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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1092/11551/PReptonB1801.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1092/11551/AReptonB180306.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Repton, Betty
Betty Repton nee Jackson
B Repton
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Betty Repton (b. 1922). She served as a stenographer in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Coningsby.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Repton, B
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EM: Just talk in a minute. Stop worrying.
DK: I’ll just, I’ll just introduce this. David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre.
BR: Just interrupting. Have you —
DK: Don’t worry. Yeah. That’s ok. Don’t worry.
BR: Have you seen many elderly ladies like me?
DK: Yes. Yes. Three.
BR: Three.
DK: You’re my third.
BR: Oh.
DK: You’re my third. So, yes.
BR: And are they all with it?
DK: Oh, yes. Yes. Just like yourself.
BR: Oh yes. Yes. Just like yourself.
EM: Just like you.
DK: Now —
EM: Just keep quiet a minute.
DK: That’s ok.
EM: He’s just doing a bit of recording.
DK: Sorry.
EM: Just be quiet a minute. Yeah.
DK: So I’m interviewing, Betty Repton isn’t it?
EM: Yeah.
DK: Betty Repton, at her home, don’t worry about this, the 6th of March 2018. If I just, can I just move this over?
EM: Yeah. Do you want a maiden name?
DK: Yes. Could do.
EM: Jackson.
DK: Oh. So, that’s Betty Jackson [pause] That looks alright. Yeah.
EM: Ignore that.
DK: Ignore that. Pretend, pretend it’s not there. If I, if I lean over it’s just making sure it’s still working. So, so first of all can I ask you what you were doing immediately before the war?
BR: What was I doing?
EM: Before the war.
BR: I worked in a library.
DK: Ok.
BR: In Macclesfield. It was called a chain library and it was for the north west.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s all I did.
DK: Ok.
BR: Until the war broke out and it so happened that I was engaged to a gentleman and his parents bought him a shop.
DK: Right.
BR: And they asked me if I would leave and look after it for his twenty first birthday. And in that time he was called up for would it be the militia?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
BR: I’m not quite sure.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To do training because he was called up in the Army.
DK: Right.
BR: And it so happened that I wanted to join the forces. A volunteer.
DK: Ok.
BR: And my brother was in the Navy and my other brother was in the Army so my mother said, ‘I’d like you to go in the WAAF. Then I’ve got one of you in each.’
DK: Each of the services.
BR: And I wrote to Eric, his name and told him I was going to join the forces. And he wrote back and said, “No girl of his was going in the forces.”
DK: Oh right.
BR: So that was the end of that. And so I just applied to join up and I went to Manchester to see a WAAF officer. And she gave me a test and I had to do handwriting.
DK: Right.
BR: And she said, ‘You’re a beautiful writer and you’ve a very good speaking voice.’
DK: Well, you still have.
BR: ‘What do you want to do?’ I said, ‘I’ll do, I want a job that, such as a telephonist.’
DK: Right.
BR: She said, ‘That would be ideal for you,’ and so I was put down to go on a course at Sheffield GPO.
DK: Right.
BR: To be a telephonist when they called me up. And, and then once I’d passed that I was just [pause] I’ve forgotten the word —
DK: Posted.
BR: Yes. To, well I was in the WAAF.
DK: Right. Ok. Ok.
BR: And I had to go to Bridgnorth.
DK: Right.
BR: And get my training done there and then the place that I first went to was 16 MU at Stafford.
DK: A Maintenance Unit. 16 Maintenance Unit.
BR: Maintenance Unit there.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And I was there and then gradually I went to various places.
DK: Right.
BR: And I ended up at a place called Winstanley Hall.
DK: Right.
BR: Near Wigan. And it was a private residence but it was very beautiful and the place that we had to travel each day was on the East Lancs’ Road and they called it RAF Blackbrook but it was underground.
DK: Oh right.
BR: And it was a switching centre.
DK: Yeah.
BR: For teleprinter operators.
DK: Right.
BR: But while I was at Stafford there were so many operators. Telephone operators.
DK: Yeah.
BR: That I never got a chance to get on the switchboard. There were so many.
DK: Yeah.
BR: So I used to sit there in the traffic office and if a message came through on the teleprinter we would get up and go and receive it and put your initials.
DK: Right.
BR: And I got so used to doing that that I thought I’d like to be a teleprinter operator. So I re-mustered and got a posting to Cranwell.
DK: Right.
BR: Where I did the teleprint. I couldn’t type at all. But everything worked out perfect.
DK: So the fact you couldn’t type —
BR: Yes.
DK: Wasn’t a problem.
BR: And so I got posted to this Winstanley Hall.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And, but during [pause]
DK: That’s ok.
BR: During this time my mother was taken ill.
DK: Right.
BR: And I had two sisters that had got children and I was the only single one. So I had to, to ask if I could be released to look after my mum which I did for three months. And in that time if she died within that time I was to be called up straightaway. And she died in the November and they called me back December. At the end of December. 1st of January 1944.
DK: Right.
BR: Because she died in 1943.
DK: Ok.
BR: And so I got posted to Scampton. That was the first posting after being released.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s it. Scampton it was.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And it so happened that the Dambusters were operating there but they’d already been on the raid.
DK: Yes. Because that was —
BR: To the dams.
DK: That was 1943.
BR: So I was just one.
DK: Right.
BR: Of the WAAF, ordinary WAAF just doing a job at Scampton.
DK: And, and, and what was —
BR: And that’s —
DK: And what was your role at Scampton? Were you still on the teleprinters?
BR: What was that?
EM: Were you still a teleprinter operator?
BR: Yes.
EM: At Scampton.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And I stayed to be a teleprinter operator all the time.
DK: Right.
BR: At Scampton. And then I got a posting to Syerston.
DK: Right.
BR: And from Syerston I got another posting. This was within two years of each to Coningsby.
DK: Right.
BR: And that’s where I stayed until I was released from the services to go to, and get my discharge.
DK: Did, did you get to meet any of the aircrew at all?
BR: Did I?
EM: Tell, tell David while you were teleprinter operating at Scampton who, who came through the, who you handed the messages to.
BR: We handed them in. It was all to do with the flying.
DK: Right.
BR: And every time the kites took off there was a message. When they came back they was all debriefed and they put a message together and they called them a BCIR Report. Bomber Command Intelligence Report. So therefore you had to be in the section to type these messages that you plugged in to the stations around —
DK: Right.
BR: When they came back off of a raid. And they just, that was it. And it just, it was all the same.
DK: So you did this every time they went for, on a raid.
BR: Yes.
DK: And then when they came back?
BR: Yes. they went into debrief too, and I suppose the pilots told their own story because some came back and some didn’t. But they always sent a message whenever an aeroplane went off.
DK: Right.
BR: There was a message with the names of the pilot and the crew.
DK: Ok.
BR: To say they’d returned. Then they put this message together and it went to all the 5 Group.
DK: Right.
BR: Places.
DK: So eventually would, the messages would have got to headquarters here then.
BR: That was what?
EM: Where would the, would the messages have come to St Vincent’s and that? Where did the messages go? Just to the —
BR: I don’t know. I think St Vincent’s had something to do with the raid.
DK: Right. Ok. The planning.
BR: It was before I ever got. I didn’t get to the beginning of the Dambusters.
DK: No. No.
BR: To see them. It took place I think in May.
DK: Yeah. May ’43.
BR: And I didn’t get there ‘til December.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But then they, I think the Dambuster pilots and that were stationed at Petwood Hotel.
DK: That’s right. That’s correct. Yes.
BR: And I got married and I went to live at Woodhall Spa.
DK: Oh right. That’s a lovely village.
BR: And so of course I don’t know if you’ve seen the monument.
DK: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
BR: Yeah. And I was there all the time it was being built.
DK: Oh right.
BR: So —
EM: Yeah, but —
BR: And —
EM: You’ve missed the bit about who you, you handed your bit of paper at Scampton to who did you hand your bit of paper to at Scampton?
BR: Oh, well —
EM: Guy Gibson.
BR: I just reported to the guardroom.
DK: Right. Ok.
BR: You know.
DK: Yeah.
BR: I just, I had to report.
DK: Right.
BR: To RAF Scampton.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And everything you did you had to sign in.
DK: Yeah.
BR: At the guardroom.
DK: Can you remember anybody you met there at Scampton?
BR: I met Guy Gibson.
DK: Ok.
BR: He used to walk past the window of the teleprinter room.
DK: Right.
BR: And go into the ops room. Now, the ops room was another room attached to the teleprinter off, but you wouldn’t have known that. But there was a window and if there was a message came through that had to be going to the ops —
DK: Yeah.
BR: You just knocked on the little window. It was wooden.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And it was forced back.
DK: Right.
BR: And who should take the message but Guy Gibson. Because I’d seen him walk past.
DK: Yeah. But he didn’t speak to you then.
BR: No.
DK: No. Oh.
BR: No. No. You just handed the message and that was it. But I saw him pass and I think he’d got the dog and then it was killed.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But I don’t know if it was killed in the time I was there.
DK: I think it would have been before.
BR: Which I think it probably was. And from that it was just routine. Every day the same. I just went on duty.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And off duty and that was it.
DK: Where did you used to go off duty? Was there anywhere you went?
BR: What was that, Elaine?
EM: When you were Scampton where did you live? Where did you, what did you used to do when you were off duty?
BR: We were billeted at Dunholme.
DK: Right. Yeah. I know.
BR: Across the road, down in to Dunholme village.
DK: I know.
BR: And there were Nissen huts.
DK: Right.
BR: And we stayed in those until I got a posting to Syerston. Then got to Syerston and we were in a block. I don’t know if it was G block.
DK: Yeah.
BR: I think they called it.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And —
DK: Did you, did you get on well with your other WAAFs?
BR: Yes. Made some wonderful friends.
DK: Ok.
BR: And little things happened. I sent a BCIR report, Bomber Command Intelligence Report this particular day and it was very long and the flight sergeant in Scampton office said, ‘Betty, if you can send this report without making three mistakes you will get your corporal badges.’ And I said to him, ‘Flight, I don’t want promotion. I don’t like giving orders.’ But now, you see, oh I think I was stupid but I’d just been a country girl.
DK: Yeah.
BR: Lived in a village and I don’t like giving orders to other, to other WAAFs.
DK: Did, did you used to watch the aircraft take off?
BR: No.
DK: On the raids.
BR: No.
DK: No.
BR: No. I was either on duty, and when we weren’t on duty we were down at Dunholme.
DK: Right.
BR: That was the billet.
DK: So you never really saw the activity on the airfields then.
BR: No. So, I was trying to think of something that I did at 16 MU.
EM: She’s got some nice photographs.
BR: Oh, the first time, it was the first posting I had, and another WAAF and I were going into Stafford. So you had to go to the guard room and report and sign.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And the WAAF officer there, well it was corporal, her name was Corporal Blood. Which I shall never forget.
DK: What a great name.
BR: And she said to me, ‘And which bus did you drive?’ I said, ‘I beg your pardon, corporal?’ She said, ‘Which bus did you drive?’ And I was flabbergasted. And she whipped my hat off and she plonked it on straight and she said, ‘That is how you wear your hat.’ Not —
DK: Oh. Like that. Yeah.
BR: Not at an angle.
DK: Like a bus driver. Yeah.
BR: And so I always remember her name and what she said.
DK: Yeah.
EM: I wonder if she’s still about.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And then she said, ‘Get off.’
DK: Oh dear.
BR: And that was the first, I thought I’ve got to be careful.
DK: I’ll tell you what shall I just pause it there? Shall I? Shall I just stop. Thanks.
[recording paused]
DK: Ok. Carry on.
BR: When I was at Woodhall Spa a WAAF had bought a cloth a yard wide.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was plain. And she got people to sign it.
DK: Right.
BR: And she ran up to me for some reason and she said, ‘Betty, would you sign my cloth?’ So, I said, ‘I’d be delighted to,’ but it was my maiden name obviously and she embroidered my name on it and all the others that she asked.
DK: Right.
BR: The local reporter for the Horncastle News said could anybody, could they issue any information as to how that came about because the girl had lost it.
DK: Right.
BR: And it was found behind a cupboard at Coningsby. One of these metal containers that —
DK: Yeah.
BR: You know further in. And they’d found the cloth at the back. So she never took it home.
DK: Do you know what year they found it?
BR: And funnily enough does that prove?
EM: Yeah. What it was.
BR: It was the girl’s.
DK: Oh, here we go. 1986?
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. 1986.
EM: And then they’ve lost it again.
DK: Oh.
BR: And so that —
DK: Oh no.
BR: I took that photograph of the girls and I phoned. Bill Skelton his name was and he said, I said —
EM: Horncastle News.
DK: Yeah.
BR: ‘I think I can help you with the cloth.’ He says, ‘Never.’ I said, ‘I can because my name’s on it.’ So he came to see me.
DK: Right. So —
BR: And it was put in the paper. Then a few years after.
DK: So you’re on that then.
BR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Here it is all about the cloth.
DK: Right.
EM: And they’ve lost the cloth again.
DK: So where was it last seen then? At Coningsby?
EM: Coningsby.
BR: So that’s Coningsby. My last station.
DK: Right.
BR: And there are the girls there. And the girl that did it was this one.
DK: Ok. Can you remember their name?
BR: That’s Wendy Taylor.
DK: Wendy Taylor.
BR: So, Mr Skelton that was, he wrote a bit about the paper and said they’d found —
DK: Right.
BR: But it disappeared again and a WAAF officer wrote the next part of it.
DK: Right.
BR: Is it there?
DK: There’s a new museum at Coningsby. I wonder —
EM: We’ve been.
DK: Oh right.
EM: We went a week last Monday.
DK: Ok.
EM: And she mentioned the cloth.
DK: And they’ve got no —
EM: No. They’ve lost, and they lost it and we mentioned it didn’t we?
BR: Yeah.
DK: What a shame.
EM: And I think her name was Donna who’s there now. And she’s going to see if she can find it. But that is, that’s history.
DK: Oh sure. Yeah.
EM: And it’s a fabulous story.
DK: Yeah.
EM: They found in 1986.
DK: ’86. And lost it again.
EM: But she’s going to try to find it again. Probably through social media. You know, this is how you’re going to have to get it out there.
DK: Well, what I can do is if I, if you can send me a copy of this I can put it on the IBCC’s Facebook page.
EM: Yeah.
DK: And see if that brings out any information.
EM: Well, the thing for me to do then —
DK: Yeah.
EM: If I scanned that and that.
DK: Scanned that and that.
BR: That’s the next letter —
EM: There look.
BR: That came.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah. I’m going to scan these for David and send them to him.
DK: Right.
EM: And he’s going to see whether they can find the cloth or any of the people.
DK: Yeah. We can put an appeal out there.
EM: Yeah.
DK: On the Facebook pages.
BR: There were about the second time they contacted me for that one.
EM: Yeah.
BR: For the cloth.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was a WAAF officer and that. Is there a write up about it?
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Well, we’ll see. We’ll see what we can do.
BR: And —
DK: I can get both the IBCC to look into it on their Facebook page and also the Coningsby Aviation Museum that’s recently opened. Or the Historical Centre or whatever it’s called.
EM: Yeah. But as I say we were there.
DK: Yeah.
EM: And they just seemed totally aghast that anyone and I said well this had been going on and as I say it’s 1944/46 look.
DK: So it was lost between the late 40s and about eighty —
EM: ’86. Found in ’86 and lost again.
DK: Oh dear.
BR: What’s the date of that? That one.
EM: It’s 1986.
BR: Yeah. Yes, so —
EM: But I’ll do that.
BR: I don’t think she ever got it, but its disappeared and it isn’t in the museum.
DK: Well, we —
BR: And that’s what they wanted.
DK: We’ll have to see what we can do.
BR: And they asked me on Monday if I would take the cloth to show them but we never got the chance.
DK: Right. Well, what I can do is I can send, if you email me all that I can send that to them. Both Coningsby and —
EM: Yeah.
DK: IBCC and they can put out an appeal for it then.
EM: Yeah. Because the other thing I don’t know if you’ve noticed somebody’s written on there Dinah Shaw.
DK: Right.
EM: And there’s a singer called Dinah Shaw.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
EM: And they don’t, is that right? Dinah Shaw. Isn’t there a singer?
BR: Dinah Shaw.
EM: Dinah Shaw. Dinah Shaw. And they’re not sure if it was the Dinah Shaw who was the singer who put her name on that cloth.
BR: Well, it probably was but I don’t know.
DK: Right. Right.
EM: And she’s quite a famous —
DK: Yeah.
EM: Person. Which is why they’ve written that there look.
DK: Yeah. So whereabouts is your mother’s name?
EM: Mum’s on this —
BR: I don’t know why. I don’t know why.
EM: Betty Jackson.
DK: Oh, Betty Jackson. There you go.
BR: Wendy came to me and there’s my name on there.
EM: Yeah. Your name’s there look. On the bottom.
BR: Yeah. E Jackson.
EM: Betty. No, Betty Jackson.
BR: I put Betty. Yeah.
EM: Yeah. But you see there Douglas Craig, all the names are quite —
DK: Quite clear aren’t they?
EM: Quite clear aren’t they? I mean I don’t know what they’d be like —
BR: And there’s lots of girls in there from other stations that I’ve kept at the back.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And put the names under.
DK: Well, it would be good if you could get all the names to the faces.
BR: Yeah.
EM: What do you want me to do then? Get the names?
DK: If you get the names to the faces on there.
EM: Yeah.
DK: I can either come back and scan these myself if you like.
EM: Well, it’s up to you.
DK: Or scan them.
EM: I can scan them at work and send them from work.
DK: We just need them at six hundred BPI.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Six hundred. Or DPI is it? Six hundred DPI.
EM: Dots per inch.
DK: Dots per inch.
EM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Six hundred DPI. If you can do that you can then just email them to me.
EM: Right. What I’ll do then I’ll get her to name, you see. I mean again they’re all here look.
DK: They were. Yeah. I see you’ve got a missing one there.
BR: Yeah. What’s that one?
DK: That’s —
EM: Peggy. Oh, Peggy Hassel. I don’t know where she’s gone.
BR: Yes.
DK: She’s [unclear]
EM: Oh, she’s there mum.
DK: [unclear]
BR: Oh yes. She’s there. Peggy Hassel.
EM: But they’re fabulous photographs aren’t they?
DK: They are aren’t they?
EM: I don’t know what that is.
BR: It was a job to get your photograph.
EM: What’s that? Who did that?
BR: Percy Bexton. Doesn’t it say on there?
EM: Yeah. And who was Percy Bexton, 1946?
BR: Yes. He was at Scampton and he was in the office. He says, ‘I’ll give you something to remind you, Betty of me and that’s what he did for me.
EM: Yeah.
BR: Yeah.
EM: They’re great, aren’t they?
BR: And that’s how I looked.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
BR: When I got there.
DK: Oh yes. Yeah.
BR: That’s the one that’s enlarged there and —
EM: They’re good though aren’t they?
DK: So that’s Winstanley Hall in the background was it?
EM: That’s Winstanley Hall, isn’t it?
BR: Yes. That’s Winstanley Hall. And why I’m sitting amongst the daffodil apparently every year when the daffodils came out they were picked and given and sold to the hospital in Wigan.
DK: Ok. Right.
BR: And that’s the reason I’m sitting there with that in the background.
DK: I know the IBCC would love those photos.
BR: We were in Nissen huts.
DK: Yeah.
BR: That’s where we are in slacks and that.
EM: Yeah.
BR: It was a day off —
EM: Well, I’ll go through with you.
BR: Yeah.
EM: And make notes and then if I can scan everything.
BR: Yeah.
DK: And send to you.
DK: And send them to me.
EM: And you can choose.
DK: And I can send them on.
EM: What you want and don’t want, can’t you?
DK: Particularly the cuttings and we’ll see if we can —
EM: Yeah.
DK: Put the message out there about the lost cloth.
EM: But from Scampton then you went to Coningsby, didn’t you?
BR: No. I went from Scampton to Syerston.
EM: Right.
BR: But it was just, I think some of the Dambusters were posted there but I wouldn’t be certain.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But I never bothered about them. We never bothered about them. We were just WAAFs going on duty. Then we, that was it.
DK: So you didn’t mix with the men much then. Mix with a group.
BR: Well, we did because there was always a dance on the camp.
DK: Right.
BR: And the odd one would come to it but you’d just, they’d just come up and say, ‘Come on,’ you know, ‘I’ll have this dance with you.’ And you didn’t, it never made everything.
DK: Yeah.
BR: You know. They were just, when we were off duty we went to the dance. It was on every week. It wasn’t anything special and I wasn’t a dancer.
DK: Yeah. So how, so you left in 1946.
BR: 19 —
DK: ‘46. Yeah.
EM: You left. When did you go to Coningsby then? In 1945.
DK: ’45.
BR: Yes.
EM: Why? Did you get posted to Coningsby?
BR: Yes. I went from Scampton to Syerston.
EM: Yeah.
BR: From Syerston to Coningsby.
EM: Right.
BR: In 1945.
EM: Right. And so you were a teleprinter operator.
BR: And I was a teleprinter operator.
EM: At Coningsby.
BR: All the time. Yeah.
EM: But they, where did you live in Coningsby? You were in the Nissen huts in Pilgrim Square.
BR: We were. That’s right. That’s where those pictures were taken.
DK: Yeah.
BR: Outside with that cloth.
DK: Right. Yeah.
BR: I was Coningsby.
DK: So what, what was it like in a Nissen hut? Was it a bit cold?
BR: You see. I wish I could tell what he said.
EM: What was it like living in the Nissen huts?
BR: Well, it was alright because it was really, you slept in them and then you was going on duty and then when you come off duty if you were free we’d go in to Lincoln. To the YMCA. But Lincoln was not, it wasn’t a long way to Lincoln from Scampton.
EM: Oh, Scampton. We’re back at Scampton now.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
BR: But that’s what you did. And if not we went to the Nissen huts and —
DK: Yeah.
BR: Didn’t do anything there. We just used to sit around the fire and talk.
EM: What about when you were Coningsby? Where did you go when you were at Coningsby?
BR: Coningsby. Well, we were stationed at Pilgrim Square.
EM: Yeah.
BR: In the Nissen huts.
EM: Yeah.
BR: And well I shouldn’t say this it’s where my husband, where I met my husband. And if you want to know that story it’s lovely.
DK: Oh, well go on then. If you’re happy to tell it. What, what was your husband doing?
BR: He was a GPO engineer.
DK: Right.
BR: And he was, he wasn’t in the forces. What was it?
EM: Civil service wasn’t he?
BR: Yes.
DK: Yeah. Reserved Occupation.
EM: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
BR: His area was Woodhall Spa, Horncastle, Digby RAF, Coningsby RAF. Everything to do with —
DK: Right.
BR: And he was at Blankney Hall when it burned down. And Stan came to mend the teleprinter I was on.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And also the telephone exchange was just there adjoining the teleprinter room.
DK: Right.
BR: So he went to mend the fault on the switchboard, came off and went to the room which was the GPO room to wash his hands. And he came back with his hands wet through and I said, ‘Here you are. Dry them on my towel. I’m going on leave for the weekend.’ So that was it. Off he went. About a quarter of an hour later the telephone rang and a voice said, ‘When did you say I was going to take you out?’ And I said, ‘Well, I think you’ve had a bit of bad luck. I’m going on a forty eight hour pass.’ And he asked the girls in this, what he knew, when I was coming back. And they said, ‘She’ll be back in Monday night. And she’s got to be in by 23.59.’ And he sat and waited for me at Coningsby Station for, to watch me get off the train. And there he sat in his little Austin 7. And he said, and I could have dropped dead, and he came and opened the door and he said, ‘I’ve come to pick you up.’ He said, ‘There’s a good film on at Boston. Would you like to go and see it with me?’ He said, ‘We’ll get you back for midnight.’ So off we went to Boston to see this lovely film.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Which was?
BR: Eh?
EM: What was the film?
BR: Oh dear.
EM: I know what the film was.
BR: What was it?
EM: “State Fair.”
BR: “State Fair.” That’s it. And that was it. And from then on when he came to the camp we just kept going out together and —
DK: So, so it was a good thing you were in the WAAFs then. Because of that you met your husband.
EM: Yeah. Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: You met, you met dad through being in the WAAF and posted to Coningsby, didn’t you?
BR: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
EM: Yeah.
BR: Yes. That was the last place.
EM: That’s why she lived in Woodhall Spa.
DK: Right.
EM: Because he lived at Woodhall Spa.
BR: And in my off duty Stan would pick me up. He’d be going out to one of the villages like South Kyme.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To a little telephone exchange and I’d go with him.
DK: Yeah.
BR: But if we saw another PO van he used to say, ‘Duck down,’ because —
DK: You shouldn’t have been there.
BR: I shouldn’t have been in it. But that’s what we did all the time.
DK: Yeah. Ok. I think let’s wrap up here.
BR: And we got married.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And went to live in Woodhall Spa.
DK: Right, then. Can I, can I just ask you finally how do you look back on your time in the RAF as a WAAF? How do you look back on it now?
BR: What was that?
EM: How do you look back on your time in the RAF as a WAAF?
BR: Yes. I loved every minute of it.
DK: Yeah.
BR: It was so interesting and it was a routine. And —
EM: But you enjoyed it didn’t you?
BR: Yes. I did.
EM: And you met some lovely people.
BR: Yes. And they were going to have a Ruhr tour.
DK: Right.
BR: That was to see the damage.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
BR: And every so often the aircraft, the Lanc —
DK: Yeah.
BR: Flew. This was just after the war. Oh, I don’t know if the war was on and you could put your name down for a Ruhr Tour.
DK: Right.
BR: And so I put my name down but I never got on the Ruhr Tour because I got demobbed in April ’41.
DK: So you never flew then all the time.
BR: No.
DK: When you were a WAAF.
BR: No.
EM: She never got to.
BR: That would have been the icing.
DK: I should say.
BR: And if I hadn’t met Stan, and we were getting married I would put my name down for, was it Singapore?
DK: Right. Yeah.
BR: I was going to stay in the WAAF.
DK: Right.
BR: And go off to Singapore. But it didn’t happen.
DK: It didn’t happen. No. Ok.
BR: And —
DK: Sorry, go on
BR: So that’s it.
DK: Ok, that’s great. I’ll stop it.
BR: There’s lots of little things that happened that, you know.
EM: What?
DK: Yeah.
BR: The one that sticks in my mind. Oh, when I was on the parade ground the first night being a volunteer there was a lot of girls turned up but by morning a lot of girls had gone back home because they could.
DK: Right.
BR: So of course we had to stay because they were going to issue uniform and the WAAF officer went around with a corporal I think to see if your hair was off your collar. And mine as you can see was quite curly and she pulled it out of, down on to my collar to see if it was going to touch my collar and she said, ‘Barber’s shop,’ to this corporal. And I said, ‘What does that mean?’ Well, I could. I couldn’t turn around and say, ‘Why am I going there?’ And so she said, ‘You’ll have your hair cut to a certain length.’ And I went to the barber’s shop and there was a young lad in it, and he was going to cut my hair and I said, ‘You’re not doing that.’ He said, ‘I’ve got to cut some of it off.’ So I told him how much he could take off which he did. And from then on I lost the curls that I did.
DK: Yeah.
BR: And got, put it in a roll. You put it in a roll and tucked it in, you know. And that was alright.
DK: So long as it was off your collar.
BR: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
BR: To get it off my collar.
DK: Your collar. Yeah.
BR: And then of course I go first time out the corporal plonked my hat on.
DK: Can’t win.
BR: And funny how I remember her name. Corporal Blood.
EM: It’s good though, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
EM: Ok.
DK: Ok. Well we’ll stop it there. Thanks. Thanks very much for that.
[recording paused]
That was David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Betty Repton nee Jackson at her home [buzz] on the 9th of March 2018. Also there was her daughter Elaine Mablethorpe. That’s Elaine Mablethorpe. Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Betty Repton
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AReptonB180306, PReptonB1801
Format
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00:37:08 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Nottinghamshire
Description
An account of the resource
Betty (nee Jackson) worked in a library in Macclesfield before the war. When the war broke out, she went to Manchester to volunteer for the Air Force and trained as a telephonist. She did a course at Sheffield General Post Office before being posted to RAF Bridgnorth for training and then to 16 Maintenance Unit at RAF Stafford. Following training as a Teleprinter Operator at RAF Blackbrook she re-mustered and was posted to RAF Cranwell. She was released for three months to look after her ailing mother and was called back to the RAF in December 1944, being posted to RAF Scampton and later to RAF Syerston and then RAF Coningsby, where she stayed until being demobbed. When at RAF Scampton she was billeted in Nissen huts at RAF Dunholme Lodge. She handled Bomber Command intelligence report messages whenever a crew returned and met Guy Gibson. Betty met her husband Stan, a civilian General Post Office engineer, when being stationed at RAF Coningsby. Betty remembered a RAF officer who had a cloth embroidered with names of staff, but it had since been lost. When Betty and Stan married, they lived at RAF Woodhall Spa. Betty said she had loved every minute of her time in the RAF.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sue Smith
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-12
1945
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
5 Group
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
ground personnel
Lancaster
Nissen hut
RAF Blackbrook
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cranwell
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Scampton
RAF Stafford
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1085/11543/PPritchardA1701.2.jpg
665f37b1fc773d7c481a87e32db937c5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1085/11543/APritchardC170823.1.mp3
3aaf3d7ce542de333a9bec8d84eec5cd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pritchard, Arthur
A Pritchard
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Carolyn Pritchard about her father, Arthur Pritchard (2206806 Royal air Force) documents and photographs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with with 463, 467 and 97 Squadron until he was shot down. He was hidden by the French Resistance until the liberation of Paris.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Carolyn Pritchard and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pritchard, A
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Carolyn Pritchard today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Carolyn’s home and it is the 23rd of August 2017. So, first of all thank you Carolyn for agreeing to be interviewed today. So, first of all do you just want to tell me about your father and what he did before the war?
CP: Yes. As he joined up on his, on his eighteenth birthday he didn’t have, after leaving school he worked for a baker’s delivering bread and that’s it really. And then he joined up.
SP: Yeah.
CP: On his eighteenth birthday.
SP: Did he ever say why he wanted to join the RAF?
CP: No. No. No. He didn’t. He didn’t mention why.
SP: Ok. So he went into the RAF and do you know what, where he went first of all? What he did?
CP: Yes. He was, he joined up on his eighteenth birthday and he was, he did his training at St Athans in South Wales. He passed out as flight sergeant and was posted to RAF Winthorpe in Lincoln where he was introduced to his Australian crew as flight engineer. And that was on the 29th of February 1944. He joined the 463 Squadron. That was the Australian squadron in RAF Waddington. They did seventeen sorties while they were in Waddington and they were Germany, over Germany, France. And on the 9th no, sorry it was the 7th of May 1944, the pilot officer Bryan Giddings and crew, that was dad’s crew, they posted, they were posted to 97 Squadron. That was the Pathfinders and that was at RAF Coningsby. They completed another three missions. Seeing action in D-Day. On their twenty first sortie, that was the 9th 10th of June 1944, on a night raid over a railway junction at Etampes, that’s south of Paris, Pilot Officer Giddings and crew failed to return. Right. I don’t know how much —
[recording pause]
CP: After releasing flares over the target the Lancaster ND764 was hit by flak and they were then attacked from below by a night fighter. Many many years later when he was able to relate his story to me he recollected the moment the aircraft was hit. The inner or outer port side engine was on fire. He wasn’t sure which one it was. The suicidal height at which they were flying, the noise, the smoke in the cabin and unable to communicate amongst each other, the cramped conditions in the cockpit, no place to wear your parachute. He always stored it on the floor. Frantically searching for it, the rush of cold air from the open back door. That was the navigator jumping out. Then he trying to prise, prise open the escape hatch at the front. Every second was wasted. Making survival impossible. The whole episode could not have lasted more than a few minutes and before he realised it was a doomed machine he, he had jumped out.
SP: So, how Carolyn, when he told you that, how did you feel when he was relaying the story?
CP: Well, a couple of years later we’d gone back to RAF Coningsby to see the Lancaster and we were able to go on board. And I could then visualise because the Lancaster wasn’t aircrew friendly at all. It was so small and cramped. And I felt so sorry for the mid-upper gunner. Where he was positioned would have been impossible for him to get out. And the tail end Charlie was, he was in this small little cockpit and again that would have been impossible for him to get out and the aeroplane was going down so fast. And eventually when they did find the bodies they were found in, in the aircraft. Yes. The three of them.
SP: So three —
CP: Were, yes it was the bomb aimer, the mid-upper gunner was, he couldn’t get out and the rear gunner which was the tail end Charlie. They are the three that couldn’t get out. The pilot had jumped out when the plane was very very low but his pilot, his parachute didn’t open. And also the wireless operator. No. I’m muddling up now. It was the navigator. The wireless operator had jumped out already and it was the navigator that had jumped out without a parachute and he was found with the whistle in his mouth. So he’d obviously survived the crash but I don’t know how long and was trying to attract attention. Yes.
SP: And how was your father when he was talking about the story?
CP: He was, he’d put the whole episode really at the back of his mind all the years we were growing up. Even though he used to talk about them. The crew.
[recording paused]
SP: So Carolyn, obviously it’s quite emotional talking about your father and the crew there so can you just talk me through what happened then after he’d got out of the plane.
CP: Yes. Because the aircraft was on fire and it was so low he’d baled out and he’d sprained his ankle. So he was hobbling around the French countryside with a damaged ankle and famously asking villagers for the way to the coast. He was trying to get back to the coast. Eventually he’d arrived at a small village, Egly and entered the local church. He’d seen a local man at the altar and [pause] and told him in broken English that he was Welsh. That he was an RAF airman. The French man couldn’t speak English and what he did he took, he gave dad a glass of water and then he took him to a café opposite the church. On entering the café dad waved a hundred franc note from his RAF kit and ordered champagne for everybody in the, in the café. There was panic as the Germans were in the village and he was hastily ushered to the back room. A young teenage boy from the village was brought in. He could speak a little English and he asked dad to explain what had happened. Dad said that his aircraft had been shot at and that he’d baled out and, but he was really uncertain with the rest of the crew and he kept asking and asking how they were. So that they could check his identity with London they hid dad in a small air raid shelter underground and if they, if he hadn’t checked out right I think they would have just left him there. Once the ok came from London the local leader of the French Resistance was summoned and put him in the care of Monsieur George Danton and his family. They risked being shot if caught hiding a British airman and he was given a new identity, well an identity and civilian clothing. His ID was a deaf and dumb Frenchman. And a bicycle. He was moved from safe house to safe house until eventually he ended up in Paris. In Antony in Paris. He was always instructed to follow a parcel tied to the back of Mr Danton’s cycle. Not Mr Danton himself. And once they had arrived at Mr Danton’s house in Paris Mr Danton went into the building without the parcel. The parcel was still left on the bicycle and a few minutes later came out, picked up the parcel, took it into the house and then dad followed. And that was the time that they could embrace each other because they knew then that they were in a safe house.
SP: So, Carolyn obviously dad’s now in the safe house. Did he talk about what life was like in the safe house?
CP: Yes. He did. He kept a diary while he was there. Life was very mundane. And there was little food. Jam and bread kind of thing. And now and again they used to try and get a cigarette for him because he was absolutely desperate for cigarettes. And then they tried to teach him. They tried to teach him a couple of French words to just to get about and whenever it was a bit safe for them to go out Mr Danton used to take him to the, some of the airfields where the German, the Germans had their weapons and aircraft and say to dad, ‘You make sure that you remember this. That when you get back to the UK and you’re debriefed that you can tell them where things are.’ That kind of thing. Yes. Yes.
SP: So, how did he actually get back to — obviously he was in a safe house.
CP: Yes.
SP: How did he get back in to the UK?
CP: He was, he was in the safe house for over two months. And then there was the liberation of Paris on the August the 24th. Right.
[recording paused]
CP: Yes. On or about the 23rd of June they tried to get dad back to the, to the UK. They were expecting a Lysander aircraft to land on, on a landing strip but they tried a couple of times but it was, they felt it was too dangerous because the Germans were still, still around. So they had to, it was just too risky so they had to abort. They tried to get him out there but eventually he hitched a lift with a war correspondent for the Sunday Pictorial. A Rex North. And they eventually got to Paris. On the way there they were, he was given a bottle of champagne which I’ve, we’ve still got today actually in the house. Undrinkable. Yes. And eventually on the 24th of August he flew back in a Dakota to the French, from the French coast to Hendon. And at that time, after that he was debriefed. He had to go down to London to be debriefed to what he’d seen. And, and that was it.
SP: Did he talk at all about the debriefing? Did he say that was like or —
CP: No. He didn’t. He remembered. He had a marvellous memory. He’d remembered everything he’d seen while he was in Paris trying to help. Trying to help while he was back. No. He didn’t actually. No, he didn’t.
SP: And what happened after the debrief? Did he, what happened to him after that?
CP: Well he, he’d, he was allowed home. One thing. One thing that struck me when I was, I had always been speaking to him over the years was how he didn’t get any counselling and everything. There were so many people killed and he kept asking, ‘What’s happened to the crew? What’s happened to the crew?’ And they didn’t know. Even the crew, years and years later after speaking to the crew’s families they hadn’t known for years, well months, what had happened to them. And he was allowed to go home. Which, he came back to our little village here and, and that was it. He had a couple of weeks here and then he was posted to Scotland as an air traffic controller. So that was the end of his war. Yes. And where he met my mother.
SP: Right.
CP: She was in the RAF as well. She was a WAAF. Yes.
SP: So, obviously they met up in Scotland and then —
CP: Yes. They did. Yes. Yes. They met up in Scotland.
SP: And came back to live in Wales.
CP: Eventually, they did. Yes. They, they got married and always lived in this little village. Yeah. My mother was from Liverpool. Yes. Yeah.
SP: And then what did your father do after the war?
CP: He worked in construction. Working for big machinery. He was offered a career in the RAF as [pause] I think in Canada. They wanted him to be trained in Canada but he wasn’t interested anymore after going through such harrowing experience during the war. He didn’t want anything to do with flying. Yes. So he took a different career.
SP: What about you? How did it affect you growing up with your father’s stories? Was it —
CP: Well, it did. He always, he always, he hid a lot. He always talked about the boys.
[recording paused]]
CP: Yes. Always talked about the boys to our families. And as we were growing up we knew about them even though we had never met them. And when my sister Shirley and her husband had got married they had gone to Europe on their honeymoon and thought they would try and trace first of all the French Resistance families to try and get back in touch again. Which they did. They managed to, to get in touch with the French Resistance. That was in 1977. I think it was 1977. And eventually my dad went over for the first time in 1977 to meet the families of the French Resistance. And ever since, all his life he kept in touch with them. They either came to our little village here to see him or he’d gone back to see them. All always visiting the boy’s graves. By that time he’d known that they perished and they knew exactly where they’d been buried and the stories. The harrowing stories that followed. Yeah. So we did know the boys. And he used to come up with some funny stories about them. Like if he had a date with a WAAF they’d all go to the pictures together [laughs] Yeah.
[recording paused]
CP: Yes. He used to talk, like I said about the boys. One was an avid reader. Always had a book. Even when they went on, on their ops at night and the pilot used to have to say, ‘Put that light off,’ because he had this tiny little light in his, he was a upper-gunner. Just in case he attracted the Germans. And I think the rear gunner used to write poetry. I’m sure dad said he did. They were well educated. Very very well educated men. I think they taught my father a lot because first of all they couldn’t understand him when he joined the crew because he was Welsh speaking all his life. Had a very big accent. Welsh accent. Could hardly speak English to be honest. Yes. And they taught him a lot of culture. Yes. Took him to London on their time off when they had time off. And a few of them used to come to our little village when they, because they couldn’t go back to Australia obviously when they had time off and they used to come to the village here. My dad’s family had met them. Yes. Lovely men.
SP: And you kept in touch you say, with the Resistance.
CP: Oh yes.
SP: Did you keep in touch with the Australian families as well?
CP: Families, as well. Yes. And that, well he hadn’t really because I’m one of eight so during, during his time while we were growing up he had a lot on his hands [laughs] So he, he didn’t have time but as we grew up and we knew about the boys I used to try and say, ‘Oh, do you remember where they came from, dad?’ And all that. Anyway, I think it was in 2004. I think it was 2004 there was a knock on the front door and a man handed my father a letter and left. So he read the letter and it was a member of the crew. It was the Webb family. And they had found out my father, where my father lived, managed to get somebody that was connected to the 97 Squadron website, Ron Evans, to deliver, who lived in Wales, to deliver a letter to dad introducing themselves. Saying that if he didn’t want to get in touch, you know, keep in touch or get in touch with them that was ok. But my father was absolutely thrilled he had their address. They lived in Sydney so, and then we, I was on the internet then so I was able to email them and say yes of course. I think it was 2006 they came over from Australia and spent six weeks in Wales with us here. And that was very nice. And then the McGill family, that was the upper gunner, they came over in, I think it was just over two years ago and we went to the Bomber Command Spire. The unveiling of the Spire. They came and we were in touch and we’re still in touch with them all. Yes. We’re still in touch with the Australians. Lovely people. Send Christmas cards every year. Have letters from them. Yes. Unfortunately, part of, well the Giddings family they’ve, they’ve died. We’ve lost touch there. The Clements family the same. But the Seales we still speak to. The Webbs and the McGills. Yes.
SP: And how important is that to you to keep that contact going?
CP: Oh, it’s very important. Yes. The boys. Memories are still, still there. And actually the, actually both families the McGills and the Webbs we actually went over to France on different occasions to stay with the Dantons and to visit the graves. Yeah. So that they could see where they were. Yeah.
SP: So, we were talking about your father earlier. You mentioned on the day of the final flight.
CP: Oh yes.
SP: For the whole crew.
CP: Yes.
SP: They had certain superstitions. It didn’t feel quite right that day. Do you just want to share that story?
CP: Yes. Yes. They used to, well they used to, you know just before they taxied off for the mission they used to wee on the front wheel. But that particular night three or four WAAFs had come down to the air, airfield to wave them off so they couldn’t carry out the weeing. So that was the night that the plane was shot down so my father felt that if only they’d wee’d. Yeah.
SP: Did you talk about that? Saying that was a superstition that they had.
CP: They all, yes. They always carried it, they did that every time they went on a mission. Yes. But not that particular night. Yes.
SP: Just chatting, is there anything else you feel you want to say about that you haven’t had the chance to say about your father or any, the impact on the family or anything like that?
CP: Well, I think, I think going back to when they used to come back from their missions and then they were always, they always were given a big breakfast. And they’d be sitting there with their cigarettes obviously. And they used to call, they used to have tablets, uppers and downers I think but he never used to touch them. But the coldness of when they used to go into the mess and the fact that their locker had been cleared and as if they had never existed. You know, the crews that had never returned. I just felt that that was very sad and he always used to feel that was very sad. Yes. And the fact that he didn’t know, while he was in France, he didn’t know what had happened to the rest of the crew and he’d asked and asked and nobody knew and it was months later that he did find out and that was so, so sad for him. Yeah. Because they were best of friends. Did everything together.
SP: That’s ok. Alright. Well, I just want to —
CP: Yeah.
SP: Thank you Carolyn very much for sharing those stories and obviously the impact on you as well.
CP: Yes.
SP: So, on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre thank you very much.
CP: Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Carolyn Pritchard
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-23
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APritchardC170823, PPritchardA1701
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:26:53 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Carolyns father, Arthur, joined the Royal Air Force on his 18th birthday. Following his training as a flight engineer, was posted to RAF Winthorpe. He was allocated to a crew consisting entirely of Australians. In February 1944 the crew were posted onto Lancaster aircraft of 463 Squadron at RAF Waddington. On the 7th May 1944, they were posted to 97 Squadron at RAF Coningsby. It was from RAF Coningsby on their 21st operation on board ND 764, they were shot down 30 miles south of Paris. Carolyn describes in detail the events, from the aircraft being damaged by anti-aircraft fire and then being attacked by a Luftwaffe fighter, to the escape from the aircraft and subsequent contact with French civilians who sheltered him up to his return to the UK after the liberation of Paris in August 1944. Following his return, Arthur was granted three weeks leave. He did not return to flying, instead he retrained and became an air traffic controller. He was posted to Scotland, and it was here he met his future wife. In the 1970’s, whilst on a holiday in Europe, her sister managed to establish contact with members of the French Resistance who had sheltered Arthur. In 1977 Arthur was able to visit them and the graves of his fellow crew who did not survive and remained in contact for the remainder of his life. Carolyn recalls her father describing a superstition the crew used to carry out before each opeion. Each crew member would urinate on the aircraft wheels before boarding. Several members of the Women's Auxiliary Air Force came to wave them off on their last opeion and discretion meant they were unable to carry out their routine.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
France--Paris
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-02
1944-05-07
1944-08
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
463 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
evading
final resting place
flight engineer
ground personnel
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF Waddington
RAF Winthorpe
Resistance
shot down
superstition
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/472/8355/PBlandC1501.2.jpg
47607dc4beca689cae653908ef391be8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/472/8355/ABlandC150817.2.mp3
7d011bdc0c7786974101ce4ef3b8516e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bland, Charles
C Bland
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Bland, C
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Charles Bland (538762 Royal Air Force). He served as an engine fitter.
The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Charles Bland and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
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CB: My name is Charles Bland and this is my story of what, the Air Force I suppose. I started off in grammar school, Boston and then I did my school certificate and my school certificate results were sufficient that I was able to become, join the Air Force as an aircraft apprentice in February 1942. February 1942. It was the first time you’d left home and we all had to arrive at Marylebone Station and it was February the 18th, I think it was, February the 18th, and so I left Boston, got down to London and, and found on Marylebone Station a great number of boys, all the same age as me. Most of them the first time they’d ever left home and so I consequently got on this train and I happened to, it was a non-corridor train and you had the compartments and I got in the compartment and they were all Geordies. You sort of, I mean, I’d never met Geordies before or anything and the, the chap who -
[machine pause]
Yep ok, we got in the carriage and that was the first time I’d sort of been away, more or less, and mixed with a lot of other boys from different parts of the country. Eventually we got there and we got to Halton and we, the first time we’d ever been in a room, we got to a room and there was twenty two of us in the barrack room and all of us were exactly the same. Most of us had never left home before and the most, I got, my chap in the next bed to me was a Scotsman, a chap named Jock Blythe and, but anyway that’s how we, we eventually got in and then we, then they, we all had to go off and go in the mess and we all sort of got together and then, of course, became the thing of joining the Air Force and the first thing we had was a medical, and the medical I failed. I failed because in this, for some reason or other, the Air Force had decided that you had to have bite, what were known as biting points and I had one biting point short so therefore I was not fit to be in the Air Force and for some reason or other, I was discharged. So I never joined, so they sent me back to Wendover Station and there was another chap who finished up, an armourer and myself who had failed our medicals and we stood on the platform station and waited for the train. Both, well, dispirited I suppose, and the next thing was, the warrant officer who was known as Beefy Paley eventually came on and called out our names. What was his name? Damn, I can’t remember. Anyway, he became an armourer. So he said, Charles Bland, so we all went back, the two of us went back to Halton and for some miraculous reason they found us a biting point, so I was in the, I eventually got in the service. So I -
MJ: What was your favourite biting point?
CB: The biting. I have no idea. This biting point was how your teeth clamped together I think, I don’t know, I never did find out, but I was in the Air Force. I didn’t care much then. And so we, I came, went back and but then of course, because I’d dropped behind, I was at, my number is a hundred behind where I, where the chaps were originally, but anyway that all came, it all came about but so on February the 19th, February the 19th, I joined the Royal Air Force and got sworn in and got this number, 578762, but er, but you see where the people that I was with, I should have been 662 not 762 but anyway, I went back to visit the beginning. All the initial because there were several methods of getting in as an apprentice. There was service candidate in which was all based on the fact that you had a father or something in the Air Force. By examination which was then you went on, did the exam and various, how you finished up on the exam, or what was known as a direct entry. I was a direct entry because I had sufficient, I had [unclear], what they were called? Credit standards. I think credit standards in my school certificate in maths, physics and chemistry and that allowed me to go as a direct entry. I was a direct entry with others but all of us, a direct entry were in the beginning, direct entry and service candidate had the first choice and then the others who did the examination, depended on where you came in the examination, what you got, how you got treated, but anyway that was it. We all got uniforms and we all won and we all got our classes, all got our classes, but then you had to be, oh I remember this, in this, my barrack room where these, these, all these people joined in and you all had trades. Now, the trades all, you had the one, was the radio trades, ‘cause they went to Cranwell, they didn’t do at Halton but then the others that were all picked out. You all got selected, if you like to put it, what you were going to be. You’d put down on your exam, on your joining what you’d like to be but it didn’t, yeah, it didn’t necessarily mean you did, because, we, in this barrack room where we were, ‘cause we had all those, I wanted to be an engine fitter. Some wanted to be riggers, armourers and instrument makers. Those were the Halton trades and we, we came back and I always remember, oh God, I can’t even remember his name now. Damn, damn but anyway, anyway this we all went this way selected and we got selected and said, you know, I was going to be an engine fitter. That was all. Then there was Jock Blythe, he fancied airframes so he was, and he was alright, but then we had one chap come back and he come back to the barrack room after being selected, and he was in tears and we didn’t quite understand why he was crying, and we thought maybe something had happened, but he came back and said, you know, I mean we were boys and I mean, we’d only met each other but you know you’d think well, why, you know, some sympathy for why he was crying. And why he was crying was that they’d made him an air frame fitter, and he wanted to be an engine fitter, so that was why he was crying. I met him years afterwards and he always, he always used to say, you know he always used to, he was a crew chief same, crew chief with me [unclear] for years on, but it was this business that he cried when he was at Halton, went years on. Years on ‘cause he knew that he, he wanted a different trade. Oh that was something, yes, he cried because he was made an airframe fitter and not an engine fitter, and there we are, but then we did all the, we did all the training that was necessary. Well boys, when you get boys, boys together, all sixteen year olds and you see you, they, you sort of went, you, I think that you went there, you became a disciplined hooligan I suppose really. It was nothing. Because you all went there like choirboys but after you’d been with all this lot, you became as, you know, apprentices. I don’t know how you sort of became, I don’t know, you’ve got, because funny enough how, because you treated NCOs and everything as they were but you’d, I suppose you’d got a cheekiness and whatnot, I don’t know, but you survived. Well survived. I can’t say that but, but a chap, an ex-apprentice I met years and years later and he had been, he had been a Japanese prisoner of war, and for some reason he didn’t talk much about it, but he, his, he reckoned that his survival as a Japanese prisoner of war because he, he treated the Japanese the same way we treated NCOs and whatnot as apprentices, and he put his survival as a Japanese prisoner of war to the fact that he’d been apprentice, and that was his attitude towards authority. So that was it. But that was a digression from that. Anyway, I left Halton after I managed to get an AC1, oh, and I got thrown out of a class once through laughing, but then of course the, but then days as apprentice were something that, incidents, I’ll mention a couple of incidents. One which, because I mean you all swore, you did all sorts of things and the one was that I always remember we were doing, we had, of course, you had engineering drawing. We did all this business there and engineering drawing. Our instructor was, oh, very studious squadron leader I think. Obviously, he was just like a parson and of course, we all lot we had a, because you had, I mean as boys we buggered about, I mean it was, you know. It was one of the things and I always remember my, one of my colleagues, well I’ll say classmate [unclear], Rickards his name was, and he, he was on there and the he said, oh, and of course there that the thing was we always buggered about and of course, we were doing engineering drawing and his, his statement was, ‘Who’s the thieving sod who’s pinched my rubber?’ And this was part of everyone talked about, but the instructor was a bit like a parson he was, and he stopped the class and he said that, he said that it was getting beyond when one boy called another boy a thieving sod. Well, I mean that was of course, that all went and that, that was being an apprentice and then all sorts of things. You were hooligans really, because you did, you did, you know, filing and all the, all the rest of it. You learned how to file, you learned how to rivet, you learned how to do all sorts of things and the, another thing when you did welding or, welding was one and of course, we had, you always got somebody there who was, would get rather picked on. Picked on in a class and one who was a, who was trouble was a bloke named Bryce, he came from Devon and Trevor Boone was another, he was, Trevor Boone was a, he was a bit of a softie. He was rather, he had a tendency I suppose to be bullied a bit. Yeah, because Bryce was a bugger you see, he was, he, we’d do soldering abrasion, welding, welding and of course all doing, we’re doing, we’re doing that. Not arc welding, it was oxyacetylene and of course, then of course, a pair of pliers that you use and Bryce, of course, played his flame on Boone’s pliers, so that when poor old Boone picked his pliers up, he got his hands burned. Devilish things sort of like that. Oh, and then of course, you, ‘cause we had, there again, McDonald beds. Now, McDonald beds were solid iron beds but they had casters on because you had to, you had to make your bed up in the morning. You had this bed. One, the bottom half slid into the top half and your blankets had to be your biscuits which were the three biscuits. Mattresses, or whatever you like to call them, had to be stacked on one another. Your blankets had to be folded with, we had sheets, so the sheets had to be put between the blankets, and then one blanket wrapped around the whole lot that so it sort of made like a sandwich, if you like and it, that was it. Beds have to made up as laid down. That was the one of the comments that you had to do, yeah. But then we, when we managed and the time came then and of course, we had our drill and had to be marched up and down and of course, we had the pipes and the drums and we were all, and it was, it was you carried your books, you carried your overalls and you had these horrible ground sheets which were meant to be capes, and the trouble was when it rained, and you were marching and whatnot, your legs got soaking wet because the damned ground sheet came to your, it was only came just below your knees, you know, the edge of it, but there we are. What else did we do? We used to march back and forth and, oh aye, that was another thing. We had, because we had various engine, as engine fitters of course, we started off on basics, which was an old Gipsy engine, a four cylinder Gipsy engine we had and then of course, you, you moved off, but then of course, we were in, at Halton we were in, started off in what was known as the old workshops, and then they decided, because we had airmen and wartime fitters there, they decided that they’d move the apprentices to the new workshops which was, if anyone knows Halton, I don’t know if they’re all like that now, but the old workshops, the new workshops were newer buildings and across the other side of the road. I can’t remember our position now but anyway it was across the other side of the road and we all moved. There was er to, going down into the new workshops was a downhill run, if you like to put it, and of course, we happened to be when we, when they changed to the new workshops, we happened to be on the radial engines, which were mercury engines, Bristol Mercury’s, and we were on radials and then we had to move the whole class and our engines from the old workshops to the new workshops, and we had an instructor named Mr Petty. He was the instructor. And so as a class, we moved our engines, but the thing is, when you get a bunch of boys and all of us, they decided to move these engines and of course, these engines were in stands, on castors so we pushed them up to the top of the hill, but then there was a downhill run to the new workshops, so of course they decided then, of course, being boys and whatnot, we decided that the only way to get these down there was to run them down and stand on the stand so that it went down like a trolley. Well of course, this was all, this did very well until we came and there was a curb by the side and of course the next thing was, one of the engines of course, hit the curb and thank goodness there was a bank there. It went into the bank and tipped over but it was not completely over, but of course, it had hit this bank and of course, we came down. We had to heave this engine back on its trolleys and push it back into the workshops, and then of course the thing was, we all got there, and the comment, Mr Petty said that he could not understand why one of his engines had got soil amongst the cooling fins, but nobody enlightened him that it had fell, it had fallen over. But then you had, and I always remember, you know, all, you know, you remember these sorts of things. I remember we had another instructor was a Mr Palmer and Mr Palmer was quite a, he said, ‘If you’re using a hammer, use it’. Don’t, you know, don’t dilly dally with it. Use it. And there was a boy called Hind in our class and, Mr Palmer, I don’t know what happened there, whether it was a hard face or whatnot, but he hit something. The hammer head came off and it finished up in Hind’s stomach so it, it was quite funny really because all it was, was Mr Palmer just extricated this hammer head out of Hind’s stomach and carried on. Hind was a bit breathless but never mind. But there was the other thing we used to do oh, and that was again Butch Hind, was, we did magnetos of course, but then of course, using magnetos of course, you can charge, you know, the thing is, you get a spark and whatnot but they were doing magnetos, and it was found that Hind, by judicious of winding these hand starter magnetos up, that Hind could be charged up and I don’t know if it was, he wore rubber boots or, so he was, you had to gently sort of, Hind would hold the leads and get himself charged up and then someone would go up, put a finger near his ears and he’d get a crick across the ears, you know. It was, oh we did all sorts of things like this, I mean, it was ridiculous really. And we had, we had a lot of civvy instructors and we had one for basic was a Mr Tatum, and Tatum could do anything with a piece of metal that I know, but then you had, he used to be doing because you had to have your, some on the file and some on top. You had to hold the files correctly and if you weren’t holding the files correctly and you were doing something, you suddenly find you had a whack on the finger, because you weren’t correct and he used to come around and give you a whack on the finger. But it was, you know, I suppose, brutal really. I mean you wouldn’t have it now, ‘cause they was being mistreated or something. I don’t know but I mean, you just accepted it. You accepted it. Well he was, but I’m ok. There we are. Then of course, you had your various exams, and that was another one. Petty, another one. He got killed. He went aircrew and he became a pilot, he got killed in a Canberra. Colin Petty. And we had, during exams, there was various means of making bolts and one was what was known as a cold headed bolt, which had all these had different markings in, ‘cause this was all part of the thing of knowing what your markings of all these various equipment and steel and everything were, and one was, a bolt was known as a cold headed bolt and it was a bolt where the head had been pressed in cold. Not, not been turned. It was pressed and this had a ring around the top, but in the exam, it was, ‘How do you recognise a cold headed bolt?’ And of course, Petty didn’t know, and so Petty wrote, ‘Wears a balaclava helmet’. He got seven days for that, seven days jankers for that, for being frivolous on an examination paper. That was how, that’s how things were, you know, you got done for everything. You couldn’t smoke. Oh you got a smoking pass at eighteen, but you weren’t allowed to smoke everywhere and the toilets down in workshops of course. Toilets, yeah, and you could hear because you could have puffs, I mean, you could make a cigarette end last with a pin till the last puff. Oh dear, it was all sorts of things like that. As an apprentice, you did everything, always pushed to the limit, and it, and all your instructors. Oh, and there was another incident, I always remember that we had a named, chap named in our class, Dicky Burke, and Dicky Burke was, he was a oh, he was the same as anyone else, but one time we had a, we had er notes. A corporal, I can’t even remember his name, a corporal was giving, he was an instructor and of course he said we had to, I can’t remember what it was. Anyway, he said take, get your notebook and take these notes, and Dicky Burke said, ‘We’ve already got these notes’, and the corporal said, ‘It doesn’t matter, you’ll still do it’, you know. And under his breath, Dicky Burke said F you, and the corporal heard him and so he was wheeled up to the squadron leader, and in less than two hours, Dicky Burke was, was doing a stretch of twenty eight days in the guardroom, but he still had to come to, well he was doing a stretch but he, he, he was doing his spell in the guardroom but he still had to come to school. He still had to do his doings, so one of the corporal apprentices, a bloke named Ted Atkinson who was a friend of mine, had to go to the guardroom and march him down to school and then march him back up to the guardroom for his, his lunchtime and any off duty, so he did his twenty eight days on off duty, more or less, so he was one of these, one of these incidents that er, but he did the twenty eight days and was shovelling coal from one side to the other and all the rest of it, but as I say, they used to make you do anything. I don’t know, but that was Dicky Burke and his twenty eight days. I’m trying to remember humorous incidents of things and very, it was, of course we were apprentices anyway but then, of course, the other thing was they had Air Training Corps, ‘cause they were the civilian side. I mean, most of them were the same age as us but of course, we were apprentices as opposed to theirs was, well Air Training Corps wasn’t it? People that you join and they had the air training corps come and did a spell well in the camp near Halton, which of course upset those, a bit of an upset, and of course the apprentices raided them as normal, it was normal sort of business. Used to, oh dear oh dear. Apprentices. The other one was, all daft things really. And of course, you had not money, you used to get, we used to get paid a fortnight of three [unclear], nearly new two shilling pieces. That was our pay. Three, three every fortnight, which I mean you had, you could buy chips in the NAAFI and the old rock cakes and whatnot, but, but then of course, there was, generally you used to run out of money or something and they used to do odd, and there was one time, oh, what was his name? He was short of money, and then the thing was that we had, because there was twenty two of us in a room, twenty two of us including a corporal or a snag which was a LAA, a leading aircraft apprentice. He had one stripe on his arm and then you had a corporal apprentice, a corporal he had was probably in the bunk at the end of the room, was the corporal apprentice, but then of course, then they’d get someone short of money and one of the, one of the, one I remember is, I can’t remember his name now, never mind, short of money and then it said was halfpenny around the room. That would give him ten P. A halfpenny around the room and he’d run around the barrack block stark naked which was a, oh God that was brass and of course, he said he’d do it and that so everybody, but then of course, you had to, then had to, everybody, this was immediately transmitted all around the rooms that he was going to run around the block stark naked, and so that meant that everybody was, when he set off, everybody was at the barrack block windows, shouting and cheering him on as he went around. And that was another incident, anything to make money. And then there was, you had jankers, ‘cause that was another one. Your jankers, seven penneth for doing anything. No I managed to avoid that, I wasn’t caught smoking or missing church parade. Anything to scrounge. You get seven penneth and then, but then you were allowed, they decided that you, that the jankers would be separated from the other boys. For what reason I don’t know. And there was a Corporal Croft. He was a corporal in the DI we had and they put him in charge of, ‘cause we had the barrack blocks but then we had wooden huts, and they decided to put the, the jankers in the, or a wooden hut with this corporal in charge which was then, ‘cause he was Corporal Croft, and that was known as Croft’s Cottage, but I think, I think they abandoned that because you got all the ne’er-do-wells who wanted to pinch anything all at, do and that was not, they weren’t distributed cause they used to supposed to do jankers in the cookhouse and they were the ones that always got fed the best, ‘cause they always managed to purloin something. Food or something. It was, it was all part of the game. Part of the game. I mean the best of it was of course, some of the worst offenders became commissioned officers. That was the best of it wasn’t it? I mean years, years on. There was one there, Hammer Mallet, Tom Mallet. He was, he was one but he became a squadron leader engineer. Just shows you ,doesn’t it? How to become commissioned? Become jankers, you know. But then, that was the years. Went through that lot and of course came, I mean we were doing our drill with our rifles and bayonets and all the rest of it as well, and then came the day of passing out and then you had to do, but then you had your exams but then your exams depended on where you were doing, whether if you got, if you got called that you would do your oral exams and boarded, as they used to say, and you’d go for your board to these, you know, either senior NCOs or officers and you were questioned on your trade. I mean, as well as written exams, you had written exams as well which was, you know, like school and whatnot, but your boards were you were all against mostly to gain your trade. They asked you, you know, how you would identify some stainless steel or some question how would you do this or do the other, various things so, but then you, you’d do your board and then if you were you didn’t know how you were doing, you sort of go back again and then, and sit down and go back where you came from and then someone would say, ‘They want to speak to you again’. And you’d think, now that meant either one of two things. That A) you hadn’t got enough marks to pass out or B) you got sufficient marks that they were doing, that they were doing you that instead of AC2 pass out or AC1, you got an LAC. That, that was the thing but I mean, you had to know whether you’d done well enough or poorly or not because if they asked you back again and you’d done very poorly and you were only getting to re-boarded, you again to become an AC2 and I got, I had to go back again because I didn’t get an LAC. Anyway, I did, I finished up AC1, that was how I passed out. I passed out then from Halton, that was then and they said, right then, we are posted. Where were your choices to be posted? Well I come from Lincolnshire so I suppose you put Lincolnshire. I mean, ten to one you never got what you put down for. I put Lincolnshire and I finished up, posted to Kirton Lindsey. That was, and of course the thing was, in those days, and you used to get trains and you didn’t know where you were and blackouts, and you get on a train. There was several of us posted to Kirton Lindsey, I think about four, four of us posted to Kirton Lindsey, and of course, on these trains, you didn’t know where the hell you were going. You got a train, you had to get a train to so and so, and then of course, the only time you ever knew where you were, was if some porter called out, you know, the name of the platform or stop where it was, and we got out at Kirton Lindsey. There was four of us and some airmen as well, and so we got out there and some of the airmen were worldly, more worldly wise, get transport, and they eventually came, got transport and of course, it’s a blackout, you didn’t know where the hell you were. Got to, went to this, got to the station and eventually the guardroom and we were then sent to transit block. Transit block. And the transit room, you went in there and you, you were, I can’t even remember now whether you had, whether there was bedding in there or you had to go to the bedding store and get your blankets, I think. Anyway, doesn’t matter. Got there and eventually we got dished out to the general office, and then we were given wherever we were going, so it’s, you were sent down to the tech side and then they decided where you were going, ‘cause I mean, they were riggers or fitters. I finished up in R&I. R&I. We were doing majors on Spitfires there. Got R&I, some of them got others. And there was another place called Hibaldstow, which was a satellite of Kirton Lindsey. Two of them got sent to Hibaldstow. As I say I was sent to, to R&I. I don’t know, I think I was the only one out of our group who went to R&I, which is Repair and Inspection, which was the major. We were doing majors, majors on Spitfires but, so we used to have the flights when the flights board there, I mean, I mean, oh, and the other thing was, I must have mentioned this, the other thing they had now, so that we, we had, ‘cause we had WAAF fitters as wel,l and we had, I was put into, put into a gang with Corporal, Corporal Shear was in charge and I was put in this gang and of course, I was an, I was an AC1 apprentice fitter. Apprentice, ‘cause the others in the gang were all wartime blokes. One was a bank clerk, one had been, one was, one had been a waiter, I think, but they were a good lot anyway.
[pause for phone]
So we, now, we got to Kirton Lindsey now so that we got to the WAAF fitters, and I was put in a gang, and I can remember Corporal Shear was the corporal in charge, and all the others were wartime. Well one was a fitter, two mechanics I think, we were doing majors on Spitfires and Sadie was the WAAF, and Sadie was, I mean I was only, what, eighteen and whatnot, but I didn’t fancy her really, but I think she rather well she, I don’t think she fancied me. All she did was bugger me about really, ‘cause she would, if you were doing on the engine and whatnot on there and she was sitting on the main plane she’d, and you were doing something, she’d suddenly put her legs out and wrap them around you, you know. But she wasn’t really my type at all, so I didn’t really fancy her and she, the trouble with WAAFs. they either overtightened things or didn’t tighten things up enough. Couldn’t, plugs. they never put the plugs in tight enough and they’d bloody shear off a bloody two by eight or something like that. but anyway that was, that was the WAAFs. But incidents. Incidents, oh the other thing of course, they were Mark II Spitfires and they had Merlin 12s, and they had Coffman starters and cartridge so that you had a cartridge, and one of the things was the flight sergeants, ‘cause we had, oh all part and parcel, you had to, you had your sort of annual booze up and whatnot, and of course, then money had to be put in and the flight sergeant used to fine you for A) for being late if you were late for work or whatnot you’d, he’d fine you sixpence or something, which all went into the fund, and they used to do cartridge starters. I mean, you had to be starting a Merlin on, with a cartridge. You could do it with one cartridge or two but if you had more than two, he used to fine you sixpence a cartridge. So, so the thing was, you had to make sure it was primed and everything before you could, he’d be there, but he’d listen to you, and you would fire up on one and you’re all right. Fire up on two and if it didn’t fire you think, God there’s another sixpence gone you know. So that was the fine, I mean that was a fine for using too many cartridges, but that that was one of the things. Another incident here I always remember, we changed over from Mark II’s to Mark Vs and the Mark Vs were coming in, and this was during the summer of 1944. The warm weather. And we came, we were in, we were in R&I and of course, we were duty crew, if you like, and of course we were at, they were bringing in these Mark Vs and we were, all of us nice summer evening it was, sitting outside and we were all thinking of going down the boozer, and he said, ‘Righto we’ve got, we’ve got four, four spitfires coming in.’ And they were all sitting there in the sun, at the wall of the hangar and the first one came in and of course, then you were all sitting there. Who was going to see the first one in, and I said, ‘Oh bugger it, I’ll see the first one in’, and off I went in to see the first one in. Taxied in and, lo and behold, it was when, when the pilot of course, took her helmet off, it was an ATA pilot. A blonde. She had blonde hair, and who she was I don’t know, and of course, I saw this one in and of course immediately the others saw this girl taxiing this one in, they all rushed out to see the others in, but anyway I don’t know who she was, I’ve no idea. But I often think of the ATA pilots because, oh she was older than me but, and she had blonde hair and I often wonder, having seen ATA pilots, you know, years gone on and wondered who it was. But that was, we got Mark Vs then instead of, but then of course, the time came and then the incident I mentioned of the only time we got involved in Bomber Command In those days was, we had a Spitfire lab down at North Creake, which had Stirlings on and we had to do an engine change, and doing this engine change underneath the belly of a Stirling. That was quite interesting but then that was, then I’ve, then of course, my posting overseas came so then I went up to Blackpool and met all, a lot of the chaps who were at Halton with me. So that was, so we were at Blackpool there, getting kitted out. Marks and Spencers of Blackpool, well then because they had all the, which was Marks and Spencer, had all the kit in there so you, and when the tower, well anyway, that was September ‘44. We went, went to Gourock. Gourock and then we boarded this, I can’t remember even, can’t remember what my, my draft number was. Anyway, but anyway we were boarded on the Orion and the thing was, was this a battleship, no, it was a cattle ship, because there were five thousand, troops, troops in it. That was an incident. There was Army at the bottom, Air Force in the middle and the Navy at the top ‘cause they were the best. Anyway, so we, we went out on that, through the Suez ‘cause then, I think they’d cleared the Med of subs. We went to India via, via the Suez Canal and not around, around the end of South Africa. That was it, no incidents. We had some ex Australian prisoners of war on board and they were well fed, and they used to give us a bit of grub now and again, but and then eventually we got, got to India, but of course, the other thing of course, I’d better mention it that was the, the beginning of my marriage I suppose, ‘cause this friend of mine, who had had the, this corporal apprentice, had to go back to my brother in law who was, he was also at Halton but he was two entries after me, and my friend was a corporal apprentice, was in charge of his room and my brother in law, Bill, he, he gave my, he had a twin sister who became my wife, but he’s, this corporal apprentice started writing to Margaret, but then, I don’t know, it all petered out or something, and then of course, we came on, came on the boat going to India and of course, was one of the things, anyone got any girls to write to? And he gave me Margaret’s address and said, ‘Don’t tell her I gave it to you’. So I came out of the top of my head was a load of rubbish that I found her address floating on the deck of a bloody troop ship’ you know’ but anyway that was that. I wrote to her and of course that was, we got out to India and I was then posted from [unclear], I went to a place, I was posted down to Ceylon to a repair and salvage unit ,121 RS, oh R&SU I suppose. We just used to call it just RSU. So we went down by seven days on the rail, down to India, down all the way down in from Bombay, down all the way down India. Took us a week. Then to Ceylon and we eventually ended, finished up in a place called Vavuniya in Ceylon, and we formed, well I think we formed this R&SU there, We serviced Beaufighters. We had two Beaufighter squadrons and a Spitfire squadron. I can’t remember the Spitfires, but the Beaufighter squadrons were 22 and 217, and we did engine changes and then I got, I got detached to 22 Squadron because they were short of fitters, and I got detached there for a, for a spell. So, I was doing, working with 22 Squadron but then of course, everything changed and they decided that we were going on a, we got, we got sent, we got notification we had to pack up, what was it? Operation Marbrisca I think it was, and get everything, gear and of course it never came about and we then, we moved the whole lot, the unit moved up into India. And Marbris, that was an interesting thing because it was years, years later after I came back home and the I went to, went to school and there was a master at school who had also been out there, but he was in, in SEAF or SEAC operations and I mentioned about this, oh years about this Operation Marbrisc, and he told me what it was. It was in actual fact, they were going to take the island of Phuket. I mean we called it something else as you can imagine which is, I mean, is a holiday island now, and the idea was, they were going to build an airfield on Phuket and operate from there against the Japanese, but then he said that the casualty situation would be, was exorbitant and they cancelled it. So that was where we were going. This Marbrisc. Anyway, that was cancelled and we moved up into South India, basically to, I think it was preparation for the Malayan invasion, ‘cause we moved about. God, as an RSU, we sort of did anything. We did some servicing on Thunderbolts of all things. Then, then we sort of petered out and did nothing really. We sort of, all we did was, oh and then of course the next thing was, they said, oh we got issued with jungle green, so we all got issued with jungle green and we had, then we got to have equipment to do this invasion or whatnot, back up so we got a lot of new waggons and cranes and all sorts of things, all ready to do this repair and salvage, because we were supposed to, I think, we were supposed to service two Beaufighter squadrons and a Spitfire squadron. I don’t know whether they were the same ones that we had before but, but then of course, they dropped the atom bomb and that was, that was the end, that was the end of our sortie to Malaya, but, but then of course, the whole thing wound up. What was the next troubles? ‘Cause it became, the whole thing then, the war had ended and all the blokes that were in the war in Europe were getting demobbed, and people with the, on the unit with the same demob number were not being demobbed, because they were in the Far East, and then of course, we came, these problems what do they call them? What do they call them? Riots I suppose. I think they termed them as riots when they were bloody you know, I don’t know, you were nearly court martialled but anyway, but then of course that all, this came, the whole of India was like that but of course, we were regulars so we, we weren’t involved. They, we, we just didn’t get involved in all that, any of these struggles at all, but then of course, our lot folded up and we were posted to, and then they said, oh we’re going on occupation force Japan. {Unclear] and we went to a place in India called Tamberam, to get to move out but then they cancelled the whole lot so we were less than with all this gear and whatnot, in this Tamberam, and then they decided that we were going to be disbanded, we were. So all the equipment had to go back. All these new lorries and cranes and whatnot, so they were all moved and taken to a place called Visakhapatnam, I think it was. Viso we called it, and they took all this and there were hundreds and hundreds of vehicles. All just, all lease lend stuff. And that was, and they shifted us to a place called Redhills Lake, which had been a flying boat station, to disband. Well, and of course the thing was, and it had a lake there so we did a bit of swimming. That was for a while and apart from that, we did nothing, just sort out equipment, half of it got dumped in the lake and then the day came when I was posted. We were posted, we were distributed and I was posted to 353 Squadron at Palam, and that was Delhi, and that was right up north, and so the next thing was of course, to get the train from, was it Madras, I suppose. I think, I can’t remember where, so, to Delhi and oh, it was a troop train. It was marvellous, marvellous train because it had been a casualty train for, for carrying wounded, not a trooper and oh, it was most comfortable. Had a real good trip ‘cause against all the others we had a, ‘cause normally the trains in there you had same as the doings. You had the hard wooden benches and the ones that slap down on chains for sleeping on, but anyway that was, but anyway we got to Palam and that was 353 Squadron was a Dakota squadron, but then of course, they’d centralised servicing really so that it didn’t matter what squadron you were on, you were, you were put in workshops. I was in engine repair and in engine repair was you did anything really. A Pratt and Whitneys, it didn’t matter what came in and you said, because Palam was a, was a main, well it’s now Delhi airport isn’t it? I think, yeah, and Dakotas, but we used to get all the mail stuff come through. That was the Yorks. And we had also the, was it British Air? No, BOAC was it? BOAC in those days. And it had BOAC Yorks came because the airport was at, was at Palam. Well it was Delhi Airport, but part of Palam, but just around the peritrack and so I did, I did a spell with Dakotas and Yorks. I had engine changes on Yorks. We actually did minor a inspection on Lancasters that flew in. Oh, I did a couple of jobs on BOAC Yorks, but they had landing trouble and they had no fitters, and they used to get sort of co-opted on the engineer, BOAC engineers. They had no, no people at all, so I did a couple of jobs on BOAC Yorks while I was there and then of course, came a time that I didn’t get mid tour leave although I’d put my name down, I wasn’t lucky enough to get any. And then of course in April, oh, then of course the Partition was on. India was, and things were not, things were not very good then. You, you didn’t, if you wanted to go out you made sure that at least there was two or three of you together, ‘cause things, I don’t know why, they didn’t like us really. And then in April, I got a raise and I came home in April. I came home. I went out on the Orion and came back on the Chetril and then we arrived back. It was quite, they say about you know seeing England when you come back, it was, go on, anyway we landed at Southampton and we had to be shipped up to Burtonwood near, oh where is it near? Oh God, Burtonwood. Warrington isn’t it? I think it’s at Warrington. Anyway, when it comes to the point there, we got back to there and everybody was, of course all they wanted to do was get home, and they would have flown us and said this, that and the other, until everyone was chuntering and whatnot the bloke at Burtonwood said, ‘Right’, he said, ‘Get on the lorries and you can go to the bloody station’, you know, it’s up to you where, you know, you go. We’d got our warrants and I think there was, I think a train going south and a train going north and it cleared the station. Didn’t care, you really didn’t care where you went as long as you left there and on the way home. So, I sort of, I got from Warrington to Manchester, and Manchester and of course, while I’d been, while I’d been overseas, my parents had moved from Lincolnshire. They’d moved to Yorkshire, and so I didn’t know where I was going home so the er, got to, I got to Manchester and got to Leeds, and I thought what and I got my parent’s telephone number so I thought, oh I’d better, I’d better ring them and let them know, and so I phoned up and my mother answered and of course she said, ‘Oh your father’s in, in the Isle of Man at the moment’, ‘cause I said, ‘well can you, can you pick me up at the station?’ And so anyway the incidents, isn’t it? So, so I said, ‘Well I’ll go to Harrogate’. I had to go to Harrogate, from Leeds to Harrogate and the, get in the train and the, ‘cause I had two kit bags and your webbing and everything and you know you were sort of carrying these down, and of course I’d asked where the train, the -
[phone ringing]
Train was there and of course I’d got my kit bag on, and you know you’ve got a kit on, a kit bag on your arm, your webbing and a kit bag on the top, and of course there was an airman in a carriage doorway, and I says, I said, oh you know , ‘Open the door’, and I bend over and let the kit bag drop on the floor, and my father was on the, on the train and he picked it up, so and that’s how I met my dad. He came and then my sister, mother at the station. So, incidents, you know, that, ‘cause I came back and of course my father was on the train with the gear, and so my mother and sister at the station. The incident I’m trying to think of. Not that is, ‘cause I didn’t, oh dear, I didn’t stop by. OK now then, we’ve got to, we’ve got to Knaresborough, that was where my parents lived, so and the next thing I had to do, as I’d been writing to Margaret for, oh, since, when was it? 1945. I wanted to get down to Hereford, so I went down to, went down to, go down to Hereford but it’s quite strange really that I’d been writing to her there, but it was, I’d got down to, got down from Manchester, get down to Hereford and the, the last stop before Hereford is Shrewsbury, and I debated whether to get off the train. Why I don’t know but there we are, but anyway it all worked out. We met on Hereford station and that was, that was it, so the beginning of our relationship. Yeah. Anyway, then that all finished and the next thing was of course, we got posted and then, oh God, that was it. Posted, posted to Wheaton, Wheaton, what the hell was at Wheaton? I thought what on earth’s there? Blackpool, near Blackpool. So off I goes to, to Blackpool. Get back on the train, get off at Wheaton and what’s Wheaton? Trainings. Bloody training station, nothing to do with aeroplanes. Bloody drivers, fitters, blacksmiths, welders, everything bar anything to do with aeroplanes, and I thought, ‘What the hell am I doing here?’ So, anyway, of course, I arrived on the station and this is in, and I thought, you know, and I went and they said, you’re going to, you’ll be on one wing, I think it was. MTMs, Motor Transport Mechanics. So what the hell am I doing here? And anyway of course, I went in to the general office, off I went, report to squadron leader so and so, so I went to him and immediately I went in there and of course, there was a few, there was an MT fitter and whatnot, and me. So, anyway, I immediately said, complained, ‘What am I doing here?’ you know, and MT and all the rest of it, and this officer, whoever he was, said I was posted as an instructor. I said, ‘I don’t know anything about MT at all’. And this, I remember this officer, who he was, he said, ‘You’re an ex apprentice, aren’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes sir’. ‘Well’, he says, ‘In that case’, he said, ‘You can do any bloody thing’. So that was that. That was me teaching motor mechanics, MT mechanics, and I knew nothing about bloody brakes or anything like that. Well, I think, anyway so I went down to this, where was it? Where I was supposed to be? The phase office, that was it, the phase, the phase office, and there was a sergeant MT fitter there, and I said, ‘Well I know bugger all about motor transport’. He said, ‘Well I’ll tell you what’, he said, ‘I’ll put’, he said, ‘you’ll be on’, I’ve forgotten what it was, but he said, ‘I’ll put you with, there’s a civilian instructor’, he says. ‘You can have a spell with him’, he said, ‘you’ll pick it up from there’. Oh God love us all. So, anyway, I was with this, oh I can’t remember his name, and he was an ancient civvy and so I was picking up brakes and steering, and I never knew there was a blinking theory on brakes and how line up and all this business at all, and of course I was doing this and that, was the, I was on the first week. There was a fortnightly course for this MT mechanics. A fortnight course so I was in there for a fortnight. I’d done one week and there was a fracas in there, and one of the corporal instructors had clobbered a, or hurled a coupling at one of the trainees, and he was then immediately taken off instructing, and the only person to take, put on, was me, and he was on the second week and I’d only done the first week, and the second week was completely, was ridiculous. But anyway, so I had to do it. Have you ever taught, taught people about something you know nothing about? Well, that was what it was with me, instructing people. I had to try to gain a, oh dear, it was ridiculous, but anyway. Then, of course, funnily enough, then they started to er, a phase on diesel engines. Well funnily enough I’d been very interested in diesels, even in India, and I had had my father send me books on diesels, high speed compression ignition engines and whatnot, and so therefore I knew quite a bit, and when they started this phase on diesels, I said well I, you know, I’d done diesels. Oh, they were quite, and shoved me on diesels straightaway, so that was, that was the way it went. I finished up doing diesels and did various other things and then of course I, I, I, I wanted to get away from Wheaton. I’d liked to get down south somewhere ‘cause I mean I was courting then, I mean, and it’s a long way from, from Wheaton, Blackpool down to Hereford, which I used to do on a blinking short weekend. It was bloody fast because I used to have to, I’d travel all night back and have, get my breakfast and kit bag and sort of virtually go straight to the classroom, you know, and get straight, but anyway, but then of course I, I got, I got a what was it a payform 36 posting, because for some reason, I don’t know how I managed it, but anyway down to Hereford. At Hereford. And I was still instructing but when I got down there, I found out there was nothing there, it was equipment assistant. Stores bashers. I thought what the hell am I doing here? But then of course, I got there and the next thing that I’d got there was another, in fact an apprentice, ex-apprentice was a bloke named Don Rigby, and he was posted there as an instructor. He was, he’d managed to get fitter one scores in his career and so the two of us there. What the hell were we doing here? But then of course, we went down to the general office who sent us to this. He said, ‘Yes, you’re definitely posted here’. I thought someone had made a mistake, you know, but then we went to, the pair of us went down to see this squadron leader, and I said, ‘Well what are we doing here?’ I mean. ‘Well you’ve got to tell them all about’, you know, ‘it’s yours to sort of give them an interest in the mechanical things of aeroplanes and engines’. And I thought what am I doing, and we had no syllabus, we had nothing, so we had to, between the pair of us, we sort of worked it out, but God what a, talk about a working week. I think we, our working week was about two or three hours, all week, working week was two or three hours, so we were there so I mean, but we got on ‘cause all the equipment, all the store bashers, instructors, were senior NCOs. We were the only corporals there in the doing but er, we got on very well with them because if they wanted to go off shopping, we’d take their class on, you know. It was, it was or if, you know, something they were getting short of time and they’d, they’d use our time and it was doing but anyway, that all went on and then that collapsed but then of course, at that period of time, I’d been courting. This was 1949 I get, I got married, we get married. So, I got married in 1949, got back off the honeymoon, to the bunk was a piece of paper slipped under the door and it says, ‘Go to the general office ‘cause you’re posted to MCOS’. MCOS. What the hell was that? MCOS. Never heard of it. Nobody doing and this was at Wythall, which is just outside Birmingham. So, Wythall. Wythall. I’d never heard of a Wythall. No airfield that I knew of at Wythall, but anyway MCOS. We’d no idea. So anyway gets to MC, gets to, my, my colleague who was the other corporal there, he got posted, he got posted to, he got his posting to Suez Canal, so he was, he was gone anyway and there was MCOS, so got down to Wythall and doing I found out that this was what was known as the Mobile Classroom Operating Section. So I was back on instructing only in a mobile classroom. I was, as I’d done diesels and they put me on wheels and tyres for starters because I’d been, I’d been steering and whatnot, but then that, that, I can’t remember but I think the instructor on diesels, he was posted and they knew I’d had, done diesels instructing experience and they put me on to the diesels.
So that was that, but that was out on the road for six weeks and back at Wythall for a fortnight, so we roamed the countryside teaching. You went to any station that wanted you and you’d instruct on whatever’s going there, but there’s that was the biggest lot of rogues. The drivers, mostly the drivers, ‘cause you had a driver and instructor with each wagon and the drivers, I think they were the biggest bunch of rogues I’ve ever come across. Pinch anything. And oh, and then the other thing of course we, we were at Wythall which was, had been a balloon base, but Austin’s had taken half of it over to store, you know, their manufactured equipment and whatnot. Gearboxes and whatever you could think of and of course, it was, this was all partitioned by wire netting from the mobile classrooms and of course, knowing the drivers and whatnot and the people that were in Austin’s store place and whatnot, people got, stuff got passed over the wire which as the drivers were traversing the country, you’d get to a transport café and you could sell anything so, you know, parts of cars got sold but then they got wise with it, because the police, Air Force police and whatnot, got wise to it and you got, they, they stopped the wagons at the guard room and got searched and so you couldn’t have any, any Austin components in there, but they used to be fiddling the thing. They used to, somebody, one bloke even moved a whole family because, I mean, the classrooms were big and so they use it as a pantechnic and one chap moved somebody there. I mean they used to, these corporals would do, do anything really. That, but of course the thing was, you see, once you got to the station where you were instructing course they had nothing to do. You were doing the instructing. So they sort of you know did anything really. It was quite. They were a bunch, a really, especially one -
[Pause]
Right. So having, Wythall finished these mobile classrooms and then I got posted to the Middle East. The canal zone so, and the canal zone, went on a, oh what was it, oh I can’t remember the boat, but that was another one, anyway we got to, got to Abihad and Abihad was 109 Maintenance Unit, and that was the repair of Merlin engines, and they were set up, sort of posted on, to start up a repair service on Hercules but that never came about, and I finished up on the overhaul of the propellers. That was, that was a standard sort of a job but it was er, the mid, then of course we had the problems, in fact when my wife came out, the problems of the riots and all the rest of it which that we were, we lived in Ismailia, we had a flat in Ismailia but then all the problems came and we got, if you got enough points, my wife, we got a hiring on the Canal Road, which is not far off the Great Bitter Lakes, you know, where the canal goes through and we, we got this hiring which was a bungalow, it was sort of quite a complex of bungalows. It was typical Egyptian, oh, and of course, I must have mentioned that our bungalow was the only one with a bath, all the rest had showers. We had a bath and this bath must have been built by the Egyptian who made the tombs and whatnot, ‘cause it was like a big concrete but we were the only one with a bath, but then we had no hot running water so the only way we had a, the only way you could have a bath, in fact the ladies, my wife’s friends and whatnot, well, service people that lived there, they had a bath, you could have a bath and by having two primer stoves and put the zinc bath on top of the two primer stoves, get the water heated up enough, tipped in to this massive bath and put some cold with it and then you could have a decent bath. But the ladies, all the wives, there were quite a number of us there and of course my wife would ask the ladies if they wanted to have a bath, so they come and we’d heat, well my wife organised it and they’d have a bath then. Anyway, that was so that was it, but at that point in time was, was the, my wife was pregnant with our first child, and the point was then, then there was this big expansion programme of, I suppose with the V bomber pilots and whatnot and they wanted fitters and riggers back, back home and I was premature re-patted, but then there was a major problem of my wife was pregnant and of course, she had to come back and they, they, it depended on if they couldn’t come back, I’d have to go out, but then it depended whether the aircrew on the aircraft would bring her back. Would they have her and that and it was a Hastings flight and they said yes. So my wife who was, oh was she near, I wonder if, ‘cause that was, oh she’d be at least eight months. She must have been eight months so it was really, you know, it was touch and go, but anyway she came. They decided to take her so we, she came back in this Hastings or we came back in this Hastings and of course, the bloody thing went u/s in Malta, so we all had to get off and of course, she was the only woman on board the aeroplane. The rest was all, all men. She was the only woman and of course, then, of course in those days, there was no family accommodation. There was only women’s and men and so my wife finished up in this nissen hut all by herself and me in the, with the, ‘cause I was a corporal, with the rest of the men and because I was doing and then I remember in a morning, some chap out there says, ‘Is there a Corporal Bland in the hut?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I am’. He said, ‘Your wife wants you’. I thought, Oh God, you know, we’re not going to have the happening in Malta, you know, but no well when I went out she said, ‘When are you getting up?’ So that was it but eventually we, they got the aeroplane serviceable and we came back, and then of course, they wanted to put us in transit, and my wife said no I’m not going in transit, I want to go home and I’d bought a camera out there and then I had trouble with the customs. I said, ‘You can keep the bloody camera’. But they didn’t like that much, but anyway, we finished up at, where was it? Swindon Station. God knows what. Coming back in the milk train ‘cause we were going back to South Wales to her home in Newport or [unclear] and so we had there. So we, we finished up on this, and oh, Swindon I’ll always remember that. She was wanting to lay down and I said, ‘Alright’. and then of course, it was a bit chilly or something. Was it? I don’t know, but I know a porter came in and lit a fire in this waiting room, ‘cause there was only the two of us, and so eventually we, she kipped down on me, but anyway we got the milk train, we got back to, got to Newport and got a taxi from there and of course, the thing, because she was pregnant, my wife wouldn’t, wouldn’t tell her parents that she was on her way home. So, so we arrived completely unannounced, caused consternation as you can well imagine, but anyway that was it. I got posted to Worksop and she had the baby in Pontypool, and I think she’d have been better off in a military hospital then she was in a national health. I didn’t, she didn’t get treated very well there at all, anyway, that’s by the by, so we got to Worksop and I was on Meteors. So, posted to Worksop. Worksop which was an old wartime airfield which had been renovated, and we got Meteors there. So of course, I was, I was then a corporal still and then I got, I passed my senior technician’s exams, so I was a corporal, but I wasn’t really due for my senior, ‘cause at the time, wasn’t due for my senior and then I got my third. My sergeant came through, so I was a sergeant senior tech qualified. So that was the way it went on for the time being. I hadn’t, the time was it, wasn’t to go for the chief so that was the way it was. So I was on Meteors there in R&I, in Meteors so that was, that was my spell there. Then that went on till was it 19, I think it went on until 1955, and then a friend of mine who was also at Worksop, and he was a great reader of AMOs and he said, he said there’s an AMO about this new V bombers and their looking for aircraft servicing chiefs. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘that’s a good idea’. ‘Oh’, but he says, ‘they’ve got to be aircraft fitters’. Well I‘m only an engine fitter, I wasn’t an aircraft fitter. He was an aircraft fitter. Anyway, he volunteered for it and because he was an aircraft fitter, he finished up with it. Anyway, he was waiting and then, then they changed it and he came to me. He said, ‘Ay’, he said, ‘They’ve done, they’ve done a change on the AMO’. He said, ‘They’re taking on airframe and engine fitters’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘Right’. So I went straight into the office and volunteered, and saying that was in 1955 and, yes and that was at the beginning of ’55. Must have been because then I had to go and they said alright, and I got this and I had to go to Brampton for an interview for this aircraft servicing chief. So I went there for this interview and a panel of officers, wing commanders and educators and electrical officers and so I had to, you know. What the hell for I don’t know. They ask you all sorts of questions. So that was it. You didn’t know anything about it at all until, when was it? It would have been, when would this be? July, August something like that, and it came through and told me that I’d got to, now I’d got to, where did I have to go first. I had to go Wheaton first, to get, to go on an airframe course. So I went on this airframe course, which was quite a small one. I don’t think I learned much more than I knew in the first place, but anyway I went on this airframe course and then from then on, I sort of moved on to, we had to then, had to go down to Melksham to go on the instrument and electrical course, so having done that, we went to Melksham, and then they allocated you from Melksham. It depended on how well you did, what you, what aircraft you went on, ‘cause the Valiant was in progress ‘cause there were Valiant crew chiefs, had been trained and I can’t remember how many crew chiefs there was. Twenty of us on the course? Was it? I can’t remember now how many, but anyway, then it worked out the Victor came in and the Vulcan and, and the Valiant but some Vulcan crew chiefs had been trained before, but out of my course there was four Victors that went on the Victor. There was eight, eight, was it eight? Yeah, eight Vulcans and the rest were Valiants. So that’s how I was, and they did you, on the, you were allowed to volunteer which aircraft you want, went, went on but it depended on your position in the final exam which aircraft you got. Unfortunately, I came top so I was able, I had my pick of Vulcan, I didn’t want the Victor. All the others were interested in was the Victor, I wasn’t interested in the Victor at all so I went and got on the Vulcan. So then from Melksham, we went on to Avro’s. Was it Avro’s? No Avro’s weren’t first. Where did we go? Boulton Pauls power fliers I think. Boulton Paul. Was there Avro’s then? I don’t know. A V Roe’s. And then you had to, Bristols was the engines you had to do that so that was the end of, I mean, this was taking you up from, so that was, what are we saying? Was it May? May or June? I don’t know, ’55? So this was 1956 and we were all posted to Waddington, all of us, and all the crew chiefs, the Vulcan crew chiefs, were at Waddington. Half of us had nothing to do. In fact, what did we do, because I’d been in, here it is you see, you come back, you’ve been MT, so you’ve been working on MT and you’ve got an MT driving licence and whatnot, so I finished up driving a bloody lorry, making a car park. That just shows you. Crew chiefs. We were doing sweated labour if you like. And then the first Vulcan arrived in, was it June? July? Anyway, whatever it was and that was it and of course, the only one that was Geordie Colley, who was the number one, and so it did a while and then he had to go down to Boscombe Down on intensified flying trials. And then during this space of time, they’d allocated crew chiefs for the OCU. The first squadron which was 83, which became 44, and then the second squadron was 101, which was going to be at Coningsby and of course, we’d all been buggering about this long, so four of us, we decided we’d try to jack up the system a bit and we get posted to Coningsby. We were all ready for the Vulcan when it came, what a doing that do? Anyway, I got nominated by the engineering officer to go as number two to Geordie Colley, so I finished up going down to Boscombe Down on the intensified flying trials with this XA 895. That was the first Vulcan. The other one of course, the one that crashed, was Broadhurst was 897 and I was 89, with 895, so I went down there with Geordie Colley and then Geordie Colley’s wife had a baby, so I was left on number 1 with this bloody aeroplane that I knew, well I say you knew nothing about. You were one of the one’s that knew anything and everybody, before they did a bloody job, came and asked you was it right, and you had no bloody idea either so it was, and that was the way it went. So I did my spell at Boscombe Down, fell out with the engineering officer, and so he sent me back, which was very nice. So I came back to Coningsby. I get back to Coningsby. No aeroplanes at Coningsby so what, what do we do? You’ve got a crew chief here with no aeroplanes in the wrong airfield because they’d decided the Vulcan wasn’t going to Coningsby, it was going to Finningley, so we got four, four crew chiefs all trained up in the wrong place, wrong time, wrong everything, you know. So I went in to the squadron leader, Coningsby was on C&M I think at the time, ‘cause they were, they were, they got some Canberras there I think, but then I went in to see, ‘cause I went there, went in to see the engineering officer, was a squadron leader OCUEng, and so anyway ‘cause then he says, oh, do airframe and whatnot. ‘What have you done, Chief?’ I said, ‘Oh, just instructing MT’. ‘Just the man’, he says. ‘You’re in charge of MTSS’. So here am I, a fully trained Vulcan crew chief, in charge of MT servicing, so that was, that was it and I thought, well crikey I’m a, you know, I’ve got sergeants here, MT fitters. I’m not, you know, qualified but anyway it didn’t matter, and then there was another chief tech there doing, so anyway and then the flight sergeant came so I was able to hand over to him without any trouble at all. And they put me then, the MTO said, ‘Oh you’d better come on the MT operating section’’ and that was, I went on the MT operating section and that was when, I suppose, I achieved an ambition as a small boy. As a very small boy, all I wanted to do was drive a big lorry, and so anyway, ‘cause I had the MT operating section and whatnot, the MT, I had a 658 to cover me on everything and I managed to drive one of these damned great snow ploughs. So I thought I’d achieved a very ambition of long ago when I was a little boy, so that was it, but then, then of course things all changed and then the next thing that happened they, where was I? Was I still at Coningsby? Yeah. Or was I oh, no we got posted to, did we get posted to Finningley? Got posted to Finn, oh the, we managed to get ourselves, four of us, back to Finningley, and of course at Finningley, of course there were new quarters. No equipment barrack equipment in them. We were posted, so the barrack warden, you know, he said, ‘I can’t’, you know, ‘I haven’t got the men. I haven’t got transport’, I haven’t got do this, that and the other to furnish these quarters, which need doing, so what we did, I got the 658 and I could drive the truck, so we furnished the quarters. The four of us furnished our own quarters out of the stores and all the rest of it, so we furnished our quarters so we could move the families in. So that was, that was Finningley, and then of course all this was done, and then the next thing, they despatched me back to Waddington, ‘cause they, they were taking the Vulcan to America on a bombing competition. So they detached me back to Waddington so that I could go on this, the SAC bombing competition with these, with the Vulcans and because you weren’t allowed to, you were only allowed, you weren’t allowed to have two crew chiefs per aeroplane, the thing was you’d got to have, in your crew, you’d got to have a crew chief standby in case the original crew chief went sick, so I was, this was the best of it was, I was an engine fitter and basically an engine fitter, so I went as an airframe, an airframe mechanic. I went as an airframe mechanic to Florida on the bombing comp, so that was it, but then of course that all went. Came back home and then of course the second squadron, ‘cause the first squadron, the ones that were at Waddington had all got, been crew chiefs and got their aeroplanes, and my friend who got killed, Taf Everson, he got 908, XA908 but, and anyway they, they, he went and everyone got their aeroplane and because I’d been in America, course I was way down the list, so I eventually, eventually when was it? Would have been ’57, would it, then? Yeah, ’57 aye, yeah. Came up and I went to, I had to go to Woodford and I picked up XH475 that was, that was my aeroplane, so anyway I went up there and got that and became part of the squadron, you know. That was the crew chief. Didn’t matter what you were. And of course, got this aeroplane and took it all over the place. Got stuck all over the place. Lost an engine in Goose. Pump failure. So that was on. Got hydraulic failure, the hydraulic system in, where was that? Oh God. It was, oh dear. Where was that? And that was in America. I can’t remember. That was somewhere and then of course we got, come back and you did the ranges. Then they had the, what was it, oh I can’t remember. The exercises you had to go to. Butterworth. Was it profiteer? I don’t know what it was, I can’t remember now. So I took 475 there. I was flying, I was flying with the wing commander’s squadron. Flew out there and got out there flying and whatnot. I had a day off and of course they wanted to do something, and they, my aeroplane, I had a day off and I came, went back and found that some daft bugger had closed the bomb doors on the safety razor and broken one of the bomb door links. Oh God. And that was, I said, ‘That’s a brilliant one isn’t it?’ So, anyway, only had to be, how am I, there we were, how were we going to get back and there’s all the gear we got there and of course, you opened the bomb doors and we could open them and put all the stuff in and then you had to, we’d close the bomb doors. The only way then was we had, got local blacksmiths to make a turn buckle, and with turn buckle, so you could close the bomb doors and once you’d closed them, we wound them up so that you couldn’t open them. Anyway, took the fuses out and everything, so I had a bomb door, bomb bay full of US equipment, all my tyres had been burnt and worn, so I said to the wing commander, I said, I said, ‘I’ve got no I’ve got no gear in as I can use’. I said, ‘If we get left behind, we’re stuck’. He said, ‘We won’t get left behind’. But then of course, the next thing that happened was, I don’t know how, CRACK. My bomb aimer’s window was cracked. Oh dear. So I said to the wing commander, I said, ‘We’ve got a cracked bomb aimers window’. I said, I said, I said ‘I don’t know, we’ll have to fly back with it’. I said ‘I’ll do a pressurization and see’, you know, ‘if it’s alright’. He said ‘we’ll do the pressurisation on the way home’. That was it. So I flew home with a bomb bay full of rubbish, a bomb er, cracked bomb aimer’s window and came home that way. Landed and that was it. We managed without any trouble. I can’t remember, did we have any troubles? I normally get all sorts of troubles and that but, but I didn’t. I think we got back home without, and then of course, that was it. And then of course the next one was the CnC and whatnot, wanted to go on a lecture tour of America or something but he, he didn’t go in mine. He went on, I forget, was it 909? I think it was, with his own crew chief, Bill Neane I think, but then that got, flew via the Azores to Bermuda. Got to Bermuda and the inverter failed and his brakes, the brakes failed. The CnC wanted another aeroplane to go in so that was it. God knows what time of night I got knocked up in my night quarter, and they said, ‘Chief, we’re going, we’ve got to take, get an aeroplane to Bermuda. His inverter’s gone, brake units so we’ve got to take all the spares’. So there’s me, middle of the night with a pannier, getting bits and pieces and loading it all up, and then off we get to go to Bermuda via the Azores. The Azores. Always remember the, the, was he, is it Portuguese? I think he was, this officer looked as though he’d come out of what’s the name? I can’t think of the place. He had tassels on his uniform and all sorts of things, and did I want compression. I said, ‘Did I want compression?’ I couldn’t figure out what he was on about. Eventually I worked out that he, ‘did I want compressed air?’ Oh yeah, I wanted compressed air, yeah, so, but anyway that was left there without any trouble at all. Got to Bermuda and then of course met the crew chief and the crew of this 909. Landed there, got off the aeroplane and I got, got met by two Canadian Navy petty officers with a big bottle of whisky. ‘Come and have a drink mate’, you know. We’ve got, you know. I said, ‘I can’t drink and do’ and anyway my other crew chief there I said, ‘Alright we’ll have a drink’. So managed to have a couple of whiskies, but we got to change everything on these two aeroplanes because of all the gear from his aeroplane had to be transferred from mine to his and all the rest of it, so we did a pannier change and wheel change with the only support we had, ‘cause it should take four men to winch a pannier down off a Vulcan, was two crew chiefs and two drunken Canadian naval petty officers. So, but we managed and that, that was that. We had a bit of a problem. They had an electrical problem on start-up. It was robbed of, robbed a component off the aeroplane and that was my aeroplane cause I’d been, I’d changed, I’d made, well I’d thought I was going to go through with, with 476 but then, I don’t know whether the CnC wanted Bill Neane. I don’t know what it was but I finished up with this heap of rubbish in Bermuda instead of going onwards. And then, oh dear that, where did we get to? Yeah. Two drunken petty officers winching the pannier. It was amazing we got it down but anyway, we got it down. We got the gear changed over and everything, and Bill Neane wouldn’t drink anymore so as I was stopping, I was stuck. These two petty officers and whatnot decided we should finish this bottle of whisky. Oh God. What a thing isn’t it? So that was it. Then they changed over, then of course, they all got in. The bloody aeroplane went u/s again. That was the one I’d brought in so the CnC had to go, he had a date in America, the CN not the CnC was he? Not the CnC. Whatever he was. Whoever he was he had to go on by, by American transport and how humiliating really. So then of course, I had to rob, I robbed the aeroplane, robbed the u/s aeroplane to get this one serviceable. Then of course, had to get to America, and of course the CnC was acting as co-pilot, so of course there was one pilot missing, so the only way was the co-pilot that came up, came over with me, had to go on to America with this, with this, this other aeroplane. I don’t know how they finished up but anyway the co-pilot came back, but then, then of course the problem came, of course, I had this, left with this aeroplane in Bermuda with brakes troubles and inverter troubles. They’d sent an inverter, they’d sent an electrician out via BOAC to give me assistance on this electrical stuff, but then of course, he came out and I said, righto we’ll, we’ve changed the inverter. We’re alright. We’ll change, do the brake change. We can do the brake change and of course he was an electrician, and of course all he had to do to help me was to jack up and whatnot, and of course then, there was, then came a sorry tale. I got the jack underneath to, to change the brake units on this and I found that the bogie beam had a crack in it, a crack right along the end. Oh, at the end. I thought, what the devil do we, so anyway, all I got, I said to the captain, I said, ‘We’re in trouble here’. I said, ‘We’ve got a cracked bogie beam’. ‘Oh dear’, he said. So anyway, I’ve signals going back and forth, this cracked bogie beam. I said ‘well could drill a hole at the termination of the crack, but then the bogie beam takes all the stress of landing’. So I thought, oh well, but anyways I left it up to the UK air to decide, so they sent out a Doughty draughtsman, techno, oh, stress man or something, to see whether there was any possibility of doing this and he came out, and of course, no. Obviously he wouldn’t say it was even, if it probably was, because if it had cracked and the aircraft had crashed, it would have been him, so that was, that was it, so I was left there with this bloody aeroplane, with the rain pouring down, wind blowing, with this, with this aeroplane. Salt air was making things go a bit rusty but anyway they decided, well they had to change the bogie beam, the bogie beam. I don’t know [unclear]. The bogie beam carries the whole aeroplane of four wheels on one side, you know so, and the weight of the aeroplane so that had to be jacked up. The thing was, was all the equipment, was getting the equipment out to me in Bermuda and of course, the Air Force in those days, hadn’t got any bloody transport aeroplanes at all I don’t think, so they had, they had to hire, hire a DC6 to carry this. So I’d got four jacks, one hydraulic rig ‘cause retractions had to be done, so I had four jacks and a hydraulic rig, and of course they sent it out in this DC6, but fortunately they sent two, a chief tech out of their hydraulic bay and another rigger who was, he was, he was ex Halton boy, the same as me. So we had a chief tech, me a crew chief, a chief tech rigger, a sergeant rigger and a sergeant electrician and the aircrew, and these jacks all had to be built up ‘cause they couldn’t fly them in the aircraft whole so they were all in bits, so I had to build all these jacks up, fill them with hydraulic oil and do everything there to get these jacks up before we could jack the aeroplane up. And the other thing was a negotiation with the, the master sergeant of the hangar, ‘cause there was only one hangar on Bermuda and that was, had the doors welded open so that the wind could blow through it ‘cause otherwise it would have blown off and this, as I say, this master sergeant looked like Geronimo. I’m sure he was Indian anyway and we got on but he was not, he was a hard looking man and of course then he said, I said, well you know trying to negotiate use of this hangar for jacking up. He said, ‘Yes’. He said, ‘You can have the hangar but’, he said, ‘for twelve hours only and that’s all’. Twelve hours. I thought, bloody hell and all that, you know we’ve got to change and do hydraulic tests and everything on this, but anyway we managed it. And then a dry, to drive these axles out of the, of the bogie beam was, was the only way we could use - the Americans had solid chocs like sleepers and the way we drove these axles out of there was by one of these chocs and heaving it like a battering ram, but anyway we got the axles out. We got it all done anyway, and all the rest of it and retractions and the wind was blowing through the hangar, but we managed it. We did, we did it all. Much to, well we had to do it in the time, we hadn’t got much option and anyway, we got it out and on the, then of course all trouble started ‘cause then of course, I got water in the pitot system. That was ‘cause of all this terrible rain and the pitothead covers were bloody ridiculous so that was another job I had to do. Clean out, get all the water out of the pitot system. So that was it. ‘Righto’, he says. ‘That’s it. We’ve still got to do an air test’. So we got down to do, I forgot to mention that the only power, the only power source ‘cause the Vulcan bombers was a hundred and twelve volt DC and the only power source they’d got, ‘cause the Americans don’t use it, they use twenty eight volt but the, and only one we could do was borrow. They had a hundred and twelve volt for the, was it the Britannia on the, BOAC, BOAC side or British, yeah, British Airways side of Bermuda, so I had to borrow their diesel generator when they weren’t using it, so that was another thing. So I had to borrow this and then I had to tow it across the airfield to me. So anyway, that was, that was that was another thing, borrowing it and negotiating and all the rest of it. So we got that, got that done and eventually got it, got it started and, ‘Righto, we’re off’, you know and, oh that’s right. When I found that it goes boring off again and, that’s right and of course, they shut down and came back. I said, ‘What’s, what’s the trouble?’ ‘We’ve got no ASI’, no Air Speed Reading. This was when I found out that these pitothead covers were no good ‘cause I got water in the pitot system, so that all had to be drained, all that drained, done, everything else. ‘Have another go’. So we had another go, air test. Off they went and they flew around. I thought, ‘Oh we’re in business here’, they landed and I said, ‘Any?’ ‘Yes. Compass’. Oh dear God. Compass. I said, ‘What’s the matter?’ They said, ‘Our readings are wrong’, you know, somewhere along. I said well you know, so after much investigating, I thought, well it’s near impossible, the two pilot’s repeaters were duff. I thought it’s either that or the master indicator. The master. And I thought, if it’s the master, we’re in trouble ‘cause we’d got to do a compass sweep and all the rest of it for that. So anyway, back goes signals and the next thing comes out an instrument maker who happened to be an instrument maker off my entry of course, so I knew him personally. A chief tech. Instrument came back BOAC. I mean his, his, his excess weight baggage was off because he’d bought a compass, a master indicator, the blinkin’ whole bloody bag of shoots with him, and what state to do a compass sweep if he had to. Anyway, it turned out it was the two, as I thought it was, the two pilot’s repeaters were both u/s. Most unusual. So, anyway, that was, that was changed. I mean, mind you in this, [unclear] I know all this stuff had to be packed up and whatnot and landed on this DC6, to be flown back home and so that was another job. And where had we got to? Oh aye, the compass, that was it. Oh, that was it. Then the other things was, the thing that was before the compass, I can’t remember. Number 3 tank on the portside had developed a bloody leak and the Mark I tanks were not what I’d call brilliant. Anyway, the only way I could do it was, I thought, well I don’t know what I can do with this leak, and the Americans had some, had some peculiar sealant that they had, ‘cause they used a similar sort of thing that I used, and after much, as I say, I got to know this, my master sergeant quite well and I had a long chat with him, and I said, ‘Well have you got some stuff I can maybe cure this leak?’ ‘Cause I knew where it was. The tank where the pump housing and everything was, prone to split. The bolt holes tend to split so I, after much talk with this man I dropped the, I dropped the pump on number 3 tank and lathered this sealant in place, hoping it would do it because I mean, the tank change was beyond and so I had a go. It wasn’t, it wasn’t much good at all but then of course, we’d had the air test. We’d had everything done. We were all ready to go home, but with this tank and I said ‘well’, I said, ‘we’ve got the pilot who was’, Beavis, his name was. Who was he? He finished up a, was he master of the Royal Air Force or something? Mike Beavis, and I said to, and John Ward was the co-pilot, I said, ‘Well look. I can, I can put fuel it for you to go home’, because by this time, we were, we were, this was the only thing that was stopping us. I said, ‘To go home’, I said, ‘Look, we either if you can work it out with number 3 tank empty, we can make it’. I said, ‘Otherwise’, I said, ‘I’ll fill number 3 tank’, and this was number 3 tank port, I said, ‘And then you use all that fuel off that tank for everything to empty it’. And then I said, ‘What’s left we’ll just have to let it leak out’. And so John Ward did his calculations, that we could fly back with that number 3 tank empty, so I then sort of took all the fuses out, took the pump off it and everything. Well, the pump was there but I took the fuses out and everything so that the pump couldn’t overheat or anything, and that was, so we flew back from Bermuda to the Azores. So we land back to the Azores and so I said we were alright from the Azores back home with still number 3 tank empty, and then, of course, oh damn. The Azores, we started off on my pack that I’d got, with the battery pack that I’d got in the bomb, in the pannier, started up and was doing and then they said, Number 3 inverted, was the one that I’d changed, we’d changed in Bermuda. Number 3 inverter had gone down. I said, ‘Oh God’, you know, I said, I said, ‘Well we’re sunk’. I said, ‘I’ve no spare inverters that I can change’. I said we, we, I said, ‘Look. It’s, it’s number 3. We can go on’. Number 3 was the sort of standby. I said, ‘We can either’, to the captain, I said, ‘Look. We either wait here and I get an inverter to change it or we fly home on everything we’ve got with no spare’. So, after a bit of a discussion they said, ‘We’ll, we’ll, go home’. So we started up and flew home. Got, ‘cause we came from Finningley really. Course we landed at Waddington and of course, we had to there for customs clearance of all things. So we landed at Waddington and the wing commander was there to greet us, and my captain who was not the, not the first pilot, he was the navigator, ‘Oh’, he said, we could, he said ‘If you put a brake chute in, we could fly home couldn’t we?’ I said, ‘Look’, I said, ‘I’ll put you a brake chute in but’, I said, I said, ‘I’ll walk home’. I said, ‘That’s a bloody heap of rubbish this is’. A heap of rubbish. So anyway, the wing commander was there and so I said, ‘Well that’s it’. And, and that aeroplane at Waddington, took them a fortnight to get it serviced to fly it to Finningley. So that was, that was me. I came home after months in Bermuda and the wing commander said, ‘You’d better have a couple of days off’. But that was a bloody aeroplane. Bloody aeroplane. 909. XA909. It wasn’t mine, it was Fred Harrison’s. It wasn’t one I fetched, and then oh, after that, we went to, we went on a, to Butterworth. Went to Butterworth and then we, because this was when they shut my damned, did I tell you about that. I haven’t put that on there have I? No. I can’t remember, I’ve told that much. They shook my, they shook my aircraft [unclear], broken the bomb doors. I had to take 9, I had to take, the aircrew wanted to go, were minded to take an aircraft to Manila in the Philippines from Butterworth, and mine was u/s with the bomb doors, and the only one I could take was 909. The engineer said, ‘Do you mind taking 909?’ ‘Cause that was the one that was stuck in Bermuda, Bermuda with. I said, ‘I’ll take anything as long as its serviceable’, so, and that was the only, the only range I ever did where I had a serviceable aircraft from start to finish. I flew there no troubles. No troubles there and flew back and that was the only, only trip I ever did in a Vulcan where I didn’t have any problems.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command Archive I’d like to thank Warrant Officer Charles Bland at his home in Lincolnshire on the 17th of August 2015. Thank you for the recording.
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Interview with Charles Bland
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Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-17
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABlandC150817, PBlandC1501
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Bland joined the Royal Air Force in February 1942 and went to RAF Halton as an Aircraft Apprentice.
He tells of his training at Halton, and describes the different trades and his exams to become an Leading Aircraftsman 1st Class, where he was then transferred to a Repair and Inspection Unit (R&I) working on Spitfire engines.
Charles then went to India via the Suez Canal and then on to Ceylon to 121 Repair and Salvage Unit, looking after 2 squadrons of Beaufighters and 1 squadron of Spitfires, but he says that because he was an apprentice, he could turn his hand to anything.
He was posted to instruct at a Motor Transport Unit, and spent time learning about the maintenance of other equipment including diesel engines.
Charles was posted to 109 Maintenance Unit, repairing Merlin engines, however at this time the V Bombers were coming into service. He trained as a Crew Chief and after passing these exams he was assigned to the Avro Vulcan XA908, at RAF Waddington.
Charles related the stories of the work he did when the Vulcan had hydraulic failure at Goose Green, the bombing competition in Florida where the aircraft suffered broken bomb bay doors and a cracked bomb aimers window, and the trip home from Bermuda with no fuel in one tank and a broken bogie beam.
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:21:37 audio recording
Beaufighter
C-47
fitter airframe
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
Meteor
military discipline
military service conditions
RAF Boscombe Down
RAF Coningsby
RAF Finningley
RAF Halton
RAF Kirton in Lindsey
RAF Waddington
RAF Worksop
service vehicle
Spitfire
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/183/3632/PWoodC1601.1.jpg
e6b2e00e8424a1959078b6e0bbf67556
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/183/3632/AWoodC160325.2.mp3
46024566658ed36fd321770c6bf3a020
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wood, Colin
Description
An account of the resource
15 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Colin Wood (1922 - 2021, 1451225 Royal Air Force), his log book, service record and seven photographs including pictures of some of his crew. Colin Wood trained in Canada and flew operations as a navigator with 106 Squadron from RAF Metheringham. His crew were:
428289 - Andy A Anderson, pilot
1593692 - D Evans, flight engineer
1451225 - Colin Wood, navigator
1564707 - G H McElhone, bomb aimer
1873924 - P Thomas Tobin, wireless operator
1584474 - Vernon R Grogan, mid upper gunner
1595586 - R O Day, rear gunner.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Colin Wood and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-25
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Wood, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GR: Right. This is Gary Rushbrooke for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m with Warrant Officer Colin Wood, a navigator on 106 and 83 Squadrons and we’re at his home in Sheffield on Friday the 25th of March. Colin, I know we’re in Sheffield. Are you from Sheffield originally?
CW: Oh yes.
GR: Yeah. Born, born locally.
CW: Born and bred.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Brothers. Sisters.
CW: Yeah. Brother. He was in the air force. He was down as a pilot, to train as a pilot and then they were short of coppersmiths and they commandeered him to be a coppersmith. So, but he finished up on training as a pilot in South Africa. So he got something. By the time he’d done he’d more or less run out of time.
GR: Right. Yeah.
CW: Too late.
GR: Any other brothers or sisters or just that?
CW: No.
GR: And what did, what did your mum and dad do? Were they —
CW: They were, they worked in the steelworks. Well, not my mother [laughs]
GR: No. Yeah.
CW: And, yeah.
GR: So, yeah. So you went to school in Sheffield.
CW: Yes.
GR: And I think you were telling me earlier on before we switched the recorder on that when you decided to join the RAF or volunteered was it, was there five? Five members of your class.
CW: Yes. Yes. The local school. Sharrow Lane School. And we had the top boy in Sheffield. I should mention that.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And he became a pilot and unfortunately he was the only who was [pause] didn’t manage it.
GR: He didn’t get back. Did you decide, did you know all the, did you know each other?
CW: Oh yeah. Yeah.
GR: And had you all got together and said —
CW: No. No. Everybody was diff, everybody by themselves decided. Well, you was either the army or navy and I didn’t fancy. I used to play as a kid at being a wounded soldier. After the First World War.
GR: Right.
CW: And so I thought I don’t fancy that very much. I think if, if I happen to be lucky and a natural pilot I could take, I could take my turn as a natural pilot.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So I thought I’ll have a go at that. And that more or less decided that.
GR: Right. So what year would this be?
CW: Eh?
GR: When your class.
CW: When I, when I went to volunteer in the local Sheffield reception area it would be ’41.
GR: 19 yeah and —
CW: And then I went somewhere down south and met up again with some officers who quizzed me and all that. Then they gave me two shilling. Which was the king’s two shilling which in the First World War was one shilling.
GR: Was the king’s shilling. Yeah.
CW: And we got a rise to two shilling and, and then I was sent home then and I was [pause] they said they’d nowhere to train us. So that was it. I just had to wait ‘til, ‘til there was room to train us.
GR: Yeah. How long did you spend at home?
CW: I was, well probably six months while they found somewhere to train us.
GR: And what, what would you have been doing? Did you go back to school or —
CW: No. I went back to work.
GR: You went back, oh right. So we’ll backtrack. So when you said there’s five members of your class.
CW: Oh yes.
GR: They’d all left the class.
CW: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: It was just that we were all together and as it happened we all joined up separately.
GR: Yeah. So what work was you doing?
CW: Plumbing.
GR: Plumbing.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Oh so you weren’t in Sheffield’s steel industry like your dad.
CW: No. No.
GR: No.
CW: I didn’t fancy being inside like that. No.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Sooner be outside somewhere.
GR: Because what age would you have left school?
CW: Fourteen.
GR: Fourteen. And then gone into a plumbing apprenticeship or —
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Exactly.
GR: And then as war broke out would you have been eighteen to volunteer or — ?
CW: The call up age when I was eighteen was nineteen. So at nineteen I would have been called up anyway.
GR: Yes.
CW: So I was eighteen and I knew I could take my pick and and choice. So that’s why I volunteered. Well, other things. But I decided to. To join up. Yeah.
GR: So at eighteen you could volunteer.
CW: Yes.
GR: And if you’d have said, and if this is just something just to clarify actually for a lot of people. So at eighteen obviously the Royal Air Force and I think the Submarine Service were voluntary.
CW: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: So, at the age of eighteen you could have volunteered for any of them two. Plus —
CW: Yeah.
GR: The army.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So if you wanted to go into the army at eighteen you could have said, ‘I want to go,’ and if you hadn’t have volunteered at the age of eighteen when you got to nineteen, on your nineteenth birthday you would have been called up. Is that right?
CW: No. Because the air force at the time said you belong to us.
GR: Yeah.
CW: You can’t go in the Merchant Navy.
GR: No. What I mean is if you hadn’t have volunteered.
CW: Yeah.
GR: For the RAF.
CW: Oh, I’d have been —
GR: So if you’d have done nothing.
CW: Yeah. Yeah.
GR: At the age of nineteen.
CW: I’d have been called up.
GR: Conscription.
CW: Yeah.
GR: In World War Two.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And you would have been said, right.
CW: Yeah.
GR: You’re off to the army. You’re off to the navy. Or whatever.
CW: Exactly. Yeah.
GR: I’ve got it. Yeah. So, volunteered for the Royal Air Force.
CW: Yeah.
GR: But then you waited six months. Went back and did some work.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And then what happened? What was, what —?
CW: Well –
GR: When you were finally called up for training.
CW: Yes. I was sent to, with a railway warrant to Lord’s Cricket Ground where I think the others, everybody went there.
GR: That’s right.
CW: To London.
GR: Yes. Yeah.
CW: Yeah. And lived in a big posh house there.
GR: Very nice. Wouldn’t do that these days would we down there?
CW: No.
GR: And I think, was it like two weeks of square bashing and something or —
CW: We were there about a month.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And then I went to south coast. ITW.
GR: Yeah.
CW: I remember it now.
GR: Yeah. Training centre. And did you know at the time where you was going to be doing your training?
CW: No. No. No. I didn’t know what I was going to be. There were like four or five trades.
GR: Yeah.
CW: That, we were never in any way directed to one or the other. We all did the same training at ITW.
GR: Right. Yeah. Initial. Yeah. Initial training.
CW: Yeah.
GR: What, what did you want to be? Had you got — pilot?
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So after ITW did they then come to you and say —
CW: No. They estimated what kind of — I did fly a plane after I’d done ITW. I went to learn to fly a plane.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Which was a Tiger Moth. Which was the only way to travel really. It’s wonderful.
GR: I bet.
CW: And loop the loop and falling leaf and all that. It was lovely. And, you know at that age.
GR: Yeah.
CW: To just do that. And anyway after, they assessed us I suppose at that time. What I was like handling a plane and taking off and landing.
GR: Yeah.
CW: I suppose they put a mark down to what I was doing. How I was doing. And then I went back just [pause] I forget, I went to a holding unit in Manchester. A park there. Heaton Park.
GR: Heaton Park. Yeah.
CW: And I stayed there. Then I was sent to another place near Birmingham and playing at football and somebody broke my leg [laughs] So that put me in hospital for a while. And then, but then I got three weeks sick leave which was the usual and then, and then I still had to hang about until, until I was sent off to Canada. I went back to Heaton Park and from Heaton Park, Liverpool.
GR: Yeah.
CW: In the world’s worst boat. French ship called the Louis Pasteur, which pitched and tossed and never went flat.
GR: Oh dear.
CW: And everybody on board, including the captain I think, was sick.
GR: How did you feel about the fact that you would be doing your training in Canada?
CW: Well. We didn’t get to Canada because they’d got some, not a disease but some ailment in the camp we should have gone to so that, so the Americans in three or four days we got time arranged for us to go to one of their camps in Massachusetts. So we landed at New York and then disembarked from the Louis Pasteur, went across the river in a, in a ferry for some reason to get ready to go to north of, in America.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And somebody started singing there, “On Ilkley Moor bar t’at,” and everybody joined in. They were Welsh and Irish.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And everything. So I don’t know what Americans thought when they heard all the Yorkshire language being spoke. So then we went to near Massachusetts. Camp Myles Standish, who was a famous, was he an Indian fighter or something?
GR: Don’t know.
CW: Yeah.
GR: I don’t know.
CW: Yeah. And they called this camp after him.
GR: After him. Yeah.
CW: And so we spent three or four weeks there. And then we moved then onto the place we should have gone to in Canada. I can’t, I can’t remember where it was now.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And then I went out to Rivers. Canadian Number 1 Navigation School. Just about a hundred mile west of Winnipeg.
GR: Yeah. I’m just looking in Colin’s logbook and it’s number, yeah Number 1 Canadian Navigation School, Rivers, Manitoba. And I think your first flight there was on July the 8th 1943.
CW: Was it?
GR: Yeah. Duty — first navigator. Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So obviously you settled in Canada and from what I’ve spoke to other gentleman obviously training in Canada with no food shortages and —
CW: Exactly. Yeah.
GR: Was good.
CW: Yes. Good.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: How long did training last?
CW: Five months.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So —
GR: As, as, yeah navigation.
CW: I must say the last day was the best of all because some wise guy said while we’re going to be here five months. Every month payday, every payday we should all put money in a kitty and have a big booze up when it, when it’s all over and have a big meal.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Which we did.
GR: Well, I presume there was no shortages.
CW: No.
GR: No. No.
CW: No.
GR: So freshly qualified as a navigator when did you actually return to the UK?
CW: I’ll tell you when. It was, the middle day was the 28th of November across the, seven days across the Atlantic because it was my twenty first birthday [laughs]
GR: I see.
CW: And I was in this hammock.
GR: So you spent, spent your twenty first birthday.
CW: Yeah. In —
GR: On the North Atlantic
CW: Exactly. In the middle of the Atlantic. Hoping there were no submarines about.
GR: What ship were you on? Do you remember the ship coming back?
CW: Yeah. The Mauritania.
GR: Oh. The Mauritania.
CW: Yeah. Beautiful.
GR: Famous ship. Yes. Yeah.
CW: Yeah. Nobody sick there.
GR: No.
CW: Beautiful. Yeah.
GR: Because I think at one time that held a record for crossing the Atlantic. It was quite a fast ship wasn’t it?
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Big ship.
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah. So I was going to say. So back to England and I’m just looking in your logbook and around February 1944 you were in Scotland.
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah. Near Stranraer.
GR: Yeah.
CW: I forget what —
GR: Yeah.
CW: I don’t know what you called it now.
GR: Can’t pronounce it to be honest. West Freugh.
CW: West Freugh. Freugh.
GR: West Freugh.
CW: West Freugh.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So this was for further training.
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah.
CW: We were flying still on [pause] bloody hell I’ve forgotten was what plane it was.
GR: Ansons.
CW: Ansons. That’s right. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: You hadn’t crewed up by then had you?
CW: No.
GR: This was all.
CW: No. No.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: No. No.
GR: Just further training. And progressing into April you were then at 29 OTU.
CW: Yeah. I’m not sure where that was. Oh. Bitteswell.
GR: Bitteswell.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: And there were about four. Four different places. Why they didn’t do it there. We kept moving on to other places.
GR: Yes.
CW: But there we are.
GR: And with a regular crew by then or —
CW: No.
GR: No. You were still —
CW: No. No. We, we’d never seen anybody who wasn’t training as a navigator at that time.
GR: Right.
CW: And then eventually we were taken in to a big hangar. Which happened to everybody. And they said they were, I don’t remember the number now but same number of pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, rear gunners, wireless ops.
GR: And just told you to get on with it.
CW: And they said, ‘When you come out you’ll all be in a crew.’
GR: Tell me a bit about that then.
CW: Well, I don’t know. I finished up with an Australian pilot. A super, super guy.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Well they all were actually.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Aussies. I liked them.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And yes. And we picked up as I say a wireless op.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And rear gunner.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And bomb aimer.
GR: Bomb aimer. Mid-upper.
CW: He was a Scot.
GR: Yeah. Can you remember all the nationalities then? How many Australians were there? Just the pilot or —
CW: Just the pilot. Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah. Yes. He was a super bloke really.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And that was, was that Flying Officer Anderson?
CW: Well, he was sergeant. A flight sergeant then.
GR: Flight sergeant then.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yes. So crewed up.
CW: Yeah.
GR: What happened next?
CW: And then we went training. Still training.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Still training. Can’t remember where we went to really.
GR: Would it have been Heavy Conversion Unit?
CW: Yeah.
GR: To convert on to the four-engine bombers. Syerston.
CW: No. I think we went somewhere before that.
GR: Yeah.
CW: That was to go on to Stirlings.
GR: Winthorpe.
CW: Winthorpe was still training on —
GR: Yeah.
CW: Ansons I think.
GR: Yeah. Just checking the logbook.
CW: Oh Halifax.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Halifaxes.
GR: Stirlings.
CW: Oh. Was it?
GR: Yeah.
CW: But first was Halifaxes.
GR: Right.
CW: Which were still twin-engine for the pilot so he didn’t need the other two crew members.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: The flight engineer. He didn’t really need him because he was quite used to two engines anyway.
GR: Yeah.
CW: But when he stepped up to the next.
GR: That.
CW: Four engine.
GR: Yeah.
CW: He needed help to look after feeding in of petrol.
GR: And obviously that’s what Winthorpe would have been.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Because you were on Stirlings by then.
CW: Yes. That’s right. Yeah.
GR: And Flight Sergeant Anderson was a pilot officer by then.
CW: Yes. Yeah. He stepped up. Yeah. Deserved it. Yeah.
GR: And then obviously after, yeah Heavy Conversion Unit, you did I think it’s about a week at 5 LFS at Syerston.
CW: Oh.
GR: Just a week there. On Lancasters.
CW: Oh yeah.
GR: At Number 5 Lancaster Finishing School.
CW: That’s right.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: When did you find out which operational base you would go to? How did that come about?
CW: They just said, ‘You’re going to 106 at Metheringham.’
GR: Yeah. So —
CW: And we went and there were two other crews landed at about the same day I think.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And we were all put in the same Nissen hut.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And we wondered, I wondered how we were all going to go on. If we were going to be as lucky as them or what. And then both, all three pilots made a flight with an experienced crew.
GR: Yes.
CW: And one of them, one of the other two pilots did not come back. So then we expected a new pilot to arrive to take over this old crew but they didn’t. They just took them and the disappeared. Took them off the station altogether.
GR: Right.
CW: Which, it was a bit surprising but I suppose that’s how they did it.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And then we thought well who’d be first because our pilot was Albert Andrew Anderson and duly first on anything but he wasn’t.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And this other crew went and they never came back.
GR: So they went on the first operation.
CW: Yes.
GR: And didn’t come back.
CW: Yeah. The pilot came back from his original flight.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And he took his own crew and then we never heard again.
GR: So, of the three crews that landed.
CW: Yeah before a month was out we were —
GR: Just you.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Just you. Ok. And I am looking at your logbook again. You, you did your first training flight at Metheringham on the 12th of September and within two weeks you were flying on your first operation.
CW: Well, I’ve not really looked into that.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. I’m just looking at the logbook again.
CW: Oh. Ok.
GR: 12th of September.
CW: Yeah.
GR: You’d arrived at Metheringham. Well, less than two weeks. The 23rd of September.
CW: Yeah.
GR: You were off to the Dortmund Ems Canal.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So what was the first operation like if you don’t mind me asking? You know, you’d done your training.
CW: Yes. Well we knew what we were in for because we’d experienced what had happened to others.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So we just hoped and prayed. Yeah.
GR: Because as a navigator did you go to a pre-op meeting?
CW: No.
GR: You didn’t have to plan the route out or anything like that?
CW: No.
GR: No.
CW: No.
GR: Right.
CW: No. I think everyone was, it’s wherever in Bomber Command I think the same happened. A briefing.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And a big screen across the, a big atlas or a map.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Or a chart probably. And a red line zigzagging across. Zigzagged because they didn’t want Germans to dead reckon ahead on our first track and say oh they must be going in that direction.
GR: Sounds like it. Yeah.
CW: So we dodged.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Dodged different. It made a bit more hard work.
GR: Yeah.
CW: But not much.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And so that’s how we set off on each flight.
GR: Yeah. And what was the first one like? You said, yeah you just prayed and hoped.
CW: Well.
GR: And did it go off alright at the Dortmund Ems because obviously the Dortmund ems canal over the years was a well-known target.
CW: Well I went five times in all. So, yeah but but I don’t think we ever did any damage to be honest. It was such a massive.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Thing. And I think 617 Squadron eventually dropped one of theirs.
GR: Big Tallboy.
CW: Yes
GR: Grand Slam
CW: Yeah.
GR: Bombs.
CW: Down. Just where it wanted to be. Right alongside it.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Which uprooted everything. Which was a big route for everything made in the Ruhr to get to the north coast.
GR: Yeah.
CW: To go on this canal.
GR: On the canal. Yeah.
CW: So if we could knock it out then they would be sending things by road.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And rail. Which took longer and cost more.
GR: I think Bomber Command first started bombing the Dortmund Ems Canal in 1940.
CW: Yeah. Well, there wasn’t, that meant they weren’t able to damage.
GR: No.
CW: That concrete was such that, you know, one bomb.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Just wouldn’t matter.
GR: And then you’d done within four days you’d done two more ops to Karlsruhe and Kaiserslautern.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And then —
CW: Yeah.
GR: Running into October 1944 I notice you went to the submarine pens at Bergen.
CW: Yeah. In Norway. Yes.
GR: Yeah.
CW: To try and help the navy really.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Damage the submarines if possible.
GR: Yeah. And I think again that was another one that 617 with their big bombs —
CW: Yeah.
GR: Went to —
CW: Were able to do.
GR: After you. Yeah. So how did the operations go? Oh yeah. I’m just looking again. Dortmund Ems. Dortmund Ems.
CW: Yeah. Well, actually apart from being there it was quite a good one for, for us because it was a short one.
GR: Yeah.
CW: It was just, only just the other side of Holland.
GR: Yes.
CW: And so you weren’t shattered or anything.
GR: Yeah.
CW: By a long distance or anything.
GR: Yeah. Yes. Because I’m looking again in the logbook and the Dortmund Ems Canal Roundtrip was four hours fifteen minutes.
CW: Yeah. That’s pretty good.
GR: Unlike on the 22nd of November you went to Trondheim and you were in the air eleven hours twenty five minutes.
CW: Yeah. Trondheim. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. So —
CW: Well that’s, on saying that well I think that I told you that the Met men got the wind velocity wrong. Totally wrong. It turned out to be, on my first check after ten minutes when you take a radar fix you could work out a wind velocity which to me, it was to me a hundred mile an hour and I think they had forecast twenty or twenty five or something like that. And we were a bit, a little bit worried and we then realised our wireless operator got a message saying the time to be there had been brought forward because they’d heard, someone must have phoned, called them up. Breaking radio silence really which I’d never heard of and to tell them that we were going to be there maybe an hour too soon. With the wind velocity being so high and we were not accounting for it. We were thinking we were going to be in twenty mile an hour.
GR: And you were in —
CW: And we were in a hundred so, so they brought it forward so it didn’t make any difference of getting there.
GR: So in theory, I don’t know, the cruising speed of a Lancaster.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Normally two hundred miles an hour.
CW: I think somebody went wrong totally because the main bomb aimer eventually you couldn’t mark the target. The Germans set up smoke flares.
GR: Yes.
CW: And, and I think that when they tried to mark the target the wind was so much that these were carried away and they were never left long enough on the ground to be able to say come in and bomb.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So they said, ‘Sorry,’ but he said, ‘Sorry boys, just return to base. Return to base.’
GR: Right.
CW: So on the way back we, we were travelling at eighty mile an hour instead of our usual one eighty because of the head wind.
GR: Yeah. So you got, you got to the target quickly but it took a long time to get back home.
CW: Exactly. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. So —
CW: Yeah. But we went, we were then because I think petrol was going very low and we were detailed to go to Lossiemouth.
GR: Right. Diverted on the way back.
CW: Yes.
GR: Yeah. Yeah. I’m just checking again. Yeah. So moving on into early, early 1945 you were called up for Pathfinder duty.
CW: Yeah.
GR: How did that come about if you don’t mind asking?
CW: I think we got lucky.
GR: You got lucky. Taken off operations.
CW: No. I mean, no, I mean we got lucky by getting to the targets on time which was vital really.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So to start with the bomber when dropping bombs we got I think a three or four minute allowance but Pathfinders was one minute.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So you’d sort of got to work a bit harder to get there.
GR: Yeah.
CW: On time.
GR: So, I know they did a bit of extra training didn’t they?
CW: Yes.
GR: Which you had. Yeah.
CW: We went to [pause] I forget.
GR: Yeah. And it doesn’t make a note. Oh Coningsby. 83 Squadron, Pathfinder Force, Coningsby.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. So a couple of months and then you were back on operations and it looks as though you went to Leipzig on your first Pathfinder trip.
CW: Oh.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So did you find the two squadrons different or, I mean I presume you’ve still got the same crew.
CW: Oh yeah.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: Same crew. Yeah.
GR: So just flying the same plane.
CW: Yeah.
GR: But from a different base.
CW: Yeah. Just —
GR: Yeah.
CW: Different base. Well, we linked with 97 Squadron. So we were like one squadron really I think.
GR: Yeah.
CW: We both went into the briefing. Both squadrons. And however many, however many planes that were sent.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So we were like one big squadron but but no we weren’t.
GR: Yeah.
CW: We were two separate squadrons but we worked as one.
GR: As a — yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Any extra pressure being the Pathfinder navigator?
CW: No. I just did —
GR: Because the Pathfinders, I presume the Pathfinders went in first to mark.
CW: Yeah.
GR: The target.
CW: No.
GR: Then bomb.
CW: We dropped flares —
GR: Yeah.
CW: That hung in the sky whilst Mosquitoes guys who didn’t have as much radar didn’t, I don’t think they had any radar so they weren’t sure to get there because they didn’t have room for radar I think. And so if they saw our flares going down they could be, they could easily get within like ten mile of the target. So they’d soon see the flares and they could be on the job straight away and marking out for the main force coming probably nine minutes later.
GR: Yeah. That’s good. And then that’s going towards the end of the war. Where were you? Where were you when the war finished?
CW: Still at Coningsby.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: And I think you’d flown your last operation on the, or your last bombing operation on the 18th of April.
CW: Was it?
GR: Yeah.
CW: Oh.
GR: Yeah. So and then in May you did a couple of prisoner of war pickups. Operation Exodus.
CW: Yes. Yeah. We were glad to be able to do that.
GR: Yeah. A lot of crews have said that.
CW: It was the first time they said you can’t take your parachutes with you. Not that we were bothered about that.
GR: Yeah.
CW: But no parachutes for them. Prisoners of war just released. Probably I think there were sixteen came in and sat just down the fuselage. Anywhere they could really.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: And then the pilot would ask them up and we were like over the sea, or the North Sea or whatever and just had a look.
GR: Yeah.
CW: What it was like. And then they would just sit down there. Back in the fuselage.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And we’d land them at some place.
GR: Dunsford.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Dunsford. Yeah.
CW: And —
GR: My father in law who’d been a prisoner of war for five years. He flew back on a Lancaster.
CW: Oh.
GR: It could have been you.
CW: It well could have been. Aye. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. He’d been captured at Dunkirk. And flew back.
CW: Oh blimey. That was early enough wasn’t it?
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
CW: To be captured.
GR: So, and then the last entry in the logbook in May which is absolutely fantastic. 31st of May. A tour of German cities.
CW: Yeah. We took a guy with a camera.
GR: Right.
CW: And he took photographs and he gave us some. One or two each.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And they were [pause] oh it was just shocking to look down really and thought we’d done all that.
GR: Yes. Because obviously I’m looking and it was obviously in daylight. Yeah.
CW: Yeah.
GR: So no. Proof of, proof of what Bomber Command did and the success of Bomber Command.
CW: Yes.
GR: And so —
CW: Yeah.
GR: So, how else did, how long did you stay in the RAF for Colin?
CW: I think it were about five years in all.
GR: Oh yeah. So you weren’t —
CW: I didn’t stay on. No.
GR: Well, most of them, most people would have come out 1946 but if you stayed a bit longer. I’m looking. So [pause] so demobbed. Back home to Sheffield.
CW: That’s right.
GR: And what did you do with the rest of your life?
CW: Well, I can, I can put it on camera now that one of the flights in there.
GR: Yeah.
CW: Was a cross country flight and my wife and I had got married. I was only twenty one and we got married and she came to Coningsby. She went to the cobblers and he put her up to sleep in his house and his shop, and then one day I said, ‘Well I shan’t be seeing you tonight because we’ve got this flight on.’ And she said, ‘Well, why can’t I come? [laughs] I said, ‘Not really.’ But anyway, she did. So we smuggled.
GR: You smuggled your wife on to a Lancaster.
CW: Yeah. And then she, and then we took off. Yeah. And then she said, Andy, said to her, the pilot said when we were coming back when the exercise was over kind of, he said, ‘What, was it, what did you think? Was it —’ She said, ‘Well it wasn’t very exciting was it?’ So he said to the gunner, he said, ‘Give me a corkscrew.’ Which he did. And she just went aaaahhh. So I switched the microphone on and they all heard her.
GR: Yeah.
CW: And then when we came back and we got in the van to come back and there was one, well what can I say? A typical, ‘Hello there, how are you and all that darling,’ and he saw her get in the van, and he said ‘Oh. And where have you come from?’ So she said, ‘Oh I’ve been flying.’ He said, ‘Oh jolly good show. Jolly good show.’ He really thought, yeah.
GR: Yeah.
CW: So —
GR: So you were demobbed from the RAF. You and your wife back to Sheffield.
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. Did you go back to plumbing or —
CW: Yeah.
GR: Yeah. And that was the end of the wartime experiences.
CW: Yeah. That’s the war. Yeah.
GR: Ok. Thank you. Thank you Colin.
CW: Ok.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Colin Wood
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:35:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWoodC160325
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-25
Description
An account of the resource
Colin Wood grew up in Sheffield and worked as a plumber until he volunteered for the RAF. He trained in Canada and flew operations as a navigator with 106 Squadron from RAF Metheringham. On arrival at the station his pilot and three others made their flight with an experienced crew but only the pilot returned. Colin and his crew were later posted to 83 Squadron Pathfinders.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943-07-08
1944-02
1945
106 Squadron
83 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
navigator
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Bitteswell
RAF Coningsby
RAF Metheringham
RAF Syerston
RAF West Freugh
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/215/3355/ABrownE160314.1.mp3
4fd76aed8c310e6b2fefa29f02007102
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Brown, Eric and Phyllis
Eric and Phyllis Brown
Eric Brown
Phyllis Brown
E Brown
P Brown
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Eric Brown (1591325 Royal Air Force) and his wife Phyllis.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Brown, E-P
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre the interviewer is Anna Hoyles the interviewee is Eric Brown the interview is taking place in Mr. Brown’s home in Holton-le-Clay on 14th March 2016.
EB: I originally started er learning before I er
AH: Can you speak up a bit more?
EB: Yes well I could I suppose yes, I used to work with this accountant and er war was coming obviously and so by this time I was about sixteen seventeen rather and decided that I would join up with the rest and so I went off volunteered to er go I wanted to go with aircraft and I was accepted to go and I suppose I was about two years or a little bit less than that at I had to choose what I wanted to do and er being that bit older of course I wanted to be into something and eventually I got into that and er you then had five choices with regard the aircraft and what you were going to do and er so I became the man who sat at the [laughs] [unclear] and er I was responsible for all the feed for drinking for no drinking feeling [unclear] and checking all when you had every so many hours you had so many checks on that and er you were responsible for the seven of us that’s er what you tell you what we were going to do now everything was all was different er and er we used to go what we were given to do er and that’s about about hundred in that altogether and er we got close to Germany as it was then and of course that is when the danger came out and er you sometimes I’ve known we’ve had gone off home leaving about seven or eight men all shot down and there were an awful lot shot down the Germans used to you know pick you up and that was it and er you got there but what we could do we could get a bit lower and be be hoping somebody would come along and hit it and er we’d be all right by night and so I did an awful lot of flights there for for [unclear] haven’t got any yes these it’s what the award was eventually we were afforded one of those but er it was an awful thing though our own men your own men friends those you lived with getting shot down, its funny now I don’t know whether you read in the paper in Lincoln they are building a big thing er for all the men who didn’t come home and funnily that one night er I was talking to him before it was his turn to go off and er that was it we didn’t see any more of him and er we had an awful lot though and er but you you had a job you did the job and er that’s why we had the chap with the guns [unclear] two guns we had two men who were older than us I mean I was about thirty thirty odd then and they decided they wanted to go on this particular way and er it was nice because you took different people with you at night but er so we we just had me it was my job to look after the [unclear] in front we had four we haven’t got four there have we?
AH: No
EB: See but er yes four knives off you went er petrol just right and we never got too much or little of anything [laughs] you always had something which was [unclear] but the worst part as I’m was concerned was as you came to the prison to the arrived there er and if your guns were fire guns were fired and Germans were sent to what we could send to us over there and you had to make your way back home and hope are we going to be lucky, I do remember one night they had the Germans used to have these special things that came out when it got dark and er we decided one night we got stuck down there and we had to get back up but we couldn’t for a while but er you had to look after yourself once you got to France France you were all right that was the best bit but we did lose an awful lot I mean it was nothing to lose nothing to miss rather other than to er perhaps ten or eleven one night and er so you were you used to have your food when you got back home if there was any left or if you didn’t felt like eating you ate it but er I mean it there was something about it all the time you was were as one you know you didn’t pick on anybody or get anybody all wanted friends all doing the same job on er we went from up North to Norway er down to er France and that’s how it was at night keep going and er fires fires from the Germans they sent hell of a lot and er you just hoping you hoping do what we can and er once you got on that situation then you had to look after it and hopefully get back again. How you doing?
AH: Good. What planes were you in?
EB: What?
AH: What planes?
EB: Er I’ll show you it, we got one?
PB: That’s the Lancaster
EB: The Lancaster it’s the one that everybody is talking about now.
AH: Yes
EB: That’s that’s the one you had that that’s it there
AH: Yes
EB: That was at Lincoln.
AH: Oh yes, and what were they like to fly in?
EB: What were they like?
PB: Noisy.
EB: Very good very good wonderful aircraft best of
PB: Noisy [?]
EB: Yes excellent, the most Stirling’s they were they were dangerous [laughs] we didn’t get on very well on them but [unclear] you managed just about some nights if we got hit but er you got there all right you had a meal when you got home and then you ready for the next day again start again that’s how it went six or seven nights you would be on things like that doing that.
AH: How did you feel when you were doing it?
EB: Well it was all number one you know it was look after number one, I being the the pilot was there I was the second my responsibility that we had four engines to go with and four to get home with and er.
PB: That’s him in his flying gear have you seen it?
AH: Very nice.
EB: So we had a chap sat at the end of the aircraft he was the gunner we had a man mate half way up this thing another friend another gunner and er you had two men who that’s the hold but they were from Australia and er their job was to sit in get covered up and when you got to Germany and stop all the things that we get coming at us so then we got to me I was responsible for four engines and er the pilot was very good er er but er I went going sidelines to that some years after the war I joined the Police force and I was walking home one night and er a young somebody an ex friend stopped me and he said ‘oh you know Chick Arnott don’t you?’ I said ‘yeah’ ‘oh’ he said ‘he’s got a factory in Germany’ not Germany oh where he lived.
PB: Australia, Australia.
EB: Mmm and er and I got a letter from him and two or three years after I got another letter and er I then thought of going over to to Australia but er I didn’t I kept in the air force and er got home one night he came with this girl a friend of his wife er had come back over to Australia and er she came to tell us that he had been killed he er he used to drive a car I know he was a bit mad when he was driving cars he did have one of his own er and er that was his end yes weird thing he did all that and er [unclear] and er he got killed.
AH: What was he called do you remember?
EB: Now then now Arnott yes have we got anything of him?
PB: Arnott yes what did they call him?
EB: Chick, Chick.
PB: Yes Chick Arnott.
EB: Chick Arnott his friend he was, but we were fourteen not fourteen we were lads really er five of us were lads and the balance were fifty they being the Australians they were desperate to get there mind you and er that’s what happened to him [takes a puff of something] certainly when you look back its.
PB: Have a little drink.
EB: Me throats not very good.
PB: Have a little drink.
EB: That was me a willing worker [laughs] with [unclear] I don’t know why they did that because
PB: Have a drink.
EB: You know I was doing that on aircraft all the time.
AH: So you were demobbed in 47?
EB: Would be about then yes.
PB: Was it 47 you were demobbed in yeah?
EB: Yes I joined the Police force.
PB: Cos’ we were married in 47.
EB: Yes.
AH: Were you part of Operation Manna?
EB: In what way?
AH: Did you fly to Holland?
EB: Er no I don’t think so.
AH: You flew to Norway?
EB: Yes there one night er didn’t do that much but I did definitely a trip there it wasI remember now because we didn’t hit what we wanted to hit ‘cos you couldn’t see where you were actually going to and er this clever dick he decided that he couldn’t see anything but he’d find something ‘cos he came down to the ships and when he got there he got shot down.
PB: Your voice clear your throat just take a bit.
EB: That er that was the end of that one. It was always nice to see a German[laughs] but er.
AH: Were you in the same squadron all the time?
EB: Yes yes once we got that squadron that was it that we stayed but of course then the Australians went home and er we that was me when I got home that was it, this thing says here assesses you how good you could be ‘I am a keen and willing willing circa[?] a keen and willing circa[?] with intelligent appre apprehension of technical matters’ [laughs].
AH: Is that true?
EB: Yes it was it had to be I had to be but er my [unclear] to keep four girls not four four types of tanks of water of petrol I did funnily come across one night and er I don’t know how it happened but we got ourselves caught out as when people were coming in but er for some reason we got out of it we had one or two sticks but er that’s life in’t it.
AH: Was it frightening?
EB: No in a way because you were too busy too busy you didn’t know who was who what was coming at you but er I never knew anyone didn’t know anybody who [unclear] that got about it as I say we had that much to do compared to the work we did we got home after that but the [unclear] over France we started losing petrol but we did manage to get home so and er when there’s a thousand aircraft a night all coming home to have something to eat and er it was there the skies were it was just there and er once you left where you were starting from that was it you didn’t see anybody until you got to where you when actually you got to the target then it was hell let loose it was all these red things all these things going out and er you just hoped they’d miss you as soon as you can get lower the better. Did I tell you that’s my Police medal you found this here, that’s a foreigner I don’t know who that is I put Norway for that but I don’t know why?
AH: No it’s the EU? Paris.
EB: Is it.
AH: Where were you based?
EB: ER Coningsby did you know Coningsby? Lovely aircraft lovely place to be at it very good there wasn’t far to carry the goods anyway er get over the water get yourself hidden away and er we thought Lincoln was a shocking place to be all aeroplanes [laughs] didn’t have many people up north doing things like that but er where we were based generally it was the place where it all happened really did I don’t know, you didn’t didn’t have old men none at all but I stopped from that after the war and er became a policeman and er that place we went there for.
PB: That which is Chick Arnott on here look?
EB: What he’s the boss.
PB: That’s Chick
EB: That’s Chick
PB: That was the one that got killed in the accident and that’s Eric again this end you see.
EB: He was very he used to stutter a lot I think his father was something to do with car money rather er.
AH: What was he called?
EB: I can’t I’ve got five damn things all written down here look that’s it that’s Ken,
PB: Ken navigator, that’s Dave
EB: That’s Dave they were all over thirty, er that was me, Chuck
PB: Chuck, Chick.
EB: And that was the other Australian he er I think he used to do [unclear] at night earn his money that way but er he used to like his money and he used to like his water water as well.
AH: Did you always fly with the same crew?
EB: Yes, yeah I think I only knew of one and that’s I did work with somebody work with somebody else because there was no reason for not using it we were there together, yes I written there the Pathfinder Badge.
AH: Were you a Pathfinder?
EB: Yeah, yes that’s when it all started again really but er that’s what we used to do keep it low get in deep problems and then er come back home.
AH: Were you always a Pathfinder?
EB: Yeah, yeah.
AH: What were you doing in 47?
EB: Er
AH: When you were in 57 Squadron?
EB: No we didn’t do a 57 I don’t think.
AH: Is there anything in?
PB: 47 look here you’ve got something down here for 47.
AH: Oh your log book.
EB: 447 in’t it [pause]. That’s after the war that.
PB: No that’s 43 Eric.
EB: Mmm training some people [coughs] you didn’t talk much when you were flying the two gunners were too occupied doing what they were doing and er the same thing went for us really, er four things the guns, the petrol so that was my job the pilot was looking where he was going and it just left the two men who when we got there they started and er did what we could.
AH: Did it take a long time to train?
EB: What direction?
AH: Before you before you took part.
EB: How that happened I remember that well I joined this thing as it was this thing at the time and I think I was sent off to a place north of er before you got to Scotland anyway and er I got what we had as kids to me I what we had as a kid so I got a week in this place er I had to stop there as I was sweating or something and er I nearly lost my place and er as a boring when you were training people you couldn’t there was an awful lot involved typical of what they did they used to pick people out at night er for you for going out there to watch to guard it really this was in Wales where we’d been trained and so you used to be given you gun and off you went and you sat on that thing for about three hours and all you could have after that was a break you were six weeks before six hours six hours before you could get back and shut your eyes [laughs] so those who didn’t do that we sat up peeling a potato every night same thing same potato and er we were training nearly a year and er.
AH: What did you do before the war?
EB: Accountant.
PB: You were in the office weren’t you.
EB: Yeah, because it was war then wasn’t it they were [unclear]
AH: Did you have family in Grimsby when it was bombed?
EB: You what love?
PB: Yeah.
EB: Yeah.
PB: Yes your mum and dad lived in Grimsby.
EB: Er yes ‘cos my father was a policeman er one sister works in the
PB: Joyce went in the army.
EB: She joined the army, the next one up
PB: Gladys
EB: She worked on er
PB: Ammunitions munitions
EB: And the eldest I don’t know what happened to her
PB: She still
EB: Oh she had a baby didn’t she?
PB: Yes that’s right yes she got married
EB: Marilyn yes that’s right that we had there [going through papers]
PB: It will be here somewhere look when you went on these here trips then where you bombed
EB: All these look you see.
PB: You dropped bombs
EB: [unclear]
AH: Hamburg?
EB: Yep
PB: Here you are look told you in 1945 45 it’s all the trips that you went on.
EB: Yeah Karlsburg, Dortmund.
PB: That’s a German isn’t it.
EB: Yes [unclear] quite a few quite a few trips.
AH: Do you remember any of them in particularly?
EB: No I don’t think I do really there’s all them look.
AH: Karlsruhe?
EB: Wartsburg [unclear] send things
AH: Was that a big raid Wartsburg?
EB: Yeah twenty storage tanks destroyed Tansburg [?] er
PB: What’s this one here look here where you drop flares
EB: Where you drop those flares so you can see what you are doing.
PB: Oh you dropped flares there you did yes.
EB: I think we’ve told you all
AH: Is this from a log book?
PB: Yes but he had but he’s given his grandson it cos it was all down there you see all of his trips want ityou gave Matthew it didn’t you.
EB: Yes well it’s no good to me er it’s worth a bit £2 a time it was a lot of money in those days.
AH: Was your father in the First World War?
PB: Yes he was in the army.
EB: Yes he was.
PB: In the army.
EB: Yeah I now but what about it there’s something about it er I’ve got a photograph of sometime.
PB: Was in the Police Army was in the Police when he was in the Army?
EB: No I don’t think he was.
PB: No
EB: No one time if a man was a coward or wouldn’t fly wasn’t going they had to shoot him.
PB: They did what?
EB: They had to shoot the chap who wouldn’t go they shoot them in France yes.
AH: What was your father called?
PB: William.
EB: William yes, what did they call my mother?
PB: Eh?
EB: What did they call my mother?
PB: Lillian Lily
EB: Lily that’s it yeah aye there were five of us ‘cos my father’s my er grandfather he had the bakehouse but he didn’t go into it because he had five of us to look after and that was what he used to do.
PB: Your mum.
AH: So the baker was your mother’s father?
EB: Yes and how they got together was the fact that my father used to look out for her when he was on the beat and he could see there was my mother cleaning up that’s how they got married grandfather [unclear] but yes he did.
AH: What was your grandfather called?
EB: That’s one thing
PB: Basil, called him Basil?
EB: Yes that’s right called him Basil, it was a lovely house he had and er once a year when we were kids and grandfather had a nice car and er we used to take probably my father did it take us down to my grandfather’s house and off we used to go for a week [laughs] and that was it.
AH: Where was his house?
PB: In the country where wasn it?
EB: Do you know Grimsby at all?
AH: A little bit.
EB: ‘Cos it’s it you were coming out as going to Louth
PB: Grasby, Grasby?
EB: No the other way
PB: Some pond.
EB: Oh no we went there last week last when that had that to do with something oh your eye the eye thing a place they used to do eyes.
PB: Oh yes
EB: And that was it Scartho.
PB: Yes in the bungalow but then your other one where they did the pond that old pond where you used to go visit them.
EB: Yes Kild at er [?], what was it now there we had something there but I never take it or tell it Kild [?]
PB: I can’t remember
EB: and er that was the place they lived in was very nice they lived ad er you could have one in my father my sister doing my mother doing all the work.
AH: And how did you meet?
PB: How did we meet? Well you see when he was at Coningsby at night the buses used to go into Boston and I lived in Boston at the time and we used to go to the dance hall called the Gliderdrome and these bus loads of airmen used to come to this and I met him there you see.
AH: When was that?
PB: That was in 1945 it would be wouldn’t it when you was in the air force?
EB: Yes It was before then.
PB: Was it before then?
EB: Yes yes.
PB: He used to come from Coningsby on the bus didn’t you?
EB: Yes.
PB: To the Gliderdrome
EB: Mmm
PB: Then we used to have a dance then you used to go off on the bus didn’t you?
EB: Yes.
PB: Then I used to go home walk home well with my sisters ‘cos it was dark then there wasn’t no lights in the streets.
EB: But by that time we’d stopped bombing we weren’t doing bombing.
PB: Oh no.
EB: So that’s how it was.
AH: What did you do?
PB: What did I do?
AH: Yes
PB: Well you see I left school when I was fourteen then and then I worked in a little shop where I used to be get the breakfast ready and the farmers used to come in and it was at the end of at Boston at the cattle market want it where the farmers used to come and they used to come for the breakfast and some people used to stop overnight and then er I wasn’t there very long though and this baker used to come in and he said ‘I could find you a job’ and it was where I lived near where I lived so of course I went there but it was from six o’clock in the morning till six at night I used to go in a morning first off to get the bread done in the tins then they used to bake it and whilst it was baking I used to go home for my breakfast then I went back and then the bread was more or less ready used to get it out fill the van go on a bread round and then er come back again to the shop then we used to go for our dinner I were always late and then in the afternoon we used to make cakes and pastries yes it was hard hard work but er you know I well I don’t think I even got paid much for it it was only five shillings a week I used to remember buying a bar of Cadburys chocolate for a treat out of my five shillings [laughs] so it could only have been sixpence perhaps or two and half pence then wouldn’t it then [laughs] oh dear then I did that then I left and went to the cleaners didn’t I.
EB: Mmm.
PB: And then I got married while I was there didn’t I?
EB: Yes.
PB: And you what did you do then?
EB: Still flying.
PB: When you came out of the air force.
EB: Still flying.
PB: Yes you were still flying yes but then when we got married you wasn’t.
EB: I got married.
PB: You got a job at Leicester didn’t you?
EB: That’s right but it wasn’t very long.
PB: No it wasn’t very long no.
EB: Yes that’s right it was with the er thinking of [unclear].
PB: ‘Cos Gladys lived there at the time at Leicester didn’t she?
EB: Yes that’s right she did yes, I had a job there anyway that was.
PB: It was an office job want it duck?
EB: Yes it was yes well they were all I mean there was me eighteen nineteen twenty the rest of them were fifty they’d all not gone you see yes.
PB: And then you came out that job at Leicester and you applied for the to get on the Borough Police at Boston ‘cos I lived with me mum we lived with me mum then didn’t we after we got married you got on the Police Force at Boston and you wasn’t we wasn’t there long and you put in to go to Grimsby didn’t you?
EB: Yeah.
PB: And then it was the chief constable there and he said ‘come on Eric come that afternoon I’ve got you a football shirt ready you playing football that night’ weren’t you.
EB: The good old days.
AH: What was it like to leave the RAF?
EB: I was sorry to leave it but at the same time it was different you know I had a job to get involved in that whereas you could do some something totally different but you had those sort of people who did that but to me I wanted to be off er you were [?] within two days you would be off you quoted this number and off you went and that was it.
PB: What while you was in the forces?
EB: Mmm.
PB: Yeah well it was a routine want it you was in.
EB: Oh yeah yeah they gradually took everybody out that was it.
PB: Pardon
EB: They gradually took everybody out.
PB: Mmm.
AH: And you had children?
PB: Pardon.
AH: And you had children?
PB: We do have yes two daughters yes one’s sixty six now and the other one is sixty. [Laughs]. Mmm
EB: Yes.
PB: Well we shared a house didn’t we while you were in the police force.
EB: Well it was a police house wasn’t it.
PB: No at first we lived with Joyce we shared a house didn’t we we shared a house we had half of it we had the back half of the house we shared a council house they did in those days you see because I was having my our first daughter and Joyce she’d got one little boy she was having her second child so of course she went in the home and the day she came out I went in in January and then of course I didn’t have the baby until March did I, mmm but then we ‘cos you used to come yes you used to come and see me.
EB: Yes
PB: ‘Cos you see it was past the home want it where you lived Nunsthorpe and from there we got the police house in Winchcombe Avenue didn’t we?
EB: Yes.
PB: It was a new one it was a lovely house wasn’t it?
EB: Oh yeah yeah.
PB: But you used to go to work on your bike from there didn’t you?
EB: Yeah yeah [unclear] that’s one end of the thing used to have to go there ready for playing ready for when they were doing it all you started something there and you had to work your way right across there [laughs] and then when it was home that’s when you got out again they had these little places iron boxes and er you used to take your packed lunch with you and er do that.
PB: What those the police boxes you used to go to?
EB: Yes yes mmm.
AH: And was this where was this?
PB: This in this was was in Grimsby wasn’t it?
EB: Yep as it was then whether it’s
PB: It was Grimsby yeah
EB: I don’t know.
PB: Well was it Bradley Cross Roads?
EB: Yeah no it was whether it’s there still it might have something going for it I don’t know.
AH: What was it like being a policeman in Grimsby?
EB: It was funny because with it being a fishing town it was all fishermen there was an awful lot at night to get them on the docks get home or not be all drunk up and er and it was no good at all but er it carried on for quite a while and er we er one or two of us for some reason managed to get ourselves one step up and er from there on of course I went through finished up being a chief inspector I was quite but the boss there in where was Grimsby he was he used to go out he had this car this posh car and he’d go out everynight looking for police looking for policemen [laughs] er he was very unpopular his wife was working in a pub and he finished up later and er I never knew what happened to him but he didn’t do any work that was a fact.
AH: And how did you feel about the way Bomber Command were treated after the war?
EB: Well it er I mean it was terrible in some places I mean we’d got nearly nine hundred policemen to be shot down ‘cos they were and it was terrible but er again you had to look after yourself and er you had a job to do you had to go and you had to get back and the funny thing was though you didn’t see any aeroplanes they were about but you didn’t see them and er that was how it was mmm do you want to be a policewoman then?
PB: A bit different now to what it was when you was on the force in’t it now don’t think you would have coped with it as it is now well you would.
EB: I was an inspector want I.
PB: Well an inspector that’s right yes well you used to do the courts didn’t you.
EB: I was
PB: You still still
EB: Still
PB: You were at Grimsby though
EB: Oh yes I used to go to court every two weeks seven days a week and then.
PB: You used to do the courts at Brigg.
EB: Yes that was every Friday.
PB: On a Friday Friday was it ah.
EB: That was like for country people er and then I finished there of course then it all collapsed didn’t it stopped doing it.
PB: Yes that’s right.
AH: What was it like being in Boston during the war?
PB: Ooh well it was queer really I can’t imagine now what it was like I mean everybody knew everybody else didn’t they?
EB: Oh yes.
PB: I mean you could always go out and meet somebody you knew I mean even your next door neighbour they were all sort of friends together wand it you never got stuck going out on your own because they was always somebody to go with want there?
EB: Yes.
PB: It was a busy little place nice though want it?
EB: Oh yes.
PB: It was a nice place though really.
EB: Not now.
PB: To what it is now it’s all these Polish people can we say that?
EB: Well it’s the truth in’t it.
PB: Well I mean my sister she died a year ago but I mean she used to say she lived just outside Boston and I am pleased she did ‘cos she said going into town it was just horrendous mmm.
AH: Was it bombed badly?
PB: No not really was it?
EB: No.
PB: There want much bombing was there I don’t think.
EB: No.
PB: Want.
EB: No no you didn’t get any.
PB: We didn’t get much at all I mean used to know when they went out on a raid because they used to go over our house and then I used to ring the next day to see if he’d got back [laughs] but we want on the phone at home we used to have to go round onto the main road and find a phone box [laughs].
AH: What was it like hearing them go over was it frightening or was it?
PB: Oh yes ‘cos we used to think well they’ve gone are they going to come back that’s it I can always remember we used to go out of the house and stand in the back yard and see all these planes go over and they seemed to be so low you know they didn’t seem to be high up you know you could sort of see them so plain it was queer really want it.
EB: They used to land a lot of stuff in didn’t they they used to land a lot of.
PB: Oh yes.
EB: They used to land a lot the
PB: Oh yes.
EB: The smaller things not the big fish the little fish didn’t they.
PB: Are you talking about the fisherman.
EB: Yes altogether though weren’t there.
PB: Oh yes Boston yes the fisherman used to be there the same then oh yes you used to go on a Friday and get a big bag of prawns for sixpence [laughs].
AH: What was it like when it when the war started and suddenly all these planes came and?
PB: Well you see when I when the war started I was at school and we used to well when where we lived was in Frampton Place and I used to go to school at Sandland School and it was er we used to have a gas mask you see a little boxes with a gas mask on and we used to walk to the school with the box on and we often used to have air raid practices about every other raid used to go out and one thing and another and er it was funny really want it?
EB: Oh yeah.
PB: I mean you always used to be together you know you’d never sort of be on your own I mean there was a big family of us though there was six seven of us six girls and one boy and then there’s mum and dad you see and er all the neighbours knew everybody else didn’t they?
EB: Oh yeah yeah.
PB: But er yeah yeah there were a lot of nice people in Boston in our time want there?
EB: Mmm, different now in’t it.
PB: Different now yes it is.
AH: I’m just going to put it on pause while I look at the paper.
PB: Pardon, the air force ‘cos you brought me that bag and those oranges straight off the trees.
EB: No Italy.
PB: Italy that yes.
EB: Nice there.
PB: ‘Cos you did some trips would you fetch them home?
EB: Yes the idea was that everybody would get the lads home but it didn’t work it didn’t work like that but er a lot of them we couldn’t find anybody there it was all afternoons in Italy we didn’t go far er but er we didn’t get home we did about four of those trips they were handy for us ‘cos you could buy bits and bobs.
PB: Well it was a rest it was a change want it for you to do that.
EB: Oh yeah yeah.
AH: When was that do you know?
EB: Oh soon after the war finished the idea was to get them back and
PB: Was it soon after the war?
EB: Mmm.
PB: Just at the beginning?
EB: Yeah no there didn’t have that many we were talking about the war of course.
PB: Yes,
EB: I mean and that was war and we weren’t we were getting to there to get and bring it home so we so they must have been poor [unclear].
PB: [Unclear]
EB: They were not very keen of doing anything they were idle ‘cos I don’t remember seeing us [unclear] from there but we did bring them home and that was it nice.
PB: ‘Cos you brought me that basket back didn’t you?
EB: Yeah.
PB: And that leather handbag and you always used to bring some nice oranges want there and that was a treat then to get nice oranges from Italy want it?
EB: Yeah.
AH: So did you fly did you stay out there?
EB: No no only well you you [unclear] lots of people for people going back home so we had to wait for them to go and then it was out turn sort of thing so we didn’t go in a hurry but it was nice you could look at all the stuff that was there it was very nice er there was no war by the look of it we never I don’t think we had a war and I did that.
PB: Do you want a drink or anything?
AH: Could I have a small water please, thank you. Did you speak to the Italians when you were out there?
PB: Did you speak what?
AH: Did he speak to the Italians?
PB: Did you speak to the Italians I don’t think you did did you?
EB: I don’t think so now but er we were so wrapped up in taking [unclear background noise] ‘cos I mean it was nice but it was a shame to do any damage really.
PB: I’ll have to make myself a drink. [Pause while making a drink]. Do you want me to make you a drink?
EB: Aye [kettle boiling in background] I think the eldest was about well in the forties er the third one he was quite well liked [unclear] beyond us all yet he married a girl in [unclear] and went to Australia and the other one there was one there he had a wonder job again it was in the heat and the only one was he was used to doing things like flying to Australia he did and er and then there was the pilot of course he killed himself eventually in his car, he er [unclear] he went home back to help his father in the business which he did and er two or three years later phone rang [unclear] and a girl not a girl anyway we stopped and he said ‘oh I’ve got something to tell you’ I said ‘what’s that?’ he said ‘[unclear] oh I said ‘that’s all right then’ you know he didn’t like it but he would do it and er after two years later one of the colleagues I was working with er came to me and he I was on my way home and he knew me and he said ‘do you know a man who went to Australia with you’ I said ‘oh yes I write to him but I haven’t seen him lately’ he said ‘oh you won’t he’s dead’ that was the father that was the son of the father and er he’s gone too fast and that was the end of the car.
AH: And then you went to Givenea[?] ?
EB: Mmm Givenea [?]yes
AH: I don’t know how to pronounce it? Do you remember that?
EB: I remember part of it yes but er I don’t remember going there, when that fourth down
AH: Yes
EB: Two or three times open the door and that was [unclear] another one mmm tells you the hours spent there we weren’t very long there oh we got recalled look.
AH: Oh yes.
EB: We had to go back one here for nine hours that was mine laying.
AH: Was there a big difference between being a pathfinder and mine laying?
EB: Er yes because we did everything for their benefit you know wasn’t case of going together it was our job to go out do this do that and bring it back again so they so that was the that was the er that what it was all about before we started that you used to have odd cars [unclear] and what we are going to do and then they brought out this and er they also brought out what was the [unclear] it was hell of a way different.
AH: You flew to Kattegat?
EB: Yes
AH: German cruises?
EB: Yes Urst Dam, Leipburgen [?], Dusseldorf that was a reasonable place.
AH: That was a big raid?
EB: Mmm it mean’t going a long way ten hours look you see that’s what it took us.
AH: Oh Trantaine[?] submarine pens.
EB: Mmm.
AH: Do you remember that?
EB: No I don’t any of those nine hours Germany, German Navy there having a good game there.
AH: Oh you got hit by a shell?
EB: Yeah yeah now this could be the I remember we were hit with something er it was a shell want it.
AH: And your wing caught fire?
EB: Mmm.
PB: Yes that’s right.
EB: Yes that was when we were coming out of target and er the fire was on the it was on then er [unclear] that way I suppose.
AH: At Germany Giessen.
PB: Germany.
EB: Course some of these days it was all Germany [laughs].
AH: Was that frightening when you got hit?
EB: Yeah I was with one night one had hit me and er why we went out we’ll never know [laughs] it shouldn’t have gone out it was luck.
AH: But the fire went out?
EB: Yep.
AH: And you went home to your normal base?
EB: Yeah yeah well the odd times you would go to some er to south of London actually only if there was a fire or anything we generally we got home as and when we wanted to but we did have we did have means of doing it if you couldn’t get the other way and we used to have these places just one lot of aerodromes and things and you used to go down onto these we managed to get down there.
AH: Did you that?
EB: Odd times just odd times and I remember one night we er we were far from landing er we stuck out in Scotland out in fog so we came out in this hotel posh hotel and er these seven people fed us all and that was very nice of them and then fog went dash home start again next week used to set about twelve or fourteen aeroplanes at a time in one lot mmm.
AH: Is there anything else you can think of?
EB: I was just thinking I can’t let’s right we did I remember we had one er there was six men going to Italy er and when I say six one there was another one but he was [laughs] funny crew and while he ever got on it I’ll never know and he got out to Italy and he got shot down coming home and they were all they were all er [unclear] did business apart from this fool who we had he had hair down here somewhere.
AH: How come he got shot down wasn’t the war over?
EB: Well they used to follow you but er they the Germans used to hide away and of course they’d been in and out to get the right place and er that was it and there was hell of a lot shot down normally but er it wasn’t too bad in Italy they didn’t try too much there but er Germans were just terrible. That’s the medal but they wanted a special thing so I could put all the er things there Canwick Hill at Lincoln.
AH: At the memorial?
EB: Yeah there’s another one now.
PB: That’s the same one in’t it.
EB: Similar no it’s not I er I haven’t got that one but er they built them there was no end [unclear] South of Lincoln wasn’t it?
PB: Yeah but then but wasn’t it London as well Sandra took those photographs for you, London?
EB: Yes.
PB: What was that there?
EB: You catch the odd one.
PB: Well they’ve built that now haven’t they?
AH: I think so I haven’t seen it.
EB: Want the money expensive.
AH: How do you feel about the Memorial?
EB: That’d be the one wouldn’t it.
PB: This is the one that they are building now Eric they want some more money for it.
EB: Yes.
AH: Are you pleased they built it?
EB: To me it seems an awful lot you know [telephone ringing] seems a lot of money.
Dublin Core
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ABrownE160314
Title
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Interview with Eric Brown
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:09:40 audio recording
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Date
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2016-03-14
Description
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Eric left school at 14 and worked in a bakery and then in accountancy. Aged 17 he volunteered for aircrew and trained as a flight engineer. He became a pathfinder and carried out operations to Hamburg, Karlsruhe, and Dortmund, flying from RAF Coningsby. We was with 106, 97 and 57 Squadrons. After the war he joined the police force, rising to the rank of inspector.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Dortmund
Contributor
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Jackie Simpson
Terry Holmes
106 Squadron
57 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
flight engineer
Lancaster
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
Stirling
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/583/8852/PHolmesGH1604.2.jpg
134f273cd93e015a7d789b8e877b159b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/583/8852/AHolmesGH161016.1.mp3
cc225552ec17450d62364d1a1b362db0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Holmes, George
George Henry Holmes
G H Holmes
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Holmes, GH
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer George Holmes (b. 1922, 1579658, 187788 Royal Air Force) his log book, records of operation, newspaper cuttings and photographs of personnel. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 9, 50 and 83 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by George Holmes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Date
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2016-10-21
2017-01-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Mr George Henry Holmes. The interview is taking place at Mr Holmes’ home [deleted] Lincolnshire on the 16th of October 2016.
GH: Yes. I had some very lucky escapes. We had, we were going to [pause] I’ve written it down. I’ve got a terrible memory.
[pause]
GH: Stuttgart in Germany. And of course they originated in France thinking possibly that there wouldn’t be many, many night fighters there but we got caught and we got shot and it took off the bomb bay doors. They fractured the starboard wheel, ruptured the main spar and left us with cannon shells stuck in the fuel tanks which is actually really instantaneous. And we did a belly landing when we got back and I was one of the first out and running. Somebody said, ‘Are you frightened?’ I said, ‘Have you seen a Lanc go up in flames?’ And the bloke said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘Well. Well, when you do you’ll run faster than I do.’ And actually they took these cannon shells away by the, if you handled the armament, whatever and emptied them they found out that the cannon shells actually had been filled with sand instead of explosives. Otherwise we would have gone up in one. And that was once. And another night someone on a circuit when we were coming, of course I was at Skellingthorpe at the time and there were about five or six airfields all around. And we had a bump and nearly got tipped over by the windstream of another aircraft. And when we landed there was about five foot off the end of the pit, of the end of the aeroplane gone. That was, I think we could call a very near miss. And all through my career they used to say you’ve got to get it right. The good crews survive and the bad crews don’t. But when you’re dealing with an aeroplane that’s attacking you at about between five and six hundred mile an hour you don’t have time to work out all the superlatives. You just learn how to, well you have to try to get him in to four hundred yards for the ammo to be, do any damage whatsoever. And these would wait about a thousand yards and pump these things in to you, you know. But, yes we lost a lot of young men at the time. Look back sometimes and I think how the hell did we get through it?
AH: How did you come to join the RAF?
GH: Mixed feelings. I was living in Kettering at the time and I would be about six years of age. I’d only just joined school which was a joining age in those days of about six years I think and I saw the R100 or the R101 in the sky. A most amazing sight. And of course everybody was reading Biggles books so I wanted to be a Biggles man. And my father wouldn’t sign any papers for me so when I was eighteen I went down and joined the RAF as an air gunner. But there were so many enlisting at the time it was over twelve months I think before I was called. And they wanted me to be a pilot or navigator. I said, ‘No. I want to be an air gunner W/Op.’ Anyway, I finished up there. They made me a wireless operator / air gunner. Well, up to going into the air force I’d hoped to be a semi-professional musician because I played the violin from seven years of age to when I went in the air force, eighteen. And I played the violin, trumpet and a mandolin. And the man who was teaching me he used to make instruments and he was going to teach me how to make them. And, you know when I went in the air force I was in the air force for just over five years. I couldn’t get back to the standard that I was in and work for a living at the same time because you’ve got to put about two to three hours a day in you know, to it. So I abandoned the musical stuff. And actually I was at an old miner’s school. A corrugated tin hut thing and when we moved to Leicester and I was a top boy at the school. The teaching, they taught us in that stinking little old tin hut was beyond their, what they were teaching us in there. They told me I couldn’t do joined up writing. We’d got to go back to scroll, you know. But I went to a school that was attached to the College of Art and Technology and I was studying textiles and hosiery. And I earned a very good living through the entire working life producing socks, stockings, knee socks and things like that. Of course you got paid in on production in those days. You didn’t get a standing wage. The more you made the more you got paid. And you were allowed ten needles per week and if you broke more than that you had to pay for them. Six pence each I think they were then. The unions would go bloody mad now wouldn’t they? [laughs] I had a very good education really. I was very fortunate. I was almost fluent in French. The French master said, ‘I can’t understand you, Holmes. You’re the worst pupil I’ve ever had. You’re always talking, take no notice, I can’t understand how you’ve got top of the class in French.’ And I said, ‘Well, it’s simple. You gave us a half an hour’s homework and I always got an hour. So I worked harder than anybody else.’ [laughs] But I had a very good — my parents were not wealthy. My dad was a manager of a, the management of a grocery shop. You know these, what they were before the war. Several strains of food, food retailers and I really thought I was going to be a semi-professional musician. But I abandoned that scheme altogether and I got my sleeves rolled up and got stuck in this hosiery thing. ‘Til the war of course and then I couldn’t get, I couldn’t wait to get in the air force. And I finished up as a wireless operator / air gunner due to the fact, I always presumed, I don’t know whether it’s true or not but the fact that I had learned music, got some dashes and all like that. Morse code came easy and I was a very good operator. But apart from that I had a very happy marriage. I’ve got one son. He’s sixty seven now. And a he’s a fourth [unclear] at Judo. But life is a wonderful thing. Not to be wasted. And when you look at the war and see the number of thousands of young people who were wasted in the war. And the building and the costs. At the end of the day you have to sit around a table and talk it over from the first day. Save a lot of trouble and strife. But of course in those days Bomber Command was the thing.
AH: So you wanted to join Bomber Command?
GH: Oh yes. But then when you say wanted to join Bomber Command I’d always worked shifts. Night shifts and three shifts and things. I thought if I go in to the air force I’d be alright. And what did they do? They stuck me on Bomber Command. It was night work. But it wasn’t altogether good so as you look in the book you’ll see I did quite a number of daylight operations.
AH: Where did you train?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Where did you train? Where did you do your training?
GH: Where did I do my training? It was wonderful really. I I went to Blackpool first of all. That was the Number 10 RS something it was called. Signals Reserve or something. And they were all radio personnel in the air force up there. And we had a bloke called corporal [pause] I forget his name now. Corporal. Used to take us to the arm drill and foot drill. And his stage name was Max Wall. Can you imagine a man like Max Wall teaching you? Amazing. And then I went down to Yatesbury for a radio course. And I was posted then to Manby in the ground wireless op ‘til they could fit me into an air gunner’s course. Well, Manby in those days was number 1 AS. Air Armaments School and they taught bomb aimers and air gunners. We kept going to see the groupie and saying, ‘Get us on the course for air gunners.’ ‘No. You have to wait until you come through officially.’ When it did come through we was at a place called Evanton. About forty mile north of Inverness. First time I’d been to Scotland. In June it was. And it was a wonderful summer. And it was the first time I’d seen the shaggy Highland cattle. And I was taken by Scotland ever after that. Then after that, the gunnery course, I was sent to Market Harborough which is now a prison. And I used to push off home every night. After being there about three weeks the CO said, ‘We’re getting rid of you. You’re never here.’ It used to take me an hour to get home from Market Harborough on the local bus through all these villages. Little villages. And I was posted to Silverstone. And at Silverstone if you went in and out by railway you could get a train called the Master Cutler which was a high speed train from Sheffield to London and back. It used to do that in forty five minutes. That was quicker than being in [laughs] And I got crewed up there then and joined the [unclear] so to speak but I suppose if you were young men you had to be in something. You had no objection. I mean, no one wanted you to be a conscientious objector or anything. There we were. I joined Bomber Command and I was very lucky because I got with some good crews and I must admit I was commissioned towards the end of the war as a wireless op and I got operational strain and one thing or another. I was a bit of a drunkard. The only way of overcoming some of the strenuous [pause] I mean the beer we were drinking in those days I think was 1.2 percent alcohol. The water you washed the glasses in was stronger than the beer.
AH: So did you drink mainly beer? Or did you drink other stuff?
GH: No. No. The doc said, our doc on the squadron, ‘Go out and get pissed. It’ll do you good. Don’t go on spirits.’ And I was based around here. Around Louth. One way or another. It’s so that when my wife and I decided to come and live here it was after I’d retired. It was a home away from home really.
AH: Where were you first based? Where were you based first?
GH: Where was —?
AH: Where were you first based? Which was your first base? Where were you sent first?
GH: Oh. At a place called Bardney. Just outside Louth. And we got there. The place was, looked vacant and we got out the transport and looked around and looked in the ditches and it was full of bodies. We said, ‘What are you doing down there?’ They said, ‘Bugger off, there’s a fire in the bomb dump.’ So we said, ‘Oh, we’ll leave you to it then.’ But anyway a guy put it out. And then we went from that place. I did six ops there. And then we went to Skellingthorpe where the pilot was made up to a squadron leader. And we were only allowed two or three operations a month due to the losses of experienced crews. And by the time we’d done twenty trips together he, the pilot and the navigator went over to Pathfinders as the rest of the crew did. And the, the crew got sort of crewed up but the wireless, he didn’t want a wireless. He brought one with him, the pilot. So I was a spare bod and I went with an Aussie crew. His name was Cassidy and he’d got it painted on the side of a Lancaster. “Hop Along Cassidy’s Flying Circus.’ And I finished up at the one near Boston. What is it?
AH: Coningsby?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Coningsby?
GH: Coningsby. Yes. Yes.
AH: What squadron were you in first?
GH: 9. And then I went on to 50 at Skellingthorpe and then I went on to 83 at Coningsby.
AH: And what planes?
GH: Lancs. Well, after the war, if you look in the book look I went on a tour to South America. They sent three what were called Lancaster Mark 21s I think. But in actual fact they renamed them to Lincolns. It was a bigger aircraft that the Lancaster. Especially built for the war against the Japanese. And we went right down the west coast of Africa and then across over the Atlantic to Brazil and then right down to Santiago. Flew over the second highest mountain in the world I think it is. Aconcagua. But by then I’d decided I would take a course, this course on radiography, radio operating and get on to the public airlines. And I’d met my lady who I married and I found out that to be on public airlines you were away for home for anything from six weeks to three months. I thought well that’s not right. So I docked that and as I say I stayed in the hosiery trade. Yeah. Had quite a varied existence one way or another.
AH: What did you do in South America?
GH: Demonstrated the aircraft. I think they’d got that many four engine aircraft they didn’t know what to do with them and they were trying to flog them to anybody who’d buy them. God knows where all the aeroplanes went to. They just suddenly disappeared.
AH: And what was it like there?
GH: Pardon?
AH: And what was it like? Were they interested?
GH: Interesting.
AH: Were they interested in the aircraft?
GH: Oh very much so. Yes. Yes. Whilst we were there there was an earthquake in Peru and they wished us to send someone who would take some supplies over to Peru for the earthquake. And the air force said they couldn’t be allowed to do that because although we’d get to Peru and land they hadn’t got an air force runway long enough to take off so we’d be stuck. But yeah. Funny thing was we all decided when we were going to Brazil we would get together and learn Spanish. And when we got to Brazil they didn’t speak Spanish. They spoke Portuguese [laughs]
AH: How long were you out there for?
GH: Oh not very long. I should think, well if you look in the book it’ll tell you how long. About four weeks I think. We did one leg of the journey per day. And —
AH: And when were you demobbed?
GH: When? I think it was June of 1945.
AH: And how long were you in 9 Squadron?
GH: Pardon?
AH: How long were you in 9 Squadron?
GH: Only a few weeks. Not very long.
AH: What was it like?
GH: Quite an eye opener really. Mainly we were supporting the invasion. In fact that was the first time I’d ever seen the white cliffs of Dover coming back from France on D-Day. As I say all the boats going over.
AH: How did that feel?
GH: Have I —?
AH: How did that feel?
GH: Satisfied I would think would be the only expression. That we were doing something. And of course that’s another point. I mean I don’t know whether you’ve watched it on telly but they give you films of the actual landings in France and they chuck the blokes out into the water that was about six foot deep. They were drowned. Never got to France at all. Instead of waiting for the tide to go out. Some damned idiots in this military attitude.
AH: What did you think of Bomber Command?
GH: Well organised. To a certain extent they were very well organised. Many actual Bomber Command crews packed up before they’d completed a tour of course because it was a great strain. I remember doing a daylight on, I think it was at one of the flying bomb sites when they were launching flying bombs. And of course Bomber Command never flew in the way the Yanks did. They had three people from leading in and everybody was sort of doing what they called a gaggle at the back. And we were close up behind this three Bomber Command [pause] well, leaders I suppose and I looked up and saw an aircraft above was opening his bomb doors. I thought it’s going to drop on him shortly. Anyway he did. He dropped them and then it just floated down. Hit the aircraft on the right hand side, the starboard, knocked his wing off and he spun over and tipped the wing of the other who went that way and he tipped the wing of the other and went that way. And there were bodies without parachutes floating around and everything. And it was Cheshire who was controlling the raid. Called the raid off because he said the chaps didn’t stand a chance if we bombed it. So we flew back to the North Sea and dumped the bombs and went home. But the things like that they were happening every day. You know, I mean I’m afraid you accepted it.
AH: Do you remember where you were going on that raid?
GH: Not completely. No. Because there were one or two launch sites for flying bombs. I mean at one time as far as I know they were, they were launching something like ten thousand pound. Ten thousand flying bombs in a matter of a month or whatever, you know. I mean they were really showering the south of England with them. And —
AH: And how did you feel when you saw the bombs coming?
GH: I hope to God it misses me. To be truthful. But it was a sight, you know. Their only, these aircraft which they hit and damaged were only about a hundred, hundred and fifty yards in front of us. A matter of three seconds or something isn’t it? The speed we were flying at it could have been us. But many of the young lads who joined up when I joined up never finished. They were killed. A great deal of loss of human youngsters. Many of them technicians and people we missed after the war finished because of their experiences. And if you take that you promise me I will get it back?
AH: Yeah.
GH: Because I applied for the Aircrew Europe Star which was allotted to everybody who did two or more operations before D-Day which I did and I was told I didn’t, I hadn’t done enough. So when they issued the Bomber Command medal at the end of the war they said I couldn’t have that either because I’d got the 1939-45 Star or something. I don’t know. I thought well that’s great. I did twenty one ops and I never got a bomber medal. It’s unbelievable some fairy in Whitehall who was domineering the life span of the one doing the work. But the main thing I need at the present moment is some backup somewhere to get, I mean I mentioned to you earlier how much it cost. I was only getting two hundred and ninety pound a month. That’s about seventy pound a week towards the cost of being here and it was costing [pause] what was it? Well, a monthly, the monthly cost here is three thousand and forty one which is quite expensive. I think it’s a very good. I get my monies worth. But I think the company, the government or whoever, the Department of Works and Pension allow me something to help me pay for it and they want [coughs] they just knocked off the pension credit. I’m about two and a half thousand pound a month worse off when I got a pay rise of two pounds and fifteen pence [pause] In other words hard luck isn’t it? You know I mean I’m not the sort of person who is laid back and you handed something but I’ve worked all, all my own life. What I’ve got I’ve chased the work of one kind or another. Whether it was in the air force or out. And I’m disgusted actually to think the money that gets wasted.
AH: Could I just ask you a few more questions about the war?
GH: Yes.
AH: What did you think of the way Bomber Harris was treated?
GH: Disgustingly. As I said earlier he was blamed for bombing the population whereas the targets were selected by the War Committee. And the two leaders of that were Lord Portal and Winston Churchill. Bomber Harris was behind his crews all the way. Next question.
AH: Where did you go after 9 Squadron?
GH: With 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe. That was, it was so far to the sergeant’s mess from where we were displayed in Nissen huts we used to go into Lincoln for breakfast [laughs]
AH: What sort of squadron was it?
GH: What 83? Er 50?
AH: 50.
GH: Very very compatible actually. The man who was my pilot took his place as flight commander was Metham. He finished up deputy leader of some bomber group. Was it Metham? He’s a well-known, established leader of the Royal Air Force.
AH: Was that a Pathfinder squadron?
GH: No. No. They only had two Pathfinder squadrons. They were both at Coningsby. 83 and 97.
AH: Were you in them at all?
GH: I was on 83. I did, I think nine trips with 83 Squadron. They said that it was easy on Pathfinders of course. You, if you’re first flare leaders putting the flares down you went over and laid your flares and shot off home but they didn’t tell you when you started laying your flares you had to put it in automatic pilot and you couldn’t drift. So by the time you got to the end of laying the flares the Germans had got all the information of what you were doing [pause]
GH: And I have the greatest admiration of the German people and Germany itself. Moreso than any other European country. I have a great ideal, great ideals of them. They’re a wonderful people. We should never have gone to war against them. Well, should we?
AH: What do you think we should have done?
GH: Pardon?
AH: What could, what could Britain have done instead?
GH: Shot Adolf Hitler. It was a dictator. A man who believes beyond his experience. I think, well what’s happening in the world today? I mean we’re now fighting the, oh ethnic crowds that we were fighting in the days of Christ. For two thousand years we’ve been fighting. Still doing it and we’ll lose in the end. Of course people say they mean good. If you read the Koran as far as I remember the first rule is thou shalt now kill. And I think the fourth one is thou shalt kill all non-believers. So it leaves you in a sticky mess. And they’re gaining popularity all the while.
AH: When did you read the Koran?
GH: I haven’t read the Koran. I’ve read extracts from it. I’m quite interested in reading other people’s religions and of course in actual fact I believe in the bible which says when you die it’s ashes to ashes and dust to dust. I don’t think there’s a heaven up there. I don’t think there’s anything like that. I think it’s just, you’re just dead meat. Unfortunately. And many many people leave their readings, writings and paintings to be perused over and you get the benefit of their experience.
AH: Have you written anything?
GH: Written anything? Only rude things on the wall [laughs]. No. I wish I could have written things. I was too busy with music. As I said I went to a school where we had possibly an hour to two hours homework every night of various kinds and I didn’t really get out amongst other young fellas of my age because I was doing one to two hours music training as well. Now, the school I went to had started a school orchestra. Violin, banjo and drums. And I loved music. But as I say when I went in the air force I didn’t take a violin with me and I should have done I suppose. After being in five years my fingers were all stiffened up with, didn’t work. So I abandoned it straightaway and got on with earning a living
[knocking on door]
GH: Come in.
Other: Sorry to disturb you.
AH: I’ll just put this on pause.
[recording paused]
GH: They don’t look like reading my writing for a start. But there’s a cutting in there I think I mentioned it earlier on from Stalin who stated he wanted the Bomber Command to burn Dresden because they were using it to refuel the battlefield. And it wasn’t so because after the war I were working with some of the replacement Polish people and they said they’d been in Dresden and there were no army facilities there at all. There was no reason for them to bomb it.
[pause]
GH: And I have a younger sister who’s ninety in October. Laurie. So we’re quite a long lived family aren’t we?
AH: How old are you?
GH: Ninety four. Feel a hundred and four [laughs] some mornings. Yes.
AH: You’ve got a picture here of Squadron Leader Munro.
GH: Yes. He wanted to crew up with us. He’s just recently died you know. A New Zealander. That was when I was at gunnery school at Scotland.
AH: Which one’s you?
GH: How dare you say that [laughs] I haven’t changed that much at all surely. I’m the shortest one. Yes. And that’s my favourite photograph of myself.
AH: That’s nice.
[pause]
GH: Yes. It’s a wonderful world and I’ve met some wonderful people and I’ve had some wonderful friends and relatives. It’s been enjoyment. Mixing the good with the bad makes you appreciate it all the more. We came out of there as you go in.
AH: You talked about the strain of it. What was the worst strain?
GH: Being with Bomber Command? Well, naturally the, the operations themselves. They were well organised, I don’t mean like that but I mean they always taught us the best crews will get through. Did I mention to you before luck has a lot to do with it? And I mean a matter of seconds in some cases. I never flew as an air gunner though. I was in the Home Guard before I went in the air force. In Leicester. Well a little village outside Leicester called Narborough. And they used to send me out on a railway bridge defending the bridge at night time with a bayonet fastened to a broomstick with string. I don’t know what you were supposed to do with it. I had a few thoughts. But by the time I went into the air force I was fully trained and I’d got a Canadian Ross rifle that was in a cloth bag with about two inches of grease all around it. And I cleaned it up and the stock of it was beautiful. Lovely gun. And one of the chaps, he was a sergeant. I think he must have been a sniper. He said, ‘I’ll teach you how to fire a gun George.’ Because,’ he said, ‘Let’s face it. Who’s the last person that knows when you’re going to pull the trigger?’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ He said, ‘Well you don’t pull the trigger. You squeeze your hand. And you don’t jolt it.’ And I could hit an eight hundred target, a bull at eight hundred yards. Which is quite good shooting I think. But I never did fly as a air gunner. I flew once as a tail gunner. And the tail one was like that. You knew all I got it I knew I wouldn’t have that for long.
AH: Did you get bombed yourself?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Did you get bombed yourself? In Leicester.
GH: Well, Leicester got bombed while I lived there. But we lived on the outskirts. And of course like most targets they usually go for the city centre first where all the main multiples are. And I was, I was quite happy in the Home Guard because we got very very good training. Initially it was useless. For the first two years. But when they got organised they got organised. And I sit and watch “Dad’s Army,” you know. And I I don’t know who picked the cast but it’s amazing to think [laughs] they look like real people [laughs] Anything else?
AH: Did you meet your wife during the war?
GH: No. I met her after the war. One of the boys who’s died in the last two years from Leicester was in training with me all the way through and he finished up at Coningsby on 97 Squadron and I finished up on 83. And his wife and my wife or future wife or his future wife, they used to go dancing Saturday nights together. And I met this girl one night in the RAF club. And I can’t understand that, I can’t explain the feeling but she was wonderful. And I said, ‘Can I see you again?’ And she said, ‘Well, I can’t see you for two weeks because I’m going up to Lincolnshire. To a town that you’ve never heard of.’ Well, I’d done all my training and everything here so I said, ‘Well, try me then.’ She said, ‘Louth.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve got news for you. I can’t go to Louth again [laughs] They’d shoot me.’ And she was always dying her hair. I think after the first two months I knew her she must have had about six or seven changes of colour. She was lovely though.
AH: What was her name?
GH: Barbara. And when we first got married we had to live in the front room of my mum and dad’s house until we could get somewhere. Everyone does I suppose. And her uncle was a butcher and he used to do all the joints of meat for Leicester. And this friend of his, a friend of his or someone in the trade he dealt with was the housing minister for Leicester. And in those days you couldn’t get housed if you hadn’t got a wood licence. You had to have a timber licence. And he mentioned to this gent that I was having trouble with my wife’s breathing because my mother and father had a dog and she was allergic to dog hair. And he said to this young gent, ‘He’s just come out the air force and he definitely wants a house but, and his wife is allergic to dog hairs and has to get out, you know of home and have his own place.’ And the fellow twiddled it a little bit and got me a timber licence and away we went. We bought a semi for nineteen hundred quid. And then after a while we bought, we bought a complete des res like, you know what do you call it? A house on its own at, in Oadby near to Leicester at the back of the racecourse and you got a full view of the racecourse. And I used to say to people, ‘I’ve got a nice place. There’s about four furlongs of grass at the back and they came and cut it, you know regularly,’ [laughs] But as I say we had this problem with this hooligan who was threatening her so that’s how we moved to Louth. But I mean moving to Louth was like going next door to the pair of us because we’d both been here so many times.
AH: Did you like Louth?
GH: I think it’s very nice. And I think once you get into Louth the people will do anything but they’re a little offish at the start. But it’s a lovely little town. I was born in Mansfield. In the Sherwood Forest. But I did like Louth there. Very much.
AH: What was your home like there?
GH: Where?
AH: In Mansfield.
GH: Well, I was brought up with my grandparents. I wasn’t brought up with my mother and father. They couldn’t get anywhere to live in, although my sister had been born. They wouldn’t accept anyone with two children so they farmed me off with my grandparents. My grandmother Holmes, when I was six or seven or eight years of age taught me how to sew and darn and knit.
AH: Did you have use of that later?
GH: Yes. Because I went into the hosiery trade and it was the machines that knit things make exactly the same loop as you do a knitting pin. And of course as I say I, I had a quite a few jobs. The job I had at Byfords. The other chap working next to me who was in his forties hadn’t been taken to the army. Hadn’t been called up. With a wife and two children. He always used to go down smoking in the toilets about once every hour and I used to run his machines as well as mine. And one day, you used to put your earnings under the table where they kept all the yarns and everything. He had a sneaky look and he found out I was earning more than him. So he went to the manager and he said he didn’t see any reason why someone’s underage that were in machinery should be earning more than he did. So they said, ‘Oh alright, we’ll give you two of his machines. They had me in the office and they said, ‘You’ve been bragging.’ I said, ‘What about?’ They said, ‘What you earn.’ I said, ‘I daren’t tell my father what earn. He’d go mad.’ I was earning as much or twice as much as my dad. And they said, ‘Well, we’re going to take two of your machines off you and you’ll run them for him.’ So I said, ‘I have an idea now. You can stick them up your arse.’ And they gave him the bloody lot. I got sacked for insolence. I got another job. I was never out of work. I got training that was necessary and I could go anywhere. I worked at Byfords. They sacked me three times after that incident and a very good job. The only snag is when I went into it before the war you were using cotton and well, wool and the machines were covered in like a white powder from the cotton in the wool, you know. And after the war when they started using synthetic fibres I think the synthetic fibres were so small you swallowed them. And I have a difficulty with breathing actually which is due to that I think. But nobody would say so because you then would jump then and say I want paid for being. I don’t think, I don’t think there’s more than one or two hosiery factories left in Leicester and it used to be the main city for hosiery. But that was all, that was all shift work. Night work and not very conducive for family life. I used to go to work because I mean you were busy. It didn’t bother you but my wife was stuck at home on her own you know and I didn’t realise until after I’d lost her that that’s what the problem was really. Basically. But we had a good life together. Yeah.
AH: Was your father or your grandfather in the First World War?
GH: Both my father and my wife’s father were in the First World War. My wife’s father was stationed at Louth here. In the Leicester, what did they call it? It was a mountain brigade. And he was only a little bloke. Smaller than me. And he looked like, well you just couldn’t imagine him sat on a horse.
AH: What he was called?
GH: Pardon?
AH: What he was called?
GH: His surname? Evans. Evans. Good Evans. I went to Edmonton for my gunnery course and we had a group captain called Group Captain Evans Evans and he got awarded the French medal. The Croix de Guerre. And he said, ‘Although I flew in World War One I’ve not flown in World War Two and I don’t think I deserved it. So I shall get a crew together and fly.’ So I went to my CO and I said, ‘Look, old Evans Evans is getting a crew together.’ We had a chance to get in because at that time I was a spare. And he said, ‘No, I don’t think so. My wireless op is covering that because he’s one behind everyone else in the crew and we all want to finish together.’ And off they went and they were shot down by the Americans before they got to the war. Before they got to the war line they were shot down by the Americans. And the only one that got out was the rear gunner. So that was another lucky escape. Just how the penny drops isn’t it? Am I boring you? Say so if I am. Anyway [pause] I am suffering really from the breathing quite badly.
AH: Shall we finish?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Do you want us to finish?
GH: Yes.
AH: Thank you very much.
GH: Quite all right. If it’s been of any —
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Interview with George Holmes
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Anna Hoyles
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-10-16
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AHolmesGH161016
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Pending review
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Brazil
Chile
Germany
Great Britain
Peru
Chile--Santiago
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Stuttgart
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1946
Description
An account of the resource
George was born in Mansfield and was bought up by his Grandparents until he was seven when he moved back to his parents in Leicester where his Father ran a coffee shop. He was a semi-professional musician playing violin, trumpet and mandolin. He studied hosiery at college and worked in hosiery production his entire working life. He joined the Home Guard in Narborough, and recalls how he defended the railway bridge at night time with a bayonet fastened to a broom stick with string. After volunteering for the Air Force he was sent to Blackpool for training. The corporal who taught him foot drill went on to be the comedian Max Wall. He was then sent to RAF Yatesbury for his radio course, and then forwarded to the Air Armourers school. After completing the course, he was posted to RAF Evanton for a gunner’s course. His next posting was to RAF Market Harborough, but was only there for three weeks before he was sent to RAF Silverstone for crewing up. His first station was RAF Bardney with 9 Squadron for a few weeks. He remembers that when they arrived at Bardney it was deserted and they found everyone lying on the floor in the kitchen as the bomb dump was on fire. The crew were then posted to RAF Skellingthorpe in 50 Squadron and they completed 20 operations. George recalls a daylight operation on a V-1 site, and he witnessed the Lancaster that was above them blown up and seeing the bodies of the crew falling past their aircraft. The crew were then split up when the pilot and navigator joined the Pathfinders and he became a spare bod. He eventually joined an Australian crew in 83 Squadron at RAF Coningsby and completed a further nine operations. His pilot was called Cassidy and the nose art on the Lancaster was “Hop along Cassidy’s Flying Circus.” After the war he took part in a tour of South America and discusses an earthquake in Peru. He discusses his religious beliefs and how the war, Bomber Command, and Arthur Harris have been remembered. He met his wife Barbara after the war at a dance in the RAF club and they had one son.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:08:02 audio recording
50 Squadron
83 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bomb dump
bomb struck
bombing
civil defence
crewing up
faith
forced landing
Home Guard
Lancaster
mid-air collision
nose art
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Bardney
RAF Coningsby
RAF Evanton
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
training
wireless operator / air gunner
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/197/3332/AAtkinsG160929.2.mp3
9b38cd43b07e35b6cca1c08e2d9ec8d9
Dublin Core
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Title
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Atkins, Glenn
Glenn Atkins
G Atkins
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Glenn Atkins (3131148 Royal Air Force). He completed his national service in the RAF during the Cold War.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-09-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Atkins, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GA: Although I should have gone because I was in the ATC.
CB: Good. Right. This is the first of two interviews for people who joined and served in the RAF after the war but this is essentially the legacy of the war and we are now talking about the beginning of the Cold War. So today we’re with Glenn Atkins in Buckingham and he has done a variety of tasks as a National Serviceman and, Glenn, what do you remember, oh it’s the 29th of September 2016. What do you remember Glenn from your, what are your earliest recollections of family life?
GA: Well I was born at Newport Pagnell. I went to Newport Elementary School, passed my eleven plus in 1941 and I went to Wolverton Grammar School which is now combined as a comprehensive but, and it’s interesting I went to school on a train from Newport Pagnell to Wolverton. It was a four mile train journey and, well I went to the grammar school but after two years I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the languages. The French and the Latin. I think there was a French master that used to take the mickey out of me because I couldn’t follow it. He always used to ask me the questions so I had to stand up and make a fool of myself but that could have been something but I had in the last term at the school before the eleven plus one, one period of, one term of engineering drawing which I presumed it was because we were drawing things out of Wolverton Works and stuff like that you know so I got the idea of being a draughtsman and that’s why I wanted to leave the grammar school and go to the technical college in Wolverton which was one of the best technical colleges around because it had Wolverton Carriage Works as its base that did every, everything you could do such as all forms of engineering. In fact we used to have teachers from the technical college for engineering drawing, for woodwork and metal work. Anyway, I had a job to leave the grammar school because the headmaster didn’t want me to go. He thought it was a slur on him that I wanted to leave to go to a technical college and I can’t understand how I was twelve years old and I used to have to sit at this desk. He’d come in after everybody had gone and try to talk me out of it. I can remember him saying, ‘Well we do art.’ So I said, ‘Well that’s not engineering drawing.’ Anyway, my father went to see the headmaster at the technical college and he was anxious to receive me, you know. Well three of us did it. He wasn’t worried about the other two but I went to the technical college and all I can say is that in the first term because it was a two year course when I went at the technical school at thirteen, in the first term we’d covered all the maths we’d done in two years at the grammar school. It’s a bit like this university here. They cover everything in two years don’t they? Anyway, I came about third in the class, had a bit of an advantage though just coming in but, and I was, ended up as, can I say the star pupil at the end of my year. Now then in 1945 the new Education Act said that everybody should stop at school until they were sixteen and the technical college got a new school certificate out and the headmaster who had changed then from the one who accepted me but he wanted me to stop on the extra eighteen months to start the period over with a few others. Well, a friend, a boy that I was in class with who was always top of the class he got a privileged apprentice at Vauxhall Motors. He lived at Leighton Buzzard and it sounded so interesting to me that I wanted to leave school and go on this apprenticeship scheme. I went to Luton on my bike and a bus which I did ‘cause I lived at Newport Pagnell. I went there. I found my way on this Saturday morning with everybody’s not there. Big buildings big rooms. In the end I found my way to the interview and there were four or five guys sat in a circle and me in the middle like you are sitting there firing the questions at me. It was quite an interview really. Anyway, I did that and then I found my way home and I went in Monday morning and we used to have an assembly at 9 o’clock, main assembly and when you left there you had to file past the headmaster’s office and he was standing there and anybody that had done something wrong he would point and, get in his office. Nobody got that except me. ‘In there.’ So I went in there and he said, ‘How did you get on?’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Your interview at Luton.’ I says, ‘How did you know? I never told anybody.’ ‘I have a way of knowing these things,’ he said. He said, ‘Did you get the job?’ I says, ‘No. They didn’t, they didn’t want me.’ He said, ‘I knew they wouldn’t.’ I said, ‘How did you know?’ ‘Because I wrote them a letter asking them not to take you for the reasons I’m going to tell you’. I said, ‘I went through all of that, that interview you know and all that hassle for nothing.’ He said, ‘It’ll do you good for the rest of your life.’ Anyway, he was good of his word because when I came the top of the class in the end and he always said he would find me the best job outside Wolverton Works which was where everybody seemed to go and of course it was Wipac and they’d just started in Bletchley during the war. They came down from London and they’d just bought the company from the Americans because the Americans were convinced in 1942 that we were going to lose the war so they were going to sell the factory you see. Well he bought the factory and, well John’s father knows about this, he was the carpenter but anyway again I cycled in to Bletchley, had my interview and I was a trainee design draughtsman. That was my title at sixteen. 1946. And I carried on then doing night school and day release education to get my, first of all my ordinary national after two years and then another two years for my higher national which I got by the age of twenty and then I thought they’d forgotten about me ‘cause I got deferred from when I was eighteen to get, to do this education. Then Christmas came no buff envelope you know and I really thought they’d forgotten me and then on bloody New Year’s Day it came. Report at Padgate on the 15th of January 1951. I can remember getting my ticket from that little old railway station at Newport Pagnell which they stamped in it and it would take you all the way to Padgate you know and caught the train there early in the morning and Audrey, my wife, I was, we were courting then by about a year. That was my biggest regret was leaving here because I didn’t want to leave her. Anyway, I caught the train to Padgate. Well it wasn’t Padgate. What was it? The station near there anyway and when I got there there was a bunch of chaps like me with a little case all going to do their National Service and everybody was so polite. Even the bus driver. He was an air force man. Until we went through the gates at Padgate and then it all changed. Everybody shouting at you. All the rest. Anyway, we went to this little hut which had twenty two beds in it and we were told to find ourselves a bed space each and I picked one next to the chap in the corner who was from Derbyshire. We hadn’t been there long and the warrant officer came in. Typical you know, loud. ‘Gather around,’ he says. He said, ‘Anybody been in the ATC?’ Well I had. I’d been in the ATC for twelve months. I stuck my hand up didn’t I? He said, ‘Right you’re in charge of this lot,’ he said. ‘You have to march them down to the cookhouse, march them back, everywhere they go they march in order and you’re in charge. You’ve got to get them up by 6 o’clock in the morning to be on parade at seven’. And this went on. First of all we marched in our civvies and then we gradually got kitted out with our uniform and we got half a uniform while the trousers were being altered and that sort of thing. And one incident was marching them down to the cookhouse and we were doing it quite smart actually. I was on the outside and then I could see two officers about a hundred, well I thought, fifty yards away. Out of sight I thought. So we carried on. Suddenly I thought, ‘Airman.’ I knew that was me. I stood and saluted, Went over there and they said, ‘Do you realise you salute officers whenever you meet them?’ I said, ‘Yes but I thought you were too far away.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You just remember that for the future,’ he said. ‘By the way,’ he said, ‘You’d better take charge of your squad. They’ve just marched outside the main gate.’ The buggers were all walking out of Lincoln so I had to run after then and turn them around and come back again and they were all laughing like mad you know. And, but all I can remember about that cookhouse was they were the lowest of the low the chaps in charge there and they all shared an attitude as if they were small children, you know. I would have loved to go back and tell them what I thought of them there afterwards. Anyway, we’d only been there two weeks and we had a recruitment call at this camp cinema and we went down there and the officer commanding, Bomber Command was doing the speech from the platform and he said we’d run the armed forces down to below, down to Dunkirk level and the Cold War was coming on. So anybody, they wanted so many air force so anybody that had a school certificate or equivalent could volunteer to go down to Hornchurch and get selected. There were seventy of us actually but I was the first one to put my name down but not to do with flying. I just wanted more money because I started at Wipac at twenty eight, thirty bob a week so when I went in the, when I got called up for National Service I went to twenty eight bob a week. A shilling a day. Anyway, we went down to Hornchurch. We had all the tests over three days like spin you around and walk in a white line afterwards. Oh the decompression chamber was one where they lowered the compression until they gave you a writing pad with a pen until you went doing all this business. You were just about to pass out and then finish it off but went through all that which was a bit of a surprise. I had got a cold at the time and I was frightened to death I was going to fail ear nose and throat and go back to Padgate for another two or three weeks. Anyway, I got through it and the one thing I remember is that I was fast asleep. I went to bed early before 10 o’clock with aspirins to try and get rid of the cold. I’d just about got off to sleep and somebody came and shook me on the shoulder and it was him. He said, ‘Hey, hey George’. I said, ‘I’m not George.’ ‘Oh sorry.’ he said, ‘I thought you were somebody else.’ That was our first meeting. Anyway, after all the tests, on the Monday we were going back to Padgate and a squadron leader air gunner asked me up in his office and he spoke to me like a father and he said, ‘You see my badge?’ You know it was an emblem and I thought squadron leader air gunner, they were pre, he must be administration afterwards, after the war. He says, ‘If you go back to Padgate with your qualifications you’ll get an LAC electrician. Boring,’ he said. ‘Take my advice. We need three air gunners. He said, ‘In actual fact we need twelve aircrew anyway out of seventy but you were very close to being a pilot which is what you put down for.’ I said, ‘Well I didn’t want anything else.’ He said, ‘Well you take air gunner and you’ll have the time of your life.’ So I did what he said and that’s when I met these three. Those three. That was who I ended up with. We lost him. He was a Scotsman. Anyway, we get back to Padgate and they gave us the filthiest jobs they could find because they knew we were going to go to aircrew. In fact he got conjunctivitis. We were shovelling coal or something you know. Anyway, we went off to, we got posted to Leconfield after only about two or three weeks square bashing. At Leconfield they’d got Wellingtons and that was our air gunnery training where we used to go up in a Wellington and five air gunners would go up with it with a Polish pilot and we would have turns in the rear turret for about a quarter of an hour each with Mark 10 Spitfires attacking us with camera guns and we used to be, our cameras were taken to the crew room afterwards and shown what we scored and they did the same at their base which was further up the road and we got marked. Well I think I got sixty three percent which was very high for an air gunner. Anyway, we did the the course which took us to about May. Incidentally, in the war they trained air gunners within two weeks but in National Service we didn’t only have to learn how to fire the guns we had to know all the mechanism of it. A lot of theory and all that business just to give us something to do I think and then we got posted to Scampton to get crewed up to an aircraft which was the Lincoln. So we went down to Scampton and we had three months conversion to this aircraft. We got through air gunnery quite quickly but we, oh I must say this, when we got to Scampton we all went to this big room and everybody’s conversion about from any age, down from thirty five down to national servicemen. All aircrew trying to get a crew. Well that’s where my Yorkshire friend who was three years younger than me took charge and said, ‘Let’s go for the oldest pilot. He’ll look after us.’ It seemed like a good idea to me so I said, ‘Yeah ok.’ So I went and I sorted him out. ‘Yeah we need two air gunners,’ so we went with him and then we did the conversion and he was an old pilot at thirty four. Ernie Howard. He’d been flying Hurricanes before that. He was out in Japan. Not on Hurricanes but on other aircraft and of course having a Lincoln or a Lancaster was a bit heavy for him so he had to do more circuits and bumps than anybody else landing and taking off and my mate got unconscious hitting his head the roof with the tail coming down too heavy and actually after that they stopped air gunners being in the rear turret. Only the mid-upper could stop while they were doing circuits and bumps. Well we got through in the end and then we got posted. Now they needed one crew with 617 squadron which was the number one squadron you see and because he was the oldest and most experienced in years we went with him and that’s why we were the only two National Servicemen ever flew with 617 because there was nobody else and the aircrew just started for National Servicemen. Well I had the six months up till Christmas ’51 with 617 where I did about a hundred hours. We did various operations, you know, to test all the fighter bases in Europe. We always used to fly up close to the Iron Curtain to show our strength to the Russians but the thing was if we strayed over the border you were shot down. In fact one did get shot down but we didn’t. Anyway, it was all good fun to us. Anyway, we used to come back [pause] but one exercise I remember once we took off from Scampton, we got posted to Scampton from Leconfield from Scampton to Leconfield no to Binbrook. Binbrook in North Lincolnshire and I can always remember taking off from there in this big exercise with about twenty Lincolns taxiing around to take off and all the villagers were there waving and that and we went off, we flew off in the daylight because it was August. We flew out to the North Sea. Ten we flew and attacked Paris. Then we attacked Copenhagen. Then we flew down to Southern Germany, I forget the name and that finished it. We flew up the Iron Curtain and flew up in to the North Sea and we got in to formation then and we attacked London which was to drop these twenty five pounders on a practice bombs on a practice range beyond London. Well when we came over the North Sea every fighter plane in the British air force and the Americans was attacking us. It was full of aircraft. We would have been shot out before we reached the coast. I mean the Americans like I say a proper formal attack which they did, which the British air force did but the American used to come straight at you like that. Never had a hell of hitting you except colliding with you or something. Anyway, we flew past London. When we went over Clacton I think they must have thought war had been declared but we never heard anything about it. I suppose things were still going on after the war that they expected all these exercises. When we got down to Larkhill, that was it, the bombing range and we dropped our bombs and we called back to base. We were supposed to carry on down to Cornwall and we got called back to base because of thunderstorms and was I glad because I’d had nine hours sitting in a mid-upper turret which was like a bicycle seat. Was I sore, you know? And of course we were on oxygen in those things. We didn’t get air conditioning whatever so that was that experience. And then at Christmas they converted to Canberras, 617. I stopped on for a month on number 9 squadron. They needed an air gunner. John, my friend had already been posted to another base on Lincolns again and then I got posted down to Coningsby on B29 Fortresses. Whereas a crew of seven was on the Lincoln a crew of eleven was on the B29 and I was a side gunner. There were five air gunners on a B29. One on each side. On the top he was the master gunner, one in the tail and one in the front. Oh and there was a belly gunner as well but we didn’t usually use him because that was a bit uncomfortable laying down there but the master gunner could control all the three at the back with a switch. Talk about computers. This is 1952. It was all done mechanically and so if there was an aircraft attacking me on my side he could swing his guns around and take over my guns. Now if it swung over to the other side my gun would swing around, no, he would take over that one but the rear one he could do either way. That was good fun on a B29 because it was pressurised at ten thousand feet so we didn’t have oxygen masks. In fact we even had ashtrays there. Typical Americans. Whereas in a Lincoln of course it was bare and very uncomfortable. All the spars were showing and all the rest and you couldn’t smoke, you could set alight. Having said that the pilot often used to smoke. I was a non-smoker but the lovely smell of Player’s cigarettes coming down the fuselage was lovely but I never did it. Anyway, where were we? Oh at Coningsby we had an escape and evasion exercise that I remember quite well. We were taken out in a lorry, enclosed, dumped about forty miles away from the base anywhere when it was fully dark and given a rough map to find our way back to the base at Coningsby so I picked our navigator because I thought he would know the way with the stars which was a good idea because he did and it was a lovely moonlit night. We went straight across the fields but he was scared to death of animals. He’d come from London. Cows, horses he couldn’t stand them. We had to go all the way around the field just to avoid cows. Anyway, we went, we gradually got nearly halfway home. Daylight had come and we got a sugar beet out of the field to carve up to eat it because we were hungry and we decided to make for his married quarters in Coningsby, on the outskirts of Coningsby which backed on to the railway line. He said, ‘If we get to the railway line and follow the railway line in,’ and we got there about Saturday afternoon. His wife cooked us ham and eggs which was not allowed and then we went to bed for a couple of hours and then we said. ‘Look we’ve got to find our way to this base, the base camp,’ because the second exercise was to attack Coningsby camp which was three or four miles away. We’d got to find this base camp which we knew was on the outskirts of Coningsby so we told his wife to [form] ahead and we would follow behind and if, of course the army and police were looking for us with cars going everywhere if ever you saw an army guy just give a whistle which she did and we jumped over the nearest fence and hid. Well we escaped everybody in to there without being noticed by anybody and I said, ‘Well we’d better crawl over this field.’ It was getting a bit light. In the end I said, ‘This is bloody ridiculous,’ I said, ‘because we’ll have to get up to walk in.’ So we got up to walk in when we were only about a hundred yards away and we frightened them to death. They thought we were attacking them. Anyway, we got in there. There had a fire burning and we got a cup of coffee and at a certain hour, I think it was 5 o’clock we had to attack the camp. Again my friend said, he paved the way and we went together and we got in this field, went across it and there was a hedge and a ditch. Oh and that was it. Going across this if we got across there there was horses. Well he was frightened to death of these horses so he burst through the fence and there were two army guys sat on the other side having a fag and they chased after him and he got caught. Well they came back having another fag. I waited against this ditch and burst through the fence and ran like mad and thirty yards before they woke up to what happened and I was like a scared rabbit with people chasing me across this field. I scampered down this alleyway behind the married patch, found an outside loo with a door on it so I jumped in there, shut the door and I hear, they were coming along opening all the doors. In the end they opened the door and I give up. Now the interesting thing was I got very close. There was only two blokes out of God knows how many got into the camp and what they did they flagged a car down, a private individual and said, ‘Give us a lift to the camp and we’ll hide in the back seat,’ and when they were challenged by the police they opened the back door and ran and jumped through the fence. They had somebody standing every twenty yards along that perimeter. You could never get through normally but they were the only two who did it. Now my mother was always a means to this because egg and bacon was my standard meal actually and when they caught you they shoved you in this hangar with nothing in there except a keg of water and a cup but at the end they were frying egg and bacon and they were interrogating people to find out where the base camps were. Well I never told them but I must say the egg and bacon smelt very good but it’s amazing they found every base, all far, except ours. We were the fifth. And people actually said because they wanted to eat. And that was peacetime. Anyway, that’s, that’s a story I remember about Coningsby and also we was flying over the North Sea. We’d been Air Sea firing and as we flew over the Skegness they were playing, a band, a band was playing. We were so low we blew all the music off the people playing the music off. Well the pilot got severely reprimanded I can tell you. The one thing I remember about on the Lincoln was our pilot he did a stupid thing. We were going out on Air Sea firing and we were coming back. Flying low. So low that we levelled out with the slipstream the waves really and suddenly one of the outboard engines went and I thought that’s funny and then another one went and he said, ‘Crew prepare for ditching.’ I thought bloody hell I’m sitting in the mid upper turret, John’s down the back end but he came up. I don’t know, he was up there in about two seconds and he tapped me on the shoulder ‘cause I had a habit of going to sleep you know and I was off intercom and he, the only way he could converse, with cupping his hands in my ears and I said, ‘Is he serious?’ And he said, ‘Bloody well get down here,’ ‘cause we had to go and sit by the main spar, with our back to it and intercom and our head between our legs. We sat there and the engines was droning on, just two engines and then suddenly one burst in to life and the other one. Oh we’re ok. Then the captain said, ‘Sorry crew,’ he said, ‘Only practicing.’ He got really, he got really hauled over the coals because the rear gunner could have jumped out of the rear end with his life jacket. Anyway, that was one experience. Well when it came to the end of our period sure enough I went in on the 15th of January. I came out on the 15th of January. They tried hard to persuade us to go down to Hornchurch again to go as pilots but, one of our friends he did and the one I, he wished he had have done because he said that was the best. He loved it all. I thought, I was thinking of Audrey all the blooming time, trying to get home there and I thought it’s not going to be my life. A married patch, never knowing where you were going to live so I turned it down and I got demobbed on the 15th of Jan and started back at Wipac soon after because they had to give you your job back everywhere you know, if you did your National Service so I was in the air force, well I was at Wipac until ‘46 to 1951 and I was at Wipac from when I came out in 1953 to when I retired in 1994. Forty eight years. Eventually I became very quickly chief design on electrics which is quite interesting because Wipac came over from America and they only made magnetos for stationery engines but Jarman could see what was going to happen, that magnetos was going to die out so he started to go into lighting. The first thing we did was cycle dynamo set and I drew the lamp up for that which was copying a Swiss one you know. To get some idea of it. Then we went on to the first Bantam. We did the lighting for that in 1948 so I’d only been back two years by then. I can honestly say I drew up the headlight for the first Bantam and the rear light and really Wipac progressed from there until lighting took over from the magnetos but with Wipac the BSA Bantam we had to, we did do the magneto which the magneto generator ‘cause while it had a coil to get the energy for the spark, the ignition it also had two coils to produce lighting for the lights which were a bit dud because if your engine went down your lights went down with AC lighting. Anyway, they went, we then progressed into better lighting all the while I was at Bletchley. That was right up until 1960. By then we were on most of the motorcycle in one way or the other doing the full equipment and our biggest competitor of course was Lucas. But I was, I was destined to have the key job outside directorship was the sales manager for contracts with Ford and Austin Rover and places like that. Well I used to go out with this guy often because I was then technical liaison. I was in charge of the design office but also going out to meet the customers. Well that was a great help to him because I, because I was a designer I could understand the problems. Well I always hit it off with the buyers and the engineers because I was technical so when he retired and he was sixty seven and Jarman kept all his old buddies on there until they were sixty seven because he wanted to stop until he was eighty which he did. Anyway, he, he took three weeks holiday and Jarman said, ‘If he can have three weeks holiday he’s no good to me,’ he said. ‘He’s only allowed two weeks,’ he said. So he called me up in the office and told me this and said, ‘You can have his job.’ So, oh no I must tell you this when I was technical liaison I used to go up to the motor show and motor cycle show as technical liaison I was on the stand with customers coming aboard and we had two young ladies come up from Wipac the offices and one of the sales people, he was a lot older than me he’d invited them up to give them a day out. Well the night before they were we were on the stand, a guy named Chubb Dyer, just us two and at about 6 o’clock Michael Jarman had gone home because he was always on the stand and this little chap came there with a handlebar moustache and he was the advertising manager for the Daily Telegraph. He was a little air force man. He was only about five foot two tall and he said, ‘Is Michael here?’ ‘No he always goes at half past 5.’ ‘Oh dear.’ I said, ‘Can I help? Can I offer you a drink?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said. That’s what he came for really. ‘Well,’ I said, ‘We don’t have drinks on the stand but the bar is down there. I can, you can have what you like.’ So I went down there. Well I tried to keep up with his whiskies to start with. That was enough but when he’d gone we went back to the stand, shut it up, Chubb and I at 9 o’clock and then walked back to the hotel in Earl’s Court and we passed this Australian pub. All sort of noises were going on in there. I said, ‘Let’s go in there Chubb,’ because I’d had a few anyway. Soon as I walked through the door, ‘Here you are [cobber], first on the house,’ and it was a hell of a party, you know. I had to get home and Chubb left long before me and I could hardly walk and I staggered back to the hotel. How I got there I don’t know. Course I went to bed and I felt terrible in the morning. Consequently never get back on the stand till about 10 o’clock, half past ten and the sales manager then who actually Audrey used to work for as his secretary. He’d become sales manager. My boss. Well he didn’t like me. He liked Audrey of course. Anyway, he, he went back to Wipac and he told Jarman that I hadn’t behaved very well on the stand and was a disgrace to the company and all the rest so when I got back to work on a Monday I was hauled up to the office. Jarman sat there, having promised me this job, the big job, ‘I hear you’ve misbehaved yourself at the motor show I believe you’re not fit to represent the company.’ I told him the story. He’d made up his mind because at one time the reason he wanted me to go from Bletchley to Buckingham was to take charge of half the factory. The lighting side. So he said, ‘You’re not having that job I promised. You’re going in the factory and you’re going to be the manager of the lighting side.’ Well I was downcast. When I got back to my office they’d taken all my office, all my equipment out, dumped it out in the factory in an office out on the outskirts and anyway it took me three days to get over it and I thought well if this is going to be it I’m going to be it I’m going to make a go of this you know and I arranged the office and it was a big office. The foremen had their desks, you know, three foremen you know, There was two women on doing the processing, the paperwork and I had big charts on the wall of every, every employee. What they were getting, what they were building that week you know and what line they was on. It was all in control and I used to stop there until half past seven at night to fill it all in every week after Thursday. We used to plan the next week positive what we’d build and the next week tentative. And the guy that was in the meeting he used to make all the notes ‘cause the main thing you’d got to supply to everything was a reflector which was pressed, lacquered and aluminised. That was the key factor and, well I made a real success of it. In fact I was lucky again, I’ve always been lucky. Our biggest contract was Ford. The first one was the front turn signal lamp for the Cortina and we were building up to two thousand five hundred pairs a day but we gradually built up to that because when I took over they’d just started. I had forty people under me to start with and I had a hundred and thirty when I finished. In the year. Tha’s how we progressed so the bonus was very good because of the increase in production and I’d come to about August again. I was called up to the office and there was Jarman. He said, ‘Sit down.’ He said, ‘You’ve done a pretty good job,’ he said. He said it very reluctantly. I want you to take Barry’s job, that’s when he said, ‘He’s had three weeks holiday. I don’t need him.’ So he said you can have that again. Now I didn’t say, ‘Thank you very much Mr Jarman,’ as everybody used to almost get on their knees with Jarman. He ran it like a ship you know. I said, ‘I’m not so sure.’ He said. ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘Well you told me that was a great job out there. It was like running a factory without having the finance,’ and I said, ‘I built it up until there’s what a hundred and thirty people and it’s all going so smoothly.’ He said, ‘Are you telling me you don’t want the job?’ I said, ‘I didn’t say that,’ I said. ‘You’ve been like a father to me,’ I said. I was creeping then. I said, ‘Is it more money?’ He said, ‘Of course it is.’ I said, ‘Is it a company car?’ He said, ‘Of course it is.’ ‘I’ll take the job.’ I got more credentials by that interview from him, with being like that. Anyway that job went equally as well because I made sure I saw every engineer, every buyer, every inspector every visit I made. I was out three or four days a week. In fact that same sales director that put the black on me for a job he wrote me a memo once, I’ve still got it, about, I don’t know how many days in the month I’d spent out entertaining, you know, lunches and that and I wrote back and I said, ‘Well look at the contracts we’ve got.’ And believe me in those days and I still think it goes at least with my daughter’s business which she’s in events you wouldn’t get a contract with Ford Motor Company unless a buyer got to know you personally and got a trust in you first and trust in the company. Well I used to, I gave them a game of golf. I was always, I was known as Mr Lunch Atkins because I never went anywhere without lunch ‘cause I soon found out if I wanted to go to Austin Rover and wanted to see the chief buyer he’d give me an interview at say 11 o’clock or twenty past ten. That would be in the interview room but if I said, ‘What about 12 o’clock and have some lunch?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said. Well I’d get two hours then and then he’d get, with a drink or two he’d take me to meet the engineers and everybody and it all worked and I actually got the first contract out of Austin Rover had only ever been given on lighting to anybody other than Lucas because, that’s interesting, Lucas had a contract with them from before the war when there was depression when Lucas supplied their goods to Austin without payment to keep them going and they said they’d never buy any electrical good except from Lucas and that was carried on until the 60s or 70s. So there you are. We got, we gradually got contracts all the way through until the big one at Ford was three thousand pairs a day and it was the transit wheel on the transit van. Now, you can imagine they got damaged very often because they were very vulnerable to collision and the spares business was bigger than the oe. We were supplying Southampton and Ghent in Belgium so we were a hundred percent sourced but we only just saved that twice by me going over to Germany with the new director of, because Wipac was sold in 1987 and the new director there twice I took him over there and we talked our way into keeping the business ‘cause I said we designed the thing in keeping with Ford and what they wanted to do was to take the business over to Poland which they did eventually and well then Wipac got sold again in 1992 having built the factory that you see now where Tesco’s was. You remember the old Tesco factory don’t you? What it was like? And I didn’t know it but it was a five year contract, his, him and his directors and they sold to [?]. Now, the new, that was a new forty year old director, managing director. I, of course was sixty four but he still let me do the job the same way for these eighteen months I was with him but I liked the job. Of course I did. I was out most days and it was easy but the thing was our biggest contract on this rear lamp was in Ford spares in Spain. Now I’d been over there twice and made great friends with these buyers. Took them out to lunch and had my photograph taken with them you know. They took a photograph and my arms around them but saying it’s all good but if anything ever went wrong on supplies they didn’t phone the factory they phoned me at home and I had to go and sort it out but that was it and then when the new guy was going to take over from me I said, ‘We’ve got to go and see these people in Spain.’ He thought oh no Atkins wants a freebie, you know, over in Spain and the MD I think thought the same. I said, ‘If we don’t go we’ll lose it.’ Anyway, I left. I went to see the MD and I said, ‘I don’t want to leave.’ I said, ‘Why don’t you let me look after your big contracts. Come in two or three days a week because the people outside don’t know you and your directors because you’ve only been here eighteen months but they know me. I’ve been here forty years or more.’ He said, ‘Yes Glenn,’ he said, ‘You’ve done a wonderful job but you’re way of doing business is not the modern way.’ And I said, ‘What is the modern way?’ He said, ‘Well the modern way they’ve got a telephone on the desk and they’ve got a computer.’ We’d just gone on to computers. ‘They don’t need to go anywhere.’ I said, ‘You’ll never get business with the Ford and people like that unless they build a trust up. They know me but they don’t know you people at all.’ So he said, ‘No. That’s all they need. The telephone and the computer.’ Within eighteen months of him telling, of me leaving they lost that big contract with Spain which was a fifth of the company’s turnover. Fifteen million a year we were doing and he lost his job. I’d have loved to have met him to say about the way you should do a job. What’s that got to do with the air force? Nothing. If I’ve bored you I’m sorry.
CB: No. No. It’s absolutely fascinating and there is a link with these things on the relationships you formed in crews.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Tell us about the crewing up. So you went to the oldest man.
GA: Yes.
CB: What was his reaction?
GA: He just needed two air gunners and two of the young likely lads he got. We lost, on our conversion we lost the younger navigator because we were bombing practice and he made a mistake and bombed the quadrant and we were summoned back to base because they thought they were going to hit the caravan which where the people were spotting and he got, and we got, replaced the navigator by the oldest navigator who was Jock Graham and he used to treat us National Servicemen as though he was our father. I know when we passed out he took us all down to Lincoln for a booze up you know but it was all interim you see then the Lanc, the Lincoln because like I said by the Christmas they were going over to Canberras and I suppose the air pilot and the navigator were two oldest they probably went, you know. They never converted.
CB: So why did some crews go to Canberras and some of them on to - ?
GA: Well it was a different kettle of fish weren’t it ‘cause they only had a pilot and a navigator on a Canberra so no gunners, no engineers, no signallers.
CB: So you changed squadron to go to -
GA: No, it stopped.
CB: The B29s.
GA: Yeah. They stopped at 617.
CB: Yeah.
GA: The Canberras until the V bombers came in.
CB: Yeah. 0k. So, tell us about the B29 Washington. What was that like?
GA: Well -
CB: When you got into that?
GA: It was lovely. Like a civil aircraft really. Beautifully equipped and there was a pressurised and there was a tunnel about that diameter between, went over the bomb bays that linked the pilot area with the air gunner area at the back and we had a navigator, a radar operator sat with us. He was in the middle, a gunner each side and one up there and we had a little cooking stove at the back for boiling water so we used to boil beans and ham and egg in this thing. We weren’t allowed to go through that tunnel because if we got stuck and the air pressure went forward or back you’d go out there like a bullet out of a gun you see so we used to throw these hot tins of soup whatever it was at least the length of this house and he used to catch it in a sack. I remember that.
CB: So whose job was it to do the cooking?
GA: Oh one of us gunners. Yeah. All we did was drop a can in this hot water tank. But the worst job I had to do, well we took it in turns, was in the unpressurised area. That was the very back. There was a door in to there but when we came in to land there was a stationery engine in there, a V8 engine which was covered in frost because it was and we had to take it in turns to go and start it after we were taxiing, flying around to land because that was to keep the batteries up for when we landed and the engines went down in power. Now getting in there, freezing cold, being bumped about I used to feel sick I must admit but you just had to do it. You got covered in hoar frost. You just had to pray it would go and it did. That was another thing.
CB: So the rear gunner was in his own, was he pressurised after ten thousand feet?
GA: I’m not sure.
CB: Because you are saying that there is an envelope which is the only reason, only way pressurisation can work.
GA: Yeah.
CB: You can’t have people coming in and out.
GA: Do you know I can’t remember? We never flew with a gunner in the rear anyway.
CB: Why was that?
GA: I don’t know why. We never did.
CB: So you talked about the master gunner controlling all the guns.
GA: Yeah.
CB: How did that work exactly because the people who were manning those guns, the forward and the rear -?
GA: Well we had a control for air guns but he had a control that would override that one and take it over. His own special one.
CB: So these guns were what calibre? They were .5s. They weren’t cannon were they?
GA: No.
CB: Point 5 machine guns.
GA: The Lincoln had got two cannons.
CB: Oh had you?
GA: In the turret. Yeah well that was the difference between the Lincoln and the Lancaster.
CB: Yeah.
GA: Was the mid-upper turret and the radar dome and about six feet on the wing span but the, those two twenty millimetre cannons on the Lancaster we had four 505s in the rear and when we went on air sea firing the whole aircraft used to shake with these twenty millimetres and I can remember it was at Scampton and we were being tested to see how good we were but I used a full magazine of these 20mm cannons. The only one. A complete magazine. That was sheer luck because it was the armourer that loaded it not me and they made a particular note of that because one thing you couldn’t do was if you got a shell stuck in the breech you weren’t allowed to take it out because they’d had a case or two cases of gunners trying to do that and it exploded in their face so we just, the reason they were pleased that I’d shot the whole lot was because I never had a breech block. I didn’t have a breach block. Yeah.
CB: So the .5 machine guns were belt fed.
GA: Yeah.
CB: The 20 millimetre was with -
GA: No. They were belt fed.
CB: They were belt as well.
GA: Yeah.
CB: You said a magazine you see so I wondered whether -
GA: Well they called it a magazine.
CB: It was a clip on magazine was it?
GA: Yeah. No. No, it was a belt.
CB: And then the belt came out of a tray at the bottom? How was it, how was it fed?
GA: Well at least they retrieved the cases which in the old days they used to file them away didn’t they? I can’t remember.
CB: That’s ok.
GA: You know I went back to, with a friend of mine about five years ago to Duxford and there’s a B29 there and we found it and I had a photograph taken somewhere.
CB: And they let you get in it did they?
GA: Me standing behind it.
CB: Well we can have a bit of a look at that a bit later can’t we?
[pause]
GA: I don’t know.
CB: Let me just ask you about the OTU.
GA: All I can say is when I went back to see.
CB: Yes.
GA: The B29 after all those years.
CB: Yeah.
GA: I couldn’t find my way in because we used to have an entrance near the blisters.
CB: Oh did you?
GA: A side entrance.
CB: Yeah.
GA: A trap door on the side as the rest of the crew got up the front. What they’d done they’d sealed the door up.
CB: Oh.
GA: In the museum.
CB: Yeah. So people didn’t get in.
Other: Some water. He’s made you a coffee has he?
CB: Yes thank you. Won’t be long.
Other: Or did you make it?
GA: Of course I remembered.
CB: I’m stopping just -
[machine paused]
CB: Back at the OTU you described earlier about the training, the crewing up but what were the tasks you had to do because different members of the crew had to do different things but everybody worked together?
GA: Oh used to go on different operations bombing, bombing places and targets. We did certain air sea firing. We never did air to air firing.
[conversation in the background]
GA: We only had camera guns for air to air.
CB: Yes. I see.
GA: We did that for three months I think.
CB: Yes.
GA: But we was always with the crews when they were being tested for signalling or pilot or navigator. Not always together.
CB: Right. Yeah.
GA: So what they did I don’t know except the circuits and bumps.
CB: But you did cross countries.
GA: Oh yeah. A lot.
CB: What about fighter affiliation? Tell us about that.
GA: Oh we took off and we had Mark 10 Spitfires attacking us from the station further up but at Scampton we didn’t do any of that. We did it all at Leconfield.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
GA: Air to air.
CB: At Leconfield, yeah.
GA: And when we were at Scampton, you were talking about OTU well we just used to fly really. We always used to have to, I was the main lookout for the rear end being in the mid-upper and that was, thankfully the rear gunner used to wake me up occasionally.
CB: But just to get a grip of how did the fighter affiliation work? Because the British technique and the American techniques were different. Could you just describe those? So with these Spitfires what was their technique?
GA: They used to fly alongside at a range over six hundred metres and we had a sight that had, what used to have like four balls on a screen in a circle and that by your feet used to adjust the range because you used to get the Spitfire attacking aircraft wingspan, put on the thing and that you adjusted it for that distance with this there. That was done by your feet back that way and then you were steering the turret that way aiming it at the Spitfire with the centre being at the attacking aircraft and you would follow it all the way down keeping the wingspan between you and he had the same thing on the Spitfire actually to attack me but they used to fly alongside, set the speed of your aircraft and you set the speed of their aircraft and then you’d do that one and double back and come up that way.
CB: Come in from behind.
GA: Yeah. So that by the time they levelled out they were shooting straight at the fuselage which you see is far more easier than if you’re going that way and trying to hit that way. That was it.
CB: So, so at the end of the sortie then what happened?
GA: We’d go back to our crew room with a screen and they could fit, your film would go on and they’d show the attack of the fighter attacking and what you’d achieved.
CB: So how soon would they have the film processed and ready to view?
GA: It seemed to be within the day.
CB: It wasn’t within an hour or two.
GA: It could have been. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
GA: I think it was. Now the same thing happened to the Spitfire pilot. He was at the one up the road. About ten miles up the road.
CB: Right.
GA: Can’t remember the name. Began with D.
CB: Dishforth. Dishforth.
GA: Yes.
CB: Right on the A1.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Right. So they, what, when you looked at the camera gun film who was with you to make the assessment?
GA: Oh the training officer. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
GA: Oh yeah they, two blokes had to be beside you while they studied your film.
CB: And how did they make an assessment and feedback of that?
GA: I don’t know.
CB: What did they say?
GA: I can’t remember them saying anything except they gave me sixty three percent. I suppose whether you wandered off and that sort of thing but you see that’s where that air gunner that told me to go for gunnery down at Hornchurch he said the next best thing to being the pilot was to be the rear gunner because you’re using your feet and you’re using your hands and you’re supposed to give a commentary to the pilot about on you’re doing. I mean when the attacking aircraft was coming in you had to be constantly telling the pilot where he was and all that.
CB: So it was a running commentary was it?
GA: Yeah.
CB: And that was your job. Not the rear gunner.
GA: Well we both had to do it.
CB: Right.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Ok. And we’re now in the early 50s so as fighter evasion what would be the tactic?
GA: We never did any. We never trained for that.
CB: Did you do corkscrews?
GA: No. You see I was told they had more fatalities through accidents than they ever did through enemy action. Did you know that?
CB: Well they lost a lot.
GA: Yeah.
CB: And in the B29 what was the manoeuvrability of that like compared with the Lancaster?
GA: I don’t know. We didn’t have to evade much, you see. We just flew dead steady. We did a bit of twisting and turning with the Lincoln.
CB: The Lincoln I meant to say. Yeah. Ok. Stop there.
[machine paused]
GA: It was just like wartime.
CB: So when you’d come back from a sortie -
GA: Yeah but before -
CB: You’d land the aircraft -
GA: Before we went out -
CB: Yes.
GA: We all used to go out in the big assembly room.
CB: Right.
GA: And then they would describe what was going to happen and then we would have to go. Particularly I remember the one at Binbrook because on the Lincoln we didn’t know when we were going to take off and we didn’t know where we were going. Only the pilot knew that so his briefing was separate. We just had the general picture but we didn’t know what time we were taking off or what targets we were going towards but we’d all be debriefed afterwards when we got back. I know it was peacetime but they still did it.
CB: So what was the process, the format of the debriefing because you’d got seven crew? How did they deal with that?
GA: Well they’d ask what aircraft attacked you, incidentally we had, and I don’t know if it’s there.
[pause]
CB: The aircraft recognition.
GA: We had to know all of those.
CB: Yes.
GA: To know what their wingspan was.
CB: Right. That’s interesting. Yeah. So part of your ground school was aircraft recognition.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Particularly, it’s got folded there, particularly for you as gunners.
GA: Yes. Most definitely. Yeah.
CB: So -
GA: 1951 that [laughs].
CB: So here you are at the debrief. Was there a sequence or was everybody speaking ad hoc? In other words did the pilots start the debrief? How did that work on the, when you were debriefed after the sortie?
GA: I can’t remember.
CB: Ok.
GA: What I was going to say was -
[machine pause]
CB: So looking at your logbook your flying was roughly two hundred hours daylight and two hundred hours.
GA: Yeah.
CB: In the night.
GA: Or put it another way. A hundred hours daylight and a hundred hours at night on Lincolns and then the same on B29s.
CB: Which did you prefer? Day or night?
GA: Day. We always wanted to fly at about five thousand feet where it didn’t matter about being pressurised.
CB: Was pressurised uncomfortable?
GA: Yes you had the mask on all the time and I remember getting the Lincoln pilot to fly over Newport Pagnell where my house was, as low as he could. My mother swears she heard it go over the house ‘cause she was hanging the clothes out. This noisy aircraft.
[machine paused]
CB: So you started on the Lincoln and then you went to the Washington.
GA: Yeah.
CB: The B29.
GA: Yeah.
CB: How did you find that? Did you think that that was a better aircraft in terms of what it could do or -
GA: I think it was. Yes, definitely. It could fly higher. A lot higher.
CB: Because it was pressurised.
GA: Yeah. I mean twenty two thousand feet was about it for the Lincoln. Incidentally the Lincoln would maintain height on two engines. It could land on one engine. I don’t think you’d be able to do that with a B29.
CB: Oh really. And in -
GA: But you know they lost more aircraft through take-off and landing than people thought. The nearest we came we was taking, in fact how the Lincoln got in the air with a ten ton, ten ton bomb I don’t know because we used to limp off the tarmac and we were once, one engine went and the wing dipped just as we were clearing the hedge at the bottom of the runway and we took a bit of the hedge out with the wing tip. We could go like that. It hadn’t got the power with twenty pound practice bombs to get up quickly whereas the B29 like the modern aircraft of today was in the air quite quickly. Incidentally, I went to, I talk about crashing I mean we lost one aircraft while we were training at Leconfield. One of our aircraft got shot down by the Russians because it wandered over the Iron Curtain but it never got in the newspapers.
CB: Didn’t it?
GA: No.
CB: No. How did they shoot it down?
GA: We don’t know.
CB: Was it a fighter or was it ground fire is what I meant?
GA: I don’t know. All we were told, so and so had crashed and the same thing with the B29. A plane coming in you know how flat Lincoln is but there are hills and a B29 of our squadron was coming in in fog and he misread the altimeter and he ploughed into the hillside and the worst thing I ever did was with my friend, another air gunner, I said, ‘Let’s go on my motorbike and see the crash,’ and I wish I I’d never gone because all that was left was charred metal from the middle and the rear turret had gone and it had bounced along and hit, ended up in the hedge and you still had the meat in there where they’d cut the pilot, the air gunner out and the smell of that octane fuel. I could still smell it for years.
CB: What happened to the crew that was shot down over East Germany? Were they killed or -
GA: We never heard any more about it.
CB: You don’t know if they got back or not.
GA: No. Because everything were so secret in those days. I know that you know because of my draughting experience.
CB: Yeah.
GA: In that interim period of about December January the officers got to know about it and they were doing, there was a plan for navigation. I couldn’t understand it but I was converting these drawings to engineering drawings and I got special relief to go and work on that instead of flying on the aircraft for about two or three weeks.
CB: What was the, what was the purpose of the task?
GA: It was navigation. Something to do with navigation. Obviously an instrument or something.
CB: Right.
GA: It was quite complicated.
CB: Ok. Thank you. Well that’s been really interesting Glenn.
GA: Are you sure?
CB: A real insight into what happened after the war and how some of the things continued, were perpetuated but others were quite different and the more cautious approach to flying.
GA: Well I think it fills the spot particularly with 617 between the Cold War period until the V bomber came in. So all through the 50s until 1960 when National Service ended. Well we were only needed weren’t we, until that period.
CB: Yeah. Was 617 employed on special tasks for precision bombing in your time or just general bombing?
GA: The Lawrence Minot trophy which was a Bomber Command trophy every year and 617 squadron won it every year. That’s all I can say.
CB: Right. Thank you.
[machine paused]
CB: In terms of ranks. In your training you were an LAC were you? And then you became what?
GA: As soon as we went to, we got a special badge when we were on training and then we got this after our training.
CB: Your brevvy.
GA: Yeah.
CB: And what rank were you when you got your brevvy?
GA: And that, that was -
CB: Right A wing. Yeah. That went on your sleeve.
GA: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So what rank were you when you qualified as an air gunner?
GA: Sergeant. A signaller, the two air gunner and the engineer were sergeants. Sergeant air crew which meant we get extra money for flying pay you see. In fact that’s interesting. As I say I got twenty eight bob a week like everybody did when they went in. As soon as I volunteered and got accepted to go for training I got two pound fifty a week and then after you got selected for a squadron, 617, I got about four pound a week and the last six months I got seven pound a week which was beyond my wildest dreams. In fact when I went for my job back at Wipac I went to see the chief, the chief engineer and we talked about everything and I said, ‘Well what am I going to earn then?’ He said, ‘What do you want then mate?’ And I suddenly thought I’d been getting seven pound a week. I said, ‘Eight pound a week.’ He said, ‘Yes alright.’ Within three months, when I got in the drawing office I found I’d joined the union because we were at eight pound a week we were about two pound under the union rate. So I actually joined a union for a short period and when Jarman who had all these ideas for me right from the start because did I tell you that’s how we bought the house.
CB: No. Tell us.
GA: Well, I was, I’d just got married and we got half a house in Fenny Stratford at eighteen shillings a week rent and rates. It was subletted by Wipac from a landlady and I made it into quite habitable. Mind you there was an outside toilet, tin bath in the, hanging in the shed, it had a little garden at the back that I made into something special because the chap who had the upstairs he didn’t want the garden. He worked at Wipac as well but anyway having had this period of my first married life from 1954 he called me up to the office one day in 1957 and said, ‘You know I’m building a new factory at Buckingham?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well it should be open by 1960.’ He said, ‘I want you to go over there. Be one of the first to go over there to eventually charge, be in charge of one side of the factory.’ Not straightaway but you know. So he said to me, ‘Have you ever thought about buying a house?’ I thought, I didn’t say, ‘Not on your salaries,’ you know. Actually I think we’d moved with the union up to about fifteen pound a week but anyway, he sent me over, he said, ‘I’ve fixed it up. You can go over to Buckingham, see the builder Lewis Pollard, you can see the town clerk which was Tony [?],’ he’s still around, retired of course, he’ll be in his 90s. His own legal guy Martin Athay. ‘Go and see all those and they’ll sort you out with a house,’ and he was, he would put me onto eighteen pound a week in the Autumn. Buy it because a house on Highlands Road was two thousand five hundred plus three hundred pounds if you had a garage built separately. Well I came over to Buckingham and Lewis Pollard took me to Highlands Road and I don’t know whether you know it but until 1957 they never built any private houses after the war. It was all council houses. Government decree. So Highlands Road was the first housing, private housing estate built here after the war. He took me up here and there was the one next near finished the one after that was this one and was finished and lived in and the next one whose funeral I went to yesterday that was there, the one that Lewis offered me for two thousand five hundred but if I had a garage three hundred. Well in the meantime I was taking Practical Householder magazine and there was a plan for this house before the kitchen extension, before the conservatory and before the front porch extension but the rest of it, this was the kitchen, that was the lounge diner and there was an outside porch there but with the dormer windows it was my dream. It looked something beautiful. So I went in to see Lewis the following week and I said, ‘Look you can build that for two thousand five, nine hundred with the garage. This house has got the garage built in. How much can you do that for if I do all the outside decorating and all the inside decorating and you leave all the kitchen bare.’ He came up with three thousand pounds. Anyway, so I went to Wipac on the Monday and he said, ‘How did you get on?’ I told him the story I’ve told you. He said, ‘What is this house like then?’ I spread the plans out. Incidentally and the plans were three pounds fifty and he looked at it and he said –
[Phone starts ringing. Recording stops]
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AAtkinsG160929
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Interview with Glenn Atkins
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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eng
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01:25:42 audio recording
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Pending review
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Chris Brockbank
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2016-09-29
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Glenn Atkins was born in Newport Pagnell and was called up for National Service in 1951. He was involved in exercises to test the defences of Europe during the Cold War. When he was released from National Service he returned to his former company where he remained until he retired.
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Royal Air Force
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Julie Williams
44 Squadron
617 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-29
Lincoln
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/8788/PKirbyH1511.2.jpg
f2f26de792cac70f6b6c69e353b3a563
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/8788/AKirbyH150710.1.mp3
415d0a343bc572167309ea13248509d0
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Title
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Kirby, Harold
Harold V A Kirby
H V A Kirby
Harold Kirby
H Kirby
Description
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Nine items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Harold Kirby (1923 - 2022, 1637087 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-07-10
2015-09-21
2016-06-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Kirby, H
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Warrant Officer Harold Kirby 1637087 was born in Kilbourne, Loncon in 1923, his job after leaving school was in the accounting department at London Electric Supplies. He initially tried to volunteer for the RAF but failed the medical, at that time. He was subsequently drafted in 1942. Skill training started with training as a Flight Mechanic, but during this was asked to volunteer to rain as a Flight Engineer. His first posting was as an Aircraft Fitter at No.460 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, although only for 6 months.
After Flight Engineer training at St Athan and then training on the Short Stirling and then the Lancaster with 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe, the first solo flight for the crew, the port landing gear would not lock, during the landing the gear collapsed, although there were no injuries.
First operational unit was No.467 Squadron at RAF Waddington a mainly Australian Squadron, the crew were here for July and August 1944, One operation 3/4th August 1944, to the V1 storage site at Trossy Saint Maximin had another bomber flying above their aircraft and dropping their bombs, one going through the wing, narrowly missing vital structures, this resulted in a gear up landing, due to hydraulic loss, but again there were no injuries resulting.
He was then posted along with the crew to No 97 Squadron, based at RAF Coningsby a pathfinder squadron, tasked to mark the targets for other aircraft,
In total two tours were completed before the end of the European war, after finishing as a Flight Engineer, Harold trained as a RADAR mechanic, before leaving the RAF.
Andy St.Denis
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NM: So, this is a recording from Harold Kirby in Pinner, my name is Nigel Moore doing the interview, and this interview is taking place on July the 10th at Mr Kirby’s home in Pinner. So, Mr Kirby, thanks for doing this, and can you tell me something about your life growing up and life before the RAF?
HK: Yes, I’m, I was born in Kilburn, and my parents moved out to Kingsbury when I was eight years old, and I went to Kingsbury County School there. At the time we moved, 1931, it was all countrified there and we had to walk across fields to Burnt Oak to, for shopping, but soon got built up. So that was my early days, and then I got married after the war and lived in Kingsbury for a while until we moved out to Pinner in 1960, that’s right.
NM: So, what about your upbringing and childhood and pre-service life as a youth?
HK: I was not very outgoing at the time, but I had a special friend, Tony, who was more outgoing and he involved me in lots of activities, but I can’t say that I did very much exciting at those days, although we did used to cycle ‘round quite a lot, both of us. So, that was, up to the war, really. [Pause] and, certainly –
NM: Okay. How did you come to join the RAF?
HK: Ah, well, I, my two school friends and myself wanted to fly with the RAF, they were accepted but I was turned down on medical grounds, they became navigators and went off, and then I was called up in, ah, August 1942, and was first, after the initial square-bashing, went to, was posted to Halton, to train as a flight mechanic, one of the first inputs of conscripts to be trained at Halton, yeah. Well, after I’d passed out as a flight mechanic, I had sufficient marks to go straight on to do a fitter’s airframe course, also at Halton, and during the time there, I, we were asked if we would volunteer to become flight engineers, they were getting a bit short, which I did, passed the medical that time, and, but initially, I was posted as a fitter to 460 Squadron, which was at Binbrook, although initially, we and three others went to place called Brayton and found that the 460 Squadron had moved to Binbrook two weeks earlier [slight laugh] but eventually, we were taken there over, stayed there overnight and then taken to Binbrook, and I was there for a bit, six months, mainly repairing aircraft, until I got a call to go to the Saint Athan to train as a flight engineer. I, after I’d passed out from there, I was posted to heavy conversion unit at [pause] Winthorpe and I was, I crewed up with an otherwise all-Australian crew, and one thing that happened there was – this was on Stirlings – on the first pilot’s [pause] flight by himself without an instructor, we couldn’t get the wheels down, and it was my job to wind them down, which I did successfully, but the port undercarriage wouldn’t lock, so we were asked to fly to Woodbridge, you heard of it? It was placed where they had especially long, long runways and also facilities for dealing with crashed aircraft. Well, we duly got, would crashed, Woodbridge, crashed, ah, landed, but the port undercarriage gave way and we spun ‘round, no-one was hurt, and the instructor came down immediately and made my pilot fly back. Other than that, that, everything was okay, and we went to the Lancaster flying school, and eventually landed up at 467 Squadron, which was then at Wadd – Waddington. The, ah, yes, on the first operation, we were coming back, and the rear gunner suddenly shouted ‘Corkscrew!’, and the pilot immediately took action, dived, and a twin-engined aircraft overtook us and flew off in the distance, we didn’t see it again, but he initially, he shot at us, and a bullet went through the rear gunner’s turret and his clothing and cut off his heating supply and he was very aggrieved about that because it got a bit cold! [slight laugh] Anyway, we got back safely. Then, on the [pause] yes, the eleventh operation, it was a daylight one at Trossy Saint Maximin, the, it was a storage site for V1s, and we had done the bombing round and the mid upper shouted, ‘There’s a Lanc above us just opened his bomb doors!’ Before we could do anything, we heard two thumps, one was louder than the other, and a bomb went through the port wing, took away the undercarriage and the – shut off the engine, so I, well, I, I had to keep a look-out because the, I’m sure the wing was mov – waving more than it should do, anyway, we, with three engines, we got left behind. At one stage, this was over France, the rear gunner said ‘There’s two single-engined aircraft approaching from the starboard quarter,’ he said to the upper gunner, ‘I’ll take the first, you take the second,’ but seconds later, which seemed hours, he said, ‘It’s alright, they’re Spitfires,’ [slight laugh] and one of them escorted us back to the coast and we decided, or at least the pilot decided, to land at Wittering, which, at that time, had a grass runway, and we’d landed there and he got told off for making a big groove in their run – runway. So, but that was the, really, the main thing that happened there. Then, on the sixteenth operation, or after the sixteenth operation, we were posted to 97 Squadron, the Pathfinder Squadron. After the war, I had some correspondence from a pilot’s son, this was well after the war, and in it was a cutting from a newspaper which a pilot had a long [?] talk with a reporter, and he said then, whether it was true or not, that he actually volunteered to become Pathfinders because of the increase in pay, but I don’t know if that’s true or not, but all the crew joined him and we went on to the 97 Squadron, but nothing really much happened there, we were quite successful in getting back what with [?] the time, and in the end we managed forty-four operations altogether. [Pause] Well, after the war finished, we were sent on end-of-tour leave because we’d practically finished the second tour, and, but the rest of the crew were all recalled before I was, to go off back to Australia, so I never really had a chance to say a proper goodbye, but after that [unclear], they were, we were given opportunities to choose what we wanted to do; I chose a radar mechanic’s course because it was a nice long one and sounded interesting, that was at Yatesbury, and I eventually completed the course, was posted to West Ruislip, where I was put in an office and didn’t any, do any radar mechanicking! [laughs] And, but I was fortunate that I was able to live out, live at home, ‘cause my parents at Kingsbury, and commuted until I got my demob, which was six weeks or so later, I’m not sure of the actual date, and so, that is my war service.
NM: Okay, can I take you back to your days in Halton?
HK: Yes.
NM: Tell me a little bit about your days training as a fitter.
HK: Well, we were lost in [?], up the hill on one side of the main road, and every morning, we walked down, or marched down, to the, the workshops on the other side of the main road. That, that was about all, except that there was one amusing instance; because there, there were no youngsters there at the time, they had some drums which they thought could be used, and they asked for volunteers to train as, as drummers to help us down the march. It, they got instructions, that went off quite reasonably until the instructor thought, the, the bandmaster or whoever it was, thought we could practise by ourselves. Now, one of the chaps was actually a drummer in a small group, and he decided to invent a, a rhythm, which wasn’t the one that we were taught, and it went – oh, how did it go? Anyway, it was the first time that we did it, we, it was a conga rhythm [laughs], I think it’s the first and only time that a squad’s been conga’d down to the workshops! [laughs] But, apart from that, Halton was quite reasonably enjoyable.
NM: And was it while you were at Halton, or was it while you were at Binbrook on 460 Squadron, that you volunteered to become a flight engineer?
HK: It was while we were at Halton we were asked if we would volunteer, yes.
NM: So you first of all went off to Binbrook on 460 Squadron?
HK: Hmm?
NM: You first of all went to 460 Squadron?
HK: 460 Squadron, yeah.
NM: At Binbrook. Tell me a little bit about, about Binbrook.
HK: Well, then again, it was for, fortunately a, a peacetime station, so we were quite comfortably billeted. Well, that, that, of course, was an Australian squadron as well, so I, I did quite well in knowing the Australians. Each morning, went to the hangars and carried out any repairs and inspections that were necessary, quite enjoyed that, really. Yes, there was a sergeant there, Australian sergeant, apparently he was colour blind, and he, he was telling me that initially, he, he was asked to put camouflage on an aircraft, and when his instructor saw it, he said ‘If you could see that as I could see it, you’d have a fit!’ [Laughs] Yeah, but that, that, sorry, he was quite, quite a good chap [unclear], but –
NM: So, you went from Binbrook to Saint Athans to train -
HK: That’s right, yes.
NM: As a flight engineer.
HK: That’s right.
NM: Describe your training.
HK: I, actually, initially, there are few of us, instead of given instructions on a Lancaster, we were started to give us instructions on a York aircraft, but I think it was decided that that sort of job would be given to people who’d already been flying, so we then transferred and did the rest of the course on, on Lancasters. It was [pause] well, was quite enjoyable, I can’t say that there were any real troubles there. [Pause] I’m sorry, I –
NM: That’s fine, that’s okay.
HK: Unless there’s something specific, it’s difficult to remember.
NM: Right, okay, no, that’s absolutely fine, that’s fine. And you, how long did you spend in Saint Athan training, and what type of year was it, and time of year?
HK: It was in December, it would have been ’43, and we were there ‘til about May, I think, in ’44, and then we went to, as I said, to train, initially on Stirlings, before going onto Lancasters and then the squadron.
NM: So you crewed up at the OCU at Winthorpe, did you say?
HK: Yes.
NM: How did the crewing up process go? How did you end up with the crew that you ended up with?
HK: Well, it was just the usual way, and, in the RAF, from, we were in a large hall, and Bill Ryan, the, came up to me and said, would I like to join his crew? And he came, well, then, he introduced, introduced me to the rest, and we got on quite well.
NM: So you were the last to join the crew, were you?
HK: Yes.
NM: And were they an all-Australian crew?
HK: All-Australian, yeah.
NM: And you were the only Englishman there?
HK: That’s right, yes.
NM: So, why do you think he asked you? Why do you think he asked you?
HK: I have no idea! [laughs] Perhaps I was the last one, I don’t know, but we got on quite well, actually. I was the youngest, Bill Ryan was twenty-eight, I think. [Pause] The [pause] bomb aimer came from Queensland, he was about thirty-three, wireless operator was not much older than I was, I, I did have pictures of them [sound of leafing through pages].
NM: We can come onto that afterwards, if you want.
HK: Afterwards, yeah. [leafing sounds continue] Give some names.
NM: Let’s go through their names on the record and we can look at the photographs after the interview.
HK: Yeah, right.
NM: So, you go through the names.
HK: Hmm, yes.
NM: Talk, go through the names and describe the names.
HK: Yes, well, there was Bill Ryan, Les Sabine, the navigator, he came from New South Wales, as did Johnny Nichols, the wireless operator, and Jim McPhee was bomb aimer, Norm Johnstone, the mid upper gunner, and myself, and then there was Jim Newing, but we always called him Bert so we didn’t get mixed up with Jim McPhee, the bomb aimer, he was the rear gunner, he came from Perth in western Australia, and, although I lost touch with the crew after the war, some fifty years later, I and my wife went to Perth, and I looked up the telephone directory, there was H.W. Newing, which was his name, and the telephone, and I rang up on the off chance and said ‘Have you ever been to England?’ and he said ‘Yes, who’s speaking?’ I said ‘Harold Kirby’ and he immediately said ‘Oh, our flight engineer!’ [Slight laugh] And he was able to come to the hotel and we had quite a long chat, unfortunately, we had to go off the following day, but by then, I had his address and telephone number, and we went back to Perth all summer, few years later, and he came and took us to meet his wife and have lunch, and so, that, that was very nice. Unfortunately, he’s passed away.
NM: Okay, sad to hear that. So, you went to Lancaster flying school, you say, after you, your?
HK: Yes, at Syerston, that was.
NM: That was, okay, at Syerston. And how long were you there for?
HK: Oh, just a matter of a week or so, I think. I don’t, I can’t remember that.
NM: So, you then joined 467 Squadron at Waddington?
HK: That’s right.
NM: Tell me about squadron life in 467, what was that like?
HK: What was that like? I think I was glad I’d been to 460 Squadron and got used to a lot of the Australians, so it didn’t come as a bit of a shock, but [pause] apart from those two instances that I mentioned, I think we were quite fortunate, getting away unscathed.
NM: So, can you describe general operations, then, on 467 at Waddington?
HK: Well, I, the pilot and navigator, this before an operation, they had a, an initial briefing, and then after that, the rest of the crew joined them to have a general briefing. We were – then we all had to get ready for going off, we had a, a meal beforehand. Coming back, we were debriefed, and contrary to, contrary to what other, I’ve read about other squadrons, we never got rum or anything like that, we just got coffee, and then we went to bed and waited for the next operation. I do remember that, on one occasion, I slept for about eighteen hours non-stop, virtually, that was after two or three night operations on the trot.
NM: So, when you found you were being posted to Pathfinders at –
HK: Yes.
NM: - Coningsby, at 97 Squadron, what was your feeling?
HK: Really, nothing much, we, I didn’t know much about them, and I just wanted to keep with the rest of the crew, suppose.
NM: So, was – how did Coningsby and the Pathfinders differ from a main force station at Waddington and 467?
HK: I can’t say that it was terribly different, different. We were quite fortunate in, again, that, as Waddington was, and Binbrook beforehand and then Coningsby, they were all peacetime stations and we were very comfortably housed, not like some squadrons who had to cope with a lot of mud [slight laugh]! Oh, yes, at Coningsby, we had to be capable of taking over some of the other tasks, such as, I was asked to keep the aircraft on the straight and level for a while, presumably in case the pilot couldn’t hold it, which, that was what I did, although the rear gunner said it was more like a switchback than straight and level [slight laugh]! Then I had to learn the Morse code and do some gunnery practice, and also bomb aiming, so that, that was quite a change. In fact, towards the end of the war, the normal bomb aimer went and helped the navigator with the screens that they had then, and I did the bomb aiming, so it, that was a change. [Pause] Can’t say that there’s much more to add.
NM: So the extra training that you had, then, for, for flying training for straight and level flying and for gunnery and Morse code and bomb aiming, what, how did those extra training comes about?
HK: I remember the bomb, bomb aiming, there was a sort of a, a map that sort of moved on the floor and we were practising sort of with the bomb sights, and then also, in, there was a bombing range at Wainfleet in the Wash, I think I did a, a few goes at that, and then as far as gunnery, we dropped a flare in the water and I was in the nose turret and had a go and see if I could shoot that, and so [pause] I do remember once, I think this was at, at Waddington, for some reason, the brakes failed as we were taxiing ‘round, and the pilot was able to steer by controlling the engines. The normal practice when you start off is to keep the brakes on and push the throttle forward to get maximum speed, power, and then suddenly take the brakes off and shoot off. Well, this time, we had no time to do that, we got slowly to the take-off point and got the green lights and pushed the throttles forward and, fortunately [laughs], took off okay! And then, again, we thought we’d go back to Woodbridge, which we did, and I repaired the brakes and we got back to base. [Pause]
NM: What did you feel about the different roles that you were asked to play, then, between flight engineer and gunnery and bomb aiming?
HK: Well, I quite enjoyed it, the change, yes.
NM: So your crew, altogether, did forty-four operations?
HK: Yes.
NM: And you all stayed together for the whole time?
HK: No, all except the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator, they decided they wouldn’t go on to the second tour, and so we had spare chaps to do that, but I can’t really remember much about them.
NM: How did the crew feel about losing two stalwarts and getting two replacements?
HK: Well, don’t think we were terribly happy, but that was, you know, if they didn’t want to go on, well, that was it. I preferred to carry on rather than go to a training squadron because that could be a bit dicey sometimes.
NM: What would you say about life in Bomber Command overall?
HK: Overall, I had quite a good time, really. [Pause] No, I don’t think I would have chosen anything else, I was quite happy with what I was doing. Bit dicey at times, but that was it.
NM: Do you keep, keep in touch at all with, or – you’ve spoken about the rear gunner you’ve met in Australia, do you keep in touch with squadron associations, reunions?
HK: Oh, I, I kept up with the squadron association, and Path – not, yes, Pathfinder Association, while it was still in force, and then I belonged to the Aircrew Association, we had monthly meetings, and –
NM: Were they locally here?
HK: That was at, that’s at Hemel Hempstead, but there’s another ex-Pathfinder who flew in Mosquitos who lived in Hatch End, and we take it in turns to drive to Hemel, but we were quite fortunate, really, because a lot of the branches had to close because lack of members, but as it’s open to post-war fliers as well, we’ve got quite a few in, in our association, and they help to keep the thing going, in fact, I think all the, apart from one, are post-war fliers, or the, I’m trying to say, the people that control, the – sorry, I, I get mixed up with words sometimes [laughs]! Yeah, but anyway, we keep going.
NM: Okay, that’s fair [?]. How do you think Bomber Command has been treated since the war?
HK: Not very well; in fact, I think in the end, we were quite happy to get the memorial. [Pause] Lot of work has been done to get it organised.
NM: Okay, shall we call it a day there?
HK: Hmm?
NM: Shall we finish the interview there? Are you happy with that, or was there anything else you’d like to talk about with your time in Bomber Command?
HK: I think I’ve covered most things. [Pause] I was telling you about my two friends that joined up before I did, both got shot down, one unfortunately on the Nuremburg raid, and the other one, who was on Stirlings, got shot down over France but parachuted to safety and was looked after by the French until he was – the Americans came. But, so, I was quite fortunate, really.
NM: So, did you find out about your friend’s loss during the war, or was it after the, only after the war, did you find?
HK: It was during the war, yes, I kept in touch with my particular school friend’s mother or parents and heard when he’d got shot down; they didn’t know what had happened to him at the time, of course, yes. [Pause] So I did keep up with that school friend after he’d come back from – to England. One peculiar thing happened was, at the time before he got shot down, he, he’d sent me a picture of him and a bomb aimer, his bomb aimer, and I was showing this to my crew, and my bomb aimer said ‘I know that chap, we’ve been doing training together in Canada!’ But he stayed on to do some training others and so he, he didn’t come, get to this country until well after my school friend’s bomb aimer had come here, but both the bomb aimer and my friend were the only two that managed to get out of the aircraft when it was shot.
NM: And you finished up doing a radar mechanic’s course?
HK: Yes.
NM: After the war.
HK: Ah, yes.
NM: Tell me a little bit about that.
HK: Well, that was quite enjoyable, learning how the radar worked, and after the war, instead of going back – well, I did go back for a while to my original job, which was in an accounts department, in an accounts department in an electric supplier, I decided I wanted to do something a bit more technical, and the GEC at the time were advertising for people for their laboratories, and I went along and got a job in their patents department, and trained – well, I did evening classes, got BSc, then went on to do the patent agent’s exams and stayed there until I retired, retired in ’83 but went on and did five more years part-time, until they moved the whole place to Chelmsford, I decided that was enough [slight laugh].
NM: And you’ve been retired ever since?
HK: Hmm?
NM: You’ve been retired ever since?
HK: Yes.
NM: Okay, I think that’s probably a very good note to finish on.
HK: [Laughs] Yes!
[Recording beeps: interview paused and restarted]
NM: Just continuing the interview with Mr Kirby.
HK: Yes, there were a couple of instances which I remember now, not actually connected with the enemy, but we were due to fly to Munich to bomb something at Munich, and we had to, we were rooted over the Alps in moonlight, which was a beautiful sight to see, and then another occasion, we flew to one of the eastern countries, oh, I could tell you exactly where it is [sound of leafing through pages], and we had to fly over Sweden at the time, and, yes. No, I can’t [pause as HK continues leafing through pages] Ah, Politz. Yes, I had to fly over Sweden, which was quite exciting ‘cause it was all lit up, they did shoot, but we were told that not to worry, they weren’t going to shoot at us. [Laughs] But those are just two instances I happen to remember.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Harold Kirby. One
Creator
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Nigel Moore
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-10
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00:42:44 audio recording
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Sound
Identifier
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AKirbyH150710, PKirbyH1511
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Kirby joined up the Royal Air Force encouraged by two friends, but ended up training as a flight mechanic at RAF Halton on medical grounds. Harold became them airframe fitter, volunteered as a flight engineer, passed the physical but was then posted as a fitter at RAF Binbrook for six months with 460 Squadron. He was then at RAF Saint Athan to train as a flight engineer, then to RAF Winthorpe Heavy Conversion Unit with an all-Australian aircrew. Harold recollects a crash landing at RAF Woodbridge, followed by attending Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Syerston. He was then posted to 467 Squadron at RAF Waddington. Discusses bombing operations over France V-1 weapons sites, a bomb falling through a wing, and crash landing at RAF Wittering. Harold was eventually posted to 97 Pathfinder Squadron at RAF Coningsby, owing to his array of skills and multiple qualifications. Discusses post war training as radar mechanic, employment at the General Electric Company and reunions with his Australian aircrew.
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Temporal Coverage
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1942
Language
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eng
460 Squadron
467 Squadron
8 Group
97 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
crash
crewing up
fitter airframe
flight engineer
flight mechanic
forced landing
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
mechanics airframe
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Halton
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wainfleet
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Wittering
RAF Woodbridge
recruitment
Stirling
training
V-1
V-weapon
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/3442/PKirbyH1511.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/286/3442/AKirbyHVA160611.2.mp3
77fbbeda6cb538a1fc8c3a042b4c080b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kirby, Harold
Harold V A Kirby
H V A Kirby
Harold Kirby
H Kirby
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Harold Kirby (1923 - 2022, 1637087 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-10
2015-09-21
2016-06-11
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kirby, H
Requires
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Warrant Officer Harold Kirby 1637087 was born in Kilbourne, Loncon in 1923, his job after leaving school was in the accounting department at London Electric Supplies. He initially tried to volunteer for the RAF but failed the medical, at that time. He was subsequently drafted in 1942. Skill training started with training as a Flight Mechanic, but during this was asked to volunteer to rain as a Flight Engineer. His first posting was as an Aircraft Fitter at No.460 Squadron, RAF Binbrook, although only for 6 months.
After Flight Engineer training at St Athan and then training on the Short Stirling and then the Lancaster with 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe, the first solo flight for the crew, the port landing gear would not lock, during the landing the gear collapsed, although there were no injuries.
First operational unit was No.467 Squadron at RAF Waddington a mainly Australian Squadron, the crew were here for July and August 1944, One operation 3/4th August 1944, to the V1 storage site at Trossy Saint Maximin had another bomber flying above their aircraft and dropping their bombs, one going through the wing, narrowly missing vital structures, this resulted in a gear up landing, due to hydraulic loss, but again there were no injuries resulting.
He was then posted along with the crew to No 97 Squadron, based at RAF Coningsby a pathfinder squadron, tasked to mark the targets for other aircraft,
In total two tours were completed before the end of the European war, after finishing as a Flight Engineer, Harold trained as a RADAR mechanic, before leaving the RAF.
Andy St.Denis
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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TO: This recording was recorded for the International Bomber Command Centre digital archive which owns the copyright for this performance. OK, so what year were you born in?
HK: 1923.
TO: And, er, where were you born?
HK: In Kilburn. Kingsgate Road, Kilburn.
TO: I live near there. I live near there at the moment. I’m in West Hampstead.
HK: Oh, right. OK.
TO: And, er, when were you a child were you interested in aircraft?
HK: Not particularly no, although we did go to the Hendon Air Mus— display on occasions, um, but not, not particularly interested when I was young.
TO: What, what kind of aircraft did they have at the display?
HK: I think they were, er, sort of two-winged planes, yes. I can’t really remember much about it.
TO: Right and were your parents in the First World War?
HK: Yes, my fa— yes, my father was in the Army but he managed to survive.
TO: Did you, er, did he ever talk about his time in the war?
HK: Very rarely. We did go to the, er, an Army museum somewhere and he did explain a bit what he did but not very much.
TO: Is that on? And, er, when did you leave school?
HK: When did I leave school? At sixteen. We had moved to Kingsbury by then and I went to Kingsbury County School.
TO: And, er, what were your favourite subjects at school?
HK: Maths.
TO: And, er, did you use maths in your first job?
HK: No, not really, no. My first job was in the accounts department of London Electrics Supply. That was in Waterloo but, er, maths didn’t really come into it much.
TO: And, er, in the 1930s did they, did the papers talk about what Hitler was doing in Europe?
HK: I think they must have done but I wasn’t really interested at that time.
TO: And did you go to the cinema much?
HK: Yes, quite often, yes. I usually went with my mother and brother. My father wasn’t terribly interested.
TO: Do you remember any specific films you saw? Are there any films you remember seeing?
HK: Not really, no. I remember seeing some silent films early on but, er, I remember a film called “Rin Tin Tin” about a dog but I can’t really remember much about it.
TO: I have heard about that film but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it but my grandmother mentioned it to me once. And, er, do remember hearing about the Munich Agreement?
HK: Oh, yes, yes. That was 1938 was it? Yes, oh yes. I was a bit older by then.
TO: And what did you think of Chamberlain appeasing Hitler?
HK: I’m not sure whether it was just to delay things or not or whether he really thought it would be appeasement. But, er, I just don’t know.
TO: And after the agreement were people making preparations for war?
HK: Yes. Oh, definitely, yes. They seemed to think it was definitely coming by then.
TO: Was there any preparations you were involved in?
HK: No, not until the war started and then we dug the garden for allotments but nothing much at the time.
TO: And do you think Britain could have made better preparations?
HK: I don’t think so, no. Oh, possibly got in a better store of food [slight laugh]. I don’t know.
TO: But were you surprised though when you heard that war had started?
HK: I think we knew it was coming. Yes. Yes. I heard the, um, broadcast by Neville Chamberlain.
TO: Do you remember how you felt when you heard it?
HK: I really felt that, er, we’d have to — well, I don’t really know at that time. I was only about sixteen so — but apprehensive probably.
TO: And did you have any relatives who were in the armed forces?
HK: I had some uncles in the First World War. Oh, a younger uncle, um, was in the fire service and then he went in the Army. Yes. That was all at the time.
TO: And, er, did, how did you feel when you heard that France had been defeated?
HK: Well, I thought we had our backs to the wall by then, yes. So, er, had to get down and try and preserve ourselves.
TO: Do you think France let Britain down?
HK: I don’t really think there was much they could do at the time. Germany was too powerful.
TO: And, er, when war had started did you think it would be a short war or a long war?
HK: Well, I had hoped it would be a short one but I, I really don’t know. I didn’t really have an opinion then.
TO: Were you living in London when the Luftwaffe started their bombing?
HK: In Kingsbury, yeah.
TO: And can you remember any specific occasions?
HK: We did have a, a bomb came down in the road but it didn’t explode but, er, it damaged houses, they — I think the toilets cracked or something and there was a house about three doors away that was more damaged and they had to leave it. But no, no explosions took place.
TO: Did you witness any aerial battles at that time?
HK: Oh yes, at the time, yes. I was quite interested.
TO: Were you worried that the Luftwaffe might win?
HK: What, what’s that?
TO: The Luftwaffe might defeat the RAF. Were you worried?
HK: Well, I suppose I was worried but, er, we seemed to have the upper hand at the end of the Battle of Britain.
TO: What did you think of RAF leaders at the time, like, er, Dowding?
HK: Well, I can’t say I had much opinion at that age, no.
TO: OK. Do you remember what kind of rations you had? [sound of rustling papers]
HK: I couldn’t say definitely but I knew we had rations. Things were in short supply, yes?
TO: Did you have better rations though when you were in the Air Force?
HK: Yes, definitely.
TO: And did you, did you have an air raid shelter where you lived?
HK: We had the indoor one, the Morrison shelter, yes. I don’t think we ever used it really.
TO: Would the Morrison have been much use do you think?
HK: The shelter?
TO: Yes.
HK: Well, it, it would have been but as I said I don’t think we really used it much.
TO: And as there much bomb damage near where you worked?
HK: Where I worked? Quite a bit, yes. This was up in Waterloo.
TO: And were you worried that Britain might surrender?
HK: I don’t think I was. No, I don’t think I was, no. I, if I thought about I thought we’d probably succeed which we did eventually.
TO: And did you ever see anyone behaving badly during the Blitz?
HK: I can’t that say I did. No.
TO: Do you think people pulled together?
HK: Yes.
TO: So, when exactly did you come to join the Air Force then? [sound of rustling papers]
HK: This is a bit of a long story. Two school friends and myself tried to get in early on flying duties. They got in, eventually became navigators, but I was turned down. I wasn’t fit for flying duties at the time but I was called up in ’42, initially trained as a, a flight mechanic, er, went on to do a training as a fitter and, um, while I was doing the courses they were calling for volunteers to become flight engineers. This time I passed the medical and eventually became a flight engineer.
TO: Do you remember what kind of medical tests they gave you?
HK: Well, I remember sort of blowing in a tube and holding the mercury up and the colour blindness test. I don’t really remember much else.
TO: Was there a certain, was there a certain kind of educational test you had to do?
HK: I’m pretty certain there was but I can’t remember it.
TO: And did your maths play a role with you being selected as a flight engineer?
HK: I think it helped, yes. [sound of rustling papers]
TO: And would you — did you ever consider trying to be a pilot or navigator?
HK: I did but, um, eventually when I was called for the medical, um, I did explain I had originally applied and they said at that time I was quite fit to become a navigator but as that was going to take longer I thought I’d persevere with being flight engineer.
TO: Once you got into a certain role, like flight engineer, could you reapply to be something else?
HK: Yes, certainly. Yes.
TO: And what did you relatives think of you being in the Air Force?
HK: My mother was very apprehensive, yes. But I don’t know what else, no.
TO: And so, er, can you describe a bit more about your training for being air crew?
HK: Yes, well after I’d become a fitter I was posted up to Binbrook and did six months, mainly repairing airplanes, and after the six months I was posted to St Athan to do my training as a flight engineer. Eventually I passed out, went to the heavy engineering, er, heavy aircraft place at Winthorpe where I crewed-up. The rest of the crew were all Australian. So, er, then we went to Waddington on 467 Squadron initially and later, after about sixteen operations we were transferred to, um, 97 Squadron, a Pathfinders squadron.
TO: And do you remember the first time you went up in a plane?
HK: Yes. That, that was when we had the old Stirling planes for training. That was the first time I went up, yeah, but I don’t really remember much about that.
TO: What did you, er, think of the Stirling?
HK: I think they were really clapped out by then. This was in, yes, early ’44. Actually, on the — my pilot’s first, um, solo on the Stirlings he couldn’t get the wheels down. I had to wind them down by hand which was a long job but then the, um, port one wouldn’t lock so we were advised to go to, um, one of the air, air stations that were — had damaged aircraft. That was in Suffolk somewhere. I forget the name and, er, we went there and the undercarriage collapsed on that, collapsed on that side. We spun round but no-one was hurt. Then the instructor came down with another aircraft and made my pilot fly it back. That was all the excitement we had on that station.
TO: Were most bombers, did most bombers have the same layout inside?
HK: No, not at all, no. They were quite different. The flight engineer on a Stirling was way back. I’m not sure what it was on the Halifax now but, er, with the Lancaster it was next to the pilot.
TO: I, a couple of years ago I spoke to a chap who had been a navigator in Lancasters and he said in the Halifax you had, the navigator had a separate office downstairs or something.
HK: I believe so, yes.
TO: Did you have a particular favourite aircraft of the war?
HK: A favourite one. Well that was the Lancaster. No doubt about it.
TO: Was it, was it, was it, did it feel different flying a Lancaster, flying in a Lancaster to other planes?
HK: What?
TO: You said you were flying in a Lancaster. Did it feel different on board a Stirling?
HK: Yes, yes, it was much better, yes. I can’t really remember much about the Stirling.
TO: Were you ever aboard a Halifax?
HK: No.
TO: Or a Wellington?
HK: No. No.
TO: OK. OK. So, er, when you were sent to the squadrons what, what did — were they mainly Lancasters?
HK: Yeah. They were all Lancasters where we were, at Waddington and then Coningsby.
TO: And as the flight engineer what would your duties be aboard the plane?
HK: Well, to assist the pilot in taking off, um, keeping an eye on the engine temperatures and oil pressures all the time, um, keeping a lookout on the starboard side, um, and doing any repairs which were possible on board. That was about it I think.
TO: Could you please describe the procedure for taking off in a Lancaster?
HK: Well [clears throat] initially we had to check, um, go round the aircraft and check the outside, then inside we had to run up the engines in turn to see how they were, watch there no significant [unclear] as they called it and, er, then we taxied to the start off point, run up the engines with the brakes on until we got the green light and then we were away. The only trouble was on one occasion, as we were going round the runway, um, the brakes failed and the pilot managed to guide it by the engines and at the start off point we couldn’t run up against the brakes as was normal. We just got to the start and pushed the throttle forwards and went off. But we got off OK then coming back we went — I’m trying to remember the name of the place where we first went with the, er, the Stirling, but they’d got a long runway so we flew there and so they repaired the brakes and we flew back.
TO: How reliable was the Lancaster?
HK: Very reliable generally, yes. We did have a bit of trouble with the intercom now and again but no, generally very reliable.
TO: And were you quite friendly with the ground crew?
HK: Yes, quite, quite friendly yes but, er, I think I ought to have been more friendly at the time but I was young, young and they were older people so, er, I, I don’t think I got as friendly as I should have done.
TO: How old were the people you were with?
HK: The, the ground crew? Oh, I reckon in their thirties, um, most, most of them I think were regulars. [beep sound]
TO: And what about the crew aboard the bomber. How old were they?
HK: Well, I was the youngest. The pilot was twenty-eight. I was just, just turned twenty-one. The bomb aimer was also early thirties and, um, the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator were quite young, um, mid mid-twenties I suppose but I got on very well with them.
TO: Did, were you, were you allowed to be friends with the — sorry, what was your rank?
HK: Rank? At the time I was just a sergeant, then flight sergeant and eventually warrant officer.
TO: Were there any rules about who you could be friends with?
HK: No, not, not really. I went about with some of the crew, yes. Of course though we were kept separate at the station, the officers and the NCOs separate.
TO: Was there ever any friction between the crew of the bomber?
HK: Not as far as I was concerned no. Never heard any.
TO: What did you think of Arthur Harris?
HK: I think he was just the man for the job at the time, yes.
TO: And, er, what did you think of the German aircraft of the war?
HK: Oh well, they — fortunately we didn’t have much of a contact with them. On our first, very first operation we were coming back and the rear gunner suddenly shouted to corkscrew and there was a plane. It was a twin-engine plane coming up behind and it let off a burst, and one bullet went through the rear turret and went through the rear gunner’s clothing and cut off his heating supply, which he was very aggrieved because it got very cold but we got back safely. The attacking aircraft I saw over— overtook us as we dived on the corkscrew and we never saw it again. So that was really a sort of a foretaste of what could have come but we were quite fortunate. We never saw any single or twin-engine aircraft again.
TO: And how do you feel about the Churchill deciding to order the bombing of Germany?
HK: How about —
TO: Churchill ordering Germany to be bombed?
HK: Well, I think it was war-time. I must say that in all our briefing we were all briefed to bomb military targets, um, not just towns, but at the time the accuracy of bombing was such that towns were destroyed, um, acc— well, not accidently, but I think the powers that be knew what was going on but, um, as I said we, we were briefed to bomb targets.
TO: I’ve, I’ve, er, I read, listened to an interview with Harris where he defended the tactics he used and he says that anyone who wants to criticise him for ordering the bombing of towns has never looked out of a window because if they had done they would know the cloud conditions over Europe means you can’t hit individual targets.
HK: That’s right, yeah.
TO: And were there ever any occasions where aircraft were damaged by the weather?
HK: By the weather?
TO: Like snow or thunderstorms?
HK: No, I don’t think so. Well, not as far as I was concerned, no.
TO: And, er, you just mentioned briefings. How did the briefings work?
HK: In what way?
TO: Well, how many people would you have in the room? Were you shown maps or photos?
HK: Yeah, well there was a big map at the front and with the target route marked. The pilot and the navigator had a separate briefing initially and then we all went together to the main briefing. I suppose, depending on the number of planes that were going, about seven crew, um, there must have been sort of getting on for seventy, possibly, in the main briefing, yeah. [clears throat] The commander got up and gave a brief talk and then the chief navigator and bomb— bomb— bombing instructor all gave a brief talk and we went for a pre-operational meal and got ready.
TO: What did you do to prepare yourselves for the mission?
HK: Well, just went, um, to the equipment room and got our parachutes and got dressed and waited around for the time to, to go off.
TO: And as you got on board the plane were you feeling nervous?
HK: Tiredness more than nervous, yes.
TO: And was there anyone who was actually showing any fear or were they all keeping it, keeping it to themselves?
HK: I think they were all keeping to themselves, yes.
TO: Do you know of anyone who during the war who wasn’t able — who just felt too nervous to get on board the plane?
HK: I don’t know of anyone, no. I knew there were people who decided they couldn’t go on but they were got off the stations as quickly as they could.
TO: So, if you can please could you describe your first ever mission over German?
HK: Well, as I said the first ever mission was the one in which we got shot at but survived that. The, er, worst trip was on the VI storage sites in France. This was a daylight raid and the mid upper gunner said, ‘There’s a Lanc immediately above us just opened his bomb doors.’ But before we could do anything we felt two thumps and one of the bombs went through the port wing and took away the port undercarriage and so I shut down the engine on that side because it was immediately behind the engine and, er, we came home on three engines and landed but our pilot decided to land on the grass runway, which we did, and again no one was hurt.
TO: Were you worried the plane would crash when the —
HK: Oh yes, yes. It came down. Our pilot was very successful in landing it. We did a belly landing because we lost all the hydraulics. We couldn’t get the other undercarriage down, couldn’t use the flaps on it. We just had to come in but, um, yeah, we were quite fortunate.
TO: And incidents like that ever — after that incident, were you reluctant to go on more missions?
HK: No, no, no. It was just a job.
TO: So, you mentioned that — was it VIs you were bombing?
HK: Yes, the VI storage sites, yes.
TO: Sorry can you describe what they are? I’m not familiar with them.
HK: The VI, the Doodlebugs, yes. They had storage places for them. This was at Trossy Saint Maximin. I don’t know where that is now but it’s in France somewhere.
TO: And what kind of pay load would the, would your Lancaster carry?
HK: Well, initially it was, er, thousand pounders and the incendiaries and then when we went to Pathfinders it was — we dropped flares initially to light up the target area as well as high explosives.
TO: Do you remember what kind of military targets you were generally after?
HK: What, um — the canal, Dortmund-Ems [?] canal, railway sidings, bridges, harbours, all sorts of things.
TO: And did you ever hear how, how successful your missions had been?
HK: Well, they did display photographs afterwards so we could see. I — definitely some of them were definitely successful. But, um, I don’t remember a lot about it, no.
TO: OK. So, was your first raid over Germany in 1943?
HK: No. ’44.
TO: OK and had you heard about the thousand bomber raids that —
HK: Yes. I had, had read about them, yes.
TO: And how many planes would generally accompany your Lancaster?
HK: I think it depended a lot, um, possibly upwards twenty, fifty, possibly a hundred. I, I don’t really know.
TO: Was there, were there any points on board a mission where you could relax to a degree?
HK: Well, we relaxed to a degree once we were on the North Sea on the way home but, um, we still had to keep a look-out. But, er, we didn’t really relax until we’d landed.
TO: And what was the procedure for coming into land?
HK: We had to call up the station and were given directions as to what height to circle and sort of gradually come down and then told we could go into land.
TO: Were landings scary at all?
HK: No, I don’t think so. I don’t recall.
TO: So, the incident where you mentioned with the — where had to shut down the engines, could, did you have control, does that mean you had control over the engines as you were the engineer?
HK: Yeah, it was, yes. I, I’m not sure I got the order to shut it down but I did it anyway because as the bomber had sort of taken all the bits behind the engine I thought there was a danger of petrol coming and catching fire and so that’s why I shut it down.
TO: But was the rest of the aircraft still working fine?
HK: It was, yes, yes. As I said we’d lost all the hydraulics. We couldn’t operate the flaps or what was left of the undercarriage but, um, the pilot did a good job.
TO: So, how many people would you normally have aboard the bomber?
HK: Seven altogether.
TO: And can you describe the conditions in general aboard the bomber?
HK: There wasn’t a lot of room I know that. Yes, well we had to get from the door up to the front of the aircraft, over the main spar and, er, but once we were in position it was quite OK.
TO: And how was morale in general amongst the crew?
HK: Generally pretty good, yes, yeah.
TO: And did your squadron suffer heavy losses?
HK: Occasionally yes, yes. I can’t recall any particular case but we did lose certainly some.
TO: Did you hear much about the American bombing of Germany?
HK: I didn’t hear much about it, no.
TO: And did the, your friends in the plane, did they talk much about their lives at home?
HK: Which, the friends?
TO: Your fellow crew members on the plane?
HK: Not a lot, no, no.
TO: And did the Lancasters get new bombs as the war went on?
HK: Sorry, did —
TO: Did the Lancasters get new bombs as the war went on?
HK: I suppose so. I don’t really know.
TO: And, er, were there any — do you remember any occasions where you were over major German cities?
HK: I remember going to Munich and Hamburg a number of times. We never went to Berlin but, er, yes. I don’t really remember much about that.
TO: Was there heavy anti-aircraft fire?
HK: Oh, plenty, yes. We could see them exploding in the air, yes.
TO: Did they ever come near the plane?
HK: We were fortunate. We didn’t have a lot of damage. We did have some shrapnel damage but not a lot, no.
TO: You mentioned was it the tail gunner who got the heating supply cut off? Did he seem traumatised at all by that?
HK: I don’t think he was traumatised but, er, he certainly remembered it because, um, when my wife and I went to Perth in Australia where he lived, we managed to meet him, he was telling my wife about it. He was most aggrieved about the heating supply going off [laugh].
TO: Was his reaction to it pretty normal?
HK: I think so, yes.
TO: And I’m sorry to ask this but do you know of anyone who died during the raids?
HK: During the Blitz, yes, distant, well, distant friends of my parents moved to a place. I lived in Kilburn initially and then moved to, um, a place near Barking and then one of the girls who was my age, um, was out doing fire watching or something but she was killed and, er, the others, one of the other sisters was wounded but I don’t know anyone else really close.
TO: Did you know anyone who, anyone in RAF who died on raids over Germany?
HK: Yes, yes, quite a number from the squadron we were on, yes.
TO: Did you ever talk about them?
HK: Not a lot, no. I remember we had two people from Ireland. One was a young chap, probably my age, and the other was a bit older and the older man was on his last mission, got shot down and killed, and this young chap was really upset about that. But, um, I don’t remember much about anyone else.
TO: And did you hear about the attack on the Ruhr dams?
HK: Heard about them, yes, yes.
TO: Did that have much effect on morale?
HK: I think it probably did but we were quite, um, happy that they had done it but we didn’t know a lot about it at the time.
TO: Do you think the raid was successful? [bleep sound]
HK: It was successful I think, yes.
TO: And were there any occasions when your squadron dropped leaflets?
HK: I can’t recall dropping actual leaflets, no. We did drop the window over — you’ve heard about that. Yes, but I don’t remember about leaflets, no.
TO: Can you please describe what the procedure was for deploying window.
HK: Well, there was the chutes near where I was and it was just unpacking the, er, packets and dropping them sort of shortly before went into Germany. But, er, I don’t think we had them all that much.
TO: Do you think window was effective?
HK: I think it probably was, well initially anyway. Later on I don’t know. There was a chute next to my position where I could drop them through.
TO: So it was your duty and not the bomb aimer?
HK: Yes.
TO: Can you explain how, what impact window had on the Germans?
HK: Well, initially it upset their radar quite a bit but then eventually they got used to it and I think that was probably why we stopped.
TO: I’m not sure if you’re aware but I think that just before Hamburg when they first used window Germany actually had developed the same thing but didn’t want to used it on Britain in case Britain used it on Germany. So both sides had window but both sides didn’t want to use it. [slight laughter] And you mentioned you only saw that twin-engine plane on that one occasion, did you ever see other German planes?
HK: In the distance, yes, yes, or near a target we saw a couple way below us. I don’t remember seeing any, any more, no.
TO: When you saw them were you worried that they would come near you?
HK: Was I what?
TO: When you saw the planes below you were you worried that they would come and attack?
HK: Well, they were well below us. I, I don’t know what they were doing but they were coming cross-wise but, um, two of them together, but whether they were after a particular target or not I don’t know.
TO: And were you sat in the cockpit the whole time?
HK: Yes, well mainly, yes.
TO: What would you do if you had to move around the bomber?
HK: Well, we had portable oxygen bottles we had to take. I did have to go back to the rear gunner once because his, um, the fluid was leaking from his supply line that operated the turret. I managed to put one of these circuits round because it, it had come off the supply, but he had to be very careful ultimate.
TO: Can you describe what kind of equipment you — sorry, what kind of clothes would you wear on board the bomber?
HK: A very thick jumper, um, some form of outer coat of some sort. I don’t really remember. Then a Mae West. I remember it was very bulky getting through the aircraft at the time.
TO: And did you wear an oxygen mask at all times?
HK: Yes. Pretty well all the time, yes. [cough]
TO: And where did you keep the parachutes?
HK: The parachutes. Well, my parachute was stored just behind me. The pilot had a, er, sit-on one as did the rear gunner I think. The rest of the crew had the parachutes as near as they could get them.
TO: And did the Lancaster have escape hatches?
HK: Yes, yes. There was one by the bomb aimer down in the front and then there was the door at the back and hatches in the roof.
TO: Were you ever told what to do it you ever had to bail out?
HK: Well, yes. We had to practice getting out.
TO: How did that practice work?
HK: Well it wasn’t in the air. It was on the ground, just getting through the front hatch.
TO: Were you ever worried about being shot down?
HK: I can’t say that I was particularly worried, no?
TO: And what kind of instruments did you have in front of you when you were sat in the cockpit?
HK: Well, the instruments at the side were the oil pressures and temperatures etcetera. In the front you had the normal — you know, I can’t really remember. I know we had the, um, all the knobs for pressing to cut off the engines but I wasn’t so much concerned with the flight controls as the engine temperatures and pressures that was at the side.
TO: Can you remember what would happen aboard the plane when you reached the targets and had to drop the bombs?
HK: Well, the bomb aimer gave directions and, er, and had to fly straight and level for a certain length of time and then he said, ‘Bombs gone.’ And immediately closed the bomb doors and got off as quickly as we could.
TO: Did your Lancaster ever carry a cookie?
HK: That’s the four thousand pound. Yes, I think it did on occasions but I can’t really remember now.
TO: Could you actually feel the bombs leaving the plane?
HK: Did —
TO: Could you feel the bombs leaving the plane?
HK: Oh, well when they were dropped yes. We did sort of go up quite suddenly.
TO: And were there any times when engines, when, not when damaged but when the engines just malfunctioned without warning?
HK: No, no. The engines were pretty good on the whole, yes.
TO: Merlins weren’t they?
HK: Merlins yes.
TO: [unclear] And did you ever go on — were your missions mainly at night?
HK: Mainly at night although we did do some daylight ones. These were mainly, as I said, over the storage sites of — in France.
TO: Did you prefer daylight or night missions?
HK: I think night because we couldn’t see what was going on.
TO: Could you ever see the cities below you?
HK: Yes, we could especially when we were doing dropping the flares, yes.
TO: And can you explain, can you explain what the, how the other Pathfinder missions worked?
HK: Yes, there was Flare Force 1, which was — went out early when the bombing was due to start and we dropped flares then, er, if necessary, the master bomber called out for more flares and then there was the Flare Force 2 which was sort of circling around and then came in and dropped the other flares, and that’s really mainly what I can remember.
TO: When did they actually invent the Pathfinders, if you like?
HK: I think it came into force in 1942 because, um, they were worried about the, er, the bombing wasn’t very accurate at the time and, er, I think it did improve with the Pathfinders.
TO: So just to make sure I’ve got this right, the Pathfinders dropped the flares and the other main bombers would follow the flares?
HK: That’s right, yes.
TO: And was Pathfinding just as dangerous as other bombing?
HK: I think it was but we didn’t know much about it at the time.
TO: I don’t know if you can answer this question but how long did the missions tend to last, usually?
HK: From about five hours up to about ten depending on where the target was.
TO: How far into Germany would you tend to go?
HK: I think the furthest was a place called — I’ve got the, er, name of the place here.
TO: Do you want me to get it? Shall I get it? [background noises]
HK: No. [background noises] Yes, Trondheim in Norway but I don’t remember what the target was? That was ten hours.
TO: Would that have been the Tirpitz? The Tirpitz?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Would that have been the battleship, Tirpitz?
HK: Yes. Yes.
TO: Because that was around Trondheim or Tromso or something when it was sunk by 617 Squadron I think when they were dropping Barnes Wallis’s tallboys.
HK: Yes, yes. I think that was the longest one, ten hours.
TO: So, so were you on a pathfinding mission for the Tirpitz do you think?
HK: Yes. I, I don’t really remember what we were doing over Trondheim.
TO: I could be entirely wrong when I say the Tirpitz but I know that the RAF did go after it and finally got it in November 1944 so, so I don’t know if that’s adds up or — did you hear about the sinking of the Tirpitz though?
HK: Yes, I heard about it, yes.
TO: And do you feel glad to have had a role in it be destroyed?
HK: I, I don’t remember much about that raid, no. I think we had to go to Scotland and refuel before we took off but I don’t, don’t remember much about it.
TO: And what do you think about the bombing of Hamburg in 1943?
HK: We didn’t hear much about it at the time, no, so I can’t really say.
TO: And what about the bombing of Berlin?
HK: Well, there again I said we never went to Berlin so there again I can’t really say.
TO: And what about Dresden?
HK: Well, Dresden we were briefed to bomb the railway sidings. There, there was supposed to be a lot of German concentrations ready to go to the Eastern Front, er, which was what we did. We didn’t really know at the time how the town was devastated.
TO: Were you still on Pathfinders at that point?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Were you still on Pathfinders at that point?
HK: Oh yes, yes.
TO: So did Pathfinders actually carry bombs or just flares?
HK: We did carry bombs as well, yes.
TO: And were some cities more heavily defended than others?
HK: Yes. Those in the Ruhr were quite heavily defended, yes. Others not so much.
TO: Was Dresden heavily defended?
HK: That I can’t remember. I don’t think it was, no.
TO: When, was the, was the, was the AK 88 the main anti-aircraft weapon the Germans have?
HK: Yes.
TO: Were the crews afraid of it or was the firing generally inaccurate?
HK: I don’t know that we thought about it all that much and just hoped it didn’t get too close.
TO: Did you ever — I know you were at night but could you ever actually make out other RAF bombers nearby?
HK: Not usually, now and again, yes, we saw — yes. Some got very close.
TO: Was that — you probably don’t know but was the, the bomb aimer or pilot of that was above you when it bumped into the wing, do you think they would have been reprimanded for what happened?
HK: I don’t think they would have known because the bomb aimer would have been looking forward. I don’t suppose they realised what was happening but we never found out who it was.
TO: Would you hold it against them if you found out then?
HK: It was just one of those things. I don’t think they — well they obviously didn’t do it on purpose.
TO: How much do you think a Lancaster could take and still get home?
HK: Quite a bit, yes. I have pictures of the hole in the Lancaster the bomb went through if you would like to see it?
TO: We can see that later. Can we see that later? I’d love to see that. And ss the war went on did you, did you think the bombing campaign was being successful.
HK: I think, as far as I was concerned I thought it was, yes.
TO: And was there anyone claiming that the tactics weren’t working?
HK: I didn’t hear any, no.
TO: And, this is a strange question probably but when you’re, or not when you’re on missions but when you’re just sitting in the cockpit of the aircraft, did you ever get the chance just to admire the view down below?
HK: Yes, um, on one of the missions to Munich we were briefed to fly over the Alps and it was moonlight and that was a sight to see I must admit and, er, when we went to some of the eastern European count— towns we had to fly over Sweden, which was all lit up, and that was a sight to see as well. They did, well, we were told they would shoot at us but not to be too near. I don’t think anyone was shot down over Sweden.
TO: My, the navigator I mentioned earlier he mentioned that there was a crew of his that used to fly over Switzerland and said the Swiss would fire anti-aircraft guns but they would deliberately fire them too far away so —
HK: I think that was the same with Sweden, yeah.
TO: Was that strange to see towns that were lit rather than in black-out?
HK: Yes, it was certainly a sight to see [laugh].
TO: And did your plane, did the navigator, or not necessarily the navigator, but did your plane ever get lost, as in not sure where they were going?
HK: No, I don’t think so, no. I don’t recall that.
TO: So, again there was a pilot whose plane got lost because the navigation equipment got broken or something. Was it quite cold on board the plane?
HK: It wasn’t too bad where we were up near the front but it got cold further back but the mid gunner and the rear gunner had a heated suit but yes it was pretty cold back there.
TO: Do you know any Lancaster gunners who successfully shot down fighters?
HK: No, I don’t know any definitely, no.
TO: Do you think they were much use against fighters?
HK: I think so, probably helpful in, in keeping the fighters away, even if they were just looking out.
TO: Did you carry any food aboard the plane with you?
HK: Yes we had some rations. On the long, long operations but I don’t remember much about what we had except they were — we did have tins of juice, er, vacuum flask of coffee, some food of some sort but I don’t remember what it was.
TO: Do you remember if anyone had a firearm aboard the plane?
HK: No.
TO: And were you ever given instruction on how to evade capture if you were shot down?
HK: Oh, we did had some instruction, yes. Try and keep low and if we were over a country other than Germany trying to get hold of some local people if we could.
TO: Did anyone on board the plane actually speak German?
HK: Not as far as I know, no.
TO: How many missions did you go on during the war?
HK: Forty-four altogether.
TO: Was that a lot by RAF standards?
HK: Well, with the Pathfinders the normal tour was forty-four. You did the normal thirty and then there was another fifteen so we were one short of the total.
TO: How often would you go on a mission would you say?
HK: Sometimes it might be two or three times in a week. Other times it might be sort of a few weeks before we went on an operation, depending possibly on the weather or the targets, I don’t know.
TO: When you were on bombing raids could you ever see the fires below?
HK: I remember seeing when we were over some sort of harbour. I don’t know where it was. I saw one of the ships that appeared to be burning but it might have been a smokescreen. But apart from that I, I don’t remember because, er, we were usually the first in and then away.
TO: So, when, when you did go on missions were you told to — were you generally aiming as you said earlier only for certain targets, like the railways?
HK: Yes, we were always, um, given a briefing like that, not just a town, but definitely some sort of target.
TO: And was there anyone in the crew who just deliberately didn’t pay attention in the briefings?
HK: I can’t say that I know, no.
TO: Because I was just thinking well that if a gunner was at a briefing they probably thought it doesn’t matter what I’m doing. I’ve just got to shoot at the planes.
HK: I suppose they were.
TO: I don’t know.
HK: I suppose the gunners were at the briefings. I can’t remember.
TO: That’s just speculation by me. They might have been very interested but, sorry, it’s just that I think that’s what I would have done if I was a gunner. And what kind of entertainment did you have in the squadron?
HK: In the squadron? I can’t say that I remember much about any entertainment [slight laugh] at all, no. I suppose there must have been some but, no, it’s not something I remember.
TO: Did you ever go out to pubs or dances?
HK: The crew weren’t very, er, pub-minded and neither was I. We did go on some outings, um, some of the crew together. When we were doing the training for Pathfinders we went into Cambridge and out there. In truth there we had more interest in museums, which suited me, yes.
TO: Which museums did you like?
HK: I don’t remember now [laugh] but I remember going to some and — yes.
TO: I was recently in a few museums myself and looking round the Lancaster they have, or rather the Lancaster cabin, that they have at the, in the Imperial War Museum. I think they put it back as far as the navigator’s positon so you can, you can see into where everyone was sitting, sort of thing.
HK: Oh yeah.
TO: And other than the other ones you’ve mentioned to me already were there other missions that you remember very clearly?
HK: I think I’ve told you the ones that, er, I really remember but, um, I can’t say that I remember any others. We were quite fortunate really over all.
TO: You mentioned earlier on that — was it a gunner? One of the gunners shouted, ‘Corkscrew,’ when the plane, the fighter arrived. What kind of basic manoeuvres did the planes have?
HK: Well, we immediately dived and up and around and that’s why it’s called a corkscrew and, anyway we dived in one direction and up in another and so on but, er, we didn’t have to do that much and, as I said, the plane overshot us and —
TO: I remember reading I think that even though the Stirling wasn’t as good as a Lancaster it was decent at turning or something when it came to manoeuvres.
HK: It was too heavy I think.
TO: It was quite good at climbing but wasn’t good at turning or something.
HK: Oh yeah.
TO: Were you ever — was there any time when they brought in new equipment and you were confused by it?
HK: Yes. We had some new equipment, some cathode ray tubes, um, which the bomb aimer used to sit next to the navigator and assist him with the navigating and, er, that was towards the end of the war and, um, I was doing the bomb aiming then.
TO: So, what did you do as a bomb aimer?
HK: Well, the — I merely had to go down into the bay and press the tips when the graticule showed the marker but the bombs were all pre-set to go off at a particular time, um, but that was all done by the bomb aimer. He set up the equipment initially and all I had to do was press the tip when the target came into view.
TO: Was that to drop, release the bombs then?
HK: Yes.
TO: OK and did you do that often?
HK: I did about four or five times towards the end of the war, yes.
TO: And did you find out roughly how much damage the raids were causing?
HK: No, not really, no. We did have pictures taken by the later aircraft going over but I can’t say that I recall.
TO: And was there ever any occasions where your plane had to return early before it reached the target?
HK: No, apart from the fact that once we were all recalled because the target had been overrun by our troops so, um, but no, we, we carried on although I said once when we had the intercom equipment went the — we were told not to use it because the, the rear gunner, pilot were in contact but it was too weak to let anyone else but we decided to carry on anyway.
TO: So, how did the, er, communication work aboard the aircraft?
HK: Well, we had the speakers in the, er, speakers in the helmets plus microphones and you had to switch on the microphone if you wanted to speak. That’s all, pretty well.
TO: Was it very noisy aboard those planes?
HK: It was very noisy, yes, yes. So when we didn’t have the intercom it meant really shouting at the pilot.
TO: Was the noise mainly from the engines?
HK: Yeah.
TO: Were there any other occasions when you went to a target and found it was too cloudy to see the city?
HK: That I can’t really recall now, no.
TO: So, just going back, I’m keen to go back this one, the one over France with the VIs, did you actually get the chance to drop your [emphasis] bombs at the time?
HK: Yes. We did drop them, yep.
TO: So, so if I get this right. So even though you had a hole in the wing you were still able to go on with the mission or had you already dropped them?
HK: No, we hadn’t already dropped them. We were on the bombing run and we did actually drop them but, er, I don’t remember much about it, no.
TO: That’s fine, fine.
HK: I know we had to and I was watching out of the — because in case the wing was moving up and down more than it should but, er, fortunately we didn’t have to — if it had gone [laugh] we wouldn’t have done anything about it anyway.
TO: Would the, er, the pilot of the plane, would he ever be speaking to other aircraft in the squadron?
HK: Would he be?
TO: On the radio, would he ever speak to other aircraft?
HK: I don’t think so. Not generally no, no, I wouldn’t think so, no?
TO: Was it possible to communicate with them?
HK: It would be possible I think [unclear] had the necessary permission to do so. I don’t think it was normal, no.
TO: And did you ever attack coastal targets?
HK: Yes but I don’t remember where but I know we did have some, er, harbours and shipping there.
TO: What did you think of the — I know you weren’t on it — but what did you think of bombers like the Halifax?
HK: Well, some people that, er, flew the Halifax thought they were OK but I, I don’t think they had the — I don’t think they were as good as the Lancaster anyway but it is a matter of opinion.
TO: I do remember reading that a Lanc, a Halifax couldn’t carry a cookie because they didn’t have the space.
HK: Couldn’t carry them because of the load, no.
TO: So, er, did you hear about how — other events of the war, like the invasion of Normandy?
HK: Only on the radio I think. I don’t think we heard a lot internally about what went on.
TO: But when you heard that Normandy had been invaded did you think the war was in its final stages?
HK: Well, certainly thought so. We hadn’t actually started operations then. We were still at the Heavy Conversion Unit when we heard all the planes going over one night and, er, we realised what it was, yes.
TO: So, did you ever drop bombs around Normandy?
HK: Drop bombs?
TO: Around Normandy to help with the invasion?
HK: Oh yes, yes, yes.
TO: Was that area less heavily defended than Germany? Was there less anti-aircraft fire in Normandy than Germany?
HK: Oh yes, less, definitely less.
TO: And did you hear of events like Japan attacking Pearl Harbour?
HK: Heard about it only on the news.
TO: And do, did you ever hear about other cases that happened where, where planes got damaged by overhead bombs?
HK: Not at the time. Although I believe it did happen on occasions.
TO: I know it happened to William Read, one of the VCs in Bomber Command, I think on a Norway mission or something.
HK: Yeah.
TO: And were there, was there anyone you know in your squadron who was shot down and became a prisoner?
HK: I didn’t know of anyone, no.
TO: And at the time of the war were you aware that Bomber Command had a fifty per cent casualty rate?
HK: Bomber Command?
TO: Had a fifty per cent casualty rate?
HK: No. We didn’t know at the time, no.
TO: This is a slightly odd question but if had you known at the time would you have volunteered for the Air Force?
HK: Maybe not but, er, once I was in — yes, it, it became just a job. I didn’t really didn’t take much notice. We didn’t hear of the, the losses at the time. I didn’t realise they were so great.
TO: Do you think they might have been keeping it quiet deliberately?
HK: I think they would, yes. I think that was definitely.
TO: Did you hear about, er, certain stories about the war and just dismissed them as propaganda?
HK: Yes, I’m not sure. I don’t remember any, no.
TO: And was there, was there a, a certain type of single-engine German fighter that was very feared by the crew?
HK: Oh, the Messerschmitt but, um, I didn’t think we were worried one way or the other, no.
TO: [background noise] So I’m just seeing which ones are nice. I’m just seeing which ones are nicer.
HK: [slight laugh] Thanks.
TO: Did you ever regret joining the Air Force?
HK: No. No. It was, in a way it was a university to me.
TO: And when, when you joined the Air Force was it possible, did you get a choice as to what duty, whether you went to Bomber Command or Fighter Command?
HK: It would have been Bomber Command, yes. As I say, when I was called up initially I was trained as a flight mechanic and, er, it was mainly for the Bomber Command.
TO: Do you remember when you receiv— received your call-up papers?
HK: Well, I only vaguely remember, yeah.
TO: And do you think there was a reason why, do you think there might have been a certain reason why you were put in the RAF and not the Army?
HK: I don’t know whether it was the education at the time. I don’t know. It may have had something to do with it, yes.
TO: Do you think you were properly trained enough before you were sent on missions?
HK: I think so. We had quite a good training, yes.
TO: And did you feel ready for war when it finished?
HK: Yes, I think so, yes.
TO: And were you ever stationed anywhere other than Britain?
HK: No, no.
TO: Do you know of anyone who was sent abroad?
HK: I know that some in [beep noise] [unclear] Association Branch were abroad. I didn’t know at the time but heard about it afterwards.
TO: And were you ever escorted by allied fighters?
HK: Only, only once I remember. That was when we were coming back on three engines. The rear gunner said, ‘There’s two single-engine aircraft approaching from the starboard quarter.’ But only a couple of seconds later he said, ‘It’s alright, they’re Spitfires.’ And one of them did escort us back to the coast.
TO: Do you think maybe the pilot of that Spitfire could see the damage on your plane?
HK: Probably. Well, could see we’d only three engines going, yeah.
TO: I think there was one time, I was reading about it recently, during the war a German fighter actually saw a damaged American bomber and deliberately decided not to attack it because he could see how damaged it was and let it fly back. How did you actually feel about Germany during the war?
HK: Well, we knew it was the enemy and we had to do what we were instructed to do. I didn’t really think much about it at the time.
TO: Did you ever feel animosity against the German people?
HK: No. I can’t say that I did.
TO: Were any of your airfields ever attacked by German bombers?
HK: Not while I was there, no.
TO: And did any of the airfields ever run short of bombs or fuel?
HK: I don’t know, no.
TO: Sorry, I’m asking difficult questions here. And how many squadrons were you in during the war?
HK: Well, operational squadrons, two. That was 467 Squadron at Waddington and then 97 Squadron at Coningsby.
TO: Were there any times when actually your bombers were asked to attack German armies?
HK: The armies, German armies?
TO: Yeah.
HK: No, I don’t think so, no.
TO: And do you remember if the airfields you were stationed at had anti-aircraft defences?
HK: I think they must have done but I can’t say definitely.
TO: After Dunkirk were people in Britain afraid that Hitler would invade?
HK: I think they were yes, yes. Yes, we were very fortunate with the, er, the Battle of Britain fighters.
TO: Do you actually feel glad that you’d been put in the RAF?
HK: I what?
TO: Glad you were called up for the RAF?
HK: Glad it wasn’t the Army. Yes, certainly.
TO: Do you know anyone who was in or have any friends who were in the Army?
HK: I didn’t know anyone though definitely there were some from school who were in the Army, yes, joined the Army. Also at the time I think quite a few of them were called up for the RAF but I didn’t keep in contact.
TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war?
HK: Possibly what was known as the Battle of the Bulge was quite important at the time but I can’t say that I knew much about it at that time. I only read about it later.
TO: Was there heavy snow in Britain at that time?
HK: There was quite a lot of snow. We had to clear the aircraft and the runways.
TO: Did that ever effect operations much?
HK: I think it must have done to a certain extent but I don’t know details.
TO: OK. So what do you think was the best plane that the RAF had, in general?
HK: Well, as far as the Bomber Command was concerned the Lancaster but of course during the early part of the war the Hurricanes and Spitfires were the best.
TO: Did you know much about Wellington bombers?
HK: I didn’t know much about them, no.
TO: Was there ever any bullying in the Air Force?
HK: What?
TO: Bullying.
HK: What? Sorry I’m not with you.
TO: Was there any bullying in the Air force?
HK: Bullying? I didn’t know of any. No, I can’t say that I did.
TO: And were there particular songs the crew liked to sing at all?
HK: There was one that the bomb-aimer came out with. It was an Australian one presumably. I don’t know if you’ve heard it. It was about a — yes, something like “I put my finger in a woodpecker’s hole. The woodpecker said, ‘God bless my soul, take it out, take it out, remove it.’”And then it was, “Put it back, put it back, replace it” and it went on like that but I’ve never heard it before or since.
TO: I’m afraid I’ve never heard of it. [slight laugh] I guess I was lucky. Was most of your, was anyone else in the crew Australian?
HK: They were all Australian, yes.
TO: And did they, did anyone bring any kind of souvenirs aboard the plane, like personal possessions?
HK: I don’t know of any, no.
TO: Were you allowed to, I don’t know, decorate your own plane at all, that you could bring, I don’t know, if you wanted to bring an ornament with you could you bring that onto the plane?
HK: We could have done, yes, yes. The only things we were not allowed to take was money or things that could, um, easily tell the captors if we had to bail out where we’d come from, in case we had to try and have an identity of some other country.
TO: Were you ever told what you — did the RAF ever tell you how much information you could give if you were ever captured?
HK: Yeah. Name, rank and number. That was all we were supposed to say. [pause]
TO: So, when did the Lancaster actually become the main bomber of the RAF?
HK: It started in 1942 and it gradually built up from there so it was definitely the main plane of Bomber Command by the end of the war.
TO: What did you think of the bombers the Americans were using?
HK: Well, they — I think they did quite a good job but the aircraft weren’t any patch on the Lancasters. They couldn’t carry the, the load but, er, going as they did all alone at daytime I think they were very brave to do it.
TO: Did, er, did your squadron ever try and fly in formation when you were on missions?
HK: No, no formation. I know that when we went on to the daylight raids we were just more or less in a gaggle, not as a formation.
TO: Were there any ever any times when a bomb you were carrying failed to be released?
HK: Yes, there was one, which unfortunately got stuck up and we brought it back. We didn’t realise it at the time but no, no damage was done.
TO: So, what did they do with that bomb then?
HK: Oh, released it. It was up to the armourers. I think they released it and took it away. I don’t know what happened to it. It was a five hundred pounder apparently.
TO: Did you ever attack ships at all while they were at sea?
HK: Not at sea, no.
TO: [background noise] Sorry, you’ve answered a lot of my questions. I’m just trying to find some other ones. Did anyone, did the pilot try and tell anyone what would happen if he ever happened to get killed?
HK: Well, I was the one that had to take over it as necessary and I on training flights I was able to take over the controls and keep the plane more or less straight and level although the rear gunner said when I did it was more like a switchback [slight laugh]. But that was all.
TO: So, did the Lancaster have two steering columns or just one?
HK: No, we just had the one so I would have had to get the pilot out of the, his seat and get in myself.
TO: Was he allowed to teach you to do that?
HK: Yes.
TO: And would you have been able to land it at all?
HK: I don’t know [laugh]. I wasn’t taught how to do that.
TO: So, I’m just a bit puzzled why, why wouldn’t they teach you to land if you ever happened take over. It seems to kind of defeat the object of teaching —
HK: I think it was just that I had to try and keep it in the air while the rest of the crew got out.
TO: How did it feel to be in control of the plane though when you had it?
HK: I quite enjoyed it.
TO: Did you get a sense of pride doing that?
HK: Yes.
TO: What’s your best memory of your time during the war?
HK: I suppose the best memory was, um, when I heard that I was medically fit to fly.
TO: So, er, do you remember why they turned you down during your first medical test?
HK: I was slightly short sighted in one eye. At the time, um, that was quite important but it ceased to be important when I wanted to be a flight engineer, although as I ended up doing bomb aiming I don’t know. [laugh]
TO: Well did it ever, did your eyesight ever effect your performance?
HK: No, no. It wasn’t bad enough.
TO: Do you know whether the gunners had to have the same education as the other members of the aircraft?
HK: I don’t think they did, no. I’m sure they didn’t.
TO: Did you ever meet any famous people during the war as in senior commanders or leaders?
HK: I don’t remember, no.
TO: Did you listen to the radio very much?
HK: Quite a bit, yeah.
TO: And again, sorry for asking you this, but was the scariest thing that happened to you during the war?
HK: I think it was when the bombs came through the wing, yes.
TO: Did you think the plane was going to crash or did you think it could survive?
HK: I wasn’t sure whether the wing was going to fall off or not [slight laugh] but, er, so we were fortunate. Another few inches one way or the other it would have hit the front or rear spar.
TO: So, how far, how close to the fuselage was the hole?
HK: Well, it wasn’t very far away. It was the inner engine that got hit or just behind the inner engine. No, it couldn’t happen at a better place actually [slight laugh].
TO: And did it send a big shock wave through the aircraft when that happened?
HK: Well, certainly, yes. There was a big thump, yes.
TO: And when they said the Lancaster was overhead was everyone expecting a bomb?
HK: Well, we were expecting it but we didn’t have any time to do any manoeuvres. As soon as the mid-upper called out we heard the bumps. That was it.
TO: Did you think for a minute you might have to bail out?
HK: I thought that might be a possibility, yeah.
TO: And what about when you saw the German night fighter?
HK: Well, we were glad to see it disappear but, er, yes —
TO: Is there anything else you can add about that mission, about where you were going at the time?
HK: No. I can’t really remember.
TO: That’s fine. So, when — you mentioned as the flight engineer you might have to take over from the plane sometimes. Was it hard to learn how to take over or was it quite easy?
HK: No. We had training on the Link trainer so I knew what to do.
TO: So, did you volunteer for the Pathfinders or were you assigned?
HK: I heard after the war that the pilot, my pilot, had volunteered because he got extra pay for being — but whether that was true or not I don’t know but yes he volunteered first and we all agreed to go.
TO: Did you get extra pay for that?
HK: I think we did but I can’t remember that but I think we did.
TO: What was the average pay in the RAF?
HK: It was a few shillings a day I think. I don’t remember that, no. I know some people can remember these details but I don’t.
TO: That’s fine. And how do you feel about Japan and Germany today for the war?
HK: I think we should have lost the war [laugh] and we would have been better off than — yes. I don’t know.
TO: And why do you think that?
HK: Well, Germany and Japan seem to have done very well but—
TO: And do you think the war was worth the price?
HK: Sorry?
TO: Do you think the war was worth the price?
HK: Probably wasn’t but I don’t know how things would have turned out if it —
TO: And what did you think of the memorial that they built in Green Park a few years ago?
HK: It’s a very good memorial, certainly. I wasn’t able to go up to the unveiling.
TO: They’re having a service in a couple of weekends there and going to be recording that as well. Did you hear about the holocaust?
HK: I can’t say I did during the war, no.
TO: And do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly after the war?
HK: I certainly think so, yes. I think Harris was given a bad, was bad, er, treated badly. That was — everyone thought Dresden was his idea but in fact it came direct from Churchill originally.
TO: Did you ever happen to meet Harris after the war?
HK: No, no.
TO: And do you think the RAF played a critical role in Britain’s victory?
HK: Oh, definitely, yes.
TO: And do you think there was anything that happened to you during the war which affected you later in your life? [beeping sound]
HK: Oh, yes. I think the fact that, um, I did some technical training during my life in the RAF was — before I was called up I was working at the, er, an accounts department in Electrics Supply but after the war I wanted to do something more technical and the GEC were advertising for people in their, um, research laboratories in Wembley and I applied and joined and came a patent agent so, yes, it made quite a bit of difference.
TO: And what did you do in your career after that?
HK: Well I trained as — initially I got a science degree and did the patent office, patent agent examination and I actually stayed with the research laboratories, um, until I, my official retirement and then I went on a couple of days a week after that until they moved the whole thing to Chelmsford and I decided that was enough.
TO: And, sorry to ask this, but what, what was the saddest thing you’d say that happened during the war?
HK: During the war? That I can’t really say. I suppose the saddest thing was, um, losing a very close cousin, who I was sort of brought up with, and caught diabetes and there wasn’t so much they could do about it at the time and she died. But that was during the war. It wasn’t anything to do with the war itself. I don’t know of anything connected with the war but it was so sad.
TO: And do you remember what you were doing the day the war ended?
HK: Yes. I was at, stationed at Coningsby, um, then we were sent home on leave, um, but the rest of the crew as they were all Australian were called back before me to be sent back to Australia, so I never really got a chance to say a proper goodbye, and it was only after the war when I went to Perth and saw the rear gunner’s name in the telephone directory that I got in touch with him. So, I don’t know if there’s anything else.
TO: So did everyone who were on that bomber meet again would you say?
HK: No, no.
TO: Did you get involved in any of the VE Day celebrations?
HK: No. I don’t remember any, no.
TO: Or did you listen to Churchill’s victory speech?
HK: I’m sure I did, yes, but I can’t remember it.
TO: Were you bothered by the fact that he didn’t mention Bomber Command?
HK: He what, sorry?
TO: In Churchill’s victory speech he didn’t mention Bomber Command.
HK: Oh yeah. I read about that afterwards, yes.
TO: But did that bother you when you heard the speech?
HK: Well, I can’t say I remember if I heard the speech. I must have missed it. I don’t know.
TO: And how do you feel today about your war-time service?
HK: Well, my particular service, I think I was quite fortunate and overall I had quite a reasonable time.
TO: Have you ever watched any films about the war?
HK: Some, certainly, yes.
TO: And what do you think of them?
HK: Some of them are quite good otherwise some aren’t.
TO: Any ones in particular that you liked?
HK: I think the one, the first one about “The Dambusters” was excellent, yes.
TO: And, er, do you think the atomic bombs were necessary against Japan?
HK: I think overall probably, yes, but if it had gone on we would have lost many more people, both Japanese and American and our country, so I suppose it, it was necessary. I think in a way it was a pity because it really put a shadow on nuclear reactors. I think if it hadn’t happened there wouldn’t have been quite an outcry on reactors that there is today.
TO: Were you involved in nuclear reactors after the war?
HK: Not directly but, um, the — our department was involved in patents for nuclear reactors and they did quite a bit of work.
TO: And, er, how do you feel about Britain’s involvement in events like Iraq and Afghanistan?
HK: In?
TO: In Afghanistan and Iraq?
HK: I think we probably should have kept out. I don’t think it really helps in any way. I just think it’s just made things worse.
TO: Is there anything you want to add at all about you war-time service?
HK: No, I don’t think so. I was quite fortunate overall and had quite a reasonable time.
TO: OK. Or is there anything you want to add which was important to you at the time which you‘ve not mentioned?
HK: No, I don’t think so, no.
TO: OK. Well, er, thank you very much for telling me about your experiences. It was really fascinating.
HK: I hope it’s not been a bit too boring. I couldn’t remember lots of things.
TO: It’s not boring at all. It’s amazing. No, no. What you could remember is amazing. Can I just, er, there is something I showed to another RAF veteran and you can either read yourself or if you want I can read it out for you now. This is a speech that Arthur Harris gave at an RAF reunion in 1977.
HK: Oh right.
TO: And he just basically talks about the role, basically pointing out, explaining what Bomber Command did and why it was so important now. If you like I can read it out but if you’d rather read it yourself out in your own time you can, whichever you prefer.
HK: Can I?
TO: Yes. You can read it out now if you want.
HK: Well, can I keep this?
TO: Of course. That’s why I bought it for you.
HK: Right, thank you.
TO: If you want to read it now you can or if you want me to read it out I can, whichever.
HK: Yeah. Well, I’d like to read it later.
TO: OK. OK. Right, thank you very much.
HK: Not at all.
TO: Sorry, I should have explained at the start, er, as an introduction that I’m supposed to do but because I was, because I was getting so many interviews done I forgot it. I just wanted to end by saying that we’ve recorded this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. My name’s Thomas Ozel and we were interviewing Mr Harold Kirby in London on the 10th of June 2016. Sorry, that’s the 11th of June. Thank you for this.
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AKirbyHVA160611
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Interview with Harold Kirby. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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02:04:49 audio recording
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Pending review
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Tom Ozel
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2016-06-11
Description
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Harold Kirby grew up in London and worked in an accounts department before joining the Royal Air Force. He served as a fitter with 460 Squadron at RAF Binbrook before remustering as a flight engineer. He flew two tours of operations with 467, 97 and 156 Squadrons. He describes the Stirling that was used for training and also the Lancaster in which he flew on operations. He also describes the preparations before an operation and the procedure for landing. He explains how window and how flares were used by the Pathfinders. Harold gives an account of an incident where his Lancaster was damaged by another Lancaster dropping its bombs from above but otherwise says his crew were very fortunate. After the war, he worked as a patent agent until he retired.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Christine Kavanagh
156 Squadron
460 Squadron
467 Squadron
97 Squadron
aircrew
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
briefing
flight engineer
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
military ethos
Pathfinders
RAF Binbrook
RAF Coningsby
RAF Waddington
Stirling
target indicator
training
V-1
V-weapon
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1165/11730/ATownsleyH180314.1.mp3
24a47333c28c33c487d7aace5982444b
Dublin Core
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Title
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Townsley, Henry
H Townsley
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Henry Townsley DFM (b. 1920, 994575 Royal Air Force), a memoir, list of operations and artwork. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 97 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Henry Townsley and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-03-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Townsley, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: I’ll just do the introduction. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 14th of March 2018 and I’m in Diseworth near Derby, talking to Henry Townsley DFM, about his life and times as a flight engineer. So Henry, what are your earliest recollections of life.
HT: Well, I think being born at a place called Harrington, Workington. I was born there in 1920.
CB: And what do you remember about that?
HT: Well, I can remember it being quite depressing in those days, a lot of unemployment.
CB: What was the main local employment?
HT: Well, steel working, place called Moss Bay was a steel plant and It was iron and steel. Of course it was, there was quite a bit of coal mining and the mining of the ore at Egremont, a few mile away and then there was the land so we had all the ingredients for the ore in the area.
CB: Right. And what did your father do?
HT: Well, my father was the, was a chauffeur for quite a long, got the chauffeur uniform, many years, yeah.
CB: SO there was the town, but fairly countrified as well.
HT: A town of twenty six thousand.
CB: Was it? Right.
HT: Yeah, so it was fairly large town.
CB: And where did you go to school?
HT: Ordinary elementary school until I was fourteen. And then of course I left school and I think perhaps I was in the air force before I started other things moving.
CB: And when you left school at fourteen you must have gone to something else. What did you do?
HT: Well, I, at fourteen I left school, went into a local garage as a vehicle fitter, to serve an apprenticeship as a vehicle fitter. Quite a large garage, there were six, employed there, six craftsmen, so it was quite large: Whitehaven.
CB: In Whitehaven.
HT: Whitehaven.
CB: Yeah. And this is 1934.
HT: Yes.
CB: So that’s a long way off the war. What, did you keep working there or did you do something else?
HT: Yes, until I was seventeen. And, until, unitl the war started. I was there until war started, yes.
CB: Okay, and did you do any more education while you were working in the garage?
HT: No, I didn’t do any of that.
CB: Did you do any night school?
HT: No. No, no didn’t do any night school. It was after I left there.
CB: So you, when the war started in ’39 what did you do?
HT: ’39? Well I was actually working in this garage at that time. I just forget now what, yeah, what I just.
CB: I think we’ll stop, just for a mo.
HT: Yes, it’s just a blank there really.
CB: Okay.
HT: I was on the water vessel Chesapeake, a tanker, ten thousand ton and that sailed form Swansea, in South Wales, and I was a junior engineer, there were three. Three juniors, and there was the three senior engineers and I believe there is a chief engineer, on the water vessel Chesapeake.
CB: And that was ten thousand tons.
HT: Ten thousand tonnes, yes.
CB: How did you get into that?
HT: Well, I er, well, I was working in this garage, I think I said, at Whitehaven at that time.
CB: Yes.
HT: And one of the customers, his brother in law was the engineer, chief engineer on the ship. That’s how I started, the customer coming in this garage where I was. [Laugh] He was, he was of course working as a second engineer he was at the time, and of course he was the bloke who pushed me in.
CB: Was he?
HT: Yeah. The Anglo American Oil Company.
CB: Oh yes. And what was real the tipping point that made you want to join the Merchant Navy?
HT: I think perhaps the fact that the, my family were seafaring, before me, so, my mother’s family were all seafaring. And it was, it was that what, it was my mother’s side of the family, not my father’s were seafaring people, and so that’s why I joined the, the Navy.
CB: Before that, when you were working in the garage, then you were studying engineering. At night school.
HT: Well yes.
CB: What was that course?
HT: [Telephone] It was the Workington Technical College. Yeah. On the National Course.
CB: Right.
HT: ONC.
CB: Yup.
HT: The Ordinary National Course.
CB: And did that specialise in a particular type of engineering? Was it marine?
HT: Engineering. Several types of engineering. Several types.
CB: Yes. Was it, any of it in construction or was it all in vehicles and ships?
HT: Well vehicle engineering, yeah.
CB: Yes. So when you joined the Merchant Navy, what did they do about training you, about shipping engineering?
HT: Well, I will have had to sit me tickets for me certificates there, you know. But of course as I say, I didn’t, I wasn’t there long, only a few months, and then, of course, I moved into the air force.
CB: So what prompted you to volunteer to join the RAF?
HT: Well, I wasn’t too keen on the sea: I was sick! [Laugh] So it didn’t agree with me constitution! So that was the main reason. [Laugh] Had I been able to stand the sea sickness I would have stuck it! That’s why I didn’t stick it. Quite obvious!
CB: Well you might have joined the Army, what made you join the RAF?
HT: The air force well, I think it was the chance of flying really, yeah, it was the senior one of the two. Aero engineering was the, seemingly the coming thing, of course naturally I felt okay, seems to be the thing to go for.
CB: Did you get recruited immediately for aircrew, or were you recruited for ground crew to begin with?
HT: Oh, for on the ground, yeah.
CB: So what was the course that you did?
HT: Oh, I don’t know exactly, I did engineering courses, on the ground, yeah. I did several courses on the ground before I moved, yeah.
CB: And where did you go for that?
HT: [Laugh] Locally, it wasn’t too far out of, I just forget now, but it was somewhere local, you know.
CB: Well if you were, if your ship was based in South Wales did you go to St. Athan?
HT: Yes, I did some courses there, at St. Athan, South Wales, yeah, yes, certainly. You know you’ve left it a bit late. Mind is not as quick as it was.
CB: You’re doing okay. So they were training you initially to be on engines was it or - ?
HT: Yes. Yes.
CB: Okay. Engine mechanic.
HT: Engine, yeah. Engine fitter I think.
CB: Right.
HT: Was it? I’m not sure if it was fitter or a mechanic, I think it was fitter. I did a fitters course.
CB: Yep. Okay.
HT: So I may have done both. I have a feeling I did a mechanics course, have you got it, flat mechanic? And then I went back and did a fitters course which was three months, three or four months there were, during the war.
CB: Yup.
HT: So I did both courses. So I was a fitter, a fitter engines.
CB: So we are talking about your joining in April 1940.
HT: Yeah.
CB: And things were warming up then, in the war.
HT: That’s true, that’s true.
CB: So what prompted you to become -
HT: Aircrew.
CB: Aircrew.
HT: [Laughter] Now then. I suppose there, the fact that there was fairly quick promotion really, you know! Was probably one of the things that did it!
CB: And more money.
HT: If it hadn’t been for the promotion and that, I might not have done it! But they were all, you were pushed up to sergeant you see. So of course, naturally, that was the recruiting agent for aircrew.
CB: For flight engineers.
HT: You all had the rank of sergeant, yeah. That’s, yeah, that’s all I think. You got the pay with it, so.
CB: So you were well schooled already in the basics of automotive engineering and then aero engineering.
HT: Well, I’d been, the, in working, yeah, on ordinary car engines for some years.
CB: Yeah, quite.
HT: Five years probably, five or six years.
CB: Six years.
HT: So I was well based in the base of engineering.
CB: Yeah. And when you came to volunteer for flight engineer you had a different training from the ground engineer. What do you remember about that?
HT: Training about the flight engineer. I every, fortnight’s training,
CB: Oh.
HT: [laugh] For me anyway, it was a fortnight’s training for me, and that was it.
CB: Right.
HT: As a, at my particular status, all I had to do was a couple of weeks.
CB: Right.
HT: I passed them and was through. Others had to do three months.
CB: Yes.
HT: Particularly a fitter 2A, if he was only an airframe.
CB: Yes.
HT: Only did the airframes and not the engines. But if he’d been a 2AR just. In those days, yeah, an airframe fitter, he had to do an engine course.
CB: Yeah.
HT: So his course was three or four months you see.
CB: Yes. And you’d already –
HT: But I was already an engine fitter so I only had minute training to do you see.
CB: So on the aircraft that you were, you were being trained to fly in four engine bombers.
HT: Lancaster, yes.
CB: Yes. Stirling, Halifax and Lancaster.
HT: Yes, that’s right, I did a bit on Stirlings, yes.
CB: So -
HT: I may have done one trip on Halifaxes, which I think I did, one. But I did a few on Stirlings, I did a few trips on Stirlings, probably six or eight and then on, moved on to the Lancaster. You know, finish the training.
CB: Yeah. Just going back to this earlier training for flight engineer. You were already proficient on the mechanical side, of engines.
HT: Yes, absolutely.
CB: So what were the other aspects that you needed to focus on for flight engineer?
HT: For flight engineer well, there was the airframe side of the aircraft.
CB: Yup.
HT: Which I had to know a little about.
CB: Hydraulics.
HT: Yes, hydraulics. Well of course, yes the undercarriage, yes. But mainly, well the airframe is part of the airframe you see. So I had to be reasonably, have a reasonable idea about the airframe side of the aircraft as well.
CB: Yep. And then the electrics of course, and electronics.
HT: Yes, electrics, yes. Oh yes. They were part, involved with the engine side as well.
CB: Right. Okay. So from your training at St. Athan, then where did you go after that?
HT: Yes, I was trained at St. Athan, and, I don’t know it’s down -
CB: So then you moved on to Swinderby.
HT: Swinderby, yeah, that’s in Lincolnshire, yes.
CB: And according to your log book, you were flying in the Manchester.
HT: That’s right.
CB: What was that like?
HT: That was a twin engined Lancaster, really.
CB: Right.
HT: The same, the same airframe as a Lanc, but twin engines, that was the Lancaster. That was the Lancaster, yes.
CB: The basis for the Lanc. The Manchester was the basis for the Lancaster.
HT: Basis for the Lanc.
CB: And were the systems the same on that, in both aeroplanes?
HT: Yes, pretty well. yeah. Yes.
CB: So you went on to Swinderby, and then what did you do?
HT: Well I moved from Swinderby on to a squadron. On to 97 Squadron. Is that right there?
CB: Right. Well, it looks as though you went to Winthorpe. You went to Woodhall Spa, on to the Lancaster.
HT: Yeah.
CB: From Swinderby.
HT: Yeah.
CB: We’ll just stop there for a mo.
CB: [Cough] So we’ll take this in bites. So is it, better for you to - do you need your glasses? Is it better for you to have look at this or I’ll just take you through?
HT: Yes, I can go through.
CB: But here, [cough] as you say, [cough] 94 Squadron, at Woodhall Spa.
HT: 97.
CB: 97 squadron I meant to say.
HT: Yes, yes.
CB: And from there you did quite a few ops.
HT: That’s right.
CB: Yeah. So we’ll just go on from there.
HT: So poor old Munro he got killed, yes.
CB: So his name was Munro was it?
HT: Yeah, Munro, the pilot, yeah.
CB: You were going to say, Jessie.
[Other]: I was going to say, yeah. There’s a couple of things that I found interesting, that you said, when we was at the Battle of Britain Anniversary, you spoke about the lights that came up that dazzled you. Do you remember those lights?
CB: Oh, searchlights?
HT: Yeah. That’s right
[Other]: The searchlights that dazzled you. We was, we was all sat round listening how you got out of such, such a situation.
HT: Absolutely, yeah!
[Other]: You was diving, diving to get out of the searchlight. Which was amazing!
CB: Right. Yeah.
CB: Was that the first or second tour?
HT: Well there was a time when we were, coned as it were.
CB: Let’s just cover that. So I’ll just ask you a question, you can tell me. [Pause] Having talked about your activities on the raids, on the ops, what, what would happen, as we talked about you going near the target. What was the most difficult thing about being near the target?
HT: Well, it was just the, the flak, you know, over the target area then you were getting all the flak, that they were shooting up all around, you see.
CB: But how did they identify where you were?
HT: Well, they could see us.
CB: What, with searchlights?
HT: Above, well, yeah.
CB: So what were the searchlights like?
HT: Well they were quite bright, they were quite good, the searchlights.
CB: Hmm. And so.
HT: So what happened, if the, one searchlight caught us, then they put another on, and then another [laugh] so they cone us in searchlights, and then, they would shoot, up in to the searchlights. So he wasn’t very happy, it wasn’t very happy when they did that.
CB: Right.
HT: Yes, that’s what happened, that was.
CB: So, so what did the pilot do about it?
HT: Well all we can do, if we were at reasonable height: we could - down. The only thing we could do. Down! [Laugh]
CB: And how did he go about that?
HT: Well he just did [emphasis] that.
CB: What, vertical?
HT: In effect.
CB: Would he put it –
HT: Down as quick as we could.
CB: Would he put it into a vertical –
HT: Nose down and down as quick as we could! Got out, yeah, it was the only way to do.
CB: And how far would he go down to do that?
HT: Oh, probably a thousand feet, if possible. Maybe not. Maybe.
CB: More than that?
HT: Maybe. No, we wouldn’t go any further than that. But we’d get out of it about, probably have to go down to a thousand to make it out.
CB: To one thousand feet, or by one thousand feet?
HT: One thousand feet.
CB: Down.
HT: Down to one thousand feet.
CB: To [emphasis] one thousand. Having got there, then what did he do? Continue flying at a thousand feet or did he - ?
HT: Oh yes, until we got out of the flak area, till we got out of the area, you know, the flak area and then we would rise.
CB: This is on the way to the target?
HT: Yeah. Yes.
CB: What I’m getting at is did you get coned on the way to the target, or only at [emphasis] the target?
HT: Well, you’re talking about the target, when we’re over the actual target. Dropping the bombs.
CB: Yes.
CB: Well, it wasn’t really often, you know, that we dropped right down to the bottom.
CB: No. Not then.
HT: Not then, no.
CB: No. Because you’d get bombed. So could you see other aeroplanes near you?
HT: Oh yes. Yeah.
CB: In the dark?
HT: Yes.
CB: Because of the fires was it?
HT: Well, er yes. The fires would light it all up. Yeah. Yeah, oh yes, you could see some of the aircraft.
CB: And when the fighters came to attack you, that was outside the target area was it?
HT: Generally, yes. They could attack us in the target area. But generally yes, you were out, outside.
CB: So when you are flying along and you’re not filling in your log book, what are you doing?
HT: Er, not filling in the log book?
CB: Not filling in the log.
HT: Well generally I’d check -
CB: The flight log.
HT: I’d check. Used to check, often, not indiscriminately, often.
CB: Yeah.
HT: Probably every ten minutes or quarter of an hour at least.
CB: And what are you actually checking?
HT: Well, check the oil gauges for pressure and, for temperature, check the gauges for temperature and pressure mainly, you know. Yeah. And then there’s the fuel, the coolant, you know, the coolant system, you got to check that, that. Yeah. Yes.
CB: And to what extent are you helping as a lookout?
HT: I was a lookout, yeah, quite a lot, I would say yes. Definitely.
CB: And what are you, are you looking out for fighters or are you looking out for other bombers getting too close?
HT: Well both. Any aircraft that’s going to get in the way, or a, or a fighter.
CB: Yeah.
HT: Oh yes. You keep a check out for any bother, anything. Make sure you’re clear of it.
CB: So how often did you have to move out of the way of other bombers?
HT: Well, it depended, you know, on circumstances, where you were, where you’re flying. It depends, if you were in a jumble, if you’re in an area where you’re jumbled up, landing, it’s something like that, you’ve got to keep a check.
CB: What would you say was the most vivid experience you had of being on an operation, on a raid?
HT: Well, I’ve got a thought, but I don’t know, it, quite a few. I’ve left it too long you see.
CB: Yes. I’m sure, yeah. We’ll stop there for a mo.
HT: That’s going, isn’t it that, Air Marshal.
CB: Now, 97 Squadron was a standard bombing squadron, but at one stage then it became Pathfinder. What happened there?
HT: That’s right. Pathfinder, yeah.
CB: Yes. What happened there?
HT: Yes, it was a top squadron. 97, alongside 617, we were there together on the same base, 97, on the same [emphasis] base.
CB: At Woodhall Spa.
The Dambusters were at Woodhall Spa on the same base.
CB: And from Woodhall Spa the squadron then moved to Bourne, why did it do that?
HT: Bourne. Move to Bourne.
CB: In Cambridgeshire.
HT: That would be after the war was it?
CB: That was 19, May 1943. This is because the Pathfinder operation was transferred to there.
HT: I can’t say I, I forget a lot you know.
CB: Yeah.
HT: It went on, yeah.
CB: Okay stop there.
HT: I forget, a lot of the things, I’ve forgotten.
CB: Of course.
HT: But generally, some of the, quite a bit I remember you know, after the stint I did.
CB: So in your Pathfinding then, in July ’43, your pilot, Munro, was awarded the DFC.
HT: Yes.
CB: Any other members of the crew awarded a distinction?
HT: I just forget, now let’s see. I think the navigator, I think he got a, an award, navigator. Yeah, the navigator, and the bomb aimer and the pilot all got awards before the rest of us. The bombing team should we say. They’re the bombing team.
CB: Yeah.
HT: The bomb aimer, the navigator and the pilot. Depended entirely on them, when the bomb was dropped, as a team.
CB: Were they officers, or only the pilot?
HT: Well. some were officers, some were pilots. Some were, I think generally on my second crew I was the only one, that was, I was a warrant officer all the rest were officers.
C: Were they.
HT: That’s in the second crew, yeah. And of course the first crew, well I, after about two or three months, three of them were commissioned. So I never bothered, you know, it didn’t worry me. I made it through, I made it through, I didn’t bother.
CB: The pay was all right?
HT: Oh yeah, I was happy. I wasn’t bothered at all. So er, and I wasn’t pushed, I wasn’t pushed to be responsible for anything. So I was happy, and I mean the commission that I may have had would have had some responsibility pushed on to me, you know, but I wasn’t, so, so I didn’t.
CB: So, just keeping on the first tour, and the crew, how did they gel together?
HT: The first crew, that was Munro the pilot, and Hill the rear gunner, Bennett the mid upper gunner, and er, there was -
CB: Signaller?
HT: Watson the bomb aimer.
CB: Watson.
HT: Yeah. Suswain he was the Suswain, the first was the first bomb aimer was Suswain, in me first crew, Watson was the second crew bomb aimer.
CB: What about the flight, the wireless operator?
HT: Yeah. the wireless operator was, just forget now, the er, one of them was only an NCO, was only a flight sergeant. A warrant officer probably.
CB: But when you joined the first crew, that was at the Heavy Conversion Unit.
HT: Munro. All sergeants together.
CB: Yeah. But how did they get on as a crew? ‘Cause you joined when they were already a crew.
HT: Well Munro. When I joined we were all sergeants, and they moved ahead, and Munro undoubtedly got, was commissioned first, whilst we were flying together. Three were commissioned, there was Munro was commissioned, the navigator was commissioned and the bomb aimer was commissioned. And that was it. Three. So they were what they called the bombing team. They were responsible for dropping the bomb, you see. That’s why they commissioned them.
CB: Right.
HT: ‘Cause navigator, pilot, and the bomb aimer. They worked as a team, together.
CB: Yes.
HT: So of course that was an excellent team.
CB: Hmm. And socially, how did the crew get on together?
HT: Quite well, on the, on my crews I can’t remember any, any obstruction in any way. We all hit it off pretty well.
CB: What did you do for relaxation?
HT: Oh well, I, that’s easy, I can tell you, normally we had a drink, you know, occasionally, not tremendously, but occasionally, we would have a drink, as a crew, to get together, be together.
CB: Was that in pubs, or - ?
HT: Eh?
CB: In pubs or on the airfield?
HT: Oh that’s outside. In the evening probably. In a pub, in the local, you know. We rarely bothered, rarely had a drink on the airfield.
CB: Right.
HT: We always used to move out to have a drink.
CB: What was the accommodation like?
HT: The accommodation wasn’t too good at Coningsby, too large a base. But er, wasn’t too good.
CB: So what were you housed in?
HT: I was in the, I was in the sergeants mess, the sergeants part, I was lucky. I had a room of me own! I used to come out of my room, walk along the passage and I’d be in the bar. [laugh] That was a mess, the sergeants mess, so I was lucky at Coningsby. My room was next door, next door to the bar! Well, I came out of me place, then along to the right and there I was in the bar area.
CB: And when you went to Woodhall Spa, what was the accommodation like there?
HT: Well that was, what I was saying, it was a permanent accommodation, you see, permanent mess, you know, everything was peacetime establishment and I was, my room, I had a, there were rooms along, there were passages along you see.
CB: Yes.
HT: Outside the main area and I was in one of the rooms. I was in the nearest to the bar.
CB: This is Coningsby and your second tour.
HT: Coningsby, yeah.
CB: But in your first tour -
HT: Yeah.
CB: You were at Woodhall Spa. So, what accommodation did you have there?
HT: Oh, nissen huts [laugh], nissen huts. Old nissen huts.
CB: The whole crew’s there. How many crews in a nissen hut?
HT: Oh that one.
CB: One each?
HT: One crew would be in a nissen hut, yeah, oh yeah. Sometimes you were split, you know, sometimes you might have, you were spit up. But that was where they was a satellite airfield. Coningsby was permanent, you see, the structure there.
CB: Hmm.
HT: Yeah. Oh yeah, we were split.
CB: What about the food?
HT: Yeah, the food. I would say was reasonable, I can’t complain. The food was reasonable.
CB: Lots of fry ups?
HT: I think the food was fair, fairly good, off hand, yeah, from what I can see, particularly at Coningsby, in the sergeants mess. It was supposedly better than the officers so, there we go, [laugh] so they reckoned anyway. They reckoned so. Some of the lads that were commissioned, you know, and left the sergeants mess, they told us it were bloody rubbish in the officers mess. They were worse off, worse off, they could be, I agree. Yes.
CB: So at the end of your first tour, then you were rested, effectively.
HT: Six month. I decided I’d be off six month and I had six months off.
CB: Yeah. So your six months off was at a Heavy Conversion Unit at Winthorpe.
HT: That’s right. Six months, yeah.
CB: And so, at Winthorpe what were they doing there, and what were you doing?
HT: Winthorpe? Well, it were the same as we were doing anywhere.
CB: You were training people, weren’t you.
HT: Training, yes, same as Coningsby.
CB: Right. And what was your role in the training at the Heavy Conversion Unit?
HT: Me? I was a senior instructor, I suppose. Was responsible for a schedule of people coming through, to see that their training was completed properly and in order. So I was, er, yeah, I think I was fairly responsible really, for the training.
CB: So you had ground school, did you, as well as flying?
HT: Me? Yes. I was a fitter, so I did a mechanics course: four months, and then went back and did a fitters course.
CB: No, I’m, I’m talking about Winthorpe, when you were at, after your first tour.
HT: You have to be first –
CB: You were then training other aircrew at Winthorpe.
HT: Oh, training the aircrew.
CB: What were you doing to them there? You had, gave them tuition on the ground, did you?
HT: Tuition, yeah.
CB: And in the air, as well as in the air?
HT: Yes, we, they were given tuition in the air as well. Yes. On some occasions, not on all, but on some, yeah, they were. That was the part of the job we weren’t very keen on [laugh] to be quite honest. Oh no. So we had er.
CB: ‘Cause the nature of the heavy conversion unit was that the crew would already have been together from the operational training unit.
HT: Yes.
CB: And then [cough] then the flight engineer joined, the crew.
HT: That’s right, at the Conversion Unit. That’s right, yes. And the gunner.
CB: And the extra gunner.
HT: Yeah. They joined the crew at the Conversion Unit. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So what are you actually doing with the flight engineer who is under training with you? Are you monitoring what he does or are you telling him what, showing him what to do? Or what is happening?
HT: Well he, I suppose instruct him, telling he’s a good idea though. He’s worked there as a flight engineer before he’s reached us, so he’s got some good idea of what he has to do. Any instructions you can give him you do. Yeah.
CB: So after your period, so what we’re talking about at Winthorpe, is, you joined that in October in ’43, and that went on until February ’44.
HT: Yeah.
CB: Then, from there you went to Warboys.
HT: Warboys, yes.
CB: So this was the NTU, so here we’re talking about getting into Pathfinding again. Is that right?
HT: Well, Warboys, an NTU, yeah, Navigational Training Unit.
CB: Yes. So it’s more specific navigation.
HT: Navigation, yeah. Is the -
CB: Is the idea.
HT: Well, that’s the, the main reason for it, navigation, yeah. So you are training the navigators generally.
CB: And this is when you now start, after that, you go to Coningsby, and this is where you are doing your Pathfinding with a new crew, and your pilot is a chap called Baker DFC.
HT: Jeff Baker, yeah.
CB: So what do you remember?
HT: Baker’s an Aussie.
CB: Is he?
HT: Yeah. Australian, yeah. Jeff Baker, yeah. So that was at – Coningsby.
CB: That’s Coningsby.
HT: That’s right, it was.
CB: So what squadron is that?
HT: 97
CB: It’s still 97
HT: I was with 97 all the time.
CB: Right. But it’s the beginning of your second tour.
HT: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: So what stands out in your mind about some of the operations there? ‘Cause we are talking April ’44, before D-Day.
HT: I had quite a, a fair amount of time for Baker. He was, I hit it off pretty well with him, he was quite a decent pilot from what can recollect of him. So, we didn’t have any breaches, we managed to do the tour complete.
CB: You said all the crew was commissioned except you.
HT: Yeah.
CB: How did the crew gel?
HT: How did the?
CB: How did the crew get on, how did they gel?
HT: Well there was, let’s see, there was, I suppose they applied for a commission, most of them.
CB: No, no how did they get on together as a crew, flying as a crew?
HT: Oh absolutely, no trouble, no real trouble anyway, no real trouble.
CB: Were they all second tour people?
HT: Er, they would be, yes, yes, they were.
CB: By definition, for Pathfinder they’re going to be second tour.
HT: Absolutely. Yes.
CB: So you all got your Pathfinder badge.
HT: Yes, you did, had to do so many trips, and you were awarded the Pathfinder badge. I don’t think it was many, one or two. Then of course you had to do a certain number and you were issued the Pathfinder badge permanently.
CB: Right. Now a lot of your flying is daylight as well as doing night time.
HT: That’s right, yeah.
CB: So how did you feel about the daylight raids?
HT: Well, there wasn’t many, there was only three I think, was there?
CB: You’ve got a good, you’ve got quite a few.
HT: Have I? Daylights?
CB: Well actually, a lot of it, I take that back.
HT: I thought I only had about three or four.
CB: Yes. It’s all to do with, yup, okay, a lot of it is actually to do with flying in the UK, daylight.
HT: Oh I see. That’s right, yeah.
CB: What stands out in your mind about the second tour particularly?
HT: I think probably the pilot that I had, he seemed to get on well with, with, Baker. I hit it off pretty well with Baker, Jeff Baker. He was the Aussie, a flight lieutenant.
CB: Did he become a master bomber?
HT: Baker? Yes. He was the flight commander, deputy flight commander.
CB: Right.
HT: He was a flight lieutenant.
CB: Yeah.
HT: The squadron leader was the flight commander you see.
CB: Yup.
HT: And then they’d have a wing commander as the squadron commander
CB: Squadron commander. Well quite a bit of the bombing at that time was of France.
HT: Yeah. Quite so, France mainly, yes.
CB: And the end of the tour was twenty five ops, you said.
HT: Twenty?
CB: You did twenty five ops on your second tour.
HT: Yes. Thirty on the first, twenty five on the second. Fifty five all together.
CB: Yeah.
HT: Yeah. It’s all down there, I think. Yes.
CB: So that takes us to –
HT: You won’t find many like that: two tours.
CB: No. More on Pathfinder.
HT: Absolutely. Oh well, of course. You’d get them, more on Pathfinder, system, yeah.
CB: So this took you through to October, the end of September ’44, didn’t it.
HT: Yes.
CB: Then where did you go after that? You went to somewhere, something different.
HT: Did I? What’s it got on the top there?
CB: It, it’s got you flying with all sorts of different pilots. And that’s when you started flying Stirlings, so.
HT: Oh, I was on a Conversion Unit.
CB: Yes.
HT: Yeah. That’s 16 61, it’ll be down there at the end.
CB: Right. Okay.
HT: 16 61 Conversion Unit.
CB: Where was that?
HT: Winthorpe.
CB: That was also Winthorpe.
HT: Yeah.
CB: Okay.
HT: That’s near Newark.
CB: And the Stirling was used as a, this is October ’44 –
HT: As a substitute. On the Conversion Unit.
CB: Yes. And then they converted to Lancasters, is that right?.
HT: That’s right. Yes, they pushed them into the Stirling initially and then of course they were trained secondly on the, on the Lancaster, yeah.
CB: Hmm. And what was the Stirling like compared with the Lancaster, completely different aeroplane certainly.
HT: Absolutely.
CB: So what was that like?
HT: Well, that was interesting. That was really interesting, I’m pleased I didn’t do my operations on it! It was disgusting. The damned aircraft would only go up to about sixteen thousand feet.
CB: Right.
HT: Seventeen. So it had the, it hadn’t the altitude that it should have had, you know. I wouldn’t have liked to do operations in, no way. Twenty was my, twenty thousand was mine.
CB: You were happier up there.
HT: Lanc. Yeah.
CB: Hmm. What was the work load? How was it different from the Lancaster workload as a flight engineer?
HT: On the, er?
CB: On the Stirling.
HT: Well. On the Lancaster you were sat together with the pilot in front and had all the controls in front of you.
CB: Yes.
HT: On the Stirling you weren’t, you were at the inter part of the fuselage, you had the flying panels there. So you weren’t, the bomb aimer, the pilot sat together, at the front, so you had the control panels in the, seemingly in the centre of the aircraft.
CB: With your own seat.
HT: On the Stirling.
CB: With your own seat.
HT: That was the Stirling.
CB: Because the Lancaster you didn’t have anywhere to sit.
HT: The Lanc you were right, you were at the front, all together you see with the pilot. You had all the controls there, the flight controls were on the left, and [emphasis] you had the throttle controls–
CB: In the middle.
HT: Between you. And you had the, the propeller controls you know, as well, together, four, for the revs, rev counters, and the undercarriage that was between you, between the pilot and you. The flaps, that was between the pilot and engineer, both could operate them. So, er, yeah, so that was that.
CB: But you, but you spent a lot of time standing in the Lancaster.
HT: Absolutely. Yes.
CB: Behind the pilot with your dials on the wall, didn’t you.
HT: Well, no. We, I had a seat and I could let it down, alongside the pilot.
CB: Right. Yeah, but the stuff behind you.
HT: In many cases I did a lot of standing as well. I didn’t sit down on take off, anyway on that rig. I always stood, so er -
CB: Yes. You felt safe enough with that?
HT: Oh yes.
CB: Even on landing.
HT: I was quite safe enough, yes, and ready for the run in…[laugh] Not really, no. I managed quite well there.
CB: But on the Stirling, then you’ve got effectively your own office.
HT: On the stern?
CB: Stirling.
HT: Oh the Stirling!
CB: You’ve got your own office, effectively, haven’t you, your seat and all your controls in front of you.
HT: They’re all in the centre. Yes, the engineer’s got a seat there in the centre as far as I’m aware, yeah. I did a few hours on Stirlings, flying, because we had them on the Conversion Unit.
CB: Yes.
HT: We were using them initially. And then moving them from there on to the Lancaster you see.
CB: Yeah. What was the most difficult thing about the Stirling?
HT: The Stirling. Well, I wasn’t actually involved with the flying of it. But I preferred the controls where they were on the Lanc, half way down the fuselage. And another thing you had about twelve tanks on the Stirling. [Laugh]
CB: Oh did you?
HT: Six on each wing. So that’s bit of trouble. You had the, you know, had the intermediate, you had the fuselage running between the it, between the two fuselages you could move one off for taxi and one on the other side, you were hid. So there was, yeah, so there was quite a lot of juggling going on in the Stirling. [Laugh] Them bloody tanks were disgusting! On that thing there.
CB: In what way?
HT: Well there were about, there must have been a dozen tanks! And both, more probably. There were quite a lot of tanks on Stirling, yeah.
CB: So how did you manage the fuel on the Stirling then, that was different from what you did on a Lancaster?
HT: Well, you had all, had all the, the systems all there just, pretty well, you know. The tanks were all properly joined, they were all joined up, you moved one from into another sort of style, you know, several tanks you could, there was your initial tank, you used for providing the engine with fuel and that was the tank that you moved all the fuel into initially.
CB: Like the Lancaster, it also had wingtip tanks, did it, which you drained early?
HT: The Stirling? Yes, there was tanks in the wings there, I don’t know exactly where, but there were tanks in the wings there. And tanks in the fuselage as well.
CB: Ahead of the bomb bay?
HT: In the Stirling, yeah.
CB: And er, how did the pilots like flying Stirlings?
HT: Well, I don’t think, I wasn’t too keen on them, so I don’t suppose they were, no. I would rather have the Lancaster any time!
CB: What about reliability?
HT: The Lancasters were much easier, you know, to control. They were far easier to control than those things. And you know, you had twelve tanks, twelve, at least twelve tanks, maybe fourteen. You had a lot of tanks, they were all in each wing, and all tied up together. Crossed over.
CB: On the, the Stirling, how reliable were they [emphasis], compared with Lancasters?
HT: Oh, I’ve not time for the Stirling compared, the Lancaster was a much better aircraft, far better. On the Lancaster three tanks in each wing, and you had two tanks linked together. The two inner tanks, the outer tank there was, you could only move it into the inner tank.
CB: Right, yeah. To the main tank.
HT: The main. You couldn’t use the fuel, I think you had to move it.
CB: Into the main tank.
HT: Into the main tank.
CB: But on the, the Stirlings were not used too much on raids later. But what was the condition of the aircraft you were using for the training at Winthorpe? What sort of state were they?
HT: Oh okay, I think, quite good.
CB: Were they.
HT: I was quite happy with the system, the maintenance, yeah. Of course we didn’t use them too much I don’t think, they were, we, just a small amount of the training, you know, initial, you know, initial training before they moved on to the Lanc.
CB: So, your time at Winthorpe, on this Heavy Conversion Unit went past the end of the war.
HT: Yes.
CB: What do you remember about the end of the war in Europe on the 8th of May 1945?
HT: The 8th of May.
CB: That was the end of the, the Germans surrendered.
HT: Yeah, the end of hostilities.
CB:Were there celebrations on the, at Winthorpe, or what happened?
HT: Not to any great extent, no. I think, suppose we probably had a drink [laugh] out of the camp area, you know, to celebrate, but I think it went down normally, you know.
CB: We’ll pause there for a mo.
CB: So you had a considerable time on Stirlings but then you went, at Winthorpe, but then still at Winthorpe you went on 16 61 Heavy Conversion Unit. You went on to Lancasters because they had the Lancaster finishing school there.
HT: Well generally I worked on the Lancs most of the time.
CB: Did you.
HT: I can’t recollect really being involved with the Stirling at all. I may have been slightly, you know, I was slightly but not to any great extent.
CB: But almost each time you flew with a different pilot because of what it was, so how was that?
HT: If I was at Winthorpe, then yes, I’m afraid so.
CB: That was because they were trainee pilots.
HT: That’s right. So I, I wasn’t flying all the time there, of course, but I did fly some of the time. Yes, we all had to do a certain amount of flying.
CB: Right. So it looks as though in August 1945 you gave up being there, at Winthorpe, and then you went to Honiley, in Warwickshire.
HT: Oh. That was after the war.
CB: Yes, September, so we are talking about much later.
HT: Oh yes, much later.
CB: That was when you were in –
HT: I returned to the air force in 19, 1948.
CB: Yes, so we’ll just cover that. It says here, total hours on release of, from the RAF on the 2nd of February 1946 was 734 total, of which 342 were daylight.
HT: Yes.
CB: A lot of that was because you were training other people.
HT: That’s right.
CB: So you left the RAF in ‘46.
HT: Yes. And returned again in 1948.
CB: But what did you when you left the RAF, in 1946? You were demobbed then.
HT: Yeah. What was I doing, yeah.
CB: Because you were an engineer of course, in the air force.
HT: I don’t know what I was.
CB: I’ll just stop there for a mo. What made you go back in the RAF?
HT: Well the job I was doing wasn’t of any real, you know, value.
CB: Right.
HT: So I thought I’d be better, better re-enlist in the mob, in the service.
CB: Yep. In September ’48 you returned, to the RAF.
HT: Well I went as a corporal, you see, I think I was, when I returned to the air force. I wasn’t at the bottom of the ladder like, at least, so I was, and it was a year or two, so of course I, I didn’t drop. I should have had, if I’d been older I wouldn’t have done it, you know.
CB: No.
HT: I was only young you see, early twenties.
CB: Twenty eight.
HT: Now had I been any, you know had I been any younger, any older, I might have had more, more about me, but er, yeah.
CB: So what did you do when you returned to the RAF?
HT: In 1946.
CB: The flying you did you would appear just to have been a passenger.
HT: Oh, I was –
CB: Was that because you were doing air tests.
HT: Oh I was fitting.
CB: Fitter.
HT: Fitter, yeah. I said I’d back, didn’t I, fitting, yeah, I was fitting.
CB: How long did you stay in the RAF after rejoining in 1948?
HT: Well I signed for three years.
CB: Ah.
HT: And of course I was in there fifteen months and then they posted me abroad, after fifteen month.
CB: Right.
HT: They kept me for four years, because I liked it a lot, I had twelve months extra to do, it was one of those things. So I got kept for four years. I got posted abroad, and I was in, where was I? I got posted to, to er, Mirpur is it? Mirpur, that’s part of India. That’s Pakistan I should say, I went to Pakistan.
CB: Which was an independent comp, country by then.
HT: It was independent yeah. India.
CB: What were you doing? Training Pakistani - ?
HT: I don’t think was doing anything there. I just passed through think, maybe there for a week or so.
CB: I’m just going to stop for a mo.
[Other]
CB: So you dropped, stopped off in Pakistan for a week or so you said, and you’re a ground fitter.
HT: Yeah. I was a corporal.
CB: A corporal airframe fitter.
HT: Engine.
CB: Engine fitter. So where were you going?
HT: Well I did a tour, I believe I was out in Malaya.
CB: Oh were you. Right.
CB: So I was at Penang. Have you heard?
CB: Yes I know it.
HT: In the north, on the coast, of Malaya. I was there. That was the, that was the rest centre, I was there on several occasions, in Penang and I was actually on the island, Singapore.
CB: Oh, were you.
HT: Yeah.
CB: Do you, what sort of aircraft were you - ?
HT: I can’t recollect.
CB: So you left the RAF again in 1952.
HT: Yeah.
CB: And what did you do after that?
HT: In 1952, yes.
CB: Because you’d signed on for three years but they made you do four. So that takes you to 1952.
HT: 1952, yeah.
CB: So you went into engineering in civilian life did you?
HT: 1952 I don’t know what I was doing.
CB: Because you’re aged thirty two by now.
HT: Yes, thirty two.
CB: What age did you get married?
HT: Oh, I was only twenty three.
CB: Were you. And where did you meet your wife?
HT: Oh, I met her at the RAF, the RAF at the RAF station. She was working in the NAAFI.
CB: In your, where you were stationed?
HT: Where I was stationed, yeah.
CB: In ’43?
HT: It would be ’42, yeah.
CB: ’42?
HT: Yeah.
CB: Right. So this was before you?
HT: It would be ’42.
CB: At Woodhall Spa, or Swinderby was it?
HT: Er, it was, er -
CB: Anyway, you were chatting her up in the NAAFI were you, and that’s how it started?
HT: In actual fact no, what happened, I, there was a dance going on
CB: Oh!
HT: At the station. So of course, I was in the sergeants mess having a drink and I decided to, that I’d go out and see what was going off in the dance you see. So I came out, and I was on me own, and I came out and there was these girls, come down from the NAAFI would be about four of them, so I tagged on to one of them then she became me wife [laugh].
CB: Never looked back did you.
HT: So she never looked back, she didn’t! So I tagged on to one of them and she was me wife! [laugh]
CB: What was her name?
HT: Iris, she was only on the NAAFI a couple of month.
CB: Oh. That’s in ’42.
HT: That’s in 1942, yes.
CB: And she, was she a WAAF, or was she a civilian?
HT: No. Civilian. Yes.
CB: And what did she do, after you met her? Then where, did she stay on the station or do something else?
HT: No, she was married then, married for life.
CB: When did you marry her?
HT: I think was it 1942 or 3? Yeah.
CB: So it was fairly quick.
HT: Oh yes, she had a family quickly, yes. So we were married, well married. We had one or two before the war finished, so it was, we had one or two kids before the war finished, two probably. Yeah.
CB: How did you manage to keep in touch, with your operational and training flying, with your wife? Did she live nearby?
HT: Yes.
CB: Her parents, what?
HT: For two, I would say that for a couple of month she lived on the unit, she was working in the NAAFI.
CB: Right.
HT: So of course after that, she left, and of course she was home you see, with her parents.
CB: Yes. But where was home for her?
HT: Her home was in Condover. Condover, you’ve heard of Condover. You’ve heard of Hera
CB: Oh yes, Condover. Yeah. I know, in Shropshire.
HT: Yeah. It’s a couple of mile from Hera. Condover. Can you remember where I lived?
[Other]: Not sure. Near Condover.
HT: You can’t?
CB: HT: In Derbyshire
CB: I’ll stop for a bit.
CB: When you left the RAF then where did you go? What did you work for?
HT: Rolls Royce.
CB: How long did you work for Rolls Royce? [Dog bark]
HT: Twenty six years.
CB: Did you.
HT: Yes.
CB: Was that a good job?
HT: Reasonable I think. I was, I was in charge of the job you know. It wasn’t well up but it was, I was in charge.
CB: Were you on Merlins engines still or had you moved on to jet engines?
HT: Merlins. I was on Merlins engines most of the time I was there. Jet engines, I just don’t know, I think I probably moved on to them.
CB: Bit later.
HT: In the end. But I was in charge of the job, yeah.
CB: That’s how you came to live in this area, was it, originally? Did you live in this area when you worked for Rolls Royce?
HT: No, I lived in Poulton.
CB: There was a Rolls Royce plant there was there?
HT: No, Poulton le Fylde. No, I used to travel into Derby.
CB: Oh, in to Derby.
HT: Poulton isn’t far you know, from Derby, so I travelled from there, yeah into Derby.
CB: Okay. We’ll stop there thank you very much.
[Other]: You went to Africa.
HT: That’s right.
CB: Now, on one occasion we missed, so lets pick up on this. You had to fly to Africa.
HT: That’s right.
CB: So what was the situation there? What were you bombing in the first place?
HT: Well we were bombing –
CB: Northern Italy, Spezia.
HT: Spezia, weren’t we. On the way back we bombed Italy.
CB: Yes. But the plane was not in a good state.
HT: Yeah, I can remember we, what was it, we were bombing in Italy, we were bombing somewhere, in Italy. Anyway, I er, we had to land in the, North Africa.
CB: Right.
HT: To refuel and then we could return to Britain.
CB: Okay.
HT: So when we landed there, I found that the aircraft was unserviceable and I left a note for the Chief Engineer to sort it out, and they did bugger all. So I thought well, I’m buggered if I’m stopping this dump here. [Laugh] So I got, the rear gunner says I’ll give you a hand to the bloody cowlings, take ‘em off, so.
CB: The cowling.
HT: The cowling.
CB: Of the engine.
HT: The engine, yeah. So the cowlings were off very quickly and the magneto points were out, and when Henry got the magneto points out they were solid, [emphasis] they were welded. [Loud laugh] You know what I mean, don’t you.
CB: Yeah.
HT: You’ve got a point on the mag. Like.
CB: Yeah. And they’re closed.
HT: You’ve got a pivot here. Have you got it? The pivot. Solid.
CB: Yeah.
HT: Points wouldn’t move. [laugh] Solid. So, what, so we looked at the aircraft next door that was cat AC, that had landed and was damaged.
CB: Right.
HT: So he took the bloody points out of one of the engines there. I didn’t ask. I took the points out. So I took the points out and put them in my aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
HT: And took off, had it not been for that, and had I left it, and I would have been there until the ground crew repaired it, and I would have been there for another three or four days.
CB: Yeah.
HT: So I didn’t want that.
CB: No.
HT: I wanted to get back. So that was the only thing I could do and I did. So you know, how many would do that? How many. [emphasis] Very, very, would do that, very few. I wouldn’t be the only one, I’d be, but there’d very few. I took the bloody points, even the points weren’t there for me to, I had to go to another –
CB: Another aircraft.
HT: I couldn’t use them, I had to go and get them from another aircraft. They were solid.
CB: Yeah. Which was a damaged one.
HT: They were welded, they were solid.
CB: That was the heat, was it?
HT: Oh, the heat, yeah, solid, so I couldn’t do anything.
CB: No. Did the engines overheat occasionally?
HT: Occasionally, yeah. But okay, that, okay that was quite an issue.
CB: Bit of initiative that was.
HT: And I, I left it for the chief engineer. I left the job for the engineering staff. And it reached the point where I had to do it myself or, stop, and remain there for some days.
CB: What was the pilot’s attitude to that? This is Munro is it, or Baker?
HT: It was either one or the other, I think it was probably Munro, so we, it was Jimmy Munro I think, yeah. So of course we were there and I, I did the job got it. Flew back. I got the, didn’t get a pat on the back, didn’t get any thanks. Bugger all. I might just as well have not bothered.
CB: But you got back.
HT: But we got back and that was what I wanted anyway. I wanted to get back.
CB: Now, just going back, further, sorry, go on.
HT: So, you know, I, I, the aircraft didn’t stop me, [emphasis] the aircraft was unserviceable and there was no one to repair it. I did it.
CB: Because you were the engineer.
HT: And I could do most of the things.
CB: Of course.
HT: So of course, naturally I, and if it was possible for a human being to do it, I could do it. And did.
CB: Having been ground crew originally.
HT: On occasions I did, and that was one occasion. In never got any credit for it or anything you know.
CB: What you did get credit for was for doing two tours, when you were awarded the DFM.
HT: Well I didn’t get the award, I didn’t get the DFM until I had completed forty five trips.
CB: Right.
HT: So I was on the way to doing two, I hadn’t completed two.
CB: No, you hadn’t finisheded two.
HT: Before they, before they suggested I should have the award, I had completed forty five.
CB: Yes.
HT: And then of course It came through before I properly finished you see.
CB: Yes. What about the rest of the crew? Were they all DFCs or only your pilot, Baker?
HT: Well I was on. Oh, Baker, Baker was a DFC.
CB: Already, yeah.
HT: And bar.
CB: Oh, and bar. And what about the rest of the crew?
HT: I think probably the navigator would, his navigator would have some, would have had a DFC.
CB: But at that stage you were flight sergeant rather than a warrant officer.
HT: I was a flight sergeant, I was a warrant officer probably, when, when I joined up with them.
CB: And wouldn’t you have got a DFC if you were a warrant officer?
HT: Well, yeah, I was a flight sergeant as you say, initially, but I moved on to warrant officer of course.
CB: But it was actually awarded to you, technically -
HT: That would have been awarded to me before.
CB: - when you were a flight sergeant.
HT: When I received the award.
CB: You were a warrant officer.
HT: Well I was told it was going to be, I had the opportunity of moving it to DFC!
CB: Oh you did!
HT: Yeah, I did, yeah.
CB: And what stopped you?
HT: Me, I said DFCs were ten a penny! There’s more, double DFCs than they had to DFMs. That’s the only reason. [Laugh]
CB: Right. Now you also got -
HT: So there you go. It’s true, what I’m telling you!
CB: Yes.
HT: You know, okay, a DF, they had far less DFMs, so they’re more important in my opinion. For the same, purely the same, one was an airmen’s award and they cut it out initially, they stopped it, it was wrong.
CB: Did they?
HT: Well, it wasn’t right, was it?
CB: No. No.
HT: So of course it was stopped. So I, so I got the DFC, DFM.
CB: DFM. You also received the Belgian Croix de Guerre. What prompted that?
HT: Yeah. Hey?
CB: What caused that?
HT: The Belgian Cross of War. I don’t know what happened there, I’m sure. The Belgians.
CB: Gave it to you yeah.
HT: They were the ones.
CB: And then you got Legion of Honour from France, fairly recently.
HT: I got that recently, didn’t I. And it was French, it was the French that -
CB: Yeah. Did that.
CB: Awarded me that. It was the MP what gave it me. He was the MP, he was the Member of Parliament for my area.
CB: Oh was he.
HT: Recently, Cumberland of course, you know, further north.
[Other}: Hope.
CB: Yeah.
HT: And I went there, and he presented it me. I don’t know what, he, he was an important joker, this MP; [laugh] he was an important bugger. What was he? I just forget now.
CB: You can say what you like Henry. [Laugh]
HT: His family and he were of some importance!
CB: If you want to take down MPs that’s fine!
HT: So I chuffed him up. [Laugh] I chuffed him up grand, yeah.
CB: Right. Henry Townsley, DFM, Croix de Guerre, Legion of Honour thank you very much for an interesting time.
HT: [Guffawing] It’s true!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Henry Townsley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATownsleyH180314
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:12:56 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Henry Townsley was born near Workington and left school at fourteen years of age and started work as an apprentice vehicle fitter. After a spell as a junior engineer in the Merchant Navy he volunteered, in April 1940, for the RAF, rather than the Navy as he suffered from sea sickness and fancied the prospects of flying. He also felt that aero engineering was the coming thing.
Recruited as an engine fitter he trained at St. Athans and then volunteered for flying duties as it was a quick promotion. Because of his engineering background his flight engineering training was reduced to two weeks
He was then posted to RAF Swinderby to fly the Manchester and then to 97 squadron, which became a Pathfinder squadron, at RAF Woodhall Spa alongside 617 Squadron. In May 1943 the squadron moved to RAF Bourne and he was promoted to warrant officer. Henry was happy to stay as an NCO and did not welcome more responsibility.
After his first tour he was rested for six months as a senior instructor at 1661 HCU unit at RAF Winthorpe flying the Stirling. He compares flying the Lancaster and Stirling in some detail.
He returned to operational flying and recalls bombing La Spezia and landing in North Africa where his aircraft went u/s but he repaired it himself in order to return home.
Henry remembers that there were no great celebrations on VE day and he was demobbed in February 1946.
After a period in civilian life, Henry re-enlisted in the RAF in September 1948 as a corporal fitter and was posted to Malaya and Singapore. He left the RAF again in 1952 and then worked for Rolls Royce for 26 years, working on Merlin engines.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Anne-Marie Watson
Terry Holmes
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Italy
Italy--La Spezia
North Africa
Singapore
Malaya
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942
1943-05-19
1943-05
1940-04
1946-02
1948-09
1952
1661 HCU
97 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Manchester
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Pathfinders
promotion
RAF Bourn
RAF Coningsby
RAF St Athan
RAF Swinderby
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Woodhall Spa
searchlight
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/572/8841/AFroudJ160516.2.mp3
b9f785857b8781991f29989631bb29b6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Froud, James
J Froud
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Froud, J
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with James Froud (1922 - 2019, 1801660 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 44 and 83 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-09
2016-05-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DP: This interview is being conducted for the IBCC Bomber Command, the interview is, the interviewer is Dave Pilsworth, the interviewee is Jimmy Froud, the interview is taking place at Mr Froud’s home, xxxx Bury St Edmunds on the sixteenth of May, time is, twelve ten.
JF: [inaudible] from the thirtieth of the eighth to the fourteenth of the ninth, apparently, er, we then went on leave, came back and went to, [pause] [background noise] a quick check, I must have gone straight [pause] [background noise] to
DP: Interview paused
JF: There’s a lot of operations, I did, with Warrant Officer Price, as a spare gunner, one was to Danzig, one was to Stuttgart, Danzig was badly pranged and a lot of people got, unfortunately, er, [pause] [background noise] then, it looks as if we pursued a load of training, for, the lads using radar, wire runs, those were the runs, er, to bombing ranges, you’ve probably heard of those before, er, there’s a number of them there, ok [pause]
DP: Interview paused
[inaudible]
JF: With the crew, with 83 Squadron, Bergen, that’s in Norway of course, erm, and on the way back we were diverted to, ooh, Sutton, I expect, but er, our base was unavailable due to fog, but don’t put all that detail in if it’s unnecessary, strangely enough, the next operation, was on, the first of the eleventh, [pause] and that was a daylight, to Homberg, not Hamburg, Homberg, in the Ruhr, and that was when it was daylight we did, we then [unclear] interest, did a ran, across country, that was Belgium and France, that was checking the [unclear] how set out, we were hit by flak, and er, returned to base, duty not carried out, it’s written up, we did loads of daylight flying, for practise and night fighter affiliation, duty not carried out [emphasis], so, we just need to go onto the ops don’t we, [background noise]
AP: Interview paused
JF: Ops, Mitchell, as a flying officer, Heilbronn, H-E-I-L-B-R-U-double N [spelt out] er, that’s a bombing raid I take it, Heilbronn, it must have been in France, wasn’t it, and the one after that, because this log book got damp once, it’s a job to see, and that was on the sixth of the twelfth, to Giessen, G-I-E-double S -E-N [spelt out] six hour trip, must have been just a bombing trip, sorry we was, Pathfinder first, we were probably flare force, we dropped the flares to light the target up, but that sort of detail I didn’t put in because it didn’t affect me at all, again, about the ninth of the first, at forty five, went to Munich, eight hours forty, again, I just sit in the rear and, let the boys work at the front, and I assume it was marking the target, or just putting flares down, we move on to several ariel, forty five, well, the eighteenth, Bohlen, Leipzig, sonar [unclear] thirty trip, [pause] not sure, what, where that, was, is, in the first months, no, second month, er, second of the first, no, already done that, anyway, Gravenhurst, which was the Dortmund-Ems canal, er, I can remember that erm, that was five hours forty five, the following day, we were told that it had been successful, by a Spitfire out on recognition, er, reconnaissance and looked down and seen this ditch, which had previously been a canal, anyway, they were usually fairly quickly repaired, actually, [pause] er, I’m trying to, about the twentieth of February, Horten, H-O-R-T-E-N [spelt out]that’s in Norway, and that’s U-boat pens, now, we bombed that, and I remember going on leave, sometime later, and being told off by a mate, who, being stationed up there, he said we’d hit the brewery and he was not pleased [laughs] because we got his beer [laughs] ah, the third of March, that’s my birthday, er, operation schme, I don’t know how you pronounce that
AP: Schmedehausen
JF: Yeh, good, I’ll accept that, Dortmund-Ems canal, was that the last one, anyway, and then, again, Bohlen, that’s B-O-H-L-E-N, [spelt out] Leipzig, nearly a nine-hour trip, eight fifty-five, sixth of the third, oh, these are pretty close together, Operation Sassnitz, that’s in the Baltic Sea apparently, eight hours, thirty, any idea?
AP: No, for the record, interview paused
JF: No, ok, [background noise] Lutenzendorf L-U-T-Z-E-N-D-O-R-F [spelt out] that’s Leipzig again, we also bombed Arsbeck, as briefed, and we were diverted to wing, and so, that was, on the fourteenth, on the sixteenth and went to Wurzburg, that’s W-U-R-Z-B-U-R-G [spelt out] seven hours, twenty, that was the sixteenth of the third, er, [background noise] I’ve got half a blank page here, I don’t know why that is
AP: For the record, interview paused, just for the record, interview re-started
JF: And so, we’re now, or did we do, had we done, Lutenzendorf, I think we done that haven’t we, oh, don’t matter, oh, with, seventeenth of the fourth, Cham, Bavaria, that’s Germany isn’t it, [pause] seven hours, fifty, no idea what it was, well, just, eighty, erm, Pathfinder duties, oh, here’s one to Tonsberg in Norway, that’s the twentieth of the fourth, so we’re getting near the end of the war probably, I think that’s the last one, I don’t know [pause] [background noise] yep, that’s it, [background noise] I now, we were then, after a while, preparing to go out to the Far East, we, the plan was to take the mid upper turret off, dangerous thing to do, and put a fuel tank, petrol tank there, they did it to one aircraft we, didn’t like the look of it but we did what we were told, or we went LMF, [laughs] so, we had actually finished operations, I’m afraid, that last one was Tonsberg, I should recognise it, [pause] [background noise] erm, [pause] [unclear]
AP: Just for the record, interview paused
JF: Erm, we [background noise] [unclear] we jettisoned, incendiaries, in the North Sea, there’s a big ditch, below the ocean, and they had to locate it and drop, er, the incendiaries, they were a bit dicey those things, very dangerous, they were made hexagonal, in shape, about a foot long, and the firing pin was located so that they were all packed together in a tight bunch, and dropped so that, they would scatter, now, obviously, pretty dicey things to have around, so, the air force wanted to get rid of them, and we dumped quite a few, er, [background noise] still flying with Mitchell, we’re doing flight affiliation and wire runs
AP: What was involved with fighter affiliation? Roughly
JF: Erm, you’d have a fighter up [unclear] we got to using Spitfires, and er, he’d do attacks on you, and we’d have a camera, mounted, on your gun sight, only little tiny things they were, [unclear] and er, they would record, er, the fighter attacking and when you got back they would be processed by a photo, photographic section, and then, and the films were assessed on a screen er, [pause] now, [pause] [background noise] I continued doing practise, bombing, and, cross countries, cross country duty not carried out, I don’t know why, recalled to base, that’s unusual, I wonder why that was? [background noise] ah, [emphasis] sorry, Mitchell, apparently, disappeared after the eighth of the sixth, he went, he didn’t say goodbye or [unclear] just went and er, we then had another fella, Flying Officer Clayton, erm, and we were doing the same things, you know, preparing to go to the Far East, er, [background noise] it was all training, we did radio range, [unclear] that would be done with the wireless op, [unclear] fighter affiliation, fighter affiliation, fighter affiliation, fighter affiliation, loads of that, so taken a pair of guns away with us and told us to [unclear] bloody air force, [pause] ah, now, [pause] [background noise]
AP: Just for the record, interview paused
JF: Yes, here, I’ve moved from, 44 Squadron, sorry from, 83 Squadron, to a heavy conversion unit, and that, [pause] oh, here we are, I was at Coningsby up to the thirty first, of the, tenth, forty five, and then I went to Finningley, Finn-in-ley [emphasis] which was a Bomber Command instructors course, and then, from there, on the tenth of the eleventh forty five, went to North Luffenham, which was a heavy conversion unit, er, and we were training people, up until, no those dates are wrong, [pause] [unclear]
AP: Just for the record, interview paused
JF: And I was at Cambridge, when we, was demobbed, and we used to meet quite regularly, [background noise] er, and he, but he died a few years ago, poor John, which probably was a good thing in a way because he’d gone blind or almost blind and he wasn’t taking it very well, a bit niggly on the phone, or some at
AP: What was his surname?
JF: Norman, Johnny Norman, yeh, poor John, [background noise]
AP: For the record, interview paused
JF: Conversion unit, so screened gunner, that means, actually, screened gunner it says, then air gunner that means, that’s a number of trips that we did, to, Moreton- in- the- Marsh and [unclear] to dump aircraft, [background noise] [pause] and we were up to the ninth of September, er, forty-six, we’re still flying as a screen gunner, fighter affiliation, and, those, airlift to Lindholme, fighter affiliation
AP: Is this the conversion unit, sixteen, sixty, wasn’t it?
JF: Sixteen, fifty-three, conversion unit, that’s the last
AP: For the record, interview, paused
JF: Tenth, forty-six, [background noise] could have come out on class B, class B, you got, two weeks leave, I think, not long, and er, you were back into civvy street [laughs] and I came out on a class A, which is the normal class, we got a bit longer leave, and I, I’d reached that stage where I hadn’t made my mind up whether I wanted to stay in or not, but I couldn’t see, what I could be doing, ‘cos, I realised, that, erm, the aircraft that we were flying, would have had to change, and the gunners would not be used, needed, if you’ve got fast enough aircraft, you don’t need air gunners, which is surplus baggage [laughs]
AP: So, what did you actually, do, once you were actually demobbed?
JF: I was, I was a plumber apprentice, up until the time, I went into the RAF, and I went back to plumbing, er, until, I was happily married, and, I did, quite a number of exams, sorry, quite a bit of training at er, evening class, er, and got qualifications, and eventually went to, Bolton, which was a training course, its, attached to Manchester University, and er, there were all sorts of, different trades there, building trade, printing, er, our friend along the road, he was a, I don’t know quite what he did actually, but he was in the, typewriting and that type of stuff, so, having got trained, you had to get a job, there was no guarantee of a job, but, I got a job at Reading Tech, er, stayed there about nine years, a job came up here, for a higher position, so, I came up here, finished up as deputy head in the construction department, and then, when I was old enough, I was demobbed
AP: When you came down here was you with, did you go to West Suffolk College?
JF: Yes
AP: For the record, interview now finished at twelve forty-two with Jimmy Foud
JF: Froud [laughter]
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with James Froud. Two
Creator
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Dave Pilsworth
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-16
Type
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Sound
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AFroudJ160516
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:25:19 audio recording
Description
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As part of the Pathfinder Force, Jimmy explains that they did a lot of training using radar, wire runs and bombing ranges, as well as radio range with the wireless operator. Jimmy also describes the fighter affiliation they carried out. They sometimes marked targets or drop flares.
Jimmy refers to several operations with 83 Squadron to places in Norway and Germany, including cross country runs across France and Belgium. They experienced being hit by anti-aircraft fire. The final operation was to Tønsberg in Norway. They also jettisoned incendiaries into the North Sea. Jimmy moved from 83 Squadron to RAF Coningsby, followed by RAF Finningley, a Bomber Command instructors’ course, and RAF North Luffenham, a Heavy Conversion Unit. Jimmy did a number of trips to RAF Moreton in the Marsh; to dump aircraft. He was at Cambridge when demobilised.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
England--Yorkshire
Norway--Tønsberg
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
France
Belgium
Germany
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
83 Squadron
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Heavy Conversion Unit
incendiary device
Pathfinders
RAF Coningsby
RAF Finningley
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF North Luffenham
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/263/3411/AGrayCJ151017.2.mp3
d77b2a53b586aa10835d976fe3601a19
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gray, Jeff
Jeff Gray
J Gray
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Jeff Gray.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gray, CJ
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Right. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Jeff Gray at his home on the 17th of October 2015. I’ll just leave that there and if you want to -
JG: Yes.
DK: Go through your pictures.
JG: I -
DK: If I can, one thing. If I keep looking down it’s just to check that the -
JG: Yeah. Yes. Running -
DK: Old machine’s working.
JG: I was very fortunate in my choice when I joined the RAF. I was packed off to Texas. To America. And -
DK: If I just take you back a little bit.
JG: Yes.
DK: What made you want to join the RAF? Did you have any -
JG: I was -
DK: Choice in the matter or –
JG: I was in the Home Guard. LDV which became the Home Guard and I decided that I would like to join up and so I asked the farm manager I was working for if I could have a day off.
DK: So you were working on the farms -
JG: Yes.
DK: At the time then.
JG: I’m a farm boy.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
JG: Still. And he said, ‘You want a day off?’ He said, ‘But you’ve got a day off. You’ve got New Year’s Day.’ So I said, ‘I think, I think I need more than that,’ so he let me go. I went to the recruiting centre, the combined recruiting centre in Aberdeen.
DK: Yeah.
JG: The army and the navy guys weren’t there. The RAF man was and I think he thought it would be fun if he stole the would-be Gordon Highlander away who had come to see if he could get a kilt and joined the RAF. He said, ‘You’d like the RAF better. They sleep between sheets at night.’ ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I’d love to try that.’ But he didn’t realise that I was, anyway that led to another station in Edinburgh a few weeks later and I went to that two days so I had to say to Jake, the farm grieve, ‘I need a week off.’ He said, ‘You can’t go doing that,’ he said, ‘I’ve signed. You’re producing food and I’ve signed all the documents and you’re exempt from military service.’
DK: Was it considered a reserved occupation?
JG: Yes it was.
DK: What you were doing.
JG: It was reserved.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JG: And I said, ‘Well growing food isn’t going to be enough to stop this Hitler guy, I don’t think,’ so I went off. He gave me the week off. What defeated him was he said, he said, ‘I’ll have to take a week’s wages off you.’ My annual wage was ten pounds. I said, ‘Can you do the mathematics of that Jake?’ He said, ‘No. I can’t.’ So, so off I went and once again fortune smiled upon me. I was able to make a reasonable impression on the board but I failed the mathematics. The mathematics were truly, I hadn’t covered at my school. They said, can you retake this if we give you, if we postpone your date of joining till September can you take the, and I said, ‘I can, yes’. And so I came back and thought now how do I do this so I asked the headmaster, a chap I’d always liked, the domini and he said, ‘Well you can’t go into Aberdeen. You can’t do any of that. You’re going to join the classes here, you’re going to sit at the back,’ he said, ‘And I’ll teach you mathematics till it’s coming out of your ears.’ So that’s what I did and when eventually I was up to snuff took the exam and that was it but they had already set my date to go and so I was stuck with that and I had to earn a living for a little while and I found that there were more ways of earning a living as a farm labourer than I’d realised. It was harvest time. If I went south I could go to harvest and they would pay me five pounds. Come back to Aberdeenshire and get another five pounds for the next month and go north into the wilds -
DK: Nice one –
JG: And get another.
DK: Excellent.
JG: So in three months I’d got fifteen pounds and my annual wages was only ten. I said, ‘Jeff. I think you’ve made a discovery.’ I was never able to really put it into practice and when I reported to the Lord’s Cricket Ground they went through the training there and assembled us eventually and decided where we were going to go and they shipped us off across the Atlantic on a ship called the Banfora in a little convoy and although it was a horrible ship and I didn’t care much for it it was very useful because we had a destroyer on each side sending messages to each other so we spent the time taking down their messages, you know, from the Aldiss lamps and when we got there they assembled us in a hangar and told us where we were going. Texas.
DK: Oh.
JG: Well like every school boy of the time I’d read everything I had about you know adventure comics, all that stuff and what a wonderful thing that was. So here we are in Texas.
DK: Oh right.
JG: A photograph, and there’s Jeff Gray there.
DK: Ah.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So at this point, by the time you got to Texas there had been no flying at all. All your basic flying was done -
JG: I had to do a grading course on the Tiger Moth.
DK: Right. And that was in the UK.
JG: And that was in the UK.
DK: Right.
JG: And if you passed the grading course you could go.
DK: And then straight out -
JG: Failed that and -
DK: To America.
JG: You didn’t get anywhere.
DK: Ok.
JG: And so -
DK: So this was your class at the time then.
JG: It is yes. Here’s the full class all fortunately named Number One British Flying Training.
DK: So just, just for the recording so it’s Number One British Flying Training School.
JG: Yes. That’s -
DK: Number nine course.
JG: You will find the G men in a row here.
DK: Right.
JG: Gordon and Gray.
DK: Oh I see.
JG: And Guttridge.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
JG: And -
DK: All alphabetically -
JG: We were the G men. Eventually, they, I was the only one who survived the course.
DK: Really.
JG: Which was, but they all had a career. Gordon for instance had been a policeman. He, I forget what he did in the RAF but he went back to his native Glasgow and became chief of police there.
DK: Really.
JG: Had a splendid career and Guttridge who never got over failing the course went and did something. A replica trip of Shackleton when they sailed across that ocean and across -
DK: Oh.
JG: And so he wasn’t lacking in courage.
DK: No.
JG: So there we are. So there are a number of pictures of aeroplanes. The Wellington.
DK: Wellington.
JG: Which, of course, I spent a lot of time on the Wellington as an instructor and a picture of the -
DK: Manchester.
JG: The Manchester.
DK: Manchester. Yes. Yes.
JG: You will recognise the Manchester was the most deadly of aeroplanes. It had these unreliable engines.
DK: Yes.
JG: It was simply awful.
DK: So how long were actually in America for?
JG: I think it took nearly a year altogether you know as a journey time and what have you.
DK: Ok.
JG: Yes. And when I came back of course they said we’ve got to knock you guys into shape again you know and you’re not allowed to wear shoes because you’re not commissioned and only commissioned officers can wear shoes and these lovely shoes we’d brought back with us from the States had to be scrapped.
DK: Oh no.
JG: Very foolish but anyway this aeroplane, the Manchester, you can see from the tail unit that it became the Lancaster.
DK: Yes.
JG: Just as it was. It is in fact a Lanc with new wings and new engines.
DK: The four, four engines.
JG: And so became a, I’ve got a picture here. I don’t think anyone recognises who she is. She was one of my childhood, school heroines.
DK: Oh it’s not Amy Johnson.
JG: Amy Johnson.
DK: It is Amy Johnson yes. Yeah
JG: Yes. Yeah. And at that -
DK: Did you, did you -
JG: Meeting in Lincoln I passed that around the table and -
DK: Did you ever -
JG: So much for fame. No one recognised her.
DK: Did you ever, did you ever meet her?
JG: I never did get to met her.
DK: You never met her.
JG: No. No.
DK: No.
JG: Our paths did cross at some time when she, I arrived in a Comet, flying a Comet to Australia down to Melbourne and, by chance on the date when she had done her flight.
DK: Right.
JG: Now there’s always this rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne. Melbourne said Sydney doesn’t count. She finished here. And she was carried ashore, down the street by the staff of the Menzies Hotel and when I got there the street was crowded and there was a guy who’d been a nobody on that occasion, now he’s the chief porter and he said, ‘We’re going to make you re-enact this. You’re going to be carried.’
DK: Did, did people like Amy Johnson influence you in to sort of a career in aviation? Is it -
JG: I think it was one of those things that yes you form these impressions.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And yeah. So -
DK: So when you got back from America, from your training there and you, what happened then? Did you join, go straight to a squadron or was there further training?
JG: No. No. There was a lot of training. We’d only flown single-engined aeroplanes. We had to be checked out on, on Ansons and the like to -
DK: Right.
JG: To multi-engined aeroplanes and then we wound up at an Operational Training Unit at Cottesmore. Number 14 OTU and where we flew the Wellington.
DK: Right.
JG: And when we’d done that we had to be converted to the four engine Lancasters and there was a -
DK: Did you, did you have to –
JG: Conversion Unit at Wigsley which we did that.
DK: Wigsley. Yes.
JG: And we flew Halifaxes and Lancasters because they were running low on the Lancasters and they still had a few Halifaxes so -
DK: So that was the Heavy Conversion Unit at Wigsley.
JG: That was the Heavy -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Conversion Unit. Yes.
DK: Did you ever get to fly the Manchester?
JG: No. No.
DK: No.
JG: No. I just, someone sent me some pictures of it and I kept them because it seemed to me to be such an intriguing tale of this very unsuccessful, unreliable aeroplane.
DK: Such a successful -
JG: Which turned into the most successful ever.
DK: Can you, can you remember much about the Wellingtons and Halifaxes? What they were like as aircraft to fly.
JG: I loved the Wellington. Oh yes. A great aeroplane really. It had no vices at all except maybe one thing. It had an automatic trim that when you put down the flap the automatic trim readjusted the attitude.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And if that didn’t work you had to be the automatic trim, [laughs] if it didn’t work and you had to catch on quickly but apart from that as a defect I thought it was a great aeroplane to be able to fly and it was robust, and Barnes Wallis, of course, again. Yeah.
DK: What about the Halifax? Was that -
JG: Well I don’t have much impression of the Halifax except it was very similar and the instructor pretended that it was a Lancaster.
DK: Right.
JG: And you called for the power settings you would call on a Lancaster and he set the power for the Halifax.
DK: Right.
JG: So this was very confusing [laughs] I found.
DK: I can imagine.
JG: I’m not sure I cared a lot for it.
DK: So, so although your training was on the Halifax. They were really preparing you for the Lancaster.
JG: Yes. Yes. It was just they had run out of Lancasters and they’d substituted Halifaxes which at the time they seemed to have plenty of them. Yeah.
DK: So, from, from heavy conversion unit then was it straight to your squadron.
JG: Yes. They said, they took us, they put us in a hangar and we were assembled there and told to choose our crew and we were handed a list. When that had been done that would be your crew and if you couldn’t do it they would make up your mind. They would give you a list.
DK: I’ve often heard about this where you were put in to a hangar. I find it very unusual because -
JG: Absolutely weird. Yeah.
DK: Because the military is normally you do this, you do that.
JG: It was.
DK: And this is very different to sort of the military thinking where you got -
JG: I thought it was a very clever move indeed.
DK: Really.
JG: And I stood there like an idiot. I didn’t know where to start and this scruffy Yorkshireman came up. An aggressive, little, scruffy Yorkshireman come. He said, ‘Have you got a navigator yet?’ ‘No,’ I said. He said, ‘Well you have now. Let’s go and find the rest of them.’ [laughs] So that was my first impression of Jeff Ward the Yorkshireman and we were buddies from then on.
DK: So this, this forming your own crew in a hangar, you think it was a good idea then. It seemed to, it seemed to work.
JG: It was a very smart move. Yes. It meant there was no objection. It was your choice. You’d done the rounds there and you’d picked them all and that was it. If you couldn’t decide they decided for you but mostly people were able to pick guys they liked the look of or whatever. Yeah.
DK: So after that it was then the posting to 61 squadron.
JG: No. I think, I think we did the OTU after that but -
DK: Alright. Ok.
JG: I’m not quite sure. Yes. And the 61 squadron, I don’t know, was the luck of the draw I suppose. Yes. And that’s what brought me into contact with Lincoln and the cathedral.
DK: So where were you based with 61?
JG: We started at Syerston.
DK: Syerston.
JG: In Nottingham and we were very displeased to be moved because we were just getting to know all the pubs there and [laughs] all the Ye Olde Trip to Jerusalem and all those and suddenly we were shifted off to Lincoln and that seemed, and then and then from Skellingthorpe they sent us to Coningsby and that I liked. Coningsby was a great place to be.
DK: So you went to Coningsby next then.
JG: Yeah.
DK: Right.
JG: And then back to Skellingthorpe.
DK: Skellingthorpe.
JG: And Skelly was a cold and sad place in a way because it was very basic where the others, Syerston and Coningsby were regular accommodation and a good style.
DK: It’s a housing estate now.
JG: Yeah but I think if, if you’re in a group and you’re living in the same nissen hut and you’re eating in the same mess and everything you all become pals.
DK: Sure.
JG: It pulls you all together. Yes. Yes. So and I was interviewed just before I went there for a commission and I was interviewed by a chap called Bonham Carter and I took a very poor, I have a very poor opinion of Bonham Carter because my school in Scotland was [Raine?] North Public School. To his mind I had defrauded someone. It was not a public school. So I had to explain to him that the Scottish educational system was better and greater than the English and when we said it was a public school the public could attend. I said, ‘When you talk about a public school -
DK: Yeah.
JG: The public may not attend.’ And he put down on my documents, “Not officer material.” Quite right too. [laughs]
DK: Oh dear.
JG: He got that right but he did me a great favour in fact in that I went as an NCO and we were a crew of NCOs and were all mucking in together as it were.
DK: Did you find on a squadron a bit difficult though that some of the pilots were obviously officers?
JG: Yes.
DK: And some of them weren’t so you didn’t necessarily mix with all of the pilots.
JG: No.
DK: Was that an issue or –
JG: I don’t think it was really.
DK: No.
JG: People seemed able to cope with that. I think I felt sorry for chaps who were allocated to senior officers because that sort of changed the relationship altogether.
DK: So the dynamics of the crew sort of –
JG: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah
JG: But they seemed to be able to bond quite well but I think it took them a little bit longer and we had, I always felt that this Bonham Carter had done me a favour.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Because we bonded straight away and shared everything.
DK: So your crew were all sergeants.
JG: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: As in that -
DK: A picture here. Yeah.
JG: [?] I showed you.
DK: Oh.
JG: Yeah, that one. Yes. There we are. Yes. So – and I’ve kept a number of things that impressed me. There’s a plot of, there’s a bomb plot for Stettin which seemed to me to be self-evident that all this scatter coming in from this direction that what they needed to do was to, instead of picking the target they should have -
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: Moved the target a bit beyond it and then they would have got most of the bombs falling where –
DK: Yeah.
JG: They wanted instead of wasted out here.
DK: It was known as creep back wasn’t it?
JG: Creep back. Yes.
DK: Creep back. Yeah.
JG: And it seemed to me there was a very simple solution to that rather than master bombers and that nonsense but, so I think that was why I kept that because no one paid any attention to it really [laughs].
DK: So you put the aiming point about there.
JG: Yeah. Put the aiming point -
DK: And then that would move –
JG: About a mile further on. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Yeah. An imaginary point the Pathfinder guys could find the area and identify it but then move the pretend and you would get a lot more of these bombs where you wanted them.
DK: Was it at 61 squadron then the first time that you saw the Lancaster and flew the Lancaster?
JG: Well yes. Yes that’s right. Yes.
DK: So -
JG: We had the Conversion Unit.
DK: Right. Ok. So what were your, after the Wellington and the Halifax what were your feelings about the Lancaster?
JG: I liked it from the beginning. Yeah. I thought it was a great aeroplane. It was a natural aeroplane. It didn’t have any defects that I, except getting in and out of it was a bit of a squeeze but it was a very bad aeroplane to escape from but otherwise it seemed robust and it, yeah I liked it. I thought it was great. And the sad thing is that it’s only recently that it’s sort of come into its own. Up till just recently and perhaps that Memorial it was the fighter boys, the Battle of Britain boys, they were the glamour boys. Bomber Command were nowhere and they’d rather blotted their copy books towards the end with that bombing raid on Dresden but then that Memorial seemed to change something quiet subtly in the minds of the British people and so the Lancaster has now become the aeroplane to have been on [laughs]. So -
DK: Strange that isn’t it?
JG: Yeah. I feel -
DK: So, can, can you recall your, your first mission then? Where that was to?
JG: Modane was the first one we did.
DK: That was the first one, to -
JG: And then the next one was Dusseldorf when Bill Reid got his, his Victoria Cross.
DK: So did you know Bill Reid then?
JG: Oh yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I knew Bill Reid fairly well because we were fellow countrymen, you see.
DK: Sure. Sure.
JG: I met him. He’d just got his medal ribbon up and he was out celebrating with his crew in Boston and we’d been to the Assembly Rooms to a dance and he wasn’t the sort of guy who danced. He was one of the guys who just looked on from the doorway and I was often one of the guys who missed the transport back to camp but I’d found a lady who would give me bed and breakfast so I’m on my way there when I come across [Ellis] and it was his radio officer [both?] looking for somewhere to sleep the night. I said, ‘Come with me to this lodging house,’ and the landlady answered the door, ‘Oh Jeff,’ she said, ‘Come in. Not him,’ she said, ‘He’s drunk. He will make a mess of my beds.’ ‘Oh dear,’ I said, ‘Mrs. You will be the only landlady in Lincolnshire, perhaps in the country who has turned away a man who has just won a Victoria Cross.’
DK: Oh no.
JG: ‘Get off,’ she said, ‘I don’t believe you.’ But it was true and he behaved himself. I said, ‘He’ll pay for any damage anyway.’
DK: She let him in then did she?
JG: So she let him in. So every time I met him I would tease him a little bit about his days when he was dancing and so on and his wife really never quite followed it. He doesn’t dance, he can’t dance, he thinks it’s a route march.
DK: I’ve always heard the story, I don’t know how true it was that when he met his wife it was some years before he mentioned that he’d been awarded the Victoria Cross.
JG: Oh I don’t know about that but quite possible yes. He had quite a career after that. The MacRobert’s family took him up and sent him through university.
DK: Right.
JG: And where he got a degree which and the MacRobert’s family they’d bought a Spitfire and I think they spent money on a Stirling -
DK: Stirling.
JG: Of all things. And he was given employment with them on their fertiliser division.
DK: Right.
JG: And so every time I met him at these get-togethers I said, ‘You’re still are pushing the bull shit then.’ [laughs]. ‘You’re selling horse shit.’ [laughs] I think I’ve kept some -
DK: Yes.
JG: I think I’ve kept. There he is, a piece of information there.
DK: I did meet him actually about fifteen years ago.
JG: Yeah. Yeah that’s -
DK: Because he ended up a prisoner of war didn’t he? I believe he was shot down later on.
JG: Yes. Yes. Yes. There. What else have we got here? I went from Bomber Command to Transport Command and that’s a BOAC York. That’s a York which was a development of the Lancaster.
DK: So you flew, you flew the York as well.
JG: Yeah. I, I flew the guys back from the Far East.
DK: Right.
JG: Who had been prisoners at Changi jail and all that dreadful railway and the guys who couldn’t be shipped back were flown back and I had to sign up to do that. My demob was cancelled until we’d finished this particular project. What I didn’t realise because I was enjoying myself I told the other guys around me pick me up the best of the jobs.] [laughs] So -
DK: So how many, just stepping back a little bit, how many operations did you actually do with Bomber Command?
JG: Thirty.
DK: Thirty.
JG: Yes.
DK: So one tour.
JG: We were, we were pulled off after that dreadful Nuremberg trip.
DK: Right.
JG: And I think Bomber Command decided, I think, at that stage they weren’t going to be able to bomb the Germans into submission and that start the preparation, preparing for the invasion.
DK: Were you actually on the Nuremberg -
JG: Yes. I was.
DK: You was.
JG: Yes. It was, it was a beautiful clear night. It was going to be cloudy all the way until we got to the target when it would be clear but the reverse was true. They’d picked a southerly route. It was moonlight. It was like clear as day and I think we were in real difficulty with the, with the routing and on that occasion we quickly found ourselves with an enemy on each side. Now that is the trap. You can’t beat these two if they’re working together ‘cause you turn towards one and you’ve given the other a non-deflection shot. You’re dead men really if you try and corkscrew your way out of that one and I thought we’ll try and outrun them. I put on full power. Well of course that was useless and I knew it would be ‘cause they had twenty knots faster than we were. They could catch us at any time so they just kept position and kept signalling each other and so I then pulled off the power, put down some flap which was illegal and said, ‘You’re not going to enjoy this bit guys because we are going to see the,’ our stalling speed will be lower than theirs. ‘They’re not going to enjoy following us now,’ and sure as hell they didn’t. Their stalling speed was much higher. They daren’t risk it and I was just on this, but anyway once I’d seen them off we straightened up, put on the power and climbed back up again and, got it, ‘Done it Jeff,’ I said the other Jeff and blow me down, there they were again and I said, ‘Well I’m going to pick this guy on the left. He’s the leader I think. I’m going to ram him so stand by. We’ll hit him with the nose. We might lose a bit of the aeroplane but he will lose his starboard wing.’ ‘Yes,’ they said and we headed for him and I think the guy realised it. He shot off. He disappeared. They both did. And my navigator said, ‘I haven’t been able to follow that,’ he said, ‘I think we’re lost.’ ‘No, no, Jeff we’re never lost. We’re uncertain of our position.’ ‘So what will you do?’ I said, ‘We will add ten minutes to the eta,’ and I goofed. I should have added ten minutes to the end of that route because the last leg was down to the southeast but I added it to the run so I turned on eta and of course we were well short and we were getting to the end of this ten minutes when some searchlights came on looking for us. ‘Davvy.’ I said, ‘We’re going to give them a surprise. Bomb doors open. Let them have it.’ So we bombed that bloody searchlight battery and the lights went out but there were a lot of guys in the same position. I didn’t know until afterwards who saw the incendiaries burning and they started bombing and in fact we’d hit Schweinfurt.
DK: No.
JG: And we didn’t know until it was back plotted the next day but at that stage by the end of it I could see sixty, seventy, eighty miles away in the distance the show was beginning and we’d missed it. They’re going to be, blotted our copy book. We’ve bombed the wrong bloody target. We’ve made a horse. When I got back I was astonished. They greeted us with open arms there were so few coming back [laughs]
DK: So you -
JG: And they were trying to keep the number below the magic hundred. Yeah. They were cheating. They weren’t including the guys who crashed.
DK: Ok.
JG: [who never came back]
DK: ‘Cause it was over a hundred wasn’t it?
JG: It was over a hundred. No doubt about that.
DK: Did you see many of the aircraft go down at –
JG: No. I don’t think I did. No. We, it was only very occasionally that you saw someone being blown up. We had what were known as scarecrews which was something that we’d invented that didn’t bloody exist. We thought it was some German pyrotechnic. No it wasn’t. It was some guy, usually a pathfinder carrying all the coloured flares.
DK: I’ve heard, I’ve heard the stories of the scarecrows.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So you’re saying they were actually -
JG: They were.
DK: Pathfinder aircraft going up.
JG: Yeah. They were but we believed at the time that it was a pyrotechnic that the Germans were using.
DK: Was that a story that was purposefully put around do you think?
JG: I think it was a story that the Bomber Command guys like myself invented and the bosses decided to keep quiet about it. I think they knew but they didn’t deceive us. They just let us go on thinking what we already thought.
DK: So you weren’t in any trouble then for hitting the wrong town.
JG: There was no question, there was no question of it. No. They were just so bloody pleased to see us they didn’t give a monkey about where we’d been -
DK: No.
JG: Or what we’d done.
DK: How did you feel knowing that there was those losses and the way the route had been drawn that you were going in a long straight line for several hundred miles in, in full, it was full moonlight wasn’t it?
JG: Yeah I think the winds were a nonsense, the weather forecast was completely the opposite. When they said it was going to be cloudy all the way, we’d have cloud cover, it was clear all the way except the target was cloudy and so I think the actual attack on the target was not very clever but in a way it’s helped the end of an era. They switched us to the French targets and the French targets were such a piece of duff they were only going to count as a third of a trip but it turned out that that was not correct because to bomb a French target we could not bomb a French target while there were French workers there in the marshalling yard or the factory and we had to wait for some system of someone in the resistance would send a signal to the UK who would send a signal to us to tell us when we could start bombing so we were circling around you know with nothing to do except wait and the Luftwaffe -
DK: While you were being shot at.
JG: Began to take an interest in us and come up and shoot people down and on one of the worst of those Mailly le Camp in Belgium they shot down I think it was forty two aeroplanes.
DK: Were you on that operation?
JG: I was on that one, yes. Yes. I claimed to be the guy who put out the spot fires. I may be mistaken. It was disputed by everybody except I continued to say it and I can still to say it now the others have gone [laughs]
DK: So the spot fire?
JG: It was being marked by Cheshire.
DK: Right.
JG: And he had developed this idea of low level marking and of using these red spot fires and he had everybody waiting with the flares that his colleagues had circled this and I took one look at that and said to Jeff Ward, ‘We are not joining that. We’re heading into the darkest place we can find and then we’ll come back now and again and see what’s happening.’ And just as it happened, as we got back he had it marked and we went in and when we pulled away my rear gunner Jock [Haye] said, ‘We put the bloody red spot fires out.’ I said, ‘Jock, I don’t care we’re on our way home,’ and we could hear these arguments going on. I think it was either a Canadian or an Australian and they were giving him a hard time because he wanted to remark the target, ‘Stop bombing, stop bombing,’ and they wouldn’t because -
DK: Wanted to go.
JG: They could see what we’d done and I think it was forty two aeroplanes lost and we killed one German. They’d left an NCO to guard the camp and that was their only casualty. Our chaps busy with the crosswords and whatever, some of their intelligence was a bit duff. They thought there was a whole army there at this tank training school but they’d left the week before. So -
DK: Yeah.
JG: So it was a sad tale that one and there was nothing happy about it.
DK: What was your opinions of Cheshire at that time was he well known throughout Bomber Command or -
JG: Yes he was and I got to know him after that because when he left and he inherited this property he set up these Cheshire Homes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Some guy that, you know, had nowhere to go he took with him and he said anyone who came along would be taken in provided they could do something useful. There was no charge. He paid for it. Yeah. And I thought he’s taken leave of his senses but then I realised afterwards that he was the first to come to his senses and I was flying this time in BOAC and on a VC10 and he was a passenger on one occasion and I talked to him at Heathrow in the VIP lounge and he was grumbling about the coffee and I said, ‘Put a shot of this in with it,’ and of course he was teetotal [laughs] Poisonous you see. And I said, ‘Do you remember a place called Mailly le Camp?’ And he said, ‘Shall I ever forget?’ So I chatted to him on this trip and I found, yeah he was the first guy to come to his senses and we became not exactly friends but I got to know him afterwards though I didn’t know him at the time. Yeah.
DK: Interesting. So is he someone you’ve got the respect for of that post war [chain of who was?]?
JG: Oh yes. I think what he did he went around after that every year visiting places where they had been bombed and delivering the cross of nails which I think I’ve got a picture here of one of the German newspaper. There I am with the chairman and that’s the cross of nails. The Coventry.
DK: Ok.
JG: [?] whatever.
DK: Yes.
JG: And every year and he visited Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
DK: Yes. Yes because he was-
JG: Check that they’d got them there.
DK: He was actually on the Nagasaki raid wasn’t he?
JG: Yeah.
DK: He was the British observer.
JG: Yeah so that’s, that’s in Germany that’s the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church that we destroyed.
DK: That’s Berlin isn’t it? I have seen that.
JG: Yes.
DK: Well not that. I’ve seen the church.
JG: Yeah. Yes. [pause] So that’s my favourite aeroplane.
DK: Ah the VC10.
JG: The VC10. I liked that beast. I liked the Comet as well but I like the beast. Yeah.
DK: The first aeroplane I ever flew on was a VC10.
JG: What?
DK: The first aeroplane I ever flew on was a VC10.
JG: Oh was it really? Yes.
DK: 1981. British Airways.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. That’s one. Yes.
DK: So, you, you were in Transport Command then.
JG: I was in Transport Command. Missed this lot.
DK: Right.
JG: You know. I struggled to get a job. When we were on 61 I did have an offer from Bennett to join the Pathfinders.
DK: Right.
JG: And I called a get-together with the crew where we would vote on the issue as to whether we stayed with 61 or if we went to the Pathfinders and it was a bit of a set up because I had got this, with this DFM I’d got twenty five quid and it was the only twenty five quid that I had at the time.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I spent it all in Leagate public house and of course it snowballed on me. Not just my crew but the ground crew and the girls from the parachute, they all came and anyone who came in the pub the bartender was saying, ‘Are you with Jeff Gray’s crew?’ And they said, ‘No. Why?’ ‘Well there’s free beer if you are.’ ‘Oh, yes, good old Jeff.’ [laughs] And so the vote was stay 61.
DK: Ok.
JG: It could hardly have been anything else but I don’t know if he forgave me or, ‘cause I didn’t ever meet him personally but after the war when I came out I missed this lot. The one guy who offered me a job was Bennett and, but he said, ‘You won’t be flying as a pilot. We’re taking off all the navigators on this British/South American route we’re starting and you will be acting as navigator.’ And I said, ‘Oh God. Never. I think it’s a dreadful mistake. A recipe for disaster.’ And it was of course.
DK: He lost a couple of aircraft didn’t he, in South America?
JG: He did and he did try to take the top off the Pyrenees.
DK: Yeah.
JG: And they cancelled the airline. Put him out of business.
DK: And it was at the point you joined BOAC then.
JG: Yes. Yes. That was about all that was left. [laughs] I looked at Quantas and I foolishly turned that down because they were the worst paid in the business but today the top but, and I knew that I couldn’t join any of the continentals because I was hopeless at language but so the BOAC as a very humble first officer was where I got to.
DK: So what did you start flying on with BOAC then at the beginning?
JG: Oh dear. I’m hopeless on dates. I don’t have that.
DK: Or the type of aircraft.
JG: On the, on the Yorks to start with.
DK: Avro Yorks.
JG: And then we moved up to the Comets and the VC10s and then one day I wound up when I didn’t go on the Jumbo which I really should have done as everybody else did but what I had in mind I knew that the Concorde was coming along and I thought that’s for me and, but when it came to it and I was interviewed for that they said you have to have three years clear service before you can repay the cost of the training and you haven’t got three years clear so there I was on this bloody tripwire that they’d set for me. I couldn’t get on the Concorde.
DK: That was a shame.
JG: And, however, as one door shuts another one opens. The Gulf Aviation in Bahrain were buying some of these VC10s and I was offered a job straightaway to train their guys because at this stage I was an instructor, an examiner and all the rest of the stuff so I went to Bahrain for two years and stayed for six.
DK: Ah.
JG: Yeah.
DK: So did you actually fly the Gulf Air VC10s or were you just training?
JG: Yes I flew the Gulf Air VC10s and then when they got the Tristar
DK: Tristars. Yeah.
JG: I flew that. And it was at that stage that I had to, I’d promised myself with the old Atlantic boys that I met on the Atlantic you mustn’t stay too long. There comes a time when you begin to lose it and don’t stay till then. Go just before. Always leave the party when it’s at its height and I thought this aeroplane can do everything I can do except it does it better. It flies, the autopilot flies better than I can. It does the navigation which was always my weak point, it’ll do the communication. What the hell am I doing here? Time to go. So I quit. Yeah.
DK: So what year would that have been?
JG: That was -
DK: That you stopped flying?
JG: ’74. I came back from Bahrain. It was 1980 I think. Yes.
DK: 1980
JG: Yeah. Came back in time for Christmas and I’ve stayed away from aviation ever since. From that time I had staff travel but they then brought me out of that.
DK: Did you ever get to fly on Concorde?
JG: No.
DK: You didn’t. Oh.
JG: No. Sadly. When I was in Bahrain one of the first flights I did was to Bahrain. I was able to see it and talk to some of the guys that were on it but I really didn’t want to know. I was really very, I was still very huffy about it. [laughs]
DK: So what did you think about the VC10? What was, what was that as an aircraft?
JG: Yes the VC10 was a lovely aeroplane, yes. Really. A winner. It was a shame that they didn’t continue the development but they didn’t. They went all American. So, yes. I was involved very briefly in the saga of the material that Rolls invented. This new, what do you call it? The new -
DK: The engine. The alloys. The -
JG: Yes. Yes.
DK: Yeah.
JG: They were making the blades of this new –
DK: Alloys yeah, yeah.
JG: And we had number four engine was fitted with that on the VC10 with these new turbine blades and they were looking for a favourable report on it and we went down to Lagos. The weather was bad and we diverted to Akra. We ran through some thunder storms and heavy rain and we had to shut the engine down. This number four. And as I walked ashore a guy at the aeroplane was shouting at me to come back. It was the engineer. ‘Come and look at this,’ he said, ‘skipper.’ And it was hanging like knitting. It had shredded. The material was no damned good.
DK: Wasn’t any good.
JG: And I did myself no good by sending in a voidance report saying, ‘Any of you guys with Rolls Royce shares, sell today.’ [laughs] The Americans took up the material and perfected it.
DK: It’s the old story isn’t it?
JG: The old story and they’ve been scoring on it ever since. Yes. And now the whole aeroplane’s made in America.
DK: Yes. So looking back on your time in the RAF particularly your time on Bomber Command how do you look back on it now all these years later? Is it -
JG: I regret to say that I have some misgivings. I had at the time, I think it was Lincoln Cathedral did it for me when I first saw that and I thought armies of men came here and built this thing and what do we do? We try and knock them all down.
DK: Destroy them.
JG: It seemed all wrong to me but that’s the business we were in and I think I kept that idea in mind and I got involved with, let me look and see what I’ve got on that. Oh I think that the, that church there is the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church. My wife and I set about that to see if we could do something about it and I thought I’d go down there what else have I got? Have I got anything on it?
DK: It’s not it there is it?
JG: Oh that’s it. Thanks very much.
DK: Ok.
JG: Yes. I decided that this is the -
DK: Yes I recognise that from my trips to Berlin.
JG: That is the church which we destroyed that but the bell tower is still stood and they kept it as a symbol of defiance. They’d defied the bombing, they’d defied the Russians, they’d defied, defied the partition of the city. Everything. And the bell tower stood and, but it will have to be demolished because bits were falling off it and people were objecting and the council said it would have to be demolished or rebuilt but they had no money so I wrote to them and said why not set up a fund and ask the guys who did the damage to pay for it and I think I’ve got all that here. [London Times?] of your dilemma. You should try to save it. Why not ask the guys who did the damage to make a contribution to a restoration fund and so on and I took part in a number of raids against Berlin starting on the 2nd of December 1943 and on their behalf I would like to make a contribution to the fund of five hundred pounds to start the ball rolling. To my astonishment they took it up. There is the reply from the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church and so the fund was successful. We raised quite a lot of money by giving the sole story to the Berlin newspaper chain that, there we are being interviewed for that. That’s the picture -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Being copied here and so they did it and there we are. That’s myself, my wife and my grand-daughter, my son’s wife Gerlinde. And ‘English bomber pilot triggers off fund raising’ and I’ve, there’s the, it stalled for a bit and then the, raising funds. The guys in this country didn’t want to join in I’m afraid.
DK: No.
JG: They were all raising money for the Bomber Command Memorial here and didn’t want to know about this one. Then, but the National Lottery came in with money and then Angela Merkel -
DK: Oh yeah.
JG: Moved in.
DK: Yes. Yes.
JG: Topped the fund out so -
DK: Yeah.
JG: The restoration started and I think it’s complete as far as I know and I would like to think there might be a big ceremony of some kind but nothing has happened.
DK: No.
JG: It should have been ready last year but then they were celebrating the Berlin wall taken, took everything. I should think if they do it it will be the 26th of November when we destroyed it so -
DK: So, how, how do you feel this is the, you obviously do, it might sound a silly question, is this an important part of your, your life and in some ways a response to your time in Bomber Command?
JG: Yes I think it was. Yes. I think it was. These are a number of smaller shots.
DK: Yeah.
JG: I had made if you want to and, yeah I think it was a reaction to that, a guilty conscience I don’t know.
DK: Did you –
JG: But anyway I’m very pleased that it succeeded.
DK: Yeah. Did you manage to get many more, any more RAF -
JG: No.
DK: Guys.
JG: Very few.
DK: Very few.
JG: I was very fortunate in that the ones I knew and I was able to ring up and talk to them or to their widow they would say, ‘Sorry Jeff. I think you’re a bit off your trolley. It’s not going to work.’ And they were quite right so I said, ‘Ok. I’ll have to do it without,’ and we did get, my wife and I did get invited to the, when they got the glockenspiel working and ringing mid-day but she wasn’t well enough to go.
DK: No.
JG: And so I didn’t get to that.
DK: Ok.
JG: But I have lost touch with them a bit since then. Yes.
DK: Ok.
JG: I’m really hopeful that this crazy Scotswoman who has appeared, Nicola Sturgeon.
DK: Sturgeon. Yes. Yes.
JG: Is moving in everywhere she can. I’ve been in touch with her because I think she’s got some good ideas and she’s one of the people who gets things done. You may not like her or like what she’s doing.
DK: No well. Yeah. Yeah.
JG: As a fellow Scot and she wrote in very sympathetic vein and so I think that I will be in touch with her again to see if there is anything is happening. If there’s going to be a ceremony could she get in touch with Angela Merkel and see if we could arrange a ceremony because having separated Scotland -
DK: Having got that far
JG: She might like to make a fuss of it.
DK: Yeah. Definitely.
JG: So wait and see.
DK: Hope something comes about.
JG: Some of these pictures I’ve got that have been made up are for her attention.
DK: Right.
JG: Because if you hit people with pictures like that they pay attention.
DK: Yeah. Definitely. So how many raids on Berlin did you actually -
JG: Nine.
DK: Actually do. Nine.
JG: Yeah. I met people who did ten and I met people who did dozens more but not of the big sixteen you see. Yeah. And that first one that they did in November which destroyed the church did a lot of damage, you know. It destroyed the zoo and there were wild animals rushing about everywhere and had to be rounded up and that. I think that rather misled the guys in Bomber Command into thinking this was going to be easy but it wasn’t and I think we set off with the wrong kit. The stuff they’d done on the short range, the Cologne and the like, medieval cities, wooden frames, narrow streets.
DK: Burnt.
JG: You set up a fire storm with a bomb that shatters the tiles and the windows and the incendiaries, you know, get into the building and people die in the fire. Lack of, suffocate. But none of us had been to Berlin. It’s not like that. Great wide boulevards and the tall buildings made of stone and brick and steel with sloping roofs and we had the wrong kit. We were never going to set that on fire. Ruined the plane trees in the street, they all burned, you know but the nature of the buildings they were sheltering in they had made passages through from one to the other so if that one caught fire they went -
DK: Yeah.
JG: Into the next one. Yeah. And in the morning they cleared up the rubbish and tidied the street and went back to work and I think the real thing that defeated us was the fact that in the blitz in the UK in Coventry and London it produced a spirit of defiance. And I think if you produce that in people you can’t defeat them.
DK: No. No.
JG: So -
DK: No.
JG: Anyway, so -
DK: And what’s, what’s the German, the Germans you’ve met there, what’s their, been their reaction to this? Has it been favourable?
JG: I think they quite like the idea of their symbol of defiance being turned into a symbol of reconciliation.
DK: Reconciliation.
JG: That’s the theme I pedal. A symbol of reconciliation and I think of late we’ve had programmes showing us Germany and some of the bombing and some of the damage that was done and showing us the places and the people who were affected and being told their stories and, yeah. And I think they’ve been doing a lot on the Dambusters of course who were, became famous because of the wonderful film they made you know and playing with those bombs and it wasn’t until recently that I realised that Churchill was worried about the bombs that hadn’t gone off and that the Germans were able to examine and began making a list of the dams in the -
DK: UK.
JG: In the UK that they could bomb. Yes. Yes. So you learn these things eventually that you didn’t know at the time but I do think that if you get that spirit going among the public that they will not, they will defy you, you’ve lost it. Yeah. You’ve lost it.
DK: Yeah.
JG: Yes.
DK: And did you meet many Germans who were there at the time, when you went out there?
JG: No. I haven’t. No.
DK: Ok.
JG: No. Of course I rely on Gerlinde as my interpreter because I’ve only got a few words -
DK: Oh right.
JG: In German.
DK: So scrape by on -
JG: She can speak German then.
DK: Yes. She’s a Bavarian. Yes.
JG: Oh I see. Right. She’s, right, ok. She’s German.
DK: So -
JG: Or Bavarian I should say.
DK: Yes she would say she’s a Bavarian.
JG: Bavarian.
DK: Yes. Quite right. She’s not German. She’s Bavarian. I’ve made that mistake before.
JG: Yeah. So -
DK: Ok. I think I’ll stop there.
JG: Yes.
DK: It seems a sensible place to stop so thanks very much for that. We’ve been talking for nearly an hour.
JG: It’s been a pleasure anyway. Yes. Yes.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AGrayCJ151017
Title
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Interview with Jeff Gray
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:57:16 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Date
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2015-10-17
Description
An account of the resource
Jeff Gray was a farm labourer in Aberdeenshire when he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. He trained to fly in Texas and completed 30 operations as a pilot with 61 Squadron. After leaving the RAF he worked for BOAC flying Yorks and VC10s.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
United States
France--Mailly-le-Camp
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
61 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
civil defence
crewing up
Halifax
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
pilot
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
Scarecrow
searchlight
training
Wellington
York
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/189/2343/PCaseyJ1502.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/189/2343/ACaseyJ-CaseyV150610.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Casey, John
J Casey
John Casey
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. Collection contains an oral history interview with Sergeant John Casey (- 2016, 2217470, Royal Air Force), an escape map, logbook, service documentation, a wallet and photographs. John Casey served as an air gunner on 61 Squadron in 1944-45.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Casey and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-10
2015-11-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Casey, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JC: Right I’m John Casey. Member of 61 Squadron Bomber Command and my number is 2219470. I met my wife at RAF Coningsby, a farmer’s daughter and we still live on the camp outskirts and that’s about it I think.
I originally worked for Vickers Armstrong’s in civvy street in 1943, of course I was a bit fed up with the job. It was a reserved occupation and one day we had half a day off my friend who worked in the pits and me we went down to Durham City had a day off and had a few drinks and decided we wanted to join the Air Force – air crew. So we went to the recruiting office and as it happened one of the chaps in there was a station warrant officer what I met years later in the RAF. A warrant officer [Holliday]. And we signed on. Of course my friend he had a shift off he worked in the pits. He was refused. He wasn’t accepted but I was accepted and I did my training at Padgate near Manchester and I originally ended up at RAF Coningsby where I met my wife, a farmer’s daughter, at the sergeant’s mess, at a dance one night. And from RAF Coningsby I went on operations, Skellingthorpe near Lincoln and that was where I finished the war. And I was posted to Coningsby.
VC: Wittering.
JC: Wittering yeah. I used to write to my wife from Wittering. I eventually was posted to Coningsby here where I met my wife, a farmer’s daughter, at a sergeants mess ball one night.
VC: But you went lots of other.
JC: Hmmn?
VC: You went to lots of other aerodromes before.
JC: Yes.
VC: You came to Coningsby.
JC: Yes I went to Wittering.
VC: And where you did your flight from
JC: Wittering and where else?
VC: Where you went on your raids. Where you went on your raids. You weren’t at Coningsby then.
JC: No I was Skellingthorpe.
[Inaudible]
JC: On bombing raids. I didn’t quite quite finish a tour. I did two thirds of a tour when the war finished. And from there I was posted to Coningsby where I met my wife in a sergeant’s mess dance one night. She was a farmer’s daughter. And I ended up there at the end of the war. That was about it I think.
[unclear]
JC: Well I was posted to Wigsley on Stirlings, training on Stirlings and then on one of the trips we caught fire, crashed and I bailed out and four members of the crew was killed in it. And then when I got back I was posted to Skellingthorpe on Lancasters. And on one raid there we got shot up over a place called Giesen [?] and we had a navigator killed. We managed to get back with a bit of effort from the bomb aimer. His knowledge wasn’t too good about navigating but he managed to get us back and we landed at Woodbridge at Suffolk. We were there two or three weeks till they got the aircraft repaired. It had got damaged in the attack and we got back to Coningsby and later on I met my wife at a sergeants mess dance. Did I
VC: You did lots more raids before then.
JC: Oh I did a few raids before that.
MJ: Where did you do your training?
JC: Bruntingthorpe on Wellingtons. And I was on Ansons in Wales.
MJ: That’s where you did gunnery training?
JC: Yeah gunnery training in Wales and the OTU at Bruntingthorpe in Leicestershire. From there, from Bruntingthorpe I went to Wigsley on Stirlings. I crashed in one of the Stirlings and I can remember the Caterpillar Club. I have a caterpillar.
Other: What is the Caterpillar Club?
JC: It’s a club for people who bailed out. Saved their lives when the bailed out
Other: Well people don’t know what the Caterpillar Club is so
JC: No.
Other: So that is?
JC: Yeah I’ll explain it.
Other: Yeah that would be good.
JC: It was for members that had bailed out of an aircraft and saved their lives.
MJ: You jumped out with – there was how many people were in the plane at the time?
JC: It was my memory fades. It was a full crew and the screen pilot, screen navigator and they were both killed and we -
MJ: Not all of you got out did you?
JC: Not all of us got out.
MJ: ‘Cause you were actually quite low weren’t you?
VC: You crashed near the Trent.
JC: Yeah.
VC: River Trent.
JC: River Trent. My memory fades.
Other : John you told me, told your grandson some stories. If you can remember some of them that’s great if you can’t don’t worry about it we’ll see what happens just say whatever you fancy.
JC: Well that raid we got shot up it was over Giesen [?] and we were attacked by a Messerschmitt 109 and he killed the navigator outright. We was corkscrewing but the shells coming in the side of the aircraft killed the navigator and from then on we had to rely on the bomb aimer navigating to get us back to this country.
Other : Did you manage to get the 109 or did you have to run out?
JC: We shot at the 109 but we claimed him as a probable, he never come back and we was crippled. We only had three engines. That’s why he attacked us in the first place.
Other: How did you lose the first engine?
JC: We lost an engine going out. We only had three engines. I suppose he thought we were a sitting duck. Anyway he attacked us and his aircraft shells came the side of the aircraft when we were corkscrewing and caught the navigator. Killed him outright. Missed me and the rigger turret which was very fortunate. And then from then onwards we managed to escape and we had to rely on the bomb aimer navigating us back home which he only had a minimum amount of navigation, the bomb aimer. But over the North Sea we were met by a Spitfire and he directed us in to Woodbridge in Suffolk where we landed straightaway and they well washed the aircraft out and repaired it and got back to Coningsby about ten days later.
MJ: The ground crew were amazed it was still flying weren’t they?
JC: Yeah cause the machine gun went through the main spar wing spar and we were lucky to get back and we was down there oh I don’t know ten days to a fortnight.
Other: And did you get any time off in that those ten days? Or did you have to do other things?
JC: Able to go to Ipswich. Used to go into Ipswich, walked there a lot. Hitchhiked. There was a lot of Americans around there and then they got the aircraft mended and washed out. The fire brigade I remember washing it out cause it was all blood. And then sent another crew down to pick it up to go back to
Other: So you didn’t fly your own plane back?
JC: No.
MJ: So how did you get back to base?
JC: We had a crew.
Other: Oh you.
JC: Flown down from Coningsby
Other: So the, I don’t know which plane flew you home?
VC: Wittering
JC: Where
VC: Wittering or
JC: No.
VC: Skellingthorpe.
JC: Skellingthorpe. Just outside Lincoln. That’s where we were stationed. That’s where the bombers were.
Other: So you had a separate crew bring you back.
JC: Yes. Had a crew Skellingthorpe come down to bring us back.
Other: So how long was it before you got back on operations again?
JC: Skellingthorpe. [pause] I don’t think we went
MJ: From when you landed at Woodbridge how long before you went on ops again?
JC: I was at Woodbridge about ten days I think and then this group come down from Skellingthorpe and flew us back.
MJ: And then you were you went back on ops again.
JC: Trying to remember?
VC: Yes you did because you had a new crew.
JC: Yes I went back on ops and I got a different crew. Different navigator. And then from there I was posted to Coningsby when the war finished, to train for the Japanese war. Tiger force they called it.
Other: So what is Tiger Force then?
JC: Tiger force. The RAF that was going out to Japan. Converting over to Lincolns, a bigger bomber than Lancasters. Converting to Lincolns
MJ: So did you actually go on Tiger Force?
JC: We didn’t actually go to Japan but we trained on the Lincolns at Coningsby here. It was Coningsby weren’t it? Lincolns.
VC: They did have Lincolns yeah.
JC: My memory fades I’m afraid.
Other: That’s quite all right when you got your Lancaster back. Or a new Lancaster
JC: Yeah
Other: With a separate crew obviously it takes time to get used to your crew is are there any ops you can remember that that you would like to recite or are you not ready for that yet?
JC: Yes we did. We did some more trips after Harry was killed ‘cause we had a new navigator.
MJ: You always enjoyed talking about Operation Exodus. In Italy.
JC: Oh to Italy.
Other: What is Operation Exodus?
JC: Bring the troops back from Italy for demob.
Other: Could you explain to me how you did that please?
JC: Well the whole of Bomber Command used to go out over to Italy after the war, when the war finished and the whole of Bomber Command would go out to to Maggliano airfield just outside of Naples and we’d stop there for maybe, well the second time we were there for about three weeks and then they brought all the army back in lorry loads. A lorry load to one aircraft and flew, flew them back to England for demob.
MJ: You had a good time in Italy didn’t you?
JC: Yes we had a good time in Italy. And I finished up meeting my wife in Coningsby and I was there the rest of the war wasn’t I?
VC: Yes, yes you were you were demobbed from Coningsby. No you weren’t
JC: Ahum
Other : Were you at Operation Manna?
JC: No
Other: You weren’t
JC: No dropping food to the Dutch. No. Our aircraft wasn’t on that one but the squadron was. You see after we were attacked I was a bit slow in doing the evasive action and that’s why the bullets went in the side of the aircraft and killed the navigator.
Other: Do you, I don’t think you should worry about how fast your actions are.
JC: Ahum
Other: I feel that you might think it was your reactions that took the navigator out. I wouldn’t worry about that.
JC: Yeah.
Other: It wasn’t your fault. It was the situation you were in. You, you rescued the rest of the crew.
JC: Yeah.
Other: So
JC: We managed, managed to get back to this country. Woodbridge.
Other: Yeah I I mean so I can say can don’t worry about that bit just put that to the back of your mind because you did far more than you realise and a lot of other people do so we’re not we’re not looking for you to worry about what you say.
JC: No.
Other: Ok. So you flew out in to Holland. Yes?
JC: Yes for my first operation just [unclear] island off the Dutch coast which was holding up the advance of the army.
Other: So what did that involve? Did you have to -
JC: We had to bomb the emplacements on the island itself. Yeah we lost one or two aircraft on that raid cause I could see them going down.
MJ: Was there a lot of enemy fighters or was there a lot of flak.
JC: A lot of flak.
Other: There was a lot of flak.
JC: There were no fighters at [unclear] just plenty of flack.
Other: How many aircraft went with you? Do you remember?
JC: It was just a 5 Group effort you know. Just one group. Two hundred aircraft that was all but we lost quite a few bombers.
MJ: Was it daytime or night time?
JC: Daytime. It was daylight.
MJ: Yeah. High level? Low level?
JC: No, high level, well medium. Yeah. Yeah I could see the shells exploding outside the turrets cause I had a clear vision. You know the panel was missing. And I could see the shells anti-aircraft bursting on the road. And the aircraft. I could see them going down either side.
MJ: Did you manage to get your bombs dropped on that mission or did you -?
JC: Yes we got our bombs dropped. Whether we hit the breakwater or not I don’t know ahum in fact it was my first operation. Was. Yeah.
[pause]
VC: Well I am John’s wife and I’ve lived around the aerodrome ever since it was built in 1939 and the first aircraft were Beaufort and it was a very short runway in those days going back to ’39. And then we had Mosquitos and then the Lancasters came well we had others in between then but I honestly can’t remember. The Lancasters came and then we had the American Flying Fortresses and they had to extend the runway then because they weren’t long enough so they took quite a bit of my father’s land to build, to do the runway longer and the Fortresses stayed and then we had Manchesters and then we had Lancasters and we finished up the war with the Lancasters still here and while they were here we unfortunately had one or two taking off and crashing. One crashed into one of our fields. Unfortunately all of the crew were killed which was very upsetting. And then later, just later and that on a Lancaster and didn’t gain height and crashed into the gasworks on the River Bain and unfortunately all the crew there were killed and it was most upsetting, and we lost quite a few of the Lincolns, Lancasters on bombing raids. We used to count them coming back cause they flew quite near to our house and we could lie there during the night. They would wake us when they started coming back but they didn’t all come back but well we just used to live the life and we had quite a lot of friendly airmen on the camp. They used to come down to the farm and.
JC: Work.
VC: They used to work on the potatoes and the harvest.
Other: So the airmen actually helped you with the farming as well?
VC: Yes they did Yes they were very good. That was usually the lads that worked in the flying control. They quite, you know, different lads came on different days when they weren’t on duty and yes they were very helpful, very helpful and well we got to know quite a few of the air force, the lads on the, they used to come down to the farm and well some were interested, very interested yes.
JC: Pay them with cigarettes.
VC: Sorry.
JC: Pay them with cigarettes and that, and money.
VC: No. No, my father wouldn’t have encouraged them to smoke.
JC: Well he did.
VC: No.
JC: He did. When I was there. Gave them cigarettes.
VC: Well I didn’t know that. He didn’t let me know that. [laughs] ‘cause we weren’t allowed to smoke [laughs] but no they used to usually get well as far as I know they got paid as they finished because they didn’t come every day. They came probably two or three days and then.
Other: Yeah did you manage to get out of the farm yourself or were you doing so much of the farm work on the land.
VC: Oh I was working alongside them that’s what I spent my life doing yeah.
Other: So you worked and you played hard as well.
VC: No well there wasn’t a lot to do really.
JC: One of our Nissen huts was on the land wasn’t it?
VC: Sorry
JC: A lot of the Nissen huts was next to the farm.
VC: Oh yes we had the aircrew billeted in Nissen huts on part of our field, you know, part of our land.
JC: [unclear]
VC: Yes we used to.
Other: So you never got rid of them?
VC: [laughs] No.
JC: They used to mess about at night when they come home drunk tipping all the crates over and
VC: Oh no they weren’t too bad. Just mischievous
Other: Were you mischievous?
VC: No [laughs] I guess I was yeah. It was a hard life but that was the life. You worked manually. There weren’t the machines. We had horses. We did eventually we did get our first tractor in 1963 but
Other: Did the aerodrome itself affect your farming in any way? Scare your horses or
VC: No not really no no
MJ: Just the fact that they concreted a lot of it.
VC: True yes.
JC: Had a mosquito taking off one day on the runway.
VC: Yes that’s right.
JC: Went Right through the tatie garden didn’t it? Old Mr North, old chap who used to lived with us could have put his hand out and touched it as it went past.
VC: Yes that was a little bit -
JC: We had mosquitos at the time.
Other: Mosquitos used to leave from this airfield as well?
VC: Yes they did. Oh yes.
JC: This was a little while after the war like.
VC: Oh yes we’ve had all kinds
JC: We had Washingtons here those big American ones here. We had them here. Washington aircraft
VC: We even had some Lysanders. Well two Lysanders once.
JC: Ahum
VC: This was at the beginning of the war, you know.
Other: So what happened there then?
VC: No they just used to fly around. I think they used to go over taking photos you know. Used to fly over Germany well not Germany but Holland and the coast there.
Other: So you never knew when they were going to drop in on you?
VC: [laughs] No, that’s quite right. No it was, well it had it’s good times and its bad times.
JC: The aircraft were super forts.
VC: Yeah.
VC: [unclear] weren’t they.
JC: Yes they were.
Other: Did they ever have parties or anything in the billets or did your dad not let them?
VC: Party in the village?
Other: No you said they were billeted on your farm. I wondered if they ever -
VC: Oh, yes – no, no. I mean well you lived that kind of life then.
MJ: What?
VC: I mean you knew they were going on a raid and didn’t know if they would come back so you just accepted that they had to live as
Other: Live fast.
VC: Yes
Other: Did you manage [unclear] with them as well?
VC: No we didn’t see them very much. They were night raiding. They would be sleeping during the day and they used to spend a lot of the time on the airfield because you know they’d got the NAAFI and the
Other: Sergeant’s Mess?
VC: The Sergeant’s mess and what have you was on the airfield and they would go there for their food and what have you and spend their time on the field, on the airfield when they weren’t, weren’t flying. Yeah. Yes I’d forgotten about the Nissan huts
Other: Are they still there or
VC: No no they were taken down years ago. No. Well after the war finished they took them down and worked the land again. It’s back into production. They used to use our land a lot because of the bomb dump was, they had a bomb dump.
Other: Oh what is a bomb dump then?
VC: They used to store bombs.
Other: That was on your land as well?
VC: No just on the edge of our land. Our land went up to it and they used to travel. Put a concrete road through our farm so that it was not mud tracks but they used to go into the airfield. When they’d lengthened the runways they made an exit and you know, into the airfield itself instead of, you know, coming through ours all the time. It was, it’s still there. Course they don’t use it any more.
Other: It’s still there?
VC: It is still there.
JC: Yeah. Bomb dump.
VC: I don’t think, I can’t think of anything else.
MJ: No. How did you meet grandad?
VC: At the sergeants mess dance. Us village girls used to go to the
MJ: So you’d go on the base?
VC: Yes.
JC: Yes she was with her sister and another young girl. A hairdresser. Weren’t you?
VC: Yes.
JC: Three of them.
VC: Yes a group of us used to go.
MJ: How often?
VC: I don’t know. About once a month. Something like that.
JC: Something like that.
MJ: Good parties?
VC: Sorry?
MJ: Good parties?
VC: It was just a dance.
JC: Sometimes they had a buffet didn’t they?
VC: If it was a special one?
JC: Aye. A special one
VC: Yeah but not very often. Not during the war anyway.
MJ: Much to drink?
VC: No. I don’t think there was a bar. I don’t know Tim ‘cause I never drank.
MJ: I bet Grandad did
JC: Aye grandad did.
VC: I wouldn’t have dared. Oh it’s still on.
MJ: Right let me on the behalf of The International Bomber Command Oral History Project thank Warrant Officer Casey and Vera Casey for their stories on the 10th June 2015. The project thanks you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John and Vera Casey
Interview with John Casey
Description
An account of the resource
Before the war, John Casey worked for Vickers Armstrong. He joined the Royal Air Force and completed his training as a warrant officer at RAF Padgate. He learned how to fly Stirling aircraft at RAF Wigsley, Wellington aircraft at RAF Bruntingthorpe and Anson aircraft in Wales. He served at RAF Coningsby where he was trained to fly Lincoln aircraft and was at RAF Skellingthorpe as a member of 61 Squadron. At RAF Skellingthorpe he flew Lancaster aircraft. He survived one air crash by bailing out. On a later occasion, the navigator on an operation was killed and they managed to land in Woodbridge, in a badly-damaged aircraft. He participated in Operation Dodge. John met Vera, a farmer’s daughter, at RAF Coningsby. She recalls life on the farm adjoining the station during the war years, how some of their land was used to extend the runway and how the aircrew used to help with the harvest.
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
Date
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2015-06-10
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Heather Hughes
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00:35:17 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ACaseyJ-CaseyV150610
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Cheshire
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
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Pending review
61 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bomb dump
bombing
Caterpillar Club
home front
killed in action
Lancaster
Lincoln
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Coningsby
RAF Padgate
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Wigsley
RAF Woodbridge
runway
Stirling
Tiger force
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/209/46470/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v370002.mp3
4ae5d4fa0c612b005db71b0077bfe8d1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bell, John Richard
John Richard Bell
John R Bell
John Bell
J R Bell
J Bell
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Wing Commander John Richard Bell DFC (-2024). He was a bomb aimer with 619 and 617 Squadrons in Flying Officer Bob Knights’ crew.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bell, JR-UK
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Interviewer: Well, good morning, John.
JB: Good morning.
Interviewer: Thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview for the Aviation Heritage Project from Lincolnshire here.
JB: My pleasure.
Interviewer: As you know we’re going to be collecting this information and it will go into an Archive and will be of future use for whoever is going to follow us.
JB: Excellent.
Interviewer: I wonder if you could just start by just telling us a little bit about how you came to serve with 617 Squadron.
JB: Yes, I, well I first of all the crew and I started our operational career with 619 Squadron at Woodhall Spa in June of 1943 and we proceeded to operate throughout the rest of 1943 until we moved to Coningsby around about December I think to allow 617 Squadron to come from Coningsby into Woodhall and have the airfield to themselves. And we were approaching the end of our tour, rather our pilot was approaching because he’d done two second dickie trips at the beginning which we hadn’t done and I missed a couple through illness so at some point we, we would have been split up as was the normal situation and sent off to other parts instructing at OTUs. But as a well-knit crew a family organisation as you might say we felt we didn’t want to be split up and we’d like to continue flying which seems a bit silly now when you look back. But we thought we’d volunteer to fly with 617 Squadron and we did and we were welcomed by Wing Commander Cheshire, had an interview and all went well. He said yes, ok. We were an experienced crew by then. So he was looking for experienced crews and we were very fortunate with our survival through to almost the end of our tour and that’s how we came to join 617 Squadron.
Interviewer: You must have been aware of the reputation of 617 Squadron. Did you feel that you really were joining an elite or was it a sense of concern?
JB: We knew we were joining an elite Squadron. We weren’t quite sure exactly what they were doing. In fact, at our interview we were asked why we wanted to join 617 Squadron. We said, well we were fed up with flying at twenty thousand feet and we rather liked this idea of flying low level and he promptly said, ‘Well, we’re not doing low level flying anymore.’ Which as you probably realise that was they attempted to do this after the dams raid and they lost a lot of aircraft.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: So it wasn’t a good idea and when Cheshire took over I think in about November of ’43 he started a different programme of operating which proved very successful. Operating at night over France and with little opposition most of the time at that time during the first few months of 1944. So we knew that the chances of survival were greater or at least we thought they were rather than with the main force. Perhaps with hindsight you’d wonder why you would want to volunteer to continue to fly on operations.
Interviewer: Well, they do say never volunteer but please tell us about your impressions of Wing Commander Cheshire. He’s such an important person in this.
JB: Yes. He was very approachable. Quiet. But he had that quality you knew you were going to follow that man and he would, there was no bombast with him and no sort of dictatorial attitude. He was very quietly unassuming but nevertheless he laid down what he wanted us to do and he was prepared to lead us in this. History shows that he did lead from the front. And he was just a nice man and well respected as a commanding officer with a great deal of experience as a bomber pilot.
Interviewer: Did he give you full regard? You said you had a lot of experience as a crew. Were you encouraged to put your views and experiences into the, into the Squadron melting pot so to speak?
JB: Well, I’m sure the pilot, the pilots really were the people who put the information in actually and they carried the forward the views of the crew but I suppose that when the pilots got together and he was with the pilots discussing tactics and so on took into account what the crews felt. We didn’t directly speak to him about it.
Interviewer: No.
JB: But through the, through the pilot we would. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Would you be able to tell us a little bit about what it was like to be on operations with 617? Could you perhaps describe the run up to and the activities that were involved in preparing for an operation and what actually happened?
JB: Yes. It is pretty much the same as, as all preparations for, for an operational flight and we would be told in the morning that the, there was the likelihood of an operation that evening and we would assemble. Well, we’d go through the process of getting kit ready and so forth and assemble for a briefing in the afternoon and after the briefing we would then get our kit from, you know the parachute and dinghy, Mae West and stuff like that. In the morning of course we would have checked the aircraft out thoroughly so there would be an air test and that was absolutely mandatory to make sure everything worked in the air. And then the bomb load would be checked out. I as the bomb aimer would be responsible for making sure that we had the right bomb load and seeing it put on perhaps, loaded on to the aeroplane. A navigator would also have his own maps and so forth to gather and the gunners would also collect their guns from the armoury. The armoury normally was received, the guns from the turrets and they would check them over and then the gunners would go and collect them and make sure they got the right ones back into the aircraft. So all this went on and checking everything thoroughly and then the, having drawn all the maps and made sure we knew where we were going and the briefing of course would spell out the exact timing of the operation and how many, who were to bomb first. And the particular operations that we were doing with 617 Squadron were, Leonard Cheshire managed to persuade the AOC that he should do the marking because we had, I think they had some experience with poor marking by Pathfinder at the time and so he marked. And that was the first one I think on Albert. I remember that raid where he marked the target with flares from extremely low level with the Lancaster and that was the type of operation that we did throughout the four months. I think up to May. Yeah.
Interviewer: Right.
JB: When we stood down. Yes.
Interviewer: Right. Did you have any experience of dropping any of the heavy weapons that 617 Squadron was equipped with? The Tallboy or –
JB: Well, yes. The, well, during that four months we were not only dropping one thousand pounders but also the twelve thousand pounds light cased [pause] what were they called? It was a blast weapon. So we were used to carrying a twelve thousand pounder but of course the problem with that was yes it was a blast weapon against buildings, normal type buildings and but also had some inaccuracy in it because of its shape and small fins that were necessary to get to enable it to be carried in the bomb bay. Then from, after June the 6th three days later we were equipped with a Tallboy and that’s when we got into the Tallboy era and it was a much finer weapon.
Interviewer: Yes. If I may I’d like to ask you a technical question about that which comes from a question that was put to me recently at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. What was it like? How did you actually ensure that the Tallboy was released very quickly? Was it an electronic or a mechanical release mechanism?
JB: It was an electronic –
Interviewer: Right.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: So there was no time delay in that because you needed extreme accuracy didn’t you?
JB: Yes. You did and I cannot remember any detail of, of problems with the release. Since then many years later I discovered that there were. Why? Why for example there were wide misses with the Tallboy landing somewhere else and there was a problem with the release mechanism. This was a strap.
Interviewer: Yes.
JB: And the straps were taken off the aeroplane on return and they were checked over to make sure they were serviceable and then put back. But there was a problem I understand with them for maybe releasing two or three seconds late which of course affected —
Interviewer: I can see you were —
JB: Yes, it was. Trial and error.
Interviewer: Thank you.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: That’s very helpful.
JB: Yes. I didn’t, I didn’t experience any problems. No. No. Whilst I didn’t hit exactly where I’d aimed the, it was close enough so they were all in the target area.
Interviewer: You were a bomb aimer.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: And from the point of view of the Archive for people visiting this in years to come a question must be asked and that is really to ask your, your feelings about the nature of the job you were doing because you were looking down at the target.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: And you were releasing heavy weapons against that target.
JB: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: With respect may I ask how you felt about that please.
JB: When I was operating with, with main force with 619 Squadron there were occasions when I realised, well obviously one realised that we were aiming at a part of the city where the industry was or the docks area or whatever it was. And hopefully the spot, the spot flares that were dropped by the Pathfinder Force hopefully were in the right area and so you were aiming at that. Nevertheless, you saw a city in flames throughout not just in that one area that you’re aiming at so the thought occasionally was you know that there is some sort of sympathy perhaps for the people who were on the receiving end. Having been through some of the London Blitz I could well understand that. But it didn’t put me off doing the job that I was trained to do. Then following on when we got to 617 Squadron of course not only were we dropping on a specific target, whatever it was, an engine manufacturing plant or but it was a single target which we were aiming at. Therefore, we hoped there were no civilians in the area. In fact, we made quite a lot of, went to a lot of trouble to make sure that the French workers in there got out before we dropped our bombs. So there was a great deal more of more satisfaction because you could see where your bombs were aiming at and where they exploded and you knew that you were taking out a specific target. So the operations were quite different and more satisfactory from, from the expert view of the –
Interviewer: Some military view.
JB: Military view. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. Thank you.
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: That’s a very full answer. Could I ask you also about how you disciplined yourself? You were lying in the nose, you were, you were responsible for, really for directing the aircraft in those last few seconds of flight towards the target.
JB: Yeah.
Interviewer: Most important that you hit the target and yet around you there would have been anti-aircraft fire, possibly the risk of fighter attack. Can you tell us what it was like to to do that part of the operation.
JB: Yes, the, pretty well all the flight to the target and perhaps we’re talking about operating with 619 Squadron in Main Force where you’ve got several hundred aeroplanes. You’re keeping a look out for other aeroplanes to make sure that you don’t collide with them and that was one of the problems of collision and other, and night fighters. But then approaching the target then the adrenaline in started to rise because you could see ahead a flaming city way up, way ahead and the sky would be filled with thousands of shell bursts. Now, this is impinged on my memory I can see this now and thinking how are we going to get through all those shell bursts? But when you, when you get to the point where now you take over and the bomb doors are open and you are guiding with the pilot to keep him on track towards it you are concentrating on the job. You don’t think about anything else and everything else is taken out of your mind. You’re not worrying about the flack bursts. If one hits you well that’s tough. You can’t avoid them so you got on and do the job. Once you’ve dropped the bombs and taken the photograph then you can get out of the area as quickly as possibly and usually there’s a shout from the crew when I said, ‘Bombs gone.’ ‘Right. Let’s get out of here.’ And so it was [pause] if I, I was not, I was never afraid except in coming up to it wondering how we were going to get through. So there was no fear involved. A lot of apprehension. I’m sure we shall be alright and that was really our attitude throughout.
Interviewer: That is a remarkable story. I mean we who have obviously not done it but read a little bit about it —
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: Can understand something of what you’re saying there. It’s a remarkable story, John.
JB: Yes, it’s a bit, it’s akin to the Army coming out of the trenches in the First World War and going en masse across open ground and bullets were flying around. Some of them got hit. Some of them were missed and I think in that respect we were going through all this hail of flak. Somebody got hit, somebody didn’t and we were very fortunate and there was no way you could miss it.
Interviewer: No. And of course, you all lived this strange existence whereby between operations you’d be living a normal life in so far as it could be normal. How did you cope with those ups and downs of feelings and tensions and things?
JB: Well, yes. We’d use our relaxation in the usual way by going to the pub in the evening or into Boston. There was a weekly trip into Boston on the buses and so there would be big relaxation there. But it was just a matter of going to a different pub you know and the crew normally went. Crews went together. They lived together and they drank together and they flew together and so you went with your, with your, the crew were your mates, your friends and it was that sort of thing. Yes. You just, you were thankful when you got to the, to the reported to the flights in the morning to see what was going on for the rest of the day. If there was no operation planned well that was a great relief. You could get on with something else. Go and clean the aeroplane or check it over or take somebody for a flight somewhere. There was always somebody going on leave and it was a fairly easy business flying people around to, you know on a jolly. Well, not a jolly but you know taking them to where they wanted to go for leave or something like that. Or visit another, another airfield. So yeah, we relaxed as much as possible and then got hyped up when it was due for operational flight.
Interviewer: Yeah. Could you, I mean I think I could talk to you all day here, sir. I really could but I appreciate the time is passing. Your time in particular. But I must ask you could you tell us something about some of the other characters that you remember from 617?
JB: 617. Yes. There’s a thing about remembering the crews on the Squadron. I always found it difficult to remember their names mainly because the only names that appeared on the operations board were the pilots. So we knew all the names of the pilots but I didn’t know the names of most of the crews. I might know the names of two or three bomb aimers because the bomb aimers used to go to a briefing together and each member of the crew had his own briefing section. So gunners would know other gunners and I would know two or three other bomb aimers but generally you didn’t know too much about the other crews. You didn’t mix with them obviously for, you know, recreational purposes. But I remember several of the pilots. I can’t remember any particular episodes but they obviously occurred when I was commissioned. I then moved in to the Petwood Hotel and what was the Petwood Hotel then and there were several incidents of people letting off revolvers late at night and behaving in an unseemly manner but being allowed to get away with it with an admonition from the CO. ‘Don’t do it again.’ There wasn’t much he could do about it if you, if you, you know went over the line. But I kept myself to myself because I was, I was escorting a WAAF who later became my wife and so I was otherwise engaged.
Interviewer: As it were. Yeah. Again, I feel I must ask this question. I don’t wish to intrude too much in to your privacy but you know if if you have a strong personal relationship like that and you’re going off on operations was it something that you just accepted?
JB: Yes.
Interviewer: Or did you talk it through with your fiancé as she would have been?
JB: Yes, we did talk it through. She was, she was actually employed in the map section so I had to visit the map section every day and of course I visited more often than most [laughs] naturally and so I went to the Intelligence Section for details of the targets and so forth and she knew as all the ladies did that were engaged to be married to aircrew that they were in a great deal of danger. When I got to the point of approaching my fiftieth operation because you could, you could retire after thirty and we didn’t. We continued flying. When you got to fifty you had another, another stage point where you could say ok. She said, ‘I think we ought to think about the future because –’ and I knew the odds were becoming shorter. They certainly were. And this was proved to me after I left the Squadron because I went back to visit the Squadron in November and I had a chat with my pilot and he said, ‘Oh you retired just in time.’ Apparently, they were shot up on the next operation coming back from Brest and flak actually went through the bomb aimers compartment. Missed the bomb aimer because he was standing up in the turret. Now, I didn’t normally stand up in the turret. I was usually lying down. So was it fate? I don’t know. But I retired at the right time.
Interviewer: I think at that point with regret I must ask that we terminate this. It’s been a total pleasure and total privilege to conduct this interview. For the record I should say that I have been conducting this interview with John Bell, bomb aimer of 617 Squadron and the interview was conducted at Thorpe Camp on the 12th of May 2012.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with John Bell
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v37
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:19:37 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Creator
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Julian Maslin
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
John Bell completed a tour as a bomb aimer with 619 Squadron. The crew decided they would like to continue flying and so volunteered to join 617 Squadron. They were interviewed by Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire and accepted on to the squadron. When John was approaching his fiftieth operation his fiancé asked him to consider retiring from operation flying. He knew his luck was running low and so he did indeed retire. When he visited the squadron later his pilot told him he had retired just at the right time. The next flight after John stopped flying with his crew a piece of flak entered the bomb aimer’s compartment who survived because he was standing in the turret.
Temporal Coverage
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1943-06
Contributor
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Julie Williams
617 Squadron
619 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bomb aimer
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
coping mechanism
ground personnel
Lancaster
military ethos
perception of bombing war
RAF Coningsby
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1126/11618/PSleafordK1701.2.jpg
13f9e909ede91b791863b5b18293fd20
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1126/11618/ASleafordK170412.1.mp3
84c8880848e4dfa2236ec4d64815dd4a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sleaford, Ken
K Sleaford
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken Sleaford. Ken and two sisters grew up at Fen Farm Coningsby during the war. The farm was next to RAF Coningsby.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Sleaford, K
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right, so that’s [unclear], so this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Ken Sleaford at his home on the 12th of April? [unclear] today isn’t it? I’ll put that there. If I’m looking down, I’m just making sure it’s still working.
KS: Yeah
DK: I’ll put that there. As I say, what will happen is, these interviews will go into the centre and that will be online as well, cause what we really want is both people who served in the RAF Bomber Command and those who witnessed certain things
KS: Yeah, yeah
DK: And all that but it’s, I mean, a lot of what we are picking up there is a lot of social history between the 1930s up to the 1950s cause always like to talk about what they were doing before the war and after the war
US: Well, that’s it [unclear] like Dad’s disappeared off the planet, all that’s gone [unclear]?
DK: Yeah, yeah. Ok, then, just ask you Ken, what were you doing immediately before the war?
KS: I was farming with my dad,
DK: Alright, and this was
KS: While I was still at school. Yeah.
DK: Alright. So this was on an old Fen farm
KS: This was old Fen farm, yeah
DK: So, how long had the farm been in your family?
KS: Oh, couldn’t tell you, years, years.
DK: Many generations.
KS: Yeah. And my grandad had it before then like
DK: And so, what sort of farm was it then, what was the, what
KS: Korn, [unclear], sugar beet, then kale and this sort of thing with the sheep, we had beef and sheep
DK: Alright. So, what was your average day like working on the farm? Did you have to get up early and
KS: I get up early, yeah
DK: [unclear]
KS: Night and day when it was lambing time. yeah
DK: So, what time would you get up then for the lambing?
KS: Dad [unclear], Dad used to be up in and out bed all night like, I didn’t know a lot because I was still at school and when I left school cause I worked my dad then like and had the same job then
DK: So how old were you when you left school?
KS: Fourteen
DK: And presumably it was expected that you’d go work on the farm
KS: Yeah, yeah
DK: Alright. So, the farm area then, that’s now taken up by the airfield
KS: That’s right
DK: So, you say a little bit about how that came about? Presumably you lost some of your land to the airfield
KS: Yeah, we lost it all [unclear], we left Coningsby in ’49, that was after the war like, but I just [unclear] first come [unclear] and fill things down. Coningsby opened in 1940 but it started in 1937, is that right? When they first started building the aerodrome
DK: So, can you remember what happened then? Was your father approached by officials to say [unclear]?
KS: I can’t remember, I can’t remember that, they just come [unclear] I was working with my father on one of the farms, come all the bulldozers in there then, pushing hedges up, filling dykes in and
DK: So, the bulldozers literally turned up one day
KS: That’s it, yeah
DK: And they would
KS: That was it, yeah, then gradually getting a bit more and a bit more until they got a lot of the [unclear] like
DK: Alright.
KS: Yeah
DK: And how did your family feel about that then? Were you
KS: Well, [unclear], Dad had that one farm and he had another one at Rayden Corner and another one at [unclear], they all averaged about forty acre a piece
DK: Right, ok, so your father, I mean, lost the one
KS: Yeah, but then, been reloading that one then the man that was in the farm at Rayden Corner, his father died so he was moving into his so we decided to sell the other two, had to get a bigger one which we did at Gayton le Marsh then like.
DK: Can you recall if your father was given compensation for the loss of [unclear]
KS: I can’t remember that, no, can’t remember that, he’d be bound to be but had [unclear] like yeah.
DK: So, what do you remember about the buildings that went on then? Was it day and night?
KS: Oh yeah, we had lodgers in right from the start then, Irishmen ran those building and everything
DK: I was gonna ask, actually where the labourers came from, were they basically?
KS: There was Irish and all sorts, we had lodgers right from the beginning, all through the war we had airmen and everything
DK: Right
KS: We had a big house with six, seven bedrooms like, so we used to let them to the workmen then when the Air Force come, they moved in
DK: And can you remember the day the Air Force did move in? Was
KS: The first aeroplane coming in, it was in trouble that was when all the [unclear] up the aerodrome went actually opened then, that was a Spitfire one Saturday afternoon, it come in right through the [unclear] till it got to the other side cause it hit one and that crashed him. That was the first one, then the Hampdens come and there was on a Sunday morning, they all came in on a Sunday morning the Hampdens did, that was the first bombers like
DK: So, what did you think when you saw all these Hampdens landing? I guess you’ve seen them land.
KS: Yeah, I always stood in the yard just behind the yard like, just watching them all land in, I was more or less on the aerodrome all the time opened to it because the crew doors open and everything cause the cows and everything beyond the airfield like
DK: So, the airfield itself wasn’t sort of barbed wired or anything off it you could just wander onto it
KS: Yeah, we used to play on the peri-track and things and the runways when they [unclear] then was a long time before they brought the runways but they say the Hampdens come and then the Manchesters came, then the land was so wet and boggy they couldn’t get off with the bigger planes so they had to move back to Waddington then I think
DK: Right
KS: And then they put the runways in
DK: So, up until that point it would’ve been a grass
KS: Yes, grass, yeah
DK: [unclear] yeah
KS: Yeah, and the planes used to, the Hampdens used to come round over the top of the building taking off and loading up with the bombs and everything, I was right on the aerodrome all the time but while they came over the buildings I don’t know cause the far side was all clear, nothing in the road at all [laughs]
DK: Oh, right, so, you then had the crew billeted, did you, did you have to do that then, was it something you wanted, your family wanted to do or were you asked to take in the various aircrew?
KS: No, just [unclear] like, yeah, [unclear] lodgings and which mother took in same way all the aircrews, they used to call in for a cup of tea in the morning and things and then if they were going on ops, if there was council for an hour they used to come back in the house and sit in the house and have coffee and two [unclear], yeah.
DK: Did you get to know any of the aircrew well?
KS: Oh yeah, I had three sisters not alive then [unclear] well one of my sisters, not the eldest, the next one, she got in the Lancaster and went through fly around Blackpool, one morning Dad says, where’s Lily gone? Nobody said cause they knew where she was and doesn’t tell Dad [laughs]. Yeah. Now we had crews in and well, we got to know a lot of Australians, everything was in there then like, [unclear] Lancasters was parked one there, one there, we was here in the house like, was Lancasters all around
DK: So, that’s a long time ago, can you remember any of their names at all?
KS: No, can’t remember, remember some of the
DK: Ah.
US: [unclear] saying that
DK: Just, this is just for the recording here, so there is a picture of the aircrew there in front of a Lancaster
KS: Yeah, [unclear]
DK: This is
KS: After that with all the signatures behind
DK: And on the back the signatures
KS: That’s it, yeah. [unclear] The flight sergeant
US: In appreciation of many happy mornings spent
KS: A flight sergeant, Flight Sergeant George Cherry, he was lodging with us at the time, he used to develop the fighters when they came back off ops
DK: Alright, so this photo then was given to your family then in appreciation of
KS: Yeah, they used to sign that when is it been in the house like for coffee and things like that
DK: So there’s quite mixes, some, so there’s a Rhodesian
KS: Yeah, oh, there’s all sort
DK: Jamaican, so then you got Judges Johnny’s crew
US2: All the names of the crews
DK: And then the name of the crews, yeah, so Princes Joe’s crew,
US1: [unclear] like them
DK: It’s ok
US1: You’re alright? Yeah?
DK: I’m just trying to make out the signatures
KS: Let’s put that light on but
DK: [unclear] crew
US2: There was somebody at Coningsby, at BBMF was trying to research, trying to find out some of them but they haven’t come back to me
DK: There’s here, there’s nothing on here to identify the actual [unclear]
KS: No, can’t remember any, no, [unclear] don’t know
DK: That’s a bit unfortunate that
KS: Yeah
DK: Obviously one of the Coningsby based squadrons
US: I think the squadron number’s on the back in, the squadron number on the back
KS: The squadron is 97
DK: [unclear] 97 Squadron, yeah
KS: 83 and 97 Squadron, yeah
DK: So, this is gonna be either 83, 97 or combination of the two
KS: There’s a Squadron [unclear] Lancasters there to move back into
US1: Get in touch with you Karen tell you what
US2: Yeah, some of them were, Coningsby BBMF were trying to get sorting out
US: Yeah, some people have got in touch with you on Facebook [unclear] seen it and told you what it was
US2: Yeah
US1: No? Sorry
US: Yeah, no, I think you’re right
DK: I’m trying to think, maybe it’s one thing I have seen this before, was it on Facebook?
US2: Facebook
DK: Ah! Speaking of deja vu
US1: Yeah, I’ve seen it before
DK: I recognize it now, yeah
US2: But there were some replies from on that and comments on that on Facebook. You see how close the aerodrome was to the farmhouse
DK: Yes, yeah
US2: And we always sort of laugh and think that the little boy standing there might be this one here [laughs], we never know.
US1: No
KS: No, that was the same photo like
DK: Right, yeah
KS: And that was the squadron over there
DK: That’s [unclear] 54, isn’t it? 54 Squadron?
KS: That’s the farmhouse and there’s the Manchester, as you see, was right on the aerodrome
DK: Alright
KS: [unclear] that one is
DK: So, is the farm building still there?
KS: No, no
US1: Gone now
KS: It’s all gone now, it’s all gone
US: There is still a tree there. There is still a tree there where the farmyard was but up until three or four year ago you could still get to it but the fence off now, you can’t get to it
DK: Just for the recording again, there is a photo of Fen farm,
KS: Yeah
DK: Fen farm, with an Avro Manchester at the back, then a close up of Fen farm
KS: And that was took out the Manchester and the Lancaster cause our flight sergeant what lived with us, he took the photos, had a fly round took the photos
DK: So, you knew who took this then. That’s been taken from one of the aircraft
KS: Yeah
DK: Yeah
KS: Yeah
US: You said that was a chap called Mr Cherry, did you?
KS: Yeah, George Cherry
DK: George Cherry
KS: And flight sergeant, I tell you he did that for photos when he come back from ops like [unclear] but I used to go and watch him
US1: He used to do it in the kitchen at the house [unclear] they developed the film what they took over where they’ve been bombing, you had to develop them in the kitchen when they got back [laughs]
KS: Yeah
US2: [unclear]
US1: Yeah
DK: He must have known where they’d been before it was announced in the, on the radio
KS: Yeah, yeah. Lord Haw Haw, was it? Haw Haw, he used to come on the radio telling us where they were going and what the Germans is doing [clock chimes]
DK: You got to know a lot of the aircrew quite well then?
KS: Yeah.
DK: Yeah
KS: Yeah
DK: So, after the runways were built, presumably that’s when the Lancasters arrived?
KS: That’s right. Yeah, yeah.
DK: And can you remember the first time you saw those?
KS: Yeah, it coming on a Saturday and the first Lancaster, it passed just behind our house, I was playing with my mate, course I couldn’t get home fast enough, and it was a white one. It was a white one, on this book here I’m reading that lady, she used to deliver all these Spitfires and things, don’t know what you call her, oh Mary Ellis, yeah. That’s quite interesting that book is
DK: Cause she’s still alive, isn’t she, Mary Ellis?
KS: Yes, she’s just been having her ninetieth birthday.
DK: A hundred.
KS: A hundred, yeah, a hundred. She went up in a Spitfire as well.
DK: Yeah
KS: Yeah
DK: So, you can remember the women flyers delivery?
KS: Yeah, we had the WAAFs, someone airmen was married to the WAAFs, there was transport [unclear] brought crews round in like a minibus like, yeah and one of the chap [unclear] was these Air Force place he was married a WAAF remember him [unclear] used to call him [unclear] was, yeah, but I think [unclear] they’ve gone like and that, that’s what we did,
DK: [aircraft droning sound] I haven’t lived in Lincolnshire for very long, [unclear] seven years, still getting used to this
US1: [laughs] [unclear]
KS: Frank [unclear], he was another, I’m not sure whether he was a crew member or not but he got very [unclear] with me sister and we kept in touch with him after he retired and he went to live in Scotland then I think, or Wales was it? He still kept in touch but he died about two years ago he did yeah.
DK: So your family then did stay in touch with some of the
KS: Yeah, we got a friend Will [unclear] and [unclear] kept in touch with my sister right up to his death now
DK: Ok, can you remember the actual raids themselves, the aircraft going out and coming back?
KS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember one coming in one night and he parked [unclear] in front of the house and there’s nearly all night, [unclear] there’s all shut up, yeah, I remember that and one night one of the Hampdens was there, one crashed behind the yard and it had a land mine on and we had to move out that night and had to go round Raydhan Corner so we had to move out and but while we had to move out which’d been alright as long as it didn’t rain, I never got over that, is it rain with that landmine went off or not.
DK: So I suppose you know it was defused then, it didn’t, it never exploded.
KS: It could’ve been, no, it was alright but, we’d come back next day, it was Manchester, they had quite a lot of trouble with them
DK: Yeah
KS: [unclear] In that book, on that book I think, where I was coming out from school and seeing going round and round, just one wheel down, just got home as it landed, cause [unclear] the ground and that was it, I remember him coming in
DS: So, he spun on the ground then, did he?
KS: That’s it, yeah, so was it, ground it spun like
DK: And can you remember the aircraft coming back damaged at all?
KS: Yeah, yeah, there used to be some little aeroplanes [unclear] the WAAFs used to drive them all out, used to be an Avro Anson, Airspeed Oxford and the Lysander. And the Lysander it used to pull [unclear] behind for shooting at us and one of them come back and they shot at the plane and this air Flight Sergeant what lodge with us, he had to go and chalk all round the [unclear] and take photos of us, I can remember that,
DK: Find out who did it.
KS: Yeah
DK: [unclear] a good shot
KS: Yeah
DK: So how did you sort of look back on that time know and?
KS: Oh, I can remember quite a lot about that life, yeah, used to let us, we could go across the aerodrome, before they really fenced it all, got corner of before they fenced it off, they never bothered at all, we used our proper bikes up Lancaster while we was attending the cows in the fields, it was like that, no, it never bothered at all, we used to bike about and play on the runways
DK: So, how old would you’ve been then? You’re a teenager then or?
KS: Yeah, I’d be, ten, eleven or somewhere on there, I think. I remember playing on there one Saturday afternoon and seeing this plane come over, these black objects came out and went on as crows, these bombs Gerry had come, so, Mum, come and [unclear], Granny, come and see this, this plane about on the runway on the trike
DK: While the Germans were bombing it
KS: Yeah, you had to go in the house quick and of course all around the aerodrome they’d built air raid shelters for us and nights and nights we more or less lived in the air raid shelters cause when the airplanes came back, Germans used to come with them, was going round and round all night, we had to spend the biggest part of the nights in the air raid shelters. We got incendiary cases, all sorts, in the yard, incendiaries, never set a yard of fire out and bombs went right across to neighbours one night and I remember Dad going to see if the neighbours were all right [unclear]
DK: So, by, war’s end then and it’s all a bit quieter now, so you’ve actually lost the farm completely in 1949?
KS: That’s it, yeah
DK: Right. And it’s that when it was demolished or
KS: Yeah, soon after, yeah.
DK: Was that because the airfield was extending or?
KS: That’s right, yeah. Had the jets coming, they want extended and they closed that Boston [unclear] from Rayden Corner to Coningsby closed that road completely, now you gotta go right round [unclear] now like so they extended well, I think the Americans come after that then the Vulcans, they come after that
DK: So, where were you, which farm were on at this point then when?
KS: When we left?
DK: Yeah
KS: We lived at Fen Farm.
DK: Fen Farm. Yeah
KS: Yeah
DK: And but when that was knocked down, which farm did you go to then?
KS: Well, [unclear] Near Louth, Gayton Le Marsh, Dad bought another farm up there, hundred and ninety-seven acres, so we moved up there then like
DK: So then you, for the rest of the time then you’ve worked farms from then on.
KS: That’s right, yeah. I never come back for years then like, never come back we nearly lost that like, but we still go down [unclear] where it is, get to [unclear] just see this poplar tree still there where the farm was
DK: Yeah. Ok, I’ll just pause there.
KS: Yeah
DK: I’ll just put that back on again, sorry you were saying
US: There are some parachutes coming down here, didn’t know what they was
KS: No. The Halifax was coming back, he was in trouble and they wouldn’t let him land at Coningsby so they bailed out over Coningsby which turned in chaos, they thought it was Gerry come, run the cows in the field and jumped over this train and hid in the bushes while things settled down, anyway the Halifax, it landed at Woodhall, it got down alright but there’s only the crew, biggest part of the crew bailed out at Coningsby like, that put the wind up [unclear] always [unclear] Gerry had come
DK: Did you actually see the Halifax or just
KS: Yeah
DK: Yeah
KS: Yeah, yeah, it just come flying over the train why they wouldn’t let him land at Coningsby I don’t know that’s what the, that’s flight sergeant told us anyway
US1: And then when they’re building the runway and things you used to play on the dumpers at night
KS: Yeah, I [unclear] got the dumper there, started this dumper up we couldn’t just start it and went for a ride, course it stopped, didn’t it? Then we had to wind it back, put in gear and wind it back, couldn’t just started them all. Now the Air Force used to come down with the cows and things used parking for a coffee or anything, we used to try most of them out as when they come and to have a ride, didn’t bother at all, you scam right round the yard and bring them back where we started from
DK: Can you remember back at some of the aircrew who you [unclear] on ops that you didn’t see again?
KS: No, I can’t remember the names, I can remember the one, one the field just get in the house, they didn’t come back one night, just asked the aircrew, the ground staff like was it coming back, no, it’s gone, they said, that was it like
US1: You used to have a few prisoners of war working on the farm, didn’t you?
KS: Oh, we had the Germans [unclear] working for us at Coningsby like, yeah
DK: Was that during the war itself or start,
KS: Yeah
DK: During the war itself.
KS: Yeah
DK: Yeah. Were they good workers, the German POWs?
KS: The Germans were not [unclear] [laughs]
DK: A bit lazy, were they?
KS: Yeah. They weren’t very good, most of them wanted to get [unclear], yeah
DK: And did you get to know any of the POWs at all?
KS: Yeah, one, well, was a real old chap and he was about to come to live in, Dad’s got him to come to live in with us, like he just [unclear] wanted to go back but he didn’t want to go back, he was going back to the Russian zone and something and he didn’t want to go back [unclear] was when he got back, well, I’ve still a letter somewhere and when he got back, poor chap, the wife had divorced him and his [unclear] nobody wanted to know him, he died soon after then like but he was [unclear] he was, a real good worker, he used to come in the mornings start work without being told what to do or anything
DK: So, you quite liked the Germans you met then.
KS: Yes, we got on well with them, yeah. There was one man, he was only eighteen, he did live next door, next farm like, he used to come to us lads and play about [unclear] a nice lad, yeah
DK: So, they had quite a bit of freedom then, POWs
KS: Yeah, yeah
DK: Cause they didn’t have anywhere to go really, did they?
KS: No, I mean, lived at [unclear] far away like. I used to come off and Dad used to fetch him on a Sunday for dinner and on a Sunday with us as well, this old man, he was really a nice chap, he was
DK: And did they speak English?
KS: Yeah. Not too bad at all, no.
DK: You weren’t speaking German to them?
KS: No, never [laughs]
DK: So, you were able to communicate
KS: Yeah, yeah
DK: Ok, that’s,
KS: Yeah
DK: [unclear] alright. So how do you look back on those times now? It must have been, for a child I guess, quite an adventurous childhood but
KS: Yeah, it was, yeah
DK: Did you realize the whole of what was going on, that it was a war and [unclear]?
KS: That’s right, yeah, yeah, I remember most of it like. Remember
US1: Did you realize how big a thing it was, what was happening or not? Or was it just?
KS: Oh yeah, I remember. I can remember the first bomb coming over, had it did go whistling past the house and it dropped at the public school [unclear], right in front of the house, blew all the windows and doors and everything [unclear]
Dk: So you knew the dangers of what was going on?
KS: Yeah, yeah.
US1: And then all the bombs were parked down the roadside, wouldn’t they?
KS: Well, the bomb dump was just behind the yard, where that Manchester stood, there’s one bomb dump there
DK: The bomb dump, yeah.
KS: Just behind there, the bomb dump was just behind there somewhere, [unclear] the bomb dump was just behind us like and there is another big bomb dump at near [unclear] in the wood there like and down the road down there from New York, the bombs were all stacked down the roadside there then nearly on a Sunday morning, me and my cousin used to go at [unclear] station on the side line watching them taking bombs, used to bring them to Coningsby up the rail, then on a Sunday morning we used to go and watch them like
DK: As they came off the railway line
KS: That’s right, yeah
DK: And then onto the trucks [unclear]
KS: That’s right, yeah, I remember that. Never bothered about us being about at all like
DK: I think the health and safety would have something to say about that now, wouldn’t it? Kids at home [unclear]
KS: [unclear] near Coningsby now, it’s all fenced all round like
DK: Yes, yeah, yeah
KS: I keep trying to get a ride on the Lancaster, but I can’t get one
DK: But you said your sister did that
KS: Yes, my sister went, yeah, she went
DK: Did she ever say what it was like [unclear]?
KS: No, she liked it, yeah, she liked it, yeah. I went, I had a look round it, yeah, used to take them in, look round one, yeah, I’ve been in one. I can remember [unclear] in the wintertime they used to grease the wings or something, stopping from freezing up and when the years come used to wash them in petrol, petrol was running [unclear] in gallons, wasted gallons on gallons, [unclear] about these airliners still freeze up the same cause [unclear]
DK: Yeah. The antifreeze on the wings now wasn’t petrol I think
US2: Probably slightly better
DK: So, after the war then, do you remember much about Coningsby then and?
KS: No, after the war we soon left then like, can’t remember what come after but said the Vulcan and the Hurricanes come but, yeah, now I can’t remember what happened to the airplane during [clock chimes], well, that one there at East Kirkby, it was stationed at Coningsby one time cuas Squadron, [unclear] Squadron
US1: But you still [unclear] at the park is it at the end of the war, wouldn’t you?
KS: Yeah, oh yeah. We used to go on camp to the pictures and things, me sister used to take us to the pictures and things, I never bothered about anything in the war, airmen was lodging was never short of cake or anything used to bring from the NAAFI, yeah, no, well, we only kids is all excited about everything then like
DK: [unclear] Yeah, yeah. Ok then
US2: [unclear] she remembers cause she’s my younger sister making her toys
DK: Right
KS: That was the Germans, they could make anything, couldn’t they? and [unclear] made my brother, he’s a lot younger, they made him German caps same as [unclear] Lily lived in
DK: You have still got them then?
KS: No.
DK: No.
KS: No.
DK: This was the German prisoners making them?
KS: That’s it, yeah
DK: Yeah
US1: Got anything in the cupboard there that the Germans made?
KS: No
US1: [unclear], didn’t they?
KS: No, nothing they made
US1: That brass bolt, didn’t the Germans make it?
KS: No
US1: No, I thought they did.
KS: No. I don’t think so.
US2: You’re ok?
DK: Yeah. Just
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ken Sleaford
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASleafordK170412, PSleafordK1701
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Pending review
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00:30:07 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Sleaford was born and raised near Coningsby on the family farm. Tells of life on the farm before and during the war, when it was handed over to the Air Force, to be converted into an airfield and incorporated into RAF Coningsby. Mentions various episodes: seeing a Spitfire for the first time; Irish labourers working on the site; the friendly relationship with the aircrews; spending nights in the air raid shelters; a flight sergeant lodging at their house; an aircrew bailing out of a Halifax; driving the dumpers; German prisoners of war; watching the bombs being delivered by train. As a little boy, he remembers having a very exciting and eventful time. After the war, he moved with his family to another farm at Gayton le Marsh.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
childhood in wartime
Halifax
Hampden
Lancaster
Manchester
prisoner of war
RAF Coningsby
Spitfire
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/516/8748/PHatchM1501.2.jpg
d8ea507c92b2911874f3a4250ee60fa2
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/516/8748/AHatchM150730.1.mp3
22d3ce0e673b6b1303951b257282fcc8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Hatch, Maurice
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Hatch
Description
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An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Maurice Hatch (137372 Royal Air Force). He served with 97 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MJ: It's on now.
MH: My name is Hatch, Maurice Edward Hatch. My rank in the RAF at the end of the war was a squadron leader. [background noise] I was seventeen when war broke out and I volunteered for air service with the RAF and when I went before the committee who considered these things, I was asked what was my position in civil life and I said that I was an article clerk training to be a chartered accountant, whereupon I was immediately designated potentially as a navigator. I never had the chance as being trained as a pilot. On the whole, I think probably in the long run I didn't regret it. I actually went into the air force in about October of 1941 and after initial period of square bashing in some of the delightful holiday resorts of this country like Torquay, Brighton and Eastbourne I went on my flying training in South Africa. I sailed from Liverpool and I sailed in great luxury in a converted Dutch meat ship, from which the covers over the holds had been removed and down which a rickety wooden staircase had been mounted down which we all came. Then, of course, having the exalted rank lowest form of animal life and ordinary airmen and with a pack on my chest, a steel helmet on the back and the big pack on the on the back and you went down until my steel helmet was touching the back of the man in front until effectively the hold of that meat was a mash of human beings. Having got to the point where you couldn't get another mouse in, they said that was enough. They then tried to sort out the sleeping accommodation which was hammocks from the ceiling, so close together that they were touching and I never did get one. The trip took six and a half weeks, I spent that six and a half weeks sleeping on a straw palliasse under the mess table, and life was hard to say the least of it. We were three days stationary, moored outside Freetown in the hot season which was almost unbearable and we eventually landed in Durban. I won't tell you all the details of the journey because they are sordid in the extreme, suffice to say that I hope I never get nearer to hell than that! For two or three days we were under canvas on Durban racecourse and then we went to East London on the east coast of South Africa, south of Durban. And I was there for almost a year doing my initial navigational training. We were very lucky, myself and two other people with, with whom I'd joined up, we were, if you like, befriended by a family of Scottish origin who lived in East London and the husband was in fact the Union Castle representative in East London, Union Castle being the most powerful body in South Africa at that time, they ran the weekly ship to Cape Town before the war and owned most of the principal hotels including, of course, the famous Mount Nelson in Cape Town. The training period in South Africa from a flying viewpoint was not really particularly noteworthy, what was more noteworthy was the ability to live on fruit and food which we hadn't seen in this country for a long time, and also, not quite so fortunately, the rather strong but extremely cheap South African brandy. I eventually finished the training after about a year and went to Cape Town to board a ship home. In the interim whilst I was there, the husband of the family who had befriended us had been promoted and had become the Union Castle's principal agent [background noise] in Cape Town and was therefore in Cape Town finding a house to which he could move his family. He was staying at the Mount Nelson Hotel and therefore my last night before going home, I went to dinner in the famous Mount Nelson Hotel which was a fairly unforgettable experience, particularly at that time going back as I was to wartime rationing. I was lucky in that on the return I was on an American trooper which was not in convoy and so went very much faster and we we got home in about two and a half weeks, and the only misfortune was that for some administrative reason which I have never understood, the fact that I had been commissioned had not reached South Africa and I therefore went home as a sergeant and regretted the fact that I didn't have the officer's quarters. However, that was rectified when I got home and I went to Harrogate which was the usual place where aircrew were accommodated on their return from Canada, South Africa, Rhodesia, as it then was, and the very few from the United States, where effectively all of this flying training had been carried out. After some leave, I started on the further long process in the training channel which included, of course, the crewing up and we formed into a crew. Strangely enough, that was done largely by us ourselves rather than by any officials. We sort of went around and tried to decide people with whom we thought we might get on and in effect established a crew ourselves, and this we did. I was in fact the only commissioned officer in the crew; all the others were sergeants or flight sergeants. We went through the various stages, going from Wellingtons after a short period, we were onto Stirlings and then eventually onto Lancasters, and my first posting to a squadron, an operating squadron, was to 630 Squadron which was at East Kirby in Lincolnshire, and it was a very sudden and very marked experience of the reality of war after the joy of South Africa, where, frankly, the war seemed a long way away. And we finished up playing tennis and swimming rather than worrying too much about flying. On arrival at 630 Squadron, it was at the time when the raids in Berlin were going on almost nightly, and at that time, and maybe at all times I don't know but certainly at that time, it had become the practise that when a new crew, a sprog crew arrived on the squadron with no experience, the captain of the crew, the pilot, went first as a second dicky with an experienced crew, and we had arrived on the squadron at about ten-thirty in the morning, by mid-afternoon ops had been announced and we subsequently discovered it was on Berlin. My pilot was assigned as a second dicky to an experienced crew and off he went and did not return. He must have had the shortest tour of operations of anybody, one take off and one landing, the landing being by parachute. I'm delighted to say he survived the war and came through but he was of course a prisoner of war in that intermediate period. I was therefore left with the remainder of my crew within twenty-four hours of having arrived on the squadron of going away again with a delightful RAF expressions being the head of a headless crew which always struck me as an oddish [?] phrase. We went back to conversion unit, and this I suppose was one of my lucky periods during my life, I always find it slightly guilty or referring to another man's misfortune as being one of my luckies, but we linked up on our return to conversion unit to an experienced New Zealand pilot. If my memory's right, he was then a flight lieutenant, he had done a tour earlier in the war and had been instructing and had now come back for a second tour and we had no captain, he had no crew, and so the obvious thing was to put us together, and this was very lucky. The strange part about this was that he was a tough, back-woods, New Zealander whose language was frequently fairly colourful, but he had a strangely sentimental streak because his first tour had been on 97 Squadron, he was desperately anxious that this second tour should also be on 97 Squadron. The only problem was that in between the two dates, the Pathfinder Force had been formed and 97 Squadron had become one of the Pathfinder squadrons. Generally speaking, people, in quotes, volunteered to go on the Pathfinder Force, although I think frequently it was a form of volunteering which usually involved the twisting of an arm or two. But it was after seven or eight operations had been successfully completed and the crew had broadly shown itself as being competent. This, of course, was not the case; my New Zealand captain’s name was Smith, and he was always called Smithy by us, and he, of course, was an experienced pilot, but he had a crew who had never done an operation in their lives, and particularly a navigator, i.e. me, who had never been on an operation in his life. Somehow, he succeeded in getting us onto 97 Squadron; how he did it, whose arm he twisted, I have never known, but the fact remains that we did. Accordingly, I started once again by going then for, I think it was four or five weeks’ intensive Pathfinder navigation training at the PFF headquarters, PFF had become 8 Group, and the headquarters were outside Huntingdon, and for the moment I’ve forgotten its name.
MJ: Wyton.
MH: Wyton. And, well, I, I obviously successfully dealt with the specialist training because, at the end of the period, we were appointed, we were posted to 97 Squadron, which had just about turned up at Coningsby, having previously been somewhere else which I’ve moment forgotten, and I suppose the good fortune of that alignment with Smithy very quickly showed itself, because our very first operational trip as a new crew, we were attacked by two ME-109s, and I hate to think what, with an entirely inexperienced pilot and crew, might have happened. As it was, Smithy put us into a power dive and we successfully escaped, and I always remember, as we, nose went down and, of course, everything, the charts, the protractors, the dividers, the pencils, everything went all over the place, and all I remember was Smithy shouting ‘Never mind about the bloody charts, tell me if there are any hills around here!’ I don’t know how he thought I was going to do that, because of course the, the map showing such things as hills had gone with all the rest. However, eventually I did find it and told him that there were no hills, but by then it was too late, because fortunately there was none, and we were on our way home, fairly low, waking up a few French along the way. Well, after that, we had a comparatively inexperienced and exciting time, fortunately, the usual little problems of sometimes getting splattered by shrapnel from bombs exploding around one, but nothing really terrible except, I suppose, we, one, one, one night, a hydraulic pipeline was severed, and it wasn’t quite known whether or not the undercarriage was going to lock down, and so we were diverted to the diversionary airport at Manston in Kent, which, strangely enough, was a place to which I became quite attached and very accustomed later after the war. Smith finished his tour, his second tour, after twenty ops, and we were still there. The usual arrangement in the Pathfinder Force was that, instead of doing the normal stint of thirty ops in a first tour, then a period off and twenty on a second tour, one was encouraged to do forty-five ops through immediately, one, ah, all in one go, on Pathfinder Force, presumably because of the additional training and experience which one had gained in Pathfinder operations. I had by then become reasonably accustomed to my duties with H2S as it was then, the early form of radar, I suppose the predecessor of many of the systems with which we are accustomed now in our motorcars or boats or anything like that. By today’s standards, it was fairly primitive, but on the whole, it worked, and I effectively did forty-four operations, finishing my forty-fourth just about at the end of the war, and I think I’m right in saying that I failed to find the target first time only once in those forty-four operations. Again, we had one or two bits of excitement; by then, I was flying with the squadron commander because, when Smithy had finished his second tour, once again, we found ourselves as a crew without a pilot, and the squadron commander had just completed a tour and had gone, and he, his successor, a group captain, Group Captain Peter Johnson, the Pathfinder Force generally had ranks which were one up from the general Bomber Command so that, whereas most bomber squadrons were commanded by wing commander, Pathfinder squadrons generally commanded by a group captain, the flight commanders were wing commanders whereas usually they were squadron leaders, and leaders (wireless, navigation, gunnery and so on) were usually squadron leaders instead of flight lieutenants. And, of course, with the passage of time and people finishing their tours and, sadly, finishing their tours in other ways, meant that promotion was fairly quick and eventually found myself as a squadron leader, acting squadron leader, anyway. And I suppose at the age of twenty-three, briefing Pathfinder squadrons, it was good experience which has stood one good in civil life after the war. Only one thing, well, I suppose two things, really, stick in my mind: one is that we were coming back one evening from very long flight, somewhere way over in, I, Stet – somewhere in Poland, we’d been airborne for about nine hours and were running really rather short of fuel, and it was foggy, good old Lincolnshire fog, and we couldn’t get in at Coningsby. At Metheringham, which was close by, there had been installed a system which was called FIDO, which took the form of a, a channel being put alongside the runway and filled with aircraft spirit of some sort, and which I, in foggy conditions, it was lit, the idea being that the heat generated would disperse the fog. Unfortunately, the people who did it forgot the fact that the, the fire itself would have created more smoke, and we had problems. We went ‘round twice and couldn’t find the, the, the ‘drome, the –
MJ: Flare path?
MH: [background noises] I was saying that my captain had considerable experience in finding the flight path, we went ‘round twice and by then the fuel was running dangerously slow, ah, short, and fortunately, we turned on a third time and both the pilot and the flight engineer, more or less at the same time, just got a glimpsed, glimpse of the flight path and Peter Johnson very cleverly (not easy on a Lancaster) effectively side-slipped onto the air, airfield. We had a very bumpy landing but at any rate, we did get down in one piece. We subsequently discovered that part of the difficulty was not only the smoke created by FIDO itself but the plane that had come in immediately before us, or had tried to come in, had failed and had crashed right through the woodland alongside the, the aerodrome and all members of the crew were killed. So that was not a – it wasn’t the best of evenings when we got back in, in the mess that evening. My, my skipper, my pilot, Group Captain Peter Johnson, with typical sort of British stiff upper lip, when I think one member of my crew said to him as we were getting out, ‘Well, that was a bit dicey,’ and he said [blustering received-pronunciation] ‘Oh, it was alright, you know,’ and, but in fact, subsequently back in the mess, he did tell me, tell me that he was pretty worried and that, had we not seen the runway on that particular moment, he was seriously considering turning out to sea and trying to land in the shallows of the sea, so I’m, I’m glad the smoke cleared enough for us to get by. Apart from that, there were very few moments of great excitement. One memorable moment, not really a moment of excitement is that, in the Pathfinder operations, the Lancasters, the Lancaster Pathfinders were equipped with RT and WT; the main force was equipped only with WT. The master bombers, who were in Mosquitoes, they had only RT, and they were people like Cheshire and Tate and Gibson and names such as that, and on this particular night, we – one of the Lancaster Pathfinders was doing the job as link aircraft (this was passing on WT the RT instructions received from the master bomber), and the Pathfinder Lancasters used to take it in turn to be the link aircraft, in effect flying ‘round and ‘round the target passing the messages from the master bomber. Not the most popular of tasks, needless to say, but on this particular night, we were, well, my skipper was, in effect, the, the second string, which was the man who was the link, was very often, or very often at any rate, the senior officer in the Lancasters who was on the raid was the deputy commander, just in case the master bomber had mechanical trouble and had to turn back or had been shot down en route, and we were the, the second string, if you like, and, and we had a message from the master bomber saying that the raid was successful, radio home and go home, and go home we did, only to find out later that the master bomber had not got home, and the master bomber was no less than Guy Gibson. So it’s not exactly a claim to fame, it’s the most inappropriate form of words, but I suppose it is true to say that I and the other six members of the crew were the last seven people to hear Guy Gibson speak. I’ve never really, I don’t think most people have ever really fully satisfied themselves as to what happened to him; various rumours, most of them silly, but I’m, I’ve always been told (I can’t prove this), I’ve always been told that it was a complete wreck, the aircraft was on fire and everything was burned, and that the only recognition was that a sock was found with a laundry mark on it and this was Gibson’s. Whether that’s true or not, I don’t know, but that was the story I’d always been told. So, that more or less finished my flying career. I, I went on a couple of daylight raids which I didn’t much enjoy; somehow, I didn’t think the Lancaster was, was fitted for formation flying as were the Americans. And I, I don’t, I don’t think they were terribly successful and they weren’t particularly enjoyable. At the, the days immediately on the end of the war, most of us were, to some extent, occupied in bringing back prisoners of war from airfields in Belgium and Holland, poor devils had been up to several years in prisoner of war camps and had been brought out to the coast and were being picked up. Two things remind me of that always: my good skipper, the group captain, who I may say was a first class man (he finished the war DSO, DFC, AFC and thoroughly deserved it all), we didn’t see each other after the war for almost forty years, and then by pure accident, I was, I’d been a member of the MCC for a great many years, and was one night at home looking through the annual accounts of the MCC, and there was a list of people who had been members of the MCC for fifty years and who were now called life members and no longer had a subscription to pay, and about the third in the list was Group Captain P.W. Johnson, DSO, DFC, AFC, and I said to my wife, ‘Well, there can only be one member like that!’ And at that time, my firm, I was of course by then a, a qualified chartered accountant and a partner in my firm, and we were then acting auditors of the MCC, so I said to my partner, who dealt with the MCC problems, would he let me know next time he went to Lords [?] for anything, would he go into the office and see if he could find the address of Group Captain Johnson, which he did, and a week or two later, I found out and got back in touch with Peter Johnson and we thereafter saw each other roughly every six or seven weeks. He was a good deal older, he was fourteen years older than me, and by then he was therefore he was eighty or eighty-ish, and we used to take him out. He was, he was on his own, he’d lost his wife, he was a rather lonely old man in many ways. My wife, I had met during the war, she was a WAF, a Scots girl, and we met, strangely, I think immediate, immediately after the war in Europe finished, because very quickly, the operational squadrons were being disbanded, people were being sent away and all sorts of things. Peter Johnson was sent almost immediately to join a party which was being put together by Bomber Harris to go to Germany and inspect at first hand the damage which Bomber Command had done, and so he left the squadron very quickly, and I didn’t then see anything of him for forty years. I greatly regret it, actually, the loss of that forty years ‘cause he was such a first-class chap, and we had many a happy meeting in the years between our meeting up again and when he, he died. He died in a way which suited him well, because he was then living in an old people’s home not very far from where we live, and so we, we were able to see him fairly frequently. He had always had a, an eye for the girls; it was well known in Coningsby that he had a girlfriend in Newark and another one in Boston, and his son had been married about five times, and I remember him telling me once that, after the fifth marriage, that if he, if he got rid of that wife, Peter Johnson was going to marry her himself ‘cause she was jolly nice, and she had actually come to visit him in the old people’s home. He was still driving, he’d taken her back to the station to catch the train back to where they were living, he parked his car outside the, the place where he was living, he had a long-ish walk into the front door, he collapsed halfway on that walk, and before anybody could really do anything about it, he was dead. So it was a suitable and fitting end, I don’t think he would have regretted it. But that ended, substantially ended, my air force career, because I still had a fairly high demob number and because I was fairly experienced with forty-four ops behind me with Pathfinder Force, I was allocated to a thing called Tiger Force, which some bright spark at the Air Ministry had decided that we should go to assist our brave allies, the Americans, in the Far East, and that we should try to operate the successful Pathfinder technique which had been operated in Europe. I mean, it was a crazy idea ‘cause it was quite impossible doing the thing; it one thing being on a, a pre-war, tarmacadamed airfield with permanent buildings and every sort of electronic communication then available. It was a little different being stuck in Okinawa or somewhere like that. However, that was, I was to be so-called wing navigation officer and was actually on leave when the Japanese war ended, and so I phoned the Air Ministry and said, ‘Well, you don’t really, seriously mean to go ahead with this, do you?’ And there was a bit of umming and ahing at the other end, but I did eventually – I was told that they would be in touch with me and a couple of days later, there was a telephone call to say that the thing was off but I was to report back to Coningsby, and I spent the rest of my time as station navigation officer at Coningsby, and I left the, the squadrons left Coningsby about a fortnight before I was demobbed, they’ve were moved to Hemswell in order that the runways at Coningsby could be lengthened for the V Bombers which were then coming on stream. I got in touch and said, ‘Look, I’ve been in Coningsby two and a half years, you’re surely not gonna send me away to Hemswell, I have another fortnight to go,’ so again, there was umming and ahing and said ‘No,’ but I had to stay at Coningsby the other fortnight, they didn’t let me go a fortnight early, but that ended my work, wartime career, if ‘career’ is the right word. Terrible, war’s a terrible thing, awful, awful times one remembers. One remembers times of great strain, times of danger, but equally times when, very often before leaving for a flight, the, the, the whole feeling oneself was flowing, there was a, there was a, a scare, I suppose a scare, a fright; on the other hand, there was a feeling of something quite exciting was going to happen. It was a strange feeling and it was very different when you came back, I think feelings there differed very much from person to person, and I think I’d – probably as good a note to end on, end on as any is that I think that it’s amply demonstrated why the men who did the sculpture in the Bomber Command memorial in Green Park, where he has the sculpture of a crew of Lancasters coming in after the end of an operation, and, whilst my eyesight, I’m afraid, these days is far from good, and I, I really was not able to recognise it, my wife always tells me that the expressions on the face of the seven people were quite remarkable and that the, the sculptor had really done a marvellous job. And it is a marvellous, marvellous memorial; I was lucky to be one of those still alive and able to attend its opening by the Queen, and those of us who were there and who had actually operated during the war were asked to line up at the end along the, effectively, the edge of the Green Park parallel with Piccadilly, and the Prince of Wales and his wife came along and shook hands with all of us individually, one by one. I think he missed his lunch in consequence, but I imagine he didn’t mind. I think that hopefully is, in brief, my story. I hope it may be of use and interest to somebody in the future.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command, I’d like to thank Squadron Leader Hatch, at his home in Croydon, for his recording on the date of the 30th July 2015. I thank you very much. Bye-bye.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Maurice Hatch
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-30
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Sound
Identifier
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AHatchM150730
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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00:38:07 audio recording
Description
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Maurice Hatch was training as a chartered accountant when volunteered for pilot but was instead enlisted as a navigator. After initial training at Torquay, Brighton and Eastbourne he went to South Africa for a year. Upon returning he crewed up at Harrogate followed to a post at RAF East Kirby (630 Squadron) flying Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancasters, mainly on operations to Berlin. Then he went on a five-week intensive Pathfinder navigation training at 8 Group headquarters, followed by a post with 97 Squadron at RAF Coningsby where he flew 44 operations. After the end of the war in Europe he was sent to the Far East with the Tiger Force as wing navigation officer, but the war ended before he started operational duties. Maurice returned at RAF Coningsby as station navigation officer until demobbed. He then became a qualified chartered accountant and a partner of his firm. Maurice talks about military ethos, prisoner of war, bailing out, operations, anti-aircraft fire, evasive manoeuvres, Guy Gibson, reunions, the Bomber Command memorial in Green Park, meeting the Queen and other dignitaries.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
South Africa
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Devon
England--Sussex
England--Torquay
England--Brighton
England--Harrogate
Germany
Germany--Berlin
England--Eastbourne (East Sussex)
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
630 Squadron
8 Group
97 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
crewing up
demobilisation
Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain (1926 - 2022)
FIDO
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Lancaster
Me 109
memorial
navigator
Pathfinders
prisoner of war
promotion
RAF Coningsby
Stirling
Tiger force
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/593/8862/PKempMWD1603.2.jpg
915316febaf8fa093e9e3d6664bf2e5a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/593/8862/AKempM160425.1.mp3
98c9f86b0b70f1dafa1862ce137aa0b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kemp, Maurice
Maurice William Denton Kemp
M W D Kemp
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Kemp, M
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Maurice Kemp (1925 - 2016, 2221885 Royal Air Force), a list of operations and photographs. He served as a mid upper gunner on Lancaster with 115 Squadron in 1945. He carried out 9 operations and then took part in operations Manna and Exodus.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by aurice Kemp and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GR: This is Gary Rushbrooke for the Bomber Command Association, I’m with Flight Sergeant Maurice Kemp at his home near Boston in Lincolnshire, 25th April 2016. And Maurice could you just tell me a little bit about yourself, when you were born, where you born?
MK: Yeah I was born at West Keal near West Keal Church up up the top of the road there.
GR: Oh so local.
MK: And I was there till I was about six months old, and then we moved down to a well not really a smallholding but we’d a few acres of land, kept poultry, had a couple of milk cows to make butter, and that’s where I lived until I was about thirteen.
GR: So was mum and dad, dad was a farmer?
MK: Well he was a farm labourer, a farm labourer really but he did have a few acres of land.
GR: Oh right.
MK: You know which he did part time little bit on the side like as well as he went to work during the day and did that at night.
GR: Yes.
MK: I think we’d about eleven acres of grass and two acres of what you would call arable.
GR: Yes. Brothers and sisters?
MK: I had, I had a half-brother, he was seven years older than me, he was illegitimate, my mother had him when she was in the First World War, she was in London in service during the First World War and he was born in 1918. And I stopped there moved to New Leake in 1938, we’ve generally I worked on the land a little bit, I worked on Coningsby Aerodrome for quite a long time in the building process.
GR: So you helped to build?
MK: I helped to build Coningsby Aerodrome.
GR: The aerodrome.
MK: And I was there until such time as it was virtually completed. By that time I was getting on to be seventeen years and I got a driving licence and I started lorry driving the day I was seventeen. I did that for.
GR: Was that working for a local company?
MK: Yeah for a small, well a chap who had three lorries.
GR: Yes.
MK: And I worked for him until such time as I went in the Air Force, and I was in the Air Force a bit less than four years I think.
GR: Did you, obviously you volunteered?
MK: Yeah, yeah, because I was volunteered and I was deferred until my age because going in as a gunner it was
GR: ‘Cos most chaps.
MK: You weren’t allowed to do.
GR: You’d be called up at eighteen?
MK: Eighteen.
GR: And you were allowed to volunteer at seventeen?
MK: Yeah. I was called up at eighteen and a half because you wasn’t allowed to fly on operate operations under nineteen.
GR: Right.
MK: And it was a six month course from starting in the Air Force to get in there and that’s what I did.
GR: Was that always the case then during the war or was it something that came in later on?
MK: I don’t know it was always the case but it was the case in mine. I went to a an Aircrew Reception Centre at at Edgbaston in Birmingham on a three day course, and I was then deferred you know. I I passed as a wireless operator gunner you know for that for that category and I finished up as a gunner. And er I was, I joined up on the 17th January 1944, and I was a year training I went to, I started off at in Lord’s Cricket Ground that’s where I joined up.
GR: Right.
MK: And I went from there to Bridgnorth in Shropshire and that was you know sort of what do you call it square bashing and messing about you know general things. And I moved from there to Walney Island that’s at at Barrow in Furness.
GR: Yes.
MK: And I did an air gunnery course there. From there I went to Silverstone, I went on Wellingtons at Silverstone and that’s where we was crewed up.
GR: That’s yeah, so that would have been five of you on the Wellington wouldn’t it?
MK: Yeah, yeah. There was, no six.
GR: Six was there?
MK: There was two gunners.
GR: Two gunners?
MK: Although there weren’t a mid-upper gunner, there was two gunners ‘cos we was we was getting prepared for Lancasters really, well we was and I was there at, for I don’t a few months, and we was moved out to a new satellite aerodrome just up the road from Silverstone.
GR: You know when you actually joined up was it to be an air gunner or did you have any aspirations of?
MK: Well, when I was I volunteered for aircrew.
GR: Yeah.
MK: That’s what you could do and it it comes down to education.
GR: Right.
MK: My education wasn’t pilot navigator class so I was drafted in to wireless operator/air gunner and I finished up being put in the air gunner category, and you know we did these, it was three days at this test in Birmingham and they after you been and done all the courses they channelled you into what they wanted you to be and I was to an air gunner. And then we was told we wouldn’t be called up until we were eighteen and a half which I was eighteen and a half on the 16th January, and I was called up on the 17th. And then progressed through there and by the time I got passed out it was early ’45 when I got on squadron.
GR: Right. Did you end up going to Heavy Conversion Unit?
MK: Oh yes.
GR: Yes. Was it Lancaster Finishing School?
MK: Well the first, the first Heavy Conversion Unit I went to was at Stradishall and it was on Stirlings, now that was a bloody education never you mind. And it was the middle of us gunners privilege to wind the undercarriage up and down there’d no hydraulic, it was, it was a marathon of job.
GR: Right, well that’s something I didn’t know, so you had to wind up.
MK: Yes I did. [turning pages of book].
GR: We are just looking at the log book.
MK: And that’s Silverstone, it was just after that.
GR: Yes.
MK: Twelve and a half hours I was on Stirlings, there we are that’s what I did on Stirlings, and then we was moved from there to North Luffenham on Lancasters.
GR: Yes, so that was 1653 Conversion Unit?
MK: Yes that was the conversion Heavy Conversion Unit and then I went to North Luffenham.
GR: Yes.
MK: And that’s where I converted onto Lancasters.
GR: And that was a better aircraft?
MK: Oh Christ, the Stirling was, it really it was I mean I was well eighteen, eighteen near enough nineteen, and it was it was bloody horses work winding that undercarriage, and if you look at that they were all circuits and landings.
GR: Yes.
MK: You did a circuit, wind the undercarriage up, round you went, flew, wound the bugger down and by the time you’d done a couple of hours of that you was knackered, absolutely knackered.
GR: And presumably that was when they were using Stirlings ‘cos it had been taken out of frontline operations in 1943.
MK: It was a stepping stone that’s all it was, and I mean when we got on the Lancs well of course that was automatic, because that was hard word.
GR: [laughs] So I’m looking at the log book and I would say most of well yeah January and a bit of February you were at Lancaster Finishing School?
MK: Yes, that’s 115 Squadron.
GR: Then off to Witchford
MK: Yeah.
GR: Which is 115 Squadron and I think the first flight you took there was on the 21st February ‘45. How did you feel, I mean obviously at the time you probably knew war was coming to a close obviously we’d invaded Europe and we’re pushing up into Germany so was it a case of you wanted to get on to operations before the war finished or was it the other way?
MK: Yes you were keen to get on operations but what I’ve got to say in all fairness the twelve ops I did I was in nowhere near the danger the blokes had been in earlier.
GR: Yeah, yeah.
MK: I mean I saw aircraft shot down, one of the photos which was I shall always remember seeing a Lancaster going down in flames and you could see the silhouette of the aircraft down in the flames you know that was at Potsdam.
GR: Was that daylight or?
MK: No no.
GR: Night time.
MK: No night time.
GR: Night time.
MK: Somewhere, here we are Potsdam, that one. That was a gentle reminder we was taking to the Nazis that the war was about over we were just it was a bit of a persuader that was the last one thousand bomber raid of the war.
GR: Right, that was on the 14th April 1945.
MK: We was led to believe that it was the last thousand bomber raid.
GR: Last thousand altogether yeah. I was just going to say were all your operations at night but?
MK: No, no.
GR: Heligoland was a daylight wasn’t it?
MK: The three red ones were at night, twice to Kiel and once to Potsdam I think it was, and the rest was daytime. I was in 3 Group and 3 Group specialised on daytime bombing mainly, 5 Group round in the Lincoln area they was the main night time.
GR: What was the first operation like obviously?
MK: Well, I can’t really remember like, I can remember going on and flying and sort of been bloody pleased when I got back home again. But, I was never, I never used me guns in action, I never had occasion to to use ‘em.
GR: Yeah, and I would think I mean obviously towards the end of the war the Luftwaffe whether it was a night time or day time were pretty thin.
MK: We was getting on top.
GR: Yes you were getting on top but the flak.
MK: Yeah.
GR: And certainly around looking at Kiel.
MK: Oh aye.
GR: They were still going strong.
MK: We we we got hit with flak you know, not enough to damage, but we did get flak damage.
GR: Yeah.
MK: Yeah.
GR: Yeah so not excited about being on operations and not afraid but probably something?
MK: Well you was, you was shall we put it like this you was all in it together, I mean I wouldn’t going to do a bombing raid on my own all the aircrew on the squadron were going want they, so you was just one of a band it’s like a gang going to a football match.
GR: Yeah.
MK: You know, you don’t look at the dangers you can’t look at the danger.
GR: No no no. So er more training although by into May ’45. So where was you when the war finished?
MK: Witchford.
GR: You was at Witchford. Was you on ops or?
MK: Oh aye. VE night we walked down into Ely it was about two and a half miles into Ely. We walked down and had a night out on the on the beer and stuff in in Ely, and you know that was I actually remember it was everybody we was, there was a pub we used to visit in Ely we got down there and it was full we couldn’t get in but it didn’t matter because the people was handing us beers through the window.
GR: Yeah. Obviously in uniform?
MK: Oh yeah, oh Christ aye.
GR: How did it feel you know you’d done nearly a year’s training?
MK: Yeah.
GR: And flown on operations for a month two month.
MK: Yeah that’s right. Yeah I mean I’ve got to say I was one of the lucky ones I wasn’t in when it was at its worst, but we was there and.
GR: Oh absolutely.
MK: If I’d been sent out to the Far East I could’ve still at been at it longer but you know ‘cos the war in the Far East carried on a bit longer.
GR: Was you approached to go on it was Tiger Force wasn’t it they got together to send out?
MK: Well, it was, it was you know, we was getting boss of ‘em like. I’ve a friend from New Leake he’s he was on Liberators on the Far East and he was still at it a little bit longer than me.
GR: So then I’m looking again at the beginning of May you took part in Operation Manna.
MK: Yeah.
GR: Which was supplying food.
MK: Food to The Hague.
GR: Yeah to the Dutch.
MK: Yeah.
GR: How did you feel about that it was a pleasure I presume?
MK: Well It was yeah. It was very interesting after the war we did such a lot of different things, we dropped supplies there, and then we we was flying troops home for leave from Italy and flying them back, I did that I can’t remember how many times seven or eight times, and we really enjoyed that. And then we did what they called Baedeker tours flying over the bomb damage of the of Germany and taking a few of.
GR: Taking a few of the ground crew round yeah yeah.
MK: So I went over the dams and things, and then we did a trip when the launch was of the Queen Queen Elizabeth, one of the big liners she was launched and we went out to fly to her and fly round her and back you know on an exercise that was good.
GR: ‘Cos there was a victory fly pass wasn’t there?
MK: Yeah I wasn’t on that.
GR: You wasn’t on that one yeah.
MK: [unclear] It was after that.
GR: So all the training went into a lot of logs. I know obviously Operation Manna there was four or five food drops.
MK: I did a lot of flying after the war it was till I was demobbed like you know then. There was a dodge [?] to Naples that was a trip, that was the trip when we lost the pilot’s luggage.
GR: Go on then tell us a little bit about that?
MK: Aye?
GR: Go on tell us a little bit about that?
MK: I’ve told you about it it’s that what was on the bottom there.
GR: Go on just repeat it again that was the pilot releasing the bomb bay doors by mistake.
MK: Yeah, we’d been airborne probably half an hour and he required the toilet, so he stood up from his pilot’s seat and as he was standing up his intercom cable caught the bomb door lever and opened the bomb doors, out went all the kit, and when we got to Naples I’d the privilege of telling the blokes that all the luggage is lost and that was a bit of a hairy few minutes.
GR: How many servicemen was there, how many servicemen did you get into the Lancaster?
MK: I would say about I would say about twelve or fifteen they just sat on the bomb bay top, on top of the bomb bay.
GR: ‘Cos it wasn’t the most –
MK: Oh no.
GR: It was a cramped aircraft?
MK: Well, no they’d.
GR: All right for a crew of seven?
MK: But they had they had room but they were just sat on the bomb bay they had no no comforts.
GR: Oh.
MK: Well it well it wasn’t you know.
GR: And when you were bringing the prisoners back?
MK: Yeah they was the same.
GR: The same thing they just sat.
MK: Yeah, yeah they just sat on the bomb bay. Whether you’ve been in a Lancaster?
GR: Yeah.
MK: You know where the rear gunner’s, there’s the bomb bay like here, and then there’s a big drop down in’t there.
GR: Yes.
MK: And they were sat from there to where the navigator and wireless operator sat, on on top there was a big flat area there, quite comfortable, room for well I would say you could have sat twenty on but I don’t think we brought quite as many as that, I can’t really be sure of the number.
GR: No no.
MK: No not to be honest I’ve an idea I would have said twelve or fourteen but I would stand corrected on that.
GR: So you lost all the servicemen’s kit?
MK: Yeah, we lost all their, all their personal kit yeah.
GR: When was you demobbed?
MK: Demobbed well I can’t remember.
GR: ’46?
MK: Yeah it was.
GR: Yeah.
MK: I can’t remember looking in here.
GR: Yeah. Was you given a chance to stay in or?
MK: Well there was, I I couldn’t get out quick enough, but by the time I’d come out I I realised I didn’t ought to have done. I’d have stopped in because there was an opportunity to re retrain and I would have liked to have stopped in and trained as a better tradesman gunnery for you know what I mean, but I didn’t do I come out. [unclear] ’44.
GR: It’s 1947 isn’t it, yeah 24th June 1947. I know some chaps who came out who were demobbed but then went back in again a couple of years later. What did you do after the war then?
MK: I was lorry driving.
GR: Lorry driving yeah.
MK: I was lorry driving for I don’t know about ten or eleven year and I finished up being transport manager for a company till I retired.
GR: Yeah. But you enjoyed your time in the RAF?
MK: Oh I did, oh I enjoyed it, I wouldn’t have missed it, no.
GR: Well that’s excellent, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Maurice Kemp
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Gary Rushbrooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-25
Type
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Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AKempM160425
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:20:25 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Barrow-in-Furness
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Northamptonshire
England--Rutland
England--Suffolk
Germany
Germany--Potsdam
Germany--Kiel
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-01
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Before joining the Royal Air Force in January 1944, Maurice helped to build Coningsby aerodrome. After attending an Aircrew Reception Centre at Edgbaston, he passed as a wireless operator gunner, finishing as a gunner. He joined up at Lord’s cricket ground, went to RAF Bridgnorth, followed by an air gunnery course at RAF Walney Island. Maurice crewed up at RAF Silverstone on Wellingtons where the crew had two gunners. He went to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Stradishall on Stirlings. RAF North Luffenham followed and a Lancaster Finishing School as part of 115 Squadron. Maurice finished at RAF Witchford.
Maurice carried out 12 operations but never used his guns in action. Most of the operations were in daylight although he flew night-time operations to Kiel and Potsdam. He then took part in Operation Manna and flew troops to and from Italy. Maurice also participated in tours for ground crew to witness the damage in Germany.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Sally Coulter
115 Squadron
1653 HCU
air gunner
aircrew
Cook’s tour
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Coningsby
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Silverstone
RAF Stradishall
RAF Walney Island
RAF Witchford
Stirling
training
Wellington
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efc647dc6becbc47519bf8e76f1d5de7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/993/10624/AKettleboroughML180905.2.mp3
a1f21b78fd5d4533acef476141e5645c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kettleborough, Mick
Michael Kettleborough
M L Kettleborough
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Michael 'Mick' Kettleborough (b. 1936). He grew up in Woodhall Spa.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-09-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Kettleborough, ML
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: That’s alright. Don’t worry. You’d be surprised. Some interviews have barking dogs and cats jumping on me and all sorts of things so don’t worry about that. What would be useful if that’s, if you’re all going to chip in at some point, you’re all quite welcome to, if you could all say your names. Is that ok?
AH: I won’t say anything.
[laughter]
MK: Yeah.
DK: Just, just for future references as to who was there. So, I’ll just start this. I’m David Kavanagh working for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing do you mind me calling you Mick?
MK: Correct.
DK: Yes. Ok.
MK: I’m known as Mick.
DK: Mick Kettleborough, at his home on the 5th of September 2018 and with me I have —
AH: Amanda Holland, which is Mick’s daughter.
VK: Valerie Kettleborough. That’s Mick’s wife.
LH: Lucy Holland, Mick’s granddaughter.
DK: And the dog?
LH: Is Merlin.
AH: Merlin.
DK: Merlin, the dog. Ok. Well, I’ll, I’ll put that there. If I keep looking over, I’m just making sure it’s still going.
MK: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. So, if we can start off then perhaps you could recap what you were saying. Where you were born and —
MK: I was, I wasn’t born in Willoughby House. My father, my stepdad bought Willoughby House when I was about three.
DK: Right.
MK: He had a, he had a little practice in Woodhall. Down, down Witham Road and he moved from Witham Road to Willoughby House when I was about three and then it’s all a bit hazy for a start. And then when I was about four years old, we, my mum had the choice. She could either take Army or Air Force which was the Air Force was like a Lancaster pilot. She could, and she chose to take the RAF boys.
AH: Because she had a spare room, hadn’t she?
DK: Right.
MK: Because we had a spare room you see. Now, the thing is I can vaguely, we had one or two come and I can vaguely remember they didn’t last long so you can imagine what happened to them poor devils. We had one I can remember called Len Swire. I can’t remember what he did but mum’s favourite was Jack Gibson.
DK: Right.
MK: He was a, he was Canadian.
DK: Right.
AH: And he’s on the Bomber Command Memorial.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
MK: Yes. He’s on the Memorial. He’s also, he’s buried at Coningsby.
DK: Do you know where he was based then? Which airfield he was based at?
MK: Pardon?
VK? He was based at Woodhall, wasn’t he?
MK: He was based at Coningsby.
VK? Yeah. Coningsby.
DK: Right. Ok.
MK: Yeah. Based at Coningsby.
DK: So, the airmen that stayed with your, your mother then they were mostly from Coningsby?
MK: They would be all Bomber Command.
DK: Yeah.
MK: All what they called Bomber Boys and Jack Gibson, he was, I think he was mum’s favourite. And as far as I can remember I was told afterwards that sometime in November, what was it? 1942 would it be? Jack Gibson was shot. He was killed when? Nineteen forty —
AH: Lucy can tell you that.
LH: I’m just trying to look —
MK: Yeah. Just, just let Lucy have a —
LH: Carry on. You carry on.
MK: And he was, he came and asked our mum, mum told me years after, he came and asked our mum if he could have an early Christmas.
DK: Right.
MK: And she said, ‘Why do you want an early Christmas?’ He said, ‘There’s something big coming off. We’ve not had a briefing yet but something big is coming off. I’m not allowed, I don’t know so I can’t say but I shall be confined. I shall be confined to the aerodrome for quite a period.’ And apparently, it all came out afterwards that they were knocking the hell out the Ruhr Valley.
DK: Right.
MK: And the bomber boys went to concentrate at that time on the Ruhr Valley and, when was Jack killed?
LH: The 18th of December ’41.
MK: 18th of December 1941.
LH: That’s what we got. [Coningsby was said?]
DK: Right.
MK: So, Mum said yeah, so will remember everything was rationed in them days. Everything was rationed strictly.
DK: Yeah.
MK: So anyway, mum rustled up what we, what she could get and he had his Christmas.
DK: Right.
MK: And then he went. He went, he went back to Coningsby or where ever he was and mum never saw him again.
DK: So —
MK: But —
DK: Sorry. Go on.
MK: The thing is this he gave mum some of his that what they called valuables. Perhaps a watch, ring.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Maybe he had, I don’t know a wallet and such thing anyways. And then he was, a telegram came as far as I can remember being told that, saying that Jack had been killed in action.
DK: Right.
MK: And the story is after, the story afterwards what my sister told me I think my sister was very sweet on, on Jack Gibson and apparently, he came back badly shot to bits. Apparently, his radio, the radio was still working, so the radio operator got in touch with Coningsby. Asked him to land on Woodhall landing ground.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because they didn’t want to blow up the main runways and he was coming back over the North Sea and he said to his crew, ‘As soon as you hit land,’ he said, ‘Jump. They said, ‘No way. We’ve done so many missions with you.’
DK: Yeah.
MK: ‘We’re sticking with you.’ And apparently, he put the plane down. It blew up.
DK: And was all the crew killed as far as you were aware?
MK: No. They was all killed. But I don’t know the names of the rest of the crew.
DK: No.
MK: I don’t know their names.
AH? That would be found outable.
DK: We should be able to find that. I’ll have a look in a minute because it should be on the IBCC’s database of the losses.
MK: Yeah.
DK: If we find his name it will actually list the rest of his crew.
MK: Yeah. Well, he, he, that’s the story I can remember. And then of course Jack, apparently the, well my sister told the story. Told it, that the MPs came to collect his things and they said to our mum, ‘Where are his valuables?’ Mum said, ‘I haven’t got any.’ He said, ‘You’re lying.’ She said, ‘I’m not lying.’ ‘He’s minus —’ this, that and the other, ‘And we want his diary.’
MK: Yeah.
MK: Mum said, ‘I’ve got nothing.’ And they said to my dad, ‘You realise we can search your house.’ Dad said, ‘No way.’ And that’s it. ‘You’re not searching the house.’ And they said, ‘Well, we can do.’ They said, ‘Well, you’d better come up with his valuables.’ They said, ‘We haven’t got any. We haven’t got any.’ And time progressed and mum wrote to his parents in Canada because you’ve got to remember everything was censored.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: That’s why she daren’t tell them.
DK2: Right.
MK: That she’d got some of his artifacts.
DK: No.
MK: She had got the diary and they were hidden somewhere away. She got it. She wrote to his parents in Canada. They wrote a lovely letter back saying fair enough and after, after things, after the war time mum did send them his things.
DK: Right.
MK: And they did write back and said thank you very much. And then there was no more contact made. No more contact made at all. But we used, Jack’s the one. Jack Gibson’s the one that stands out.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because being Canadian he used to take me up to his bedroom and he’d go, he’d got tins of salted nuts. Salted peanuts.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And he had, sometimes he had a bar of chocolate [laughs] because we didn’t. I didn’t know what chocolate was because it was rationed.
DK: Yeah.
MK: You didn’t get that sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And that’s, that’s the story of, he is buried in Coningsby cemetery. Down the bottom end.
DK: Right.
MK: And he’s on, he’s on the Memorial at Woodhall Spa.
DK: Right. Yeah.
MK: Not that he took part in the Dambusters raid but he was, it’s got the list of names, hasn’t it?
DK: Yes. Yeah.
MK: Not that, he wasn’t attached to that. That was a, we don’t, we never had anybody, Petwood Hotel was the officer’s mess as you know.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Do you want me to carry on?
DK: Yeah. I was going to ask. His personal possessions then. Were they then sent to his family in Canada? Or did your mother hang on to them.
MK: My mum, my, you see my mum knew she, my mum knew that because she wouldn’t tell them.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Or made out she didn’t know and they apparently said, well he had got no wallet on his body. He’d got no, no rings, no watches. Well, they just say that sort of thing.
DK: Yeah.
MK: But mum had. He left them with mum.
DK: Right.
MK: Mum daren’t post them in the wartime because she knew she was being watched.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
MK: And she knew she’d be censored.
DK: Yeah.
MK: She knew that all post in them, most of the post in them days you had to be very careful what you wrote.
DK: I’m sure. Yeah.
MK: You had to be very careful what you said over the telephone if you had a telephone and that sort of thing. But after the war, after the war mum did get in touch with his parents and they was, his, what he left with our mum was sent.
DK: It was sent to Canada.
MK: Yeah. It was sent.
DK: I’ll just pause there.
[recording paused]
DK: So, for the recording then I’ll just speak to this from the Losses Database it’s Jack Lloyd Gibson. He was twenty nine years old. He died on the 18th of December 1941 flying on board Avro Manchester L7490.
MK: Yeah. That’s the one.
DK: Coded OFU, from 97 Squadron and is now buried in Coningsby Cemetery and all the crew were killed including Wing Commander DF Balsdon. So, he’s on the Memorial there in [pause] Lincoln.
MK: Yeah.
DK: On panel number 39. And his service number is R60253, Royal Canadian Air Force. So, the reason for loss is damaged by flak during a daylight raid and on return the aircraft stalled and crashed trying to land.
VK: Sad. To have done all those miles and then come home to that.
DK: Yeah.
AH: To get killed on home soil.
DK: So, he actually came from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
MK: That’s right.
DK: Ok. Thanks for that.
MK: You see the thing is with Woodhall, around there we was, Lancasters was all over the place because they used to be doing air tests. You had Spitfires, Hurricanes doing all the bits and pieces.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And —
DK: So, you can personally remember all the aircraft then all flying about.
MK: Well, you got you didn’t take any notice of the Lancasters.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because they was, they was all the time doing air tests. They were doing low level flying across the fens and I mean bloody low. Pardon my language. They were doing low flying across the fens because, like practicing.
DK: Yeah.
MK: You didn’t take any notice of them. I mean, you might, you see my dad being, being a dentist he was allowed extra petrol because a lot of people in the outlying fens couldn’t get to him if they had raging toothache or —
DK: Yeah.
MK: So, he had to go to them. So, he was allowed extra petrol. And sometimes if I was lucky, he would take us with him. Take me with him and it was daunting to see a Lancaster coming about two or three hundred feet above the fens but you took no notice and you, because —
DK: You got —
MK: At night time —
DK: You got so used it.
MK: On a quiet night when they was all, I mean Coningsby is a fair way from Woodhall and I’m not exaggerating.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Especially on Woodhall landing ground on a still, on a still winter’s night you could hear them revving up to take off.
MK: Not one. Not two but perhaps thirty, forty of them and if the wind, the wind was a certain way they used to take off over Woodhall and I tell you what, they were scraping the house roofs because they were fully loaded. I mean two thousand gallons of aviation fuel on board.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Plus bomb load and so sometimes when we went out around about I mean the woods in Woodhall right down to Kirkby on Bain were absolutely, well they’re still finding things. It was absolutely full of ammunition. Crates and crates of bombs. Not detonated. Crates and crates of bombs all all with, all camouflaged netting on them.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Over them and they’re still finding bits and pieces down in some, down the wood near the cemetery. I can’t remember now the name of that wood. Down near the cemetery where my brother is. Where my brother is buried.
VK: I think it’s still cordoned off isn’t it? For some reason. I think.
MK: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. They keep finding various things.
MK: They’re finding stuff.
DK: They found some mustard gas.
VH: That’s right. That’s right.
MK: They’re still finding stuff down there.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Yeah. And a lot of the, a lot of the roadsides. Dad used to go and visit a family called Eldon’s in New York. Their daughter was in service with mum and as you went down there and back all the road sides were stacked. Crates and crates and crates. Bombs. One of the woods in Woodhall, back of Coronation Avenue. That was at one point that was absolutely full of petrol cans. Thousands. And they seemed to come and then they disappeared because we used to go and play. I used to go to play in the wood.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And all of a sudden, ‘Oi boy. Boy. Out. Go on. Off you go. Go and play somewhere else.’
DK: Right.
MK: So we, we used to run off. And then —
DK: So, looking back on it and obviously that time you’re looking at it from a child’s point of view. Was it, for a child an exciting time or could you really understand what, what the dangers were and what was really going on?
MK: No.
DK: Or was it just a lot of fun?
MK: You see the, no because it was [pause] it’s like when you’re young you, life’s a play.
AH: It’s like it’s your way. You’ve never known a different way of life really.
MK: No. You see it was —
AH: That you could remember before, could you?
MK: You see, we had, we had the Gordon Highlanders was based in Woodhall. Army. We had the Enniskillens. We had the, the Arnhem boys went from the Royal Hotel.
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
MK: Which got flattened. Which got bombed. We used to go and play in the rubble which we never, I mean we never should have done but we use to play.
DK: Is that the hotel where the Memorial is now? On the corner.
MK: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
MK: That was the Royal Hotel.
DK: Yeah. Right.
MK: The Victoria Hotel got burned down. The Royal Hotel took a direct hit.
DK: Right.
MK: To get to know more about that that what’s his name [unclear] . The chap who writes about Woodhall.
DK: Yeah. I know who you mean.
MK: Yeah. He’s got the story of all that, but anyway, we used to, the Royal Hotel, that took a direct hit. I don’t think there was a window left down the Broadway. All our windows got blew out. My bedroom ceiling come down. I screamed because I couldn’t get the bedroom door open. So, my mum and dad at that particular time was in London. Dad was on business in London so there was only me and my sister. She come and barged the door open and snatched me and we went downstairs. The next thing some of the Army boys were there. One was called Tom. A big fella. They brewed some tea up and went out to clear the glass up. And we couldn’t shut the doors because they’d, they’d blown open.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And the Army boys I can remember the Army boys coming in and Tom was there. They brewed tea and they helped us and my sister clean the glass up and then it all quietened down and she said, ‘We’d better go to bed.’ I kept saying, ‘Pat.’ ‘What?’ ‘There’s a bit of glass in the bed.’ So, we had to go around picking glass out of the bed. And then the next morning we found out that Dr Armour’s, are you interested in this or not?
DK: Yes. Yeah. Keep going. Keep going. I’m just making sure it’s —
MK: Dr Armour’s place was badly damaged. Sleight’s house next door. I can’t remember now. Sleight’s house next door was very badly damaged and I think Mr Sleight was killed.
DK: Right.
MK: And apparently his wife died a few months later of a broken heart.
DK: Oh dear.
MK: That’s and there was Goodyear’s, A Churches, the butchers over the road. A Churches. Well, the whole of Broadway. I don’t think there was a pane of glass left.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because they really shook Woodhall they did but that’s, there was no there was only, I think there was only one person was killed.
DK: Right.
MK: Which was lucky enough.
AH: And Auntie Pat, dad’s sister, she did tell me that after that particular night Lord Haw Haw went on the radio and apologised to his friends in Woodhall Spa.
MK: Yeah.
DK: Really?
MK: Lord Haw Haw didn’t.
DK: Yeah.
MK: He didn’t want any damage on Woodhall.
DK: Yeah.
MK: But he used to, he used to preach propaganda. I mean —
DK: Yeah.
MK: I can’t remember what was said but what, what I can remember was my dad he brought a sophisticated wireless for that particular time.
DK: Right.
MK: And on a nice night Churchill’s speech on a nice night he would turn it up loud, open the windows and all the soldiers used to sit on the lawn.
DK: Yeah.
MK: We had a lawn full of soldiers sitting and standing listening to Churchill’s - —
DK: Speeches. Yeah. Yeah.
MK: Speeches. And I can remember one particular night my dad come to fetch me up for some reason and he took me out, he took me down the stairs on the front lawn and there was wave after wave, after wave of enemy bombers and I heard my dad say to my mum, ‘By God, Lincoln’s copping it tonight.’ But it wasn’t. It was Coventry.
DK: Oh right.
MK: Wave after wave of bombers.
DK: Yeah.
MK: The ack ack guns were all, on the coast were all opening up. The ack ack guns on Coningsby and Woodhall. They were all, they were all barking away. You could hear them. Whether they hit anything I don’t know.
DK: Yeah.
MK: But that was, that was the night that Coventry copped it.
DK: Right. And you can well remember that then and vividly remember the aircraft going over.
MK: Oh, God. I can remember the aircraft. The aircraft. Yeah. And you see at night time it was dense blackout. I went [pause] My, I went to, I was, I think it was a chap, I can’t think of his name. Clive. His first name was Clive. He was my age and I think he had a birthday party and I think I was invited to the birthday party and that would be after school.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And my sister came to fetch me and I was terrified because Woodhall, you couldn’t see. I couldn’t see you. Blackout. It was, November. Pitch black. And I was frightened because you couldn’t see.
DK: Yeah.
MK: There was the odd Army lorry going by with the dipped lights. There was people about but you couldn’t see. You couldn’t see who they were. And thank God my sister knew where she was going because I wouldn’t have done. I just got disorientated because it was that, that pitch dark. That was the blackout.
DK: Yeah.
MK: You, you didn’t show. If you had the slightest chink of light in any, you got a bang on the door. The ARP. ‘Get that bloody light out. There’s a war on.’ And you did as you [laughs] You did.
DK: Did it. Yeah. Yeah.
MK: And that was the sort of thing that happened and we used to play. We used to have games. One of, one of the favourite games was when we saw a train coming, we used to run down to the station and then in those days there was a bridge over the Broadway.
DK: Right.
MK: So, we used to run up on the bridge and hang over the rail so when the train came by you got covered in smoke. So, you got all smuts. You’d got all the, well that was the highlight of the day that was. Things like that.
DK: Not like that now though, is it? Kids, kids don’t entertain themselves like that.
MK: Yeah. If you think I’m going off course.
DK: No. No.
MK: You just let me know. And —
DK: And if I could take you back a bit you said your parents obviously took in the RAF men as, as lodgers there. After Gibson died there, did they take in any more?
MK: I don’t think mum did. I think, I think mum put her foot, I think, I think, I think mum was very very fond of Jack Gibson.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because he was, what I can remember of him he was a lovely chap. He was because he gave me salted peanuts [laughs] And you see things like that, things stick in your mind. We lived in Willoughby House. Across the road was the Methodist Church. This end of the Methodist church was an Army cookhouse.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Was an Army cookhouse. And I went home for a meal one day and I said to mum, ‘I’m not hungry.’ And my mum said, ‘Why?’ ‘I’ve had my dinner.’ Where?’ ‘In the cookhouse.’ ‘You’ve had your dinner in the cookhouse.’ ‘Yes.’ ‘What did you eat it off?’ ‘They put an oilcloth down. A bit of rag down for me. Like a dishcloth.’ ‘You did?’ ‘Yeah.’ And anyway, that got stopped. I wasn’t allowed to do that anymore.
DK: You didn’t do that again.
MK: No. And when, when the cookhouse got a delivery of canned meat, tinned meat, sort, sort of corned beef, Spam and all that sort of thing coming in tins Tom used to come across with his apron on and he was holding his hand like that. ‘Here you are mam. Here’s a tin of bully beef. Here’s a tin of Spam. Keep it quiet. Don’t, not a word.’ And off he’d go and they’d bring us this and then the bread lorry used to come. A big lorry full of bread and they used to have a chain. A chain across inside. And in, in the actual cookhouse there was a massive coal range that they used to cook on and there was some field kitchens outside.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Where they used to put all the vegetables in and stir it around with a stick. And yeah, it was, it was good. It was good times and it was, it was good times actually. Well, it was. It was good times for us.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Because we didn’t know.
DK: [unclear]
MK: And you know, any different.
DK: When the war’s come to an end and I know rationing went on for a bit longer but do you think that period that you were growing up has in any way affected you? About how you feel about food and waste and that sort of thing. Do you —
MK: Well, you see you ate what you was given.
DK: Do you think about that now?
MK: You ate what you was given because of rationing. I had a gran, my grandad he was head forester and gamekeeper on the Hotchkins estate.
DK: Right.
MK: So we had plenty of rabbits. You had plenty of rabbits because meat was rationed.
DK: Yeah.
MK: If you got a bit of beef, if you got a bit of beef you were lucky. So therefore you only had, everything was rationed. Tightly rationed. So if you had, if grandad shot some rabbits we were lucky.
DK: Yeah.
MK: If someone killed a pig it was shared. In those days it was shared out. So we actually, I’ll put it this way you ate what was you was given and if you didn’t you went without. There was not like there was today. If you go in, ‘I don’t want that, mum. Can you cook this?’ No. It was was put on your plate.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: You either ate it or you went without so you actually ate it.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Whatever it was and you and it was like you had a lot of greens. Everybody grew greens. Eggs were very very scarce. But people had the black market. People had chickens and the black, and you used to say perhaps, ‘I’ll give you half a dozen eggs for a bit of corn for the chickens.’ And all that sort of thing went on. But no, you didn’t actually. No. It didn’t. The war didn’t actually worry me. You got, you got used to seeing the Army about and the big Army lorries and I tell you we had the Gordon Highlanders. That was the highlight because on a, some Sundays they had a full parade with full pipe band. Am I boring you?
DK: No. No. I’m just making sure it’s still going. Keep going. Don’t worry.
MK: We had. We had that. They used to come down Woodhall with a full pipe band.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Drums and band. And that used to be the church parade.
DK: Right.
MK: Well, I used to run like hell to the end of Iddesleigh Road to watch them coming. You’d stand and wave to them you see. Not that they acknowledged you because they couldn’t. And that used to be church parade. And I can’t think who was billeted in the Golf Hotel. I can’t remember who it was. Anyway, I got to know one or two. I got the Golf Hotel car park as it is now.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Was the parade ground and I used to get woke in the morning because the blasted bugler used to stand right at the end of our garden blowing Reveille. So, some days I used to get up some times and draw the blackout back and peep out in the daylight and you’d see them out there doing their PT. As time progressed, they’d be on there doing rifle, rifle drill and all that sort of thing. I got to know one or two of them and I got, I used to sneak in to the Golf Hotel up in to the bedrooms and the soldiers took no notice of me. They used to show me how to clean a 303 rifle.
DK: Yeah.
MK: I didn’t get, and they used to show me how to polish the buttons. Put those things on a button.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: Polish all the brass buttons and blanco the belts and spats. You know the —
DK: Yeah.
MK: Spats. And how they used to bull the boots up. They used to go, I learned that at a very early age. I used to say to mum I’ve been to watch them bulling their boots and spit and pad. I used to go up and they’d be sitting out. The only thing was if somebody important was coming, an officer or a sergeant, ‘Scarper boy, quick.’
DK: Yeah.
MK: ‘Go and hide.’ So, I used to go and hide and when they’d gone I’d go back again [laughs]
DK: So —
MK: I’d go back again.
DK: So, when the war has ended did it seem a bit strange that all this life ended without all the soldiers there and the bases closing and —
MK: Well, it was surprising how quick Woodhall changed.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Back of St Hugh’s School, to the side of St Hugh’s School there was loads of, loads of Nissen huts with slab paths for the Army boys, and there was a lot more stationed up Horncastle Road.
DK: Right.
MK: That’s where the prisoner of war camp was. Up Horncastle Road on Tor o moor, on Roughton Moor. That was where it was. No. It was, you sort of, it’s funny really. No. It never made any impression on us but you were sorry too. I mean you’d been used to seeing a mass of khaki.
DK: Yeah.
MK: I mean if you were lucky enough if there was [unclear] film on at the Kinema in the Woods because that kept going.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
MK: Mam said, ‘Would you like to go?’ ‘Yes, please.’ So, and you sat in deck chairs and there used to be all the Army boys in there. I mean, you could hardly see the screen through fag smoke and some of them were sleeping and some of them were smoking. It was, yeah it was good fun.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Good fun. It was. No, it didn’t have any, no it was, it was surprisingly quick how things seemed to get back to normal.
DK: Yeah. Although it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t be a normality that you would have been used to.
MK: No, because rationing was still on after the war, yeah. I think it was 1950 before proper rationing was stopped.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And we used to have to make our own entertainment. I mean I had a whip and top and I got a hoop from somewhere. A bit of a stick and a hoop so you played with that. You’d spend hours playing with that because there was no traffic about. Used to go up the Broadwalk. Up and down the Broadway. You wouldn’t today. With a hoop and your whip and top.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And then living down Iddesleigh Road there, there was some railway gates. I was out there one day and this woman was struggling to get through the hand gates with a wheelchair so of course I went and helped. ‘Oh, you are kind.’ She gave me a penny. I thought, Christ I’ve got a penny. So, I went and told my mum, ‘I’ve just been given a penny.’ ‘How?’ ‘A lady gave me a penny.’ So, I thought, right, I’d wait for the old dears to come down from the Spa baths and I used to open the gate for them. Sometimes I got a penny. Sometimes I got tuppence so, and I used to scoot around to Waterhouse’s bakehouse and get two ha’penny buns and they were like that. Two ha’penny buns. And things like that all stick in your mind. I mean Johnny Wield. He lived in that, he lived in what is now the Woodhall Museum.
DK: Right.
MK: And he used to loan out bath chairs for the people at the Spa baths and things like that. He was also a watch repairer so I used to, and I used to go around to see him and if I was good, he would let me stand and watch him repair a watch. And then you’d go outside and he’d be greasing, and you’d go outside and he’d be greasing the wheels on the wheelchairs in places like. A very, very nice chap, Johnnie Wield. A very well read, very clever man and things like that stick in, stick in your mind.
DK: What do you feel now? Presumably you’ve been back to Woodhall Spa since. What do you feel when you go back there now?
MK: Nostalgia. Woodhall always had a pull on me.
DK: Right.
MK: I live in Barnet. I married a Barnet girl. This is my home.
DK: Right.
MK: But when I used to go back to see my brother and relations at Woodhall I wanted to go. I wasn’t made to go. I wanted. I still want to go.
DK: Does it —
MK: Amanda still, my daughter very took up with Woodhall.
DK: Yeah.
AH: We like going to Woodhall.
DK: Yeah. Does it feel like home?
MK: And Amanda —
DK: Does it feel like home then?
MK: No. Because it’s not like home there.
DK: No. No.
MK: It’s not like home anymore because there’s nobody I know.
DK: Right. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
MK: I mean all my uncles, I mean my mum was one of, my mum was one of one, two, three, four, five. My mum was one of eight. There was four, five, six. I think there was four boys. Or was it five boys and three girls? There may have been five boys. Anyway, there was eight. So, they’ve all passed away. Moving away from Woodhall I mean I was out with my brother one day. We were going to the [unclear] for a drink and this posh car stopped and my brother went across and was talking to him. So when, when my brother come back, I said, ‘Who the hell was that?’ He said, ‘That’s your cousin.’ Cousin so and so. You see, you don’t know.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: Because you’ve moved on.
DK: So, you moved to Barnet then.
MK: No. I moved to Stamford.
DK: Stamford. Right. Ok.
MK: Dad sold up. Dad sold up in Woodhall.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And he bought a place in Bourne.
DK: Right.
MK: He didn’t like it. So apparently this little shop down the High Street became vacant in Stamford. He went and bought it. My mum, she wanted a wool and baby linen shop.
DK: Yeah.
MK: So he bought this. It was called Rs and Lee, and they did babywear, knitting, all that sort of thing. So my dad bought that for mum.
DK: Right.
MK: And it kept him occupied. It kept mum occupied. My sister, she used to work for [unclear] the chemist in Woodhall.
DK: And what, what career did you go into then? What were you doing?
MK: And I left, when I was, what? I was eleven and a half when I came to Stamford so I did my last four and a half years at Stamford School.
DK: Right.
MK: And then I never [pause] I hated school. On my report it was lack of attention. You know, if somebody were playing football outside I used to sit and watch it.
DK: I think I’ve got something similar.
MK: Never mind. As we and so I finished and I went into I always wanted to go in to poultry.
DK: Right.
MK: I fancied poultry. So, when I left school, I went into, I worked on a big poultry farm and then the boss, I was there seven years. Thoroughly enjoyed it, and the boss decided to sell up. He wanted, he wanted to retire. Then I went on different farms.
DK: Right.
MK: And then I got eventually went in to the, got in to the building trade.
DK: Oh right. Ok.
MK: And I spent the rest of my life in the building trade but no its, I’ll tell you there’s a lot of things that if you really sit and think about it in Woodhall you could, certain things come to your mind.
DK: I was going to say we’ll probably wrap up there. I think we’ve got most of that period. I’ll ask finally how do you look back on your childhood now in Woodhall Spa, and all that you saw and the experience of the change of wartime?
MK: I enjoyed it. I knew there was a war on. I know things were tight but I had a carefree youth because there was no, no pressure like today. I mean you made your own entertainment.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Dark nights you only had one fire to sit around. There was no central heating. You had. You had a, you sat around a coal fire.
DK: Yeah.
MK: Or whatever you got hold of to burn and you played games. You played Snakes and Ladders. You played, you played Lexicon and you played Draughts. Your parents played with you.
DK: Yeah. Yeah.
MK: It was a family concern and then some nights I mean good God I mean right up to being ooh nine, ten you was in bed by 7 o’clock and your bedroom was pitch dark because it was all black out. You couldn’t, you couldn’t see what was going on outside. I mean, you see in those days, in the 1940s you had double summer time.
DK: Yes. Yeah.
MK: The men were still working in the fields at 11 o’clock at night.
DK: Yeah.
MK: And that, as I say you went to bed early. You played games and if it was, if it was summertime you were allowed to play out on the lawn a little while. You weren’t allowed outside the gate. I was allowed to play on the lawn a little while and then you went in. You was washed, night clothes on and bed. That was you settled for the night. You woke up occasionally. You heard the planes. You heard Lancasters taking, you heard Lancasters going over and that sort of thing. We used to take no notice.
DK: Yeah.
MK: It was part and parcel of life. I mean as I said you’d be playing outside and you’d see Lancasters doing an air test but you never, you never looked. Now, Christ if you see one it’s an event.
DK: Yeah.
MK: You’d go miles to see a Lancaster now.
DK: Yes. That’s true. Ok then. I think we’ll pause and stop it there. That’s marvellous. Thanks very much for that. I’ll stop the recorder now but thanks. Thank very much.
[pause]
MK: I mean, I could tell you little bits and pieces.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Mick Kettleborough
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-09-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AKettleboroughML180905, PKettleboroughML1801
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Pending review
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00:38:24 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
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Michael Kettleborough lived in Woodhall Spa during the war. His mother billeted RAF crew members in her home. One of them Jack Gibson asked for an early Christmas as there were some big operations coming up. Shortly before Christmas 1941 the Manchester in which he was flying was hit by flak and crash landed at RAF Woodhall Spa and he and his crew killed. Jack left personal items and valuables with Michael’s parents who duly returned them to Jack’s parents in Canada after the war. One night in August 1943 an enemy landmine was dropped on the town damaging properties, destroying the Royal Hotel and causing casualties.
Temporal Coverage
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1941-12-18
1942
1943-08
Contributor
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Julie Williams
97 Squadron
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
home front
killed in action
Lancaster
military living conditions
RAF Coningsby
RAF Woodhall Spa
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/228/3373/AChattertonM160331.1.mp3
27703bd93c161251ba90d18d3a7a735b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Chatterton, John
John Chatterton
J Chatterton
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant John Chatterton Distinguished Flying Cross (1031972, 159568 Royal Air Force). Included are his logbooks, a letter of condolence and letter to be passed to parents of a deceased crew member, mounted copy of entries to the logbook of Pilot Officer A Baker, 44 Squadron Operations Order book, and an oral history interview with Mike Chatterton (b. 1953) about his father, John Chatterton, and piloting the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight's Lancaster. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by M J Chatterton and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.<br /><br />
<p>This collection also contains items concerning Peter Lees. Additional information on Peter Lees is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/113761/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.</p>
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-14
2016-03-31
Identifier
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Chatterton, J
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: Carry on with my RAF career a bit at a time?
DE: Ah yes.
MC: Alright.
DE: OK. So, I’ll just check it’s recording, yes. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Project, my name is Dan Ellin, I’m interviewing Mike Chatterton, it is the 31st March 2016 and we’re at Riseholme, also present in the room is Shelley the dog. So, Mike could you start please by telling me a little bit about your early life and how you grew up?
MC: Yeah OK. Well I grew up in a farming environment always and farming was always destined to be my future career I guess but I was always aware that father had been a Bomber Command pilot in the war and that was always a side-line of interest. I think I used to consider farming to be quite hard work and long hours and dirty and grubby and it didn’t seem to appeal to me that much so I used to not be devoted to that line of thought. Anyway, I suppose Airfix models are the main thing that started me off in aviation. Initially watching Father make them for me, and then after a little while getting involved and adding a few bits on myself and of course the good old Airfix models of fifty years ago was where they gave you all the precise names of the various bits so you learnt an awful lot about the aircraft at the same time as opposed to nowadays where it’s just lots of diagrams and arrows. But I think that was where my interest in aviation sort of came to fruition in all the models I used to make, and there were a lot of them, all over the house, and also I recall as I say initially getting Father to make them and he’d slowly let me do some of the easy bits and after a while he’d supervise me whilst I did the slightly more awkward bits, and after a while I slowly got to realise that actually I could do it better than Father could. I then got impatient with him trying to do it and just wanted to do it myself. That’s another, I suppose, idea of growing up, but didn’t actually hear a great deal about Father’s war time environment. I think for me, and I tell people that the highlight of the year for me wasn’t necessarily Christmas or my birthday, but the highlight for me was the Finningley airshow, and if you’d like to say religiously, I suppose you could say that, and as long as the, it wasn’t coinciding or contradicting with the harvest time, which was even more important to father, the Finningley airshow was one of the main events of our annual calendar. Along with my uncle, Uncle Will, Father’s brother, we’d go along in some battered old pick-up or something, join the queues, get to the air show and then follow the routine of going round the ground statics before the actual flying displays started, and then we were stuck in one place and watching the aircraft fly past, and of course in those days it was some wonderful old vintage aeroplanes, Shackleton’s and Varsity’s and some of the early jets and things like that. But for us the highlight was always the Lancaster, if there was a Lancaster airworthy at the time, if it was going to take part then that would be the main event. And of course, I’d then start asking Father a few memories about what he recalled, and used to get some of the fun, get none of the personal details at all, just some of the technical details, some of the fun activities he got up to I suppose, but none of the personal details at all. And so that was life as a kid, I think he then encouraged me to join the Air Training Corps which was a thing I’d never actually thought of much before. I used to love the airshows and I used to get very jealous of all the RAF people wandering around in their uniforms thinking I wish I could do that, but never actually thought about the idea of joining the air force, I thought there’s no way I’m ever going to get in the air force, and the way my academics were going I was sort of working towards being a draughtsman or something like that. I used to have a sort of natural tendency towards the drawing side of it but not the academics. And so I think a friend of mine said ‘How about joining the Air Training Corps?’ when we were about, quite late on about fifteen years old, and I said ‘Yeah, OK’ and we went along to the local squadron and joined, quite late on, because of, we were a bit older than normal joining age then things like gliding courses became available because you have to be a certain age for this. I think I went away on a gliding course and got my wings at Hemswell flying gliders. Where I then heard some more stories from Father about when he’d flown aircraft, Lancaster’s, at Hemswell and then whilst I was in the Air Cadets say things went on, because I’d got gliding wings I made a corporal, because I was made a corporal I got to be an instructor and because I was an instructor I got to be put forward for a flying scholarship etc., etc. It just sort of went on and on, and in the background there with Father always working away at the farm, helping with Father, I was aware that he was a member of various squadron associations because he was with 44 Squadron Association, so I used to be aware that every so often he’d go off and do that, but work I think, farming for him took all his time up and there was very little to do with aviation really apart from, as I say, the annual air show and occasional Airfix model, and I suppose then the Air Cadets were the turning point for me because obviously the idea is to get you air minded and the staff were very good and they used to encourage me to think about an idea of an RAF career which I say I’d never considered before, they were good for my confidence by the fact that I managed to achieve various different stages through the Cadets, I suppose that helped my confidence as well and so they persuaded me to actually give it a try and try and join the RAF as a pilot, which was a bit of a shock, but I went along I think in my sixth form and applied, went down to the selection centre at Biggin Hill and went through all the various processes which were pretty scary because you were having to sort of take part in discussions and then lead physical activities and then have little problem solving things and got called into the interview room at the end and they said ‘Not quite up to the standard we need but we like your enthusiasm so think about applying again in a couple of years time’. So that took me through school, and the air force had always said we prefer people with degrees, this is back in the ‘70’s, so I thought right I’ll get a degree and then I’ll apply again.
DE: Um.
MC: Well I’ll start a degree, and with Father’s background and my life on farming we decided to go for agriculture engineering and because of Father’s background as farming and also in the academics, because we’ll talk about Father later I guess, but he’d gone from the war back up to university and then gone straight, having finished his university course, to be a lecturer so he was involved in all the academics of that. So, he still knew a few people in the academics world of agriculture and so that helped I think to get me into the university course. Got some, scraped some A levels, I remember hearing that my A level results had come through whilst I was actually loading bales on a trailer, so combining the two together, the farming and the future air force. So, got to university and then applied, fairly quickly, because the university had university air squadrons and that was one of the requirements about where I was applying to go to, that they had a university air squadron which taught you to fly, although with no commitment at the time, and moved on. I think applied as soon as I could, got in there, so got a start being taught to fly the Chipmunk aircraft which again brought a few stories back from Father because it was one of the last aircraft he had flown after the war, and I suppose I didn’t get to hear much more from father about his flying time at that stage, it wasn’t really I suppose until quite a few years later on where having gone through my training, I got onto multi-engine aircraft and eventually got onto the Lancaster, and what I say to people is that I didn’t hear so many stories from Father about his activities but I heard having met a lot of the old veterans, a lot of the guys who knew Father, who would tell me some of the stories of what Father got up to, which he would never actually necessarily mention himself because they probably bent the rules rather a lot, and because of this, because of the contacts I made then I managed to find out and do some more digging. We’d always been encouraging Father to write his biography because we used to have all the little snippets but no sort of general put together information and so whilst I was at flying with the BBMF, flying the Lancaster and meeting so many people that knew Father from those days, I think Father was turning not towards retirement because you never actually retire as a farmer but he was in a mode where he was trying to do a little bit less and so he got more involved with the squadron associations, I think he became the secretary of 44 Sqn Association, so he was involved a lot more, spent a lot more time with that so again I got to hear more about what he was doing and what he had done in the war until, I say I was on BBMF, and then for us father and son idea I suppose the first time we actually flew together was in a Lancaster, so for me that was very, very special, taking him flying, I was only a co-pilot at the time so I didn’t have much say in what was going on but we got him on board anyway and flew around for a little while with him down behind me in the sort of wireless ops/navigator seat and then as my time on BBMF progressed I got to be captain then with the extra responsibility you get a bit of extra pulling power as well so not long after I got made captain of the Lancaster I managed to get Father back in the aircraft again and this time managed to get him in the right hand seat and me in the left hand seat so the Chatterton crew were airborne again. And what was very nice about that is, not only did I manage to get Father airborne but managed to get also three of his war time crew with us as well in the Lanc at the same time. That was the bomb aimer, the rear gunner and the flight engineer, so we all flew in the Lanc together. And I think Father used to really enjoy the fact that I was flying the Lanc, he spent far more time involved with the associations as I say and following what I was doing and every time I came back at the weekend I had to give him a full report of all the flights I’d had that week, at that time and he used to absorb it all and whenever I was flying around Lincolnshire, which was obviously quite a lot of the time as we were based at Coningsby, but if ever I was in the right direction I would always come back via Father’s farm and give him a bit of a flypast, so as I say he wasn’t used to seeing me much above four hundred feet or so doing that sort of thing. I think that sort of covers basically the connection between me and Father.
DE: Um. How does it make you feel flying with your Father and members of his crew?
MC: Um, when I was flying as captain you, lot of people ask me what it was like, what you’re thinking about when you’re flying the Lanc and I think my rather bland answer is that when you’re flying an aircraft like that you’re concentrating, or any aircraft to be honest, you’re concentrating on getting that job done, you’ve always got a job to be at a certain place, at a certain time with your mind set up to go and do a display or whatever so often at the actual time you’re not thinking too much about the importance of it, it’s only afterwards when you’ve landed and it’s all been successful, you can then allow your mind to wander back over what you’ve just achieved, on those occasions with Father, when I was flying with Father, it was just fantastic, absolutely marvellous, very, very, proud to watch them all. I know when, the first time I took them flying I was slightly wary of the rear gunner because he’d been the old man on the crew when the guys flew together, so I knew he was not very able but he, when we met them at BBMF, he had his, the rear gunner had his, I think grandson and grand-daughter with him, he walked with sticks and looking, you know, not very capable of clambering in the Lanc and so I was a bit concerned about how on earth am I going to say that having got this far it was going to be too dangerous to take him on board because he was going to be a sort of liability to himself and the rest of the crew? And I was thinking about this and they went out to have a look at the aeroplane first and he hobbled over towards the rear steps. He then dismissed his grandchildren, dismissed his sticks and ran up the stairs and in the turret before we knew it. So, there were no complaints, no problems there my fears had gone away then. Somehow, and it often happened with the veterans when we took them on board, I suppose that was one of the highlights of their lives, and so the youth just returned, and as I say even though they approached the aeroplane on sticks and walking frames somehow that just got thrown aside and they remembered lives when they were in their late teens and things like that. And whether the body itself may not have been willing but the spirit certainly was and we often used to see that, and the same as at East Kirkby it was getting the old boys on board and it was fantastic how they were so nimble again. The other thing, digressing there again, is when you got groups of these old boys together, in their eighties as they were, some nineties, is how they used to speak to each other. And again, they’d go back all those years, the sense of humour would be quite sharp, quite cutting but always well natured and you could see what a band of brothers they were I suppose.
DE: Did they include you in that as a pilot of the Lancaster or?
MC: I think we were embarrassed as the crew because if we used to go to these gatherings where they came to the aircraft at Coningsby or whether we landed the aircraft and had the old boys come round us we used to be embarrassed by the sort of celebrity status we had you know, and they were all asking for our autographs and asking what it was like to fly the Lanc, because there were quite a few of them in those days and it just seemed all wrong to me, really embarrassing you know that they were treating us like heroes and celebrities and yet they were the ones who obviously flew these aircraft for real as I say. Nowadays I think the veterans are treated with more due respect and things like that but twenty years ago when I was flying there was quite a lot of them around and they weren’t necessarily treated in the same way. But as I say that was what I used to recall is the embarrassment of them treating us like celebrities, but it was great meeting them as I say they used to fly these aircraft for real.
DE: Um, I think we’ll come back to that in a bit, could you tell me a little bit more about your career in the RAF?
MC: OK yeah. So, RAF wise, didn’t get in the first attempt at school, got in the second attempt with at university, so in my one of three years my university course was agricultural engineering, as I say it came from the RAF background, came from the farming background, the RAF just wanted a degree, they didn’t care what subject you had they just wanted a degree. So, we thought with my life at that point then agricultural engineering would be the best chance of getting through so we did. So, university where we got to learn the Chipmunk, and we flew that and I think I must have got about seventy hours or so, it was sort of every weekend, occasionally during the week, but mostly weekends so my university life was either working academics during the week and unlike a lot of people who sort of let their hair down at weekends, because I had hair in those days, we used to just go off to the RAF camp and fly. They’d have the RAF social life but generally not sort of the mad student social life. So, from university then the destiny was to go to Cranwell where we were trained to be officers, I think about sixteen week officer training, initial officer training course, usual sort of running around, carrying pine poles, leadership exercises and air warfare studies and general service background stuff, oh a lot of marching of course. I think my uniform fitted me better than average so I was made parade commander for Cranwell so again huge, huge pride in being the parade commander in front of the RAF College at Cranwell but as I say at the same time very, very busy concentrating on what you were doing and then again when it all finished and hopefully went successfully, huge sigh of relief and just realised what you’d just done, what you’d just achieved, anyway. Having finished officer training then went off to do pilot training, going to back step a little bit now because I finished university at the end of the academic year, sort of July time and then my entry at Cranwell wasn’t until, I think, quite late in the following year. So, I had about nine months, I had nine months holding before I started at Cranwell and that nine months was great fun because I just went and held on various different RAF stations. I went out to RAF Germany for a while and held at Gutersloh and were flying, associated with the Pembroke squadron there. The Pembroke’s used to fly all over Germany a sort of communications aircraft and then at the back of the hangar was a Pembroke with curtains over the windows, never used to move, I never used to see it move, anyway occasionally it wasn’t there, and then it was there, we never used to see it going in and out and that was the one that used to go off to Berlin and recce the corridors and things like that, but whenever I used to ask about it people just denied it was there so I found it very strange, rather than telling me what the truth they just denied its existence altogether. Anyway, that was one posting and that was very interesting going to Berlin for the first time and being given a guided tour of all the various parts of Berlin that had been affected by the Cold War and my Father’s war, imaging Father up there in the air above. Another holding post I think was at Farnborough where I was used as a guinea pig basically. So, Farnborough is the Institute of Aviation Medicine and so some days we’d be boiled in hot water and see what reaction we had, sometimes we’d be frozen, sometimes we’d be squashed, sometimes we’d be stretched. Spatially our average human bodies were trying out different, to see what the reactions were as far as various protective clothing and escape equipment and things like that were, so that was painful but interesting. Yes, so go back now, went and joined Cranwell, did pilot training that was on the Jet Provost and I found most of the way through training it was quite hard work for me. I never, ever sort of aced anything, I was always very middle of the road on all the things but we were quite aware that each flight it was quite high pressured because if you sort of failed one particular exercise then you’d be given another chance but after that they’d be looking at you quite closely so there was always quite a lot of pressure I remember about that and I always used to have in the back of my mind what would I do if I didn’t get through pilot training? And along the way we’d lose colleagues through getting washed out so you were always very much aware that the fact that it was possible that you wouldn’t be fulfilling your career or aim of flying. But I got through Cranwell alright and then we were going to go to the next stage which was the work up for what is called group one, phase one, which is basically you were working up to go onto the world of fast jets because at that stage of the air force, of the RAF, and this is talking mid-seventies there were no more people going to the multi-engine world they didn’t require any pilots, it was all cut backs and so there wasn’t any requirement for multi-engine pilots anymore and so the only option was either fast jet which I didn’t have much faith in me surviving the course or helicopters. So I opted to go helicopters, so I went up towards helicopters, and initially it was on very old helicopters like Whirlwinds which were quite nice and straightforward to fly and then progressed onto things like the Puma which was quite a difficult aeroplane to fly, very unstable, I never got on particularly well with that and after a while progressed through to the conversion unit but never feeling particularly comfortable with it and eventually had a mutual agreement that I wasn’t going to progress any further on the helicopter world and fortunately, for me, the multi-engine world had started up again at that point so there were positions available. So I remember going for an interview with the station commander at Odiham where I had been doing my helicopter training and saying that I’d like to go on to be a multi-engine pilot and he said ‘Well what are you going to do if you don’t get to be a multi-engine pilot?’ and I said ‘I’ll try to be an airline pilot then, I’m going to fly’ he said ‘Well I’ll cautiously recommend you for multi-engine on the grounds that I don’t think much of your loyalty, because you’d rather go and join the airlines rather than stay in the air force as an engineer or something.’ So, I thought, weird, anyway, for me that was perfect because that was what I’d always wanted to do multi-engine. So, I went and did multi-engine training on the Jet Stream it was in those days at Leeming and this was quite fun now because it was an aeroplane where you were doing , wasn’t doing wacky aerobatic stuff, you were doing procedural flying which was flying on instruments, going places so you were working out how to get from A to B and stuff which seemed far more applicable to my sort of way of life and abilities. And so it came towards the end of the Jet Stream course and they said ‘Right you can put down what you want to go onto next’ and in those days the options were Vulcans, Victors, Hercules, VC10’s, flight check Andover’s and Shackleton’s, and nobody wanted to go Shackleton’s because you were going back in time about two decades but I knew of course, dear old Dad and his Lancaster, my best chance of getting anything like a Lancaster was to go and fly a Shackleton which is the grand-daughter of the Lancaster.
DE: Sure.
MC: So I thought well I’ll go and volunteer for that ‘cause it would give me a chance to know what Father’s flying was like. So, I volunteered for Shackleton, they said ‘Are you sure?’ Not many people did that so I got my choice and went to Lossiemouth to convert to the Shackleton which was, it was quite a step back in time, because the Jet Stream I had been flying was the most newest aircraft in the Royal Air Force inventory, and the Shackleton was the longest, oldest one I think. It was a step back in time as far as the technology of the aeroplane and the procedures and things but an interesting job. We used to have an airborne early warning radar under the nose of the Shackleton so we’d go off north and try and chase, well not chase, but go and spot the Russian aircraft coming down from the north, most of the Russian aircraft went a lot faster than we did so we had to get sent out in good time in order to try and spot them before they cleared off and went back again. But interesting job, flew out as a co-pilot for about two years and then they said ‘Right time to move on‘ so we’re going to replace the AW the airborne early warning Shackleton with an airborne early warning Nimrod, we’re going to get a Nimrod, we’re going to put a radar on the front of it and another one on the back of it, it’s going to be very high tech and it’s going to do the same sort of job as a Shackleton but much better. So, go and get some Nimrod time first and you’ll be able to come back onto the AW Nimrod. So I went off into the maritime world, so I was only just moving down the road to Kinloss and did a conversion unit at St Mawgan onto the Nimrod and those six months at St Mawgan were basically, as I recall, forty knot fogs, because that was what the weather was like down in that part of the world over winter, often foggy and the fog moved very rapidly which was unusual so quite a lot of frustrations with the weather but got through the Nimrod conversion and then got posted back up to Kinloss as expected ‘cause I had a house up in that part of the world and then went onto the Nimrod, arrived in quite an exciting time ‘cause I arrived at Kinloss in 1982 which was the Falklands War time. So, Nimrods were heavily involved in that and what was supposed to be a about two-month conversion onto a slightly better version of the Nimrod, a mark two Nimrod, which had more modern equipment was a bit more capable, instead of it being two months it was two weeks. So, we very rapidly rushed through this course and then went straight onto a squadron where the squadron were preparing to get sent down to Ascension Island where they were going to provide cover for all the aircraft carrying on all the way down to the Falklands themselves. So all these new equipment they brought in was quite interesting they, for the Nimrod which as I say had just been basically a converted Comet with regular engines and a bomb bay, all of a sudden because they realised the capacity or the capability of this aircraft could have, we were given air-to-air refuelling so we could extend the range of the aircraft hugely, we were given the ability to drop one thousand pounds bombs from a Nimrod which was fairly unusual, and the idea of that was we were to tax some hopefully defenceless shipping, some Argentinian shipping, wouldn’t send us against anything to shoot back I don’t think but the idea was that we would be able to do that, so we hadn’t actually had a go at bombing and when we saw the bombs in the hangar beforehand I’m sure they had 1945 written on them, so I think there were some of Father’s leftovers that were still kept airworthy, or whatever the word is condition. So, I was very proud of the fact that I went and dropped one single thousand-pound bomb and then a stick of three, I thought wow this is certainly following in Father’s footsteps, that was up at the ranges at the north of Scotland, and I think I actually hit the target as well which is quite nice, ‘cause the co-pilot had to actually release the bomb whilst the pilot was busy flying. And also we got air-to-air anti-aircraft missiles so we actually had anti-aircraft missiles fitted under the wings of the Nimrod which was pretty wacky and because it was war time ish so all these things just got put in and put on without too much paperwork and bureaucracy. The idea of that again was that we were going to try and shoot down the Argentinians 707’s ‘cause there’s no chance of us ever going against a fighter or anything like that but all these modern toys and clever bits were put on and then I was really miffed because our crew had a date to go down to Ascension Island and start flying that area between the Falklands and Ascension Island and then we had a crew farewell party, so we all got together to have a party to say ‘We’re going to be off now for a few months’ and I was really miffed because the bliming Argentinians went and surrendered that weekend. So, we never got to go, it was really frustrating, we’d done all the training, all the work-up for it and then a huge let down. I think, people said ‘Were you not worried about the fact that you could have been shot down or hurt or damaged?’ and it’s interesting reflecting on that because having done so much training we all wanted to get on with the job. There was one guy, I think he was a bit older, who sort of thought I’m not sure about this it could be a bit dangerous, but generally we all wanted to go down there so it was all a bit embarrassing when we didn’t go, quite miffed. So anyway carrying on with the Nimrod world, and I think by this stage the Nimrod AW had been attempted and they’d realised that it wasn’t going to work, they had too many problems with the technical side of getting the radar at the front to talk to the radar at the back, and so it was shelved and so basically I was on Nimrods I was going to stay on Nimrods, so I carried on and at Kinloss the idea was that you’d do a ground tour so you’d maybe be in a simulator as an instructor checking the guys going through and then you’d go on a flying tour and having done it for a while you’d go onto another ground tour so I was in ops doing plans, planning future flying, and that’s the way it used to work generally you’d alternate between the two between a flying tour and a ground tour and then I think around about ’89 ish I got a ‘phone call, I used to talk to the posting man every so often, he would sort of discuss what we wanted to do and what he wanted us to do and the posting man said ‘Would you like to go and fly the Lancaster?’ Stunned silence, ‘What?’ he said ‘The pilot of the Lancaster at the moment is finding the extra workload a bit much for him and he wants to get another pilot.’ So absolutely astounded said ‘Oh yes please, rather!’ So got all set up for leaving Kinloss and going down to join BBMF and whilst all this was happening the paperwork was all going through I discovered slowly but surely that actually you can’t get a posting to BBMF, ‘cause all the jobs on BBMF are done by people who have a job in the local area who then volunteer to go on BBMF, so I found myself going down towards a ground job at Coningsby I was going to work in ops at Coningsby, and then I’d have to apply to join BBMF so I felt a bit miffed at that I’d been sort of tricked into it almost to go down to do this ground job without the certainty of BBMF but I knew Paul Day who was on BBMF who used to come shooting on the farm with father and so got down to Coningsby, got established in my ground job in ops and went and kept on battering on the door of BBMF until they let me in. So the situation was it didn’t quite turn out as expected, they had the captain and then they had two co-pilots flying the Lanc and they’d never been the idea that there was going to be another captain flying the Lanc just the one and that was OC BBMF so the chap in charge was the one who flew the Lancaster and he was the only full time member of the aircrew on BBMF, all the other aircrew members were, had jobs elsewhere so the fighter pilots would be instructors flying the Tornado, the navigators on the Lancaster would be probably in a ground job either at Finningley where they were training navigators or at Coningsby itself, the flight engineers would all come from Finningley where they would be training other flight engineers and I was there in ops so I got to fly as co-pilot although it was a pretty big secondary duty as we called it and it would be every weekend and it would be during the week as well. So, we then had the sort of battle between my primary job which was in ops and the fairly high profile requirement to be on BBMF and I had a squadron leader boss in ops but his boss was OC Ops and OC Ops was also in charge of BBMF so if it ever came to a battle between my normal day job and BBMF then BBMF used to win fortunately which I was very pleased about and my ops squadron leader was a bit miffed. So, onto BBMF. So that was in ’89 I joined BBMF and of course that was the 50th anniversary of the start of the second world war so my time on BBMF was highlighted by all these anniversaries of events of the fiftieth anniversary various events throughout the second world war. Initially, as I say, as co-pilot on the Lanc, so simply flying the Lanc was brilliant, absolutely fantastic then as time went by the army decided they wanted to fly, or jump out of a Dakota. The army wanted to jump out of a Dakota to celebrate D Day plus fifty and Arnhem plus fifty and all those sorts of things so they’d heard about this Dakota which could be made airworthy or brought back to be being airworthy, the powers that be in the RAF said ‘There’s no way the army are going to fly that, we’ll let the RAF fly and if it’s going to be flown by the RAF it will have to go to BBMF’. So the Dakota arrived on BBMF, they didn’t give us anymore ground crew to cater with the extra aircraft type so the support aircraft we’d had before that a Devon, which is a lovely little aeroplane a two engine forties type design aeroplane a transport design aircraft, it only carried about seven or eight people, but ours was a VIP fit so it was a very comfortable aeroplane to fly around, so the Devon which the multi-engine pilots used to fly was taken out of service because there weren’t enough ground crew to look after all these aircraft and the Dakota came in. And the boss, so we had to have a captain for the Dakota and so the boss of the flight who had been the Lanc co-pilot decided he was going to fly the Dakota as captain therefore we needed another Lancaster captain, wee hee, there I was volunteering. So ’92 I got to fly as captain, then initially just as sort of transit and doing odd fly pasts and then fairly quickly I got display authorisation. To display an aircraft you’ve got to go through an extra sort of set of hoops, it’s got to be approved at a fairly high level, so we had to work up to that and then get approved to do that, it’s a thing that happens at the beginning of every year, so there I was fully fledged Lancaster captain display pilot and that’s when I started, managed to get Father flying and taking Father off to various events. So, I could talk about BBMF for hours and hours and hours but basically say all the fiftieth anniversaries you get to do things with that aircraft that you wouldn’t be allowed to do with another aircraft so if I fly down the Mall at five hundred feet, dropping poppies on the Queen’s head everyone cheers, if I’d have done that in a Nimrod I’d have been out of the air force very quickly. So, it’s not only a wonderful aeroplane to fly it’s the stuff we were allowed to do and also the way you got treated you were a celebrity as far as the airshow fans were concerned, equivalent to popstars and royalty and all that sort of stuff so you got treated really, really well. Life was quite good in those days, the air force had a bit of money I suppose so whenever we used to go away at weekends we were normally staying in hotels and on allowances and things like that which was all quite generous, it’s all slowly cut back over the years but even so it was very good at the time. And then initially I was sent to BBMF for two years, or to Coningsby for two years, to fly. After two years it was review time I was having a great time I could see that the captaincy was going to come up after two years, I was captain of the Devon, so I said to them ‘Can I possibly, you know, stay another year?’ so they said ‘Oh OK, it’s not doing your career any good to stay on a ground tour’ I said ‘I don’t care about that I want to carry on flying’. So did that and I think that might have happened about another year later on so reviewed again and stayed on BBMF again and interestingly I got to captain then and that was a point actually as well where as far as my RAF overall career came to a decision point whether I wanted to leave at that point or stay on, that’s one of the option points, most of my old Nimrod and Shackleton colleagues were all leaving to go off to the airlines so that was the obvious option for me but decided well here I am, I’ve got you know, the likelihood of flying the Lancaster for a few more years as opposed to going off and being air airline pilot, so there was never any battle, never any decision for me I was going to stay where I was so I lost that opportunity to go out there really but with no regrets at all. So, carried on flying the Lanc, so after a couple of years say they asked me and I said ‘I’ll stay on’ after a couple of more years I think I probably said the same thing again and interestingly then after about four or five years they said ‘Would you mind staying on because we can’t find anyone to replace you?’ so they actually started asking me to stay on flying BBMF so that was even nicer. Because I think the reason was that the job of a BBMF pilot then you had your own normal Monday to Friday, eight to five routine, and then BBMF in theory was in the bits that were left. So normally on a Friday from say March through to October time November, yeah October, you’d either get airborne on a Friday afternoon, go away or get airborne early Saturday morning and you’d be away all weekend and then landing back on the Sunday evening, possibly Monday, so with all that the family didn’t get to see a great deal of you, and I’d got young daughters growing up and they weren’t seeing very much of me either so it was an interesting contrast from being away at the weekend where you were a celebrity and treated with all this pomp and circumstance and then you’d get back you’d land the Lancaster, maybe the kids would be there to meet you, the wife would sort of hand over a child, say ‘Right, these are yours, the grass needs cutting and the decorating needs doing’ it was down to earth, literally as well as physically so it was an interesting comparison. But it was a lot of time away so I think that was why they had a job finding people, people of the right sort of background ‘cause there were no Shackleton’s flying anymore so they hadn’t got people of a Shackleton background, Hastings was the other aircraft type they used to like people with background of and there were none of them around so they were a bit short of supply for Lancaster crew pilots and so they couldn’t actually find anybody for a year or so they couldn’t find anybody to come and replace us and so they eventually found one guy who came along quite happily, another Shackleton experience, and he was also senior to me as well so I could see my nose being a little bit out of joint now, he was senior he was qualified as an instructor so he was going to have a higher training position but then curiously he was crook almost for about two years with various family problems and injuries and things like that so it actually meant that rather than getting pushed to one side I actually got all the Lancaster flying, so for two years it was my Lancaster which used to annoy Paul Day no end. So, all the high profile and low profile stuff I got to do. I think the Lanc used to fly about ninety-four hours a year and I used to get about ninety of those ninety four hours so life was very good. But then the chap came back in fully trained up senior to me, so the writing was sort of on the wall for me. You can either stay on for a little bit longer as a junior or time to move and I reckoned after nine years I maintain that I’d achieved everything I’d wanted to do in a Lancaster, legally and illegally, one way or another so it was probably time to move on and the air force by now was sort of saying ‘Time to get back to a proper job’. So in ’97 sadly I left BBMF and I expected to go back to Kinloss to the maritime world up there to fly the Nimrods again with all the associated problems of being so far away and having a fairly detailed time that they told you when you were going to have your leave and not have your leave and fortunately I think in rather a strange way that happens with the air force there’d been an accident with a Bulldog, where a chap had been killed, so they needed to replace him and the chap who replaced him had to have a Nimrod background so he was taken from 51 Squadron, who were flying Nimrod’s at Waddington, so a slot appeared on 51 Squadron at Waddington and with me at Coningsby obviously it was ideal. I knew a few people on the squadron, they said ‘It was a pretty good way of life, what they do’ so managed to get a posting to Waddington. So, in ’98 I had to go on a quick refresher back at Kinloss on the Nimrod and then to Waddington, and the aircraft there was a Nimrod again but an electronic reconnaissance version, so a very different aircraft to the one at Kinloss, not maritime at all. Basically aircraft used to go up high level and listen to all the electronic transmissions, whether they be verbal or whether they be radars and things like that radio emissions, and again interestingly from a sort of medals point of view I think I think about that, I used to go along to all the Remembrance Day services and having been in the air force all those years had a very bare chest compared to all the old boys who had lots of jangling medals, and because of the role of the reconnaissance Nimrod we were over the Balkans, we were over later on we were over Iraq and Afghanistan and so I seemed to collect medals almost once every six months or so, so I thought ‘Hurrah’ now I’ve got all my medals I can go to these Remembrance Day parades and bravely wear my medals proudly, and then you think about it and actually most of my medals were awarded for being in the right place at the right time and with the aircraft we flew if ever there was any hint of danger we’d run away very quickly, so most of the people we used to fly against there wasn’t much of a threat to us but if ever there was a significant threat then having a high profile aircraft like ours we were just told to run in the opposite direction.
DE: Um.
MC: So I used to think then, well these guys got their medals for getting airborne knowing they were going to fly against fighters and flak and all the problems of darkness, and a lot of them wouldn’t even get any medals for doing that, whereas I was getting airborne and you know my medals were for drinking excess red wine and pizza’s in Italy and things like that so it used to sort of bring it home the value of them all but anyway Father liked to see all these medals. Obviously, Father was quite disappointed I think when I left BBMF but there was nothing we could do about that because he’d been very much involved in watching me go along and towards the end he was involved in lots of press interviews and things like that and so went to the reconnaissance Nimrod and then did that job, very enjoyable job, again flying lots of interesting places we went to, the flying itself wasn’t that exciting because we were just sort of flying around in big orbits at thirty thousand feet but the job we were doing was pretty interesting, and then we heard that the Nimrod was going to be taken out of service, and I think just before that in fact, again a lot of the multi-engine guys were going off to the airlines and they were concerned they were going to run out of Nimrod pilots so I was approaching my fifty five year point which is where you normally leave, and wondering what to do at fifty five because it was quite a strange age to start a new career, hoping maybe you know the airlines again because I thought maybe I’d get an airline job at fifty five but wasn’t sure and then the air force surprised me by, I was called into the boss’s office and said ‘Would you like a five year extension beyond fifty five?’ I thought what another five years of living in Portakabins overseas in the desert, not sure about that. But when I actually sat down and worked out all the financial side of it as opposed to the unknown of going off to the airlines it seemed like an easy decision so decided to stay on up to the age of sixty in the RAF flying the Nimrod, and then not long after I’d made that decision we then heard that the Nimrod was going to be taken out of service. So we were all very concerned about that ‘cause we thought we were doing a pretty good job with the Nimrod and it was being very much appreciated around Libya and Afghanistan by the army guys on the ground who we were helping but I think when Libya kicked off all of a sudden we got an extension of about three or four months with the aircraft otherwise we were all expecting to go off to other jobs, and on the Nimrod squadron, 51 Squadron if you had more than five years to go in the RAF then they were going to retrain you onto the American equivalent which we were going to get ourselves eventually but if you had less than five years they went off any other sort of job and because I didn’t have long left, I only had about two and a half years left in the RAF, they decided that they weren’t going to give me a flying job it would be a ground job, so I ended up working behind a desk as flight safety at Waddington which I can’t say I enjoyed at all with all the frustrations of a ground job. And then the age of sixty arrived and I left the air force and have had a wonderful time in retirement ever since.
DE: Ah ha.
MC: Now, I’ve not given up flying totally, I now I’ve joined the AEF, Air Experience Flight at Cranwell, so I fly cadets every weekend or whenever I want to basically. We fly cadets in a little single-engine training aeroplane so that’s great fun. I also fly, got a PPL, so I just fly friends around in a little four seater and the best thing for me just recently is I’ve taken, starting flying a Tiger Moth, which is an old pre-second world war training bi-plane and I do my presentation about my time in the air force I like to finish it off by showing pictures of the Tiger Moth because my Father, the first aircraft he flew in the RAF was a Tiger Moth and he went on eventually to Lancaster’s and then he ended up flying Chipmunks with the university air squadron at Nottingham and when I first joined the RAF, the first RAF aircraft I flew was a Chipmunk, then went onto Lancaster’s and ended with a Tiger Moth. So, the whole sort of circles gone all around together, that’s me.
DE: And you also do taxy runs in ‘Just Jane’?
MC: Yeah, so when I was flying on BBMF Lanc I’d always known about the Panton brothers at East Kirkby, Panton’s and the Chatterton’s, so my father and the Panton’s had known each other for quite a few generations. My father had been born on the site of where East Kirkby airfield was later made so he also had a sort of family connection with the area but the Panton’s and Chatterton’s have known each other for years so long before I got involved with the Lanc the families had known each other and we’d known that the Panton family, Fred and Harold Panton they’d had an older brother called Christopher and he had been a flight engineer on Halifax and he was lost on the Nuremberg raid which was one of the worst of the war and that had always been a very sore point to the family, the Panton family yet Father Panton found that his best way of dealing with this was to sort of black it out, blank it out. So, he’d never allowed, the boys were never allowed to go across to Germany to look at the grave, never allowed to not quite talk about him but never allowed to get involved or anything with what actually happened to him. So, it wasn’t until the father died that Fred and Harold could then do some exploration and find out a bit more about their brother and what had happened to him. They went over to Germany, Durnbach cemetery, where they found his grave and they sort of wanted to do something back home rather than sort of just a gravestone. They wanted to something rather more vibrant and so they started a museum at East Kirkby just basically in his memory and they wanted to get hold of an aeroplane. They couldn’t get hold of any Halifax’s ‘cause they weren’t any Halifaxes around and so they’d heard about a Lancaster for sale up at Blackpool so they acquired the Lanc, well they didn’t acquire it initially, when they were first interested in ’72 it had been bought by somebody else and it went to the main gate at Scampton this aircraft, NX611, and it had spent quite a few years there and whilst it was there the owner who’d bought it decided he didn’t want it anymore so put it up for sale again. So in ’83 the Panton’s successfully bought the Lancaster but had nowhere to put it so left it at the main gate at Scampton, but slowly but surely got their plans together and on part of the old airfield at East Kirkby which they’d acquired for chicken farming, they acquired the area around the control tower, they had half a hangar built on one of the old hard standings where the hangars had been, they had half a hangar built just big enough for a Lancaster and in ’88 the Lanc was dismantled at Scampton again, because it had been dismantled at Blackpool and moved to Scampton, then it was dismantled again moved by road with the help of the RAF to East Kirkby and reassembled. So, it arrived there and was reassembled in ’88 and looked magnificent and of course we all went along there and admired it tremendously and they had quite a few events there, reunions and things and it all looked very good. We could see that Fred and Harold were not satisfied with this and I think when I was on BBMF at the time they’d said ‘Do you think, do you know of anybody who could you know have a look at the engines, see if there was any chance of getting one of the engines running?’ There were a couple of guys, or one guy in particular who had been an engine man on BBMF who I knew called Ian Hickling and he had left the RAF at his due point and had gone off to do various jobs involved with aviation companies but I knew he wasn’t particularly happy with it so I said to Ian ‘You ought to speak to the Pantons ‘cause they’re interested in getting one of these engines running. He said ‘Yeah, yeah I will do, I will do, yeah’ and whenever the Panton’s spoke about it I said ‘There’s a chap called Ian Hickling, he’s very interested in getting involved, you ought to give him a call’, they said ‘Oh yeah, we will do, we will do’. Used to get really frustrated, for goodness sake, so eventually I got them speaking to each other, so Ian was taken on and within about seven months of starting on the Lanc he actually got one of the engines running so ’94 they got the first engine running at East Kirkby and before long they thought about starting another engine and then they approached me, I’d never been very far away, I was still flying the Lanc at Coningsby and said ‘Would you consider coming and taxying the aeroplane for us?’ So yes, certainly very happy to. It was all very tentative to start with but they made sure the hyd, the pneumatic brakes were working, the basic flying controls were working, the hydraulics were working and then in ’95 we struck the inboard engines up and released the brakes the aircraft just moved forward a little bit, the user brake stopped it again, so for the first time in many years anyway a Lanc was operating at East Kirkby again. Having got the first two engines going it wasn’t long before they got the third engine and then the fourth engine going and then they started offering taxy rides to people.
DE: Ah ha.
MC: So they started charging people for a ride around the airfield, or a little bit of the airfield. Things then moved on, sort of developed all the time. They then started doing night runs which I thought were the best of all because it’s atmospheric to have a night Lancaster night bomber operating in the night in the dark on a Lancaster airfield. Very, very, very, very moving I think that was and quite difficult as well, it used to give me, it was alright to taxy the Lanc in the daylight, but we operated in a fairly confined area but then when we first started doing the night runs it was also in a confined area, and it was, I was amazed how difficult it was because you’d lost sort of sight of the ground, all you had were peripheral views of lights and people with marshalling wands and things like that and again it gave me great respect and admiration for the people that had done this throughout the war in all weathers, very impressive from that point of view. Took people, so we took people for rides in it, I think the next sort of stage of development there was the BBC approached the museum with a view to doing a drama documentary. It was going to be a story about a wartime crew, present day, this was in 2000 but with flashbacks. They wanted to do some Lancaster filming, they couldn’t use the one at Coningsby because the RAF aren’t particularly enamoured with film companies and things like that and they won’t spend any excess time with film companies, so the film company came to East Kirkby instead and said ‘Is there any chance we could get the tail airborne?’ which is quite a major ask [acknowledging laug]) so the engineers again went down the back and tightened up a few of the bolts and put a few extra cables and fasteners in, and we took it out to an extension area. East Kirkby had been a standard three runway airfield, with a six thousand and two four thousand foot runways but after the war the Americans had moved into the airfield and extended one of the four thousand foot runways, east/west runway by an extra four thousand feet and so you had this eight-thousand-foot runway that they’d used. The old airfield had been reduced back to taxy ways and agriculture but that four thousand foot extension the Americans built was still there. And so, it was quite an adventure getting the Lanc from the hangar onto this four thousand foot extension. It involved some ingenuity in putting metal temporary runway covers down into the grass, it was an area where there just wasn’t enough space between some chicken hutches to actually get the wing span through so someone came up with a very clever idea I thought, they actually put a pile of sand by one of the chicken hutches so that as the Lanc was moved the wheel went over the sand, the wing went up over the chicken hutch and down on the far side. Very, very clever. Got it out there, got it onto this extension and very cautious to start with, so without any film cameras around, we just ran the aircraft down the runway, checked the brakes out ‘cause we’d never done more than walking speed before, so went a bit faster, checked the brakes out and next time went faster, checked the brakes out again, we found some fluids coming out of various places, I think it was just corroded water, and things like that, but we assured everything was alright, the brakes seemed to work, they seemed to work evenly so we got quite brave, said ‘Right we’ll go for it’ so this time at the end of the runway, put the power on, this time I put the stick forward and the tail came up quite beautifully within just a few yards of gathering low speed we roared off down the runway. The battle then of course was to keep the speed on enough to be able to keep the tail up but not go so fast that there was any chance of getting airborne, that was the last thing we wanted. We played about with the power and found that out, did it a second time and then a third time I think and then happy that we could do it the film cameras arrived a few, about a week later on the base, with all the paraphernalia that a film crew involves, the thing I remember the most is the catering wagon which was a converted double decker bus, it served wonderful food, anyway. We did all the film work and again got the tail airborne, sometimes with actors on board, sometimes with actors on the outside and it all worked really well, and so a great success. The BBC had kept the public at a sort of distance really, they didn’t want too much publicity about all this, I suppose it made a bigger impact in the film or TV programme when it came out and so having known this had all gone on there was quite a lot of clamouring from the public saying ‘Can we you know do it as a regular event? Can you get the tail up again?’ Well by this time they’d lost access to that runway extension and anyway it was a long way from the museum, so the thought was to acquire a bit of grass not very far from the museum area and get it well flattened down and rolled a few times and then look at the possibility of actually getting the tail airborne on that. And so, we did, we tried it a few times, it was much shorter distance so the tail only went up for a few seconds and then down again but there are some very nice pictures around of the Lanc on the grass with the tail airborne as we roared off across the grass. I think the family sort of thought about the risks involved and decided not to do that as a regular basis, ‘ cause if they’d have been a problem then it could have ruined the whole of the Lanc. So, we didn’t do that very, we didn’t do that many times, a few times and it was very spectacular. And then so the Lanc just went back to the regular routine now of providing passenger runs and they do it on a very regular basis, I think two days a week and bank holidays as well, and they take about ten people on board for not a small fee but I know it’s very, very popular and they’re booked up for about a year in advance so it’s a very popular pastime. If you think about it it’s the only way, only place in the world you can get a ride in a real live Lancaster on a real live Lancaster airfield, it’s the only place in the world you can do that so it’s very special, so no shortage of people queueing up to do it. Whenever I talk about the Lanc people always ask me ‘Well will it fly, is it ever going to fly again?’ So I knew that the public, the family, the Panton family have declared in the press that they do intend to get the aircraft airworthy again, it’s all very exciting. You don’t see a lot of evidence of it at the museum but in the background there’s quite a lot of work going on. They’ve got um, they’ve paid for, acquired airworthy engines, a lot of the work they’re doing now is up to an airworthy standard so any bits they change [unclear] airworthy but still a long way to go. Obviously, they’ve got to have money, it’s going to cost a lot of money, it’s going to be a technical problem although I’m sure it is feasible and the other thing is it’s a decision they have to make. If that aircraft becomes airworthy then the museum loses their centrepiece for a lot of the time when the aircraft’s away earning its living, it’s not going to cost money just to get it airworthy, it’s going to cost money to keep it airworthy so the aircraft will be away displaying and things so a lot of the time it won’t be at the actual museum itself. There’s always a risk of course of losing the aircraft as well so that’s another thing to consider, so there’s sort of three decisions; one is the finance if they can do that, one is the technical side of it and they reckon they can overcome that, so the big one is the decision, do we really want to do this? You know and I think to my mind while we can get actually get people in the aircraft doing these taxy runs, they probably wouldn’t be able to do that when it’s airworthy, to my mind whilst the one at Coningsby is flying and that obviously must come to an end at some point, when the great British tax payer decides it’s not going to pay for it anymore or whatever then that might be a cue for the East Kirkby Lanc to get airborne, don’t know, we’ll see.
DE: Do you think, do you think that they should then?
MC: I’m in two minds. I think I would love that idea of flying that aeroplane although it might be beyond my age scale now, and it would be great to see it flying, but it is very nice for people to be able to clamber over it now and actually get first-hand experience of what it was like to be in a Lanc so I like the idea of keeping it on the ground for now yeah.
DE: Ok, when we were talking earlier you spoke about flying on three. Could you tell me a bit about that?
MC: Yeah, OK. Often see pictures of, looking out over the wing of a Lancaster with the propellers feathered or one or two propellers feathered. One of my Father’s stories which I’ll recount is, as an instructor ‘cause he did his ops survived his tour of ops with 44 he went to be an instructor with 5LFS, 5 Lanc Finishing School at Syston where it was then. He spent quite a lot of time there about a year I think, and he says that’s when he really got to know the Lanc and love it even more so than the operations he was doing so he actually got to be an instructor officer there and he was very keen to pass on that confidence in the Lanc to other people so when he was doing the conversion with them, he didn’t have many flights only about seven or eight flights to convert people on the Lanc, but on one of the early ones he would get airborne, a nice good height, and he would show how capable the aeroplane is. So, he would shut one of the engines down and show the crew you just need a bit of extra power on the others, you can trim the aircraft out and it will fly quite happily on three, as we know people carried on with bombing missions on three engines all the way there and all the way back. He’d then shut the other engine down on the same side, so you’d have two engines on one side, two on the other, so that gives you quite a lot of yaw so you’d have quite a lot of trim on you’d probably have a bit of boot of rudder as well to keep the aircraft straight, but the aircraft would maintain height, you’d get rid of the bomb load if that was the case but the aircraft could still maintain height on two engines. Interesting to land but it could be done, he’d then shut another engine down and so you now had one engine running and where he was, at fairly high level at fairly light weight, then he’d sort of say ‘Yep the aircraft will still just about maintain a slow rate descent so you could probably get the aircraft back’ and then he used to surprise them, he tells me he’d surprise them, by shutting that engine down as well. So, it would be very quiet, have no engines running at all and the aircraft would glide and he’d show mid glide at a fairly good rate. And then he’d just think of the consequences he’d just punch the feathering button to restart the engine and they’d start up straight away and you’d put the power on and the aircraft would climb away. So that was always in my mind, not that I was ever going to do that in my case, but it was always a thought about four engines and there was a healthy rivalry on BBMF between fighter pilots and bomber pilots, a good little bit of rivalry, and we always used to maintain that we had nice, four nice reliable engines and they only had one so whenever we went over any water or built up areas then they would be quite nervous, you could see them trying to get higher and higher to give them a chance to either find a suitable field or parachute out, whereas we had a good solid four Merlin engines. But of course when you’ve got four engines you’ve got more chance of possibly having problems with them and my, when I first started flying on BBMF the chap who was in the charge at the time, the captain, was quite a nervous individual and he didn’t really like practising problems, practising emergencies on the grounds that if they had more problems with aircraft like Canberras, they had more problems practising emergencies than they actually had dealing with emergencies, so we never used to do any emergency training with him. Then he was replaced by a chap called Andy Tomlin who had come from a training background so he was far more used to the risks of training and practising and so he regularly used to teach us the co-pilot, me and the other co-pilot, he’d show us and we’d practise engine failures, shutting an engine down and then dealing with the remaining three engines and then bring the aircraft back into land and the various yaw problems associated with it. Then it turned out that on my very first flight as a captain, we went off down to Boston to do a quick fly past and come back and we had a problem with one of the superchargers to I actually had to shut the engine down so my very first trip as captain I came back on three engines. And then you look out over the engine, over the wing, and you see that stationary propeller and think that’s not right at all but again you concentrate on what you’re doing, so you concentrate on getting it done properly and then when you land you think whew, a sigh of relief. Curiously the next time it happened to me was when I took my Father flying with his crew. Managed to get him airborne and some of his wartime crew and again we got airborne we went off down south and came back again, and I thought a special treat then we’ll do a touch and go, so we landed the aircraft, put the power back on and take off again. And this was with Father’s rear gunner in the rear turret, a dour Scotsman, we’d landed and put the power on to go off again and he couldn’t understand this. A perfectly good landing, Father’s landings weren’t that good all the time, so perfectly good landing so why have we gone off again? I explained we were just going to do it for practice and then just, he said ‘There’s a great pillar of smoke coming out of number four engine’ and the crew looked at the engine and it was, there was no fire but it was just smoke, I think one of the cogs had broken up inside which was pushing out oil. So again, we went through our rehearsed drill, shut the engine down and feathered it so we’d got a stationary propeller which looks very odd and Father who’d now been moved back to sort of the operators’ area, he just couldn’t help himself but came out with a few sort of comments, because when you take the power back, you’ve got the aircraft trimmed down with power on three but not on one so when you bring the power back it has the effect of sort of turning the aircraft the other way. So, Father from down in the depths was saying ‘Don’t, you know remember about the trip you’re on power off’ ‘Yes thanks Dad, thank you very much’. You could see his years of training as an instructor and also the fact that he was my Dad he wanted to sort of help out as much as he could. So, I think I wasn’t too curt with him but I think I said ‘Yeah thanks Dad OK, let me get on with it’. We landed safely and took the aircraft back in again. So, the crew photographs we had afterwards were with one engine feathered, that was quite interesting.
DE: How did that make you feel having that experience with your Father?
MC: Delightful. Very, very proud after all those years where we’d been to the airshows together, seen the Lancaster flying and paid due reverence to it and all that sort of thing to actually go flying in the Lanc with him well there’s nothing better really, with all the various things I did in the Lancaster, legal and illegal, most definitely the best was to take Father flying in it as well.
DE: What illegal things did you do?
MC: [Laughs] Could talk about it now I suppose. It was just [high jinks?] generally. Whenever I used to, if there were any events on at East Kirkby on a Sunday afternoon wherever I was coming from I used to sort of manage to get the aircraft over East Kirkby somehow. And in the Monday morning I’d normally be summoned to OC Ops office to explain why I’d been wasting Lancaster hours. And then various heights, there was one time, I’d always wanted to fly down the Derwent Dam because everyone knows about the Dambusters and all that stuff and they’d flown in their rehearsals, the Dambusters themselves when they were rehearsing had flown over the Derwent Dam, and when they’d done the film they’d spent a lot of time flying over the Derwent Dam so it was always something I wanted to do. I was co-pilot for the fiftieth anniversary which was very highly publicised and lots of press but wasn’t allowed to touch the controls because again the guy was a bit nervous about the height we were going to go down to. He kept far too high as far as I was concerned, so when I got my captaincy it was something I always wanted to do is fly over the Derwent, always, always, always. But every time I’d asked because everything a Lanc does is approved at fairly high level and every time I asked they’d said ‘No, no it’s too high profile to do that sort of thing’. Eventually it was a rather sad occasion that one of the ground crew who been a great friend and a great help of mine had left BBMF and then died very suddenly of a heart attack not long afterwards and his family had always been associated with the Derbyshire area and they had permission to put a little plaque on the Derwent Dam just in memory of Terry Shaw. So, the family had got in touch with me and said you know ‘Is there any chance of giving us a flypast?’ I thought this sounds good, so approached the powers that be and put it in all the right phrases and good public relations and stuff like that and I think the response I got was ‘OK but one pass and no publicity’ and so that one pass actually because of where we were we got there a little bit on the early side and we weren’t too sure if the family were there going to be all ready for us so I went round twice anyway so that was slightly illegal, and the height we came down to was definitely illegal. [Laughs]
DE: Wonderful, OK thank you. Again, before we started the interview you told me a little bit about Peter Lees and a little bit about your Father’s book, do you?
MC: Yeah, when Father’s crew were assembled in the usual ramshackle way of who knew who and what friends got on with who they ended up with seven bods obviously and the bomb aimer had, called Pete Lees, the bomber aimer had come from an RAF background where the rest of the guys had just sort of come in for the war, Pete Lees had been in a little bit longer and so he had a bit more experience and therefore was a little bit I think miffed with the casual attitude of these brand new shiny sergeants who only, hadn’t got anytime time in so to speak. But he was a very conscientious bomb aimer and at times when they were over the target and he wasn’t actually happy with the set-up he told the crew to go around again which they weren’t obviously too happy about the idea of in the middle of a target, but he had the, he was a perfectionist, he wanted to get the job done properly if you were going to go all that way. And one night quite early on in Father’s tour after he’d been on ops for about a month they were selected to be a standby crew, and a standby crew on a squadron on 44 as all the other stations they were the crew that would provide any spare bods if somebody was needed for another crew. So if any one member of a crew that was going to fly that night went sick then a standby crew would provide the spare, unless I think if it was a pilot. If it was a pilot that went sick then the whole crew were replaced. But on this occasion, I think it was 23rd November ‘44, chap called Buckle was captain and his bomb aimer called Mantle-Scott was sick and I’m not too sure why but I do think that it must have been very late notice because I believe that Mantle-Scott’s equipment was all on the aeroplane at that point because it was subsequently lost and he had to claim for it, so it must have been quite a last-minute call he went sick. So, my Father’s bomb aimer Pete Lees was called and he had to go in his place with Buckle and as often happens on these occasions the crew didn’t come back. It was a trip to Berlin I think as well, crew didn’t come back and so quite a blow for Father and the crew having just sort of started off on ops for that to happen and there are some quite poignant little ideas that Father wrote to the parents of Pete Lees to explain, well you couldn’t explain, but to just give their sympathies and hold out hope and it’s interesting that in Father’s letter he says you know ‘From the number of people shot down there’s quite a large percentage alive as prisoners of war’ which I think is twisting the truth a little bit unless that is what Father genuinely believed but he was trying to keep the spirits up. And so, for a little while they flew with odd other bomber aimers, whoever was spare at the time, and eventually the sick bomb aimer joined Father’s crew and they were delighted with him he was very much more of sort of in their ilk and fitted in with the crew very well so they were very pleased with him, Mantle-Scott. So, they all finished the tour and they all went off and went off to be training instructors and things like that later on. But much, many years later, when I was involved with East Kirkby I had a call I think initially it was from the relations of the family of Pete Lees who were, were getting in touch and met up with them, met them at East Kirkby and they brought the memorabilia they had of Pete and it was in a brown suitcase, an old brown suitcase, and it turned out that this was the old brown suitcase that my Father had posted and gone through all Pete’s stuff when he was lost, had actually posted it back down to his parents along with the letter that he written to him and they’d bought all this stuff back to show me. So, the brown case, the letter that Father had written, I’d never seen before but had heard of and various other memorabilia that Pete had had. And we took the families, took the family, and showed them round the Lancaster at East Kirkby and then we showed them the spot at Dunholme Lodge where we think Pete would probably have flown from, where the last time he’d been on the ground so to speak alive so obviously it was very important for the family and quite moving for them and not long after that I had another ‘phone call again from East Kirkby by another person who had approached the museum trying to get hold of me and it was a lady called Jen Scott, Jennifer Scott. Jen Scott was the grand-daughter of Mantle-Scott the bomb aimer who’d joined Father’s crew and it turns out she was at Newcastle University doing a history degree and she’d decided to do her dissertation on Bomber Command and I think the media, how the media reported Bomber Command, and she just wondered if I could help her a bit with some of the research she needed to do. So of course, we got her down to East Kirkby, took some photographs in the nose of the Lanc where her grandfather had been and took them to also look round the Lancaster at Coningsby and also out to Dunholme Lodge again to the spot there. So this is quite moving for us and the family of course and I just kept remembering the fact that if her grandfather hadn’t gone ill that night then she probably wouldn’t exist ‘cause he’d probably have gone down with the Buckle crew, so quite poignant and she was very grateful for all the help she got and we kept in touch and she knew about the family of the bomb aimer that had been lost and on one occasion she went to visit Berlin for something else and was going to go and visit the grave of the chap who was lost and contacted, through me contacted the family and we came up with a nice little plaque which they produced and she went and laid it at Peter’s grave. I thought this was very, very poignant that the grand-daughter of the chap who survived, because he had a cold that night, went and put a little plaque by the grave of the chap who hadn’t survived. All down to a cold.
DE: Are you still OK?
MC: Yeah, [laughs].
DE: Can you, can you tell me a bit about your Father’s book? You said earlier that he wouldn’t talk about it, how did he come to write it all down?
MC: Yeah, so Father didn’t speak much about the horrors of the war he used to talk about the flying and he’d talk about his love of the Lancaster and that sort of thing and obviously, there was a lot of other parts of his life, when he’d been a student beforehand and growing up as a kid and then after the war when he went off to be initially a lecturer and then a farm manager. Lots of little stories he’d tell us, he was great at telling stories but he was no, and they used to get bigger each time of course like the length of the fish, but they got bigger and better each time. And I knew that with my memory and the family’s memories etc., etc we’d lose all these unless we wrote them down so we used to say to him ‘Will you write them down?’ He said ‘Yes I will when I retire I’ll write these little stories down’ and we knew that was never going to happen ‘cause you never retire as a farmer. And it sort of came by chance that often you used to get sort of fan mail and things like that into BBMF and one letter was written by a chap called Richard Underwood who worked for the Council down in Bourne, I think he was a planning officer or something, and he was going to write a little article about Father and I for the Parish magazine or the Council magazine I think it was. I think he was going to plan about two sides of A4 in this and so he asked if it was OK, he asked our permission to do that. And as always with these things we used to pass them onto Father and he’d replied ‘Yes sure that’s fine’ so Richard wrote down a couple of notes, or a couple of pages of notes that he’d gained from Internet and magazines and things and gave them to Father and Father had changed a few bits, corrected a few bits, added a few little notes and added a couple of interesting stories and sent it back to Richard said ‘There you go ’and Richard was so impressed by this, said ‘Oh that’s really good, if I incorporate those can you have look at that again and if you’ve got any other little stories ‘ and he used to go to and fro for about two or three years getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until he got the whole story covered and there was a lot of discussion about the name of the book but eventually they decided to call it ‘ Ploughshare and Shining Sword’ based on Harris’ opinion that the Lancaster was his shining sword, and that ploughshares were converted into Lancaster’s and after the war converted back to ploughshares I suppose. Anyway so the book was slowly, and it was a slow process getting it together, and then I think they had quite a while trying to find someone to publish it as well, and eventually it went through all the publishing and corrections, etc., etc. and illustrations and things and then came the day of the, we knew the date of the publication was getting close, but father was getting iller and iller with various heart disease and things like that and it turned out that father had actually seen everything of the book but had actually passed, had died six days before it was actually published so never got to saw the final finished version but as far as I was concerned I think they had about a thousand copies made and the proceeds went off to the Linc’s and Lancashire Association, but as far as I was concerned I just wanted one copy with all those stories recorded forever which is what I’ve now got so very happy with it.
DE: Smashing. How, it’s another big question, but how do you, what are your thoughts on the way Bomber Command has been remembered?
MC: Yeah, I guess I have been in an environment of Bomber Command for quite a few years now and obviously everyone in the environment I’ve been has been very pro Bomber Command and everyone I’ve met has been very pro and you do realise obviously there’s the other side of the story as well and every so often I just sort of quietly reflect on the fact that the Lancaster was designed to destroy and wonder why it’s got such a wonderful following everywhere, because wherever I go everyone raves about how wonderful the Lancaster is and sometimes depending on the environment you sort of say ‘Well the aircraft was designed as a machine of destruction’ and then see what sort of a reaction you get but most people say ‘Yeah but it was necessary at the time’ that sort of thing so I suppose you’re testing the water a little bit. I follow the general line that the guys at the time were all doing their job and I know sort of from personal experience if you’re trying to put together an operation where you’re trying to have one particular aim of getting an aircraft whether its bombing or whatever over a particular place at a particular time there’s so many different factors involved that there’s nearly always something that goes wrong. So, you have to sort of try and allow for all these things that are going to go wrong and achieve what you can at the end of it, occasionally everything goes wrong like the Nuremburg? raid and very little is achieved and they lose a huge amount of aeroplanes and then on the other occasions very few things go wrong and the target gets devastated like Dresden. And so that’s my sort of form of explanation as to why things like Dresden happened. It wasn’t that they, it was just [unclear] made a special effort to kill as many people as possible, just that all these factors were involved every night and occasionally it all came together and occasionally it didn’t. But for the crews themselves I think because of all the armchair experts after the war and the fact that they never got a sort of campaign medal and things like that, an awful lot of people did just withdraw into themselves and didn’t keep quiet about the war but I think they were reluctant to talk about what they did. So probably again with my Father he’d tell me about the Lancaster but didn’t tell me much about the actual raids or the things he saw and went on. So yeah you feel a bit mad really that they were cheated out of it in a way, everyone else got the recognition for it and yet what they did they should have been recognised for it as well. So, I suppose I, fairly standard sort of line that you maintain and yes there’s recognition nowadays but it’s just annoying it’s too late for so many people.
DE: Do you think that lack of recognition is somehow led into the way the squadron associations were created in their little individual memorials on stations and things?
MC: Yeah, I guess that’s a good point, and I think the associations seemed to sort of blossom, I guess it tied in with most peoples’ retirement so when they were busy working they didn’t really have time for things like that and when they’d stopped working they had a bit more time for reflection and thinking about it. They’d think about the characters they’d worked with and the friendships they’d made and sort of try and re-live some of that and when they did get back together again they’d talk about what they’d done and they’d find that this feeling of reluctance to talk about what they’d done in the war was a mutual thing and sort of because they were in the environment they were in they could talk about it, they could talk about the bad times as well as good times. And therefore I think the associations were a good thing because it got all these individuals who had their own private thoughts together to realise they shouldn’t be ashamed of what they did, it was, they were doing their job etc. and stuff like that. So, I think the associations are a good. Sadly now we’re at the point where most of the old boys, the veterans, are either not with us any more or at a point where they can’t sort of get together so the associations are slowly dwindling away.
DE: Do you feel that your job flying the Lanc gives you any special insight too?
MC: I think it gives you responsibilities almost in a way. I think flying the Lanc and taxying the Lanc at East Kirkby is sort of representing all the guys that flew the aircraft as I say for real so I think it’s important that we do tell the story of them and keep the memories alive and I’ve got a little presentation that I give called ‘The Tale of Two Lancs’ it’s normally to sort of Womens’ Institute and groups like that in the back of the village hall, and I finish that presentation having spoken of all my Lancaster experiences and the fantastic opportunities I’ve had by just putting up the badge of the Lancaster and the badge of BBMF, the Lancaster is to remember the many and then the BBMF is lest we forget and I think that is an idea that when I do my talk I just want to bring back and bring and highlight the memory of all these guys who were lost or carried on and sort of died naturally but with the, that sort of sometimes that idea haunting them all the time behind, but just like to make sure that the memory of what they did stays alive.
DE: Smashing. I think I’ve gone through all the questions I’d jotted down. Is there anything else that you can think of that you’d like to?
MC: Just talk a little bit about the Lanc at Waddington.
DE: Ah ha. Sure.
MC: When I was at Waddington flying my Nimrods I was surprised to find one time that I was asked to go and taxy a group at East Kirkby that were all from Waddington which is where I was based and I was quite surprised, why am I, do not know about this group? And it turned out that this was a project, force development project, force development was an idea the air force developed about ten, fifteen years ago, they realised that some of the young airmen in the RAF actually had no idea about the history of the air force or what the air force had achieved. So, there was a certain amount of resources and energy put into educating the young folks about the history of the RAF, and also encouraging them to develop their own personal abilities as well. So, a project started up at Waddington which was to research an aircraft that had crashed in Scotland and I got involved with this. This group that I had offered to do a taxy ride for were the group that were involved in this project, and it turned out that a Lancaster Mark I which had the registration PD259, which had got airborne from Waddington on 31st August ’44 on a training flight and the crew on board were Australians ‘cause it was 463 Squadron and they were an Australian squadron although they had a Scottish engineer flight engineer. And we’d heard that the aircraft had crashed up in the highlands of Scotland not very far from Aviemore and nobody really knew why, but I was surprised that I didn’t know anything about this because I thought I knew quite a lot about Lancs and the ones that were left, but I didn’t know anything about this one at all. So, did some investigating and joined this little group at Waddington and in 2008 there was an expedition organised to go and visit the crash site, and I wasn’t too sure about it because it involved four hours of walking from the nearest bit of road on the A9 up to the crash site, and the nearest town I think is Kingussie and the crash site as I say was up in the peat bog highlands and was about a four hour walk from the nearest bit of civilisation. So was very much looking forward to it, got out there, had seen some photographs of what was out there, got out there and was amazed to find the state of the bits that were there, the wreckage still perfectly good markings, you could see the squadron letters on the side of it J, O, G, you could see bits of the roundels and lots of the markings on the aircraft that had been sat out there in this environment of plus 20 in the summer to sort of minus 30 in the winter of snow and ice and hail and survived over sixty cycles of this was still in such good condition, amazing. So obviously very fascinated and also very daunting to wander round the crash site of where these seven young men had been killed thinking that’s the spot where these guys were killed, and that was just sort of a visit to the site initially. Got back absolutely full of enthusiasm thought it would be really nice to get some of those bits back to Waddington. The land owner had been a very good chap, he’d been very protective of the site because it wasn’t a burial site because the guys had all been returned to, or been recovered, bodies had been recovered and buried in Cambridge War Graves Cemetery, apart from the engineer who was buried in Scotland. But he was very protective of the site, didn’t want sort of pilferers and people pinching stuff ‘cause it was quite significant to him but he when we explained what we were trying to do he was very pro very much onside and with a bit of wrangling managed to get hold of a helicopter on a training flight in the local area and with a specialist team that were involved in under-slung loads you have to be quite careful about what you put under a helicopter of course, all these experts came along, all of this came together and I was very impressed about how it came together and we actually managed to recover some of the parts of the aircraft in the under-slung load down to by the main road, by the A9, and then back to, ferried back to Waddington. We did two events like that one in 2009 and one in 2010. So, we’d now got some very significant parts of this aircraft recovered back at Waddington and with the help of the Lanc at Coningsby some engineers have made an internal frame just the same size as the inside of a Lancaster so we’ve actually managed to attach some of these sections that we’ve recovered onto this frame sort of almost like a reconstruction of a Lancaster although we haven’t actually got enough room to make a full-size Lancaster. So, it’s quite significant now and it achieved the aim of the people at Waddington who can now actually put the hands on something that if they’re ground crew their forebears did, were involved in seventy years ago. So, it’s quite tangible to see something of a real live Lancaster and we were very impressed, this aircraft was only three weeks old when it crashed, so I call it a brand new Lancaster which amuses people when you see the state of it now. It was a brand new Lancaster, three weeks old, it had still achieved seven, carried out seven operations in that time, six or seven operations and one of the pilots who’d done three of those operations, a chap called Bill Purdy had heard about our project even though he was in Australia and he’d come over to see his old Lancaster and gave us some wonderful tales about the stories of how it had been involved in his general life as well and so we thought as a nice idea we’d present him with part of the Lancaster to take home. So, we found one of the exhaust stubs, there were quite a few of those scattered over the hillside, we found an exhaust stub, rather bent, but we gave it to him to take back. On the grounds that we thought it might look rather suspicious going through the scanner at the airport security we gave him a sort of signed certificate to confirm it was his property and that we’d presented it to him and the significance of it. So, he went back very happy with that. Didn’t expect to see him again but he’s a very adventurous chap and he’s been back to the UK several times since then and come to visit and see the progress in our project. But because when you take bits off a crash site you have to have a licence to take bits off it when you, the licence has to be in somebody’s name so it’s in my name, and so when I recover bits I have to send a full report of all the bits I’ve taken off the crash site and then the MOD come back with a letter, a standard format letter, saying the RAF and the MOD have no longer any interest in these parts, they now belong to you. So, all these Lancaster bits belong to me so I’ve got my own bits of a Lancaster which I’m very proud of, and the visitors centre is open to members of the public by prior arrangement.
DE: Smashing. Well thank you very much again.
MC: Good stuff.
DE: Unless you can think of something else you want to add that will.
MC: I’ll check my notes, things I thought about. Covered it all really. Pete Lees, PD259, my Father’s stories and the two Lancs presentation I do, yeah, brilliant. Yep, so do you, would you want copies of Father’s stories?
DE: I’d love to yes.
MC: Yeah, electronically on there if you wish.
DE: Oh brilliant, that’s fantastic I’ll get those sorted.
MC: Yeah.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AChattertonM160331
Title
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Interview with Mike Chatterton
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
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eng
Format
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01:24:28 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Date
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2016-03-31
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Mike Chatterton grew up on a farm. His father, John Chatterton was a Lancaster pilot during the war, before returning to university and becoming a lecturer, then later becoming a farmer. Mike joined the Royal Air Force from university in the 1970’s and flew Jet Provost, helicopters, Shackletons and Nimrods. On posting to RAF Coningsby he joined the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight where he progressed to Captain the Lancaster. He was able to fly his father and some of his crew. Mike also carried out taxy runs on ‘Just Jane’ at East Kirkby and assisted in the recovery of parts of Lancaster PD259 from a crash site in Scotland to RAF Waddington.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Dawn Studd
44 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
final resting place
Halifax
killed in action
Lancaster
memorial
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cranwell
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kinloss
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Waddington
rivalry
Shackleton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1875/46466/SHarriganD[Ser -DoB]v320002.mp3
89516deefc0392745cfbc6759b1bedf6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Interviews with veterans recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.<br /><br />Interview with Bertie Salvage <br />Three part interview with Dougie Marsh <br />Interview with Terry Hodson <br />Interview with Stan Waite Interview with John Langston<br />Interview with Nelson Nix <br />Two part interview with Bob Panton <br />Interview with Basil Fish <br />Interview with Ernest Groeger <br />Interview with Wilf Keyte <br />Interview with Reginald John Herring <br />Interview with Kathleen Reid <br />Interview with Allan Holmes <br />Interview with John Tomlinson <br />Interview with Cliff Thorpe and Roy Smith <br />Interview with Peter Scoley <br />Interview with Kenneth Ivan Duddell <br />Interview with Christopher Francis Allison <br />Interview with Bernard Bell <br />Interview with George Arthur Bell <br />Interview with George William Taplin <br />Interview with Richard Moore <br />Interview with Kenneth Edgar Neve <br />Interview with Annie Mary Blood <br />Interview with Dennis Brader <br />Interview with Les Stedman <br />Interview with Anthony Edward Mason <br />Interview with Anne Morgan Rose Harcombe<br />
<p>The following interviews have been moved to the relevant collections.<br /><span>Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46454">Kathleen Reid</a></span><br />Interview with Wing Commander <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46467">Kenneth Cook DFC</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46456">Colin Cole</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/46464">Charles Avey</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46470">John Bell</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46459">Les Rutherford</a><br />Interview with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/show/46460">James Douglas Hudson</a></p>
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
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Interviewer: This is an interview with Mr Nelson Nix at RAF Coningsby on the 19th of May 2011 concerning his experiences during the Second World War as a child and afterwards. Would you like to start Nelson with that little story?
NN: Yeah. Ok then. Well, right from the very start I would be about six, five six years old and my father who kept the village store he also was in the Special Constables and then later on became in the Observer Corps which In 1942 became The Royal Observer Corps. Now, there was a post, a Royal Observer Corps post on the Fossdyke, on the riverbank which he used to man at night and do his job in the daytime of course running the shop. And after that of course they were [pause] scrub that bit, I’ve forgotten [laughs] I’ve forgotten what I was saying. But anyway, yeah he, the post itself that was issued with what they called a Darkie set and the Darkie set was so that they could contact or the aircraft coming back that was probably been shot up and things and couldn’t get back to the base or lost and that sort of thing like they did occasionally do and consequently he could contact them. Either put them on the right heading or get them to ditch on the Black Buoy Sands in the Wash which was where they could be rescued from. There used to be two, as I remember two boats in the Boston Docks that could be launched to go and pick them up. Air sea rescue as it presumably would be called then. I don’t know. But anyway, that sort of thing happened and again as a boy I can remember standing outside the shop in the evenings watching all these hundreds of aircraft which over the Wash area, would be taking off from places throughout Lincolnshire to get the height and formations before they went off to Germany to bomb. I didn’t know that. It was all rather fun for a boy of six or seven. So from that I can still picture that in my mind, all those hundreds of aircraft. It could have been some of the thousand bomber raids which I didn’t know about then. But they would be getting the height and that ready to fly off and everything would go dead quiet after that. You know, it was just one big buzz. But, and then the next thing you probably heard was them coming back again later on, you know. But, yeah it was quite an experience and even today I can remember it as if it was yesterday. Things today I can’t remember what happened earlier on [laughs] It’s hard but from then I always had a keen interest in aircraft and no military record whatsoever. I failed my medical test for the Forces on the call up when it, so I didn’t go. What I did then I joined the Royal Observer Corps and I did thirty two years in the Royal Observer Corps as a voluntary, well I went through from basically an observer to instructor observer and then on to head observer and we were, our headquarters at Fiskerton in Lincoln and when I first joined it was at Derby. But that was a long while ago. I can’t remember too much about that but we did aircraft reporting for a start and then gradually we came on to the underground posts which was a post consisted of three post members at a time. Each post had about ten to twelve observers which we could go and change duties with and what have you. And that, we used to have exercises on aircraft reporting and you know that kind of thing. And I’ve got to think back. And anyway, things sort of progressed to the Cold War situation where we was underground in these underground bunkers and they, we would go on duty, do these exercises for reading the different instruments we had on board or in the post. We were a sealed unit at the time where we were fastened down and then it was all theatrics. Well, you couldn’t practice on the real bombs [laughs] but it was just in case we did. Through triangulation if you had two or three posts within say a bomb had fell, exploded, so you’d have a flash which was recorded on a pinhole camera and all the [unclear] would be around it at four cardinal points. So by reading those and putting them over the radio to Fiskerton if you had three posts you would get, you would find out whether the bomb had actually dropped or if it was an airburst or a ground burst. So that if you had a ground burst you get more fallout than you would from an airburst. But an airburst would probably flatten things more. So that’s how it worked and I was in that as I said for thirty two years. In that time unfortunately I did have cancer and that’s what twenty two years ago now and I came on to the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. One of our lads on, which I was on Coningsby post at that time, I was head observer there and he said, ‘Well, you know, why don’t you?’ I’d lost, I’d had to sell my business and what have you through the cancer so I came down to Coningsby and I’ve been down here for twenty two years taking people around Lancasters, Spitfires, Hurricanes and the Dakota of course. But it’s part of your life but I often think what would I have done if I hadn’t have done this and I thought, yeah most of the guys here they really thoroughly enjoy doing it as a voluntary job. So there we are. That’s about it. I’m still kicking about after twenty two years of cancer so it’s fine.
Interviewer: Well, thank you very much, Nelson. That was very interesting.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Nelson Nix
1032-Nix, Nelson
Identifier
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SHarriganD[Ser#-DoB]v320002
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Format
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00:07:47 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Pending OH summary
Creator
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Claire Bennett
This Interview was recorded by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire.
Date
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2011-05-19
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Nelson Nix grew up as a child during the war. His father kept the village shop and was also a special constable and member of the Observer Corps which later became the Royal Observer Corps. The post had access to the Darkie sets which were used to guide stricken or lost aircraft back to their base or directed them to ditch in the Wash where boats were on standby to collect the crews. Nelson went on to join the Royal Observer Corp himself and was with them for thirty two years. After his service he then went on to be a guide at the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight based at RAF Coningsby.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Lincolnshire
England--The Wash
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
childhood in wartime
ditching
home front
RAF Coningsby
Royal Observer Corps
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/177/2340/ABattyPH161014.1.mp3
5c4ac0fc187b4591d3ca4948980d7baf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Batty, Philip
Phil Batty
P Batty
Description
An account of the resource
19 Items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with Philip Batty (b. 1925). He discusses the death of his older brother Dennis early in the Second World War, his wartime service with 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate as a wireless operator/ air gunner, and his long post war career. The collection also includes a number of group photographs of airmen after training, photographs of aircraft in southern Africa, his log book and propaganda material.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-14
Identifier
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Batty, P
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CH: Right, this interview is taking place at Phil Batty’s home in Wellingore, Lincolnshire on the 14th of October 2016, it’s being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. The interviewer is Cathie Hewitt, also present are Guilia Sanzone, Ann Batty and Chris Aram. Okay Phil, if you’d like to give me this information of your date and place of birth and your early childhood.
PB: Right, well, I was born on the 7th of March 1925, at a small village in Yorkshire. Er, my parents, my father was, actually in the Flying Corps in World War One, and he, he stayed in after the war and married my mother in 1918, but mother didn’t care for the Air Force, they were stationed at Castle Bromwich, and father decided that they would leave and he got himself a job as a draughtsman at Rolls Royce in Derby, but unfortunately came the depression and he was laid off, the only job that he could find was in the mines up in Yorkshire, which is where we went, but mother hated that even more, she was determined that we were not going to stay there [laughs] and er, we emigrated back to the West Midlands where father got a job with Walsall Town Council as a roads foreman, and, that’s where I was brought up and educated, at Elmore Green Central School. Mother didn’t care for that either [laughs] I went to sit the entrance examination for I think it was the King Edward Grammar School in Birmingham, I passed it but unfortunately Walsall refused to pay the fees. So, I was stuck in Walsall and went to Elmore Green for my secondary education. I was quite happy there, and, I stayed there until of course war broke out in 1939 when I was fourteen, I was just about to leave school anyway, I’d got a job at the town council myself in the transport department as a clerk, and, there I sat, waiting for things to happen. My brother Dennis, of course was a fully qualified wireless operator air gunner [indistinct], he was with 226 Squadron and once the army got themselves organised they all deployed over to France as the advanced air striking force with the British Expeditionary Force. They were equipped with Fairey Battles, a single engine light bomber, utterly unequipped to face the Luftwaffe, but there they are, and there we sat and waited. Dug a big hole in the back garden, built ourselves an Anderson shelter [laughs] and that sort of thing and waited for the real war to start, which eventually, it did, with a bang, crash, wallop, and, er, Dennis came home when the army retreated, they suffered horrendous losses. He kept a little diary while he was in France of his — of his friends who didn’t come back, because the Messerschmitts knocked them out of the sky like fly swatting really, er, but he came home eventually with his kit bag full of champagne and [laughs] and stayed with us for about a week and then went back, and his squadron reformed with Blenheims and were based at Wattisham, and there they started to bomb the Channel ports where the Germans were then assembling an invasion fleet. It was on bombing, there was bombing raids they went in, inland to bomb an airfield, and they were attacked by some Messerschmitts, the pilot was hit, in the neck, but Dennis shot one Messerschmitt down and that put them off, they left them alone and they got back to base safely and that's where all three of them were awarded the DFM. And, Dennis came home to celebrate. Unfortunately he was posted up to Scotland, I think he was going on the gunnery leaders’ course, but this is a week later and he was killed in a flying accident [pause]. This was my first [pause] real [pause] [cries].
CH: Would you like to take a break?
[interview paused]
CH: Okay?
PB: And er, of course, that’s the last thing my mother wanted [laughs] she said, ‘No, no way, you’ll never pass the medical’, ‘cause I’d had an ear operation, she said, ‘You won’t pass’, [interference] anyway, she said, ‘You’re not going until you’re called up’, and of course eventually I was [laughs]. Passed the medical, went for aircrew, went to Birmingham to the attestation centre, er, which was where they gave you a little exam to make sure you could read and write a little essay and that sort of thing, and, then they did [indistinct] a little test with a little machine keeping a dot in the centre, and they said, ‘Oh, what do you want to be?’, and I said, 'Well I want to be a wireless operator air gunner’, they said, ‘Oh you, no we’re, what about pilot, navigator, you know?'. I said er, ‘Well, how long’s that take?’. He said, ‘Well, you’ll be put on a list and we’ll call you when we want you’, but I said, ‘Will I be quicker being a WOP AG’, he said ‘Yeah a bit’, I said, ‘I’ll have it’ [laughs] and er, that was it then, er, course mother was dead against it, but I said, ‘I’ll be alright’, [emphasis] you know it’s, I hadn’t the faintest idea of course that the losses were mounting for bomber crews at the time but, anyway eventually I got this paper asking me to report to Lords cricket ground, I thought, whatever, funny place for the Air Force, but off I go and they were playing at the time, I think it was the West Indies, I’m not sure, but that’s where you got issued with uniform, numbers, 2220759, ha, ha [laughs] you never forget it [laughs] and er, all the stuff you needed, and put your civilian clothes in a suitcase and send ‘em home, and, we were accommodated in London, in flats at the time being, for a little while, and then put on a train to Bridlington. Bridlington by the sea, yes, and there we were taught to march, yes, and I thought oh God, if this is aircrew, you know, I thought we were going to fly [emphasis] but no, we were marching up and down the promenade and [laughs] and er, learning the Morse code and that sort of thing, signalling by lamp and all the rest of it, and er, we were there for about , I suppose about four to six weeks and then I was posted down to the radio school at Madley to be taught the real skills of being a wireless operator air gunner and, there started the real training really. Er, I was there, I suppose about eight months, passed out, but that was the real jump [indistinct] because when you got your brevet, you got immediate promotion to sergeant, and now this is a big lump, a big jump really, er, and I was posted at the same time over to a place called Staverton, just outside Gloucester. They had a sergeants’ mess, we had sheets [emphasis] on the bed [emphasis] [laughs] fantastic, and we had knives and forks set out in the mess, we thought, you know, we’ve started to live, yeh. Er, the other funny thing was that we were briefed secrecy, you will see an aeroplane here, which you’ve never seen in all your life because it hadn’t got a propeller, it just whistles, and of course it was the jet, the very first, and it did seem very odd I must admit. Er, and we were there for six weeks flying an Anson and that’s where I first met up with my navigator, John, and we flew together for some time, and I think it was when we finished at, there, we went off up north to Dumfries and by God it was cold, [emphasis] we were living in Nissen huts and they were freezing [emphasis] oh, one stove in the middle that everyone tried to huddle round and how it is, but, once again it was just about six weeks, and then we went to, down to the OTU, that was just outside Leicester, where we upgraded to Wellingtons and that’s where we got that leaflet, the operational crews were diverted in one night, and I must admit they all looked clapped out [laughs] very tired, but er, I think that, we went, OTU was where we first started to fly as a crew, we picked up a pilot, a co-pilot, er, I still flew with John Tidmarsh, we’d been flying together then for six, seven months or so, so we de-, decided we’d stick together and the rest of the crew could join us [laughs] which is what we did, as you do, a little band of men. And, we did, I think it was a couple of months on Wellingtons, flying round the countryside practising navigation, bombing, and waiting to march onwards which we did eventually. We were posted to a Lancaster conversion unit, and I think I went to the one just outside Newark, er, it’s in my log book somewhere, and that was the, yes [pause]. Chris’ll find it in there [pause].
CA: Winthorpe.
CH: Winthorpe.
PB: After I, after we’d finished at the, I remember looking at the, where we were, 'cause it had big chimneys at the end of the runway, and I said to the pilot, he's a bloke called Ford, Henry, I said, ‘I hope you can manage to get a Lancaster over the top of those chimneys’, Henry [laughs] ‘they look pretty ominous to me’, he said, ‘Don’t you worry Phil’ [laughs]. Anyway, we passed and eventually 'cause we are coming to right to the end of the war now, and I didn’t, didn’t think we were going to make it before VE Day, we just about did it, we would have done, but not quite. We were posted to a squadron, posted to 50 Squadron at Sturgate and, off we went, and we’d just done the, squadron commander flew with us and pronounced us fit to join his squadron and, but I think it was a week later that we had VE Day, that was it, the war was over. So, we came into the briefing room one morning and saw [unclear] the squadron commander and said ‘Well fellas, well done’, he said, ‘It’s over’, he said, ‘We are now part of the Northern Striking Force', he said, 'Who we’re going to strike I don’t know but that's who we are’, he said, ‘5 Group are going out with Tiger Force to the Far East to fight the Japanese, but we’re staying here, but I’ve got some good news for you’, he said, ‘You can draw some khaki drill’, he said, ‘'Cause we are off to Italy on Monday’, [laughs] he said, ‘What we’re going to do’, he said, he said, ‘We’re going to pick up some prisoners of war up and bring 'em home’, he said, ‘Everyone, yes’, he said, ‘Our [emphasis] prisoners of war [laughs] not theirs’, he says 'We’ll paint twenty circles on the floor’, he said, ‘You put twenty passengers each and off you go’. 'And it’s like an operation, there’ll be sixty or so aeroplanes and some are going to Pomigliano and some to Bari, but we’re going to [unclear]’, he says, ‘Now there’s three things, one, do not try and change your money on the black market, none of that, don’t go down to Naples and get drunk on the local vino, right, and make sure you look after the soldiers [laughs] 'cause they won’t have flown’ [laughs]. But of course they hadn’t, but they were very pleased to jump on board the Lanc, er of course it took a long time, I think it was seven or eight hours trip each way but they didn’t care. Is that what you’re looking at Chris? Yes, they called it Operation Dodge, yes and we did one or two of those and, that was how the — the war virtually ended for me.
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back with you?
PB: Yeah.
CA: I don't think he heard you.
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back on the trips in the Lancasters?
PB: Pardon?
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back from Italy?
PB: Yes, yes, yes, and we landed in the UK at, Polebrook, yes, I don’t know how many times oh, er, eight was it, I don't know. Chris, I think is looking now [unclear]?
CA: Yes, at least eighty.
PB: I did several trips, anyway, yes, I remember that we went to see the ruins of Pompeii, John Tid — Tidmarsh and I, yes. While we were there we thought we might as well, yeah, yes, but, very interesting actually, yes, we did behave ourselves and we did realise that the best things to take out were cigarettes and coffee for trading, and er, we could hand those in and bring back jewellery and that sort of stuff, yes, from the Italians, yes, er, quite enjoyable. Chris is looking now in my logbook, which will be scanned presumably? Yes. The length of the time that the trips took, yeah, quite long, yeah, okay.
CH: What happened after you finished doing these trips bringing the prisoners back?
PB: That was it for the time being, erm, I was posted then to, out to Transport Command for a little while, and then the air force [background noises] in their wisdom thought [?], in their wisdom, sent me out to Southern Rhodesia for two and a half years, er, onto [?] the navigation training school, flying Ansons, where I had a marvellous time [laughs] I really did, I thoroughly enjoyed it, you know, there were no tourists, the game was wonderful, it really was, marvellous place. We went to Victoria Falls and that sort of thing, er, saw the whole of the country at low level 'cause we were flying Ansons, and the navigators for their passing out trip, we took 'em down to Cape Town and back again, and after two and a half years I came home, and I decided to stay in the Air Force and rejoin Bomber Command, and, they’d got Lincolns then, so I was back on the old Lincolns and posted to Wyton and I was waiting there when of course the atom bomb came in, and the old Lincoln, I’m afraid, wasn’t big enough. So we borrowed some B29s from the Americans, the air force called them the Washington, and er, we converted from the Lincoln to the Washington, and that’s where we ended up at, Coningsby er, on the B29 or the Lincoln, and that’s where I was for quite a while until I think that I moved around a bit, on coastal, I think that, I spent a —a little time converting, then I was posted out to Malta and did a tour out there, with my good lady [laughs]. The Cyprus problem blew up — [interruption]
CH: That's —
AB: And, we were doing trips from Malta to Cyprus, once round the island and back, sixteen hours [laughs] rather tiring, so they decided to send us out to Cyprus and, camp on the edge of the airfield instead, so we could do shorter trips. So, we ended up camping on Cyprus for a bit until it was [laughs], time for us to come home, which we did in nineteen, ooh, was that sixty we came home?
AB: I think so.
PB: Yes, something like that, and I was [pause] posted back up to, Coningsby I think.
AB: Topcliffe.
PB: Yeah, oh, Topcliffe one or the other, yes, and er, after that they sent me back to, Bomber, where I converted on to the Vulcan eventually, that’s where we stayed did we not? Yes, I think so. Yes, they, the Cypriots had taken the [background noises] the explosives in a sandwich — in a sandwich tin, just in it, just in between two pieces of bread and they put 'em on the hinges of the aeroplane and blew the wing off, yes, the pilots didn’t like it, no, weren’t too keen on that. So, they put closer guards on the aeroplanes, that’s the only thing they could do [background noises].
CH: What year was this?
PB: Yes.
CH: What year?
PB: Erm, gosh, what year was Cyprus Chris? It’s in there, when we're doing the Cypriot runs. Five, yeah, it’ll be listed there. [pause] 'Cause they were gun running as well, that’s what we were doing there [?] just trying to pick up the gun runners at night [background noises].
[inaudible]
CH: I'll pause that. What were you saying about the Cypriots?
PB: They were very clever in the way they smuggled their weapons and stuff in, that’s why we were doing these orbits around Cyprus at night to try and catch the boats, the little boats they used to get weapons over, and explosives and that sort of stuff, yeah.
CH: Was this the time of EOKA?
PB: Yes, exactly, yes, yes. [pause] I think it was eighty something, yes.
CH: That would have been in the fifties, nineteen fifties.
PB: Yes, that’s it [indistinct]. But I moved over onto the Vulcan, 'cause we went off to Finningley for our conversion and I’d only flown on piston aircraft, piston air, and I sat in this, monster and he said, er, ‘opening the throttles, full throttle’, whump, and I found myself up over my seat and I thought, good grief, [laughs], and I, I got the instruments in front of me 'cause we’d got an altimeter and an airspeed indicator, and he shot down the runway and I watched the altimeter go like that [laughs], winding upwards [laughs]. I’m not in a fighter but a fantastic performance, it really was, but I did get used to it of course, in the end, but, one or two of the blokes I flew with like Dave Thomas and, and Andy, could really handle a Vulcan well. Dave Thomas, when we’d, we'd done a display, we were coming home one Sunday and he said, ‘Do you mind if I try and roll it?’ and I said, ‘Well, I don’t see any reason why you shouldn’t Dave’, and he did a roll and my desk lid lifted about half an inch and went down again, that’s all I knew, but somebody on the ground saw him, reported it to 1 Group Headquarters, and we were all summoned to see the AOC [laughs] 'cause we were both squadron leaders and he gave us both a right rollicking, and he said, ‘Don’t ever do that again’, [emphasis] well he said, ‘If you do don’t let anybody see you’, [laughs] ‘And would you like to stay for lunch’, [laughter] so he wasn’t really annoyed [laughs], but. Ah, ha, but, we did have some fun in the Vulcan one way and another [pause]. Ah. When we were training we were given a weekend off and, mother was always very pleased because we got a special, ration for aircrew and it added to her points, I think it doubled them just about and of course we got a free railway warrant, so I used to always, um, ask for a one to Birmingham and I used to exit at New Street station which was open and then catch the bus home, and that way I ended up with a few free tickets, you see, that I, I could use later on, which I did and during the war, yes it was very handy, but , yes every six weeks we were sent, to, to clear off and have a rest, eh, because we never knew but the sky over Britain was, must have been full of aeroplanes at night, that we didn’t know about, there was no radar cover, nothing like that, you just flew and fingers crossed, hope for the best that you saw everybody else, eh, fortunately we survived, no problems [laughs].
CH: Did you keep in contact with any of your crew that you flew with in the war?
PB: Yes, yes, eh, I haven’t contacted Henry, I did John Tidmarsh for a little while, I’ve lost contact with him.
AB: Johnny, Johnny King.
PB: Yes, but , Johnny King that, flew with since the war, yes, still in contact with him, he's in Canada but, we're in regular contact, yes, we flew together on, on Lincolns, yes, in fact he was a flight engineer and then, changed to pilot, trained to be a pilot, yeah.
AB: Lorenzo, Lorenzo.
PB: Yes, eh, anything else I’ve forgotten?
AB: Lorenzo.
PB: Oh yes, I kept in contact with Keith but he’s dead now of course, passed away.
AB: The Canadian ones, we’ve been over to Canada and stayed with them.
PB: But, [interrupted].
CH: Were there Canadians in your crew?
PB: Er, no, no there was, one Irish and the other one was a Londoner, the two gunners, yeah, one London, one Irish and one London. Paddy Mack [?], he was the rear gunner and there’s a little London fella, I can’t remember his name is the mid upper gunner, and I was the reserve gunner if necessary [laughs] but, I was never used [pause]. I think that’s about all I can remember, apart from the fact that flying was always cold, very, very cold [emphasis]. The only warm place in the Lancaster was in my position in fact, er, that wasn’t too bad, but the rest of them the Anson and the Wellington were perishing [laughs]. You used to wear as much clothing as we could to keep warm and you could hear the gunner in the back cracking the ice in his oxygen mask [laughs], crunching away [laughs], [coughs] but eh, you learn to live with these things [pause]. On Vulcans, Andy Milne and er, the rest of them [interrupted]
AB: Dave Thomas.
PB: Yes, but I think Andy Milne [interrupted]
AB: Jerry Strange.
PB: Was the best, 'cause we, we went on the bombing competition twice so we must have been pretty good [interrupted]
AB: And won, each time.
PB: But eh, yes, we beat the Americans at one stage but er, out in Barksdale, they didn’t like that very much [laughs], poor old, but they’ve been very good to us the Yanks I must admit, yes, um, but yes that was, that was a very good crew I must admit and we, we're still in touch, all of us. Yes, Andy's down in Devon with his own small holding, and, but our co-pilot settled in the Far East, built himself a house [unclear]
[inaudible]
PB: And er, my navigator’s still around, he comes, still comes to the meetings occasionally [pause] but, trying to think that’s, that’s about the limit of -. 'Course, there was our, my crash in the Vulcan, that was quite interesting [laughs]. Well we got to — went out to fly one day, Flight Lieutenant Galway was the captain at the time and, I was the AEO, Stan Grierson was the co-pilot, and we had, Alan Bowman and, was the radar. Anyway we got, this, almost brand-new Vulcan, it had got about ten hours on the air frame. Anyway, climbed on board, and set off and we were flying about an hour, when Ivor said, ‘The hydraulic pressure's reading zero’, I said, ‘Well tap the gauge Ivor, you know, use the old knuckle’, [laughs] he tapped it, wouldn’t come back you know, I said oh, ‘Hang on then I’ll see if it’ll move my,’ got a little scoop on the rover gas turbine in the wing, a little motor, I put my switch on and off, didn’t move, I said, ‘This looks ominous Ivor, it looks to me as if we’ve lost all our hydraulic pressure’, ‘But we’ve got air, we’ve got air, yes, have no fear, we’ll go back and use the air,’ he says, 'Okay, right', so we, we came back to base and um, burnt off a bit of fuel, you know as much as we could and then he said, ‘Right selecting emergency air, undercarriage down,’ down it went, bang’ [emphasis]. Two greens, one red. Oh dear, [sigh] ‘Which is the one?’ he said, ‘It’s the starboard wing, port undercarriage has not gone down and locked’. Now that’s bad, you can’t do anything about that at all. ‘I’ll check the electrics just to make sure that it’s not a fuse’, it wasn’t. So, he said, ‘Well , what about bailing out?’ I said, ‘Bailing out!, the nose wheels down', I said, 'I’ll go sliding out and the first thing I’m going to hit is the nose wheel,’ I said, I’m not too keen on that Ivor, if you don’t mind,’ I said, ‘The navigator and the radar might want to have a go?’ but, he looked at me and said, ‘No sir, I said, ‘What are you going to do Ivor?’, he said, ‘Well, I’m going to land her’, he said, ‘I’m going to try and land’, I said, ‘Well I'm, you are going to have two, three passengers on board as well, so to make sure you don’t clear off we’ll keep the safety pins in the seats all right, if you don’t mind, so you don’t accidently pull those handles and disappear,’ [laughs] he said, ‘Right oh,’ he said, I said, ‘Well, shall we prepare for a crash landing,’ he said, ‘That’s a good idea,’ so, we went through the drill, he said, ‘What we’ll do, we’ll pull the handle, get rid of the canopy, so that we can get out of the top at the front if anything happens,’ you know, that, and he said, ‘We'll, we’ll try.’ So he, he did a roller and it held up, but eh, and we went round again, came in, he said, ‘Well, here we go, hang on fellas.’ And eh, as he lowered the wing, bump [emphasis] down it went, straight onto the ground [laughs]. Round we went, twice [laughs]. We came to a halt about twenty yards from another Vulcan [laughs]. The bottom, our exit was okay, it was clear, actually, we could get out and the aero, the aeroplane was still upright, there was enough room for us to get out and clear off, which we did, as quickly as possible [laughs]. The aeroplanes left there with its wing on the ground, eh, yeh, a complete failure of the down leg had cracked [whispering], split, and all the hydraulic fluid had vented [?] to air. Nothing you could do about it [background noises].
CH: Let’s just pause this.
[interview paused]
PB: Crash landed twice in Rhodesia, [laughs] flying along and the pilot [background noises] said to me, ‘The controls have jammed,’ he said, ‘I can’t move the control column Phil, [background noises] can you come and give me a hand up here?’ I did, we couldn’t shift it at all, we were in a steady slow climb, so he said, ‘[unclear] I'm going to wind full nose trim on, we’ll go down and look for somewhere flat’ [laughs]. Which is what he did, [laughs] we did a very slow descent, we got two nav- cadets on board and I said, ‘Get in your crash landing position, it might be a bit bumpy when we land,’ but they [unclear] were very good you know, straight in, bent the props back and all the rest of it, chopped the ground up a bit, but er, opened the back door and the two lads jumped out, not even a bruise, yeah, yes. A clapped out old Anson you see, the control cables had dropped through the guides and jammed, you couldn’t move 'em, but there we are [laughs]. These are little things you’ve got to be ready for [laughs]. Yes, I had a time when I had to fly the aeroplane back when the pilot fell asleep, as well, poor [unclear] Freddy [laughs]. I said, ‘Fred, [laughs] we need to go back to base Fred’, [laughs] Fred Holloway, ‘What you say Phil?’ [laughs]. I said, ‘One eighty and head for Thornhill Freddy,’ [emphasis] [laughs] ‘oh, you’ll have to do it Phil’, I said, ‘Oh, crikey, I’ve not done this before Freddy,’ [laughs] ‘Nothing to it,’ he said, ‘Just keep it steady,’ he was right, you know I just [laughs], half an hour we were back over the top and he was awake by this stage. I said, ‘Do you think you could land it Freddy?’ oh, got the goose necks out there they are, I could see them, oh, he managed it. Ah, he’d been flying continually for, I think it was a week we’d been doing night flying and without any rest, or something like that, he’d overdone it [pause] yes, right oh, [pause] yes. Well the, the trips to the Congo were, well the Russians packed it in, they wouldn’t go, they, they’d got their aircraft out there, but , they said it was too dangerous, apparently. The weather was always icy [unclear], you know, going through the front but, we just, filled the old Hastings up with their soldiers and off we went and did it, but , we managed to get there and back okay.
CH: What was it that you were doing in the Congo?
PB: Ferrying the United Nations troops from, Nigeria and Ghana into the Congo to, as a peacekeeping — peacekeeping force really, because there were, having a, a dreadful war out there, Katanga, and political as well. They were slaughtering each other left, right and centre, as they do, out there, and so that’s what we were doing, ferrying the troops back and forth [pause]. RAF Transport Command, the black people saw 'em and thought they were commandos, that we were ferrying commandos in to attack them. And eh, we had to go through Leopoldville, which every time we went through, this chap in his ragged [unclear] came out with his hand, wanting so many thousand dollars so that we could go through and get into the Congo proper, where we wanted to be, and, I've forgotten how many thousand dollars we had to hand over, and if you didn’t they set up a light machine gun and trained it on the aeroplane, [laughs] so we paid [laughs]. Yes, we had to put on our United Nations hats, be part of the United Nations force, as opposed to the Royal Air Force [pause].
AB: I don’t know I didn’t hear what she said either Phil.
PB: Eh [unclear] yes, but , yes, yes, you never know — know when you were going to get through or not, that was the trouble, they tried to pull us back once because they thought we’d got the Prime Minister on board, they thought he was, the, the Prime Minister that had been giving them all the trouble, they thought we’d kidnapped him and we were taking him away [laughs] and they said, you must return to Leopoldville immediately, but er oh, it was old Bill Corker[?] who was flying, he says, ‘Tell 'em not bloody likely,’ [laughs] he said, ‘We’re going back to Accra as fast as we can [laughs] and we're not going back to Leopoldville, thank you’ [laughs]. Yes, that was their, the, the biggest problems were handling these people properly, so they could be very tricky these, black politicians. I’ve forgotten what his name was now but he was, [background noises] he caused a lot of trouble out there [pause], 'cause they’re all starving, and, we gave them all our food, all of us [unclear], as much as we could [pause].
AB: And this is one of the letters from the one he's talking about.
PB: Yes [unclear].
AB: Because they used to write regularly to us, letting us know what was going on in the other, the half and I just thought there might be something in here, erm, well there is about killing two Europeans before they got off, before we let you go we are going to kill two Europeans. I’d have to go through the whole of the letter for. I think they're the only two letters we kept, we had piles of them, didn’t we? [pause]. Yes, why I brought that out that was to show you that that’s how we used to communicate.
PB: I remember that, that’s the first time I saw Dennis’s name in, in print after he was , in the chapter called, “Men Like These”, yeah.
AB: Yes, it is only a small part of it, but I just thought that you would be interested, you know, because a lot of it happened in the era that you don’t remember. But, I think maybe David’s got the book.
PB: Oh yes, possibly yes, the one with the red cover, yeah, yes, bit tatty but , yes, yes it was a good book, yes.
AB: Any book that’s got a bit about the family in it, is good [laughs].
PB: I’m sixty, four, forty, KCs, but, as I say the aircrew of course, treat these things with er, well I, I can’t say it really, because its racist but er, [laughter] ‘Hello, hello darkies speak to me you black’ [laughs] and such like, as aircrew a lot, but, bit like that I’m afraid [laughs]. But, er, he’d never heard of it he said, but I said, 'Oh I can assure you it was an emergency [unclear] system during World War Two'.
AB: I know this has only got to do with [unclear].
CA: Not to mention the high jinks you got up to after a dining in night, and you decided to drive down to London to see the Queen, in a sports car, four of you, do you remember that?
AB: I remember them going, yeah. I remember them coming home [laughs] yeah, but that, is that the sort of thing you also want to know about?
PB: What's that?
AB: When you and, erm, what’s his name, all climbed into his sports car to go to visit his auntie, in London.
PB: In Mayfair.
AB: You and?
PB: Stan Grierson.
AB: And Ivor Galway.
PB: And Ivor Galway.
AB: All in their mess kit.
PB: Yes, not, not the best thing to do.
CA: Not having [?] imbibed a certain amount of alcohol?
PB: Weren’t in our right senses, no. ‘We’ll go and see my aunt, she lives in Mayfair [interrupted].
AB: This is from Cottesmore [unclear].
PB: 'She’s got a very nice flat’. ‘Okay Stan, yes, let’s go’. We get the car [laughs] oh dear.
AB: Carry on love.
PB: Yes, then all the wives panic, ‘Where’s my husband gone?’ [laughs]. ‘Don’t know, haven’t the faintest idea?’ We were on our way home, safe and sound.
AB: Yes, all of us were ringing each other up, the wives, to find out, is he home yet, to [unclear], Ivor’s wife, ‘No he’s not home yet, haven’t heard from him’, 'Haven’t you heard from them?’ ‘No.’ They were in London, in their mess kit, all in one sports car, they'd stayed the night, had their breakfast with auntie and then set off to come home. Arrived home at, oh I don’t know, maybe eleven o’clock, eleven am, to irate wives as you can well imagine, having been, been one [laughs]. Go on carry on, what happened then?
PB: Well, that was it wasn’t it, young and irresponsible, absolutely, totally irresponsible.
CA: As children, we were told you’d gone to see the Queen.
AB: Yes [laughs].
PB: Especially for a mature gentleman like you, yes.
AB: Well, you were the oldest member of the crew, you were the responsible one, all the others were young.
PB: Yes exactly, yes, I was the leader, yeah, yeah.
AB: I mean what a thing to do after a dining in night, you'll know about the dining in nights and how they, raucous they can get. Let’s go to London and see the Queen.
PB: It seemed a good idea at the time, yes, yes [laughs].
AB: You can imagine them arriving in London can’t you, all in their mess kit [pause]. Auntie didn’t turn a hair, did she?
PB: No.
AB: Gave them breakfast and sent them on their way [laughs].
PB: Yes, she did have a very nice flat, in Mayfair.
AB: It’s a pity those sort of things can’t come in the thing, 'cause they are hilarious, you know, but erm, what else did you do?
PB: Oh well, I’ve always been a good fellow you know that, I haven’t done anything.
AB: What about the ones in Nottingham? Auntie, in Nottingham, and Fosco?
PB: [laughs] Yes.
AB: I think we wives could write a book.
PB: Yes, come home, all is forgiven, Mother Vallance [laughs].
AB: This was, shall I carry on with it? This was one, one of the young men was, was violently sick when they went to stay in this house in Nottingham where they all used to go if they couldn’t get home 'cause the last bus went at seven o’clock at night, I mean, ridiculous really, so they used to go and stay, and he was very sick in the bedroom and he didn’t tell any of the crew, 'til he got home, and of course, she, the landlady went up and found all this, and she, she eh, was furious obviously. They all sent her a bunch of flowers and a letter saying, you know, we are sorry about this, and she wrote a letter back saying, all is forgiven, come home, love Mother Vallance [laughter]. 'Cause, this is when they were all at Coningsby.
PB: [laughs].
AB: But there’s lots of little stories like that, you know, that don’t come under the terms of flying, you know, but I think we should do a book on what the wives remember [laughs].
PB: Yes.
AB: Anymore?
PB: No, he’s still going strong, isn’t he Fosco?
AB: Yes, the one who was sick, he must be about, they were, they were all probably five or six years younger than Phil, he was the oldest member of the crew, erm, so he will probably be in his early eighties.
PB: Yes.
AB: Still lives at Coningsby. It's funny thinking about them all now, you know, it —
PB: Yes.
AB: 'Cause, Ivor Galway, the pilot of the plane that crashed, he used to live at Woodhall Spa.
PB: Yes ah.
AB: She had an unhappy end didn't she, committed suicide, a lot of the wives couldn’t take the pressures, as they were in those days, you know, the bomb and what not, you know. You, you never knew when they were called out on a QRA, does your husband, still do, is he still in the air force?
CH: No, it’s my son.
AB: Pardon?
CH: My son.
AB: Oh son. So, he would still do QRAs, rushed out in the middle of the night.
PB: Yes, that’s right.
AB: A lot of funny stories about QRAs and being called out.
PB: We used to wait for the call, ‘Attention, attention, this is the bomber controller for Waddington QRA only, readiness zero two is now in force’, and jumped in the car and straight out to the aeroplane and fire it up and get ready. That’s what they used to do [pause].
AB: It’s alright, that’s just a little passage, from the book. They arrived at the door in their flying kit having been brought home by bus because they were all, you know, a bit shaken.
PB: The MO thought we were all shook up, he said 'Go home', yes, I said 'I’m not shook up'.
AB: And we didn’t care less anyway we were, we were too busy with our sherry [laughs].
PB: Yes.
[laughter]
PB: Yes, QRA was a bit of, bit of a, bit of a bind but eh — [interrupted].
AB: And your son will know all about that if he, do they still do QRAs?
PB: Yes, well I suppose they do really eh, sleep in your kit and er, be ready to go eh, at a moment’s notice and it was eh, sort of broken sleep, that sort of thing, mind you at the same time, the food in the aircrew feeder was excellent eh, 'cause we had our own little restaurant, yes, but , [coughs] and of course, you could probably go a couple of nights without being called at all, and then suddenly, you know ‘Attention, attention, this is the bomber controller,’ and eh, and off you’d go, but, but you took your turn, you weren’t on it all the time [pause].
AB: Can I speak [whispered]. 'Cause that’s how a lot of the wives couldn’t cope because they never knew when they were called out on QRA, where they were going and what they were going to do. They could have been called to Russia and when they've passed a certain boundary time, place, they can’t turn round and come home again, they have to keep going, and a lot of the wives, lot of the wives could not cope with this, not knowing when their husbands went out on a QRA call, whether they were coming home or not.
PB: Yes.
AB: Especially the ones who were called out on the, the last, the Falkland do.
PB: Yes.
AB: They actually all wrote letters to their wives because once they got out they wouldn't have been able to turn round and come back.
PB: I think the really serious one was the missile crisis with Russia, you know, with the ships eh, going to Cuba, and J F Kennedy was the really serious one [pause]. That’s where — where we were on full alert, ready, ready to go, actually. Not that anyone wants to 'cause you know well that, there'd be nothing to come back to, if it ever happens, that’s why we want to stop these missiles spreading, it’s very difficult to do but we must try our best.
[laughter]
CH: I shall end that there. Thank you very, very, much Phil.
PB: Yes [laughs].
CH: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Philip Batty
Description
An account of the resource
Philip Batty grew up in Walsall. He discusses the death of his older brother Dennis, a wireless operator with 226 Squadron, early in the Second World War. Philip volunteered for aircrew. After training, he was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate as a wireless operator/ air gunner in May 1945. He was involved in Operation Dodge and United Nations peacekeeping in the Congo. He worked in Rhodesia and Cyprus and survived crash landings in a Vulcan and an Anson. He reminiscences about work colleagues and tells some humorous stories relating to his career in the Royal Air Force, which spanned 40 years.
Creator
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Cathie Hewitt
Date
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2016-10-14
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Janet McGreevy
Format
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01:02:22 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABattyPH161014
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Zimbabwe
Cyprus
Cuba
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1945-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
226 Squadron
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Battle
Blenheim
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Medal
Initial Training Wing
killed in action
Lancaster
Lincoln
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridlington
RAF Coningsby
RAF Madley
RAF Sturgate
RAF Wattisham
RAF Wyton
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27255/AOtteyRA200807.2.mp3
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Title
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Ottey, Ralph Alfrado
R A Ottey
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2020-08-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Ottey, RA
Description
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Four items. Three oral history interviews with Ralph Ottey (b. 1924) and a photograph. He was born in Jamaica and volunteered for the RAF. After training in the UK, he served as a driver with 617 Squadron at RAF Coningsby and RAF Woodhall Spa.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HH: Okay. Today is the 7th of August 2020. I’m Heather Hughes for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive and I’m in Boston to talk to Ralph Ottey, a veteran of Bomber Command. RAF Bomber Command. Ralph, thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview. it's very exciting to have met you. Can, for the purposes of this interview would, would it be possible to talk us, to talk a little bit about your early life in Little London, Jamaica and then we'll come on to talking about your experiences during the Second World War serving with RAF Bomber Command and then we'll talk a little bit as well afterwards about how you came to come back to Boston and how come you are still here.
RO: Yeah, yeah.
HH: Okay.
RO: That’s fine.
HH: So tell us about your early life in Boston.
RO: Yes, well —
HH: In Jamaica.
RA: I was, well christened Ralph Alfredo Ottey. Really after my grandfather who was Ralph James Ottey. That's how. I was born in the little village of Little London in Westmoreland, Jamaica. British West Indies. Yeah. On the 17th of February 1924. I went to an elementary school in Little London. A Wesleyan Methodist Church School. And my, I was brought up by my grandparents Ephraim and Sierra Williams who were both prominent members of the church. I did fairly well at school and all the prospects were for me to become a teacher. I had, you had to pass an examination in Jamaica at that time called the Third Year Examination and then you can then apply to go to get a place at Mico College. The only training school for teachers, male teachers in Jamaica at that time. It is now a university.
HH: Is that in Kingston?
RA: That is. That is in Kingston. Which is a hundred and fifty miles away from. At that time it would be like fifteen million miles away from Little London to King, to Kingston. However, due certain circumstances at sixteen and a half I left the school. I passed my, what you call the third year Jamaican exam which gave me the right to apply for a place at Mico. But you couldn't get into Mico until you were nineteen. So I had two and a half years to read up. But then I was a, I was a pupil teacher being paid by the school thirteen shillings and four pence per week [laughs] That was. That was my pay that. Yeah. However, I left. I left there because I went to go to work for my uncle who had a bakery in Savanna-la-Mar. Savanna-la-Mar is the capital town of the parish of Westmoreland and my family is a very, quite dutiful family in, in Savanna-la-Mar. The first mayor of Savanna-la-Mar was an Ottey. Uncle Guy Ottey. So I was well, so I went to work for my Uncle Guy and I worked for, that was 19’ nearly the end of 1940. I was just over sixteen years old and, and I stayed with him for two years. But I always — they, they always want me to be this teacher but at the back of my mind what I wanted was to be a air gunner in an aeroplane. To shoot the Germans down. That’s, that’s all I wanted.
HH: Why?
RA: Well, because of Churchill. I used to know all of Churchill’s speeches. I, oh I managed the war with Churchill. I was disappointed when he didn’t consult me about these things that I had [laughs] And that was my thing in life. They were planning for me to become a teacher and so on. What I wanted was to be in the war. To be flying in an aeroplane shooting down Germans who were bombing London, you see. That was my life.
HH: It's, it's so interesting that you wanted to fly and in a, in an aircraft —
RA: Yeah.
HH: Shooting down Germans rather than, for example being at sea or in the army. Was there something very specific about the RAF?
RA: Special. The RAF was my thing because my father used to say to me, ‘Now, if you want to help in the war why don't you join the Jamaica Military Artillery?’ He said, ‘You have big guns and you're not even seeing the enemy. That's what you should be doing. Why you want to — ’ And I just treat it as a joke because the old man’s idea to be behind this machine gun shooting down Germans. Especially 1940 when the Battle of Britain, you see. That's what I, that was my motive. So I stayed with, I stayed with my uncle for two years. 1942. Then my father who was working with ESSO because the Americans had acquired a right to build bases in Jamaica and they were building a base near Kingston and my father was working for this big oil company and he got me a job with the base. The Jamaica base contractors. That lasted for about six, seven months when they finished building the runways so they laid off people and so and so . I went back to, to Little London because where the base was built was a hundred miles from Little London. So I went back to my grandparents in Little London in 19,’ at the beginning of 1943 and I got a job as a clerk in the local covered market. I used to go around and give people tickets and collect up money. And I, but my thing was the RAF, you see. It never never far away from me. Then suddenly, you know, yes they had a Census. 19’. A National Census in Jamaica in 1943. And I became a census enumerator so some of those stories about Little London I gained by going around doing the Census. So I know all the villages and the people in the villages and so and so. So I did. I did that and then I got, in 1943 [pause] yeah, that's right. I finished up 1943 then I went back to [pause] back to my uncle in Savanna-la-Mar. And I wasn't there very long when there was a notice in the [pause] the, the RAF was recruiting. That was interesting so I applied. I went. Took the exam. Didn't hear anything. Didn't, didn't hear anything from them for months. Then suddenly they said, ‘Come and sit the exam.’ So I went and sat the exams. Then like everything I didn't hear anything from them for a long time. Then suddenly they said, ‘Oh, well we're ready for you now. You have to come and take — ’ I passed the exam because I had to take a proper exam to get in the RAF. Did you know, not just for flying. You had to —
HH: Yeah.
RO: You took the RAF test, you see. So when, when this call came I went took the exam yes let's, got, got through that. And suddenly they say, ‘Oh, yes we want you.’ So we, I it went to another base in Jamaica which was a naval base at Port Royal which was a RAF camp on that base at that time. And I took the physical. Got through. Got through that all right and was given the RAF number, so and I I, they ask you, ‘What would you like to do?’ You know. So, of course, I said, ‘Oh, I want to be [pause] to shoot Germans down.’ Well, they say, ‘Oh, well you know,’ they said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you something. They said, ‘Your English is quite good so we'll put you down to be called a wireless operator/air gunner.’ Just the job as I thought. So I was signed up in the RAF to be trained as a wireless operator/air gunner and waited for a few months. Then they said, ‘Oh yes. We're ready for you now to go to England.’ So we, in the middle of the night they wake us up, put us on a boat and we went to a camp called Camp Patrick Henry in Virginia. American camp. The first time in my life I ever had anything to do with segregation because on this camp, a massive camp at a place called [pause] Oh God I forget the name of it. A camp. Camp Patrick Henry after the great American. Camp Patrick Henry in Virginia. And we stayed here for a few, a few weeks. And then suddenly we were based. We went on the biggest convoy. We went up to New York to catch a ship there and we went up [pause] I think we went on a ship that finished up. The Esperance Bay. Something like that they called it. We finish up being on this boat on the first convoy to come back to come to arrive in England during the, the invasion of France. While we were at sea the invasion took place. And this a massive convoy. Every day you're crossing the North Atlantic. Every day you are at the same place just surrounded by ships and you have their practicing shooting. And I I was very interested in the guns. Firing and so on. But one of the interesting things was, oh when you're young you do not, you're not bright enough to um to sense danger. We were at the bottom of the ship you see and at night they used to lock us in because we were untrained, you see. And if there was any possibility of people getting off, the people who were trained were [pause ] but we, we didn't, didn't worry one bit. Yeah. I think all that would happen to somebody else it wouldn’t happen to me. So it did. It didn’t happen. Never happened to us. We arrived at Liverpool and the first happy thing that really happened was that we were the only, we were the ship where the British servicemen were on [pause] most of them was Americans you see. These massive convoys. So they made the way to the port of Liverpool for British servicemen took off. So we were the first ship to dock at Liverpool.
HH: Great.
RA: That, and when we got there we were met by a Jamaican admiral. Admiral Sir Arthur Bromley, I always remember he was born as an Englishman born in Trinidad and he came, and I and remember the first thing he said to us, he said, ‘Is George Hadley with you?’ Because George Hadley was a great cricketer. I’ll always remember that. Oh, ‘Is George Hadley with you?’ But George Hadley was elsewhere. So we got off the ship and we're not supposed to know where we were going you see. But somehow the grapevine said you're going to Yorkshire. Right. So there was no we went through these stations and so on. There's no names on the stations. That kind of thing. So we finish up at a place called Filey, in Yorkshire. RAF training school. So we went to Filey and we spent thirteen, thirteen weeks being trained there. Doing the military training thirteen weeks.
HH: Were most of the people at Filey from um the Caribbean? Were there other people as well at Filey?
RA: Oh yes. Oh yes. There were lots of Jamaicans who and, and from other places. British Guyana there.
HH: Okay.
RA: And Trinidad. And we were West Indians. Yeah. And so we went to, we went to Filey and we were in, had another interview all over again. And this, I sat down with various officers so now, ‘I see you, you, you want to, you’re down here to be, you’re gunner and wireless operator.’ I say, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Well, unfortunately the way the war is going we don't, we don't have that kind of job anymore. You're either you're either an air gunner or you're a wireless operator. But we have plenty of, we have plenty of those. But what, seeing as your English is,’ that’s what I said to him. He said, ‘Seeing that your English is quite good I think they way you can serve best is you could be a motor transport driver.’ So you know that was it. Well, I’m in the service.
HH: Were you disappointed?
RA: I had to do what — eh? What?
HH: Were you disappointed?
RA: Oh course. Very disappointed. I mean.
HH: But it probably, it probably meant that you would survive the war.
Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. I I wanted to be in the thick of, in the thick of it so [pause] but of course then I took the oath so there I couldn’t say to this officer, ‘I’m not going to do that.’ He said, ‘That's what you, what you serve. You'll be good at that. So you will be good at, you’ll be good at this. We, we, we need people who, with good English.’ So they were, we did thirteen weeks.
HH: At Filey.
RA: At Filey. And on the passing out one of the people who, West Indian notables who came you know how later on. Yes. I was, because I didn’t keep my mouth shut I was part of the guard of honour. And how this thing happened was this, this sergeant who was training us saying to us that, ‘We are going to have, in the passing out there will be Colonel's Oliver Stanley who is your Colonial Secretary will be coming.’ And I said to him, ‘Well, corporal he isn't our Colonial Secretary. He is the Colonial Secretary.’ ‘Ah.’ So he said, oh he called me mister, he said, ‘Oh. Oh, Mr Ottey,’ he said, ‘Oh, since that you're so you're right but seeing that you're so bloody clever you will be on the guard of honour.’ Which meant a lot of extra training to be, so I realised that , to keep your mouth shut up.
HH: Yeah.
RA: So I was on the guard of honour to meet Colonel Oliver Stanley, the Colonial Secretary. And they were suddenly in the line Louis Constantine was one of the West Indian notables Again, I don't know why to me. He came and spoke to me. He came and spoke to me. He asked me where I was from. Jamaica sir He said, ‘Who brought you up?’ You know. Who? Your family. I said, ‘I was brought up by my grandparents in a little place called Little London.’ And so he said to me, he says, ‘You'll be spending a lot of time in England. He said, 'The English people are very fair,’ he says, ‘And I’m telling you this as one who have taken a hotel who put a colour bar on me because they had Americans there. And I’m telling you that if you, if you behave in England as you behave in the village where you come from, where your uncles and aunties are there you'll be quite alright in England,’ he said, ‘Because,’ he said, ‘English people are fair.’ He said, ‘Whatever happened they are fair-minded so you just do that. Just behave as if you're in the village and your uncle and grandfather also are there.’
HH: And did you? Was that your experience? Is that? Did — was that your experience?
RO: Yes. You see that, that's what he, that's what he, he said to me and so I always remember, I remember that that that I should don't get excited about what's going on. ‘Just behave as you would in Little London.’ He said, ‘Respect elders,’ because you had to in Little London. Respect elders and and so on. So you're a part of it. So that's what, that's what I did and as, as great fortune will fall on somebody I came down to the village from Filey into the town. It was a holiday place and I was in a café, in a little cafe and a little girl [pause] she was about, she was nine years old at the time came up to me and said, would, have I any foreign stamps? She said, she said she was a philatelist or something. This big word and I didn't know what it was really. She was a stamp collector. And had I any foreign stamps? You see. So I said, ‘Well, I haven't. I've got some at the camp because I have letters waiting for me.’ When I get on with the other boys. I said, ‘Well I haven't got any handy but I have some at the camp and I have people in my billet who have at the same. So I will get them for you. When are you going?’ I said. ‘Oh, we are here for a fortnight,’ she said. ‘Anytime you come,’ So I said, ‘Well, next time I'll be able to come out would be — ‘’ at such and such a time and we'll meet. So she took me over to meet her parents. Arthur [pause] Arthur and Lillian Pearce from Scunthorpe. Right. So I met them and I brought the stamps and we had a chat and they invited me to have a cup of tea with them and so on. Then just before, just before she says, ‘Have you,’ Aunt Lil said, ‘Have you, have you any family in England?’ I said, ‘Oh no.’ She said, ‘Well, we’re making you an offer, she says. Why don't you have us as your family and you cannot always come at 157 Cliff Garden, Scunthorpe to spend your holidays.
HH: Lovely.
RA: So from there we get Uncle Arthur and Aunt Lil and this little girl Pat. They called me family. That's where, when I got married they acted as my parents and we —
HH: Did you get married near Scunthorpe?
RA: I got married in Scunthorpe but that's a a later story.
HH: Yeah.
RA: And I I of course I left Filey. Passed out. I didn’t, I expected that I would do, do well at shooting because I loved it but I didn't do as well as I, that I thought I'd get a prize but I didn’t. I was disappointed because I thought I did fairly well but there were chaps who were better. Much better than me. So I left. I left Filey. Yes. I did. I put a story in I didn’t tell you. I missed that, that. They had an exhibition. A West Indian, a West Indian painting exhibition in Sheffield and there again I was part of the guard of honour.
HH: So you got to go to Sheffield.
RA: I went to Sheffield. Marched through the town to the, this Cutlery Hall where we met the Lord Mayor and had, and had something called Yorkshire pudding. Which was a bit disappointing because I was waiting to have a pudding. I was ready to have a pudding and it didn’t turn up. This was a little thing that was [laughs] But anyway we marched through the city and met the Lord Mayor and so on. Went to this exhibition thing. Then I got posted to a place called Little Rissington in Gloucestershire.
HH: Now, in your, in your in your memoir, “Stranger Boy,” you talk about how a corporal accompanied you to Little Rissington.
RA: Yes.
HH: Why was that? Because normally when you were posted somewhere else you were just told to get there on, on your own. But you were accompanied by a corporal.
RA: We, I was taken to um, to this place by, but it was, it was the usual RAF thing, or service thing. He lived around that place. So it was a perk for him to escort us. So he was —
HH: Okay.
RA: He got the chance to get home.
HH: Okay.
RA: I know that now. I didn't realize that but he he took us. There was a party of us you see. About six or seven who was sent to Little Rissington, and I spent my time at Little Rissington. Then I went to Blackpool and Blackpool was an exper, was an experience there. Yeah. n So I got I got involved with American colour prejudice for one incident there and I was rescued. I think I was rescued by a Scotsman who, there was about three Americans to me. I was with a girl. I was. I used to meet her. Me and another English chap used to meet this girl and we used to, we were only friends. We used to go to the amusement places and so on but this time this English chap wasn't, wasn't there and these Americans decided that they were going to beat me up you see. And there was this English serviceman who saw what was happening and intervened and said, you know ‘I can't see what your, your own ways but if you're going to get at him you're going to get through me first,’ you know. Like so they backed off. But that was a thing, you see. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
RA: But so I, but I learned something in, in Blackpool. I went, I used to, when we get plenty of, we were billeted you see. we didn’t have camp I used to go in town and I went into a jewellery shop. And this chap was very keen to find out about me you see. Then he said to me, he said that he was Jewish, you see. I’m Jewish.’ And so on. So I said to him, ‘Why is it that people are against Jews? So, he says, ‘It’s a long story.’ I said, ‘In Jamaica Jews are just white rich people and that's all really. They're white. They're rich. That's it.’ And, and he said to me, ‘Well it's a long story,’ he says, ‘It started from ancient times when Christians weren't supposed to be usurers. And most of the people with money and the king's and so on used to have a Jew who he used to borrow money and so on. So he says, ‘We Jews, we built up a, between his good states with the Jews between each other and so we, we got in the business of usury because that Christians would, yeah. And he said, he said that's what the cause of it that that there’s antipathy about Jews really.’ We get into a position where we have handling money.
HH: Yeah.
RA: Yeah. But I mean I didn't know. I didn't know that.
HH: Interesting.
RA: I didn't know about that. So I learned. I learned something. I learned something there.
HH: You did.
RA: After, I I passed out as a driver — they did thirteen weeks, you know.
HH: That was at Blackpool.
RA: No. No. No. Blackpool. I only spent a few weeks at Blackpool.
HH: Okay.
RA: Then they transferred us to number one RAF Transport School down in Wiltshire. Melksham in Wiltshire. And we, I spent thirteen weeks there and I passed out as a AC1 in driving. And I did. I could drive. Name it I could, I could drive it, you see. So I was alright. Then I was transferred. No. I became [pause] I was on my own then. They just, I got my pack and my tickets to turn, to come to RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire. There's nobody taking me there. I had to work myself from from Wiltshire to London to get to that's when I could have done with the help to get on there to go to a place called East —
HH: Kirkby.
RO: East Kirby. It was the nearest, the nearest [pause] No I didn't go to — no to go to Boston. I had to go to. Coningsby. That's right. I got, and I got as far as, I got to London alright and crossed station. Got on the train. Got to Peterborough. Get me get my connection to Boston. I got to, I got to Boston and nearly got into a fight. I got off the train and there wasn't any [pause] there wasn't any any, any trains there. You had to wait for a transport from the camps to take us. So I was in with an older, more experienced airman and he said, ‘Oh well, we’ll go in that pub there and wait ‘til the transport come from the camp at Coningsby.’ So we got in there. As soon as I went in — trouble. There was a chap [pause] spoke to me in Spanish, you see. And I, I said to him in Spanish, the little Spanish I know whatever I said intended I’m a black man. And he got me by the throat. Not being allowed to move. I couldn't understand why. Where? How I said it meant that I, ‘I don't talk to you.’ Which was, all I was trying to tell him that I understand Spanish but I can't have a conver, I wasn't good enough to converse with him, you see. Yeah. But he was, he was going to beat, beat me.
HH: You, were you rescued?
RA: Oh yes. There was another airman there. ‘What do you think you’re doing?’ And that calmed him down. As usual with the RAF I got on the wrong bus. Instead of getting on the bus to Coningsby I got on the bus to East Kirkby. So I got to East Kirkby and they said, ‘You don't belong here mate.’ I can’t do, ‘But It's too late now,’ They fixed me up with a bed and next day they put me on a train and I got to Coningsby. Got to Coningsby. They say, ‘Oh we don’t want you here. You’ve got to go to RAF Tattershall Thorpe which is next door.’ So off I went. Booked in. And so I got through. There's a system where you have to book into the medical. When I finished that I found myself, and acquired a bike because it was a highly dispersed camp so you had to have a bike. So I had a bike. I went to the MT Section to report to the MT Section. And there was a Jamaican there who was at the camp before me and he, he tipped me off. He says, ‘You are the last one who come here so what's going, going to happen? He's going to give you the dirtiest job in, in the section.’ But he said, ‘You want to accept it as if it's a gold mine.’ You say, ‘Yes sergeant.’ You know, ‘Quite all right. No, no problem,’ you know. Truly a [unclear] So the first job I got in the RAF after doing six months of training was to drive the sanitary waggon. So, ‘Yes sergeant. That's quite all right with me.’ You know. So I i I did that for about four weeks. ‘Quite alright.’ Followed what my Jamaican friend tell me to do. Then Sergeant Colwaine said, ‘Hey, I have a job for you.’ Right. ‘Yes sergeant.’ He said, ‘You're going to be the Chauffeur for the senior armament officer.’ It’s a gold mine. So I got this job to drive the senior armament officer in 617 Squadron. I was attached. I didn’t know about 617 Squadron then.
HH: When did you? When did you become aware of 617 Squadron’s fame?
RA: It’s when I, when I start working with the squadron. So I became the driver for the senior, the senior armament officer, 617 Squadron.
HH: That's quite a job.
RA: Quite. Well, I thought I was on my feet. Not only that. Because it was a lot of what you call down time I realized that in the air force if you use your [pause] you can get training. So I, I signed up at the college to do book-keeping and accounts because I had a lot of waiting time. I just drive the officer there and wait on him and in that time I’m reading and writing up my answers and so on. So I spent quite a bit of time doing learning about bookkeeping and accountancy while I was driving the, the officer around. Driving all over the place. And then of course I get to know about the aircraft.
HH: Did you ever encounter any of the air crew?
RA: Oh yes. Of course, I met the aircrew. They were fantastic. And some of them was my age. You see I was just twenty. Well, some of them were just twenty. They were lads like me And so I got to know them and I got to go. To get inside the aircraft and know all about.
HH: Did you ever get to fly?
RO: I oh I went on a flight. They encourage you. They encourage you at that time if there's a possibility where they're doing an exercise and if there's a pilot you get a flight, you signed up, so I did. And my why flight was they were going to [pause] they they're doing about they had done the bomb, the raid on the dams already before that. But they used to fly up around Yorkshire, you know. They have some lakes. And they used to. And I went on a flight. But they encourage you. They encourage you to do that if you're ground crew and you're near. They encour, they used to encourage you to to, to get at it.
HH: To experience it.
RO: Yeah. But while I was with the, the squadron I learned a lot about the Royal Air Force because of association. I wrote a lot about it. I learned to respect the Royal Air Force. And the camaraderie, you know, being comrades, and in 617 we always used to you learned that the order of things in life was. There was god almighty. There was Winston Churchill. There was Bomber Harris of Bomber Command. There was Group 5. And 617 Squadron. That was how they drilled it in to you and that's how I lived. So while I was, and while I was attached to the squadron I I other than driving the the chief around, armament officer I did other jobs like, oh I could drive a Coles Crane. I did driving what they called a Queen Mary. Yeah. It's you know those big wings on a bomber. They have a workshop in Lincoln and you had to take them for any repairs to Lincoln. I was good handed I drove a bow, what you call a petrol bowser filling up aircraft. I also drove a [pause] equipment which is a, it's a boat and and a cart. Well, you see they had a bombing range. They had a bombing range.
HH: Close.
RA: Near Wainfleet. And this, this vehicle used to be able to take the targets out and if the tide catched up it became a boat and we've lost one or two where it got caught. Caught out there ready for the tide. Yeah. So I used to, I used to, used to drive that out to take the targets out to and so I had a very wide experience in driving all sorts of motor vehicles. Motor vehicles. Which if you follow my story it, when I finished, when I, you know I’m quoting. Yes. So I spent my time at Coningsby.
HH: [unclear]
RA: No at Tattershall Thorpe. And then when the war finished.
HH: Can I just ask you something about those bomber stations where you were based? Is that again reading your memoir on those years I got the impression that at most of the, of those stations there were quite a few black ground personnel. Was that correct?
RA: Yes.
HH: You know. You know.
RA: Oh yes.
HH: There were quite a lot everywhere.
RA: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. Oh yes. Every station. Every station there was. Yeah. Oh yes but I I I don't know. I was fortunate in that I wasn't moved about. I, I was at Woodhall. What they called RAF Tattershall Thorpe. They call it Woodhall Spa but it was in the air forces as RAF Tattershall Thorpe. And then when, when the war in Europe finished I was still at RAF Tattershall Thorpe but the squadron was going to, 617 Squadron was going to move somewhere down south. I forget the name of the camp but we were going to go to Okinawa. Right. And I was sent on a course of Japanese aircraft rec.
HH: Oh gosh.
RA: At a place called Strubby in Lincolnshire. So I went. I went. I went on that course and while I was at that course they dropped the atom bomb and then I was scrubbed. And I was annoyed because I wanted to go to Okinawa. Fool. I mean, I don't say I should have known that I should have been glad if they’d posted me to the Orkneys not [laughs] Not Okinawa.
HH: And do you know the dropping of that the first bomb was seventy five years ago yesterday.
RA: Yeah.
HH: Yesterday was the 75th anniversary.
RA: Yes. I was, I was on a course then.
HH: And you were at RAF Strubby.
RA: Strubby. The Japanese aircraft rec.
HH: Incredible. Incredible.
RA: And I, and a incident there I’ll always remember. We, we were trying, using train to fire a twin mounted Browning gun. And we were all there learning and this youngster said to the sergeant, he said, ‘Hey sarge, now what [pause] if I shoot down the plane that pulled the target?’ And this sergeant, who was a comedian as well, he said, Son,’ he says, ‘If you follow the word of command when I give you the word of command to fire,’ because this plane was taking a drogue you see. ‘When I give you the word of command to fire if you hit that plane I will personally see that you become a air marshall.’[laughs] He said that. Because the drogues are apart, only a hundred yards behind the aircraft. So he said, ‘If you shoot that aeroplane down I’ll see you’re all right.’ So that’s what happened. The war, that part of the war finished for me at Strubby. And from then on it was. —
HH: It was winding down.
RA: Oh yes.
HH: The war effort. Yeah. Yeah.
RA: And I became, you know I of course kept on with my studies in. So in the end the the air force, the RAF and the Colonial Office give me a scholarship to do bookkeeping and accountancy. Business Management. So I got a scholarship to go to a college in, in [pause]
HH: Now, had you already, had before you got the scholarship had you already elected to go back to have your training and then go back to Jamaica?
RA: Oh yes.
HH: How many, how many people in your situation decided to stay rather than to go back?
RA: Quite, quite quite a few stayed because the option was open to me. The air force was keen to have people because at that stage we were trained people. So any, any Jamaican who wanted to stay in the RAF was welcomed with, with open arms you see because they trained people getting out into what you call Civvy Street and they you want people like myself who had three or four years in the service too. So I went to college. Did fair. Did fairly well at, at college. Got a diploma. Everything. And went back.
HH: But before you went back you had, you had met the love of your life.
RA: Oh, yes. Yes.
HH: By coming to Boston.
RA: Yes. Yes. Yes. I went to the Gliderdrome.
HH: So you need to tell us about playing cricket and dancing. That's the other part of the story you haven't mentioned yet.
RA: Yes. I got, I was, I got I I was quite I was quite a good cricketer from school. From school I was captain of the school, school team and so on. So I, I fitted very well with the the air force with sports you see. And I I did alright at the cricket in the RAF. In the RAF. And when I came to Boston I I I did. So, so yes I I went back to Jamaica of course. Went back on the Windrush.
HH: You did indeed.
RO: Came back on the Windrush and went to Trinidad and to Port of Spain in Trinidad and there's a, there's a main street in Trinidad. I forget the name of the street. And there's a main street in Kingston. And if you shut your eyes and taken, you could it could be the same place. The people. There were Chinese, Syrians, Indians in that street in Trinidad. Just like, just like Jamaica. So, the West Indians. There is something there's this thing that the same kind of people do thousands of miles away from Jamaica to Trinidad but they are, you know. It’s the same. You walk down the street and the same people. Indians, Chinese, Syrians, Jew, the same.
HH: Yeah.
RA: Some West Indians are really something. And of course we're British. That is a, that is a thing that [pause] I don't know if [pause] it's going from the story but I always see myself, you see as a coconut. You know about coconut. I am the, I am a coconut. I may be brown but inside I’m white because and the, the, the newer, the younger Jamaicans are not like that. They're not like me in that respect in that in growing up as I I wanted the things, the better things in life and the people who had the better things in life were the white people. They had the big house and the cars and the land and so on and that's what I, what I wanted. So deep down I was a, the joke about it was, ‘Oh, you're a coconut.’ But I say, ‘Yes. Yes, I am. I can't help, I can’t help it. I’m a child of my [age] Yes. I’m a coconut.’
HH: But I mean, you grew up when when that was part of the British world.
RA: Yeah, that’s right.
HH: Jamaica.
RA: When the young, the younger Jamaicans are completely different to —
HH: Yeah.
RA: To, to me.
HH: Yeah. They have just known independence.
RA: That's right I I have never voted in the Jamaica election.
HH: Yeah.
RA: You see.
HH: Yeah.
RA: I am, I am your typical Jamaican coconut [laughs]
HH: That's a wonderful story.
RA: Yeah.
HH: Ralph, I’m just going to [pause] So, Ralph we've got to the end of your story of service in the RAF and your return to Jamaica and we're going to conclude this part of the interview by saying it's part one and we will resume with part two and your life back in the UK in the, in the coming weeks.
RA: Okay.
HH: Thank you very much for talking.
RA: Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ralph Alfrado Ottey. One
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-08-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:53:51 Audio Recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOtteyRA200807, POtteyRA2001, POtteyRA2002
Creator
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Heather Hughes
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Jamaica
England--Lincolnshire
England--Filey
England--Oxfordshire
England--Yorkshire
Jamaica--Little London
Jamaica--Kingston
Trinidad and Tobago--Trinidad
Trinidad and Tobago
England--Lancashire
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph Ottey was born in Jamaica in 1924. Brought up by his grandparents, he describes his education and family hopes that he would become a teacher. He left school at 16 and a half but was too young to attend teaching college so worked for his uncle from 1940 to 1942. Ralph wanted to be an air gunner. He explains the variety of jobs he had before attending an RAF recruitment event in 1943. He applied to join but had to wait to sit the entrance exams. He enlisted to become a wireless operator/air gunner. He sailed in a convoy from New York to Liverpool. On arrival he was posted to RAF Filey for 13 weeks basic training. Told that there was no demand for new wireless operator/air gunners he was assigned the role of motor transport driver. He explains that whilst at RAF Filey he met what were to become his adopted parents. He was posted to No. 1 RAF Transport School at RAF Melksham. He passed out as an aircraftman first class driver (AC1) on completing the 13-week driving course. Finally posted to RAF Woodhall Spa he drove a variety of vehicles including petrol bowsers, the sanitation wagon, and Queen Mary trailer. He became the chauffeur for the senior armaments officer for 617 Squadron.
He describes being prepared to be sent to Okinawa, but the war finished before he was sent. He was awarded a scholarship to study accountancy and successfully obtained his diploma. He then returned to Jamaica on HMT Empire Windrush.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Paul Valleley
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
617 Squadron
African heritage
ground personnel
petrol bowser
RAF Coningsby
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Hunmanby Moor
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Melksham
RAF Strubby
RAF Woodhall Spa
recruitment
service vehicle
training
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27257/POtteyRA2002.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27257/AOtteyRA200828-02.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ottey, Ralph Alfrado
R A Ottey
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-08-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ottey, RA
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. Three oral history interviews with Ralph Ottey (b. 1924) and a photograph. He was born in Jamaica and volunteered for the RAF. After training in the UK, he served as a driver with 617 Squadron at RAF Coningsby and RAF Woodhall Spa.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: Okay.
[pause]
HH: Over to you.
[pause]
RO: Yeah. My name is Ralph Ottey and I served in the RAF at RAF Tattershall Thorpe from nineteen forty — 1945. And one incident that remained with me I was, we used to go to the village of Kirkby on Bain to village dances on a, on a Saturday night. And my friend Roy March and I got friendly with two, two girls in Kirkby on Bain. And one of them was the, the pub landlord’s daughter. And one day I went back to Kirkby on Bain in the afternoon to see my girlfriend that I, we generally met at the pub and when I went there she wasn’t there. And the landlord said that his daughter who was a friend of my girlfriend who was down in the river, the River Bain was having a swim at a place called the Weir. It was a thing like a swimming pool where the water pitched down from a height, from a pool, then carried on the River Bain. And when I went there she was having a swim and swimming towards where the, where the water was coming, dishing down. And she got in the middle and panicked. And I, I like a young fool jumped in the river to fish her out. Then I found out that it was very deep. And I can still remember was the water spilling over my head. However, it didn’t matter. I did what I went in to do. I got hold of her, turned her back on the stream and the stream took me down to a level where we could stand up. Of course it soon became well known in the village that I, I saved her life. I don’t know whether I did or not but I know I fished her out of the, the water. And her father offered me, at that time I didn’t realise how much money it was. He offered me fifty pounds to save his daughter’s life. Of course, I refused it to my credit. And some years later on when I, when I was manager at GM Limited and we had a supermarket in Oldrids this young lady, she, the young lady who I’d fished out had now married and was now a nurse and she saw my [pause] she saw me and my wife in, in the supermarket and she told them the story that I, I saved her life. And I haven’t seen her, I haven’t seen her lately but she eventually married a Polish gentleman and they had children. I don’t know where she is at the moment. But that was my excitement in life. And when I went back to the camp I always remember I was wet. Wet through because I went in with my full uniform on and I was fun. Provided fun for the boys that I’d jumped in the river. Of course what I should have done, I should I have reported it to the powers that be. But I didn’t. I kept quiet because I was laughed at by my friends in the village and I didn’t want to tell anyone. Later on they said, ‘Oh, well what you should have done, you should have reported it because you would have perhaps been perhaps rewarded as a life saver in the RAF.’ But that’s how it is. At that time I was a shy, a shy young man. I didn’t want to have any publicity. Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ralph Alfrado Ottey. Three
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph Ottey recounts an occasion when he came to the rescue of a local lady who found herself in difficulty while swimming in the local river.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Heather Hughes
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-08-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:05:52 Audio Recording
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOtteyRA200828-02, POtteyRA2001, POtteyRA2002
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
617 Squadron
ground personnel
RAF Coningsby
RAF Woodhall Spa
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27256/POtteyRA2001.1.jpg
9ee64dbe9ab0542740b596e866ecc868
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27256/POtteyRA2002.1.jpg
69156e7f973ccaecf24c03376e4537d7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1693/27256/AOtteyRA200828-01.1.mp3
add2263ef2aa4a1fb329d6f03c44dabd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ottey, Ralph Alfrado
R A Ottey
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-08-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ottey, RA
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. Three oral history interviews with Ralph Ottey (b. 1924) and a photograph. He was born in Jamaica and volunteered for the RAF. After training in the UK, he served as a driver with 617 Squadron at RAF Coningsby and RAF Woodhall Spa.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: Okay. So, today is Friday the 28th of August 2020 and I’m Heather Hughes and we are continuing our discussion with Ralph Ottey about his war memories and his life in Boston after the war, for the IBCC. Ralph, it’s lovely to see you again and thank you for agreeing to meet us and to talk some more because you were such a wonderful storyteller. Before we move on to your life after the war were there any other war memories that you wanted to tell us about?
RO: Well, I didn’t, I forgot to tell you about one of the squadrons of Mosquitoes was, were Pathfinders were based at Tattershall Park. And one that comes to mind was 109 Squadron and the leader was a New Zealander. Wing Commander Scott. And I remember that. The other squadron I just can’t recall what squadron it was but there was another squadron of Mosquitoes there. But I never had anything to do with them.
HH: And, and how did you get to know Wing Commander Scott?
RO: Well, because I think there might have been an emergency. Perhaps they wanted a driver to drive a tanker. Somebody didn’t turn up and I was loaned to just drive a tanker and fill, fill the aircraft up see. That was one of my jobs.
HH: In your capacity as a driver did you ever go and fetch fuel from a depot and then take it to the RAF stations?
RO: No. No. We had a big [pause] that place. A big tank. A big [pause] I don’t know what you would call it but we filled it with — they had, they had private company’s tankers that came and filled up all.
HH: Right.
RO: Yeah. And I would go to [pause] oh I forget what you call it but we would go there and, and get it from there. Yeah.
HH: Thank you for that.
RO: Yeah.
HH: So, we’ve, we went, last time we talked about the training that you were able to do. Bookkeeping and accounting in Staffordshire before your return to Jamaica and then you returned to Jamaica.
RO: Yeah.
HH: And you worked for a while.
RO: Yeah.
HH: In Jamaica and then you decided that you wanted to come back.
RO: Yeah.
HH: To, to Britain.
RO: To marry my girl. My fiancé. That’s what I came back for.
HH: Okay. So, tell us about your fiancé and how you had met.
RO: Oh yes. Well, this is a story that can be told a thousand times. There was a place called the Gliderdrome which still exists in Boston and it was where all the young people went to dance. There were dances on. It had, it had a roller skating some nights but dancing was definitely on the Wednesday night and on a Saturday night. And the world and his wife as young people went to the Gliderdrome if you were a serviceman. You‘ll find in Boston today there would be people who married and settled like myself who met at the Gliderdrome. And it still exists. The Gliderdrome. But not, not as a dancing place now. I think they play bingo. I think it’s a bingo hall. I think there’s a whole possibility that one of the younger people might take on and bring back dancing and concerts at the Gliderdrome. We’re hoping. But it still exists.
HH: And that’s where you met Mavis is it?
RO: That’s where I met Mavis. Yes. I met her. Well, what you used to do you had, because she was only about seventeen and she was there with another girl. Her friend. And I went up and asked her to have a dance. You can ask, you see. And it started from there. I’ve, and I asked her what her name was and she said her name was Mavis. And I said, ‘Oh, I’ve got a sister called Mavis.’ And she laughed and she said, ‘Oh, I bet you have an auntie called Daisy,’ because she had an auntie called Daisy. And I said, ‘Fortunately I have an auntie called Daisy.’ And she lived to go to Jamaica and met this Auntie Daisy so I’ll tell you that I wasn’t —
HH: How wonderful.
RO: It wasn’t just a chatting up line.
HH: Yeah.
RO: And, you know, and that was that. I met her a bit afterwards as I say. I like a dance and then it became a habit. I’d seen her at dancing and then it became that she expected me to come and see her and I expected to see her. Then after about three or four months of seeing her one night she said, ‘There’s somewhere I want to take you.’ So I said, ‘Alright.’ So we left the dance, the dance hall and we walked for about fifteen minutes and she took me to meet her mother and father. And it started from there. And then her mother and father were —
HH: And you got on well from the start?
RO: Oh yes. We got on really well there. You know, I didn’t, and I think it wasn’t that she was my girlfriend then. It was, it was later on because I was on camp and I couldn’t go. Couldn’t go over there every week because on a Saturday night I was on duty. Then it got so that if I’m not on duty, if I’m not at the Gliderdrome and I’m on duty I would ring her up, you know. It began to get like that. Then during the week if I can’t get down on the Wednesday night to the Gliderdrome then she’d perhaps ring me up. Because once I was stationed for briefly in the fire, the fire section. You see we can’t — as part of my training I could drive a fire engine. And so I was on duty at the fire engine and if I’m there I couldn’t — she’d ring the fire, I told her [unclear] she’d ring the fire station up and I would speak to her, you know. It got like that and it gradually get serious. And then —
HH: And then you took her to Scunthorpe, didn’t you?
RO: Oh yes. The people who befriended me at Scunthorpe [pause] I told them about this girlfriend and they said, ‘Oh well. Why don’t you bring her over to meet us for a weekend?’ So I said to her parents, ‘It’s alright?’ ‘Yes,’ they said, ‘Oh yes.’ So we went and spent a weekend with Aunt Lil and Uncle Arthur and we get, you know it’s, I met her in 1945. Nearly [pause] oh no. We were 1945 and we didn’t marry until early when I came back in 1949 so you know it was a long courtship. It wasn’t a shot gun period.
HH: Yeah. A long time.
RO: Yeah. I used to be at her parents’ house at Christmas in 1947 when it was a terrible winter. They had to close the camp down as I remember. I spent a few days with them in their home in Boston. And then when I went to college when I, it so happened that I used to come back to Boston every fortnight and I used to stop there and we used to go to the Gliderdrome. And it became [pause] and then when I realised that I had to [pause] when I finished college and I was going home. We talked about getting engaged because, so I said, ‘Oh, yes I will. But what I’ll do, I must go home and see my grandparents,’ who were, you know. ‘And we’ll say if, if we are still on for say six months or something like that and I can’t see my way to bring you out to Jamaica and get married out there,’ we had decided we were going to get married. I had given her an engagement ring and so on, ‘I’ll come back and and get married.’ So that’s what I did. After I was out there for about six, six months. I got a job out there but I wasn’t, I wasn’t happy. We wrote letters and there I’d got piles of letters she wrote to me. And piles. That’s right.
HH: Have you still got them?
RO: No. As a matter of fact I did a silly thing. When I left and came back I didn’t bring them. My sister got hold of them and kept my letters. And they disappeared. But I have looked because she used to write to me about two or three times a week and all that kind of thing.
HH: Yeah.
RO: Because there wasn’t any, I wasn’t able to telephone her.
HH: No. So you arrived back and then you were married. And where did you get married?
RO: Scunthorpe.
HH: In Scunthorpe.
RO: Yes. And the funny thing about it is that there was a little church that we used to pass and we’d say, ‘Oh yes. We’ll get married here.’ So we told Aunt Lil that we’d like to get married at that church. And she said, ‘Alright. You can think of us as your parents,’ you know. We’ll do all the, they did all the arrangements and everything. Then we found out that we couldn’t get married there because this was just outside the parish. So we got married at the Scunthorpe Parish Church much to, you know we didn’t really, we wanted this little church that was there but we had to get married. And it’s funny that I applied to get married and we, I was over there with, with Mavis to adhere to — and the the vicar or the priest came and to check us out that, that address we were at. From that address there. And we were there so we were alright. So we got married at the Scunthorpe Parish Church.
HH: And once, once you were married you obviously had to do something about finding a job.
RO: I think I did.
HH: And I was really interested that your, the final volume of your autobiography was called, “You’ll Never Get a Job in Boston.” So tell us about your experiences of trying to establish a career.
RO: Yeah.
HH: In Boston.
RO: Well, I, at that time war regulations were still on so you had to go to the labour, they called it the Labour Exchange at the time. You had to register as being unemployed. Right. And I went down to register and tell them who I am, you know and my qualifications I had [at the time] And I had a letter which was, I still, I think must be somewhere in my archives from the headmaster at the college, you see. And I, I showed the chap who interviewed me the letter and he looked at it and he said, ‘Oh. Was this given to you by a white man?’ So I said, well, facetiously I said to him, ‘Well, I’ll tell you something. He looked just like you.’ Whatever a white man being a surly, ‘He was just just like you.’ He said, ‘Oh well, I haven’t got anything against you, you know. But I don’t, you won’t get a job in Boston that suits. That befits your qualification.’ He said, ‘No, no Boston businessman will ever give you a job to look after their accounts.’ He said, ‘I haven’t got anything against you,’ he said, ‘No. I can see you have a first class, a HGV 1 for a driving licence,’ because of the RAF you see. ‘Oh, I think you’ll get a job as a, as a driver, you know. You’ll certainly get one.’ And I said, ‘Well, to be fair if I wanted a job as a driver I wouldn’t bother to go off to spend time at college to train as a bookkeeper. Accounts.’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’ll try my chances with that.’ So I did. So, and I, there was a chap who used to be with the British Legion who I spoke to him about it. And he said, ‘Oh. Oh, don’t worry,’ he said. ‘Do your own thing. Apply for a job.’ He said, ‘There’s plenty of jobs in the paper. You apply for one.’ he said. So I applied for this job. Somebody wanted a bookkeeper cashier. And I thought I’d never been a cashier before but I, but I know about accounts. So, I’ll take my chances. I just applied. And lo and behold the next couple of days I, I got an invitation to to to see Mr [Buehler]. The company was called GM [Buehler] Limited to go on the Thursday to see him. Lovely. I thought that’s the first step. So I drive in. Made sure I was on time. Looking, dressed, you know presentable for interview. So when I went there Mr [Buehler] said to me, he said, he said as we were talking, ‘You didn’t, in your, in your letter to me you didn’t say you was a Jamaican.’ So, I thought to myself well that’s a funny thing. I said, ‘Well, Mr [Buehler] you didn’t ask if I was a Jamaican. You just wanted a bookkeeper and I fancied my chances.’ So he said, ‘Point taken.’ And he was with another director of the company who was the vice chairman. He was the chairman, the vice chairman and this chap, he didn’t say very much but I could see his, his eyes. They were like his eyes tried to catch my eyes. That was very, you know but he was his brother in law who was the chairman of Oldrids. The big department store in Boston. Mr, Mr Gus Isaac was his brother in law. And then they spoke to him, everything, he said, ‘Oh well, you said you had —,’ [pause] I can’t [pause] ‘Some papers from the college.’ You see. And a recommendation from the headmaster. And he said, ‘That’s quite good.’ And he said, ‘Can you excuse me?’ He had, for a minute. So I actually went in an adjoining office and within two minutes they come back and they said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you what. We like, we like what we see and if you — I’ll offer you the job on the basis that for three months and if we like you we’ll make you permanent. And if you don’t like it you can leave and we’ll leave as good friends.’ You know. That type. I said, ‘Suits me fine. Yeah.’ And I came and I, he said, ‘When can you start?’ That was on a Thursday. I said, ‘Oh, well tomorrow.’ He said, ‘Oh, well not so quick [laughs] Monday. Monday will be alright.’ So, so I turned up on Monday and he introduced me to the other members of the staff and he introduced me to the chap who was leaving. The chap who was retiring and who was going to take the job and he said, ‘This chap will stay with you for a week and show, show you the ropes. What you have to do.’ When I had my first, my first responsibility was that I was the last there. There was a, there was a grandfather’s clock and I had to see to it that it’s wound up.
HH: Wound up.
RO: That was my first responsibility to start [laughs] because I was the last there. So, so I turned up on Monday on time of course and introduced me to the members of the staff [and I started from there.
HH: And how long did you stay with Mr [Buehler]?
RO: Well, this is a long story but what, what’s important is after about being there about three weeks Mr [Buehler?] called me in and said, ‘Come in. I would like to have a word with you,’ he said. I thought, ‘Crikey, I can’t imagine me doing anything out of line.’ He said, ‘Oh, well I did say to you that three months [pause] but I’ve seen enough and if it’s alright with you it’s permanent.’ So, I said, ‘Alright. It’s certainly alright with me.’ So I got the job. And I spent forty years.
HH: Gosh.
RO: I started there as a bookkeeper cashier and when I retired at sixty five I was the general manager. I became a director and I became a shareholder and that kind of thing. I grew in the company.
HH: So, tell us about the company.
RO: Well, the company was a family. A well established family business in Boston and [pause] but it was old fashioned and everything was based on the war. To survive the war. And when I came things were easing. And fortunately, when I was at college I did a lot of visiting businesses and I kept my eye open and see things that I could easily apply. So although I wasn’t part of the management I was able to say to Mr, Mr Buehler, you know. They took as improvement. And then Mr Gus, Mr Gus Isaac, the Oldrids one, he used to come. The one who used to keep an eye out watching me. He used to come and talk to me. Really friendly. And he said, ‘Now, I know you’ve been to Business College and you must have seen things and so on. And if there’s anything we can do to, you know improve and though you’re not part of the management yet, you know, you talk to Mr Gerald,’ that’s what he was called then, ‘And talk to me and we’ll look at it. We’ll look at it.’ So, I did that and Mr, Mr, Mr Isaac said to me one day, he said, ‘We’ve seen. I’ve seen enough of you and I’d like you to stay in this company. And I promise you that you will get as far in this company as your talent will take you. We’ve seen enough of you and we want you to stay.’ And that’s how it went on. And I changed the whole, although at the time I wasn’t seen as part of the management I was part of the management because the things, I mean the whole system we had these big ledgers. Big ledgers like that. Leather, leather bound and, and all that thing and I changed that to a loose leaf system and I brought in adding machines and so on. I suggested these things to Mr [Buehler] and he, yes. Then I found that I began, began to get additions to my job. You know. He was telling, Mr [Buehler] found me and, ‘Well, you know Ralph all these things you’ve brought in and you seem to have more time to do things. Would you like to take on? I’m getting older,’ because he used to do the salaries and wages. He said, ‘Do you think you could take that on?’ ‘Oh yes.’ So I take it. Then I brought in a new system. I mean he used to have these checking the calculations for paying tax and so on and I brought a slide rule. A slide rule in. I do it on every four weeks. You check with the, you know.
HH: Right.
RO: And because I’d seen that as a visitor so —
HH: Very useful.
RO: Yeah. So I got on. So, the more I am the more things I did for the company. Like, for instance I thought the office was upstairs. They had to climb the stairs and they, they used to have a machine to do the, to do labels. So the machine used to, chaps used to come up from the warehouse with, to do labels to put on the goods and they used the same machine to do the post you see. And I said to Mr [Buehler] I said ‘You can save a bit of money here.’ He said, ‘Why?’ I said, ‘Well, what you want is a little machine up here to do the, the post and save the chap having to climb the stairs.’ I said, ‘You’ll save the costs by getting them, give them their own machine. Another little machine for the office.’ He said, ‘If only, why didn’t we think of that?’ So it was implemented. And, you know, things like that I, I did.
HH: Lots of improvements.
RO: Yeah. So he, they begin to depend on, kind of depend on me to to — so to cut a long story short I brought in [pause] by the end machine accounting and that kind, and that kind of thing. And we start getting, running out of space and so on. So he decided, yes Mr [Buehler] he hadn’t any sons. He had four daughters. So he brought in a nephew. One of these to come to succeed him. That’s what it was. And Mr [Buehler] was quite honest about it. You see, he told me, he says ‘You’re a very bright young man and, you know but I can’t, I won’t be able to offer you the job as a number one here because it’s a family business, established for long and my nephew who is just leaving the services he’s coming in and he will eventually take over from me when I retire. When I retire.’ So what he was telling me if I didn’t fancy staying I could look elsewhere for advancement. But I was quite happy. Quite happy. I said, you know, ‘We’ll see how we get on.’ And fortunately, his nephew and I we got on like a house on fire.
HH: Fantastic.
RO: And we together pulled the company from when I got there it was doing five thousand pounds a week which was a lot of money in 19’ you know, at that time. Mr [Buehler] had four daughters at public school so it must have been doing, doing alright. You see. And when I, to cut a long story short when I retired as a general manager forty years after that well we were doing, all of the businesses three quarters of a million a week.
HH: Wow.
RO: We had five cash and carries. We had a new set of businesses. We had one in Boston, one at Skegness, one at Grantham, one at Scunthorpe and one at Wisbech and one at Fakenham. Six. Six cash and carries and four or five supermarkets.
HH: Incredible. That’s, that’s huge growth.
RO: Yeah. Well, yes. So that’s when I, when I, when I retired because we, we got to the stage where Mr [Buehler] died and his nephew took over as the, as the managing, as the managing director. His wife became the chair. Became the chair, the chairperson and she didn’t want, she wasn’t keen in the business and he had no, they had no sons so she decided that we got another person who wanted to invest. To come in the company. A chap. And with him, and David Issac and myself we pulled the company. We pulled the company. So when Mrs [Buehler] decided that she’d rather sell unfortunately at the time Mr Isaac who had all these sons didn’t have the wherewithal to buy the company because it was a big company now. So we sold out to a much bigger company. A massive company. I was its general manager then and Mr [Buehler’s] nephew he joined the head of, he joined the, became a director at the big company and then he left to go and set up his own company somewhere down in Bristol. So, I, I was left with the running the, running the companies.
HH: Gosh.
RO: And I stayed until I was, did forty years.
HH: Incredible. That’s a long time.
RO: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Tell me, Ralph so you were very successful in your career. And tell us about family and trips back to Jamaica. You had a daughter. Is that right?
RO: Oh yes. Oh yes. My daughter. My daughter Lesley. One child we have. This girl.
HH: And when was she born?
RO: She was born at the end of November 1945. That’s right. And she — no. 1949.
HH: ’49. Yeah.
RO: Yeah. 1949. And [pause] oh my daughter. She’s done exceptionally well. She didn’t, she didn’t at the time pass the eleven-plus at all. I don’t know. Everybody was surprised why she didn’t. I don’t know why she didn’t. She went to the secondary modern school called Kitwood and she was quite, quite bright. And I used to see the head mistress on the quiet to find, I never used to go to the school to see her to find out how my daughter is getting on. And she, she said to me, she said, ‘Your daughter is very bright. She could [pause] she could go far,’ you see. And I said, ‘Oh, that’s alright.’ Because my daughter was part of the young team, she didn’t, she was just dying to leave school and, and so on. So the head mistress, Miss Scorer said to me, she said, ‘Don’t you follow what she says.’ She says, ‘She will take you right down to the wire to see how far she can get.’ So when the time came for her to leave this school Miss Scorer said, ‘Her place is to go to Boston College,’ because they didn’t do A levels there, ‘And let her do her A levels there because she is quite bright and she’ll get on.’ So, when the time come my daughter said, ‘Ah yes, dad. I’ve got to leave school. I’m going to get a job.’ So, I said, ‘Yes. Is that right?’ She said, ‘Oh, actually I’m going to get a job. There’s a chap. There’s a company that sell records. I shall get a job there.’ I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘Oh.’ Remembering what Miss Scorer told me, ‘Don’t worry. She’ll take you to the wire to see. Testing you.’ So I said, I said, ‘Well, of course the other side of the coin is that the headmistress says that you should go on to Boston College and do A level. Your A levels.’ She said, ‘Oh, well she would say that wouldn’t she?’ I said, ‘Yes. And I think that’s what’s going to happen.’ ‘Oh’ she says and she stomped off, you know. But she did it. She went to Boston. Then she was doing alright. I’d never been, all the time I’ve been here I didn’t have a family in Jamaica. My grandparents had died and my mother and father were still out there and some brothers and sisters. And she, they only knew her through letters so I was determined that I wouldn’t go back to Jamaica until I could afford to take my wife and daughter. And in 1966 I think I reached that stage. Just when Lesley was at the college. And so I said, ‘Alright, we’re going out to Jamaica for Christmas. Spend a long holiday.’ Six weeks. You know, out in Jamaica. I said to Lesley, ‘You’re going to meet your grandparents and your cousins and so on.’ So we went, went out and met her cousins and so on. And she, she said to me, she says, ‘Dad, I know you are worried and concerned about how I’m going to do.’ She said, ‘I’ve been out to Jamaica. I’ve met that side of my family out there,’ and she said, ‘Don’t worry. I’ll get my A levels. I’ll do it and I’ll become a teacher.’ I said, ‘Well, If that’s what you want. That’s alright.’ So that’s what she did.
HH: Did, did she enjoy Jamaica?
RO: Hmmn?
HH: Did she enjoy Jamaica?
RO: Oh yes. She was, because there were quite a number of her cousins of her age. And I think that ⸻
HH: It must have been a lot of fun for her.
RO: Yeah. And one of them, because she’s a serious thinker and most of her cousins out there was at college and she wasn’t going to be bettered. She said to me, ‘Dad, don’t worry.’
HH: That’s great.
RO: So, she came, she got back and she got her A levels and so on and went to college in Bradford. St Margaret [unclear] College. And she, she said that, at first she said that she was going to do linguistics. Then when, after she changed her mind. She said, ‘I’m going to be a general teacher.’
HH: So, did she teach in primary or high school?
RO: Oh, Lesley. She got through her training as a teacher. And she said she wanted to teach in an area where West Indians are. I said, ‘That’s alright. ’And I think I’ll go to London.’ I said, ‘Oh London.’ Fortunately for me I had a cousin. My uncle’s son who was a minister of, an Anglican priest who’d got trained over here. He went to college at, you know. A college at Cambridge. That’s right. And he, he was there and he had a [pause] he had room that if she got a job in London she could stay with him ‘til she [pause] so she applied for a job in London. At, [unclear] near Wilson High School. Secondary Modern School for Girls in Brixton. And she got it.
HH: Fantastic.
RO: So she went. Got set up in London. Fortunately for Lesley after a while she was, she was doing alright. They said to her, they said, ‘We see one of your subjects you did was drama and we haven’t got a drama — ’ What do they call it?
HH: Department.
RO: Department. ‘Would you like [unclear] to set one up?’ So, she said, ‘Of course I would.’ So she set up this.
HH: Great.
RO: And after about two years they said, ‘Now, what we want is a head of department. Do you fancy that?’ she said, ‘Of course I fancy that.’ So, she, in a short while she was a head of department and she never looked back.
HH: Amazing.
RO: After a while there was a job at St-Martin-in-the-Field High School for Girls as a Deputy Head. And my daughter applied for it, got an interview and got it.
HH: She’s done well.
RO: Yes. After about four years the Head retired at St-Martin’s-in-the-Field High School for Girls and she among ten people applied for the Headship. She got it.
HH: Fantastic.
RO: She became head of department and she changed it. She changed the school because it didn’t have a sixth form and so on. And one day she rang me at work. She said, ‘Dad, I’ve done it.’ I said, ‘What have you gone and done now?’ She said, ‘I’ve been trying to get them to give me a sixth form so that I don’t have to send my girls to another school.’ And I said, ‘What do you do now?’ She said, ‘They give me six million pounds to set up a sixth form.’ So she —
HH: Fantastic.
RO: She set up —
HH: That’s wonderful.
RO: She set up a sixth form.
HH: So, so is she still working, your daughter?
RO: Oh, no. She retired.
HH: But she retired as a head teacher.
RO: She was Head. But not only that she did so well with this school she was awarded CBE.
HH: Oh really.
RO: Oh yes.
HH: How very wonderful.
RO: Oh yeah.
HH: You must be very proud of her.
RO: Oh, yes.
HH: Do you see your family quite a lot? Do they come up to visit you?
RO: She always used to come up but since this virus she hasn’t been up.
HH: No.
RO: Since then. But she did. Oh yeah. She, she was awarded for her, and the citation is for what she did for her school.
HH: Wonderful.
RO: And for education in general. But she is still busy. She’s governor of two. Two schools now and though supposed to be retired she’s busy with that now.
HH: That’s a fantastic career she’s had.
RO: Yeah.
HH: But talking about retirement. I mean, Ralph because you since your retirement you have done such a lot. Because you retired from your, your general manager’s position at [Buehler] in 1989 was it? But then you became quite involved in the Chamber of Commerce.
RO: Chamber of Commerce. Yes.
HH: And, and then you started this other career as an author.
RO: Yes.
HH: So, you know, I mean you have been quite busy yourself.
RO: Well, yes. Yes. I [pause] when I did things I thought, I always said one of my plan to retire was not to have a plan. Do you get what I mean? I was going to see. And what I didn’t want was to have a plan to be in management. I’ve had my forty years of management but I’d want to be involved. And then one of the, you know Mr Isaac’s son who, he was [pause] he became the head of Oldrids then. And he said he, during the time he became a director of J [Buehler] Limited so I got to know him very well and he, he said to me, ‘Oh, well the Chamber of Commerce in Boston is in a bit of a [pause] [unclear] . It could do with somebody like, you, you know.’ So, I said, I said, ‘Well, I’ve got, I’ve got a, I bought a house in Jamaica now to go on holidays and I want to go spend three or four months in Jamaica on holiday. I really don’t want to.’ But he said, ‘You know, you could really jazz that thing up, you know. Put some life in it.’ So I said, ‘Alright. I’ll do it for a couple of years.’ He said, ‘Oh, we can’t pay you. Pay you much.’ I said, ‘Well, no. It’s alright. I’m not on the breadline,’ you know. So I took on a job at the Chamber of Commerce. I said I would do it for two years as their membership officer. That’s what the title was. Turned out to be something completely, almost different. I did it for twenty years.
HH: That’s a long time.
RO: Yeah. Yes. I did it for twenty years. At the same pay.
HH: But it must have made you quite well known in Boston.
RO: Oh yes. Yes. That is it. That is the reason why I, I did this book about Boston. You know the Boston Marketplace and Bargate.
HH: Bargate.
RO: Because I knew every shop. Every [pause] every manager. Almost every director [unclear]
HH: That’s wonderful. But what interested me about those, those books that you’ve written on Boston what was interesting was the way in which you remembered your early life in, in Jamaica was almost the same. You remembered all where the houses were and then all the people who occupied the houses and it was almost like you used that same model to, to write your books on Boston.
RO: Yeah.
HH: It’s a lovely way of doing it.
RO: Yeah.
HH: Was there a reason why you chose to do it like that?
RO: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. Well, I was, I’m interested in people. You see. Because I realised which I learned at Business College is that a business is people. It’s alright having workshops and machinery. Without people there’s no business.
HH: Yeah. That’s true. Ralph, there’s something else I wanted to ask you in addition to all the other things that have kept you so busy. Did you ever sort of link up with other veterans who had served in the RAF? Have you? Have you kept in touch with any of the people that you served with? Have you?
RO: Well, yes. I had a friend named Roy March. We met at [pause] when we were learning to be, to be drivers at Training School in 1944. That’s right. Yeah. At, down in Wiltshire. Melksham. And we remained friends until he died about, he was two years older than me and he died about three, three years ago.
HH: Okay.
RO: And we’ve been friends all — he’s the nearest, he’s the nearest thing I had to [pause] outside my family. We had a thing that we, we developed. He never sold me anything and I never sell him anything. If I had something and he, and I can do without it I gave it to him. And the same with me. We never. There hasn’t been anything that I’ve ever bought from him in all those years. And neither, if I had something and Roy liked it and I can part with it he had it and the same.
HH: Wonderful. In, in one of your volumes of autobiography you noted that some other Jamaicans who had served in the RAF also married Boston women.
RO: Yeah.
HH: Now, why didn’t they settle in Boston? Where did they go?
RO: Well, not, none of them really. This friend of mine, Roy March he settled for a while in Boston. When I came back and got married he was in London. He was a, he at that time he was working as a motor, motor engineer. That’s what he went to learn motor engineering. The fellow from — at Scotland Yard. That’s right. And he was at Scotland Yard. And then he left. When I came back to Boston he left. He’d married and came back to Boston for about three or four years. But he didn’t, he couldn’t settle in Boston because he was, he was a town man. He was brought up in Kingston. He went to school in Kingston. I’m a village boy. Very much a village boy. Boston pace suits me. It didn’t suit him so he was always rushing off to London and so he went back to London and joined the Civil Service. And then he retired and went back and set up and became quite a good business man out in Jamaica until he died. Yeah.
HH: There’s a last question I want to ask you before we conclude because I think it’s time for you to have your photograph taken. Which is, all the way through your volumes of biography you talk about how you were learning. ‘I was learning. I was learning.’
RO: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: ‘I was learning.’ And what I want to ask you as a final question is you’ve obviously learned a lot in order to survive and to have a successful career. What do you think you think you might have taught people though? You learned a lot but what do you think you taught people who came in to contact with you?
RO: Well, I don’t know whether I I have. In Boston I had many acquaintances but I’ve, well truly I have real friends, both male and female. They’ve always been kind of long term people. Not many. But they’re long term. For instance I have a friend [pause] Mrs Hopkins. And she was the one who kind of pushed me. She’s a solicitor and I met her when we did a job for the Chamber. She was President of the Junior Chamber. She’s much younger. She’s forty years younger than I am but we seem to get along. We did this job and she’s never done [pause] in the Chamber of Commerce while she was President of the Junior Chamber she never got on with anybody as she got on well with me. And from then on it’s just been a friendship. And between you and me she gave, she knew that I like books and detective stories and I always know what Christmas present I’m going to get, or whatever present is going to be. A detective story. A detective story. So I’ve got piles of books [laughs]
HH: Well, perhaps that’s a very good point to to conclude this interview and I would like to thank you again so much for sharing these memories and these stories of your quite extraordinary life.
RO: Is that right?
HH: So, thank you very much.
[recording paused]
RO: Leave you know, I told you about [unclear] Yeah, who told me that if I behaved in England as I would behave in Little London where my uncles and cousins and grandparents was, how things would be alright because by and large he says most English people who he has dealt with are fair minded people. Fair minded. And he said that although he had had to take a hotel to court because of his colour. He said that he doesn’t say that people in England are all colour prejudiced. He said no. By and large people are fair minded. And if you behave in England as you would behave in your village you’ll be alright. And I’ve done that.
HH: And did it work for you?
RO: Oh yes. It worked for me. I’ve, I’ve got lots of acquaintances and friends and people. I mean the Isaacs and [Buehlers]. The family. I’ll tell you I, when I was writing this second book, a book about Bargate we thought we’ll go a bit upmarket and have a nice book presentation and so on. But I didn’t. I didn’t want to go, get myself, as it were indebted. To take the risk. And I was talking to one of the Isaacs who, and I told him I said you know [unclear] for that money out to make sure that I [pause] And he said, he didn’t say anything and I went home. And about a couple of hours later he, the doorbell rang. And he turned up with a cheque for a thousand pounds.
HH: Fantastic.
RO: Towards it. Yeah. He said, ‘I think you need help.’ And that’s —
HH: Great.
RO: No problem. A thousand pound.
HH: A nice story.
RO: And another one of the Isaacs said, ‘I’m selling a business.’ He had a business, ‘When I get the money in July,’ he said, ‘I’ll send you a cheque towards it.’ He sent me a cheque for two thousand pounds.
HH: Very generous.
RO: You see. I had the money to do that book.
HH: I’m pleased that you did because it’s, it’s lovely that you produced all these books.
RO: Yeah.
HH: And we hope that it won’t be stopping any time soon. We’ll help you to get some more done.
RO: Oh yeah.
HH: Thank you Ralph so much.
RO: You see, you keep me talking.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Ralph Alfrado Ottey. Two
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2020-08-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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00:59:28 Audio Recording
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Sound
Identifier
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AOtteyRA200828-01, POtteyRA2001, POtteyRA2002
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Heather Hughes
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
Jamaica
England--Lincolnshire
England--Scunthorpe
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Julie Williams
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
1947
Description
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Ralph Ottey joined the RAF from Jamaica. After the war he returned to Jamaica. However, he had met the woman he was to later marry while based in the UK and returned to the settle here. He settled in Boston and had a long career with a local firm. On his retirement he worked for the Chamber of Commerce and wrote a number of books about Boston.
617 Squadron
African heritage
entertainment
ground personnel
love and romance
RAF Coningsby
RAF Woodhall Spa
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1070/11527/APercivalRA161006.2.mp3
aa91caf943ea7204a1d9e0d6b824cffd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Percival, Robert Andrew
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with (b. 1960, 8173900 Royal Air Force). He served served 1978 - 1987 including time with the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight at RAF Coningsby and recovered 14 Merlin engines from Spain.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Percival, RA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 6th of October 2016 and we’re in the home of Robert Percival to talk about his times in the RAF which is much later than wartime but it’s significant for the reasons that will come out as we talk. First of all though Rob what are you first earliest recollections of family life? And —
RP: Family life?
CB: Where you went to school and so on.
RP: Well, I grew up in a place, in a village, called Lymm in Cheshire. L Y M M. And that’s where my father was brought up as well. And I grew up there, went to the usual primary school and then to Lymm Grammar School. I was one of only seven pupils from the primary school that actually qualified, or passed the eleven plus as it was and went to Lymm Grammar School. And had some very happy years there. How much detail do you want me to go into?
CB: Yeah. So then what did, what did you specialize in then? In education.
RP: Oh, well my chosen, well what I specialized in or loved the most was maths and geography. Those were my favourite subjects. Passed a string of O levels and when my friends and fellow pupils at grammar school were thinking about university and what their next moves were I was unusual in that that didn’t really appeal to me to be honest with you. Largely because my hobbies, my main hobby at the time was that of car rallying. I was one of the youngest qualified rally navigators in the country. But in order to do that I had to contribute some of the costs. So my priority at the time was to, rather than go to university go for an income somewhere so that I could continue my passion for rallying. Ok. So, much to my parent’s, what’s the word, displeasure. My motivation was that I’d always loved aeroplanes and always wanted to be a pilot. My father was a pilot in the Fleet Air Arm. And I’ve a photograph of him in his uniform on his wedding day in the lounge. But he used to fly. He was on carriers. He did eighty two deck landings. He’s passed away now, bless his soul but I have his flying log books. And he used to fly Fireflies primarily and Avengers on HMS Centaur. And he was my role model in terms of discussions and conversations about aeroplanes. And that’s what I wanted to do. And I actually applied to be a pilot and went to the Aircrew Selection Centre at Biggin Hill when I was seventeen. Passed all the tests with the exception of the medical because I’m colour blind. Now, I actually knew I was colour blind but my father, who I think was also a little bit colour blind, he was, he was a pilot. And in his naïve, my naïve way we thought we could blag our way through it. He said, ‘You’ll be fine.’ And of course the tests were a bit more, what’s the word? Involved and substantial than when he applied to be a pilot and they said sorry sunshine but you’re not flying one of our aeroplanes. You’re colour blind. Big disappointment. So, you know, I was thinking well what do I do now? And I decided to go down the engineering and this is why my chosen path was the, was the ATechP. Technician propulsion. Because to do the traditional apprenticeship at RAF Halton again one needed to be not colour blind. So that was my chosen route and that’s, that was where my parents were not very pleased with me because they said, ‘Well you ought to be going in as an officer, you know. Otherwise it’s like working in a car garage.’ And me being a bit pig headed at the time and seventeen years old nobody’s going to tell me what to do, I joined anyway. So, in spite of their displeasure. So, that’s how I came about joining the RAF in the trade that, as I say, I did. I have to say I enjoyed the work in the RAF. I enjoyed my time there. I wasn’t, I didn’t have the right, looking back I didn’t have the right personality to be in that type of environment. You know, I wasn’t one to take orders lightly. And I was a bit of a, was a bit of a maverick I have to say. But I went to Swinderby, did the training, went to Halton. Qualified as a technician. Was posted to Coningsby.
CB: Tell us a bit about the training.
RP: The training at — well I did, the normal square bashing at Swinderby was my first insight into that. Which was, that was fine. I just went through the motions. From what I can remember I think it was only a matter of weeks at Swinderby anyway. I can’t remember exactly how long but I don’t think it was more than about three months at Halton. That was fine. I enjoyed that. And I enjoyed obviously my first time away from home. So, looking back at some of the things we did. I had a girlfriend at the time in Cheshire when I left. So I went home most weekends when I could. And my normal, to start with my normal thing was to thumb it home from Halton. And then back on a Sunday night. My parents were a bit worried about that but I could always gauge within ten minutes what time I was going to arrive home. And it was, you know, a good three hour trip. And likewise going back on a Sunday night. Set up my first business whilst I was at Halton actually and that was trading in cars. So I used to thumb it home on a Friday. Buy a car over the weekend in Cheshire or Warrington where they were cheaper. Drive it back on the Sunday. Do whatever needed doing to it and sell it. So that was, that was my life split between Cheshire and RAF Halton.
CB: And how did the training course run? What did they actually do to teach you aero engineering?
RP: It started off with basic engineering first and time spent in the workshop just seeing how cut out we were to be an engineer. I remember vividly having to file bits of sheet metal and mild steel flat within tolerances to see whether, you know you had the patience for doing that sort of thing. And then it was, got gradually got more and more complex. Introduction to the, you know the jet engines and propeller engines. Going through modules where you’d take parts off, strip them down, rebuild them, put them back on the engines. And got to the point where, if I remember right, we were doing a lot of work on the Jet Provost at the time. But yes it was quite, quite an intense twelve month course. Because as I say that was a fairly new category where you could do, you know the, it wasn’t quite an apprenticeship but you could do your specialist engines or airframes, and I chose engines.
CB: The Jet Provost was the standard basic trainer then. What balance did you have of activity between classroom and practical?
RP: As one would expect, to start with a lot of it was theory and classroom based and as we progressed through that course it gradually became more and more practical. And towards the end most of it was practical indeed. Yeah.
CB: So were you stripping down engines and reassembling them?
RP: Yeah.
CB: What were you doing and how did that work?
RP: You’re testing my memory now. But no, it was about exactly as you say. Stripping down engines and rebuilding them but it was very much in accordance with the manual. The manual was the, was the thing that you had to do everything in accordance with. And half the test was about could you stick to the manual and, because what we didn’t want was to build an engine and have some bits left over [laughs] So, so, no it’s all about the discipline of following the procedures as set out in, in the manual at the time.
CB: And there are a huge range of tools used in the RAF. How did they deal with that from a safety point of view?
RP: Well, it was drummed into us at the start that as you say there’s a lot of specialist and general tools and they were all on tool boards with shadow stickers behind them. So at the end of each, not just the end of each working day but the end of each job as well you had to make sure that all the tools were back in its dedicated position. And it was immediately obvious when any of them weren’t because you had this dayglo sticker gazing at you thinking there is a space here where there should be a tool. So that was how they were managed.
CB: And who were the instructors? Were some of them civilians or air force.
RP: Yes. Yeah.
CB: Or what were they?
RP: Yeah. It was a mix of civilian instructors who were usually ex-RAF and serving air force instructors at the time.
CB: And how did you know if the engine was going to work after you’d reassembled it?
RP: Well, we refitted it into the Jet Provost at the time and did the ground test. And I think having built the engine, sat in the cockpit, started it and ran through a series of ground tests. So —
CB: So the ground test would be running up the engine as though the pilot was doing it was it?
RP: Well, yeah but in every —
CB: With a checklist.
RP: That’s right. With every engine and aeroplane then any major job that has been done then it’s up to the technicians to go through those tests anyway so that’s even after training at Coningsby on the Phantoms and so on that, you know we went through a checklist of checks that we would go through to make sure that the engine was fully exercised at all states. From idle to max RPM. And reheat on the Phantoms to make sure that everything was within tolerances. Temperature, pressure and all the other indications.
CB: Now this was very much the jet age for the RAF and it still used Chipmunks. So how did you deal with the ordinary reciprocating engines? What was the process you went through there?
RP: Well, again we had a basic level of instruction on piston engines on Chipmunks that, you know we did some work on those and on propeller engines of all shapes anyway because a lot of, obviously the propeller engines were gas turbine jet engines. So we had an exposure to all of the different ranges of engines and, and styles. And of course with my time at Coningsby and on the Battle of Britain Flight I flew many times in Chipmunks anyway as a, on air experience. So that was quite enjoyable.
CB: What flying did you get at Halton?
RP: None. Because there is, at Halton there was a part of the course was an air experience flight in a VC10. But that happened to clash with my eighteenth birthday party back in Cheshire so I chose the birthday party [laughs] So I had to give up my place on the VC10.
CB: Right.
RP: Which was disappointing but I was —
CB: You’ve got to get your priorities haven’t you?
RP: Absolutely.
CB: Yeah. And at the end, how long was the training at Halton?
RP: If I remember right it was just over a year. It may have been twelve or thirteen months. It wasn’t a long course at all.
CB: And how did you know that you’d finished the course?
RP: Well, there was a pass out parade.
CB: Right.
RP: I was actually taken ill during my course. So the course I think was thirteen months. I was there a little longer because I developed a condition called quinsy. Which was a throat, where it was highly inflamed and because I was forced to take three weeks sickness I was actually back coursed.
CB: Re-coursed.
RP: Re-coursed on to, on to the next available one. Yeah. So that was an irritation.
CB: So, at the end of the course was there an exam? How did they do?
RP: Oh yeah. There were exams throughout but at the end of the course there was like a, you know final exams. Several final exams which, if I remember right some people failed to pass. No. That’s the wrong word. They didn’t pass. But thankfully I did. So yeah there was, you know, a celebration. A passing out parade. And then everybody got together in the classroom to be told where they would be posted to. And as you said nine hundred posted to Coningsby. And I thought where’s Coningsby?
CB: You came in as an AC2.
RP: AC2?
CB: Air craftsman second class.
RP: Well, I came in as a, the actual rank at the time was a junior technician.
CB: When you started?
RP: Yes.
CB: Was it? Right.
RP: So I left Halton with the rank of junior technician.
CB: No. No. I meant when you joined the RAF. You came in at what rank? At Swinderby.
RP: Well, that was trainee junior technician.
CB: Oh it was.
RP: That was always going to be the case.
CB: Right.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Excellent.
RP: Because I know that the lower ranks there was the SAC and, sorry LAC then SAC. And then they brought out this new category of junior technician.
CB: Right.
RP: Which did cause quite a lot of discontent among some of the existing ones. Largely because the technicians at the time previously had had to go through the ranks of LAC and SAC whereas myself and my colleagues went straight to technician grade and were actually paid considerably more. And that was what caused them to be quite upset about it.
CB: So you received your posting to Coningsby. Then what?
RP: Arrived at Coningsby and my posting was to a division called the ASF — Aircraft Servicing Flight which was, we had a couple of squadrons of Phantoms at Coningsby and then the Aircraft Servicing Flight was for more in depth maintenance and engineering work. So that we took the aeroplanes from 29 Squadron and the OCU, Operational Conversion Unit and, I think it was 43 Squadron at the time. We brought them in for, as I say the bigger services that the squadron couldn’t handle themselves. And that was my time there. I also, whilst I was there at the Aircraft Servicing Flight moved, or did a spell in engine records. And that was purely because the, I wanted to, I recognised that I’d left school with a string of O levels but I left before I did A levels and I thought maybe that was a bit of a decision made too quickly. So whilst I was at Coningsby [pause] sorry. I’m getting mixed up now. It was when I was at Wattisham. What I did was day release at the local college. Sorry it wasn’t at Coningsby. It was at Wattisham that I was in engine records.
CB: We’ll come to that in a minute then.
RP: Yeah. That’s fine.
CB: Right. So you went into engine records.
RP: Sorry, engine records. Just wind that back.
CB: Yeah.
RP: No, that was later on in Wattisham.
CB: Oh, it was. Ok.
RP: I came to it. Yeah.
CB: Right. So ASF is not the first line servicing.
RP: No. That’s, that’s second line servicing.
CB: Exactly. Yeah.
RP: Where we were doing engine changes and yeah when the squadrons went on detachment to Cyprus, Germany, where ever, they always took some personnel from ASF because they’d got the more in depth experience of, and not just actually doing the work but more in depth experience of judgements as well. When an engine had to be removed for instance.
CB: Right.
RP: The biggest example was you’re obviously aware of foreign object damage going down the air intake and damaging the compressor blades and turbines.
CB: Particularly birds.
RP: Birds. Yeah.
CB: Clothing.
RP: Bits of grit, bits of clothing and they always, and that happened regularly. Some of it was in, within tolerances and allowable but they always called on us and quite often me at the time to say whether it was outside limits and actually the engine had to be removed and, and repaired.
CB: So the Phantoms had what engine in?
RP: They had the Rolls Royce Spey. Well, as I said, yeah the Phantom had the Rolls Royce Spey but I also did the detachment to the Falklands. I was actually in the Falklands for seven months. And we had to send a squadron of Phantoms to the Falklands. But then that left a gap at home and they had to be replaced. So what happened then was we bought a squadron of American Phantoms which had the General Electric engine. So in a roundabout way I worked, I was, I was in charge of the Rolls Royce Spey engines to start with and then the General Electric engines for the, for the squadron. American ones which had been sat in the Nevada desert I believe for many years since Vietnam.
CB: So it was dry and they were ok.
RP: It was but the stories of, I’m glad I wasn’t there but I remember one particular guy who had a look at these and went down. Because the Phantom you could just crawl down the air intake. Go right down to see the, you know the compressor.
CB: Right.
RP: And the engine. And there were a lot of stories of guys going down there at the Nevada desert to check on these engines. Then appearing at a rapid rates of knots because there were rattle snakes.
CB: Oh really.
RP: Nesting in the air intakes because it was in the shade.
CB: Right. What was the performance of the planes and the reliability between Spey and General Electric engines?
RP: There were fors and against for both. Reliability was pretty much the same. The Spey apparently if I remember right was the pilots used to say was a bit faster at low level. The downside of the American ones with the General Electric, the downside was that you could see them for miles away because they did leave a trail of black smoke behind them whereas the Rolls Royce didn’t. So in those days you know the missiles were sort of fire and forget but as long as you aimed at the black smoke then —
CB: [laughs] Right.
RP: You know, the missile would find its target whereas the Rolls Royce ones didn’t present such a visual target.
CB: Ok. So how long were you at Coningsby?
RP: Coningsby. Six years in total.
CB: Were you?
RP: Including the detachments obviously and including my seven months in the Falklands.
CB: So what years are we talking about? We’re talking about you started in —
RP: Well, I joined the air force in ’78. So I would have gone to Coningsby the end of ‘79. Very end of 1979.
CB: Ok.
RP: Yeah.
CB: So you left there in ‘85/6
RP: Yeah. And then did —
CB: Then where?
RP: The remainder of my time at RAF Wattisham, Suffolk.
CB: Right.
RP: Again, that was on Phantoms.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And in Wattisham as I say, a chunk of that time was in engine records and that’s purely because I wanted to go to college and do a day release and gained a Diploma in Business and Finance.
CB: Oh.
RP: Which was —
CB: Which — where did you do that?
RP: Quite unusual. Which was what? Sorry?
CB: Which college?
RP: West Suffolk College in Bury St Edmunds.
CB: Diploma in — ?
RP: Business and Finance.
CB: Business and Finance.
RP: Yeah. Because it was clear to me that apart from the Battle of Britain Flight the most enjoyable time I had in the air force was in the Falklands. And it was clear that I wasn’t a career person for the forces. And that’s largely because of my personality. I didn’t like taking orders too much and also because my friends from grammar school were going in their direction and I was thinking well, hang on a minute they’re making lots of money and making a thing for themselves and my best mate at school was doing very well in business and I thought well I can. I was better than him. So, you know, I’ve done my time playing at it. Now, I’ll come out and get a proper job. And, and the fact is that nowadays things are much more serious with Afghanistan and Iraq and all the other conflicts that are going on whereas then, you know there was, ok they had the QRA Quick Reaction Alert because of the Russian incursions.
CB: Yeah.
RP: Every couple of days. But other than that there wasn’t any real threat other than the obvious the Falklands.
CB: Yeah.
RP: So, I think we were just, we were going through a period at the time. Looking back I think we were just playing at it. And the usual exercises. Sirens going off in the middle of the night. And all the old soaks who used to work in Germany saying, ‘Well, that’s not like real life in Germany. You’re just playing at it.’ [laughs] So, so —
CB: Tell us more about the Falklands. There you were still flying out of Port Stanley were you?
RP: Yes. Yeah. I, I spent a week at Ascension Island waiting until the Royal Engineers had extended the runway and then flew down on the air bridge on a Hercules from Ascension down to Port Stanley. Very exciting times they were. We refuelled twice on the way down. And, and then with the Phantoms we set up the air defence ring. I thoroughly enjoyed it actually in the Falklands.
CB: How long were you there?
RP: Seven months.
CB: Seven months.
RP: It’s only designed to be, I was told it was going to be four months but it turned out to be seven months. But no. I enjoyed that. And then [pause] yes.
CB: And that was when? This, this is ’83 or —
RP: ’83.
CB: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. ’83.
CB: After the conflict in other words.
RP: It was after the conflict. Because obviously, you know the Phantoms couldn’t use the runway until it had been extended. So, you know, the first couple of months was spent on an old ship that was moored in the harbour. That’s where I lived. Which I’ve got photographs of that. And then the remainder we actually lived on what was an ex-prison. Floating prison. Again, in the harbour. The Coastell they called it.
CB: What was the comfort like there?
RP: Not great. It was better than the ship. A lot of it, a lot of the discomfort was created by the angst between the army and the air force.
CB: In what way?
RP: A lot of the usual banter because the army squaddies at the time weren’t particularly bright and we used to take the mickey out of them and wind them up which made them very angry and they were fitter than the average RAF. So some of the things they used to do to wind us up were not very nice.
CB: It was a double wind up.
RP: It was. And for example, for example when, when I left the Falklands I sailed back to Ascension Island on the SS Uganda.
CB: Yes.
RP: An ex-hospital ship. And that was a really nice trip actually because I don’t know how long it could have taken us to get there but it, we took a lot longer than we needed to just to coincide our arrival at Ascension Island with the VC10 flight home. We only left Port Stanley on the 1st of January. I remember that. We left into a raging storm in the roaring forties.
CB: Yeah.
RP: Which lasted a couple of days. As soon as we got out of that into the sunshine mid-South Atlantic we throttled right back on the Uganda and then just cruised up at 4 knots up to Ascension Island. But going through the roaring forties I put a note on the notice board saying there was a snooker competition. When the ship was pitching and rolling all over the place. And yeah, I got a dozen army guys signed up for a snooker competition.
CB: [laughs] Well it fits doesn’t it? Yes.
RP: So, and then we got to Ascension Island and lots of stories there and even when we were just anchored at Ascension on the ship for a couple of days before I picked up the VC10. And you could, looking over the side of the side of the ship you could see the sea water piranhas. You weren’t allowed to go swimming off the ship because they were quite dangerous piranhas. The standard thing at the time was to get a bucket with an apple, drop it over the side. All these piranhas would go into it and then you’d pull it back up, pull the rope back up. And there was one Polish army guy who [laughs] I don’t know why I used to wind these guys up but I know he went down to the toilet to use the, and he was sat on, and I got this piranha, razor teeth and I’ve got a picture of one of them there and I just threw it over the top of the toilet door and this thing’s flapping around the toilet. ‘That’s it. I’m going to kill you.’ Usual antics that you know.
CB: Yeah.
RP: When you go.
CB: That forces people do.
RP: That forces people do.
CB: Disgraceful behaviour [laughs]
RP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And then he was doubly upset because when we left the ship to get on to the VC10 we left via helicopter. Whirlwind. And all the bags were in the net that was underslung under this Whirlwind. And when it, the army, they took the army’s luggage to be taken off the underslung net actually split and all their luggage dropped into the sea never to be seen again.
CB: Oh dear.
RP: Yeah.
CB: The piranhas ate the lot.
RP: We didn’t really laugh.
CB: No.
RP: So, so that was, yeah I enjoyed the Falklands. It was an eye opener for me.
CB: What was so distinctive about the Falklands from your point of view?
RP: Real life. It was, we weren’t playing at anything. It was real life and I went on a long weekend of what we called R & R because it was so noisy. Constantly noisy because the runway was made of PSP matting.
CB: Oh was it? Right.
RP: And it just vibrated every time —
CB: Right.
RP: Anything landed or took off.
CB: Pierced Steel Planking.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Just so — yeah.
RP: That’s right. And I took a team out because, because of the noise. There was one particular day off we had and I said, ‘Let’s, you know, let’s go and explore some of the Falklands.’ So we had to get permission at the time because of all the minefields that were around. And that’s what we did. And I’ve got pictures here of coming across Argentinian ambulances that had been riddled with bullet holes and I’ve seen, actually it was our guys that did that. And there was the deal at the time was you find anything, any debris from the war, you know, to come back and report it to the authorities there. Which we did. Went back a week later and it had all been removed. So yeah it was the fact that this was suddenly real life and you know.
CB: And were the Argentinians actually trying to probe in the air?
RP: Oh yes.
CB: All the time were they? So the Phantoms were busy.
RP: Oh yes. Yeah. And, and yeah and it actually taught me a lot about people as well. About how, how, what’s the different, how people can turn into something different in that type of situation where, you know there were a lot of people were actually hoping it would start up again to give them some action. And I was thinking you know this isn’t, this isn’t something to be proud of. But a lot of people were actually so bloodthirsty and so — what’s the word? Geared up to get back involved.
CB: What about the locals? What was their, what was the relationship with the Falklanders?
RP: That was fine. Yeah. That was all, they were all very grateful obviously. And just going on just my long weekend away to West Falkland. You know we flew there in a little puddle jumper plane and met a lot of the locals. And I remember we flew there, then a helicopter took us to some remote part of West Falkland and dropped us there and gave us a map and said, ‘Your nearest bit of civilisation is twelve miles that direction. We’ll see you there at dinner.’ It was great fun. It really was. Are you warm enough? Are you cold?
Other: I’m alright.
CB: Yeah.
RP: So I distinctly remember that being great fun. And suddenly the, that’s what it was. Rest and recuperation. A break from the noise and the vibration. So yeah I loved that. But —
CB: In the meantime they were building the new airfield were they?
RP: Yeah. At —
CB: Mount Pleasant.
RP: Mount Pleasant. Yeah. Well that, work on it had just started there when I was there. We were still operating from Port Stanley.
CB: So fast forward now. You come back on the VC10. Then what? Back to the grind.
RP: Back the grind, yeah. And back to Coningsby. And I was only there another few months at Coningsby before being posted to Wattisham. So my time on the Battle of Britain of Britain Flight was actually before. Just before going to the Falklands.
CB: Ok. So let’s just talk about that. So the Battle of Britain Flight had been formed a few years before. It was stationed at Coningsby.
RP: Yeah.
CB: What did you do for it? What? How was, how was it manned from an engineering point of view?
RP: Well, what happened was I worked for the Aircraft Servicing Flight which was positioned at the next hangar to the Battle of Britain flight. And I was always interested in the aircraft of the Battle of Britain Flight. Largely because again, you know through discussions with my father and the propeller aircraft that he used to fly in and so on. So I had good friends who worked on the Battle of Britain flight. So what clinched it for me was me pleading to actually get a joy ride on the Lancaster. Which, you know, I did. It allowed me to, in fact coincidentally that was flying to Wattisham to do a display and then flying back again. So yeah, I just went along to enjoy the ride if you like and got hooked there and then. And made it well known that I’d like to be either seconded or posted to the BBMF and it worked because when this role became apparent they came to me and said, ‘Would you like to do it?’ Which is, obviously I said yes. And that was to rebuild a number of, or strip down and rebuild a number of Merlin engines [coughs] pardon me, that came back from Spain. Then they could be spare engines for the Hurricane, the Spitfire and the Lancaster that all used the same engine.
CB: You mention Spain. So how does that come into the equation?
RP: Well, these engines were found in a cave in Spain. Each one. They were crated up and the story was that these were Merlin, Rolls Royce Merlin engines and the original intention was for them to be used in Messerschmitt airframes.
CB: Which they were. The Bouchon.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RP: So that’s how these engines became, were found in Spain.
CB: Who found the engines?
RP: I don’t know to be honest with you. I don’t know.
CB: And why were they in a cave?
RP: Well, they were hidden there. I think, from memory I think it was the Spanish Air Force that were looking to acquire Messerschmitt airframes and put the Rolls Royce Merlins in to them.
CB: Or they built the air frames under licence with Merlin engines but just curious how the engines came to be in a cave.
RP: I don’t know the history of that to be honest. I don’t know.
CB: Where was the cave?
RP: I didn’t actually go to the Spanish location.
CB: Ah.
RP: So I’m not sure where it was.
CB: Right.
RP: These were just brought back.
CB: What condition were they in? How were they packed?
RP: Visually, visually they looked in really good condition.
CB: In crates or what were they?
RP: In crates, yeah. They were crated up. Lots and lots of grease on them. Protective grease. They weren’t pitted. They looked like they’d weathered their time in the crates and in Spain very well. And myself and my boss if you like, I don’t know if any of these names are familiar with you. My boss on the Battle of Britain Flight was a chap called Chief Technician Pete Russian. He was, he was a real enthusiast. Pete Russian. Yeah. He was a real enthusiast. Another interesting fact about my time which I just thought of actually in the Battle of Britain Flight. They obviously, we obviously got to know a lot of civilian operators of Spitfires of which there were quite a number. And I just, it’s just dawned on me this, there was one Italian who had a Spitfire and a number of our guys went across to do some work on it to restore it to get it back in to flying condition. And I left just as that was being completed and I, when I went to visit Just Jane only a few years ago there was an engineer there who basically did what I did but Just Jane and he recognised my name. He recognised my name and he’d seen my name on the paperwork because he used to be on the Battle of Britain flight. He replaced me actually. And I actually asked him whatever happened to that Italian Spitfire? He said it was actually flown to the UK and then on to the US by one of the, by one of our favourite pilots at the time. A chap called Paul Day.
CB: Oh.
RP: Do you know — ?
CB: Yeah.
RP: Yeah. He was a great guy. Had some laughs with him. I’ve got some stories about him as well. Anyway [laughs] but yeah. Apparently, yeah I was pleased to learn that he flew that all in one go as well apparently. From Italy back to Coningsby.
CB: Amazing. The Merlins are of interest because of course the Lancasters had Merlins. As other aircraft did as well.
RP: Yeah.
CB: As you said. So what was the task with these engines? You got them in crates and they’re greased with greaseproof paper and whatever else they put on them.
RP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: What did you do with them and how were they then handled?
RP: The idea was, was to have as many of these become a spare engine available to use on the Hurricane and Spitfire and Lancaster as possible. As I say as many to use because some of these did actually have some components missing so we, I remember we had to cannibalise a couple of the engines to get some of the missing components to make other ones complete. So that was, that was the task and it, it took quite a long time as well because some were found to be, whilst they were in generally good condition there were some cracks in them. So we had to get some NDT Non-Destructive Testing crack experts to come in. Once I’d stripped the engine down they would come in and, and just check the integrity of the components that we got.
CB: Fluorescein dye.
RP: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. There were various techniques that they used. One of which was that.
CB: And do you know which mark of engine they were, Merlin? Out of interest.
RP: No. I can’t remember to be honest.
CB: And whether they were suitable for all of the aircraft.
RP: Oh yeah.
CB: You had to be selective.
RP: No. No. No. Each one could be made suitable for any of the Merlin engine ones. Obviously not the Griffon Spitfire but, but for the —
CB: The [unclear] Spitfires and the Lancaster.
RP: And the Lancaster.
CB: Ok. So where was this work done?
RP: At the main hangar in Coningsby and also at Woodhall Spa. The engines were shipped to Woodhall Spa when complete. And whilst they were waiting for their turn to be stripped down that’s where we kept them.
CB: Then where did they go? Where were they stored after they’d been reworked?
RP: There was another. That was split between Coningsby and Woodhall Spa. I do remember that space was at an absolute premium. And I think obviously the Battle of Britain flight now has got a lot of focus and priority and, and at the time it was less so. It was the, it was the Phantoms and the Rolls Royce engines that you know took priority everywhere. So it was like we could, we were allocated a corner and then squeezed even further into the corner.
CB: So how were you doing this work? Were you interspersing it with your activities? With the Aircraft Servicing Flight?
RP: No. No. I was seconded.
CB: This was a, this was a specific task.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. I was they said to me, ‘If you want to take this job it will be dedicated to the Battle of Britain Flight,’ you know, ‘Leave the Phantoms behind.’ Absolutely fine by me so that’s what I did. Thoroughly enjoyed it. And, and what, not brought it to an end but for me was when I was told I was heading off to the Falklands. To —
CB: Right.
RP: Think about Phantoms again.
CB: Right. So the engines had been reworked. How were they run up after that? Were there special benches to run them up?
RP: No. No.
CB: Or were they never run?
RP: They were never run on a bench. When we, once we’d completed an engine we had to schedule it in to be run up on the Lancaster left inboard. Number two position. We had no facility to actually even start it.
CB: So it was always tested. Was each engine tested in the Lancaster then?
RP: Yes. Absolutely. Each engine was tested in the Lancaster.
CB: On the ground or did they fly it as well?
RP: Both.
CB: Right.
RP: But extensive tests on the ground first in accordance with, you know the manuals at, at the time in terms of you know the specific tests we had to do on that engine having started it and fired it up. So much was great fun. And then when it passed those tests it was, it was good to go for a an air test.
CB: So how much ground testing was there? How did it work and what period would it be? Would it just be ten minutes or were they running for a half an hour?
RP: No. No. No. No. No.
CB: Or what did they do on the ground?
RP: No. Testing my memory now. But it was, it was a good couple of hours.
CB: Oh was it?
RP: Oh yes. Yeah. And if I remember right what we did was rebuild one of the engines. Then start to rebuild another one. So we weren’t having to take out the number two engine on the Lancaster and therefore ground it each time we had one built. We, we’d have a couple of engines ready for test and when there was a gap in the, in the display over the winter then we could take the left inboard out and ground test both engines.
CB: So when it did the air test was that because it was going somewhere and they were comfortable with it?
AP: Well it —
CB: How long did the air test go on?
RP: The procedure was that it had to be ground tested first.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And then before it could be signed up as, off as operational. It had to go through the air test as well. You know things like they had to shut the engine down mid-flight and then be able to restart it again without any problems. And some things that you had to do on air test that can’t be done on the ground.
CB: Yeah.
RP: So, no that was quite an exciting time but each air test again lasted an hour. Three quarters of an hour to an hour. And on some occasions the engines because of the pressures to meet displays some of the air tests took place enroute to a display and the display actually happened subject to successful test of the engine mid-flight.
CB: But as they had been properly worked on by yourselves there was no real reason to think that they wouldn’t work.
RP: That’s right. Yeah. And from memory I didn’t ever have an engine I built fail an air test.
CB: So there were nineteen originally. Were all of them air worthy in the end?
RP: Well, I rebuilt, I’m trying to remember now how many. Probably half of those before I got the call to say, ‘You’re off to the Falklands.’ So as far as I know this other chap that I met on Just Jane he took over from me. Where he came from I’m not quite sure. Not a name I knew at the time. So somebody else carried on my work to be honest.
CB: The BBMF have more aircraft now then they did then. But what spares of engines did they have? Was there already quite a bank of engines?
RP: No. No. There was —
CB: Or were they getting desperate?
RP: They were getting desperate and Pete Russian and myself we went up to Prestwick. I remember that trip because there were quite a number of spares and engines lying around in Prestwick. But it really was literally going into a hangar, finding an engine that, you know or components that looked pretty much complete and saying we’ll have those and transporting them down. So, no. It really was looking under every stone for spares and for spare engines. And I remember bringing a couple back from Prestwick with him. [ coughs] pardon me. And in terms of components we were forever going to what they called rob the gate guards. There were a lot of Spitfires and Hurricanes on the entrance gates to stations. And I remember distinctly the number of them had still had air coolers for instance. And we went to Benson. Went to a number of places to, somebody had a register of what gate guards were where and just what components were still on it. But yeah we were forever going to various stations, taking the panels off, robbing the bits, putting the panels back on.
CB: Well, they weren’t going to fly again so it didn’t matter.
RP: Exactly. But that’s how desperate we were.
CB: Not then.
RP: That’s how desperate we were for spares.
CB: I’m stopping just now.
[recording paused]
RP: Yeah. There was one particular occasion when we were about to do engine runs on the Lancaster and it was one early afternoon. And we were just getting ready to do this and I took a phone call in the crew room from the guard room. And the chap in the guard room said, ‘I’ve got two guys here who used to work on Lancasters during the war and they’ve just turned up on spec. One lives in the UK and it’s his brother from Canada. And they’ve just turned up on spec to say is there any chance of having a look at the, you know the Battle of Britain Flight. The Lancaster.’ So I said, ‘Yeah, I don’t see why not.’ I checked it with Pete Russian my boss and he was fine. So we jumped in the Land Rover and picked them up. And a lot of the visitors that we used to get on the Battle of Britain Flight were ex-aircrew or people who, everyone seemed to claim to be an ex pilot. But these two guys turned up. Very genuine. Clearly ground crew, and got quite emotional. And at the time I remember saying to the guys, ‘We were just about to do engine runs on the Lancaster. Do you want to come on the flight deck while we do it?’ And there were tears streaming down their face. So we did the engine runs and the guy from Canada particular, particularly, you know we did what we needed to do and I said, ‘Can you remember how to do this?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ And so with the engines turning we actually had him sat in the front left seat. He was crying his eyes out with nostalgia as he was going through some of the engine runs himself. And that was purely they decided to have a day out whilst he was visiting the UK and it turned into that. And they were so grateful that they insisted that evening on taking us all to the pub and buying everybody food and drink all night long.
CB: Fantastic.
RP: What a night that was.
CB: What’s your perception and recollection of people’s approach to the Lancaster? The ground personnel.
RP: In terms of what?
CB: Well, you’ve just talked about the emotion of these men. But what about the people on the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight? Did they have a very strong attachment? Some of it based on history of being with the aircraft.
RP: Yeah. Absolutely. And from talking to lots of visitors at the time you know that was very much the case during the war as well where the ground crew were passionate about their aeroplanes. Their components. Their, the work they’d done. And I suppose it’s like I know a lot of people who are passionate about the old car they keep in the garage. At the time the ground crew were passionate about the quality of the work they did and the preservation and looking after and protection of these old aeroplanes. And yeah, they took, they loved them. And the first thing that hits you when you get in these is the smell of the old leather and and so on. And you just, you become attached to it. Much more so than say the Phantoms. Yeah. Because you know they were at the time a dying breed and we just wanted to make sure that you know we did everything we could to keep them flying. And as I say the attachment was much more so than the modern, at the time, Phantoms.
CB: How did these two men describe their experiences?
RP: Well I remember them saying that they, because we were talking about this very subject in the pub. And they were saying that that was exactly how you know they remembered it during the war. When obviously they used to call them the kites. And when any, any of their kites didn’t come back because it had suffered, you know a shootdown or something everyone was very saddened. And this is what they were telling us. Everyone was very sad about the crew that had been lost. But actually just as sad about the aeroplane that had been lost as well because it was a, you know a piece of, a piece of art. And that was how they regarded it.
CB: And how did they describe their attitude to when the crew bent them?
RP: Anger. Absolute anger [laughs] And that happened on a fairly regular, you know basis. Whether they bent them on landing or they came back a bit shot up, you know. It was almost like blaming the crew for not being able to avoid being shot at. But yes it was exactly the same perception, attitude and connection with, with the aeroplanes.
CB: And how did you gauge their relationship with the aircrew?
RP: Total respect. The aircrew were always seen to be a bit aloof anyway. As they were with the Phantoms but, and rightly so, you know they were the aircrew and the pilots and you know there were every reason to be seen as godlike if you like. Total respect but also more respect of the fact that a lot of people took off at the start of a mission and didn’t return. So not just respect about the, you know the aircrew being aircrew and being the, you know, the pilot, navigator and so on but it was just about you know the sacrifice that these people often made when the ground crew didn’t. They’d just turn up for work again the following day. And I think that was, that was the respect bit.
CB: And so you saw them at Coningsby and then you were at the boozer afterwards.
RP: Yeah.
CB: And what other things did they talk about? These two chaps. In terms of their experiences in the war.
RP: I’m now struggling to remember but they they did talk about, a lot of discussion about the lives that were lost. About the aircraft that didn’t return. The speed of manufacture and the speed of deliverance of replacement aircraft as well. The whole country was pulling together and produced these things off the production line at the rate they were going at. That was very admirable as we say. Both of them, even the chap who was in from Canada who were both British. They both talked a lot about the, you know, the Americans arriving and the effect that had. More of the perceptions than what they saw the reality. Pinching all our girls and all of that sort of thing. And —
CB: Overpaid, oversexed and over here.
RP: That’s it. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, they were just reminiscing themselves and probably remembering things as they were reminiscing themselves.
CB: Quite. Yeah.
RP: But yeah it was, it was on a serious note it was respect for the aircrew because of the possibility of them just not coming back. Now that, that sort of respect I didn’t find in any of the Phantom squadrons. Because it was pretty much guaranteed and as I say there wasn’t really another conflict on the go at the time apart from the Falklands. So that, that was a very different experience that I valued on the BBMF to be honest.
CB: Yeah. I just wondered whether they also talked about their everyday lives on the airfield and what they were doing.
RP: Yes. They, they talked about that. They lived in fear of the station warrant officer.
CB: Didn’t we all?
RP: About being hauled in if you failed to salute or weren’t wearing, you know, the tie in the right way or, and in in that respect that was no different from being at Halton or Swinderby. That was exactly the same to be honest.
CB: So going back to your own experience you flew on a number of occasions in a Lancaster.
RP: Yes.
CB: Why would you do that and how many hours did you?
RP: I think I notched, can I just turn that off?
CB: Ok.
RP: I notched up. Oh sorry.
CB: It’s alright.
RP: No. I flew in the Lancaster on many occasions. And found that great for my preferred location because obviously on air test or just going along as a passenger once we’d finished the air test was in the mid-upper turret. That was, that was fine. Except that it was full of holes because it had been stop drilled. Where there was a hole in the crack in the Perspex they’d drilled it to stop the crack extending. So if you were flying through cloud or anything you did get a bit wet. I flew in the rear gunner’s position many times as well. That was quite interesting.
CB: How did you feel sitting in the isolation of the rear gunner position?
RP: Well, you couldn’t help but, you know, imagine what it must have been like during the war. Especially at night as well. In freezing conditions. So, yeah, I mean it’s an experience that you know most of the population don’t get to have but it was, as I say you couldn’t help but imagine what it must have been like. There were some hilarious moments as well. And I remember one of the most memorable ones at the time was flying in a three ship with the Spitfire, Hurricane and, and Lancaster and I was, on this particular occasion I was in the rear gunner’s position and flying along. Flying to Blackpool actually for something and it was always the station commander’s prerogative to pilot the Spitfire. And it was Group Captain Bill Wratten who was flying the Spitfire and I was just actually watching him and he threw the canopy back because it was a nice, you know, sunny day. And his chart — straight out the top of the cockpit. And he happened to be doing the navigation for the three ship. So we got to Blackpool and had a severe warning that if ever this was mentioned back at Coningsby there would be repercussions.
CB: As you do.
RP: Yeah. And in those days I do remember part of the standard equipment on the flight deck on the Lancaster was a pair of high powered binoculars.
CB: For the beach.
RP: No. It was so that when we got lost which we did regularly we could find a motorway and see which junction we were at. So binoculars were road atlases. I remember one where one of the old aircrew who’d died, it was his last dying wish that his ashes would be scattered over a beach in Skegness.
CB: Oh.
RP: And we did this on route to a display. And, and Jacko Jackson said, ‘Right. We’ve got literally a minute to fly around the beach.’
CB: Took it down did he?
RP: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. And one of my oppos, the air frame guy whose name escapes me. It was his job to take the top off the ‘chute and put the ashes down and he couldn’t get the top off the urn. Jacko said, ‘Have those ashes gone yet?’ So he just chucked the old urn down. And it hit the papers when the kids were playing football on the beach with this urn when someone suddenly realised what it was. Yeah. Yeah. And you know and I do remember once flying through bad weather. We did get lost and Pete Russian insisted we all come out of our positions and sit with our backs against the main spar. Because it did get quite [pause] in fact he got in, I know he’s been around all over the place. He got in a bit of trouble because he always refused to fly in a Lancaster until it had done three or four flights after a major service. Just in case. But —
CB: So the practical consideration from an engineering point of view of flying in the Lancaster was what? The justification for the engineers to go in it.
RP: Well at the, from, well obviously it was a display so for example the Jersey air display was one of the biggest on the calendar at the time and that lasted for what? Three days. So had to have the, you know the ground crew just in case there were any problems because it took off or landed probably four or five times during that display. So just in case there were any problems there they had to have [pardon me ] ground crew to cover it. That was usually what it was for.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And Farnborough. That was another big one that we had to fly to. So, so that was the reason for the ground crew going.
CB: And whilst you were flying in the Lancaster were you always in a crew position or did you move about?
RP: No. Once you’d picked your position or nominated a position then that’s where you stayed. Unless, as I say, like the occasion when we were told to sit with our backs against the main spar. But, but no there was very little room in a Lancaster to move around. Normally if you did move around you banged your head on the framework anyway. So it was far better to stay there.
CB: Yeah. And what was the basic crew of BBMF for the Lancaster? The pilot and who else?
RP: Now then. Pilot and the number two pilot obviously in the right hand seat. The flight engineer. I’m trying to remember now. Radio operator. Navigator. And then whoever else was on board from, from the ground crew. I know, I know there were some characters there. Bandy Bill was one of them. Bow Legged Bill. He’d actually baled out from Lancasters twice during the war. Once over Belgium. So they all had stories to tell. But whilst we were on the Battle of Britain flight there was, there was one very memorable occasion when the Mosquito came in and obviously a crew of two were the visiting Mosquito crew from Hawarden. And the pilot and the engineer there and the engineer met up with Bandy Bill who they’d known from wartime and he decided to stay in the mess overnight. The Mosquito had to go back so the pilot of the Mosquito said, ‘Well, I’ve got a spare seat going back if anybody wants to come along for the ride and then make their own way back to Coningsby from Hawarden,’ Near Chester, ‘You know, can do.’ And in all fairness, I can tell you it was between me and Pete Russian the chief tech. Pete didn’t pull rank. He said, ‘Let’s flip a coin. One of us will go.’ And he won it so he went in the Mosquito.
CB: Fantastic.
RP: And the Chipmunk followed and brought him back. So that was just something I just remembered. Yeah.
CB: What’s your most memorable time in the RAF would you say?
RP: In the RAF? It must be flying along in a Lancaster and with the Hurricane and Spitfire either side. I enjoyed the Falklands but nothing equal to that feeling of, you know like not many people are going to get to do this. And I feel I’ve been very privileged, I think. Yeah. Absolutely.
CB: So after you qualified you were a junior technician. How did your rank move during your nine years engagement?
RP: Not very much. I obviously qualified as a corporal and then passed my sergeant’s exam. And just as I passed my sergeant’s exam that’s when I decided to leave because came my nine year point and they said to me, ‘Do you want to stay on?’ And I said, ‘No. I don’t think so. My liver can’t cope with it.’ So I decided to leave.
CB: So what was the choice for you when leaving? Of career.
RP: Well, I always knew what I wanted to do and that was to go into a sales role. Only because my mates at school had been, had got a nine year head start on me now. And the chap who was, I sparred against at school he was in a sales role and his area was Asia and Hong Kong. So I thought if he can do it I can. So that’s what I did. So I always knew what I wanted to do. I’d been to college. Become qualified with this Diploma in Business and Finance. And I spent, organised my resettlement time to go and work with a company and take my first sales role which is what I did.
CB: Where? Where was it?
RP: Geographically or —
CB: Well, the company.
RP: The company was called Pitney Bowes. And they sold office equipment and franking machines and things. And, and I went into that role. Technically I’d not even, I was top sales person there after three months and technically I’d not even left the air force. But it was simply because I just did what I was told to do and I was told if you do this, this and this and say these words you’ll be successful. And that proved to be true so I thought, happy days.
CB: And how did that progress?
RP: Very well. Yeah. I did very well with them. Won lots of sales awards. Overseas trips and so on. That branch, and that was working out of the Peterborough branch. We lived in Suffolk at the time. And that [pause] I moved from there to a company called Lex. The car group. But on, I was on the truck side. I was selling contract hire of trucks. And rapidly progressed through the ranks of Lex and to the training division. Trained up new people. Had an affiliation for sales and training and management and within a few years was running their management, leadership and sales training division. Five thousand people. And that’s been my forte ever since.
CB: So how long did you work for them?
RP: I was with Lex for eight years. Left there to set up my own business.
CB: Which is what?
RP: Well, at that time it was my own training company. Doing management training, sales training, leadership. Built that up. Sold it.
CB: What was that called?
RP: Percival Field Associates. And that was because I’d, one of my trainers was Chris Field and I took him from Lex. We set the business up. And since then we’ve had several other businesses that we’ve started or bought and sold.
CB: All in training? Or were you doing other things?
RP: A lot of training. A lot of it very closely geared to recruitment as well because my wife she was a nurse at Nocton Hall when I met her and left the air force to become a midwife. She did midwifery training at Basingstoke. A couple of years later she was gardening, fell out of a tree and broke her back. Which, she was ok. She had to have a laminectomy but it put an end to her midwifery days. So she went into business and rose to some very senior ranks in recruitment. So her recruitment and my training went very well together. So, you know that’s, that’s how it works.
CB: So what’s your business now?
RP: My business now is, my main business is Jigsaw Medical Services. And that’s purely because, you mentioned Oxford Brooke University. I’ve got a nephew who is twenty five at the end of this month. But he trained as a paramedic and, and he comes from Cheshire as well. And while he was training at Oxford Brooke he lived with us here and he was attached to Stoke Mandeville Hospital for his practical. And as he was coming towards the end of his paramedic course, you know, we said to him, ‘What are you going to do? You know. ‘Because your colleagues are going to be qualified as a paramedic and then they’ll do ambulance shifts and work for an ambulance trust. Do you want to do that or shall we pool all our resources and experience and set up a company that does it?’ So that’s what we did. And we financed the start of the business and that was what three and a half years ago and we currently own seventy ambulances, and —
CB: Do you really?
RP: And we, we support various NHS trusts. Yeah. We provide ambulances. Fully crewed with paramedics, ambulance technicians and emergency care assistants. So he’s got the paramedic knowledge. We financed him and its going great guns. We just recently sponsored a sporting event which was a charity event which lasted a month and involved lots of celebrities. So last week we were in Sicily working with Richard Branson and his family because its Richard Branson’s son organised this event. We provided all the medical cover. It was basically, they called it the Strive Challenge. A charity that started at the base of the Matterhorn at Zermatt and went down to Mount Etna in Sicily. All of which had to be under your own steam. So it was hiking, walking, cycling. The core team did the whole run but lots of celebrities went out and did two or three days at a time and they were raising money for this, for this charity called Big Change. So we went out to the start of it at Zermatt five weeks ago and then it ended in Mount Etna last week. So, and that was good for our PR because lots of endorsement.
CB: Huge exposure.
RP: From, from Richard himself. I was put in charge of his, looking after his mum, his ninety three year old mum for the day in Zermatt. His son Sam, his nephew Noah, his daughter Holly, his wife Joan. Yeah. We just moved in with them for a week.
CB: Fantastic.
RP: A bit of an experience. So, so yeah we’re just growing that Jigsaw Medical Services at a rapid rate at the moment. It does training. It does a lot for the military. We employ a lot of military people. People coming out of special forces and being trained up as paramedics themselves. So that’s what I’m heavily involved in now.
CB: How do ex-forces people fare in getting jobs after leaving the forces do you think?
RP: Very well. We have got a lot of ex-forces who are trained since leaving to become paramedics because that’s not recognised within the military. And I think it’s fair to say they are our best ambulance staff. Best paramedics. They really are and that’s because they’re very, they’re just used to being very thorough. Sticking to the rules. Following procedures. And just going the extra mile. And, you know we have a base in Stowe. Now, we, you probably know Stowe Castle. Yeah. That’s one of our offices and we have ten ambulances operating from there around the clock. And in fact I was up there just an hour before you arrived here, talking to some of the crews. And the jobs they get. You know, if you phone 999 you might get a South Central Ambulance turn up. NHS ambulance. Or it might be one of ours. Everybody just assumes it’s the NHS. But we comply. In fact, our standards have to be higher than the Trust anyway to avoid any sort of criticism or anything like that. So our levels of compliance and so on are great. But you wouldn’t know whether it was a Jigsaw Medical Services one or a South Central. And a lot of these people who’ve been the subject of an emergency call out for whatever reason come and visit. Send letters in of thanks and appreciation. And they never knew that actually they’d been looked after and treated by somebody who was still in the SAS or SBS or making that transition to civilian life. They just think it’s a regular, you know ambulance technician or paramedic. But some of these guys have seen more service and trauma then, you know than you would believe.
CB: Yeah.
RP: But they just, they obviously don’t talk about that.
CB: No.
RP: They just get on with the job.
CB: Just a final question. Going back to these engineers you showed around the —
RP: Yeah.
CB: BBMF Lancaster. What did they do after the war? Did you get a feel for how they progressed from the RAF? So the war finished. What did they do?
RP: From what I remember they didn’t do anything spectacular. Both of them. They left. After the war they left the service. I can’t remember exactly what they were doing but it was sort of middle manager roles and careers thereafter. Nothing spectacular. Nothing.
CB: Based on engineering?
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Based on engineering. I think one of the chaps had his own small company but he ran it as a lifestyle company rather than, you know a desire to grow and sell or anything like that. Yeah. They were happy enough and really nice chaps but they were happy to just do more of the same day after day. You know, content with their lot if you like.
CB: Thank you very much. That’s really interesting.
[recording paused]
CB: A bit more memories then.
RP: Yeah. One final memory. We were at Jersey at the end of the display. And we were just leaving Jersey and we were all in our positions on the Lancaster getting ready to go and the Red Arrows took off before us. And I don’t know if you know Jersey.
CB: We’ve been.
RP: You’ve been. But the end of the runway is above the beach and I can’t remember what the beach is called now but the Red Arrows left in groups of three and as they took off they got to the end of the runway and then dropped down out of sight as they dropped down almost to beach level. And then you’d see them reappear again as they start to climb. So it was their bit of showing off which the Red Arrows did on a regular basis obviously. And I remember Jacko Jackson saying, ‘If they can do that so can we.’ And oh my God. And there was a deathly silence. And he said, ‘Right. Rob,’ he said to me, he said, ‘Will your left inboard engine take plus fourteen boost?’ I said, ‘Well [laughs] it sounds like we’re about to find out.’ So that’s what we did. Got to the end of the runway but in a very gently way dropped down a bit, out of sight a bit, and then plus fourteen boost on all four engines and then it climbed out after that. And nervous times. And he said, ‘Yes. Well done, A good engine.’ And I hate to think what would have happened if it had let go at the time.
CB: You’ve raised an important point here because in the war the Lancasters flew with one pilot. And the flight engineer next to him. And the take-off would start with the pilot controlling the throttles and then the engineer would take over. So could you just explain your comments there. So there is the term, ‘Pushing it through the gate.’ Could you just explain how that works and what the boost system is?
RP: Well, it’s, the boost system it just taking it to max RPM. And you know on an aeroplane and an engine that was forty years old at the time was quite a challenge to, it was almost like full throttle and red lining on a car. And that’s what they were doing at the time. But in terms of who controlled that, Squadron Leader Jackson was very much in charge as they say and he was the one. He was the controller. And —
CB: I’m really trying to get at what the aircraft, when it, what is the term, ‘the gate?’ Because in practical terms.
RP: I’m not familiar with that.
CB: Right. Well, so, right so the throttles would work normally up to a particular point and maximum power would be at, ‘the gate’ but you’d push it through to get extra more power. And so I just wondered if that was something you were conscious of.
RP: I’m struggling to think. I do remember —
CB: Because there was a limit to how far and how long you could fly the aircraft through ‘the gate.’
RP: Exactly. Yeah. I just remember that plus —
CB: And why would that be?
RP: Plus fourteen boost was, was the absolute, absolute maximum. As I say it was absolute full throttle in terms of thrust which as you say can only be done for a period of time. And that was an engine that I’d just rebuilt, fitted to the number two and of course the other engine, the other three had all been to plus fourteen boost previously.
CB: Yeah.
RP: This was the first time for this one.
CB: Yeah.
RP: And I just remember looking at the engine as we, as we were flying along thinking I just hope it hangs together [laughs] In fact we weathered out and we had to land at Northolt.
CB: Oh did you? Right.
RP: Because it was foggy. And that was another story because we all had duty free stashed away on the, on the Lancaster from Jersey. And then we had to land at Northolt because of the fog and get the train back to Coningsby and the duty free was confiscated by Customs.
CB: Very upsetting. Just back on the boost. What is the normal boost?
RP: If I remember right I think normal maximum is nine or ten.
CB: Right.
RP: Boost. Yeah.
CB: Ok.
RP: But I could be wrong on that.
CB: I know but it’s just a question of getting a perspective.
RP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Good. And boost means what exactly?
RP: Again, I’m —
CB: We’re talking about superchargers are we?
RP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Right.
RP: Yeah. It’s supercharge. It would be like the reheat on a, on a —
CB: Modern jet.
RP: On a modern jet. That would be the equivalent. You could reheat that.
CB: Yeah. Good analogy. Good. Thank you very much.
RP: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok. Talking about visitors to Coningsby.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RP: To the Battle of Britain Flight. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RP: I do remember we had on more than one occasion visitors from the Guinea Pig Club. People who’d been —
CB: We’ve interviewed two of those.
RP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. They’re the people who had been burned.
RP: Exactly.
CB: Yes.
RP: And that was one that sticks in my memory. From the Guinea Pig Club. And also the famous story about a Spitfire that had taken off with a female person clinging to the tail plane. I remember her coming to visit as well.
CB: Did she?
RP: Yeah. So —
CB: So did she drape herself over the back of the Spitfire or not?
RP: I remember she, she sort of did in her old age. Just for the photographs. But yeah.
CB: Yeah. Terrifying experience.
RP: Some real characters. Yeah.
CB: Because the plane really did take off.
RP: Yeah.
CB: And it really did do the circuit.
RP: It did.
CB: And the pilot didn’t know she was on the back.
RP: Correct. Yeah. But the Guinea Pig Club. I remember those characters. You know, you had to have total respect for those characters.
CB: Did the Guinea Pig have any specific, what sort of specifics did he want to get in to with the Lancaster?
RP: No. They weren’t, they weren’t really doing that. It was more for the, it was just more for their annual, they had an annual visit if I remember right. And they were just treated very well in the mess.
CB: Right.
RP: I think they came along for that as much as, as, you know. All the questions they had they’d asked on previous occasions.
CB: Yes.
RP: They just came for their annual visit.
CB: Smashing. Thanks.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Robert Andrew Percival
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APercivalRA161006
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:22:17 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Second generation
Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Percival was the son of a Second World War pilot and so grew up with an interest in aviation. His application to join the RAF as aircrew was not successful so he chose the engineering / technician route in to the service. He was seconded to the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight where he worked on the aircraft and took part in displays. He had the difficulty of finding spares and new engines for the aircraft but also had the pleasure of meeting veterans from the Second World War who came to visit the Flight.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Falkland Islands
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1979
ground personnel
Hurricane
Lancaster
RAF Coningsby
RAF Halton
RAF Wattisham
Spitfire