1
25
25
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1279/17559/VPearceAT[Date]-0002.mp4
6f636b0ba575d05cddfc4c9e8116051e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pearce, Arthur
A T Pearce
Description
An account of the resource
140 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Arthur Pearce (1874945 Royal Air Force) He served as an air gunner with 12, 170 and 156 (Pathfinder) Squadrons and completed a 44 operations. After the war, on 35 Squadron he took part in the June 1946 Victory flypast over London and a goodwill visit to the United States. It contains his diaries, memorabilia and photographs.
The collection also contains an album concerning his post war activity with the Goodwill tour of the United States.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Steve Allan and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pearce, AT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Air to air gunnery film
Description
An account of the resource
Headed 'Sgt Pearce, 23.6.44, Ex 1, Course 99B'. Air-to-air gunnery film with Miles Martinet target aircraft. Taken from Wellington from RAF Ingham.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-06-23
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w film
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
VPearceAT[Date]-0002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
air gunner
aircrew
Martinet
RAF Ingham
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1279/17560/VPearceAT[Date]-0003.mp4
8b498b6a5ee6cf2475cc96201ebffb99
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pearce, Arthur
A T Pearce
Description
An account of the resource
140 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Arthur Pearce (1874945 Royal Air Force) He served as an air gunner with 12, 170 and 156 (Pathfinder) Squadrons and completed a 44 operations. After the war, on 35 Squadron he took part in the June 1946 Victory flypast over London and a goodwill visit to the United States. It contains his diaries, memorabilia and photographs.
The collection also contains an album concerning his post war activity with the Goodwill tour of the United States.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Steve Allan and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pearce, AT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Air-to-air gunnery film
Description
An account of the resource
Headed 'Sgt Pearce, 24.6.44, Ex 2, Course 99B'. Air-to-air gunnery film with Miles Martinet target aircraft. Taken from Wellington from RAF Ingham.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-06-24
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-24
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w film
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
VPearceAT[Date]-0003
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
air gunner
aircrew
RAF Ingham
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1279/17438/LPearceAT1874945v1.2.pdf
e35e6116419f7eb8f03d67b018b5f883
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pearce, Arthur
A T Pearce
Description
An account of the resource
140 items. The collection concerns Warrant Officer Arthur Pearce (1874945 Royal Air Force) He served as an air gunner with 12, 170 and 156 (Pathfinder) Squadrons and completed a 44 operations. After the war, on 35 Squadron he took part in the June 1946 Victory flypast over London and a goodwill visit to the United States. It contains his diaries, memorabilia and photographs.
The collection also contains an album concerning his post war activity with the Goodwill tour of the United States.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Steve Allan and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pearce, AT
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Arthur Pearce's air gunners flying log book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LPearceAT1874945v1
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Air gunners' flying log book for A T Pearce, covering the period from 2 December 1943 to 25 November 1946. It details his flying training, operations flown and post war flying. Arthur Pearce was stationed at: RAF Bishops Court, RAF Seighford, RAF Hixon, RAF Ingham, RAF Blyton, RAF Hemswell, RAF Wickenby, RAF Kelstern, RAF Dunholme Lodge, RAF Warboys, RAF Upwood, RAF Wyton, RAF Graveley and RAF Stradishall. Aircraft flown in were: Anson, Wellington, Halifax, Lancaster and Packet. He flew a total of 45 operations, 7 Daylight and 5 Night-time operations with 12 Squadron, 2 daylight and 4 night-time operations with 170 Squadron and 4 daylight, 23 night-time operations, operations Manna and Dodge with 156 Squadron. Post war Pearce flew a goodwill tour of the USA with 35 Squadron. Targets were: Falaise, Russelsheim, Stettin, Eindhoven, Le Havre, Frankfurt, Rheine Hopsten, Calais, Neuss, Cap Griz-Nez, Essen, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Duisberg, Urft Dam, Soeste, Bonn, Opladen, Osterfeld, Magdeburg, Hamborn, Dortmund, Pforzheim, Mannheim, Chemnitz, Dessau, Misburg, Nurenburg, Hanau, Lutzkendorf, Hamburg, Kiel, Plauen, Berlin, Schwandorf, Heligoland, Wangerooge and Rotterdam. His pilots on operations were Flying Officer and Flight Lieutenant Keeler.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Poland
United States
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Suffolk
France--Calais
France--Falaise
France--Le Havre
France--Pas-de-Calais
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Bonn
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dessau (Dessau)
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Euskirchen Region
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hanau
Germany--Hannover Region
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Mücheln (Wettin)
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Osterfeld
Germany--Pforzheim
Germany--Plauen
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Schwandorf (Landkreis)
Germany--Soest
Netherlands--Eindhoven
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Northern Ireland--Down (County)
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Leverkusen
Germany--Wangerooge Island
Germany--Urft Dam
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
1946
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943
1944
1945
1946
1944-08-13
1944-08-14
1944-08-25
1944-08-26
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-09-03
1944-09-05
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-16
1944-09-17
1944-09-20
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-10-19
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-30
1944-10-31
1944-11-01
1944-11-02
1944-11-03
1944-11-29
1944-11-30
1944-12-03
1944-12-05
1944-12-06
1944-12-21
1944-12-28
1944-12-30
1944-12-31
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-22
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-02-23
1945-02-24
1945-03-01
1945-03-05
1945-03-06
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-03-19
1945-04-04
1945-04-05
1945-04-08
1945-04-09
1945-04-10
1945-04-11
1945-04-13
1945-04-14
1945-04-15
1945-04-17
1945-04-25
1945-06-02
1945-07-13
1945-08-13
1945-08-15
1945-09-25
1945-09-26
1946-01-02
1946-01-03
12 Squadron
156 Squadron
1662 HCU
170 Squadron
30 OTU
35 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
Goodwill tour of the United States (1946)
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Blyton
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bridlington
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Graveley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hixon
RAF Ingham
RAF Kelstern
RAF Seighford
RAF Stradishall
RAF Upwood
RAF Warboys
RAF Wickenby
RAF Wyton
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/81/7914/LGodfreyCR1281391v10001.2.pdf
2bb4feee369606f050f7e0e0563b6922
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Godfrey, Charles Randall
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
64 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Charles Randall Godfrey DFC (b. 1921, 146099, Royal Air Force) and consists of his logbook and operational notes, items of memorabilia, association memberships, personnel documentation, medals and photographs. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron. He flew as a wireless operator in the crew of Squadron Leader Ian Willoughby Bazalgette VC.
The collection has has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Charles Godfrey and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Godfrey, CR
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-18
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Charles Godfey's observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LGodfreyCR1281391v10001
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Egypt
France
Libya
Greece
Germany
Gibraltar
Great Britain
Netherlands
Scotland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Belgium--Haine-Saint-Pierre
Egypt--Alexandria
Egypt--Cairo
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
Egypt--Marsá Maṭrūḥ
Egypt--Tall al-Ḍabʻah
England--Berkshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cumbria
England--Devon
England--Gloucestershire
England--Hampshire
England--Kent
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Norfolk
England--Northumberland
England--Oxfordshire
England--Rutland
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
England--Wiltshire
England--Worcestershire
England--Yorkshire
France--Angers
France--Caen
France--Creil
France--Mantes-la-Jolie
France--Nucourt
France--Rennes
Germany--Wiesbaden
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Germany--Bottrop
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dorsten
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düren (Cologne)
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Osterfeld
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Troisdorf
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Wesseling
Greece--Ērakleion
Greece--Piraeus
Libya--Darnah
Libya--Tobruk
Netherlands--Hasselt
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Scotland--Moray
Germany--Münster in Westfalen
England--Cornwall (County)
North Africa
Libya--Banghāzī
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Libya--Gazala
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1942-03-23
1942-06-10
1942-06-11
1942-06-12
1942-06-13
1942-06-14
1942-06-15
1942-06-16
1942-06-17
1942-06-18
1942-06-19
1942-06-20
1942-06-22
1942-06-23
1942-06-24
1942-06-25
1942-06-26
1942-06-28
1942-06-29
1942-07-02
1942-07-03
1942-07-05
1942-07-08
1942-07-09
1942-07-10
1942-07-12
1942-07-13
1942-07-15
1942-07-16
1942-07-17
1942-07-19
1942-07-20
1942-07-25
1942-07-26
1942-07-28
1942-07-29
1942-07-31
1942-08-01
1942-08-06
1942-08-07
1942-08-08
1942-08-09
1942-08-14
1942-08-15
1942-08-16
1942-08-17
1942-08-18
1942-08-19
1942-08-21
1942-08-22
1942-08-23
1942-08-24
1942-08-25
1942-08-26
1942-08-27
1942-08-28
1942-08-29
1942-08-30
1942-08-31
1942-09-01
1942-09-03
1942-09-05
1942-09-06
1942-09-08
1942-09-09
1944-05-06
1944-05-08
1944-05-12
1944-05-13
1944-05-27
1944-05-28
1944-05-29
1944-06-05
1944-06-07
1944-06-08
1944-06-09
1944-06-12
1944-06-13
1944-06-15
1944-06-16
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-07-07
1944-07-09
1944-07-10
1944-07-14
1944-07-15
1944-07-16
1944-07-18
1944-07-19
1944-07-20
1944-07-23
1944-07-24
1944-07-25
1944-07-26
1944-07-28
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-08-01
1944-08-04
1944-11-17
1944-11-18
1944-12-04
1944-12-06
1944-12-07
1944-12-12
1944-12-15
1944-12-18
1944-12-24
1944-12-28
1944-12-29
1945-01-01
1945-01-02
1945-01-05
1945-01-07
1945-01-08
1945-01-23
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-04
1945-02-07
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-18
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-03-07
1945-03-08
1945-03-22
1945-03-24
1945-03-25
1945-03-31
1945-04-11
1945-04-13
1945-04-14
1945-04-25
1945-04-30
1945-05-05
1945-05-07
1945-05-15
1945-05-22
1945-06-08
1945-06-18
1945-08-03
1945-08-05
1944-06-06
1944-08-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Pilot Officer Godfrey from 3 of February 1941 to 25 of September 1945 detailing training schedule, instructional duties and operations flown. Aircraft flown were Dominie, Proctor, Wellington, Hampden, Anson, Defiant, Martinet, Stirling, Lancaster, C-47 and Oxford. He was stationed at RAF Manby, RAF Bassingbourn, RAF Harwell, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Downham Market, RAF Hemswell, RAF Wittering, RAF Abingdon, RAF Upper- Heyford, RAF Upwood, RAF Gillingham, RAF Cranwell, RAF Melton Mowbray, RAF Church Fenton, RAF Market Drayton, RAF Waddington, RAF Upavon, RAF Sywell, RAF Carlisle, RAF Linton-On-Ouse, RAF Newbury, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Brize Norton, RAF Exeter, RAF Andover, RAF Hampstead Norris, RAF Hythe, RAF Gibraltar, RAF St Eval, RAF El Dabba, RAF Shaluffa, RAF Abu Sueir, RAF Almaza, RAF Blyton, RAF Ingham, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Leeming, RAF Acklington, RAF Middleton St. George, RAF Newmarket, RAF Moreton-in-Marsh, RAF Leconfield, RAF Skipton-on-Swale, RAF Wyton, RAF Warboys, RAF Westcott, RAF Gravely and RAF Worcester. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron to targets in Belgium, France and Germany. Targets included: Heraklion, Piraeus, Derna, Tamimi, Benghazi Harbour, Gazala, Mersa Matruh, Ras El Shaqiq, El Daba, Tobruk, Fuqa, Quatafiya, Düren, Munster, Mantes- Gassicourt rail yards, Haine St. Pierre rail yards, Hasselt rail yards, Rennes, Angers rail yards, Caen, Ravigny rail yards, Nucourt, Wesseling oil refineries, L’Hey, Kiel, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Notre Dame, Trossy St. Maximin, Karlsruhe, Merseburg, Essen, Ludwigshafen, Duisburg, Dusseldorf, Mönchengladbach, Troisdorf, Dortmund, Nuremberg, Hannover, Munich, Gelsenkirchen, Mainz, Wiesbaden, Osterfeld, Kleve, Wanne- Eickel, Chemnitz, Wesel, Worms, Hemmingstedt, Dorsten, Bottrop, Osnabruck, Berchtesgaden, Ypenburg and Rotterdam. Notable events are that Charles Godfrey undertook a search and rescue operation in a Defiant and during the operation to Trossy St Maximin 4 August 1944 his aircraft, Lancaster ND811, was brought down by anti-aircraft fire. Whilst he survived and evaded, his pilot, Ian Willoughby Bazalgette was awarded the Posthumous Victoria Cross. The hand written notes added to the end of the log book give a description to the crash, and his attempts to evade capture. Pilot Officer Godfrey also took part in Operation Manna, Operation Exodus and Operation Dodge.
11 OTU
15 OTU
20 OTU
37 Squadron
635 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Bombing of Trossy St Maximin (3 August 1944)
C-47
Cook’s tour
Defiant
Dominie
evading
Hampden
killed in action
Lancaster
Martinet
missing in action
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
Proctor
RAF Abingdon
RAF Andover
RAF Bassingbourn
RAF Blyton
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Carlisle
RAF Church Fenton
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Cranwell
RAF Downham Market
RAF Graveley
RAF Hampstead Norris
RAF Harwell
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF Leconfield
RAF Leeming
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Manby
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Melton Mowbray
RAF Middleton St George
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Newmarket
RAF Skipton on Swale
RAF St Eval
RAF Sywell
RAF Upavon
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Upwood
RAF Waddington
RAF Warboys
RAF Westcott
RAF Wittering
RAF Wyton
shot down
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Victoria Cross
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1273/17685/LDrayFJ3033110v1.2.pdf
f9585e997b0beafe6d6e0d1204c9afd3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dray, F J
Description
An account of the resource
One item. F J Dray's log book. He flew a tour of operations as an air gunner with 576 Squadron from RAF Fiskerton.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Robert Dray and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dray, FJ
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
F Dray’s flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners, flight engineers
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners, flight engineers for F Dray, air gunner, covering the period from 23 March 1944 to 22 April 1945. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Bishops Court, RAF Hixon, RAF Ingham, RAF Sandtoft, RAF Hemswell and RAF Fiskerton. Aircraft flown in were, Anson, Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He flew a total of 30 operations with 576 squadron. Targets were, Merseburg, Essen, Ludwigshafen, Koblenz, Gelsenkirchen, Nuremberg, Royan, Munich, Duisburg, Stuttgart, Weisbaden, Politz, Dresden, Dortmund, Pforzheim, Kassel, Misburg, Hildesheim, Paderborn, Hamburg, Lutzkendorf, Keil, Plauen, Heligoland and Bremen. <span>His pilot on operations was</span><span> </span>Pilot Officer Carter.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LDrayFJ3033110v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
France--Royan
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover Region
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Hildesheim
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Koblenz
Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Munich
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Paderborn
Germany--Pforzheim
Germany--Plauen
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wiesbaden
Northern Ireland--Down (County)
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1944-12-06
1944-12-07
1944-12-12
1944-12-15
1944-12-22
1944-12-29
1944-12-30
1945-01-02
1945-01-03
1945-01-04
1945-01-07
1945-01-08
1945-01-22
1945-01-28
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-08
1945-02-09
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-02-22
1945-02-23
1945-02-24
1945-03-08
1945-03-09
1945-03-11
1945-03-12
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-03-22
1945-03-24
1945-03-27
1945-03-31
1945-04-04
1945-04-05
1945-04-09
1945-04-10
1945-04-11
1945-04-18
1945-04-22
1667 HCU
30 OTU
576 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hixon
RAF Ingham
RAF Sandtoft
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1539/29149/LAllnutFJ436745v1.1.pdf
b38457e125c7c5a301db977003f1ba74
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Allnutt, Frank John
F J Allnutt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Allnutt, FJ
Description
An account of the resource
32 items. The collection concerns Frank Allnutt (436745 Royal Australian Air Force) and contains his log book and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 625 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Frank Allnutt and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Frank J Allnutt’s RAAF observer’s air gunner’s and W/T operator’s flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
F J Allnutt’s RAAF Observer’s Air Gunner’s and W/T Operator’s Flying Log Book, from 22nd October 1943 to 27th November 1944, recording his training and operations as an air gunner. Aircraft in which flown: Battle, Oxford, Wellington X, Halifax II, Halifax V, Lancaster. He was stationed at RAAF Base West Sale (No. 3 Bombing and Air Gunnery School), RAF Lichfield (27 Operational Training Unit), RAF Ingham (1481 Bombing and Gunnery Flight), RAF Blyton (No. 1662 Conversion Unit), RAF Hemswell (No. 1 Lancaster Finishing School) and RAF Kelstern (625 Squadron). He completed a total of 31 operations (11 night, 20 day) on the following targets in France, Germany and Netherlands: Calais, Cologne, Domburg (recorded as “Bomburg”), Dortmund, Douai, Duisberg, Duren, Emmerich, Essen, Fontaine le Pin (Normandy battlefront), Fort Fredrik Hendrik, Freiburg, Le Havre, Neuss, <span>Œuf-en-Ternois</span>, Russelheim, Saarbrucken, Stettin, Stuttgart, Vincly, Volkel and Wanne Eickel, His pilot on operations was Flying officer Harvey. Also includes various comments on operations, including “Only kite to bomb aiming point” and “WIZARD PRANG”.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Log book and record book
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LAllnutFJ436745v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Australian Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
France--Calais
France--Douai
France--Le Havre
France--Normandy
France--Pas-de-Calais
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Düren (Cologne)
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Essen
Germany--Freiburg im Breisgau
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Germany--Saarbrücken
Poland--Szczecin
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Netherlands--Breskens
Netherlands--Domburg
Netherlands--North Brabant
Victoria--Sale
Poland
Victoria
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Œuf-en-Ternois
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1944-05-10
1944-05-11
1944-08-10
1944-08-11
1944-08-14
1944-08-15
1944-08-18
1944-08-25
1944-08-26
1944-08-29
1944-08-30
1944-09-06
1944-09-08
1944-09-10
1944-09-20
1944-09-23
1944-09-24
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-09-28
1944-10-05
1944-10-14
1944-10-15
1944-10-20
1944-10-21
1944-10-24
1944-10-25
1944-10-28
1944-10-29
1944-10-30
1944-11-09
1944-11-11
1944-11-12
1944-11-16
1944-11-18
1944-11-19
1944-11-27
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Leitch
1662 HCU
27 OTU
625 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Battle
bombing
Bombing and Gunnery School
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
Halifax
Halifax Mk 2
Halifax Mk 5
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
RAF Blyton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lichfield
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1839/33649/LDennisGC2204350v1.1.pdf
2d271c1a443edc0327e51da037e0169e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dennis, George Charles
G C Dennis
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-26
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Dennis, GC
Description
An account of the resource
31 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Charles Dennis (2204350 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book documents and photographs. He flew operations as an air gunner with 550 squadron and was killed 6 December 1944.<br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Lesley McMullin and catalogued by Barry Hunter.<br /><br /><span data-contrast="none" xml:lang="EN-GB" lang="EN-GB" class="TextRun SCXW198580359 BCX0"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW198580359 BCX0">Additional information on<span> George Dennis</span></span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW198580359 BCX0"><span> </span>is available via the</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW198580359 BCX0" data-ccp-props="{"201341983":0,"335559739":200,"335559740":276}"> <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/106084/">IBCC Losses Database.</a></span>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
George Dennis's flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners, flight engineers
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LDennisGC2204350v1
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners, flight engineers for G C Dennis, covering the period from 11 February 1944 to 6 December 1944 when he failed to return from operations. He was stationed at RAF Pembrey, RAF Peplow, RAF Ingham, RAF Blyton, RAF Hemswell, and RAF North Killingholme. Aircraft flown in were Anson, Wellington, Halifax, and Lancaster. He flew a total of 10 operations with 550 Squadron. Targets were Dusseldorf, Bochum, Gelsenkirchen, Wanne Eickel, Aschaffenburg, Freiburg, Dortmund, and Merseburg. His pilots on operations were Flight Lieutenant Shaw and Flight Lieutenant Morris.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-11-02
1944-11-03
1944-11-04
1944-11-05
1944-11-06
1944-11-09
1944-11-11
1944-11-12
1944-11-18
1944-11-19
1944-11-21
1944-11-22
1944-11-27
1944-11-28
1944-11-29
1944-12-03
1944-12-06
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
Germany--Aschaffenburg
Germany--Bochum
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Freiburg im Breisgau
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
1662 HCU
550 Squadron
83 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
killed in action
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operational Training Unit
RAF Blyton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF North Killingholme
RAF Pembrey
RAF Peplow
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/86/782/MBeltonSLS190305-151120-030001.2.jpg
268b82cc3c177108213bfb6f9ed04cfe
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/86/782/MBeltonSLS190305-151120-030002.2.jpg
1c6cce7ff93874a60628183e1bfd4219
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/86/782/MBeltonSLS190305-151120-030003.2.jpg
f97b0c77bd58255759005117a1dd5875
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Belton, Spencer Lewis
Spencer Lewis Belton
Spencer Lewis Smith Belton
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Belton, SLS
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Photographs, correspondence and newspaper clippings concerning Sergeant Spencer Lewis Belton (1919 - 1940, 581261 Royal Air Force). Spencer Lewis Belton flew as an observer/ bomb aimer with 144 Squadron from RAF Hemswell. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal after an operation to Wilhelmshaven in July 1940 and was interviewed about it by the British Broadcasting Corporation. He was killed 10/11 August 1940 when his Hampden P4368 crashed in the Netherlands, during an operation to Homberg. <br /><br />Additional information on Spencer Lewis Belton is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/101634/">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Denise Carr and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-20
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] R.A.F. Station Hemswell [/underlined]
This station was known as Harpswell in 1918 – 1919. The airfield was constructed in September, 1918, as a station designed to carry two training squadrons. No. 199 (Night) Training Squadron moved there from E. Retford on 26th June, 1918, under the command of Major J. O. C. Orton of the Norfolks.
No. 200 (Night) Training Squadron arrived at Harpswell, also from E. Retford, on 10th November, 1918, commanded by Major W. Collison. The station had no separate commanding officer, but came under the direct control of No. 48 Wing of the 6th Brigade.
Both these squadrons were training for night bombing and the machines used were F. E. 2 B’s. These were the pusher type with the propellor [sic] behind. The observer (or passenger) sat in front of the pilot in a small cockpit which projected out in front. Many of the pilots under training were from the Commonwealth, two of the three flight commanders on No. 199 Squadron being South Africans.
The Wing Headquarters was at Gainsborough and was commanded by Colonel Halahan until 1st October, 1918, when he was succeeded by Colonel Watson, a New Zealander. The Wing Adjutant was Captain John Milne, whose home is at 13, Stoneygate Avenue, Leicester. Captain Milne also served on No. 199 Squadron at Harpswell for a time.
R.A.F. Hemswell was opened on 29th December, 1936 as a bomber station in No. 3 Group with No. 61 [underlined] and No. 144 (Medium Bomber) Squadrons [/underlined] in competition. No. 61 was equipped first with Ansons and later Blenheims and No. 144 with Blenheims. The station was transferred to No. 5 Group on 1st September, 1937.
[inserted] red line [/inserted]
Both squadrons re-equipped with Hampden aircraft during the early part of 1939 and their first operational flight after the declaration of war was a search for enemy warships in the North Sea on 26th September. Bombing raids on targets in Germany began in May, 1940 together with minelaying in enemy waters. On 25th August both squadrons took part in the first raid on Berlin. This was followed by attacks on barge concentrations in enemy occupied ports in France and on submarine bases on the Atlantic seaboard. In 1941 there were attacks on warehouses and sheds at Kiel, on Cologne and on the “Scharnhorst” and “Gneisenau” at Brest.
On 18th July, 1941, Hemswell was transferred to No. 1 Group and No. 300 and No. 301 Polish Squadrons moved in with Wellingtons, and docks and harbour installations in Germany and Northern France were the objects of attack. There was also minelaying at intervals. No. 300 Squadron was the first Polish Squadron to be formed in Britain. Both these squadrons contributed to the biggest attack so far made by Bomber Command, that of over 1,000 bombers on Cologne on the night of the 30th/31st May, 1942. This was followed by another “1,000” bomber raid in which these two Polish Squadrons shared, that on Essen on the night of the 1st/2nd June.
No. 300Squadron moved to the satellite airfield at Ingham on 18th May and No. 305 (Polish) Squadron replaced it at the parent station at Hemswell. From this time until September, 1943, the three Polish Squadrons were operating from this Station and from the satellite at Ingham. Most of the targets known to Bomber Command were visited by these three Polish Squadrons from Hemswell. They went to Essen at the commencement of Bomber Command’s Battle of the Ruhr on 5th/6th March, 1943. On 24th/25th July, Wellingtons from No. 300 and No. 305 Squadrons took part in the first of a series of large scale raids on Hamburg which ended on 3rd August, this being the first raid in which “Window” was used by Bomber Command.
Thirteen Wellingtons of No. 300 Squadron also attacked Hanover on the night of the 22nd/23rd September. This attack is noteworthy as featuring the first use of “Spoof” raid technique by Bomber Command. The "Spoof” target on this occasion was Olderburg.
[page break]
The last bombing operation by Wellingtons of Bomber Command was an attack on Hanover on the night of 8th/9th October, 1943 and eight Wellingtons from No. 300 Squadron at Ingham took part in this operation. During the remainder of the stay in Ingham the Squadron was engaged on mine-laying.
In January, 1944, No. 1 Lancaster Finishing School moved to Hemswell from Faldingworth and the function of the Station changed from operations to training. The purpose of the School was to augment the training given in Halifax Conversion Units to bring crews almost up to a standard for operational work. The need for this special type of training ceased in December and after a year Hemswell returned to the operational role and became a sub station of Mo. 15 Base at Scampton. No. 150 and No. 170 Squadrons moved in with Lancaster aircraft and began operations by attacks on German industrial plants, in particular oil installations, as well as on docks and harbours.
During its operations from Hemswell, No. 150 Squadron flew 827 sorties, dropping more than 3,827 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs on enemy targets. In March 1945, the Squadron established its record of 236 sorties and 1,151 tons of bombs. Between November 1944 and May, 1945, the Squadron lost eight aircraft on bombing operations which entailed a loss of 40 members of aircrew. The last sortie by this Squadron was on 25th April, 1945 against Berchtesgaden.
Both 150 and 170 Squadrons took part in the attacks by Bomber Command and the VIII United States Air Force on Dresden on the 13th/14th February, and on Chemnitz on the 14th/15th, and in the great attack on Essen on 11th March, 1945, when Bomber Command dropped 4,680 tons of high explosive, the heaviest load on any single target so far during the war. The next day both squadrons joined in the attack on Dortmund when 4,851 tons were dropped, the heaviest tonnage dropped on one target.
During the month of February, 1945, the Station Commander of Hemswell presented Flying Officer J. P. Dixie with the D.F.C. for his bravery in bringing his badly damaged aircraft back to base under great difficulties from a night attack on Ludwigshaven [sic] on the 1st February. Flight Sergeant W. E. Crabs, the mid-upper gunner of Flying Officer Dixie’s crew was awarder the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal for courage displayed in his attempts to extricate the dead rear gunner from his shattered turret.
In November, 1945, Nos. 150 and 170 Squadrons disbanded at Hemswell and No. 109 Squadron arrived to re-equip with Mosquito XVI aircraft. Another Mosquito Squadron, No. 139, arrived on the 4th February, 1946. The station gradually got back to peacetime conditions and the two squadrons carried out formation flying, day and night cross countries, low level dive marking and test operations. These two Squadrons left Hemswell in November, 1946, and were replaced by Nos. 83, 97 and 100 Squadrons equipped with Lincolns. Three Lincolns, one from each Squadron flew in November on a goodwill mission to Chile.
In April, 1950, Nos. 109 and 139 Squadrons, still equipped with Mosquitos, returned to Hemswell, and from this time onwards, with Lincoln squadrons. No. 83 and 97, remained on the Station until the end of 1955. There was another Lincoln Squadron, No. 199, but this did not arrive at Hemswell until much later in April, 1952. No. 100 Squadron of Lincolns left the Station in March, 1950.
In July, 1950, 12 Lincolns from Hemswell took part in the Farnborough “Fly Past”
The Station, in November, 1951 received a visit from the Commander-in-Chief of Bomber Command, Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Lloyd and the Air Officer Commanding No. 1 Group, Air Vice Marshal D. Boyle, and was presented with the cup won for the neatest Station and best kept gardens in Bomber Command. In January of the following year, the Commander-in-Chief was again at Hemswell to present the Squadron Efficiency Trophy to No. 83 Squadroj[sic] and the Gunnery Trophy to No. 97 Squadron. He remarked that although he had presented numerous trophies, never before had he presented two of them to units on the same station on the same day. The efficiency Trophy had been won four years consecutively by Squadrons at Hemswell, in fact every year since its inception.
[page break]
Canberras made their appearance on the Station in August, 1952, when No. 109 Squadron converted from Mosquitos. No. 139 followed in January of the next year.
In August, 1953, No. 83 Squadron flew its Lincolns to Tengah to assist in operations against the Malayan terrorists. They returned to Hemswell at the end of January, 1954.
Another honour fell to the Station in November, 1953, when the Under Secretary of State for Air presented the Joliffe Trophy to the Commanding Officer of Hemswell. This trophy is awarded annually to the R.A.F. Station in the United Kingdom having the best catering facilities and airman’s dining hall. This was the first time for some years that a station in Bomber Command had won this trophy.
Nos. 83 and 97 Squadrons disbanded at Hemswell on 1st January, 1956, and on the same day No. 109 and No. 139 Squadrons moved to Binbrook, leaving No. 199 (Lincoln / Canberra) as the only squadron on the Station. The Lincoln Conversion Flight moved to Hemswell in January.
R.A.F. Hemswell continues its active role within Bomber Command
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
History of RAF Hemswell
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Outlines the history of RAF Hemswell starting from its origin as RAF Harpswell in 1918 until peacetime operations in the the 50s. The station was equipped with Ansons, then Blenheims. Part of No 3 Group, 61 and 144 Squadrons. Changed to No 5 Group, reequipped with Hampdens. Transferred to No 1 Group. 300 and 301 Squadrons moved in with Wellingtons in 1941. 300 Squadron moved to Ingham and 305 replaced it. Document contains details of various bombing operations. 150 and 170 Squadrons moved in with Lancasters during 1944.
Format
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Three photocopied pages
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Text. Personal research
Identifier
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MBeltonSLS190305-151120-03
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
1 Group
144 Squadron
150 Squadron
170 Squadron
3 Group
300 Squadron
301 Squadron
305 Squadron
5 Group
61 Squadron
Anson
Blenheim
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Hampden
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Mosquito
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2091/34781/SRAFIngham19410620v020001-Audio.2.mp3
4369a7d1eac89a65d10f511a88f4cf23
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Ingham Heritage Group. Arthur Hydes
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Arthur Hydes and a photograph. He grew up in Ingham, Lincolnshire.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RAF Ingham
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GB: Lovely. Great Stuff. Morning Arthur.
AH: Morning.
GB: Could you, first of all before we start, could you just tell me your name and where you were born please?
AH: I was born in Wyberton, near Boston, name’s Arthur Hydes, born at Wyberton. After about three weeks my parents moved up to Ingham, and we moved into Jubilee Terrace, number five, and I lived there, on and off, till I was twenty one.
GB: What are your early memories of Ingham, the village of Ingham itself?
AH: There was nothing [emphasis] like there is now. You take from the corner of the village, where all the bungalows are on the corner, right the way up to the crossroads and there was nothing. The only thing going up that side was the village pump and that was opposite Middy’s sweet shop; that was the only thing on the left hand side of the road going out towards Lincoln.
GB: When you say the pump, do you mean the filling station, the petrol station?
AH: No, the village pump. One time there was just, er, I know there was two village pumps, there was one there, opposite the sweet shop, and the other one was down west end but that was dismantled when the council houses were built and that was way after the camp was built. [Kettle boiling]
GB: Okay, and you obviously went to school there at, in Ingham, can you tell us a little bit about that?
AH: Yeah, the headmaster was Mr Crosby, quite strict [chuckle], Miss Robinson did the juniors and Mrs Landy did the nine to eleven, and Mr Crosby did the eleven to fifteens. The thing I remember about Mr Crosby was the day war ended, as you stand in the village, wherever you stand in the village, down west end, you can see, where you can see the school, right up near the church, you can see down the village, you see the school, the day war ended he opened his curtains and you could see two shining lights, one pointing, one was pointing down towards west end, if you have a look, you go and look, and you’ll see the two windows of his house and those was only two lights we could see cause we’d no electricity in the village till, well the camp brought the electricity to the village.
GB: Did it really!
AH: Yeah. There was nothing, there was no electricity, and of course there was no street lighting, and somewhere, I shall have to look, I’ve got the old meter reading bill that my parents had but it was about eight by four, something like this, I think they read it about every quarter, and somewhere I’ve got it but I don’t know where it is, but if I come across it I’ll bring it and show you it.
GB: So before the camp brought electricity, what was the lighting? Was it gas, was it candles, oil lighting?
AH: Oil lighting, and candles. Used to go to bed with a candle. [Chuckle]
GB: It won’t matter cause we can edit, one sugar and milk please, thank you very much, thank you.
AH: The main lighting was your paraffin lamp and, but most of the kids went to bed with a candle.
GB: So did you tend to have more than one paraffin lamp in the house, or was it one that was moved around room by room?
AH: Couldn’t afford too many, you moved it around!
GB: No, right. So it was paraffin not oil then. Right, okay. What else was in the village at this time? Were there many shops in the village?
AH: We had three shops: there was Tom and Fred Hays, they, we used to call it top and bottom shop, one is, let’s see, don’t know what it is now, near the old surgery, and the other one, it’s been all sorts. It’s been, was a fish shop later on, but Tom Hays, and Mr Hipkin used to have the one just near the, well it’s Inn on the Green now, er, he used to have that and he used to have a little old van and he never used to go very quick cause we’d run up the street and follow him and keep pace with him, he was, he never had it much speed, one of the real old vans it was, with the oval window inside.
GB: So was it, is that probably on one of the houses just before you get to the Inn on the Green is it?
AH: There was the Inn on the Green then there’s a house stands back a little bit, and the next one is end on, I think at one time it would have been a chapel, though it was converted into a shop and Mr Hipkin, he had that for years, I think when he finished it was made into a house.
GBL And were there many other things like possibly the Post Office or a Bakery or anything like that?
AH: The Post Office was just off the green behind where the village hall was, and it was Mr and Mrs Wilson who ran that. Erm, there was a fish shop and that was just at, what they call it now, do you know where Gloria and David Twell live?
GB: Yes, yes.
AH: Yeah, and then that was the middle, the sweet shop next door to them, and in that yard was a fish shop.
GB: Oh. And was the petrol station there during the war, or the petrol pumps?
AH: Er, no, the petrol pump, there was a petrol pump opposite where the Co-Op was. The old garage there, it’s not there any more now, but that was the petrol pump, and at the side of it was the cycle shop, because then you get the house that stands back, that was, there was a stable, and connected to the house, where my parents finished up. I’ll show you some plans of that house, as it was, and as it is, well, not as it is now cause it’s been altered again since my parents bought it. Yeah, the three pubs as you’ve got now, of course it was the Inn on the Green was a [indecipherable] Britain then, and a couple called Mr and Mrs Ward. Mrs Ward she was lovely, she was big lady, lovely laugh, and she always had a smile on her face. And the other one was Menzies. That’s changed hands quite a bit really, but in the war time it was Menzies.
GB: That’s what, that’s the Black Horse is it, that we’re talking about, yes?
AH: Yeah. Mum and dad I used to go there and I used to go and sit in the back room [laugh] cause kids weren’t allowed in pubs then.
GB: You said there was a third pub.
AH: That’s the Windmill, up on the cliff top.
GB: Oh, the Windmill, up on the top, yes, yes.
AH: I can’t remember who had that, but.
GB: Again, I’ve seen some old photographs - please come in, if you, where would you like me to, er? Thank you very much.
[Other]: [Whisper] ‘Scuse me.
GB: No, that’s okay. That’s the nice thing about films, we can edit out the bits that we don’t. [Laughter]
[Other]: Thank you very much! [Laugh]
GB: [Laugh] Thank you, sorry about that.
[Other]: Can I sit here and listen?
GB: Thank you, lovely. I have seen one or two old photographs when we talk about the Windmill, where that used to have petrol pumps at the front but that might have been, was that pre war.
AH: I can’t remember that.
GB: Probably before that then; they were out at the front of the station. So going back down into the village, obviously you were saying that out on the, what is the Lincoln road, so the council houses were all built after the war were they?
AH: Oh yeah, yeah. There was absolutely nothing. From that corner, cause from where the corner is now, I’ve got a picture painted of the village in 1945. Mrs Bailey, she lived in the village while her husband was in the forces and when he came out they was going to sell up and move back to Manchester, but they did, they had this painting of the village and it shows you the, from the post box looking up towards the village and you can see the corner with the gate into the field where all the council houses were built, bungalows and there was nothing.
GB: So that includes Church Field and all of that, that was all.
AH: Church Field, that was it.
GB: It was all built after the war.
AH: Yeah, and also, at the beginning of the war that was a bowling green in that field.
GB: Oh crikey!
AH: If you go to the front of the, front of the old vicarage and go out onto the lawn and look left [emphasis], that’s, I mean that’s just at the end of the field and that’s where the old bowling green was.
GB: That’s fascinating, I mean I’ve heard one or two stories and I’ve read one or two things about Ingham, but I hadn’t heard about a bowling green.
AH: Yeah, we had the bowling green there and then after the war it was behind the Black Horse and then we started another one up about 19, 1980, on Mr Wilson, er, tennis court. He come up to me and said I can’t play tennis any more Arthur, how about having a bowling green. So we started Ingham Bowling Club on his tennis court and of course now it’s on, it’s got the one now down on the village.
GB: Indeed, yes. So when the RAF obviously moved in and decided, as well as the airfield at the top when they started building in the village, was that at the same time as the airfield or was that after the airfield started?
AH: No, they started there and all right, call it lucky house, I was lucky cause the parent, me father worked for the, all the camp, and they took all the topsoil and grass off there, in the village, and took it onto the camp and laid it on the bad patches for the runways, up on the camp. And as a lad, course I was on the tractor with him! I mean couldn’t do it now: health and safety. You got away with murder then! And he’d take it up, lay it down and they had a small diesel roller and I’d go up there at weekends and if it’s holidays, and if you were rolling and you wanted a sandwich, I’d get on and I’d roll it for him. I were very lucky really. But what fascinated me about the camp as a lad, was somebody said they’re building a hangar, well the only hangar I knew about was when you hang anybody, and I said what is it? Course us lads, we went up to see what was on it and it was the one that was near the windmill and we were fascinated, this massive great thing, what’s this for? That was one of the first things I remember about the camp and then they started building all the huts, Nissen huts and everything, down on the camp in the village. Course there was the gymnasium and the cook house and all the facilities for feeding them and they used to have a film show, and we, I think it was on a Tuesday evening, the village people was allowed to go on the camp to see a film.
GB: And that was down in the village, the camp in the village.
AH: That was down in the village, at the camp in the village.
GB: So that in itself was quite a, especially for the children, it must have been amazing.
AH: Well, we’d never had anything, if you wanted anything like that you had to go to Lincoln.
GB: Have your own cinema, that was, yes. As children, while they were building the camp in the village, were you allowed to kind of go on and climb all over things or, because we obviously didn’t have health and safety did we.
AH: There was no health and safety, we just wandered round we was told to get out of the way. But we were, the Polish lads, they looked after us kids in the village, I mean we’d over the fence and tapping on the window and cakes passed out of the kitchen windows.
GB: And did, I’ll bring it in at this point, there was a, we’ve interviewed a lady called Zosia and she lives in erm, Derby and she was one of the cooks, who was actually in the messes during the war, she’s Polish, and she’s still alive, and we went to see her a few months ago and had a chat with her. But she married a Polish Air Force policeman and they actually lived in Jubilee Terrace and I wondered whether you remember them? She had a baby, must have been towards the end of the war, and it was, in fact it must have been just after the war because it was one of the bad winters, and she went to Gainsborough hospital and ended up staying there for a whole month because she couldn’t get back, but they were -
AH: Well it’ll have been ‘48.
GB: I’m not sure.
AH: ‘48 was a bad winter.
GB: But I’m wondering whether it was another winter earlier than that, but she was actually, she and her husband, were allowed because they were married, and they had a, and she was pregnant they were allowed to live off the camp, as in not in the barracks, but she lived in one of the little, one of the ones on Jubilee Terrace.
AH: I can’t remember that. So Mrs Store, Miles, Bowring, [sigh] Marshall, Hydes, Barratt, Bristow, Lucy, Rhodes, oh yeah, yes, that’s a point, yeah, there was Granny North but she died, and I bet that was, yeah, she lived in the end one where Granny North lived.
GB: Possibly so then, I’ll have to look back at the recording for that. Yes, so they were there, so she was a Polish cook, obviously in [beep] the Polish Air Force and he was, either a corporal or a sergeant in the Polish Air Force Police side of things and he had a moustache and smoked a pipe. I’m sure you won’t remember those details, but. So once the, all of the RAF buildings in the village were complete were you still allowed to go on there or was there a lot more?
AH: No, the only time we ever, well, I say no, I said, we used to hop over the back fence but you never went in [clock chime] the front gate, you never got in the front gate where, I think it’s still there, the main entrance to the estate there.
GB: Yes, cause you’ve got Saxon Way and Glebe Close, which was, where was the main entrance? Was it somewhere in between them, because obviously it’s all been built on now, hasn’t it.
AH: It was Dickinsons had that bungalow built. It’s more central of the estate, other thing was a car park back at it.
GB: And I understand, I think, I spoke to Elsie Dickinson.
AH: Oh Elsie, yes
GB: And she tells me some stories from the – I think she came in the early fifties, to Ingham. She obviously used to run the Scout group or Cubs or something like that.
AH: Cubs, yes, cause initially Mr Crosby, he ran the Scouts, and they just had Scouts and Cubs and then er, when he died, er, Bert Gill, he took over the Scouts and that’s where, I think that’s when Elsie took over the Cubs.
GB: And do you, and I know I appreciate it’s right on the edge of the village, where obviously the Twell’s house was built on the corner, but that used to be the medical and sick quarters right outside.
AH: Twell’s house wasn’t there.
GB: No, no, that whole piece of land was the sick quarters. Did you ever get to cycle or walk out that far out of the village?
AH: Oh yeah, actually the, after the war, that was, they called it Tin Town, but people in there said no it’s not, it’s flower gardens! [Laugh]
GB: Because a lot of the Polish families and things actually settled in there, they made houses out of the Nissen huts. Did you get a chance to go up and have a look round there, yes?
AH: Yes, there was Phil Denton, he lives down Gainsborough way now, and he actually lived in one of them, him and his wife, lived in there to start with.
GB: Oh right, when he was obviously a child at that time, with his parents I presume.
AH: No, he was a bit older than me and he got married and moved in, into there.
GB: Right, well that’s fascinating. I know there’s another lady in the village who married one of the Poles, Margaret Schmietser?
AH: Mrs Schmeier.
GB: Yes, Schmeier, or Schmeitser?
AH: She lived, well, on Jubilee Terrace, she lived next door to me.
GB: Did she! Right.
AH: Lived next to her.
GB: I think she initially, because she had three sons and I was talking to her a couple of years ago.
AH: Charlton, Dale and, um.
[Other]: Alan.
AH: Alan.
GB: Two of them were actually born in what we call Tin Town. I think Dale might have been the younger one. Obviously she met Jan right at the end of the war.
AH: Her dad wasn’t all that happy about it. And she used to go down to Lucy, that’s two doors away, and she’d go down and see Lucy and Jan used to come down see her. [Laugh] Love conquers all!
GB: Yes, indeed. What was the, bearing in mind most of the RAF people that were in Ingham were Polish, how did people in the village take to them?
AH: Great. I mean all right, I mean we got involved, I got involved more with them than some of the kids because dad worked on the camp, mum was on the WVS and on a Friday or Saturday night they had the bottom half of the old village hall and they put, they’d have, well tea and coffee, and when the lads left the pub they would always nip there for a coffee before they went home. But us lads, Saturday morning, we used to be straight down and look under the village hall because nine times out of ten they’d come out with a bottle in their hand and got to the village hall and threw the bottles under the village hall, and went in there for a coffee before they went in the camp. And we went down Saturday morning, got the bottles and take them back to the pub got a penny on them! [Laughter] But one, one Saturday morning, went down and blow me there was four full bottles! They’d put them in under there and they forgot about ‘em and gone back!
GBL So you and your mates.
AH: We didn’t drink them all, took ‘em home. Can’t remember if dad gave me anything for ‘em but.
GB: What did your father do on the camp?
AH: He was just general labouring and to start with he was doing jobs round the camp.
GB: Was that down in the village or up on the airfield?
AH: Well, on both. Then he finished up boiler man and he was in that section what you’re doing now, that was the old boiler house, and at a weekend I’d go up with him and I’ve actually slept on the floor there!
GB: Right, so, and you mentioned your mum was in the WRVS.
AH: Yeah. And quite often you know, she’d shut up at night, she’d come home and some of the lads would come with her, we’d have a house full and they’d say where’s the lad, he’s in bed, get him up, let’s have a sing song, get me out of bed, get me on the piano, ten o’clock at night we’d be having a sing-song!
GB: You were playing the piano were you?
AH: Yeah!
GB: Oh, right, okay.
AH: So you know, we always had a house full of people, I mean neighbours never cared; they, you know, they was happy go lucky then.
GB: Well I can imagine yes, that during the war years you’d enjoy whatever fun you could get, and people didn’t, then again, whereas people lead very busy lives, and they kind of get up and go into one of the big cities to work, or towns to work, I imagine that most people in Ingham at that time probably worked, if they worked, within the village or on the land.
AH: Well yeah, because there was Dalton, pff, Sykes, Harrison, Deans; I mean, it was just farming community really. I mean a few people went into town, but a lot actually worked round the farms.
GB: Did you, obviously you’ve mentioned with your mates that you used to go up to the airfield, what’re your memories, obviously you talked about the first hangar you’d seen, probably the biggest structure you’d seen at that time in your life because I imagine even some of the farming sheds probably weren’t anywhere near the size of a hangar.
AH: I mean there was virtually, the only buildings up there, there was a little row of cottages near the windmill and the doctor’s surgery on the opposite side, but otherwise there was virtually nothing on the camp; in the middle of the camp of course, there was the old farm buildings there.
GB: Cliff House.
AH: Yeah, and I mean that was, that finished up petrol dump, didn’t it, cause we, you very rarely got across there. But we could get on to where the hangars were, on the, er, near the windmill.
GB: I’ve been asking questions, which we’ve seen some of the old drawings and maps that seem to show that the runway went right across Ingham Lane, from the top down to the A15, but we’re not quite sure.
AH: Yes. There were no road there.
GB: It was closed off during the war was it?
AH: It, actually, all there was there, you got to the top, the top of Cow Hill, just went across the road there, there was just a big tip there. If you go and dig now you’ll find all sorts in there.
GB: Was that on the left or the right hand side as you go over the top?
AH: Left hand side.
GB: On the left hand side, right, yeah.
AH: Just before the white ball. And no, I’ve sat on the roller with dad and we’ve rolled up that stretch of runway, cause they used to take off from both ways and also I couldn’t understand that er, that was built as well for emergencies, if the, Scampton got bombed, they could land on, they could land at Ingham and taxi across to Scampton from there.
GB: Couple of fields, yes. Because obviously a lot of the old maps, ’42 and ’44, that I’ve seen now, the Air Ministry maps, show the old Ingham Lane, but they show it completely blocked off. So obviously it must have been there before the war and then they just chopped off. So what was the road surface normally in that, was it still Tarmac, was it concrete roads before the war?
AH: No, tarmac cause the -
GB: So did they put stuff on top, did they put soil on top or did they just dig it, dig the road up?
AH: I can’t remember that.
GB: Obviously something there that you were rolling.
AH: I remember it being reinstated because Mr Miles who lived on Jubilee Terrace, he worked for the council, he was on the road roller, course we used to go up there and course I was on the road roller with him and I remember that road being redone; that was after the war.
GB: So yes, so obviously as boys then you were absolutely fascinated with the aircraft started landing and taking off from Ingham.
AH: Yes! We did there, we used to go to Scampton as well, we was there when the Yanks came in to Scampton. And when the Yanks, they adopted the Scout group and used to bring sweets and all sorts. So I mean we was lucky as far as the RAF was concerned, they looked after us kids in the village quite a lot.
GB: And certainly from a wider perspective if, if the RAF coming to Ingham was the thing that brought electricity to the village, I’m sure most of the villagers must have been delighted too actually.
AH: Not only that it was sewage as well, wasn’t it. We had no sewage, no flush toilets, no electricity.
GB: Because the sewage farm was built at the back of Tin Town wasn’t it. Yes, I’ve seen some of the things from that. So, obviously the Poles are very polite people and I’ve heard one or two stories where, and including yourself, where you’ve talked about them being invited into people’s homes, and they have their own customs and they’re very polite people. Would you say that was very true from what you remember?
AH: Yeah, I mean, well I used to go in the mess up at the camp if dad was on nights, and what fascinated me, they’d sit there sat with the poker in the fire then stir their beer up with the red hot poker! Fascinate me that did!
GB: Warm beer! Yes, very good. Ah! So coming through the war years, what other memories do you have? You’ve obviously talked about the cinema was there during the war years, on the camp down in the village, how would normal life be? Cause obviously you would be at school most of the time, when you finished school each day, what normally happened on a school day, you know, when you finished lessons and things?
AH: Well, I mean quite often we would go down the fields, especially at harvest time and it was fantastic. I mean a lot of our time was spent out and round about fields, course nowadays I don’t think the kids go down and make dens, I mean we just been round the country, you know. I mean we hadn’t a lot of money, couldn’t afford to go to town, and so you made your own entertainment.
GB: You mention that they had dances. Was that in the village hall or was that actually on the camp?
AH: No, that was in the village hall. I can’t, cause I weren’t old enough to.
GB: Get invited along.
AH: After the war they did have dances in the village hall cause the, I think the Gay Gordons, [loud voice] who was the other band, love?
[Other]: Pardon?
GB: [Loud voice] Who was the other band from Gainsborough?
[Other]: Len Emmerson.
AH: Len Emmerson, yeah.
GB: You can come and sit with us in here if you like! Please do. Would you like to come and sit. I feel awful, I’ve just realised you’re just sitting there, please, yeah.
[Other]: I’m just listening.
GB: We’ve obviously talked about the local people. You’ve said there used to be the old doctor’s surgery, where exactly was that? You’ve mentioned the one, there’s obviously a doctor’s surgery up opposite the Windmill pub, but there, there was something in the village was there as well?
AH: No.
GB: No? Oh, that was it.
AH: That was it. You’d got to be, well, you couldn’t be ill; you’d got to be fit to walk up the hill to do the three quarters of a mile to go to see the doctor! But no the doctor used to turn out because he was one of very few people who’d got a car.
GB: So he would come and see you.
AH: He’d come and see you. And mother was always involved with people round the village and quite often I’d get home from school, nip up to the doctor, nip up to the doctor, you know, Mrs so and so wants, got some medicine to be collected. So I’d be, used to be up that hill quite often; she volunteered me for lots of jobs.
GB: And I presume from what you were saying as well, being a bit of a poacher as well, you knew how to make a penny or two on the [laughter], you definitely strike me as somebody, as when you were a youngster, that could er, you were never short of a penny or two!
AH: The er, the first policeman, he was quite strict and, called Dixon, but after Dixon there was somebody called Cutts. I remember I picked up two rabbits, was walking home with ‘em, and I saw him coming so I threw ‘em in the dyke and bit later on I went back to get them and they’d gone. Next time I saw him he just looked, with a twinkle in his eyes, and hello Arthur. I thought you’ve had my rabbits! [Much laughter]
GB: Did he live in the village? Was there like a police station in the village, or a police house?
AH: Yeah, that was in the middle of the council houses in the middle going up, out on Lincoln Road.
GB: On Lincoln Road, yes.
AH: Detached, there’s a detached one in the middle there, isn’t there, if you look through the.
GB: I would have to go and have a look, but yes, past Elsie’s house and a bit further up from that. [Beep] Avenue entrance in the dyke and it’s one of the ones a bit further.
AH: Keep going up, there’s a bungalow, and the council houses start, two, four, two, four, six, yeah, there’s two, four six, and then there’s three semis, and then there’s a detached house on its own and the rest of them, likely to be the police house.
GB: We’ve got some, again we’re going back to the maps, cause that’s the main thing that we can draw a lot of our information from, behind where the camp and the village was, there was another set of Nissen huts, accommodation, but it was separate, and it’s, it looks like it’s accessible now, but the spot where it was, as you go halfway up Cow Hill there’s a bridle path off, which runs behind the new medical centre and doctors, and half way across that field, as if you were heading towards the Old Rectory House, it looks like there was a set of Nissen huts and accommodation there, can you remember any of that? It would have been behind the RAF camp. No?
AH: No. I can’t remember that. I know there was some there, but never got.
GB: Never got that far round. Have you any other memories at all from, especially from the war years, about the buildings that, and what was there, in the village, as far as the RAF goes? Because obviously that’s now all been completely flattened and built on, so it’s memories like people like yourself that can actually kind of put a bit of colour into what is very much a black and white picture.
AH: The Scouts, they had one of the Nissen huts for their headquarters after the war, when it closed.
GB: But during the war was it quite a, was the station buildings, were they quite a busy area during the daytime, a lot of people?
AH: Yeah. There was always troops going from the camp up to the, because I mean most of the eating and everything was down on the sites and up the top was just the flying, flying section.
GB: Up towards, and this is something that Margaret Schmietser mentioned to me, that up on the top road as you go towards Fillingham, the last set of Nissen huts, there’s like two rusty Nissen huts that are left from a whole group that were there, she was saying that at one point, and she couldn’t remember if it was the end or during the war right at the end or after the war, they were used as a cinema and a dance hall up there. Have you got any recollection of that, no?
AH: No, maybe, well, at the end of the war I mean I wouldn’t be dancing.
GB: No, exactly. How old were you at the end of the war, would you have been?
AH: Nine, ten, nine, ten.
GB: So you were still with your mates running about and cycling everywhere or wherever you went round the old airfield. Did it seem strange when the war, well, after the war had ended, when they, the RAF gave the airfield back to the farmers?
AH: Yeah, it was, be quite, I mean well I still kept in touch with one or two of them, but the Polish lads, a lot of them, they said that they didn’t know what they were going to, how they was going to get back, or whether they was going to be shot when they got back when the Russians got hold of them because the Russians and the Polish was at loggerheads then and Raymond, the lad who, well, he was very good friends with mum and dad, and he said if I can get, if I get back safe and I get a chance to contact you I will do, but we never heard anything. So we never knew what happened to him.
GB: Hmm. I know, I certainly know from reading some of the literature that the early Polish Air Force personnel that went back, more than the Polish Army that went back, the Russians were very um, very sceptical of them, and they thought they were possibly there to spy, so a lot of them did and I think about twelve did end up being shot and quite a lot were put into prison, which then stopped, word did get back quite quickly, and it certainly deterred a lot of the Poles from going back, which is why obviously the British Government.
AH: Yes, we’ve got Phil, Phil lived in the village.
GB: Yes, there’s one or two and they had the, I think it was the Polish Resettlement Act of 1947 allowed them to either stay in Britain or go to what was then the Empire countries and a lot of them obviously chose to go to Canada and South Africa as it was then, but a lot obviously stayed in Britain and that’s why we have so many of the families in Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire. The jobs they could do were quite restricted though, there was, it was normally the steel industry or down the mines, those kind of were the only jobs, because obviously post war Bevan and that side of it wanted, you know, all the jobs for British workers so they found it very restrictive. There was a couple of other characters that, obviously Polish Air Force, there was a chap who apparently used to clean windows called Darkie Polack.
AH: Oh Darkie, yeah.
GB: Yeah, I don’t know if he lived in kind of Ingham or worked in.
GB: No, he lived in Ingham. Well you come up from the hollow, well you know where Elsie lives, the bungalow, there’s three or four houses just there; he lived in one of those.
GB: Oh right, but he did the windows, yes.
AH: Talk about, well I always remember one night it was, well I mean it was always pitch black in Ingham, and there was this big uproar, shouting and everything, and course dad got the torch and went out and two of the lads that were absolutely kalined and had walked past us, round the corner where the old vicarage used to be, and walked in [emphasis] to the village pond, [laughter], with no idea where they was; they were shouting for help.
GB: Is that the village pond, is that where there’s a small pond now? Is that, there’s like a little back row past Jubilee Terrace, that you go round the back part of the village, is that not the village pond.
AH: No, just in front of the church; the village pond was there.
GB: Ah right, in front of the church, right, okay.
AH: They’d come round the corner to go towards up the hill and they’d come round the corner and just walked into the pond.
GB: Into the pond!
AH: Somewhere I’ve got a photograph of the old village pond. I must get the.
GB: I’d be fascinated to see also, any old photographs that you had, taken around Ingham when you were a boy, just to have a little look at them, because what we’ve found is the number of photographs from one or two people, where one of their family or friends are in the front of the photograph and what we are always interested is what is in the back [emphasis] of the photograph. Um, it wasn’t Margaret, it was another lady that we’ve got at Fillingham now, who’d got some photographs of her husband and the farm workers up on the airfield straight after the war, because the main guardroom, which is almost opposite Church Lane, they actually lived in the guardroom there.
AH: Somebody else lived in the Nissen huts opposite them.
GB: Opposite, yes.
AH: Their name was Smith.
GB: I’m wondering whether it was, was Ray Beaumont part of that would he, or would have been too young wouldn’t he, Ray Beaumont.
AH: No, Ray Beaumont’s about the same age as me.
GB: Is he, and Arthur Melton was the other one who I spoken to you about. But whoever it was, they’d taken the photographs of the two young husbands, herding the cows in front and behind it is, obviously what was their house, but it was the old RAF guardroom, the main guardroom and that’s the only photograph I’ve found of the main guardroom. So it’s what’s in the background, and somebody else took a photograph, obviously I think in the very early fifties, of their new combine harvester but we’ve got the old buildings in the background, on the airfield which don’t exist any more, so it’s almost what’s in the background of the photograph which can be just, if not more, important to us than what’s in the near ground. We’ve just been speaking to um, Brian and Elaine Smith, that used to live up on the Green for many, many years. They’ve moved out to Dunholme now, but she’d compiled books and books of press cuttings and photographs and everything like that, and she’s just got one book which is all to do with RAF Ingham that she’d collected through the forties and fifties and that kind of era, so we’ve now got photographs that we never had before which is absolutely [emphasis] priceless. But there we are. And even Elsie, who was in the village I think she said about the early fifties she got married and moved into the village, she’s got huge scrap books.
AH: Yeah, she loves those scrapbooks didn’t she.
GB: But the scrapbooks, because she couldn’t get paper she’d use old wallpaper to make each of the pages up and then stick the things on, and most of hers were press cuttings, but it was everybody’s – typically - births, deaths, funerals, christenings, with the picture and bits on. So it went right the way back and she’d got a few photographs. And one of the photographs she was convinced, or she was trying to convince me, that was part of the old RAF site in the village, but they were like, almost, these building were the size of hangars. Now there’s nothing on the thing so I’m wondering if that’s farm buildings post war. And people were being driven.
AH: Yeah, because Lockwood, he did build a grain drier, and there was great big stores, yeah, there was a lot of big building, but there was no big building on there during the war.
GB: During the war no, they were all single story. And there was another one where all the kids were being taken round in the village, was it Bradshaw’s had a big lorry, or somebody like that? There was a lorry and all the kids, it was.
AH: No, that was Twell’s lorry,
GB: That’s Twell’s lorry was it?
AH: I’ll be on it somewhere!
GB: I’ll dig out that photograph and bring it round for you and show you. There was a lady.
AH: I should say I’ve got most of them!
GB: Ah right, probably, yes.
AH: I’ve got them from about 1930, 1930’s or something like that when they used to go round the villages in a horse and cart!
GB: I’d love, I would love at some point over a coffee, over your dining room table, to have a look at some of these photographs, if possible. Certainly the stuff from kind of the late thirties onwards, through the forties because again, as much as everything else, it’s interesting what’s in the background and having taken these photographs in the village, or your parents had done, or other people had done, they’re where we suddenly see things in the background that we didn’t realise.
AH: Can I just get.
[Other]: Arthur! You’ll not manage love, surely
AH: Pardon?
[Other]: You’ll not manage. Go on, up.
GB: Do you want me to help you?
AH: No, no.
GB: I’ll just turn this off for a moment. All kind of stuff, it doesn’t examination, go on.
AH: I went for, we used to go with for, not Alan Wright, his father, I mean Alan’s dead and gone now, but his father used to have the farm in the village, before Alan, and we used to take the cows, and there’s a wider verge on the left hand side coming up Cow Hill and we used to take the cows and just keep them tented on there just in case any cars come, well, very few cars came then and we used to get about sixpence a day for that! [Laugh]
GB: So you say you tented them?
AH: Well, looked after them.
GB: Corralled them.
AH: That’s what you call tenting cows.
GB: Right, okay. Ah, sorry, I didn’t know that. So you kept them on the verges.
AH: We kept them on the verge and so it’s fresh grass for them
GB: Right, okay, I’m with you, I understand now, yeah. I was about to ask why would you keep them on the verges, but obviously if the grass was a lot better than it was on the fields and things, yeah, and you were just making sure they didn’t wander into the road from the vehicle side of things. Did many people, certainly during the war years, did many people have cars or lorries in the village?
AH: No, no. I mean, no, tchh, even the, well I say, the only one we saw regularly was the [clock chimes] doctors. Even Twells, all right, a lot of people looking at the village and you see the scrap yard and the houses they had, well I mean even those, they started down west end and had a small scrap yard there, [clock chime] and during the war they got tyres and cut two, three inch rings out of tyres and they stuck ‘em round the village, sold them for fire lighters.
GB: Of course, yes! Cause once they were lit they don’t go out, do they.
AH: Mrs Twell, she belonged the WI, and she bought a tin sealing machine. They bought the tins, they cooked and she invited all the ladies down, they cooked all the fruit and everything and they tinned their own fruit so we were lucky. We had tinned fruit on a Sunday sometimes. Whereas I mean it was -
GB: Rationing during the war.
AH: Rationing, yeah, but well and I can see the machine now, you stood it up, put the machine on, ram this handle, it turned round and sealed the tin.
GB: So it was a kind of solder was it, did it?
AH: No, it bent it down.
GB: Bent it over.
AH: Bent it over and sealed it.
GB: Crimped it.
AH: No soldering to it.
GB: Do you remember well, as a boy, were you, did you actually get a ration card for yourself or did your mother keep all of that?
AH: Oh, she kept it. The only one I was allowed to get was the sweets.
GB: The sweets, and tell me a little bit about that, that sounds interesting. What did you get or what were allowed to have?
AH: Well, if there was two lads, you never, you didn’t told you’re going into Middy’s and buy sweets, because you’d go and get your selection but you wouldn’t have anything, but you never came out the shop without anything. She, Mrs Middy used to always give us other person some sweets, so if you’d bought something you wouldn’t have got anything free!
GB: Always went in as one on your own. Was there a shortage of sweets or could you still get sweets cause obviously -
AH: There was a shortage of sweets. The thing you could get most and quite regular was these Victory Vs, square lozenges, [chuckle] you could get them, but sweets, no.
GB: And chocolate, was there any chocolate?
AH: No. I remember getting chocolates, as I say, off the Yanks. They was the one who brought chocolates in to our village.
GB: What’s your other kind of memories now, because obviously you were, through the war you were at junior school age, although it was the same school at Ingham, so you are junior school age, what are your other kind of abiding memories of the war years as, as a junior school kind of age child?
AH: Well, I mean, it all used to be fun, football, and I mean they go on about school meals and everything now, well we got them and they was cooked and served in the village hall. And I mean I think, I can’t remember, only about two shillings a week, something crazy like this, you know.
GB: So you used to come out of school at lunchtime, get to the village hall to get your dinner, or your lunch.
AH: Yes.
GB: What did that normally consist of? Can you remember?
AH: No, but I used to hate it when it was sago. [Laugh] Sago pudding. Didn’t like sago pudding. No, I can remember quite reasonable meals.
GB: And did you, when you got up in the morning, did you have breakfast, and if so what kind of things did you have for breakfast?
AH: Yes, the, I mean if you wanted to, I mean I was getting into trouble, I was a little devil I expect really, sneak out of the house without gas mask and get to school but they’d send you back home [laugh] but um, oh crikey, and of course I think mum got wise to that, she’d make sure I took it every day.
GB: And I’ve heard that there were at least one air raid that happened slightly up on the cliff top near the airfield during the war, but did, down at the school did you have like an air raid shelter or anything for the kids? Nothing at all?
AH: No. One or two people in the village had these, not Anderson shelter, what’s the tables.
[Other]: Morrison.
AH: Morrison tables.
[Other]: Morrison shelter.
AH: It was just a metal table guard and you could crawl under that.
GB: And do you remember any of the air raids that happened, or was that not something?
AH: There was, I can remember a German plane got shot down and also at Scampton when the bomb trailer went up. It affected nearly every village, nearly every house in our village had windows broken even from the blast at Scampton camp.
GB: On Scampton, crikey.
AH: It was, I can remember this terrific boom going up and I don’t think my feet touched the floor until I got to my granny’s house, cause she lived down off the village green there.
GB: And this was in the day time was it?
AH: Yeah.
GB: And it actually broke windows in most of the houses.
AH: Broke windows and I mean Jubilee Terrace, if you look Jubilee Terrace windows are only small windows and even those were broken, cracked.
GB: Cracked. Blimey. And I understand there was at least one German aircraft that either dropped bombs or kind of strafed the airfield at the top, is that anything that you, can you remember?
AH: It was more towards Fillingham I think. It didn’t, I don’t think it got to the camp at the top of us, it was more towards Fillingham.
GB: Right, okay. Just going back on to the airfield for a moment cause I’m trying to kind of cover as many areas as I can as we chat on. You were saying that, obviously your father worked up on the airfield and down on the camp and you helped him quite a bit, but you were remembering an area just at the top of Cow Hill where the old crossroads used to be, before, obviously they’ve cut down now, and you were saying that um, on the left hand side, just inside the fence line, was an area that was like the scrap heap as it were.
AH: Yeah, well I mean people, I mean you’d you know, dustbin collectors, anything like this, well any scrap you got you just wheelbarrowed it, carried it.
GB: Just dug a big hole did they?
AH: Oh, big enough to put a house in. I mean there’s cars and all sorts dumped in there. If you dug that now, I mean all right, you wouldn’t a lot, bit it was, there was all sorts dumped in there.
GB: I’ve heard one or two stories that, and certainly it’s true on other RAF airfields, because so many airfields were closing at the end of the war or within a year or so after the war, the RAF naturally only took complete cartons and boxes of things away to other stations because there were so many airfields that were closing they didn’t need all of it, and I did hear from several people, though they couldn’t quite pinpoint where stuff was just dumped in a big hole, so could it well be this big hole you’re talking about?
AH: Well I can’t, I mean I doubt it, because well, I mean us lads was always up there because it was a terrific bird nesting site as well. So I mean we was always up there. If anything had happened I think the lads would have known.
GB: And you’d be in there quick, see what you could scavenge.
AH: Yeah. I mean if they’ve gotta dump anything I should have, I should say that perhaps dumped it somewhere else. It’s like they say there was a lot dumped at Sturgate when the Yanks moved out, but you know, I don’t know anything about that.
GB: No, no, that’s okay, it was just the fact that with your knowledge of being up on the airfield I thought that might have been one of the nuggets of information that you had. Well, I think that’s it. Is there anything else really you think that you’d like to chat to me about, anything to do with the airfield itself and your time up there. Any funny stories?
AH: No, I don’t think so, I mean after the war it turned to [indecipherable] and they had, some of the hangars was made into big stores for all the equipment.
GB: And Tin Town kept going as accommodation for quite a few years, yeah. And then after that, did, were Twells that family that actually bought it, or somebody in between that bought it?
AH: No, they built the house on the corner, Sid Twell did. I mean Bert had the, already had the scrapyard at Cammingham, and Bert moved, er Sid moved into the one on the corner there and then that’s when he bought Tin Town.
GB: And then obviously started to use it as a bigger scrap yard. I must, I understand either Bert or Sid’s wife is still alive. Mrs Twell. I don’t know her first name. She must be probably in her late eighties, early nineties I would think now, I don’t know whether, you obviously.
AH: I don’t know where Mrs Twell lives.
GB: Again, I spoke to a couple of people, even Elsie thought that she was still alive somewhere.
AH: Oh, I don’t know. I mean blow me, I mean I saw Doreen yesterday.
GB: And that’s her daughter is it? Or daughter in law.
[Other]: Daughter in law.
AH: Daughter in law.
GB: Daughter in law, yes.
AH: I was speaking to Doreen yesterday.
GB: Cause I mean that’s another area that again [emphasis] we’ve got absolutely no photographs of, but bearing in mind there were a lot of Polish families there, post war, they will have had cameras, not all of them granted, but somebody would have taken photos. It might just be typically a marriage, a christening, because obviously they’re very kind of religious, and photographs that we’ve got from other sites, so we’re trying to find, we’ve got the map which shows where all the original Nissen huts were on Tin Town and we were lucky enough two years ago to go on there. Most of them had rusted through but we’ve got enough pieces that we’ve recreated one up at the site where we are at the top, so at the back of what is the airmen’s mess, which is the building that we’ve got, with the front of it, the boiler room at the front of it, we’ve actually made, we’ve had a new concrete base made and we’ve re-erected, with some fresh crinkly tin over the top of it, but it’s the original ribs from one of the Nissen huts in, down in there and we’re building the internal walls cause they little bedrooms and things, and a bathroom, bathroom, toilety bathroom thing. So that’s actually going to be done out as a 1946 ‘47 Polish, with the help of Margaret and one or two of the others. And you mentioned as well, a gentleman called Denton, or Deeton.
AH: Phil Denton.
GB: Denton. It would be great to meet him if you could perhaps give him my details, or you’ve got the details.
AH: I don’t know; where is he? Is he down Gainsborough way now?
[Other]: Last I knew he was in Lincoln.
GB: Cause his first hand knowledge of what it was like in a, like you will remember probably the first house you can remember living in, you remember where things were, and I do, He’ll be able to talk us through perhaps what it was really like inside them.
[Other]: Yes.
AH: Well actually it was one of the RAF lads who wired our house in Jubilee Terrace, Alf Sefton, and he put our electricity in, in Jubilee Terrace.
GB: That was during the war years was it?
AH: Well, just or just after.
GB: Just after, yeah.
AH: I shall have to find, try and find this meter reading card and that will give us the date. Actually he was the electrician for the Odsal Stadium, the speedway, at Bradford.
GB: Oh, right!
AH: Yeah, so after the war. You come to Odsal.
[Other]: I did once, yes.
GB: And one question I haven’t asked you yet, and I probably should have done it at the beginning, but how did you two meet?
AH: {Laughter] Well it was 1954, [chuckle] and I’d had a motorbike accident and I went into digs in Gainsborough and one of my friends while doing apprenticeship, said are you coming dancing Arthur, nah, I’m not coming dancing, he said come on there’s a dancing school down Acton Street, nah, I’m not interested. I shall go in for a pint. Look, I’ll come for a pint with you and then will you come with me to this dancing class, cause he was, he loved dancing. He was in a dancing team up in Grimsby, actually, and well, the rest is history, we walked through the door and that was it, wan’t it duck.
[Other]: Yes it was.
GB: So you were a Gainsborough lass then were you?
[Other]: Yes.
AH: December, about December the 20th, something like that.
[Other]: December the 20th.
GB: That’s a good memory, I think if my wife said to me now what date did we actually first meet I would struggle, I’d know the month but that’s all. I’m impressed, that’s good, that’s very, very good!
[Other]: Cause it was your mum’s birthday on the twentieth.
GB: Ah, right.
[Other]: And Arthur you told me about watching a plane that didn’t make it off the -
AH: Oh yeah, there was a, one morning, how the heck the grapevine gets round, I remember running up to the camp, before school, and a plane had come off, and at one time I mean I know there’s hardly anything now, but between the road and the camp there used to be a great big dip and it had come off, come down the dip, and it was nosed, part the way across the Ingham Fillingham Road, top right [beep] and we was up there before school and they was taking bombs off it, and we were just the other side of hedge peering through!
GB: And this was one of Ingham’s planes was it?
AH: Yes, it hadn’t made it but he’d.
GB: Did you know whether he was taking off or trying to land?
AH: I think it was taking off, cause they used to take off straight across the village and they used to take off, they used come virtually straight along Jubilee Terrace. You’d watch them, look out bedroom window and see them taking.
GB: Because looking at a lot of the flight records, certainly the operational flights during the war years, they used to take off at about ten or eleven at night, the ones that were doing the bombing raids, they used to be back about two three sometimes four in the morning, depending on how far into Germany they went, you know, the early hours of the morning and then they’d write the time down or type it into the log.
AH: Being upstairs in the bedroom looking out at ‘em.
GB: You’d hear them at night, obviously, taking off before you went to bed. Fascinating. It’s memories like yours of little things like that, that will make a lot of what we are trying to do at the Heritage Centre, just tell people’s stories. Because it’s one thing anybody reads a book, a book is like two dimensional, but to have you know, whether it’s you know, former Air Force veterans chatting, or local people there at the time, which is why we’re trying to get round as many people as we can, just to get the simple, the daft, simple things, even where you were on the tractor with your dad, or the roller, and things like that because it’s all [emphasis] part of the history of Ingham as a village and Ingham as an airfield.
[Other]: And have you mentioned your piece of sheet music, “To young gentleman, Arthur”?
AH: I’ve got a sheet, a piece of music, Handel’s “Largo”, and Raymond, he gave me that and on it he’s put: “To young gentleman Arthur”, and I think it’s dated 1944.
GB: Aww! So how did, I was going to go back one stage, and it connects with this, how did, where did you learn to play the piano? Because you said people used to come round to your house and you’d play the piano.
AH: Oh, I started learning piano from about five year old I expect.
GB: Was that through your mother and father, or did you?
AH: Yeah.
GB: Oh right. They played the piano as well did they?
AH: Well actually, I had an uncle who was in the RAF at Scampton, he was a musician, and he used to come down now and again and he encouraged me.
GB: So the Poles obviously, when you got together with them they enjoyed you playing. Did they provide any other sheet music or did you just play your own tunes and things?
AH: No, I’ve still got the sheet music I used to play when I was with them. Still got some over in the drawers.
GB: I wonder if there’s a photograph anywhere around, of you on the piano playing, exactly, with the Poles round the back of you, kind of. That would be a superb photograph, wouldn’t it. You almost think somebody must have taken a photograph somewhere and they go oh, there’s this little lad who lived in the village where we were and he’s playing the piano, all the guys with a pint or a cup of tea round the edge, that’s fascinating.
AH: I mean, saying that, neighbours and that didn’t care, because old Mr Marshal, next door to us, I came home one night from school and mum says don’t go on the piano, says Mr Marshall’s very ill, think he’s dying. Bit later on, door goes, knock on the door and it was Grace, next door neighbour’s daughter like, says Dad wants to know why Arthur’s not playing the piano. I mean there he was, mum and dad were saying don’t, he was, he was dying, and she he wanted to know why I wasn’t playing the piano!
GB: Lovely, so you got on and played a bit for him. Lovely. Well thank you very much, if there’s other things you can think of in the future.
AH: I’ll have a good look. I’ve got hundreds of photographs. I shall go through them to see what I can find.
GB: It’s really, especially through, as you were saying, your junior school ages, through the war years, because there might be some interesting ones where you and your mates were at the beginning, or you and the family are in the front, but it’s always interesting what’s in the back. That’s not saying your family isn’t interesting, but you know what I mean! It’s amazing what can be in the back of a picture and especially in a village where so much has changed now, and it will never ever, ever go back to how it was; these are the pictures. We’ve found as well that with a lot of the veterans, and RAF veterans, if we’re not careful, [pause] when it gets to the point where your family are clearing out your house in a few years’ time, a lot of years’ time, and I hate to say this like this.
[Other]: Better a long time.
GB: A long time. If there’s pictures where you’re in the picture, you tend to save them, and I remember my parents telling me this when my [emphasis] grandpa who was in Birmingham, and mum regrets it cause my father, who was obviously his son in law, when, he ended up clearing what was the parlour, the front room, and he only saved pictures where they’d got people on them so any scenery type pictures all just went – oh no, we don’t need that. So I always tell people look, have a good look, see what scenery pictures you’ve got because sometimes they can be, you know, the little kind of nugget in there because how they have pictures.
[Other]: Yes.
GB: Things that you would just, or your parents just go click, click, oh yes, and take a couple of pictures: this is Ingham how it was and they’re the fascinating ones so certainly I would be delighted to see any photographs you’ve got.
AH: I mean I don’t think I’ve actually got a lot, cause the, not a -
GB: I’ll just turn this off.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Arthur Hydes
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Hydes grew up in Ingham and his family were closely involved with the life of the RAF camp during the war, watching the airfield being built and operations from there. He talks about the village before, during and after the war, including schooldays, shops and people he knew. Arthur also remembers his parents welcomed the airmen into their home and he would play the piano, being concerned about their futures after the war and how much colour he can provide to the history of the village.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
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eng
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Sound
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01:07:22 audio recording
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SRAFIngham19410620v020001-Audio
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
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Geoff Burton
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Anne-Marie Watson
childhood in wartime
entertainment
home front
Nissen hut
RAF Ingham
RAF Scampton
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1561/34782/SRAFIngham19410620v030001-Audio.1.mp3
ec8f5ae33c3398bd75adf9f2892c5498
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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RAF Ingham Heritage Group
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-14
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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RAF Ingham
Description
An account of the resource
25 items in six collections. The collection concerns RAF Ingham and contains interviews photographs and documents concerning:
Andrzej Jeziorski - Pilot 304 Squadron
Arthur Hydes - Boy in Ingham
Brian Llewellyn -ATC
Jan Black - Rear Gunner 300 Squadron
Lech Gierak - Armourer 303 Squadron
Marion Clarke - MT Driver RAF Ingham
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak - Armourer
Stanislaw Jozefiak - Air Ops 304 Squadron - Pilot on Spitfires
Wanda Szuwalska - Admin 300 Squadron Faldingworth
Zosia Kowalska - Cook RAF Ingham
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by the RAF Ingham Heritage Group and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Int: Mainly er, how you came to be involved really, with the airfield at RAF Ingham.
BL: I’ll tell you how I came to be involved then. [Clears throat] When I was in the ATC we had one official visit to Hemswell.
Int: Yes.
BL: And at that time 300 Squadron was at Hemswell, along with another Polish squadron, and an English squadron too, and we went to look and have a go at the Link Trainer. Now I thought this was good, it’s great, flying this Link Trainer, you know, I made a mess of it of course at first, it so I decided what I’d do was, I didn’t have the bike at the time, I didn’t, but it was on the road to Market Rasen, past [indecipherable] corner, up the Corringham road, [indecipherable] road along to Market Rasen. So I took the bus up there to get off at the pub on the corner and it’s only a few yards to the left was the entrance to RAF Hemswell, and course I got through the guard, it is war time and of course they were all people that had been conscripted and sort of lazy type things, you know, if you talked to them, nothing official or anything like that, so I just got through you see. I just walked through into there and I decided, to take me knife, fork, spoon and mug and so I went, I don’t know where I went to first, I can’t remember. I remember ending up in the Link Room place, the Link Trainer room and there was a sergeant there who was only too keen to let me have a go on it you see. And this became quite a regular thing, again, and of course I took my log book, I’d have it signed and there was a description of what I’d done and I suppose there’s some kind of a record, because I mean, it’s interesting because in those days everybody knew that we were being trained to follow on, that was the whole purpose of the Air Training Corps, so we would follow on as the blokes got killed we were the next ones to go and get killed! So again, so it was recorded there. That was that, although I did go to other RAF stations, in the same way actually. I remember going to Kirton in Lindsey too, in the same way, we weren’t allowed in at Blyton because that’s an operational training unit, well we were but there was no flying, and there was no flying at Hemswell for that matter - they were they were all on operations you see. And what happened after that was the business of sport afternoons which was Wednesday, yes Wednesdays, that’s right. Thursdays was activities and that’s ATC. Sports afternoon Wednesday, so there were a number of us, including Mick Burnside, there were four of us actually, who, yes right four, yeah, who um, objected to sport and we didn’t want to take part, we’d nothing to do with it. Cause I mean, the Idea of it, it’s like today it’s like the Olympics. I mean so what, if somebody wants to run round in circles and coming back to the same place they started from you’re not achieving very much are you really! So that was the idea see. Whatever happens in sport, nothing’s achieved at the end of it! [Indecipherable] Really. So we were not keen on sport. And quite unexpectedly, er, the headmaster said to us, he said look, if you’re not going to take part in sport he said, put on your ATC uniforms on and stand by the end of the drive, there. So right, so I did. Along came a little pick-up truck with a very tall, very tall, WAAF Corporal who was Polish, and she said come with us please, or come with me please. So I thought all right, don’t know where we’re going, so we piled in the back of this pick-up truck and we went to Ingham, and the, I’d never actually been into Ingham before. I’d gone along that road of course, even, in fact I even cycled as far as Lincoln along the top road, as we called it, it’s the top road to Lincoln, you could see Lincoln cathedral actually, if you looked along that road, you can see the Spire sticking up there.
Int: You can, yes.
BL: So, I can remember we went in there, we suddenly turned off to the left, it was a right hand turn, a very sharp right hand turn, left hand turn, sorry, then there was a tall hedge on that side, on the right hand side, then we turned, suddenly again, left, very short trip and then there we were, this was the entrance to RAF Ingham. It was quite a sort of low, oh not, it didn’t make much of an impression at all. [Rustling] There were some very low brick buildings along the right hand side and along the left. We couldn’t see how far they went up to the left but they stopped abruptly on the right hand side and went through the door and the whole place was crowded with people, there were so many, but loads of people there. It was a very active station, they were all, I mean compared to the RAF, there was no slouching about sort of skiving, they were all purposefully doing something. I remember one of the first impressions I got was of a tannoy system, which was an earphone inside a cone made from a cornflakes packet, and that was their tannoy! And by God it worked too [laugh], cause it was only a small place you see. And standing there, you know, wondering what was going on and out came, up came a Polish Warrant Officer, a man of very few words, he didn’t speak very much English at all, whereas the WAAFs spoke a lot better than the fellas, the fellas were a bit slow, but the WAAFs were much better. And he said, you know, you’re going to crew with us on test flights. I said really? I mean just, so yes he said, and he pointed out, said you with navigator – that’s me - because at that time in the May of that year they had dropped the second pilot, there was only one pilot, so the navigator was in effect the second pilot, and of course he was right by the, the pilot was here, the navigator was just on the other side, further back, with his own little cabin with a door and a curtain.
Int: What was the reason for dropping to one pilot?
BL: Because they couldn’t supply them!
Int: Right.
BL: There was, I mean this was the trouble you see! There were aircrew shortages all the time. Whereas you could try and train a gunner fairly easily, or a wireless operator fairly easily, you couldn’t train pilots very easily. And besides they were dropping out you see, because they weren’t up to the job - only a certain number got through. So they decided the navigator would have enough skill to bring the aircraft back in an emergency.
Int: Right.
BL: They could take over if the pilot was killed or in any way incapacitated. So in fact acting as second, not that I thought that I’d ever be doing anything and, but we had to do everything properly. The first thing we had to do was to learn to pack our parachutes, we had to pack our own parachutes. I can still remember this. It was a long room, with long tables; a big long room with long tables. On the left hand side they were all hanging up as it were to air, they hung them up in there and put them across the table and you had to go through certain motions and there was the, a little wire thing at the top that swung thing, as if pull the parachute out of the pack, so it was all, you know, well developed, was all perfectly good pure silk. We only used silk, course it came on the black market as women’s’ clothes as well you see, [laugh] get some parachute silk! But parachutes were expensive and you had to sign for them and this sort of stuff. Cutting a long story short, what happened in the end, we went out to look for this Wellington and first of all I thought crikey what a place this is. There were two hangars, I think they were two hangars with curved rooves, which were not to be used for any purpose cause all the aircraft were out in the open and people, lots of people, were working on them. This one aircraft, the one we were going to use, was drawn up, there was a bit of a tarmac in the front of the building, a sort of concrete area which it was parked on and we had to get inside and we was, the pilot sort of showed us how to, in an emergency, to brace ourselves against the main spar which ran, made quite a big step in the middle of the Wellington, you had a big step in the middle. That was the main spar where the wing came through and if you were going to crash land, you got behind this, braced yourself against it so you didn’t get thrown forward and out. Like in a car, it’s like a safety belt.
Int: Absolutely yeah.
BL: Kept you from being chucked out. So we had to do that, then we went to our places. Oh I’d been issued with a little wallet by the way, which contained a Douglas Protractor, they’re the sort of navigational instruments which I had used before by the way cause I’d done quite a bit of navigation from Kirton Lindsay, in an Oxford I’d done some navigating, not that I got anywhere with it, well later on even the Air Squadron I didn’t get anywhere with it; I mean my navigation was pretty poor really. Anyway, we were issued with this, these, and eventually I got back to my cabin, you see, and it was lovely. I could close the door and it was all by the lamp, cause you had to see things and you had the curtain to prevent you making light outside or putting light into the fuselage, which could be seen from outside, but you had to have the window to have a look outside you see, see where you were cause you did checks on the ground. In those days navigation was DF, direction finding which was a loop aerial, you know about how that worked? The egg thing on the top, you can see it, the late Wellingtons had them and the idea was that if the loop was lying along, the lateral line of the aircraft, it was nothing. But if you turned the loop it would progressively pick up the signal, from one side or another and you had two transmitters on the ground which sent out signals, and when you heard them loud, loud and clear on both [emphasis] sides, you turned until you got the loop aerial lined up on one side and then on the other side and then you’d got yourself a fix actually, because you knew then, that in between there, the neutral would give you your position. If you turned that between the two of those, the neutral between the two, it would give you your position, which you could then plot. But of course then you had to do this regularly because of drift and things like that, so you’d get cross wind which would send you miles off course, could be bad if you’d a cross wind. Anyway, I think the first time we went in there was no Gee in the aircraft, I don’t believe so, no there couldn’t have been, otherwise I would have noticed, it was later installed the Gee, anyway, I thought yeah, settle down quite well but the thing about the Wellington, what I liked about it was that it didn’t smell, I don’t know why, but it just didn’t smell! For example the Dominie, the de Haviland Dominie, which was a plywood and fabric-ed over was the most horrible smell of hydraulic oil, fuel and dope.
Int: Dope, yeah.
BL: And it’s really quite a sickening smell, isn’t it; most unpleasant smell. Wellington didn’t smell of anything and when we looked it first, we noticed it’d got lots of holes in the fuselage, great big gaps where they’d not bothered to repair it, although the wings were patched over quite well. And anyway take, well first of all we taxied out. We couldn’t go, I looked at the airfield by the way. There was an old farmhouse, slap in the middle, with big tall trees and, there’s no runways at all, just grass, and the grass was all furrowed and pitted and things like that. It was in a really damp condition because you see where we were, this was in fact the dip side of the escarpment, the limestone slab that, which constitutes the Lincolnshire Heights, it’s a big slab of limestone, the scarp slope’s quite steep. The other slope is not so steep but it is a slope, so you get water sort of collecting there in little hollows and it doesn’t go away because off London Heath there, you’ve got quite a bit of clay so it was a really, quite a soggy place really, and it got worse if it got damp, and it had been that first time cause the weather was actually, there was low cloud, it was in summer, and it was very warm, but again overcast, like it often is in Lincolnshire. I noticed when we went round, I went round the front, the nose turret, flies squashed against the Perspex where flies had been blown against the glazing in the turret. Anyway we got in, take off point, well we didn’t go along any kind of peri track or anything, we had to get to the furthest end of the, which at that time was the northern end, the northern end of the airfield and we had to get there in order to turn round to get our take off run, and the thing was, I can remember quite clearly, we didn’t go along the side, we headed straight for the point actually, without any intermediate runway or anything like that, so we really kept to the dry points and I can remember going over, what appeared to be, the remnants of turnips, because you could hear them – bump, bump, bump, you know you could hear it shaking as it went over the tops of these turnips been left in the soil! So we got to the end and actually it was airborne in a quite remarkably short time. I was quite surprised how short it took us to take, then of course we were up and look at the countryside and so on, and then we were in cloud, and it went very dark and all the cloud vapour was coming in through the little holes in the fuselage as it got misty inside as well. [Laugh] Then there were flashes, flashes, flashes, and then suddenly we were out of the cloud and above the top, and it was like [indecipherable] in another country, great big flat snowfield it looked like, with big pinnacles, right in the sky, intensely blue sky, it was really quite deep, deep blue sky, it was absolutely brilliant sunshine.
Int: That would only be a couple of thousand feet even, wouldn’t it.
BL: Yes. It’s amazing, you know. I thought I’ll have a look at this and see, get up to the astrodome and get a better view. So I decided to do a bit of navigating, so I didn’t have a sextant though. Went up the astrodome and the thing that I noticed about it was the way the aircraft was reacting to the airflow: the tailplane was flapping up and down all the time, and when the aircraft turned, even slightly, the fuselage twisted. [Laughter] Yes, it’s quite amazing really. And so it went, I mean we just stooged around a bit until everything was okay, and nothing happened, just landed and that was it. We were taken home, the place we came from, and the following week, I don’t know, we must have done it about five odd times I think, all together during that summer, about five times I reckon, yeah. In this time we were learning more and more about what was going on and the idea was that the, we were brought along there and I think it was mainly for our education because there could have been other people on the unit that could have crewed, but you know, we were chosen to crew it you see, on the air tests – it's to do with the weights you see, didn’t have the weights [indecipherable], course the bombing doesn’t affect the weight, the bomb goes across the centre of gravity so you don’t change the COG with the bomb load, it just get more heavy that’s all. It was the second time that we went on this that, it was quite surprise, when I looked out, and I saw the pilot, the pilot did this to me with his finger, just like this, see. By God he wants me for something, so I went up there and he says, and he stood up and of course the second pilot seat was still there, but folded back. He said er, sit down he says, and then he said to me, if nose go up: push forward. But I knew that anyway and there I was, and he got out and he went down the fuselage [laugh] with this Wellington bomber at the age of fourteen, Wellington bomber! [Laugh] I couldn’t reach the pedals, but I wouldn’t ‘t adjust it at all anyway, but I’d got experience on the Link Trainer in those days just six, in the Link Trainer it was just six instruments there, you didn’t have any extra at all, just six instruments, it was just pure flying. So I did the same with this. So I made sure the artificial horizon was properly lined up and that the aircraft was flying at correct airspeed, and I checked the air speed didn’t vary. I fiddled a bit, you could do that of course; it was flying correctly before, it was only a matter of restoring it to what it was. So I thought well I’ll do a little aileron turn, [laugh] see what happens, so I turned, moved the speculums round this way and the control was so amazingly light! I didn’t expect it to be so light, there was hardly any weight at all on them - I was used to flying the Link Trainer, [crash] it came round, oh I’ve broken the thread now, what was I saying?
Int: Aileron turn, shallow.
BL: Oh yes, it came round and then I thought I’d better bring it back to where we were so I did, brought it back, I don’t know how long he was away, but he was away down the fuselage for quite a long time. So I don’t know, I don’t think he was doing anything I think he wanted to get out the way see what happened to me, cause he could get back, we had enough height for him to get back and sort things out if anything went wrong. That’s about it really. The memories of the airfield itself and where things were, because we got the impression that it was like they were in Poland when they went down to the Tatras to escape the German bombing of the airfields in the north, you know the story of that. They went down the Tatras mountains and of course, like the Germans, they were trained to live off the ground, well, like the British were typical thing in the Army, you just plunder and rape and pillage. It’s always been the same, so you don’t ask people’s pleasure, you just take what you need, in times of war, and the Germans did the same. When I was a student in Tubingen the street, the Dockstrasse, was one platoon from the, the 78th Storm Division, was the local unit, and the officer, I never knew him, he lived at the bottom, then opposite was Ulrich, the corporal, who had, who kept chickens and my landlord was there were, but he was a flight sergeant, a colour sergeant in the platoon, and we had, you know, all the people in there round about were all ex-78 apart from one who was Luftwaffe, who was a [indecipherable] pilot who I got to know quite well and a very nice chap he was too! [Laughter] He bombed the fire station in Birmingham!
Int: Really!
BL: Yes, oh yes! He said you know, you know, talking about the bombing, he said to me one time, he said we didn’t care who won the war as long as it stopped. [Laughter] The Germans had quite a good time before the war, they were quite, not the kind of place you imagine it to be.
Int: No, no. So the Polish squadrons, in order to survive in Lincolnshire, lived off the land as well.
BL: Oh yes. This was the thing, they didn’t need their rations. See, now what you’d got there at the time, I remember going along there, along the Wolds road, because people weren’t allowed to have shotguns during the war, no arms for civilians at all, apart from farmers who could shoot, have a shotgun, but you couldn’t shoot for sport any more; that was gone. So the rabbits were breeding like mad, till they had to introduce myxomatosis to control the population, that’s what came about. But the whole place was black with rabbits and I mean black because a lot of them were black rabbits and they were all over the fields leading down to the bottom of the valley along the scarp slope, because it’s in, it’s just fields just running straight down, steep fields of course, and you’ve got loads of rabbits there. You’ve got, you’ve also got -
Int: There are lakes at Fillingham and woods in that area as well I imagine.
BL: Oh yes, well there were woods just on the far, I notice it’s still there, on the far side of the airfield, up against the woods itself, the buildings are still there; they were the sleeping quarters for the aircrew. Because they’d come home at night, er in the early morning, they’d go to bed and sleep through until they started off because they went on ops every night, not like the Brits who had a tour of ops.
Int: So the tests took place in the afternoon, ready for operations that night.
DL: That’s right, and the aircraft were repaired on unit, which could be easily done because you could repair this um, er, geodetic structure thing, well, they say it’s geodetic, actually it’s really, it’s tubular sections with flattened ends and you could repair by using pop rivets.
Int: Yes.
BL: So you could use pop rivets to do, repair that and of course the engines were perfectly straightforward because the Poles already knew the engines, they’d be used to these engines. Of course if you had anything bad you’d have to get spares from somewhere. But I mean the engineers weren’t far away, so you know, you’d get spares quite easily. I remember Blyton was always having spares delivered because they a lot of trouble with the Stirlings, you know, always folding their undercarriages on landing and things like that. Anyway they slept during the day and then they went on ops during the night and the people who were actually repairing the aircraft were prepared to work all night, a bit like John, a bit like your dad, he’d work all night: get the job done. It’s the same thing you see. They prepared their own food, they shot, also, the other thing was this, there were lots and lots of pheasants in Lincolnshire and they were breeding wild, they still are! I saw one once with Robin, one crossing the road! There’s still this, they’re still breeding wild, they’re breeding like mad and other game birds too, you’d get a certain amount of grouse and partridges too, in Lincolnshire – there were quite a lot of things actually. And then of course fresh water fish, they’d go for those too, cause the Poles liked things like carp, they have carp for Christmas for example, don’t they. Well there you are. So they could live off the land. As far as vegetables were concerned, well of course farmers didn’t mind them taking vegetables from their fields because I mean they were our allies, they were working like mad, the war and so forth.
Int: Do you remember any particular characters, were there?
BL: Yes, but I can’t. The thing is you see, it comes from so many different sources, and so much information. First of all living there, in Gainsborough, and the things that led up to it, then secondly the fact I was in the RAF not far away of course, at Manby, and I was in the Sergeants Mess and of course a lot of the NCOs there, not a lot but a good number of them, were actually Polish, who didn’t want to go home to Poland because they’d lost everything kind of thing. They’d married here, and English girls, and some of them got divorced too! Or some just didn’t want to go home, and they just stayed here, and they, the RAF was their home [emphasis], and they’d remustered. I mean the Gardening Sergeant was Polish for example, we had a lot of those. And the gardening was damn good too, you know, he was a good grower of vegetables, he was, really. And the gardening side, he had other people. We had a Red Indian too, from Wyoming, was an air gunner and he couldn’t read and write. He was an interesting character that was, told me some stories about you know, uncanny sort of knowledge, yet couldn’t read or write but by gosh he’d got an uncanny knowledge of other things. There’s, things I was told by people in the RAF, and then there were other things too, well, the fact that I was Armstrong Whitworth. So I mean, I didn’t meet any Poles there particularly, but of course I was concerned with aircraft all the time and I knew, I knew bit about aircraft engineering, [chuckle] and a great defender of the Whitley, and a great defender of course of the P11C which I’ve always been very, very keen on as an aircraft because it’s just right really.
Int: Did the squadron generally, were they fairly self contained on the airfield or did they spill out into the community much?
BL: No. Not so much out, going outside into the community, as far as I remember.
Int: No.
BL: We had a lot of them at Blyton. I can remember these silver things they had on their chests, which they had wings and then decorations they’d wear on their chests you see, like chains and things, with silver things dangling from them. So as well as wearing RAF wings they wear their Polish wings too. I can’t remember these people in pubs in Gainsborough at all. But I can remember the Italian prisoners of war, in the pubs and even the German prisoners of war in the pubs. They weren’t supposed to go and have any association with us, but the Italians were great guys. Oh yes, yes. The Germans were great farm workers too, of course the Italians too, they were both of them very good on farms. That’s what we did with our prisoners of war: they were kept on military bases and they went out to work in the countryside. We had one at Manby, prisoner of war compound was at the back of I Wing just by the side of the wall that separated the rest from the officers mess. Apart from having razor wire on the top there, and I don’t think there was razor wire round the front of it, no in fact there wasn’t, apart from that, and the fact they were guarded, of course, all the time, they were quite free. I’ve got their books from their library. I’ve got some of those now. Told you about those, didn’t I.
Int: Yes, yeah.
BL: What’ll we do with these sarge, they said, shall we chuck ‘em away? I said no, give ‘em to me, I’ll get rid of ‘em, and I brought them home. They were all Nazi books you see, which the British authorities thought anything in German will do for these people! So they gave them Nazi books to read. [laugh] The Germans used to think we were mad actually. Well we are of course, as we know, still are. We still are at this moment, crazy.
Int: Living in Gainsborough were you aware of the operations that went at night? Did you see the aircraft coming and going?
Bl: Yes, you bet! God, you’ve no idea! [Emphasis]
Int: And were there enemy aircraft as well?
Bl: Yes, yes, including the flying bombs. We heard the flying bombs going over every night, till the night one stopped, because they were so loud you know; it was like a two stroke motor bike.
Int: This was the V1.
BL: The V1. Eines. The propulse jet. It’s like a motor bike there, they were going over and they were actually being launched from the air over the North Sea, to target Manchester, of all places, but they were targeting Manchester. And you could hear these things going over and then one night, one stopped. Thought crikey, cause when you hear it stop that’s going down. So we waited it, for it to go off and it did of course in the end. I though god where’s that gone, and it happened to have landed on Lea Marshes, that was all right, then that was butt of the explosion altogether. But you got a lot of aircraft coming back that were on their last legs and crashing short of the airfield, particularly Halifaxes, making for Blyton, because the Halifax was a bit unstable actually at low speeds. It could swing quite easily that’s why they enlarged the fin, big rectangular fin actually, instead of, they changed, enlarged the fin area to give it better control but it was always a bit of a dicey aircraft to handle at low speeds. And what used to happen was you’d get one coming back, it seemed to be just over the house, and you could hear one engine, sputter, sputter, sputter, then you’d hear it later on, you’d hear often the big, enormous bang when it crashed. Very loud crash. We used to go out to them actually, and see if we could do anything, but the main guards on them actually came from the Army camp at Connington. Connington camp, it’s a REME camp up there.
Int: Yes, it’s the Army, I know exactly where you are, yeah.
BL: The REME camp, they used to do the guarding of the crashed aircraft rather than the Police or the Home Guard or anything. It was the only Army unit round about so they, available in the immediate area, so they did the guarding, but we could get there before they did. I mean one came down on Copeland’s field which was just over the Avenue. I think they have the Lincolnshire Fair sometimes is on there, at least it has been, hasn’t it, Copeland’s field.
Int: Not recently, I think it’s been built on, I think I know where you mean.
BL: Well you know the Avenue, don’t you?
Int: Yes.
BL: Well just on the other side of that.
Int: The uphill side.
BL: Yes. That’s right, that’s Copeland’s field and the little ponds with newts in them I remember, very clear water, but one came down there I remember, that was a Halifax heading for Blyton, didn’t make it; all the crew killed. We got there first and we saw them, saw the crew, you know, that was pretty awful really.
Int: Hmm. Tactically, what would enemy aircraft be doing in the area because there were no major civilian targets? Were they attacking the airfields?
BL: Yes, that and reconnaissance of course. That was the business with the Me410, that was the thing that, my part in the war effort. [Laugh] The only time I’ve been, come face to face with the enemy that was. Told you about that?
Int: Er, was this when you were cycling?
BL: It was. I got me bike, a bright yellow bike, and I was heading for, I know where I was heading? What was I heading for? Oh it was my favourite place I used to go swimming, that’s right: Donna Nook. That was before even I went to Manby, before I knew it was, you know, used as a bombing range, but used to swim from there because in those days it wasn’t muddy, it was sandy. It’s changed. It was sandy all the way out and the seals were still there, but further out, right now you see them on the horizon. I used to go swimming there cause the water was very nice and it was also a wonderful bay full of wildlife, you’d got natterjack toads, you’d got sand lizards and all kinds of funny plants there, it was a real, a real wildlife haven, Donna Nook.
Int: Yes, I think it still is.
BL: Probably still is, yeah. And that’s where I was going, that’s right. And of course the trick, the usual trick was I went to, ah yes of course, Market Rasen, Woody’s Top, youth hostel.
Int: Youth hostel. I know where you are, yeah.
BL: And then I’m straight down, the left of Louth, don’t go into Louth itself, I think North Thoresby is where I went through, I think, I don’t know, it’s somewhere there, and I could get there quite easily, then, after, I stayed at Woody’s Top that night. I was of course down there by in the morning which meant I could get back to Gainsborough in one hop. So I’d cycle back to Gainsborough direct from Donna Nook, and having got up got up, got out of Market Rasen, I came up to the top of the Wolds it was somewhere near Caswell Park, the racecourse, used to be there, it still is maybe.
Int: Yeah. It's probably kind of round near RAF Ludford, actually, not far from there.
BL: Yeah, well anyway, I came up there and I got to the top of the hill and it was um, a, there was no hedges and no fences, and there were just sheep up there. So having got to the top of the hill, I sort of had a bit of a rest, had a look, and then I saw an aircraft ahead of me like that and I thought a bit low innit, what is it? And it was going quite slowly, took it some time to come up. Then I saw it was quite unmistakeably an Me410 because it took, had a face like a frog, it sloped down to the front like that, it was just like a frog, frog face was coming towards me and very low, just following the road. Oh crikey. So as it came past me, I could see, I thought then what can I do? All I did, I left me bike and lay flat on the ground and I could, I watched this aircraft go past, and it was quite slowly again, I saw the Barbette guns moving about, which the ones at the side controlled by the pilot and it’s half inch machine guns and it’s moving about, like this, they were moving about. Thought crikey gonna test his guns and I knew that he carried more ammunition than our British fighters did, the Germans did, they carried more ammo than we did, so, but instead of that it just went straight on. [Dog barking] What I did then was, I got up and looked, there was a farmhouse just across the way there and I went up the farmhouse, there was a lady in there and I said look, I’m sorry but I’ve got to make an emergency phone call, just seen an enemy aircraft heading up the road. So I got through, I got through to Market Rasen Police Station and they were quite interested in this. And they said well okay, we’ll handle this, can you give your name, like they usually do, and my address, which I did. I said you know, this is not a hoax, or any way a mistake, I’m in the ATC I do a lot of aero like recognition.
Int: Recognition.
BL: So I mean I know that it’s right. So anyway, that was it really. [Cough] I got back to school, headmaster, Hopkins, said to me we’ve just had a phone call from RAF Croxall, on your information said to tell you that we scrambled two B51Ds and they got the enemy 410 over the North Sea.
Int: Really!
BL: So was saying good work he said to me, pass on the word. So he passed on the word see. [Laughter] Oh yes. See what he did was this, he was going to fly low, till he identified his target, then the German cameras that had such good lenses, we in fact nicked their cameras in the Spitfire later on, [cough] climb to a height where they could get a good area to use their cameras to take pictures of airfields and things like dispersals of aircraft, where they were, in case they were attacked and would know where they were, [coughing]. And then it was later on that year, I was an ARP messenger boy, I had to sleep at the bottom of Spital Hill, there’s a railway bridge and on the, if you go down there and you turn right, you see some little doors in the wall.
Int: Right.
BL: That was the ARP Post.
Int: Okay.
BL: My father used to go in there and we used to stay the night there in case we were called out, you know, or bombs started, stay there, and I had to go back. I got up very early in the morning because I had to go to school and that sort of stuff. So, I remember going up Spital Hill and hearing what I knew was cannon fire, because I’d heard it before, German cannon fire, because in those days you didn’t have of course the electric ignition of the charge like the Hunter had, on the Aden guns, it had a firing pin which had to go back and forth you see, you had the also the load which charged into the breech very like this, to-ing and fro-ing, which disappeared later, so therefore cannon fire, anything higher than a rifle, went slower, rifle calibre, machine gun was quite fast, but a cannon fire was boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, that sort of thing. That’s cannon fire! And I went up the hill and I could see, because if you go up the hill, Blyton is just actually beyond Thonock Park.
Int: Yes, it is, isn’t it, yeah.
BL: Just across, Thonock Park’s there, and it’s on a ridge, and I could see flashes going off and explosions. Thought crikey, you know, they’re being shot up and it was actually, that was what had happened: the German idea was it’s like if you want to destroy a wasp’s nest, you stay near the nest and destroy the wasp coming back.
Int: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
BL: So we’d been raiding Germany and we’d be coming back damaged. The thing to do was hang around, the base, and get the bombers as they came back. When the crews were tired, they’d be injured, aircraft damaged and careless because they were home. They weren’t bothered and they never thought about being attacked and there they were and believe it or not, of course it wasn’t in the news they gave you, never saw anything in the news about things like this, but local people said this: every single aircraft coming back was destroyed, there was not one escaped, everything went. I thought well I’ll go down to Blyton. The place was closed up completely: nobody there. Nothing. No crews, no aircraft, nothing; Blyton had gone completely. That was, yeah, towards the end of the war. Well actually it was, it was actually at that time an operational unit although it wasn’t supposed to be because it always had been operational, no it's Heavy Conversion Unit, that’s what it was actually. Starting off with Wellingtons then going immediately to Stirlings, and then soon after that to Halifaxes. Never Lancasters. No Lancasters there.
Int: No. 300 Squadron, that became of them?
BL: They carried on to the end of the war, then they disbanded of course. But they were the first Polish squadron to be formed and the last to go. And they soldiered on in Bomber Command till the end. The other two Polish squadrons associated with Lincolnshire both joined Coastal Command, where they did work with reconnaissance and [rustling] destroying U-boats; they carried torpedoes.
Int: So they were, what type of aircraft, fighter aircraft or, were there any Polish fighter aircraft squadrons?
BL: [Loudly] Yes! They were the first! Do you know about the Pole fighter squadrons! Why they had separate squadrons anyway?
Int: Well I imagine it’s having to do with having been invaded and losing all their aircraft.
BL; No it’s to do with friction between British pilots and Polish pilots.
Int: Ah, right.
BL: It’s the time of Battle of Britain of course cause I mean the Battle of Britain was fought shortly after started Poland’s being overrun in 1939, the end of September, end of ’39, about a year later. Well of course there weren’t so many Polish pilots managed to get back actually, getting back in bits and pieces, dribs and drabs all the way through that time. But the first, there was the Los, of course, was the Polish Bomber, that never got put into production properly, but there were really no effective Polish bomber squadrons at the beginning of the war: they were pretty well all fighter squadrons. So they came over, when they did come, as fighter pilots. So what better, we’ll just post them to our fighter squadrons that had been fighting the Battle of Britain. So they came, and that’s when the trouble started. First of all, they wouldn’t obey the rules. They chattered over the intercom all the time, and they called up their friends by name, [emphasis] which in the RAF is absolutely non-u; you never name yourself. You’re given a position: you’re Leader, you’re Red One, you’re Red Two, you’re Red Three, Yellow One, Two, Yellow Three. [Cough] Your flights in fact are coded, in colours. And what they do is this, you say, you know, they say Red One to Red Leader, bandits four o’clock high, something like that, they’d just say that you see. Then you’d stop talking because you’d given your message, you didn’t talk more than you had to, you kept RT silence. You switch your mic off at the end of the, didn’t actually switch, off, so that you weren’t tempted sort of add anything else. But the Poles kept their microphones on all the time and they’d chatter, chatter, chatter using their names! They were making jokes throughout the battle, exhorting each other: go one sort of thing, get this one you know. I mean it was just not on; I mean they were told off about this, you should not [emphasis] do this, you have to observe our British rules. Then they tended to be freelance as well. This of course is the time when, this was actually refers to a bomber squadron but this is a story which I’ve heard in different forms. The bombing of barge in the Merse in Holland where a bomber crew was going off to do some practice bombing at a bombing range; didn’t return. Thought what’s going on, then eventually it did come back, where’s it been? Well he said, a pity to waste the bombs, I’d better find something to drop it on, so went across to Holland, cause it’s not far away from Lincolnshire is Holland, and he found this German barge and he dropped his smoke bombs on the German barge and the Germans thought it was gas so they dived into the water. [Laugh] And Bunny’s reputed to have said is: “Every little helps”, which is Tesco’s motto! [Laughter] So I don’t know where this came from, I mean it’s a funny thing, but “Every little helps”. That’s what he’s supposed to have said. I’ve got it in print somewhere because it’s passed into RAF lore you know, as to who was this. There were stories about, for example, about the Polish pilots being called communists, and oh you got us into this mess anyway, you, you can fight for yourself, we wouldn’t have had to come to your rescue. That caused them to come to blows a few times. So it was decided then to separate the Poles from the RAF all together, so that, so they had their own command, and there was a Commander in Chief, but the chap was Sikorsky, was the Commander in Chief of all [emphasis] the Polish forces in the country and you had one who was in charge of the Air Force, I’ve forgotten his name, he was another Polish fellow, and they, the thing about Sikorsky was that he didn’t last. He, he died actually, shortly after he came to this country, because he discovered about the massacre of the Polish officers – you’ve heard about that?
Int: No.
BL: Oh, well this was done by the er, Russians I think yes it was, Russians, who decided to massacre the Polish officer elite, in one go. Which they did. Pretty well. They shot them all, you know, in, en masse and it broke his heart so much he just lost all heart you see, and he died actually. And er, it’s quite, you know, it’s very interesting about the way, it’s, the way these leaders feel about the Polish people. I mean like who is it, the pianist, who’s another one, wasn’t he, the one who, was he Prime Minister or President of Poland?
Int: I don’t know.
BL: Oh you do! “Dangerous Moonlight”, it’s made a film about him, Paderewski, Paderewski, he was a concert pianist, but was also either Prime Minister or President of Poland. The film about that is called “Dangerous Moonlight”, it’s by Anton Wahlbrook. If you see it any time, it’s the television it’s shown; that’s about the Polish Brigades. Lech Walesa is another one, he’s, the way that they sort of stubbornly resisted all attempts to make them communist. [Laugh] You see they weren’t communist no, although the world thought they were you see, yeah. Then as I said, the way the Poles could survive on their own and of course when they went down to the Tatrus Mountains it’s, I’ve seen a film of this. It’s interesting, you’ve got broad rivers, which are fast flowing too, cliffs, forests and little bits of grass there between, which are in between woodland – bit like Ingham! [Laugh] [Cough] No grass and of course then you could easily move on to another airfield if you want to, which they did, and they moved progressively south. But they lived by hunting in the forest. And of course there you’ve got things like deer, wild boar, got bears, [chuckle] yeah, some people eat bears even – the Red Indians did -and so you know, they were well able to look after themselves wherever they went. It was the same, just the same at Ingham!
Int: Right, are we.
BL: You’ve got to, really, interesting thing about this is, the fact is when you come I’ll find it for you, remember this, Hymn for all Slavs, national anthem, [singing] Bunnies All Furry, a Russian, Russian song [singing].
Int: That’s the Lincolnshire Poacher!
BL: It is! So what they say about the Poles in Lincolnshire. [Laughter] You’re home from home, aren’t you.
[Other]: You wouldn’t happen to know how to say one to five in Russian would you?
BL: What, one to five?
[Other]: Count one to five in Russian.
BL: I think I could but I can’t remember. [Laughter] Oh yes, I can, but I can’t remember actually.
[Other]: It’s Tim, Tim wants to know.
BL: Who wants it?
Int: Tim.
[Other]: Tim. Am I spoiling your thing?
Int: Right. I think that’s enough to be going on with really, there’s a lot to, have to try and remember as much as you can really, cause there are a lot of people who are interested in the war time history of that area.
BL: Well what I’d be interest is that, in a place like Connington we also had a very high Polish population, but had their own radio programme one time you know. “Poles Apart” it was called, half in English, half in Polish. And by the way, the Alma’s now gone; it’s going to be a manicure parlour, course the market killed that because cause there’s a Polish stall in the market you see. I just wonder is there anybody in Coventry has got connections with these people?
Int: Possibly, yeah.
BL: You see it’s not only the only people that can remember, I’ve also got the, people may be relatives of people who’ve been killed. I’ve got the names of all the Polish airmen who were killed. You know, it’s all there in the literature. I’ve got all the captains, the pilots, of the aircraft that’d been killed so the crew can be identified from that.
Int: Yeah, yeah.
BL: There is a Polish War Memorial with the names on it too which, it would be interesting if anybody in Coventry could throw any light on this as well.
Int: Hmm. Right well I’ll just.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Brian Llewellyn
Description
An account of the resource
Brian Llewellyn was a member of the Air Training Corps during the war and spent time with the RAF as well as the Polish Air Force. He talks about his time in Lincolnshire, including various stations he visited and his first flight. Brian had many different experiences in the area and speaks about some of these as well as the Poles and their history.
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:56:56 audio recording
Identifier
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SRAFIngham19410620v030001-Audio
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
300 Squadron
bombing
ground personnel
Me 410
prisoner of war
RAF Blyton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/278/3431/PJamesDWK1701.2.jpg
b5e9d0060de6ccdc493b23953cb58e00
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/278/3431/AJamesDWK170120.1.mp3
ea9c15273fffc4beb797d784feaed5ba
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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James, Douglas Walker Keeston
Douglas Walker Keeston James
Douglas W K James
Douglas James
Jim James
D W K James
D James
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Douglas Walker Keeston "Jim" James (b.1925). He flew operations as an air gunner with 460 Squadron.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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James, DWK
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewee is Douglas James, named Jim, Flight Lieutenant, Jim James. The interview is being conducted at Mr James’ home in Branston, Lincoln, on Friday the 20th of January 2017. Also present at the interview is Mrs -
[Other]: Nancy.
MC: Nancy James and Mr -
[Other]: David Schofield.
MC: David.
[Other]: Schofield.
MC: Schofield. So thank you Jim, for agreeing to this interview. Just want to start with a bit about your life history, so if you could tell me a bit about when and where you were born.
DJ: Where I was born?
MC: Yes.
DJ: I was born in India.
MC: Were you born in India! When was that?
DJ: Near Calcutta.
MC: When was that?
DJ: 1925.
MC: 1925. And what date? What date was that Jim?
DJ: I’m ninety two near, coming up to ninety two.
MC: Ah, right. And you, what did your parents do then, for you to be born in India?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: What did your parents do for you to be born in India?
DJ: My dad was in a plantation first, Plantation Manager, and that’s how I came to be born, and he went out to India to do the job and so I was born out there.
MC: And how long did you live in India then?
DJ: I came to England when I was nine years of age.
MC: And did, you obviously went to school in India.
DJ: In India, yes, a junior school, yes. I remember one occasion, we went for a picnic, we’d only be about nine or ten. We went to, in the grounds of a cathedral, to have a picnic, and as we were there an earthquake started. Oh my God! Steeple came tumbling down. Luckily we’d moved well away now, but big cracks appeared everywhere, the ground was, but it scared the hell like, out of us, oh, and the steeple kept tumbling down.
MC: Were there many people injured?
DJ: No, no, nobody injured.
MC: Oh, that’s very good.
DJ: Actually we all moved very quickly. We heard the, felt the ground tremble first and then down came the steeple.
MC: So you came to England when you were nine years old, your father moved back here, you came back with your father and mother? You came back to England with your father and mother.
DJ: Yes. My dad had a lot of illness and when we got to England he suffered a lot of trouble with his throat. I think a lot of it, later, was through his smoking. He used to smoke very strong tobacco, he even smoked pipe tobacco!
MC: You can’t believe it these days, can you, no.
DJ: I couldn’t believe it. Digger Flake, he used to smoke. He died eventually of cancer, of the throat.
MC: So whereabouts, when you came back to the UK, did you live?
DJ: In Withington, Manchester. South Manchester, Manchester 20, Withington.
MC: So that’s where you continued your schooling.
DJ: Yeah. I never went to high school though.
MC: So how old were you when you left school then?
DJ: When I left school?
MC: How old were you?
DJ: Fourteen.
MC: Fourteen.
DJ: I missed, missed my scholarship because I’d been ill so long, had tonsilitis, tonsilitis, tonsilitis through coming to this country. This country didn’t really, didn’t gel with me, you know, it was cold.
MC: So what did you think to your schooldays in England then, in relation to your school in India?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: What did you think to your schooldays in relation to your school in India?
DJ: Oh, I haven’t got many recollections of India.
MC: Now what about in the UK, in England, school in England. Did you enjoy your school days?
DJ: Oh, I did, very much so. I remember once we were playing out in the playground with the sports master and we were playing cricket, and he hit this ball, hard, it bounced straight over the wall, over next door’s garden. So I was picked on to go and fetch it again. So I had to go all round, now instead of going all round the road, I thought I’d just get it over the fence there, but there were spikes and lo and behold as I got one leg over the wall, over the spikes, the wall collapsed and I was stuck on spikes, in my bottom and my hands, and I didn’t dare move. And the sports master called time and they wondered where I was, he says ‘go down and see if he’s in the toilet’. He went down to the toilet and then he saw me stuck on the spikes, he said oh, and he started crying. So he went to the sports master and said ‘you you’d better come and help, he’s stuck on the spikes’. So the sports master came down straight away and took me on the bus to the Royal Infirmary and there they cleaned me up, all the spike holes and everything else. It was quite an experience. [Laughter]
MC: It certainly was!
DJ: They had to probe all the holes that had been made in my bottom because they were rusty you see, so they had to sterilise every hole with a steel thing, and they gave me a penny for every stitch they put in. [Chuckle]
MC: How old were you then, when that happened?
DJ: I’d be about nine. Nine or ten.
MC: So you left school at fourteen. What did you do when you left school then?
DJ: I went to the Amalgamated Society, Society of Woodworkers, I went in the post, they put me in charge of the postal room and I stayed there for a while ‘till my call up came. I said goodbye and cheerio.
MC: So you were called up were you?
DJ: No, no I volunteered.
MC: You volunteered. What year was that?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: What year was that you volunteered?
DJ: Oh blimey. I can’t remember.
MC: You say you volunteered.
DJ: For air gunner.
MC: You volunteered for the Royal Air Force. Did you choose air gunner ?
DJ : Pardon?
MC: Did you choose air gunner or did they offer that to you?
DJ: No, no, I’d set my heart [emphasis] on air gunner. I’d seen posters of air gunners with their full guns and everything, that impressed me. I remember at the Selection Board, the Wing Commander there said ‘do you know what the life of an air gunner is?’ I said ‘I haven’t a clue’. He said ‘eight hours! That’s the average length of time an air gunner lives’, he said ‘and this letter isn’t signed by your father either, so you’d better get home, take this letter home again and get your father to sign the letter saying he agrees to you volunteering as an air gunner’. So off I took it, back home, my dad’s signature was very easy to copy, so I copied his name and signature, saying that I agree that he, I should go as air gunner and that was it.
MC: How old were you then?
DJ: I was eighteen.
MC: You’d reached eighteen had you.
DJ: Eighteen and a half.
MC: So what made you join the Royal Air Force? I mean you could have been a gunner somewhere else, but you wanted to be an air gunner.
DJ: It just appealed to me. Oh no, I was in the Air Training Corps as well, you know, the ATC. That’s what made me go in the Air Force.
MC: So where did you first go? Your recruit training. Where was that?
DJ: My what?
MC: Your recruit training, when you first joined.
DJ: Oh, London.
MC: In London.
DJ: St John’s Wood.
MC: Oh yes.
DJ: Got injections and all, bloomin’ hell, played hell! Oh! They murdered [emphasis] us with those injections.
MC: What about drill training and basic training, did you do a lot of that initially? Your basic training, drill training? Basic training.
DJ: In London, yes.
MC: That was all in London.
DJ: St John’s Wood, that was the basic, yes, and then we went up to Bridgnorth.
MC: Bridgenorth. And what was Bridgenorth? What did you do at Bridgenorth?
DJ: We did very little! Very little! Most of the time we spent drinking. [Laugh] I remember.
MC: But what was Bridgenorth, was that for your trade training, your gunnery training or was that?
DJ: My gunnery training, Dalcross, Inverness.
MC: You went from Bridgenorth to up to Inverness. You did your gunnery training at Inverness.
DJ: At Dalcross, yes. That’s where the Queen’s Flight, it lands still. When she goes up to Edinburgh, she lands there still.
MC: So was that where you had your first flight, your first flight?
DJ: Yes. It was a thrill and a half!
MC: You loved it.
DJ: But I remember when I got on to, for experience, on the squadron, I got in the rear turret, I thought the damn thing was going to fall off! [Laugh] When they turned the turret to the wind, the wind was hitting it like that [slap] and I was going, oh my god this is going to fall off!”
MC: Was that in, when you went to Inverness?
DJ: No, that was on the squadron.
MC: So what did you, what aircraft were you flying in, at Inverness?
DJ: Wellingtons, oh, yeah, Wellingtons, yes. Oh no, no, it wasn’t, Ansons, Ansons.
MC: Oh, Ansons. Yeah. So how long were you there doing your gunnery training?
DJ: Just about, I think about two months, three months and from there, Dalcross, I went to a squadron then.
MC: Did you not go to a Operational Training Unit?
DJ: That was, yes, before the squadron.
MC: Whereabouts was that? That was, you were saying about your lessons - you weren’t paying attention?
DJ: No, I wasn’t paying attention. He caught me once climbing the girders when he was lecturing. ‘You – come down here you fool!’ I remember that very clearly.
MC: So from your gunnery training you went to Wellingtons at?
DJ: Wellingtons was Seighford.
MC: Ah, Seighford, yes.
DJ: Near Stafford.
MC: That was, was that an Operational Training Unit was it?
DJ: No, no, it just a training unit.
MC: Gunnery training, yes. And you flew Wellingtons there.
DJ: Yes. We baled out there.
MC: Did you! What was the reason for that?
DJ: The Americans shot us down. [Laugh] We’ve been sworn to silence ever since! Our Station Commander, when we got back to our unit, said you are not to tell one person [emphasis] that the Americans shot you down. They are our allies and we don’t want any friction, so all seven of you, keep your lips sealed.
MC: Was that in a Wellington?
DJ: Yes. What happened? We went on a leaflet raid, telling the, propaganda raid, telling the French population: keep a stiff upper lip, do everything possible to upset the Germans and they said it’ll be a quiet trip for you, go over Paris, come back, okay. Paris knows what height you’re flying at and everything. So we went there, we went to Saumur, Saumur, fifty miles south of Paris, and coming back the Americans let fly at us. Bang, bang! First of all they shot the port engine out, caught on fire straight away.
MC: It was ground fire was it?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: It was ground fire that they shot at you? Not attacked by another aircraft.
DJ: And they knew what time and height we were coming at, and we weren’t allowed to tell anybody.
MC: Yes, I notice you put just baled out in your log book, yeah, and so that was, then you went to Ingham?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: You went to Ingham.
DJ: England?
MC: Ingham. Gunnery Flight. It says 1481 Gunnery Flight, at Ingham.
DJ: I can’t see that, upside down.
MC: And again you, so you must have gone from Seighford to Ingham. Where did you go from there?
DJ: From Seighford, we went to a bomber station then.
MC: Oh, is this one the one at Sandtoft?
DJ: Yes.
MC: Sandtoft. What squadron was that?
DJ: It wasn’t a squadron, Training Unit.
MC: Ah, it was a Training Unit was it, oh right.
DJ: A first experience for the captain, skipper of four engined aircraft.
MC: What about crewing up? What about crewing up? Whereabouts did you crew up?
DJ: Stafford.
MC: Stafford.
DJ: We were all in a jumble in a hangar just walking round. And a pilot would come to you: would you like to join my crew as an air gunner, wireless op, anything else? And that’s how you crewed up.
MC: Did you know any of them beforehand?
DJ: No, not a soul, just whether you liked the look of the skipper or not, so you made up a crew.
MC: Been told many stories about crewing up. They just put you all together and you picked your own crew.
DJ: Yeah.
MC: It was quite amazing, yeah. So when you went to Sandtoft, you picked up your other crew members ‘cause you, on Wellingtons you would have five crew, so you picked up new crew members did you, for seven man crew, on the Halifaxes, Halifax?
DJ: Lancasters.
MC: You did fly Halifaxes though, didn’t you.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: You did fly the Halifax in training.
DJ: I did fly, We didn’t like it. They give us a choice, said you can either fly the Halifax or the Lancaster, take your pick. So they sent us off on one trip in the Halifax and we didn’t like it.
MC: That was at Sandtoft. That was at Sandtoft?
DJ: Yeah
MC: That was there. And then you, from there you went to Lancaster Finishing School.
DJ: Binbrook.
MC: Hemswell?
DJ: Sandtoft.
MC: Hemswell.
DJ: Hemswell, that was the Finishing School.
MC: Yeah, and you liked the Lancaster.
DJ: Then we went on to the Lancasters. Posted to squadrons then.
MC: How long did you spend at Hemswell?
DJ: I think about six weeks, not long.
MC: And that was your regular skipper then, was it?
DJ: Yes, yes. Getting to know each other, you know.
MC: Who was your regular skipper then?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Who was your regular skipper?
DJ: Doug, Doug Jolly.
MC: Ah Jolly, yes, ‘cause I know his -
DJ: One coincidence, when we crewed up. He said ‘now when we’re in the aircraft you call me skipper because there’s two of us called Doug and that could be very [emphasis] confusing, so in the aircraft you call me skipper, never [emphasis] Doug. The Doug is the rear gunner’ so he made that quite clear because it could be quite awkward.
MC: So you got posted then to the squadron.
DJ: Binbrook, yes.
MC: At Binbrook, 460 Squadron.
DH: Yes. The Lincolnshire Wolds, now I’ve got a tale to tell you about Binbrook. We were going on a raid to Germany, we had a full bomb load on, and the skipper, off we went down the runway. I was in the rear turret, I thought we’re travelling very fast considering we’ve got a bomb load on, and we were oh, absolutely moving! And then I heard the skipper saying, ‘help me’, to the engineer, ‘help me pull this aircraft out!’ At the end of the runway there’s a valley so you had to have loads of power to make sure you never fell down into the valley when you took off. The silly engineer hadn’t locked down the flaps and by the time we came to take off, the flaps had come up again and he was struggling: ‘Help me Help me! Get this’, and because we weren’t climbing, we weren’t getting up. So the engineer came to his help and he got on the handle there again and at last we cleared the bay but we came to very near disaster, and the skipper didn’t let it go at that. When we got back, he said ‘you could have cost us our lives’, to the engineer. ‘Do you realise you could have cost us our lives? But you hadn’t locked the flaps’. He said ‘yes, I’m sorry’.
MC: Very close, easy done, well, not easy done but it’s very close to disaster.
DJ: He said ‘sorry isn’t good enough for me’, and he said to the rest of the crew ‘do I change him? Do I get another engineer?’ We all said ‘look, we are all entitled to one mistake, he made one, I know it could have cost us our lives but we’re all alive, I say we keep him’. And he went round the whole crew as to whether we keep him: we all said yes.
MC: And he learnt his lesson.
DJ: Yes. [Laugh]
MC: I notice your first raid was to Essen then. You can remember that?
DJ: Yes. Oh, the town on fire, oh blimey. We wondered how anybody lived [emphasis] there, you know, with the bombing. The whole town seemed to be on fire, but it obviously wasn’t.
MC: Must have been quite a shock really, as your first raid.
DJ: It was, it was quite a shock; I became immune to it.
MC: Then you went to, then you, number two was Bonn.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Number two was Bonn, you bombed Bonn, did a raid to Bonn?
DJ: Oh yes.
MC: And then you went on to Cologne. That was a big raid in Cologne, wasn’t it?
DJ: That was a big raid, very big raid. It’s a sight when you’re up there and you see a thousand bombers in the air at the same time, it’s awe inspiring, it really is, and it gives you, a bit of, you know, as though they’re guarding you when in actual fact they’re just joining you. You feel very safe when you see a thousand bombers round you.
MC: Did you have a regular aircraft?
DJ: Yes. U – Uncle.
MC: I noticed you did fly a few different ones but most of the raids were U – Uncle. Did you have a logo on your aircraft? Did you have a picture?
DJ: No, the skipper never, we were never asked if we wanted one. I can’t remember them refusing. They all had something painted on them, most of them.
MC: Did you, on the Cologne raid, did you come straight home from that? Because I noticed it says you returned from Hethel.
DJ: Hethel, yes, we had fog, we couldn’t land at our aerodrome we had to divert to Hethel so that’s where we went. Oh, and next day, as is customary when you land at a different airport to shoot up the Air Flying Control, you know, and our skipper was mad as hell, he was an Australian, and we all took off, taking a dive at Air Control and pulling away going, but they were all Australians you see, they’re mad as hell, honestly, and they were getting a bit too near Flying Control so they started firing off reds to say [loudly] ‘no more, no more flying here!’ I think they got really scared thinking they were going to hit the Flying Control.
MC: That’s an interesting point. How come you came to join an Australian squadron?
DJ: They just happened to be there.
MC: Yeah, obviously there to make up numbers.
DJ: The whole squadron was Australian, the skipper. The Station Commander was Australian, Group Captain Hutton. [glass knocked]
[Other]: Oops. Tissue.
DJ: Taking turns.
MC: When you were shooting up Flying Control you said?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: When you were shooting up Flying Control.
DJ: Yes. One after another. They eventually got so scared they fired off the reds: ‘No more you mad idiots – go away!’ And we took off, the skipper came up to Flying Control and I swear he was going to go right through it, and at last second he pulled up and all my ammunition in my turret all came out the boxes all over the floor, oh my god! And all he did was laugh his head off. He says ‘that was a good one, wasn’t it’, and I said ‘yes all my blasted ammunition’s on the floor!’
MC: So your next, after Cologne, your next night operation was Münchengladbach.
DJ: Oh yes. There was nothing much to report on much of them, with them, you know, you just had to keep your eyes out looking for fighters coming at you.
MC: Did you meet much flak on that?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Did you meet much flak on that?
DJ: Oh bloomin’ hell, yes.
MC: There’s always flak is there.
DJ: Oh, always flak. The groundcrew mend the holes in the aircraft. The shells would burst about three foot away from us.
MC: And then operation number six was Gelsenkirchen. Remember much about that?
DJ: No, no. There was just one further away, the most, long one, was about ten hours’ flight.
MC: Ah, you did, and you did Nuremburg. Nuremburg.
DJ: No, further even.
MC: Yeah, but Nuremburg was a long operation, wasn’t it.
DJ: Oh yes.
MC: That was a -
DJ: A heavy, you didn’t know whether you’d come back alive or not, you went to Nuremburg, it was so heavily defended.
MC: Then you went on to Hannover.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Hannover.
DJ: That was a dolly that was, no trouble there. [Laugh]
MC: And Hanau. Where was Hanau? H a n a u. Hanau, I don’t know that one.
DJ: Doesn’t ring a bell.
MC: A fairly long one, it was a six hour operation. Operation number nine was Merseburg. Merseburg. That was a long operation - eight hours.
DJ: Yes, and in the turret it gets tiring, I assure you. But you just had to keep alert, you know, your life and the life of the six crew members depended on you as air gunner, you had to be wide awake, every minute of flight.
MC: From the stories I’ve heard, that was the secret, was to keep awake, keep alert.
DJ: And they gave us tablets to keep us awake.
MC: Wakey wakey pills! [Chuckle]
DJ: They worked all right, they kept us awake and what we liked when we got back from a raid, [cough] we had to go to the briefing room to be examined, what we saw over the target and we saw tables and tables full of whisky, little cups of whisky for everybody, all lined up. But the point is, quite often or not you were too damned tired to enjoy it, you really were, you just wanted your bed!
MC: Did you have a meal when you got back?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Have a meal when you got back?
DJ: Yes. Yes. Sausages.
MC: Oh, sausages!
DJ: Oh god, I swore I’d never eat another sausage! Sausage this, sausage that, sausage this, oh!
MC: So operation continued. How many operations, all told, did you do?
DJ: Twenty nine.
MC: Twenty nine.
DJ: [Cough] The skipper did thirty. He had to go on his first op [cough] as a – [cough]
MC: You saw one sight of a?
DJ: A Lancaster, ablaze from one end to the other, she was diving down to its death, crew and all, nobody baled out. I’ll never forget that sight.
MC: Oh yes. They do have an effect on you.
DJ: It did yes. You could see, from the rear turret you had a grandstand view of going down, down, straight down to the earth. You couldn’t live in that one, you know, in the end.
MC: What about your experience of night fighters? Did you come across the night fighters?
DJ: We came across but none attacked me, not one, throughout the whole war not one fighter attacked me.
MC: Didn’t they?
[Other]: What about the?
DJ: End of the war this Messerschmitt 110 flew over us but he didn’t attack us, he just flew about fifty feet above us. He was obviously going home.
MC: This was at the end of the war. Was it?
DJ: It didn’t want to bother, you know.
MC: He didn’t want to get hit.
DJ: And I didn’t open fire. I think if I’d opened fire on him I’d have shot him down because he was so low, just over us. It was so near the war ending he must have thought he’d had enough now.
MC: So Mannheim, number ten, that was a third of the way through, number ten was Mannheim.
DJ: Mannheim, yes, they all, the towns were heavily [emphasis] defended. There wasn’t one you could go and say oh this’ll be easy. Every [emphasis] town was heavily defended. They put the guns right round the town in a circle and they put them so you, they knew that by the laws of average they’d hit somebody, because you had to fly through this barrage of flipping flak and they said well that’s the way to do it and that’s what they resorted to eventually: box ack-ack, make a box of it you’d have to fly through the ack-ack and either your number was up or it wasn’t.
MC: I notice you did the Politz raid. The oil refineries at Politz.
DJ: Yes. That was a long raid, wasn’t it.
MC: Mmm. Yeah. Eight and a half hours. But one of the longest obviously was the infamous one of Dresden.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Dresden, you did. That was the long raid.
DJ: That Churchill took, and give Churchill this. Every raid had to be agreed by Churchill, right. Every raid had to be passed by him. At the end of the war he denied everything, being connected with the war even, he denied that he’d agreed to have a Dresden, because Dresden thought they’d get away with it, they told us we’re a undefended town now. It was right near the end of the war, so don’t bomb us, we’re undefended now they said, but we did, we had one and wiped them out.
MC: And what about Harris. Bomber Harris, Arthur Harris.
DJ: Oh he was a belter, he really was. He really was great. He gave us such heart, he used to come round the squadrons saying hello. He was a South African, Bomber Harris was, oh he was wonderful. He gave everybody encouragement all the way through.
MC: Yeah. You did a few more raids after Dresden. Dortmund, Duisburg, Essen again. Daylight raids then, you started some, later on you were doing daylight raids. Daylight raids, you did some daylight raids to Essen, and Dortmund. How different was it to be doing a daylight raid to a night raid? Obviously you could see the aircraft more, the other aircraft.
DJ: [Cough] Yes, yes, daylight raids were a dodgy thing because they could see you and you held your breath when you were put on notice on the notice board you were down for a daylight raid, oh bloomin’ hell, and you just got on with it. At North Weald, and the skipper was Douglas Bader, and we were just landing there for an overnight stay and the next day an American colonel landed at the aerodrome, and Bader was a very good looking man, very handsome fellow and female officers all used to drool over him. When they were at the dining room table he’d always have two female officers sitting at his right and left of him. He knew he was good looking, you know, and he had been such a good hero with those bloomin’ legs of his. It was amazing how he could move, absolutely amazing.
MC: So you, how did you finish up at North Weald then?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: How did you finish up at North Weald then?
DJ: Oh, we finished up at North Weald for the night, and this colonel landed and he said to Bader - we were at the dining table - he said to Bader, oh no, Bader said to him, to the colonel, ‘I bet I can land quicker, by taking off and landing, quicker than you can do in your Mustang’. So he says ‘okay, I’ll take you on a bet’. Mind, I don’t know how much they laid the bet for, but everybody in the station turned out to see this. Bader took a, lost the toss, he had to go first. He took off in his Spitfire, turned it over on its back and landed straight down and everybody gave a great cheer, we thought that was the winning thing. Oh, not for this American in the Mustang, oh my god, he made it talk, he took off and just turned it straight over on its back and landed, and won it hands down! Where the Spitfire had to do a turn and land, this Mustang just went over, bang!
MC: Just done a full loop, ground loop. So your last operation was Kiel, I noticed.
DJ: Kiel.
MC: Kiel.
DJ: The port.
MC: That was the –
DJ: There’s a battleship there.
MC: Battleship, the Admiral Scheer. You sunk that.
DJ: Yeah, we didn’t, not, didn’t hit it, but the bombs dropped right round it, caused such an explosion, you know, it tipped the battleship over. We didn’t hit it; nobody hit it.
MC: So, it’s like you were saying about, you hear many stories, and you saying about when you said you baled out, you know, during training.
DJ: Oh, that was hair raising. It was, they told us before we took off, at Seighford this was, and we took off in the Wellingtons, this will be a dolly of a trip for you, you know, no problem. You’ll all go there, drop the leaflets and come sailing back home. Oh no. Six of us went, one got back. It was, we had to go over Paris, fly past Paris and go further down, Saumur.
MC: Oh yeah, you said Saumur, yes. So when you, whereabouts were you when you baled out?
DJ: Oh, when they let fly at us, the Americans, they shot the starboard engine straight off on fire and skipper said and ‘the other one’s been hit as well, so I don’t think we’ll make England, we might have to bale in the sea’. Coming back we were losing height rapidly, where the port engine was leaking very badly, he said ‘I doubt if we’ll get to England’, he said ‘we might have to land in the sea’. Oh, we were all holding our breath and we staggered along and the starboard engine was out, the skipper put the fire out and we were losing height very rapidly and a lot of the equipment for the wireless op was all shot up and everything and he said ‘I doubt we’ll make England chaps, keep your fingers crossed’. So we all kept our fingers crossed and he said ‘now we’re crossing the coast we’re going to cross the Channel now, we’re going, yes, we’re on our way, now we’ll see whether if we land there or not’. And he couldn’t, the wireless op couldn’t get in touch with any station, all his wireless equipment was buggered up, so he said ‘yes, yes we’re gonna land! We’re gonna have to bale out’, we couldn’t find out where we were, to land it. So I said oh my god’, baling out, oh bloomin’ hell, that put the wind up me that did, oh, that put the wind up me.
MC: In a Wellington how did you bale out? How did you get out?
DJ: Through the nose, all of us went out through the bomb aimer’s.
MC: So you had to come back from your turret and go out the nose. That was in England of course, and whereabouts did you land – where’d you come down?
DJ: Oh. Blimey, it’s gone again.
MC: No, that’s okay. So you landed safely; you were okay.
DJ: Yeah. We did, the skipper said ‘get out quick! She’s going to cut the last engine and we’ll have to crash’, and crashing in a Wellington was awful, because a fabric aircraft, he says ‘bale out quick!’ So we got out of the nose of the aircraft, went out one after the other. They always said, say count three before you pull your zipper. I said ‘one’ - boom! [Laughter] I was that frightened honestly, I just said ‘one’ – I still had the handle in my hand when I landed! Oh, then when I landed, I landed very heavily and I went back and knocked my head on the floor and knocked myself out, and when I came to I thought I was in Germany. I thought right, do what they tell you, roll your parachute up now, in a tight ball, put it in the hedge so the Germans can’t find it. So I went and did this and I started walking. They said now, when you bale out in England you find the nearest house and ask for help, using the telephone. I walked and I walked and I walked. Eventually found this farmhouse. I said ‘can I use’, oh, I had to knock at the door and the upstairs window opened and a gun popped out. ‘Yes, who are you?’, ‘I’m an RAF flyer’, ‘how do I know you are?’, I said ‘we’re not allowed to carry any identification except my blood group’, yeah. This was conversation was going through the window down, and his two daughters were there with him, and his wife. I said ‘we’re not allowed to carry identification on any raid’, I said ‘you’ll have to take my word for it’, I said ‘can I use your phone and he said ‘we’re not on the phone’. [Laugh] Oh no, and I’d walked flippin’ ages! Because they’re very strict about that, if you bale out, you land, you make for the nearest telephone, for the police to know where you are. I said ‘oh blimey, I’m not walking any more, I’ve had it’. I had on all my full flying kit and everything on, you know, I thought I’m not walking another inch and the farmer said ‘you can go to sleep on this couch, you know, if I bring you some blankets’ and what have you. I said ‘thank you very much, I can’t walk another inch’, still had my flying boots on. Oh, I just looked at this settee and just zonked straight out you see. Next morning, knock on the door, he answered it and I heard American voice saying, ‘Say man, have you seen English flier round here?’ And she said ‘yes, he’s asleep on the couch here’. ‘I’ll give him the couch’ he says, he was a big American sergeant, said ‘I’ll give him couch, we’ve been looking all night [emphasis] for him’. Said, ’well he’s been here’. ‘Well he should have phoned us!’ She said ‘we’re not on the phone’. ‘Oh’. But it didn’t save me from the rocket, he said’ we’ve searched all night long for you and here you are comfortable’.[laughs] Oh I slept like a log.
MC: So they took you back to base did they?
DJ: Yes. They took me back to American base who had shot, I didn’t mention that they’d shot us down. I thought no, I don’t want to start a war here. [Chuckle] So I was taken to this American base, given a hearty breakfast, and then this plane came, landed to take us back to our aerodrome. Oh, but he really didn’t half play hell with me for not telephoning. I said ‘I’d walked for ages and don’t forget’ I said to them, ‘I had my whole flying gear on as well! How much longer do you think I could walk?’ They said ‘walk till you find a telephone!’ You couldn’t win an argument, you couldn’t, no matter what you said, you couldn’t win it.
MC: So of all the operations you did, does anything stand out particularly that was the worst, you know? I mean I know you did some long ones.
DJ: Nuremberg was very hot, very hot. Oh yes, they really let fly at Nuremburg, but they were all one, much alike, you know, because the flak was so thick when you got to each station, each town, you couldn’t tell the difference; the ack-ack was terrific. You just thought well if they hit us, they hit us, that’s all there is to it. You knew it would be a short life then, if they hit you. [Pages turning]
MC: So finishing your tour at um, you finished your tour at 460 Squadron?
DJ: Yes.
MC: What happened when you finished your tour? Where did you go from there?
DJ: I went to India, at my request.
MC: Oh you got posted to India!
DJ: Yeah. After the war was over I went straight to the Adjutant, I said ‘I wanted to be posted to India, Adj, can you get me there?’ I wasn’t commissioned yet, and he said ‘you want what?’ I said ‘I want to go to India’. He said ‘you must be mad, everybody’s leaving India!’ I said ‘well I was born there, I still have relations there, I want to go to India’. He said ‘I can get you on an aircraft tomorrow if you want’, he said ‘we’ll get rid of you that quick! I said ‘okay’. So they posted me to India.
MC: So whereabouts in India were you born?
DJ: Near Calcutta.
MC: And when you got posted back, where did you go to?
DJ: I was born at Asinsol, about seven miles from Calcutta, I was born there. My mum was a nurse, a midwife.
MC: So when you got, after you finished your tour and you got posted back to India, whereabouts did you go to?
DJ: India. First posting was down to Poona. [Cough] You’ve heard of Poona, everybody’s heard of Poona. The RAF were banned from the Officers Club there. You know what they did? The mad RAF? They got cigarette packets and lit them and put them on the floor, the dance floor, and pretended it was a flare path and set fire to the building, set fire to the whole damned building! And so we were banned from there evermore. [Laughter] And that was our visit to Poona.
MC: So when did you get your commission?
DJ: Commission.
MC: Did you get commissioned?
DJ: Yes. I got to Flight Lieutenant.
MC: When?
DJ: I got commissioned when I was at Binbrook.
MC: Ah, when you was at Binbrook. You got your Pilot Officer.
DJ: But authorities to me, had been told by Air Ministry don’t pass anybody for a commission right, we’ve got enough officers [cough] well that isn’t very heartening. I said to the Adjutant, ‘can I have the papers to be, for a commission’, he said ‘don’t you know the war’s over and we’ve got loads of commissions?’ I said ‘I do sir, but I still want the papers’. He said ‘well why waste our time?’ I said ‘I’m sorry but it’s my prerogative to ask for papers for commissioning’, and my mid upper said ‘yes, and I want papers too’. He says ‘all right, all right, I can’t stop you’, and he gave us papers, the forms to fill in for commissioning. But they’d had the letter saying don’t [emphasis] pass anybody for a commission, all officers had been told this. I said to the Adjutant, ‘I want to hear it from the hips, from the lips of my Station Commander that I’m not going to be commissioned, not you sir’. I said ‘you’re the Adjutant all right, that’s fair enough, but I want to hear it from the lips of my CO about my not being commissioned’. ‘All right, all right, waste our time’ he said. ‘I’ll arrange an interview with the Station Commander’, who was Group Captain Hutton, he was an Australian, and we both went for commissioning. Harry was turned down, he came from Wigan to tell you the truth, and when he spoke you couldn’t understand a bloody word he said, [laugh] he was that broad Lancashire, absolutely broad, I thought that poor fellow’s going to interview him! And he came out and he was in tears. I said what’s wrong Harry and he said ‘he hasn’t passed me for a commission’, he said ‘I’ve done the same number of ops as you’, I said ‘I know you have’, but I knew why they had turned him down, because the next officer would be another Australian, wouldn’t understand a word he said. But I didn’t say that.
MC: But you got yours.
DJ: Yes, ‘cause I went to the next officer and they said, gave me an interview. He said ‘do you know we have had a letter from Air Ministry, not passing anybody [emphasis] for a commission’. I said ‘I have sir, but I just want to hear it from you, if I’m going to be turned down that’s fair enough, but I want to hear it from you, not from the Adjutant’. He said ‘you’re damned determined, aren’t you’. I said ‘well, I’m just seeking what I think I deserve, I’ve done a tour of ops now, I’m as good as anybody else now’. He said ‘all right’, he says, ‘for your damned nerve I’ll pass you’ he said, ‘but I know I’ll get a rocket from Air Ministry for passing you’. I said ‘thank you very much sir’, this was Group Captain Hutton, so he passed me on to the next one. And then [cough] and interview again, same story, ‘do you know we’ve had a letter from the Air Ministry not passing’. I said ‘I’ve heard all this sir, I just want to hear it from the person who’s got authority to fail me, that’s all. I’m not complaining’.
MC: So your commission you got after you’d finished your tour?
DJ: Yes, and then I got up to fly-.
MC: So when you went to India, did you fly in India, were you flying?
DJ: No, no, I was on legal duties then.
MC: Oh were you!
DJ: Yes, Courts of Inquiry, formal investigations, and Formal Investigations. I went on the legal side of the RAF and I did many court martials, I had to prosecute. However, first of all they sent me to an admin school, which was Poona, and from there they posted me to, on the legal side of the RAF and I did for many years, that’s all I did for the RAF after the war.
MC: Did you find that interesting?
DJ: Very [emphasis] interesting, very interesting, oh I really did. But to tell you the truth, it starts making you change, change your mind, because eventually you get to an RAF station, you look at a person you try and weigh them up whether they’re a crook or not! You do, you get the habit of doing this. I thought oh God! But I did it, the whole of my RAF career was on the legal side, court martials.
MC: Yes. So what was your title, you know, what was your role, what was your title? Was it legal officer or what did they call it?
DJ: No, no, just my rank, Flight Lieutenant.
MC: But you was just on the legal side. So how long were you in India for then?
DJ: Oh, I went from India, I still had another year to do when India declared independence and they said ‘you’re not going home you know, you’re going on to Singapore’. [Laugh] Okay. So they posted me from India to Singapore. Very good posting, that was a very good posting. I loved Singapore, it’s a smashing country, really is. And I went on, became PA to an Air Vice Marshal.
MC: That was in Singapore?
DJ: Yes. He was a belter, he really was a cracker; he was an excellent officer to work for. But I wished he hadn’t picked me to partner him when he played tennis every time! [Laugh] ‘Jimmy, you’re partnering me’, ‘oh, not again!’ But you can’t say no to an Air Vice Marshal can you [laugh].
MC: So Singapore. How long did you spend in Singapore?
DJ: I spent a year, then I came back to England and then I went to Singapore again, asked them to post me again.
MC: Oh, right.
DJ: I asked for Singapore again. They posted me back to Singapore.
MC: Can you remember when that was, what year that was?
DJ: The war ended ’45, it would be about ’47, ’48. Singapore was a very good posting, very good, I must say, especially when I became PA to the Air Vice Marshal. That was a wonderful life. His wife was a great person too, she was a big help to him. Every night she used to leave her house and come into the Officers Club and play gambling with us! Mrs Patch, she used to, we were playing liar dice, every night she’d be down and joining us all and having a drink, she was more natural than any woman you could meet, and she was an Air Vice Marshal’s wife, but oh she was so natural. She said to everybody, ‘Call me Mrs P, not Mrs Patch, just say Mrs P.’ So we called her that. [Pause]
[Other]: Very interesting wasn’t it.
MC: Oh, Singapore, you were second tour in Singapore, second time in Singapore, what happened after then?
DJ: Came home then, left the Air Force.
MC: Oh did you. When did you finish in the Air Force?
DJ: Then I got a letter from the Air Council saying we are pleased to announce, to write to you, to tell you we have awarded you the rank of Flight Lieutenant until you, pass. So they gave me the Flight Lieutenant for the rest of my life. They said they didn’t often do it.
MC: So what medals did you have?
DJ: European medals, German medal, Peacetime medal, I forget what, and Holland, we got a medal from Holland.
MC: Oh did you!
DJ: For our helping them during the war ‘cause they were desperately short of food, in Holland, they were desperate for food.
MC: Yeah. So it’s the 39 45 Star, yeah, France and Germany Star, yeah.
DJ: Went to, to where their gunners were, in Holland, Holland, and oh, they were ever so grateful to the British, they said you saved us, dropping that food to us. We were desperate, the Germans were eating all the food and we were getting none.
MC: And then, and you got the commemorative medal from the Belgian Government as well. So that was, when did you meet Nancy then?
DJ: At RAF Cheadle, she came to a dance. She was working in a computer factory and she came with all the other girls to the dance at the RAF base at Cheadle in Staffordshire and I saw her walk down, she was dancing with another girl and she came past me. I was Adjutant of the station and I looked at her and thought I fancy that girl – she’s a beauty. So I excused them and started dancing with her and then I saw her home and then we married, after a while.
MC: So what year was it you met her, you first met her then? You said you was the Adjutant.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: You said you was the Adjutant then.
DJ: Of the station, yes. That was at RAF Cheadle, Staffordshire.
MC: That was after you came back from Singapore?
DJ: Yeah. When I was a free man! [Laughter]
NJ: I’m behind you!
MC: So when did you get married then?
DJ: What year Nancy? Sixty odd years.
NJ: Oh good grief. I don’t know, I keep losing track of these events. Was it ’49. Yes, 1949 you got married and had a child in ‘52. I can remember that.
DJ: She had charming parents too. Very nice.
MC: Going back to Cheadle. You got posted to Cheadle after you came back from Singapore, as Adjutant there, and that’s where you finished your service was it?
DJ: No, no, I finished my service in Singapore.
NJ: We went back to Singapore.
DJ: We went back to Singapore.
MC: Oh, after you was at Cheadle. Yeah, ah, I’m with you now, yes.
DJ: Cheadle to Singapore. It was such a good posting. You fell over yourselves trying to get posted to Singapore.
MC: So did they have any aircraft?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: What aircraft did they have at Singapore, then?
DJ: Not flying.
MC: It wasn’t a flying station.
DJ: No, no. They had aeroplanes there, yeah. But.
MC: You weren’t flying.
DJ: I forget what they were. All sorts of landing, you know, all sorts of planes were landing.
MC: I would think most of them would have been transport aircraft as well.
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Most of them would have been transport aircraft.
DJ: Yeah.
MC: Say that again Jim, they did what?
DJ: After the war we had a roundup, all the Chinese guards, and we got them for trial. Put them to trial. All sentenced to death, this was at Changi Jail, and they were all hung, for cruelty to British officers, British personnel. Oh they were just, but it was so horrible, the Air Marshal wouldn’t let me read the book where all this was recorded, he wouldn’t let me read it, he said ‘no, it won’t do you good’, he says ‘take my word, they’ve taken it from this book, but you’re not to read this book under any [emphasis] circumstances’. So it must have been pretty bad. They must have asked the prisoners of war what did they do, you know. They did all sorts of things, did terrible things.
MC: This was the Japanese.
DJ: Yes. They seemed to be heartless, honestly, but I wasn’t allowed to read the book. [Other voices]
DJ: Straight after the war the skipper came to us, said ‘I’ve volunteered the crew’, he said, ‘to go to Japan, to fight the war there now’. So we all agreed to go with him, we said ‘we’re all behind you, to go on to Japan now and fight Japan’ and they sent us on leave, seven days’ leave and during that time they dropped the atom bomb on Japan, so the war was over completely worldwide. So we didn’t go to Japan, we didn’t have the pleasure of seeing the atom bomb go.
MC: When did you hear about that, I mean where did you hear about the atomic bomb?
DJ: Pardon?
MC: Where did you hear about the atom bomb, were you, you were at Binbrook when you heard about that were you? You were at Binbrook when you heard about the atom bomb, being dropped.
DJ: Yes, yes. Er, no, I’d left Binbrook then, yes, I’d left Binbrook. I think I must have been – I was on leave.
MC: Ah, you said you were on leave.
DJ: I was on leave when they dropped the atom bomb. There must have been a lot of soul searching by the President to agree to drop that bomb: he knew what horror would come from it. It must have taken a lot [emphasis] of courage to say I’m going to give the sanction for the atom bomb to be dropped, you know, what with the results they had. Oh my god.
MC: We talked about your raids and all the raids you did.
DJ: Excuse me. Thank you, Nancy.
MC: I mean how did you personally feel about what you were doing?
DJ: I was very thrilled, I really was. I felt really proud [emphasis] that I had taken such a part in the war. I didn’t have any sympathy for what we were doing, not like Churchill who changed his mind. He dropped us all in the cart eventually. I’ll never forget Churchill, and he didn’t mention the RAF in his speech after the war and that hurts our skip, our Bomber Command boss, it hurt him terribly that Churchill didn’t mention him. Churchill took exception because we bombed that last place in Germany.
MC: Dresden?
DJ: Dresden, yes. He took, he’d asked us permission for it and then he tried to backtrack out of it, said ‘I have my hands clean, I don’t know anything about it’. That hurt the Commander in Chief: he went back to South Africa a broken man. He really was.
MC: Well Jim, I thank you very much for talking to me.
DJ: It’s been a sheer pleasure.
MC: No, it’s been a pleasure to hear your stories, and it’s been great. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AJamesDWK170120, PJamesDWK1701
Title
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Interview with Douglas "Jim" James
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:04:16 audio recording
Creator
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Mike Connock
Date
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2017-01-20
Description
An account of the resource
Douglas (Jim) James was born in India and returned to England when he was nine. After school, he joined the RAF as an air gunner, forging his father’s signature on the application. Jim carried out twenty nine operations on 460 Squadron, flying in Lancasters. He tells of his training and his crew and discusses some of his operations which included the bombing of Essen, Cologne, Nuremburg and Dresden. He describes having to bale out following a leaflet drop over France when his plane was shot down accidentally by American allies. After the war, he was posted to India and Singapore and worked for the legal department of the RAF
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
India
Japan
Netherlands
Singapore
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--London
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Essen
Germany--Nuremberg
India--Pune
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1945
460 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Halifax
Lancaster
promotion
RAF Binbrook
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Dalcross
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF Sandtoft
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1253/16650/PHarrisJ1901.2.jpg
37f8e76c3007a5907c8d5e5767aac5ec
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1253/16650/AHarrisJ190131.2.mp3
f2e60b853eb7f0eb7e4f2d66a84fd858
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Harris, Jack
John Harris
J Harris
Description
An account of the resource
Three oral history interviews with Jack Harris (b. 1920). He served as a navigation instructor before flying operations with 550 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-01-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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PS: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Patricia Selby. The interviewee is John Harris. The interview is taking place at [buzz] Tunbridge Wells [buzz] and the date is the 31st of January 2019 and it’s 10am. When were you born, John?
JH: I was born on the 21st of September 1920. I was born in Gillingham, Kent which at that time was the largest borough in Kent with a population of sixty thousand people who depended heavily on the Royal Naval Dockyard at Chatham which was a very big employer, and there were also other army units at Old Brompton and other places in Chatham. I was born in very modest circumstances, I suppose. It was a traditional family residence with a front room which was kept under wraps Monday to Saturday and opened up on Sunday when relatives or friends came for tea and that was the big social point of the week. Yes. Very, very modest beginnings. And then when I was aged about four, my parents who had both been shop assistants decided to open up their own shop which was a confectionist and tobacco shop. And we moved to 465 Canterbury Street say when I was about three or four. I was still on a little tricycle and the garden path had to be widened slightly to take my tricycle. I remember that. Living as a small boy in a sweetshop was a mixed blessing [laughs] and it was easy to overdo the pleasures particularly as I soon found my way around the sweet shop. Where the best chocolates were kept and such. So I was brought up with a pretty sweet tooth. Yes. But anyway I went to Napier Road Elementary School at the age of five and stayed there until the age of ten when I got a scholarship to go to Gillingham County School for Boys in Third Avenue Gillingham, which was a fairly new school. It had probably been built four or five years before, and it had a school of about four hundred pupils. It had very big playing grounds with cricket pitches, rugby pitches and a hockey pitch and unusually it had its own swimming baths which was pretty small. About twenty yards. Twenty five yards long or so. But it was quite unusual for schools to have their own swimming pool. Yeah. So I [pause] stayed at the County School and took two exams in about 1935, and I was then aged fifteen. And at that time the government was very worried about the spread of venereal disease and they decided that students in the fifth form, who would be aged about fifteen, would be given talks or lectures on the dangers of venereal disease. And we were the first class to start this new instruction. The physics master gave the lesson. It was unfortunate because he had a slight stammer which was a legacy of the Great War. But his lecture was built around a series of photographs which he passed around for all the boys to see and these boys, these photographs showed up in considerable detail what could happen to your private parts if you caught gonorrhoea or syphilis and it wasn’t a terribly happy experience. And it had a very, very daunting effect on, on my life and I was a slow beginner. So that affected me quite a bit really. That you didn’t want to, to get involved with that sort of thing you see.
PS: Yeah.
JH: So it put a considerable break on my social activities with the other sex [laughs] But there we are. That was what the government wanted to do. And of course in a way their lesson got home because we were all pretty scared about the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. So when I was sixteen I passed the matriculation exam with quite good results. Distinction in maths and French. And I then sat the entrance exam for the Civil Service to become a Civil Service clerk. And there were exams held in every big city and I had to go up to London to the Civil Service premises at Burlington Gardens. And there in a big hall they’d assembled about two or three hundred desks and we all had to sit down and take this exam. They came around, put the question paper on your desk and then they said: ‘You can turn the paper over and you’ve got two hours to complete the paper.’ [laughs] Quite, quite, quite a stiff test. I mean you know it was pretty important and you could see the other two hundred and ninety nine you were competing with [laughs] Yes. But I managed to pass that exam. I also took the exam for the London County Council to be a clerk with them and passed that as well so I got jobs offered with both. But I accepted the job with the Civil Service as a clerk and started off in the Intelligence Department of the Air Ministry in, I think it was June or July 1936. You see. Yeah. Yeah. Because I, I had to wait for the inter-house cricket competition to be finished because I was the best batsman in our house cricket team. [laughs] So how little things influence things. But anyway I started work and they started me off in a section in air intelligence which dealt with security. Well, the word intelligence was pretty, sounded pretty well to a young boy, you know. And we were responsible for security in the Royal Air Force and we had contacts with MI5, the counter intelligence agency that rounded up foreign spies. The RAF liaison officer with the Secret Service was a friend of my boss in, in our department and he was always coming in once a week for a chat and so on. Not, not that he said anything of importance. It was just social chat, you know. But anyway [pause] I started that job, I think in 1937, and then when war broke out [pause] one Friday we were told to pack everything up and tie it up and label it and put it in desks, filing cabinets and cupboards. All these cupboards, cabinets and desks were labelled and so on. And war was declared on the Sunday morning and on the Friday afternoon we, we cleared up everything and put it in the cupboards and filing cabinets and we were given railway warrants to go on the Saturday to a school at Harrow and Willesden. This school had been evacuated. The children were all sent away to Devon, Cornwall, Wales and so on. That was a mass evacuation. So we arrived at this school. Our desks, cupboards and filing cabinets were in a classroom. Well, we were provided with a telephone. We were all there on the Sunday morning. We heard Neville Chamberlain declare war and about fifteen minutes later the air raid warden siren sounded and we trooped off into air raid shelters built in the playing fields. But of course nothing happened. It was a false alarm. So the Air Intelligence Department from Kingsway London had been evacuated to a school at Harrow in North London. Yeah. It was, it was, just a Grammar School. A secondary school like, like ours in Gillingham, you know. But I mean it was quite amazing how the move was done and the telephones were connected and working all, all within a twenty four or a thirty six hour period. In some ways it says quite a lot for the planning that was involved. Yeah. Yeah. We, we stayed at Harrow for about a month. And this was the period of the Phoney War. Nothing was happening and then they moved us back to central London. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I remember that, and although young men were conscripted for military service on their eighteenth birthday, I was exempt from conscription because I was in what was called a Reserved Occupation and if, if they thought the job you were doing there and then was more important to the war office, war effort then being in the army or the other services you got exemption from the call up. So I carried on as a Civil Service clerk. But then when Dunkirk came along in May and June 1940, the Civil Service bosses relaxed the rules and they said that young men like me could be released to join the services if you wanted to be aircrew or a glider pilot or a parachutist. So I applied to be aircrew straightaway and I went before an Aircrew Selection Board at Uxbridge and got through all that and they accepted me as a trainee pilot. This would be about July or August. [pause] Oh God, my memory’s failing me. God.
PS: Don’t worry.
JH: Yes. This would be about July 1940 but the RAF training machine was so overwhelmed with new people coming in, that they couldn’t accept me for two or three months and I had to wait until mid-October 1940 when I was sent down to Babbacombe on the outskirts of Torquay which was the Receiving Centre for new trainee pilots. And we went to Babbacombe. It was a Receiving Wing it was called and you were attested. You took the Oath of Allegiance and you got a service number and then we drew a uniform, an RAF uniform and we started introduction to RAF drill and early lectures on Royal Air Force law and so on. And we were only there for a fortnight when I was posted to Number 5 Initial Training Wing at Torquay where we were in a requisitioned hotel called the Elfordleigh. And there were three flights of students with fifty student pilots in each flight and we started off our pilot training with lectures in air navigation, meteorology, the principles of flight and beginning to be introduced to machine guns and how they worked and so on. And of course there was lots of drill involved and a certain amount of sport. That course lasted eight weeks and we finished just before Christmas 1940 and we were due to go on to an Elementary Flying Training School to start to learn flying Tiger Moths. But first of all it was winter time and all the RAF airfields then were grass airfields and in the winter they got too soft and boggy and couldn’t be used for flying. Also, the training machine was being overwhelmed by this new influx of would be pilots and there was no flying unit we could go to and they sent us to Paignton just to mark time, and waste time for two months until we could be sent away to start flying training. So I didn’t start my flying training until February 1941 when I was sent to Fairoaks near Woking to start to learn to fly on Tiger Moths. Fairoaks was a grass airfield. It was also belong to an aircraft factory in the corner of the airfield which was making certain planes. I can’t remember what they were, but anyway, anyway we started flying training in Tiger Moths. The instructor sat at the front. No. Sorry. The pupils sat in the front cockpit. The instructor was behind and the instructor gave you instructions with a gosport tube. He spoke down a tube which came in to your earphones and of course you started off with circuits and landings, learning to fly the thing and land it. To do local flying and then a little bit of cross country flying and that was it. We did about forty or fifty hours on Tiger Moths and then we were ready to go on to the next stage of flying training and I went up to a service flying training school at Grantham in May 1941 to learn to fly Oxfords which were a twin engine trainer. And again you did circuits and landings, local flying, you did formation flying, you did some cross country, you did some bombing exercises on a bombing range and you finished up by doing night flying. Grantham wasn’t a good airfield for night flying because the airfield was shaped like an inverted saucer and you couldn’t see the far end of the airfield. Also it was alongside a main road with telegraph poles and telegraph wires so it wasn’t good. So the night flying was meant to be done from a World War One grass airfield on the other side of Grantham which was called Harlaxton. But at the end of the runway, the end of the flare path at Harlaxton, there was a factory making twenty millimetre cannon for Spitfires and Hurricanes and it was a priority job to get these British fighters equipped with this twenty millimetre cannon and they were scared that if the flare path was laid out at Harlaxton it would attract German intruder bombers and the bombs could fall on the factory. So they stopped us flying from Harlaxton at night and we were sent up to Ingham just north of Lincoln which was not a proper airfield. There were no buildings of any sort. Just tents, telephone and slit trenches. But it was a grass airfield of course. A farmer’s field converted to an airfield, but you could lay out a portable flare path which gave you eight or nine hundred yard take-off and landing strip. So we went up to Ingham and my instructor did three or four dual circuits and landings with me at night. And then he got out and he said: ‘You’re on your own. Go and do your first solo night take-off and landing.’ So I taxied to the end of the flare path, got the green light and the Aldis lamp from the flare path controller who was at our end of the flare path and he gave me a steady green, so I opened the throttles and took off down this flare path. I’d got about two thirds of the way down this flare path when I noticed in the corner of my windscreen there was a reflection of five or six bright yellow flashes behind me. Well, I knew what they were. A German intruder bomber was dropping a stick of bombs along our flare path chasing me up the flare path. Well, I saw the flashes from the first five or six bombs. When the last two bombs burst, I heard the crump of the burst and got the push of the blast so it sort of helped me down the flare path. Anyway, I got into the air, climbed up to about forty or fifty feet, retracted the undercarriage, put out my navigation lights because I didn’t want the German bomber to pick me up and shoot me down. And I turned cross wind and looked back and our flare path had been turned out you see. It had been turned off. They had turned it off. In those days each RAF airfield, when flying at night, had a red beacon which was portable and it was located within a mile or two of the airfield and it flashed two Morse Code letters. So for Ingham our pundit was flashing I and, I for India and N for nuts you see. So I went to this portable flashing beacon at a height of about a thousand feet and circled it for a minute or so and then I thought well this isn’t a good place to be because the German will come to the beacon anyway and look for me. So I mean I turned off my navigation lights so I had no contact with the ground. No radio. So I didn’t know what to do. My own flare path had been put out. I, I had to find another flare path. I’d, I’d got about three hours fuel left to fly but dawn was still four or five hours away so somewhere I’d got to find a flare path and make a landing at night and I’d never done a solo night landing before. So I formed a little plan and I flew south for five minutes looking for a flare path. Came back to our beacon. Nothing. I flew east for five minutes, came back, nothing. I couldn’t fly west because we were getting near the hills. Getting near the Pennine Hills. So then I flew north for five minutes and I was flying now at about two thousand feet and I was just looking for a flare path and suddenly I saw what was called a hooded flare path. It was a proper flare path with two lines of lights you see, but there was a hood over the lights so you could only see the lights from low level. You couldn’t see them from high up. So I lined up on this flare path, set my gyro to make sure I’d got the right heading, did a circuit and landing, dropped my wheels down, down downwind. Came around, put my flaps down and landed. I’d had no radio contract with the airfield and I landed on this flare path which was actually a runway and it was an airfield being used by a night fighter squadron flying Defiants and they had a couple of aircraft up looking for the German bomber that had bombed my flare path you see. Well, of course I was a big surprise to them. It was, they had no warning of my arrival. As I came over the end of the runway, the runway controller in a caravan at the end of the runway told his ops room that he’d got a stranger. An Oxford had just landed. Well, they shepherded me to a dispersal and I switched off. So both I and the aircraft had got down in one piece safely albeit to a completely strange airfield. But it had a happy ending you see [laughs] So that was quite an introduction to night flying.
PS: Yes.
JH: Yeah. We’ll have a cup of coffee. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
PS: Right. Ok.
JH: Yeah.
[recording paused]
PS: You’re on.
JH: Well, [pause] about ten days after that incident where the Germans bombed my flare path I finished my flying course on Oxfords. And I received my wings on the 2nd of August 1941 and I was commissioned on that day. And then all the big tailors; Gieves, Orchid and so on had representatives that they sent to officer’s messes and you could be measured for your uniform and it would be made up and then you’d have a fitting. And you could get your uniform within oh two or three weeks. It was quite well organised. Unfortunately, I had come top in my navigation exam. And when I finished this course on twin engine Oxfords and got my wings, they made me a navigation instructor and I was sent away to a navigation instructor’s school at Cranage in Cheshire and we spent six or eight weeks learning a bit more about navigation in general but specialising in astro navigation using sextants to take shots of the stars, the moon and the sun. And you could get position lines from your sextant readings and plot these on the chart and get a fix. If you had taken shots on three stars you could get a fix which should give you your position at night to an accuracy of about ten miles which was a lot better than they’d had up ‘til then. So there was all this emphasis on astro navigation and particularly on the various star constellations and we had to get out and identify these at night when, when the sky was clear enough and so on. But the RAF had great hopes of astro navigation but it was overtaken by other better means of navigation soon after so it didn’t catch on as a mainstream of navigation. It was always a back up aid if you needed it. Yes. Yes. So [pause] I did about a six or eight week course at Cranage and I was then qualified to teach navigation. And you’ve got to remember I was only twenty one. Still pretty young. Yeah. So they sent me down to Number 3 Service Flying Training School at South Cerney near Cirencester and I taught navigation to each group of student pilots that came along. And they had to get enough in to, to pass navigation exams and so on. Each course consisted of fifty student pilots and they were learning to fly Oxfords and we were teaching them navigation. Each course of fifty students included eight or ten Polish pilots. And these had been perhaps members of the Polish Air Force or young Polish men wanting to fly who’d used an escape route to get out of Poland and be passed down through five or six countries. Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania into Turkey and finally they’d reached the RAF in Palestine and there they’d be vetted to make sure that they weren’t German spies. But then they would be accepted into the Polish Air Force and sent to England for training. So that’s why we had a lot of Poles on each course. Now, the training included some exercise learning how to drop bombs from two points of view. One being the pilot accepting instructions from the bomb aimer about getting on to the aiming point and the other being the actual bomb aimer who was guiding the pilot and giving instruction to the pilot to make sure that he lined up properly on the aiming point. And a bombing detail consisted of two pilots in an aircraft flying to the practice bombing range which was on mud flats in the Severn Estuary and took about ten or twelve minutes to fly to the bombing range. And then one pilot would go down to the nose where the bombsight was and he would guide his pilot friend to drop six practice bombs on this bombing range and they would change over and the other would do the bombing and the other would do the flying in the pilot’s cockpit. So the actual dropping of the bombs took about fifty minutes and with flying back to base the whole flying detail would be about an hour and twenty minutes or an hour and a half. [pause] One day, two Polish pilots took off to do this practice bombing exercise but they took a long time to come back and the Oxford only had fuel for about four hours flying but these two Poles didn’t come back to South Cerney and enquiries were made as to whether anybody had reported an Oxford crashing somewhere. They, they thought they’d crashed you see. Well, after about four hours these two Polish pilots returned. They hadn’t got any practice bombs on board. They’d dropped them all. They’d flown out over the English Channel at low level to get below the German radar screen. They got to the French coast. They flew up and down the French coast until they came to a German barracks flying a swastika flag and they dropped their twelve practice bombs on the German barracks. [laughs] Now, these practice bombs were very small. Only about eleven or twelve pounds each. They were just filled with magnesium powder so that you could plot them to give a cloud of dust. But they had a small explosive charge that gave a flash. That was all. But anyway, after about four hours these two Poles returned and they said what they’d done and of course everybody was a bit upset because they completely ruined a day’s flying programme. Apart from causing concerns about a missing aircraft, they’d ruined the next couple of day hours that aircraft was due to fly. So the chief instructor had to tear them off quite a large strip but at the same time he had to admire their aggression. [laughs] They weren’t going to waste any practice bombs. So I carried on instructing at South Cerney until May 1942 when I was posted to Canada to become a navigation instructor at a new Operational Training Unit that was being set up in Canada. But we ran into some problems straight away. The Operational Training Unit we were going to was meant to fly Hampden twin engine bombers and the crews were meant to be trained for night operations in Bomber Command. And that is where astro-navigation still played some considerable part. But unfortunately, the airframes for the Hampden bombers were made in Canada so the airframes were available but the engines were Mercury engines made by the Bristol Aircraft at Bristol in England. Well, the engines for the Hampdens never arrived. They’d been put on a ship to cross the Atlantic and the U-boats had got it and sent the ship to the bottom. So we had no engines. And of course you can’t do anything with a bare airframe. So for four or five weeks we were in limbo with virtually nothing to fly. So they made an emergency decision. The Air Ministry had ordered from Lockheed Aircraft Company at Burbank in California a number of day twin engine bombers called the Ventura which was an adapted version of the Hudson maritime patrol aircraft. Well, the Ventura used the Hudson wings and the Hudson wings were built for flying for long periods at low level, at low speed on maritime patrols you see, and the wings weren’t suitable for a day bomber which had to be a high speed bomber. So the concept of making the Ventura a day bomber never worked out. We, the RAF did order a small number. Perhaps seventy or eighty aircraft. They equipped three squadrons in Bomber Command but the casualty rate was too high and they couldn’t get away from German fighters. They couldn’t defend themselves and the casualty rate was just too high so the Ventura was never a success as a day bomber as it was meant to be, but it was quite an interesting aircraft to fly. It had very modern systems. The Americans were very good with instruments, electrics and auto pilot. Much, much better than actually the RAF equivalent and it was still an interesting aircraft to fly. So I carried on flying Venturas at Pennfield Ridge in New Brunswick, Canada which was one of the Maritime Provinces and heavily dependent on forestry, agriculture, orchards and fishing and so on and generally a rather poorer part of Canada. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I stayed on teaching navigation and then they made me a staff pilot on Venturas and I could lead students on formation flying and certain air firing exercises and so on. So I did quite a number of hours on Ventura aircraft. So then in January ’44, I was sent back to England on a troop ship from Halifax in Nova Scotia, and I came back on a troop ship called HMS Andes which when war broke out had been under construction. So it was a fairly new ship and they were able to finish it as a troop ship and it could take, you know, several hundred RAF people. So we were, I think I was on one of the top decks. A deck it was, and a cabin with six bunks in it. Three double tiered bunks occupied seven officers. The seventh had to sleep on the floor so we took it in turns to sleep on the floor. But we didn’t come back in a convoy. The Andes was fast enough to make the Atlantic crossing unescorted and if you could cruise along at seventeen or eighteen knots you were probably going fast enough to avoid the U-boats and so on. So we came back to Gourock in the Firth of Clyde at Glasgow. That was our landing point. Yeah. Yeah. I’m sorry, I’m wrong there. We came back to Liverpool. We landed at Liverpool. We landed at Liverpool, yeah. Sorry. And then I started my training with Bomber Command and I went to Number 30 OTU at Hixon, near Stafford, flying Wellington bombers. I was the pilot and I acquired a crew of; navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and one air gunner. So we became a crew of five and we did all our circuits and landings, local flying, cross country, bombing exercises, air firing exercises, formation flying, fighter affiliation and night flying and so on. And then after about eighty or ninety hours on Wellingtons, we finished that course and we were ready to go on to the next step on the Bomber Command training ladder, and we went to a Heavy Conversion Unit at Sandtoft near Doncaster to learn to fly the Halifax four engine bomber. And there I added on a flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner to my crew. So at that point we became a crew of seven and we did the same sort of exercises; circuits and landings, local flying, cross countries, bombing, air firing, fighter affiliation and night flying. So we did forty hours flying on Halifaxes and then we were sent to Number 1 Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell where we all did a quick conversion course on to the Lancaster and it was just circuits and landings, day and night flying and I think one cross country. We were only there for about two, two and a half weeks and then we were qualified Lancaster crew and I was posted to Number 550 Squadron flying Lancasters based at North Killingholme near Grimsby. We arrived about teatime on the 30th of August 1944 and there was an air of gloom everywhere because that day the squadron commander, a wing commander had been shot down on a daylight raid on a French target but unfortunately he didn’t come back. So we did a couple of cross country exercises on the squadron, particularly getting used to a navigation aid called H2S which was a downward looking radar which gave you a picture of the ground and you could identify towns and water features which helped a lot with the navigation. So we did two or three training exercises with the squadron and I had to start my tour by doing a second pilot trip with an experienced crew which I did on the 10th of September 1944 and the target was Le Havre port. And we attacked it in daylight so the whole sortie was very short and we were only over the target for two or three minutes and we hardly saw any flak. Just a few puffs of smoke. A few. But it wasn’t much good from the point of view of getting me used to enemy defences. So our first raid as a complete crew was a night sortie on the 10th of September to Frankfurt and we went on a totally clear night with no cloud. But Frankfurt and Mainz it’s twin city had about two hundred searchlights and they were all alight as we came over this target and you could see three or four aircraft had been coned by, you know twenty or thirty searchlights each, and they were being plastered with flak. So that didn’t do the morale a lot of good. But anyway, we, we got through all that alright. That was a flight of just over seven hours. And then we started to do three or four daylight raids on targets in or near Calais. There was a gun site that was firing shells into Dover and southern England. There were a lot of German troops in Calais which were trying to stop the allies capturing the port because we wanted to get the port for the port facilities it offered you see. Loading supplies and so on. Yeah. So we did three or four day sorties and then we [pause] we were sent on one daylight raid in October, early October, to an inland port on the River Rhine at Emmerich which was being used to bring German reinforcements in. And they sent us in in daylight at a height of eleven thousand feet which was pretty low and the German flak gunners had no trouble in picking you up as target. And suddenly a flak shell burst about thirty or forty feet in front of me. Fortunately just below me. Just a few feet below. I saw the red flash as the shell burst. I jumped out of my skin. I knew I was going to be severely tested in the next few minutes. There was one very loud bang which we found out when we landed was because a blind landing aerial on the outside of the fuselage just below, just by my left knee had been shot clean away. And we took a lot of flak fragments in the port wing and one fragment punctured one fuel tank and the mid-upper gunner reported fuel streaming back from this tank and I could tell from the petrol gauge that it was leaking pretty badly. The needle was going down. So we had to run all four engines off that one tank to make best use of what fuel was remaining in it. And I checked around with the crew. Nobody was hurt. We were all unharmed. That was a bit of a surprise in a way. And when we landed we found we’d got over seventy holes in the port wing in the bomb bay doors of the fuselage and so on. So we’d taken quite a pasting from this flak shell. But anyway, we got back alright and then we set out to do a lot of night raids on mostly targets in southern Germany like Stuttgart, Munich, Leipzig, Nuremberg and so on, interspersed with raids on Ruhr Targets like Essen and Dusseldorf and then three raids on Cologne we did as well. On one of the Cologne raids we were hit by flak again but that time minor. We only got ten or twenty holes. Yes. Yes. So there was one particular episode during my tour with 550 Squadron. About halfway through our tour, our flight engineer fell off his motorbike and broke his wrist and he was out of action for five or six weeks, in which period we carried on flying doing six raids with a replacement flight engineer. So when my crew had finished their thirty raids, the flight engineer had only done twenty four because he’d missed six of them. So I got the whole crew to volunteer to fly six extra raids to finish off the flight engineer which meant that I as a pilot did thirty seven raids all together, because I’d started with the second pilot trip you see. So I, there weren’t, there weren’t many people on the squadron that had flown more raids than that. Yeah. And we, we got through the tour alright. As long as you were in the middle of the bomber stream you were relatively safe from night fighters. The night fighters were the biggest danger because with their twenty millimetre cannon firing upwards they came underneath you and you couldn’t see them and they fired up in to your fuel tanks and engines and so on, and usually the first burst was pretty fatal. But the night fighters were looking first for bombers on the edge of the bomber stream where they would be easier to pick up you see. But I had a good navigator and he kept me in the middle of the bomber stream and we were never attacked by a night fighter. So I take my hat off to my navigator there. He was really responsible for the crew coming, coming back unharmed from all these raids. Yeah. Yeah. We finished up. Our next to last raid was the Dresden raid where we, we flew for ten hours twenty minutes. And unfortunately when I started up my own aircraft, the brake pressure was too low and we couldn’t taxi out and take off. We had to switch quickly to the reserve aircraft which was already bombed and fuelled up. So we were taken to the reserve aircraft and we flew the sortie in the reserve aircraft. But not surprisingly the reserve aircraft was a very tired out aircraft and possibly had a twisted fuselage. It didn’t fly too well and I had to use much more fuel than usual in climbing up to altitude and we started to get a bit short of fuel and coming back across France we realised we didn’t have enough fuel to get to North Killingholme, so we landed at an emergency airstrip at Manston in Kent. Just next to Ramsgate. And we landed there about ten past seven in the morning just as it was getting light. Yeah. So, that, that was that was a long, long sortie. Ten hours twenty minutes was our longest sortie. That’s ten hours twenty minutes from take-off to landing. But that means, what with starting the engines during the early take off checks, taxiing to the take off point, taxiing back after you land, I’d been strapped to that seat for over eleven hours you see. Quite a long time isn’t it? [laughs]
PS: A very long time.
JH: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Ok. So shall we have a rest now?
PS: Yes.
JH: Yes. Yes. Yes.
[recording paused]
JH: I’d finished my tour and I was posted in early March 1945 to a Halifax Heavy Conversion Unit at Sandtoft where I was an instructor and deputy flight commander. And of course we were training crews on the Halifax first and then they would go on to the Lancaster. And the war with Japan was still on and they were due to go up to the Pacific Islands to bomb Japan but Japan came out of the war in, I think it was August 1945, and obviously there was no need to carry on training crews. So we had a very awkward period where they didn’t really know what to do with all the aircrew they’d got, and holding units were set up just to [laughs] just to sleep and feed them but not, not really knowing what to do with them. So it was a rather awkward time. And I had a stroke of luck. I took some leave and my home was in Gillingham in Kent so I went up to London quite a lot. And I was walking the streets of London and I met a squadron leader who I knew and we started chatting and he, he was in charge of pilot postings in the Air Ministry and he said to me: ‘You know, pilots and aircrew are going to have a difficult time for the next few months until everything gets sorted out, but — ’ he said, ‘If you like I could get you a job in the Air Ministry.’ Well, I leapt at it you see. So I was posted to the Air Ministry on the 1st of October 1945. And first of all I was a flight lieutenant but fortunately in about March ’46 they made me an acting squadron leader and I was pretty pleased with that at the age of twenty five. Life was looking pretty good. And then a month or two later about April or June, April or May ’45, they gave me a permanent commission which I accepted as quick as I could and I was going to stay in the RAF permanently you see. So that was a lucky break for me. Yeah. So then in March 1948, I went back to flying duties and had to take a refresher course flying Oxfords at Finningley near Doncaster for six or seven weeks. And then I was posted to an Operational Conversion Unit flying Dakotas at North Luffenham near Oakham in Rutland and I acquired a pilot and a wireless operator, so we were just a crew of three and we learned to fly a Dakota transport aircraft and the Dakota could transport about thirty or forty troops. It could drop paratroops. It could tow gliders, and you could also drop containers as supply dropping to troops on the ground. So we had to practice all those exercises. But the main thing was doing a long cross countries to get the navigator exercised and so on. So that was fine. And I carried on until March 1948. No, sorry. [pause] I carried on ‘til February ’49. That’s right. February ’49 when I was posted out to the Far East and we went up on a troop ship the Devonshire which was the services troop ship, you know. Yeah. Now, we’ve got —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Harris. One
Creator
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Patricia Selby
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2019-01-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisJ190131, PHarrisJ1901
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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01:15:33 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Harris was born in Gillingham, Kent. At sixteen, he undertook employment as a clerk in the intelligence department of the Air Ministry. He describes the brief evacuation of his department to Harrow in 1939 and receiving permission to leave his reserved occupation and volunteer for aircrew in 1940, when he was sent down to Babbacombe. Harris began training as a pilot on Tiger Moths in February 1941 at RAF Fairoaks, followed by Oxfords at RAF Grantham and RAF Ingham. Harris describes night flying at Harlaxton before going to Ingham. He describes his first solo night flight, when a German intruder bomber caused the landing flares to be turned off, forcing him to find an alternative airfield to land. In 1941, Harris was made a navigation instructor and was sent away to a navigation instructor’s school at RAF Cranage in Cheshire. He then served as a navigation instructor for pilots at RAF South Cerney until May 1942, when he was posted to an Operational Training Unit in Canada as a staff pilot leading Ventura training exercises. In January 1944, Harris returned to England and trained on Wellingtons at RAF Hixon, Halifaxes at RAF Sandtoft, and converted to Lancasters at RAF Hemswell. In August 1944, he joined 550 Squadron based at RAF North Killingholme and completed thirty-seven operations. He compares his first daylight operation accompanying an experienced crew to Le Havre with his first solo pilot operation at night to Frankfurt. He also recounts anti-aircraft fire puncturing a fuel tank and seventy holes into their wing during a daylight operation over the Rhine River, and his penultimate operation to Dresden. In March 1945, Harris was posted to a Halifax Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Sandtoft. Finally, Harris describes receiving a permanent position in the RAF in 1946 and training to fly C-47s before being posted to the Far East in 1949.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Julie Williams
Steph Jackson
Language
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eng
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Surrey
England--Lincolnshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Staffordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Harrow
Canada
France
France--Le Havre
Germany
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Dresden
Rhine River
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941-02
1942-05
1944-01
1944-08
1946
1949
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
30 OTU
550 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
C-47
Flying Training School
H2S
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Cranage
RAF Fairoaks
RAF Grantham
RAF Harlaxton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hixon
RAF Ingham
RAF North Killingholme
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Sandtoft
RAF South Cerney
RAF Torquay
recruitment
Tiger Moth
training
Ventura
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1561/34783/SRAFIngham19410620v040001-Audio.2.mp3
beecb77e5ba24652eef7ada82bd88855
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Ingham Heritage Group
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RAF Ingham
Description
An account of the resource
25 items in six collections. The collection concerns RAF Ingham and contains interviews photographs and documents concerning:
Andrzej Jeziorski - Pilot 304 Squadron
Arthur Hydes - Boy in Ingham
Brian Llewellyn -ATC
Jan Black - Rear Gunner 300 Squadron
Lech Gierak - Armourer 303 Squadron
Marion Clarke - MT Driver RAF Ingham
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak - Armourer
Stanislaw Jozefiak - Air Ops 304 Squadron - Pilot on Spitfires
Wanda Szuwalska - Admin 300 Squadron Faldingworth
Zosia Kowalska - Cook RAF Ingham
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by the RAF Ingham Heritage Group and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GB: On record now, right. Right. Hopefully, the intention is obviously, when we get, we’ll get a professional company to edit the whole tape to make it into, you know, for presentation, so it doesn’t matter if we have kind of little kind of funny laughs and things like this, because it will obviously kind of, hopefully the tape will look, you know, quite good when it’s all finished and put together so it doesn’t matter a bit of explaining.
JB: Yes. In style.
GB: Indeed yes, indeed. I mean really obviously the intention today is just to talk to you about your life, before the war, and obviously kind of little bit about your family. Obviously your time in the Polish Air Force before you left Poland and then obviously your, your kind of trip or your route into, all around and into.
JB: I will tell you completely different route, my route, you know, how I came here, yes.
GB: Okay. And then obviously once you came to Britain, obviously about joining up with the Polish Air Force in the RAF.
JB: Yes, yes.
GB: And then really talking a little bit more perhaps in depth about when you were at RAF Ingham. If you’d like to talk about, obviously, the missions that you were on and in particular the one where your aircraft crashed, then we don’t mind but if you prefer not to talk about that for personal reasons, then we fully understand.
JB: No, I think is good to mention how it happened, and because it will be, you know what I mean, the real story, you know what I mean. It’s no good to leave something important what happen in my life, not to mention it, yes.
GB: Well the nice thing is this will be a lasting memory, unfortunately after you have passed on and probably after we have passed on as well, the Heritage it’s almost the Heritage Centre will be for future generations, yes.
JB: That’s what I was thinking. What now you see Minister of Education try to bring the Second War into the children, into the history, because you see somehow after the war you know what that generation went through, for such a suffering and sacrifice which in giving their life, what was quickly forgotten, you know what I mean. GB:Because that was worst history than Napoleonic days, because Napoleonic War, it was gentlemen war, but that, in a Second World War, that was almost unbelievable what in twentieth century you know, such a barbarous could be committed, crime on the people. So you see new generation came, and the authority, you know, completely forgot about the suffering, what we went through it, you know what I mean. And to listen now what they said when they asking children at school about history of Battle of Britain, some of them even don’t know, because there is so much newcomers to this country. But all right, they newcomers, but they should learn the history of this country, you know, what was happening here, and I think now what they’s trying to um, recover the lost time you see, after so many years, you see, because that was probably one of the most, I would say, desperate effort, that Second War what we win, because if the Germans would succeed, what they almost did, I mean we probably would be for thousand years under their domination. That’s what they had idea, you know what I mean.
GB: I think so.
JB: That’s what they kept it, the rest of the world for so long.
GB: Yes.
JB: Because they had the system what, you know, that they would manage under their sort of strict rules you see, and I’m glad what you now try to recover some of the history so the young generation after us, you see, will probably know what we had to go through it, you know what I mean. Yes. It’s important what they still try to save something you know it would be a good idea. Look at Margaret Thatcher. I used to remember, I used to go to her shop, when father, on the corner, had that shop.
GB: Yes. In Grantham.
JB: Because I used to get cigarettes some time, but when I used to go to that little shop, early in morning, I had to look left, and right, if nobody already in the shop or if somebody been in the shop, I was waiting till they come out, and then I would walk to the shop and ask for some cigarettes because I didn’t want cigarettes only for myself. I wanted for myself and for my friends. So when nobody been in the shop, I was alone, so I used to get one or two packets extra! [Laugh] You see, that’s how the things were you see, those days! I mean people today have no idea. If you, in morning, you see, yesterday your friend went to get cigarettes, but the next day was your turn. So you see we used to do in turns, we used to get up early in the morning!
GB: Just to get the cigarettes.
JB: To get cigarettes and go from shop to shop! Terrific. [Laugh] We come for holiday to London, come to holiday, and sometime we come in afternoon, all hotels booked up because all the people who have forty eight hours, military people, come to London. If you come late, outside hotel: ‘No Room, No Room’ you see. So you didn’t have even to go and ask, because they used to leave the sign: No Vacancy. So we used to sleep in Serpentine, you know, they had the deck chair, [indecipherable] we put some deck chair. In morning we go wash ourself in Serpentine, shave because we won’t be served in our gas mask, you know what I mean and waiting for pubs to open, you know what I mean. [Laugh] So first we had to order ourself rooms early in morning, because that was only time, but many times we slept in, in the Park, you know what I mean, because we been happy, and living from day to day. If you went to bar on your own - I’m just telling you this story what I went through.
GB: Yes, yes.
JB: And some time you make appointment with your friends, so we meet you in Fifty Two Piccadilly – that was well known pub - and sometime you got to the Park and your friends still been delayed, so you would be standing on your own. You will not be standing for long because people come and talk to you, you know, straight away, you see, because you could not stand on the corner and drink alone, the people be friendly, you know what I mean.
GB: When you were on the forty eight hour pass did you have to go in uniform?
JB: Oh yes, yes, uniform.
GB: Always in uniform.
JB: Yes, uniform, because if you been in civvie you always been suspected what you some, probably you know person undesirable, you know what I mean, yes. And I mean pubs were packed [emphasis] during the winter, I mean during the war, because people just been living uncertain life, you know what I mean. And they been so happy you know. You came and the cinemas were playing, the bombs were dropping, shows were going on, you know what I mean, people just got, in the end you know, they got used to bombing, you know. Sometimes they were falling closer, sometimes they been, the Germans used to bomb East London, dock side you know what I mean. Somehow they didn’t do much in the centre of the London, you know, but the East London was receiving the most hit, yeah.
GB: Did you always come to London for your forty eight hour passes? Was that the best place?
JB: No, some time, some time I go to Scotland, because you see when you come some time to London, and you know you have lots of disturbed nights, you know what I mean, then some time you will go, and Blackpool.
GB: And Blackpool. Because that was the Polish Depot, wasn’t it.
JB: Blackpool. That was our depot you see. We had such friendly relations there because we used to, sometime when you been doing, you did half tour, used to get two weeks little rest you see to Blackpool, and we nearly always went and stayed same small boarding hotels, you see, and it was beautiful place, Blackpool. Oh, I still think Blackpool is one of the nicest part in England, you know what I mean. That beach, long, you know, sandy beach and the Blackpool Tower, you know, dancing, you know, phoar! [Laugh] Manchester public house on the corner on the Promenade, you know what I mean. Blackpool was lovely place, and so much in holiday, in those days, so much excitement.
GB: Was, in those days, was Blackpool like little Poland, because of the sheer number of Polish airmen that were being trained there?
JB: Yes, yes. You see, I’ll tell you why we left good respect, but after the war, when war ended, from Germany, from lots of those concentration camps, came lots of different people what they call themselves what they were Polish, but they were not, they were all different, some even Germans been disguised telling them they could speak Polish, that they were Polish, so they spoiled us reputation. But when Polish Air Force only stay in Blackpool, when we used to enter to the small hotel on the Promenade, we made our own rules. Some time was landlady the owner of the hotel because her husband was Captain in the Far East serving for four, five years, and in the hotels was the rules what you can bring girlfriend to sitting room for cup of tea or coffee, but nowhere else. And we had our rules and anybody brought girlfriend sometime, because every hotel had sitting room, you could invite her to sitting room, you can treat her with cup of tea or coffee or cake.
GB:: That was it.
JB: Gentlemen, If you wanted anything else you have to look outside but not in! And we had those rules and you know the landladies would go to sleep during the night and they didn’t have to worry because they knew what anybody who came inside to the hotel, she was sure what there would be not be any bad reputation on her. And we kept that, you know what I mean, and that was good. [Laugh]
GB:: Jan, what’s your full name? Cause I wasn’t sure. I spoke to Danny and he wasn’t sure.
JB: Yes, I tell you. I’m glad you asked. You see, when I met my wife, in London, my wife managed private club [sniff]. And I, so we went to one pub in London and we met English, erm, English, erm, he was, PO, Pilot Officer and he came and talked to us, asked us from which squadron we on. We told him we came from Lincolnshire and spending holiday and the pubs was closing because they open from eleven till three, after, open five till eleven, so he said - and we been seven of us - he said and what you doing now and we said probably have to go to cinema, wait till pub to open again! He said to us, listen I am member in one of the club, would you like to come with me? Well we said, oh thee, In those days if you could go to private club it was almost big, you know, satisfaction you know what I mean, because so we say you know that would be almost unbelievable what you. Oh yes he said, I’m member and I can take you but you not allowed to buy drinks; I will treat you to drink. So we went with him and he introduced us to the person who owned the club, and he said they are Polish aircrews from Lincolnshire and I like to introduce them to the club so they can have a drink with me. So the young lady said very nice, thank you. So we had one drink, second, and the people in those days they all were shop owners, solicitors, engineers, come for lunch during, because they were active in their own profession you see, but members of the club. They invite us in evening again because you see the club had also hours opened in afternoon and after in the evening. So we went in the evening and we behaved properly and the lady who owned the club, after second day, she said to us, listen you bunch, I will make you members. But when she said she will make us members we got stiff, frightened, because we thought she would ask us to pay the membership! And in those days membership, you know! [laugh]
GB: Was some money, yes!
JB: So she said but don’t you worry, she said, you don’t have to pay. I know you come from time to time and my members, her members mentioned that she should make us members you see, so she give us little book with the rules, how we have to obey the membership. So if we have friend to bring to the club we must treat them with the drink, not allow them to buy the drinks and be sure what the people we guarantee their membership you see, so that was fine. We went one night, second night, on third night, when our lady was closing the club, our navigator, he was our banker because we used to give him all our money to him, and he used to pay the expenses: hotel, restaurants, drinks [laugh] and we only stayed on holiday till kitty was lasted. When kitty was empty we returning back to the station, some time before the holiday finished, depends on the kitty.
GB: How much time, yeah how much money.
JB: Anyway, to come to the point, you see we had yes, and the lady was closing the club and you had to finish the drinks on time because in those days the police rules were strict. If they caught you some time half an hour late delay the club was fined, heavily, you know, for not obeying the rules. So anyway we had to finish drink quickly and we said to the lady who owned the club, and what you going to do now? She said I’m going home. So we quickly said, we suggest to her, we want to take her to dinner. So we said what about if we take you for quick dinner? You been so kind to us, make us members, and we like to reimburse you something what we can. Well she said, I have to take dog for walk. [Laughter] [Indecipherable] when she finish. So we take her by taxi, we wait in taxi outside, she take that dog for walk quickly, come with us, we got to Soho, to little Italian restaurant and we give her nice dinner you see, and we finish almost two weeks, nearly every night we went to that club because we’ve got so many nice members there and we just been waiting for night to go up there you know, to have, meet the people. Then she said to us, look, if you have any friends, you come again to London, you give them my club address and tell them you are friends of your crew and I will make them members. Because there were Canadians coming, New Zealands, you know, all the military. Our second crew, what we recommended, we say you go to London, you will be able to go to club where lovely ladies come, you know, and you will, it is different from the pubs you know, because in those days it was big different between club and the bar. So we went there and the lady said what happened to that crew, first lot? They said, oh they were all killed, only one survive. She said and this one survive, where’s he? Is on the station and not come to London, they said to her, no he is in hospital. Oh, I see, and he still alive. Yes, he is badly burned. Which hospital is he? Oh he is outside London, in East Grinstead, Sussex. Oh I see, yes, that’s a big hospital for Royal Air Force, you know what I mean. So she made note and the one Saturday afternoon, sister, ward from hospital, come and she said, Jan, you have somebody come to visit you. I said sister, I don’t expect. Oh yes, somebody know your name, yes. So I said bring her in. She come and I was all in bandages. And she said you laying here and you never even phoned me, to tell me what you are here, and I said I don’t know where is my telephone numbers; I lost everything, I said that’s all what I own: my bandages! She said never mind, I’m glad what you are here. And I was so proud, because that’s on Saturday, listen, lots of my English colleagues had father, mother, brother or sister come, and I was on my own and knew, been feeling very, you know, lonely. She used to come and see me you know. Because when my English colleagues bring her, they said to their father oh that’s the Polish airman. So they will come, treat me with cigarettes, have a joke and talk, but I knew it was not the same, you know what I mean, but when that lady came especially to see me, I honest, I was important, really was. [Laugh] So that sister, and afterwards she spent a few hours, that sister brought tea, cup of tea, cakes, you know, because that how was treating the visitors. And I said how you came here. She I came by train because I have car but I have no petrol. So I call taxi and there was about one mile to the station. Took her to the station, I thank her for her visit, and she said if you ever passing through London, you come and see me. I said to her I will be going to station to collect certain thing, so I said I come for quick drink. She said you do that and afterwards she came few times to see me in hospital because I spent in that hospital six months, and it was just friendship, she was so kind to me. I said to her, I used to call her by her name, I say Evelyn, listen you coming to see me, you have so much business to do. She said listen, I come to see you, you don’t know why? I said no. Well, she said look, your friend, this one, has father and mother she said, somewhere they have, and you are on your own she said, and that’s why I come and see you. And you know this touched me, you know what I mean, what I felt I had somebody still. I was so happy afterwards because you know, I used to talk to my friends – you had visitor but I had visitor too, you know what I mean. And you know that develop afterwards that I became friendly and I married her. I married her for fifty years.
GB: What was the date of your marriage?
JB: 19 10 46. Yes, I remember that date. I was married in Lincolnshire: Great Eastern Hotel. That’s a railway hotel.
GB: Was that in the middle of Lincoln, was it?
JB: Yes, yes.
GB: Great Eastern.
JB: Listen, nearly all the staff got sack because I got married in Registry, [sigh] but reception was, you know, in a, and I booked myself in the Great Eastern with my wife for couple nights and nearly half of my station turn up and the rest of the hotel could not sleep! So they said the next day, the next manager had all the waiters, waitresses, everybody, what there was so much noise all the people could not sleep! But there was no disturbance, no problem except lots of people turn up. And they made kitty and they been ordering the drinks, you know what I mean, people in corridors, everywhere, but in the end you know, he accepted what that was special wedding, only one what he would remember you see, and there was some of them had caution you know what I mean, but that about all you see, and that was also lovely wedding because I wanted, you see, I even show you, you see here, here, if you have glasses.
GB: Permission to Marry.
JB: That Permission to Marry. In those days our commanding officer would not let crew, aircrew, to get married, girl, if he doesn’t see girl first. Because a lot of them go on holiday, get drunk, meet any girl, get engaged and get married and some of that marriage didn’t last long. And afterwards it, rules was what any aircrew member who want to get married must bring his girlfriend first, commanding officer had to accept and if she was suitable and you see I had from the commanding, when my wife saw him, you know what he said to me, he said I will, because she used to come and stay in the White Hart Hotel.
GB: In Lincoln
JB: On top, you know.
GB: On the top, near the Castle, yeah.
JB: That’s right. So he would, he sent her taxi back to the hotel, you know, she almost had it from beginning he was asking her question, afterwards she was asking him! [Laugh]
GB: That’s very good!
JB: And you see I got married.
GB: This has answered the question. You know, my first question to you was what was your original name, your Polish name. It was Stangrycuik.
JB: Stangrycuik I tell you why: my wife, you see my wife was named Evelyn Black and she was born in Derbyshire, but her father had lots of land, big land and she was as a young, studying economic and working on the land. She had two brothers. After when father died, two brothers left on the, on that big farm, and on that farm they had pub, so on Saturday and Sunday, local farmers come with their children, discuss what crops they should have in different parts, because the weather is the most suitable for such a crop and children would play in the garden, have orange juice and the father and mother would discuss in the bar you see, their life. But when she finished study economic she didn’t wanted to return and work on the farm because it was hard work. Hard work. She decided to work for big London company, hotel and restaurants, as er, erm, she was, you know, qualified accountant. She was kept all the, from the restaurants, all the expenses, statements. People used to come, have table, waiters used to serve them with the drinks, whatever food and used to bring to the office expenses of those. And in those days Royal Family, Café Royal off Regent Street she was working, and that was syndicate. They had hotels in Maidenhead and different expensive hotels in London. When they had extension nights, sometime, they applied to the police for extension because it will be till two o’clock in morning, you know, special function, and she would get that extension for the later night. So my wife used to, the manager ask her if she work overtime because is very busy gala night you know, when also from royal family members come, so they used to pay her double time. And she worked few years there and not one time, and when used to have gala night big function, they used to invite the manager from brewery, Watney Brewery on Piccadilly, Victoria, sorry, Victoria, that was brewery in Victoria, and in the end they were asking if they lower their drinks because in the end they said we give you so much business you must lower the drink. So I will make the story quickly, and when is that gala night, he, that big manager come from Watney Brewery come with his wife and often talk to my, in the end wife, who was in the reception, accountant. He said listen I don’t think I will be coming much often here, so my wife then as the secretary of that Café Royal, said why not? I had terrific bust up with your syndicate and I think we breaking our relation business, no longer. She said, no not really. Yes, yes, they try to bring me, so down in prices what I can’t lower them no more, you know, to supply with the drink. And he said to her then, to my wife, he said and you working here so few years, they not treating you so generous. Well she said but I’m still happy, I pay my rooms and I said, he said you know that business better than owners, you should have your own business. Because she was already annoyed with the syndicate company what you see he was breaking the business after all those years, he said you should have your own business, you know that business better than the owners. She said yeah, but you must have money to have that. He said surely you must have some money! Well, she said, my brothers sold the estate in Derby and gave they me little because I would not work with them so they gave me a small compensation One went to Australia and one brother went to went to Canada; they had bust up between them so they went far from each other, you know, but they, you know, share whatever. She said but I have no money to start. Don’t you worry, you tell me how much you have, brewery will give you, find you place but you have to buy drinks, in exchange for little concession what I help you, and you should have your own business, he said, because you will make better business because you know that business better than the owners of that syndicate, hotel in Maidenhead and Café Royal and the [indecipherable] in London and he put her that fix into her head what she should own private club, and for seventeen years she owned that, during the war, and that’s when I met my wife you see. I was little airmen gone to club and land myself with the lady who own the business you see.
GB: Can you remember when you actually met her when you went down to London that first time?
JB: Yes, that English pilot officer took us in, and he was the member you see.
GB: Do you remember what year that was?
JB: Yes! In, end of ’41 you see, and my wife was ten year older than me, but she was, after I show you photographs, everything. Anyway I married her and she was, some time when we go to our reunion, because I show you some, you see that’s where I go to my Guinea Pig Reunion, yeah.
GB: Did, when you got married, did Evelyn take your name or did you change straight over to Black?
JB: Yeah, I was, you see is already war finished and my wife knew I not going back to Poland you see. Because there was so much communists and the communists didn’t like the people from the aircrews because you see all people, aircrew, we knew all the sickness of this country and so on, and they used to suspect us what we will be spying against the communists, and we been always, those who weren’t, been always followed by the KGB you know what I mean. So I, my wife knew I was not going back to Poland and she said look Jan, calling me by my name, I have business and for me to change all the administration is lots of extra expense and she said I want to keep on the same and she said I want to naturalise you British, because you not going where so many communists there, you went enough with the Germans and she said now you have another you see, people to follow you. And I love my wife so much I didn’t care what I, and you see, and of course my doctor from East Grinstead, Sir Archibald McIndoe, that big plastic surgeon - he used to call me Polski you know – and when he used to meet us in East Grinstead in the Whitehall bar, that’s hotel bar, when he's not operating on people, his chauffeur bring him in Rolls Royce and wait for him outside and he will come to that bar and when we had operation finished, so we can work we used to go in evening to East Grinstead to have a drink or to cinema and return to hospital for next operation, and sometimes he will meet us in Whitehall Bar and have a drink with us. He was like our friend; our advisor, our surgeon and all the doctors in those days were so friendly, you know, with the airmen. When they had some time in the evening they used to, we meet in certain places and have a little drink or chat, yes, and he was also advisor to us. And when I had demob, I went to see him and I said Sir Archibald, I said, I have letters sent for my demob. So he look at me, he said listen, he said I would not advise you to sign for the Regular. Because in those days when you were young still, you didn’t have to take demob but you had to sign for the Regular, for seven years or fourteen years contract. He said when you take demob now, you will be entitled to your pension and he said if you have problem we find you job and you’re sure. He said you sign new contract, suppose you get discharged for some reason, what you didn’t obey the rules or something, he said you lose all your entitlements. So he said I advise you, you take your demob you see, and I had to listen to him, you know what I mean, because he was, he was to us like our doctor, advisor and so on. And I took my, and I had two jobs after the war. Och, I tell what job I did. I did twenty years in rubber factory. You know why I did in rubber factory? Because owners of the rubber factory were members of my wife club. Listen, my wife said you are mad going. I said Evelyn, you have business, but I want to be independent; I cannot work with you because I say I will ruin your business. She said why? I said listen, your members come to the club, they will buy me drink, I have to reimburse them drink. I said I have to feel I’m the same like them and I said your business will go bust! I don’t want nothing to do with your business, you keep your business, and you see the sister of the owners of that big rubber factory was her friend. They used to, went to school together and she used to come to my wife club. And she said to me listen, I take you to my brothers and I tell them they have to give you job. So I said Sonny, I don’t know if I would be able to do the job. Don’t you worry, I tell them what they have to do with you: they have to teach you. I in one year I was supervisor, I could sell rubber, anything, rubber tyres, whatever rubber you see, because they train me as a supervisor because their old fellow was leaving the job after sixty years. That was big rubber factory and I start I thought I just work year or two, I get enough money to get some deposit on some house, because my wife always paid flats, you know. She was renting in Albemarle Street that’s near Ritz Hotel, almost, where our Margaret Thatcher, poor thing, died yesterday, and she said because she wanted to rent near the club because she always walked from business from hotel, to her flat and she paid lots of money. I say Evelyn, I said you work so hard and I said half your money is going for the, she said in this district you have to pay you see. So I said don’t you worry, I make enough money. So I bought old house, with the leaking roof in Holland Park because during the war all the houses in London were so much dilapidated because you get no paint, no wood, nothing, and I like the house. And the roof was leaking, stair was broken, I said to my wife, never mind, don’t you worry, I want this house. She said you’re mad! So I paid the flat one month, I moved myself with the dog [laugh] to the house; four storey house. In those days it was two thousand five hundred pound, but to earn two thousand five hundred pound in those days was like almost fifty yesterday, but every month I did something, a bit, you know and in the end you know, that dilapidated house you know, start going up and up in prices, you know, and when recently you know, the property went, you know, sky high, I would, in the end when my wife finished the club business and we rented up flats in Holland Park with her because even club was too much in the end because that’s a big responsibility. When she was young she was. Boys I must give you drink coffee, cake listen I have special cake made for you.
GB: Shall we take a little break for a moment then, we can switch the filming off and talk about some photographs.
JB: Listen quickly.
GB: I think you probably need a break more than we do, you’ve talked for about a whole hour! If you press the red button again the word record should come off the screen. [Beep]
JB: That’s right, plenty sugar.
GB: I’ll just er, leave that running anyway, might be some other bits that are worth, oh yes please, thank you.
JB: That’s why I don’t worry! [Crockery sounds] Long as your stomach enjoy it! [Laughter] [Pause] Well I’m so glad you came all the way from Lincolnshire to see me because you see we spent so many years in that part. I used to love Lincolnshire, Yorkshire, because the countryside in summer beautiful, you know, yes. Lincolnshire, I used to go with my friends in Lincoln, when they had racing in those days. You know that was first race in the spring what used to start.
GB: The horse racing in Lincoln, yes, yeah.
JB: Nowadays that’s went to Doncaster.
GB: But the old grandstand is still there.
JB: Still there, yes.
GB: And the racetrack is there, for the horses, but nobody races any more.
JB: Yes I know.
GB: Still run at Market Rasen.
JB: Yes, oh yes, that’s right. Yes, Lincoln was lovely – that Cathedral, every time we used to coming to land we always had to joke and be careful captain don’t touch the thing! [Laugh]
GB: Well we’re delighted to come down to see you and we’re looking forward to when you can come in May, not just because of the time at Faldingworth for you, but also hopefully the next morning on Sunday, and I’ll speak to Daniel, to come and visit us, to see how the renovation is going up on the site. Cause we’ve got the old airmens’ mess where the Junior Ranks, but we can walk round the corner to the old sergeants’ mess, the big long building, that’s still there: the farmer keeps chickens in there now.
JB: Oh boy!
GB: But, and there are one or two other buildings that are still there, including the old control tower, but that’s been changed now; the present owner has turned it into a gymnasium I think. There’s one or two things on the old airfield, and if the weather is good for us as well we can drive you round and stop at different places around the airfield and you can tell us if you remember certain things. Many of the old buildings have gone now, just because the farmers, they’ve either fallen down or the farmers have knocked them down to make a bit more room for the fields.
JB: You know last time when I went and I saw, saw that overgrown airfield, I thought to myself, every time we shall return, we thought that was our home, you know that. Yes. You know you, when you came out from the plane, you thought I am at home.
GB: I’m at home.
JB: You see the trouble was, when you used to miss your friends and you went to dining room and you saw that table empty, and that table empty and you think to myself I wonder when this table will be empty? Because we always used to sit together at the same table, the crew.
GB: I was going to ask you did the crews sit at set tables, you had your own crew table.
JB: Yes, we had our own chart, and at one time [sigh] my crew, my squadron, had quite bit of bad luck, you know, we lost five crews in short time and Bomber Harris came, paid us unexpected visit. So in evening, we didn’t have flight then, the adjutant said we will be meeting special guest in one of the hangar. So have a, all good shave and wash and after tea get yourself into the hangar. Because this guest come, we thought who it would be? Maybe King you know or, who, and he came with the car and he had little talk with us. He said, boys I came to see you because you look bit depressed, and I know why you feel depressed. But he said, that’s what happen in, during the war: some time we going to happy day, sometime we going to depressing days, but he said I tell you what I want to tell you - I’m exactly telling the words what he explain. He said our friend Germans always had ideas to start the war, because he said, by starting the wars they used to make good gains. They invade other people homes, destroy their homes, rob their homes and bring the loot back to their own country. And he said people in their country never saw the destruction and suffering. But he said, I came to tell you, with this war, we going to take destruction and suffering into their [emphasis] countries, so the Germans will know what war brings, and memories. So he said for the first time we’re doing that, and by doing that we’re having those depressing days left in our memory, but he said this will not last for ever. Sooner or later the rest of the world will start to be happy. But he said is getting very near when that success we achieve, but success is in front of you, so don’t you worry; it will not last forever, you know. And that we give him because we knew that he was under pressure to do that you see, because not only he, the Russians press him, because you know what the Russians knew, the Russians say if you not going to help us, the Hitler will, he had planned to, was the destruction of Dresden, because the Germans had very big concentration troops there and they wanted to contra attack Russian’s advance and Stalin said if you not helping me they going to chase me back to Stalingrad and the war may completely change still in the last phase of the war. And that’s why destruction went to Dresden because they were preparing lot of last Germans, you know, contra attack on Russian’s advance you see, because the Russians was pressing with all their strength because they didn’t give Germans chance to recuperate, you know what I mean, and by doing so they were gaining the successes. But they knew they wouldn’t be able to do it for much longer. That’s why the destruction went on Dresden, because, to completely wipe out the Dresden. We had such heavy losses in Bomber Command you see, because Bomber Command support the Russians, and support our troops. Our troops. Our invasion on Normandy coast, without Bomber Command going and smashing fortification from Baltic to Atlantic, none of our troops would landed on Normandy coast. The Bomber Command helped them you see, to bridge it, just because they had so fortified, you know what I mean. They, they were, Germans nasty, nasty people. But Bomber Command, paid the price and achieved the result in the end. More cake boys? Yes!
GB: I’m all right thank you.
JB: Now listen!
GB: That’s not good; that’s on tape now. My wife will know I’ve eaten cake! [Laugh]
JB: That thing is red.
GB: Is that the warning? I think it is.
GB: Yes. Is the red thing on?
GB: Yeah, it’s flashing and it’s got green, it’s not got the pause. It’s just the battery usually. Is it on the screen is it? Does it say red?
GB: Just record on it.
GB: How many hours left does it say?
GB: Nine hours thirty six. If I can read without my glasses.
GB: It should be quite a lot because it had had about four years worth of recording on there, everything from when Hayley used to swim. I cleared all that off last weekend. My camera when we bought it about three or four years ago, probably little bit longer than that now, we just recorded everything from family holidays to everything, it’s got quite a big memory on there so this last weekend I wiped all of it off, well saved it onto my computer so that we knew we would be chatting for quite a while today, so you know, we’ve left it on so.
JB: It’s nicely set I think for our height, you know, so.
GB: It captures you just here nicely, with us out of the screen.
JB: More coffee? Listen, I’m not going to charge you no more because not hot. I make you hot. [Steps] [Pause] We have a hot coffee this time!
GB: Oh! Okay, thank you.
JB: {Banging] Listen, next time you come to [indecipherable] we won’t be strangers you see because you’re our friend from Lincoln, Yorkshire. Yes.
GB: Well next time you’re coming to be our guest, aren’t you, in May, you’ll come and see us.
JB: You see, which way round, Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, Bomber Command. Here in [indecipherable] they want fighters, you know, and most Bomber Command boys lived there because they had friends and so on, so they remain there.
GB: In Lincolnshire everything is all about the Lancaster and they forget about the Wellington. So because Ingham was purely Wellington squadrons, this is it, we go Lancasters, Wellingtons.
GB: Line them up!
JB: Wellingtons give us the start, yes, yes, they give us the start.
GB: Never heard anything back from Malcom.
GB: Malcolm?
GB: Everett from Nottingham. His uncle. Polish. He was in Fighter, he’s a Fighter. He’s over in Canada. [Indecipherable]
GB: Colin did say that quite a few of the Polish WAAFs are coming to the Faldingworth thing, and [emphasis] the Nottingham Polish scouts.
JB: This time you have the good coffee!
GB: Oh right. We have the rubbish coffee first! [Laughter]
JB: Yes that was it!
GB: I thought you were just seeing how the visitors were going before you give us the good coffee maybe!
JB: You came long way you know, to see me, and sugar, help yourself to sugar. That’s right.
GB: I’ll move that back. There we go. [Sounds of movement] I’ll come and sit this back here a little bit just so that it faces more the front.
JB: Thank you. Yeh, you see, the trouble was, not many people remember the history, but I tell you what I want to tell you. In the old days Poland was country surrounded by three very big power: Russia, Germany and Austria. At one time, many years ago, Poland was the strongest nation in Europe. We stop Turks’ invasion on Europe, but our history start change, you know what I mean, like every country, you know, in future. And then at one time Poland went under occupation of three big power: Russia, Austria and Germany, and we stay under their occupation for hundred twenty years. When the First War started, after hundred twenty years we regain independence, and we’d been destroyed completely, left like that because the biggest battlefield went on the Polish land, you know, between those three superpowers, Russia, Germany and Austria. But when we got independence, for twenty years, England and France was only our far neighbours what we could depend. The rest we still been surrounded by er, not friendly nations, like Germany, Russia, and even Austria and then there was Czechs, Lithuanians, I mean those country, encouraged by the Russians, by the Germans, to cause Czechs against Poland. They knew what that new country, after fifty years to gain independence, was very weak nation. But we had only two countries what we thought we could depend little on friendship: England and France, and we kept it. But in the end we knew in Europe what the Second World War is brewing. But one thing what I have respect for England till my dying days, what England had the guts to stand up against the Germans. No other nation in the world in those days. They all were frightened of the Germans. When the Olympics started in 1930-
GB: Six, yeah.
JB: The Hitler show well his superior power, you know what I mean. And when that Olympic finish, everybody were in fear of the Germans’ superiority. But England, always they were big Empire in those days, they knew what the Germans to them also are big danger, you know, because they knew what the Germans always were creating to regain their superiority in the world. When 1939 came, England only had the guts to stand up. Even French was hesitating in the end. They, you know, were not hundred percent sure, but in the end they had just to do it, but they didn’t do it with heart, no, you see, and the French being senseful were truly bluffing in the end, what it ended that way, you know what I mean. What in the end the Americans got themself involved, because the America didn’t want to it come to the war, and we had very, but in the end who stood up only? England and Poles on this island; everybody was running away. I remember, I work in London, in some parts, in Willesden, where lots of Jewish community live. Rich community, nice houses, and it was at night. I took girlfriend I met in the dance, it was very dark and she promise me she stay with me if I take her home because she was frightened afterwards when dance finished. I said I take you home. I took her home and I was walking back to the Paddington station, I had small room there where I working, and I walk through Willesden, where was half dead. Houses, windows were boarded in, everybody, lots of Jewish community fled to Canada, or somewhere, because they thought the Germans inevitably coming here. And when I walked through that empty park, I thought to myself, will it really happen, you know, what everybody so frightened you see, but that how it was in London. Certain parts in London they were almost deserted too, you know what. I don’t know where people gone, if they gone to different parts of the country but some of them went abroad. So you see, the world, because I went through the beginning of the war till the end, what this country, with Mr Churchill in the end, as the warmonger, I think maybe he was wrong sometimes, [laugh] he didn’t know what he was doing!
GB: We needed a strong leader.
JB: He kept going, you know what I mean! He started in the First War, in didn’t go according to plan everything, but when the Second War came he was about one of the best, you know what I mean, what could come at that time. And he took bluff, he bluff many times and he was biding for the time, because that was only hope what something will happen. And yes, we may don’t like the Japs, but good job what they attack Pearl Harbour, you know what I mean, and they made Americans to come into the war.
GB: Big mistake for them.
JB: Because otherwise I remember the war how every day I was studying the events from day to day and only when Americans go to war you could see the laughs on the people’s faces you know, because we knew now we are not alone and that happened like that, yeah. But from beginning it was hard going but in England with Mr Chamberlain, he was, he believed Hitler from beginning. The trouble was with him, every time he go meet Hitler, he come back, step on Croydon airport: ‘There will be no war, I have signature in my hand.’ But Hitler did not have honour to tell the truth: he was just playing for time, you know what I mean and in the end he knew what he made blunder because he believed him, he believed him, and that’s why he had to resign and coalition became, you see.
GB: Don’t forget your coffee.
JB: That’s right, and you see by bluffing that time, when Mr Churchill came, what Americans got themselves involved, and that, he made also mistake, attack Russia, too late, because he wanted you know, for his stand place petrol and he had not petrol, petrol running out. Every time he had any reserves somewhere we used to bomb there, you know what I mean, and he could hide no longer and he was desperate. He started in North Africa, yes, he won Alamein but it was already with Americans help, yes, okay, you see. Because Rommel, you see he got himself involved in Russia, could not help Rommel in North Africa. Of course, Montgomery beat Rommel you see, but they prepared themselves, up to here Germans you see, when they started but they made lots of mistakes and we gained it. [Laugh] You see that’s how war go. Sometimes you see, you almost have victory but mistake costs and to put mistake right Is very costly. [Laugh]
GB: Can I ask you Jan, about?
JB: Ask me anything.
GB: Can we talk about your, when you came to, when you first came to Britain and joined the RAF, as a Polish airman, can you tell us which, did you fly in or did you come by boat and where did you come to? Tell us a little bit about about Blackpool because I think that was your first- the Polish Depot.
JB: I think you touch one of the most important ones. My father was soldier in the First War and we, when the Russians, the Germans were defeated, Austria collapsed, Poland start re-emerging independence, my father was in Polish erm, in Polish Army. When the Germans collapsed, you know, in 11 11, the Russian wanted to invade, under the Bolshevism, the rest of Europe, because Europe was so tired of the war. The France was almost collapsed; England was very bad unrest, because suffering for five years in the First War and the Russians people who starved, they were hungry of food because the big pressures was on Russians’ Front too you see, and we beat the Russian’s invasion on the Vistula river, in Poland. Because how we beat the Russians then, when they wanted to invade the rest of Europe – Bolsheviks. Because the communists was breeding, wanted to overthrow the monarchies, in Germany, in Austria out, out. England sent small reinforcement because the English Royal Family were linked with the Russian Royal Family and as you know, in the First War, Russia, and England and France and very strongly united.
GB: [Beep] Carry on. Right we’re back on again.
GB: [Indecipherable] battery at the same time.
GB: So were you going to tell us a little bit about how you actually came to England.
JB: Alright. Before war started, my father knew the Second War would always begin sooner or later, and he was fighting against the Bolshevism in the First War. When the Russians had very big defeat and they were always warning what, you know, they will return. That was the, always sign. And he saw, he saw the First War destruction and he said to my mother what he don’t like to see Second War. He had the idea what the war will come and would be same thing what happened in the First War, so he sold his possession in Poland and in those days was very big emigration going to Canada, America, South America, Brazil, Argentine, and my father went, decided to go to Argentine, to start plantation there. We went on the boat from Poland. When I was passing near Dover Strait, I saw the white chalk of Dover, I thought to myself, I had been at school having so many lessons about England, what the democratic system in this country, how near. I could see it but I cannot be in, on that coast to see it. You know how it’s in sight you see, because England was always in Poland very important lectures done you see, how it is leading modern nation in the world. Anyway, my ship continue through the English Channel, stop in Spain, stop in Portugal, stop in North Africa, Casablanca, Dakar, then cross to Brazil, off Brazil went to Argentina, BA. My father you see had already planned where we went to settle down in Argentine. We went there, bought lots of land. I thought to myself what he's going to do, forest? He said we will start plantation: plant lots of oranges, bananas, all different type of wine grapes. I went to school in Argentine to learn Spanish. I was already fifteen year old, where you, during break play football, so some of those Argentinian he said you cannot play football. Then, you know, I shoot goal. No, you didn’t score that goal, you bloody fool! I said what did you say? I already knew how to ask him what this he say. He says something again, I punch him in the face. He will go to teacher, report what I misbehave at school. The teacher report to my father, your son not behaving properly at school. My father said listen, you going to school to learn Spanish and learn the Spanish history. I say father I’m learning but I said, I’m not happy. I said they not going to call me what I don’t want you to call me. [Laugh] He said but you don’t have to fight with them I say sometime you have to. [Chuckle] Anyway, I continue to listen to father. War started; I was already nineteen. English Embassy, French embassy, Polish Embassy calling for volunteers. You don’t know how many volunteers came from South America to this country, from Brazil, from Argentine. They were all different nation joining, against Germans. We had three English ship, the Royal Mail had, big English company Royal Mail, going continuously because English had so much investment in Argentine, they were building railways in that huge country. All the meat factory, because Argentine is one of the biggest meat producer in the world after United States. Frederice Angelo, the factory, when the trains come with the, all the stock from the, those huge provinces with the, to the factories, whole train, you could see those cows inside in the train going from beginning of the factory when slaughter start, in the end of the factory, all ready, ships taking all the meat frozen to different parts of the world. England had lot [emphasis] of money tied up in Argentine, lot; big companies, big companies. And when war started lots of volunteers, English, French, Polish start, because Embassy put, advertise, need people. We start, we been put in the hotels in BA, never know what time we going to leave because the German submarine was all over waiting and all those big boats what were going from Argentine with meat supply to England, and volunteers, we used to sleep on the hammock; we had no beds. All the time you have the salvage tied up in case the boat is torpedoed so you jump into the water to save yourself and we had at night a turn we had to watch with binoculars for German submarines somewhere, and our boat – huge! Royal Mail had three: Highland Moorland, Highland Chief, Highland Princess: four big boats. Continuously they used to cross each other, one coming already from England, second come and they used to hoot each other when they pass each other, crossing the Atlantic. And they used to never come to Southampton, the far as they come to Belfast. Unload in Belfast and go back. Belfast then go back. I came to Belfast and first I felt bombing [laugh] and what a souvenir, imagine! And from Belfast they shipped us to Scotland, you know, at night. And from there to Blackpool and from Blackpool to Evanton in Scotland on the train and we be start training day and night, in hurry because the war was in hurry, you know what I mean, to train. We had sometime few hours sleep, you know what I mean. In Scotland we were living in huts. Those round huts, you know.
GB: Nissen huts.
JB: In the middle we had coal fires, chimney. In morning cold, we had, river was passing near our hut and the wooden boats was from the river, we had to wash ourselves, shave ourselves, quickly before the you know, our duties start. And coming in Argentine during that time was summer there, we came here it was winter. In Scotland dark [emphasis] at night in winter time, cold. First I had to go climatise myself to Scottish weather [chuckle] and start training there. When we got first training then we been shipped to Midland, that was better, you know, better. Then when we finished training in Midland, we then joined to the squadrons you see, and in squadrons was much better, you know, much better life. Yes. So you see I start my way, come from Argentine, was seven hundred of us on that boat coming, on Highland Chieftain, big boat, twenty two thousand ton, and we, German submarine all over South Atlantic, with that Graf Spey what they could not catch, that big German er, battleship what you know eventually they caught him near Montevideo, what they, being sunk you see; we start training. Then, you see, when I was start to fly I done few ops from my OTU. First we been doing lots of leaflets, throwing over France. ‘Don’t you worry, we beating Germans in three months, war finished!’, to give to the French people! [Laugh]
GB: So they were your training runs.
JB: Thousands! Then afterwards they send us bit more deeper in Germany to drop few bombs, you see. And then I, we had our accident and I came out on my own from my crew, because my plane got broken, Wellington. I lost consciousness during the accident and when I woke up, I recover my memory what we had crash and I saw everything in fire. [Pause] I, I was squeezing myself; I’d been trying to get my pilot out of, out of his seat, but I think he was still tied up with his, and I couldn’t get him out and in the end I was running out of breath because I could not see, I could not feel, and I start to crawl back and when I crawl back the plane was broken in half, so I had to exit where I got myself out. When I got myself out, my uniform was burning on me, because some parts, some parts I think got wet with petrol, so those parts when was wet, or when I touch maybe, when was trying to squeeze myself from the plane were fire, and we crash near farm, and the people run out from that farm and er, [pause] they tear my clothes from me you see, but I was, I lost my helmet because during that, er, er, during the crash, you know what I’m, impact, I was you know, I was somehow thrown, my helmet was thrown, so I already burn my hair and good job what they torn my flying [indecipherable] out because otherwise I would got probably burn you see with my uniform. We crash near farm somewhere, very near.
GB: Was that in England?
IJB: In England, yeah.
GB: And your aircraft at that time, was that a Wellington or a Lancaster?
JB: Wellington, yes. And I land myself in Cosford hospital, Royal, RAF hospital, that’s where we crash near, and they soon give me, I was in such a pain, but before we crash, the pilot notify flying control what we are in trouble you see. You see during that time our plane not been serviced properly, we’d be in such a hurry training, training, training, and our plane not been hundred percent sometime, maybe, fit to fly, but if you too often put what there were certain problem, you’re gonna some time maybe you don’t, just don’t want to fly, you know what I mean, so you had to do it. Now if something not working In the old days You see now sorry.
GB: Can’t fly.
JB: But in the old days small problem you just have to -
GB: So your crash happened when you were on the OCU then?
JB: Yes, you see, that plane was continuously refilling it up, refilling it up, you see. They had not enough time to service properly. Anyway, I don’t know what was problem but the pilot signal what we are, you know, going down you see. Then I land myself in hospital, but with pilot notified, he give a signal, we going to crash land, you see. It was at night time and when those people took me inside to their house, I couldn’t see them because everything was red in my eyes because my eyes was also burnt you see, from the flame, so everything was red, and he give us, the pilot give directions to the plane control exact place where we been heading to, to crash, and the ambulance came in about half an hour, but I was in such a pain, such a pain. I still remember that today what, and those people were offering me cup of tea, something I couldn’t touch, nothing, because my hands was, but they were talking to me. And I land myself in Cosford, RAF hospital and they start giving me injections to lower the pain, and in the end, in the end when I woke up, that was somewhere I think in afternoon and we crash in evening, so it was long time, and I just look at my, everything, I was embalmed, but I still could see very little through my, one eye I could see ward, what everything was when I look on my hands was full of bandages and the doctors start came and slowly they start talk to me what to get better, you know, start tell you and I spent there three weeks. And Sir Archibald McIndoe, that the big plastic surgeon from East Grinstead, he used to go visit different hospitals in England, also see different cases, the Air Force fellow who burn, in different locations, and he was surgeon and asked them to be to transferred to his hospital in East Grinstead. So he came and spoke to me. He said you, do you know me? I look at him. I said no. I am big plastic surgeon from East Grinstead Hospital. In those days I didn’t know East Grinstead! I said where, he said East Grinstead near London. Oh yes I said, yes, I know. He said that’s where you come to, I’m taking you there! He shout at me! I say when? He said tomorrow you will come. I said thank you, and you see they transfer me with the ambulance to that hospital, and that was proper hospital there because there was modern facilities, good staff, beautiful hospital. Every time when I pass near I always go visit there, you know what I mean. And the people there, in East Grinstead, they so kind, because some of the boys so badly burned, if you would saw some cases you will close your eyes. Their faces, eyes, ears, no hair: completely [emphasis] new faces, you know what I mean. They had to repeat, because fire is a shocking thing, because fire damage. I was in my life couple of times drowning because I was swimming and in the end I got in some very steep, deep hole what I couldn’t get to the edge of it you see, I was drowning, in the sea, but the fire is the worse enemy. The water is bad but the fire is even worse, you know what I mean. You see I spent there six months and the hospital was every night new cases come, at night. People shouting at night. They bring them on the trollies with pain, from different accidents; tell they could have done with the injection, with the pills you see. So as they, they bathe you little. They keep sending you to diff, to units, because hospital could not cope with so much overloading. Then you do certain time and they recall you back for to continue. So they sent me doing instructing in the gunnery school you see, because I already had few ops behind me, they used to call me, I was capable to do that job what they been so desperately need. So I used to go with those gunner, Lysander used to have that air bag and we going in [indecipherable], that’s a twin engine plane with the two, when the gunners in turn go and shoot him. They sometimes shooting bag, shooting the pilot [laugh], pilot shouting on the intercom [laugh] stop you bloody thing you know what you doing! The bullets flying over my head! [Laughter] Because you see the student you have to tell gently, you know, he somehow press on the trigger you see that turret moving fast you see, so you get him out, you see, you put another one, you say listen when you turn it you must turn gently not so sharp! I said once you pointing on the airbag, once you pointing at pilot head! [Laugh] I said you shoot down the pilot you get into trouble, you get me to trouble you understand! What you doing! So I kept it for six months then I went back as I told you, back to my squadron, then I start to feel to be like home, you know what I mean. Yeah. Because there was, you did your job, and there was no shouting at you, you had more respect, you know what I mean. On this gunnery school I mean I was already instructor but still you had to stand up as a, you know what the discipline, to show them what they must be, you know, example to be, know what I mean.
GB: What rank were you at the gunnery school?
JB: I was Warrant Officer.
GB: Oh Warrant Officer. And was it just Polish.
JB: I had Warrant badge.
GB: The students you were teaching, were they English or just the Polish?
JB: Mixed. There was Australian, there was Canadians, you see, there was Poles. Some of the Canadians been coming already trained, some of them been finish here you see. In the end my squadron sometime, because we always had about eighteen crews operational, from my squadron. So some time when we had replacement we had to have backup from the Royal Air Force because we had, our crews were still due to be, er to come, so we had some spare crews coming, flights. A Flights or C Flights you see, English Section, because we always sent about eighteen planes you know, on the op.
GB: On op.
JB: That was big, big, lovely aerodrome for headquarter, new build by Wimpey, beautiful there.
GB: What, you obviously can remember the date, what was the date of your crash?
JB: My crash, yes, 1943, about three weeks before Christmas.
GB: So yeah, beginning of December ’43.
JB: Yes, somewhere, because Christmas, I tell you, I never forget that Christmas till my dying days. We had Christmas tree, beautiful tree, and you know, first when you badly burned, every day they take you to have a bath. They take your pyjama out: top, bottom, beautiful two WAAFs, nurses, WAAF officers will come and take your dressing gown from your hands, face, because that dressing is with oil, so the oil doesn’t stick to you. And they have to keep changing those dressing gowns till skin heals, you know what I mean. So they have to keep clean every day you must have a bath, they run bath full of water, imagine, from beginning, young man, you go to bath and two beautiful nurses you know, take your dressing gown, afterwards you get used to, but from beginning you almost, you shy to look them. They used to because they already been doing that, but you from beginning. And that Christmas, Bing Crosby sang White Christmas. Anyway, before midnight there was nice atmospheres, nurses were singing, the lights weren’t on and afterwards we had spare room so they turned the lights down and I had radio, and Bing Crosby sang ‘White Christmas’,’ and that touch you, you know what I mean. And I was then in the little room, lights very dimly lit up and I thought, if it is Christmas, that special day, what it touch you so much, you know what I mean, with that song, and every time when I ever heard him singing that song, you know, it remind me that day I was in that hospital you know what I mean. Because that Christmas was such a thing, once you land yourself in hospital and you knew, when in the past you always mix with crowd of people, and this time you was on your own, was very, very sentimental, yes. You know even now, you say, I’m sorry I’m probably bore you talking, but I want to tell you my exactly life.
GB: Oh no!
JB: Even when I go now, during Battle of Britain, when we have all big crowd here - I don’t know if you ever been here, by the monument?
GB: Yes, last September we came.
JB: I’m glad. I hope you come this September.
GB: Every year. We will come every year.
JB: You to us you are very valuable because you going to live lots of, you help us lots of history what we, you know, want to leave behind, because the war’s it is remain, all the history should be known. Yeah. So every time I go to that and when I see those face, my men, who, I’m telling you exactly what I, what to tell you from my heart. I think to myself why didn’t I die with them, you know what I mean, when I say their name because you think they gone and I left behind why should be? I should be there with them but it just happen like that. But some time you, you think you would be better off if you would died with them, you know what I mean, yes. You see friendship, you see, you probably will remember, when you facing, facing, death, and we are three of us together, [pause] is the biggest friendship, the biggest brotherhood you share together. Because you know you depend on each other. You see the same thing would have been in crew, seven, you knew defend each other life and when you miss one of them is probably more than your own brother, you know what I mean. The sort of friendship, you sort of develop friendship. If I see my English crews like I, before [crashing sound].
GB: It’s all right. I’ll get it.
JB: Oh sorry, I’m sorry to give you problem. Oh thank you.
GB: That’s all right. Gone everywhere.
JB: I have lots of more memory, I lost lots of my different records, but I’m still holding [paper shuffling], oh, yes, yes. That’s all right. [Paper shuffling] I thank you, you’re friend.
GB: I’ll move those on to there.
JB: Yes. That’s lovely. [paper shuffling] Look, before we have our statue erected, few years ago Daily Mail was, I miss some daily, because that was every day different added story, I thought why don’t we have our recognition? Even Churchill betrayed them; the nation turn its back. So should we still feel duty, you know what I mean, and in the end we got this monument because every time I see them I was the same like them and I felt what the people forgot us. But you know why? When war ended, the Germans call what was that’s biggest barbaric system done on Dresden, but so many and Mr Churchill slightly turn us back, to give the most recognition to Fighter Command. But we never forgive him because who were Fighter Command, they just stop, delay invasion, in the end Hitler said I will come back to you later, I’m not in such a hurry, but the Bomber Command, who from beginning till the end, went night after night, day after day, from beginning nobody could touch Germans, only Bomber Command did here and that’s why we pay such a big casualties.
GB: You took the fight to them.
JB: We had to go for eight hours. The fighters -
GB: Would you like to sit down.
JB: Yeah. The fighters, listen!
GB: There we go. [Paper shuffling]
JB: Thank you. Sometimes they jump in their Spitfire, they come back and the cigarette still left on ash tray, burning. When we had to go, we had to go for eight hours, over their sky, over their land and face them for eight hours, you know what I mean, then return to English Channel, that was sacrifice and you see people always talk with mistake: Battle of Britain. We only stop invasion but he still had so much power he went on Russia, because he was running out of petrol, that’s why he went in hurry to get, he start North Africa, no success, Then he said well, the other way: I go on Russia. And if he were to take Russia much early probably he would succeed, you know what I mean, but he attack them bit late and winter came and delay him, and why delay? Because Bomber Command, night after night, went over their sky, over their cities, over their whatever places what it hurt them badly, you see, and made destruction and who in the end lost the most people? Bomber Command – yeah, we paid the prices. And we should be, now we have our statue. Every time we go there, we know what only, I went there, Duke of Edinburgh pass with the Queen and I sat in the second row of chairs. So I waved to him, he turned, he said I know you from somewhere! So I turned to him, I said so you should Your Highness. He saw me from somewhere! I often talk with Duke of Edinburgh because he is our President of the Guinea Pig. When we have our dinner before, in East Grinstead and when he is not abroad or somewhere he always come to dinner with us and he eats, every time will enjoy pint of bitter in the bar and he talk with different voice. Then my English colleagues said to him, they bring him what they said that’s a Polish airmen, he stay with us. So he turned to me and said oh, so you not in Poland? I said no because I said the Russians don’t like me, so I said I’m still here. Oh so you here, where you living? I said I’m living in London, Your Highness. Oh in London! I say yes. Whereabouts in London. I said I’m your neighbour. You are my neighbour? I say of course I’m your neighbour: I live in Royal Borough, I said, I live in Holland Park. Oh, but you never come to see me, I say don’t come to see you because you have so many fellows with rifles and stuff! [Laughter] So he said but, you have to tell me, you are my friend – I said they don’t listen to me! [Laugh] And he laugh and he went andgo talk with somebody else, you know, he’s a very. People say talk to Duke of Edinburgh what he’s such a, you know, he’s just the same, and he will have same food with us and he enjoy joking and telling us some nice story. He said when I go to different meetings I have to be so careful because, he said, if I make something, they up to it and he said next morning in the press lots of things done to it. He said with you boys I can talk and it’s no paparazzi [laugh]. And he will have same pint of beer to start, and he will walk in bar and chat, you see you never can press yourself to start talking with him, but when he is brought to you, then you can have a chat with him you see, [laugh] then, yeah. So, he said so you are living in my borough? I say yes, I say I have been living before you, because I said, I know you got married after me [laughter] when you came, and the fellows who escort him laughed, you know, because I remember when he got married, and in Hyde Park we had all different groups from Colony come, and they had in Hyde Park, in the tents, accommodation, you know what I mean. So I said oh yes, you became my neighbour much after me, I say I came after the war, yeah, because, and he, he few times he came to see us and after, when dinner finish, quietly to take him through back door and back to London, yeah.
GB: Can I ask you a question? When, you said when you went on operations and you went for eight hours, can you tell us a little about what it was like? Did you spend all eight hours in your gun turret, or were you allowed to walk up and down the aircraft? Did you take a little bag with a flask of tea and sandwiches? What did they give you? Tell us a little bit if you can about an ordinary mission.
JB: Yes, I tell you what. We used to take coffee with flask; strong black coffee with drop of rum, drop of rum, and pilot will always, from time to time: Jan, you all right, how you feel? All right skipper, don’t worry, I’m watching, watching, don’t worry. Oh we just want to know, you know, he communicated with one each other ever so often, you know, so, because some time certain fellow can fall slightly sleepy, you know what I mean, so we keep in communicating from time to time, but I, you see when I went second time after my accident, and the new crew came, they were feeling what I was to them like, superior, because I already had few operation before me and I had to tell them, before we went on first op, I said listen, I can advise you one thing what you have to do. What you have to keep your eye left and right all the time, because if you going to keep that, what I’m telling you, you probably will have much more chance to, because I said the Germans come so quickly and so unexpectedly what, before you notice it’s too late, so you have to see him much before he see you you see, and I said you must keep eye on each other so you all know what you’re doing, and you keep looking. Because I said, pilot has his responsibility and you as the gunners, you have your responsibility, because you have the responsibility for the rest of crew. I say you have your guns and your guns is for defending ourselves. I said some of the members of the crew, they have no guns. Well you have the guns and you have to give that, you know. They felt, you know, like I was to them, bit more superior because I already had few ops you see.
GB: You had the experience.
JB: Yes, that’s right.
GB: How many operations did you go on all together do you think?
JB: About fourteen.
GB: Fourteen. Did you, it’s a delicate question to ask, but did you manage to shoot down any Germans?
JB: No. I had one, I had, who wanted to attack us, and I don’t know why, and he kept following us for while, but I think he knew what we saw him you see, and he was coming, was lowering himself down, from the back he was following, but never took attack you see. And I, to the mid upper I said look, look he’s on your right, on my, on my right from the back, watch him, watch him, he’s going to do something! And he follow us, I don’t know, or he had not enough guts.
GB: Maybe.
JB: Because Germans too also, not everyone was not brave, you know what I mean. And in the end when clouds came we went, because when clouds came you run into the cloud, you don’t care what happen, if you collide with something long as you get away, you know, so the most danger night it is when it’s moonlight. When we go on bombing and is full moon, is almost fifty fifty chance, you know what I mean, because the Germans could see you like in daytime, you know what I mean, and long distance but when is certain over cloud, over target, is, you see, very, very big to us, future to survive, you know what I mean. Because you don’t care when you see the fighter is attacking you, if you have near cloud you run into the cloud, you know what I mean, and he will be frightened to follow you because you know, you can collide, but you, to save yourself you don’t care.
GB: You go into the cloud.
JB: You will do it. Yes.
GB: Did you think yourself, you obviously with a rear gunner in a Wellington and then also in the Lancaster, what was it, what were the guns like, were they powerful enough do you think you could have better? Because they kept changing the different armaments that you had.
JB: No I think Lancaster had better, they were more modified, more superior, movement and erm, effectiveness than Wellington. You see every, from Wellingtons they made lots of improvement into the Lancaster and you felt the second, what you been, not two gunners, it was three of you, you know what I mean, and the Germans knew, when he would attack you from the back, he would have two gunners against him, you know what I mean, instead of one. Because Wellington is rear and front, so he know the front, he’s not bothered about the front, he only, and the German fighter, first of all, when he attacking you his first idea to kill the rear gunner, because once he point on you and he, he upset your defence, then he know he got the rest, you know, easy way. So his first idea to have eyes set on the rear gunner you know, and he will always attack from the back, very seldom from the side, because from the side is so big speed, what he cannot catch you in his gun sight, but when he follow you from the back he has distance.
GB: A still target.
JB: And he get you right in his circle and then you are, you know, almost in his mercy you see, yeah.
GB: Did you have any armour plating in the rear turret at all to protect you?
JB: No.
GB: Nothing at all.
JB: No. You just, you know, you had good visibility, but pilot had, pilot had. From beginning we had sometime two pilots; one and assistant pilot who’s doing first trip or something. But afterwards you train pilot for Lancaster four engine; it take so long what they couldn’t afford it to have two pilots so we had one, yes. Maybe some time first trip, some time, when the pilot, Commanding Officer knew, what he need to send with the second pilot, so they send him to give him one trip, what to experience, you know what I mean.
GB: When, when you came back from each operation, was there a certain time when you were able to relax? When you were still in the air, coming back from an operation, was there a certain time when you came over the British coast or was it further inland than that?
JB: You know first of all when we just been over Holland, to Belgium, even France, we felt little better, but when we came over English coast at least you know you were home, yes, [telephone] you knew what maybe some Germans here but they so scared over our land when they have no time and because sometime we will come and the Germans will be around here you know, so we had some diversion you see, yes. There were occasion we landed on American bases. That was good because we could get cigarettes you know, [chuckle] and bottle gin, and bottle of gin! And you can have a beautiful food whatever the time of the night you like, because kitchen is always open you see. So listen, next time you come back to your station all your friends after you because they knew you’d been diverted to American station! It was like you know [laughter].
GB: Are there any funny stories you can remember when you were on operations, up in the air, the funny things that happened in the aircraft? Can you remember any funny things that happened with your crew when you were up on operations?
JB: Oh yes, yes! Sometime you know there is certain job, fellow sitting, he said, listen you know what this, our skipper doing now? He turned, he completely turned his course, he sort of [indecipherable] going on Berlin, I say you’re joking! No, no he’s something, doing wrong! Listen, you don’t tell me he not so stupid to do such a thing. Only jokes, you know. But jokes is all right if is quiet, but when is sometimes hot you know what I mean, there is no joke, there is no joke, you know. After, when we get from the danger, we can joke, you know what I mean, yes.
GB: And your time when you were back on the ground, on the stations, tell us a little bit about your life on the RAF stations, if you can, in between operations. What was your normal day on the ground?
JB: I’ll tell you what we’ll do, [sigh] I was very good snooker player, and you know when I learned very good snooker? When I land myself in hospital and we had recreation room and three snooker table. So when you not in bed, you go to that canteen, have a cup of tea or coffee, and sometime play game or two just to pass the time, and I had you know, very good talent for the snooker and some time - I’m glad you ask me that because I cannot remember everything, so when you ask me certain question I sometime give you interesting answer - that Sir Archibald McIndoe, what he was such an important person in Air Ministry, if he phoned to Air Ministry and he said listen, I want twenty professional nurses: my hospital short of nurses. After two days new nurses come from Ireland, because most Ireland supply beautiful trained nurses, young girls. And they come to hospital and after one years hospital short of nurses because boys married them, you know what young boys, and they soon find themselves husbands you see, but anyway, that Sir Archibald McIndoe also liked play snooker. Sometime he will start operating from seven o’clock in morning because the more they operating those people, the more some of them they finish them in to do the service again, you know, it was like you know what I mean, conveyor belt. People coming in and going out, coming in and going out. So he would start operating early, certain cases, and lunchtime sometime, you know what he would do to me? He will call me, to my, I will be on Ward One, he will ask sister, sister call that Polski – he called me Polski – so sister say, hey Polski, your boss want to see you, So I get on the telephone. Yes Sir Archie, what can I do? Listen Jan, reserve table one o’clock today because I give you game. I give you three black start! I say thank you Sir Archie. Yes, yeah, because you have to learn little bit more about snooker! [Laugh] So he bloody come, I will already have a sandwich for them, coffee, because he will play snooker with me and have a sandwich and coffee because he, then we finish one game listen, we have a quick one, another one. So instead of one game we will have two games, we would have sometime he would not even have time to finish a sandwich and coffee, but two game he will finish, and then he will laugh. Some time I specially let him win the game because that give him satisfaction. He will go back to operating room, he said I beat that Pole, because he thought he will beat everything! But he said I told next time three blacks is not enough for him, next time, listen, so that give him satisfaction. And he loved playing snooker. When he will meet us in bar, in Whitehall, in the evening, not every night, but from time, he usually know Friday or Saturday was the best time to meet us, he would always talk snooker to you, you see, because he loved that game and he used to play with me and with other fellows you know, but he always used to like play with me because I supposed to be quite a good player what wins them, because they all knew, so he used to enjoy beat the best one. And he was really nice. Some time he will ask us, he lived in East Grinstead, New Forest, that’s a little outside town. He has beautiful big bungalow there. So sometime he few us, he ask us for glass of beer into his, because we all had cars, you know, in East Grinstead, because lots of people sold cars cheaply because petrol was so expensive, some of people had cars but no petrol so you could buy petrol for, car for twenty five pound in those days and you know on the station you always been able to get petrol.
GB: Little petrol here, little petrol there, yeah, yeah.
JB: So we go to his, that little, that nice bungalow and he will have a drink with us in his sitting room and afterwards sometime he leave us, because he said I have to get up tomorrow morning, I have to go to London and we will have a game or two in his you know, also have a drink and afterwards go back to hospital. He was really our friend; we, we, when he died we felt for him like he was our advisor, doctor and father, you know what I mean. And he had so much influence, you know whatever, because when the Queen and King came to visit, he was the right hand man, you know what I mean, and Queen and King from time to time visit that hospital because it was all the Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, you know, colonial boys too and you know Royal Family often pay visit there. He was, and he was such an influential,so. Whatever he wanted to gain you know, something, he had his voice was respected everywhere. Yes.
GB: Do you remember back to the names of the crew in your aircraft when you had your accident?
JB: Yes, I yes, that my second crew who died, I have in my book – this one.
GB: Oh, in, how do you pronounce his surname. Is it Jerzy Cink, is it Cinic? In Polish, how do you say that name there?
JB: Ah, Cink. Yes, Cink.
GB: Cink, I’m just going to use your toilet for a moment. Brendan wants to ask you a question.
JB: Just here, first on the right, go there. First on the right. Yes, just first on the right. [Cough] I’m sorry I, [cough] do too much talking, but you see I have to tell you whatever, because you came long way and if I don’t tell you I forget, you know what I mean. I find when my second crew got lost. Four hundred something. Thank you, yes, put that somewhere. [Crockery sound] Yes, thank you.
GB: I presume, this book references, I’ve seen copies.
JB: Put that, yes thank you. [Long pause] Yes, you see here, I.
GB: Page [indecipherable]. Three hundred Lancasters.
JB: Oh yeah, here you see.
GB: Oh right, marked.
GB: More heavy losses on the first raid in 1941, attack on [indecipherable] on the night 2nd of January VHJ?
JB: Yeah. That’s my crew. Konarzewski, yes.
GB: Right. That was the aircraft. VHJ.
JB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where is Konarzewski? [Pause] No. There is the car. [Footsteps] [Crockery sounds]
GB: All marked in here as well.
JB: That’s right, yeah, Jan Konarzewski, oh yeah, that’s my crew. Second one.
GB: VH-J then. EB722.
JB: Yeah. That’s my crew what I was recalled to hospital, they went and, and that fellow was instructor, and he was in Hucknall, Hucknall.
GB: Mmm. Nottingham.
JB: And afterwards he got so fed up he said, he went, he came to our squadron and pass all the training and he was made Group Captain. Because for his services, for few years he was instructing, and imagine just before war ended, went on the flight, and you know what I mean, and crew vanished, yes. I mean different from beginning of, this end like er, that fellow, er, our ace, what in the last war, before war ended, went over Belgium. One was um, my memory, my memory you see is, er, Group Captain, Group Captain who had the most bomber, the highest Victoria Cross in Bomber Command there.
GB: Polish or British? English? Do you mean Guy Gibson or Cheshire?
JB: Guy Gibson. On Mosquitos. He went just before the war ended, in last few days, over Belgium and was shot down and killed. And the second one was er, er, his wife also contribute a lot, Group Captain Guy Gibson and second one was er, he had the most, the most trips, he was the most highly decorated – Cheshire!
GB: Leonard Cheshire.
JB: Leonard Cheshire. They were, my friends, I, listen, Leonard Cheshire had gunner in Holland Park. I tell you why, I will tell you history, fact, why Leonard Cheshire did so many trips. He was the highest decorated man in the Second War, Leonard Cheshire. He was first as a Lieutenant, made first tour, and when they finished first tour they had given holiday, everyone went different directions. One live in Scotland, one in Wales, one somewhere in London. When they return from that holiday, they all been given different, afterwards, type of duty to do. But his crew came back first, day before, from his, from their holiday. He came on second day, it was on Saturday he came back, and somebody tell him, oh your crew went to the local park to have a drink because one of the fellow is having birthday. So he get in his car and go to that park, and he said why have they just spend holiday. Oh, we had lovely holiday, one was in one place and one in another! And they said so what you doing here? No he’s, Jack having holiday, birthday, so they his birthday so we have drink, skipper, we buy you drink too, what you have? So skipper he says Oh, I have a bitter. Well he said listen boys I have the news what I will be transferred to London, to Headquarters, I will do office job now, he said I don’t know what you going to do. Well skipper, we decided today, as we having that birthday drink, what we going to continue to fly till end of the war. You know they got drunk and decided they not going to take, you know, different jobs; they want to fly. So he said when did you decide to do that? Oh well, Jack had birthday and we had drink, we thought you know, it’s nice to continue. And he start to feel sorry for them they going to fly without him. So he said why didn’t you told me that before? Well we didn’t know that, but we somehow came back from holiday and we decided the best thing for us to continue. And he start to feel sorry to leave them, you know, behind. He said now I have to do, rearrange everything you know if I want to stay with you. No they say, you don’t have to, you know, you decide for yourself. So he decide to fly with them second tour, he decide to fly second and third tour you see, and that’s how his story went. When war ended, he knew what Polish Air Force contribute to the Second War. He was lovely fellow, Leonard. He went to visit Poland, with his wife, and he saw some Poles who went back, because some left their wives in Poland, you know, and when he went there and saw some of them, or some of them already by communists badly treated, badly, you know, went through different interrogation, you know, he decided to build in Poland few, to those homeless people, home, to the ex RAF who went back to Poland and he found them in such a suffering, with his wife. So the Polish government made her Baroness of Warsaw, you know, his wife.
GB: Yes, yes.
JB: Leonard Cheshire became Catholic after the war, he went to Rome and he made application to Pope what he want to become Catholic. You know why? Because he made so many trips and sometimes he said, the, his guilty conscience was hmm, touching him, maybe so many trips what he made maybe the bombing, maybe some suffering to some people and he thought maybe to ask God forgiveness, because he was half religious person, you know what I mean. Probably that’s why did so many trips know what I mean, and his wife spent half of the time in Poland when he died, you know what I mean. Because she was doing some charity job there and she was well respected you see, in Poland. That’s Leonard Cheshire. But I tell you one story about him. You see when I live in Holland Park fifty years, all people knew me – oh that’s ex Polish airman, that’s Polish Guinea Pig. Our Police Station, all Police Station knew me because two girls from the station rent the flat in my house so when they have time they will popping in for cup of coffee, when they had day off they would come and go by, oh, Mr Black, how are you, all right, we’ll pop in quick and have a coffee. I, you see I did and in one job after the war, twelve years in rubber factory and after, when I finish, I work for electric wholesaler, twenty years. Because I knew all the cities in England and my boss like me so much because he send me to Nottingham, Coventry, Birmingham. I know that city Doncaster. He send two fellows you see they couldn’t do the cover because you see they had no experience to be in that part. I work for big electric wholesaler, [telephone ringing] so I very seldom saw my boss because he send me, all my customers like me. When they ordering, want to put orders, they asking on the reception they want to talk to me. Because when they talk to me, I promise them what I will deliver them tomorrow or after tomorrow for sure. When they talk to the boss, he take the order but long as he take the order he doesn’t bother if he deliver on time! So you see all the customers got to know me. They phone for the orders, they want to talk to me, because they know, what I, and they used to give me always good orders. You respect the guy what’s ex you know RAF and so on. So my boss was jealous of me. He said I don’t know what you do with your friends, they phone me, they only want. I said because I tell you why, I said when they order with you, you take their orders but you don’t bother to deliver on time! I said when I take order I sometime don’t sleep the time that I will deliver them, that’s the difference. I said, yes, I said and you thinks, you know, because you know I do that job, so he was also ex-Army fellow, you know what I mean! But yes, you see, I was starting, where did I start, with them, yeah, so you see, I had two jobs. Second job I loved because I had independent job. I used to travel all around the cities and in the end I went to my boss and I said, listen, when I start the job you told me it will be London. Then it was London, then afterwards you said it outside London, it was outside London, [beep] I said now we spreading all over, Scotland, Wales. Ah, he said Jan, but you don't have to hurry, you can stay in hotel, boarding room when you fine to. I said listen, I have wife. I said I didn't marry my wife to stay in Scotland, or somewhere, I said I marry my wife in London! I said no, no, I said. Listen, you know we in business we some time do more, some time less. I said yes, now every year is more and more and nothing less, but in the end he said well we will be changing so, but for time being. So I had lovely job, but it was you know, responsible job, you had to do it: nothing for nothing you see. And when I come back now, what we did war days responsibility and when war ended how we had to be also, you know what I mean, doing the job, you know what, we had nothing given for nothing you see. Now people never satisfied, you know what I mean, yes, lots of changes yes, and that’s why, maybe now, we cannot afford certain things, you know what I mean, to give so much. Like now they, wanting flats in Westminster for thousand pound you know what I mean whatever, you know, weekly, because these days you see time change, yes, you know what I mean. The Chancellor, the present Chancellor, Chancellor cannot do so much, if he cannot afford it he has to do it.
GB: Looking, looking back at your time when you’re in the Polish Air Force, in the RAF, do you look back at it now, I know you have some sad memories, and some, probably memories you prefer to forget, but as a whole thing, what do you, when you look back now, what do you think of your time in the RAF, how do you view it now?
JB: RAF, you see we live, it was days when we never knew what tomorrow’s going to bring; we used to live from day to day. But every day, when you had chance, you enjoy it, because you been catching. I’m glad you ask me that. Sometime when I was stationed in beautiful parts in this country because England have such a beautiful scenery in certain parts. This country is so much, compared with different parts of the world, so nicely preserved, so nicely upkept, you know what I mean. I used to take bicycle, in spring, and sometime go quietly for nice cycle, and I would stop that bike, and see beautiful flowers, beautiful flowering trees and I think to myself: how God made this planet so beautiful. When you some time visit you never look that, you never think that, but then when I find the time and you see that beautiful thing in front of you, those birds singing, you think to yourself I wonder if tomorrow will be such a beautiful day. If I go tonight and never return, you know what I mean. You been thinking that, you know, if you survive that one. Because when you young you something like flower growing, flowering, you don’t want to die, you know what I mean, because you full of life, you know, and see all that thing beautiful round you. So you see when you’re young person you want to live, that remember, and when I used to see that beautiful thing round me, the river, and I used to drive, cycle in those quiet place, beautiful county Lincolnshire and I think that would be shame, you just want to live now [laugh] and you facing that, the worst when some time you going to take off you see, Once you’re airborne you just feel phew, you can breathe, but the take off is always a bit of, you know what you up to: start. The second time when you go on target, when you already been there before, and you know when it’s lots of German guns there, you know, when you have on the briefing, because when you come to briefing, and our briefing officer with his long stick and big map, start pointing and you think to yourself: not that bloody place again! [Laughter] You know.
GB: Were there times when you were in the big briefing room, when they told you about where you’re going to go, so you had good locations, and not so good locations, and bloody awful locations, and was there like a groan round the room and things like that when they told you? I presume the first thing you knew was in the briefing room when the senior officer stood up at the front and told you did you?
JB: Listen, when he’s telling you about that what you already been there, you want him to finish quickly [laugh] without no mentioning them, what they have somewhere back [indecipherable] because they will tell you when, before you reach that place somewhere where you will have obstacles too, you know, so you just, you please will you finish quickly, you know! [Laughter]
GB: Where would you say, remembering back, where was the one [emphasis] place you didn’t want to hear that you were going? Where was that? Was there one place or a couple of places?
JB: Yes, one, one I remember.
GB: What was that?
JB: I remember Gelsenkirchen, that’s in industrial part of Germany. At one time I thought, I thought my plane was, you know what I mean, going down. I said to skipper, I said Jan, what the hell are you doing? I said, I cannot shift in my turret! His name was Jan too, Jan Konarzewski, he was Group Captain and I was Warrant Officer. He said Jan be quiet, I’m frightened, he’s shooting at us and I have to get away, he said, don’t you bloody shout! [Laugh] Because I, feel, listen, they in front, they don’t feel that, but I, in that bloody turret, when they turn and put that [indecipherable] I fucking feel my feet is going down! I said listen, hysterical here, you know what I mean, he say hysterical here too! [Much laughter] But, you know what I mean. In the end I know he’s not doing that on purpose you know what I mean. But I said you did bloody make me nervous, I thought you know that’s it, I said I didn’t know what happened. He said what he saw those flares coming up him and he just couldn’t, wanted to avoid them or something and that’s why he turn. But some time you know, when you try to avoid the desperate moment you do so many funny things, you know, you just don’t care, you know, in those days. And some targets are, Germans, they were, oh they, I must give them that, they had terrific, you know, defence, you know, on certain. I never been over Berlin but the boys who told me once they gone on that, you know, he said they had good drink before, because they knew it was very, very strongly defended place because the Germans, specially wanted Berliners, to show them what, there was nothing to worry about. Because that Goering he told German people what there would be no any planes coming in the sky, you know, he gives them such a surety, you know what I mean, and after our plane on Hendon Museum, it said who made over hundred trips over Germany [laugh], yeah; he was giving Germans to Hitler such assurance, what they don’t you worry, I see them all you know what I mean, yeah.
GB: Have you, we’ve obviously got the Wellington in Hendon, and the one at Brooklands. Have you been inside them, at all? Have you been to see them at all?
JB: Only Lancaster, oh I take lots of people from Poland.
GB: Yes. To Hendon, the museum.
JB: To Hendon, yes, that’s the first. When I have some visitors I tell them to. Listen, I went to Argentine because my sister lived there, and er, [pause] and I went to museum and I saw were Lancasters in Argentine. In Buenos Aires there is one in the city and I thought to myself where did you beautiful things end you see, land yourself here? My sister said to me Jan, I didn’t wanted to call you back because I knew you been something so much attach. I said – my sister called Marcella – I said Marcella, I could stand on that plane and watch him and talk to him. I said what you would probably would be tired waiting for me. I said Marcella, because that plane bring me so much memory. I said for you is probably difficult to understand. I said, when some time we went on operation and it was very, [pause] very, I said, scary. And when we came back, we touch his wings, we kissed him, that’s why we been grateful what he took us there and brought us back, you know what I mean. I said Marcella, you will not understand me why I will stand outside him and I feel sorry what he so far away, yeah. I telling you this story, story from my [emphasis] life, what I felt sorry what that plane was so far away and we have only couple left now.
GB: Indeed.
JB: And those planes helped us so much to win the war. How we got rid of them, you know we been sending them on scrap and these are such historical planes - they helped us to win the war.
GB: It’s the same with the Wellingtons though, isn’t it.
JB: Wellingtons, Spitfires, look now we looking in Burma, those planes what were buried somewhere. You’ve heard that.
GB: Yes, yes.
JB: I mean what they were shipped there all that distance, and it was too expensive for them to bring them back, you know what I mean.
GB: So they buried them.
JB: So they buried them and they looking for them now, and they are somewhere because if they would be sold or something it would been known by now.
GB: They made a lot more Wellingtons than they did Lancasters during the war, and after the war they obviously sold quite a few to different countries but the rest were all scrapped, scrap metal.
JB: Scrap, yes, yes.
GB: What they would give for a flying, a Wellington that was flying now.
JB: Oh yes, oh boy, yes.
GB: Got an alarm that was all.
JB: Yes, you see, I mean those planes to us they were so I mean historical you see, what we flown in them they been to us, what they are part of us, I, when I go now to Hendon museum, you know, some, I like to go some time on my own because when I go on my own, quiet, yes.
GB: Quiet, and your own time, I understand that.
JB: And I, because I know every plane, what type of duty he was doing here and I think those planes helped us to win the war, because without those. You see Poland, what I want to tell you, we were new country after hundred twenty years occupation by those three nasty neighbours, we knew what the Second War will be, the biggest part who will play – Air Force. We train lots of people to be new country born in Eastern Europe, but we had not enough money to build the planes. But we had well trained pilots, been flying. We been producing small planes what was, we were selling to our poorest countries, for training. As the war started we had our own production plane, but very few. What came, just came to beginning of the war, but nothing compare with Great Britain like Spitfire, Hurricane or Wellington.
GB: They were very special.
JB: They were more superior. But the pilots had lots of flying hours in Poland, we train lots of people, we knew the Air Force will play big part. When that war started, you see the Germans attack us unexpectedly; we knew they would attack us sooner or later, with the Russians they made treaty together. They were friends, Hitler and Stalin together, and England said no, you see. And the Russians, when Hitler was fighting England, Stalin was helping Hitler, sending him whatever he needed because he wanted if Hitler attack Britain; he was encouraging Hitler. You’ve got France, England next. Because you know why? Because he was preparing to stab him in the back afterwards, and in the end Hitler knew that. Hitler knew that. That’s why they from beginning as the friends then in the end turned enemies you see, on each other. Well you see -
GB: Sorry, go on, no.
JB: When war ended, England, didn’t know much about the communist because they were separated for the rest of the world, they did wanted people to know how suffering they live, had bad situation because that was communist, you know what I mean, and they not never been friends of our. They became friends because we had to help them. Because we had to help them because we been frightened if we don’t help them the Germans get hold of their essentials what they need, so we had to help them, but the Russians weren’t really our friends, you know what I mean, not like during the monarchy days, like when they were our friends. We sorry what we didn’t help them because probably if we would help them in those days, we would been able to squeeze the Bolshevik, you know what I mean, because those people only went there because they were suffering with hunger, with the condition. But we, we also been so weak, after the First War, what been not able to help them, you see. But I mean the Russians, look now, they now more friendly because they have big enemy – China. Sooner or later Chinese will make move and the one move what they will make is only that big territory, what they want. They don’t want nothing else. Up to now they been doing trade with England, America; they manage to get by, but when the trade start to slow down, the Russian, the Chinese have everything now what they need, and the Russians now not making with us no more trouble, you see, living very quietly, very scared not to touch them, you see. Putin holding here.
GB: Maybe.
JB: But not for very long because people knew in Russia what they want change, because the rest of the world is living better than them you see, and the people will make a change sooner or later and Putin holding, but that empire is not the same what it was, you see, is breaking down. Look like that big part Ukraine, yeah, is broke down, the Eastern Europe what broke down, they just holding, but time come.
Let me just switch the camera off now, cause I think there’s probably not much time on there anyway
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jan Black
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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03:08:22 audio recording
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SRAFIngham19410620v040001
Description
An account of the resource
Jan Stangrycuik (Black) was born and raised in Poland. His family emigrated for a better life in Argentina when he was a teenager, but when the British Embassy called for volunteers to join the war effort, Jan answered the call and sailed with seven hundred other volunteers to England, where he joined Bomber Command and trained as an air gunner. He was the only surviving member of his crew when, in 1943, his Wellington aircraft crashed, near RAF Cosford, escaping with severe burn injuries.
He recalls his time in the RAF, including his recuperation from his extensive burns under the care of Sir Archibald MacIndoe with whom he became friends. He became one of the founder members of the Guinea Pig Club. He talks about life away from flight operations, of his exploits whilst on leave in London where daily life went on albeit under the threat of bombardment. It was where he met his future wife, an English woman who came to see him regularly at the hospital in East Grinstead, as he made his lengthy and painful recovery back to health. Jan later returned to duty as a gunnery instructor on Lysander aircraft before returning to his squadron and resuming flying operations.
Jan talks about daily life in between flight operations; how one lived day to day, because each day was precious, how crews had their own table in the dining room and wondering if the table next to them would be empty the next day.
He also shares anecdotes about, and pays tribute to, Guy Gibson and Leonard Cheshire who he knew and considered them friends. He recalls his fondness of, and conversations with, Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh and, at the time, President of the Guinea Pig Club.
Jan also reflects on Polish history and the aftermath of the war. After the war he settled in Britain, working all over the country, until he retired.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Creator
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Geoff Burton
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Argentina
France
Germany
Great Britain
Russia (Federation)
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Blackpool
England--London
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Chris Cann
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1941
1943
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crash
ground personnel
Guinea Pig Club
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Lancaster
love and romance
McIndoe, Archibald (1900-1960)
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021)
RAF Cosford
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Hendon
RAF Ingham
Spitfire
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1561/34801/SRAFIngham19410620v050001-Audio.1.mp3
92d5b5c5d9c9fb7f27931456435273fa
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Ingham Heritage Group
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RAF Ingham
Description
An account of the resource
25 items in six collections. The collection concerns RAF Ingham and contains interviews photographs and documents concerning:
Andrzej Jeziorski - Pilot 304 Squadron
Arthur Hydes - Boy in Ingham
Brian Llewellyn -ATC
Jan Black - Rear Gunner 300 Squadron
Lech Gierak - Armourer 303 Squadron
Marion Clarke - MT Driver RAF Ingham
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak - Armourer
Stanislaw Jozefiak - Air Ops 304 Squadron - Pilot on Spitfires
Wanda Szuwalska - Admin 300 Squadron Faldingworth
Zosia Kowalska - Cook RAF Ingham
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by the RAF Ingham Heritage Group and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LG: They made like from July 1940 to October end, that was like ten weeks or something, called Battle of Britain, which 303 shoot down hundred forty six planes. The most, nobody else done that.
Int: The highest of any squadron, British or Polish.
LG: That’s why they were famous, you know.
Int: Are we about ready; are we ready to go, are we actually up and running? The camera is on and the recording there is on. So could, we will start with some very basic things. Could you tell us your full name and where you were born and when you were born, please Lech.
LG: Well my name is Lech Gierak and I was born in [indecipherable], Poland, which belongs now to Lithuania, you know. And my mother was schoolteacher, school mistress like, and my dad was bank manager and when the war start, my dad couldn’t, demob, you know, go to the Army and that and then there was only six weeks when Poland was beaten and my father come, and about two months after, the Russian police come and arrest him, and he got twenty five years prison for it, because 1920 he was fighting against the Russians; so he got twenty five years for it and he died there, in a Russian prison camp. Me and my mum was sent to Siberia. That was April 1940, and we were near Omsk and they put us in er, wagons like [sigh] what they called, you see the Jews put in.
Int: Cattle wagons.
LG: Cattle wagons like, cramped up like, you know. Maybe five or six families in them and they wouldn’t, the first thing they let us, when we past [indecipherable] when we stop they let us out to have wee and otherwise we used to have wee there and then, you know, inside the thing.
Int: In the carriage, yeah.
LG: They took us to this town called, near Omsk, anyway, and being I was still young they send me to school, in Russia, and er, they was all, some of them, mostly the young lads like more or less Hitlerjugend. They were like [indecipherable] and when I come there they start, because next day, where they give us shovels, kids, you know, women, to dig and they come and say, oh look at them bourgeois start working at last! You know. But they were more like Hitlerjugend, used to [indecipherable] anyway, and when the war start between Russia and Germany, they let us free and they made a Polish Army and I run, to join, from Omsk down to Tashkent, which is, er, it’s at Kazakhstan. It’s a very big country, it’s about, you can put about five, six England in it, you know. It took me from Omsk down to Tashkent about two days, on and off like, you know what I mean, and then from there we went to oh, [pause], the lorry comes and we went through the mountains from where, [sigh] on the border like, and when we come to the border the lorry stopped and we come out, and we went to the people what look what you are taking and some of them had their rings and that all, they took it off us. Not me, I had nothing but some of them, and said that’s Russian gold, you can’t take it, you know. Anyway, we come to Tehran and from Tehran we went to Iraq, and camp the night there, and from Iraq we went to, I went to the Palestine and then Egypt. They opened the schools and er, to teach us to be what they called Technical Officers, something.
Int: This was at Heliopolis was it?
LG: At Heliopolis, yes, and then I fancied to be a pilot so I volunteered to come to England. I come to Liverpool, they gave us cup of tea, twenty fags, then took us to Blackpool, and there they sort us out, whoever wants to go, you know any trade, anything. I passed for pilot school but had to wait because you know like, there were schools there already, when they finished another one comes.
Int: So you had to wait for a place.
LG: So they end me to Scotland.
Int: Where was 303 Squadron at this point, when you arrived?
LG: Pardon.
Int: When you went to 303 Squadron, where were they based at that point? Where station were they at?
LG: That was Northwood for, I should think about two months, maybe less, and then we went to Framlingham, somewhere, I forgot it, because wasn’t long there, only about six weeks or something and then send us to -
Int: Coltishall.
LG: Yeah, Coltishall.
Int: You mentioned that earlier. Can you tell us a little bit, Lech, about what an average day was like, as an armourer? What did you do? What was your accommodation like, what was your breakfast like? How a normal day went.
LG: Well, the, Coltishall was pre-war station which had a like nice barracks down the bottom, top, and er, it’s all went to, like armoury, and get a, it wasn’t like: ‘oh you got like from nine o’clock till four’, you just carry on and been, you really hate Germans, it made no difference, it didn’t, you was trying to put whatever it is so you could fight the Germans like, know what I mean.
Int: So you worked as long as you had to each day, then.
LG: It wasn’t like eight o’clock till four o’clock, you just, one day it might be ten hours, or twelve hours, or something like that. Because it was, you had to.
Int: What was your main job in the armoury? What was the main thing that you were good at, or that you had to do, for the corporal?
LG: Well we, oh we did what is, put some bullets, because that was like that, it was a cannon, one cannon and four machine guns. You fill that up and the cannon was like a pole thing and they put it in, I think it was about five, six hundred bullets in it, you know, on top, and the rest on a machine thing [cough] and that was it. Once you done it you just wait till they come back.
Int: Did all the bullets and the cannon shells, did they come loose or did you did you have to actually put them in like a chain link?
LG: It was like, yeah, they like already inside, like ball thing and put it on.
Int: Right, you didn’t have to load up the ball thing itself: it came already done.
LG: The other one was like, thing, what do you call them? Like a belt, more or less, you know. I think, don’t remember how many, but it, I think it was over two thousand bullets for each.
Int: For each belt?
LG: For each thing, you know. And then when we come to Coltishall, they put corporal and that, put us to Station Armoury when there, and when they were guns, cause every pilot and that, all the aircrew were issued the guns because from beginning they didn’t and then when they got shot down and then the Germans killed them or something like that, so they had, according to them issued a gun.
Int: Do you remember what kind of guns they had?
LG: It’s, I think it’s those, what you call it, they got a chamber and six, you know, like a cowboy’s got.
Int: Small one, like a pistol. So a revolver.
LG: Revolver, yes.
Int: Revolver.
LG: Everyone had the issue with that, so yes. When they come used to give them like, and put name down and that. Then there used to be rifles for airmen. They used to go on the shooting range and that. Then the Officers, they used to go with the guns and shooting, so I used to put a target and look and they used to write down whoever had a gun and you know, whoever it was. Then I er, they opened this school, because when I was in Heliopolis, I had a like, to go to the top in Poland you had a like gymnasium which was four years and then [indecipherable] two years. I finished the gymnasium in Heliopolis, but to have A levels had to, so I put my name down and had to send it to Faldingworth [cough]. That’s where I met a friend, he was a Warrant Officer, he had sixty eight missions. He had a DFC, DFM, because if you were sergeant, or a flight sergeant, because what it was, if you went as aircrew, the lowest rank was sergeant and if you were a sergeant or flight sergeant and you flew over and er, for bravery they given DFC. But because you were a sergeant or a flight sergeant you, all the other rank had a DFC; they had DFM, you know. So after that he had DFC and DFM because later on he was a Warrant Officer like. He made sixty eight missions and that, so. Did you know there was a, one air gunner, he made hundred twenty five missions, over Germany, and if you had done thirty missions you didn’t have to fly, that’s you, finished, most of them used to carry on. He was air gunner, most missions as air gunner of all the Air Force, [beep] I forget his name, [indecipherable] something like that, but. Then they had a dog; had two dogs: one called Warrant Officer and the other was [indecipherable] that was in 300 Squadron. This dog used to, [cough] because when they were taken by lorries, you know, the aircrew, and this dog used to jump first.
Int: Into the lorry?
LG: No, into the plane.
Int: Oh, jumped into the plane first!
LG: But that one day it didn’t and the crew didn’t come back, you know. So there was lot of -
Int: Lech, you’ve obviously just been talking about Faldingworth.
LG: Pardon?
Int: You’ve just been talking about Faldingworth and your friend who was a Warrant Officer and then he became an officer. How, when, what was the point in the war you were posted, you went to Faldingworth? Cause obviously you’d been with 303 for most of your time and then you moved on to 300 Squadron. [Cough]
LG: To finish my A Levels I went to finish the thing for my A levels to go to university.
Int: So you did that at Faldingworth.
LG: They opened the school, special, at Faldingworth, aye. So I met all the fellows, how it was, like.
Int: I think you may well be aware Faldingworth is only a few miles from RAF Ingham where we’re based and 300 Squadron were obviously at Ingham and when they changed from Wellingtons onto Lancasters, that’s when they moved to RAF Faldingworth. So they didn’t ask you to be an armourer at all at Faldingworth? You were just purely there for the school.
LG: No, I just went to school there. But there was another, there were, then they come, what’s the name, Mosquito squadron, I think it was 309, they come to Faldingworth now, and after that they just finish and they sent us to Skipton on Thwale.
Int: Yes, yes.
LG: Some of them want to go to Poland, whoever and that, you know, and I put my name for Poland and my mother wrote, said don’t come because they’ll arrest you, they used to arrest, not everybody, but arrest might be fifty percent, you know.
Int: These are Polish people who had been in the RAF?
LG: Yeah, when they went to Poland from Army, you know, Army or Air Force. So I didn’t, so they sent me to Church Fenton on a, as armourer there. It’s station, you know off there, and I was there for a bit. Used to go er, you know, like airmen with the rifles on the range, officers with the guns and everything, and then I got demobbed; come to Derby. I start working selling this and that, and the thing was that you had to, [pause] we were treated about, maybe worse than the German prisoners of war, because we had a, you had a little book with the photographs and everything, and you had to, change, if you changed address, in seventy two hours you had to report on the police station, but change, otherwise you get, you know, so, and they say like, some of the factories wouldn’t take Poles and took German prisoners, you know, because they let prisoners out! And when I got married, her father didn’t like me because he was an RAF Squadron Leader and that. He like me after, but from beginning.
Int: No.
LG: [Pause] Some of the factories took the prisoners to work better than, you know, the prisoners, German prisoners got free, so they employed German prisoners; they didn’t want Poles, you know. But I got married and I had three children, and the wife filled the form for a house because I couldn’t afford to pay and the wife went [cough] with the forms and he says is he British? She says no, then can’t have houses, so shove it, and friend of mine says well, they want miners down Stoke on Trent and there’s new houses so I went down mines and I got house in three weeks’ time and I worked for about fifteen years and then I come back to Derby.
Int: What, er, when did you marry your wife? What year was it, do you know?
LG: 1949. July
Int: 1949. A good month to get married, nice and warm and sunny.
LG: Pardon?
Int: Was it warm and sunny?
LG: Yeah. Then I have three children.
Int: Do you ever talk to your children about, about the war years and your family history?
LG: Yes! My younger son he joined ATC and that, you know, but the other, the eldest one, he was a priest, a Catholic priest and my daughter she was the [cough] shorthand typist for office working like, you know,, but after she joined, she went to hospital and on the end she was like a matron, because there was no matron, there was like something officers or something you know, they called them, and that. She lives down Congleton, comes back once in a while, three times, four times a year.
Int: Lech, if we can just go back to your time when you were an armourer, were there any funny things that happened, because in service life, and RAF life, and Polish Air Force life there must have been some funny things that happened at work? Do you, have you got any funny memories of things where people played a prank, or did daft things? Even in the war I’m sure people did play pranks on each other.
LG: Pranks?
Int: Or daft things that happened. Do you remember any things?
LG: Well, I forget now. Yeah, used to have few pranks, but you know, recall now, that long time, you know. But er, I enjoyed my life in RAF you know, and that. I was young and had, I er, I could have signed on a time. When I went on English, you know English station at, down Church Fenton and Commanding Officer called me and says do you want to join, and the smallest was five years, you know. And he says er, but going to, once you’ve joined more or less they’re going to send you overseas, I said nah, I don’t want this, I wasn’t in Poland, you know, my mother was thinking not going that far.
Int: And did you, obviously cause with Poland’s independence a good few years ago now, have you been back to visit Poland?
LHG: Yes, about twenty times. I had a caravette, I went with, I took my two granddaughters for about four weeks and used go round, go all round Poland. Had a caravette to have a cooker and a fridge and that. We used to have breakfast in the morning and dinner at, was very reasonable, cheap and that so we used to have dinner in restaurants and, but, um, you see the thing was, is, that after, I show you, after the war, when the parade was, you know, Victory Parade, then they never invite Poland, Poles, at all: that’s it. Which, I think it was very naughty of them, in a way.
Int: We’ve heard this from quite a few of the veterans that we’ve spoken to.
LG: The problem was that the Labour Party come, which they were really communists, some were, because they were in the Labour Party because the communists didn’t go through, so what they did, they joined the Labour Party but they were really communists, but the Labour Party was in power they done what they wanted like, and, then they were recognised I suppose, or whatever, we were on the same level like a prisoner of war, you know. I survived.
Int: Can you remember, I mean food is always important to all of us, but can you remember what, each day when you went to the airmen’s mess, and you would have breakfast, maybe a lunch and tea, do you remember what the food was like? Can you describe any of the food to us? The kind of things you liked, whether it was good, or bad or?
LG: Well, this being the war, the bread was more or less rationed in a way, you didn’t just have as many, maybe four slices, not that, three slices of bread and that, but otherwise I had pretty good meal like there. Well, I had eggs once a week [chuckle], meat, you know. So I think the chefs, whatever, they tried do the best they could whatever they had that like, you know. I enjoyed it.
Int: Were they English or Polish cooks, in the cookhouse?
LG: Well in 300 they were Polish, because there was whole station.
Int: Was Polish.
LG: Polish station, Polish thing but, and English, there was you know, like English station, you know, good meal, whatever, and if you’re stop, you know, like and that, at night even, they used to come and give you some meal maybe seven, eight o’clock; there was no times exactly during the war like. After the war, yeah, but not during the war like, you know.
Int: You told us earlier on before about the, when you were station armourer at Northolt and then also at um, Coltishall but they were both pre second World War stations so there was good, it wasn’t just wooden huts, it was all solid brick, brick buildings and things, so was your armoury, was that a brick building or was that just wooden buildings, or were you out on the dispersals? Could you tell us a little bit about where you were as an armourer, with 303?
LG: It was what you call, [pause] it was well, like I said, I only, [cough] when we come to Coltishall, me and the corporal, WAAF took us to the armoury thing on the station, wasn’t on a flight, you know what I mean, where the plane was, was on a building where guns was and that, and aircrew used to come, you had to write down.
Int: With the, Lech, with the Spitfires that you had, [beep] you said there were machine guns and cannons, did you, when you did your maintenance on the actual guns and the cannons, did you have to take them out of the aircraft or did you?
LG: On no, no.
Int: Could you explain a little bit about how you did the maintenance of them for us at all?
LG: Oh, you used to clean the barrels and everything like that and in the end put the things on it.
Int: Yes, a cap.
LG: Caps, that’s right, you know, otherwise just quick. They made more or less not too difficult because they want – they was flying they coming back, want, the last hundred bullets, before the last hundred bullets, there used to come about six bullets, used to tell you, white, you could see it, you know.
Int: Tracer, tracer.
LG: Tracer, yeah, so he, the pilot knew I got two hundred, two hundred bullets left, you know.
Int: Oh right. Right, so you had quite a few tracers in, before you got down to the last hundred or two hundred bullets.
LG: That’s right. You know, the belt, the last should I say oh, four hundred fifty, used to put about six tracers and they knew, he knew.
Int: He was down to last ones. [Chuckle]
LG: Had to be careful whatever it is, you know. So, but, on the end, what I heard, that the, well, the, a Spitfire, because the Spitfire only had three and a half hours flying otherwise they run out of gasoline, so they put the special tanks underneath and they start with those tanks first and used to drop ‘em. Because they, they used to guard Americans, plane, you know, and English bombers, you know with our Germans.
Int: They could get further with the bigger fuel tanks.
LG: Through there because German planes was waiting for them like, you know. But on the end, I heard they used to, I wasn’t then, but what I heard they used to have little bombs, twenty five pound bombs, I don’t know what they did with them, I couldn’t tell you, but you know, that’s what I heard. Those Spitfires, according to the books and that, there was about well, twenty nine, you know different Spitfires.
Int: Different Marks of Spitfire, different ones, yes. It’s possible.
LG: Different Marks and that.
Int: It’s possible, Brendan here would probably be a lot more of an expert on that than I am, he’s read many books on the subject.
LG: I think it’s more than twenty nine different, isn’t it?
Int: I believe so, small variations, not just the marks, but the changes in the same one.
LG: After the aircraft too, cannons and that, you know, but from beginning they had six, four machine guns on each side, but after they had like cannon and a four. [Pause] What do you call them?
Int: Sorry, Brendan do you have any questions for Lech at all?
Int: I haven’t really been thinking about it to be honest, checking the screen.
Int: I’m trying to think of something else, some other questions, that we can obviously ask you, because obviously this, the whole tape and everything will be edited, what we are talking about now, will be chopped out of the interview. But it’s really to er, look at your time with the Polish Air Force in Britain at er, Northolt, Coltishall and even the place that you were talking about near Framlington. We’ll have to have a little look and see if we can work out which station that was, and then obviously at Faldingworth. At Faldingworth, apart from doing the teaching did they actually get you doing other duties at all, being an extra airmen there on the station, or were you just purely there for the school, the school side of it?
LG: Where?
Int: At er, Faldingworth.
LG: Just the school.
Int: They didn’t get you doing any extra duties at all, of any kind? No, no, no.
LG: No, oh they, you know, [cough] school for there but then just as finish school it was -
Int: The end of the war.
LG: Well, was past the war like, but.
Int: Yes. So it was training, almost training you for after the war.
LG: I think it was, lot of them want to go back to Poland and that and then, I think it was the pressure from Polish communists, government, that er, you know, to settle down you know, because they took the planes from us and everything like, you know. There was no more flying, or nothing like that.
Int: During, during the war years did the RAF, did they give you much uniform? Did they actually give you many clothes, or did you just have perhaps one set of everything or did you, were you able to get more stuff? Did you have a friend perhaps, in the [laugh] Supply or anything like that?
LG: You just had a tunic and then a battle dress, well battle dress more or less, take it, to work like, you know, I mean. They give you the what you call.
Int: Overalls.
LG: Overalls, that thing, otherwise you had one set, one set of battle dress and another of tunic like, to go out, you know.
Int: How was the cleaning done? Did you have to clean your own clothes or was there a laundry you put your clothes in to?
LG: I had a little, a little thing where used to put your stuff in it, you know. What you call them?
Int: Washing machine? Oh, a little -
LG: No, no, no all your gear and that.
Int: A wardrobe you mean?
LG: Wardrobe like, you know what I mean. But [cough] every week, you could, whatever you want to what you call it, you had to put your name down on shirt, clothes.
Int: On all the clothes and clean them for you.
LG: Clean them for you like, used to collect them every week and that, you know. On all the stations, the same.
Int: Was there anything in the evening? What entertainment did you have in the evenings?
LG: Oh, used to have some, some of the dances used to have and that, is the special when I was in Faldingworth they used to bring the girls from everywhere for a dance, you know, and that.
Int: You didn’t meet any nice pretty girls from Faldingworth then? [Laughter]
LG: No, there was, there were WAAFs there, but they, I don’t think. Well, I wasn’t thinking I was just home to, you know. I used to go like Lincoln on the, have a dance once, once a month, or something like that.
Int: And did the RAF at Faldingworth, did they put a bus on or did you have to use the local busses to Lincoln?
LG: No, the RAF bus used to take you and used to pick us up by the station there, you know, Lincoln, station.
Int: And was there a set time that you had to be back at night for the guardroom to book you in and things, or not?
LG: No, I don’t think there was not that much bullshit [laugh] you know what I mean. We used to, they used to be what they call them, um, [pause] what’s their name, Salvation Army! They used to have a club there, or whatever, and for a, oh forget now, for two shillings you slept there and the next morning they used to give you two toast.
Int: Toast and off again!
LG: And beans on toast and cup of tea and that you know so, we used to stop.
Int: So yeah, if you missed the last bus then you could have the Salvation Army!
LG: Yeah, well, used to have a little minibus from station, used to standing there, by the railway station there, and phew, I forget now what time, eleven o’clock something like that and if you missed it – that’s it! Mind you the, I don’t know, that was about half past ten; the dancing was only ten o’clock in them days. There was no other club! [Laughter]
Int: So plenty of time to get back for the bus. Maybe. Well, is there anything else that you would like to tell us about your time in the Polish Air Force, in the RAF, during the war years, anything you’d like to.
LG: Well I enjoyed them both, Polish Air Force and when I was on the English stations, I was, you know, it was you know, happy, in it, but they, the problem was that you know, more or less to recruits, you know they come like and then they was pressing you whoever to stop, signed on like, know what I mean.
Int: There was one other question I was going to ask you and that was when the Spitfires at Coltishall in Norfolk were going up constantly all the time, was there a lot of pressure from yourselves, the team, your, the corporal and yourself in the armoury to get out, to reload them all up and then they’d fly straight off? Were there days and weeks when that seemed to be the case a lot of the time?
LG: Well I didn’t find, you know, I didn’t think it was a pressure, I was enjoying it, to do it, so they could kill the Germans, you know what I mean, had to do your thing. You know, so whatever I had to do, what hours, you know, I just enjoyed it, you know. If it was twelve hours I was happy to do it, you know, there was no thing ‘oh well it’s only four hours and that’s it,’ you know.
Int: Because it was your bit to getting back at the Germans.
LG: And cook house was flexible, they used to if you want you know, every time you come had a meal for you, they knew you was working and that, you know. But like when the war finished that was different then. But at this stage whatever station I was they were very flexible, you know. So there was nothing we have to go [chuckle].
Int: Did you play sport? Were you a good sportsman of any kind?
LG: Not really no, [laugh] no, not really. I like diving, when I was swimming I liked to go. When I was in, when we come to Blackpool [cough] and I went swimming there and I read after in the paper about it: the highest thing in Blackpool was thirty three feet. And we had this, me and my mate, chat up these two girls so we took them to the swimming. I was swimming, I was diving, was like and one, two and the top one.
Int: The highest board, yeah.
LG: Yes, and on the top one there was these two English lads [groan] their nerves, and me and my mate, was in the middle so, my mate said to me, look there, there, so I went off there, I stand there, look, and the fellow there, when they was diving, they used to whistle so that nobody would come so near. I just wanted for that, so I did come down but my legs went over a bit and the flume was. After I went again, few times, but I read it was thirty three feet up. But I used to like diving. Blackpool [beep] give me lot of memories, know that fun. I liked Blackpool, and when I got married and that, I used to take the children wife to Blackpool. [Laugh]
Int: When you were at Blackpool, I read somewhere that quite a lot of the, because it was the Polish Depot, where everybody started, that quite a lot of people were accommodated not in a big camp, but in some of the guest houses.
LG: It was, the guest house.
Int: Do you remember the name of the street or the house number you were at?
LG: I forgot it! I knew them, the street, but I think was one, Parliament, something like that? But er, I forgot now, the names. I knew I had.
Int: But it was a good time in Blackpool. You enjoyed your time in Blackpool.
LG: I was about two months there, you know, so.
Int: Was that during the summer or the winter? Can you remember what time of year it was?
LG: That was April I come, about June, April, June.
Int: Spring and early summer, that was probably a nice time to go to Blackpool. Yes.
LG: A lot of people used to come and that, even in war time, but that was the most, lot of Poles was there and Americans, I know.
Int: Do you still have a lot of contact, obviously we visited you before Christmas at the Polish church and the Polish club that’s next to it, do you have many other friends from, Polish friends that were in the RAF that are still with us today?
LG: Well I had best friend of mine who went to Australia and I lost his contact. But then I had friend Chicago, he died. He was a bit, couple years, well, about five years older than me and then, er, I had one in, he was in three hundred club, so he was a air gunner, on top; he was from Birmingham. He died and all. And then another one, all of them right, die except me, yet, so I don’t know. But they were good friends, you know, and that. But the only one beats me, I had a, the one I show you the photographs.
Int: Yes. Your friend from the [indecipherable].
LG: He went through Italy lost his leg; he went all through Italy and the week before the war finished, he lost his leg. Anyway, so he went to New Zealand because his brother was there and you know, we used to write and I went to see him in New Zealand and that. His daughter was there, and when he died, she never even wrote and said you know, my dad died. I thought, you know, because I used to phone him [cough] once every two months or something like that, I phoned and nobody answered, so I phone again and he says this phone’s not available.
Int: Not connected any more, yeah.
LG: Another thing, and a friend of mine, we was together, he died, but his wife, she rang, the same. At least, I knew him for, since 1942 like, you know, and when I went to New Zealand, his daughter was there and everything. Well, he had a son but he died, but his daughter, at least she could write and say my dad died, you know. Never. I don’t know, those young people.
INT: It’s er yeah, it’s very kind of, does seem strange but maybe to them they’re thinking of other things. It’s very, very difficult.
LG: Then I had a friend, from Russia he come out, he lived in London, he used to have a printing firm and that, and I rang his house and his daughter answered. I said where’s your dad, oh she says, he’s at the old people’s home. So I says give me the number, so she’s given me the number, so I rang, and he coming, but I think he start having dementia, and I said do you remember me? He used to be godfather to my son, you know, that, so I used to ring him few times and then I didn’t want to disturb him, so about four months after, I rang, this fellow answered and I said can I speak to so and so, Oh he’s not there. I said why, what’s up, is he dead? She said yes, and then she never even.
Int: No. Didn’t even bother to tell you.
LG: You know, didn’t say he died. I would have gone to London to his funeral, you know what I mean. But phew, that’s how they are, youngsters, I think some of them, anyway.
Int: Sometimes. Well, thank you very, very much, unless you can think of anything else Brendan, I mean that was lovely that, I mean you’ve given a bit of an insight into your life. What we’d like to do for you is, we’ll make you a disk, put it on a disc so you can have it for your family, cause obviously in years to come it will be nice for them to see you sitting here chatting about your life as well so we’ll let you have a copy of it, and you can, for future.
LG: Would you like another drink?
Int: We’re okay for a drink, I would love to, well we’d both love to see your medals.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Lech Gierak
Description
An account of the resource
Lech Gierak was born in Poland and after the death of his father made his way to England and joined the Polish Air Force. He worked as an armourer on a number of stations and after the war moved to Stoke on Trent to become a miner. Lech talks about the way of life on an RAF station at work, and at play, as well as the treatment of Poles after the war.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:57:01 audio recording
Identifier
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SRAFIngham19410620v050001-Audio
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
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Geoff Burton
Temporal Coverage
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1940
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Poland
Middle East
England--Lincolnshire
England--Blackpool
Russia (Federation)
Russia (Federation)--Omsk
Russia (Federation)--Siberia
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
300 Squadron
303 Squadron
ground personnel
Lancaster
prisoner of war
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ingham
Spitfire
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/935/11292/ALunnLG171107.2.mp3
c8898a3fbc1d4aa984ad1a002702b5df
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/935/11292/PLunnLG1701.1.jpg
aae5ca1ca0b65d1af4c24762035c0442
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lunn, Leslie Grantham
L G Lunn
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Leslie Lunn (b. 1923, 1317021, 157825 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 127 Squadron
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lunn, LG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 7th of November 2017 and we’re in Balsall Common near Coventry talking to Squadron Leader Leslie Lunn AFC about his life and times. So, Les, what are the earliest recollections you have of life.
LL: My sister [laughs] boxing me in, in the house and looking after me. Not allowing me to move. I wasn’t allowed to move [laughs] I was very very young then. After that I don’t know. I just, I just went to school and it was we went to school at Wembley and then at Watford. Then we moved from Watford down to Plymouth and I went to a school called Warren School and didn’t learn a thing because it, it was a totally incompetent and my father and mother decided that their son was an absolute idiot. And I sat the entrance exam to Plymouth, Plymouth College and somehow or other passed and I started and I did my education in Plymouth College. Finished it off at the age, I started about the age of thirteen and I, and I got my School Certificate eventually at eighteen. And then with the bombing raids on Plymouth my parents moved out to, out into the country and we lived at Cornwood in, in Devon. And I volunteered for the RAF from there. I had a bit of a row with me mum and in a huff I went into Plymouth and volunteered. And when I came back and told my mother she wouldn’t believe me [laughs] until my call up papers came [laughs] And then I was attested in Oxford and oh, I had to wait something like oh three or four months before I was attested and then I had to go. I’d never left home and I had to get up to London to Lord’s Cricket Ground to where we were all assembling and I went up by train and eventually got to Lord’s Cricket Ground where there was hundreds of us waiting and we sat there and waited and waited and waited all day and, or for the rest of the day and eventually they never got to me. The L’s. So we were billeted out in, oh I can’t remember now, and we had to go back again and we were eventually had a medical and all that sort of stuff and I was in the Air Force. And the reason why I came to, went in the Air Force was that my father was in the First World War and he was in, he was unfortunately eighteen when the war was declared and he joined the Norfolk Regiment and was in the trenches for nearly a year and he saw these funny little biplanes flying up above him and he decided that he was better up there then down in all this mud. So he volunteered too for aircrew and he was sent to back to England and became an observer. And I can’t, and he was posted then back to Germany as an, as an observer and he flew with a captain, I don’t know his name, in and I can’t remember, I think it was 14 Squadron. It could be. I don’t. I can’t really remember. And the life expectancy was somewhere in the matter of three weeks. Possibly three months. And my father somehow survived for the rest of the war. Three years. So he was a very, very lucky man. And he met my mother in, on one of his leaves because his, his father was a master tailor in, in Norwich, Mother was a typist in in the railway or something and he met her and they were married. And after the war pop couldn’t get a job so he joined the Black and Tans.
CB: Oh.
LL: Yeah. The Black and Tans, and went to Ireland with my mother and my sister then who was a baby and they spent some time in, in Ireland. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t very pleasant. And then pop came, then when they came back father became, worked for a firm called Blundell’s. And they did a hire purchase system. And father stayed with them for the rest of his career and he became the manager of a department store in Plymouth because we moved from Watford to Plymouth and and he retired from, from that particular job. And then during the Second World War he volunteered for is it AR? Not ARP. What was it?
CB: Yeah.
LL: Was it ARP?
CB: Yes. Yeah.
LL: And he had a uniform and there’s a photograph of us somewhere with me in my officer’s uniform and pop in his. And, and the reason why I suppose I joined the, I wanted to be a pilot and join the RAF was because of my father’s background really. Am I nattering too much?
CB: That’s really good. Keep going.
LL: Oh, I see [laughs] where do I go from there?
CB: Well, you were at ACRC so —
LL: Oh yes. I I volunteered and, and I was at ACRC. That’s right. ACRC. That’s right. ACRC. And from there I was sent to Paignton to do my ITW and we lived in a [tin barny] hotel on the front and I made friends. Three chaps. And we all four of us got together and eventually the postings came through and my three friends were posted to, on one of the drafts to America to do their pilot training. And I was left out. And I tried to get on the same tour but they said that I would be on the next one. So anyway I continued doing my training at the ITW and then I was posted to America and we had to go up to Manchester and had to be called from Manchester which was a reception area. We went by, up to Liverpool. I think it was Liverpool where we boarded a troopship called the Montcalm and I had the most awful journey to America, or Canada. It was, it was our troopship plus another troop ship and the weather got worse and worse and worse and we were escorted by those American, ex-American destroyers. Four funnel jobs.
CB: Yeah.
LL: Nasty old things. Anyway, the weather got so bad they turned back to England and left us and we had to go right up towards the Arctic Circle to avoid U-boats. And we landed eventually in Halifax. And the life on that boat was absolutely awful. I was eighteen, never left home and I had to suffer these. Everybody was being sick and the ship was riddled with cockroaches. All the food that was just dished out, we had to go down to the galley and collect it had cockroaches in it. You sliced the bread and you sliced through a cockroach. And consequently I hardly ate anything for the two weeks I think it was. Goodness knows how long I took to get to Canada. But we landed at Halifax eventually and at, I went to Moncton, Moncton, Canada. Where we were stayed for I don’t know what we did there but then we boarded a train and went all the way down to Montgomery in Georgia. Or was it —
CB: Alabama.
LL: Montgomery. That’s right. Montgomery, Georgia. And that was quite an adventurous journey. We stopped at New York and we had a, a walk around Grand Central Station, and oh it was, to be in America and all the food was was absolutely fantastic. And I started, and then we did what they called a conversion to American system of marching and I was, oh yes. I’ll go back. I actually was, my number of the course was number 42H. So ‘42 being the year and H was my graduation month I think. And anyway, we did drill and lectures and things like that. Then I was posted down to Arcadia, Florida where I started my primary training on Stearmans. And my instructor was Mr Ryan and he was a civilian and he had three or was it four students. And I was the only one to survive. The others didn’t make it. And I did sixty hours there. Then I went to Gunter Field, Montgomery, where I did my basic training on [pause] oh dear, Vultee13s I think they were called. Fixed undercarriage and wound the flaps down, that’s right [laughs] So anyway another, did another sixty hours there and then from there I went to [pause] Carlstrom? No. I can’t remember the name of the place. Was it Carlstrom Field? No. I did my advanced training anyway on Harvards and I graduated in August. I think it was August. It could have been early September but I’ve got it in my logbook anyway.
CB: Ok.
LL: And they’re on the table there. And somehow I became a natural pilot. On the advanced we went down to an airfield, Eglin Field in Florida and did air gunnery. That’s right. And I did quite well and that billed me in good stead because eventually when we got back to England and we were at Bournemouth we were all interviewed and they were building up Bomber Command all, all the time. And I should think out of the hundreds that were there the majority of them were pushed into Bomber Command. But at my interview I said I wanted Spitfires and I wanted Fighter Command. And fortunately I had a good gunnery score and that, on my records and I was posted to 129 Squadron on Spitfires. Much to my relief. And to fly a Spitfire was absolutely marvellous. And I was still, let me see at the end of the year oh, I had, gosh [pause] I left a bit. I’m sorry. I was posted to an OCU. That’s right. From Bournemouth I was posted to Grangemouth. Grangemouth in Scotland where I did my OCU and, on Spitfires. And from there I was posted to 129 Squadron at, it was at [pause] oh dear. Oh dear. Carlton? That was Carlstrom Field, I think. It was one of these wartime strips with Somerfield tracking and we lived in — no. I’m I’m sorry. Ignore that. Ignore that. Ignore that. Ignore that. That was sometime later. Ignore that. That’s right. I went to, I joined 129 Squadron at [pause] is there an airfield near Ringwood? Oh I can’t. I can’t remember.
CB: At Hurn.
LL: It will be in my logbook anyway. And the Squadron had actually gone to Hornchurch and so my 129 Squadron didn’t, wasn’t there. So I had to wait until they came back again and then of course I started, and I started my ops from, from there. And we did [pause] I was very green of course and they looked after me, I suppose. And then we were posted from that airfield. I can’t remember the name again, to Hornchurch where I operated from. I don’t know for how long, but we were on Spitty 5s to start off with at, at the airfield I can’t remember the name of. And we then converted on to Spit 9s when we were at Hornchurch and we did fighter patrols and I was nominated as, as I was a good Number 2 I used to fly Number 2 to the station commander and also the Squadron commander. And from there we, the war, the invasion, we prepared for the invasion and we were posted down to, this is where we went to, oh dear. Why? Why can’t I think of it? It was one of these wartime airfields and it was Sommerfield tracking and we lived in tents and life was a bit rough. Unfortunately they had a system where the pilots moved to the new station and took up the aircraft and they had the ground crew of those particular aircraft. And the the airfield was run by a Polish wing and Wold, no it wasn’t Woldzinski, but anyway we had two Polish Squadrons there and we, and we joined with our Spitfires at this particular place. But we had Polish ground crew. But we got rid of our Spitfires almost immediately and we got Mustangs and our serviceability went down very badly because they didn’t understand what we were talking about and we didn’t understand what they were talking about. The ground crew. And eventually we got British ground crew and everything was a little bit more satisfactory and we did patrols. We escorted Fortresses to, into Germany. We did a lot escort work. And most of our, a lot of our, when I was on on on Spitfires we escorted American bombers in France and into Germany and yes it was all all very, very well, I can’t say exciting really. It [pause] and I’m about bouncing around a bit. Does that matter?
CB: Fine. It’s fine.
LL: I’m bouncing around a bit. So anyway. The invasion. We were at this airfield, and oh yes we with, with the Mustang of course we could stay airborne for quite a long time and we, on these escorts to in to Germany with the Fortresses we were airborne in the Mustang for three hours, three and a half hours, maybe four hours some times. And when we got back on one particular trip it had a tremendous rain storm and all our tents had been flattened. All our bedding was soaking wet. And it was a bit of a mess actually. The whole airfield. And it took quite a while to sort of get ourselves sorted out. The other thing about it was that the Squadron commander made me the imprest holder and I had to go to base accounts and collect all the money and pay the troops and the officers the money they wanted. And the trouble was there was there was nowhere to put this money. I had no safe. I had, and I and I used to go on operations with my pockets full of, full of money because I had nowhere to put them. I couldn’t leave it in the tent. So eventually I saw the Squadron commander and I said, ‘This is ridiculous, sir. I can’t, I can’t cope.’ Anyway, he agreed and they got somebody in to, an officer, ground crew officer and he took over the imprest. So if I had been shot down in Germany I would have had lots of money [laughs] Oh dear. So anyway, from there we went to [pause] we were preparing to go over to, over to France. Oh yes. The invasion. We took, we started with the, the invasion started and we didn’t actually take part in the very first day. The 6th. We were, we were on standby and we were on, and I flew supporting the invasion on the, the second day and it was amazing to see. To fly over that beach head and the, and the number of ships in the harbour there. But the Navy was very very light fingered and they invariably fired at us. And to avoid this they introduced a system where we lowered our undercarriages, circled round to prove to them that we were British and then off we went again. But they still fired at us and they invariably got at least one aeroplane which was very, very upsetting. But the fact was that we were then doing ground, ground support and we were supporting the troops in, against the German tanks and doing a lot of ground work and we lost a lot of pilots through ground fire. And I’ve got all the names in my logbook if you want it. And then we were, the Doodlebugs started and we were diverted from the invasion to shoot down Doodlebugs. And we went to Dungeness, a little airfield in Dungeness with our Mustangs and we were given new Mustangs with a higher boost so that we had more speed to catch these Doodlebugs. And I met, I got one which blew up in front of me and bits of metal through all, from the doodlebug sort of passed over me and blackened all my windscreen. And I got two possibles. So, so I had a little bit of a success there. And then from there I was tour-ex and I was posted to Ingham on fighter affil duties. Can we stop there?
CB: We will.
[recording paused]
LL: Then we had the undercarriage down and circled around them. And that’s the whole Squadron you know, sort of doing it. They still fired at us. But it was the actual invasion supporting the troops and doing ground, ground attack work was more or less new to us. We did what they called from Hornchurch and, and, and the other airfields we used to do what they called ramrods.
CB: Yes.
LL: That was low level stuff and we sorted out trains and German cars and things like that. Interdiction I think they called it, didn’t they?
CB: Yeah.
LL: Keep on whirring. So anyway, Ingham.
CB: Just quickly, what was the armament you had on the Mustang?
LL: Sorry?
CB: What was the armament on the Mustang?
LL: .5s, .5s.
CB: Right.
LL: .5s.
CB: But on the Spitfire you had twenty millimetre cannon.
LL: We had. The early ones of course they had eight 303s and then we got two cannons and two 303s on each wing. No. One cannon and one, that’s right and also a couple of 303s and then they dispensed with the 303s altogether and we had two cannons per wing.
CB: How did you feel about that?
LL: Oh, jolly good. Jolly good. For ground attack work they were marvellous. And on these what they called ramrods.
CB: Just quickly on the V-1 Doodlebug.
LL: Yeah.
CB: So what was the technique that you were trained to pursue with them?
LL: Ah. Well they came in at around about two thousand feet, the Doodlebugs. And we had a sea patrol which was, and then and, and we, if you picked and we stayed at about three or four thousand feet above and so when we saw them we used to have to dive on them and with that extra speed we managed to keep up with them. And we then chased them and fired at them or we hadn’t, if we had missed them, they were still pressing on we had to stop because there was a gunnery belt, anti-aircraft belt and we had to stop and turn back otherwise we would have been fired at. And the gunners took over the Doodlebug from us.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And had a go at it. So it ran a pretty dicey journey.
CB: Sure.
LL: The old V-1s, really. So it, oh yes and one of one of the gunners when we were on this airfield the gunners actually shot, shot one down and winged it and it didn’t blow up. It actually sort of tipped over and headed for the ground and it came straight for us. And we scattered and, and, and it landed in the field just behind the airfield. And when I, we sort of came, I came to I was under the petrol bowser [laughs] Can you imagine it? I was under the bloody petrol bowser. Stupid thing. So, anyway it was from, it was quite exciting chasing the old Doodlebugs.
CB: The one you hit —
LL: Because they didn’t fire back at me you see [laughs]
CB: No. But what was the recommended technique for the approach?
LL: To dive down on them from height to get the speed.
CB: So was it a passing shot or did you actually dive and then come in from behind?
LL: Oh yes. Always from behind. You couldn’t get a deflection shot on them.
CB: Right.
LL: You had to fire on them from behind.
CB: So the one that you got. The kill you did. It blew up. You got a ton of explosive at the front going up.
LL: I must have stopped the engine which then slowed it down and I hadn’t realised that and of course I then closed in rather rapidly and then of course my cannon fire actually exploded it.
CB: Right.
LL: And it, and somebody else did this and they finished up with bits of the Doodlebug stuck in their wings.
CB: Yes. And they were, people were brought down by it as well.
LL: That’s right.
CB: So now you’ve gone through the blackness and your windscreen you said was covered in black. So what did you do then? You can’t lean out and wipe the windscreen.
LL: Somehow, somehow you can’t lean forward and clean the windscreen [laughs] somehow by looking out sideways I managed to get back and land it. Oh, I had engine failure on take-off at that airfield too.
CB: This is at Dungeness.
LL: Yeah. We had Packard Merlin engines and they suffered from internal coolant leaks. And I was leading a section off from there and all of a sudden I started losing power and all this smoke came out of the exhaust. And I had selected undercarriage up because I’d just left the ground and the, and that was it. The engine stopped and I finished up at the ditch at the end of the airfield. And my number two sort of pressed on, fortunately.
CB: So, in those circumstances the number two leads the flight.
LL: No. He had no other opportunity. He had to carry on actually. I don’t know what happened. Whether he landed again or not I can’t remember. I was more concerned about getting out the aircraft [laughs]
CB: So you said there were two probables. How did that occur?
LL: They, they were winged but they, but they and they went down, started going down and then they went into cloud and, and that was it. They, for some reason or other they didn’t give the, they didn’t award me them. They just gave me probables.
CB: Because they couldn’t link it directly to you. Is that it?
LL: They couldn’t link it directly to me. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. How did you feel about that?
LL: Well, had to accept it didn’t I?
CB: Not as sick as a parrot.
LL: So anyway where did we get to?
CB: Right. So you then went to Ingham.
LL: Ingham.
CB: In Lincolnshire.
LL: Oh yes, where we had Hurricanes and Spitfires. And I’d never done this sort of thing before and of course the daylight fighter affil was, was relatively easy. In fact, it was enjoyable. Really enjoyable doing quarter attacks on, and we used to meet the bomber above his airfield and then we used to, off we used to go and do the quarter attacks.
CB: This is the fighter affiliation.
LL: Fighter affil, yeah. And, and then of course we, I had to do it at night. Well, at night time I wasn’t very, I didn’t like night flying very much and, but I had to get used to it. And again we had to take off at night, find the bomber because he always used to be above the airfield and then he used to lead us off. Off somewhere. And then we used to do our quarter attacks at night time. We had infrared lights or lamps under each wing tip on the Spitfires and the Hurricanes so that the gunner can photograph us at night time and assess their abilities. And it was their responsibility to bring us back to base because we had no idea where we were going or where we were. And we, the trouble was that we daren’t lose the bomber because we had no navigation systems and we had no radio systems to get home. And it was their, the bombers responsibility to bring us back home again and when it was a lot of cloud around the bomber used to descend into cloud and we had to formate on this bomber in cloud. And the only ident, the only visual, visual of the bomber was the downward ident light. And you had to sort of fly more or less underneath it to keep in touch with it. And it was quite, quite frightening actually. And you daren’t lost it because you had, you had no idea when you broke, if you eventually broke cloud on your own where you were and there was no identification on the ground and and you were really were sort of lost in a way. But fortunately I managed to hang on to the bombers and I never had that, that situation at all. But it was. And then from Ingham we were, they decided that we would have to go to the bomber stations themselves and we went to Lindholme. The whole unit went up to Lindholme where we operated on fighter affil there. And then we saw Bomber Command operating at its, at its full [pause] I remember one night. Would they have had Halifaxes or Lancasters? I think. I can’t remember. But they took, one aircraft took off and crashed immediately after take-off and then the next aircraft took off and that did exactly the same thing. And instead of selecting undercarriage up the chappie must have, they think who operated the flaps must have brought the flaps up and the aircraft must have stalled and gone straight in. But it was a dreadful mess. It was something that sort of stuck in my mind. Anyway, one of the pilots who was posted on to Typhoons and he didn’t want to go and I wanted to get away from Bomber Command at the time. So I wanted to get back into Fighter Command so I volunteered to take his posting and I was accepted and I went down to Aston Down and converted on to Typhoons. And when I was there the war ended. And I had managed to scrounge trips on Tempests instead of Typhoons. I got on to Tempests which was more of a faster and better aircraft and from there I was declared redundant. And I went home on leave and I was recalled and when I got back I found that they wanted pilots on 222 Squadron in Germany flying Tempests and I was nominated. And I was, I think I said, ‘Thank goodness for that,’ and off I went to Germany to, oh dear what was the name of the damned airfield? Anyway, I joined 222 Squadron and on Tempests. And we, we just did ordinary training and flying and, and then we were sent back to England. I was only on, in Germany for a short period like three or four months and the Squadron was brought home and we were converted onto Meteors. And we went to Molesworth and we converted on to Meteors and they were Meteor 1s. And of course they were twin-engine and we, I had never flown twin engines before. None of the pilots had. And we were given dual in an Oxford. And this, the asymmetric training they gave us was the instructor, throttle back one engine and he said, ‘You push the rudder in the opposite side to keep it straight. Ok? And if you throttle back the other one you push the other rudder. Ok?’ And he said, ‘Now, you do it.’ And I do it. And then we went in and landed. And that was my asymmetric training [laughs] They didn’t show no, no approaches or anything and and consequently we had an awful lot of Meteor crashes because the, the engine, the fuel for some unearthly reason had, when they manufactured was getting water into it and the engines were, were, tended to stop. And unfortunately a lot of pilots had to do asymmetric landings and they had very little training and consequently they, they killed themselves approaching on one engine and it, it was, it was, it was amazing. The Meteor had a very, very high accident rate [pause] What did I do from there? Oh, yes. I can’t remember, [unclear] no. Meteors. Where did I operate? We went to Exeter. That’s right. Exeter, on Meteors. And of course that was quite close to my home which was in Plymouth. And I used to sort of nip home over the weekends quite easily. And I had a car then so I managed to get home quite easily. And then I was posted from 222 Squadron to 1 Squadron to convert them on to Meteors. They had Spitfire 21s. And I had the opportunity to fly Spitfire 21s and 22s with, some of them with contra rotating props so you went from Meteors to Spitfires again. And the Squadron commander brought me in one day and said, ‘How would you like to be posted overseas?’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ He said, ‘You’re a bachelor and they want pilots in Italy, and how about it?’ So I said, ‘Oh, ok.’ And consequently I was posted to Italy. We went by train all the way across the continent on this military train and it took two days to get to Northern Italy. And it was Treviso. Treviso in Northern Italy. That’s right. Where we flew Mustangs. So, I’ve gone from jets back to piston engines. And we, and of course they were disbanding Squadrons left right and centre at the time and our Squadron was disbanded and I was sent up to a transit camp in Austria where we spent days doing nothing and waiting for a posting. And I assumed I was being posted home again but I was posted to the Middle East. And I [pause] and I eventually after a lot of journeys and trains and aircraft I managed to get via Malta to the Canal Zone, Egypt, where we lived in tents. And from there I was posted to Cyprus on to 213 Squadron. And I, and they were so short of pilots there was the Squadron commander, one flight commander and two pilots. That totalled the Squadron. And I turned up plus a couple of others and we sort of expanded the Squadron a bit. And then they were gradually, Cranwell had started up again and we eventually got some Cranwell students. Pilots posted in and we spent about nearly a year in good old Cyprus. We had a marvellous time in Cyprus. And then I was posted from there. We were sent to Khartoum. And that’s the first time I really saw the Sahara Desert and I was amazed at the extent of that desert. It was fantastic. And flying sort of single engine aircraft over this desert is, is quite, quite something really. And anyway we arrived at at Khartoum and we spent nearly a year there. And we were, from Khartoum we had, yes that’s right it was hot and awful and they had what they called an international front. A weather front called a haboub. And this had, it was high winds and it picked up the sand and it had rain and this black cloud was extended, used to move right across the ocean northwards and and sand was blown everywhere and it was, and it was the first time we’d seen rain. And it was quite, it turned the sand into sort of mud and what amazed me was that after two or three days of this sort of haboub and rain the, if you looked horizontally across the sand you could see it turning green. Grass was actually growing again in the sand. And then of course it didn’t last. It was then of course the heat and the sun killed it off again but that is there, and what amazed me was that it could actually grow and if you could cultivate it I suppose you could have, you know turn the desert into the grass. But anyway, we from Khartoum we were sent down to Mogadishu in —
CB: Somalia.
LL: Somalia. Where we lived very very primitively. It was a dreadful thing. The only toilet was a hole in the ground with a big trench in the ground with holes in it and you sort of had to sit over the hole. We had an air liaison officer, a Claude [Histead?] his name was and he was, he stayed with the Squadron all the way from Cyprus. And he stayed with us for ages. Anyway, he decided that he was, and of course there was a lot of flies over this thing and he decided that he was going to do something about it. So he got some petrol and poured it down into this hole, there were various holes and threw a match in and the whole thing went up in smoke including the [unclear] so it was left a dirty big hole and no small holes for us to sit in, over [laughs] But he got rid of the flies. Anyway, the AOC came down to see us I can remember and, and we thought we’d give him a decent lunch so I went into Mogadishu and I bought these chickens and gave them to the chef or the cook and we, he cooked them up and they served them. And boy those chickens must have been a hundred years old I think because they were so tough that we couldn’t even get a knife into them. And so that was the special dinner for the AOC was a complete washout and we finished up eating corned beef and what was it? What are those red things? Oh, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter. Anyway, we had a makeshift corned beef lunch much to the amusement of the AOC. So we spent time there and we were actually supporting the army in the unrest in that area. And we used to fly, we had long range tanks of course and we had to locate this army unit and we used to fly over them. And our presence helped to back up their system I suppose in keeping the natives quiet because there was a lot of unrest there. And we used to put on rocket demonstrations at [unclear] and do rocket demonstrations just to show them what was in store for them if they didn’t behave themselves. You can’t do that these days. But we had quite a while at Mogadishu and then from Mogadishu we went up to Aden and stayed at Aden for a while where 8 Squadron was. And then I got up to, posted, we were posted back up to the Canal Zone. And the first thing they told me I was required at Group Headquarters for an interview for a permanent commission. And of course I hadn’t got any kit and anyway I got the batman to press my KD and whatnot. Made myself reasonably respectable and reported to Group Headquarters where they kept me waiting all morning and then when I was ushered in I can’t remember what rank they were but they started asking me questions on political situations and things. And I said ‘Excuse me, sir. I haven’t seen a paper or heard a radio now for nearly two years. I have no idea what’s happening in the world so I cannot answer your questions.’ He looked at me as if I’d gone mad and I got, I must admit I got a little bit annoyed because you know he just couldn’t believe that I didn’t know what was going on in the rest of the world. You know, with Russia and what not. And consequently I was turned down. And when I got back to base, to Shallufa, that’s right, Shallufa we were stationed at, the station commander said, ‘How did it go?’ And I said, ‘Not very well.’ And then of course it came through that I’d, I had failed and he said, ‘Right. I’ll put you up again.’ So I was put up again and before I was actually summoned for another interview I was posted home tour-ex. That was after two and a half years. And as a matter of interest my overseas allowance then was two shillings a day, 10p now. That was not exactly [laughs] that was added to my salary and of course taxed as well. Can I go back a little bit? Back to Khartoum.
CB: Do.
LL: When I was, when I was at Khartoum I was sent home on a, on a course. Some, I don’t know I’ve forgotten what course it was now but anyway I took the opportunity and I thought it was jolly good. Anyway, I eventually got back to England again and I did the course, and I had a week’s leave and when I was coming back to report back to Air Ministry I got, we had first class tickets in those days. In my compartment there was a young lady and a young man and she was wearing, and it was a hot day and she was wearing a fur coat. And I said to her, ‘Are you cold?’ She said, ‘Yes. I’ve, we’ve just come home from Khartoum.’ I said, ‘Really? So have I.’ She said, ‘Oh, my daddy is a district commissioner in, in the Sudan.’ And then I told her what I thought of district commissioners because while we were stationed at Khartoum they would have nothing to do with us. We used to go to the Sudan Club where there was a swimming pool and when we used to go to the mess they completely ignored us and wouldn’t have anything to do with us because we were service. And I told her what I thought of district commissioners and I left the compartment. Found somewhere else to sit. So I didn’t think much of her. So, anyway where did I get to?
CB: So you went back on a course.
LL: Oh yes. On a course. And, and that was on the train journey —
CB: Yeah.
LL: To London. Then I had to go up to, oh some transit camp up in Lancashire somewhere and then I got, got on a troop ship and we went, I went back to the Middle East and I rejoined the Squadron in the Canal Zone. And then of course we got involved with the Israeli Egyptian war.
CB: Yeah. 1948.
LL: Yeah,1948. And these, I can remember the Egyptian Spitfires landing at Shallufa and they were in a dreadful state these aircraft, these aircraft. There were panels missing off them and they were, oh dreadful looking aircraft. They were completely and utterly neglected. Anyway, the highlight then that had happened was that 208 Squadron had red nosed Spitfires and I can’t remember what base they were on and four of them went missing one day. And they’d been shot down by the Israelis. And our Group Captain Anderson came over to us and while we were at Shallufa we used to do readiness. We used to do twenty fours hours on, and twenty fours off and we shared it with 6 Squadron. And we had just come off readiness and they had de-tensioned the BFMs which is the Belt Feed Mechanism. And anyway, the group captain came to see me and my Squadron commander was in, in Cairo at the time so I was looking after the Squadron. And he said, ‘Get your aircraft ready, Les and we’re going to go and find these bloody Spitfires.’ And anyway, we got airborne and 6 Squadron got airborne and we flew towards Israel and, well it wasn’t Israel in those days. It was —
CB: Palestine. Yeah.
LL: Palestine, wasn’t it? Palestine. And we saw these two Spitfires, red nosed Spitfires flying out to our left and so we assumed they were 208 Squadron and they came around and the next thing that happened is they were firing at us and they shot down my number two. We couldn’t believe it. And these bloody Israelis attacked us and shot down and killed my number two. [Tattersfield?] was his name. He’d only joined the Squadron a couple of months before. Anyway, it broke up and I somehow finished behind a Spitfire which was firing at one of my Tempests and I pressed the tit to shoot at him and of course the guns didn’t work because my BFMs had been de-tensioned. Anyway, he must have seen me. He broke up and disappeared. So I, in way saved the chap’s life in that second. When we got back to base we looked at his aircraft and there were bullet holes through the fuselage and hitting the back of the armour plating. You know, behind the seat. So he was jolly lucky. And gosh, our Group Captain Anderson was absolutely furious. He said, ‘I’m going to put rockets on these bloody aircraft. We’ll, show these bloody Israelis.’ Anyway, Group managed, somehow found out and they calmed him down and that was the end of that. But it was, it was quite a thing and it never appeared in the papers. I don’t know what would have happened if, if I had shot this bloody Spitfire down. So that was quite an excitement there.
CB: These, these Israelis were all ex-RAF pilots.
LL: Most of them. Yeah. So, anyway what had happened is that they had shot down these four pilots and fortunately all four pilots survived and they were taken prisoner. And [pause] and believe it or not I was given a book and I think it’s called, “Silent Witness,” or something like that. This is stories by RAF pilots that had not been printed or not known. And one of the stories is the, is by the pilot of one of these Spitfires that were shot down. And he recalls his adventures or what happened to him after he was shot down, and he also mentioned the fact that the Israelis actually shot down one of the Tempests. So, I had a double. It’s up, it’s up in the bedroom somewhere, this, this book.
CB: This double link for you.
LL: A double link. I was reading both sides.
CB: Yes.
LL: I found out both sides of the story. But the Israelis were not very nice at all. They were, they were, they were bombing people. They were putting wire across the road, you know and motorcyclists, despatch riders were, had been decapitated by this bloody wire. They blew up half, one of the wings of the headquarters. They, they, they got hold of some army colonel or major and imprisoned him in a tomb somewhere and eventually the services managed to find him again. They were doing all sorts of nasty things there. And they were also trying to get extra aircraft and they would bribe, we found out they would bribe us with money if we actually landed our aircraft into Israel. They would take us over. They would take us out to sea and put us in a dinghy and say [laughs] and say that we had, had engine failure over the Mediterranean and of course there was no sign of the aeroplane. But I don’t think anybody took [laughs] took that little adventure anyway. But that was a little bit of bribery on their part. So it was all very sort of what do you call it? Exciting, I suppose. Interesting.
CB: What did they do with these pilots they captured.
LL: They, they put them in prison actually. And, and I think they looked after them. They didn’t sort of torture them or anything like that. But I can’t remember how they got released. But they were released somehow or other. But I’d have to read the story again. I can’t honestly remember. So anyway, I was posted back to England and I took over a comm flight at Hawarden in north, near Chester, North Wales, where we had Ansons, Oxfords, and this AOC had a Spitfire, and we had a Harvard. And we used to fly ATC boys over the weekend and we, and we flew people from A to B as, as a communications flight. And I eventually got my permanent commission interview and I got my permanent commission there. So it was quite a long time after the war that I actually I got my commission. And the reason, and how I stayed in the Air Force was that there were at the end of the war they were offering, it was about a year after the end of the war they were getting short of pilots or something or the other and they were offering four year commissions. And I accepted the four years and I managed to get my permanent commission during that period of extended service as they called it. Extended service. From, I stayed there for, [pause] oh I don’t know whether I ought to mention it but all my, my friends used to ring me up when they were posted from A to B because they didn’t have cars in those days and I used to go across with the Proctor and pick them up and take them to their new airfield. And I used to charge them ten bob for the [laughs] for the pleasure of doing it. I didn’t keep it. I put it in this, in the, in the flight fund and, and at Christmas time we spent this money on a nice party for the ground crew and the pilots. It was called, “Lunn’s Airlines.” [laughs] I don’t know whether I should say that. Nobody knows that really. So, anyway from there I was posted down or sent down to Little Rissington for an interview to be an instructor. And I didn’t want to be an instructor, but they said you’re going to be an instructor. So I eventually got a posting to Little Rissington on the instructor’s course. And what we used to do there is you had dual with a, you know with a at Little Rissington a CFS instructor and then we used to fly mutual. You know, two pilots together. And believe it or not my co-pilot or confederate was an Israeli I was told and believe it or not his name was Captain Israel Stern. He had renamed himself Captain Israel Stern and I went up and saw the Squadron commander and I said, ‘I don’t want this man. I won’t fly with him,’ and I told him a bit of the story and he said ok and he gave me, they gave me somebody else. But it was amazing that I should be given this bloody man because I must admit I hated them. Anyway, I graduated funnily enough with a B1 instead of a B2 and I was sent up to [pause] outside of York. What was the name of the blasted airfield?
CB: Elvington?
LL: Who?
CB: Elvington.
LL: Elvington. No. No. It’s a prison now. Full Sutton. Full Sutton.
CB: Yeah.
LL: Full Sutton, and of course the Korean War had started.
CB: Yes. 1950.
LL: Yeah. It was the Korean War and they were calling up ex-RAF pilots back into the RAF and we, and Molesworth was opened up again. And it was a disused airfield and there were no facilities there. There were nissen huts and I had half a nissen hut, a bed and a wardrobe I think, or a cupboard or something to put my clothes in. And we all ate in the airmen’s one mess because there was no officer’s mess or sergeant’s mess or officer’s mess. So we all ate together. And we had to set to and open up this airfield and prepare to get aircraft. And we got Spitfires believe it or not, and Vampires and Meteors. And we did a conversion course of these pilots who were being called up. It was, it was quite a lot of, in fact a graduated CFS instructor spent a lot of his time initially in shuffling manure out of the air traffic control building [laughs] so they could get that place, the air traffic control building sort of back into operation again. It was a bit of a mess actually. But after a lot a lot of work we got this airfield going again and I became a flight commander there. And it was a lot of work. We used to start at 6 o’clock in the morning and we lived in nissen huts. And the officer’s mess was a nissen hut and [pause] oh yeah. We, we worked jolly hard actually and we worked weekends as well. And then from there after I can’t remember how long I was at Full Sutton but I spent a lot of time, and of course I did a lot of asymmetric flying there because we had to teach these students or ex-pilots asymmetric. And they used to shut down an engine in the air and then do a single engine landing. And then so many aircraft had accidents they decided it was rather silly to shut down the engine so we just throttled it back.
CB: This was on the Meteors.
LL: On the Meteors, yeah. And anyway, I was summoned to the station commander’s office one day and he said there was an air commodore, I think he’s one, he said, ‘He’s never flown in a jet and,’ and he said, ‘I want you to take him up on a trip.’ So I said, ‘Ok. Fair enough, sir.’ So we took him out to the aircraft and I briefed him and whatnot and set him in and we took off and I got, had an engine failure just as I left the ground. There was a bang and bingo the engine stopped and by God, I really had to work hard to keep that aircraft in the air. Anyway, we managed to slowly climb away and we came around and landed again. And the air commodore said, ‘Oh, asymmetric flying is easy in the Meteor isn’t it?’ [laughs] Little did he know that I was struggling. That I struggled. Anyway, that was one incident anyway. It was a very primitive airfield. Everything was very primitive and it’s now, it’s now an open prison. Full Sutton is. And what happened then? Oh yes. I was posted from there as flying wing adjutant down at CFS where I met Diana Broadhurst, she was a WAAF officer there.
CB: So, Harry’s daughter.
LL: And, and she used to come down to the office every other day and see me. And she said, ‘Look, Les, the WAAFs in the tower haven’t got a toilet. Can you organise a toilet for them?’ And I said, ‘Well, there’s nowhere in the air traffic building that we can put a lady’s toilet.’ Anyway, she used to pop down practically every other day on this subject and so we got to know each other quite well, and I married her [laughs] And she said, ‘You’ll have to ask my dad.’ And I said, ‘Oh.’ And he was CnC Bomber Command at the time. And so I had to go up with Diana to High Wycombe and I stayed with the CnC that weekend and I asked permission to, to marry his daughter. I can’t remember whether he said yes or no but he, the one thing he did say. That she was extremely loyal, and Diana [excuse me]
CB: It’s alright.
Other: It’s alright.
[pause]
CB: We’ll stop there just for a mo.
[recording paused]
LL: Yes. Oh, yes. We we got married at High Wycombe and her father Harry, Sir Harry went on this, the Vulcan was just coming in to service and they had three Vulcan 1s which they were, which they used for trials work and one of them they took out to the Middle East and then out to the Far East and Diana’s father went as co-pilot to Podge Howard, who was the captain. And they went all the way out to Australia and New Zealand and they came back again and they landed at, in North Africa somewhere. And they were scheduled to land at London Airport and the weather at London Airport was awful and they, and it was in the early days of London Airport and Broady, as they used to call him didn’t want to land at London Airport. And he said, ‘Waddington is open and clear. We’ll go up to Waddington.’ But they said, ‘The reception committee is at London Airport. You’ll have to land at London Airport.’ And Podge Howard said, ‘Ok. We’ll have one go and if we can’t make it we’ll divert to, up to Waddington.’ And you know the consequences, don’t you?
CB: Yeah. So do you want to just describe that?
LL: Anyway, what had happened is they were doing a talk down and of course they were doing a GCA.
CB: Yeah. Ground Control Approach.
LL: And you’re azimuth and elevation and you’re on the glide path or below the glide and you’re left or you’re right and you adjust to what you’re being told and the Vulcan 1 had its pitot head heaters, pitot head on the wing tips. So when you came in. we didn’t have flaps so when you were coming in on the approach the aircraft was at quite a high angle.
CB: Yes.
LL: And consequently you got disturbances in the pitot head which produced a two hundred foot error in the altimeter. Now, if you are being talked down it doesn’t matter what the altimeter is showing. You’re either on the glide path or you’re not on the glide path. The altimeter can read anything. If you are actually doing a talk down and they say you should now be passing through eight hundred feet you had to have a thousand feet on your altimeter to be at eight hundred feet.
CB: Yeah.
LL: So you had to add this two hundred feet on.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And they blamed this error into the actual cause of the accident. The trouble was the controller had not guided a jet aircraft in on a GCA before. It was his first attempt. And consequently it was much faster than the piston engine aircraft.
CB: Yeah. On his approach.
LL: On the approach. And they broke cloud and they were very low. And Broady looked up and the runway was at this angle instead of down there. Then they hit the ground and broke the undercarriage off or one of them and if, if Podge Howard had carried on and landed he would have slid and everybody would have been alright. But he attempted to overshoot. Anyway, he opened up to overshoot and somehow or other the undercarriage had hit the underside of the aircraft and knocked all the generators off, and the control systems were defunct. They wouldn’t work and the aircraft started to climb and roll. And Podge Howard said, ‘I’m going,’ and pulled his blind and shot out and Broady eventually yelled to the crew, the rear crew, ‘For God’s sake get out,’ and he was at an angle. You know, ninety degrees, and he operated his ejector seat and went out and landed and broke his, his feet or his, and his leg I think. Something to do with his feet anyway because he hit the ground rather hard. And of course his wife and other daughter Claire Broadhurst were in the tower waiting for him. And they have a controller at the side of the runway in the cabin and they came out and found Broady and they brought him into, into the cabin until they could get transport and take him in because he couldn’t walk. And of course they came out all in fire engines and what not and they thought that Broady had been killed because they couldn’t find him. And so for a while his wife thought she was a widow. But anyway they got transport out and they got Broady and they finished up in that military hospital. I forget where it was. And it was, and of course we’d only been married, what a couple of weeks and we were living in Peterborough and I was posted to 63 Squadron on Canberras and after the honeymoon, two weeks honeymoon I reported to, and of course to the Squadron and as I walked into the officer’s mess the Squadron Commander Wingco Charles was it, and his navigator met me and said, the first thing they said was, ‘Your father in law has crashed at London Airport.’ And I though God, I must get in touch with Diana. Anyway, I managed to get a hold of Diana but she had already been told by someone that her father was ok. But that was the beginning of our marriage really. Anyhow, I was on Canberras there and we lived in Peterborough and —
CB: Where were you stationed?
LL: At Upwood.
CB: Right.
LL: Oh, sorry. Didn’t I say? No, I was stationed at Upwood on Canberras. And then of course the, that Canal Zone fiasco.
CB: 1957.
LL: Nineteen, was that ’57? Occurred. And I think Broady must have, didn’t send 63 Squadron out. They sent, they sent the other Squadron because he thought it would be a bit unkind to send his son in law out after [laughs] I think. I’m only suppositioning this. And, and but he didn’t send me, my Squadron out. So anyway we were, I flew with my, the two navigators and one was the Squadron commander and he had asked for a mature pilot. And of course I flew these Canberras and it was, yeah we did detachments to Malta and that sort of thing. And then our daughter was born, Dorothea. And then I was posted after a while on to Vulcans and I was up at Waddington. Did the OCU and joined 617 Squadron. In the meantime we were, we had moved from Peterborough to, oh golly Moses [pause] A lovely thatched roof cottage aye, aye, aye. And that’s where Dorothea was born. Do you know I can’t remember the name of the place. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter. And I did the OCU at Waddington. Then I was posted to Scampton. And they had one Vulcan that had been delivered and they were building the Squadron up of course. And, and I stayed with 617 Squadron for five years I think it was.
CB: Was that a long tour or two tours?
LL: Yeah. I did two tours with them, I asked. I asked to do a second tour and I was nominated as the Bomber Command demonstration pilot and I used to go off on Battle of Britain days and demonstrate the Vulcan. And I went to Canada and I did it over there. I went to Norway, Oslo and I demonstrated it there. And I was awarded the AFC. I assume for my abilities.
CB: What was the Vulcan —
LL: Sorry?
CB: What was the Vulcan like to fly?
LL: Oh, it was bloody marvellous. It was an absolutely wonderful aircraft. It really was. When I was in, doing this demonstration at in, in Norway they were celebrating so many years of powered flight. And the Americans were there with a, B not a 52. 47? Would it be a 47?
CB: Yeah.
LL: Yeah. I think it was a 47. And at the briefing they said, ‘All the spectators are at stands at,’ so and so side of the runway, ‘Could you, can you, would it be alright if you took off on runway — ’ so and so, ‘Which is slightly downwind. You’ll have about a five knot downwind. Will that be alright?’ And the Americans thought and thought and thought and they got their calculators out and what not. And I immediately said, ‘Of course I can. No problem at all. I can get airborne in four hundred yards.’ At a guess. And these Americans wouldn’t believe me and they actually paced out four hundred yards on the runway. And I thought, ‘You’ve got to get airborne boy.’ [laughs] And on the very first demo I taxied out and opened up full bore on all those lovely Olympus engines, released the breaks and I, at the right time I hauled back on the old pole and the old Vulcan lifted off the ground and up she went. And everybody amazed at this aircraft climbing away. And I actually appeared on Norway’s television. And after I’d landed, the Americans they were shaking their heads. Bloody marvellous. Bloody marvellous. So I felt, I felt very proud of the old Vulcan then. I really did.
CB: Well, the story was that the 47 would only get off the ground because of the curvature of the earth.
LL: They had rocket assisted take off.
CB: Oh did they?
LL: Most of the time. Yeah. When, yes we used to do lone rangers from Scampton and we used to go to America. To Omaha. The base there. And I can remember taking off from there on the return journey and I took off and as I say they called up and said, ‘Call passing five.’ I said, ‘Passing ten.’ And they said, there was a pause they said, ‘Call passing fifteen.’ I said, ‘Passing twenty.’ [laughs] They couldn’t believe that I was climbing up that fast, you know.
CB: Yeah.
LL: Because they were used to the old 47s. Again I felt very proud of the old Vulcan.
CB: This was the bombing competition.
LL: And of course there was the bombing competition as well. Yes.
CB: How did you get on with that?
LL: We did, we did very well actually. We, the Squadron came, were second. We didn’t, we never actually won it. We came second actually.
CB: Was it an annual event?
LL: Yes. Oh yes. On one particular trip we were doing we had taken off, at night of course and we were pressing on and my navigator, not Godfrey Salmond. Oh lord. Lord. Lord. Isn’t it amazing how you can’t remember things some times? Anyway, he had a habit of acting rather funnily when he got on board the aircraft. And a couple of times my navigator Arthur Wheatman said that whatever his name was, ‘Is sort of banging his head on the table.’ And I said, ‘What?’ Because I can’t see, you know in a Vulcan, you know. They’re back down there.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And I can’t, I can’t see them. I could see the navigator that side but I couldn’t see down there. And he said, ‘Oh, he’s ok now.’ Anyway, on this bombing competition we were on, on doing the navigation leg and Arthur called on the intercom and said, oh God, I wish I could remember his name, I have to look in my logbook, ‘He’s banging his head on the table again.’ And I said, ‘What do you mean? And he said, ‘He’s looking funny and he’s gone white and he’s banging his head on the table.’ And I thought, well I said, ‘Keep me informed.’ And after about five minutes he said, ‘He doesn’t look too good, skipper.’ So I said, ‘Ok I’ll have to cancel, and I’ll call base and return.’ Anyway, I cancelled the thing, called base and, and got back to Scampton and I asked for an ambulance to pick him up and they hauled him off into the sick quarters. And I went to see him later on and he was sitting up there perky as anything. Anyway, that was the end of him. We couldn’t take him anymore. I got a new AEO called Godfrey Salmond. Why can I remember his name and can’t remember the other chap? And so I got a new, a new AEO. And anyway they got special permission for me to do the, our trip again.
CB: Right.
LL: Normally if you return its part of the exercise. You’ve failed.
CB: Yeah.
LL: But because of the situation they allowed me then to do my portion of it again for 617 Squadron and we got, we were second.
CB: Was he the nav plotter or the nav radar?
LL: Who?
CB: The one who had the problem.
LL: Oh, the AEO.
CB: Oh, he was the AEO.
LL: Yes. I’m sorry. Didn’t I say?
CB: The air electronics officer.
LL: I didn’t say AEO.
CB: Yeah.
LL: That’s right. No. I had, we had a good crew. I had a good crew. And the wives got on well together. And, and Harry, our son was born at Scampton. And Harry is, now lives in Australia. He emigrated about ten years ago to Australia [pause] Oh, when Diana died he immediately came home. Both of them actually, and they looked after me.
CB: We’ll just pause there again.
[recording paused]
CB: Now, you spent your formative years you might say in the war on fighters. And then you transferred eventually to the Bomber Command force but particularly into Vulcans. I just wonder whether as there were some people who had flown Lancasters or Halifaxes or Stirlings in the war whether there was any link in their minds with the more modern arrangement with the V force.
LL: It never, I don’t think it ever occurred to them. It certainly didn’t come up in conversation anyway. It, they like Tommy Thompson he was one of the pilots on our Squadron who was a wartime bomber. And he used to, he did refer occasionally to incidents during the war but he was very, very remisent about it. He didn’t. Unless you particularly asked him he would never introduce the subject. All I know is that Tommy, we used to do these lone rangers and they bought, and he he went out to, I think it was [pause] I forget. It was out to Butterworth, that’s right. In Malaya. And they staged back and they got to North Africa and at the time they said that we should only do one stage a day. And anyway things were getting a bit tight for them so they decided to, when instead do two stages to get home. And they got airborne from North Africa and, and headed home. And the got airborne from North Africa and headed home. And when they got back to Scampton the Group headquarters summoned him up and said, ‘Why did you do two stages instead of one when it’s against orders.’ And anyway, anyway he, I think somebody some high ranking officer was asking him and he said, I know, ‘If you can’t trust me at this stage, I’ve flown in Bomber Command during the war, I’ve flown Lancasters, Lincolns, Canberras and now on this and I have an impeccable record. If you can’t trust my judgement now I’m leaving the Air Force.’ And he turned around and walked out and resigned his commission.
CB: Did he really?
LL: And, and he finished up by going out to Australia. And he took a Land Rover and drove all the way out to Australia [laughs] with his family. That was one incident. That’s all I can think of.
CB: Did, did many people in your experience in the RAF after the war discuss their experiences during the war of any type?
LL: Well, most of the pilots on my Squadron were, weren’t in the war. You know, like in 213 Squadron there were no — they were all ex-Cranwell cadets or pilots that graduated after the war and got commissions and things like that. No. I don’t think so.
CB: Going fast forward again then to the Vulcan. It was an extremely manoeuvrable aeroplane. Did you feel any link between your fighter days and flying the Vulcan?
LL: Well, when I was doing the demonstrations, yes [laughs] In fact I’ve got a book down there and didn’t even bother to put my name to it. I was referred to as the “Star of the Air Show.”
CB: And what did you do there?
LL: I did my demonstration. And we had rapid starter on the old, on the Vulcan and and it was, we had an electrical and then they had air pressure and they made it a rapid start on all four engines. And I had my crew chief to make me a plunger thing which I could press down on the starter buttons and get all four to go down together. And I taxied out at, at, in Paris and, and stopped the engines at the beginning of the runway and then I called for take-off. Or they told me it was ok to take off and I pressed the old buttons, this thing down and I took off and consequently again got the aircraft airborne you know very early and I had a minimal amount of fuel and I climbed up and got almost, and then I practically rolled her and in fact they said I did a half roll and then I carried on with my demonstration. And I was referred to as the star. “Star of the Paris Air Show.”
CB: Where was that? That was at the the [unclear] Show was it?
LL: That was —
CB: Orly.
LL: I can’t remember the name of the airfield in Paris we went to. Anyway, my crew were all married of course and and the wives came out and joined us. In fact, Diana came out with Stuart Macgregor. I think his name was Stuart McGregor and he was Broady’s AD, not ADC. He was something to do with, he was a Squadron leader anyway. He actually had, flew Diana out in one of the Bomber Command communication flight aircraft into, into and she joined me at the hotel in, in Paris.
CB: So in your demonstrations did you ever roll the Vulcan? Or at any time?
LL: No [laughs] I wanted to but I thought it would be a little bit too far-fetched in a way. I half rolled it but I never fully rolled it.
CB: So —
LL: So, of course my crew in the back were sitting there being thrown around.
CB: So, technically a half roll is being inverted is it?
LL: That’s right. Yes.
CB: Yes. And then taking it back.
LL: Yeah.
CB: And pulled through and turned.
LL: That’s right. That’s what I used to do at the top of the climb.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And pull around.
CB: And then turned back the right way on the way down.
LL: That’s right.
CB: So we’ve —
LL: I used to enjoy those, it and when I went to Canada it was their, some exhibition and I was introduced to a chap, a Canadian who, he told, he was a most interesting chap. He had spent his career flying. And he started flying a solo aircraft and out in the Arctic, Northern Canada and he used to take, deliver mail to these outposts in the Arctic and he used to sleep in the aeroplane because there was nowhere else to go. And to stop the aircraft oil system solidifying because of the intense cold he used to have a small burner thing underneath it. Underneath the engine to keep the engine sort of warm. And he did that for some years and then he bought a twin engine, and he became quite a rich man and he had, he used to spend six months down in Florida. In for the summer and then fly back up to Canada again for the Canadian summer. And, and I was allowed, or the AOC who was out in, in Canada with me as part of the ground effort allowed me, said that it was ok. This chap wanted to fly in a Vulcan. And he said, ‘Ok. You can take him up.’ So, anyway, on my demonstration he sat or stood on the ladder holding on to the back of the two ejector seats while I threw the aircraft around. And when I landed he said, ‘God, that was bloody marvellous, [laughs] That was bloody marvellous.’ And when we were due to come home he had this fruit farm, or I don’t know, but he had he brought this crate of peaches and he put them, we put them in the bomb bay and when I landed at Scampton, we got all these peaches, this crate out and we distributed amongst the fruit to the, to the ground crew. But he was a marvellous chap. And, oh yes, the ex-Squadron commander of 617 Squadron. The Canadian. And he was the first to drop that huge bomb. What weight was it?
CB: Oh, the twenty two thousand pound Grand Slam.
LL: Grand Slam, he was one of the first to drop that. He was the CO and he was in Canada and he contacted me and actually took us out a couple of times. In fact, we were invited to a hotel, to a big reception and he, this ex-Squadron commander and my crew had a table and it was dry, there was no drink. And anyway this, why can’t I think of his name?
CB: What, Shannon?
LL: Sorry?
CB: Shannon?
LL: Sorry?
CB: Shannon or did he not become a CO? One of the Dambusters was Shannon. He was an American.
LL: Yeah.
CB: Who became Canadian.
LL: No. He was a Canadian.
CB: Right.
LL: Not an American.
CB: Ok.
LL: No. He was a Canadian. Oh lord. I wish I could remember his. Because he looked after us and in fact I think he was invited and he in fact invited myself and my crew to this reception. And they had all these dignitaries on a top table and all these other small tables around in this big hotel. And anyway, anyway this ex-Squadron commander called a waiter over and said, ‘I want some drinks.’ And he said, ‘I’m sorry, sir.’ He said, ‘Get me some drinks.’ Anyway, we had wine with our dinner. And, and anyway. Oh dear, my navigator. He was —
LL: Right. We’ll just stop for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So you all got your wine.
LL: We all got our wine. Anyway —
CB: Yeah.
LL: That naughty navigator or ours went around collecting napkins.
CB: Oh yes.
LL: And he tied them all up together, you know, into a great big — and he crawled to the next table and said, ‘Pass it on.’ You see. And this long stream of napkins headed its way up towards the top table. And I thought, oh God. Anyway, it started, it got to the top table and started to go across and then it stopped before it got to the dignitaries and of course our AOC was on the top table as well. And he, and next, next morning the AOC came to see me. Oh, I can’t remember the name of the bloody airfield, and said I was a very naughty boy. And when I got back to Scampton my squadron commander met me and said, ‘I understand you’ve been a rather naughty boy, Les.’ [laughs] but it was a good party. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
CB: Why was it a teetotal event? Was it a religious?
LL: I don’t know. It was a teetotal event. For some reason they had it was I forget what it was all about. I don’t, I don’t think I ever did know. But anyway this ex-Squadron commander got a little bit tiddly and when he was driving, he was driving us back home he stopped and said, ‘God, I can’t drive anymore. You drive Les.’ And of course, I [laughs] I drove his car back to, to base.
CB: Vancouver was an Air Show where they very much appreciated the Vulcan.
LL: Yes. That’s on, that’s on the further side.
CB: Yes.
LL: Yeah.
CB: So this was the Atlantic side.
LL: Oh yes. That’s the thing I had not mentioned and that was that we had a reunion when I was at Coolham. That’s right. Coolham. This airfield down south. And from there we had a reunion. Afterwards, that’s right. No. I’m getting a bit mixed up. Hang on a second. Anyway, the Squadron in that area had a reunion which also celebrated the invasion [of the day] and somebody organised all this and they got hold of this lady whose father, Skip Paine was her father and he was killed in a flying accident at Coolham. And she came over from Canada and we met and we became firm friends. And Christine and Rick, he’s to do with the theatre, they come to England and they come and see me and we talk and I keep in touch with them and and they’re very very good friends. Christine and Rick. And her father, she planted a tree in memory of her father when she came over once. Can I pop and see Sarah?
CB: Please do.
LL: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: You’ve talked about the tragic accident at Heathrow.
LL: Well, we used to do target study.
CB: Yes.
LL: And we had to do so many hours every week and we used to go in to a locked secret room in the operations block and study our targets. And I always think at the back of my mind that it was never going to happen. And I think we lived with that feeling that it’s not going to happen because it’s impossible. We can’t do this sort of thing. It would be ridiculous even to start it.
CB: This is nuclear war.
LL: Yeah. A nuclear war is out. Really out of the question and I think in our minds that people will eventually sort themselves out and it will all be cancelled. And I took a Blue Steel out to Australia in the Vulcan.
CB: Right.
LL: Because that was, I don’t know, a weapon.
CB: A stand-off weapon.
LL: A stand-off weapon.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And I was hoping that we would be able to fire it but they had, they took it off our aircraft and put it, and they did it themselves. The test people down there out in the —
CB: They didn’t drop it from a V bomber at all.
LL: No. Well, I don’t know what they did with it. They must have done trials on it. They must have dropped it from something.
CB: But a Canberra wasn’t big enough.
LL: And of course the navigator had to keep the Blue Steel working all the way out and of course he had a lot of work to do.
CB: Yeah.
LL: But when we got there a car turned up and I said, and they said, I said, ‘What’s this for?’ He said, ‘It’s been ordered for you.’ And I found out that that dear father in law of mine had been in touch with somebody out in Australia and ordered this, this car for me so I could use it to get around.
CB: Fantastic.
LL: That was, that was marvellous.
CB: This is, this is Woomera isn’t it? And Woomera is the middle of ruddy nowhere.
LL: Broady was, he was a fine chap actually and it’s, and that’s his picture up there when he was a wing commander.
CB: Oh yes.
LL: And there are all his medals.
CB: Yes.
LL: Behind you there. And those medals were sold. Somebody who was doing the history of Hornchurch, a chap called Mr Smith got in touch with Diana because he knew that her father was station commander at Hornchurch at one time. And he told her that the medals were at this particular auction, on an auction and I tried to stop it and I couldn’t. I just couldn’t get anybody to talk to me. Eventually I got hold of somebody after a lot of trying and I said I wanted the medals to be withdrawn. And they said, ‘You can’t do that. We can’t do that. A family member has put them up and they’re in the catalogue and they will be sold.’ I said that, ‘They are not to be sold. They are to stay in the family.’ But no, they wouldn’t listen and they were sold. So where Broady’s medals have gone I have no idea but I think they fetched something like thirty eight thousand pounds at the auction. And where that money went to I don’t know. But Diana’s half-sister Claire she was a rather spoiled girl. She dropped us completely and after her mother died she inherited everything. Diana hardly got anything at all. And she just dropped us. And we haven’t heard from her at all for donkeys years. But Harry, actually, when he, she’s living in Spain and Harry actually managed to get in touch with her by email to inform her that Diana had died but she didn’t even try to contact me or anything. So as far as I’m concerned Claire doesn’t exist. But Diana’s other sister Jill, she lives in Herefordshire and she’s been absolutely, she was absolutely marvellous and I keep in. I still keep in touch with her. And she’s very artistic and I’m celebrating my ninety fifth birthday in January and she is doing the invitations for me.
CB: Oh excellent.
LL: And it [pause] and I’m going to have that put on the front.
CB: Oh excellent.
LL: And this is the sort of invitation.
[pause]
CB: That’s jolly good. Yeah. With your picture on the front of it. That’s really good.
LL: Yeah. That’s right.
CB: With your Meteor behind.
LL: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Is that a 1 or an 8?
LL: This is a Meteor 3.
CB: Oh, 3. Right. Just quickly you mentioned you never expected a nuclear war to happen. Did you believe in those days that you were making a substantial contribution as a deterrent?
LL: Yes. I’m pretty certain we did. I’m pretty certain we did. We did all this QRA, you know.
CB: Quick Reaction Alert.
LL: Quick Reaction. And we were also detached on to a peculiar airfield in Scotland so that if Scampton was bombed at all we would be up, you know away from it. And we did have, I had, Diana and I had discussed it and she said, ‘If anything does happen I’ll grab the kids and everything else and head for Herefordshire. If it does. If it does happen.’ So we had planned that sort of thing.
CB: Changing the topic to an earlier one which is the crew of a V bomber is five and three of the crew sit facing backwards. In the case of the Vulcan below the two pilots. Only the pilots have an ejector seat. What was the attitude of the crew to the inherent danger of such an arrangement for escape?
LL: They just, they just accepted it.
[telephone ringing]
LL: They just accepted it.
CB: Yeah.
[pause]
LL: I don’t think [pause] did we ever bale the rear crew out? Yes. I was watching the Vulcan take off once and as the nose lifted the whole nose wheel hydraulic system fell out and the nose wheel ran along the runway so he just had a stump. And I rushed back and rang air traffic and said, ‘For God’s sake get hold of that aircraft. He’s lost his nose wheel.’ And anyway they called him up and he came on around and they took and he flew low over the airfield and they said, yes, the nose wheel had disappeared. And then for some unearthly reason they sent him over to Waddington and they baled the rear crew out over Waddington. Why they didn’t do it over Scampton I don’t know. But a chap called Blackwell I think his name was, his ‘chute didn’t open properly and he was killed. But they naturally had to have the undercarriage up because the nose wheel was right behind the door. The whole structure. So if you slid down the door you hit, you would hit the the nose wheel. So therefore the undercarriage had to be retracted to bale the rear crew out.
CB: So, then what did they do? Did they do a —
LL: They, they, they had the undercarriage up, they opened the door and you had to have the speed somewhere below two hundred knots actually to —
CB: Yeah.
LL: For the door to open fully.
CB: Yes.
LL: One of the Vulcan crashes was that, on the Mark 1 and they grounded the Vulcan for a bit was that the a, that they had a single buzz bar for the generators, alternators. And one of the alternators back fired and knocked off all the other general alternators and this was on a long range to Canada.
CB: Oh.
LL: And they were over Canada when all this happened at forty thousand feet. And they always said that the batteries would operate the powered controls for ten minutes. Anyway, they had, believe it or not there was no means of resetting these alternators. So they couldn’t get them back on line again and so the aircraft was incapacitated really and it started to descend and it consequently got faster and faster and of course the co-pilot ejected and the captain didn’t. And they couldn’t get the rear crew out as far as I know.
CB: Because they couldn’t open the door.
LL: They were going too fast. And anyway, the co-pilot was, hadn’t got his Mae West on and he landed in Lake Michigan and was drowned.
CB: Jeez.
LL: And the aircraft crashed and the Vulcan was grounded. And then they split the buzz bar, so that if it happened again you’d only lose one side.
CB: Of power generation.
LL: Yeah. So that was the only time I can think of that you would want to get the rear crew out. But then of course the door wouldn’t, as it was over two hundred knots the door wouldn’t open properly. So —
CB: Now, after a bit then the nuclear deterrent was withdrawn and replaced by the Navy so low level flying was the order of the day.
LL: Yeah. It was quite exciting. Low level. But it wasn’t designed for that sort of thing. It, it didn’t absorb the, you know the disturbance or the bumps.
CB: The buffeting.
LL: It was an uncomfortable trip really. No. It’s the old Mark 2 of course we could get up to what forty thousand feet almost fifty thousand feet on the old Mark 2. It was a bloody marvellous aeroplane.
CB: Some people got over sixty.
LL: Yeah.
CB: Thousand.
LL: Yeah. I got a Canberra up to forty odd thousand feet [laughs]
CB: Just going back to your very earliest days there you are in America being taught by civilians. Are you treated as civilians yourselves in civilian clothes or was it RAF?
LL: We were in, we were the first British cadets to go in uniform after America had declared war. Before that they had to wear civvy clothes.
CB: And the instructors. Were they all —
LL: At, they had American sort of senior instructors but they had recruited civilians because they hadn’t got enough instructors with the expansion.
CB: Right.
LL: And so they employed the ordinary civil aviation instructors.
CB: And what was the general attitude of the American towards the British? The RAF.
LL: They were fine. Fine. We put up a bit of a black hole when we arrived because we arrived at Turner Field. That’s right, Turner Field on the very first day. We came down from Canada we finished at Montgomery at Turner Field and when we got off the train we all assembled, fell in and we were marched off and somebody struck up the tune, “As we go marching through Georgia.”
CB: Oh.
LL: And we all started singing, “As we go marching —” and the Americans were not very pleased [laughs] and [pause] in fact we had a mutiny there on my course. It was, they were in six months we did all the ground school and all the flying and sometimes we used to get up at 6 o’clock in the morning. Do ground school until lunchtime, flew all, flew all the afternoon and then did night flying. And then, alternatively it was flying. Get up, do flying in the morning ground school in the afternoon, night flying at night. So it was a lot of, a long, long day.
CB: So the mutiny was —
LL: I admire the Americans for their organisation. They expanded so quickly and they really, they really got cracking once they got, they declared war. They really did. Craig Field. That’s right. Craig Field. That’s where I went to. Did my advanced. Craig Field.
CB: And there you’re flying Harvards.
LL: Harvards. Yes.
CB: Or T6 Texan.
LL: Yeah. Oh, you remember I said I had these three friends at ITW.
CB: Yes.
LL: Well, all of them were killed during the war. None of them survived. I was the only one to survive.
CB: But was that on operations or were some killed in other ways?
LL: Well, one was killed on, on, in Bomber Command. Another one was on Mosquitoes and I don’t know what happened to him and the other one was on Tempests and they were off on a trip to France and he had engine failure over the Channel. And of course he tried to ditch the thing but with that great big intake in the front, you know —
CB: Yeah.
LL: It just immediately tipped up and it sank and he was killed. And in fact, I’ve got another, in that same book this chappy is talking about this particular incident of Neil. Neil was his name. Was it Neil? Anyway, that’s how I got confirmation that he [pause] so all three of them died.
CB: Yeah. You were talking about the losses in training. Were they a mixture of the instructors and the students or just the students?
LL: Well they had, we lost, again the course before me, where that would be 42 EFG F 42G they, we did a day/night cross country. We flew the, the, these were on basic training. I think it was the basic training. Anyway, we did a first leg down to Miami from from Montgomery. It would be the Vultee basic training aircraft and then they did a trip. Took off at night and flew a dog leg and back up to Gunter Field. And the Met forecast was completely and utterly wrong and they hit one of these ghastly tropical storms. And there was something like twenty odd aircraft. One aircraft managed to get back to base. We lost six pilots that night, were killed. And others force landed and survived. But that was a big blunder by the Met people. That was the course before me. And when I was at primary I think you were either born lucky or born unlucky and I certainly was born exceedingly lucky. But this chap was flying with his instructor and he hadn’t got his seat strap done up and they hit a bump and he left the cockpit and finished up sitting astride the fuselage in front of the rudder. Much to the amazement of the, of the instructor up front. But anyway the instructor managed to get the aircraft back again and landed and then the next, then a couple of days later he was testing the mags at the end of the runway, running the engine up and the engine just blew off. Just left the aircraft. Boom. And then believe it or not somebody landed on top of him and killed him. Now, that is what I call unlucky.
CB: Yeah. Extraordinary.
LL: Yeah. But the Americans were very good actually. We, we had no — the only leave we got was three days I think it was. After primary. And we registered at this military club and they were, Americans would come along and pick you up and take you off and entertain you and look after you. And two of my friends and I went to this club and these Americans [unclear] was their name, took us down to, this was in Florida, to their house and they had a private beach with cottages on it and they gave us a cottage and we lived in this cottage. The provided all the food and we had barbecues and they looked after us. And they wrote to my parents as well. So yes, they were very good actually.
CB: A very hospitable people the Americans.
LL: Very good.
CB: Right. We’ve done extremely well. Thank you very much and I think we need to have a pause because you need your lunch.
LL: [laughs] Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Did the, the turbine blades would come off at any time would they on the Meteors?
LL: Hmmn?
CB: The turbine blades you said separated.
LL: Yeah.
CB: Was that in flight as well as on the ground?
LL: Oh yes.
CB: And what was —
LL: Mostly in flight.
CB: What was the effect of that?
LL: Just a rumble really. A vibration.
CB: And then you had to shut down the engine quickly.
LL: You had to shut down the engine. Then you were faced with asymmetric which you hadn’t been trained for. That’s why you had so many fatalities.
CB: Yes.
LL: The thing is on an asymmetric, on the approach you have an approach speed and if you get low and of course as you, as you approach you’re throttling back and if you’re getting a bit low you open the throttles but you’ve got have to have sufficient rudder to offset the amount of asymmetric.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And eventually if you got too low and you got too, if you had too much power the aircraft would naturally, you’d got full rudder on but you would still divert from your heading. So you’re only faced with one thing and that is to dive and get a bit of speed up but then of course you haven’t got that height most times.
CB: Oh right.
LL: So you’re in, in a non-return situation.
CB: Was it realistic to go around again?
LL: Well, you wouldn’t be able to do because your rudder wouldn’t allow you to open up to full throttle.
CB: Right.
LL: All it would do was swing you around and eventually you’d —
CB: You’d topple it.
LL: Topple on to your back and that would be it.
CB: Right.
LL: You couldn’t go around again.
CB: Right.
LL: Because your speed was too low.
CB: Yeah, I see, right.
LL: You had an asymmetric speed of say one hundred and sixty five knots or something and you didn’t want to let it go below that.
CB: What was your touchdown speed normally?
LL: Well, as you approached the runway of course you could reduce that speed and it was the actual Meteor touchdown was something like ninety, ninety five knots.
CB: Oh was it?
LL: Something around about that.
CB: I’ve seen figures that suggest that the RAF lost four hundred and eighty pilots flying on Meteors.
LL: Yeah. And also they lost pilots because of the oxygen system. We had a couple of aircraft go in from altitude at Full Sutton and when they were doing that they couldn’t understand why. We assumed that they’d lost control and they’d gone into a spin and that was it. But in fact what had happened was when they were doing a service, a major service on one of the aircraft they had the oxygen system out and they was found that it wasn’t actually producing the oxygen that was required. There was something wrong with it. It had worn or was leaking or something like that and they checked all the other Meteors and they were all, they were faulty.
CB: Were they?
LL: And we were all flying Meteors with a faulty oxygen system [pause] And they were of course passing out from lack of oxygen at height. And then of course that was it.
CB: They wouldn’t recover.
LL: They wouldn’t recover in time to do, and they lost a lot of pilots that way.
CB: So we talked about you on Squadron in the Vulcan. And we haven’t got to the end of that.
LL: No.
CB: So, did, did you move to another Vulcan Squadron after 617?
LL: No.
CB: Or did you go to something else?
LL: I went straight from 617 to Boscombe Down.
CB: Right.
LL: And I joined the Transport Flight at Boscombe Down and I spent six years there. A most enjoyable six years.
CB: And what were you actually doing then?
LL: I was, well I was on the transport side actually.
CB: But was it experimental or were you delivering people?
LL: Well, it was experimental with the VC10 of course. And we had the Andover. And I’m not a test pilot. And the other pilots were in fact test pilots.
CB: Right.
LL: And so they were doing trials on cross wind landings and all that sort of stuff. And we did some overseas tropical trials. And what Boscombe normally do but you need a test pilot to qualify to do it?
CB: Yes.
LL: And I was not qualified. So I spent some time just flying. We had, we had a Beverley [laughs]
CB: Gosh.
LL: I took, and I took a Beverley all the way to Churchill in Northern Canada. We took [pause] we went from, from Boscombe Down to Iceland.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And then —
CB: Greenland.
LL: No. We didn’t. We were going to go to Greenland but there was a lovely low and they had, we got the navigator had found that we had if we went a little bit further south we’d have a lovely tail wind and the old Beverley was tanking along at a hundred and forty five knots. With a, you know fixed undercarriage four bloody great engines. And we went from there —
CB: It’s a flying brick.
LL: All the way to Goose Bay.
CB: Oh yeah. Labrador.
LL: Labrador. And then from Labrador we went to [pause] where was it? Near Toronto. An airfield near Toronto and then from Toronto up to Churchill. That was an amazing station. That really was.
CB: What were, what were you doing there? Delivering something?
LL: I was, I went there to collect the helicopter that was doing cold weather trials.
CB: Oh.
LL: And the helicopter was put in the back of the Beverley. And I had ground crew with me as well of course to keep us in service and, but I’ve never, of course the Aurora Borealis was in full swing when we were in Churchill. And it was amazing to see all this. And I could see icebergs in the in the gulf there. And the, and the whole station relied on this power station that provided electricity to keep the station going. And they had an emergency system that if ever that power station packed up that the Churchill itself would freeze. And consequently like the loos and all that sort of stuff would all be non-operative so they had an emergency escape. Evacuation system.
CB: Oh.
LL: But as far as I know it never happened. And they also had warnings that when the temperature was so low that they weren’t allowed to go out and most of the buildings were actually interconnected so you didn’t have to go outside.
CB: Too cold.
LL: To get to another building. And of course to get people to actually service there or work there they were, they were usually naughty boys who [laughs] who wanted to get away from it all. Like doctors. That’s what I was told anyway. But it was, it was quite an experience. And there from there, from Churchill I went all the way to the Azores and we landed. I had to refuel enroute. I forget where. Then we finished up at the Azores. And on the way to the Azores the engineer was, said, ‘Well, the revs have dropped slightly on number three,’ I think it was. And he said, ‘It’s still running ok.’ Anyway, when we landed he ran the engine up and it sort of, and there was hardly any mag drop. Or the mag drop was in limits anyway. Anyway, we took off the next day and this engine was still showing a bit funny but it was running reasonably smoothly, or smoothly and when we got back to Boscombe Down when they checked the engine and put it unserviceable they found that one of the cylinders, you know, a radial engine had actually become detached and it was actually bouncing up and down with the piston.
Other: Wow.
CB: Blimey.
LL: And it actually had dented the actual cowling.
CB: Gosh.
LL: And that engine kept going.
CB: Bristol Centaurus.
LL: Amazing, the old Centaurus, yes.
CB: So after Boscombe.
LL: Boscombe. Oh yes. I was sent up to Finningley to take over the Vulcan simulator. And I had to be checked out on the Vulcan again.
CB: On a flying one.
LL: Yeah. And we used to go there and I used to fly about once or twice a week.
CB: So, with the simulator did the crews go into that before they did flying in the OCU?
LL: Yes. Part of their training for their conversion.
CB: Yeah.
LL: Was to do the simulator.
CB: Right.
LL: And then they had to, when they were on the Squadron they had to do so many hours on the simulator every month.
CB: Right.
LL: And of course they came to me. Then we put in faults and all that sort of stuff.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And it was very, it was an analogue type simulator. It was nothing like what they have these days.
CB: Right.
LL: And the one I saw at Heathrow for an aircraft, I forget what it was, you know you could dial up Toronto or Singapore or various airfields and you could do your landings at, you know at those particular airfields. And when you took off it actually looked as if you took off. You know. There was a slight rumble and they’ve got airborne and the horizon and the cloud and all this sort of stuff and it was so realistic it was amazing. It put my simulator to shame.
CB: So how long did you do your tour at Finningley?
LL: I did —
CB: What age were you then?
LL: I retired there and I was coming up to tour-ex and I didn’t, and of course we bought the house and we were living in it and I applied to stay. So I actually did another tour. I did nearly ten years there.
CB: Did you really?
LL: I got a bit bored towards the end of course with it all. I tended to lose a bit of interest.
CB: Well, you’d been doing it in total for how many years? The Vulcan.
LL: Yeah. Anyway, the, I left the Air Force and then they decided that they would civilianise instructors on simulators, The Air Ministry. And as I was leaving the Air Force I thought I might as well become a civilian. And I had to go down to Air Ministry and had an interview and I got the job with the Civil Service as a simulator instructor. A civilian one. And I did that for a couple of years and then because the Vulcan was, the V force was disbanded and I lost my job. And that’s when I left for, a friend of ours put me, put me in touch with somebody or somebody was put in touch with me and came to see me and asked if I would like a job with a recorder with the Milk Marketing Board. And I said, ‘Anything to stop me being bored.’ And that’s how I started and I did ten years of that. And then Diana retired because she was a teacher.
CB: Right.
LL: At the Rossington School in Yorkshire. And she did twenty odd years teaching. When we were at Boscombe Down she just suddenly over one meal said, ‘I’ve enlisted in the teacher’s training course in Salisbury. I said, ‘What? You’ve done what?’ ‘She said, ‘I’m going to be a teacher.’ So, anyway when I was posted north she hadn’t finished her teacher’s training course. She had another term to go. So I got into a married quarter at Finningley and Diana stayed down at, in Salisbury. She stayed with a friend of ours, Geoff Boston and his family. And then she came up and got this job with, at Rossington School.
CB: Brilliant.
LL: You could hear Diana out. I used to go and pick her up sometimes. She had her own car but sometimes I used to go and pick her up. And I could, as I approached the school you could hear Diana’s voice telling the kids to shut up or do something or other. Using her sergeant major voice. One day when I was there and the kids had all gone out and I was back, still on the classroom I wrote on the board, “Silence in class,” in big letters. And the next morning when Diana came in, and the children she couldn’t understand why they were so quiet. You know. Sitting there all peaceful quiet. And then she turned to put the date on board and saw, “Silence in — [laughs] Oh dear. Lovely. Lovely.
CB: Can we do a fast backwards?
LL: Oh yes. Go. Yes.
CB: Most people flying with your seven thousand hours of experience have had the odd hiccup and we’ve talked about one or two things but when you were at Hornchurch what happened there as the most dramatic event at Hornchurch when you were taking off one day?
LL: At Hornchurch.
CB: So, two of you in Spitfires.
LL: Do you know I can’t [pause] Hornchurch.
CB: You mentioned earlier that at Hornchurch you’d had a bit of a dicey time taking off with your wingman.
LL: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, it was a grass airfield. Hornchurch was. We were over there. 129 Squadron and 222 Squadron were over here and Wing Commander Crawford Compton.
CB: Oh yes.
LL: Was the wing commander flying and he had a Spitfire which was the pride of Hornchurch. It was a special finish. And anyway that day we were called for operation and we used to take off in twelves. And Crawford Compton taxied out with 222 Squadron and lined up across the airfield and we came up and lined up behind us. And I was flying as number two to the CO. And I had my number two, number, number one to the CO, and I had my number two tucked in here and of course we had the other aircraft. And we saw the aircraft ahead of us 222 Squadron getting airborne. And [unclear] was my Squadron commander and he put his hand up and dropped his hand and we were off and I formated on him. Up came my tail to be confronted with a bloody Spitfire right in front of me, you know. And I slammed. I couldn’t turn left because I’d hit the CO. I couldn’t turn right because my number two would have gone straight into me. So I slammed the throttle closed and I couldn’t stop and I finished up on top of the Spitfire. I married it [laughs] And Crawford Compton saw me coming and he leapt out. Got out of the cockpit but he was still attached from his Mae West to his dinghy and so when he left, got out the cockpit he was held in, part in and part out by his connection and he actually physically broke it.
CB: Blimey.
LL: And then fell onto the ground as I hit, landed on top of his aircraft. And he tried afterwards to break that and he couldn’t. It was sheer bloody wilful powers.
CB: Yeah.
LL: That actually did it. And that morning he had said at briefing anybody who damages or [unclear] that Spitfire is posted out. And I’d got two. [laughs]
CB: What had happened to his Spitfire that caused you to catch him?
LL: Well, it was my prop chewed up all the tailplane and the fuselage and that sort of thing. And anyway, Crawford Compton came to see me afterwards and he said, he apologised to me. What had happened was that he had been running his engine on the Spitfire and consequently it was warmish or hottish before he got into it. And of course we started up and he taxied out and he was looking at his watch for take-off time and of course it got over heated. And he closed the throttle and shut down the engine and waved the rest of the Squadron on, and stayed put. Well, it was bloody obvious that the Squadron behind, somebody’s going, somethings going to happen. What he should have done was taxied out and to hell with the engine boiling and got out of the way. But he apologised for, and said that it was alright. And funny enough when we were married and at the reception committee at the CnC’s house old Crawford Compton was there. No, it wasn’t Crawford Compton. It was, I’ve got the wrong name. He was a New Zealander. Anyway, he came up and sort of was talking and I said to him, ‘I nearly killed you.’ And he looked at me and he said, ‘Hornchurch.’ I said, ‘Two Spitfires. Remember.’ ‘Oh, of course.’ [laughs] He was at, he was at our wedding reception. Crowley-Milling was the CO of 6 Squadron out in the Middle East. And he became quite a very senior officer. He became an air marshall or something.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And I met up with him again at Broady’s funeral. He was there.
CB: Yeah. He was a Battle of Britain man.
LL: That’s right.
CB: What would you say was your most memorable point during your service in the RAF?
LL: That’s a very difficult question. Getting my AFC at Buckingham palace, I think. Because I’m very much a royalist and to go to Buckingham Palace was really something. And Diana was with me and my mother.
CB: How did the day go?
LL: Unfortunately, Diana had a stinking headache when she came out and we were going to celebrate but all she wanted to do was to go to bed and rest. And so we were staying with a friend of hers and so the rest of the day was, had to be cancelled. But it was, you know I think getting, going to Buckingham Palace and getting the AFC was really a highlight in my life. And I appeared in, my name was in the Plymouth paper and what not.
CB: So how did the day progress? How did it start?
LL: What for AFC?
CB: Yes. Did you spend the night in London?
LL: Oh, yes.
CB: And then go.
LL: Yes.
CB: Or what did you do?
LL: We were living in Salisbury and we came up by train and we got a taxi. And I think we went straight to Buckingham Palace.
CB: You were a Squadron leader at that time.
LL: No, I was — was I? I suppose I must have been. Yes.
CB: And what was the procedure? You came to the front of Buckingham Palace.
LL: Yes. And then the ushers actually took us in and took us to this big hall and got the AFCs and those sort of minor medals were right at the end. All the knighthoods and things, you know were up front.
CB: Yeah.
LL: So I was right, right at the end.
CB: In your number 1 uniform.
LL: And the Prince. Yes. Oh, yes. Nicely pressed and presented. And Prince Phillip said, ‘What did you get your medals for?’ I said, ‘Well, I haven’t seen the citation, sir.’ In fact, I never did see the citation.
CB: oh.
LL: And I told him that I was the Bomber Command demonstration pilot and I performed in various places and countries. And he said, ‘Did you bend it? Did you bend it?’ Said Prince Phillip. I said, ‘No. I pulled the odd rivet, I think.’ And he grinned and that was it.
CB: So the procedure is that he pins on the AFC medal.
LL: Yes. That’s right.
CB: What did you do then?
LL: Oh I don’t know. I think we just left. There wasn’t a sort of reception or meal or drinks or anything like that. I think we, I think we left. Do you know I can’t recall. All I know was that Diana wanted to get away because she had this ghastly headache. It was a migraine of some sort.
CB: In the wartime what was the most exciting activity that you engaged in? Was it chasing the V-1s? Was it ground attack?
LL: I think it was ground attack. We, when I was on Mustangs at Coolham and the invasion started we had two five hundred bombs stuck underneath each.
CB: Did you?
LL: One under each wing and every time we went over there we bombed sort of bridges or targets, and various targets, and it was, it was quite hairy at times I can tell you. We’d got twelve aircraft sort of, you know milling around and doing things. You had to keep your eyes open.
CB: Did you have a designated target before you left or was it a target of opportunity?
LL: No. It was, we had to go to a certain area.
CB: Yes.
LL: And possibly bomb a certain bridge, and then it was freelance after that. But we knew where the front line was and all that sort of thing. And it was the old Typhoons that really braved the day. Of course, the old Tyffy was designed for ground attack and at Falaise Gap they really slaughtered —
CB: Yeah.
LL: The Germans there.
CB: With rocket firing.
LL: Yes. The introduction of rockets was really a step forwards.
CB: Yeah. The sixty pound warhead, rocket.
LL: When they said that Rommel was killed, you know.
CB: Wounded.
LL: I think it was, was it an accident?
CB: He was in his staff car, wasn’t he?
LL: Well, I thought it was me did it in a way because on one of these ramrods I was leading another Mustang and we came across this staff car with outriders and, and we attacked it. And the, and the occupants sort of dived for the ditches and that sort of thing and it looked like a senior officer as I shot over the top. So afterwards I thought I must have done it. But I hadn’t. It must have been some other senior officer. But on those ramrods. It was a target of opportunity if you see what I mean.
CB: Yeah. You weren’t called up by a forward air controller.
LL: Yeah. We went for trains and that sort of thing. Engines.
CB: How did you get trained to drop your five hundred pounds bombs?
LL: Sorry?
CB: How did you get trained to do your bomb dropping?
LL: Ah, there’s a thing, there’s a thing. When, before we went on to Mustangs or it could have been afterwards, anyway we went to an Armament Training Centre. Now, where I’ve no idea. I think it was North Wales. We did air gunnery and we did bombing. And the way you did bombing was using your gunsight. You know, diving down but generally speaking when you’re low level it, we just came up towards the target, hoped for the best, pressed the tit and both bombs went.
CB: But you needed to know —
LL: It was hit and miss. Very much a hit and miss but with the, if you dived down from any height you used your gunsight on a target and you had to get a, possibly a forty five degree angle.
CB: And would you put deflection on the gunsight?
LL: That’s right. And when I was in the Middle East with 213 Squadron I became an ace at rocket firing, I don’t know why.
[doorbell rings]
LL: Ah, that’ll be the gardener.
CB: Right, I’ll stop it there.
[recording paused]
CB: We talked a bit earlier about fighter affiliation and you being up at Ingham and it’s really the process of that that I wanted to know more about. So before the sortie, how did the briefing go when you ran a fighter affiliation?
LL: I was just told that the bomber would be over head at a certain time and then it was my responsibility to get airborne and meet it.
CB: Right.
LL: That’s about it.
CB: I was thinking in terms of once you’ve done it you can do it regularly. But what was the instruction for the fighter pilot? In terms of his actions —
LL: Had to do quarter attacks on it.
CB: Right. So that means —
LL: To give the gunner deflection —
CB: Yeah.
LL: Type practice.
CB: So would that be from the forward as well as the rear quarters?
LL: You mean the upper —
CB: When you’re coming away from —
LL: Well, whoever I suppose all positions were manned and I suppose they were all taking pictures of me.
CB: Yes. I was thinking of your attack on the bomber. So the bomber is flying along.
LL: Yeah.
CB: Would you be doing some attacks from the front quarter?
LL: No. I would up to the left and diving down on to them
CB: Right. Now, with fighters there is a fairly prescribed route that you take. You don’t go straight in, do you? It comes, you come in you come in on a curve. How does that work?
LL: Practice.
CB: But, but yes, so you work it out. Could you explain how you work it out what you need?
LL: Well, the thing is somehow, in daytime of course it’s easy.
CB: Yes.
LL: Because you can see the bomber and you do a quarter attack on to it as you would do on to, on to another fighter really.
CB: Yes.
LL: But at night time, of course to see the bomber invariably you had to be much closer before you actually started.
CB: Yeah.
LL: If you were got far away you lost sight of the bomber.
CB: Yeah. Just going back on this just to get some idea are you coming in in a sort of parabolic curve? So that means that it’s not entirely predictable but you are coming in instead of straight —
LL: Oh yes.
CB: In a curve.
LL: One varies one’s attack, so from partially below or from above. And that sort of thing.
CB: Right.
LL: Oh yes. You had to vary your, your attack.
CB: Yeah. And in the dark identify where the bomber is. What can you see of the bomber? Can you see the exhaust flashes?
LL: Not really. Not really. They had the downward ident and I think while we were actually doing the attack they had the nav lights on dim or something like that. We had a method of somehow seeing the bomber. You know, you are asking me something now I can’t honestly remember. All I know is I daren’t lose it.
CB: No. But you were in a, in a group doing this activity at Ingham. There was a unit.
LL: That’s right.
CB: So there were a number of you who were fighter pilots who’d finished a tour.
LL: In fact one or two were ex-bomber pilots.
CB: Oh.
LL: Who’d been transferred across. And they’d come from Lancasters to Spitfires.
CB: Really?
LL: In fact when I, that posting I told you about that I accepted it was one of the bomber pilots, ex-bomber pilots who was posted on to Typhoons and he didn’t want to do it, and I took his posting.
CB: So, as a, as a unit to what extent did you exchange views, ideas and experiences in attacking bombers?
LL: I don’t think we did, we did it just our own experience.
CB: Because you were all experienced. Normally you were experienced pilots.
LL: That’s right. We were all experienced.
CB: Yeah. And then in the dark you would follow the, if you were at Ingham then the bombers didn’t land at Ingham did they? So —
LL: Oh no.
CB: So did you land with the bomber and then move in the daytime back to Ingham?
LL: Well, Ingham was quite close to the Bomber Command station and sometimes, most times we flew up to the, say Lindholme or Sandtoft or someplace and met them above. Above. Above.
CB: Yeah. But you wouldn’t be able to see the airfields normally would you?
LL: No.
CB: Right. And did the bombers have their IFF switched on so people —
LL: Ah. If they did it certainly didn’t help us.
CB: No, but I was, what the reason I asked that is the Identification Friend or Foe is designed to make sure that other aircraft —
LL: Oh yes, yes.
CB: Night fighters particularly don’t shoot you.
LL: Well, we carried IFF enough.
CB: Yeah.
LL: On the fighter.
CB: As well.
LL: I’d forgotten about that.
CB: So yours would have been switched on.
LL: Yeah.
CB: Because you don’t want to get jumped by a bona fide night fighter.
LL: [laughs] Oh dear, yeah. Then of course when we moved from Ingham and we were actually posted to, to Lindholme we were actually on the airfield where they took off.
CB: Yeah.
LL: And so therefore we used to just take off and meet them up above. And I can remember once there was thick cloud and I climbed up and up and I came out the top and I hadn’t a clue where I was. I couldn’t find this bloody bomber. I milled around and I called him. We could talk to each other and I couldn’t find him. And so I eventually descended and fortunately I knew where I was.
CB: When you go under the cloud.
LL: Under the cloud. I came in and landed. Aborted.
CB: So —
LL: Couldn’t find the blasted man.
CB: So, you’re in the dark coming back to land. How do you know where the airfield is and what runway you’re on?
LL: Well, contact air traffic.
CB: And they would put up the landing lights, would they? Airfield lights.
LL: We had — yes.
CB: The lights on the runway.
LL: That’s right. They had lights on the runway. They had to have.
CB: I’m thinking of just as —
LL: Yeah.
CB: The RAF did interdiction into Germany to shoot down night fighters the Germans actually did the same. So you had an interesting contradiction here.
LL: Do you know I suppose they must have had some sort of lighting on the runways. I can’t honestly remember. I can’t honestly remember. And talking about landing. Going back right back to America. When we started night flying on Harvards the American way of landing a Harvard at night was to come in on the approach and when you touched down stuff the stick forward to stay on the ground. And I couldn’t do this. I was either too early or too late and consequently if you hit the ground and you were a bit late you started bouncing. And I couldn’t master this and I went, go around again with my instructor sort of in the back getting a bit sore and I said, ‘Can I land this thing the way I want to please, sir.’ And he said, ‘Alright.’ And I came in and landed three pointer as I would in the daytime. And I made a lovely smooth landing. And he said, ‘Oh, that was good. Do it again.’ So off we went again. Opened the throttle, round we went on the circuit and I came around and I did another beautiful three pointer again. He said, ‘Right. You can do that in future.’
CB: So, there was a logic to their process. Their own process. What was that?
LL: I don’t know, it was a stupid idea.
CB: A good way of bending your propeller.
LL: And the wheels actually touching the ground, instead of touching you had to stamp your stick forward to hold, to keep the thing on the ground and of course the tail came up in the air. Oh dear. It was the most awkward bloody movement. I didn’t like it, that’s why I couldn’t do it I suppose.
CB: Did it result in accidents with people cartwheeling?
LL: No idea why they did it. But they did teach me one thing, and that was to land in the dark with practically no runway lightings. They had these goosenecks.
CB: Yeah.
LL: On the runway.
CB: [unclear]
LL: And they only had two at the beginning and two at the end. Towards the end. And the rest of the runway was dark and we had to land on that. Now, that bore me in quite good stead because when I was at Coolham George Powell and myself were scrambled in the, in the evening to intercept some fighters and it was aborted or something. Anyway, it got dark or getting dark and George and I somehow got separated and they had told us to divert to Ford Airfield. And I didn’t get it because my radio had gone unserviceable. So anyway, I returned to Coolham in the dark and circled the airfield and I came in and landed on the airfield in the complete darkness. And my flight commander came out and said, ‘Christ, how did you do that. What did you do that for? You were supposed to land at Ford.’ I said, ‘Was I?’ But I landed at the airfield in the dark on this, the runway which was this Somerfield tracking.
CB: Because of your training. At Ingham did they have Somerfield tracking?
LL: No. It was just pure grass airfield.
CB: So, landing there with no identification of runway —
LL: That’s right.
CB: In the dark was a bit of a challenge was it?
LL: It was a challenge at night. Yes. They had, sort of the odd light sort of around the airfield to indicate where I think, where the peritrack was or something like that but it was it was just a grass airfield. We just landed on it.
CB: Right. A lot, a lot of airfields had drem lighting, so once you got on the drem pattern —
LL: It’s amazing what you can do from just pure experience.
CB: Yes. But the drem lighting system led you on to the airfield.
LL: Yeah.
CB: You didn’t get that.
LL: They didn’t have drem lighting.
CB: No. Right. Which was the aeroplane you enjoyed flying most?
LL: I liked the Mustang. It was a roomy cockpit you see and we had this big canopy and you could actually sort of look around and it was, it was nice to fly.
CB: Bubble canopy.
LL: Bubble canopy, yeah.
CB: Yeah.
LL: No. I think the Spit, the Mustang and the Vulcan were the aircraft I liked flying best. And we were caught out in thick fog once in the old Vulcan and, and the country had gone out and when we got back to base they were completely out and they diverted me to Waddington and they were just about as bad. And, and of course we had this ILS approach. And I actually started the approach with the ILS and I kept on going and I couldn’t see the airfield at all. I just kept on coming down and then I flew over a landing tee, you know which is at the beginning of the runway. And I actually got on to the runway and I touched down and I yelled to the co-pilot, ‘Stream.’ And we streamed the ‘chute and I slammed on the brakes because I really couldn’t see where I was going. But I landed and I actually stopped on the runway. Much to my amazement. And I had to shut down there because I couldn’t see the taxi the fog was so thick. How I got down I just don’t know. But the wingco flying, silly bastard. He came out in a vehicle and parked himself beside the runway when I was landing. I could have —
CB: Run him over.
LL: I could have run over him if I hadn’t got straight on the runway. Anyway, they towed, they had to tow my aircraft back into, because I couldn’t taxi it. And when you put your landing lights on of course it reflected on to the fog and it made it even worse.
CB: Yeah. So you landed without your landing lights.
LL: Yes. I think that was my hairiest landing I think I’ve ever done.
CB: What were you carrying at the time?
LL: What was I — ?
CB: What were you carrying at the time? Bomb load.
LL: Nothing.
CB: Right.
LL: I wasn’t carrying any bombs or anything. It was just purely a training flight. Any more?
CB: That’s it. Les Lunn, thank you for a most interesting talk today.
LL: I hope I haven’t bored you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Leslie Grantham Lunn
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALunnLG171107, PLunnLG1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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03:00:37 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Description
An account of the resource
Leslie Lunn joined the RAF and after his basic training did his flying training in America. In the UK he joined 129 Spitfire squadron after completing his training. The squadron later converted to Mustangs. His squadron covered the D-Day landings and was switched to dealing with the V1 flying bomb threat, and during these sorties he destroyed one V-1 and recorded two probables. He later took part in fighter affiliation duties working with Bomber Command. He converted onto the Typhoon and later the Tempest with 222 Squadron after moving back to Fighter Command. He joined 1 Squadron flying the new Meteor jet fighter. He was later posted via Italy and Austria to the Middle East serving in the Canal Zone. When he returned to the UK he joined 63 Squadron flying the Canberra, and later converting on to the Vulcan joining 617 Squadron. He also became the display pilot for the Vulcan. He was awarded the AFC by Prince Philip at Buckingham Palace.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
France
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Essex
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
208 Squadron
222 Squadron
63 Squadron
aircrew
Meteor
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
P-51
pilot
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021)
RAF Hornchurch
RAF Ingham
RAF Shallufa
RAF Waddington
Spitfire
training
Typhoon
V-1
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1561/34804/SRAFIngham19410620v070001-Audio.2.mp3
1cdda487d490705f1871c23fb467186a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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RAF Ingham Heritage Group
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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RAF Ingham
Description
An account of the resource
25 items in six collections. The collection concerns RAF Ingham and contains interviews photographs and documents concerning:
Andrzej Jeziorski - Pilot 304 Squadron
Arthur Hydes - Boy in Ingham
Brian Llewellyn -ATC
Jan Black - Rear Gunner 300 Squadron
Lech Gierak - Armourer 303 Squadron
Marion Clarke - MT Driver RAF Ingham
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak - Armourer
Stanislaw Jozefiak - Air Ops 304 Squadron - Pilot on Spitfires
Wanda Szuwalska - Admin 300 Squadron Faldingworth
Zosia Kowalska - Cook RAF Ingham
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by the RAF Ingham Heritage Group and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Other]: Make a start.
Int: Right, I’ll just, I will leave it on because this is the rough cut. Obviously what we’ll do is, just give you a copy, on a CD, of the whole recording. And then obviously when we come to do a production side of it, we’ll cut out the bits that are relevant towards the Heritage Centre but we’ll give you a copy for your family, or a couple of copies if you’d like that.
[Other]: That’ll be lovely dad!
Int: We’ll just leave the camera rolling. If at any time you want to have a break, or you need to use the toilet, or you would like a drink, if we just say and we can stop, because it won’t matter on the film: we’ll just keep it rolling. Because sometimes, we found in the past, that when we’ve interviewed some of the veterans, they’ll say could I just stop now for a cup of water, glass of water or something, so we switch it off, and that’s when some of the very interesting little pieces of information come out, when they’re just chatting, so sometimes it’s worth leaving it on. I did a very, very quick bit of research into you before I came here, so I know a little [emphasis] bit about you, and it is only a very small amount, because I didn’t realise that you were an armourer, um, I probably should have done, and obviously although you’re known as Michael, or Michael now, obviously you had your Polish first name which, would you like to pronounce it for me?
MM: [Phonetically] Michislov. [Laughter]
Int: Thank you. My pronunciation would be very embarrassing to you.
[Other]: I can’t pronounce it, can’t spell it, let alone!
Int: M I E C H Z Y S L A W. Yes.
[Other]: Miecyzslaw, something like that.
Int: How do you pronounce your surname, your family name?
MM: [Phonetically] Marishtack.
Int: Marishtick.
[Other]: [Phonetically] Marishtak. Marishtak, yes.
MM: There, you see I was in Gaza at that time, that was, Rommel was, British was worried about that, taking over Suez Canal and I wasn’t in the Air Force yet, but was about hundred fifty Polish boys, we supposed to learn how to repair the tanks, you know, but that Australian say look, its take lot of time to learn, I’m going to teach you how to drive and we going to repair and we going on the desert and test them they okay, on the front because there was hurry, you know, be ready before Rommel attacks the Suez, so I got for that, medals.
Int: And how old were you at that time then, in the desert?
MM: I was very young, well [pause] about seventeen I think, seventeen.
Int: And were you part of the Polish Air Force or the Polish Army at that time?
MM: The Army.
Int: Part of the Polish Army.
MM: At Gaza, yes. Because that was Gaza, was on the Egyptian Palestinian border, that time was, [cough] well, under British rule in Palestine, you know that. I was in Palestine as well.
Int: And you’ve obviously mentioned that you were trained in the Polish Air Force to be an armourer. When you were in the Polish Army, in Palestine, did you also deal with the shells and the bullet side of things as an armourer, or not?
MM: No. You see after that I was removed, victory was Alamein, and they moved to Egypt, and Egypt er, that was quite lot of boys and was about, volunteers about six hundred fifty, because Polish was, more to, Polish aid for us in England. So there, you know, the examination, you know, doctor, you know, everything was, so six hundred, six hundred forty five, is only sixty five been accepted, and from that time I joined the, to the Polish Air Force.
Int: Why did you decide that you wanted to apply to join the Polish Air Force? What was the reasons behind that do you think?
MM: Well because Polish, they came round to Egypt and they want some replacement in England for the younger people, you know.
Int: I was just wondering why you chose, did they, was there any, was there an incentive?
MM: I didn’t choose that.
Int: You didn’t choose, oh, okay.
MM: They just said volunteers you see! [Laugh] So this stay in Egypt and from Egypt we travelled by Royal Britannia ship round Africa because we going to go through that where U-boat was, German U-boat, and round the Capetown. We stopped in Capetown for about three days and because not only Polish but was Yugoslavian, all different nationalities, Greeks, and they all different, and we arrived to Freetown, and Freetown to Liverpool. And from Liverpool came to Halton.
Int: What, what time of year did you arrive in Liverpool? Was it the summer, or the winter, or?
MM: That wasn’t winter, no, no, no, that was er, [pause] which date was that, approximately.
Int: I’m just thinking that having been in Palestine, and having been in in Egypt, and then even South Africa, coming to Britain, and Liverpool, must have been probably very cold, very wet.
MM: No, no, no, that was June or July, something like that, that time, we arrive to England. That was in, practically summer, was that time.
Int: What was your, can you remember your first impressions when you landed in Liverpool, in England?
MM: Balloons [laugh]. Yeah, there were balloons everywhere.
Int: Oh, the barrage balloons. Yes, yeah. And then you went, you said you went to Halton.
MM: Halton, yes.
Int: For your training. Can you tell me -
MM: We travelled during the night, I don’t know why, we actually arrived early and having travelled through the night, and I seem to remember they stop us in Crewe; they give us some cup of tea and sandwiches. [Laugh]
Int: That was nice, and was it in the back of a lorry then, that you travelled?
MM: No, no, it was train.
Int: Oh, on a train, right.
MM: Yes. I think it was Crewe which er, and we arrive very late in Halton.
Int: And what are your memories of Halton, as a training?
MM: Oh, they was very good, you know, because most of the people was coming from the 303 Squadron, from Northolt, for, to Halton, for training. Some of them depends what, some of them just gunnery, you know, three months training and you’re off you know. But you know, was very, very, training was very, very good, you know, was excellent, you know, we got everything. Even remember the Russian er, [indecipherable] Bureau like came round to visit Halton and what happened they, the Brit, they shut us completely! [Laugh]
Int: They just, they wouldn’t talk to you, they just ignored you completely.
MM: Yes. They said no, no, put in school and then they shut us, the workshop up is completely: all Poles.
Int: Shut away. And how long after you arrived, did you hand over your Army uniform and then you got the blue, the blue uniform for the Air Force?
MM: Oh yes. When we arrived to Halton I got given blue uniform.
Int: Blue uniform. Then you were in the Air Force, the Polish Air Force.
MM: Yeah. That’s right.
Int: And can you remember the insignia and the badges you wore at all? Were they RAF ones or were they Polish Air Force?
MM: Polish Air Force.
Int: Polish Air Force. How long, roughly how long did you stay at Halton for, to do your training?
MM: Oh, training for, because the, I was for training this time four years, for training.
Int: Four years at Halton!
MM: Because you know, we supposed to go to Poland, after the war and you know, but they, Polish Government, say you must let every arms they got in Britain, you know, like rockets and everything, you know, and at the time was top secret, you know.
Int: So, when your training had finished, at Halton, which RAF station did you go to after Halton?
MM: Hah, Lincolnshire.
Int: Lincolnshire. Can you remember the name of the station?
MM: Cammeringham. Cammeringham.
Int: At Cammeringham, you were actually at Cammeringham were you? Right. So that would have been, it changed its name from RAF Ingham to Cammeringham in November 1944, so if you knew it as Cammeringham, you must have gone there from November ‘44 onwards at some point. So, if you haven’t already got them we can get hold of your service records – you’ve got them have you? No. We can get your service records from Northolt. There’s a lady called Margaret Goddard.
MM: Oh yeah, I know her, yeah.
Int: And she can find your records, which will show the dates you went to each station, which is good for you, and for your family.
MM: I remember there used to be NAAFI canteen on that river in Lincolnshire.
Int: In Lincolnshire. NAAFI, NAAFI was.
Int: Was a NAAFI canteen in the middle of Lincoln was there?
MM: Yes, I can remember the river was you know.
Int: In the middle of Lincoln, there is a -
MM: Yeah. Not far from the Cathedral, you know.
Int: Yes, yes I know the one you mean. There’s a big, large, well they call it a pond, but it’s called Brayford, Brayford Pond, with all the barges.
MM: That’s right, that was NAAFI.
Int: Oh right, okay. What, can you remember much about Cammeringham, RAF Cammeringham? Just to help your memory, the airfield was on the top of the hill and the Station Headquarters was down in the village of Ingham. Does that ring a bell at all?
MM: Well you see at that time they knew that we never go back to Poland and a lot of people try to register, go to Argentina, to United States, you know, Canada.
Int: Oh, as part of the Polish Resettlement Act, yes, but you decided to stay at Cammeringham for a while.
MM: Actually, I was going to [chuckle] Argentina!
Int: Right, okay.
MM: But I met one chap, he was from Argentina, he was in Polish Army, and he said never go to Argentina!
Int: And why was that then?
MM: Because is, you got problems over there and he say I wouldn’t advise you to go to Argentina. So I’ve still got the papers, you know!
Int: That you could have decided to go there, but instead you stayed in England.
MM: Yes.
Int: And when you were at Cammeringham did you do any of your armourer jobs, was that with loading the machine guns or were you an armourer that dealt with the bombs?
MM: I had a, that was, from Cammeringham and was posted to 48MU, in Wrexham.
Int: Okay. Right.
MM: That was, I used to, quite lot of, because guns and machine guns, you know, in Wrexham. You know, Holyhead, if you go that way.
Int: So in Wrexham it was a big store for machine guns?
MM: RAF station!
Int: Oh, it was an RAF station was it, at Wrexham, right, okay. Was your job to maintain them or was it more for storage?
MM: Sort out, you know, quite a lot of them used to go to the, check them in the temperature and everything, you know.
Int: So did that include dismantling, taking machine guns to bits, and refurbish them, change the barrels and things?
MM: From the, yeah.
Int: Right. So is that a job that you could do with your eyes closed, when, at the time, you became very skilled at that.
MM: Well, yeah.
Int: Yeah. And did you get a chance to fire any of the guns on the practice ranges at all, or not? Or were you just purely putting the guns together?
MM: Not in the air.
Int: Was that a bit, was that a good job? Was it a boring job?
MM: Oh, you know. Well you know, somebody has to do it!
Int: Somebody has to do it. Before you went to Wrexham, if we could just go back one step to when you were at Cammeringham, what did you actually do at Cammeringham?
MM: Actually I was doing, there were no jobs, everybody was thinking what I’m going to do, you know.
Int: Right, so you were still in the Polish Air Force, but there wasn’t a job for you at the time? So you spent all [emphasis] of that time training and then you got to Cammeringham and there was no job for you.
MM: Well that was, you know, that was probably closed that station, you were just only waiting for the different people going different countries, you know.
Int: But there was a lot of Polish airmen at Cammeringham at the time, yes?
MM: Yes. Some of them they went back to Poland, you know, but.
Int: It’s not a good story, no. I’ve heard several accounts from people where they went, [beep] especially if they’d been in the Polish Air Force, and then they were arrested by the Soviets, and the Russians, and some were executed, which is er, just for being in the Polish Air Force. A lot of your colleagues were at Faldingworth, which was just about five miles down the road, a lot of them, and the Polish 300 Squadron were there. So you went to Wrexham and you did the 48MU job at Wrexham, how long did you stay at Wrexham, can you remember?
MM: [Pause] No, I said, I was, because my station was er, in Framlingham.
Int: Framlingham. Yes. I’ve heard of it, I’ve heard of Framlingham, right.
MM: There was er, and I was only been attachment to the 48MU’s just only, you know, so I wrote the letter to them: can you call me back to, on my station. So you know, so they, yeah, I went back and say look, now you have to go to London and you have to look for a job.
Int: And that was, so that was the end of your Polish Air Force career.
MM: Yeah. And I stay in South Kensington, and for looking for the job because only job they was offering us is coal mine, you know. [Laugh]
Int: Or engineering? Did they offer you engineering?
MM: Engineering? No, no chance. No chance.
Int: No? So what kind of job did you get in the end then? What was your first job, being a civilian after the war?
MM: They told me you to go to the coal mine, I said no, I never go to coal mine. [Laugh] But all, so they decided to last, and I was from National Health making glasses. Spectacles glasses.
Int: Okay, right, okay, that was here in London was it?
MM: Yes, in London yes, in Camden Passage, in Islington. So I said all right, I’ll go that, but I wouldn’t go to the coal mine. [Laugh]
Int: And when did you meet your wife?
MM: [Cough] Oh, that was [muttering] 19, about 1960 [pause], 1960.
Int: And was she Polish or was she English?
MM: She’s Polish.
Int: She was Polish. And had she been a WAAF during the, a Polish WAAF during the years?
MM: No, no, no. She wasn’t, no.
Int: She’d just come across from Poland, okay. I notice looking at your medals you have the, is it the Tute Militaire? The very first one that you have here. Can you tell me a little bit about how you were awarded that, that medal?
MM: This?
Int: No, the very first one, this one here.
MM: Oh, that, no, no.
Int: This one there.
MM: That was Freedom for Polish, Freedom.
Int: Oh, that’s the Polish Freedom one is it? Right, okay. So that was awarded in about -
MM: At the Embassy.
Int: At 1990, or ’91 when Poland got its freedom.
MM: I have somewhere, upstairs, the letters, that was yes, was in the Ambassy, in London.
Int: Going back to your time in the Polish Air Force again, do you have any funny stories, any funny things, because with your fellow kind of airmen, the Polish airmen, you must have done some funny things then.
MM: Well it was funny stories, you know because when it was in Halton you were only allowed to go out for [cough] eleven, you know, well not twelve o’clock, yeah, before twelve you must be.
Int: You must be back before midnight, yes.
MM: But some of them was climbing through the windows! [Laughter]
Int: And did they get caught, or not?
MM: Yeah, what happened, and the sergeant was checking every bed, and somebody was going to each bed and was like saying yes, he’s in, he’s in, but he’s out!
Int: And then he’s sneaking back to his own bed, good. When you were there, you obviously had the big dormitories, the barrack rooms where you all slept in, what was the food like? Was the food good at Halton? Because it was English food I presume, not Polish food.
MM: That was the, actually, no, it was good food there, yeah, sausages, you know.
Int: Plenty of food, plenty of food?
MM: Yeah. And usually that was prisoner of war working in the cookhouse.
Int: What, German prisoners of war or Italian?
MM: Italians.
Int: Italians. That could be a good thing if you like Italian food!
MM: And they was free to go to the cinema, everywhere!
Int: Really!
MM: Yeah!
Int: But you couldn’t go out after twelve o’clock at night! Huh. That’s very strange, isn’t it. Yeah.
MM: And they used to sell the jewellery because, well, they had some watches and the you know, they was free, they didn’t want to go back to, escape to Germany.
Int: They were happy to stay in England then.
MM: Stay. Otherwise they probably go to Russian Front, you know. Yes, they got.
Int: If we can go all the way back to the beginning of the story, are you okay, do you want a break, are you okay?
MM: It’s all right, yes.
Int: Going back to talking about Palestine and the time you were In the desert with Rommel, and fighting Rommel, and you were saying you were allowed you to drive, what was your job, what kind of job did you do?
MM: Well I was testing the tanks.
Int: You were testing the tanks?
MM: On the desert, because that Bill, they repair, because they, mechanics you know, to learn how to repair the tanks was take time, he said look, we going to repair, I teach you how to drive, on the desert, and that’s you know.
Int: So as well as repairing the tanks then, as a mechanic, you also did, you had to go and test drive them as well?
MM: No, I didn’t repair, I only just test.
Int: Oh, you were only doing the test driving then. And was that fun? Especially as you were young. Driving tanks round the desert?
MM: Oh yes! And that chap, after the, Alamein, he was going, his name was Bill, and he’s Australian, and he would just say, I got nothing else to give you, he just cut his button from his coat and give it to me. So I kept that all the time.
Int: Oh! Did Bill make it through the war?
MM: I don’t know what happened, I don’t know, might have been killed, I don’t know. But what happened, in a Polish club in London, I met there, she was Wing Commander from the Australian Embassy, and I told her I got the button which is that Bill give me, and oh, was probably my grandad, so I don’t know. What regiment he was? But I didn’t ask him!
Int: But he was in Palestine at that time then was he? Yes?
MM: And I give it to her and she says she’s going to find out, you know, the name of that is.
Int: That sounds like a needle in a haystack, but you never know, you never know. So do you attend a lot of the Polish events that happen in London, at the Social Club at Hammersmith?
MM: Yeah, we go so often. Usually, we usually have the dinners once a month, you know.
Int: Well I mean, obviously, I met you, you might remember, in September, at the Polish Memorial, Northolt. It’s great to chat with you, what I was going to do now was just, I was gonna have a rest, just in case you wanted a cup of tea or something, we can talk a little more. Cause I know sometimes it’s, you’re thinking back and your mouth can get very dry, can’t it, especially when we’re just talking and it’s a thing. So I’ll leave the camera on, but if you’re happy, I don’t know whether you’d like a drink of water or a cup of tea or coffee?
MM: No, that’s all right, no.
[Other]: Dad, but where were you when the war finished? That’s the bit I don’t get.
Int: Right. Were you at Framlington?
[Other]: Where were you actually, when the actual physically the war finished?
Int: When it was VE Day kind of thing?
[Other]: Where was he?
MM: [Pause] 1945.
Int: Where were you actually, where were you stationed, at that time, when it was VE Day? Can you remember which station you were on?
MM: 1945, which station, I probably was still in Halton.
Int: Did they not have big celebrations?
MM: No. Because they didn’t invite for the -
Int: For the Polish.
MM: For Britain.
Int: To go to London, did you have them, if you were at Halton, or Wrexham, or even Cammeringham, wherever you were at, when it was VE Day, did they have a party on the station?
MM: Wrexham, we only had one celebration then was when Prince Charlie was born, 1948, and we had a barrel of beer, we had drunk that, you know, on his birthday.
Int: So you were still in the Polish Air Force then, in 1948, so that must have been almost the last year, because most of the Polish Air Force, from what I’m led to understand, obviously straight after the war, after VE Day, along with the problems where they wouldn’t let the Polish parade through London because of the Yalta Agreement.
MM: That’s right.
Int: With Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill, and I know that’s why they had the Resettlement Act and they had to absorb the Polish Air Force into the Royal Air Force properly, just so Stalin couldn’t get -
MM: We had the contract two years, Polish Resettlement Course.
Int: And I think it was 1948 was the last, when the last Polish squadron was disbanded, so that probably ties all of that in. It would be interesting, you know, if your daughter Joanne’s able to, on your behalf, to get the, your service records from Margaret, or a copy of them.
[Other]: Yeah, I can do that.
Int: Cause then it’ll show -
MM: I know her. Yes, I’ll go and see her in.
Int: She’ll be able to photocopy them and then give you a copy and at least you’ll be able to read all the dates on, and if it’s, I think if it’s very similar to the RAF’s one, it’s just a piece of almost brown card, two sides, which shows all of your, all the stations you were at and any courses you did, and even things like when you were on the sick or on leave, it’s all on one card that they did at the time. It’s all handwritten.
[Other]: Cause I’m just a bit confused here dad, so you went from Halton to Lincolnshire and then Wrexham, yeah.
Int: Yes.
[Other]: And then you went to London.
MM: To London.
[Other]: What year?
MM: I came to London to look for job.
[Other]: What year? Cause you were saying you were under the RAF until 1948.
MM: That was Polish Resettlement Course.
[Other]: So I’m just, and I just. It’s all right, I’m getting there. A bit confused.
Int: So, if we get things in the right order: you went to Halton, and then from Halton you went to Cammeringham did you, or did you go to Wrexham first, after Halton?
[Other]: Cammeringham.
MM: No, Cammeringham.
Int: Cammeringham.
MM: And from Cammeringham I went to Wrexham.
Int: To Wrexham, and then to Fram –
MM: Framlingham.
Int: Framlingham or Framlington? I’ll have to check exactly where that is. And then from Framlington that was it: were out of the Polish Air Force then?
MM: Sent us to London for.
Int: To find a job.
MM: That’s right.
[Other]: When they sent you to London, did you stay in an RAF base, or no? Were you private dwellings?
Int: Was it a private house, or was it still in barracks in London?
MM: No, no, in London that was hostel, South Kensington, was houses was probably very expensive, London houses. That was big hostel over that square, that was square, I would call it square.
Int: Straight after the war.
[Other]: So dad, where were you when you, when the announcement of the Second World War was over? When Churchill said, we are not at war any more, where were you? [Polish]
MM: I said I was still in Halton.
Int: You were still in Halton.
MM: In 1945.
Int: So 1945 you were in Halton. Then you moved to Cammeringham in ’46 because I mean Cammeringham was one of the Polish Resettlement Units. And Dunholme Lodge.
MM: That’s right, and they posted us to Wrexham.
Int: It was still under the kind of the Air Ministry’s control.
[Other]: Umbrella.
Int: While they did some training and they did, there was quite a few training: carpentry, electrical. They did all the courses there so they just used it as an RAF station but it was more of a training camp for training purposes.
MM: That’s right.
Int: And then obviously the MUs, which are the Maintenance Units but they normally store, big store camps, so obviously Wrexham was a big store camp where all the machine guns were coming back and they were being -
MM: From there the Wellingtons and all that, big er -
[Other]: So really, until the war finished you were based?
MM: At Halton.
[Other]: Until 1945 and then after that the Resettlement Act came in and by 1948 you were discharged to civilian life. Right, I’ve got that now. Okay. But when the Second World War finished, what happened, because that was a big news! So was there no celebration? Do you remember what you were doing when you found out the war was ended. I mean.
MM: I was still at Halton.
Int: You were still at Halton.
[Other]: But what were you doing?
MM: There still was training.
[Other]: [Polish]
Int: [Beep] Did they have a party perhaps, a big party at Halton, that day?
MM: At Halton, even, because what’s his name, Bevan, and he asked, give us a letter and give us, every members of the Polish er, boys, been given, to go to Poland or, or were you going to join the Polish Resettlement Course.
Int: Yes. Because of the shortage of jobs, he was the Trade Union, Bevan was the Trade Union man, wasn’t he, and they set the Trade Unions up, and don’t get me wrong but his point of view was, he didn’t want the Poles in Britain.
MM: Britain, no. That’s right.
Int: And that’s why, I think that’s why they only offered the Polish military –
MM: Coal mine.
Int: Ex military the coal mine, and some of them got into the steel works, the foundries, almost the jobs that nobody else wanted to do, so it was very restrictive, and obviously because the Trade Unions came in straight after the war, that’s when they were created, and that was very much in the National Health Service and everything else, but that’s when they said jobs for the Britons, you know, it was almost like, Churchill was Conservative, although he led the Coalition through the war years then he was, straight after the war he was kicked out and the Labour government came in and that’s how the Trade Unions came about, and that’s why, the Agreement was obviously made at quite a high ministerial level to have the Polish Resettlement Act.
MM: That’s right.
Int: Of 1947 I think it was, to protect the Polish servicemen and women that wanted to stay in the UK, or it allowed them to go to the Empire countries, Canada, even America although that’s not an Empire country, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia and - .
MM: All different countries.
Int: Yes, yes.
[Other]: But Dad, you misunderstand. I’m going to say it in Polish. [Polish]
MM: In Halton.
[Other]: [Polish]
MM: I can’t remember that.
Int: No.
[Other]: I was asking him what he was, the moment he found out when the Second World War finished. I remember when Diana died. I can tell you exactly what I was doing.
Int: Yes.
MM: We didn’t celebrate because was Yalta.
Int: Yes, because of Yalta a few weeks before this, and that meant you’d lost Poland.
MM: We didn’t celebrate.
[Other]: I see, okay, that’s a different side.
Int: That’s probably why, yes because I mean Yalta was really more Roosevelt and Stalin; Churchill was just a puppet.
MM: Puppet, yes.
[Other]: That explains that, yeah.
Int: He was part of the three but he had to go along with what the two big powerbrokers wanted and they carved up Europe at Yalta and Poland unfortunately was the one that suffered because it got kind of.
MM: Roosevelt was very sick man, he was very sick, he was actually dying and Truman took it over, you know, after Roosevelt.
[Other]: But in those four years that you were based at Halton, did you witness bombings in England, you know, saw the active stuff, you know, the active service. Obviously you get the planes ready for them to go off to battle, obviously I’m guessing here.
Int: Halton being a training -
MM: Training.
Int: Was all the four years that you did at Halton, was that all training or were you an instructor then?
MM: No, all training.
Int: Just all training. And was that just [emphasis] for training to maintain the machine guns or did you do bombs, fusing up the bombs and everything?
MM: Bombs, fusing, [indecipherable] everything.
Int: So as an armourer you did all the jobs.
MM: And then rockets.
Int: And the rockets.
MM: They been before well, they was first to use the aeroplane.
Int: To fire the rockets, right at the end of the war, so you had to be trained up to do all of that.
MM: That’s right.
Int: Whilst you were at Halton were there any air raids, at night, where the sirens went off and the bombs dropped at Halton, or not?
MM: What happened, for about each, because Air Ministry was worried when start bombing London, and they move us to Cosford, RAF station Cosford.
Int: Right, okay, yes.
MM: And I assume the Air Ministry wants to move to Halton, that’s, so they move and stay at Cosford, Wolverhampton, you know that.
Int: Yes. Over in the West Midlands, yes.
MM: We stayed there, I can’t remember how many, three months or something.
Int: Three months. And did you go back to Halton afterwards?
MM: Oh yes.
Int: So was just for three months they moved you out of Halton, over to Cosford near Wolverhampton. And did your training continue there, or did you do something special?
MM: Yes, it was training.
Int: Just normal training.
MM: Yes.
Int: At Cosford. And was that quieter at Cosford? Was there not as many air raids?
MM: No, well, was different was because the Cosford was, because Halton was, had the equipment for training but Cosford, you know.
Int: Didn’t have it. So what did you do while you were there then, at Cosford?
MM: Still, you know.
Int: Yes. And was there an airfield, as in where planes aircraft could land at Cosford or was it just a factory kind of?
MM: No, I think that was only for factory.
Int: Just like a training, in a factory, yes.
[Other]: Dad, sorry, why were you trained for so long, for four years, you know, normally now it’s just for three months off you go to, I just, why were they training you for so long?
MM: Don’t forget, we stake everything [emphasis].
[Other]: Yeah, but dad, it’s war, people, they need men.
MM: But you don’t. It’s not only that, you’re training each, even, even if you write there how to kill the person, you know, all different things we didn’t know.
[Other]: But that’s -
MM: Some, if you want to kill the person, if he’s going to start writing and it’s blow up his face and it kill them.
Int: I think what Joanne was perhaps meaning was, normally training would be maybe one year, maybe a little bit, but because it was war you would imagine that they wanted to get you trained very quickly and then straight out to the airfields. The question was -
MM: But not bomb everything targets, it’s not that simple like that.
[Other]: I know dad.
MM: It takes, you know.
[Other]: But four years in a war’s a long time, in a situation of war.
MM: Yeah, don’t forget four years, it’s not only that, guns. [Pause]
[Other]: I’ve lost you.
Int: So during your time at Halton, as well as going to Cosford, did you have small amounts of time where you went off to other RAF airfields to actually practice what you’d been trained, or not?
MM: No.
Int: No, you just stayed at Halton.
MM: They was trying to get more information, you know, and instructors who came from London and give us all the guns, well guns and ammunition and material which is TNT, you know, and so how to.
Int: It sounds a little bit like your training was more experimental training.
MM: Yes, yes.
Int: Not the standard training so any new bombs or new rockets – am I going down the right road here?
MM: Yes. Everything was secret and that’s why the training was so secret.
Int: Right, we’re starting to drill down into a little bit now.
[Other]: So, did you have to sign the secret service act?
Int: The Official Secrets Act.
MM: Well, we have to, you know. The service was secret.
Int: I meant as opposed to maybe an ordinary [emphasis] Polish Air Force armourer, that did his basic training and went straight out onto a squadron.
MM: Oh yes. That’s three month course.
Int: Yes, that’s the three months course. So in fact the time at Halton, although you said it was training, was it more, it sounds like it wasn’t basic training, it was specialist training as each new munitions came out, right.
MM: Yeah.
Int: So you were seeing how things worked and to improve it, so yes, you weren’t so much a student as a team that were there to um, I don’t know how to describe it to you, I’m trying not to put words into your mouth! So were you still in like a classroom situation at Halton?
MM: Yes.
Int: Oh right. But they would bring something new in and then talk about it. And what job did they give you to do? Was it to see how to make it better, or was it just purely to take it apart and put it together? I don’t want to put words into your mouth, I’m trying to find out exactly what you did at Halton.
MM: We usually, they like electrician was coming from London he was going to teach us electrician and some extras you know, which is, came round once a week and teach us electrics; it’s not only guns, everything you must know.
[Other]: What I think we’re establishing dad, is that you were, you’re right, you were training but you were given devices, or guns, or whatever, and they wanted you to try it out, it’s more that -
Int: Test and evaluation or something.
[Other]: Yes. You had your basic training of three months, yes. Everyone does three months.
MM: No, three years.
[Other]: Yeah, but. No.
MM: Basic training that’s only came only there for, for -
Int: I think what Joanne’s trying to ask the question is, you had your basic armourer’s training, at Halton – how to be an armourer basically. Your basic bombs and bullets, but then after that at Halton, you obviously specialised, at Halton, with maybe experimental bombs or experimental rockets, and new things; anything that was new. Cause if you had an electrician that came from London specially to Halton, to talk with you and to teach you, it sounds like what you were doing was more experimental work, maybe I don’t know. Hmm. Is it possible?
[Other]: How many was there in the class at one time, dad? Ten, twenty, fifty? Do you remember? And was there only one class or was there lots of classes?
MM: [Pause] |Well we had, it’s not only that, we had mathematics and everything, turrets, and you know, you have to, how to operate turrets for machine guns for the er, prepare the aircraft to, for the pilot to fly that Spitfire and you know, it’s not simple as.
Int: I know, I fully appreciate, it’s a very complicated.
MM: We started, you see you have to, to, must, it’s not only one turret you’ve got, all you’ve got different one top and bottom.
Int: Different kinds of makes and turret, yes, certainly. It’s interesting, maybe when you get the records from Margaret, it will actually say on there and remind you, you may well have been part, although you did your basic armourer’s training at Halton, perhaps they kept you at Halton, as part of a test and evaluation section and that’s why you stayed at Halton, that’s why you didn’t go to an airfield because the people from London would bring you up, he Air Ministry, would bring new things for you to look at and along with your colleagues.
MM: Because some people, some they decided they got enough and they went for the course for three months and came as a sergeant.
Int: Oh, okay!
MM: They didn’t want to continue.
Int: They didn’t want to continue, no. So it does sound like what you were doing there was some kind of specialisation, after your basic armourers training, so. And then that’s perhaps why you went to Wrexham afterwards, although you went to Cammeringham first didn’t you. But that was at the end of the war, so maybe they just used your skills as an armourer to deal with the machine guns and everything else because you were quite. What rank were you, that’s an interesting, that will give us, help a little.
MM: Well AC1, you know, when we finished.
Int: AC1 when you finished! Crikey. That’s interesting.
MM: We didn’t, we had.
Int: Right, and that was, AC1 is just aircraftsman first class. So that’s kind of the first or the second rung on the ladder, so after four years
MM: After everybody finished at Halton, they was first class.
Int: But you said some people could come out quickly and become a sergeant.
MM: Yes, they didn’t want to continue.
Int: So they didn’t want to do the armourers job.
MM: No, no, it’s not only armourers, they didn’t want continue because was different sections at Halton.
Int: Right, okay.
MM: It was not only the armourer, there was different sections.
Int: So they could change to a different section and become sergeant very quickly.
MM: Some of them engineer and so on, so that was different.
Int: I think it’ll be, it’s certainly worth you trying to get in touch with Margaret and see if you can get your records because that might, you might suddenly find that you were doing a very important job and you didn’t quite realise how important a job it was!
[Other]: But from what I’m hearing dad, because I’ve never heard of any of this, what I’m hearing is that, my understanding is that you, your division, whatever, at Halton, you were doing some secret service stuff, you know, you were examining.
Int: Possibly, yes.
[Other]: And you were probably told [emphasis] that you were under the training umbrella but you weren’t really, I think. [Beep]
Int: There’s a little bit more to this that perhaps they didn’t even tell you [emphasis]. They just said oh, you were doing some more training.
[Other]: So you were just told training so that if anything happened to you you’d say I was just doing training. In fact you were probably doing some.
Int: Some more interesting work.
[Other]: Without you realising you were doing.
Int: Which might be part of the reason as well, that you actually went to Cosford, to do some more things, but that you would think as just ordinary. Cause Cosford now, Halton and Cosford are still in the RAF now. Halton is the -
MM: No, Cosford, the reason we went Cosford because –
Int: They were doing something at Halton.
MM: They was bombing London.
Int: Oh, they were bombing! Right, okay.
MM: And the Air Ministry, I think they was trying to move to Halton.
Int: Right, that was the reason.
MM: That’s probably the reason, they move us from.
Int: Just, yes, they just give you some space at Halton possibly.
[Other]: Where is Halton, sorry.
Int: Halton is down kind of Aylesbury kind of way, that kind of.
[Other]: So it’s quite relatively near London still.
Int: Yes, it’s part of the old Rothschild’s estate.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
[Other]: And Northolt is the London base.
Int: That’s the one, yes, right just inside the M40.
[Other]: And your connections with Northolt is that you just used to go there?
Int: No, no, it was Cosford, which is over in the West Midlands. I don’t, did you ever go to Northolt during the war years when you were in the Polish Air Force? Or not?
MM: No. Some of them they’re coming from there.
Int: It was 303 Squadron that were based there, which is the Polish fighter squadron.
MM: They was coming for training.
[Other]: To Halton?
Int: To you, to Halton.
MM: You know for the, not only for me but for different engines or -
Int: Yes. So, so from 303 Squadron, the 303 Squadron armourers and the engineering teams for the engines and things used to come to Halton.
MM: They had the best in Halton.
Int: To get refresher training on new guns or new types of engines for the aircraft.
MM: They had special camp in Halton.
Int: Within Halton, right.
[Other]: It’s all kind of secretive.
Int: It’s kind of interesting, yes.
[Other]: This is quite intriguing.
MM: Sometimes when the cookhouse was closed for some reason, we went to the Polish dinner which is 303 Squadron used to have.
Int: Oh, they had a canteen, yes.
MM: We some Polish dinner!
Int: Proper Polish food, oh good! [Laugh] It’s interesting because as I say Halton is still there now, they use it for the new recruits just in any trade that come into the RAF. So Halton is still there. Cosford is still there and they do a lot of the training. In fact I think the armourers do their training at Cosford now, which is quite funny: that’s the complete circle has moved round. So both those stations are still there. Halton hasn’t really changed much, so if you ever got a chance to go there.
[Other]: I think Dad, you’ve been there.
MM: I’ve been to Halton, yes.
Int: Cause there’s just like the road that runs through the middle and there’s the top half of the camp and the bottom half of the camp.
[Other]: Yes, he’s been there. Okay.
MM: They use to march, they was calling Polish Avenue, and when they finish, they plant some trees, and they’re great.
Int: Huge big trees now, yeah.
MM: Polish Avenue.
Int: And they called that Polish Avenue did they? I’ll have to go and look. Next time I go to Halton, I’ll look and see if they still call it Polish Avenue.
[Other]: Thank you very much. So dad -
MM: We used to have, every morning we used to march to that, you know, after breakfast, to, to training.
Int: To your training area.
MM: At our school.
Int: Was it, can you remember now where, your barracks, when you lived in the barracks at Halton, were they at the bottom of the hill or the top of the hill? Could you, you probably can’t remember.
MM: The, the barracks, you can’t miss them because Polish Avenue, you’ve got Polish Avenue and that, as you’re walking, on the right hand side, that the barracks.
Int: That was your barracks.
MM: Two barracks, there was three, two barracks was. All different.
Int: And in your room, in your barrack room, it was just all Polish Air Force was it? Or was it a mixture of RAF and Polish?
MM: No. There was just two, two big barracks.
Int: Yes, but in the actual room, where you had maybe ten or twenty beds, in the room.
MM: There were many beds!
Int: But they were all Polish in that big room were they, or the English as well as Polish?
MM: No, no, no just Polish.
Int: Just the Polish.
MM: English were different.
Int: Yes. And when it came to special occasions during the year, special Polish occasions, including Christmas, did you have a Polish church, at Halton, that you could go to? A military church?
MM: Yes, yes. When Hitler declared war on the United States and we had, I remember one Christmas which is, the American came round and we had a big dinner.
Int: On the base, and did you -
MM: Yes. No, at Halton.
Int: Oh, at Halton. And di they bring a lot of extra food, special food from America?
MM: They had, you know, all different.
Int: Chocolate and things like that, yes. And when you were at Halton did you play any sport?
MM: Oh yes, swimming, we must swim, you know, you got, it doesn’t matter which is winter or summer still had to [indecipherable] had to learn must, you know, swim.
Int: I didn’t know whether you were perhaps a sportsman and you liked to play either football, or swimming or anything.
MM: Oh yes we usually have, used to have I think every Wednesday.
Int: Every Wednesday was sports day was it.
MM: And that was Mr Brown. [Chuckle]
Int: And Mr Brown was what, he was the instructor for sport?
MM: Instructor yes, for sport, yes. Was very nice chap.
Int: What’s your, what’s the memories, maybe one or two memories that you always have when you think back about Halton, anything to do with Halton at all. What’s the memories that you have, that you remember, if you were going to tell maybe two stories about Halton, what would those stories be?
MM: Well you know, the stories is completely different stories for our Wing Commander he was, well at that time he had a car, you know, Wing Commander what’s his name? Newbury. Newbury? And as he was coming to, to the station and two chap was walking, and he say can I give you a lift, you know, it was that station, and says oh yes please. And he say don’t tell the guards I left, don’t go through there, go to the main.
Int: And that was you was it? Oh, I thought it was you that he gave a lift to, but he gave a couple of guys a lift!
MM: He did.
Int: And at weekends, did you get time off at Halton? Did you get time off to go to the local town?
MM: Oh yes, we used to go to Aylesbury dancing, you know and also do dancing in Halton as well.
Int: And when you went off for your day off, or weekend, did you have to go in uniform?
MM: Yes.
Int: So uniform everywhere then. You didn’t meet any nice ladies then, when you were dancing? [Chuckles]
MM: Well!
[Other]: It’s all right dad!
Int: Good. Well that’s lovely. The only other thing I probably, we’ve talked an awful lot about Halton and I think there’s probably some more interesting little stories to come out of Halton. Could we, if you don’t mind, could we just go back to Cammeringham, how long do you think you were at Cammeringham for? Was it literally a couple of months, or was it a year?
MM: No, didn’t stay long.
Int: You didn’t stay very long.
MM: No. That’s why we posted.
Int: Yes.
MM: To the, from Cammeringham been posted to the Wales, you know that.
Int: To Wrexham.
MM: Wrexham.
Int: To Wrexham. So, you were saying that when you were at Cammeringham there wasn’t really a job for you, there was nothing to do.
MM: Cammeringham was just only for staying people.
Int: For the Polish resettlement.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
Int: So when you were there what did you do, each day, was there anything to do at all?
MM: Not really. No. The one chap he had a nice dog, and people’s giving him, sometimes give the dog penny, goes to the NAAFI, took penny and got the cake. [Laugh]
Int: Got the cake! That was the dog brought the cake back!
MM: Oh no!
Int: No, you got the cake for the dog!
MM: No, was for the dog!
Int: Ah right, I’m with you, right, okay. Can you remember when you were at Cammeringham, did you live in the village, in the barracks in the village, or up at the airfield?
MM: The airfield and the train was stopped, like where I was in the first squadron, and the train stop, you just put the hand, and the train stopped and you just can go to Ipswich or that place. Like bus now!
Int: Yes, oh man, that’s interesting.
MM: And a lot of people just playing the cards, you know, the cards.
Int: Yes. And that’s it that was it really, you played cards all day and then had your breakfast, your dinner and your kind of evening meal so that was it: there was nothing for you to do. Most of what’s, well, there is very little left at Cammeringham, or RAF Ingham now. There are a few, just a few nissen huts, a few buildings. The rank that you were at Cammeringham, I imagine the building that we’ve, that we’re renovating, was the building you would have eaten in because it was the airmen’s mess, um, oops, is it the other side round, wait a minute, yup, there we go, [paper shuffling] it probably looks very, very different, and that’s the thing with the kitchen, there was a dining room, and another dining room the other side, and that would have been the Junior ranks mess, up on the edge of the airfield, so I imagine, and that’s what it would have looked like, a computer drawing, so I imagine that’s where you would have eaten. You can hang on to that because it’s, some of it’s in Polish and some of it‘s in English, it just tells you a little bit about what we are doing at RAF Ingham, and you can see Cammeringham there, because obviously it was Cammeringham at the end of the war. It might jog a few memories. And we’ve got the web site as well which has got more photographs on it. I think, did I give you one of our cards beforehand? Did I?
[Other]: I’ve got your card.
Int: You’ve got my card, right that’s okay. But we’ve obviously got the web site and we’ve got a twitter now but we just use it purely and simply to put pictures on there and a little bit about what we’ve done the previous week when we’re doing all the works. We don’t use it as a chat room thing.
MM: And is another one which is from Halton, Sikorsky, when Sikorsky been killed, Mrs Sikorsky, and she invite me, I don’t know, another two chaps, for dinner to her, you know.
Int: To her house.
MM: Well, it’s a big house. And actually we came to London, she was in Baker Street, she was waiting for us, and the first thing we went to Madame Tussaud, and Sikorsky was already in Madame Tussaud. From Madame Tussaud we just walk maybe ten minutes, to big house, that policeman was standing in there [chuckle] and they prepare big meal you know, yes, we stay over there. And the evening we went to the, to the Piccadilly which is what er, the place, what you call it, because that Sikorsky had two sons and they was in Navy or you know, and they took us to the Prince of Wales, on Piccadilly, that was: Prince of Wales Theatre.
Int: The theatre, yes, yes. So you went there that evening. They took you for a night out.
MM: Yeah. The Prince of Wales. I remember that.
Int: And why were chosen to go to the evening meal?
MM: I don’t know!
Int: You hadn’t done something special you were being rewarded for?
MM: No, I don’t know!
Int: And what did your officers say, best behaviour and?
MM: No! It was free over there.
Int: That was free, okay, good.
MM: Yes, that was Prince of Wales.
Int: And when you went for this night, for the meal with General Sikorsky’s wife, and the sons, were you at Halton at that point?
MM: Yes.
Int: Oh, you were still at Halton.
MM: Yes, yes, at Halton.
Int: Again, very interesting, very interesting. Mmm. It creates more questions than answers.
MM: And Sikorsky, always, he was against the, you know, the Polish Army, and the army in Warsaw. He was against that, he said you not going to win with Stalin and because well, two hundred fifty, two hundred fifty thousand people been killed, or you know; destroyed Warsaw completely. But, and he was completely against that, [beep] Sikorsky.
Int: So he didn’t want to fight in Warsaw, he wanted to just -
MM: No, because you’re not going to win.
Int: Not going to win and it would just wipe out –
MM: And they just Ignored that, his advice.
Int: What, I haven’t asked you yet, but I should ask you. Where were you born? What’s your town or city you were born in, in Poland?
MM: The, in 1939 the Lvov which is [indecipherable] there was prisoner of war, er Russian soldiers taken to, from Lvov northward up to Podlesice and their massive [emphasis] horses and prisoners, you know. My mum, she gave some bread to me and I went over and throw it because I, well was not enough food probably, and their horses, massive [emphasis] horses, maybe some of them been probably killed in Kharkiv that time and when, when, because when they first er, I think they in the country, but first, because I used to live not far from railway station, and there was Polish policemen all, that took over by Ukraine and Jewish people, because of us welcoming the, Stalin in that way.
Int: Yes. So you’ve mentioned that you’ve been back to Poland since, did you say you’ve been back to Poland since it’s been free, since Poland was free? In ‘90 or ’91?
MM: Oh, yes.
Int: In 1990 ’91 was it, ‘91 when it became a Republic again, I can’t quite remember, with Lech Walesa?
MM: After that, yeah.
Int: So you haven’t been back to your town or your city to see it? No, you haven’t, no.
[Other]: Dad’s only been back to my mum’s side. [Indecipherable]
Int: Right.
[Other]: But can you tell Geoff where you were born dad? It’s what he asked you!
Int: Yes, I know, yeah.
MM: In the, Bokievka.
[Other]: Bokievka, which is on the Russian side.
Int: It’s on the Russian side then. Or is it still in Poland?
[Other]: It is now -
MM: No, that was, that time, when I born we was not Russian.
[Other]: It was Poland.
MM: No, it wasn’t, it wasn’t even part of Poland.
[Other]: What was it?
MM: Austria.
Int: Oh right.
[Other]: What? So when you were born dad, you were born in Austria?
MM: Austria. Because –
[Other]: Huh? But all the documents it says in Poland.
MM: Well, it’s Poland, yeah, it was Poland, but we been under the Austrian.
Int: Oh, was it the Austro-Hungarian?
MM: Hungarian, yeah.
Int: The Austro-Hungarian kind of part of it, it came up before, post, pre Second World War and all that, possibly.
[Other]: I think where dad now, the village, I think now is Lithuania isn’t it? Or Ukraine?
MM: [Indecipherable] is on the top.
Int: But the village, or the town where you were born -
[Other]: Is now –
Int: Which country is it in now [emphasis]?
[Other]: Lithuania.
Int: Is it Lithuania? Or is it still Poland?
[Other]: What is it then? Ukraine?
MM: Ukraine.
[Other]: Ukraine.
Int: It’s Ukraine, right, okay. So the borders have changed.
MM: Ukraine, Ukraine there.
Int: Okay. Is there anything else you can think of at the moment that you’d like to tell me about your time in the Polish Air Force at all? Anything you might have, because we’ve been talking about so many different subjects, and different times through your time in the Polish Air Force, did you, did you ever, here’s a question, at the end, when you’re finishing in the Polish Air Force, did you, did they allow you to keep any of your badges, or your hat, or anything at all?
MM: Yeah.
Int: Yeah? They allowed you to keep some things. That’s good.
MM: When the coat uniform, when demob only had one uniform, all the rest of them was RAF.
Int: So you kept them for a while. Did you, do you still have any of the badges or did you, have the badges all gone?
MM: I think probably got some buttons.
Int: From your original uniform. That’s very good.
MM: But er, well, we kept the uniform and everything.
Int: Well I hope that at some point in the near future, depending on how things go, we’re obviously hoping to open the Centre, maybe not this year, it might be next year now because we’re waiting for Heritage Lottery Fund, but then we’d love to invite you up, with your family, to come and see what we’re doing in Lincolnshire.
[Other]: Yeah? Do that dad.
Int: We are looking the big Memorial Garden, with the Polish Memorials in it, we’re hoping to open on the 26th of May this next year, with His Excellency the Polish Ambassador’s coming up and it’s going to be that kind of thing.
[Other]: Oh let us know.
Int: Once we’ve firmed everything up.
[Other]: Yeah, let us know.
Int: We will yes, we’ll let you know; it’s a Thursday. We thought that’s a little bit easier for people rather than weekends where it kind of clutters things up a bit, so we’re hoping to do all of that and with all the veterans we’ve found and managed to talk to, and what I have [emphasis] got for you, because you are an armourer, I’ve got some footage, it’s RAF footage, but it’s a training, it’s almost like a training video of how to arm up bombs and how to load and unload.
MM: [Indecipherable]
Int: We’ve got something like that already.
[Other]: What I’m trying to get in my head, is how you can train for four years.
Int: Oh I know, yes.
[Other]: When people dying.
Int: They’d be pushing them out onto the squadrons.
[Other]: They need the men. I just think my dad was told a certain thing to do but they were actually doing a different type of job, if that makes any sense.
Int: Yeah. Test and evaluation in some form, or testing new things, but they were training during that time. Yes, that’d be interesting to dig a little deeper into that. Yes.
[Other]: I can’t, I think dad’s been brainwashed by what they told him.
Int: Well yes, they would have just been doing more training, and more training, but maybe there’s a little bit more. It’ll be interesting to see, when the records come out, if, while you were at Halton, it says you were actually attached to a special section or squadron, you were doing test and evaluation, you know, for these four years, because it’s -
[Other]: So it’s Margaret we need to speak to. Do you have her phone number, dad?
Int: If not, I’ve got it. I can email it to you anyway.
MM: I know her!
[Other]: Well I’m sure you do know her, but we want to get your records. She can send you a copy of your records.
MM: We’re going to the [indecipherable] and she’ll be there.
[Other]: She’ll be there. And you can ask her. You want to ask her there, okay. All right then, we’ll go to –
MM: I’ve got her telephone number.
[Other]: He wants to that, okay.
Int: You might well have already have done this anyway, have you been down to the Sikorsky Institute and Museum? In London, down on King Street.
[Other]: Probably have.
Int: Because that’s the main museum for all kinds of things.
[Other]: Yeah, I’ve been there a very long time ago, but not recently.
Int: If you want to look at any of the archives I think you have to ring them up beforehand and book, to go at a certain time and then they’ll get things out. Once you see what Margaret’s got, it might be a case that they’ve got something to do with that particular Halton thing at, in the Sikorsky Museum. They may be able to bring out photographs, cause they’ve got tremendous, we haven’t even been down there yet to look at stuff to do with the Polish squadrons because we just haven’t had the time, but we know [emphasis] they’ve got film, they’ve got photographs; they’ve got a lot of stuff archived in the Sikorsky Institute.
MM: When I been in training the one, what’s his name, he just went you know, trained and was training and he went and shot down the German plane [laugh] and that Squadron Leader he was, I think he was Canadian, and he was very upset because he say you should stick with the, the, all together, anyhow, but later on he say from now on you are in operational; you done very well.
Int: So there was a Squadron Leader who shot somebody down and he was just there practicing or testing, and then they made him operational. Right.
[Other]: So dad, you were never operational then?
MM: Pardon?
[Other]: Did you shoot down any planes?
MM: No, I didn’t fly!
[Other]: No I know you didn’t fly but did you shoot any planes from ground force, from ground level?
MM: No, ground is different people was doing that, not shooting.
[Other]: So Halton was never attacked?
Int: Quite possibly so, yes, I would imagine they would have had some kind of air raids.
[Other]: So when Halton was attacked by Germans, where would you go? You know, like London, they used to bomb London.
Int: Did you have air raid shelters, under the ground? Were they in the basement of buildings? Or were they separate?
MM: We had air raid shelters, yeah.
Int: You had the shelters to go in.
[Other]: There was a, a drill went, you had to go to air raid, yes, but you didn’t actively shoot down planes.
MM: No, no, that was different people.
[Other]: I know but I’m asking, I’m just asking.
MM: No, there was, you’ve got, with the machine gun you can’t shoot them.
Int: No, exactly. they had to be the bigger, the anti-aircraft guns, yes. Oh, okay. Well, if we find out some more information, I’d like to come back maybe, at another time, for a, to have a chat with you again and we’ll put the camera on a second time. Because there might be some other, we might even find some documents or some photographs or something that explain the kind of job that you were doing a little bit more at Halton and it’ll be interesting to see if there’s a hidden story that perhaps you [emphasis] weren’t aware of, that they were getting you doing.
[Other]: I think they’ve got a [indecipherable] that he wasn’t aware of, that they [emphasis] were aware of.
Int: Because they, you were just, with your Polish colleagues, you were just doing training, but on maybe advanced weapons, and new weapons that were coming out which is why you said it was training because it was new stuff.
[Other]: But it wasn’t training.
MM: Yes, that’s precisely, there you go.
[Other]: But that wasn’t training.
Int: So you were doing testing on new [emphasis] types of weapons because you mentioned rockets didn’t you.
MM: Oh yeah, rockets.
Int: Now rockets didn’t come in until 1944 ’45 and they put them, not under the, not so much under Spitfires, but under Typhoon, the fighter aircraft and Mosquitos.
[Other]: But dad, did you put the bombs onto the planes?
MM: Well –
[Other]: Would you put the bombs under the planes?
MM: I didn’t put them, we just I didn’t do the training.
[Other]: Forget the training, did you physically put the bombs on to the planes?
MM: You don’t understand, that was training only.
[Other]: Well that’s what they told you.
Int: So when you actually did the training, as part of the training did they show you how to attach the rockets under the wings and things?
MM: Yes of course! We were doing that.
[Other]: But did you physically do that?
MM: That was not operational planes!
Int: Yes, I understand, because that was just training, so what they would do is, they would have a plane there, and you would practice putting rockets and things on to.
MM: You put the fuses to the bombs, everything.
Int: So the aircraft was just really for practicing your training, it wasn’t operational; I understand.
MM: Was not operational.
Int: So the aeroplane was almost part of your workshop. That you used it to practice putting the bombs and the rockets on.
MM: Yes, that’s right.
[Other]: But weren’t you kind of interested as to why you were constantly on training? For four years. You know, didn’t you think in your, amongst yourselves, we’re constantly training? Didn’t you think about it?
MM: But aeroplanes so complicated.
[Other]: Yeah, but dad no [sigh].
MM: Turrets and, you know, it’s not so simple you think can learn that in one day.
[Other]: But one year was a sixth of the Second World War! We were only at war for six years so four years is a big chunk.
Int: I think you were very lucky, because you were, it does sound like you were on experimental training for all the new weapons, but they told you that it was just training. But to have kept you there all that time I think you have to have been on a very special testing and evaluation.
MM: Like I prepare wings, then rockets, we have to calculate the pins which is going to shell that – it’s not simple.
[Other]: I’m not saying that dad, but dad.
Int: The timing mechanism on a rocket to when it explodes or was it just explode on impact or at a certain distance or height.
MM: Yes! And when the pilot pressed the button, they used to have a red, or the TNT burns and that shell, that pins.
Int: This, this is an experimental area. They were given rockets, but they’re obviously um, looking, your colleagues knew, they were obviously testing different types of fuse lengths and different fuse, not lengths but timers, for rockets and bombs to work in different ways, so some would be designed to explode above the ground, like an air burst, possibly, ground burst or some other. I think there was a lot of experimental work.
[Other]: So, did you think you were getting bombs to dad that were just straight off the, kind of, um tsk?
Int: I don’t think so much production, these weren’t production, these were, I think what you had Michael was pre-production.
MM: Pre-production. Yes, that makes sense.
Int: It was experimental. People who were coming up with the ideas, bit like Barnes Wallis did with the Bouncing Bomb, and you would have scientists that were going: I want to make this and then your bunch of armourers would be there say, working out how they can make that work.
[Other]: This pre-production. So really they weren’t training, they were testers. But they were told training.
Int: But it was classed as probably training, but they were testing different fuses and different things to work out what would work.
[Other]: Before they went into production.
Int: Possibly so, I think.
[Other]: Right, okay. I think, yes.
Int: I think that’s possibly, just listening to what you’ve told us.
MM: That’s right. Definitely
Int: So I think that’s a very important job, very important. Probably more important than you realised at the time.
[Other]: Yes. So basically you were testing all the prototypes and once you’d tried, agreed. So who would sign it off then? Who was it actually, this is gonna work? Who would sign it off, your chief commander? Who was your top man? Wing Commander, or?
MM: Yeah, would be the Wing Commander was. [Beep]
[Other]: Would have to sign it off.
Int: It would be head of that section probably.
[Other]: Who was head of sections, dad?
Int: Who was in charge of your training area? Would probably have been an officer I presume.
[Other]: Do you remember?
MM: Yes, that was er –
Int: Or a Warrant Officer maybe.
[Other]: So he was probably getting information from other agencies, or other.
Int: Yes, very interesting.
MM: That’s, that’s right.
[Other]: Do you remember the name of your head of training?
MM: Um, just a moment, I try to.
[Other]: Cause I think now, you’ve got your scientists, doing your prototype, next thing.
Int: Coming down to Halton, they’re going: right, here’s the basic idea, let’s see how we can make this work.
[Other]: These guys, let’s, and then -
Int: Look at existing –
[Other]: And then someone signs it off.
Int: Bombs and rockets they’ve got, and whether they needed modifying from the scientists and then they do the armourers part of putting the whole thing together and making it work from an armourer’s point of view. And [emphasis] how do you then fix that onto the underside of the wings or into the bomb bays, because obviously the, all the connections for the bombs and the -
MM: Got some of them, rockets, they’re shooting that, they stick to the tank and exploded.
Int: Yes. There you go. So to pierce armour, any, any good project, these days projectiles will go through some serious armour and then they explode inside the tank. So the first charge blows the hole in the tank, the second charge blows inside the tank.
[Other]: So dad, when you were doing all this, you were, you’re risking your life, every time!
MM: No, I’m testing.
Int: Probably not so much cause it was in a research.
MM: Research and test.
Int: In a research kind of environment so it would be like workshop, laboratory, research and they were working out how to, so that the rockets that were fired – cause they were right at the end of the war – they’d come off fighter planes that shoot, basic, very basic rockets at the end of the forties, but you could hit ground targets, so if you got tanks going across an open ground or something, or something like that, then obviously the fighter planes could get in and then fire the rockets to hit the tanks. But as you were saying, if it hits the outside of the thing and sticks to it, so it’s not going to bounce off, and then it explodes.
MM: Otherwise it can slide that, you know.
Int: There you go there’s a very interesting little piece of information there. That, and that’s something you’ve now remembered, getting something so they’d hit the target, and stick on it, and then explode. Rather than hitting the target and bouncing off.
MM: Bounced, yes.
Int: So there we are.
[Other]: Right. So that’s where your engineering, cause dad ended up being a production engineer, so he used to.
MM: That, you had the people was coming from London and was going teach us, you know.
Int: Yeah. It’s starting to come together now! We’re understanding a little bit more about what you actually did.
[Other]: Right! Yes.
Int: So it was probably -
MM: How to drop the bombs as well.
Int: Yes.
MM: You know, was teaching everything, you know.
Int: Which does explain perhaps why –
[Other]: You weren’t operational, non-operational.
Int: And you didn’t go up through the ranks because you were staying at that experimental, although you think they might have given you another rank or two for a little bit more pay, for the job you were doing! But maybe because that was, it was a shorter time and during the war.
[Other]: Four years is a long time in the war! That’s eighty percent out of four years.
Int: We can, the records, the main records for what happened at Halton research are probably out in the public domain now if you know where to find them, just to find out, test and evaluation centre that would have been there, or a small workshops as part of the armourers. And to be honest, if you’ve got the armourers there, the people that taught the armourers will be more experienced people anyway, so then they’d use some of those instructors, probably attached to, with your father, they’d be like the managers, the site managers, or the supervisors looking after the team of younger workers that were doing the test and evaluation on things.
[Other]: But my feeling is there’s a lot going on behind the scenes here.
Int: Oh, probably so, yeah. I mean that happened through the whole of the Second World War. Not just the Air Ministry, but in the Air Ministry would, there would have been a lot of small, trying new things, test and evaluation. I mean nobody had heard about the bouncing bomb, had they, and that just, that was all built.
[Joanne] Did you test the bouncing ball dad?
MM: No.
[Other]: Did you do anything with nuclear war? That nuclear?
Int: No.
MM: No. They was testing in Wales that, yeah.
Int: Yes, I mean the bouncing bomb was all done down at um, Teddington, Teddington Lock, the big old, the big water tanks that they had down there, in towards London. I don’t know what, I don’t know where all the nuclear stuff was done.
[Other]: Wales, dad said it was Wales.
Int: Wales.
MM: Wales, that was in Wales.
Int: Probably in and around the old quarries and things like that where you have low population.
MM: They was doing some in Wales, testing.
[Other]: Oh, very interesting, I didn’t know this.
Int: There we are. It’s interesting sometimes, when things, as people relax a little bit when we have the conversations, little things do tend to come out, so, and the nice thing is we’ve captured it all now so we can put it on to a disc so that if you need to look back and remember points that perhaps you’ll forget about, and then you think ‘oh yes, I said that’, so, and that’s, so it’ll help Joanne as well cause if you get the bug and start doing a bit of research we’ve got at least some ground area now.
[Other]: So, in your testing evaluation school, how many Polish people were there? Sixty, seventy?
MM: No, that was, there was I think six, was five hundred.
[Other]: Five hundred?
MM: But different sections!
[Other]: Yeah, but in your [emphasis] section?
MM: In my section er -
[Other]: Do you remember dad?
MM: No. In my section was [pause].
Int: Five hundred would have been probably for the whole camp. With the standard training for armourers in different points, but then -
[Other]: I can’t believe that dad.
MM: Thirty or forty.
[Other]: Thirty, so it’s quite a small group.
Int: Small group, concentrate on certain things.
[Other]: Concentrate, yeah.
MM: Thirty or forty there was, yeah.
[Other]: And all the other groups, you knew all the other groups, yeah?
MM: Well one actually, he was instructor, he went to Argentina and I think he passed away long time ago.
[Other]: So, so the friends that you see at your monthly Polish Air Force lunch, they used to be in Northolt, Halton, with you, yes? No? Yes?
Int: The people that you have lunch with, each month, your friends now [emphasis] when you see them each month now.
[Other]: They were at Halton.
Int: Are they the people from Halton, or are they just Polish Air Force people that you’ve met since?
MM: No, they’re probably different.
Int: From different things, right. Okay
MM: You know, from different.
Int: Well thank you very, very much.
MM: Not so many left now [laugh].
[Other]: Very interesting.
Int: No! Well thank you very, very much Michael, find where the turn off switch is.
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Interview with Mieczyslaw Maryszczak
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An account of the resource
Mieczyslaw Maryszczak was born in Bokyivka, Ukraine and served in the Polish Army and then the Polish Air Force. An early memory of the war is throwing bread to starving Russian prisoners being marched from Lviv to Podlesice. At seventeen he was in the Polish Army testing repaired tanks in Gaza. After the Allied victory at Alamein he went to Egypt where he joined the Polish Air Force, sailing via South Africa to Liverpool to train at RAF Halton as an armourer.
At RAF Halton he met fellow Poles from 303 Squadron who were there for three months training. He, however, was there for four years and received training very good on all types of armament and explosives, possibly in the context of weapon research and development.
He was there on VE Day but says the Poles didn't celebrate because of the Yalta agreement. He also recalls how, when some Russians visited, they were locked in a workshop out of the way. He recalls the barrack rooms and how they cheated the midnight bed checks when some were still out dancing in Aylesbury. He also says that the food was cooked by Italian prisoners and was very good.
In 1946 Michael went to RAF Cammeringham pending demobilisation. He was then detached to 48 Maintenance Unit at Wrexham, where he received and checked aircraft guns, before going to RAF Framlingham to await resettlement or repatriation.
Some Polish airmen returned to Poland but Mieczyslaw, by then know as Michael, went to London for resettlement. He claimed that trade unions didn't want the Poles and tried to send them into the mines and foundries but he refused and found a job making spectacles. He met his wife, who is also Polish, in 1960.
In London Michael attended social events and dinners at the Polish Club. He was awarded the Polish Freedom Medal in about 1990 or 1991.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:31:02 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SRAFIngham19410620v070001-Audio
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Geoff Burton
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Andy Fitter
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-05-08
1946
1947
1948
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Gaza Strip
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
England--Lincoln
England--London
England--Wolverhampton
Middle East--Palestine
Wales
Wales--Wrexham
Ukraine
Poland
Poland--Kraków
303 Squadron
demobilisation
ground crew
ground personnel
military living conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
RAF Cosford
RAF Framlingham
RAF Halton
RAF Ingham
RAF Wrexham
recruitment
shelter
training
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Green, Langford W
Bill Green
Joe Green
L W Green
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Langford William Green (1923 - 2022, 2236292 Royal Air Force), his logbook, service documents and photographs. After training, Langford Green served as an air gunner with 218 Squadron at RAF Chedburgh. He flew 18 operations and several Operation Manna supply drops to Dutch civilians.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Langford Green and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, these items are available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Green, LW
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Langford Green’s flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners, flight engineers
Description
An account of the resource
Royal Air Force navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers flying log book for L W Green, air gunner, covering the period from 16 June 1944 to 8 July 1945. Detailing training, scores on gunnery course, and operations flown and post war flying. He was stationed at RAF Bishops Court, RAF Peplow, RAF Sandtoft, RAF Ingham and RAF Chedburgh. Aircraft flown in were Anson, Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster. He flew 18 operations with 218 Squadron, 11 Daylight and 7 Night. 3 Operation Manna to The Hague and Rotterdam and 6 Operation Exodus to Juvincourt. Targets were, Monchengladbach, Weisbaden, Dortmund, Wanne-Eickel, Dresden, Chemnitz, Gelsenkirchen, Datteln, Hallendorf, Wurzburg and Kiel.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the University of Lincoln.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LGreenLW2236292v1
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Northern Ireland
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Germany--Wanne-Eickel
Germany--Wiesbaden
Germany--Würzburg
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Northern Ireland--Down (County)
Netherlands--Hague
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Juvincourt-et-Damary
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-03
1945-02-07
1945-02-13
1945-02-14
1945-02-15
1945-02-20
1945-02-21
1945-02-22
1945-02-25
1945-02-26
1945-03-09
1945-03-10
1945-03-12
1945-03-14
1945-03-19
1945-03-29
1945-04-04
1945-04-05
1945-04-09
1945-04-10
1945-04-29
1945-05-05
1945-05-07
1945-05-11
1945-05-12
1945-05-14
1945-05-17
1945-05-23
1945-05-24
1945-06-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
218 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Cook’s tour
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bishops Court
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Ingham
RAF Peplow
RAF Sandtoft
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1878/35247/PSoltysiakB17060002.1.jpg
55a552ccd7bf08635d9a63c27692cf91
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Soltysiak, Bronislaw
B Soltysiak
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Soltysiak, B
Description
An account of the resource
230 items. The collection concerns Sergeant Bronislaw Soltysiak (1916 - 1987, 781032 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book documents, brevet, button and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 305 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Malcom Soltysiak and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Large group of airmen in front of a Wellington
Description
An account of the resource
A group of airmen wearing battledress or tunics with side or peaked caps, sitting and standing in four rows in front of a Wellington. The squadron's mascot dog, Ciapek, is standing on top of front turret. Submitted with caption '305 Sq at Ingham Lincs'.<br /><br /><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW243310354 BCX0">This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No </span><span class="ContextualSpellingAndGrammarError SCXW243310354 BCX0">better quality</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW243310354 BCX0"> copies are available.</span>
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PSoltysiakB17060002
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
305 Squadron
aircrew
animal
RAF Ingham
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/660/9260/EGortonHGortonLCM440912.2.pdf
4a9e8d536260ccd34a70435b7b296d87
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gorton, Harold
Description
An account of the resource
136 items. The collection concerns Squadron Leader Harold Gorton (1914 - 1944, 120984, Royal Air Force) and contains eight photographs and 126 letters to his wife and family. Harold Gorton studied at Oxford, and throughout his time in the RAF he continued studying law. He completed a tour of operations as a pilot in 1941 and was then posted as an instructor to RAF Cark. He returned to operations with 49 Squadron stationed at RAF Fulbeck in 1944. He was killed 11/12 November 1944 during an operation to Harburg.<br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Mair Gorton and Ian Gorton, and catalogued by Barry Hunter. <br /><br />Additional information on Harold Gorton is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/108964/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Gorton, H
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[Royal Air Force crest]
S/Ldr. H. Gorton
OFFICERS’ MESS,
R.A.F. STATION,
[deleted] FISKERTON [/deleted] [inserted] Ingham [/inserted]
Nr. LINCOLN.
Tuesday 12/9/44
Dearest,
I was hoping to be able to write to you last night when I arrived, but couldn’t manage it, so I’ll send you a report of my activities now.
The journey was no trouble – except that I had to keep asking the way through B’ham – but I missed you very much, as it was no fun at all to drive without you sitting beside me. I ate my sandwiches while I was going along & arrived at Spalford at 5.25, [deleted] f [/deleted] six hours ten minutes for a journey of 164 miles. Incidentally, George Lane offered to let me have an extra gallon any time I wanted it!
[page break]
2.
Mrs. Gibson made tea for me & then I set about my various jobs. I paid her £4-4..0 (rather a wrench, that!) & also gave her the tomatoes & bacon that had come from the grocer, as they were the things likely to spoil.
I went & had a chat with the milkman (he hadn’t brought any milk, but I didn’t remind him of that). I told him that Mrs. Gibson would let him know when he was to call again, & then we had a chat about horses. I said I wanted him to teach me how to ride when I had a bit of spare time! He then explained to me in detail how to take up hunting & make it pay, & he also told me what a tonic it was for him if he spent some time with people of good breeding (i.e. the hunting
[page break]
3
crowd). I forbore to point out to him that most of the people who hunted nowadays were nouveaux riches, & just agreed with him.
I went over to Trevor’s with the petrol cans & found he had quite a posse of R.A.F. blokes working for him – two decorating the living room & one digging the garden. There may have been more, but I didn’t see them. I spoke to the decorators & they said Trevor had already arranged for them to do our house when they have finished the present job.
I forgot to say that the two mirrors arrived unscratched & the rest of the crocks as well
[page break]
4
I think, but I hadn’t time to examine them.
I also saw Mrs Inch Smith. She is still hopeful about getting a house, but otherwise will stay until the 30th. A few of the tomatoes have turned & I have arranged for her to sell them to Margetson for us each week when he comes; the first time will be on Friday. There was a bit of a frost last night so I am rather anxious about them.
I was telling her how much stuff we had brought up already so she suggested that we park some of it in that lumber room of hers. It is already cleared out as she has been getting rid of her junk, so I think I will move some of the things there, as I really don’t think you could live
[page break]
5
in the downstairs room as it is at present.
The only correspondence waiting for me was the Somerset application form (which I shall fill up later tonight), & a letter from the Ministry of Fuel with regard to your shopping petrol. Apparently it is necessary to fill up another form for that, so I am going to do it as best I can & send it off. There was also a book from Smith’s – A Cornish Childhood, by A.L. Rowse. I’ll read it & then let you have it.
This Petrol form is Dom/1, & is a supplement to R(MS) application form.
[circled 1] Name of nearest place for getting essential foodstuffs – North Scarle.
[circled 2] Walking distance (nearest 1/4 ml). 2 miles
[page break]
6
[circled 3] Available public transport – None.
[circled 5] What goods are delivered by tradesmen & how many times per week. Meat & groceries – Once a week.
[circled 6] State whether you are the householder
– Yes
[circled 7] Number of permanent residents –
One.
[circled 8] Any special circumstances which necessitate the use of a private motor vehicle.
This is where I put out our main case – that it is essential to go to Newark or Lincoln at least once a week as there are so many things that must be bought, apart from rationed goods.
I hope the above meets with your approval. It might be as well if you kept this page so that we can put the same answers down next time.
(Pause while I eat an apple.
[page break]
7
Tell your mother I’ve already eaten the pears).
All the arrangements I’ve described above naturally took some time, so I had to cut out the idea of taking my washing to Fiskerton, & arrived here at 8.30. I would have written to you last night, but when I reached my room, I found that there was no light, as the current had been cut off.
We had lectures all day until 5.0 p.m. & then I got in the car & drove to Scampton. I was lucky in finding a tailor who would do some overtime on my tunic for me; he charged me 5/- on each tunic, but
[page break]
8
of course, it’s quite a big job, & as far as I’m concerned, well worth it. While he was doing my tunic I went to Fiskerton to collect soap & towel, which I hadn’t brought with me; my dressing gown & slippers are still at Spalford, but I’ll collect them on Thursday.
All my love, darling. I hope you are feeling rested now.
Harold.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Harold Gorton to his wife
Description
An account of the resource
He writes of a journey through Birmingham and of domestic arrangements.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harold Gorton
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-09-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Eight handwritten sheets
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EGortonHGortonLCM440912
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Birmingham
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-09
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tricia Marshall
aircrew
home front
military living conditions
military service conditions
pilot
RAF Fiskerton
RAF Ingham
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1879/34816/AClarkM[Date]-01.mp3
ac2d58502f8c58c8e16914a48274d002
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clark, Marion
Clarke, Marion
M Clark
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Clark, M
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. The collection concerns Leading Aircraftswoman Marion Clark (Royal Air Force) and contains an audio recording and photographs. She served as a driver in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Hemswell and RAF Ingham.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Dorothy Cole and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marion Clark Interview
Description
An account of the resource
Marion Clark grew up in Lincolnshire and served as driver at RAF Hemswell and RAF Ingham. She discusses her role as a driver and life on a bomber station.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:15:12 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AClarkM[Date]-01
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending OH transcription
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013
199 Squadron
300 Squadron
301 Squadron
Air Transport Auxiliary
crash
FIDO
ground personnel
Lancaster
medical officer
military living conditions
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
superstition
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2092/34803/SRAFIngham19410620v060001-Audio.1.mp3
82e9cb8ce17b90dcac1201367cf6a3ee
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Ingham Heritage Group. Clarke, Marion
Clark, Marion
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Marion Clark and four photographs.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RAF Ingham
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MC: The American President’s daughters, and I used to have to go and get his car and take it to be serviced and whatnot.
Int: So he was a Polish prince then was he?
MC: Prince, yes, Prince Razduvu, I don’t know if I’m pronouncing quite right but yes, and he was there, cause he spoke -
Int: So he was a pilot then was he?
MC: I’m not sure, he was a commander, he had, in charge of one of the squadrons, and he married the American President’s, one of the daughters.
Int: Oh crikey!
MC: I used to go and get his car and do you know, it reeked of cigarettes, oh it was dreadful inside! [Laugh] Oh yes.
Int: So Marion, obviously as we have a chat I’ll ask you a few questions, but obviously you, you remember quite clearly all the you know, the various incidents and things that happened there. I’m hoping that from -
MC: In fact one of the things and I, the standard van that I was driving at the time was going round the flights, caught fire under the nose of one of these bombers that was loaded up for the night’s mission! [Laugh] People, the men round the aircraft, cause there was always someone fiddling around and putting it through its paces and whatnot, they threw their jackets on it, on the engine.
Int: This was your engine of your vehicle?
MC: Yes, of my vehicle, I was sitting in it and you know, it caught fire! And it was under the nose of this bomber loaded with bombs, [laugh] so there was great consternation and throwing of coats and things. Yes.
Int: Was Hemswell your first, your first posting?
MC: Yes, it was, yes, well you know you have to go to a Training Depot.
Int: Yes, to do your training.
MC: Norwich or somewhere, and then I was posted, they asked you where you’d like to go, which county, and they said oh, don’t put where you really want to go because you won’t get there, you know, they’ll cross it out. Well I thought that’s stupid, I’ll put Lincolnshire, there’s plenty of aerodromes there and I got to Hemswell.
Int: To Hemswell. Did you, when you got there, had you already got your uniform?
MC: No, I think it was delivered to, to me there, you know, everything. I was a volunteer, I wasn’t, you know, subjected to regulation that makes you go.
Int: Conscription or anything like that.
MC: I wore my VR very proudly!
Int: Oh right! So you got your VR.
MC: Volunteer.
Int: Even though you were, it was during the war years, you were still classed as a volunteer if you, rather then civilian conscription.
MC: Well I don’t know what sort of difference it made, whether it made a difference to the uniform, because I thought somehow it was a nicer cloth, my uniform, you know, smoother cloth, so I don’t know whether that was why I got it, I don’t know.
Int: Did you always decide you wanted to be, you know, an MT driver or did you try to get in to a different trade?
MC: No! They tried to, when I went for my first interview, to get me to go to signals.
Int: Oh right.
MC: Yes, they tried to push me to signals and I thought no, I want to be outside, being a country girl.
Int: Yes. Where were you actually born then? Where were you born?
MC: I was born in Leeds actually, in Yorkshire.
Int: Oh right. But outside Leeds when you say you were a country girl.
MC: And then my father’s parents farmed at Swayfield, I don’t know whether you know it do you? No, and they farmed there and that’s how I suppose, and my mother was brought up at Little Bytham which is a little village, not far away.
Int: So the idea of being out in the open in the fresh air suited you really well.
MC: Yes, I didn’t want to be cooped up, and I couldn’t, you know, if you’re pushing those things around like they do in signals and your friend had got killed or was shot down, I thought it must have been too awful.
Int: But obviously your job, obviously, did you have different jobs within the driving, within the MT Section?
MC: You had to be able to drive anything: tractors, crew buses, anything.
Int: Right, so even the bigger lorries they had?
MC: Oh yes, one of my worst moments was down, I was down Gainsborough with this six-wheeled vehicle and I had to back it alongside the canal where there was a sheer drop into the River Trent so I was very nervous about that one!
Int: Did you have to have somebody marshalling you back, somebody standing there?
MC: Yes, yes I did! [Laughter]
Int: I’m not surprised.
MC: I mean, well, one of the WAAF drivers down near London, Richmond way I think, or somewhere down there, actually did drown; she went into the river in her motor car.
Int: Really, oh.
MC: So I got this in, at the back of my mind I think [laugh] and I got a six wheel lorry.
Int: Did you, when you, especially at Hemswell first of all, was it, did you always work like eight in the morning till kind of like tea time or did you work evenings and nights and things?
MC: That’s an interesting thing, we used to do a sort of day duty for about two weeks and then we had to do a night duty and the hours there were so long, you went on at lunchtime, worked all through the afternoon and all through the night, and coming off you did it the opposite way round, was hours and hours. They wouldn’t to do it today, would they. I’d gone to sleep at the wheel driving down to Gainsborough to get the morning mail, [laugh] I bumped over the side of the road and thought oh!
Int: And woke up! Did most of your driving just take place on the base though did it, at Hemswell?
MC: A lot of it, oh yes.
Int: Little kind of –
MC: Yes, I went to Waddington and different aerodromes round about. Swinderby was a bomb dump and so you went there if you were collecting.
Int: Oh, was it really? Oh that’s interesting.
MC: Oh yes, bomb dump there, at Swinderby.
Int: And obviously there was the big bomb dump over at Faldingworth as well, wasn’t there.
MC: Yes. And there was one outside Castle Bytham actually, Stockhenhall Wood.
Int: Right. But there would have been a bomb dump on Hemswell obviously.
MC: Oh yes, the bombs were down at the side, yes.
Int: So did you do that? Because I have a, I’ll show you a picture later, which I’ve got, which shows a WAAF riding one of the tractors pulling the bomb trailer where you had perhaps five, six, seven trollies.
MC: Oh yes, they used these sort of trailers, they used to take them out by tractor and take them round to the different dispersals where the aircraft were.
Int: And that was one of your jobs as well, was it?
MC: No, I never did that, no.
Int: Oh right.
MC: I never pulled the bombs, it was a man usually.
Int: Oh right, okay, probably through the armourers. Right.
MC: Yes, yes, exactly.
Int: So you did mention in your earlier interview that obviously one of your jobs that you had to do was to pick the crews up.
MC: Oh yes.
Int: Cause obviously most of it was night bombing and looking at the er, the flying records from Ingham in particular, they often took off at either ten or eleven in the evening and got then got back at about three or four in the morning depending on how long the raid was.
MC: Oh yes. Yes, and there were no heaters in the vehicles!
Int: Really! Not even in the cab?
MC: No, when you got out of the cab, put your feet to the ground it really hurt; we were so cold! No, the only thing was, when we got the Bedford QL lorry, the engine was inside and so it was a little bit warmer.
Int: Gave off a little more warmth.
MC: There was no heaters in vehicles, no, in fact sometimes there were no windows in the vehicles.
Int: Did they allow you to wear trousers instead of skirts then, to keep you warm, or not?
MC: Oh yes, I got it trousers, and yes, oh no, it was very primitive. Fancy having no heaters, you know, in the winter time when it was so cold. Oh, poor little things, we were frozen.
Int: Exactly, living, living as I do in up that part of the country!
MC: And washing in cold water at Ingham, in the morning!
Int: Really!
MC: Yes!
Int: Well that was what I was going to ask you about now, obviously you went to Ingham just for one stretch, didn’t you.
MC: Yes, I can’t remember, but it was months I think, possibly about nine months or about a year, something like that.
Int: So I wonder if that, if it was 1942 or 1943?
MC: Oh, I was there in ’42.
Int: So it would probably be ’42 then maybe, because they went, 300 -
MC: When I say I was there, I was at Hemswell.
Int: But you used to come, used to –
MC: But I went to Ingham, yes.
Int: Right. Did you actually, so you didn’t actually live at any point, you didn’t live at Ingham, and on the base.
MC: Oh, yes I did. Oh yes, I lived there. We lived in nissen huts, did I not tell you?
Int: Right. You did, you mentioned that.
MC: Put pigs in there in Norfolk, and the condensation used to drop from the sort of tin plate or whatever, and it used to freeze on your blanket! When you woke up in the morning those little icicles on the cloth.
Int: I’ve seen some pictures where you had a like a little pot bellied stove in the middle of the room with all the beds round the side Is that how it was for you cause I’m only guessing?
MC: Yes, oh yes, and if you weren’t there when they brought the coal or coke or whatever it was they were putting in the things, if you weren’t there you just didn’t get any and so you probably were a few days without any fuel. You see being MT you’re often out, not on the station, when the coals arrived and everyone rushed with buckets and boxes and of course you were probably sitting in a vehicle round Lincoln somewhere.
Int: Was, was your accommodation, was it a big room with lots of beds or did you have small rooms?
Mc: At Ingham they were sort of, I should think, probably four, five or six people in one of these nissen huts.
Int: Right, okay.
MC: It was better at Hemswell because you had a sort of construction with a corridor down the middle and rooms off each side and there were two WAAFs in each room, that was better – and hot water. [Chuckle] I mean you had to wash your smalls and things you see.
Int: Of course yes, cause you wouldn’t have had a laundry or anything, no! So how did you get everything dry, that’s?
MC: I know, it was a nightmare!
Int: Were there lots of little clothes lines around the um, around the big heater or boiler?
MC: You did the best you could.
Int: Best you could. My goodness me.
MC: I wouldn’t like to go through that part of it again.
Int: No, and obviously you had, when you were at, when you were working at Ingham, you had your meals in the airmen’s mess. Now this is the building that we are obviously, we’re renovating at the moment.
MC: Well, I’ll tell you what.
Int: What do you remember of that?
MC: Our little, where the living quarters were, and where we slept, was quite a long way away away from the station, and you know, we didn’t bother with breakfast because it was such a thing getting up and getting washed and everything and we had, when the NAAFI van came round at ten o’clock, we had hot scones and er, coffee and things like that which was our breakfast really. We just stood up eating these lovely warm scones [chuckle] and having a hot sweet drink, you know.
Int: Was that something that was provided or did you have to actually pay for that at the NAAFI van?
MC: We had to pay for that, yes, and do you know much we got a week?
Int: Oh go on then, this would be like your wages would it? Yes, go one then.
MC: Ten shillings.
Int: Ten shillings!
MC: Ten shillings.
Int: But what would ten shillings have bought you in those days, per week?
MC: Well, we had to get brasso for the buttons, buy soap, buy shampoos for your hair, buy newspapers, buy your mugs of tea in the NAAFI, buy your bus fare home, you know; I mean it soon disappeared. And of course we were ultra smart, we were, at Hemswell. We had lisle stockings which were provided by the Air Force, they were much finer, you know, and several things like that. What else did we buy? Well I bought Van Heusen collars because they were smarter and stiffer and better than the ones provided, and of course we had, we bought our best shoes because they weren’t clodhoppers like those provided, and if you wanted to go to a dance or some function, you wanted your best shoes on.
Int: Best shoes.
MC: I had a Squadron Leader’s wife used to borrow mine if she was going dancing, Spottiswood, and I think he came to Cranwell not very long ago, because there was something in the local newspaper and I thought well I don’t think there could be, I think he’s Wing Commander now, I don’t think there could be two of them like that, and his wife was a great friend of mine, but anyway he got her posted to be near him, so I had to say goodbye to her.
Int: Ah, that’s nice, isn’t it, when you could actually provide. So when you went to the dances did you, did you wear a nice dress?
MC: Oh yes, I had a best uniform.
Int: Oh, so you still had to go to the dances in uniform? You couldn’t go in what you think of as civvies, a nice colourful dress then.
MC: No. Do you know, that’s one of the things, when the war was over, that I most wanted, a lovely summer dresses made of pure cotton.
Int: That wasn’t uniform.
MC: You couldn’t get it during the war.
Int: So when you were, when you were at Ingham then, and obviously you’ve mentioned about your accommodation was quite a way up from the station.
MC: Oh yes. And it was shielded by trees and I thought well that’s because they wanted, any daytime raids, they wanted to sort of have a, there were quite a few trees round where the WAAF quarters were, and I thought it was you know, just shielding it from the enemy.
Int: Ah, yes. Because obviously you were fairly near to Fillingham Castle as well, weren’t you.
MC: Yes, yes.
Int: That was just, was the other side of the trees.
MC: I have lovely memories of that because when I organised a dance for the MT Section and I was anxious to have flyers everywhere and they let us go for the whole day, several friends of mine, some from the MT, and we collected daffodils and made the place all beautiful, for the dance.
Int: Ahh. If you, if you get a chance, at some point, perhaps later in the summer, I don’t know whether your sister, does your sister drive at all?
MC: Yes.
Int: It would be lovely to –
MC: I drive!
Int: Oh, do you.
MC: My car’s sitting there, and it’s taxed and insured and everything but I’ve got a cataract coming in my left eye so they won’t allow me to drive.
Int: So it’s, well maybe if your sister, maybe later in the summer, cause I’m away, we’d love you to, like to invite you up there, not only from your benefit to see what’s there now, and there are still a couple of the old WAAF nissen huts there.
MC: Oh lovely!
Int: They’re in poor condition I must say.
MC: [Laugh] I’m not surprised!
Int: Because the farmer uses them now, the rest, unfortunately all the rest of the huts have gone. Were they, were all the WAAF huts, were they all metal or were there some wooden ones as well?
MC: Oh no, they were metal, like the ones in Norfolk they put the pigs in!
Int: In that case they’ve all gone bar two of them, but the airmens’ mess is still there and that’s obviously, you had the two dining rooms either side and the kitchen in the middle and you used to come up to the servery basically, and get your food. Do you have any kind of, do you have any recollections? You must have had some lunch.
MC: I think where the food was served was in the main station, wasn’t it, the main part of the station, that’s why we had such a long walk for breakfast.
Int: Yes, it’s just to the north of the actual airfield, but it’s between where you were billeted, and the actual airfield, it’s a bit to the north, it certainly is the only airmens’ mess that was there so I think that probably is the building but it’s across several fields to get from where you were sleeping.
MC: Well it was quite a distance, that’s why we didn’t bother in the end.
Int: Bother with breakfast, no.
MC: We went to the NAAFI van that came at half past ten, with everything warm and nice.
Int: Where was your erm, at Ingham, where was the MT yard or where you had all your vehicles at Ingham? Can you?
MC: Well [sigh] there was the main entrance, a sort of gateway, you know, and then I think it was on the right hand side. I think it was on the right hand side. I can remember that entrance going in through the, where they used to lift up the gate and things but I can’t remember which side it was on. No. 199 Squadron I can remember quite well being there. They had a lot of bicycles round the place, you know, used to cycle from one place to another.
Int: They were certainly there from February to June of 1943, so that kind of, that pins the time.
MC: Well I went to Hemswell in ’42.
Int: Right, and obviously 300 Squadron.
MC: And then from Hemswell I only was a short time at Ingham, and then I went back to Hemswell again.
Int: Right, but the fact that you remember 199 Squadron means you must have been going to Ingham between February and June of 1940 because that’s the only time they were at Ingham, between that period.
MC: Yes, I can remember that, yes.
Int: So the Poles weren’t actually at Ingham at that point, it was just purely 199.
MC: It seems to me they came later.
Int: Right.
MC: That’s what I think. But I can remember 199 Squadron, and we had a Medical Officer, and if they were going on a long mission, a ten hour, he used to go round to each aircraft and give the men pills which would keep them awake because it was a long mission. And there was a pub backing on to the perimeter of the airfield. Did you know that?
Int: The Windmill pub? Was it call the Windmill pub?
MC: When we, when they had all gone, when we had all done, the medical officer and I used to nip in to the back of the pub when the back of the pub used to come right up to the perimeter. Have a quick drink. [Laugh]
Int: Did you, um, I think you were saying before that you used to, one of your jobs, fortunately or unfortunately, was to go and collect the crews before they flew, and take them.
MC: Yes it was, most of the time, yes.
Int: Can you tell me a little bit about that?
MC: Only about six of us used to do the crew duty and I was one of them and then they had two others, yes. One was a very pretty girl, blonde and everything, but in the end some of the crews wouldn’t go, didn’t want her taking them out, because they thought she was unlucky; she lost such a lot of crews that never came back.
Int: Oh dear.
MC: But I never had that problem, you know, so they used to come and go out with me. [Chuckle]
Int: So what, can you talk me through what used to happen then, from you, for you picking them up, cause obviously you picked them up, there must have been set routines that they did and set places they had to go to.
MC: Oh yes, we had to go round the perimeter to the dispersal and you know, pick them up when they came in. Of course we were in, sitting underneath the control tower, or up in the Control Tower sometimes, and then when they were calling up permission to land and you know, and wanting any news about the weather or runway or anything, we then used to set in motion, we’d to go scampering downstairs and go out and pick them up, so overjoyed to see them back again. There was only one thing, when the Poles came they used to relieve themselves when they got out of the aircraft and I’d be sitting there with my lights on and they used to come round the front so I used pick up my book and pretend I was reading. [Laughter] English people didn’t do that, it was only the Poles. Strange that, wasn’t it.
Int: How did you know, because at Ingham there were about thirty different aircraft dispersals, you know, what we call the frying pans, the concrete pan where each of the, we’ve looked on maps and things and we can’t see any numbering system or letters. How did you know what, in those days was there a different number for each kind of aircraft dispersal, or was it a letter, or something?
MC: Oh yes, they all knew their dispersal because they’d been working, and the engineers would be working on during the day and they had the same crew sort of in six months time, still working.
Int: I was just wondering from your point of view when you came down from air traffic control to drive to the dispersal, did air traffic, did they have a numbering system so you know, you’re going to dispersal number twenty three or seventeen or something?
MC: No, they didn’t have a number, not that I’m aware of.
Int: Not at all, no. Just pointed you, he’s going over to that one, or you just watched to see.
MC: Yes, yes. Well you knew by the name of the crew.
Int: Ah right, okay.
MC: You see, you knew where you were going because unless something happened they usually flew the same aircraft, so they you know, A for Able. Do you know, one of the funniest things, they had a large Humber Snipe, they were beautiful motor car, and this was all yellow and I had to drive out.
Int: Yellow!
MC: Drive round the dispersal, come out again and the aircraft was following me all the time, I was taking them out to the dispersal and I don’t, it really was a bit frightening when you first do it, because you’re aware of this coming up behind you and you think they’re doing it on purpose, to make you feel nervous, but they’re not that because that was the accelerator they were pushing you see, so they were coming along in jerks and you were driving this yellow Humber Snipe with ‘Follow Me’ up here!
Int: Oh, so they had it on in those did it? I’ve seen the Americans have it – so it actually said ‘Follow Me’ on the roof did it? Oh my goodness me!
MC: Yes. It was a great joke, yes.
Int: So this thing stood out a little bit, being painted yellow then!
MC: Yes, we thought it was funny, and of course they were sniggering when the aircrew came out of the aircraft – ‘Follow Me’, [laugh] that was the new thing when I went back to Hemswell from Ingham.
Int: Oh right, but did they have them at Ingham, the ‘Follow Me’?
MC: No, they didn’t. That was the only one I ever saw.
Int: They just had the yellow vehicle.
MC: ‘Follow Me’, and of course it’s a bit frightening because they’ve got a huge roar, those Merlin engines.
Int: The engine behind you, yes.
MC: Brr, and then there’d be a pause and then brr, another pause, yes.
Int: So this yellow car, was the yellow car at Ingham then, or just at Hemswell.
MC: Hemswell. Used to call it the yellow peril.
Int: The yellow peril!
MC: And you used to drive up to dispersal point, circle the dispersal point with the yellow peril and then come out again and then the aircraft.
Int: Do the same, do the same thing. Crikey. But then did you have to then rush back, to come back with the lorry or the bus for them?
MC: Oh yes, once they were in, once they were in, yes. Back to the Control Tower.
Int: To pick up the other vehicle, to then come straight back out to pick them up from the aircraft?
MC: Well that was when I was doing the, driving the yellow peril, other times, when you were just driving the ordinary crew bus, you just went out to the dispersal and waited for them to get in.
Int: Oh I see, somebody else was doing the crew bus while you were doing the yellow peril then.
MC: Yes, and they didn’t have it all the time. It was a new invention while we were there: it was the newest, you know.
Int: The latest idea.
MC: Yes. We didn’t have it all the time, when I first went there, we didn’t have it, we just used to say A-Able landed, well you were waiting, watching it land and then you had to go out and pick them up.
Int: When you were at Ingham, driving at Ingham, did you have to go up the Control Tower then for waiting for the crews to come back?
MC: No, no, as far as I know, it was you know, very sort of laid back, I mean you never used to do that at Ingham, no. No, I don’t know how they managed to, I can’t remember. I used to be helping the sergeant out at the Control Tower if there was an aircraft coming back early, you know, they’d all, as they were flying over the coast one developed trouble or something and came back early, cause we had to be on stand-by in case that happened. And this sergeant from the Control Tower seemed to be doing most of the work then. Yes. But at Ingham, erm, at Hemswell of course they had a Squadron Leader up in the Control Tower there and it was all very different.
Int: Yes, very much a bigger station wasn’t it, yes, certainly. I mean obviously the station, for Ingham, the Station Headquarters was down in the village. I don’t know whether you remember that? Perhaps didn’t go down into the village much.
MC: No, I don’t. I never went down into the village, no.
Int: It’s interesting that you were housed, or billeted, up on the, just to the north of the airfield at RAF Ingham, when you were so close to Hemswell. You’d think they’d have kept you at Hemswell.
MC: Yes. It was on the way to Hemswell.
Int: Indeed! Yes.
MC: Yes, it was on the way to Hemswell. I remember there was a sort of a spinney, and I thought oh well they’ve picked the right place because the nissen huts are sort of probably covered partly, you know, from above, by the trees.
Int: I think so, and the spinney is still there, if it’s the same one I’m thinking of.
MC: Oh it’s still there is it?
Int: Yes, along the front and down the side as well. Very much so.
MC: Yes. So you can see what a long way we had to walk for breakfast!
Int: You can now. The fields, the fields are very much open now, but it’s still a long, you know, it’s a good five or ten minutes trek to get to the airmens’ mess.
MC: Would you say about a quarter of a mile?
Int: I think so, possibly yes.
MC: That’s what I thought.
Int: And you probably wouldn’t have gone straight across the ploughed field, would you, you’d have gone along the road or something, and that’s where the airmen’s mess is. It’s on the edge of another little wood, or a small spinney, a bit further down.
MC: Yes.
Int: We found, when we were digging around, we found a few of the old mugs.
MC: Oh did you!
Int: Because you had the white mugs, but on the bottom of it, it was by people like Wedgewood and some of the main pottery makers, but it says: ‘For the Air Ministry’ 1942 or ‘43. We’ve not found a complete one yet, we’ve found lots of broken pieces.
MC: Oh, what a shame.
Int: And one or two knives and forks with NAAFI written on them, where people, for whatever reason, had thrown them out the windows or just got rid of them. So we have found quite a few little artefacts around, so.
MC: Oh, that’s nice.
Int: So when you come for the visit, it would be lovely to show you round and to show you what we’ve actually done.
MC: That would be great. Yes.
Int: So did you, obviously you must have had, did you get just like one or two days off a week? Did they give you days off or not?
MC: Do you know I really can’t remember. I remember going down into Lincoln on some days, when there was transport, but er, I can’t, I can remember coming home and er, but it wasn’t more than a, one day a week. I think you had to work until your leave came up. I think it was just about one day a week.
Int: And then you just used to catch, was it service transport, was it the military transport, or was it like the normal bus that ran into Lincoln?
MC: No, they provided transport down into Lincoln.
Int: And that’s where you caught the train I presume did you, when you wanted to go home to Leeds, or not?
MC: No, I caught the bus actually, because at that time my mother was living in Castle Bytham. Which is difficult to get to when there’s no train going. Well, there used to be trains running through there but there’s not any more, after Beeching, you know.
Int: Yes, indeed.
MC: We had a wonderful train service, even got an evening paper in the village and it came from Leicester, the train, and went through to Spalding and right to the coast.
Int: Oh right!
MC: Yes. And it was Beeching that cut that out. Yes, we used to get an evening paper.
Int: So what would you say, what are the memorable things about working at Hemswell and Ingham? I mean there must be some day-to-day funny situations that occurred that you remember to this day?
MC: Well I always remember the buzz that you knew when operations were on. No, no one had to come and tell you because everyone was rushing around and you know, doing things. They used to issue a Battle Order in the morning and if it was brandy we were operating, if it was lemonade they were standing down. But, I think that, it really impressed me, that did, how everyone sprang into a quicker pace, and you know, you knew if you were on the station, oh yes they would be operating tonight.
Int: Operating tonight.
MC: And another thing is, it was so nice, that when the war was just finishing, they flew over to Holland a lot to drop food, for all those people that were starving you know.
Int: Operation Manna.
MC: Yes.
Int: Was it called Operation Manna?
MC: Yes. They were going to allow so many people to go and they had to volunteer. Well I volunteered but unfortunately the day it was my turn and they came for me, I was at home on leave, so was sorry about that, cause they said they were waving tablecloths and you know.
Int: Ah, that’s tremendous.
MC: They were so pleased to see the British Air Force.
Int: We’ve looked at the operational records and it shows that right at the end of the war, RAF Ingham was used with the big hangars that they’d got to store a lot of the food for Operation Manna so I presume that yourself and other people that were on the MT Section, the transport, would have probably come down to pick up the food to take it back to Hemswell to put it on the aircraft did you, or were the aircraft drops from Hemswell or from other?
MC: Oh, well I think they went from other stations but I know Hemswell sent quite a bit.
Int: Sent some stuff on Operation Manna, cause we found records.
MC: I’m so sorry that I missed it, you know. I thought oh that would have been lovely.
Int: That was your one opportunity you had a chance to go in the aircraft then.
MC: Well I had been in a Wellington bomber, I think told you before, and I did go in a Lancaster when he was evening exercises, it was in the summer time, what we used to call circuits and bumps, you know, and we got a, did a circuit and we landed and got going again and the tyre burst so the aircraft sort of went over sideways a bit, [laugh] but er, no, yes, I’ve been in a Lancaster and I went in a Wellington as well.
Int: Oh, I am so envious that you’ve actually flown in a Wellington, because of course there are no airworthy Wellingtons, there’s only two, two Wellingtons in existence now: one’s down at the Hendon, the RAF Museum at Hendon, and the other one is at Brooklands, where they were originally made.
MC: Oh really!
Int: By obviously Vickers Armstrong at the time.
MC: How lovely, yes. It was lovely, because we flew, it was a training exercise obviously, for the aircrew, otherwise I wouldn’t have been on it; they were just sort of giving me a free, you know, taste. We flew all around Lincoln Cathedral, all round there and do you know, it looked so beautiful, it looked like the tooth fairy in those original advert for toothpaste I thought how beautiful it was, it was really lovely. I told you the groundcrew were saying oh I wouldn’t go in that, it’s got a hole in the canvas or something! No, it was lovely aircraft, yes.
Int: Oh, that’s tremendous, yes.
MC: I was quite attached to the Wellingtons, a sort of tail coming up.
Int: I know. Not perhaps the prettiest of aircraft but certainly very much the robust, and they made more of those than they did of Lancasters during the war, so, but it’s just that the Lancaster I think because it’s, it looks a more, I don’t know, pretty’s not the right word to use, but.
MC: Bit more aggressive, isn’t it.
Int: Yes, and maybe a little bit more graceful. The Wellington always looked a bit short and chunky didn’t it, but a very, very good bomber and that’s why they kept going for so long I think.
MC: I can remember a crew saying to me, my boyfriend’s crew actually, and he said we’ve got the newest and fastest bombers and they’d just had a delivery of the Lancasters and I thought well a big step up from the Wellingtons, weren’t they.
Int; Very much so, power wise and the amount they could carry. Did you stay as a WAAF right to the end of the war, did you?
MC: Well no, when they finished operating and dropping bombs, I was sent down to Air Ministry in London.
Int: Oh right.
MC: And at that time they were bringing a lot of sensitive stuff back from Germany and I was taking um, high ranking officers out to, Hendon is it?
INT: Hendon, yes.
MC: RAF thing, and they were bringing all this fibreglass things and all sorts of things back and, it was MI5 really, work, [laughter] so I can understand a bit of your setup! And they were bringing this stuff back and this Wing Commander used to want to go out and have a look at this stuff and check it I suppose and do things like that and I had to drive him round there.
Int: So you did a lot of driving round London then really.
MC: What a change from driving round Hemswell to Lincoln! I was terrified the first few days.
Int: I’m not surprised.
MC: Because you got round the, I can’t remember the name of the place in London, round that corner, some corner in London, and the traffic, they used to come up right almost scraping the paint off your car - course it wasn’t my car, I didn’t have to worry about the expense.
Int: No!
MC: I still didn’t want to crash and they were dreadful, round Hyde Park Corner, any time from three thirty, was a nightmare, after coming from the lovely ribbon like roads of Lincolnshire.
Int: Indeed yes. And you occasionally met another vehicle coming the other way and that was about it.
MC: Well the taxi drivers used to push in in front of you and I got as bad as they were in the end, you know, pushing in.
Int: You get used to it, don’t you, yes.
MC: But er, no, I wouldn’t like to have to do it today!
Int: So, just going back a little bit to when you were talking about when you were at Ingham, did you make many good friends at Ingham, did you have?
MC: Oh yes, yes, it was nice.
Int: I suppose all the girls that were in your -
MC: Oh yes, I was going to show you some photographs. Shall I put the kettle on?
Int: Please. I’ll just turn this off for a moment as well.
MC: If you want to use the bathroom it’s upstairs.
Int: Thank you. It’s still not the same, looking at anything, looking at a picture or something that’s written down, is almost two dimensional, the minute I talk to you or anybody like yourself that were there as veterans, it makes it three dimensional, it’s so, so different. Please, if you care to take a seat and then I’ll sit next to you have a look at the photographs.
MC: Yes. We’ll have tea.
Int: Oh yes, we drink tea first. Oof. [Crockery sounds]
MC: Oh yes, it’s, there was a spirit about, everyone seemed to be willing to help everyone else, you know, you’ll never get that again, I think, quite like that.
Int: I don’t think you do these days, with most young people these days, they’re out for themselves rather than the collective spirit.
MC: Yes. Exactly. Yes, it was a wonderful time to be alive, really. You know the awful things were happening but at least you could help and do something about it.
Int: You felt what you were doing, as you said, very long hours through the night.
MC: Oh yes.
Int: But you felt at least you were doing your part on the ground whereas the aircrew were doing their part in the air.
MC: You now, Air Commodore Cousins that made that film, I’ve got a copy of it: ‘The Night Bomber’, have you seen it?
Int: The one from Hemswell? Yes, it’s like twenty four hours in the day, yes.
MC: Yes. Exactly. Well Air Commodore Cousins was a Group Captain in charge of Hemswell, at one time, and then he was promoted and left it, but he made the film after he left Hemswell, but he was able to go and have the hangars done and everything organised for him – for the film. But he came in, I was on night duty actually, in MT Section, and he came in, had a look round, about two in the morning, and you know what it was like, there was no one there to have tea cloths or dish cloths or any washing up things, there was just a tiny little basin with cold water and you had to put water on the stove, you know the sort of stoves they had, to make the tea, so I made him some tea and I said I’m sorry, I must apologise for the washing up; there’s no tea cloths and no washing up at all, [chuckle] you just put the water in the cup and swished round and hoped for the best!
Int: Did you get on to the film yourself? Were you seen on the film driving at all?
MC: Oh, the film he made? Yes. Oh yes! I’m on the film.
Int: You’re on the film are you? Oh, tremendous!
MC: Yes. Only for a second, if you close, blink, you miss me, but when they were coming out of the briefing, they come all, coming out of the briefing and coming to get in my, well it was the lorry I was driving that night. The corporal driving the van, he wanted to be in the film you see. He sat in the office every day, never came out, but for the film he did!
Int: For the film he had to come out.
MC: You just see me at the bottom, the trousers on and jacket just as they’re coming out cause some of them were coming to get in my lorry, they used to hang onto the thing in the back of the lorry, if no crew was available. We only had two crew buses, and you did, if you blink you might miss me, but when they’re coming out, if you see it, look for me when they’re coming out of the briefing, from the locker room, got in the Mae West and everything, and they’re coming to get in the transport and I just appeared at the back, for a few moments.
Int: And that’s it is it?
MC: I’ve been told this corporal, when they were making the film in another part of the aerodrome, I drove up saying where’s Joan, I thought she was driving the crew bus today and they said get out of the way, get out of the way we’re making a film! [Laughter] So I thought on the second occasion I’d better sort of not be around.
Int: Oh, well that’s good.
MC: You just see me for a brief few minutes.
Int: I’ll have to have a look now.
MC: In my trousers.
Int: My goodness me. Well once I’ve seen you on some of these, the photographs you’re going to show me, it’ll be, it should be easy to spot you, anyway, on the Hemswell thing. Now I do remember I think at the time, he was a Group Captain Cousins, and he definitely flew some of the missions, not many, from Ingham.
MC: Oh he did, yes.
Int: Cause from the flight records that was either with 199 or it was with 305 Polish, it wasn’t 300, so it may well have been 199 that he flew with, maybe it was just to keep his um, flying hours up or something because I did think at the time it was strange to have a Group Captain flying in an aircraft, but that was probably why. That was to keep his hours up.
MC: He was ever such a good chap. You know I mean how many Group Captains go around at two in the morning see if everything’s running all right?
Int: That’s tremendous, yes. I’ll have to, I’ll see if I have a photograph of him.
MC: Oh my God, you know! He was Station Commander, Group Captain at that time and he’s sitting in the rest room there. [Laugh] Such a surprise!
Int: But then you do get a mix, even this day and age, you get a mix of people who are Station Commanders. some of them are nice and very approachable and some are very kind of awkward and standoffish. I suppose that’s just individual personalities isn’t it.
MC: Well I tell you what, I was invited to an Officers Mess dance, somewhere in the Wolds, I can’t remember the place now, and this Squadron Leader came and picked me up, it was a friend of a friend, he came with his car and picked me up and took me there and I was there, and of course really, although it was a dance, we hadn’t got enough clothes with us in the WAAF to have long evening gowns and all the stuff they have today, we just didn’t have it and I was there and suddenly I saw him approaching the door the same time as me! Oh my god I thought, here I am at the Officer’s Mess dance and the Group Captain from my station’s here!
Int: And he’s gonna wonder why you’re there!
MC: And do you know what he did? He just winked at me and went on! [Laugh] I thought oh, that’s nice!
Int: But did he recognise you do you think? You think he recognised you?
MC: Yes, yes. I’m sure he did, otherwise he wouldn’t have winked, would he.
Int: No. That’s probably true, what a pretty young lady, you know [laughter]!
MC: He just looked round and smiled and winked at me so I thought oh, perhaps he’s not going to say I’m doing something I shouldn’t. Cause I was only an ordinary LAC you see.
Int: Of course yes, almost, almost to them the lowest of the low really! [Laugh] Did you ever have any, were there any dances at Ingham while you were there at all?
MC: Oh yes, oh yes we did. Cause I remember one night and the atmosphere changed so suddenly because three of our aircraft hadn’t got back; we lost three in one night.
Int: Oh dear, so.
MC: The whole atmosphere of the place changed.
Int: That was during the dance itself?
MC: Yes, during the dance when the news came back that three of our aircraft hadn’t returned; cause we all knew the crews you see.
Int: Indeed.
MC: Yes, oh yes. It was awful really, when they didn’t come back.
Int: Where did they hold the dances at Ingham then?
MC: Well they must have held it in the nissen hut I think.
Int: Right, okay.
MC: As far as I can remember. [Laugh]
Int; Because just past the airmens mess, where you would have had your, where you had your lunch and your dinner, there was what they used to call The Institute. You probably remember the NAAFI Institute, which was like the club, in the evening where, it was another big building.
MC: It wasn’t the NAAFI was it?
Int: It was the NAAFI, yes, that’s what they were called, the NAAFI. Where you had different rooms in there, and that’s why I was thinking did they hold the dances in there, and things.
MC: No, not in the NAAFI.
Int: No, they were up in the nissen hut near the WAAF, near the WAAF quarters.
MC: I’m not sure, and I can’t, I couldn’t pinpoint where we had the dancing, but I think it was, er, really where the, um, not far from the Control Tower I don’t think. Is the Control Tower still there?
Int: The Control Tower is still there, but the gentleman, because obviously the Control Tower, there was a big house next to it, in the middle of the airfield, it’s called Cliff House. I think some of the officers used it to live in, so it was literally about twenty yards from the Control Tower and that has been, that’s been quite derelict, and the owner of the house in the middle now, he’s a doctor, [crockery sounds] and he decided rather than knock it down, he’s rebuilt part of it so it’s still got that square shape to it.
MC: Oh really, do you know I don’t remember that.
Int: But er, it’s a, he’s turned it into like a gymnasium, so he’s, it’s still got the same shape, but unfortunately -
MC: Shape, you can recognise it.
Int: Yes, yes.
MC: Is the pub still there, where we used to go and have a quick drink?
Int: The pub? Yes. It’s called the Windmill now [emphasis], because there used to be a windmill opposite it, on the other side of the road. The landlord and lady, landlady have been there since about 1964. They’ve retired a couple of times but just keep it open for fun I think! But obviously I don’t know whether it was called The Windmill a long, long time ago.
MC: No, I can’t remember what it was called. I know we used to have a quick sort of drink there and, but it was so obvious, such a temptation. It backed on to the perimeter you see.
Int: Indeed, yes, and we’ve walked around the back and there are still several of the old buildings left there. There used to be three hangars on the airfield: one to the north, one near where the pub was, and there used to be one over on the A15 itself, right next to the A15; it’s on three sides of the airfield.
MC: I can’t remember that.
Int: No. But then again, if you didn’t have to drive round there you probably wouldn’t have noticed those. Did it seem a very strange place, RAF Ingham, from what you can remember, because it was very, it wasn’t like Hemswell, it was.
MC: Oh no, nothing like that, no.
Int: Just an old grass airfield.
MC: Yes. Did I tell you? I perhaps, I don’t know whether I told you or not, when we used to put goosenecks out? If an aircraft was, got to the coast and was returning early, the sergeant from the Control Tower and I had a little standard van with a cloth covering over, can you, I don’t know if you ever saw one?
Int: Yes.
MC: It had a sort of irons over like that, and a cloth, and the back was open, and they used to take him round and they used to put, made a sort of runway, lit it up with these goosenecks. It was paraffin inside, and they set the paraffin alight and just put these down on the ground.
Int: Just a, like a kind of runway lights.
MC: One night, I was timing it, I could see through the back because the canvas thing was here you see and this was all bare and putting the goosenecks in and out, the sergeant from the Control Tower.
Int: Oh, so he didn’t just light them, they were already, he actually put them out and then lit them.
MC: Oh yes, yes.
Int; I didn’t know they were already out. Put them all out.
MC: We had to manhandle them and put them out, yes. And I happened to look round at the back and there was great big Wellington lumbering along behind there and I thought my god, get off the runway quick! [Laughter].
Int: Oh dear!
MC: Yes. That was a, cause I probably realised that he might have been in such difficulties that he couldn’t control it as he would like and here was I sitting on the edge of the runway, so I got off quick. Yes, it used to be quite exciting.
Int: Did you have any, to your recollection, did you have any where the aircraft actually kind of crashed on landing when they came back? Did you ever see any of that?
MC: Not, no, not while I was around and out there. We had, well we had two crashes on the station while I was there. One of them was, there used to be a big green in the, at Hemswell, [horn sounding] separating the men on that side, the housing, the men were billeted in houses and the same on that side, and the aircraft sort of got back to base but crashed on this huge piece of green grass and the gunner was dead in the back of the turret. It was awful, you know, to see him there, but I mean they didn’t stand much of a chance to get out did they.
Int: No, not if it came down like that, no. The problem with the gunner, the rear gunner, of course is that he’s in a little capsule bubble.
MC: Yes.
Int: And if the, because the whole turret, as you probably remember, rotated.
MC: Rotate round.
Int: You had the little doors at the back, behind him.
MC: And then they’ve got their parachute and things on.
Int: And if it was jammed round at a strange angle he would not have physically been able to get out, so that was pretty er, pretty horrendous.
MC: And then there was another time there was a Flight Lieutenant and he was due, he’d done his two tours of ops and he was looking forward to sort of a fairly normal life, and someone was sick and they couldn’t go so he took their place and they crashed into the hangar, edge of the hangar; they were all killed. And then there was an ATA, I always remember her, brought in a new aircraft, beautiful new aircraft, and I thought uh, wouldn’t I love to be doing that, you know. And anyway, they took off and there was a Squadron Leader with her, and whether he was going through the controls or not I don’t know, because the ATA didn’t have much time to study the controls, did they.
Int: No, no that was it.
MC: On those things.
Int: They flew all different kinds of aircraft as well.
MC: They took off and I had to go somewhere and I came back and they said do you know, that aircraft that took off, and this beautiful ATA girl, lovely she was, so pretty, and they said it’s just crashed, they’re all killed. Yes, and they were just sort of trying it out I think. But yes, it was very sad in many ways. [Pause] There you are. I wouldn’t have missed it, you know, the experience of being in the services. Lots of trying times when I put sort of old, crisp bread on a toaster, I’d come in hungry and the cookhouse was closed. [Laugh] They give you those straw things to put your head on you know, it’s not a pillow, when you go in, I thought oh, I can’t do with this, I had to take a down pillow from home. [Laugh] I couldn’t go to sleep well with one of those. And the irritating thing used to be kit inspection.
Int: Oh, you still had those through the war did you, kit inspection?
MC: Oh yes! [emphasis] Had to be polished and laid out and woe betide you if it wasn’t as it should be.
Int: Who did the inspection? Was it the Station Warrant Officer, or?
MC: No, WAAF, WAAF officer.
Int: Oh, the WAAF officer.
MC: And do you know I was put on a charge, everybody thought it was a huge joke, because I’d got a silk scarf on my battledress thing, collars were a bit stiff, particularly at two in the morning and you were nearly nodding off. So I used to wear a silk scarf and the WAAF officer came down, round, one evening and I was put on a charge for being improperly dressed. And the thing was, what did they give me to do for my charge? Was to go up the Officers Mess cookhouse, peeling onions. [Chuckle] And they kept opening the door and looking in and saying what are you doing there Marion, [laugh] cause they knew me so well taking them out to the aircraft.
Int: Tears streaming down! You must have smelt of onions for days afterwards.
MC: [Laugh] Oh dear, that was my punishment.
Int: Oh, dear me.
MC: You wouldn’t think they would bother about not wearing a -
Int: No, think more important things to do, you know. Gosh.
MC: Yes, and I thought I was much more comfortable with the silk scarf round my neck than the tight collar. However, it all went off quite well and was a huge joke really – or they thought it was.
Int: So you were saying earlier that you had to wash, obviously there’s no laundry, you had to wash your own clothes. I presume they obviously, [clink of china] whoops, they provided you with an iron and an ironing board to iron your clothes with, that was in the -
MC: No, I don’t know, I just can’t remember what we did. I think we saved it up, I sent mine home by post I think! We saved it up and did it when we could. If we were going home on a day off or something you’d do it then.
Int: That’s when do all your ironing and things.
MC: Yes. It was difficult times, yes.
Int: Yes, yes. And certainly if you were working from early afternoon right the way through to the middle of the night –
MC: Oh yes. That was awful really, the night duty.
Int: You try and sleep during the day time as well. That’s not always the easiest of jobs is it.
MC: No, no. Oh yes, it was a long stretch that was. I suppose it was the only way they could do it because you know, there weren’t so many drivers you see.
Int: No, indeed. If the vast majority were female, were WAAF drivers, then the small number of you have to keep doing all the different jobs you had to do.
MC: Yes.
Int: So did you have like a sergeant in charge of you, or a corporal, or somebody?
MC: There was a corporal in the MT office. Yes.
Int: MT office. And thing is all the vehicles that you drove in those days are probably sitting in museums somewhere now aren’t they. Everything from like the little, was it Austin 9, or Hillman 9? They were little cars, weren’t they.
MC: Do you know, I did my training, they made us, even though we could drive, well I could drive anyway, they sent us up to Wales and we had sort of um, like a Hillman, only it was a van. That’s what we started, we had to be trained, RAF way, and then we went out the following week and there was all these big lorries lined up, so we looked and thought good gracious they’re not expecting us to drive those are they! [Laughter]
Int: And they were!
MC: They were. And the thing was, I thought my instructor seemed very nervous and itchy and you know, watching what you were doing every moment. Someone told me, we were driving in Wales at this time, someone told me that he’d had a previous pupil and she’d taken him down one of these ravines; they’d gone over the edge. So no wonder he was nervous!
Int: I’m surprised he was still doing the job, yes.
MC: So no wonder he was nervous, I thought, oh gosh this man is very nervous.
Int: Could we have a look at your, your album.
MC: Oh yes, he used to -
Int: I tell you what, you sit down, I’ll pass it over. There we are.
MC: Thank you very much, I can.
Int: I’ll kneel down next to you if that’s all right.
MC: Oh yes, do. Pass it over.
Int: Just leave that.
MC: Most of my family -
Int: Is that you is it?
MC: No, that’s my sister Pat, this is the one that’s just lost her husband; he died last week, yes.
Int: Oh right.
MC: There’s one of my co-drivers, at home with her mother. And that’s another one, she was in the MT. Oh, there’s me as a child! [Laugh] Oh.
Int: Either of those you? No?
MC: Oh. Which one? That’s my sister again. That’s me, yes; that’s me, that’s me there.
Int: Very nice.
MC: That was our paddock, a two acre paddock behind the house there and that was in to the back street at Swayfield.
Int: So these were taken before the war were they, or just at the very beginning.
MC: During the war, yes.
Int: Just during the war.
MC: Now wait a minute, give you the right ones.
Int: Now can you remember, can you remember your service number, cause most people?
MC: 2053210.
Int: There we go, isn’t it amazing, it sticks with you all, all through your years.
MC: Here you are, there’s the first one.
Int: Some pictures of the coast. Oh look, there’s your crew bus.
MC: Yes, there we are, there’s a friend of mine there, that’s Joan, she was, there’s another one. I don’t know what aircraft that is? That’s me in uniform.
Int: There’s a picture in the distance there, is that Hemswell? Or is that? No, that looks more like a cricket ground.
MC: Lords. That was my rest room when I went down to London, to Air Ministry.
Int: Oh right.
MC: Yes. Oh here we are, we’re getting to it.
Int: Yes. That’s, that looks like a Lancaster cause it’s got the twin parts.
MC: It is, yes, and this is the skipper there, that’s him.
Int: And is that you in the middle then?
MC: This is me, here. Must have been a windy day, my tie.
Int: Would that have been at Hemswell then?
MC: Oh yes, Hemswell, yes. That’s Bob something his name was, oh yes here, Bob, you see we knew them all so well.
Int: Which was this?
MC: Hemswell.
Int: I’m just thinking which squadron would that have been then?
MC: That’s a Lancaster, isn’t it.
Int: Yes.
MC: [Pause] This is more.
Int: Oh yes, more pictures of you. Is that you with your friends?
MC: Yes. And then there’s, that’s a friend of mine, yes.
Int: That’s you with the ambulance.
MC: This is, they’re all crew bus drivers, those girls are. She’d lived down south and a beautiful wooded area, I can’t remember the name of it though, and that’s Joan. This is a friend of mine. Oh, and you can look, we were, I was volunteered to shovel snow off the runway there.
Int: Oh! Next to the aircraft!
MC: Because the Ardennes offensive was on and they were suffering over there and we couldn’t get aircraft off the ground, because of the snow. So I volunteered to go and clear the runway. There was about four women, all the rest were men.
Int: Are you one of these?
MC: That’s me.
Int: Oh, the furthest one, yeah?
MC: That, we were on our way out to the pub at the village near, and that’s a great friend of mine, Pat.
Int: Was this Ingham or was this Hemswell?
MC: This: Hemswell.
Int: I’m just intrigued with the bridge. That’s a lovely kind of stone bridge, that should be easy to spot these days; that must be around somewhere.
MC: That’s not at Hemswell though.
Int: That’s not at Hemswell, oh, no.
MC: That was taken, we’d all gone out to the pub, on the Market Rasen road.
Int: Ah right.
MC: This is a, I’m not sure, this is a Wellington bomber, isn’t it, in the snow.
Int: Um, it looks Wellington yes, because it tends to sit up. Was that you as well?
MC: No. That’s a friend of mine. That’s me there.
Int: Yes.
MC: Yup, and that’s me there.
MC: Definitely you. With your big grey coat on. Oh! And that’s definitely you cause of your - that’s a lovely one that, isn’t it. Did one of the aircrew give you this?
MC: Yes. One of the, yes, they did it actually. Oh here we are, clearing the snow off the runway! You see how thick it was.
Int: They got everybody doing that did they? Everybody was doing that, or just MT?
MC: Well a lot of the men were, but not many of the WAAF. But er, and here, this is a Polish pilot that one.
Int: Yes, and this is a Polish aircraft because you can’t see the B on it, but H. BH was 300 Squadron, so.
MC: And the thing was that the chappie taking the photographs said get close together, get close together! And I thought [laughter].
Int: Oh yes, you’ve got it down there: 300 Squadron. Just read that now, yes.
MC: Oh yes.
Int: And are you on this one? Oh, sick quarters staff.
MC: Yes. No, I’m not on that one but I spent a night doing my MT duty down at sick quarters on a stretcher. Gone to sleep as well! Wait a moment, there’s some more here. Oh this is a, we all went out to the pub.
Int: It’s that, the same bridge you’re on there, yes.
MC: And here you are, these are mostly MT girls. Am I on this one? I’m not sure whether I am on this one. What do I say here? Can you read it?
Int: Er, let me have a little look. Um, somebody Kay and Peg, going off to, oh, going off to be demobbed it says. Somebody else at first, is it Joan? Or a name like that. Somebody else, Kay and Peg going off to be demobbed.
MC: Oh yes. Is that the back, is that the crew bus there?
Int: It looks it. What does this say here? It says WAAF NAAFI, something.
MC: Hemswell.
Int: Is it outwards, or outbounds, at Hemswell. Let me just have a little look.
MC: Yes, you can probably see better than I can.
Int: You have lovely um [pause].
MC: Is that the crew bus then?
Int: It says something and then it says W A A F, the WAAF NAAFI, but I can’t. Let me just have a look in the light. Just one second, [Pause]
MC: Do you know in those days I was offered a little Austin 7, for five pounds! [Laughter]
Int: Did you take it? I can’t work out what that word is, but it definitely says WAAF NAAFI, Hemswell, so whether that’s the NAAFI bus, or you’re just going out to the NAAFI, I don’t know.
MC: WAAF NAAFI Hemswell. I can’t read that. Outside!
Int: Oh, outside!
MC: Yes, outside the WAAF NAAFI.
Int: Oh, so you had a separate NAAFI did you? One for the WAAFs and one for the men then did you?
MC: No, not really. I don’t know, and they used to use that as a crew bus. I don’t know what I’ve got down there. That’s one of the Canadian pilots.
Int: That’s a Lancaster.
MC: That’s a Lancaster.
Int: What does this say? The beautiful old thing was my crew bus.
MC: Oh yes, that was before the lorry.
Int: This, yes it says this beautiful old thing was my crew bus. And that’s you obviously, there.
MC: That’s me in front there. Oh yes.
Int: Let’s have a look up here. You on that one? I can’t see. Again, it looks like Joan or something.
MC: Yes, that is Joan, yes.
Int: Peg, Bill, is it Enid? Possibly. And something else.
MC: Do you know, I can’t see it.
Int: No, nor can I!
MC: This white ink is getting further and further away from it.
Int: Yes.
MC: He was a Canadian pilot.
Int: Right, so that would –
MC: And he was quite friendly with my friend. And these I can’t see. Can you see their faces? I haven’t written under that one have I? Oh yes, I’ve written under that one there.
Int: You’ve written at the side. Erm, [pause] no, I’ll have to have to get a magnifying glass myself to have a look at that.
MC: There we are.
Int: Ah, some other photographs, again.
MC: That’s groundcrew isn’t it. This is the aircrew, I don’t know which crew it is, and there’s me again here look, I’ve got the Mae West on! [Laugh] I don’t know what I was doing there, with the Mae West on!
Int: Would it be possible, for us to borrow this and to, to duplicate some of the photographs?
MC: Yes, that would be a good idea.
Int: And then obviously you’ve still got the original ones, but it would be lovely, because what we can do is, we’ll either photograph them with a really good high powered camera that they’ve got at RAF Cranwell, which we’ve used before, or we can get them scanned where you put them onto a glass plate and it scans them at very high resolution then you can actually reproduce the photograph as good as it originally was.
MC: And can you get them all back to me in one piece?
Int: We certainly can. No, no, it would, we just borrow them to actually get them.
MC: That’s me there, that’s Peggy. That’s Joan. Oh, that’s Lamby we used to call her, I don’t know why it was Lamby. And there’s with the ground crew again.
Int: Flight Boys of something 10. P10 or T10 squadron, oh no, 170 Squadron, sorry.
MC: Oh yes, 170 Squadron.
Int: 170 Squadron, er December ’44 it says there.
MC: There, I’m afraid he was, he was killed, yes.
Int: But I presume when you say flight boys, I think they were the ground crew, weren’t they, because some of them have got the -
MC: Oh yes, on B Flight or A Flight, yes.
Int: They’ve got the leather jerkin on that they used to wear.
MC: Oh yes, oh yes, they’re definitely ground crew. They used to be very important people, you know.
Int: And then this one says –
MC: That’s outside the pub at Caenby Corner.
Int: Oh right, yes!
MC: You know Caenby Corner?
Int: Yes! Now that, that has been empty for about fifteen years now. They’re trying to sell it, and nobody, in fact Max, who I told you about – there was a Polish officer in Nottingham - he asked about the pub, he couldn’t remember the name of it but remembered they always used to have lockins, you know, you could go in there and they closed the doors and shut the curtains and they’d be drinking all night in there you see.
MC: Oh yes, fascinating. We used to go and we used to play that and we’d drink to the Health of Cardinal Puff Puff, [laughter] I don’t think you know that game?
Int: No, but I can imagine it’s um, yes!
MC: Oh yes, there’s the ground crew, yes, and some of the drivers.
Int: That one says. Yes. I’ll have to get my magnifying glass to look at this, cause you, obviously your writing was very, very beautifully written but you write very small don’t you, obviously when you wrote these, yes.
MC: Yes. But interesting to you I suppose.
Int: Oh very much so, yes! [Emphasis]
MC: But if they’d been taken at Ingham you’d have been more interested.
Int: No, but Hemswell as well, because of your connection with it and its [indecipherable].
MC: Some of these people would recognise themselves.
Int: Yes.
MC: What do I say here? Something, so small, isn’t it.
Int: I know, yes. My something crew, R for Roger, er, it was the groundcrew, it says here, groundcrew, R for Roger, er, my something or other. I can’t quite make it out.
MC: What does it say here? Can you read that? No I can’t. 1945 I’ve got. Or is it 1943?
Int: No, that’s actually ‘46.
MC: Oh is it! [Laugh]
Int: Or at least I think so. 22nd of April 1946. It says, I think it says Bremen there. Would they have been going to Bremen?
MC: Oh yes, they went to Bremen, yes. We never realised when, what awful things they’d got to go through when we took them out to their aircraft, and the groundcrew were pretty good. Oh that, he’d a pilot: he’s a Canadian. I remember him, he used to go off to Doncaster for weekends with dubious girls! [Laughter] I kept out of his way! Yes. Well I suppose they only lived once don’t they.
Int: Indeed and -
MC: Well, the time was so short for them.
Int: With everything that was going on, yes they probably felt it more than anybody else, didn’t they, that they had to live life while they had -
MC: While they could.
Int: Yes, while they could.
MC: What’s that? Country Kerry. Oh, that was when I was in Ireland. That’s my sister when she was a tiny girl, and my mother.
Int: That’s Dorothy is it?
MC: Yes. That’s Dorothy, and my parents had the Royal Oak at Swayfield at that time and that was in the pub garden. Oh, that’s the back of the pub. There’s a doorway there now, that must have been very old. Course it is a very old pub but the doorway is now there.
Int; That’s probably kind of late thirties.
MC: The door was there when we were living there, but that must have been before they, that time, yes.
Int: Knocked it through. Oh gosh.
MC: That’s shovelling the snow.
Int: Again! [Laughter] There’s a theme building here, shovelling snow, isn’t there, but!
MC: That was when I was in Ireland I suppose. Can’t pronounce that word, Country Kerry, passenger from. Hmm. That’s my brother who’s, died in September. That’s my dog, just see the little nose, there.
Int: Oh yes, yes.
MC: And that’s my girlfriend’s, the back of her house. She’s gone also. They’ve gone. That’s in Surrey, visiting a friend. Right, well. I don’t know, can you guarantee I’ll have them all back?
Int: Oh yes, I can.
MC: Why don’t you sit on this?
Int: No, no, it’s easier to kneel. Yes, oh yes, and we’d only borrow them a short time, just to get them, to get them duplicated.
MC: And that’s my brother, yes. Sort of mark off the ones you wanted. You see the first few, that’s me as a little girl, [laugh] with the basket, I was a bridesmaid, and that’s my sister.
Int: Oh gosh. Yes, it’s the RAF ones onwards that obviously we’re interested in, and we’d come back to get you to talk us through them. Cause what we’ll probably do with each of them, when they scan them, because they scan them at such high resolution, we can actually make the pictures bigger, so we can give you a set of copies that are a lot bigger so they’re easier for you to see the photographs as well, because that’s what we did for -
MC: Yes. Well, you can see, that was the crew bus they used, and if they weren’t available we would take them out in a lorry. That’s the crew bus.
Int: Who is that?
MC: Oh yes, he was a Flight Lieutenant, but I think he was on Wellingtons, I think he was, and his father was managing director of Kleeneze Brush Company. [laugh] and I remember when I was poorly once he brought me a little flask full of whiskey, you know, to get me better quick! Oh dear. He was nice. But you see they were moved on after a certain time. They didn’t er -
Int: Indeed. But some of these photographs here, especially ones where you’ve got all the crew around you, they’re -
MC: I mean Bob Hartley’s family would probably love to have something like that.
Int: They’re superb.
MC: He’s the skipper: there. These are the members of his crew. [Indecipherable] No wonder they asked us to clear the snow that time.
Int: Yes. But just, the nice thing is, they’re just natural pictures aren’t they, of people.
MC: Yes. She’s strangling him, you see?
Int: Going about their, going about their kind of their work, through the war years but just getting on with it and seeing the funny side at all, of things which is [indecipherable].
MC: We enjoyed yourselves.
Int: That’s lovely itself because it’s got you, it’s got your vehicle in it, which is tremendous. We’re, we are trying to find some of these old vehicles, and see if we can buy one to renovate up, get it running.
MC: Oh really!
Int: They do have classic old ones around.
MC: What about that? It’s a pity that’s not clearer, isn’t it.
Int: You can probably get it clearer though. I mean each one of these we can blow them up a lot bigger.
MC: What do I say there?
Int: Let’s just have a little look.
MC: Hare’s Hound is it?
Int: Yes, it could be Hare’s Hound.
MC: That’s the aircraft name.
Int: Ah, right. I think so, yes.
MC: The name of the aircraft, yes. There’s the crew, you can’t see them very well can you. I think I’m there. There’s the rest of the crew, cause it’s in darkness, isn’t it. What would they do if they had a photography of today?
Int: Well you know, you see so many pictures these days, where they’re colour, cause they’re all colour, and they never, they don’t look as, it makes it look too real, and I think if this day and age if we took more black and white photographs, there’s a lot more contrast in a black and white photograph. I have some photographs of my father when he was in his early, let’s see, must have probably been the late forties, early fifties, and he’s got some, well he’s just sitting at the table, he looks sideways and somebody’s taken a photograph, and they’re black and white and the difference in contrast of everything: you don’t need [emphasis] the colour to make it a beautiful photograph, so. Whereas colour, I think, sometimes detracts away from what you’re actually talking the photograph of.
MC: Yes, yes. And would you sort of tell me when you want it and have it back within a certain time? It’s precious this, to me.
Int: I fully understand that. Now what I’m thinking is, perhaps, because I said to you that I’m going away to Afghanistan next week.
MC: Oh yes, you brave man.
Int: Everything has been a little bit rushed.
MC: Brave but foolish! [Laugh]
Int: Well, you know as well as I do, when you take, in your case it was the King’s Shilling, in my case it was the Queen’s Shilling, when you take the Queen’s Shilling, then you’re in the RAF and if they want you to go somewhere, you go somewhere.
MC: You’re actually in the RAF?
Int: Yes, I’m just finishing, thirty years, that’s, next year’s thirty years. So I’ve had a complete career in the RAF. Tell you what, I’ll just switch this off now.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marion Clarke Interview
Description
An account of the resource
Marion Clarke served as an mechanical transport driver during the Second World War, her main duties were on Bomber Command stations primarily driving crew buses. She talks about the conditions she experienced such as her accommodation, uniform, leave and dances. Marion recalls some of the people she knew including those who did not survive the war whilst looking at her photographs of the time as well as being in a film which was made about night bombing. She was also interested to hear about RAF Ingham and what is still there.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:14:25 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SRAFIngham19410620v060001-Audio
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Geoff Burton
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944-12
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
170 Squadron
199 Squadron
300 Squadron
control tower
ground personnel
Lancaster
military living conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Nissen hut
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
service vehicle
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1679/29074/LOrtonR2217450v1.1.pdf
5141585d9348cc89e1fec12e4751eec5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Orton, Robert
R Orton
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-03-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Orton, R
Description
An account of the resource
Eighteen items. The collection concerns Robert Orton (b. 1925, 2217450 Royal Air Force) who served as a rear gunner on 150 Squadron at RAF Hemswell and contains his log book, photographs of his crew and a medal ribbon.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by JR Orton and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Robert Orton’s flying log book for navigator’s, air bomber’s, air gunners, flight engineers
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LOrtonR2217450v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigator’s, air bomber’s, air gunners, flight engineers for R Orton, air gunner, covering the period from 27 May 1944 to 7 October 1945. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Stormey Down, RAF Finningley, RAF Worksop, RAF Lindholme, RAF Ingham, RAF Hemswell, RAF Bruntingthorpe, RAF Catterick, RAF Newmarket, and RAF Kirkham. Aircraft flown in were Anson, Wellington, Halifax, and Lancaster. He flew a total of 24 operations with 150 Squadron, 8 daylight and 16 night, plus 5 Operation Manna and one Operation Dodge. Targets were Nurnberg, Hannover, Merseburg, Zeitz, Stuttgart, Mannheim, Wiesbaden, Kleve, Duisburg, Pforzheim, Neuss, Chemnitz, Kassel, Essen, Dortmund, Misburg, Nordhausen, Kiel, Plauen, Heligoland, Bremen, Walkenburg, The Hague, Rotterdam and Pomigliano. His pilot on operations were Flight Lieutenant Harswicke and Squadron Leader Morhen.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Germany--Hannover Region
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lancashire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Chemnitz
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia)
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Merseburg
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Nordhausen (Thuringia)
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Pforzheim
Germany--Plauen
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Wiesbaden
Germany--Zeitz
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Netherlands--Hague
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Netherlands--Valkenburg (South Holland)
Wales--Bridgend
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1945-01-02
1945-01-05
1945-01-14
1945-01-16
1945-01-17
1945-01-28
1945-01-29
1945-02-01
1945-02-02
1945-02-07
1945-02-21
1945-02-22
1945-02-23
1945-02-28
1945-03-01
1945-03-05
1945-03-06
1945-03-08
1945-03-09
1945-03-11
1945-03-12
1945-03-15
1945-03-16
1945-03-17
1945-04-03
1945-04-09
1945-04-10
1945-04-11
1945-04-18
1945-04-22
1945-04-29
1945-05-01
1945-05-02
1945-05-03
1945-05-31
150 Squadron
1656 HCU
18 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
Cook’s tour
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Catterick
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Ingham
RAF Kirkham
RAF Lindholme
RAF Newmarket
RAF Padgate
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Worksop
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2095/34805/SRAFIngham19410620v090001-Audio.2.mp3
a98ef5763fe7837d104bc05c6d9020b2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Ingham Heritage Group. Wanda Szuwalska
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Wanda Szuwalska and two photographs. She served as a WAAF at RAF Ingham.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RAF Ingham
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GB: Right, we’re on record, good. [Background conversation]
Int: That’s right, yes.
GB: Good, lovely.
WS: I’m having a good look, Halifax, Lancaster.
GB: The only problem, is I’m going to have to come over here cause otherwise you’ll be looking, you won’t be looking straight at the camera.
Int: Right.
WS: Yes. I’m all right, like that?
GB: Lovely, thank you. Yes’ you’re okay.
Int: Smashing, that’s good.
GB: Oh, superb. Right, good morning Wanda, could you first of all tell us please what your name is, where you were born and your date of birth please?
WS: My name is Wanda Szuwalska, I am been born in Poland, in a part of Poland that is Ukraine now, near Lvov, and my date of birth is 18th of January 1923.
GB: Lovely. And could you tell us a little bit about what happened before you came to Great Britain, could you tell us how you got from Poland to Great Britain.
WS: War started on the 1st of September, 1st of September 1939. Britain joined the war 3rd of September, 1939. Hitler advance on Poland, but we had a pact, with England, Poland had a pact with England and with Russia, that they will not invade us and when Hitler advanced, of course our forces were not so strong, Polish forces was not so strong, and they been backing towards the east border of Poland. Unfortunately, we didn’t know anything about it. On the 5th, 17th of September 1939, Stalin Soviet Army advanced to Poland and all our forces were at that border and it took everybody, just, it took hundred to, hundred and twenty thousand Polish soldier would been killed in 1940 at the Katyn Woods in Russia and that’s why we have got plaque in [indecipherable] about this, Polish Army. Now all the other Polish people, just ordinary Polish people - I was born on a farm, we had a farm, big farm and so on - been taken to Russian prison camp. On the 10th of February 1940, that was the first, they took first part of Poland and then in April the same year, 1940, they took the rest of Polish people, about probably about over a million Polish people went to the Russian prison camp, to Siberia, and we been working there on the river doing the hard work in the woods, and on the river. It was terrible when they took us from home, they gave us, they, soldiers came, Soviet soldiers came to our house and say half an hour, get ready, we are taking to the station and you are going somewhere that your life will be better. We didn’t know anything. We had to pack in half an hour. There was five of us, my mother and father: seven people. My youngest brother was eight years old. Well, it’s very difficult to describe how the panic, half an hour to get ready, and it was three o’clock at night, in the morning. We went to this train, it was the goods train, and we been packed for about thirty people in one wagon and we, on those train we went to Russia. We travel about six weeks. We been get, we had some food because we took some food from home, on the way there we been given some hot water. And in that train we had to sleep one next to other, it wasn’t any beds or anything like that, or some blankets, and there was iron stove in the middle of the train and there was a hole in the floor, and the was the hole in the floor in that train was the toilet. And the iron stove, that’s what we could cook something on. Then I arrive to the town Kotlas, and from, the train didn’t go any further and we been put on the sledges, because it was winter, and along river Dvina we went track, pull with the horses, we went to the north like to Arkhangelsk. On the way there was a barrack built on this riverside, banks, and so many people were dropped at one place and then few miles later was another place, and we all disperse in there and we work there. We had nothing. When our food finished, what we took with home, we been only getting a slice of bread, those who don’t work, and we been paid very little to work. My father went to work, my mother couldn’t because, and I was already six, seventeen, sixteen, seventeen and I went to work just to have this one kilogram of bread, not a slice, one kilogram. And we didn’t know what happen, we had no contact with anybody. And suddenly, in 1940, the end of 1940, Hitler advance on Russia and Russia were not prepared to do it so ask England, Mr Churchill, to help. And our diplomats here in London, Mr Sikorsky, and our President was here, Raczkiewicz, they said to Mr Churchill tell Stalin to release all those people who he’s got in Russia’s prison camp and they will be the best [emphasis] people to fight Hitler. And Stalin went to it and we been released. From the prison camps in Siberia, all of them, all of us, and there was General Anders who also was in the prison was also released and he started to make the Army so we can fight Hitler. And we been left on our own then. Going there to Siberia we had these soldiers to take us there and tell us what to do, but when we were released, released, we were left on our own, we had to find a way to go down the south of Russia, near the river Amu Darya, Tashkent, there was Uzbekistan this way right from north to there. We travel on our own, on the trains. We couldn’t buy the ticket because we had no money. But the Russian people, people from the street, they were very helpful; they were not our enemy because a lot of things happen during the Russia different part of thing, they been move people and thing, so they help us and very often there was a good train and the train driver said yes, when you find room just jump in and took us. It was absolutely, people was lost on the way. I know my friend mother, she fell off the train and took arm off and she didn’t have one arm. Eventually we arrive there, where the Polish Army was formed. Now the Army had to have a uniform and the army had to have food; British government supply it all. We were all put into the uniform, British uniforms, and we had food there. Now there was our families who join us, whoever could join, was seventeen years old could join. What about the families? Older people? So naturally British Government also took charge of it, and being a dominion like India, Africa and things like that, all British government, took all the civilian people to make the camps in those parts of India or Africa, which is Rhodesia and other, Uganda and things like that and then we had the training and I was going to fight. So from Russia, to Caspian Sea we all travel to Persia - which is Iran now - and the camps were set in Tehran, which is the capital of Persia, and from then been taken all over the place, and military people move to Egypt, Syria, to Palestine. I was in Palestine for about six months training, in a uniform, Army uniform, British Army uniform, and then we were going to be ready, train, to go to Italy, travel because the war start to advance. And at that time it was beginning of 1943 when the Royal Air Force lost so many people and there was appeal to join, and I was advised by my relative to join WAAFs, to go to England, and I, and I did. After we travel, we travel through Suez Canal to Alexandria and to Mediterranean Sea, Gibraltar Strait, that was our first transport and was a big ship which wounded British soldier were coming to England, and we joined that ship [indecipherable] and this is the very funny thing to say, while we were getting a bit of money in the Army, and living in Palestine, all the girls bought probably silk stockings, and silk underwear and probably perfume because that what we didn’t have for years and when we were going through Gibraltar Strait there was a first transport there was still U-boat would be there and we been advised to put a swimming things. Oh girls, what we are going to do with all the lovely things we bought? So we decided to put everything on and what about perfume? We put about shark would not like it and they take us from the water we won’t lose those lovely things that we crave! You know, once we got that, that is the funny part, because when you are eighteen, war or not war, you just think positive, you, you not frightened at all, you laugh, you haven’t got, you take the best part of it. So we travel, and we also advised, I have to tell you this, this is bit probably funny. We’d been advised, in Army, that going to England, very, the best country in the world, everybody educated, everybody so sophisticated and English ladies are very attractive, very slim – not fat - and after the Russian prison camp when we got the food in the Army we got a little bit of fat on. You have to lose your fat and we all got a lipstick, to put the lipstick so we don’t look different than English ladies. We all had a picture you know, even in, before the war in Poland, we come to very highly intelligent country and all the ladies are lovely dress and gentlemen with hat, and walking stick and so on. Okay. We arrive about five o’clock in the morning to Liverpool.
GB: Can I just stop you, just for one moment? I’ve just realised – we’ll leave the thing running – is it, is that still in focus?
Int: Yes.
GB: I’ve realised that I should have had.
WS: Do you mind if I say all funny things in between? [Cough]
Int: That’s lovely, yes, yes.
WS: [Cough] Because that kept us going, those little things.
GB: The funny things are the best because it’s, you’re just, it’s not like a documentary where you’re just giving information, you’re actually putting your personal side of things on to it. I forgot to put this; this is a separate recorder just for your voice, and I’ve got to remember how it works.
Int: Yes, that was, the adventure, when you are that age, when you’re a teenager, it’s an adventure in a way.
WS: Yes, it was little things very important to us! [Rustling] You know, I have to tell you about this arriving to England. We had to put all the lipstick.
GB: I think that’s incredible, cause we -
WS: And put the hair so we look the same as the English sophisticated ladies!
Int They’re the interesting things because the history has been so well documented that people know a lot of it, but it’s the little things like that are so [emphasis] interesting.
GB: Can you?
WS: Yes, you can take that.
GB: If I put that there? Can you actually see that on the camera cause ideally we don’t want to see that. Is that visible or not?
Int: You can’t see that, no.
GB: You can’t see it.
Int: No.
GB: Right. All this is the latest technology is very, very good.
WS: Yes, okay.
GB: So just move those out the way. So this will record as well, right, let’s see. If I press that.
WS: Okay?
GB: Mmm. Okay. [Pause] Don’t you just love it when it doesn’t happen. Why is it not happening? C’mon. [Pause]
WS: Yes, like technology.
GB: It is technology! Right, that’s probably it now, I think. Right, if I press. Right, we’re now up and running.
Int: We’ve got record have you?
GB: Lovely, great stuff. Right, sorry about that Wanda, could you just tell us when you arrived and where you arrived in England?
WS: And when we arrive about five o’clock in the morning to Liverpool, Liverpool, and then we were coming to get off the ship, and then the first English ladies we saw, [chuckle] it was the ladies who were coming to clean the ship, with the mop, bucket, curlers on the hair, [laughing] and the scarf curled round there and we couldn’t stop laughing because that what we been waiting to see, first English lady! Which of course we seen them later on, they were like we been told. But that was, the people are everywhere the same, they were working class people, they dress what they want to work, when they go to somewhere else to see, so that was very funny. And then from there, from Liverpool station, er, from Liverpool dock, we were taken by the train, to Scotland, near North Berwick, near Edinburgh. And we been put not in the camps, only in big houses. You’re probably too young and you don’t know, but all the big houses, England was so well organised during the war, that I couldn’t think of any other country, all the people [beep] in big houses been asked to give their houses for military people and they live, go and live with their relatives or something small. And that house was very, very big, probably six bedrooms or something like that and we live this, till everything was organised, and from there we went to Wilmslow near Manchester. It was a special training camp to train us to be, and to change us into new uniform, Air Force uniform, and train, everything. We had to learn English and drills and things like that. And from there we been posted to different station and I was posted to Faldingworth where was Polish, 300 Polish Squadron station. My job was there, just the general, Clerk General Duties and I had to do whenever there was something, I landed on the Flying Control, but not being on TR, to talk to the plane, my job on Flying Control at Faldingworth was, when the plane already landed, then my things was to say which dispersal I have to go, and things like that, which was a little job an ordinary, just glad to be on this one so it was very happy with this. But then I was posted from there, for some reason, on to Fighter Command near London, Stanmore, they wanted somebody there and I went there and my job was very good there because I was, every pilot had to, every month, to give their log book to the main office and their every hour of flight, whatever he do, had to be put in to the ledgers, that are still probably somewhere in the offices held back. So this was my job and I knew almost every pilot of the Fighter Command because they personally came to the office, some sent by post but most came personally. So I got the name and then I put them there and that was my duty till the war finished.
Int: Was that just the Polish fighters, or was that all the RAF?
WS: Only Polish, that was the Polish yes, because Polish had their own command, and the commander of the Polish Fighter Command was, I think he was General yes, Jerszy Byam, Jerszy Byam. He was very famous because he took a challenge in 1933, in Poland [indecipherable], it was you know, ’32, ‘33 that was still the years that the plane came round and I even have got hanging there this challenge wrote in this thing: you know this is my whole life I think that! So, then I work there all time, although my husband, which I met him at, we were not married yet, at Faldingworth, we still kept in contact. So at the end of the war I was, I travelled to, mostly I travelled to Faldingworth from London because we lived there in Stanmore, in a civil, in a billet, in houses, but when I came to Faldingworth they were barracks for all my friends and we decided to get married, and I’ve got some pictures. That’s my, there was a second marriage at the station, Faldingworth, in uniform. There is not very many probably marriages in uniform I dare say. Then the war finished and I had to go to civil life. Now, this is my er, you know, forces career, then the civil life comes to different completely story. But I must return to something else: I told you that when we been moving from Russia through Caspian Sea, I, we been on this big boat and then we are approaching a free country because Russia, we were approaching Persia - free country [indecipherable] – and everybody went on the top and everybody was singing and praying and something like that and we couldn’t, even if I tell you now I’ve got the goosebumps; I never forget that moment. And suddenly somebody screams look, this is the first of April, April Fool, I mean all [indecipherable] is that true? Because you know what is April Fool, and that’s why is so important as I say, at the moment, because we are so happy thinking we are going, being free and then suddenly somebody says 1st of April, that was 1st of April 1942, and everybody was so quiet. Is it a joke that we are moving from Russia? No of course, it wasn’t a joke, we just arrive there, but I thought I mention that little thing because they are little points that are so important in all this, to me.
GB: It’s part of your memory and your thoughts, yes, certainly.
WS: Exactly, exactly.
Int: Could you tell us Wanda, a normal typical day for you [emphasis], working at Faldingworth. Can you tell us from getting up in the morning what you had to do, whether it was cold water or hot water you those kind of, the small details. From the minute you woke up in the morning, could you tell us a normal, typical day for you working at Faldingworth.
WS: Yes. We live in a barracks. Those barracks were made from iron and they look like, I don’t know how we call it in English, but we had a saying in Polish: [Polish phrase], it means [Polish word], it means barrel, barrel cut in half and put this, and we say [Polish word] is laugh, laugh, we laugh about it because there was, we all were young and we always laugh and joke, and say little joke and getting up in the morning, I had to get up, now we had to go outside the barrack to a washhouse, and then dress. We had to put our bed, we didn’t have to have beds made up, we had to put, the mattress was in the four squares and we had to put those squares up, and pillow, everything was in a square, and the bed, iron bed was that free, and one little cupboard, everything on to the cupboard, so everything had to be absolutely perfect. We also had on the barracks, I hope you are going to do it in Ingham like it used to be, and I hope to see it, I don’t know when is going to be.
GB: Well we’ve just put the shell on now, the outside curve on, when it’s complete then we would like you to come along because you can tell us exactly where things should be!
WS: I would love that! I can remember everything.
GB: Yes.
WS: So we went there. Now, the thing is, we went to job, different job, well office job, erm, folding the parachutes in this way, laundry because we didn’t wash, of course we didn’t have [indecipherable] so we had to give every week where all our things were marked and we give it to the laundry and we got another thing every week. So people worked there in the canteens, in a mess, you know, those um, there was officers’ mess and there was sergeants mess and just ordinary a, so we had a lot of that. And there was little, not hospital but I even don’t know how to say it in English.
Int: Sick Quarters?
WS: Sick Quarters there and there was some nurses. Any job you can think of, oh, even we had a film shown about twice a week in one of the barrack, and of course after that we had a duty to go and clean this barrack if somebody drop something like that, anything you mention was there. The only thing this: our quarters were a little bit further away from the gentlemen, from the airmen quarters. They had probably the same life. And we had a 300 Squadron, all the girls, you know, that was because once Lancaster goes there’s six or seven people in a Lancaster, so when it didn’t come back, what happened and we knew all [emphasis] the aircrew you see, so we decided that is probably something nothing to do with us, we just, so the girls decided that we have to mark those aircrew that they are different when they go out. I don’t know how that we managed to get navy blue fabric, it was sort of a silk with a white spot, and we made the scarf to all the aircrew so when they went out to somewhere else they put the scarf on and everybody knew that is, you know, 300 Squadron. I don’t know if some people still remember. Mr Szuwalski, he never served anywhere, he was only in Headquarters because he came after the war and erm, so that was, that was I remember was very nice. The only thing is, even with a boyfriend, oh that’s something very funny, I have to tell you [chuckle], I have to tell you! You know there was somebody came to, about twenty years ago somebody came from Embassy from Poland to our Polish Centre and one of our friend, who was here, he was telling that Ambassador from Poland or whatever, that a lot of Polish airmen married English girl. There’s a lot of English girls being married to Polish airmen, because for English girl are more sophisticate, more prettier and something like [indecipherable], when he finish this talk, I couldn’t, I couldn’t, I just, sorry, but I have to say something and of course they couldn’t stop me, I was nobody, I was one of the people, and I say well I’m sorry Mr [indecipherable] but it wasn’t true! Polish airmen married those English girl not [emphasis] because they are prettier, because they are more sophisticated, because they’re better education, only for simple reason WAAFs couldn’t go out in uniform to dance hall, to Palais de Dance and men could go. So when they went there, and start dancing, meet this young lady who was there, civilian, and after the dance they took them back home and the mother was there, sitting on the settee, easy chair, giving a cup of tea in the nice cup, not the one that you have got in the camp, and probably a biscuit, and from one to another it went to the marriage. And what we could give those young men? We could only meet and go to the bushes for a walk if you want to be there [laughing]. I got so much! Because that was true. We could meet only in the canteen. That was all. We could not bring any young men to our barracks, and we couldn’t go to the barracks, and that how it was. When we wanted to meet we could just walk round the camp or, as I say, go a little bit away from the camp, which we could. There was villages and so on. So that is the funny part, I have to tell how it used to be and er, you know when, that’s what all we do in the camp, everything, you mention everything.
GB: What, what did you think of the food that you had at the camp? Could you describe breakfast and lunch and the evening meal?
WS: Yes. I can’t describe very much but one thing I must tell you: if you have been year and a half in Russian prison camp, have nothing to eat, there is nothing that you can say what this is better. Or if you haven’t got a choice probably you will say this, I would like this or this, but everything even today [emphasis], at my age, I eat everything, whatever is being served. And I would have to eat probably two three times not to waste anything. I do not waste food [emphasis]. If it comes to have to throw away, no I have to work so hard, think so hard, this has to be eaten first. Even my grandchildren now, say, Alexander said to me – he knows me so well - said to me babcia, now there’s a lot of things on the table, I can’t eat it all, but tell me which one have to be eaten first so it doesn’t go bad! Honestly, truly, they know me so well, and my stomach. The food was very good. There was a lot of sausages because there was not very much meat as you know, this country was, even after the war there was everything rationed.
GB: Was the food Polish because I know there were Polish cooks at Faldingworth and Ingham, so did they cook?
WS: Yes. They tried, they tried to but there is for instance we never knew English sausages, that for us was completely what we had, meat was the sausages prepared different way. Yes, but as I say, none of, none of us ever [emphasis] thought about the food that is no good. The one thing only – tea! We never had in Poland tea with milk, and here was this, this tea with milk. At first when we start it, we couldn’t drink it, but I tell you something, if I go somewhere for a holiday, and I don’t have tea, first thing when I come back from the holiday to this country I want a cup of tea with milk! You wouldn’t believe it how I love a cup of tea with milk, thinking that we couldn’t even think of it to drink it like that. And now the food. I must tell you something what happened last year in Northolt. We had this reunion and the meal was at the Northolt. Have you been there, at Northolt?
Int: Yes, yes.
WS: So you know those quite expensive: twenty five pounds, and so some of us, I wasn’t, they served sausages, this. I never, what for this money, sausages, but they didn’t know, we should have been told, they was specially was like that to serve us the wartime meal!
Int: Yes, yes, three kinds of sausages wasn’t there, yes, yes.
WS: Yes! You been there so you know that story.
Int: Yes, yes.
WS: Of course we been always having this Northolt and then the reunion at the POSK, Polish Centre in London, and of course the meal was Polish there and then we have it on the station, and this is going to be on the station next, 5th of September, going to be on station, and they didn’t tell us that that was the meal. And my daughter was with me and she really, you know, she was surprised that what we eat, yes, but as I say, it was lovely, I liked it, no, but nobody, but somebody was little bit surprised that was sausage for the money we pay. This year is also twenty five pounds [beep] and we have to do it very quickly, we have to be there, we have to say that we are coming the end of this month. This is a little bit, because it's three months later, how do I know, at my age.
GB: What you’ll be doing.
WS: What happen to me in three months it doesn’t matter, whatever happen I will just, how I get there. So no, the food was very good, but you cannot ask, if you ask this question of any of the Polish people who been to Russian prison camp they will never, never [emphasis] will anybody tell you that the food was bad. There is no such a thing as bad food.
GB: What did you normally have for breakfast? Can you remember?
WS: I think [pause] did we have some porridge, I think there was porridge there: the porridge was very popular, which was good. There was porridge, probably bread, maybe the toast. I cannot remember exactly, but as I say, food was never important to me, as long as I wasn’t hungry and it’s still [emphasis] is not important for me.
GB: And did you, you obviously worked to bring the planes in and the planes quite often flew at night, didn’t they. So were your duties?
WS: Oh yes, the duty has to be twenty four hours, wherever there was a duty, twenty four hours.
GB: Right, okay, so when you were doing your, perhaps you can explain a little bit to us about how your duty, how a normal twenty four hour duty would be for you. What, how you would kind of work, and where you would work, to bring the aircraft in to their, to their um, their dispersals, if you can remember.
WS: Yes. We knew, we knew exactly when, when they were flying because there was some tannoy at the station, you know, special person, everybody, all the crew been in the barracks staying and then when this, when this man came to the barrack all the crew knew that they have to go to the briefing room and from there they been taken by car, which all of the girls were drivers and they be taking some, each little car had six men, in the car. It wasn’t car, it was bigger like, it was not even like your car here, it was sort of like an open -
GB: Like a van type of thing, or a small lorry.
WS: And they would taken to their plane, they knew which plane they go, and they mostly go in the evening, some light, so we all had a duty, so many hours in the office, sitting in the office waiting or doing whatever they want to be doing, the same on the little, on the next door in the hospital, they would be twenty four, they always have to be somebody, maybe not so many people, but there was always somebody on duty there. When anybody wanted to be, you know, alarms something happen that they have to wake up in the morning so the tan –
GB: Tannoy.
WS: Tannoy came, loudspeaker, all over the station and everybody would wake up and knew what’s going on and be doing their duty. But I would say that was, you know, can’t remember even, but that just how it was, you to do. I didn’t, when I was at Flying Control, I never, I don’t believe I ever had this night duty there. Somehow the plane used to come in the morning, light, because they flew.
GB: They flew through the night.
WS: Through the night.
GB: And then they arrived back in the morning.
WS: Come in the morning. Nobody hardly ever I can’t remember now exactly because always something was going on on the station, and we always sort of walk to the mess for a meal. We never sat in the barracks, we have to have something – go there, go there, something we always been very, very busy, if we didn’t have anything then we learn English, we had to read, we had so many hours to go to library. Everybody sort of had to know what to do at any time.
GB: In the, in the mess hall that you went to, for the food, did the WAAFs have to sit separate from the men or could you sit wherever you wanted?
WS: No separate.
GB: All separate.
WS: All separate. Yes, we had to sort of separate and I tell you very, very funny. Officers have their lunch a bit early than other people, and the officers mess, we had to pass officers mess, and when they come out we had to salute, [whisper] we didn’t want to salute, so we were so annoyed because it just happened that all the officers came from the mess and we had to pass and we kept saluting to them [slapping sound], and we didn’t like very much [laugh] because we had to do it. But it wasn’t so bad because we had to salute from, from the squadron leaders up, not to the squadron leader, so that was, that was thing like that. And again, I can’t answer about the food as I say, food is least important to me.
GB: And did you have Polish WAAF officers as well? There were some?
WS: Yes, yes, we had Polish WAAF officers; everything [emphasis] on the station was run by Polish people, but we had a liaison officer, English lady who was English WAAF, liaison officer, so probably this, our commander Polish WAAF, she was always with this English, not you know, everything, whatever, she was tall, she was there. We had all Polish, that’s right. And there was this, we, well we didn’t meet many, I met only in Stanmore, when I was in Stanmore I met English WAAFs, you know. Mostly we been in Polish station and things like that.
GB: And you mentioned earlier on that in the evenings you tended to go to the canteen, the club.
WS: Yes.
GB: Can you tell us a little bit about what that was like and any funny stories you might have as well, from the canteen?
WS: Um, yes, we went there and we met, there was all man and woman, we talk. I even don’t remember that we ever had anything, any dancing there. No, there was no music, that wasn’t, no. So we just talk and have a cup of tea, or something like that and just talk and go to the barrack. And we had, because it was well, eight or ten in the barracks sometimes, two or three times, and what a lovely time there, telling the joke, reading the book and whatever you know, laughing and so on. The barracks were, well there was no separate just all the beds one way and another, and then, it was lovely: we were young and we didn’t care. Mostly girls, lot of jokes and funny things and somebody said Poland, remember what it was, which, talking about Poland, about home, what happened and everybody want to know how it happened. Somebody very funny. So that’s how we spent the time.
GB: And did you as young ladies, young girls, when you were back in the barrack blocks did you do things like sewing and knitting and things like that? Things that perhaps in those days ladies would do more so than these days?
WS: No.
GB: No. Nobody was.
WS: We didn’t make, I never no, no, we never made anything. No, not sewing. Oh there was sewing people, there was, I think Mrs Kaminska was in a group, there was a machine, sewing machine if there was something to repair, to sew, sometimes maybe parachute, it depends who it was. I was um, I wasn’t in this group because something cooking, cook and Mrs Kaminska was I think in the sewing, I don’t know if Mrs [indecipherable] was doing, but I was Clerk, GD, Clerk, General Duty, and that was my job: Clerk General Duty, and I always doing something for the officers here and there, and yes I never been either, something also, as I say, giving the parachute out and taking them in and something, because parachute has to be folded special way and things like that.
GB: So did you get some training in how to do the parachutes then?
WS: Yes, everybody got the training, even me when I was doing General Duty, I had office training, what to do, and I was typing: I have to learn to type. And maybe, I don’t know why I was chosen, but you see, you didn’t choose what you want to do, you been told you go on this course, you go on this course and that’s it’s. You are probably good at that job probably there was some changes but usually you had nothing to say. Wherever you been told to go, you go, that is the uniform.
GB: Can you tell us a little bit now about, if that’s possible, about how you met your husband and leading through to the day you got married, and to talk about that, if you don’t mind talking?
WS: I knew my husband from Poland; we went to the same church. And then we’d been in Siberia in different camp about five miles away, so we usually kept in touch with all the people that we knew. Sat, Sunday if we don’t work, or if there was one day that you didn’t work, you probably could walk from one camp to another – we could not escape from there because the camps were on the river banks and one big and very, very wide and very fierce river, Dvina, you couldn’t swim across that river, was impossible, you know, you would drown. And another thing on the other side was woods, a very big woods we used to go to, nobody could escape there because those woods probably would go up to the sea, I have no idea, but we used to go to the woods to collect the mushrooms, the wild mushroom, and probably some um, how you call fruit, not fruit.
GB: Nuts and things like that?
WS: Like nuts and nut and blackberries, something like that.
GB: Wild fruit, yes.
WS: That’s right, and we went to these woods and I, this what I said, we had to be very careful, keep together because there was wolves and things like that but you just go, not very far. And one of my relatives even my, my grand, my grandfather’s sister, that’s right, my younger sister of my grandfather, she was there – because they took whole villages in to Russia [cough], and she was lost and we never found her. She probably was just attacked by wolves, there was wolves we had to be very careful and she probably just wander on her own. So of that I sure, er, you know, it is, you know you have to live, if you’re like that you have to live for the day to day, and you don’t bother what happen to you the next day, you go wherever you have to go, you just most of the time like the automat, you have to push there, go there, not very much safe.
GB: So you met back up with your husband again at Faldingworth did you then?
WS: [Cough] Sorry. I met my husband, and as I say, I don’t know where he is, I knew he came to England, but I didn’t know what station they were on, but no, he wasn’t just anybody, I just like more, this girl came for the holiday and tell me who your relatives and his name is Jan Kavell, and he’s very handsome and he’s enquired about you! Oh so I just, and then we met, he used to come to Faldingworth to see me, came when he had a, because we had a two weeks’ holiday or sometimes we can have a out pass for the weekend. So, he came to meet me, nothing, nothing very much happened, and then I used, that’s how I went to Cranwell, or I wouldn’t know the Cranwell station, so I went to Cranwell station there for the day and then when I went to London, I don’t think he ever came to London, but I came to Faldingworth because I had lot of friends there, and we just become a very, very good friends, and that was all. He was quite handsome. And we never planned, there was nothing like you think now: you go, you get engaged, you meet parents, there was no parents no, there was just nobody. Then when the war was ending we all [emphasis] knew the war is finishing, the things like that, it was relaxing on the station, and we would be discharged, and what do we do? We were already told that if the war were finished we would be discharged, would have to find a job, we have to live, to find somewhere to live. Now I wouldn’t even know where to start. We just, we were just, and he was in the same position and he said what do you think about this? And I said, so he said we both, wouldn’t it be better to get married and together we would [indecipherable] and I like him very much and he’s quite handsome, so you see the thing is, you want, you have to think what is best for you. And then we got married. And, went honeymoon, where did we go to honeymoon? I think to Blackpool, yes to Blackpool, and I was still in the service and then I was pregnant, and then what I’m going to do? Still in uniform and still on the camp and knowing we were already married, and he was in the camp, somewhere else, no, just there. And then he have to be discharged and where are you going to live? Now, how [sigh], you know and I think now, and where we going to live. So we simply had to go, knock at the door, like you knocked this morning, and say have you got a room to spare to let? That’s what we used to do. And I must say that English people were very, very good. You know I, when I think now, somebody knocks on my door have you got a room to spare to live, I have, but why I should I let this room, I don’t need it, you see. And when I think back, and then he ride on the bicycle to the farmhouse, and there was this farmhouse, and he just said my wife will be soon discharged, she’s expecting a baby, and those Mr and Mrs Smith, Dorothy and Charles Smith, they say yes, they will take me. You know they is so good at taking me friend, and no farming, [beep] and my husband is still was at Faldingworth about two miles and he had to go by bicycle, he was living out pass, was so much money for it, but he stay all day at the camp and he was still flying and they were flying to Italy to bring the service people back to England so it wasn’t bombing or anything like that, but that was flying to bring the people back and then he was in Italy in January when my daughter was born. And I was at this farm: no mother, no father, my husband three days I don’t know about when he flew to Italy, there was a fog so they couldn’t fly back and this farmer, took me in the car and he took me in the car from, to Scunthorpe I think that was, nearest hospital was Scunthorpe, and there was such a fog that Dorothy drive this car and he was going to go with a hurricane lamp in front of the car so she know whichever she is going, ha, right, so she doesn’t go into the ditch! And they arrived there, we arrived, she was drive all night, probably four hours, from midnight, arrive there and probably I was there about two hours, my daughter was born. Those people took me there, and left me there and went back home. And I’m there on my own, the baby was born, and we never talked, my husband, how in case there is a girl, because my husband didn’t want a girl, he wanted a boy. And we know all the names of the boy but not of the girl. And this is three days and nurse say you have, we have to register your baby, and the name. And I didn’t know what the name, I had to choose my name and I wanted her to say I think something like Christina, okay, Christina, and just as the nurse started my birth he came to the ward, he just arrive. And I say oh my husband! Because I said Christina and he said no it’s going to be Jadwiga, okay, Jadwiga, and that was on the register, I didn’t, I was on my own, all the time. Now it’s impossible to think about this, nobody, only just English people was so nice. My husband was discharged, every airman got, my husband wasn’t officer, he was a Flight Sergeant, and those people got fifty pounds, a lot of, that was a lot of money, fifty pounds at ’47. That was ’47. Yes ’47 now. And fifty pounds we had live somewhere, and find a job. So Nottingham was the place with such a lot of jobs there was such a big industry and now there is nothing. So how you get, you must live somewhere, you must get a house. So his three friends and him; two hundred pound together, we have got two hundred pound together, so he go and buy the house, put two hundred pounds deposit, the house was six hundred pounds on the Blue Bell Hill Estate, very bad part Nottingham and with this house there was one big bedroom, an attic bedroom and a small bedroom. No bathroom. So they all going to live with us, and at that time there was two pounds a week from the board and the bed, two pounds a week. So, they gave this, they say we not going to live with you and instead of paying you two pounds for the board and thing, we are going to give you one pound and after a year we will be back what we put with the deposit the house was hold in my husband’s name. Women didn’t count at that time and it was so easy to get the mortgage because he’d started to work in a, there was iron works somewhere near Nottingham, it’s not there any more, and he got the mortgage, but he had to earn a week the same what your mortgage is by month and that was four pound, and he used to earn four pound a week, got the mortgage and we lived with those lodgers, and they gave me one pound, every week, to buy the food; everything was on the ration. Are you interested what was then?
GB: Yes, yes. Please carry on. Are you okay still to carry on talking?
WS: Yes.
GB: Do you need a break?
WS: No, no. I just tell you now what you do, you got, I’ve got, another baby was born, Alicia, and I’ve got one small bedroom, so we stay with the small bedroom on the single bed with my husband and the two cots for the children. I think there was one cot and one was just a pram that lifted the top and that was all. Now there was no, no bathroom, so the men had to shave in the kitchen, get up in the morning early, shave in the kitchen. The bathroom was not very far [indecipherable] just probably five minutes to walk, that we can go to the bathroom once or twice a week, that was good. And then everything was on ration, but there was something like you could buy sheep head without the ration, because you got only one pound of meat on those, so we bought this. Then there was the Sleighthome market which still exist, wasn’t very far, so you go to the Sleightholme market, at the end of, if they close about one o’clock, or two o’clock on Saturday, and you go at that time, and then the vegetables and things wouldn’t last because Sunday, everything was closed on Sunday, so the tradesman he used to throw away some in the basket or sell it very, very cheap. And that’s how you try to get the vegetables and things. And then you could get allotment. They were very popular allotments, I got good allotment and I had my own you know, another allotment, I had onions, carrots something like that and because I was born and lived on farm I knew exactly, I even had here, I had two years ago everything [emphasis] in my garden what I need for myself, but not any more, I can’t do it any more. So that’s how we carried on, and you could buy tripe, you know what’s tripe?
GB: Yes, yes.
WS: And that what was, but know what cook, tripe, you could buy a brain, you don’t buy them now, I don’t know that they sell brain now, and you buy brain, which was very cheap, and sometimes you could get a kidney cheap, I don’t know there’s the offal, you could get them without ration, so that’s how you manage, and I don’t know if you ever had the brain and you know how to prepare it? No. Okay, so I’m not going to go into it [chuckling] because I know, because when we killed a pig or something on the farm where I live, every bit [emphasis] had been used one way or another so I know. And I can remember going with my daughters to the butcher and we stand there, and there was a kidney, and I wanted to buy this kidney and my daughter said don’t buy the kidney! I think they learn already about it! But what goes through the kidney, I don’t want to eat kidney! Okay, fair enough, but they love brain and this gentleman, this butcher, said do you want the brain, yes I love brain. I make it like a brain fried and I add to it, like a scrambled egg, it was very good, I l love brain, and this butcher said well, if you think what’s going through the kidney and you don’t want to eat it, you know what’s going through your brain all your life and you still like it! I shall never forget how he say that – you know a lot of things happen in life! So that’s how we lived through this. One egg a week and I think four ounces of bacon a week, and of course men are working so most of the thing was, but er, I know how to cook. I made my own pasta, everything. I could buy flour and make own pasta, there is lot of Polish food that you can cook without meat because now you haven’t concentrate on meat. It was very, very hard that winter but I must say, when we moved to this Bluebell Hill house we had no furniture, nothing, we had just blankets with us, and the lady across the road, two days later knocks to the door and she said, well you moved to this house but I never see the van with the furniture. I ask her in and we had the orange boxes which, and the two boxes were put there and two boxes here and we sat on there covered with something and she looked at this. She brought us two chairs and a coffee table too. You know I just, I just can not [emphasis] praise enough how this English people in this country, act during the war. Even go on two weeks’ holiday. Men can go anywhere, Blackpool, anywhere, but where the young lady goes on holiday - in uniform. But there was appeal for the British people take WAAFs, and I have in Wool, Wool Hampton, Mr and Mrs Grainger, who had daughter probably same age, and we went for, two of us and another friend, we went there for two years for a holiday, living in their house, they fed us, they took us wherever they could to show us the park or something, maybe to cinema and that how English people were good, you know.
GB: That’s a lovely story.
WS: You know, I just, I don’t know if it, people nowadays would do anything. No, I feel now, I’m living, I’m the foreigner here. I’ve got lovely people, but nothing to talk and to say cup of tea and we talk about it. Maybe because I talk about the war all the time, and the politics. To me politics, politics hah, I mean I’ve got Polish there, television, and I sat here, there and watch everything now. I mean Cameron came, very good, but I don’t believe that, I believe there should be opposition I don’t [emphasis] believe that one party should rule because it’s kind of dictatorship, you know, but I think Cameron was good last five years, but there is Polish elections and they electing, they electing a President in Poland and none of them goes to war wanted to be President, and none of them won, so it’s going to be in another fortnight another election.
GB: Can you, sorry, can I take you back for a moment to 1945 and obviously we’ve just celebrated VE Day seventieth anniversary. Can you remember what you did on VE Day in 1945? Was there a big party on the station?
WS: No, I don’t think there was any big party or anything like that. Not in, not on a Polish station.
GB: No, no.
WS: Because at that time, being Polish, we already knew that we haven’t got a free Poland. Already in 1943 and then Yalta, that was agreement, Yalta Agreement, I think in 1945, that Stalin, that Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin together, they ruled the world. They sold Poland to Stalin and half of the Germany, as in all the Germany was divided and this, Russia took this part of Poland and then we got the territory from Germany; we knew already. On the Polish station there was no celebration and we nowhere to go, now this is, that that’s politic again I don’t know if I should say it.
GB: You say what you like!
WS: You see politics again. Mr Churchill was a very, very good for English people, very good. He care for British people, but he would have sent us back to Poland which was not free Poland. But Mr Churchill like Stalin, they used to like to drink together, and he believed, I won’t say anything rude, he believed because Stalin said yes, Poland’s going to be free and Churchill believed in this and Mr Churchill would definitely send us back, like he sent one Ukrainian Division. But just for us, fortunately, Atlee came, Churchill did not win just after the war. And Atlee, he was Labour, and he, he knew what’s going on, he probably was, I don’t know, should he be more clever, more politically minded or whatever, but Atlee decide that we can stay in this country; we have no free country to go – we can stay. And he also allowed all our civil people who live in Africa, in India, or wherever they were, come and join the forces people here in England, and my family came in ’47 and I think my mother, father, my sister, younger brother and the cousin who’s mother died in Russia and my parents. My grandparents died in Russia and so, I, you know, so they came and lived in Nottingham. Of course they didn’t have any money whatsoever, but children who served in, during the war here, like they came to us and we had to keep them, yes we had to keep them. We had to give them the shelter, they lived first in American camps, you know the American gone back after the war, so they lived there but we had to give them a little bit of money and the camp they got some food I believe, for such a [indecipherable]. So, but there was one thing: there was a lot of work in that camp [beep] I mean lace things and sewing, and I started, I had to go to work, and again, I had a little girl, Jadwiga started school, five, but the other was three and I had to go to work and nobody can look after the baby. So the next door people had a child the same age, and for no reason the next door lady said yes, you have to go to work, wok. I stay at home, your little girl can stay all day with me, now just like that. Now, can you imagine anybody now, doing anything like that?
GB: I think they would want to be paid wouldn’t they, I think yes, yes.
WS: Yes. Why should they put, they offer, you know, I have no words to describe it, I even starting not understanding how it used [emphasis] to be, helping everywhere wherever you went. Now even, my daughters went to school and they had to cross [indecipherable] road, was busy road, I had to go to work to different place so they took, six years old and five years old, or something like that, had to hold the hand and go across the road and there was this one lady who always waited for them and took them across the road, and I didn’t know anything about it, and how it was, that something there that this lady was standing on the corner, I just can’t, I only can remember and she said did you know those two little girls in brown uniform going to school? I haven’t seen them for two or three days, and I said who are you? And she said well I was always taking them across the road. And then when I came home and the girls were there I said why didn’t you tell me? They didn’t think anything about it. This lady was standing there and taking those two little girls across the road. Day after day. Now this something, I don’t know, I can’t, I just don’t know, it sort of, those people are saints or something like that; that’s how it was, that’s how. And I had to go to work. You see, again, going to church and one older lady, Polish lady, said are you look, maybe you be looking for some work, I say yes, I [indecipherable] she said look, I am a schoolteacher from Poland but I went to work for this factory [indecipherable] and I’m there as a machinist, I didn’t know anything about machining but I learned and I like it very much, and she advise me, from nowhere she advised me, go there, you’ve got two little girls and you sew. You know how to machine, you be able to and that and progress. And I took that advice and I went there and of course the manageress say we are not teach you, we cannot afford to teach, you have to know how to machine. Naturally I said yes, I know how to machine. I didn’t, but I lie to get the job. Again, I have to say, I came, the first time I see the electric machine, you put the foot down and then, if I put this foot down and that machine was moving I don’t know when will turn up with it! But the girls in the factory they were straight away round and teach me: no you put the foot down and just that. And then when I got a job to do it I didn’t know anything about it, they told the girls to one side and another side – help! Have you got to do this and this, and this, for nothing, just like that, and I learned very quickly, because I think if you have to learn quick you do learn quick, if you don’t have to you don’t bother. I believe in that. And I learned very quick and believe me, I work in this factory for thirty three years and after twenty years I landed as the factory manager and the head of production. I went up and up and up: I knew how to do it, the girls like me. I finished working about twelve years ago and I still keep in touch with my girls [indecipherable] and we meet once or twice a year here come, and have a good chat.
GB: That’s very nice.
WS: Which is very, very good. And I can remember we had a manager there and he used to talk to a dictograph, he used to be well educated, his English was very good and those girls, I remember he said hello girls, if you got more surplus shuttle, you have to give it to Wanda, our supervisor, there. Wanda, what does he mean surplus? What is that? I say if you got more than six, something like that, you know. And when I came the manageress, they love it because I spoke their language, I learned from those girls from the factory. I didn’t learn in any colleges or anything like that, and anything I said they understood me because we spoke the same language, it was lovely, and I work there all this time and then when the factory, intentionally, had to finish, he had two son and he’s got enough money and [indecipherable]. I couldn’t get any job because everybody in this trade in Nottingham knew me as manageress and they wouldn’t let, wouldn’t give me a job as the machinist and I wanted the machinist job. But those were young men who used to work for us, used to learn from us, came to work, and I like them, he was George [indecipherable], and he opened his little factory and he gave me a job, first to go round, to ask how to arrange this and then he gave me a job five hours a day, um, as a supervisor, examiner thing and I am very grateful that he gave me this job. I worked till I was seventy three years old going every day to the factory because I loved the work, not because I probably need the money, but I love the work. But what did happen, I managed to buy this house, in West Bridgford, so on my own, because my husband died when he was six, fifty nine okay, so I managed to buy this house, so this house is because I love work, and my grandson Richard who is here, although he is well educated at Nottingham University but he can’t get a job you see! My daughter, older daughter, she was quite a businesswoman, he was brought up spoilt, one son. Richard left one job, left another, I said Richard, you go, get up in the morning and say, oh I hate this one, no! You should say I love the work, I meet my friends there, we should talk about this and the other, [cough] and he learn, he learned now, after about four years. He’s forty two and he never loved his any work, but he learned eventually to say that he loved his work. He won’t get work anywhere if he left three, four works and he's forty two and how can he get the work! So I’ve been drilling and drilling and drilling, tell him how he have to say I love my work and after a year or two, you believe you love it! And I believe in it, yes. [Cough]
GB: So, that’s fascinating to hear what you did after the war, and when you left the Polish Air Force. We’ll probably kind of come to a close with what we’re chatting about now in a couple of minutes.
WS: [Cough] Yes.
GB: Because you’ve been fantastic, we’ve been talking for almost two hours, well you’ve been talking, we’ve been listening!
WS: I’ll bring you a drink shall I?
GB: Oh right. Yes please!
WS: Just the water, [cough].
GB: We still on?
Int: Yeah.
GB: Good.
WS: Can I get you [indecipherable] [Cough] [Bang] Okay.
Int: Which is off?
GB: The record is still on – oh, it’s on the other side.
Int: Oh is it.
GB: We’ll just leave it running and then we can, because it can all be edited.
WS: Now I just give you both a drink. That is a very nice drink. That keeps me going. Here.
GB: Oh right, thank you very much!
WS: That keeps me going.
Int: Very kind. Thank you very much.
WS: Because to make the tea takes a long time. [Cough]
GB: Oh yes, yes.
WS: [Cough] Okay. Now, you ask me some questions.
GB: It was just some more questions we were just going to just ask you to describe about obviously your time here with the erm, as a Polish WAAF, you know, especially at Faldingworth, and it’s always the everyday things, the things that ordinary, that happen that you don’t think about, like if you imagine your day to day, what you start with and how you go through your day cause they’re the things that are often not written down anywhere in books and things. They will often talk about the flying that happens from an RAF station, but not the small everyday things. You mentioned the fact there was um, there was a laundrette or people that did the laundry for you, you talked about the barracks where you had all the beds and the little locker. Obviously during the winter it must have been very cold in the barracks was it – or not?
WS: It was cold but we had in the barracks I think two iron, round iron stoves.
GB: The stoves.
WS: Those iron stoves I think. But we had er, warm clothes, you know, we had the warm underwear, we had warm stockings, I don’t think, I don’t think there was very much at all because every day was the same thing, there was nothing different, every day was the same and when I had a weekend we had a pass out we went to Market Rasen or Lincoln, and just for the day. I think we had to pay for the bus – no we didn’t have to pay, no. In London also we, in uniform we didn’t pay for the underground train, or a penny or something like that, but it was routine, every day the same; nothing really much happened. The only thing happened was you had a boyfriend, if you wanted to meet somebody you just went for a walk and that was all. You went to cinema, nothing very much exciting ever [emphasis] happened in the camp.
GB: You said there was a cinema on camp, they showed some films on camp?
WS: Yes, there was a film I think twice a week you could have got to cinema, and it was very, wait a minute, how did cinema work? I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody turned that at the back.
GB: But you must, I presume, especially being Polish, and obviously with your Catholic, the Catholic religion, there was a church on camp was there?
WS: Yes, there was.
GB: And a priest?
WS: A priest, every camp, yes, and I was married at that, the camp with the same priest who was our priest at the camp, yes that was. Again you see I didn’t mention it because that was routine. There is, because every Sunday you have to go to church, and that is full stop and nothing to say about it, nothing, you go to church, finish! Like you get up in the morning and go to breakfast and go to church, now all May, May is the month especially dedicated to Our Lady, and in the evening everybody who were not in the duty go to this church. There was a chapel rather, you know, a barrack also or something, chapel, we go there but as I say, this is in our, that’s what we do. Here I haven’t got a car but I take a taxi every Sunday to church and back because I can’t, the car, the buses are not so good, frequent sometimes, and at my age sometimes it’s too difficult to go, take two buses to get to the Polish church. I have got the church here, also it was Bridgford, but there is this church you have to walk to that church, about fifteen minutes, and I cannot walk any more fifteen minutes, but taking a taxi here, so I get my taxi and go to my Polish church – not that I don’t understand, the only thing is I still meet the people that I knew for years days in and days out, and I like to meet these people, to be with the people, but this church is wonderful also. I met new people and they are willing to take me to this church here, but I prefer to go there because meeting the people that I knew, but the lady who are on the committee and they undertook the part to take me to church, I say tell the lady tell the committee on your report that I like you to come here for an hour, you know, and talk, because nobody talk to me, somehow I can manage go here and there as much as I go, I do my own shopping.
GB: Could you tell us a little bit, if you’d like to, about the day you got married? It would be really interesting to hear, at Faldingworth, the day you got married, you know, tell us about how the whole day went if you could please.
WS: Now, yes, we decided to get married. We went to the priest, and priest set the date when we going to marry. Actually I, I tell you something, I didn’t even think, there was, yes I was going to get married because I liked my husband very much, he was very handsome, it was not only love, but I think he was very handsome and so many girls said this, how handsome he is, and that made me think. I knew him from Poland, I know his family very well, so it all sort of fit together, but then I knew that I cannot be dressed in anything else because all I had was this uniform, okay but I even forgot that I had to have flowers and then one my girl: Wanda you never told about the flowers! I say no, I don’t know, do you have to have the flowers, they say yes, yes and they run out and got some wild flowers and they say you can make photograph or something if you want to see, so wild flowers and they brought me, gave me this bouquet! That’s right, and that was, oh and my husband was more sort of, oh you want to, men always know what to do and I think we went, no, we went to Lincoln for our, after the wedding for the honeymoon but not, just for three days and people in a hotel in Lincoln I think it was his job, and um, and then a girls talk, help, sort of told, I didn’t think, I just didn’t think what’s going on, I didn’t know where my parents are, I hadn’t been in contact with my parents, they were in Africa, in Rhodesia, but the girls were good again, I’ve got a lot of nice people I think I’m very lucky in a nice way [beep]. Yes, they made me a reception, they went to the canteen and the officers in the canteen said yes, and the little office near, there was a chapel and there was another part, a big room where they meet, I don’t know, the priest meet and somebody, and they make little reception for me, brought everything, I didn’t have to do anything [emphasis]. The girls brought me those flowers, gave me, and then there was tea and there was even a bottle of wine. Aha, how the wine was, I can remember now. Those people, they, the people who flew to Italy, to bring the service people back to England, at that time they could buy wine in Italy, I think, I don’t know if they was officially or they did something, so they brought the wine for the reception and again, friends of my husband, and probably he had a bottle of wine and there was wine and there was sort of all together we didn’t have a family, so been family, we just spoke to anybody as it was family. We didn’t know these things family or something, there was, everybody was the same.
GB: And who gave you away that day? Because obviously your father couldn’t be there.
WS: No, nobody gave me away!
GB: You didn’t have an officer to perhaps give you away, no?
WS: No! Nobody gave us away at all.
GB: No.
WS: We just came into the chapel, on our own, and a lot of people came to get the wedding because there was announcement on the tannoy that there is a wedding on and they came and I was not given away. I didn’t even know about giving, I didn’t even think about it. When I think about it, everything had to be so, we you have to do it because otherwise what’s going to happen? You have to.
GB: Were the people at the station, on the RAF station at Faldingworth, were they excited when they heard there was a tannoy that somebody was getting married?
WS: Yes, yes, they were excited about it: they came!
GB: Because you must have had a lot of friends, and your husband must have had a lot of colleagues and friends.
WS: Yes, yes, everybody came and just, just took it as a normal part, there was nothing you know, special, there was nothing could be any special.
GB: But you remember back now, and you think with a smile that it was a very nice day.
WS: It was beautiful day, yes, everything was done for me, and that was, but then my, my other, friend of my husband, he got married, but a bit later, about a year later, and she managed to get a, she was WAAF, my friend, but she managed to get a costume suit somewhere, in Lincoln. How did they manage there I don’t know but there was some way if you want. As I say, we made those scarves and how we did manage I don’t know. Somebody always got a way.
GB: That’s lovely. It’s nice to know that even in the war time that you could have, with very little kind of um, money and things, but you and your friends and your husband could make a lovely day for you both to remember.
WS: Yes, we had a little, because we had this little pay, I can’t even remember now, it was very little money because there was nowhere to spend the money! You didn’t have it. You went to cinema in the camp, you know, and you didn’t go anywhere out. How can I go out, to Lincoln or somewhere, unless I went to museum, or somewhere to the special play, but then you didn’t because you stay in the camp – you like how it was.
GB: Yes, it was like little Poland then, was it?
WS: Yes. Like little Poland. We had plenty books to read, as I say even now I like lot of [indecipherable]. I’ve got a few books, even little things about jokes, telling jokes, telling how it was, I mean there’s a lot of things that we could do.
GB: Just one more thing before we can perhaps finish it, you said your main, one of your main jobs as an admin clerk was to do, tell the aircraft when they came back which dispersal to go on.
WS: Yes, yes.
GB: Did you know which one they had to be on, or?
WS: Yes, yes, I knew, I had to know.
GB: Because the ground crew were specific to one aircraft were they?
WS: Yes, and often I used, I wonder if I was doing, there was a girl on the R/T who used to speak to the plane on the, when they flew, where they were she used to speak, and then I have to ring the caravan. There was a caravan standing at the end and there was a weather forecast and that, all this thing, and I used to ring them and ask for the weather, which is the wind and I had to pass it to that girl on the paper where she was standing there, and when the plane approach she used to say the wind is so and so and you take this and this runway from this, because plane have to come down not with the wind, only against the wind.
GB: Yes, against the wind, yes.
WS: Against the wind, yes. And then she told them and as soon as they touched the thing, so I said G for George you, you taxi to this dispersal and they did it, yes.
GB: Did you have, did you have numbers or letters for each dispersal? How did you know which one they were?
WS: We had a number to each dispersal and we knew the number of the plane. Every plane had a number like G for George, A for Anna or something, so every plane we knew.
GB: And this was like on a, was this like a board or a map in your office or something?
WS: Yes, it was like a board on a map yes, and also how they knew because when the plane was approaching, the plane approach and say the name of the plane, we are here or there and approaching, something like that, and there was one thing, one of the plane or this was, I even never got a disc for this one, from the, because we have got a cemetery, Polish War Cemetery at Newark, I don’t, you know about that? Right. And there was one plane who came and actually, not on the station but very close to the station, fell; everybody was killed, six. And then I had this interview, this Polish man, here, and then he took me to Newark, and he wanted me, to show this grave of those six men who was killed, but I didn’t know where they, because, where they been buried, I probably been at the funeral there but I didn’t know, so it took me two hours work all together when he, and I’ve got it all together on the film, I don’t know, he gave me a disc and I’m looking, I’m going each grave to find out. And I didn’t know exactly what the name were. So, by looking at every grave I saw those six grave together with the same date.
GB: Yes.
WS: And all other had different date, different things, and I found them eventually, and I look at that disc because this new thing you been saying, I’ve got all the apparatus for everything as you know, here, there and another upstairs and I’ve got all the discs, I can’t use it. I’ve got about forty tapes here and there is machine; can’t use anything, just can’t use anything. I can not get any young people who would help me, you see this is the trouble.
GB: There are companies now that will change video tapes.
WS: I know.
GB: They have a big machine with the videos on one side and DVDs on the other.
WS: Yes, but what good is it if I can not get into this, I can’t understand, but as I say, none of the young now, see the next door, seventeen and fifteen, young man, next door. Now in the, been the same as the people were during the war here and things like that, they would say yes, we pop you in camera an hour and when it finish, or when it finish press this button.
GB: Yes.
WS: No, no, not even my nephew, but he lives a little bit, probably twenty minutes to get here. My nephew. I ask him to be here today, this morning.
GB: Yes.
WS: I said who is coming and so on. Say work. No, I don’t know because they’ve got a big car, thirty six thousand pound, they have the caravan, they’ve got [indecipherable], they’ve got, they haven’t got time for me! They’ve got such a lot of money, well off, so why should they bother. He goes out, you know, meets a friend, they out for lunches, but I’m still very poor, I haven’t got very much money, I’ve got enough money, but on your own where can you go?
GB: But you’ve got your house happiness and your memories – and your health, which is quite obvious, I mean for a lady, dare I ask your age, how old are you?
WS: Yes, yes! I’ll be ninety two in January, ninety two in January.
GB: If I am as, if I am as well and as healthy as you when I am ninety two I will be extremely pleased, especially with the full life that you have had, and for good or for bad, and the happy and the sad times, for you still to be here talking to us: it’s wonderful!
WS: Yes, and I do my cooking, I do not buy any ready meal because I know that probably one day I will have to have the ready meal, so while I don’t have to I do my cooking. I love cooking, it’s very difficult to cook for one, but I organise myself so well that I cook. I love soup, I love this, so I cook for about four portion so I can freeze one, two and have one and two and then something else, so probably even if I go to freezer today I can have full completely different lunch today and full completely lunch tomorrow! So, and I, things I buy usually I’ve got everything for, at the house for two weeks’ worth of food, freezer, I got the freezer, you see I organise myself. I realise that one day I probably will not [emphasis] be able and what I do then? I’ve no relatives that can help me, so I organise myself so I’ve got everything there. Bread is also freezed instead, in case I run out and can’t go to shop and as I say, those people round here, only Peter, the one that you met, you see here, he is seventy eight, he is the only one who is a very, very good friend and he sort of, shall I use the word care, but in a manner?
Int: Yes, yes.
WS: But his partner, she is sixty three, she is not a, and Catherine be across the road on her own, she probably is about sixty but they don’t, I said hello, but say hello and go, you see, but Peter would talk to me, Peter would say how are you and what’s that and we talk about this, can I use your green bin because it is empty and I’ve got the waste, all little things like that and he gets all my keys and everything and the telephone of my nearest, my grandson and my nephew, he’s got it all there and the key to the house and even when I have got this alarm, talking alarm, you know, what you press.
GB: Yes, yes.
WS: I have to have somebody telephone number, that is the rule of this, they gave me this apparatus. So Peter said yes, I have your key because if I press it to get into the house they ring there, and they come here so I’ve got everything organised and even further than that, I’ve, you know that, a living will. Did you hear about living will ever?
GB: Living will, I’ve heard about them but I haven’t kind of, I don’t know the details of it. I tell you what I’ll just switch off the recorder now because that’s, especially when you’re talking about other personal things we don’t need to, hand me that, let me just see, there we are, switch that one off, lovely and switch this one off.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Wanda Szuwalska Interview
Description
An account of the resource
Wanda Szuwalska was born on a farm in Poland and was deported to Russia by train at the start of the Second World War. She talks of the journey to Russia, the time she and her family spent there, then coming to England and becoming a WAAF. Wanda worked at RAF Faldingworth and then Stanmore and she describes the normal life she felt she had. After the war Wanda married and had a family, working as a machinist eventually becoming the manager. She also tells of how kind people were to her, the food she prepared, her family and her life on her own.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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01:36:23
Identifier
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SRAFIngham19410620v090001-Audio
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Middle East--Palestine
Poland
Russia (Federation)
England--Lincolnshire
England--Liverpool
Russia (Federation)--Arkhangelʹskai︠a︡ oblastʹ
Russia (Federation)--Katynʹ
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
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Geoff Burton
Contributor
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Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
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1939-09-17
1940-02-10
1942-04-01
1943
1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
300 Squadron
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
faith
ground personnel
home front
love and romance
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ingham
RAF Northolt
Stalin, Joseph (1878-1953)
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2096/34806/SRAFIngham19410620v100001-Audio.1.mp3
df75c4e4cf72f2d427bab4d2e174deb9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Ingham Heritage Group. Zosia Kowalska
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Zosia Kowalska and two photographs.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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RAF Ingham
Transcribed document
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GB: The Polish Air Force um, and if you could perhaps just start by telling us a bit about how you arrived in England, and I’ll let you just chat on.
ZK: I was deported to Siberia with my family. My parents died. Then we moved to Tehran. From Tehran I got [indecipherable] no, Minsk sorry, and from Tehran we went to Africa: to Tanganyika. No first we went to India, then from India go to Africa, Tanganyika. From Tanganyika we signed, because it was um, Marshal Sikorsky want Polish, Polish girls to go to work in England, so we signed: five hundred of us. We left Tanganyika about 1943, ’43 that was, yeah. We came, we come to, we come to [pause] South Africa, South Africa, you know South Africa.
GB: Yes, yes.
ZK: Yeah, we come there, we stay there about two weeks, recuperated, and then we go again. We were sailing six weeks to England, six weeks on sea. Imagine: one thousand soldiers and five hundred women, Polish women. [Laugh]
GB: I won’t ask you any stories about on the ship then, we’ll move on from that maybe.
ZK: Some answers there! [Laughter] And we arrive in Scotland, I believe in Scotland, I can’t remember the place where we been to. Then we were loaded to train, we’re going by train to Redcar. You know Redcar, in Yorkshire? We was there during the winter, that was winter when we come to, about March, something like that. And we was issued with uniform, we stayed there two weeks, then we continue down to recruiting, er where’s that place, we were, they were teaching us English, English language. There was English man there, he said - there was Polish couple she who look after us and he said to her ‘why is it in Poland many, many people cannot read and write?’ She said ‘what did you say? Did you read, did you read the Europe history?’ He said ‘no’; she said ‘you must read Europe history, then you find out what happened to Polish people there.’ Yeah. And from there I was moved to, to [pause] Nottingham. What is this station you call Nottingham?
GB: Newton, Newton? RAF Newton?
ZK: Yeah, Newton, yes. I stayed there about two months, and before Christmas we were going to, they moved us to Weston-Super-Mare, RAF station Locking.
GB: Yes.
ZK: There, before Christmas. We arrive there late and we have nowhere to sleep, so we look in town, round to sleep. We find this erm, what you call this charitable place.
GB: Like the Salvation Army.
ZK: Yeah, yeah, that’s it, Salvation Army. They let us in, they give us supper, then we went to bed. Next morning we wake up and they give us some breakfast again and we continued on to RAF station Locking. We come by, no we didn’t catch bus, we were walking all way from Somerset to RAF station Locking, there. We come to there [indecipherable] it was two men standing there, guiding the people where to go. So these two men, was my future husband! [Laughter] And other man was his friend. They took us to this camp, and we stay there, we go for dinner and then for dinner, then there was so much to do, the writing and everything, and the next things, the next morning, they took us to, to er cookhouse, introduce us [laugh] to this big, big thing where you cook thing for the people: huge potatoes, carrots, parsnips, everything. They teach us what, how to make pastry, and there was an exam, we were taking exam every six weeks. The last thing I took I make er, I make [pause] pastry, puff pastry, puff pastry which was very good, [laugh] for first time, and something else for, I think it was like vegetable and meat, beef.
[Other]; Stew.
ZK: Stew that stew, yes. I make that and the colonel of the station come taste, taste with lady woman, she was officer as well. He taste everybody, the next day and the next day, he didn’t say me that I was passed. [Laughter] The next day my friend read in paper: ‘hey’ she said, ‘Zosia you passed!’ [Laughter] I did, and everybody congratulate me, so that’s the end of the cooking practice. And after it was Christmas time, Christmas, evening Christmas that was, we have supper in Poland, we have big supper there.
GB: On Christmas Eve.
ZK: Yeah, Christmas Eve, oh we make presents for boys, oh it was great [laughter], even my future husband got sausages because he like food! [Laughter]
GB: But he was happy with that, yes.
ZK: He like food. That was beautiful night, that. I never forget, it was lovely.
GB: Were you and your husband at that time, were you just friends, or did he like you at that point do you think?
ZK: I don’t have nothing to do with him during the, before Christmas, nothing, and that time, oh what am I saying?
GB: Christmas Eve and the presents.
ZK: Christmas dinner, Christmas dinner and next day officer [indecipherable]
[Other]: Who served you dinner?
ZK: The officer do job for the ordinary people, all the men, yeah, and that was, and the next day, no the next week, I met my husband in the, in the – oh dear.
GB: Was it like the club, or the institute?
ZK: Yeah, in the big room was where everybody was coming, airmen and everybody and he said, he went by and he said ‘can I ask you something?’ I said ‘yes’, he said ‘can you come to pictures with me tonight.’ [Giggle] ‘Today I’m not, I’m not going today, no today, no.’ The next Sunday, the next week again he ask me. I hear, I know that he had woman before me, that she was crazy about him and the next day he said, the next week, he said ‘you come today with me to cinema.’ I said ‘today yes, I come with you.’ And that woman spot him, she got iodine, she put his eyes, it burned his eyes, you know.
GB: Yeah?
ZK: Yes, she was bad woman! Oh dear. But nothing happened to his eyes, nothing, just went to the surgery and they cleaned it out, everything, yes, and since then we never hear of her.
GB: Good job I think.
[Other]: [Whispering]
ZK: She was married too! Before the war, yeah. The next thing is there was this wedding. Mrs, there was two girls with me in the RAF, Mrs Alexander’s daughters, and they invite, they hear about this coming wedding, and they invited us to their house in Somerset. So we went that Saturday, I didn’t speak that much English, and I was a bit shy, and they give, had a beautiful meal there, everything, and they arrange me everything there: wedding dress, beautiful, and after the, after the wedding I had civil clothes, coat and shoes, everything, everything, they gave me, those people. They were beautiful people and I thank them very, very much. And after this wedding, we, they say we going to move to Cammeringham. They told us we are going to move to Cammeringham, oh some time in May we moved there, I think, in May 1944.
GB: ’44.
ZK: Yeah, no, yeah, 1944. Oh dear. No, 1945 we moved to Cammeringham, yes, and um, oh God, [chuckle] something happened and we stayed there until, until the release from the RAF. We release in, it’s there somewhere.
[Other]: ’46.
ZK: Pardon?
[Other]: ‘46
ZK: Yeah. And we still stayed in that Cammeringham village. We got this cottage. This cottage was filthy, filthy, filthy, terrible! We clean, we cleaned, we painted, the cockroaches was singing during the night, my husband got poison, he sprayed, sprayed all over the rooms and everywhere there and in the morning you swept full of these what they call cockroaches and they went, they all die. And it was June, yes June, my brothers come from Italy, my younger brother from Italy came, but he stay in Coventry. The other, the younger brother was here, Janek, he was in the RAF Cadets, you know, and he come as well and um, Jan, Jan was in the RAF, Stacek was in the middle east, he was in school, he was cadet in school, he came, he came during the night, I was sleeping I didn’t hear nothing. He came in the middle of the night, I didn’t know that, he didn’t say anything: he didn’t write when he coming back, no nothing. He throw this stone to the window, to the bedroom window, I didn’t hear. In the morning she was crying, she was baby that time, she was crying. I come downstairs on this concrete, concrete steps, come downstairs, my brother was sleeping like that. I look down and around and: oh my goodness that’s Stacek! Oh God. He wake up, he said ‘I can’t [indecipherable] bed outside.’ [Laugh] Oh dear. And we had reunion in that June, before that, before they went to Matlock to work, my husband found a job there in Masson Mill, my brothers, three brothers and my sister came from Africa as well.
GB: Zosia can I just ask you a question about Ingham at this point because it’s probably easier than going back: did you and your husband have to get special permission to live out? Even though you were married, normally they would expect you to live in the barracks, wouldn’t they, separately.
ZK: Yes, yes. We had this party from camp come friends as well, we had full cottage and in the garden plenty people, I said to my husband ‘how can we provide with food?’ He said ‘don’t worry, I’ve got farmers friends!’ They provided, he went round and got eggs and everything. I bake cakes [beep] I bake everything. He bought some wine, some whisky as well. We had very, very nice time, the last time with some of my brothers. They went to, they went to Matlock, they stay in County Station Hotel there, you know Patrick where it is, yeah, County Station Hotel. They wanted muscle men, my sister and this man who run the County Station Hotel said ‘I don’t, I never understand this language’, [laugh] they were laughing! Anyway, he said, he told them that I manage, I manage, to understand this language anyway. So one by one went to Australia, another brother follow him after six months. The younger brother went to America, to Chicago, he’s still there, he’s still alive, and he got beautiful family, he married to American girl, she was descendent, German descendent she was, and we corresponded. I’ve been there, in Chicago, and then [sigh] I didn’t like my sister-in-law. [Laughter]
GB: Well they always say you can pick your friends but you can’t pick your relatives. That’s very, very true, isn’t it I think, you know. Could you tell us, Zosia, a little bit about your time at Ingham? Your work and what happens day to day, on a normal day.
ZK: I’m coming to that, I’m coming to that.
GB: Okay.
ZK: In Ingham we were living in that, Mrs Franklin cottage, she was she was old lady, her husband worked on the council on the road and she very little, she read very little, she didn’t know nothing about Polish people. She said ‘I think Polish people were black!’ [Laugh] I said ‘no, they’re not black!’ She find out how lovely Polish people are, after that, you know. And we stay there one year, one year, and that time she find this cottage, this cottage we have to clean up. Oh, it was hard work, hard work and I was expecting [indecipherable], I still work, I still go to kitchen, to RAF, working there as well; it was very, very hard that time. We had no washing machine, no hoovers, we had to do washing like that! Now, then, oh what I say, she got, that lady she got three daughters. One was, two was married, the youngest was something wrong with her and she was going to marry, she married that man, we went to this wedding, to their wedding that was all right, was after the war, was nothing, nothing you can buy, yeah. And um, oh so much, so much to say, you forget. [Laugh]
GB: Where exactly in Ingham was the house that you lived, in the cottage?
ZK: It was behind the village, back of the village.
GB: Back of the village, a little cottage.
ZK: It was cottage there, beautiful, she kept ever so clean. She was ever so good cooking. Cook.
GB: Oh right, yes, yeah. So, so from your cottage, to the place where you worked, was just along the street, wasn’t it.
ZK: Yeah.
GB: Maybe two or three hundred yards? A little bit more.
ZK: More, more. Yeah.
GB: So when did your, what, tell us what would be a normal day for you? What time would you get up to go to work? Tell us a little bit about -
ZK: We wake up six o’clock, six o’clock in the morning and my husband went first to job and then I follow him after that. I went to cookhouse and there was these four girls with me, two English and three Polish women and we makes some, for tea. I ask what are you going to do for - I was in charge of the cookhouse then - and I said ‘well we going to do today platski’ – potato pancakes. [Laugh] So we had beautiful potatoes, we grate and put eggs, two, three eggs and flour and mix it and put in pan and fry it up, frying up there and keep them, when the thing come we have to keep hot this platski, and we gave them this and they eat it all [emphasis]. They say oh, what a beautiful meal we had today – they love it, they love it!
GB: And is platski, is that for breakfast or is that or lunch, or dinner?
ZK: Any time you can have.
GB: Any time, okay.
ZK: They ask, the next week ask me are we going to have this the same, this platski, I said ‘no, it’s hard work you know, it’s hard work. Unless you can do you help us, grate the potatoes and peel the potatoes then frying, you can have them!’ Ask but it’s too hard a job, too hard, yes. So, they give up and um, that time, my, I was going to, on um, on um, I finish with about that time, 1940 - 1946, 1945. Yes, I did. My husband stayed still two years there.
GB: So your husband was at RAF Ingham as well then.
ZK: Yeah, yeah.
GB: I know that you said that he lived in the cottage, I thought you said he was at a different RAF station.
ZK: No, we lived together, yeah.
GB: Oh right.
ZK: I have this paper and I stay in that cottage because I was waiting and it was big winter that time, 1947, remember?
GB: It was before I was born, but I do understand it was like 1963 was a very bad winter as well, but I understand ‘47 was bad.
ZK: We were going to Gainsborough, she was born in Gainsborough, during the night. It was snowing, we didn’t know where to go. I nearly have her in the car. Oh dear! Finally we arrive to that hospital, the matron, fat matron come, she was ever so good to me, she said ‘don’t worry lass, don’t worry’ [chuckle], she was wonderful lady, and the next day she was born and I stay in that hospital for one month because it was big snow, we can’t got to our cottage because it was snow up, my husband had to build a tunnel to be [indecipherable] and there was Queen and King going to Africa, with their daughters, that time and we say: ‘oh my goodness we come from Africa, should have stayed there!’ [Laugh]
GB: Wouldn’t it be nice to stay there, yeah, oh definitely.
ZK: And after month I come back home and the neighbours gave us beautiful dinner, Mr and Mrs Hayes, yes, they were lovely people. Everywhere I went I met good people, very nice people; they were very good to me.
GB: We, the only people that we know of that are still in the village of Ingham that have a Polish connection at the moment now, is Margaret Schmietster, she would have been there ’45, ’46.
ZK: Maybe, yeah.
GB: Jan was obviously her husband, he was Polish but she was a local girl, and she, obviously Jan has passed away a few years ago but she’s still, she’s the only person we found: Margaret Schmietster.
ZK: Oh.
GB: So you had the whole, about a year then at RAF Ingham, or two years, with your husband?
ZK: Three years!
GB: Three years!
ZK: 1944, no 1942 I joined the RAF, in Africa, I don’t know if you count that or not.
GB: If you joined, you joined!
ZK: [Falling object] Four years I was in RAF. Long time you know. I want to go to civil street you know, because well, you have enough of this marching and doing thing, oh dear, yeah.
GB: Did you only work in the kitchens that were down in the village or did you work at the kitchens up on the airfield at all, because we had the, I don’t know whether you remember, because the building that we are trying to renovate now is the airmens mess up on the airfield?
ZK: Yes, there I was, yeah.
Int; Oh, you worked in there as well?
ZK: Yes.
GB: Oh my goodness me!
ZK: It was an officers mess as well there.
GB: There is, there was an officers mess up there – a separate building – and a sergeants mess.
ZK: Because my friend, you know Marion.
[Other]: Yes.
ZK: He worked for officers mess there.
GB: Is your friend Marion, is it a he or she?
ZK: No, is a he.
[Other]: A he. He’s died
GB: He’s passed on has he?
ZK: He’s passed away, yeah, he was working there. [Sigh] Oh dear.
GB: It would be interesting for you to actually go back and see Ingham as it is now. A lot of it is still as it was, how you would remember, there are a few small kind of housing builds that have changed, especially, unfortunately, where your, where the Station Headquarters was and where your kitchen was, it’s just, it’s two streets of modern houses now I’m afraid. We’re struggling to find any photographs because most of the buildings there were there through to about the nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, used for different things: for industrial purposes, there’s a scout hut, but then obviously the developers decided to flatten it, and build houses. So unfortunately we, we’re struggling to find, but on the airfield, the airmens mess on the airfield of course, the shell is there, the shell of the two buildings, so we are renovating that up, and it would be lovely perhaps um, either this summer, when it’s nice and warm, or maybe next year.
ZK: You’re going to finish that?
GB: We are: next year it will be finished. But you know, if you care to, there’s not a great deal to look at this year, but God willing, God willing, you’re obviously kind of like to come down perhaps next year and see the finished thing.
ZK: If I still live!
GB: You will, I’m sure you will, I’m sure you will!
ZK: I’m ninety two! Big age.
GB: I just hope that I am as fit and as well as you at ninety two, so. [Laughter] So, tell me a little bit about your husband if you don’t mind. Obviously, obviously the time that you knew him in the RAF? What kind of job did he do? I know you said he was service police, at RAF Ingham, did he work in the village or up at the airfield? What rank was he please?
ZK: In the airfield, in the, they have house there, Police Office,
GB: In the guardroom.
ZK: Guard, yeah, in Cammeringham. He was very busy. He go on, to Scotland very often, to search, to find out about, he was like um, detective.
GB: Yes, an investigator. Right, okay.
ZK: I don’t understand. He usually go to Scotland. I said ‘where are you going today?’ and he’d say ‘we’re going to Scotland, on business.’ He never told me.
GB: He probably wasn’t allowed to tell you, depending on what he did. In those days it was very, very quiet. What rank was he?
ZK: He was corporal.
GB: A corporal.
ZK: Polish, Polish rank he had, you know sergeant.
GB: Right, and when, when it came to the time of demob, when you came out of the RAF, did you stay in Ingham, or did you?
ZK: Oh yes! We stay, yes. We had chance to go to Canada, my, I have cousin right there, in Toronto, they say we must go there, but we decided, my husband didn’t want to go nowhere, and I think I like England as well, you know. I went to Canada, I been to America as well, see my brothers, and I don’t like America [laughter]. I said it’s best, best to stay in England.
GB: You think so.
ZK: Yes, he said I got relation in Poland where I have to go to see them, he have only one sister left, everybody was killed there. During the war.
[Other]: And his mother. His mother was alive.
ZK: Mhm. That was, that was terrible, terrible. And we stay, we decided to stay in England. I said ‘this is best country, I love England.’ I love Poland because it’s my country, that, you know, but I make lot of friends here, English people, I enjoy. I went, we went that first time, you remember, I was sad, sad story, first time, there was nothing there. Nothing. Oh, and um, what was going to say. It was, everything and Russian there: everything was, they have no clothing, they have nothing, nothing. Poor people; I feel sorry. We went to that camp, [indecipherable] People was looking at our car and I was crying, I said ‘oh my goodness, we have this car’ and they had nothing. Yeah. [Beep] It was bad, and we come back after months. We stay there months, we were going round big towns see the churches, cathedrals, beautiful. All bombed.
GB: All bombed.
ZK: Yeah. We went to Gniezno, where Poland become Christian - first time in thousand years. There were, outside the church there was figure from bronze, bronze, round beautiful monastery, and the Jerries took everything down, everything down for bullets to kill Polish people.
GB: Yes.
ZK: It was, then we went to Chopin, remember Chopin, we went to Chopin place, we went to Niepokalanow as well, where this Franciscan monk was killed by Jerry in Auschwitz. You remember?
GB: Yes, yes.
ZK: We been there. And where were we? In Krakow, Krakow, we come during the night, our car was, we didn’t, there was no light, nothing, it was dark, my husband took the road and there was hole in the road and the car plonk, in this hole. Oh my goodness, children was crying: we never come back to Poland! We never get back to England. About twenty people, Polish people, come and lift the car up. Oh, that was relief! [Laugh]
GB: Out of the hole. Would, would it be just a good idea just to give you a little break for a couple of minutes? Maybe like a drink of water or something?
ZK: Yeah, come on, make cup of tea.
GB: No! I meant from your point of view, just have that because you’ve been talking very nicely too us, but I think maybe.
ZK: I forgot lot, but you should come early I tell you more [indecipherable].
GB: No, you’ve been telling us tremendous stories already and luckily, with the camera here, we can record everything and what we’ll do is we’ll, when we’ve produced it, we’ll give you a copy, obviously give yourselves a copy, on disc, then at least you’ve got. It’s, it’s good to look back at it when you, because things you may forget about in a few weeks’ time you look back and then watch yourself on the television [laugh] and if you’re like me, you get very critical of yourself, and what, how you sit, how you speak to people, and that’s why I sit behind the camera you see! So if it’s all right with you, we’ll just take a short break, now and you can have a glass of water or what have you and then we can carry on again. If that’s all right. Okay?
ZK: [Indecipherable]
[Other]: I will do, yes. While we’re doing this, that’s mum when she was much younger. [Beep]
GB: Oh my!
[Other]: Your facility, the way you were able to say “Bast!”, [laughter], like that. You didn’t’ know English when you came to England. So when you went to Redcar did you have a medical?
ZK: Med?
[Other]: Did you have a medical when you came to Redcar?
ZK: Yes, we have.
[Other]: And what happened? What did the doctor say when he looked at you?
ZK: I don’t know! [Laughter]
[Other]: Oh, this one’s what?
[Other]: This one’s a?
ZK: No!
[Other]: This one’s a virgin. She had no idea what virgin meant!
GB: Oh dear!
ZK: There was a girl there, Rosalia, in Redcar, we were dressed up for morning’s attention, [beeping] I’m stood there and men working on the roof there and Rosalia didn’t put skirt on, [laugh] she was rushing, she was rushing and officers noticed so: ‘Rosalia, you have no skirt on!’ [Laughter]
[Background talking]
[Other]: My mum said that was at Ingham as well.
ZK: That was funny!
GB: Goodness me!
[Other]: With the English. That’s at Ingham.
GB: Oh right!
[Other]: Another one, police one, they had an adjutant at camp, Cammeringham, and when on parade he kept [indecipherable] didn’t notice but all the girls did and eventually Stefan, her husband, went and had a word and he didn’t do it any more.
[Other]: Do you want a piece of cake?
ZK: He chased me round!
[Other]: He said as copper I go tell him!
ZK: The boys: chase me round the cookhouse! [Laughter]
GB: So not a lot really changes in seventy years then, because that still happens! People still get chased round cookhouses and things.
[Other]: And corporal Miehalski, what do you remember about him?
GB: Might want to kneel down a bit Brendan, you’re right in the way of the lens, mate.
GB: That’s fine, for God’s sake, all these cameras.
ZK: We had fun, we had fun: we had good time.
[Other]: And so you should!
[Other]: Can you remember Miehalski?
ZK: Miehalski. Oh yeah, yeah, cook.
[Other]: What did he do?
ZK: He was, he wore big moustache. [Chuckle]
[Other]: And if you’re –
ZK: He, he look after me, he said ‘I will look after you, put weight on, don’t, you have nice complexion’, he give me some cream to drink [laughter].
[Other]: Ulterior motives!
ZK: He was funny man. He was from, where Stefan come from.
[Other]: Potsdam.
GB: Can you remember in the um, headquarters down in Ingham village where you worked, you obviously had your cookhouse, the canteen?
ZK: Yeah, I remember.
GB: But there were other buildings in there. We’ve looked at some of them and it looks like there might have been a shoemakers in, within the RAF?
ZK: Oh yeah, maybe, maybe there.
GB: Did you get a chance to look round any of the other buildings?
ZK: The clothing there, clothing as well.
GB: The Clothing Store was there, yeah.
ZK: Because my friend Stella used to work there.
GB: So did that mean you were able to get a couple of extra bits of extra clothing for the winter, yeah?
ZK: Oh dear!
GB: I’ll have a look at those photographs in a minute.
ZK: I did have the uniform, [indecipherable] I give you that, I don’t want it.
GB: But I presume obviously, working inside in the kitchens it was nice and warm anyway, even through the winter.
ZK: Warmer than Siberia! [Laugh]
GB: But then perhaps in the summer perhaps not so good, working in the kitchens.
ZK: No. Well, in Siberia, when we were deported, all my family, they gave us job on the river, on the river. They built edges, on the river, [paper shuffling] about four corridors, four corridors: A, B, C, D, wood, you get me, catch wood through that corridor. And I caught the wood and the wood, I went under water and I was hearing, and somebody was saying ‘she’s drowning, she’s drowning!’ My God! And I said, I go to that Commandant, our Commandant, Commandant and said ‘no, no, I’m not working on the river give me other jobs’, and for some men, they follow, for some men they gave us this cook, cookhouse job, they were cooking there and for winter we had to go to woods to saw the wood, wood, big wood, casting them for this river, and they send them, they bind them together and they send them in the river – I don’t know where they go.
GB: Probably to the big saw mills or something, yes.
ZK: Hard work. Hard work.
GB: With that many big tree trunks and logs, I imagine.
ZK: Long logs.
GB: Yeah, did people end up breaking their arms and hands and things?
ZK: Yeah, oh dear, I was in hospital there and I went out and that’s why I have that leg now.
GB: Because of the wood.
ZK: Yes, it was so cold.
GB: Can I ask you Zosia, when, going back to your time at Ingham, when you, you say that you were demobbed in 1946, but you and your husband stayed in Ingham, did you carry on working at the, in the kitchens?
ZK: No, I worked until I left RAF, since then I didn’t work ‘cause I was expecting baby and there was a lot of work at home – I had to clean out this house. It was terrible.
GB: And then how long did you stay in Ingham, in that house? Or should we say when did you move?
ZK: About eight months.
GB: Oh right, and then where did you move to after that?
ZK: We moved from that house to Matlock.
GB: Right, yes.
ZK: She was about -
[Other]: Matlock Bath.
ZK: Hmm?
[Other]: Matlock Bath.
ZK: Yeah, Matlock Bath, yeah. Come to Station Hotel and we stay there. All my brothers come with us, yeah, and we had this job and they love it, but they say that we’re not going to stay in England. They emigrated to Australia and since they emigrated I don’t hear from them nothing [emphasis]. Nothing. I don’t know what happened to them. I don’t know. The brother from, after me, he was in Italy, he was in Monte Cassino he had something wrong with him; he always cry. Oh, it was terrible. He was telling us story, he was years falling down. Terrible. Didn’t mention only one word Polish, fighting there, thousands of Polish people that day die there.
GB: At Monte Cassino.
ZK: Yeah. I was watching cemetery this summer, they were, oh, [pause] they had big do there, religion, all religion, you know, different nationalities come together, and there was a mass there as well, I was watching and they say that the scouts, scouts come, about thousands of scouts come with roses, red roses; they lay each roses on grave, these soldiers’ grave. That was beautiful, beautiful ceremony. [Blowing nose] Young people, scouts.
GB: That’s lovely, yes.
ZK: I’m sorry. It’s horrible, horrible.
GB: No, no.
ZK: I remember. I watch everything what’s going on this war, this last war, I don’t want it to happen again, [loudly] it’s happening again!
GB: It does. I’m afraid. I’m afraid people never learn, do they. They never learn from other people’s mistakes, and other big wars, and they keep happening.
ZK: That bloody Putin, Putin.
GB: Yeah, he’s causing problems now isn’t he, yes.
ZK: He’s horrible.
GB: Can I ask you one question Zosia, we’ve looked at these photographs, and do you not have a, no, do not have is a wrong question to ask. Do you have a photograph of you and your husband on your wedding day?
ZK: Oh yes.
[Other]: I’ve got it, at home.
GB: Ah, right!
ZK: Yes!
[Other]: It’s being reframed. I don’t know if it’s there. We found it broken.
[Much cross discussion]
GB: It was just that, yes, I just remember you said at the time about the family were very good to you, they brought you, you know, the wedding dress and the civilian clothes afterwards and I just thought to myself, well.
ZK: Yeah, there’s, got one there. That one.
[Other:] Oh this one.
ZK: Yes.
[Other]: In fact it was the mayor of Weston Super Mare.
[Other]: Sorry.
GB: The brother that was in Monte Cassino. He went in fact all the way through the Italian Campaign and he got a, which is unusual for them, he got a Cross of Valour.
GB: Ah! There we go.
[Other]: On the one I’ve got it’s been sort of coloured, hand painted, so it’s you know, sort of life.
GB: I have to be honest, I do like the black and white ones, I really do. I often think that photographs these days are nice to be in colour, but so many photographs would be nice if they were just left, even nowadays, in black and white, ‘cause I think sometimes colour, colour can be a bit untruthful in a way, black and white is very nice.
ZK: When will that photograph be coming?
[Other]: It’s still at home, it’s still waiting to reframe it.
GB: That is terrific.
[Other]: I didn’t know about that.
[Other]: Very low down on my priority list.
[Other]: And we didn’t know about the naughty ladies!
[Other]: No we didn’t.
GB: Could we possibly just take it out of there? If you don’t mind, you wouldn’t mind if we took a photograph of that one as well would you? Because then it’s lovely seeing you and your husband, it’s nice to see a picture of you together, especially on your wedding day. Have you got any other particular memories of RAF Ingham or thoughts, thoughts that you can now remember about just the everyday things that happened at RAF Ingham, any funny things, ‘cause you’ve obviously, with people chasing you round the kitchens! [Laughter] And I notice in particular, one of the pictures here, this one here, in the dining room, purely because the decoration’s up, it must have been Christmas Day or Christmas Eve.
ZK: That was Christmas Eve. Dinner.
GB: That was Christmas Eve. At Ingham.
ZK: He is there.
GB: Yes. And would this, would this have been the dining room down in the village or up on the airfield?
ZK: Yes.
GB: Which one do you think this would have been?
[Other]: Which one?
ZK: I think that was Somerset, RAF station Locking.
GB: You think it was Locking do you? Right.
[Other]: You told me it was Ingham.
GB: Well, it’s difficult to say, we’d have to look at the building anyway, ‘cause that’s, we’re really sad, Brendan and I, but we immediately look at the building.
[Other]: Oh no, you’d get some anorak coming and saying that’s not.
GB: Exactly, the windows of, most of the expansion period RAF buildings that were done in the ‘30s, 1930s when the RAF built up all of its stations, there were nice big concrete and brick built permanent stations. It’s only the ones that were built during the Second World War in particular that are all single story, with an apex roof and Nissen huts and things like that. So immediately we start looking at the windows and the size because they obviously had much bigger windows then we did, so our first question was going to be we wondered, we knew it was obviously Christmas purely by the amount of the food that’s on the table.
ZK: Good do, Christmas Eve.
GB: Yes, and all the decorations.
ZK: Yes.
[Other]: The one about the English chaps eating the Polish food, that was definitely Ingham.
ZK: Oh they love it, they love it! Our food is good!
[Other]: Zosia would have called that Cammeringham of course.
GB: Yes, because it was Cammeringham from November ’44, they changed it. Funnily enough they found that there was a small village in Suffolk, also called Ingham, and through most of the war years they found a lot of stores were going – there wasn’t an airfield at Ingham in Suffolk – but a lot of stores were getting sent there by mistake. The problem was, in March of ’44, that’s when the Polish bomber squadrons moved to Faldingworth, just across the other side of the A15, so RAF Ingham then reverted to being a training camp – there was still some flying still going on - and then the Air Ministry decided in the November of that year, after the operations had all finished, to change the name of the airfield to Cammeringham.
ZK: Yes, there was Faldingworth, remember Faldingworth.
GB: Faldingworth, yes, yes.
ZK: Was stationed there. My friend was there.
GB: Who was that? Can you remember who that was? At Faldingworth.
ZK: Well she died, long time ago. Mrs Bonner, you know.
GB: Okay.
[Other]: Oh yes, Mrs Bonner, yes.
GB: Because obviously everybody that was at Ingham in particular, with 300 Squadron, they moved over to Faldingworth, on to Lancasters, flying Lancasters, and they had obviously concrete runways there and that’s where they, most of them, spent till the end of the war and after until about ’47 or ‘48 when they kind of demobbed everybody. And obviously just round the corner, we were looking on the map, the site, I think it was number nine site, then became the Polish Resettlement Camp. Each of the Nissen huts had internal walls built, so from what was just basically a long tube they created a little house: two bedrooms, a living and a cooking area and a bathroom, and they were very, very basic and I was half wondering whether you and your husband had lived in there but obviously not because you were in the cottage.
ZK: In private.
GB: Did you [beep] find that, obviously you had food stores next to the kitchen. There must have been small huts or buildings.
ZK: Oh yeah, we had, in that kitchen was special pantry, that was there, we had food there. I arrange what we having next day to cook. I was in charge there. I didn’t wanted the job, but -
GB: And –
ZK: I have to do it! [Laughter]
GB: Obviously you had to be careful because I imagine some of the things, some of the food, was kind of, fairly kind of valuable or scarce. So did you have to make sure you always locked it up so that people didn’t pilfer it?
ZK: Yes, yes, yes, very careful. Yes, ‘cause they’re selling it on black market: coffee and tea.
GB: There’s bars on some of the store windows, there’s still the bars on the windows, so we assume there was something valuable in that area.
[Other]: There would have been vandals?
ZK: I wondered -
GB: Up at the, up on the airfield where the airmens, the other airmens mess is, obviously you had one down at the bottom, the one up that’s up there, there are two or three of the small buildings left around. One of the buildings we found the original drawings for it, and it shows that part was a meat store, but it didn’t have any refrigeration like we have these days, no.
ZK: Didn’t have, no.
GB: There were just, there were bars on the windows and the vents had just got a grill over them obviously to stop flies and things coming in, and then another area within a building was all like for bread and things. The other building we’ve now found, which has been knocked down unfortunately, it says Local Produce Store. So we presume that was all the vegetables and things out of the fields. It goes into quite a lot of detail. When you come down, we’ll show you one of the maps, and it was a copy of the original drawing of the airmens mess. It was a standard thing that they had on all RAF stations, you know, a standard build so you’re probably going to look at it and think oh yes I remember standing there at the cookers, you know. And there are little offices right at the back like catering offices.
ZK: Aha. When my husband was alive we used to go to Peterborough, we go through Lincoln and we go to Cammeringham that camp as well and I said ‘this is where we stayed here’, he said ‘yes, yes, it was’ [laugh].
GB: Well if you would like to come, you know, if it’s possible, and you’d like to come maybe in the summer when it’s nice and warm, we’d be delighted to kind of show you round a little bit of the village as it is now and up on the airfield. It’s up to you all but if you’d like to come we’d love to show you what we’re doing.
ZK: I don’t know who I choose driver!
[Other]: I heard that! [Laughter] I think it must have been what fourteen years ago when we took, when we took the photographs of the cottage.
GB: Jubilee, yes, yes.
[Other]: When we went back with Zosia there and we didn’t [emphasis] look at Ingham at all. Very roughly, that plan there, it’s based like that, where’s the airfield in relation to it, no, just which way?
GB: Right, if the thing’s like that, the village is here, and then the escarpment comes up here, at the side, so it’s over to the immediate east.
[Other]: What, on top of the escarpment?
GB: Yes.
[Other]: Or is it, is it?
GB: If you have a look on, in fact if you -
[Other]: It virtually abuts the airfield, Scampton.
ZK: [Indecipherable] [Background chatter]
GB: The airfield is between - have you looked on our web site at all?
[Other]: Oh, no.
GB: Right, if you have a look on there we have pictures on it.
[Other]: I just wondered where their relation to the map there, so that’s up on the thing.
GB: Oh right. Let me just draw it quickly.
[Other]: If you look on – on our site there’s actually a google map which shows you where it is. You can go out, you can see the fields and the wood and you can actually see just below our site is where the bit where the open fields were, the runways, the A runways, were over that end, on top of what she was saying was the cliff that she used to cycle up to, to get to the top.
GB: Do you have a piece of paper, I’ll just quickly draw it for you.
GB: Is all up on the top there. Down at the bottom of the hill, was some buildings half way down, but the rest was in the village, right the way to the other side of the village so everything was dispersed. So the WAAFs quarters were right over towards Fillingham.
[Overlapping conversations]
GB: So that’s the A15 there, that goes north.
GB: Then you’ve got the top of the village and then actually the bomb dump, before what is now [emphasis] the end of Scampton runway. About a mile or so apart.
GB: [Indecipherable] Do you have a piece of paper and I’ll draw it.
[Other]: That’s to say they were virtually abutting, weren’t they. Absolutely.
[Other]: We went onto an airfield, didn’t we; we went up there.
[Other]: What happened was we were at the back, we were at the back, um, door of Scampton.
[Other]: Oh right.
GB: There is, yeah, a couple of tracks.
[Other]: The Red Arrows were there – a full practice. Several practices. [Chuckle]
[Other]: Just for you, do you remember the Red Arrows laid on a display for you, when we were over there?
[Other]: When we all went over there, when we took those photographs. Do you remember the Red Arrows.
ZK: Yeah, yeah.
[Other]: Frightened us to death, didn’t they! [Laugh]
[Other]: Frighten themselves to death!
GB: There we go, right. Might look a bit complicated. That is the A15, if you think north is to the top of the page and this is the B1398.
[Other]: The cliff road.
GB: The cliff road.
GB: Middle Street, yeah.
GB: That’s the edge of the escarpment which then goes down into the village. This was the airfield basically, this area here.
[Other]: Oh right, right.
GB: It had the longest runway, went over Ingham Lane through the war years, to about there, although they were grass. There’s a shorter one which went about there, like that, and then the other one, believe it or not, went that way, so that was over the grass area. Right back in the middle was a – was it called Cliff House?
[Other] : Yeah, that farm, farmhouse.
GB: It was a big old house, and that’s where the air traffic was as well, [loud noise] slap bang in the middle.
[Other] : Which is strange in itself.
GB: So, obviously you come up the road here, which is the Lincoln Road. At this corner here is where we were talking about the Sick Quarters: there.
[Other]: Yes, yes.
GB: And Zosia’s, the camp, where she was, was down there in the village, there’s obviously buildings and this, this really here is the whole of Ingham village.
[Other]: Right.
[Background talking]
GB: The cottages, Jubilee Cottage is there.
ZK: I remember!
GB: The little church just above it there, and then this is Church Lane, that comes to the top.
ZK: The church is there.
GB: And if you ever drive to the top, you do a quick right and a quick left, no more than ten metres, and that was, I say I’ve offset this so it’s not, that should be down there.
[Other]: There, yeah.
GB: And the main guard hut was there.
[Other]: Oh right!
GB: Which is probably -
[Other]: Where Stefan was.
GB: Where Stefan would have been based, because that was the main thing. Now our place, there’s a wood here.
[Other]: Right
GB: And then there’s a driveway in. Because obviously during the Second World War they had dispersed sites, in case there were German strafing, so, whereas a normal RAF station these days have everybody in and around the parade square or the barrack blocks, everything was dispersed, so there was an accommodation site down here, there were two or three dotted all over. So if that’s the B1398 that goes due north, our site is here. There’s a little guard, a tiny guard hut that’s left, we’re renovating, and then our mess building is literally on here, around the edge of this wood with lots of other, there’s a sergeant’s mess here and the chap, and the farmer keeps his chickens in there, so, but if you have a look at the web site.
[Other]: Yeah, will do.
GB: We have got quite a few pictures on there just to give you, and there is an old aerial photograph isn’t there I think, on the web site somewhere.
[Other] : Should be.
GB: Of 1944, which really is just that kind of picture of the airfield. That really just shows you from this point down to that, the escarpment drops by, I don’t know, is it about fifty feet, or a bit, but it’s a long drop down, it’s about as deep as it is wide, isn’t it. That’s the best way to describe it.
[Other] : It’s got to be, if you’re talking about five metres contours it’s gotta be five metres minimum [emphasis], which is you know, which is twenty five foot plus.
GB: ‘Cause going down, when you go down Church Hill or Cow Lane, either one, you’re going downhill at quite a rate of knots in the car and that one’s obviously a lot more than twisty but. So that’s just a quick artists impression of who it is and what we are.
[Other]: Absolutely!
[Other]: Thank you.
GB: But um, oh fantastic.
[Other]: That’s just for the hell of it, that’s his full name, the fellow whom you’ve come across who was stationed there at that time, that’s the full name spelled out. He later became a friend of the Kennedy’s apparently.
GB: Oh right!
[Other]: Ingham by the way, there’s also one in Norfolk.
GB: Is there really? Well there you go.
[Other]: And you may have seen, you will [emphasis] have seen, Wikipedia or something, refers to, to provoke confusion with RAF Ingham in Suffolk, as you’ve said that there was.
GB: That was, when we first started doing all the research we thought oh well there’s a, but no, unfortunately Wikipedia is good for some things, but!
[Other]: You use your own knowledge and you decide what is right and wrong.
GB: Well, thank you very much. Is there anything that we, we’d love to come and chat to you again some time but we’re aware that obviously it is quite tiring, having us here and strangers and obviously looking back over it all, is there anything else you’d like to tell us about Ingham that we wouldn’t know about but you might well remember?
ZK: No, no, I think I too old, I forget now, you know. If you’d come about five years early I would tell you lots! [Laugh]
GB: It’ll probably be after we’ve driven off down the road you’ll think oh, I should have told them about that or what have you. So RAF Ingham you were not only a WAAF, a Polish WAAF, but you were a married woman and then a mother while you were at Ingham, so that in itself is a lovely story – and here’s your daughter to prove it!
ZK: My daughter and my son in law, yeah, I think they will give me a lift to.
GB: Well that’ll be lovely, well on the back of that –
ZK: Yes Patrick!
[Other]: Sorry?
ZK: You give me lift?
[Other]: If you pay the petrol.
ZK: [Laugh] I pay!
[Other]: That chap may [emphasis] just be of use, again, you have the emails.
ZK: [Bang] Show him this book!
[Other]: Just looking.
ZK: There’s a book here.
[Other]: He is going a bit weird at the moment, that chap, but he was a bomber chap early on, Wellingtons, and was, it is a very interesting story, that’s him.
GB: Yes, we met him. I think that was the gentleman that we met before Christmas?
[Other]: Oh, you might have done, at the thing.
GB: At the Polish.
[Other]: Oh, you spoke to him? Oh good!
GB: We did, and his wife, he’s got a Scottish wife.
[Other]: That’s right. Absolutely!
GB: Yes, we spoke to him, but our conversation was wandering in and out of English and Polish and his wife was having to explain to him.
[Other]: Absolutely. He is a bit wandery now.
GB: Yeah, and the, half way through a sentence he would obviously start speaking in Polish and his wife just had to remind him he was speaking to English people.
[Other]: That’s sad, that’s happened, of course, in the last five years or so.
GB: Yes, but two hundred and sixty six missions I think, he himself said.
[Other]: Do you say missions? Missions? Tsk, tsk.
GB: Can’t I say missions? I’m allowed to say missions. Operations.
[Other]:[Indecipherable] In fact could be fighter sorties, but in fact he was a bomber chap so nowhere near as many as that.
GB: Yes, he did start as that.
[Other]: And it’s a good Polish story, well worthwhile. His early stuff, when he was on Wellingtons.
GB: He was in 304 Squadron?
[Other]: I can’t remember.
GB: I’m sure it was 304 he said he was.
[Other]: Just, and he had rather a disastrous crash early on, and subsequently, that was the -
GB: That’s the gentleman, yes.
[Other]: Absolutely, a very [emphasis] nice character, and his wife is nice as well.
ZK: He’s poorly now.
[Other]: Unfortunately he’s just going a little -
ZK: He’s very poorly.
GB: Yes.
[Other]: But, again, the basis of what you get from him, and the rest, is in there. Absolutely great.
GB: [Pause] Fantastic.
[Other]: And who was this man you spoke to this morning? Remind me what his background was.
GB: He was an armourer with, a ground armourer, with 303 Squadron. Lech -
ZK: Lech.
GB: Lech, and er, yes, he was very interesting. Obviously he’s not, he’s not directly connected with RAF Ingham, but being a Polish ground armourer, very interesting to get his point of view.
[Other]: Well worthwhile. Like [indecipherable], he wasn’t at Ingham.
GB: His perspective was nice.
[Other]: Of Zosia’s three brothers, the youngest one, he was stuck in a, like a Young Army School in Palestine; he was thirteen, fourteen, fifteen. The sort of seventeen, sixteen year old, once they left Siberia, which was Archangel, the forests of the north.
GB: Yes, yes.
[Other]: Not Siberia, he went to Halton as RAF Apprentice, where they were doing the two year course, and he joined the RAF, having finished, as an armourer, and her elder brighter, eldest, was the one who went through the Italian Campaign and as I say he got a, I forget what he bloody got, but it was most unusual for the Poles, more unusual - Cross of Valour, Cross of Valour. And I am almost certain just reading about him and having seen his picture, nowadays they’d call it post traumatic stress. Zosia was saying, that on top of his Polish emotionalism, he was also very troubled. Fascinating character but unfortunately, he went to Australia and people lost touch with him.
GB: Touch with him. Did you get a chance to photograph all the pictures?
[Other]: I’m not sure if I got all of them, I certainly got quite a few of them.
GB: What about this, this one from Zosia in er, civilian attire?
[Other]: When the camera started to go.
GB: Oh did it? Is it not working right? Or is it?
GB: It’s on a, what seems to be a mode, but it’s still taking a picture.
[Other]: [Chuckle] Have you suddenly discovered a new mode after all this using it!
GB: No! Actually, to be honest, to be honest all of this kit is brand new, you’re the guinea pigs today, of using the kit. We have to kind of own up to that.
ZK: Ah!
[Other]: Oh that’s interesting.
GB: Which is why, although we’ve had the kit for about a week or two, this is the first real live, yes, today is a live kind of um, [cough], you know, a live outing with it. So we’re hoping all has gone really well. We did have a quick playback from Lech this morning and everything had recorded on it, which was a bonus.
[Other]: Oh good.
GB: If it hadn’t we were going to be messing around at lunchtime trying to get the whole thing working, so.
[Other]: I’ve got that one, but I haven’t got this.
[Other]: Where did you, where have you been in the last few years?
GB: Oh crikey, in my RAF career?
[Other]: You haven’t been doing anything else have you? You haven’t been moonlighting!
GB: [Laugh] I’d never get the chance! Where have I been, well, if you’re talking about ordinary stations that I’ve been stationed at, I started at Marham, Kings Lynn. I then went to Rheindahlen in Germany, for four years. I then go in to Coningsby in Lincolnshire. After Coningsby I went to Northern Ireland, to RAF Aldergrove, did Northern Ireland, oh crikey.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Zosia Kowalska Interview
Description
An account of the resource
After a challenging time being sent from country to country, Zosia Kowalska finally came to England and became a WAAF. After training, she was posted to RAF Locking where she met her future husband whilst she was working as a cook. The wedding was organised by local people and Zosia was most grateful for their generosity. A posting to RAF Ingham led to Zosia living in the local village where she had her daughter. Zosia and her family talk about the people she met, the history of her brothers and visits to Poland after the war. They were all interested in the work being done at RAF Ingham and are keen to visit again.
This item was provided, in digital form, by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by the IBCC Digital Archive.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Polskie Siły Powietrzne
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:09:16 audio recording
Identifier
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SRAFIngham19410620v100001
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Geoff Burton
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Poland
South Africa
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Russia (Federation)--Siberia
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1943
1944-03
1945
303 Squadron
ground personnel
love and romance
mess
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ingham
RAF Locking
RAF Newton
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2096/34646/SRAFIngham19410620v100003.2.pdf
cf14aa4ab6733538b2dd582578b6cf18
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Ingham Heritage Group. Zosia Kowalska
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Zosia Kowalska and two photographs.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RAF Ingham
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Zosia Kowalska's Wedding
Description
An account of the resource
Zosia and Stefan on their wedding day. Information supplied with the collection states that Zosia was a cook at RAF Ingham.
This item was sent to the IBCC Digital Archive already in digital form. No better quality copies are available.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SRAFIngham19410620v100003
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
ground personnel
love and romance
RAF Ingham
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force