4
25
142
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/976/16154/LManningR52870v1.1.pdf
247348241574f6d9c13acee159d9d84f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book
Description
An account of the resource
The Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book covering the period 15 June 1941 to the 16 August 1963. Manning qualified first as an Air Gunner on the 4 July 1941 and second as a flight engineer on the 1 September 1941. He was commissioned on the 4 July 1943 as a Pilot Officer and promoted to acting Flight Lieutenant in April 1944, and again to acting Squadron Leader in March 1946. He reverted to Flight Lieutenant in April 1947 but was made substantive Squadron Leader in April 1956 in the Engineering Branch. He retired 16 August 1963. There are very few entries relating to his time as a Gunner. Most entries are as Engineer.
He was stationed at RAF Stormy Down; RAF Middleton St George; RAF Linton-on-Ouse; RAF Leeming, RAF Aqir, RAF Fayid, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Snaith, RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Finingley, RAF Scampton, RAF Binbrook, RAF Henlow, RAF Seletar, RAF LLandow, RAF Swaton Morley, and RAF Medmenham. He flew in the following types manly as Engineer ; Arvo Tutor, Armstrong Whitworth Ensign, Handley Page Hannibal, Hawker Hart, Handley Page Heyford, Douglas DC 4 and 5, Handley Page Harrow, Handley Page Halifax, Miles Magister, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Avro Lancaster, Fairey Battle, Airspeed Oxford, de Havilland Mosquito, Avro Lincoln, Handley Page Hastings, Gloster Meteor, Avro Anson, Vickers Valletta, Vickers Wellington, Percival Prentice, Bristol Britannia and Handley Page Victor. He flew with 10 Sqaudron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron. He was awarded the DFC. Pilots he flew with were Richards, Sobinski, Lewin, Turnbull, Hacking, Godfrey, Trip, Peterson, Lloyd, Bell, O’Driscoll, Allen, Declerk, Gribben, Gibsons, Wyatt, Clarke, Snow, Hardy, Haydon, McDonald, Murray, Jones, Dennis, Fisher, Connolly, Cheshire, Woolnough, Cat, McIntosh, Pope, Alcock, Smythe, Williams, Freeman, McKnight, Gillchrist, Moore, Faulkner, Carr, Espie, Brown, Price, Wiltshire, Spence, Symmons, Kirk, King, Burgess, Wilson, Pugh, Johnson, Reynolds, Roberts, Ringer, Minnis, Lowe, Everett, Renshaw-Dibb, Mathers, Sullings, Flower, Jarvis, Chopping, Widmer, Yates, Day, Spires, Huggins, Watts, Haycock, Owens, Liversidge, George , Banfield, Hunt, Porter, Goodman, Ayres, Shannon, Laytham, Lord, Rhys and Blundy,
War time operations were to Sharnhorst and Gneisenau, Cologne, St Nazaire, Kiel, Paris, Aysen Fjord, Terpitz, Trondheim, Hamburg, Mannheim, Essen, Osnabruck, Tobruk, Heraklion, Maleme, Lens, Colline Beaumont, Bourg-Leopold, Trappes, Mont-Fleury, Abbeville, Nucourt, Le Harve, Boulogne. Post war destinations were to RAF Netheravon, RAF Hemswell, RAF Scampton, RAF Lindholm, RAF Marnham, RAF St Eval, RAF Aldergrove, RAF Wyton, RAF Stradishall, RAF Binbrook, RAF Bagington, RAF Waddington, RAF Topcliffe, RAF Upwood, Kai Tak, Changi, RAF Pembrey, RAF Llandow, RAF Filton, and RAF Bruggen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Manning, Reg
Reginald Manning
R Manning
Description
An account of the resource
Six items, concerning Pilot Officer Reg Manning DFC (567647 Royal air Force) including his flying log book and photographs. He served as an air gunner and flight engineer with 10 Squadron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Manning.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Manning, R
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Reg Manning's observer's and air gunner's flying log book
Description
An account of the resource
The Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book covering the period 15 June 1941 to the 16 August 1963. Manning qualified first as an Air Gunner on the 4 July 1941 and second as a flight engineer on the 1 September 1941. He was commissioned on the 4 July 1943 as a Pilot Officer and promoted to acting Flight Lieutenant in April 1944, and again to acting Squadron Leader in March 1946. He reverted to Flight Lieutenant in April 1947 but was made substantive Squadron Leader in April 1956 in the Engineering Branch. He retired 16 August 1963. There are very few entries relating to his time as a Gunner. Most entries are as Engineer. He was stationed at RAF Stormy Down; RAF Middleton St George; RAF Linton-on-Ouse, RAF Leeming, RAF Aqir, RAF Fayid, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Snaith, RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Finningley, RAF Scampton, RAF Binbrook, RAF Henlow, RAF Seletar, RAF LLandow, RAF Swanton Morley, and RAF Medmenham. He flew in the following types manly as Engineer; Avro Tutor, Armstrong Whitworth Ensign, Handley Page Hannibal, Hawker Hart, Handley Page Heyford, Douglas DC 4 and 5, Handley Page Harrow, Handley Page Halifax, Miles Magister, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Avro Lancaster, Fairey Battle, Airspeed Oxford, de Havilland Mosquito, Avro Lincoln, Handley Page Hastings, Gloster Meteor, Avro Anson, Vickers Valletta, Vickers Wellington, Percival Prentice, Bristol Britannia and Handley Page Victor. He flew with 10 Squadron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron. He was awarded the DFC. His pilots on operations were Warrant Officer Peterson, Flight sergeant Whyte, Warrant Officer O'Driscoll, Sergeant Declerk, Flight Sergeant Clarke, Sergeant Gibbons, Sergeant Wyatt, Flight Lieutenant Freeman, Flight Sergeant McKnight, Pilot Officer Gillchrist, Flight Sergeant Moore, Warrant Officer Skinner, Warrant Officer Faulkner, Flying Officer Carr and Flight Sergeant Espie. War time operations were to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, Cologne, St Nazaire, Kiel, Paris, Aasen Fjord, Tirpitz, Trondheim, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Mannheim, Essen, Osnabruck, Tobruk, Heraklion, Maleme, Lens, Colline Beaumont, Bourg-Leopold, Trappes, Mont Fleury, Abbeville, Nucourt, Le Havre, Boulogne, Gibraltar, Kasfereet. Post war destinations were to RAF Netheravon, RAF Hemswell, RAF Scampton, RAF Lindholme, RAF Marnham, RAF St Eval, RAF Aldergrove, RAF Wyton, RAF Stradishall, RAF Binbrook, RAF Baginton, RAF Waddington, RAF Topcliffe, RAF Upwood, Kai Tak, Changi, RAF Pembrey, RAF Llandow, RAF Filton, and RAF Bruggen.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1950
1951
1952
1953
1954
1955
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1963
1942-02-12
1942-02-14
1942-02-15
1942-02-16
1942-02-22
1942-02-23
1942-02-26
1942-02-27
1942-03-03
1942-03-04
1942-03-30
1942-03-31
1942-04-27
1942-04-28
1942-04-29
1942-05-03
1942-05-04
1942-05-06
1942-05-07
1942-05-19
1942-05-20
1942-05-30
1942-05-31
1942-06-01
1942-06-02
1942-06-03
1942-06-04
1942-06-05
1942-06-19
1942-06-20
1942-06-22
1942-07-11
1942-07-12
1942-07-18
1942-07-19
1942-07-20
1942-07-21
1942-07-24
1942-07-25
1942-09-03
1942-09-15
1942-09-16
1942-09-17
1942-09-18
1942-09-29
1942-09-30
1942-10-05
1942-10-06
1942-10-12
1942-10-13
1942-10-18
1942-10-19
1942-10-23
1942-10-24
1942-10-27
1942-10-29
1942-11-05
1942-11-07
1942-11-23
1943-07-24
1943-07-26
1943-07-27
1943-07-29
1943-08-01
1944-05-10
1944-05-11
1944-05-12
1944-05-27
1944-05-31
1944-06-01
1944-06-06
1944-06-11
1944-06-12
1944-06-23
1944-06-24
1944-07-15
1944-07-17
1944-09-11
1944-09-17
1945-06-19
1944-06-05
1944-07-18
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Egypt
Middle East--Palestine
Singapore
China--Hong Kong
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
England--Norfolk
England--Bedfordshire
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Suffolk
England--Warwickshire
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Belgium
Belgium--Leopoldsburg
Greece--Crete
Greece--Ērakleion
Libya
Libya--Tobruk
Norway
Norway--Trondheim
France
France--Saint-Nazaire
France--Paris
France--Lens
France--Colline-Beaumont
France--Soligny-la-Trappe
France--Abbeville
France--Nucourt
France--Le Havre
France--Boulogne-sur-Mer
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Essen
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Stuttgart
Gibraltar
Norway--Aasen Fjord
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Northern Ireland
North Africa
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
Scotland--Shetland
China
Greece
Great Britain
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Durham (County)
Greece
Greece--Maleme
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LManningR52870v1
10 Squadron
1652 HCU
1668 HCU
462 Squadron
51 Squadron
614 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
air sea rescue
aircrew
Anson
Battle
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
Cook’s tour
Distinguished Flying Cross
flight engineer
Gneisenau
Halifax
Harrow
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
Magister
Me 110
Meteor
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oxford
promotion
RAF Aqir
RAF Binbrook
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Filton
RAF Finningley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Henlow
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Honington
RAF Kasfereet
RAF Leeming
RAF Lindholme
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Marham
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Medmenham
RAF Middleton St George
RAF Pembrey
RAF Scampton
RAF Snaith
RAF St Eval
RAF Stormy Down
RAF Stradishall
RAF Swanton Morley
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Upwood
RAF Waddington
RAF Wyton
Scharnhorst
tactical support for Normandy troops
Tirpitz
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
Whitley
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wright, John Alfred
J A Wright
Description
An account of the resource
21 items. The collection concerns John Alfred Wright (1913 - 1986, 563242 Royal Air Force). It contains items associated with his marriage to Kathleen Burchell (Kay) several photographs, and notes about his service at RAF Graveley.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John M Wright and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-01-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wright, JA
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] JOHN ALFRED WRIGHT. [/underlined]
13 STIRLING STREET
BUCKLAND
PORTSMOUTH
BORN 4/5/1913 – 1915/16
109 STATION ROAD
COPNOR
PORTSMOUTH
1915/16 – 1929
JOINED R.A.F.
APPRENTICE AT RAF HALTON.
15/1/1929 – 12/10/1948
THE OLD MANOR HOUSE
PAPWORTH ST. AGENS
HUNTINGDON
1944 – 1945 (10 MONTHS)
109 STATION ROAD
COPNOR
PORTSMOUTH
9/1945 – 1946 (9/12 MONTHS.)
16 JENKINS GROVE
COPNOR
PORTSMOUTH
1946 – 1950
65 DELHI STREET
FRATTON
PORTSMOUTH
1950 – 1953
234 LOCKSWAY ROAD
MILTON
PORTSMOUTH
1953 – 1987
[page break]
[underlined] JOHN ALFRED WRIGHT. [/underlined]
[underlined] ENLISTED IN ROYAL AIR FORCE – [underlined] 15TH JANUARY 1929
[underlined] DISCHARGED [/underlined] 12TH OCTOBER 1948
[underlined] SERVICE NUMBER – [/underlined] 563242
[underlined] SERVED AT:- [/underlined]
3YRS 15/1/1929 – 5/1/1932 RAF HALTON, BUCKS.
2YRS 9M 5/1/1932 – 1/10/1934 RAF CALSHOT, HANTS.
2Y 7M 1/10/1934 – 6/5/1937824 (FSR) SQDN – H.M.S. HERMES.
VISITED – PORTSMOUTH, GIBRALTA, MALTA PORT SAID, SUEZ CANAL, ADEN, COLOMBO, SINGAPORE, HONG KONG, AMOY, WEI-HAI-WEI, CHINWANGTAO, PORT ARTHUR, KOBE, NAGASAKI, KOGOSHIMA, DAIREN, CHEMULO, TSINGTAO, SHANGHAI, ILOILO, MACASSAR, BALI, SURABAYA, SINGAPORE, COLOMBO, ADEN, SUEZ CANAL, PORT SAID, MALTA, GIBRALTA, PORTSMOUTH.
3Y 8M 6/5/1937 – 7/1/1941 12 SQDN HE. (IN THE FIELD)
5/1937 – 5/1939 “ ANDOVER - HANTS
5/1939 – 9/1939 “ BICESTER – OXON
9/1939 – 12/1939 “ BERRY-AU-BAC – FRANCE
12/1939 – 5/1940 “ AMIFONTAINE – FRANCE
5/1940 – 6/1940 “ ECHEMINES – FRANCE
6/1940 – “ SOUGE – FRANCE
6/1940 – 7/1940 “ FINNINGLEY – YORKS.
7/1940 – 8/1940 “ BINBROOK – LINCS.
8/1940 – “ THORNEY ISLAND – HANTS.
8/1940 – 7/1/1941 “ EASTCHURCH – KENT.
1YRS 7M- 7/1/1941 – 8/9/1942 35 SQDN RAF LINTON ON OUSE – YORKS.
2YRS 6M. 8/9/1942 – 3/3/1945 35 SQDN RAF GRAVELEY – HUNTS.
[page break]
[underlined] H.M.S. HERMES. [/underlined]
NOV. 1934 PORTSMOUTH
GIBRALTA
MALTA
PORT SAID, SUES [sic] CANAL,
ADEN
COLUMBO (CEYLON)
[deleted] JAN [/deleted] SINGAPORE
4/1935 HONG KONG.
AMOY
7/1935 WEI-HAI-WEI
CHINWANGTAO
[deleted] 5/1936 [/deleted] PORT ARTHUR (ROYJUN)
[inserted] 5/1936 [/inserted] KOBE, [inserted] 5/1936 [/inserted] NAGASAKI, [inserted] [deleted] 5/193 [/deleted] [/inserted] KOGOSHIMA, [inserted] 7/1936 [/inserted] DAIREN
CHEMULO (KOREA)
[inserted] 8/1936 [/inserted] TSINGTAO – [inserted] 10/1936 [/inserted] SHANGHAI, [inserted] 10/1936 [/inserted] AMOY
[inserted] 1/1937 [/inserted] ILOILO (PHILIPPINES)
[deleted] CELEBES ( [/deleted] MACASSAR – (CELEBES)
BALI
SURABAYA (JAVA)
SINGAPORE
COLOMBO (CEYLON)
ADEN, [deleted] POR [/deleted] SUEZ CANAL
PORT SAID
MALTA
GIBRALTA
[page break]
22/7/1940
1/1/1943
8/6/1944
1/1/1946
[page break]
MENTIONED IN DESPATCHES
22/7/1940
1/1/1943
8/6/1944
1/1/1946
6/5/1937 [underlined] 12 SQDN [/underlined] ANDOVER HANTS.
5/1939 BICESTER OXON
8/1939 BERRY-AU-BAC, FRANCE
12/1939 AMIFONTAINE, FRANCE
JAN/FEB 1940 DET. PERPIGNAN
5/1940 ECHEMINES, FRANCE
6/1940 SOUGE, FRANCE
6/1940 FINNINGLEY, YORKS
7/1940 BINBROOK LINCS
8/1940 THORNEY ISLAND HANTS.
8/1940 EASTCHURCH, KENT
9/1940 /9/1942 BINBROOK, LINCS.
[deleted] [underlined] H.M.S. HERME [/underlined] NOV 1934
GIBRALTA
MALTA
PORT SAID SUEZ CANAL RED SEA
ADEN
[inserted] 1934 [/inserted] COLUMBO (SRI LANKA)
[inserted] 1/1936 [/inserted] SINGAPORE
[inserted] 4/1935 3/1936 [/inserted] HONG KONG – AMOY – [inserted] 7/1935 [/inserted] WEI-HAI-WEI, CHINWANGTAO
[inserted] PORT ARTHUR (RYOJUN) 1936 – DAIREN – 7/1936 [/inserted] JAPAN – KOBE, NAGASAKI, KOGOSHIMA [deleted] CHINWANGTAO
CHINA – WEI-HAI-WEI, CHINWANGTAO [/deleted]
KOREA – CHEMULPO
CHINA – [inserted] 8/1936 [/inserted] TSINGTAO, [deleted] AMOY [/deleted] [inserted] 10/1936 [/inserted] SHANGHAI, [inserted] 10/936 [/inserted] AMOY
PHILIPPINES – [inserted] 1/1937 [/inserted] ILOILO
CELEBES. – MACASSAR
BALI
JAVA – SURABAYA
SINGAPORE
COLOMBO
ADEN, PORT SAID, MALTA, GIB. [/deleted]
[page break]
JOINED RAF. 15/[deleted]1/129 [/deleted] 1929 [underlined] NO. 563242 [/underlined]
[deleted] JOINED [/deleted] RAF 4/5/1931 19YR 9M.
3YR 15/1/1929 RAF HALTON
2YR 9M 5/1/1932 CALSHOT
2YR 6M 1/10/1934 824 (FSR) SQN HMS HERMES
1M 1/4/1937 [deleted] 12 [/deleted] H.M.S. HERMES
3YR 8M 6/5/1937 12 SQN HE. IN THE FIELD
1YR 7M 7/1/1941 35 SQN RAF LINTON ON OUSE YORKS.
2YR 6M. 8/1942 “ RAF GRAVELEY HUNTS
10M 3/3/1945 SHQ. GRAVELEY.
10D 14/1/1946 LPDC
15D 24/1/1946 ACSEA
1YR 2M. 11/2/1946 H.Q.(U) NO. 1 GROUP NO. 1 COMMUNICATIONS FLIGHT PERSHAWAR
2W 29/3/1947 BRD WORLI
5W 15/4/1947 UK.
2M 20/5/1947 IPHU
3M 5/7/1947 8042SE
5M 15/10/1947 ASWDU THORNEY ISLAND.
5M 26/5/1948 ASWDU HQ. BALLYKELLY
12/10/1948 DISCHARGE.
AIRCRAFT APPRENTICE [deleted] 31/12/31 [/deleted] 15/1/29
AC2 13/130
AC1
CORPORAL 1/1/39
TEMP SARGEANT [sic] 1/12/40
TEMP F. SARGEANT [sic] 1/9/42
SUBSTA F “ 2/47
LS & GC MEDAL
1939 – 45 STAR.
DEFENCE MEDAL
WAR MEDAL 1939 – 45
[page break]
10M 3/3/1945 – 14/1/1946 SHQ. RAF GRAVELEY – HUNTS.
10D 14/1/1946 – 24/1/1946 LPDC – INDIA
15D 24/1/1946 – 11/2/1946 ACSEA – INDIA
1YR. 2M 11/2/1946 – 29/3/1947 H.Q (U) NO. 1 GROUP – NO 1. COMMUNICATIONS FLIGHT, PERSHAWAR, INDIA.
2W 29/3/1947 – 15/4/1947 BRD, WORLI. (TRANSIT CAMP) INDIA BOMBAY
5W 15/4/1947 – 20/5/1947 U.K.
2M 20/5/1947 – 5/7/1947 IPHU.
3M 5/7/1947 – 15/10/1947 8042SE
5M 15/10/1947 – 26/5/1948 ASWDU. THORNEY ISLAND. HANTS
5M. 26/5/1948 – 12/10/1948 ASWDU HQ. BALLYKELLY, N/IRELAND
15/1/1929 – AIRCRAFT APPRENTICE
13/1/1930 – AC2.
- AC1.
1/1/1939 – CORPORAL
1/12/1940 – TEMP SARGEANT. [sic]
1/9/1942 – TEMP. FLIGHT SARGEANT. [sic]
2/1947 – SUBSTANTIVE FLIGHT SARGEANT. [sic]
LONG SERVICE & GOOD CONDUCT MEDAL
1939 – 1945 STAR
DEFENCE MEDAL
1939 – 1945 WAR MEDAL
MENTIONED IN DESPATCHES –
22/7/1940
1/1/1943
8/6/1944
1/1/1946
[page break]
12 SQDN
HAWKER HINDS – 1938 – FAIREY BATTLES
35 SQDN
HANDLEY PAGE HALIFAX, 3/1944 – LANCASTERS.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
John Alfred Wright's life story
Description
An account of the resource
Brief but detailed notes of John Alfred Wright's life and Royal Air Force service, places he lived and the dates, stations that he served at, ranks held, medals awarded.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Eight hand written pages
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MWrightJA563242-180130-010001, MWrightJA563242-180130-010002, MWrightJA563242-180130-010003, MWrightJA563242-180130-010004, MWrightJA563242-180130-010005, MWrightJA563242-180130-010006, MWrightJA563242-180130-010007,MWrightJA563242-180130-010008
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
12 Squadron
35 Squadron
Battle
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Lancaster
RAF Bicester
RAF Binbrook
RAF Eastchurch
RAF Finningley
RAF Graveley
RAF Halton
RAF Linton on Ouse
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1212/11984/LSmithEW174520v2.1.pdf
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Smith, Ernest William
Smith, E W
John Albert Smith
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. The collection concerns Flying Officer Ernest William Smith DFC (174520, Royal Air Force). It contains three log books and service materials, photographs of aircrew, a letter of appreciation regarding the return to England of a battle damaged aircraft and material associated with the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross. He completed a tour of operations as a pilot with 12 Squadron from RAF Wickenby and also served with 144 Squadron, 16 Operational Training Unit, and Flying Training School.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Lorraine Smith and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Smith, JA
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-13
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ernest Smith's pilot's flying log book. Two
Description
An account of the resource
Pilot’s flying log book for Warrant Officer Ernest Smith, from 3 April 1943 to 29 June 1944, recording operations and instructional duties. He served at RAF Hixon, RAF Blyton, RAF Grimsby (Waltham), RAF Binbrook, RAF Wickenby, RAF Bircotes, RAF Church Broughton, RAF Finningley and RAF Lulsgate Bottom. Aircraft flown were Wellington, Lancaster Mk 1 and Lancaster Mk 3. Records a total of 23 operations (3 cut short) as a pilot with 100 Squadron, 460 Squadron, 12 Squadron and 626 Squadron, on the following targets in France, Germany and Italy: Berlin, Cologne, Dusseldorf, Essen, Frankfurt, Gelsenkirchen, Hamburg, Hanover, Kassel, La Rochelle (gardening), Mannheim, Milan, Nuremburg, Remscheid and Rheydt. Also details duties as a qualified flying instructor in various training units, and includes several pilot and instructor assessments as being 'above the average'. Other notes include: 'SEPT 8TH 1943 ITALY SIGNS ARMISTICE', 'C FLT 12 SQD FORMED 626 SQD WICKENBY' and 'AWARDED THE DFC'. Also contains memorabilia including telegrams from July 1941 about serious injuries received in an air accident and a letter from 1950 confirming the award of the Air Efficiency Award.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LSmithEW174520v2
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
France
Germany
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Derbyshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Somerset
England--Yorkshire
Italy--Po River Valley
France--La Rochelle
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Essen
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Gelsenkirchen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Kassel
Germany--Mannheim
Germany--Nuremberg
Germany--Remscheid
Germany--Rheydt
Italy--Milan
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1943-07-06
1943-07-07
1943-07-08
1943-07-09
1943-07-10
1943-07-24
1943-07-25
1943-07-26
1943-07-29
1943-07-30
1943-07-31
1943-08-09
1943-08-10
1943-08-11
1943-08-12
1943-08-13
1943-08-27
1943-08-28
1943-08-30
1943-08-31
1943-09-01
1943-09-03
1943-09-04
1943-09-05
1943-09-06
1943-09-23
1943-09-24
1943-09-25
1943-10-03
1943-10-04
1943-10-05
1943-10-08
1943-10-09
1943-10-18
1943-10-19
1943-11-03
1943-11-04
1943-11-18
1943-11-19
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
David Leitch
100 Squadron
12 Squadron
144 Squadron
16 OTU
1662 HCU
18 OTU
30 OTU
460 Squadron
626 Squadron
air sea rescue
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Distinguished Flying Cross
Hampden
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 1
Lancaster Mk 3
Magister
mine laying
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Blyton
RAF Church Broughton
RAF Finningley
RAF Grimsby
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hixon
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Wickenby
training
Wellington
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wynn, Ian Archer
I A Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
146 Items. Collection concerns Pilot Officer Ian Archer Wynn (1908 - 1943, 146838 Royal Air Force). After training as ground crew he remustered as a flight engineer and flew operations with 100 Squadron. He was killed 25 May 1943 on an operation from RAF Grimsby to Düsseldorf. Collection consists of a diary, a memorial book, an official report on what was his final operation, photographs of his crew, his family and the squadron as well as official correspondence from Air Ministry and British Red Cross, letters of condolence and a large number of letters from Ian Wynn to his wife Kathleen. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Patrick Anthony Wynn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Ian Archer Wynn is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/126116/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wynn, IA
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Envelope
[Postmark]
GRIMSBY
LINCS
26 MAR 1943
[/Postmark]
[2 1/2d stamp]
Mrs K. Wynn,
Sunny Brae,
Norley,
Frodsham,
Warrington,
Lancs.
[page break]
Reverse of envelope, no marks.
[page break]
Waltham
Grimsby
24/3/43
My Darling
Just a little note to let you know I have written to the G.A. & returned them receipt Well one more trip done. We went to ST Nazaire on Monday it was a good trip & we got a good photo again. Scarcely any opposition at all. Just how I like it.
Did I write you yesterday I think I did? If I did I [smudged] probably [/smudged] told you that we had been to ST Nazaire anyway. Time is so funny I am damned if I know what day it is at all now. Still Ill [sic] start this & leave it open in case you write tomorrow
I only know that my leave
[page break]
seems to be a hell of a while coming round this time. I seem to have been back on duty ages this time. Gosh & I do miss you so. More after each leave than before I think. It is nearly six years since the great day (or night) & when we got married. I thought that after 15 years of digs I would at last settle in my own home. And out of that six years all we have had was about 2 yrs [years] I am getting browned off with it I shall be bloody glad when the whole show is finished.
My Boys too. I am missing all there [sic] little devilments. Still when one thinks of Harold Ashton, & Bert Burgess I suppose I have a [corrected] hell [/corrected] of a lot to be thankful for too.
Well my dear I must close now & get some shut eye
Good night darling. X X
[underlined] 24/3/43 [/underlined]
[page break]
Well dearest no letter so Ill [sic] post this off.
I shall not be flying tonight again so I am going to Binbrook (our Parent Station) to get some blue changed if Pos.
All my love dear
Yours Always
Ian
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Ian Wynn to his wife
Description
An account of the resource
He writes about flying to St. Nazaire. He is not flying tonight and is going to RAF Binbrook. He misses his wife and mentions that they have been married for six years. Catches up with family news.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-03-24
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Three page handwritten letter and envelope
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EWynnIAWynnK430324
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
France
France--Saint-Nazaire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Warrington
England--Cheshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-03-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ian Archer Wynn
bombing
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Binbrook
RAF Grimsby
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wynn, Ian Archer
I A Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
146 Items. Collection concerns Pilot Officer Ian Archer Wynn (1908 - 1943, 146838 Royal Air Force). After training as ground crew he remustered as a flight engineer and flew operations with 100 Squadron. He was killed 25 May 1943 on an operation from RAF Grimsby to Düsseldorf. Collection consists of a diary, a memorial book, an official report on what was his final operation, photographs of his crew, his family and the squadron as well as official correspondence from Air Ministry and British Red Cross, letters of condolence and a large number of letters from Ian Wynn to his wife Kathleen. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Patrick Anthony Wynn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Ian Archer Wynn is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/126116/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wynn, IA
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Envelope torn along the top. [missing] addressee [/missing]
Sunny Brae,
Norley,
Frodsham,
Warrington,
Lancs.
[2 1/2d postage stamp]
[page break]
[Reverse of envelope]
[inserted vertically]
7. 4
[underlined] 3 [/underlined]
12
74
[underlined] 38 [/underlined]
2
1.20
74
[underlined] 38 [/underlined]
13
[page break]
[underlined] RAF [/underlined]
Wickenby
12/12/42.
Dearest,
Many thanks for your [sic] letter this morning. I must say I dont [sic] like the news in it. & I am not taking it either I have been to see the Pardre [sic] tonight who seems to think I have a good chance of getting at least half of it back. He wants to know what your weekly allowane [sic] is (Total) & what commitments you have. I.E. Rent etc. The amount of any outstanding Bills [underlined] Dr & Colchester) [/underlined] etc. How much were we paying Carters for furniture was it 3/- or 3/6 week? Please let
[page break]
me know immediately by return. In the mean time you might write to the War Service Grant Dept? or whatever it is asking why you should suffer this reduction as you still have the same expenses etc. just to see what they say.
Oh! And another thing I only received £4-16-0 for a months [sic] money so I have to go to Binbrook to see about that too
I am utterly and thoroughly disgusted with the whole Bloody Show.
[page break]
[underlined] 3 [/underlined]
Swines [sic] working in [corrected] factories [/corrected] etc can have their liberty safety & home life; and on top of that get paid for it too whereas mugs like me the more we do the less we get.
The Bloody Govt [sic][Government] Pay a pilot 13/6 a day then take 3/= day back income tax. The trouble is they still get mugs to do [underlined] it [/underlined]
It is time the papers got the Right end of the stick and less of the blarney about “What our [underlined] Wonderful [/underlined] Airforce is doing
[page break]
[corrected] Today [/corrected] here was an [corrected] example [/corrected] There is a Sergeant Pilot who has finished his operational flying and is due for a rest up.
He was [corrected] moaning [/corrected] like hell about his pay but within half an hour he was playing hell with the C.O because he could not get him any more operational flying. What can you do when chaps are as keen as that? Well dearest I hope I have not moaned too much but in any case Ill [sic] see you don’t loose [sic]
[page break]
[inserted] 5 [/inserted]
by it. Actually there is a net gain of 4d a day on our joint income but with my increased expences [sic] I am about a [underlined] Shilling a day [/underlined] down to what I was as an L.A.C.
I bought another Pair of Pyjamas yesterday so if you get any coupons dont [sic] get any for me use the coupons on yourself & kids.
I will write to Bert over the weekend but I dont [sic] feel like writing to anyone at the moment, now How are the boys?
[page break]
Bless em! I have not had a chance to get into Lincoln yet. I will see what I can do when I get a chance.
Will write my return.
All my love
Yours Always
[underlined] Ian [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Ian Wynn to his wife
Description
An account of the resource
Discusses disturbing financial matters and complains about RAF remuneration and the way they are treated.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-12-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Six page handwritten letter and envelope
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EWynnIAWynnK421212
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Lancashire
England--Warrington
England--Cheshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-12-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ian Archer Wynn
military service conditions
RAF Binbrook
RAF Wickenby
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1167/11733/ATrotmanPJ180604.2.mp3
4c11d1e2b9ac76fcd78b3c8a985d3116
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Trotman, Percival
Percival John Trotman
P J Trotman
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Percival Trotman DFC and bar. (b. 1921 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 150 and 692 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Trotman, PJ
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DH: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Dawn Hughes, the interviewee is Mr John Trotman. The interview is taking place at Mr Trotman’s home in Shrewsbury, Shropshire, on the 4th of June 2018, and thank you John for agreeing to talk to me today. So can we start off with, if you remember last time we talked about the lead up to joining the RAF so what made you join the RAF? How did it come about?
JT: Well the, obviously there was, everybody was being taken into the services, Army, Navy, Air Force. And I considered the Army but, you could volunteer of course, if you volunteered you would be taken instantly, but otherwise you would be called up, so I felt I should volunteer. So I considered the Army, and I thought about the first world war and I thought there is no way if we get into trench warfare that’s, that’s something I don’t want to be involved in. Navy, I‘m not a very good swimmer so if I’d off into the ocean in the mid Atlantic I’m not going to get very far, so I decided the Air Force was obviously the thing to do, and in any case they had a much nicer uniform. So that was my decision to join the air force. And so, I went and applied at Reading, I was given an interview and then subsequently I was sent up to an airfield in the Midlands where I spent twenty four hours going through a tremendous [emphasis] number of tests. Overnight we slept in a bell tent, all with our feet towards the middle and er, the food wasn’t too bad and then we came home. And then I had to sit and wait, to be called up. And in fact from the time I was there, which was in May 1940 I wasn’t called up until the September, which was quite amazing, first, first of September. I was called up to, went down to Torquay for two weeks and then six weeks in Aberystwyth for basic training. And life changed of course, no longer [laugh] was life a sort of semi-leisurely situation, you were under military orders and of course your life changed completely, of course, and I wasn’t unhappy about that. Obviously like all the others we were keen to go through the training and get on with the job.
DH: Okay. So, what was the initial training like? Can you tell me a bit more about that.
JT: Initial training at Torquay well, you know, it was sort of getting your hands and feet in the right direction and doing all the right things according to drill, and of course you quickly adapt to that. So it was a question of drilling, marching up and down and doing about turns, and you know, there was responding to orders which was what it really was all about; time passed very quickly, until eventually we got our posting, which was to Aberystwyth. To do that we had to go by train, so we got on the train at Torquay but the train got stopped just outside Bristol because there was an air raid going on and we went across and stopped outside Cardiff because there was an air raid going on, and then this train chuffed its way right up to West Wales coast; took a total from midnight when we embarked on the train to Torquay till three o’clock on the following afternoon, on a train with no food, no toilets, we got packed sandwiches, but no toilets so every time the train stopped at a station there was a mass city central in the toilets! [Laugh] Anyway we finally got into Aberystwyth and then we got oriented of course. Where it started, you were out of bed at seven in the morning, in fact you were doing PE at seven o’clock in the morning, so you had to be ready for that, and you did that for half an hour each morning on the sea front, then from half past seven you went back, changed and you had to be at breakfast within quarter of an hour, quarter to eight for breakfast, breakfast finished at quarter past eight, on parade at half past eight, then march to the classrooms and spent all day in the classrooms. That happened every [emphasis] day, except on Saturdays we were, eased off wee bit; we still had things to do on Saturday, but you got Saturday afternoon, and Sunday, except Sunday we had to church parade, in which case I decided, I was Church of England, but I decided I’d try the Catholics and the Jews and everybody else [laugh] so I went to their services as well. That was interesting. At the end of the course, [clock chime] you had to pass and you had to reach a certain standard, and if you didn’t pass that standard then you were out, or as I say you were moved to other things, ground jobs within the air force.
DH: So at that point in time had you, had your trade been established?
JT: Sorry, had it?
DH: Had it been established that you were going to be a pilot or - ?
JT: Oh yes, once you had reached a certain level to their satisfaction yes, you were destined to be a pilot, considered so.
DH: So did you [emphasis] choose that, or did they choose you to do that?
JT: I wanted to be a pilot and I didn’t know until long afterwards that apparently I was rated above average, through sheer hard work and it was that I think got me through to what I wanted to do. That was what I was posted to, Coventry, just outside Coventry.
DH: Can you tell me what happened then, ’cause I believe you had a part in the clear up in the Coventry bombing.
JT: Yes, I was posted in on the, Coventry, the airfield just outside Coventry and that night there was an air raid warning, so we went down into the shelters and of course that was the night that Coventry was blitzed. So the next morning we were loaded into trucks to what, taken into Coventry to see what we could do to help in any way at all. To try and help the military and the civil authority maintain some sort of order and help clear up the worst situations. And the worst situations were something, I don’t think you want to, talk about very much. For example the Owen Owen’s department store had a whole lot of people in it when the air raid started.
DH: It did.
JT: So they were all bundled down to the basement; it was a shelter, but unfortunately Owen Owens got a direct hit: the whole building collapsed in on itself and they were buried, alive and of course I think over eighty people died in that alone. So you can understand that some of the other situations were [sniff] not very nice. So aft, at the end of that day I think we’d had enough and glad to, well right get on with your training now and that’s what we did.
DH: Yeah.
JT: So, that had certainly instilled in me [emphasis] the effects of an air raid at first hand and I thought, like everybody else, we’ve got to give it to them back, they’ve got to know what happens under these circumstances you just can’t do this willy nilly. Obviously they were after targets in Coventry because there was a high concentration of companies: tool makers, aircraft part makers, I think there were six main manufacturers virtually in the centre of Coventry because that’s the way the city became built. And that’s why the centre really, the centre of Coventry got such a battering.
DH: Yeah. I can, I can understand why that would make you think, yeah, I’ve got to do that back, yeah. So from, so that’s your initial training so how did you come to start then, next? You went to Cranwell, didn’t you.
JT: Yes, basic training just outside Coventry then went on to advanced training on twin engined Oxfords at South Cerny in Gloucestershire, at the end of that course they then decided, which way, you qualified for your wings, so you were a qualified pilot at that stage. They then decided your future. Most other people were sent to either to a squadron at that time of the war, or for operational training unit where, for heavier aircraft, at that time Stirling. But for some reason I was sent instead, again I was above average on the course, and I was sent to Cranwell to train as a flying instructor, which surprised me no end. And that meant three weeks on, learning to instruct on the bi-plane and another three weeks learning to instruct on twin engined Oxfords, and it was hard work because there was so much to do. You had to go through twenty eight subjects on each aeroplane, and you had to not only learn that but you also had to espouse this, that as an instructor and I didn’t know how to do that, so it was really hard work for six weeks. While we were there incidentally we suddenly heard a funny noise, rushed to the windows to look outside, and saw an aeroplane take off and it’s got no propeller, this was absolutely amazing! How actually does an aeroplane fly without a propeller? This was of course the basic first jet, so quite amazing sight to see, but, er filled us with wonder and tremendous encouragement I think we’d got the thing that might end the war, for flying anyway, did help, but not till much later, had to be developed. Anyway after that I went back to Shawbury as a flying instructor.
DH: So you were on Oxford Airspeeds there?
JT: Yes.
DH: So, so at this point you’re, you’d done training, you’re an instructor, but you hadn’t seen active service.
JT: Oh no. I stayed in Shawbury for nine months and quite frankly I got to the point where enough was enough, I felt. You trained a few people to fly the plane and then subsequently supervised later in lessons as you went through it. Then the next course came in and you started all over again, and then the next course came in and you went through it all again, very repetitive. And it tested your flying skill at times, because for example the undercarriage and flap levers on the early Airspeed Oxfords were side by side, and if in fact you wanted to, took off an aeroplane for example, you wanted to lift the undercarriage, and you or, you lifted the flaps instead, it can be a hell of a job to get off the ground at all, or alternatively, if you do what we call an overshoot in other words you come in to make an, you do an approach to land and then you command the pupil to open the throttles and go round without landing, and at that stage your flaps are fully down to retard the speed of the aircraft, so in this case if the chap pulled up the wrong lever, the flaps would come up and the plane just sank like that, hit the runway and where it would explode virtually, so you had to be very [emphasis] sure that he pulled up the right lever, [chuckle] and you watched like a hawk to see which one he was going to pull up, and one chap did pull up the wrong lever, I was there, and without any hesitation I whacked my fist down on the back of his hand and knocked the lever back into position! He was protesting strongly that I’d bruised his hand! I said well that’ll remind you which lever you’re pull up in the future. [Laugh] Anyway, life goes on. But at then at the end of nine months I’d had enough, decided to leave. The circumstances of my leaving were unique perhaps in a sense that I took a pupil down to, just north of the A5, towards the midlands and there was a low flying area specifically where we trained people to fly low. The purpose of this to evade enemy fighters because no enemy aircraft can get under you if you are low flying of course, and that’s your vulnerable part. So I took this pupil down there and he wouldn’t fly below two hundred feet so I said, ‘look this is nonsense, you really must get down, now let me show you.’ and I took him down, right down, so low we that were actually hedge hopping over hedges and flying between trees, and he looked with horror at the moment, for a moment or two and then suddenly he began to get the excitement of it all and we came out across an airfield that was under construction. All the work was lots of sea of mud and two runways and right at the intersection of the runways was a big caravan on wheels. And two chaps on the veranda of this were looking out over the scene. Obviously discussing things, the engineer or the architect. It just so happens that this caravan was in my line of flight, and I was only about ten feet off the ground. I flew towards this thing, hopped the plane over the top and these fellows jumped for their lives, unfortunately down into the mud, which was a very naughty thing to do really. But in fact it was, had results because one of the gentlemen was the officer commanding Shawbury, a group captain, and his gold, hat with gold braid fell into the mud which had to be sent away for specialist cleaning and his wonderful uniform got into a mess. I was posted forthwith.
DH: Oh wow!
JT: And frankly it suited me down to the ground actually and I think I got a detrimental report on my, on my record. Still.
DH: So you got moved for doing what you were supposed to be doing!
JT: Yeah, well.
DH: It’s just he got in the way.
JT: He got in the way.
DH: Yeah. Oh wow!
JT: I was very sorry for him afterwards, really.
DH: Yeah. I’m sure you were! [laugh] Not. So when you were posted then, where did you to go then?
JT: I then went to an Operational Training Unit which was at Pershore, in Worcestershire. There, as the Operational Training Unit you had to fly Wellington bombers and to do that you had to have a crew. You got a navigator, wireless operator, front gunner and rear gunner; the front gunner also being a bomb aimer. So you collected your crew, and you met people, you formed a crew, which we did. And then we went through the appropriate training period for that, for that aircraft. Towards the end of the training period, lots of night flying, cross countries where you would fly from that place up to, virtually up to Scotland, down the Irish Sea, to, down to sort of bottom end of Wales, and then fly back into this, that would be a normal night cross country exercise to get the idea of long distance flying at night, and so, you know, we were just, getting towards the end of that training, and suddenly Bomber Harris - chap in charge of Bomber Command of course - decided that he would like to wanted to bomb, do the first thousand bomber raid. Now, Bomber Harris had not got a thousand aircraft in Bomber Command. So he had to take some from the Training Command, some - one or two from Coastal and various other sections - to make up his thousand, which he did. So despite the fact we hadn’t finished our training, six aircraft were designated from our training unit to join this thousand bomber raid, though we hadn’t completed our training at that stage. Fortunately the other five people had a qualified pilot sitting alongside them, so they were all right, but since I was also, got lots of flying hours in, been an instructor, I was told I was going on my own. And so we flew to Cologne which was the first of the thousand bomber raids. Which was quite, that was the first time we did, and quite spectacular it was. The defences were completely overwhelmed with one thousand aircraft did the whole job in about ninety minutes, and that’s really [emphasis] intense bombing, and it virtually destroyed Cologne, most of it in the centre and the outlying areas: devastating. And of course two nights later we all went to Essen to do the same job there, but since, at Cologne we could see everything, visibility was perfect; at Essen there was cloud and we actually had to bomb through the clouds, because we hadn’t developed the Pathfinder thing to the right extent at that stage. And then they said right well you’re operational we’ll post you to a squadron and that was it. So I was posted to, eventually to an Australian squadron just north of the Humber. And when I arrived there the commanding officer was on leave, so we went down to the flight and got us out an aeroplane, one of their aeroplanes and flew it around on navigational exercises we decided on our own, to get used to the area. The engines were not the beautiful engines on the, ones we were used to, these were American Pratt and Whitney engines and if you, they had notorious, they were absolutely notorious because when they took off the noise was out, absolutely outstanding, very noisy aeroplane due to the design of the engine, well, anyway we got used to this, and at the end of the week we were told the CO was back and he wanted to see us. So we marched in, lined up in front of his desk, he points to me, ‘Right, what’s your name and where you from?’ [Australian accent] So I told him, he said, ‘You’re a bloody pom! I don’t want any bloody poms on my squadron, you’re posted!’ - that was it. And so same with my rear gunner who was also English, ‘cause the other three guys were Australian, in my crew, and so they remained, formed another crew, and unfortunately they didn’t survive the war. But the other gunner and I survived the war, that’s, the way things went. We were posted another British squadron this time and to carry on to do the other twenty eight trips necessary to make up the total thirty. So, our crew, Aussie crew, were hell of a nice guys, one from Sydney, one from Melbourne, I forget where the other one was from, and when we first met, when we’re crewing up in the first place, in training, they took one look, said to me ‘Christ we’ve got bloody poms running our, bloody, on us’, I said, ‘Christ we’ve got bloody colonials working for us!’ [Laugh] So all together [cough] we got on like a house on fire, great guys, thoroughly enjoyed it.
DH: Good.
JT: That part.
DH: At what point did you go to RAF Binbrook on the Wellingtons? Is that the period of time you’ve just been talking about?
JT: Yes, that was the time when I was posted just for a brief time to Binbrook.
DH: Yes.
JT: And this turns out to be a mistaken posting for some reason, so we weren’t unhappy about that one. From Binbrook we went to the Aussie squadron and from there we went on to the English squadron.
DH: Right. So. You did some raids, or a raid on, at St. Nazaire. Can you tell me about that?
JT: St. Nazaire, yes. Well, St, Nazaire, like Lorient on the west coast of France of course, were submarine bases, with huge concrete submarine pens there, they were bombed incessantly and so they built these huge concrete pens, so that submarines would come from the sea up, a narrow channel and then dive under the concrete shelters so that they could then load, refuel and ready to come out again. The trick was, while the bomber command had tried all sorts of bombs to penetrate this concrete, waste of time because they were just bouncing off concrete: they could be six nine feet thick, reinforced. So the trick then was to try and catch them either coming in or going out. The most effective way to do that was to drop mines, sea mines, in the, in the channels leading into the bunker, you know. And that we had to do. So to do that you had to fly an aeroplane one hundred feet above the water, at a set speed, because of the, it has to be about, only about a hundred knots, that’s about a hundred and fifteen miles an hour, and then you open your bomb doors and absolutely accurately from one hundred feet above the water, in pitch dark, [emphasis] you had to drop your bombs up the line of the channel. And these bombs, the mines in effect, would sink into the water and they would lay there, and just any metal boat that went across the top of them, the bomb would explode; just lay there all the time. So about six or eight aircraft sowing a whole host of these things on the water, would stop submarines coming back for refuelling and that all sort of out in the Atlantic and they certainly stopped the loaded boats from coming out, ‘cause they couldn’t get out that was the principle of it. It was effective in a sense, but the Germans of course decided that all these mines had got to be set off, and the easiest way to do that was to get a French trawlerman with a metal boat to travel and explode the bombs, and killed the Frenchmen on the way: didn’t matter. That’s effectively what they did.
DH: So they were magnetic I presume.
JT: Hmm.
DH: So they’d come up and hit whatever was metal.
JT: Aye. Well they’d trip, trip a magnetic mechanism within the bomb and [explode sound] go up yes, and sink any French, metal boat that was going over it or submarine for that matter, German submarine. It would sink them The idea was that if we could get a few submarines sunk in the channel that they would stop using the top, have to use the, the two depots.
DH: How long did that, did you do that for? You know, did they make a decision right to stop them?
JT: Yes, virtually, almost continual basis over a period of time, perhaps once a week, once every two weeks you’d go back and have another go and because of this the banks on either side on the approach to this, these were lined up with anti aircraft so when you went there with your hundred feet steadily at that speed with anti-aircraft fire coming in from both sides and you just crossed your fingers you would get through safely and of course you couldn’t take evasive action a hundred feet above the water, the slightest movement you’d be in the water yourself. So it was a, rather a dice with death situation. Not as simple as it sounds.
DH: And can I ask were, did many crews get killed, doing that?
JT: Sorry?
DH: Did many, were many aircraft killed, shot down?
JT: Yes, a few, I don’t know the total frankly, but certainly a few. Well, you were a sitting target so just the way but once the mines were in the water, it was quite effective in inhibiting where the submarines could get, go in and out.
DH: Reading your book, you talked about Lorient, the Bay of Biscay. What happened there? Was that, is that around the St, Nazaire?
JT: That is, yeah, one is up the coast, one is further down the coast, exactly [emphasis] the same sort of situation. Again, the thing was, again there was a channel which the u-boats went in and out and again we were throwing these mines into that channel, to stop, stop their progress.
DH: Yes.
JT: This was particularly important as we, as we got to D-Day of course, we had to stop them dead.
DH: Okay. You mentioned in your book about, is it Mainz, to do with a gentleman called Viv Parry.
JT: Yes.
DH: Can you talk about that please?
JT: We did bombing raid in Hamburg and we had a hard time with that one, and coming back we realised that we were losing fuel, one of the petrol tanks had been holed and we were, not losing fuel from it, and so we got to the point where almost half the way back across the north sea and I had to stop, the engine just stopped for lack of fuel and I feathered the propellers and we were now flying on the one engine, bit tricky because we hadn’t got very much fuel left, so in the remain, tanking on the other side, so by cutting its power back, on the engine, so it consumed less fuel, we also were losing height until eventually we crossed the Yorkshire coast very low indeed and we were desperate to look for somewhere to land and I was really dicing because it was a question as to how long we would stay in the air, give us time to find an airfield to land on. In fact we ran out of fuel. And so from about a thousand feet I had to suddenly look round in the early dawn, to find somewhere to land the plane. I suddenly spotted one just about the last hop would do the trick, dead engines, the plane just wasn’t exactly a good glider, it came down fairly rapidly, I managed to screw it round get into the airfield and do a perfect belly landing which I thought this is absolutely superb, marvellous. I even thought, you know how good it was, until eventually, we approached a copse where were quite, fairly slow down, then suddenly the wing tip on the right hand side collided with a young tree, just projecting out, and this had the effect of swinging the plane round, rapidly, it came to a stop. Now part of the procedure in all this crash landing is that the crew goes into what we call crash position and brace themselves. I stayed in the cockpit doing the flying and they all brace themselves. The rear gunner turned his turret to one, to right angles like that to the, to the line of flight, and he opened his little back doors and he unstrapped himself so as he could get out quickly, and the unfortunate effect of this, this catching the wing, swinging the aircraft like that it ejected him from the rear turret, he must have flown through the air about twenty, thirty feet, landed, unfortunately broke his neck and it was me was, to discover this. A complete shock, you know one of your own crew, one of your best and close friends; suddenly there he is lying dead. You can’t stand there, do nothing.
DH: No.
JT: So, was a question of having him covered up, one chap stayed with the plane and the body, and the other guys were sent in different directions, and I went off to look, we all went to look for help get to a telephone and get to the air force and that’s where I sort of waded into a, through a canal, put my boots back, on knocked on a farm door, the farmer eventually answers the door, looked at me, I was bloodied, because I’d cut my head badly, blood all over my face, I was wet, I looked a wreck, and, he didn’t know what I was, in fact he thought probably I was a German, he didn’t, my speech was a bit slurred. Anyway I managed to convince him who I was and he invited me in and put through a phone call, called his missus down from upstairs and she came down in her nightie, a little dressing gown over the top, being a practical woman of course, she immediately got a bowl of hot water and started cleaning up the wound and making me reasonably respectable and for good measure stuffed a big double whisky down me, [laugh] in to me which made me feel just a little bit better at that time. So we got recovered, plane and everything else. And we set off on leave of course. Viv Parry was buried in a graveyard in Anglesey, where he lies to this day.
DH: Was the plane re-usable after that?
JT: No, only in parts. The strain put on the crash landing and the effect of hitting the tree couldn’t support some of the metal parts, so they weren’t prepared to risk taking off the wings and trying to get it to fly again, when they reassembled it, so I think they used it for spares, so we never saw it again.
DH: At some point after that I understand you went to Tilstock, as an instructor. Was that after, that was after that was it?
JT: Yes, after the tour of operations I was posted to Tilstock in Whitchurch. I was there for quite a time. Flying Whitleys, Whitley, old fashioned Whitley bombers. You took pilots up and you trained them to fly the plane and when they were qualified as you felt fit and you, you put the crews in and then they went off on to practice, cross country work round the country, all round the country, the bombing range at er, just across, not far from here, they used that as a bombing range, of course other bombing ranges were in different parts of the country. So they had to navigate their way to this particular bombing area, do the bombs and then carry on a circuit, prescribed circuit and then come back. In other words it’s a virtual imitation of what they’d be doing when they qualified. And it was from there, they went on, at that stage of the war most of them would go to what we call a conversion units to convert from two engines to four engines, and then from the conversion unit, with a crew they would go on to operations, operational trips. Tilstock was a nice post. It was a relief to survive to become an instructor on that, one or two adventures of course, there always is. Which isn’t always totally reliable.
DH: So you completed, was it thirty ops, you completed thirty ops before you went there.
JT: Yes, at that stage.
DH: So that’s where you got the DFC.
JT: Er, I didn’t get the DFC till much later in the war, I realise is utterly wrong, when I joined the Pathfinders.
DH: So after Tilstock what happened then?
JT: Well, they decided at Tilstock should, was approaching the end of 1943, and they decided they wanted to train people to gliders, towed gliders to go in into the invasion, and so the whole airfield was converted to a different type of aircraft and towing gliders and mixed in with the Army. And so I was moved on to a place called Peplow, not far from Wellington, and there I became an instructor on another different type of aircraft altogether, Wellington. Which I gave up after a while became test, briefly a test pilot for every one that, every aeroplane that came out of over, being overhauled I would fly it to make sure everything was in order. I decided early on, that to avoid any errors, I’d, the chaps who worked on the aeroplane, the fitters and riggers, had to fly with me when I did the test flight. They quickly cottoned on, they made sure that if they flew with me on the test flight it had to be right, and so apparently the quality of the servicing shot up! [laugh, cough] Just a little trick you learn.
DH: That’s a very good trick!
JT: From there on, after D-Day I decided I had to get back into the war, that’s you know, going on to Mosquitos.
DH: Can you tell me about Mosquitos then?
JT: Sorry?
DH: Can you tell me about your time on Mosquitos then please?
JT: Yes, the Mosquito was a beautiful aircraft, it was never given an awful lot of publicity, but was a workhourse and did a lot of good work. So we had two weeks on a training course, joined up with a navigator, chap, navi, Tubby, Bernard Tubbs his name was, my navigator, thin as a rake, but because of his name he was called Tubby, and we got on like a house on fire. He already done a tour of operations himself on Lancasters, so he was a good navigator and an experienced one and I’d done a tour and been an instructor. So we went in to Pathfinders and in two weeks, we’d not, I think only a short four hours, flying the Mosquito. Lovely aeroplane to fly, really was, we were very pleased with that. In fact one stage I think I flew over the centre of England and I could see Ireland on that side, and half way across the north sea on the other side, in those days yo,u flying at thirty five thousand feet, was something so rare, you know, didn’t happen. Today it’s commonplace of course, had to, had to have oxygen, and it was a nice scene rarely, rarely you get weather that good in Britain. Anyway, from there we went, posted to Gravely, in er, not far from Cambridge, and we did our second tour of operations, another forty operations over Germany with the Mosquito. The Mosquito was used in various ways Pathfinder squadron. So either you would join in an air raid on a particular German city. The principle was that the main force, of Lancasters and so on, would go to the target. We would take, they were, we would take off after them because we were a lot faster, we then flew over the top of the bombing raid, got in to the target ahead of them and then dropped right the way down and spread markers on the ground so that they knew what to bomb. So by the time they came in, we’d put all the markers there and so they could come in and bomb the markers and know that they’d done an accurate bombing job. So as we were Pathfinders we were prime targets for the Germans of course, but that was the way it was. But apart from that, we did not many of those strangely enough. We were sent off, because at this time of the war, the idea was to be bombing as many Germans cities every [emphasis] night as possible. That meant the workers were down in the cellars and if they’re down in the cellars they couldn’t be making guns and ammunition and aeroplanes. And it was quite effective in that sense. So a lot of the trips we did, fifteen, twenty, twenty five thousand feet, over various, while the heavies were doing all their damage over one part of Germany and we were scouting out and dropping bombs on other parts of Germany. That was the general idea of it all. So flying at twenty thousand, twenty five thousand feet, today’s jets, was quite common. We were very fortunate, because they developed one type of Mosquito that could specially fly that high, the engines were slightly more, got more beef in them, they provided heat, and they provided some pressurisation which was virtually unknown in those days. So in fact we were flying in a pressurised, heated aeroplane, rather like today [laugh,] really deluxe stuff. In fact we were the only squadron who had this type of aeroplane. Quite remarkable, but it was a nice way to go! Until you had trouble of course, and then, then it wasn’t. Because if you suddenly lose the heat, and the oxygen, at about twenty five thousand feet, you got difficulties.
DH: Yes, I can imagine.
JT: Because above fifteen thousand feet, no oxygen, you’re [pooft sound], you then become unconscious quite quickly, apart from the fact that you’re flying at temperatures of, at that height, could be minus thirty, minus forty degrees.
DH: Did you ever have any close shaves like that?
JT: The only time I’ve ever had was, was, having flown down to, started off and flew to the target in south Germany and, in the normal way you climb up to, in that case I think it was twenty five thousand feet, and then head off for the target. But the plane I was in, I’d got up to about five thousand feet and suddenly I looked the temperatures and the pressures on the engines and the temperatures were up and the pressures were down, which meant the engine was over, both engines were overheating; that wasn’t good news, particularly when you’ve got a bomb, big bomb on underneath you. So I levelled out and flew the plane a short while, level, throttled back the engines and they seemed cool down, to almost normal. So again I opened and climbed another three or four thousand feet, again they overheated and I levelled out, they cooled down, then I went up in steps to about seventeen, eighteen thousand feet I think, and I thought this is silly, so I flew along for a while at, about that height, eighteen thousand I think it was, and the engines came down, to, temperatures were up, slightly up, pressures slightly down, not enough to worry about anyway, so I thought right we’ll go, but of course this was all time consuming. Whereas we should have been first on the target to mark it, the other guys were way ahead, including the main bomber force. So we plodded our way down towards the target, and we got within sight of the target which we, thirty, forty miles ahead, I suddenly looked at the port engine temperatures were up, way up [emphasis] pressures right the way down, if I left it running it would just stop, catch fire, and in a wooden aeroplane that it not good news, so immediately cut the engine, switched everything off, cut the fuel and everything else, carry on with one engine but I daren’t open the other engine because we got ourself in trouble with that one, so I had to leave that one as it was, which was in a cruising position because one engine, two engines support the plane, one engine doesn’t, so the plane progressively started to lose height. So instead of bombing the target at twenty five thousand feet that night or whatever, we were down to five thousand feet by the time we got to the target which was thoroughly well alight, but fortunately the bombing raid was over and the Germans were all rushing around putting out the fires and dealing with everything. So we flew in straight over the target at five thousand feet, which is very low, let our bomb go right bang into the centre of the target we were aiming to do. And of course, as soon as the Germans spotted that, they’d heard a, an aeroplane with one engine, not two, so they thought it was one of their own that far down in Germany.
DH: Wow.
JT: So they assumed it had to be one of their own with those engines, so that’s why we got in dropped the bomb and it was only then that they realised who we were and then suddenly there was a whole barrage of stuff, heading out at us, we just did a quick turn, that way rather, and vanished into the darkness, and worked our way back up, in fact because we hadn’t got a bomb, we’d used half our fuel, so made the plane was much lighter of course. So with the one engine left in that cruise position it actually climbed and back up at eighteen thousand feet. So we kept a sharp eye out to be sure we weren’t going to be followed or attacked and crossed over the border into Belgium, and suddenly I looked at this engine, the temperature had crept up, the pressure was down, and I thought that’s it, you know, just the way these things were going, we had no hope of getting it back to the UK. So that’s when we called it, started calling up ‘Mayday, Mayday’. Got no response. So I thought there’s only one thing to do, let’s try, may, I think I sent out nine maydays altogether, in groups, nothing and er, so I said right, we’ll go. So Tubby went down and tried to release the bottom hatch which is the normal way to go out, but of course we were pressurised. So the only other was out was through the top, you pull emergency lever and the hatch flies away, top hatch, flies away. The whole plane was depressurised, that meant that anything lightweight [swooshing sound] was sucked out of the plane: chocolate bars, baps everything went out the top, [laugh] which didn’t matter at that stage anyway. And so he clambered up, and went out through, I brought the plane back to as low a speed as I dare, which was only about ninety miles an hour, and he went out through the top, and parachuted. I thought well, that’s me, I’m next. So the idea is, you switch off the engines, chop the fuel, put the plane into a glide and you go out through the top as well. By that time I could have got out through the bottom with the pressure’d been released, either way I was just about close the engines down I thought I’ll give one [emphasis] more try and I went, ‘Mayday, Mayday, Mayday,’ and immediately a voice came back, in English, and said, you know, ‘what’s your problem?’, so I told him, and in no time at all they’d put up a cone of searchlights and the engine by this time was on its last legs, I really pushed it [cough] I landed the plane with almost, one, just, barely an engine working at all, managed to get the undercarriage and flaps down and landed and it was, it was a forward English fighter aircraft base, fortunately was also a maintenance unit, so I thought well that’s good. So I checked in with the people there, and they said we well can’t do anything tonight, but we’ll send a wire to er, I said why don’t you just send a wire back to the squadron to tell them where I am? ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘well, I’ll send a signal’ but he said, ‘no chance,’ he said, ‘there’s so much going on in Europe at the present time, the chance of your getting a signal back are fifty-fifty.’ So I said ‘well how do the squadron know that we’re missing?’ I said. ‘Well the only way they know you are missing is ‘cause you don’t come back, from their point of view.’ So just had to hope that somehow a signal could find its way through in the end. So I, they found me a bed to sleep on that night, and we looked around the aeroplane the next day they said well they were too busy today with other fighter aircraft to get them in the air, so we’ll try and look at your plane tomorrow. So that was it. That night we went out to a bar, we got in the car trundled along, and there’s nothing on the road generally at night, except we came across a couple of wagons, French peasants, and there hanging lanterns under the wagon that’s to tell, so you know that if coming up from behind, [laugh] you know there’s something in your way. We went into a bar there and, had a couple of drinks and were drinking away happily, and suddenly there was a click, click, click of heels, sorry, we decided, having had a drink we decided go to the loo. So we were standing there was we gentlemen do, and suddenly a click, click of heels and women walked right past us, so I looked at this gentleman and ‘Oh’ he said, ‘don’t worry chum, you’re in Belgium now, men and women use the same toilets.’ [Laugh] I’d learnt a lesson! Anyway the next day they did look at the mossie, the one engine that had failed they said nothing much we can do with that its either a new engine or we’ve got to strip it right down, and refurbish it which will take time, so I’m sorry you can’t use your aeroplane unless you can take off on one engine and the runway wasn’t very long and in any case each side of the runway was lined with German planes that had been dropped off their, down off all their undercarriages, so you daren’t deviate off the runway. So I said no, I’m not going to take this plane off like that. The plane had a tendency to swing to the left on take off and if you tried it, you came to that, the left hand engine, running ahead of the right hand and that’s how you took off a mossie, the way, as long as you knew the trick, that was the way to do it. So I said if you try to take a mossie off with the starboard engine running full out and nothing on the left hand side, the tendency to swing to the left is going to be accentuated and I have no way of countering it. If I had got a very, very long runway of about three or four miles, I could gradually ease it up and with time, I could work it, get power up and get off the ground, but you haven’t got that long a runway. And if I did take it off on your runway, once I’m airborne, the chances are the plane will just flick over on its back and dive in the ground and I don’t intend to commit suicide at this time. So I said no, you’ll have to repair it. So they said well can you fly a Wellington bomber? I said yes, I can fly a bomber. We’ve got one in the hangar we want to get back to the UK, we can have it ready by tomorrow. So I said all right I’ll fly that back. So we that night, we went to a local, he said come on, we’ll go to a better place than we did last night. So we went to this place, semi-circular building, and virtually in the centre, sort of half a circle, as it were, circle in the centre of that was a woman behind a humendous cash, national cash register, biggest one I’ve ever seen, and stairs going up, and a lot of dance music seemed to be coming down from upstairs, I thought that’s nice for the lot of air force lads, lot of army lads, said it must be nice for these lads, a night out. And so I was chatting, we got beers brought across to us, and sitting there chatting away and suddenly a very beautiful [emphasis] woman, girl must have been in her early twenties I suppose, came across, sat down beside me. I glanced at her, didn’t take any note, carried on talking. She tapped me on the shoulder, says, ‘You no like me?’ I said, ‘Oh yeah, very, very nice,’ and carried on chatting. She tapped me again, I forget her name was, she gave me a French name, ‘oh yes, I recognise that, but I’m talking to this, my friend,’ and suddenly she was stroking me round the, [chuckle] round the unmentionable area. I thought what the hell’s going on here and my colleague was laughing like hell. Of course we’d come to a, an appropriate place for that sort of thing! I said, ‘Look I’ve got a girl, I’m not going to get into this sort of situation.’ ‘Oh!’ he said, ‘you can’t leave now you’ll insult the girl, insult the management and if you get like that they’ll think nothing of cutting your throat when you get outside.’ ‘Oh’ I said, ‘that’s a difficult situation,’ and I thought, I turned to this girl with my friend, so I said to her, ‘I’m sorry, but we are only here for a short time because we have to go flying, so I would like to come back and see you tomorrow, at seven o’clock.’ And she said, ‘oh, oui monsieur’. So I stood up, she stood up, shook hands, kissed on both cheeks, I got this bloke and went out the door and said [mutter] ‘spoilt my whole evening!’ [laugh] So we got out and the next day I flew the Wellington back to the United Kingdom. And then finally got back to the squadron. My navigator landed in a ploughed field and because you got the plough, the way the ploughed field is, you put one foot on, down the trough and one foot on, got himself a black eye so he didn’t feel so good, but anyway managed to bury his parachute in a ditch, kind of off the main road because there’s no hedges or fences, and looked at the stars, decided which was north, south east and west, and decided he’d go west, or north west, which is, the road was generally in that direction. He plodded along for a while and he came to a village. He looked around the village for a plaque, you know doctor, found plaque there, banged on the door, finally chap opens the window upstairs, you know, ‘Qui est la?’, - who is there? - and so he told him who he was, in his fractured French, and ‘Non, non, non. Allez!’ Slammed the window and told him to go away, which he thought well that’s not good for a doctor, so he banged on the window again, door again and the chap opened the door and pointed a double-barrelled shotgun at him. ‘Allez, allez!’, you know, and so there’s no arguing with a shotgun, so he walked away and told the, told the chap he should have married his wife in b, in voluble English language –
DH: Yes.
JT: - hobbled along and down the road for a while and suddenly he heard some vehicles coming towards him from the west and thought well now, are they retreating Germans or are they advancing Allies? So he dropped down the ditch out of sight. All the stuff trundled past: vehicles, tanks, trucks. And eventually one stopped just above him, stayed silent as the grave because if he’d emerged from the ditch and decided he was English, they would just shoot him and leave him in the ditch. So he kept very quiet, till a voice said, [American accent] ‘Hey Mac, will you give me a cigarette?’ He was out of the ditch like a shot! The headlights of the jeep across, identified himself and they said, ‘horrible weather, mac,’ they were pointing at, two cocked pistols pointed at him. Americans, you know, quick on the draw, anyway eventually he identified himself, one American soldier sat at the back of the jeep, he sat in the front by the driver with a pistol in his back and they went back to the local military depot and before long they get into another American airfield, I’m sorry, and given food, medical treatment, sorted out and sent to bed. And they said well, we’ll see if we can get a message back to you, into Britain but you know how it is, we have to report back to brigade headquarters and they have to report to London, and London has to report to the Air Ministry and by the time they get around be an age, he said until you are identified, positively identified back from your Air Ministry you’ve got to stay here! So a couple of days went by so enough’s enough, then eventually a chap flew in, came in to the mess where he was, an American pilot, he got chatting to him, ‘Yeah, I’m on delivery, at present on Dakotas and I’m bringing in supplies sure I can give you a lift back, take you to Southampton, is that all right?’ So he flew back, back in this thing to Southampton, and got some money out of the American adjutant to get him back home, and went home to check with his parent to say, tell them he was all right, and then got to London and then came back to the airfield and I was very pleased to see him. So he had his little adventure in his own way.
DH: He certainly did, didn’t he!
JT: And then we carried on with the war, as you do. [Rustling]
DH: So is, after that had happened [rustling] obviously D-Day had happened by then, and we were with the allies as plans, so what part did you take then, after that, before the end of the war?
JT: Well, we, we continued bombing into Germany because that’s where, you know the stuff was, ammunition, guns, tanks were still being made. and it was important to stop those. But there was a case where, just before Christmas 1944 that we established that there was a tremendous build-up of arms, ammunition, everything else, in West Germany where, at the point where they go through a series of tunnels and they come into France. They quickly picked up that there might be an attack down there, but, so what happened they were a bit slow in getting the, moving troops into the area to contain it, and that was where the Americans did a breakthrough actually about that time, unfortunately the weather was, we couldn’t fly in the weather that was going on at the time, so there was nothing really to stop these guys actually, bursting their way back, Germans bursting their way back into France. So the only way we could tackle this was to close down the tunnels, that’s where the supply route was. So the job was to fly down the banks, where the tunnel was, fly down the banking on either side, down along the tunnel railway tracks about twenty feet up and then drop a bomb, so it was actually, you thew, literally threw your bomb into the tunnel with a delayed action fuse and hoped that it worked, and of course it was unfortunate that all the tunnels had got machine guns rooted round them so you went in, you know under those conditions, it was, just so happened this happened when I was on a day off, or stood down for the day anyway, but I know that our squadron did go in and they did drop some bombs, blew up a lot of the tunnels in that area, so as to stop the trains getting through. And one of my colleagues was last seen going down in flames, was obviously shot into bits. But it was a tough time. Anyway, it all helped to stop the Germans and their supplies getting through, and in the May, stopped because they only got so far, then they ran out of fuel and they had to pick up the fuel locally where they could, there sort of, there was no further supply of ammunition, so they were isolated and the whole thing failed of course.
DH: Was that still flying Mosquitos then?
JT: Sorry?
DH: Was that still flying Mosquitos?
JT: Oh yes, yes. So we were getting towards the end of the war at this stage and just wanted to finish, but still we had targets we had to hit. Hammering Berlin was the usual; we went to Berlin nineteen times. Try and hammer them into submission, you know. I’m not sure the public wanted submission, but they’re not being allowed to submit, under those circumstances, and then Hitler committed suicide, and his lady friend and the war ended quite quickly after that.
DH: So how regular were you going, in that period of time, how regularly were you going? Like, every day? Every two or three days?
JT: Sorry?
DH: To do a bombing run. How often were you going?
JT: I’ll tell you. [Shuffle of paper] Trying to catch up, yeah, so many pages, ah yes, yes, it’s er, ah right, 21st October: Hamburg, 10th of November: Hannover, 11th of November [indistinguishable], 21st of November: Hannover, 24th of November is Berlin, 25th is Nuremburg, so it’s sort of two nights running quite often then a break. 27th of November was Hannover, 29th was Duisburg, 30th was Duisburg. December 1st was Karlsruhe, so you know, it was -
DH: All over the place, and regularly.
JT: December, that’s when I had the trouble, December the 5th, I didn’t get back to flying operationally, until February the 5th after it was, I forget what happened earlier, it was Berlin, Mannheim, Berlin, Berlin, [tuning pages] Erfurt, Berlin, Berlin, Dessau, Berlin, Berlin, Bremen, Berlin, Berlin, Berlin, Berlin, Berlin, Dessau, Berlin, Berlin, Hamburg Munich Berlin, Berlin, Kiel, Munich, airfield and so on.
DH: Yeah.
JT: Some of them little bursts of two or three days and then a break.
DH: Yeah. So in between bombing raids what did you get up to?
JT: Oh well, you went out to a local pub and had a few beers! [Laugh] The main thing was you drank in the mess sometimes but the tendency was to get away from the atmosphere, the flying and everything else, into a local bar and meet with normal people.
DH: Can you think of any capers that people got up to?
JT: Oh, I can’t think of anything particularly but I’m sure they did! [Chuckle] There were sometimes you’d get to the pub and there’d a drinking party going on, not very common the publican in those days had to close at ten o’clock prompt at night. So he’d close the front door at ten o’clock then open the back door, so if you wanted to drink you went to the back door and kept going till two or three in the morning, as long as his beer ration lasts.
DH: I was going to say that, was there much beer?
JT: There seemed to be a reasonable amount of beer going round but you, if one pub ran out of beer then you moved on to the one that had beer - the word quickly got around on these situations.
DH: Very good. So.
JT: In other words get away from the military atmosphere get into a relaxed atmosphere. It was good to do that –
DH: Absolutely
JT: - otherwise the whole thing would bear down on you and you’d be no good to anybody.
DH: So after VJ day how do you think the war affected you, did it affect you in any way?
JT: Well I think a) we were glad the European war was over, but remember the far east war was still on. We were given some opportunities to choose what we wanted to do. I’d always thought the idea, we were still ferrying Canadian built Mosquitos from Canada, and flying via Greenland, Iceland to Europe and then you went back on a commercial transport of some sort and then brought another one in. But then fortunately I investigated it, and I found that in Iceland the weather conditions can be such that suddenly like a cold air meets the warm air and a blanket of fog [noise] just descends on the airfield and you could be flying from [cough] Greenland to Iceland, suddenly arrive at Iceland and they’d be blanked out with fog. there was no way you can land the aeroplane and you certainly wouldn’t have enough fuel to head to England, or Scotland. So they were stuck there bail out waste of aeroplane so on, and if you landed in the sea up there you didn’t last very long anyway.
DH: No. Oh my god!
JT: So I thought this is almost as bad as operational flying, so I thought right I think I’ll give that one a miss! [Laugh] So I went to an Operational Training Unit then, so I could train people to fly, and it was a more relaxed atmosphere, in any case the air force had decided the there’s no point now doing operational flying; the war’s over, so the amount of flying it was doing less and less and less, and so they had to keep us occupied, with either courses or you had to take parades you were in to the old pre-war military situation of parades and officialdom really came into its own. And these characters who had been sitting around, administrators and everything else, been doing as they’re told for all this time emerged from the woodwork and didn’t make life too easy for the people flying. [Clock chimes] In the end I decided anyway the particular airfield I was on, that I wouldn’t, I’d got extended service, that is to say I applied for, and they gave me extended service, that meant I could continue with the service till it, the air force had sorted itself out in which case I could remain in the air force and carry on using it as a career, so I thought I might well do that. Until I got to this station, particular airfield, where I became an instructor there, along with others, but one of the problems with it, in the officers mess at I was at this time there were two squadron leaders, and they were bango whizzo type characters who didn’t think the war was over, so they’d think nothing of walking on the ceiling and drinking themselves silly and making the whole, most in fact people didn’t go into the mess any more, they couldn’t stand these two characters. But unfortunately there was no one in a senior position, the group captain who ran the station was due to leave the air force anyway any minute, so he’d lost interest in the field, the wing commander also in charge, he was in a similar situation so there was no real [emphasis] somebody to do something about it. And one of the, favourite trick of these two drunks, was about two o’clock in the morning they close the bar in the officers mess and they’d go round tossing people out of bed just as a, just for fun, and I remember about half past two in the morning you’d suddenly find yourself on a mattress on the floor being tipped out of bed, and these two characters guffawing like mad and going ahead and trying somebody else. I thought this just isn’t going to happen. So I thought, all right, and three nights later, drunk again, I could hear them coming down the passage, so I got up, stood behind the door, one of them barged in, I closed the door right behind him. I got hold of him, slammed him up against the wall, he was drunk mind you, and I put my fist under his nose and I told him, you ever come in here again, you’ll know what you’ll get. I made sure he understood that, and I opened the door and pushed him out and he fell on the floor, drunk of course, in the passage outside, when he looked at me I knew one thing, right there and then, I was a flight lieutenant, he was a squadron leader. I had insulted and virtually assaulted a superior officer and I could be in real trouble. So I thought that’s it, I thought about it, so I sat down and wrote my resignation from the air force there and then and requested immediate, you know, removal from the air force, and I went first thing in the morning at half past eight I was in the, put the letter in the hands of the adjutant officers. And at ten o’clock, or half past ten I think it was, I was told to report to him, and he was an old timer, a bit of a character, and he threw the, he threw this thing across the desk at me, ‘what’s this nonsense about, why should you leave the air force?’ And that’s when I’m afraid I lost my dignity and a lot of temper, we were all stewed up about the situation, I let him have it, hard, about how the station was not being run properly, about the mess was a mess, mess was a mess, these two squadron leaders acting like overgrown schoolboys and disgrace [emphasis] to the service and gave him a long lecture about this. Me a flight lieutenant, lecturing the commanding officer, and he was going purple in the face, nobody’d ever spoken to him like this. I said that’s my decision to leave, sir, gave him a smart salute, about turn and walked out! And I was out of the air force in a week, that’s in a week, I was gone, civilian life, got rid of me. But [emphasis] I still had contacts back in the, back in the mess, and a chap actually ring me, er two weeks later and said I don’t know what you did but by god things have changed, you rattled the CO something rotten and he went into the mess at about eleven o’clock one night, found these two squadron leaders drunk as, like I have described to you, making a mess of themselves. and he you know, suddenly they spotted him, standing in the background, ‘Hello sir, good evening sir, come and have a drink. sir,’ you know, something stupid like that. He turned round and walked out. So the two squadron leaders were posted forthwith to different areas, left the station, and this chap said suddenly the whole atmosphere of the mess, everybody came back into the mess, the whole atmosphere changed, wonderful, nice to have it back again, nice to have our mess back again. So he said I don’t know what you did, by golly it worked. So I was rather pleased that something had come out of it anyway.
DH: Did you have any regrets about leaving?
JT: Sorry?
DH: Did you have any regrets about leaving?
JT: In a sense no, because the air force was changing, it was no longer, the wartime service was, I know it was death and destruction but you were in, a tight family, you knew everybody, knew what was going on, were up to date, but suddenly there was nobody to fight. And so, as I say they had to keep us occupied, so we were up to, a lot of administrative duties were thrust at us, which, a lot less flying was being done, the whole atmosphere was beginning to change, as I say these people who’d been in the background: administrators and everything else, now came to the fore and weren’t making life too easy for the flying people. It was just one of those situations at that time. So I said enough’s enough, I’m off and that’s really precipitated my leaving.
DH: So what did you do then with your life after you left?
JT: Well, I hadn’t made up my mind really what I wanted to do, except that in my home village for many years, they decided, the local authority decided that the village should be by-passed and the by-pass was rumoured for a long time and then it became something more important after the war, something they could get on with. So I thought well, the situation was that my father ran a garage anyway, and what we would do was open up a petrol station on this by-pass probably with sort of motel type accommodation or accommodation of some sort, and that would be a good idea. So, I knew the, roughly where this thing was planned to go, and so I approached the landowners with a view to possibility of purchasing this land, but the word had obviously got around what was happening, so the idea of a) they refused and b) they raised the price so, it was all, eventually I gave up on this it was a good idea, but not practical for me, a rather penniless man trying to get into the world, it just didn’t happen. So, er, I was escorting my lady friend at that time, she lives up here and obviously offered me a chance of connection up here and the chance of joining Hoover, I thought well, something to do keep me occupied for a while. So I went on a training course, a few training courses, before I knew it I was the manager, regional manager and the whole of Birmingham and the Midlands was all, then moved down, they moved you about every four years, moved over and looked after the western half of London and out in to the counties, east part of London and into the counties, then up to the west country taking over the whole of Devon and Cornwall and all that sort of area like that, and then moved up to the north as you do, every four years until we finally settled there, just up the road in Cheshire. So it was a very nomadic sort of life particularly when you’re bringing up youngsters and various schools they had to attend. No, I enjoyed that, responsibility and everything else, just upsetting moving for the children’s education point of view, but from the housing point of view it was an advantage, because that was the time after the war onwards, house prices were rising. First house I bought was a semi-detached house on the outskirts of Birmingham for £1,975. Then we moved to Harrow where I paid £3,200 for a four bedroomed semi-detached, from there I moved to, er, Chelmsford, about £4,900 for a brand new, four bedroomed detached property with double garage, and from there I moved down to the west country. I paid £7,250 for a four bed detached double garage in a nice area, and from there we moved up to Cheshire where I in fact, I bought a piece of land and had a four bed detached property with double built there. So I took advantage of the rising prices, I don’t know what the last Cheshire one was, about, I don’t know three or four hundred thousand, something like that. Ridiculous when you think about the prices.
DH: I know. It’s daft isn’t it.
JT: Crazy. And as long as the land is restricted to build on, so the prices will maintain their, and that’s the problem Where do you find land to build that doesn’t upset people.
DH: That’s right.
JT: So. But there’s a lot of land available that’s not being utilised. Anyway, that’s another story.
DH: Can I ask, can you think of any occasions when you were absolutely scared to death during the war?
JT: [Breath out]
DH: Did you get scared?
JT: Oh yes, I think you did get scared. You, the thing about being a pilot, you daren’t, particularly when you’ve got a crew, you daren’t show it, you know your heart’s in your mouth and all that sort of thing, I know that dropping these mines in that water at a hundred feet with people springing out everywhere ‘am I going to make it, am I not going to make it,’ and when you go in, you think, well there’s a job to do, I’ll do it, but whether I’ll survive it I don’t know, and I did. But somehow and I think I explained in the book, my mother, grandmother on my mother’s side had this virtue of, or they called it a virtue, had second sight, that is to say she could, tell you things that are going to happen, before they happen. For instance, for example, she was doing some washing in her house, my mother told me this, suddenly she took off her apron, put on her hat and coat, took a tram in those days to the other end of Eastbourne, she knocked on the door of a house she’d never been to before in her life, she told the woman who answered the door she was to go immediately [emphasis] to a hospital in London, her husband was calling for her. She so convinced the woman that she caught the train, went in to London, she arrived at the man’s, her husband’s, bedside half an hour before he died. How did she know that?
DH: Wow.
JT: My mother had it to a lesser extent, I never really thought, well I’d heard these stories but you don’t take, as a kid you don’t, it doesn’t mean much to you. It was strange enough I got to one point on the squadron where I knew instinctively [emphasis] whether a crew would survive or not. At first that was a frightening experience, you get the guys and then a couple of weeks later they’re gone. And you know, when you’re losing crews like that, that’s not, it’s no good, you know, this instinctive feeling I had about it I just had to submerge it, forget about it. But it was there, I could tell if they were going to live or die when they came on the squadron. Never happened before or since. Can you explain it?
DH: No, I can’t.
JT: Probably inherited in the family, something like that.
DH: Probably, yeah.
JT: But, er, something my sons never had, not that I’m aware of.
DH: You said right at the beginning that, when you’d gone to Coventry and when you saw what happened there, you wanted to, you wanted the Germans to understand what we were going through. By the end of the war did still think that, did you have any regrets about what you’d done? Any dilemma in your head or anything?
JT: Not really. The idea was you know, to, really try to bomb them into submission, to agreeing to stop the war was all we wanted, to stop the war, and that was what the bombing was all about, apart from the invasion of course to stop these people fighting, that was all we wanted, and when it was over that was it. I think perhaps we tidied it up a bit better after this war than we did after the first world war, but it was not doing the job properly after the first world war enabled the Nazi party for example, to rise. It hasn’t happened so far in Germany and we hope that, it is obviously a reasonable country.
DH: Is there anything else that I haven’t, or we haven’t covered, while we’ve been talking that you think might be of interest to people?
JT: Not really, I can only express this from a man’s point of view in the situation, from the women’s point of view: wives and sweethearts, and all that sort of thing, it was tough because the men, we go off to war and you’re never going to know if you’re going to see them back ever again, that was a tough situation particularly as the families were concerned that was, was rough because there were many widows as a result of all this, plus the effect of war which was disastrous really, we don’t want wars but if you’re forced: you fight back, and that’s the result of what happens. A modern type of war, the second world war anyway, was a bit disastrous for civilians, no doubt about it. If you have another war it’ll be rather a different kettle of fish, again just whole civilians war, be engulfed. But I don’t know what would happen, have fair idea what will happen, but just hope it never will.
DH: Absolutely. Right. Can I say thank you very much.
JT: Oh you’re most welcome.
DH: It’s been fascinating to listen to, and very informative.
JT: As I say, there are stories in the book you might want to include.
DH: Yes, yeah. Your book’s fascinating.
JT: Hmm. Anyway, it was very nice to see you.
JT: Is it still recording?
DW: I shall turn this off then, okay.
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Interview with Percival Trotman
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Dawn Hughes
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2018-06-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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ATrotmanPJ180604
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01:21:24 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Applying for RAF Bomber Command in May 1940, Percival Trotman was called up in September 1940, training as a pilot at RAF Towyn in Aberystwyth. Being present at Coventry when the town was bombed, he recalls deciding that the Germans deserved to have the same done to them and pushed to do well in his training. Completing his advanced training at RAF South Cerney, Percival was rated above average and was sent to RAF Cranwell to train as a flight instructor, without seeing active service. He gives some examples of training, including low flying over hedges and almost crashing into a caravan, which eventually led to him being moved to an operational training unit where he trained to fly Wellingtons. Whilst completing his training, Percival was drawn into the ‘thousand bomber raid’, without completing his training. Posted to RAF Binbrook by mistake, Percival took part in operations over France and minelaying. Explaining a close call on a return from am operation on Hamburg, Percival gives insight into how he dealt with a crew member's loss during a crash landing. He explains that he felt fear during operations, but kept it hidden so that his crew remained strong. Completing 30 operations in total, he was eventually transferred to the Pathfinders, earning the Distinguished Flying Medal and flying Mosquitoes. Percival recollects his crew members fondly, including his Pathfinders navigator ‘Tubby’. Percival outlines what the aftermath of a crash contained, including making it back to Great Britain, giving insights into another crash he had on the return from an operation.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Cheshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Coventry
England--London
Germany
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
France
France--Lorient
France--Saint-Nazaire
Wales--Ceredigion
England--Warwickshire
Temporal Coverage
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1940-05
1940-09
Contributor
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Sam Harper-Coulson
Anne-Marie Watson
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
150 Squadron
692 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
crash
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
final resting place
Flying Training School
forced landing
Initial Training Wing
military ethos
mine laying
Mosquito
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Cranwell
RAF Graveley
RAF Peplow
RAF Pershore
RAF Shawbury
RAF South Cerney
RAF Tilstock
RAF Torquay
RAF Towyn
recruitment
training
Wellington
Whitley
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ff1f3350206f6261bc6dec0c3a9ef84c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1158/11717/AThorpJF160412.1.mp3
fd9fa4392a3c236f3815a3bff1903dc9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Thorp, John Foster
J F Thorp
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer John Foster Thorp (1924 - 2018, 1623333 Royal Air Force), a list of his operations, a page from a log book and notes on 467 Squadron and Lancaster R5868. He flew completed a tour of operations as a rear gunner with 467 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Thorp, JF
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Warrant Officer John Foster Thorp of 467 Squadron at his home in Bamford, Rochdale at half past one on Tuesday the 12th April 2016. Also present with us are his eldest son Derek and his wife Betty. Warrant Officer Foster, excuse me, Warrant Officer Thorp if you can just describe for us please your family set up. Where you were born and grew up? How many people in your family? Please.
JT: Yes. I was born in Manchester and I grew up in Manchester. In Higher Blackley mainly. And I was there until I was eighteen years of age at which point I went into the RAF.
BW: Was there only you in the family? Did you have any brothers and sisters?
JT: I have. I had one sister. She’s now deceased. But no brothers. No.
BW: And where did you, whereabouts did you go to school?
JT: I went to the local school first until I was fourteen. Sorry. The local school until I was ten. And then I went to North Manchester Grammar School, Chain Bar, Moston. And I left there in September 1939 when the war broke out and the school was evacuated but my father wouldn’t let me be evacuated.
BW: And so you stayed in —
JT: So I stayed at home. And when I became seventeen years of age I joined the local Home Guard which gave me some insight into military training.
BW: And did your sister remain at home at the same, same time? She wasn’t evacuated either or did, did she leave?
JT: She was in a different school.
BW: I see.
JT: So — yeah.
BW: And what prompted you to join the Home Guard at first? Why? Why them?
JT: Just to be military I suppose and wear a uniform. My father was in the ’14/’18 war, in the army and he told me, ‘Don’t go in the army,’ he said, ‘When you’re eighteen.’ So I, I had visions like most eighteen year olds of flying a Spitfire. So, I went to the RAF station, RAF recruiting office in Manchester and volunteered for pilot training. I was accepted. I eventually had to go to Cardington in Bedfordshire to have the aircrew medical and written examination. And then I was waiting then. I was on deferred service until I became a full age for military service. That’s turning eighteen. And, when was it? September 1942 I was called up to the RAF. And they, they had a general course for pilots, navigators and bomb aimers. They called it the PNB Scheme. And you took a general course in navigation, elementary navigation, meteorology, signalling, Morse code and RAF law. And other odds. Engines. Engines. And I did that initial training at Scarborough, Yorkshire.
BW: How long were you there?
JT: About four months I think it was. And then from there I went up to Scone in Scotland, near Perth, where there was a flying, flying school.
[recording interrupted]
BW: So, just to pick up we were, we were saying that you joined the Home Guard and been selected for pilot training and that you’d then completed your initial training and been posted back to Heaton Park. Coincidentally just a mile away from where your parents actually lived.
JT: Yeah.
BW: And your home was in Manchester. So, you were waiting there for your name to come up on a, on a list to either be sent out to Canada, South Africa or where ever.
JT: Further training. Yes. That’s right. And while I was at Heaton Park we used to have a morning parade and a roll call to make sure nobody had buzzed off home with being so frustrated waiting at the, at the — [pause] And so, one morning at the morning parade the person in charge of us said a course had been started for air gunners. And if anybody would like to volunteer to go on to this course then report to the office. So, like a lot of others, they wanted three hundred volunteers and they got over two hundred for these. You see, the point was that Lancasters, Stirlings, Halifaxes carried two gunners and they needed, so they needed more gunners than that. Than any other trade. And so I went and volunteered for air gunner and I was posted to Andreas in the Isle of Man. And there was one of two, one of three airfield on the Isle of Man. There was Andreas was the gunnery school, Jurby was bomb aimer’s and the Royal Navy had taken over Douglas Airport for their, training their Fleet Air Arm people.
BW: Where? What was the first base called?
JT: Andreas.
BW: Andreas?
JT: Andreas. A N D R E A S.
BW: Ok. And that was specifically for air gunnery was it?
JT: Air gunnery training. Yes. Yes. Used to go up on an, in an Avro Anson which had an upper turret and about six of you would go up with the pilot and then an aircraft would come along towing a drogue and you fired from the turret at this drogue. And then when they dropped the drogue on the airfield when you’d finished the exercise they counted the number of holes. And there was six of us firing at it so they divided it by six and that was your score. So, whether you’d hit it or whether you peppered it, you know.
BW: Yeah.
JT: That was the way they worked it.
BW: Nowadays they use, they use coloured paint on the, on the bullets but they didn’t then.
JT: No. No.
BW: They just — right.
JT: So —
BW: This is interesting because at this time in your life you’ve joined the Home Guard. You volunteered for pilot training. You’d been accepted as a pilot.
JT: Yeah.
BW: As you say in your view you were going to fly Spitfires.
JT: I wanted to.
BW: What, what changed in your mind to go for air gunner? What, why the change from pilot?
JT: Frustration.
BW: Simple as that.
JT: Frustration. Not making progress. And that was what it really was. And the same with a lot of other people. And so I passed out on the basis of the number of shots in the, in the drogue. I passed out as an air gunner. As a, they gave me the rank of sergeant and the wing. I got my AG wing. And I was then posted to Upper Heyford in Oxfordshire which was a base where pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, radio operators and so on came there and they formed into crews. And what happened with the pilot this was the, of course the skipper of the crew and he used to be wondering around with a piece of paper and a pencil and he’d go up to a person and say, ‘Have you got a crew yet?’ ‘No sir.’ ‘Would you like to go in my crew?’ Well, an Australian, an Australian flying officer. Flying officer rank pilot said to me, ‘Would you like to join my crew?’ So, I said, ‘Yes. Yes.’ He seemed a nice fellow and I said, ‘I’ll join your crew.’ So he said, ‘First of all, before you definitely decide,’ he said, ‘I’m on retraining because I had a crash and my bomb aimer was killed. We were flying in a Wellington and one engine cut out’. The Wellington didn’t fly very well on one engine and that’s why he crashed. And so I said to him, ‘Well,’ I said, ‘Everybody is allowed one crash.’ So, I said, ‘I’ll join you.’ And I never regretted it. He was a smashing fellow. He was about, I think he was thirty years of age. Which was getting old in flying ranks you know, really. And he said, ‘Come on then. Now you’ve joined me,’ he said, ‘What’s your name?’ So I said, ‘John.’ ‘Right, Johnny.’ And I was Johnny from then on, ‘And, I’ll introduce you to the, I’ll introduce you to the crew. The other members of the crew,’ he said, ‘I’ve been looking for a rear gunner,’ he said, ‘And that’s the final one I wanted.’ So, I said, ‘Ok.’ And there was Herby Phillips the navigator, Canadian. Eric Clem was the mid-upper gunner. Poor Eric never, he didn’t last the war. He was killed. And then there was [pause] do you want the names if I can remember them? There’s Herby Phillips —
BW: Yeah.
JT: Who was the navigator. Canadian.
BW: Eric Clem was the Aussie.
JT: Pardon?
BW: Eric Clem was an Aussie. Is that right?
JT: Eric Clem was an Aussie. Yes. Eric. Yes.
DT: He was your mate wasn’t he?
JT: Pardon?
DT: Eric was your mate.
JT: Can you throw me that red book? That red book off there please.
DT: Yeah.
JT: I made a list of it the other day and — thank you very much.
BW: Was your pilot called MacLaughlin?
JT: David MacLaughlin was the pilot and when he introduced himself he said, ‘My name is David MacLaughlin,’ he said, ‘While we’re flying you call me skipper. But all other times it’s Mac.’ Showing the lack of rank. Not pulling rank you see. So, anyhow, oh dear. I damaged it [pages turning]
DT: Do you want to carry on talking dad?
JT: Here we are.
DT: And I’ll have a look for you.
JT: There we are, Derek.
DT: You’ve got it.
JT: David MacLaughlin pilot. Aussie. Herbert Phillips — navigator. He was Canadian Air Force. The bomb aimer I could never, I can’t remember his name. He was rather a fellow who didn’t mix very well.
BW: Was it Craven? Does that sound familiar? Craven.
JT: Yeah. It does. George Craven was it? Have you got a list of them somewhere? [laughs] Albert Smith, the radio operator. He was from the northeast of England. Reg Hodgkinson was the engineer. He was, he was from Warrington. Eric Clem was the mid-upper gunner. Australian. And myself then. Rear gunner.
DT: Didn’t you start out with another mid-upper?
JT: Pardon?
DT: You started out with another mid-upper gunner didn’t you but he wasn’t able to — ?
JT: Well, we had one. A Canadian. But he couldn’t, he couldn’t stand altitude flying. He used to pass out if he got up to altitude. So that’s when —
BW: And so you swapped him, did you?
JT: Pardon?
BW: You swapped him, did you?
JT: We swapped him. Yeah. Yeah.
DT: It was, was it his skull? His skull hadn’t closed up properly.
JT: That’s right. Yeah.
DT: And there was a hole in the middle of his skull. And when he went up to altitude he passed out. So he was —
JT: Medical problem.
DT: Medical. Yeah.
BW: Wow.
JT: He was a Canadian.
BW: And George Craven. Was he an Aussie or was he, was he British?
JT: George Craven. He was an Aussie. Yeah. But Eric Clem, I said he didn’t last the war. He, he’d done, he did twenty ops with us. Twenty trips with us. Eric. And then he was taken ill with tonsillitis. Went into the sick bay and when he came out he didn’t re-join our crew. And he joined another crew and went, he went to Stuttgart and didn’t, they didn’t come back. He was my room-mate actually. We shared a room. He was a very special little chap. He was twenty nine years of age which was getting on for aircrew really.
BW: Where did you live with the crew? Were you in a Nissen hut or were you in married quarters on the station?
JT: At Waddington? Waddington. Well, it was, was a peacetime base so they had proper built up accommodation over the sergeant’s mess. There’s accommodation for sergeants and like I say I shared a room with Eric until he was killed.
BW: And at this time, you, you’ve met the crew at Upper Heyford and you then were posted as a crew to 467 Squadron at Waddington.
JT: Well, well at first we were at Upper Heyford. We were flying Wellingtons in training. Crew getting, crew getting used to being a crew. Crew training.
BW: What did you think of Wellingtons?
JT: They were alright. Good solid aircraft. Yes. A bit heavy and all that but we didn’t fly in them operationally. It was purely cross-country flying. Bombing practice and things like that. Just straight general training. And then we went from there to Stirlings to swap on to four-engined mark types. Be on four engines then. And that’s where we picked up a navigator - flight engineer. And then from Stirlings we went on to Lancasters. Just a short session. Conversion on to Lancasters and then from there to Waddington.
BW: And do you recall the Conversion Unit where you flew Lancasters?
JT: Was it Wigsley? Was it Wigsley? I’m not sure. I thought it was Wigsley. We went around a bit. No. That was Stirlings. Not Syerston were it? [pages turning]
BW: But as you say you weren’t flying operations at this time. You were just learning to work together as a crew.
JT: To knit together as a crew. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody was still being trained to some extent. Syerston.
BW: I see.
JT: Syerston. That’s where we converted on to Lancasters.
BW: And how long was your course there? How long was your course there? Do you know?
JT: Syerston? Was about a fortnight. Three weeks. It was purely getting used to that type. I mean we’d converted from Wellingtons on to Stirlings for multi-engine. Four engines. And then we’d gone from Stirlings then on to Lancaster conversion because Lancasters were in short supply, you know. Being they were building up the Lancaster force on Bomber Command.
BW: So, so what time, what sort of stage of the war was this? Was this ’41, ’42? Or —
JT: That was in April 1944. That was before D-Day that was of course.
BW: And how did you rate the Stirling aircraft? How did you find them?
JT: It was fairly solid but it was a bit cumbersome. Lumbered along you know. And the thing that struck me really was I was, I was airborne before everybody else because it was quite a long fuselage. They put the tail up to keep the nose down while, while they’re going down the runway and I’m up in the air and everybody else is down on the ground.
BW: And so when you moved then to Waddington to join 467 and start on Lancasters what was your, your impression then? What was the feeling between you and the crew about getting on to Lancasters? Was it like moving from a biplane to a Spitfire? Or was it —
JT: No. From my point of view it was always the same because it was just a turret. Flying in a turret, you see. More and more different for the pilot really and the engineer and that. But from my point of view I just sat in the turret there.
BW: Did the aircraft itself feel different? Lancasters are notoriously cramped.
JT: Yes. It was a comfortable aircraft to fly in. Yes.
BW: You found it comfortable.
JT: Yeah. Found it comfortable. Yes.
BW: And you joined in April ’44. I suppose a similar time of year to what we’re in now but this is in the run up to D-Day which we know now.
JT: Yeah.
BW: Did you sense anything about the coming invasion? Invasion.
JT: No. Not really. What happened, there was a tannoy, you know. The tannoy loudspeaker system around the airfield and there was a tannoy message went out, ‘Will all crews of 467 Squadron report to the briefing room.’ That was one afternoon. And the commanding officer of the squadron told us that, they didn’t say it was D-Day of course because it was still secret then so much but he said, ‘You may be called for an early morning flight. Operation. So, get in to, get, get to bed early tonight and make sure you fully sleep.’ Slept like you see. And about 3 o’clock in the morning there was a hammering on the door and [unclear] much shouting on the corridor. People were being sent to waken all the crews up. And Eric and I got up, got dressed went down to the mess. Had a meal. The usual meal of bacon and egg and all that kind of thing. And, and then from there out to briefing and then we went out to the aircraft. And the thing we noticed as we were going out to the aircraft was they’d painted black and white stripes underneath the wings for recognition purposes. And we, we took off on D-Day morning about, I think it was about 3 or, about 3 o’clock in the morning or something like that. June the 6th [pause pages turning] D-Day. Excuse me. A bit slow.
BW: That’s alright.
DT: You’d done a few ops before then hadn’t you dad?
JT: Pardon?
DT: You’d done a few ops before then hadn’t you?
JT: What? Before D-Day?
DT: D-Day wasn’t your first.
JT: Oh, we’d only done a few before D-Day. Yeah. 2.40. Take off 2.40. St Pierre du Mont in France. That was 2.40 in the morning. And D-Day was quite a thing with us because we went, we went out at like I say 3 o’clock in the morning and as we were flying over, coming back, flying over the Channel — over the Channel there was a vast armada of ships going out. They were going to the landings. And I was going to say about them [pause] anyhow [pause] we flew back, we flew back to our base and they told us then that the D-Day landings, the landings had taken place. And, and again in the afternoon he said you’d be wanted again this evening for a flight. And that was midnight. Now, this was an interesting day. At midnight on D-day. And we took off and of course the Germans always anticipated that the invasion would take place from Dover to Calais. The shortest distance. And they’d stationed a lot of armour and troops south of Calais ready to repel the invasion but it came — it never came. And, so, we, we were detailed on that night of D-Day to bomb some railway, railway tracks. To stop this armour and these troops being transferred from south of Calais, taken over to, to Normandy to, to attack the British forces you see. Anyhow, as we rolled out about, just about midnight almost. Queued up to go on to the runway and then eventually our turn came. We went on the runway. We started, charged up the runway. We were about three quarters of the way along and heard a very loud bang like an explosion. Mac, Mac, in his Aussie twang said, ‘What the bloody hell was that?’ [laughs] And of course nobody knew. Anyway, he pulled it off the ground. We were about three quarters of the way down the runway so we couldn’t, couldn’t stop. We were too far. So, he pulled it off the ground and we carried on and after a few minutes he said there was no, whatever it was it hadn’t affected our controls. So, and the flight engineer said the engine readings are normal. So, Mac said, ‘Ok. We’ll carry on.’ And we carried on, we bombed and we started back and as we crossed the south coast Mac radioed to base and told them we’d got this. Oh no, sorry, before we got to there, as we got to the Channel Mac said, ‘We’d better check the undercarriage,’ and as the wheel went down a big black object flew past my turret. And the engineer looked out. He said, ‘We’ve lost our starboard tyre.’ That big bang was a tyre bursting as we were taking off. So Skip, Mac radioed base at Waddington and told them that we were having this problem. And another thing was as we were heading down towards, towards Waddington we got a constant speed unit in the propeller, in the propeller was, went faulty and we had to shut an engine down. So we were on three engines then. Anyhow, that was on the way to Woodbridge in Suffolk where there was an emergency landing place with a big runway and such. They were kitted out with ambulances and fire engines and all sorts there ready for emergency landings. And so I thought well how was Mac going to get this down, you know, with only one wheel? Anyhow, he went in. He kept this wing up with the dovetail, with the bad wheel and he landed on one wheel and the tail wheel and rolled down the runway and gradually, as we lost speed this wing dropped and the hub that was left after the tyre had gone, the hub hit the ground and we spun around and off the field. Off the strip on to the grass at the side. So, it was a marvellous bit of flying really. To fly a big aircraft like that on one wheel. Yes. So that was D-Day night.
BW: And so you didn’t, you didn’t get out to the target in France? You had to divert before you got there. Is that right? Or did you —
JT: Yeah. No. No. We got to the target. We bombed.
BW: You got to the target. Bombed the target.
JT: And on the way back but we didn’t, we didn’t know what the problem was then. It was only when we started on the way back and we started thinking about what was it? This noise and all that. And Mac put the wheels down and the engineer told us that we’d lost our starboard tyre. So, that was when we first knew about it.
BW: And did you get to find out how successful your attack on the target had been after all that?
JT: Sorry?
BW: Did the, did you get to find out how successful your attack on the target had been after all that?
JT: No. We never did. No. You’d usually get an aiming point photo. They had this, the camera and it was geared up with the bomb, bomb release and it switched, switched on when the, when your bombs had landed. And it should show your bombs. The effect of your bombs. A little camera.
BW: And this aircraft you were flying in at the time, I believe it was S Sugar. Is that right?
JT: Pardon?
BW: I believe the aircraft you were flying in at the time was S Sugar. Is that right?
JT: No. We flew in S for Sugar on our first operational flight.
BW: Just your first one.
JT: First one. June. 28th of May I think it was.
BW: Yeah.
JT: It was S for Sugar.
BT: Handy that log book, isn’t it?
JT: Hmmn?
BT: Handy that log book.
JT: Yes.
BT: Are you looking for something?
JT: July. May. June. What were we talking about? It’s got a W. It wasn’t W. That’s [pause]
BW: Yeah. So that, that’s your first, your first trip.
JT: Well, that was a special exercise, that was a —
BW: But then after that the aircraft you were in on D-Day wasn’t S Sugar then was it? It was, it was another one.
JT: Not D-Day. No.
BW: But that first one you flew in went on to be a well-known Lancaster didn’t it?
JT: It is. It’s, I’ll tell you something about that a bit more [pause] Oh yeah. There. 28th of the May. S for Sugar. 28th of May that.
BW: That’s it. Yeah. Bombing Cherbourg.
JT: Cherbourg. That’s it. So, actually it wasn’t our first. Yes. It was, it would be our first op that. First op because that was a special exercise. That was a special exercise when we flew in it. It was something to do with the radar check on something. And that’s our first trip. That was S for Sugar. Divert a little.
BW: And these are photos that you’ve got of the aircraft in the RAF Museum at Hendon. Is that right?
JT: These. No. No. No, these are Derek’s.
DT: My daughter.
JT: Two grandsons.
DT: My daughter and her husband and my grandsons went down to Hendon.
BW: I see.
DT: A few —
JT: Went down there and —
DT: Well, a few months ago and they took a load of photographs because of my dad’s association with it. They made a little booklet up for him and —
BW: Right.
JT: They allowed them, they allowed them in the prohibited area didn’t they?
DT: Yeah. They did. Yeah.
BW: Yeah. Well, that’s good of them.
JT: There they are.
BW: Yeah. That’s them in front of your turret.
JT: Yeah.
BW: And have you been to the same aircraft in Hendon? Have you seen it yourself?
JT: Well, I’ve been there a couple of times. Yes, and introduced myself. And they sent a young lad, a young chap with us who was on the section and he said he could he could take you to the aircraft. He took us down there and he undid the door and let us climb in. He said, ‘I can’t,’ he said, ‘I don’t know a lot about it,’ he said, ‘Because I’ve only just come on this section. So, I can’t tell you a lot about the Lancaster.’ I said, ‘Well I’ll tell you shall I?’ [laughs]
DT: Is that when you said it didn’t smell the same?
JT: Pardon?
DT: It didn’t smell the same.
JT: No. No. That was one thing that struck me was the smell. And then I realised a long time afterwards that there was no fuel in it, you see. It was an exhibition piece. There was no fuel in it for precautions. Safety precautions. So the aircraft didn’t smell the same [laughs]
BW: And when you were going on ops it presumably had a heavy smell of fuel in it.
JT: Oh yes. Yeah. Well, it always did when you were going on ops or not, you know. You could always smell the aircraft. Yeah.
BW: And when you were preparing for these early trips what sort of things did you have to do? What, what were you doing yourself to prepare for the, for the operations?
JT: Well, of course you had, you had your meal first and you were waited on by WAAFs. They volunteered to wait on us. A courtesy measure, you know for the lads that were going on ops. And anyhow then you went to, along to the, one of the hangars and they got to give you your flying rations. Which were boiled, a packet of boiled sweets, packets of chewing gum and [pause] what else was there? Boiled sweets, chewing gum, oh a block of chocolate. And depending on how, how long the flight was going to be depended on when you got two bags of chocolate [laughs] And then you went and picked up your parachute. You’d already picked up your flying gear from your locker and you picked up your parachute from the parachute store. And then you’d go out to the crew bus and they’d take you out to the aircraft. And that was the only preparation we did really. Picking up stuff we needed. Yeah.
BW: Did you attend the briefing with the rest of the crew?
JT: Oh yes. Yes. Oh yes. They had a long table. A long, you know, a collapsible table and benches, seat, chairs. And each crew used to gather around a table and the navigator usually had a map in front of him and he was already working on a flight plan. Yeah.
BW: And when you see it in films, where they unveil a map on a wall, was that the same kind of thing or different?
JT: Yes. Yes. Sometimes. I mean, once everybody was in they shut the door, the blinds were down and everything and then there was a map on the wall with a tape, a red tape going from your base down to where ever the target was. And the squadron commander would give, first give a chat about what the target was for and why it was picked for a target. What was being done there. Aircraft production or bombs or whatever. And then of course the Met officer. The meteorological officer would then give the weather report for the flight. What it was expected to be like over the target. Clear or not and, and what it would be like when you came back. And diversions. Possibly diversions if, if your airfield was fogged out. Of course Lincolnshire. You got quite a bit of mist in Lincolnshire. And you had to perhaps plan to be away from home when you come back.
BW: Most of your targets at this time are over France in preparation for D-Day. Did you get to fly over Germany at all?
JT: Oh yes. Yes. I’ve never logged precisely how many of each. Each way. But —
BW: Was there a difference in the operation between targets in France and Germany? Did you, did you feel one was more dangerous than the other? Or one was easier than the other?
JT: Well, Germany was obviously — particularly in what they called the Ruhr Valley. That, that was a bad place to go. And I can’t think what we used to call it now but I mean we were at Cherbourg, France which is only just on the coast you see. It isn’t so bad. We did one flight to Königsberg on the Baltic and the actual time was ten hours or something like that. So, it was a long flight. Down Stuttgart. That was where Eric was killed. But this wasn’t, he wasn’t on this flight. That was a eight hour. Eight hours. You notice, you notice the writing changes because Mac, the pilot’s, captain, the crew captain used to collect all the logbooks for his crew and he used to mess about with the logbook, you see. And Mac said to me, ‘You’re not putting enough information on. I’ll keep your logbook for you in the future.’ And that’s why. Why the writing changes.
BW: I see. So —
JT: I just used to put Ops — [unclear] Ops — St Pierre du Mont and then, but Mac put all sorts of, these sort of things down,
BW: What has he put on that one?
JT: Which one?
BW: What has he put on this one?
JT: “Ops Rennes. Landed at Skellingthorpe. Diversion was unsuitable.” Skellingthorpe was next door to our base. Next door to Waddington. There was Skellingthorpe, Bardney and Waddington were in a little group. That says, “Landed at Skellingthorpe.” It must have been fog. So, we were diverted there. I think we did about a third were German and the remainder were France because it would be about D-Day. Around about D-Day of course when we were very much involved in things. Königsberg, East Prussia. Ten hour fifty.
BW: And on such long trips like that how did you keep yourself occupied?
JT: Keeping my eyes open [laughs]. That was important. Yeah. Keep a look out you know. At night time of course. I remember one instance we were on a daylight operation actually. We were flying along and we were coming back and another aircraft just in front of us like that and I saw a Junkers 88. A fighter, German fighter, the 188 which had radar on the nose. And we were flying along and I saw this 188 so I told the skipper like, I said, ‘Junkers 88 starboard quarter. Starboard quarter level.’ So far, such a range. I forgot what it was now and so he said, ‘Keep your eye on it.’ Anyhow, the mid-upper gunner said, ‘I think he’s creeping up on this other Lancaster. And they don’t seem aware that he’s there. He’s coming up on them.’ I said, ‘Shall I fire a burst at him?’ So, the bomb aimer was a bit, you know. The bomb aimer said, George, he said, ‘No. No,’ he said, ‘Don’t you fire at him,’ he said, ‘He may come and turn on to us.’ I said, ‘Well we can’t sit here and watch. And watch him shoot that fellow down can we?’ I said, ‘Let’s give him a warning shot.’ And that’s what I did. Skipper said, ‘Yes. Go ahead.’ So, I gave a warning shot at this Junkers 88. And then the rear gunner of this other aircraft then opened up. And our mid-upper opened and he just dived away. The 88. And so then it was where had he gone to? Had he come around or was he coming around the other side. Where was he? Was he going to be a bit spiteful at us depriving him of his target? But we got away with it.
BW: And the other aircraft remained unscathed as well.
JT: Oh yes. Yeah. Yes.
BW: And when you fired that burst what, what sort of guns are you firing? Are they the 303s or did they change to the .5s at this time?
JT: The 303 Brownings. Four. Four 303 Brownings. And they were [pause] Yeah.
BW: How did you rate them? Did you find them effective weapons?
JT: Yes. Yes. I mean when I fired at this 88 I could see my bullets striking his [pause] they had the port. The port engines. They call it covers. Striking the cowlings on the, on the starboard. On the port engine. But how effective it was I don’t know. It didn’t shoot him down.
BW: But it winged him.
JT: Yes. It frightened him off perhaps.
BW: And was that the only time that you fired your guns at a target?
JT: No.
BW: Or did you get opportunity to use them on other occasions?
JT: Well, had one or two pops off at different ones. But we weren’t, we weren’t really, I wouldn’t say attacked. We were never attacked by a fighter. I got the impression if you fired at them and showed them that you were awake they went off. They weren’t interested. Yeah.
BW: So, just coming back to the start of a mission. When you get in to the aircraft to get into your turret what sort of actions are you going through then? What do you do to settle yourself into the turret?
JT: Well, just get in. Check the gunsight is lit up and of course plug into your intercom so that you’re in communication with the skipper and others. Couple up to the oxygen system. And you’re sitting on, in the latter part you were sitting on a parachute as a cushion of course.
BW: A seat pack.
JT: Yeah. A pilot, a pilot’s type pack they called it. Meaning the other one is the observer pack they called it. That was the one with the chest. Chest pack.
BW: But when you were carrying your ‘chute you had the seat pack. You, you sat on your chute. You didn’t stow it.
JT: Sat on it. Yes. Sat on the parachute. That was an advantage being in the rear turret really because if you had to bale out you turned the turret on the beam so that you were facing that way as you were going along this way say. Open the doors behind you, uncouple your, your plugs and pick your knees up and roll out backwards. And you sit on your parachute. So it was an easy place to get out of. Safest place. Safer than the mid-upper. I wouldn’t have liked sitting on the mid-upper turret.
BW: Did you ever, you never swapped positions?
JT: No. No.
BW: Or flew in that position at all.
JT: I didn’t want to.
BW: You stayed purely rear turret.
JT: No. As a mid-upper he’d got to come down out of from his turret. Down the roof of the bomb bay. Down on to the back. Back end. And then turn to the door, open the door. And if the aeroplane was going like that that, you know it was a bit of a job.
BW: But you never had to bale out.
JT: Oh no. No. I got it planned in my mind. I knew just what I would do.
BW: And what did you, what was your plan if you had to bale out?
JT: To bale out? Well like I say —
BW: You would turn the turret around and bale out but did you, did your plan extend to what you would do on the ground once you were down there?
JT: No. Well, some of the lectures you had were on escape procedures and all that kind of thing. To try and get what they called a home run. You’ve been aware of all this haven’t you? What’s your connection with the RAF?
BW: Me personally? I, I had a couple of years in pilot training in the mid-80s but it was, well for me personally, I was nineteen, twenty years old and, you know flying a jet at that age was ultimately not something I was cut out for so, you know, I left. But in the same manner that that you were briefed on escape and evasion procedures we had as well. And we had exercises in the country about things, you know. You were briefed on what you could expect. And of course flying over enemy territory you had escape kit as well, didn’t you? You had things like silk handkerchiefs with maps on them.
JT: Oh yeah. Yes.
BW: Compass in buttons and things like that.
JT: That’s right. A compass. Two buttons. Two buttons. You’d cut them off and one had a little pin in it like that in the middle and a dimple in the top one and that was, made a little compass in those. Yes.
BW: Thankfully you never had to use them.
JT: No.
BW: You had a good pilot who got you back every time.
JT: Oh yes. Got me back. Oh yes. He was a good pilot.
BW: You said you got on pretty well as a crew altogether.
JT: Hmmn?
BW: You said you got on pretty well as a crew altogether.
JT: Oh yeah. Yes. We got on.
BW: But did you socialise together after the operations?
JT: Not really. No. No. Didn’t [pause] That’s one thing I regretted really. That we didn’t have a sort of a get together after. When we’d finished. Mac was awarded a DFC and when he was going he came to me one day he said, ‘I’m going down to London,’ he said, ‘And he didn’t say about his DFC but I found out afterwards.’ He said, ‘I’m going down to London,’ he said, ‘And they’re flying me down there,’ he said, ‘I believe you’re going to — ’ what is it called? Near Market Harborough. He said, ‘I believe you’re going to,’ so and so, ‘Can we drop you off there?’ So, I said, ‘Oh yes. If you don’t mind.’ So, I got my two kit bags and my other pack and all that and he said, he said, ‘I’m in a hurry,’ he said, ‘So, as quickly as you can.’ And I never got time to say anything to the other lads before I went. And I thought afterwards, you know, it was a bit rotten after flying together all that time.
BW: And so that sounds as though it was the end of your tour when that happened. Is that right?
JT: End of the —
BW: Was it the end of your tour when that happened?
JT: Oh yes. Yes. See they stipulated that you were required to do thirty five ops. The squadron’s commander decided how many trips you had to do to complete what they called a tour of operations. And different squadrons had different numbers. Some had thirty. Some had thirty five and ours was thirty five. Mac, when the crew first arrived on the squadron from training the pilots of course had no operational experience so, they used to send them on a trip or two trips if possible with an experienced crew. And to get, see what, what the Pathfinders approach to things, you know. Over the target and that. And the, I was going to say [pause] anyhow I never got the chance to say goodbye to anybody or exchange addresses or anything. So completely lost touch with them. That was it.
DT: That’s why you did thirty three ops wasn’t it?
JT: Pardon?
DT: That’s why you did thirty three operations and not thirty five.
JT: Oh well, we did thirty three.
DT: Because Mac had done two.
JT: Out of thirty five. Well, Mac did two of these experience trips so we needed thirty five. They said that’s it. So we only did thirty three.
BW: And you, you didn’t go on to serve with another crew. You stopped at that point and finished altogether.
JT: That was it, yeah. Yeah.
BW: And in your log there are some targets that you attacked at the end of June which were V-1 sites. Do you recall what was briefed about those at all? Were they static sites or just storage areas or —
JT: Well, there was Peenemunde of course which was attacked. That was where the Germans were concentrating their rocket activities. But no it was at a targets, you know. You were given a target and that was it. You go and do the job. It’s rather strange you know because our last trip was, was to Mönchengladbach in Germany. And we bombed there one night. That last one and that was it. And 1956 I think it was, our swim, we belonged to a swimming club, the boys and Betty and myself belonged to a swimming club in Manchester. And one of the boys had been in the army at Mönchengladbach and he had formed a friendship with youngsters in the swimming club there [unclear] himself. And he formed this friendship and then the club, their club decided to come over to England and have a joint swimming competition with our club. And it was from Mönchengladbach. And they asked us to, would our members accommodate some youngsters? So we said we’d have two boys. Having three sons of our own. And Heinz and Hans Peter. Hans Peter has died since but Heinz and his wife Sabina, we’re still in touch with them. We’ve been over a few times. They’ve been over here. And I’m walking around Mönchengladbach and think well I bombed this place a few years ago, you know.
DT: Didn’t they take you to a hill dad?
JT: Pardon?
DT: They took you to a hill that was built out of rubble.
JT: Oh yes. Yes. At the back of Sabina and Heinz house there’s this mound. Big mound grassed over and a path leading up so you go up and seats and a garden on the top. A memorial garden. And Sabina said to me one time, she said, her English was very good. She said, ‘Do you know what this is, John?’ I said, ‘What? No.’ So she said, ‘This is rubble from when they were bombed during the war.’ So, I said, ‘Oh dear,’ you know. I didn’t tell her we’d made it, we helped to contribute to it because they were a smashing couple. Yeah.
BW: Did you ever get to see any of the V-1s that you were attacking the ground —
JT: No.
BW: Targets for.
JT: No.
BW: It was just another —
JT: Another target.
BW: Another target.
JT: Yeah.
BW: There were a couple of times where you flew in support of allied troops. One was over Caen and the other was over Königsberg. Did you get to see any of the troops on the ground or were you too high for that?
JT: Oh, too, we would be too high. Yes. Yes.
BW: Your CO, I believe was a Wing Commander Brill.
JT: Brill. Yes. Yes.
BW: What do you recall of him? He was Australian, wasn’t he?
JT: Australian. Yes. Wing Commander Brill. Yes. Deegdon was the flight commander. A fellow called Deegdon.
BW: Deedon?
JT: Flight commander.
BW: And which flight were you in on your squadron?
JT: I can’t remember.
BW: Ok.
JT: No. I can’t remember. He was Australian. Deegdon. I’m not sure whether Brill was killed later in a flying accident. I seem to remember.
BW: Your last trip in your log is to, is it Rheydt. R H E Y D T is that?
JT: Rheydt. Rheydt. Yeah.
BW: Rheydt.
JT: Yeah.
BW: And there was a notable incident on the, on that that raid. Do you recall what it was?
JT: To Rheydt. That was Mönchengladbach. Rheydt. Mönchengladbach.
BW: And who was the master bomber?
JT: Oh yes. Gibson. Guy Gibson. He was killed on that raid. Yeah.
BW: Was there any information given to you about what had happened to him?
JT: No. No. No. I don’t recall. Guy Gibson. Yeah. Wait a minute, yes. Just a minute. I saw, I could tell you something on that. As we were coming back over Holland, we were coming back over Holland and I saw, looking down I saw this twin-engined aircraft on fire. Flying on fire. And it was obviously under control because I thought it was trying to force land. And I saw it hit the ground and burst into flames. And when we got back to base they told us Guy Gibson hadn’t reported back. And I never connected the two facts of seeing this twin-engined, this twin-engined aircraft on fire. I never connected that with him at that time and it was a long time after that that it really hit home that it, there was a possibility.
BW: Because he was in a Mosquito.
JT: A Mosquito. That’s right. Yeah.
BW: And killed over Holland.
JT: Yeah.
BW: It was said that he was heard giving the crews on that raid a pat on the back before turning for home. Was that something that you recall and was it something that was broadcast to crews? Were you able to hear something like that or, or not?
JT: Well, we would have heard. We would perhaps would have heard it over the intercom but I don’t recall anything of that. No.
BW: Were messages broadcast between aircraft that you could hear on the intercom as well or was that only between the wireless operators on each aircraft? Could you? Could you hear exchanges on any raids with other aircraft?
JT: No. I don’t think there was never much communication between aircraft. The master bomber used to, used to communicate with the crews and you know, call in. You were in a flight. You were a wave. You know, you were wave one, two or three. You were told that when you were being briefed. You would be on such a wave. And timings were based on that and [pause] but the master bomber would, if the target, if the aiming of the target, you know, they dropped a marker to, as an aiming point. If it wasn’t accurate they’d say add two or three seconds or something like that to, for overshoot. If the targets, if the flare drops there and the target’s there and you’re coming this way he’d say three. Add three. And you’ve got your bombsight goes through, through the marker and then you’ve got the one, two, three - bang. Drop yours.
BW: Yeah. So, if the marker has fallen short of the target.
JT: Short of the target.
BW: And you’re heading in the direction of the marker you then add three seconds in order to hit the target.
JT: That’s right. To do that.
BW: And when the master bomber was giving you those kind of instructions could you as crew members hear that on the intercom?
JT: Oh yes. We’d hear that. Yes.
BW: And were there occasions when you recognised master bombers perhaps? Like Gibson. Had you heard him before?
JT: Not really. You knew who the master bomber was. And Willie Tait was another one. Willie Tait. Guy Gibson. One or two. One or two were a bit unpopular because they made a cock up of it sometimes. Some of these master bombers.
BW: And did you get to meet Gibson or —
JT: I saw him once. When I was at the Isle of Man. When I was in training. And there was a squadron was walking along, marching along to a lecture and the chappy who was in charge of us said, ‘Oh, here comes the CO.’ And they were coming, a group of about four or five people. Officers. And of course eyes right, you know. That kind of thing. And one of them was Guy Gibson. Yeah. And it was after the dams raid so he was known, you know, and that. And that was at, that was at Andreas. Want to see if it is in the logbook? I’ve got his logbook here. A copy.
BW: How did you come by that?
JT: I forget now. Somebody gave it me.
BW: And what was, this was after the dams but what was his reputation?
JT: I couldn’t really say. Supposed to be umpty, a bit huffy sometimes, you know. This is when I was at Andreas. It would be somewhere about [pause pages turning] Trying to pinpoint when Gibson was [pause] he had a friend on the camp. Some other officer. And he’d come to visit him and he’d flown in to —
BW: I see.
JT: Andreas. To see his friend. That would be August ’43.
BW: Right.
JT: It was round about that time but if it’s in his logbook I don’t know.
BW: Yeah. The log here that you’ve got a copy of says September 16th 1944. This is a copy of Gibson’s own logbook. It says his last recorded trip was in a Lightning. Which would be a P38.
JT: Yeah.
BW: From Langford Lodge. So, prior to that he’d been flying Oxfords but interspersed with Lightnings and Mosquitoes. So —
JT: It doesn’t say his destination does it?
BW: Langford Lodge. To and from Langford Lodge. That’s all. But —
JT: No. I mean I wouldn’t have —
BW: It seems he’s not been long on that op. On those, on that tour. But when you were out over the targets of these places particularly over, over Germany what was, what was the area like? I mean, were you able to see much or was there frequently heavy cloud or were you able to see a lot out of the —
JT: Well, you could see a lot. You could see the, you could see the fires and things like that. And we were too high to see, see much you know. You couldn’t see people or anything like that.
[pause]
BW: You’d done, in total thirty three ops in just over four months which was pretty consistent flying really. Did you want to continue and carry on and do another tour?
JT: Well, I did. I went from operational flying on to instructing at OTU. Operational Training Unit. And then one of the pilots [pause] I’m trying to think which one it was [pause] One of the pilot instructors said to me one day, ‘I’m getting a crew together to go back on ops. Do you want to come with me?’ So, I said, ‘Yeah, I’ll come with you.’ So, and, well that must have been before, before June. June ’46 was it? ’45. Anyhow, he said, I said, ‘Alright, I’ll come with you.’ So, we went into the training and while we were in training we went to, we went to 100 Squadron for training and [pause] just casting my mind back and it developed then that the war was over. So, there was no point in us completing. And then he decided to cut down squadron strength and of course we were all old stages more or less — due for early de-mob. We were the first lots to be de-mobbed. So, so they made us redundant. Our crew. And, and then I was told I was going to 9 Squadron. At Waddington strangely enough. Back to Waddington. Of course, 9 Squadron was an old First World War squadron. Number 9. Oh and a chappy, Pete Langdon, he was the, he was the deputy commander of the squadron. And that’s when we went out to India. I went and reported to the 9 Squadron adjutant when I arrived. I was posted as a single, as an individual rather than with a crew. And I went in to the adjutant and he said, ‘Hello John, how are you?’ and he was, he’d been one of the instructors with me instructing. And so he said, ‘Did you come to join us?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘We’re going out to Hong Kong.’ So, I said, ‘Oh, I’ll come with you. I’ll join you on that.’ And anyhow, we finished up at Salbani in India. Which was a different place altogether.
BW: And what was it like out there?
JT: Pardon?
BW: What was it like out there?
JT: What? Salbani. Well, just, just out in the wilds. Out in the wilds really. There was, there was the airfield. The airfield, the railway station and that was about all.
BW: Did you get much time off? Off duty? Were you able to go off base into the nearby town?
JT: No. No. Didn’t go off. The nearest place was Calcutta. I went there twice. I went on the train and went twice. I got nose bleed and, I broke my nose when I was a kid you see and it used to bleed sometimes. They said it was the heat causing the rise in blood pressure. I went sick and they sent me to Calcutta to see the ear, nose and throat specialist. I went twice.
BW: How long were you out in India for?
JT: About four months. Yeah. Be four month. Yeah. January to April. January the 2nd we took off. Should have gone on the 1st but the weather wasn’t suitable. Flew to [pause] North Africa and then along over the desert to Karachi. Sorry. To Egypt. Egypt. Egypt to [pause] oh my mind’s going. From Egypt to —
BW: Would you fly to —
JT: Karachi. North Africa.
DT: You went to Italy first didn’t you?
JT: Pardon?
DT: Didn’t you go to Italy first?
JT: I went to Italy. I went to Italy on, that was Operation Dodge.
DT: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JT: Dodge they called it. The flying troops back. Flying the 8th Army chaps back. In fact, there’s a picture of them in. This aircraft was included in it.
BT: Are you warm enough love?
BW: I’m fine thank you, yes.
BT: Are you warm enough David?
DT: I’m fine, love. Yeah. No problem.
BW: Yeah. So they did. They did. Yeah, they did repatriate soldiers and POWs in Lancasters. Yeah. Operation Exodus.
JT: This wasn’t prisoners. This was the 8th Army.
BW: 8th Army. So, that’s an original photo of S Sugar with, as you say troops from the 8th Army about to board. And what were you? Were you still flying Lancasters out in India or were you flying something different?
JT: Oh yes. Lancasters. Yeah. Yeah. Glad. Yeah.
BW: And when you, when you returned back to the UK what, what happened then?
JT: Well, I got married. Didn’t we? [laughs] Yeah. 1946.
BW: And where had you both met?
JT: Hmmn?
BW: Where had you both met? Where did you meet each other?
JT: Oh, we grew up together. Lived in the same road, didn’t we?
BT: Lived on the same road.
JT: Yeah.
BW: So, you’d known each other for years before you joined up.
JT: Oh yeah.
DT: You lived at, what was it mum? You lived number 65.
BT: What?
DT: You lived at number 65 and dad lived at 57.
BT: 57.
JT: That’s right.
BT: So he knew all about me.
DT: And didn’t mess about.
BW: So he knew what he was getting in to.
BT: What love?
BW: He knew what he was letting himself in for.
BT: Oh, he knew what he was taking on. Yeah.
DT: There was no messing about because that was my mum’s dad.
BT: That was my dad. A policeman.
JT: A copper.
BW: I see.
DT: That was, that’s my grandad.
JT: She’s like her father.
BW: Yeah.
DT: He was a big man.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Thirty years. Thirty years in the police.
BT: Lovely fellow wasn’t he John? Really nice.
JT: Oh yeah.
BW: He looks like he, he’d had service too. Did he serve in the Second War or was he in the First?
JT: No. Well he’d got the defence —
BT: A policeman.
JT: He’d got, the policeman and ambulanceman and fireman all got the defence medal didn’t they?
BW: Alright. Thank you.
BT: He used to take the kids at that time you used to take the kids across, you know from, from the school to the other side of the road and they all used to run just so to take hold of his hand.
DT: He was huge. He was about — how tall was he? Six foot something.
BT: Six foot seven.
BW: Wow.
BT: Something like that.
DT: He was the police, the police tug of war team. He was the anchorman.
BW: I should hope so.
BT: Got some lovely presents. Some lovely prizes. Cups and things, you know.
BW: So, when you returned from India you got married and then you were demobbed.
JT: I was demobbed in, soon enough. I enrolled at St John’s Wood. Lord’s Cricket Ground, St John’s Wood. I was de-mobbed at Wembley Stadium.
DT: Didn’t you go on Lincolns dad?
JT: Pardon?
DT: Didn’t you go on to Lincolns?
JT: Ah yes. We went on to Lincolns for a short while. Yes.
BW: And where were you flying those from?
JT: Lincolns? [pause] Binbrook was it? Or Lindholme? Lindholme. Number 9 Squadron attached to Lindholme for —
BW: So, you wouldn’t have been months then doing that. Once you came back from India you wouldn’t be many months with 9 Squadron would you?
JT: Yes. I were with 9 Squadron until the end of the war. Until I was demobbed rather. When we were on Lincolns. I were demobbed from the 9 Squadron.
BW: I see.
JT: At Binbrook. Binbrook. When we came back from India.
BW: Once you left the RAF what did you go on to do then?
JT: I went, I worked for the CWS before. In Manchester. The Coop headquarters in Manchester. I worked for them before I went in the RAF and when I came out of course they had to give me my job back. And I went, I was in the sales accounts department.
BW: For the Co-op.
JT: For the Co-op. Yes. In their head office there and the chappy who was made the boss. The boss retired, the manager of the department. He’d stayed on extra years during the war and of course when peace came he, he opted for his retirement. And the chap who took over as boss, he’d married one of the CWS director’s daughters. So, of course he was a squadron leader in the RAF and when he came back he, they gave him, the boss gave him the bosses job when the boss retired. They gave him his job. And he said to me one day, I mean he had a bit of a soft spot for being ex-RAF as well. He said to me, he said, ‘There’s a vacancy in the taxation department,’ he said, ‘Are you interested?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘It will pay better than this department.’ So, I said, ‘Oh yeah. Certainly.’ So I got the job in taxation. Company tax work. And very interesting it was. Cut and thrust with the Inland Revenue you know and sending, we used to do audits for various Co-op societies and I used to do the tax work then. So, what they had to pay in tax from the profits or how money we got back from them for the losses and such. You know. And I finished up as managing the department at one time. And then they merged. They merged with the auditors and you’ve heard of KPMG have you?
BW: Accountants.
JT: On London Road. And they merged with them so I was just about due for retiring then so I got out. And I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the work. Interesting.
BW: I can think of a few people who’d be, who’d be asking for your skills. I can think of a few people who would be asking for your skills these days.
JT: Oh yeah.
BW: Somebody who lives at number 10 I think.
DT: Yours was company tax wasn’t it? You were company tax. Not personal tax.
BW: Yeah.
JT: Company tax. Not individuals. It was company tax. Yes.
DT: But you used to fill my tax forms in and you’d say, ‘Cross that out. Cross that out. Sign. Tick that, tick that, tick that. Sign that,’ he said, ‘That’ll be thirty guineas.’
[pause]
DT: You managed to fly Lancasters as well didn’t you dad?
JT: Pardon?
DT: You managed to fly Lancasters.
JT: Oh, I did fly a Lancaster once. Yeah.
DT: Yeah.
BW: How did you manage that?
JT: Well, we had a pilot who decided that it would be a good idea if different crew members interchanged. So, he said, ‘Here John,’ he said, ‘Fly this.’ I said, ‘Oh aye. Go on.’ I got in the pilot’s seat. Flew it. But just straight and level stuff, more or less, you know.
DT: He wanted to make sure you got home.
JT: Hmmn?
DT: He wanted to make sure he got home in case, if he was hurt.
JT: Well, no this was after.
DT: That was after was it?
JT: After all. Yeah.
DT: Oh, I thought it was —
JT: No. Mac didn’t. No. Mac was, Mac was the pilot.
DT: Yeah.
JT: He was in charge.
DT: Oh right.
BW: Was he pretty strict about that sort of thing?
JT: Yeah. He were a good pilot.
BW: There’s a photo here of your CO and the Duke of Gloucester. Duke of Gloucester’s on the left there.
JT: He became —
BW: And your CO —
JT: Yeah. He was at, he was made the Governor General of Australia wasn’t he. So he came to an Australian squadron to say, when he went to Australia there he could genuinely, could say, ‘I’ve met the lads in England,’ you know. That kind of thing. Yeah.
BW: Do you recall that visit taking place? It would be about the time you were on.
JT: No. No.
BW: Waddington.
JT: I do remember actually. We were told he was coming but I, we’d been on operation that previous night and I said, I’m not getting up to go and see him [laughs] Yes.
BW: There was a couple of Australian crewmen in that photo too.
JT: Yeah. Wing Commander Brill. Yeah.
BW: Did you happen to know them? The other, the other crewmen. They’re named.
JT: No. I don’t. Where did you get this from? Got secret information. Got me here.
BW: That’s from the Australian War Museum that particular photo. But you shared that that base at Waddington with 463 Squadron as well didn’t you?
JT: 463 and 467. That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
BW: And did you get to mix with them at all from the other?
JT: Not really. You didn’t really know. You know there was just a mass of fellows and you didn’t know whether they were 463 or 467. The only, the only near association and strangely enough it was, that was through Derek. That mate of yours who [pause] they formed [pause] what do you call it? Oh God. What’s his name? His father. Johnson.
DT: Johnson. Max Johnson.
JT: Johnson. Johnson. That’s right.
DT: Peter Johnson. Max Johnson was his father and Max Johnson was on 467 Squadron wasn’t he?
JT: That’s right, yeah.
DT: Yeah. And he’s actually listed as one of the pilots of POS at the time.
JT: Yeah.
DT: Yeah.
JT: That’s right. Yeah.
DT: Another coincidence, Brian. I worked for a company. I worked in the chemical research department and I was seconded to a university in Australia to do a research project over there. I was there for two months I think it was. My wife and my daughter came with us and and in the department there was, I was talking to some of the lads in the lab and in the research area and I was saying, ‘Oh, my dad was in the Royal Australian Air Force.’ And they said, ‘Oh you want to come and see Doc Pete. A fellow called Peter Brownall.’ And they said he was on Lancasters during the war. So, they took me along to see this elderly university lecturer and we got talking. A really nice guy you know. And he says, he says what squadron were you with? I said, ‘What squadron were you with?’ So he said 467. I said, ‘Oh that was my dad’s squadron. 467.’ But he was slightly after my dad and I think he was just there, he was there just as the war finished. He’d done his training and he got on to the squadron but 467 then was at Metheringham. And so he was absolutely hacked off because the war had ended and he hadn’t been able to —
BW: Yeah.
DT: Go on operations.
BW: Participate.
DT: So, he was flown, he flew back then to Australian and took up his post as, I think a botany lecturer. Some sort of science lecturer, you know.
BW: Yeah.
DT: So I was talking to him and it was interesting. And there was a not a DVD but a tape of that time. This was 1994. A tape had been produced about, called, “The Lancaster at war,” and I told him about this. So, when I got home I searched out a copy of it and posted it off for him. And I got a really nice letter back you know, thanking me for this. And he said he’d had to go out and buy a tape player and people had been coming around and he’d been, you know he’d been showing this Lancaster thing, Lancaster tape to all his, all his pals. But he was a nice chap. And do you remember that cartoon that he gave me? And it was —
[recording paused]
BW: Last, I think, section to, to cover. Since your retirement and since you left the RAF how does it feel to see Bomber Command being commemorated after all this time? There’s now the Hyde Park Memorial and there’s the Spire in Lincoln?
JT: It should be. It should be.
BW: Have you been to the unveiling of the Memorial Spire in Lincoln?
JT: No. No.
BW: Did you go last year?
JT: No. No.
BW: So, you —
JT: I don’t think that should have been built in London. It should have been built in Lincoln.
BW: Well, the Memorial in Green Park was unveiled a few years ago but they are, they have unveiled a Memorial Spire at Canwick Hill which is what the Bomber Command Centre are responsible for. Have you, have you seen that? Have you been?
JT: No.
BW: No.
JT: I haven’t. No.
BW: But it’s in, and certainly I’m sure you’d agree it’s in the right place. You know, it’s —
JT: Oh, it is. Yeah.
BW: So, there’s a spire which is the height of a Lancaster’s wingspan and it has memorial walls made of steel situated around it. And that’s where the Centre will be built. The Chadwick Centre which will house the digital archive which, you know, this information is going to go into. But you can —
JT: I don’t know if I’ll ever get over to Lincoln now.
BW: Well if you do it’s, it’s worth seeing.
JT: Yeah.
BW: They had a, they had a beautiful unveiling ceremony last year and a flypast. Unfortunately, the Lancaster couldn’t make it but they got the Vulcan instead. And that was, that was really special. If you do get the chance do go and have a look. So, are you, are you glad these sort of commemorations for Bomber Command are coming about now?
JT: Sorry?
BW: Are you glad these sorts of commemorations for Bomber Command are coming about?
JT: Oh yeah. I am glad. Yes. There’s, because there are so many uniques in the army and so on, and navy and they were specifically honoured. And Bomber Command, I think people regarded them as dirty words because of bombing civilians. I think that’s been a failing really.
[recording paused while John leaves the room for a moment]
JT: A while later. A few years later I went to see him. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘The firm’s selling up. They’re merging with someone else,’ he said, ‘I’m retiring.’ So, he said, ‘Good luck,’ and all that. So, anyhow a few days later a partner from the firm came with a parcel and he gave me that. Gave me that picture. And I rang this chappy up to thank him for sending it and he said, ‘Well, it belongs to you more than it belongs to me,’ he said, ‘You did some good work for us,’ and all that and so —
BW: And that’s —
JT: He gave it me.
BW: And that’s how you acquired the picture.
JT: That’s how it came. Yeah.
BW: And so you’ve always, you’ve always got that association now with.
JT: [unclear] yeah.
BW: POS and you know.
JT: Yeah.
BT: That was good of them wasn’t it?
BW: And it’s, you know, on permanent display now in the RAF Museum.
JT: Yeah.
BW: So, that’s brilliant. So, when you, when you look back over your career in the RAF has it given you good memories, and?
JT: Oh yes. I’ve got good memories. Some good mates, and you know it was, it’s alright. It’ll be alright. Yes. I never regretted going. Yeah.
BW: We’ll move on to other things like the photographs and whatever. So, you know, for the, for the audio anyway I’ll leave it there for now. So, thank you very much for your time. For the interview. And for giving the information to the International Bomber Command Centre. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with John Foster Thorp
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AThorpJF160412, PThorpJF1601
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:38:37 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
John Thorp was born and raised in Manchester where he attended North Manchester Grammar School. At seventeen he joined the Home Guard. When he was eighteen he volunteered for the RAF with dreams of becoming a pilot. While waiting at Heaton Park to transfer to further training overseas he became increasingly frustrated with the lack of progress. When invited to volunteer to train as a gunner he decided to accept because he wanted to progress. After training he was posted with his crew to 467 Squadron at RAF Waddington. Returning from the operation on D-Day he saw the massed armada waiting to sail to the landing grounds in Normandy. On take-off to an operation there was a loud bang heard throughout the aircraft. When they returned from the target they tested the undercarriage and the wheel flew past John’s turret. They had to effect an emergency landing at Woodbridge and the pilot completed a remarkable landing.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Lincolnshire
England--Suffolk
Germany--Mönchengladbach
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1942
1944
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
467 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
civil defence
crewing up
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Home Guard
Ju 88
Lancaster
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
RAF Binbrook
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Waddington
RAF Woodbridge
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1018/11482/BWynnDWynnIAv1.1.pdf
9dec228d01b48b5c5ece6433260ba0f1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wynn, Ian Archer
I A Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
146 Items. Collection concerns Pilot Officer Ian Archer Wynn (1908 - 1943, 146838 Royal Air Force). After training as ground crew he remustered as a flight engineer and flew operations with 100 Squadron. He was killed 25 May 1943 on an operation from RAF Grimsby to Düsseldorf. Collection consists of a diary, a memorial book, an official report on what was his final operation, photographs of his crew, his family and the squadron as well as official correspondence from Air Ministry and British Red Cross, letters of condolence and a large number of letters from Ian Wynn to his wife Kathleen. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Patrick Anthony Wynn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Ian Archer Wynn is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/126116/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wynn, IA
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ian Archer Wynn memorial book
Description
An account of the resource
An album book containing: 1. Photographs of Ian Wynn, his family and his first crew captain. 2. A history of his first captain. 3. Letter of sympathy and memorial scroll. 4. A diary of events from joining the air force up to first operation fully described in item #11456. 5. Details of his awards. 6. Letters from the padre at RAF Binbrook described at items #11477 and #11478. 7. Details of a operation to Dortmund. 8 Details of his final operation to Dusseldorf on 25 May 1943 described at item #11483. 9. Career details of German night fighter pilot Manfred Meuer (he shot down Ian Wynn's aircraft). 10. Details of ceremony at Herkenbosch (Limburg, Netherlands) cemetery in 2013. 11. Photographs of Bomber Command memorial, London and the grave of Ian Wynn. 12, Wynn family tree. 13. Acknowledgements. 13. Photographs of Lancaster
This item has been redacted in order to protect the privacy of the lender.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Wynn
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2004-04
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Album with 53 pages
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Map
Photograph
Text. Correspondence
Text. Memoir
Text. Diary
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BWynnDWynnIAv1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Düsseldorf
Netherlands
Netherlands--Nijmegen
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-25
2013-05-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
100 Squadron
aircrew
final resting place
flight engineer
George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952)
killed in action
Lancaster
memorial
RAF Binbrook
RAF Grimsby
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1018/11478/EAndersonPWynnK430602.2.jpg
9375d9ed147393fb275e34440e8b194f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wynn, Ian Archer
I A Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
146 Items. Collection concerns Pilot Officer Ian Archer Wynn (1908 - 1943, 146838 Royal Air Force). After training as ground crew he remustered as a flight engineer and flew operations with 100 Squadron. He was killed 25 May 1943 on an operation from RAF Grimsby to Düsseldorf. Collection consists of a diary, a memorial book, an official report on what was his final operation, photographs of his crew, his family and the squadron as well as official correspondence from Air Ministry and British Red Cross, letters of condolence and a large number of letters from Ian Wynn to his wife Kathleen. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Patrick Anthony Wynn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Ian Archer Wynn is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/126116/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wynn, IA
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
R.A.F. Station
Binbrook
Lincoln.
June 2 [underlined] nd [/underlined] 1943.
My dear Mrs Wynn,
Thank you for your letter and God will bless you for your bravery.
In answer to your question I have to state that F/O Stammers – now A/S/Ldr was posted away a few weeks ago.
Your husbands [sic] colleagues were -
A/S/L Turgel – Son of Cpt R. Turgel
“Bay Trees”
Vicarage Park
Guildford
[underlined]Surrey[\underlined].
P/O Petts – Son of Mrs C. M. Petts
2507. 16A Street
S.W. Calgary. Alberta.
P/O Russell – Son of Mrs Russell
75 Avondale Rd
Southport. Lancs.
P/O Harvey – Husband of Mrs K Harvey
Netherne Hospital
Coulston [Coulsdon]
Surrey.
Sgt Hudson – Husband to Mrs Hudson
33. Dudley St
[underlined]Grimsby[\underlined]
Again accept my Prayers for you all
Percy Anderson
[underlined]Padre[\underlined].
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from padre at RAF Binbrook to Mrs K Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
Thanks her for her letter and includes details of other member of her husbands crew.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
P Anderson
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-06-02
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EAndersonPWynnK430602
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Surrey
England--Lancashire
England--Southport
England--Coulsdon
England--Grimsby
Canada
Alberta--Calgary
England--Guildford
Alberta
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-06-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
missing in action
RAF Binbrook
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1018/11477/EAndersonPWynnK430529.1.jpg
87b37a02a345f16c3ad9ddb8470d07f2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wynn, Ian Archer
I A Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
146 Items. Collection concerns Pilot Officer Ian Archer Wynn (1908 - 1943, 146838 Royal Air Force). After training as ground crew he remustered as a flight engineer and flew operations with 100 Squadron. He was killed 25 May 1943 on an operation from RAF Grimsby to Düsseldorf. Collection consists of a diary, a memorial book, an official report on what was his final operation, photographs of his crew, his family and the squadron as well as official correspondence from Air Ministry and British Red Cross, letters of condolence and a large number of letters from Ian Wynn to his wife Kathleen. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Patrick Anthony Wynn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Ian Archer Wynn is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/126116/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-13
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Wynn, IA
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
R.A.F. Station
Binbrook
Lincoln.
29[underlined] th [/underlined] May 1943.
My dear Mrs Wynn,
I am writing to express with you my very deep sympathy at this time. The news that your dear husband is reported missing from Operations will have dealt you a grievous blow. I want to assure you of my Prayers and of the kindly thought [sic] and remembrance of the whole Squadron.
We pray that you may be sustained as you wait and hope for good [deleted] g [/deleted] news which, we trust, may reach you. But above all else, and whatever may be, we must try and look to God and rest ourselves in His Devine [sic] Will. We must keep our faith strong in a better life and a better world.
I do commend you to God’s good and holy care and pray that His Spirit may comfort you in your present sore trial. Should there be anything that I can do to help you please let me know
Yours Very Sincerely
Percy Anderson
[underlined] C/E Padre for Binbrook + Grimsby [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter from Padre RAF Binbrook to Mrs K Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
Letter of sympathy that her husband is reported missing from operations.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-05-29
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One page handwritten document
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EAndersonPWynnK430529
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-05-29
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
P Anderson
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
faith
missing in action
RAF Binbrook
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1018/11456/DWynn146838.2.pdf
2096867fc9046c0386f9a590e50be571
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wynn, Ian Archer
I A Wynn
Description
An account of the resource
146 Items. Collection concerns Pilot Officer Ian Archer Wynn (1908 - 1943, 146838 Royal Air Force). After training as ground crew he remustered as a flight engineer and flew operations with 100 Squadron. He was killed 25 May 1943 on an operation from RAF Grimsby to Düsseldorf. Collection consists of a diary, a memorial book, an official report on what was his final operation, photographs of his crew, his family and the squadron as well as official correspondence from Air Ministry and British Red Cross, letters of condolence and a large number of letters from Ian Wynn to his wife Kathleen. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Patrick Anthony Wynn and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. <br /><br />Additional information on Ian Archer Wynn is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/126116/">IBCC Losses Database.</a>
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Wynn, IA
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Cover of diary headed DAY BOOK
[page break]
Inside cover [deleted]Postage & travelling Exs. Etc [/deleted]
[underlined] Diary [/underlined]
[page break]
[blank page]
[page break]
1
Service Log.
OCT 3 1940 Went to Padgate and was accepted into the RAFVR as from the 6th Oct 1940 as U/T Observer. Called to the colours on 22nd MARCH 41. Reported to Babbacombe, Devon April 5th . Posted to 7. J.T.W. Newquay Cornwall Taken off the course in May & Posted to 6 s of T T Hednes final as a U/T FME. 29/5/41 Passed course in Oct 1941 A C 1 & Returned to 6 s s of TT as a U/T Fitter.
Passed AC1 on 22/12/41. Posted to Kenly on 6/1/42 became acquainted with “Bluey” Truscott, “Paddy” [undecipherable word] & Group Capt Beamish.
Posted to 3 C O T U Cranwell 25/3/42. (Flew to Shetlands August 1942) LAC at Cranwell July 1942. Posted to ST ATHANS (4 s of TT) on F.E. course on 14/10/42.
[page break]
2
Commenced F E Course on “Lancasters” 16th October 1942
Passed School Exam (Written Paper) 76% A. class pass 6th November 1942
Passed Trade Test Board 12/11/42. Sgt. 64.26%
Posted to 166 continued at Skellingthorpe didn’t arrive there landed at Swinderby midnight. Transferred to Waddington 17/11/42. Introduced W/C Nettleton VC who [indecipherable words] This was cancelled & we were posted to 12 Squadron at Binbrook who were in the process of converting to Lancs. from Whimpeys [sic]. However the squadron was stationed at Wickerby where we eventually arrived about 10 pm on the 18th. Thoroughly browned off.
19/11/42 This camp is in process of construction & is not organised. Mess. Hopeless.
20/11/42 Went to Binbrook & drew flying clothing. The Raf gets interesting at last.
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3
21/11/42 Crewed up. Am in [indecipherable word] Flight Commanders Crew due for first flight 1300 hrs.
Went on C&L with Skipper, who was very pleased at the way the kite handled & he coped well. [underlined] 2.55 mins – 1430 to 17.25 hrs [/underlined].
Still have to meet rest of the crew
Climbed above the clouds to 9,000 ft & had the most wonderful view possible of a huge sea of clouds with high banks arising to the west like snow & mountains. There were most wonderful strands of pink mauve & rainbow effects.
22/11/42 Flying again today with F/O Stevens & Sgt Aubert [underlined] 2 hrs. C&L [/underlined] P/O Stevens very steady pilot. Sgt Aubert knows his way around. (Check up times of flying).
23/11/42 Flying again. Acted as No.2 to F/O Stevens 1 1/2 hrs. [underlined] 1130 to 1300 hrs. [/underlined]. Low haze vis poor had difficulty in finding runway, which gave no chance of doing gun shoot drill. Coped OK I think?
[page break]
4
23/11/42 Continued
On leave. Caught 5 o’clock from Midland Stn Lincoln (B flight should start night flying tonight if the mist clears.)
The rest of the crew have not woken up yet. Will see them after leave. Apparently all have bags of hrs in.
Called home from Hartford around 12.30 am. Kathleen upset about Vera who died on Sat.
25/11/42 Attended Vera’s funeral.
29/11/42 Went to [indecipherable word] Church with Bert & Mr Turner.
30/11/42 Leave over Returned to Wickerby the other Crew in the billet just gone on leave
1st Dec Some of my crew are not up yet so acted Engineer to Sgt HUDSON of 5 flight [underlined] 1 hr 40 mins [/underlined] Felt groggy went to bed at 9 pm. Sweated out the cold.
2/12/42 [indecipherable word] morning. Saw F/O Stevens who informs us that S/L [indecipherable name] is tacking over the crew
[page break]
5
am not enthusiastic yet. Went to plane in the afternoon but the tail [indecipherable word] Was U/S so should not fly.
3/12/42 Thursday.
Duff weather no flying attended a lecture in the morning on George. In the afternoon saw a “Ditching Film” quite good & instructive.
In the evening we had a House Warming dance in the mess. It was so cold that everyone was stuck in the bar until quite late & most people were tight. Bags of excellent refreshments. Had quite a good time. Short slept with a dame all night. [underlined] Shaky do!! next bed. [/underlined]
4/12/42 FRIDAY
Got up late & in not to [sic] bad condition. Went to Binbrook on 1215 bus to draw pay & [indecipherable word] a shirt returned 1815 & spent night in billet.
[page break]
6
SATURDAY 5th DECEMBER 1942
Heavy rain [indecipherable words] we (Sq/L & P/O) got in 3 hrs. Circuits & Bumps. What a good show. Hobbled down too late to obtain a ticket on the transport to Lincoln. Walked into Wragby with Morton visited the two pubs which are quite good “Locals” but was astounded at the lack of Females who were conspicuous by their complete absence which is indeed a rarity even in small villages these days. In the Adam & Eve we collected some “Erks” & proceeded to Langworth via bus to a [indecipherable word] it was dead ropey – Rachs [indecipherable word] 4 school girls and to [sic] old age pensioners (approx). Did not enjoy the walk back a bit, which was about 4 miles or more.
Sunday 6/12/42
[indecipherable words] Sgt did not fly. Went up on an A/C test with P/O Graham
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7
who dive bombed the mess & drome in general. He can certainly handle a plane. Went to Lincoln at night saw F/O Stammers & Huver. Found out we could obtain nice sandwiches at the Oxford (a temperance hotel).
7-12-42 Still no flying getting browned off with the Sq/L is [indecipherable word] or he is stalling for some reason. A.V.M. came in the afternoon & told us that he was pleased with our progress etc. etc. [indecipherable words]
8-12-42 Flew today with Sq/L. (45 mins 11.50 – 1235.) in our own plane J for Johnny. A new plane & the engines seem O.K. Would have been airborne longer but the weather came u/s & several minor defects were found out. Mainly intercom up though a faulty plug. Skipper made a very ropey. Spent the afternoon
[page break]
8
around the plane, with the mechs and oiled the flap lever etc.
Received parcel of laundry today together with an onion which shall be eaten with enjoyment later. Spending [underlined] the night [/underlined] in the billet.
Wednesday 9-12-42
Received a letter from Rex who tells me that A Griffin the lawyer has died and it will cause even further delay in settling up dads estate. Went out to the sea just of [sic] Mablethorpe & did a little Air to Sea firing that is the Rear Gunner & Front Gunners did. Came back & Sq/L made two ropey landings. The second was terrible I thought we had had it bounced at least 25 ft first [indecipherable word] numerous times shot about it. He will never live it down on this squadron.
Went to Lincoln in the evening
[page break]
9
saw Stammers & Co on the bus all were merry & bright.
10-12-42
Woke up heavy this morning & dopey all day. Flew out to sea with Sgt Withall on an NFT in [underlined Johnny [/underlined]. Heard great news when we returned. Bloomfield is posted as Wing Co to another squadron Stammers is going to try to get us back for his crew. I hope he does because they are a good crowd & he is a damn good pilot & a fine chap. I was down for night flying tonight but the flying was cancelled owing to weather conditions. I don’t mind really as I don’t feel too lively. Spent evening in the billet won 1/- at darts & lost 5/10 at pontoon not my lucky night at cards though I played cautiously.
[page break]
10
11th Dec 1942 Friday
Very dull sort of day. One bright spot was a practice bombing [indecipherable word] trip in K with Stammers & crew F/O Fatten wash his usual self ([indecipherable word] flying all over the place). A nice spot of Fighter Affiliation with three Bostons who could not get inside us at all. Stood by till 2230 hrs for night flying which was then cancelled Weather U/S
12-12-42. Duff weather all flying cancelled had very interesting talk by a F/L Pepkin who bailed out of a Halifax over Duisburg & got away with it took him about 7 weeks most interesting. Received a very disturbing letter from Kathleen. The Civil Liability people have stopped 32/6 a week grant which actually makes our combined income 4s a day more than when I was an L.A.C. & comparatively in a safe job. I take a very poor view of all this. It does not say much
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11
for our Country’s appreciation of our job when a slim fool like me jeopardizes the future of his family for a net gain of 4s a day while thinking what the hell will they do if I go for a burton?
I must go into all this immediately because if nothing can be done about it my enthusiasm [underlined] is ZERO!!! [/underlined]
Incidentally I shall be worse off having more expenses to pay out etc.
Went to see the Padre in the evening with Ryan to the loss of income. He seems to think that I have a chance of getting my allowance made up some anyway. Have to let him have particulars of expenses & wife’s allowances I am in a state of complete browned offness. I will write to Kathleen.
Sunday 13-12-42
Actually got airborne on X country to day Went up as far as Stranraer came back over Bassenthwaite & Skiddaw. Saw them through clouds. Listened to BBC 1 o’clock news while
[page break]
12
over Skiddaw.
Should have gone on a night X country but G was u/s so after being airborne for 30 mins abandoned trip did a dual [indecipherable word] as engineer with Sgt Dunwick who made a superb landing (his first shot). Packed up owing to U/S weather. The flare paths looked like an arterial road lit up in peace time.
MONDAY 14-12-42.
Did a short night X country to Penrith. It was marvellous above the clouds in the moon light. I find I am quite duff at Morse I must get hold of a buzzer & practice some. F/O Stammers invited F/Sgt Hule [indecipherable word] to the officers mess afterwards where we enjoyably drank many beers, and [indecipherable word] in a spot of jocular line shooting.
[page break]
13
TUESDAY 15-12-42
Went as passenger in a “Ferry Wellington” to Doncaster & Helsham to pick up a crew & some spares for K. Kitty (gets oil seal)
In the afternoon went Lincoln shopping and bought Kath a bag which I dont like now I have it. Also went to The Astoria which was a lousy dance place shall not go again. Missed the bus to camp & could not get accommodation so slept in a parked bus bitterly cold & not comfortable. Then was a warning at about 3 AM. Ignored it & apparently so did everyone else. After the all clear I was disturbed by a friendly Bobby who let me remain. Was I glad when the YMCA opened at 5.30 AM.
Wed 16-12-42
Short local trip 1 1/2 hrs in
[page break]
14
daytime & 3 hrs 35 mins night & photo trip at 4000 ft quite good bags of other A/C flying.
Thursday 17/12/42.
Nothing doing of interest.
18/12/42.
Weather duff no flying today. Wing Co’ gave a bit of a jaw at midday. He wants the squadron operational [undecipherable word] after Xmas. I dont think there will be many of us operational that soon unless we get better weather. Went to Lincoln in the afternoon where I me “Olga Coe” who is now 21 & an M.T. driver in the waffs at Waddington. When I last saw her she had just left school & was a gawky kid who wanted to take [indecipherable word] out in the pram. Came home on the 10.45 bus.
[page break
15
19-12-42 SATURDAY
Weather still duff did dingy drill in the morning & collected an interesting “Escape aid” from the intelligence library
Stayed in camp all day
broke & browned off.
SUNDAY 20-12-42
This morning saw a demonstration of dingy inflation in a plane. Later went with “Bluey” Graham as Engineer in X (LANC) to LEVENHALL but vis there was bad did not land. Took some “Erks” with us. One was about to use the Elson when we went into a dive. Others landed in a heap on the cabin floor.
Air firing & bombing in the afternoon. Kay dive bombed the last bomb with great success would like to try further bomb by that method wrote six letters tonight. quite a record for me. The Scots boys in the billet have a little kitten which
[page break]
16
has been getting mad at its own reflection in a mirror to our amusement. Early this evening I heard a terrific explosion it sounded like a plane going up with a load of bombs, heard later that it was. Not confirmed though yet.
21st Dec 1942 MONDAY.
Weather not too good but some flying although our crew did not participate. The A O C (AVM Harris?) came to Wickenby & gave us a little [indecipherable words]
Feeling generally browned off but received 25/= PO from the Comfort fund at Norby. Went to the White Hart at Lissington bought a stock of baccy & cigs & spent 24/6. Came back to the mess & had a Sing Song around the Piano with Mortons Crew & Sgt Driver who is an AG. was flying in the second day of the war
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as an LAC/AG. He was awarded the second DFM of this war & has two lots of Dinghy hours in. Retired quite merry.
22 DEC TUESDAY
Fine day though the met people predict all sorts of muck. Worked like Joe Soap on K all morning then went on long X country in G. The tail trimmers went U/S but we carried on flew 1150 miles at 15000 ft with marvellous visibility. In some cases up to 200 miles completed the trip (dispersed to dispersal) 6 hrs 35 mins. Should prove an interesting trip for consumption data etc.
23-12-42 WEDNESDAY
Moderate sort of day did a spot of A to S firing & bombing in the morning & a night bombing practice trip. We were annoyed at having
[page break]
18
to do the Bombing trip but we were down again at 8 PM. Went to the Sgts. Dance in the mess had a nice boozy time but did not think that it was as good as the last.
24th Dec 1942
Ferryed [sic] a Lancaster to LYNDHOLM with Bluey Graham. The mess there was wizard & met Ratcliffe & Hind who have only just started their conversion course. Returned in a Wimpy with F/LT Stammers. Came back to the mess & most of the boys have gone to lunch. The billet was deserted & there was no mail for me. Not a bit festive yet. Later went to Wragby & had a booze in the local with crowds of Erks. Not too bad but I would rather have been at home. Went in the kitchen & helped to prepare Xmas dinner until 5 A M
[page break]
19
25th DECEMBER 1942
Quite a good feed in camp today. Went to Lincoln in the evening & had a quiet night. Stayed all night.
26th Dec.
Quite foggy no flying went to Lincoln by train had a quiet evening at the flicks came back by taxi.
27th
Still a duff day & no flying. Went to Wragby in the evening & had a quiet night again.
28th
Bags of excitement everything ready for a big show. Everyone excited 16 crews briefed. (MUN) found the briefing quite interesting – was cancelled at the last moment & everyone annoyed. It is perhaps as well that it was so or many of us would [underlined] not [/underlined] have returned.
29th
Weather still duff. Some gardening trips proposed but eventually cancelled. [underlined] Snow fell [/underlined] in the evening.
[page break]
20
30th DECEMBER 1942
Snow still lying around did a low level X country trip over [indecipherable word] & district lasting about 2 hrs. It was quite nice to see the country covered in snow from a plane. Went to Lincoln again in the evening went to the flicks & saw a well acted but sloppy picture. Stayed the night at the Y.M.C.A. again.
31st Dec THURSDAY
Quite a nice morning with the snow still about. Stood down from Ops. Acted Engineer for Sgt Morphett in an NFT.
Sgt Aubert & Sgt Marshall came back from Skegness doing some [underlined] Real [/underlined] low level stuff.
Spent the evening in billet quietly. In bed before midnight.
[page break]
21
1943
JANUARY 1st FRIDAY.
Nothing doing again today.
Stood down again.
2nd
A few letters today & 10/= from Rex for my birthday.
Still nothing doing.
3rd Jan Sunday.
My 35th birthday & all’s well. Celebrated it by completing my first Op. which was rather boring in as much as it was quiet. Only 2 shots of light flack near us from a vessel at sea. (Mining of La Rochelle).
The number of lights visible over France was amazing & La Rochelle seemed to have very little black out at all. Quite a successful trip.
4-1-43.
Tonight we started off on a H L bombing attack over Essen
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4-1-43
but apparently we were not getting sufficient supply of oxygen & all behaved peculiarly & did not reach the target so we dropped the bomb 20 mins away from T & returned. All made a foolish calculation thought we would not have enough juice to do the full trip bad show.
5th
Snow fall & all stood down.
6th Proceeded on leave at noon.
14/1/43
Back off leave & learn with regret that 3 of our crews are missing in the last week. F/Sgt Baker. Sgt Marshall & Sgt [indecipherable name] did a ferry trip to Hemswell & A/C test.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ian Archer Wynn diary
Description
An account of the resource
Diary commences on joining Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 3 October 1940 and training at Babbacombe, Newquay and passing out as an aircraft fitter. Posting to RAF Kenley 6 January 1942 and association with fighter pilots Bluey Truscott, Paddy Finucane and Geoup Captain Beamish. Postings to RAF St Athan 14 October 1942 and then to fitter engines course on Lancaster. Posting to 12 Squadron at RAF Binbrook and then aircrew training at RAF Wickenby in November 1942. Describes life and training for November and December 1942 including a visit from AOC AVM Harris on 21 December 1942 . Writes about first operation to La Rochelle on 3 January 1943. Last entry 31 January 1943.
Creator
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Ian Wynn
Format
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Cover and 26 page handwritten document
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Diary
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DWynn146838
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Devon
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Torquay
England--Newquay
England--Caterham and Warlingham
Wales--St. Athan
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
France
France--La Rochelle
England--Surrey
England--Wragby (Lincolnshire)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-10-03
1942-01-06
1942-10-14
1942-11
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
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Jan Waller
12 Squadron
aircrew
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
Lancaster
mine laying
RAF Binbrook
RAF Kenley
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
RAF Swinderby
RAF Waddington
RAF Wickenby
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1051/11429/ANorwoodG160201.1.mp3
af850e59b7c9af6724ffc5903a78c5f1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Norwood, Gerard
Gerard Thomas Norwood
G T Norwood
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Gerard Norwwod (1604811 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 460 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Norwood, G
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GN: Hughie Edwards, VC.
NM: Ok. Carry on.
GN: And this is one of the records I’ve worked out because of, well we’ll come to it when we, when we get to this bit because this is I have to tell you not all about it because it’s a bit deceiving.
NM: Ok. Let me just make a start. Can I just make —
GN: Deceiving because —
NM: Can I just make a start Mr Norwood and then we’ll —
GN: I’ve got quite a few photographs but —
NM: Yeah.
GN: This one is one that makes me —
NM: Gerald Norwood interview.
GN: Terrible of this country for their attitude of veterans of Bomber Command. But I’ve been to Australia a couple of times. The last time we went to Australia we had dinner at the French Embassy in Canberra and the Ambassador said, ‘Is there anyone here of you that flew on D-Day?’ I said, ‘Yes. There was quite, one or two of us.’ And he said, ‘Well, give me your names.’ He said, ‘We cannot issue you a medal,’ he said, ‘But we’ll see what we can do.’ But since they’ve done this they have given all Australian, but you have to be Australian to get it but they sent to the English people that weren’t born in Australia or anything a diploma to say you operated on D-Day for France and, but, but this country gave us nothing. You know. This is only because I went to Canberra you see. If we hadn’t gone to Canberra we wouldn’t even have known about that. But anyway let’s get on. Let’s sort this out for you.
NM: That’s interesting.
GN: Because —
NM: Can I, can I just make an introduction?
GN: Yeah.
NM: And then what I’d like to do is ask you a few general questions.
GN: Yeah. Yeah. Certainly.
NM: Then the idea is they don’t want to hear me talk. They want to hear you talk.
GN: I see. Yes.
NM: So I shall, I shall keep quiet. I might make a few notes.
GN: Yeah.
NM: And then there might one or two questions as we go through it.
GN: Right.
NM: But the idea is to listen to you tell your story. Ok. So, the date is February the 1st. I’m with Gerard Norwood.
GN: That’s right.
NM: At his Lancaster Lodge appropriately, in Well Cottage, Ivinghoe Aston in Leighton Buzzard.
GN: That’s right. Yeah.
NM: In Bedfordshire.
GN: Yeah.
NM: And so can I ask you to tell me a little bit about your background? Your childhood, your growing up before you joined the Air Force.
GN: Yeah. Now, well, this is why I’ve got this actually because I was born in Berkhamsted but we lived in Bricket Wood and unfortunately when I was two years old my father died. I didn’t even know my father really because I was too young to remember him. And my mother struggled along but eventually she got married again and when we moved we moved into Watford. But unfortunately, my elder brother and myself we couldn’t get on with our step-father and we left home and went in to lodgings when we were fifteen years of age. And when the war broke out and I was with my brother and we were trainees at an engineering factory as a centre lathe turner. And it was only after working for about from 1939 to 1942 in the factory working twelve hour nights seven nights a week when all my friends had been called up or volunteered for service I thought to myself, ‘What am I doing just turning wheels and things? Doing nothing really for the war effort.’ It was absolutely nothing. So I thought well I’ll volunteer. So I went to, from one Friday morning, I came off of work and went up to Deansbrook Road, Edgeware Drill Hall to volunteer. Well, when I tried to volunteer the Army man said, ‘Show me your registration card.’ So I showed him. He said, ‘No. Sorry. You’re a Reserved Occupation. You can’t.’ I tried the Navy and the same thing happened. I went eventually to the Air Force because pre-war I had, when I was about twelve to fourteen years old I did, when we first moved to Watford I did something and I joined an Association which at that time was made by this man and they lived in bungalows just off of Watford bypass and he started the ATC. But it wasn’t called the ATC. It was called the Air Defence Cadet Corps and we marched in the Lord, last Lord Mayor’s Show before the war and if you check you’ll find not only all the donations of the people that made it but a list of Cadets and you’ll find my name is down there somewhere at the bottom. So I thought to myself well let me try the Air Force. So I tried the Air Force and he said, ‘Well —’ he said, ‘You can’t.’ He said, ‘The only thing you can volunteer for is air crew. If you want to fly,’ he said, ‘I can, I can put you down.’ So I did do. I said, ‘Well, you can do that.’ And about three weeks later I got a letter from the Air Force to report to Oxford University to sit an examination and a medical. And I went to Oxford and then after going through all the different phases there I was put forward to the selection board and the air vice marshal there said, ‘We are very surprised that you, with the education you had because you only had a normal school education for two years from twelve to fourteen —’ When we moved to Watford because I went to, because at Bricket Wood there was no school and you couldn’t, there was no transport or nothing. No buses to take you. You had to walk. And the only schooling we had was at the top of Mount Pleasant Lane, Bricket Wood you turned right was Munden and at that time it was Sir Holland-Hibbert but he was Lord Knutsford afterwards when his mother died and he had his own private school for his worker’s children. And all the local children had to go to that school because it was the only one there. And the only teachers we had were two women but they, they were, they were absolutely brilliant because they were really strict but they taught you in such a manner that you couldn’t forget what they told you because the things like, well say the rivers of Scotland. Tweed, Forth, Tay, Dee, Don, Spey and Clyde. I mean the way they taught you you never forgot and that’s what he said, ‘We were very surprised because you passed everything except mathematics and if you are willing to go to night school for three nights a week before you go to work for six weeks on mathematics we will swear you in today and give you the King’s Shilling.’ Which I did and well, after about three or four months I was called up and went to St Johns Wood and did the square bashing and so forth. Then we were transferred and it was, by this time it was about November ’42. They transferred us to Ludlow in Shropshire under canvas and it was pouring with rain. It was absolutely mud and every morning they used to call you out and say, ‘Right. We want twelve of you. The first twelve here will go to this ITW.’ And I missed out on two or three and eventually I got one and I went to Number 7 ITW at Newquay. But unfortunately, I’d been at Newquay I suppose about six or seven weeks and I was struck with rheumatic fever and I had to be taken to sick quarters and of course I lost about three weeks training. And when the exam came I failed the exam because I had no, no possibility of catching up with the others and I was sent then to Blackpool, the Suspended Air Section at Blackpool awaiting discharge to go back to my job. I was there probably two or three weeks and I got called up to the office and the officer said, ‘Are you sure you want to go back to Civvy Street?’ I said, ‘Well, there’s nothing I can do.’ He said, ‘There is.’ He said, ‘If you’re willing, and you don’t want to go back to Civvy Street you can re-muster today and I’ll guarantee that you’ll be a sergeant in six weeks to seven weeks.’ So I said, ‘Well, I’ll do that. There’s no point in me going back.’ I said, ‘I’ll do that.’ And which he did and I was, from there I was then sent to Pwllheli, in North Wales. Llanbedrog was the village and there was a small airfield there and surprisingly enough they started you know with a round circular thing on the ground for air firing and so forth and then you had to go up in a Blenheim. You turned because they packed three or four of you but each one had different coloured bullets, well, and some Lysander was towing, towing a drogue so you had to fire at a drogue. And surprisingly enough for me one of the pilots, they were nearly all Polish but one pilot stood out and it was a friend of mine. He’d just come back from Rhodesia, and he’d got his wings and he was flying a Lysander. So he said, ‘What number are you going?’ I said, ‘Number three.’ He said, ‘Right.’ So when number three came up the drogue came sliding nearer and nearer with the Lysander. Of course [laughs] I got more shots at it than anybody else. Fortunately, of course, I passed and after six weeks there I was passed out. I was a sergeant gunner and from there I was trained. I went to Driffield to finish off and before I went to Conversion Unit and so forth to pick up a crew and I’ve got a photograph of myself somewhere when I first went and then I went from there to, I think it was Faldingworth. I think it was. No. It wasn’t Faldingworth. It was [pause] Seighford. Gunnery Flight at Seighford and picked up a crew. And then I got struck down with rheumatic again and I went in to hospital and when I came out I hadn’t got a crew because unfortunately the pilot, we were all in one room and you made up your own crews. The crew I’d picked, we’d picked, I picked and made up had crashed on take-off and were all killed. So they said to me, ‘Do you want to go back and pick a crew up? Or we can transfer you to ITW again because we have a crew there but their conversion from Wellingtons on to Lancasters and they’ve only got one gunner. They want a rear gunner. They’ve only got a mid-upper.’ So I said, ‘Yes, I’ll do that. So that’s how I got transferred then to pick up Flight Sergeant Teece and his Australian crew and that’s how I joined 460 Squadron. Of course, I stayed on 460 after that. But on the way back from Magdeburg one of the ops we did we we were coming around on the outer circle and we called up, ‘Lancaster M on circuit.’ And they said, ‘All aircraft down five hundred feet and —’ Your turn to land. And the skipper called up and they said, ‘Prepare to land.’ And he was on the outer circle coming around for the funnel and the four engines stopped and we were probably about a thousand feet up or something. They said, ‘No way of baling out or anything. Much too low.’ And he said, ‘Hang on chaps. We’re going in.’ And I just hung on and we hit the ground and he was a very good skipper. He must have pulled the stick back just before we hit the ground tail first and the tail broke off by the rear spar and the turret turned over, banged me in the chest. Unfortunately it hit me right where the parachute harness buckle is in the middle and it knocked me straight through the turret doors and I woke up looking at the sky. So [laughs] and stars. So I was very fortunate there but unfortunately one or two of the crew were injured but Teece said, ‘I’ll do anything but I will not take the responsibility of a crew.’ He said, ‘I’ll fly anything but it’s got to be solo because,’ he said, ‘I don’t want the responsibility of their lives.’ So the crew got split up but the wireless op and myself they said, ‘You can stay on the squadron as spares.’ So, I said, ‘Well, we might as well.’ Ron said, ‘Yeah. Ok. I’ll stay on as well.’ Which he did. Buddy Mansfield. But about four ops later he was with a crew and we heard the crew calling up and the man panicked. The skipper panicked. Well of course panic. If anybody panicked that was it. It was fatal. You had to remain calm and we heard him calling him up, ‘I cannot bring my port wing up,’ and he was going around in circles and crashed. But little did I know that it was the aircraft that Ronnie was in. So of course, Ron, old Ron got killed. When I came back the wireless op officer he sent a special car out to pick me up instead of the lorry or the van. So I said to the WAAF driver, ‘What’s the problem?’ She said, ‘Oh, Dusty Miller —' the signals officer, ‘He’ll tell you when he sees you.’ So I said, ‘Oh, fair enough.’ So when I got to interrogation Dusty Miller was there and he said, ‘I cannot describe how I feel.’ I said, ‘Well, you know I’ve taken Ron to my home two or three times.’ He was the only one I really palled up with because you didn’t make pals because you were all the same and there was, you were all comrades but you were all doing the same job. But you didn’t make fast friends because you’d never know whether they were, whether they were coming back or not so you didn’t really get really involved with them. Ron was the only one I really took to. But anyway, Dusty said, ‘Well — ’ he said, ‘It was an easy op wasn’t it?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ Because it was after D-Day and it was only a field battery or something. He said, ‘I have to get my flying hours in to keep my flying pay.’ You had to give so many hours to keep your flying pay even if you were in charge of a section. So I said, ‘I know you had to keep your flight time.’ He said, ‘Well I tried to talk Ronnie into standing down and let me take his place so I could get my flying in.’ And he said Ron said, ‘No. I’m going.’ He said, if he’d have changed,’ he said, ‘I wouldn’t be here.’ It was just fate you know. But anyway, after that of course I was with all different crews. I never made really good friends. I made just normal comrades and I flew then with quite a number of crews on their first op and one of the crews, that’s one that I’ve got here. When we, oh that’s one. One of the, this was the one I think. Yes. And I used to, oh yeah, this is it. I used to say to the skippers when they went out there you know when you were with the spare gunner or a spare wireless op but you always had to go with sprog crews on their first op [laughs] Always, always on their first operation and I used to say well, to the skipper, well, if you don’t mind me saying so the Australians were very good because no matter what their rank was and even if they were squadron leaders they would listen to you and do what you said. And I used to say, ‘The first thing you do no one talks unless they’ve got to because no one shouts or anything because you start panicking because if you panic that’s it. You’ve had it.’ So, I used to say to the skipper, ‘What you do, you should, you don’t need to call up your flight engineer because he’s sitting next to you. You don’t need to call up the bomb aimer because he’s lying down beside but call up the rest of your crew in turn about every half an hour to make sure they’re all awake.’ Because some of them were fatal. When the doctors came out before you took off, while you were waiting he used to feed you with wakey wakey pills to keep you awake and they used to, a lot of them used to take one. As soon as he was out spit them out and that was fatal if you didn’t take your wakey wakey pills because you could go to sleep and I said, ‘Make sure that all your crew are awake because it’s fatal if one of them’s not.’ And it was this particular crew that I said to [laughs] said to them, so they said, ‘Oh ok.’ They did but we were on the way to Frankfurt and all of a sudden the mid-upper started firing and I swang around the turret to have a look where he was firing and I said, I called up, I said, ‘Stop firing. It’s another Lancaster.’ It was another Lanc but because, you know I suppose he was on his first op but when we got back in to briefing after they were briefed we used to go and get your rum ration drink and a coffee and newspaper people were there. [laughs] And that was the newspaper people took photographs of those. So that was Flight Sergeant Daley’s crew and I did a couple of ops with them. And a little while after that I flew with Dan Cullen and his crew and I flew with Bourke and his crew then. One of the crews on the squadron that had done about fourteen ops their rear gunner was killed so they said to me, ‘Would you? Did you want to take his place?’ So I said, ‘Yeah. I might as well take his place.’ I said, ‘Of course. No, no problem.’ And that was Pilot Officer Mullins, that was his crew and I did sixteen ops with him to finish the tour. So, he, Ron Mullins, he married a girl from Grimsby and she’s written to me from Australia a couple of times and sent me different photographs but he died about five years ago. Ron. But no they, they, they were marvellous blokes. As I say I’ve been back to Australia twice now. Two I think. The last time we went to Australia was because we had one aircraft on the squadron which was always a spare aircraft because they used to load up one aircraft that had no crew with bombs and petrol load in case we got a mag drop or something somebody we used to transfer them to the spare aircraft and G-George was always the spare. And sure enough everybody [laughs] every, somebody had a fault because G-George was always shot up and would always come back. It did ninety two ops that aircraft. There wasn’t much of it left of the original aircraft of course but everybody flew with him. But when the war finished they took it to pieces. They shipped it to Australia and it was refurbished and rebuilt and it was presented to the Canberra War Museum and that’s when I went and that’s why, how I got there. I went to Canberra when they put G-George up. So then as I say since then I’ve got into different things like that and I was very surprised at the way that the Australian people and the government of Australia and New Zealand have treated their veterans and Bomber Command and this country has tried to hide the fifty five and a half thousand young men who were all volunteers that got killed, under the carpet. And Bomber Command. And this is why now I’ve done everything I could to help them to make sure that that they’re now not pushed under the carpet because I think, I mean in Australia you’d be surprised. They do everything they can. I mean, even now every month they send me a list of all the Association meetings and their Bomber Command meetings and everything. They really look after their veterans you know and the ones that got killed well you know they put Memorials up and everything and I was surprised when they put, they put the Lincoln up. I was surprised. But even then other people have had to do it. The government hasn’t done it. It’s been done by the public. So this is why I’ve done all these things as I say when Steve said to me will I go to London to sign these photographs I said yeah. And I went to Little Gransden Airport and signed photographs and books there two or three times. And quite a number of the public surprisingly enough that buy the books you know they all come up for a signature and they’re willing to donate so much money for every signature and that raises money to help the Memorial and this is why I do it. But unfortunately, about eighteen months ago I was struck with a, well a tumour I suppose you’d call it and I had an operation which was cut from there to there and I couldn’t walk for about six or seven weeks after. But fortunately, I have this specialist in Watford. He’s absolutely marvellous. Mr Arbuckle. He’s absolutely, he lives in Stanmore actually and he does a lot of work at Bupa Hospital as well but he gives certain days to the National Health Service and he was the one that operated on me because I said to the wife on the first night I felt bad I said to her, ‘Look. You’ll have to get an ambulance or ring up for an ambulance to get me to hospital because I don’t think, you know I think there’s something wrong.’ So they did. They took me in to Watford General and Mr Arbuckle came around and he was there and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We’ve had a scan on you.’ And he said, ‘You’ve got two options. You either give me permission to operate or you die tomorrow because that’s what it is.’ He said, ‘I either operate or you die.’ I said, ‘Well, you operate. That’s it.’ You know. Which he did do but he said, ‘It is a terrible operation.’ He said, ‘Because the colon has to be split and —' he said, ‘It won’t be joined and you will have two holes to take everything from your body.’ He said, ‘If you’re willing to do that and to have two bags.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve got no option,’ I said, ‘Otherwise I die.’ And he said, ‘Well, fair enough. The next morning after the operation and they came around I was in the Intensive Care for about three days and he came in and he said, ‘You’re a very lucky man.’ So I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘I could join your colon. So you don’t have — ’ I’ve still got the scars where they made the holes but there’s no, I’ve got no tubes there fortunately. And he said, ‘You’re a, you’re a lucky old bastard,’ he said and he really is genuine. He’s been on the telly a couple of times actually but he’s an absolutely brilliant surgeon. And now I go every six months. He makes me have a scan and then when he gets the results of the scan he calls me up and I have to go and he says, ‘Now, fortunately the last eighteen months nothing has grown,’ he said, ‘Because I took a tumour and sixteen other pieces from your body.’ And he said, ‘But nothing has, nothing has grown.’ So fortunately, I was lucky there so he said, ‘There’s another life you’ve got.’ So I said, ‘well,’ I said, ‘I’ve survived an aircraft crash.’ That what I did. So I said, ‘I’m really extremely lucky.’ I said, ‘I admit.’ I mean ninety four years of age I mean you know if you live that long you are lucky because I mean you look at people now some friends in the village here he’s a millionaire and two years ago his wife died. She was forty five years of age. Cancer. Terrible. You know. So when you think of these things like that you realise how lucky you are.
NM: Amazing.
GN: I think to myself, ‘Well, I must do all I can because you haven’t got all that long obviously.
NM: Can I —
GN: Yeah.
NM: Can I take —
GN: This is what, this is what —
NM: Can I take —
GN: This is what the Australians sent me about the —
NM: Oh, the —
GN: And this is what they sent me.
NM: Legion of Honour commemorative medal.
GN: Yeah.
NM: This is the French is this? So you’ve got the Legion of Honour.
GN: Yeah.
NM: From France.
GN: Yeah.
NM: For your work on D-Day.
GN: Yeah. And they, they even sent this. me, this is the D-Day operation and we’ll be on there somewhere with Mullins. One of them shown. Oh, this is the one that Steve Darlow sent. Even if I would sign the, go to London to sign the photographs so I said yeah. Will do. Which we did do and one of these people in the village here surprisingly enough he’d done all they can to help Bomber Command and they had this made up for me and that’s, that’s, that’s the photograph of flying back from Frankfurt. And this is when I first went home. That was when I first passed out of Flying School. Air Gunnery School. And they, I don’t know where they got the information. They must have got it from somewhere but [pause] they had this book made up. But they had all this information from records and what I’d done, it’s all done and we were attacked by a fighter and God knows what. Yeah. Very good.
NM: So, can I take —
GN: So if you want any photographs or anything.
NM: Yeah. Can I take you back to your first crew. Well not your first crew because they were killed after your rheumatic fever.
GN: Yeah.
NM: But the crew you then joined. Was it Teece did you say was the pilot?
GN: Yeah.
NM: Tell me, I mean how many operations did you fly with that crew and can you tell me —
GN: With Teece?
NM: How many? Can you tell me any stories? I mean, you obviously had the crash after the Magdeburg raid but —
GN: Yeah. Well —
NM: What was that, what was that crew like to fly with and where did you —
GN: Very good. They were all very good. I can honestly say, I mean people used to say and it’s been mentioned a few times. LMF. Lack of moral fibre if anybody [pause] I can honestly say with all the aircrew that I’d seen and flown with I had never seen one that was really afraid. They seemed to keep it within themselves. They didn’t spread it as it were you know to make everybody panic or anything. I never found anyone that was afraid. They were all just doing their job and that’s it but what, surprisingly enough after the crash from Magdeburg I was on the squadron and I went down to the local pub one night and went into there and I was on my own and having a drink and I got talking to one of the older members of the village. He was an ex-1918 soldier and he was a farm worker but he’d retired. But when the war broke out and the farm labourers were, he went back to work to keep the country moving. And he was very old and he said to me, ‘You’re very, you’re very despondent. You’re very, ‘ he said, ‘You don’t look as if —’ I said, ‘No..’ I said, ‘I’m wondering whether I’m doing the right thing with Bomber Command.’ I said, ‘Dropping bombs, you know.’ I said and I explained to him how I felt but his words to me changed me entirely because he said to me, ‘Son, don’t feel guilty.’ He said, ‘You’re giving to the enemy what the enemy has given to us and to others.’ And I thought well that’s it. So why should I feel guilty about doing this? And that’s how I was after that. I didn’t worry at all. I just, I just got on with what you were doing and that was it. And that was with Teece. That was Berlin, Teece. Yeah. I remember Teece to Stettin. Berlin. Magdeburg was the one we crashed. And then I flew with Flight Sergeant Daley, sprog crew to Stuttgart and then one I did with them to Frankfurt and after that I did with Pilot Officer Bourke to Berlin. Then with Pilot Officer Bourke to [unclear] and I did two ops with him. Then I did [[ Cullen, Dan Cullen, still alive actually Dan is. He’s ninety nine actually. Yeah. He’s still alive Dan is. And after that it was Lancaster Q-Queenie Mullins. And I did sixteen ops with Mullins ‘til he’d finished his tour.
NM: So did you ever fire your guns in anger? See any night fighters?
GN: No, because if you studied fighter affiliation to really, the guns there were put there to, to sort of
think you might think you have something to defend yourself with but if you really studied it they didn’t defend you because they were only 303s. They tried .5s but they burst their mountings because they were too powerful so they could only put 303 Brownings in the turret and the tracer bullets used to go about two hundred yards and then pfft all over the sky. I mean they just hadn’t have the power and the fighters had got cannon shells which were much more powerful and if you studied your fighter affiliation and you kept your eyes open and caught the thing, the fighter you used to call the skipper up, and say, ‘Stand by skipper. There’s a fighter on the port quarter down.’ So you watched him and he was flying like that. Now, if he suddenly dipped his wing, started to turn that was it because he’s got fixed guns. Her can’t move his guns because they’re fixed in the wings like a Spitfire. So the only way he could keep you in his sights was in a curve of pursuit and if you, as soon as he’s turned his wings, started to come in, ‘Dive port, skipper.’ Dive into his turn. He couldn’t get you. But you had to be awake and you had to know how to call up the skipper and if you did that you didn’t need to fire your guns because you wouldn’t have hit him anyway. This one pilot, the only time you fired your guns at him is if he did come close to you, within a few hundred yards and then give him a burst. But otherwise, it was just a waste of time. So if you got that fighter and they did take you up on fighter affiliation at the Gunnery Schools with the Spitfire but you didn’t have the guns. You had a camera. And if you, if he came in to attack and if you learned your fighter affiliation properly they had a job to shoot you down. The only thing that really [bothered] wasn’t the German night fighters it was the anti-aircraft because there’s no doubt about it we came back across the Thames Corridor past London on the way back if you went to France or somewhere and the anti-aircraft were firing at the Germans and the anti-aircraft shells were bursting miles below us but the German anti-aircraft was, we could be twenty five thousand and they still burst above us. They had marvellous defences and when you come to think of it the people don’t like to say it but when you have a thousand bomber raid then you’ve got four waves. That’s two hundred and fifty aircraft in one wave and you weren’t all at the same height. You were all stepped down. Up and down. Well, all those aircraft going through the bombs coming down a lot of our aircraft were lost with our own bombs. They must have been. Impossible to think every aircraft would get through and I used to say to the skipper, ‘When you get to the target area and the bomb aimer is giving you directions, ‘Left. Left. Right.’ I said, ‘All you’ve got to do is put your nose down and lose about two thousand feet and belt like hell as fast as you can through the target area because then you’ve got less seconds for any of those bombs to touch you.’ And that’s what they used to do. They all used to all take notice of it and surprisingly enough every one of those crews finished their tour. They all finished their tour. I couldn’t believe it. Mullins, Cullen, Daley all finished their tour. Some of them were posted to Pathfinder Force and from the squadron but they all finished a tour. They all did their thirty ops. So I thought well there must have been some good I told them you know because they all survived and that was it.
NM: So did you ever have to call evasive action on an operation?
GN: Call any —
NM: Did you have to call evasive operation if you were in —
GN: Oh yeah. Yeah. Many times.
NM: So you saw, you saw fighters.
GN: Yeah. I saw fighters. Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s mentioned in the, in there. One of the, I keep forgetting which one it was now. We were attacked by a fighter and things went [pause] No. If if you as I say if you know your fighter affiliation you could if you wanted any photographs I’ve got loads of these photographs to give anybody.
NM: So you had to call it several times on your —
GN: Pardon?
NM: You had to call evasive action several times on your —
GN: Yeah.
NM: Your, your tour. Tell me a bit more about what you did on D-Day then. The operation on D-Day.
GN: Yeah. Yeah. Because the operation on D-Day that was, that was the one that they sent to on the field battery. It was a field battery and that was the most marvellous sight that you could ever see but you could never describe it to anyone because well it was just really impossible to describe. It’s a pity that you couldn’t have photographed it a bit because we, we bombed at just inside the French coast and it was we’d taken, we took off late. We didn’t take off about five or six. It was late in the evening and we bombed this field battery and we turned around and came back across the Channel. And as we came back across the Channel I looked behind and the Channel, it was breaking dawn, you could just see it was absolutely full of craft going across it. And then you’d look up. There were the gliders going in being towed across there. And the battle ships laying off on the English coast firing across the tops. An absolutely wonderful sight. It’s really impossible to describe it. I mean you would never see it again obviously but it was, it was an absolutely marvellous sight. That was at St John Wood on the twenty fifth anniversary of the RAF. That was, that was St Johns Wood. Yeah.
NM: So, Magdeburg, Frankfurt, Berlin, Stettin, Hanover. Any other particular targets?
GN: Any one —?
NM: Any other particular targets that you recall?
GN: Well, that is the only particular targets that I recall was the one at Magdeburg when we crashed obviously. Frankfurt, when we, we got back and the reporters were there. And the other one was one where we got attacked by fighters. It’s in here somewhere.
[pause]
NM: Did they get close enough so that you could recognise the aircraft?
GN: Oh yeah. Brunswick was the 14th 15th of January 1944.
NM: Were they close enough so that you could recognise the fighter?
GN: Yeah. We were attacked by a twin engine fighter.
NM: A twin engine.
GN: Yeah. Yeah.
NM: That was —
GN: Junkers 88. Twin engine one. That’s at the top here. Yeah, I think [pause] Yeah, I don’t know where they got those records from. They must have gone somewhere. They must have got them from, well surprising enough every, every one that I’ve had to ring up or go to they’ve all done all they could to help. I mean I, I, after the war I suffered with deafness and it was only somebody that said to me, ‘Well, get in touch with the Air Force and see what they can do.’ And I got in touch with the people at Blackpool and I was surprised because the woman said, ‘Oh yes.’ She said, ‘I know exactly. Exactly what you’ve done,’ she said, ‘Because we have all your records. They’re all underground here. We have a mile underground with all the records of what everybody has done and we know what you did.’ So, they said, ‘Well, we’ll send you to Mount Vernon Hospital to give you a check-up here and they did do and they said, ‘Well, you’ll, you know, you’ll be deaf within a few months.’ So I had to have hearing aids but they gave me a pension because they said, ‘Well, it was a deafness of the four Stirling engines noise that lost your hearing because none of the family have suffered with hearing and I got a war pension from it. And then, you know they all seem as if they can’t do enough for you surprisingly enough. The only thing that annoys me is the politicians and really and truthfully even the British Legion because I marched in the annual Cenotaph march two or three times but the British Legion did everything they could to push Bomber Command out. They didn’t want it. Not much had been known because you’ll upset people because you’re Bomber Command. Even the British Legion. And that’s what annoyed me about it because I mean those fifty five thousand young man, I mean they were all average eighteen to twenty two but they were all young. I mean they fought, gave their lives to stop being ruled by a military politicians but no. They, now the politicians want to push them under the carpet. This is what annoyed me with it. Whichever you must think it’s bad and this is why as I say I think it’s wonderful the way they built this Memorial. The people in the, [unclear] the pop group bloke who did a lot towards it.
NM: Robin Gibbs.
GN: Yeah. Robin. Yeah. Marvellous really because people like that they recognised what they’d done and if those fifty five thousand are not forgotten and really it might stop it ever happening again because nobody wants it to happen. I mean, it’s just a terrible thing really. But I mean when one or two old people have said to me when I’ve asked them well what you’ve got to realise is that the war started because the Germans went in and bombed Poland, Warsaw without even declaring war. And they dropped bombs on the city killing the Polish people so why shouldn’t they have it back because really and truthfully even with the Middle East now with Israel they’re the only country that if anybody goes and does anything to them they go straight back and do it to them. And they‘re the only people with any guts to do it because it might, it might stop it. I mean it’s, it’s silly really that people would be being annoyed about Bomber Command I think but there you are. That’s just what they feel I suppose. Well, that’s it.
NM: So you finished your tour.
GN: Yeah.
NM: With 460.
GN: Yeah.
NM: What happened after that? What did you do?
GN: Well, I was surprised really at what the Air Force did because surprisingly enough I got annoyed about one thing because after we finished and I went into Wymeswold or somewhere I think. Yes. It was Wymeswold I went to on rest. It came through on Orders and everything the whole of Ken Mullins’ crew were decorated. I was the only one that was left out and I thought well if they don’t want to recognise me I don’t want to do any more. So when it was my turn to come up they said, ‘What do you want to do?’ I said, ‘I don’t know want to do anything but fly.’ I said, ‘If I can’t fly. Nothing.’ So they said, ‘Oh dear. Can you drive?’ I said, ‘No. Never had a car. Never had the money for a car,’ I said. They said, ‘Well, that’s fair enough.’ The next thing they‘ve posted me to Kirkham and Wesham just outside Blackpool to a driving school for six weeks starting on Austin 7s, finished off on Thornycroft and trailers and stripping engines down and things. Marvellous time. I passed out and I passed my test with the police on the big Thornycroft lorry and the next thing I know I was posted. So I said, ‘Where am I posted to?’ And they said, ‘Brackla, Scotland.’ On the Moray Firth. I said, ‘Oh.’ Well, we got up there. Nothing to do. So I was there, must have been two or three months just hanging about and doing nothing really. Just drinking and so forth. And then they said ‘You’re posted.’ And I said, ‘Where am I posted?’ They said, ‘Biggin Hill.’ I said, ’That’s Fighter Command.’ They said, ‘Well, you’ve been posted to Biggin Hill.’ So I went to Biggin Hill. When I got there they said, ‘Oh, well —’ by this time of course I’m a flight sergeant you see so he said, ‘Oh well, we’ve got a job for you.’ I said, ‘What’s that then?’ ‘They said, ‘Driving the padre.’ And he was a real gentleman, the padre so I said, ‘Oh well, that’s alright.’ But he lived outside the camp. About two mile up the road from Biggin Hill.’ But he used to get as drunk as a Lord and I'd be sitting in the sergeant’s mess, the phone would ring and the steward would say, ‘You’re wanted on the phone.’ I used to say, ‘Right.’ Well, they’d say, ‘Officer’s mess here. Bring the car for the Padre.’ I used to go up. They used to bring him out paralytic, put him in the car. I used to take him home, get him out the car and take him up to the door, ring the bell and then run like hell because his wife would come out creating [laughs] because he was drunk. But he was, he was, when he was sober he was marvellous because we used to go around visiting airmen who were home on leave and taken ill and so forth and he used to have to go and visit. Or anybody got killed or anything he used to have to go to the funerals and so forth. And then they called me up to the Orderly Room and they said, ‘You’re posted.’ I said, Where am I posted to?’ They said, ‘Number 5 Staging Post.’ I said, ‘Where’s 5 Staging Post?’ They said, ‘Norway.’ I said, ‘I don’t want to go Norway. What the hell do I want to go to Norway for?’ They said, ‘Well, you’re posted there.’ So when I was, when I told the Padre I said, ‘They posted me.’ He said, ‘Well, where? Where to?’ So I said, ‘Norway.’ He said, ‘Do you want to go?’ ‘I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I don’t want to go. I might as well stay here.’ So he said, ‘Leave it with me. I'll see what I can do.’ He said, ‘Well, where do you live?’ I said, ‘Watford.’ So he said, ‘Oh, well. I’ll see what I can do.’ So, a week later they said it’s cancelled. ‘You're not. You’re not posted.’ A few weeks after that they said, ‘You’re posted.’ I said, ‘Oh, not again. Where am I posted to?’ Where do you think they posted me to? Number One Group Headquarters, Transport Command. Where was it? Bushey Hall Hotel, Watford. By this time I'm a WO and he said, ‘There's no officer there because they had to have an officer or a Warrant Officer in the section, Transport Section to draw the money for drivers that were out on driving when the Pay Parade was on so they got their money when they came back. So, they said they must have [pause] So he said, ‘You can be a Warrant Officer and sit in the office and just run it.’ Keep track of petrol because the transport on the station like the fire engine and the ambulance had to be run up every day to make sure it started in case anything happened. So of course, it used fuel and you used to have to balance the fuel to make sure the tanks were okay. And that's why they sent me to Bushey Hall. And I was there for about eight months I suppose and Group Captain Butler and one or two of them surprisingly enough, well I suppose it was, it was his life but used to ring up and he used to say, ‘Group Captain Butler here.’ ‘Yes Sir.’ ‘I need a car tomorrow because I'm doing a run around the circuit on all the stations. I'll be away for three or four days and I want a car to take me around to all the stations. I said, ‘Yes, sir.’ He said, ‘Who’s the driver?’ I said, ‘Well, LAC —’so and so. ‘Is it possible to have LACW — ’so and so? His fancy woman. A WAAF driver and I used to say, ‘No. That's quite alright, sir. I think we can manage that.’ And then he [laughs] they used to ring up and say, ‘Butler here. Do you want a new uniform?’ And then when I was notified to go to Uxbridge to get demobbed Butler said, ‘Stay in. Don't get demobbed. Stay in.’ But I was, I was married by then and and I said, ‘No. I’m alright.’ But that’s where they sent me and I finished up right on my doorstep. I couldn’t have been any closer. And I thought to myself well I’ve moaned and groaned but I said, I thought well I’m lucky really because the way I’ve been treated. You know, I mean I couldn’t fault it really. It was, you know absolute, well, it was so easy there up at Bushey Hall and of course the Yanks had just moved out of Bushey Hall and the Air Force had taken it over again and it was with the golf course and everything there, you know. Bushey Hall. And, well of course you live right near it don’t you? But that was another thing was that when my father died my mother had to do local work and one of the big houses halfway up Mount Pleasant Lane was Mr, Mr Bristow and my mother was doing housework for them. And Mr Bristow offered my mother to take her two boys, that’s my elder brother, my real brother, the others were step brothers and myself to send us to the Royal Masonic Orphanage, Bushey. We could have gone there. My mother wouldn’t let us go. But we could have been educated absolutely spot on there but that was one of those things, you know. She said no. She wouldn’t part with us so we didn’t go. But well as I say I think I’ve been very lucky that someone up there, at leas Old Nick has to take me. So, you know.
NM: So you were demobbed. So, what, what did you do then?
GN: And then I got demobbed and well with the money that I had with the gratuity coming out the Service and so forth I was married and we moved to Bexley Heath in Kent and I spent all my money buying a house, furniture and so forth and I went to work with my wife’s father in his engineering factory. And he had an engineering factory just outside Woolwich and I was working with him and we were doing work for the British American Optical Cigarette Companies, John Players and [Donegan] and Wills of Bedminster, Bristol. And I used to have to go down to these places and unfortunately for me I didn’t realise it at the time but a friend of theirs, a family, their son was carrying on with my wife. And it was only through luck one morning I got up to go to work and I thought, and I smoked so I stopped about twenty years ago but I used to smoke a lot then and I thought where’s the cigarette lighter? And her handbag was up there. I thought, oh well, the wife’s got a lighter, and I found a letter and there was no, you couldn’t say that there was nothing going on because it was absolutely written there. I thought well I must, must go because I might lose, do something that I shouldn’t and I went down, I went to work and her father came in and I said, ‘Look.’ He said, ‘Oh. Leave it with me.’ And he said, ‘I’ll come back.’ And he went and she just ran out of the house and that’s it. I never saw her again. And he said, we found that she had arranged for a furniture van to come the next day to take, even take the ruddy furniture out of the house and leave me with nothing. And they, they just, and I said, ‘That’s it. I’m packing up and I was out of work. I had no home. I got in debt with the Building Society. So I had to [unclear] and as it stood with the furniture and everything and of course I lost everything and I’d no money and I managed to get lodgings and fortunately the chap who I lodged with he was the manager of a shop and he said, ‘I’ll see if I could get you a job with me.’ He said, and we did. I got a job with him and it was Crown Wallpaper shops and he said, ‘Right. We’ll train.’ And I was with them for about six months and they said, ‘Right. Now we are opening a new shop at Dorking and you’ll be the manager.’ And I opened the shop at Dorking and after about nine months or so they moved me to a bigger shop at Epsom and then by this time I’d already got divorced because while I was at Dorking a local solicitor got in touch with me and said, ‘Mr Roberts from Bexley Heath, his solicitor has been in touch with us and wants you to divorce your wife.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ll think about it but what I should have done is said to him, ‘Yes, if I get back all the money I wasted on her. I want the ring and everything.’ But I didn’t. I said, he said, ‘You know if she comes knocking on your door,’ he said, ‘You’re bound by law to take her in.’ I said, ‘I don’t care if she does because,’ I said, ‘There’s no way that I’m taking her back and the point is my firm will move me and you’ll have to try and trace me,’ I said. So he said, ‘Well, I’ll explain it to them.’ And he came back to me and he said. ‘Well, they’re willing to pay all costs.’ So I said. ‘Well, if they’re willing to pay for everything. The divorce.’ He said, ‘Yes.’ Right. So he said, ‘Well I’ll get in touch with them and say you’ll do it.’ And he did do. He got in touch with me and said we’ll come up in the law courts. In those days it was a KC was Kings Council because the King was still alive then and we went in to, in to the court and the KC said to me, ‘When I put you in the witness box,’ he said, ‘Don’t look at me. Look up. You’ll see a round hole above where the judge is sitting.’ He said, ‘Look straight at that and all you say is yes, my lord. No, my lord. Don’t go into any conversation. Just say yes or no.’ He said, ‘I’ll ask you in a way that there’s only one question. One answer.’ So, I said, ‘Right.’ Went in. Bang. Bang. Bang. It was all over in about ten minutes. We just came out, he said, ‘Quick, wasn’t it?’ So, I said, ‘Yeah.’ But it cost him four hundred and fifty quid in those days. They paid it but I was still, I didn’t get anything back but I got divorced and then I eventually met the wife who is now and she lived at Chipperfield because I came to Watford from Epsom one day to see my brother. He lived in Watford and we went out and we met her, you see. And we palled up and gradually I thought well this is a long way apart you know. So I said to the area manager of the shop, I said, you know, ‘Any chance of getting a move somewhere?’ He said, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘I think we could arrange it.’ So they moved me to Ruislip and I got this job in Ruislip so I was a manager of the shop in Ruislip then for a few years and we got married and it was only after I suppose a year or so at Ruislip after we got married and I saw in the paper, “Reps wanted.” So I applied and I got a job at the Eveready Company, the battery people, as a representative and I was with them for quite a few years as a rep and then my brother said to me, he said, ‘I’ve bought a cab. A taxi.’ He said, ‘Why don’t you come in?’ So I thought well I’ll have a look at it to see. So I decided to sit the, sit the test so I did do but unfortunately for me somebody got in touch with Eveready and said that I was doing part time taxi work and they said, ‘You’ll give up the taxi or we’ll sack you.’ So I said, ‘Well, fair enough.’ I said, ‘You can do what you like.’ I said, ‘I’m not going to give it up.’ And then I was with, I was a taxi driver then for my own taxi for twenty five years until I retired. That’s right. There you are. But, no, I had a marvellous time even taxi driving really because I picked up so many people, you know. Hughie Green, I couldn’t stand him on the television. “Opportunity Knocks.” But I used to drive him about quite a lot when he lived at Baker Street and he was a marvellous bloke. And he used to fly his plane in to Leavesden Airport, and I used to pick him up there at Leavesden Airport and take him up to Baker Street. But the first thing he used to say, ‘You know the first drop?’ I said, ‘Yeah, [Cornice] Drive.’ ‘No. The pub.’ [laughs] He wanted a drink. So then Sir John Mills from, he lived at Denham. I picked him up quite a few times. Diana Dors. I mean there was so many different people and so many actors and that that you picked up. It was surprising. I had a marvellous time really. I couldn’t complain about that but the wife didn’t like it because she didn’t like the job and the hours, you know. It was the thing but there you are it was one of those things I suppose. So —
NM: So the RAF taught you to drive and —
GN: Pardon?
NM: The RAF taught you to drive.
GN: Oh yeah. Yeah.
NM: And you became a taxi driver.
GN: Of course. That was another thing.
NM: That was the rest of your life.
GN: And oh, that, that [laughs] you just, you’ve now surprised me when you were just you’re now surprised me with something I’d completely forgotten because when I first come out the first time I’d spent all that and I couldn’t afford a car so I let the licence lapse and of course when I come to meet the wife that is now and I thought about a car I found my driving licence but I’d have to pass the test again. So I bought an old Singer car and I applied to pass the test and they said Slough. Safety town in those days when they first brought out the safety crossings and so forth. So I said, ‘Yeah. Right.’ They said, ‘Well, we’ll have to send you down.’ And I said, they sent me down. I put the, put the application in and I got a letter back saying yes, you know, a week’s time. Come so and so, something else. So I reported there. The instructor came out. He said, ‘Right. Lets go.’ And we started off and he said, ‘Now when we’re going along along I will suddenly put my hand on the windscreen.’ He said, ‘I want you to do an emergency stop.’ So I said, ‘Yes. Right. Fair enough.’ Boom. Bang. The ruddy seat broke and he went back [laughs] in the back of the car and he said, ‘God, where did you learn to drive?’ I said, ‘Kirkham on Wesham.’ I said, ‘At Blackpool. British School of Motoring.’ He said, ‘Well, I can’t fail you.’ He said, ‘Because I was one of the instructors.’ [laughs] And he passed me. That’s it. So I got a driving licence again. There you are. But I forgot all about that. Well, it was so funny at the time because it was a little old car, you know. It wasn’t worth much but still and as I say he finished up in the back of the car. But no, I suppose when looking back on life I have been extremely lucky because things have happened that you know you wouldn’t think you would get over but I’ve never really survived, thought that I would go. I mean even during the war I was surprised. Surprisingly enough the night we went to Magdeburg we were standing outside the aircraft waiting to take off and the doctor came around, I took, took the pills and so forth and there was an atmosphere and I thought something is going to happen. But I wasn’t afraid because although I knew that something was going to go wrong that I would survive. That I would still be there so what it was I don’t know but it was and after that every time anything has happened I’ve always known that I was going to survive it. I don’t know why but it’s just one of those things, you know. You feel, like when I went in for the operation it didn’t frighten me because I knew I was going to survive. But the wife and my daughters came in the hospital and they said that I was still unconscious and the tubes are out here and up your nose, down your throat and everywhere and of course they thought well that’s it. He’s going to go. You know. They didn’t think I would survive. I said, but surprisingly I knew that I would survive. I don’t know why but there you are. It’s one of those things. I suppose you know you think yourself extremely lucky if you’ve got those premonitions that you will survive whatever happens. I’ve even, I’ve even did that with a car. With a, with a car because I was doing a lot of driving and I was, I did a silly thing. I drove all day Friday, Friday night I drove somebody down to Cornwall. Saturday morning I drove back to Margate to pick somebody up to bring back to Watford and it was in the wintertime and there was a bit of snow on the ground and I came, I dropped them in Watford and I came up Watford High Street and I got to where the Town Hall roundabout is and there was, there is another roundabout where the Technical College is. And when it happened I don’t even remember driving around those roundabouts but I must have fallen asleep at the wheel because I woke up in a crash. I went straight into a lamppost. The whole front of the car collapsed, the steering wheel collapsed and the door came off and I managed to drive the car because it was automatic. I didn’t have to change gear. I still drove the car off the main road around to the little road that runs off the roundabout by the Technical College. Parked up. Absolute write off but I hadn’t got a scratch. Afterwards I thought amazing. When they looked at the car they said, ‘How did you survive it?’ Because the steering wheel was all collapsed and gone. Everything. And the whole front of the car had gone. So there again. I survived it. I don’t know. My wife, my daughter said to me once, ‘You’re very lucky. You’ve got nine lives like a cat I suppose.’ But there you are. One of those things. But anyway, is there anything more we can help you with?
NM: Just looking back at your time in Bomber Command I mean you’ve touched on it a few times already but what are your main reflections as you look back?
GN: My main what?
NM: What are your main thoughts and reflections as you look back on your time in Bomber Command?
GN: Well, I I think it was a terrible thing to have to do but I think it was something that had to be done because I think personally that Bomber Command dropping the bombs shortened the war because I think it would have gone on longer. So I don’t think to myself that I don’t feel guilty about dropping bombs because I think it did do something to help stop the war because I know, I know that when I first got demobbed that they went, I went back to the firm when I got demobbed out the Service. I was in Watford. Although I was married we’d got digs in Watford and everything and I went back, they said, ‘Oh, you’ll get your job back that you volunteered from.’ So I went in and I reported there and I was just clocking in and a chap came up. He said, ‘Who are you.’ I said, ‘Sorry, sir. I’m just starting work.’ Where’s your card?’ I said, ‘What card?’ He said, ‘Your Union card.’ I said, ‘I haven’t got a Union card.’ ‘You can’t start here.’ I said, ‘Well, fair enough. I can’t start then.’ So I waited until the managers come in and when the managers come in they went in to the office to see this shop steward or whatever he was then, he came in. ‘He can’t start here. He’s got to have a Union card.’ I said, ‘I’ve just fought a dictator.’ I said, ‘You’re dictating.’ I said, ‘If you’d have come to me and said, ‘Look, it’s now a fully-fledged Union shop. Will you join the Union?’ I said, ‘I would have said yes but,’ I said, ‘The way you’ve told me I’ve got to join the Union. Do this. Do that,’ I said, ‘There’s no way I’m going to do it.’ And they couldn’t sack me. They had to keep me for six months. But six months to the day the manager called me in to the office. He said, ‘Look, take a week off and find yourself another job.’ He said, ‘Because,’ he said, ‘We’ll have to let you go next week.’ I said, ‘Fair enough.’ They gave me a week’s holiday and I found another job. But that’s what turned me against Unions because it was the attitude. They were, I said, ‘We’ve just fought a war against a dictator.’ I said, ‘You don’t dictate to people. You ask them.’ But there you are. That’s the way it is I suppose. That’s one of the things that put me off of Unions and going in to a factory again. But there you are. Never mind.
[recording paused]
And it lasted a long while but that’s the only thing as I say I hope it’s done some good to stop any more wars if we can because no war, every, any war is a terrible thing. I don’t know why people have to fight. We know most wars are caused by either politics or religion and why they have to fight and kill people because they don’t believe what you believe in. You haven’t got to turn around and kill them. But they do. Why? That is one thing I can never understand. Why they can do that because it doesn’t matter what they believe in really. Everybody is the same. You are free to do and believe what you want. But there you are. They don’t. I suppose they think it’s the right thing to do. I don’t know. Anyway, do you want a cup of coffee or anything?
NM: No. I’m fine. Thank you very much.
GN: Are you sure?
NM: Yeah. I really appreciate it. Yeah. No, I’m fine. Thank you.
[recording paused]
GN: He was a prisoner of war, Reg was. For the rest of the war. And it was Reg who said, that’s Reg White. That’s another one of 460s ones. And these and Reg said to me, ‘Would you be willing to go to Dunstable once a month? To the ATC at Dunstable?’ I said, ‘Yeah. Why? What for? What for Reg?’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘The officer in charge of 460, of ATC at Dunstable has got in touch with 460 Squadron in Australia and they have given him my name and he’s asked me would we go to visit them. So I said, ‘What for?’ He said, ‘Well the thing is,’ he said, ‘They are 460 Squadron ATC.’
NM: Oh right.
GN: But they want to change it because they don’t like the number and he said, but the Air Force got in touch with him and said you don’t change. You don’t want to change it because 460 Squadron was the top squadron of number 1 Group, Bomber Command. And Peg Leg Ray was the, Air Commodore Ray was the, was the CO then and they said, ‘Would you be willing to go and visit the ATC? So we did do and we got invited to their do’s and meet the Mayor of Dunstable and so forth and we were given the Freedom of Dunstable and everything. And we, and then it, unfortunately he’s now left. He’s been promoted. He’s gone to another ATC and the one that’s there now is not interested in doing a veteran’s do, so we had to leave it. And this one is [pause] and this was the order of a wreath laying and so forth. We went to that one. That’s the Australian War Museum in London. We went to that one.
NM: So what was it like serving on a mainly Australian squadron as opposed to being an Englishman on an English squadron?
GN: Oh they were marvellous blokes. I couldn’t fault it. People say about them but alright they were a bit rough and tumble but once you got to know them they were absolutely marvellous blokes. Yeah. There’s the original paper.
NM: Did you get any ribbing for being an Englishman?
GN: Any what?
NM: Did you get any ribbing for being a Pommie?
GN: Oh yeah, they called, oh yes. They did everything they could, you know. Only in fun. They did it all in fun. They were marvellous blokes because on the ground you were all the same. But when you were flying you did what they say. The officer takes over but when you were on the ground you could never be broke because if they ever said, one bloke said to you, ‘Go on. Let’s go down the pub.’ Say, ‘Oh no. I’m a bit skint.’ ‘Come on. I’ve got two pound. Come on. Off we go.’ But you were the same as them. You had to be the same as them and you got on well with them and as I say I’ve, to me they were absolutely marvellous. I think it was probably better than going on a British squadron because I think they were all marvellous blokes and of course with all the, even the, a lot of the ground crew were Aussies as well, you see. Not only were the aircrew Aussies but I mean in charge of our aircraft, Teece’s aircraft was Flight Sergeant Tickle. He was an Australian. An absolutely marvellous bloke. Australia. Hoping that 460 Squadron Association —
NM: So this was, this was your —
GN: Veterans will try and trace anybody, relatives of Ron.
NM: So this was your pal, Ron on 460. This is, I just, I have to catch up on the recording here. You, at the Spire you found his name.
GN: Yeah. Ronny Mansfield. Yeah.
NM: And you took a photograph.
GN: Well, hoping that they can find somebody and I could send them a photograph and, a couple of photographs that I’ve got and so forth I could send out to them but I don’t suppose I’ll go to Australia again. I’m a bit too old now because the trouble is with going abroad now at my age is the insurance. They charge you a fortune.
[recording paused]
GN: I always had a job to get into the turret because you’d got the rear bulkhead doors and you had a gangplank down in to the turret but when I’d got my electrically heated suit on and everything and I got in to the turret I couldn’t get my hand, or arm around to open the rear turret doors once I’d centralised the turret to get out if anything happened. So Ronnie’s job was to come down if anything happened, open the bulkhead doors, come down, open the turret doors to let me out. So that’s how I got so friendly with him because that that was agree that if anything did happen to us he would help me out because our parachute was in the fuselage you see. It wasn’t in the turret with me was it? So I’ve got to get out to get the parachute to jump out you see. But I don’t know whether you know the story of Alkemade do you? Sergeant Alkemade [pause] Well Sergeant Alkemade was given a certificate by the Germans because Alkemade was in a damaged aircraft and it was crashing and Alkemade couldn’t get out to get his parachute. So he turned the turret on the beam because the aircraft was on fire and he opened the doors and fell out backwards as they were at eighteen thousand feet. And he lived because it was near the Black Forest and it was in the middle of winter and the thing that saved him was the pine trees that go like that. He hit the pine trees and they broke his fall but he fell in to a twelve foot snow drift and when the Germans found him he had a broken leg and broken arm and one or two things. They wouldn’t believe him that he had jumped without a parachute but they had to because he’d still got his parachute harness on with the buckle and the clips. So when you put your parachute on the front and pulled the rip cord they come out and swing you over but his was still intact. It had no burst, it proved that he had jumped without a parachute and lived. That was Sergeant Alkemade. Whether he’s still alive or not I don’t know but it’s in one of the gunnery books I’ve got. It’s called, “The Tail Gunner.” The book. And Alkemade was one of them.
NM: So as a rear gunner do you —
GN: I was a rear gunner. Yeah.
NM: Did you feel a long way from the rest of the crew? Did you feel very isolated?
GN: Well you did feel a little bit a long way but as I say you felt satisfied that they all would all do what they could to get you out and as I say Ron was, his first job was to come down and open the bulkhead doors and go down and open the turret doors for me because there’s no way I would have got out I don’t think if I had to have got out quick. But fortunately it never happened that I had to get out quick and the only time as I say that I did get out the turret was when I was knocked through by the guns. They put me in hospital for about a fortnight because, oh they rushed me in to hospital because I’d bit my tongue. Holding on in some way I’d bitten my tongue. I had blood coming out my mouth and they thought it had hit the ribs and broken, it broke three of them off the ends and turned the end to the lung and pierced the lung. And they sent a telegram to my mother saying I was dying. To go and visit me in hospital in Louth. Yeah. The old County Infirmary. They sent her a, you know, that I wouldn’t live because they thought my lung was punctured but it wasn’t. Fortunately, it missed. It didn’t quite touch the lung. They’d knotted up. The only thing is now that if I walk very far I get a terrible pain there and they thought worse. Heart trouble. But the doctors say no. It’s not heart trouble. It’s the muscle of the lung because the rib is too near the lung.
NM: That’s from following that crash.
GN: Yeah.
NM: After the Magdeburg crash.
GN: Yeah.
NM: Wow.
GN: Yeah. I was fortunate there that that didn’t puncture the lung but there you are. It’s just, I suppose it’s fate really. As I say I’m not a religious person. I don’t believe in religion but I believe in fate. I think it’s just fate. What’s going to happen is going to happen. That’s it and there’s no way you can stop it, you know. So one of these things. But anybody that’s religious well good luck to them if they want to believe it, you know but the damned fools all fight over it. It’s just, it’s to me it’s utterly useless and a waste of a life because there’s no reason for it. But there you are. I suppose it’s one of those things. Religious fanatics and there you are.
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Interview with Gerard Norwood
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Nigel Moore
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2016-02-01
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01:39:03 audio recording
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Gerard’s father died when he was very young and was so raised by his mother and his stepfather, who he and his brother disliked. He was working at an engineering factory when the war broke out and continued until 1942, at which point most of his friends had gone to war, so he decided to volunteer for the air force after failing to join the army and navy. He joined the air defence cadet ward, and then volunteered for aircrew. Six weeks later he got a letter calling him to Oxford University for an examination and a medical – Gerard passed everything except mathematics. After 3-4 months he was called up. As a sergeant he went to Sifford to pick up a crew and so was transferred to another operational training unit as a rear gunner. While there he caught rheumatic fever and was in hospital when his crew were killed as their plane crashed on take-off on a training flight.
He flew with Flight Sergeant Dalish to Stuttgart, and then Frankfurt and Berlin. He describes how he had to call evasive action several times during his tours. He flew on D-Day to bomb just inside the French coast.
On a flight all four engines stopped and although they did manage to land the skipper refused to fly as a skipper again saying he would not take on the responsibility of the lives of a crew and would only fly solo. Gerard says they did not often make friends outside of their crew because too often they did not come home.
After finishing his tour with 460 Squadron he was posted into Blackpool to a driving school, passing his test and then being posted to Scotland and then to RAF Biggin Hill. Gerard later got married and moved to Kent and went to work with his father-in-law at an engineering factory
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
Germany--Braunschweig
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Stuttgart
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Berlin
France
Contributor
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Julie Williams
William Evans
Temporal Coverage
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1944-01-14
1944-01-15
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
460 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
crash
Ju 88
Lancaster
military service conditions
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Biggin Hill
RAF Binbrook
RAF Seighford
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1027/11399/PMcVickersCG1701.2.jpg
e63e360b9d8c44c497cd07bf38ac604f
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1027/11399/AMcVickersCG171006.1.mp3
e70c5002647526a9e94ca6d62c386bfe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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McVickers, Christopher George
C G McVickers
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Christopher George McVickers (1922 - 2018, 1042135 Royal Air Force), his log book identity card and disks and his decorations. He completed a tour of operations as a wireless operator with 218 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Christopher McVickers and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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McVickers, CG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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HB: Right. This is an interview for the International Bomber Command.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Digital Archive between Harry Bartlett, representing the Archive and Christopher George McVickers who was a member of 218 Gold Coast Squadron and served throughout the war in —
CM: Well —
HB: With 218.
CM: ’41.
HB: From 1941 through and served after the war through to 1965.
CM: ’67.
HB: Thank you. I was wrong.
CM: Well —
HB: I have.
CM: Don’t forget I wasn’t flying for the last eighteen months. I was just, I was a missile controller.
HB: Right. Right. So, Kit isn’t it?
CM: Kit.
HB: We call you Kit.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right. Where you were born, Kit?
CM: Blackhill, County Durham.
HB: Right. And did you go to school at Blackhill?
CM: I’ve no recollection of ever going to school.
HB: No.
CM: I forgot about it. I went to school quite obviously.
HB: Obviously.
CM: Went to school at Benfieldside.
HB: Aye. And, and your first job was in —
CM: Errand boy.
HB: Yeah. In the —
CM: As you did in those days. This was, I’m talking 1935 ’36 you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Did up to fourteen.
HB: So you were an errand boy.
CM: I failed the eleven plus.
HB: Right.
CM: But it wasn’t — I had a broken arm during that period and also went to hospital with scarlet fever during that period.
HB: Right.
CM: When I came back to school because obviously the sickness thing. And the eleven plus was pending, I couldn’t do it at the time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I couldn’t sit at the desk like that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I missed all the revision and everything else. So, they all said, you’d have no chance with that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I took, I took it privately. By myself.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Just with my arm out of the, just like that. So consequently I didn’t know how to pick my pen up or to write.
HB: Aye.
CM: So I made a mess of it and I failed it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So there was a lot of talk about it at the time. Jane knows all about this. And my father made such a fuss of this. ‘My son has never had a chance. He’s had no chance. No revision. Nothing at all.’ Sat down with his arm out of his sling and taking an important — so that’s, but at that time they did their very best.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But they couldn’t do anything about it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So you just —
CM: I was going to pass the eleven plus but I didn’t due to circumstances.
HB: Yeah. So you became an errand boy.
CM: Yeah. I was. I won’t say I was a very humble errand boy but I was the best errand boy in the locality.
HB: Yes. Absolutely. And you went to the steelworks I understand.
CM: Yes. My father, my father’s brother Kit who was the, as I said was general secretary of the Iron, Steel, British Iron, Steel and Kindred Trades Association. So he had so much power he could say to me, ‘It’s your sixteenth birthday coming up Kit lad.’ Kit lad. He said Kit lad. He said, ‘Just report to the timekeeper and say you’re Uncle Kit sent you,’ he said, ‘You’ll be set on.’ So I thought, My God, this is nepotism but in a fine sort of way but that’s how I got the steelworks.
HB: And that was at, that was in Consett.
CM: Within two years of course, those were ’36 ’37 then the war broke out and instead of being, doing, on the staff of the steelworks which I was they said, ‘Ok. We’re going to need all the best men we’ve got to man, man the furnaces,’ because a lot of the people on the furnaces had been, were Territorials and they’d been called up anyway. So semi promotion was not only I was going to be boy plus beyond boy to the eighteen year old man. Man’s, man’s business. So suddenly I got promotion beyond the dreams of avarice.
HB: Oh lovely.
CM: But the only fault of it was the timekeepers thought these were boys and they’d be boy labourers. Therefore, they must pay boy labourers wages. So about three months later Kit said to me, he said, ‘How are you spending all the extra money Kit lad?’ And all I was getting was, I said, ‘Well, I’m not getting any extra money.’ I’m getting boy’s labourers wages. He said, ‘What?’ He said, ‘Just stay here. Don’t move from that place for ten minutes.’ And off he went to see the, not the commanding officer —
HB: No.
CM: The general service manager. You know, the boss. Came back and said, ‘Don’t worry,’ he said, ‘You’ll get all the backpay you get at full men’s wages. Not only that it’s all the people who’ve been doing the same thing as you. They’ll get the same thing. Well, I was the most popular chap in the steelworks. By this time it was quite a lump sum between boy’s labourers wages and men’s labourers wages.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Anyway, I did pretty well because leaving school at fourteen didn’t make much difference. I had the intelligence then in the first place. Which I would, that’s why my father said I would have been a cert for the grammar school.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I had the grammar school brains without the grammar qualifications.
CM: That’s —
HB: So I did alright.
HB: So that was up to, that was sort of ’37 ’38.
CM: That’s right. Well —
HB: So, so, how, how did you come to join the RAF?
CM: It was 1941 before I joined the Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
CM: By that time I was nineteen.
HB: Yeah. And did you, did you volunteer Kit?
CM: Oh yeah. Yeah. They wouldn’t let you go unless you volunteered.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And you had to be, you had to volunteer for either submarines or aircrew or some other damned dangerous job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They wouldn’t let you go otherwise. They wouldn’t let you go just to be an ordinary soldier.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: You know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You’re more important then to be manning the furnaces.
HB: Yeah. So, so it was so you basically you were in a Reserved Occupation.
CM: Oh, that’s right. Yes, I was. Yes.
HB: And then to —
CM: Like Kit. Like Kit himself.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: The boss. And the boss of the steelworks. They were all Reserved Occupation.
HB: Yeah. So you then went from Reserved Occupation and you volunteered for aircrew.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right.
CM: But if it had been anything other than aircrew they would said no.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Back to where you were more useful.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Which I was by then. I was an experienced furnaceman. A fourth. There a fourth hand, third hand, second hand and first hand. You know, four men manned the furnaces. So you progressed from fourth hand to first hand but it took you about forty years to do it.
HB: Yeah. Oh yeah.
CM: The SiC turn system. [unclear] was in operation.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So —
CM: Organised by my Uncle Kit.
HB: Yeah. So you come and join the RAF. And you obviously had to go for your [pause] you obviously had to go for your training. Where did, where did you go for your training?
CM: First three months was Blackpool.
HB: That’s —
CM: General service training.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You know, square bashing.
HB: Was that at Padgate?
CM: No. That was at Blackpool.
HB: At Blackpool.
CM: Yeah. Blackpool.
HB: Right and —
CM: And from there to Yatesbury.
HB: You went to Yatesbury.
CM: Yeah. But, well say Yatesbury. In actual fact it was a branch of Compton Bassett which was the Ground Radio School. Yatesbury was the Air Radio School.
HB: Ah. Right.
CM: You went to the Ground Radio School because we weren’t going straight on to be at the air gunner’s course. There was a bit of backlog so we went in —
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Graduated as wireless operators at this station. I was supposed to get to Anglesey but there wasn’t flying there.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But they had a small station that was there to get experience of this.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just general wireless operating which stood me in good stead because by the time we really got to the squadron, you know, I was an experienced wireless op.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Not only just getting practice but doing the real thing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But that made me a pretty good wireless operator to start with, with the experience I had.
HB: Oh right. So that —
CM: So —
HB: So you progressed through that training.
CM: That’s right.
HB: In ’41.
CM: That’s right. And then I was doing these stints at various units and then eventually I was called back. This time to Yatesbury to do what they called the refresher course. Six weeks.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Refreshers. Getting, you know the last time that we were nineteen year old nincompoops. They said — we’d better give them a bit more of a refresher.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That was good.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I found that I learned more in the six week refresher course than I’d learned for the whole three months before. Getting it again. Because by that time —
HB: Yeah.
CM: I knew what I was all about.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I could take it in better. So, as I said I came and graduated as a W/op AG at [pause] we didn’t do any flying at the gunnery school. It was at a ground gunnery school only because at that time, 1943 the losses, the losses were so great they wanted people desperately at the squadrons. And that’s where I got a, I did a —
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was a w/op AG without doing the air gunnery course. But I still wore a gunner’s brevet because I’d been trained as a ground gunner. That’s, they just cut the courses short.
HB: Yeah.
CM: At that time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So, I graduated in June, 2nd of June 1943 as a w/op ag. Wireless operator/air gunner.
HB: Air gunner. Yeah. Right. So in [pause] you end up in 1943 in, at the OTU at Ossington.
CM: That’s right.
HB: That’s obviously where you start, start your proper flying and wireless operating.
CM: That’s right. With Sergeant Topham.
HB: Yeah.
CM: As my captain. But he couldn’t, when he went to the Lancaster finishing, the Stirling OTU. What did they call it? Heavy Conversion Unit.
HB: Yeah.
CM: When we eventually got there we realised that Johnny Topham, even though he was a wonderful man. He was an ex-police, police sergeant from Newcastle he picked me because I was an ex-errand boy from Consett.
HB: From Durham. County Durham. Yeah.
CM: But he couldn’t fly a — he couldn’t land a Stirling. Stirlings are very very difficult aircraft to land because they’re high up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I can show you a photograph of a Stirling, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: A hell of a, if you fell out the cockpit of a Stirling you’d kill yourself.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It’s so high.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he couldn’t land the Stirling. Very difficult to judge the distance.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because of this huge electrical undercarriage and everything.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Very difficult to gauge. Two or three feet as you circle, bang down with a hell of a — break the undercarriage. So you had to be really a skilful, have the feel to start with and Johnny couldn’t do it.
HB: Right.
CM: So he had to go by the board. He went to Lancaster Finishing School and got away with another crew and did a tour of operations.
HB: Right. So, so —
CM: Nevertheless, I went, we got Johnny, with Johnny Lloyd who was an ex-instructor.
HB: Ah right. So that’s, that’s the Lloyd that appears in the operational record.
CM: That’s right.
HB: With you. Oh right. So, it says in your logbook you just, perhaps you can explain it to me it says OTU satellite Bircotes.
CM: That’s right. In each of these OTUs they always had a spare. For diversions and things like that. And sometimes you’d be stationed at the satellite because it was more convenient. To take more, more aircraft in the air. More people going through. So Bircotes was a small grass field right almost just on the edge of Bircotes mining village.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: So but there was a lot of juggling about there with pilots like Johnny Topham I’ve just been telling you about and other people like that. John Lloyd, the other bloke too, he went LMF as well. So it was branded as a kind of a jerky sort of tour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You went to. You see it followed through the worst thing. I’d be a long time in the squadron with Johnny Lloyd and of course every time he took us he took us fly us he took us, he could fly a Stirling, every time he took us to it he could [unclear] with it. They thought was great. We thought was great actually to have a captain who could fling a Stirling around the sky as if he’d been born and bred to it. But of course the authorities didn’t like it. They wanted to be trained in the orthodox sort of way.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So my passes to these sort of things is varied, many and varied.
HB: Yeah. I don’t know if you can remember this, Kit as just an interesting little note in here. September the 4th 1943. You’re with Sergeant Topham as the pilot.
CM: That’s right. Johnny Topham.
HB: And you’re doing a, you’re in a Wellington.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And you’re doing a cross country test.
CM: Yes.
HB: Routine test. And it says in here that you couldn’t maintain your height.
CM: That’s right.
HB: So what happened?
CM: Crashed at, crashed at Catfoss. Doesn’t it, doesn’t it mention crashing at Catfoss?
HB: Yeah. Yeah. It does.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. So, so what? You just hit the ground and slid.
CM: Well, we were coming in to land. The communication wasn’t very good. But he had got to the air traffic control that we were coming in to land because he had lost, lost an engine. He couldn’t maintain height. But when we approached the runway there was a Beaufort, a Beaufort. At Catfoss was Beauforts. It was a Coastal Command station.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he’s on the end of runway. So what can we do? We had to get down because the aircraft wouldn’t make it. It wouldn’t have got off the other side.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Only one engine and that engine was derated.
HB: Ah.
CM: It was derated and therefore it was not, they couldn’t put us off anyway. In spite of the fact the engine was, and we’d lost one altogether they’re going to crash anyway. So at the very end of the runway Johnny was trying to get over the Beaufort that was standing at the end of the runway who obviously wasn’t aware what was coming in behind. Just at the last minute he just kind of boosted over the Beaufort and hit the ground but then that lifted pretty well high up. Then when we landed this time hit too hard, undercarriage split and we crashed in to —
HB: Slid down.
CM: That’s it.
HB: Anybody hurt?
CM: No. Of course with the Wellington when it crashes on the ground you can’t get out.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Did you know that?
HB: Yeah.
CM: You get in through the nose.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that goes straight against the ground. So they’d got a screened, a screened navigator basically standing beside me in the astrodome. And he undid, I wouldn’t have known about this, he undid the four screws under the astrodome and just on the approach he knew. He knew what he was doing. He was going to make an escape hatch to start with before we even got down.
HB: Right.
CM: And he put us down. He says, ‘You’re going out there.’ The only snag is that when we hit I was knocked arse over t [laughs] and I was lost. But the navigator he hung on. He was experienced. He hung on and he was the first out. And when the others would have got out the same, the pilot got through the cockpit.
HB: Aye. Aye.
CM: Which took a lot of time to take in. Of course I was hit in the back and I strolled out of the, from underneath the astrodome and I heard the navigator say, ‘The w/ops still in there. The w/ops still in there.’ Because expecting the Wellingtons are notorious burners.
HB: Aye.
CM: Experienced. And then one of the, one of the brave members of my crew got in. I’ve forgotten his name, what it was now. But he was the chap and he hooked me out. He sort of picked me up and pushed me through the astrodome.
HB: Right. That’s —
CM: And I can’t, looking back I can’t ever remember thanking that chap.
HB: No.
CM: I was so shocked that they did that. That Kit McVickers was involved in this crash. I couldn’t get over it. But I can’t ever, I may have done. I think I should have done through my background and training.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I can’t ever remember saying. Look [pause] I can’t even remember his name.
HB: And that was just a, and that was just a routine training flight.
CM: That’s right. That’s right.
HB: At night. A night time one.
CM: I was very pleased of course that the crew were around me.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The most wonderful men. But then again all the crews I’ve ever had. They were all wonderful men.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So then you moved on to the Conversion Units at Chedburgh and Wratting Common.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And that, and was that when, that was when you moved to Stirlings was it? From the Wellingtons?
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. Oh, I see what you mean. Yes. Yeah. Topham was, Topham was your, was your pilot nearly all the way through there. And then [pause] it’s alright. I’m just, I’ve turned two pages in your logbook here. At Stradishall is where you joined up or you occasionally flew with Lloyd. What, what was his name? What was his name?
CM: What? Whose? What was —
HB: Lloyd. The pilot. Lloyd. What was his name? His full name.
CM: Just on Stirlings.
HB: No. On, yeah, Stirlings. Yeah.
CM: Well, first of all there was Johnny Topham.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And then Johnny. Johnny Lloyd. Both Johnny’s.
HB: They were both Johnny.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Right. So you, so then you pick up with Johnny Lloyd at Stradishall.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And you, and you do your training there and then you’re posted to 218 Squadron at Woolfox Lodge.
CM: Woolfox Lodge. Yeah. The best station I’ve ever been on.
HB: Right
CM: Right on the Great North Road.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: The billet. Within one minute of leaving my billet I’d be out on the side of the road and the boys — here’s my younger daughter now and her husband are coming. You’re very popular Mr Bartlett. Fred is it? Fred or Jim? First name.
HB: Harry.
CM: Harry. God, I was going to [unclear] yeah. And of course there was always traffic going backwards and forwards.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Military traffic.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You always get that. So I was lucky in that respect. This is, this is Mr Bartlett. Harry Bartlett.
Other: I Know. We spoke on the phone.
HB: Let me just, let me just, let me just stop the tape.
CM: Fiona.
HB: For a second.
CM: Yeah.
[recording paused]
HB: It’s 12.30 and we’re going to restart.
CM: Does that mean that memorable conversation hasn’t been recorded then?
HB: No. Perhaps as well we haven’t recorded that bit of the conversation. Right.
CM: But that, that was part of my life and of course we depend on communications with the girlfriends to keep us going. We looked forward. No one was more popular than the postman at Bomber Command. Letters coming in. Really beautiful. People loved their communications.
HB: Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. Well, we’ll just go back. We’re on 218, Gold Coast Squadron now. And that’s — sorry I’ve, I’ve closed the book and lost the page.
CM: It is bewildering because it isn’t straightforward because losing these people to LMF and one way or another it became a little bit bitty through my tour.
HB: Yes. Yes. That’s [pause] sorry that’s — I’ve, I’ve somehow managed to lose the whole of the Second World War there to closing the pages. A clever thing to do.
CM: I know. It’s easily done.
HB: Right. So, so you’re on, you’re on Stirlings. We’re in 1944 and you’re flying operations then. And you’re doing all the standard.
CM: But don’t forget at that time there’s the preparation for, D-Day was coming and of course although we were on the squadron but we were the new boys. And they didn’t want, with this big invasion going to take place, new boys cluttering up the edges. So consequently we found ourselves as a crew just chucked a little bit to one side because they wanted to get the main force trained. We were just incidental. So the only chance we’d got of getting operational in those days was mine laying. But of course even mine laying went by the board. We were also trained. Trained up to do this raid on the, with 617 Squadron dropping radars. Dropping Window all along the route to indicate a big fleet going to the north of where they actually landed. And 218 and 617 were two squadrons doing that. I wasn’t even on that because we were just on the, we were the new boys.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On the edges.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But with all this activity going on but not being part of it and we were too late to join it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They didn’t want to be cluttered up because at that time it was getting on for June wasn’t it? If you look at the date it’s getting on for June the 6th
HB: Yeah.
CM: D-Day.
HB: Because, because throughout what you’re talking about. Through, throughout June and [pause] June and July you’re flying bullseye.
CM: Yeah. The bullseye was the last thing before you actually did operations. It just kept, took in all the aspects of bombing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Without actually being there. Bullseye. It was. There was some navigation, dropping bombs and practice bombs and flares. We did use operational techniques without being actually on operations.
HB: Right. Right.
CM: That sort of thing.
HB: Right. So, we’ve come through June. We’ve got into July. You’re still doing a lot of training flights.
CM: That’s right. Because that was the aftermath. Things were still in a bit of chaos.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did my first operation there. Sometime around, around about. Generally, on pages you can see war operation. I didn’t even know how to report in my logbook. You never put war operations. You put operations.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Have you seen it yet? Operation. War operation. That was the only one we did in the Stirling.
HB: I’ll have a quick. I’ve got it. War operation.
CM: The one.
HB: That was the 8th of July.
CM: Yeah. So I missed getting the —
HB: Yeah. That was in a Stirling.
CM: That’s right.
HB: With the pilot, with —
CM: Lloyd.
HB: Warrant Officer Lloyd. Johnny Lloyd. Johnny. Johnny Lloyd.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And that was — Attacked FB. Flying —
CM: Flying bomb.
HB: Flying bomb depot.
CM: Yeah.
HB: In daylight.
CM: That’s right.
HB: [unclear] Capel. Yeah.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Right. So that was, that was your first was it?
CM: That’s right.
HB: That was your first op.
CM: Also shortly after that they decided they weren’t going to fly Stirlings anymore so in all the chaos their transferring to Lancasters. You see.
HB: Right [coughs] excuse me. Oh yes. Because by August you’re doing, you’re doing the training on Lancasters. And then we get to September ’44. Then it really starts doesn’t it?
CM: Well, our Johnny went LMF if you read it.
HB: Who? Who went LMF?
CM: Of course that’s not in my logbook because you couldn’t put anything. You didn’t even leave. You just didn’t leave the ground.
HB: No.
CM: You just sat on the side of the runway.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it’s not, it’s not even listed because why, why should it be? We didn’t get airborne.
HB: No. Who? Who, who actually went LMF?
CM: That you’ll find that in the end Warrant Officer Lloyd ends. No more for him at all. And they get a new one. This one. It took a bit of, it took about three or four weeks to get a new captain who was Hill. Warrant Officer Hill.
HB: Oh yeah that was —
CM: Who was the best pilot.
HB: That was December. Yeah. In the December. Right. And well we’ll, we’ll come on to that because you’re flying with Lloyd in Lancasters. NF 955 and 56. And you’re doing operations at Le Havre. Three. Three times you went over Le Havre.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And —
CM: On the last trip there, when Glenn Miller was — we jettisoned all our bombs in the sea because the target was covered with, covered with, covered with mist.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So you couldn’t drop them because there was civilian people in Le Havre.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So we jettisoned in the sea and that was the day that Glenn missing, Glenn missing went miller [laughs] Glenn Miller went missing.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Flying to the site of a new concert they were going to have.
HB: Oh right.
CM: He must have been, he must have been the most terrified man in the world to suddenly find you were flying over the North Sea just within a few miles of France and suddenly being bombed by, in the middle of the ocean, the middle of the North Sea by about five hundred bombers.
HB: Oh.
CM: The jettison area couldn’t, they couldn’t, they could have jettisoned by the city but civilians were there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was a terrible waste. And he must have thought what on earth is happening here?
HB: And that was, that was —
CM: The gunner from 90 squadron at Tuddenham he saw, he saw this little plane. Pioneer or some —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He saw it actually go in.
HB: Did he?
CM: So there’s no doubt about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The September. The bombing.
HB: Because that’s, that’s 5th 6th 8th of September. Yeah. And then you did an operation to Frankfurt.
CM: That’s right. A night.
HB: A night operation.
CM: We lost four aircraft on one flight on that raid. In that incident. Because it’s a city you see.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was Lloyd flying that. And then you did an attack. Oh, 28th of September you did an attack on Calais.
CM: That’s right.
HB: A German garrison.
CM: We could, we could actually see the airfield from where we were bombing it. And then we lost three aircraft on that raid. The Calais raid.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The fire. The 88 millimetre fire from, from Calais was so accurate that the aircraft was shot down within sight of their base.
HB: Oh no. Oh dear.
CM: So at Calais is hardly worth anyone going actually.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just shoot the bombs from the guns from Dover.
HB: Right.
CM: But I remember that as being very very fraught because it was a small target and there were five hundred bombers on it. It was absolutely bloody dangerous.
HB: So, I mean your last — it says in here your last operation with Johnny Lloyd was Wilhelmshaven.
CM: Wilhelmshaven. That’s right.
HB: Yeah. That was 5th of October. And then you did, you did some navigational training which was abandoned.
CM: Who was flying on the navigational training?
HB: That was Lloyd. That was Johnny Lloyd.
CM: Oh that’s —
HB: That was an abandoned exercise.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And then —
CM: Now, one of those trips wouldn’t be in my logbook because we didn’t get airborne but he suddenly decided he wasn’t going to go.
HB: Right. Because then you’ve got a you see where they’ve cut the logbook to fit this folder they’ve lost the actual first day. So it’s really early on in December and you’ve got Johnny Lloyd flying on a familiarisation with a Lancaster. Circuits and landings.
CM: That’s right. So it was only, it was when I was on Lancasters that we did the aborted trip on the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He went LMF.
HB: And then —
CM: So —
HB: And then within a couple of days you’ve got WO, Warrant Officer Hill.
CM: That’s right. Well, there you are you see. One didn’t fly and then you’ve got to get a new captain. Still, we never saw Johnny Lloyd again.
HB: Yeah.
CM: He just vanished off the face of the earth.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s what I say. All these things —
HB: On the time, on the date.
CM: All these things of the crew were hushed up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You don’t hear very much about but mostly it was never put down in black and white.
HB: On the day that, on the day that as you described it he went LMF. What, what happened on that day? Can you remember?
CM: Well, taking off as I believe about 2 o’clock on the afternoon. That’s right. And as I said the 149 Squadron which was with us at Methwold were coming on to the peri track this way and we, 218 were coming around this way. So the peri track was filled with aircraft converged on the runway here. Right. Well, so when we went into the runway on the right hand side we were blocking the runway. No one could take off. Then we started to backtrack slowly. Taff in such a state by the door I can’t imagine what it was like. Silence in the crew. Turns around in front of all this other aircraft, took aim [unclear] and off he went again. Exactly the same thing. [unclear] went straight in there and of course the commanding officer in the background weren’t having that. So anyway straight in. They came in the jeep at the foot of our aircraft and straight away, barking. Couldn’t move. And then, ‘Follow me.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: Before the jeep went back to dispersal.
HB: So, he was, he was sitting in the pilot’s seat.
CM: That’s right. He was —
HB: But he just couldn’t take off.
CM: That’s right. He just wouldn’t take off.
HB: He wouldn’t take off.
CM: He said he could but he didn’t want to. He realised I think that Good God, I’m going to be ruddy be killed on this operation. I’m not sufficiently good. I’ve overstretched my capabilities. And I’m not really, I should have taken more notice of [pause] I think he was worried he was going to make a mess of things.
HB: Right.
CM: This turmoil inside for some reason. I don’t know. Presumably —
HB: So you got back. You go in. You got back to this dispersal.
CM: We got back. He stayed in his seat. He says.
HB: Yeah.
CM: One of the commanding officers came running at the aircraft. He says, ‘Stay where you are. Stay where you are.’ And then he says, ‘Don’t anyone move. Leave the captain there and come out now.’ Stop what you’re doing. Just drop it. Come out.’ So we all trooped out and they had a whatsthename, jeep waggon came out. A little bus to take us back. And one of us said, ‘What’s going to happen to Johnny?’ You know. Because he was very popular you see. We loved him. Johnny Lloyd. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘He’ll be taken care of. Don’t you worry about that. Johnny’ll be taken care of.’ And we found out later that he’d ditched, within twenty four hours he’d left the station.
HB: Right.
CM: And within, ooh a few weeks we found he’d been turfed out of the Air Force.
HB: Right.
CM: He then went back to his place where he lived and he became destitute. That’s the story we found out later and he was ashamed of himself. Humiliated. His status as a captain and as a solicitor, it was the damned report, it was terrible. But then we found he’d, there’s a rumour that his family had gone off and sent him to Australia and he was doing his training as a solicitor. But the booze. The booze also took part in it this time.
HB: Oh right.
CM: And nothing went in there. In the erratic, an erratic state, to doomsday if you like. Just died in Australia.
HB: Oh, that’s a shame.
CM: I’ve still got — he gave me the book of poetry I’ve got down there somewhere. With his name in the front.
HB: Right.
CM: Johnny Lloyd. He was a very clever man. During the time we were there, the time we were hanging about. I’ll tell you about it. A chap who had been sent on leave to, to Ireland was court martialled and they want someone to take the case. And so Johnny said, ‘I’ve got nothing to do. I’ll take it.’ And he’d been sent on indefinite leave on this unit [unclear] To an escort unit. And he was sent on leave and they’d forgotten about him. They just kept on sending him a renewal of his leave and his money every fortnight. So of course he thought, well, the money’s coming in I must be on, still on indefinite leave.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Well, it lasted about two years this.
HB: Oh no.
CM: So anyway Johnny was, to cut an awful long story short he was, Johnny, he was a very good solicitor. Very good [unclear] He had the gift of the gab. A Welshman but a poetic Welshman.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And a solicitor. And he got, he got the chap off. It was the talk of the command.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Of 3 Group for a long time.
HB: Obviously, a well —
CM: Eloquent and [unclear] Put on a defence that they couldn’t penetrate. What could the man do? He was living in the neutral part of the, though he wasn’t in the war. He was there getting his regular payments and money and free meals and ration cards.
HB: Oh dear. Yeah.
CM: So he said what could he do? He must have been sickened. ‘I’m not doing the right thing but what can I do? If I go back now they’ll probably court martial me.’ Which is what they did when he did get back.
HB: So, Johnny. Johnny —
CM: So there you are. That’s an incidental.
HB: Yeah. No. No. No. It’s important. Johnny. Johnny. Johnny Lloyd was a popular man.
CM: Oh yes.
HB: Did you ever see him after the war?
CM: No.
HB: At all.
CM: Shirley and I —
HB: That was it.
CM: My wife and I went to this place of birth and every time we mentioned the word Johnny Lloyd everyone clamped up.
HB: Oh right.
CM: We got, we got the one chap who was at the boozer. The boozer. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: He knew Johnny and said he was a fine man but he said he didn’t get a job and he could be found on any any day any time on the street ends, ‘Can you give me sixpence for a cup of tea?’ But that’s a big blow to me as a chap who loved him. And Shirley who didn’t know, didn’t know him but to come across that sort of situation.
HB: Sad.
CM: So he went to Australia. Drank himself to death.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did go to his house because I think one of his relatives still lived there but they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t talk to us.
HB: No.
CM: And Shirley, my wife could charm the birds out of a tree but even her eloquence couldn’t do it.
HB: No. That’s a shame.
CM: So what I did, my duty by him. I wanted to find out what really happened but I failed. Well, I knew that what the end was.
HB: You say, you say failed. I think you probably did your best.
CM: I can take you and show you a photograph of Johnny Lloyd. My script is, my computer has been u/s but I’ve got a photograph of my crew. The crew I finished my tour with and the one that was with Hill. But this one here was done on the Stirlings when he first came to the squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: And it’s a very good photograph which was of Johnny —
HB: That’s, that’s alright. We’ll grab the, grab the photo in a minute.
CM: In a minute.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Oh, I was going to turn the computer on. You know when it comes up —
HB: Don’t, don’t worry about that.
CM: Ok.
HB: We’ll sort that. We’ll sort that in a minute because what I wanted, what I wanted to do was was to get through. You’ve got —
CM: Operations.
HB: You’ve now got —
CM: Operations. Yeah.
HB: Another pilot —
CM: Yes.
HB: That you’re getting to know and learn. Now, you said earlier to me before we started the recording he was an experienced pilot.
CM: Johnny. Yes. He was at, oh for two years at an airfield. An Advanced Flying Unit.
HB: Right.
CM: Flying Ansons.
HB: This was Hill?
CM: That’s right. That was Johnny. But that’s, that’s appeared in the book of course, but he was a well-known pilot.
HB: Right.
CM: He was an exhibitionist through the routine. Very good at it.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But he wasn’t meant for operations. Johnny. He was poetic. He’s like that famous Dylan Thomas.
HB: Sorry. That’s Johnny. That’s Johnny Lloyd is it?
Other: We’ve moved on.
HB: Yeah.
Other: From Johnny Lloyd, dad.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Eh?
Other: We’ve moved on from Johnny Lloyd.
CM: We’ve —
HB: Right. So, it’s Johnny. So, so Hill.
CM: Yeah. Well, Hill —
HB: We’ve now got him as the pilot.
CM: He was an experienced pilot from the Far East err the Middle East.
HB: The Middle East.
CM: He’d had a tour of operations on Wellingtons.
HB: Right.
CM: So, when we got him —
HB: What was, what was his first name, Kit?
CM: First name? Bill.
HB: Bill. So that’s Bill Hill.
CM: That’s right.
HB: And he’d come to you from the Middle East.
CM: Yeah. He’d been in this country some time actually.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But he wasn’t trained on Lancasters and when we got him he was just an ex-Wellington pilot. And then we went to, through the, he did the Lancaster finishing course there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Change of direction with Bill Hill. Then back with, back to my old squadron again.
HB: And —
CM: 218.
HB: And really really quite quickly he’s in to an operation.
CM: That’s right. Because he was experienced.
HB: On New Year’s Eve 1944 to Vohwinkel, in the Ruhr Valley.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Wow. And you obviously, and then, and then you had to go, you did that in the daytime and then you had to go back and do it in the night time.
CM: That’s right. I remember that one.
HB: Blimey. And that, that’s yeah. You’re then really then in to doing quite a few of these operations.
CM: That’s right. That’s when, that’s when my tour really started, because —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Johnny sorry Bill Hill was determined to get through a tour. He wanted to do it as quickly as possible.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Yeah. He was a good.
HB: Well, he’s got a good team.
CM: He was an excellent pilot. He was an ex-deputy headmaster and he was only about twenty five.
HB: Oh right.
CM: He was a clever lad.
HB: Yeah.
CM: He used to do comic turns as well on the stage.
HB: Did he?
CM: Oh yes. And in the air. He keep coming back from operations Johnny err Bill, Bill Hill was witty with us all together. And also on Dresden I remember he said to me, he said, ‘Wireless operator.’ I said, ‘Yes, captain.’ He said, ‘Do you want to see a, see a sight you’ll never ever see in your life ever again?’ I said, ‘Well, yes.’ He said, ‘Well, just get in the astrodome and have a look down. Down stairs. Dresden.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was too. I’ve never seen anything. The first thing I saw when I was in the astrodome was smoke. Something you hadn’t even heard of. Smoke from the burning city coming past the aeroplane. But you could see the [unclear] of streets burning ferociously.
HB: What height would you be at there?
CM: Oh about twenty thousand feet.
HB: About twenty. Yeah.
CM: It varied twenty, between twenty one, twenty two, twenty three. It could be fifty feet.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was so that you wouldn’t — to lessen the risk of collision over the target.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because all the aircraft coming in on the markers from all directions, you know. Coming in.
HB: So you were at twenty thousand feet and you’re actually flying through the smoke.
CM: Yeah.
HB: From Dresden.
CM: So the smoke was so intense. The wooden mostly, part of the really beautiful buildings the wooden buildings were quite inflammable and they were set alight. And there it was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Start the whole firestorm as they called it.
HB: Can you, can you remember what they told you on the briefing for Dresden?
CM: Yes. They said there were people in the town, the troops concentrating in the town. They said, not only that but not only ball bearings but some things very important mechanisms to further the war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Radar and all sorts of things they had scattered all over Dresden. All sorts of other things. Now, our enemies are saying well it was a quiet town. It didn’t do anything at all. It wasn’t. It was very well armed but they didn’t have any, this late in the war all the guns had been taken away because the Germans thought oh they’re going to leave Dresden alone because it’s a wonderful city. They’re good that they, because that business with Churchill started off and Dresden, Chemnitz and Berlin and all these taken at this, we wrecked them all. Dresden was wrecked in one raid.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Eight hundred and fifty bombers.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just saturation. It’s in there I think, is Dresden.
HB: Yes, yes. Yeah. I’ve got —
CM: Nine hours fifty minutes.
HB: Yeah. It’s got, it’s got marked in your book here. Dresden. Saturation raid. And Chemnitz.
CM: Yeah. Next day there wasn’t such a good raid because the weather was bad.
HB: Yeah. I’m just going to check because I think. I’m not sure about the batteries on this. Oh no, we’re alright for a minute.
Other: Dad.
HB: Alright for a minute.
Other: Would you like me to make you another cup of tea?
CM: Ask Mr, Mr Hartley. I presume you’d prefer to be called Harry.
HB: Harry.
CM: Harry.
Other: Harry would you like —
CM: In Geordieland you would be called called Harry Hartley.
Other: Daddy, would you like me to make you a cup of tea?
CM: Yes, dear. It’ll freshen up the one that.
Other: I’ll make you a fresh one.
HB: Right. So —
CM: I told you that was the thoughtful one, didn’t I?
HB: Yeah.
CM: She’s the more thoughtful one.
Other: Dad faces us off against each other as you’ve probably realised.
HB: Oh, I gathered that [laughs]
Other: Yeah.
HB: Right. So, yeah. So, we’ve got, he’s certainly rattling through the operations here because you’re, you’re talking for, this is February 1st 3rd 9th 13th 14th 18th 19th 23.
CM: That’s right. That was —
HB: And that’s operations every two or three days isn’t it?
CM: That’s right. That’s right.
HB: Right. And and that, so I mean that’s how it goes through to April ’45.
CM: Well, there you can see the tour, the tour expired citation. Can you see that? Tour expired.
HB: Hang on.
CM: It would be in the last few pages of my logbook.
HB: Yeah. First operational tour completed.
CM: That’s it.
HB: 9th of April.
CM: Just got to put a tour in before the end of the war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because I was still, I was very young you know Mr Hartley. I was always, I wasn’t a kind of a middle aged old bastard. [laughs]
HB: Oh no. No.
CM: I was quite youthful.
HB: Oh no [laughs] I mean, I mean you were born in ’22.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And you’ve gone in there at what? Nineteen? Twenty?
CM: That’s right. That’s right. Nineteen.
HB: Nineteen. Right. And, and —
CM: I joined —
HB: Then you finished, you finished your tour there and —
CM: Kiel. It’s on the top of the —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Your last one was Kiel.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Naval, the naval arsenal.
CM: And on that raid there’s the battle cruiser, German pocket battleship. The last one that was [unclear]. We sank that on that raid. It was moored in the Kiel Harbour. It was moored at the side of the quay and it turned over.
HB: Oh right.
CM: As well as other members of the Bomber Command which were much more [unclear] than me. They sank the Tirpitz in Trondheim harbour. It wasn’t me that did that.
HB: No
CM: But Bomber Command sank more battleships than the Navy.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It’s incredible that when you think of it.
HB: That’s amazing that. Right. So we’ve got — we’ve now gone to 90 Squadron at Tuddenham.
CM: Tuddenham. Yeah.
HB: But before we get there. Right. We were talking about girlfriends earlier on.
CM: Girlfriends. Not Tuddenham.
HB: We were talking about entertainment and dances and all this sort of business and this carry on.
CM: Scandals.
HB: No. No. No. I’m not after, I’m not after scandals.
CM: They’re not scandals.
HB: I’m not after scandals at all but if you want to tell me any scandals I’ll talk to you.
CM: There weren’t many scandals.
HB: But did you actually, looking at the picture on the wall you obviously met your wife during the war.
CM: No.
HB: No.
CM: No. I married my wife just after the war. My first wife.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And —
HB: And did you meet, did you meet your wife during the war?
CM: No. She was a girlfriend from home.
CM: Right.
HB: Jean Smith. Unfortunately, we were married for about, only about three or four months she became pregnant.
HB: Right.
CM: And about a few months after that she had a miscarriage and she had, she contracted tuberculosis. Galloping tuberculosis and within six weeks we knew she was going to die.
HB: Oh no.
CM: Just this, this galloping thing. You couldn’t. Just a few months after that they found a cure for tuberculosis. Even this severe one that Jean had. But it was too late for her.
HB: Was that when —
CM: She went down just like I’m doing, it happened to have, no matter what I eat I can still lose weight.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Just lose weight. But that’s the same with poor Jean no matter what she ate she turned in to a shadow and just faded away.
HB: And what, when was that? What —?
CM: That was in ’46 I think, really.
HB: 1946.
CM: Because I’d, I’d left the Air Force by then but I didn’t stay left because as soon as Jean died I thought well what the hell do I do? Going back to the steelworks. Three shift system, you know. I think I’ll go back there. I was very happy in the Air Force. So my father said well Jean I’m afraid that we weren’t going to keep her long like. So I wasn’t long in the when I left the Air Force I was sent home, you know, and she just died. So she died and I wasn’t the sort of man to hang around of course and I started going out before I met Shirley. My beloved wife. My really beloved wife. Married fifty seven years. Two children. And a beauty. Look at that photograph on your right hand side.
HB: Oh yes. I’ve, I’ve already seen the photos. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And you see that on the wedding photograph I haven’t got the common sense to hold my wife by the hand. I said why couldn’t it, to anybody that sees that now, ‘Oh, you made a mess of that Kit lad.’ I said, ‘Why didn’t the photographer say for Christ’s sake. Hold your wife by the hand.’ Not hold your belt by the hand. But they didn’t. Now, if I’d been a photographer I think I would have said, ‘Hold your wife by the hand.’ Certain things, certain trades must do that’s to make sure that the pose is right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: However, it’s nice. You see my wife. She was only eighteen then.
HB: So where did you meet Shirley?
CM: Grimsby. I was stationed at Binbrook.
HB: Right.
CM: I figured out that for over five years I was in two Bomber Command squadrons.
HB: Right.
CM: 12 and 101.
HB: Right. Right. So, so when we’re, so let’s just go back to 218. You’re in 218.
CM: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: You’re based at Woolfox Lodge.
CM: Well, when tour expired the crew left. All the crew. Leaving me behind because I had just been promoted to warrant officer. They wanted a warrant officer to take charge of the parachute section. So they left me behind. And they said also, ‘You’ve done a few trips less than your crew. Therefore, you’ll be available for a spare.’
HB: Right.
CM: So I was, so I was a new warrant officer and I was still on the squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: Which had the parachute section.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I had to pack that in deliberately because the chap in charge of the parachute section, genuinely head of the section itself came to me. He said, ‘Mac,’ I didn’t let the fact that he’d missed out the sir because I was a warrant officer by then. And he said, ‘They’ve got fifty parachutes not on inventory.’ Right. I said, ‘Yes,’ knowing what was coming. He said, ‘Well, if they’re not on the inventory they don’t belong to anyone.’ He said, ‘We could make ourselves a little bit of money here.’ I got a cold, I remember feeling a cold feeling. I’ve gone through a tour of operations. I’ve risked my life and I never knew, knowing the McVickers luck I was going to be found out before I could say one word I was going to be found out. So, I said, ‘No. I want nothing to do with this,’ and I went straight from there to my commanding officer at the station, not the station commander the one that’s responsible, and said, ‘I have a problem sir.’ He said, ‘What is it?’ I said, ‘It’s very personal sir but it’s taken me a long time to think about this.’ He said, ‘You’ve got, I think you’ve told me this you’d better get on with it. And I said, ‘My flight sergeant, he wants me to do a, about the inventory.’ I said, ‘I want absolutely nothing to do with it.’ He said, ‘You’ve done the right thing.’
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: ‘You’ve done the right thing.’ And all that’s happened as far as I know he was just taken off. Taken off. Was posted.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I’ve shared this because I felt very guilty about this. He said, ‘It’s your duty to do that.’ So that was a bit of guilt in my life.
HB: Yeah.
CM: However, it is. It is. It was the right thing to do. If I’d been involved I would have lost my whole career on operations. All the medals would have [makes noise] you know.
HB: Yeah. Everything.
CM: So anyway I I don’t know whether that would figure in your synopsis but they’d say, ‘Was he a nice chap?’ ‘No, in all my years he was a bastard after all.’ You know.
HB: No. No. No. No. What, I mean what obviously what you’re now telling me is, is this is, this is at the end of the war and there’s big, obviously a big change of attitudes.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Now. So, and and you’re posted out to Conversion Units and you, and you eventually end up at Binbrook.
CM: That’s right.
HB: As a warrant officer there. And I mean there you’ve, it’s still very intensive. Even in 1947 you’re still flying. Flying an awful lot.
CM: Oh, that’s right. Flying was there. That was still a bomber squadron.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In fact I used to say to Mike Chalk my friend, he said, ‘We’re the only two buggers that, we’re the only two wireless operators left on the squadron.’ I said, ‘We can’t be operational.’ Then the Korean war came up and we had, we had not only Binbrook but all the crews there were no more than you could purpose with four or five to crew. Couldn’t make up proper crews.
HB: Oh right.
CM: So, by this time they started the new ranks. I don’t know if you know anything about this. Because this is something that should be very interesting to you. What happened immediately after the war. If you look at this photograph here.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Take a little look standing up, Harry.
HB: Oh no, I’ve seen that one.
CM: And what do you see on the arm of your favourite flight sergeant? By that time ranks had changed and I was, can you see that rank?
HB: That’s. Is that, is that the change to master.
CM: No. That was the master. That was signaller 1. Three. Three stars and a crown.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, that was the same as flight sergeant. I’d been reduced to flight sergeant anyway so they reduced me even further to signaller 1 which was the same as a flight sergeant. So anyway, it resulted in a mass exodus.
HB: Right.
CM: Of people. Some of the officers had been given a commission by an interview and there they were walking around. Didn’t touch them at all.
HB: Right.
CM: So people got fed up with this because there were still more NCOs than officers and of course they were leaving in droves. The next we knew that’d, just over two years and the next thing we knew was revert. Take the stripes off, take the stars off, revert back to whatsaname, whatever that indicated. And in my case it was flight sergeant so put flight sergeant stripes on. Same as there.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So —
HB: Got one there.
CM: Not many people know about this.
HB: No. No.
CM: At the same time it’s a very important aspect of Bomber Command after the war. Not only Bomber Command but all the Commands.
HB: Yeah. Yes.
CM: All aircrew. The NCOs were given a kick in the teeth and shat on from a very great height.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Now, they recognise that there’s been that but they promised there’d be recognised, all that they should be kept the aircrew separate from the sergeants but it was good that way but what we sort of did was the complete dislocation of all the squadrons of Bomber Command. They didn’t have, they didn’t have a Bomber Command.
HB: No.
CM: By this. Not very much talked about that but I can show you letters I’ve written there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: About this.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I think this is relevant.
HB: It is. It’s all, it’s all relevant. It is all relevant.
CM: You didn’t know about this and yet you’re an interviewer.
HB: No.
CM: You can see it there.
HB: No.
CM: Passed the —
HB: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Because it was only because I had certificate that I was married. Jean. You’ve seen Jane.
HB: Yeah.
CM: My other daughter. That’s her as a baby. That’s in —
HB: So that so that, that’s occurring as the Korean war’s —
CM: That’s right.
HB: Brewing up.
CM: Though Bomber Command wasn’t involved at all in the Korean war.
HB: No. No.
CM: Because they couldn’t be. They didn’t have enough crews. Now, you see that must have hit the people who organised this. It must have hit them with a hell of a wallop. They were responsible for the absolute the demolition of one of the most powerful weapons known to history. The Bomber Command was as you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Far bigger than the American Air Force in, in its numbers. And don’t forget they made big mistakes, the Americans at the beginning of the war. They thought they could fight the fighters off. They couldn’t.
HB: No.
CM: They shot a lot of fighters down but they couldn’t fight them off.
HB: No.
CM: They lost fifty aircraft, fifty each on two of the ball bearing plants at Schweinfurt.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s a hundred and twenty aircraft. No. A hundred aircraft. A hundred aircraft.
HB: Yeah.
CM: These B17s. There were only them that you can recognise and of course Bomber Command and I think my God and they introduced this new rank and they all kept going out in droves and asking to get premature release. We’ve destroyed a really good Air Force. That, that is never talked about.
HB: No.
CM: But I talked about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I wrote a letter [unclear] a student.
HB: Yeah.
CM: You’ll have to come again. I put it all down in black and white.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I’ll show it to you. You might, you might create a, Mr Hartley what’s known as a coup.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Because nobody else knows about it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And I’ll show you something and you might think after all you must have the better interviewing technique. You speak with posh language but you didn’t get this information.
HB: No. No. That’s true.
CM: You flashed a photograph of me out in my, in my James Bond days. I was auditioning for James Bond [laughs] You see.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Things are made in —
HB: Was this occurring after you’d gone to the instructor’s school? Or before?
CM: It was, it happened if you look at my logbook it says it should be ‘47.
HB: So I’ve got you going, I’ve got you going to Scampton in July ’47.
CM: That’s right. I was on detachment there.
HB: On Lincolns.
CM: That’s right. Because all the Bomber Command was on, at Binbrook.
CM: All Lincolns.
HB: Yeah.
CM: All Lincolns.
HB: And so was, so the time you’re talking about when they decimated the NCO level.
CM: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Is that before ’47 or after?
CM: Well, it was 1948.
HB: Oh right. Right.
CM: I was married in ’48 look at the bit.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Even though I’m wearing a, what’s, look carefully a warrant officer’s uniform right. If you look carefully you can just see the badge.
HB: Yeah. With the circle.
CM: But we were allowed to wear the officer’s uniform because at that time there was a hell of a shortage of uniforms.
HB: Oh right.
CM: And just keep on wearing it until as soon as we get new uniform. So there we were parading around as warrant officers even though we weren’t. And eventually we had to have the warrant officers tapes off and put the whatsanames on, but that was very humiliating you know Harry.
HB: Yes, I can imagine.
CM: And just you remember especially the warrant officer suddenly got bumped to sergeant’s stripes. Stars instead of stripes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was just humiliating in the extreme. There was a tremendous amount of ill hateful feeling about it in the squadrons. They detested the officer who kept the, nobody who kept their own rank.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And at the same, they graduated as officers, they graduated as, but the same, exactly the same training. Exactly the same job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yet they were left alone.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that of course that led to tremendous resentment.
HB: Yes, I can imagine.
CM: But regardless of what happens in this interview I will dig out certainly this for your own personal viewing.
HB: Yeah. Oh, I’d be, no, I’d be, I’ll be interested in that. I’ve got a — I don’t know if I’ve read this right. I’ve got you here in your book. In your, in your logbook at number 100 Torpedo Bomber Squadron, Hemswell.
CM: That’s right. That was the squadron when I came and joined the Air Force. I was posted to Hemswell. Hemswell was.
HB: Is this when you, when you rejoined?
CM: When I rejoined the Air Force.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And that was August. I’ve got August ‘47.
CM: ’47 would be.
HB: August ‘47 for that. Yeah. And then it goes. And then it goes through. Were you instructing there?
CM: No. At Binbrook, no. I was a —
HB: No. At Hemswell.
CM: At Hemswell.
HB: With the torpedo bombers.
CM: That was a detachment, I think. No. That was at, this was what was the squadron name at the top?
HB: It just says number 100 torpedo bomber squadron.
CM: That’s right. That’s right. That’s Hemswell.
HB: At Hemswell.
CM: I was just attached to the squadron. Binbrook was being resurfaced.
HB: Ah right. Right. That — yeah. Yeah. Because then you returned to Binbrook.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah. I see what you, I see what that, I see what that does. So you’ve come through to ‘47 ’48.
CM: That’s right. Yeah.
HB: And you’ve gone to 12, 12 Squadron.
CM: 12. That’s right. Famous squadron.
HB: At Binbrook.
CM: VCs. The VCs were the two men who sacrificed their lives at the bridges at the invasion. You know, they bombed the bridges and both were killed, attacking success of one of those bridges and they both got VCs. But they’re all [unclear] the Fairey Battle this was.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: At the beginning of the war. But the airman that was flying with them wasn’t a sergeant. He was an LAC so the thing is this. The argument that he was an LAC. Therefore he wasn’t entitled to a DFC but as a LAC he wasn’t entitled but also quite obviously to the DFM which the two sergeants had got. The VC, sorry the two sergeants had got. He got nothing, but the LAC was doing the exactly the same job as the pilot and the navigator who got, two got VCs. They couldn’t leave him out and isolate as if he’d done nothing. God knows what acts of bravery he would have done, but they didn’t. They just a little kind of, little bit of [unclear ] but they got VCs and he got nothing at all. That was quite a bit, that was at 12 Squadron. That was a squadron to which I belonged at that time. The chap called Norris [unclear] and on Pampas and Seaweeds.
HB: Yeah.
CM: We did, did a lot of Mousetrap trips on those squadrons
HB: Yeah. I noticed. I noticed that in your —
CM: Pampas.
HB: Operation Pampas. Yeah.
CM: And on one of those trips we met the Queen Mary in 17 degrees west and Nogger said, he said to the crew, ‘This a chance I wouldn’t miss for a thousand years.’ A thousand pounds. I’m not sure which. I think it was pounds. And we said, ‘Yes, Nogger,’ because we were all in awe of him. He was a skilful pilot.
HB: Which, which was he?
CM: We did an exhibition of flying to the occupants of the Queen Mary that they’d never seen in their life. Much better than you’d ever see in the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: He did everything.
HB: Was his name Norris?
CM: Nogger Norris. Yeah.
HB: Nogger Norris.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: And I took a photograph of the Queen Mary but it was taken with my father in law’s box brownie camera. So, it was, even though I was pretty close to it it looks as though it was farther away.
HB: Yes. Yeah.
CM: But when we took the photograph with one of these alongside, Giles the cartoonist was on board the Queen Mary. Right.
HB: Right.
CM: He was on board.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And he, and Giles saw this, he saw this going on. This kind of shooting up. And he drew a cartoon of it and on the cartoon you could see the Lincoln aircraft 17 degrees west shooting up very close to the Queen Mary. In caricature. In drawing.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So, we didn’t know about that. So when we got back after all this shooting up and God knows what. I lost my trailing aerial as well. Is it in the book?
HB: There’s a thing in here. It just says trailing aerial struck by lightning.
CM: Do you see how many hours it is?
HB: Eight hours thirty five.
CM: Eight hours.
HB: Yeah.
CM: All through the Pampas you’ll see they’re all about six hours. So, the captain —
HB: Yeah.
CM: We came back late wanted to know exactly where we’d been for the two hours that’s missing. So Nogger Norris knowing this, before we landed said, ‘Don’t forget chaps. We haven’t seen the Queen Mary. Ok.’ So, when we landed we kept our buzz. A good crew. We kept it mum.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So the first thing that happened was the flight sergeant in charge of the ground staff got Nogger and [unclear] over to see the where my aerial left the aircraft. And my aerial left the aircraft, came down the, fair lead from the reel, down where we sat through the hole in the bottom of the aircraft and about three or four inches down at the fuselage it had welded itself onto the side of the fuselage about nine feet. It was nine feet along the fuselage, just up the fuselage, welded and beyond that there was a little nidge of about an inch and a half sticking up and it was beautifully rounded at the end. And the flight sergeant said to Nogger and I, he said, ‘That takes a bit of power to do that.’ To do that.
CM: Yeah.
CM: It takes a few volts to do that.’
CM: Yeah.
CM: I thought, Christ almighty all those millions of volts within two feet of my Charlie.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So, anyway it was interesting at nine o’clock the following Monday morning. This was a Friday night, Friday morning. The commanding officer [unclear] there, Nogger there and me here and the other navigator Chuck. I can’t remember his name now. It’s a terrible thing. Those names would have come easily six years ago.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: And just as he started I was right though about these missing two hours. And suddenly the shutters opened at the back and the adjutant popped his head through. He said, ‘Sir. Sir.’ He said, ‘Adj, I told I wasn’t to be disturbed for the next, the next hour.’ He said, ‘I think you’d like being disturbed by what I’ve got to show you.’ So, he said, ‘What is it? What is it?’ So the Adj took something in from the fellas and said give it to the commanding officer. And [unclear] remembered stern faced [pause] And I saw his face changing from stern to kind of a little smile at the edge of his face. And eventually [laughs]
HB: Yeah.
CM: He said, ‘Nogger,’ gave him the papers, ‘I know exactly what you were doing for those two hours.’ And of course it ended up with laughter. Because no harm had been done.
HB: No.
CM: And there was the, Giles with his family aboard the, the Queen Mary and on the side of the ship you see a beautiful sketch of the our aircraft. Can you believe that?
HB: I can. I can believe it.
CM: I cut it out, put it in my logbook and it rotted for the next twenty years. and just rotted away. And when we decided to put these down, these things down in print I realised that I didn’t have this. Now all my family, all my, have you seen them, have you seen them?
HB: Yeah.
CM: And others as well have tried to get copies of that. It’s not, it’s not to be got. Even the people getting back, the back, the numbers of the aircraft, of the Daily Express.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: It wasn’t there either. But Fiona looked up my career in the Air Force list as a warrant officer in the air force list she found it wasn’t listed and it said not to be released until 2022.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be, it’ll be in the Official Secrets Act.
CM: So, so because that’s nothing to do with the Queen Mary. It also stopped me from having any contact with other things attached to that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So that I didn’t get it. Peter particularly at the museum museum archives but they couldn’t get that.
HB: No.
CM: But somebody’s got it. So I couldn’t make a proper story about it because I didn’t have the proof. Because people would say, ‘Oh yes, I’ve seen that. Oh yes. Indeed.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: But that was it.
HB: So then.
CM: I’m listening.
HB: We get to 1949 and we’re off to shorts.
Shorts and topi and off to the sunshine in Egypt.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Was that, what was —
CM: Shallufa. Then we went there and Bomber Command went there after the war. For a month every, like six or seven months I was there. Eight or nine months.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The desert was good weather. It was good flying weather.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s what was good. That’s what we went for. Took off from Shallufa and we did El Shatt. I always thought that couldn’t be the proper name. El Shatt. E L S H A T T. El Shatt. I was ashamed of putting it in my logbook [laughs] Bombing range.
HB: And yeah like you say just there for a few months and then you know what what accommodation did you live in in Egypt then? For those few months.
CM: Nissen. Nissen.
HB: In the Nissen hut.
CM: Well, the Nissen was corrugated iron. They were small.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Plenty of wood there and that sort of stuff.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. And then you’re back to —
CM: Don’t forget that Shallufa in the winter was colder. It was colder in Shallufa than it was in Binbrook.
HB: Yeah. I can, oh I can believe that. Yeah.
CM: By God, I’ve experienced some cold. Literally shivered. And shivered all night.
HB: Yeah.
CB: Couldn’t get warm.
HB: And you’re back to Binbrook.
CM: That’s right. Detachment you see.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] 12 Squadron detachment and 101 Squadron detachment.
HB: And then [pause] this is where the change comes isn’t it? In 1949. Because you go to Scampton on a Conversion Unit.
CM: Scampton. That’s right.
HB: And then. And then you go to 101. Binbrook.
CM: That’s right. I went back to Scampton because that was the Lancaster Finishing School then.
HB: Right.
CM: Right. So, that led to the —
HB: Yeah. Oh. Yeah. You did say. You did say that. Sorry I just need to keep checking this. The batteries.
CM: They won’t be able to understand a word I’ve said, Harry.
HB: Well I can understand you and that’s all that’s all, that’s all that’s important.
CM: You’re nearly a, you’re nearly a Geordie yourself.
Other: Dad.
CM: Yes, dear.
Other: In ten minutes I’ve got, I’ve got an appointment.
CM: Fiona, darling, I thought you’d gone. Didn’t you think she’d gone, Harry?
Other: No. I’m sitting here but in ten minutes I’m going to have to go because I’ve got an appointment in Ashby at 2. So I’ll go on my appointment.
CM: That’s right.
Other: It’s just, it’s just the flats.
CM: Make sure Harry’s alright. A glass of whisky maybe.
Other: Can I get you anything at all, Harry?
HB: No. No. I’m fine. I’m fine.
Other: Would you like another drink?
HB: As long, as long, as long as Kit is alright.
Other: He’s got his cup of tea. Dad has his lunch at —
CM: The only thing that’s wrong with me is ninety five [unclear]
Other: Dad has his breakfast really late like, you know sort of late late so he has his meal, his lunch sort of often about 4.30. So he’s —
CM: Oh yes. That’s it.
Other: But, so I will come back, dad after I’ve done my appointment.
CM: Yeah. Ok.
Other: My son is wanting to buy a flat in Ashby.
CM: Right.
Other: And we’ve got an appointment to look around it with him.
HB: Right.
Other: Just to see what we think. And we cancelled it yesterday because we got stuck in traffic. So I’ll go.
HB: Well, what, what I’ll probably do is.
Other: I’ll come back.
HB: I’ll finish the interview and then I’ll contact you later and let you know how we’re going to come back.
CM: That’s right. I said to —
Other: You’re most welcome if you think you —
CM: Fiona said, ‘Oh he won’t, he’s not interested at all in what you did after the war. He’s not interested in,’ this and that. And I said, ‘You don’t know what he’s interested in until he comes.’ I thought about this because that is something that I think is very, that people should know about.
HB: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Other: It’s an interesting one.
CM: The dirty trick that the Bomber Command well not just bomber but the Air Force generally.
HB: But it, it’s that transition period we are also interested in.
Other: Yes.
HB: Because we’re going from a time of world war.
Other: Yeah. Conflicts.
CM: That’s right
HB: Into a peacetime and policing operations.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Of, you know Korea and all those.
CM: That’s one of the reasons why we never got the medals. Can’t you see that. We can’t demote them, treat them as S H I T and then kind of go we’ll give them medals as well.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Couldn’t do it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So that was what the fuss was about. We didn’t. We were not even honoured in Bomber Command.
HB: Yeah. Well, it’s a quarter past one. I’m going to just stop the tape for a minute while —
CM: Ok.
HB: Your daughter goes.
HB: And then I’ll restart it in a —
Other: And if you wish —
[recording paused]
HB: Right. We’re recommencing the interview. We have had cups of tea and a comfort breaks. So we’ve moved on now to around about 1952 at RAF Watton in 192 Squadron.
CM: Central. Central Signals Establishment to use its full name.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s to mask what it actually did. It was a spy squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: But Central Signals Establishment gave it a kind of fancy name but [unclear] believe anything if you like. Not a hundred percent anyway.
HB: That might, that might answer the question. In your logbook you’re flying with Flight Lieutenant Neil.
CM: Yeah. Flight lieutenant. He was, that was on Super Fortresses. In other words B29s.
HB: B29s.
CM: I’m an ex, an ex-Boeing B29 wireless operator.
HB: Yeah. Were they called Washingtons?
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The Washington was an American name for an American aircraft.
HB: Right.
CM: But we called them Washingtons. American but it was also British.
HB: Right.
CM: So there was a Washington [unclear] married them both together.
HB: So in your logbook it says your duty on [pause] in at the end of 1952 was left scanner and right scanner and special operator.
CM: Spec op. That’s what you called spec ops because you did this job I was telling you about. I don’t know whether I’ll be shot at dawn about this but it’s still secret. Top secret. But it was literally finding out the frequencies of the radars and the special operations. We did that. Once we got that we could be able to jam it. To jam it. And once you knew where the frequency was on the end of the spectrum you could put a jam in there and make it impossible to operate.
HB: So who’s, who’s radars were you trying to discover?
CM: Yeah. But I don’t know how you can’t mention that without breaking the Official Secrets.
HB: You won’t break the Official Secrets Act now.
CM: Yeah. As I said in this Fiona found out that nothing’s to be divulged about me personally in the Air Force until 2022. My hundredth birthday. So you make that of what you will.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But the B29 as I say were a joy to fly after Lincolns. We used to, we used Lincolns to Watton before that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But the B29 was a luxurious aircraft. Do you know that it was separated by a tunnel? There’s the front end of the aircraft right the co-pilot, the captain and the engineer and all this but the back end of the aircraft was nothing else but spec ops. Right.
HB: Right.
CM: And the whole thing was connected like, like two bellows. The front bit was pressurised. There was a tunnel going over the bomb bay to the rear compartment. So to get from the front to the rear they crawled along the tunnel.
HB: Oh right.
CM: It was from here to well just beyond the window there you know.
HB: So you’re talking —
CM: No bigger. No bigger than that wide.
HB: So you’re talking a good twelve fourteen feet then of tunnel.
CM: That’s right. So getting there hurt your knees crawling up and down so people didn’t tend to go forward. Anyway, the two people at the back were about that stationed from the observer point.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s the back end of the tunnel. To see, to be able to see the engines, all the engines, the flaps. Right. And the undercarriage. They couldn’t see them from the front.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Even the engineer. So I was the left scanner and right scanner but the eyes for the engineer who couldn’t keep on crawling back and forwards along the tunnel.
HB: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So important.
HB: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I always went for the right scanner because I felt that it was the one place to be to keep a good lookout for the —
HB: Right.
CM: And sway up and down left scanner, right scanner. Otherwise it would be, you couldn’t put spec op. You could be spec op, yes. But on transit you were just kind of sat sitting. You used to fly from Watton to Nicosia in Cyprus and then fly from there the next day with all these aerials. There was an armed guard when we landed in Nicosia and the aircraft was never ever left alone. And the next day we would take off with the full crew of course and the trip would be about, we’d be down there eleven hours, twelve hours doing nothing else but scanning all the frequencies. Picking up their radars. You had to be very lucky because they knew when there was spy aircraft around. They’d switch off. But they had to switch on to see where that spy aircraft was. So watching out all ready to go because it only took a few seconds. It was on. You recognised it. You’d press a button. The camera would take a photograph.
HB: Right.
CM: So I scanned the photograph and the recording and did this virtually the same thing as sitting at home and doing this thing with you, because as we were doing that the recording, they’d take it back to Watton and you’d see it properly. You didn’t see it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: They had —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Yeah. Boffins.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Boffins. Whatever they are.
HB: Yeah. The boffins.
CM: Boffins.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it was an important job and I think I was part of the Cold War as well as the hot war. So that should —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Be a footnote of that thing that I said. Mr McVickers bravely advanced for the, to be a spec op and took part in the Cold War. Which I did.
HB: Well that’s right. I mean, I mean it’s, it’s very obvious from your logbook that —
CM: I’m a lying bastard.
HB: No. Oh, no. No. No. No. Nowhere near. No. You’ve certainly, you’ve certainly done a bit. I mean there’s, there’s a section here that’s quite fascinating because in the middle of doing your spec ops and whatnot you go to the School of Marine Reconnaissance.
CM: No. No. That was when I was posted there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So when you’re posted you’re still kind of doing whatever you were doing beforehand.
HB: Right.
CM: They sometimes overlapped a bit before you went and it’s doing middle of the road.
HB: Yeah.
CM: A flew flights, you know. That’s what it amounts to.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The School of Maritime Reconnaissance now.
HB: Yes.
CM: The Royal Air Force, St Mawgan, Newquay, Cornwall. It should be on top of the whatsthename —
HB: Yeah.
CM: That was, that was a five months course. Now within, after doing four months to start the flying phase of it the CO sent for me and said they were very very short of flyers at 224 Squadron. I said, ‘What do you mean, sir?’ He said, ‘They desperately need a signaller.’ And I said, ‘I really am not the person to pick. I’ve been off the flying for five years. I’ve done no flying on this and I’m on a course. I’m on a [unclear] aircraft radar work at all.’ ‘Nevertheless,’ he said, ‘You can, with all your experience could pick it up with no trouble at all.’ That wasn’t true. When I got to 224 Squadron which was down there if you looked at 224 squadron —
HB: I’ve got 22 —
CM: Not 224.
HB: I’ve got 220.
CM: That’s the one. 220 Squadron.
HB: 220 Squadron.
CM: 220 Squadron.
HB: Yeah. St Eval.
CM: St Eval.
HB: St Eval.
CM: And that’s —
HB: That was on Shackletons.
CM: Well, within, within about a fortnight they realised that I wasn’t trained on the radar and the radar was the most important thing. I wasn’t trained on it. So I thought — I was in a hell of a state. And I told the commanding officer that I’m really not trained for this work. But I’ve just been sent. I’d no idea at all why I was sent there because Cornish the commanding officer said to me, ‘We don’t need you. We don’t need any training chaps, we’re fully, fully committed.’ So I thought what the hell is going on here?
HB: Yeah.
CM: I think, now during the time I was there they sent me to to Mount Batten. Now Mount Batten was the headquarters of Coastal Command. And I was replacing a man who was doing Anson flying. Supposed to be an instructor. A very important instructor flying from station to station and everything. And the man had gone sick for something. Obviously transitory. But when I appeared on the scene he suddenly made a remarkable recovery.
HB: Right.
CM: So I was stuck there at Mount Batten [unclear] let’s get it right here because Mount Batten is the commanding. This is the most important place in Coastal Command. Why don’t you use that to do something for yourself? So I went to see the postings department which posted all the people in Coastal Command. Everything was done from there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I flannelled one of the, with the WAAF officers who were there. I said I’m in a bit of a dilemma here Miss, Ma’am and explained what had happened and everything, ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘I think we can probably do something for you. What would you like to do?’ So I said, ‘Well, there’s one Neptune station dealing with nothing else but Neptunes. Lockheed Neptunes.’ I said, ‘This is based in Topcliffe in Yorkshire and would be ideal for me for getting home and everything else and also picking up, because I’d been on a course, picking up on what had left out in being mid-course. ’I said ‘Perfect solution, She said. She said to me ‘Your next course. I’ll put your name down. I’ll put your name down now. So it’s finished. Nothing has happened. You go.’
HB: Right.
CM: So when I went back to the station. St Eval. 220 Squadron. I could say to the people I’m posted. You know. I obviously shouldn’t have been here in the first place. I’ve been reposted. So I was gash again. I was completely gash. And I just spent my time sitting in the mess and making myself a bloody nuisance where ever I went, you know. And soon enough, as soon as the [unclear] came up I got the posting off to go to Kinloss to do the Neptune course.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was on Neptunes for two and a half years. The best aircraft I’ve ever flown in my life.
HB: And what was, what was the Neptune?
CM: Lockheed Neptune. I’ll show you what.
HB: Oh, that was, it was —
CM: Lockheed was the one before the Boeing, well after the Boeing but —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Because obviously you’d been flying on Shackletons.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And then you go to Neptune.
CM: I’m afraid it will have to wait now for the next time you come actually.
HB: Oh, no, don’t worry about that. I’ve found. Yeah. I’ve found Topcliffe now. Yeah. With Coastal Command.
CM: That’s right. It’s all Coastal Command.
HB: Yes.
CM: That’s a Bomber Command Lincoln. That’s one of the Lincolns. If you look at the SR is the code letters.
HB: Right.
CM: The code letters for 101 Squadron.
HB: Right.
CM: We, I was on B flight there, George [ ] was the co-pilot and the bomb aimer in the astrodome. That’s me. Best photograph I’ve ever had taken. You see they get access to the photograph.
HB: Yeah.
CM: What had happened, there had been an aircraft sent to take photographs of the villages and towns actually but the photographer being a clever little bugger he said it would far better if you had an aircraft superimposed and we happened to be airborne SR 101 Squadron.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Doing bombing at Wainfleet range. So, they called us up, ‘Are you finished there?’ ‘Oh, we’re finish in a few minutes.’ They said, ‘Go through to Cleethorpes and rendezvous with this aircraft that’s taken —'
HB: Oh right.
CM: And that’s how we got it.
HB: That’s how they took the photo.
CM: It’s a good photograph of Cleethorpes. You can see the [unclear]
HB: And that’s the, that’s the Lincoln aircraft. Right. Yeah.
CM: And that’s the Lincoln, that’s right. And that’s me.
HB: And that’s you in the astro.
CM: No matter how, no matter how vague it is that’s me. It’s one of the —
HB: Well, you need, you need to put that in the pile for, to copy. And that one definitely. Right. So, right we’ve got you, got you in Topcliffe and you’ve done rocketry and all those sort of things and then —
CM: Made drops to the weather ships.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Weather trips. All that sort of thing.
HB: So, I mean you were at Topcliffe a good, a good long time weren’t you?
CM: Two and a half years. I did a full tour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On Neptunes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I was the first. The first They took one, one squadron member from each squadron. At least one. One member and posted them separately just to see if it could be done. Suddenly they found themselves with all these Neptune crews. No pilot could have told us yarns, you know [laughs]
HB: Oh right.
CM: So, so the experiment they took the flight sergeant McVickers, that was me and Flight Sergeant Chalmers and another one called flight sergeant [pause] Oh I can’t remember his name. But [unclear] squadron, just us three people on a course on Neptunes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear]
HB: It’s alright. I’m just, I’m just double checking the battery. Make sure the battery’s still alright. Yeah. Yeah. That, yeah that’s an aspect that we don’t, that’s an aspect we don’t sort of come across, you know. Obviously they’re trying out different ways of putting.
CM: That’s it. Well, you see we’re flying there but tac incident said put that new chap Flight Sergeant McVickers on the —
HB: Yeah.
CM: A cold chill went down my spine. Because I hadn’t had any — I’d had exams. I’d had the exams instructions on the radars. The APS 20 and things like that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I didn’t have the practical. I’d never used it in the air. So I mean, to ask you to sit down and do something from scratch which I didn’t even know how to switch on, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Anyway, they forgave me for all that and telling me off and I did alright for two and a half years.
HB: So, so Neptunes. The Neptune. I mean, it goes, it’s obviously a well used aircraft.
CM: I’ll show you a photograph.
HB: For that.
CM: You’ve never seen anything like it.
HB: For that.
CM: It was the most luxurious aircraft I’ve ever seen in my life. Neptune. Never. There was one of these commanding officers, ‘Oh you can’t take photographs.’ [pause] Yes. If you come again. I know now what you’re after I’ll have anything ready.
HB: No. No. No. Worry not. Worry not about that. I mean the important thing is getting your, your story.
CM: Operations.
HB: Yeah. Absolutely. So, now, we’ve gone, you’ve gone to Kinloss in [pause] you’ve been on the Shackleton course. That’s in ’56. 1956.
CM: What was that in 1956?
HB: That was, that was you were at Kinloss in ’56.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Doing a course.
CM: Yeah.
HB: A Shackleton course.
CM: Yeah. That would be the Neptune course because there was flying attached to that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: We were flying on those. On Neptunes.
HB: And then [coughs] excuse me. You’ve got [pause] ’56 you’re off to 224 at Gibraltar.
CM: Gibraltar. Yeah. 224 Squadron.
HB: And that’s on Shackletons. Where were, where were you operating then from Gibraltar?
CM: Well, once again I’ve got to show you this. The base of Gibraltar. The base of the rock there’s an open space. And you can imagine the north face, they always shows the north face in Gibraltar so that’s the face facing north. Right in front of the north face of Gibraltar they built a runway. The sea is at one end at Algecirus Bay and then extended in to the rocks so the whole thing, was not enough room for a proper runway but they kept on building it out to sea, out towards Algecirus, Spain. So there was a long enough runway. Our photographs you can see sticking out of the Bay.
HB: Yeah. So, so you were you were obviously looking at your logbook you were flying out of there regularly. Did you cover the Mediterranean and —
CM: That’s right.
HB: Western approaches or —
CM: The Med, did cover the Med but also as you say the Western Mediterranean, but we did all the trips to Malta and Corsica and Sardinia and visiting there. North Africa of course.
HB: Yes.
CM: Is on the right hand side as you go along. So a lot of trips just landing there. Anyway, I did the exercise. Managed to survive. Became quite proficient at the radar but you know I thought that’s not fair for me. I’m cast out of my course.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Which I would have joined the squadron with the crew as to be a signalman. A signalman. It would be good to replace that man as a special job and he made an immediate recovery. The best thing that ever happened to him was me appearing. So I mean, he thought, oh Christ and he recovered.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was a cushy job.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I mean this is what sort of comes through in your logbook is you’ve got this level of consistency going through now.
CM: That’s right. I did.
HB: And, and as, as an air signaller and you were going through here [pause] sorry. What did I just notice? Yeah. That was something caught my eye. In 1957 you were doing communication trials with HM submarine Subtle.
CM: That’s right. I went to one trip to Ballykelly. We went, this chap and my number two and my signals team, we went to this submarine. HMS Subtle [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: And we went for a full day in a submarine. One of the, well one of the most enlightening experiences I’ve ever had.
HB: Yeah. So you actually went in the submarine.
CM: Yes. I’ll tell you something else. I’ve lifted the periscope up. Transferred, transferred into — I’ve watched the submarine sink from, from the periscope area.
HB: Yeah.
CM: They gave us two a really wonderful experience of a submarine. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: Which was invaluable for, that’s what we were there for. Submarine killers.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In Coastal Command that’s what we did. We looked for submarines and sank them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we were gaining experience that was something good. And they showed us, the crew showed us the biggest pile of pornographic material, photographs I’ve ever seen in my life. It was about this big. And the [unclear] as well. God, it really embarrassed me.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I never seen. Every angle. Every possible. I thought these people are all sex maniacs. Because we were getting it regular. This was the [laughs]
HB: Yeah. The, the where — what I’m, what I’m what I’m interested in is you started your career in wireless ops and wireless operator in the ‘40s and we’re now in to the late 50s.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Coming up to the 60s.
CM: New equipment is coming up.
HB: So all of that equipment as it comes along I mean, was it every time new equipment you came out you had to go on a training course?
CM: No.
HB: Or did you a lot of on —
CM: No. If there was something radical, something completely different you’d go on a training course, because nobody could do anything about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the men in the latter part were the men that got the Air Ministry details, put everything down, the whole thing. They’d learned from there. Then they’d teach the people who were going through the courses. That’s right. So the radar, the equipment on the Neptune aircraft is so far advanced that until just recently in the last ten or fifteen years it was still being used in the spy planes.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was so accurate. The APS 20 it was called. Air Pulse Search.
HB: Air Pulse Search. Oh right. Yeah.
CM: Ever heard of that? Air Pulse Search.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the other one in the part of the wings, took part of the wings. One had the APS 30, the APS 31 and yet that’s just the system where you could lock on to an aircraft and home on the aircraft. Or anything. A ship.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Very very accurately with the APS 31. So the APS 31 and the APS 20 made perfect for long distance. They were used for aircraft coming in. The APS 20. An aircraft designed by the Americans for their aircraft, the Neptune was the aircraft used by us for long distance search except for the big fighter stations.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Air defence of Great Britain stations. They had their own.
HB: I’m interested in a note here in your logbook, Kit for [pause] we’re talking March 1958. And it’s something I’ve not seen anywhere else. You’ve suddenly got a list of it says, this is the 6th of March — anti-submarine air offensive operations.
CM: That’s right. It’s the whole squadron.
HB: A large [unclear] of those.
CM: The submarines, our submarines had taken the place of enemy submarines.
HB: Right.
CM: But about the German expression. They were enemy submarines. We had to find them. So they’d been given —
HB: Right.
CM: We had a good idea what they were using in submarines but we had to find out. In other words we had taken our submarines as being enemy submarines. We had to find out all about them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Well, that was really good training.
HB: Yeah. Ah right. That’s explained it then because I was, I was suddenly thinking 1958.
CM: I was stationed at Kinloss then.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Wasn’t I on the, that’s when I was on [ unclear]
HB: No. No. That was you were still at Gibraltar in ’48 err ’58 sorry. ’58.
CM: I was in Gib then.
HB: Yeah. You were in Gibraltar then. That’s what caught my eye was the fact that you got offensive operations but, yeah I understand that now. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s that transition you see that you’ve gone through all of this equipment. It’s, and its, I presume not only has it become more technical.
CM: Complex.
HB: It’s become small.
CM: Complex.
HB: Yeah. Complex. It’s almost become smaller as well.
CM: That’s right.
HB: I would presume.
CM: More adaptable.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The telephone valves, valves suddenly vanished off the face of the earth and first thing in this system, they got the APS 20 which was about this size.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It suddenly became about this size but the big thing was the screen.
HB: Right. So it went from, it went from the size of a coffee table down to —
CM: Well, yeah. In the [unclear] sense.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But, but it was an interesting job. Can you imagine to a schoolboy to be with all this anti-submarine equipment?
HB: Yeah.
CM: The finder. It was very very interesting. And if you’ve got something real on the screen. Something that was enemy, you know. Not so much enemy.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Simulated enemy. You think this person diving the submarine I have got him in my sights offensively [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: With depth charges which we had.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. That, well that —
CM: We’d be doing the job which we knew we’d be employed in doing if a war broke out.
HB: That was your job. That was your job wasn’t it? And then we get to 1960 and you’re back to Kinloss [pause] flying Shackletons again.
CM: Yeah. This would be the Shackleton then would be in January was it?
HB: Yeah. Shackleton 1 it’s got. Yeah. You got people like, you got numerous pilots with you. All sorts of different pilots.
CM: I think that would be on [unclear] it was [unclear] training. Must have been flying the aircraft that trained them.
HB: Right. Right.
CM: Numbers and numbers of the —
HB: Yeah because you’ve got, you’ve got exercises.
CM: That’s right.
HB: A3, A1, A4, A5.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Not exercises for me but exercises for the pilots.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Trained in, that was for the aircraft and I was just crew then.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Did all the dogsbody stuff. All the stuff that —
HB: Yeah. Yeah. The sweeping up. Making the tea.
CM: I did cooking as well.
HB: Cooking.
CM: Oh we had a, you could get airborne for twenty four hours in a Shackleton, you know.
HB: Right.
CM: Twenty four hours. I never did one. I did a twenty two hour trip once but it’s too long. I think a complaint. ‘I’m not having this. You’d better cut my hours down.’
HB: Yeah. I mean there’s some seven and nine and ten hour flights here.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Yeah. And then yeah as I say you carry on, you carry on at Kinloss for a good old time again.
CM: So my next posting after that was I did a [unclear] on the ground staff doing, looking after these, they called the a space stage two trainer. Looking at simulating trips in the air but not leaving the ground.
HB: Right.
CM: You could make exercises. You could make them up all the time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So instead of wasting money on petrol you could do the same thing on the ground. Get the same experience. The same equipment and everything. So that was saving money.
HB: So was that, was that sort of classroom based or was that in some sort of simulator?
CM: No. This was actual equipment. You’d sit in these cubicles with the same stuff that you’d have in the aircraft.
HB: Right.
CM: You have use of the headquarters in these cubicles. You’d have other aircraft in these cubicles. And all the equipment.
HB: Yeah. So the cubicle would be set up exactly as if you were in the air.
CM: That’s it. But radar. Of course you couldn’t get a radar signal there so they simulated that. Simulated kind of things coming up.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But nevertheless you could save a lot of money by just doing it on the ground.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was all handle work. Key work.
HB: Yeah. I can see. I mean I can see in here that I’ve come to that part. Yeah. Of the sort of the sort of staff training and what not. The [pause] yeah because that I mean obviously the booths that you talk about that were set up, you know with the equipment.
CM: That’s right.
HB: They obviously became the forerunners of what we now know in the modern —
CM: Yeah.
HB: Era of the flight simulators.
CM: That’s right. That’s right. But the link trainer I mean, it’s a simulator.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But you can get, you can fly blind with. The thing is you couldn’t get airborne so got to fly blind there except for putting specs on, hoods on people which they did do. But it was too costly and too —
HB: Yeah.
CM: The link trainer fulfilled that role exactly. They couldn’t see anyway, so you had to go by the instruments.
HB: Oh right. Yeah.
CM: You see people used to use the instruments and have faith in the instruments you were using. That was good. The link trainer was good for that.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: People who were poor at blind flying became excellent after a few spells on the link trainer.
HB: I have noticed throughout your logbook —
CM: Hmmn?
HB: I’ve noticed throughout your logbook there’s regular little comments signed by senior officers. Wing commanders and such of, “above average,” “high average.” That’s how they’re assessing you.
CM: That’s damning you with faint praise.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. So where are we now? We’ve got to — now, yeah this is, this is the thing. 1963.
CM: Posted to Changi.
HB: You’re in — yeah.
CM: Posted to Changi.
HB: 205 Squadron, Changi.
CM: The best posting I ever had.
HB: Was it?
CM: My wife, she was a very good looking lass but by God the people there the commanding officers they wouldn’t, they would all make a beeline for Shirley whatever the occasion was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Commanding officers, flight commanders, ordinary people in reserve couldn’t get a look in. So, I said to Shirley, ‘Who are you with, darling? The commanding officer or me?’ ‘You darling.’ ‘Good.’
HB: So a little bit of marital strife there [laughs]
CM: Shirley and I had a very good looking daughter if you see photographs of Jane when she was fifteen sixteen.
HB: Yeah.
CM: She was a very good looking girl. Just like her mother.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Well I saw that in that photograph. Yeah. But so that again that’s flying out in the Shackleton Mark 2s and that’s and I presume that’s doing much of the —
CM: Well, you should come across somewhere there at Changi that we had a wall, if you look at my medals. I’ve got a medal which very very few people have had. Fiona’s put it somewhere where you wouldn’t miss it. So Fiona’s put my medals where we’ll never miss them so the chances are I’ll never find them.
HB: Oh no. Worry not about that.
CM: This one’s particularly good.
[pause]
HB: So that would be [pause] so I’m just trying to find it actually in here. Would that be, would that be Borneo? Would that be the Indonesian Confrontation?
CM: Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.
HB: In ’63.
CM: That’s what I would show you if I could find the damned thing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The medal I got for it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Fiona’s, Fiona’s put it in a place —
HB: You’re a bit, you’re a bit far away from the recorder now Kit.
CM: My daughter has put my medals in a place where I can’t miss them. Therefore I know I’ll ever find them.
HB: Don’t worry about them.
CM: Ok.
HB: We’ll sort them out later. I was just trying to find —
CM: Well you’ll notice that those top of the. Something called Hawk Moths.
HB: Hawk Moths.
CM: Hawk Moths. We were fighting in the Indonesian confrontation.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there’s one thing we weren’t allowed to do Harry. We weren’t allowed to kill them.
HB: Oh right.
CM: It wasn’t a war. It was a confrontation. Once we started killing the bastards it went to a — so what we did they supplied from Sumatra. If you can imagine Sumatra or just in the Malacca Straits. There’s Malaya one side and Indonesia on the other.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Sumatra. But they used to go across from Sumatra to Malaya and do damage. Dropped by parachutes and people and all this business so we knew that we had to get these people as they’re flying, as they’re sheering across the Malay Strait with motor, motor torpedo boats they were, I think. Big boats but vulnerable. We found that the only thing we could frighten them to death with was this. We used to get, we used to have one, it was always at night. They always came across at night. They didn’t come across in daylight. The fighters would have got them.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But they couldn’t do what we could do. We could kill them or make severely inconvenience them by a simple method of using our four engines.
HB: Right.
CM: Four Griffon engines. So much power. One thousand eight hundred and fifty horsepower and the propellers had to be contra rotating to absorb all the power. They had tremendous [unclear] Simple as a Shackleton pull you out of anything, any trouble you were in just open the throttles and get out of it. And what we used to do was to fire off these 1.5 magi flares. There was thirty six of them in banks of, packs of six. Six sixes are thirty six. Six sixes. Now, they used to burn. Burn in the air. Bang when they go up there and when they reached their zenith it would burst. It would burn with a really fantastic light for about thirty five, forty seconds. Not very long. But long enough at thirty five seconds to appear what was going on. And as they went out, bang another one would go off. And this was going out this would lit up again. So you could get maybe a minute of continuous light. A minute’s a long time.
HB: Yes. Yes.
CM: You know, you know the smart gun there, get the radar detector going towards it and just suddenly, they’re not expecting it up it would go. Bright as day. So what we could do then look at the boat going along from Sumatra to the main whatsaname Beach in Malaya.
HB: Malaya.
CM: And you’d fly towards Malaya ourselves so the boat length ways. Not that way but that way. So then —
HB: So you’re coming in on the side of the boat at ninety degrees.
CM: That’s it, but you’d go down to ten feet. Just above the waves and you opened the throttles and go over this boat. Just dead, bend down just a little bit and level off and the whole blast of this right against the, the force of it, the force against the boat and over she’d go, and all the crew as well.
HB: So it would capsize.
CM: Capsized. Yeah. That’s something else. You’ve got a scoop here.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I’ve never heard this mentioned anywhere, that was.
HB: And that, that’s in the —
CM: But you see it there as Hawk Moths.
HB: It’s Hawk Moth operations.
CM: You can see.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I can see Hawk Moth here.
CM: That was down in the Malacca Strait.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course we wouldn’t then, we’d find a few people. There’s always people swimming around.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we said after all if it doesn’t kill them they’ll probably get in to the boat anyway. You couldn’t sink these damned things.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But all the stuff had been tipped out.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the whole operation, their operation would be cancelled.
HB: Yeah.
CM: In other words we won the war.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: That’s why it’s important to me to find where Fiona has hidden my medals. So she can, she can find them easily.
HB: Oh we’ll find them. We’ll find them at the end of the interview, Kit. Don’t you worry.
CM: She’s lovely. She’s a lovely lass but by God she doesn’t have the thoroughness of Jane.
HB: Right.
CM: Jane’s very thorough.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. There’s quite a few. Quite a few of these Hawk Moth operations in there.
CM: And of course during my time there we won the war. Sukarno gave in.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: I was chosen to be the photographer at the HMS Bulwark and HMS Centaur, the Ark Royal and the huge fleet out there just out for the Confrontation. They formed two lines of ships. The capital ships, the aircraft carriers and the battleships and destroyers and all the little ships.
HB: Oh right.
CM: That were there. And we flew down through the, we had an avenue of ships and we were taking photographs actually.
HB: You were doing the aerial photos.
CM: I was on the verge of coming back, I never saw those photographs.
HB: Oh right.
CM: But I was chosen as the photographer. Photographer, you see. But that was, so that was the end of the Confrontation. The Indonese gave us a medal and we got another General Service Medal. So that added two medals to my which nobody, not many people —
HB: No.
CM: Certainly not many people in the war, my medal rate, did you see that? The medals. You still can read it.
HB: I saw, I saw the medals on the photographs.
CM: That’s right.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there’s two short.
HB: Ah right. Yeah. Which is —
CM: The Indonesian one and the what’s the name.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s right, because they show the medals, that’s extra medals because the medals then were the general service medal and the Malaysian medal is on there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And there’s two complete rows. Well I’ve never seen anybody except me that’s got these two complete rows because I carried on after war.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was on operational squadrons after the war. I was in a front line squadron.
HB: I was going to say it’s all operational isn’t it? Yeah.
CM: I was the last in.
HB: Yeah.
CM: That’s why I wanted to kind of make a special mention of me about the guerrilla boat because I think your word after getting this scoop. These two scoops.
HB: Yes, it does. Yes. That’s great because that takes us through to where are we? 1965.
CM: But I didn’t do any flying though at that.
HB: June ’65 you [pause] I think that was —
CM: I went, I wasn’t —
HB: Sorry. July.
CM: I was a missile, I was a missile controller at Neatishead.
HB: Yeah. Because, because we — yeah. We —
CM: That wouldn’t be in the logbook.
HB: Yeah. So we’ve done —
CM: They don’t put missiles in logbooks.
HB: I think [pause] I’ll just, I’ll just make absolutely sure about this.
CM: So, it’s a full career flying in front line squadrons all the time.
HB: Yes.
CM: So I’m quite proud of that.
HB: Yes. I mean you’re flying [pause] Let me have a look. You’ve got a Hawk Moth operation on the 16th of August 1965. And you’ve certainly flown some hours on that.
CM: Oh yes.
HB: And that —
CM: I flew a lot after the Indonesian conflict to start with.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But we did have a new flight commanding officer at that time and he took a shine to me.
HB: Oh right.
CM: Unlike some of the buggers [laughs]
HB: Yeah. So that’s where, that’s when your actual flying logbook finishes.
CM: That’s right.
HB: But then in ’65 you go — or ’66 sorry.
CM: I left in ’67.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I was on missiles. I was the controller at Neatishead. But unfortunately —
HB: At where?
CM: Neatishead. It’s the biggest, one of the biggest air defence stations.
HB: Neatishead.
CM: Neatishead. N E A T. Neat. I S. Neatis Head. H E A D.
HB: Neatishead.
CM: Neatishead.
HB: And that’s where?
CM: That’s Norfolk, I think.
HB: Norfolk. Right, right.
CM: But unfortunately, on my wife’s instructions I’d put in for a commission when I left whatsaname, I knew I was pretty well thought of, you know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I knew that Commanding Officer Harvey was, he loved, he literally, he kept treating my wife at every possible occasion. This came back to me. So I knew I was well in with him but whether he was going to translate that into a good recommendation, so I just applied. Nothing. And Fiona said err my wife Shirley said, ‘Have you still applied?’ So I banged an application in. Then I was posted to Neatishead. The first thing that happened, I was posted there. I had a good long spells of leave before I went there. The commanding officer said to me, a very nice man, he said, ‘I’ve had a recommendation,’ from your whatsaname, commission he said, I can’t possibly send this on unless I know something about you.’ Right. Oh sod off. I didn’t, I was deaf as a bloody post I think. I couldn’t care less about a commission. I was nearing the end of my time.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And I thought it was just incidental. I knew I would be, I knew it would waltz through it so what happened? I fell in very very much with a girl who was a flight lieutenant. God knows what her name is now but she was the WAAF commander. She sat at the desk opposite me.
HB: Right.
CM: And she and I became quite comfortable.
HB: Yeah.
CM: For want of a better word, she did. It wasn’t long before she asked me about, ‘Can you take me home in your car tonight, my car’s u/s.’ [unclear] I realised, my God at my age of forty four, forty three this bloody woman’s is in love with me.
HB: Oh dear.
CM: This ugly bastard like me, you know. This was so amusing. So I didn’t dare to mention that I was here but being the adjutant because I’d put or commission, but she seemed to know. She said to me now and then, she said to me, ‘Everything’s ok, you know. Everything’s ok.’ So from that I assumed that she was giving the reports to the whatsaname. The commanding officer hardly saw me. She was putting in the reports about me. Right. So I thought I can’t go on here. I’m a bit of a, I’ll have to find an excuse to get out of it because I’m as deaf as a bloody post. I had to go through all the treatments, ‘Sorry Mr McVickers. You’re deaf.’ You know, that real deep deafness was starting so I knew I wouldn’t get through anyway.’ Anyway, to cut a long story short they had this sent to have a big overhaul at Neatishead, all the whole thing. It been going for years and years. The whole thing’s has to be changed. They’re going to be away for, I think it was six weeks two months, it’s going to be overhauled, all the new equipment. Everything kind of renewed. So they sent me, because there’s nobody at the station virtually at Neatishead, there’s the ground bit and there’s the top of the hole. There’s a big hole. They put me with the other spec ops doing this job and sent me to Patrington which was another Air Defence of Great Britain station. But when I got there I found that the situation was different. The man who was in charge of everything there was a [pause] what’s the word, he was less senior than me. So they said, ‘Well, you’ll have to take over.’ So I said, ‘I can’t possibly take over the job. He’s been trained to be an air traffic controller. A missile controller. How the hell can I possibly do it?’ He said, ‘Well you’ll have to go on a course,’ but I said, ‘I can’t have this. The best thing would be for me to pack the whole thing in.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: They said, ‘What do you mean?’ I said, ‘Well if I haven’t been properly trained I’m going to be taking a job about which I know nothing.’ I was looking after all the missiles on the ground you know. I said, ‘I’m supposed to be a controller from Neatishead.’ Signalling the targets on the whatsaname and phoning them through to Woodhall Spa or [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of the other place actually, near Grimsby. There what I’m looking for. Just to pass the target on to them. Nothing else. I was the controller. Missiles controller.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And the people there thought the best thing was I thought my god what’s going to happen suddenly coming home from Neatishead to say, ‘Report to for training for the commission.’ That’s the last thing in the world I wanted at the time.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So I didn’t tell Shirley about that obviously but I’d certainly heard nothing about the commissions and I left the station. You know. Left the, my friend the WAAF. The flight lieutenant. The good looking WAAF, and suddenly I was unemployed. So I thought the best thing I could here is kept mum. I’m out. I’ve got a good job. A good job lined up and I thought far better to get a job at forty five then be an officer at fifty three or fifty four and find out nobody wants you.
HB: Yes.
CM: So I used my loaf and told Shirley what happened. She said, ‘Oh let’s get out. I’ll get a job as well.’ So she became, to cut a long story short, she’d been a photographer at some hotel just up the road apiece and this job came up in the Trading Standards Department saying they were starting a new section. A completely new department called Consumer Affairs. So they set out all the qualifications, sort of. ‘What a pity Shirley. You could have applied for that.’ She said, ‘I fully intend to apply. To apply for it.’ I said, ‘Well but you’ve had no training darling. You’ve got no qualifications except matriculation.’ So she said, ‘I’m going to apply.’ I said, ‘What are you going to put down for qualifications?’ She said, ‘Just that I’ve been a service wife for nineteen years. I’ve been nineteen years.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: So off she went and within a fortnight she got a letter back. She’d passed the first stage. We found out later there was seven hundred and odd applications. And that was the big weeding out.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And Shirley survived that. And I said, ‘If you survived that’s good. You must have looked good on paper.’ ‘Well,’ she said, ‘I did. I did a good job with that’. So the next was personal interviews. They took a long time actually. But after a while I said to Shirley. ‘What’s happened at this interview? What’s going on here?’ She said [pause] So I thought that she knows something that I don’t know.
HB: The tap on the nose. Yeah.
CM: So I’d better press her, I said, ‘For Christ’s sake, I’m your husband,’ you know. Got to get a job to save the family because I was getting two thousand two hundred at that time. ’67. When the national average was seven hundred and fifty.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I was getting two thousand.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we would be digging into our capital. And the next thing that happened was another interview with only about twenty or something like that. Shirley came home. I said, ‘What happened?’ She said, ‘Don’t worry about it. I’ll get the job.’ I said, ‘Shirley, darling how could you possibly get the job with all these qualifications and you haven’t got any of them? You’ve just matriculated.’ So I was really worried about it so I didn’t make a mess on the carpet. In other words Matriculation did. She said, ‘I’ll be their first choice and I’ll get the job.’ I said, ‘Well, that’s lovely you assume that but I think you’re being a little bit premature. Anyway, to cut a long story short again four, four, four left, four interviews and she was, Shirley was told and the other, presumably the other three were told that by 6 o’clock tonight one of you would have got the job. He said, ‘We’ll be visiting the one that’s got the job before 6 o’clock tonight.’ Although whatever it was I forget the timing, so I said to Shirley, ‘Aren’t you a bit nervous with it being in the last four?’ She said, ‘No. I’ll get the job.’ So, I said, ‘Why?’ She said, ‘Oh, I’ve been their first choice all every interview I’ve had.’ I said, ‘But how can this happen?’ This job of course with all these qualifications, suddenly it was.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But anyway, at ten to six that night I’m sitting tactfully in our living room err the dining room. No. Spare room.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I could see the front and I saw these two people get out the car. Mr Butler and Mr Charlesworth. One was an ex major and the other was a Swordfish pilot.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I realised then straight away sort of found out what they were that they’d taken a shine to Shirley because I was the sort of a warrant officer aircrew. You know.
HB: Yeah.
CM: This is the sort of men, somebody that they wanted in the background of. I’m not saying that’s true. But I just think that’s what happened.
HB: Yeah. That’s what you thought. Yeah.
CM: One of the things in her favour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I said to Shirley, ‘Shirley, they’re here.’ And she came in and she said, ‘Yes.’ She said go in there and I’ll call you in. I took them into our special room that we had. And I said, Shirley came with me ‘Mr Charlesworth of course, my wife, Shirley.’ ‘We know. We know your wife, Mr McVickers. We’d like to be, if you don’t mind, alone for the, with her for a —’ So I knew straight away that she got the job. She was the first choice just exactly as she’d said.
HB: Yeah. She’d known that all the way through.
CM: It was, yeah she was, first appointment. The only one thing that they said to me, Mr Charlesworth, he said, he said she was an outstanding candidate. That’s was it. She was an outstanding candidate.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, what that means I don’t know but an outstanding candidate gets rid of all the qualifications. Qualification this and qualifications the other. They just took her on her own merits.
HB: Absolutely. Yes.
CM: And Mr Charlesworth err Mr Butler said afterwards, many many years afterwards, she was working there about twenty years she was the obvious choice to do the job. That’s because —
HB: So so while Shirley’s getting her job and you’re —
CM: I was then worked for Anglian Water.
HB: So, so you’d, you’d then finished and you joined —
CM: Anglian Water.
HB: Anglian Water.
CM: I left the civil service. It didn’t make that much difference.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The man that told me that I was a natural, natural at the job which I wasn’t and also one of the employees there told me if you want to get on here don’t kind of send things back for verification. Just pay them anyway. You see, you’re allowed a five percent, a five percent error. He said you’ll never make any [unclear] It was so simple that there’s no errors. No possible errors. Overtake the hard ones by scores. So you never get five percent error.
HB: So what was your actual —
CM: So I held a job, Mr — he did the X, Ys and Zs and I did the As and Bs. It’s a good to contrast. He got very few applications because everything was to be handed to me. And see he did the bits that were difficult for me. He cancelled them all out.
HB: Right. So what exactly was your job.
CM: It was an easy job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: At the top of the tree.
HB: Yeah. What exactly was your job Kit?
CM: Vetting Officer. I decided how much if a person was eligible. For instance if you’d only had half the payments in you only got half the payment. Right. So if the person came in and they’d only got say, fifteen instead of the twenty six minimum application you’d cancel it altogether. Right. But he’d gone straight to the name then, assistant or something. He’d say what had happened. They’d pay him as if he was full, full stamps.
HB: Oh right I see.
CM: He gets full stamps. So I mean no matter how little you had, their people who only had fourteen they’d get for fourteen and they’d get less then the person that had got none, none at all and he get paid the full. So us vetting officers we soon cottoned on to that. This was completely and utterly unfair.
HB: So this is for the water rates.
CM: No. Not water. This was, this was, that was the next job that I came to.
HB: Oh sorry. Sorry. I’ve missed a bit out. So that, so that was in to the civil service.
CM: Yeah. That’s right. The Civil service. And he kept on saying to me, ‘Don’t worry about that.’
HB: Yeah.
CM: After one year you become a, the, become a something officer.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] officer. It was the next step up. Free. Just get it free. You’ve got that anyways, if you’d done a year.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So I thought [unclear]. Here I am stuck in a job I dislike intensely, you know, being an aircrew man all my life and suddenly I’m kind of stuck there. So Shirley said, ‘I’ll find you another job.’ This is my wife. By this time she’s working at you know, she’s the department commander.
HB: Yeah. [unclear] Consumer Affairs.
CM: I’ve got all the certificates that she’d got.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Given to her. Not kind of worked for but given by virtue of her job.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And she said, ‘I’ve got a job here for you, working for Anglian Water as a district inspector.’
HB: Oh right.
CM: But what I got with the job wasn’t district inspector. It was area inspector. A rank higher up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: There were people who were experienced. Of course I had no experience but I did as Shirley said when I went to the interview. The first one I thought what the hell? Shirley can do it I can do it. So I was completely not bothered about it.
HB: Yeah
CM: I’ve got a good job anyway I’ve got pensions from the Air Force, I’ve got pensions from water board, I’ve got pensions from this and pensions from that.
HB: Right.
CM: So I did.
HB: It’s alright I’m just double checking the battery.
CM: Anyway, I’m terribly sorry I’ve taken over.
HB: No. No. No.
CM: But then you’re getting something about my background.
HB: No. No. No.
CM: I ‘m lucky. I’m lucky I have been, how lucky I could be.
HB: I’m interested in the length of service you’ve given.
CM: Yeah. I did thirty one operations in the hot war and there were five six, six, seven in the Cold War.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I did in the, in the, in the whatsaname for.
HB: Malaysia.
CM: Over the water to fly in the helicopters to look for where an aircraft had been. [unclear]
HB: Yeah.
CM: I had to map it out and tell them where it was and they’d come out and sort it out.
HB: The Air Sea Rescue. Yeah.
CM: So I had a particular job there and the promise to being an area officer and then another rank higher but I had to have the qualifications. They got to invent the qualifications for me. They said just get the A level in the, we’ll do the, all the chemical experiments for you. I said I’m in the base of a bloody load of corruption here. There was experienced both the civil service, they both told me first thing. They’d be a bit what’s the name. Something officer, there.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Field officer.
HB: Right. Yeah.
CM: But I wasn’t long enough, part time.
HB: So you’ve, you’ve gone all the way through the war. You’ve had your RAF career over twenty years.
CM: Twenty six years.
HB: Twenty six years. And you, you’ve gone back into civilian life. What do you think, what do you think the war, that your wartime service with Bomber Command what do you think that gave you for your later life in the RAF and —
CM: Confidence.
HB: Right.
CM: I was a, as far as I was concerned I was not only a wireless op air gunner who did his job but also I knew that I wasn’t, I wasn’t really scared. I told you I was the biggest coward and everything. I wasn’t.
HB: Right.
CM: I was apprehensive. I used to look at the, the aircraft coming in, the place where the aircraft was parked and find that there were so many bombs, if you looked at the front of the aircraft and you could see nothing else but steel all the way around from middle right at the end. Right through this. A huge bomb bay about easily from that to here in a Lancaster.
HB: Yeah. A good eighteen feet. Twenty feet.
CM: Nothing at all. And you’d look at the front and you’d find that, yes you could see it, everyone said it but you wouldn’t believe it. The wings were fitted upwards.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I thought my God it’s so bloody heavy there that the damned wings are lifting up.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course everyone, we were all aware of that, you know. And how the hell could this possibly get airborne? But as soon as the aircraft had gone on off the runway and got the a airflow over it the wings then start to lift, because if they [unclear] to lift and of course they reassert themselves.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And of course the Lancaster designed from the bomb bay. It was designed as a —
HB: Yeah. So so you attribute your confidence to it.
CM: And also I was a good wireless op. Morse, because I always, I never got any IMIs. IMI means de de da da dit dit — please, ‘please send that again.’ De de da da dit dit.
HB: Right. Yeah. Right. So, of, of your crews.
CM: Yeah.
HB: Because you obviously had you know a number of, you know slight changes during Bomber Command duties.
CM: Well, they didn’t know anything about ops. They didn’t tell them anything in Morse.
HB: No. No.
CM: But as something else to think about doing lectures. When I was doing my t cal, it was teaching I used to think to myself what I should really do is something that’s really interesting. And one of the interesting things about being a wireless operator was emergencies.
HB: Right.
CM: Now, you know that everyone sends SOSs when they were da da da da, so. But it used to be SOS de de dit da da da dit dit dit da da da dit dit dit. So this brilliant bastard, who it was said, ‘This is not distinguishable.’ It’s dash O S sent, sent separately. Why don’t we put it all together and make it one symbol? So what they did SOS and with SOS, SOOS and they put a bar across the whole lot which meant it ran, the whole thing bit of it, instead of it being it dit dit dit da da dit dit dit it became de de de da da dit dit dit dit dit dit da da dit dit dit Which everyone knows as SOS.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CM: So therefore it was adopted.
HB: Oh right.
CM: So we knew we had a system whereby if you had an emergency we used this system to do this. There’s a word called PATASACANDI. PATASACANDI. And if you think about that PAT is Position and Time. PAT CAS Course and Speed. A PATCAS Altitude. And then name. Name of aircraft. Intention of pilot. Right. All of this went out of your mind even and put all the things in and send it as PATACASANDI. In other words —
HB: Right.
CM: Height would be QAH fifteen, fifteen thousand. PAT, PAT in time of course you’d get your watch, plus course and speed. You ran the different course off from the, the whatsaname [unclear] and yaw thing, and speed. I didn’t get the speed but the navigator put down the speed. QTJ my speed is, my air speed is, such and such and such, my ground speed is depending which you were going to use. Then —
HB: Right.
CM: The course. And then there was the altitude. And the other one was the nature. The nature of, nature of, nature of the emergency.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Engine just, engine on fire. Bomb in, bomb in, bomb in bomb bay. Whatever the emergency was. They put that. Then intention of pilot. A PATCASANDI, Intention of Pilot. I at the end — intention of pilot. PATCASANDI. Everyone in the aircraft and the engineer knew that. How to send an emergency message was always in your head.
HB: Yeah.
CM: It was easy. You also knew the Q signals which we’d stick to them. The QAS for height. QTI for skip a course, your QEH was [unclear] of the whole thing so you could do it in your head. All the navigator had to say was, Kit.
HB: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.
CM: I was confident that if there was an emergency I could send that.
HB: Did you, did you, when you look back we obviously lost an awful lot of —
CM: Engine Yeah.
HB: Aircrew and, you know people, you know, people didn’t come back. What was your, what was your general feeling? You know. You fly out on an op. You come back and a couple of your planes are missing. What was, what was your feeling about that, Kit?
CM: What we’d do then if you knew an aircraft had been shot down. We’d got sometimes to the 500cc channel, the name of channel 500 KCs which was 500 used by everybody. Maritimes, aircraft all go to the 500cc and you could hear anyone in distress sending his distress position.
HB: Right.
CM: That was the wonderful thing about being a wireless op you could be individual, an aircraft you’d see shot down and we’d know you didn’t have any chance of sending anything.
HB: No.
CM: But others which were badly damaged the wireless operator there frantically trying to get a message through.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because his message and don’t forget you obviously finished off the message, the SOS by pressing his key for twenty seconds which was a long time [buzz] All the time in the world for the ground staff and other people anywhere taking bearings on you so therefore they get a good picture of just exactly where you were in the North Sea.
HB: Yeah.
CM: I feel I’m taking over too much now of this. Way over things that don’t even matter.
HB: Oh no. No. No. These —
CM: Well, it gives a good background to a wireless operator’s job.
HB: Well, that’s, that’s why you’re being interviewed Kit.
CM: Is that right?
HB: Because your wireless operator experience, I mean we’re talking lots of years here has developed. But —
CM: That’s right.
HB: In Bomber, in Bomber Command.
CM: They were going to be shot down.
HB: Yeah. You, you must have experienced that, you know. With friends.
CM: Yeah.
HB: And other crews that you knew.
CM: Oh yeah.
HB: Who didn’t come back.
CM: Yeah. I won’t talk about that.
HB: No.
CM: Distressing experience I just cut it out of my mind.
HB: No. That’s, yeah that’s understandable. I mean it’s, it’s a difficult area because none of us now can even imagine how you would feel and what you would experience.
CM: That’s right but I do wish before you go and I know you’ll be thinking to yourself how can I get away with this [noise] I’ve broken your communicator.
HB: Worry not. I’ve stood it back up.
CM: I wrote, I wrote a letter once, on an old notepad, so I’ll just [pages turning] Look at this. Do you hear what Sherlock would say? You’ve got all these to read when you’ve got time. Not now.
HB: Well, we will. We will on another occasion, I think.
CM: That’s the chap that was flying that Typhoon.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, I won’t, I won’t keep this, but I’ll tell you what it is. It’s a description of a flight I made. Just a flight rather than the flight. The definite article rather than the indefinite article. Ah is indefinite article. The is action.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So this particular flight was in my mind and I wrote it down exactly how it was. But also I’ve mentioned something which I’ve never seen mentioned anywhere before. Are you listening carefully for it Harry? It was well known in Bomber Command that an awful lot of atrocities took place. Have you heard about this?
HB: About the —?
CM: Atrocities towards aircrew.
HB: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
CM: Some of these people who are — they went through a very very harrowing experience. Some of them went mental. Deranged in fact. And they gathered themselves during a raid and tried to collect any bombers. A lot of people, had they baled out over the target and they’d come down in the streets and they, generally speaking there were some people who would [unclear] had very bad time indeed. They were hanged from lampposts. They were kicked to death by the civilians. They were shot by platoon commanders who wouldn’t take them in. They just cut them down with that, you never hear anything about that.
HB: No.
CM: It’s up to Bomber Command did [unclear] that’s why to a lot of people like me know about this. If people knew about the really bad times that they faced if they were ever taken prisoner. If the Luftwaffe were around the area and the Luftwaffe were patrolling they were pretty safe, but if there were no, no Luftwaffe around the SS they couldn’t have cared less. They’d shoot you out of hand.
HB: Yeah.
CM: An awful lot. There’s never been any book published. Any publication about it. People know, know this went on. But if you try to find anything about it.
HB: Yeah.
CM: The only way you find out about is by looking up at this report that I put in.
HB: Right.
CM: Which I can show you.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But I can’t now because I can’t remember where it is.
HB: Well, yeah.
CM: So I thought this might be the sort of thing that you’d be looking for.
HB: Yeah.
CM: On top of. In addition to. As well as —
HB: Yes. Yes.
CM: Rather than —
HB: I mean, it’s been fascinating listening to you Kit talking about that, you know. Not just, not just the wartime but the whole of, the whole of your RAFs experience. And you know how, I mean you said that you described this period of time when NCOs were being reduced in rank and whatnot.
CM: Well —
HB: But, but how —
CM: They don’t, they, let’s put it this way they didn’t say it was a reduction of rank
HB: No. No. No. No.
CM: They were exactly the same.
HB: Yeah.
CM: But we as aircrew had been warrant officers. We’d been so used to all this you know.
HB: Yeah. Exactly.
CM: But It was just taken over, three stripes, three stars and a crown, the same as a flight sergeant.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And they wouldn’t have it —
HB: Yeah.
CM: The aircrew who served they wouldn’t have it. That’s what buggered that up.
HB: What do you, do you think? Do you, when you look back now for that time during the World War? Do you think the public really understood what you were trying to do?
CM: I didn’t think. No. I don’t think they even thought about the things I’ve been telling you about now. The murders. That’s what they were. They were murders. And the best way that they used to kill and this comes up time and time again. Butchers. Butchers actually decapitate theirs. They set them in a line and one after the butcher would take their heads off. So called ISIS.
HB: But the public. The public back home here.
CM: They never found anything about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Never let anything be published.
HB: But in general terms though your, your service in Bomber Command.
CM: I tried to be a bomber.
HB: There were lots and lots of you.
CM: Yeah.
HB: As you came to the end of the war the public in this country had a view about the Spitfire boys and, you know the Navy and, and what not. Did you, did you — what did you think the public thought Bomber Command had achieved in the war?
CM: Well, I think that they pretty thought, and don’t forget and I came from a steel town and I used to and meet with a brevet and my stripes, you know. I was some sort of particular to the girls, I was a hero of Bomber Command. Because a lot of that on the radio all you got was, nothing happening in the war. The war years. The war world. But Bomber Command — last night’s operations. This. There. Bombers bombed shipping.
HB: Yeah.
CM: [unclear] what at the end was always the same. Of all, out of all these operations thirty five, forty four, sixty five, ninety seven in one case —
HB: Yeah.
CM: Of our aircraft are missing.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Now, you don’t have to be an intelligent member of the community to say ninety seven. Ninety seven, down the road. That’s from here to —
HB: Yeah.
CM: But there was a town up there. [unclear]
HB: But, so, so in general times you felt that the public were with you.
CM: Oh yes, really. There were also the liberals and the communists and the whatsanames. They wouldn’t be of course.
HB: No.
CM: But we were, as far as we were concerned we were being instructed. We willingly went into Bomber Command because in Bomber Command you bombed civilians. You couldn’t go to war like that.
HB: Yeah. And what, what was your view? Did, or did you even have a view of the government’s position at the end of the war towards Bomber Command?
CM: As regards the treatment of Bomber Command. It was absolutely atrocious. I’ve just explained to you about that.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Within, within on year of the war ending we were no longer flight sergeant or warrant officers. We were signaller 2s and signaller 1s and engineer 1s and engineer 2s, and pilots even. Pilot 1 and pilot 2s and pilot 3s and pilot 4s.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Because if you had one star you’re a pilot 4. For two stars you’re a pilot 3.
HB: Yeah.
CM: If you had one star you’re a pilot. No. You’re a pilot, a signaller 2 or pilot 2 with one star. No. Three stars was sergeant. Two stars — three stars and a crown was a flight sergeant. Three stars by itself was sergeant. Two stars was corporal. And one star was lance corporal.
HB: Right.
CM: That’s how, that’s how they looked at it.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: But the lance corporal couldn’t go.
HB: But the thing.
CM: Lance corporal couldn’t go in the sergeants mess.
HB: No.
CM: So they had to have separate messes and everything else.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So it was a complete and utter — it didn’t happen to the officers like that.
HB: No.
CM: They weren’t even mentioned. But we were treated badly.
HB: Politically, what, what was, what do you think was coming across politically from —
CM: Oh I think that at that time.
HB: Churchill and people like that.
CM: Don’t forget Bomber Command was the only way we could hit the, hit the Germans at all.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: Where could we hit? Where could we hit the Germans except in their homelands.
HB: Yeah. Yeah.
CM: We destroyed their cities one by one.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Until only one was left.
HB: Yeah.
CM: Dresden. And in the last few days of the war we destroyed that as well.
HB: Yeah.
CM: So we did an incalculable addition to the winning of the war because they, whatsanames the people would be dehoused. Had no where to live. The slave labourers were living in terrible conditions in mountains. The whole system was run by slave labour.
HB: Yeah.
CM: And that was because of Bomber Command. They literally — the population were bombed out of their homes.
HB: Yeah. Well, Kit I think, I think we’ve come to a natural conclusion.
CM: That’s right. I feel as if I’ve, I feel as if I’ve monopolised the conversation.
HB: It’s not a conversation. It’s your story, Kit and it’s very very important.
CM: So you learned about the way that the way that Bomber Command were treated at the end of the war.
HB: Absolutely.
CM: You’ve seen my logbook. You know I’m a genuine person. You know that I’ve done well for myself.
HB: Yes. You certainly have. Its, it’s ten to three.
CM: Dear God have I been speaking for two or three hours?
HB: We, we started —
CM: You must have —
HB: We started before 1 o’clock.
CM: You must have put it to at least a half an hour of that Harry.
HB: I’m going to terminate the interview now. Thank you very much Kit. I really do appreciate that.
CM: But you will come back.
HB: Yes.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Christopher George McVickers
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Harry Bartlett
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AMcVickersCG171006, PMcVickersCG1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:08:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
Christopher ‘Kit’ McVickers was working at the steelworks before he volunteered for aircrew. He trained as a wireless operator and was posted to 218 Squadron based at Woolfox Lodge. His pilot refused to fly and was replaced with a new pilot. The crew found the incident upsetting because they loved their pilot and worried for him. Kit went on to complete his tour and then after a short time out of the RAF he re-joined. He went on to serve overseas including the Indonesian Confrontation. He flew in various aeroplanes including Lincolns, Shackletons and Lockheed Neptunes. He ended his career as a missile controller at RAF Neatishead and Patrigton.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Gibraltar
Singapore
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
1949
1952
1956
1963
101 Squadron
12 Squadron
218 Squadron
90 Squadron
aircrew
B-29
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crash
forced landing
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Binbrook
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Hemswell
RAF Woolfox Lodge
RAF Yatesbury
Shackleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/927/11170/PLiddlePAF1601.1.jpg
4b309d0d7a9d3d42699d17e49a761c54
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/927/11170/ALiddlePAF161130.2.mp3
a89943f2bf3dee6d245760aa6f62153d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Liddle, Peter
Peter Anderson Forgie Liddle
P A F Liddle
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Peter Liddle (b. 1921, 1556756, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 406 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Liddle, PAF
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell. The interviewee is Peter Liddle. The interview is taking place at Mr Liddle’s home in Badshot Lea in Surrey on the 30th of November 2016. Ok. Peter, if you start of with just a bit about growing — where you were born and growing up.
PL: Yeah.
DM: Before you joined up.
PL: Right. I was born in Falkirk in 1921. In Falkirk. A twin. A twin brother, Alfred. And in 1939 when the war started a mobilization order came out saying that all male person, all male persons between nineteen and [pause] sixty I think it was had to report to to the local Exchange in Falkirk. That date duly arrived. At nineteen my twin brother and I went and joined up. And three options — army, navy or air force. My twin brother and I being ex-members of the ATC at that time volunteered. Volunteered for aircrew duties. After the usual medical examination I was called up in [pause] 1940 and report to Aircrew Receiving Centre at Lord’s Cricket Ground. From there kitted out and posted up to Initial Training at St Andrews. And from there I did a graded — posted to a Group Grading School. Flying School in Perth and soloed on Tiger Moths after eight hours instruction. From there eventually posted to Canada [noise of letter box ] Oh post. And to join the Empire Air Training Scheme. And after training in Canada — Ontario, Calgary, several other stations met my twin brother. He was, he was doing pilot training as well. And we came back to the UK in 1943. That’s it. Joined the Operation, Operational Training Unit, OTU at Lichfield. And posted to Blyton on twin engine Wellingtons having been crewed up at a centre in Lichfield. Three members of the crew were [pause] four members of the crew were Australian. Mid-upper gunner, wireless op, pilot and navigator. After operational training posted to a Conversion Unit at Blyton in Lincolnshire. Near Gainsborough. Converted from twin to four engine aircraft there via a Halifax first and eventually posted to a squadron at Binbrook. We picked up a flight engineer there because the four engined aircraft required an extra crew member and they weren’t trained in Australia.
DM: And you were flying as the bomb aimer. Is that right?
PL: Pardon?
DM: You were the bomb aimer.
PL: Flying as a bomb aimer.
DM: Yeah.
PL: After I joined the squadron, 460 in November ’43 and after one or two exercises, fighter affiliation, air to air firing and fighter affiliation our first raid was scheduled for the 19th of November. The big city. Berlin. It was the start of the Berlin bombing campaign and I went on the 19th, 21st and 23rd of November. We reached the target alright and dropped our bombs. No problem at all. We were engaged over the target by a Focke Wulf 190 but we managed to evade that attack. But my hydraulic hoses on the turret burst for some reason and I was covered in oil. Hydraulic oil. We, we turned then for the return trip back. There may have been a change of wind and and I think at the time we were blown south of the markers, route markers, on the way back and we finished up over the Ruhr. Happy Valley as it was called then. We were immediately coned by the radar controlled blue searchlight. Impossible corkscrewing, evasive action. We couldn’t get out of it and in no time the port engine was on fire and the captain told the [pause] control the hydraulics. The captain told the mid-upper and the rear gunner to vacate their turrets. The shelling got worse. We were flying about twenty, twenty two thousand feet at the time and no amount of evasive action we could get out of the radar controlled searchlights. The plane was on fire then. Diving down. And the captain said, ‘’Crew. Prepare to abort. Abandon aircraft.’ And I did the, as I was trained to do released the forward hatch so as we could bale out from there. I sat on the edge of the hatch. Oh I jettisoned the hatch cover down. Sat on the edge. Whipped off my intercom and oxygen mask helmet in case they snagged on the parachute cords and somersaulted forward out of, out of the plane with a terrific deceleration. I thought at first I may have got caught in the tail but no. I was safe. Dropped the rip cord away. I could watch on the way down the plane diving away on fire and at least three members of the crew were coned in the searchlights on the way down. I didn’t know where I was going to land because coming down at night you couldn’t tell the difference between the, the, what was water, what was buildings or what was forest. And luckily I came down in a patch next to the forest. I landed quite heavily but survived that. Followed my training instructions. Burying the parachute which was, which I did under the, next to a cattle truck. Truck. Cattle truck. Where the ground was soft. I then buried my flying kit except the battle dress. Checked on my escape kit. Buried all my badges etcetera and went into the woods and settled down there. I could hear the all clear go on the, on the sirens. Next morning. Early. It was still dark. Dawn. The first person I saw was a Wehrmacht soldier cycling home. Probably off duty. He had his can on the handlebars of his bike. Later on in the day I checked on my escape kit. I checked out where I was. I could tell I was in Germany because the navigator said, ‘I think we’re east of the Rhine,’ And I confirmed that by seeing the German notices on their electricity pylons — “Verboten." During the day I tried to get my bearings but I came across a group. A group of Hitler Jugend parading in the nearby roads. I managed to get between — in Germany on most roads there’s drainage on both sides of the road. I went down into one of those connecting culverts and I must have been seen by somebody but they came and asked me for my identification. They knew at once that I was an aircrew member. They took me to the local police station then and told me my pilot had been killed. Killed by flak in his parachute. They didn’t say who else had been killed at the time because they hadn’t found the two gunners who were still trapped in the aircraft. The other three members of my crew — they didn’t say anything about that. And I didn’t, I didn’t meet up with them until I eventually got, got to Dulag Luft via an experience. I was being escorted by a Luftwaffe officer and we had to stop enroute in Cologne. And unfortunately there was an air raid on at Cologne then and of course we had to go into the air raid shelters under the station. And that was bit dodgy because all the lights went out at one time and I was down there on my own. Aircrew. Just been on a raid to Berlin. The all clear went without any mishap down in the shelter and when we came above near the cathedral I could see the damage done to the, done to the, one of the spires. We eventually reached Dulag Luft and I was there until about the 8th I think. Oh [pause] I just forget. We eventually went by train. Cattle truck. It took about three days, two days to get across Germany to Nuremberg which is just north of Dresden. And I think I arrived, we arrived [pause] we arrived the 28th of November. Registered with the Red Cross then and given a number. Once you had that number there you were under the jurisdiction of the Red Cross. Anything could have happened between Dulag Luft and prison camp. Every time there was an air raid on then the trains were shunted into the siding. I was there too. We were duly photographed and that identity card, I’ll tell you about that later on, we acquired after the liberation by the Russians from the, from the German headquarters. That’s it. And fingerprints. All the information. That’s my air force number 1556756. That’s cleaned up, shaved, in the prison camp. A little — and the number.
DM: 203 263602.
PL: 263602.
DM: How did you feel when you arrived at the prison camp?
PL: Pardon?
DM: What were your thoughts when you got to the camp? What did you think of it?
PL: Well, on the camp it was at night because it was no — we had no idea where we were really until we went through the gates. Well, we were in prison camp then. The next day we were deloused. Hair all shaved off by the Russian prisoners. They were operating the machines. Like a horse trimmer. Deloused. And allocated a camp. While I was in the camp I was apprenticed. Trained at, being apprentice trained at the time. I managed to get a drawing board and information from the Red Cross through their education scheme. And during, in ’44 when, when there was a typhus, typhus epidemic in the camp we were, we were confined to our barracks. Barracks. Now, if you look at that there there’s the RAF compound consisting of four huts. Two hundred men in each side. A wood built hut there. Centre ablutions. And another two hundred odd. So there was four hundred in each. Aircrew. Locked up. The gate, the gate into the camp was there. Right. Well, we were moved from there out to hut sixteen. I think.
DM: That was originally the French and Dutch compound.
PL: Yeah.
DM: Yeah.
PL: They wanted that for, for a different nationality. So, we were there ‘til the 23rd of November. Out on parade. Appell as they called it. No guards there to take the count. They’d left the camp the night before. And the next thing we saw the Russian cavalry coming up that road from Neuburxdorf. They came up there. Cossacks. Run to the front gate which was there and gone up straight down the main roadway. Back out again and off. That was it. So we were left in the charge of the senior British officer then for him to negotiate with the Russians. Now, the Russians held us in that, in the camp apart from allowing us to go out for foraging to get food. And the army were quite good at that. They brought back fresh meat and food. Chickens. And of course it didn’t do us any good because we couldn’t eat fresh meat. We’d been, we had been without parcels for about — well we were down to one parcel between twenty. So we were short of food. Eventually the Russians said, ‘Well, we’ll march you down to Riesa,’ which is a town quite near the camp. Near Dresden, ‘And we will billet, we’re going to billet you there until we come to some agreement with the Americans.’ They might have been holding ex-POWs as bargaining power with the Americans. A Canadian chap and I we decided we weren’t going to Riesa and we made our own way and stayed for a couple of nights with a German family enroute to the River Elbe. We stayed with this German family and after being in a prisoner of war camp for two years they gave us a bed for two nights with a white, the first time I’d ever seen a duvet. That was the German nightwear you know. And during, during the time there we were visited once or twice with the, with the Russian soldiers looking for female members of their family. We said goodbye to them but with regret because they wanted us living with them as a protection. We eventually got to the Elbe. And on a tributary of the Elbe at a place called Oschatz near Torgau. That’s where the Americans were based. We crossed the river there on a pipe bridge to the other side and the Germans were waiting there. Russian trucks were waiting there to take us to our camp at Halle. They’d captured an airfield in Halle. And from there they fed us and of course I listened to Churchill’s big speech on the, on the radio. And they flew us to Brussels. And then from Brussels to Cosford. At Cosford in [pause] near Wolverhampton. We were debriefed there. Medicals. Kitted out and sent home on leave. I duly arrived home at — mother didn’t know my whereabouts at all and she just said, ‘Come away,’ and that was it. Back home in Falkirk.
DM: You were going to say how you got hold of your identity card. Your prison identity card.
PL: I’ll tell you about that. After the, two or three days after the Russians when the camp had settled down we, one or two of us went up to the commander. Commander [unclear] Got into the filing cabinets. Found out where our papers were and we all — that’s when I got my, got the original. And that’s a copy of it. The original. It was all information of —that’s where I lived in Falkirk. Next of kin, identity and air force number. Shot down. They’ve got it down as Essen on the 23rd of the 11th ’43. That’s a photograph of that with the identity. And that’s the negative. When I got back I corresponded with a Mike Garbett. He was author of Lancaster 1, 2 and 3. He he got in touch with me to relate to him an experience. So I set all that down and sent it. Sent it off to him. So that’s really an account of what happened. That’s it. And he acknowledged, he acknowledged it. As I say when I was in the camp that’s the, that’s the original plan of the camp I drew when we were in quarantine. And I’ve based the, I shan’t get that out because it’s getting a bit fragile now.
DM: I can imagine.
PL: This is a small print of the — print of the camp.
[pause]
DM: Did anybody escape from the camp while you were there?
PL: Well, we had an Escape Committee but they weren’t very happy about escaping. The only means we had of escaping were the army. There was, the army POWs who were sent out on commando, work parties. And they devised a scheme where an army man would change places with an RAF man. Right. And when they went out in the working party the RAF man devised a way of escaping. It wasn’t very successful. Always came back into the camp. Two weeks in solitary. Punishment. But the way, the way I drew this at the time paced out all the perimeter lighting. About fifty yards between each column. That gave me the scale of the camp. And as I say when we were there last in April for five days we got a copy of [pause] a copy of this.
DM: This is when you went back to the camp.
PL: Back on a visit.
DM: Yeah.
PL: On a display. On a display board. P Liddle. Because after the war, after the release [pause] there’s a book on there. The visit. If you’d like to have a look at that.
DM: So you went back to the Stalag.
PL: Yeah.
DM: In April 2015.
PL: Went back on a Monday.
DM: Right. How many of you went? Can you remember?
PL: Well —
DM: Actual. Actual POWs. Obviously you had family and friends.
PL: I think I was the only one then.
DM: Really.
PL: Yeah. Guest of honour.
DM: Yeah. I bet.
PL: If you like. That’s my son and grandson. They were, they were, when we [pause] that’s one of the organisers. [unclear] Berlin. To the Imperial War Graves.
DM: Yeah. Cemetery.
PL: [unclear]
DM: Yes.
PL: Have you been there?
DM: No. I haven’t. No.
PL: That’s the Olympiad 1936. That’s inside the [pause] Soviet War Memorial in Berlin.
DM: How did the Russians treat, how did the Russians treat you when you were with the Russians?
PL: The Russians?
DM: Yeah.
PL: You mean the Germans?
DM: No. The Russians. When you, when the Russians liberated the camp.
PL: Oh. They were off.
DM: They didn’t sort of bother with you.
PL: No.
DM: At all.
PL: In fact the Russians prisoners of war as soon as the Russians, the Cossacks arrived they were off. Just knocked the fences down and went off.
DM: Went off.
PL: Where they went?
DM: No.
PL: No idea.
DM: And the Germans. How did they treat you while you were there? Were they fair do you think?
PL: They were fair because we didn’t have to go in working parties. That’s the main gate. Stalag IV-B. There’s a party going out now. A working party. But being senior NCOs we didn’t have to do work.
DM: Were you a warrant officer by then?
PL: No. I was a warrant officer when I got back [laughs] Six months Colditz. That was two of the members. Well, that’s a Memorial in the camp. No. In Neuburxdorf. It was built by the French POWs. Well France.
DM: So, what, how many nationalities were there in your camp? Obviously Australians, Canadians and British and New Zealanders.
PL: And there were Serbians and later on there was a Romanian. They were German allies at the time but they capitulated in ’44 and they brought all the officers in to the camp as POWs. And during the time they were there I acquired through the, through a middle man, a dealer if you like, a Polish Jew. Aye. His name was Novokowski. I remember to this day. He came to me one day and says, ‘I’ve got a pair of binoculars. Romanian officer’s binoculars.’ He said, ‘And I could get you a luger as well if you want. If you want it.’ he says, ‘I want three hundred. Three hundred cigarettes.’ Of course cigarettes were legal tender.
DM: Yeah.
PL: And I was quite fortunate in getting a regular supply from the squadron. So I’d still got them. I’ve got the, I had these binoculars buried in my bunk somewhere. Under the floorboards at the time. Took a brick out and put it under the floor. And I was able to keep the rest of the lads [pause] what was happening with the American Air Force raids. It was very helpful that. My son, my grandson, we laid a wreath at the, at the Memorial. Now, only those who have been imprisoned should talk to us about freedom. That’s the trans, my grandson translated that. That was left on. And that there, that little obelisk, holding up your original drawing. After the war, after the release of the camp the Russians converted the, refurbished the camp as a camp for dissidents for, ‘til 1949.
DM: Right.
PL: They electrified and boarded up all of the fences so as they couldn’t contact the outside world. We had a piper in the party. And that’s me actually sitting on the foundation.
DM: Of the hut.
PL: Of the hut.
DM: Of your hut. What happened to your twin brother? Did he survive the war?
PL: He, he finished up flying with the Second Tactical Air Force at Lubeck on rocket firing Typhoons. He survived the war. He died two years ago.
DM: Right. Was he a pilot or a navigator?
PL: He was a pilot.
DM: A pilot. Yeah.
PL: He was a pilot. He got right through the war without a scratch. That’s a display board in the camp. There was a section there where my plan was stuck up.
DM: So I assume — was the camp in old East Germany or was it in West Germany?
PL: It was in old east Germany.
DM: It was. Yeah. So you obviously wouldn’t have been able to visit it until after.
PL: Aye. Yeah.
DM: Right.
PL: And after, after the, where you crossed the River Elbe. That’s it.
DM: So how did you get across the river?
PL: I went across a pipe bridge. Bridges were down. Torgau and Oschatz. [pause] My —
DM: Can you remember when you were demobbed?
PL: Well, after my two weeks leave, repatriation leave, I could have. I could have come straight out of the air force. Ex-POW. But I opted for an extra six months to get back into civilian life after. After the two years I wanted to get myself acclimatised. So I was posted down to De Havillands and they gave me a job in a drawing office then to get used to. And after six months I came out and had an interview for a job with United Steel Companies in Sheffield. And my intended wife lived in Sheffield. She was an ex-wireless op. She corresponded with me while I was in Germany but her letters always came back with holes in them, you know. She told me too much about [laughs] And my, we were [pause] that’s a, a Dutchman did a panoramic view over there as a painting and made it available. You can see the similarity as the — to my drawing. What else have I got to show you? [pause – pages turning] Now, when the camp was being used as a camp for dissidents about seven thousand were buried in a mass grave. Never heard of again. No names. And this is a Memorial that the families erected.
[pause]
DM: Did you, was it four of your crew that survived?
PL: Pardon?
DM: Was it four of your crew that survived the —
PL: Four.
DM: Yeah.
PL: Aye. Well —
DM: Did you meet up with any of them?
[pause]
PL: I’ll tell you about them.
DM: Right.
PL: But I’ll just put these away. Years ago.
DM: So the —
PL: Ten years ago I got a letter from Australia.
DM: Right.
PL: It was from the nephew of the pilot. His mother was the pilot’s sister and she had handed all the information to her son who was flying with Quantas Airways at the time. And during one of his trips to Luxembourg they decided to do a bit of research and find the [unclear] I was going to show you that. I’ve got his letters. I’ve got his letters somewhere.
DM: You didn’t meet any of the crew while you were a prisoner.
PL: Pardon?
DM: You didn’t meet up with any of your —
PL: Oh yes.
DM: You did.
PL: They actually landed in our, the same camp.
DM: So all four of you were in the same camp.
PL: Yeah.
DM: Right.
PL: Well, used to [unclear] anyway this Grant, the pilot from Australia he researched the, found where the actual crash site was.
DM: Right.
PL: Mollen. He sent me this. That’s Mollen [pause] that’s — he researched all this and the crash was at Bahnhof. That’s a German station at Mollen.
DM: A station. Yeah.
PL: And at [pause] He spoke to a woman in there. She was sixteen when the plane came down. She remembers it when she was a girl. And in 2006 my son and I he was, he was a Porsche enthusiast at the time. He was driving a 911 and he bought a car. A Boxster S. He said, ‘We’ll take it to Germany, Peter and visit the — ' I had the information from the pilot.
DM: The crash site.
PL: He said we’ll go and visit that. And so we went there. Actually went to the site but the woman that lived there she was on holiday so we didn’t see her. But then from there we went to Reichswald. To the Imperial War Graves are. [pause] The pilot, the two gunners. That’s there and the pilot is there. Three men. Three of them they were re-interred at Reichswald near Arnhem.
DM: Right.
PL: So we went to visit that. The Australian pilot, Grant Worthington, he told us about where the graves were and he was really surprised. His one remark was about it was, about it was no signs of graffiti at all. It was designed by a British architect. Very moving really. There’s the Boxster I went in outside the station house. That’s where the plane came down. Near the Bahnhof. That’s the station house.
DM: Right.
PL: There’s the railway and it was near. It was on that road. The crash site and he’s put a plaque on there somewhere. We didn’t see it but we — no time you know. But these are different. That’s, that’s the obelisk at the camp there.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Peter Liddle
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Meanwell
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ALiddlePAF161130, PLiddlePAF1601
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:48:52 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Liddle was living in Falkirk when he and his twin brother both volunteered for the RAF. Peter became a bomb aimer and was posted to 460 Squadron at RAF Binbrook. He was shot down and as he was descending by parachute he could see his burning aircraft and at least three other parachutes coned by searchlights. Peter became a prisoner of war at Stalag 4B.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Oberursel
Ontario
Scotland--Falkirk
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11
460 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
bomb aimer
Dulag Luft
final resting place
Fw 190
memorial
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Binbrook
RAF Lichfield
searchlight
shot down
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/828/10814/PFreemanR1801.2.jpg
bee4e64fb2e686498699c522ead3d620
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/828/10814/AFreemanR180312.1.mp3
dfcfd17e510a1bd603ffdddd8c3cb840
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Freeman, Ralph
R Freeman
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Sergeant Ralph Reginald Freeman (1923 - 2019, 1523700 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and documents. He trained as a pilot and later flew as a flight engineer.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Susan Abbott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-03-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Freeman, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: Let’s try that again. David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre, interviewing Ralph Freeman at his home on the 12th of March 2018. So, if I just put that there.
RF: Yeah.
DK: So, first of all then, if I was to- What were you doing immediately before the war?
RF: Before the war?
DK: Before the war.
RF: I was working for the BBC on the transmitters, and I was away from home because I was- I had to go into [unclear] which is too far to go to travel, and I was held back for about six months because it was in a so-called reserved occupation, and I often wonder what would have happened if I'd have got in when I volunteered. But as I say they held me back for about six months.
DK: So, can you remember which year this would of been?
RF: Yes, it, it was 19-
DK: Do you want to have a look at that?
RF: I’ve got my [paper rustles] 1942.
DK: 1942. So, what made you then, want to join the air force? Was there any particular reason?
RF: Well, I was- I hadn’t done any flying but I was in the ATC, very keen to fly, and as a- As I was in the ATC for some time and then, I volunteered for air crew. But as I say I was held back about six months before they let me go.
DK: So, what did you want to do as air crew then, were you hoping to be a pilot?
RF: I wanted to be a pilot [laughs] which I did achieve actually.
DK: Right, so can you remember going to the recruitment office?
RF: Yes, I can, I’ve got all the dates here.
DK: Oh yeah, if you want to go through those?
RF: All those, yes. I went to London ACRC on the 1st of March 1943, and I was there just over a fortnight. Then I went to Brighton, and I was in Brighton about three weeks.
DK: What were you doing in Brighton?
RF: Square bashing mostly [chuckles].
DK: What did you think of the square bashing then? Was that-
RF: I didn’t mind it, because we used to do what they called a continuity drill, where you count in numbers all the time and- Making various rules, I thought that was quite good. But, most- Funny really because there’s always somebody who took their own direction [chuckles] but, we finished up quite well on that sort of thing. So that’s what we were doing mainly in Brighton. But then, we were billeted in The Grand Hotel, which was bombed.
DK: Ah ok, yes, yes, remember that.
RF: Yeah, I can remember that very plainly, and then from there I was right to ITW at Newquay and I was there for just over three months.
DK: So, what were you doing there? Can you remember what you were doing at Newquay?
RF: Oh, at Newquay, ITW, Initial Training Wing, mostly classroom lessons. Theory of flight and controls and all that sort of thing.
DK: So, at this point you were still hoping to be a pilot then?
RF: Oh yes, oh yes, I was still hoping to be a pilot, and we finished that and from there I went to Cambridge, just for a fortnight where we had some training on Tiger Moths.
DK: Right.
RF: I wasn’t there very long.
DK: So, would that of been the first time you flew then?
RF: Yes, on the Tiger Moths, yeah.
DK: And what did you think of that then?
RF: I thought it was marvellous [chuckles] yeah.
DK: So, you only sat in the back as a passenger then?
RF: Yes, I didn’t solo then until much later on when I was on a sort of, in-between thing. Of course, I got to solo on a Tiger Moth then, yeah, and then from there- Try to see what I'm doing. Yes, went to Heaton Park as a holding- That was a holding centre for- Before we went abroad for training. I was there about three of four weeks, and then we went to Canada, in October ‘43.
DK: Can you remember much about the trip to Canada?
RF: Oh yes, yeah. It was a troop ship, it was the Mauretania, we went on the Mauretania and came back on the Queen Elizabeth I.
DK: Oh right.
RF: And, it was unescorted because the speed and the zig-zag [unclear] them, there was no startling[?] of runts[?] on that.
DK: So, was there many on board the Mauretania?
RF: Yes, it was quite a lot.
DK: What were conditions like on the ship then?
RF: Not too bad, not too bad. I think I had a lower bunk. I think there was about four bunks and I had a lower one but, the main thing I remember was the fact that you could go and buy sweets and things because they were all rationed at home and we thought that was- You could get chocolate and- Thought marvellous [chuckles] and- So it was quite a pleasant trip that really, but we didn’t do very much in the way of any lessons or training or anything, it was just the journey. Then, we got to- Went to Moncton which was a holding centre in New Brunswick, and from there I went to Manitoba for my EFTS flying, that was the first flying course I was put on, and at the end- That was about three or four months and eventually went to a service flying training school in Manitoba, service, was there about seven months.
DK: And this would’ve all been practical flying experience then?
RF: That’s right, yes, yes, a lot of flying and I got my wings then, at the end of that course.
DK: Can you remember what it was like then, when you first went solo?
RF: Yes, I can, I can. We were doing circuits and bumps and eventually the instructor- We pulled up outside the flight control and he jumped out and said, ‘Right, go and do one by yourself,’ and I just- I’d done plenty of it and I said- I thought it was marvellous by myself and I did these circuits and bumps no bother [chuckles]. So that was- I’ve got a record of it in here.
DK: Can you remember what type of aircraft you were flying?
RF: Yes, it was a Cornell.
DK: Right, yep.
RF: [Paper rustles] My first solo was on the 16th of November 1943, yeah, and we finished that course and then I was- Went to service flying training on Ansons because they- At the end of the EFTS they graded you as to either single engine or multi-engine, and I wanted to get on single engine but wasn’t lucky.
DK: Did you see yourself as a fighter pilot then?
RF: Yeah [laughs] everybody does.
DK: So, when they said multi-engine, was that a bit of a disappointment to you? Or you just-
RF: Not really, not really a disappointment, I didn’t fret over it at all, and then we went to- [unclear], yep. EFTS, flying Ansons, yes, and I came back to this country, I was abroad about just over a year, about thirteen months.
DK: So, what was Canada like then because obviously there was the blackouts and rationing in England, what was it like when you got to Canada?
RF: Oh, marvellous, absolutely marvellous. The people were really- Well, they’d do anything for you. We- If we had a free weekend, or anything like that, they would give us an address to go to and a private house and you’d be looked after and fed and shown around, and they were most hospitable people, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, it was really pleasant.
DK: Was there much to do in your off times there, did you go into the towns and?
RF: Yes, yes, we used to get forty-eight hour passes and that sort of thing, and as I say, we’d be given an address or a couple of addresses to call at and they’d put you up and feed you.
DK: What about the weather though, was it cold?
RF: It was cold, but it was a sort of a dry cold, and we had to have ear protectors because of cold. But it was- As I say, it was dry, so I coped with that alright.
DK: So, you’ve come back then, on the Queen-
RF: On the Queen Elizabeth I, yes, that, that was about six days I think, and-
DK: Can you remember where you docked when you got back?
RF: Yes, when we left, we left Greenock in Scotland.
DK: Right.
RF: And when we came back, I think it was Liverpool. I'm pretty sure it was yeah, and, where are we? Yes, went to Harrogate, to Harrogate at a sort of a holding centre for a couple of weeks, and then I went to Brough in Yorkshire and that’s where they had the Tiger Moths, we had a mess around with those for a bit.
Dk: So, you were flying on the Tiger Moths there, were you?
RF: Yeah, just before- We got our wings in Canada you see.
DK: Yeah.
RF: But I got back and hoping to get onto a squadron, but instead of that they sent me to St Athan in Wales on a flight engineers’ course.
DK: Oh right, so did- Was there a reason why you didn’t end up as a pilot rather, as a flight engineer?
RF: Well, they said that there was a glut of pilots at that time
DK: There was too many?
RF: Too many of them, and we were sent on this- Oh we had a choice, you could either go as glider pilots or we could go to St Athan and train as flight engineers, which is what I did.
DK: Presumably if it was the gliders, it meant you’d be transferred to the army?
RF: Yes, more or less, yes.
DK: Yes, so you wouldn’t of- You didn’t want that then?
RF: I didn’t, I didn’t fancy that, no. Some of our flight went and I never heard what happened to them, but there we are.
DK: So, you got to St Athan then-
RF: Got to St Athan and it was about a three-month course.
DK: And what were you doing there then?
RF: We were training to be flight engineers on Lancasters, and from there were went to conversion units, to be crewed up.
DK: Right, so can you remember which conversion unit you were at?
RF: Yes. Bottesford.
DK: Bottesford.
RF: Nottinghamshire, yeah.
DK: So that’s where would’ve first met your crew then?
RF: That’s right, yes. Apparently, I was crewed up twice, and I can’t quite remember the reason. So, I was there longer than usual.
DK: So, what was the crewing up process, how did you meet your crew?
RF: Well, as far as I remember, it was meeting in a large hall with various flying types you know, like pilots, bomb aimers, and navigators, wireless operators and gunners we, we just sort of got round talking to each other and if we liked him, what they looked like and if they liked us, we said, ‘Well, what about crewing up together,’ you know, so it was quite a short process really.
DK: So, it’s quite hap-hazard then?
RF: Hap-hazard, yeah.
DK: No formality to it?
RF: No, no.
DK: Which is quite unusual for the military, did you think that worked well?
RF: Well, it- Yes, I was quite happy with my crew yes, and I think- Yes, you all fitted together quite well.
DK: And can you remember the name of your pilot then?
RF: Yes, Reynolds- He finished us as a flight lieutenant, but he was a flying officer when I first got to know him.
DK: So, you all got on very well together then as a crew?
RF: Mm-hm.
DK: So, is that when you're training on the Lancasters started then?
RF: That’s right, yes.
DK: So that would’ve been your first time on the Lancasters?
RF: Yes.
DK: So what did you thing of the Lancaster as an aircraft?
RF: Very good, very good, we didn’t have any trouble with it at all.
DK: No vices?
RF: No, not really, no.
DK: So, could you just say a little bit about what the role of a flight engineer was, just for somebody who doesn’t-
RF: Yes, well, mainly to do with the fuel and the various tanks, booster pumps, that sort of thing, making sure that we changed over at the right times, because we used different fuel tanks on the Lancaster, about four or five I think, and looking after hydraulics, that sort of thing, checking. But, the main, main job I think was looking after the fuel, and checking the pumps and-
DK: So, where abouts were you positioned in the aircraft?
RF: On the right-hand side, next to the pilot.
DK: Right.
RF: And had a blank row, which was on my right for the fuel. We used to keep checks on the fuel and if the tanks, the tank you were using was getting low, you used to start the booster pumps on the other, next tank and swap over.
DK: Did you help with the take off at all, or was that down to the pilot?
RF: Yes, in as much as the throttle, the throttles and looked after the undercarriage and that sort of thing
DK: Right.
RF: And then, [unclear]. Then, controlling the throttles all the time, synchronising the engines, and maintaining the shooting speed or climbing, whatever was needed.
DK: So, so you had to work very closely with the pilot?
RF: Oh yes, very closely.
DK: Did you have to kind of second guess once you got to know each other?
RF: Oh yes, yes, we were very- Quite close, yeah, got on very well with each other.
DK: So after the heavy conversion unit then, you’re now fully trained crew-
RF: That’s right.
DK: Where did you go then?
RF: We went to 101 Squadron, although it was at Bottesford, that’s right. Yes, went to 101 Squadron at Ludford Magna, they called it Mudford Lagna because it was all muddy.
DK: So I've heard [chuckles].
RF: And we were there for about three months or so and then they moved to Binbrook which was more or less a permanent base which was much better.
DK: With the same squadron?
RF: With the same squadron, yes, and I went there on the 10th of August ‘45. I didn’t actually do any service- Any operational flying because I was bit too late coming in you see. By the time I was- Got onto the squadron it was the 6th of July 1945, just after the end of the war.
DK: Right.
RF: So, I was very lucky I suppose in that respect.
DK: So, your crew never did any operations then?
RF: No, no.
DK: What was Ludford Magna like then, ‘cause it’s in the middle of nowhere isn’t it?
RF: More or less, yeah. Yes, it was, it was muddy there’s no doubt about it [chuckles].
DK: Did that affect flying at all as you landed?
RF: Not- No, not really, no, it- I, I had purchased a motorcycle in those days and I stored it in a farmer’s barn nearby and this allowed me to get home if we had any weekends and that sort of thing.
DK: So, did you and your crew socialise together then?
RF: We did yes, quite a bit.
DK: So what did you used to do?
RF: Go down the pub and drink [laughs]. The skipper, he had a motorbike at that time before I got mine, and believe it or not, it will take seven people [chuckles] on the way back [emphasis] from the pub [laughs].
DK: Probably wouldn’t want to do that now?
Other: No [laughs].
RF: Yes.
DK: Was there anything- Were you ever told anything about 101 Squadron, because they were doing some special duties there? Were you ever-
RF: Yes, we- Well as I say, by the time we got there, the war had finished. We did a lot of cross-country flights and we did trips to Italy and fetch back some Middle East people who had been in the army there.
DK: Yeah, Operation Dodge.
RF: Is that what they called it?
DK: Yeah.
RF: Yeah, I don’t-
DK: 101 Squadron though, they had some special equipment on-
RF: They did, yes that’s right.
DK: Did you ever see any of that at all, or was it quite sort of secret?
RF: Well, I, I did yes but it was mainly operated by the wireless operator so I didn’t have much to do with it so I didn’t know very much about it really.
DK: So, you weren’t really told then about the specialty [unclear]
RF: No, as I say, the war was over and, I suppose there wasn’t any need for us to know about it.
DK: So, you’ve done the operation- Not the operation, you’ve done the flights to Italy to pick-
RF: Yes, we did, quite a few flights to Italy and one to Berlin.
DK: Oh right.
RF: And brought back- I think we used to fetch back about nineteen soldiers at a time, sitting on the floor.
DK: What sort of condition were they in, presumably they hadn’t been home for a few years?
RF: Oh, they were over the moon, you know, they didn’t care about where they sat, and they all wanted to see the white cliffs, so we let them come up-
DK: Up to the cockpit?
RF: Yeah.
DK: You say you did one trip to Berlin-
RF: One trip to Berlin.
DK: You actually landed in Berlin then?
RF: Yes.
DK: Did you get a chance to look round Berlin at all?
RF: Yes, we did, yes. We were there a day or a couple of days, and I went to Berlin and saw the wall, and-
DK: Presumably it was all ruined, the city then?
RF: I don’t actually remember seeing much of ruins at all. It looked to be a thriving city and, I didn’t see much in the way of damage at all.
DK: So, was there suggestions then that you might be going out to the Far East?
RF: Yes, there was, yes but the atomic bomb kettled all that you see.
DK: Right was that kind of a blessing in disguise then?
RF: Well, depends what side you’re on doesn’t it? [chuckles]
DK: So, had you had any training to go out in the Far East at all?
RF: No, we hadn’t had any, any training but I’m sure that was where we would’ve finished up, if it hadn’t been for that, and I-
DK: So, you finished the war at Binbrook then?
RF: That’s right, yes, and after that they sent me to a maintenance unit at Stoke Heath, 24 MU, and put me in charge of a gang of about five AC2’s and our job was to break up aircraft. The aircraft was supplied in very large pieces, and we- It was our job to get them broken down so they would fit on garbage trucks to be taken for scrap, which was- I didn’t like that job at all.
DK: Do you know what sort of aircrafts were being scrapped?
RF: They were American aircraft, that’s about all I can tell you.
Other: That’s alright then.
RF: But what sort of aircraft they were I don’t know, and I finished my service there and I came out on the 6th of December 1946.
DK: So, what was your career post war then?
RF: Oh, as I say, I was working for the BBC before I went in, on transmitters, and when I came back, I applied again for my job which I got, but they sent my onto a small transmitter in Wrexham, a local transmitter just for the area, in a couple of sheds it was [chuckles] and I didn’t enjoy that very much, and I wanted to get back home into the North East, but I couldn’t get back to the North East but they transferred me to a shortwave station in Skelton in Cumbria and that’s the nearest I got to home.
DK: So, this is still with the BBC then is it?
RF: Still with the BBC yes, but I could see no chance of getting back home so I chucked that job, and I went into radio servicing with a local TV, radio and TV shop.
DK: So maybe they should’ve had you as a wireless operator then?
RF: Well, that’s what I was frightened of [chuckles].
DK: Oh, you didn’t want to do that? So, all these years later, how do you look back on your time in the RAF?
RF: I, I look back on it as a very good time, I thoroughly enjoyed it, mainly because of the flying I suppose.
DK: And did you stay in touch with your crew at all?
RF: Pardon?
DK: Did you stay in touch with-
RF: I stayed in touch with the skipper, yeah, Bob Reynolds.
DK: Bob, Bob Reynolds?
RF: Mm, until about a year or so ago and then we- I don’t know what happened but we just sort of let it tail off, so I don’t really know if he’s still alive or what.
DK: Ok, well that’s, that’s marvellous, I think we better have a break there, but I think if you’re happy with that I’ll turn the recorder off
RF: Oh good.
DK: But, thanks very much for that.
RF: At- I remember telling- Came in and pulled up over the cliffs, and shot straight up passed this, while we were doing-
DK: Oh right, so you were parading on a promenade?
RF: In front, yes on the prom, on the road in front of The Grand Hotel, and he was flying so low that he had to climb very steeply to get some altitude, so he wasn’t able to fire us or anything because guns were pointing the wrong way you see[chuckles].
DK: So, it was German Focke-Wulf?
RF: It was a, yeah, 190.
DK: Right, so how did- What did- Did you all scatter or were you all-
RF: Well, it was over so quicky, we didn’t do anything [chuckles]. Because the [unclear] down Binbrook and we went and they had the FIDO petrol things.
DK: At Woodbridge?
RF: Yes.
DK: What was it like [unclear] at Woodbridge with the FIDO?
RF: They had petrol pipes each side of the runway which they lighted, and it cleared the fog and when you came in for the landing, you felt the lifts straight away from the heat from the petrol.
DK: Oh right, was that quite frightening, cause you’re landing in flames in effect?
RF: Yeah, yes, bit dodgy.
DK: Bit dodgy.
RF: [Laughs]
DK: So you were actually still flying Lancasters into 1946 then?
RF: Yes.
DK: And it’s got here some SABS bombing, S-A-B-S?
RF: Oh yes, that was-
DK: Can you recall what SABS bombing was?
RF: Oh, S-A-B-S, um.
DK: I think it was a specific type of bomb site wasn’t it?
RF: I’m not sure, I can’t really remember. I know it was a special range we flew to, to drop these bombs but they were only little things. I forget what the S-A-B-S stands for [unclear] that’s right.
DK: Right, the bombing range?
RF: Yeah [pause] 1946.
DK: So, the last flight was, April the 7th 1946?
RF: Yes.
DK: Ok then, we’ll put that-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ralph Freeman
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFreemanR180312, PFreemanR1801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:33:05 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Manitoba--Winnipeg
Wales--Glamorgan
Manitoba
Description
An account of the resource
Ralph Freeman volunteered for the RAF in 1942. He began initial training in March 1943 and was posted to Manitoba in October, where he qualified as a pilot after training on Cornells and Ansons. Upon returning to Great Britain, Freeman was remustered and completed flight engineer training on Lancasters at RAF St Athan, before forming a crew at RAF Bottesford. The crew joined 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna on the 6th July 1945, but moved to RAF Binbrook in August, where they undertook flights to Italy under Operation Dodge. For his final posting, he completed maintenance at RAF Stoke Heath and left the RAF in December 1946.
Contributor
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Tilly Foster
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1945
1946
101 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Cornell
FIDO
flight engineer
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Bottesford
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/819/10802/AFerdinandoP151005.2.mp3
ea3791002b48362d4bf685008c54a6d0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ferdinando, Pauline
P Ferdinando
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview withPauline Ferdinando. Her husband Harold Ferdinando was a navigator on Lancasters.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Ferdinando, P
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Int: This interview is with Pauline Fernando, who is the widow of Harold, erm William, Ferdi, Ferdi for short, Fernando. Umm, it's the fifth of October at three forty three hours, and we're sitting in Pauline's home, with her son, Robert. Pauline, can you tell me how you met Ferdi, and a little bit of your relationship with him.
PF: Well, I met Ferdi at a canteen, which was opposite the bus station where they had to wait for the buses, and I came off duty, and I went to the, er, to join my mother and father in the canteen. I came out, and I had three tables, and this young man was sitting at one. And I said, 'can I help you?' and he said, 'yes, you certainly can'. And he said, 'I'm going to ask you for three, I want twelve toasted teacakes, and I'm going to marry you.' And I said, 'you must be mad, but I'll get you the toasted teacakes'. [chuckles]. He didn't tell me that his crew were coming in after, you see. And so that's why we got off to a funny start, in a way. And I went to my mother in the kitchen, and I gave her the order, and I said, 'that young man's a cookie. He's round the bend. He's going to marry me, he says.' And she was quite annoyed, and she said, 'and why shouldn't he want to marry you?' [laughs] Her chicken child. Subsequently we found out we were both only children, and I think that drew us together even more. Ferdi's mother came from Wales, and his father was an, er [slight pause] an orphan in, [aside] what do you call that big orphanage in London?
RF: Bernardo's?
PF: Bernardo's. And his mother died in childbirth, his childbirth. And that's all I know really about Ferdi's side of the family. And I was an only child, and my mother was, she was a secretary to somebody high up in the docks. And my father was an engineer, a marine engineer. So he was working on the docks at Immingham. So that's all you need to know really about the family. Because we didn't have any family, being only children, you see. And anyway, he said could he take me home. I said, 'no'. So he came in the next week, 'can I take you home?' I said, 'no'. [chuckles] This went on for six weeks, and I thought he deserves a medal for perseverance. Anyway, I let him, and we walked home, and he came in and had a cup of tea with Mummy and Daddy, and then he went, cycled back to Waltham, where he was flying from. Then he became Pauline's boyfriend, and we were always together. And he really was the love of my life. And, I really can't explain, how we got so close, in such a short time. Anyway, we, we went on picnics and things like that. And he'd never been on a picnic, and as I says, having met his mother, I know why. And he asked me to marry me then, to get engaged. And he said, 'I'm going to ask your father'. So we went home, and he asked Daddy, and Daddy said, 'No way. Not yet. She's only just seventeen'. I was, actually. So, we sort of kept quiet for a bit, and then, as it happened, I think Mummy gave him a few nudges of pillow talk [laughs], and he said, 'it's no good, can I take her to a Mess dance?' 'Yes', he said, 'but realise you're not going to get any, I want her home by ten o' clock'. I always had to be in at ten o' clock. Well, we had such a lovely time at the dance, and we got on the bus to come home, and the bus and a taxi collided. It couldn’t have been worse, could it, because the taxi driver wouldn't admit it, and he wouldn't admit it, and the police were called. And there we were looking at his watch, and I said, 'it's quarter to ten'. He said, ' I know. I know what I'll do.' So he went out to the policeman, and he said, 'my young lady's in the back, and she's got to be home at ten o' clock'. And he said, 'I want to marry her, and if she's late, her father won't let me'. So he said, 'what do you want me to do, son?' He said, 'will you write a note telling them what's happened, and sign it?' And he did, too. And the next day, when my father went to work, he found this policeman at the gate, absolutely convulsed with laughter. He said, 'I've got a note for you'. And Daddy read it and said, 'oh, that's why they were late.' So he said, 'yes, that's why they were late, they were absolutely having a fit'. So he said, 'ok'. So that passed off very nicely. But I never went to a staff, one of the dances again until I was well and truly engaged [laughs]. Well. Eventually, eventually Daddy said yes, we could be engaged, but not married. Not yet. So he said, 'alright, but I shall keep on nagging you, Mr Borrow'. So he did. And we went out together, and Mummy and Daddy realised it was the right thing, and he eventually said yes. And we were over the moon. Oh, we didn't know what to do with ourselves, you know. Then he said, 'but you're not going to get married, she can't get married until she's eighteen. At least. Better still, twenty.' And I said, 'oh, you can't do that.' So, anyway. Pause.
Int: Lovely, we've got seven minutes, so far. It's lovely.
PF: It's entirely different to the first one, I bet.
RF: No, the content's pretty much the same. One or two extras you've got in there.
Int: Actually, it's better.
RF: You're more confident, I think, and obviously, having gone through it once you remembered a few more things, didn't you.
PF: Yes.
Int: So, if you carry on from about, um, how you went on during your engagement.
PF: During the engagement?
RF: Yes up to when you got married, and well, leading up to your marriage. Which is Stilburn[?]
PF: Yes, 'cos you didn't do that sort of thing.
RF: No, no, no, not carrying that carry on.
PF: [laughs] So, all this time of course, Ferdi was flying ops, and I could hear them go out, and hear them come in. And I used to ring up the station every lunch time, and spend my lunch hour finding out if S for Sugar was back. And one night it didn't come back, and I nearly died. She said, 'he's been, a German fighter followed him in, and they took off again and they'd gone to another aerodrome. But don't worry, he'll be back again tonight'. He was back again tonight, and back to Berlin. How they didn't get frightened, I don't know. I said, 'don't you get frightened of going up night after night?'. He said, 'no, why should I, I've got you to come home to'. And he said, 'I've got a long lock of your hair. What could harm me?' I thought, 'oh, my'. I thought to myself, 'my God, I wish I could be as sure', you know. I was sure really. I thought that our love would get us through. And it did, thank God. But he did an awful lot of trips; Peenemunde, and well, you see in there.
RF: Yeah, Turin.
PF: Oh, yeah. Penemunde was hard. And he went to Dresden, and he said that Dresden was horrible. But he said it wasn't the bombs that did it, it was the big wind that came up. But he said that nobody believes that. And then, so forth and so with, we went on, through a very loving courtship. We did all, we did such exciting things, like I sat at home while he held wool for me, while I did a ball of wool from a hank. And if you think what does a [unclear] do today, that's awful, awful funny, isn't it? [chuckles] And we used to go to the pier. And we went to a dance with my mother and father, and Ferdi wasn't a very good dancer. He couldn't do the round waltz, and Mummy said, 'Ill teach you the round waltz, son'. So they went round and round, and he got dizzy, and Mummy sat down on the edge of the dance- er, what do you call it, where they do the band, bandstand, and he said, 'you'll have to excuse her, I'm teaching her to waltz'. And she said, 'you cheeky little hound!' [laughs] And then, from then on there was no stopping Mum and Ferdi, they were pals, well, they'd been pals from the start, really. And, erm, he user to come in, and eventually mummy said, 'well, we have a spare room, if you're not flying tomorrow, don't go, you can stay here, if you're allowed to.' So when he wasn't flying, and he had a day off, he was there, and he'd [coughs], excuse me, he'd meet me from work, and we'd go for a walk with my dog, and all sorts of humble little things, but they had a cloud of gold round them.[sound of recorder switching off, then on] Well, really, it sounds as though he was soppy, he wasn't, he was a brave boy. And the boy turns into a man, and as a man he was even better. Sorry [through tears], but you know, way back in the old days [pause]. Is that alright?
Int: Yes, that's lovely, that's lovely. Keep going, you're doing really, really well. Doing really well. If you want to have a quick break, and think about you can. Alright?
PF: You don't want the wedding, do you?
Int: Yeah!
RF: [Chuckles]
PF: Eh?
Int: Yeah, everything.
PF: [aside to RF] What else? Can you think of all the other places he went to?
RF: Oh well, it's all in here, but I mean, well, er, I think this is normal because it always records under each -
PF: Peenemunde he didn't like doing because a lot of our boys got killed.
RF: It was a volunteered one, wasn't it.
PF: Yes.
Int: Did he do Op Manna? Did he do Op Manna, where they dropped the, dropped the food to the, er, the Dutch?
RF: Oh, after, er during the war? Just after the war, Yes, and he also did, erm.
Int: Berlin.
RF: That's it, cos he, erm -
PF: The other thing I've remembered is that when he's bombed, you see, he has the name Ferdinando, and he was born in Germany, in the first World War his father was posted overseas in the army of occupation there, and Ferdi was born there. And in the second World War he bombed the daylights out of it. But he said he, they never aimed at anything, you know, they tried not to, anyway, but he said after all, they started this war, and they bombed Coventry and they bombed London, and they didn't care about anything. So really, as they said, um, as Bomber Harris said, they are now reap the whirlwind. And they did. But to see a young, fresh-faced lad, as he was, grow into the man he was, his son can guarantee that, he was wonderful. And he stayed in af- he stayed in so many years after, and that's when we were sent to Germany as [pause] second World War's, what do you call it, army of occupation. And so, so it went on from there. And the children went with me, I went with him, and wherever he was posted, I went. And a lot of the people sent the children to boarding school, but not me. I wanted them with me, I wanted the loved ones with me. And Ferdi didn't insist on that, either. He wanted his family, and he was a family man. And he was a great sportsman, er, he played for the RAF [unclear], he actually shot for the RAF at Bisley, and he won the cup for them. When he was at Binbrook, that was. And we went, we went to different, you know, stations after the war. Wherever there was a vacancy, and someone wanted to, you know, and then of course, he became, [pause] what do they call it now, I've forgotten. You'll have to excuse the forgetfulness. When [pause], can't remember, when they took over from someone who was, you know, going somewhere else. We went right round Lincolnshire like that. Wonderful. Then we went to Bath, and we went to all sorts of places. In fact-
RF: Was it Adjutant? Was it an Adjutant?
PF: Yes, that's what it was, he was Flying Wing Adj. So he didn't do so bad. And I must admit, that I don't think that my two boys missed any, er, Command, when he was taking the salute. Never missed one. I had to stand with them in the rain, the snow, the frost, and we loved it. That was our Daddy [chuckles]. And, well, then he eventually came out of the RAF. But it was, while it was there, it was the most wonderful life. Mind you, I was lucky, I had a wonderful husband.
Int: Tell me a little bit more about his crew. Did you meet-
PF: Oh, his crew. Well one, Paddy, was the, erm, can't think what he was, er, I think he was the, er, Navigator, but Ferdi was a Navigator, but, Bomb Aimer, but also he could fly the plane. He'd been to, he was trained in Canada, to be a Pilot. [aside] oh, thank you [pause] Bomb Aimer, oh yes, this, Mike Finnelly? Was the Wireless Operator, was as nutty as fruit cake, and the Mid Upper Gunner was , I can't read this, I haven't got my glasses on, and, I don't know some of these, cos I don't know, you know, we had just a few people. The Pilot was, oh I should know that because he got a medal for it-
RF: Will Brook.
PF: Brook, that's right. Brook. Then the, er, rear gunner was Jimmy Flynn, and he came from the other side of the Island, and he was tiny, and the other was a tall one. And he, too, married a Grimsby girl. Cos he always said that the Grimsby girls were the best girls. [laughs] And the Nottingham people say that their girls are the best girls. They're all the best girls. And so it went on. And life became, to me, one load of love, affection, happiness with my children, and a wonderful life. And we were married, would have been married [aside] sixty nine years this year? Forty four we were married, yes. Well, we were married a devil of a long time. I'm only looking out the window cos. Anyway, after the honeymoon, which didn't take place, because he was called for special duties, and so we had a week in the Yorkshire Moors later on, and then all the crew got leave as well, you see. So we thought about them as well, you see [chuckles]. And it was wonderful. We, I rode on the Yorkshire Moors until he threw me [laughs] and then I had to walk home. We were going to this big hotel at, er, I can't even remember where I went on honeymoon. Anyway, we went, we stopped off to ask the way, was it Morecambe, somewhere like that, by a policeman, and he said, 'how do you get to there?' He said, 'you just got married'. I said, ' how do you know that?' He said, ' you're covered in confetti, dear.' [laughs] So I said, 'oh, I thought we'd got rid of all that.' And he said, 'take my advice, and go to the Falcon Inn on the Moors. You'll have a wonderful holiday there.' And they hadn't any room. They'd got a caravan in the grounds at the back. Of course, that sounded wonderful to us. On our own, in a caravan, oh boy. And so he said, 'but I'm not going to let you have it until you go up to the next Inn, and see if you can get in there.' So we said, 'alright.' So we walked, we drove away, we sat and had a cunnuddle, a canoodle in the car, and went back and said, 'they're full up'. Lying our heads off, we'd never even been in. And so we had eventually a honeymoon in the Yorkshire Moors. It was going to be in London, but there we are, it didn't happen. But it couldn't have been a better honeymoon [chuckles]. And so. Life went on. And we had a wonderful time, because there was a big hotel on the cliffs, and of course they were on rations. Now I don't know where these people got their rations from, but the food was fantastic. And there was a lot of civilians there, and one had a, what do you call those cars that the police always ran, the, er, Rovers. And we had a tatty little Austin Seven, that I bought for my husband as a wedding present. Cost me all of twenty quid, and I was broke after that [laughs]. And we used to stop at every dump to see if we could find anything for the car. [laughs] Because, if you ran over thirty, I used to sit holding the roof on, cos it was a cabriolet. But it went many miles. And we didn't have the children then, so, good job, wasn't it. And so. Do you want any more? Oh God, I think I'll have to-
Int: Tell me a little about your life in Immingham, during the war.
PF: Oh, yes. Well, I was a hairdresser. And, er, of course Immingham became a naval station, and er, whatsiname, er, Prince Phillip's bod. Mountbatten. Mountbatten was there, and he was loved by everybody. And he used to come in have his hair cut, and, 'cos downstairs was the lad-, no, downstairs was the gents, barbers and haircuts, and upstairs was the ladies salon, you see. And I got all sorts of people up there. The [pause] Dowager Drogheda from Ireland, and all sorts of people like that. And I used to earn an extra couple of bob if I took her dog out for a wee. So, nobody wanted to do it, it was too [unclear]. 'Pauline, you don't want to do that'. I said, 'I want the two bob'. [laughs]. Because I was saving up for a present for Ferdi. And so it went on, like that. The boys in the Navy supplied all the fruit and the stuff for my wedding cake, because my mother and father would say, 'who's going on leave tomorrow?', and they'd put their hands up, and he'd say, 'I've got a bed for two'. And so, because Immingham was, I don't know how many miles it was to Grimsby, but it had a tram, and the tram didn't get in until the first train had left, and so they lost a day of their holiday. So once Daddy found out that, he used to say every time, I mean he'd come down and there'd be sailors all over the blooming place. On the chairs, you know. But Mummy and Daddy loved people, and they couldn't do enough for the boys. So, really, [aside] you remember them, don't you? He's not going to talk to me now. Anyway, what else have I got? I got onto, the honeymoon and that was that, and then he came back and went on to Ops. Did a second tour. That was the day we got back. And so we went through all the agony of Berlin, and all the rest of the others. But, I knew he'd come back, because he'd said he would. And he did. What else do you want? I'm nearly worn out.
Int: That's okay. You're doing really, really well.
PF: I'm going to these places, I'm seeing them, that's the trouble.
Int: No, no that's ideal. You're bringing a bit of life to it because you're doing that. So, no, it's lovely. You could talk a little bit more, er about, er, about how you felt, perhaps, um, about Ferdi being on Ops, you know, how you felt when you knew he was on Ops. Or, or, if you'd prefer, you could just talk about how the war affected you, apart from, obviously, having sailors all over the shop [laughs]. How the war affected you in other ways.
PF: Yes, well, it was very. I'll start again, if you like. It was dramatic being married to an airman, but then I was only one of many, and the ladies who were married to Naval men went through even worse, I think. And of course, the poor girls who were married to soldiers who went out east, and that was murder for them. But, because I worked with one of the wives of one of ones in a prisoner of war camp in Japan, in Japanese hands, on the Death Railway, and, this is a little ad lib, I went to the cinema with my mother, and you don't probably remember the Gaumont News, no, well the news came on, and it showed you these people in the camps. How they'd got it out, I don't know. And I said, when I went back to work, 'Go see it, because I don't know what your husband looks like'. And she actually saw her husband. Actually I don't think it did her good because he was skin and bone, and the manager of the Gaumont cinema let her in every night at news night, so she could watch it. So she, she and I had a bond then. And one of those little things that you did in the war, you helped each other. It's a shame it doesn't go on now, but there we are. That was a different time, a different age. Blimey [pause], I'm ninety [pause], so really, it's a long time ago. [Pause] What else do you want? {Tape machine noises] I'm just trying to think. I don't think I can do much more because I don't remember it all.
Int: No, no, you're doing extremely well. Extremely well.
RF: I think it's quite good, actually.
Int: Yeah. And you're bringing lots of little things like, little side lines.
PF: Well, you had to help each other in the war, didn't you?
Int: Yeah.
PF: [Chuckles] And I always remember [rustling as tape machine moved]. One of the things I do remember, like the canteen, was a couple of Americans came in. And I didn't know whether they were Officer, or other ranks, I didn't know anything about them. And I served them, and the erm, my father said, 'they're not supposed to be in here, Pauline'. So I said, 'why not?', and he said, 'because they've got their own place by the, across the road'. He said, 'but they seem happy enough' Well, they tried to come in every time, because they liked it so much. [chuckles] Anyway, they wanted to meet my mother and father, you see. So I said, 'if you meet me from work, I'll take you home, and you can have supper with us'. Which was fish and chips from the fish shop. And, that, er, that's how the, how I got to know I'd been talking to a quite high up officer. I didn't know who he was from Adam. And Mummy and Daddy [unclear], and he carried on coming to see Mum and Dad all the time he was there. But you dare not say anything, like, 'oh, I'm sorry we haven't got that, we can't get it now', because the next day a bloody great tin would come up. You know, of Pineapple, or something like that. They were very, very, helpful, you know, kind and considerate. And they got a bad pasting, really, because they weren't, they weren't really as bad as they were made out to be. They were nice boys, just like ours were. And they had mothers waiting for them. Anyway, they corresponded with my mother and father until well after the war. Any how, Daddy got, in, back at the Navy, in the dockyard, he got interested in one of the divers. And you know that in those days they had big hats on, didn't they. And he went down, and he said, 'co, aren't you frightened down there?' He said, 'no, no I'm not. If you know what you're doing'. And that boy, or man he would be, again corresponded with my parents until long after the war. So you see, by bringing a little bit of kindness, you got kindness back. But that, they don't seem to realise that, these days. What you give, you get back. And that goes both ways. If you're rotten to somebody, you expect to be rotten to somebody back to you.
Int: Tell me a little bit about when war first started, and you, you must have been still at school then.
PF: Yes, I was. Of course I thought it was exciting. Of course I didn't know any better. And I can remember they had an Evening Telegraph, the Grimsby Evening Telegraph, and he stood on the corner of the main road, and he said, as Mummy and I were coming up the street, she'd been to meet me from school, and he said, 'read all about it. War's started.' And I remember that. And I remember I said to my mother,' what does he mean the war's starting, Mummy?' And she said, you'll find out soon enough, dear.' And she didn't tell me, and I gathered, slowly, and I realised that I was, you know, when I grew up, that I was part of that war. But I don't think, - Oh, I gave blood. Well I thought I was ever so brave, I gave blood. And I collected stamps for them, and all sorts of things like that. But, my father was in the Home Guard. 's a lovely story, this, because Daddy, as soon as he was, he was a Sergeant, you know, in the Home Guard, and he went out on duty, and the other sergeants said to him, 'Oh, Jack, will you go down that lane and don't let anyone go by it will you, because we don't want them in there.' So Daddy went and did as he was told, and two hours later the man came back, and he says,' Oh, good, it's not gone off, then.' He said, 'What?'. And he says, 'you've been guarding an unexploded bomb, boy.' [Laughs] And he says, 'Good God, I didn't know that'. He says, 'No, but if you'd known that, you wouldn't have stayed, would you?' [Laughs] And the other thing, when they bombed, I didn't have a bicycle, but my dad did, and I used to go everywhere on my father's bike, very un-lady-like, of course, and I went to see how my grandma was, she lived the other side of town, and I do remember this, because I'll never forget it, a little girl had got a basket, and she'd got some of these dollies and teddies and sweeties in her basket, and the warden was going very gingerly towards her and saying, 'Sweetheart, put that down, and I'll find you some more up here, and then we'll get them all together.' And he was sweating, I remember, and the little girl put it down, and she said, 'Now, I'll have to tell my mummy about this, won't I?' And he said, 'Yes.' They only had to touch them sometimes and they went off, and she'd got three of them in this little basket. So I went and saw that my grandma was alright, and er. We had a wedding reception, by the way. I do remember this. I'm back-tracking now. And, um, it was difficult to get one, to get everyone togther, you know. I mean, I had to get leave co-ordinated and, we went to the [pause], oh I've forgotten the name of the place now. Anyway, it's in Cleethorpes, and it's opposite the only, Grimsby was the only town, place, that played always away, because their football was just over the, into Cleethorpes. So, I always remember that. Anyway, we got this lovely, lovely reception, you know because it was very difficult to get food. And we all went back, we were supposed to go off to London, of course, but that was all up the creek. So we went back to my mother's house, and everybody that could went with us. And I got changed, and said, 'Where's our taxi, Mummy?' And she said, 'Oh, it's outside'. And somebody had pinched it. [laughs] And so we got on the trolley bus and went home and said, 'Oh we've got to go and collect Grandma'. And [unclear] went and collected my grandma, and she came to the wedding reception on her, you know. So, everybody was happy, and of course, we had nothing, nothing to drink, of course, you know, there was nothing there, and Mummy hadn't got food for all these people, so my Maid of Honour, Betty, said, 'I know. Everybody here like fish and chips?' And they all said yes, and I looked at my mother in law, [chuckles], and I said, 'Yes, we love them'. So she went to Charlies which was down the road, and she said, 'Can we have twenty five pieces and chips?', and he says, 'What's going on?' And so she said, 'Well, Pauline got married today'. He said, 'My little Pauline?' She said, 'Yes, she's grown up'. So he said, ' Oh, I'll have to get her something different.' So he did all that, then he came out with a big dish with two lovely plaice on it, where'd he'd got this plaice from, I don't know, and chips all the way round it, and 'Love from Charlie' on it. [laughs] And we sat down in the middle of the floor, with all our friends around us, and tucked in to fish and chips. And that was the funniest wedding reception you've ever seen, a posh one and an un-posh one. But that was our life; we were up, and down. We didn't care. [tape noises] Was that the end? [unclear] So having consumed the fish and chips, Grandma decided she'd go home, and they took her home in a taxi, and everybody went down to the Yarborough Arms to have a drink, except the old ones, you know. Needless to say Ferdi's mum and dad didn't, well my mum and dad didn't, because had to stay with them, didn't they [chuckles}, and my boss, where I worked as a hairdresser, had booked us a room in the Yarborough Hotel. It's right outside the station. And so we went to the Yarborough Hotel, we slipped away from the drinkers, and got down there, and I put the wrong name down, didn't I? {laughs] He said, 'You're not a Borritt any longer, you're a Ferdinando.' I said, 'Id forgot that'. He said, ' You go up, and I'll come up later.' So we laughed our heads off when we got up there, they'd given us twin beds. So we fooled them, we slept in both. [laughs]. And I saw, in the snowstorm, I saw off my groom, the best man, and sidesman all back to war. And I cried all the way home, because there was no buses and, in the snow, but it was the most wonderful wedding. No one could have had better, not even the Princess and the Prince. [Tape noises] And I must admit, I didn't get warm for a couple of days, because there were no windows in the church, and the organ was bombed, and the church was bombed, but my father was a choir boy in his youth, and his choir-master played piano, the grand piano for us, and we had everything that went with it. And we had Leibestraum [cries] Snivel. Because I've had Leibestraum every anniversary since, [through tears] because it is love, it's about love. Oh, I'm getting maudlin [laughs].
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Pauline Ferdinando
Creator
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Denise Boneham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFerdinandoP151005
Format
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00:40:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Pauline Fernando, widow of Harold William Fernando, reminisces her late husband. His father was posted in Germany after the First world War, where he met his wife. During the war he was stationed at Binbrook, Bath, and other stations, carrying out operations to Berlin, Peenemunde, Dresden, and Turin, followed by Operation Manna. Eventually he became a flying wing adjutant before retiring. She discusses meeting her husband and his family, family life, engagement and marriage, and wartime moral.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Somerset
Germany--Berlin
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Peenemünde
Germany--Dresden
Italy--Turin
Italy
Germany
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
home front
love and romance
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
RAF Binbrook
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/816/10798/AFarrAA170712.2.mp3
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Title
A name given to the resource
Farr, Allan Avery
A A Farr
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Allan Farr DFM (1923 - 2018, 1434564 Royal Air Force) as well as his flying logbook, a photograph, list of operations, a map, contemporary photograph and a song. He flew operations as an air gunner with 100, 625 and 460 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Allan Farr and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-12
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Farr, AA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 12th of July 2017 and we’re in Barnwood, Gloucester with Allan Farr, DFM to talk about his life and times. So, Alan what are your earliest recollections of life?
AF: Well, the earliest recollection that I, that I can think of is school. Although you had to be four and a half or five to go to the juniors, but I started off by going to, let me think now for a minute [pause] Benedict’s Road School. Which was in Small Heath. I can remember going each morning through Digby Park to get to the school from the place where we lived in Floyer Road, Small Heath. That was pretty well straightforward then. The only time I had any ruckus at school was when my teeth became bad and I had to go to the dentist and he took eight double teeth out. Now, for a child off five I can remember all of that. And I can remember my mother of course going with me and saying, ‘Now, you behave yourself.’ [laughs] As if somebody wouldn’t behave themselves in the, in the dental bloody trade. And of course they hadn’t got all the equipment then because what was I? Five and a half. Six and a half. All through eating sugary stuff. But my teacher was named Miss Walters and when she said, ‘Why were you away from school for two or three days?’ I forget what it was now. And I said to her, ‘It’s because I had some teeth out ma’am.’ ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘You must let me see this. Open your mouth.’ And she ran her finger around the gums that I’d got now instead of teeth. See. And that at the age appalled me. And I went home. And I never went to that school again.
CB: Oh right.
AF: Simply because of the disbelief. And I, I went then to Somerville Road School which I think was the junior school. That was on the Green Lane. And funnily enough we moved home then to live in Palace Road which was sort of lined up, if you think of it as a gun barrel onto the school that I was going to go to. And that little thing is, that’s that one thing has remained in memory, oh forever you know. The school. I had good friends. One passed away a few years ago. Frank Aden. I could never understand why I couldn’t do my muffler up like him. He had a lovely wool muffler and it seemed to fill this area because he fluffed it up. And I had a thin scarf from my mother which used to tie around my neck and slowly encircle me you know, sort of thing. We used to do a lot of bicycle riding but only locally. But used to stay out well until half past eight, 9 o’clock, you know. Otherwise and that it was purely a child’s life. My father worked at the coal stores in town. He used to take me to work with him on a Saturday because I enjoyed, enjoyed being with the workers in the coal stores. You know. One of those things that other children hadn’t got, I suppose. But, and the Market Hall was very, very close to the [unclear] Mansel’s Coal Stores. And I liked the market, I liked the flavour of the market. Men and women altogether working away. Every sort of stall you could think, think of. Even to its, its own animal, little animal zoo which I thought was lovely to have in a town because Birmingham was a big place. But slowly grew up until my only, what can you say? My only sort of adventure left was to work actually in the Market Hall itself. Which I did do finally at Reg Johnson’s Fish Monger and Poulterer and I was there until unfortunately the Market Hall got bombed and became a wreck. But the council, what they did made sort of daylight stalls where people could rent either a fish and poultry shop or a flower shop or anything that would make a shop and you were given a stall. And that I stopped at until I was eighteen and a quarter when I joined up because my father was now in uniform as a second lieutenant. Regained his commission. And we saw him on regular sort of trips back home. And I thought he was quite magnificent [laughs] as a child you know. For getting on for twelve, thirteen, fourteen then. Left school at fourteen. Went straight to the Market Hall. Straight to Reg Johnson who was a friend of my father’s and I began work at fourteen in the Market Hall. And it seemed to me that my what, my finest dream had been recognised by somebody somewhere because now I worked in the market and that’s what I’d always wanted. Not much really but it was, it was a life on its own. The market was quite full of good people you know. Working class of course but they were at it all the time. And I had one or two little adventures in the market but nothing really much. One of them was I’d not long left them and I was in blue. In the RAF. And I was stationed in civilian lodgings in Blackpool but I was on duty this one day with a rifle and five rounds of ammunition and a whistle. And I was guarding Derby Baths. If you know perhaps of the size of it I had to walk around along the front with a rifle at the slope. And I was doing just that one day and something I remember is I could see from the corner of my eye even though I was walking up and down with a rifle outside the Derby Baths an RAF officer coming from my right to walk past me. So I thought, right I’d better recognise him somehow because of his rank. He’s an officer. I could tell by the quality of his overcoat. And as he came to me I got the rifle at the slope and I saluted him by putting my fingers to my right temple and he walked on a few paces. Then he stopped and came back and he said, ‘Do you know sonny, one of us has done wrong here and I don’t know which one it is.’ And he turned around and walked away again. All is forgiven sort of thing. I should have saluted him on the butt of course [laughs] But that was a small adventure that always stuck with me because he was so nice about it. And I thought I’ve joined the right mob for a start off, you know. They’re alright. They forgive you quickly. But otherwise than that I was stationed at Croydon and stationed at St Mawgan down in Cornwall until it came my turn to go for training for an air gunner which was about twelve months later because they were really filled up with all sorts of people wanting to do their bit. And the next thing we know, I think it was either twenty eight or forty of us all wanting training as air gunners finished up on the docks at Liverpool looking for a boat called the [pause] We were going to Canada anyhow. Can’t think of the name of the boat and it’s rather important because we were going to go through miles and miles and miles of the same sort of boat. A nine knot convoy it was. And I can’t think of the name of the boat now. Should be able to. But we were found jobs on board a lovely little ship. A nine thousand tonner, if you can say, you know a nice little ship but it was all the corridors down below decks were done with cedar and different named woods. It turned out to be an ATA boat which was an Air Transport boat, which was Air Transport Auxiliary and they would fly planes over, be sorted out and go back on a boat to fly some more planes over. So I thought that was very clever. So we had a good boat to go across to Canada. We landed at Halifax. But it was a nine knot convoy so I think it took us about fifteen days to do the trip across the North Sea. I hope I’ve got that right. Geography never was my good class. But anyhow we settled off. While I was being in England I’d become a member of the RAF boxing team with the very clever reason that because they wanted my name on the programme. Farr. Because Tommy Farr was the boxer then and he was getting ready to fight Joe Louis [laughs] That was another thing that my name sorted. Sorted me out. But that’s what it was. And what happened was of course when we got to Halifax in Canada immediately I was, I became another member of the RAF Canada apostrophe [pause] in the boxing team. I caught some very nice blows as well. I didn’t do very well. They all had more experience than me but I stuck to it. And there we did our training and we went back on the Elizabeth. It took us sixteen days crossing. Fifteen, sixteen days crossing in a nine thousand ton boat. And going back home we landed up north in Scotland and we had to be ferried by small boats across from where the Elizabeth lay to where the harbour was because the boat was too big for the harbour. So, that was another little adventure. And on one occasion going across I was in the small boat taking us to the harbour when it crossed in front of the Elizabeth where she lay and it’s amazing the size of that boat. And my job on board with a rifle and no ammunition, I don’t think I looked very trustworthy was to guard the foot of the stairs leading to the bridge in case of any trouble. But I suppose I was supposed to hit them with the rifle and not shoot them because I’d got no ammunition. I always felt wrong about that somehow or other. Still. And also we, we were given the location which we were to call the sergeant’s mess because we were sergeants now. Now we were trained aircrew. And the first meal I had or second or third meal I had on the Elizabeth was breakfast on a boarded up [pause] Oh, it was a boarded up swimming pool and that’s, with trestle tables and chairs, that’s where we had our sergeant’s meal twice a day. And one of the waiters coming out brought me my breakfast and it was a man I’d worked for in the Birmingham Market Hall named Jack Bickerstaff. And he never spoke to me and I’d worked for him as an employee for some time. And he never spoke to me. I never spoke to him except to say, ‘Thank you.’ But what I felt like saying was, ‘You sit down and eat my breakfast.’ It looked like he needed it. But I hadn’t got the pluck and I didn’t see him again. But I found out that he’d been passing communist literature around somewhere where he was stationed in Canada so they booted him back again on the Elizabeth. Back to be demobbed. Not wanted. That’s terrible for a grown man isn’t it? But anyhow it happened. Never saw him again. Joined [pause] went from there to Croydon. That’s from Chipping Warden to Croydon. Then we were warned off about going on a course to become air gunners. We’d already done the basic training in Canada. We were only there sort of three months but they asked me if I wanted to join the Canadian Royal Air Force because I knew more about aircraft recognition than they did. It had been my hobby and they wanted me to become an instructor in Canada. But I thought long and hard about it but what my father would have thought about it I don’t know. So I stayed as I was and went back home to win the war. That’s [laughs] all I can say about that period. He’d, my father unfortunately was becoming an ill man so he had to finish. He was demobbed and Ansell’s, the publican people gave him a pub in Wolverhampton for somewhere to live and to run. Which he did with my mother, Faye. And I was of course in the RAF and now I was doing circuits and bumps in a Wellington at Lichfield because that was the name of the aerodrome where they trained air gunners. And next thing we know we did our final trip which was to Paris where we dropped leaflets. And then we went to my first Squadron which was 100 Squadron. Used to be a fighter Squadron during the war 100 Squadron but it was bomber now and it was Wellingtons. In Canada we trained on Fairey Battles and I sat with a Vickers gas operated machine gun on a Scarfe mounting. But that was soon all over. They didn’t spend a lot of time with us with training. To go from a single Scarfe mounted machine gun to a turret with four automatic machine guns took some beating really. But times being what they were you didn’t moan. You just got on with it. And so I passed my air gunner’s test. The way they crewed us up they’d got seven different categories of crew at Chipping Warden. No. Not Chipping Warden. At Lichfield, which was our Operational Training Unit. We went there to train to be air gunners in turrets. And a daunting thing it was as well because all the turrets were so complicated and yet so basic. You know. You either loved it or left it. But I stuck it out. And then we were called together, the seven different categories of crew and we were all shepherded in to the officer’s mess and we were told to sort ourselves out in crews. They found this was the, the better way. That like would attract like, I presume. I don’t know. But we had, I think there was [pause] it takes a bit of figuring out. Seven in a crew. And then we had to form I think it was twenty crews all with seven in. And had to report to somebody at a desk as you are writing all our names down in lots of sevens because that’s what the crews were going to be. And that’s what they were doing all over England I presume to get crews together. They had to train them all. But of course pilot’s training was running to a year or more than that. And navigators was a long course. But I got my little air gunner’s brevet and I was happy as I was. My father was pleased. My mother was worried. But that’s how it all was at that time. And so we finished up on the Squadron, 100 Squadron as operational. Which I thought was great. I had worries. But as long as my mother and father didn’t worry I wasn’t going to worry. But I think they were good actors basically. Yeah. We were on the Squadron now.
CB: We’re going to pause just for a minute.
AF: As you wish.
CB: Yeah. Only —
[recording paused]
AF: Yeah.
CB: So just going back a bit the interesting thing is that you and your future wife joined the RAF together but how did you come to go to the bureau to sign up and —
AF: In Dale End.
CB: Yes.
AF: It was a Recruiting Office. And the three recruiting offices had taken over offices in Dale End. Navy, Army, Air Force. And the air force as far I was concerned was all that was needed because the flight sergeant who was the recruiting officer or sergeant when I said to him an air gunner he said, ‘That’s the sort of thing we want.’ he said, ‘Anybody else like you at home or anything?’ I said, ‘No, sir. Just me.’ He said, ‘Oh well, you’ll have to do. Good luck.’ I said, ‘Thank you.’ And my wife unfortunately was nine, eighteen months older than me and she went away quicker to be in the forces properly. And my mates. I was working at Mac Fisheries then because we’d been told that the coal stores was becoming a Reserved Occupation and we wouldn’t be able to join up. So we’d better get a move on and make up our minds and that’s why we went on that Saturday. She joined the RAF, the WAAF. I joined the RAF to train as an air gunner. And I was content with life. I can’t think of remembering anything absolutely wrong.
CB: How did they encourage you to join a particular specialty? So —
AF: Oh no. No.
CB: Did they ask you what you wanted to do?
AF: No. I said to the flight sergeant, ‘What’s the quickest way to get in to the RAF? What’s the quickest way to become useful in the RAF?’ He said, ‘Become an air gunner.’ I said, ‘Well, put me down for that please, flight sergeant. That’ll suit me.’ I didn’t know they were killing them off as quick as they were training them [laughs] So he’d earned his Kings Shilling for the day hadn’t he? Eh? Yeah.
CB: Did it well. You went out to Canada.
AF: Yes. For training.
CB: So how did that, so you landed at Halifax. Then what?
AF: Well —
CB: You had this long trip.
AF: Yes. And we were treated quite nicely and treated properly but they had, they couldn’t put us into an Air Gunnery School because all the schools they’d got were full. So we had to wait at Halifax. No. We went from Halifax to Moncton which was like another holding station if you like for trainees. And we were taught rudimentary air gunnery at Moncton. But the real training came back home in England. They hadn’t got the equipment. And in fact they asked me and this is true, they asked me to stay. There was an opportunity for me to stay as a trainee instructor on aircraft recognition at Moncton. And I said, ‘Oh, no. No. I want to carry on and work my way through. I want to become an air gunner properly.’ They said, ‘But you won’t be involved in the war and you’ll certainly get your ranks come automatically. You know, if you spend two or three years at Moncton you’ll, you’ll have the rank of whatever is awarded to you.’ No. No. It wasn’t what I wanted. I said, ‘My father wouldn’t like it anyhow. Let’s get back home and help them there.’ ‘Oh,’ they said, ‘Alright. If that’s your attitude.’ I said, ‘It’s not my attitude. It’s my feelings.’ And that’s exactly what it was.
CB: You’d got an urge to actually do something that you regarded as practical.
AF: And quickly.
CB: And contributory.
AF: Yeah. But it took me, oh another must have been ten months before I got through to my course. Then you had to go on another course to get yourself prepared for what a rear turret was. Or a mid-upper turret. They never told you about these things but you’d obviously have to use them so they put you on a course. Another separate course for the use of a turret with four guns or with two guns. So I was happy enough with a turret with four guns. I thought you’ve got twice as many as the other people on the mid upper turrets, you know. And I played my part and that was it as far as I can make out. Had a marvellous crew. I had a good crew. The first crew I had was one with the wireless operator in named Brockbank. Here’s the crew. As small as it is.
CB: Excellent. Yeah.
AF: That’s the first crew. And not much else we could do. And we did our training and our final bout of training was to, I’ll pass it to the gentleman here.
[pause]
AF: We had to go, not bomb Paris but to drop leaflets on Paris. You’ve possibly heard this story before.
CB: Keep going.
AF: Yeah. And it was in a Wellington and I was, there was no mid-upper so the wireless operator took over the part of the other gunner if was necessary. And his name was Brocklebank. He’d got an L in it for a start off. And if you think of coming up the fuselage of a Wellington. Not all that big but far bigger than a Spitfire or a Hurricane. And then when you came to where your shoulder would be near the pilot and you’d be down a step you’d be heading for the bomb aimer’s position. And we had a lovely bomb aimer because he had to be woken up to drop the bombs [laughs] I haven’t made that up. God honest. Because the pilot got used to the, to the habit of saying, ‘Give the bomb aimer a kick.’ [laughs] because he’d be asleep going to the target. He thought it was all a load of bunkum. This business of doing that there and the other. But [Noel Macer] his name was and he was a lovely chap basically but he did like his little, his little ways you know. A bit nutty if you like but he was genuine enough. And that’s what they used the Wellingtons for which were pretty useless for anything else actually.
CB: Just on your Paris trip.
AF: Yes.
CB: How many planes went with you and how many came back?
AF: Only, only, we only went on our own. We had to follow the navigational plot that they’d got for us to cross over the Channel. The western France. Follow their route because this was, this was a trip for the whole seven members of the crew. Navigator, bomb aimer, pilot, who was a beautiful pilot. No doubt about it at all. And we all hoped to stick together because that was the plan. Not to stick with other people.
CB: No.
AF: Your own men sort of thing. And we did.
CB: So, going back to your training in Canada you said it was quite short. So what bomb aimer training did you have there on the ground or in the air?
AF: Oh, no. We only had air gunners.
CB: I meant to say air gunner. Sorry.
AF: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. What air gunner training did you have on the ground?
AF: Well —
CB: And in the air in Canada.
AF: We wondered what a dome building was. Made of brick. The second or third day of our training they took us in there and I still don’t remember. I’ve got the photograph of this. It was experimental group that we were with. They were all air gunners. All training as air gunners. But we went in this domed building and what it was it was domed and also it was painted white inside and there was a moving platform as well with equipment like this sort of thing but much bigger which threw an enemy fighter on to the curved area of this dome. And you sat in a turret which moved about on a long sort of pole and you had two guns but it was a cinemata. A camera. And you actually, as you supposedly blazed away at this one aircraft that was being shot on to this dome interior of the domed building it was all being kept on film. And you were told what the lead was and how, how far you would have to fire in front of one of the planes to make a hit while you were doing it sort of thing. It was very, very clever in its way and it gave you the feelings of what you were doing were worthwhile. But you were glad to go home.
CB: This is called deflection shooting.
AF: Deflection shooting. Quite right. That’s right.
CB: Now, what about flying in the air. Because they were Fairey Battles in Canada. Did you get —
AF: Ah, well, I got into trouble. The only time in my service. But we were at an RAF station down south in Cornwall.
CB: St Eval or somewhere like that, was it?
AF: St Eval. Yeah, well St Eval was north of, of St Mawgan.
CB: Yeah.
AF: St Mawgan. We used to fly when, when you did fly you flew off a cliff into the great blue yonder sort of business.
CB: Yeah.
AF: We did our share of flying at Cornwall.
CB: But in Canada did you fly in a Battle in your training there?
AF: Yes. We did. We did flying in a Fairey Battle with a pilot in the cockpit and then you sat in the open cockpit at the back with the Vickers gas operated machine gun. But it was so cold and very often it was twenty and thirty below, and to fire your machine gun you had to jam it against the side of the fuselage with the rifle part sticking out over the side of the aircraft and you had, you fired the gun several times. That was to blew the interior to let it see, let it see that it had been fired. But what we were doing actually was using one, one case of, of machine gun bullets and when we thought we’d downed or blew the inside of the machine gun we held the rest. We knocked the spring off and held the rest over the side the fuselage and it spun all the bullets out into the River St Lawrence below because it was just too cold to aim.
CB: Yeah.
AF: And most of the pilots were either Polish or foreign. Foreign people who hardly understood us but they were flying us so we had to be nice to them. And when we’d finished unloading all the bullets we crawled up the interior of the fuselage and tapped the pilot on the left shoulder. That was the only way you could talk. He had no intercom at all. And they knew right away that that tap meant back home, land, breakfast or dinner, what was on and that was it.
CB: How did they tell you about your scores in your practice?
AF: Oh. It was all a bit ridiculous really. This is my logbook. It’s got everything in there that I did. And in the back couple of pages is the programme and proficiency assessments. Here we are, sir. Oops sorry. That’s it.
CB: Ok. But it didn’t last very long in Canada.
AF: Well, once we’d gone through all the manoeuvres and the air to air firing and air to, there would be a Fairey Battle would tow like a long stocking.
CB: A drogue.
AF: A drogue. And you had to wait until he passed you because obviously one or two got excited and started firing at the plane. Which didn’t help a lot, you know but [laughs] it was all in good, good sport. No doubt about that.
CB: How much damage did the planes get?
AF: No. Well, we had several talkings to. Let’s put it that way. What not to do and it was meant what not to do was to fire at that bleeding plane. ‘The drogue’s what you fire at, you bloody fool. You’ll never become an air gunner,’ you know. But you did. They needed them too badly. But that’s true that is. Yeah. I would have placed him in the same spot as the bloke who said I was wrong at Derby Baths [laughs] But they did their best. Everybody did their best then.
CB: So when you then returned as you said you went to the OTU.
AF: That’s right.
CB: And what did you do at the OTU?
AF: That was —
CB: At Lichfield.
AF: That was, to start off we did nothing else but circuits and bumps. And this was to get the pilot familiarised with his crew and what they’d got to do because you had, we had to sit at our positions. Mind you we only had six in the crew because they had no mid-upper turrets then. Those came later. But we had mock ups and we used to run around outside on the grass with people with rifles. And the runners were taking model aircraft of quite some size and we had to run with those so that the ones with rifles could work out what the lead was ahead of the flying aircraft. But they did their best. They did their best. That’s about all you can say. Because they were, this was done in groups of sort of thirty or forty. You know. And you didn’t get, have your bomb aimers with you or the pilots. They were away doing other courses. But it all came together in the end. We were all re-joined again and made into aircrew.
CB: But at the, at the OTU you formed the crew.
AF: That’s right.
CB: How did you do that?
AF: At the, we were told to go to the big lounge in the officer’s mess and we were given a pen, a pencil and paper and we sat around in chairs. We had a chat with people. They made us cups of tea. Who did you like? Who didn’t you like? Who treated you well? And who, blah blah blah. But the whole idea was for you to form a crew of six on your own which you did.
CB: Yeah.
AF: And you could always be told that for any reason at all you could leave the six at any time as long as you gave a specific reason. You know. But nobody did. Everybody stuck with who they’d got. And then we had the same number of crew forwarded in a few days time. And they were the engineers because we were going on to four engine aircraft and they would be needed, engineers to balance out petrol and all that when you were flying.
CB: This was going to the Heavy Conversion Unit.
AF: Heavy. That’s right. Yeah.
CB: So where was that?
AF: Blyton? I think. I think that name sort of sticks somehow or other.
CB: Ok.
AF: But we only stopped there a week. That was all. Just to get the crew together and to get the engineer to balance his petrol flows and everything else which was rather important.
CB: So you’re on a four engine aeroplane now. What is it?
AF: A Lancaster.
CB: Right. Ok. How did you like that?
AF: Thought it was great. Well, I did. Of course you had to stay in your positions. You had to take everything very seriously but as long as you could aim and use your turret. And you got your fair share of orange juice in the little tins. They used to freeze as well when you went on ops but you weren’t told about that. Bloody orange juice. You had to get it open with the cocking lever to a machine gun inverted and one hand on top of it and the other put the orangeade on the, well the orange juice on your knee and keep hitting it. When you got through you found the bleeding stuff was frozen. We had our disappointments as well but that’s true that is. Yeah. Yes. I had my eyes freeze up once. The wireless operator, Bobby Brockbank on instructions from the pilot had to come down, open my turret, rear turret, lay me down flat and put his heating gloves on my face because they’d had, we’d had instructions that they were going to take Perspex out of the turrets so they wouldn’t get dirtied. The surface of the turret. But they never thought about the wind bringing the bloody rain in on us. We used, we used to get soaked. And my eyes actually froze up where I couldn’t open them and I couldn’t speak properly. As though everything was frozen. Started to change our minds a bit then but once you got back home people talked you out of things. But it was scary that was. When you couldn’t see. What bleeding good’s an air gunner if you can’t see? Phew. It annoyed me I can tell you. But that was true that was. That was true.
CB: So, from Blyton, from the HCU, you went to 100 Squadron. Where was 100 Squadron stationed?
AF: White Waltham. Near Grimsby.
CB: Waltham.
AF: Waltham. Yeah. That’ll do.
CB: Yeah.
AF: When we’d done eighteen trips and believe it or not at eighteen operational flights in 1943, when you’d done eighteen trips you were experienced. There was Berlins. There was Colognes. There was Essens. There was all sorts of famous German towns that we must have caused awful wreckage at, you know. But it had to be done. It wasn’t a game and that was the end of that sort of thing. You went and you hoped to come back. That’s what we called our plane at [pause] what was the name of 100 Squadron? Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
AF: At Waltham.
CB: At Waltham. Yeah.
AF: Yeah. We’d go. We’d come back after the famous radio funny man.
CB: Oh, Lord Haw Haw.
AF: Hmmn?
CB: Lord Haw Haw.
AF: No. No. No. He was English.
CB: Oh, funny man. Right.
AF: Yeah. Funny man. A comedian. We go. We come back. He was talking to the natives of course.
CB: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
AF: But that’s what we called our aircraft. Oh, and I hope you don’t mind but when we did our first operational flight to Paris to drop the paperwork. The —
CB: The leaflets.
AF: It was to talk the Germans in Paris out of fighting the war. But of course that was useless but that was part of our training that was.
CB: Yeah.
AF: And there was a front bulkhead door which meant to say if the wireless operator, Bobby had to get in to the front turret there was a big door. Must have been like that and like that that was held by two locks. And that’s, the air gunner if he was going to do an air gunner job in the front turret he had to be locked in that because the air was so great coming through if it was open that the, the Wellington used to take the attitude of a, of a Whitley. And that was a nose down flight. They reckon there was that many Whitleys got away with it because the Germans aimed ahead of the apparent motion and they were firing here and the Whitley was flying above them if you like to think of it that way. And that broke away from its moorings. That bulkhead door broke away. We couldn’t even fasten it. We’d got nothing to fasten it with. There was two locks this side and hinges that side and it was the hinges that broke through constant use. And we just had to sort of sit and wonder you know what it was all about really. Nothing you could do about it but they soon repaired it. Didn’t destroy it.
CB: With —
AF: That was part of the other story.
CB: Yes. That’s ok. So you said with 100 Squadron after eighteen trips.
AF: After eighteen.
CB: What was the significance of eighteen trips?
AF: Well, we had to, we joined three more crews from four more Squadrons and we formed 625 Squadron with those extra men. Well, they weren’t extra. They were extra to the Squadron that was being formed. We thought it was quite an honour because now we’d got different mates and different people but we had psychologists and psychiatrists come along and taught us. Talk to us about how we felt about doing operations and losses and all that business. And they asked us not to make too strong friends of any of the other crews but to make friends of our own crew. Look upon them as brothers and all that. I thought it a load of cobblers but they tried it out and the idea was that you weren’t [pause] you weren’t affected, or you shouldn’t be affected by the loss of other aircrew. It’s your own aircrew you had to stand by sort of thing. Some enjoyed it and some disliked it but it was up to them. But I suppose to a certain extent it had to work because they didn’t want too many moaners. But we formed 625. And what happened then, we had Stan [pause] We had the navigator. I can give you his first name. I can’t think of his second. He lived, he lived in Lincoln. His father worked in the steel works. Course the one thing that people disliked but they were shot out in their hundreds I believe by the aircrew and that was a telegram. And of course Stan Cunningham. Stan Cunningham, he sent his laundry on a regular basis home to his mother in Lincoln because we weren’t far from Lincoln at Grimsby. And she used to send them back in about four or five days ironed and pressed and aired and great. None, none the rest of us bothered. We tried to wash our stuff or fancied a pretty WAAF and get her to do the washing if you could [laughs] I was lucky at times. Very nice. Dizzy, the WAAF hairdresser was allowed in the men’s area for cutting hair. She was the Squadron hairdresser, you know. A lovely girl as well. But you couldn’t do much about it. One of them things. Just get your hair cut and get out of it. A shame. Are you alright? Good. And we did, we were told by the, the weather people that when we came back that night, we were going to Stettin which was farther east then Berlin. So it was a long trip and a cold trip too because it was I think it was October, November, December, one of them months. And unfortunately Stan got hit in his little navigator’s cubicle and lost part of his, his leg. So of course we pressed on sort of thing and dropped our bombs but we remembered what the Met people had told us. And the, one of the Met men told the skipper, he said, ‘When you leave the French Coast,’ he said, ‘Lose height because you’ll be able to tell when you hit England just what the weather is like. See in the distance.’ And it was all the searchlights that were set up because every Squadron had its own searchlight pattern and you could see it for miles away and you headed for it because you wanted to get down. But [pause] I don’t know what. Oh, it got to the point where poor Stan was losing a lot of blood and we couldn’t do much about it because he’d lost the thick part of the left leg. And the skipper said to call up Mayday. He said, ‘It’s the last request but call up Mayday and let’s get Stan somewhere where he can get some treatment.’ We called up and we happened to be in [pause] there was thick fog. We called up Mayday. Mayday. Mayday. All the time until it got answered and we only, ‘We got you. We’ve got you on our — ‘
CB: On the radar.
AF: Hmmn?
CB: On the radar.
AF: Yes. ‘We’ve got you on the radar.’ On the H2S. Whatever it was, ‘And we’ll get, get you directed to us. And we’re also equipped with FIDO.’ Now, FIDO was the —
CB: Fog clearing system.
AF: Fog clearing system. Yeah. And we saw them. We more or less saw the FIDO switched on. And it sort of cut a long piece of cake out of the fog. And the skipper nipped in very very quickly and got the wireless op to call up that we had wounded aboard. One wounded aboard. Because we were quite lucky, you know. Over the trips. And we landed and the moment we landed they switched the flames off because all the flame burners were down each runway and they could switch them on. But we landed and I helped get Stan to the, helped carry him. We had to lay him out. We had no stretcher. We had to lay him out on a board of some sort we’d got and put him in the ambulance. And I heard from him sixty years later [laughs]
CB: How did that come about?
AF: Well, it was me that was dilatory. You’d think with flying with a brother that you’d want to know how he got on. But the world was moving on. We had to get another navigator. But we didn’t use him because they screened us to become instructors. So we lost that navigator and I had six months at Waterbeach where we had a demob centre of our own. And they were flying Liberators from Waterbeach to India. To aerodromes there where they were picking up I think it was fifteen or sixteen early army troops and they were bringing them to Waterbeach and they were demobbing them there. They’d got their clothes and everything. And we had our dip as well. The pilot used to leave us his carton of rations which had got sweets in and cigarettes and matches and all that. But at Waterbeach there was an officer by the name of Lancaster. You’ve got to remember his name, haven’t you? We were flying them. And also we was there at the time of my marriage to my wife. No. A year after my marriage to my wife. And she was due for demob because she was pregnant which I’m proud to say was all my doing [laughs] But a posting came through while I was getting married on D-Day. June the 6th ’44. With all the family and everything else at a, a white wedding at a church in Yardley, Birmingham. And when the marriage was over, was done and all that business we went all outside talking in groups. My father came to me and he said, ‘They’ve invaded son. You should be alright now.’ I said, ‘Well, it aint won yet, dad. Let’s face it,’ you know. ‘We’ve still got to fight them.’ He said, ‘Oh, well, yeah. I know.’ But he’d been demobbed out of the Army because his health wasn’t right. But Jean and I had a very nice honeymoon at the Lygon Arms, Broadway which was paid for by some Lord or other. Good luck to him. But this Lancaster unknownst to me was put in charge of the gunnery section because lieutenant Mussey was on leave. I was away. And so there was only a couple of instructors and this Lancaster. Unknownst to me he filled a form in for an air gunner to go back and he put my name down while I was enjoying my wedding. Well, of course when it came through the next time it should have been for Lancaster because he’d been away eighteen months. But it wasn’t. It was Farr for some unknown reason. I made no complaint because I was posted within two days and there’s quite enough to do when you’ve got to go somewhere else. I’d got to go to 460 Squadron, Binbrook and take my part there as an air gunner in a Lancaster. But I was only to do twenty trips. That was, that was the score then. Thirty and twenty. But why I put my name down, if a bloke was frightened and Lancaster was frightened to death then he’s a liability to his crew. And the only way they’ll find out is when they get in the aircraft. So I thought, ‘Well, I can do it. I’m strong enough.’ So I did. Mother and dad was upset, ‘Thought you’d done enough, son,’ and all that lark but there we are. My wife done her nut. But I had to do twenty more trips. Yeah. They said Farr was a devil for bloody punishment. They weren’t far wrong either because we were helping Pathfinder force on some occasions at Binbrook. Because Binbrook was Group Squadron. 1 Group Squadron. And we were always in sort of [pause] one of the things they did on us, I think it was the third or fifth trip, I forget now. There were too many trips. But they had fitted a small light to our Lanc and we were to fly it across the target, where ever it was, with this little light on. Well, of course a moving light at about twelve thousand feet is very obvious, isn’t it? And so we got plastered left right and bloody centre by the anti-aircraft fire. They knew very well we were going to bomb that place because we were attracting the attention of the anti- aircraft fire. That’s to deflect attention off the Pathfinder force.
CB: Oh right.
AF: But they soon stopped it because of losses. So, we were alright at Binbrook, 460. But it was still 1 Group and we were still flying Lancs. And I only had to do twenty because I’d done thirty. Well, leading up to thirty. So nobody said a word. But we had a haunting, haunting bloody trip. We went to Stettin. It was our seventeenth or eighteenth trip. We were flying a normal Lancaster. We were happy enough as a crew. But just as the bomb, the bomb aimer was about to open the turret doors the bomb, bombing doors where all the bombs were laid ready to drop the aircraft we were flying reared up like a stallion. Like on its hind legs. Just, just as it was. And then its nose dropped and down we went. Of course you’ve got to the right of the pilot’s seat a wheel and it’s called a trimming wheel. And that is connected to small ailerons on the wings and on the fin and rudder and on the tailplane. That’s the same. No, it isn’t. The tailplane’s the flat one. The fin and rudder’s the upright. It was connected by, it was connected to a smaller aileron on the bigger ailerons. And the whole idea was that if you went into a dive a Lancaster with its bomb load on or without its bomb load on was too heavy for one person to pull out of a dive. But if you got somebody standing by you who could slowly turn this wheel which was connected to the ailerons and the ailerons would move very slowly and they in turn would take the pressure off all the other moving parts and the skipper would be able to pull the aircraft out of the dive. But Stan was in a bad way. And we landed and we watched three of these big hefty sort of house building machines push the Lanc off the runway. Oh no. I’m sorry. I always get stuck on this part [pause] We made it and we shouldn’t have made it. We made it back to our aerodrome. 460 Squadron, Binbrook. I’m sorry.
Other: That’s alright.
AF: I’ve gone all wrong there.
Other: Yeah. From Stettin.
AF: Hmmn?
Other: From Stettin you came back.
AF: We came back all the way from Stettin.
Other: Even though she’d reared up and then gone into a dive.
AF: That’s right. Fortunately he had the bomb aimer there with him to ease the aircraft out of its dive.
Other: The wheel.
AF: That’s right.
Other: Yeah.
AF: With the wheel. And drew. We went over the target and the bomb aimer dropped the bombs. You can put your fingers through holes and pull away the hook. Bomb doors were open so we dropped our bombs because they were a bigger liability than anything else in the world there at the time. Turned around and we were at about six or eight thousand feet and of course [pause] we don’t know what had hit us but something burst into flame on our starboard side. We went into a dive so we were soon away from it. Then the skipper got her out of the dive, pulled her level and said, ‘We’d better have a look around our areas and see what damage had been done.’ If you can see it at all because you’ll find it all underneath. Another plane had hit us head on [laughs] it’s not, it’s not believable.
Other: A glancing blow.
CB: How did you know that? How did you know it had hit you head on?
AF: Because —
CB: The bomb aimer told you, did he?
AF: No. No. No. This thing on fire passed us on the right hand side but he must have hit us about three foot below our eye level because it skidded along the fuselage and then burst into flame and exploded. And that was it. His petrol went up. But it, I cannot tell it quick enough but that’s how it happened. It was all over and the next thing we know we were flying straight and level again at about six thousand feet because the wheel had worked. On the —
CB: What height was the collision?
AF: Oh, I don’t know.
CB: Roughly.
AF: May I read you a little, it’s only a small story because you had to put, we had put we had to put everything down but it might be in that. I don’t think so. “Operation Stettin. Collision with — “ [pause] I’ve got Lanc with a question mark behind it. “Ten miles before target area. Considerable damage to own aircraft. Carried on to bomb at twelve thousand feet.” There you are. There’s your thousand. Twelve thousand feet. We were on our way home and it was slowly getting light. We were in the air nine and three quarter hours. Nine hours and thirty five minutes. Skipper awarded Distinguished Flying Cross and [pause] no. We didn’t land with fog help. That was another trip. This trip, flying back from Stettin as soon as we cleared the English coast we went into Mayday. Mayday. All the time. Mayday. Until we were — no. No. No. Forget that. I’m sorry. But that that doesn’t apply to the raid on Stettin at all.
CB: I’ll tell you what. We’ll stop just for a mo.
AF: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Right. We’re just reconvening now about the Stettin situation.
AF: Yeah.
CB: Because it was a serious event obviously and unexpected. So what was happening? You were ready on the run in to Stettin.
AF: Yes. Yes. And the fighter must have been coming away from Stettin and suddenly I think it was as big a surprise to the fighter as it was to us because a normal way for a fighter to attack a plane is to have a curve of pursuit attack. Which is the way they are trained. But he can’t do a curve of pursuit from head on.
CB: So what, what so this aircraft came on head on at you?
AF: Well, no.
CB: Is that what you’re saying?
AF: You see, we didn’t even know that.
CB: No.
AF: All we know is suddenly our aircraft reared up to the point where it almost became impossible to fly because the pilot would have been on his back. And then suddenly this, this explosion to our starboard so that’s that plane done with. And then we went straight into a dive. And it’s impossible that you can stand on your feet when you’re in a Lanc that’s diving but the bomb aimer dropped all his bombs and his, his —
CB: So, he regained control of the aircraft.
AF: That’s right. And we were at twelve thousand feet. We lost about eight.
CB: So when you dropped the bombs you were low.
AF: Oh yes. We were low for a Lancaster.
CB: Right.
AF: And —
CB: And you were flying by then.
AF: And they all went. Yes. We were flying level.
CB: On how many engines?
AF: Two.
CB: Right.
AF: The outer engines. But I wondered sitting in the mid-upper turret. I mean I should have seen something. I mean it must have come as close as I am to you. The pilot of that. Because there’s only one in a single engine plane. And even then that’s guesswork. But forget that. Suddenly your plane is flying again normally and the engineer is going mad trying to balance his petrol up because if it maintained, keep his petrol from the two inner engines he’s got that spare to fly on the outers you see. Now, I’ve got to think. I’ve got to think Stettin. We didn’t come across any other aircraft. We were able to maintain our way back home. The [pause] this is, this is chronicled by the way in the RAF 460 Squadron thing in the —
CB: Is it? Good. Right. So we can pick that up there.
AF: Yes.
Other: So coming back now.
AF: That’s right.
Other: To Britain.
AF: Yeah.
Other: Do you do you call Mayday? Because you’re on two engines —
AF: No. No. No
Other: No. That’s where you mixed it up with the other one.
AF: There was a discussion amongst the crew. We were only doing a very low —
Other: Speed.
AF: low speed. That’s obvious because he was trying to maintain, keep whatever petrol he’d got.
Other: Yeah.
AF: For the later journey.
Other: Yeah.
AF: Because you’ve got to travel the full width of France.
Other: Yeah.
AF: If we’re over Stettin.
Other: Yeah.
AF: We’ve got all that.
CB: The width of Germany. Yes.
AF: All the width to the coast. See. But anyhow we were over France in daylight and we could not understand. Not any of us. Couldn’t understand why nobody came up to poke their nose in. They just left us.
Other: Very nice.
AF: If, if anybody had have come up they must have seen that the damage was horrendous. But we couldn’t see it could we? There was no way we could get out of the aircraft and have a look around. So we just left it like that and kept our fingers crossed. And we made it. And this is hardly believable. We made it back to our squadron. Sigh of relief. Sigh of relief. We wanted to hug everybody, you know. They stopped us from landing because they said, ‘You’ll damage your [unclear] will land and it will put the aerodrome out of commission altogether. It’ll no doubt crash. So will you please use the emergency crash ‘drome at Carnaby,’ which is in Scotland, see. We’d had no petrol for an hour. Well, of course it’s not registering on all the dials because the petrol is being used up. But anyhow, we had to say alright because they refused us entry and we went to Carnaby and its five runways. Bigger than all the other runways we’d ever seen and its different surfaces to land on. We picked the middle one and its right from the sea. They said, when we got on to control at Carnaby, they said, ‘There’s no other aircraft in the vicinity. You can go out to sea as far as you like and come in as slow as you like.’ And we didn’t know what he was trying to tell us at all but they didn’t like the look of it. You know. Anyhow, we had a chat together because we could all link up with the intercom on the plane and the skipper said, ‘I’m going to go out to sea again. I’m going to come in as slow as I possibly can,’ and he said, he looked at the bomb aimer and he said, ‘I want you to have your face pressed against the starboard window in the cockpit. You others can look through the small windows there are,’ down each side of the fuselage in the Lanc, ‘And you can tell the skipper anything you want that is useful. But for God’s sake no idle chatter,’ he said, ‘ Because what I’m going to try and do, I’m going to try and put the weight of the aircraft, and the wheels down if they’re working. If they’re not working then I’ve got to think again but we’ve got to get the wheels down and locked. So you get your faces against the little windows and my gunner, engineer will see about what petrol we’ve got and if we’re alright.’ And we came back in again then on to the middle runway. I don’t know what surface it was but he came in with the tail down. The port wheel, it, it was swinging and it came forward and it locked at an angle. The starboard wheel was just swinging. So that was going to be the trouble. The right hand one. So the skipper said to the bomb aimer, ‘Keep your eye on that starboard wheel, he said, ‘’m going to bring it in in any case. I’m bringing it in as slow as I can and as low as I can and the moment it touches the earth I’m going to pull the joystick back and put the weight on it.’ He said, ‘That’s all I can do,’ You know, ‘God bless you all and thank you very much.’ And we had to take up our crash positions either side of the main spar and look through the little windows and sure enough the right hand wheel was flapping. But suddenly the plane lurched and it come down and the wheel snapped, locked. The right hand wheel. [laughs] I see it now.
Other: Yeah.
AF: I can see it now. Locked. I thought thank God for that. We pulled up [pause] A wagon came out to pick us up as members of a crew. And there is on board the plane, on a chute behind the navigator’s little hut if you like, there’s a seven million candle power photoflash that goes out the chute of its own accord. Activated by the first bomb. So that travels down to the height where the bomb explodes and the photoflash is set off at the same time so that they get exactly where the bombs have landed.
Other: Right.
AF: And the plane pulled to a standstill and the skipper said, ‘I want you all out as quick as you can. The plane may explode.’ We don’t know what might happen after this. And so we all hurtled out. And the photoflash had been shook loose by the collision and had started its travel down the chute to go out with the first bomb. But instead of that the plane had hit it so it must have been under the aircraft. The German fighter had hit it and bent it in to the Lancaster like a screw into wood. Yeah. That was, you know a five hundred pound bomb going off on its own. We had a look around. Oh. Now then. I’ve missed a lump out here. Oh. I’m sorry. But I’d said to the skipper after the collision and we’d dropped the bombs, ‘I’m going to remain in the mid-upper skipper because I can see more from there than anybody else.’ ‘Alright, son. Do what you like as long as you’re helping.’ So I waited in that plane and I said to the crew about half an hour later, I give it time to settle, I said to the crew, ‘It looks like the port fin and rudder,’ and they’re like elongated eggs on a Lancaster, I said, ‘It looks like it’s badly damaged and its starting to move.’ I said, ‘I’m sorry about this but it’s true.’ I said, ‘So, wherever you are get your parachute close to you so at least you can get out of the aircraft,’ I said, and, ‘I’ll stop here. I’ll just keep my eye on that fin and rudder.’ As it grew lighter the fin and rudder wasn’t moving. But the plane had grazed its way down our fuselage and released loads and loads of this white metal and that had wrapped itself around the fin and rudder. And it was that that was shaking. So I called up the crew. I said, ‘The fin and rudder appears to be safe but I don’t know. But it won’t stand a lot of shaking about I can tell you that,’ I said, ‘But I’ve got to tell you because you need your parachutes with you.’ You know. I said, ‘I’m going to get mine now it’s got lighter. We can see we’ve got a plane.’ As I went to jump down from the half turret of the mid-upper gunner I felt somebody hammering on this part of the leg because I’m sitting on sort of, this is part of the dustbin and the guns are here. So I looked down. I could see out there and it’s the wireless operator again. Bobby Brockbank. And he’s going like this to me, up. Eyes. So I leant right over and looked down [laughs] and there was no plane. The H2S equipment which is bigger than that table, far bigger and like a pear shape, that had been thrown against the rear turret of the rear gunner. So, of course we thought about him then. So I said to, I motioned to Bobby. I said, move out of the way and I was able to climb down the fuselage inside because it was all long lengths of metal. So I got down and we moved all that junk from behind the rear gunner so that he could get out and have his, drink his orange juice if he wanted to. But what we did then is we sat ourselves in the, in the spaces where the main spar is joined to the fuselage. We had four of us in there in holds. So that was better. And then yeah what a fool. What a bloody idiot. We had this, this bloke we were nearing the coast and you could see fog and we called up Mayday. Mayday. Mayday continually all the time. And finally they called us back and said, ‘If you go on to — ’ [pause] oh what do they call them? Bloody. ‘If you go, if you go on route — ’ such and such, ‘You’ll hit our aerodrome and you’ll see the fog lights are on. You can land. There’s no other plane about.’ And we did this and landed straightaway. He put the aircraft down plonk and the wheels shot forward [laughs] you know. How do you look at it? It’s nothing else but pure bloody marvellous. You know. We did a little dance. At least we were flying still. We landed, pulled up, and immediately they sent three of these bulldozers out to push the aircraft off the spot where we had landed to all, there was all crashed aircraft there. Piles of them. They sent a van out for us. None of us were hurt which is remarkable in itself. We were ferried back. Carnaby back to Binbrook. Twenty five minutes. That’s how far it was. So we were so lucky. It doesn’t bear thinking of. When I called up that lovely crew and told them about the strips of, not the strips, no that the fin and rudder was shaking. I honestly thought it was shaking. I wasn’t trying to enlarge upon our dilemma. That, that was all that thin strips of metalised stuff. You know. And to see the photoflash turned around and bedded in to the side of the aircraft. It was near miraculous it didn’t go off because it was supposed to go off. You know. And what do you do?
CB: Extraordinary.
AF: Did a little, oh and underneath the mid-upper turret where I was sitting you could see daylight straight through the fuselage [laughs] and I’m not building the story up. You know.
CB: So when you were first hit and the aircraft reared up what went through your mind?
AF: Well, I thought for a moment that, that the pilot had had a heart attack or fainted as some did and he’s, he wasn’t driving straight. You know. What do you do? What do you think of? You see all, all your relatives and hope that they’re all alright but you think to yourself don’t start thinking about them. Nothing to do with it. Mind you we were Stettin away from England which was a good two and a half to three hours flying at the speed we were going. So I thought to myself at the time I wish Lancaster had been here. Naughty. But there we are.
CB: We’ll just take a break there. Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: We talked, you talked a bit earlier about the navigator getting his leg, Stan. Wounded.
AF: That’s right.
CB: So how, first of all how did he become wounded? What happened exactly?
AF: Anti-aircraft fire.
CB: Right.
AF: Coming through the fuselage.
CB: Right. So it was shrapnel.
AF: Shrapnel.
CB: Which took out a good section of his leg.
AF: Actually took it away.
CB: Yes. So then coming to the nearer time. Sixty years later what happened?
AF: The phone went. ‘Is that Allan Farr?’ I said, ‘Yes, it is. Who’s that?’ He said, ‘It’s Stan. Your lovely navigator. What are you doing this time of the morning?’ I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t believe it. I’d always expected him to have a very, very, very dicey leg and even to be in a chair and wheeled about you know. And I thought to myself then and he said, ‘Are you still there?’ I said, ‘Yes. I’m in shock you silly cow. I’m in shock [pause] Have you got any hobbies?’ He said, ‘Yes. My wife and I go fell walking.’
[telephone ringing]
AF: [laughs] Fell walking.
Other: [laughs] Without a leg.
CB: Amazing.
Other: Yeah.
CB: So, what did you say to that?
AF: I burst into tears.
CB: Oh, did you?
AF: He said, ‘You aint crying are you?’ I said, ‘Stan, thank goodness. Oh.’ I said, ‘The number of times I’ve been going to write to the RAF section which would look after anybody who, you know.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m, I’ve got a job. I’m still working. I’m doing electrical stuff but only, only on paper,’ you know. ‘And I’m married. I’ve got a lovely wife.’ I said, ‘Well, you know this is great.’ And I was still crying. Funny isn’t it?
CB: Did you get to meet him?
AF: Yes. We went up to Lincoln. Stayed two nights. And really it was so very, very nice just to see him come in a room. Funny walk but he wasn’t putting it on.
CB: So what was his side of the story?
AF: Pardon?
CB: What was his side of the story that he told you? So after he’d been wounded what did he tell you had happened?
AF: He was put straight into an ambulance. And that was the aerodrome that had got the —
Other: FIDO.
AF: FIDO. That’s right. FIDO. The fog dispersal thing. And he got his old job back. But we went and saw him. We enjoyed their company. They enjoyed ours. We got talking about different things. We didn’t go again because it upset me too much to see him.
CB: But as a curiosity what about his wound? How did he describe —
AF: Well —
CB: How that had been dealt with?
AF: You have, you carry, I think it’s a half a dozen in the medical pack which is by the, in the, by the bomb aimer’s compartment. And they’re a tube like that with a very, very long spidery point. And what you have to do is, and it wasn’t me that did it. I don’t think I could have done. Now, who could it be? It could have been the bomb aimer [Noel Macer]. It couldn’t have been the skipper because he couldn’t leave his seat. But what it is you break the top off and it leaves a very jagged long sharp thing which now of course is laudanum or something coming out. And you stick that in the wound. I don’t know if I got it right. But I had to look away. I mean I’m a big brave bloody air gunner.
CB: It’s morphine is it?
AF: Hmmn?
CB: It’s morphine.
AF: Morphine. That’s right. Yeah. But dear Stan. He was a lovely fella. He was. I said to him, ‘You’re nearly good enough to be an air gunner.’ [laughs]
CB: We’ll stop there again.
AF: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: So in an aircraft we’re talking about here the Lancaster there’s a mid-upper gunner and there’s a rear gunner. Now, you did some time as a rear gunner but in this case you were sitting in the mid-upper.
AF: Yeah. I was.
CB: So what was the situation there?
AF: When I went on my second tour it was the mid-upper gunner that needed to be replaced so you take that position. You can’t mess about. Or if in the case of Stan they almost immediately put another gunner [pause] No. Put another navigator into his place so that the plane could still keep flying.
CB: Yes.
AF: Because I did, I think four or five more trips after that. Then I left the crew. Went around and shook all their hands. And one of them spat in my face. He said, ‘You could have stayed.’
CB: Gee.
AF: Because they get used to you. They get to trust you.
CB: It was that emotional was it? He felt, what did he feel to make him do that?
AF: Well, he felt the lack of a good gunner.
CB: So what did he say when he spat in the face, in your face?
AF: Well, ‘You can piss off as far as I’m concerned.’
CB: That dramatic.
AF: Well —
CB: Because you —
AF: They get to rely upon you.
CB: But you are all the family aren’t you?
AF: That’s right.
CB: You are a family.
AF: Yes. You see, even, even the plane is, I think it’s M for Mother isn’t it? Yes. M for Mother. Look. See. We go. We come back. You’re frightened of death but you don’t want it to happen to you. But where’s the logic in that?
CB: So you said that the specific training, for separate training —
AF: No.
CB: For the different positions.
AF: I have seen, a briefing is when all the crews of the Lancasters and we could put forty two up from Binbrook. You, when you attended briefing up on the dais was the commanding officer to tell you why this was taking place, what the target was, how they, possibly to do with a target. You know, what they’ve got to do. Other things that they wanted other planes to do. Really it was to keep you in tune with any equipment that was going to be used as well. I mean [pause] you weren’t allowed to go wild. You were supposed to respect the villagers but what used to upset me more than anything else there was an area where the villagers from Binbrook, because there’s a village of Binbrook come to wish you well by waving flags or anything they’d got that’s colourful. Scarves. And of course as the aircraft came on to the take-off area you were on solid ground. You’d come off the grass. And as the engines revved up you’d see the flags going quicker and quicker you know. And then you’d take off and they vanish out of sight. But again you find you’re crying. You don’t basically want to go. Who wants to take that job over anyhow? I wish I could see that bleeding sergeant major now sometimes [laughs] I’d make him pay for something. I don’t know. But all sorts of fears came at you. I don’t know. Yes.
CB: On how many occasions did fighters attack the planes you were flying in?
AF: I think, I think my limit was four. You see the only way a fighter can properly bring down a bomber is by the curve of pursuit attack. That’s drummed into you time and time again. They don’t make head on attacks. They did out east where the Japanese planes often just flew in the way they’d been trained. In straight lines. Which made it easier actually to sort of kill them off. But it was always a curve of pursuit and he couldn’t have been attacking us because that would have been the silliest way to commit suicide. I mean to ram yourself into a Lancaster. It don’t bear thinking of does it?
CB: No. So on occasions when the planes did attack, other than that one how many times did you shoot at them?
AF: Oh. You see. The psychiatrist told us. They said, ‘The Germans don’t want to die any more than you gentlemen want to die.’ He said. ‘So if they’re making an attack on you, you can be well prepared that they will fly away from you because they’ve had enough if only it’s you see if it’s only seconds.’ So they didn’t do much to help you. These psychiatric people. Whatever the names are. But in fact you had, you had a flying operation which were supposed to take you away from aircraft that were trying to knock you out of the sky. And that, that was if you had to, you had to identify your aircraft because if an aircraft has a thirty foot wingspan which is a fighter normally then you can’t hit him. You won’t hit him unless you open fire at six hundred yards. Then you stand a chance of hitting him. Or setting him on fire. Some of the blokes tried to get, some of our blokes tried to get maps of different German aircraft because what you were looking for was the oxygen bottle. If you could hit that you’d blow his head off because it would just disintegrate the plane you see. You haven’t got time to even look three times at the plane to work out whether it’s an ME109 or a Focke Wulf 190 or —
CB: And it’s in the dark.
AF: Hmmn?
CB: And you’re in the dark.
AF: Well, oh yes. Yes. I was put in front of the CO by the warrant officer in charge of the armoury. And he said he’d put me in front of the commanding officer because I’d, I’d not denied anything, I’d agreed with what he said but he, this is what he said to the commanding officer, ‘This man continually loads ammunition into his four guns in the rear turret. He loads them in an explosive, a cupronickel. Anything that’s not cupronickel, he’ll use again.’ He said, ‘He uses exploding bullets, incendiary bullets, different sorts of bullets, bar cupronickel which is supposed to use, sir. And it’s bending, the heat from some of them is bending the barrel.’ And the CO says, ‘Well, you’re entitled to have your say, Mr Farr. What are you doing?’ I said, ‘I’m trying to get the one that’s trying to get me.’ I said, ‘It’s only own back sir. That’s all.’ I said, ‘If I can get this bastard with an exploding bullet I’ll use it.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Stay out of the armoury. That’s an order. And that’s the order that’s going into the, into your record. So let’s have no more of it. You’ll treat this gentleman with respect and accept what he’s done to your guns. That’s what his job is. So don’t make it silly.’ I said, ‘Alright. Thank you very much.’ But that’s, that’s what I was doing. Putting incendiaries in. Anything that exploded. And of course didn’t do very well at it.
CB: How many did you shoot down in the end?
AF: Hmmn?
CB: How many did you shoot down in the end?
AF: No. No. No. You couldn’t. To claim a kill you’d got to have either confirmation from the French Resistance. They have got to see, actually see the battle take place and to see the wreckage. Now, who can do that? It really, it was to stop handing out lots and lots of medals I suppose.
CB: Now, in your case you did two tours.
AF: Yeah.
CB: And you had a distinguished flying medal.
AF: That’s right.
CB: So at what point was that awarded and what was the accolade that they attached to it?
AF: Um.
CB: So what did they do? On a time base or based on some experiences.
AF: No. They just, and they give a reason for it.
CB: That’s what I thought.
AF: It’s amongst some of these somewhere.
CB: Ok. We’ll have a look in a minute. So when did you get it?
AF: Oh. I got it in, I think it was January or February of ’45.
CB: Right.
AF: And I finished my last trip in October ’44.
CB: Yes.
AF: So obviously they were deliberating over it for some time. But also of course these things were really of no monetary value except for the, the twenty pound they slide to you. Which was good money in them days because we only got, I think it was eight and a six or eleven shillings a day flying pay. See. So you didn’t become an air gunner for the money [laughs] Give us a kiss and shut up.
CB: Did all the crew get the same flying pay?
AF: Oh yes. Yes. I think the pilot and the navigator were a higher, a higher grade because they had to shovel. They had to shoulder more responsibility. Their courses were really courses to make you sit up. Especially a navigator. You know. I was down as a wireless operator. A w/op ag. Wireless operator and air gunner. I soon crossed off the wireless operator off. I wasn’t sitting down at some poor lady’s diner at Blackpool where some of the crews who were training as wireless operator/air gunners were asking people to pass the sauce in code. That aint me. Tapping it out on the vinegar de de dit da da. Dit dit. They can stick that.
CB: Did you get any training in signal?
AF: Wireless.
CB: Yeah. In wireless.
AF: Yes. Oh yes. But I am not that technical. I just am not with it.
CB: No.
AF: You know. In fact, Mr Pretherick at St Benedict’s Road School. Friday afternoons we used to leave class at half past four. But he used to say, ‘Put all your books away. Happiness is about to descend upon you.’ Lovely teacher. He really was. He said, ‘I’m going to throw a question to the room and as soon as, if you answer it right you can go. But don’t hang about in the corridors.’ Half an hour later there would be him and me. He said, ‘Farr, we’re in the same bloody position again.’ Excuse the language. He said, ‘But why are you having this difficulty with just putting four or five numbers together and totalling it up?’ I said, ‘I don’t know, sir,’ I said, ‘I do try very hard. I do really. Can I go now?’ He said, ‘No. You aint answered your question.’ [laughs] He was as cute as me, I think. Yeah.
CB: So you finished in October ’44 on ops.
AF: Yes.
CB: What did you do after that?
AF: I was posted. I was sent down to Waterbeach where they were demobbing the first Army soldiers from Mauripur, India. And they were flying them back in Liberators. Fifteen or sixteen at a time. Big aircraft but they could only fit sling seats in them. And that’s all they could sort of fit in. And I was partly to do with that. I had to drive a little jeep around with, “Follow Me,” on the back in lights. That’s so that when they landed and got to the end of the runway control would tell them to hang fire. ‘Just keep your props going. The inners will do. We’ll send a jeep out to you to take out the demob centre which is the other side of the airfield.’ And they were whistled straight over to this demob centre and three or four days they were out because they had to do all this sort of thing. Obviously. What have you been doing sort of thing. And everything else, you know.
CB: But that was at the end of the war wasn’t it?
AF: Oh yes.
CB: So you went to, according to your logbook you went to 12 OTU after you finished at 460 Squadron. Did you? What did you do there?
AF: Can I have a look?
CB: Yeah. It’s on the summary at the back page.
AF: Oh yes. 12 OTU. Here.
CB: That was all ground work was it?
AF: Oh yes. The 2nd of October.
CB: 26th of October.
AF: It’s alright. No.
CB: ’44.
AF: Do you want to leave it there a moment?
CB: Yeah [pause] Yes. 26th of October it says.
AF: Yeah. I’m looking for my —
CB: Your glasses? What?
AF: No. I mean. Ah, that’s what I want.
CB: But you ended up, you stopped your flying by the look of it at —
AF: Oh yes.
CB: After 460 Squadron.
AF: Yeah. Yes. That was the end. Well, after I’d done forty odd trips they put that as a limit. And they wouldn’t let you go.
CB: No.
AF: I mean, we’ve had, we’ve had crews go off and get halfway to the target and they’ve discovered, ordinary, one of the —
CB: An airman in the —
AF: Yeah. Airmen in the Lanc.
CB: In the aircraft. Yeah.
AF: Yeah. He wanted to go for the experience of seeing what a raid was like [laughs] I mean, you’ve got to look after him. What could you do?
CB: Just keep going.
AF: Well, that’s right.
CB: Yeah.
AF: Just keep on going. Yeah. But I’m just wondering what it says here.
CB: It’s back on Wellington on the listing. But in here you haven’t got an entry.
AF: No.
CB: So it sounds as though you didn’t do flying from then on.
AF: 12. No. Obviously. No. I would presume that I gave them a blank.
CB: Yeah.
AF: There’s eight months work there.
CB: Thinking back across, of the war. What would you think was the most disturbing part of your experience?
AF: Seeing what it looked like from the air when hundreds and hundreds of houses were burning. Which is upsetting. You know. You can imagine what’s taking place down there. People screaming. People trying to get out of rubble and rubbish. Stuff that’s burning. A terrible thing really. But that’s what used to worry me was the condition of some of the towns. Well, you must have seen photographs of the towns afterwards.
CB: Absolutely.
AF: With just, well, it’s like a lot of vacant blind people walking about. A great thing. A great pity. You couldn’t get up an anger. I never found that easy. But it happened. When I was —
CB: Couldn’t get up an anger of what do you mean?
AF: An anger that it was all happening at all.
CB: Oh right.
AF: Not at Waterbeach. These books are never right. You skived off as much as you could. Although I enjoyed, I enjoyed instructing on aircraft recognition. But there again I’d been doing it as a hobby at eight. And they force you to look at aeroplane models when you’re twenty one or twenty you don’t mind.
CB: What was the high part of, for you in the war? The best thing that happened to you in the war.
AF: The only, the only thing that I can think of, sir with any honesty is when my leave came around and I could see my parents and my girl, then my wife. Same girl.
CB: Yeah.
AF: But didn’t have a lot of money. Never have had.
CB: It must have been difficult to keep in touch with her because she was posted to different places.
AF: Well, she was in a, she was in a [pause] they’d all got bikes so they could cycle where they’d got to go to. You could tell the pluck they’d got. But she was repairing aircraft. Wellingtons of course were made in a [pause] made in a linen which is then doped when it is on the frame of the aircraft. It’s doped and it tightens up so that it gives you a skin which will, a linen is very strong. And that’s what was used on Wellingtons to keep them flying. Because there’s no doubt it. They were useful aircraft for training. But that’s what she was doing.
CB: I’m just going to stop.
Other: Wonderful.
[recording paused]
AF: Just be glad you weren’t an air gunner.
CB: Yes.
AF: In all respects.
Other: You know.
CB: So, Alan Farr, thank you very much indeed for a most interesting conversation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Alan Avery Farr
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFarrAA170712
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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02:02:38 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Allan Avery Farr was working at the market in Birmingham before he joined the RAF. He wanted to have the quickest entry to see action and so trained as an air gunner. He trained in Canada where he was offered a post as an instructor but he wanted to serve with an operational squadron. On one flight his eyes froze over and the wireless operator had to help him to recover. The navigator was seriously injured during one operation and when they landed the crew helped get him to the ambulance. Allan met up with him again sixty years later. On one operation they collided with a German night fighter and although the aircraft was very severely damaged they managed to return to the UK.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Poland--Szczecin
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
100 Squadron
12 OTU
460 Squadron
625 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Battle
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
FIDO
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
love and romance
mid-air collision
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Binbrook
RAF Blyton
RAF Grimsby
RAF Lichfield
RAF Waterbeach
recruitment
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/814/10795/PEvansD1701.1.jpg
be6c23d38e2a8e7d58bf746d24b73cd4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/814/10795/AEvansD171101.2.mp3
8b704edec0878915d80776e23df1154d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Evans, Ernest Darwin
D Evans
Description
An account of the resource
71 items. An oral history interview with Darwin Evans (1921 - 2017, 1049547 Royal Air Force) and photographs, including several of Lancaster nose art, Lancaster W4783 AR-G George, and crashed or damaged aircraft. Darwin Evans served as an assistant to the Navigation Officer in 1 Group.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Darwin Evans and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Evans, D
Access Rights
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Permission granted for commercial projects
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BW: This is Brian Wright, interviewing Dawin Evans on Wednesday 1st November, 2017 at two o’clock in his care home at [beep] in Lancaster.
DE: Yes.
BW: Also, is Ray Hesketh who is Dawin’s nephew. So how should I address you, as sergeant or Darwin, do you mind?
DE: Darwin.
BW: [Chuckles] Darwin, ok. Speaking just before you said that your birthday was- Your date of birth was 8th of June 1921, and you’re now ninety-six. When you were living with your family and your parents were- Did you have any other brothers and sisters?
DE: I have one brother, yes, he’s two and a half years younger than me.
BW: What’s his name?
DE: Raymond, Raymond Owen.
BW: And where abouts were you born Darwin, where did you grow up?
DE: I was actually born in Kirkham by chance because my grandparents happened to have retired there.
BW: That’s near Preston isn’t it? In Lancashire.
DE: Near Preston yes.
BW: Where did you go to school, was it the local school in Kirkham or did you- Were you sent away?
DE: I went to junior- You see, we were affected by the big depression and we had a farm outside, outside Kirkham, course my grandfather was a colleague of Charles Darwin and that’s how I- When he, when he got married and had children, they all got Darwinian names.
BW: Right
DE: And one of them was Darwin, he were twins, and he got killed in the First World War at Passchendaele, and to keep the name going I was the first, I was the first grandson to come along so I got, I got Darwin. Now Ernest is a family name as well so they tagged that on.
BW: So is your full name Darwin Ernest Evans?
DE: Ernest Darwin.
BW: Ernest Darwin-
DE: Which can make things difficult.
BW: What was the association with Charles Dawin then, how-
DE: What was what?
BW: What was the association for your grandfather with Charles Darwin, what?
DE: What, what was?
BW: What was the association with Charles Darwin?
DE: Well, he was a colleague, I don’t really know it’s a long time ago. He must’ve been quite young you see, and he was involved in some of the research and we kept- We’ve kept that research going until recently. You don’t realise it but the family spent a long, long time persuading hens to lay an egg a day, instead of a clutch at Easter.
BW: Right.
DE: And the reason you’ve got all these eggs now is because of my family and colleagues.
BW: Interesting, and when you were at school what were your subjects, what was your ambition, what were you studying?
DE: I wanted to be an engineer. See I went to the first grammar school in the country, to have engineering as a subject, that’s not metal work, that’s a complete- I was very fortunate, but unfortunately the, the great depression meant that we couldn’t continue and we had to go to Blackpool. My father lost- They had to sell up at Kirkham, the town house and the farm. My father had to get a job in Blackpool and I went to Blackpool and I went to that first grammar school at Blackpool who taught me engineering, so I could use a lathe at twelve.
BW: Wow, and were you, were you wanting to be a specific type of engineer?
DE: Not particularly
BW: Ok, and when did you leave school, what sort of age were you when you left?
DE: Left school?
BW: Yeah
DE: I was seventeen, you see, I realised I was a - No it’ll get far too complicated but I- When we went from- We actually went to live in Walsall[?] for a time and when I came back, I couldn’t go to Baines Grammar which taught engineering. I had to go to Blackpool Grammar which was just no good for me so I packed in at sixteen from Blackpool Grammar, and I got a job at a Blackpool corporation as a junior engineer, training to be a junior engineer and continued studying at Blackpool technical college.
BW: I see, and in discussion with you before you said you were an electrical engineer, you-
DE: Well, I was training-
BW: Ok, and so at sort of seventeen this will be 1938 or there abouts-
DE: About that yes.
BW: Yeah, did you have ambition to join the RAF at that stage or no?
DE: No, I was interested in aeroplanes you see, I was always interested in model aircraft and I was one of the pioneers of model aircraft, in this country.
BW: Right
DE: And so I had that interest, but see I was frightened of being conscripted into the army. If I was going anywhere, I wanted to be RAF and, so when the war came, I volunteered for- I could only volunteer for one job, that was aircrew, and I didn’t want to be a pilot so I volunteered to become an observer or a navigator.
BW: And, what put you off being a pilot?
DE: Sorry?
BW: What put you off being a pilot, anything in particular?
DE: I just wasn’t interested.
BW: And when did you enlist then?
DE: At the end of 1940.
BW: And it was the fear of- Or the dislike of being conscripted into the army that prompted it, it wasn’t necessarily a-
DE: It was yes.
BW: -compulsion to join the RAF for any other reason?
DE: Well, I was interested in the technology anyhow of it.
BW: Yeah, and what happened through your training, were you streamed to be navigator and that’s what you became? Talk me through that.
DE: I was in the first group that went to aircrew receiving centre in London, and I went and joined up in London and then we- At, where is it? At- In, I forget the name of the place. In London anyhow, we joined up with a whole lot of- That was the first intake, first big intake for pilots and navigators in London and we- I went there and we were brung up in groups of thirty and eventually we went to the- The thirty of us went to Shawbury to be trained as observers, and I did that. That was what they called initial training wing, and then we went back to London and we tatted around for a time, and then we went to, to Bobbington which was a training place, thirty of us, and I was involved in an accident there, not a very bad one, but it knocked me about a bit and it brought on this eye trouble which is a family trouble, which is retinitis pigmentosa. So, I was unable to continue my flying duties at all, but I could still fly but not operate or anything like that.
BW: Do you recall what happened at Bobbington to cause the accident? Was it air or-
DE: Well, there was snow on the ground and the Anson tried to take off and one of the wheels locked and it spun round and went off the, off the runway and hit a concrete building and stopped very suddenly and it knocked- It broke my face quite a bit, I’ve had to have ham and chisel jobs on my face because of it.
BW: Oh dear.
DE: And it still effects my breathing.
BW: And in terms of the retinitis that you mentioned, how do you feel that was triggered by the accident, was it through-
DE: It was triggered by it, but it was a good thing, I’m the only survivor of those thirty young men, who went to Bobbington, twenty-nine of them vanished, died.
BW: Through later war service, not through that particular accident?
DE: Yes war service.
BW: Right. So you were able, it seems to complete your training as a navigator, were you close to finishing at that point or were you reassigned?
DE: Yes, I got extra training so I could become, I was- I went to a place called Cranage, when you’re in the RAF as you’ll probably find out, you have to have a trade, and I became a compass adjuster and I became assistant to the officer, the navigation officer.
BW: And what was your unit at Cranage, do you remember?
DE: Well, I was training.
BW: Ok so you weren’t assigned to a squadron at that point?
DE: I weren’t what, sorry?
BW: You weren’t assigned to a squadron at that point?
DE: Oh no, no we went to 460 when I finished that training.
BW: And so, you didn’t go through a heavy conversion unit or operational training unit?
DE: No, I could still fly. I still kept my log book and I was made a sergeant the same as if I'd been aircrew.
BW: And this is an interesting distinction because in the majority of cases, chaps who went through aircrew training were promoted sergeant and then continued in their trade flying operationally.
DE: That’s right yeah.
BW: You’re unique in the sense that you were promoted sergeant but you, I take it, weren’t flying operationally but you were flying?
DE: No I could still fly you see, and I still kept my log book and everything but I couldn’t operate because I had- I hadn’t finished my training. But I did some extra training to be assistant to the navigation officer.
BW: And from there you went on to 460 Squadron?
DE: 460, Australian squadron.
BW: When abouts would that be, do you recall? Would it be ‘41, ‘42?
DE: That was at a place called Breighton. We were flying Wellingtons, Mk 4 Wellingtons.
BW: And would this have been about 1941, ’42?
DE: ‘41 yeah.
BW: What were the Wellingtons like the fly in?
DE: Well, we had daft ones, the ones we had had prattled[?] with the engines which they were very underpowered, and they used to get shot up badly with, with flak, but we didn’t get many casualties on Wimpy’s. It was only when they changed us to Halifaxes, that’s when we ran into trouble.
BW: And were you with 460 Squadron at the time, when they changed to Halifaxes?
DE: Yes, we were sadly, oh I had a dicey do there.
BW: What happened?
DE: Well I was flying, I had to fly as part of the job to adjust the compasses and the radio equipment in the air, and we landed at Breighton, we were going to Binbrook and we put down and I opened the door of the side of the aircraft, and just as I did that they said, ‘Would Sergeant Evans report to the navigation officer immediately’. So, I got out and got on my bike, I left my parachute and everything and went to the navigation place. Now the crew took off to go to Binbrook and they said if I wasn’t there they’d take off and leave me you see, which they did. I’m sorry I'm having great difficulty, and- It took some time to do what I had to do at the navigation officer, and when I- I can’t remember the details but when I went to my room, I shared it with another bomb- One of the armourers and he took one look at me and his face went pale, because he thought I was a ghost. This Halifax had lost an engine taking off at Binbrook and they were all killed. Except me. Of course I wasn’t there but I didn’t know this was happening and it never occurred to me to take my name off the, off the crew list. That caused endless trouble, if you want to go into that sometime, I’m not really well enough to, to go into details. So, this is one of the cases where something has happened and it’s saved my life, all the rest of the crew, the seven were all killed, except me, and I had great trouble with the padre and I was bothered about sending a telegram to my mother that I’d been killed and everything. So, that’s what happened there.
BW: And do you recall the date at all when that happened, or there roughly whereabouts?
DE: Well, it would be in ‘42.
BW: And did you know the crew, were you flying with them regularly?
DE: Oh very well, very well yes. The crew were all buried in the cemetery at Binbrook.
BW: Do you remember any of their names at all?
DE: Not really, I can’t now, no. That’s seventy odd years ago.
BW: And as a compass adjuster did you fly with all the crews in the squadron?
DE: Yes, you see, yes you see. In those days before we got Gee, we had to do a whole lot in the air, that’s why I kept my log book and everything and I was still flying duties at the time.
BW: And you flew as the eighth member of the crew in effect?
DE: I did, yes
BW: So these must’ve all been daylight sorties that you flew, when the crew were not rostered for night ops, is that right?
DE: Yes.
BW: And what were the sort of schedules for you, adjusting the compasses, would it be every week, or every month or?
DE: Every month.
BW: Ok.
DE: I did a lot of flying [chuckles]
BW: So in some ways, you’d be in the unique position of getting to know the crews who were in the squadron, but also seeing those who would ultimately not come back?
DE: Oh that’s why I was able to take all the photographs and things, I served at some time or other with all six squadrons.
BW: In 1 Group?
DE: In 1 Group, yes. I even learnt to speak some Polish.
BW: Because 300 Squadron were the Polish squadron within one group weren’t they?
DE: That’s right I was with 300, I was with [unclear], I was with them at Faldingworth?
BW: How did you- Just out of interest, how did you rate the poles compared to the Australians or the British crews?
DE: I think they were incredible, there were twelve-hundred poles, sorry fifteen-hundred poles ran 300 Squadron, the twelve Englishman, we were all specialist- They had to draft me in because of problems they had.
BW: Such as?
DE: Well, swinging the compasses and all that, and doing adjustments in the air you see, ‘cause we- It was quite complex which I can’t go into now but I used to see- You had to use a beacon, and I was just able to get four, four trips in, four adjustments in because their beacon only lasted half an hour and I did it at Spurn Head off Hull, flying backwards and forwards off Spurn Point.
BW: So all the crew would be in the aircraft and would be briefed for the sortie to calibrate or adjust the navigation equipment, but you in effect would be in charge because you’d have to direct the aircraft in order to get the readings from the beacon?
DE: Well I had to do- The wireless operator did a lot of the stuff, but it would take quite a time to go into the technology of it. But I had to swing the compasses, adjust the compasses before we flew, and then I was able to use those results to adjust the radio beacon on the 1154 receiver.
BW: How long would it take to complete the swinging of the compass?
DE: Oh about an hour, it had to be done every month.
BW: And roughly how many flights would you get in a day, would you do one a day, or would you-
DE: Something like that, yes. It varies of course depending on the weather and stuff.
BW: How many of them, how many of the adjusters were there, was there just you within the group or were there a group of you?
DE: Well there were two of us.
BW: Do you recall the name of the other colleague of yours?
DE: It was George McDowell.
BW: And could you perhaps describe what you might do briefly, in terms of any checks or drills you had to do? So you’ve had the briefing in the crew room to undertake this sortie, what sort of things would you be doing when you get out to the aircraft?
DE: Well, we never actually operated in Halifaxes because they were so dangerous that they Aussies lost their whole crews before they did any operations, and they went on strike the Aussies did and wouldn't fly the Halifaxes, so they moved us down to Binbrook and gave us Lancasters.
BW: Now that is very interesting because you would think that the replace with the Lancaster would happen just because it was being brought in as a better aircraft, but it was as a result of the Australian crews refusing to fly the Halifax?
DE: It was yes, it was yes, it was terribly dangerous. They were very underpowered the original ones.
BW: Were these the Mk 1 Halifaxes?
DE: Yes, Mk 1’s yeah, and we had Mk1 Lancasters and that ARG Lancaster that’s in the museum in Australia, that was one of our original aircraft and did ninety-two ops.
BW: That’s quite a famous aircraft for 460 Squadron.
DE: It’s a famous- It’s the most famous Lancaster. It’s in the war museum at Canberra in Australia.
BW: And, you mentioned also I think, that there was a crew that crashed one of their Halifaxes, were you on board when that happened or was it just [unclear]-
DE: No, no I was left behind. See I had to go to the navigation officer, but I can’t remember why now because we weren’t operating, we never actually operated on Halifaxes as the Aussies wouldn’t operate them. We had enough trouble changing over from Wimpy’s to Halifaxes without operating them.
BW: So from there you pretty well went straight onto Lancasters?
DE: Yes
BW: And were you- Was 460 Squadron the first unit in 1 Group to get Lancasters, or did you fly them first?
DE: Well we weren’t the first but we were one of the first.
BW: And what was your experience like flying the Lancaster, did you rate it better than the others?
DE: Oh far better, far better than a Halifax, yes. Actually, there were plusses and minus of both of them.
BW: The saying was that they designed the Lancaster to get into and not get out of?
DE: Well, the- I always felt it’d been made out of bits and pieces that nobody else wanted the Halifax, they were made in Preston of course, by Dick Kerr there.
BW: That’s right, and you took plenty of photographs as you said and you, you know, you’ve kindly arranged to donate copies of those to the museum on a CD.
DE: Well what happened was, most English people didn’t get on very well with the Aussies, but I did. I did very well, and they taught me photography and supplied me with the cameras and things. So I was able to take hundreds of photographs, quite illegally, of the Lancaster era, that’s how I come to have all those photographs.
BW: So how did you manage to develop them and keep them out of official hands?
DE: I did, and I made a homemade amplifier, enlarger and everything. Oh, it was all done, all done in the bedroom. Hundreds of photographs, actually some of them got lost sadly, but there’s still a lot.
BW: And when you were on base, you mention this was- This developing of photographs was done in your bedroom but did you not stay in the sergeant's mess on the base, were you located off base?
DE: Yeah, this was in the sergeant's mess.
BW: Right. And did you share accommodation with other crewmen?
DE: Mainly Aussies, I- The Aussies taught me a lot.
BW: How come you think you got on better with them than most other Brits?
DE: It was just my character I suppose, the Aussies were much better than our people [chuckles] much more resourceful. They would do all kinds of things that the English people wouldn’t do, and I liked it that way.
BW: And in your photographs you’ve got some of Lancasters that have been, well, not necessarily shot down but they’ve crash landed back on the airfield.
DE: That’s right yes, quite a lot. You see when we were doing the wimpy’s, one of my jobs was trying to find out where the wimpy’s had dropped their bombs, which wasn’t usually where they were supposed to of dropped their bombs, but you see I knew what the winds were, which the crew didn’t and I’d all kinds of information and when they came back, I had to set [unclear] to try and find out where they dropped the bombs so they could send the reconnaissance Spitfire’s out.
BW: And how soon after the ops would you have to that? Immediately?
DE: Right away, as the information came in, and the crew remembered.
BW: So I presume you’d be in the debriefing room that night when the crews came back?
DE: I was there going and coming back. I gave out all the charts and maps and times and everything, I was assistant to the navigation officer you see, so I virtually ran the navigation office. Old Mac was no good at that sort of thing, but I had the technical knowledge to do it.
BW: So, when people see in the newsreel footage the curtain going back and the crews being briefed about the routes and things, that map that they see that was what you put together was it?
DE: It was yes.
BW: And all the information on the briefing notes for the navigators and bombers?
DE: That’s right yes, yep. That was in the middle of the night. Of course, the wimpy’s didn’t last very long, they had these American engines and they had a very short range so they were back pretty early, they were often back by eleven o’clock at night. They’d been and gone, they’d been and come back, eleven and twelve o’clock.
BW: Do you recall any of the particular instances seen in your photographs where Lancasters-
DE: I’m sorry, any what?
BW: Do you recall any of the particular instances of Lancaster crashes that you photographed, were there any memorable ones?
DE: Well not really, you’ll see there’s quite a number in those books. You’ve got a lot of my photographs there, if you look at the ones on Lancaster at war, you’ll find a lot more, unfortunately a lot got damaged. But there’s still a lot.
BW: And what other nationalities did you fly with in 1 Group?
DE: One what?
BW: What other nationalities did you fly with?
DE: Oh everything, everything from- Australians mainly, New Zealanders, South Africa, English of course and others, and of course I- The Poles got into difficulty so I got sent to 300 Squadron for a time, and then they realised I’d done a good job there and they were having trouble with 12 Squadron and others which I was able to go and sort out. They actually put me temporarily in a place Ludford Magna. I wasn’t doing official work for 101, it had its own people they were alright, but I had to go and go to Wickenby and other places to sort them out. I became a kind of, what you call it? An expert or a sorter out.
BW: Trouble-shooter?
DE: Having great difficulty.
Other: Do you want something-
BW: Are you alright Darwin, do you want to take a break?
DE: I could do with going to the toilet.
BW: Ok I’ll pause it there. Ok, so we were talking about your time on 460 Squadron just before, and you were obviously with 1 Group for many months, if not years and there are different photographs here showing snow conditions-
DE: Well I didn’t sell them. You see, you had great difficulty getting photographic equipment, and many of the photographs were taken on redundant x-ray film, thirty-five millimetre. So it’s achromatic[?] it isn’t, it isn’t the- I took many hundreds but some got lost. In fact a lot have got lost since.
BW: But I was saying, you, you must’ve seen the bombers operate in all weather conditions, there’s pictures of aircraft in the ground in snow and all sorts-
DE: Oh yes, I was, very true. You had just no idea at the end of the war when the Lanc’s and others went up to twenty-four- thousand feet, up above Lincoln and twenty miles away it vibrated, the whole area vibrated. It must’ve been awful in Germany when they heard all these aircraft coming, you’ve just no idea how noisy they were, three-thousand engines running.
BW: How did it feel being on the inside of the aircraft when you were flying with the crew?
DE: How many what?
BW: How did it feel being on the inside of the aircraft when it was in flight?
DE: Well it was much the same, you, you couldn’t tell really.
BW: Was it difficult to communicate with the others, apart from the headsets that you used?
DE: That’s right, yes.
BW: You mentioned before, one of the items of equipment you used was Gee?
DE: Gee, yes
BW: And there was also Oboe and H2S, what- Can you describe what it was like to use those?
DE: Well, Oboe was a system that automatically dropped the bombs over the target, Oboe did. So that was fitted to Mosquitos, and they automatically dropped a marker bomb, no matter what the weather was, and the Lancasters then dropped green markers round it, to show an area where they had to drop the bombs, and this kept being moved you see. They were, they were seven-hundred aircraft dropped bombs in about twenty minutes so it was pretty well continuous dropping bombs.
BW: And of course, they’re going to depend on your navigation calculations in the-
DE: Well, it wasn’t mine but other people, no that’s what Oboe did. Well, yes, they were able to work it out by trial and error over the target.
BW: You mentioned previously that in the early days you, and indeed all navigators, had to use their own maths, their own dead reckoning if you like, to navigate to and from the target.
DE: Yes it very was dead reckoning too, it wasn’t very precise.
BW: And you were one of those who presumably got first go at the new navigation instrumentation when it came in?
DE: That’s right, well that was Gee you see, which was an electronic system, a markers. That was the first big step on navigation replacing the 1155 direction finding receiver. And H2S of course was when you could see the ground through, electronically when you were flying.
BW: Did you get to use that at all to-?
DE: Well I didn’t, I didn’t no, I didn’t need to do see I wasn’t navigating. The crews did.
BW: So you weren’t taught how to use that?
DE: I had to issue the instructions for Gee and all the rest of it.
BW: And were there various developments in that equipment that took place that you had a hand in, or did you just have to learn to train, learn to use them?
DE: Well, it was always being developed, when Gee first came out it was very secret and all the people who maintained it were, what do they call it? Over in America and Canada to keep it secret, and that’s what happened. The people who maintained it originally were all Canadians.
BW: And did you get any sense at all as to how effective the German systems were either in countermanding the British or the effort?
DE: Well what happened you see, I was with 101 Squadron for a time and they carried an extra member of the crew who spoke German, to give the night fighters the wrong instructions, but they sorted that one out, they just had girls giving flying instructions to the night fighters, so it was continuous battle that way.
BW: There were many raids of course flown across enemy territory, do you recall any particular raids that you were involved in the navigation preparation for? Maybe for example in the Ruhr valley or against Peenemunde, or anything like that, do you recall particular memorable targets?
DE: Well, course depending on the weather how long the night was. I mean at the famous thing [chuckles] was the Ruhr valley, happy valley as they called it, and that could be bombed in winter when the nights were shorter, but later on when the Mosquitos came along, they used to bomb Berlin every night because their crews were about twice the speed of a Lancaster.
BW: You never got to fly one though did you?
DE: No, there were only two seaters. The most I did was sit in one.
BW: Do you recall any particular individuals on the squadrons that you served in, commanding officers or pilots or crews?
DE: Well I’ve forgotten names quite frankly, the- One of the friends was George Saint Smith who flew, that’s the RG Lancaster for a time, I think he did about twenty ops on that, and then he went to pathfinders, and then he went to Mosquitos and got killed flying Mosquitos, they were particular friends of mine, and his navigator.
BW: Do you recall the circumstances in which they were lost, which raid it was and when?
DE: No I don’t, no
BW: When it came up towards D-Day in 1944, were you involved? 460 Squadron did fly over that period of time particularly?
DE: Oh yes we-
BW: Were you involved in the preps for D-Day?
DE: We were very involved with D-Day, you see, what happened was that, when squadron was formed, they wanted a special flying squadron and originally they were going to Binbrook, and Benbrook got an additional twelve, twelve positions for Lancasters. So there were battle between 3 Group and 1 Group and eventually it was- To stop that problem they formed 5 Group, which was 617 and 9 Squadron, and of course they had a redundant system at Binbrook so 460 Squadron before a four flight squadron, it was the only one and we had to operate fifty Lancasters and frankly it was too much. It took at least a minute to get each Lancaster off, and even at that it was a lot of Lancaters, you know, it wasn’t easy.
BW: And that would’ve been a lot of work for you as a compass adjuster to get through all of them?
DE: Oh very much so yeah, well I used to do other things as well. I used to go and help them- I used to go and help the friends of mine who were sending the Lanc’s off and bringing them back, and I was interested so I used to go and help. I’d be with them at the caravan, you probably hear we have a green? Has that come up?
BW: Yes, yes when they gave them the green light.
DE: Well, there was a man with a green you see, my eyesight wasn’t that good then, now what used to happen, I used to go and help them, it wasn’t my job and when I saw the Lanc go down the runway, as I saw it take-off, I gave him a bang on his back and then he’d give the green to the next Lanc went off, and that went off. It took three-quarters of an hour to get those aircraft up.
BW: Simply because of the volume, but also because of the take-off run for each aircraft. When they’re heavily laden they have-
DE: Very much so.
BW: And that makes sense in terms of your photographs, as you said because a lot of them are taken from the holding point and either in or near the caravan, because you see Lancasters taking off and approaching to land as well.
DE: And coming back crashing
BW: There’s quite a few of those
DE: Very many, too many. There were often, weren’t badly damaged.
BW: But there are photos that you’ve got of some of the battle-damaged ones where they’ve obviously had gun fire through the control services and the air frame?
DE: Yeah, what are you gonna do with them- Are you going to borrow those photographs?
BW: The originals will stay with you and your family, the copies will go to the archive, the digital copies will go to the archive
DE: Well you’ve got them, oh bloody hell, you’ve got them with the Lancaster at war, all those photographs?
BW: Yes
DE: They’ve got this outfit called lancfile[?], all my negatives being kept under special conditions so they last. But there were hundreds of them at one time.
BW: Did you fly any other aircraft apart from the Lancasters towards?
DE: I did two or three trips when I was training on Bristol Blenheims and Halifaxes and Ansons.
BW: Did you fly any other aircraft towards the end of the war, were you-
DE: Not really, no, I finished up with the Lancasters. They sent the Aussies back to Australia and they shut down 300 Squadron with the Poles, so that left 4 Squadrons and they had four twelve flight squadrons went to Binbrook, that’s what happened. When the war finished, we had those four squadrons there and I was doing- I was looking after those with the others when, when I left the RAF.
BW: Talk me through the latter stages of the war, the sort of early 1945 and VE Day and the end of the war.
DE: That’s right yeah.
BW: What happened there? Talk me through those months.
DE: Well on D-Day I worked one-hundred-and-thirty-two hours one week. Getting the aircraft off, early in the morning ‘cause we were operating fifty Lancasters. We could drop as many bombs round D-day just the one squadron as the Luftwaffe dropped on London.
BW: And what happened afterwards, talk me through the latter months of the war and the end of the war.
DE: Well nothing, we just played about and people just kept retiring as I did. I got out on what they call Class B, which as I came in and they got me back in my job at Blackpool as soon as they could because of getting things sorted out.
BW: In terms of demobbing the servicemen?
DE: Sorry what's that?
BW: In terms of demobbing the servicemen, when you talk about sorting, sorting things out they got you demobbed quickly is that right?
DE: Sorry I couldn’t follow that.
BW: When you left the air force, you say you went out as Class B?
DE: Yea that’s right well-
BW: Was that a quick departure?
DE: I went out back onto studying, and getting on in the maze office to at Blackpool corporation, and studying but things went badly wrong for a time, caused me a lot of trouble.
BW: Is that something that you can, you can talk further about or summarise, what happened?
DE: Well, well it’s difficult to tell you really. We had a daft lecturer who tried to wangle me extra time off and it didn’t work, and it cost me a whole extra year.
BW: So when abouts did you leave the RAF? Was it shortly after the end of the European war in ‘45?
DE: It was January ’46
BW: And from Binbrook then you came back to Lancashire-
DE: And back to Blackpool, yes
BW: Back to Blackpool, continued your education?
DE: That’s right.
BW: And in short you presumably ended up as an engineer with Blackpool council?
DE: Yep, that’s it.
BW: And talk me through the years after the war, what happened, where- What was your progressing?
DE: Well, I had to continue studying, I got promotion and went to, went to Preston, to the headquarters at Preston, and eventually we saw an advert in the paper for a job with atomic energy, a research job and I thought I could do that. So I became a junior, what do they call it? I was a senior officer there later on, so I got the job as a- On research in atomic energy at Preston there, and I continued from there until I had to retire because of my eye trouble, I had twenty years on nuclear research.
BW: Presumably that was Salwick was it?
DE: At Salwick yes. That was my headquarters, but I operated all the, all the officers at Harwell and even Aldermaston I worked on the bomb project, and worked wind scale and I went over to America as well and Canada, I went all over the place with the nuclear research.
BW: What aspect of nuclear energy were you looking at was it with a view to- You mentioned bomb project so were you involved with the development of British atomic bomb-
DE: The bomb sorry what?
BW: You said you were involved with the bomb project, were you involved with the British development of the atomic bomb?
DE: Well I was very surprised, you see that they realised I had unusual skills. Believe it or not you think of atomic energy as being to do with heating, well I was the top heating man in atomic energy, if there was any heating troubles, you’d finish up with me, believe it or not, and that’s what happened. I had twenty years on that, on AGR there.
Other: How did you get into the bomb, Darwin?
DE: What sorry?
Other: How did you get involved with the bomb at Aldermaston?
DE: Well not directly. It takes a lot of people to do that kind of work, I was the heating man and I had to do quite a lot of work on the, on the fuel, supply that. It’s difficult for me to remember details now, but I was very surprised that they were very open with me at Aldermaston and I said, ‘Well, I can’t understand this because you don’t know’, ‘Well you’ve got the same clearance as we have so why not?’. That was their argument, you couldn’t get a nicer lot of people then the ones at Aldermaston, and eventually they shut it down. When atomic energy authority left Aldermaston, the government took over and I never went again. But I still did consultancy work.
BW: And did you travel out to America or to the Pacific to see any of the bomb tests, or were you just involved in research for that project?
DE: No, I went mainly for the library at Argonne in Chicago, and we- The- It’s difficult to see, you know that some atomic energy is medical, very short range you see, and there was a- Most of that work was done in Canada, and at Springfields we probably had the best engineering job in the country, in Europe, we actually did the work there on that reactor at Snowy River in Canada.
BW: And so, when you talk about being involved with the heating part of nuclear energy, were you looking at containing the heat or dissipating the heat?
DE: It was making the fuel usually, and doing research. There’s an awful lot of research goes on which you- See to do all this I could spend days doing it if I had, what you’re doing, what we’re doing and- We actually did engineering work on Snowy River for making, making this specialised medical nuclear equipment.
BW: The sort of thing they might use in-
DE: In hospitals.
BW: Yes, to detect tumours and-
DE: It was all done in one reactor in Canada at the main place called Snowy River in Canada. You see there weren’t any of us were experts, remember there was nobody in atomic energy could said they were atomic energy, and we were all engineers, physicists, chemists and think of it, we were that. So, I went over there as an electrical engineer and other stuff and so did others, you just had to learn as you went along.
BW: And you were in that field of work for about twenty years you said?
DE: Twenty years, yeah.
BW: And what did you move onto after that, did you retire or did you continue working-
DE: I had to retire as my eyesight got worse, I had to retire and eventually we came here, we came to live in Warton.
BW: And you mentioned that you married, and obviously have a wife, did you have a family as well?
DE: No we didn’t she kept having- She kept losing the children at three months, kept having miscarriages which was very sad.
BW: A shame, and so you heard in recent years about the moves to finally recognise the contribution by bomber command in the war effort. What are your thoughts on this and the development at the centre? Is it reassuring that it’s taking place for you now?
DE: It kept coming up about it, as time went on people took more interest. Just after the war nobody was interested, they were all glad to see the last of it, but as time has gone on they realised that we were all getting very old and ancient and if they want to get first-hand accounts, they better get cracking. I think that’s what’s happening.
BW: But hopefully its reassuring for you that people who served in bomber command and those who survived and those who didn’t are being commemorated?
DE: Well we’re all getting- I didn’t take part operationally but I was there planning and doing all kinds of things as well.
BW: Well I think Darwin, those are all the question that I have for you, is there anything else that you would like to add that perhaps we haven’t covered at all?
DE: I don’t think so, I could do a lot more but there’s probably enough for your needs.
BW: Very well, thank you very much for your time Darwin and thank you very much for your contribution to the bomber command centre.
DE: Well I feel I ought to do with all those colleagues of mine who’ve all died. I lost a lot of good friends, especially among the Aussies who taught me- The Aussies taught me a lot. It was partly due to the Aussies that I became interested in getting things hot.
Other: How’s that? How’s that Darwin?
DE: Well now, where can we go? When they started flying at twenty-four-thousand feet the oxygen supply used to freeze up in the turrets and so, an Australian electrical man and me we actually made heater devices that went on the oxygen supply for the rear gunners. I actually went home- I had a lathe at home and actually made the components for these heater systems and Len, this Aussie, was a very clever bloke and he showed me how to get things hot, you know, in an easy way. We, we used to go into Grimsby and buy replacement electric fires and strip it all down and I would do work at home and go away and come back and we built these heaters. I don’t know how other squadrons did but we equipped the gunners with heaters on the oxygen supply and that gave me the background which made it poss- And I knew about thermocouples and things which I wouldn’t normally of done, and that’s how that came about, they gave me the interest of getting things hot and of course, when I say hot I say really hot, we did all kinds of things which involved getting things to two-thousand degrees Celsius. When you think Iron melts at fifteen-hundred and we were seven-hundred degrees up above that, and I had all that sort of things to do. It were only because of these Aussies giving me the background that I was daft enough to do it.
Other: Interesting.
BW: So what would be kept at two-thousand degrees? What would you need to-
DE: That was- Well that was a fuel, the four AGRs which is a ceramic fuel, that melts at these temperatures but that was another project that never came up that involved coating, how can I put it? Involved, involved coating uranium dioxide with a film, very thin film, at these enormous temperatures, so it would stand the temperature in the reactor. It’s not very clear it isn’t. Really to do all this I should be given time to work it all out.
BW: But what’s interesting is that, the development that took place from learning to keep gunners warm in the back of a Lancaster lead to you developing things like thermocouples or the technology to coat uranium.
DE: That’s right, it did, it did, and this other stuff as well. You’re right there. That involved going buying stuff in Grimsby, buying spare electrical heaters in Grimsby [chuckles].
BW: I bet there’s many an Australian gunner who would, you know, thank you for your efforts in keeping them warm in the back of a Lancaster
DE: Well, well what happened was that it was, I had to- We actually flew at twenty-nine-thousand feet when we were doing that work, course it was twenty-four-thousand at night so we had to go higher up in the daytime, and that’s what was happening, that I had to do that. As I say I've been to twenty-nine-thousand feet in a Lancaster and being the RAF, we had thermometers and some were Fahrenheit and some were centigrade and I couldn’t understand why they both read forty, and it was only then that I realised there’s a crossover point between Celsius and Fahrenheit, minus-forty the temperatures cross over.
BW: Fascinating.
Other: Did you invent anything else for the Lancasters?
DE: Did what?
Other: Did you invent anything else with the Aussies, to help with the crews, or anything like that? No?
DE: I can’t think of it at the moment, no.
BW: Did you get to socialise with them much off base, or in base, you know, in the messes?
DE: No. I actually made- I used to go home making special tools.
BW: And where did you meet you wife, did you meet her in Lancashire after you demobbed? Or in Lincolnshire when you-
DE: Yeah, Lancaster, fell walking. We were both interested in other things, you see, I was never very well and the doctor said, ‘Darwin,’ he said, ‘You want to go walking, to try and get yourself breathing a bit better’. So, he suggested I join the CHA and eventually Alice joined the CHA, we got together and then got married.
BW: And that presumably was after the war it wasn’t-
DE: That was after the war.
BW: Yeah, when did you get married by the way?
DE: Well you see I was quite late getting married, in ‘53. We were married- We’ve been married over sixty years. I’ve also become a radio amateur among other things, to learn about electronics.
Other: You did a lot of work with steamtown and the model railway as well.
DE: That’s right and that, yes. You’ll find if you go to Cinderbarrow, you’ll find name is on the building, they called the building after me I’d done so much for them.
BW: That’s good of them.
DE: The model railway at Cinderbarrow.
BW: Right, well once again thank you very much Darwin it’s been pleasure and very interesting to talk to you and meet you and thank you very much for your contribution and for allowing me to interview you.
BW: So you’re going to borrow the- He got up in bed, I got rounds rattling on the roof of the Nissen Hut, it actually shot us up.
BW: So this was at-
DE: So I've been shot up by a German aircraft in bed.
BW: So this was at Ludford Magna while you were asleep?
DE: That’s with 101 Squadron, yeah.
BW: Did the sirens go off?
DE: Did what?
BW: Did the sirens go off to warn you?
DE: No they didn’t, no, what happened was the girls were in the next line, next to us and they had a toilet block, they were told on no account the door had never to be opened when the light was on and this and that, and some daft girl left the light on and the door open and the JU-88 came cruising over and shot up this toilet block. We got quite a lot of the rounds ricocheted onto us. It blew up the ladies' toilet block.
BW: [Chuckles] A vitally strategic target.
DE: Yes. Marvellous bit of flying.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Darwin Evans
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brian Wright
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AEvansD171101, PEvansD1701
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:07:19 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cheshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Staffordshire
Description
An account of the resource
Darwin Evans volunteered for aircrew in 1940 and began training as a navigator. After an accident while training at RAF Bobbington (later RAF Halfpenny Green) ended his operational flying duties, he retrained as a compass adjuster at RAF Cranage and served as an assistant to the Group 1 navigation officer until January 1946. Evans describes flying with crews monthly to calibrate the aircraft compasses and his role in operation briefings. He recollects a good working relationship with the Australian aircrew of 460 Squadron and the Polish aircrew of 300 Squadron, and narrowly avoiding a fatal crash at RAF Binbrook. Finally, he explains how his trouble-shooting role in Bomber Command (inventing heaters for rear gunner oxygen supplies) prepared him for his post-war career as an electrical engineer in nuclear energy research.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
1 Group
101 Squadron
300 Squadron
460 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
crash
final resting place
Gee
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Lancaster
navigator
Oboe
RAF Binbrook
RAF Breighton
RAF Cranage
RAF Halfpenny Green
RAF Shawbury
take-off crash
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/379/10476/LToombsG1590211v1.1.pdf
a23fa90d12f53e86fa183ee0e4f9c02b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toombs, George
G Toombs
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Toombs (1590211 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, decorations, memorabilia and 56 photographs. George Toombs completed 30 operations as a flight engineer with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook and served in Germany after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen E Toombs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2015-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toombs, G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
George Toombs’ flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LToombsG1590211v1
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Flying log book for navigators, air bombers, air gunners and flight engineers for George Toombs, flight engineer, covering the period from 1 May 1944 to 7 October 1944. Detailing his flying training and operations flown. He was stationed at RAF Sandtoft, RAF Hemswell and RAF Binbrook. Aircraft flown in were Halifax and Lancaster. He completed a total of 31 operations with 460 squadron, 19 Daylight and 12 night operations. Targets were, Ardouval, Bois de Jardin, Stuttgart, Foret de Nieppe, Trossy, Pauillac, Fontaine le Marmion, Aire, Aachen, Douai, La Pallice, Volkel, Stettin, Ghent, Raimbert, Le Havre, Frankfurt, Rheine, Sangatte, Neuss, Cap Griz Nez, Calais, Kattegat, Saarbrucken and Emmericht. His pilot on operations was Flying Officer Lester.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mike Connock
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Log book and record book
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
Atlantic Ocean--Kattegat (Baltic Sea)
Belgium--Ghent
England--Lincolnshire
France--Ardennes
France--Calais
France--Creil
France--Douai
France--La Pallice
France--le Havre
France--Pas-de-Calais
France--Seine-Maritime
Germany--Aachen
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Neuss
Germany--Rheine
Germany--Saarbrücken
Germany--Stuttgart
Netherlands--North Brabant
Poland--Szczecin
Poland
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
France--Pauillac (Gironde)
France--Sangatte
France--Nieppe Forest
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1944-07-25
1944-07-29
1944-07-30
1944-07-31
1944-08-03
1944-08-04
1944-08-05
1944-08-07
1944-08-08
1944-08-09
1944-08-10
1944-08-11
1944-08-12
1944-08-15
1944-08-16
1944-08-17
1944-08-18
1944-08-19
1944-08-31
1944-09-05
1944-09-06
1944-09-08
1944-09-10
1944-09-12
1944-09-13
1944-09-16
1944-09-20
1944-09-23
1944-09-25
1944-09-26
1944-09-27
1944-09-28
1944-10-04
1944-10-05
1944-10-06
1944-10-07
1667 HCU
460 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Luftwaffe night-fighter airfields (15 August 1944)
Bombing of Trossy St Maximin (3 August 1944)
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
mine laying
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Binbrook
RAF Hemswell
RAF Sandtoft
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/379/10161/PToombsSE15100100.2.jpg
c9aab8bf7b7e44c477e05d7a636ff013
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toombs, George
G Toombs
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Toombs (1590211 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, decorations, memorabilia and 56 photographs. George Toombs completed 30 operations as a flight engineer with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook and served in Germany after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen E Toombs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2015-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toombs, G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Le Havre
Description
An account of the resource
Vertical aerial photograph of Le Havre. There are large numbers of bomb craters and smoke and explosions. Captioned '6106 BIN 10-9-44 //8 10000' [arrow] 115° 1840 Le Havre X 13x1000 4x500 c 24 secs F/O Lester L 460'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-09-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PToombsSE15100100
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
France--Le Havre
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-09-10
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
460 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Binbrook
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/379/10133/PToombsSE15100017.2.jpg
43cdbfa6f01ce9aa04f62cd910bcecc6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toombs, George
G Toombs
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Toombs (1590211 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, decorations, memorabilia and 56 photographs. George Toombs completed 30 operations as a flight engineer with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook and served in Germany after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen E Toombs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2015-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toombs, G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Emmerich
Description
An account of the resource
Vertical aerial photograph of Emmerich. The Rhine is at the top left. Some smoke and explosions are visible next to the Rhine River.
Captioned '6348 [undecipherable] 1000 [undecipherable] Emmerich [undecipherable] L460'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PToombsSE15100017
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Germany--Emmerich
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Rhine River
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
460 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Binbrook
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/379/10132/PToombsSE15100016.1.jpg
1e184803ba0afd56dc8890464a7f6e4d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toombs, George
G Toombs
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Toombs (1590211 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, decorations, memorabilia and 56 photographs. George Toombs completed 30 operations as a flight engineer with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook and served in Germany after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen E Toombs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2015-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toombs, G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Le Havre docks
Description
An account of the resource
Vertical aerial photograph of Le Havre showing end of breakwater around dock area. Numerous bomb craters visible throughout together with damaged or destroyed dockside buildings. Warship in dock lower right. Rectangular structure to top left of central pier, is the concrete E-Boat pens with bomb damage visible to upper section. Small vessels visible around jetties in the basin top right. Rough pencil circular marks on the original suggest an item of interest, probably sunken vessels in the main dock, right of centre. Captioned 'BIN 5:9:44 //8” 12000 <- 150 18:41, LE HAVRE, L1 13 x 1000 : 4 x 500 c 5 secs. F/O Lester N460'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-09-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PToombsSE15100016
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
France--Le Havre
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-09-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
460 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
Lancaster
RAF Binbrook
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/379/10131/PToombsSE15100015.1.jpg
7eeabfaf4c21b6a88877c3410eba4a49
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toombs, George
G Toombs
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Toombs (1590211 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, decorations, memorabilia and 56 photographs. George Toombs completed 30 operations as a flight engineer with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook and served in Germany after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen E Toombs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2015-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toombs, G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Le Havre
Description
An account of the resource
Vertical aerial photograph of the dock area at Le Havre. The right side of the image is obscured by cloud or smoke. Captioned 'BIN 5-8-44 //8 12000' [arrow] 150 1841 Le Havre Li 13x1000 4x500 c5secs F/O Lester N 460'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-08-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PToombsSE15100015
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
France--Le Havre
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-08-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
460 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Binbrook
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/379/10130/PToombsSE15100014.2.jpg
4550382953c8447d6d71b505e276eb02
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toombs, George
G Toombs
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Toombs (1590211 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, decorations, memorabilia and 56 photographs. George Toombs completed 30 operations as a flight engineer with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook and served in Germany after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen E Toombs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2015-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toombs, G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Le Havre
Description
An account of the resource
Vertical aerial photograph of Le Havre. Much of the centre of the photograph is obscured by explosions and smoke.
Captioned 'Captioned 'BIN 5-8-44 //8 12000' [arrow] 150 1841 Le Havre Li 13x1000 4x500 c5secs F/O Lester N 460'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-08-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PToombsSE15100014
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
France--Le Havre
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-08-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
460 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
RAF Binbrook
target photograph
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/379/10129/PToombsSE15100013.1.jpg
3eaa1c7275c20858d94296990f3fe92f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Toombs, George
G Toombs
Description
An account of the resource
61 items. The collection concerns Sergeant George Toombs (1590211 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, decorations, memorabilia and 56 photographs. George Toombs completed 30 operations as a flight engineer with 460 Squadron from RAF Binbrook and served in Germany after the war.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Stephen E Toombs and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2015-11-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Toombs, G
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Access Rights
Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies.
Permission granted for commercial projects
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Le Havre
Description
An account of the resource
Vertical aerial photograph of Le Havre. The left side of the image (the port area) is obscured by bomb explosions. Several ships are aground on the beach. Captioned 'BIN 5-8-44 //8 12000' [arrow] 150 1841 Le Havre Li 13x1000 4x500 c5secs F/O Lester N 460'.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1944-08-05
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PToombsSE15100013
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
France--Le Havre
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-08-05
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Geolocated
460 Squadron
aerial photograph
bombing
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Binbrook
target photograph