode, if I could go back to the outward cruise. We were in an American convoy and the sister ship of the one we were in had been, gone down with fire so there were very strict no smoking rules on deck, no below deck. You could smoke above deck and I was caught smoking below deck and my punishment was to work in the kitchen which, this was the officer’s mess and it was nice to pick all up the titbits, the luxury titbits such as oysters, fried oysters. So it wasn’t a bad punishment. Anyway, returning, the home trip was as I say very comfortable and so we, let’s see, we, the first posting was to Harrogate which was another personnel receiving centre and then on to Bournemouth for some reason or other and then we started, we went to Little Rissington which is a suburb of, of the big flying training station. No. Yes. No. That’s right we went to Little Rissington and then we were posted to a satellite of Little Rissington at Windrush and there we were flying Oxfords to get acclimatised to a different type of flying in this country as compared with Canada with the wide open spaces and roads that went either north west or east west. North, east, south and east, west. It was quite different and then of course coping with the restricted areas and so on in this country and during that time I, we did some instrument flying training at the Beam, what they called the Beam Approach Training Flight at Docking where we, they had an approach system which was pretty primitive. Anyway, we were only there oh about ten days and then I finished my training at Madly in September ‘43 and was then posted to a radio school at Madly, west of Hereford on the River Wye and there we were flying radio cadets. I was flying the Domini, the RAF version of the Rapide and the other flight was flying Proctors and single aircraft, single engine aircraft. I must say the old Rapide was very reliable and quite nice to fly. The only snag was there was no seat as such. You were just sat on a cushion with your legs stretched out in front of you which after an hour or so could be pretty, you could get a bit stiff. Anyway, it was an interesting period and we could just choose where we flew just as long as getting practice of operating in the air there, the radio equipment and I got to know the area quite well. The Black Mountains and going north to Cheshire and out that way. So that was, that took me up to March 1944 and at that stage I was about to start my operational training but a little incident. I, my wife and I had arranged to get married in November ‘43. Let’s see, ’43 perhaps and but, that’s right, I was at Madley and a week before we were getting married I was told that I was going on a course and it was they called a junior commander’s course and this was up in Inverness and I thought if any course I was going to go on I thought it was going to be an operational course but to spend, to, prior to my wedding arrangements for the sake of a stupid administrative course was, there was no way I could talk them out of it. Consequently our honeymoon arrangements went by the board and so we got married on the Saturday, yes and that Saturday night we spent in a hotel off The Strand. I think it was the Surrey Hotel if I remember rightly and most of the night was spent in the basement because of the air raid [laughs]. So that was my honeymoon night and the following day I, we had to get, I had to get on a train all the way to Inverness which in those days was it was impossible to find a seat on the train so we just had to squat on our kit in the corridor. So all in all that was a bit of a disaster. So having done that I was then posted in March ‘44 to 83 Operational Training Unit at Peplow. That’s in, in the Midlands. And there I flew the Wellington and I was there for about three months. I forget how many hours we flew but one little incident. The Wellington is infamous for its brake pressure. You had to watch your brake pressure all the time and the dispersal areas there were pans, dispersal pans and the land just dropped away from around the dispersal pan and I suddenly discovered I was out of brake pressure and I had to lurch over the side and down the slope, which I got a red endorsement which was eventually cancelled but that was an unfortunate incident. It learned me a lesson. Taught me a lesson. So Peplow [unclear] Park. Air crew. Yes. So having completed training on a Wellington I then went on to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Sandtoft which was in the Hull area. That sort of area. And I suppose we did about thirty or forty hours on the, on the Halifax and then on to the Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell and that was October ‘44. I was there only for just over two weeks and I had my first training, first appointment to a squadron which was 625 squadron at Kelstern and I was there for nearly two months when 170 squadron was reformed. It was previously a reconnaissance squadron beginning of the war and was disbanded and was reformed at, at Kelstern and I was, we were first of all at a little place called Dunholme Lodge. It was very much a wartime station and it was right alongside, on the, from Scampton on the opposite side of the Ermine Street, the main road to the north and I suppose it was only, I don’t know, might be four miles separating us from Scampton and consequently we had to have a common circuit around both airfields and this all got a bit fraught and I think they decided it was bit too dangerous and we were, I was posted then back to Hemswell and I, well finished my training, finished my tour on 170 squadron on the 15th of April ‘45. If we could just stop there. Yes. Just -
[machine paused]
CB: We’re talking about Lancaster and Halifax so -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: How, what, what were the differences between those then Jack?
JCAH: Well I mean -
CB: And which did you like?
JCAH: The Halifax was quite a heavy aircraft to fly and quite difficult to land successfully. It was quite hard work but the Lancaster was quite different. It was so easily controlled. The controls were more positive but not, not heavy and the manoeuvrability was so much better than the Halifax and the, I suppose as far as the air crew positons it was the same, similar. It simply, you had a Perspex canopy over you as pilot and of course no heating. You just relied on winter clothing to keep warm. So, no, the experience of training, going on to Lancasters was quite remarkable really. The sheer manoeuvrability and particularly when it come to using corkscrews to avoid fighters. Giving maximum deflection all the time. But no so as far as -
CB: What about rate of climb? Was there a difference in that?
JCAH: Yes. I think probably it was better. I think, I think with the four Merlins I can’t remember what the Halifax had in the way of engines.
CB: Well the early ones had Merlins and then they went to -
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: The Bristol Mercuries. .
JCAH: Yes. Hercules.
CB: The Hercules. Yes.
JCAH: Yeah. No. I think it had a climbing and of course I suppose the maximum ceiling was around about twenty thousand feet. We were normally operating, I suppose, about eighteen, eighteen thousand feet. That sort of height. So going back, going, talking about actual incidents during my ops I suppose I’ll just of give a summary of -
CB: What was your first raid?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: What was your first raid?
JCAH: Yes. It was with another crew to introduce me to what was, what happened during a bombing raid and this was an operation on Le Havre in daylight. Yes. So 625 squadron I had, I did twelve sorties with 625 before going on to 170 squadron and I did nineteen sorties with 170 squadron. Making a total of thirty one sorties all together and total flying time during my operations was a hundred and eighty one hours. By that time I had just reached a thousand hours altogether when I finished my tour. But I suppose one particular incident comes to mind when we were over Dusseldorf and we were coned by searchlights and of course you’re a sitting duck then to all the ackack anti-aircraft fire in the area and I simply stuck the nose down and called to the engineer for full power and I shall never forgive him saying, ‘What?’ when I was wanting immediate power [laughs] and you see he was questioning what I was saying. I said, ‘Full power,’ and so we just stuck the nose and just got out of the area as quick as possible. But on return we’d no, had no injuries in the crew but the aircraft was pretty well peppered and on landing I realised that my starboard tyre had burst and that was obviously lurching down. I kept it as straight as I could for as long as I could and then I just veered off on to the grass to clear the runway for the other aircraft coming in but looking at it the next morning was, it was out of commission. That, my aircraft was TCD. Our squadron letter was TC and I, I was D-Dog. I don’t think we had a P. TCP [laughs] Anyway, I suppose in about three or four days it was back in working order and I successfully finished my tour. So -
CB: Just -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Go back on a couple of things.
JCAH: Yes. Ok.
CB: The crews. So you crewed up.
JCAH: Oh yes.
CB: At OTU. How did that work?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: You crewed up at OTU.
JCAH: That’s right.
CB: How did that work?
JCAH: They were just, well we had, no we didn’t have an engineer I don’t think.
CB: No.
JCAH: No. No. Just pilot, navigator, signaller and I think we had one gunner. That’s right. But then going on to the heavy aircraft we were, we were seven. Pilot, flight engineer, navigator, radio operator, bomb aimer and two gunners. Mid-up and two guns. Seven. No. It’s amazing how crew selection, we were just left to mix with each other and somehow we gelled and and I I was very successful, very lucky with my crew I think. My navigator in particular. He was, he was excellent. There was one occasion when we had no aids at all from the target, I forget which target it was and we were completely on dead reckoning radar based on past information on winds and so on but he got us home safely and we managed to recognise landfall on the English coast and got in safely but no, I was, and I was glad that I was eventually awarded the DFC and he was awarded the DFC as well. That pleased me no end because he was a great cont, made a good contribution to the operation of the crew. So you just -
CB: So you got, got a crew. Sorry.
JCAH: Sorry? Yes?
CB: Yes, just, you got a crew at OTU. Normally there was six on the Wellington.
JCAH: We didn’t have a -
CB: Yeah. But some flew with four.
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Was there a shortage of gunners and bomb aimers?
JCAH: I’m just trying to think whether we had two gunners at that stage. That I can’t quite remember. We certainly didn’t have a second pilot but then again -
CB: They were probably -
JCAH: I suppose, did we? I think we must have had a bomb aimer because we had to practice bombing.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Yes. We must have had a bomb aimer so that was at, on the Wellington.
CB: So when you were at, when the crew selection took place who was, were they gelling on you or how -
JCAH: It’s difficult -
CB: Or had some of them already got together? What happened?
JCAH: We got chatting to one another. I mean they had no means of knowing what my performance as a pilot was like and it was all a question of trust. But as I say it worked out very well. Yeah.
CB: So when you got to the HCU you then got the, a flight engineer.
JCAH: Yes. Flight engineer.
CB: And was he allocated to you or how did that happen?
JCAH: No. I think much the same thing happened. Of course we had a crew then to decide amongst us who we liked really, or who appealed to us.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: So that made it easier so, so -
CB: How many of the crew were commissioned other than you?
JCAH: My navigator was commissioned and strangely enough my mid-upper gunner which was unusual for a gunner, to have a commissioned gunner. And the rest of them were non-commissioned.
CB: And how did the crew get on in the, in flight and -
JCAH: Yes. I think -
CB: In the evening.
JCAH: You had to avoid being too familiar on the operations and you had to be strict on your intercom identifying each other as a pilot and not by name, that sort of thing so there was no misunderstanding. But yes my, yes my radio operator, he was Australian. A young Australian but he gelled very well. In fact we had a Bridge crew on board, the radio operator, the navigator my, the mid-upper, all four of us played bridge and we always had a pack of cards with us when we were sitting around waiting for something to happen which was good fun. So -
CB: Socially? So in the time off did the crew do things together or did there -
JCAH: Oh yes.
CB: Tend to be factions?
JCAH: No. Not at all. Of course we were in separate messes obviously but we were, certainly at Dunholme Lodge, we were billeted as a crew in old nissen huts with a coke boiler in the middle and the fumes that used to come off that boiler were quite, well sulphurous put it that way and not very, but anyway, we survived that but of course our messes, we used separate messes but we used to, in the evenings we used to obviously go out to the pub together and relax.
CB: So you were married. Were any of the others married?
JCAH: My engineer I think was married. My navigator wasn’t then I don’t think. No. No. I think my engineer and I were was the only ones who were married.
CB: Where was your wife during the war?
JCAH: She was in Aylesbury and -
CB: With her parents.
JCAH: Yes. On the farm at Weston Turville. Of course you had to be careful in those days just what you said on the telephone. You couldn’t really say anything about your operational activities at all but no we kept in touch and obviously an anxious time for her. But -
CB: How did you manage to get time together?
JCAH: During the tour I think we only had one occasion when we were, had a period of two or three days leave when we could get together. But I do remember when we were on OTU my wife managed to come and join us. She stayed at a local hotel and she managed to meet my basic crew at that time but that was the only time really we got together. Yeah.
CB: You didn’t manage to get loan of a small plane to fly in to Halton.
JCAH: [laughs]. No. No.
CB: Or Westcott.
JCAH: Yes because my father in law’s farm actually bordered on to the airfield at Halton at Weston Turville and just before the war an auto Gyro crashed.
CB: Right.
JCAH: On the airfield and in their hall they had the joystick from the remains of the auto Gyro I remember. Anyway that’s all a bit irrelevant.
CB: So you finished your tour.
JCAH: Yes.
CB: So that was when?
JCAH: It was February 1944.
CB: Yes. ‘45. ’44.
JCAH: ’45.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: I beg your pardon ‘45 and then there was an extraordinary posting was on to 1687 bomber defence training flights flying Spitfires and Hurricanes if you please. Coming off Lancasters this was quite, quite a different experience but we used to do, practice fighter affiliation.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: On the squadron bombers.
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: That was back at Hemswell strangely enough. Actually yes actually they were at Scampton when I first joined them and then they went back to Hemswell and as I say we used to fly Spitfires during the day and the Hurricanes at night.
CB: Oh did you? What were they like?
JCAH: Well they were, I mean they didn’t compare with the Spitfires. The handling and manoeuvrability. It was a steady, steady old aircraft but the Spitfire was great fun to fly. So manoeuvrable. Mind you there were times when I really didn’t know what I was up to. In fact it was in 19, where are we? ’47. We had the first open day after the war. Hemswell open day and part of the programme was the three of us were doing a tail chase and supposedly bombing a target in the middle of the airfield and the cloud base was only around about a thousand feet and we, all three of us winged over and I suddenly realised I really hadn’t got enough height to pull out of this dive and this hangar was coming out on my right and I was literally [stalling all around this dive?] and I honestly thought that this was it. Anyway, when I taxied in after this flight I had about twenty yards of telegraph wire on my tail wheel which shows you how close I was to the ground.
CB: It thrilled the audience.
JCAH: Oh yes. You know. Highly delighted.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: But I never heard the result of the loss of telephone communications in the area [laughs].
CB: Yes.
JCAH: I never did hear.
CB: What was the significance of having the fighter, the Spitfire for day affiliation and the Hurricane for night?
JCAH: Well really the Spitfire with the narrow undercarriage it was quite tricky to land particularly in a crosswind. It was very, you were sort of teetering all the time whereas the Hurricane the undercarriage went outwards, that’s right and so you had a wider wheel base and they were more stable in the landing process. Apart from that, I think that was the main reason why we used to fly Hurricanes at night. But there were times. The Lancaster used to have little blue lights on the tail side of the wing tips and there were times when I thought I was chasing these two blue lights only to find I was chasing a star. Got into all sort of peculiar situations. So I wasn’t a great night fighter pilot. [laughs]
CB: How long were you there?
JCAH: Let me see. Hurricanes. ’45. Well, I have it in here. Yes. [pause] Yes I was there about eighteen months. Yeah. Yes.
CB: End of ’46.
JCAH: Yes. October ‘46 I finished my tour there.
CB: Then what?
JCAH: Well it disbanded. The unit disbanded and I I was put on to headquarters duties I think. I was, when the chaps were demobbed they had what they called a release book which gave a little history and I had to make a little summary of the person’s history but really not knowing much about them at all but I used to make up some complimentary remarks but that was the main thing I was doing there.
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: Where?
JCAH: Still at Hemswell.
CB: Right.
JCAH: As I say Hemswell took up a very big part in my RAF career at that time because then Lincolns were brought into Hemswell and I joined 83 squadron on Lincolns. The intention was they were being trained for operations in the Far East against Japan.
CB: Right.
JCAH: And of course that didn’t come off and so I finished on 83 squadron in March 1949 and it was then that I was posted to Defford. What they called the Telecommunications Flying Unit doing, flying the equipment from the Radar Research Establishment, airborne experience and that really was quite a remarkable unit because they were using aircraft which weren’t required for their original duties. Consequently while I was on the heavy flight, what did I here? So I was flying Lincolns, Yorks, a Tudor 7 and a Wayfarer. This was on the, we had a heavy flight and a light flight, you know, flight and when we had a slack period in heavy flight I used to go across to fly some of the lighter aircraft which included Meteor, Meteor 7, Mosquito, Vampire, Firefly, Canberra, Brigand and we had had some communication aircraft. Valetta and the, the Devon, the service version of the De Havilland Dove which we used for communication flying but I mean on one month I had nine different aircraft on my logbook.
CB: Amazing.
JCAH: But that -
CB: So you enjoyed that.
JCAH: Pardon?
CB: You enjoyed that.
JCAH: Well, it was, it was good fun and it was amazing you used to go across to the light flight and you’d get the handbook out and just chat with the chaps because I mean, well a Mosquito did have two pilots but I mean, the others, the Meteor and the Canberra and the Vampire had all single seat and you couldn’t get any dual training and you just had a chat with the chaps who were flying and read the pilots notes and off you went.
CB: So was the Meteor the first jet that you flew?
JCAH: It was either the Meteor or the Vampire. It looks as though, yes.
CB: And did -
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: And did you go in a training version of that for your first flight in jet?
JCAH: No. I think probably not formal training but went along with one of the other chaps who was flying it regularly. Yes that was quite an experience.
CB: Because the Meteor 7 is a T7 isn’t it?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: The Meteor 7 is a trainer. T7.
JCAH: Oh right.
CB: And –
JCAH: Yes. And, yes, and the Meteor 4 if I can remember. Yes.
CB: Was a single seater.
JCAH: Yes. So that’s the way we went on.
CB: So when did you finish that?
JCAH: Where are we? Yes in May 1952.
CB: What was your wife’s name?
JCAH: Noreen.
CB: Noreen.
JCAH: Noreen.
CB: How is that spelled? N O R E E N.
JCAH: N. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. And did she come up to stay with you then at that time? Were there quarters?
JCAH: Yes. Now we’re talking about 1947 and it was only then that we were allowed to make arrangements to live out locally. We were with our wives and families, if you had them and I found a little cottage. It was, well it was attached to a bigger, still a cottage but we were just one up and one down and this was in Kirton Lindsey which was just north of Hemswell and it was about, yes, about seven miles. I used to cycle from there to Hemswell but the extraordinary thing with this little cottage was that the downstairs floor was wooden and the bedroom was a concrete floor. It was quite extraordinary and of course we had a little scullery, a little small scullery which we used as a pantry and an old coal range which we used to cook on. So it was all rather primitive but we were so pleased to be living together and, yes it wasn’t ‘til, yes, that was Hemswell. It wasn’t until I got to Defford that we had official married quarters but being a wartime station there were just single bed accommodation and I think where we were used to be the WAAF area when WAAFs were there and as I say they were just single brick quarters but we had, I think we had two bedrooms and a kitchen and bathroom so it was comparative luxury from our original -
CB: But that was an air force -
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: That was an air force building.
JCAH: Yes. Actually at Defford the, it was a Ministry of Supply station and it was just the aircrew who were the service, RAF element. So the interesting thing was as my, as I say my grandson is in a practice in Malvern.
CB: Malvern.
JCAH: Malvern. Yes. And living in Worcester and we, it was about a couple of years ago we paid a visit to them and I said I would like to go back to the Defford area and see what’s left because the flying discontinued there. They went to, moved to Pershore but there was still they had these big aerial discs on the airfield but I discovered they’d got a little museum there because Defford during the war was a very important station developing all the radar stuff and they’ve got a little exhibition there and my grandson introduced me as being, being there just after the war and they were very interested in this and they were talking about this road, Swimming Pool Road and of course the airfield was built on the Croome Estate, the Earl of Coventry’s estate and the entrance to our mess area was one of the big arches from the estate and the road leading from the arch up to where our mess was was known as Swimming Pool Road and they couldn’t understand this. Anyway, I was able to tell them we had a fire reservoir outside the mess which we took advantage of and used it as a swimming pool and we knew it as well that’s how it got its name but I was able to tell them the origin of the name which is quite interesting. So we’ve diverted a bit.
CB: We have. But after Defford, so May ‘52 where did you go from that?
JCAH: Yes. I went, for my sins I was posted to Germany as a station adjutant at RAF Celle. This was in August ‘52 and it was a big station. We had three flying squadrons with Venoms. They had Vampires and then Venoms and three RAF regiment squadrons and various other [unclear] so it was a big station and a lot of activity of course. Not being au fait with administration it was very daunting to say the least and not only that, one of the subsidiary jobs was married, married quarters, I was responsible for married quarters and the problem of allocating quarters to people who were desperate, you know, to come back from England and get quarters and that caused all sorts of problems but fortunately I hadn’t been there long when they posted a WAAF officer who took over that. That part. But what else? Oh yes I was responsible for the station police and there were some police dogs there and that was all part of my responsibility. So really it was two and a half years but I made some very good friends there at the time. Particularly amongst the RAF regiment squadrons and two particular families I stayed with them until they died. All four of them died now. But as I say, we had, it’s surprising when you’re away from home, posted away from home you make your entertainment in the mess and we had a lot of fun with fancy dress balls and all that sort of thing and there were compensations.
CB: Now this was a former Luftwaffe station.
JCAH: Yes.
CB: So the facilities were pre-war Luftwaffe.
JCAH: Yes. The accommodation -
CB: What was that like?
JCAH: Was very good. Yes. The mess. The mess accommodation was excellent and we had, you know, properly built married quarters. Yeah. That side of it was, was excellent you know. And of course I, I’ve got a, I haven’t mentioned my, the birth of my granddaughter, sorry, my daughter Anthea. Yes we were at -
CB: When was that?
JCAH: Yes, we were at Defford when she arrived. She was originally supposed to be born at a nursing home at Upton on Severn but she was an awful mess. She was upside down and extended and they decided they couldn’t cope with her at the nursing home and I had to take her into Birmingham. This was mid-winter and we’d had a lot of snow and it had thawed and then frozen and I had as my first car was an old standard 10, pre-war standard 10 where the suspension was almost nil. My poor wife driving over this corrugated ice all the way to Birmingham was quite extraordinary. Anyway, she arrived safely on the 5th of June, sorry the 5th of January 1951 and of course I had to wait, when I went out to Germany I had to wait probably three or four months before married accommodation was available but anyway she was, I suppose she was about two. Yeah, ‘53 and we, in those days in Germany you were, you were provided with a housekeeper so, and Renata, our housekeeper she also acted as a nurse to Anthea and they got on, she loved my daughter and it meant that we could go away and leave her with her and go on trips down the Rhine and this sort of thing. So -
CB: So when did you leave Celle?
JCAH: Celle? Yes. It was, my records run out. It was in about March ‘55. Yes I had just about two and a half years out in Germany and I was then posted to Transport Command and –
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: I did a conversion training on Hastings at Dishforth and then I joined 24 squadron at Abingdon on Hastings. I suppose at the end of ‘55. Yeah. The conversion training was only about forty or fifty hours and that was the beginning of another interesting period in my flying career because as I say I was on 24 and we used to say in brackets C Commonwealth squadron because it, they posted quite a few Commonwealth people on 24 squadron and our squadron leader, he was a squadron commander was an Australian and there were various other people from the Commonwealth but most of my experience on Hastings was flying out to Australia to send, fly supplies and personnel to the Woomera guided weapons range and also to the, oh dear, [unclear] they, they were just preparing for the atom bomb going up there.
CB: Christmas Island.
JCAH: Well no. That was the H bomb. This was the first atom bomb. Actually I think they had blown up one. Well this was a big preparation and of course we spent a lot of time, flights, we used to bring supplies and personnel to, we used to fly out of Edinburgh Field, the RAF base near Adelaide and it so happened I did have some relations living in Adelaide so it was quite convenient to be able to look them up but I, we were actually there. Maralinga, that’s right, was the, where the bomb went off and I was actually there when they exploded the atom bomb. That was quite an experience and everybody, every individual had to be accounted for before they set off the bomb and we were told obviously to face away and we were told when we could turn back and see and well it was pretty hefty sound when the bomb went off but the interesting thing was all the, they sent up rockets which left tracers going in different directions to indicate the direction of what was happening to the air following the bomb and the next day, I think it was the next day or might have been the day I was, I had to fly some samples from Maralinga up to Edinburgh. What am I saying? To Darwin. A civil flight to take them back to the UK and I was told how low I could fly. I could fly over the area but it was just like the face of the moon. All arid and, but to see these white clad figures walking across there was quite remarkable and of course the radio just went berserk to some extent and I had a strange feeling of saliva drying up in my mouth. It was quite definite and whether it was the effect of the radio activity, I suppose it must have been. Anyway, that was that and then of course then the H bomb came along and we were supplying, flying supplies out to that out to Christmas Island. Yes. That, let me think. Yes I’ve got to try and recap.
CB: We’ll have a break.
JCAH: Yeah.
[machine paused]
JCAH: Early ‘57 when we were flying out to Christmas Island.
CB: Right.
JCAH: To prepare for the –
CB: You were still on Hastings then.
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: But we used to, while we were on Christmas Island we used to take flights up to Honolulu to fly supplies for the station there. It was mostly boxes of whisky [laughs] but all sorts of things we used to go up to Honolulu to keep the Christmas Island supplied which was quite a nice diversion. So, yes, by then, we started off, 24 squadron started off at Colerne and then they moved, sorry at Abingdon and then we moved to Colerne near Bath and eventually we finished up at Lyneham and by, and then of course the Britannia came along so I joined 99 squadron at Lyneham in August 1959 and started training on the Britannia. So that was 1959. Lots of interesting flights. I know we took the Cranwell cadets out to, I’ll have to see if I can find it, the equivalent, the American air force equivalent of Victors. I wish I could find it now. Anyway, that was quite interesting and we were well looked after by the American air force in, it’s on the east side of the mountains in America. And my mind is beginning to go blank.
CB: Ok.
JCAH: So well that’s all sorts of interesting flights on the Britannia.
CB: So how long were you flying the Britannia?
JCAH: Yes. Let’s have a look. [pause]. 1960 [pause] ‘61. Yes, I finished flying the Britannia in February 1962 and they wanted to make way for the young second pilots coming on to become captains so they decided the older ones would stand down and I then went to Benson on the, at the, in the operations room at Benson which would be ‘62. I’m running out of – and I was there ‘62 to ’64 and I was told I was going to Aden on a year’s unaccompanied tour and, well, I was expecting to retire within the next year or eighteen months and I said, ‘No but I’m retiring shortly.’ And I obviously wanted to do a bit of preparation before leaving the service but no they wouldn’t be moved so I had to spend a year on my own in Aden and that was at the time just before we pulled out and it was getting pretty uncomfortable out there. The bombs being dropped all over the place. In fact we had one occasion where we were in, I was at headquarters Middle East at Steamer Point and on one occasion where a bomb went off in the mess and the chap who was laying it made a mess of it and blew himself up and fortunately nobody else. It was intended to go off later on in the day. And another occasion we were entertaining, it was dining in night and this, I was sitting with some nurses, RAF nurses and this grenade landed on this, this girl’s soup plate and it didn’t go off. Oh dear. And so, but that’s the sort of life we lived out there. It was pretty uncomfortable that year. I did manage to get home, I think for a week, at one period. So that was ‘65 and then my final tour in the RAF I was at Odiham in the ops room there which was then headquarters of 38 Group which was a part of Transport Command. And I always remember watching England win the World Cup on television there while I was there and then I finally retired in 1967.
CB: From Odiham.
JCAH: From Odiham. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: And, yes, I was just wondering, I mean, I was looking around for some civil appointment and I got to hear about the CAA wanting ex RAF people as operations officers and I managed to pass an interview for that. So, well, that was ‘67 and I started off with the accident and investigation branch, in the Adelphi I remember, in London and then I was, I used to go to court cases where there were people being summoned for low flying and all this sort of thing and I used to be the operational advisor to the legal people but that was only for a short time and then I went in to the licensing department. Of course it was, let me think, yes it was air ministry I think still when I was there. Then it became the Department of Trade and Industry, no, no, became Board of Trade and then finally Department of Trade and Industry. This was the time when Heath was trying to cut down on civil service and he decided that he wanted to offload the air ministry side to another separate authority and that’s when the CAA was formed. So, yes, I was, yes it was quite interesting [flight?] licencing and I eventually chaired ICAO. You know, the International Civil Aviation Organisation was in Montreal and I was put on to a group in, at Montreal to update the licensing aspects of what they called Annexe One of the international convention and this was the, what did they call it? Anyway the licencing aircrew, licensing requirements for the various licenses. There was the commercial pilot’s licence, the air and transport licence and eventually I did chair this committee and we finally produced amendments which I never saw implemented but I gather later that they were, I heard that they were implemented. What was the other thing?
CB: So when did you retire from the, from that?
JCAH: 1984.
CB: 1984.
JCAH: ’84.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Yes. Yes, it was. I used to get quite a few chaps from the service that I knew who were coming along and I had one chap in particular he, there was the Air Registration Board Examination to qualify to fly a particular aircraft and they had this qualifying exam and he was trying to give me past papers but they just didn’t publish them and he was one of these chaps, you know, he was trying to be clever to try the easy way out. Anyway, that was a minor incident. So I retired on my, virtually on my birthday April ‘84 and I’d been retired about four weeks and my wife died.
CB: Ah.
JCAH: Yes and obviously we’d made all sorts of plans.
CB: Oh dear.
JCAH: And of course I haven’t mentioned how I came to Wokingham. How, to live in Wokingham. It was when I’d finished my tour in Germany we decided we would put our, try and to put some roots down somewhere because my daughter was coming up for schooling and I was going in to Transport Command and be away a lot. Anyway, we went up to the Ideal Home Exhibition and saw these houses and liked the look of them and were told they were being built in Wokingham. I’d never heard of Wokingham. Anyway, we came down and had a look where they were building and the town and we liked it and so that was in 1955. December ‘55 we actually moved in. Where are we? Yes, that’s right, come back, 1955 we actually moved in and I’ve been here ever since in Wokingham but, so having, my wife having died we were living in rented accommodation at the time because we were intending to move to -
BH: I thought you’d look at me. No. I can’t remember.
JCAH: It’s silly. I know the place so well. The name is not, just not coming. I’ll think of it.
CB: Right. Around here was it?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: Was it around here?
JCAH: No. Up in the Midlands.
CB: Ok.
JCAH: Near Leicester.
CB: Ah.
JCAH: I know the place.
CB: But not in Rutland.
JCAH: Yes. In Rutland and the capital of Rutland was.
CB: Oakham.
JCAH: Oakham. Thank you very much and we’d actually put a deposit down for a house in Oakham. I wasn’t all that keen on it but my wife had become disenchanted with Wokingham and we’d had friends at Cottesmore who we used to visit regularly and of course Rutland Water had been developed then. It was all very nice in that area but in, of course my wife then died while we were still negotiating. The people we were buying from hadn’t got a house and they were trying to find a house. It suited me because I hadn’t actually retired when we, but anyway my wife having died I wasn’t going to move up there on my own and I sold the house and during that period when the prices were really escalating and it did me a good turn financially by this period while we were waiting. Anyway, I was, so I was then looking around for somewhere to live and I came down here and I didn’t know this existed and I thought well this is a nice place. It would be nice here. And I walked down the bottom of the road here and a retired clergyman who used to help us at All Saints Church, he saw me and I told him, you know, I was looking for a house and how nice it was. He invited me in. I walked back up to Wokingham and I met a lady who was my next door but one neighbour in my first house in [Frogall?] Road and she asked me how I was getting on. I said I was getting on alright but I was just looking for a house and I’d just been down to Milton Gardens and how nice it was. She said, Well I’ve just had lunch with a lady and she told me, and who lived in Milton Gardens and told me she was putting her house on the market the following Monday so I immediately got in touch with her and we settled it without agents or anything and that’s how I came to number eleven over there. So that was, where are we in dates?
BH: It was about ‘90 wasn’t it?
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Well, you retired in ‘84.
BH: I was still working –
JCAH: Well -
BH: I was still working when you -
JCAH: Yes, it was the end of ‘84 that I actually moved in.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: So I knew Barbara before through the church and she used to play tennis with my wife so we knew each other but I know we were neighbours for seven years and I used to be in the kitchen over there getting ready to go out and play golf and I used to see Barbara going, and poor girl going out to work and here I am going off to play golf. Anyway, it was, it took seven years before we, well we did one or two things together didn’t we? And went to concerts together and one thing and, well I used to have Christmas parties, I was chairman of the Residents Association and I used to have a Christmas party and Barbara always used to come over and help me clear up afterwards. It gave me a good impression anyway. So in the end -
CB: Got all the ticks.
BH: You waited until I retired -
JCAH: That’s right.
BH: Before he proposed.
JCAH: And I said, ‘This is stupid, why don’t we get together?’ And I came over here.
CB: Very good. Smashing.
JCAH: So there we are.
CB: That’s been great.
JCAH: The end of a fairy tale.
CB: Well the whole thing -
JCAH: The fairy tale ending.
CB: Worked very well didn’t it?
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Thank you very much for that. There’s just one thing and that is fast backwards to your promotions. So you started as an SAC because you were well educated.
JCAH: Yes and I was commissioned.
CB: And then how did it go from there?
JCAH: I was commission at the end of my training when I got my wings.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: I was at Monkton. I, I, yes. I was because I remember going and buying my uniform.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: In Monkton. In the town. And then of course while I was at Defford the first station commander there I didn’t get along at all. I had a dispute about the married quarters and somebody else wanting the same one. Anyway, I wasn’t very popular there and he didn’t recommend me for a PC. And then the next chap came along and I got on very well with him and he recommended me for my permanent commission and I’d taken promotion exam and I’d taken the Staff College Qualifying Exam and did all I could and, well this would be 1951 and they decided that they’d put an age limit of thirty on appointments to permanent commission and I’d just gone over, over the thirty so that was the end of that but I was quite keen to stay on in the air force and I settled for this limited promotion one. Commission.
CB: So you were already a flight lieutenant.
JCAH: Yes. Oh yes. Yes. I finished up the war as a flight lieutenant.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: And that was confirmed. I was an acting flight lieutenant at the time.
CB: Yeah because you were acting VR.
JCAH: Yes and I was eventually confirmed and I stayed as a, as a old flight lieutenant but as I say I enjoyed my RAF career and a lot of interest.
CB: Well Jack Haley thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jack Hayley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-24
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:27:23 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHayleyCA160224
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Hayley was born in Caterham and worked for an insurance company before he joined the Royal Air Force and trained to be a pilot. He trained to fly in Canada and after going through an Operational Training Unit in England, he was posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. And after completing twelve operations he joined 170 Squadron where he completed a further nineteen operations. While waiting for operations he would play bridge with other members of his crew. After his tour he was posted to 83 Squadron and served with Transport Command in Germany, Australia and Aden. He was present during the testing for the Atom bomb and also flew supplies to Christmas Island in advance of the hydrogen bomb test.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Germany
Great Britain
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
Christmas Island
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Düsseldorf
Yemen (Republic)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938
1940
1941
1944
1945
170 Squadron
625 Squadron
83 OTU
83 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Dominie
Flying Training School
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hurricane
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
love and romance
Magister
Meteor
military living conditions
Mosquito
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
Proctor
RAF Clyffe Pypard
RAF Defford
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Madley
RAF Peplow
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Windrush
RCAF Estevan
Spitfire
Stearman
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/471/8354/ABirkbyB150729.1.mp3
40d49652d36d4a48be5610dad7fe0f43
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Birkby, Bessie
B Birkby
Tess Birkby
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Birkby, B
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Leading Aircraftswoman Bessie Birkby (1924 - 2019) and two photographs. She was a Women's Auxilliary Air Force driver stationed at RAF Binbrook, RAF Kelstern and RAF Scampton.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bessie Birkby and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM. Ok so this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Annie Moody and the Interviewee is Bessie?
BB. Birkby.
AM. Birkby, and the interview is taking place at Bessie’s home Wath on Dearne on the 30th of July 2015. So if perhaps Bessie just to start with tell me a little about your background, about your parents and school and stuff like that.
BB. Shall I tell you my age first?
AM. Go on tell me how old you are.
BB. I am ninety one going into ninety two. I was married to my husband Walter Birkby he always got called Wally I got called Tess that was my nick name and eh we had been married sixty three years when Walter died. And eh anyhow I was eighteen when I joined, had to join, because eh my sisters were nurses but I worked in a shop. So it was either going in munitions or going in the forces.
AM. How old were you when you left school Bessie?
BB. I was fourteen.
AM. So what did you do straight from leaving school?
BB. Mostly working in shops, you know [cough] like grocery shops and eh I loved it but then of course I was working in a shop when both my sisters were nurses. So I had to choose, either going in the forces or going in factories where you make bombs and things.
AM. Ok, you could have stayed in the shop, but you wanted to do something?
BB. But I fancied going in, in the forces so I joined and eh my mum put me on the train in Doncaster and I was crying and she was crying but I still wanted to go. But I’d never been, I never left home or, my father worked in the pit and my mum she had five children. I was next to the eldest and eh so we were both upset at me going but I still wanted to go. I was going as far as Bridgenorth anyhow I got on this train and off I went. When I got there, it was a long journey and when I got there, on the last train. I remember where I had to change but I don’t remember where or anything. So I met up with the girls that were going in to join to be a WAAF.
AM. What year was this Bessie?
BB. What year was it it was 1942.
AM. ’42.
BB. Yeah and so [cough] eh when we got there to Bridgenorth, ‘course you had to have a medical and all sorts of thing like that.
AM. What was that like.
BB. Well I had never really been away from home, I never sort of got undressed in front of anybody and it, it was an ordeal. And eh but anyhow I carried on and I made friends and I was very popular because I could do make up, I could do hair and all sorts, I used to love it you know, beautifying. I got lots of friends because they used to come to me.’Oh Bessie will you do my hair or will you do this, pluck my eyebrows?’ And I really enjoyed it but anyhow we had to get up early to get your knife, fork and spoon and what have you. You had to go outside for to wash yourself and eh and anyhow we started marching, we used to have to go on parade. And eh so anyhow I don’t know how long I was marching and what and then of course I put in to be a driver but of course I had to go along to be em trained [?]. So I had to go with girls I go to me MT Sections and em got sort of well anything you know [a little confused].
AM. When you put in to be a driver did you have to have an interview or anything or did they say yes you can be a driver then?
BB. No I had to, in fact they sent me to a place where there were balloons you know and I had to practice putting a balloon up which was like driving a car.
AM. Tell me more about that, how do you put a balloon up.
BB. I was posted to Scotland and so and there we didn’t have we had to go in digs in peoples houses. This lady I went into she were a lovely lady and she took to me. In fact for years I wrote to her but we lived in Borough Muir West and and I were really I loved it sending the balloon up.
AM. What do you mean ‘sending the balloon up.’?
BB. You had to fly it.
AM. How big was it?
BB. Huge, didn’t you remember them balloons, well they were huge weren’t they?
Unknown Male. Like a Zeppelin.
AM. Oh like a Zeppelin? Oh eh I have got you.
BB. They were like as big as a caravan.
AM. Like a barrage balloon?
BB. Yeah.
Unknown Male. So that planes would fly into wires that were holding them.
BB. ‘course it got me going to change gear and one thing and another to learn.
AM. So where were you, were you on the ground.
BB. I were in a cage and balloon were over top of me, I used to have to send them up and Germans were coming over, you know it were queer. But anyhow I think I was there about six months and eh there must have been a place for me to start up for me driving and I was posted to Pwllheli in North Wales then again.
AM. So down, up to Scotland and then across to Wales.
BB. Yeah, down in Pwllheli oh that were, I was six months there but you had to do eh, besides learning to drive you had to do, learn how to eh maintain your vehicle in the morning you put and inspection for your water, your battery what have you and then [cough] you go out driving on the roads. I used to go in all these eh country lanes it were in Pwllheli.
AM. Who was it that were doing the instructing.
BB. We had men instructed.
AM. What were they like?
BB. Well I don’t recall.
AM. What were they like with you I mean, were they ok, women learning to drive?
BB. I were a ‘right with learning this balloon business I knew how to change gear, do the footwork because you had to do it like driving a car and so I was very lucky because I soon learned to drive but I was there six months so I had a thorough training but when you passed out you had to pass out on three vehicles.
AM. Different ones?
BB. Yeah a little one, small and then a fifteen hundred and then a thirty hundred weight and then of course later on it in the time I got to drive a two ton, were it, what were it, crew bus. I used to drive the crew bus. I was first posted to Binbrook when I passed out driving but there were lots of girls who failed and they couldn’t go back driving they had to remuster to another job. But I was very fortunate I passed it all and then I was posted to Binbrook and they were just forming our Squadron 625 Squadron and it was Bomber Command. I forgotten what Group was it One Group? Bomber Command, 625.
Unknown male. You were stationed, no you would have been in Five Group.
BB. Can’t remember.
AM.Anyway 625.
BB. 625 Squadron.
Unknown male. It would be in Five Group.
BB. Yeah and so they were forming this Squadron and then from Binbrook I was posted to Kelstern which was a few mile away because there was a lot of aerodromes in Lincoln at that time, weren’t there and so this were all new but we all had eh to sleep in these eh tin things, what did you call them?
AM. Nissan huts.
BB. Nissan huts and there were ten beds, you just had your bed and what have you. You didn’t have sheets, aircrew had sheets but not.
Unknown male. Aircrew had sheets.
BB. But not.
AM. The girls didn’t .
BB. And we were in these, fireplace in the middle and it were a little round thing and and I don’t know what it, I think it was coal or coke and that were only heating you had. You had to go outside for toilets and what have you, ablutions, it were you know. But, oh it were marvellous and at Kelstern I got very friendly eh and I were post, I were given a job on the ambulance. So I lived in sick quarters and eh with being at Kelstern when that snow came, nobody could get anywhere could they. It were terrible but I [cough] used to take the MO, the Doctor down into Lincoln and I used to drive him about on the small ambulance. There were bigger ambulances for a crew and eh this particular day we were going down into Lincoln and the MO he were a marvellous fellow and he had flying boots on, big coat but then eh, now he says ‘ I shall be about two hours so you go market, have a look round and meet me so and so, and we will come back to camp, to Kelstern.’ So anyhow I did that and I thought while I’m in, ‘cause where I lived down at the old mill at home we had apple trees, pear trees and all sorts. So I thought ‘ I will buy me self some apples.’ And I am [unclear] eating me apple and I went to pick the MO up like and I said ‘would you like and apple sir?’ he said ‘yes I would,’ he said ‘now don’t be getting tummy ache.’ You know before tea time I started reeling, the nurses were saying ‘we are going to fetch the MO to you.’ Because I were crying with pain and of course they fetched him from Officers Mess. When he came he said ‘my dear I will have to take you down to Louth Infirmary.’ They operated on me with appendicitis before midnight. Do you know he stayed with me because I was crying, I wanted me mum, Oh I were in a state. Me mum managed to come and see me I were in a farm house.
AM. So it weren’t the apple. [laugh]
BB. [laugh] No, well I don’t know what it were, anyhow he were brilliant and he stuck with me until next morning when I come round. In them days putting you to sleep it were horrible, dreaming and what not. Anyway he gave me some leave and I were at home about a month I think. Anyhow it was when that snow was on of course there were no flying. So of course I went back to Kelstern and then a month after we got a message to say we were all moving to Scampton.
AM. Just before you moved to Scampton what did you do then when you got back to Kelstern?
BB. I went back on the ambulance
AM. Still the ambulance, so you were driving the MO around who, what else were they using the ambulances for, the crew or.
BB. Well they used the ambulances to follow them back didn’t they? They used to be many a time crashes ‘cause they used to shoot at them didn’t they? It were horrible. Anyhow eh I carried on then and then of course we all went to Scampton, I can’t remember the date at all. So anyhow I know for a fact that all Lancaster bombers from Kelstern, they all got toilet rolls where bombs used to go and they let them all go over the fields and there were white toilet rolls when we moved, when we moved.
AM. Why was that then.
BB. It was just a bit of fun for the farmers, these were aircraft doing this. Anyhow we got to, to and of course with me this one job I did eh I didn’t always be on ambulance. I remember eh there were er er an Officer in command of our MT and he came to Kelstern and he said to whoever were in charge of our MT at that particular time ‘I want one of your best drivers, because I am going visiting eh we shall be away about three weeks.’ He says ‘ I want somebody I can trust.’ And and I was a good driver so they picked me. So he were brilliant now he says, we had a good car, it were really good and we set off and we were going all up North to go to Topcliffe and all them aerodromes and we had to visit all MT departments. He says as we were setting of he says ‘now then I want you to relax and I want you just to think of me as your father. Whatever you want you must tell me and if you are ever in trouble or whatever you do when we get to different Stations I’ll get you sleeping quarters. And I’ll see that you are put, well looked after and you will not have to be frightened and you will have to get in touch with me if, if you are frightened.’
AM. What did he think you would be frightened of?
BB. I don’t know.
AM. All them men.
BB. I didn’t think of it then. You know I weren’t frightened because we lived out, when, when we were girls we lived down on our own in countryside we used to go to school and we couldn’t go home for dinner because it were too far away. We lived down at old mill didn’t we?
Unknown male. Aye [unclear]I remember being down there.
BB. In fact when I used to go home on leave I used to arrange, I used to hitch hike home to as far as Doncaster when I had the leave and eh what I did I used to catch the double decker bus from Doncaster and it always used to go to Brampton Church where I had to get of me last call, you know and it always used to get there about ten o’clock. And where we lived at the old mill I got off the bus and then I come on some steps and to go down these steps and down the road and what I used to do. Me mum used to be watching out for that double decker bus, she could see it from where we lived. And I used to whistle we had two dogs and me mum used to say ‘go on she’s come our Bessie, go and meet her.’ And they used to come as far as bottom of green them dogs and come and meet me home. And we had a big long orchard going down another way didn’t we?
Unknown male. Yeah.
BB. He knows where old mill were ‘cause it were a lovely, lovely cottage where we lived.
AM. Sounds it.
BB. Aye me mum always used to, always she used to always save me a little bit of steak and give me a cuddle. She used to spoil me, anyhow that were, I’m cutting me tale aren’t I. Anyhow I did that for three weeks and I got leave again given and it were wonderful, I enjoyed it and he were a gentleman and we had a burst, we had a burst tyre, I think we were near Topcliffe and and he said I’ll do it and he changed wheel. I said ‘I can do it I am capable.’ He said ‘I’ll do it. ’Because I had been driving. It were marvellous that and, and I were right proud to think they had chosen me, oh it were lovely. Anyhow, and then when we were posted to Scampton that’s when I met me husband but he already got a girl, lady friend. One of me first jobs there was sick quarters again on the ambulance, well I had small ambulance but they had quite a few big ins. Because in fact they had another Squadron there besides our Squadron. In fact there were they had just done eh where they dropped them bombs?
AM. Oh Dambusters.
BB. Yeah we must have been at Kelstern when that was on, it was soon after that when we were posted to Scampton.
AM. So it was 617 Squadron the other one then?
BB. Yeah so anyhow.
AM. What was it like being there with, how many women and how many men ‘ish a lot more men than women?
BB. Oh yeah.
AM. So what was it like.
BB. Well it, I don’t know it well you just did a job you were twenty four hours on and twenty four hours off weren’t we. I really, I had a wonderful life. I met me husband I’d been there quite a bit before I met him.
AM. Tell me a bit more about what you did, you drove the small ambulances.
BB. Yes.
AM. And then what or were you just driving the ambulance right through because I’ve got a picture of you here with the.
BB. That was at Binbrook.
AM. Oh was that at Binbrook.
BB. That was me first.
AM. Right
BB. Yeah that was at Binbrook.
AM. So you were an ambulance driver at Scampton.
BB. And I have another one a lovely one it’s in a it’s in a, in fact somebody came knocking at door one day and said we’ve seen your picture in a pub in Cleethorpes. It was me stood agin a van an RAF vehicle and it’s a lovely picture and it was in this on this, and then above there were all women marching, another two pictures. I am on this picture but I can’t remember myself being on it because I couldn’t see properly, but anyhow.
AM. Tell me about meeting your husband then? [unclear]
BB. Well he already got a girl friend.
AM. On the Base.
BB. On the Base and she was a parsons daughter but nurses used to kid me on and they used to say Bessie ‘you can’t have him because.’ But they used to call me Tess, I didn’t get called Bessie ‘you can’t have him because he has got a girl friend.’ I said ‘I’m not bothered but I’ll keep trying.’ Anyhow he went on leave didn’t he and when he was on leave she went out with a Pilot. Well I didn’t tell him but somebody did so I go me, I don’t know how it came about but I got talking to him and eh, and eh he took me to the pictures and it were Pinocchio, they were a picture on camp and we started going out together then and he had to go to Italy ‘cause they went, what did they go for.
AM. Were they dropping propaganda leaflets and stuff like that.
BB. Aye and he came back with a big thing of fruit and he gave it me and then we went home and I met his mum and dad in Bradford. He lived in Bradford.
AM. What was Wally, he was an Air Gunner.
BB. Yeah he got to be Warrant Officer before he, ‘cause there is his warrant up there, aye but when I met him he was a Sergeant. Then he got to be Flight Sergeant then he were. He ended up looking after prisoners of war eh after war finished. I mean he stayed in a bit longer than I did but eh I came out because I were pregnant.
AM. You were married by then?
BB. I loved him and, and so well we had been married all them years.
AM. You had been married sixty five years.
BB. We had a lovely life in RAF because girls used to come and Bessie pluck me eyebrows, Bessie do me hair, they used to say Tess to me like
AM. Tess
BB. I used to have some gloves on and I used to have Tess written on them. I used to be, I used to drive crew buses at Scampton and it [unclear] ambulance job.
AM. So what was driving the crew bus like, what, what was that?
BB. Well, I mean many a time within two minutes, they’d one go off and two minutes after another one, they were two minutes
AM. Oh eh the planes?
BB. Hundreds, loads, fifty, sixty oh and we used to wait at the end of the runway eh no flying control weren’t it. We used to stop against flying, and then we used to sort of go, go and dodge about or what have you and be there when they came back. Used to be watching them but once when I were driving the ambulance and there were planes came back and Germans were following them because they used to have to put runway lights on. If you were driving a crew bus and you were going to pick lads up that were coming back and they used to say ‘be early for me.’ You know didn’t they, used to breathing down your neck and eh [cough] and there would be no lights on. And you would be driving on and you would see this black brrr and you would go on grass. Oh it were mad and I mean, and but it was sad and all weren’t it especially and there used to be seven coffins go out and you know. They used to follow them back did Germans. It were terrible, they were nearly ready for landing.
Unknown male. Yeah when you were in circuit.
AM. The German fighters, fighter planes.
BB. Yeah but I had a lovely life, I enjoyed every bit of it and I loved him all me life.
AM. Good.
BB. I did really.
AM. What did you do after the war, did you come out more or less straight away.
BB. Well I were quite well on with having me baby but eh I’d been in four years and eh and he come out [cough] eh, [pause] mm, I know I had two children, pity me husband was still in he were looking after Italians and and they were brilliant eh they didn’t make no bother for me husband he was in charge of them, in fact they made him a cabinet.
AM. Where was that Bessie?
BB. It was where Terries are, is it Ipswich where we used to go picking because we got into married quarters, I had me baby she was nine month old, he was still in RAF. And eh, and eh and we were in married quarters and we used to be picking these cherries and eh ‘cherries, excuse me.’ Eh but I had lots of jobs really, I didn’t only drive the ambulance and crew bus I had lots of jobs you, you, you were detailed you know they would leave you so long in the ambulance and then you would be so long on this crew bus and then you would probably eh. I used to have different vehicles, vehicles where I could pop in home going through to Sheffield, yeah I did. My mum used to say ‘Oh goodness me there’s our Bessie, look what she’s got that big thing.’ And I used to be in this two, three ton lorry and and you had to jump over wheels. They couldn’t believe it and eh [laugh] she used to, oh it were lovely. I did used to drive lots of different vehicles and of course I got to be LACW that were leading aircraft woman. But I could have been a corporal but you had to go inside and I didn’t want that job, so I never.
AM. You enjoyed the driving?
BB. I did, I loved it and of course me husband he didn’t drive then Wally but eh he had a, he had a motor bike and we used to go up on leave and I used to ride on the back of his motor bike, but when he got out of the forces he went to the School of Motoring and he got a job British School of Motoring. Because he went to Blackpool, Lytham St Annes with RAF. He had to remuster because eh when flying had finished you know. So; but they were happy days.
AM. Lovely, did you drive after the war?
BB. Oh yes it stood me in good stead that because there weren’t many women drivers. Yeah, I got a job as soon as I got me two little ones to school. Me mum used to live nearby because she moved from where we lived and she got near to where I lived an she used to have two children for me.
AM. So what did you do?
BB. I used to drive for eh, eh war veterans and I used to go out selling bread and cakes and what have you and I had a real good job there.
AM. It must have been, so this was in the 1950’s.
BB. Our eh yeah 1947 Jeff were born and Nigel were born in 1946. I didn’t come out while I think. She were born in March and I didn’t come out until the middle of February because I weren’t showing, couldn’t tell.
AM. As long as you weren’t changing wheels.
BB. I’ve still got me pay book and I’ve still got me husbands pay book.
AM. Oh I might have a photograph of them as well.
BB. I know.
AM. That was excellent, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bessie Birkby
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-29
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABirkbyB150729
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Bessie Birkby grew up in Sheffield and volunteered for the Women’s Auxilliary Air Force in 1942. She first worked in Balloon Command in Scotland and then trained to be a driver in North Wales. She was then posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Binbrook but later transferred to RAF Kelstern and worked driving ambulances. She discusses driving the station Medical Officer into Lincoln in the snow and driving crew buses. She developed appendicitis, and had an emergency operation at Louth. Transferred to RAF Scampton, she again drove ambulances and crew buses, she met her husband Wally an air gunner and they were married for sixty five years. She talks about how the station was attacked by night fighters. While in the RAF she managed frequent visits home, sometimes in RAF vehicles. On leaving the Air Force she had three children and worked as a driver selling bakery items.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
Wales--Pwllheli
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:31:39 audio recording
625 Squadron
entertainment
ground personnel
love and romance
medical officer
military living conditions
Nissen hut
RAF Binbrook
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Kelstern
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/478/8360/PBrookM1702.1.jpg
2a32cca0ab606686d2c94b2637f9bf3f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/478/8360/ABrookM170109.1.mp3
00850afc35764d56bc92548f6dbdcad0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brook, Maurice
Dr Maurice Brook
M Brook
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Brook, M
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Maurice Brook (1640523 Royal Air Force), his memoir and a squadron photograph. He flew operations as a navigator with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Maurice Brook and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The Interviewer is David Meanwell, the Interviewee is Mr Maurice Brook and interview is taking place at Mr Brooks’ home in Dorking, Surrey, and today is Monday the 9th of January 2017. If you could start off perhaps by saying a bit about where you were born, grew up and educated, and a bit about your family perhaps.
MB. If you want to be strictly accurate, I suppose it is Doctor Brook, but that’s -
DM. I beg your pardon.
MB. Well I grew up in Yorkshire, went to school in Rothwell, er Rothwell Grammar School and er, to use Rob Wiltons phrase, the day, the day war broke out I was still at school, and I remember our neighbour saying to my mother, ‘well at least your boys too young to be affected’, and how wrong she proved to be because that was 1939, the first year of the war, we were soon into 1940. We had an Air Training Corps formed at school, there was no summer holiday. School stayed open, the boys were spending time with the headmaster at his house learning to shoot, with a view to providing defence as it were. But um, and then we started getting rifles from America on the lease lend I suppose, and we were emptying rifles that were all in grease and degreasing them and making them work. That was a sort of school boy activity for the summer. Er, the eh, then of course we had Dunkirk, and we had wounded, we had a hospital nearby and so wounded soldiers were there, and they used to bring them over to school in the afternoons and the girls used to give them tea and so on. It was a mixed school by the way. And then um, the RAF started a bursary scheme. I got to be a sergeant in the Air Training Corps by then and the scheme was, you could apply for a bursary when you were seventeen, and I managed to persuade my father to sign the forms to sign up for this, and I managed to win a bursary to Christ College Cambridge. Went there when I was under eighteen actually, the condition was that er, you attended the university course for a year. It was a war time year which was of course not the full twelve months, because there was no vacations and you had to be a member of the University Air Squadron, and in effect we did initial flying training during the University Air Squadron period. So I was there and er, we had the Commanding Officer of the Cambridge University Air Squadron was the headmaster of the Lease School at Cambridge, so he had sort of two hats. I suppose we were being taught to be gentlemen or something. Quite amusingly, after the war when I got my, some of my RAF records, I found what the Commanding Officer of the Air Squadron had said about me when I moved on, and er, he said I was rough diamond but I responded well to training [laugh] and I suppose what he meant was, I got quite a strong Yorkshire accent and that sort of, and that menial was not on. Anyway, from the University Air Squadron, I went to the RAF proper and we were moved to Canada for the next stage of training, went to London, Ontario, in the winter, really cold weather and the airfield, the pilots were all civilian pilots. The Instructors were Royal Canadian Air Force instructors, the er, pilots were amazingly good, they would just do what they were told even though it was wrong, even to the extent of running danger. Sometimes people would overfly the Great Lakes because they got the navigation wrong and the pilots would do it and not turn a hair, and of course would have to land in America and come back. Er, I was very impressed actually by the training, it was very thorough, and er, um, in subsequent years the fact that we had a good training in astronavigation, which seemed to be useless at the time, proved to be very valuable as you learn. The er, eventually we graduated, navigators, and I was commissioned in the Royal Canadian Air Force, then had a months leave when I could explore the United States. Back to England, landing at Liverpool and being met by a military band and in both directions, both going out and coming back, we went on big liners like the Aquitania and the Andes, not in convoy but just singly, just zig zagging at high speed across the ocean and er, we had to do drill on board. You know, a cannon, a loose so that you could do some fighting back if a U-boat surfaced, but we made it both ways successfully. Er, Liverpool to Harrogate which was the aircrew reception centre, where most of the hotels had been taken over by aircrew, and I had a temporary job in the post office for a time sorting out missing mail. I can’t remember how long I was, I wasn’t there very long, then up to the advanced flying training unit in Millholme in Cumberland. Because of course, in Canada, although you were taught the rudiments of navigation, there were no black outs, so you could look out and see the illuminated towns. Although you might misinterpret what you were seeing, at least you, you could see towns, but in Millholme and so on, you were working in black out conditions, and also there was the Isle of Man and the Lake District with high mountains which put people on their metal, and ‘cause more than once aircraft crashed into them through not having enough height. That was the initial experience of black out flying and er, in the daytime it was really wonderful, the experience of climbing up through the clouds into the sunshine was one of the exhilarating moments, er, in a young mans life. What I was, what I was only nineteen then and er, where did we go from Millholme, Millholme to operational training units in Husbands Bosworth and there we were brought together, all different aircrew. The first day after we all got settled in, you were in a big mess hall and you just left together and the instructions were to sort yourselves out into crews. There was no sort of detailed selection process and that. I was one of those people that liked to watch what was happening rather than take the initiative, but it wasn’t very long before a rather dapper looking young man, well not young man, he was a middle aged man actually came. He was a commissioned bomb aimer, and said ‘had I got any crew yet?’ and I said ‘no’, he said well he’d tied up with a pilot and would I join them as a navigator? All right, you look all right. And then I met the pilot, Peter, and he seemed all right. He was a young man like me, very young actually, and er, what else did we have in the crew, oh a wireless operator and two gunners. The gunners were survivors of a previous crash and all the rest of the crew had been killed except them and of course it wasn’t uncommon, the, the accident rate in training was quite high. So having formed a crew, we were put onto Wellingtons for quite a long period of training on Wellingtons. And we, and we had the first of the electronic equipment I had as a navigator, a thing called Gee, where you had blip, blips on a screen and transmission stations in the Country sending out signals and you were given special maps, and where the lines intersected you should be able to plot your position exactly. If you were in this country you could, but as you moved further away from Britain of course, the lines, angles became more and more distorted and then the Germans began to jam it so it became very difficult. We completed our operational training reasonably well but we weren’t happy with the pilot, Peter, who was, he was, how can I put it? He was over anxious, he was over stressed, he wasn’t in charge of himself let alone a crew and an example, at take off, we were all wearing oxygen masks but you didn’t have oxygen on at ground level, but he would leave his mask dangling and the microphone was in the oxygen mask and he didn’t switch it off. So when we took off down the runway, the noise of the engines was amplified through his loud speaker and everybody had this noise. And of course, if there had been an emergency, none of us could have communicated. And er, we kept telling him about this and he kept saying he would put it right and he never did. But we got to the last flight of the training and we were given a long detour. During the flying, during the operational training, by the way, we kept having various routes which took us near the Dutch coast or German coast, so you got in touch with searchlights and anti-aircraft guns, but you weren’t carrying any bombs. Erm, only occasionally did anybody get shot down but it gave you a, just a taste of what might be to come. On this last flight it was an absolutely filthy night, it really was dreadful and when we took off from Husbands Bosworth and we had a long route around part of the British Isles, and then we were going North, crossing the Isle of Anglesey and I thought I must be getting something wrong because we seemed to be stationary over the Isle of Anglesey for ages and ages, we weren’t moving. And I kept getting the position from Gee and we were hardly moving but we had a head wind of something like a hundred miles and hour, erm, then we got a call to divert because the weather had obviously closed in at Husbands Bosworth. We diverted to an airfield near Bristol and I worked out the course and got us back to the airfield and Peter the pilot was clearly very stressed by all this, erm, and er, we got to the airfield and he wanted us to bale out, he didn’t think it was safe to land [laugh], that caused some consternation, I couldn’t see why we needed to bale out. Fortunately we had sitting with us, an instructor who had been there from the beginning, hadn’t said a word the whole flight, and at that point he said ‘I’ll take over’. So he took over and landed perfectly well and then the next day we flew back to Husbands Bosworth. We were sent on leave for ten days and when we came back from leave, I talked to Jim, the bomb aimer, who was a commissioned officer and I said, ‘I wasn’t happy about Peter as a pilot’. He said no he wasn’t, and then the two gunners came and they were really twitchy having, you know, already had one crash and they said they couldn’t, they couldn’t fly with Peter. Erm, and the wireless operator who had been a ground operator in er Africa, so he wasn’t immature, he was in his late twenties, he said the same thing and they more or less said, ‘well you are the officers, you have to do something about it’. And er, we went to see the adjutant, somewhat apprehensive because refusing to fly, even although we were volunteers, was quite a serious matter, you were, you know, lack of moral fibre. We weren’t lacking any moral fibre, but we didn’t feel that we had much of a future with Peter, and fortunately when we talked to the adjutant, he said ‘that’s alright, I had a report from the instructor and we think Peter should be held back for some more instruction, and so he will go to the conversion unit and there will be a pilot waiting for you there’. So off we went to Sturgate, which was four engined conversion unit, Halifaxes, where we picked up a flight engineer who was also a pilot, and we were introduced to Dave Lennox, Flight Lieutenant Lennox. Scotsman, such a contrast, he was, he’d been one of the first er, call ups of the [unclear] pre-war conscription and he had gone into a Scottish Regiment. Served in a Scottish Regiment, been in France, been in Dunkirk, risen to the rank of Regimental Sergeant Major very rapidly, and then when he had got back to England, he wanted to remuster as aircrew, and in those days, if you were in a reserved occupation or in any of the other forces, if you wanted to volunteer for aircrew, you had to be released. So he was released and he had gone and trained as a pilot and then he had been kept in er, Canada as an instructor for some time. So he got a lot of flying experience by the time he came to us, and he was, he was so level headed and sort of refreshing. As we did our conversion unit training and very early on, we had reason to be thankful we got him as a pilot because we took off and er, just as we left the ground, he said ‘we’ve burst a tyre’. [Interrupted by telephone call]. We had just left the ground with the burst tyre. We completed the exercise, which I think was a bombing exercise off the Lincolnshire coast, and then came back to land and of course, the problem was landing with a burst tyre was very dangerous. So Dave quite calmly said, ‘take up your crash positions and I am going to come down with the burst tyre on the grass and the other wheel on the runway and we might tip over, but with luck we should make it’. And he did, we made a perfect landing and we came to a halt, no problem. So that reinforced our confidence in Dave. We completed the full er, conversion, these were Halifaxes by the way, which were rather like airliners inside. They were so spacious with the black and white tiled lino on the floor, amazing. Er, we had also more ground instruction, we had dinghy drill, we were taken to the local baths. You had to get up on the top diving board with a pair of dark glasses on and the dinghy was in the pool upside down and you had to jump off the top of the thing and make you way around in the pool and find this dinghy, turn it over, climb into it and then blow your whistle to attract the other crew. Which was valuable training I suppose, but very unpleasant, and various other things like that. Then at some stage, a very curious thing happened, we were taken, some of us, me included, were sent to Hereford, to RAF Regiment place at Hereford. Aircrew Officers Numbr 1, yes, Number One Aircrew Officers School, and we were given a sort of infantry training, er assault course stuff and er, creeping up on enemies and slitting their throats without them making a noise. Being taken out into the Welsh hills and made to jump off the back of moving lorries and find your way back to base. The point of it all was, you know, it wasn’t good for morale, we were told, ‘oh, well, this was so that we could help to defend airfields against invdaders’, you know, we would take charge of the troops but the danger of that had passed, subsequently this became the SAS, so that is what it was all about, they were just trying it out. Anyway er, fortunately, I, I, I got put into hospital [laugh] and became paralyzed with fibrositis through exposure, and I was in hospital for two weeks having physiotherapy and radiotherapy. The only disadvantage of that was the local vicar used to come visiting, and he wouldn’t be persuaded that I was suffering from exposure through something stupid the Air Force had done, you know. I suppose he thought I had come down in the sea or something. Anyway, we got over all that, go back join the team and were posted to 625 Squadron at Kelstern. Er, now when we moved house some years ago, my log book was stolen and for that reason I don’t have an accurate record of what happened, and false memory can be quite intense and yet be false, you know, after seventy years interval, You realise things are not quite what you thought they were. I went to the records office at Kew and looked at the squadron records. Most of them were undecipherable, I just couldn’t make head nor tail of them, so then I employed a couple of er, military experts who were spending a lot of time there, and asked them if they could research the records. They had some difficulty but they did get quite a bit and I could have sworn that we joined the squadron in late ’45, late ’44 rather, certainly before Christmas, but the records show we didn’t, it was early 1945, so that was just one example. They got details of most of the operations which had taken place and I recognised some, not others. There are some that I could have sworn we’d done like Stettin and Frieberg, but again that could be false memory, it’s very curious. The very first operation you would think you’d remember, I don’t remember a thing about it and so it must have gone very smoothly. The second one I certainly do, and that was Nuremburg. Now in 1944 there was a disastrous raid on Nuremburg, March 1944, in which nearly a hundred aircraft were lost, and at one stage they were being shot down at a rate of one a minute, and very few aircraft ever reached Nuremburg. On this occasion we got to the target erm, and [unclear] I was in a little cabin, I didn’t see much unless I got up to look out, but the gunners and the bomber aimer commented that there seemed to be fires lit on the route. So the Germans must have known the route and certainly there was quite a lot of opposition. Anyway, when we got back, we reported this and the briefing officer said ‘oh no, they weren’t fires, those were aircraft burning on the ground’. And in fact that raid, nearly a year after the disastrous one in ’44, had over eight per cent loss, erm ,which was a very sobering introduction for us, for our operational career, made us look at things differently. Erm, well, life on an operational squadron was sleep, briefing, flying again and then intervals of leave inbetween. The way it tended to work was, there would be a tannoy message in the morning that operational aircrew were to remain on base, which meant you might be on operations that night, and then in the Officers Mess, there is a little blackboard called “battleorder”, and it would have the names of the captains and navigators of the aircraft that were likely to be wanted that day, and then if there was a, a raid on, you would be called for briefing about four or five o’clock. Go to the briefing room and er, all sit together, and the station commander and squadron commanders came in and er, there would be a curtain over the wall. The curtain would be pulled aside and the target and the route to the target would be marked, and there would be an intake of breath according to where the target was. Each of the operators would give a, meteorological officers would tell you about the weather, the bomb aimer would give instructions to the bomb aimers, the navigation leader would tell us the things to watch out for and of course, you never went straight to a target, it was always varying turning points, and getting the timing right at the turning points was absolutely vital. Because if you are in the Bomber Stream, and you are thirty seconds late on your turn, when you’ve turned you might be outside the stream and you can be picked off. Er, after the briefing, the rest of the crews used to go out to the aircraft. The navigators would remain behind copying the details of the turning points and the codes for the erm, beacons on the ground. In this country there would be beacons and sometimes the Underground would be going to be have flashing beacons, which weren’t reliable, but if you knew and you knew a code, they might be useful to you. Then we picked up our stuff and were taken out to the plane, by which time the engines had started, and you taxied out onto the runway one after the other and took off and then you would climb and probably have half an hour or more to kill, and you would tootal up and down England or go look at your home area or something like that and usually we collected around Reading, that was a very common meeting point and then the stream would begin to assemble over Reading and then go out very often, go out to Beachy Head, would be our next turning point, then you cross across to the Enemy coast. Er, from that point on, I would navigating and I would give the pilot er, the compass course which he would follow. We had in the aircraft, and it was Lancasters by then, an air position indicator, which showed the exact position you were in the air, or at least in the exact position you would be on the ground, if in the air, there was no wind [laugh]. But of course, the vital part about navigation is to work out the wind and the extent to which it moved you and we also had an erm, a thing called Gee for operators, which was a mobile transmitter which sent beams down to the ground and then they rebounded and er, you got a picture on the screen, an illuminated screen, reflecting objects on the ground like lakes, towns, small hamlets erm, on a very good set, railway lines. Actually, a photographic interpretation officer on the squadron showed me how to spot the railway lines. I didn’t believe you could do it but she said you could and showed me how to do it and we had special maps, which were coloured to match what you would see on the screen. We also had the Gee but it was heavily jammed and it was very difficult to be precise, so I had to rely most of the time on the radar things and when we came up to turning points, I would give the captain a new course but count down to the turning point, so we got it, you know, absolutely precise to the second, and we managed to stay in the stream most of the time. When you were in the dark in the Bomber Stream, the crew used to be happy if the plane felt as though it was running over tarmac, you know, because that meant you were in the slipstream of the aircraft in front and the first time we realised how close we were, was when we did our first daylight raid. I mean, very often in the dark, the wireless operator used to have a trailing aerial, a long copper aerial, but it was frequently cut off by the propellers of an aircraft behind us, er, and then, as we approached target, it would usually be marked by Pathfinders, the bomb aimer would take over and er, he would then, there would be those tense moments as you approach the target when he was totally in charge. He was flying, supposed to fly a steady, left, left, right, right and steady and that seemed to go on interminably. There was searchlights around and you were hoping they’d miss you, and then you felt the bombs go, ‘cause the plane would jump and after the bombs gone, it was still steady for another thirty seconds or so while they took photographs. Then I would have given the captain the course away from the target, he could turn and get on the way. Now of course, it didn’t always go as smoothly as that, there was searchlights and anti-aircraft. If you got caught in searchlights, then they used to do a manoeuvre, steep dive and corkscrew, and your guts used to come up into your mouth and then pull out of it again, or if the gunners thought they had spotted a night fighter, they again would call out corkscrew left or right, according to which way they thought you should go, the same thing would happen, we managed that all right. On one occasion, we had a major from an anti-aircraft unit in this country who was flying with us, ‘cause he was supposed to be studying the German anti-aircraft defences, and he was beside me but with his head out of the astrodome, watching. And it so happens we got caught in searchlights, and the Germans had a system in some areas where they had a blue searchlight, which was presumably radar operated and if the blue searchlight got you, then five or six others came on immediately, you were absolutely coned and that happened to us, and Dave again did a steep dive, he got us out of it, back again and then wee tackled the target and there was quite heavy ant-aircraft fire. Anyway when we got back, this major [laughs], major had gone very quiet [laugh], he said he didn’t know how we could do that night after night. I think he got the information he wanted. I don’t know precisely how many trips we did because these records even when the experts were confusing. We didn’t, we didn’t do a tour but I seem to remember us being pleased, we done half a tour, so er, er, and there is records show something approaching that number anyway.
DM. How many would that have been?
MB. The full tour would have been thirty, half the tour would have been fifteen. One memorable, well there were several memorable ones, but one was Kiel. We were detailed to lay mines in Kiel harbour and so we flew with the main force which was attacking some other place, Bremen or Hamburg I don’t know which, and then we broke away to Kiel, and I had to navigate to a land mark in Kiel harbour so the bomb aimer could take over at that point, and then he had to fly a straight and steady course for a certain time and then drop the mines. And of course a lone plane in Kiel harbour, with all the ships there, was just a sitting target, searchlights and anti-aircraft, everything being shot at us. Erm, but we did, we dropped the mines and we got away from Kiel, but soon afterwards one of the engines had obviously been hit and had to be feathered as they say, it stopped working and soon after that, another engine went. That meant I had no electricity for the radar operations, the problem was, you know, well how do we get back home [laugh] navigation wise? And er, it was at that point I was thankful for the astronavigation training in Canada. Er, it was a cloudy night but I got in the astrodome and looked and occasionally you could see stars, and I always took a sextant with me, so I got my sextant out and I could identify, eventually identify what I was pretty sure was the pole star. And the wireless operator, his cabin, his bit was next door to me, I got him to do the precise timing on the watch and I took the shots on the pole star and then I always carried books of tables, and you could look up in the tables and an angle and a time, and it would tell you roughly, well tell you precisely what latitude you should be at. That gave us at least a latitude and I reckoned if you keep North, keep North of Heligoland, which was heavily defended and er, keep on the right latitude, hit England eventually. So we proceeded that way, as far as the rest of crew were concerned everything was ok, I didn’t tell them I got problems. Erm, and er, we were slowly descending so I was also trying to work out by dead reckoning, applying the last wind that I knew was reliable, points where we might come down in the sea, so that the wireless operator could send the message if need be. Anyway we proceeded and eventually we hit the East Anglian coast and the bomb aimer recognised where we were, and we tootaled off and landed successfully back at base, relief all round. And then another occasion I remember, we had a long flight into Romania I think it was, no, Czechoslovakia, a place called Plowen, and oil refiners in Plowen, and er, we must have been running short of fuel coming back. We got back, we just got to the end of the runway and the engines stopped, we were completely out of fuel [laugh], so that was another lucky escape. Er, on the whole we did all right, the er, two memorable ones when we were put onto daylight raids, a couple of when, of when we had a big fighter escort. That was quite impressive, American and RAF fighters in the daylight alongside erm, and er, I think Hamburg. The fighters left us after we had gone some distance but nevertheless it was nice to see them there. But there was heavy anti-aircraft fire and er, the gunners said something about the next plane had been hit and I got up in the astrodome and looked, and there was a Lancaster at the side of us and it was just flying normally, and erm, black smoke came out of one of the engines and then it slowly tilted on its side, and you could see flames developing and nobody came out of it. And then it started slowly descending and after a while, you saw the three people came out but they were on fire, and I didn’t see the parachutes open, so that was a bit of a shake up and went back to navigating [sad laugh]. Sunday morning, I think Hamburg, not Hamburg, Hanover, and I remember as we approached the target thinking, well, Sunday morning, well they will be going to church or coming back from church, at least they will get plenty of warning and they can get into shelters. And we left Hanover after bombing it, with a big cloud and black smoke going up in the sky. Ah, so you did think about the people as well. Then we had a curious, not curious in a way, but an unusual one in daylight, to a place called Nordhausen, which has come back to haunt me actually. It was in Eastern Germany and we were given the job of attacking the barracks, when we got there, it was ten tenths cloud. Not quite ten tenths cloud but as we approached the target erm, this cloud came over and the bomb aimer couldn’t see to drop the bombs. So we went round again and I could see on my Gee, my H2S screen, the radar screen, I could see the ground and I could see the barracks, and I had a bomb release on my cabin, so I took over at that point and guided Dave and made a few calculations about wind and so on, and then dropped the bombs on what I thought would be the right spot visually on the radar screen. And afterwards photographic reconnaissance showed that the barracks had been hit and destroyed, or heavily destroyed. Erm, some years afterwards, there was a letter in the Bomber Command Magazine from a film producer in Germany, saying that he would like to make contact with any aircrew who had taken part in this raid, so I made contact. And eventually he came to the house and did a recording, and he was making a film called “The Last Survivors”, and er, the story of Nordhausen was that it was an ordinary medieval town, untouched by war [telephone rings], medieval town in Germany, untouched by war, not particularly Nazified. And you remember after the raids on Peenemunde, when the rocket sights were destroyed, well within six weeks, I think the Nazis had moved rocket production into caves outside Nordhausen, and they were using slave labour and they were producing eventually, very quickly producing eighty V2 rockets a day, apparently with this labour force which was worked to death and of course, London was being threatened at that time. We were not told at briefing about any rocket production in Nordhausen, and I notice the record, the Bomber Command records about Nordhausen say it was raided because it had become, it was, they were moving ministries from Berlin to Nordhausen, but rockets certainly were being produced. When the film producer from Germany came and did an interview with me, and I found out he was a Nordhausen resident, or his family was, and he was making a film called “The Last Survivors”, and he said they had been producing these rockets with slave labour after Peenemunde for some time, and the day after the raid, production stopped. But it probably stopped because the workers were demolished and they were housed in the barracks which I had been responsible for bombing, and apparently there had been eighteen hundred of them killed. Er, I expressed some concern about this, and he said, ‘You shouldn’t, the Nazis had killed far more than that already’. That’s this war. Since then, he has produced, German television produced a film called “Hitler’s Rocket Factory” and that went out last year, and the interview that he did with me and some other aircrew is in that film. Curiously there’s a twist in the film, the film as produced in Germany says that when the raid took place, rocket production had ceased because of the damage to the communications that had been taking place, so was there a gloss that the Germans had put on it or was the chap who did the film who came from Nordhausen accurate, you know, er, and the Nordhausen film is in German. I think it ought to be in the Bomber Command records at er, Lincoln, I didn’t tell them about it and it could be copied. Do you know any German? That was Nordhausen erm, and then er, I can’t remember, oh of course, yes, as we got towards the end of the war, the Germans, the Dutch people were starving and they, they er, the Germans were approached and asked if they would allow Army lorries that were in the British zone to go through with food, and they refused. So then it was decided that an air drop would be attempted, and the Germans again were told, ‘We are going to do an air drop with Lancasters’, and would they give them safe passage, and they refused to give them safe passage, and so we were told at briefing. But when the Royal Army Service Corps came and the bomb bays of the Lancasters were filled with food supplies [laugh], and then we were given a briefing where we were to drop the food, and we were told that the Germans had refused safe passage, but we were not to take any offensive action unless we were fired on. And then er, the food had to be dropped at very low level, and we were told, I am sure we were told [emphasis] at briefing, fifty feet. The official records of the Operation Manna as it was called, says the food was dropped at four hundred feet but I have seen other people who say that it was fifty feet. And I distinctly remember as we flew along very low, looking up out of the astrodome and seeing the church spire, so it was fifty feet. But er, the people were out in the streets, we were so low you could identify anyone in the streets, the children were out waving, it was very touching, and we used to get chocolate as an aircrew ration and we made little parachutes with handkerchiefs and the rear gunner used to throw them out of the back and the kids used to pick them up. We flew over some German machine gun posts and we could see them swinging their guns round but they didn’t fire and then on the airfield, I think it was the racecourse initially at Gouda, we dropped and the underground people were waiting on the, and they then ran across and picked up the supplies and took them away. Then er, we came away, very low of course, and there was one of these sea frets developing so it was misty and er, we were climbing away but there was a huge flash in front of us. When we got back to base we reported this, we were told that the aircraft in front of us had flown into the sea. Presumably they didn’t, hadn’t got a good horizon or the altimeter was faulty, and then I did a, I think I did a second food drop er, with an Australian crew whose navigator was ill, and I volunteered to go with them. Similar experience except that they were, they seemed to delight in flying even lower [laugh] all the way there and all the way back, they were quite frightening. That was Operation Manna, since then I met Dutch people when we had been on holiday who were children at the time and they are so grateful. And we there was a commemoration of the operation at Lincoln two years ago and the Dutch had planted a lot of bulbs in commemoration of it and we were there. Any surviving aircrew were there and there were some ladies there from Holland came round, insisted on kissing us all. One of them was a little girl at the time you know, she said, ‘you saved my life’. Her uncle had already died of starvation, she was a little girl and she was close to it so we did something useful. And then of course the war had come to an end and er, we had a trip to Brussels airport to pick up released prisoners, our prisoners who had been released from prisoner of war camps and we packed them in the back of a Lancaster and had to give them a lecture, you know, ‘don’t move, mustn’t move because you upset the trim of the aircraft, you could crash’, and er, we were all right, we came back to, I think it was Dunsfeld, and unloaded. But obviously one aircraft, the people had moved and it crashed, and all the prisoners and crew were killed. I mean so dreadful at the end of the war, yeah, so [pause]. [unclear]. When the war ended the RAF were very good at introducing education and training courses and er, I eventually was put in charge of the work at Scampton. We were running all kinds of educational courses using people in the force who had been, you know, teachers and things like that, and we were running dress making classes for the WAAF and we could get aircraft, you know, parachute silk from stores and there were quite a few wedding dresses were being made [laugh] there. We had workshops, carpentry workshops using some of the old tables, people were making themselves coffee tables and so keeping people occupied and that was quite fun. We had an education centre which eventually I was in charge of, taking daily newspapers and of course, the ‘forty five election was coming up, and er, I was called into the Station Commanders Office, the group captain, who was very concerned because we got the Daily Mirror in the education centre [laugh]. So I really had to point out to him that it was a perfectly legitimate newspaper, you know, it wouldn’t look good, it wasn’t the Daily Worker it was a respectable newspaper and it was valued by the troops. So I got away with that one [laugh] so he left me alone I think, um, yes.
DM. Did you fly any more after that?
MB. The squadron was on stand by for Tiger Force, which would mean going to Japan, or going to the Far East, but of course the Japanese war brought that to an end, so I didn’t fly any more after we brought the prisoners back. I was doing this education job really, running er, quite a big unit actually. Then I was offered promotion to er, squadron leader if I would do it for the group, but that would mean signing on for staying longer and I had no particular interest in doing that. I wanted to get out and get on with my own education which had been disturbed severely. But er, it was interesting.
DM. When were you demobbed?
MB. Mm?
DM. When were you demobbed?
MB. 1947, yes, we got married in ’46 and I was still in the Air Force then, I was kept. Because they had a points system and of course, if you were very young, which I was erm, in a sense, it counted against you. So I got out in ’47 and I was er, I went to, I got a place at Nottingham University in October, started in October ’47. So I came out in early ’47 I think and I had a temporary teaching job in Nottingham er, for several months before I went to university.
DM. What did you read at university?
MB. I did biological sciences and er, there was the food and agricultural organisation, [unclear] and so on, and that was the area that interested me. I had been doing engineering at Cambridge, I didn’t want to go back and do that and I er, so I did biological sciences which was quite worthwhile actually. Eventually got a job with the Boots company, which is in Nottingham, doing agricultural and horticultural research for some years. Then I joined Beecham group down South when we were about to move, we got a family by then, and spent the rest of my career with the Beecham group. Eventually became Director of Research of the consumer products group. It’s surprising how many times the little things you learn en route were put to use. Er, certainly, I think the RAF and the RAF training taught me that you can train people to do jobs with which they are totally unfamiliar, if you organise the training properly. Brilliant er, the training that was organised in wartime, yes.
DM. Did you maintain any contact with the crew?
MB. No, we had little contact but not much after the war, we all went our separate ways, we’d enough, er, yes, no real contact, and Dave the pilot, he eventually went to Glasgow University, and in fact he did study engineering and er, the bomb aimer, who was the oldest in the crew, he was in his thirties, he had work, he had been with Unilever before the war. He went back to Unilever and then we lost touch with one another. Er, I have never been one for “old boys” units really and that was the phase of life, it was over, you have got to get on with the next phase and I got married in ’46, my wife had been in the Army, Signals, and then we had children. We got other things to occupy our time with, it took all our time and energy catching up on a career and on life and so on.
DM. Have you found as you have retired that your thoughts have gone back more to those days?
MB. In, well in two ways, you hear a lot about post traumatic stress and I went, I have been to a number of lectures with a psychiatrist because we have a mentally handicapped son. So I got involved on that side of it and got fairly heavily involved with the Royal College of Psychiatrists and so on and I remember going to one lecture, and the psychiatrist who was talking about post traumatic stress, and he put on the black board all the symptoms and the treatments you should adopt. So I said to him, ‘well, you have got one or two symptoms there which I have every day, but I don’t think they interfere with my life. I suggest it is biological adaptation that enables you to cope’. you know, things like flash backs and so on that you are not looking for, and they just come. And er, he was flummoxed he, he didn’t quite know how to deal with it, I hope he has thought about it since. But it’s true and I have talked to other ex-aircrew who have said the same thing. Then my children, not so much but certainly my grandchildren began agitating, you know? We, both of us, both my wife and I, ‘what did you do during the war? You never talk about it. We like to know, we ought to know, we ought to know what you were doing when you were our age’. So eventually, under pressure from my brother-in-law as well, I did write a sort of retrospective for them. So they all know what I wrote five years ago anyway, my thoughts at the time and recollections and experiences, which in fact, I think they found useful er, [pause] but otherwise until they started, tried to establish the Bomber Command Centre at Lincoln, because I had always regretted there wasn’t a proper recognition in the work of Bomber Command. I mean, after Dresden and so on er, and politicians had become a dirty word and they didn’t use it, didn’t refer to it. Churchill talked about Fighter Command saving the country, and Bomber Command bringing victory was forgotten about, but we got the memorial in Green Park, we did go to the opening of that. That is more of what I call a State Memorial, but it’s suitable, it’s appropriate and it is visited a lot. But the one at Lincoln is more important, Tony Wright, who was, his name the [unclear] representative in Lincoln, anyway he was the one who had the idea, because there was so many airfields in Lincoln, and it was responded to very vigorously by most aircrew who helped to raise funds for it, and I think it is the ideal memorial. Because there is the memorial spire which is the wing span of a Lancaster, but more important around it are the metal columns, on which are engraved the names of all the aircrew who didn’t come back, over fifty thousand of them, which does make people appreciate the extent and the sacrifice. And then the memorial garden with soil in it from each of the airfields, and most important of all, the educational centre with the sort of thing you are doing and er, other records will be valuable for the future. Particularly as it is going to include input from German sources, which is what’s required. Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dr Maurice Brook Interview
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Meanwell
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-09
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABrookM170109, PBrookM1702
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Description
An account of the resource
Maurice grew up Rothwell in Yorkshire, joining the Air Training Corp, and going into the Royal Air Force after spending time with Cambridge University Air Squadron at the age of 18. He completed his pilot training in Canada before going to the Advance Flying Training unit in RAF Millom, Cumberland. Maurice then tells of meeting up with his crew in RAF Husbands Bosworth, of several incidents with his Pilot and his training on Handley Page Halifaxes. He was then posted to RAF Sturgate, flying in Halifaxes and collecting a new pilot, who managed to land the aircraft after a tyre burst. Maurice was then posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, flying Lancasters, and he tells of some of his operations and his memories of the losses of other aircraft. He tells of an operation to Nordhausen where they were to bomb a V2 rocket site, and his encounter with a German film maker who was making a documentary about the attack called “The Last Survivors”. Maurice completed 15 operations including a mine laying operation to Kiel Harbour and the oil refineries at Plowen, and he tells how he used his astronavigation training after power had gone to his radar. He also took part in Operation Manna, dropping food supplies to the people of Holland. After the war, Maurice went to University to do Biological Studies and then he got a job with Boots company in Nottingham doing Agricultural and Horticultural research before joining the Beecham Group, where he help the position of Director of Research of the Consumer Products Group.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:03:20 audio recording
625 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
coping mechanism
crewing up
Gee
H2S
Halifax
memorial
military service conditions
mine laying
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Kelstern
RAF Millom
RAF Scampton
RAF Sturgate
searchlight
training
V-2
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/556/8823/PSimpsonF1704.1.jpg
22f1f865aaf067d83ac0ed4ccaaead0c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/556/8823/ASimpsonF170203.2.mp3
b8670d24350b5312beb4fd19619e88c8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/556/8823/PSimpsonF1702.1.jpg
be995746799db7a565e8e42298221c4c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Simpson, Frank
F Simpson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Simpson, F
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Frank Simpson (1924 - 2019, 2203970 Royal Air Force) his log book, service and release book and photographs. He flew operations as a mid-upper gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Simpson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Frank Simpson was born in Manchester and volunteered for the RAF. After training as an Air Gunner in Wellington’s, he transferred to Lancasters and then was posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, Lincolnshire. Flying as a Mid/Upper Gunner on several operations including Kiel, 9 April 1945, during which the German Heavy Cruisers Admiral Scheer was sunk and Admiral Hipper damaged. Over Potsdam, 14 April 1945. his aircraft was caught in a searchlight for seven minutes. Frank also took several flights over Holland as part of Operation Manna. Leaving the RAF as a Sergeant and starting as an electrician.
Andrew St. Denis
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Suzanne Pescott. I’m interviewing Frank Simpson today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Frank’s home and it’s the 3rd of February 2017. Thank you Frank for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Dave Simpson, Frank’s son. And Frank’s daughter Cath. Ok. So, Frank first of all then do you want to talk about what made you join the RAF. What was life like before?
FS: Well, when the war kicked off all the young fellas I think, well ninety percent of them, who would join up somewhere and I went — oh you wasn’t with me. It was my dad that was with me then. I’m forgetting. Went to Manchester and there was a place there where you could volunteer. RAF you know and what have you. And I said I ‘d like to join the RAF and he says, ‘How old are you?’ I said, ‘I’m fifteen.’ He said, ‘You can come back when you’re sixteen.’ So that’s what I did but at that time army, navy and air force all had [pause] like Scouts and I joined the RAF one, you know and other fellas joined the navy ones. And other fellas joined the army ones. And they all had bits of uniforms and also on some of them, especially on the one I was in they had bombs — not bombs [pause] trumpets. And drums. So, I played a drum when I was in the, you know, before that. Yeah. So, I became a drummer and every Sunday I went and we all met in a place. A church wasn’t it? I think. Something like that. And talked about things. You know. And then the following week we’d go back again and they’d ask us questions and the vicar would ask questions and it was a freezing church. And there was three people in the church. Two of them coughing their heads off and it was freezing in the church as well, you know. A bit of a silly thing to say really isn’t it that but, but anyway I eventually got called up. Down to London I think it was. Yeah. Down to London. To the place that — tennis. There was a tennis place in London. And that had been taken over by the RAF. So, we went into there and of course inside a couple of days all the clothes had been taken off and we’d all been given new uniforms and things and then they sent the clothes home to the house where we lived at that time. Still got it upstairs I think. Yeah [laughs] No, but we had a good time there and we were there four or five weeks. Going around London was very very interesting because we’d never been to London before, you know and they started taking us around. And then we went — people with posh houses took us in for tea which was amazing and at that particular time the house we went to was a lovely house. Four or five storeys you know. And we went in and there was what looked to me a little square thing. And I said, ‘What’s that?’ She said, ‘Oh you won’t know anything about it. It’s called a TV.’ You know. An early TV and it wouldn’t turn on because it had started just before the war and then when the war came in they had to turn it all off but I actually saw the little — it was about seven inches square, you know. When you look at this thing now. But it was all enjoyable down there and we did all sorts of things and we met. They all gave us uniforms of course and shoes and I think we had hats. Yes. We had the flat hats, you know. But we did that and then they sent us out to various places during the sort of twelve months of our first try there and it was various schools and restaurants. Not restaurants. Schools mainly. And some of us of course — or some of the fellas, not lads, weren’t particularly interested in schools when they went to school. So they just went there and when they were fourteen they left but I was quite interested in schools and I used to make things as you know. I even had a little telly — camera when I was ten years of age. Taking pictures with a camera at that age. But it was a good thing. We went around to various places and stayed in various people’s houses because there was no room for us. That was over in the other side of the country now, that. But apart from that everything went on and then eventually we were sent to Scotland. To the place where they played golf and we spent six or eight months there, something like that, and learned an awful lot about flying which was a good thing. And when we came back, when we finished there they sent all of us to Heaton Park. Now, I was the only one at Heaton Park who knew where it was. And so, after we’d been there three or four days I went to see one of the officers there and said, ‘What’s happening here?’ You know. He said, ‘Well, we’re waiting for boats to take you to America or Canada or South Africa’ he says but we, you know. And I thought boats to go to places like that. Not for me. ‘What else is there?’ And he said, ‘We’re short of air gunners.’ So, I said, ‘Put my name down as an air gunner.’ And a few days later, it’s a shame really because I was at Heaton Park then and I could come home every night and see my little sweetheart couldn’t I? That’s her up there. And anyway, they sent me to South Wales and I became an air gunner in South Wales after about six or eight weeks. And they sent me then to Heaton Park again I think. And eventually from Heaton Park I was sent out to a squadron I think. Oh. Not a squadron. It wasn’t a squadron but it was to do with aircraft. I was already in the aircraft. Gunners weren’t much. It was the fellas in the aircraft. The pilots and navigators and bomb aimers that were doing the work or the training. We only sat there, you know, waiting in case some Germans come at night time which they did. They’d fly over from the continent because they were only twenty five mile away, you know. But, we had a good time there and eventually we got sent to a place the other side the country which was near the water which you flew over to get to Germany and places like that. And we — it was a terrible place. Do you remember going there with us Dave? I can’t remember what it was called but you took us years after didn’t you? And it was falling to pieces but eventually after that, after a few weeks there they sent us down to the big one in Yorkshire. In [pause] not Yorkshire. God.
SP: At Lincoln? In Lincoln.
FS: Lincoln.
SP: Lincoln
FS: Sent us to Lincoln there. And I thought that’s it. Yeah. So, from there we were very happy. We got up every day or every two or three days and flew over somewhere, you know. Practicing this was because I was ok just sat in there — me and the other gunner but the navigators and the people like that they had to train in the plane. But we had a good time there, you know. Come down to Lincoln and a couple of pounds — a couple of shillings in your pocket you could have a pint of beer which was very handy because I didn’t drink much then anyway. I don’t drink much now. No. But they was good days and then eventually they sent us out to — well we stayed there, where we were and we started flying to Germany from there, you know and coming back of an evening and it was very nice. If you got back in time you could go to the town itself in Lincoln and have a couple of beers. All part of life in those days. But eventually the war came to an end and on that particular day it was the worst thing I’ve ever seen in my life. We flew over Berlin — literally just above the houses and looking through the windows on the floor was hundreds and hundreds of dead people. Little boys, little girls, mothers and fathers all, all over the place. And also, at the same time the Russians were there doing the same thing and the Americans were there doing the same thing and it was about the worst. It’s a thing I can never forget. Seeing all these little babies, little lads, little, even parents bent up, twisted up, bowled over and stood on, you know. Heart-breaking really but it happened and then we turned back and came home. Then we were sent around various places in England because when we got back to England after the war had finished Canadians, Americans, South Africans they were on the boat going home inside a week. So, all the lads from England and that — they were put in tents in farms to sleep there for a few days till they knew what they were going to do with them and where they were going to send you too. But it was, it was ok you know and we used to go to the local villages and the ladies in the local villages would always give us a cake or, you know something like that which were very very good. And then we were sent to various places because they didn’t know what to do with us. And I was sent down to South Wales to be [pause] I can’t remember what it was but it didn’t suit me and they said oh that’s ok Mr, you know, sergeant as they called us. ‘We’ll find somewhere else to send you.’ And they sent us over then to the other side of the country. What’s it called? God I can’t remember now. Right on the coast. A place where you can go on holidays and all that sort of caper. I can’t remember the name but they sent us there and I learned to type, type there because everything there you know, they’d teach you how to type and I used to type anything that they wanted. And eventually I come home on, you know, on a leash as you might say and I was taken back after a week and at one time they shouted us and said that, ‘We’re going to have to ask you to do something.’ Well, sergeant as it was then. So I said, ‘What is it?’ And he said, ‘We’ve got a man here we’ve got to take over to a prison.’ So that was good that. Just what you wanted wasn’t it? A fella going, ferrying someone over to prison. Anyway, he was a coloured fella had been over here shortly. One of the lads that had come over later on, you know. Anyway, we took him over to his prison and then came back home and started working at the place I was going — learning how to type. Going around places and measuring up for whether they had space for us. And then I was sent to Blackpool before I came out of the air force altogether and spent quite a few weeks in Blackpool. And living, not here but in Manchester. Salford I should say. We used to go dancing in there and going in to the Blackpool Tower, you know. It was a smashing place to go in to in those days. And having a glass of beer I think because we didn’t have much money. And then after about two or three weeks got called in to a place full of overcoats and trousers and shirts and socks. So they gave us a new pair of trousers and new shirts and all well you know all sorts of brand new stuff. New shoes. New socks. New shirts and a nice black suit. And they said, ‘Well you can go home now when you’re ready Frank.’ I said , ‘Well what time is it?’ He said, ‘It’s half past four.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ll leave it ‘til tomorrow.’ Which I did and came home the following day and my little sweetheart was all ready for me then. We didn’t get married then though did we ‘cause we had no money. Yeah. But that’s about it love from the air force point of view. Now, is that any use?
SP: That’s really good, Frank. So –
DS: One thing you didn’t mention was when you did the drops over Holland. The food drops.
FS: Oh that’s right. Yeah. The war was just finishing and we flew over Holland. Just literally over the roofs of the towns. And we took food with us. Well, they supplied food. You know. The air force. And we dropped it to them. Into schoolyards. And then the following day we did the same again but they were all out. All the young kids. They were only about six or seven. All with their big, “Thank you.” “Thank you RAF.” You know. And that was a good thing. And then we moved after that for a while into some farm land and we were dropping food to the farmers then. You know, for the farmers as well as the people themselves and that was another good — good day I think. Something to remember. You know. But the war had finished then and that was about it. Well nothing else apart from coming out of the air force which I did eventually. Came out and they gave us a suit. Well I just told you that didn’t I? A suit and trousers. But then I came home and the day I got home the fire wasn’t in at home because my dad he was working and my mum was — she was [pause] so I had to go around the corner to a coal place and get a coal wagon weighing about two tons, a half a hundred weight in it, and push it over and light the fire, you know. A little bit of happiness but it was, they were good days those, after that. Good days and good nights. But there was four of us in the family and I used to bath on Saturday night. My dad was first, my sister second, somebody else third and I was fourth. All in a little tin bath thing. You know a bath. And it was bloody freezing by the time I got in there you know. Even though it was in front of the fire. But it was good days those and then I eventually found my little sweetheart again and we got married. Ooh a long time after didn’t we? Yeah. A long time after. But she died two years ago unfortunately with cancer. But I’m still here with Alzheimer’s. Have you heard of Alzheimers? Yes. Good. And it doesn’t do anything. I’m quite happy. Happy as a lark. It doesn’t bother me. Alzheimer’s. Wherever I am. So — and apart from that I’ve enjoyed my life. I’ve got a nice little house and don’t drive a car any more. I just have my nice glass of wine with my evening meal, you know. But apart from that we’re getting towards the end I think. Anything else you can think of dear? Not really no. No. You understand that don’t you?
SP: Frank. What did you do after the war? So obviously you came out.
FS: Oh I came out.
SP: What job did you go to after the war?
FS: I was an electrician. And I remember going to a place in Manchester. I did a lot of sockets, you know. Put a lot of sockets in because at that time TV wasn’t coming — it had just started to come out and nobody had a socket on the wall to plug in. so being an electrician I did quite a few of those jobs for people and I think I charged them a half a crown or something like that. Which, a half a crown was a lot of money in those days. And I think I also — I can’t remember what else I did. I did one or two jobs but the electrician was the one I stayed with. And I can’t remember what the others were now. They were jobs that I did for people.
DS: You used to do lots of other electrician jobs for local authorities.
FS: Oh electrical. Yeah. People would come to me and say can you do this and can you do that?
DS: And you used to take me and you would send me under the floor when you were rewiring houses.
FS: That’s right. That’s right. For rewiring. To get the cable.
DS: To get the cable up for it.
FS: That’s when we used to cut the floor didn’t we?
DS: Yeah.
FS: And then drop you under there. Yeah. Oh aye.
DS: [unclear]
FS: I gave you half a crown didn’t I?
DS: I think you might have done. Yeah. And then, and then you went into printing. You became an engraver.
FS: An engraver.
DS: [unclear]
FS: Became an engraver. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Making the, you made the metal plates didn’t you? And then printed them on to paper. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. Whatever it was for. Yeah. That was good. That was another good thing that. Yeah.
DS: You stayed doing that. You stayed as an engraver until you retired.
FS: Yeah. I was. That’s right. Yeah. I retired then. Retired. And happy ever since. Yeah. Now, is that enough love?
SP: Thanks for that Frank. Ok Frank. Do you want to tell me about where you were based during the war?
FS: Well the first place was Kelstern is it? That was Kelstern where I were first sent. That was when I was trained. But before I trained I was in Scotland. And I don’t know whether I’ve mentioned this have I? Have I?
DS: St Andrews.
FS: St Andrews. Yeah. I’ve not mentioned this before. Oh, so went up to Scotland. They sent us all over, all over the country. To schools and all sorts of places doing silly, well not silly things but things that was interesting and I can’t remember what they were but we went up to Scotland and we did quite a lot of training up there for flying. And that was at a big Scottish place. I can’t remember the name of it now.
DS: St Andrews.
FS: St Andrews and we was there for five or six — five months I think. Something like that. Training and going out on to the actual golf course and training on there to do things which was necessary you know. But eventually that finished and we came to Heaton Park. Have I mentioned Heaton. I’ve mentioned that so —
DS: And you got crewed up at Heaton Park.
Cath: Yeah.
DS: You met your crew.
FS: That’s right yeah.
SP: Do you want to talk about crewing up at Heaton Park?
FS: Oh of course.
SP: Yeah.
FS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me think a little moment. Was it at Heaton Park where I crewed up? [pause] Oh, I think that was Scotland. No.
DS: No. That was Heaton Park.
FS: Heaton Park. Anyway, I went to Heaton Park which was ideal because I lived close by and could get the tram of a morning and get there for 7/8 o’clock I think and did a lot of training in there. How to do this. How to do that. And which was very good. We’d done previously in other places but they always kept up on there. Guns and things, you know. But we stayed there for a while and then have I said anything about going to South Wales? Yes. Oh well that would be it then.
DS: What do you remember about crewing up at Heaton Park when all the gunners were together and all the navs were together and you all became a crew? [pause] Ollie, the skipper, came around and said, ‘We’re looking for gunners,’ and —
FS: Was that Heaton Park? Oh, well that’s possible. Yeah. Heaton Park. That was when I was stationed close at Heaton Park. It was very convenient for me to get home of an evening which they’d let me do you know and get back there for 8 o’clock in the morning which was ideal for my little lady then. But we did pick people up. Literally, put you in a big, a large area with ten aircraft. Not aircraft. Ten people who flew aircraft.
DS: Pilots.
FS: Ten or twelve people who did something else and then the gunners etcetera etcetera. Eight of them. Eight of them altogether. Seven or eight. Yeah. And we picked each other up then and we went over to them and said to the skipper, the pilot and we said, ‘Are you alright for two gunners?’ He said, ‘Certainly.’ And he was a Canadian. A good lad. And he was an old fella. He was thirty, you know. And — but he used to send, or his parents used to send cigarettes and chocolate from Canada. And my old, my dad smoking cigarettes. He’s not here now. Smoked too many cigarettes. And chocolates they’d send over and he’d give them to us you know. So, I’d bring them home and give them to my little sweetheart and we couldn’t be wrong. But that was a good day when we did all that and then we started flying with each other. Sitting in the areas where you were and then they’d take off and you had to do a bit of moving around with, you know, with your guns and that but we didn’t fire but we got used to doing what things were. And that was a good idea too so —
DS: Can you remember the name of the plane?
FS: Ollie’s Bus. Ollie. The pilot was called Ollie something so, we called it Ollie’s bus, you know. And they were all nice, good lads in there. Canadians and there was an American lad in there. And when we went out for a drink, for a beer, of a night-time we didn’t have any money but he went out, you know and sat in a pub but they’d, there was a lot of Yanks where we were down south, they’d just started coming over from America. And the fella we was with was American. He’d leave us and go over to his mates straight away. Which was understandable, you know. But those were good days too moving around England in different aircraft. And when we was in one aircraft, two seater, two engines, I can’t remember what it was now but we were flying in it, doing different things. The gunners trying different guns. Then you would come down and sit down on the floor and as we were sitting down on the floor the pilot said, ‘One of the engines has stopped.’ So, we all had to get down on the floor somewhere and wedge yourself against something while he landed. You know. But he landed ok and it was all part of life in those days. All part of life. Yeah. And well I can’t remember it at the moment. I can’t remember it you know.
SP: About your base at Kelstern — what was that like? Where you were based.
FS: In —
SP: Kelstern in Lincolnshire.
FS: Lincolnshire.
SP: Yeah.
FS: Oh, it was a cracking place that. It was. It was a cracking place. So, we were sent there later on in the war because I think they had space then. And the place that we was in was falling to pieces so they said we’ll send you to Kelstern. And that was — not Kelstern, the one in — what’s the name of the one in York.
DS: Scampton.
FS: Scampton. That’s right. They sent us to Scampton which was the posh one then. So we spent some time at Scampton and went over Germany from Scampton and the other places. You know. Bombed them and that and then the war stopped and things happened then. When I say things happened they didn’t know what to do because all the lads from Canada and America and South Africa they were all going home the following day. So, we were — they didn’t know what to do with us so they sent us to camps which was empty. You know. They’d been full of people at one time and then they were all out then. Empty. So they sent us out of these and we used to go to the various villages then close by. And they used to look after us. Well I say look after us — you’d go in the pub and they’d buy you a pint, you know and things like that and look after us. It was smashing there I think. Those little pubs. Not pubs. Took us to church. I think they took us church — I wasn’t a church goer. And happy life. A happy life and eventually took us somewhere else down south. And I thought why are they sending me down here for because I can’t do what they’re doing here. I’m a man who uses his hands and his brain. And they sent me then over to the other side of the country again and I learned to type. So I was typing things for them and eventually they sent me from there to Blackpool and after Blackpool I was sent home. So that was the end of me as a gunner.
SP: Frank, during the war years were there any particular time when you went up in a Lancaster that you remember? Was there any particular operations that stand out?
FS: I’m trying to think.
DS: I remember you telling me once you got caught in the searchlights over Berlin and you had to corkscrew down.
FS: Aye. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right over Berlin. And there’s usually about a few hundred that was going over there from here, you know and this particular night they got the old guns. Not the guns going. They get the lights, headlights. The —
DS: Searchlights.
FS: Searchlights. They’d got the searchlights going and the, God knows, underneath so they were following us all the way and then the German aircraft — they came after us and we had to do a bit of flying like this, you know. And fortunately we got away with it that particular time. And we did two or three over Germany. Well more than that two or three. We did about half a dozen, a dozen or so I think over Germany. And each time we were flying over we’d see somebody in the distance flying underneath an aircraft. And it was dark because it we always went over at night and as we got a bit closer we could see that the plane underneath was a German plane.
DS: A fighter.
FS: And it had guns pointing upwards and all he did was press the button and brrrrrm and kill the plane itself with all the lads on. So, you had to watch out for that which we did. But these things happen in war and not much you could do about it and I was lucky to get back alive. That’s the way I look at it, you know. And very very nice. Very nice I thought, that there was always some hot food ready when you got back. You got back at 5 o’clock in a morning you’d always got a breakfast ready for you. And somebody would shout, ‘Do you like your egg?’ I’d say, ‘No, I don’t want my egg.’ ‘Well, I’ll have it. Pass the plate over, you know. But I’ve never liked eggs. Not eggs. Something I don’t like. I can’t remember now. What is it I don’t like?
Cath: Onions.
FS: Onions. I hate onions so and I still hate onions and I’ll tell them now, so. Those were good days and then there was a lot of moving around. Then I think I’ve told you about this. Moving around. Yeah.
SP: And when you were at Kelstern you said that you had to sometimes sit at the side of the runway with your gun.
FS: Correct.
SP: What was that for?
FS: Well in those days it was always evening when the Germans came over. Like at the same time as went we over there. And the aircraft, there was usually about four aircraft, five aircraft could be six aircraft coming at a time, coming in and we sat on each side with our brrrrrr and there could be, and there had been, after the last aircraft came in a German aircraft would follow them in and shoot at him as he was landing. So, they put two of us, one on each side, to keep our eyes open after the last one came in because they, and we shot at them and I think we missed them, you know. But it stopped. They stopped coming in after that. Which was another part of life isn’t it, you know. But a good life. I’ve had a good life and I’m still here which is the main thing, you know. Anything more you want love?
SP: Is there anything else you can think of you that you’ve not had the chance to say or anything?
FS: I’ll just have a think.
SP: Yeah.
FS: Yeah. Turn it off.
[recording paused]
FS: Ready.
SP: Ok Frank. You were talking about your crew and other crews. Is there anything that stands out about –?
FS: Well there was one member of my crew. The crew I was in. And it was too much for him. Even training was too much for him so he did a runner up to Scotland. I think he was a Scots fellow. I may be wrong. But he’d gone up there possibly because it was easier to find somebody up there. A place to go to wasn’t it? Scotland in those days. But eventually the police found out, the RAF police found him and brought him back and he was brought out on to the space that there was there and all the people in the area itself. When I say the people, all the staff, you know, all the people that worked.
DS: All the crews.
FS: The aircrew. Not aircrew. All the RAF people. They all came out and he was stood there and then his medals were dragged off and he was taken off by two policemen then and sent somewhere else. As a, as a thing, you know. Like — it was like being taken to prison isn’t it? But I can understand it because it was a terrible thing to have in your mind. But I’m not, it was in my mind but nowt you could do about it. Nothing you could do about it, you know but it was good — looking back on it it was a good thing and it’s kept me going and still here at ninety two. So not bad going is it?
SP: No.
FS: No. I know.
SP: Yeah. Frank if I can thank you for your time. I think that’s been great. Thank you very much. And thank you Dave as well for helping out with that. So —
FS: You enjoyed it.
SP: Yes. Very much so. Always a pleasure to hear stories.
FS: Like this. Have you heard other stories like this?
SP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Every one’s slightly different but —
FS: Oh, they’re all slightly different but they have the same —
SP: Still, great, great stories. Yeah. Yeah.
FS: The same outlook as we all had as you might say. Yeah. We may not come back from this one, you know. Every time you got in the plane you’d think by Jerry am I going to come back. And you’d see somebody. You were flying over with them and all of a sudden you’d see him with a half a wing blown off.
DS: The thing that sticks in my mind —
[recording paused]
FS: Fills it all up doesn’t it for you?
SP: Right. Just a couple of bits to add Frank. You were just chatting then after we’d finished about your nicknames that you had during the war which I thought were really interesting. So, do you want to let us know about that? Your nicknames and why you had those.
FS: Algernon Montague Simpson wasn’t it?
DS: That was the name you gave yourself.
FS: That’s what I gave myself. Yeah.
SP: But that wasn’t your name.
FS: No. Frank. I was Frank. Algernon Montague Simpson. Yeah. That still comes my way. A while ago now. Yeah. Here you are Frank how are you? Tea and coffee and that. Yeah.
SP: So, all your crew knew you as that.
FS: Oh yeah.
SP: Yeah.
FS: They knew I was Frank but I used to call, well they used to say Frank Algernon you know. I don’t know why it came up. These sort of things. But they do in your life don’t they?
SP: Yeah. And then you had a nickname because you were quite slim during the war.
FS: What was it? Yeah. Skinny bugger.
Cath: Satchel arse.
FS: Satchel arse. Yeah. There was no room for me. I used to slip off the, where we were sat with the gunnery. Sat there I used to slip off there. Oooh get back on again. Yeah, I was only a skinny bugger then. I still am really. Oh they were good days those. Good days. Another thing that they had in those days was they had a toilet in the aircraft. And I was sat in the, where I usually sit and saw somebody walking down. And I saw him get on the toilet and do what was necessary and it was the pilot. He couldn’t do anything else but go to the toilet [laughs] No. They were good days those. Good days. Still comes through my mind occasionally. Even more so now. Yeah. Yeah. But that’s, yeah, cracking that. Well I can’t think of anything else now.
SP: That’s great Frank. So, I’ll just thank you again for that. And thank you Dave.
FS: I’m going to charge of course [laughs]
SP: I’ll let them know.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Simpson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-02
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASimpsonF170203, PSimpsonF1702, PSimpsonF1704
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:37:28 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Simpson was born in Manchester and volunteered to be an air gunner after joining the RAF. He flew in ‘Ollie’s Bus’ which was named after the Canadian pilot. He describes seeing the German aircraft with the Schrage Musik, the upward firing guns and seeing aircraft shot down. His own pilot had to take evasive action when they were caught in searchlights over Berlin. He also recalls gunnery duty beside the airfield to protect the incoming aircraft from German intruder aircraft.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
air gunner
aircrew
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Kelstern
RAF Scampton
searchlight
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/565/8833/PEvansDC1602.2.jpg
86b05a1f1363b47b738718b23de31580
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/565/8833/AEvansDC160714.2.mp3
c2f2de6871b83db8ca8bdb70d47cefb5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Evans, Derek Carrington
D C Evans
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Evans, DC
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Derek Carrington Evans (1924 - 2017, 2207080 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 625 Squadron. Also contains photographs of model Lancaster and people.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Derek Carrington Evans and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM. Ok so this is Annie Moody and I am with Derek Evans today. Derek was born in Doncaster he’s living in York at the moment and I am undertaking this interview at the Offices of Worans in Doncaster.
DE. He was born on the 20th of June 1924.
AM. 20th of June ’24, erm and todays date is the 14th of July 2016. So, Derek.
DE. I am 92.
AM. You’re 92, getting on a bit, but still.
DE. I am getting on a bit, yes.
AM. Derek tell me, you have told me when you were born, tell me a little bit about where were you born and tell me a little bit about your parents?
DE. I was born in the village of Doncaster, that’s Edlington, I was born [laugh] about twenty past nine one Friday morning and, eh my sister went to school and she came back and she got a new brother, and eh I don’t know what her reactions were but I heard plenty about it at the time [laugh], yeah eh, yes there was two of us. I had a brother as well who died em but em, there was Doris and me who lived and she died just a few years ago with rotten cancer and she was as good as, as healthy as me, which seemed anyway.
AM. What did you, what did your parents do Derek?
DE. What did?
AM. What did your parents do, what work did your dad do?
DE. My father, my mother was a housewife, my father was an electronic, electric engineer and em pneumatic. That’s em, he worked in the collieries installing the machinery.
AM. Right
DE. And em, and he served in the first war and em he got some medals for that, ‘cause he, one day he heard somebody crying in no mans land, he went over the top.
AM. So he was in the Army?
DE. Yes, he was in, first of all he was in eh [pause] thousands in the Middle East, what do you call it, the Dardanelles and he got away with that. In fact, he brought a shell back that had burst near him [laugh] and I have still got it somewhere.
AM. Still got it.
DE. And eh, eh, then he was, oh he was quite an authority in the eh Scout Movement, and eh if, if they haven’t been destroyed, I’ve got letters from Baden Powell to him and from Lady Baden Powell to him yeah, he helped in the formation of that.
AM. So were you in the Scouts?
DE. Oh I was.
AM. Tell me a bit about your childhood?
DE. Well, I went to school as an infant and, eh it was at Edlington, and eh I think my father must have had a bit better job than a miner because we lived in the top village and it was new, it was all new that, but I had to go down to the old village to school. And eh I used to go dressed, I had a little suit and a tie and did I get some hammer from the scrubbing sods down there, and eh the only thing I remember about that is I got hold of one of these lads and I pulled him up to me, and me hand went up like this, somebody got hold of it. It was me father.
AM. This was at school?
DE. Coming home from school em, yes, and I had waited for that devil because he had taunted me quite a bit. And eh I, I cured him.
AM. Your Dad stopped you thumping him?
DE. Yeah, I would really have done something [unclear], knocked him about I would.
AM. So that was the village school, what about when you were older and in your teens?
DE. That’s eh, one day my father came home from a colliery, I learnt after it was Bentley and there had been an explosion there and he was filthy, his clothes were in rags. And em, I heard him say to my mother, ’that’s the last time I go down the colliery’, and eh he gave his notice in and eh he had no job. And then he managed to get a supply of electrical goods, he was an electrician he knew all about that job and he was selling those, he used to go round the streets selling them and he built a good business up and then the war came. He lost all his contacts and we had to come out of our nice house and get a cooperation house, council house, and eh I went to, I then joined Doncaster Council.
AM. Let me just ask you, so what age were you when you left school then, ‘cause you would be fifteen when the war started, you left at fourteen.
DE. Em.
AM. So what was your first job?
DE. I got a job taking papers around and eh I gave my mother my first wage packet of five shillings, yeah. And eh and then I got eh, and then I left school at fourteen and I was on the streets.
AM. On the streets looking for a job you mean?
DE. Well walking about looking for a job and somebody said to me, “oh, you know Taylor of Colbridge’, do you remember them? ‘looking for an errand boy’ so I went in there and said, ‘I have come for that job’ and they gave it me.
AM. So what did you do, what did you have to do, what did that consist of?
DE. Well first of all it was delivering orders of books round Doncaster, eh and inside three months there were three other errand boys in there, and inside three months I was in charge [laugh], bighead [laugh]. And em, I er carried on there and eh the boss said, ‘would you like an apprenticeship?’ I said, ‘Yeah I would’, so I took an apprenticeship with them at ten and sixpence a week. Ten and six a week, which was a good wage in those days.
AM. A good wage indeed.
DE. And eh I carried on there and er and at six er at sixteen em, I was a junior there and at sixteen I was senior. All the folks had been pulled out in to the War and they left me in charge of that ruddy shop, d’know, at sixteen.
AM. So we are 1940at the beginning of the war, the first year of the war.
DE. Oh yes it would be, wouldn’t it?
AM. Yeah.
DE. And eh I run that all right, eh there was a lot of turnover I maintained it, eh I think it was, about thirty thousand a year, which was a lot of money.
AM. A considerable amount.
DE. I was in charge of about six women [laugh] old women, they were all twenties and thirties and they were all old to me of course, but I ran it, I carried on with it and eh part of there was printing you know, and of course I learned the printing job. I was a stationer, printer and bookseller officially when I came out of there. Well, I was eighteen, at seventeen, I heard they wouldn’t take aircrew unless you volunteered.
AM. Why did you want to be aircrew particularly rather than Army, Navy.
DE. Well, I thought it was a bit cleaner than being shot in trenches [laugh].
AM. True.
DE. Well, me father told me about his, he did fourteen to eighteen in the Army and he was in France, he was in Passchendaele. He used to tell me all about them actually and somewhere in that house of mine, I have got a recording of him telling the tale of the Red Baron being shot down over the trenches yeah.
AM. Baron Von Reichthoven.
DE. I’ve got that somewhere.
AM. So you are getting to seventeen, they wouldn’t take aircrew unless you volunteer.
DE. And I volunteered at seventeen, I went down to the Royal Air Force Recruitment Centre and got signed on.
AM. Right, where was that in Doncaster?
DE. In Doncaster, yeah, well my interest [unclear] out the place. My interest in aircraft started, oh, in the thirties because I was only a kid and my father used to take me to see the aircraft at Finningley, and in those days, you could walk on and walk up to the aircraft you know and I used to talk to the aircrews that were hanging about them, and eh I got really interested in, and they were, now then, Vickers Vimmies, em oh I can remember them over, I will tell you what they were later on, Vickers Vimmies.
AM. It’ll come.
DE. Aye?
AM. It’ll come
DE. Oh, it’s there yes and the Handley Page, eh the Handley Page, it had the gunner on the, in the front nose and the two engines were at the side of course. And eh, I had a look round and I was dragged into one, one day just to show, show me and I remember they had thirteen there and they went off on a [unclear], what did you call it eh, eh countryside eh, travels so. And eh thirteen took off and they got two back they crashed the rest of them.
AM. This was before the war?
DE. This was in the thirties, when the Vickers Vimmies and Handley Page Heyfords, Heyfords, em yeah and from then I have been interested in aircraft.
AM. So, you are interested in aircraft and you want something cleaner than the trenches, so off to the RAF Recruiting Officer.
DE. Yeah
AM. So they signed you up, but then what?
DE. Well eventually of course, my eighteenth birthday turned and they called me up into the Air Force and em I got, I got into the Aircrew Receiving Centre, Aircrew Receiving Selection Centre and it was in the Zoo in Regents Park [laugh].
AM. Had they, at that point, done any testing or anything to decide whether you were going to be aircrew or Ground Crew.
DE. Wait a minute.
AM. Sorry, going too fast.
DE. Typical woman rushing away [laugh].
AM. I apologise.
DE. And eh we was in the eh, the melee of being selected and, and, and I passed the exams for Pilot and they, after a week or two, we were square bashing at that, we were feeding amongst the monkeys [laugh], the zoo and eh one day some sort of Air Force bloke, I didn’t notice what his rank was in those days eh, ‘does anybody know morse code?’ I said, ‘yes I do’, ‘why?’ I said, ‘because I have got a radio station meself and with another bloke, we rented an office, an office we were using in the middle of Doncaster for half a crown a week’ [laugh], and we got all the gear in there. And eh this bloke said, ‘we are short of recruits for radio officers, do you think you could, like to transfer?’ ‘Yeah, I don’t mind, it’s flying, I’ll come’, and I then went down into the radio school and eh I spent twelve months there, came out, it tells you in the book there, came out and qualified a radio operator.
AM. So it was twelve months?
DE. I am sure it was twelve months yeah.
AM. Don’t matter, so what was that like, tell me a bit of what the training was like, easy, hard?
DE. It was hard yeah, it was not particularly hard for me actually em, they could fire morse at me all the days of the year and I could take it then, it’s a good job ‘cause when I was flying on operations, I had, it was all the time morse was coming in from headquarters em, eh Bomber Command headquarters. Go on, you tell me?
AM. No I can’t remember.
DE. And eh it all came in code and you had to be taking it down, writing it out and I could take twenty words a minute then [laugh], and I used to say to the Pilot, ‘oh there is diversion on, we are diverted when you get to such and such a place’, and that is how a radio operator used to perform and weather reports used to come through.
AM. So you finished your training as a wireless operator, what happens next after that.
DE. Well, I got, I don’t know, I was selected and I was given a course of radio navigation and it was a month, and I had a what I call them ‘sprog pilots’, they had just qualified and they wouldn’t trust a good pilot with me [laugh], and I used to fly all over the country and tell him where to go and what city he is going to do. I did that for a month, I did it successfully and I was passed out as a radio operator one then, and then I went to gunnery school and I went to, majority of them didn’t but I was selected to go to Gunnery School and I have no idea why.
AM. Not as a trained radio operator, not when you were already a trained wireless operator.
DE. Well in Bomber Command eh, there were more WOP/AG’S because if anything happened to the rear gunner, he was shot, my job was to crawl down there, open the doors, chuck him out into the open space and get in, sit in the guns [laugh] and that was the procedure yeah. I went to gunnery school, I have got the results there, they are good results and eh [looking through papers].
AM. I am just flicking through the log book for the tape to find where we are up to.
DE. Let’s have a look at it please.
AM. So we are looking at, we are looking at the initial trips here and the results of the initial courses.
DE. You are nowhere near the operation here.
AM. No, I know, no, no.
DE. Ah this is it look, extra syllabus.
AM. So we are May, June ‘44 and we are on the gunnery course.
DE. Yes
AM. And the results of the gunnery course are above average a very keen Cadet.
DE. [laugh] and when I were in gunnery, I used to be in the top turret of an aircraft in the mid upper gun turret, and eh they used to fly, now then a master, or an em, they are Masters aren’t they? Single engined training aircraft towing a long drogue and we had to hit it. You had to fire at that thing coming over you.
ME. A bit like clay pigeon shooting, not.
DE. Oh, I have done plenty of pigeon shooting.
ME. Oh later on. So, I’m looking at the fact that you were given extra syllabus training, given in lieu of bad weather, which cancelled flying.
DE. Yes, ah and that’s Dominies, isn’t it? Yeah, Domini that’s it. The De Havilland Domini was a twin engined twin winged aircraft I don’t know whether you -
ME. No.
Unknown. A biplane.
DE A biplane yeah, it was a lovely aeroplane that, lovely.
AM. So you have done your WOP training, you’ve done your gunnery training. What next?
DE. Eh after gunnery, I don’t know what they call it, it was advanced flying school, oh that’s advanced gunnery course.
AM. You moved onto the Operational Training Unit I would guess.
DE. No not yet.
AM. No, was that later?
DE. [unclear] Wigton that is on the West Coast of Scotland and I don’t know what we were supposed to be doing there, have I made notes of it? [pause] It’s just the details of what we were doing, I don’t know. Anyway, that’s Advanced Flying School, and then I went to No. 18 Operational Training Unit. How I got to there was, we were paraded one morning and eh this corporal came out and he said, ‘I am going to read out names and say a place where you are posted to. You will find that some is going to Leuchars in Scotland’. The bloke next to me said, ‘I live at Leuchars’, he said, ‘the others are at Finningley at Doncaster’. I said, ‘and I live at Doncaster, what is your name, I will swap you names’. Well, this Leuchars name came up, put me hand up, join the queue for Leuchars. No, I, t’other way round, yes, and when it was all, come out in the wash, I was going to Bomber Command, so I thought I had dropped a clanger here, and he was going to Coastal Command, so anyway I joined 18 and we were, we were put in a big, we were put in a Hanger with four, and there was a desk in there and there were four candles. The bloke sat there he re [unclear] they got a seventy-two scale Spitfire if you like and he went, and you had to shout out, and I got everyone right.
AM. Right, so what were you looking at?
DE. I was looking at the aircraft.
[Unknown]. Aircraft recognition.
AM. I’ve got you actual recognition of aircraft, I’ve got you.
DE. An eh, Peter Russell, who was and who’d come and he was in this hall, and there was about four hundred of us and eh he came to me and he said, ‘would you like to become my radio operator?’ and he had done a tour.
AM. How did you know he had done a tour.
DE. He told me.
AM. Ok but he had a little brevet as well that shows that they had done a tour I think. He talks about that in his book that maybe at crewing up, people were happy to join him because he had already done a tour, so you are probably going to be safe with him.
DE. Yeah, he was good looking too.
AM. Right, so he decided.
DE. Couldn’t keep the girls off him.
AM. So at crewing up then, there’s you.
DE. So, there is a Pilot, Colin Richardson, Navigator, Derek Evans the Radio Operator and Titch Haldred the Rear Gunner, is that it?
AM. Yeah, I have got them written down.
DE. Where do you get that from?
AM. The book.
DE. Oh, I see and I did quite a fair lot, quite a lot of flying to a lot of places.
AM. And this was on Wellingtons.
DE. Wellingtons, we used to go wandering around the Continent you know and eh and from then -
AM. Sorry to interrupt, so at this point there is five of you, ‘cause you are in a Wellington and you are doing your training on Wellingtons based in, where were you actually?
DE. Finningley.
AM. You stayed at Finningley.
DE. Eh well we used to use the satellite at Worksop.
AM. Yes, I had scribbled down Worksop.
DE. Finningley was the base and em, and then what, what happened then. Oh, went to eh, four engined aircraft and that was Halifaxes.
AM. So this is heavy conversion unit to get you used to big boys.
DE. Yes, and therefore we had two crew, we had an engineer and a mid-upper gunner.
AM. And I think I’ve got the names here. Tim Cordon was your Flight Engineer and Tony Large was your Mid Upper Gunner. So you picked up your extra two and got seven of you.
DE. No, I am telling lies, he was a Dubliner. I said to him, ‘what the hell are you doing here?’ he said, ‘you don’t think you are fighting the war on your own’ [laugh].
AM. So you went to Heavy Conversion Unit I think at em, Blyton.
DE. Blyton yes, it was the base was Lindholme, but the airfield was -
AM. Was at.
DE. Yeah.
AM. And that was initially on Hali, on old Halifaxes.
DE. Yeah.
AM. So what was the wireless operator bit, room, not room, area like in the Halifax?
DE. Ruddy awful, in fact I, I wouldn’t say it terrified me but it frightened me to death.
AM. Why was it ruddy awful?
DE. Well, there was a staircase and em, the Pilot sat on the top of this staircase and I sat directly under him, in trouble and the aircraft spinning, do you think I got down those stairs? No, no, you were pinned in, no, you had no room, I had full radio gear there. I could do all the nice flying, I could do everything you want to but I wouldn’t have like to thought I was getting in operations in it. Anyway, then we went to Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell, an eh -
AM. So how different, tell me how different was, the Lancaster was to the Halifax.
DE. Well, it is like coming, sitting in this room instead of a back passage somewhere yeah, you could walk about in a Lanc.
AM. And the wireless operator area was better?
DE. Well, there was the pilot, there was the bomb aimer, our front gunner and then there was the pilot and then there was the navigator and the radio operator, we sat together and that was a flight crew. You couldn’t take a four engined aircraft off without having a pilot, navigator and a radio operator yeah, three and eh good job as well, I will tell you later on. I pulled them out of the drink.
AM. Got some stories. So, you done your heavy conversion training, what did that consist of? Just basically up there?
DE. Circuits and bumps.
AM. Circuits and bumps.
DE. And familiarisation with the aircraft of course, but the radio gear was the same so I didn’t need any conversion to that because I knew that backwards.
AM. For your pilot of course, who was moving onto a completely different plane, to fly from what he had been used to on his first tour.
DE. Yeah, oh he used to fly Hudsons, that’s an American twin engined originally a civil aircraft and eh yeah, I’ll come to him in a minute if you like? [laugh].
AM. Sorry, where am I up to, we know where are you, so you have done your circuits and bumps, your heavy conversion training, got your crew.
DE. And then got posted to a Squadron, 625 Squadron.
AM. Yep, at RAF Kelstern.
DE. Kelstern, and the CO met us, because we were two crews posted there to replace two lost last week. So he says, ‘Good evening gentlemen, the only thing we can guarantee here is two weeks life. The crew, the other crew took off with us on the first operation and was lost’. They had one life em I went, well we went as a crew we went on, we went on, we did a tour, we did.
AM. When he said that to you though Derek, you are twenty years old.
DE. Twenty.
AM. You’re twenty. You have not done your first operation yet and he is telling you you’ve got -
DE. A years . .[unclear].. well
AM. I can’t imagine how that felt or what you thought about that?
DE. Em, well we were a little bit bravado, we said, ‘well we will bloody show you’ [laugh] yeah well Peter had done two years operational flying before that and our first operation was to Essen.
AM. Was this the, on your first one, well first of all, you start off, your pilot has to go as second dicky and not all of you went with him.
DE. I don’t know if I went on his second dicky or not, I can’t remember, but he normally took, this is the old, this is the experienced taking the new crew, they actually, they were the, he used to take, the old pilot, used to take the new pilot as second pilot, and he used to take his own navigator and his own rear gunner. So I wouldn’t go on that dicky, second dicky. I did a few of those when we took a new crew on ops.
AM. I’m just looking, so when you did your first one
DE. Was Essen.
AM. Right, let’s find it [pause]. Circuits, here we are. So, the very first one was HLB?
DE. High Level Bombing.
AM. High Level Bombing at Essen. So, tell me right, so this first operation you’re going to Essen, what was that like from the beginning. As in, you know, you are going, you start off, it’s going to be a night, night flight.
DE. Will you close your ears a minute [laugh]. Em the Battle Order, that’s an illustration of the Battle Order in there, it was posted in the mess in the morning and we had to go for breakfast, and eh we thought oh, tonight so what we did as a crew, at ten o’clock we used to go down to the aircraft and we used to go through it like a dose of salts. We used to make sure everything was working and the first thing we did was to say to the ground crew, ‘what’s loaded on here?’ and they used to say, ‘eighteen hundred gallons’ or ‘two thousand gallons’, and of course, if it was two thousand five hundred, we used to say, ‘a long one tonight’. Then we em, went back and had a meal and then we went to kitting out. Put our ‘chutes on and whatever we were going to wear. We used to find out by devious means the temperatures, ‘what are we going to wear?’” So, and then we went into briefing and eh I went into radio briefing, navigator went into navigator briefing and so on, and gunnery and then we had a briefing altogether where you saw the wall, and we used to think ‘bloody hell’ [laugh]. And eh we used to then get in the bus and took out to dispersal, where we climbed in our aircraft. And by ritual all aircrew before an op, had to wee on the wheels.
AM. That is better than doing it up in the air isn’t it?
DE. Yeah, you diverted me a little bit
AM. Sorry.
DE. It’s all right. It was really cold, I mean I’ve flown in minus fifty I, I, actually in conjunction with this, I’ll have to write you a story about Essen, I can tell you.
AM. Tell me what the story is?
DE. I can’t really without thinking about it but eh, Essen, we were up through the flak barrage but we didn’t enquire, we didn’t, we didn’t involve running into a fighter, and we came back on that and eh. That’s where that poor devil lost his life on that first flight of the next crew that we were replacing. So that was Essen done. Come back, you got a cup, a mug of cocoa and half a mug of rum.
AM. A mug?
DE. You could treacle it out the rum you know, if it was naval rum. I didn’t drink, it sort of thawed you out a bit ‘cause you come back from these raids, and I will say it quite bluntly, you were terrified. And em, and then of course you went to your bed and you slept very soundly.
AM. Did you speak with each other about how terrified you were or did you keep that to yourself?
DE. No, no, we, no, no, we talked about it. Because one was saying, ‘did you see that fighter, did you see that, did you see that going down on so and so’. Oh no, you portrayed the whole lot together because the pilot had a different view all together over the rear gunner. I had a different view of them all because I had the radar and I could, I could see every aircraft in, in the Bomber Stream.
AM. Is that the Fishpond?
DE. Fishpond, oh I have saved the, with that I have saved the crew on numerous occasions where I have said to Titch, in the tail, em, ‘aircraft two thousand yards astern, don’t know what it is but it looks quite small and it is going fast’, so we presume -
AM. So it is not a Lancaster then.
DE. It is not a Lancaster, well I can see all the lights around us em, because I used to say to the pilot ‘increase your height by about two hundred feet, ‘cause there is somebody converging on us’, and it would be another one of the stream, ‘cause we had a thousand in the stream you know. And he would raise the aircraft and you would feel the wash of something passing underneath and that was going to be a collision had we not had the knowledge. Mm, so, and then I would say to the, I would say to Titch in the tail, we called him Titch, he was about my size actually, and eh I would say to him ‘seventeen fifty yards, fifteen hundred yards, twelve hundred yards, you are now coming up to a thousand yards’, and he would say ‘I can see him’ and so, and once, I don’t know which. Well I do, I have got it somewhere down eh, I heard him say ‘bloody hell, there’s four of them’. and so they came in and eh the first one actually went up and he set a Lanc on fire above us. We saw them bale out and floating down and it exploded, and all the flaming petrol landed on the ‘chutes and they went, and the next one he decided to have a go at us. He went out to, he went out to starboard and was coming in like this, and I was counting out to Torrey in the top turret, ‘he is just above the horizon, em and is in within oh, he is coming up to about nine hundred yards now from us’, and I said to him, “he will, he’s a fighter and his guns point forward, he’s got to level himself up with us’. and I kept saying to him, “he’s levelling up, he’s levelling up, he’s levelling up’, and I heard Torries’ guns going brrrrr and this thing, so he got him, shot him down [laugh]. And em, the other time, our rear gunner never shot anybody down but he knew where they were, so they didn’t come in his range, but twice Torries came in because once a Junkers 88 came alongside us and he was stalking a Lanc in front of us, and he didn’t see us. Then I heard Torrey, and I heard Peter shout, ‘who’s firing?’ He said, ‘it’s me, oh I have just hosed a Junkers 88 down’. He must have killed the crew ‘cause it went straight down. Aye, I didn’t like to see that just the same, whether it was the enemy or what, but I do know if it hadn’t been the enemy, it would have been us.
AM. Exactly, exactly.
DE. And em, oh this went on night after night.
AM. Can I just ask you about that Cologne trip. So, it is your second one and I believe you, if I have got this one right, is this one where you had to land somewhere else?
DE. Oh, we were going, we were running in on the target and there was Kenny the Bomb Aimer just shouted ‘steady, steady, steady, steady, bombs open, bomb doors open, steady, bombs gone’, and the old Lanc, you know, we used to be at about seven or eight, yes, five hundred foot, it used to rise you know and then eh [pause], well heard, it was a god almighty bang, crash and lit the whole aircraft up and I thought [unclear], and eh we levelled up, Peter caught it again and we got it flying and [pause], no at that time he said, ‘I lost me, I haven’t lost me bombs’, so we went round again like stupid idiots, and we let our bombs go and him at the front said, ‘I haven’t got any bomb sight, the shell has hit it and destroyed our bomb sight’, so some wag in the back shouted, ‘let’s dive bomb them then’ [laugh] and we did, we used Cologne Cathedral as the sighting point and missed it.
AM. Was this the one where the compass and the chart didn’t match and you later found out that the compass had been shot up actually.
DE. Well what happened was that big flash [unclear], a shell had burst next door to us very, very close and had shaken all the navigation equipment that was fixed to the walls, onto the floor and Colin was groping round looking for it, and em we are flying along and em, I suddenly said to him, ‘Colin, you are running on about 230 degrees’, and I said ‘if my memories right, that’s heading for the Atlantic, yeah West’, you see, ‘no I’m not’. I said, ‘you are’, anyhow, I am arguing with him and I knew he was wrong.
AM. How could you tell?
DE. I could see all the bomber stream, I could see the fighters attacking them on the stream.
AM. On the fishpond.
DE. On my Fishpond and eh I saw the bomber stream converging north, and us converging west and eh anyway, Peter the Pilot he said, ‘what are you two arguing about?’ I said, “well we are off course, we should be wanting to swim back shortly because we are heading for the Atlantic’, and eh he talked to Colin for a minute or two and then he said to me, ‘Derek, take us home’, just that, ‘take us home’, and he dismissed Colin as navigator and eh I brought ‘em home, I brought ‘em home, and eh I got, I was given them the courses, I could read the courses off and I thought, thank god I had had some navigation training. We were, we were flying up country and I said I can’t get em, eh a beacon from Binbrook, because that was the local with the em, the pilots thing, that’s right, and if you keep those like that, you will get to where that is being transmitted from and if it collapses, you are on, turned over it. So anyway, I couldn’t raise Binbrook and I couldn’t raise Binbrook and eh we were flying up country, and our rear gunner shouted, ‘there is an aircraft below us, in car headlamps’. Because I had just said to Peter, ‘by god, you are flying low’, he said, ‘I am looking for a field’, he said, ‘we have no juice hardly’. Eh so I said to him, ‘you use your flight control radio’, it’s a little radio in the pilots cockpit and I said, ‘shout Darky on it’, and eh he shouted, “Darky, Darky’, and all the lights came on and he whipped it round like that and banged it down on the runway, and eh a car came and he followed us to dispersal and em it was an American, it was half American and half British, I can’t imagine.
AM. Falkingham.
DE. Falking.
AM. Falkingham.
DE. Falkingham yeah that’s right, she knows more than me about this.
AM. Oh I don’t.
DE. [laugh] I didn’t notice you sat at the side of your mam like.
AM. I am a bit younger than that.
DE. I would have thought, you are alright anyway [laugh]. Anyway em, we parked and we went into the mess, God, the food was beautiful. The Americans used to fly their own food in you know, and eh it was served like pigs. You walked past the table with all this beautiful stuff on it, custard, kippers.
AM. All together?
DE. All together a plate full of [unclear]. The next morning, as usual, we went to look at our aircraft, ten o’clock in the morning, we always used to gather round the aircraft and eh it was like a colander. There were holes in it and eh Peter said to a so called engineer, who was walking about there, ‘how long are you going to get this kite ready, how long is it going to be?’ and he said, ‘that’ll not fly again’. And eh there was an unexploded shell which lodged in the port outer engine, if that had gone bang, um.
AM. And what about the compass, because at this point Colins compass, you brought them home because the compass wasn’t working.
DE. I bought mine, yes, through my radio detection gear.
AM. What happened to the compass.
DE. It was lying on the floor.
AM. So that had been shot as well.
DE. It had shot off, well I don’t know whether the explosion but it was lying on the floor of the aircraft at the back because the, the rear, what do you call it? That compass anyway was lying on the floor and it was giving all sorts of bloody readings to him, ‘cause I couldn’t believe that Colin had lost us because he had run us into targets and kept the forty five second window that we got to bomb.
AM. So Colin was vindicated.
DE. Yes, I he grumbled at me a bit ‘cause I, I told him, ‘You are out of your mind, Colin, you are wrong’, [laugh] and I knew he was.
AM. But it was his equipment rather than him?
DE. It wasn’t Colin, no, no.
AM. So that was only your second operation and you had to get back. Then how did you, you get back from there [unclear].
DE. On a truck.
AM. And what did they say to you when you got back to your own base?
DE. First thing I done, I went into Flying Control and I said, ‘what happened to the comp. The transmitter at Binbrook’, I said, ‘I couldn’t get that for the last, we were half up the country’. And I could have brought Peter with that device over the airfield, and I couldn’t and fortunately, the rear gunner shouts, ‘there is an aircraft in the car headlamps’. Anyway, ah I walked into Flying Control, Peter Russell, Colin Richie and Derek Evans, there was a line through us. They had written us off, dead and they wouldn’t answer my calls, and anyway, we had that out with them with a little bit of fury [laugh] and we were alright with them then, I mean. The aircraft didn’t fly again for some months and we got it again once.
AM. Did you?
DE. Yes, aye, but there was a hole in the floor, hole in the floor between me, and I used to sit with the navigator, close as this and our table was here, and eh there was a hole in the floor, hole in the ceiling something had come through and missed the pair of us. And my father was right, wasn’t he, ‘cause when I started this he said, ‘don’t worry lad’, he says, ‘the Devil looks after his own’ [laugh].
AM. But somebody was.
DE. Yeah, my mother was a spiritualist and, on that night, it was three o’clock when we landed, and she wouldn’t let me father and her go to bed, ‘he’s in trouble’, and at three o’clock she said, ‘he’s alright’.
AM. He’s alright now.
DE. That’s fantastic ‘aint it.
AM. Do you want a rest?
AM. So I am looking at other stuff that I’ve got here. I’ve, I’ve so we have done the Essen, we’ve done the Cologne, then we have Düsseldorf, Bochum.
DE. Bottrop, we were attacked by about four ruddy German fighters there with that. It was a terrible job that, I don’t know whether, I got some, I got some, I got some good notes but I never carry them about with me.
AM. I have got some here where, I think it was on your third one, that was one where I think you saw and aircraft hit. Tell me about, there was one, there was one where you had a near head on crash?
DE. Oh god aye, we were flying, well, we did, no, not quite all night bombing but most of it. That’s the aircraft I got together and the only things I haven’t made are the wheels, I couldn’t do rubber wheels.
AM. We are looking now at a picture of a model of E for Easy, Derek’s second Lancaster that he made and I have got a photograph of that.
DE. Do you know how long it took to make that?
AM. A long time.
DE. Two thousand four hundred hours, because I built it from the plans, and all these engines and all the ribs and everything are all scale fifteen scale. Two thousand four hundred hours and it is a beautiful model and it is made to fly, and I put it on our drive eh, I opened the throttles and it shot forward and I closed them. I thought that’s not going into the air ‘cause [unclear].
AM. You wouldn’t get it back. Tell me about the operation where you had a near head on crash?
DE. Oh well, it’s in the Ruhr, we had done the bombing and suddenly, we were flying like that, suddenly we went down and I looked up and I saw an aircraft pass over the top of us. I thought ‘bloody hell, that was a close one’, and Peter says, ‘I was watching that aircraft come towards us’, he says, ‘and when the wings filled my windscreen, I thought I had better dive’, and that one went up and it was a German fighter.
AM. Right.
DE. So he nearly got his chop as well.
AM. I am looking at, I am looking back at Derek’s log book here, at all the various things. So, in November ‘44 now we are talking about. So, thinking about what is happening generally, we have had D-Day, the Army.
DE. No, not in.
AM. In November ‘44.
DE. Yes, yes, D-Day was, was it June ‘44?
AM. June ‘44.
DE. Oh yes.
AM. So the Army are working their way up towards Germany now and you are still flying over Germany.
DE. We are taking out important points eh Dortmund, Durkheim, [unclear], Dortmund, good gracious.
AM. I think you bombed quite a few railway, railway lines as well, railway yards.
DE. And also, oil refineries.
AM. What did you think, if you did think at all about, about the, the people on the ground.
DE. Nothing, afterwards yeah, I thought oh dear, we got reports back, you had killed so many on that night and eh, we as a crew had killed four hundred and fifty Germans or something, and I was sorry. I don’t like killing eh, we have had to kill ah, while these German fighters were levelling their guns up, we had to kill ‘em quick or it was the man who got in first.
AM. Kill or be killed.
DE. Yeah, but I didn’t like, I didn’t like it particularly. I am not a killing man but you are if you get in the right circumstances em, yeah [laugh] yes. Em just to jump a year or two, I was, I didn’t attend a meeting and I was appointed President of an Air Gunners Association over the north here somewhere, and I thought, ‘flipping heck’, and eh I then said to myself, ‘what did I do. I know, lets go see if there is any German fighter pilots still alive’. I went to Germany, I walked into a Luftwaffe station, I said, ‘does anybody know anything about flying here?’ [laugh].
AM. And they said?
DE. Oh, I got ever so friendly with them, as a matter of fact, it eh, em we got invites to, my wife and I, got invites to stay with them and we invited them and their wives to stay with us. It culminated in, I cleared a couple of fields, ‘cause I still have the farm and em, I got, I asked the, I knew the Army, a Major in the Army, Richard somebody or other, and I said, ‘do you do any manoeuvres?’ and he said, ‘why’, I said, ‘I have quite a few acres of woods and fields’, ‘Oh’, ‘the price is couple of marquees and a field kitchen on Saturday, such and such a date’, ‘yeah that’s easy, yeah I’ll do that’, and they arrived and I issued an invitation to British and German aircrews, a hundred and twenty eight turned up. The wife says how are you going to feed these? Well, we got a few sausage rolls and that, and I said, ‘oh I know something’, and I went into see the CO at Finningley, a David Wilton, he was very friendly with us and eh I said ‘can I borrow a Jetstream for an afternoon?’ He said ‘what do you want one for?’ I said ‘I’ve got a hundred and twenty five British and German aircrew starving in a field of mine and I know that’, what is the German station, closing one down [pause] and eh I will think about it and I had heard on the grapevine that there was chucking food away and stuff, and so to fetch all these bottles of whisky and food into Finningley, it wasn’t changing hands was it? It was RAF in Germany and RAF in England, and eh when we put the, when we put the piles of food down on pallets, my drive was eighty five yards long and it was full, we had tons. I was, I was moved of course, I got a field kitchen cooking and eh I thought, ‘I wonder where they make all the sausages in Germany’. Just as a thought, so I undid a big bundle and got down to a small package, a kilo or something and it said ‘in case of complaint, such and such a company, Burnley’ [laugh]. I held it up and I said you bloody Krauts can’t even make your own sausage.
AM. Can’t make a sausage. I am going to pause while we have some lunch.
AM. So we are back now, we have had lunch, a bit of refreshment and Derek is raring to go, I think.
DE. Raring to carry on.
AM. Raring to carry on. So, we, we have talked about his early life and we have gone through joining up, crewing up, squadron, some of his first operations em. I think just before we paused, Derek was telling us about the near miss when he nearly had a head on crash.
DE. Yeah, I looked up and saw this bloody aeroplane two inches above me, well it seemed like it.
AM. Not long after that em, I think your pilot became a squadron leader, your squadron leader.
DE. Yes, he was.
AM. What difference did that make to rest of you as a crew, did that make a difference?
DE. No, no, no, no he, all the crews were all a family, all the crews were a family.
AM. Right.
DE. The only time I couldn’t get near him was what I used to crudely call ‘Birding’.
AM. Playing out with the ladies.
DE. Yes, and he was very good at that.
AM. You don’t mean, you don’t mean bird watching with binoculars then?
DE. Eh I don’t think he would know one bird from another actually.
AM. Also just before we finished or maybe just after we switched off, you talked about a landing at Sturgate with Fido, tell me about that, what happened?
DE. Well eh, they put some eh pipes and they didn’t quite join them up, there were leaks in them on both sides of the runway and [unclear].
AM. Yes, so as you are coming back from, dropped your bomb load, on your way back and it is not foggy as you are coming back.
DE. And I am saying to Peter, oh I got it through the ‘we can’t land at Kelstern’, ‘Oh?’ ‘We have been diverted to Sturgate’. ‘What’s Sturgate, we don’t have been of there’, ‘it’s Fido, Fog Investigation Dispersal Operation’, and em we arrived over Sturgate, there was just a blazing mass, there’s the air and the fog had been moved up to about five thousand feet I should think, so it was above, above the runway and the runway was just a mass of fire actually and Peter said, ‘god [unclear]’. Anyway, he landed down there and we were frightened, we didn’t want to get a tyre burst or anything, and em we landed there and then we taxied back up the runway, and we picked up a truck with lights flashing and took us into dispersal. That was it, we stayed there for the night. It was em, it was a dangerous job landing on that job, if you got anything went wrong with you and you veered off, you were burnt.
AM. It went down both sides of the runway, didn’t it, all the way down.
DE. Both sides about six thousand gallons of petrol, a minute was burning oh, colossal, colossal amount.
AM. How many times did you have to land on a FIDO? Just the once?
DE. Just the once um [laugh].
AM. Good job.
DE. Yeah, we took off on it, we got, the next day, message came through that Kelstern was clear, so we said ‘right, we might as well take off and get on back’, and so we did.
AM. But it was still foggy where you were?
DE. It was still blazing so we actually took off amongst the blazing petrol and em got up to a reasonable height and cleared off then.
AM. And got back to Kelstern.
DE. Lovely station was Kelstern, it was a -
AM. What was it like, tell me what Kelstern was like?
DE. A field.
AM. But you just said it was a lovely Station, what was lovely about it?
DE. Em, it was a family, there were no rules and regulations, it was just a station carved out of the countryside and all we got round there was just fields and woods, and eh it suited me because I had been used to woods and fields. We spent a nice time there and eh everybody knew everybody, there was no ‘morning Sir’, in fact the boss there was Air Vice Marshall John Baker. I saved his life once and he always called me Derek, never airman.
AM. So how did you save his life. I think I know this story but tell me anyway?
DE. Well, we set of to bomb em some German positions that were holding the British Army up.
AM. You say we, so he was with you.
DE. Oh Aye yes, he was with us and em we were flying over the North Sea and I got a message from headquarters, eh position over run, return to base and take your bombs and fuel back. Thirty two of aircraft and bombs and I said to Peter, ‘yeah whip it round, we have a recall’, and he said ‘our position is to fly with the boss’.
AM. So he was in a separate aircraft.
DE. Oh, in a separate aircraft, we were the aircraft escorting him because Peter was high up then in rank, and em we were to fly in Vic formation with him. You have heard of Vic formation, haven’t you?
AM. Yeah, yeah.
DE. And we kept on flying and I said, ‘Peter. aren’t you turning round?’ He said ‘I can’t let him fly over ‘cause we’re getting near the Dutch coast there you see’. So eh he said eh, so I said, ‘go a bit closer to him’, and I got the Aldiss lamp out and I winked out the message, and that stupid radio operator said, ‘Why?’. And I signalled back ‘read your bloody bomber [unclear] broadcasts’, and he disappeared and he did and em just before the Dutch coast and the Dutch defences. There were rockets you know. We used to fly along and a rocket would be fired and we would steer round it [laugh], you can’t believe it can you? And em I saw him then turn and we flew back with him, and em he said to me, he says, ‘thank you for saving my life’.
AM. So neither of you had dropped your bombs, the whole lot had to land.
DE. We were loaded with petrol and bombs, thirty tons, and em Peter came in, came in last ‘cause we, they had all gone, they had all gone to land except for the gaggle, us and Peter said, ‘I will let him land and go back in after’, so we did an orbit or two and eh then he came in. His rate of sink was too much because a hundred mile an hour was the rate of sink of a Lanc you know, coming in to land. He was sinking a lot and he slammed the throttles forward and he came in a hundred, came in to land on full throttles and we [unclear]. I was in the astrodome, I thought, ‘bloody hell, we are not, we are going to be buried automatically in the field here, you know’, and em, he touched down and then, he was like this, wheel to wheel and he banged open the throttles and took off, and we went round and come and did a proper landing then. We got in the crew bus and we were detached, dispatched outside the Flying Control near the parachute section and all that, and there was John Barker, the Boss, he got all the air crew kneeling down on the hard runway and we were all with this.
AM. Bowing.
DE. Yeah, and Peter said to him ‘what’s all this’, and he said, ‘any bugger who can survive a landing like that is a god’ [laugh].
AM. I can’t, I can’t imagine landing with the full bomb load and how scary that must be.
DE. It was scary. A burst tyre would have made things hot.
AM. Very.
DE. Oh you wouldn’t have got away with it if you had burst a tyre.
AM. You know that Vic formation that you said, what does Vic stand for? I know what it is like and arrow head.
DE. Vee
AM. Oh vee, of course, yeah, but I was trying to work out what the I and the C stood for.
DE. Vic
AM. Vee, Vic, so it is the phonetic alphabet, isn’t it?
DE. Three aircraft.
AM. It is the point at the front.
DE. Yes, that the Vic.
AM. The ones that take the flak.
DE. Yeah.
AM. I read in the book that you led a formation of about two hundred at the front of that, and Colin got them all there and got them all back.
DE. Yeah, oh he was a good bloke was Colin, he was a bit shirty with me when I said, ‘you are bloody miles out, Colin’, ‘oh no I’m not, no I’m not’, and Peter says, ‘what are you two arguing about?’
AM. To be relying to, on his instruments. I am looking at, I am still looking at your log book here at some of the others “Gaggle Leader Training.”
DE. Yes, you are talking about Vic, aren’t you.
AM. Is that what, I am just looking at this.
DE. What do they say about a flock of birds?
AM. A gaggle of geese.
DE. Yeah.
AM. But it is got here that you actually did training for it.
DE. Yes that’s right, learned to fly in vics.
AM. Yes, got you.
DE. Because normally we flew alone, didn’t we?
AM. Yes within the stream.
DE. Yeah.
AM. And then you, what else have I got here, I’ve got one, I’ve got a little note about when you were attacked by some fighters near Nuremburg.
DE. Yes, yes.
AM. Can you remember that one, I might be jumping about too much now, and then the other note I’ve got is em that in April 1945 Kelstern closed, and you had to move to Scampton.
DE. Yes.
AM. And then your very last Operation was Heligoland?
DE. Heligoland yes, a submarine base. I remember running in over that and we weren’t leaders, we were in the main stream and eh we were dropping big stuff on there. Eh and I mean the ones with the em, ten tonners, they used to go through thirty eight feet of concrete and very often didn’t explode a few days later they would explode wouldn’t they. It was designed for that, what do you call it, delayed action yeah, ’cause we, we done one or two trips to em the Dortmund Emms Canal and eh we used to let the water out the canal [laugh] bad people.
AM. That’s one way of putting it.
DE. All eh, you see the submarine engines were made by MAN, M.A.N [spelt out name], you have seen the lorries and that was, that was down there anyway, Dortmund or somewhere and eh, they always used to use barges taking these submarine engines to Bremen to be fitted to submarines and they were all stuck there with no water in [laugh].
AM. That was the idea.
DE. Have a good trip, yeah, yeah [laugh].
AM. And that was it so that was April ’45, that last one.
DE. Yeah.
Unknown. When was VE day?
AM. VE Day was in May, early May, wasn’t it?
DE. Something like that, I know where it starts, the last operation and the next was delivering food.
AM. For the Operation Manna. How many of those did you do?
DE. How many?
AM. Did you just do one Operation Manna?
DE. No, we did two or three, did more than one anyway.
AM. ‘Cause you were flying really low level in Operation Manna weren’t you. What was that actually, after all that year of the full tour of dropping bombs and all the rest of it, now you’re dropping food?
DE. Well we was dropping food to this Hospital. I was stood in the astrodome and we were lower than the nurses standing on the roof.
AM. I know it was really low level, I didn’t know it was that low, I knew it was really low level.
DE. And you know, some years later, I take my wife to Buxton, to the theatre there, you know the theatre? I drove into this car park, lined up and got out and a Volvo came in and what a pigs ear he was making of trying to, so I got out and I am saying, ‘come on, come on’, you know, then I notice it’s Dutch number plates. So I said to him ‘are you a Dutchman then?’ and he said, ‘yes, have you been to Holland?’ I said, ‘I have been over it a time or two’, he said, ‘have you?’ I said, ‘yes, the last time I went I was delivering food’. He said ‘I’ve got some photographs’, he said, ‘I had hidden a box brownie camera’, and he’d taken photographs of us. He said, ‘I have got it with me and you can have them’.
AM. That’s brilliant.
DE. That was marvellous that was, wasn’t it?
AM. What was it, I can’t imagine what that must have been like to be flying so low that you could actually see the people waiting and, and for the food, because they were starving weren’t they?
DE. Oh, we would have killed them if we had dropped it on them, Aye, we were dropping six ton, lots and eh, we went along this low, we went Hague, I think we went somewhere else as well, I think it was the Hague.
AM. Yes, we’ve got the Hague here ‘Spam Droppings’.
DE. Spam Droppings, we call it spam yeah [laugh], and eh we used to, we dropped that and then we dropped, we went across low like that, if we could have put our wheels down landed on it, it was that low. Well, eh was perhaps thirteen, thirteen foot diameter [unclear] props they were and as soon as we let the things go, turned it over and went straight up. We was told not to fire at the defences because they had agreed not to fire at us and I remember Titch saying, ‘the buggers were going with us all the time’, their guns you know. He said, ‘and I got ‘em lined up as well’ [laugh].
AM. Just in case.
DE. Yeah, but the only one that was any trouble was an American. They fired at some of the defences and they shot him down. Serves him right, the agreement was made, it should have been kept.
AM. They called it ‘Chow hand’ didn’t they, we called it ‘Operation Manna’ and the Americans called it ‘Chow hand’.
DE. They would do. When we got a, we used to land at different places if there was fog like Sturgate, the Americans used to land with us in case, if their bases were fog bound and I remember once, this young airman, he attached himself to me, this American airman. ‘Will you show us a Lancaster?’ ‘Yes, I will show you a Lancaster’, and then there were the bomb trains starting and he said ‘where are all these going from?’ I said, ‘they are going to’, I said, ‘wait a minute, this is ours, look’. I said, ‘climb on one of those bombs and you will have a ride round’, so we rode round into the, into our dispersal and he lay on that aircraft until the last one was bombed. He couldn’t believe it, ‘cause I don’t know we eh, four thousand pounder, sixteen five hundreds eh about two and a half thousand pounds of incendiaries, that was a usual load you see. He watched every one hung cause he couldn’t have believed that lot would have done the whole lot of and American squadron, ‘cause their bomb load, maximum bomb load is four thousand pounds. Well, ours was twenty two thousand pounds.
Unknown. What on a Flying Fortress?
DE. Pardon?
Unknown. What on a Flying Fortress, American.
DE. And the German, what do you call that, Dornier 17 isn’t it.
AM. Dornier, yeah.
DE. That was four thousand pound load as well, they couldn’t carry anything.
AM. Well the Lancaster basically was a flying bomb factory, machine wasn’t it.
DE. That is what it was.
AM. And when you stand under it and look at when the bomb doors are open.
DE. Thirty three feet long.
AM. Yeah it is, so have I missed any stories about various operations. Can you think of any more that I have missed that you need to tell me about?
Unknown. The one that you were trying to get Derek was the fighter one, that was the one when Pete went into the Corkscrew, you know, the manoeuvres that got the fighters off the tail.
DE. Eh, I think it was Bochum, yes Bochum. It was a [unclear] because I have got a lot of.
AM. I think Bochum is just after the photographs.
DE. I see it, yes.
Unknown. I know you told me before, Derek, about how Peter had to turn, turn the Lancaster into, you know, the Corkscrew turn, upside down.
DE. We used to turn a Lancaster down like that and roll it, somebody says to me, ‘you can’t roll a Lancaster’. I said, ‘you bloody can with a fighter at the back of you’ [laugh]. I don’t know how many, I can’t remember how many fighter attacks I dealt with, because I dealt with them before the gunners saw them. Yeah look, ninety minutes to the target, Titch in the tail shouts, ‘fighter, fighter!!’
AM. Eight o’clock.
DE. ‘Eight o’clock level, corkscrew, left, go!’
AM. So describe that to me what that felt like from where you were sat?
DE. Where I was sat, I was glued to a screen, eh, well I used to do this with the armchair to hold myself there, ‘cause I’d be swung about and eh Its corkscrew left, right wing down, nose down, dive four thousand feet eh, and then eh, change the wing so that wing was down and then up and that’s why the corkscrew was like that you see, yeah. And that’s why we hoped that the fighters wouldn’t follow us em, and we through them off most we had, oh we had about twelve fighter attacks so we got used to it [laugh]. But with two very good gunners, they were, they were, I mean Torrey the Mid Upper Gunner shot two down, and he shot two down because em, ‘cause they got too close and he said ‘I waited’ and I was saying to him, ‘cause I was vectoring him onto this fighter coming in, and eh I said to him, ‘he has gone out to starboard but he is just, I can see him, he is just below the em, horizon’. He then said, ‘I can see him’, I said, ‘well watch him because he has no guns on top, he has got to fire out of his wings ‘cause he was a 110’, an eh we knew the German aircraft, we knew them very well, best thing for him to do was to study them. That, I can see him now, ‘cause I am up on top, looking, then I saw this fighter coming up and I said, ‘he is going to get his guns level on you, Torrey’, and Torrey let him have it, killed him, oh he killed him, killed him and eh that was five seconds to our demise. That coming up like that and he got him just before he got his guns level em, oh yes, em. Sometimes we got a bit of excitement.
AM. Ah, probably excitement you could have done without.
DE. Oh god, aye, yeah.
AM. And then it all just came to an end, VE Day, last operation. Just looking at your log book, after the Operation Manna, you did a couple of photographic em.
DE. Oh eh, yes in there you see, eh about ten of us nicked a Lancaster.
AM. Nicked a Lancaster?
DE. Borrowed one and then we, and what have I done now, called it?
AM. You have called it a Special Bombing Photographic.
DE. No, I didn’t.
AM. Was it later than that?
DE. Yeah.
AM. Let’s have a look.
DE. Oh we did a Cooks Tour as we called it, we borrowed an aircraft, well there were plenty [unclear] and I think it was about ten of us and we went round the Cooks Tour, up over the Ruhr and the targets we done and had a look at them, and we were shattered. We were shocked at the damage we’d done and eh fighter affiliation, that is you meet up with a Spitfire and it is trying, its got cameras and it is trying to shoot us down with cameras, yeah and that is where we learnt to fight night fighters. And then on 69 Reserve Flying School, I was, of all the flight crew, that was navigators, pilots, navigators, radio operators em, were given a five year call up if you like and em, they gave us an aircraft and we had a lovely time, this was after the war.
AM. Just before the after the war bit, so we have had VE day, you’ve nicked your aircraft and had a bit of fun going round looking at the bomb sites. How long, what, what happened to you then between then and demob, because it was usually quite a lengthy time wasn’t it?
DE. I don’t know why but eh I, I was posted to eh em, electronic school and I qualified as an electronic engineer then, and then I got on a fighter squadron, servicing their gear.
AM. In, in England.
DE. Yeah, and then I got posted to ruddy Scotland, Leuchars, do you know Leuchars?
AM. I don’t know it, but you talked about that right at the beginning.
DE. And eh -
AM. It’s Coastal Command isn’t it up there?
DE. Yes, it used to be Bomber Command and then it was Coastal Command. Because I think they took off from there and the adjacent station to bomb the ships in the fjords, that’s the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau and then em, I had been there a little bit and I was just about getting acclimatized I was posted to St. Leonards, the point of Cornwall.
Unknown. Penzance.
AM. About as far away as you could get.
DE. Yeah, and I thought to myself eh and I thought my demob number is number 53 and they are demobbing 45, ‘I’m not working’, I went. I went looking round the beach and I saw a bungalow for to let and I went in there and I didn’t turn up for work. But what I’d done was, I went into the, into the other aircrew that I was friendly with and I said, ‘book me into the mess will you, for each meal and sign Derek Evans’. Eh after a fortnight I thought, I wonder if they have missed me?
AM. So what did you do, just generally played about on the beach and had a rest?
DE. On the beach it was lovely, a bit of surfing and that, I was fit then and em, one morning I thought ‘I wonder if they’ve missed me?’ So I got on me bike and rode to the station, I went through a fence where the radar section was and somebody says, ‘the Adj. is looking for you’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘Is he?’ I went in front of the Adj. and eh ‘you have been absent without leave’, I said, ‘no I haven’t, go and look at the meals register’. Well he couldn’t get anywhere so he said, ‘you had better go and see their Radar Officer in charge of the radar section’, and eh he said, ‘you have been absent without leave’, I said ‘no I haven’t’. Bit of an argument and I thought ‘bloody bloke, he has been here all the blinking war, telling me off’, and at the end of the argument, I said ‘what you need is a bit of air under your arse’ [laugh] flying.
AM. And he said?
DE. Put me on a charge for insubordination and I went in front of the CO, and he says, he says, ‘you shouldn’t demonstrate discipline like this’. He gave me a right ticking off. My demob came up then about a fortnight after and I went in front of the same Group Captain, and he says ‘will you sign on?’ I said ‘after what you have told me’, he said ‘I have got to talk in front of these buggers’. But he had the same medal ribbons as me and I knew what he’d done [laugh], then eh I went, I, I, left then and he says, ‘I’ll guarantee you promotion to Squadron Leader in five weeks if you sign on’. He says, ‘we are losing’, he said ‘you are experienced ground crew, experienced aircrew’. I said ‘you’ll be right now’, I said. He said ‘Squadron Leader’, and I said ‘no’ I said, ‘I am going back to my own patch where I served an apprenticeship’ and I did.
AM. And that’s what you did. Were you married by then Derek, did you meet your wife in the war, during the war or afterwards?
DE. After the war.
AM. It was after.
DE. I wouldn’t entertain [unclear]
AM. Of course, you are still only twenty two or twenty three at this point, you were still only a baby in relative terms.
DE. Twenty two and em yes, quite a few contacts with WAAFs especially in the, well that’s put it politely, and there was one or two wanted to marry and I says ‘do you know what job I am doing?’ I says ‘tomorrow I might be dead’, I said, ‘if anything happened you became pregnant’ [unclear]. I said ‘no, I won’t attach myself to anybody’ and I think I did right. I eh was posted to Verne, that is near Selby and there’s a Holding Unit. They had bods in there and they were saying ‘I need six so and so, right six out of these’, and eh I was, I was driving up past the racecourse in Doncaster which was, well my mother’s home was there, just near the racecourse and I saw this WAAF working, walking on her own and I pulled up and I says ‘hello, what are you doing here?’ She was one of the Kelstern teleprinter operators. She said ‘I have been posted to Verne’, I said, ‘that’s where I’m going, get in’, so I took her up there, and eh I did marry her actually, eventually. Me dad said to me, when I took her home the first time, ‘she’s no bloody good to you, you know’. My god, was he right, I didn’t last long with her.
AM. So this wasn’t Edna then. That wasn’t Edna then because I know that your wife that you have been married to for a long time, was Edna.
DE. No, I don’t know if it is for publication actually. She was a chemist was Edna and she was in, worked in Boots, just down, and I managed an office equipment shop, just above and we just used to say ‘hello’, you know, nothing and eh, I was living with me father and I was in the pub one night and I used to meet all the builders and business folks, ‘cause I used to collect business, you see. And em, ah, I am trying to think of his name now, Terry it was, anyway I said to him ‘Are you building any houses?’ He said, ‘I have got whole estate going at ‘em’. I said, ‘have you anything cheap?’ He said, ‘Well I have a very nice bungalow, er, next to the field which we are not building on’, I said, “oh, what do you want for it?’ and he said, “two and a half thousand pounds’. I said, ‘I’ll have it’, and I bought it off him in the pub [laugh]. I move in there and I was in there for a bit and eh I kept seeing Edna, I used to chat with her, nothing extraordinary. She said ‘What have you done then?’ I said ‘I have moved from me fathers’ place, I’ve bought a bungalow in [unclear], a brand new one’. ‘Oh’, she said, ‘what’s that address?’ Anyway, bless her, I am having my dinner one day, I used to go, it wasn’t far from where I worked. She knocks at the door, she had all her cases with her. I said ‘what are you doing?’ She said ‘I’ve come to live with you’ [laugh].
Unknown. That’s very forward.
AM. And that was that?
DE. Oh, I took her in and that was it, yeah and I was with her, I have been with her sixty odd years, sixty six years.
AM. How did the, you know, I know you, you talked about what you did after the war, but you know the model building, how did the model building come about?
DE. Well. I used to build models, I have built hundreds, ships, aircraft.
AM. As a hobby, this is a hobby, not as a job.
DE. Yes, and I eh, a friend of mine said, he was one of the officials at the brewery, John Smiths, and I said ‘have you got any property you are getting rid of for nought?’ And he said, “yes, got a nice one in Silver Street, a nice’, but he said ‘but Legards are in it’, but he said, ‘their things coming to an end’. He said, ‘so you had better put in a thing’, so I had a look at it and I thought, ‘this would make a good shop’. I don’t know what, I don’t know what I was thinking of, and then, and then I thought a model shop, yeah, a model shop. Em, the bloke who’s in it, what they call him, I don’t really know him now but, he says ‘Oh, your lease is coming to an end’, ‘cause I rented it from him for a week or two, and he says ‘the lease is, so your rent will have to go up’, so I said to him, ‘why, has your landlord put your rent up?’ ‘No, I am going to see him’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘you had better come back to me and tell me how much you want more’. He came back to me and said ‘you cheeky bugger, you own the place’.
AM. You are the landlord [laugh] and I think on that note.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Derek Carington Evans
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-14
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AEvansDC160714, PEvansDC1602
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:42:07 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Derek was born on June 20th 1924 in Edlington near Doncaster, volunteering as aircrew at the age of 17.
After leaving school at the age of 14, Derek delivered books in and around Doncaster before going down to the Royal Air Force Recruitment Centre in Doncaster and signing up for service after developing a love of aviation after seeing Vimmies and Heyfords.
Derek passed his exams for a pilot, however trained as a wireless operator because of his knowledge of Morse code. When he was crewed up, his team flew in Wellingtons at RAF Finningley, with 18 Operational Training Unit.
Derek then was transferred to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Blyton, where he worked on Halifaxes, before being posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, flying on Lancasters.
He completed operations to Essen, Dortmund, Cologne and also targeted the oil refineries. Derek also took part in Operation Manna, dropping supplies in Holland.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Essen
Netherlands
Germany
18 OTU
625 Squadron
Absent Without Leave
aircrew
Anson
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Dominie
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military discipline
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Blyton
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
superstition
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/594/8863/PLarardFN1502.2.jpg
e95a36a7c631065f2b5836292bde8c1f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/594/8863/ALarardFN150717.1.mp3
11a9ba24d46253d20de78474d04f6b7b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Larard, F N
Larry Larard
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Larard, FN
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant F N Larard DFM (183900 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MJ: Now. It’s on. It’s ok.
LFNL: When I was on the reserve I was called to London and took a mathematics exam. Having passed the mathematics exam I had a medical examination and I was assessed as PNB, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. From there I was eventually called up and I went to Air Crew Reception Centre, St John’s Wood, London. Warrant Officer Apse was the only man that mattered there. He was a very very great man and he was a hard disciplinarian but a fair man and he used to say, ‘If ballet dancers can be in step why can’t you lot who are supposed to have brains?’ From there I went to Initial Training Wing in Scarborough and when I was at Scarborough I realised that it was going to take me a long time to qualify as a pilot so I elected to be a rear gunner and so from Scarborough I went to Dalcross in Scotland and did my gunnery training at Dalcross in Scotland which is now Inverness Airport. From there, when I passed out I went to Peplow in Shropshire Operational Training Unit. It was on Wellingtons. John Marks was my skipper. Eventually we all teamed up in the hangar as, as was always done there and I joined, joined the Operational Training Unit at Peplow in Shropshire. When we passed out of Peplow, which might interest you, it must be civil servants that made Peplow’s runway because it sunk in to the ground halfway around and the air traffic control lost sight of you when you went down into the hole before you became airborne. From there we went to Lindholme. We were on Wellingtons then and then we went to Lindholme for heavy bomber conversion unit on to Halifaxes and it was the first time I realised about Canadian politics. At that time we’d got three Canadians in our crew and three Englishmen and our skipper decided when he wanted a flight engineer to select a Canadian. He did but when the rest of the crew knew he came from Quebec they said, ‘We’re not flying with him.’ So we had to change the flight engineer and the flight engineer eventually came from, where did he come from, Nottingham. He came from Nottingham and he joined us then and at Lindholme after the heavy bomber conversion unit we went on to the Lancaster finishing unit which was at the same time at, at Lindholme. From there when we passed out on Lancasters we went to 625 squadron at Kelstern near Louth. Eventually, when we’d been there a bit we were asked to volunteer for special duties at number 1 Group Special Duty Flight at Binbrook which we duly did and we moved over to Binbrook on the special duties flight. Group Captain Edwards VC was the commanding officer at Binbrook but he wasn’t our commanding officer. Our commanding officer was Air Commodore [Hoppie Raye] from number 1 Group headquarters at Bawtry. And from Binbrook, when we were training we went to St Tudwall’s Island off Wales every night to bomb a light in a, in a monastery. We didn’t know why. [We always had this light] we used to go and that was the special duty flight and we were trained to do that. And we’d already finished a tour actually of Binbrook on 625 but now we were being trained, we didn’t know it to bomb in Europe on marshalling yards and things like that, small marshalling yards and that’s what we did. On VE day we’d got a railway bridge to blow up that’s leading troops into into up to the British troops and so we realised what we were doing then but our crew stayed together even after the war. As I say we were three Canadians and four English. We stayed, we stayed friends and the only one apart from me that’s alive now is my skipper’s wife Pat who I’m still in touch with.
[machine pause]
MJ: You were saying.
LFNL: We were one of the few crews where every member of the crew got decorated.
MJ: That’s quite good.
LFNL: On 625 before we went to Binbrook and we were being trained then, and we didn’t know it to bomb specific targets for the battle, for the invasion of Europe so that’s what the special duties flight was about was accurate bombing. Saintes marshalling yard near Bordeaux we had to go on a bombing run where the prison was the first thing on the roadside, then the hospital and then the marshalling yard. We’d got to hit the marshalling yard. Unfortunately, we didn’t hit the hospital but we knocked the wall down of the prison. Our skipper, John Marks, felt very badly about having knocked the wall down of the prison at Saintes and when he was on holiday in France he went over to Saintes and he saw the mayor at Saintes and spoke to him and the mayor turned around and said, ‘Look. Yes, you killed a few Frenchman but I’ve got news for you. The Germans would have killed more the following day if you hadn’t so don’t feel too badly about it.’ And that happened at Saintes marshalling yard near Bordeaux.
MJ: Exactly what I mean.
LFNL: But the skipper, he wasn’t happy that he’d, that we’d killed some of the French prisoners in that camp but there you are. But as a crew we stuck together all the weathers, all the time. After the war all our families did, we stayed together. As I say we were an Anglo-Canadian crew and we had no fall outs. We went on leave together. The mid upper gunner came with me, the bomb aimer went with the skipper and that was that so the Canadians were the bomb aimer with the skipper yes oh and Gerry was with me and Tommy the navigator he, he always went to stay with friends down in the Worcester area.
[machine pause]
MJ: You’re on.
LFNL: Our drinking hole at the time was The Lifeboat at Cleethorpes and I’ll guarantee you that the man who ran The Lifeboat at Cleethorpes could tell you how many aircraft had gone missing the previous night by the lack of customers the next day but he looked after us very well, the landlord of The Lifeboat at Cleethorpes and then we used to go across the road from The Lifeboat to The Gaiety Dance Hall and have a dance before we went back to our units.
[machine pause]
LFNL: Bomber Harris’s eightieth birthday was celebrated at the Grosvenor House Hotel in London. There must have been about six or seven hundred of us there. We presented him with a walking stick with a silver handle and it, everybody got up and cheered him. He was supposed to be the person that we weren’t supposed to know. Well we all did and we all stood up and cheered him and he said, ‘Y’know my lads. I made some errors and I cost you lives.’ And he meant that from the heart but anybody in that position of Lord Harris, of Sir Arthur Harris had to make decisions and some of them didn’t work out but he felt it very very much. He did care about his people. He cared a lot about his men but as he said, ‘In my position I made mistakes and cost you lives,’ and I know by the way he spoke he really meant that and it hit him so he hadn’t got the easiest job in the world either.
MJ: No. Right.
LFNL: What, some of the people I remember were the sergeant WAAF in charge of the air crew mess. She was fantastic. She used to see us off then be still there when we got it back. How she managed to get, do it I don’t know. It must have hurt her when some of the tables that were vacant when we got back. The other thing that I remember, two other lots of ladies I remember. Lady air traffic controllers basically were better than the men. And also I always felt for the ladies who transported us out to the aircraft. How they must have felt when they took crews out and then at night when we came back to find that their aircraft hadn’t come back. It must have hurt them a heck of a lot. But I’m sure the lady who was in charge of the, particularly at Kelstern, in charge of the mess there I’m sure she got a lot of food in from the local farmers fed in because the way she fed us we could never say we were hungry at Kelstern.
MJ: No. What made you think that the traffic controllers were better?
LFNL: They never panicked. The ladies never raised their voices at all. If you were coming in in fog and we have come in in some pretty bad fog that you wouldn’t include it as such now but when we came in their voice never changed. You might be having problems getting in because it’s ground control approach. Forget what you’ve got now for goodness sake. Then, all we’d got ground control approach which meant that the lady in the control tower was actually telling you what, where to turn, what speed to do and what height you were. She was guiding you in. She was guiding you in. You had no other. You hadn’t got anything inside the aircraft that was going to help you. She was doing it from radar.
MJ: Oh right. Yeah. [pause] Yeah.
[pause]
LFNL: I agree to what I’ve been saying. My name is Larry Larard. L A R A R D. Retired flight lieutenant Royal Air Force 183900 DFM. Message ends.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command Archive I’d like to thank Larry, oh sorry, Flight Lieutenant Larry Larard DFM for his recording in Thetford on the 17th of July 2015. Thank you very much.
LFNL: Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with F N Larard
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mick Jeffery
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-17
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALarardFN150717
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:14:10 audio recordings
Description
An account of the resource
After being called up, Larry was assessed as pilot, navigator, bomb aimer but changed to rear gunner to avoid the delay in pilot training. He was trained at RAF Dalcross on Wellingtons before moving to RAF Lindholme to convert to the Halifax and then Lancaster
Asked to volunteer for Number 1 Group Special Duties Flight based at RAF Binbrook he completed a full tour of operations specialising in precision bombing. On one operation they attacked a marshalling yard in Saintes but demolished a wall of an adjacent prison.
After the war Larry visited the French mayor who placated his concern at killing French civilians. His crew were one of the very few who were all decorated. He retired from the RAF as a flight lieutenant with a DFC.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Shropshire
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
France--Saintes
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Terry Holmes
1 Group
625 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
control tower
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
ground personnel
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
mess
perception of bombing war
RAF Binbrook
RAF Dalcross
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lindholme
RAF Peplow
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/650/8920/ATrentKL160112.1.mp3
ad84d3cea1d3ea2508452abb41103142
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Trent, Kenneth
K L Trent
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Trent, KL
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Lionel Trent DFC (1922 - 2018, 176283 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a pilot with 576, 625, 617 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
KT: Put your hand up when you –
CB: Yeah.
KT: Are fed up with what I’m saying.
CB: Right.
KT: Or if I’m saying too much of one particular subject. Is it running?
CB: So, my name is Chris Brockbank and we’re in St Helier and we’re just going to talk with Ken Trent about his experiences in the war as a bomber pilot and he did two tours. So if you’d like to start from your earliest recollections please Ken.
KT: Well my first [pause] I started — the first thing I can remember I should say is sitting in the back of a London taxi. I would be how old? Four? Three? Something like that. With my sister and my father. It was in the spring. It was a beautiful day and the pram hood was open on the taxi and we were — it was — but it wasn’t a happy journey. We were going to the [Will Abingdon?] Wing of the Middlesex Hospital to see my mum who was seriously ill. But God looked down on her and she got better and lived another nineteen years which was — but she still died at a very young age of fifty eight. Still, we survived this and then we come to the school. The first school I went to with my sister was St Peter’s, funnily enough. I go to a St Peter’s Church now. And it was across Goodmayes Park. We lived in Becontree and it was across Goodmayes Park and it was a little church school. My mum showed us the way there two or three times and of course in these days you could. Children were quite safe walking around and they used to play in the streets and all this sort of stuff whereas today you know it’s not quite so safe. Well, after we learned the way we used to, we walked to school and we did this for a few days and then we thought it would be a good idea — it was better to play in the park. We had to go cross Goodmayes Park and so we stayed in the park. The biggest problem was to find out the time so that, because we didn’t have clocks but we didn’t want to turn up at home at the wrong time. So as young as we were we weren’t completely stupid. But nevertheless it was only maybe ten or fifteen pupils that went out. Two didn’t turn up. They telephoned and my mum said, ‘Well, they were —’ and of course, so she goes in the park, she finds us and we were in a lot of trouble. She wouldn’t hit us or anything like that but we were in serious trouble. We never did it again. Well we got a little bit older. My mum and dad had a shop in 131 Becontree Avenue and they sold everything and it had a sub post office there. And you know [pause] I’m drying up for the moment.
CB: We can stop for a mo.
KT: Yeah. Just for a second.
[Recording paused]
KT: Ok. I’ve got it. We had a — my dad was a sub post master there. Now, the area was where they had cleared out the slums from East London. And basically I’m an East Londoner and I’m very happy about it. Very proud to be one. And a good Cockney as they say. Anyway, my dad sent me as we grew up and I became old enough he sent me to the local council school and after about a month or a couple of months I came home and the language was not too charming. I don’t think it was swearing but the accent, you know. It was pretty broad. Getting very broad and he didn’t fancy this. So he got me organised in a school in Loughton as a boarder. And the word Loughton School for boys. There weren’t many boarders there. The school would be something like two hundred pupils. There was, there were four boarders and we ate all our meals with the headmaster on the big table and he really eyed over our behaviour and table manners and etcetera etcetera. So at least I learned how to eat in company. Then he had a daughter. Cynthia. I can remember when we were having sausages for breakfast one morning and she said, ‘Daddy do they shoot sausages?’ and you know, it’s kind of funny we thought at the time. Anyway, Cynthia and I were good mates and of course we got caught in the rhododendrons. We thought we weren’t being seen. Finding out the differences between ourselves which I suppose is quite normal of kids at that age. All very innocent. Then following that I mean I was at the school for quite a few years but at one stage and it was at the end when I was ready to go. To to be moved on to another school that I had, we were playing I’m the king of castle, get down you dirty rascal and they pushed me off and I, my feet got caught. I fell down. A kid was running by and he kicked me on the head quite accidentally and so I’m laid out. And it developed into a haemorrhage. An internal haemorrhage in my head. And it showed itself. It was right at the end of term and it showed itself during the holidays. Anyway, they got over all that and or I did but I was in bed for about seven, eight weeks and I wasn’t allowed to get up and I had to keep as still as possible but it all got better. We then, the next thing that happened they entered me into Framlingham College in Suffolk. I think you could call it The Albert Memorial College and it’s in Framlingham and there’s a massive statue of Prince Albert there. But it was normally known as Framlingham College. Well, I went there and I was just on the edge from — I was just a little bit right at the end of junior school so they put me straightaway, this is in the Christmas term and they put me straightaway into the senior school. Now, to be — I completely and utterly wasted my parent’s money. I didn’t work. Apart from maths and arithmetic I, because mainly the headmaster used to take some of the lessons and I got on extremely well with him. Mr Whitworth was his name. And he sailed. And by this time I was very interested in sailing. I’ve been going on about the school but I haven’t talked about the holidays. And I’ll go on with them in a minute. So we go back to holidays. My parents had a little, you would call it a wooden shack on the beach at St Osyth which is known as Toosie St Osyth. There’s a priory there. Well if you go straight down onto the beach onto the, towards the sea, it was on the sea wall. It had about four rooms. It was a wooden shack and it was kind of built on stilts because the front of it was on the ground and the back of it was on stilts because the sea wall was underneath. It was wonderful for us children and there was my sister who was a couple of years older than me, myself and my cousin, Jean. And we, in Easter and summer we were there [noise on microphone] Ok? Yeah. We were there more or less all the time. And our parents would come down and to see us. Now, you imagine three kids and we were all very responsible as it turned out but you wouldn’t think we would be. But we had a ball. We learned how to be self sufficient. We did our own cooking at this very young age. We had a few shillings. We could go. I mean a few pounds I expect but I can’t remember, but there was a fish and chips, or a chippie as they say today, in a hut as you, as you drive over into the area. As you arrive. And we’d go there for fish and chips sometimes. But we, and my parents would come down. Only one of them because the other one would have to be in the shop. Fine. Now, we’ll go back to school. The school, when you get to Framlingham the majority of the pupils came from very wealthy families and some of them [pause] Barry Grant was a pal. He turned out to be a pal of mine. And right at the start he was a wonderful, wonderful musician who had, until he’d got to Framlingham had never had a lesson. But he was in demand. They lived in the Leigh area. You know in Southend and Leigh on the east coast. And he was in the area. He was in. He was required by the cinemas to play the organ in between the films. I think they were Compton organs that used to rise up out of the ground. So when I say he was a wonderful musician this was untrained natural ability. Of course he had his lessons also. You know, music lessons at Fram. So, you would, to give an example you would have a boy, a senior boy who’s got his driving licence or maybe with an L plate would drive to school at the beginning of term in a posh car. Little car. And then they’d take the trunk off the back, in. And the chauffeur would drive it back home. Well, I mean, you know I come out from the East End. My dad’s running an East End little shop and this was another world. Something I’d never ever come across and couldn’t believe but I wanted it. But I still didn’t work at school. I was in all sorts of trouble. Now, the boys. The majority of them, the parents, they were able to ring up the local town Framlingham, the grocer’s shop and get whatever they wanted delivered and they could put it in their tuck box. But we couldn’t do anything like this. We got a shilling a week. And you know their tuck boxes were full. Ours were empty after about a week. Anyway, I had to do something about this and I discussed it with Barry. And we decided that we would go in to the booze and fags business. And we [pause] first of all you’ve got to get out of the school. Well now the school locks up and when its locked they have to have provision for fire. And so by all exit doors there was a little box with a glass front and a key hanging in it and you smashed the glass front and opened the door. So I pinched the key before the end of term. I unscrewed the front of the box. Didn’t break the glass. Put any old key in there. Pinched their key. We put it all back as it was. And then when I’m home our next door, the shop next door was, I used to call him Uncle Dick. Dick Linnington. And Dick was, had been shipwright. Had been a sailor. Had been at sea all his life and I suppose he packed up around about fifty. And he’d started this shop. And amongst other things he cut keys. And it was all done with files. No machines. So he cut me a key. And when I got back I put the proper key back and my key fitted alright. And then we had a large bag that we could cart between us and so off we went to Framlingham Castle. And you’d walk around the back of the school. We came out at the back, go between the tuck shop and the chapel and then you went over a stile into a field and you could walk straight across a couple of fields and you were near Framlingham Castle. And right tucked under, just by the castle was a boozer. A pub. And we went in there and we bought as much as we could afford because I didn’t have much money. As much beer as we could, in bottles. It was just draught beer. The cheapest. In any, in any bottles that they had and they had screw tops so, you know, you could reuse them. And it might have stout. It might have light ale. Brown ale. Bitter. Or whatever. But it was all the same beer regardless. And we had a few packets of fags and we took them back and we found, gradually, carefully found a few customers. And they had to be warned to be very very careful of the cigarette butts. But the bottles — we wanted them back. Well, we actually, we were doing very well with this. We were getting something like between four and five shillings a week each. And in those days I mean our shilling a week, no we would get something like about five shillings a week between us. About two and six. Half a crown each. Which, when you consider that our weekly money, you know, pocket money was a shilling. We multiplied it. Anyway, we were doing alright. Well when we dragged this lot back and go down the corridor into the chapel and Barry of course. I was in the choir and when I was sitting in the choir I could see him pumping the organ and I had seen him take a sip out of the communion wine before now. Anyway, we stored the stuff in the organ and I mean at times Barry played the organ and then I was pumping it. We had quite a nice little business but nobody ever found out and we escaped. Now, I expect you know I’m writing a book and I wonder, I just wonder what they’re going to think when they, when they read this. Anyway, apart from that I was lazy. I was quite good at tennis, table tennis and squash. I mean there were everything was available there. From swimming, you know. There was rugby in the winter. In the Christmas term. Hockey. And cricket of course in the next two terms. And then there was riding. Tennis. All sorts of stuff on the side. Ok. Well we get to the end. The day before I left school I got the stick from prefects for smoking. I mean me. Getting caught smoking and I’d been so careful. Nobody had been rumbled with cigarettes. Well they may have been rumbled but they never — they didn’t leave butts around. We’d got them all, the smokers, pretty well trained who were our customers. But then I got caught. Stick off prefects is not a very pleasant thing. You, it’s at 9.30. After prayers. And you were in your pyjamas and you go down to the set room and it was four strokes. I think it says six in the book but that’s a bit of an exaggeration. It was four strokes and they, the prefects, there were two of them. One of them who I can remember distinctly. His name was Bellamy and he was in the first eleven as a fast bowler. Well, they would have a run up of about seven or eight, ten paces and run in and lay it on as hard as ever they could. And by the time you’d got four strokes — the biggest thing you mustn’t make a noise. I mean you’ve got to show, ‘Sod them. They’re not going to get me.’ And you’ve got to shut your mouth and keep it shut and just let them do it. As the thing that you just let them do it. Let’s do it. Just get there and just accept it. And of course when you’ve finished if you’re lucky you’ve just got massive bruising with welts on your bum. And if you’re unlucky you might have a little drop of blood. But you know I know this sounds in this day and age absolutely terrible but it did me no harm at all. And I realised that you know the rules. You break the rules you go for what you’ve got to get. But the people it may have damaged are the people that were dishing it out because they looked after their canes and they got anti-shock absorbers and stuff you know which I don’t think was very good training but nevertheless it happened. And that was the system as it was ninety, eighty years ago. Right. I left. And I left [pause] and for the winter term 1939 war was declared. I got myself a job. No. That’s really not true. I was lucky enough to get a job because my dad knew the chairman of John Knights. The soap company. And the job was really — I was obviously going in the services so it was a kind of semi, it was, it was a fill in and I must have been there for quite some time but all of a sudden all the men disappeared and the ladies, girls and ladies and women were taking over the running. It was a fantastic effort that they put in and they made a wonderful job. It wasn’t long before — and the other thing the company moved from Silvertown to Loughton. Strangely enough Loughton where I’d been at school. In a very large house with a lot of outbuildings and the office was all run from there and they’d fixed it all up. And I worked very very hard. I would stay the night in the big building all night. I camped in the big building and I had to keep — you know, things were different. There was a war on and everybody had to try and do their bit and I suddenly found although I didn’t do any work at school at all. Terribly lazy. I suddenly found there was an object in this and I could work until the job was done. And I did. And I worked. I worked all the hours and sometimes up to 10 o’clock at night and then I would camp down in this big house and there were — I mean I wasn’t the only one. There would be one or two others camping there as well. This was the spirit of England at that time. Anyway, it wasn’t very long before I found myself running the London forward section. The forward meaning arranging the invoicing and statements. No. I don’t think statements. Invoicing and organising deliveries to people in the London, to shops in the London area. Well at the time I was still there when the Channel Islands were taken over and although it didn’t affect me there was a big panic going on because of the money that was owing and orders to the various places. Nevertheless, I was also a member of the — what did they call it? Cadets. RAF cadets. Locally in Ilford. And we used to go there and you know I would be about eighteen and I thought I ought to join up and I would have only just been eighteen because it was December. And my eighteenth birthday would be in November. And so I applied to join the RAF. What as? I said pilot. And I really regretted not working at home, you know. At school I should say. I really regretted that because if I had I would have had no problems and I was thinking I’d never pass any of the exams. I’ll never pass the exams. Nevertheless, in just a few weeks I’m called to Uxbridge and I go down there and the exams were not that hard. And I did the exams. That was fine. Then we had to have an interview and I thought — well if they see my school record what chance have I got? It’s going to be absolutely dreadful. And you know this is something. Anyway, I’m worried. I wanted to be a pilot so much. I, eventually there was about seven or eight of us outside a room and you know, somebody had gone in and then he had come out and he said, ‘Trent. You’re next.’ So, I went in. Stood to attention and there was a bloke. Immaculately dressed. About ten years older than me. A bit older than me and he started off, ‘Where did you go to school?’ I said ‘Loughton School for Boys.’ And then I moved on as I got older. Oh I called it a prep school. It wasn’t a prep school but it sounded better, Loughton School, Prep School for Boys. Anyway, then — and the the next school? I said, ‘Framlingham College.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Which house?’ I said Garrett. ‘Oh’, he said, ‘I was in Garrett House as well.’ I got no problem. I’m in. and he said, you know, and all we talked about was school and Rupe and Pop and Colonel and all the other masters and stuff and those were their nicknames. Anyway, so I’m in. I go home and just a short time after that — maybe a month six weeks, I get a [pause] I, yes I think I went, no — I went to Uxbridge. And then from Uxbridge, there was a bunch of us, we were given railway warrants to Torquay. Number 9 RW. Receiving Wing. And we arrived down there and they kitted us out with all the stuff and were starting to march us up and down. Showing us how to make your bed for the daytime so that all the sheets are folded in a certain way and the blankets and all the, well for want of a better word the bull shit that they have in the services. And there they also I mean they started the marching and this, that and the other and also polishing your bloody boots. All the equipment that was issued including a thing called a hussif and the hussif was your needle and stuff like this for repairing your clothes and the word derives from housewife. Anyway, we also had loads of injections which made us feel a bit rough. But after, it was only about a week, seven or eight days we were posted to [pause] I can’t remember the number and I’ve got it in the book but it was an IT, Initial Training Wing at Stratford On Avon which is a beautiful lovely town. And we were in the Shakespeare Hotel right on the top of, you know, the top hotel in there. The only trouble is they’d taken out all the goodies but it was still a lovely place to be. We started the lectures. You know, there’s maths and navigation, theory of flight, instruments, map reading. You know, general things you would think you would need. And I worked hard. And, you know, just as an aside we used to church parade on a Sunday and I’m not sure if we got — I think we got a half a crown a day. That’s the seventeen and six a week and because I wanted to survive the war I thought it might be a good idea to give God a good donation every Sunday. So he got five bob of my seventeen and six every week. And I don’t know. Silly. But I did it, you know. That’s how you feel, and I’ve always attended church when possible and still do. Anyway, so, mind you with the behaviour things you wonder [laughs] you know. But there’s got to be some bad Christians as well as good ones. Anyway, so I went on from there. We had the exam. And all of sudden there was a massive panic. And before you could say, ‘Pack your bags. Pack your bags.’ Go to West Kirby. Or is it East Kirby? It’s by Liverpool. And we are — West Kirby isn’t it? Yes. And we are put aboard the Leopoldville which was a dirty old Polish tramp steamer. And we’re off. We’re off. We don’t know where we’re going. The boat’s going. But we wind up in Iceland. Now, on the way there was one big room with camps [pause] with what do you call them?
CB: Hammocks. Hammocks.
KT: Hammocks. That’s right. I couldn’t get the word. With hammocks. And underneath there were tables and underneath there’s the deck or the floor. And there were — guys were spread in the hammocks, on the tables, under the tables on the floor. And do you know I think being a bit on the selfish side I found a little corner for myself in a corridor and I slept. It was only a few days. Three, four or five days. And I slept — and in the corridor. Well one morning the old, you know, weather had gone a bit sour. The sea was getting up and the old tub was rolling all over the place and in the morning when I went into the big room there was about, I don’t know how much, a foot of water, a couple of feet of water and as the boat was rolling it was sloshing from one side to the other. Because they hadn’t secured the portholes properly and so every now and again until they got them secured they had like full steam hose. You know. And of course there was now a big dry out required and one thing or another. But I was happy in my little corner and I was very lucky. I must tell you the toilets. They were so absolutely abysmal. It was a plank. A big plank with several holes cut in it and it was on the port quarter. Secured. With hand holds. That’s where you performed in front of each other. But it was quite efficient because they just used to hose the deck off and it all used to go over the side so that, because the boat didn’t have sufficient toilet arrangements for the people, the number aboard. Anyway, we got to Iceland. We get unloaded and we go inland to a place called Helgafell. We were, we were sleeping in half built Nissen huts. We’d all got camp beds. Not camp beds. What do you call them? Sleeping bags and all this stuff and our kit bags and this and we slept in these Nissen huts. You know, one end, the end we were in, one end was open but there was lots of us and we were all started on the floor. And then when you woke up in the morning you weren’t cold and you’d all squash together in one big lump of human flesh and everybody was warm and it was ok. It wasn’t as bad as it sounds. We ate there. Well one of the things in Iceland they’ve got hot springs and of course we’d got to have a go at that. It mean it was not warm and it wasn’t the middle of winter. It would be spring. It would be but it was a bit of snow around but not — it wasn’t too bad. So we were in there. All of us. Oh about twenty. Twenty, thirty of us. All out of our hut swimming. Hot. Beautiful. Smashing. And then all of a sudden a whole load of young girls turned up and they all get in. They’re all swimming. And they’re in the nude as well. So we couldn’t get out of the water and it was tricky. Anyway, we get back into town and we are put aboard a large liner and I don’t know the name of it. It was not the QE, the Queen Elizabeth. We went to Halifax. We’re stuck on a train for five days going to Swift Current which was where our EFTS — Elementary Flying Training. The journey was long. The trains are enormous. They are over a mile long. The whole lot makes England’s train system look as if its Hornby. Anyway, when we got to Winnipeg [pause] no. It was Trenton. I beg your pardon. It definitely wasn’t Winnipeg. It was Trenton. They had laid on, the powers that be had laid on a dance and they’d got a load of local girls with finger, finger stuff to eat and this, that and the other. And it was all very kind and lovely but then the Canadians are lovely because basically my family are all Canadian bar my sister and myself. So, then we eventually get to Swift Current and then we start with the lessons and then you know, you work hard and the actual work, the whole thing was easy. We had an interesting character on our course called Jimmy Edwards who I expect most of you have heard of and know. He did, at the beginning of the lectures before the lecturer had turned up he would stand in the front with his cane and doing exactly the same thing as he did after the war on television and in the theatre for millions of pounds. Anyway, that was Jimmy. The interesting bit is the first time you fly. And you go around. I can’t remember the name of my instructor. He was not liked. The other two pupils. There were three. He had three pupils. The other two asked to be exchanged, to change. To change. I really got on with him. He was, for me, just the right guy and he takes you around. There’s a Pitot head and you check your Pitot tube. You have to make sure the Pito tube doesn’t have a sock over it to look after it. And you check the ailerons, rudder, elevators and general look around and you look in the cockpit. This is the first time I’d ever seen. You know, you can imagine the excitement. Got the flying gear on. All the business. And you look and he was explaining the bits and pieces. And needle, ball and air speed is the basic thing for a Tiger. Anyway, we get in and he takes the thing off. And he instructed me to hold the stick with — between my fingers and not with a grip. And I suppose this is in case you freeze on it. Anyway, at take off and he showed me how to fly straight and level. You know, you’ve got to get the needle and the ball and you’ve got to maintain the same airspeed. And you know, it was not difficult and it wasn’t very long. Maybe ten minutes, quarter of an hour before I got the hang of just flying straight and level. I hadn’t done any turns or anything like that. And he said, ‘Now ease the stick forward. Ease the stick forward. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.’ And he said, ‘Now you’re doing about a hundred and twenty. Now ease it back. Back. Back. Come on. Back. Back.’ Bingo. We did a loop. And I did it. So the first time I ever got in an aeroplane I did a loop. And that to me is something. Anyway, then he shows you how to, you know rate one turns and turning. To give you the whole description would take a long time. So we go on, come in and land and he shows me how to land and you know he does this three or four times and then he lets me have a go with the, with the stick and he’s kind of guiding me. But anyway, this is kind of normal. The way we trained. And this went on for a while. Over a few days, maybe a couple of weeks and I can’t remember the hours. I’ve got them written down. I can’t remember, I think they were just short of four hours. Three forty, three fifty hours I had done at the time and I’d just done a landing and I’d taxied to turn into wind again to take off and in my book I said, “God got out.” And he said, you know, he just got out. ‘See what you can do.’ And I took off. No problem. And I’m in the air going up and I’m screaming at the top of my voice, ‘Mummy, if you could see me now.’ And I came around and did the thing. Came in and did, as far as I remember a pretty good landing. I don’t know. Anyway, I got it on the ground so it must have been good. But I couldn’t leave it. I opened the taps again and did another circuit. And i thought, ‘God, I’m going to be in trouble for that.’ I came in and landed and I would have loved to have done another one but I turned and taxied up to him thinking I’m going to be in trouble. And he was so pleased. But I got on with him all the time. They moved from Swift Current. They moved the whole — oh I must tell you. While I was there we bought a car. Four of us. Two dollars fifty each. It was a Model T Ford. It was another thing to start a Model T Ford in cold. Thirty below, forty below because this is by the — now we’ve gone through the summer. We’re in the winter. Zero. I’ve got to tell you quickly. You jack up the back wheel. Of course there’s no water. That’s all out. You stick the handle in the front. You don’t switch on because there’s a magneto and you just wind the handle and it’ll start. I wonder if I’ve got this right. I think it is. Anyway, it starts and you leave it warming for a while. Now you want some hot water. Some hot water with you. And after you’ve got it running and it has warmed up a bit you stop it, pour the water in, restart and it should start no problem. No. Sorry. You don’t stop it. You just pour the water in the radiator but if it stops you’ve got to get the water out of the radiator straightaway because it’ll be frozen in no time. Anyway, and the tap will work because the tap will be hot. Anyway, as soon as you’ve got that and you get it running for a while then you have to stop it and put the fan belt on because the fan belt drives the water pump. But before you do that you’ve got to pour water on the water pump to thaw it out. And then you put the fan belt on. Start it. And now you want somebody to push you off the jack. And then you’re away. It’s quite a car to drive actually because the handbrake is part of the gearing mechanism. So if you’ve got the hand break is on now you take it half way off and you’ve got a pedal that you press and when you push that the car goes forward. And then you put the handbrake off and then take your foot off the pedal, off the pedal and you are in top gear. So if you are on the ground and — if you’re stationery I should say and you start it and then you take the handbrake all the way off it promptly stalls because you’re putting it in top gear. Anyway, there we are. That’s enough of that one. We moved to Innisfail. The whole outfit. And we weren’t allowed to drive the car. It was about four hundred miles. We flew the aircraft and we got two ground crew and we got them permission and they drove it the four hundred miles and they had a wonderful holiday apparently because by — anyway then we flew and there was, it was very easy. You know, it’s easy flying in Canada because everything is marked in squares and all the roads go north or south. North south or east west. And you can’t go wrong. All you’ve got to know is the latitude and it is so easy. Anyway, we get there and we had a Chinook wind. Now a Chinook — it’s a very hot. It’s very hot and it was over night and the whole place is white and covered in snow and the snow would have been on the ground unless there had been a previous Chinook wind. It would have been on the ground since about September-time as it fell and it would stay there if there was no Chinook wind right the way through until the spring. But we had, they do get, in Alberta they do get a few Chinook winds and the — when you wake up in the morning most of the snow has gone. All the snow on the ground but the stuff in the hilly or where there were big drifts, yes there would be snow there but basically it had gone. But the thing it did it thawed out the top of the lakes and so all of a sudden you’ve got water on top of lakes and then a couple of nights later it’s all frozen again and you’ve got ideal skating conditions. Anyway, we met a couple of, they were, you know the Canadians were very good and very nice to us and in the [pause] they were asking us to their homes for a meal and stuff and my pal Bob Sergeant and I got invited to a Mrs McGee for a meal. And when we got there she was, she was a widow. Her husband had died and she had two beautiful daughters. Just right. And they were around about, you know, our age or maybe just a little bit less but more or less our age. And of course it wasn’t very long before the rest of our stay in Innisfail. This is, I don’t know if I told you we went from Innisfail from Saskatoon er Swift Current. To Alberta. To Innisfail which is not far from Calgary. Anyway, so we had a great time with the girls and finishing the course, took the exams and then I was posted, along with the rest of the course to North Battleford in Saskatchewan. And then big disappointment — onto Airspeed Oxfords. So that meant I wasn’t going to be one of these lovely boys with the Battle of Britain guys who used to be at High Beach with all the best birds and a little car and stuff like this with their wings. And these were the Battle of Britain guys. And this was the thing that, I used to go to High Beach with my bicycle and this was really part of the reasons why I joined the air force. To see them. Well, so I’m going to be a bomber pilot. And we did the course. There was no problem with the course. One of the strange things, well, one of the things that happened — we were on a — of course there was a big thing about navigation and etcetera. So, navigation. I was up as the navigator and there was another pupil as a pilot and we had a route to take and I got utterly and completely lost. But there’s a bonus also in Canada because they have grain elevators and I came, we came down or he came down and we read the name of the grain elevator and it was Humboldt in Saskatchewan. I had an auntie who lives in Humboldt and actually she’s been to Jersey where I live now. This was years ago. Forty odd ago. And she’s been here with us when our children were very small. And she lived to a hundred and ten. And she died when she was a hundred and ten. Auntie Dorothy. Well, it was, it was her home town but having found that out and I found my way back to where we should have been but I made a complete imagination of the course I should have done. Filled in wind drifts and everything else and it was just a load of [pause] it wasn’t rubbish because it was as my guess for what would have, you know what it would have been like if we’d done the right thing and I put it in and with my fingers crossed it was going to be all right. And I got a passed. I can’t believe it but I did. Anyway, we eventually, we get to the wings exam and there were a hundred and forty of us. A hundred and forty passed it. I don’t know how many, how many failed. But Jimmy Edwards was twenty second and I was fifteenth. So I had worked hard. The first forty got commissions. But I, don’t forget I was out of the east end of London really and I was not considered to be officer material. Well I think really they’re right. Anyway, I didn’t, I didn’t get a commission. I was made a sergeant pilot and then the worst deal of all of course I’d sewn my wings on. That was about two minutes after. As soon as I got in. The first thing. We were all doing it. Anyway, I was posted to [pause] I can’t remember the number. It was a bombing and gunnery school at Mont-Joli on the banks of the St Lawrence in province Quebec. It was on the south bank facing north and it was literally just a few hundred yards away from the airfield. And we were flying Fairey Battles. And some of them had a gun at the back and they had UT pilots. Not pilots. Gunners under training. And then there would be two or three others that used to tow drogues. And the guys used to fire into the drogues. And so we were doing fifteen, twenty minute flights up and down up and down with different gunners all the time. I mean it might have been twenty five minutes — the flights. I can’t remember. But then you’ve got to taxi in, turn around, taxi out and take off and do another lot. And it was horrible. I [pause] I wanted, I joined the air force to get in the war and this wasn’t the war. And I just, I got back in to my very rebellious ways again and didn’t do everything right by a long way and of course the flying. It was so boring. I was really sticking my neck out. The first — what the hell was the first thing. There were three major things. One of them. Oh I know. The first one I was, I mean this was not like the western Canada. This is all hills and its beautiful beautiful countryside with hills, valleys and vales and its picturesque and a beautiful area. And absolutely great for fun with an aeroplane because the first thing that I did and never got known — it never became known but it nearly killed me. I’m flying up a valley as low as I can go and all of a sudden I’ve got a complete wall in front of me. The valleys ended and I don’t know what you call it. There would be a name for it. And I haven’t got enough room to turn around. And as soon as I saw it I got as much, I got a bit more height. As much as I could. I went as close to the port side as I possibly could. Stood the thing right on side and yanked the, you know got the stick right back and the bank at the end — must have missed that by about maybe a hundred feet. Maybe twenty. I don’t know but it was close. And then the bank the other side. But you live and I learn. But that’s if you live. And I learned. And the next thing I’m flying over — this is a period of quite a few months, I’m flying over a lake, and I’m going. Its ice and its winter and it’s and all of a sudden boom boom boom boom boom and it’s not much faster than that. I thought a propeller touching the ice would be brrrrrr but it’s not. It’s bang bang bang bang bang. Anyway, I eased the stick back and she came off. Now if you pull the stick back you hit your tail wheel on the ice and that would be curtains. So I was lucky. I didn’t really know but I eased the stick back, came off and the whole lot is like a big shaking machine because the propeller’s all out of balance and it was absolutely dreadful. So I went up to three thousand. I got up to something like three thousand feet and flew back to base and I thought well now the engine can’t stand this for long. It’s going to pack up and I’ll stick it on the ground on it’s, without the wheels and they won’t see anything about the propeller. And I flew. But you know the Merlin engine is a bit better than that. And I wound around in the end and I’ve got no fuel left. Well I had fuel but it was just a little fuel. I was running out of fuel so I came in and landed and I landed with the brakes on or I put them on straight away with the stick as far forward as I could get it thinking she’d stand up on her nose. But it didn’t happen. Went down and then the tail flopped down. Of course I hadn’t got any brakes. I’d burned them out. Well I taxied in and on Mont-Joli there was a big ditch both sides of the taxi strip. And so you’ve got to go faster and faster and faster to maintain your direction because [pause] and in the end I just cut the engines and she went on and she did a big circle to the left and she came up. I’ve got — she came up right outside the CFI’s, Chief Flying instructor’s office. Right bang outside with a bent prop. And he was out of that office before you could say knife. And he swallowed the story. I said I’d run into a snowdrift and that was right. But the station commander was a different cup of tea. He was older. He had grown up children and he said, ‘Come on. I’ll take you. Show me the marks on the runway,’ and there weren’t any marks of course. So, he said, ‘Now I know what you were doing. Now, tell me. I’m not going to do anything about it.’ And he wanted me to admit that I’d lied and I wouldn’t. So I carried the lie on. Rightly or wrongly I did. I said. I didn’t tell him. I stuck to my story. Well I know it was a big mistake because it had repercussions later. Oh months. A couple of months. Later on there was. Anyway, I was up but for the first time ever I was pulling a drogue. Now, I’d never, I was, you know I’d always had the fighter guys. You know the gunner guys. Anyway, so we’d done the exercising and one thing and another. And then you come over the dropping area. You drop the zone and then the drogue and then you circle around, land. And that’s that. Well, I thought before I do that I’ll do a few steep turns and watch the drogue go past me in the opposite direction. I thought well that would be a bit different. And I did that. Now, when you come out of a steep turn you take, a steep turn is you’ve got the kite almost on its side. Not quite. With the stick well back and the stick which is the elevators — those are the things that are doing the turn. And you do the turn. You do the hundred the hundred eighty degree turn. When you come out you take the bank off and you ease the stick forward a fraction. Obviously because you’ve had it back take the bank off ease the stick forward and I went to pull it back and it didn’t come back. So I pushed it forward and pulled it back and it went forward and never came back. And I couldn’t get it back. I pulled it. Did everything and told the crew to get out. I unhitched myself, opened the top and I’m standing in the cockpit looking back and the bloke hasn’t moved. So I got back in the cockpit and I wound the elevator trim fully tail heavy and I was put under open arrest for this lot and they had an enquiry. And the enquiry said that we didn’t come out of it until we were four hundred feet. Now, that is very very low when you’re coming straight down. Anyway, as I wound the elevator full tail heavy and then all of a sudden the stick came back all the way and I then grabbed the elevator controls. A little crank handle on the left side. On your left side. And I started winding it forward as fast as I could and the next thing I knew I passed out of course in the, with the G and we were two thousand feet going up but if I hadn’t taken the bank, wound the elevator trim forward the kite would have gone straight over in to a loop and straight in the ground. Anyway, we got away with it. Came in and landed and the guy in the back although he dropped, they went and dropped the drogue of course. He dropped the drogue but he crashed his head when the kite pulled out and he got a big bruise but and he went sick. But he was alright. He just, he’d just got a big bruise on his head. He hadn’t broken his head. You know. Cracked his skull or anything like that. Fortunately. The next day I did the test flight. They looked and they couldn’t find anything wrong. So [pause] and they put me under open arrest and this would have been because of the previous time that they were taking a strong view. And I hated where I was. I wanted to be in England. I wanted to get onto operations so, and it didn’t look as if I’d got any chance of this happening. So I cleared off and went skiing. And I left actually, with a chap called Doug Wiltshire, I don’t know whether he’s still alive. I’ve lost contact. But he was my Bridge partner and I knew him very well. Well, I left the, I’d arranged with Doug certain times when I could ring him so that I could find out the news. Find out. And the first day I’m away and I’m ringing up. No. No problem. So, the next day I ring up he says, ‘You’d better come back home. They’ve been up.’ The aircraft I was in was the lead of two more. So, there was three of them formation flying. They were up on formation flying exercise and they did a steep turn and exactly the same thing happened. And the bloke in the, who was leading the formation went straight in the ground head first and killed him. Well when I got back I’d broken the — I mean I was under open arrest and it wasn’t just absent without leave it was a much more serious crime but they, they ignored it and they just had me up for being AWOL for two days. And I know that because I’ve got my records and it’s in there. And they gave me a reprimand. But they posted me. It’s quite normal I think when you’ve got in this particular case it was very difficult for the station commander because they hadn’t listened to me and so therefore it had cost two lives. And they don’t know how I’m going to react. What I’m going to do. And I mean I could have, I knew the guy that killed himself. I can’t remember his name. He was a New Zealander and his birthday was the 18th of November. The day before mine. Mine’s the 19th of November. And that’s — but I knew him very well and I could just as well I mean I wouldn’t have done it but they thought I could have, I may have written to his parents and told his parents. So they posted me straight away back to England. Eureka. I’m on the way to get into the, what I joined up for. I crossed the Atlantic on the Queen Elizabeth. No. Not the QE. The Queen Elizabeth 1. I think she finished her days in Hong Kong burning out. She caught fire and burned to pieces. Anyway, before I boarded the boat I bought three Crown and Anchor boards. And it was another, you know, another thing about me or character. There was some money around and I needed some of it and I was, I was more or less broke. I bought the three Crown and Anchor boards for ten dollars to start playing with which is not enough. So I got a board and I start a little game. You know, with a nice cockney accent which I can, which I had and still have basically and I did this – a little friendly game, you know , sort of business. The Americans, there must have been, there were thousands of them. I don’t know. One, two, three. I don’t know how many the boat would hold. There were not many English but there were loads and loads of Americans and they’d never seen Crown and Anchor. And it was a gambling game. They’d got to have a go at this. Well, I built the most important thing with it is that you’ve got to keep all the squares equally. With equal amounts of money on. If you get one with a great pile of money and it comes up and it comes up and it can come out two or three times I would have been broke. So, you, just a little friendly game you know. Oh no. Just. And so — but the money accumulates and it wasn’t very long before I got fifty, sixty dollars. And then of course the limit went up and up and up and then I got another board game. Another bloke — I said, ‘Do you want to earn a bit of money?’ you know. ‘Yeah.’ ‘I’ve got a board. You can set it up.’ And eventually I had the three boards going. I don’t know what happened on the crossing over on the Atlantic. I have no idea. All I did know was I wearing myself out walking around the ship picking up money. And when I got off the ship, I mean the guys that were running the things would have had as much or maybe more, I don’t know, than me but I got off the ship with just over three thousand pounds. Well now three thousand pounds in those days you could have bought a street of houses. But you know we were now in the throes of getting onto operations so the most important thing was to enjoy it. And I did but it took a little while. About a year or something but it was — but I did everything. Anyway, so we get back. We went to West Kirkby and from there I went to Shawbury and actually Prince Harry did some of his training or he was certainly stationed there for a while. I read it in the paper. I didn’t even know Shawbury was still going. And it, again it was Oxfords. And so you get back, you get in the Oxford and off you go up in the air and have a look around. Not a bit like Canada. Canada, in its way had its own kind of grandeur but it didn’t have — I mean, alright, the eastern area yes was very beautiful but when you’re flying over England it was beautiful but there wasn’t a straight road to be seen. I mean, Canada you could, it was so easy, but here you had to be a bit more, you know, it was different careful. And the same applied to the trains. They were just like little Hornby things. Anyway, everything was fine. They went up for a night flight and just familiarisation. I think it was the first time I’d been up and it was just to familiarise yourself with the local area and I flew down to the Wrekin and, you know, I had a look around. And, you know, there was no light. The whole place is, you know, blackout. Anyway, then I flew back and I ran into cloud and there was not supposed to be any cloud. It was supposed to be a clear night. And anyway, so I came down and I kept down to about I don’t know seven or eight hundred feet and I couldn’t see the ground so I went back to the Wrekin and the Wrekin hadn’t been shrouded in cloud. It was clear. And I did a very careful course and with the wind as far as I knew laid off and of course you, you have, you were given the wind speed and direction before you take off so you’ve got an idea of the wind. I laid a course on a timed run to get back to base. I ran it out and there’s nothing. So I came down again to about eight hundred feet and nothing. So I called up and there were thousands of people, hundreds. I don’t know. But the radio was jammed with people in the same situation. So I called up on [pause] I’ve forgotten it — six hundred, eight, anyway it’s the emergency frequency. I do know it but it’s slipped out of my mind.
CB: 121.5.
KT: Sorry?
CB: 121.5.
KT: No. No. It was different. Yeah. Anyway, I called up on the radio frequency on, you know, the emergency frequency. And they came back immediately, ‘Stand by,’ and I started, I flew squares. I can’t remember how many minutes. There might have been three minutes each leg and it seemed like a half an hour but I expect it was five minutes. Ten minutes at the most. And they came back and I asked for QDM to Shawbury and the QDM was 272. So I knew that I was east of the Welsh hills for sure. So I got on to 272 and I put full flap on. Tightened up the strap and dropped the speed down to just above stalling and I can’t remember what it would be. It might have been sixty. Sixty five. Something. But as slow as you could but I haven’t flown an Oxford for such a long I’m not sure. I think the stalling speed was about sixty five miles an hour and with full flap on you would get away with it at sixty. Anyway, so if you did hit anything there was a chance that you might be alright. And coming down like this and down and down and down and down and all of a sudden I see a light on the ground so I immediately put a bit more throttle on and go down towards the, then I see another one and I’m in a funnel. And a funnel is a lighted path before you get to an aerodrome and it leads you on to a runway. So, immediately I’d opened up, got the taps on so there’s no chance of stalling. I’ve got full flap on anyway. I drop the wheels and start coming in and there’s another bloody kite and he’s about — very close on the starboard side. But that’s no problem but you know he just appeared out of the fog and he flashed the same letter as me which was W. And you know didn’t ‘cause you know you were supposed to flash and get the green light that we weren’t messing about or anything like that. I wasn’t messing about or anything like that. So I flew alongside him and I came in and landed. The hut at the end of the runway fired off red flares to stop us landing because there were two kites coming in to land together. But of course I didn’t take any notice of that. Don’t forget by this time I’d got about fifteen hundred hours in and I’d been in the bombing gunnery school. That’s because I was first out. First up in the morning last, last off and I spent as many hours as I possibly could flying. Anyway, came in. I landed on the grass looking across the cockpit. The bloke did a perfectly good landing and then he obeyed the red flare, opened his taps up. A few seconds later he was dead. Or maybe a minute later. He took off. He — and the next thing before I had cleared the runway he killed himself. He’d gone into the ground. I don’t know whether he stalled or what he did. But then I can’t find my way in because I’m, I’m not on our aerodrome and I turned off left which is what I would do at home and I went in to no man’s land. And eventually I rang up and they sent a vehicle and I followed the vehicle in. And when I get there of all the people, I went into the mess and of all the people I bumped into was my Dougie Wiltshire my old bridge partner who I knew in Canada. Who I did the rigging to. Anyway, we’re there. Then we get posted to Lindholme and Lindholme is where we picked up on to Wellingtons and the Wellingtons was a different thing. But we’ve got to get a crew on. We were in an assembly room and all the different trades, you know, gunners and navigators, wireless ops, flight engineers, bomb aimers and etcetera and you just — I found a navigator. His name was Brinley and he’d got, what? He’d passed matric and stuff and I thought I couldn’t pass a bus let along matric. But he must be better than me but he should be able to navigate and we built the crew together somehow. It just happened. They just came together. We had a little tiny chap with the accent. You know — accent. You know. Clarence Derby. He was the rear gunner. Then there we had a mid-upper gunner who at the end of the training and when we were getting ready to go on operations suddenly decided it wasn’t for him and he went. In those days we’d call it LMF. He disappeared. I can’t, can’t remember his name or anything. We had brilliant navigator. Bill Johnson as a flight engineer. Noel Bosworth was bomb aimer. Who have I missed out? Oh Les Skelton, Australian. Still in touch with him. He’s the last one alive. He, he lives in Australia. Lived in Western Australia. I think that’s the whole crew. And then of course we start flying together. One of the interesting things. I pulled the flap. Now in an Oxford they had a flap lever but the propellers were locked so that they weren’t variable but they had a flap lever to try and get us used to [pause] not flaps. What am I talking about? What do they call it? Constant speed. The propeller going to coarse pitch and fine pitch. That’s what I’m talking about. I’m sorry. And when you were in you normally you take off in fine pitch. And to get it in fine pitch you pulled the lever up and the same thing. Well I got all mixed up and I landed up with the Lanc and pulled the bloody wheels up. And I knew immediately what I’d done and pushed the lever down again and they didn’t collapse. They didn’t. They stayed down. Two of them stayed down and the third one came up. It was the tail wheel. And so I got the crew out. I got underneath the tail wheel, lifted up the wheel came down and nobody knew. Luck. Anyway, fortunately I put the, realised and pulled the handle down quick. Anyway, we got, you become if you can fly, I know the kite was much bigger and there was a lot more to learn and you know from the operational point of view but one of the things I remember that stands in my mind was I’m in my mess having my dinner in the evening and I hear a bunch of kites taking off. And then I’m having my breakfast the next morning and they’re bloody well landing. And I’m thinking God they’ve been up there in the dark all night while I’ve been asleep. And I thought, God that’s terrifying. You know. But the training was extremely good and as you progressed through the course it was absolutely no problem. You know it was just, but, you know, the difference between no knowledge and a little knowledge and a lot of knowledge is a big difference. Anyway the thing worked fine. We spent hours and hours and hours on the bombing range trying to do the impossible. Getting a ten pound bomb somewhere near it. But you know if you do it enough times you get a bit better but you never become perfect. We got a lot better and I have dropped one or two real perfect bombs when I was on 617 Squadron later. But with these, S, I think they were called SABS. Semi-Automatic Bomb Site. They’d brought out another thing that had another word. It was like, I think it was an ABS. An Automatic Bomb Sight. That was later. That’ll come in in a minute. Anyway, so the net result we become pretty proficient and towards the end of the, of the course they sent us out on a diversionary thing. So, there was a bombing raid and they sent a whole bunch of us out to try and divert the enemy defence set up and then of course we all came back and landed and that was that. And then we were posted [pause] I cannot remember where. And in my book I don’t think I’ve got it. But it was on to a Halifax. It might be in the book but it’s slipped out of my mind at the moment. But we were posted on to Halifaxes and this four engines and this lasted no more than a week to two weeks at the most. And then we went to, in Lincolnshire, this and I’ve stayed there. The officer’s mess is now a hotel. And the name I know and it’s in the book. And I can give it to, I’ll have a look and I can find, look it up. I will think about because as it happens I managed to get the room I had while I was there.
CB: That’s Woodhall Spa.
KT: No. Woodhall Spa. I did that as well. In Woodhall Spa I got my old room when I went to a 617 reunion. But no, this was, anyway at the time the squadrons had been there or they eventually were there but it was a Conversion Unit onto a Lancaster. And then I’m posted on to Elsham Wolds. 576 Squadron Elsham Wolds and at the same time I’ve gone from sergeant, because I was a sergeant pilot. You became a flight sergeant automatically after six months. But eighteen months later I was still a sergeant because I’d had one or two — well because of the problems I had at Mont-Joli. Anyway, I went from sergeant, flight sergeant to pilot officer in five minutes. You know, when I say five minutes — in a matter of about three or four months. And I was given a bit of leave. I’m not sure if the whole crew was given some leave but I went down to London to All Kits I think it was called. Was it Cambridge Circus? All Kits. Got myself the gear and its surprising. The money was so cheap in those days. I think the allowance and I’m not sure, was forty pounds. And out of that you got a great coat, a uniform, and a couple of shirts I suppose. I can’t remember. Oh, the a hat. Your forage cap would be ok. Anyway, there we were. So I’m now Pilot Officer Trent with my kit bag and I’m off to Woodhall Spa. Not Woodhall Spa.
CB: Elsham Wolds.
KT: Elsham Wolds. Incidentally I’ve hunted at Elsham Wolds. You know. With horses of course. Anyway, that’s a by the way. So I get as close as I can on the bus. Barnetby le Wold. And they dropped me off and I’ve got about three miles walk but it shows how green I was. All I should have done was to have gone into a hotel, got a pint of beer and rung up and said I’m at such and such a hotel and they’d have picked me up. But I walked with my kit bag on my shoulder and I’m walking along a pace at a time. And I get the frights. As I’m walking along and I’m thinking I wonder if I’m going to walk back. I just wonder. And I get on and on and walk on and on and I walk and walk. And eventually I get there and kind of shelve it but you know it’s a thought that’s gone in your mind. I go into the mess. No. Not the mess. Sorry. I went and reported in and a batman showed me my room. I got myself sorted out and then I went into the mess and there was a little bugger, for a better word, with a pint of beer. He’d got wings and he’d got a DFM. And he was my sort of bloke. And the first thing he said, you know, he spoke to me straight away — his name was John Stevens. And John Stevens he’s died years ago. One of his sons, it’s got me a little bit funny because I’m so involved with family. One of his sons is my godson. His daughter lives in Jersey. She lived with us and was married from our house years ago now. Forty years ago actually yesterday. Forty years ago Sunday. But there we are that’s one of those things. They hit you on the soft spots. Anyway, so old John he’d done a tour of operations. And he starts talking to me about, you know, it’s all going on but not at that moment but the information gradually came over. One of the things was where he was such a good friend was he had a car and I didn’t have. So I had to make sure he was a good friend but he was and he said, you know, talking about operating. He said, ‘Be aggressive.’ Now then. This is not everybody’s thought at all but, ‘Be aggressive. If you’ve got any idea you can see one get the boys to fire at it. Be absolutely aggressive. Don’t, whatever you do, go through a target before somebody else is coned. Let, let you know if you’re early, whatever you do do anything but don’t be early what ever,’ And this is something and this is something you’ve trained your own navigators. But there was several things like this you know. That was for getting coned. Avoiding predicted flak. He said that his system that you don’t, you can’t do anything about first bunch. The first lot of flak. That comes and it’s too close for comfort. But you know it’s predicted automatic because there’s nothing going and all of a sudden bang bang bang bang bang all around you. So if you alter your direction, drop your height a bit, say you altered to the right or to starboard and drop down a hundred feet. And then you tell the crew look up there and in twenty seconds you’ll see a load of shells go off and you’ll see and it is. And I got caught, very badly caught in that predicted flak much later on, and when I was on 625 Squadron and taking a new crew. And the thing is keep your head. Keep counting and keep altering your direction and your height up and down. And it’s, there is a lot of luck because there’s more than one gun. There’s a gun battery but if you get another battery starts up then the timing suddenly alters and it all goes a bit wrong. But nevertheless it was all good advice. And we became firm friends and then the squadron was moved to Elsham Wolds. And I got on very well with the Elsham Wold, all the guys at Elsham and including the station commander. Group Captain Duncan did about eight flights with me as flight engineer. And you know so I was I was a bit of a party boy. Not a party boy. What do you call it? I was, it was a nice happy relationship with everyone. And I had, you know, operations. I remember the first operation. It was, this was one you remember the details and it was in Holland. I think the place is called [unclear]. I’ve actually got it. Can you? I think it’s in here somewhere. No it’s not. No. That’s the other thing. Anyway, I remember coming home. It was absolutely a piece of cake. There was no problem. It was daylight. With tonnes of fighters kicking around because it wasn’t, and the only problem coming back between Brussels [pause] I’ve looked all this up. And anyway in the Brussels area we got into a load of flak but otherwise it was nothing. It was an absolutely piece of cake. Well then the operations started and strangely I’ve got I can go through all my operations. Do you want me to do that?
CB: Later.
KT: Well it would take a hell of a long time.
CB: Later. Later.
KT: Yeah. Ok. To just tell you some of the important operations or the ones that stand out in my mind. We were going to Cologne. No. Further in. Where the hell was it? It was, and this is documented everywhere. In the tele, on the computer and everywhere. This particular raid. And it wasn’t Munich. I don’t. No. It wasn’t Munich. It was quite a, a fairly deep penetration and we took off and the, there was a massive cumulonimbus set up and we had to climb up to get over the top of it. And my rear gunner Clarrie had a problem. And he asked if he asked if he could get out of his turret. And he forgot to lock the turret. And the turret turned and trapped his legs. And brother. It says in the official report he requested assistance. In fact he was screaming. God. It’s a bit nerving when somebody’s screaming like made down the — but he, I sent the bomb aimer back, who was his friend, to help him. And when he got there the screaming had stopped. I’d said to him, you know, ‘If you don’t stop screaming we’re not going to do anything about it.’ And I think it would have crushed his legs. I don’t know. But by the time Noel got back there his oxygen had become disconnected and he’d passed out. So, he wasn’t, he wasn’t making any noise but I stopped the starboard outer engine. With the starboard engine drives the rear turret so that to stop the pressure and then he goes back there. He gets Clarrie sorted out and he gets him on the bench. There’s a rest bed just forward of the main spar on the left hand side of the port side of the kite. Anyway, he gets him on there and then I’m faced with do I — which way do I go? Do I go back home? I’m losing height and I’m going into the top of this cumulonimbus lot. And I think just start the engine. When I started the engine it looked as if it was on fire. And I left it until it was on fire and then I stopped it and it went out. So, I started it again. Left it for ten minutes and started it again and it still caught fire. So I stopped it and operated the graviner and the fire went out but I can’t use the engine any more. So I have got no rear turret but I went on to the target. Dropped the bombs. And I couldn’t get over the top of the cu nim coming back because it was a massive big front. So I went underneath and I came down low and I went underneath. And because I was only a few feet above the sea. You know, maybe a hundred feet. Something like that when after we crossed the coast and as luck would have it we never had fighter interest although we were on our own. And so that was lucky. Anyway, coming across and what do we see? A life raft with seven blokes in it. A kite has come down and we managed, we stayed there until we were just about running out of petrol but we managed to get so many things to go towards them to pick them up. There was a [pause] what do you call it, a coaster. I think he was hauling coal backwards and forward. I think it was a collier. I’m not sure but it was certainly a vessel. There was, a destroyer was involved and they motored, you know, small boats they put over the side. But the net result was I flew back and sent their exact position. And we gave their position but we could take you could plot back and give them the exact position. Anyway, they saved the crew. They were all, they picked them up. And then of course I came back and I was well late. Came in and landed and that got the first DFC. You know we did quite a few. The — oh yeah I must tell you this. Whilst in 617 Squadron and I don’t know how many operations I did there. I can’t remember. But because it was anyway I flew three different Lancasters. Now, when I say I me and my crew flew three different Lancasters that all did over a hundred operations and it is the, it’s only a statistic but we were the only bomber crew throughout the whole of the war that did that. You now, this is a heavy bomber crew. And that is, just as I say, a statistic. Anyway, we got moved down to Kelstern. Kelstern is the coldest bloody place in Lincolnshire and it’s the furthest place from a pub and thank God for Steve because we were able to do our stuff. You know. Another interesting thing the first possible night in the week when we were stood down we, Steve and I used to go front row of the stalls in the theatre and eye up the chorus. And you could, you could, there was a bar and the bar was on the right hand side of the stage. So, you went up a few steps onto — and there was this blooming bar and we’d get the direct birds into there and so we got a girlfriend for the week, you know and actually some of them, one or two of them, one of them from my point of view who I got to know quite well. And she said you get “The Stage” and you can find out where I am every week. Which was quite nice. When it was close. Not too far away. But unfortunately I hadn’t got the services of Steve then because [laughs] But anyway, so it went on. But now, what happened then? Then I had finished my tour and none of my crew wanted to stay on. Oh I forgot to tell you. Most important. When we went on to [pause] converted on to Halifaxes I needed a mid-upper gunner and he was a flying officer. Flying Officer Riccomini. And Riccomini spent the rest of his working life in the air force and retired as a squadron leader and I have been up to see him several years but I’ve not seen him, I haven’t been in touch lately unfortunately. I haven’t. He must have moved. But he had a nice house and he lived and he had quite a nice life. So, now, Riccomini was on his second tour so he only had to do twenty operations and he disappeared. Well, when he disappeared I picked up a little bloke. He was Flight Sergeant Arthur and he had done a tour and he was a, he wanted to keep going. So I picked him up as a rear gunner and he became known as Gremlin. And a gremlin was always in the rear turret. And he was, he was an aggressive little sod. He was just the sort of bloke I wanted in the rear turret. Anyway, the tour is finished so I’ve got Gremlin and nobody else. Well, on one occasion I took all the leaders. You know the bombing leader, nav leader, engineer leader and the gunnery leader and, and there was absolute hullabaloo because if we’d been shot down. And so that never happened again. But I wound up taking new crews. Now, a second dickey normally comprises an experienced crew and just the pilot goes with the experienced crew. And he does, this was how my second dickey was. But this time we took the inexperienced crew and the pilot, the inexperienced pilot came with me and would act, along with the engineer, as a kind of second engineer between them. And Gremlin in the tail. But [pause] and we do you know thirty one, thirty two, thirty three thirty four and they’re going up doing these sort of things. And then I got a dead lot. A real, and I, this was to Munich and he lost him. The navigator had lost the plot completely and we were well in over Germany. And we had, I mean I didn’t know at that. I mean one of the things you can get some, you could start to make a bit of a pattern in your mind of searchlight patterns. Where you can see towns. You couldn’t. You know. But Munich is a long way in. Anyway, I dumped the bombs, turned around and I flew. I cannot think of the course but an estimated course of my own. My own [unclear] was going to get me over the North Sea and then I’d go over England and we’d spot — we’d get a pinpoint off the ground. And anyway of course, so what happens we got into really prolonged predictive flak and it went on because I must have been on an unfortunate sort of a heading because I was going from one load of guns onto another lot and it happened. I don’t know how long we were coned, we were predicted but it went on and on and on. To keep counting on following Steve’s advice proved to be quite something but we got through the end of it and at the end of it you’d be surprised how bloody hot you are. I was sweating like a pig. And I don’t know why but maybe it was fright. It’s a thing. I don’t know. But anyway we got back to England. When we crossed the coast the bloke had got the Gee box on and he’d got the, and he told me the course to steer so I never had to go and look for the airfield. He told me the course. We came in and landed and they were sent back for training. And a very strange thing. It’s about fifteen twenty years ago. We knew a hotelier here and he said we’ve got a bloke here that used to be a pilot in the, a navigator, a Lancaster pilot in the war. ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I’ll come and have a chat with him then.’ So I went around there and it was him. Of all the people. He said, ‘Ken Trent. He said `You chucked me out. You sent us back.’ So, I said, ‘Yeah and you’re still alive.’ You know. But anyway, so where have we got to? Now this went on and I’d applied to transfer to 617. Eventually. It wasn’t too long. Oh something before this. We came back and it was thick fog. This is actually — the funny in my voice is nothing to do with the the fog. We were, we were diverted back. I think it was Ludford Magna. And when you got there you could see it because FIDO is hundreds of thousands of gallons of petrol being set alight through little pipes. There was some pipes with little holes in and it’s going out and it takes about a quarter of an hour I think to get the lift the fog sufficiently enough to bring the kites in. But you could see the brightness from quite a long way away. Anyway, so I went to Ludford Magna. The first thing they say is how much fuel have you got? Well if you’ve got three hundred gallons you would say two hundred because you, because you knew what was going to happen. They were going to get you to [pause] and all you wanted to do was get on to the ground. Anyway, so they’d send you on a cross country and then when you came back they would, at the time they would put you in the stack. And you would be on the top of the stack. And I can’t remember whether it was a hundred feet you came down but they would bring, give permission for somebody to land and they would go through the stack an bring everybody down to the next height lower. I don’t know whether it was a hundred feet, two hundred feet. I don’t think it could possibly five hundred feet. That would be too much. Anyway, they bring you all down until it was your turn to land and when I landed and went in there was a message. My mum was seriously ill in hospital and it’s is going to upset me a bit. Anyway, I took off as I was with my helmet in a bag and I just went. You know, flying gear, the whole bloody lot. And they had a railway warrant. I went down. I went to see the hospital and she seemed as bright and cheery as if there was nothing wrong with her. But she’d had, in those days they weren’t anywhere near as advanced with cancer and they’d had a look inside and discovered — and just sewed her up again. There was another lady there she’d palled up with there and she said, ‘She’s dying. She might last three months. The doctors say might last three months.’ And so if, you know, a little later I went back to camp and of course any opportunity I was home. And I got some leave to go home and what’s she doing? She’s cleaning the place. The shop, the house, from top to bottom while she still had the strength. Before she died. I was there when she died. Twenty one minutes past ten on the 29th of April 1944 and — 1945 sorry. The end of the war. Anyway, so of course I’m I get back to camp eventually and the transfer or the posting comes to 617. And when I got to 617 Squadron all of a sudden I thought that I might survive the war. This was January 1945 and we’d lived a pretty heavy life from the drinking and etcetera and, you know, because I suppose we were just having as good a time as we could possibly have whilst we were here. But it was accepted in a way and you didn’t, you weren’t lying in bed thinking, ‘Oh. Am I going to die?’ Nothing like that. Maybe you’d had so much to drink you’d been to sleep anyway. But I, the, it was the atmosphere at 617 was it was a special place and they were all special people. But I’m not that special. I felt that I wasn’t that special. And although it was a fantastic squadron and they did some fantastic things. Things that, you’ve got to admire everything about them but I went out for a walk, came out of the Petwood, turned right and a little way on the right hand side is a farm. And there was a long straight line right up to the little cottage where the farmer lived. And I went down there looking for eggs and he was milking. And he was, he’d got — his kids and his wife were milking. And he was carrying, with a yolk, I don’t know how many but maybe five gallon, six gallon buckets. I don’t know. Four gallon. They were big buckets of water from a pond and he was carrying them in to where the cows were to water the cows. So I said, ‘Oh I’d like to have a go at that.’ And I became very friendly with the family and all the drinking went out of the window. I wasn’t drinking. And he couldn’t read or write but he was a lovely, lovely man and his wife. And while they were there they were up to all the things the farmers were doing. I haven’t, you know this to me was more interesting than the than the operations. They killed a pig. Illegally of course and they knew exactly what to do. And I could go through the whole performance but its — and the whole thing goes. When I go home, I’ve got a car by now, when I go home I’ve got a sack of spuds you know. A chicken. A dozen eggs. And a lump, a lump of bacon because it wasn’t for pork. It was for bacon in the boot. Which today of course if you were stopped by the police you would wonder what the heck but it never occurred to me that that might happen. Anyway, they’d let you off because you’ve got wings and the DFC on you. Anyway, so 617 Squadron. I didn’t spend as much time in the mess and I never made a close buddy because I was involved more with the farm and I also wasn’t drinking much. I’d have an odd beer but I certainly I wasn’t getting pissed or anything like that at all. Well. Some of the operations. The first one I did was to Bielefeld Viaduct. I can remember that as a first. I can remember the last which was to Berchtesgaden. I’ll talk, there’s a bit more about Berchtesgaden in a minute. I think there’s one or two. I’m not sure which it is. One was a viaduct and the other was a bridge and it was the bridge and I can’t remember which one it is. Arnsburg comes in my mind. But I do know it and it’s in my book. But because we know. And I had a Tallboy which was a twelve thousand pounder and — Left. Left. Right. But I must tell you. I was talking about a bomb sight a lot earlier on. Now the bomb site now was an automatic bomb site. Not semi automatic. And the, the thing that happens is this. About ten minutes, a quarter of an hour before we get to the target you take a three drift wind and it’s quite a simple thing to do. You can either do it — the gunners can do it for you or you’ve got to get the land going down straight and it gives you the direction of the wind. And you can calculate the direction and strength of wind. Or you can do it with a hand bearing compass. Anyway, the navigator does that and that’s passed to the bomb aimer who enters it into the bomb sight. Now the bomb sight is a big box of tricks to the left of the actual thing of the sight. So he feeds that in. The air speed is automatically fed in. And the height is automatically fed in. Then there are corrections for air speed and corrections for height which the navigator works out and passes and they go in. And all this time you’re flying straight and level and you have, apart from you’ve taken your sixty degrees either side to get your wind and then you’ve got near enough a ten minute straight and level flight. You’ve got the, it’s all daylight because you’re doing, you’re dropping a bomb on a particular object. And the bombsite consists of a piece of glass about an inch and a half wide and I would think say five, six inches long. Now I’m only talking from memory but this is to give you the idea. Now, as you came, as you were approaching the target and the target would start to come on to the glass and then there’s a big cross with — it’s shorter on the [pause] and it’s longer on the direction into the cross. And the bomb aimer gets it on to the end of the leg of the cross. ‘Left. Left. Right. Steady, steady. Ok. Ok.’ And then he says, ‘Bomb site on.’ And when the, that means he’s switched on the bomb site and it should, the perfect thing is that the cross is there on the target and it stays there and as you travel forward the glass gradually depresses to keep, and it should stay there. And the bomb site releases the bomb. Not the bomb aimer. And this was a really accurate but for all that the idea of the bomb was to get as close to the target as you could and you made sure. The bombs were so big. I mean there was the Grand Slam or special store that was ten tonnes. Which was a massive, it was quite a bit bigger but for all that the twelve thousand pounder would make a big enough hole for most things nearby to fall into the hole. Or [unclear] into the hole. Well this particular one and I never saw this. Only from the pictures afterwards. ‘Left. Left. Right. Steady. Bomb sight on. Bomb gone.’ And then the bomb aimer, ‘We’ve hit the bloody thing.’ And he’d hit right in the centre sideways of the bridge and just maybe a twenty foot overshoot. I mean incredible fortunate bomb. And there were three pictures and these were posted up in the very special little officer’s mess in Petwood Hotel. And the first one was a hole in. The second one was water splashing up and the third one was the whole bloody lot up in the air. That was, you know, that was something. On another occasion and now this has been recorded officially as a twelve thousand pounder bomb but it wasn’t. I carried. I wasn’t the first one by any means but I kept the first ten tonner, the first Grand Slam. The first specialist bomb that I carried. I can’t remember where we were going. But on the way out when we started to climb our, my oxygen was out of step. Wasn’t working and the squadron commander at the time was Jonny Farquhar. I shouldn’t say this but he wasn’t the most popular. Leave it at that. And he [pause] when I shouldn’t have told him but he said, he was getting on at me because I wasn’t getting up to height and I told him that we were having problems with the oxygen. And he said, ‘Go back.’ And we discussed it amongst the crew. Shall we pretend we can’t hear him or shall we go on? But we went back. So I’ve got, I’ve got, although as I just said it says in the, in the records that it was a Tallboy but it wasn’t. It was the very first one that I took up. And I blooming well knew that. Anyway, we’d then got to land and I landed ok but I came in and I thought you know I’d better just give it a little bit more speed and I was aiming to touch down right at the very beginning of the runway. And I might have touched down a third of the way down. The bloody kite floated down and seemed to float forever. Anyway, I was frightened to overshoot in case it wouldn’t overshoot with a full flap wheels and the bomb. So it stuck on the ground and we were going fast because, I mean there’s a hell of a lot of weight. And if you put the brakes on like that then you’ll burn them out in no time so you snatch the brakes and it keeps snatching the brakes until you get right to the end and that gave it a little inclination to turn to port. To turn left and of course the bloody thing was going to whizz around and it was going to wipe the undercarriage as far as I can and everything off. And I put absolutely full bore, full power on the port outer right through the gate as I turned off and as it came around. I mean how the undercarriage stood it I don’t know. But all of a sudden I shut it. I’m doing four miles an hour on the taxi trip. And that was, that to me I reckon was one of the danger spots. Now, the war. We did the Berchtesgaden. Get all the way there. The bombing leader was my bomb aimer and we got hung up. And so we carried the Tallboy all the way back home. But we used to land with Tallboys all the time. This is why I can tell you that it was a thirty five. You know, it was a Grand Slam. And I can tell you because I mean Tallboy we were bringing them back. If you had a Tallboy and somebody hit the target you would bring them back home because they were so scarce and there were so few of them. And I mean landing with a Tallboy was absolutely no problem at all because nowhere near the weight. Anyway, the war’s over. We left the Petwood. We went to Waddington. Lovely mushrooms all over the airfield. We used to pick them in the morning and take them in. Then we are sent to Italy to pick up some army types. And the first time we went was to Parmigliano. There was a great, a great party when we got there and we discovered that you could buy — oh what was it? Not cherry brandy. A fancy, a fancy liqueur that we had’t seen. Never. None of us had ever tasted. It wasn’t Cherry Heering. It was something like. What now you buy. It’s a yellow creamy lot. Anyway, I can’t remember what it’s called at the moment. Tia Maria. And it came out. I can’t remember. But say it was a pound. It was cheap. A pound a bottle or something like that. So of course we all bought a load of this stuff. Put it in the kite to sell to the pubs when we get home in Lincoln. Anyway, so we eventually next morning we’re not really feeling very well. We’re gathering all the guys up and they — I think, I can’t remember how many. The place is stuffed with brown types and soldiers and we take off and come home no problem. But we’re a little bit worried about the contraband and so we told the authorities. We called up and told them we had some problem with the engine and so they — I can’t remember where it was but I can’t remember the name. It was another place where they’d got an elongated runway. Very wide and there were two of them. Was Ludford Magna one? And was one Woodford or somewhere?
CB: Woodbridge.
KT: Where?
CB: Woodbridge.
KT: Woodbridge. Yeah.
CB: Suffolk.
KT: Yeah. That’s right. Woodbridge. Well we landed at Woodbridge. And I couldn’t remember where it was. And so we got a corporal comes out. ‘No. No. Nothing to declare.’ So that was that. So the kite’s at Woodbridge. Somebody took a look at the engine. That was alright. We stayed the night so the next day we flew back to base and we didn’t have to go through customs. So we got the stuff home. I’m near the end but I just, there are just one or two more things to tell you. One of them was we did another trip. This time we went to Bari which is the other side. And when we took off for the guys coming back home we were given a weather forecast that there was cloud. And you break through the cloud about four to five thousand feet and the cloud base was about a thousand feet or something. So we took off and climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed and I got up to ten thousand feet and we weren’t out of the cloud. And I thought well I can’t go any higher because I’ve got all these guys in the back. So, and then we started to get violent turbulence. So I said to the nav, we want to get, ‘Let me know when we’ve crossed.’ When I say violent turbulence you can’t believe it. You suddenly find your climbing at about five thousand feet, ten thousand feet a minute. Something. I can’t remember. So you stick the engine, you stick the kite down and you start losing height like mad. And then all of a sudden you get a bloody great bang and you’re descending at the same sort of speed and I said to the nav, ‘Let me know as soon as we’re clear of Italy and I aint going to get underneath it.’ And I may or not have told him we were going underneath but I had the experience of this. We were clear and I came down and down and all of a sudden I came out of the bottom and about a hundred, two hundred yards from the starboard side was a bloody great whirl of water being sucked up out of the sea into it. But we were underneath. You could see several of these all around and it was so easy from there on to fly. And we would fly back to the Spanish coast as we did the first time and then due north to England. Well, when we got back a bloke — they’d lost I think one kite. They lost a bloke. A mid-upper turret had come out of a kite along with the guy sitting in it. And another kite landed with a broken back. And they got it back and landed it. And that was the end of those. Now, the one thing I must tell you. Before I took off for this particular trip I took off and was, we was on course and the nav comes up. He says, ‘The Gee box isn’t working.’ So I said, ‘Well, it doesn’t matter does it?’ You know. He said, ‘There’s a Kings Regulations just come out. You’ve got to replace it.’ You know, ‘The regulations says you’re not to fly with it.’ If you get that you’ve got to replace it. It’s an after the war job. So I came in and as I was approaching I could feel the kite did that. Do you notice? Nothing. You know. Landed. Taxied in. No problem. Shut down. They’d changed it so taxied out. Took off. As I’m going down the runway and I’ve got to something like eighty miles an hour. Eighty five. So, and you need at least ninety five to take off. All of a sudden the runway went flying that way and I’m flying across it. You know. Careering across the grass. I put on full rudder. Bloody difficult because you’ve got this engine feathered, got the things. Put in boards straight through the gate. Took a little out of the port outer to ease it on the rudder and I’ve got my hand here on the rim, trying to, on the rudder trim. Trying to turn the trim. And the wing, we left the airfield and we’re over a field and the starboard wing touched the ground. So the net result the next thing and I’m not strapped in. The war’s over and all that and I haven’t strapped myself in and it touched the ground. I knocked the box off which disconnects, you know turns off all eight ignition switches. And there’s a handle. Have you been in a Lanc? Well you know where the handle is. You pull yourself up to get into your seat when you fly. As the pilot. Well that handle. I put, I put my hand on that and I put my head on my hand because I could see myself being smashed in to the [pause] and then all of a sudden when the bang came the thing did a cartwheel. It took the nose off. And we and there’s mud flying everywhere. My head goes through and the artificial horizon went like that. Never touch it. Next moment I’m in the top of the canopy. And the crew had got all the escape hatches off so they must have been working bloody quick. They were very quick. And I’d always said to my crew you know if ever I say, ‘Emergency. Emergency. Jump. Jump. If you don’t get out I won’t be there. I’ll be the first off. Out of this kite.’ I jumped up out of my seat, put my head in someone’s bum. Some bugger’s got in front of me. And I got up and got, got through. Sat on top. The engines are cracking as they’re cooling down. A hundred yards behind there’s the rear gunner running towards us. And the other guys are running away in case it explodes. And it looked to me to be a long way down to the ground but as you know of course it isn’t that far. But I slid down. The gunner had turned his turret to try and help with the directions. You know, to put some rudder on. And when the tail came down he burst through the doors and was dumped in a ploughed field. Sliding along in the mud. And he’s covered from head to foot in mud. Not a scratch. You know, it was one of those things. Anyway, that was I flew a few times after that but not much more. But I must do the last bit and the last bit I was posted. I thought about staying in the air force. I mean we all wanted to stay in but obviously there wasn’t a future there. You could stay you could sign on for three years and I reckoned at the end of three years it was going to be a bloody sight harder to make a living. But at the moment there were going to be millions of people coming out of the services and there was going to be a bit of money around. I’d better get hold of some of that. That’s how, and I wanted out. So they, as soon as they knew I was posted to a station. I cannot remember where it is but I bet I could find it. And I think I found it and it’s in here. But when — they don’t know what to do with you. And A) I don’t know who he was but somebody, a squadron leader bloke. I was an acting flight lieutenant then and he comes in and he takes me into an office and it’s absolutely full of paper all over the place. And it was the signals office. He said, ‘I wonder. We want you. Your job is to file all this lot. Sort this lot out. Get it in to order and file it.’ Ok. So off he goes and I sit down. It was cold. I looked at it and I thought well this is just bloody stupid. It’s a completely impossible thing to do. I mean, what can you do with it. Where are you going to put it? And it was cold so I put the first bit in the file and burned it. And two weeks later I burned the lot. All Gone. The office was tidy. Clean. Looked lovely. And I’m thinking boy this is going to be some bloody background to this. Something’s going to happen. I wonder. It’s going to be interesting. So the bloke comes in. ‘Oh I see you’ve sorted it. Good show old boy.’ End of story. I mean I just burned the bloody signals. All of them. Anyway, that is me for now.
CB: That’s really good. Thanks very much Ken.
KT: That’s good.
CB: Let’s just recap if we may.
KT: Yeah.
CB: You’ve got one DFC. What was the timing and –
KT: Ok.
CB: Occasion of the second DFC.
KT: Well, now I thought the bar to the DFC came because possibly my record in 617. And that has been my whole thought over all my life until I started to write the book. And then I got in touch with the Air Ministry and records and all this, that and the other and I discovered it was recommended by 65 Squadron. And it was nothing to do with 617. And I’m just going to add something else. I mean we’re all very old men now. And Aces High, who I think some of you may have heard of and know about they had a signing session at [pause] where’s it?
CB: Wendover.
KT: Wendover.
CB: Yeah.
KT: And there was a bloke there who was a pilot in 625 er 617 and he did thirty operations including the Tirpitz. But he didn’t do the Dams raid.
CB: That was Iverson.
KT: Who?
CB: Tony Iverson.
KT: And he doesn’t have a gong.
CB: That’s right.
KT: This is a bloke without a gong. All he got. He hadn’t got a DFC or anything.
CB: No.
KT: And this, that is true is it?
CB: Yeah –
KT: Well now I felt like writing in because it was this was Farquhar. Jonny Farquhar. He was not. All he wanted was stuff for himself or his favourites. But that man. Tony.
CB: Iverson.
KT: Iverson.
CB: He died last year.
KT: Yeah. Now I met him two or three years ago at Aces High.
CB: Yeah.
KT: I didn’t know he’s dead. I’m sorry to hear that. He was on the squadron when I was on the squadron.
CB: He was originally a fighter man.
KT: Yeah. But I thought that that was awful because he had done, in my — as I look at it, more than I did and he I thought that was absolutely terrible because he deserved it. He deserved it more than I did and I got two. Anyway, there we are.
CB: Fantastic. Thank you very much. We’re going to take a break now ‘cause you deserve a cup of tea.
KT: Oh yeah. I’d love a cup of tea. How long have we been doing that?
CB: I can’t see now.
KT: Oh I’ll put the light on. I’ll go and see if I can find some- i’ve got to be careful when I first get up.
CB: Don’t worry.
KT: I’m alright now.
CB: Ok.
KT: I’ll give you some light.
CB: We’re now going to have a break and we’ve done two hours and twelve minutes.
[recording paused]
CB: We’ve stopped the interview because ken has been going for two hours and it’s got to the end of the war although some things we haven’t completed. What we aim to do is reconvene another time and pick up on a number of points that are really important in this.
[recording paused]
CB: This interview is about two hours twenty minutes continuous. The plan is to continue the conversation at a later stage. Probably at Wendover, in the spring, when Ken’s book is due to be launched.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Kenneth Trent
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-12
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ATrentKL160112
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
02:13:11 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Shropshire
England--Cheshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
Canada
Québec
Queensland
Saskatchewan
Québec--Mont-Joli
Alberta--Innisfail
Saskatchewan--Swift Current
Germany
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Germany--Bielefeld
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Ken grew up in London and joined the Royal Air Force on his eighteenth birthday as a pilot. After exams and interview at RAF Uxbridge, he went to Number 9 Receiving Wing in Torquay and an Initial Training Wing in Stratford-upon-Avon. He then trained in Canada at an Elementary Flying Training School in Swift Current. This was followed by Innisfail and North Battleford where Ken flew Oxfords. After becoming a pilot, he went to a bombing and gunnery school at Mont-Joli and flew Battles before returning to the United Kingdom.
Ken went to RAF Shawbury, flying Oxfords. He was posted to RAF Lindholme on Wellingtons where he crewed up. He was posted for a very short time on Halifaxes, followed by a Conversion Unit onto Lancasters. He then went to RAF Elsham Wolds and 576 Squadron. From flight sergeant, he quickly became pilot officer.
Ken shares some good advice he received from a fellow pilot and describes some of his operations. Ken was awarded two Distinguished Flying Crosses. His first operation was to the Bielefeld viaduct and the last was to Berchtesgaden.
Ken flew three different Lancasters for 617 Squadron and they were the only heavy bomber crew to carry out over 100 operations. During his time at RAF Woodhall Spa, he fostered a good relationship with a local farmer.
When the war ended, he went to RAF Waddington and flew back army personnel from Italy.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
576 Squadron
617 Squadron
625 Squadron
Absent Without Leave
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
Battle
bombing
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
faith
FIDO
Grand Slam
Halifax
Lancaster
military discipline
Operation Dodge (1945)
Oxford
pilot
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lindholme
RAF Woodbridge
RAF Woodhall Spa
recruitment
sanitation
take-off crash
Tallboy
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/358/9540/LHayleyCA1463437v1.1.pdf
1d7dfc7af85642fd8b30ffce42664f2b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hayley, Jack
Jack Hayley
C A Hayley
Cecil A Hayley
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Collection consists of a log book, an interview and other items concerning Flight Lieutenant Cecil 'Jack' Alison Hayley DFC. Items include photographs of aircraft and people, a letter concerning his Distinguished Flying Cross and well as newspaper cuttings concerning operations, his wedding and the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross. After training he completed tours on 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, then 170 Squadron at RAF Hemswell before going on to a bomber defence training flight flying Hurricanes and Spitfires.
This collection was donated by Jack Hayley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hayley, CA
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-25
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jack Hayley’s Royal Canadian Air Force pilots flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Pilots flying log book for Jack Hayley, covering the period from 9 June 1942 to 30 June 1950. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and post war flying. He was stationed at, RAF Newquay, RAF Clyffe Pypard, RAF Heaton Park, RCAF Moncton, RCAF Dewinton, RCAF Estevan, RAF Harrogate, RAF Bournmouth, RAF Little Rissington, RAF Windrush, RAF Docking, RAF Madley, RAF Peplow, RAF Sandtoft, RAF Hemswell, RAF Kelstern, RAF Dunholme Lodge, RAF Peterborough, RAF Scampton, RAF Defford and RAF Celle. Aircraft flown were, Magister, Tiger Moth, Stearman, Anson II, Oxford, Dominie, Wellington, Halifax, Lancaster, Master, Spitfire, Hurricane, Lincoln, York, Hoverfly, Prentice, Tudor, Meteor, Devon, Mosquito, Harvard, Vampire, Wayfarer, Firefly, Canberra, Brigand, Valetta, Auster, Hastings, Athena and Shackleton. He flew a total of 31 operations, 8 daylight and 4 night operations with 625 Squadron and two daylight and 17 night with 170 Squadron. Targets in Germany and France were, Le Havre, Frankfurt, Rheine-Siezbergen, Eikenhorst, Calais, Neuss, Fort Frederick, Duisberg, Stuttgart, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Bochum, Duren, Wanne-Eickel, Frieberg, Karlsruhe, Leuna, Essen, Ludwigshaven, Ulm, Osterfeld, Nurnberg, Munich, Merseburg-Leuna and Zeitz. He flew as a second pilot on operations with Flight Lieutenant Banks and Flying Officer Eckel.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LHayleyCA1463437v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
1944-09-05
1944-09-06
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-17
1944-09-20
1944-09-23
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-10-11
1944-10-14
1944-10-15
1944-10-19
1944-10-20
1944-10-27
1944-10-30
1944-10-31
1944-11-01
1944-11-02
1944-11-03
1944-11-04
1944-11-05
1944-11-16
1944-11-18
1944-11-19
1944-11-27
1944-11-28
1944-12-04
1944-12-06
1944-12-07
1944-12-12
1944-12-15
1944-12-17
1944-12-31
1945-01-02
1945-01-05
1945-01-07
1945-01-08
1945-01-14
1945-01-15
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
France
Great Britain
Germany
Alberta--De Winton
England--Gloucestershire
England--Hampshire
England--Herefordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Worcestershire
England--Yorkshire
France--Calais
France--le Havre
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Celle
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düren (Cologne)
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Freiburg im Breisgau
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Leuna
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Osterfeld
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Ulm
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Zeitz
New Brunswick--Moncton
Germany--Duisburg
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Cornwall (County)
Saskatchewan--Estevan
Germany--Düsseldorf
New Brunswick
Saskatchewan
Alberta
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
1667 HCU
170 Squadron
625 Squadron
83 OTU
83 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Dominie
Flying Training School
Halifax
Halifax Mk 5
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hurricane
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Lincoln
Magister
Meteor
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Clyffe Pypard
RAF Defford
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Madley
RAF Peplow
RAF Peterborough
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Scampton
RAF Windrush
RCAF Estevan
Shackleton
Spitfire
Stearman
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/171/9859/LAtkinsAH418514v1.2.pdf
2442259ebfd050afd9ef5293f8203e96
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Atkins, Arthur
A H Atkins
Description
An account of the resource
24 items. An oral history interview with Arthur Atkins DFC (d. 2022, Royal Australian Air Force), his logbook and 23 photographs. Arthur Atkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia and joined the RAAF. After training he flew 32 operations as a pilot with 625 Squadron from RAF Kelstern.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Atkins and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-01-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Atkins, A
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending additional content
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Arthur Atkins’ flying log book for pilots
Description
An account of the resource
Pilots flying log book for Arthur Atkins, covering the period from 12 November 1942 to 12 July 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAAF Benalla, RAAF Somers, RAAF Malalla, RAAF Ascot Vale, RAAF Point Cook, RAAF Bradfield Park, RAF Brighton, RAF Andover, RAF Greenham Common, RAF Long Newnton, RAF Lichfield, RAF Church Broughton, RAF Boston Park, RAF Wescott, RAF Blyton, RAF Hemswell, RAF Kelstern, RAF Sandtoft and RAF Gamston. Aircraft flown were, DH 82 Tiger Moth, Wackett, Anson, Oxford, Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He completed a total of 31 operations with 625 squadron, 15 night and 16 daylight. Targets were, Orleans, Foret de Croc, Caen, Saumerville, Wizerne, Kiel, Russelsheim, Tours, Le Havre, Rheine-Salzbergen, Saarbrucken, Fort Frederik Hendrik, Essen, Ardouval, Stuttgart, Le Landes, Pauillac, Fotenay le Marmion, Stettin, Ghent-Terneuzen Canal, Raimbert, Frankfurt, Calais, Emmerick, Duisberg and Koln. His pilot for his first 'second dickie' operation was Flying Officer Slade.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LAtkinsAH418514v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Berkshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Derbyshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Hampshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Staffordshire
Belgium--Ghent
France--Calais
France--Calvados
France--le Havre
France--Les Landes (Region)
France--Orléans
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Saumur
France--Forêt du Croc
France--Tours
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Salzbergen
Germany--Stuttgart
Netherlands--Breskens
Netherlands--Terneuzen
New South Wales
South Australia
Victoria--Benalla
Victoria--Point Cook
Poland--Szczecin
Victoria
England--Sussex
Poland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Pauillac (Gironde)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1943-11-13
1944-07-04
1944-07-05
1944-07-06
1944-07-07
1944-07-12
1944-07-13
1944-07-18
1944-07-20
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-27
1944-08-02
1944-08-04
1944-08-05
1944-08-06
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-17
1944-08-18
1944-08-19
1944-08-25
1944-08-26
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-08-31
1944-09-05
1944-09-06
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-27
1944-10-05
1944-10-06
1944-10-07
1944-10-11
1944-10-14
1944-10-15
1944-10-23
1944-10-24
1944-10-31
1944-11-01
1662 HCU
1667 HCU
27 OTU
625 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Flying Training School
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Andover
RAF Blyton
RAF Church Broughton
RAF Gamston
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lichfield
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Westcott
tactical support for Normandy troops
Tiger Moth
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/683/10087/ABaileyCE180424.1.mp3
835fb4b97ccbfe82c8edefd50e0e08d9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bailey, Cyril Edwin
C E Bailey
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Cyril Bailey DFM (b. 1925, 1893433 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 625 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bailey, CE Collection
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell. The interviewee is Cyril Bailey. The interview is taking place at Mr Bailey’s home in Surbiton, Surrey on the 24th of April 2018. So, Cyril perhaps you could start us off by just saying a bit about where and when you were born and your early life growing up.
CB: Yeah. Well, as far as I know I was born in Minster-in-Thanet in Kent but I can’t remember that place. It’s only when I got to the schooldays that I remember Preston where we had the, a blackberry farm where my father was working, working on. We then moved to Birchington where my father had took over management. Management and work of a farm there. That was quite a good time. I was there until I left school. Basic education of course. Just the three Rs and that’s it.
DM: So, you were born in 1925, I think.
CB: Yeah.
DM: How old were you when you left school?
CB: Fourteen. I was fourteen years old then.
DM: So, just at the beginning of the war.
CB: Yes. Yes. It was, yeah. It would be there. Yeah. Would be round the same year. So, I had to wait for a few years before I could join up.
DM: What did you do when you left school?
CB: Well, when I left school the first thing I did was to go into a private Preparatory School as a [pause] What’s the title of it now? Basically, it’s any job that was around the kitchens et cetera. The cleaning, serving up school meals and all sorts of things. That went on to, that was in, that was in Westgate about three miles away from Birchington. But then the war came on and they evacuated up to North Wales. Of course, that left me without a job. So, in the meantime, I started looking around and then I had a telegram one day. Would I like to rejoin them up in Wales? Well, I had no job so I said, ‘Yes, please.’ So that was the Myra and Dorian Williams. They run that school. Dorian Williams was later a [unclear] and horse shows. You’ve probably heard of him, and his wife was the honourable Myra Williams. Anyway, she sorted all the travel warrants et cetera for me to go up there, and so I travelled up. Well, I was fourteen, wasn’t I? She picked me up at Oswestry, and of course it was midwinter then, and I always remember that one because there was all snow and ice and when she came to the premises where the school was being run, we slipped on the ice and went into a ditch. Of course, it was in the mountains. Country roads. Nothing, anywhere at all. No telephones or lighting or whatever. So, she said, ‘Well, I’ve got to go back. Walk back to see if I can get somebody at one of the garages way back.’ I said, ‘Shall I come with you?’ You know. I was only fourteen. She said, ‘Oh no,’ she said, ‘If you’d like to sit in the car and just wait for me. Just look after the car.’ Well, anyway, after about a half an hour or so she turned up with a bloke in a breakdown lorry, and they pulled her out of the ditch. No damage done. It was only just skidding, and we carried on our way. That was to a place called Llangedwyn in, in North Wales. It was a massive great big, I did have a picture of that somewhere, a great big country mansion sort of a place, and I quite enjoyed my time there because I was in charge of looking after all the boilers. The two massive, great big six foot boilers there. One was for the hot water and the other one was for the heating. I looked after those and did all the odd jobs around the place chopping up wood for the firewood, getting the coal in et cetera. Anyway, that went on for about a couple of years and I thought, well I don’t know it’s time I went home and so I packed it in. So, I just said, gave my notice in and got on my bike and cycled home.
DM: Cycled.
CB: Cycled. Three hundred miles, I think. Nearly.
DM: That took a while.
CB: It did. Yeah. That took me about two and a half days. The first day I got as far as Coventry, and that, I didn’t realise at the time but that was after they’d had that big bombing raid. But the part of the country where I come in that was still standing. Anyway, I saw somebody in the street there. That was about six or seven o’clock in the evening, I said, ‘Do you know anywhere I could put up for the night?’ I’d made no arrangements at all, you see. He said, ‘Oh yes. I’ll contact my sister. She’ll take you in.’ And their names were Mr and Mrs Devey of 62 Vernon Street. Coventry. I always remember that. Anyway, I had my week‘s rations on my case which was strapped on the back of the bike. It was only an ordinary Roadster bike. You know normal, a Hercules Roadster, and I had nearly all that week’s rations at breakfast the following morning funnily enough which she did. Anyway, so it was about nine o’clock again when I started off on the bike and heading for London. So that took me, I wanted to get through London so I just carried on cycling and finished up, I think it was about three or four o’clock in the morning the following day so had been cycling since nine o’clock right through, through the night in to, finished up at Chatham or somewhere. I forget the name of the station now but they’d got the fire going in the station waiting room there so I thought well that’s lovely, I just parked myself in front of it and dozed off. It had been quite a long day. And I was rudely awakened by all the early morning workers and so that means out. So, I had to get on my bike again. That was about five or six o’clock in the morning, I’m sure. And, so I carried on till I got then to my home which is in in Birchington, and of course I was black as the ace of spades all over with dirt, travelling. No washing or anything like that and my mum said, she said, ‘Oh, you’d better get in the bath and clean yourself up.’ So I went in there and promptly went to sleep in it because my mum got a bit worried. She was banging on the door. Anyway, I come to again and that’s all. I finished on that one. Anyway, then of course, that meant I’d got to find a job down there so that was, and eventually I ended up as a mechanic in a local garage. Jenner’s Garage. And that was, went on until I got papers to go to join up. And of course, during the time I was working at the garage I joined up the ATC as well, at Margate. So, this is where my bike come in handy because cycling to and fro Margate about three and a half miles or so.
DM: What did you pick the ATC?
CB: Well, I don’t know. It was quite silly actually, because when I was working up in North Wales, I went to the nearest place was Oswestry which was about ten miles away. So, I used to cycle there once a week to just go to the pictures, and have a look around the shops, and in a shop, I saw, was looking at some books there. It’s got, “Teach Yourself” — and part of the rest of it was obliterated, you know with other stock in the way. So, I went in the shop. ‘I’d like that book you’ve got in the window.’ He said, ‘Are you sure you want that one?’ I said, ‘Yeah. Yeah. “Teach Yourself.”’ He said ‘Okay.’ It was, “Teach Yourself to Fly,” it was [laughs]
DM: So that was fate.
CB: That sort of triggered the interest in flying, I suppose. But anyway —
DM: So, you used to go to the ATC at Margate —
CB: Oh yes. Yes. I got in to the ATC there and I did quite well on that one. Of course, the time came to join up so I said, ‘Well, I’d like to go as a mechanic in the Air Force.’ And they said, ‘Right. If you, we don’t want any more mechanics at the moment.’ He said, ‘There’s a flight engineer’s job going now.’ And so, ‘Well what’s that? Just the next stage of mechanic?’ ‘More or less.’ I said, ‘Well, does it entail a little bit of flying after doing repairs?’ ‘Something like that.’ That was it. That was my interview. So, I joined up and from then on, we went, well when I finally joined up, I think it was St John‘s Wood where we first got all our clothing and kit et cetera. Then the next move was going up to near Newcastle. I forget. Oh, from then we moved in to St Athans.
DM: So that was after Whitley Bay.
CB: That was after Whitley Bay and, but, oh just going back a bit the, Whitley Bay, the best thing I remember about that all the square bashing we did. It was mid-winter on the prom and that was all snow, ice and everything else and you used to get frozen like mad there.
DM: What year are we in now?
CB: Oh, that would be still in ‘43.
DM: Right.
CB: And once, when we’d been square bashing and things like that I got back to the billets which was private houses taken over by the Air Force, and we had a kitchen range in there. I thought I’d put my shoes in there to dry them out a bit and I forgot about them until I suddenly got thinking about getting them out and there was one of them had scorch marks all over the sole of it as if they’d been worn out. Worn down. So fortunately, when I went to get them replaced I gave that excuse and, that I’d rubbed it down with a bit of emery or something and I got a fresh pair of shoes. Anyway, from there we went on to St Athans. Oh yes. There was another chap which, when did I [unclear] yeah. Jack. Jack Forrest. We, we, when we first joined up, first joined up we met up and we went through all of this St John’s Wood, Whitley Bay and St Athans together. So, we got quite friendly on there and that was the engineering course. Flight engineering course which was I believe about two or three years condensed down to about six months. We both got through that okay, and then we got posted out. Well, Jack didn’t get posted to the same place as me and so I didn’t see more of him. And then we went to, after we finished with St Athans went in to Lindholme Conversion Unit. That’s in Yorkshire. Followed on to Hemswell. The number 1 Lanc Finishing School. And this during the time was on the, other than Lindholme or Hemswell that Dave, I met up with Dave, and we started to do some flying in the old Halifaxes. That would have been Lindholme and he gave me about, because they had a dual control there, he gave me about twenty minutes tuition on how to steer a plane straight and level. Apparently, that was what we were supposed to be able to do if anything happened so we could bring it back. And then, from then after Lanc Finishing School we moved to Kelstern, 625 Squadron and there we had quite a few [pause] went through about twenty eight ops, operations during that time.
DM: When did you first crew up with all the rest of the crew? When did you first all get together as a team?
[pause]
CB: Can we stop there?
[recording paused]
DM: So when, when did you first meet the pilot and become part of his team?
CB: Oh, oh that was in June of ’44, when we went to, the engineers et cetera had to go into a hangar or something, some sort.
DM: A big building.
CB: Yeah. A big building. And everybody was milling around, sort of saying and introducing each other and then David, he come over to me and he said, ‘Did you fancy coming with me and my crew?’ So, I said, ‘Yes, I think that would be alright.’ And that’s how we carried on.
DM: They were all Australian.
CB: And they were an all-Australian crew. Yeah.
DM: How did you feel about that?
CB: And, well I thought it was quite good. I thought it was quite good there and, do you want me to read that? And so of course Dave, David was very pleased to welcome the flight engineer and introduced me to the rest of the crew. And one of the first things they said, I think it was one of the gunners, he said, ‘Oh,’ he said ‘An English rose amongst blue orchids,’ they joked. Of course, I replied, ‘Don’t you mean colonial thorns?’ And then our bonds solidified. Then we went on from there.
DM: Do you remember much about your first op?
CB: No. But whilst we were still in training, before we actually joined up in to 625 —
DM: Right.
CB: Whilst we were —
DM: Where we were training as a crew.
CB: We trained as a crew and they said, oh again very short of aircraft there so we used the training aircraft. The old Halifax, I think. And we went over to [pause] I forget the name of it even now. A place over in Holland somewhere.
DM: And you were a decoy.
CB: And we were just a decoy. We did have one fighter come, come towards us but Dave started doing the old corkscrew then, and he put his, he could see we were prepared for him and so he buzzed off fortunately because we didn’t even have an upper gun turret on there neither. It didn’t. Anyway, we managed to get back all right and of course things after that as I said, we got into 625 Squadron and my first op was to Beukenhorst Wassenaar. That’s a rocket storage place there. But as far as I remember that was reasonably quiet. Just a few bits of flak, but that was about all. And that was in the September of ’44.
DM: Could you say a bit about what your typical duties were as a flight engineer on a flight? What you had to do.
CB: Yes. Well, general it was to give obviously assistance to Dave, the pilot. The main thing was looking after the petrol tanks making sure that we were using the fuel off correctly and keeping tabs on how much we were using to calculate the quantities depending on the engine revs, boost, all the time. So, every time there was a change of speed or height which entailed changing the revs et cetera, the engine, we had to recalculate and see how much we’d done up ‘til then and make note of it all and so we’d got a continuous count of how much was used over what periods of time. So, you always keep control of that. And of course, Jack of all trades. Anything else that goes wrong we’d have to try to and sort it out. I know once we had, a bomb aimer he wanted to go back to the loo at the backend, so he was, he slowly got past me and got as far as the wireless operator and he collapsed. Of course, they called out for me to sort it out and apparently when he’d gone, he hadn’t taken his emergency bottle of oxygen with him and of course he passed out. So —
DM: So, you had to sort him out.
CB: So, I managed to get a, link him up again to the system and after about ten minutes he sort of came around, but he wasn’t the same for the rest of the trip. Yeah. That was a bit unusual that one.
DM: Did you ever have any bombs hang up that you had to deal with?
CB: We did once, and that was when I was when I had a Canadian crew. But that was —
DM: So, you were sort of filling in or —
CB: Yeah, and that was because for the first twenty operations I was with David.
DM: Right.
CB: Until we went, got as far as Dortmund. That was November 29th 1944, and we, we got hit. Well, by flak which blew out our windscreens, and plus it also injured both Dave and myself. Dave got his hand, right hand had got a, a splinter of flak gone in to that and severed the tendons then. He was squirting out blood all over the show because at the time I was laying on my tummy on the floor pushing out Window. Which was anti, anti, what’s the name stuff.
DM: The bits of metal.
CB: Yeah. Metal.
DM: To confuse the radar.
CB: Yeah. That’s right. To confuse the radar. So, of course —
DM: What were your injuries?
CB: Oh, this is on Lancs. Those were a Merlin.
DM: Yeah. But what, what, but you said you were injured as well.
CB: Oh yes, sorry, my injury, yeah. Yeah. I got a bit of flak in my chest. Fortunately, that was not, not very serious. It didn’t hurt me at all so, and made a mess of my clothes of course, but I was able to look after Dave and I knew I had to be quick the way he was squirting out blood there, because it came right across the cabin and so I held his hand tight. Held his wrist tight with one hand as tight as I could, and it slowed it down quite considerably. And whilst I was there, I was able to get the First Aid out for him. Anyway, and then I managed to get to a padded bandage on, on to his hand, and put a tourniquet on his arm to help, help stop it and that appeared to be alright. Whether he was, of course then you were still continuing on and I see David had a bit of flak in, stuck inside his helmet. I thought, well I won’t touch that. He doesn’t seem to be worried about it. But another one in his shoulder. So, I just pinched that. Made him flinch a bit but he was still, still going on all right.
DM: So, he was still sort of flying the plane to the best of his ability.
CB: He still, he was, yeah. But of course, one handed.
DM: Yes.
CB: Because this one, it was useless. He lost his, lost his hand completely there so everything that he would have normally done, the old, the engine and trimming and and everything else like that. We, we went on quite well on that way. I did ask him if he wanted me to take over at all and he said, ‘Oh no. No. No.’ And yeah, I don’t know when we got back to this country because I still had to do to look after the engines and all the calculations for the fuel. That’s how I made sure we’d got enough to go where we wanted to go. Anyway, we decided to try and make it all the way, and then when he, when he come to our own place at Kelstern, when he called up control and said he had an injured man on board but he didn’t say who and of course between us we got the plane down, but I had to do the trimming under his instructions because I mean his, he could feel what the plane was doing obviously with the left hand okay, but we made a perfect landing that time. So, of course, the blood wagon was waiting for us when we get back to dispersal, and they took him off straight to, straight to the hospital there. He’d, he’d also got another one. A bit of flak in his leg which I didn’t know about. So, he might have lost a bit of blood from that.
DM: Did you have to go to hospital?
CB: Yes. And at anyway, so they, they took him off and of course when, when you got to the debriefing room and of course I hadn’t finished the last, what? About the last twenty minutes half hour of calculations on the fuel, and of course the engineer’s controlling officer there he said, ‘Why didn’t you do that?’ I said, ‘Well, because I was wounded.’ He said, ‘Oh, did you? Where?’ I had to tell him then, and of course he called the medics over and the next thing I know I was hopped off to the infirmary. And that, that was funny because it was mid-winter as I say. Bitterly cold and when we got to the infirmary there, I had to wait outside for about an hour in the, in the cold ambulance because they had to make negotiations to take us in there. Anyway, but that, there was another, another crew member from one of the other planes. He was going there as well because he’d been wounded on his, on his flight, and anyway, we got in there and they did us quite well there. They did an operation on there and dug, dug a hole out because if it had gone in there and travelled right across, and, and they’d sort that one out and after that it was quite nice because we finished in the hospital there and on to sick leave. That was unfortunately the last time I saw my crew.
DM: Did you ever think when you were, after you were hit by the flak did it ever enter your head that you might not have got back or were you too busy?
CB: Well, I was more concerned with just keeping going. It didn’t enter that, only in as much I was quite worried wondering whether Dave could be alright but he was perfectly okay. Well, perfectly all right. He was doing it. That’s it. But I think he, when we come in to land or were coming in to land I did turn the oxygen up to, to the maximum there and I think that did help revive him quite considerably. He thanked me for doing it before we even left our seats.
DM: I assume if the flak had blown away the windscreen it must have been pretty cold as well.
CB: Well, funnily enough no. It was a little bit draughty but I think it’s the way that the contours of the aircraft was made that it just skimmed over the nose and not directly on to the windscreen right there because I thought that should be causing quite a blast through there but it didn’t. It was still comfortable with all the clobber on which we had and that was it.
DM: And you got a medal for that, I think.
CB: Yes, well Dave got the DFC immediately for it and he recommended me for the DFM and that came through at a later date about that one. Yes. So that was the first twenty operations which we had. They were —
DM: Did, did the whole crew split up or did any, did you stay with any of them?
CB: Well, during the, during the, after the, this and this turn at Dortmund there Dave couldn’t go back because he was in hospital and the crew were asked to, if they could stay together. But unfortunately, they, they got split up and I think the mid-upper gunner, yeah. That’s right. Mid-upper gunner. He stayed on the station. I didn’t know that but the others went off to another ‘drome, you know. Somewhere else.
DM: Where did you end up?
CB: Well, what do you mean?
DM: When you came back from your sick leave where did you have to go?
CB: Oh, well I, I went back to Kelstern. Yes. I was quite a while there but this was where I picked up another crew there. I thought they were Canadians but since then I’ve found out that the pilot was an Englishman [laughs] And I don’t know where I got the Canadians from because oh probably because I had to go as a spare the first trip back. And that was not until [pause] oh that was on the, in March. March ’45.
DM: Right.
CB: So, we had quite a, quite a long time.
DM: So that would have been your twenty first op then.
CB: Yes, that would have been my twenty first op then. That was with a Flight Lieutenant Jardine and to, to an aircraft factory. But that was a good long trip. The first one back and it’s nine hours fifty minutes and so that was a bit wearying one. And the second one after that was with this Flight Lieutenant Russell that was with, and his crew I went with until I actually finished my operations. But to have the nine hours fifty minutes on that first one. A night one as well. Then the following day I got the new crew and we went to Kassel. Kassel. That was seven hours forty minutes that night one. So, two long, very long trips as a starters but didn’t, but they didn’t go down too well but still. Then they were, my third one after that one we were back to Dortmund. And when we were going, you know on the way to go to briefing walking together as a crew there and I said to the skipper, I said, ‘I know where we are going.’ He said, ‘How do you know that?’ I said, ‘Well, I don’t really know but I think we’re going to go to Dortmund.’ And of course, we got in there and the screens opened up and Dortmund it was.
DM: Just like a premonition.
CB: Yeah. I just knew it was going to be that. Anyway, we went through there. I had a little, oh we’ve got to go back there again and I didn’t know. Well, we did go, and it was quite a good raid that time. I thought well I got my own back now. But I did notice that when we was again going over there he kept well into the middle of the formations we were all in, you know as a gaggle formation and that’s like three in the front and the rest of you strewn behind. And I thought well that’s, that’s quite good of him to do that and it made me feel a bit more comfortable but —
DM: It must have been quite nerve wracking.
CB: It was a bit, yeah. But as things went down, well it, back to somewhere near a comfortable to, to accept.
DM: Yeah.
CB: But then of course the, after that one I went to Bremen. It was the railway the bridge. That was my worst one that was. We had been [pause] yeah, we had just, just finished the bombing run and the doors were still open and of course we get hit by flak again. But that time it got the, most of it was down in the bomb bay and because it cut all the hydraulic oil pipe and we lost all our hydraulic oil and that was, I thought it was on fire but it was just the fact that it was all spraying out the back. And of course, the port inner, I think it was the port inner, yeah that started smoking as well. So, we got a bit of smoke in to the cabin there which I thought well what’s going to happen now. But anyway, I feathered the port inner and that stopped that one going so it hadn’t actually got to flaming which was fortunate and the, all the hydraulic oil was spraying out the back. That looked like smoke actually. The way it was going. And so of course, that meant that the bomb doors were still, still open. Then the flaps went down at ten degrees and [pause] yeah that went down ten degrees and the air pressure went down because I don’t know why that was. Something to do with in the engine part and so the engines went back in to M gear which was a low gear. So, I was getting a bit of a state and you know and then there was about three of us straggling behind. We were all about a mile apart from each other and I saw this [pause] ME 262. He came up behind the last one and of course he went down on to him as he went up in flames. And as he come up he went up to the next one. He went up in flames. And of course, we started to look to see if there were any parachutes. I didn’t see any parachutes but apparently there was two out of those two planes somewhere but then as he came up and they went down then he came to us but of course the skipper, he went into a corkscrew, you know as fast as he could because the engines had gone down, the bomb doors still open, the flaps down a bit. And he missed [laughs] I remember seeing, seeing tracers, you know going underneath us, that’s where it was in the engineer’s side we’d gone to starboard so that was wide open. We just looked. Looked straight into the face of the pilot as he was peering out of his what’s the names. Tracers et cetera. But fortunately, he missed. By that time the skipper had called up for help and this Mustang, he come over and started chasing him off and because the, with the twin jet there he just burst out in a puff of smoke and had gone.
DM: Yeah.
CB: And of course, the Mustang couldn’t keep up with him although they were pretty good but anyway then he stayed with us for a little while, see that we were still going okay and then he buzzed off on further duties again. Anyway, then we got down, come to get back and the skipper said to, said about lowering the undercarriage. I said, ‘Are you able to?’ Oh, no. No, the skipper called up the control and said we’d, we’d lost all our hydraulic oil so we’d got no, no undercarriage. So, I had to intervene and say, ‘Hold on. We haven’t tried the emergency air yet.’ And because this was, I suppose they must have heard all that on ground control. But anyway, so I said, ‘Well, let’s, let’s try it to see if it’s going to work.’ So he turned on the emergency air and of course it did work. Fortunately, it did go down but ever such a long time well, compared to hydraulic and then compressed air and it finally locked. The undercarriage locked on and so we came in and landed quite safely but that was quite a —
DM: Traumatic trip I would think.
CB: Very traumatic. Yeah.
DM: No one was hurt.
CB: No one was hurt this time, no. No. It was quite, quite good that one. But then of course we had, from then on we had maybe four more. Four more trips and then that was the lot.
DM: I suppose after the, the trip where you were in combat I suppose you’d say with the 262 you didn’t get any time off or anything. You were straight off on the next op a few days later.
CB: Oh, yes. Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
CB: On the 23rd of the March for the Bremen. And the 25th of the 3rd and it was Hanover. The city Blitz. So didn’t waste much time there.
DM: So when, what date was your last op? If you can remember.
CB: My last night, last one was on the 14th of April. 14th of April but that was to Potsdam. It was after the Nazi headquarters apparently. So, no it was quite, quite exciting I suppose if you call it one way.
DM: So, when you came back from that last raid did you go on leave then?
CB: Yeah [pause] No. Not, not straightaway I don’t think. No. Because, no it was the, although there was where we had to sort ourselves out for another job so we [unclear] Yeah. We were sent off to Catterick. Or as I called it a misdirecting centre [laughs] and anyway —
DM: That was training, was it?
CB: Retraining for ground trade because they said, ‘What job? What do you want to do now?’ I said, ‘Well, being as I worked in a garage I’d sooner get a driving job.’ So, I went off to Catterick for that. Oh no. Went off to Weeton from Catterick.
DM: What rank were you by this time?
CB: Sergeant.
DM: Right. You didn’t get any huge promotions or anything.
CB: No. No. I didn’t have that. And we went up to Weeton, to the Driving School there and passed that okay. And Blackpool was the Personnel Dispersal Centre or something like that. Yeah. Well, that’s where we, after that we had, had to go to this other place, well West Kirby, or both of them actually until we could be sorted where we were going to go and they said, ‘Where do you want to go?’ So, and so they gave me a couple of choices. So the choices of, for me I thought well, Manston was near my home down, down near Birchington and you never get your first choice so I thought choose one up in Scotland and then Manston as the second. And this is where the funny part is because when I got the papers saying where I was, where I was going to go it wasn’t either of those. It was out to India [laughs] Yes. So, I had to get on board ship and get posted out to India as a driver. And we went to Bombay as it was known then first off and ever so, receiving place in, in Bombay and we had to go to the stations where we were to go for the rest of our time, or nearly and that was over near Calcutta on the opposite side of India. It took about three days on the, on the lines there and the, I always remember those trains there because they were, the seats were like park bench seats. They were slats and we had to sleep on those or on the floor. Fortunately, I’d picked up a sleeping bag from somebody coming back home when we was at Bombay and so I used that which was handy. Anyways, it was about three days going across there and it was mostly a single track railway with a double section now and again where they had to meet, meeting somebody coming the other way and you changed, changed lines and he went on the other side. And there we were obviously we were waiting there because we managed to get some tea made by using the steam from the engine. Making cups of tea. But it wasn’t very nice but still it was wet and warm. And then I went up to Calcutta. Well, that was only for one day and then then until we put the proper station which was Baigachi. It’s about thirty mile outside Calcutta and I had quite a, quite a good time there because I was, as a driver you were doing all sorts of things. You know, there was sometimes I was on daily routine stuff and then I was on the crash tender and the Army ambulance, you know. Wherever they wanted a driver you went on.
DM: How long were you in India for? Can you remember?
CB: Oh, that was [pause] the 4th of November ’45 but I stayed there. I started there and come back home again [pause] 31st of the 12th. Oh, yeah, 31st of the 12th ’46. ’45.
DM: Right. So, a couple of months.
CB: Yeah. A couple of months. Yeah.
DM: And then when you came back was that when you were you demobbed?
CB: Yes. We come back to Kirkham, 101 PDC and that’s where we got demobbed.
DM: Did anyone ask you if you wanted to stay in the RAF?
CB: Yes. They did. Yeah. And I forget what my answer was there. I don’t think it was very positive at the time.
DM: Right. You wanted to get out. You’d had enough.
CB: Get out. Yeah. I’d had enough it. Yeah. It’s fair enough once you finished flying and everything was all so settled down you think, oh, thank goodness for that. It, you know, it felt quite, I suppose quite shattered you know. But then of course you get to look forward to demob then. But it was during that time that they asked, told us we’d got to hand in as well as all our clothes et cetera and, because we got an issue of suits and hats and things like that and we had to hand in our log book so, and that’s where I, I finished up there. I finished up the Air Force.
DM: So, you went home to Birchington.
CB: So, went back to Birchington and picked up in the garage where I was on there. I stayed. Stopped for about, about two weeks I think it was before I went back to them and asked them, ‘Can I have my job back?’ And the answer was that, ‘Yeah. I suppose we’ve got to, haven’t we?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ [laughs] So that was as far as the garage work was concerned. I stayed on the, there until I got cheeky to one of the governors there. The old, old chap that was there, owned the garage. Mr Jenner. He’d got three sons. They were running it and one of them was, I always remember because he was, he was the driver one. He used to drive you to keep you going and he said something to me which was a bit sarcastic and he finished up by saying so and so and so and so, ‘Old boy.’ I said, ‘Alright, I’ll show you old boy.’ That was it. Cards [laughs]
DM: When did you, did you always stay in touch with the pilot or any of the other crew or was that later on?
CB: Yes. We kept in touch with, with Dave and he was —
DM: Did he fly again do you know? After.
CB: No. He never flew again. No. His hand was so damaged he could never do anything in ops. I believe he did do a couple of flights before he went but it was nothing to do with flying in anger at all. It was just he wanted to keep his hand in a bit but — [pause] So he used to be a pianist. A schoolmaster and a pianist as well but he never played the piano again after that. He couldn’t, you see.
DM: No.
CB: It put his hand right out of action. Yeah. So, anyway —
DM: So, he went. Did he go home to Australia?
CB: Yeah. He went back to Australia and of course he had to [pause] I think it was a hospital ship he had to go back in. Anyway, he picked up where he left off but he still had troubles afterwards, you know because it had really knocked him out a bit. He also, whilst he was invalided in this country before he went back he, he’d got, I think it was pleurisy whilst he was in hospital. He was in Rauceby Hospital. And that, and then whilst we was, oh whilst we were on, on sick leave, yes, that’s right. Whilst we were on sick leave because that was about three months wasn’t it that we were off sick leave? He did come down to my family’s home in Birchington and so, so he got quite attached to, he stayed with us for a couple of nights and I’ve been in touch with them more or less ever since.
DM: Did you ever visit him in Australia?
CB: I thought of going to Australia but as far as, that just wouldn’t happen because the money in those days was very, very poor. I mean when I used to work in the garage I used to take home five pound a week. That was with Saturday overtime as well. So that, most of that went on food and lodging and, I don’t know.
DM: After you got your cards did you stay in the garage trade or did you change tack?
CB: No. No. No. When, when I got the cards I went on to, I picked up another job working in an ice cream factory [laughs] That was interesting but we used to make the ice cream and I used to be, as a driver I used to deliver it as well. Went to all the shops. We were doing, quite a nice business that was. Yeah. So —
DM: When did you move up to Surbiton area?
CB: Oh, that, that was after I’d been messed around with little odd jobs like that of course [pause] Oh, whilst, whilst I was still at the garage we, I used to go into Margate with about two or three of us ex-service and just to have a drink and pass around Margate et cetera, and that’s where we met up with a couple of girls there. And they were, we were we always used to leave it ‘til we missed the last bus home which was about a three and a half miles walk and we were just starting to come back to Birchington and met these two girls and they said, ‘We can’t find our hotel.’ So I said, ‘Well, what’s the name of it? Where is it?’ I says, it was on the way to where we were going so, ‘We’ll take you there.’ And that’s it. Anyway, the outcome of that was I kept in touch with one of them, was Dorothy and after about eighteen months I think it was we got married but she was living in Surbiton and this is how I came up this way. When the jobs were getting a bit dodgy Dot’s father, Dorothy’s father, he said, he said, ‘Do you want, do you fancy working up with me?’ And that was with the Metropolitan Water Board in Surbiton. And I said, I asked all about it and so the first thing we knew was that, ‘Oh, yes. Well, yes I can but what’s the wages?’ ‘Oh, it would be starting at ten pound a week.’ I thought ten pound? Double what I was getting and so I said yes. So, we come up to Surbiton and I was with the Metropolitan Water Board working in the engineering side and that was for about a year or something like that I think and it was getting a bit boring on there although it was interesting work because we used to do the engineering side. Then I went on to looking after the boilers on there because they were steam turbines on there and they used to have the massive great big boilers. It was the pumping station for most of the west of London, you know. Surbiton, Kingston, Putney, Honor Oak, Battersea. You know, all those surrounding in that section of, of what’s the name? And, and then of course when I finished with the, oh I thought it was about time I had a change after I’d been on there for a while. After I went on to an inspection course as an inspector of water fittings et cetera up in Battersea. And that was, that was about a three mile ride again every day on the bike. Yes. And then from then on I was really doing quite well on that because in the end was, you know I was always checking around people’s leaks, looking after tap washers and things like that and anything new, used to look after that. Make sure they’d done all the fittings correctly and up to British Standard specs et cetera. And then I thought well what’s the next move now because this was getting a bit stale again. And so I thought well, the next move on that would have been if you wanted to go any further stages going upwards you’d have to wait for an inspection side, supervising et cetera. You had to wait ‘til somebody either dies or retires. That wasn’t very good as far as I was concerned so I went in to, took a radio engineer’s course. You know, what do they call it when you do it by post?
DM: Telegrams?
CB: What?
DM: Telegrams? Right?
Other: Correspondence.
CB: Correspondence course.
DM: Correspondence. I see what you mean. You did a correspondence course on radio engineering. Yes.
CB: A correspondence course. Radio engineers. And on the strength of that I got a job with EMI. Electrical Musical Industries. And that was to do with Ministry of Defence work doing all the sensing heads for all these different missiles. Skyflash, Seawolf and you’ve probably heard of some of those and we were working on that. I lasted about twenty six, I think, years altogether.
DM: So, that one kept your interest up. That one did.
CB: That kept my interest on that one. It was, it was quite good because it was all good work and always up to the highest standards. I was overlooked most of the time by Minister of Defence officials to see that work was done up to the standard wanted and it was quite interesting. I finished up being in charge of one, one section there until, until I retired. But I did have a heart attack about two years before that and so that sort of put me off song a bit and oh yes because that was when I had the heart attack I had to have a kick start on that one.
DM: Right.
CB: And so anyway, I did go on for a bit longer and then of course retired.
DM: So, looking back on your days in the RAF do you have fond memories of it now or —
CB: Well, I know that I’ve never never forgotten a lot of it. Most of it was what, what happened during, whilst we were at Kelstern but the sort of, that stuck in your mind. I remember things about that that, well just don’t go. I still remember it quite a lot in the details of what goes on there. Yeah. That plane which when Dave and I both got wounded and the windscreen blown out. That plane never flew again neither so it must have been well and truly peppered because it never did fly again. So —
[pause]
CB: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Cyril Edwin Bailey
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Meanwell
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-04-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABaileyCE180424
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:05:31 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Description
An account of the resource
Cyril Bailey was working in a garage before he volunteered for the RAF. He considered that he would like to be a mechanic but was told there were no vacancies and he was encouraged to become a flight engineer. He joined 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern and became the only English member of an all-Australian crew. On an operation to Dortmund he and the pilot were both injured by shrapnel. The pilot’s hand was so badly injured he was no longer able to play the piano which had been one of his jobs as a pre-war teacher. On another occasion the bomb aimer made his way past Cyril and collapsed. Cyril applied oxygen and revived him. While on an operation three other aircraft were in view when they were attacked by an ME 262 who shot down the other aircraft and was just closing in on Cyril’s aircraft when the pilot executed a corkscrew manoeuvre and they were able to escape. While with another crew Cyril was walking to briefing with his pilot and said he expected the operation that night would be Dortmund. This proved to be the case. The pilot made sure to fly within the gaggle because this was like a premonition. After his tour of operations Cyril was posted to India as a driver.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dortmund
Wales--Glamorgan
Netherlands
Netherlands--Wassenaar
England--Yorkshire
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-11-29
1945
625 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 262
military service conditions
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lindholme
RAF St Athan
superstition
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/845/10839/AGreenWG150911.1.mp3
ba6635496652503178b42beb5d3131ea
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Green, Geoff
William Geoffrey Green
W G Green
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Green DFC and bar (176170 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner and gunnery leader with 100 and 625 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Green, WG
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AGreenWG150911
BW: Right. This is Brian Wright. I'm interviewing Squadron Leader Green at […], and it's Friday the eleventh of September, twenty fifteen, at two thirty. So, Squadron Leader Green, I understand you were a rear gunner in a Lancaster.
WG: Yes, Gunnery Leader. Yes, I was in the rear turret, yes.
BW: Could we just start with your full name and your rank at the time you were doing these operations.
WG: Yes, it's William, do you want the [pause] name, when you say name, full name.
BW: Yes please, yes.
WG: What's the word I want for the Christian, ah, Christian names you want, do you?
BW: That's right.
WG: William Geoffrey Green. That's, er, Geoffrey is G E O double F R E Y.
BW: OK. And what rank were you at the time, when you joined the squadron?
WG: I was a Sergeant.
BW: Sergeant.
WG: I passed out as a Sergeant, yes.
BW: OK. And, if you would, just describe for me, please, what your life was like prior to you joining the RAF. Where did you live, and what prompted you to join the RAF?
WG: Yes. Well, I was born in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. [pause]
BW: And how long were you living there before you joined up?
WG: I joined up when I was seventeen and a half, officially, but as far as they were concerned, I was eighteen, because you had to be eighteen then. Yes, anyway, that's right, I joined up and then from there, I went to, oh dear, it's a long time ago [pause]. Well, I was being trained, you know, in various places; OTU's.
BW: Yes
WG: Operational Training Units, and all those sorts of things. The usual, the usual drill, you know, for a new boy, if you follow me. And, er
BW: Did you come from a large family?
WG: No, I had one sister.. [pause], I had one sister, was she in the WAAF? I don't think she was. Oh, it was you in the WAAF, oh no it wasn't?
Laura: No. Mother.
WG: Oh, your mother. Yes, that's right and then, oh, I've lost my train of thought now.
BW: And what prompted you to join the RAF? There was obviously a war going on at the time. Why the RAF and not the other services?
WG: Yes there was. I had a silly though that if I didn't [pause], if I didn't join the Air Force to fly, there was no point in joining it. That was the main reason. I didn't, I had no, all my friends at home, school friends and what-not were in the Army, and I hadn't anything, hadn't any keenness to join the Army. I always, I think I always wanted to fly, until I did, and then of course, I didn't want to [laughs]. My father used to say, 'I can't understand why you want to fly'. And of course, I thought that over, and I thought, 'you're dead right’. I don't know why I wanted to fly, because as soon as I started I was, not terrified, but bordering [laughs]. No, it's a bit of a line, that. I was pleased to fly. I realised I wasn't a Navy type, and I don't suppose they would have accepted me, anyway, because they were, the people they, the people that went into the Navy who I knew were all sort of special types, they'd got something to really offer that service. Well, I had nothing at all to offer the Air Force, but I just wanted to, I just thought it would be just nice to come home on leave, and walk up and down the High Street in my uniform. [laughs]. Oh dear.
BW: And did the thought of becoming a pilot attract you, or was it something that you thought, I’d rather be in a crew?
WG: Yes, it was. I got accepted, I was accepted under the PNB scheme, which stood for Pilot, Navigator, Bomb Aimer. In other words, if you failed as a pilot, they tried to train you then as a Navigator, and if you failed at that, you were trained as a bomb aimer. And if you failed at that, you were out [laughs], so I should have got out in the first place to save all that trouble.
BW: So how did you end up, then, as a gunner? Because if you were on that scheme, and as you said, if you weren't successful in one of those categories, you were out. What then led you to be a gunner?
WG: Well, that was the last thing I could be before I was out.
BW: I see.
WG: That was the lowest form of animal life, I suppose, and if you failed at being an air gunner, well they didn't want you. You can't blame them, I suppose but fortunately, I didn't fail. I often thought I would, but I wasn't good at maths and that sort of thing, you know. I did think of, I was mustering to train as a navigator, and then I realised that I would need a higher standard of maths than I could offer, so I just had to let them sort of guide me through the Air Force, sort of thing, without volunteering for anything.
BW: And what were the tests like, that you had to sit during your training? Do you remember those?
WG: Err, well yes, there were partly navigation, but very, very junior navigation stuff. Nothing complicated, because if it was, I wouldn't have got it but -. What else was it, oh, it's a long time ago. Err, aircraft recognition, that sort of thing, signals, and that's about all, you know. And then I, and then I was transferred on to do an instructors course, and I joined an instructors team to train the lads coming in, sort of thing, you know. But it didn't last very long because I, well, oh for about, maybe about six months, because I was not really the type to train people. I was too short tempered, I suppose. If they didn't, er, if they didn't sort of pick it up the first time, I didn't want to know, and I didn't give a second chance. I had many a second chance, but I didn't, I didn’t agree with that. Oh, I don't know. So there you are.
BW: And what was life like on the base? You went through the training and the Operational Training Units, and you got to base. What was the accommodation like? What were the facilities like on the base at the time?
WG: Excellent. You mean living accommodation and food, that sort of thing? Oh yes. Yes, in those days, aircrew had, aircrew had, er, they didn't eat with the non-aircrew type, if you follow me. You didn't actually have special food, I suppose, though I don't really know, but it was jolly good food, and you were built up a bit that way. I was a bit of a weedy lad when I was young, younger, so I was built up really, I suppose.
BW: So you were well fed?
WG: Well fed, yes, oh yes.
BW: Your training and lifestyle really made a man of you in that respect
WG: Oh yes, yes, and of course, when you'd finished in the daytime, you were really on the town at night, you know. The SP's were chasing you, or you were chasing the SP's [laughs], and being rude to people, I expect. Oh dear.
BW: So where did you socialise when you went off base, where were the local towns that you would visit?
WG: Oh, Grimsby. Grimsby, er, oh dear, I should have got the log book, I could show you my log book, if you wanted to see it, if it would be any use to you, would it?
BW: If you have it, and it's not inconvenient, yes, that would help.
WG: It's in the drawer, Laura dear, would you mind. That's very kind of you. Yes, what was I talking about?
BW: Visiting Grimsby?
WG: Log book, oh I remember, yes, I'm very forgetful nowadays, you've obviously noticed.
BW: You were talking about Grimsby, and visiting towns.
WG: Oh yes, Grimsby, Grimsby, Lincoln, er. Yes, I did a tour from Grimsby, I did a tour from Grimsby at a place called Waltham. Was it? Yes, Waltham. And then I thought, 'well that's that, I've finished my flying'. But I hadn't. Instead of being transferred to instructing, I think they realised I was no good at it, because I was interviewed, instead of being, er, what did I do then? I went to, I went to, I stayed on at Grimsby instructing, for a while, and then I went to two or three other stations in Lincolnshire, instructing, you know. And not only instructing, but giving talks on what it was like, if you follow me, you know. I suppose line-shooting, you know.
BW: And was this with a view to encouraging new recruits to join the Air Force?
WG: Beg pardon?
BW: Was this with a view to encouraging new recruits to join the Air Force?
WG: It was, yes. It was going round instructing to recruits, yes. I went round to one or two stations. Bircham Newton and Finningley, all in the Lincolnshire area, you know and then I, then I was screened, as they called it, taken off, and I thought, 'well that's that, I've finished the dicey part of flying'. But of course, I hadn't. I should think it would only be about six to eight months, and I was sent back again, which rather shook me, because I thought I'd done with all that nonsense. And I thought, ' well, this is tempting suicide', but it wasn't. I completed a second tour then and then I went back on to instructing again. And what happened then? It was getting towards the end of the war, I suppose. And it's difficult trying to remember what I did then. I stayed in Lincolnshire, I know. Mainly, I was always flying anyway as well as instructing, well, with instructing, you were flying as well. The new recruits, the new aircrew people and then I suppose the war ended. Well, no, it couldn't have done because I did a second, I was going back on a third tour. Voluntary, actually. Other blokes, er, I was no good at instructing, and I was interviewed for another instructors job, but I asked to go back on a third tour, but fortunately [chuckles] the war ended. So I didn't do a third tour. That's why I'm here, I suppose.
BW: And so, you were doing the instructing in between your tours? You did your first tour, then had the instructor posts you were talking about.
WG: That's it.
BW:Then second tour.
WG: Second tour
BW: Followed by another post as instructor.
WG: Well yes, but it didn't come off, the second, the second instructing bit
BW: Right. So, just take us back, then, to that point when you met your crew. How did you join up as a crew, how did you meet and crew-up?
WG: We went to, I can't remember the station, but it, as I say, it'll be in my log book, which is out there. Oh, Laura's got it. Thank you very much. I, er, oh dear. Excuse me. Here we go. Oh, there's a five pound note there, Laura. Is it yours?
Laura: No.
WG: That's something, isn't it? I'm glad you came [laughs]. Would you like to look at this yourself?
BW: Yes, we can have a look through. I'll just put the recorder on pause while we pick out one or two points in the log books.
WG: Alright. This is 'Results of Ammunition Courses and Remarks'. That's the one, that's it. There you are, there's a good write up here [laughs], though my mother wouldn't agree, 'could have done much better had he tried harder' [laughs]. That's what the school people used to say. 'Over confident, needs watching'. One signed by a Squadron Leader, here it is, 'could have done much better had he tried harder'. 'Over confident, needs watching'. That's that bit. And then here, [paper rustling] oh dear, oh dear, here we are. Here we come to the nitty-gritty stuff. These are all the, this is Seventeen Air-gunners School, Stormy Down, Bridgend, Glamorganshire, South Wales. I was a trainee here. Here I was training on Whitley's, Defiants. Whitley's and Defiants, yes, and that was headquarters training with number 17 AGS. And then in nineteen forty three, I was on number 28 OTU, Wymeswold, Leicestershire. Er, circuits and landings, and what-not. Cross countries, landings, formation flying, air test, cross country, bombing, exercise, and all that business. What's all this? Oh, exercises, bombing exercises, circuits and landings, circuits and landings, at night, circuits and landings, cross countries, cross countries, bombing, that was all night flying. [unclear] Then I went to heavy conversion unit, Number 1656 Heavy Conversion Unit, Lindholme, Yorkshire, where I flew on Halifaxes, Lancasters. Circuits and landings, cross countries, oh dear, they were a bind.
BW: What did you think of flying in the Halifaxes and Lancasters? You'd previously flown in, say, Whitleys, how did that?
WG: Well, it was really, really nice to be on them, because it was a step up, if you follow me. Halifaxes, I didn't like Halifaxes, except that there was plenty of room down in the rear turret. You could move about a bit, you know. In fact, they seemed to me to be too big, quite honestly but they were much better, in my opinion, they were much better than the Lancaster. The Lancaster, you were a bit cooped up, you know, it was a bit difficult to move. They were hard to get into. To get into, you got in the back door and then you lifted up onto a sort of a table, a long table, then you had to get, you had to hang on with your hands at the back, and get your feet on to this table, and push yourself forward until you got to the doors of the rear turret. And then you got into the rear turret and closed your doors, and you really felt trapped in, sort of thing, but once you started flying, you, I overcame that. I don't know about others but I overcame it.
BW: Is it correct you had to leave your 'chute outside of the turret? You had to put it on the side?
WG: Yes, on the left hand side. In a clip. You couldn't, with the Lancaster, you couldn't get your, that was a snag, you couldn't get your parachute actually in with you. If you had to bale out, you had to centralise the turret, turn it to starboard, open the door, open the doors, and you really were, as you opened the doors there, you were outside in the thin air, you know. But with the, that was with the Lancaster, but with the Halifax, it was a bit different, to a point anyway, but it was all a bit, it was all a bit nerve-wracking to begin with. And then you suddenly got used to it, and you got used to people saying, 'well, you shouldn't have joined', sort of thing, you know [chuckles], which of course was very true. But too late. [laughs]. I was looking back, well it's different looking back, but at the time I used to think to myself, 'I'll be glad when this is over', but when it was over, I was rather pleased that I could think back on those days, and the people I knew. They all seemed different from the, this is, shouldn't really say it but they seemed different from your ground crew friends, you know. Different type. As if when you were being selected for flying, that they were looking for something. Which they found [laughs]. Oh dear, yes.
BW: And how did you feel being a rear gunner, when there were other gunners on board. I mean, being a tail gunner is perhaps traditionally thought of as, er, a job a lot of people wouldn't want.
WG: Very true, yes. I felt safe in the rear turret because it was, in my opinion, I think, when I got in and got the door shut in the training, I thought, well, at least if anything happens, I've only got to turn this to port or starboard, half turn, and do that, or do that, and the doors automatically opened, and you go out backwards. Once you got your parachute clipped on, you know. Er, yes. What was that question you asked me?
BW: Originally, how did you crew up, how did you meet? At the Conversion Unit.
WG: Oh yes, that's it. We went to an Operational Training Unit, and they said, 'right, you're going to, there are either seven or nine crews of you'. In other words, there were either, there were seven to a crew, so there were either forty nine of us, which was seven to a crew, oh, I forget. I can't forget how many there were in the other lot. And then we were put into, we were put into an operations room, and said, 'right, well there are seven aircrew positions amongst you, and each, each aircraft has seven men', seven different types, gunners, signallers, all that nonsense, and we were told to pick our crew. And you sort of looked round at people, and I found myself with another bloke, just stuck. Nobody seemed to want us, we were just standing there. Everybody else had got, had been picked, as a crew, you know. Which I suppose is rather fortunate, because I, that's how I met Ron Clarke, who I've kept in touch with ever since. But he's dead. He died suddenly. He and his wife died. But we, and then there were six of us who were there that, later on, on my second tour, were picked for going up to Air Ministry for being decorated. And [chuckles], yes, that's right yes, we went up to Air Ministry, and so many of us got a DSO, I got a DFC. And then, let's see, after that I was posted to Bircham Newton, I think it was, training staff, training aircrew, you know, which was a bit of a bind, so I volunteered for a third tour, but it never came off because the, it was quite obvious that the war was ending, and it did, and I didn't do a third tour. Which perhaps was a good thing. That's why I'm here, I expect [laughs].
BW: You mentioned going up to the Air Ministry to get a Distinguished Flying Cross, and they were only awarded to officers at that particular time-
WG: I beg your pardon?
BW: They were only awarded to officers at that particular time, a DFC. Do you recall what the event was that led you to be decorated?
WG: Er, oh yes. Yes. It was, there were several air, several air, several Lancasters were lost, and it was, all I could really say was, it was a very dodgy period. It was, well in my case you were frightened. Quite often. You didn't just think you were frightened, I was frightened, but you overcame that, I overcame that to the point where, I wasn't pleased to go on Op's, but I used to wake up in the morning thinking, 'well, if we're on Op's tonight, is it going to happen?' That's how it got me in the end, and I used to wonder if I would lose my life, you know. Which I didn't, of course, but there you are. And then after my first tour, as I say, I went on instructing, and I was going on for a third instruction course, but I was selected for another tour of Op's, and I took rather a dim view of that, because I thought to myself,' you could go on too long', you know. There's a limit to it. Lots of blokes, I knew several people, several blokes who were, who had done two or three tours, but it was a bit dodgy, you know. So fortunately, I went back on to instructing, went on to instructing, oh, and then I went round, then I went round to schools, in the Lincolnshire area, I suppose, in other words telling them how brave you were [laughs]. And they seemed to believe it [chuckles]. Yes. And after that I was taken off flying. I think I got a bit 'flak happy', as they called it. If you'd done too much operational flying, you were getting a bit round the bend, you know, and you were doing silly things, and taking too many risks, I suppose. And then, yes after the instructing, I suppose the war ended. I don't know when it did end.
BW: You mentioned about, er, thinking about whether you were going to be on Op's the next night, and so on, and it was popular for crews to take mascots, or lucky charms, or have certain rituals. Did you have any of those?
WG: No. I had no faith in lucky charms.
BW: Did any of the crew that you flew with have anything?
WG: Yes, they used to take things that, usually belonged to their wives. My navigator had a, what was it, oh, a little paper, not paper, a little doll about as big as that, that she'd had as a kid. And I suppose they thought, 'well, if I take this, I shan't get killed', sort of thing. That's how you thought of it in those days, you know. You thought, I half expected, I didn't think I would get through, quite honestly. I never thought I'd get through a second tour, and when I was half way through my first tour, I said, 'well, if I get through my first tour, I'm not going to volunteer for a second tour'. But I did. I volunteered to stay on [laughs].
BW: And it was usual, for pilots certainly, who had completed thirty operations to be awarded the DFC? What did you get your DFC for?
WG: No, it wasn't [pause], you're right in saying up to a point, but my skipper was awarded a DFC, but not for doing a second tour. There were, there were, I did know one or two blokes who got them for doing a second tour, but nobody ever seemed to know why. We took a dim view that you joined, you went as aircrew, and that was your job. So of course, of course, you were flying on op's, and bombing Germany and all that sort of thing, but to be decorated just for becoming aircrew, I thought was all wrong. But that was all besides the point, I suppose.
BW: And was yours awarded because you'd completed a number of operations, or was it for a single action?
WG: No, I shot down- oh dear, what did I shoot down? An ME109, I think. I've got it in here somewhere. I've got it in here somewhere. Yeah, I shot down [pause], I don't know if I'm boring you?
BW: No, no. Not at all.
WG: Kelstern to form. Oh yes, I went to Kelstern then, to help form a new squadron. 625 Squadron, with two other aircrews. And we went on another, we went on, we went on to, we formed 625 Squadron, at Kelstern there, and then I got an immediate award. I've got it here in red ink. See previous page. 'Doug Wheeler badly wounded'. He was the bomb aimer, he was badly wounded. And I went up onto the [coughs], there was a bed in the aircraft, just before you get into the pilot's area, and the navigator's, the front part, and he was badly wounded, and they took him up onto the aircrew bed, and I sat with him and [coughs], that’s right. and Warrant Officer Clarke was the pilot, and he was awarded the DFM as well, and the flight engineer was as well. The three of them were awarded the DFM, because they were all NCO's then. And that's about all there.
BW: Your bomb aimer was badly wounded, and you went up.
WG: The bomb aimer was badly wounded, that's right, yes. The bomb aimer was badly wounded, and he lost quite a lot of blood. And it was thought, not by me, but it was thought by, I think it was the bomb aimer, er, I think it was the wireless operator relieved me sitting with him, and he seemed to think that he was losing too much blood, so he couldn't last much longer. But he did, of course. And he and I left together, and I remember, I remember walking down to Grimsby railway station, and our kit was already there. We were being posted. I was going home, home on leave, and he was going home on leave, and it was on the railway station, that's right, both of us on the railway station, and we both said goodbye as our various trains, as our trains came in, and that was that. I kept in touch with him, we kept in touch with each other, but I did not see him again. I went to his home town in, I went to his home town and I met his mother, his father was dead, and I think I met his brother, who had already been accepted for aircrew, but was still a civilian. And then from there I went somewhere else instructing, so I thought, well, I couldn't keep on with this instructing business, because I was never good at it really. I was the wrong temperament. And I volunteered for a third, I volunteered for a third tour. But it was quite obvious the war was ending, and I was never called back to do a third tour. And that was that, I went on a further instruction course, and I was going to join, I was going to be transferred to the er, transferred to the American Air Force, with others but, who were stationed in Lincolnshire, but it never materialised, fortunately. I went to, oh I forget where I went then.
Laura: You went to India.
WG: Oh, I went touring. Touring round various stations, Army and Navy, no, not Navy, but Army and Air Force stations telling them what it was like on operations, sort of thing, you know. You shot a line [chuckles].
BW: Now, you mentioned on that particular instance when you were looking in your log book, that the pilot and the flight engineer were also awarded medals. The pilot got a DFC and the navigator got a DFM. Was your DFC awarded on the same raid, because they got those medals as a result of their actions over Mannheim.
WG: No, I got mine, yes, Mannheim, wasn't it, I got mine after I'd left them. I was on my second tour then. I think I'd started my third tour, quite honestly. But I don't really, it'll be in the log book here. Yes, yeah, I can't remember really.
BW: Ok, do you recall that night when you flew over Mannheim. It was a particularly notable instance, but what were your recollections?
WG: It was, sorry?
BW: It was a notable raid that night.
WG: It was indeed, yes.
BW: What were your recollections of it?
WG: Er, perhaps being more frightened than I normally was. Yes, when you're running up to, the bomb aimer, as you obviously know, was right in the front, I mean, the bomb aimer's nose was there, and there was the fresh air, there, sort of thing, you know. And when you're up the front there, I suppose I was more frightened, but it did pass off, you know. Because I thought, well, if I'm going to frightened like this, I'm going to be no good to the aircrew. They won't want me. That's when he was taken down to the bed, and I went down there with him as another member of the aircrew. Immediate award of the DFC to Warrant Officer Clarke, and the DFM to flight engineer. Warrant Officers and Officers, if they were decorated, got a DFM, and, oh yes [unclear], oh I don't remember, but it's not important.
BW: You mentioned that you'd shot down a ME109.
WG: Yes.
BW: And was that while you were over Mannheim? Or was that on a separate raid?
WG: No, it wasn't when we were over Mannheim, no. Everybody thought Mannheim was going to be a killer, sort of thing, but it wasn't, so it must have been another. No, it wasn't Mannheim. [reading]. 'Immediate award of the DFC, immediate award of the DFC.' Oh yes it was, it was Mannheim. It was Mannheim that we got it, the three of us. We were badly shot up by night-fighters. We were coned, we were coned in searchlights. The searchlights, when you're coned in a searchlight, it switches on twice, a certain searchlight. You see the searchlight in the distance, or I would see them at the back of me, being in the rear turret, creeping up at you on the back, and they would switch on and switch off, twice, and the third time when they switched on, they'd got you. And it was just like this in the turrets, daylight, you know. And of course, that's when the fighters see you and they come in to attack. But we weren't attacked, but we were coned, and it was, it was just like daylight. [Reading] 'Night-fighter, night-fighters, coned in searchlights', that's right. And, that's right, yes, that's it, we were hit there because it says here that we were, 'coned in searchlights and riddled with flak. Upon landing aircraft broke in two', oh yes, and on landing our aircraft broke it's back. And we went, I think Clarke took it into a hedge, because we were still going pretty fast down the runway, having just landed, and we went off the runway, dead ahead, and into that hedge, sort of thing. Which obviously stopped us, and nobody, no sound and nobody moved, it was just as though the whole lot of us were dead [laughs]. It wasn't until we crawled out, feeling very sorry for ourselves [laughs].
BW: And you were saying about the flak on that, on that mission, that it was accurate, and it was at the height that you were at, and it sounded like hail on the side
WG: That's it, the flak, the flak, the flak that was coming up from the ground to the fighters, was coming down onto our aircraft as well, and we could feel it. It shook, it shook the aircraft a bit. That was particularly frightening, I suppose, but only for a while. I'm convinced that, I'm convinced that many times, I never spoke about it, to see if others witnessed it, but many times I was so, so frightened to a point where I was frightened back to normality. I used to think to myself, 'Christ, I'm frightened. This is no good.' And then suddenly, it was suddenly clear, and I would be quite happy to be sitting there, waiting for it to happen. It was as simple as that, you know. You were so frightened, you would be glad to be hit, and shot down. That was the truth, I suppose. Up until then, up until then, when you knew Op's were on, and you were getting up and shaving and what not, you thought, 'well, what's going to happen, I wonder, today.' And, 'tonight', rather, and so often nothing happened. We were only attacked twice, I think. I did fifty five, I did, yes I did fifty five bombing raids on Germany, nine on Berlin, and that was pretty frightening. I was frightened going over Berlin, because they really were a crack lot, the German, the German fighters. I mean, once they'd got you in their sights you could imagine them saying to themselves, 'I've got him this time’. And they would, you see, you'd see others being shot down, of your own type. I saw quite a lot.
BW: You saw quite a lot?
WG: Well, I say quite a lot, less than a dozen, but you know, if you look across at somebody by your side, you see maybe a mile away, and then you see a ball of light on this aircraft, and it gets bigger and bigger, and then suddenly it blows, and that's frightening, you think, 'well, it could happen to me, this’. But, it didn't. But it was frightening to see somebody else, some of your own people shot down. And, I suppose, to see others, the enemy shot down, because you think, well they've all got mothers and fathers. What are they going to say when they get home, you know.
BW: Some veterans talk about it being relatively isolated in the formation, in other words, they would fly a mission and not see other aircraft, perhaps until they were over the target. Was that something you saw as well?
WG: Sorry?
BW: Some veterans say that they didn't see other aircraft in the formation until they were perhaps over the target. Do you, was that something you experienced as well, or were you aware you were in a formation all the time you were on the mission, or did you only see them over the target?
WG: No, we weren't so much together, in a heap, going over. You didn't see any of your own aircraft, seldom saw. The only time you saw other aircraft, or I saw other aircraft, was when German aircraft were firing at our aircraft, in the sky somewhere, but not actually firing at ourselves. So rightly or wrongly, I thought, 'well, thank god they're firing at them and not us’, sort of thing. You know. I didn't feel sorry for the others, I was just pleased for myself [chuckles].
BW: Were you able to pick out enemy night fighters at the time?
WG: Yes. Not so much fighters, but Heinkels. Bombers. We flew alongside, they flew alongside us, or we flew alongside them, same thing, for quite a while and you didn't open fire, I didn't at least, the other two gunners in our aircraft and myself didn't open fire, because you thought, well they're not firing at us so they haven't seen us, so if we fire at them, they're going to see the light from our shots going out, you know.
BW: The muzzle flash and the tracers.
WG: Pardon?
BW: They would see the muzzle flash and the tracers.
WG: Exactly, yes. You'd be giving your position away. And you just called up the pilot, and he would usually do a power dive, which could be quite dicey because you never knew if you really would pull out of a power dive. Especially if you'd still got your bombs on board. So the practice was for the bomb aimer to jettison his bombs, no matter where he was, where we were, but to jettison the bombs to lighten your load and increase your speed a bit, in a dive, you know. We'd been down as much as below a thousand feet, which is a bit of a bind, in a way. You get away from them, but you've got the bind of the slow climb up where they could see you, they could see your engines lit up, you know [pause], yes, they could see you more clearly then.
BW: And I believe you flew a couple of raids over Italy as well.
WG: Oh yes, that's right. Oh yes, so I did. I flew over [reading] Munich, Stuttgart, Hanover, Berlin, Berlin, Mannheim, Munich, Mannheim, er, Hamburg, Nuremberg, Milan. There you are, Milan. Peennemunde, Leverkusen, Berlin, Nuremberg. Oh yes. Did not complete operation. One of the engines was hit. It started a fire, we thought, but it didn't. And Berlin again, then Berlin, Mannheim, Munich, Mannheim. Mannheim was a bad place to bomb. They were very good there, with their night fighters. Hagen, Munich , Stuttgart, Hanover. Oh dear, so it goes on, so it goes on. Stettin, er Russelsheim, Stettin again. Oh, yes, then we went on to the V2 sights. They were in daylight, which was particularly bad. Frankfurt, Danzig, mining. mining Danzig Bay, that was a long trip, that was nine hours there and back. Westkapelle, daylight, Calais, daylight, Cap Brunet, daylight, three hours fifteen, oh dear, oh dear, Westkapelle, damn-busting, daylight. Saarbruken, Stuttgart, six hours fifty five minutes, Essen, five hours thirty, Cologne, oh dear, oh dear, I didn't know I'd done all this [chuckles].
BW: This must have been in nineteen forty four.
WG: Yes it was, November. November forty four. Gelsenkirchen, Van Ickel, that was in the Ruhr, Dortmund, er Maasberg, wherever that was, I don't know. That was on the second tour. Er, Marseilles. Yes, that's about it. The rest of it's all Transport Command stuff. Getting toward the end of the war then. And, er, and, that was it. Calcutta. Delhi and Calcutta, Delhi and Calcutta, Bangalore, Yellow Hanker.
BW: What were you flying there, in Transport Command? In India.
WG: Er, Lancasters. I was always on Lancasters. Except in training, when I was on Lancasters, and oh, what do you call the bloody things? [unclear] I've forgotten what they're called. [pause]. They're all Lancasters there. They're all Lancasters.
BW: You spent a lot of time. obviously, over the Ruhr. So your aircraft, when you were at 100 Squadron, the Phantom of the Ruhr, was appropriately named, wasn't it?
WG: Yes, yes. Sorry?
BW: I say your aircraft, the Lancaster, was called the Phantom of the Ruhr.
WG: That's right, yes.
BW: It was appropriately named, you spent so much time over it.
WG: Yes, the navigator, no, not the navigator, the bloke next to the pilot, the flight engineer, did a very good etching of the scene. What was it was called?
BW: Phantom of the Ruhr.
WG: Oh, that's right, yes. He did, he actually drew a phantom, the head, you know, of a phantom, then underneath he wrote, ' Phantom of the Ruhr'. Yes, I had a photograph of that, I don't know what happened to it. I've lost lots of things I wish I'd kept. Um. Yes [pause]. Yes, there were good and bad days, you know, good and bad days. I often thought, many times, I should never have volunteered, and then I thought, well, if I don't volunteer for flying, there's not much point in volunteering for the Air Force. And I couldn't volunteer for that, I couldn't be an Army bloke. I couldn't have been in the Army. I wouldn't have wanted to be a soldier.
BW: I have a photograph here of the nose-art of the aircraft.
WG: Oh, that's it. The engineer did that.
BW: I think this was after your time on the aircraft, it went on to fly over a hundred sorties.
WG: Yes, that's right.
BW: I think the crew pictured here, unless you recognise any of them, are from the end of the tour, because there's quite a number of –
WG: I don’t think I’ve seen this. Yes, here you are.
BW: - bomb markers on the side, there, to indicate the number of sorties.
WG: May I just show this to Laura? You can come over, it's all right. That's, our flight engineer drew that, and I stood, er, I stood, this is the front of the aircraft, as you'll appreciate and I stood beneath the aircraft here. I stood on a [slight pause], what do you have with Scotch to drink?
Laura: Tonic?
WG: Tonic. I stood on a Schweppes, an empty Schweppes tonic box and held the paint, held the point, no, the pint, held the paint up like this, while he dipped it in and drew that.
Laura: Very clever, wasn't it?
WG: Yes. He was standing about here, and I was over on this side, and, yes, well, that's nice, that. And then he would, and then I held the thing, whatever he wanted, his paint, when he painted the first half of those, they were all the bombs we dropped. And then our aircraft, we were taken off, and our aircraft went on to another crew, and that was their bit that they did.
Laura: My word.
WG: Yes. Now what was in there, oh nothing. There was something in there I was going to show you. But it's not important. Sorry about that.
BW: That's alright. There's another photograph here of your skipper, stood at the back of the aircraft, which has damage to the starboard elevator plane.
WG: That’s it.
BW: And there's your turret at the back, with a hood over it. It shows some of the damage that was received to the aircraft on that particular raid over Mannheim. The holes that the shells caused.
WG: Oh yes. That's it, yes. Oh yes. Yes, that's it. That's dear old Ron Clarke. He was a Warrant Officer then. There's his Warrant Officer's rank badge, there.
BW: Yes, on his right sleeve.
WG: Pardon.
BW: On his right sleeve.
WG: That's it, yes. And of course there're the holes in the aircraft that the flak caused, that shot up at us. And that was covered up, that was covered over for some reason or other. They were usually covered over, turrets, if they bought somebody back dead, you know. They were taken down to a special hanger for any repairs to be done, and for whoever was in the turret to be taken out, and then they'd, as a mark of respect, they covered it over. Thank you. Yes. [Pause]
BW: Do you have any other information in the log book, at all? Do you have any other photos or descriptions, that you particularly recall?
WG: Oh, I don't know [unclear[ [pause]. No, all I've got is a letter from the Under-Secretary of State for Air, presents his compliments [chuckles], and by command of the Air Council, has the honour to transmit the enclosed awards granted for service during the war of nineteen thirty nine, forty five. That was that. I don't know what this is. This is, Squadron Leader in correspondence from reserve [unclear], oh, The Council, the Air Council desires me to convey to you their warm thanks for the services you have rendered to the Royal Air Force, which they greatly appreciated. They have granted you permission to retain the rank of Flight Lieutenant under the terms of paragraph three oh two of Queens Regulations and Air Council Instructions, but this grant of rank does not confer the right to any emoluments. Your attention is drawn to the attached memorandum, and also to the enclosed extract from Queens Regulations regarding the occasion on which officers who have been permitted to retain their rank, wear uniform and the badges of that rank. So I always keep that in case. I used to, I used to go on parades when I was still in the service, um, on uniform parades, but you couldn't do that unless you'd actually got permission to actually do that. Thank you. Well, sorry about all this, this is a non-issue.
BW: That's alright. That's no problem. You mentioned that you joined as a sergeant, and at some point you've obviously been commissioned.
WG: Yes.
BW: Do you recall when and how that happened?
WG: Well, I didn't actually join as a sergeant. I joined, I joined. War was declared on the Saturday. I was in the kitchen, helping my mother with getting the food ready, and war was declared at eleven o' clock on that Saturday, and I asked mother if she could lend me some money to get a ticket to go to Lincoln to volunteer for aircrew. And she, yes she did, she gave me the money. She wasn't, and of course my father was very, well, not very annoyed. He said, 'I can't understand it’, he said, ‘why don't you wait until you're called up?' [laughs] I said, 'if I wait, if I wait until I'm called up, I've been advised that they will put you anywhere in the crew, but if you volunteer, you can more or less choose if you want to be a rear gunner, or a signaller, or navigator', though I hadn't got the brains for that, navigator. But if you volunteered, you could choose more or less where you were going to fly, but if you didn't, you were put anywhere in the aircraft, where they wanted a spare bod, I mean. A Lanc would come back with, maybe with somebody killed in a turret, so they'd whip him out and stick you in, sort of thing. Filling in space, you see, that sort of thing, so that was the reason I volunteered, so that I could volunteer – I felt very happy in the rear turret. I never felt, I don't think I felt really frightened, once I got up in the air. But waking up in the morning, knowing that that night we were going on operations, I did feel a bit dodgy, but it wore off once I got on to the squadron, sort of thing. But until then I did feel a bit, I thought, well it could happen, and that sort of thing, and what's mother going to do, you know.
BW: What was your social life like on the squadron? You mentioned, you wouldn't be on op's every night.
WG: Oh no, no, The amount of flights I did, it's in the log book. Most op's was four nights in seven, following on. You see, you go on op's, and you might be on again tonight, and you were on again tonight, and you'd say, 'well, we can't be on tomorrow night'. But of course, when you woke up you found you were on, you know, I used to, even though I was not commissioned then, we did have a batman who used to look after us and keep our buttons clean, usual thing, you know, and they would do various things for you. I've forgotten what I was going to say, never mind, it doesn't matter.
BW: And did you get time to socialise? You mentioned going out to Grimsby and places, did you socialise in the mess, the Sergeants Mess?
WG: Oh yes. If you'd got a bit of money in your pocket, you would go out of the mess, into town, where'd you'd girlfriends, and that sort of thing, you know. But if you'd, if you hadn't got money, you would stay in the mess and use the facilities there, the bar, they usually specialised in supplying you with a good bar. I mean you paid for it, you had to buy the stuff, but there was a bar in every mess, and if you hadn't got much dough you would go into the bar in the mess because you could book it. And you didn't have to pay until the end of the month, when you got your money. Until then, you had to pay for it there and then.
BW: And did you socialise really with your crew? Did you go out together, or did you socialise with your other friends, who were gunners on other aircraft?
WG: Very seldom. If I socialised with anybody, which I did, it would be with those of my rank and air-crew calling. You know, air gunners would go with air gunners, and navigators with navigators, and that sort of thing. Occasionally I would go out with Clarke, my pilot. Quite often, I suppose really. He was an extremely nice bloke. And we used to go, er, we used to go, I suppose boozing. But not to get violently drunk, you know. Because it was too expensive, anyway [chuckles]. Otherwise we would never have been sober.
BW: And I believe you liked doing crosswords, as well, is that right?
WG: I beg your pardon.
BW: I believe you like doing crosswords.
WG: Yes, I used to do a crossword in the turret coming back quite often. It was advised not to in case we were followed back, and we were seen by whoever was following us back that we weren't really, that the turret wasn't moving. So that once you got up, once you left the shores of the country, you never kept your turret still. You always went backwards and forwards, up and down. So that if you were seen by enemy aircraft, they would see that you weren't asleep, you were alert, sort of thing, you know. That was the idea.
BW: And I believe that on the way back from a raid on Mannheim, when you had actually been shot up, and the searchlights were still on you, and following you away from the target, you joked that you had enough time to finish the crossword, because there was a light in the turret.
WG: No, at night time it isn't that dark. When you're flying, when you're up in the air at night, even if you're the only aircraft in the sky, the sky's still light. Not like this, but you know, you can be seen.
[Noises off as someone knocks to come in]
BW: Yes, I'll just pause the recording here for a moment.
BW: So, we're just looking through one or two things in the log book at the moment. Would you mind if I read a couple of extracts from it? Would that be alright?
WG: Say what? To read it out? Oh yes, yes.
BW: There's, [pause] firstly there is a description here for seventeenth of August nineteen forty three, a night mission to Peenemunde, codenamed Hydra. And the description underneath, which you've indicated, reads, 'six hundred aircraft, Lancasters, dropped sixteen hundred tons of high explosives. This prevented the stockpiling of five thousand V2's, which Hitler intended to be dropped on London simultaneously, in one day’. And there's a quote in a short section from the Daily Telegraph magazine which indicates that in general, the raid, Bomber Command's raid was an outstanding success, and a shattering attack on Peenemunde research and radio location factory, Germans biggest development centre for air defences. In a message to Sir Arthur Harris, Chief of Bomber Command, the Air Minister says, 'photographs prove the outstanding success of your attack’, and goes on to say, 'the accuracy of the bombing, in spite of a smokescreen, and of fierce fighting over the target, testifies to the skill and determination of your crews, and to the effectiveness of your planning and tactical methods’. And that was dated the fifth of June nineteen forty three. So that was obviously a very well defended target, but notable because of what was achieved as a result, in hitting the V2 sights. The other description in here comes from, erm, the forth of November nineteen forty four, which I think must be your second tour.
WG: Yes, yes it was the second tour, forty three, forty four.
BW: When you went on to 625 Squadron, based at Kelstern.
WG: Yes. We formed there, I think.
BW: And, I believe it was C Flight from 100 Squadron that formed 625.
WG: That's right. Yes.
BW: The description here says that it was a raid on Bokum, and that, in brackets, a jet aircraft, ME262 confirmed, and the description goes on to say, 'awarded the DFC. This was their fastest and latest fighter, and the first to be shot down at night by Bomber Command, and confirmed’.
WG: Yes, that's right. I shot it down, yes.
BW: That's particularly notable because firstly, it was a jet aircraft, and secondly, it was at night.
WG: Yes.
BW: Do you recall how you recognised the aircraft? Did it appear to be a jet, were you able to recognise it? Or was it just another target for you?
WG: Well, when I was on then, on both tours, the only [pause] if it hadn't got four engines, which were easy to pick out, even at night, because it's not as dark as all that up there at night. But it is dark, of course, but if it hadn't got four engines, you had a go at it. Because it shouldn't have been up there, sort of thing, so it must have been an enemy. Must be an enemy. You didn't recognise it perhaps as an enemy, except that it had only got two engines. Otherwise, it would have four. Which meant it was one of your own.
BW: And who saw who first? Do you think.
WG: Well exactly, yes.
BW: Who saw who first on that occasion? Did you see him?
WG: That I can't remember. I don't, I only remember being attacked maybe a couple of times, but that was in the early part of the war [pause]. It's difficult [pause]. Yes it’s, you could pick them out, quickly. But even if you didn't, you still fired at them, because you couldn't take the risk. If you didn't fire at them and they were enemy, they fired at you, it would be too late because they might hit you. But it was better to take a chance, and sometimes a wrong chance. On occasions your own being shot down. That has happened. I don't know how it was proven, but it all comes out at, it all comes out when you come back, and you're interrogated. And you really are interrogated, I mean, you don't stand a chance, even if you want to, to shoot a line or tell a load of lies, because they'd soon find out, the way they interrogate you. They aren't aircrew themselves, they're ground crew, and really, really trained for that job of sorting out the truth from the shooting a line business.
BW: And so when you landed, how soon after landing would you be debriefed?
WG: Straight away. You'd be taken in transport straight away. You wouldn't even speak to your ground crew, be allowed to speak to your ground crew. The, er, as soon as you landed, the first people you spoke to were the ground crew, the ground crew, er, oh dear, questioning you, interrogating you [pause].
BW: And were you debriefed as a crew together? Or were you debriefed individually?
WG: You were all put in the debriefing room, and each aircrew department were briefed by their own people. And then you were together briefed as a crew. And it was there to make sure there was no line-shooting, you know. Well, I suppose it was, that's what it was done for. They could easily say, well you're telling us this story, but your mate is telling us this story. That sort of idea, you know.
BW: By line-shooting, you mean telling them something inaccurate.
WG: Telling lies. Yes, telling lies and lies that could never happen, you know. You were boosting up your bravery perhaps, I suppose. If that's the word, yes. I don't know if you could say that many of us were brave. It was just one of those things. You'd volunteered to do it and you were there, so you'd got to do it, but I don't think that I looked upon it as bravery, I looked upon it as being a bloody idiot for being there [laughs].
BW: What I'd just like to do now, is just to show you a list of the crew, and you've talked about Ron Clarke, and there's your name at the bottom, this is when you were on 100 Squadron.
WG: Oh yeah. That's right.
BW: Yeah? And there's one or two other names you've briefly mentioned. Are there any particular instances or things you would remember about each of those men that you flew with?
WG: There's Ron Clarke. I think Clarke got a second DFC, but I'm not sure. Bennett got a DFM, that's right. Flight Engineer. Sidell, Jim Sidell. Well, Jim Sidell was killed, the navigator, so he got nothing. Wheeler, the bomb aimer, didn't get anything. Easby, the wireless operator, didn't get anything. Simpson didn't get anything. And then there's myself, yes. No, that was the crew. And er, what was the question, what did you ask me?
BW: Do you remember anything other about the other members of the crew, anything else about them? What sort of chaps they were?
WG: No, we didn't. I don't remember any of us really teaming up when we weren't flying, and going out together. We used to sort of go on our todd, so if we got up to something we didn't want too many people to know [laughs]. Which was my idea, anyway. I don't know about Clarke, But no, Clarke didn't, he’d be doing something. He'd be studying, I expect. He was a studing type [unclear]. Easby's very ill now. I don't know if he's still living. I intend to phone up and speak to his wife, but-
BW: Do you know if Harry Bennett is still alive?
WG: Bennett, Bennett. Where's Bennett's name here? Bennett, yes, Flight Engineer. No I don't actually. I don't even know, I don't even know where Bennett came from.
BW: I believe he came from Preston. In Lancashire.
WG: Now that's a point, yes. Somewhere up North. Yes, he was a north country chap. The Flight Engineer. He was a good bloke. He could, if something went wrong, he would get out of his seat up front, next door to the pilot, and walk down the aircraft with his tool kit, and if anything was wrong, and he could do something there, he would stay down there and mend it, and do all that sort of thing. He was a very brave bloke [coughs].
BW: Do you recall how he got his DFM?
WG: Who?
BW: Bennett.
WG: Bennett. No, no I can't. No.
BW: There's a description that when you were over Mannheim one night, and because you were heavily hit by the flak, it severed the flying controls to the ailerons.
WG: Oh yes, so it did.
BW: And there was a lot of vibration going through the flying controls, which meant the pilot couldn't handle the aircraft properly.
WG: That's right. That's it.
BW: And the story goes that Bennett took out his penknife, and bearing in mind you were probably at five thousand feet at night over Germany and France at the time, apparently he took out his penknife and severed the starboard trim control cables.
WG: That's right, he trimmed the controls, that's right. I don't know if it was his penknife, but he did sever controls, yes, which steadied the aircraft, and it was, well everybody was, we all were scared when this, when the aircraft was really shaking, you know. And then it suddenly stopped, and after, we realised that dear old Bennett had done that. He'd gone down and put his, put his breathing apparatus thing on, and stopped the vibrating.
BW: That's quite a thing to have done.
WG: Well, yes.
BW: Firstly, to know what to do, and then to be able to see it and cut it.
WG: Yes, yes. Yes. It doesn't say anything there, but I think Bennett was decorated as well. There were, there were, there were three of us decorated to my knowledge, I think he could have been the fourth one, but I'm not really sure. But three of us were decorated, and as I say, I think he was the fourth one, but actually, getting down and stopping the vibration, which it was thought could have prevented the aircraft being flown properly [coughs] or safely. Safely was the word, not properly. Same thing.
BW: And the other description that I just wanted to read on the back of the log book that you've got here; on the tenth of January nineteen forty five there's a description in here from a Squadron Leader, which looks like a Flight Commander of 626, in relation to your proficiency and assessment says, 'this', oh.
WG: This officer?
BW: 'This officer [pause] that knows his job, which he does well, this officer that knows his job, which he does well, put up a splendid show whilst on this', I can't make out the last word, but it says underneath, 'awarded the DFC'. Does that description-
WG: Which bit? Oh, 'whilst on the squadron'. Whilst on the squadron, yes. What does it say there, then?
BW: It says, 'Our officer, that knows his job, which he does well, puts up a splendid show whilst on this squadron. Awarded DFC'.
WG: Oh, I see. Yes.
BW: That would be your second one.
WG: That's right, yes.
[Pause}
Laura: You’ve not drunk your tea, Pops.
WG: Pardon?
Laura: Your tea
WG: Pardon?
Laura: Your cup of tea?
WG: Oh yes, my cup of tea. Oh there's a cup of tea, look.
BW: From these tours, then, what happened after, towards the end.
WG: Sorry?
BW: From, after completing these two tours, or three tours, because you completed a hundred operations, didn't you?
WG: Yes, I think so. Something like that. Yeah, well two and a half tours.
BW: And what happened after that? When you, when the war ended, and you stayed in service, but you went out to India and the Far East.
WG: Oh yes, I did, yes, Yes, I went out to, I went out to Delhi, and Calcutta, and Bangalore. Erm. I wasn't instructing. I can't think what I was doing. I wasn't lecturing. Well, I was lecturing in Bangalore, but not for very long. I asked to be taken off because I wasn't any good at it. I was, you know, if the blokes you were instructing weren't sort of, didn't cotton on, I used to get bad tempered, so it was no good [long pause]. Yes, looking back, they were good days. When you're there, they're not, really. You wonder, why did I do it? [pause]
BW: And when the war ended, and you'd been in India, what then happened? You came back and you left the Air Force at some stage, did you?
WG: Yes. I came back from India. I was, where was I, I think I was in Calcutta then. Oh yes, that's what annoyed me, was that when I went out there, I flew out there and was there a fortnight, and when I came back, I didn't come back quickly in an aircraft, I came back on a boat, and that took about three to four weeks to get back to the country, which I thought was rather bad. Because they flew me out there quickly, and then it took a long time to get me back home.
BW: They wanted you out there quickly, but didn't want you back home so fast [chuckles]. And did you come home to get married, and raise a family after that?
WG: Yes, I came home and, I don't know, yes, I came home, what did I do [pause], I don't know where I met Betty. Oh, we met, yes, I was with a group of blokes somewhere, and we saw a group of WAAFs, and we teamed up with these WAAFs, and I went off with mine. I don't know what happened to the others, but I never met them again, but I went off. I forget where we went, and we stayed together for some time. She was , she was a plotter. She used to plot enemy aircraft, and that sort of thing. In Bomber Command. And, I went to Bomber Command for a while, and asked to be taken away, but until then, that was where we met each other [Pause].
BW: And when did you get married?
WG: That's a point [pause].
BW: Was it soon after the war? Or was it a few years after?
WG: No, the war was still on, I think. Is my log book here? Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. I don't know if it tells me in here. I don't know, I must, I don't know when I got married [pause and paper rustling]. 'Slightly above average', and, 'above average'. That's slightly above. No, I don't know. [More paper rustling]. What was I looking for? 'Screen, after twenty sorties, second tour.'
Laura: Pops. I think you got married on the thirteenth of April, it was a Friday, and I think it was nineteen forty five. Would it be?
WG: Oh, nineteen forty five.
Laura: I think. It was forty four or forty five, I think. Before you went to India.
WG: Oh, that's right, before I went to India, wasn't it.
Laura: Yes
WG: Yes [pause]. November forty four, Bokum. Oh yes. Oh, I don't know [pause].
BW: When you left the service, what did you go on to do then?
WG; Well I, er, before the war I joined the firm that my father was the secretary for, at Kings Lynn. A timber importing firm, Patrick and Thompson’s. And I was going out to, I was going out to India. We had a branch in India. In, where was it, Bangalore, no, not Bangalore, oh I don't remember now. And I don't quite know what I did. I didn't do what I expected to do, or what they said I was going to do and I think that the way the war was going, it was felt that soon it going to end, so it was a pretty cushy time for us all. Because we weren't, there wasn't very much to do really, and I didn't know whether to stay in or not, and I wasn't keen on going back to my father, to the firm where my father was, so I stayed in. And I was going to get, I hadn't got a permanent commission then. I was on, not a part-time commission, I forget what the word was for it, but it wasn't a regular commission, and I thought, well, if I'm going to stay in the service, I must get a regular commission, or else they can get me out any time. But with a regular commission, provided I'm playing it straight, I haven't got to bother about a job, because I'd got a job. And it was quite well paid. I was a Flight Lieutenant then. And when I went to Bangalore, I was promoted to Squadron Leader, and then when I came back, when I came back, I was demoted to my previous regular engagement commission. It wasn’t an active one. But then I decided that with how things were going, I wasn't very keen. I was getting into spots of bother, and that sort of thing. I was made a personal assistant to an Air Vice Marshall, which was a bit of a bind because you're always on duty, you know. You could suddenly be in bed, and your batman would come in, and give you a shake, and say,' the old man wants you’, and you could get up at any time of the day. Yes, at any time of the day and night. Because if you'd been flying at night, you'd be asleep during the day, and you'd have to go down to see what he wanted, and all that sort of thing. And his wife would, many times when I was in their house, she would come in and say, 'Geoffrey, just nip down to the butchers will you, and get so and so’, that sort of thing, you know. That wasn't my cup of tea, really, not what I'd joined to do [laughs]. Walking back with strings of sausages round me neck [laughs].
BW: Well, I think you've been very open, and it's been a great pleasure to listen to you, sir, and to all your experiences, so I want to thank you on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre for doing that, and it's probably an appropriate place to leave your reminiscences, with a string of sausages round your neck [laughs]
WG: Thank you very much indeed.
BW: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Geoff Green
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AGreenWG150911
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:34:43 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
William Green was born in Kings Lynn in Norfolk and joined the Royal Air Force at the outbreak of war, when he was 17 and a half, becoming a rear gunner on Lancasters and eventually rising to the rank of squadron leader. He tells about going to help form 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern and his training for rear gunner, which included some navigation and aircraft recognition. William tells of how he was sent on an instructor course to train new recruits however he admits he did not have the temperament to do this for very long. In 1944 he was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross for shooting down the first Me 262 aircraft, whilst coming home from an operation to Mannheim. It was the first confirmed shooting down of this particular aircraft and it was during a night operation. William tells about a particularly bad operation to Mannheim, when he helped with a badly injured bomb aimer, being coned by searchlights and coping with anti-aircraft fire. He also recalls a flight where the aircraft was hit and flying controls to the ailerons were severed, meaning the pilot had trouble controlling the aircraft. The flight engineer picked up a toolbox and acted on the starboard trim control cables with a penknife, allowing the pilot to land. William completed two full tours with Bomber Command, flying over 100 operations, including 55 bombing operations on Germany alone, and his aircraft was nicknamed ‘Phantom of the Ruhr’. He tells the story of how he helped with the painting of the nose art. Towards the end of war, William was in India with Transport Command, particularly in Delhi and Calcutta.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Vivienne Tincombe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Mannheim
India
India--Kolkata
India--New Delhi
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
100 Squadron
1656 HCU
28 OTU
625 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
coping mechanism
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Me 109
Me 262
military service conditions
nose art
Operational Training Unit
operations room
pilot
RAF Kelstern
searchlight
superstition
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1279/17438/LPearceAT1874945v1.2.pdf
e35e6116419f7eb8f03d67b018b5f883
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pearce, Arthur
A T Pearce
Description
An account of the resource
140 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Arthur Pearce (1874945 Royal Air Force) He served as an air gunner with 12, 170 and 156 (Pathfinder) Squadrons and completed a 44 operations. After the war, on 35 Squadron he took part in the June 1946 Victory flypast over London and a goodwill visit to the United States. It contains his diaries, memorabilia and photographs.
The collection also contains an album concerning his post war activity with the Goodwill tour of the United States.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Steve Allan and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pearce, AT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Arthur Pearce's air gunners flying log book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LPearceAT1874945v1
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Air gunners' flying log book for A T Pearce, covering the period from 2 December 1943 to 25 November 1946. It details his flying training, operations flown and post war flying. Arthur Pearce was stationed at: RAF Bishops Court, RAF Seighford, RAF Hixon, RAF Ingham, RAF Blyton, RAF Hemswell, RAF Wickenby, RAF Kelstern, RAF Dunholme Lodge, RAF Warboys, RAF Upwood, RAF Wyton, RAF Graveley and RAF Stradishall. Aircraft flown in were: Anson, Wellington, Halifax, Lancaster and Packet. He flew a total of 45 operations, 7 Daylight and 5 Night-time operations with 12 Squadron, 2 daylight and 4 night-time operations with 170 Squadron and 4 daylight, 23 night-time operations, operations Manna and Dodge with 156 Squadron. Post war Pearce flew a goodwill tour of the USA with 35 Squadron. Targets were: Falaise, Russelsheim, Stettin, Eindhoven, Le Havre, Frankfurt, Rheine Hopsten, Calais, Neuss, Cap Griz-Nez, Essen, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Duisberg, Urft Dam, Soeste, Bonn, Opladen, Osterfeld, Magdeburg, Hamborn, Dortmund, Pforzheim, Mannheim, Chemnitz, Dessau, Misburg, Nurenburg, Hanau, Lutzkendorf, Hamburg, Kiel, Plauen, Berlin, Schwandorf, Heligoland, Wangerooge and Rotterdam. His pilots on operations were Flying Officer and Flight Lieutenant Keeler.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
United States
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Suffolk
France--Calais
France--Falaise
France--Le Havre
France--Pas-de-Calais
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dessau (Dessau)
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Euskirchen Region
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Hannover Region
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Mücheln (Wettin)
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Osterfeld
Germany--Pforzheim
Germany--Plauen
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Schwandorf (Landkreis)
Germany--Soest
Netherlands--Eindhoven
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Northern Ireland--Down (County)
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Wangerooge Island
Germany--Urft Dam
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943
1944
1945
1946
1944-08-13
1944-08-14
1944-08-25
1944-08-26
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-09-03
1944-09-05
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-20
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-10-19
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-10-31
1944-11-01
1944-11-02
1944-11-03
1944-11-29
1944-11-30
1944-12-03
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-21
1944-12-28
1944-12-30
1944-12-31
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-22
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-02-23
1945-02-24
1945-03-01
1945-03-05
1945-03-06
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-03-19
1945-04-04
1945-04-05
1945-04-08
1945-04-09
1945-04-10
1945-04-11
1945-04-13
1945-04-14
1945-04-15
1945-04-17
1945-04-25
1945-06-02
1945-07-13
1945-08-13
1945-08-15
1945-09-25
1945-09-26
1946-01-02
1946-01-03
12 Squadron
156 Squadron
1662 HCU
170 Squadron
30 OTU
35 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
Goodwill tour of the United States (1946)
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Blyton
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bridlington
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Graveley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hixon
RAF Ingham
RAF Kelstern
RAF Seighford
RAF Stradishall
RAF Upwood
RAF Warboys
RAF Wickenby
RAF Wyton
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/556/22043/LSimpsonF2203970v1.2.pdf
3ddec0b03f0dcdfb4570a96e7ad06086
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Simpson, Frank
F Simpson
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Simpson, F
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Frank Simpson (1924 - 2019, 2203970 Royal Air Force) his log book, service and release book and photographs. He flew operations as a mid-upper gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Simpson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Frank Simpson was born in Manchester and volunteered for the RAF. After training as an Air Gunner in Wellington’s, he transferred to Lancasters and then was posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, Lincolnshire. Flying as a Mid/Upper Gunner on several operations including Kiel, 9 April 1945, during which the German Heavy Cruisers Admiral Scheer was sunk and Admiral Hipper damaged. Over Potsdam, 14 April 1945. his aircraft was caught in a searchlight for seven minutes. Frank also took several flights over Holland as part of Operation Manna. Leaving the RAF as a Sergeant and starting as an electrician.
Andrew St. Denis
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Frank Simpson's flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners, flight engineers
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners, flight engineers for F Simpson, air gunner, covering the period from 5 July 1944 to 20 May 1945. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Stormy Down, RAF Husbands Bosworth, RAF Sandtoft and RAF Kelstern. Aircraft flown in were, Anson, Wellington and Lancaster. He flew a total of 11 operation with 625 squadron, 4 daylight and 7-night operations. He also flew 5 operation Manna. Targets were, Misburg, Nuremburg, Hannau, Brochstrasse, Bremen, Hannover, Hamburg, Nordhausen, Keil, Plauen, Potsdam, The Hague, Rotterdam and Gouda. His pilots on operations were Flying Officer Benson and Flying Officer Ollis.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LSimpsonF2203970v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Braunschweig
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Hannover Region
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Plauen
Germany--Potsdam
Netherlands--Gouda
Netherlands--Hague
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Wales--Bridgend
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-03-18
1945-03-19
1945-03-21
1945-03-22
1945-03-23
1945-03-25
1945-03-31
1945-04-03
1945-04-09
1945-04-10
1945-04-11
1945-04-14
1945-04-15
1945-04-29
1945-04-30
1945-05-03
1945-05-04
1945-05-07
1945-05-08
1667 HCU
625 Squadron
85 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Husbands Bosworth
RAF Kelstern
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Stormy Down
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1376/23939/MFordTA1585520-170411-050001.2.jpg
f1e652f70ae895a3d9b1358ced9ce1bf
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1376/23939/MFordTA1585520-170411-050002.2.jpg
95c2f7861babde9765a43f0ed947eed9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ford, Terry
Ford, T
Description
An account of the resource
135 items. The collection concerns Terry Ford. He flew operations as a pilot with 75 Squadron. It contains photographs, his log book, operational maps, letters home during training, and documents including emergency drills. There are two albums of photographs, one of navigation logs, and another of target photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Julia Burke and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ford, T
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Westkapelle, October 3, 1944
Description
An account of the resource
A battle order for the attack on Westkapelle, Vlissingen. It covers the fighter support, Pathfinders and the bomber squadrons and bases involved.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-10-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two typewritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Service material
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MFordTA1585520-170411-050001,
MFordTA1585520-170411-050002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Netherlands
Netherlands--Vlissingen
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10-03
1 Group
100 Squadron
101 Squadron
103 Squadron
105 Squadron
109 Squadron
115 Squadron
12 Squadron
149 Squadron
15 Squadron
166 Squadron
218 Squadron
3 Group
300 Squadron
460 Squadron
514 Squadron
550 Squadron
576 Squadron
582 Squadron
617 Squadron
622 Squadron
625 Squadron
626 Squadron
75 Squadron
90 Squadron
bombing
Lancaster
Mosquito
Pathfinders
RAF Binbrook
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Grimsby
RAF Kelstern
RAF Kirmington
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Mepal
RAF Methwold
RAF Mildenhall
RAF North Killingholme
RAF Tuddenham
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wickenby
RAF Witchford
RAF Woodhall Spa
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/565/26597/LEvansDC2207080v1.2.pdf
982963a4c8166470a5c58eae718b4650
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Evans, Derek Carrington
D C Evans
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Evans, DC
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Derek Carrington Evans (1924 - 2017, 2207080 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 625 Squadron. Also contains photographs of model Lancaster and people.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Derek Carrington Evans and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Derek Carrington Evans' navigator’s, air bomber’s and air gunner’s flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
Wireless Operator/Air Gunners flying log book covering the period from 8 October 1943 to April 1953. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Yatesbury (2 Radio School), RAF Evanton (8 AGS), RAF Wigtown (1(Observer’s) AFU), RAF Finningley (18 OTU), RAF Blyton (1662 HCU), RAF Hemswell (1 LFS), RAF Kelstern & RAF Scampton (625 Squadron), RAF Doncaster (9 RFS). Aircraft flown in were Dominie, Anson, Wellington, Halifax, Lancaster. He flew a total of 14 night-time and 5 daylight bomber operations (total 19) plus two Operation Manna “spam dropping” flights and one Cook’s Tour flight with 625 Squadron, targets were Essen, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Bochum, Dortmund, Bonn, Zeitz, Mannheim, Bottrup, Geilenkirchen, Wanne Eichel, St Vith, Rheydt, Heligoland and Neuss. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Treherne, Squadron Leader Russell and Flying Officer Bailey. From 1951 to 1953 he flew as RAFVR with 9 Reserve Flying School.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Terry Hancock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LEvansDC2207080v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
1951
1952
1953
1944-08-09
1944-09-23
1944-09-30
1944-10-01
1944-11-02
1944-11-04
1944-11-06
1944-11-09
1944-11-11
1944-11-16
1944-11-18
1944-11-29
1944-12-21
1944-12-26
1944-12-27
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-02-01
1945-02-03
1945-02-09
1945-02-10
1945-02-28
1945-03-01
1945-03-12
1945-03-19
1945-04-18
1945-04-29
1945-05-05
1945-06-01
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Germany
Great Britain
Belgium--Saint-Vith
England--Lincolnshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Geilenkirchen
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Rheydt
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Zeitz
Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway
Scotland--Ross and Cromarty
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
1662 HCU
18 OTU
625 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
Dominie
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Blyton
RAF Evanton
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Scampton
RAF Wigtown
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1539/29120/PAllnuttFJ1628.2.jpg
4cebb716f2927917f633603aec88f7d0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allnutt, Frank John
F J Allnutt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allnutt, FJ
Description
An account of the resource
32 items. The collection concerns Frank Allnutt (436745 Royal Australian Air Force) and contains his log book and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frank Allnutt and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flight Sergeant Ralf Williams
Description
An account of the resource
Navigator F R Williams in flying gear, seated at a his station writing in his log on the way to Essen October 1944.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PAllnuttFJ1628
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
625 Squadron
aircrew
Lancaster
military service conditions
navigator
RAF Kelstern
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1539/29121/PAllnuttFJ1627.2.jpg
e379322aff6381527f6c47e5aedbd86e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allnutt, Frank John
F J Allnutt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allnutt, FJ
Description
An account of the resource
32 items. The collection concerns Frank Allnutt (436745 Royal Australian Air Force) and contains his log book and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frank Allnutt and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pilot Flying Officer John Harvey
Description
An account of the resource
Pilot leaning out of the cockpit window of their Lancaster, there is a cartoon wallaby painted below the window and 22 operations recorded. The aircraft was called 'Wee Wally Wallaby' as it's squadron letter was W. The pilot is their captain John Harvey, photograph taken just before operation number 23, a daylight to Essen on 25 October 1944.
Additional information about this item has been kindly provided by the donor.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-10-25
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PAllnuttFJ1627
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-10-25
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
625 Squadron
aircrew
Lancaster
nose art
pilot
RAF Kelstern