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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/858/11100/AHarrisHST150909.2.mp3
0644ea5d3fae401b624fe3f915057fc0
Dublin Core
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Title
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Harris, Harry
Harry Stracan Thomson Harris
H S T Harris
Sam Harris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Stracan Thomson Harris (162261 Royal Air Force). He flew two tours of operations as a navigator with 103 Squadron and later with 105 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, HST
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BW: Alright. This is Brian Wright and I’m interviewing Mr Harry Harris on Wednesday the 9th of September at 2:25 in the afternoon in his house. So, Harry, you were in the RAF, in Bomber Command. What was your rank when you left?
HH: Flight lieutenant.
BW: Ok. And start us off. Just please tell me about your home life before the war.
HH: Well in 1939 I lived in ‘Trose and I went down to London to start a chef’s course at the Westminster College for Cookery and I stayed with an aunt who lived in London. I was there during the Blitz and then my, my cousin and I didn’t agree so I was evacuated to Exeter as an evacuee.
BW: Right.
HH: But I didn’t like it at Exeter and I came back to London. Started, re-started on the course and I lived in a sort of YMCA place beside the River Thames and it was the centre of the bombing there and, but I liked it. I went out every night to watch the bombers. But then I had to leave and I found out later, my aunt had been paying for my education and she had to stop work and look after her parents. So, I had to go home and I worked for a year in a mental, the hospital of a mental asylum.
BW: And what year was that?
HH: That was in 1941. And then when I became seventeen and a half — it was 1940, I came back. And when I became seventeen and a half I volunteered as a pilot at Aberdeen. Then I went to Edinburgh about July to do the course. The tests and things. And they drilled me then as a navigator and I found out much later, when I was at the RAF flying college that if you got a certain, they did a maths test and if you got above a certain number you automatically qualified as a navigator. Under that you became a pilot or an air gunner. And we used to, when we found out we used to call them the dim pilots [laughs] because they couldn’t pass the test. But then I went to, went to London to Lord’s Cricket Ground. That was where we think we met. And then went down to Torquay. Babbacombe near Torquay, for the first course. Training course. And then from there to Eastbourne for another course and from there went to, to South Africa for our flying. We landed at Cape Town and went up to Pretoria and then down to Port Elizabeth where we did our course. Our flying course. And then passed out and got our wings. I got mine in November 1942.
BW: And this was your navigator wings.
HH: Navigator. Yes.
BW: Right. What prompted you to become a navigator? I think you mentioned earlier you wanted to be a pilot.
HH: A pilot. Yeah. Well when I went —
BW: Why the change?
HH: When I went to this board at Edinburgh. I forget what they called the board. Screening board. And we did, you know, oral interviews. We had written tests and one was a maths test and apparently that’s when the heavy bombers were coming in and they wanted navigators and so they did this by choosing above a certain percentage in the maths test. You were automatically selected as navigator.
BW: Ok. And when you went down to Cape Town for the, for the flying was that the navigational instructional part of flying?
HH: Yes.
BW: So you were put in an aircraft and learned to navigate.
HH: That’s right. Yeah. We flew in Oxfords. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: At Port Elizabeth. And there used to be three u/t navigators in an aircraft. One was navigating. One was sitting beside the pilot and using the wind to find out the winds and the other one did the Astra. And —
BW: The Astra being the star navigations.
HH: Astra navigation. Yeah. And on the second last one of our course we flew out over the sea and our course commander was an ex-naval officer and we flew over the sea and we saw all these lifeboats. A tremendous number of lifeboats. We couldn’t communicate with them so we came back to Port Elizabeth and they sent out a boat and picked up all the survivors. But the next day we went out again. This time I was sitting in the front with the pilot and I saw a boat. It was a U-boat.
BW: Right.
HH: And the pilot, the South African pilot and he turned towards this U-boat and started diving. Now this U-boat came up, there was three gunners at the far end of the boat with a gun and they were firing at us and the shells were just going two or three feet above us because they weren’t allowing for us going down. So we carried a depth charge and as we got closer the three men ran towards the conning tower. As we got closed the conning tower was closed so they couldn’t get in. We dropped the depth charge and at this time we were only about fifty feet and this time we turned. There was nothing left. The U-boat had gone. And years, years later I met the course commander and, you know I asked if anything had happened about that. And he said, ‘No. They never confirmed the loss of a U-boat.’ Yeah.
BW: So you weren’t sure whether it had dived and avoided it or whether it had been hit.
HH: No. We didn’t know.
BW: There was no trace of it.
HH: No.
BW: Right. And that was just on, that was just on the training.
HH: [laughs] Yes. On training. That was our last trip. Funny. We went back to Cape Town and then, I forget where and we got on the boat again to come home. And we were in the South Atlantic when we, the ship ran into the wreckage of a ship that had been torpedoed. We lost a propeller and had to go in to New York and we got there on the 26th of December. And we were there for three weeks. Beautiful.
BW: Very good. And so, you then must have come back from America.
HH: We came back to New York.
BW: At some point.
HH: Back to Glasgow. Yeah. And then we did more flying at Wigtown on Ansons. Just to get acclimatized, you know, with the country. And then we went to the Operational Training Unit and it’s all written down there. That’s where we met the first of the crew. The pilot was Ken Murray and he’d trained in America and he wanted to fly on fighters. And when he found he was going to be flying on bombers he wasn’t a very happy chap I can tell you. But we got on well.
BW: Good.
HH: And the first day there they had to crew-up and at the end of the day there was twelve of us hadn’t crewed-up. That was two crews. So we want to the pub in Loughborough and somehow we got together and we stayed together.
BW: And this was The Golden Fleece in Loughborough. Is that right?
HH: Yeah. And the other crew that were there that night they were killed at the Operational Training Unit. They crashed on take-off and they were all killed. So if I’d gone with the other pilot I wouldn’t be here today.
BW: That’s fate isn’t it?
HH: It is. Yeah.
BW: So you were based in, in Lincolnshire.
HH: Yeah. Elsham Wolds.
BW: Or Leicestershire. About there. Is that right? At that time?
HH: Pardon?
BW: You were based around Leicestershire at that time if you were in Loughborough.
HH: At that time. Yeah. We must. We did our first operation from there.
BW: So where were you, where you were based at this point on — had you joined operations at this stage? Now you’d crewed up.
HH: No. No. We, we went. We did our flying training on Wellingtons. Wellington 1Cs. And at the end of the course we went on an operation to Dunkirk. And it’s all written down there. And when we got over the target we got hit by flak but we managed to get back home. The hydraulic system had gone. So had to wind down the undercarriage. Wind down flaps. And the next morning the engineer came and said that the shell had missed the fuel tank by three inches [laughs] And we wouldn’t be here.
BW: Wow.
HH: Yeah. He had it all. He said three inches.
BW: And so the early part of your flying career then you were flying in Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah. Wellington 1Cs. Yeah.
BW: And from then on, I mean we understand that you went on to fly Lancasters.
HH: On to Lancasters. Yeah.
BW: How many operations did you fly on Wellingtons?
HH: One. Just the one.
BW: Just the one.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And how was the change made, or the decision made for you to fly Lancasters?
HH: Well we, from the Wellingtons we went to train on Halifaxes. And then when the pilot was capable of flying the Halifax we went on to Lancasters. And then when they were satisfied that he was fit then we went to 576 Squadron, Elsham Wolds.
BW: And Elsham Wolds is also in Lincolnshire isn’t it?
HH: Yeah. Lincoln. Lincolnshire.
BW: And how did you find that change from Halifaxes to Lancasters? Was there—
HH: Oh, I loved the Lancaster. Yeah. That was, yeah.
BW: And there are more, are there the same number of crew in the Wellingtons?
HH: Yeah. Same number of crew. Yeah.
BW: Ok. So you were able to keep the same crew together?
HH: Oh yes. The same crew. Yeah.
BW: And what were the living conditions like on base at that time?
HH: Well, there was Nissen huts. I suppose we got used to them. Each Nissen hut got somehow fourteen, somehow twenty beds and you just got used to it. You had, well they just had the basics I suppose.
BW: Just a bed and blankets.
HH: Bed and blankets in them.
BW: And a stove in the middle.
HH: Yeah. Yeah there was three, I forget what they call them now. Three square things made up the mattress. Yeah. And that’s all there was. And the washing facilities were always outside. And in the wintertime there was no heating in the ablutions and so the water was freezing cold. Sometimes frozen altogether. And the heating inside the stoves [pause] well you used what you could. Logs or anything we used to use just to keep the place warm when we were there.
BW: Did you have the hut to yourself or were you sharing with another crew?
HH: We shared. Until we got to the squadron we shared with another crew. When we got to Elsham Wolds we had to wait until they got the Nissen ready. And we got the Nissen and we found out later that we had to wait because the crew that had occupied the Nissen had gone missing. And there was room for two crews actually but we only ever had the one crew in it. The losses was pretty heavy so we only ever had just the one. Just ourselves.
BW: And were you fairly close to the aircraft? Or to the mess?
HH: No. We had to get —
BW: Whereabouts on the base were you?
HH: We all had cycles. It was about a mile, a mile and a half to cycle.
BW: Each day. Just to —
HH: Yeah. Just to get up to the main part.
BW: Right.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. All the living accommodation was spread away from the airfield.
BW: Right. I’m just going to pause the recording for the moment.
[recording paused]
BW: I just paused the recording there to allow us to just put the door to and avoid any background noise. So, continuing on you were at Elsham Wolds then. You were flying Lancasters. And you were living in Nissen huts.
HH: Yeah.
BW: At the edge of the airfield. What were your, or describe for me if you would please a typical sortie for a Lancaster operation from sort of getting ready to do the operation and then flying it and then coming back. What was that like?
HH: Well we, we used to, every morning we went and got breakfast. Went up to the squadron offices and sometimes we would go ahead and do an air test and we’d wait until about lunchtime and then they would say whether the operations were on that night or not. That was usually around lunchtime. And then the briefing was with, there was a navigation briefing first. Just the navigator, the bomb aimer and the pilot there. And we got told the target, the route and I made out the flight plan. And when that was finished we went to the main operations room where the station commander, he would, all the crews were there and he would tell them where the operation was and that was the first they would know. We had known maybe half an hour, three quarters of an hour before but then they only knew then. And they went through the drill — what was happening, what the target was and any questions. And I can’t remember anybody ever asking a question [laughs] and then we went to the aircraft and took off at the allotted time.
BW: It, it’s been said at certain times that aircrew had superstitions. Were there any that you were aware of on your aircraft or in your crew?
HH: Any? Any what?
BW: Superstitions or habits or, guys would take, for example personal items with them as lucky charms. Were there any instances like that?
HH: See that picture behind you.
BW: There’s a, on the wall is a picture of, like a little gollywog.
HH: Yeah.
BW: Was that yours?
HH: Yeah. My wife, when we came back from South Africa my girlfriend, now my wife she bought me that and I wore that every time I flew. For the rest of my flying career I flew with that.
BW: And what’s —
HH: It’s downstairs.
BW: What sort of size is, is that? Is it, it must only have been a little figure was it?
HH: It was — high. Yes. It’s downstairs.
BW: So about three to four inches. Yeah Three or four inches tall.
HH: It just fitted inside the pocket. Yeah.
BW: Right. So that was your lucky charm that you took on a mission.
HH: That was my lucky charm. Yeah.
BW: It seems to have worked.
HH: The lucky charm and a box of matches in that pocket. And twenty cigarettes in the other one [laughs]
BW: About —
HH: I never ever flew again without that mascot. And I flew over nine and a half thousand hours.
BW: Wow. And did the, did your other mates have any similar things?
HH: Yeah. They had similar things but I can’t remember what they were.
BW: Right.
HH: But every one of them had a mascot. Every one [laughs]
BW: So you get into the aircraft. You get into the Lancaster and prepare. What sort of things would you start to do and the others start to do to, to get ready?
HH: Well, we, first of all we went to pick up our parachutes and Mae Wests. And then we got in a truck that took us out to the aircraft. We’d get inside and prepare. Like the pilot and the flight engineer would do all the checks. Checks. Myself and the bomb aimer, you know would get the flight plan and check all the other instruments were there. The wireless op was the same. And the air gunners, they would check all their equipment. And then it would be time to, to go to the take-off point. The take off point was a caravan and they gave a green light to take off. And beside that caravan, every time I can remember there was a crowd of WAAFs there. And airmen but mostly WAAFS would come to see us take off. And, and that, I was thinking back. That was the time that we were most frightened. Take-off time. Every time we talked it was, in case we would crash on take-off.
BW: Because the aircraft is fully loaded and fully fuelled.
HH: Fully loaded. Yeah. Had full fuel and we had a big cookie each. What was it? Two tonnes plus incendiaries. And one night we didn’t take off properly. We went through, past the end of the runway, through the fence at the end of the runway and luckily there was a quarry underneath and we went down in the quarry and came out at Brigg before we started to pull up again.
BW: So if there hadn’t been a quarry at the end of the runway — ?
HH: That was, we would have gone [laughs] That was, that was the worst one. Yeah.
BW: Wow.
HH: Yeah. That quarry saved us. And it was a long time it ever happened because we would fly over Brigg which was quite a few miles away before we started to climb.
BW: And yet the other aircraft would have been similarly fuelled and armed.
HH: Yeah but they —
BW: And they got off all right.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Don’t know what it was. No. No.
BW: So, on the flight out you’re now airborne heading towards the enemy coast. What sort of things are happening in the aircraft at this stage?
HH: Well, on the Lancasters then we had a navigation aid called Gee. You know, where we could fix our position within, you know a half of mile. But once it got outside Britain the signal faded and the Germans were jamming it anyhow. So after that you relied just on, I don’t know the Pathfinders would pass winds and you used to use these winds because they had H2S which gave a map of the ground. But the winds weren’t always accurate. Sometimes a long, long way out. And so we, we just had this Gee. That was all.
BW: And apart from that there was just dead reckoning presumably.
HH: Dead reckoning. That’s all there was. Yeah.
BW: Did you —
HH: But then we got an aircraft. It was fitted with H2S [laughs] That was towards the end and that, that was absolutely different altogether. Yeah.
BW: Made the job a lot easier.
HH: Yeah. It did. Yeah.
BW: So did you have to circle the airfield to form up?
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: Or did you meet the formation over a certain point?
HH: No. We, you were given your take-off time and the first crews took off first so, and then you had time to set course over the airfield. That’s sometimes you’d get airborne and it was twenty, twenty five minutes before you got back over the airfield for the right time to head out. And it was strongly, they put, always had the new crews on there. They should have put the older crews on that but they didn’t. They didn’t in our squadron.
BW: So you had, you had a separate take off time to be airborne.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And you then had to be overhead the airfield at a certain time to set course.
HH: Yeah. All aircraft. Well if it was fairly light you could see the other aircraft. Otherwise you didn’t.
BW: And did —
HH: And I think there were some crashes there too.
BW: And did you see much of the other aircraft throughout the rest of the sorties?
HH: No. No.
BW: Missions.
HH: Not unless they were caught in the searchlights. No.
BW: So —
HH: We did, it was all night stuff we did.
BW: So presumably then very rarely would you actually see other aircraft in the, in the formation.
HH: No. You wouldn’t. No.
BW: How did it feel then? Did it feel as part of a combined effort or did it feel pretty much as a lone crew out there?
HH: Well it just, it was just the sort of thing you did, you know. I don’t know. As I said the only time we saw other aircraft was when they were caught in the searchlights. And over a target, you know when the target was all lit up then you could see other aircraft. Usually then there was full searchlights. But no. In the darkness we never saw anything.
BW: So when you left the shores of England and you were flying out over the Sea were you able to see France or the Dutch coast at all?
HH: No. No. No. It was always dark. Always dark. Never saw the ground.
BW: Did you ever receive any attention from the flak guns on the ground below or from night fighters at all?
HH: We once had night fighters and the rear gunner, he fired his guns but then I don’t know what happened. It just disappeared. That was the only time.
BW: And so when it came to being over the target what would be happening in the aircraft then?
HH: Well, the bomb aimer would be down giving directions. He’d find the [pause] the what do you call it? [laughs] The target indicator. And it was red, blue, whatever it was. And he’d find that and he’d head towards that and give directions to the pilot — left, left, right. And then the flight engineer and the pilot were in their seats. I would get out of mine and I would stand behind the flight engineer to see what was going on. And the, then there’s bombs gone and then they had to wait because the camera would take a photograph. So it was like forty seconds I think till the bombs went down and once the photograph was taken it was bomb doors closed. I would give the pilot the next heading and off we’d go.
BW: And all this time on the run in to the target and the run out you had to keep straight and level.
HH: Oh yes.
BW: One, in order to, to allow the bombs to fall accurately but also to allow the photograph to be taken.
HH: Had to be absolutely straight and level. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Were there times when that wasn’t possible?
HH: The only times if you’d got behind another aircraft and then you’d go bumpety bump. That was awful. But when I was, later when I was in Mosquitoes and doing the bombing that was beautiful. The Mosquito could hold itself nicely. But the Lancaster, no. There was always aircraft in front. It was a bit bumpy, you know.
BW: Just because of the turbulence —
HH: Turbulence. Yeah.
BW: From the aircraft ahead. And so once you’d dropped the, dropped the bombs and turned for home what sort of things were going on then? What —
HH: Well, that was, I think that’s when we lost a lot of the aircraft but I’m not sure because the German fighters then, they were all from over the place, had gone. They knew where the target was and had gone there and there was lots and lots of fighters.
BW: So the gunners were pretty active.
HH: We could, we could see the other aircraft being shot down. We’d see the tracer bullets and this sort of thing. It’s quite a lot of, the worst one was on the Nuremberg raid where we lost ninety five. And on the way out it was a long, straight course and the fighters got up. And I was inside there, I didn’t see anything but the flight engineer was saying, ‘There’s another one,’ and the pilot said, ‘It’s only dummies. It’s only dummies. They’re just shooting dummies. There’s no aircraft there.’ And when we got back to base, at the debriefing he said, ‘And we lost an awful lot of aircraft on the way out.’ Oh [laughs] Trying to keep us from being frightened. Yeah.
BW: When, during the flight back did you begin to feel safe again?
HH: I think we felt safe all the way really. It was just we’d done the job and I was just getting back.
BW: Ok.
HH: I can’t, all I was worried about mostly was when we could pick up the navigation. Gee. You know. To be sure we were in the right place. But I, I don’t think we were. I could be wrong but I don’t think we worried too much going back. You know. It was going out. The very worst time was the take-off. That was, we all agreed that was the worst time.
BW: So once you were in the air the nerves started to settle a bit with doing your job.
HH: You were doing your job then. Yeah.
BW: So, roughly how long would each sortie or each operation have been then?
HH: About six hours. It’s all in there somewhere. Each one. About six hours I think. Yeah. But then after a while we started going to the French targets and that was, you know five hours maybe. And the very last one was on D-Day. We went to Vire Bridge in Northern France. And that was the first time that the bomb aimer had seen where the bombs landed. And two of them landed on the bridge. He was so happy we hit it.
BW: What was the name of the bridge again?
HH: Vire. V I R E.
BW: Oh. I see.
HH: Yeah. My eldest daughter’s, well she’s been going to France for years to a motorbike thing and she brought back a picture of somewhere around. There is a picture of Vire Bridge.
BW: Obviously rebuilt since your bomb aimer put two bombs on it.
HH: Yeah. Funnily enough on Mosquitoes I only once saw where the bombs dropped. It was a Cookie we carried. No, I wasn’t. Sometimes. And I can still see it. Yeah. There was a very, very wide road. A canal running along the side and a building with a massive door at the side. The bomb landed in the middle of this so it must have blown the door, must have blown the side off the factory. That’s what we were aiming for. The factory. That was the only once.
BW: And the bomb hit. It landed on the road. Or landed in the —
HH: Landed on the road. Yeah. It was halfway between the building and the canal.
BW: But it still blew the factory down.
HH: It would have. It was only about ten fifteen yards from the wall so it must have blown it right, right out. And the factory too, I hope.
BW: And when you returned to base after a successful operation what then happened? You mentioned debriefing.
HH: The debriefing. Yeah. You went in front of the intelligence officers and they, they mainly the questions, you know. They wanted to know anything and we just told them about the trip.
BW: And what sort of questions would they ask?
HH: Oh, about the Pathfinders. Did they drop the right, did they drop the right colours and that? Did you think they were in the right place? And this sort of thing. About the timing. Did you see any enemy aircraft and enemy gunfire? That was the sort of things they wanted to know. Just the defences.
BW: And once you’d had the debriefing? What? What then?
HH: Oh, we went back. Handed in our parachutes and Mae Wests and then went for a meal in the mess.
BW: How did you spend your spare time between operations?
HH: Well, we were at Elsham Wolds and it was quite, quite a long way to, Brigg was the nearest place. And Scunthorpe was beyond that. And we’d, initially we’d all go out together, all seven of us and we’d go to Brigg and drink in the pub there. And we had bicycles so we’d cycle there and cycle back. And then the pilot got commissioned so he sort of left us then and we split. We did the same as before. And then the bomb aimer and the flight engineer, they met a couple of people and they went to their home. You know and they sometimes stayed overnight if they could. And the two air gunners, they went on their bikes and they cycled all the way up to the Humber and they went together. So there was the wireless operator and myself and we just went our own way to the pub and the dance hall and back. That was it. Go to Scunthorpe. Got the train to Scunthorpe and get the last train back.
BW: And were you on ops every night or were there periods —
HH: Oh no. No. No. No. Very seldom it was two nights in a row. Sometimes there’d be a week’s gap or something. And every four days, every four weeks we had a week’s leave. But because of the losses sometimes we got leave every three weeks. Yeah. The losses were pretty heavy at the time.
BW: How did you spend your leave when you got the opportunity?
HH: With my wife. She, we lived not far apart in the village and we used to go out dancing and that sort of thing. That was all. In the summertime, well in the summertime then we had the bikes and we went biking, walking. But in the wintertime that was all there was because she was working all the time.
BW: How did you meet?
HH: Well we lived, my father and mother, my father was in the Royal Marines during the First World War and my mother was in the Women’s Royal Air Force near [unclear] in 1919. And they both lived in ‘Trose and they both went as nurses at the asylum, Montrose Royal Asylum. They both went as nurses. They met and got married and then I came along. And in that asylum, it was a small community and Mary’s father was the grieve. I don’t know, the head farmer. He was in charge of the farm. It was a great big farm. A really huge farm. So, you know, all the kids, we used to all play together and that in the grounds of the asylum. That’s how we met.
BW: And so you’d knew each other for a while before the war started and before you joined up.
HH: Oh knows, we played together and her brothers and that since we were five years old, you know, so. But it wasn’t until I was going overseas that I had a few days leave and I met her. And we just had a couple of days, you know going out and then we wrote and then it was another about fourteen months I think before we met again. Yeah.
BW: And how did you re-meet? When did you —
HH: Oh we kept writing all the time. Yeah. And then we got married in 1947 because I was going to be posted to an airfield in London, or near London. And I’d phoned the adjutant and he said accommodation was no problem. My wife would get a job. That was no problem. He guaranteed everything. So we got married. Went on honeymoon. Three days later we were going out the hotel and the porter came around and said I was wanted on the phone. I thought, ‘Oh. There’s only, there’s only the Air Ministry know I’m here.’ So I went and they said, ‘You’re posted to Singapore. You’re leaving in one week’s time.’ And so I went off to Singapore and at that time you weren’t considered married until you were twenty five. Well I was only twenty three. So it was eighteen months before she could join me.
BW: Just because of the service rules.
HH: Oh yeah. Eighteen months.
BW: So just, I’d just like to go back. You mentioned about flying Mosquitoes. At what stage during your career, your service career did you change to Mosquitoes?
HH: Well, when we finished operations on Lancasters I was posted to a Canadian run Operational Training Unit. They were flying Wellingtons. It was run by Canadians for Canadians but in this country. And the only RAF people there were the station commander, a group captain and a wireless operator. He’d done a tour of operations himself. But we were the only RAF personnel. And instead of lecturing I used to just to go up, fly with them in an aircraft with the trainees. And that was all that was done so I got fed up with this and I went and saw the station commander and said I wanted a posting. And he said, ‘No. No.’ And every Monday morning I went. In the end he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I’ve arranged for you to go before a commissioning board.’ And so myself and the wireless operator went before this commissioning board and got our commissions. And the next day I went to see the group captain [laughs] He said, ‘Now, don’t tell me.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And a week later he, he arranged for me to go on Mosquitoes. That was good.
BW: And did you move onto that squadron on your own or were there any mates that went with you?
HH: No. Just on my —
BW: Just on your own.
HH: Just on my own. Went to the, what do they call it where you all met? The pilots and navigators. And I crewed-up with this George Nunn. He crewed-up with me. He picked me [laughs] And so we flew together. We flew on Oxfords at first during this training and then on to Mosquitoes. And then on to the squadron. And then when the war finished in Europe I had a navigator friend, he was from the West Indies and he was going to London to meet his own people. So, I went down to London with him to this pub. It was full of West Indians and, but we had a good time. And then they said that 105 Squadron, Mosquito squadron was going to start training for the Far East. I thought — oh. So, I went back to thingummybob and saw the wing commander and I said I would like to transfer to 105 Squadron. And he went up in the air because he was organising this sort of, what do they call it [pause] West Indies. A big aircraft thing. Commercial aircraft. He was going to be the boss and he was looking for people to fly. And so I kept on and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You haven’t got a chance going by yourself. You have to find a pilot.’ Well, George wasn’t keen because he wanted to go back to his old job but when he, when he heard that he said, ‘Right. Away we go.’ So we got posted to 105 Squadron. And we were doing this, this new bombing aid they had. And we were ready. Just to be ready to go to the Far East when the war finished.
BW: But you got, you got out there it must have been late 1945 then.
HH: Yeah.
BW: In that case.
HH: Yeah. So 1945 finished with Mosquitoes and I went on the training on what they called BABS. It was a blind landing aid. And we went to various Transport Command stations and taught them how to fly this. And then I got, got married and then Singapore on 48 Squadron.
BW: And what were you flying there?
HH: Dakotas.
BW: How long were you out in the Far East?
HH: Just over two and a half years. I flew a lot to Hong Kong. India. Bangkok. A couple of times to Australia. It was quite good. A good trip. Yeah.
BW: How did you find the change from navigating in Lancasters to Mosquitoes? Both aircraft have different, slightly different reputations.
HH: Yes. Well —
BW: What was the experience like for you?
HH: The big, the big thing with the Mosquito was the space. It was the pilot sitting, like a pilot would sit, sit there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: And I would sit here [laughs] and he had all these instruments in front of him. And just down below was the bomb bay. So that, you know, after the space in the Lancaster, you know, a table this size you just had a thing you picked up like that.
BW: A notepad.
HH: It was a chart and everything there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: So it was quite different.
BW: It seems different in the sense that when you were in the Lancaster you would be working as a single navigator.
HH: Yeah.
BW: But yet, when you were in the Mosquito you would be doing two roles because you were the bomb aimer as well.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, we got trained on bomb aiming. Yeah. We got, we did our training, bomb aiming training on Mosquitoes and I remember flying over somewhere in Lincolnshire one day bomb aiming and something happened going towards the target and something happened and the bomb went. The bomb released. And [laughs] you saw it and it landed in a farm yard. So we went back and, you know reported it because there was maybe something wrong with the bombing. Anyhow, the next day we got a phone message from a farmer. He invited us all out for a drink [laughs] Because they’d gone to the farm, they’d apologised. He wanted to know who they were and he invited us all out. Not us but the whole squadron for a drink. So I don’t know what had happened. If he had insurance or something like that.
BW: Was it a practice bomb that had dropped? Or —
HH: A practice bomb. Yeah.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Fifteen pounds. You know.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And it just happened to come off the —
HH: Yeah.
BW: Off the release and into the farmyard. What sort of operations were you flying in Mosquitoes then? And how, how different were they to those on the Lancasters?
HH: Well the Mosquitoes we did, I think it was fifteen trips to Berlin. We did nineteen trips altogether and fifteen to Berlin. And it [pause] it was, I don’t know. In some ways it was easier that a Lancaster trip. We never worried we’d take-off. That never worried us. And it was just a case of getting to the target and it was a lot shorter time. Four and a half hours to Berlin and back instead of nine hours. And now, you used to get down, do the bombing and never had any problems.
BW: Were you part of the Pathfinder Force on Mosquitoes?
HH: No. No. Not the Path, no.
BW: Or were you —
HH: We were just ordinary. Yeah. No, we had the Pathfinders in front of us. They dropped the target indicators. And it was, no, it was, I don’t know it was just the two of us there sitting like this, close together. And sitting in there somewhere we left Berlin one night and we were always they always got coned by the searchlights. Every time we went there. And I just, I used to like that because I could see inside the bomb bay, you know. See the bombs and everything. We never minded. And we were coming back out one night and the searchlights, you know and it was no good trying to dodge them and suddenly the searchlights stopped. They all dropped. And I looked. There’s was a blister at the side and I looked behind and I could see lights. Red and green lights and I thought, I said to George, I said, ‘There’s some silly bugger going in there with his lights on.’ I said, I said, ‘No. He’s overtaken us. I said, ‘Direct to starboard. Go.’ And George, and they were pffft. The cannon shells came right across. And one of them took the top off the aircraft. We went down and the searchlights had come on. George got blinded and we were going whoooa and essentially —
BW: Apparently down.
HH: There were, the heavy aircraft were bombing, I forget the name of the place and we could visualise that and he turned and got the aircraft right and then looked at the altimeter and we were only about fifteen hundred feet above the ground and we’d come from twenty four thousand [laughs] Oh God. And anyhow we made it back. And it was years later when I was at the RAF flying college I was reading about, you know this thing and on that night, at that time, at that place, this German fighter that shot down a Mosquito [laughs]. I thought that’s great. It was the exact time and everything as that.
BW: If, if that’s the same account as I read about that was a raid over Potsdam. Near Berlin. Is that right?
HH: No. No. That was. We were at Berlin actually itself.
BW: Berlin itself.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And is it, was it right that the report said it was a Messerschmitt 262. It was a jet. A German jet.
HH: Yeah.
BW: So they were using those as night fighters.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And, and you were very lucky not to have put his bullets into the cockpit.
HH: Yeah. Just lucky we dived in time and just in the, oh and one, one of the bullets had gone through the tail fin. Right through the middle. The next day the ground crew there were sticking sticks through it [laughs] I thought, oh my God, that was close. Yeah. It was nice.
BW: I believe on that, on that particular raid on, as that was happening and you were spinning down you ended up upside down and you were on the, on the canopy.
HH: On the top. Yeah.
BW: So you were being pulled out of your seat.
HH: Yeah. Oh yeah.
BW: While the aircraft is upside down and you were on the canopy trying to get your parachute together. Is that right?
HH: I undid my harness to, to go down and get my parachute and open the bomb doors. Open the exit place. And it wouldn’t open. And so I got back and then I was sitting on the seat and she went pffft. Yeah. On our first Lancaster raid we never got to the target. We lost two of the engines and we had a full bomb load and a fuel load so we turned back and headed for The Wash to jettison the bombs. And the bomb aimer thought, you know, we thought well in case anything happens we’d better get ready to bale out. He couldn’t open the doors. Just, it was the pressure and that, it just wouldn’t open. So if anything had happened we couldn’t have got out. But we jettisoned the bombs over The Wash and then jettisoned some of the fuel because it was a tremendous amount of fuel we carried.
BW: But you managed to land safely.
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah. We did. Yeah.
BW: And were you ever caught in searchlights on other raids as well? You mentioned —
HH: Oh yeah. Lots of times. Yeah. Especially on Mosquitoes. Every time we went near the target they picked us up because they had a lot, a lot of searchlights then. But on the Lancaster I think there was only two or three times we got caught in searchlights. Just for a short time.
BW: Did the pilot have to take evasive action?
HH: Well in the Mosquito, we stopped because we couldn’t get out of them. They were, you know coming from all sides and it didn’t matter. On a Lancaster he could get out of them. Yeah.
BW: But you were never intercepted by fighters except for the, for the one occasion.
HH: Except for that once. Yeah. And very lucky.
BW: Were there other raids over France that you, that you recall? You mention one on the —
HH: Vire. Yeah.
BW: Vire Bridge.
HH: The one, the worst one of all was [pause] oh my memory. Starts with an M. It was the marshalling yards in the north of France. Now, what Bomber Command didn’t realise was that the Germans were sending troops up to the battlefield and the big anti-aircraft was based at this railway station. And we went in. If I remember rightly it was ninety five Lancasters from Number 1 Group. And we went in and just it was murder actually. And I think we lost forty nine. It’s all there somewhere. This stuff. Ninety five and we lost about half of them. That German anti-aircraft unit was stationed there and we were, for the Lancaster we were flying, you know at fifteen thousand feet. Which is ideal for them. Yeah. That was a tremendous loss.
BW: There’s a lot of reports I’ve seen of the German anti-aircraft fire being extremely accurate. It was always at the right height.
HH: Oh yeah. Yeah.
BW: But you never got hit yourself.
HH: No. Just that once in a Wellington. You know, that first flight. That’s the only time we got hit.
BW: You mentioned about flying on or around D-Day. Were you flying operations in support of D-Day? Do you remember anything about the build up?
HH: We didn’t know anything about it. D-Day was the 6th of June. We went out to a target in Northern France on the 5th of June but we didn’t know. Nobody knew it was about D-Day. And coming back, on the H2S on the Channel I saw the Channel was full of ships. And I said, ‘It’s the invasion. It’s D-Day,’ and we went back to, to Elsham and they said it’s D-Day in the morning and we just all laughed. And I said we saw them, you know, on the radar. And of course it was. Next day was D-Day. It was tremendous seeing all these ships. Yeah. But then we did our last trip then and that was it.
BW: And so very soon after that you finished flying on Lancasters. Just after D-Day.
HH: Yeah. On D-Day. That was our last trip. Yeah.
BW: And then you changed then to flying Mosquitoes.
HH: Now the pilot, he went back on Lancasters in ’45. Mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner, they both went back on operations ’45. But the wireless operator he just got to a squadron when the war finished. And the flight engineer, he didn’t want to do anymore because he’d got married.
BW: And did they let him? Let him —
HH: He was training. Yeah. He was. Yeah. Oh yeah. He spent his time training.
BW: But all the way through that you managed to keep together as a crew.
HH: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then we met again in 1978. It’s all written down there. It’s a long long story. It was a young chap. He went to Bristol to see the boat racing there. And he was staying the night in a pub and he saw an axe hanging up behind the bar and he asked the barman. He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I used to break up aircraft after the war. During the war and after the war. And that’s from one of the aircraft.’ And he says, ‘Oh which aircraft?’ And he said, ‘Oh it’s got on it.’ And the bloke went and found out and it was our aircraft we used to fly in. And he lived in Kent. And he went to an air gunner’s meeting and met our air gunner and said, ‘Do you know, and it was our axe.’ And so from there you know we all got together then. It’s all written down there.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Bit by bit we wrote. And then they formed the Elsham Wolds Association. That’s how they got in touch with me from there.
BW: And were there more than one squadron based at Elsham Wolds?
HH: Yeah. Two squadrons there. 576. Was it 103 Squadron, I think? Yeah. I’m not sure. I think it was 103.
BW: And were they both Lancaster squadrons?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
[pause]
BW: And so it seems you’ve had a pretty eventful and successful career and managed to avoid the, sort of impact of anti-aircraft fire.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: And night fighters.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And all the sort of other dangers that people experienced in, and you —
HH: I was really lucky. Yeah. Really, really lucky.
BW: Did you ever know any crews that became prisoners? That had been shot down over France?
HH: Yeah.
BW: Were any captured?
HH: I think it may be in there. If not I’ll —
BW: Ok.
HH: I tried to, there was thirty two of us passed out in South Africa. At the end of the war there was only eleven of us alive and three of these was prisoners of war. I contacted you know because like the magazines, aircraft magazines they used to print losses you know. Who was killed and that. And I used to keep a look out for it all. Yeah. There’s eleven and I met, you know I met all eleven eventually.
BW: So you’ve done a lot of work to keep track of those guys that you met.
HH: Oh yeah. Well that’s —
BW: You keep in touch with them.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And that chance reunion in a pub down south with one of your, was it a bomb aimer who saw the axe over the, over the, at the pub?
HH: No. No. It was another bloke. Just a chap who was out there.
BW: I see.
HH: He lived in Kent and he went, he went to the Air Gunner’s Association because he thought maybe somebody knows about this axe. And he was right. Our mid-upper gunner did. And so it was he was he that formed the Society at Elsham Wolds. John. He’s been here once or twice. John Wiltshire. That was his name.
BW: John Wiltshire. And is he still around? Has he passed?
HH: I don’t know. I don’t know.
BW: Right [pause] Something I’m intrigued about if I could just ask. It’s your nickname. You have a nickname. Sam. Is that right?
HH: Yeah. Well —
BW: How did that come about?
HH: Well when we were going out to South Africa on the boat we used to have drills. You know. We had rifles and bayonets. We used to do drills and one day we were doing a drill and I dropped my rifle. And the course comedian, of course he says, ‘Sam, Sam pick up thy rifle.’ That was a song that was going at the time.
BW: I see.
HH: That stuck with me ever since. ‘Sam, Sam pick up thy rifle.’ [pause] Then when I went to that Canadian OTU I got Jock then. Jock Harris.
BW: Jock Harris. And you have the same surname of course.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: As Bomber Harris.
HH: Yeah. The RAF.
BW: Was that ever put to you? The same nickname or —
HH: No. No. No.
BW: The RAF only had room for one Bomber Harris.
HH: Yeah. Only room for one.
[pause]
BW: Are there any other sort of memorable operations or, or events that perhaps spring to mind?
HH: Let’s think. No. I think we had it very easy really. [pause] No. The first Mosquito operation was fogged-in at base. It was fogged-in and we were running out of fuel and the pilot, George, he’d seen an airfield further back so we went back. We found this airfield and we were just, just wait to land and the engine stopped. Went bump on the runway and the fire brigade and that came out and got us out, you know. Bundled us out the aircraft and left the aircraft on the runway. And Lancasters, it was a Lancaster base and they were circling around the top because they couldn’t land. So we went and got debriefed and went to the mess and were having a cup of cocoa or something and there was a great thump on my shoulders. And I looked around. It was a chap who I lived next door to, we were born within three weeks of each other. We lived next door to each for about fourteen or fifteen years and he was on the one of the Lancasters. And he said, ‘Is that your heap of wood lying out there?’ [laughs]
BW: Is that your heap of wood lying out there?
HH: Yeah.
BW: Yeah.
HH: Jim Cassell. He’d got a mighty slap [laughs]
BW: What a way to meet up after living all that time next door to each other.
HH: Yeah.
BW: And then bumping into each other.
HH: Yeah.
BW: Literally in the, in the debriefing room. Which was your favourite aircraft, do you think to fly?
HH: The Lancaster during the wartime. But after that the Britannia was a beautiful aircraft. Yeah. That was the best one. But during the war the Lancaster. Yeah.
BW: You mentioned when you went out to serve with 105 Squadron in the Far East and you continued to stay out in the Far East for about two and a half years. At what stage then did you leave the RAF and what prompted the move?
HH: Oh 1968. I went to [pause] let me see. I left 48 Squadron. Came back to this country. I did a course, instructor’s course and then I instructed people to become navigators. In two places. And then I went to a place where they were training pilots on Meteors. I was a navigation officer and all sort of things. Then I went to RAF flying college as an instructor and was there for a while. Then went on Transport Command on Hastings, Britannias and VC10s.
BW: So you pretty well stayed on multi engine aircraft.
HH: Oh yeah.
BW: All the way, all the way through. Even though when you were instructing navigators for Meteors.
HH: Yeah.
BW: You weren’t flying Meteors yourself.
HH: Oh yeah. I flew in Meteors.
BW: You were. Right. You flew Meteors as well.
HH: Yeah. I, one of the blokes, he was a Polish bloke and at that time there were at the Farnborough thing. You know flying an aircraft straight up and then it would sort of come down, you know so he said, he got me flying. He said, ‘We’re going to try that today’ [laughs] We went up and the thing toppled over backwards and I was going to, I said, ‘I’m going to eject,’ and, ‘No. No. No,’ and he pulled it out then.
BW: So instead of going up nice and vertical and coming back tail down there the same axis you fell out backwards.
HH: Yeah. That’s the last time he tried it. Yeah. And I flew with Gus Walker on Canberras at the flying college. We did a trip to the North Pole from Norway but we ran out of oxygen just about seventy miles from the North Pole and we had to come back and we descended to the oxygen level and we landed at this place in Norway, Bardufoss. And as we landed we ran out of fuel and bump. She came down with a crash.
BW: You were very lucky there again.
HH: There. Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Just made it home in time.
HH: Just made it.
BW: With no fuel.
HH: Yeah. Gus Walker. He was a really nice bloke. Gus. We were up to the top there once before and the Canberra couldn’t get back in. We were going to land then further south and there was a Hastings there and no pilot except Gus and he’d never flown a Hastings before [laughs] And he says to us, he says, ‘Will it be alright if I fly it? And we said, ‘Yeah. Yeah.’ And he flew it down there. Flew it to Oslo. It was alright. One of the funny things was when we was on Britannias there was a scare over Germany where a German aircraft or something had buzzed a civil aircraft. And somehow it got arranged that newspaper people would come and fly in a Britannia and this sort of thing would be, would be happening. And I was a navigator and Gus Walker was in charge of this lot. And he came up to the flight deck and we were chatting there and forgot all the fact that everything was going through to all the passengers as well [laughs] And then I looked up and I said to the pilot, ‘That’s not the airfield. We’re at the wrong airfield. Another airfield across there.’ And then I thought oh my. And Gus Walker went back and when we landed all the press came out and then one of them come across. He said, ‘That was good. I listened to all that. That was really really good. I enjoyed that.’ But nothing came out in the papers happily.
BW: So you managed to find the right airfield eventually.
HH: Yeah. Gus Walker. Yeah.
BW: Did you come across any famous pilots in the RAF at all? There were well known guys. People like Gibson flew Mosquitoes. Did you ever come across —
HH: Douglas Bader. I met him twice. Once when he was doing the instructing on, just after the war. I met him down south somewhere. And then when I was on 48 Squadron in Singapore he, I don’t know, he came in there to the mess. I don’t know. I can’t remember. And he recognized me in the crowd and I thought [laughs] and everybody’s [pause] yeah. He was a nice bloke.
BW: Ok. Is there anything that you would like to show us on the computer at all. But I think —
HH: I think you’ve got it —
BW: It might be a case of printing it.
HH: I think it’s all on there.
BW: Ok.
HH: Wherever you have it. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: It’s all there. I hope. But if there’s anything else just phone. I’ll get it.
BW: Ok.
HH: I’ll tell you about these logbook pages.
[pause]
BW: Just going to have a look at some logbook pages.
[pause]
BW: We’re just, we’re just looking at one of the logbooks. Would you just describe what it says on the citation there? It’s dated 8th of October 1946. Is that right? At the bottom there.
HH: On 8th October 1946. Yeah. Something Headquarter 46 Group. Letter reference 46 at C250 something, something dated 20th of August 1946.
BW: What does the, so it says at the top. “Incidences of avoidance by exceptional flying skill and judgement of loss or damage to aircraft or personnel.” And it says, “Flying Officer HST Harris DFC, whilst navigation instructor on an Oxford aircraft EB798 during — ”
HH: “Exercise.”
BW: “Exercise.”
HH: “On eureka.”
BW: “On eureka.”
[pause]
HH: “Eureka homings”
BW: “Eureka homings from St Mawgan.”
HH: “From St Mawgan. The starboard engine failed and was feathered by — ”
BW: “By his skill.”
HH: “In operating the radar screen he enabled his pilot to carry out the shortened BABS. Let down.”
BW: “Guidance.”
HH: “And made a good landing in conditions, bad weather and poor visibility after breaking cloud at two hundred and fifty feet with the runway immediately ahead. By his knowledge of his radio aids and his skill in the operation of these he helped his pilot to save the aircraft from —"
BW: “Damage. Saved the aircraft from damage and the crews from —"
HH: “Injury.”
BW: “Injury.”
HH: That’s a long time ago [laughs]
BW: So that —
HH: 1946.
BW: Yeah. That is a citation that was presumably made into your logbook for skill in flying and avoiding an accident and injury to crew.
HH: Yeah.
BW: That’s very unique.
HH: That’s this one here.
BW: Well done.
HH: In six —
BW: So, 608 Squadron.
HH: Downham Market.
BW: Downham Market.
HH: That’s operations. Yeah.
BW: I’ll just pause again while you look for another document.
[pause]
BW: So —
HH: This is a bit here.
BW: So, for your services you were awarded the DFC. Was that because it was standard for aircrew or —
HH: No. It’s —
BW: For people to be awarded after so many missions or was there an act of gallantry.
HH: There wasn’t anything definite. But all pilots, when they did a tour of operations, all pilots automatically got a DFC. But I did fifty operations and I suppose that’s why I got it.
BW: Because you’d done over fifty ops.
HH: Hmmn?
BW: Because you’d done over fifty ops.
HH: No. The war finished then. No. Yeah, I could have done a lot more. Yeah.
BW: It’s quite something though to have come through so many operations. As you said before particularly because so many aircrew were killed during that time.
HH: It was just less than two months ago on the television they were doing some sort of programme and they said only one aircrew member in forty [pause] only one aircrew member in a hundred was it, survived forty operations. I forget the exact number now. I know that was forty operations and there were very few people.
BW: Yeah.
HH: That had done that.
BW: Yeah. That’s quite something. That’s quite an excellent sort of achievement really.
HH: See these things here. You’ve seen them [pause] This. My navigation logs. That’s, I think, I don’t know which aircraft that is. Put that other light on.
BW: So these are on, let’s have a look.
[pause]
BW: So these navigation logs are also recorded in —
HH: Yes.
BW: Wartime service so did you have to fill out effectively two logs.
HH: Some of them. Some of them are. Not all of them I don’t think. I’m trying to see.
BW: You Ok?
HH: Yeah. Where’s the switch? Oh, it’s up here [pause] The light switch is on there.
BW: So did navigators have to fill out another log as well as their own flying log?
HH: No.
BW: For operations.
HH: No.
BW: Or was this just done as an instructor?
HH: This light doesn’t work now. Oh wait a minute. Maybe it does. No. It’s broken. That’s why it’s off. I think the bulbs gone. Yeah. It’s —
BW: It’s alright.
[pause]
BW: Ok.
HH: You’ve got that all on there.
BW: So these records are all on the disc as well.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
BW: Ok.
HH: It’ll take a lot of printing out.
BW: It looks like it. Yeah.
HH: And that’s.— [pause]
BW: Ok. I’ll just pause the recording while we look through for the documents.
[recording paused]
What I’ll do I’ll end the recording there. We’ve had a look through some documents and photographs of your time in the Far East. So all that’s left to do is, on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre is just to say thank you very much for your time Mr Harris. It’s very good of you.
HH: You’ll find a lot of things in these.
BW: Thank you.
HH: These CDs. Yeah.
BW: Yeah. We’ll arrange to get your CDs and documents copied by one of the other volunteers. They will send somebody out but they weren’t able to do that today. So we’ll sort that out for you. Thank you.
[recording paused]
BW: Very much so. Yeah.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Harris
Creator
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Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-09-09
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisHST150909
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:19:59 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry ‘Sam’ Harris grew up in Scotland and volunteered for the Air Force. He trained as a navigator in South Africa. On the penultimate day of his training he flew over a multitude of lifeboats bearing the survivors of a torpedoed ship. The next day he flew over a U-Boat above water and the pilot turned the aircraft to attack it. On return to Great Britain he was posted to 576 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds. After his first tour he wanted to continue to fly and was posted to a Mosquito Squadron. He discusses being attacked by a Me 262. He notes that of the thirty two men who passed out with him in South Africa only eleven were left after the war and three of those had been prisoners of war. After the war Harry stayed in the RAF and flew in a wide variety of aircraft.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Norway
South Africa
Arctic Ocean--North Pole
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Scotland--Montrose
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1944
1945
1946
105 Squadron
576 Squadron
608 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
briefing
C-47
control caravan
crewing up
debriefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Gee
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
Me 262
Meteor
military living conditions
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
promotion
RAF Downham Market
RAF Elsham Wolds
searchlight
service vehicle
submarine
superstition
training
Wellington
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/591/8860/AJonesF150731.1.mp3
86afe35b0e7335acc49e9f49e10f4275
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jones, Frank
F Jones
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jones, F
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Derek Jones, Frank Jones's son. Frank Jones flew operations as a bomb aimer with 158 Squadron. Includes photographs of aircrew.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: We are going to erm, read some of his father’s notes, that he’s going to explain that
DJ: Disembarked and travelled to RAF Hednesford on the 16th of July 1946, then on the 20th of July with demob leave until the 30th of November 1946, to apply for a job and so ended my war time service of five years, nine months and twenty-eight days.
[recording paused]
BB: This is the interview with Mr Frank Jones’s son, Derek, as Mr Jones senior is, is an elderly gentleman and er, is, has a frail sounding voice, but he is present and er, he does give his permission. And so, I er, would just like to say that the meeting is being held in my house in Dunblane and it’s now twelve fifteen.
[recording paused]
DJ: I have found my Dad’s notes written in his own hand about his war time experiences. It covers in detail his enlistment, training camps, time abroad, how his crew were put together, bombing raids and his demobilisation, plus other interesting and unusual stories. They were written decades ago but they are primary source material and accurate. They will help with the recording and here is the information from those notes:
Prior to joining the forces in World War two, I had left school at sixteen and trained as a horticulturist with the Liverpool Corporation, having successfully passed my gardening exams, I decided to follow three of my brothers and join the forces. On the 1st of October 1941, I joined the RAF at Padgate, Warrington, aged eighteen. After basic training in England, I spent the next two years training in South Africa. I trained in Whitley, Anson and Oxford aircraft. The training included dinghy and parachute drills, I was continuously tested in subjects such as navigation plotting, astro navigation, compasses, maps and charts, instruments, reconnaissance and photography. I remember completing fifty hours in an Anson and twelve hours in an Oxford as detailed in my flying book. Er, when my training in South Africa was almost complete, I qualified as a navigator bomb aimer, at Queenstown, on the 29th of May 1943. In the following month on the nineteenth of June I qualified as an air gunner at ninety, er, No. 43 Air Gunners school.
Back in Britain, at the beginning of 1944, I continued flying training in the Whitley, this training was to hone my skills acquired in South Africa. My main role in those training flights was air-bomber, I also carried out simulation and bombing practice. My training in Whitley and Anson aircraft was at RAF Kinloss at No. 19 OTU, flying time totalled just over ninety-three hours. From May 1944 until June the 13th, there were more training flights, practising among other things, circuits and landings, three engine landings, bombing, fighter affiliation, instrument flying. By this time, I had completed two hundred and forty hours in the air since the beginning of my training. [pause]
I was based at RAF Lissett near Bridlington with 158 Squadron, whose motto was ‘Strength through Unity’. My crew for all the operations that I flew were, pilot Fred Meaden, Alf Shorter, Mac Harris, Ray Wells, Ron Evans and Dave Lockyer. On the twenty-third of June nineteen forty-four, I took part in my first op when we flew to [unclear] I was a bomb aimer, I was positioned in a streamline Perspex nose, with a single hand-held machine gun. From then on, I completed another thirty-four operations before being screened. I flew in a Handley Page Halifax Mk 3 with improved Bristol Hercules engines instead of the Merlin engine which was used in the Mk 2 Halifax. With a maximum speed of two hundred and eighty miles an hour and a range of twelve hundred miles fully loaded, the targets we went after were largely German industrial ones. [pause]
My, one of my most dangerous was the one in which I was awarded the DFM for, er, it was the 12th of September 1944 at Gelsenkirchen Nordstern, it was a daylight raid against a synthetic oil refinery. On the run-up to the target our aircraft came under heavy accurate flak and in the book, “In Brave Company”, Ray Wells, the flight engineer, described the attack as follows. ‘When pilot Fred Meaden arrived over the city, bomb aimer Flight Sergeant Jones was unable to pick out the aiming point through the banks of smoke and cloud, calmly he asked the pilot to make a second and then a third orbit, before he called, ‘bombs gone’. By this time, we had lost the main force and we turned to England as quickly as we could. The next morning our ground crew had found half of the rudder control cable severed by flak’. As my pilot Fred Meaden said in my citation for the DFM, I was always completely determined to press home the attack and to ensure the accuracy of my bombing, I frequently asked him to orbit the target.
BB: That must have been very annoying for the crew and very frustrating for the crew.
FJ: It was!
BB: But you had to get the picture and you had to get the photo of the last picture and you had to hit the target, so there was no, the pilot got you there, the gunners protected you, but you [emphasis] had to drop the bombs.
FJ: That’s right.
BB: And that was a very important part.
DJ: In total, I flew thirty-five sorties and my last one was on the 2nd of November 1944, on a night time raid to Dusseldorf. By this time, I’d completed two hundred and fifty-four hours of day time flying and a hundred and seventy-one hours of night time flying. Er, overall, I had fifty, fifty-five thousand men died in the air war and that is one in every two men who joined up. I was fortunate to be in 158 Squadron, which I believe had fewer losses than many other squadrons. Also, those flying in the Halifax Mk 3, suffered fewer casualties perhaps because of the improved ceiling limit and the greater manoeuvrability of the plane. When the war concluded, I decided that I would not return to my old job as a horticulturalist, instead I decided to become a teacher. Like so many of my generation the war had a decisive impact on my life and the course I followed thereafter.
BB: Thank you very much for reading that Derek and thank you very much Frank for telling us your story. It’s tremendously interesting to hear erm, these things first hand from people who were there, and that’s the whole point of this archive, so that generations in the future will benefit from your story and the stories of others, so thank you very much and we now will conclude this interview at twelve-thirty. Thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Derek Jones
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJonesF150731
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:08:10 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bomb aimer Frank Jones wrote notes decades ago regarding his service in Bomber Command with 158 Squadron. His son, Derek reads his father’s story, which includes his early life, enlisting into the RAF and training in navigation at No. 43 Air Gunners school in South Africa. Frank was based at RAF Lissett after his training. He reads about Frank’s opereation over Gelsenkirchen Nordstern where he earnt the DFM for his bravery. Frank completed thirty-five operations and mentions the names of his crew. After the war Frank decided not to go back to horticulture but to become a teacher and states that the war had a decisive impact on his life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Carolyn Emery
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
158 Squadron
19 OTU
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
Distinguished Flying Medal
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
RAF Kinloss
RAF Lissett
RAF Padgate
training
Whitley
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hollis, Arthur
Arthur Norman Hollis
A N Hollis
Description
An account of the resource
56 items. The collection concerns Arthur Hollis (b. 1922) who joined the RAF in 1940 and after training completed a tour on 50 Squadron before becoming an instructor. At the end of the war he was deployed as part of Tiger Force. Collection contains a biography and memoir, his logbook, correspondence, training records, photographs of people, aircraft and places, his medals and flying jacket. It includes an oral history interview with his son, Richard Hollis.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Hollis and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-07
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hollis, AN
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Completed course and left this Unit. 10th. November, 1943.
[Underlined] ROYAL AIR FORCE. [Underlined] Form 364 (b).
[Underlined] Flying Instructors’ School Report on an Officer or Airman Pilot undergoing a Flying Instructor’s Course. [/Underlined]
(This form is also to be used for re-categorising instructors).
(See Instructions over.)
Name Hollis A.N. Unit 11 O.T.U.
Rank F/O. A/F/L. Number 124522
Duration of training – From 13th October, 1943. To 10th November, 1943.
Purpose or No. of Course O.T.U. Staff Pilots’ Course No.48.
1. Flying Times: -
[Flying Times Table]
2. Ground Training- Fling Instructor’s Course:-
[Ground Training- Fling Instructor’s Course Table]
3. Assessment of Ability:-
(i) as pilot Day Average
Night Average
(ii) as flying instructor Average.
(iii) as B.A. instructor N/A.
[Inserted] C.I. C P2 [/Inserted]
[Page Break]
4. Remarks by Chief Instructor:- This officer will make a most useful instructor being thorough with his patter which is put over in an interesting manner. He has a clear telephone voice and takes any amount of trouble with his explanations. His demonstrations are accurately executed. A good average pilot who should prove his worth as an instructor at 11 O.T.U. A sound reliable officer.
5. Remarks by Commanding Officer:-
Cat. Recommended “Q” (M.E.)
(Sgd) C.W.S. Thomas, S/Ldr. O.C. No.1 Sqdn.
I agree.
Previous Category (if any) NIL.
Category now recommended “Q” (M.E.)
Date 9th November, 1943.
(Sgd) R. J. Gosnell, W/Cdr.
Commanding No. 3 Flying Instructors’ School.
[Underlined] INSTRUCTIONS. [/Underlined]
1. This report will be rendered in respect of any officer or airman pilot undergoing training or test as a Flying Instructor.
2. Distribution of the completed report will be as follows:-
The Air Ministry, S.7.d (2) (In respect of officers) 1 copy.
The Air Ministry, D.P. 2 (In respect of airman) 1 copy.
Empire Central Flying School 1 copy.
Air Officer i/c Records (in respect of airmen) 1 copy.
Unit to which an instructor is posted on completion of training 1 copy.
3. Assessments of ability in Section 3 of the Form are to be one of the following:-
Exceptional.
Above Average.
Average.
Below Average.
4. Flying instructors are categorised on the following basis:-
B. Qualified to instruct (SE) (ME) or (Elementary).
C. Has the makings of an instructor with practise. Permitted to instruct on probation.
5. GROUND TRAINING:- To secure a pass a pilot under training as a flying instructor must obtain not less than 50 per cent. in each subject of the examination and not less the 60 per cent. of the total marks.
(*12006-10547) Wt. 9269-5997 12,500 5/43 T.S. 700.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Arthur Hollis: flying instructors' school report
Form 364 (b)
Description
An account of the resource
Including duration and purpose of course, flying time on Oxford, ground training results, assessment of ability etc. Remarks by Chief Instructor include: 'A good average pilot who should prove his worth at 11 OTU. A sound reliable officer.'
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-11-09
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11-09
1943-11-10
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Language
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eng
Type
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Text. Service material
Text
Contributor
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Bradley Froggatt
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
C W S Thomas and R J Gosnell
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MHollisAN124522-171107-030001.1
MHollisAN124522-171107-030002.1
11 OTU
aircrew
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Westcott
training
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1093/11552/ARichardsHJ180219.2.mp3
bd7288acde305764a090df198fd0dad8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Richards, Harold James
H J Richards
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Harold James Richards (1922 - 2020, 1451874 Royal Air Force) photographs and his log book. He flew operations as a navigator with 297 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Harold Richards and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Richards, HJ
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. The person being interviewed is Harold James Richards. Also known as Rick to his family, and Harry. The interviewer is myself, Cathy Brearley. Also present is Marion Giddings who is Harry’s neighbour. And the date today is Monday the 19th of February 2018. This interview is taking place at Harry’s home in Lincoln. So, first of all Harry I’d like to thank you for giving us this interview. And please could you begin by talking a little bit about your childhood. Where you were born and where you grew up and about your family and your early years.
HR: I was born in Lincoln. A couple of miles from here. And I lived in Lincoln all my childhood really. And moving around various parts in that sort of area. In the centre. The centre sort of in Lincoln. And then I did my schooling in Lincoln. And eventually left school when I was eighteen which was fast approaching the outbreak of war.
CB: Yeah. What line of work was your father in? And your mother if she worked?
HR: What?
CB: What line of work were your parents in?
HR: My father was a printing operator. Operated some sort of printing machine for one of the local papers. Mother didn’t work of course because I had a sister and two brothers. All older than me. I was the babba of the family. And [pause] well, my normal school life came to an end when I was sixteen actually. And I went and started my first job in the National Health Service. Well, it wasn’t the National Health Service then but it was a health service. And —
CB: And what was that you were doing?
HR: Clerical. And I stayed in that until I decided it was getting a bit — time for call up. So, I made the decision that I would volunteer. And at that point I volunteered for the air force having had previous training with the Air Training Corps and things like that. Sort of local interests with the airfields local. Scampton and Waddington you see. They were all on the go in those days. And eventually in oh would it be ’41 I was called up to [pause] Well, I joined up. Let’s put it that way.
CB: Yes.
HR: I can’t remember where I went to. I know where I went to but I can’t remember the name.
CB: Yes. Yes.
HR: And eventually one of the places I went to in my call up area was Lord’s Cricket Ground in London. Stayed down there and then ultimately I was brought into the service. Joined up. And joined up as a trainee aircrew and did my training. Part of which was in Scarborough. And eventually, having finished my, that sort of training I was then joined a flying school. Flying training. But I didn’t do very well at that. I wasn’t a blue eyed boy there and eventually I was told that they could do a lot better without me so I had to re-muster. And at that stage I was in Carlisle I think and my next move actually was on board ship. And I was sent to South Africa to [pause] not complete but to start a new period of training. And I did precisely the same in Bulawayo as I’d been doing in Scarborough. Slightly, the temperature was slightly different [laughs] And eventually I moved up the ladder there and finished my elementary training and was then signed on for air observer. And at that time I went to [pause]
[recording paused]
CB: So it was near —
HR: Near Pretoria.
CB: Right. Ok. Can I just ask you a few questions about some of the information you’ve already given?
HR: Yeah.
CB: When you went to Lord’s Cricket Ground how long were you there for and what happened there?
HR: A flying visit [laughs] Not really a flying one but in and out. There was no training or anything there. It was merely a sort of attestation. That type of thing, you know.
CB: So that’s the enrolment paperwork.
HR: But it sounds good in your —
CB: And did you have a medical somewhere?
HR: Yes. I would have had the medical in the first one I went to which was the main [pause] the main joining up place. I can’t think of the name of it. That’s my trouble.
CB: That’s ok. And then flying school in Carlisle.
HR: Yeah. Well, that was just —
CB: Tell me about Carlisle. What happened there? How long were you there for?
HR: About two months. I was flying. Part of my sort of my pilot’s training course but that that was I found I got my final papers from them. And as I say it finished up on the boat out to South Africa.
CB: And what aircraft did you fly on your training?
HR: Magisters .
CB: Sorry?
HR: Magisters.
CB: And then you went on the ship to South Africa.
HR: And then we went on ship to South Africa.
CB: And how long did that journey take?
HR: Not very long because we went sort of on our own and — no. Sorry. We went with an escort. We were in a — what did they call it? Convoy. Went in a convoy. So it took us about three weeks I think.
CB: Right.
HR: And then we landed in Cape. When we landed in Cape Town we got on board the train which took us up, all the way up country to Bulawayo in what was in those days Rhodesia.
CB: So, what happened during those three weeks on ship?
HR: Nothing. Apart from just keeping yourself occupied really. As far as I remember. I suppose we would have had talks and lectures and things like that. They’d obviously have to keep up the, the appearance.
CB: Of training.
HR: [laughs]
CB: So when you got to Bulawayo —
HR: Yeah.
CB: What happened there?
HR: I did a — I went back to elementary training. Nothing to do with flying. I went back on to the same as I’d done in this country. And I did that course and then it was from there that I moved over to Pretoria and started my [pause] Well, I suppose in those days it was air bombing course.
CB: And how long did that last?
HR: Can you leave that? I’ll get it but it’ll be in the —
CB: It’ll be in your logbook. Yes. Ok. Yeah. Yes. So —
HR: And after that it was a question of coming back to this country and eventually I was posted to the squadron which was 297 Squadron. And it was posted, it was at a place called Stoney Cross in Hampshire. This was just a — I suppose a temporary thing. And the peculiar thing was when I got there I realised that it was partly an army camp. But I didn’t make the connection at that stage. It was only later that I sort of realised the connection between 297 Squadron and the army which I’ll tell you about later.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can tell me now whilst we’re talking about it.
HR: Well, I mean eventually when I got on the squadron we used to do quite a bit in the way of cross country trips and sometimes we used to take paratroops with us. And at other times we used to take gliders. So there’s the army connection coming in like sort of at the beginning.
CB: And what was the aircraft you were in at that time?
HR: Albemarle.
CB: That was — and you were bomb aimer and navigator.
HR: Well, I was trained as a, as a navigator and a bomb aimer which you see in the logbook. But there I tended to be more on the bomb aiming side because I spent quite a bit of the time map reading. And by that I mean we used to do a lot, an awful lot of what we called cross country’s. And we’d go off in a, in an aircraft with either troops to drop at a dropping zone or pulling a glider with troops aboard which was similar to a DZ. A dropping zone.
CB: Yes. So what were your early thoughts when you first arrived on squadron and were in aircraft?
HR: Well, to be quite shattered. Well, to be quite honest I was shattered because Stoney Cross was miles away from anywhere. It was about fifteen miles from Southampton and I think about ten from — I’m trying to think of the name of the other place in the other direction.
CB: Portsmouth.
HR: No. It was only just a smallish place. But I mean any place was was home for, from the camp, you know.
CB: So, you were quite a long way from home weren’t you really?
HR: Quite a lot. Well, I mean we were more or less just outside Southampton in effect. Which was a fair distance.
CB: Do you remember getting much leave to go home and see family?
HR: Well, yes. I suppose we had. We had quite satisfactory. I didn’t, didn’t concern — didn’t concern me much actually. I was courting at the time but I wasn’t married so it, I hadn’t got the claim to be getting home at every touch and turn sort of thing.
CB: So, was your girlfriend in Lincoln at the time?
HR: Sorry?
CB: Was your girlfriend in Lincoln at the time?
HR: In Lincoln. Yeah. She lived up at — on the Nettleham Road in those days. So —
CB: What about written correspondence? Letters. Were you a good letter writer?
HR: Oh, we had them. Just the same as everybody else really. We didn’t have any, any problem. But as I say we spent quite a lot of time in the air. In fact I had one of my pals he couldn’t stand the pressure and he had to give it up. Well, had to give it up. He was medically unfit to carry on so you can imagine that it was pretty hectic at that time. Well, that more or less carried on then right the way through until we got to the sort of D-Day.
CB: And what were conditions like at, on base?
HR: Well, they were Nissen huts. Nissen huts right out in the country.
CB: Was it cold in winter?
HR: No. I don’t think it was. I can’t ever remember it being sort of snowy. It was somewhere in the middle of the — is it the New Forest down there? Is it the [pause] You could tell it was a bit isolated.
CB: What about other nationalities who were there?
HR: We didn’t have any. They were all —
CB: All British.
HR: As far as I recall, apart from the Scots and Welsh and that sort of thing we didn’t have any foreign. Not that I’m aware. I can’t remember to be quite honest. I don’t even remember my own. My own crew. I mean I remember them basically but if you asked me to describe them or say what nationality they were I wouldn’t know.
CB: Ok.
[recording paused]
CB: So you went on a trip in to the village.
HR: Well, it was not a, not planned at all. It, it was just that I was so I suppose isolated at the time. It was fairly early on. I thought oh damn it. I’m going to have a walk down to the village [laughs] or to a village. I wasn’t sure quite where. So, I walked down this, the camp road and got to the main road at the bottom and before I’d done a lot of map reading I turned left. I walked about, oh a mile along that road. Nothing happened. I thought I’ll turn around and go back. So I went back. I thought well I’ll go on. A bit further on. And that’s when I went to Ringwood. And that was when I, I didn’t actually buy the ring at that time but I spied the ground at that time.
CB: For your wedding ring.
HR: For my wedding ring. Not necessarily but I saw there was a jeweller there and so that was it. But that was the sort of isolation that I felt at that time.
CB: And did you choose your wife’s wedding ring from the same place?
HR: Sorry?
CB: Did you choose your wife’s wedding ring from the same place?
HR: I could have done. I don’t recall actually. I definitely remember doing this. But no I think she probably came with me when I, when I bought that because — well actually we didn’t get married until what, two years after I came out of the air force. So that would put us up to 1948. So, it was a bit early then. We’re talking now about, I suppose ’42. Something like that. ’42 ’43 when I was down there.
CB: Can you tell me something about the navigational aids that you used? Either in training or in flight.
HR: Yeah. Basically in my training I tended to do the normal. I can’t remember the technology now. The normal one where you had ordinary — had to do it all by maps and plotting and things like that. I mean these days they’ve got things. Not these days but later on we had things called Rebecca. Which was a type of homing signal. And of course there was what they called Gee. That was another one.
CB: I’ve heard of Gee.
HR: You’ve heard of Gee have you?
CB: Can you explain how it worked?
HR: It’s, oh don’t ask me how it works. No. No. I’m afraid that was a bit beyond me. I, because by that time I was more or less concentrating on the bomb aiming side of it. Other than the navigational map reading which was obviously necessary in these SOE cases.
CB: So, where did you go to after being down near Southampton?
HR: Stoney Cross. I’m a bit vague as to where I, where I was stationed other than I remember a station some time up in Yorkshire. I think it was Hutton Cranswick or, oh Linton on Ouse. Linton on Ouse was one that I was at. But that was later on. I can’t remember. I was also at Brize Norton for a while. But those tended to be later on. I think there must have been some earlier ones. I think there was one called Hutton Cranswick or something like that. That was up in Yorkshire.
[pause]
HR: But those all tended to be later on. I can’t think. I’ve been trying to think of what, what camps I was on but I think I was basically at Stoney Cross most of my early time. Unfortunately, my logbook doesn’t show it you see other than I could probably work it out by the trips we went on. Because I always put on the logbook the actual route that we were taking.
CB: So, how did you come to be involved with the SOE operations?
HR: Well, it must have been from the start. I wasn’t aware of it other than the fact as I say that we’d got army connections. That was the only thing that made it any different from these, these places up here. Of course the other thing is that whenever one went on an op you went on your own. I mean, you didn’t, you didn’t go up in a flurry like they do for the Bomber Command. You see they go up and there’s probably twelve aircraft go off at the same time. Well, we used to just sneak off at all sorts of different times.
CB: And how much notice would you get?
HR: We would know on the day we were going. They would tell us in the morning you see. And then probably we’d have some sort of a briefing in the afternoon. Wouldn’t be a great deal because obviously they wouldn’t know a great deal. They’d just say you go across the Channel and then when you get get there then you just find your way from there sort of thing. That’s how it used to work.
CB: And was most of this work done at night? When you were doing the drops.
HR: Oh it would all be at night. Yeah. There was no, well there were a few, a few day trips but they weren’t I remember one day trip we had to to Oslo. But that’s the only time I can ever remember that we went in the daylight.
CB: And I’ve read that it was often the drops, the night drops were often scheduled around the phases of the moon and so that you would have some light.
HR: Well it could. We had nothing else you see.
CB: Yeah.
HR: You see, you imagine when we, that the the practice was that one would take off from your ‘drome, go across the Channel at about what? Three hundred feet. Very low anyway. Before you got to the coast you’d start to climb to make sure that you were sufficiently high enough to get out of the range of the guns or whatever and then of course when you got the other side you had to drop. And the rest of it you see was at about what? Three hundred feet. Well, there’s nothing. You can see nothing at night at three hundred feet. I mean you can’t look for trains or bus stations or things like that you see. It’s a question of looking for places where there was, well forestries or woods. That was another darker sort of area you see that you would find on your maps and —
CB: So, it’s quite dangerous then isn’t it?
HR: Well it wasn’t, it wasn’t —
CB: Rather than obviously open spaces.
HR: Although we were lucky actually because whenever they gave you somewhere it was usually in a reasonably unbuilt, not built up area because obviously you see these people were having to come out to receive you as it were. So, you could only really go in the moonlight where you would get the moon, picking up or picked up by the water if there was any lakes or rivers. That was another thing. If you got on a river you were alright because you could follow it you see.
CB: And did the people on the ground use torchlight to help you?
HR: They did. They did but it was a slow sort of situation because obviously they were careful and so were we. So I mean when you got to what you thought was roughly where you should be you just had to look and see if there was any, any possible lights. I mean these lights were given at a certain signal to give which we would be informed of. They’d be saying, well they’d be flashing out whatever. The signal. And then at that point then you could start doing, offloading your containers or whatever you were taking.
CB: So, it would be a different signal each time. What sort of —
HR: Oh yes. It wasn’t general. No. It was just a—
CB: And what sort of a signal might it be? Was it based on Morse code signalling at all?
HR: Oh yeah.
CB: Yeah. So would it be a code word maybe?
HR: It could have been a code word. It could have been anything really as long as it was something that wasn’t easily sort of dis well not discernable but able to work it out quickly.
CB: Do you remember any of the signals that were —
HR: No. I don’t. No.
CB: Particularly given.
HR: Actually it used to be the job of the gunner to flash the signal but — or the navigator often did because I was, as I say I was busy trying to locate what we called the DZ. The dropping zone.
CB: And I imagine it was a mixture of dropping agents as well as sometimes supplies.
HR: Well, we didn’t have any agents dropping. They were, they were a completely different concern as far as we were concerned because obviously they used to fly from Tempsford on the north, Great North Road there. That was their, their headquarters.
CB: I understand.
HR: And they had their own squadron there actually. In fact if you look at this book they’ll tell you that 138 Squadron was, was their actual, the squadron that did all the —
CB: The agent drops.
HR: Taking the agents. Plus of course the Lysanders. They used to do a lot. You’ve seen these funny little Lysanders. Well, they used to do a lot of that sort of thing.
CB: I see. Yes. Yes, the —
HR: No. Ours was completely material. We used to drop containers which contained all sorts of things.
CB: Yes. The book you refer to is a book that both Harry and I both have called, “Forgotten Voices of the Secret War,” by Roderick Bailey. Which is about SOE operations. So, what sort of supplies would you be dropping?
HR: Well, frankly we wouldn’t know. I I don’t know anything that I dropped other than the fact that it was a container.
CB: What sort of size container was it? In feet for example.
HR: Well, it always liked a coffin but it was obviously bigger than a coffin. But that type of thing along. Well, have you seen them in these books? That’s the type of thing. And they had all sorts of things that —
CB: They must have been quite robust to have withstood being dropped from —
HR: Oh yeah.
CB: So high.
HR: Well, we used to drop about what three hundred or something like that you see. And it was on soft soil hopefully. If nobody was in the way.
CB: Would you have to go around for other drops or would you be able to —
HR: Oh no. It would be one drop and off. Oh yes it was, it was paraphernalia to do all. Get the aircraft in position and get it with the, with the wheels — well some. Most of the time they’d put the wheels down to give you more resistance and the flaps and all sorts making it as easy as they could. Comparatively so. So, of course as soon as you dropped them everything was brought up. Wheels up and the flaps up and we were off. But it was just one. One trip around.
CB: And would you typically fly with the same pilot and other aircrew?
HR: We had our own, we had our own crew. Yeah. The crew was, was more or less fixed. In fact I had one. I had one, one fella well you’ll see in the logbook for about half my period and then I had another one. Changed me over.
CB: Do you remember the names?
HR: Yeah. Shortman, Flight Lieutenant Shortman was the first one. And the other one was Millnoy.
CB: Mill —
HR: Flight Lieutenant.
CB: Millroy.
HR: Millnoy.
CB: And the aircraft?
HR: I only remember them because I’ve got them in my logbook you see.
CB: And what was the aircraft you were using for that?
HR: Albemarle for that one. I’ve got a photograph actually but you can’t see a great deal of it.
[recording paused]
CB: So, can you tell me about how you went around the country in the aircraft showing them to other RAF bases.
HR: Well, prior to the invasion we had the task of going around the different areas of particular defences that might be involved in any sort of attack. Either by the Germans or us going over there. And these aircraft were specifically being used. All the British and all the, the allied, all the allied aircraft were marked with this particular white marking on the fuselage. And we went to Linton on Ouse in Yorkshire. We went up to Turnhouse in Scotland. And I think we went to another place in, in Hutton Cranswick. I seem to remember that. That was up in Yorkshire. But operationally I don’t think we moved from Stoney Cross. I can’t ever remember, except moving to Brize Norton and that was specifically for the D-Day and Arnhem and the crossing of the Rhine. I think we went from Brize Norton for, for those. But in turn we went from Brize Norton to the one on the coast in, in Kent. Oh God, what’s the name of it now? Well known one. Right on the tip of the coast there.
CB: Not sure.
HR: Well, that was the one we actually went from for those three. On those three occasions.
CB: So tell me about D-Day.
HR: Not much to tell. No. We were unfortunate that we lost a glider. How —?
CB: Did that ditch in the Channel?
HR: Oh. We got over the coast. Oh we were virtually there. Well, sort of midway between the water and the, the battlefield as it were at that time. So we were within a matter of miles but it just disappeared. Unfortunately.
CB: Yes. Yes.
HR: I never heard anything about it but then naturally one wouldn’t.
CB: And Arnhem.
HR: Similar. Similar.
CB: Similar loss.
HR: But we didn’t get as far there. In fact, when you see the logbooks you’ll find that I think we did an hour and a half on D Day and an hour to Arnhem. Something like that.
CB: And the Rhine?
HR: And the — we crossed that alright. Yes. We did that. Five hour journey. Five. Five hours seventy five I think it was. Something like that.
CB: And that, was that dropping supplies?
HR: That was taking, that was taking troops. We took gliders. Those were glider. Glider towings. So we lost the glider which was the annoying part because we don’t know what happened to the men. But what happened? I’m not suggesting anything.
CB: That indicates the degree of difficulty of the actual role.
HR: I mean it could have been something that broke. Could be a, you know sort of the rope. The rope. The wire between plane and glider broke. Came undone. No idea.
CB: So how many troops would fit in a glider typically?
HR: Oh not a lot. About ten to twenty I should think. Something like that. They’d be just like, just like, you know what an aircraft looks like inside. You know, forget all about the driver and his sort of area and I mean you’ve got the whole of that because there wouldn’t be anybody there. There would be a pilot. A couple of pilots you see with a glider pilot with a glider. And they would take over you see once the thing was released. But they’d just be pilot on either side. Probably about, there might be about seven or eight on either side of the fuselage. It depends on the size because you had, you had two types of glider at that time. We had the Hamilcar which was the big one. And then we had the smaller one which was the [pause] oh my God what did they call that?
CB: I’ve heard of Horsa gliders. I’ve heard of Horsa gliders.
HR: That’s right. Horsa. Yeah. Well, they were the smaller ones. But the bigger one was the [pause] was the other one.
CB: Do you know if that’s something that men would volunteer for? To go in a glider. Or would they be ordered.
HR: It would be part of their training. Part of their duty. I mean they didn’t mind which way they went as long as they went. These lads. They were [laughs] as we call it muck and nettles [laughs]
CB: And I imagine there’s a lot of risks in safely landing a glider as well.
HR: Well, providing the, the area is right to land there shouldn’t be any difficulty because after all you take them to what they called the dropping zone and that’s, that’s perfectly clear. The difficulty is that if it gets in to rough territory then it gets difficult because I mean there’s no engine or anything like that to help them land. So it was just a question of going into the ground really. Trying to get a long clear run.
CB: And what sort of height would you be at?
HR: Oh not very high. When we were towing them we’d only be about fifteen hundred or something like that.
CB: And the Rhine operation was a more successful one.
HR: I don’t know much about that because we went straight there and straight back. I’ve got no idea what happened there.
CB: Was that lots of gliders went at the same time on that one?
HR: Would have been. Yeah. Yeah. It would have been quite a sight I would think from the ground.
CB: What sort of number?
HR: Hmmn?
CB: What sort of number?
HR: I honestly don’t know. I honestly don’t know because obviously it’s something that we would look upon it as a normal sort of process I suppose but —
[recording paused]
CB: So are there any other particular events or moments that you recall for any reason? Either humorous or particularly dangerous or near misses.
HR: I can’t think of any near misses. I mean the procedure was — on an ordinary operation the procedure was quite simple. We, we would have a briefing. But again unlike Bomber Command we went in singles. We didn’t, we didn’t go in, in loads. And then the idea would be flying sort of very low over the water and climb up to keep out of the way of ack ack stuff. And then immediately you got over there, drop and then it would be a question of map reading yourself to wherever you were going.
CB: I imagine you were kept fairly busy during —
HR: Well, I didn’t do anything other than map read the whole time that I was once I got to the coast that was it. I mean I was immediately confined to the nose and that was it. And I would sort of help the navigator if he was in any sort of trouble. If he sort of said, ‘Can you, can you see anything down there?’ And it would be a question then yes or no. And then we would be praying that somebody would be coming out to meet us. We would aim to get to a particular place. We’d know where it was. We’d get what they — a map reading reference. And we’d, they’d be aiming for that. They’d have picked a course to get there. And then it’s a question of looking. Trying to see something as you went past.
CB: Did you typically go to France?
HR: Oh yes. Yes. I had I think about three journeys there from what I can recall.
CB: Where else did you go other than France?
HR: Oslo.
CB: You mentioned Oslo.
HR: Just those four places because my ops actually only totalled, I think about ten. Something like that. And that included some of these aborted ones. So I didn’t have a great deal of experience on that.
CB: What sort of things were you able to see from the air that you could use as landmarks other than obviously rivers and train lines?
HR: Well, just rivers really. And, and trees. The forests or parks or anything that gave a darker sort of appearance from I mean because you’ve got to remember you were whizzing along at about three hundred miles an hour. Two hundred and fifty. That sort of speed. So you didn’t have a lot of time to see anything. But I mean you just set, set course from a particular point and then that was it. Well, then once you got to what you thought was a sort of vicinity of where you wanted to be it would be all eyes out trying to find this lamp that you’re supposed to be looking for. And then of course once the lamp was sighted then you would do a couple of circuits probably just to make sure that it wasn’t somebody just going to see the cows or something like that. Just to see that they were the right sort of people. And, and then it, once you got agreement I mean there would be signalling between us and the ground. Once you got communication as it were then it would be as I say preparing the aircraft to make the drop. You’d have to find out which way the wind was coming. Obviously to be going into the wind to drop it. To, you know, make it that much easier. And once they, once the people on the ground started to collect they’d make a line for you. And the idea would be to drop the containers on that line of lights. And if everything went ok well then it would be a question of putting the aircraft back into flying mode and off.
CB: And over the time you probably flew in a lot of aircraft. A lot of different aircraft as part of your training and operations. Which was the first aircraft you ever went in?
HR: I should think it was probably when I was flying pilot. Tiger Moth. And then a Magister. And then I started on the, the other navigational ones and they were things like Oxford. Oh I’ve got a list of them somewhere. I don’t know whether I can —
[recording paused]
CB: So you flew in a lot of different aircraft and you have a list there of all the aircraft you flew in.
HR: I have. Well, prior to re-mustering I was on a pilot’s course and I flew then in Tiger Moths and Magisters. And then when I was removed [laughs]
CB: Relocated.
HR: I was scrubbed [laughs] and I went navigator/bomb aimer and I flew in Albemarle, Halifax, Wellington, Stirling, Whitley. Or as part of my training on, at navigation school I was in Ansons and Oxfords. I’ve just turned up a little note here. Operations. All I’ve done with this is that I’ve made a note of the time. The duration. And there’s one, two, three, four, five, six. There seems to be six of these that we’ve been talking about. These special deliveries. And then there’s one to Norway. I’ve said that. I don’t know what happened to that. I don’t remember very much of it. It was six hours anyway. And then I’ve got D-Day an hour. Then there was a trip when we did forty minutes. The aircraft was defective. And then there was one. The Arnhem one which was another hour. And the Rhine crossing — 5.25. So that, that was the operations.
CB: That’s a lot of different aircraft. Do you remember how, how different they seemed from each other? Obviously there’s a big difference between a Tiger Moth and a Halifax for example, isn’t there? What were they like to fly in? The different aircraft.
HR: I don’t think there was much difference frankly. Other than the fact that the, as I say some of them were faster than others and some were more defensive then others. More. Not that we ever were attacked. Although the funny thing was, I’ll tell you this, one of my pilots — are we on?
CB: We are.
HR: One of my pilots had a thing with his friend who was another of the pilots of the squadron of who could be attacked the most on these trips. And they used to have an examination when they returned to base to see whether there were any bullet holes anywhere. But that’s, that’s the sort of thing that you get. But that was my first pilot. Shortman. Flight Lieutenant Shortman. But the other one I didn’t do so well with him. He was the one that did all my failings.
CB: Did you have any lucky mascots that you took with you?
HR: No.
CB: I know some people did, didn’t they?
HR: Oh I’m sure they did. No. I’m afraid I was very fatalistic about it, you know. If it happens it happens.
CB: I was going to ask you if you were frightened. Or thought about it.
HR: No. I don’t think — I think the only time I felt a bit scared was as I say when we went to Norway it was — I was going to say a new country and didn’t quite know what might, might happen. And I got a feeling that there was other planes in the sky at the same time as us which I hadn’t had before. And I was a bit, wasn’t too happy then. I was pleased when we came away. Because we’d done an awful, we’d done six hours, you see which was about another two hours on top of our normal trip. But no. No. It’s just one of those things really I suppose.
CB: Did you have any particular rituals or habits or things you did?
HR: No. No.
CB: Do you remember others having those things?
HR: I can’t say that I do.
CB: And then the war came to an end.
HR: Yeah. Well, of course when the war came to an end it was, as far as I was concerned it was the end of the, of my career in the air force. Although I could have stayed on. For a time anyway. But of course it wasn’t. I already had a job. I’d got a job with the Health Service in those days.
CB: Did they keep your job for you, after the war for you?
HR: Oh yes. I was told that when I came back it would be there. So I came back and of course the pending wedding at that time of course because we got married in ’48. So, it was only sort of two years later. And so I, I decided that that was, that was the end. And I think that’s the end of my story.
CB: And what was your wife’s name?
HR: Vera.
CB: And then you remained in Lincoln ever since.
HR: Oh no. No. I’ve, when I, when I started up sort of back at hospital there I spent — well I was forty four years in the National Health Service. Or rather that and its predecessor. And I had a, funny thing I was going to show you this Marion.
[recording paused]
HR: Yes.
CB: So, you went back in to the Civil Service and you were in St Albans.
HR: I did. And I spent a total of forty four years in the National Health Service and the prior service. And eventually came back to, to Lincoln. And that’s really the story of my wartime I suppose.
CB: Was it usual for people’s jobs to be kept for them until after the end of the war?
HR: Well, mine was because I specifically, specifically asked whether it would be. And when I was told I obviously took advantage of it. But had they said no, well then I would probably have stayed on in the air force. For a time anyway. Because I’d got up to warrant officer by then you see. So it was far as I could, I could get without going in for a commission. Which I probably would have gone in for, you know. If I’d stayed in.
CB: Was that something that the NHS typically did was to hold everybody’s jobs for them or was there only certain jobs.
HR: I suppose. I suppose it was actually.
CB: What about people in other lines of work? Were they, did their employers keep their jobs for them?
HR: Oh I don’t know, that I can’t, that I can’t. I wouldn’t like to say.
CB: And are you in contact with any other people that you served with?
HR: No.
CB: Or part of any of the RAF Associations?
HR: No. Funnily enough after, well at the Spire when they had that function on the, in January that Marion was talking about I met somebody from [pause] I think it was somewhere sort of Northampton or somewhere like that. He had something to do with a group of people called — I can’t think what they called them now. I’ve got a letter from them. They want me to go and join them at some function [pause] I think its October.
[recording paused]
CB: So, is there anything else can you think of that you would like to talk about?
HR: I don’t think so. I think you’ve got a — we seemed to have spent quite a long time and I think you’ve got something to write about even if it’s, doesn’t get to the top of the class. It’ll be something to include in your list.
CB: Well, thank you very much for your time Harry. It’s been an absolute pleasure to meet with you and it’s been very very interesting. Your memories. And in particular because they are slightly different from other interviews and oral histories that have been collected because your role was a specialised role. And in that way was slightly different from others that we have interviewed. So thank you ever so much for your time.
HR: It’s been a pleasure.
CB: You’re welcome.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harold James Richards
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cathy Brearley
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ARichardsHJ180219, PRichardsHJ1807
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:00:49 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Norway
Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe--Bulawayo
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Richards from Lincoln was working in the health industry before he volunteered for the RAF. After trying to be a pilot he trained as an observer. He was posted to 297 Squadron at Stoney Cross where he and his crew dropped supplies to the Special Operations Executive and Resistance in occupied France and Norway. They then took part in glider towing during D-Day, Arnhem and the crossing of the Rhine. Harold flew in a number of different aircraft including Albemarle, Halifax, Wellington, Stirling, Whitley, Anson and Oxford. After operations one of his pilots used to compare bullet holes in the aircraft with his pilot friend as a competition.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
297 Squadron
aircrew
Albemarle
Anson
coping mechanism
Halifax
Hamilcar
Horsa
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
observer
Oxford
RAF Stoney Cross
rivalry
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training
Wellington
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1429/44268/BSaundersCFSaundersCFv1.2.pdf
abcd0d454698064eb5b2f9951f6d5635
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saunders, Charles Francis
C F Saunders
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-15
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Saunders, CF
Description
An account of the resource
One item. The collection concerns Charles Francis Saunders (Royal Air Force) and contains a memoir. He flew operations as an air gunner with 102 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Karen Rudderham and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memories of an Airman
Description
An account of the resource
An account by Charles Saunders of his service in the RAF during the war. He served as a mid upper gunner flying in the Halifax with No 102 Squadron at RAF Pocklington and carried out 18 operations. VE day ended his flying career and he was retrained as a radiographer and worked in that trade until he was demobilised. His account gives many details of his training including dinghy drill and parachute training.
Creator
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Charles Francis Saunders
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-01
2005-07
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Shropshire
England--Herefordshire
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Scotland--Moray
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Staffordshire
England--Cheshire
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Format
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98 page document
Identifier
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BSaundersCFSaundersCFv1
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Pending text-based transcription
102 Squadron
1652 HCU
19 OTU
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
air sea rescue
aircrew
Anson
Cook’s tour
crewing up
demobilisation
ditching
Dominie
ground personnel
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hurricane
Ju 88
Magister
military living conditions
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Proctor
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Burtonwood
RAF Halton
RAF Hednesford
RAF Kinloss
RAF Madley
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Pembrey
RAF Pocklington
recruitment
Spitfire
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/128/1278/AAbbottsC151015.2.mp3
cc3222384b5959170d324f9b72e8d83f
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Title
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Abbotts, Cyril
C Abbotts
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. The collection consists of one oral history interview and one service and release book related to Warrant Officer Cyril Abbots (b. 1924, 1583753 Royal Air Force). Cyril Abbotts volunteered for the Royal Air Force and trained as a pilot in Canada. On his return to Great Britain he flew operations as a flight engineer with 57 Squadron from RAF East Kirkby in 1945 and later converted from Lancasters to Lincolns. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Cyril Abbot and catalogued by IBCC staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2015-10-15
Identifier
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Abbots, C
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: So today I’m with Cyril Abbott and we are at Malvern in Worcestershire and it is the 15th of October 2015 and we’re just going to talk about his time in the RAF. Cyril, could you start off by talking please about your, family early, your earliest times you recollect?
CA: I was born in 1924 in a place called Princes’ End, Tipton. I lived with father and mother, with my grandparents. My mother was one of a large family, unfortunately she died when I was six and for the next two years we were looked after by my Grandma until Dad remarried. My mother and father were, had a house built in a village Coseley, which was about two miles away but we never moved there because of my Mum’s death. But having remarried we moved as a family, mother, or I should say step-mother, and father and my sister Doris who was four years older than myself. And we moved to a house in Bradleys Lane Coseley. I went to junior schools in Princes End, Tipton and at the age of eleven I passed scholarship and entered Dudley Grammar School where I was educated for the next five, six years. I left school in ‘39 and went out to work with W and T Avery at Smethwick as a engineering apprentice. I didn’t like work so at the first opportunity I volunteered for the Air Force, for aircrew, and having had all the two days of tests at Digbeth, Birmingham, I was accepted as a recruit and sent home and told to wait until I heard from the RAF. I was a bit of a nuisance to my father and mother because every day I used to come home from work and say ‘Has the letter arrived?’ and nothing had appeared and I really caused a bit of grief. But eventually the letter arrived ordering me to report to ACRC at Lords’ Cricket Ground, London. I travelled to, down to London with a fellow from the village who was also joining up, I think it was the first time we’d ever been away from home by ourselves in the whole of our lives but we arrived at Lords’ and the cricket ground was full of recruits, you couldn’t see a blade of grass basically. But they formed us up in groups of about forty and marched us off to Seymour Hall baths where they told us to strip off and swim a hundred yards. This rather shook us I believe ‘cause having to swim without a costume, but we did this and those who could swim the hundred yards were pushed to one side of the bath, and those who couldn’t swim went to the other side. We found out later that the non-swimmers were sent off to RAF Cosford to learn to swim, if I’d have known that I would have done the same [laughs] because Cosford was within about twenty miles of home. But still, we, we were billeted in flats around St John’s Wood, waiting for postings to ITW. Eventually I was posted to 8 Wing ITW at Newquay, Cornwall where I spent the next three to four months school work. In actual fact I can remember the flight commander was a Flight Lieutenant Paine, he was an ex solicitor and the Squadron Leader I think was a man named Fabian, who was a English international footballer amateur. But, and the two PTIs was Corporal White and Corporal Beasley, one was a Londoner, a real Cockney, and they used to take us out on cross country runs. Because one day I, I decided I didn’t want to go, so we had to get changed and set off and I drifted to the back and at the nearest public toilets I disappeared into it, little realising that Corporal White was running right at the back and he caught me [laughs] and I was taken in front of the squadron commander and given three days CB, confined to barracks, but at the end of the, I think it was about twelve weeks of school work were finished and we were waiting then to, for postings and I eventually was posted to RAF Sywell for familiarisation, twelve hours in a Tiger Moth. Again, I remember the instructor was a Flight Lieutenant Bush, I think he could have owned the flying school which had been taken over by the RAF, but we did, we did about ten to twelve hours flying around in Tiger Moths to see if whether we were compatible with flying and then at the end we were posted to Heaton Park, Manchester which was a receiving centre for people waiting basically to go overseas. I mean there were literally hundreds of UT aircrew there and we used to have to attend in the morning when they would read out lists of people with the postings and you had to answer in a certain manner to signify that you’d understood the shouted instructions. Initially I’d received a posting to South Africa, Rhodesia for flying training and we went up to Blackpool to receive the inoculations required, and having received these inoculations we were sent back to Heaton Park where we found out that we weren’t going to South Africa after all. I was sent to Canada and we, we sailed from the River Clyde, Greenock, or something similar on the Queen Elizabeth, the original Queen Elizabeth one, and I think it was about three days and four nights journey which I didn’t like, I don’t, I’m not a, I don’t like sailing, I don’t like water and it was a welcome sight to go through the harbour bar at New York to get inside the docks because as we went through the bar and they closed it the ship lit up because we’d sailed in darkness over, through the Atlantic, and as soon as we entered the, the New York dock area all the lights came on the ship. I mean New York was lit up as you see it on the films, I mean we hadn’t seen lights for three years. Eventually we, we docked in Pier 91 next to the burnt-out Normandy which had been, it had gone on fire and had capsized in the dock next to us, and it was still there. But eventually we were taken off the boat and we went under the river to New Jersey to get a train to go up to Monkton, RAF Monkton in Canada. We had to pass through the customs between America and Canada, and we stopped on the American side and one or two of us shot off because we were near to a small town and got a glass of beer, and we’d got to drink this very quickly and we didn’t realise the American beer was practically frosty, it was very, very cold. But we, eventually we arrived in Monkton, and we were there for maybe a week or so before we were sent west to the flying schools and I finished up at 32 EFTS, RAF Bowden in Alberta, I mean we could see the Rockies on the horizon, as we drove from the station, Innisfail was the station, why I know that is because I was reading a book by an ex Worcestershire cricketer, Cheston, who had trained there as well, and I picked up the name Innisfail I’d forgotten, but as we drove up from the station to the aerodrome all the training planes were lined up with their tails towards us and we all thought God, we’re all going to be fighter pilots, they looked like fighter ‘planes ‘cause they were all Fairchild Cornell which was a low wing plane. We were there for a period of time, I think we got in about seventy or eighty hours, and I soloed quite quickly after about five hours and during the training I realised that I would never become a fighter pilot because I didn’t like aerobatics. I always remember being sent up to practice spins and to do this you climbed to about three or four thousand feet and then spun down, and pulled out and climbed back and did it again. But every time I went to do it I’d get practically to the point of stall, at which point I was supposed to kick in rudder to go right or left and my nerve went so I pushed the nose down and climbed another thousand feet until I finished up at about ten thousand feet before I forced myself to spin. But having done it the first time and realised I could get out of trouble it wasn’t so bad, but aerobatics I just did not like. So I made my mind up then that I would never become a fighter pilot, I’d go for twins or multi engines. Having completed the elementary training we were posted to service flying training and I was posted to a place called RAF Estevan in Saskatchewan it was right on the American border just a few miles on the Canadian side but it was more or less in the middle of the dustpan, everything was covered with dust, there was a wind at all times and it was just blowing this dust and coating everything. The dormitories had got double-glazing with a mesh screen to try to keep this dust out, but they were flying Ansons there for training and we had to have a check to see whether our leg length was sufficient to be able to apply full rudder in the event of an engine failure. Well I didn’t like the station I thought I’m going to do my best to get away from here, so when I came to do my test I put, extending my to get full rudder and I gradually slipped down in the pilots’ seat so that I couldn’t see over the top of the board, dashboard, so that I failed the test. I didn’t realise that I could have been washed out of pilot training but I was posted away from Estevan to RAF Moose Jaw at Saskatchewan to fly Tiger Moths. The Anson hadn’t got a moveable rudder pedal whereas the Oxford had, you could wind them in to suit your leg length. The Oxford had got a bad reputation for killing people. It was a very difficult aeroplane to fly and they said that if you could fly an Oxford you could fly anything. And I took to the Oxford, I soloed after about five hours again and from then on it was just train, train, train until we eventually finished, I think we did something like about a hundred and fifty hours flying, and it came, the wings, the graduation ceremony, and I believe we were presented with our wings by Air Vice-Marshal Billy Bishop who was a Canadian fighter pilot in the First World War. I believe that it was him but we had already sewn wings on our uniforms and stripes on our arms if we were becoming sergeants, but we had to parade without, without wings or stripes on. But then having graduated, we had, we were given a posting back to Halifax, to get the boat back to England. We were allowed, I think, forty eight hours to have a leave in either Quebec or Montreal on the way back. I can’t remember now whether we were in Quebec or Montreal, but we eventually got back to Halifax and boarded the French liner, Louis Pasteur, to come back and it was a terrible journey. Since we were now supposed sergeants capable of looking after ourselves on the ship some of us were posted as assistant gunners on the anti-aircraft guns which were put about ten feet above the boat deck on a little platform with a rail around it to stop you falling off. And we had an Oerlikon cannon to look after. I mean we’d never seen a firearm but we’d got a naval man as the gunner and we were just there to help, But we always said the Louis Pasteur was a flat bottomed boat because it rolled and rocked like nobody’s business and there were literally thousands on the boat, the conditions were terrible, but every morning at about twelve o’clock if I remember rightly, we had a rendezvous with a Coastal Command aircraft so that when it came time we had to close up the guns in case it wasn’t an RAF plane, but bang on the dot it would appear out of the clouds, circle round for about half an hour, and then off it would go and we’d plough on. I mean we were not escorted it was just a, a quick dash across and I must admit I saw more U boats in the sea, that on that journey, than the German’s had got, every wave was a U boat. [laugh] But eventually we arrived at Liverpool, and we disembarked and were shipped to RAF Harrogate, the Majestic Hotel we were billeted in, and there were literally thousands of pilots, bomb aimers and navigators there. We just, we just didn’t know what was going to happen to us. I mean they came round I think twice, once asking for volunteers to change to glider pilot training. I mean those that did, that accepted it, I think most probably went in at Arnhem. But I being frightened, I decided I would stay and get an aeroplane with engines. So I was there for quite some time and eventually I was sent, we had um, because we’d been in Canada, living the life of luxury, they sent us up to Whitley Bay, Newcastle under the Army to have a month toughening up, and everything was done at the double. I was given a rifle and a band to cover my sergeant’s stripes, we used to have to wear these because the instructors were corporals and privates of the commandos and they gave us a real tough time. Route marches of about twelve miles, my feet were sore, but that was completed and we came back to Harrogate. They just didn’t know what to do with us. So we, eventually I ended up at RAF Bridgenorth, under canvas, and we always said we were draining an air commodore’s farm because we were digging ditches all the time and there were, there were Australians, and other Commonwealth aircrew with us and they used to, to show how tough they were, they’d sleep out in the open without a tent, until they got wet once or twice, [laugh] but we were there most probably two or three weeks and back again to Harrogate. And then I went on airfield control at RAF Gamston, just outside Worksop, acting as traffic control watching the Wellingtons, it was an OTU unit, and we were there [indistinct] at night on flare path duty and the control hut flashing greens or reds as required with an Aldis lamp. While I was there, I became friends with one or two of the screened pilots so I managed to get a few hours in on a Wellington. At the end of the, at the end of the time Gamston was closed down and the ‘planes moved to other OTUs so I got a few hours flying with the screen people taking these aeroplanes to the stations. The funniest part was we landed at one, we had a plane which went round all the aerodromes picking up the screened crews to take them back to Gamston, a Wellington, and it was very funny we landed one control, or pulled up at the control tower and shut the engines down waiting for the people to be picked up and out trooped from the Wellington, about eighteen people and the control officer’s jaw dropped when he saw all these people coming out [laugh] but it was quite, we stood, down the Wellington hanging onto the geo, geodetic structure, it was quite funny. From Gamston, I eventually was posted, oh yeah, I think I went back to Harrogate again and there I was volunteered to do an engineers’ course at St Athan down in South Wales. There was no chance of becoming an official pilot because they hadn’t got enough aeroplanes and there was too many people. So we were volunteered to do an engineers’ course at St Athan on the Lancaster systems, which we did about six weeks just to get the fundamentals of the system. And having completed that I was posted to sixteen 54 HCU at RAF Wigsley in Lincolnshire, where I was going to get crewed up with an ex OTU pilot and crew who wanted an Engineer, so we walked in, as engineers we walked into an office where there were pilots sitting around and the first person I saw was a man who’d been on the course immediately in front of me at Moose Jaw, a flying officer, he was a Pilot Officer Coates and we made contact and starting talking, he said ‘Well I’m looking for an engineer’ I said, ‘Well I’m an engineer but I’m also a pilot’ he said ‘Do you want to come and fly with me?’ ‘Yep’, and that’s how I joined Pilot Officer Coates’ crew because we knew each other. We completed a number of hours on the, at the heavy con unit, the conversion unit, and we were posted as a crew to 57 Squadron at East Kirkby.
CB: So when was this exactly?
CA: Well I think it was in either February ’45, because I wasn’t on the squadron long enough to be able to be awarded the Bomber Command Clasp which I thought was a bit em, bit naughty of them, I can come to that later. Well we were introduced to Wing Commander Tomes who was the Squadron Commander and I think Squadron Leader Astall although I’m not sure about that name. And we were more or less sent off to go and do some practice flying which we thought we’d done enough with the heavy con unit but it wasn’t good enough for the squadron. So we did quite a few cross countries and bombing practice at Wainfleet. And one day I was, I think most likely the last one in the engineer’s office and I was about to go for tea, and as I was walking out the engineer officer shouts, ‘Cyril, what are you doing tonight?’ I said ‘I’m going to have a beer why?’ he said ‘No you’re not, you’re flying.’ He said so and so has called in, his engineer’s gone sick, so they want an engineer so you’re flying as a spare bod on Flying Officer Jack Curran, who was an Australian pilot, he was short of an engineer so I was going with him and that night we went to Luetzkendorf which was the first operation, our rear gunner had also been made a spare bod and he went as a rear gunner with another crew. But Jack, Jack Curran had been shot down about two months previously and had got back so he was, he was a bit nervous as a pilot, he gave me a bit of jitters, because once we crossed, if I remember rightly, once we crossed over the Channel and got to the other side he proceeded to weave all the time and it made a heck of a mess of my petrol consumptions. But the thing that I always remember, was having got to the target, was the different colours or shades of red that there are, or were, I’d never seen so many different shades. Of course I mean I didn’t realise what was happening I mean I was, I’d got bags and bags of window which I was pushing [unclear] down the chute like nobody’s business thinking they were saving me but they weren’t they were saving the people coming behind me. But I pushed packets of it down, I even jammed the ‘chute once I had to get a big file from out of my kit, my tool kit and try and clear it and the file went down the ‘chute as well so that if that hit anybody downstairs they would have had a headache. But eventually we got, we came back and as we neared East Kirkby, Jack had called in to ask for landing instructions and we were told to vamoose, scatter, it was either an intruder in the circuit or something but we scattered like nobody’s business heading towards Wales, and on the way, we were told to make for RAF Bruntingthorpe which we eventually reached and Jack landed the Lanc’ alright, we parked it and were taken into a room for a bit of a debrief, given something to eat and then we were taken to beds in the dorms, in the Nissen huts. And I was, I was lying there on the bed, I couldn’t get to sleep, I suppose it was the adrenalin still coursing through the veins, but I was smoking away like nobody’s business, and I woke up the man in the bed next to where I was and he sat up and he saw I was a flight sergeant, he saw my tunic on the bed, so he said ‘What’s happened?’ so I just explained that we’d been diverted there and we were talking, he was a corporal engine fitter and he looked at me and I looked at him quite intently as if we knew each other. So eventually one or other said ‘Were you ever in Canada?’ and I said ‘Yes, you were at Moose Jaw, were you at Moose Jaw?’ ‘Yes’, he’d been an Engine Fitter out on the flights at Moose Jaw and had been posted back to, from Canada and he was working, was working at Bruntingthorpe on the Wellingtons. Well eventually we were given the all clear to go back to East Kirkby and, although it was forbidden, the squadron pilots always shot up the aerodrome having taken off. So we, we took off and joined a queue of people waiting to go down the runway and ignored it which we did. The station commander went mad and by the time we got back to East Kirkby the squadron commander was waiting for us and he proceeded to tear us off a strip. ‘They were OTU pilots being taught to fly safely and you people go down and show them what not to do’ [laugh] still it was Lancaster below zero feet going at about two hundred miles an hour is something, it’s really exhilarating, but still. Um, oh yeah, a few days later we went to Pilsen as a crew, Fred Coates the pilot and the rest of the crew, I mean he’d already done two spare bods as a pilot getting the idea of what happened, and Johnny the rear gunner had been, but the, I’d been but the others hadn’t so it was all new to them, but us old hands [laugh]. Well we went to Pilsen and our navigator was a graduate and he was a very meticulous navigator, very good, but very meticulous. I mean when we were flying you’d hear his voice come over the, the intercom, ‘What speed are we supposed to be flying at?’ ‘About two hundred and twenty, why?’ he said ‘I want two hundred and twenty five, nothing else, two twenty five is the airspeed.’ So I spent minutes trying to get the, the right speed. And he’d come through, ‘What course are you steering?’ ‘Why?’ He said ‘You’re two degrees out’, oh he was a, he was a menace [laugh]. But on the way, it’s only in latter life that I’ve realised this, but it was his first trip, it was most of us second or third and he was navigating and he said ‘We’re too early, we’re going to get to target too early’ so Fred said ‘Well what do you want to do?’ So Marsh says ‘We’ll do a dog leg, turn, and he gave us a course to turn to the left, to port, and flew out for a few minutes and then to come back into the, into the stream and go, head toward the target again, we’d lose the required minutes. And like fools Fred and I did this, but during the flight we were getting, we were getting, bumped about a bit and we couldn’t understand this because there was no flak to blow us around but we’d get jumped up and down, it would last a minute and then die down and then about a few minutes later again. We couldn’t fathom out what it was, but it’s only in latter life that I’ve realised what it was, because we got to Pilsen and back okay, and then we were put on a daylight to go to Flensburg, and I mean the RAF didn’t flew, didn’t fly in formation, they just got into a gaggle and went. So we joined the bunch and the idea was to get into the middle of the stream, so you kept lifting yourself up a bit, move over and then gradually drop down and force the man underneath to move out of the way so that you were doing this all the time. And occasionally we’d get this bump and it’s only as I say in latter life that I realised that at night when we got these bumps it was the slipstream of planes in front of us, that I never, I never saw a plane during flying at night but we must have been very, very close because it showed up during this daylight. But we went to Flensburg and it was aborted we couldn’t bomb, why we were never told but I did see a Messerschmitt 262 I think was the jet fighter, something came, went through the formation like nobody’s business but we’d got Mustang fighter escort they were most probably about ten thousand feet above us, but we did see them come down and go through the formation, on the way down to the deck whether they’d, they went down to er, hit some of these two five twos taking off, two six twos, but that was quite a sight to see these little, little bits going through the, through the formation. But my war ended with that aborted raid on Flensburg. We were thinking we should be going to Berchtesgaden but all the, the higher ups of the squadron did that, they didn’t let the lower lads do it. Then after the , after the war I flew on Lincolns, 57 Squadron were given three Lincolns initially to carry out service trials on them and by this time our pilot, Fred Coates, had departed. He’d been a police constable before the war and since they wanted the police in peace time to build up again they got Class B releases, or they were allowed to take Class B release. So Fred had just married his Canadian girlfriend who’d come over here to marry and 57 Squadron was one of the squadrons that were going out on Tiger Force to the Far East but Fred said no he wasn’t going to go, he’d get his Class B which he did. And we had another pilot, a Flight Lieutenant Strickland, who was posted into us to take over the crew. He came up I think from Mildenhall, I can’t remember which group they were, but he’d been an instructor in Canada for a number of years and he was very meticulous with his flying, everything was perfect and he kept the rest of us on top line. We flew the Lincolns, we’d got three and I think Mildenhall station they’d got three, we had lots of trouble with engine failures where as Mildenhall had airframe failures, rivets popping and things like that so it was quite, it was quite stressful flying these Lincolns. I’ve got a write up.
CB: We’ll stop there just for a moment.
CA: Yeah, I’ve got a write up actually,
CB: So we’ve stopped for a comfort break, and you were talking about Lincolns, you took on Lincolns?
CA: Oh yeah.
CB: You took on Lincolns. What happened then?
CA: Well, with the Lincolns, we as I say we’d got three and I since found that there was a Flight Lieutenant, Flight Lieutenant Jones who was one of the leading lights in the flight, I can’t recall him really, but erm.
CB: This is still war time before the Japanese surrender isn’t it?
CA: It was, yeah, but it was after the European war –
CB: Yep.
CA: And it was in the time between May and August -
CB: Right.
’45. The Lincoln was, was being produced to go overseas with the Tiger Force because the Lanc’ hadn’t got the range that was required and the Lincoln was supposed to have. But it wasn’t, in our eyes, it wasn’t as good as the Lancaster, I mean we were in love with the Lanc’ whereas the Lincoln was, was something different. I fully remember on one flight, I was sitting down on the right hand side and Pete was flying and I looked out of the starboard side and looked at the wing and I could see the skin rippling and I nearly collapsed with fear because I could see the wing moving up and down, and when it lifted up, so it rippled the skin at the join between the mid-section and the wing section, and for the rest of the flight my eyes never left that section [laugh] that part, but I found out when we got down that the wings moved five feet between the bottom and top and this was due to the weight of them and the, the fuel. And it was only after then that I noticed that when the Lincoln sat on the ground the wings appeared to be drooped and they moved up during the take off period to obtain the flying attitude. But it was a frightening sight I will admit.
CB: So it was a bigger aeroplane?
CA: It was a bigger aeroplane, it was heavier, I don’t know about the bomb load. I don’t think it was any different.
CB: But they were bigger engines and could fly higher and the span was a hundred and twenty four feet?
CA: A hundred and twenty.
CB: Hundred and twenty.
CA: About a hundred and twenty feet, yeah.
CB: Now when did you get promoted to warrant officer?
CA: Two years after I graduated. You were made, when you got your wings, you were a sergeant for about nine to twelve months and then flight sergeant for a year and then you became warrant officer. I mean a lot of the ground crew, senior NCO’s didn’t like this, I mean there were us youngsters who were up to sergeants after about eighteen months and they’d been in the Air Force for years and had just made corporal. So there was a bit of resentment between the ground crew NCO’s and the aircrews. But of course I mean we were only as aircrew given stripes, or officers in case you were ever shot down and taken prisoner, you got better treatment as a NCO, but that was the only reason.
CB: OK, so fast forward again to the Lincolns, your time in the RAF finished when, 1946?
CA: 1946 November.
CB: Right, so what did you do?
CA: What did I do afterwards?
CB: After the war, after the war finished?
CA: Well, I came back and as I said previously, I’d been an apprentice with Avery’s, and my apprenticeship had been cancelled when I joined up. So I went back to Avery’s and recommenced my apprenticeship but due to my service, instead of having to do a further length of time, because I was apprenticed for about five years and I had only done about twelve months, they reduced the remaining time by about twelve months and they concluded my apprenticeship about twelve months, having served and I’d done a four year apprenticeship instead of five, and that would have been somewhere around about 1947, ‘48 when I, they transferred me into the drawing office at Avery’s and I became a draughtsman.
CB: How long did you work as a draughtsman?
CA: Well I left Avery’s in 1951 and I was employed by the Cannon Iron Foundries for a year and then I, I went to Thompson Brothers in Bilsden for about three years and finally finished at ICI Marston Excelsior in ’56.
CB: What did you do there?
CA: I was a design draughtsman there and I, I did design, design work on, I always remember my first job was designing a heat exchanger for the Folland Gnat , just a small one, I can’t remember what it was for, I believe it was for the pilot cooling system to keep him cool. But this was on heat exchange. I finished up actually on heavy fabrication work, in aluminium work, and I became a section leader. I did various jobs, I engineered a liquid ethylene storage plant for ICI organic, organic section I think, or one of the sections at Billingham where we stored surplus liquid ethylene. And we stored it in a big container like a gasometer and I, I was given a piece of ground on the side of the river and put a storage plant there. I must admit that my initial estimate of costs was way down, [laugh] I made a hell of a bloomer, I think I estimated about a hundred and fifty thousand and it finished up at about, eight hundred thousand [laugh] we had quite a, an argument, not argument, discussion why [laugh]. But then I went onto production, onto the production side of the factory, as chief planning officer on fabrications which I, I did until the work started to peter out so I went onto development work on cold rolling of noble alloys for jet engines.
CB: This is all for ICI?
CA: All, yes, it’s all under ICI’s name, we bought in a cold rolling machine from Holland and we used to roll to very, very close tolerances. Rolls Royce were trying to reduce their costs by getting in components where they didn’t really have to do any work on, and I mean the jet engines required diameters to a thou’ in tolerance and we were supposed to try to do this by rolling them, which we did eventually, I mean we bought this machine. I went out to G, GE the American counterpart of Rolls Royce. GEC?
CB: GE yeah, General Electric.
CA: And I spent a fortnight out there getting some idea of how they tackled it but I mean they’d got a different idea I mean where here we had to justify spending sixpence, there the engineer, development engineer said ‘I want a machine it costs two hundred thousand pounds’ and he was given the money and they got the machine. Whereas we were trying to do it on one machine they’d got a battery of them, about ten. I mean this is the reason why they are the world beaters. Money is no object.
CB: When did you finally retire?
CA: I retired in March ’86 having completed thirty years.
CB: OK, thank you, I’ll stop there. So we’re restarting, we’re restarting just on a flashback. So you’re back from Canada as a qualified pilot.
CA: Yeah. I should have said then that I went up to, we were asked where we wanted postings to go to for flying. I never realised that there was a flying school at Wolverhampton otherwise I would have asked, instead I got posted up to RAF Carlisle on Tiger Moths where we did about a month flying a Tiger Moth around getting used to flying in English conditions. We used to take a navigator or a bomb aimer as a passenger for them to practice map reading while we flew it. We did a lot of flying around the Lake District, we were flying over Maryport and Workington I think is the other port, on the coast there. And we, we used to go down and count the number of ships that were in the harbour and things like this, and then having to fly back over the Lake District which was very, which could be quite treacherous with the down draughts and the winds whistling over the hills. It used to bounce the Tiger Moths around like nobody’s business. But we did that for about a month and then we were posted again hoping we were going to get posted to OTUs but it never, never, I was, you asked how I felt. I felt disappointed having made my mind up I was never going to fly single engine fighters I put down for twin engines or multis. The onus was on providing crews for four engine planes. So to get there I’d got to go to an OTU and that was never going to happen. So when I was posted to the engineers’ course I accepted it and it, I was still flying, that was what I wanted to do, I wanted to fly. So that, I made the best of a bad job. I thoroughly enjoyed it I mean, I enjoyed the, being on a squadron, being a crew, being a member of a crew and we’d got a good crew. I mean our mid upper gunner was the only one who could shoot through the aerial leading to the rudders which he did time and time again, it used to cost him half a crown a time when he pierced them, I mean this was when we were doing air to air gunnery and he was firing at a drogue and he’d traverse and ‘ping’ and Andy the wireless operator would say ‘You’ve done it again’ [laugh], but um.
CB: So, how long did you keep your pilots brevet?
CA: All the time.
CB: Oh did you, throughout the war?
CA: Yes, yes we were never forced to change them. That is why I always say I was a PFE rather than a flight engineer, I was a pilot flight engineer. And the pilots that I flew with gave me the opportunity to fly, to pilot. I mean Peter who was the ex-instructor, he was always within reach of pulling me out of the seat if necessary, but Fred he used to go and wander down to the Elsan at the back and leave me in charge. I mean I was playing about one day above the clouds and I was following the, the shape of the clouds up and down and Johnny who was sitting with his turret doors open, fore and aft, and it, it started to get a bit robust, the movement of the up and down movement and the Elsan lid which was tied down with a bungee rubber broke and the contents of the Elsan came up, [laugh], oh dear, and it covered him [laugh], he didn’t speak to me for days [laugh] because he knew it was me and not Fred [laugh].
CB: How did the crew get on together socially?
CA: Very good, very good we never went anywhere unless we went as a six. I mean, we bought our beer in the mess, we bought it by the bucket and helped ourselves with dipping the glass into the bucket rather than separate. No, it was a very good crew, very good.
CB: So in those days you could buy beer in a bucket could you?
CA: In the mess.
CB: In the mess, right.
CA: In the mess yeah.
CB: OK, and as a crew you worked well together?
CA: Oh yes, yes.
CB: And er.
CA: Well Marsh, he was working, he wanted to get onto pathfinders.
CB: Marsh being?
CA: The navigator. He was a very good navigator but, Mac, the bomb aimer, he was more of, an easy come, easy go.
CB: So.
CA: That second or the first raid as a crew to Pilsen we went through the target twice because Mac he wouldn’t drop because he couldn’t line it up properly so he said ‘I’ll send you round again’ and the rest of us shouted ‘What the hell, will you pull them’ and Fred said ‘If you don’t I shall jettison’. So he says ‘Go round again!’ So we had to make our way round and come back and get it back in the stream and fly it through but on the second time he let them go.
CB: This is a daylight raid?
CA: No, this was a night raid —
CB: This was in the night. So the reason I said that is because that sounds a particularly dangerous thing to do when you can’t see anything —
CA: It was a, well this is it, I mean what with trying to get in, slip into the stream, I mean you, I never saw another Lancaster in the stream. And I mean we went through the target we were only given somewhere maybe half an hour from the start to the end of the squadron’s time over the target so I mean God knows how close we were, but we were very close when we were getting buffeted by slipstream. But I mean a, when Marsh sent us on a dog leg when we turned out of the stream and then had to come back and join it again. We didn’t realise the stupidity of it, but Marsh being Marsh he’d got to have it down on his chart.
CB: Why would it have mattered if you had arrived early?
CA: Well a, the target may not have been indicated, or they were down below marking it, so you, I mean er.
CB: You could have bombed your own people —
CA: You could have bombed them, yeah —
CB: Right OK.
CA: And since the Lancaster was always the top flight, I mean it was Lancasters, Halifaxes, Stirlings.
CB: Right, there’s a ranking.
CA: So.
CB: And how did the crew feel, and you feel, about what you were doing as bombers?
CA: I don’t think we thought about it.
CB: OK.
CA: I don’t think we thought about it. I mean the first one — we had been bombed at home in 1940. We’d had a landmine dropped within about a hundred yards of home and our house is most probably still standing with the back, back wall bulged where the roof lifted and the walls started to move and it dropped down and it held. So I wanted to do something back but having that I don’t think you, we never talked about whether there was a right or wrong, it was a job.
CB: My wife was born in a bombing raid in Birmingham.
CA: Eh hum.
CB: What about LMF, did you know anything about that, or experience.
CA: We knew of it.
CB: Yes.
CA: We knew of it but we never met anyone who was accused of it or anything like that. But we didn’t like the idea because it wasn’t nice when you were over there. A funny tale, we had a man on the squadron, he was a dark, a Negro, and he was as black as the ace of spades, colour. And he’d got perfectly white teeth and he was known as twenty three fifty nine, that was his nickname, because twenty three fifty nine is the darkest part of the night, or supposed to be, a minute before midnight. And he was a rear gunner and when he was in his turret at night and you walked past it all you could see was these white teeth. It was really funny, but he was a good lad.
CB: What about other aspects of the work? When you boarded the aircraft what did you have with you to eat or drink?
CA: I think the only thing I can remember is boiled sweets. I mean I can’t ever remember fruit, or anything like that. I don’t think we ever took, I never took a drink at all. I mean I can tell the tale where, I mean, we used, sometimes to remember to take a bottle to use and one day Fred had forgotten his, the pilot, and he was in, he was in dire trouble. So he said ‘I’ve got to have something, I’ve got to have something’ so I was scooting round trying to, what the hell can he have? And I went and took the cover off the G George instrument, gyro, which was a pan of about eight or nine inch diameter and about three or four inches deep held on with four screws. So I took this off and gave him this to use, which he used. So he used it and said ‘Here get rid of it’ so I said ‘How?’ he says ‘Throw it out the window’ so I pulled my sliding window back —
CB: [laugh] —
CA: and threw it out, threw the contents. Of course, I mean as soon as the contents went out the slipstream took it all the way down the canopy, the Perspex, and we, I couldn’t see out of that side all the way back, and I also lost the G cover [laugh] which cost me five shillings and a telling off from the engineer officer. How, why was the G cover uncovered. ‘I can’t remember’ [laugh].
CB: Now what about the ground crew because you relied on them so, what was the relationship with them?
CA: Very good, other than the first time I went, we joined the squadron, and I don’t know whether I ought to say this, can I, can I not get up?
CB: Um.
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Interview with Cyril Abbotts
Description
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Cyril Abbotts volunteered for the Royal Air Force while he was an engineering apprentice with W T Avery at Smethwick. After his reception at Lord’s Cricket Ground and initial training,he trained as a pilot at RAF Bowden and Moose Jaw in Canada. On his return to Great Britain, he spent some time in holding units, before being posted to retrain as a flight engineer at RAF St Athan. He flew operations with 57 Squadron from RAF East Kirkby in 1945 and later converted from Lancasters to Lincolns. Post-war he completed his apprenticeship, becoming a draughtsman for various companies including ICI. He retired after 30 years of service with them.
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Chris Brockbank
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2015-10-15
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Dawn Studd
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01:18:53 audio recording
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eng
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AAbbottsC151015
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Canada
Saskatchewan--Moose Jaw
England--London
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Great Britain
Germany
Wales
Saskatchewan
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
1654 HCU
57 Squadron
African heritage
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
bombing
Cornell
crewing up
demobilisation
fear
flight engineer
Flying Training School
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lincoln
Me 262
military discipline
military living conditions
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
P-51
physical training
pilot
promotion
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Carlisle
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Gamston
RAF Heaton Park
RAF St Athan
RAF Sywell
RAF Wigsley
RCAF Bowden
RCAF Estevan
recruitment
sanitation
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/250/3398/PEllisMW1701.1.jpg
fe0a9e98f23972969b5aa03159b3c69e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/250/3398/AEllisMW170703.1.mp3
9a9db74325a0256a11c8b95b9a2f864e
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Title
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Ellis, Mary Wilkins
Mary Wilkins Ellis
Mary W Ellis
Mary Ellis
M W Ellis
M Ellis
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Mary Wilkins Ellis (1917 - 2018). Mary Ellis was an Air Transport Auxiliary pilot.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-07-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Ellis, MW
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 3rd of July 2017 and I’m in Sandown with Mary Wilkins Ellis who was a delivery pilot during the war and has a variety of tales associated with that. So, starting off then Mary what were your earliest recollections of life.
ME: Well I come from a farm in Oxfordshire. My father was a farmer and I had three brothers. And I can remember looking at aeroplanes when I was eight, six, eight and thinking how lovely. And then Alan Cobham came along with one of his circus planes to Witney Airfield which is in Oxfordshire. Which is quite close to Brize Norton actually. And so, I had the urge to be more interested in aeroplanes more and more. And then I went for a flight with Alan Cobham’s Circus and this set me off even more. And then I talked with my Pa who also liked flying and he thought it was a good idea that I was interested in flying. And when I was at school in Burford I wasn’t very good at playing hockey so, I was allowed that hockey time to go to Witney Airfield and have a flight and that’s how I started flying aeroplanes.
CB: What age are we talking about here?
ME: We’re talking about [pause] I suppose twelve when I started flying. Well, I don’t know but it was very early on.
CB: What was the reaction of the school to your giving up hockey and going to flying?
ME: Each one was allowed to do their own thing so it didn’t register that I was flying. Other girls were doing probably far more important things but we didn’t talk about it. We just went on with our lessons during the other time.
CB: What did the other girls think about your flying? What did the other girls think about your flying?
ME: We didn’t talk about it. So I don’t know.
CB: No. Interesting. Yeah.
ME: But I learned to fly at Witney and, as I’ve just said and I was flying and I got my licence just in 1938. And then the war came and so all civil flying was stopped and I thought that’s the end of my flying life. So, I went home and I was at home doing precious little [laughs] as girls do, you know. Play tennis and all that sort of thing. And then one day I heard on the radio that girls who had licence, flight licence and were able to fly aeroplanes would they please contact the Air Transport Auxiliary because girls were badly needed to fly aeroplanes. So, I applied and I was taken on almost immediately. And I joined Air Transport Auxiliary on the 1st of October. Now, there’s another car coming. I think this is —
CB: We’ll stop there a mo.
[recording paused]
ME: To fly aeroplanes you have to be trained.
CB: Yes. So, when the radio announcement came looking for girls who had got flying experience then there was a process you went through. So you said you joined the 1st of October 1941. Then what happened?
ME: I went to Hatfield. And I was at Hatfield with three other girls who also joined at the same time and we had to — none of us had very much experience so we had to learn to be able to fly aeroplanes without any radio or any help whatsoever. And so, we were, each day we went off on cross country’s from Hatfield to learn the countryside as it was. You know. Woods here, rivers there, churches there. Something else. Like that. And then I was posted to, I was posted to cross country flight at White Waltham in December.
[pause]
CB: Yeah.
ME: And that was at White Waltham which was — White Waltham was the HQ. Did you know that?
CB: Of the ATA. Yes.
ME: And so there I had to go through all the procedures of finding out how an aeroplane works. How the undercarriages works. And what to do in emergencies. It went on and on and I had to learn about the weather conditions. Had to learn Morse code. And it really was fantastic — the amount of learning that one had to do before starting ferrying. And I was flying in the flying training. All the single aeroplanes and I was ferrying these around. And [pause] what happened next?
CB: So, at White Waltham they had a number of different aeroplanes to fly.
ME: Yes. They had a Harvard something or other. And I flew all these light aeroplanes including Hurricanes and I flew fifteen Hurricanes. And then one day I had a little chitty which said I must fly a Spitfire. Just like that. And I thought, ‘Oh my goodness. How can I do that?’ I haven’t been near one because they didn’t have any spare Spitfires at White Waltham for one to look at. And so, I was taken by taxi aircraft to Swindon. South Marston. And there —
CB: The factory.
ME: Yes. And there I — a Spitfire was, came out of the hangar and it was the one that was on my little chitty. So this, I had to fly this aeroplane. The first ferry Spitfire I’d ever flown. And in uniform, you know, when you’re very young one can look quite attractive [laughs] which is rather different today. And so, the hangar doors were opened and out came this Spitfire and I eventually climbed in. Someone put my parachute in because we always wore parachutes and then I got in myself and I thought, ‘Oh gracious me. How lovely.’ And then a chappy that was fastening my parachute and all the other things inside, he said, ‘How many of these have you flown? You look like a schoolgirl.’ And I said, ‘I haven’t flown one before. This is the very first one.’ And he simply could not believe it. And the people around, they were staggered to see this schoolgirl about to fly a Spitfire. However, I managed very well and I taxied out and took off and I got up in the air and I thought I must play with this aeroplane just a little to find out how it flies. What it can do. What I can do with it. And so I did. I flew around for quite some time and I was only going to Lyneham but it took me a long time because I was flying around in this beautiful Spitfire. I landed it at Lyneham. All was well. My taxi aeroplane was waiting for me so I got out of this Spitfire into the taxi aeroplane which took me straight back to Swindon for the second Spitfire in the same day. And they couldn’t believe it when I got there and they said, ‘Oh you’re back again.’ [laughs] I went through all this paraphernalia you do. As one does. At this time I had to do some cross country to fly to Little Rissington — which I did. And I was almost killed at that time because they were flying Oxfords and as I was going in to land I just landed and an Oxford came and landed just in front of me. I still have the letter of apology [laughs] It nearly killed me.
LS: That’s incredible.
ME: But I’m still here. So, that was the beginning of the Spitfire. As you know I flew four hundred and one Spitfires on ferry flights. So —
CB: Were they consecutive or they tended to be interspersed with others?
ME: Interspersed. I’ll show you if you want to know.
CB: Yes. I’d be interested.
ME: Are you a pilot?
CB: Yes.
[Pause. Packet rustling]
ME: These are very precious so I have to keep them.
CB: Of course.
ME: This is D-day. If you’d like to look at my book.
CB: Thank you. Just while I’m just looking at this, going back to your comment about going to South Marston, the factory, to pick up the Spitfire you then did a handling trial. How much would you throw the aeroplane around?
ME: For ten minutes I was, probably, yes, getting used to it. Marvellous.
CB: So you were doing aerobatics in it.
ME: No. We were told never to do aerobatics or fly at night.
CB: Steep turns. Were you, to what extent were you able to —
ME: Everything else.
CB: Yeah.
ME: Well you can see there were all sorts of different aeroplanes in the same day. I could fly a bomber or a Spitfire. All on the same day.
CB: I’ll stop this for a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: We’re talking about the variety of planes you flew, Mary, but in the early training —
ME: No.
CB: At White Waltham they had Hurricanes there. Did you deliver many Hurricanes later?
ME: Well, it’s all in the logbook.
CB: You’ve got a variety here but the Hurricanes aren’t a major item. I’m just curious to know whether you —
ME: Well, if you give me I’ll tell you.
CB: Yeah. Because you’ve got Albacores, you’ve got Spitfire, you’ve got Wellingtons. All sorts of things in there.
ME: There you are.
CB: Oh, there we are.
ME: Those are the ones I flew.
CB: Yeah. At the back. Thank you. So, you’ve got a Tiger Moth as a starter. How did you like the Tiger Moth after what you’d been training on?
ME: I didn’t fly Tiger Moths after I’d been doing my training.
CB: Right.
ME: Silly questions.
CB: Yeah. So, we’ll stop there just for a mo.
[recording paused]
ME: Different types in fourteen days.
CB: Right.
ME: It’s all down there.
CB: Yes. So, did you end up with a preference for certain aircraft and ones that you’d like to avoid. If you had the choice.
ME: We were not given a choice.
CB: No.
ME: We were told each day which aeroplane to fly and where from and to.
CB: Yes.
ME: We had no choice.
CB: No.
ME: But we had a choice as to whether we were flying or not. We had no radio. If we chose not to fly because the weather wasn’t what we wanted then we didn’t. I didn’t. And another thing is there are two or three different aeroplanes all in the same day, different places.
CB: Yes. And what’s it like switching from one plane to another when they are different in the way they handle?
ME: [laughs] Well I don’t know. We had a little book with ferrying pilot’s notes. Read the book. Get in the aeroplane and fly.
CB: And what are the most significant points in the ferry pilot’s notes that they’re making you aware of? Some of them had flaps and some didn’t I presume for instance. Did they?
ME: Oh, I don’t want to go into the technical pieces of —
CB: Ok. Doesn’t matter. I’ll stop just for a mo.
[recording paused]
ME: Garlands or whatever it was.
CB: Right. So I suppose —
ME: It was all, it was all different.
CB: Yes.
ME: But you had to know this.
CB: Yes. That’s what I was getting at really because —
ME: Have you seen the ferry pilot’s notes?
CB: I haven’t. No.
ME: You haven’t.
CB: No.
[recording paused]
CB: So, what you have there is a book of pilot’s notes. Ferry pilot’s notes. Could you just do what you did just then? Tell me what variety have you got in there of planes because it’s just significant in terms of how you had to handle this extraordinary change of aeroplane.
ME: It wasn’t, it wasn’t only the aeroplanes. We had no radio whatsoever. We had nothing except our own thing. And to go from one place to another and when one gets to an airfield that is flying Oxfords and then you have to go around and sit in somewhere. Or another place. I’d go to Shawbury and take a Wellington. And I go around and I have to fit in with all the others because they are talking with the RAF. But I have no radio and they don’t know really I’m there except by looking and I have to choose when to go in and land. And it wasn’t easy.
CB: So, you’re talking about fitting into the circuit.
ME: I’m flying a Wellington all by myself, with nobody else there. So I couldn’t ask. They’re all there.
CB: Yeah. So a huge range in there and the number, the notes are simply on a single sheet. Yeah. So, in here we’ve got Catalina. Buckmaster. Blenheim. Huge variety. Albacore. Tutor.
ME: They’re in alphabetical order.
CB: Yes. And Firefly. Did you do any four engine bombers?
ME: Yes. As a second pilot.
CB: What was that?
ME: In a Stirling. And a Halifax. And a Lancaster.
CB: Right. So, in those four-engined planes were there just the two of you or would there be another person as well.
ME: No. There was also an engineer.
CB: Right. Right. And the engineer was there because of them being multi-engined. Right.
ME: That’s right.
CB: So, in the circumstances of this navigation challenge it’s amazing that you managed to find places. What was the way that you planned a route to get there with no radio.
ME: We just had a map.
CB: Yeah.
ME: And don’t forget all these places were — what’s the word?
Other: Camouflaged.
ME: Camouflaged. And they were not easy to find.
CB: No.
ME: And some of them were secret and so they were very difficult to find but we did it. Didn’t we?
CB: Extraordinary. Yeah. What about the night flying? You said you weren’t normally going to do that.
ME: No.
CB: Were some people —
ME: The whole idea of the Air Transport Auxiliary was to get the aeroplane safely from the factory to where they were needed in the RAF and the RNAS. It was no good breaking them because the country at one time was almost without aeroplanes. And so we had to be very careful.
CB: Yeah.
ME: But we were very much on our own. We could fly or if we didn’t like the weather or we didn’t like the aeroplane then we were not pressurised at all.
CB: Which sort of aeroplane would you not like, really?
ME: Which what?
CB: Which sort of aeroplane would you not like?
ME: I didn’t like the Walrus. I know it was a very useful aeroplane.
CB: Seaplane.
ME: But it had a mind of its own and once it clattered about like a lot of bags of old things and something and it made a terrible noise on the ground [laughs] and in the air it just did what it wanted to do no matter what. It was terrible [laughs] but I flew quite a lot of them.
CB: Did you land them all on land? Or did you land some on water?
ME: Yes. They were made at Cowes and I took them from Cowes and landed them wherever I had to.
CB: Yeah. If the weather deteriorated what would you do while you were flying?
ME: Either put down at some aerodrome. It didn’t matter where. Or turn around and go back. Just depended on what weather was coming.
CB: And the people on the [pause] your destination were all expecting you.
ME: No. They didn’t know.
CB: Sounds interestingly challenging.
ME: Very challenging.
CB: Yeah. So, when you landed in your Wellington and got out — what happened next?
ME: Well [laughs] I can tell you the story which everybody already knows. You can tell the story couldn’t you Frank?
CB: Well it’s just we can’t hear it on there. Yes. Could you tell it please?
ME: This, yes, this Wellington I delivered. I can’t remember where it was but I delivered it to some station and I taxied to dispersal and switched off and then opened the door and let the ladder down. I went down with my parachute and the crowd of people on the ground who were there they were amazed. This schoolgirl, you know, flying these big aeroplanes. And they just stood there. And I said, ‘Can we go to control. I must have my chitty signed.’ And they said, ‘We’re waiting for the pilot.’ I said, ‘I am the pilot.’ There I was, you know, young and lovely uniform and they wouldn’t believe me so two men went inside to search the aeroplane to find the pilot. And they came out and they said, ‘No.’ There was no sign of anybody else so they accepted that I was the pilot. And I was. But I was unusual for one small girl to be flying these bombers. Hampdens and things like that.
CB: The fact a girl was doing it or just on her own?
ME: Without any radio. Without anything else at all.
CB: So was there a rule that if it was a bomber there would normally be two pilots?
ME: In the RAF they would have five.
CB: Yes, but —
ME: I think.
CB: In delivery. On delivery, when you were doing, delivering bombers was there a rule that normally there would be two for bombers or just one pilot.
ME: No. There was only two when they were four-engined ones.
CB: Yeah.
ME: Or if I flew an aeroplane like a Mitchell, I think, if you couldn’t get to the emergency you had to carry an engineer but not another pilot.
CB: You mentioned uniform. So how did you feel about your uniform?
ME: Well we were so used to having a uniform we were so pleased when we had two days off because we worked for two weeks and then had two days off and it was nice to get into civilian clothes and rush off all around one’s friends and go home.
CB: Were you based, yourself, always at White Waltham or did you move elsewhere?
ME: I wasn’t based at White Waltham. I was based at Ferrypool 15 which is Hamble.
CB: Right. And what sort of accommodation did you get there?
ME: It was very good. Everywhere I went was very very good because the ATA sorted it all out and we were just taken from one place to another to another. And I was stationed at Basildon and lived with a family in this big, big house, you know, and they looked after me frightfully well. And each girl had some other place. So, we were all well looked after. We had to be ‘cause we were flying each day and all day.
CB: So, when you got to your destination for the delivery you were picked up by the taxi were you?
ME: Usually. But sometimes I had to fly an aeroplane up to Prestwick and maybe it took two or three days to get there depending on the weather and something. And then I had to come back by night train to London. Back to White Waltham and there they would give me another aeroplane to fly back to Hamble.
CB: Right.
ME: A delivery flight. So, very complicated but it was marvellously operated.
CB: Well, very well organised. What were the taxi planes? Predominantly.
ME: The Anson or the Fairchild.
CB: And they went to various places. They picked up pilots from various places did they? On the way back.
ME: Yes. It’s usually a junior would fly the empty aeroplane and whoever got in the other aeroplane the senior pilot would take over.
CB: On the way back.
ME: So if someone went to pick me up then I would have to fly the aeroplane back or wherever it was going. Probably to another delivery place.
CB: We talked about your initial training at White Waltham which was single-engine. Was it? Where did you do your twin engine training?
ME: Pardon?
CB: Where did you do your twin engine training?
ME: I went to Thame for two hours. And that was on light twins. I flew an Oxford for several hours. And when I’d flown lots and lots of different aeroplanes like twins I then went back to White Waltham and I was given a few hours training on a Wellington which put me in the league of all these bombers. And so it was. And from having training on five different aeroplanes I was able to fly a hundred and seventy six aeroplanes.
CB: Right. What was the most daunting thing about switching to a thing like the Wellington because it’s quite a big aeroplane.
ME: I know but [laughs] you don’t need strength really to fly the big aeroplanes, do you?
Other: Not these days you don’t.
CB: No.
Other: It was a bit more difficult in those days.
ME: I’ll tell you one thing that happened in the Spitfire. Two of us girls were going from Southampton one morning. Quite short. And it was quite hazy. Very thick hazy. You couldn’t see. You could see straight down like that and my friend went off in her aeroplane and I thought yes, I’ll go off in mine and took off and it was, I went above the haze as much as I could and I never saw another aeroplane. But we were both going to Wroughton which is Swindon and the thick haze was so great that I managed to look down because I’d judged on the time and what have you that it was — Wroughton was there. And I looked down and it was there. And I didn’t see any other aeroplane. I couldn’t see anyway. Only straight down. So, I did a circuit and came in to land and she must have done exactly the same. I don’t know. But she did a circuit the other way and we actually passed on the runway. We were actually wheels on the runway. She was going one way and I was going the other. We must have missed by inches [pause] and we didn’t see each other. Not even, not even at the end, coming in to land.
CB: Amazing.
ME: We only saw each other as she was going that way or I was going that way and suddenly there was another aeroplane and then I discovered later it was her and she discovered it was me. So we decided we mustn’t tell anybody.
CB: What conversation did you have about that?
ME: Oh, it frightens me. Lots of lovely stories like that.
CB: Yes.
ME: But we can’t go on forever.
CB: Well. Finding the airfields, I thought, was an interesting point because your navigation clearly was very good but in certain circumstances it must be difficult. So how did you? When you got near to an airfield that you weren’t right on course how did you deal with that? You weren’t quite sure where it was. Did you do a square search or what would you do?
ME: Well we just had the maps.
CB: Yes.
ME: And hoped to get there. Whether we went straight or went that way and like that but we got there and then the map said this is the one. So then you had to operate in between the other aeroplanes which were being driven, piloted by the RAF. And the RAF didn’t know that we were coming.
CB: So, what was the technique? Would you fly overhead and then they would communicate with you by —
ME: How could they? We had no radio.
CB: By — no, no. By lamp. They would signal.
ME: No.
CB: They wouldn’t do anything.
ME: They were doing what they had to do and I would —
CB: You just joined the circuit.
ME: Well I couldn’t really join it because probably it was a different sort of aeroplane. Mine might be a Spitfire and somebody else’s might be an Anson or something.
CB: As time went on the planes became more powerful and sophisticated. How did you feel about that? Did you enjoy that?
ME: I loved the fast and furious ones [laughs]
CB: Tempest.
ME: The Tempest. The Typhoon. What was it? All those fast ones. The American one. What’s that?
Other: Mustang.
CB: Mustang.
ME: Pardon?
CB: The Mustang.
ME: Mustang. That was it. I did, I loved those. But then if you’re flying every day then it’s not as difficult as if you’re flying once a week.
CB: No.
ME: But it is difficult when you have three or four different types.
CB: In a day.
ME: In a day.
CB: Let alone in a week.
ME: And then being taken to somewhere else. [pause] Here you are. A Hudson. A Barracuda. A Boston. A Fairchild and a Spitfire.
CB: Three twins and two singles. Yeah.
ME: [laughs] I find it’s, it’s difficult to talk to anyone unless they are a pilot because they don’t appreciate the dangers we were in all the time. It’s amazing really that we did so well.
CB: Yes. What did you regard as your biggest danger when you were doing deliveries?
ME: Weather. Because the weather could clamp down at any time and the amount of meteorology that we knew was very little. It’s not much better today anyway [laughs]
CB: No. So you talked about going above the haze but would you sometimes put them really low in order to be able to see where you were going?
ME: Would I what?
CB: Would you fly really low sometimes in order to —
ME: Yes.
CB: Under the cloud.
ME: I liked to fly in a fast machine. I liked to fly so that I could see the church steeples and go from one to the other and I knew the country so well that I could do that on a flight. That was lovely [laughs]
CB: So where —
ME: I was still working of course.
CB: So, you did a bit of beating up occasionally.
ME: Yes.
CB: Airfields as well?
ME: Not, not airfields but if you were on track and you thought, ‘Oh my friend lives down there,’ I’d go [whoop] you know. Why not? As long as we kept the aeroplanes safe that was the thing.
CB: Yeah.
ME: Because a broken aeroplane was no good to anybody.
CB: No. How did you feel about when you were picked up by the taxies? How did you feel about being flown up by somebody else?
ME: In the Anson. There were sometimes five of us in the Anson. That was perfectly alright because we would go — whose duty it was that day to pick up. The Anson would go around and pick up until there were five or six of us in the aeroplane and then back to base probably.
CB: If the weather was bad you would have to stay at an airfield I presume. Would you?
ME: We did. Yes. We were well looked after if we had to stay.
CB: Because you had effectively an officer rank so they put you in the officer’s mess did they?
ME: Oh yes, we were. Yes. We were.
CB: And what happened in the social side of the officer’s mess activities? Off duty.
ME: Off duty. I wouldn’t know. If we stayed overnight we would have an evening meal and then obviously one was tired and I used to go to bed in the officer’s — wherever it was. I don’t know. They allowed us a very special officer’s place. What do you call them? In the officer’s mess or somewhere.
Other: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
ME: Anyway, we were well looked after.
CB: Well looked after.
ME: I was well looked after. Yes.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
ME: But what I didn’t like. I landed somewhere, I remember, and I had to stay the night and I stayed and ate in the evening with a lot of these RAF officers and then went to bed. And the next morning I got up and went to have breakfast and there were only one or two officers there. So, I said to one of them, ‘What has happened to everybody this morning?’ And they said, ‘They didn’t come back last night.’ And that really hurt. That was terrible. I couldn’t bear that. But I had to get in my aeroplane and go off.
CB: Are we talking about a bomber delivery here?
ME: So [pause] it wasn’t all fun.
CB: No. And did —
ME: Because I lost several friends, you know. The girls. They were there and then the next day at Hamble, when we went, they weren’t there. And we had to carry on. There was a war on.
CB: And what sort of things would cause the girls not to be there?
ME: Because they’d been killed.
CB: But flying in bad weather would it be, or aircraft breaking down?
ME: It was usually bad weather. As ATA.
CB: Yeah.
ME: Yes. It wasn’t, that wasn’t very nice.
CB: Did you strike up some really strong friendships with other ATA people?
ME: Yes. We were all fifteen, twenty girls together. We were all great pals. Some were high rank and some were low but it didn’t make any difference socially. We were quite happy to be together.
CB: And what rank did you start at?
ME: I started as a cadet. And then I skipped third officer and I became a second officer and I was a second officer for about a year and then I became a first officer. And after that, if one went higher, it meant you had to have a job on a desk as well as flying. I didn’t particularly want that.
CB: No.
ME: So, I tried to keep as a first officer.
CB: So that’s equivalent to flight lieutenant.
ME: No. It’s equivalent to squadron leader.
CB: Right.
ME: Isn’t that right?
Other: [unclear]
ME: Well I was told it was.
CB: So your real interest was to fly all the time. Were you marking?
ME: Rather than sit.
CB: Yes. Were you marking up your score of the number of different planes.
ME: No. No.
CB: Or was it just coincidence that it —?
ME: No. Each day one had to put in the log book.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
ME: Because they all had numbers and so you had to put them in the logbook.
CB: Yeah. Apart from the meeting on the runway in opposite directions what other scary moments did you have?
ME: [Laughs] Too numerous to say.
CB: Give us a sample.
ME: I — no I’m not going to say that. [pause] Yes. There were always little incidents rather. Especially with Spitfires when the tail wheel wouldn’t either go up or go down. I can’t remember. Do you remember?
Other: You’re probably thinking about the main wheels because the tail wheel, first, the very early ones had a skid and then they got the tail wheel very early on but it was not retractable. I think they did have some on the PR aeroplanes that were retractable. I’m not sure.
ME: I’ve got a lot of things in one or two of my books.
CB: Was the Spitfire rather temperamental or was it just you needed to drive with caution?
ME: Here’s a Headquarters, Finding Accidents Committee. “The aircraft landed at its destination with the tail wheel retracted.”
CB: Right. The later model.
ME: “The pilot is held not responsible for this incident.”
CB: Right. Right.
ME: Or accident.
CB: Right. So, which aircraft was that?
ME: This? What?
CB: Which aircraft was that?
ME: It was a Spitfire.
CB: Right.
Other: Interesting.
ME: I don’t know where it was. I’ve got [unclear] [pause] yes, I had [laughs] I was flying over the New Forest one day. I was going to pick someone up from Stoney Cross. I was flying a taxi aeroplane and the engine clipped so, as you know, you can’t stay up there too long when you’ve got no engine. Fortunately, I found a space and I managed to get down in this space which was very very small and I didn’t damage the aeroplane. But there I was. Stranded. And from out of all the trees and bushes came a herd of cows and I’m terrified of cows. And so I had to be rescued [laughs] myself. Somebody passing by or doing something saw an aeroplane and so they came and rescued me from these cows which is extraordinary. To land an aeroplane quite safely and then have to be rescued from the cows [laughs]
CB: And as a farming girl that was quite interesting.
ME: [laughs] yes. There was a reason why I was not very [laughs] intimate with the cows.
CB: In the early days of farming was it?
ME: [laughs]
CB: So, what was that plane you were flying that day? A single engine was it?
ME: There you are. Eleven types in fourteen days. Did I tell you that?
CB: No. That’s good.
ME: I did.
CB: You did.
ME: That was that one. Well, there was ten types in fifteen days.
CB: Right. What’s the predominant one there?
ME: On July the 6th I flew a Wellington.
CB: Yeah.
ME: A Defiant, a Wellington, a Spitfire and a Swordfish. All in the same day.
CB: Quite a bit of variety. What was the Swordfish like to fly?
ME: It was lovely.
CB: Draughty.
ME: I liked being out in the open for a change. It was. It really was lovely. It was like a ginormous Tiger Moth.
Other: It was big.
CB: Apart from the Walrus which you didn’t like what other plane would you rather have avoided?
ME: I think I told you. The Walrus.
CB: No. Apart from the Walrus.
ME: There isn’t one I disliked but several I found rather more difficult to handle than others.
CB: Would that be twin engines more difficult to handle or some of the very fast?
ME: Some of the bigger ones.
CB: Yes.
ME: Like a Hampden. And you know when you fly a Hampden you have to put a special thing on to get the undercarriage down. If you forget to press this little knob —
CB: Pneumatic.
ME: Then the undercarriage won’t go down and so you circle around and think why can’t I get the undercarriage down? Eventually you just remember to poke this thing [laughs]
Other: Yeah.
CB: Did you ever have a wheels-up landing?
ME: Yes. I did [laughs] I hesitate because I don’t really like answering it but Chattis Hill was a secret place for making Spitfires.
CB: Oh.
ME: And it was in [pause] what’s it near? Chattis Hill. What’s it near?
Other: [unclear]
CB: I don’t know where that is.
ME: Anyway, it was a secret and it was on a side of a hill. And I took this Spitfire off down to where they’d been training horses. So I went down to get a good look and I took off quite happily and one day I forgot that it was a different engine and [laughs] I hadn’t changed the trim the right way and I took off and I went zoom. Like that [laughs] and missed the trees by that much. ‘Cause you know there’s a Merlin engine and a Griffon engine. Now, I forgot so that was my fault. But shortly before or after that I took off from Chattis Hill, this secret place and I went up and I couldn’t get my green lights. In fact, I couldn’t get any lights at all and so I didn’t know what was happening with this Spitfire. And then it started getting warm and I thought I can’t stay up here so I flew around this place and these people in this secret place, I saw them bring out the fire engine and I saw them bring out the ambulance and I thought, oh. And I then went back around and I knew I had to land somehow and so I did. I came in to land and I switched an engine off as I crossed into the field.
CB: On the boundary.
ME: And then sat it down without any, without the undercarriage, without more ado.
Other: [unclear]
ME: It, because I’d switched off everything I could it wasn’t too bad. I got a few bruises myself. But they soon mended the aeroplane I think. A couple of weeks afterwards.
CB: Yeah.
ME: It was flying again.
CB: So, did you come in at a lower speed in order to make sure that you stuck well or how did you do it?
ME: When?
CB: When you were on finals did you actually come in slower than you would have done with the undercarriage down?
ME: What do you mean finals?
CB: Final approach.
ME: Are you talking about this aeroplane?
CB: Yes. As you came in.
ME: It wasn’t [laughs] There was no case of finals. It was just a racecourse.
CB: Right.
ME: [laughs] And I knew if something — obviously I would come in as slowly and safely as I could.
CB: Yeah.
ME: All my learnings came into my head in a fraction of a second and that’s why I didn’t break it very much.
CB: Just bent the propeller.
ME: So all my learning was very good [laughs]
CB: You clearly had a huge number of experiences. What would you say was your proudest event?
ME: Oh, I don’t know [laughs]
CB: I should think that was one of them. Getting it down undamaged.
ME: Pardon?
CB: I should think that was one. Getting it down undamaged.
ME: Ahum.
[pause]
CB: Now, there were men in the ATA as pilots as well as women. So how did that fit?
ME: We were all girls at Hamble.
CB: Right.
ME: We didn’t have any men.
CB: Right.
ME: Just one engineer man. That’s right.
CB: So, at Hamble you were picking up brand new aeroplanes.
ME: We were not always picking up brand new aeroplanes. Quite often we were picking up aeroplanes that had been damaged that had to be flown to the MUs to be fixed again to carry on flying. Quite often we did that. It wasn’t always new ones.
CB: So were you delivering the damaged ones as well as picking up the ones that had been mended?
ME: Yes.
CB: Right. And when you landed at the airfields there was a simple — they weren’t expecting you but there was a simple procedure that you went through was there? To hand over the aircraft.
ME: No. We went and put the aeroplane where they asked us to put it. And then we had this little chitty which we took back with us to Hamble and put it in so they knew that we had delivered that particular aeroplane safely.
CB: Yeah. I’m going to stop there for a mo.
[recording paused]
ME: Meteor flight.
CB: No. So tell us. The first jet.
[pause]
ME: This —
CB: So, this was —
ME: That’s what you wanted.
CB: Thank you.
[pause]
CB: This is a letter from November 1945 saying, “Dear Miss Wilkins, I’d like to add to the expressions conveyed to you by my commanding officer my own appreciation of your good work you’ve done for the Air Transport Auxiliary as a ferry pilot. I wish you every happiness in the future and success in any work you may undertake. Yours sincerely, Senior Commander, Director of Women Personnel, Air Transport Association.” Amazing.
ME: Thank you.
CB: So, the Meteor. Where was that being collected from?
ME: Yes. When ATA really closed in ’45 I was seconded with a few other men to fly in 41 Group. The RAF.
CB: Yes.
ME: So, I was posted to White Waltham and during that time I was asked — given a Meteor to fly. [pause] And so I flew it [laughs]
CB: So where did you take off from?
ME: I was flown to Gloucester. Where we were the other day.
CB: Yeah. Staverton.
ME: I flew it from Gloucester to Exeter. I’d never seen one before and I remember saying to the pilot, ‘I can’t fly it because it doesn’t have any propellers.’ [laughs] And so, I said, ‘Can you tell me any of its characteristics or something.’ And he said, ‘All I can tell you is that you must watch the fuel gauges because they go from full to empty in thirty,’ something, ‘Minutes so you’d better be on the ground in that. Before that.’ And that’s all the instructions I had on a Meteor [laughs]
CB: So, what did they explain about the engines and how they operated?
ME: I’ve no idea.
[pause]
CB: Extraordinary. Because one of the interesting —
ME: I just had to fly it and I had my book.
CB: Yeah.
ME: I looked in the book.
CB: Pilot’s handbook.
ME: What it said.
CB: Yeah.
ME: This, that and the other and I just flew it.
CB: Did it tell you you had to keep the revs above a certain level?
ME: No. It didn’t [laughs]
CB: ‘Cause one of the interesting —
ME: How would I know? Because it was entirely different from an ordinary aeroplane.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
ME: So, I just looked in the book and there it told me and so I did what it said.
CB: What height did you fly on that?
ME: Oh. I can’t remember but I remember going off and I thought oh I’m up here. Where am I? I’m lost [laughs] but I soon found myself. Oh and the pilot had told me it would drop like a stone when I took the power off but I didn’t find that at all. I did, it could be a perfect landing and all the people at Exeter were there to greet it and they couldn’t believe this female [laughs] this young female driving this. And the CO said, ‘Oh that’s wonderful. We’ll have a party,’ [laughs] and he said he would keep it for his own because they were changing from Spitfires to Meteors or the other way around. I don’t know which. Anyway, that was my experience which was fantastic. I thought it was wonderful.
CB: And how did you feel the acceleration and speed on that compared with a Spitfire?
ME: Well it was nothing like a Spitfire. A Meteor’s got two engines. A Spitfire’s only got one. So [laughs]
Other: Very fast.
ME: Oh, dear.
CB: Yes.
ME: I’ll tell you what.
CB: Yeah.
ME: Someone said you wanted to know how many Wellingtons I’d flown.
CB: Yes.
ME: And so, I put it out at one, two, three, four to be continued. I got tired of doing it so I —
CB: Right. That’s very good.
ME: And there it is. I copied from my logbook.
CB: That’s lots of Wellingtons. Yeah.
ME: Hard work that was.
CB: Thank you.
ME: Four engines were Lancaster, Lancaster, Liberator, Stirling and Halifax.
CB: Did you fly as first pilot in any of those?
ME: Not the four engine ones.
CB: Right.
ME: No.
CB: And were they also flown by women?
ME: There were secret places.
CB: Yeah. Were they flown by women?
ME: Yes.
CB: As well. They were.
ME: Yes. Of course. Women did everything.
CB: They did. Marvellous. Yeah. So was it only one Meteor you flew or did you go on to fly others?
ME: Pardon?
CB: Did you fly other Meteors?
ME: No. Because I was only there for three months.
CB: Right.
ME: And they were just making these Meteors then. No other girl alive has flown a Meteor.
CB: No. I can imagine. So, then the war ends. Well, what happened at the end of the war?
ME: Well, flying ceased so I went home. I went home. Played tennis with my mother.
Other: [unclear]
CB: And when did you meet your husband to be?
ME: I met him, oh I don’t know. I was running the airfield up here for about ten years before I met him. And then suddenly he appeared and he was a commercial pilot then. So. He was very handsome and so I thought [pause] he talked me into it. I may as well agree [laughs]
CB: So, after the war then you went home and played tennis but after that you went back in to flying.
ME: Well, I just said I came to the Isle of Wight as a, I was a personal pilot to a man that had an aeroplane but no pilot.
CB: Oh. Who was based in the Isle of Wight. Right.
ME: That’s why I’m on the Isle of Wight.
CB: And how often did he use his plane? Well you flew it but —
ME: Very often because he went to various places in, he had to go to committee meetings every so often to here, there and all over the country. So, it was rather fun.
CB: What plane did he use?
ME: A Gemini.
CB: But it had a radio [laughs]
ME: Pardon?
CB: But it had a radio now.
ME: No.
CB: Oh. it didn’t.
ME: No.
CB: Oh right.
ME: No. It didn’t.
CB: What about going abroad? Did he go abroad in it?
ME: I can’t hear now because my hearing aid has just run out.
CB: Ok. I’ll stop.
[recording paused]
ME: I became a personal pilot to this farmer man.
CB: Yeah.
ME: Then he bought a small airfield.
CB: Oh.
ME: And he had several managers which he wasn’t happy with and then one day he suggested that I could manage it for him. And I thought, well it’s a challenge and I like a challenge. So after a while instead of going home I decided to become an airport airfield manager so I was made manager and a few weeks afterwards when I started to build it up and I built the place up and up and I became airport commandant [laughs] because I’d now fixed in a CRDF and all sorts of things which had to be in order for the airline to come in and I did so desperately want the airlines to come in to the Isle of Wight. And so, I had to have all this CRDF and everything else. So, I did that.
CB: This is at Sandown.
ME: And the airlines came in. In the summer it brought people from Leeds and Manchester and Birmingham and Exeter and London. Every day in the summer. Which was — people can’t remember here that this ever happened but it did and it was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. And then of course I was married by this time and my husband was working for the — what was it?
Other: The Hovercraft.
ME: Hovercraft
LS: Yes. Yes.
Other: Hovercraft.
ME: Yes. The British Hovercraft. Whatever it was called.
CB: The British Hovercraft Association. At Cowes. Yes
ME: And he was posted out to various places around the world and then he didn’t like that very much so he came back. And he was asked again, please would he go to various places and he said he wouldn’t go unless I went with him. So it was a case of he giving up his job or me giving up mine. And unfortunately for me I had to give up. So, I said I can’t stay here any longer and so I went abroad with my husband but because I left the field gradually went downhill and it closed shortly afterwards and went for sale. And I didn’t know anything about it then because I was abroad. Had I stayed I would have gone on. Without my husband [laughs]
CB: Yes. We’re talking about Sandown aren’t we? Yes. Which still has a grass runway. So, you went around the world with him. Then eventually he returned to the UK. You did. Together.
ME: Yes.
CB: Then what?
ME: But that, that would take, that took about four or five years because I was in the airfield here from ‘50 to ‘70. ‘70 I took off with my husband. So that was twenty years.
Other: Mary. You did the pleasure flying. Mary. Pleasure flying.
ME: Pleasure flights.
Other: Yeah.
CB: You did pleasure flights.
ME: Donald did afterwards.
Other: Yeah.
ME: But — yes because Donald bought an aeroplane. My husband. And together we did pleasure flights. Yes. That’s right. Which was very interesting because quite a lot of people that went for a pleasure flight decided that they would learn to fly afterwards because they enjoyed it. It was going around the Isle of Wight. So that was some good. And then, for some reason, Donald left and said, ‘I don’t want to do that anymore.’ So he didn’t. And I just went. We sold the aeroplane and I more or less went with the aeroplane just selling tickets. And that’s how people know me. Selling pleasure flight tickets. They don’t know anything about my previous life.
CB: Extraordinary. Yeah.
ME: It’s extraordinary.
CB: Yes. Eventually you gave up selling the tickets.
ME: [laughs] Yes.
CB: And settled down to a bit of retirement.
ME: I’m trying to grow old gracefully with my great help.
CB: Yes. Lorraine.
ME: My great friend.
LS: We try to inspire each other. You’re still inspiring me anyway, Mary.
CB: And finally as far as the air, the association was concerned, the organisation continued.
ME: Which?
CB: In the background. Your [pause] your girl, the girls who were in the —
ME: That stopped at the end of the war.
CB: Right.
ME: That finished in ‘45 and so I had three months in’ 46 when I was with 41 Group.
CB: Right.
ME: Which is part of the RAF isn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
Other: I’m not sure, Mary. I don’t know.
CB: Yeah. But the Air Transport Auxiliary had an Association afterwards did it? Where people kept together and so you kept in touch with the girls you’d flown with for all those years. Did you? At annual events?
ME: There weren’t very many because most of the girls had been married and so they stayed at home.
CB: Right.
ME: But we did have one reunion. Yes. And that was all. And gradually they have all gone to heaven. Or somewhere.
CB: Yeah. Well Mary Wilkins Ellis thank you very much for a most interesting conversation and we wish you many more years.
ME: You can’t do that because I’m a hundred and a half already.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AEllisMW170703
PEllisMW1701
Title
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Interview with Mary Ellis
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
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01:17:14 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2017-07-03
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Wilkins Ellis was born in Oxfordshire and became interested in aviation at a very early age. She experienced her first flight with Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus. Mary learned to fly while still at school and obtained her licence in 1938. When the war began all civil flying was stopped and she thought her flying life was over until she heard a request on the radio for ladies who had a flying licence to join the Air Transport Auxiliary. She applied and was accepted immediately. She began her training at Hatfield and then at White Waltham, where she learnt the rudiments of flying various different kinds of aircraft as well as emergency training, meteorology and morse code. As with all ATA pilots, she began ferrying planes to airfields without the benefit of a radio and landing without any assistance. This led to a number of close calls. One day she ferried two Wellingtons, a Spitfire, a Defiant and a Swordfish. Towards the end of the war she also flew a Meteor.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Air Transport Auxiliary
aircrew
Anson
B-25
Blenheim
Catalina
Defiant
Halifax
Hampden
Hudson
Hurricane
Lancaster
Meteor
Oxford
P-51
pilot
RAF Hatfield
Spitfire
Stirling
Swordfish
Tiger Moth
Typhoon
Walrus
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/348/3517/PWaughmanR1501.1.jpg
ea7d7d15f3b9f96826258b16ff6e1ae6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/348/3517/AWaughmanR150803.1.mp3
4b20ad44c8f089eeec0544eae42cc539
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Waughman, Rusty
Russell Reay Waughman
Russell R Waughman
Russell Waughman
R R Waughman
R Waughman
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Russell Reay "Rusty" Waughman (1923 - 2023, 1499239 and 171904 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 101 Squadron.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-04-01
2015-08-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Waughman, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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RW: All wrote a little letter and signed it and sent it to the station commander who interviewed us and said, ‘This constitutes mutiny.’ So, with all our explanations of what went on he accepted that the fact that we’d been left off the draft and the corporal [?] corporal from West Kirby was actually charged for taking bribes to take, put people on, take people off drafts and put friends on. So, there we are. There we are. We’ve got no records, no kit, no nothing so we had to start again. So we didn’t do the, so we went and did our IT, initial training, again at Stratford on Avon which was rather nice, very fine. Nice place Stratford. I think I had my first girlfriend at Stratford. She was a very, she was a nice little girl. I often whatever happened to all these creatures looking back on all these times but there we are. We did our initial training again and from there of course we had to learn to start playing with aeroplanes and to start with we had to make sure that we were alright and worth sending overseas. We had to go to Codsall at Wolverhampton and er on a Tiger Moth just go solo. As soon as you got, went solo that was it finished until you were posted overseas and we went, went over to Canada on the Empire Training Scheme on the little ship called The Battery a converted Polish ship which was very comfortable, very nice. Very congested of course. And we landed at St John’s in Canada, down to Moncton which was the holding unit and then we travelled all across Canada on a public train to Calgary and the little aerodrome there was called Dewinton, which was just south of Calgary. We’d been there, back there since and Dewinton is now a suburb of Calgary which is incredible when you think of it. And that was nice and we were learning to fly on Tiger Moths and the Stearman. The Americans, the Boeing people had sent up sixty Stearman to the air force for people to learn to fly on. So we trained on both the Stearman and Tiger Moths and of course having finished the course I was a bit slow learning so I was, I think they were a little concerned about what the state of flying was. I was, I’ve always been a slow learner and I had a wash out check with the CGI on the station who very kindly allowed me to carry on and really from that time I never really looked back. It was really quite remarkable. And for some reason, I don’t know why, looking back I don’t know why they ever asked it but they said, ‘What do you want to become? What do you want to join? Fighter Command or Bomber Command?’ And you can imagine about ninety nine percent of us said Fighter Command so I was sent to Bomber Command which meant going down, back down on to the prairies to Medicine Hat and Moose Jaw learning to fly on the Airspeed Oxford and we had great times there. One thing we learned there which helped us later on in flying experience was the fact that we used to go off on a cross country with two pilots, no navigator, just one acting as pilot and one acting as navigator and switched over halfway through and we saw on a lake, which looked rather nice, we said, ‘Let’s low fly over this lake,’ which we weren’t allowed to do of course, which we did. Little did we know that there were ducks on the lake which rose up and we clattered through these ducks. I ended up with a duck wrapped around my face. We had six duck in the aircraft. Fortunately, they ended up in the engines nacelles, they didn’t damage the engines and of course when we got back we had a right old rocket from the, from the boss but the fact that we got the aircraft back between us and landed they allowed us to carry on. But I had to go to the dentist the next day on camp and the dentist said, ‘Oh you were the bloke who flew that aeroplane.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘We had duck for dinner.’ And then I sat back. And of course that was sort of an experience which helped us much, much later in life, in flying life, which was quite remarkable. And so of course having finished that course you took the little white flash out of your cap which was indicated that you were UT aircrew and took that out and you sewed on your wings in and then, oh, you were a pilot which was quite, which was quite remarkable. And of course you had to get back home so we forgot all about aeroplanes for quite a little while, travelled right back across Canada down to New York where we joined the Queen, Queen Elizabeth to come back home on the Queen Elizabeth and that was, wasn’t in convoy. We just pointed east and set off. It was quite, so new to us. We were so naïve and that was just a wonderful experience except on the Queen Elizabeth there were seventeen thousand others and we had a first class cabin along with eight other people which, you were sleeping in bunks with a chappie’s bottom above you rubbing on your nose, you know. But it was a wonderful experience. Two meals a day and it was wonderful. We lost two people overboard er but the boat didn’t stop they just threw life belts over and, poor souls. But there were Americans, nurses, Americans, Canadians, all coming back, back to the UK. Got back to Gourock up on the Clyde and then of course we had to find somewhere to go and be rehabilitated. We went first of all to Harrogate and then down to Whitley Bay and then back down to Oxford where we had a little rehab course on Oxfords just to get your hand back in again on Oxfords. That was at Kidlington, at Croughton, just outside Oxford. And the course, then of course you had to go to OTU Operational Training Unit and that was an amazing experience when we were flying the Vickers Wellington, the old Wimpy. When we got there of course you had to get a crew. You had a get a five man crew for the Wimpy and the system as I’m sure everybody knows was the fact that they got all the pilots, all the navigators, all the wireless operators a gunner and no engineer at the time and but the, and the navigator and put everybody into this big room and said, ‘Sort yourselves out into crews.’ And they used to go around and say, ‘I haven’t got a navigator. Are you a navigator? Can you fly? Do you want to fly with me?’ and this sort of system is amazing and the system worked. It really was incredible. And my crew had, you had no idea of the background of these people and my crew turned out to be the most wonderful collection of blokes and we flew really as a crew and not just a skipper and bods behind we just, and it worked out wonderfully well. Just to give an idea what they were my bomb aimer up front he was, had a little gypsy existence over in Manchester, a dapper little man, he used to come on operations with a crease in his trousers which was unheard of. My engineer, we had two engineers, I’ll relay about that a little bit when we come to flying. Les, my, I shan’t give his name because it so happened that he couldn’t cope on operations. He was just more or less a young lad working in an office. My navigator Alec, Alec Cowan, he was a real, he was a wonderful navigator, wonderful navigator. He lied about his age to join up. He joined up when he was sixteen and he was operational flying with us at eighteen. We didn’t know at the time. We didn’t find this out until sixty years later which was just as well. We were sitting in the pub at, at Lincoln at our reunion and we were saying, we had just had our eightieth birthdays and we said. ‘Oh we just had our, when’s your eightieth birthday Alec?’ And he said, ‘Well, it’s not for another two years yet.’ So that was the first time we, we found out what he was and he was just really more or less straight from school but he really was a most wonderful navigator. Taffy, a little wireless operator, he was a character. Oh, he was a mad little nut he was. We tried to find out where he was after the war and we discovered that his background was in Aberdare and his uncle had a pub and I think he was helping out in his uncle’s pub and I think he took that up for the rest of his life and I wouldn’t say he was a rebel, he was a wonderful character. His mischief, terribly mischievous bloke and we still keep in touch now. He’s a very, very close friend. A lovely little friend, Taffy. My engineer, I eventually had another engineer. A chap called Curly, Curly Ormerod and he was on the situation where he didn’t fly with his skipper who was shot down and killed and he didn’t fly that night he, because I had to get rid of my first engineer Curly was a spare engineer and he joined us and he was a, worked for the council in Oldham I think it was where he was a trainee engineer and just, only a young lad, he was twenty and my special duty operator because of the special duties he was my special duty operator, he was an Austin apprentice and he wanted to join the air force as a pilot but the waiting list for the pilot training then was quite long and he couldn’t wait that long so he volunteered to join as a gunner. We’ll explain a little more about Ted when we come to what they did in the aeroplane. Tommy, my mid upper gunner, he was a council worker in Rotherham and he was the old man of the crew. He was twenty six. The next one down was twenty. I was twenty at the time which was incredible when you think of our kids at twenty. You know, I’m sure if the same thing happened again now I’m sure the responses from the children, the young youth, would be the same but he was, he was married and he had a bit of leave on the station because his wife produced a baby. So, poor old Tommy, he had rather a tragic death after the war but still that Tommy. And my rear gunner, he was a Canadian. His father, an Englishman who had a funeral service, funeral service which he developed in Vancouver in America and Harry through his father’s English experience although he joined the RCAF he came over and joined the RAF as a Canadian. Again, these lads, you know although these vast different backgrounds we all gelled and we all worked together wonderfully well and what they did with us they kept us alive, you know and it really was wonderful. And I, myself, I couldn’t, I didn’t have any education at all. I went to school but because of my illnesses I went to school to start with at the age of five in Newcastle and then I became desperately ill and I was in bed for six months as a young teenager with TB so I couldn’t take place in sport or anything like that so when they came to doing exams when they did the scholarship in those days I went to school just before I was due to take the scholarship and of course I didn’t pass. So there I was. I was, I couldn’t go to a secondary school so I was sent to what they called a training school for the shipyards and it was a sort of engineering training school where at the age sixteen I started to learn about art and drawing, machine drawing and this sort of thing. It was, I enjoyed the school. It was nice but I had no exam, no exams at the end of it so when I, when I joined up I had no matric, no school cert, no exams at all. So how on earth I was ever passed. The only thing that helped I think when they were testing for the attestation was the fact that I became, I started off on the stage at the Newcastle Rep Theatre for a, for a year a bit while I got a position as a pupil surveyor at an architect surveyors office in Newcastle and there I used to do a lot of surveying work using angles and trade vectors and things which helped in the navigation exams and I think that helped me to pass the attestation exams in London. So there we are. There, you’ve got a crew. But we mentioned Ted, the special duty chap, Ted Manners, but he didn’t join the crew at OTU at all because we only had the five man crew and we didn’t know about, anything about special squadrons then of course and of course having finished at Operational Training Unit on Wimpies we were posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit which was at 1662 Conversion Unit at Blyton and of course with the demand for Lancaster aircraft and operational aircraft they had very few Lancasters available. The ones they had available were really the ones that weren’t fit for operational flying so we started to learn to fly four engine aircraft on Halifaxes, on ‘Halibags.’ A nice aeroplane to fly but not quite as amenable as the Lancaster from our experience later on but that was, that was nice, that was fine and of course on the station, on the same station they had what they called an LFS a Lancaster Finishing School so when we’d gone solo on the Halibag we went on to join this LFS, the Lancaster Finishing School and this was on Lancasters and they were a different aeroplane all together. It was a wonderful experience and experience we never expected to have in my life. But I had a little problem. Although my height was right I’ve got little short legs and when you’ve got twelve, four engines of twelve eighty horsepower all taking off with each engine, each propeller going around with three thousand revs you get a lot of torque, a lot of swing on take-off and with my little short legs I was having a hell of a job keeping these bloody black things straight down the runway on take-off so I was a little bit later finishing my training conversion than my friend Paul [Zaggy] who I’d trained with, been in parallel with for many, many months. And when we finished, when he’d finished his course he was posted to 101 squadron and when my turn came about two or three days later I asked the flight commander, ‘Can I go and join my friend Paul on 101 squadron because we’d been friends for a long, long time?’ And his response was, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘It’s a special duty squadron and we only send the best ones there.’ And I said Oh God that was a bit of a comedown. Anyway, a couple of days later he said, ‘Right, Waughman, 101 squadron. Off you go.’ And I said, ‘Well what’s this special duties thing?’ He said, ‘Oh you’ll find out when you get there.’ He didn’t know actually from what we found out later. And when we got to the squadron the day we arrived on the squadron my friend Paul had been killed the night before. And that, you suddenly begin to realise this is serious stuff, you know and you didn’t really think about it beforehand but then it became realistic. You did a couple of cross countries to get your hand in on the squadron experience and then we were given a special duty operator. An eighth member of the crew who spoke German, a German speaker operator and he was flying, was using this equipment called ABC. This ABC equipment started down on the south of England where there were fifteen stations with very fluent German speaking operators who could talk to the German night fighter controllers and jam their signals to their fighters, instructions to their fighters but it only had a range of a hundred and forty miles so that didn’t cover the deep penetration raids in to eastern Europe. So, Sydney Bufton, one of the air ministry boffins said well let’s put it in an aeroplane so they put, started putting them in. It took about three thousand hours to fit this equipment in to an aeroplane and quite an expense and this was allocated to 100 squadron. Now, 100 squadron were also having H2S which was a ground scanning radar and the power unit on the Lancaster mean you couldn’t cope with the ABC and the H2S so they chose the next squadron down which was 101 squadron. So 101 squadron became the special duty squadron flying this ABC and what they called the stuff on the ground station was called Jostle and it had a code name of Corona. Hence it became the Cigar and it was known as ground Cigar and of course when they got it stuck into an aeroplane it became ABC which was Airborne Cigar and Bufton wrote to the air ministry saying that in future correspondence all reference to Airborne Cigar aircraft will be known as ABC in future correspondence so hence 101 squadron became the ABC of the RAF which is remarkable. What Ted had, he had a little three inch cathode ray tube where he could pick up the frequency of the night fighter controllers and lock a little strobe on these, on these, on his screen, cover that with the aircraft’s, aircraft strobe, lock that on and he’d locked on to the frequency of the German night fighter controller’s instructions to the fighters. Having decided that on another little switch where there was German speaking because there were Poles, Czechs and things, once he’d decided that he pressed another little button which blasted engine noise out on that frequency and jammed the signals. And it was a wigwog noise woooooo oooo oooo and the Germans called that, they had a name for this and it was called dudelsack and I think it’s quite an appropriate little description ‘cause dudelsack means bagpipes. And so we had this ABC equipment which is wonderful stuff and this started operating in September, in ‘43. We didn’t join the squadron until November ‘43 and on the first raid the first, one of the first instructions that the special duty operator received from the German signals was, ‘Achtung. Achtung. English bastards coming.’ And that was one of the first instructions they had but sadly, one of our aircraft on that first raid was shot down and the Germans had the system right from the beginning but even the [telephones] people knew of the system but they couldn’t really work out all the technology of it at all so that was quite the thing. That was one of the things that added to the attrition rate on our squadron, the fact that the German night fighters could home on to our transmissions ‘cause we were using their frequencies so they could home on to us and the ABC aircraft were used on every major bombing raid that went out and the idea was that our aircraft were staggered every ten miles through the whole bomber stream. We acted as a normal bomber aircraft with a reduced bomb load, only slightly, well I suppose so I don’t think it ever happened actually but the equipment weighed something like [six or seven hundred pounds] plus another operator so it knocked our bomb load down a little bit and we had three enormous aerials transmitters on the aircraft. Two on the top and one under the nose and these were nearly seven foot long. It didn’t affect the aerodynamics of the aircraft whatsoever. We didn’t, we wouldn’t have realised they were there and we just there we were and our first raid, when we went off on our first raid my little engineer, there was something strange about him he didn’t seem really with it at all. Anyway, so we found we were getting in a bit of a mess and got in the way so, with experience I think we could have carried on but being so inexperienced we came back, we aborted the trip. So, we were, this was just at the very start in November of the Battle of Berlin and this was a trip to Berlin and the WingCo wasn’t too happy about it, WingCo Alexander. And our next operation a couple of nights later again was to Berlin and Les, my little engineer, nineteen year old, we had an engine on fire, a starboard outer went on fire and he just couldn’t do anything he just sat on the floor and just shiver and shake he couldn’t do anything, couldn’t do any of his work at all and I had to, the graviner button on the Lancaster is down on the right hand side of the instrument panel and I had to half get out of the seat to cover all this lot. He couldn’t do any of the fuel control systems at all. So, anyway when we got back I reported this to the wing commander who said, ‘Well you know I suppose you’ve done the right thing,’ and Les, this, my little engineer left the squadron that day, that afternoon. Whether he was made LMF which they usually do in those days we never did find out but he never should have been because he never refused to fly and this is what happened to a lot of Bomber Command aircrew who were literally shit scared. They really were and that was really a physical thing as well and these lads who knew what the conditions was never, they’d rather face the guns of Germany rather than have the stigma of LMF stamped on their documents and this LMF stamped on their documents followed them wherever they went afterwards and this information is kept by the record office and isn’t being released until 2035 so by that time none of the people will be alive to get any slur on their character. So we lost our little Les and this is when we got Curly who didn’t fly with Les the night he was shot down so we acquired Curly as an engineer. Wonderful character. Again, another great tease at the, he was a nice man though but we gelled as a crew and really in those days you did become slightly insular because you worked as a crew and trained as a crew and you played as a crew and I must admit we, we drank a lot. Eight pints a night wasn’t out of the way you know and this was part of the relaxation system for the, for the air force. Because of this Harris wrote to all station commanders, again we found out this much, much later, only fairly recently, the fact that a directive had been sent to the station commanders saying that no Bomber Command aircrew must be used on station duties unless it affected the running of the station and intimated that the relaxation activities must be condoned. Which, as far as that was concerned, was young lads full of testosterone was beer and women and it sounds a bit crude but the girls and boys on the station were really wonderful. They were really good companions. They knew what the system was and they complied and they were really lovely. We had one little girl who used to look after us in our little hut, in our little nissen hut which was, which was just a corrugated iron nissen hut and she was a little Welsh girl with a little doggie and she was known as the camp bicycle ‘cause everybody rode it, you know and these are the sort of the things that went but it wasn’t pornography it was just an accepted way of release of stress and one of my friends who I knew very well he used to say, ‘Well, thank God for sex. It’s kept me sane.’ And this was just a means of release of stress on the aircraft. And a lot of it did happen in Bomber Command sadly and it caused people to lose their lives which is rather a shame but you know those lads who flew and knowing their condition like that they were really the bravest of the brave, you know. They really were. Wonderful. And it kept Bomber Command going. But LMF, they didn’t have so many LMF. I think there weren’t a huge number cases of LMF but it was a rotten stigma and of course then having been on the on the, on the squadron with our ABC equipment we were involved very much with the German night fighter system and this was organised by a chap called, oh I’ve forgotten what they called him now, I’ll think of it in minute but he organised that the, all of eastern Europe, western Europe would be split in to five boxes. The Kammhuber. Kammhuber, the Kammhuber Line and this in each box each controller had control of their fighter system and they had a couple of systems there where they had, called Wilde Sau and Zahme Sau which is Wild Boar and Tame Boar and with the Wurzburg radar they could direct a fighter in to the bomber stream and nearly always ME109s and they were the Wild Boar who could go and find their own aircraft to attack and the Tame Boar was with Wurzburg and Freya aircraft systems whereby they could direct an aircraft almost on to an individual aircraft which was quite alarming as it turned out. We had experience of that and they developed a system called Lichtenstein whereby you see these aircraft with German aircraft they nearly all the ME109s with an array of aerials around the nose and they could actually home onto an individual aircraft and because of our ABC equipment we were very, very vulnerable. They could home on to the ABC equipment and the H2S and they developed the system called Naxos and SN2 which was very, very effective indeed and they could home directly on to aircraft and counter, counter measures for our broadcast so we had, they had a system where they could home on to our aircraft. We had a system where we would counter measure their counter measures, counter measure their receptions and they developed a [Frensburg] which counter measured our counter measures and we developed counter measures that would counter measured their counter measures and so on and the electronic wall we learned afterwards really was quite terrific but the German night fighter system was, really was very good. And they had with their, with their Wurzburg searchlights, radar controlled searchlights, radar controlled guns they had what they called predicted flak and predicted searchlights and when you were flying along you’d see this characteristic big blue searchlight appear which would wave backwards and forwards and as soon as it picked you up on the radar it flicked on to you and you were flying in their searchlights and all the searchlights roundabout would come on. You’d have perhaps forty, fifty, sixty searchlights flying with you and you were flying in daylight and of course the night fighters used to get in amongst you then but we had systems of flying. We flew the corkscrew pattern which flying a corkscrew pattern more or less like a horizontal corkscrew. It was bloody hard work when you’ve got a fully loaded aircraft. You lost a little bit of height doing it but it was really effective and the sad thing is when gunners, some gunners saw these things and gave instructions like say, ‘Dive starboard go’ and something like this some of the captains said, well, ‘Why?’ And of course by that time it was far too late but this corkscrew pattern did help enormously to evade the things and on the predicted flak it was quite a characteristic burst of flak. They usually put out a box system of flak where they just covered this area completely with anti-aircraft fire and you had to fly through this box of fire but they had this predicted flak whereby they could send up the shell which would burst in the characteristic sort of development and if you saw this behind you, if you were lucky enough, you knew this was predicted flak so, and you knew it’d take forty five seconds for the Germans to reload their guns, fire their shells and for the shell to burst so you turned off forty five degrees, and flew for about forty seconds then turned back ninety degrees and hope the next one burst behind you. This happened to us once and we nearly ended up in the system for twenty five, twenty minutes just doing this evasion all the time. Similarly with the searchlights, the searchlights I caused a bit of hilarity one night when we got back to debriefing saying that we were attacked by searchlights over Hanover but we were in searchlights for nearly half an hour trying to get out of them which, but with these sort of things happened on raids and so of course there we are we are flying on a squadron and it was daily life of being on the squadron. When you woke up in the morning usually late, after breakfast or early after lunch you went up to flights and on the wall you saw a battle order and could see your name on the battle order and all the battle order told you was A) you were flying, the crew you were flying with, the aircraft you were flying in, and the time of briefing, and the time of meal and when you saw that the first thing you did was go and change your underwear which is, which is, it really was. To say that you weren’t fearful, you know, it was very, it was very anxious, became very anxious because you had no idea where you were going. It was just you were on the battle order that night. So we used to go up to flights and check the aircraft, the serviceability of the aircraft, meet the ground crew, wonderful ground crew I had, and there you’d ask what the petrol load was and what the bomb load was and if you had lots of petrol, not so many bombs you knew you were going a long way. Vice versa if you had lots of bombs and not so much petrol you weren’t going so far so you had some idea what the thing was going to, what the raid was going to be about and then at briefing of course, on the wall, we were all in nissen huts by the way, little tin huts, on the wall they had a big map of Europe covered by a map, a curtain and when you all sat down and all got collected together they drew the curtain back and there was the red line which was a tape showing the route to and from the target and if it was a long distance target, Berlin, Munich, these groans used to go up right through the briefing and then you were briefed by the various section leaders, the met officer, the armament officer, navigation officer and there of course then you had to get out to the aircraft so we went in to the crew room, got our kit on and the girls in the parachute section, [collect your] parachute section, they were great. One little girl one day said, ‘Let me have your battle dress.’ And she took my battle dress off, took my wings off and sewed a lucky three penny piece under my wing. And these are the sort of things that went on. Wonderful characters. And you had a locker where you kept your kit in the locker and when you were flying the rear gunner had what they called a Sidcot suit which was an electrically heated suit but the rest of the crew you could really manage with just a thick jumper and battle dress. Some wore some form of overall but the costumes were really quite, quite ordinary. You had flying boots. We had, originally we had the brown fur lined flying boots and after that we had the escape boots, black escape boots, whereby they had a little knife concealed in the boot where you could cut the top off and leave a little, like a pair of shoes when you got shot down. There we are. We’ve got our kit, we’ve got our kit we’ve got to get out the aircraft so the crew buses arrived and we had to get out in to the, in to the aircraft but the atmosphere was quite electric, you know. They had sort of two sort or reactions. Some people were verbose and talked and over talked which was out of characteristic and some were just clammed up and just didn’t talk at all. So, when you got to out to the aircraft you just checked and went around and did a normal flight check for the aircraft, waiting for the signal to taxi out and of course once you got there, once you got in the aircraft there was no outside communication whatsoever ‘cause the Germans could pick up. In fact with their radar system they knew that the raid was going to take place and they knew the height you were going to fly at, they knew the course you were going to fly and the speed you were flying at but they didn’t know where you were going. So, we were waiting at the aircraft for the verilight to tell us to go and taxi out and of course the other little superstitions, you know the old tale of just a bit of luck you wee’d on the tail wheel. The lads used to wee on the tail wheel. We never did of course but er [laughs]. My rear gunner Harry, being stuck at the back he didn’t feel a part of this the bombing lark at all so he used to take a couple of empty beer bottles with him and when we were over the target his contribution to the bombing was to throw out a couple of empty beer bottles. This, this on one occasion when we were waiting to get on the aircraft the station commander, Group Captain King used to come around and just say, ‘Hello lads.’ Wished them all best of luck. Thinking of a man like that knowing, sending all these lads you know that a third of them aren’t going to come back, you know. What went through their mind must be, must be awful. Anyway, when the group captain saw Harry without his beer bottles Harry explained. ‘Oh I haven’t got my bloody beer bottles.’ He said, ‘Right. Get in the car.’ Dashed down to the mess, got a couple of beer bottles and drove him back again so Harry had them. Whether he drank them or threw them out full we never did find out but Harry had his beer bottles. I had a little, I wasn’t superstitious, touch wood but my cousin Mary, I’m very fond of Mary I think our parents were getting a little bit worried but Mary she gave me a silk scarf, a little RAF silk scarf which I wore on every operation I went on and I wore long johns, used to wear the long johns on the flying and I thought well if I change my long johns I’ll, you know, I’ll change my luck. We had two pairs. One for wearing and one for washing. I never had mine washed and I wore the same pair of long johns for thirty operations and the lads used to say, ‘Well you took them off and stood them up in your locker’ and you can imagine the odour on the aircraft with all this sort of thing going on must have been pretty awful. You didn’t notice it at the time. But another thing I had was my dad, one of the talismans for naval people was a caul and the caul is a sack a baby is born in and my dad was given one of these when he, when he first joined, when he started operations in the navy in the First World War and I was on leave just before I was joining the squadron. They knew I was going to go on an operational squadron and I was standing, I was standing by the stove in the kitchen and my dad came up and he wasn’t a very effusive man and he said, ‘Here’s this,’ and he gave me his caul in a little tin box which I’ve still got and that’s over a hundred years old and he said, ‘There you are. Good luck. I love you.’ And that was really a three hankie job, you know. A wonderful little man. But there we are I had my caul and I didn’t take it on operations but it kept me alive and these are the sort of superstitions you had but we weren’t on because of the job we were doing we weren’t allowed to take any sort of document, photographs or anything at all because of the very secret nature of our, with the work we doing. It was treated very, we weren’t allowed to take any photographs on the squadron at all. We did. And everything was kept very, we weren’t allowed to discuss it anywhere outside but A) our aircraft was parked at dispersal, we were W which was far end of dispersal just by a fence and the main road was just outside and I don’t know what guarding they had on the aircraft but anyway part of the secrecy thing was not having to take any documentation. When we got our sandwiches they were wrapped up in newspaper so they had a good, they could have had a good idea what was going on. So there we were, off on operations and operational flying became to start with you were so inexperienced that you didn’t really realise what was going on and the casualty rate in the first five operations was something like forty percent which was as high as that and it really was. It became quite an alarming thing. We didn’t realise at the time. We only found out this many years afterwards. So our squadron were very vulnerable and once we got past the five operations squadrons, five operations you really became quite fatalistic. You just, you were doing a job and accepted what you had to do and you expected you were going to die and it was quite a strange relationship that you had and you had a bit, a little bit of sick humour and I’m sure folk know of the grim reaper, the old skeletal figure with his scythe and with his scythe you got the chop and we used to say, when you were talking, standing by somebody, put your hand on his shoulder and you said, ‘Death put his bony hand on your shoulder and [live] chap I’m coming,’ you know and if you were in the mess and one of your comrades has been killed and gone you used to drink his health and you used to say, ‘Here’s to good old,’ so and so, ‘And here’s the next one to die.’ So this sort of atmosphere existed. Some people had premonitions you know and my mother, my mother was an old witch really she used to have dreams and things and she had a dream one night that things weren’t going to go right and she tried to contact the station to see what was going on and of course she couldn’t because the station was completely isolated and that was a night when we had an awful lot of trouble. But she had this idea. And one of the girls on the squadron one of the little WAAF officers, on the Nuremberg raid, said to her fiancé Jimmy [Batten] Smith she said, ‘You’ll be over the target about ten minutes past midnight.’ She said, ‘Right, I’ll set my alarm clock and I’ll think of you when you’re over the target.’ She woke up about 11 o’clock, half past ten, 11 o’clock and knew something wasn’t right and she switched on her light and listened and couldn’t find anything, anything about it at all and Jimmy, over the target, as soon as he left the target, just at the time, he was shot down and killed so he never got back. There’s another, our Flight Commander, Squadron Leader Robinson he was a wonderful, he had very, very rapid promotion because our previous flight commander was killed and he was promoted from flight lieutenant up to, straight up to squadron leader within a matter of weeks and he became our squadron commander er flight commander. Wonderful little man. And he had a rear gunner who was seconded from the American air force and this American chappie still had his brown overalls and American flying kit and they were in the mess and the lads were playing crib and poker and he, this Jones a chap called Jones, won the, won the kitty and I can see it now a little pile of ten shilling notes which he won which he when he picked it up he said, ‘Shan’t be needing this.’ And gave it all away. That night, on the raid, on the twenty ninth raid they were all killed. So whether they had these sort of premonitions, you know, it was quite remarkable and one of the bomb, when I came off leave one occasion we only had a short, a few days leave the bombing, the armament officer, only a young lad, he looked strange and I said, ‘Are you alright, Geoff?’ And he said, ‘Well, funny thing happened,’ an aircraft had crashed on take-off and hit part of the bomb dump and he jumped in his little wagon to go out and see what he could do out there and when he got on the perimeter track near where the bomb dump was there was a chap waiting and saying, ‘Don’t go down in there. They’re all dead.’ This chap was covered in blood and whatever. He said, ‘Don’t go down in there. They’re all dead.’ But he said, ‘I must.’ So when he went down to see the, what was going on he found the body of the man he’d been talking to on the perimeter track dead in the hut. So, and within a few weeks he was white haired. And these sorts of strange things happened you know it’s a, it’s a, you didn’t realise at the time all the significance of all these things but there we are. One of the things that happened, on one of the early raids when we went and poor old Bomber Harris, he didn’t like the idea at all but they developed what they called the transport plan whereby they were bombing railway martialling yards, [tank?] depots, station er station signal boxes and train stations to stop goods going down for the pre-invasion, for the German pre- invasion and so this was the transport plan and Harris didn’t like this but we went off on one raid to a place called Hasselt which was on the Belgian/German border, railway martialling yards and we got within about ten minutes of the target. This was all at night. This was all night flying of course in cloud, mainly in cloud and my engineer who was looking out the window said a very rude word, something about fornicating in hades and the next thing we knew this other aircraft hit us slap on the side and we just crashed into this, the two aircraft just crashed together and we were, he was slightly underneath us and his propellers cut through our bomb aimer’s compartment, just behind Norman’s feet. He was lying down ready to bomb. His mid upper, his canopy, the other aircraft canopy took off our starboard tyre, his turret, which was sticking up at the top of his aeroplane carved through our fuselage at the back, left a big hole in the back. We lost part of the tale plane. Lost all our electrics. Harry, the rear gunner was knocked unconscious, only temporary and we were a bit of a mess and thereby we, we were sitting, I didn’t see all this going on but the crew saw what was going on and when we hit this aircraft we were literally sitting on top of it and his propellers were churning through our little bits and pieces and we were in a bit of a mess and afterwards I was asked to write a little resume of what happened in the collision just for purely records sake and to give it a title of the most significant thing that happened, you remembered, on the trip and the most significant bit was sitting on top of this other aircraft with no control over your aircraft whatsoever. All the controls were just limp and wobbly. So, nothing. So, I called this the title of this thing, ‘It went limp in my hand,’ which was highly censored. I wasn’t allowed to do that. So this report went through and in consequence we had to do, coming back, we had to do a crash landing. We had Fido on the station and the Fido system was a sort of a little triangular system with the fuel pipe on the top and the gaps of about ten metre gaps within each section and unfortunately our dud wheel skidded between the gap and the thing and the other one bounced over the top of the pipes and just put a little dent in the top and there was a casualty that night sadly. We were skidding towards the control tower in the dark and we were getting very close to the control tower and all the staff on the control or most of the staff on the control tower and the little girls, came out to watch this idiot bend his aeroplane and as we were skidding towards it one of these girls jumped back and sprained her ankle and that was the only casualty that night but there were sort of talks of decorations and things but it never happened so I was very kindly given a green endorsement in my logbook and mentioned in despatches. That’s in the logbook now still but if it had been a red one it would have been an adverse report but a green one was a pat on the back sort of thing so that was, that was quite nice but there of course that aircraft was written off. As far as the squadron it was written off it had to be repaired and rebuilt but we discovered that two main longerons going along the back of the aircraft were badly damaged and had we to have taken evasive action no doubt the aircraft would have broken up and we realised that a lot of damage at the back because we had a big hole in the floor and I told Harry, the rear gunner, I said, ‘Harry, pick up your parachute, come up front just in case anything else happens.’ And he said, ‘No. I’ll stay here and keep a look out.’ And these are the characters that they were. Wonderful characters. And that wasn’t the only thing that Harry did. We went on one long trip and his electrically heated Sidcot suit failed. He never said a peep, never said a word and when we got back seven and a half, eight hours later getting out the aircraft they said. ‘Where’s Harry?’ ‘Oh he must still be there.’ So I popped into the aircraft, opened his door and there he was sitting with an icicle from his face mask as thick as my wrist down between his legs. He couldn’t move and he’d never said a peep he just kept on doing his job. He was in sick quarters for nearly three weeks and that affected him for the rest of his life. And this is what these poor lads got up to. It really was wonderful. I was so lucky with the lads I had as a crew. Wonderful and very conscientious lads. So there we are. We got back and of course the aircraft had to be taken away and we had to get a new aircraft. Our first aircraft was W with the squadron letters were SR and we had a W, W ABC all the way through. We had W, so we had W and there was a song of the day called. “Coming in on a wing and a prayer.” So I thought. ‘Oh lets,’ and there’s a P O Prune character so I painted on the front of the aircraft this P O Prune character with wings and “On a wing and a prayer” coming underneath and of course that was the one that we crash landed. That disappeared. That went. And we get a new aircraft almost immediately. Well, they got another aircraft almost immediately straight from MU and, ‘What are we going to put on the nose. What nose art were we going to have?’ And when we got out of dispersal to see the new aircraft Jock Steadman or Willy Steadman, Willy Steadman our Scottish in charge, NCO in charge of the aircraft he’d already painted on the aircraft Oor Wullie and Oor Wullie was the cartoon character from the Glasgow Sunday Post and that was the aircraft which gets all the publicity now and we did more operations in the other one than we did than we did in this one but they were wonderful aeroplanes to fly. Really, really were. So, anyway, there we are. We’ve got a new aeroplane and another operation we went on was to Hasselt which was another transport plant target whereby 5 group and 1 group were involved. A hundred and seventy three aircraft from each group. We were scattered all the way through the raid, just our squadron, so we were going to Hasselt which was French had been French military base which was the biggest military base in Europe at the time right on the edge of the village of Mailly and we were briefed to bomb very, very strictly. We didn’t want to kill anybody in the village so we had to be very precise, we were told to be very precise with our bombing so, and we were to assemble at a point just north of Mailly called Chalon whereby you waited there to get instructions from the master bomber, Cheshire who was the master bomber to go and bomb. He was really being very precise as well and he wasn’t satisfied with the marking so when the first group of a hundred and seventy three aircraft from 5 group arrived at Chalon, encircling the beacon, circling the area, it wasn’t a beacon as such but circling the area and being, the aircraft being delayed and delayed and delayed this second group caught up with the first group so there was something like nearly four hundred aircraft milling around waiting for instructions to go in and there just happened to be three German night fighter stations handy and they got in amongst us and it really was chaotic. There really were all sorts of awful things going on. The result of the raid was a very successful raid but the loss was over eleven percent. They sent just under four hundred aircraft and we lost forty two but there was only one aircraft crashed in the village where a French man were killed so that was compensation in a way. So when we were circling this beacon the RT discipline disappeared. You weren’t supposed to talk outside because the Germans knew where you were going, where you were coming from but the RT discipline just went that night and a voice came over the air to the pathfinders, ‘Pathfinders. For God’s sake pull your fingers out. I’m on fire. I’m being been shot at.’ And a very broad Australian voice came over the air, ‘If you’re going to die, die like a man.’ And this was the sort of thing that went on. The problem was that the American force [AFM?]were broadcasting on a similar frequency and it was the signals weren’t getting through as well as they ought to but anyway of course, when we got the order to go in and bomb it was just like Derby Day. All these aircraft ploughing down on the target. It was successful but we had a problem. We’d just dropped our bombs and we’d had an aircraft, something rattle us about with an updraft coming up and that. It was a bit rough but we’d just dropped our bombs and Norman, the bomb aimer, lying down in the front, he didn’t have time to say anything he just said, ‘Oh Christ’ and an aircraft blew up underneath us and turned us over. We were upside down and I can say I half rolled a Lanc [laughs]. So there we were, upside down at eight thousand feet and coming out you just couldn’t pull it out like that because the high speed stalled the aircraft so it took us a little while to come out and we were down to about a thousand feet by the time we sorted things out. Going very, very fast way beyond the [all up] speed of a Lancaster. We were doing nearly four hundred miles an hour. Four hundred knots as it was in those days and, but the aircraft just had scorch marks and a little bit of creaky stuff but there we are. Once you got sorted out you checked on the crew. ‘Alright, Harry?’ The rear gunner. ‘Yes skip.’ ‘Alright, Tommy?’ ‘Yes.’ Wireless op. ‘Alright, Taffy?’ And the response I got was, ‘Blood. Blood,’ and I thought, ‘Oh Christ, what’s happened?’ So I pulled the curtain back and there’s Taffy wiping his head and that’s all we knew and, ‘Oh God, what’s happened to Taffy,’ and Taffy, what happens when you’re flying at those, those temperatures, those heights, temperatures, the lowest temperature we had was minus forty seven and you had an elsan at the back of the aircraft which if you went and used that if you sat down on the elsan like that and you left a bit of your behind, behind ‘cause it was like you’d have an ice cube sticking on your fingers. You couldn’t do that so what the lads had they had a large [fuel] tin with the top cut off which they passed around the aircraft as a pee can and this pee can was kept down by the wireless operator which was the warmest place ‘cause it didn’t freeze when it was down there. And Taffy said now you can still see this pee can arriving with negative gravity and tipping all over him. When we were falling, coming out, recovering from the dive which we got in to and of course when you got back there was no question of going to get cleaned up. You had to go straight to be debriefed and of course he wasn’t exactly flavour of, flavour of the month which was, which was poor old Taffy. Still gets his leg pulled unmercifuly about that.
CB: I’m going to suggest we have a break.
RW: Yes fine.
CB: For a moment. So thank you very –
[pause]
CB: What it’s doing? We’re now recording again.
RW: Yeah.
CB: I’ve tried to do the playback but that didn’t work so we’re recording again now and I’m just hoping everything’s worked because it’s so good and I’m just looking at the numbers.
[pause]
CB: Right. So we’ve come to the point where you were inverted.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Would you just like to describe before we go on to other things just how did you get the aircraft upright?
RW: Well -
CB: Because you can’t turn, roll it. Can you?
RW: Well we had to, to a certain extent with being upside down. You just imagine an aircraft being upside down you had to get it the right way up and the only thing you can do is turn it around so while we were plummeting, plummeting downwards and getting rather fast we sort of half rolled the thing out. Sort of almost like a very poor barrel roll that we flew. So, we were upside down and you turned over and came out sort of in that direction so you didn’t do a full roll. It was sort of almost like a half roll like almost like a half missing out the last bit of a barrel roll.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Coming out but because of the weight it was hard work but you didn’t think of it as hard, you didn’t think of it as work at the time you just sort of had to get out of it. Get it back.
CB: Yes, of course.
RW: Flying again but, and you just couldn’t pull the stick back and get the aircraft flying again because you could develop what they called a high speed stall cause the wing stalls at fourteen degrees and if you’re mushing down it increases the angle of attack very rapidly and you get what was called a high speed stall so this is where the training came in with these other flying, these little experiences we had in training. So, we just really tried to come, come out as gently as we possibly could. You certainly had to pull back on the stick to get control but trying not to mush it down so you really tried to fly it out which we did in the end, going very, very fast.
CB: You say we. Was the engineer helping you?
RW: Yes, well all he could do was pull the throttles back or push the throttles forward apart from being spread, spread across the floor. You know, the poor navigators instruments are all over the place. In that respect think of the navigators instruments all over the place my little wireless op oh he was a little terror and my navigator and he were chalk and cheese, vastly different characters and one occasion my navigator asked for a QDM from the wireless operator and Taffy said a very rude word telling him to go away and Alec looked back and found there was Taffy with his radio set, the old 1154 55 bits of the set on the floor trying to repair it and he couldn’t give him a QDM but he said [?] [laughs] so that was the atmosphere but they were a great crew, great crew. But there you are. We pulled ourselves out and we got ourselves out and we got back with having done the crash landing as I say. But the raid that I think affected us more than anything was the Nuremberg raid. The raid on Nuremberg. It was the raid that really should never have happened but we just discovered this afterwards reading books and things the fact that the, the uncertainty in Bomber Command headquarters about whether it should go on or shouldn’t go.
CB: It was to do with the fog, wasn’t it?
RW: Pardon?
CB: It was to do with the fog.
RW: Yeah. Yeah, well apparently there was a front coming up over Germany and the idea was that the route was going to be clear and the target was going to be er the route was going to be cloud covered and the target was going to be clear but the movement of the front wasn’t right and of course the, all the route was clear and the cloud over the target and the winds were wrong, all wrong.
CB: Oh.
RW: And all the hundred odd mile winds and this sort of thing were going on and nearly all in the wrong direction. Even the pathfinders, even the wind finders didn’t get the right places for the right system for the wind and so some of the pathfinders were marking Schweinfurt and different targets and Alec, my navigator, who was insistent on being a very precise little man he got us to the target and we actually flew to the target but by the time we were flying out the operation was delayed. Put back, put back and put back twice. So, we were going to bomb about five past twelve sort of thing like this. And we went off, a little bit in daylight taking off and we got, when we got to the French German border we’d seen sixteen aircraft shot down and to do what you used to do you used to report this to the navigator and he’d log it so they could get a record of where the aircraft went down and when he got to sixteen Alec said, ‘I don’t want to hear any more.’ So, we didn’t tell him anymore but we saw no end of stuff and coming across we were supposed to come south of the Ruhr which we did but a lot of people went straight over the top of the Ruhr and the carnage there. And just on the controversial long leg, what they called the long leg which was from the French from France right across to northern, north of the target, north of Nuremberg there was a two hundred and sixty five mile leg which was unusual ‘cause you usually had diversions and that sort of thing and it just so happened that there were two German night fighter beacons on the route Ider and Otto and it just so happened that their night fighters were assembling at the beacons all at the right time for them. So, there we were, we were ploughing along. We were very, very fortunate. We managed to keep out of trouble. We did have trouble but nothing drastic so we carried on and what we saw over the beacons was quite considerable. Lots of aircraft being shot at. We could see the tracers, German tracers going on, and this was a raid where the Germans first used the system called schragemusik whereby instead of having guns firing directly at the rear gunner they knew that there was no ventral armament on the Lancaster at all so this very astute German chap said, ‘Well, let’s have the guns pointing upwards,’ so they had two 20mm cannons pointing up, about sixty degrees. So, they used to fly underneath you and you knew nothing. You didn’t know they were there at all until the shells started to fly past. We, we were lucky. On one occasion we saw the shells coming upwards to us just on our starboard side so we managed to take evasive action but we didn’t know what it was, we didn’t know why they were coming up that way until many years later when we discovered they had this schragemusik and one German shot down forty two aircraft using that equipment. He did five in one night which was amazing so this added to the attrition rate of the raid at all. We were very, very fortunate. Alec, the navigation was spot on and we passed a target which we saw in the distance Schweinfurt which was being bombed which we didn’t know it was Schweinfurt then but we said, Alec said, ‘That can’t be right.’ So we carried on and actually arrived at Nuremberg which was cloud covered and we just, Norman had just happened to see a break in the little clouds so we bombed there. I think we bombed Nuremberg. We were certainly over Nuremberg. Whether we actually bombed Nuremberg you can’t really say because we couldn’t take a photograph because of the photoflood. It wouldn’t show anything on the photo apart from cloud but there was a massive explosion on our, on our left hand side which apparently somebody had hit a munition train just outside Nuremberg and this had this enormous explosion so we knew something had happened. And of course we had to come back when it was a long leg. There was some fighter activity on the way back but it was such and the lads when they used to go on these raids the lads, I didn’t get involved but the lads used to have a kitty. They put some pennies in this kitty and the ones who guessed the most number of aircraft shot down or most accurate number of aircraft shot down got the kitty and Curly my engineer got it that night because he said a hundred. He estimated a hundred and when we got back for debriefing the intelligence people were very sceptical about the thing. Oh it couldn’t have happened no its near going to happen but when our squadron records came in we sent twenty six aircraft that night and we lost seven which was nearly a third of the squadron that night. Sixty people, you know, all gone that night and it left it was really strange. It was. We were like zombies, you know. We just walked around. Not upset. Just mind blown and we went back we couldn’t sleep. We just walked around until daylight and the squadron didn’t operate for a little while after that. But what happened with the, when we got back used to go for a flying meal when we, when we got back and when we got back to the mess there were no waitresses there at all. All the meals were left on the counter and a little notice on the wall saying, ‘Please help yourselves.’ And all these girls had gone into the restroom and they were crying their eyes out ‘cause of the losses on the squadron. You know, they really felt the effect of that. Moreso than we did in many respects. Norman, my bomb aimer, who was always girl mad for the ladies wanted to go and console them but the WAAF officers said. ‘No. Leave them to it.’ And so we had to help ourselves to the meal and this was the atmospheres they had on the squadrons you know. The thoughts of the people working. When you think of a squadron where you’ve got something like anything a hundred and eighty, two hundred aircrew you’ve got something like two thousand, two and a half thousand ground staff who without them we couldn’t have kept flying, you know. So they, and they don’t get the credit that they justly deserve and our ground crew were wonderful. Little Willy [Severn] and Nobby Burke and they were part of the aircraft, they were part of the aircrew and I kept in touch with them for many, many years until he died just a few years ago at the age of ninety seven.
CB: Really.
RW: Lived up in Glasgow and Perth, near Perth and when I visited him and his lovely wife Annie he used to sit in his room all by himself just looking out the window and saying, ‘Aye. Och aye. Aye. Och aye,’ and remembering all the things that were going on. We were very, very fortunate on the squadron he was on the squadron for many, many months. He joined the squadron up at Holme on Spalding Moor and he only ever lost two aircraft so we so lucky to be with him. Mind you, we lost an aircraft for him which was, didn’t go down very well. So, but again, again these characters you’d come back with holes and bits missing and they’d be waiting for you when you got back and they’d get these things sorted out and repaired more or less for the, for the next night so, in all sorts of weathers. The, being a dispersed camp we didn’t have any hangars to work in. All the aircraft were stacked outside and, you know, in February ‘44 we had something like three foot of snow and sixteen foot snowdrifts and the station was cut off completely and these lads were working on the aircraft changing plugs, doing servicing on the aircraft. They worked, Willy said they worked in pairs. When one was working and his hands got frozen he went and warmed up. Another chap took over so they were working outside in all these sorts of conditions.
CB: There were hangars but they couldn’t put the aircraft in was it?
RW: Well, there were hangars when they had major things to do. Engine changes -
CB: Right.
RW: And these sort of things. They would take them in for major servicing. [Eight star] servicing, for a major servicing but apart from that they were just kept outside in the cold and the wet and in the war it could be anything.
CB: I’m going to stop there again because we are going to have a cup of tea.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Thank you.
RW: Oh lovely.
[pause]
CB: Right, so we’re back on again now.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And we’re just doing the -
RW: You finished the -
CB: Rerun of the Mailly but I think it’s useful because I’ve heard this, somebody mentioned before.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Of the attrition -
RW: Yeah.
CB: And because of the milling around -
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So why was it that the marking was so delayed causing the traffic jam?
RW: Well the again Cheshire was a brilliant pilot and a brilliant pathfinder and he was a perfectionist and again, forgive me if I’ve mentioned but the briefing that we had as the ordinary aircrew main force was to be very precise with the bombing because we didn’t want to hit any of the village. The village next door to the target. And he was being the same and he wasn’t satisfied with the markers that were going down and he said, ‘Well, don’t come in. We’re remarking.’ So he was re-marking the target to get in to the correct position for, for the [Mailly] raid and because of this it was delaying. It was, saying delayed you’re only talking about minutes. You’re not talking about hours, you know, but five minutes, ten minutes. An awful lot can happen in five, ten minutes and he was waiting until the markers got, really got them organised because there were two marking spots. One east and one west. One on the railway. One on the barracks because it was timed for midnight because this was the time when the people were coming back to their billets and were getting their, and they [wanted to kill the] troops.
CB: Yeah, of course.
RW: Troop concentrations so he was being as perfect as he possibly could and in consequence with the markers not being as accurate as he liked he stopped it and said we’ll remark again.
CB: Because it’s a French target?
RW: Because, well, not so much a French target. The target which was right next door to the French village.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And he didn’t want to kill -
CB: That’s what I meant. Yes.
RW: Didn’t want to kill, bomb the village. So, we were briefed and presumably they must have been briefed as well to be as perfect as they possibly could on their marking so as not to kill French people.
CB: Course.
RW: So this, and this came to light too, many, many years later here, by a little girl who was doing her degree at the Sorbonne in Paris relating to British and American efforts during the war and she came here and interviewed me here and stopped here for quite a little while and had a little chat about the Mailly raid and this sort of thing and she was quite concerned, you know. She was only what twenty, twenty one year old but she was only concerned about the fact that that attitude was taken to stop people, French people being killed. She got a first degree anyway which was rather nice.
CB: You obviously briefed her well.
RW: Yes, we still send Christmas cards to each other. I haven’t seen her for years and years and years. I wonder what she is doing now, whether she is married or what. But she was a nice little girl and I’ve got some pictures of her somewhere in there.
CB: Yeah.
RW: So, yes, so the, that was the result of the Mailly raid and the Nuremberg of course, raid, as well of course had although we’d had a lot of damage on other raids and quite traumatic things on other raids the Nuremberg raid left the biggest scar than any, mental scars was far, far greater than the physical scar and that really got sunk home when you realise what the attrition rates was. And the reports I think say there was ninety six, ninety seven aircraft shot down over the target but there were over a hundred wrecked completed so there must have been about a hundred and sixteen, a hundred and twenty aircraft written off altogether with all those, not all those aircrew but I think there was something like five hundred and sixty five, five hundred and five hundred and fifty aircrew killed that night, one night. The Nuremberg raid. And there were more aircrew killed on that one night then there was in the whole of the month of the Battle of Britain, which, you can’t compare the sort of flying that we were doing but the figures are quite remarkable when you think of what was going on. But being thickies as we were we knew it went on and we didn’t realise the implications of what was going on. We just got on with and had to do a job. But again, we had the trip, we had a little experience which was a trip to Munich. We were briefed for nine hours twenty five minutes petrol and we were given nine hours forty odd minutes petrol to fly on with instructions to land in the south of England if we had problems with getting back with the fuel consumption and it was again the weather wasn’t as forecast so we chugged off to Munich. Rather a long haul. A very long haul. Beautiful scenery over the Alps. We cross the Alps three times it was wonderful. Twice because it was twice the target and coming back we had problems. We lost part of a port wing, part of the leading edge of the port wing, we lost instruments, lost the pitot heads so that caused us little problems. Not exactly flying by the seat of our pants but -
CB: But you had no air speed indicator.
RW: So we were chugging back and as we say the leading edge of the port wing had disappeared somewhere and we’d had icing on the props. That was the amazing, we used to get icing on the propellers. And these were flying, the icing used to fly off and rattle against the side of the aircraft. It was just like flak for hitting the side of the aircraft and I’ve still got a bit of flak that came into my aeroplane. It’s on the table over there. Yes, so coming back it took a lot, lot longer than we anticipated and we were rather slow coming back to the extent that we were coming back over France in daylight and we were getting halfway across France and we saw these two little specks appearing flashing towards us and, ‘Oh Christ, what’s this going on?’ A couple of spitfires. They had been sent out to escort us back. So we were escorted back but with the engineers and navigation and fuel conservation we got back to Ludford having flown for ten and a quarter hours.
CB: Wow.
RW: But again the ground crew had that aircraft ready again for the next night which is, which is, what they get up to is wonderful. So they’re the sort of things that happened on raids. Another story, we came over Stettin one night. We lost two engines, two starboard engines. We managed to get one going half again so we came back from Stettin on two and a half engines.
CB: Was that flak damage?
RW: Yeah. Yeah. That was flak damage yes and when we got back Curly, he was a dreadful tease, he used to tease the WAAFs dreadfully and this poor little girl he teased her so much that when he was having his meal, operational meal she said, ‘I’m not going to serve you with your meal, cheeky bugger. I’m not going to serve your meal.’ He did get his meal of course but she wouldn’t serve him. And coming back off this trip we were so late we were, everybody, the committee of adjustment had been in and started to take our kit away. They didn’t think we were coming back but when we got back we got to the mess and this poor little kid was in tears, ‘Oh I shall never do that again.’ This was the atmosphere of these kids and girls. Wonderful. They were the sorts of things that happened. My last, very last operation was to again a transport plant target which was the original D-Day which was on the 4th 5th of June and like on the briefing we knew we were on the battle order but we had no idea where we were going and when we got out to the dispersal and asked what we were, what the petrol load and bomb load was Willy said, ‘Eeh,’ he said, ‘You’ve got full tanks and overloads and no bombs.’ And you were thinking, ‘Oh God. What’s going on? Are we going to Italy, Russia, whatever.’ No. What was happening we were flying a square circle around the invasion beaches giving false instructions to some of the shipping people imitate a convoy and also reporting on the fighter activity, German fighter activity to report back to help with the invasion and of course the invasion was put back twenty four hours because of the weather. So they took our overload tanks on, put a few bombs on board and we went off and we bombed Sangatte. Didn’t do a very good job obviously. So, that was our very last trip, Sangatte, and when we got back, because of the weather, very adverse weather we were diverted to Faldingworth which is only about thirty odd miles from Ludford, our base and we slept on a chair in the mess for the rest of the night and when we got up in the morning and having breakfast the station commander, Group Captain King arrived and he said, ‘Come on. I’m taking you back.’ I said, ‘Well I’ve got an aeroplane outside you know.’ And he said ‘You’re not touching another aircraft on the squadron. That was your last operation.’ So we just left the aircraft. How they got it back I don’t know but he took us back in his little hut, little, his little van. We went back and that was my last operation and mentioning our attrition rate on the squadron, in early 1944 our attrition rate was something like sixty two percent.
CB: Gee.
RW: Which was, you know, it’s unbelievable when you look.
CB: This is because they were targeted specifically.
RW: Yeah. Targeted. Very vulnerable. A) Because they could home onto our frequencies and B) Because we were on every bombing raid that went out. So there we are. The next morning I had to go and have a little interview with the station commander to give a pat on the back. He was a lovely chap Group Captain King. Curly, my engineer had finished because he’d done an operation with his previous crew he was finished the night before and he’d been out on the booze. Went down in to Ludford on the booze and when I had the interview with Group Captain King the following morning he said, ‘Your bloody crew.’ And, ‘Oh God. What’s going on?’ And he said, ‘Your engineer was down in the pub last night spouting about what he got up to and whatever and there just happened to be an intelligence officer there.’ And he just, no he was just pulling my leg really in a way but he said yes thank you very much for what you’ve done and I was given my green endorsement for the Mailly, for the raid where we had the mid-air collision and he had a curtain covering a chart on the wall which gave the crew statistics on the wall and he pulled the curtain back and he said, ‘There you are. You are the first crew that has finished as a crew for over six months’. Yeah.
CB: Amazing.
RW: And you didn’t even realise then. Appreciate what you -
CB: Yeah.
RW: What the attitude was but it really was remarkable and then of course I wasn’t allowed to touch a Lancaster again ever. Until 1977. Until the 101 squadron had a 60th anniversary of the formation of the squadron and they tried to get, I was asked. Martin Middlebrook was involved and he wrote a book and he was, he used to live not far away and then he was trying to get all of our crew together again and did I know where they were. And I had a few addresses so we managed to find 5 of us and we couldn’t find Taffy, could never find Taffy and we tried to find Taffy and we got in to contact with the people of his uncle who ran a pub and he wouldn’t tell us where he was and we assumed he was either in jail or in hospital but there, he’s still about but he never knew anything about it. But anyway, we had this meeting with five of my crew were there in 1977 in Waddington at 101. The Lancaster was there and at the dinner the previous night the PMC stood up and gave a little chat and said, ‘You’ve got the Lancaster here. It’s had an oil leak it needs an air test in the morning. We’ve got a crew here.’ So we flew in the Battle of Britain Lanc and did about a twenty, twenty five minute air test.
CB: Fantastic.
RW: In the Battle of Britain Lanc which was quite a thrill, quite a thrill.
CB: Amazing.
RW: And it’s wonderful that they’ve kept the thing going.
CB: Yes.
RW: It’s great. So after the war, I stayed in the air force after the war.
CB: Yes excuse me for interrupting but after the ops what did you do then because we’re not at the end of the war?
RW: Oh no. Yes. Yes.
CB: We’re still a year away.
RW: Yes. After the operations, yes normally you were, your crew tended to try and keep as much of the crew together and were posted away and most of the crew were posted to 28 OTU. And I was sent to 82 OTU. I never knew why or found out why. Typing error? Whatever. Anyway, I arrived at 82 OTU which was all Australian station and I was one of the very few Englishmen there as aircrew. One of the only aircrew there as an examiner, screen pilot, and they didn’t think much of this pommie bastard arrived in their midst and it wasn’t exactly a comfortable place to be but I’d only been there a couple of weeks when I had a bit of a problem, a symptom from the flying in the war. I had a perforated ulcer. Again, attributed to stress, whatever. So anyway, I had this haemorrhaging and I went sick, reported to the Australian doc, went sick and he didn’t think much of this whinging pommie bastard so medicine on duty. That was, that was, that was it. We just, and very shortly after that I was posted to Gamston where, which was a Wimpy OTU so I was flying in Wimpies there. Met my first fiancé there which was a lovely little WAAF in the camp. Audrey, Audrey Simms. Again, my luck held out, a lot of luck was involved on the squadron, tremendous lot of luck on the squadron and again my luck held out. My friend, Tommy Thompson, who’d been on operations, same as myself, screened and I was also the sports officer on the squadron and I had to do an air test as well and Tommy said, ‘Well you go and get the sports kit.’ On Wednesday afternoon the whole place shut down in those days for sport so I went to get the sports equipment and Tommy did my air test in a Wimpy and the Wimpy blew up and he was killed. Poor chap. Poor Tommy. And the only way we could recognise him when we found him was his ring on his finger. And he was a Geordie like myself and I was given the task of organising his funeral, went up to his funeral and because he didn’t get married during the war he got married very shortly after the end of his tour. He didn’t get married until after he’d finished his tour and his wife was expecting a baby, lived at Wallsend near Newcastle and of course I had to go to the funeral and there was this poor lass and it was rather sad. Yeah. So, these are the sort of things that happened and the luck you can achieve on these sort of things. So, anyway, because of my sins and flying I was due to go back on a second tour, supposedly on Mosquitoes, in early ‘45 but the attrition rate had dropped considerably at that time and there was a glut of aircrew coming though so they said, ‘Don’t come back on operations.’ So I was sent down to Lulsgate Bottom which was an instructor’s school. So I went down to the instructor’s school at Lulsgate Bottom which is now Bristol airport and I had a nice time down there learning to drink scrumpy which was, which was great. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely place down there. I enjoyed it very much. Again had little problems with the instructing. Flying with the instructor one night and the radial engine, the pot burst and the pistons were coming out through the through the canopy around the engine. So we had a little single engine landing there but that was fine. I ended up there and became an instructor. So the instructing I was sent to be a place called Desborough. I had the choice of going to Carlisle or Northampton so I chose Desborough and I was stationed there as a screen pilot and flying instructor, Wimpies. This story extends a little bit. A very good friend of mine who became my first fiancé her friend she was stationed, became stationed at Wyton, Cambridge and my friend and I used to go and visit her and he, Jock Murray, he was a married man. He had a girlfriend as well, a WAAF at Wyton so we used to go and stay at the George hotel at Huntingdon when she was there but sadly we were sitting on the banks of the river at Earith. I’d already bought the engagement ring and whatever and she said, ‘I’m sorry but that’s it’ and she went off with a married pilot on Wyton, pilot and that was it. I came back to Desborough rather tail, my tail between my legs sort of thing and my squadron commander, he knew what the situation, we were very good friends and he knew what was going on and one of the pilots who had been at Wyton on big stuff he was converting on to Dakotas and that’s what we were doing in Desborough and he came to Desborough to be converted on to Dakotas. He didn’t, I knew him but he didn’t know me and my flight commander, Lofty [Loader] he said, ‘You have him as a pupil.’ So I had this poor soul as a pupil. All the first details in the morning and all the last details at night. He complained to the boss and he said, ‘Nothing to do with me. Get on with it.’ But he was brilliant. He was a good pilot but he didn’t know anything about that at all. And again strange things happened at Desborough. When I was there another crew came through at, which er, yes this other crew came through whereby the pilot had a wireless operator who eventually joined the company I joined after, after the war as a wireless operator and I had to screen the crew on a cross country out over Wales. A claggy night. Not a very nice night at all and his skipper didn’t say, ‘I don’t think we ought to go. The weather.’ ‘Oh it’s all right,’ Well the weather we flew in the war we flew in all sorts of weather. They said, ‘Oh no it’s alright Alfie,’ So, off we went and coming back they asked to get a QDM and he couldn’t on his little set. He couldn’t get a QDM and fortunately I had been to the Empire Radio School and, and, and knew a little about electrics so I went back, got this bearing, give it to the skipper and when we let down there was Desborough the identification lights DE flashing, I said, ‘There you are. That’s how it’s done.’ And I had to give this wireless operator an adverse, not exactly an adverse report but not a very favourable one. He eventually became a director of the company I was working for and he didn’t, he didn’t, he didn’t like me very much at all because I was one of the lower minions in the works and he was a director of purchasing. Not a nice, not a very nice chap. Anyway, there we are so that was, that was little situation but Desborough from there I went and was posted to Transport Command, had to go into Transport Command and there I was flying Dakotas and doing mainly conversion work flying Dakotas. I had some very nice jobs to do and stationed at Oakington. This was in 1947 when I first went to work in Oakington and I was the flying wing training officer for four squadrons 10, 27, 30 and 46 squadrons and this was early ‘48 when the thought of the airlift came into being and this was quite an amazing situation because the squadron as I say had this four, the unit had the four squadrons on board and I was working with all the four squadrons. Then when you are going on the airlift all the aircrew had to be completely categorised and had to have a current incident rating so I was kept very, very busy. One night well one month one day I did something like ten and a half hours flying testing just to get them ready to go on the airlift. So, there we went and when we got them all, got them all off we, the WingCo said, ‘Right have a few days left, go on the airlift for a month and have a rest.’ So that was fine so I thought now do I go home and see my mum and dad or do I go and see my fiancé. I was getting married in October. And I said, ‘Hmmn I’ll go and see my fiancé,’ which I obviously did. Went back on the airlift and when I got to [Rumsdorf] which we were then I went to see the flight commander chappie in charge of the flying and I said, ‘Where do I go for briefing?’ And he said, ‘You don’t.’ He gave me a piece of, a sheet of A4, ten sheets of A4 with all the instructions on and said, ‘Go away and read those, inwardly digest. You’re flying in the morning.’ And that was it. That was it. And it was strange how the flying did, is it alright talking about the airlift?
CB: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.
RW: Yeah, because this is forty, a long time after the war but there we are. How the airlift came about was the fact that the Russians had taken over Berlin and they wouldn’t allow any people into Berlin for about eight weeks. So nobody was going in and they really split Berlin in half. They took over the east sector but they had to keep the airlift going, had to keep the situation going because the embassies of the French, British and American embassies there so they had to keep flying going in. They couldn’t stop the flying but they could affect the roads. There were originally six corridors going in but the Russians said you don’t need six. So they cut out, cut the north one out and the south one out and the east one out so they only had three corridors going in. The Americans were doing the, the southern one and we were doing the north one and we all came out on the centre one. But when they started the airlift all this happened in a very, very short period of time. The Americans, a chap called Lucius Clay was in charge of the system flying then in Berlin and he called every possible aircraft back from the states, even from Alaska, to come down to [?] which was the southern part of Germany and, to organise the thing properly he asked a chap called [Tupper, Tupper?] who was in charge of the Burma hump flying over the hump in Burma and he was asked to organise that. The first trip he went on, this was the very, very beginning all, all the Americans were there first and they’d gone off he went off on one of these very first trips and when he got to, got to Berlin there they were going to land at Tempelhof. He found there were aircraft stacked from five hundred feet to five thousand feet and everybody, all the Americans, were clamouring like mad to get permission to land and there was very little organisation at all. Two aircraft, two of the American aircraft had crashed on the runway. One crashed on the runway and was being repaired, and went on the fire and the other crashed and gone over the end of the runway. Nobody was killed but [Tupper Tupper] realised what was going on. He sent all the aircraft back to base even with their loads and got landed himself at Gatow at er [Wunsdorf] and at Tempelhof, landed at Tempelhof and he wrote out orders and all regulations for all flying on the Berlin airlift. Each aircraft had a different speed, different height to fly and all, all went, all went off and when we were at [Wunsdorf] at the time and when you went off you flew to a beacon north of Ber, we flew to a beacon at [?] just north of Berlin where you, when you arrive there you gave instructions, or you were given instructions of how to land and what your load off and we flew in everything. Literally everything in to Berlin because when the Russians took over they closed their frontier and they closed the, all the rail, road and water transport into Berlin and there was something like two million two hundred thousand West Berliners with twenty seven days rations of everything they’d left and they’d taken the generators from the power stations away, they’d taken the gas and that was all rationed and these poor Berliners were left with twenty seven days of nothing. I was very fortunate. I gave a little talk to some aircrew at Leamington and one of the chaps brought along a German lady who had been a little girl, a young little at the time the Russians took over and she was, she spoke English quite well but a very, very strong German accent and she of course she was quite an elderly lady then and she said she and her elder sister, she was young teenager and her sister was seventeen, eighteen and they were walking through Berlin and the Russians came along, a group of Russians came along and they herded all the girls and women they could possibly find into this building. The older sister knew what was going to happen and she hid this young lady, was a young lady, hid her and all the rest were gang raped for the rest of the day and she said, she was telling me that her sister never ever spoke of that again. She couldn’t talk about it. There was something like two million women raped. Two thousand committed suicide. You know, and these figures you know and the Berliners were so appreciative of what we did. We literally flew in everything. Naughty story. When we were on taking a few coal fuel and flour everything in and when you got to the beacon as I say you had to call to get landing instructions and declare what your load was so you could be directed to the correct unloading bay when you landed and the Germans were doing this and they could turn an aircraft around in eight minutes you know. Incredible. So there we were we were going towards this beacon and I said to the wireless op cause I didn’t have a crew I had the nav leader and the signals and I said to Jacko, ‘Call up and get us instructions.’ So he gave instructions and they said, ‘What is your load?’ And he said, ‘Medical supplies. Mainly manhole covers,’ and they were all sanitary towels. It didn’t end there because when we landed we were directed to the heavy unloading bay and we weren’t exactly flavour of the month. We didn’t half get a rocket but there again when you were flying in there was no question of doing an overshoot and going around again. If you couldn’t land you just had to go back to base and start again.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And when you were there they had all your aircraft lined up. Your day was split into three eight hour shifts and you were doing as many raids, as many sorties as you could in eight hours and then you had the next 8 hours off and then you flew in the next 8 hours and this went on seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Day and night. There was only one day it never happened and that was through extensive fog. So, and when the aircraft were lined up the ground crew had to do a pre-flight test on every aircraft and part of their equipment the wireless operators, wireless, ground wireless operators were a pair of bellows and when they got on the aircraft they used the bellows to blow this, the flour and coal dust off the instruments so they could check them. So this was the sort of thing that was going on. When we were at [Rumsdorf] they also had the York there and the payload of the York was something like what fifteen thousand pounds and the Dakota’s about seven and a half and one of our skippers said, Flight Lieutenant Sheehan, he went off in the Dakota and he said, ‘It’s like a brick. It’s like flying a brick.’ And he had an awful job getting it off the ground, an awful job getting it there, an awful job landing it and when they landed it they found they’d put a York load on the Dakota so he was flying at double his all up weight.
CB: Gee.
RW: And it says a lot for the skipper and the aircraft you know.
CB: Absolutely.
RW: You know, these sort of things went on. Amazing. But that was a long time after, after the squadron. And on the squadron looking back and talking to people on the squadron about the squadron about the air force in general they said, ‘Well you know in our group, in one group we were losing seventy aircraft a month.’ Every Bomber Command station lost nine hundred aircrew. You know, it’s amazing the figures that went on like that and a gentleman did some statistics working out how it affected a hundred air crew and of the hundred aircrew fifty one were killed. Twelve were shot down and badly injured, five were badly injured so they couldn’t fly again, three were, so three were killed on landings back at base, twelve became prisoners of war and one escaped to come back and of the remaining of that hundred aircrew only twenty four remained. Nearly all with some medical problem afterwards which, is you know, is -, I had my share. The sort of things that happened they said personally the sort of things that happened to me afterwards apart from this ulcer which affected me for most of my life until I was here at Desborough, at er Kenilworth when I moved in here and one night I had a massive haemorrhage. I couldn’t get upstairs and the doc came and it was a peculiar system he had. I was not allowed food, I wasn’t allowed to get out of bed, I wasn’t allowed to do anything with work and I lived on an ounce of milk and water for six weeks. Couldn’t do anything and I remember sitting down where we are now sitting now watching the television, watching the cricket with the doctor, chatting about what was going on and it was amazing. In consequence I can eat anything, anything at all doesn’t bother me but alcohol doesn’t like me. I can drink it but I can enjoy it for about a week afterwards so you know I don’t drink very much now. I’ve had my share. But this is the sort of thing that happened and what still happens now. One operation we were on going on to the Ruhr and the Ruhr, the old Happy Valley and we were approaching the Ruhr and it really it looked deadly and the flak, there was an old saying, the flak was so thick you could get out and walk on it and it was like that searchlights, fighters going on and the first time I ever experienced terror and it was most peculiar. I’d heard about it but I’d never experienced it and I literally was shaking and really I couldn’t do what I was supposed to do so I dropped my seat so I couldn’t see outside and funnily enough I said a little prayer that I hadn’t said since I was about six years old. Mum and dad used to sit by the side of my bed and say this little prayer which ended up, ‘If I die before I wake I pray the lord my soul will take.’ Why I said it I don’t know, no idea but I said this little prayer and the terror disappeared and I raised my seat and I could just carry on. You’re still frightened of course but all the terror disappeared. And we had similar situations again afterwards but no terror so whether the power of prayer you know whether this happens or not. Some of the lads we used to take the mickey a bit ‘cause they used to kneel down by their beds and say their prayers or kneel down by the aircraft before they got on and said their prayers and thought they were a bit sissy until you had this sort of experience yourself and then you realise there’s something in it. It’s all, I’m sure it was all mental you know. Some of these sort of things happened. When I laid my head down on the pillow even now, not every, if I’ve been reading a books like some of the air force books and service books that come out now, if I’ve been reading these books about aeroplanes and I put my head down on the pillow I can see flak bursting and little sparks flying about. It doesn’t affect me. I’m fine. No problem at all and this sort of thing, you know, just reminds you of the old days and now talking about it so much now it’s almost like a myth, you know. As if you’re telling fairy stories. Did I really do it, you know but yes it does once you’ve experienced those sorts of things you never forget them. They’re always there. And some, some fixed more than others. We had one navigator who, they were badly shot up and some of the, a lot of the crew were injured. The aircraft was on fire and he got out of his seat to walk back to the, the aircraft was still flying, he walked to the back of the aircraft to jump out the back. No parachute. Some of the crew stopped him and said, ‘No. Don’t.’ He couldn’t talk. He couldn’t speak. He was just a zombie completely. Couldn’t speak and when he got back, they got back alright he never spoke. Never spoke at all. Went to the sick quarters for a couple of weeks. Never spoke, could understand a thing and he was sent to the service hospital at Matlock, the psychological hospital at Matlock and he was there for several, a couple of weeks and he never spoke until one of the nurses dropped an instruments in a tin tray and he woke up. He said, ‘Oh Christ, they’re on fire. They’re on fire.’ And he got his speech back again. He was invalided out of the service as you know unfit for flying. He was alright but that experience he had of these weeks of not talking you know and this is the sort of thing that happened to these sort of folks and, you know, when you think of the experiences you had and how bloody lucky you’d been all these whiles. And, your luck. Yes, I think you bought yourself your own luck to a certain extent. In my crew, were such that although vastly different characters, we were all great comrades and great friends. Great friends. And you know this helped enormously the operational flying, in my instructing and examining after the war when Oakington was closed down and all the four squadrons dispersed 30 squadron was posted to Abingdon and having, me being flying wing training, I thought I was out of a job. 30 squadron had taken over a VIP element from 24 squadron and for my sins I was posted to 30 squadron at Abingdon to become the training officer on 30 squadron and to get our qualifications, to get my, I had to go to Central Flying School to be examined and that was quite the thing. The fact that I had an instrument rating and the fact that I had done something like fifteen hundred hours instrument flying I was allocated a master green instrument rating and I became examiner and when I went down to the Central Flying School to become an examiner and a tester, an instructor, the instructor there, Flight Lieutenant Walker, a lovely man, when we finished the [CGI], said ‘There is a book. Take it away. Read the chapters about training and it’s all about what you learn about.’ And it was a book called the “Psychological Disorders of Flying Personnel” and the chapter on training illustrated the fact that you know even experienced people when being examined had a little bit of panic. It’s a bit of the white coat syndrome of the doctor with his stethoscope and things and you couldn’t really operate as you normally could and this was a chapter about that sort of thing. And this psychological business he gave me this book to take back home. And when I got back of course I used to examine all the crews but each crew had to be examined completely once a month. They had to do certain training exercises. One per month and the VIP pilots had to do the same as well but the VIP pilots were like a class apart. They wouldn’t have a, they insisted on having a separate crew room from us roughies and strange things happened with them. One occasion one of the pilots a chap called Van Reinfeld had to do a VIP trip the following day and he hadn’t done a little night, night flying exercise and I said, ‘Well it’s alright. I’ve got a spare navigator. You can do your little trip tonight. I’ll put you on early, you’ll be alright for tomorrow.’ And he said, ‘Well I can’t do it.’ He says, ‘My navigator has gone in to Abingdon and I don’t know where he is.’ I said, ‘I’ve got a spare navigator. It’s alright. It’s only a training trip. It’s not a VIP trip.’ And this chap, the replacement, a chap called Baxter who was a coloured boy wouldn’t fly with him. Refused to fly with him and I said, ‘Well you don’t, if you don’t fly with him you don’t get your trip tomorrow.’ He went to see Squadron Leader Reese the squadron commander and he said, ‘It’s nothing to do with me it’s to do with the training.’ And he went back and I said, ‘Well if you don’t do it. You don’t fly.’ And he went into Abingdon and scoured all the clubs and pubs, found his navigator, came back, flew late in the morning, early in the morning the next day and went off to do his trip the next day and that’s the sort of atmosphere they were. And the principal job of the Transport Command at 30 squadron were again, like all transport was glider towing and paratrooping and there was a big operation called Operation Longstop which was going on at Old Sarum and all the crews had to go down and join in the exercise and of course every pilot had to have an aeroplane. There wasn’t enough aeroplanes to go around and I was given an aeroplane and a pilot to fly with me who was a VIP pilot called [Ria.] He said, ‘I’m a VIP pilot. I don’t fly second dicky.’ And he wouldn’t fly. Refused to fly with me. Again, he saw the flight commander down at Old Sarum and the boss said. ‘Well if you don’t fly you don’t fly at all. Go back to base. Get back to base.’ He sent him back to base and these sort of characters they were an elite apart, you know. Brilliant fliers no doubt about it brilliant fliers and as I say we had to go down to Central Flying School to be examined and when you’re examined if anything went wrong and you didn’t fail any one part of the exercise two of the exams you had to write, reply a hundred percent. Safety and regulations, these sort of things and when you were, one of the exercises you had it do you were given all the met readings from various stations and you had to plot a synoptic chart and give a forecast for the next day, until midnight the next day, which I did and I said possibly get some rain by lunchtime tomorrow and whatever down the south of England and he called a Met man in and he said, ‘Oh that’s not going to happen. That’ll never happen.’ So I didn’t pass that exam so I had to go back, wait another month before I was going to be examined again. Blow me, the next day it started to rain so I rang up old Walker at Central Flying School and said, ‘Have you looked out the window?’ And he said, ‘You jammy bugger,’ he said, ‘I’ll put it in the post.’ So it was a great atmosphere. A wonderful atmosphere and 30 squadron had a wonderful atmosphere. Still has now. Still does wonderful work now. But the flying it left a great character in my life but I was married by then of course and we had a wonderful life with my wife in peacetime air force. Sadly, she became terribly ill when we were at Oakington and she started having terrible haemorrhages and this sort of thing and the, our local doc said, ‘You’d better take her home’ so we took her to her home in Desborough near Kettering and my mother who was a state certified midwife, she’d nursed all her life said, ‘You know the prognosis of this isn’t very great,’ you know and discovered that she had what they called a [? deformed] mole which is a pregnancy like a bunch of grapes and indicative of cancer. And they did scrapes they didn’t do scrapes in those days but they couldn’t find it and it was the cancer was deep seated in the womb and my mum said, you know ‘She can’t live very long.’ She was only about six months, nine months perhaps at the most so I resigned my commission to come out to look after her. Haven’t been, my last posting just about this the time this happened found was AOC far east to go VIP pilot, the AOC in the far east which I had to keep delaying, delaying, delaying because of Pat’s illness and eventually that was cancelled completely so I didn’t go. So, I resigned to come out on the condition that I renewed my qualifications every year and stayed on the reserve until I was, 1960 um and came out and poor old Pat died about ten months afterwards and with my lack of education I couldn’t get a grant to do any, I was hoping for a grant to go teaching but I couldn’t get a grant because I had no certificates or educational certificates. Fortunately, Pat, my wife’s father owned a factory. A packaging factory. So he said, ‘Come and work for me.’ So I went and worked in his factory on the marketing and sales. I can say for twenty seven years I travelled in cardboard boxes which was very kind of him. I got along very well with the old man. He was quite an eminent military man himself. Thinking of that sort of thing when I was at Abingdon, Oakington, I was going to get married and I was told I had to get permission to get married otherwise I wouldn’t get my marriage allowance ‘cause I was a little bit too young. So I was told I had to have an interview with the station commander which a chap called group captain [Byte Seagal] so I went and had an interview with him and my dad because of his health couldn’t do any serious work and he used to work for the Coop looking after the horses for the Coop stables so when we went for the interview with group captain [Byte Seagall], a peacetime group captain trying to get everything back to a peacetime protocol he said, ‘Who are you marrying?’ I said, ‘Well, Pat.’ ‘What does she do?’ And I said, ‘Well she does typing and bit of filing in an office.’ ‘Oh that’s interesting.’ ‘What does your father do?’ And I said, ‘He looks after horses.’ He said, ‘Newmarket?’ I said, ‘No. Coop.’ And this didn’t go down very well at all. And he said, ‘What about your father in law then?’ And I said, ‘Well he was colonel in chief of the Northamptonshire regiment. He got the MC in Gallipoli.’ ‘Ah now isn’t that interesting.’ I said. ‘My mother, my dad was in the navy. He got the DSM in the navy. My mother got the Royal Red Cross.’ ‘Now isn’t that interesting.’ Yes, I can get married. So I got permission to get married. And they were trying to get things back to peacetime protocol but after the war people like myself were asked to go up to Cranwell which was a training, a major training school then for aircrew and just to meet the people, not to meet, just to chat to the students and pupils and met one young man called, oh dear [pause] His dad was the president of the Nuremberg raids. Oh, what did they call him? Anyway, he was, he was his dad was this very eminent gentleman. Martin, [pause] oh dear, old age and memory don’t go very well together. Anyway, this gentleman he was on the Nuremberg trials. He organised the Nuremberg trials for the post war Germans and his son was on the Cranwell course and he eventually came down to 30 squadron and I said to him, you know, ‘What’s the last thing they taught you at Cranwell then?’ And they said, he said, ‘Don’t get associated with wartime commissioned officers.’ Because, in February ‘44 the directive came about saying all captains of heavy bombers had to be commissioned and my commissioning interview was with the accountant who gave me a cheque for ninety quid to go and buy a uniform with. Yeah. What do they call the chappie on the Nuremberg trials? Very eminent man. Very eminent barrister.
CB: Yeah. I can’t remember.
RW: Pardon?
CB: I can’t remember.
RW: No. Can’t remember. Anyway Martin didn’t like this system in the air force at all so he resigned and came out. But that was the sort of thing that was going on in those days and I was very, very fortunate to be able to have a job to work. I stayed and played with cardboard boxes. For two years I had to go to Marshals and be re-examined for, just to keep your hand in that all it was part of the condition for resigning. I did that for two years and the first time I went the instructor there said. ‘Well go on and do the exams and, what did you do?’ I told him what I did. ‘Oh,’ he said. ‘Bugger it. Go on. Take a little chipmunk and take off. So I used to fly over Desborough and around the school where I was teaching and [laughs] no that, and I started learning, I taught myself aerobatics because the transport flying which is dead straight and level sort of stuff and I’d never flown aerobatics at all apart from slow rolling the Lancaster. It was great fun. Great fun. But they only did that for two years because they said it’s getting expensive and we’ve got squirty things now and so -
CB: Yeah.
RW: Just keep on the register.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And I was in the reserve until 1960 so really I had a wonderful career.
CB: Yeah, brilliant.
RW: Wonderful -
CB: Can I -
RW: Experiences I’ll never be forgetting and played an awful lot of luck and met some wonderful people and wonderful friends and with my crew when the squadron formed the association from flying together in 1977 the squadron chappie called Goodliffe formed the squadron association and from then on we found all eight of my crew and all eight of us used to meet every year.
CB: Fantastic.
RW: Until 1990 when we all met at Ludford in 1990 and the Coningsby, the Battle of Britain Flight said, ‘Would you come down and do a little exercise down here with a full crew.’ And Tommy, my mid upper gunner, wouldn’t go so we never went and a couple of months later he died so whether he had some sort of premonition, you know.
CB: Extraordinary.
RW: But anyway nevertheless all 7 of used to meet until, and then the rear gunner dies and all eight of us, all six of us used to meet and a couple of years ago my special duty operator died so all five of us -
CB: All five.
RW: Are still round about and very, very different states of health and all creaking a bit. I was being very lucky. I had open heart surgery.
CB: Oh, did you really?
RW: It was only three years ago and got a zip fastener up the front but if it hadn’t have been for again like the services, like with family if it hadn’t have been for family and my mum looking after me with diphtheria when I was a little boy and my daughters and family looking after me afterwards when, when I had when I had the operation for the heart I couldn’t walk, I couldn’t sleep, couldn’t eat and my daughter Catherine who is, she is now the ward manager sister at the coronary care unit at Warwick Hospital she took me into hospital on her day off and did an ECG and a blood test and the cardiologist just happened to be walking past and he said, ‘What are you doing here?’ You know, and he took the blood away and came back and he said your bloods alright but it’s not, you’re not going anywhere. Don’t go home. So within just over a week I’d had open heart surgery.
CB: Gee.
RW: And I was back home again.
CB: Amazing.
RW: Yeah, it’s amazing.
CB: I’m going to stop you there.
RW: Yes, that’s about it I think, Ok.
CB: Because we both need a – [pause] right we’re restarting again after a brief comfort break and the bits I just want to ask you about, Rusty is first of all the ranking system. So you went in as an aircraftsman second class.
RW: I went in as an AC2.
CB: And how did the promotion system work until you were –
RW: Yeah. Well, usually after about six months you were promoted an AC1 and then after another short period of time you became an LAC, leading aircraftman. And I was a leading aircraftman when I went and did my flying in Canada and it was from then after you’d finished and completed your training successfully that was when you were ordered your flying brevvy and you became whatever grant, whatever grade you were going in to. Fortunately, and with a lot of luck involved I became a pilot. And having, became a sergeant pilot. Some, about three or four of the course that we were on we lost about forty percent of the course on washouts. You know, it was incredible because the training was very, very precise. I must say it was very, very good. Looking back it was remarkable. So there I was a sergeant pilot and promotion as an NCO was roughly six months and you got an increase and promotions so by the time I was, got on the squadron I was a sergeant pilot and then I very soon became a flight sergeant pilot and that was in ’43. End of ’43. And in early ‘44 the directive came from the air ministry that all captains of heavy bombers had to be commissioned so I was given the cheque for ninety quid by the accountant and told to go and buy a uniform so there was no formal interview at all. It was just a thing that happened. In consequence, the social class, in a sense, disappeared because there were people commissioned from training and they tended to be a little bit elitist and some of the crews had done previous tours and tended to be all commissioned and usually flight lieutenants and all this sort of thing so they were nearly all a little bit aloof but we were just the roughs. Not like the pathfinders. Gibson and the pathfinder force really didn’t socialise with the NCOs at all. Didn’t speak to them, didn’t talk to them but it wasn’t like that on the squadron. Really, apart from doing your job you were all the same. And the, the, our WingCo was a wonderful man in that respect. He knew everybody’s name on the squadron. Ground crew and air crew. Wonderful man. Old Alexander. Wingco Alexander.
CB: What sort of age was he?
RW: He, he’d be getting on about. He’d be early 30s I think [laughs] so. He died not such a long time ago. A little story about Wingco Alexander which, of course, a little bit about the war. His batman, Ward, a little chap called Ward turned out to be a homosexual and he was sacked from the service because in those days homosexuality was virtually a crime and he was sacked from the service and when I used to go home on leave and my brother was being in the army my mum was nursing a very eminent north country barrister called Lambert, Pop Lambert. Mum used to, got the job to nurse him because she could swear as much to him as he swore at her when she put him to bed and he used to love my, my brother and I and my mum to go down and have dinner with him and it was finger bowls and butlers and things like this so it really was quite out of our class altogether and when we were sitting down having dinner this night and the butler came in with the finger bowls and he looked at me and said, ‘Hello Waughman.’ And I said, ‘My God. Ward. What are you doing here? You were Alexander’s batman.’ And that went on, he went out and Pop said, ‘How the hell do you know him?’ And I said, ‘He was our WingCo’s batman. He was sacked because he was homosexual.’ And the poor soul. Pop gave him the sack a week later. He just wouldn’t have him around and this was the attitude about homosexuality -
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
RW: In those days. The lads used to go out queer bashing. You know.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah. There was no gay business in those days at all, sort of thing. But that’s the sort of thing that happened. So, anyway, I was flying, became pilot officer and on the squadron I became towards the end of my tour I got promotion to flying officer and ended my tour as a flying officer and subsequently with the jobs I got as the training officer, again it was timed promotion really in a way. I became a flight lieutenant and most of the screening and examining and training I did then was as a flight lieutenant until I was posted to Singapore and never got there, flying as a VIP pilot AOC Far East. I never got there. Had I, had I gone I would have been promoted to squadron leader. No. I would have got the rank of squadron leader. Which would be temporary acting unpaid. So when I left that job I reverted to my previous rank again so that would be a rank mainly because you were socialising with VIPs but that never came about. So whether I don’t think I would have advanced very far in the air force at that time because I was a Geordie like, you know from up north, a very uneducated man, and I don’t think I would have advanced too far in the service.
CB: Ok.
RW: Although I got on very, very well with the people.
CB: Yeah.
RW: It was great but I think the social side, the social class system would have meant that I’d perhaps have made wing commander but I don’t think I would have got any great senior rank. Again, partly that’s my thought. Whether it would have happened or not. My navigator, he was an educated lad and very good lad you see he lied about his age to join up, operational at eighteen. He stayed in the air force after the war, did very, very well indeed did all sorts of very important flying. He ended up as a squadron leader and stayed in the air force after the war and he was very well thought of in the service. Most of the other lads left the service. Except Taffy. He stayed in the service. He became, he stayed as a sergeant I think all his life and I think he drank his way through the service but er -
CB: And he was always on the ground.
RW: Always on the ground, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes he did, he did fly a second tour. Some of the crews did second tours. He was on the second tour and he was on the last bombing raid that went to the Nuremberg and the Buchenwald raids. And Manna, Operation Manna. Norman, my bomb aimer, he stayed in the air force. He stayed although he had some elevating jobs he never rose above the rank of flight lieutenant because he was out in Burma and he was on the squadron in Burma. This was very shortly after the end of the war and the war was still going on in Burma and he was duty officer one weekend and the Scotch troop was getting knocked about in the jungle so he laid on a strike which was successful and got back. I think they only lost a couple of blokes which was really remarkable. Got everything back and he had to see the CO the next day who said, ‘You don’t, you didn’t have the authority to lay that on’ and he was court martialled and in the, in the court martialling that was it you know but he went on and he eventually when he got back to the UK, got sent back to the UK and he didn’t have a job and he had a friend who knew somebody who knew somebody and he went to work down at, down in Halfpenny Green down Pershore way working on TSR2 and he did some work on TSR2 and then did an awful lot of flying in Buccaneers, err Buccaneers um Canberra’s flying all over America doing line over mapping and this sort of thing. Got himself an MBE. So Norman who now lives in the tax haven Andorra is MBE DFC AFC, yeah. But lovely guy.
CB: Ok so that’s a good intro thank you -
RW: Yeah.
CB: To the awards.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So how did that come about for you and for him as well? How many of the crew were decorated?
RW: Well the sad thing is I’ve still got it but thinking about the decorations for crews and that sort of thing I’ve still got a got a bit of a conscience about the DFC because at the end of the tour of operations nearly every skipper got a decoration and I got a DFC but the crew didn’t get anything and the crew were doing half the work. They kept me alive, they kept us all alive they were doing exactly the same job as I was doing, under the same circumstances. Same risks. The same with all the Bomber Command crew but none of them got a decoration. My engineer Curly did eventually get a DFM.
CB: On the second tour -
RW: But none of the -
CB: Was it?
RW: None of the crew got any recognition whatsoever I think what Harry did was the rear turret and think what rear gunners did sitting watching shells flying at you having a little 303 gun to fire back at a 20 millimetre shell you know um and the casualty rate for rear gunners was, really was something and there was a lot of decorations which should have been. We had one crew which were very, very badly knocked about and from what I gather afterwards the station commander recommended the skipper for a VC which, and the crew did all sorts of wonderful things the skipper was hit three times and all sorts of things went wrong and got the aircraft back but this was turned down and we gather that the reason was that he wasn’t just getting the crew and the aircraft back he was getting himself back as well. So five of the crew got CGMs that night so the decorations system I’m sure it’s the same in all the wars that a lot of people who deserved them didn’t get them because it was unknown. One, one situation whereby unless an action was seen by an officer it didn’t count.
CB: Right.
RW: So -
CB: So the Queens Gallantry Medal.
RW: Yeah.
CB: The CGM.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Was a pretty good award.
RW: Well it’s the next one down from the VC.
CB: Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. The whole crew got it.
RW: Yeah. Yeah. Five of the crew got it.
CB: Yeah.
RW: So you know the awards system obviously they have to have some rules and regulations, you know. I was told by, the by people afterwards after my crash landing getting the aircraft back the thought was the immediate award of the DFC but that didn’t come about.
CB: So when did it happen?
RW: That was in May, March
CB: When you came to the end of your tour.
RW: Oh, it was the end of the tour.
CB: Was it?
RW: Not at the time. Not immediately at the time. It wasn’t until anyway there we are. My DFC was given to me by the postman and there’s a nice little letter in there from King George saying I’m sorry, implying that he’s too busy too busy to see I’m sending it through the post but thank you very much. So, so that was given to me by the postman.
CB: Extraordinary.
RW: Subsequently, when I got I was very fortunate after the war I was awarded the MBE and -
CB: But you got the AFC. So what was that -
RW: I got the AFC.
CB: So what -
RW: I didn’t get the MBE I got the AFC.
CB: The AFC, yes.
RW: Yes, the AFC.
CB: So what was the circumstance of that?
RW: I’ve no idea. I’ve tried to find out but the only thing I’ve ever, people have been able to say meritorious service but I’ve no idea why. I think it was a brown nose job really you know, being in the right place at the right time. I can just imagine from what I’ve seen afterwards the air ministry would be issued so many medals to be issued to the command. Got down to group. Group allocated the medals out. Group was passed out to stations, stations allocated medals out, passed down to the squadrons and what was left for the squadron they had to find someone to give them to and I think I just happened to be at the right place at the right time. So, no reason why I -
CB: No specific event that you can -
RW: No specific event. Nothing -
CB: No.
RW: At all. No. So, it was again poor luck.
CB: What about this other man you talked about who’d been in your crew before who got DFC, AFC?
RW: Oh, Norman. The bomb aimer.
CB: Yes how did he get those?
RW: Well.
CB: Did he get the DFC at the end of the tour?
RW: Afterwards he, he -
CB: Was he commissioned by then?
RW: He eventually ended up on pathfinders.
CB: Oh right.
RW: Yeah, he did a second tour.
CB: Ahh.
RW: Didn’t do a full second tour but he did a lot of second tour on pathfinders and he got his DFC for that and he got his AFC for what he was doing in research down at Pershore down there and his MBE was for the work he did on TSR2 and the, and the work he was doing with the, with the Canberras.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah and Curly my engineer he eventually got the DFM just after -
CB: On his second tour.
RW: After he left us he got the DFM and he from a very lowly back, we’re all from very lowly backgrounds, working class backgrounds his son Paul was at grammar school and there was a thing, a big trip they were going to do, which he could do which would have affected his career quite considerably from the school and Curly couldn’t afford it so he sold his medal.
CB: Right.
RW: To pay for his son to go through school. His son ended up as a very eminent statistician broadcasting, writing articles, touring the world doing this sort of thing and he still brings Curly to the reunions.
CB: Oh does he? So he feels that’s good value.
RW: Yeah. Yes, Yeah but poor old Curly he missed his medal a lot and a chappie called [?] it’s in there he bought Curlys medal.
CB: Oh.
RW: And there you are. He bought Curly’s medal. He was a medal collector and he also involved with [?] he’s a Frenchman working, working with the [6th airborne div] on the invasion things and he bought Curly’s medal and through the squadron he found out that Curly was on the squadron cause he got in touch trying to find out who’s it was and he invited Curly over for several years, every year to get his medal. Well the first year well he couldn’t get his medals back, well he didn’t, he was allowed to wear it but he very kindly let him wear his medal and showed him where his medal was and that’s the sort of thing, the sort of the lads they were. But -
CB: Can I go back to a particular experience -
RW: Yes.
CB: You describe -
RW: Yes, certainly.
CB: And that was the collision.
RW: Yes.
CB: So you’re on top of another Lancaster.
RW: Yeah. Yes.
CB: What happened to that aircraft?
RW: Well I didn’t see it at all. ‘Cause I was -
CB: No.
RW: A little busy keeping flying but apparently his propellers, as I said, chopped through our, just behind the bomb aimer’s feet and the bombing compartment up front. His mid upper, his canopy over the cockpit carved through our wheels and tore the canopy off.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And his mid upper gunner, his mid-upper turret was torn off as well and the boys said they saw Taffy who was looking out of his little window saw the aircraft falling away with the canopy falling off and the aircraft falling to bits so you can’t imagine what happened to the crew in the cockpit and the mid upper gunner sitting on top of the aircraft and they saw the aircraft falling away with no parachutes coming out. Of course it disappeared in cloud.
CB: Ah.
RW: And we were two thousand feet and then they saw the explosion on the ground.
CB: Oh.
RW: They found out afterwards that it was another Lancaster.
CB: Right.
RW: And they were able to identify what Lancaster it was and they were all killed of course. Unfortunately. How lucky can you be?
CB: Yeah and none of your boys saw it coming because you hadn’t got any view of it of underneath.
RW: No. Well the engineer was standing at his little window on the starboard side said he just saw it as it appeared and he didn’t see it at all.
CB: So you were flying straight and level.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And this came up from underneath you.
RW: Yeah. Hit sort of sideways.
CB: Oh sideways.
RW: Sideways underneath.
CB: Which is why you can’t -
RW: Yeah and that’s why he cut across us and we sat on top of him. And that was, and you never thought about it you never thought about disaster at the time you were thinking preservation.
CB: No.
RW: And keeping the aircraft flying. We’ve got to fly. Yeah. Which fortunately it did.
CB: And a different question each of the crew has a different recollection of what was going on because they had different jobs.
RW: Yeah.
CB: You’ve already mentioned the danger of being the rear gunner.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How many times did your gunners shoot at other aircraft? Attacking aircraft in other words.
RW: In a way not as many as the attacks that we had because the idea was you didn’t use your guns unless you had to because it gave away your position so about what a half a dozen times, perhaps.
CB: Yeah.
RW: On one occasion we in the going over Germany we had [five] fighter attacks almost one after the other and if it hadn’t been for the diligence of the gunners we wouldn’t have escaped out of it, you know.
CB: You did corkscrews to get away from it.
RW: Corkscrewed out of it. And once you’ve started corkscrewing it’s no good, no point flying firing your guns.
CB: No.
RW: What did happen I was very fortunate I flew in both the, two of the aircraft who did the, the ton up aircraft who did over a hundred operations. One was in H How which was one of our squadron aircraft and the reason why I flew it was because our squadron was allocated the first two Rolls Royce turrets with the 2.5 guns in the back instead of the four 303s mainly we were the first one of the earliest ones to get it because of the attrition rate on the squadron we were given this the 2.5 and we were, WingCo asked us, well he didn’t ask us he told us to go on this operation and get into a position where the special duty operator could attract the fighter to us.
CB: Right.
RW: So we could try the guns out so we’re stooging along and there we are and Harry called up, he said, ‘Attack starboard quarter coming up.’ So we waited there and he got, when he got in the position where he pressed the guns, pressed the tits to fire the gun it didn’t operate. It didn’t go and we saw sparks flying past but fortunately there were lots of contrails around about so we nipped into the contrails and got rid, got corkscrewing and got rid of the fighter but when we got back the old boss was a bit concerned.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And he said, ‘We’ve got to have to find out what’s going on here,’ he said. And they discovered that they’d changed the anti-freeze grease on the guns and because of that we were told to go out the next night and try them out the next night. Which we did and unfortunately there were ten tenths cloud all over the place but we fired the guns and they worked alright. So that we flew and that was one of the reasons why we had the .5 guns. Because of the attrition rate on the squadron.
CB: Were they also on the mid upper?
RW: No. No, just the 2.5s in the mid upper gunner.
CB: Yeah.
RW: But again you don’t hear much about the mid upper gunners.
CB: No.
RW: But they were just as vulnerable as the others really. They were attacked from behind.
CB: They were an important lookout.
RW: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We were so lucky the diligence of my crew and we were good pals. It wasn’t the skipper sitting up front dictating things. They were telling you what to do.
CB: Yeah.
RW: You had to make the final decision obviously but you were just a crew.
CB: What was the, what was the signaller doing?
RW: [laughs] As little as possible [laughs] he was a wonderful character, very mischievous and he always swore he was going to come on operations drunk and towards one of our last operations we were in the crew room and we were talking and he crept up behind me and patted me on the shoulder [drunken talk imitation] and I turned around. He disappeared and I turned around and I said, ‘You bugger.’ And he’d left a couple of WAAFs standing behind me. [laughs] This is the sort of character he was.
CB: This is an eighteen year old lad was he?
RW: Nineteen.
CB: Nineteen.
RW: He was nineteen. No. He was twenty.
CB: Oh was he?
RW: Around then yeah and this was the sort of character he was and he used to get bearings when nobody else could and he when the skipper wanted a bearing, a particular bearing, he’d get one and there’s an emergency frequency which you had to keep off and he used to get right on the edge of this frequency and pick up bearings that you weren’t supposed to have.
CB: So in practical terms.
RW: Yes.
CB: He was giving bearings all the time.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Was he?
RW: Yeah and again very different from, very different from the navigator and mischievous little devil and I always remember one of the occasions which we remember very vividly was at Waddington after the war when we had our squadron reunion and we’d all had quite a lot to drink and we were getting back into our taxi and we were going to drop him off at his pub, the Wheatsheaf in Lincoln and on the way back he was relating in his very drunken manner how Norman, my bomb aimer lost his virginity to Luscious Lill in Grimsby and there was a policeman walking past the car and wanted to know why. This was the sort of character he was. He drank like a fish and on one occasion we went into Louth to have drink and they used to run a crew bus to run us into Louth and pick us up at half past eleven when the pubs closed and we were coming back and Taffy disappeared. He didn’t know where it was until we had a call from the police station saying we have a wireless operator from your station. A chap called Arndale. He’s in prison. And what he did, he had a skinful, gone down a lane to have a wee and there just happened to be a policeman there and half wee’d on the policeman so they took him in. We were on operations that, had to be on operations that night so I had to into Louth and pay ten shillings to bail him out from the police station to get him back. This was the sort of, wonderful characters and we used to go down the pub and drink enormously playing Moriarty and again, it was a form of relaxation.
CB: Yes sure.
RW: Getting rid of stress.
CB: Just a couple of things about the flying, excuse me.
RW: Yes that’s -
CB: What were you doing when you weren’t on operations?
RW: Well occasionally you did an air test. And perhaps did a little bit fighter affiliation practice being attacked by a fighter but generally your, you were completely relaxed to do whatever you wanted. There was no, no station duties whatsoever. You’d perhaps go up to flight and see what was going on with the others. Down the pub.
CB: But were you doing bombing practice in The Wash?
RW: Yes, there were -
CB: Were you doing circuits and bumps?
RW: I think, I think it was a place called Wainfleet.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Somewhere about The Wash where we used to do practice bombing little eleven and half pound practice bombs you know, practice bombs. Used to drop those.
CB: What height would you be flying when you dropped those?
RW: Oh about eight, ten thousand feet. You weren’t flying at twenty odd thousand feet.
CB: No.
RW: In those days and yes we used to do little air tests and things.
CB: Cross countries?
RW: Pardon?
CB: Cross country for navigation practice.
RW: Err not so much. You did those when you first got on the squadron and you, when you got the feel of the squadron you did a couple of cross countries then but after that no we didn’t have to do any cross countries at all and your relaxation was really resting and down the boozer, down the pub and I used to get into trouble. When we used to live in a nissen hut, little corrugated iron nissen hut and when the condensation, used to get the condensation inside used to run down the ridges and in the winter used to form icicles.
CB: Cause there’s no insulation.
RW: Yeah. No.
CB: No insulation.
RW: No insulation. No.
CB: No.
RW: And all we had was a pot stove in the middle of the room a little cylindrical pot stove which we used to go and try and rob people of their ration of fuel and burn furniture and all sorts of silly things and of course there were no ablutions or watering inside. The ablutions were outside in another hut with a concrete bench with taps on and that was all you had. It wasn’t a, Wimpy built the station in eighty days completely and there were a main roads. There was a main road into the station, a main road with flights, a perimeter track and a runway and that’s about it. And all the rest we were walking around on grass and mud as a matter of fact being called Ludford Magna they nicknamed the place as Mudford which is a -
CB: It was that bad was it?
RW: It was that bad.
CB: Right.
RW: But it was, basically apart from the stress of what was going on it was a happy station and this was reflected on the senior staff. The group captain and the WingCos in that place.
CB: But with the high attrition rate -
RW: Yeah.
CB: How, the senior officers would get shot down as well.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So how did the replacements work? Would it be somebody from the squadron already or would they post in a squadron leader or wing commander?
RW: I think it depended on who was available. Perhaps one of the flight commanders would be promoted or could be promoted and our flight commander, Squadron Leader Robinson he was a fortnight before he was a flight lieutenant but the flight commander was killed and with rapid promotion he is made squadron leader. So he became a squadron leader and it has happened that when a station commander who’d gone on operations, well WingCo Alexander a wonderful man, he used to come and take on a crew that had just arrive on the squadron. Take them on operations. So if there were lost they’d perhaps try and promote somebody on the squadron, from the flight to become station commander or bring somebody in with experience.
CB: Squadron commander you mean.
RW: Yes, squadron leader.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Bring in one of the senior officers to take over the station which didn’t happen on our lot. I know it did, it has happened but then rapid promotion for whoever is on the flight.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Which Robinson was. He became from the -
CB: Yeah. So -
RW: Yeah so this rapid promotion business was well deserved but Robinson became the, the flight commander when he was twenty five, twenty six. Yeah. Well, look at Gibson. He was twenty six, he was a group captain and the group -
CB: Yeah.
RW: Group captain in the service, yeah.
CB: Well did sometimes the station commanders fly on raids?
RW: Not the station commander. I know some of them did. Ours didn’t. Old Group Captain King. As far as we know he didn’t because we didn’t know everything that was going on but the Wing Commander Alexander who was in charge of all the flying as I say a new crew would come on the squadron and he’d take that squadron, take that crew that night. Normally, he did a second dicky trip which was an experienced to get experience on flying but when we started at the end, end of of ‘43 started the Battle of Berlin when the operations were called Gomorrah which was maximum effort err old Squadron Leader Robinson flight commander called me in and said. ‘Right you’re flying tonight.’ I didn’t get a second dicky trip but thinking of that sort of thing we used to have jinx. People in the squadron. Used to have WAAFs, you know, somebody little transport driver if they’d been out with this particular WAAF nearly everybody who’d been out with her got killed so she became a jinx, you know.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
RW: And we became a jinxed crew.
CB: Yeah.
RW: We took three different pilots on experience operations and all of them were killed.
CB: Were they?
RW: So they wouldn’t send any more people with us.
CB: No.
RW: Yes. Which is remarkable. So these jinx things did happen.
CB: How many hours did you fly in your thirty by the time you’d finished your tour of thirty ops?
RW: Something like a hundred and eighty three. Something like that.
CB: On, on ops.
RW: On ops.
CB: Ok.
RW: Do you want to see my logbook?
CB: I do. Please.
RW: Yes. When –
CB: We’ll do that in a minute but overall how many by the time you left the RAF how many hours had you flown?
RW: Oh that’s getting on a bit. I did something like two and half thousand hours.
CB: Did you really?
RW: Which, when you compare people flying now are talking about thousands of hours. Thirty, forty, fifty thousand hours. No, two and a half thousand hours I ended up with which was quite a long bit for, for the -
CB: When the Canadian Lancaster came over last year -
RW: Yeah.
CB: The senior pilot there, he’s on airlines, had done twenty seven thousand five hundred -
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Hours.
RW: Yeah. Amazing, yeah.
CB: I’m going to stop there for a moment. Thank you.
[Pause]
CB: Right we’re starting again.
RW: Right from the beginning.
CB: And what I’d like to do is to ask Rusty just to talk about the time from his birth really to a point at West Kirby.
RW: Yeah thank you. Gosh. That’s, well at ninety two it’s a long story. No, it’s not really but I was very fortunate in my bringing up. I was born in a place called Shotley Bridge in County Durham and my dad worked as a handyman on a colliery owner’s estate and there I don’t know whether it was because of the situation or what was going on we lived in a tied cottage and I got diphtheria. I was, I had mucous diphtheria quite a chronic illness in those days and my mum who’d been a nurse in a military hospital nursed me at home with that and mum and dad had quite different careers. My dad was in the navy. He was orphaned as a boy, a two year old boy and brought up by an elder sister who when he got a bit older didn’t want them so he was put in the navy in 1905 as a boy entry and he went through and became a naval diver. And my mum who was a nurse in the, a sister, a matron, assistant matron at a military hospital in Darlington. Went through the war and got herself a Royal Red Cross, Associated Red Cross which was one down from the nursing VC which was a considerable award. She was a wonderful lady. And dad with his naval experience on the Q ships got himself a DFM and he is a leading seaman which was rather unusual in those days ‘cause not very many lower rank NCOs, he wasn’t even an NCO, got a decoration. He got a DFM.
CB: A DSM.
RW: Yes a DSM. DSM, yes.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Distinguished Service Medal and he, having been orphaned, he didn’t have a home to go to and my uncle Stanley was in the navy as well and he brought dad home on leave up north to Newcastle and there he met my mum and my auntie and he married my mum which is, which is lovely but because of his health he couldn’t do any really serious work and he used to do handyman work on the colliery owner’s estate and eventually when he moved in to Newcastle he used to do shift work looking after the stable and the horses for the Coop and in those day they had something like four hundred and sixty horses in the stables. And the nostalgic smell of all that leather was, when I used to go to night schools to try and get some education his stables were just a bit up the road and I used to go and meet him at, class would finish at 9 o’clock, the stables used to finish at half nine. I used to go and meet him at the stables and have a cup of tea by the big stove in the kit room. Smelled wonderfully. Wonderful. And then we had to walk home two and a half miles. No question of buses. Walk home. And dad was, really was a very quiet, unassuming man. Mum was a nurse all her life stayed nursing as her career all her life and she really saved my life on more than one occasion. Nursing me at home with diphtheria and typhoid and then the consequence because we, because we lived in, had no inside toilet, it was only a cold tap and no electricity, gas, paraffin lamps. We had communal toilets outside on The Green at the back I obviously picked up the typhoid from there so my mum went out and set them on fire and burned them down. So there we are. I came back to Newcastle and lived in the city for a wee while and then as a young teenager then I got TB, I had a TB [?] and that kept me down very much so and I was in a wheelchair when I was twelve so my mum nursed me at home with the TB and in consequence my health suffered to the extent that I wasn’t allowed to play sport, I wasn’t allowed to go swimming, couldn’t do all the exercises that my brother used to do and because of the family teeth which weren’t very good and because of the medication I was taking my teeth were in a very poor state so I had all my teeth out when I was sixteen and in those days they didn’t put teeth straight back in away again they waited until your gums got hard and then they put some china teeth in in those days. China porcelain things and that ruined my early love life that did. Mind you I didn’t know what girls were anyway. As far as I was concerned they were the ones that danced backwards, you know, so my upbringing in that respect was very, very sheltered. In consequence I started to go to school when I was about four and a half in Newcastle on the City Road but soon becoming ill I had to stop school and when I did go back to school I was just, just under eleven when you took the scholarship exam at twelve and of course I didn’t pass the scholarship and I didn’t, my brother went to a grammar school. I couldn’t go to a grammar school. I went to a school where you learnt ship working and work on the, work with the prospect of going perhaps in to the drawing offices of the shipyard. All the local stuff. But there again I wasn’t allowed to join the scouts or play sports and yet and yet my dad used to love watching football and we used to go to Newcastle United and watch the football there from an early age, from about eight, so I got quite a bit of fondness for Newcastle United. So, there we are I was a very sickly child with very little education and of course in those days to join the services at the age of eighteen you were called up and you were directed into any of the services that they needed. Even go down the mines and become a Bevan boy which I didn’t relish so I told mum and dad my friend he was going to join up at seventeen and have some sort of choice of services you went into and dad having been in the navy I said to mum and dad I said, ‘I’m going to volunteer and I’m going to join the navy. Volunteer to join the navy’ And they said, ‘Yeah. With your health record you’ll never get in.’ So off I went down to the recruiting centre which was a school and in the navy classroom there was the navy recruiting officer and my own doctor, Doctor Wright and I thought. ‘If I go in there I’ll never get in.’ So, I went next door and joined the air force. And really they were very hard up. This poor chap with no teeth and a heart murmur and varicose veins and covered in psoriasis and I think the air force must have been very, very hard up and much to my amazement after going to West Kirby to sign on where you were attested and signed on and joined the air force at seventeen. And poor old mum wept buckets her poor little lad, her poor little innocent lad going to play soldiers um and of course from then you had to go down to London to ACRC, St Johns Wood to be attestation and see what air crew you were going to be. When you were first signed up and joined up I was told I could train as air crew which was amazing ‘cause, in view of my health. Anyway after being signed on and got the kings shilling, not that I got a shilling but had to swear on the bible down to ACRC where you had attestation where you had medicals and exams. The medicals we used to have were in the Lords Cricket Ground and used to line up just with your underpants on and arms akimbo with your hands on your hips and they were at the side with the hypodermic syringe and pumping this stuff into you and the doc used to come and do what they called an FFI, free from infection, whereby you walked down the front, dropped your trousers and they used to go down and examine you with a little stick and the back, they went around the back, they went around the back and said bend over and made me wonder what on earth was going to happen but there you are if anyone collapsed when you were there or fainted there they just produced all the work on the ground. They just gave the injections on the ground. So we being, being at the Lords Cricket Ground you know and of course the result of that, much to my amazement, I was told I could train as a pilot because when you first went there you were trained as aircrew UT aircrew with a little white flash in your cap to show you were aircrew, trainee aircrew. So there we are I was told I could train as a pilot. And of course from there you had to start learning about the air force so I was posted to Newquay down in Cornwall at the ITW Initial Training Wing where you learned about the air force, square bashing, how to salute and all these sort of things. The admin side of the air force. So having completed that we were posted to, I was posted to South Africa and issued with the tropical kit and off to East Kirby, West, West Kirby at Manchester er at Liverpool to catch the boat to go out to South Africa. And in the billets there when the time came all the people left except eleven of us who were left in the room all Ws. All Walls, Walkers all the Ws left behind and we were left there and the camp disappeared. They took all the men off the camp, all the operating men off the camp and there were just the eleven, we lived off the NAAFI for a week and not knowing what on earth was going on until the next posting that came in and they were all WAAFs. All the WAAFs came in and seeing eleven blokes in their billet you know wondering what on earth was going on. So did we. Then the WAAF officer said, you know, ‘What are you doing?’ Well. ‘We were posted to South Africa and we didn’t go.’ Ah draft dodging. So we were posted down to the B course at Brighton. The bad boys course at Brighton because of the because we were accused of draft dodging and down there we were up very early in the morning and booking in at half past eight at night which we didn’t take very much enjoyment out of this sort of thing and the parades were very, very strict and doubling and running everywhere and we complained to the orderly officer one day at a mealtime telling him, you know we shouldn’t be here. We haven’t done anything wrong and he didn’t believe it and he said, ‘Oh you carry on.’ So the eleven of us, we wrote a letter and we all signed it and sent it to the station commander who had us in his office and he said. ‘This constitutes mutiny,’ which is a court martial offence and when we’d explained to him what had happened he did a bit of an investigation, he said, ‘Oh that’s alright he said, ‘Alright just book in in the morning and come in at night time.’ So we had a few days, four or five day holidaying in Brighton just walking about and spending all our time in [Sherry’s] Bar I think it was and of course then we had to start again. And when we were posted we were posted to another ITW at Stratford on Avon but all our kit and all our records had been sent out to South Africa so nobody knew anything about us so we had to start again so we did all our ITW again at Stratford on Avon and that was very pleasant. We took over most of the hotels for lectures and bedding and I can say I was on the stage in Stratford on Avon which is quite a, quite a thrill mainly as we used the theatre as aircraft recognition. We had to go on stage to point out aeroplanes but that was quite an experience and of course having completed the course successfully there you had to go and prove that we could fly and go overseas so we were posted to a place called Codsall, just north of Wolverhampton where there was a civilian aerodrome where we were, had to go flying Tiger Moths and once we’d gone solo that was it, forgot about aeroplanes. Some of the poor souls couldn’t go solo and they were re-posted. So, fortunately, I managed it and on the Empire Training Scheme where they used to send trainees to South Africa, some to Australia even, some to Arnold Scheme in America. I was posted to Canada on the Empire Training Scheme and this was at a place called Dewinton which is just south of Calgary.
CB: So this is, what date are we talking about here?
RW: This, this was in early ’42.
CB: Right.
RW: Early ’42.
CB: Can I just go back to what you said earlier?
RW: Yeah.
CB: You were selected for aircrew.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But you must have gone through some kind of process that suggested you were suitable for aircrew rather than -
RW: Yeah.
CB: A ground crew job.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what was that?
RW: Yes. When you were first signed on, volunteered as air crew, when you went to Padgate to be officially sworn in to the service you did some testing there. You did some examinations there and with, fortunately with my experience as a pupil surveyor doing vectors and things on the ground is a similar sort of thing they did in the air with wind resistance and this sort of thing and that helped me enormously to pass the ground exams and having done that minor exams there you were then told you could train as UT aircrew.
CB: Right.
RW: Becoming UT aircrew PNB.
CB: Yeah.
RW: If you couldn’t succeed as a pilot you could perhaps become a navigator or a bomb aimer PNB.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And I was fortunate to say I could train as a pilot. So we -
CB: Just, just to put that into context. Earlier you talked about your experience of then getting to leave school.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How did you get in to bring the surveyor?
RW: Ah the well I -
CB: Which was the basis for your selection.
RW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: For aircrew.
RW: I had, the school I went to was a training establishment more than a school. Learning about draughtsmanship and this sort of thing -
CB: Yeah.
RW: To go on the shipyards and you had to leave there when you were fifteen, sixteen. So I left school, no idea of what sort of job I could get whatsoever. So my brother who was, he was a grammar school boy and very highly educated, a very clever lad, he used to work in his spare time at the Newcastle repertory theatre and this Christmas they were putting on a play called “The Circus Girl” and they were short of somebody to take the part of the monkey in the play and my brother said I’ve got a brother who is doing nothing maybe he’d be it so I became a monkey in the Christmas pantomime at the Newcastle rep which was great fun. The devils, they wore a uniform, skin monkey skin with not much else really. The devils used to put itching powder inside that actually. Not very nice. And of course then when the pantomime was finished they said, ‘What are you doing now?’ and I said, ‘Well, I don’t know. I’ve got to look for a job.’ They said, ‘Would you like to stop on?’ So I stayed on the Newcastle rep for nearly a year as an assistant assistant assistant stage manager and with the girls doing quick changes at the side of the theatre you learned an awful lot about life but my aunt who had a very good friend who was, worked, had another friend who owned and ran an architect’s surveyors office said would I like to go and work for them. So I went and worked at the architect surveyor’s office and became a pupil surveyor. I was doing the exams for the Institute of Surveying, ISF, and I passed their preliminary exams but they didn’t count because I didn’t have a matriculation or school cert so I was going to night school four nights a week learning about mathematics and history and I wasn’t getting on terribly well. I don’t think I would have ever qualified completely but very fortunately the war came along and having volunteered to join up I left surveying and became, and joined the air force.
CB: So that’s how you effectively qualified for being air crew.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. Yeah.
RW: So the fact that I qualified for air crew, the fact that, not so much my health record although the medicals I had were very comprehensive medicals the fact that the mathematics I was doing for the surveying helped me enormously with the navigation exercises we were doing in the thing so that, I think, helped towards the fact that I was allowed to train as air crew apart from the fact that they must have been very short of aircrew and they wanted somebody [to fill the boots]. Yeah, so -
CB: Just a quick question about your initial training.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How many hours did you fly before you went solo?
RW: When we first went solo at Codsall in Wolverhampton it was about eight or ten.
CB: Right.
RW: Something like that. When we got out to Canada you really had to start again and you were doing sort of fifteen, twenty hours before you really were allowed to go solo.
CB: So I’m just interrupting now because this goes into the early part of the interview because it got missed.
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AWaughmanR150803
PWaughmanR1501
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Interview with Rusty Waughman. Two
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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02:55:47 audio recording
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Pending review
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2015-08-03
Description
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Russell (Rusty) Waughman was born in Shotley Bridge, County Durham. Due to serious poor health as a child his education was interrupted. He describes his training with the Empire Training School in Canada. He was posted to 101 Squadron which was a special squadron with the ABC system. He describes some of the unusual aspects of squadron life such as premonitions and the close connections between everyone on the station. He had many close calls including having to right the aircraft which was flying upside down due to being blown of course by a nearby explosion. On one occasion he managed to keep his Lancaster flying despite a collision with another aircraft. On another occasion the aircraft was again damaged during an attack on Munich. However, as they made their slow progress back they found themselves flying over France in daylight and were amazed to see from the distance two Spitfires which had been sent to escort them home. He also took part in the Berlin airlift.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Canada
England--Lincolnshire
Contributor
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Julie Williams
101 Squadron
1662 HCU
82 OTU
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944)
briefing
C-47
control tower
coping mechanism
crewing up
dispersal
entertainment
faith
fear
FIDO
forced landing
ground crew
ground personnel
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
heirloom
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
love and romance
Me 109
mid-air collision
military living conditions
military service conditions
nose art
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
perimeter track
pilot
promotion
RAF Abingdon
RAF Blyton
RAF Desborough
RAF hospital Matlock
RAF Ludford Magna
recruitment
sanitation
searchlight
Stearman
superstition
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/185/3630/ASayerT151202.2.mp3
ba6057852e62c62cbbfc007b82267a39
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Title
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Sayer, Tom
Tom Sayer
T Sayer
Description
An account of the resource
13 items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Thomas Sayer DFM (1922 - 2021, 591744 54901 Royal Air Force), two log books, service material, newspaper cuttings and photographs. After training as a pilot in the United States of America, Tom Sayer flew Halifaxes with 102 Squadron at RAF Pocklington. He was commissioned in 1944 and became an instructor.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Tom Sayer and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-02-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Sayer, T
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: So my name is Chris Brockbank and I’m in Chalfont St Giles with Thomas Sayer DFM and we’re going to talk about his life and times. And today is the 7th of December 2015. So, Tom would you like to start with your earliest recollections please and then take it right through joining the RAF, what you did in the RAF and afterwards.
TS: The first recollections are that on a spring day in about ’28 I was [pause] no ’24. ’24. I was in the front of the house. Farmhouse. My father was busy in the yard because he wanted to get everything ready for the harvest and I was told that I hadn’t to interrupt my father because he was there doing it all by hand. There was no machinery and he just had to take the file and sharpen all the different tools which were necessary. Especially the mower where the thing went from side to side and it was pulled by one horse because we only had one horse. There was another one but it wasn’t trained to do that sort of thing. But anyway, and I was told not to interrupt. My mother said I didn’t had to, didn’t have to interrupt. I had to not to interrupt. And that was what he was doing. I was watching my father doing this and he was sharpening these tools as I said. And I was looking at the birds at the same time and the birds were quite happy to flutter quite close to us because they had nests nearby and we’d been, we were living there and so we were all good friends. One thing you certainly found though was when the birds just disappeared that there was a cat around and that is something which I also learned. That the cat would have the birds if the birds didn’t fly away. And how come the birds could fly like that when we couldn’t fly was a question in my mind. And it seemed strange that they just opened their wings and flapped them and they went up in the air. Now, I was going to ask my father that but of course I had to be quiet because he hadn’t to be interrupted while he was doing this job. As I say, all by hand and if he cut his hand then that would be, then be awkward for carrying on with the job. And that was my first outlook as to why people fly. How can people fly because I hadn’t seen anybody, people fly because they haven’t got the wings that the birdies have? And so, then sometime after, I don’t know if it was the next year I was playing around. I was still not at school and there was a terrific noise and it seemed to be coming up the valley and then all of a sudden there was this machine flying in the air and that was the first time I saw an aeroplane. And I then mentioned this to my father and at different times I mentioned things like that to him. He noticed that there was a, I can’t remember the name of it again but the air force. Each unit gave a showcase to the public once a year and there was one at Catterick and Catterick was just a small aerodrome apparently and dealing with the air force and the army getting together. And he, however, we had — he owned a motorbike and side car. Maximum speed about twenty five miles an hour I think. And we set off and it took us just a little while to get to Catterick and I was amazed of these things and he said they could fly but they weren’t flying. They were just sitting there. And then all of a sudden there was some activity and somebody came along and jumped on to the wing of the aeroplane and then disappeared into the aeroplane and somebody else came along with something in his hand and he started winding and winding and this thing at the front with a roar from an engine started up. The chappie who was on the wing slid down and off and then I think they were moving something from in front of the wheels of the aircraft and then he took away and went around the field, and then it turned around and then it, with a big roar came just right over me flying in the air. That was when I first saw a real aeroplane close up. From then on all I wanted to do was fly an aeroplane. And I read books if I could get hold of them. There weren’t many books in those days but if I could get books I would have a look at the books. I wouldn’t say read but I hadn’t really learned to read. And I was told that I, if I wanted to join the air force you had to pass exams. And if you had to pass exams you had to listen to what the teacher said and so on and so forth. So there was only one teacher at this school for the whole of the school and she was teaching people from five to fourteen and a few of each all divided up and so on and so forth. And I quickly found myself being pushed in to the higher ones of age and I was the youngest one by quite a while in this, in this group and I was catching my sister up as well which she didn’t think much of. So, anyway, I also was told that if I passed an examination by the local authority which had just come in in the 1930s, it was just a common thing where you could, if you passed the exam you got your schooling at the grammar school for free and it depended on how much you succeeded in the exam as to whether you got transport or not and so on and so forth. And so I really went for it and I got the top rate and was able then to go to the grammar school. But to get to the grammar school I had to get to a railway station which was two and a half miles up hill and downhill and then at Aysgarth Station where I’d join the train and then the other people who’d been coming in. The rest of the Dale and they were all coming up and we went up to Askrigg where the Yorebridge Grammar School was. And I, we, I soon found out that you had to work there as well and work quite hard otherwise you were chastised by the headmaster. If he knew that you could learn and you didn’t learn you got in to trouble. But I wanted to learn anyway and I did. I did learn and moved up as I said into another, the next year up so that I was in, I’d already done a year at school before I’d started it if you’d like to put it that way. But myself and another young girl who just happened to be my wife later on in the things and we were great pals and we joined together and we were — had to battle because of the, we having been moved up a year the people who were in the second year didn’t think much of it and she used to, shall I say, hover around me because for protection etcetera. Verbal mainly. Anyway, we both passed our exams and I wanted to join the air force and I had learned, had got some information that if I had the school certificate I could go in as apprentice and so, I went in as an apprentice. And that meant that the young lady was left at school and she was going in. I spent from the beginning, I was still at school at the Christmas and I joined the air force just in the beginning of the next year you see. But she was left in there and then she decided she’d had enough because when the war came on at the 3rd of September 1939 she decided that she didn’t want to go to university because in the first place she didn’t think her family could afford her going there and then she — because a lot of the exams and that were disturbed by the war she decided to come out. And she had an aunt who lived in [pause] not far from Croydon and so she came down here and she got herself a job in London. And she was on that, in that capacity going higher and higher because she was doing quite well until we were married which wasn’t until after the war. I think that was my fault but I thought I’d seen times when people had come back from their marriage and within days they’d gone missing and I thought that must have been terrible for the wife. To be a wife for such a short time and then be in that situation. And so, it got towards the end of the war and we sort of drifted apart a little and it wasn’t ‘til after I’d established myself in a job here in the south, in the south of England that I could make contact with her again and after a few very heart to heart talks we decided to get married. She died ten years ago. And we had two children. They are now retired. That is it as far as that’s concerned. But the air force was my chief thing and I managed to persuade the people. I was, my apprentice, I was in accounts because I was very good with figures but I would rather have been in the mechanic side of it but anyway that was way they had accepted me in to the air force and I worked hard and I got results and I was soon an NCO. Well before I was eighteen I was an NCO in charge of the whole of the stores side of the station and two new squadrons. And so, some people apparently couldn’t believe it but I did it because the chappie who was in charge had come in from the Civvie Street and of course he knew nothing about, not a lot about the accountancy in the air force. And so he sort of relied on me and they were just building up this station with two squadrons and so I started up the whole of the side from the stores side of it. I didn’t do anything with the pay, pay side. And then when I was eighteen I applied to fly. So I started flying. The chappie in charge of the accounts was not at all thrilled by it and I said, ‘Well sir you’ve got people who had the same instruction as me when I came in. there are ex-apprentices in there, in that lot, who are in the pay side so they should be able to do the job.’ I never found out whether it was successful or not. I just joined the air force. It was quite easy for me in the early part of that because I knew all about drill. I knew all about the rules and regulations and so therefore I had quite an easy time. And I did have a little chat with one chappy who started to order me around. I was an NCO and it seemed as though he didn’t like me being an NCO for some reason and so I said to him, I said, ‘Now look. I think that you are probably an LAC with an acting sergeant.’ And so on. And he looked at me and I said, ‘Yes. That’s enough.’ And he never tried any more with me. I just —but I didn’t, I wasn’t interested in doing anything to him because all I wanted to do was go flying. But that’s me. And so anyway. Where did I go flying? Yes, well, I went down to the south coast. I could point to it on a map but it’s just gone and where the initial side of learning to fly was and that was when I had that chat with that chappy. And then we were told we were going abroad to be trained as pilots. One point which has always interested me was when I was having the medical, as they called it, for, to see whether I was fit to fly you had to look and do certain things to see that your brain was coordinating with your hands or your hands were coordinating with your brain. Which was very important of course in flying. And it, anyway, I just lost a little ground there. We —
[Pause]
CB: So your initial flying assessment.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Was on the south coast.
TS: Yes.
CB: And that’s where they were doing those tests.
TS: Yes. Yes.
CB: That’s wasn’t at Torquay was it?
TS: No. I was at Torquay but I don’t think. That is what I can’t remember exactly where that –
CB: It doesn’t matter because we can pick up on it later.
TS: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: But then they decided that you should be trained abroad.
TS: Yes.
CB: And there were lots of places they trained abroad so where did you go?
TS: Yeah. A little point on this test.
CB: Yes.
TS: There was a test there and there was something where you looked with one eye and you had to get it level and all the rest of it and then the other eye and so on and so forth and then the chappie who was in charge of it went and talked to somebody and he said, ‘Well, will you do it again?’ And so I thought to myself aren’t I going to pass this then?’ Then he said — I asked, I said, ‘Why am I being asked to do it again?’ I said, ‘Haven’t I got it?’ He said, ‘Got it?, he said, ‘You’re the best bloody so and so on there.’ He said, ‘That’s why I [unclear] he said, ‘Its ages since we’ve got anybody who could do that.’ And so, I thought oh that’s fair enough. And of course, I’ve still got very good eyesight. I know I need to sometimes just to read but I can almost tell you how many leaves are on that. No. Not there [laughs] the one at the back. I can see if there’s a cow, or a lamb or anything goes in the field right near that tree quite easily yet. The only time I have to is when I need to read something and I’m fiddling around with these things. Now where have we get to?
CB: So, you did the test and they were very impressed.
TS: Yes.
CB: So, then what?
TS: Then we went to go abroad and it might seem as though it’s quite easy. Just get on a boat and go but it wasn’t as easy as that because apparently we were to go to Iceland and pick up another, another ship in Iceland and we were supposed to be going on a certain day and then we didn’t go. And then, this was when we were in Cheshire. North Cheshire. And we had to sail from Liverpool. And we were going to go and then we didn’t go. We were going to go and then we didn’t go. And that was the sort of situation we felt we were in. And so eventually we did go and on the boat where we left Liverpool was such a lovely boat. It smelled of nothing but cows and what cows had left behind. And they, they’d taken a ship which was being used for bringing cattle from Ireland to Scotland and they’d grabbed it and said they would do this and they’d supposedly scrubbed it out and supposedly that was our ship to get us to Iceland because the other ship just disappeared. And so that was going away from a farm and then I got the smell of a farm as I was on the ship.
CB: Fantastic.
TS: The first ship that I’d been on. And there you are. So, Iceland was quite interesting because we had to go on this ship because the other one as I say had been lost somewhere and we were late and apparently this big ship just coming out of Reykjavik harbour was the one we were supposed to be on. But it didn’t stop and pick us up and we were just dropped in Reykjavik and the boat went away and nobody, you know, there was no arrangements been made for us to be there. And so there was a little, I think it’s something to do with the, not radio so much, as to do with atmosphere which was being looked into by a gaggle of air force people and then they were sending the messages back to England but we weren’t really interested in that. But they couldn’t cope with a great big horde of people. I think there were about fifty odd of us there and then they shifted us a bit further up where there was another little air force base. And they could feed us and they could give us sleeping accommodation but no beds or anything. We could, we more or less slept in what we had. Well, after a while it was a little difficult because there was no hot water. The only heat they were using was where they wanted to do their cooking because they didn’t have the fuel to do a whole load of heating. Heating water and such. So, we said well how about, I think it was one of, one of our blokes, anyway we would go to the, one of these pools which are in Iceland and therefore, therefore we could have our baths there and it was quite interesting to some of the locals who happened to be females [laughs] and it was quite, you know, jolly and all the rest of it. You know, it was, there was nothing serious. There was one person in there who was serious and I don’t think she really thought we should be there. And I think she was apparently of German descent or something. Anyway, it didn’t worry me. We just, and we got on to another boat and we went to Canada. And then at Canada we jumped on a train and we thought oh well we’re just going along to Halifax, not, from Halifax to Toronto. We were just going from Halifax to Toronto but we didn’t realise it didn’t take you one day. It took you about three days to get from Halifax to Toronto and then the size of the place. Looking at the maps that I’d used at school and that going from there to there and then you had to go to there to be at the other side of Canada meant Canada was a very big wide place. And then again, when we set out from there we went to Toronto as I said and then when we were at Toronto we were given civvies. So we didn’t really know — ‘What do we want civvies for? None of the others seemed to have civvies.’ So we jumped on the train and we didn’t go out the west. We went south and then we found we were in the United States of America and as we were, as we entered America they warned us to keep away from the windows because there were some people in America who were stoning these trains because they didn’t want to be involved in the war and some of them were of German descent didn’t want us to be fighting the war anyway. But we got, the further south we got the more accompanied we got and the more warmer we got and so on and so forth. And — and we went to Georgia. Georgia was a big place. Now, I need my logbook to give you the exact — DAR Aerotech. That’s it DAR Aerotech. Now where in Georgia? Can’t remember.
CB: It doesn’t matter. We’ll pick up with it later.
TS: And yes, it was a civilian outfit but with American Air Corps instructors. And it got us going on the, as far as the flying concerned in quite a nice atmosphere and with hardly any discipline as, you know, the rigid discipline and we would just fall in and we’d be marched from one place to another but apart from that there was nothing on that side. And the — quite a noisy lot. One or two of them. One gaggle of them was noisy but as the weeks went by the noise seemed to grow less and less and less. So, they were no longer there. But the chappies like — quite a few of us were ex-apprentices and we knew the ropes as far as the air force was concerned and therefore we drift in to flying that matters. Playing silly boys around the table didn’t matter to us at all. And that’s my attitude about it as well now. If you have a job to do the job’s there and you do that regardless. And it, it was quite an eye opener and brain damaging almost that I was having to accommodate a lot more all at once. Different things. Bits and pieces here and there. The locals were ok but we were told we had to be in civvies and we were told that we had to be careful and certain areas were supposedly out of bounds and because of the German people who were American German or German American. And once or twice we’d wander off in to the wilderness as it looked like and there would be a little village of coloured people. And we managed to chat with them. At first, they were very shy of us. They didn’t, you know, they didn’t talk to the white people and the white people didn’t talk to them sort of thing and they were quite amazed that we’d come. They’d heard of England. They’d knew England. Somewhere. You know. It was mystical place to most of them. And it was quite a nice pleasant chat to them on more than one occasion when we just strolled around there in the evening and then went back to base and went to bed and started another day and most of the chappies who had been in the air force before the war went through. Got through all right. Very few of them didn’t. But it was a very strict situation. Not only as far as behaviour was concerned but as far as remembering what you were supposed to be there for and to get on and get, do the job. Then we went to, having passed on the primary we went to another one and this was an intermediate one which was a little further north. When I say a little further north — about a hundred and fifty miles and there we were right in to the US Army Air Corps. Another experience. So that was another step we had to make. And it was really strict but we wanted to learn to fly so we decided that we wanted to fly. Well we got on with it and we were flying the Vultee BT13As. I don’t know whether you’ve come across it. And then they had, of course, on the first place we were on biplanes. Stearmans. And then it was a move in the right direction which I was able to take quite quickly. It had a fixed undercarriage but we did have flaps and we had a two speed prop. I think those were the main changes. They also had both out there and they had the wings and all the rest of it. And then we moved on to the North American AT6A which is the Harvard in the British air force and, well you got all the details of that before. hadn’t you so-? And we passed. We passed out. Those who made it. And back to England.
CB: So how many hours did you accumulate in your flying? In the basic flying and in the intermediate. Roughly.
TS: I think when we’d finished we had about four hundred hours flying.
CB: So, you got your wings at that stage, did you?
TS: Yes.
CB: And who gave you the wings?
TS: Well the wings I got, we got, were American Air Corps wings. And I’ve still got them.
CB: So, there wasn’t an RAF officer presenting RAF wings.
TS: No. No.
CB: Interesting. Right.
TS: It wasn’t until we got back to Canada that we could have the RAF wings.
CB: Because the war, this is pre-Pearl Harbour isn’t it we’re talking about? We’re talking about ‘40 ’41.
TS: When we were at, on the final lot. We went from the station we were then on in [pause] the next state. The next state to the west.
CB: Yes.
TS: Yes. And then we went from there to the main Florida place for the US Army Air Corps and when we got there — we had to fly our own planes from the Station. Take our planes and land them there. We all went in one big formation.
CB: Right.
TS: And landed there. And then we could see all the new planes coming along and I was most interested in that and I started wandering along. Nobody said anything so I wandered further and I saw that the, the very [pause] what they call the touchy plane. The twin-engined with the big engines in the American Army Air Corps.
CB: What the B25 Mitchell? Was it?
TS: No. No it was —
CB: Before that.
TS: No. It was after that.
CB: Oh right.
TS: There was a bigger one with a bigger engine.
CB: Right.
TS: It was difficult to fly on one engine.
CB: A Marauder.
TS: A Marauder. Yes.
CB: Ok. But you flew over there in your Harvards.
TS: Yes. But we didn’t fly in these planes.
CB: No. I know.
TS: But they were there.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
TS: And I was going around while other people were doing all sorts of other things.
CB: Right.
TS: I was going around all those planes and looking at them.
CB: It wasn’t Fort Lauderdale was it? In Florida. Anyway, it doesn’t matter. We can pick that up later. So, you got there and that’s when you were awarded your wings was it? in Florida.
TS: No. No.
CB: Oh it was in the previous one.
TS: We came back again.
CB: Oh right. Came back again. Right.
TS: We came back again. And we got the American wings and then we got our English wings when we were in Canada.
CB: Right. They just did a straight swap when you got to Canada.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Did they do a parade? To —
TS: I don’t, I don’t know. I can’t remember. I can’t remember.
CB: So, you got back to Canada. Then what?
TS: Then I caught measles.
CB: Oh.
JS: Oh dear.
TS: And that changed my life.
CB: In what way?
TS: Well, all the people I was with —
CB: Oh yeah.
TS: They went back to England. And there was me. I didn’t feel well. I didn’t want to go to the [unclear] and I was apparently staggering around. So they more or less forced me in to see the doc. And I remember going in and him saying, ‘And what’s the matter with you then?’ Something like that. And that’s, two days later I woke up [pause] because I hadn’t gone early enough for it to be sorted out because I wanted to go back to England. So, I lost all my friends and everything. I came back as a lonely man. If you can imagine one airman on a boat with about four hundred other servicemen but none of them airmen. It was quite interesting. I could go anywhere I wanted on the boat. Nobody, nobody queried it because all the rest were the, were the Canadian army and they were quite restricted in their, they had all their different — but I could go anywhere on the boat and that was it. And it was only because I’d come out of hospital. And then when I got to England they couldn’t find my papers or anything because apparently, I was supposed to come on the —they’d been looking for me and there were some papers and there was no body. And they didn’t know that I’d been left in Canada. And you can imagine me trying to explain to these people what was what. It was ages. I just, I think it was about three weeks I was there. I was nobody because I couldn’t prove that I was who I supposed to be.
CB: You had an id card on you presumably.
TS: Well, I can’t remember. I expect I must have had something there.
CB: And your tags.
TS: Yes. But they —
CB: But they thought you were absent without leave.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Now at that stage you’d been a sergeant technically throughout your flying training had you?
TS: No. I was only corporal.
CB: Corporal. Right.
TS: Corporal.
CB: When you get back to Britain what rank are you then?
TS: I am a sergeant.
CB: Exactly. Yeah. When you got your wings.
TS: Yes.
CB: You became a sergeant.
TS: Yes.
CB: Right. Ok. So, you get back to Liverpool.
TS: Well. No.
CB: They try and sort you out.
TS: No. It wasn’t Liverpool.
CB: Ah.
TS: This was —
CB: Up in Scotland was it? Prestwick.
TS: No. No. No. This was at a Yorkshire place. Not York. Harrogate. Harrogate. And I was sort of the only one in. It isn’t as though I had friends or anything. I was just this little one person who wanted to be known but they didn’t have the proper paperwork so I couldn’t. But they did feed me.
CB: Ok. How long did that go on for?
TS: About two or three weeks. I can’t really remember but — I still don’t know where my books are.
CB: No. So here you are in Harrogate which was a sort of holding place —
TS: Yeah.
CB: Before allocating you so now you’re trained to wings standard with a lot of flying. What happened next?
TS: Well I went to an — not an OTU. An advanced flying place where after having flown the AT6A with all the little knobs in it I flew a mighty Oxford [laughs] with a little bit of fans going on.
CB: Yes.
TS: Yes. And you had to be careful with the Oxford because it — if you misbehaved it let you know.
CB: So, you’re on twin engines and you’re only used to singles.
TS: Yes.
CB: So where’s the Advanced Training School?
TS: That was at Upwood. Not Upwood. Upwood.
CB: In Cambridgeshire.
TS: No. No. It wasn’t in Cambridgeshire. You go down the Great North Road as it used to be there. You come to right next to it. I could put my hand straight to it on the map. Anyway, this, we can work that out later and it was Oxfords and when I was being trained on how to fly and all the rest of it and I just happened to say that I’d never flown an aircraft which had constant speed props. I got a bit of a mouthful from the person who was trying to teach me how to fly a twin-engined aircraft ‘cause he thought I wasn’t taking sufficient notice. But anyway, I was alright and I was alright at night as well. That was when we started flying at nights and I think that had I got back with the gaggle instead of having measles I would have gone forward on the fighter pilot side of it but I, it was sort of the — some of us seemed to have no home at Harrogate and we were the ones who were pushed in to there but that didn’t matter. I was flying. That was the main thing. And then I went, of course, on to Blenheims.
CB: Where was that?
TS: That’s Upwood. Blenheims was Upwood. So that brain there had got too far forward hadn’t it?
CB: Yeah. And that’s the OTU.
TS: Yeah. And then just as we were finishing that the Blenheims were withdrawn from the front line and so as we were used to flying low because we did low flying with the Blenheims then we went to 10 OTU detachment flying Whitleys. Then we learned how, I picked up then there would be five with us in the crew. It was three with the Blenheim and then having five crew when we were flying Whitleys. So, a lovely move wasn’t it from playing? So, it meant that one way and another I had flown all sorts of different types of aircraft and I wasn’t unduly worried about it. I just, I could just get in to the planes and do it. It was like later on when we were after ops and I was instructing on Whitleys and then the Whitleys were falling apart so they came with with the Wellingtons and so there was somebody who had been on Wellingtons and he came along to teach me how to fly and I just went in and I just went and I took off and I came in and landed. He said, ‘I can’t learn — I can’t teach any bloody thing at all.’ And that’s just because I could. This brain of mine could just concentrate on, on these things. Well that lever’s there. I didn’t know that a lot of people had a lot of trouble having to remember where all these things were. Once I’d sat down in an aircraft it looked as though I knew where they all were and that’s one reason I think why I survived.
CB: So, you’re on Wellingtons.
TS: Yes. Just for a short time. No. We were still on Whitleys at the OTU.
CB: Right. Ok.
TS: And then we went down to Cornwall where we did the anti-sub patrols.
CB: St Mawgan.
TS: St Eval.
CB: St Eval. Ok. So that’s your Bay of Biscay flying. What was the pattern of flying there?
TS: Well you jumped into the, well you crawled in to the aircraft and as you were taxi-ing you realised that there was an awful lot weight on there because we had so much fuel on board and although I’d flown the plane without being weighed so much it was quite an experience to realise that you just had to concentrate quite a lot more and make sure that the engines were ok. Which you had to do by sound mainly. And that the — you had all your flaps up and wheels up etcetera and so forth and then you could happily go and do anything up to ten hours sitting in a seat. Driving an aeroplane.
CB: Did you have autopilot in the Whitley?
TS: Yes, but I never, I never took to the auto pilot. There was, even on the Halifax I never used it. I used to trim the aircraft so it could fly itself. That’s what I did. Yeah.
CB: So, on the anti-submarine patrols what did you do? What was the pattern of your work? You take off.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Then what?
TS: Then you’d go to the Scilly isles. And from there you would be given a triangular trip which would be anything up to ten hours over the Bay of Biscay. And sometimes you would [pause] over the Bay of Biscay you’d never see another aircraft until you got back again.
CB: Are we in daylight or at night?
TS: On daylight.
CB: Right.
TS: Of course, we didn’t want to see the German aircraft which were looking for us because we would have been just, you know, been hopeless. All we had was the four guns at the back and a pop-up gun at the back and any Junkers 88s or ME110s would have just shot us out of the sky if we were found. So, we, when we were nearest to France we were very very low down on the sea.
CB: How low would you fly consistently?
TS: I can’t really work it out in feet. It’s just [unclear] but you could definitely, you could definitely see the waves and the forming of the waves and all the rest of it.
CB: Are we talking about a thousand feet? Or —
TS: Oh no. No. No.
CB: Five hundred feet. Or lower.
TS: No. No. A Hundred feet.
CB: Right. So, the intensity of concentration was considerable.
TS: Yes. And then if you wanted to relax a little bit you could come up a bit above the shade and relax a bit more. There was — we did have with us another pilot but we knew nothing about him because he, he just arrived when we were going on the plane so we couldn’t even talk to him about anything. He just came in and sat at the co-pilot’s seat there and so I just let him sit there because I wasn’t going to let him fly my aeroplane unless I knew what he could do. And we were supposed to be keeping low over there. And then he’d just get off the plane and disappear. And it seemed to be a different person every time. So, I thought, well, no continuity. If I had to have somebody who I wanted to do a course and all the rest of it then there was some sense to if I had him every time.
CB: Where did they come from? These people.
TS: I don’t know.
CB: Oh. They weren’t your squadron members.
TS: Oh No. No. No. I think —
CB: Were they experienced?
TS: No.
CB: Coastal Command people.
TS: No.
CB: Oh, they weren’t.
TS: They were all sergeant pilots and the way they, you know, I don’t think they knew much about flying. Just, after the first two when I started talking about one or two things he just sat there. They just sat there and I wasn’t sure that they could fly that aeroplane at the height I wanted them to fly it. It wouldn’t be right down low either. And so —
CB: Did you ever let them take over?
TS: No.
CB: Put it up a bit and take over.
TS: No.
CB: Right.
TS: No.
CB: So here you are flying along. What are you doing? A square search. Or how are you operating?
TS: Triangular.
CB: Triangular search. Which is? How does that operate because it’s not continuous over this same area is it?
TS: No. The —
CB: The triangle moves.
TS: We’ll say this is, this is the Bay of Biscay.
CB: Yes.
TS: And there’s France. And there’s Spain.
CB: Yeah.
TS: And here are we. Well you’d sometimes go that way around and come back again or you go that way around. And then you go there, there, there. Come round. And it was all to do with the navigation and that was why I was so pleased with my navigator who I had when I was on Blenheims. And it wasn’t ‘til a few years ago that I realised in the chatter by some of the other people when we had a get together that he had a PhD in mathematics.
CB: Did he really?
TS: Yes.
CB: After the war or before?
TS: Before.
CB: Did he really?
TS: Yeah. When he was flying with us he had a PhD in —
CB: In maths.
TS: In maths.
CB: Was he a bit older than the rest of you?
TS: Yes. He was. Apparently he was a teacher.
CB: What did you call him?
TS: He was teaching maths.
CB: What did you call him?
TS: Well.
CB: Uncle or grandpa?
TS: Well, we called him Bill because his name was Billborough.
CB: Right.
TS: The — I didn’t know either ‘til the end of the war that my bomb aimer who, he said he’d wanted to be a pilot but anyway he had come down from [pause] what’s the place? Cambridge, and he still had some of his university to do when the war was over. And I met him after the war and he was, he was marvellous. You know. He got his degree and all the rest of it. So when the time came when my son had a chance of going we made sure that he got there too.
CB: Good.
TS: And he finished up with a PhD in maths.
CB: Did he really?
TS: Yeah.
CB: Wasn’t that good.
TS: And he’s now retired as I said. And so, its all a question at times when you’re doing certain things. When you do the right thing and then you realise you’d done the right thing because of the information you got afterwards.
CB: Of course.
TS: And he didn’t, in any way, shall I say, push the issue and say I’ve got a PhD or anything like that. He just was there because he needn’t —I think in his position he probably needn’t have gone to the war but he decided that he was going to do that.
CB: So, he was a very good navigator. Bill.
TS: Yes. Oh yes.
CB: So, going back to the flying you’re doing the triangular search and it’s move, you’re varying the triangle. And how on earth do you keep going for ten hours because you can’t leave the plane flying itself?
TS: No.
CB: If you need to go and look at the plumbing.
TS: No. You don’t. You don’t. There was a little gadget there.
CB: A tube.
TS: A tube. Yes. But other than that. No.
CB: What sort of — ten hours is a long time without refreshment so what was the arrangement for eating?
TS: That did come up a little bit and we had a thermos flask with some supposedly coffee in it. And some sandwiches. And we ate well.
CB: Did you?
TS: When we were on the ground. We did really eat well. So there was no question of were we hungry. It was your own fault if you didn’t eat when you could.
CB: Of course. And the sandwiches. Jam? Or were they something more substantial?
TS: Something a little more substantial. Yes.
CB: So, what about the rest of the crew? When you’re flying your triangular search you’re in a Whitley which has got five people in. The navigator’s got his head down. What’s everybody else doing?
TS: Looking to see if he could see what you really didn’t think you ought, you ought to see. We would have had to go — had we seen a U-boat you would have to attack it. Now, if the boat was right out of the water and they had the guns all ready a Whitley would be so slow getting at it that it would be shot out the sky before he could drop his bombs. So you, if you were going to have one you had — just as it was coming up. Or just when it was going along with a little bit at the top. And we never saw anything of that nature and once I was thinking — I needed a little bit, to go up a little bit and pulled up and then there’s land immediately in front of me. I thought — that’s Spain. And the navigator for once had forgotten to tell me to turn. But we were still in — we were in —
CB: International waters. Were you?
TS: Still in international waters. But if I hadn’t just, for some reason it’s, I’ve got that little magic thing somewhere telling me to do some things. If I hadn’t I’d have been flying right over Spain before I realised it. Of course, you couldn’t immediately turn. Especially if you were down low.
CB: No. Sure.
TS: You had to come up a little bit to turn. And so, I’ve always thought that in lots of times in my life there’s been a little angel just helping me along.
CB: So, thinking of your armament. I’ve interviewed somebody who attacked a submarine. So, what was your forward armament first of all?
TS: We’d got a pop up in the front.
CB: What were they?
TS: It was just a little —
CB: Two.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Two 303s.
TS: Yeah.
CB: And so what anti-submarine stores did you carry?
TS: Four.
CB: Depth charges. And how did you, what was the intended attack mode for that?
TS: Well, you go there and you drop them so that your first ones were just before the sub and then you’d have two land where the sub was and the other one was — but you you had to get them a bit earlier than some people did. It’s no good letting them go and then them all being over the top of it.
CB: Because they’re flying forward with you.
TS: Yes. That’s why we didn’t know it but when we were on a bombing at — Whitleys.
CB: Do you want to stop for a mo?
JS: Yeah. Stop for a minute.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
TS: Well it’s alright. Yes. Yes. We’d better stop for a bit.
JS: Stretch your leg for a bit.
CB: Right.
[Recording paused]
TS: Well when we were doing OTU we, as a crew, were seen to be doing more low-flying bombing than anybody else. And we were doing this and we’d go up and we’d do it and we’d go up and we’d do it and by getting the pictures and that we realised how early we had to be dropping these because you were going at the speed even though we weren’t going at a terrific speed you were going at a speed and if you’re not careful the sub is back here and you’re bombing something that isn’t there. And so, we said well is it any different to the, for the depth charge type thing which we would be dropping? Well we didn’t even know that we were going to be on Coastal Command then. I said the bombs we would be dropping then for the practice bombs which we were using. You see. Just the smoke bombs. And they say well as far as we can get to it that has the same flying attitude until it hits the ground but it depends largely on the height you are and the speed you’re doing as to where that thing lands.
CB: So, with depth charges the principal is the same except that they’re not aerodynamic are they?
TS: No. But you are very low so that’s not going to be a big thing. And if you have a string of four you have one before and two more or less hitting it and then the third one on that but you had to get it on the —say that’s the sub there you have to come in but you have to be right over the top of the sub to do it. Well, you can imagine if the sub is fully raised and there’s somebody on the gun already it’s a bit warm before you get there.
CB: Now, in your aircraft did you have a bomb aimer?
TS: Yes.
CB: And he had the responsibility of dropping the depth charges?
TS: No.
CB: Or you did.
TS: I did.
CB: Right. And how did you come to do that because you didn’t have the sight? So he had to call it to you.
TS: No. Well, we’ll say that’s the U-boat there.
CB: Ok.
TS: Well you would be going, coming and if you saw it you might be going at an angle across it and all the rest of it. Well, you would have to drop your bombs so that one of them was, it was, they were depth charges so they weren’t bombs and therefore they had to go more or less —
CB: Sure.
TS: Underneath the plane to blow it up.
CB: Under the submarine. Yeah.
TS: Yeah. Underneath the submarine.
CB: They were pre-set before you set off.
TS: Yeah.
CB: On the premise that you were only flying at a hundred feet.
TS: Yeah.
CB: So, who is calling the release time?
TS: I was. We decided, I think, that I would do that. And I would —
CB: You’d pressing the button.
TS: I’d press the button.
CB: He’d call.
TS: And I was pressing the button when we were practicing.
CB: Yes. But who gave the call for the timing of the dropping? So, the bomb aimer is saying, ‘Right. Drop now.’
TS: No.
CB: Is he?
TS: No.
CB: You are.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
TS: Because you were so low that the bomb aimer couldn’t use the bomb aiming thing or anything.
CB: So it was just a Mark One eyeball.
TS: Yeah.
CB: You didn’t have a sight yourself.
TS: No. No
CB: And did you —
TS: But that was because you had the four —
CB: Yeah. The final question on this is did you drop them automatically as a stick or did you have to press each time to drop each one?
TS: No. You dropped and your whole load went.
CB: Right.
TS: That was how we were set anyway. So therefore you’d drop a little early than you thought for the first one to go because there was a tendency to get too close to it.
CB: Yeah.
TS: And you went over the top of it. And that is why we did the low levels.
CB: Ok.
TS: And I have pictures somewhere of the, of us dropping low level.
CB: So, detached to Coastal Command how many ops did you do?
TS: At. Then. I think it was eight. Eight of those ops.
CB: Ok. And then after that what happened?
TS: I went back to bombers. And I went from there to [pause] Stanton. No. Not Stanton Harcourt. The one near York where you went from Whitleys to Halifaxes.
CB: Is that Riccall?
TS: No. It was the other one. There was Riccall was one. It was the other one.
CB: Holme on Spalding Moor.
TS: Yes. No. No. There was another one. Anyway.
CB: Yeah
TS: Yeah. And the chappy. I’m trying to remember.
CB: There was Elvington and Pocklington later.
TS: I’m just a little bit.
CB: Ok. And this was the HCU was it? The Heavy Conversion Unit.
TS: Yes. Heavy Conversion Unit.
CB: Ok.
TS: We went to [pause] in Yorkshire. Not far from York. The Moor.
CB: Ok. I’ll look it up.
TS: There was a big, a big battle fought there during one of the years long before we were born. And —
CB: Ok.
TS: I’m just wondering. You see all the time my brain is thinking where the heck are those things.
CB: Those logbooks. Yeah. So how long were you at the HCU?
TS: Not very long. And it was, I think more of them deciding your capacity early than anything else because you hadn’t to do anything more than just convert from one plane to another.
CB: Yeah. Because you already had experience in operations.
TS: Well, that might be the case but I think everybody had to be at that and if you’re just going from one plane to another well you just go from one plane to another. It’s like going from one car to another isn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
TS: As far as I’m concerned anyway. And it [pause] it was interesting to have these. The four engines and you had the engineer and the mid-upper gunner as extra crew. You had to get to know them and they had to know who was boss in the second, looking at it from another angle. And we made quite sure that we got the right people. I was lucky, as I said, in getting my original crew. When we went from three off the Blenheims to five I said to the [pause] you know on to the Whitleys, I said to the observer, as he then was, I said, ‘Well you know more about bomb aiming than I do. You find the best bomber.’ And I said to, you WOp/AG, I said, ‘You know more about the thing. Go and get me a good air gunner,’ and that’s what they did. They were successful because I’m still here. That’s the thing and the same sort of thing was when we went — that was from three to five and then from five to seven it was a similar thing except that I chose the engineer.
CB: Right. Ok.
TS: And I walked up to the gaggle of the engineers and I said, ‘I’m a pilot who’s looking for an engineer. What have you done? What engineering have you done?’ And I was quite blunt about it. So this chappy there was saying, ‘I haven’t passed many exams,’ he said, ‘Because the job was to keep machinery going twenty four hours a day.’
CB: In civilian life.
TS: In civilian life. I thought, well, we’ll have him. Some of the others had just done, more or less, a verbal course. And so when the engineer and I first went into an aircraft the first thing we did was start at the nose and work right to the back and all the bits and pieces and he seemed as though he’d done his learning in the classroom and he never let me down one, one little bit. He was a very good man. Because he had also, he hadn’t come straight from somewhere where he hadn’t been involved in anything much and he had been where he kept, had to keep these machines going for twenty four hours a day in a factory as I said. And I think it makes quite a difference.
CB: Yeah. Ok. So just going back on timings what are we talking about here? You go to the HCU. When would that be?
TS: Oh well actually we didn’t go straight from what we were doing to the HCU. We went on a battle course. That has nothing to do with flying though has it?
CB: No. With the RAF regiment was it?
TS: No. It was — we had somebody in the army who didn’t really want to be on the job. So it was interesting.
CB: So the whole crew goes on the battle course.
TS: Yes.
CB: And they’re all sergeants.
TS: Yes.
CB: And what’s the army man?
TS: He was a sergeant. I think he was a real sergeant as well. He wasn’t just a sergeant. Somebody —
CB: Experienced man was he?
TS: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So what did you do on the battle course?
TS: Well what the army did. It was an army’s battle course. Live — live ammunition at the end and that was being introduced then more and more I think because if you baled out and you happened to land somewhere over the other side and you weren’t picked up by the enemy you could probably fight with the people who were just making a nuisance of themselves to the Germans or when the — we really went for them then you could help too, as battle course behind their lines. That was the theory of it. I don’t think it would have been very very efficient because [pause] anyway we’re talking here now because we won the war. Or well we officially won the war but –
CB: I interviewed a man who was shot down and had done a battle course and joined the Maquis.
TS: Yes. Yes, well that was the other one. Yes.
CB: Right. Ok. So when is this? What time are we talking about? 1942? Or are we still in ‘41. Where are we?
TS: Well, we are now going to four engines aren’t we?
CB: Yeah. HCU.
TS: HCU. HCU was in the 1943. In the spring.
CB: Ok.
TS: I did my first ops in May. So we weren’t long at HCU. See. So —
CB: So your first ops were with the squadron. So you spend a couple months at HCU.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Would you?
TS: No. I don’t think as such. I don’t think it was as long as that.
CB: Ok.
TS: And the CO of the HCU was somebody you might have heard of. His name was Cheshire.
CB: Yeah.
TS: You’d already got that information.
CB: No. I know about him. Yes.
TS: He was ok. We went on a night trip and the engineer, as some people call them, had difficulty in as much as he had to tell me that according to his instruments there was something wrong with one of the engines. And so I said, ‘Well it doesn’t feel like it,’ I said. It’s all, because I had the engines all in sync. When there was two it was easy.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
TS: And you could tell if there was something wrong because even before the instruments would tell you because the engines would let you know. And anyway [pause] I’ve lost it.
CB: Yeah. So the engineer said there’s something wrong with one of the engines.
TS: One of the engines. Yes. And so I shut it down as we were told to do and then the next day we were told to go in front of the CO and he wanted to know why we’d come back early. And so we said we’d done it on what we thought were the instructions and we went through them. And he said [pause] and he said, ‘Well, according to the people on the ground here there’s nothing wrong with that engine.’ And so I turned to the engineer. I said, ‘Well you said this.’ ‘Just a minute. Just a minute.’ The CO said this.
CB: Yeah.
TS: He said, ‘We are here to find out why that happened. We’re not putting the finger at anybody,’ he said, ‘Because we’ve had this happen before where people have come back because they’ve thought there was something wrong with the engine and we were hoping that you might be able to let us know.’ And so I said to the engineer, I said, ‘Well, did you notice anything other than what you just said about the instrument?’ He said, ‘No. I’ve told you everything as I saw it.’ And so he said, ‘Well, thank you very much for calling,’ and he said, ‘This is what we’re here for is to try and find out why these engines are supposedly failing when they’re not.’ And I thought that’s fair enough. He just more or less showed us the door and we went out. And I thought that was fine.
CB: This is an LMF issue. Is it?
TS: Well, no. No.
CB: It’s not. In other words some people were calling engine fault because they didn’t want to go.
TS: No. I know. I know.
CB: But he was, you were relying on your experience and knowledge of the engines and he was relying on the instruments.
TS: Yes. Yes.
CB: So did you crack the code?
TS: Well, we never had anything like it again.
CB: These are radial engines aren’t they? They’re not the Merlins.
TS: No. These were the Merlins.
CB: Oh they were Merlins. Right.
TS: These were Merlins and you see I’d quite a bit of time on Merlins having done the, with the —
CB: Whitley.
TS: Whitleys. Having to listen to them for ten hours at a time over the Bay of Biscay etcetera. Well up to twelve hours we were airborne sometimes.
CB: Amazing.
TS: It makes you wonder how. How you do it. I expect I’d do it again if I had to.
CB: So you didn’t find out what was wrong with the —
TS: No.
CB: Why the –
TS: Why. But I think it was not just on the, on the training side of it. I think for some reason this was happening and whether it was anybody who was interfering with it on the ground or not I didn’t ask the question. But I think that’s probably what it was about. Very difficult things to find out.
CB: Well I did interview a man who had a man, had a ground engineer court martialled for threatening to upset the aircraft on a sortie. So there was an element of this sort of thing clearly.
TS: I hadn’t thought of that at all.
CB: As a bribe. Anyway, sorry, go on.
TS: Anyway, that was that. I thought nothing much more about it until it keeps cropping up about that engine failing. Supposedly failing when it didn’t. And we were learning.
CB: So this is, you’ve just joined 102 Squadron and this is when it’s come up. This isn’t the HCU. This is the squadron.
TS: Yeah. That was HCU.
CB: Oh it was the HCU.
TS: That was the HCU.
CB: Right. So you joined the squadron after the HCU.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Then what?
TS: Well, I had to go as a second pilot with [pause] I had done a second pilot when I was at the OTU. Not the OTU. The HCU.
CB: HCU. Yeah.
TS: And then I did another one when I was, when I joined the squadron. And then I was on my own and then I went flying as expected [pause] and this is when really when I need the book.
CB: Right. So what do you recall as your first operation?
TS: I think it was Essen. Happy Valley.
CB: How did that go?
TS: Well I’m just trying to think whether the Essen one was with the — no. Essen was very early and whether it was when I was going as second pilot or when I was just on my own. I don’t know.
CB: So, going as a second pilot is not a training flight around the country. It is actually an operation.
TS: Yes.
CB: Ok. What other highlights are there that stick in your mind about operations?
TS: Well, I was always of the [pause] aware of a number of aircraft all huddled together.
CB: In the bomber stream.
TS: Yeah. Or before that when people were taking off. We had three stations. Like one, two, three. Anyway. And if, say somebody is a bit slow in being able to get height he’s getting awful near that other station at times and I was very well aware of that. And so as soon as I was pointing as though I was where 10 Squadron was — one of our take off things more or less pointed directly at it. So, as soon as I got nicely airborne I made sure that I turned away and gradually got up and up and up.
CB: This is from Pocklington.
TS: That is from Pocklington. And I always tried to be the first one off. And I was approached once by the, an officer of one of the other flights who said, ‘You came and took off before the wing commander.’ I said, ‘Well I didn’t even know the wing commander was flying. So how the hell was I to do that?’ But I didn’t care. I was doing the op and so was the wing commander as far as I was concerned. And he didn’t take it very kindly. But I don’t know who the hell he was but he didn’t come and talk to me again and I think that’s one of the things where you had to get airborne and you had make sure you had sufficient speed to drag that load higher and higher and get out and if you got off first then you could get on the top of the spiral going up and therefore and you were less likely to hit anything.
CB: So ahead of you is Topcliffe is it?
TS: No. No. 10, 10 Squadron on —
CB: Binbrook.
TS: No. No. No. I had it just a minute ago and then the other one was Elvington.
CB: Yes.
TS: In the clutch. There was Elvington, us and the other one.
CB: Ok. Right. So, you’re climbing out.
TS: Yes.
CB: And making sure you get out of the way.
TS: Yes.
CB: How do you know when to head off?
TS: Well you only take off — you only head off when you’re supposed to be moving off. But if you are waiting for somebody to take off and waiting for somebody else to take off and waiting for somebody else. You’re going to have difficulty in getting off before you’re supposed to be setting course. So, as I say I used to be there and then supposedly been told off by this officer that I shouldn’t have taken off before the flight commander.
CB: You’re a flight sergeant by now are you?
TS: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
TS: I was offered a commission after we’d done about ten ops or something like that and I said, ‘No. We’ve all, we’ve decided. We all had a little chat and we all want to remain NCOs.’ Later on, in my life in the air force I said I would like to take a commission. So, somebody popped up and said well according to the records you refused a commission. And I said, ‘I didn’t refuse a commission as such. I said, I didn’t want to take a commission while we were flying as a crew on 102 Squadron.’ And it looks as though it got the rounds and I eventually got a commission. I was wanting a commission because I was instructing and nearly all of the pilots coming through were commissioned and some of them objected to being instructed by an NCO. I was only a warrant officer mind. But —
CB: So, we’ve talked about getting off and setting off. Tell us the rest of a sortie. So, you’ve all set off at the prescribed time.
TS: Yes.
CB: Which is how it was done because you can’t see the other aircraft can you?
TS: No.
CB: So, you’re off. Now what?
TS: Well we would still be climbing and so having been first off, I was normally up above anybody else from the area and then we would, when we got to the height we wanted and there was the big light on the Lincolnshire coast which you had as a glass which many people saw. But you had that as a guidance and if your navigator was doing his job properly and you were flying the aircraft properly and you flew on the headings that he asked you to fly at the same time and then you changed when he said that then he would know once he got right above that light exactly what the wind was.
CB: Right. So now you’re setting off from the light.
TS: Yeah.
CB: And you’re — what height are you by then?
TS: Well if we were still climbing as far as we could go and they used to say, ‘Well level off at eighteen thousand feet.’ If you got to seventeen thousand feet you were lucky some nights because I knew as soon as I’d lifted off from there that we were, if anything, over laden. I couldn’t prove anything though.
CB: Over laden with bombs or fuel?
TS: Well both together you see.
CB: Right.
TS: Yeah. You had the tanks full of fuel and then you would have different bomb arrangements on different trips.
CB: So, when you were briefing. Going backwards. When you went to your operation briefing you knew, did you, what would be your bomb load and the variety?
TS: Usually yes but you hadn’t always worked it out. There would be a slight difference in the high explosives and incendiaries. And when we went to some of the places in France we were full of incendiaries. I couldn’t quite work that out. And occasionally we were full of incendiaries but it was this, you would climb to eighteen thousand feet was just not on because we would not get to them.
CB: The fuel load was dictated by the target was it?
TS: Yes. Well if it was just Happy Valley it was, you just had all the tanks, all the main tanks full, I think. I don’t know whether there was any less in the tanks because you could get there and get back with having sufficient [pause] sufficient fuel. You would have sufficient fuel to get there and back.
CB: Right. Now fast forward to your trips. Which were the most notable ones would you say? Ops. In your mind.
TS: Well there is only the one that — we’ve mentioned it.
CB: That’s Peenemunde.
TS: Yeah. But we did have some others and I’d have to refer to the book again.
CB: Yeah.
TS: Because I haven’t registered that in my mind to keep.
CB: I see that on your map here. We’re looking at the map with sorties that Tom has put on and two of them show damage to German aircraft. Could you just talk us through that?
TS: Well that one there. We shot it down.
CB: Did the rear gunner do it or the mid-upper or both?
TS: Well we didn’t — at the time we didn’t have a a mid-upper.
CB: Oh right.
TS: Turret.
CB: Right.
TS: That was before we, we only had one lot of guns on the whole aeroplane.
CB: Right. So, you did well to shoot that down.
TS: Yes.
CB: Right.
TS: Well that was, the thing was because of the manoeuvres etcetera. And —
CB: So, what did you shoot down?
TS: I don’t know.
CB: But it was a German aeroplane anyway. Yeah.
TS: Well, that’s as it was recorded. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TS: Yeah. This one here.
CB: The further south. Yeah.
TS: The further south is where we were damaged by a fighter. We managed to continue to the [pause] for the rest of the journey.
CB: So, what happened there?
TS: Well, we knew we had by that time got one of these units on the plane which would tell us when there was an enemy aircraft nearby. And we were getting this message and I did some changes of course a little bit and changes of course a little bit and each time it would follow me so it meant that it was a German aircraft looking for me. Looking for us shall I say. Rather than just a casual one of ours getting in to that area.
CB: Yeah.
TS: And so having done that, I think, three times and it was still getting much closer each time because of the beep. You know the beep beep system that was there’s a, so I thought I would just hold it and hold it and hold it until it came very close and then I just whipped over to the one side.
CB: In a corkscrew?
TS: No. No. No. You couldn’t corkscrew in one of those. You might think you were doing it but it was so sluggish when you were up at that height with that weight you had.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
TS: It was minimal sometimes. You had to really decide it. And so, I decided that this one it was coming again. We turned and it followed and I had turned and it followed. I think the book will say exactly how many times. Anyway, and I decided right well I’ll see how far I can go on this and I just sat there. I just sat there and the noise was getting and then it was almost beep all the time you see instead of just getting the beep beeps. Time to go down so I just flung everything over to one side and just as I was doing that he was letting off his things but only sufficiently for it to hit us in the port outer wing. If I hadn’t moved those cannon shells would have been in the half empty petrol containers.
CB: Yeah. The tanks.
TS: Tanks. Petrol tanks. And I wouldn’t be here. No wonder I went bald early.
CB: So, in that circumstance did you break right or left?
TS: No. I didn’t break right. This was the normal things you start and most people start don’t they? It was the opposite way anyway. Yes. In those days. I’m just trying to remember which way it was. I think. Oh, they expected you to go left and I went right. That was it. And it was just a question of luck, I think, in lots of instances where the cannon shells went in to the outer wing instead of them hitting a petrol tank which would have caused it to blow up and that would have been it. It wasn’t ‘til we got out, ‘til I got out the plane and then there was a huddle of all the people looking at the outer wing and the expletives which were being said can’t be repeated at the moment. Still, my luck and, well there was just no aileron at all. The whole of the aileron thing had just disappeared and then of course there was further on was the damage to the wing but we only had torches. It was dark and I didn’t realise that the wing was all so badly — no wonder it was rather difficult to keep on course. And that was, I think, the reason why probably I was awarded the DFM because the —
CB: A good bit of flying. Yeah
TS: Well the next day when I went in to the flight office the squadron leader said that, ‘The wing commander wants to see you.’ And I said, ‘Why sir?’ He said, ‘Well I don’t know.’ He sounded a bit upset about something. ‘The wing commander wants to see you.’ Unfortunately, this chappy had only just replaced the flight commander and so I didn’t know him in any way at all. Just done, he’d just come from, I don’t think he was in the flight before he was made flight commander or anything. And so, anyway this wing commander came charging in and he said, ‘So this is the fella is it? This is the young fella is it?’ and he was going around me like this. I thought what’s he going to do next because he had something in his hand. He said, ‘Take that.’ And he gave, gave me the part of the spar of the wing and he said, ‘You see that?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ I didn’t know exactly what he was saying. I was thinking whoo whoo. He said, ‘Well look. That thing shows that a cannon shell went through there. If it had exploded then I wouldn’t be talking to you today because your whole,’ blankety blank, ‘Outer wing would have gone.’ And I’ve still got it. And that was that. Him coming in like that and he wanted to shake me by the hand and all the rest of it. I didn’t know what the hell to do. The wing commander shaking me by the hands or everything. And anyway it was, the aircraft was taken into the hangar and they couldn’t believe it. That I’d flown it back in the state it was in and I’ve still got a very awkward knee. Five hours.
CB: Pushing hard.
TS: Pushing hard on that. But I’m not going to charge them now.
CB: Oh. You’re not.
TS: Not after all this time.
CB: So no aileron. On the port side this is.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Big hole in the wing.
TS: Yeah. And we had to bomb and we came back with a proper picture.
CB: Picture. Brilliant.
TS: [unclear]
CB: So where were you going that day? Where were you bombing?
TS: Ah that’s.
CB: Was it Frankfurt? Was it? Or –
TS: I don’t know. I don’t know. I [pause] Yes, that would be the one. I know it was five hours after being hit.
CB: Oh. Was it?
TS: When I managed to get out of the plane.
CB: So, in that circumstance what’s it do to the flying characteristics of the aircraft? You’ve got more drag on that side. You’ve got less manoeuvrability.
TS: Well you just had, you just, it’s towards the end, the outside you see, which is less. I mean, there was less of it. The main part of the lift is where the engines are where you have that huge, yes, difference but you’ve only got a very narrow wing when you get towards the wingtip and that’s more for control rather than anything else. There was, there nothing left of the aileron, you see. There was just tangled bits. And it was, I think just the thing that I had that other people didn’t have. The feel of the thing would be almost immediate to me and I was already operating my foot before I realised we’d been hit so badly.
CB: Yeah. So, you were hit in the left. On the port side.
TS: Yeah.
CB: You’re turning around to the right and going down. Are you? You’d turn it.
TS: Well. Yes. I was already –
CB: Then you’ve got to recover from that.
TS: Yeah.
CB: So what did you do?
TS: Well I did what I would automatically do and I can’t tell you exactly what it was but then we got back on to course which was the thing. And now what do we do? We’re badly damaged. What shall we do? Should we drop our load and go back? And I thought well, no, that’s not a good idea at all because if you go back you’ll be all on your own going all the way back there and they’d be picking you off with no trouble at all. So, we just plodded on and bombed. And —
CB: So, you’re approaching the target with a damaged aircraft. What do you do?
TS: You just keep on going as though you’re not damaged. As far as possible. And although we were damaged we hadn’t lost a lot of — the aileron part had gone but the rest of the damage was not so severe but a lot of the — it’s a wonderful thing a wing in an aeroplane you see because if you’re up there and you’re flying and you have a little bit missing, well it doesn’t seem to matter quite so much as if you was trying to land or take off.
CB: So, your roll control is on one side only. In this case the right. The starboard side. What effect does it have on your direction ‘cause you’re pushing hard on the rudder so there’s been some –?
TS: Well you have to keep — this pushing on the rudder is not, you can’t get the same effect absolutely but if you put it so that you don’t have to press against the wind as it were then you are getting more efficient. And if you fiddle around and get that system by adjusting the — well it was the aileron this side. I know there’s no aileron there but you had it on the other side as well. And so, I had to, fortunately we were at the height as far as we could get and we lost a little bit of height but we didn’t lose all that much that we were going to be right underneath the whole of the [unclear]
CB: Right.
TS: And you just have to take what you can think of at the time and I seemed to think at the right, of the right things when anything happened over there and the rest of the crew of course were very good most of the time. The, the engineer although he’d never had much to do with aeroplanes he soon proved to be a very good man.
CB: I’m just thinking that here you are with a damaged plane. Normally your attitude is going to be as level as possible. You’ve got a damaged outer port wing. Are you to maintain control raising that so you’re not actually straight and level. You’re straight but not level. Or how do you compensate?
TS: Well I don’t really know but I did it.
CB: And when you’re over the target. Do you — after the target you hold for a bit to get over to take your picture. Are you then turning left against the damaged wing or do you turn right? What did you do?
TS: I can’t remember. It might be in the book but it was just what you’d normally — you see, we as a crew, because I said so, maintained going on after you had dropped your bombs whereas some people they just turned when they dropped their bombs to cut off and go like that where and I tried to explain it to many, well I say many, more than once to some of these people. I said, ‘If you’re all going as a bunch all along together like that and you drop your bombs and then you go along and you come to the turning point and then you’re turning everybody is turning. But if you for some reason want to turn and you’re here and there’s all these there there’s a likelihood that you’ll run into those.’ And they said, ‘Oh no. It wouldn’t.’ But I used to think it terrible that some of them were doing all these things which they shouldn’t do and then bragging about it.
CB: Bragging because of –?
TS: Bragging that they’d, they’d cut off the corner. As soon as they bombed they cut off the corner because if —
CB: To get away.
TS: If you were going towards your target —
CB: Yes.
TS: And then you go on a little bit and then you turn.
CB: Yes.
TS: Yes. Well they, in that then if they would turn immediately and they know you can’t be sure you got to that point properly if you hadn’t already worked it out. And so, I think some of the navigators would have a difficult time with some of the people.
CB: So fast forward now. You’ve dropped the bombs. You’ve had to push hard on the rudder pedal to get back. How do you set up for landing? How did that work?
TS: Well I had done it in this way. I managed to know that I could land it because at ten thousand feet I did a mock landing.
CB: Right.
TS: I went through all the process of seeing whether —
CB: Wheels down and everything.
TS: Yes. But I couldn’t be sure that I was absolutely straight like that but you could tell by the little bit of light you were getting whether it was getting — whether you were going straight or whether you were going differently. And I’d report to the, and it wasn’t the first time I’d come back with a damaged plane, you see and I’d report to the people on the ground and saying that I’d done a landing at eight thousand feet I think it was in one instance. So on and so forth. So that they would know that I could, I thought I could land but of course you couldn’t see really whether — if you were up here you couldn’t see whether you had been pushed on one side or you had lost another side or anything like that but the feel of the plane as I keep on saying to different people is far more important than lots of other things.
CB: So, you’re making your approach. What are you doing about speed compared with normal approach speed?
TS: Well, I’d know from the [pause] what I was doing up there what it felt like
CB: The practice.
TS: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
TS: Just the practice up there. And then I’d always add at least ten miles an hour on to that.
CB: Right.
TS: So, you couldn’t see exactly what it was but I was doing that here. I don’t know whether I’ve even mentioned it in the book but –
CB: Right.
TS: That’s what it was.
CB: So, you’re on finals. How do you feel then?
TS: Well, I had so much to do that all I felt was that if I keep on going as I’m going now and now and now when I’m doing some of this. The final movements
CB: Corrections.
TS: Corrections and all the rest of it and I would make sure that I was down to the, getting on towards the speed. The approach speed. Of course I was flying above the approach speed a lot of the time.
CB: Yeah.
TS: When I was doing manoeuvres. So that I had speed there to recover it if it wasn’t right. And I got down to that and then I would be making sure that I was going to get on to the thing and then I would level off because it would be the main runway probably had plenty of runway to do it but if you land it, if you always used to land in the immediate area then if you had to use a bit more land you had it there but for those people who come over and then still have to level out and they’re halfway down the runway before they touch down.
CB: Too high.
TS: They’ve got no leeway.
CB: No. So, you made sure you came right over the fence as it were.
TS: Yes.
CB: As near the end as possible.
TS: Yes.
CB: The beginning of the runway as possible.
TS: Yeah.
CB: So, you got that down ok.
TS: Yeah.
CB: You mentioned you’d had an aircraft damaged before. What was that one? Was that flak or fighter?
TS: I’m not quite sure. We. We had, we had the engine. An engine pack up. And that was much more serious than anything else because it was before the target and we were losing height and we couldn’t do anything else but do it. Drop it.
CB: So, what did you do?
TS: Well —
CB: How many, how far short of the target are you when the engine packs up?
TS: This one was, it was —
CB: Where were you going?
TS: We were going to Happy Valley.
CB: Right.
TS: So, it’s just over the border and we, by turning to the port I could drop the bombs in the Zuider Zee and then I reckoned I could get back if I just was out of the, out of the gaggle.
CB: Yeah.
TS: I thought I could. As far as I can remember that’s where I was thinking I could get back without any trouble much
CB: So which engine was it?
TS: It was the [pause] I think it was the starboard outer.
CB: Right.
TS: And shortly after that I had a different plane. I think that was S for Sugar and after that I had another one and the —
CB: What? Another engine failure?
TS: No. Another plane.
CB: Another plane. Right.
TS: Yeah. And then I did most of my ops when the new Mark 2 series 1A came in. They gave me another aircraft and that was a W and of course it was the finer points which had been added. Just a small amount on the aircraft but it was a big difference to flying.
CB: Was it? What had they changed?
TS: Well, instead of having the turret at the front they did away with that and they just put a covering over. It wasn’t very good in as much as it wasn’t in with the rest of the plane. It seemed to be a sort of a bang. Not a bang. It just didn’t feel right to me.
CB: Because it upset the aerodynamics.
TS: Yes. Yes. But when they brought the series 1A in then they had the new front entirely and it was much better because the, with the Mark 1 or the Mark 2 when they still had the front turret it wasn’t at all. You know there was an awful lot of resistance around that because of the turret. I mean it wasn’t at all streamlined really was it?
CB: No. No. So we’ve talked about incidents there. What about Peenemunde? What was significant about going to Peenemunde?
TS: It was the way the people approached us about it. They said that we had to do the job tonight or else you would go for every night after night after night until you’d done it and going in as we did at eight thousand feet [pause] but you see there was practically no resistance at all. There was a sort of a searchlight but nothing very much at all. And the — I don’t think that they thought, I think the Germans didn’t consider us going there anyway. No defence much.
CB: So, there were layers of bombers. What was above you?
TS: Well no. The thing was that we thought we were all going to go in at the same height.
CB: Right.
TS: But we from 4 Group probably went in at the same height as the rest of 4 Group but some of the others went at probably at a different height to us. I don’t know. It was a question I’ve been wanting to ask but I’ve never got around to finding out what they went and everybody was supposed to be going in at the same. You see we would — 4 Group would be in that time. Four minutes, you see. And we were all supposed to bomb within that four minutes. All 4 Group. And I don’t know. It’s who could I ask? Who could give me the answer?
CB: Were you following Pathfinders? Or straight bombing?
TS: We were following Pathfinders until we got there and then we were supposed to be bombing any of the main buildings because we were mostly high explosives. So we were told that there would be some buildings in a certain area and we had to bomb those and according to the result of our photograph we did what we were told.
CB: Right. Now, you’ve got a picture of the target where there’s a bomber that can be seen below. So what’s that?
TS: That was a twerp who wasn’t obeying orders is all I can say. It’s a Halifax. And what the heck that man was doing flying there against the whole of the flow of the — I don’t know. I don’t know whether he’d get back. It is a Halifax isn’t it?
CB: He’s flying your way, is he?
[pause]
CB: It looks as though he’s in the same direction as you so he could end up with bombs straight through him.
TS: Yes. Yes. Yes. Well we were bombing on the height we were supposed to be bombing and he is below. Yeah.
CB: Quite a long way.
TS: I thought that that photograph was one, somewhere I’ve got one where where was somebody going the opposite direction
CB: Oh, is there really? So, when you get to a target. You’re in a stream. It’s in the dark. How do you know if everybody is on the same track?
TS: Well the only persons who would know whether they were on the wrong track would be those who were on the wrong track.
CB: And they’d be on the wrong track for what reason?
TS: I can’t — I haven’t discussed it with any of them who were on the wrong track. Shall I put it that way.
CB: Ok.
TS: But some of the comments on debriefing.
CB: Such as?
TS: ‘Wizard prang. Wizard prang.’ Yah yah yah. When everybody else is being, sitting at the table and quietly talking and there would another lot sitting and then this fella would come out and every night he’d come back, ‘Wizard prang.’ ‘Wizard prang,’
CB: Same man or different?
TS: Yes.
CB: What was your —
TS: My bomb aimer had a different version of his wizard prang because he found out if they could find out where the bombs had been dropped. So that’s something which I, you know, but it was, whether he knew that he was doing it all wrong or not I don’t know.
CB: What was your last operation?
TS: Well, I think it was on my knee [laughs]
CB: [laughs] So, we’ll go back to the flying operation then.
TS: Yeah. Sorry about that.
CB: That’s alright.
TS: I can’t help it. Anyway, it’s [pause] I don’t know where we are as far as what you want.
CB: Right. So what we’re on is, you’re on ops as 102.
TS: Yeah.
CB: And how many ops did you do in total with 102 Squadron?
TS: Well you see I did those ops over the Bay of Biscay.
CB: With Coastal Command. Yeah.
TS: They counted as a half an op when we were in Bomber Command.
CB: Oh right.
TS: We thought that later. But it was only half. So there was four. It was, we were all on, all the rest were on Halifaxes. There were eight on the Whitleys and then the twenty six on the four engine jobs.
CB: Ok. So, the last four-engined on the Halifax. Where was that to?
TS: I can’t really remember.
CB: Ok.
TS: Without looking it up.
CB: So, you finished with 102 Squadron because you’ve ended —
TS: Yeah.
CB: Your prescribed thirty ops.
TS: Yeah.
CB: What did you do next? First of all, when was it?
TS: It was in October ’43.
CB: Ok.
TS: Early October ’43.
CB: And what did you do after that?
TS: Became an instructor.
CB: With whom?
TS: 81 OTU.
CB: Which was where?
TS: The other side of the Pennines.
CB: What? In Shropshire. So, what was the aircraft?
TS: I went back to Whitleys. But it wasn’t Bomber Command. It was 38 Group. You know what they did?
CB: Yeah. They were the tactical air force ones were they?
TS: 38 Group were the people who –
CB: Maquis.
TS: Towed gliders.
CB: Oh towed gliders. Ok.
TS: And dropped supplies to the Maquis.
CB: Yeah.
TS: We were teaching people how to tow gliders and I’d never flown one before.
CB: How did you feel about that?
TS: I was still just relieved to have completed a tour of ops that I thought well I can beat this one if I can do that and it was alright.
CB: Did you — as a prelude to that did they get you to fly a glider?
TS: Yes.
CB: How did you feel about that?
TS: Bloody awful.
CB: In the co-pilots seat?
TS: I don’t know. Now. Yes. It was with the co-pilot’s.
CB: What was the glider? A horsa.
TS: A horsa.
CB: So how many trips did you do in that?
TS: Only the one.
CB: Just one. That was plenty I should think.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Right. Then you went on to towing.
TS: Well yes, we had to instruct the people. They had to do an OTU as a Bomber Command OTU.
CB: Right. First.
TS: For all the different. First. And then they would do the towing which wasn’t very much really. The worst was towing it at night when there was night towing and it looked as though my name had come out of the book to do this and you just, with a plane and you had a series of pilots, RAF. And a series of pilots, glider pilots coming to a certain place in the aerodrome where you then had an experienced pilot in both places and those who were just learning in the others. At night.
CB: Sounds. How did you feel about that?
TS: Not very good because it so happened that my pupil was pulled out of the hat to be the first one and then I was there doing it all ruddy night until I got so far and then I just — some of the pupils didn’t even, I don’t think they knew how to fly the plane at night without anything else there. They weren’t, they weren’t from, on our flight I know that. And I don’t know how they managed and I didn’t like to interrupt too much but once I was just a little bit and all of a sudden I realised we’re not on course ‘Ahhhhh,’ there were those bloody trees there. And I looked out and I could see the trees. Just the top of the trees just going underneath the aeroplane.
CB: Yeah.
TS: In the little light that we had on the front of the aeroplane. I just relaxed a little bit. Well you couldn’t just lift it. You had a glider on behind. So, it took you ages and ages to get any height anyway but you had a lot of trees there and a lot of trees there but you were supposed to be going down there and he was over here. And so I was too tired to act properly.
CB: Go on.
TS: So, when I came down I said to the, you see it was a coordinated thing. The pilot. The pupils coming to go in this plane and there were the pupils coming to go in the glider and all sorts of things and then you had to, after dropping the glider you had to drop the rope and then you had to come around again and get down and then you had to taxi around and pick another one up. And I came into the pointer. Switched the engine off. I said to the sergeant in charge of the plane to make sure that the plane was ok with the, for the — it was quite a gaggle of all different people busy there and I just walked off. And I was expecting somebody would come and ask me why. And I waited and I waited and I waited and nobody came. But I was never asked to do it again.
CB: So, what did you do next?
TS: Well we were having, still doing the normal OTU but it was this flying at night. Towing gliders at night. Off at night. And when I pointed it out they said, ‘Well really, they didn’t think they wanted to take off at night with the gliders. They only wanted to take off in the day time.’ And yet we were doing this at night.
CB: So were there fatalities flying at night? Glider towing.
TS: I don’t know.
CB: Oh.
TS: I don’t know.
CB: Not in the time you saw.
TS: No.
CB: No.
TS: But I was wondering why we were doing it if the people on the front line said they didn’t intend to do anything like that.
CB: But for D-day of course, they did fly at night.
TS: Yeah. Well but I was very irate and I just left it at that.
CB: You were a warrant officer at this stage.
TS: I think so. Yes.
CB: So, the sergeant’s going to be careful.
TS: I didn’t, didn’t fling it around at all.
CB: No.
TS: But you had to be friendly with the glider pilots. You had to be friendly with the pupils coming along. And you had to gently ease them if they were being a bit stupid because shouting at them would have been no good.
CB: So were you flying with a student pilot on the Whitley at the same time as a student pilot on the glider?
TS: Yes. At night.
CB: So, you’ve got a double whammy potentially.
TS: Yes.
CB: Right. I’ve done glider towing myself and I know how long it takes to get up. Right. So, you continued with the daytime OTU which could be dangerous in itself.
TS: Yes. Well I was, I was the, on the OTU and we were on. I did my share of night flying and all the rest of it and I didn’t mind. I did enquire about going back on ops and I was bluntly told that, well, ‘No. You’re here and you’re going to stay here because we want you here.’ And then later on I decided that, well, I did, when I was flying on ops I did refuse the offer of a commission because we were stated, I respected the, I told you at the beginning we were going to remain NCOs all the time. Well, that seemed as though it followed in my papers somewhere along the line that I had refused a commission when offered. But I managed to overcome that and —
CB: So, when were you commissioned?
TS: During the war.
CB: Yeah.
TS: [laughs] Seriously I can’t give you a right date.
CB: No.
TS: Without looking at it on the —
CB: Yeah. So then did that change things? I mean, you were, you said that you were instructing pilots who were commissioned.
TS: Yes.
CB: And that’s what prompted you to —
TS: Yeah.
CB: Re-apply as it were.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Well to apply. So how did that change things once you were commissioned?
TS: Well, in the main I found that I was commissioned and in quite a few instances I was told I hadn’t been to the right school. To my face.
CB: By the commissioned pilots being instructed.
TS: Yeah.
CB: Right.
TS: But I was, it didn’t worry me too much because I knew I could fly the pants off them all.
CB: How did you put that one down then?
TS: Pardon?
CB: How did you put down that comment?
TS: Well.
CB: Or you just left it?
TS: I just left it. The worst part of my career was after the war ended.
CB: Ok.
TS: Because there was a decided inflow of, of the type I felt I’d, you know, fallen out with. They didn’t accept me as being the right person to be a commissioned officer and they were just narked about it and so I thought I was hoping to make the RAF my thing so I decided no. I’d come out. And another things was I was wanting to get married and I was stupid enough not to ask her to marry me during the war when she really wanted to get married then. We were engaged. But we didn’t marry in the end.
CB: When did you get married? After you came out though.
TS: After we came out. Yes. I got myself a job.
CB: So just going back. You were at the OTU. Was that — did you keep in the OTU until you were demobbed or did you go somewhere else after the OTU?
TS: Well the OTU got more and more interested in the towing side of things and I was still an OTU but it was a different from when we started towing and all the rest of it. And it was a different thing as I say. And it had advanced considerably to what it was and I think it was very good and done properly by the book or if there wasn’t a book by what was recognised. It was a good thing. On one occasion the, there was a Halifax came and landed because I think it had engine failure. Supposed engine failure or something and so then they repaired it but it was in the way so they wanted to move it and they didn’t have the thing they could move it. They didn’t have a tractor that could move it so they said, ‘Oh well Tom used to fly on those. He’d be alright.’ So, I thought, right. I very nearly. No. I didn’t. I was very tempted. I was very tempted. I thought, no. You can’t really do it on your own, you see. So I —
CB: What? You can’t fly the aeroplane on your own.
TS: No. You could.
CB: But it would be dangerous.
TS: It would be dangerous because you couldn’t feed fuel or anything like that you see. You didn’t have the instruments you could check to see if they were all working.
CB: Oh right.
TS: So, to a certain degree you had the instruments but it’s —
CB: So, what did you do?
TS: So I had to collect [pause] the headquarters were sort of here. Around in the —
CB: One side of the airfield.
TS: Yes. Well, no. The hangars and that were there and then there were the station. The CO’s office and one or two bits and pieces there.
CB: Another site.
TS: And they wanted it moved. Wanted this aeroplane moved to over there. So, I was, I was asked if I would do it. I said, ‘Do you want me to pull it?’ And eyes all around. They said, No,’ they said, ‘We would like you to, if you could start two of the engines can you take it.’ I said,’ Yes. Well. You’ve done two engines haven’t you? Why don’t you take it?’ Sort of thing. And they were getting a bit fed up of me being awkward and I was only teasing them really but as we came along then I said right. We might as well have all four engines going so and that and then I turned it partly into the field but with my back right to the flight, not the flight commander’s office but the wing commander’s office. And he had made one or two cracks about people, you know, coming from the ground and being commissioned and all the rest of it so I put the plane right like that and his office was here.
CB: Behind it.
TS: Behind it. And I blasted those engines. I knew he was in the office.
CB: So, he got a lot of noise.
TS: Yes.
CB: And a lot of wind.
TS: Yes. And so somebody said, ‘You know you shouldn’t be doing that.’ Well, if he didn’t want me to do that somebody else should have done it shouldn’t they. It’s just one of those things where I perhaps go just beyond the point I should have stopped at.
CB: So were you a flying officer or a flight lieutenant at this stage?
TS: Oh, I was only a flying officer. But it’s, I don’t see why they couldn’t just jump in to a plane and taxi the damned thing.
CB: They hadn’t got the right certification had they?
TS: Well. Perhaps not. As I say there was no instructor to tell them what to do.
CB: So where? What — are we talking about 1945 still?
TS: Yes.
CB: So, you didn’t come out until ’46. So what were you doing?
TS: Well I was doing this but I was getting more and more frustrated with the attitude of the people there and it got to the stage when it was more important what was going on in the officer’s mess in the evening as to whether you could fly in the night or fly or anything and it was, if there were any targets to be met well they definitely weren’t being met. I wasn’t flying my pupils as much as I would have liked to have flown them and all this sort of thing going on so I thought I’d come out of it. Wasn’t, wasn’t done.
CB: The people who were converting on to glider towing. They had all done a tour had they? That’s why they were commissioned.
TS: The?
CB: Well, you were instructing.
TS: Yeah.
CB: People who already had experience on tours. On heavies. Were they?
TS: No.
CB: Oh.
TS: No.
CB: What were they?
TS: Well —
CB: Or on twins or some kind.
TS: Yes. Yes, they were. Some of them were coming straight through the thing. There were some experienced people and you could, before you’d taken off you realised that it was an experienced person. Even if you hadn’t been told. And it was more than awkward on more than one occasions where I didn’t really want to pass some people but they said they had to be passed if they’d got that far. So, I made a point of making a point of it so that they couldn’t say well you didn’t say.
CB: They could record it.
TS: And so anyway in the, after the war had ended and I thought of applying, I was applying for a permanent commission and there was just no chance at all.
CB: No.
TS: Came out.
CB: So where were you demobbed and when was that?
TS: Where was I demobbed? I don’t know exactly.
CB: Because you had to go and pick you suit up.
TS: Actually, I was driving a car. I’d got an old car and one of the chappies — I was in the same billet as him and he was the NCO in charge of the transport, the ground transport and so he made sure my car was ok. That was about the one thing I got, shall I say. Rather than just being there and having the general things. He said, ‘Of course I can’t do it on site,’ but he had to send off some of the vehicles outside the thing to somebody who was a local man doing repairs and my car went along with that but he didn’t know about it.
CB: He never heard a thing.
TS: That was the only thing I got like that.
CB: So, you left in ‘46. What time of the year?
TS: I can’t really remember that. It was pretty good weather. I can’t really remember.
CB: And you got a job. How quickly did you got a civilian job after you left?
TS: Before my leaving.
CB: Terminal leave.
TS: Terminal leave. Yes. Was up.
CB: Where did you? How did you get the job? And what was it?
TS: Well I came down south here because there was nothing up north really for me. From what I thought. And all I wanted was a job. I mean I was enough, far enough around the bend to go completely around there if I didn’t get a job. And it —I tried. My parents had moved from the Dales in to Darlington. My father had given up farming and was running the the animal auction market at Darlington which was quite a big job. And he wanted me to join with him to do that and I thought he’s still a young man. I wouldn’t be getting anywhere for years. I decided that I didn’t want to stay at home and do that. And I came to — one of my crew was in West London and so I came down and asked him about it and he said, he said, ‘Well all sorts of jobs going,’ he said. It’s what you’re even qualified for. They don’t want pilots here. They want bus drivers.’ I said, ‘I don’t want to drive a bus.’ I knew he was only joking anyway. But in the end I got a job at EMI and it so happened he was working at EMI but he had no control over the things. And he had said to me, ‘Don’t get a job at EMI whatever you do.’ I went around all sorts of places and I have sympathy for anybody who is in a similar situation now. If they want a job and they keep going around different places and then they can’t get it. There was one there he said, ‘There’s one or two jobs going here,’ he said, ‘But the thing is that it’s likely that I’ll be retiring soon,’ he said. ‘And you’d have to wait a bit but if I take you on you can have my job.’ And when I went in to it a bit more I decided, no, I didn’t want it. And then I took a job in EMI and I said, ‘Now look I don’t want to sit behind a table all day long shifting bits of paper. I want something on the move.’ So, I finished up half the time doing something on the table and the next was to keep a department of EMI Records going. Which meant there were several aspects towards the keeping the smooth running going and you had to be sure you got all the bits and pieces coming and going. It wasn’t tremendously, shall we say, a money-making job but it kept me going. I could go on. It’s about time you had a cup of tea isn’t it?
CB: That’s sounds —
JS: My knee’s getting set.
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo. Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tom Sayer
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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02:30:30 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASayerT151202
Conforms To
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Pending review
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
United States
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Tom Sayer was accepted in to the Royal Air Force as an apprentice and began training as a pilot as soon as he was old enough. He trained in the United States and on his return he was detached to Coastal Command. He completed eight operations patrolling for submarines before being posted to 102 Squadron at RAF Pocklington where he completed his tour. His aircraft was badly damaged on one operation but he continued to the target and managed to get the aircraft back.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
10 OTU
102 Squadron
81 OTU
aircrew
Blenheim
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Distinguished Flying Medal
Halifax
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Horsa
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Pocklington
RAF St Eval
RAF Upwood
Stearman
submarine
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/360/5766/AFreethR160531.2.mp3
cf06e920ffcf1f6cdf9d9f0b1e811d60
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Freeth, Reg
Reg Freeth
R Freeth
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Reginald Freeth (b. 1921, 1319543 Royal Air Force) his logbook and a squadron photograph. Reg Freeth trained in South Africa and served as a bomb aimer with 61 Squadron first at RAF Syerston then at RAF Skellingthorpe.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reginald Freeth and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Freeth, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 31st May 2016 I’m in Goring on Thames with Reg Freeth and his wife Blodwyn and we are going to talk about his time in the RAF and the days before and after. So what are your earliest recollections Reg? What do you remember first in life? Where you were born and what did your parents do?
RF: I was born in Port Talbot I was one of a family of seven children I had two brothers and four sisters, my father was working as a shipper in the Port Talbot docks and he was born in Cardiff where my grandfather was employed on the Great Western Railway it was being built from England ino South Wales at the time this is back in the nineteenth century, my grandfather was born in Malmsbury in Wiltshire but he moved to Cardiff because of the work on the Great Western Railway of course my father was born in Cardiff then my father moved to Port Talbot and worked in the docks, I had two brothers one was working on the railway and the other one was in the Merchant Navy as a chief engineer and my four sisters they were doing domestic work, my eldest brother unfortunately he er he was shipwrecked in Nova Scotia, Halifax, Nova Scotia on his first voyage but he survived I I er forget the name of the er cable car or something and er he survived the war but unfortunately he died at a quite young age because he had er.
BF: Its called emphysema, emphysema
RF: It was due to the er he had cancer of the lungs
CB: Right.
RF: Due due to the work in the ships in the er ships engineer he was only fifty seven, my younger brother he died when he was about seventy three, all my sisters have died, I’m then only survivor now I am ninety four years of age.
CB: So where did you go to school?
RF: I went to the Central Boys School and er I passed my er examination and at the age of eleven and went to the Duffryn Grammar School which is the same school as Richard Burton went to but I was older than Richard Burton and I was leaving the school when he was starting so I never got to know him that well I knew the family because they were from Pontrhydyfen [laughter] which is where my wife was born and my wife my wife’s family were living in the same street as Richard Burton’s family [laughs] in Pontrhydyfen, but um I passed my matriculation I think they called it at the time and er my headmaster suggested I should apply to go to the Civil Service in fact he gave me the money for the postage to stamp to er to send the application form away I couldn’t afford that at the time, and um I started work in the Civil Service in Swansea on 2nd January 1939 er whilst I was working there I was employed in the Labour Exchange as it was then and er of course the war broke out in September 39 and er when I was er eighteen nineteen twenty I tried to get into the Fleet Air Arm I wanted to er join the aircrew Fleet Air Arm I went down to I think it was Portsmouth I think it was Portsmouth for a medical examination and an interview and I failed the medical examination because I had a defective er bone in my nose and I couldn’t I couldn’t pass the test so I came back and I thought well I’m not going to wait anymore I’ll go I had an operation and I applied to go to the Royal Air Force, I joined the Royal Air Force on 4th August 4th August 41.
BF: Do you want a pen?
CB: Yes
RF: Yes want a pen want a pen top top top top all the other ones are bust.
CB: Thank you. 4th August 41?
RF: 4th August 41 um I went to St. John’s Wood in London um I was there for about three weeks I think and we were just getting um our inoculations and things and er doing a little bit of training we used to go into the park there Regents Park was it we used to have our meals there we used to march into the park have our meals and then come back to St. John’s Wood living in a posh house then and um I think we went on to Torquay er I don’t know what it was called like an instruction training.
CB: ITW was it initial training?
RF: ITW initial training wing.
CB: That’s it okay.
RF: Initial training wing went down to Torquay um I can’t remember how long must have been there for about three months and then we went up to Greenock in Scotland to er catch a boat er out to South Africa er we joined the convoy there and unfortunately our ship had problems and it couldn’t keep up with the convoy it had to drop out and we were left on our own in the North Atlantic we got to Freetown Sierra Leone on Christmas Day 1941 we were there for a few days and then we joined another convoy and went on to Durban in South Africa, we were billeted in tents at Claremont Racecourse on the outskirts of Durban for about a fortnight and then we went up to Littleton Camp near Pretoria er where we were sort of we were joined by all other recruits air crew recruits and we were sorted into groups and assigned to different air schools in South Africa for training as air observers, I was er sent to 47 Air School in Queenstown Cape Province and er when I completed my training I did navigation, bombing and gunnery and I passed all three and I was awarded the Air Observers Badge I went down to Cape Town to await transport back to the UK and er we got back er er um let me think.
CB: How long was the training?
RF: Sorry?
CB: How many months were the training?
RF: Um it was about eight months.
CB: So late 42?
RF: 1942 yes and then we were sent to Millom, RAF Millom um because during that period the aircraft used in the Royal Air Force for bombing missions changed from a small plane like a Wellington to the big plane Lancaster, Halifax, and Stirling, and they split the jobs the air observer’s job and we were sorted out in Millom to join the crew to carry on then er our training but the air observers that were trained in South Africa some were made observers, some were made navigators, and some were made bomb aimers, I was made a bomb aimer and very very fortunately my friend that I was with when I joined the Royal Air Force in St. John’s Wood, but he was trained at a different school in South Africa, he became the navigator and became the bomb aimer in the same crew so we were very fortunate and er we finished up after our initial training OTU and joined 61 Squadron at Syerston [?] in May 1943.
CB: Where was your OTU?
RF: Um Bruntingthorpe is it um I was stationed at Wing for a while near Aylesbury but I think most of my training was at um Bruntingthorpe.
CB: What about the HCU where did you go for that? The HCU where was the Heavy Conversion Unit?
RF: Er it was on the outskirts of Newark can’t think of the name there was an aerodrome there on the outskirts of Newark I can’t think of the name.
CB: Okay. So you joined 61 Squadron?
RF: We joined 61 Squadron in.
CB: At Syerston?
RF: May 1943 at Syerston.
CB: Right. Okay.
RF: Okay.
CB: And what were you flying?
RF: Er Lancasters, I trained on Manchesters and Wellingtons.
CB: So you came back from South Africa and then you went to your OTU how did you do the crewing up because you met your friend again there?
RF: Well we were sorted out in Millom on our return from South Africa.
CB: Into crews?
RF: And er we weren’t given any option we were just put into crews and fortunately I found I was with my best friend and he was the navigator.
CB: What was his name?
RF: Jamie Barr, Jamie Barr.
CB: Good, okay. So what about the rest of the crew what were they like?
RF: They were very good we were very very friendly got on very well um the flight engineer was George Turnbull he was er I think he used to live in near Northampton, the pilot that we had at the time on our first er commission on Syerston was Jamie James James Graham he was a Scots I think he was from Girvan in Ayrshire he was Scots, Jamie Barr was a Scot so we got on very well the Welsh and the Scots and the English we all mixed up well, Eric Walker was the um tail gunner er that’s about it isn’t it.
CB: Mid upper, mid upper who was mid upper, who was the mid upper?
RF: I can’t think of his name now but he didn’t stay long with us he was taken off ops.
CB: Okay so why was that?
RF: Finished up with Reg Bunnion then, Reg Bunnion was our mid upper oh now he was the wireless operator he was the wireless operator, er Jim Chapman was the er Jim Chapman was the er mid upper, Reg Bunnion was the er wireless operator because his name was Reg and mine was Reg they called him Bunny not to get mixed up you know on the intercom.
CB: Very important.
RF: Called him Reg.
CB: So what was the name of the original mid upper then?
RF: I can’t think of his name now but er he was taken out for LMF.
CB: He was right. So how did that manifest itself was that at the Heavy Conversion Unit at in the Squadron or when?
RF: It was on the squadron.
CB: What exactly happened?
RF: No idea.
CB: I mean in the aeroplane were you conscious of this, how conscious of you were you of it in the plane on opertions did you know about it?
RF: Yes.
CB: What did he do?
RF: Well he just didn’t want to fly anymore on ops and he refused to go on operations, I think they called it LMF wasn’t it lack of moral fibre.
CB: What did they do to him?
RF: Well he was taken off stripped of his sergeants er rank and er he was given just menial jobs then I don’t know what he was doing we lost touch with him.
CB: They took him away from the airfield?
RF: Yes took him away yes we lost touch with him.
CB: So when he was removed from the crew and had his brevets removed how did they do that did they do that in a parade or what did they do?
RF: It just happened we didn’t know what had gone on you know we weren’t told much.
CB: Okay. So how did the crew get on?
RF: We got on quite well and er I think it was Reg Bunnion I said wasn’t it took his place.
CB: Yes.
RF: I can’t think now [laughs] getting all mixed up.
BF: Yes it’s a wonder you can remember what did happen.
CB: So the crew was put together there was no choice?
RF: Yeah we were still in the same crew and we had a replacement he was the mid upper gunner.
CB: Right.
RF: He was the mid upper gunner he was the replacement I think it was Reg Bunnion that replaced him.
CB: Yeah right, and um how did the training go initially ‘cos you were in the OTU to begin with what did you do in the OTU?
RF: Well we were doing um practice bombing and er night flights covering the whole country really we were going up to Scotland, North England.
CB: So some of it was cross country navigation was it, some of it was navigation cross country?
RF: Yes yes yes it was very good you know it was good training and er we had a bit of a problem when we were doing one of our practice bombing missions at er Whittlesea bombing range near March Isle of Ely and we had to bale out.
CB: Really, what happened?
RF: Er one of the flares that’s attached to the inside of the fuselage of the can’t remember whether it was a Wellington or a Manchester now um it was come off its hook and slipped down behind the aileron controls which run along the fuselage and er the pilot asked us to check he was having difficulty um flying the plane to see what happened we found the flare had stuck behind the aileron controls and he said to try and remove it we we tried as much as we could and we couldn’t get it out so he told us we’d have to bale out he was a trainee he was a trainer pilot and he wasn’t carrying a a parachute the tail gunner didn’t get the message from the pilot clearly enough and he came back on the intercom to the pilot and said ‘what’s happening?’ he could see all the parachutes passing the end the tail of the plane and the pilot told him to bale out but the tail gunner didn’t realise you know what was going on at the time and er he was the last one to get out of the plane he landed in the WAAF’s quarters somewhere [laughter] he was lucky.
CB: What happened to the pilot?
RF: He made an emergency landing at RAF Wittering and er we were told that he died a few months later on an operational trip, but um all of us survived our er baling out we landed in er ploughed fields around that area and we were collected by the police from March Isle of Ely and they took us back to base it was er 6.20 p.m. on Sunday 20th December 1942 that’s when the er baling out took place [laughs].
CB: So on that flight had you released your practice bombs beforehand or not?
RF: No we hadn’t and I landed in a ploughed field it was pitch dark of course at that time 6.20 p.m. and I er lost one of my flying boots on the way down, I unfastened my parachute and it blew away before I had a chance to grab it, I walked across the field there was an irrigation ditch on the side of the field I waded through that no sign of any houses there so I walked up a lane and eventually I came to a farmhouse I knocked at the door and a lady came to answer it I told her what had happened she didn’t believe me she shut the door she thought I was a German because I’d blue eyes and blond hair you see [laughter] and er eventually I persuaded her to phone the police and that’s how the police came to pick us up.
CB: Then what so you’ve got a crew without a pilot or the pilot came back for a while did he?
RF: No he was he was the er the officer training.
CB: Oh he was training.
RF: He was training the pilot.
CB: Right.
RF: Our pilot survived.
CB: Oh he did.
RF: I was lucky because um my parachute opened inside the plane.
CB: That was dangerous how did that happen?
RF: Well I’d er when the pilot told me to bale out I lifted the the escape hatch and I couldn’t remember where the er rip cord was so I put my hand on the rip cord, we weren’t given much training you know on using the parachute, I found the rip cord and a slipstream came in to the plane under the escape hatch caught my hand and pulled the rip cord and the parachute began to open I could see the silk and I put my arms around it and I jumped out.
CB: Lucky.
RF: And er.
CB: You’d just clipped it on had you, you had just clipped it onto your webbing?
RF: Yeah it was clipped on it was clipped on ready but the rip cord had opened the parachute slightly there was just a trace of the er silk I could see it and I thought well I’m going to die I might as well jump out and die, so I put my arms round the parachute and er jumped out of the plane and I got on all right, but we were told then that er the ground crew said ‘who was the silly b that b who er pulled the rip cord inside the plane?’ they found the rip cord there inside the plane they didn’t complain [laughs].
CB: Did you count to three before you er let go with your arms?
RF: I just leapt out I leapt out.
CB: And how long before you moved your arms?
RF: Oh well it must have opened out you know as soon as I jumped out then the wind the wind from the Jetstream was there.
CB: Right. So everybody was uninjured?
RF: Yeah everybody survived yes we all survived.
CB: And er the instructing pilot er did they give him any special award?
RF: No no he thought because he was an instruct an instructor that he didn’t need a parachute but he was lucky he made an emergency landing and survived it was the fault of this er what do they call it?
CB: The flare.
RF: The flare.
CB: How did that become dislodged?
RF: It just must have broken the hook or something they were normally hooked up or something.
CB: But it didn’t ignite it didn’t go off?
RF: No no it didn’t go off it just got stuck behind the aileron controls.
CB: So what was the purpose of that flare in the bomb bay where would you normally drop the flare?
RF: I don’t I don’t think I ever dropped one.
CB: So how then you went straight back to training did you?
RF: Yes just carried we had a week’s leave then as it was Christmas time and er we just carried on training after that and eventually you know in the May we were assigned to 61 Squadron.
CB: Right so that was at Syerston?
RF: Syerston.
CB: And er what was your first raid?
RF: Er it was a nickel raid dropping leaflets I’ve made a list out here.
CB: Okay I’ll stop just for a mo.
BF: Shall I make a cup of coffee or tea.
CB: That would be lovely thank you.
BF: What would you like?
CB: Right so we’ve now looked at the list and your first trip was to Clermont Ferrand?
RF: Ferrand.
CB: Ferrand and er that was a nickel so you were dropping leaflets?
RF: Yes.
CB: What about the next one Dortmund what was that?
RF: Well before you go onto the second one.
CB: Oh yeah okay.
RF: Our navigator got lost and er we had to er call an emergency we were told to go to we were directed then got lost with his navigation and er we were told to go to Colerne is it? Colerne near Bath
CB: Colerne yes.
RF: And we were shown the way there to get there we landed in Colerne when I got out of the plane I asked where we were and I was told Colerne I thought they said Cologne [laughter] and I started running across the airfield [laughs] I thought we’d landed somewhere else you see in Cologne anyhow that was just our first experience [laughter] it was a funny one.
CB: Absolutely yeah okay. Then Dortmund?
RF: Dortmund yes mostly in the Ruhr in the Ruhr where we were bombing.
CB: Yes right, and was there any difference in targets and were some targets more difficult than others?
RF: Not really we’d er we didn’t have any trouble flying out we weren’t attacked at all we were very fortunate um our problem well my problem was finding where to drop the bombs because we were told that the er oh what.
CB: The markers?
RF: Yeah the flares.
CB: Yes.
RF: ER who who used to fly in what do they call them?
CB: The pathfinders?
RF: Pathfinders.
CB: Yes.
RF: They were dropping flares they were dropping flares and we were told to bomb a certain colour and if there wasn’t that colour to bomb the other colour but we were given priorities which colour to er drop these bombs and er if there was more than one we had to try and bomb in the centre, we didn’t see the target at all we just er saw the lights down on the ground and the flares it was the flares we were attacking.
CB: Right, and the flares were bright enough?
RF: Oh yes they were very clear.
CB: To be able to constantly see them?
RF: You could see them before you got to the target.
CB: Right.
RF: And then er I’d see different colour flares and I’d identify the ones we were told to bomb priority and I dropped the bombs there in the centre of those.
CB: So in your run in how far from the target was the run in to start, how many miles out?
BF: You want sugar and milk.
RF: Milk.
CB: I’ll stop for a moment hang on. So we are just back on the bombing runs then Reg.
RF: I’d tell the pilot you know to bear left or bear right port or starboard and then straight ahead.
CB: So you are lying down?
RF: I was lying down flat.
CB: Right and you’d got the bomb sight in front of you?
RF: Yeah keeping an eye on the er the flares in front of me and once I saw the flares I told the pilot and we were told which flares to have priority to bomb and I’d head for those and I’d bomb either the one flare that was the colour I was I was to bomb or the centre of more than one flare and just er drop the bombs I never saw the target really.
CB: So who pressed the button for dropping the bombs?
RF: I did.
CB: Right, and then what then you had to keep going straight and level how long for?
RF: Not for long.
CB: Because you had drop a flare then?
RF: As we came into the target I’d have to er identify the flares and I’d tell the pilot ‘bomb doors open’ and I’d open the bomb doors and then ‘bombs away’ and then everything turned off then the pilot just diverted to the left.
CB: But didn’t you have to drop a flare and then take a picture?
RF: I never took pictures.
CB: Who did who took the picture the pilot was it?
RF: Could have been it could have been the navigator I don’t know I never did it.
CB: Okay, so as you said then he would turn?
RF: He’d turn then and.
CB: Which way would he go was there a standard escape turn?
RF: He’d turn left port.
CB: Changing height or same level?
RF: Go higher after dropping the bombs, I think we were lucky with the Lancaster because it got to a higher level to drop the bombs than the other four engine bombers, you know the Halifax and Stirling they couldn’t get to our height they were below us so we were very lucky in the Lancaster.
CB: Right, and on your raids how often did you encounter enemy fighters?
RF: We never met any we were never attacked we were very very fortunate we had searchlights occasionally and we could see flak coming but it never hit the aircraft.
CB: So you are flying along and the flak is coming up what is that like?
RF: Well you could see it you know exploding and you could see the flares but er we were very fortunate as we were flying high you see in the Lancaster.
CB: What sort of height were you flying?
RF: About twenty five thousand.
CB: So are you’re saying could the flak not reach your height?
RF: Could be yeah.
CB: Some people experienced flak boxes did you come across that so there’s intensive flak in a box shape?
RF: No we didn’t no no.
CB: Because you were above it?
RF: No never saw it.
CB: Okay and what about other aircraft dropping bombs near you?
RF: Didn’t see any.
CB: And what about other aircraft exploding was that something you saw?
RF: Never saw them all I was concentrating on was the target and the flares and I could see all the flames on the ground you know scattered around it covered quite a big area you know all the flames.
CB: Yes.
RF: It wasn’t concentrated in one particular place it was scattered all over.
CB: Why was it so scattered?
RF: Because of the flares I expect dropped er in the wrong in the wrong place it’s difficult you know when you’ve got er different colour flares which one to target.
CB: Because there is radio silence anyway isn’t there?
RF: Yes.
CB: So before coming to the target and after the target what was your job before you reached the target what were you doing?
RF: What was?
CB: Before you reached the target what were you doing as the bomb aimer?
RF: Just keeping an eye open for enemy aircraft and er and the flares and the er um what do they call it? [laughs].
CB: The lights?
RF: The lights.
CB: The searchlights.
BF: The searchlights.
RF: The searchlights.
CB: Yes so you how did you deal with the searchlights?
RF: Searchlights.
CB: How did bombers deal with those?
RF: We were lucky we were never caught in those searchlights.
CB: Right.
RF: But I used to see them in the distance you know we were never caught in them.
CB: The bomb aiming position is immediately underneath the front turret so how often did you go into the front turret?
RF: I never went in there I was spending all my time on my tummy looking forward identifying the target.
CB: Right.
RF: I thought that was my main job and if we were attacked I would have gone into the front turret.
CB: Right.
RF: But we weren’t attacked so it was a waste of time going in there.
CB: Right. On the way home what was your job on the way home?
RF: I had nothing to do really I was just lying down keeping an eye open for enemy aircraft, searchlights.
CB: Did the pilot ever had to do a corkscrew?
RF: No.
CB: You’ve covered a number of places you went to Cologne three times in a row what was the reason for that?
RF: No idea we weren’t given a choice of target we were just told to go there I remember on the third occasion telling the pilot that I could see the flames in the distance I I don’t know how far it is from the French coast to Cologne but it was quite a distance and as soon as we crossed the French coast I told the pilot I could see the flames dead ahead.
CB: What was the most difficult raid of the ones you did?
RF: I think the ones in the Ruhr were the er most difficult Dortmund was it or Essen Essen did we go there twice?
CB: Your second sortie was Dortmund.
RF: Did we go twice to Essen?
CB: ER you only went once to Essen.
RF: Once.
CB: Your third one was to Essen yes that was the most difficult was it?
RF: Well they were all the ones to Ruhr were difficult because there was more er searchlights and everything you know and er there must have been more fighters below us they didn’t come up as high as us we were lucky I don’t know how many aircraft were lost on those raids in the Ruhr it must have been quite a lot.
CB: Now your last raid was on Stuttgart what happened on the way back from that?
RF: We were diverted by our um message on the er on the er what do they call it intercom not intercom.
CB: No on the RT?
RF: Yes we were told that our base at Syerston was er was closed because of bad weather and we were told to divert to Herne airport in near Bournemouth and our pilot had to come down after crossing the French coast to get under the low cloud cover over the English Channel it was about three thousand feet and coming down from twenty five thousand to under three thousand over a short distance you know from the French coast caused me to perforated my ear drum and we landed at er Herne safely and then er stayed the night there flew back to Syerston the following day.
CB: So when you had the perforated eardrum and you landed at Herne what happened did you go to sick quarters or what?
RF: No I just went to the er sergeants mess I think it was I don’t know how we managed to sleep [laughs].
CB: Did anybody else have a perforated eardrum?
RF: No No.
CB: Just you?
RF: Just me.
CB: What caused that do you think?
RF: Well it’s the rapid descent you know coming over the English Channel to get under the cloud cover the original pilot that we had when we first joined 61 Squadron he had to come off operations because of loss of hearing and he was put onto non-operational flying his name was er James Graham wasn’t it.
CB: Yes.
RF: And then we had a replacement pilot Norman Turner who took us as a complete crew and it was his third tour of operations it was a cycle of ten.
CB: Was everybody else in your crew a sergeant or flight sergeant were they before he came was everybody an NCO?
RF: We were all NCO’s.
CB: Yes until he came?
RF: They were made flight lieutenants after they completed their tour of operations but Norman Turner er he came back for a third tour he didn’t have to do it but er he wanted to do it and er took us on as a complete crew and we were very fortunate he was an excellent pilot.
CB: But he’d been in a different squadron before had he?
RF: He must have been yes yes and I think he had the DFC when he came to us, um after a short time we had a new aircraft delivered to 61 Squadron it was a QRJ QRJ QR was the squadron letters and J was the aircraft letter the um aircraft number was JB138 and er it was delivered direct from the factory to the squadron and Norman Turner took it on he liked the name J and called it “Just Jane” and er.
CB: Which is at East Kirkby now that’s the name of the Lancaster at East Kirkby now.
RF: East Kirkby it’s not the same one.
CB: No no.
RF: But the original “Just Jane” went on to do a hundred and twenty three operations with different aircrew during the war ended the war and was scrapped but it had a wonderful life “Just Jane” hundred and twenty three operations and er Norman Turner designed er a picture on the outer fuselage by the pilot’s er cockpit a picture of Jane who was a character in the Daily Mirror at the time sitting on a bomb that was our picture on the side of the fuselage Jane she was er a favourite model with all people in the forces at the time er I think she lived in Horsham didn’t she yeah.
CB: So you had a perforated eardrum you landed and then the next day you flew to Syerston what happened next for you?
RF: I was going up to London I don’t know where exactly for tests every so often and I was restricted to non-operational flying I couldn’t fly above three thousand feet and then after another test later on they increased it to six thousand feet and I finished up non-operational again up to ten thousand feet so my hearing must have been improving a bit.
CB: So what were you doing during that period it was non-operational so you weren’t with your crew anymore?
RF: No I was on OTU’S then.
CB: Where?
RF: Um oh dear Wing was one of them I know.
CB: So in the OTU’S what were you flying in at OTU?
RF: Wellingtons.
CB: And what was your job when you were flying at the OTU?
RF: I was a bombing instructor I did a course in Doncaster I think it was training course as a bombing instructor and er I went to quite a number of OTU’s I can’t remember the names can you remember the names of some of the?
CB: There were so many weren’t there.
RF: Yes.
CB: Were they nearby?
RF: They were all in this area you know central England.
CB: So Little Horwood?
RF: Where?
CB: Little Horwood, um Cheddington, um Westcott there were so many.
RF: Westcott yes Westcott.
CB: That was 11 OTU.
RF: Yes yes.
CB: Right, Turweston.
RF: No.
CB: Bicester.
RF: No.
CB: Hinton in the Hedges, Croughton there were lots round there.
RF: No.
CB: Okay.
RF: They were all around Lincolnshire.
CB: Oh you went up to Lincolnshire as well?
RF: Yes.
CB: So what did you do after being a bombing instructor?
RF: I went er what do they call it would be er the administrative officer you know of the squadron.
CB: Yeah the secretarial officer.
RF: Yeah I was helping him.
CB: Yes.
RF: Yes it was a funny job because er if we lost aircrew you know we had to dispose of all the er possessions and everything send them back to the next of kin.
CB: What was that like? What was that like how did you feel about that?
RF: Um felt a bit sad you know doing it but it had to be done and I used to go on I remember now I used to go on the bomb sites on the er you know where they do practice bombing.
CB: Yeah on the bombing range yes.
RF: I used to go on the bombing range I used to go out in er er like a jeep or something with a couple of er crew and we used to er check the the targets had been hit on the bomb on the site there on the bombing target practice bombing.
CB: What was the size of the bombs used for practice? What size were the bombs used for practice how heavy?
RF: When I was doing ops?
CB: When the bombs were used for practice.
RF: Oh I can’t remember.
CB: I think they were twenty five pounds.
RF: Yes.
CB: So you you left your crew did you keep in touch with the crew? They completed their tour did they?
RF: Yes they completed their tour but er I’d already lost them after I er left Skellingthorpe they remained in Skellingthorpe but I had to go to different OTU’s so I lost touch with them.
CB: Right, and when did you first make contact with your crew after the war?
RF: Nineteen Eighty Two wasn’t it?
BF: Yes.
RF: Nineteen Eighty Two something like that this member from Neath came to my house and asked me if I’d been in the RAF because he had seen the message put in by Jamie Barr that’s how we er got together.
CB: Right. So you went from working with the bombing range you then left the RAF at that time did you?
RF: Yes back to the Civil Service.
CB: So where did you go when you rejoined the Civil Service where was that?
RF: I went to Neath and that was with the National Insurance Office as it was then, and then I moved to Port Talbot with the National Insurance, and then I volunteered to go to er Reading to join a computer centre that they set up at Reading, I was interested in that type of work you know but it was in the early days of computers I wanted to be a systems analyst but they they said I was too old [laughs] to train but um I enjoyed it you know I was er working there for quite a number of years about six years wasn’t it?
BF: Yes six years.
RF: In Didcot six years?
BF: And then we went back to Port Talbot.
RF: Yes, and at the time there were people working in the new computer centre in Reading living in Didcot in different areas and we used to share transport we were very fortunate I only had to drive once once a week because we were picking each other up you see driving to Reading working in the same computer centre I’ve lost touch with all those now.
CB: When did you buy your first house?
RF: Er.
BF: Clifton Terrace.
RF: Clifton Terrace Port Talbot what year was that Nineteen Sixty Two?
BF: [unclear]
RF: Nineteen Sixty Two Steven was two.
BF: Yes.
RF: And we moved from there to Didcot lived in Didcot for six years they were building the power station there at the time and of course that’s the one that’s had this problem recently you know.
CB: It collapsed.
RF: Because it collapsed the power station causing the death of three people there er moved back then to Port Talbot again, and then moved from Port Talbot to Woking, then Woking back to Port Talbot, and then Port Talbot back here.
CB: Sounds like an elastic band doesn’t it.
BF: I would like to be near my family one of six children you know but I was the youngest but they all died so my family were up here then you see.
CB: Yes.
RF: So when we lived in Didcot back in Nineteen Sixty Six to Seventy Two we used to come to Goring quite often on the weekends because it er was quite a popular place here for visitors and we liked it here didn’t we?
BF: Yes yes we liked it very much.
RF: And when our daughter came back from abroad she’d been living out in the Middle East Dubai um we told her to buy a house here and she’s lived here ever since.
CB: Really. What was the most memorable thing about your RAF service?
RF: I think the most I enjoyed was the friendship especially with the crew we didn’t get to know the ground crew that well but they were very good but the crew was like a family you know we kept together we went out together and we flew together.
CB: What was the worst part of your time in the RAF?
RF: I can’t really say it was bad at all I enjoyed it it was nice especially out in South Africa used to er go swimming there they had a swimming pool in Queenstown used to spend quite a lot of time there I had quite a lot of friends on the training courses.
CB: But Jamie Barr was your best friend then but you lost touch with him completely after leaving the squadron?
RF: Yes for a number of years until Nineteen Eighty Two and then we’ve met up every year since I don’t think he’s well enough to go up to the reunion this year.
CB: Right.
RF: But we’ve always met up together.
CB: Where does he live now?
RF: Yeah get to know his family and everything.
BF: Where does Jamie live Reg?
RF: Ludlow.
BF: Ludlow isn’t it.
RF: Ludlow
BF: Yes we do phone him occasionally keep in touch.
RF: And um the other crew that we managed to trace they joined us every year at the reunion before going up to Lincoln for the squadron reunion we used to meet together in different hotels you know in Hilton hotels and places in this area but we always stuck together, um Bunny and his wife we got to know them all, Eric Walker and his wife Dorothy he was the tail gunner Eric unfortunately they died you see there is only Jamie and myself left now of the crew, er Norman Turner he was the pilot that we had the replacement pilot I think he was from Macclesfield his er his widow Dorothy she still corresponds Christmas time, and er Jim Chapman’s wife she’s still alive she keeps in touch, Bunny’s wife unfortunately is ill she’s in a care home now isn’t she yes, but we always stuck together for years you know year after year we were meeting up together the complete crew.
CB: And er Norman Turner was there until the end of the tour?
RF: Yes.
CB: Which you didn’t finish because of your problem with your ear, what happened to James Graham?
RF: He had to come off operational flying we lost touch with him then because he must have gone to OTU’s I know he was from er Girvan in Ayrshire originally that’s where he was born but I think he moved down to um Surrey Leatherhead lost touch with him but he’s died now.
CB: But he had to give up because of a medical problem?
RF: Yes um he he didn’t perforate his eardrum but he had loss of hearing it must have been the noise of the the plane of the engines.
CB: Well it’s fairly regular.
RF: Affected him.
CB: Now one of the things it’s difficult for people to grasp really is the situation where you’re the bomb aimer you are lying down looking forwards and vertically into the inferno what’s it like doing that?
RF: I didn’t mind it at all you know it was something er I can’t say I enjoyed it but I was glad to be in that position rather than the navigator, the navigator was tucked away in a corner like the wireless operator they were tucked away in the corner they couldn’t see out, I could see out the gunners the mid upper gunner and the rear gunner they could see out like I could and the pilot and the flight engineer but the navigator was tucked away in the corner you see and the wireless operator inside the plane, some of the er people I trained with in South Africa kept in touch I don’t know how they managed to find me one of them was from Kingston upon Thames he joined the Police Force after the war but unfortunately I never had a chance to meet him and he’s died, the other one the daughter put a letter in the Squadron Association Newsletter asking for information about her father and I saw the letter after I’d joined the squadron I was getting the magazine every so often, and I saw the letter and I correspond corresponded with her then and told her that I was training with her father out in South Africa and he came to the squadron as well but he was er a flying officer so we never sort of kept together in the squadron he was in the officers mess I was in the sergeants mess, but er we trained together but I had photographs I sent to her and she was grateful because she hadn’t been told anything about her father he’d been killed on an operational flight and her mother remarried and never talked about her father she was born a couple of months after her father was killed, so er she was very grateful that I’d given her some information about her father and sent photographs and things she goes up to the reunion every year and we have a chat up there that’s er.
BF: Pat.
RF: Pat.
CB: One of the aspects of this project that’s interesting is how many veterans like you have been unable, my father was one of them, unable to communicate with their family what they did in the war why do you think that was?
RF: Yes they didn’t like talking about it, our squadron um Wing Commander er he was killed unfortunately on the same night at Pat’s father but he was our Wing Commander and er his daughter she also managed to contact me and I gave her the information um she now lives in Pangbourne and she was er what was her name Jallet isn’t it?
BF: Yes Jallet.
RF: Susan Jallet and David Jallet they were doing the er doing the catering and everything for the reunion until their health failed.
CB: Right I’m just looking to see who they I haven’t got it down. Right so that’s really helpful thank you very much indeed er now Vic is there anything that comes to your mind that we?
RF: Did you want to pay a visit?
CB: I do in a minute yes. Do you want to stop now do you want to stop?
RF: No.
VT: Just a couple of things.
CB: This is Vic Truesdale now with a question.
VT: And will you put it to Reg ‘cos I think he’ll.
CB: Yeah to Reg okay.
VT: Er you didn’t it would be interesting to know how he chose the RAF and he told us about um where was it in London in the?
CB: St. John’s Wood
VT: St. John’s Wood but we didn’t know I think how he chose that.
CB: So the question is um you said that you joined the RAF at St. John’s Wood but why was it that you joined the RAF after the experience with the Navy and the Fleet Air Arm what made you decide to join the RAF.
RF: I can’t think I I just changed my mind that’s all [laughs] yes.
CB: But it was it because why didn’t you go to the army why didn’t you choose the army?
RF: I wanted to learn to fly, I wanted to be a pilot but er there we are you can’t get all your wishes, but er my first er target was the Fleet Air Arm for some reason it may be because my brother was in the Merchant Navy I don’t know.
CB: So when you did the original assessment then people tended to get categorised in the PNB pilot navigator bomber grouping did they suggest at any stage you should start pilot training or was it always directly to do with observer?
RF: I think we had tests in Oxford at the time and er it was er eyesight, colour vision and my eyesight was 20/20, my colour vision was perfect, so maybe that’s the reason they wanted me to be an observer.
CB: But you were happy with the decision?
RF: Yes yes I enjoyed it training out in South Africa.
CB: If you had had the option of becoming a navigator instead of a bomb aimer would you have preferred that?
RF: [sighs] I wouldn’t mind either really I would have preferred being a navigator because I liked er doing the maps I liked studying the stars and the cloud cover and things like that I used to enjoy that type of training when I was er I’m still a weather forecaster aren’t I [laughs].
BF: Yes.
RF: I forecast the rain today.
CB: As a result of your training that’s as a result of your initial training you learned about the weather?
RF: Yes.
CB: As part of your training.
RF: And I always liked maths when I was at school that was my favourite subject so looking at maps and er working out routes and mileage and things like that was far better for me than doing the bomb aimers training but I didn’t mind.
CB: Now then after a while the aircraft had H2S radar to what extent did you get linked in with that?
RF: It didn’t affect me at all but I it did the navigator but I was fortunate as I told you as I finished up in the same crew as my best friend as navigator and bomber aimer couldn’t be better.
CB: A final question to do with promotion, so you came off operations as a flight sergeant when did you get promoted to warrant officer?
RF: I can’t remember.
CB: What were you doing at the time?
RF: It may have been after I er did the the er bombing instructors course could have been I think it was in Doncaster I did the course.
CB: Yes okay. I think that covers most of the items thank you we’ll pause there. Supplementary question here from Vic which is you had to go to South Africa on the ship which became detached what was it like first of all being on the ship on its own and then back in a convoy what did you do?
RF: Well I remember crossing the Equator we had to go through a certain ceremony what did they call it?
VT: Neptune.
CB: Neptune.
RF: Yes I remember going through that particular phase before we got to Freetown and when we got to Freetown as I said we were there I think for three or four days waiting for another convoy we used to enjoy it because the natives used to swim into the harbour come up to the boat and ask for Glasgow tanners and we used to throw coins into the water for them and they used to dive in and pick them up they were always coming up and shouting “Glasgow tanners, Glasgow tanners” because it was the only English words they knew I think.
CB: Yes yes, what was the ceremony at the Equator what was the ceremony what did that entail?
RF: Well a special ceremony when you cross the Equator I can’t think of the name.
CB: Yes but what did you actually do you had to step across a line on the deck did you?
RF: Yeah or something or you went in the water or something.
CB: So then you were underway on the ship what were you doing all day on the ships?
RF: Well we were told to er man the guns we had a certain shift to do you know.
CB: Which type of gun is that?
RF: On the on the Merchant on the on the er passenger boat I can’t remember we weren’t given any training.
CB: They were big guns not machine guns?
RF: Yes they were big guns and we were told to go on a shift perhaps five hours or seven hours I can’t remember but we never had to use them.
CB: So the guns are in a turret are they? Were they open or were they in a turret?
RF: In a turret but I could stand inside you know I remember looking out and seeing the flying fish out on the ocean there.
CB: And which shift did you prefer bearing in mind this was a hot area?
RF: Which?
CB: Because of the heat which shift did you want to choose so you had to go on the guns and it was hot?
RF: I didn’t mind I didn’t mind.
CB: No you didn’t no.
RF: I think the name of the ship that we went in was Scythia [spells it out] Scythia [spells it out] and I think the other boat that we came back on was Empress of Russia.
CB: And how long did it take for the voyage?
RF: I can’t think it took three weeks to get to Freetown I know that and then it er must have been from Freetown we left in January must have been about six weeks down to Durban, we spent quite a long time in Cape Town after we’d completed our training waiting to come back and I managed to er get up to the top of Table Mountain I didn’t climb up I just used the cable car.
CB: Oh right. What planes were you flying in training what aircraft?
RF: Er Avro Ansoms and the Oxford.
CB: Which one was the gunnery which one for gunnery?
RF: I’m not sure we used both of them, I was very fortunate actually when I was training because er there was a person on our course by the name of Fraser and every day they put a notice up on the noticeboard saying what flight you were in for training and Fraser was always shown before Freeth this particular day Freeth was put before Fraser and his plane crashed and he was killed, I went to his funeral I remember that I was one of the pallbearers but er you know it’s all fate isn’t it.
CB: At the time though how did you feel about that?
RF: I didn’t think of it at the time you know I was just sorry for him but I it struck me afterwards you know why was it always Fraser and Freeth you know on the noticeboard it gave you details of the flight for the day and you’d look at the noticeboard and you’d see which plane you were going to er join and which target whether it was bombing or navigation and Fraser was always there before Freeth but this day it was Freeth before Fraser.
CB: You mentioned flying in the Manchester earlier did you go on any operations in that or was that only?
RF: That’s just training.
CB: What was that like for flying?
RF: It was a bit er bumpy you know it wasn’t very good compared to the I preferred the Wellington and er when I was taken off operations I remember flying them in a Martinet I don’t know what I was doing in the Martinet that was in OTU and er I went back in the Lancaster the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight I was invited to fly in that that was in September Nineteen Ninety Nine and um went up to Coningsby to join it and er we did a fly pass at Cleethorpes they were unveiling a memorial there to boar fighters and we did a fly pass again at Northcotes airfield in Yorkshire and then we went up to Leaming in Yorkshire North Yorkshire I was up for nearly two hours I went down to the bomb aimers position at my age.
CB: Fantastic.
RF: Nineteen Ninety Nine how old was I then seventy eight was it? Seventy eight I managed to get down into the bomb aimers position I had to be helped to get over the main spar I couldn’t climb over them.
CB: But a great experience.
RF: Yes wonderful.
CB: Right I think we’ve done really well thank you Reg. Now we are talking about one of the squadron commanders Wing Commander Penman.
RF: Wing Commander Penman.
CB: And what did he do?
RF: He was 61 Squadron Commanding Officer and for one particular reason I don’t know he wanted to go on a flight and he selected his crew, he took the er head of the navigation team, the head of the er bomb aiming team, the wireless operator, he selected his own crew took one of our crew members I can’t think of his name now and er unfortunately they were killed.
CB: All of them were they all killed or just him were they all killed or just him?
RF: They were all killed and they are buried in Germany his daughter was born a couple of months after his death and she now lives in Pangbourne Susan Jallet and she comes up to er the reunion regularly.
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Interview with Reg Freeth
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Reg Freeth grew up in Wales and worked for the Civil Service in the Labour Exchange before he volunteered for the Royal Air Force. He trained as an observer in South Africa and flew operations served as a bomb aimer with 61 Squadron from RAF Syerston. He later became a bombing instructor, then an administrative officer. After the war he returned to work for the Civil Service.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-31
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jackie Simpson
Format
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01:23:50 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Cumbria
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
1943
61 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bale out
bomb aimer
bombing
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Manchester
Martinet
observer
Oxford
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Millom
RAF Syerston
RAF Torquay
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/358/6094/AHayleyCA160224.2.mp3
24880b7e4d452a04df441ffcc72a2c71
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hayley, Jack
Jack Hayley
C A Hayley
Cecil A Hayley
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. Collection consists of a log book, an interview and other items concerning Flight Lieutenant Cecil 'Jack' Alison Hayley DFC. Items include photographs of aircraft and people, a letter concerning his Distinguished Flying Cross and well as newspaper cuttings concerning operations, his wedding and the award of the Distinguished Flying Cross. After training he completed tours on 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern, then 170 Squadron at RAF Hemswell before going on to a bomber defence training flight flying Hurricanes and Spitfires.
This collection was donated by Jack Hayley and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hayley, CA
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-25
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the, Thursday the 25th of February 2016 and I’m sitting here with John Longstaff-Ellis talking to Cecil Alison Hayley.
JCAH: No.
CB: Otherwise known as Jack and his wife Barbara about Jack’s experiences in the war but can we just start in your earliest recollections Jack?
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Of family life and -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: And how you came to join the RAF.
JCAH: Yes. Yes. Well, I was born in Caterham as I say. My father had an ironmonger’s business in the Croydon Road, Caterham it’s, ‘cause there was lower Caterham and upper Caterham. We were in the lower, lower Caterham and I was I was born over the shop, over the ironmonger’s shop. So earliest recollections I was the youngest of three boys and I was five years younger than my eldest and three and a half years younger than my, the middle one. Harold was the eldest and Leslie was the middle one. I have very few recollections of life before primary school which was at Caterham Board School they called it. It’s on Croydon Road, Caterham which I suppose I started when I was, I don’t know, five I suppose and then, well while I was there I, my interest in those early days, well when I was old enough was Scouting. I started off as a Wolf Cub and went on to Scouting but can I just I stop there.
[machine paused]
JCAH: The thing is my secondary school, ok. So if we could start again. Are you ready to start again?
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Ok. Right. I I went to my secondary school which was Purley County School which, when I started there was near Purley but they had, had to extend the school and make a completely new building and the new school was built at Chalden and I used to cycle from Caterham up, because it was up on the hill, I had to go through Caterham on the hill and I was interested in rugby, I used to play rugby. I wasn’t very interested in cricket but I did join the school cadet corps when I was at Purley County School and I learned to play the bugle there in the band. So that took me up to the age of eighteen when I left school which was 1938, no, seventeen, that’s right. 1938. And my first job was with a small insurance company in the city and our offices were in the Royal Exchange and I was on the mezzanine floor looking out of the window right across to the Bank and Bank Square, the Mansion House and the Bank of England. It was a beautiful position to be in. Anyway, I suppose I was there until, where are we, ‘39, probably 1940, the office, oh no it was before the war they, in 1938 they obviously decided they would move out of London and we moved to Aylesbury and the offices at Aylesbury and my wife happened to be the secretary to the district manager at at the branch there at Aylesbury and she managed to fix me up with accommodation in Stoke Mandeville, Moat Farm and I was well fed there during the war. It was a lovely place to be. Anyway, we, my wife and I, her parents were farming in Weston Turville and I used to enjoy going over to the farm and taking part in the farming activities and eventually, well we got engaged so now we’re coming up, I, of course, I was eighteen when war broke and, but it wasn’t, for some reason or other it wasn’t ‘til 1941 they started taking any interest in me and my service and I had interviews and I, at that time I hadn’t any great ambition to go flying because my family history was in, in the navy and I assumed perhaps I would go in to the navy. But then they were desperate to get young, young chaps to join as air crew so I was persuaded to join the air force and my first, I had to report to the Lord’s Cricket Ground at St John’s, St John’s Wood which was the, what they called the Number 1 Air Crew Receiving Centre which was abbreviated as ACRC and in typical RAF slang became marcy tarcy [laughs]. So, yes I was probably there for probably two or three weeks getting kitted out and being introduced to RAF life and from my first part of training was Initial Training Wing at Newquay in Cornwall and there I did our usual square bashing and getting training in aircraft recognition and Morse, all these sort of things before, so I was probably there four or five months I suppose in Newquay and then yes I heard that I was being, of course by this time of course I knew I’d been selected for air crew training but then we had to go through what they called a grading school which was at Cliffe Pypard near, near Lyneham. Up on the top of the hill. A little small airfield and I think we flew Magisters there and we had twelve hours in which to go solo and if we didn’t go solo, unless there was any other particular reason, you continue pilot training then we were selected for pilot training and of course the alternative was trained as a navigator. So Cliffe Pypard. Yes. Could I just stop a minute there?
[machine paused]
JCAH: So from there we were sent to Heaton Park in Manchester which was the Air Crew Disposal, Dispersal Centre and eventually we were allocated to a convoy going out from Glasgow to take us across, across the Atlantic to Canada. We actually landed in New York and took the train up to Monkton in New Brunswick where we were held pending being sent on to our first training station. So I was there about a couple of weeks and then we took a train journey from New Brunswick across to Calgary and I think we started on the Monday and we got there on the Friday [laughs]. The only main stop we had was at Winnipeg where I think we changed trains and the local ladies were very good to us and came along with all sorts of goodies and they treated us very well and from there we went on to Calgary. I think it was the Friday we arrived and of course the steam trains then were fired by, by wood. Wood fired steam trains, and we used to wake up every morning covered in wood soot. Not a very comfortable journey. Anyway, so having arrived at Calgary we were posted to the 31 Elementary Flying Training School at De Winton where we flew Stearmans mostly. Boeing Stearmans during the day but we also flew Tiger Moths. The American, the Canadian Tiger Moth which had the luxury of a canopy above us instead of being an open cockpit and we used, we used to fly those mainly to introduce us to instrument flying but the main training was on the Stearmans so that took us from September ’42 to, yes to the end of November ‘42 when we were, I was posted to Number 38 Flying Training School at Estevan in Saskatchewan in the middle of the prairies in the middle of the winter. It was pretty harsh but it’s surprising how we coped really and of course the accommodation was all centrally heated you know. Anyway, so we were flying the Anson there. The Canadian Anson with the Jacob engines and it had the luxury of hydraulic undercarriage instead of, you know the British Anson you wound up as well. I don’t know. About eighty winds. So that was, but it’s interesting as well of course a lot of the time we were landing on snow which was very, you had very little references to judge your height and it was a good, good training. And well we did all the normal things. Cross country training of course, instrument flying as well as all our ground training in navigation. Did a lot of Morse code training, aircraft recognition, those sort of things and eventually we completed, I completed my training in April ‘43 and qualified for my wings which I was very proud of and then we were returned to Monkton to the dispersal centre at Monkton for our return journey across the Atlantic and while we were there there was, I remember this, Jimmy Edwards had been training out there and he and a few others managed to get together and produce a show for us which was good fun. Anyway, so we, I was going to say on our outward cruise we had a bit of a panic because one of the ships was torpedoed and it wasn’t ‘til after we got back that there was a news item in the new New York papers of the torpedoing of this ship, it was a cargo ship who managed to struggle into New York so that was interesting. But of course I, whilst I was at Monkton I was commissioned before I came home and so the journey home was far more luxurious in the Ile de France. It was, had been converted into a troop ship so yes we were living in luxury. A little episode, if I could go back to the outward cruise. We were in an American convoy and the sister ship of the one we were in had been, gone down with fire so there were very strict no smoking rules on deck, no below deck. You could smoke above deck and I was caught smoking below deck and my punishment was to work in the kitchen which, this was the officer’s mess and it was nice to pick all up the titbits, the luxury titbits such as oysters, fried oysters. So it wasn’t a bad punishment. Anyway, returning, the home trip was as I say very comfortable and so we, let’s see, we, the first posting was to Harrogate which was another personnel receiving centre and then on to Bournemouth for some reason or other and then we started, we went to Little Rissington which is a suburb of, of the big flying training station. No. Yes. No. That’s right we went to Little Rissington and then we were posted to a satellite of Little Rissington at Windrush and there we were flying Oxfords to get acclimatised to a different type of flying in this country as compared with Canada with the wide open spaces and roads that went either north west or east west. North, east, south and east, west. It was quite different and then of course coping with the restricted areas and so on in this country and during that time I, we did some instrument flying training at the Beam, what they called the Beam Approach Training Flight at Docking where we, they had an approach system which was pretty primitive. Anyway, we were only there oh about ten days and then I finished my training at Madly in September ‘43 and was then posted to a radio school at Madly, west of Hereford on the River Wye and there we were flying radio cadets. I was flying the Domini, the RAF version of the Rapide and the other flight was flying Proctors and single aircraft, single engine aircraft. I must say the old Rapide was very reliable and quite nice to fly. The only snag was there was no seat as such. You were just sat on a cushion with your legs stretched out in front of you which after an hour or so could be pretty, you could get a bit stiff. Anyway, it was an interesting period and we could just choose where we flew just as long as getting practice of operating in the air there, the radio equipment and I got to know the area quite well. The Black Mountains and going north to Cheshire and out that way. So that was, that took me up to March 1944 and at that stage I was about to start my operational training but a little incident. I, my wife and I had arranged to get married in November ‘43. Let’s see, ’43 perhaps and but, that’s right, I was at Madley and a week before we were getting married I was told that I was going on a course and it was they called a junior commander’s course and this was up in Inverness and I thought if any course I was going to go on I thought it was going to be an operational course but to spend, to, prior to my wedding arrangements for the sake of a stupid administrative course was, there was no way I could talk them out of it. Consequently our honeymoon arrangements went by the board and so we got married on the Saturday, yes and that Saturday night we spent in a hotel off The Strand. I think it was the Surrey Hotel if I remember rightly and most of the night was spent in the basement because of the air raid [laughs]. So that was my honeymoon night and the following day I, we had to get, I had to get on a train all the way to Inverness which in those days was it was impossible to find a seat on the train so we just had to squat on our kit in the corridor. So all in all that was a bit of a disaster. So having done that I was then posted in March ‘44 to 83 Operational Training Unit at Peplow. That’s in, in the Midlands. And there I flew the Wellington and I was there for about three months. I forget how many hours we flew but one little incident. The Wellington is infamous for its brake pressure. You had to watch your brake pressure all the time and the dispersal areas there were pans, dispersal pans and the land just dropped away from around the dispersal pan and I suddenly discovered I was out of brake pressure and I had to lurch over the side and down the slope, which I got a red endorsement which was eventually cancelled but that was an unfortunate incident. It learned me a lesson. Taught me a lesson. So Peplow [unclear] Park. Air crew. Yes. So having completed training on a Wellington I then went on to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Sandtoft which was in the Hull area. That sort of area. And I suppose we did about thirty or forty hours on the, on the Halifax and then on to the Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell and that was October ‘44. I was there only for just over two weeks and I had my first training, first appointment to a squadron which was 625 squadron at Kelstern and I was there for nearly two months when 170 squadron was reformed. It was previously a reconnaissance squadron beginning of the war and was disbanded and was reformed at, at Kelstern and I was, we were first of all at a little place called Dunholme Lodge. It was very much a wartime station and it was right alongside, on the, from Scampton on the opposite side of the Ermine Street, the main road to the north and I suppose it was only, I don’t know, might be four miles separating us from Scampton and consequently we had to have a common circuit around both airfields and this all got a bit fraught and I think they decided it was bit too dangerous and we were, I was posted then back to Hemswell and I, well finished my training, finished my tour on 170 squadron on the 15th of April ‘45. If we could just stop there. Yes. Just -
[machine paused]
CB: We’re talking about Lancaster and Halifax so -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: How, what, what were the differences between those then Jack?
JCAH: Well I mean -
CB: And which did you like?
JCAH: The Halifax was quite a heavy aircraft to fly and quite difficult to land successfully. It was quite hard work but the Lancaster was quite different. It was so easily controlled. The controls were more positive but not, not heavy and the manoeuvrability was so much better than the Halifax and the, I suppose as far as the air crew positons it was the same, similar. It simply, you had a Perspex canopy over you as pilot and of course no heating. You just relied on winter clothing to keep warm. So, no, the experience of training, going on to Lancasters was quite remarkable really. The sheer manoeuvrability and particularly when it come to using corkscrews to avoid fighters. Giving maximum deflection all the time. But no so as far as -
CB: What about rate of climb? Was there a difference in that?
JCAH: Yes. I think probably it was better. I think, I think with the four Merlins I can’t remember what the Halifax had in the way of engines.
CB: Well the early ones had Merlins and then they went to -
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: The Bristol Mercuries. .
JCAH: Yes. Hercules.
CB: The Hercules. Yes.
JCAH: Yeah. No. I think it had a climbing and of course I suppose the maximum ceiling was around about twenty thousand feet. We were normally operating, I suppose, about eighteen, eighteen thousand feet. That sort of height. So going back, going, talking about actual incidents during my ops I suppose I’ll just of give a summary of -
CB: What was your first raid?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: What was your first raid?
JCAH: Yes. It was with another crew to introduce me to what was, what happened during a bombing raid and this was an operation on Le Havre in daylight. Yes. So 625 squadron I had, I did twelve sorties with 625 before going on to 170 squadron and I did nineteen sorties with 170 squadron. Making a total of thirty one sorties all together and total flying time during my operations was a hundred and eighty one hours. By that time I had just reached a thousand hours altogether when I finished my tour. But I suppose one particular incident comes to mind when we were over Dusseldorf and we were coned by searchlights and of course you’re a sitting duck then to all the ackack anti-aircraft fire in the area and I simply stuck the nose down and called to the engineer for full power and I shall never forgive him saying, ‘What?’ when I was wanting immediate power [laughs] and you see he was questioning what I was saying. I said, ‘Full power,’ and so we just stuck the nose and just got out of the area as quick as possible. But on return we’d no, had no injuries in the crew but the aircraft was pretty well peppered and on landing I realised that my starboard tyre had burst and that was obviously lurching down. I kept it as straight as I could for as long as I could and then I just veered off on to the grass to clear the runway for the other aircraft coming in but looking at it the next morning was, it was out of commission. That, my aircraft was TCD. Our squadron letter was TC and I, I was D-Dog. I don’t think we had a P. TCP [laughs] Anyway, I suppose in about three or four days it was back in working order and I successfully finished my tour. So -
CB: Just -
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Go back on a couple of things.
JCAH: Yes. Ok.
CB: The crews. So you crewed up.
JCAH: Oh yes.
CB: At OTU. How did that work?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: You crewed up at OTU.
JCAH: That’s right.
CB: How did that work?
JCAH: They were just, well we had, no we didn’t have an engineer I don’t think.
CB: No.
JCAH: No. No. Just pilot, navigator, signaller and I think we had one gunner. That’s right. But then going on to the heavy aircraft we were, we were seven. Pilot, flight engineer, navigator, radio operator, bomb aimer and two gunners. Mid-up and two guns. Seven. No. It’s amazing how crew selection, we were just left to mix with each other and somehow we gelled and and I I was very successful, very lucky with my crew I think. My navigator in particular. He was, he was excellent. There was one occasion when we had no aids at all from the target, I forget which target it was and we were completely on dead reckoning radar based on past information on winds and so on but he got us home safely and we managed to recognise landfall on the English coast and got in safely but no, I was, and I was glad that I was eventually awarded the DFC and he was awarded the DFC as well. That pleased me no end because he was a great cont, made a good contribution to the operation of the crew. So you just -
CB: So you got, got a crew. Sorry.
JCAH: Sorry? Yes?
CB: Yes, just, you got a crew at OTU. Normally there was six on the Wellington.
JCAH: We didn’t have a -
CB: Yeah. But some flew with four.
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Was there a shortage of gunners and bomb aimers?
JCAH: I’m just trying to think whether we had two gunners at that stage. That I can’t quite remember. We certainly didn’t have a second pilot but then again -
CB: They were probably -
JCAH: I suppose, did we? I think we must have had a bomb aimer because we had to practice bombing.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Yes. We must have had a bomb aimer so that was at, on the Wellington.
CB: So when you were at, when the crew selection took place who was, were they gelling on you or how -
JCAH: It’s difficult -
CB: Or had some of them already got together? What happened?
JCAH: We got chatting to one another. I mean they had no means of knowing what my performance as a pilot was like and it was all a question of trust. But as I say it worked out very well. Yeah.
CB: So when you got to the HCU you then got the, a flight engineer.
JCAH: Yes. Flight engineer.
CB: And was he allocated to you or how did that happen?
JCAH: No. I think much the same thing happened. Of course we had a crew then to decide amongst us who we liked really, or who appealed to us.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: So that made it easier so, so -
CB: How many of the crew were commissioned other than you?
JCAH: My navigator was commissioned and strangely enough my mid-upper gunner which was unusual for a gunner, to have a commissioned gunner. And the rest of them were non-commissioned.
CB: And how did the crew get on in the, in flight and -
JCAH: Yes. I think -
CB: In the evening.
JCAH: You had to avoid being too familiar on the operations and you had to be strict on your intercom identifying each other as a pilot and not by name, that sort of thing so there was no misunderstanding. But yes my, yes my radio operator, he was Australian. A young Australian but he gelled very well. In fact we had a Bridge crew on board, the radio operator, the navigator my, the mid-upper, all four of us played bridge and we always had a pack of cards with us when we were sitting around waiting for something to happen which was good fun. So -
CB: Socially? So in the time off did the crew do things together or did there -
JCAH: Oh yes.
CB: Tend to be factions?
JCAH: No. Not at all. Of course we were in separate messes obviously but we were, certainly at Dunholme Lodge, we were billeted as a crew in old nissen huts with a coke boiler in the middle and the fumes that used to come off that boiler were quite, well sulphurous put it that way and not very, but anyway, we survived that but of course our messes, we used separate messes but we used to, in the evenings we used to obviously go out to the pub together and relax.
CB: So you were married. Were any of the others married?
JCAH: My engineer I think was married. My navigator wasn’t then I don’t think. No. No. I think my engineer and I were was the only ones who were married.
CB: Where was your wife during the war?
JCAH: She was in Aylesbury and -
CB: With her parents.
JCAH: Yes. On the farm at Weston Turville. Of course you had to be careful in those days just what you said on the telephone. You couldn’t really say anything about your operational activities at all but no we kept in touch and obviously an anxious time for her. But -
CB: How did you manage to get time together?
JCAH: During the tour I think we only had one occasion when we were, had a period of two or three days leave when we could get together. But I do remember when we were on OTU my wife managed to come and join us. She stayed at a local hotel and she managed to meet my basic crew at that time but that was the only time really we got together. Yeah.
CB: You didn’t manage to get loan of a small plane to fly in to Halton.
JCAH: [laughs]. No. No.
CB: Or Westcott.
JCAH: Yes because my father in law’s farm actually bordered on to the airfield at Halton at Weston Turville and just before the war an auto Gyro crashed.
CB: Right.
JCAH: On the airfield and in their hall they had the joystick from the remains of the auto Gyro I remember. Anyway that’s all a bit irrelevant.
CB: So you finished your tour.
JCAH: Yes.
CB: So that was when?
JCAH: It was February 1944.
CB: Yes. ‘45. ’44.
JCAH: ’45.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: I beg your pardon ‘45 and then there was an extraordinary posting was on to 1687 bomber defence training flights flying Spitfires and Hurricanes if you please. Coming off Lancasters this was quite, quite a different experience but we used to do, practice fighter affiliation.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: On the squadron bombers.
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: That was back at Hemswell strangely enough. Actually yes actually they were at Scampton when I first joined them and then they went back to Hemswell and as I say we used to fly Spitfires during the day and the Hurricanes at night.
CB: Oh did you? What were they like?
JCAH: Well they were, I mean they didn’t compare with the Spitfires. The handling and manoeuvrability. It was a steady, steady old aircraft but the Spitfire was great fun to fly. So manoeuvrable. Mind you there were times when I really didn’t know what I was up to. In fact it was in 19, where are we? ’47. We had the first open day after the war. Hemswell open day and part of the programme was the three of us were doing a tail chase and supposedly bombing a target in the middle of the airfield and the cloud base was only around about a thousand feet and we, all three of us winged over and I suddenly realised I really hadn’t got enough height to pull out of this dive and this hangar was coming out on my right and I was literally [stalling all around this dive?] and I honestly thought that this was it. Anyway, when I taxied in after this flight I had about twenty yards of telegraph wire on my tail wheel which shows you how close I was to the ground.
CB: It thrilled the audience.
JCAH: Oh yes. You know. Highly delighted.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: But I never heard the result of the loss of telephone communications in the area [laughs].
CB: Yes.
JCAH: I never did hear.
CB: What was the significance of having the fighter, the Spitfire for day affiliation and the Hurricane for night?
JCAH: Well really the Spitfire with the narrow undercarriage it was quite tricky to land particularly in a crosswind. It was very, you were sort of teetering all the time whereas the Hurricane the undercarriage went outwards, that’s right and so you had a wider wheel base and they were more stable in the landing process. Apart from that, I think that was the main reason why we used to fly Hurricanes at night. But there were times. The Lancaster used to have little blue lights on the tail side of the wing tips and there were times when I thought I was chasing these two blue lights only to find I was chasing a star. Got into all sort of peculiar situations. So I wasn’t a great night fighter pilot. [laughs]
CB: How long were you there?
JCAH: Let me see. Hurricanes. ’45. Well, I have it in here. Yes. [pause] Yes I was there about eighteen months. Yeah. Yes.
CB: End of ’46.
JCAH: Yes. October ‘46 I finished my tour there.
CB: Then what?
JCAH: Well it disbanded. The unit disbanded and I I was put on to headquarters duties I think. I was, when the chaps were demobbed they had what they called a release book which gave a little history and I had to make a little summary of the person’s history but really not knowing much about them at all but I used to make up some complimentary remarks but that was the main thing I was doing there.
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: Where?
JCAH: Still at Hemswell.
CB: Right.
JCAH: As I say Hemswell took up a very big part in my RAF career at that time because then Lincolns were brought into Hemswell and I joined 83 squadron on Lincolns. The intention was they were being trained for operations in the Far East against Japan.
CB: Right.
JCAH: And of course that didn’t come off and so I finished on 83 squadron in March 1949 and it was then that I was posted to Defford. What they called the Telecommunications Flying Unit doing, flying the equipment from the Radar Research Establishment, airborne experience and that really was quite a remarkable unit because they were using aircraft which weren’t required for their original duties. Consequently while I was on the heavy flight, what did I here? So I was flying Lincolns, Yorks, a Tudor 7 and a Wayfarer. This was on the, we had a heavy flight and a light flight, you know, flight and when we had a slack period in heavy flight I used to go across to fly some of the lighter aircraft which included Meteor, Meteor 7, Mosquito, Vampire, Firefly, Canberra, Brigand and we had had some communication aircraft. Valetta and the, the Devon, the service version of the De Havilland Dove which we used for communication flying but I mean on one month I had nine different aircraft on my logbook.
CB: Amazing.
JCAH: But that -
CB: So you enjoyed that.
JCAH: Pardon?
CB: You enjoyed that.
JCAH: Well, it was, it was good fun and it was amazing you used to go across to the light flight and you’d get the handbook out and just chat with the chaps because I mean, well a Mosquito did have two pilots but I mean, the others, the Meteor and the Canberra and the Vampire had all single seat and you couldn’t get any dual training and you just had a chat with the chaps who were flying and read the pilots notes and off you went.
CB: So was the Meteor the first jet that you flew?
JCAH: It was either the Meteor or the Vampire. It looks as though, yes.
CB: And did -
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: And did you go in a training version of that for your first flight in jet?
JCAH: No. I think probably not formal training but went along with one of the other chaps who was flying it regularly. Yes that was quite an experience.
CB: Because the Meteor 7 is a T7 isn’t it?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: The Meteor 7 is a trainer. T7.
JCAH: Oh right.
CB: And –
JCAH: Yes. And, yes, and the Meteor 4 if I can remember. Yes.
CB: Was a single seater.
JCAH: Yes. So that’s the way we went on.
CB: So when did you finish that?
JCAH: Where are we? Yes in May 1952.
CB: What was your wife’s name?
JCAH: Noreen.
CB: Noreen.
JCAH: Noreen.
CB: How is that spelled? N O R E E N.
JCAH: N. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. And did she come up to stay with you then at that time? Were there quarters?
JCAH: Yes. Now we’re talking about 1947 and it was only then that we were allowed to make arrangements to live out locally. We were with our wives and families, if you had them and I found a little cottage. It was, well it was attached to a bigger, still a cottage but we were just one up and one down and this was in Kirton Lindsey which was just north of Hemswell and it was about, yes, about seven miles. I used to cycle from there to Hemswell but the extraordinary thing with this little cottage was that the downstairs floor was wooden and the bedroom was a concrete floor. It was quite extraordinary and of course we had a little scullery, a little small scullery which we used as a pantry and an old coal range which we used to cook on. So it was all rather primitive but we were so pleased to be living together and, yes it wasn’t ‘til, yes, that was Hemswell. It wasn’t until I got to Defford that we had official married quarters but being a wartime station there were just single bed accommodation and I think where we were used to be the WAAF area when WAAFs were there and as I say they were just single brick quarters but we had, I think we had two bedrooms and a kitchen and bathroom so it was comparative luxury from our original -
CB: But that was an air force -
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: That was an air force building.
JCAH: Yes. Actually at Defford the, it was a Ministry of Supply station and it was just the aircrew who were the service, RAF element. So the interesting thing was as my, as I say my grandson is in a practice in Malvern.
CB: Malvern.
JCAH: Malvern. Yes. And living in Worcester and we, it was about a couple of years ago we paid a visit to them and I said I would like to go back to the Defford area and see what’s left because the flying discontinued there. They went to, moved to Pershore but there was still they had these big aerial discs on the airfield but I discovered they’d got a little museum there because Defford during the war was a very important station developing all the radar stuff and they’ve got a little exhibition there and my grandson introduced me as being, being there just after the war and they were very interested in this and they were talking about this road, Swimming Pool Road and of course the airfield was built on the Croome Estate, the Earl of Coventry’s estate and the entrance to our mess area was one of the big arches from the estate and the road leading from the arch up to where our mess was was known as Swimming Pool Road and they couldn’t understand this. Anyway, I was able to tell them we had a fire reservoir outside the mess which we took advantage of and used it as a swimming pool and we knew it as well that’s how it got its name but I was able to tell them the origin of the name which is quite interesting. So we’ve diverted a bit.
CB: We have. But after Defford, so May ‘52 where did you go from that?
JCAH: Yes. I went, for my sins I was posted to Germany as a station adjutant at RAF Celle. This was in August ‘52 and it was a big station. We had three flying squadrons with Venoms. They had Vampires and then Venoms and three RAF regiment squadrons and various other [unclear] so it was a big station and a lot of activity of course. Not being au fait with administration it was very daunting to say the least and not only that, one of the subsidiary jobs was married, married quarters, I was responsible for married quarters and the problem of allocating quarters to people who were desperate, you know, to come back from England and get quarters and that caused all sorts of problems but fortunately I hadn’t been there long when they posted a WAAF officer who took over that. That part. But what else? Oh yes I was responsible for the station police and there were some police dogs there and that was all part of my responsibility. So really it was two and a half years but I made some very good friends there at the time. Particularly amongst the RAF regiment squadrons and two particular families I stayed with them until they died. All four of them died now. But as I say, we had, it’s surprising when you’re away from home, posted away from home you make your entertainment in the mess and we had a lot of fun with fancy dress balls and all that sort of thing and there were compensations.
CB: Now this was a former Luftwaffe station.
JCAH: Yes.
CB: So the facilities were pre-war Luftwaffe.
JCAH: Yes. The accommodation -
CB: What was that like?
JCAH: Was very good. Yes. The mess. The mess accommodation was excellent and we had, you know, properly built married quarters. Yeah. That side of it was, was excellent you know. And of course I, I’ve got a, I haven’t mentioned my, the birth of my granddaughter, sorry, my daughter Anthea. Yes we were at -
CB: When was that?
JCAH: Yes, we were at Defford when she arrived. She was originally supposed to be born at a nursing home at Upton on Severn but she was an awful mess. She was upside down and extended and they decided they couldn’t cope with her at the nursing home and I had to take her into Birmingham. This was mid-winter and we’d had a lot of snow and it had thawed and then frozen and I had as my first car was an old standard 10, pre-war standard 10 where the suspension was almost nil. My poor wife driving over this corrugated ice all the way to Birmingham was quite extraordinary. Anyway, she arrived safely on the 5th of June, sorry the 5th of January 1951 and of course I had to wait, when I went out to Germany I had to wait probably three or four months before married accommodation was available but anyway she was, I suppose she was about two. Yeah, ‘53 and we, in those days in Germany you were, you were provided with a housekeeper so, and Renata, our housekeeper she also acted as a nurse to Anthea and they got on, she loved my daughter and it meant that we could go away and leave her with her and go on trips down the Rhine and this sort of thing. So -
CB: So when did you leave Celle?
JCAH: Celle? Yes. It was, my records run out. It was in about March ‘55. Yes I had just about two and a half years out in Germany and I was then posted to Transport Command and –
CB: Where was that?
JCAH: I did a conversion training on Hastings at Dishforth and then I joined 24 squadron at Abingdon on Hastings. I suppose at the end of ‘55. Yeah. The conversion training was only about forty or fifty hours and that was the beginning of another interesting period in my flying career because as I say I was on 24 and we used to say in brackets C Commonwealth squadron because it, they posted quite a few Commonwealth people on 24 squadron and our squadron leader, he was a squadron commander was an Australian and there were various other people from the Commonwealth but most of my experience on Hastings was flying out to Australia to send, fly supplies and personnel to the Woomera guided weapons range and also to the, oh dear, [unclear] they, they were just preparing for the atom bomb going up there.
CB: Christmas Island.
JCAH: Well no. That was the H bomb. This was the first atom bomb. Actually I think they had blown up one. Well this was a big preparation and of course we spent a lot of time, flights, we used to bring supplies and personnel to, we used to fly out of Edinburgh Field, the RAF base near Adelaide and it so happened I did have some relations living in Adelaide so it was quite convenient to be able to look them up but I, we were actually there. Maralinga, that’s right, was the, where the bomb went off and I was actually there when they exploded the atom bomb. That was quite an experience and everybody, every individual had to be accounted for before they set off the bomb and we were told obviously to face away and we were told when we could turn back and see and well it was pretty hefty sound when the bomb went off but the interesting thing was all the, they sent up rockets which left tracers going in different directions to indicate the direction of what was happening to the air following the bomb and the next day, I think it was the next day or might have been the day I was, I had to fly some samples from Maralinga up to Edinburgh. What am I saying? To Darwin. A civil flight to take them back to the UK and I was told how low I could fly. I could fly over the area but it was just like the face of the moon. All arid and, but to see these white clad figures walking across there was quite remarkable and of course the radio just went berserk to some extent and I had a strange feeling of saliva drying up in my mouth. It was quite definite and whether it was the effect of the radio activity, I suppose it must have been. Anyway, that was that and then of course then the H bomb came along and we were supplying, flying supplies out to that out to Christmas Island. Yes. That, let me think. Yes I’ve got to try and recap.
CB: We’ll have a break.
JCAH: Yeah.
[machine paused]
JCAH: Early ‘57 when we were flying out to Christmas Island.
CB: Right.
JCAH: To prepare for the –
CB: You were still on Hastings then.
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: But we used to, while we were on Christmas Island we used to take flights up to Honolulu to fly supplies for the station there. It was mostly boxes of whisky [laughs] but all sorts of things we used to go up to Honolulu to keep the Christmas Island supplied which was quite a nice diversion. So, yes, by then, we started off, 24 squadron started off at Colerne and then they moved, sorry at Abingdon and then we moved to Colerne near Bath and eventually we finished up at Lyneham and by, and then of course the Britannia came along so I joined 99 squadron at Lyneham in August 1959 and started training on the Britannia. So that was 1959. Lots of interesting flights. I know we took the Cranwell cadets out to, I’ll have to see if I can find it, the equivalent, the American air force equivalent of Victors. I wish I could find it now. Anyway, that was quite interesting and we were well looked after by the American air force in, it’s on the east side of the mountains in America. And my mind is beginning to go blank.
CB: Ok.
JCAH: So well that’s all sorts of interesting flights on the Britannia.
CB: So how long were you flying the Britannia?
JCAH: Yes. Let’s have a look. [pause]. 1960 [pause] ‘61. Yes, I finished flying the Britannia in February 1962 and they wanted to make way for the young second pilots coming on to become captains so they decided the older ones would stand down and I then went to Benson on the, at the, in the operations room at Benson which would be ‘62. I’m running out of – and I was there ‘62 to ’64 and I was told I was going to Aden on a year’s unaccompanied tour and, well, I was expecting to retire within the next year or eighteen months and I said, ‘No but I’m retiring shortly.’ And I obviously wanted to do a bit of preparation before leaving the service but no they wouldn’t be moved so I had to spend a year on my own in Aden and that was at the time just before we pulled out and it was getting pretty uncomfortable out there. The bombs being dropped all over the place. In fact we had one occasion where we were in, I was at headquarters Middle East at Steamer Point and on one occasion where a bomb went off in the mess and the chap who was laying it made a mess of it and blew himself up and fortunately nobody else. It was intended to go off later on in the day. And another occasion we were entertaining, it was dining in night and this, I was sitting with some nurses, RAF nurses and this grenade landed on this, this girl’s soup plate and it didn’t go off. Oh dear. And so, but that’s the sort of life we lived out there. It was pretty uncomfortable that year. I did manage to get home, I think for a week, at one period. So that was ‘65 and then my final tour in the RAF I was at Odiham in the ops room there which was then headquarters of 38 Group which was a part of Transport Command. And I always remember watching England win the World Cup on television there while I was there and then I finally retired in 1967.
CB: From Odiham.
JCAH: From Odiham. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: And, yes, I was just wondering, I mean, I was looking around for some civil appointment and I got to hear about the CAA wanting ex RAF people as operations officers and I managed to pass an interview for that. So, well, that was ‘67 and I started off with the accident and investigation branch, in the Adelphi I remember, in London and then I was, I used to go to court cases where there were people being summoned for low flying and all this sort of thing and I used to be the operational advisor to the legal people but that was only for a short time and then I went in to the licensing department. Of course it was, let me think, yes it was air ministry I think still when I was there. Then it became the Department of Trade and Industry, no, no, became Board of Trade and then finally Department of Trade and Industry. This was the time when Heath was trying to cut down on civil service and he decided that he wanted to offload the air ministry side to another separate authority and that’s when the CAA was formed. So, yes, I was, yes it was quite interesting [flight?] licencing and I eventually chaired ICAO. You know, the International Civil Aviation Organisation was in Montreal and I was put on to a group in, at Montreal to update the licensing aspects of what they called Annexe One of the international convention and this was the, what did they call it? Anyway the licencing aircrew, licensing requirements for the various licenses. There was the commercial pilot’s licence, the air and transport licence and eventually I did chair this committee and we finally produced amendments which I never saw implemented but I gather later that they were, I heard that they were implemented. What was the other thing?
CB: So when did you retire from the, from that?
JCAH: 1984.
CB: 1984.
JCAH: ’84.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: Yes. Yes, it was. I used to get quite a few chaps from the service that I knew who were coming along and I had one chap in particular he, there was the Air Registration Board Examination to qualify to fly a particular aircraft and they had this qualifying exam and he was trying to give me past papers but they just didn’t publish them and he was one of these chaps, you know, he was trying to be clever to try the easy way out. Anyway, that was a minor incident. So I retired on my, virtually on my birthday April ‘84 and I’d been retired about four weeks and my wife died.
CB: Ah.
JCAH: Yes and obviously we’d made all sorts of plans.
CB: Oh dear.
JCAH: And of course I haven’t mentioned how I came to Wokingham. How, to live in Wokingham. It was when I’d finished my tour in Germany we decided we would put our, try and to put some roots down somewhere because my daughter was coming up for schooling and I was going in to Transport Command and be away a lot. Anyway, we went up to the Ideal Home Exhibition and saw these houses and liked the look of them and were told they were being built in Wokingham. I’d never heard of Wokingham. Anyway, we came down and had a look where they were building and the town and we liked it and so that was in 1955. December ‘55 we actually moved in. Where are we? Yes, that’s right, come back, 1955 we actually moved in and I’ve been here ever since in Wokingham but, so having, my wife having died we were living in rented accommodation at the time because we were intending to move to -
BH: I thought you’d look at me. No. I can’t remember.
JCAH: It’s silly. I know the place so well. The name is not, just not coming. I’ll think of it.
CB: Right. Around here was it?
JCAH: Sorry?
CB: Was it around here?
JCAH: No. Up in the Midlands.
CB: Ok.
JCAH: Near Leicester.
CB: Ah.
JCAH: I know the place.
CB: But not in Rutland.
JCAH: Yes. In Rutland and the capital of Rutland was.
CB: Oakham.
JCAH: Oakham. Thank you very much and we’d actually put a deposit down for a house in Oakham. I wasn’t all that keen on it but my wife had become disenchanted with Wokingham and we’d had friends at Cottesmore who we used to visit regularly and of course Rutland Water had been developed then. It was all very nice in that area but in, of course my wife then died while we were still negotiating. The people we were buying from hadn’t got a house and they were trying to find a house. It suited me because I hadn’t actually retired when we, but anyway my wife having died I wasn’t going to move up there on my own and I sold the house and during that period when the prices were really escalating and it did me a good turn financially by this period while we were waiting. Anyway, I was, so I was then looking around for somewhere to live and I came down here and I didn’t know this existed and I thought well this is a nice place. It would be nice here. And I walked down the bottom of the road here and a retired clergyman who used to help us at All Saints Church, he saw me and I told him, you know, I was looking for a house and how nice it was. He invited me in. I walked back up to Wokingham and I met a lady who was my next door but one neighbour in my first house in [Frogall?] Road and she asked me how I was getting on. I said I was getting on alright but I was just looking for a house and I’d just been down to Milton Gardens and how nice it was. She said, Well I’ve just had lunch with a lady and she told me, and who lived in Milton Gardens and told me she was putting her house on the market the following Monday so I immediately got in touch with her and we settled it without agents or anything and that’s how I came to number eleven over there. So that was, where are we in dates?
BH: It was about ‘90 wasn’t it?
JCAH: Yes.
CB: Well, you retired in ‘84.
BH: I was still working –
JCAH: Well -
BH: I was still working when you -
JCAH: Yes, it was the end of ‘84 that I actually moved in.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: So I knew Barbara before through the church and she used to play tennis with my wife so we knew each other but I know we were neighbours for seven years and I used to be in the kitchen over there getting ready to go out and play golf and I used to see Barbara going, and poor girl going out to work and here I am going off to play golf. Anyway, it was, it took seven years before we, well we did one or two things together didn’t we? And went to concerts together and one thing and, well I used to have Christmas parties, I was chairman of the Residents Association and I used to have a Christmas party and Barbara always used to come over and help me clear up afterwards. It gave me a good impression anyway. So in the end -
CB: Got all the ticks.
BH: You waited until I retired -
JCAH: That’s right.
BH: Before he proposed.
JCAH: And I said, ‘This is stupid, why don’t we get together?’ And I came over here.
CB: Very good. Smashing.
JCAH: So there we are.
CB: That’s been great.
JCAH: The end of a fairy tale.
CB: Well the whole thing -
JCAH: The fairy tale ending.
CB: Worked very well didn’t it?
JCAH: Yeah.
CB: Thank you very much for that. There’s just one thing and that is fast backwards to your promotions. So you started as an SAC because you were well educated.
JCAH: Yes and I was commissioned.
CB: And then how did it go from there?
JCAH: I was commission at the end of my training when I got my wings.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: I was at Monkton. I, I, yes. I was because I remember going and buying my uniform.
CB: Yeah.
JCAH: In Monkton. In the town. And then of course while I was at Defford the first station commander there I didn’t get along at all. I had a dispute about the married quarters and somebody else wanting the same one. Anyway, I wasn’t very popular there and he didn’t recommend me for a PC. And then the next chap came along and I got on very well with him and he recommended me for my permanent commission and I’d taken promotion exam and I’d taken the Staff College Qualifying Exam and did all I could and, well this would be 1951 and they decided that they’d put an age limit of thirty on appointments to permanent commission and I’d just gone over, over the thirty so that was the end of that but I was quite keen to stay on in the air force and I settled for this limited promotion one. Commission.
CB: So you were already a flight lieutenant.
JCAH: Yes. Oh yes. Yes. I finished up the war as a flight lieutenant.
CB: Yes.
JCAH: And that was confirmed. I was an acting flight lieutenant at the time.
CB: Yeah because you were acting VR.
JCAH: Yes and I was eventually confirmed and I stayed as a, as a old flight lieutenant but as I say I enjoyed my RAF career and a lot of interest.
CB: Well Jack Haley thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jack Hayley
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-24
Contributor
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Julie Williams
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:27:23 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHayleyCA160224
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Hayley was born in Caterham and worked for an insurance company before he joined the Royal Air Force and trained to be a pilot. He trained to fly in Canada and after going through an Operational Training Unit in England, he was posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. And after completing twelve operations he joined 170 Squadron where he completed a further nineteen operations. While waiting for operations he would play bridge with other members of his crew. After his tour he was posted to 83 Squadron and served with Transport Command in Germany, Australia and Aden. He was present during the testing for the Atom bomb and also flew supplies to Christmas Island in advance of the hydrogen bomb test.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Germany
Great Britain
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
Christmas Island
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Düsseldorf
Yemen (Republic)
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1938
1940
1941
1944
1945
170 Squadron
625 Squadron
83 OTU
83 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
Dominie
Flying Training School
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hurricane
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Lincoln
love and romance
Magister
Meteor
military living conditions
Mosquito
Nissen hut
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
Proctor
RAF Clyffe Pypard
RAF Defford
RAF Dunholme Lodge
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Madley
RAF Peplow
RAF Sandtoft
RAF Windrush
RCAF Estevan
Spitfire
Stearman
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/510/8413/ADunnGC170308.1.mp3
0bdeaf205e0caafc4a51fbc886e08f7f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Dunn, George
George Charles Dunn
G C Dunn
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Dunn, GC
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Two oral history interviews with George Dunn DFC (1922 1333537, 149315 Royal Air Force), a photograph a document and two log books. He flew operations as a pilot with 10, 76, and 608 Squadrons then transferred to 1409 Meteorological Flight.
There is a sub collection of his photographs from Egypt.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 8th March 2017 and I’m, I’m in Saltdean with George Dunn to talk about his experiences in life, and particularly in the RAF. So what are your earliest recollections of life, George?
GD: I think probably er, when I went to infants school, which was about five and er, that was at West Meads Infant School in Whitstable. From there I went to the Oxford Street Boys Council School and er, I was quite good at football and er, I played and was captain of the juniors, and then the seniors, and er, I did actually get picked for the county but that’s another story, because it happened just after I left school er, where did we go from there?
CB: What did father do? What did your father do?
GD: My, my father was a plasterer, I had two sisters er, one is two years younger than me, and the other one is er, twelve years younger than me, she still lives in Whitstable and the other one lives in er, New South Wales, Australia. I left school when I was fourteen and er, joined Pickfords the removal company as a junior clerk. I stayed with them in, in the, in the following years, I played football for various local sides, and er, I can remember the day that the war broke out. I was sitting round a little radio set that my father had bought with Black Cat tobacco coupons er, we weren’t very well off so that was one way of getting a, getting a radio set. I don’t know how many cigarettes he must have smoked to get it [laughs]. I can well remember, we were all sitting round this radio set on the day that war was declared, anxiously waiting for Mr. Chamberlain to er, make his announcement er, which he did at eleven o’clock I think it was, and it was a funny feeling ‘cos one minute we were at peace, and in the blink of an eyelid, we were at war and of course we were all wondering what it was going to mean, er going on a bit er, when the blitz started on London I used to stand on the er, cliffs at Whitstable and could see all these hordes of German bombers coming up the Thames Estuary. Because Whitstable is on the North Kent coast and er, it was er, it was an awful sight because you knew what was going to happen when they reached London. I also saw a lot of the Battle of Britain er, which er took place obviously mostly over Kent and Sussex, and I think possibly that might have influenced me in why I joined the RAF. The other reasons that I joined is, for one thing I have a fear of drowning, and I didn’t fancy the army ‘cos one always had a picture in the background, the trenches and er, the terrible slaughter that went on in the First World War so I thought well I’ll go for the RAF. When I went up to Chatham, er this, I would be eighteen at that time, this was in January 1941, I went up to Chatham and er decided that I would apply for wireless operator air gunner. We had to do a written, a written exam and er, when I went to the interview, I think there were three RAF officers there, and they said, ‘why have you applied to er, er for a WOPAG?’ So I said, ‘well I don’t really think that I’m sufficiently educated to er, go for anything higher like a pilot’, and they said, ‘well we’ve had a look at your results and we think you are qualified, so would you consider er changing to under training pilot?’ So I said, ‘well yes, I’d be quite happy to.’ I was quite elated to think that er, then er, National Registration Card was stamped U/T pilot, under training pilot. I wasn’t called up until June of that year 1941 and I went down to um, oh prior to that, of course, after I volunteered at Chatham, I did go to Uxbridge to be sworn in, going back to er, being called up, I went down to Babbacombe and spent a week there getting kitted up er, listening to er, lectures on Air Force Law er. and that sort of thing and doing drill, and at the end of that er week, we were then posted to initial training wing, which was number eight at Newquay. That was a six week course which involved er, going back to partially mathematics, basic navigation, Air Force Law, Morse Code, and then at the end of that, I was posted up to a transit camp at er, West Kirby in the Wirral. I had only been there a short while when I was strickened down with appendicitis and peritonitis and er, I was on the dangerously ill list, my parents were sent for to come up because I was not expected to live er, anyway fortune favoured me and I did recover. At the end of that, I was given three weeks, I spent three weeks in an RAF hospital, had two operations and er, at the end of that was given three weeks sick leave er, after which I had to go to RAF Holton for a, a full medical at the end of that they said, ‘we’re going to put you on six months home service, you won’t be able to go abroad.’ Which rather disappointed me because er, there was very little elementary flying being done in England at that stage, nearly all the flying was being done under the Commonwealth Air Training Scheme at Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia and er, lots of places in Canada When I got back to er West Kirby after sick leave, within about three days, I found I was on draft for Southern Rhodesia. Well, I’d always I’d always fancied Canada so I went up to the warrant officer and I said er, ‘can’t send me to Southern Rhodesia,’ showed him my card which said six months home service. So I was taken off draft, spent a few more weeks there just kicking the heels, and then was sent to another transit camp at Heaton Park in Manchester. There again it was a question of weeding gardens, picking up litter, literally didn’t know what to do with you. A few days before Christmas, I suddenly was told I was on draft for Canada, so this time I kept quiet and I was on tenterhooks right up until the day we set sail, which was Christmas Eve and er, on the ship, and we set off. It was a an awful ship er from Norway, it was called “The Bergensfjord” and the weather was atrocious across the Irish Sea, and for thirty six hours I was absolutely stricken down, along with many others, with sea sickness. We were, we were just, people were just laying all over the ship, in the toilets, absolutely prostrate, anyway we finally recovered and we got to, to Halifax Nova Scotia I think it was, er New Year’s Day or thereabouts. From there we caught the train down to Moncton, which was a Royal Canadian Air Force Base, and when we got there that evening, the dining table was a sight to behold. There was butter, sugar, milk, ice cream, steak, you name it, it was there, and we thought if this is what we’re going to get for the next nine months or so, it’s gonna be great. We then went on to er, I was posted to Saskatchewan, which took us three days to get there on, on the train, the seats were just slatted on this train so our backsides had got quite a few dents in when we got there er, it was snowing practically the whole way and quite deep snow at, at er a little place called Caron. There was nothing there apart from the RAF or the RCAF base and er a couple of grain elevators and two or three cottages, it was about eighteen miles west of Moose Jaw, so I did my er, elementary training there on Tiger Moths, which I think was sixty hours, and from there I was posted to a place called Weyburn, which was south east of Moose Jaw, and that was on er twin engine Avro Ansons. At the end of that course, we got our wings and after that we were posted back to Moncton, which included er a week’s leave which I spent with some distant relatives in Toronto, also called Dunn. From there we went up to Halifax again and er, we were shipped back to this country er, arriving here at Greenock, from Greenock we went down to Bournemouth to await a posting er, to carry on the further flying. I went to er Little Rissington and from there er, to Chipping Norton, which was a satellite of er Rissi, and did a er short course on Air Speed Oxfords, which was about I think forty five hours, that was to get used to er the flying conditions in this country because of course, Canada was well lit up, but this country was under blackout conditions so it was quite, quite a change. On completion of that course, I was sent up to er, Lossiemouth er, on er OTU on Wellingtons 1C’s and it was there that we formed our crew, initially of five people. Now the way a crew was formed was quite casual, we were strolling around in a hanger, in my case I um, met up with a chap from Ayr who was a bomb aimer, and he said, ‘are you crewed up yet?’ and I said, ‘no.’ He said er, ‘do you fancy crewing up with me or me with you?’ I said, ‘yeah fair enough.’ he said, ‘I happen to know another Scotsman called er Todd, Jock Todd, he’s a wireless operator. If you like I’ll have a word with him,’ so that was made three of us, we then met up with er, er a pilot officer [phone ringing]. Shall I take that?
CB: So you’ve got your wireless operator.
GD: And er, he said -
CB: And, your bomb aimer.
GD: And he said um, ‘oh I know um, I’ve also met up with pilot office and navigator from Belfast, he’s not crewed up with anyone,’ so we got introduced and er, that made four of us and um, I forget now we, we, we met up with a little Canadian rear gunner er, a little chap called Dixie Dean er, so he made up the five which was all you needed at um OUT. From there we did our, we did our course, and er were then posted to um, Rufforth, which was a Heavy Conversion Unit, Halifaxes er, near York. Whilst we were there er, Reg the navigator knew of another gunner, a mid upper gunner who was er remustered physical training instructor, and er so that made us up with six and then the flight engineer was the only one that was actually allocated. This chap came up to me, his name was Ferris Newton, and he said, ‘er are you George Dunn?’ I said, ‘yes,’ he said, ‘oh I’ve been allocated as your flight engineer,’ so I said, ‘fair enough.’ Well of course it was a bit of a bonus er having him, because it turned out that not only did he own a car but his wife and his mother ran a pub at Horsforth near Leeds, so we used to er get seven of us, if you can believe it, in a Morris 8, that was three in the front and four in the back, and we would go over to er Horsforth from er Rufforth, and er well now perhaps I’m jumping the gun a bit. We didn’t go there then, we waited till we got on squadron, anyway when we got to Rufforth, I’d hardly my feet had hardly touched the ground and they said, ‘you’ve got to go off to 10 Squadron at Melbourne to do your two second dickie trips,’ because a pilot, had to go and do two trips with an experienced crew before he was allowed to take his own crew on operations, but at that time I hadn’t even set foot in a Halifax, most pilots did a few hours flying and then they were sent off, but in my case I was sent off virtually straight away, and of course, of all of all trips, the first one was er Essen, which was probably the worst target that you could er imagine having to go to, probably the most heavily defended town in the Ruhr, so I did two I did Essen that night and Kiel the following night and then went back to um Rufforth to start the conversion on the Halifaxes. And of course, the first thing the others wanted to know, you know, ‘how did you get on George? What was it like?’ so I said, ‘well put it this way, when you go on your first trip make sure that you got a clean pair of underpants with you.’ [laughs] Anyway we, we got through our Heavy Conversion Unit and er we were then posted to 76 Squadron at Linton-on-Ouse. Now at Linton, there were two squadrons operating at the same time, 76 and 78. I did five trips, I think it was, from there with the crew and then sadly they said, ‘your um, your whole squadron is going to a place called Holme on Spalding Moor.’ What had happened was that the Canadian group, number six group, was being formed and they were given all the peacetime stations, and this applied to the Australians as well but both the Australians and the Canadians said, ‘look our chaps are not going in to Nissen Huts, if they go do operations on raids over Germany, there going to have something decent to live in,’ so we were shipped out to a Nissen Camp, and the Canadians and the Australians got all the peacetime stations so that’s where we finished. We carried on our tour from Holme on Spalding Moor, and of course during that during that period, when we got the nights off, we would pile in this Morris 8, three in the front and four in the back, and off to um “The Old Ball” at er Horsforth, and of course the locals were very good to us, we stayed overnight er, one or two of us stayed in the pub, the others were put up by some of the customers, they were very hospitable there’s no doubt about it, and of course, we’d go off back early in the morning, the following morning feeling a bit worse for wear. So where do we go from there?
CB: So when you came to the end, did you do thirty ops per tour?
GD: I did thirty, the rest of the crew didn’t because I had two in front of them.
CB: Yes with somebody else, with another captain did you?
GD: When I went to Number 10 Squadron.
CB: Yes.
GD: Yes.
CB: Right, so what happened then?
GD: Well when we finished our tour of course, we were all split up which was a bit emotional, and from the first morning, following our last trip, the following morning I was woken up by the adjutant and said, ‘sorry, but we’ve got a rather sad task for you. You’ve got to take four coffins containing two Mosquito crews which collided nearby, you’ve got to take them to um, York Station to go to their respective er, er towns where they were being being buried,’ er which was a little bit of an anti-climax because you know, there was only one er place beside the driver, the rest of us had to sit in the back with the coffins. So there we were, we were split up, and er I went to um er OTU at Finningley, Wellingtons again, 1C’s, er I didn’t stay at Finningley long because they had a satellite station at Worksop, and er there I was instructing. I did two instructors courses, one on Wellingtons at Church Broughton and another one, a month at the Central Flying School at er Lulsgate Bottom, which is now Bristol Airport. I carried on instructing until I think it was just before Christmas ’45, and er I saw a notice on the er on the board about er, they wanted er Mosquito crews, well I’d already become friendly with a, with a navigator who was in the navigation section at Worksop, and er I said to him, ‘how do you fancy going back on ops, on Mossis?’ He said, ‘I’m a bit fed up with instructing,’ I said, ‘yeah well so am I,’ so we volunteered to go back and er, we were posted to er, Upper Heyford in Oxfordshire, and from there to er, a satellite station at Barford St. John, which was just outside of Banbury. We did short, I did about four or five hours dual on a Mosquito before I went solo and from there we were posted to 608 Squadron, which was a main force Mosquito Squadron at Downham Market in Norfolk. I did a number of trips there, mostly to Berlin, and then a friend of mine who was on a Mosquito met flight at Whitton said, ‘there’s a vacancy come up for a crew with us on a met flight, do you fancy it?’ So we said, ‘yes,’ we weren’t, we weren’t all that happy at 608 Squadron, I don’t know why but the atmosphere wasn’t the same as when it was on Halifaxes, so we moved to Whitton on this met flight, and er I did er a few ops on that and then war, the war finished and then I stayed on er, I stayed on the met flight, we moved to er Upwood er near Peterborough, and then it was disbanded. It was the 1409, the met flight, and it was disbanded, and we went on to 109 Squadron which was being converted to a met flight, er from there, we had very three quick moves, we went to Woodhall Spa, Wickenby, and Hemswell, all within a month, and then whilst we were at Hemswell, there was a request, they wanted to start a met flight er Mosquitos, at er Malta. So they got ten crews together er and er I’d still got my navigator, and we flew out in a Stirling to Malta and when we got there, the er powers that be said, ‘what are you lot doing here? We don’t know anything about you,’ so we, we appointed, well most of the pilots were flight lieutenants, there’s no other rank above that, so we appointed a spokesman and he went and saw the CO, the Group Captain Station Commander, he said, ‘well I don’t know what’s going on,’ he said, ‘we’ve got no idea of what you are doing there, we, we weren’t told,’ so they gave us er, they gave us an old hut on the far side of Luqa Airfield, they gave us an old lorry to transport us so we just spent a lovely six weeks in Malta going to Valletta and Silema, they didn’t want to know us. Anyway they, whilst we were there, I did manage to get one or two ferry trips in er from Italy in Mosquitos, and er eventually they decided that they weren’t going to form a met flight after all, so we were split up, I went to um a, a, a transit camp at El Marso, which was er well, and my navigator which was just outside Cairo and er literally just kicked our heels. We went into Cario most days, sunbathing at er one of the hotels swimming pools, and then eventually I er got a posting to Ismailia and my navigator got a posting to Heliopolis, which is a suburb of Cairo, and when, and when I got to Ismailia, I reported to the er flight commander, who was er Flight Lieutenant Tommy Grace, I said, well told him the story that I’d been through Malta and we’d er we weren’t required after all and er I said, ‘I don’t know what I’ve come here for?’ I said er, ‘what aircraft do you fly?’ He said, ‘we fly Spitfires,’ so I said, ‘well I haven’t flown a single engine aircraft since I flew a Tiger Moth er when I first er started flying.’ ‘Oh,’ he said ‘I shouldn’t worry about it,’ he said, ‘you’ll soon get used to it,’ gave me the pilots notes on the Spitfire. In those days, there was no dual er Spitfires so er I just got in and went off, and what we were doing, basically we were renovating um aircraft, mostly Spitfires for er the Greek Air Force. We testing them and then there were two Greek pilots there and once we passed them, they had to pass them out and then when we got er about ten Spitfires ready, we used to take them over to Athens with a Lancaster escort to do the navigating and er refuel at er Cyprus, and come back to Egypt in a Lanc as passengers, and of course whilst I was there I managed to get a a trip in a Hurricane, a Mustang and various other training aircraft. Harvard, a thing called a Fairchild Argus, er an Auster, a Proctor. it was a free for all [laughs].
CB: How long were you doing that for?
GD: And then er this would be and then it got to um, it would be, I suppose about May and I had a phone call to say I was wanted over at a tented camp, everything was tents, the mess, the living quarters, everything was tents. There wasn’t a building there apart from the hangars and they said er, ‘we’ve got some Halifaxes here that er we want testing, and we haven’t got a, there’s not a Halifax pilot in the area anywhere that we can know of.' Well just a few weeks prior to that, an engineering officer had also been posted from Kasfareet where I was then, to this place at er Kilo 40, which was known as Gebel Hamzi and um, he’s gone to sleep look [laughs].
CB: He’s doing all right.
GD: [Laughs] and er there were some Yugoslav pilots there who er had never flown Halifaxes, so I had to take them up, test these Halifaxes and er pass these er Yugoslav pilots out to fly them.
CB: Where had they come from then?
GD: Don’t know where they come from, er and then of course whilst I, whilst I was there, I got the opportunity of flying a couple back to this country and er also in that time, I flew, I think it was a couple of Mosquitoes back here, er and my last flight in June ’47 was to bring a Halifax back here which I left at er Thetford.
CB: But what was your unit? If you were flying these things and ferrying them, what was the unit? Was it an MU or was it a squadron?
GD: No, no, no, it wasn’t a squadron. I’ll tell you what it was [opens a draw looking for something].
CB: So just get them. So your unit was at Ismailia still but it was actually an MU as well as flying base?
GD: Well that’s, that’s what it was called, 132 MU.
CB: MU yes.
GD: There was no squadron.
CB: No.
GD: No squadron or anything like that.
CB: What I meant was, MU didn’t normally -
GD: Just 132 and 132 MU
CB: Yes. [Pause] So when you, you delivered the aircraft, Halifax or Mosquito, how did they get you back there?
GD: I came back in used to come back in the York
CB: Ah.
GD: Yeah, where are we [flipping through pages of book] yeah came back in the York from Lyneham.
CB: Lyneham. So you’d fly all these planes into Lyneham would you?
GD: No, no er, one, once I went to Gosforth with one and then we’d nip home for a few days leave and er report back to Lyneham for for, ‘cos that was transport command.
CB: Right. So why were these planes being brought back, what had happened to their crews?
GD: I don’t know, you know, I don’t even know why they were there.
CB: Because the Yugoslav pilots were flying the Halifaxes.
GD: I don’t know where they went to, I was only there, when did I go there, October ’46 I went to Kilo 40 [looking through book], yes I was only there for, only there for a short period.
CB: Yes, but what was the reason for you going out to Ismailia in the first place?
GD: Well that was when, that was when we, we didn’t form the met flight er see.
CB: Right.
GD: When they split us all up at Malta, I don’t know where the others went to but my navigator and myself found ourselves at El Marsa, at this transit camp near Cairo.
CB: So when you returned the Halifaxes to Britain, was it just the two of you on the plane?
GD: Oh no, no.
CB: You had a full crew?
GD: No, no, no we didn’t have gunners, just er er wireless op, navigator, flight engineer, and pilot.
CB: Right.
GD: No, no need for gunners.
CB: No.
GD: And then of course we used to have to clear customs er when we got back here in those days.
CB: What were you bringing back - figs?
GD: [Laughs] Oh they were very hot the customs yeah. I brought a Mosquito back once and they were, they were quite thorough, went all through the fuselage and everything.
CB: What did people bring back then carpets or? I mean a serious point because in the Middle East they made carpets.
GD: Well I suppose people, a few people tried to get back cigarettes and booze, usual thing, but er it wasn’t worth it. No they were too thorough.
CB: So that’s October ’46, you didn’t leave until ’47 so what did you do the rest of the time?
GD: Well I was flying, um doing mostly flying Spitfires on testing.
CB: Because at the MU they’d been repairing them.
GD: Yes, yes.
CB: Any hiccups with that, when you were test flying?
GD: No, no they were, they were in pretty good condition, yeah, but I mean, see there’s one there, Halifax in January er I brought it back to Manston for customs clearance and then took it up to Scotland, to a place called Edsel, but for the life of me, I don’t know how I got back from there. Must have been by rail I think, then the next thing was coming back I, I delivered it to Edsel on the 17th January and flew back in a York a week later.
CB: How long did it take in a York to fly to Ismailia, you made a load of stops?
GD: Er fourteen hours, we went to er Castel Benito and then on to El Marsa, Palestine.
CB: Castel Benito.
GD: No Egypt, North Africa.
CB: Ah yes, in Libya, yes. So how did you find those ferry trips, were they exciting, boring or-
GD: Oh boring, nothing to do, I mean they weren’t comfortable.
CB: What sort of height would you fly?
GD: Oh no idea really.
CB: To keep cool I was thinking.
GD: Wouldn’t be, wouldn’t be that high I shouldn’t think.
CB: No.
GD: Probably around fifteen thousand, probably yes.
CB: So what was the most memorable point about your service in the RAF would you say?
GD: Are you talking about an operation? oh I think um, probably the raid on Peenemunde which er -
CB: How did that go?
GD: Well from our point of view, it went very well but er not so, because when we er, when we went to the briefing er that afternoon, the first thing we noted was that there was extra RAF Police on the door, which we thought was rather unusual and er of course when we got inside and everbody was there and they drew the curtains back, we saw the er the red ribbon going right the way up the North Sea across Denmark to keep us clear of the flak on the North German coast. But er when we were in the briefing, you know, they, they pulled the curtains back and when we saw this track and then it finished up at this vague point on the Baltic coast. I mean we were used to bombing from about eighteen, nineteen thousand feet on German cities you know, big areas, and this target and we weren’t told the precise nature of what was going on there, all we were told was that it was a research station connected with radar, but that it was a very important raid as far as we were concerned, as far as this country was concerned. Because we thought, well I mean, it was just five hundred and ninety six aircraft, what are five hundred and ninety six aircraft doing on a target not much bigger than about two football stadiums, where we were used to er, I mean huge areas. What could possibly be there that would warrant a maximum effort from Bomber Command and of course initially, it was gonna, the raid was gonna take place in three waves, two bomber, two bomber groups in each wave. Now initially, 4 Group which was Halifaxes, together with another Group, I can’t remember which one it was, was scheduled to go in last. Our aiming point was the living quarters where all the scientists and the technicians were, but the schedule was changed, we were moved from the last wave to the first, because they were frightened that our aiming point was gonna to be obscured by smoke from the smoke detonators, so they moved us to the first wave. Which as it turned out was very fortunate from our point of view, I mean we, we ran in on our final run in, er the flak was only light and we, we bombed and turned out and came away, but of course when the raid was halfway over, the night fighters arrived because what had happened in, in with the main force, there were about a small force of Mosquitoes I think it was, about eight that went on to Berlin because they wanted them to think that it was a raid on Berlin. So the Mosquitoes veered off to Berlin, we veered left to Peenemunde and of course, over the previous months Peenemunde had got a bit complacent, because at one time, when Berlin was bombed, although it was about um, I think it was about sixty miles away, the air raid sirens and that all went off at Peenemunde and everything was shut down so it interrupted their all their work. But then of course, Peenemunde was never bombed, it was always Berlin, so of course they got complacent, so when we got there that night, they had no idea that was there was going to be a raid, and over Berlin the Mosquitoes had been dropping window, you know the little slips of aluminium which had been previously used on Hamburg, and the night fighters of course were at their usual height, looking for the heavy bombers at eighteen, twenty, twenty one thousand, and they weren’t there and it was er the, the ground controllers were in turmoil they, the -.
CB: The German ones?
GD: Yeah the German ones. The night fighters were saying well where are they, and the ground controllers couldn’t tell them, and it wasn’t until one pilot happened to spot the fires at Peenemunde about halfway through the raid, that they realised that it was Peenemunde that was being bombed. So of course all the night fighters and I mean it was a perfect night, it was no cloud, er moonlight, we, we went in at seven thousand feet instead of eighteen, nineteen thousand, and er of course once the night fighters got there, they had a field day. We finished up losing forty aircraft, nearly three hundred men
CB: Amazing
GD: So that change from us going from the third to the first wave, I might not have been talking to you now.
CB: Yes yes, saved you. So how long was that flight?
GD: Well it was about seven hours forty I think.
CB: Right.
GD: Seven hours forty I think.
CB: Now going over the Baltic and then, first of all over Denmark and then over the Baltic, how close did you get to Sweden?
GD: Oh not that close the, the main place that we had to er miss if possible was Flensburg, that was a bit of a hot spot for flak, seven hours forty, and then we had er, we had a bad hydraulic leak, so when we came back, we were diverted to a place called Wymeswold in er Lincolnshire, we had to leave the aircraft there it was.
CB: Oh, did you.
GD: Yes, couldn’t fly it back.
CB: So you got the undercarriage down by winding it down did you?
GD: No, no we got the undercarriage down all right, we had no flaps.
CB: Oh I see.
GD: We didn’t have any flaps.
CB: Mmm, okay, so that was the most memorable event of your ops?
GD: The only other thing the, the nearest I suppose I got to getting the chop was um when I was instructing at er Worksop. I was in charge of night flying one night and I had a pupil by the name of Flying Officer Jennings, he was quite experienced, he’d come from flying training command, and he was down to do circuits and bumps, and the, it was a bit like this er, the weather was, it was a bit hazy, not bad not as bad as this, and I said to him, ‘well I’ll come with you on the first circuit, just to make sure that the weather conditions are okay for you to carry on.’ er and I’d arranged for, after we landed, for him to taxi round to the take off point where er transport, I got out, transport picked me up and he went off on his next circuit. When he came round and for some reason, he overshot. Now why he overshot I don’t know whether it was, whether he made an error on his approach or whatever I, I don’t know, anyway that was it, never saw him again. It turned out he crashed at er somewhere near Nottingham and at the, I had to go down to the, I had to go down to the Court of Enquiry and eventually it was found that a prop line had come off so -
CB: Was that the implication it destroyed the aircraft because of vibration or the blade hit the pilot?
GD: I don’t know, I didn’t get the full result, all I know a prop line had come off it would I mean er I don’t know whether he had a chance to feather it or so that was that was a bit of a near do [laughs].
CB: Yeah, How did you like being an instructor?
GD: Oh it was all right but it, it got a bit, it got a bit boring after a while, you know, when you were teaching somebody circuits and landings all that, and then you’d have to go on a cross country with them when they were doing there um, er navigation, they were doing their cross countries you had to er sort of sit there for four or five hours.
CB: Now what about the social life surrounding all of this, how did that work?
GD: Well squadron life was actually quite good because there was no er no bull at all, you know, we didn’t have, we didn’t have parades or anything like that. I mean a typical day would be, we’d go down to flights about nine, nine thirty, report to flight commander, have a look up when they decided whether there was ops on that night, you know, and look at the battle order and see whether you were on. And then er you might go and do an air test if er, there’d been something wrong with your aircraft might go and do an air test, or you might go down to the intelligence office, spend an hour down there, you might go on sometimes, we’d do what you call dry dinghy drill. We’d go out to the dispersal and practice, getting out if we had to ditch um, we might go and do a bit of aircraft recognition, go down the parachute section have a look at them packing parachutes. By lunchtime you were free to do what you want, I mean I played football, I played cricket, I played squash, tennis er it was quite um a sort of casual life apart from the er you know the operations and that the rest of it, was, was quite nice.
CB: Now the successful flight of an aircraft is partly based on ground crew, so how did they, what were they like.
GD: We had a smashing ground crew, you couldn’t, you couldn’t have done the job without them. I mean er we used to take them down to the pub for a beer every now and again, but er you know, you relied on them doing their job properly.
CB: And how many planes did they look after, one, two?
GD: Ooh. I would think, I mean the people that looked after our plane were, always looked after that one and they probably have another, maybe another one, another two.
CB: A topic that comes up occasionally is LMF. What experience did you have of that?
GD: Lack of moral fibre.
CB: Yes.
GD: Yeah we did have one chap that er got er turfed off, he was always turning back, flying officer, and always turning back for some reason or the other until they um they cottoned on to him er and he was shipped off to Sheffield, stripped of his rank.
CB: What did they do to make an example of him, at the station. Did they do anything?
GD: No, one minute they were, there the next minute they were gone, it was all very quick. That was the only, that was the only case that I remember that stood out er.
CB: But that was your squadron?
GD: Yeah.
CB: Was it, how many squadrons on the airfield?
GD: Only ours
CB: Only yours.
GD: Except for Linton.
CB: Yes.
GD: Before we split up with 78, 78 went to Breighton, we went to Holme on Spalding Moor.
CB: And how many aircraft would there be in the squadron?
GD: Er probably about thirty.
CB: So four flights?
GD: Three.
CB: Three flights.
GD: A, B, and C.
CB: Ok.
GD: Roughly ten aircraft a flight.
CB: Some of the raids were quite dicey, others were quiet. How many times did you get chased by fighters?
GD: We never got, we were lucky, we never got chased by a fighter. We got involved with flak quite a bit ‘cos the Ruhr, most of my er trips were to the Ruhr, and er that was pretty heavy for flak there.
CB: So on the run in, can you just talk us through how that worked, what was the timespan you had to settle down before on your way in, so how would that work?
GD: You tried, you tried to get on to your course, your final course for the run in, and then for say five minutes roughly, you were in the hands of the bomb aimer, completely in his hands, you know. He would say, ‘right, left, left, steady, steady, a bit more left,’ until he got to the stage when he would say, ‘bombs are gone,’ and then of course, you had to wait, you had to stay on course for your photo flash.
CB: So how was the, the time you had to stay on course depended on your height for the photo flash to drop, so who worked that out, was that prescribed before you set off?
GD: Yes I mean height, height didn’t really come into it because you knew you were going in at say er eighteen, nineteen thousand, I mean you knew that before you started.
CB: Yes that’s what I meant.
GD: That would be your bombing height so the er flash was er, would follow on from there, but you definitely, that was the worst part, making sure that you stayed until flash operated.
CB: So the bombs went, you were some way from the target when the bombs went?
GD: We were still, yes.
CB: Because of their parabola of the fall.
GD: Forward fall, yes.
CB: And photo flash went how soon after the bombs were released.
GD: Approximately half a minute.
CB: Right, so on balance, you’d have to be steady in order to take your picture, for how long roughly?
GD: About half a minute.
CB: Right, and who operated the camera the bomb aimer or -
GD: That was automatic.
CB: Oh automatic, and what did they do with that picture?
GD: Went to intelligence you might, I don’t think I’ve actually got any, any um somewhere, that’s the sort of picture, look that could be taken, that was probably, that was probably er er a flare.
CB: Yeah, blowing in the wind.
GD: Yeah, but you would, you would hopefully try and get ground detail if possible in the flash.
CB: So what about the smoke, to what extent was smoke over the target a problem for you?
GD: Well yeah, I mean basically, I mean, you bombed on the reds and greens put down by pathfinders.
CB: By pathfinders yeah.
GD: And it was, if it was um er, cloud of course, you did, they did air markings which was called whanganui, I think the air markers but of course, that wasn’t all that accurate.
CB: To what extent could you see other aircraft in the vicinity?
GD: You could see if they were close enough and of course, you did see aircraft being shot down as well.
CB: How did you feel about that?
GD: Hard luck.
CB: Yes.
GD: Not us, I mean my friend Dave at Balcombe we were talking about, they were involved in a mid-air collision.
CB: Were they?
GD: With another Lancaster, they lost six foot of their wing.
CB: And still kept flying?
GD: Managed to get back and land safely.
CB: What about the one that hit them?
GD: The what?
CB: What about the one that hit them?
GD: All went down, all killed.
CB: Oh were they.
GD: Yes.
CB: So effectively, the propeller sliced off the end of the wing but that completely jiggered the other aircraft?
GD: Yeah, well they’d got no aileron, you see.
CB: Right.
GD: The aileron went.
CB: Right.
GD: So he had a job, he had a job to er, I think they lost an engine as well I think on that, so they had yeah er, quite a job bringing it back.
CB: So as a pilot, how would you handle a three engine with bad damage?
GD: Well you’ve got, you’ve got trimming tabs which er would allow you to make sure that the aircraft would go the way you wanted it to, er the trimming tabs of course were actually on the ailerons, but of course on one side, they’d gone.
CB: Yes.
GD: Of course you could, you could feather the engine, you see, where the prop, where the prop blades turn, so you got the least wind resistance.
CB: Yes, so er your speed would normally be what?
GD: Halifax, about a hundred and sixty.
CB: Oh, was it knots or miles per hour?
GD: Knots.
CB: Right, so that’s a hundred and sixty, hundred and seventy five miles an hour. Now were the other bombers in the stream at different heights, so was there a level that the Halifaxes flew at, and a different one that the Lancasters flew at?
GD: Yes.
CB: Why was that?
GD: Well you obviously tried to er spread the raid out as much as you could, if you had everybody, if you had sort of six hundred aircraft, all flying at the same height, whereas Stirlings would be down here, Halifaxes would be there, Lancasters would be there, but er there was always a risk of course and it did happen, that er you would get hit by somebody else’s bomb.
CB: Yeah. Did you see any of that happening?
GD: No, well you saw an explosion but you wouldn’t know what caused it.
CB: No, and thinking of explosions, to what extent did you see aircraft shot down from underneath by Germans, German night fighters?
GD: They hadn’t got that when we on [unclear].
CB: Oh they hadn’t.
GD: No schlagermusic.
CB: Schlagermusic
GD: Yeah, no, that came a bit later.
CB: Okay, so I think we’ve covered a huge range of things but after you left the RAF, what did you do?
GD: I went back to Pickfords, I did my um er, B Licence in London and er went to London School of Air Navigation, but there were so many of us on the market and of course, I mean, in my digs alone, there were nineteen pilots and, and they had about five courses running at the same time, I mean the, the civil airlines hadn’t really got going, the people that scored were the RAF pilots that were seconded to British European Airways before they were demobbed, before the war finished perhaps, but er ‘cos they got in on the ground floor. I mean they’d, in fact I went into the gents, I think it was in was it in Malta, and I stood next to my flight commander at er Holme on Spalding Moor, he was with er British European Airways.
CB: Oh, was he, right.
GD: So, so I, I, I er, I tried one or two places to get a job, but er there was nothing doing, so I went back to Pickfords, because they had to keep your job open you see, all, all companies had to keep your job available for you and in any case, they were, they were half the people anyway, the company and I stayed with them until I retired.
CB: At sixty five.
GD: Sixty.
CB: Sixty. What was you doing at Pickfords then?
GD: I was a branch manager.
CB: Right.
GD: Mmm.
CB: Round here?
GD: And we had a travel business as well.
CB: So where were you operating from, from Pickfords?
GD: Well when I came out the RAF, I went back to Hearne Bay for a while um, for a couple of years, and then I was posted up to Lancashire, er stayed there for about six and a half years, and then down to Aldershot, where I was, I was there for eleven years, and then finally down to here, where I retired. I retired early because there was those were when the pressure started being put on people to produce more [laughs], I’d had enough of that, I did, I didn’t stop work, I, I found several, I used to work for other removal companies, doing estimating and er I went up to London, stood in for the training officer that suddenly went back to Australia. I was there for six months doing the, doing their training so er I didn’t actually pack up work.
CB: As far as associations concerned, was there a squadron association running for many years that you were associated with?
GD: No, not, not to start with, er 76 Squadron Association of course is still going today, um did go to one or two reunions and I also went to two Bomber Command reunions.
CB: Yes.
GD: Where the first one I think was run by the Evening Standard or it was at the Albert Hall.
CB: Oh the Albert Hall.
GD: And everyone was shouting, ‘we want butch, we want butch,’ [laughs].
CB: He’d gone to South Africa. So how do you feel about the, getting the position of getting the clasp now for Bomber Command but not having -
GD: Well I mean quite honestly, when you look at it and you see what it is, and it took all that time and all that argument and, and discussion, and when you finish up with not, I wasn’t bothered about it.
CB: Right, how did you feel about bombing?
GD: Oh I mean don’t forget that. What was I, was, I had my twenty first birthday two weeks after I’d finished my tour on Halifaxes and I mean in those days, an eighteen to twenty year old was a lot different to an eighteen twenty year old today. We were a lot more naïve and don’t forget, I’d seen a lot living at Whitstable, I’d seen all these hordes of German bombers going up to London, and of course places like Coventry and Plymouth and er Southampton, all those places got very badly bombed. And er er no I mean war is war, and women and children are going to get killed, it’s unavoidable. I mean if you take er factories, er take the Ruhr for example, if you’ve got factories, you are going to have people living near them, workers and er not all bombs are going to hit the factory. I, I’ve never felt any guilt about it and of course Bomber Command did get a bad press after the war, what with Dresden.
CB: So when the RAF memorial was unveiled, how did you feel about that?
GD: I thought that was something, it was well worthwhile, well worth waiting for.
CB: ‘Cos you were there?
GD: Yeah it was, it’s a marvellous monument, it’s a marvellous memorial. I mean the sculpture is beautiful. No I think it was, it should have happened a lot earlier, I mean not so much for the people that survived but for the fifty five and half thousand that didn’t.
CB: Yes.
GD: Was a lot you know I mean out of a hundred, what’s it, a hundred and twenty five?
CB: A hundred and twenty five thousand.
GD: Over five fifty five and half killed.
CB: Fifty five thousand five hundred.
GD: It’s a big percentage.
CB: Yes 44.4.
GD: Well take Peenemunde for example.
CB: Yes.
GD: You know fourteen aircraft, nearly three hundred men in one night, and that was only one raid in the war.
CB: Good. Thank you very much indeed, really interesting, fascinating actually.
CB: Just as a recap George, in your early days, when you were at OTU and then HCU and then on the squadron, er how did you go through training for evading fighters? Did you have fighter affiliation? How did that work?
GD: Well the only fighter affiliation we had was when we were at, not on the squadron. I didn’t do any on the squadron but on HCU, we’d just go off and then er we knew that somewhere, usually it was a spitfire who would er appear from nowhere, your gunners, your gunners would be on the alert and er give you the instruction you know, ‘corkscrew right, corkscrew left, dive,’ and er I think we only did about two when I was on HCU two fighter affiliations.
CB: But there would always be a corkscrew in the affiliation would there?
GD: Yes.
CB: And in earnest, how often did you have to use er, corkscrew?
GD: Only once, er I’m trying to think which raid it was, um we got, we got coned.
CB: Oh yes by searchlights.
GD: By one of the um, one of the radar patrolled searchlights, and of course, you were like a, like a, once you’re coned with the blue one, all the others come on and you’re like a fairy sitting on top of a Christmas tree and er straight away, you corkscrew out. We didn’t have to corkscrew because of a fighter but only because of the er getting coned.
CB: And that worked did it?
GD: That worked yeah, but um, er it’s not pleasant.
CB: No.
GD: You just sit sitting up there er, you know, as I say with a like a fairy on a Christmas tree [laughs], you know, you’re the focal point and you’ve gotta get out of it as soon as you can, but fortunately that was the only time we had to do it in combat. We, we were lucky on our tour, we had, I would say, I mean apart from the heavy flak which you got er most of the time um, we, we didn’t get attacked by a fighter and um we had probably a reasonably good tour.
CB: Much damage to the aircraft from flak?
GD: Yeah a few flak holes, yeah, nothing serious.
CB: Ground crew reaction to damaging their aeroplane?
GD: Yeah [laughs], what you bring it like that for [laughs], you ought to know better [laughs].
CB: Did it cost you a beer or two?
GD: Yes [laughs], yes.
CB: So with the ground crew, how did the liaison go?
GD: Oh very well, in fact I kept in touch with one of our ground crew after the war, er a fellow called Johnnie, Johnnie somebody, lived in Stoke Newington.
CB: Was he the chiefy?
GD: No, not the chiefy.
CB: And with the ground crew, who was the main, the person normally linking with them in the aircrew. Was it the pilot or would it be the engineer?
GD: Well both really er because you see, you had the engine fitter, the airframe fitter, the instrument fitter, the instrument man, the armourer, so er they were all they were all involved.
CB: Because you were on the fighting edge of technology in those days, so did you have Gee?
GD: Yeah.
CB: And how did you feel about the use of Gee?
GD: Very good, only trouble was you only got it to about five degrees east.
CB: And you didn’t have GH in those days?
GD: No of course, pathfinders of course came in with H2S and Oboe. I mean the marking the PFM marking was good, yes.
CB: And you’d know the colour of the markers before you set off, would you?
GD: Yes, I mean basically you bombed on the reds.
CB: Right.
GD: Or if not the reds, the green back ups.
CB: Would there always be a master bomber hovering?
GD: No the master bomber, there was a master bomber on Peenemunde, Group Captain Searby, and he directed the er he would say, you know, ‘ignore so and so, or bomb so and so, stop, stop the creepback,’ or whatever.
CB: Was the creep a problem?
GD: Pardon?
CB: Was, was creep much of a problem on targets?
GD: Well it wasn’t providing you stuck to bombing the indicators that you were supposed to, but of course there were some crews you know, that er got a bit hesitant, and er just get rid of them quick and of course if you’ve got fires showing up, you might have your red and green markers, but then you might have fires back coming back, but they weren’t marked so er yeah, there were, there was a bit of creepback sometimes.
CB: Did they have to remark sometimes?
GD: Well I don’t know because you see, you were once you’d done your bombing run.
CB: Yes.
GD: You don’t know what was going on other than that, but we didn’t have any, we didn’t have any master bomber, we didn’t have any master bombers apart from Peenemunde. On er the only other time I was involved with a master bomber was er when we went to er, I think it was Kiel er with a Mosquito, we had a, we had a [looking through book] a special camera.
CB: On the Mosquito?
GD: On that particular night we had a special camera, and we had to er report the um weather conditions to the er master bomber
CB: Right.
GD: On that I don’t know when that was, ‘46 [looking through book], and yeah must have been the last, must have been probably the last one, yeah, we were hit that one, there we were hit in, on both nose cones on er Mosquitos.
CB: By flak?
GD: On a Berlin, yeah, flak hits on both spillers.
CB: Oh, on the spillers.
GD: Yes.
CB: So you were lucky not to lose the engines?
GD: Well yeah because if they’d hit the, if they’d have hit the glycol tanks, that would have been it, there wouldn’t have been any time hardly to -
CB: Was there a particularly vulnerable point on the Mosquito?
GD: No not really, only the engines, ‘cos liquid cooled, so if you got hit with a, if your glycol got punctured, then that was it.
CB: So, you did thirty ops on your first tour.
GD: Yes.
CB: How many did you do on Mosquitos?
GD: Fourteen.
CB: And what stopped that?
GD: The war ended.
CB: Right, now you’ve got a DFC, when was that awarded?
GD: After the completion of the tour on the Halifaxes.
CB: On the Halifaxes, your first tour, do you have the citation for that?
GD: Mm somewhere [laughs].
CB: Only I’m just wondering how they worded it you see?
GD: Oh haven’t got it that I know of, it could be somewhere amongst the debris up in the loft [laughs].
CB: So when you were commissioned was that expected or unexpected?
GD: Unexpected I think, mind you, I think most pilots got commissioned round about halfway through their tour, I mean it was quite a, I was just told that I’d been recommended and went up before the group captain and that was it, it came through.
CB: What did he say?
GD: I can’t remember.
CB: You’re a jolly good.
GD: Funnily enough the next time I met him, he was a Group Captain Hodson, and er when I was at Ismailia, for my sins, I was Tennis Officer [laughs], and er the Group Captain there was a chap called Fletcher, and he called me in one day and he said, ‘I’ve got the Air Vice Marshall coming over from 205 Group in Cairo to play tennis with me, so I want you to make sure everything is tickety boo.’ You know, we had a, we had a pro, a pro, a civilian tennis chap there and he said, I want of course the AOC turned up, I don’t know what he came in, whether he came in an Oxford or not, turned up and Group Captain Fletcher introduced me and it was the same Group Captain that interviewed me for my commission.
CB: Small world. So he said?
GD: He did look at me and he said, ‘I’ve got an idea we might have met before.’ I said, ‘yes sir,’ I said, ‘you interviewed me for my commission,’ ‘that’s it,’ he said, ’76 Squadron.’ Air Vice Marshall Hodson.
CB: Thinking of senior officers and operations, how often did Group Captains and even Wing Commanders go on ops?
GD: It’s funny you should say that, we lost two fairly quickly.
CB: Two which?
GD: Two Group Captains, two Station Commanders.
CB: Did you?
GD: The first one was um er I can’t think of this name, I think his name was er, he got bombed in fact I think there might have been three There was one when the squadron was at Driffield and Driffield was bombed and the station commander was killed.
CB: Early in the war?
GD: Would be, yeah.
CB: Battle of Britain?
GD: And er Group Captain Whittley went as second pilot to a chap called um Jock, it’s in the, it’s in the [unclear] book, oops.
CB: The cups gone over, have you got a cloth.
GD: Group Captain Whittley.
CB: This is the squadron history, is it?
GD: Yeah, see the dawn breaking.
CB: Right.
GD: Er [looking through book] Group Captain John Whittley 1576, yeah, Group Captain Garaway was the one that lost his life in the um he was er
CB: In the bombing raid?
GD: Linton, Linton Station Commander, Group Captain Garaway OBE was struck and killed by fragments from an anti-personnel bomb whilst leading a team to extinguish a serious incendiary blade er blaze, and then of course Whittley followed him. Ah yes, another one 76 [looking through book], yes he flew with er a chap called Jock Cary er and er four were killed, Group Captain Whittley, Pilot Officer David and Sergeants’ Davis and Strange evaded capture and then there was a Wilson, just wondered what happened to him. I think there were three Group Captains in 76 who were lost.
CB: Who were Station Commanders?
GD: Yes.
CB: Were they were allowed to fly, encouraged to fly or how did it work?
GD: They were not encouraged to fly really, they would only do one trip, a trip every now and again.
CB: Yes.
GD: You see even the squadron commanders didn’t. I mean the squadron commander squadron leader, he could probably take up to a year to do his tour because he might only fly once a month.
CB: The wing commander.
GD: And the wing commander.
CB: He’d be the wing commander, the squadron commander.
GD: No that was the flight commander, the squadron commander again, he would only fly er our um, our er squadron commander was a chap called Don Smith, oh what’s a name, a squadron commander that left a week, a fortnight before I joined Cheshire, he was at 76 at Linton and he’d just gone when I joined, yeah.
CB: He had an American wife who used to play the piano in the mess.
GD: Yes, yes.
CB: That came from an earlier interview. Right I think we’ve done extraordinarily well.
GD: That was the code name for um, sky marking, nearly all the er code names for marking were New Zealand, you had Paramata um, what else Paramata.
CB: Oh right.
GD: Paramater.
WT: Betemangui here and how did you and I understand the pathfinders went in which were hugely Mosquitos?
CB: They were Lancasters.
GD: They were both.
WT: And they dropped flares?
GD: Yes
WT: On the bombing area on the area?
GD: Known as target indicators.
WT: How long before you, the bombers, followed them in to bomb, how soon after the flares or whatever it was that were dropped, did the bombers actually come in?
GD: Well I can’t answer that right, because er when we, every trip that I went on the target was nearly always alight when we got there, it would only be the people that were actually in the very first wave that would that would know that.
WT: Right.
GD: I wouldn’t think it wouldn’t be long because er you see once the indicators had gone down, the ground people would know that that was going to be a raid so they would want to get the bombs dropping er fairly quickly.
WT: But I mean were they actually flares that were dropped so they’d burn out fairly quickly?
GD: Oh no, no, they kept alight for a while.
WT: And when you couldn’t see the ground you mentioned sky marking.
GD: Sky marking. Whanganui.
WT: How does that work?
GD: Well they were coloured lights in the sky that would hover, which is why sky marking wasn’t all that accurate because you see they -
CB: They would drift.
GD: They would drift, a ground marker.
WT: Don’t flares drift ground markers?
GD: Oh no, because they’d be actually on the ground, they’d be burning.
WT: Yes.
GD: On the ground
WT: No I meant, sorry I’m being a bit pedantic, but if you’ve got quite a strong wind, and okay, they would allow for that, but I mean, they aren’t going to get it right all the time, you could find that the flares have moved away from the target but therefore?
GD: But that would only happen before they hit the ground,
WT: Right.
GD: Wouldn’t it? If you were dropping a target indicator.
WT: Yes.
GD: It could move before it hit the ground but they, they would know the wind and they would that would be allowed for.
WT: So the accuracy of the pathfinders, for what I’m really getting to, who dropped the flares not only was it critical, but they were very accurate.
GD: Yes because don’t forget, they had what they called Oboe which was er direction where the lines crossed and er they um, Oboe was quite accurate and they would, they would drop their target indicator according to the grat[unclear]
CB: This is transmitters sending out a signal in a line that would then converge in the point where the bomb was to be dropped, that was in the later part of the war.
WT: Very good.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George Dunn
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-08
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADunnGC170308
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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01:34:14 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
George Dunn DFC joined the Royal Air Force in June 1941 and initially trained as a Wireless Operator/Air Gunner, before training in Canada as a Pilot. He flew aircraft such as Avro Ansons and Airspeed Oxford.
He tells of his experiences as ‘second dickey’ on trips to Essen and Kiel, before joining No. 76 Squadron at Linton-on-Ouse, flying Handley Page Halifaxes. He also spent time on 10 Squadron and was finally transferred to 608 Squadron based at Downham Market in Suffolk flying Mosquitos.
George tells of his trip to Malta, and flying Spitfires that were being renovated for the Greek Air Force.
George flew 30 operations flying Halifaxes and a further 14 flying the Mosquito.
After the war, George returned to his previous company, Pickfords, where he worked as a Branch Manager before retiring at the age of 60.
Contributor
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Vivienne Tincombe
10 Squadron
109 Squadron
608 Squadron
76 Squadron
Anson
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
ground crew
Halifax
lack of moral fibre
Master Bomber
memorial
mid-air collision
Mosquito
Oboe
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
perception of bombing war
RAF Chipping Norton
RAF Downham Market
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
RAF Upper Heyford
Spitfire
target indicator
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/605/8874/PMatthewsEH1501.2.jpg
07bb41282e142374781bf2112f1129de
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/605/8874/AMatthewsEH151013.1.mp3
dc51483b34648765b1e7054ad5ee5c36
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Matthews, Edward Harry
E H Matthews
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Matthews, EH
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Edward 'Ted' Matthews (1925 - 2017, 1899046 Royal Air Force), his log book flight engineer's course notebook and photographs. He flew operations as flight engineer with 77 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff and Nigel Huckins.
Date
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2015-10-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: Today we’re in Haddenham and speaking with Edward Harry Matthews ‘Ted’ about his experiences as a flight engineer with 77 Squadron. My name is Chris Brockbank and I’m accompanied by Mr Edward Andrews as a witness. Ted, where did you — where were you born? How did life run for you in your early days and then right through to your retirement?
EM: I was born in Worthing. My father was a manager of a gent’s outfitter. We were fairly well off in those days but coming up to the war we — dad was made redundant and we had to move to South Norwood. When I was there the school I went to was Stanley Technical College which I went to until I was fourteen. From there I got a job with the Croydon Technical College as a lab assistant. But again, dad had to move his job and we came to Esher where I went to work for the Admiralty research as a lab assistant in the ASDIC and fire control of ships. It was from there I joined the air force. I was about coming up to eighteen so I would have had to have joined by conscription. I volunteered for aircrew and after the interview in — I think it was Euston Road they said, ‘Ok. You can be a flight engineer.’ I returned to my job for a few months and I was sent then, when I joined the air force, to St John’s Wood. The aircrew reception for the square bashing, more tests and kitting out. Three weeks there and I went to Newquay on ITW for six weeks. From there I went to Locking for introduction to aircraft engineering. It was Locking near Weston Super Mare. Having completed that course I was then sent to St Athans for the major course. I passed out there fairly well and I was, had a few weeks [pause] well flying training in Oxfords and even in Tiger Moths. From there I was sent to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Riccall. I met with my skipper at a rather different way from the usual. His flight engineer was taken sick and during a flight with him he had engine trouble and I managed to sort it out. And after that he decided I was going to be his flight engineer. Well, just after Christmas we were sent to 77 Squadron. The first raid being to mines, a daylight. A fairly busy sort of raid. Not too hectic. Nothing much. From there the next one –
[pause]
CB: Just looking in your logbook.
EM: The next one was Cologne. Another daylight. That was interesting because we were told not to hit the cathedral there. We were there to aim at the bridges over the Rhine. Our bomb aimer, as we were coming up said, ‘Oh I think I can hit those bridges. I can put my bombs straight through between the two spires,’ [laughs] but I don’t think we did hit the bridges. We missed them [laughs] but we shook them up I believe. After that we had a night raid to the Ruhr to Kamen which was an oil dump. Now, this one really got exciting. This was the one where we came back and when we were approaching landing — on the radio we were told there were intruders around. So, the skipper told the gunners to stay in place. It’s just as well he did because as we were approaching the circuit there was a JU188 coming the other way. And following that we had a dogfight from over Full Sutton all the way up to Croft where we’d been diverted. At Croft he disappeared for a while so we managed to land which was just as well because we were so low in fuel another — almost minutes, we’d have run out. We landed. I went back and locked the controls and while I was in locking the controls the others had got out and were sort of having five minutes. But while I was in there I heard this terrific noise. Bang and aircraft engines. I looked out and there they were running down the peritrack being chased by this JU188. They found a sort of dug out at the side of the runway and jumped into it and they were up to their knees in mud and water. Very unpleasant. Anyway, we were, we were lucky. We got away with it. This was the part of what the Germans called Operation Gisela. There was the three operations they did. About nine hundred aircraft flew in with us in the bomber stream. It was their last sort of major and during this time on that raid we’d lost seven aircraft but with these intruders they shot down another twenty eight. And they sent similar raids the following two nights but nowhere near as successful. They only got one or two but they never did it again. That’s one of the hair-raising ones.
CB: Why was it that they were less successful on the second raid? Were — were the gunners more alert? Or what was it? Why were they more —why were there less casualties on the second and third raids?
EM: Well, I think mainly because one — they did it for some Americans and they did it again but I think our people were a bit understanding and guessed it might happen again and we were warned. They did get one or two.
CB: Right.
EM: But it’s quite a bit of history that one.
CB: Yeah.
EM: Because one or two of theirs were shot down and one crashed into a farm near York killing the farmer and his family.
CB: What other excitements did you have?
EM: The next raid I did was to Helmstedt which was fairly hectic in the way of anti-aircraft fire but we got away with that one. Another nasty one was when I went to Dortmund and Wuppertal. Or was it? Yeah. The other night raid where it was dodgy was to a place called Witten where we got a direct hit into one of the outboard engines. The starboard engine. We were just coming into the target and it blew the engine to pieces with bits flying everywhere. As we had a full bomb load on it we were just about keeping height but we managed to attack the target and get home, nursing it a bit. We did find on the way back that the starboard inner engine had been damaged as well. So, we came back on two and a half engines if you like. But by nursing it we got back ok.
CB: When the engines were hit what was your job? Ted.
EM: Another one. We went to Recklinghausen. That was in, that was a daylight but I can tell an interesting story about this one. We couldn’t, we didn’t drop any bombs on it because we just couldn’t see a thing. But on the way back the bomb aimer was in the nose and in a space in the woods he saw some railway lines up near the Dutch border. So, thinks. We go around and have a look. So, the skipper says, ‘Oh let’s put one down there and see what happens.’ We did. We thought the earth had fallen in. Well, we didn’t know what it was. No one knew what it was. But when I was working at Westcott I had to go to Germany and I was looking at some of their rockets. I had to go to this ammunition dump near the Dutch border where they were still digging out bits and pieces then. And I was talking to one of the sergeants there. I said, ‘What happened?’ He said, ‘We had one single aircraft come over and drop one bomb and it hit a munitions train that was due to go to the Russian front.’ And he said, ‘There’s still bodies in there.’ It was enormous.
CB: Fascinating.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
EM: I — my next interesting one is Osnabruck which was to hit the rail line there. Evidently it was extremely accurate but it was a daylight and we got hit in the bomb bay with a load of shrapnel which cut our hydraulic line and we couldn’t open, couldn’t shut the bomb bay. But I saw where it was and with some of the bits of rubbish I’d picked up — namely a piece of rubber tubing and some wire. I managed to slip it over the cut and we managed to shut the bomb bay doors. When we got back I managed to get the undercarriage down but the flaps wouldn’t come down. So, we were diverted to Croft and made that ok so —
CB: What was the significance of Croft?
EM: Pardon?
CB: What was the significance of Croft?
EM: Oh Croft. Sorry. Carnaby.
CB: Carnaby. Ok.
EM: Yeah.
CB: So, what was the —
EM: The big runways and that. As a matter of fact, on one of our night trips we were diverted there because of fog. It was very thick fog. We couldn’t see a thing but they had FIDO and I can tell you landing on FIDO, it’s like, well, you came across the flames and the plane rose and you had to put the nose down. You had to dive through it. Anyway, it was quite hair raising. I think the skipper was saying a few words. There’s one [pause] and then we come to Heligoland and Wangerooge. Just about the last ones. Heligoland was a daylight. It was quite a doddle that one. But we went to Wangerooge which was on the islands. Now, that — they were really, it was a beautiful clear day and they were really letting us have it with anti-aircraft guns. And in front of us there were two Halifaxes probably about a hundred yards apart and suddenly one of these got a burst of anti-aircraft gun under one wing which floated it over right into the other one and they collided. Two got out. There’s one trip that I did which was a most spectacular I’ve seen. And that was to an oil plant. Now, this oil plant was enormous. It had a series of huge spheres all containing fuel of some description and they were all in huge lines. One after the other. And we were loaded up with a mixture of explosive and incendiaries and we went in lower than usual to make sure we got them in line and we went down each line. Dropping, you know, a skein of bombs, you know. Anyway, the spectacular. We were low enough that we saw these spheres collapse and then they opened just like a tulip and at the centre was a huge flame coming up. It was quite, you know, if it wasn’t such a destructive thing it was almost a thing of beauty. But when we came back all the paint was scorched underneath [laughs] yeah. That’s, I think most of my operation.
CB: Could you feel the heat? Could you feel the heat from that?
EM: Pardon?
CB: Could you actually feel the heat in the aeroplane?
EM: Hmmn?
CB: Could you feel the heat of the oil plant explosion?
EM: Sorry I —
CB: The heat burnt the paint. Could you feel it?
EM: Oh, I wasn’t exactly scared. I was kept too busy. Well, for instance, when I went on to the squadron. At that time I wanted to get myself a degree when I left. So therefore, I got a correspondence course and when I was in the early part, when I was flying on ops the, say up to the coast and that I used to do my homework. You know. English. Maths. You know the typical matric as it was then. It, it did me fairly well. But —
CB: So, what about the other members of the crew? What were they like? Starting with the skipper. Who was he?
EM: The wireless operator. He was a lad from Glasgow. The Gorbals actually. A bit of a rum sort and I won’t —
CB: Who was he? What was his name?
EM: Oh dear. Tom.
CB: Never mind. We’ll come back to that.
EM: No. I can’t. The skipper’s name was Bingham.
[pause]
CB: Right. A picture of the crew we’re looking at. Ok.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
EM: They — I can’t remember all their names. Our rear gunner, at that stage, was a Canadian. An ex-cowboy. How he got into that rear turret I shall never ever know. If I can put it bluntly he was built like a brick outhouse. You know.
CB: Yeah.
EM: But there’s a funny story about that if you want funny stories.
CB: Go on. Go on. Go on.
EM: On one of the raids. I can’t really put a finger to it. There was a sudden shout, ‘I’ve been hit. I’ve been hit.’ From the rear turret. So, I went down and there he was [groaning]. And the seat is a thick piece of aluminium with wood underneath. And there sticking up through it, about like that, was a piece of shrapnel. Gone right up between the cheeks. Well, anyway the funny part is the doctor gave him some ointment to rub in. Well he couldn’t reach it. So, we got the job of every night rubbing it [laughs]
CB: Amazing.
EM: Yeah. Is it stories you want?
CB: Yeah. Keep it going.
EM: Yeah. The bomb aimer. He came from Hersham. His wife was a hairdresser. I found he was — I didn’t get on well with him. The navigator. He was a Canadian. The mid-upper gunner was a bloke about my age. An ex-miner from Wakefield. We did lose one gunner. It was, he hadn’t even been on a raid. He went on a spare crew. My skipper was Flight Lieutenant Bingham. John Bingham. He’d been a training instructor out in America for a while before he came back and took over this job as, on Bomber Command. He could be a bit of a pompous so and so. You know. A real strict disciplinarian. But on the other hand, that made him a good pilot. He was a good pilot whatever anyone says. What else?
CB: So, the mid-upper gunner.
EM: Mid upper gunner. That was the lad from Wakefield.
CB: What was his name?
EM: His name was Mounty so we used to call him Lofty. And he wasn’t a big bloke [laughs] [pause] Somewhere or other — I don’t know if I’ve got their names.
CB: Well let’s come back to those later. Could you just go back a bit now? No. Sorry. How many operations did you complete in the end?
EM: I did — what was it? I did fifteen.
CB: Ok. And what stopped operations? Was it the end of the war?
EM: Pardon?
CB: What stopped you going on operations? Was it the end of the war? Or what was it?
EM: Well the reason I didn’t go for a commission — I was recommended. I went for an interview but I made a silly mistake. I told them, when they asked me what I was going to do after the war I said, ‘I want to go to university. Get a degree.’ That was it.
CB: They didn’t like that.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Right. So, you stopped flying when? When did you stop flying?
EM: Oh, it was around about September ‘45. Until then I was, we were engaged in taking all the old ammunition, bombs and that from the various airfields around and dumping them in the North Sea.
CB: Right. Where did you do that? Where? Where?
EM: Well we were stationed still at Full Sutton but we did places like Snaith and all the surrounding airfields that had got bombs. We used to, for instance, they used to put the bombs in the bomb bays of course but where it was machine gun ammunition they just piled it in the, by the back door and I used to go and kick it out. You know, open the door and out. But that was — we did quite a few of those.
CB: Ok. Now after you finished flying then on operations you dropped the bombs in the North Sea. Then what did you do?
EM: There was all sorts of jobs while I was waiting to take another course. Another business. But eventually I went back to St Athans and took a safety course. Mainly packing parachutes, safety equipment. That sort of thing. When I’d finished that I was sent to Germany. To Fassburg. Which was just outside Belsen. Which was unpleasant. It was there I managed to take the two exams I’d been working on. I got all sorts of jobs there. It was on a Maintenance Unit where we used to go around to various stations and re-pack their chutes or look at their — as well as advise them on safety equipment. And from there I was demobbed and came back to England. From there I was on leave for a while when I applied to go to a university but they said, ‘Oh you’re too late. The regulations have run out.’ So, what happens? I go back to evening class and get a job with Bayer Products as a lab assistant. At the same time, I managed to pick up on the government job I was working with and I got [pause] they took me on as a scientific assistant making chemical warfare agents.
CB: Where was that?
EM: This was up in Lancashire where I met my wife. At Sutton Oak. And then I was transferred. They moved the whole lot of us down in to Cornwall where I was in the research labs making nerve gas and such. When that closed down I came up to Westcott and became a rocket engineer on solid propellants. Working mainly, quite often, on air to air missiles like Red Top for Lightning, Sky Flash for the Tornado and working on materials for high temperatures. And that’s when I sort of became me and became retired afterwards.
CB: So how long did you work at Westcott for?
EM: Thirty five years. In fact, you might see my footprints somewhere around.
CB: Sounds interesting.
EM: Yeah. It was in solid propellant division.
CB: Right. So, did you work your way up there or what happened?
EM: Well, I ended up there as a senior scientific officer.
CB: Right.
EM: I did — I did some flight tests on a missile in a Lightning. I got taken up in a Lightning to do some tests from a valley.
CB: Oh, did you? Right.
EM: Oh, this would be — I can’t give you a date. It’s [pause] oh no, I can’t. I’d be [pause] I think I’d be almost be pulling your leg if I gave you a date.
CB: So, was this as a jolly or a practical observation you were doing? Was it an enjoyment flight or were you doing it as an observation?
EM: Oh no. it was busy. It was, they wanted, they wanted me to — they were doing some of the tests and I had to observe. Something strange was happening and they wanted me to have a look. See if I could sort it out.
CB: This is the rocket motors was it?
EM: It was the sort of thing — you see when you launch a rocket you get such a spread of strange mixture of gasses.
CB: Yeah.
EM: That as it goes out in front they go in to the air intake of the plane and they often cause a hiccup and we wanted to find out whether that was doing it. So apart from having instruments they needed someone to actually observe the instruments and see what was happening visually.
CB: Right.
EM: Yeah. It was rather funny. The pilots had a bet. Thinking I was a dumb scientist. They didn’t know I’d been on ops and they had a bet to find out whether they could make me airsick [laughs]
CB: So, you put them right in the end, did you?
EM: Oh yeah. Yeah. I was bought beer all night [laughs]
CB: How interesting. Can we go back now? Can we go back to your early training?
EM: Yeah.
CB: So, what happened when you were being trained to begin with? What did they do about training in St Athan?
EM: Oh.
CB: What was involved?
EM: Well basically you went through — for the first few weeks you were put through quite a concentrated course on aircraft engineering. Getting very close to what you were going to do. After that you took the exam. You were then selected for an aircraft. I don’t know how they did it but I’d done some time on Lancs and Halifaxes and most went on Lancasters. I was selected for Halifaxes. As you know.
CB: Yeah.
EM: I did fly once or twice in Lancasters. That was more I think by luck, by judgement. They just wanted a flight engineer, you know. To get experience. They also, the idea, I think was that if after we’d done our ops we might go on to Lancs or something. But I’m just trying — but it was really a concentrated course. In fact, I wrote it all up here.
CB: Oh good. Ok. We’ll come to that in a minute. Can we just go now — so you get to the HCU? So, in the HCU what are you doing there?
EM: Well, we still kept, how can I put it, an interest in all the engineering and kept up to date. You know. With anything new that comes on. We flew with all sorts of varying skippers and crews to get the hang of it. And then of course at the same time the skippers were looking for flight engineers and as I say that was the way it happened for me.
CB: Because normally crews had crewed up at the OTU and then added a flight engineer. But in your case, you went with several different crews.
EM: Yeah. Yeah. The lad I took over from. I don’t know whether he was glad to get away from the crew or not but he was terribly airsick. You know, it wasn’t a case of not liking it or not wanting it. He was so bad that after one flight they [hoist?] the ambulance out to him. He was actually, you know, really–
CB: What had happened to him then?
EM: Well he was so sick. You know. Terribly airsick you know. You know, he was absolutely useless once he got going and that was after, you know, just two or three flights. It steadily got worse.
CB: Did it? Yeah. So, when he was flying what did he do?
EM: Well he vomited a lot. He was very giddy and that sort of thing. As I say, this time he really collapsed. So, well they couldn’t have him. I don’t know what happened to him. Whether they had him lack of moral fibre but he just disappeared.
CB: Well, what do you think about the LMF matter?
EM: It was most unfair.
CB: Go on.
EM: It was. I mean of course you were blooming scared. It [pause] it made you work that bit harder and made you do the things properly and harder but looking back I’m sure that they were being very cruel in many cases.
CB: You say many cases. So how many people did you know about who were dealt with under LMF.
EM: I only came across really one. But he’d already done half a dozen ops and some nasty ones and had a bit of a rough time. I think that was a case that was a bit cruel because after all he had done some ops. He’d proved himself. They didn’t seem to realise this sort of thing.
CB: In what way had he proved himself on those operations would you say?
EM: Well, he, as I say he’d done a half a dozen ops. He’d done exactly what was asked of him.
CB: By whom?
EM: And it was only just [pause] well, the only other thing. He’d been married recently. Whether that? Yeah. Yeah. That might well have been the case but honestly, I wouldn’t like to judge anyone.
CB: What was the reaction of the crew to what he was doing?
EM: Well one or two of them were down on him but I can’t really be certain on that one but some, again some were with him. But it’s understandable if you had a bad time and you’ve got responsibilities at home. And there was — the thing is there was one case. On one of the night raids I was on I must admit it gave me the shivers. We were going into the target and the master bomber said, ‘Christ I’ve been hit.’ And up ahead, not far ahead, there was a little flash of flame and he’d left his mic on and he screamed all the way into the ground.
CB: Good lord.
EM: And I think that might have frightened a lot of folk too. I know it sent cold shivers up my back because you heard him screaming all the way down and suddenly there was a flash and it went quiet.
CB: But no sound from any other members of his crew.
EM: But that —I think there was always a little feeling that if you were going to go you prayed to God let it be quick.
CB: Yeah.
EM: I know that was always my feeling. It —
CB: What height were you operating? What height? How high up were you operating then?
EM: Well, often at twenty thousand. Occasionally we, like several of the raids we came down to ten. And I think the other thing that made you a bit creepy was when you were going into the target and the master bomber says, ‘Oh don’t bomb. Come down to twenty. Angels ten. Angels ten.’ And you’d have to circle right down.
CB: To get down.
EM: Going down through the bomber stream and then being in the target area for so long — that was a bit uncomfortable.
CB: Sounds a strange thing to do if everybody else is high. Why would he do that?
EM: Well quite often the target was obliterated for various reasons. And –
CB: By what?
EM: By perhaps smoke or something and the further down of course you could often see more. Or there was the other times you’d be told to circle over the target while they re-laid the markers. And you’d be over the target for two or three minutes at least.
CB: Really. Yeah.
EM: Again, something very nasty.
CB: Now, going back to in the aeroplane. What was your role? What did you do from when you got in the aeroplane to when it landed again? What were doing as the engineer?
EM: Well, basically when I first got in I’d have a check around over it. I’d start up the engines with the pilot. Then when we’d take off I’d set the, once we’d taken off I’d set the, reset the fuel tanks to — so that each engine — well let me put it this way. On take-off you had a tank for each engine. After you would take off and you were at level flight you just put one tank to two engines. The tank with the most in it. And then when you got towards the target you would then put one tank per engine. And then when you came out and you were coming back home steady you’d perhaps re-change the fuel arrangements. Perhaps fill up tanks one from another. Again put one tank per two engines. And then all that period you’d be logging what you were doing. You know. Where the fuel was going. How much fuel. Calculating it. Also, I’d be, I’d go around and inspect at regular intervals looking for things. And then the, as we were perhaps coming in towards the target we’d be dropping Window and it was my job to go and heave that out. Then the other thing of course was to go around checking regularly. I mean there was one case in the early part of a flight I went around and checked the [pause] what was happening and I found — you know the floodlight bomb.
CB: The flash.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. After the bomb, after the bombs had gone you sent the flash down.
EM: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. For the picture.
EM: The little propeller on the end was turning.
CB: Yeah.
EM: And, well, if it had gone on much further we would too. So, I got chewing gum on it and stopped it from going down. It worked out alright later but that’s the sort of thing. So much depended on you seeing it and noticing it. Flaws. Something I also did before we took off was to — when I knew we were going I used to go out to the dispersal and perhaps have a look. Go over the plane. Talk to the chiefy. Talk to the lads who were doing the repairs so that I had —well it was part of a good will mission and part of being certain that you knew that they knew the plane. That was the way it went.
[recording paused]
CB: Ok. Now, on take-off what was your role?
EM: I used to, some, on occasion I used to sit by the pilot but our bomb aimer, we took it in turns. But otherwise I just sat there and checked that the engines were operating correctly. And looking for trouble.
CB: When you came into land did you have a role there or were you in your safety seat?
EM: No. I used to just sit in my position and be there if I was wanted. There was not much I could do then except the odd time we had the — I was pumping like hell on the flaps and hydraulics trying to get them down but that’s about the only thing.
CB: Ok. And when you landed, when you eventually landed did you have to do some kind of check on the aircraft?
EM: Well, if I landed at my own airfield we’d just — the skipper and I would just chat with the chiefy. Tell him, you know, what we’d found. What had happened. But if it was to — we were sent to another airfield. Diverted. I’d speak to the ground crew. You know, give them the details and then if there was no, unless there was no one around I’d lock the controls and shut it up and then go and report to the engineering officer.
CB: So, could you describe why is it, why was it that you would lock the controls?
EM: Well.
CB: Once it was on the ground.
EM: Basically, I mean, if they weren’t locked if there was a breeze or a wind they’d flap and they’d damage. Otherwise you could be in trouble with them.
CB: As far as the ground crew were concerned what relationships did you have with them?
EM: Well with our own we had a very good one. We used to — I was in B Flight at 77 Squadron and we used to get together once a month or whenever we were free and take them for a beer and, you know, something to eat. It was fairly good relations. In fact, I can’t think of a better one.
CB: Good. And as far as debriefing was concerned. So, the aircraft is parked. You are all taken back to the intelligence officer for debriefing.
EM: Debriefing.
CB: What was your job to do there?
EM: What? Sorry?
CB: On debriefing.
EM: Yeah.
CB: What did you do?
EM: Well we just sit around with a mug of coffee. Smoking like hell. They’d just — everyone would have a little say of what we noticed or what we didn’t see. Anything strange. What had happened to us. What we’d seen on the — over the target. Anything new. Different. It was just standard report on what you’d done.
CB: How many times were you hit by enemy fire?
EM: Well, it was very rare that we didn’t come back with a hole somewhere. I believe, in ‘44 that people said, ‘Oh well you didn’t have night fighters.’ Well we did. But the flak was, I found on many occasions, was very heavy and what’s more it was pretty accurate. I’ve seen all sorts of reports but I’ve still got the feeling that on some of the more important targets it really was heavy and I can’t remember one where we didn’t come back with some hole or something there. You know, in fact there was one occasion there was a twang close to my ear and a piece of shrapnel had hit the hydraulics. The undercarriage lever. And the result was I got sprayed with hydraulic fluid before I could close it off. But that’s one problem. I must admit I stunk like heaven for weeks.
CB: Because?
EM: From the oils. Horrible smelling stuff.
CB: Yeah. Did you get attacked by fighters at any stage?
EM: Well, we, I did see some of, some of their jet fighters. There was one daylight where we saw one of their jet fighters. It came straight up through the stream. It wasn’t doing anything but it gave our gunners a wonderful bit of target practice. And it just went up and disappeared.
CB: What was that? Was that a twin engine was it? A 262. Was that a twin engine fighter? A 262.
EM: Yes. You didn’t get a good view of it that you could identify it but you could see the outline well enough and it sort of went through the stream more at an angle.
CB: And was it firing as it did it?
EM: Oh, it had fired. It didn’t hit anything.
CB: Was this in the daylight or at night? In the daylight.
EM: Daylight.
CB: Right. Ok.
EM: You know it was a clear day. You could see it easily.
CB: Yeah. Now –
[phone ringing]
CB: Ah. Changing the subject slightly. What about, hang on. What about Scarecrows? Did you get any of those and what did you know about them?
EM: Well, there were several discussions about that. I thought I saw one and I mentioned it. And they said, ‘No. Can’t.’
CB: Who did you mention that to? The debriefing or to the pilot?
EM: Well, I mentioned it to the pilot and I checked up at debriefing. And again, they said, ‘Oh. No.’
CB: What did you understand a Scarecrow was?
EM: Well, the way it was put to me and it’s why I thought it was one that it looked like a dummy aeroplane going down. But still today when I try to remember I’m not sure myself.
CB: So how did you identify what you thought was a Scarecrow? What did you see?
EM: Well, virtually it looked like a splash of flame and bits coming down from it, you know. It looked —
CB: So —
EM: But having seen planes in daylight being hit and going down. I mean, for instance there was one occasion where we were flying along and there was again a plane — say a hundred yards, two hundred yards away and it was surrounded by a massive shrapnel burst. Flak bursts. And the next minute he seemed to fold up and go down. Now, thinking back, I can’t be sure that that Scarecrow would look anything like.
CB: Right. So that was effectively because they bracketed.
EM: Yeah.
CB: So, what did you understand the term Scarecrow meant?
EM: Well I always got the feeling that the name itself described it. In other words, it was something they put up to make us think there were more being shot down then there was.
CB: Right. Did you ever find out what it really was? Ok. So –
EM: I’m curious if anyone knows.
CB: Right. So, the night fighters. A number of the night fighters were fitted with upward firing cannon. So, they would trace, they would follow the bomber having identified the one they wanted to track underneath from behind and then fire thirty millimetre or twenty millimetre cannon into the fuel tanks.
EM: Yeah, the musik.
CB: Schrage music.
EM: Yeah. Well there was an interesting thing about that too. On our squadron they cut the H2S blister in half. They removed the back half and inside the other shell they put a plank of wood and various other attachments and put a .5 Browning in. The gunner was held in by something like a climbing harness and a huge bungee that went to the back. I know this well because I was sat there and in fact on one raid I sat in it most of the way when I wasn’t pilot or flight engineering. And it was most cold and unpleasant.
CB: And the idea of that was to counter the night fighter.
EM: Yeah. But it didn’t last for long. They were — when, they certainly didn’t have them on the Mark 6 and the aircraft that did have them were [pause] well — put out to graze. They were [pause] they disappeared off the site. You know. I think that occasion was the last I saw of them.
CB: Right. Because it didn’t work? Or why?
EM: Oh, it worked because I believe there were a couple of blokes earlier in ‘45 ‘44 had used them and they did work. They — but I must admit I felt uncovered, uncomfortable when I was told I might have to sit there.
CB: ‘Cause the other gunners were busy as well.
EM: Pardon?
CB: The other gunners were busy.
EM: Oh yeah.
CB: So, they couldn’t sit there.
EM: Oh yes. Yes. We did, on — oh it was used again once but this time they put a proper gunner in there. Thank God. Talking of — there weren’t many fighter attacks in ’45 but I think there were the odd ones because I did remember seeing in the dark, way up there, one or two sights. It looked like fighters attacking but it was only once or twice at the most I saw that.
CB: What about corkscrews? Did you do many corkscrews? Did you do many corkscrews?
EM: Oh yeah. Yeah. When we would do – met the, well, the intruders we were corkscrewing all the way across Yorkshire.
CB: At low level.
EM: Yeah. Yeah. I was stood there. That was quite, yeah. Not long ago I was up in Yorkshire and I met the, I was introduced to the Lord Mayor of the County and I told him about this and I said, ‘Well they haven’t sent me the bill yet.’ He said, ‘Oh they will do.’ [laughs]
CB: Just changing to the crew really now because we’ve covered a lot of things. Thank you. What was the relationship with the crew? How did the crew get on together?
EM: A bit mixed. The Canadians got on well together. The one bloke I felt was a bit of a sore thumb was the bomb aimer. I think he thought he was a bit something different. I didn’t define. We got on. We did the job together. We did what we could together and we worked together. But the blokes I rather liked were the Canadians, the mid upper gunner and the wireless operator. In fact, the wireless operator — I visited him at his home on one occasion. But it was a very, it was friendly but occasionally remote. It wasn’t the sort of crew you would have, that people would always go on about on the radio. We tended to be a bit separate.
CB: Was it a mixture of commissioned and NCOs or all NCOs?
EM: Well the bomb aimer got a commission but the rest of us —oh the Canadian navigator —he was a flying officer. The skipper was a flight lieutenant. Later becoming a squadron leader. The bomb aimer became a pilot officer and he let us know. He was that sort of bloke, you know. But we all got on well as I say doing the job. Doing the job we was there.
CB: But not socially. Socially was different.
EM: Yeah. Outside we used to have an occasional drink together and, in the mess, we used to be quite friendly. And we were in the same nissen hut. So, it was good will. There was no bad.
CB: Right.
EM: Particularly when we had to deal with the rear gunner’s rear end.
CB: Right.
EM: But oh no it was [pause] you couldn’t have wished to have been worse. They weren’t, there was nothing wrong with them. It was just that I don’t think we gelled, you know, together that well. We were good friends but after that no.
CB: It wasn’t really a family.
EM: No.
CB: Which so many crews were.
EM: Pardon?
CB: Many crews were families. They were families of people weren’t they?
EM: No. There was no sort of family feeling.
CB: No.
EM: It was just friends.
CB: And did you –
EM: It was a team doing a job.
CB: Yeah. Did you socialise at all with the ground crew? Did you socialise at all with the ground crew?
EM: Well, nothing serious. I think the wireless operator was the only one. We went out with young ladies together. And he’d pinch mine more often. But he was alright. As I say I met his family and I got, had a very good weekend with them. I think he was the closest I got.
CB: So, was it a difficult situation to leave the RAF or did it not matter?
EM: Well —
CB: Or did you look forward to it?
EM: I didn’t really want to join the RAF. I had my own ambitions as to what I wanted to do after the war which was to go into research science. And I think that was the main thing.
CB: Why did you join the RAF in the first place rather than the navy or the army?
EM: Well, my dad had been in the First World War. Started out as — in the artillery. From there he graduated to observer in balloons. From there he graduated as an observer in RE8s. And towards the end of the war they selected him as a pilot and he ended, he ended up on the last day of the war sitting in the cockpit of an SE5.
CB: Oh. Did he?
EM: But having said that I’ve always been interested in flying. Whether it was model aeroplanes. And in fact, behind our house in Worthing there was a big field and Alan Cobham used to have his Flying Circus there. And occasionally I’d nip over there and join them and run errands for them. For the, for the treat they used to give me a flight in an Avro Tutor or something. Or one of their old planes. Occasionally they let me tighten up a nut and bolt [laughs] [unclear]. So, what else could I do? I mean it had to be. Apart from that I didn’t fancy marching all over the place. If I was going to do it I was going to do it in luxury. If you call it that.
CB: When [pause] when you were on operations how did you feel about what you were doing?
EM: Well, something else. When we were in South Norwood it was in the Blitz and we got bombed more times than enough because we, where we were living there was Norwood Junction right behind and there was anti-aircraft guns going up. There were loads of bombs going down. And the result I saw all the blitz so when it came my turn I wasn’t too [pause] but on the other hand the thing that I wasn’t happy about killing folk and things like that. I felt there was a bit of a conscience there but it was — but that all changed when the things I went and saw in Germany afterwards. Like Belsen. And I thought, I think basically my feeling was — ok it’s a job that’s got to be done and if we don’t do it they’ll have us in a most unpleasant way.
CB: Ok.
EM: But —
CB: The same for all of the crew or did they feel differently? What did the rest of the crew feel?
EM: I think they were much of a muchness. It was a job that had to be done. Not a very nice job. I mean like putting down a pet dog that’s got rabies. I mean you might like the dog but it’s got to go.
CB: That’s been really interesting and really helpful. It’s Tuesday the 13th of October. And thank you very much Ted.
EM: Oh well I hope it’s been interesting.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Edward Harry Matthews
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-10-13
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMatthewsEH151013
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:19:57 audio recording
Description
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With an interest in flying after experiencing Alan Cobham’s Flying Circus, Ted volunteered for aircrew. He went to the Air Crew Reception Centre at St John’s Wood, followed by Newquay on the Initial Training Wing. Ted proceeded to RAF Locking for an introduction to aircraft engineering. He did a more concentrated course at RAF St Athan and flew Oxfords and Tiger Moths. Ted went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall. He replaced a flight engineer in another crew and joined 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton, flying Halifaxes.
Ted carried out 15 operations. The first two were daylight ones to Mainz and Cologne. The third was a night operation to Kamen on the Ruhr and they encountered an intruder JU188 aircraft when landing, as part of the German Operation Gisela. Other operations included Helmstedt with anti-aircraft fire; Dortmund; Wuppertal; Witten where they were hit on the starboard engine; Recklinghausen where bombs dropped on a munitions train instead of their target; in Osnabrück they were hit in the bomb bay by shrapnel; Heligoland and Wangerooge saw two Halifaxes collide mid-air. Ted describes the spectacle of lines of fuel on fire in an oil plant.
Ted discusses in detail his role as a flight engineer.
Ted stopped flying in September 1945. He dropped old ammunition and bombs in the North Sea and did a safety course at RAF St Athan. He was sent to a maintenance unit in Faßberg, near Belsen, and was demobilised. He became a government Senior Scientific Officer.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
England--Somerset
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Soltau
Germany--Helgoland
Germany--Helmstedt
Germany--Kamen
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Germany--Osnabrück
Germany--Recklinghausen (Münster)
Germany--Wangerooge Island
Germany--Witten
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945-09
77 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Helgoland (18 April 1945)
fear
FIDO
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Ju 88
Master Bomber
mid-air collision
military service conditions
mine laying
Oxford
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Locking
RAF Riccall
RAF St Athan
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/607/8876/AMaywoodRM151109.2.mp3
773cbbdec73ec1fb4e55919303593c37
Dublin Core
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Title
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Maywood, Dick
Richard M Maywood
R M Maywood
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Maywood, RM
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Richard 'Dick' Maywood (1923 -2016, 1623169 Royal Air Force), his log book and a certificate. He flew operations as a navigator with 608 and 692 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: This was the, this was the interview with Mr Richard ‘Dick’ Maywood at xxxx and he was a Mosquito Pathfinder navigator.
[Recording resumes]
RM: Above the main bomber stream. Twenty eight thousand. We carried one cookie.
CB: Four thousand pounder.
RM: Four thousand pounder.
CB: Yeah.
RM: And we had the Mosquitoes with the bulged belly. Now a lot of those — that was the B16. A lot of those appeared in the film, “633 Squadron.” Now, that film was the biggest load of bullshit you ever came across. It was so ridiculous that a lot of people would believe it. The bombs which they showed being loaded up on these, for the operation, were cookies. The four thousand pounder bombs that we carried with the peculiar tail fin added and they were supposed to drop these bombs so that they hit the base of the rock and bring it down. Now, with the four thousand pounder we were told safety height above one of those is five thousand feet or more. They wouldn’t have been more than five hundred feet away from that rock. So, the best part of that film as I was concerned was the theme song. The theme music.
CB: Yes. Exciting.
RM: Which I intend to have played at the end of my funeral service.
CB: Oh right.
RM: Because I’m gone.
CB: Yeah.
RM: The other Mosquito film they made. “Mosquito Squadron.” Again. That was largely, sort of, bull but there was one interesting point there which is true and that is the point where they had Mosquitoes practicing dropping bombs or lobbing bombs in to tunnels and that actually did occur. And one of the Polish squadrons. I think it was 305 was involved in that but other than that away we go. The Amiens raid which was a true one.
CB: Pickard. Yeah.
RM: That formed the basis of Mosquito squadrons attack. So, in actual fact “Mosquito Squadron” in spite of the American CO and all that sort of nonsense did contain certain aspects which were very true. Curiously enough, as I say, most of the light night striking force operations were either nuisance raids to divert fighter aircraft from the main bomber stream and were raids in their own right or they were on the same targets but about a mile higher than the main stream. So, some of them, the runs, were particularly with Berlin. They used to call that the Milk Run.
CB: Yeah.
RM: Yeah.
CB: So how did that work?
RM: In exactly the same way as an ordinary raid would be set out. You’d be given the route. You’d plot the route. And you’d be given the Met winds which the weather people had found and were vital because A — you needed it for navigation in the days of steam navigation. And you also needed it as the only setting to be put on the Mark 14 bomb sight. And that was the gyroscopically controlled one. I can tell you a story about that too. I shared a bombing range with a B17 on one occasion at Boxmoor near Oxford. We’re at twenty five thousand feet. We had six practice bombs. It was a NFT. And I was sharing a range with a B17 and he could not have been more than fifteen thousand feet. With the bomb and the pickle barrel from thirty thousand feet. Norden bomb sight. His bombing error was twice mine. I was knocking up around about sixty, seventy yards and he was around about the, probably a hundred and twenty, hundred and fifty yards and as I say he was probably ten thousand feet below me. Two miles below me. So much for the American bomb sight. And that Bomb sight the bombardier had to take it out of the aircraft every time he flew and put it back in to safe keeping and then draw it out because they didn’t want the Germans to get it. But what they’d overlooked was the fact that the Germans had hacked down quite a lot of B17s and knew everything about the bombsight. But there we go. I’m afraid that you are probably going to think that I am very biased against the Americans. I’m very biased against the American navy. And I’m not particularly, sort of enthusiastic about their air force either. Any air force which bombed in daylight, in formation. Well, at a steady height. Steady speed. Nearest approach to suicide you could get. The B17 crews, I must admit, were very very brave people. Very brave people. But in those days as I say we hadn’t got much reference for them because most of the big B17 stations were around here. in this area. Northamptonshire.
CB: Near Peterborough.
RM: Peterborough and that area.
CB: Yeah.
CB: And all that area. And George, my pilot, if we were coming off a night flying test he’d look around for one of these and he’d formate on a B17 and sort of drop his undercarriage and put the flaps down and sort of follow on its wingtips and then when he’d had enough of that he’d go clean. Both engines. And then he’d fly in a circle around them as they went along because I mean we could do a hundred and ninety knots quite comfortably on one engine. But to give you some idea. On one occasion, on an authorised low flying exercise an American B, a P47, the Mustang — formated on us. “Air Police” written along it’s side and he was going like this. More or less telling us to get up. I gave him the washout sign. I said to George my pilot, I said, ‘We’ve got a visitor.’ ‘What’s that?’ He looked, ‘Oh him,’ he said. He said, ‘Let’s teach him a lesson.’ And he just took both engines through the gate and we left.
CB: Left him standing.
RM: Within a minute he was a dot. He could have beaten us at low level because of course our B16s that we were flying at that time, although it’s low level, really didn’t get into their own until we were at twenty one thousand feet or over. But going through the gate gave us that little bit extra. And that was it. Because we used to — from Downham Market we exited down between the old and new Bedford Levels right down to Royston. That was our route out. Incidentally, after VE day they said, ‘You’re coming off high level bombing. You’re going low level daylight in the far east and map reading.’ Now, that is the equivalent of going off an HGV on to formula one practically. Now, a lot of people don’t believe this but I can assure you, hand on heart, that it’s true. We were told, ‘Now, when you go to low level that is fifteen to twenty five feet.’ And we did it. Fortunately, my pilot, when he was an instructor in Canada at Estevan on Oxfords had four instances of collecting rubbish from the undercarriage of his Oxfords. Low level. Unauthorised. But he was very very good at it [laughs] and we had quite an amusing incident to do with that but if we go back to the light night striking force. As I say that was part of 8 Group which was given the permission to put eight, in brackets, PFF force. Group rather. Pathfinder force. Because each station in 8 Group had one Mosquito which was mainly light night striking force and one squadron of Lancs which were again associated with the Pathfinder force and they were equipped with H2S which gave you the map. And of course H2S was the result of quite a lot of Lancs being shot down because the night fighters, German night fighters could tune in. Home in on them and bang. And then again, the Germans had a very nasty idea called Schrage Musik which you’ve probably heard of. The upward firing guns. So, they’d home in underneath an unsuspecting Lanc and bang. That was it. But once they got wind of this then they put the Mosquito night fighters in with the bombers and that did reduce the losses a little because it upset the Germans. Now, is there any aspect that I could fill you in on? Because I don’t exactly know what you’re after you see.
CB: That’s alright. So, what I’d like to suggest is that we start with your earliest recollections of your life. What you did at school? Where you were born? And then after school what did you do?
RM: Yeah.
CB: And how did you come to join the RAF?
RM: Yeah.
CB: I’m just going to stop for a mo.
RM: Yeah.
[recording paused]
CB: Hang on. Let me just get it started again. So now we’re restarting with the early days, Dick.
RM: Yeah.
CB: So, where you were you born and —
RM: I was born —
CB: Just up the road.
RM: Just around the corner.
CB: In Peterborough.
RM: In Peterborough yes. I went to the local school which is about a hundred and fifty yards around the corner from here as an infant. From five to seven. They had the junior section then from seven to eleven and when I was eleven I got a scholarship to the local grammar school which was called Deacon’s School. Peterborough had two grammar schools. Deacon’s and King’s, of which, of course, there was very considerable a rivalry between the two [laughs] as you can imagine. Now, with King’s School it didn’t matter so much about passing the school cert exam. Eleven plus equal. With King’s School you had to be able to sing because that was the Cathedral School. And curiously enough at the service yesterday at the Peterborough Cathedral I remarked on the fact that we must be getting old because the choirboys looked smaller and smaller. I was actually in school to hear war declared. I’d reached the sixth form. And we were actually called in during the holiday to the sixth form to deal with the evacuees from London. Now they, that started on a Friday. The evacuees came into the school and we were there to separate these various children and give them to the groups to which they’d been allocated so that they could be taken to their future homes. And about half past ten, quarter to eleven on the Sunday morning the headmaster came around and said, ‘Forget about the evacuees. All of you assemble in the music room because Neville Chamberlain is going to speak to the nation at 11 o’clock.’ So, we went in there and we heard the war declared and that was that. Now, I came to the conclusion then that instead of staying on to go, say to do my A levels and go to university if that would be interrupted by war service. Now, I’d always been, from the age of about nine when I’d got a book called the Boy’s Book of Aircraft for a Christmas present I’d always been interested in the flying aspect. Biggles and all that sort of thing. And I developed quite an interest in flying from the reading point of view and from the model aircraft point of view. And I thought well why not volunteer for the air force. So as soon as I was eighteen, that was in 1941, I nipped up to Cambridge because at eighteen if I volunteered for the air force I wouldn’t be called up for the army or the navy. And so, I volunteered. I was accepted for further investigation. That was in 1941 and then in December ‘41 was called to Cardington where I had my aircrew medicals and aptitude tests and was accepted as future aircrew. And much to my annoyance, that was December ’41, I was actually called up to Lord’s Cricket Ground August bank holiday Monday 1942. I hopped off one foot on to the other. I thought that was a dirty trick [laughs] Anyway, we were assailed with needles and vaccinations and boots to be cleaned and uniforms. Paraded up and down Earl’s Court and so on and went to the zoo for meals. From there I eventually went to Number 6 ITW at Aberystwyth. I’d only been there about six weeks on a ten weeks course when I had to report sick on the Tuesday. I’d got a swollen throat and what not. Sore throat. Went to the sick quarters and the MO there sort of looked, ‘Ah, Mist Expect three times a day for three days. Come again on Friday.’ Well, this Mist Expect was a brown lotion. Yuck. Which was very evil tasting. Anyway, by the Friday morning I more or less managed to crawl up to the sick quarters and they said, ‘Strange. We’ll have you upstairs under observation.’ And that was on the Friday. On the Sunday morning I developed the classic male symptoms of mumps. Now, as soon as they realised this they whipped me off to the local isolation hospital called Tanybwlch where I was the only patient and I distinctly remember it. There were five Nurse Williams’ and one Nurse Prodigan there. I lived like a lord but the interesting thing was that I was there for a week and at the end of the week they said, ‘Right. You’ll be going home Monday. Fourteen days sick leave.’ Now, before the Monday, on the Friday, about twelve of the people who were in my flight at ITW reported in to Tanybwlch with mumps. And what they were going to do to me was nobody’s business until I mentioned fourteen days sick leave. I was the flavour of the month after that. Anyway, from there, after a week, a few weeks due to bad weather I finished up as Desford Leicester, grading school where I did my twelve hours on Tigers. Selected for further pilot training. The interesting thing was there the instructor that I had was a Sergeant Collinson. He was an ex-bank manager and three weeks after I’d finished and gone to Heaton Park word filtered through that he’d had a pupil who’d frozen on the controls and killed them both. And a nicer bloke you couldn’t have wished for. He was the exact opposite to the American instructor which I had at Grosse Ile. Anyway, as I say, we did this grading school and then from there we went to Heaton Park which of course was the centre from which all aircrew to Canada, America — the USA, South Africa were sent simply because there was no room in the sky to have UT pilots barging about and getting in the way even though the Tigers were painted yellow. But, and as I say from there I volunteered for the Flying Boat course which was rather ill fated. I did get about thirty — thirty five hours solo on Stearman N2S4s which I thought was a beautiful aircraft. It really handled superbly. The sort of one that the wing walkers are using now. Much nicer aircraft to fly then the Tiger. Had twice as much power and on Tiger if you came on the approach five miles an hour too fast you nearly floated across the airfield. You didn’t get down. With the Stearman N2S4 you came in and as soon as you got the right attitude closed the throttle, stick back and it would go down on a three pointer and stick. Much nicer. Also, had brakes which helped you to stop and manoeuvre because with the tiger they had to come out and take your wing tip.
CB: Now where was this? In the states. Where?
RM: This. Grosse Ile, Detroit.
CB: Grosse Ile.
RM: Yes. And the French Grosse Ile. And that was American navy. The only British officers that we had there were one RAF and one Royal Navy officer acting as liaison because of course not only did the RAF send pilots there but of course Fleet Air Arm. And it was the Fleet Air Arm course really. With carrier work and then Flying Boats because they had to be versatile with both but I could never understand why we were subjected to the first part of the course but it was a good thing in actual fact. But I couldn’t see it at the time. Because I couldn’t understand anybody would try landing a Catalina on a Flying Boat. It’s a ridiculous state of affairs to be. Anyway, from there, as I say, I was sent back to Canada. To Windsor, Ontario and had a re-selection board. Was re-selected as a navigator air bomber. The navigators could either be pure navigators, NavBs, NavWs nav wireless or Nav radio and in each case, it depended on the type of aircraft that they would be going on to for their training and radio mostly on fighters for instance. The day and night fighters. The —
CB: Can I just go — can I interrupt? Go back a bit? Why was it that you gave up the flying? The pilot training with the US navy.
RM: Why? I was washed off. Yes. I was washed off the course. They had a field. The main fields. Grosse Ile had several satellite airfields. Much more. And one of these was a square field on the edge of Lake Michigan and in the middle of the field was a hundred foot diameter circle. Now, it gets rather technical here because to explain it I’ve got to be technical. Imagine that there’s a line through the circle with the wind. Wind line. And this wind line when on the afternoon that I was taking my tests was at right angles to the shore of the lake. Now, this field was probably no more than four hundred yards long and the circle would be probably about eight or ninety yards in because you had to, sort of, do a touch down and off again. The afternoon, it was in August, the ambient air temperature was eighty five Fahrenheit. Now, you came down wind parallel to the wind line like a normal left hand circuit. Eight hundred feet. When your wings were opposite the circle you cut the engine and the rest was a glide. Now, you had to glide down across the wind line at between ninety and forty five degrees. Continue the left hand turn and make a right hand turn onto the wind line and in and drop. Because, of course with a lot of aircraft you’ve got no forward, fighter aircraft particularly, no forward vision. So they had to adopt this and they still do I believe. I’m not sure. Now, as soon as on the right hand turn, as soon as I crossed the shoreline I gained about fifty feet. Thermals. I’ve never done any gliding or known anything about it and I didn’t know what a thermal was. So I overshot. The next time. The second run. I came a little bit lower. I still overshot. And we had to get three out of six in the circle. The third shot. I came around and I still touched down just beyond the circle. So I knew that I’d failed but I opened up and ignored the instructor who was sitting by the side of the circle watching. Ignored his signals [laughs] I thought I will bloody well put one in and the fourth one in I actually undershot. But in order to do that my right hand wingtip on the right turn was almost in the water. It was that low. And as I say as soon as I muffed that third one I knew that I’d failed so it didn’t bother me much. Now, one difference between the RAF training aircraft and the American training aircraft was that with the Tiger Moth you had a two way Gosport system so you could talk to the pilot. With the Stearman N2S4s, both army and navy, they had one way Gosport. The pilot could talk to you but you couldn’t talk back. The other fact is that all of the instructors, army and navy instructors on pilot training in the States were usually first generation nationalised Americans. Now, they were not allowed to go to the actual warzones just in case they were spies and nasty types. So, you can imagine that these instructors had quite a bone to pick. You know. They were very bitter about being singled out for this and they took it out on us. Now, on one occasion I’d already upset my instructor. You know, before these circles landing. And if you had a high level emergency which usually occurred at two thousand feet you were supposed to glide round, selecting a field and then make this sort of approach. And we were stooging along on one exercise just before these circles and he suddenly cut the motor and said, ‘Right. High level emergency.’ And one of the satellite fields was just down there so, I gave it full left stick, full right rudder, organised a side slip and brought it right down in one go in to this field. Settled and did a three pointer. And I sat there and I thought bloody marvellous Maywood. The remarks that came over the Gosport were not printable. Definitely not printable. I had disobeyed every rule in their book. Disobeyed them. I was worthless. I was useless. He didn’t speak to me for a couple of days afterwards. He just took me up. But on the way back after the side slip he cut the visit short because we flew for an hour and a half at a time. We’d been flying for about a half an hour. He said, ‘Right. We’re going back to base.’ And he did flick rolls left right left right and obviously to try and upset me. And they had a mirror up in the centre section where they could see us and as he did these, the more he did it, you know, sort of thumbs-up which made him even worse. As I say for two days he would just take me out to the aircraft. We’d do what we had to do until this circle business and not a word was said. Now, after washing off this course, as I say, we had a re-selection board in Windsor, Ontario. It’s just across the water from Detroit and I was selected as a NavB. I had to do six months general duties work. Three months in Toronto manning depot. That was quite an interesting, mostly sweeping the floor but on one occasion. Two occasions. Two successive days. We had to, you know, two of us, another washed off pilot and myself chummed up and we were picked for guard duty in the detention barracks there. When we reported to the flight sergeant MP first thing in the morning we were handed side arms. 45 revolvers. And the SP said, ‘Now, the only thing I’m going to tell you,’ he said, ‘Is never ever let one of the prisoners get within shovel distance of you.’ Shovel distance. What’s that? He said, ‘Remember that.’ He said. ‘If they look like getting there,’ he said, ‘Shoot them because it might be the last thing you do.’ He said, ‘We won’t ask questions.’ Anyway, we went into this detention barracks and we were ushered in to a building which was about thirty feet wide. Probably ninety feet long and normal height of a shed. Say perhaps ten, twelve feet. Across the centre of the room there was a black line. Two inch black line that ran down the walls, across the floor and up the other wall. Now, you can imagine. You walk in there and you see this. At one end there was probably about fifty, sixty tonnes of small coal. The other end absolutely pristine walls and floor. Whitewashed. The prisoners had wheelbarrows and shovels and it was their job to shift this coal from one end to the other and then when they’d done that they scrubbed the floor and the walls. Whitewashed them. And then did the job again. Now, they were doing this probably for two or three months and they were, it was described as being stir happy. And this was the reason. They’d had one or two of the guards had been attacked with these shovels and had been seriously injured or killed and that was the reason why we were told. Now, we only had that for two days fortunately because we more or less stood back to back [laughs] watching each other’s backs and then back to the old sweeping routine. And that was for three months. Then from there I was sent out to a place called Goderich which is right on the borders. Western border of Ontario. That was a training station for twin-engined aircraft for Royal Canadian Air Force cadets. Spent three months there and then onto a place called Mountain View in Ontario to do the bombing and gunnery school. The flying was done on Mark 2 Ansons. You’ve probably seen pictures of those. And the gunnery was done with the Bollingbroke which was the Canadian version of the Blenheim 4. The turret. Have you ever seen the Blenheim gun turret?
Other: No.
RM: Most peculiar arrangement. Vertical column. And a beam pivoted on this vertical column. At one end of the beam is a seat. At the other end are two Browning pop guns. 303s. And handlebars. So when you — to operate the turret to elevate the guns or depress them you turn the handlebars like twist grips. And to turn the turret you steer it like a pushbike. So, if you were firing at aircraft up there your bottom was right down here and you’re looking up there. You’re not sitting in the chair and looking all over like did with the Fraser Nash and the other turrets. The locking ones. Anyway, we were quite interested because the first exercise that we did it was really a chastener. We had two hundred rounds each to fire. Now, what they did with the two Brownings — they put three hundred pounds in each with a dummy round of two hundred in each gun. So, the first person in to the turret, you flew in threes, first used the left hand gun. Two hundred rounds. Left it. The next person going in two hundred rounds from the right hand gun. And then the third one cleared both guns and a hundred from each. Now, the actual bullets — the tips were dipped in paint. So that when they went through the drogue, which was the target, you could see from the colour as to who hit and how many. The drogue was roughly in size a bit bigger say than the fuselage of a Hurricane or a Spit so you can see it was quite large. The first exercise was what was known as a beam target where the towing aircraft had towed the drogue on your beam two hundred yards distance. Steady. In other words you were firing at a static object. No lead necessary either way. And of course we just blazed away with these in short bursts and when we got down after the first exercise. This exercise. They gave us the number of hits. Now, believe it or believe it not at two hundred yards, steady target, no more than probably being on the gun boats — an extraordinarily good result was five percent hits. The average? Three percent. Which is amazing isn’t it? The reason? Vibration. The rigidity of the gun mountings of course allowed the guns to spray and this is one of the things where modern films and pre-modern films of aircraft fights where you see a nice line of holes being stitched across the fuselage — absolute bullshit. You were lucky if you get it off, peppered them. That was the gunnery and then we did sort of quarter cross overs and all that sort of thing. Mostly then with cameras attached to the guns. They took Cinefilms. They wouldn’t let us use live ammunition against [laughs] their aircraft. The bombing was done with Mark 2 Ansons. A very slow aircraft. And using the old fashioned Mark 9 bomb sight which was quite a Heath Robinson contraption really but it worked after a fashion. But it was designed to operate when aircraft were sort of doing their bombing runs at probably a hundred and twenty, a hundred and fifty miles an hour with very little relationship to the forthcoming four-engined aircraft. And for that reason they devised the Mark 14 bomb sight which was gyroscope labourised and it was a beautiful piece of work. But going back to what I was saying about the weather, aircraft and wind finding. With the Mark 14 bomb sight you had to put the wind velocity in. Feed it in manually. And the only other manual thing you did was fit the bomb type. Select the bomb type and it worked out the trajectory and everything. Not only that but with the plate glass, sight glass, you had the red cross with the sword and that was stabilised horizontally. So that it would, in actual fact, give you accurate bombing up to about ten degrees of bank. Whereas with a Mark 9 you couldn’t. You had to be absolutely spot on and running the thing accurately.
CB: Straight and level.
RM: Straight and level. Yes. So that was an advantage with it. And that was bombing and gunnery school. Then nav school, as I say, was at Charlottetown, PEI. Prince Edward Island. And it was there I had my first really narrow squeak. In training of all things. Now, the nav school at that time lasted for twenty weeks. At the end of ten weeks you got a seventy two hour pass. From the Friday night to the Sunday which you couldn’t do much about because by the time you got from Charlottetown on to the mainland it was time to come back again. Right out in the sticks there. You were in the boon docks. Anyway, because we had bad night flying weather in the first eight weeks of our course they decided that instead of us flying on the tenth week we would fly on our twelfth week and the next course — 97. Behind us. Two weeks behind us would fly in our place. Now, you can appreciate this obviously. We were, a group of us, were going into the local cinema and it was just getting dark. Nice bright moon. No wind. Not worth talking about. Beautiful night. When we came out of the cinema three hours later there was a forty five knot gale blowing. Now, I can visualise what I understood and if I was in the same position I might have made the same mistake. In fact, almost certainly would but the Met forecast for the whole of their four hours was light and variable winds. Now, a sprog navigator. They’d only done ten weeks. They were only half way through the course. You still, over there, only had radio bearings. Visual sightings. More or less. And astro compass. The old bubble sextant which I could never get on with to navigate with. And the first leg out probably — of course you see navigation in those, steam navigation the vital part was wind finding, direction of the wind because that meant that you would get to where you wanted to go to. Probably find wind— sort of ten knots. Well, that falls within the flight plan. Get on the next leg and then you suddenly find wind fifteen, twenty knots. Must be something wrong so you backtrack. Check all your doings and in the meantime still maintaining the same course. And eventually you think well the only thing to do is to go back to ten knots. So, you re-plot for ten knots. Come to the next turning point as you thought, make your turn and say ,with four legs ultimately, you’ll probably be getting, or getting readings of thirty knots, thirty five knots. Can’t be right. Must go back to flight plan. And at the end of the flight when you should have been back at Charlottetown if you’d sort of ignored the truth you were probably fifty, sixty nautical miles northeast of Charlottetown. Right over the main Gulf of St Lawrence. Well as I say when we came out of the cinema there was this forty five knot wind blowing. When we got back to the camp they said, ‘Course 96 report to briefing room first light.’ And they made sure that we were there at first light because they sent people around to get us up. And we were given a very quick course on how to conduct line square searches. And every available aircraft and staff pilot who were available flew us so that we did these searches over the Gulf looking for missing aircraft. Never did see any. I believe that just after we’d finished the course. Twenty weeks. And being on our way back that they found one empty dinghy out there. And I believe that in actual fact they found the wreckage of one on the coast of Labrador which is just across the other side. How many went missing we were never told. But I did find out from the archives of the Empire Air Training Scheme in Brandon near Winnipeg — that I think three crews were absolutely lost. But anyway, we measured that and as I say we came back to this country. We did, before they would turn us lose on anything, they said, ‘Right you’ve got your navigation brevets in Canada. From Charlottetown. Over the Maritimes. Where one road or one railway is a land mark. Now, you may find flying over Britain and the continent a bit different. So, before you do anything we’re going to give you three weeks intensive training on map reading.’ And we were actually posted to a lovely little station just outside Carlisle. I think it was called Longton, where we were piled in the back seats of Tiger Moths. They only had about eight of these Tigers with staff pilots there. So, as I say it was quite a small grass field and we did quite a lot of map reading and target spotting over the Midlands and the Lake District. And that was good fun actually. On one occasion we, I actually flew with a pilot. One of the staff pilots who was a little more daring than others and it was a very windy day and he said, ‘I fancy doing a trip. Do you want to come?’ So I said, ‘Yes.’ So, we took off and we were plotting our way around and the biggest rift that I calculated on that was fifty four degrees. And when we came over the airfield boundary at three hundred feet we actually landed ten feet inside the fence because the wind speed was virtually the approach speed of the Tiger. Yeah. That was quite interesting that was. Anyway, from there we went to AFU, Advanced Flying Unit and that was at Wigtown in Scotland. Halfway between Dumfries and Stranraer and that was on Ansons. Again, that was just generally getting used to flying over Britain. And then from AFU of course, straight on to OTU at Upper Heyford where we flew in Oxfords and we, more or less, we were [pause] our technique with Gee was a Gee fix every three minutes. DR after six. Six minutes. New course and again every three minutes. Every three minutes. And this was anything up to four hours. Which of course is the sort of navigation that we would be doing with the Mossies at night. And we also, we weren’t introduced to Loran until OTU and the snag there you see was the Gee would only be useful up to the Continent’s coast line. After that there was so much interference by the Germans. So much, what we called grass, that you couldn’t pick out the signal so we had to use LORAN which, curiously enough, they never did jam. It worked quite well and it worked out well over the Atlantic. Coastal command used it quite considerably. And as I say the last OTU trip we demolished a Mossie by going through the hedge and into trees on the way back with a single engine landing. Then, as I say, I’d only just started a tour before VE Day came. Just after VE Day the first thing we did were Cook’s Tours. We had two Mosquitos from each of the stations. 8 Group stations. Took off at one hour intervals during the day so that there was a route which went across northern Germany, the Ruhr valley then out more or less through the Danish border and back to home. And this was ostensibly to give us a picture of the damage which Bomber Command had done but if you bear in mind that these flights were every hour through daylight I reckon that the idea was a standing patrol just to tell the Germans we were still about. Now, at the risk of boring you here we were told that these Cook’s Tours would be a thousand feet. That’s a thousand feet above ground level obviously but George sort of took it upon himself to fly at a thousand feet. Now, the Ruhr valley is above sea level. About three hundred feet if I remember rightly. So, we were probably about seven hundred feet. Now, as I say the place was absolute rubble with steel structures. Just odd bits sticking up. Odd bits of concrete. Just like Hiroshima. And the Germans had bulldozed roads through this rubble so that they could get their troops. We were stooging along one of these roads. Sort of just ambling along at about a hundred and ninety knots. And we could see in the distance a chap ambling along with his stick and he heard us and he turned around. He recognised what we were and shook his stick at us. So, George said, ‘I’ll teach him a lesson.’ So, he sort of pulled up into a stalled turn and as he did he opened the bomb doors. Now on the B16 the bomb doors are big. Four thousand pound bomb size and from the front you can’t miss them. And this chappy, you could see, he sort of looked. Up went the stick and he was legging it down the road like mad, much to our amusement. Yeah. When it comes to low level flying though as I say our height was fifteen, twenty five feet. Clipping the grass almost. And on one occasion we were going across Wales, went down the valley and then up the other side. Big wide valley. Half way up this valley was a farmhouse and we were climbing up the slope and there was a woman pegging washing out. She obviously heard us and we could see her looking. Saw we were there and then she decided to look down and she could see us coming up and she legged it through this farmhouse. We could see her. And she ran out the other side as went over the top. Again, in those days our sense of humour was different to what it is now and as you probably [unclear] it was quite interesting. But fortunately for us — just after this 608 Squadron, the one we were on, was disbanded and we were posted to another 8 Group unit. 692 Squadron at Gransden Lodge which is just to the west of Cambridge and we, in actual fact, did one or two trips there and 692 was disbanded which meant that we were redundant aircrew. So we were sent first of all up to Blyton in Lincolnshire for re-selection board and I eventually finished up, although I’d opted for something different, on a flight mechanic engines course at Hereford. Credenhill. But there I learned all of the intricacies of the Merlin and the Pratt and Whitney Twin Wasp engine. And having finished that course I was posted to 254 torpedo Beaufighter Squadron at Langham in Norfolk. Langham, now, I believe is famous for its glass factory there which I think is on the old airfield where I became the flight tractor driver. And that’s what I stayed until I was demobbed. Now, they [pause] I could have opted to sign on with the air force. Not necessarily guaranteeing that I would fly as a navigator again but there was a pretty good chance. But in those days you had to do twenty one years for a pension which would have taken me from the age of nineteen when I joined up to forty. But you were too old to fly at thirty two. Now, as you probably appreciate after being grounded you don’t know what sort of job you’re going to get. General dogsbody usually. And the thought of eight years as dogsbody to get a pension didn’t appeal to me so I came out and I eventually finished up at teacher training college where I spent five years with a secondary mod trying to teach maths and science. And at the end of five years — because in the period between school and joining the air force I’d become an electrical trainee at the local power station so I’d got quite a good working knowledge of turbines, pumps and all that. Generators and so on. A good mechanical background. I managed to get a job as a lecturer in mechanical engineering at the local technical college on a one term temporary contract in 1954 and I was like old Bill in World War One. Unless you can find a better hole there’s no point in moving. And I eventually spent twenty eight years there and retired. Well, took voluntary redundancy in ‘82. And I’ve been a pensioner ever since. I think the Ministry of Education are busy making little plasticine models of me and sticking pins in because I’m quite expensive. Yeah. But that is that sad story of my life.
CB: Fascinating. Thank you very much. I suggest we have a break now.
RM: Yes.
CB: So, I’ll turn off.
[recording paused]
CB: So. Ken. We’ve just talked about Ken O’Dell being at Edith Weston near North Luffenham because he was also trained in America.
RM: Yeah. Now, if he was trained in America he wouldn’t necessarily be going to Grosse Ile because –
CB: He didn’t. No.
RM: He went under what was known as the Arnold Scheme and that would be usually around about Texas or somewhere like that. To one of the flying schools there with the American army and he would become an army pilot. Now, of course there would be some relevance there because the first part of their course would be for fighter aircraft. Fighter training. Single seat fighters. And this is probably where he went.
CB: Yes.
RM: Under the Arnold Scheme.
CB: His instructors were civilians.
RM: Yes. Yeah. And that did apply but not with the navy. The navy were all genuine navy types. For example, the chief petty officer who took charge of all the morning parades and what not — he had been in the American navy for eighteen years and he’d never seen the sea. Mind you, the Great Lakes, when it does get rough you do get thirty foot waves on it so it’s as good as the sea. And we can prove that because a group of us Fleet Air Arm and RAF types we hired one of these paddle steamers one Saturday night to go out on the lakes. You know, for an outing. This chief petty officer came with us. Now, admittedly it was a bit choppy but he spent all evening draped over the rail. Much to our delight. Much to our delight. Yes. Yes, he was not popular. The Americans for instance. The American navy have a very queer discipline which didn’t go with us. Very rigid. Whereas with the RAF you get a certain amount of latitude and humour. But not the Americans and for any minor misdemeanour the sort of punishment you got you went before the mast, you see and you were awarded this punishment. And that was known as square eating. Have you ever come across it?
Other: No.
RM: Ever heard of it?
Other: No.
CB: Never.
RM: Right. Now, at mealtimes because you were condemned to this you had to do a square eating. In other words [pause] that. That was square eating.
CB: So, lifting it up vertically and then pulling it, eating it horizontally.
RM: Yes. Horizontally. To eat.
CB: Into your mouth. With both knife and fork.
RM: Yes. Oh no. Usually with the fork because the Americans of course chop up their stuff.
CB: Of course. Yes.
RM: With a fork even. But if you did use the knife.
CB: Yeah.
RM: It had to be like. Now can you imagine anything more stupid? And that was the sort of typical sort of thing that you got. But the Americans, bless them, they weathered it so — good luck.
CB: Tell us about the accommodation. What did that they have?
RM: Oh, the accommodation was superb. These twin, these blocks that you see in the films. Two story blocks. Everything beautifully polished. Wood floors. The interesting thing is they had showers there and toilets. You had a single bed which was made up every morning. You know. Bullshit. And the interesting thing was the actual loos. Now, the loos were just like ordinary loos except there were no partitions [laughs] yeah. And we thought that strange. But they say you can get used to anything and it is so. Yeah.
CB: How many people? Were they, were you in dormitories?
RM: It was a dormitory. Yes. It would be about twenty — probably twenty four people. Twenty four cadets. Two sides. Twelves. Just like the dormitories you see on the films. The wartime films of the Americans. The American army of course were a bit more spartan than the navy. But everything was nice. The food though was good. Rather like the curate’s egg though. Good in parts. And you had very strange things like plum jelly with chopped celery in it and that would be a vegetable. Things like that. It was ingenious. Let’s put it that way. As I say, the discipline was very very good. If you heard the trumpet sound for the flag being lowered at the end of the day wherever you were and whatever you were doing you had to stand to attention, face the flag and salute whilst the trumpet blew. We did, in fact, there was one big navy battle that was conducted whilst I was there and I can’t for the life of me think what it was. I think it was Leyte Gulf but I’m not sure. On this particular occasion all flying stopped on this day. We were all assembled in one of the big hangars. All RAF. And five hundred of us all together. Fleet Air Arm types. All the officers there. The band. And the flags and banners and what not and we were given a very very stirring speech by the commanding officer on how good the American navy was and how brave they were and what a victory this had been. All this, that and the other. If you’d listened carefully at the back particularly with Royal Navy types, Fleet Air Arm types a series of raspberries. Yeah. Then having gone through all this marshall music we were all marched out again and continued. I remember that quite clearly.
CB: What time did you get up in the morning?
RM: Usually around about half six.
CB: And breakfast?
RM: Breakfast. Yes. You wandered over to the mess. That was one thing you didn’t parade for. You only paraded after breakfast. You know.
CB: Yeah. And what time did you go to breakfast?
RM: Usually around about half seven.
CB: And then you went for your parade. What time?
RM: About quarter past eight or so. From there disbursed to the actual flying field which — now this was quite interesting in actual fact. The main airfield at Grosse Ile didn’t have runways but it did have a huge circular patch of concrete about six hundred yards diameter so that you could land in any direction and you could land two or three aircraft side by side. Now, that was clear. All you had was hangars in the distance. And then beyond the hangars there was one vertical radio mast which was clearly visible. Now, that radio mast subtended a fraction of one degree from the field. So, you think nobody’s going to hit it. Wrong. Just before we got there some character flying solo. Chop. And the mast came down and hit the, fortunately the American seamen’s mess not the British mess and did grievous bodily damage to several of them. But nobody shed a tear from the British contingent for that. As you can gather I’m not terribly impressed with the Americans.
CB: Were the Americans training their people in similar numbers to yours or what was the situation?
RM: I don’t know what the navy situation was because this was the American navy base. And it was only RAF and Royal Navy.
CB: Oh was it? Training.
RM: Training.
CB: Right.
RM: Yeah. So, they must have had other bases. Probably in California and on the coast and so on. But we didn’t know anything about those and didn’t want to know anything about those.
CB: No. Tell us a bit more about these people who were first generation Americans. What sort of people were they and what was their attitude to the war?
RM: The one. My instructor and I only came across him really was a chappy who was a naturalised Dutchman with the rather curious name of Nieswander. Not spelt exactly as we’d pronounce it. N I E S W A N D E R. Now, he was, as a say, a naturalised Dutchman. First generation. And about six feet two, physique rather like a beanpole and of course like all of these other characters he had a chip on his shoulder. He wanted to be a fighter pilot. He was going to be a fighter pilot. Bugger this job sort of business. And he was, I suppose, fairly interested in teaching people to fly but you could sense and even it was expressed sort of rather obliquely to you by him that he wanted to go into the war zone but he was not allowed to.
CB: No.
RM: All of the pilots and this, of course, I think this also applied to the army pilots that they were not allowed to go into the warzone so they could either go on to training but curiously enough — transport. Cargo and all that sort of thing. And some of these cargo flights actually took them into the war zone. But they weren’t equipped with guns and what not so they couldn’t fight. Yeah.
CB: And what ranks were these people who were your instructors?
RM: Oh, practically all lieutenants. Junior grade.
CB: Right.
RM: Which would be equivalent to our POs. Pilot officers. Now, the interesting thing was there that in the RAF of course with commissioned and non-commissioned ranks you got upgrading in rank at given periods of time with aircrew and what not. Not so with the Americans. And I daresay that I was there, what, 1943. I daresay that in 1945 when the war finished he would still be a lieutenant. General. GJ. Lieutenant junior grade.
CB: And what rank were you at that time? An LAC were you?
RM: An LAC yes. Got, oh — Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, where I got y brevet. The Wings Parade there. Now that was in July. And we were all drawn up. We’d finished our training satisfactorily and I was assigned the rank of sergeant. We did get about three or four commissions straight away but mostly sergeant rank. And we were drawn up 2.30 in the afternoon on the parade ground there at Charlottetown and we were addressed by the Governor General of Prince Edward Island after we’d been given our brevets. And this gentleman to us, at that time, we estimated his age at eighty. He was old anyway. He was quite short and apparently, he was deaf. His aide de camp was an army type, lieutenant, who stood about six feet two and this Governor General was making a speech which lasted in total about fifteen minutes. And in the speech, he congratulated us on being — becoming pilots with the Royal Air Force. Went on in this vein and his aide de camp, his aid, was nudging him. Almost to tell him. You know, we could see it happening but he ploughed on and at the end of it the aide de camp had a real chat with him. Now we were standing to attention. Blazing sun.
CB: July. Yes.
RM: And by this time our tunics were turning black with perspiration. And what does the silly old bugger do? Once he’d been told that we were navigators he went through exactly the same speech and substituted the word navigators.
CB: Yes.
RM: Now, if any of us had had a gun we’d have shot him. Without any doubt. He was definitely not the flavour of the month. I had, I have never ever been so hot because of course the Canadians had the lightweight summer gear. Khaki. Like the Americans. What did we have? Blue serge. We never had any and those blue serge uniforms were quite warm. Yeah. We could have shot him quite cheerfully.
CB: Yeah.
RM: But –
CB: Now the Canadians. Excuse me. I’m going to stop a mo.
[Recording paused]
CB: So, let’s just talk about the Canadians.
RM: The Canadians except for the French Canadians in Quebec were charming people. Now, as far as the Americans are concerned — individually very charming. We had individual hospitality through their USOs where you go and have a weekend with a family and so on. Superb hospitality. But when you get them in a group you’re on a different planet. Terry Thomas had the best description of a group of Americans. Remember his –?
Other: No. I remember him but not –
RM: Described an absolute shower. Yeah. And we found that afterwards actually when my first wife and I went across to the Continent in the early 60s. On the ferry we bumped into a bunch of Americans. Loud mouthed. Uncouth. But if you separated them they were quite charming to talk to. Now, the Canadians — much more reserved but just as genuine and I made quite a few friends there except at Charlottetown. Which — there’s a joke about Charlottetown actually which was very true at that time and the joke goes like — that in summer they raise potatoes and in winter children. Now, they still had prohibition there when we were there. That would be in late ’43, early ‘44. And apparently, prohibition stopped only perhaps twenty years ago so consequently the local inhabitants made their own alcoholic drinks by filtering off brasso and stuff like that or using rubbing alcohol. And the weekend before we got there. Two of the erks off the station because there were RAF aircrew there had purloined from the stores a quart of glycol, mixed it with orange juice and two of the local popsies and these two had a beano at the weekend. On the Monday morning the two popsies were dead, one of the erks was in sick quarters blind and the other one was rather non compos mentis. And both of them by the time we got there at the next weekend were on the boat home to Britain. That’s the sort of thing they got up to. As far as I can remember with Charlottetown you had large numbers of children who did the same sort of thing as a lot of the children you see where troops are concerned, and where the Americans are concerned. You know. Chocolates. They wanted chocolates and sweets or whatever and I was not impressed. Nothing would tempt me to go back there again even though it has changed apparently. The Maritimes, the western provinces, New Brunswick and so on — very sparsely populated and very uninterested. The only thing with them is trees, more trees and even more trees with roads, odd roads going through. Nah.
CB: Now when you were flying in Canada —
RM: Yeah.
CB: Were the instructors all Canadians? Were they British? What were they?
RM: A lot of them were RAF seconded over there. What happened, say take twin engine aircraft. You get the RAF sent over there — say to Estevan. He would do his course. The few people at the top of the course, the really high flyers would be retained.
CB: The creamies.
RM: As instructors and would do a full tour. Now, this has a bearing actually on George, my pilot and 8 Group. Now, all 8 Group Mossie pilots had to have at least a thousand hours on twin engines and the twin engines were mostly of course Oxfords which handled apparently rather like a Mossie. Either that or they were tour expired Lancasters. But you didn’t get anybody who just got his wings becoming a Mosquito pilot. Now that was just 8 Group. I don’t know what happened with 5 Group or 2 Group which were the other two groups that I remember being a part of Bomber Command. And it worked. It worked quite well. There were Canadian instructors obviously. RCAF. That is, if they hadn’t been posted to Britain which they were. I mean, they were coming over. When it comes to going over to Canada and the States I travelled on the Queen Elizabeth and it was like a mill pond and of course the Lizzie and the Mary were run by the Americans. They were handed over to the Americans and based at New York. And typically from New York they would come across to Glasgow — Greenock, with a division of American troops. Eighteen to twenty thousand troops on. They would unload them. They would then load returning Americans or returning Canadians and all RAF aircrew that were going for training. Royal Navy and so on. Roughly about five thousand at a time. And they would go to Halifax. At Halifax they would discharge and pick up a Canadian division. Bring those back and then you’d have aircrew that were going to the United States on the Arnold Scheme and people like that. Returning Americans going back to New York. And that’s how they did it. Now, going over there the actual mess deck had tables for twelve diners. Twelve people. And the cooks cooked in batches of twelve and you had, each day, one person went from the table to the mess. The cooks collected a tray say, of twelve steaks. Twelve chops. Now, when I say steaks — American steaks. Not British steaks which were postage stamp sized. But these were genuine. Genuine pork chops. Sausages. Those twelve helpings came to the table. Now, we got on to the QE in Greenock at midnight. The engines were running. There was a bit of vibration there. We sailed on the first tide which was about 6 o’clock in the morning. Just breaking day. We had to go to breakfast around about 7.30 again. And of course, we collected this tray. There were only four of us on the table. The other, sorry, six of us on the table. The other six were in their bunks seasick and we hadn’t even hit the Atlantic. Anyway, we got out onto the Atlantic and it was like a mill pond. There were six the first day, six missing the second day, four missing the third day. And we ate like lords. You know, God, we thought, you know, this is marvellous. We really ate. And these steaks and that were beautiful. Couldn’t grumble at that. And on the last morning they did manage to come down for breakfast before we disembarked. But one interesting thing. Each of us was given a job. The job that I was given was to go from the main stores with one of the American seamen to actually re-store or re-stock the canteens. Chocolate and so on. Which was quite a — not a very onerous job. Over and done with in an hour and that was it. But this American seaman I was with he said, ‘Have you got any currency you want changing?’ So I said, ‘Well, you’re not allowed to bring any currency out. Only ten pounds.’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Supposing you got a bit more than that?’ He said, ‘Would you like it changed?’ He said. So I said, ‘Changed to what?’ He said, ‘Dollars. American.’ Now in 1939 the pound was worth four dollars American and four forty dollars.
CB: Canadian.
RM: To the Canadian. So you had this ten percent difference. So, I said, ‘Well, what’s your exchange rate?’ He said, ‘Well. For you it’ll be four dollars to the pound.’ So I said, ‘Well, it so happens,’ I said, ‘I’ve been a bit naughty. I’ve brought an extra tenner out. Twenty. I got twenty pounds changed into American dollars which, interestingly of course if you spent them in Canada which they were spendable — for ten dollars you’d pay the American ten dollars and get a dollar change. So, it worked out quite well. But the — I was talking to this seaman and I said, ‘We seem to be going at a fair old lick.’ I said, ‘What’s it doing?’ He said, ‘Well, I shouldn’t tell you.’ He said, ‘It’s more than my job’s worth.’ So, I said, ‘Go on. Nobody’s listening.’ He said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘We’re cruising at twenty nine knots.’ But one night I woke up. It was only about 2 o’clock in the morning and the boat, you could tell from the vibration that they’d definitely sort of upped the steam but when we went to breakfast we were back to the twenty nine knots. So, I said to this chap, I said, ‘What happened last night?’ ‘Nothing very much,’ he said. So I said, ‘Go on,’ ‘You’re pulling my leg,’ I said, ‘You were going a lot faster.’ I said, ‘What speed were you doing?’ He said, ‘Thirty four knots,’ he said, ‘There was a sub scare.’ Now, of course the two Queens were unescorted but imagine this. A six inch gun fore and aft on the bow and the stern. On the main deck — Bofors and three inch guns. On the deck above you had Oerlikon cannons.
CB: Twenty millimetre.
RM: Yeah. Twenty millimetre. And on the roof you actually had two rocket launchers. So, as far as aircraft were concerned which of course would be the main thing they would have given them a very rough time. And on the second day they tried the guns out, you know, just to make sure they were working. And they did them one side and then the other. A big rocket flare went up, parachute flare, and they all opened up on this and it was quite deafening. Except the big six inch guns. They didn’t. But everything else —
CB: How many days did it take to get over?
RM: Four days and eight hours. As I say we lived like lords. Coming back. We came back on one of the old Empress boats. It was the Empress of Japan but it had been re-named the Empress of Scotland for obviously patriotic reasons. That took six days and a half. And on that they only had two meals a day. Not three. Now, you can believe this or believe it not. Going out the canteen had run dry so there was nothing on the way back. The first morning, I forget exactly which way around it was but this was the sort of thing. We had smoked haddock for breakfast. The evening meal — wiener sausages. Then for a change wiener sausages for breakfast. Smoked haddock. And we had that for six days. There was no sweets. No fruit available. And we were not in a happy mood. And then when we got into Liverpool Bay the boat had to anchor there for twelve hours before we could dock. And we could see the shoreline. People moving about. There would be restaurants there. And there we were. Stuck. We were not a happy crew. Funnily enough when we came back we had a full customs inspection. And you were allowed two hundred cigarettes, a bottle of Scotch say, or a spirit and a bottle of wine. The chappy in front of me, customs bloke ‘cause we were all queuing up, customs said to the chap. ‘Any cigarettes?’ Expecting two hundreds. The chappy in front said, ‘Six hundred.’ The customs officer looked at him and he said, ‘Surely you mean two hundred?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘I’ve got six hundred.’ ‘Oh. Well, that’ll bloody well cost you then.’ [laughs] I mean how thick can you get? Dear. Oh, it was. I must say that in spite of our, got one, two or three near squeaks I can look back on my war service and it’s quite interesting. Very varied. And I met some jolly nice people.
CB: How many of those did you keep in contact with after the war?
RM: I kept in contact with my pilot up to a time and then I lost contact with him. The chappy that I was at the Toronto manning depot with we split up but I traced him afterwards. After we’d become civilians. And found out that he’d actually joined the Toronto Metropolitan Police. Been with them for ten years and then he’d left there and joined the Pinkertons.
CB: Right. In America.
RM: Now, I always thought that the Pinkertons was a mythical organisation and I was put severely in my place when Gordon — eventually I went over there in ‘86 and stayed with him and his wife. When I said that I thought it was mythical he said, ‘We’re international,’ he said, ‘We’re interested, more or less in industrial espionage and things like that,’ he said. ‘We’re not interested in police work.’ So, I was really put in my place there. Yeah. And my pilot. He died. Had a heart attack around about 1982 if I remember rightly going on a fishing trip from Vancouver to Nanaimo. Vancouver Island. And he died on the ferry. Had a heart attack.
CB: Was he a Canadian?
RM: No. He was a Londoner. But he had gone across to the States — to Canada. Done his pilot training, become an instructor at Estevan and while he was there he met his wife who was the daughter of a newspaper owner in Langley which is just outside Vancouver. And of course as soon as he was demobbed he shot off to Canada because he got free passage there. Free ticket back home. Yeah.
CB: I’ll stop there for a bit. Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Right. We’re now re-starting after a short break and we’re with Dick Maywood and talking now about LMF.
RM: LMF. Lack of moral fibre which was a euphemistic way of referring to cowardice. It was not unknown with, particularly Bomber Command crews that some of them lost their nerve. In fact it’s a wonder that they didn’t all lost their nerves on heavies. Anyway, if they were accused and if they did succumb to lack of moral fibre they more or less had a courts martial and were almost certainly stripped of all rank.
CB: Physically.
RM: Yes. And –
CB: In front of — sorry go on –
RM: They were also treated to so many months in the Glasshouse which was at Sheffield. And everybody knew. All their crew knew of Sheffield and what it entailed. And fortunately, from my point of view I mean flying in the Mossie was safe. I mean not like the heavies. Because the chop rate even in 1944/45 on heavies was still quite considerable. But on Mossies I think it worked out, on 8 Group Mossies something like about half a percent. But one thing that did strike me with that ‘casue in the Mossie, being wood, low thermal conductivity. Radiators between the engines and the fuselage on both sides with air bleeds. Sealed cockpits. We flew in battle dress. No gloves. But we did have the escape boots just in case we had to escape. That was it. And we had our own sidearms. In my case a .38 revolver and it was only about three years ago it that it suddenly dawned on me. Twenty five thousand feet. If we had been hit and had had to bale out we would have been dead. Lack of oxygen and cold because, I mean, the outside air temperature was around about minus sixty. Minus seventy. And apparently about thirty six seconds of that and its good night nurse. It was a good job we didn’t think about that otherwise we might have gone LMF. But no, I have the utmost sympathy because one or two of my friends I know have had a very sticky patch. One I was with yesterday he is ex-Bomber Command Lanc and he was telling a friend that on one occasion they had a twenty millimetre shell, or, no, it couldn’t have been twenty millimetre. It must have been bigger than that. Go in to the Lanc and lodge in the ironmongery and not explode. And Dennis said that they sort of fished this thing out and dropped it out. And the chap who was talking to him and said, yeah, ‘Didn’t it explode then?’ And Dennis said words to the effect, ‘You’re rather stupid. If it had exploded I wouldn’t be here.’ How silly can people get? It’s, but it’s surprising really. When it comes to the old Mossie they talk about the wooden wonder. They’ve heard of the wooded wonder vaguely. No idea what it did really. Couldn’t be very interesting because it’s made of wood. And when you consider it was the first RAF multi role combat aircraft. You had your weather versions. You had the oboe versions. You had the PR Unit versions. Night fighter units. You had the Coastal Command Banff Wing which for a time had those Tsetse Mosquitoes with the 57 millimetre gun and I know one or two of the 247 Squadron even now who flew in those. And one in particular and he said that every time one of those guns went off you lost twenty knots airspeed with the recoil. But they didn’t last long because they found that a battery of eight rockets, sixty pound rockets was a better bet than the Tsetse gun. That was known as the Banff wing. There was 235 and 247 Squadrons in the Banff Wing. Anti-shipping. You had second TAF who flew fighter bombers. That’s guns, cannons and two bombs in each and that would probably be either on interdiction, road transport, railways and what not. You had the night intruders. Now, had the war had gone on longer it would have satisfied my sense of humour to get on night intruders. Because I loved the idea of sort of just dropping an odd bomb on the runway as they were about to land or shooting the buggers down. Pardon my broken English. Shooting them down. It would have appealed to my sense of humour but no. No. But there we are.
CB: So, you talked about flying at very low level.
RM: Yes.
CB: Tell to us a little more about that. I mean we’re talking about being low indeed.
RM: Yeah.
CB: However you look at it. And what about the excitement and the danger? Or the other way around.
RM: Well excitement. Yes. Particularly when we were doing low level bombing because I’d be prone in the bomb bay looking out the window. The Mark 14 bomb sight was useless because it was a high level job. And they hadn’t got a low level bombsight so it was all done with Mark 1 eyeballs. Now we had a bombing range out at Whittlesea. Well, just the other side of Whittlesea. And flying PPL I often had a scout around there to find out where the field was and I couldn’t find it but this was a big square field with the target in the centre. Now, literally to go we were flying over trees and down again. That was, we were sort of doing. The reason for it was quite simple. We were told the lower — you were going out to the Far East. A lot of jungle. Clearings. The lower you fly the less time you’ll be a target for ground gunners. So, the closer you can get to the treetops and the ground the safer you’ll be. And as I say, fortunately George was extremely good at low flying. Quite interesting actually. If we were bombing on east west run we’d come in low level and then at the end of the run we’d do a slow climb up to about fifteen hundred feet and then do a turn, reciprocal, back down to height again and bomb in the reverse direction and when we were on that run. On the east west run. Our turn to go reciprocal was always over Peterborough Town Bridge. It was super you know. Sort of down there. Yes. Home.
CB: Now, what about navigating when you’re — because your vista is very restricted when you’re flying low. So how did you deal with the navigation in that context?
RM: That was extremely difficult because as you say your range of vision is restricted so you have to absolutely do the correct thing. You look out and you see on the map where you are. The common mistake with map reading is to look at the map and say, ‘Oh that must be it,’ Because as you are probably well aware it is in actual fact, it’s very easy to do that. To convince yourself but I’ve been ferried over the last two or three years on what was known as Project Propeller. And I have, I’ve had a variety of pilots and I’ve flown as passenger with them and quite interestingly I am deadly against wind — so called wind turbines. And I cannot convince the BBC or the papers just what a waste of money they are. But these wind farms shown on air maps are extremely accurate.
CB: Are they?
RM: And they make bloody good landmarks because they actually show the arrangement of them.
CB: Oh right.
RM: So, you can see an arrangement and you can look at the map. Well we must be there. But of course in those days we didn’t. And again, you see, over the jungle as far as I can make out fortunately we were three weeks from going out to the east with the B35s.
CB: Oh.
RM: Which was the later version of the B16. We were within three weeks and VJ day came. Now I cannot stand hot humid weather. Whether it’s a throwback to the Wings Parade with the Governor General or not I do not know but I just cannot stand it and the thought of going out there. I would have been a grease spot.
CB: Yeah.
RM: A grease spot. Yeah.
CB: Just picking up on the navigation.
RM: But it would be with maps.
CB: Yes but —
RM: And dead reckoning.
CB: Yes. Well, I was going to say you use IPs. identification points. Would you put more of those in?
RM: Oh yes. You’d put them on the map because you’d probably, you’d be looking for them on the course. And as I say you take the ground on to the map not the map to the ground. Yeah.
CB: Now, going back to what you were talking about before we started taping you talked about the three mishaps that you had. So, what were they?
RM: Right. The first one was at Navigation School at Charlottetown and that was the fact that due to bad weather we missed the bad weather which was not forecast for the people who flew in our place. So, they got lost and I’m pretty sure that if we had flown on that night and we’d been given that Met forecast — winds light and variable which would take as zero for navigation purposes. It might have been a case of there but by the God go.
CB: Yes. You might also have vanished.
RM: Yes. Yes.
CB: Yeah. In the Great Lake.
RM: No. The Gulf of St Lawrence.
CB: Oh, in the Gulf of St Lawrence sorry. Ok. Next one.
RM: That was the first one.
CB: Ok.
RM: Then at OTU on the return trip from France where we had to land on one engine. They put us on the shortest runway with no wind and of course we vanished through the hedge with rather dire consequences to the Mossie. But — and then the third narrow squeak we had was of course the first time we took off with a four thousand pound live bomb and we got off ten knots slower than we should have done.
CB: Now, the Mossie could take four thousand pounds.
RM: Yes.
CB: But it was just in this particular case. What happened?
RM: Well, we, we — it took us longer to maintain, to achieve height than it should have done. Let’s put it that way. There was considerable chance that if the engines had even stuttered under those conditions on take-off we would have wiped out half of Downham Market.
CB: Was it because of the wind? You took off with the wind? Or what was it that caused it?
RM: Oh, we always took off in to wind.
CB: I know but in this particular case why was it?
RM: George didn’t say very much but I think the engines were not producing as much as he expected or the flaps were not right or something like that but I was too busy then actually during take-off. Getting all the charts ready and getting ready to —
CB: Where were you going that day?
RM: We were going to a place called Eggbeck which was one of the satellite airfields for Kiel. The Kiel Canal in Denmark. And it must have been the name of an airfield because I’ve looked and I’ve actually been in that area. Motored in that area for quite some distance and never found a place called Eggbeck. But it must have been one of the fields which was known as that. Yeah. And that was the one and only.
CB: Right.
RM: I’m afraid. Much to my annoyance. I was really savage when VE day came along, you know.
CB: Yeah. I imagine.
RM: I wanted to get my teeth into the Germans. But these things happen. But as I say afterwards we did the Cook’s Tour. We did quite a few what were known as Bullseyes. Have you come across those?
CB: Yes. Would you like to describe that?
RM: Yeah. Bullseyes were exactly the same conditions you would fly an actual operation. The only difference was at the target area e didn’t drop a bomb. We took a photograph to prove that we were there and we got there on time. Now, to give you an idea of the difference because as I say we had the Lancaster squadron. 635 Squadron at Downham Market and on bullseyes we both did the same route. Now, the Lancaster chaps would go in for their evening meal, would go to briefing and would be taking off as we were getting ready to go to the mess for our evening meal. Our evening meal, briefing, take off. Fly the same route. Be on target at the same time. On the way back we would land, be debriefed and would be having our breakfast when the Lancs were coming in. So two hour difference. Solely due to speed. But here I can give you something which is even more interesting. The American B17, the Flying Fortress. Nine crew. Fourteen guns. Four engines. Bomb load to Berlin four thousand pounds exactly. Out and return nine hours. Now, our Mossies on 608 Squadron, 692 and the other ones on the, what we called the Milk Run. The Berlin run. Out and return time four and a half hours. Now, admittedly with the American the B17s there was time taken up getting into formation and breaking formation on the way back but a lot of people don’t realise with the Americans in daylight, they couldn’t fly at night. They couldn’t navigate. They didn’t know how. They flew in daylight. Formation. Now, they carried a master navigator and a master bomber and I think usually two deputies just in case. They’re in formation. When the lead aircraft dropped his bombs they all dropped theirs. So, what they were doing in actual fact was carpet bombing. Admittedly they’d blanket the target. They would hit the target but that would be covering an area. Now, of course Bomber Command was specific on target markers. You bombed a target and all of the aircraft bombed that target. Not just one or two. So, as I say the American B17 crews were very brave. Much braver than I’d be, I think, under those circumstances to fly in daylight, level thirty thousand feet. Fighter fodder. No doubt. Yeah. Whereas the old Mossie. You couldn’t describe [pause] they did, the Germans did do us an honour. I think it was the Henschel 219 but I’m not sure where it was designed as a two engine night fighter specifically to counter Mosquitoes.
CB: Was it really?
RM: And that was the biggest compliment they could pay us. Then of course the jets came along and that was a different matter. They could sort of commit mayhem. But the interesting thing was that on the raid that we were doing on Eggbeck we were going out and near the target one of the aircraft called out, ‘Snappers,’ and that was the code name for the fact that 262s were about.
CB: Right.
RM: But nobody got lost that night. So –
CB: Messerschmitt 262 jets.
RM: Yeah.
CB: Yes.
RM: I mean they were serious opponents those. The 30 millimetre cannon for a start. I mean you don’t argue with those. Yeah.
CB: What was your operating speed?
RM: Our normal cruising airspeed out was around about two hundred and thirty knots. But that was indicated air speed. I mean at twenty five thousand feet the true airspeed would probably be somewhere in the region of three hundred knots which was covering the ground fairly well. If we went flat out the highest ground speed that I ever recorded was four hundred and ten miles an hours. And that was without trying.
CB: Now, what was the pattern of your operation? Because you were much faster than the Lancasters so you took off late but you had to be there first so how did you do that?
RM: Well the oboe aircraft had to be first. And then the Mosquitoes that carried additional marker bombs would be on target more or less at the same time and they would be listening to the oboe.
CB: Which was the master bomber.
RM: Or the ground. Master bomber. Advising them where to drop their new flares.
CB: Right.
RM: Whether they’d drop them short, long, east or west and so on to correct the error. And then of course by this time the main force Lancs and Mossies would be coming up on the scene but in a lot of cases with 8 Group the light night striking force actually operated on different targets. These targets were designed to be diversionary to lure night fighters away so that they didn’t know whether to go for the Lancs or us and in that case you’d probably get about anything from forty to fifty Mossies attacking quite a valuable target. Yeah.
CB: Now, you talked about twenty five thousand feet. Was that your normal operating height?
RM: Yes. That was normal.
CB: Or did it vary much?
RM: It didn’t vary much. Anything from twenty five — twenty eight thousand. The oboe Mossies, of course, they went up to thirty seven thousand feet.
CB: Oh did they. Right.
RM: Because of course the radio waves were line of sight and at that height they could just get the Ruhr. And of course, the Ruhr was the main complex of the German war industry and after, in ’43 onwards it was systematically demolished with oboe and and with precision bombing. Yeah. As I say the whole area was completely derelict. There was nothing there.
CB: What was your most abiding memory of your experience in the war?
RM: Well, it may sound silly to you but the thing which stuck in my throat more than anything was catching mumps. I mean it was so demeaning. Orchitis. Which, of course is the classic symptoms of that. It’s not pretty and it’s painful and to catch that at nineteen years of age. It was a chance complaint and that, that really stuck with me more than anything. Yes. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles.
CB: Yes.
RM: I suppose in a way what with that and the fact that I got washed off pilots case and the fact we hit bad weather at Nav School. With the time I lost. If it hadn’t been for that I might not be here.
CB: But you might have done all sorts of other things. Operationally.
RM: I might have finished up on heavies with a much heavier chop rate. Yeah.
CB: Just going back to the American training experience. In essence it was to train for flying boats so that –
RM: Yes.
CB: What aircraft did they have in that area working on the lake?
RM: They didn’t. The Grosse Ile was the aircraft carrier part of the navy.
CB: Ah right.
RM: And once they’d completed that you then went down to Pensacola.
CB: Right.
RM: And the Gulf of Florida and converted on to Catalinas.
CB: Right.
RM: Now the interesting thing is that for many years RAF — the RAF Museum at Cosford encapsulated my wartime flying experience very very neatly. They had Canso, which was a Canadian built Catalina because it had a retractable undercarriage whereas the Catalina didn’t. And alongside it was a Mossie B35 which, to all intents and purposes, apart from an astro dome was the same, exactly the same as our B16s. And these were side by side. Now, nobody knew about me there so it was purely chance but I gather now that last year that they actually split them up into two different hangars. Which is a shame.
CB: Changing the subject a bit —
RM: Yes.
CB: A Mosquito is very cramped inside. Or is it? For the navigator? And how did you operate?
RM: Well, I was a lot slimmer than I am now. The amount of room we had. My seat was about that wide. In front of me we had a dashboard with a dropdown table for the maps and what not on. We were actually sitting on the main spar and the pilot’s seat was just in front of the main spar. Now, just here —
CB: In front of you.
RM: In front of me and to the left hand side would be the console with the undercarriage and flaps.
CB: Throttles.
RM: And throttles. For the pilot. Right handed. In front of me, underneath the dashboard would be the opening which I would go through to get into the bomb bay.
CB: Go in legs first.
RM: No. Head first.
CB: Right.
RM: Yeah. Because you had to be facing the front. Yeah. You could only go in head first. There was no room to do a hundred and eighty.
CB: Yeah.
RM: It’s very cosy. The pilot –he had roughly the same amount of room and all the gubbins in front of him and to his left. We were both slimmer and we could both get in. Now, the B, the bomber versions — you went in underneath. It had a floor entry. Like the prototype in South Mimms Museum. The fighter bomber versions had a side exit or entry and that was just aft of the propellers. About nine to twelve inches behind the propellers and in the event of getting out you had to go in. Go out head first facing the rear to make sure you didn’t get mixed up and come out as mincemeat. Yeah. They had a ladder which stowed in the aircraft that you climbed up. You went in facing backwards and then turned around. The pilot went in first, of course to get into his seat. Now, he would have a seat type parachute. We had just the harness and we had the parachute stowed down by the right hand side so that if we had to get out we could just pick it up, clip it on and out.
CB: So, if you had to get out are you going to go out through the canopy or through the floor?
RM: Oh you didn’t go out through the canopy except as we did when we crash landed at [unclear] when it was stationary. If you went out through the canopy you had a jolly good chance of being chopped in half with the rudder. So, you always went out the escape hatch at the bottom. Yes. It would be a very foolhardy thing to go out the top. Yeah. That was quite interesting now you’ve come to mention it. When we were at Gransden Lodge we were doing, going up on an air test actually and we got up to about ten thousand feet and all of a sudden there was a hell of a bang and a lot of rubbish and what not flying about and George said, ‘Get ready to jump.’ So, I sort of put the parachute on and he said, ‘Oh.’ he said, ‘The aircraft seems to be flying all right,’ he said, ‘I thought the front had gone in.’ You know, the nose, with all the rubbish and what not. We were looking around. Couldn’t see anything wrong. And then we looked up and we found that the top hatch had blown off. And of course the vacuum, the sort of [unclear] effect too place all the rubbish in the bomb bay had come out and he said just said, just tried it and he said, ‘The chances are it’s probably altered the stalling speed a bit.’ So instead of carrying on with the climb he played about and found out exactly how the aircraft handled at a hundred and twenty knots which was the normal approach speed and he found it was probably about a hundred and thirty knots with the extra drag. And so, we aborted and came back and landed. There was quite a hullabaloo, you know. ‘How come you lost that hatch?’ Well, one of those things. Yeah. They didn’t charge us for it [laughs] 664B. I take it you know what 664B was.
CB: No. Tell us. Tell us for the tape.
RM: 664B action was to re-claim from your wages.
CB: Yeah.
RM: The money for whatever it was that you’d lost, stolen or strayed. Yeah. A lot of people for instance lost their wristwatches and went on 664B because you could get a Rolex for around about six pounds ten shillings. The Longines. I had actually had a Longines wristwatch. We were issued with watches. I don’t know whether you realise this or not but we had, were equipped with aircrew watches and we had to rate them and adjust them so that they lost no more or gained no more than two seconds a day. Now, that stems from the vital necessity of having exact time to the second when you’re doing astro shots. Because one second in time can mean about a quarter of a mile in position. And for instance Coastal Command types. The Catalinas and the old Flying Boats.
CB: The Sunderlands.
RM: The Sunderland. If they were returning and they had very poor radio signals. Very few Astra shots. And could not be absolutely certain of their landfall because of the astro shots and wrong time. A few seconds. I mean a quarter of a mile could mean the difference between getting into a fjord or a bay or hitting the land at the side of it. So it was vitally important that you got the time down to a second. It wouldn’t have mattered now because course cards. So accurate. But of course with the spring you actually had to adjust them. Now, the first watch I had we were equipped with these at navigation school at Charlottetown. The first one I had was a Waltham. An American which was quite well thought of. But I just could not get it closer than about five seconds no matter how I tried. And after two weeks they said, ‘Right. That’s no use.’ So, I took it back and got a Longines and within a week I’d got that sorted out and it worked quite well. And kept that right the way through and stupidly I handed that in when I was demobbed. Because as I said 664B I could have had it for six pounds fifty. Six pounds.
CB: Even in those days.
RM: Another thing. Another thing too which I bitterly resent or regret handing in was my sunglasses. Now, they were Ray-Ban. Green. They were superb for sun. want a pair of Ray-Ban sunglasses now. Ninety quid. Ridiculous isn’t it? They would have cost about three pounds.
Other: Yeah.
RM: On 664B.
CB: You talked about astro shots. You talked about astro shots so where would you put the sextant. Could you hang it on the —?
RM: Yes, you hung it in the astro dome.
CB: Yeah.
RM: Now, you can turn this off because I’m going to be in trouble.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Dick Maywood
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-09
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMaywoodRM151109
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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02:21:54 audio recording
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Herefordshire
England--Norfolk
England--Oxfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Aberdeenshire
England--Leicestershire
Canada
Ontario
Ontario--Goderich
Alberta
Prince Edward Island
Prince Edward Island--Charlottetown
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Ontario--Belleville
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
1945-05-08
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Description
An account of the resource
Dick was born in Peterborough and volunteered for the Royal Air Force in 1941. He was called up to Lord’s Cricket Ground in 1942. Dick went to No. 6 Initial Training Wing at Aberystwyth. He then went to RAF Desford, flying Tiger Moths and was selected for further pilot training. After Heaton Park, Dick volunteered for the flying boat course and flew on Stearman N254s at Grosse Isle in the United States. He returned to Canada, initially to Windsor where he was re-selected as a navigator air bomber. He was sent to Goderich and then Mountain View to the bombing and gunnery school on Mark 2 Ansons and the Bolingbroke. He gained his brevet at Navigation School in Charlottetown on Prince Edward Island.
Dick underwent intensive map training on his return and went to the Advanced Flying Unit in Wigtown on Ansons. He proceeded to the Operational Training Unit at RAF Upper Heyford on Oxfords, where he was introduced to Loran. He had just started a tour as a Mosquito Pathfinder navigator before VE Day. He describes the aircraft, Oboe, and the pattern of their operations. Dick participated in Cook’s Tours to the Ruhr Valley. He was in 608 Squadron but it was disbanded and so he was posted to 692 Squadron, another Group 8 unit, at RAF Gransden Lodge. This was also disbanded, and Dick was sent to RAF Blyton for a re-selection board where he was sent on a flight mechanic engines course at RAF Credenhill. He was posted to the 254 torpedo Beaufighter Squadron at Langham until he was demobilised.
608 Squadron
692 Squadron
8 Group
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
B-17
Beaufighter
Bolingbroke
Cook’s tour
flight engineer
Gee
Initial Training Wing
Master Bomber
Me 262
military living conditions
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Oboe
Oxford
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Banff
RAF Blyton
RAF Credenhill
RAF Desford
RAF Downham Market
RAF Gransden Lodge
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Upper Heyford
sanitation
Stearman
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/620/8889/PPaineGH1616.2.jpg
c7fb40cc6f0bfbe3e8dfa9843065b6cb
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/620/8889/APaineGH160726.1.mp3
924472391843693055dda8d9ecb5466d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Paine, Geoff
Geoffrey Hugh Paine
G H Paine
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Paine, GH
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Geoffrey Paine (1925 - 2019, 1894345, Royal Air Force) documents and photographs. He flew as a pilot with 100 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Geoffrey Paine and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
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2016-07-20
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and it’s the 26th July 2012 and I’m speaking with Mr & Mrs Paine, Geoffrey Paine the pilot and we’re in Croxley Green and we’re going to talk about the life and times of Geoff in the RAF and other activities. So, what are your earliest recollections of life Geoff?
GP: My earliest recollections of life? Oh, when I was a small boy do you mean? [Laughs] I lived at Gerrards Cross which is just down the road from here so I’m a, almost lived here all my life, yes always have, telephone [telephone ringing] always have done to be frank. [Telephone ringing]
CB: I’ll stop it just for a moment.
PP: I’ll go and get it.
CB: It gets.
PP: That was timed wasn’t it?
CB: I was going to say, yeah.
GP: That’s better, yes.
CB: Yes.
GP: So in Gerrards Cross I went to school first of all at —
PP: Not leaving a message, so can’t be important.
GP: I went to school first at High Wycombe Royal Grammar School and then I went down to Cornwall and went to Falmouth Grammar School, and of course when I was there the war was on and I volunteered for the RAF, I was in the ATC, Air Training Corps, down there I was one, actually joined the Air Training Corps when it was probably first formed quite early on and I volunteered for royal air force and as soon as I was eighteen I was whipped into it. [Laughs] No trouble at all. And then now where did I go first? Oh my goodness me I went to London first and then I was sent down, we had about, when I signed up in London, we had about three or four days in London and then I went to Aberystwyth, and we were billeted on, in hotels on the sea front at Aberystwyth and we used to have our lessons in the University Aber, Aberystwyth and our drill on the sea front of course, there was a great lovely big sea front there you could drill on, hard standing and then I volunteered of course for the RAF and my first recollections really I went to grading school, didn’t I, I think, I think perhaps it was grading school, No 6, yes, of course I went to an ITW first an initial training wing and then I, was on 20th September, at Aberystwyth, it was a nice place to be, billeted in the Belle Vue hotel, little hotel we were all in hotels there, we did all our drill on the sea front and we used their swimming pool, we had to go up to the swimming pool on a very cold morning, and the first time we went there we were all non-swimmers, we had to climb to the top diving board and jump in, and we were fished out with long poles, and there was one chap couldn’t do it, ground staff, [laughs] he wasn’t allowed to join aircrew, amazing. I felt sorry for him because he was very, completely gobsmacked he was. It took a bit to jump in because they’re quite high the top boards, and they had this great big long pole, and you grabbed hold of it and they pulled you in and you soon learnt to swim, I mean within a couple of days you were swimming the length of the pool so it was a good way to start, I think.
CB: Yes.
GP: A good way to start that. That was Aberystwyth, gosh, what did I do then?
PP: Well you’ve got it all written down old man, use your notes, use your notes!
CB: I’m just going to stop it a moment.
PP: Yes, go on.
GP: Elementary Flying Training School, Ansty, I went first, I did my first solo at six and a quarter hours, which was quite early I think ‘cause me instructor was leaping about, he’d beaten everybody else getting me in the air [Laughs]. Then I went to ITW at Cambridge just for a short time this was, they moved you about just to fill up time. Then I went to 100 Sqn, RAF Waltham, and there I packed thousands of blooming incendiary bombs. They were going on big raids then from Waltham and it was a continuous packing of incendiary bombs, thousands they, the whole place, must have put Germany on fire I think. Then what happened then? Bomb damage repairs Hornchurch, [?] where did I get to? Heaton Park, 18th of July ’44 and then Hornchurch, bomb damage repairs, and then Kew, bomb damage repairs, and then Hendon, again bomb damage repairs, and then I was put on a boat, the ‘Andes’ to go to Cape Town and from Cape Town you go on that beautiful train all the way up to Bulewao, I think it took three days, two days and a night I think and we went to RAF Guinea Fowl to start our elementary flying training on Cornells and then from there I went to RAF Ternhill to fly on Harlands, and then I think it was getting a bit near the end of the war. Twenty-five, five, forty-five, oh my giddy aunt yes.
CB: OK, we’ll stop again a mo’. Could you just explain the bomb damage repair you were doing, so what was the scene?
GP: Well we, there were about I think twenty, twenty-five of us, and we had a chiefie, you know an RAF sergeant.
CB: Flight sergeant, um.
GP: Nice old chap, and a lorry and when a bomb had dropped and blew all the tiles of roofs, blew the windows in we were piled off, given a place to go and there we had all the necessary stuff to, yellow calico stuff, to nail to the window to keep the wind out because all the glass had gone, we put stuff on the roofs, if there were tiles we put tiles, if not we put tarpaulins on the roofs just to make the place habitable, habitable after the bombing, that’s what happened then.
CB: So some of this was in East London?
GP: Yes it was, it was in East and West, and West London too, yes.
CB: And what about Hendon, that’s an airfield, so?
GP: Yes.
CB: What happened there?
GP: I went to Hendon just for a few days. They’d had a, a doodlebug had landed in the evening when they were all having showers and things right onto an accommodation block.
CB: An RAF billet block?
GP: And we had to clear the site which meant clearing human remains as well, it wasn’t very nice at all. It meant shovelling bricks, shovelling it on a lorry and off it all went, that was it. A complete barrack block got a direct hit, unbelievable really they picked that one building out on the station.
CB: Amazing. And what with the human remains this was a sensitive thing but what did you do with them?
GP: Well, you find yourself a hand with a bit of the, bit of the —
CB: The bone, yes.
GP: A bit of bone sticking out, you didn’t know whose it was.
CB: No.
GP: You just put it in a pile, no way of finding out at all.
CB: So what did they then do with those?
GP: I think they were buried somewhere ‘cause they didn’t know whose they were. They knew who’d died in the blocks obviously but the remains you couldn’t really match them up, impossible. Didn’t find any heads or anything, mostly arms and legs and bits and pieces like that. Not very pleasant but it was as if you were in another place, it didn’t mean much because there was no body with it, just an arm or a leg, wasn’t very nice at all. Oh gosh what did I do after that?
CB: So going on from there you were on the ‘Andes’ yes?
GP: Yes.
CB: Which route did that take and how long?
GP: Oh, it was lovely we called in on the way, it was a posh boat the ‘Andes’, a cruise ship and we called into, what’s it called half way down?
CB: You didn’t go via Canada?
GP: No, we didn’t, no. [unclear]
CB: You went in the west coast of Africa did you?
GP: Of Africa, I’m trying to think.
CB: OK, and who were the people being transported, were they only air force or?
GP: Only air force yeah, I’m trying to pick it up on here. All here, near Gwelo. Yes, that’s right. It was back a bit, arrived at Cape Town.
CB: Yeah.
GP: We went on this nice boat to Cape Town on 1st March.
CB: 1945?
GP: Then we were heading for Southern Rhodesia.
CB: Yes.
GP: I think it took two and a half days to get to Rhodesia.
CB: OK.
GP: Two days and a night. Each carriage had bunks to sleep six so we arrived in Bulewao on 4th March and spent twelve days there to become acclimatised, being so high up above sea level I think it was, I think it was about six or seven thousand feet above sea level.
CB: How did they acclimatise you?
GP: Well just a matter of —
CB: Exercise or?
GP: Matter of doing a few marches, they used to take us out and drop us out on the bush and we had to find our way back and you had to be very careful because if you didn’t pull your socks up or your trousers down you got ticks sticking in your knees all over the place because they used to be on the undergrowth and they’d burrow into your skin.
CB: Yes.
GP: And —.
CB: How did you get them out?
GP: With a cigarette if you had a cigarette, you’d put a bit of heat behind them and they reversed their way out, that was better than doing it any other way otherwise they left the beak in there didn’t they you see? So you got a cigarette behind them and they soon came in reverse [laughs]. Yeah, oh gosh.
CB: And how did the flying go when you were there, you were flying Cornells?
GP: Cornells, well the weather of course, every day was like this, beautiful weather, beautiful weather, lovely flying, and it was, the airfield was out, well out in the countryside and we did a lot of low level flying. We used to beat up the native villages, I can see them all now cowering underneath their little shelters. They lived in thatched roof, you know rough little places, we were pretty horrible to them really. [Laughs]. We used them as a target, we didn’t hit anybody but we used to go in very low and —
CB: Yeah.
GP: And then what else, I think, the war finished and we were shuffled off down to Cape Town and we were there for several weeks, we had a wild time because we climbed all the, well I climbed all the mountains. As you know Cape Town goes all the way round, I climbed all the mountains there, I used to live on the mountain. We’d go to Muizenberg and we’d learned to surf, lovely surf at Muizenberg and the people there were ex-pats who’d moved out there before the war and they were very nice, if they saw you coming down the mountainside they’d call you in and you’d have coffee and cakes and goodness knows what, they looked after you which was jolly nice. We were there for some time before they shipped us home again you see, it was really like a nice holiday really.
CB: What was the ship like that you returned on?
GP: A bit rougher than the one we went out on, we went on the ‘Andes’, came back on the ‘Reina del Pacifico’, which was a bit of, I think the ball had blew up in Belfast when we came back, it was a real old tramp steamer, [chuckles] packed with RAF people coming home.
CB: So we’re talking about May 1945?
GP: May ’45 yes.
CB: And you then went where?
GP: I went to, can you find it below, yes this is it here, yes. I went to RAF Ternhill, on the 25th May we went to Ternhill.
CB: What did you do there?
GP: I’m trying to think, um.
CB: That would be where you the advanced training. [Dialogue confused with interviewer].
GP: Flying Harvards. Yes I was flying Harvards there. I went solo in three hours forty minutes which was quite good and received my pilot wings and along came VJ day, got my pilot wings there and then a victory in Japan day and the second world war —
CB: Yeah.
GP: All flying training ceased.
CB: OK.
GP: We all returned to Cape Town to await our boat home to England, four wonderful weeks in Cape Town climbing the mountains.
CB: So that’s what you did earlier?
GP: Yeah.
CB: So if I just interrupt you again?
GP: Yes.
CB: We come to the end of the war but in the war you were in the Air Training Corps but you were also in the Observer Corps were you?
GP: Yes, no.
CB: That was later?
GP: That was later.
CB: OK, so we’ll come to that in a minute.
GP: Yes.
CB: OK I’m just going to stop for a moment. We’re just doing a correction here, because it’s not Ternhill in England, it’s RAF Thornhill, before coming back. Let me just.
GP: Yes, we went down to —
CB: So after Guinea Fowl then where did you go?
GP: We went down to Thornhill.
CB: Right.
GP: Another RAF training school, No22 Flying training School at Thornhill, and on, along came VJ Day, that was on Harvards, but along came VJ Day and all flying ceased and we were just enjoying ourselves, put on a train and sent back to Cape Town. And when we got to Cape Town there was no boat. We saw the boat going out, we missed the boat, and so we had about four or five weeks in Cape Town to do what we wanted so we climbed the mountains, I did, I climbed up the mountains went all along the back behind Cape Town [Colossal?] and then down over, it was interesting, coming down Oloch[?] you had to get down on to the main road if you wanted to get back to where camp was and there were all these people who, ex-pats who’d built lovely houses there, obviously moneyed people, and they used to welcome us with open arms, ‘Do come in’, used to open a little gate and they’d give you cakes and tea, coffee and drinks if you wanted it. We had rather a nice time, four or five weeks there, before we came back on the boat to come home. And we got on this tramp steamer I called it, ‘Reina del Pacifico’ it was a rough old boat, a lot of people on it, very much overloaded, I’ve got pictures of it here we have, we kept. We stopped at Mafeking going down through, that was interesting coming down to South Africa and —
CB: On the train?
GP: Yes, I got off the train there ‘cause the train was there for a while. They were changing engines so I said to the driver ‘How long are they going to be?’ he said ‘Half hour, three quarters of an hour’ so I went down to have a look at Mafeking and there, there’s Rhodes.
CB: Statue?
GP: Cecil Rhodes statue. Which was quite interesting.
CB: Yes, yes.
GP: And this was when we spent time down to Cape Town and I spent my time climbing mountains there.
CB: So on this boat then, ‘cause you’re going back on the boat.
GP: Yes, back on the boat.
CB: What was that like?
GP: Yeah.
CB: What was that like?
GP: A bit overcrowded.
CB: Um.
GP: But we came out of Cape Town and then we came up the coast and we called in at St Helena which was interesting because Napoleon had been banished there.
CB: Yes.
GP: And the people came out, and I remember buying my mother a tea cosy made out of local raffia or something. [Laughs]. Had quite a good time really. Now what else happened, what happened after that, oh gosh?
CB: So then where did you dock when you got back?
GP: Liverpool.
CB: Um. And where did they send you when you returned?
GP: Trying to think, Liverpool.
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo’ hang on.
PP: Dad.
CB: Right so you’ve landed at Liverpool then what?
GP: Yes, we went to, went down to West Kirby in October ’45. I don’t think we did very much there at all, we were just swanning around, didn’t know what to do with us and then they sent us to Stansted. Stansted was an airfield that had closed and we were put in the hangars and lorry loads of equipment from closing airfields came in and what we did we built little bivouac’s underneath some of this equipment and hid there, nobody knew we were there, otherwise we were given a job. So, we were there for about four or five weeks, hiding away [laughter] otherwise you would, they just gave you something to keep you out of mischief I suppose really. And then 28th November ‘45 I went to number, Bircham Newton, No27 FSTS Bircham Newton, and then I went to Little Rissington, 6FS, solo flying training school at Little Rissington on the 18th January ’46, then I went to Ternhill where I got my wings on 3rd September ’46, quite a long process wasn’t it?.
CB: What were you flying then?
GP: Harvards. That was in Harvards.
CB: So all three of those you were flying Harvards were you?
GP: Harvards yeah.
CB: Right.
GP: [Indistinct]. Kirton-in-Lindsay, oh I flew everything then, doesn’t go on there. I flew Oxfords, Hansons.
CB: So how did you convert to twin engine?
GP: No problem at all.
CB: Yeah, but where?
GP: Gosh, where’s my logbook, where’s my logbook?
CB: OK, we’ll look at it in a moment.
GP: I can see in my logbook —
CB: But you had a good time with these other ones, flying single?
GP: Oh yes, excellent time.
CB: Yeah OK, we’ll stop there for a moment. So, from Kirton-in-Lindsay which is in Lincolnshire you went down to Oakington?
GP: Oakington yes.
CB: And what did you do there?
GP: Oakington? I think I did a little bit of local flying.
CB: On what?
GP: What was that in? Gosh, um, has it got it there Pete?
CB: But what was happening at Oakington which is in Cambridgeshire?
GP: Yes it was a flying training school and um —
CB: For? ‘Cause you went on to Yorks there?
GP: Yes, I went onto Yorks there. Gosh it’s difficult to think of it all now.
CB: OK.
GP: How it all pieced together now.
CB: OK, well never mind. So you went onto Yorks?
GP: Yeah.
CB: And what position were you flying there?
GP: Second pilot on Yorks.
CB: But you’d never been converted to twin-engine or four-engine?
GP: No, no, I just sat in the right-hand seat and enjoyed myself.
CB: Yes. And what did the captain get you to do as the second pilot?
GP: Well, keep an eye open, [laughs], I used to go back, I used to leave my seat and go back in the back and fill in the logs ‘cause you always had this great big log to fill in. I used to keep the logs in the aircraft and then when I finished that I’d sit back next to the pilot again.
CB: Yeah.
GP: But it was a bit of a swansong really.
CB: And the pilot what was his experience before being on Yorks?
GP: Well, he’d had been on Lancasters.
CB: Had he?
GP: Yeah.
CB: And a Lancaster only had one pilot so he was quite happy?
GP: Flt Lt Horry, ‘Horrible Horry’ they called him.
CB: Did they?
GP: And he flew the last York into the museum.
CB: At Hendon?
GP: At Hendon, yes. Horry, I got on well with him, they used to call him ‘Horrible Horry’ but he wasn’t, quite a nice chap, I had a very easy time.
CB: And where did you go in the Yorks?
GP: Oh, we went route flying. You flew across alongside the Andes, the um, —
CB: So you went down through France?
GP: Yeah, through France, and then you turned left along the Mediterranean and you called in at various places.
CB: Would you stop at Orange?
GP: I stopped at several places there.
CB: In France?
GP: And what amused me at the RAF stations there in North Africa, we still had German prisoners of war, and the German prisoners of war would be given a big stick to keep the natives from coming in and robbing the things on the station, that was his job, yes, he had a big pole and that would keep the natives out, and he used it too [laughs]. ‘Cause they’d come, they’d pinch anything, they’d pinch anything. Oh dear, yeah.
CB: So your re-fuelling stops would be how long?
GP: Oh, sometimes we’d have a night, sometimes we wouldn’t have a re-fuelling on the gain, and we’d get as far as India, go up to Karachi and we used to land at Suez down the bottom there, and I used to love it there ‘cause you could hire a boat there and go sailing on the big lakes down the bottom there, and I used to go up to Karachi, we used to fly up to Karachi.
CB: Did you fly via Aiden?
GP: No, I don’t think I went to.
CB: So you went to Iraq did you, through Habbanya?
GP: Yeah, yeah Habbanya. Cor, it’s all a bit of mist at the moment.
CB: That’s OK and this was doing what?
GP: I was second pilot.
CB: Yeah, but what was the ‘plane doing?
GP: Yorks. Carrying freight.
CB: Freight.
GP: Freight, yeah we didn’t carry, well we carried a few, odd people who wanted to fly back, in fact we brought my brother back from, on one occasion, from Cairo, he came back in the aircraft with us.
CB: And what, what, you delivered freight to Karachi?
GP: Yes.
CB: What did you bring back?
GP: Freight came back as well. I can’t tell you what came back I suppose they were packing up the stations, and the important stuff we would fly back home. Then they moved us from, God where we flying from then?
CB: ‘Cause we’re talking now about the time of partition aren’t we?
GP: Yeah.
CB: Between Pakistan and India?
GP: It’s all in the distant past now for me.
CB: We’ll stop there a mo’. So, this delivery system you were operating was from RAF Lyneham?
GP: Yes.
CB: In Wiltshire.
GP: That’s right.
CB: In the aircraft could you just describe what was the crew? This is a transport version of the Lancaster so what did it carry in crew terms?
GP: We had a first pilot, we had me second pilot, and I was sitting in the right hand seat really as a lookout in a way, and we had a wireless operator and a navigator, that’s all we had and we’d fly down, call in at various places in North Africa.
CB: But you had an engineer?
GP: Flight engineer.
CB: Yes, flight engineer.
GP: We’d stop at various places in North Africa and unload freight, or load freight, a lot of freight came home because they were closing the stations when we came back, they were loaded with all sorts of stuff, stations, getting rid of it, getting it home.
CB: What sort of accommodation did you get on the route? So your first stop is Castel Benito?
GP: Well I’m thinking about Malta, ‘cause we went into Malta, I went into Malta.
CB: Yeah.
GP: I had nice accommodation there, very, very hot and humid in Malta, I didn’t like it at all when I was there, very humid, terrible. In fact one day I spent the whole day sitting on the edge of the shower it was so blimin’ humid, it was awful. On other occasions Malta was very nice, we just happened to get the weather that’s all. I did nothing but act as second pilot really.
CB: In North Africa, were you in tents or were they proper buildings?
GP: Oh I’m trying to think, trying to think. No, we were in proper buildings, we were in proper buildings, hard to place it now.
CB: Um.
GP: Yes, we were in proper buildings there, I don’t remember being in tents at all, I don’t remember being in tents.
CB: And how busy was the route? And you’re the lookout how often did you see?
GP: Well it was pretty busy because really because there was a lot of freight coming back. Some, little bit going out, but a lot of freight coming back from closing stations and so forth, so we used to have a lot of freight on-board. I would be up with the pilot and then once we got airborne I’d go down the back and fill in the log, we had a great big log to fill in, what we’d got on board and everything else, I used to do, keep the log. Then come back home, it’s all misty parts [laughs] —
CB: Yeah, yeah. So after flying in Yorks without training on twin or multi-engine.
GP: Yeah.
CB: Where did you go after that?
GP: Oh crikey.
CB: Did you go for twin-engine training?
GP: Where’s my logbook?
CB: So you went to Valley?
GP: RAF Valley.
CB: In North Wales?
GP: Yeah North Wales, that’s right it was very nice there.
CB: So what did you do there?
GP: [Laughs] Skive most of the time on the beach. [Laughter] because we had um —
CB: This was September ’46?
GP: The airfield was quite near the beach.
CB: ’47?
GP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
GP: Yeah, was nice there. Cor gosh, it’s a job to remember it was a long way back.
CB: But the flying training was twin-engine training was it?
GP: Twin-engine training.
CB: In Oxfords?
GP: In Oxfords and Ansons yeah.
CB: So how did that go?
GP: And Ansons yeah.
CB: How did that go?
GP: It went very well really ‘cause there were a bunch of us, there’s a photograph of us in there I think, all pilots and navigators. Or is it in this one?
CB: Well, we’ll have a look in a minute. And the point of the question is you’d had experience on multi-engine?
GP: Yes.
CB: So I wonder how well that prepared you for twin-engine training?
GP: Fine, ‘cause I went onto Wellingtons.
CB: From?
GP: Middleton St George.
CB: Oh right.
GP: And flying UT navigators, they were all UT navs, I used to end up with sometimes one, sometimes two or three navigators in the back, and a wireless operator. Used to fly every day or every night.
CB: And then you went to Swinderby?
GP: RAF Swinderby.
CB: 201 AFS?
GP: Yes.
CB: So were you instructing there or what were you doing?
GP: What was I doing in Swinderby?
CB: ‘Cause you were on Wellingtons?
GP: Yes.
CB: And you were on familiarisation for a while, but what was the purpose of that?
GP: I did a bit of flying there. Can I have a look at —
CB: Yes, we’ll stop there for a minute. So, you went to Swinderby to the advanced flying school for Wellingtons?
GP: Yes.
CB: Then you went to RAF Topcliffe, which is clearly a nav school and you’re flying on Ansons?
GP: Yes.
CB: So.
GP: I was learning to be a staff pilot then.
CB: Right.
GP: So I could fly anything, Ansons, Oxfords, Wellingtons.
CB: Yes. OK.
GP: Used to mix it up.
CB: Right. So, um, at Topcliffe you were doing what?
GP: Topcliffe?
CB: So this is the No1 Air Navigation School and you’re flying on Ansons so.
GP: I think I was a staff pilot.
CB: You were a staff pilot OK.
GP: Yes.
CB: So you’re flying in an Anson, who else is in the Anson?
GP: Um, wireless operator.
CB: Um.
GP: And probably a training navigator to train, [unclear].
CB: Yeah.
GP: They were UT navigators.
CB: Right.
GP: So they used a couple, they used UT navigators, sometimes two UT navigators and one staff navigator.
CB: OK, who was the instructor?
GP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah, and were you being trained at the same time?
GP: No, I was just flying.
CB: Right, OK, right. So from there you then went onto Wellingtons again?
GP: Wellingtons.
CB: And this time you were at Middleton St George.
GP: Middleton St George, yeah I spent most of my time there then.
CB: So talk us through that, what was that, what were you doing there?
GP: Flying UT navigators all over the place, every day, every night.
CB: Right.
GP: I was a staff pilot there so.
CB: OK.
GP: I had my own wireless operator.
CB: Um.
GP: Forget what he was called now. He’s there somewhere.
CB: But the practicality of it is that that kept you busy for quite some time?
GP: Oh yes it did, until I finished I think.
CB: OK. So, when you, you were the captain of the aircraft, except when you had to be checked out occasionally?
GP: Yes that’s right.
CB: So that takes you to the end of your flying training by which time you’d done eleven hundred hours?
GP: Yes.
CB: So your biggest, where was your biggest hour accumulation, flying hours?
GP: Probably flying out to India.
CB: And on these Wellingtons you put in a few hours?
GP: No that was on, not Lancasters, on —
CB: On the Anson, on the Wellington?
PP: Yorks?
GP: No, Yorks.
CB: Yorks to India. Yeah, no, no, but this.
GP: Second pilot of Yorks.
CB: But at the end you were doing the training of navigators?
GP: I was training, UT navigators, in the back. Usually a staff navigator and UT navigator.
CB: Yeah, at Middleton, OK. ‘Cause you started there at six hundred and eighty four hours, and you finished up with eleven hundred hours.
GP: Yeah.
CB: That was pretty good going.
GP: There was a lot of flying see.
CB: And how did you feel about flying like that?
GP: No problem I loved it, I did, I enjoyed it, I really enjoyed it.
CB: And the navigators were telling you where to go so sometimes it wasn’t right.
GP: Which course to go on. I dozed off one night, I’d been on nights, I dozed off and got a tap on the shoulder, ‘Excuse me sir’.
CB: And to what extent could you fly on auto-pilot, or was it just trimmed for stability?
GP: Oh you could, almost entirely, almost entirely you could fix it.
CB: But you did have auto-pilot?
GP: We had auto-pilot, yeah.
CB: Yeah. How reliable was that?
GP: Very reliable, yeah, very reliable.
CB: So this is how you could catch up on your sleep?
GP: We kept an eye on things, you just sat there, you were just a passenger on the aircraft. Aircraft flew itself really.
CB: Yes. And where were the sorties, because Middleton St George is on the north east, close to the coast, did you fly?
GP: Well we used to come right down over the country, down to the, down to Cornwall and the Isle of Wight and up, up again up the east side, yeah we did all sorts of trips.
CB: By then we’re talking about peace time, so everything’s illuminated so to what extent could you check where you were without the navigator helping you?
GP: Well you could ‘cause you, as a pilot, you kept a check on where you were. You knew what course you were flying, or you knew the main places you could identify on the route and it was normally anti-clockwise, you’d go down across Wales and then across to the east coast then up, nearly always that way round.
CB: Right.
GP: For some reason or another, I don’t know why.
CB: So that was No2 Air Navigation School at Middleton St George?
GP: No2 Air Nav yes.
CB: So you come to the end of your time?
GP: Yes.
CB: What rank are you then?
GP: Pilot three.
CB: Right. As what rank?
GP: Well it’s equivalent to a sergeant pilot really.
CB: Right.
GP: But um.
CB: What had they done to the ranks?
GP: I was a pilot four, that was equivalent to a corporal ‘cause they changed it all you see.
CB: Right.
GP: And when the SWO found out I was still in the sergeants, I’d been in the sergeants mess, but because they changed the ranks he said ‘You can’t come in here now, you’re only a corporal’ but I went to the airmans mess and had a far better time in there I can tell you.
CB: At what stage was that?
GP: God only knows.
CB: Was that close to your leaving the RAF or many years?
GP: Yes a couple of years I think.
CB: Yeah.
GP: Yes, you can see from my logbook.
CB: OK. So, you’ve come to the end of your RAF term, how many years had you signed on for?
GP: Three years and four years reserve I think it was.
CB: Right. So, you came out of the RAF in ’49.
GP: Yes.
CB: What did you then do?
GP: Farming, [laughs], took a farm. Then what did I do then? I went in the Observer Corps didn’t I?
EP: ’61 you went in the Observers.
GP: Royal Observer Corps.
CB: OK, what prompted that?
GP: I became a commander in the Royal Observer Corps and —
EP: You went full time ’66.
GP: What was that darling?
EP: You went full time in ’66.
GP: Yes I went full time in ’66 yes.
CB: Fine. And how long did that last?
Unknown: [Indistinct]
GP: Three years was it?
EP: No until you retired.
GP: Until I retired yeah, yeah.
CB: Aged what?
EP: Sixty.
GP: Sixty, when I was sixty.
CB: And while you were in the Observer Corps what was your task?
GP: What was?
CB: What was your task? What were you doing?
GP: Pilot.
CB: No excuse me, I’ll stop it.
GP: Oh sorry, Observer.
CB: So as part of the history here —
GP: Yes.
CB: How did you come to meet your wife Evelyn?
GP: Well —
CB: And when did you marry?
GP: I met Phillip, her brother, first and we had motorbikes, and he took me home.
CB: What was he doing?
GP: He was um, he was in the RAF still, and I was in the RAF, but he took me home, and I met Evelyn then, and oh gosh, it’s a long story isn’t it?
CB: Go on.
EP: That was in ’45.
GP: ’45. 1945.
EP: When you came back from Rhodesia.
GP: I’d come back all sunburnt from Rhodesia, yeah. [Laughter]. Yeah that right, and we got, we just clicked didn’t we, we just got on so well. I think, never had any arguments.
CB: Well there you are.
GP: And her family were very nice to me, your father was very nice to me. He was a funny old chap her father but he was very nice to me indeed, in fact he gave you away, came up the aisle with you to me.
CB: Lovely. And he was a farmer was he?
GP: Oh no.
CB: Oh no, what did he do?
GP: Well I don’t know, [laughs], practically nothing I think. He’d um —
CB: So when did you marry?
EP: ’48.
GP: 1948. Twenty sixth of August, was it? 26th? 1948. Yeah, and he gave her away.
CB: OK.
GP: Doesn’t sound right somehow does it, how can he give you away?
CB: Well I’ve just done it twice.
GP: Yes.
CB: It relieves the financial pressure you might think.
GP: That’s right, that’s right.
CB: Doesn’t work that way at all.
GP: We’ve always got on, never had any upsets as far as I can remember.
EP: Show you the letter.
CB: I’m just stopping a moment. Now here we have a letter from the Queen which ‘gives her great pleasure to send you her best wishes on your sixty-fifth wedding anniversary on twenty-sixty August 2013’.
GP: We’ve got, we’ve got two haven’t we from the Queen? The other one’s hanging up there behind the lamp.
CB: Yes. That’s really nice.
GP: We’ve met the Queen.
CB: Yes.
GP: She’s very nice.
CB: You went down to Buckingham Palace did you?
GP: Yeah.
CB: Was there a garden party?
GP: Garden party.
CB: How did that go?
GP: We went to the garden party. At one occasion my nephew drove us there and the car conked out going down Whitehall [laughs] and we walked into Buckingham Palace. [Laughter].
EP: But we met her at Bentley Priory, that’s where you met her ‘cause we went to [?]
GP: Oh yes, I was in charge at Bentley Priory so I had to meet her didn’t I?
CB: Right. So now what we need to do if we may is talk if we may about your time in the Observer Corps.
GP: Yeah.
CB: So how did you come to join the Observer Corps and where?
EP: Because we were farming.
GP: Yeah, we were farming —
CB: Where?
GP: In Cornwall.
CB: Down in Cornwall, yeah.
GP: Who did I meet?
EP: You met, you went haymaking at next door neighbour.
GP: Next what?
EP: You went next door neighbour, helping with the harvest.
GP: Yes.
EP: And a ‘plane flew over and you went over to have a look didn’t you?
GP: That’s right yeah, ‘Are you interested in aircraft?’, I said ‘Yes, I was a pilot’.
CB: Yeah, and how did the conversation go after that.
EP: He said he had a post on his farm didn’t he?
GP: Yes that’s right he did. Who was that? That was um —
EP: Stevens.
GP: Stevens yes. Yes, he said ‘I’ve got a post on my farm’ that’s right. Um, he had these underground posts every, every four and a half, or five miles.
CB: Right. OK.
GP: They’re still there most of them.
CB: Yeah, hang on. So, this chap’s farm was where you started was it?
GP: That’s right down in —
CB: Where was that?
GP: Down in Cornwall, Pelynt in Cornwall.
CB: OK.
GP: And there was an underground post there. Um a bunker.
CB: Right.
GP: And we had a crew of ten.
CB: Right.
GP: So we’d man it with three at a time so you had a succession of people manning the post.
CB: So what did this compromise, the underground?
GP: The underground, you had a bomb power indicator, you had a battle assembly pipe outside which would record the over pressure of a bomb if it dropped and you would record it on a dial, BPI. BPI - bomb power indicator.
CB: Right.
GP: And then outside you had a pin hole camera, 360 degree camera with a cover on it and you had to load up sensitive papers in that, take it up, put it on its stand outside. If a bomb went off then it would record the height, the size of the weapon and the angle from the post, so you knew exactly, you know you could pass all this information onto your headquarters which were down Truro and they could plot it all on a big map and knew exactly what was going on. It was quite clever really.
CB: So this was with a landline reporting?
GP: Yeah. Landline.
CB: On a landline?
GP: We had radio back up but mostly landline, but um —
CB: So this is Observer Corps, so people were out observing how did that work?
GP: Royal Observer Corps, and they’re from down underground. You had a bomb power indicator underground so if a bomb went off immediately you had, the bomb power indicator would show you how many pounds pressure there was.
CB: Yes, right.
GP: How big a bomb was, and then you waited about three minutes and you went up the ladder, got outside, lifted the lid of the ground zero indicator which was a pinhole camera.
CB: Right.
GP: With four pin holes.
CB: OK.
GP: And you’d lift the lid off, took out the papers to come downstairs and then sent the readings through to headquarters and they could plot that bomb and you had several posts call the same bomb and you’d get several angles they knew exactly where the bomb was, if it went, if you had one.
CB: So what sort of bomb was this supposed to be?
GP: Well a —
CB: A nuclear weapon or an ordinary bomb?
GP: A nuclear weapon probably yeah.
CB: But the Observer Corps itself during the war.
GP: Yeah. The eyes and ears of the RAF.
CB: Were doing something different was it? Was that doing something different?
GP: Eyes and ears of the RAF.
CB: Yes. They would be working above ground during the war.
CB: Right.
GP: Spotting aircraft, saying where they were going and what they were doing, and then we went to the nuclear phase where they built all these bunkers, they’re still there ‘cause they’re solid concrete underground, most of them are still there.
CB: Right.
GP: One or two of them have been excavated but most of the are still there, if anybody’s got the keys they can go down them.
CB: So what distance are they apart?
GP: It’ll be eight miles.
CB: Right, and where are they in the country?
GP: Eight to ten miles. [?]all over the country.
CB: Right.
GP: Everywhere. There was one at Pelynt, where was the nearest one to Pelynt?
EP: I’ve no idea.
GP: Oh, um, trying to think now. They were about every eight, between eight and ten miles apart.
CB: So you were doing this part-time to begin with were you?
GP: Um.
EP: Yes.
GP: Yes I was to begin with.
CB: At what point did you change to full-time?
GP: God.
EP: ’66.
GP: ’66 was it?
EP: Yes.
GP: Yeah, she would know [laughs]. 1966 – full time. Yes I became an observer commander so I had quite a responsibility, then I got posted to Preston, Lancashire but I still kept my home here.
CB: Yeah.
GP: Came home on Friday nights, and went back on the two minutes past seven in the morning to get into the office before anything started happening, yeah.
CB: So at Preston you’re now a senior man, what were you doing there?
GP: Preston, well we had, I had a headquarters there, quite a big headquarters, longer than this garden with offices all the way up with staff, ‘cause you had a local area, had a whole area. There was an area Commandant who was a spare time who didn’t really do very much except have a rank but he didn’t do anything, I was the, I was the one that did the work at Preston.
CB: How long did that last?
GP: ‘Til I retired didn’t it?
EP: Five years.
GP: Five years.
CB: Yes. And from Preston where did you go?
GP: Home.
CB: No.
GP: I was sixty then.
CB: Oh you were sixty. So how does the Bentley Priory part fit into this?
GP: Oh, Bentley Priory.
CB: I’m just going to stop a moment. So, from Preston you came to Bentley Priory?
GP: Yes, I did.
CB: Before you retired, what did you do there?
GP: Well I was in, oh what was I, I was in an office there, and I’m trying to think what I did there, cor dear.
CB: The Queen?
GP: Queen’s visit, we had a Queen’s visit to Bentley Priory.
CB: What did you do about that?
GP: We have observers from the whole of the country down there, bought them all down by train and we had a big garden party at Bentley Priory and I remember I went round one way with the Duke and somebody else went round the other way with the Queen, ‘cause we criss-crossed just to introduce to one or two extra people, special people on the way round, that sort of thing, Bentley Priory.
CB: And what was the significance of the event.
GP: [Exhalation of breath].
EP: Wasn’t it the closing down of ROC was it?
GP: I think it was.
PP: Anniversary?
GP: I don’t know, yes I think it probably was that we were anticipating being closed down, the ROC, and we had just this royal garden party and we invited the Queen.
CB: Yes.
GP: And the Duke.
CB: Right.
GP: The Queen, the garden party was split in two places with the, if you know Bentley Priory out the back is a fountain. One half was that side and we were the other side. So the Queen went round one side and we took the Duke round the other and he was hilarious [laughter], he really was the old Duke of Edinburgh, but we got a lot of fun, a lot of fun with him [laughs].
CB: Well he had a lot of background with the military.
GP: Yeah, yeah, he did.
CB: OK. Thank you. Now in the Observer Corps the people needed to be trained?
GP: Yes.
CB: And what did you do on an annual basis?
GP: On an annual basis we would have a big camp at an RAF station that was being closed.
CB: Right.
GP: And um we’d have a week, I think it was a week there, and observers come from all over England to do training there, which was quite good, but I used to go as a full-time staff and help do the training. It was quite good fun really.
CB: What was the training that they had?
GP: Aircraft recognition, mostly aircraft recognition, God, it’s hard to think.
CB: ‘Cause we’re talking about the Cold War time aren’t we?
GP: Yeah, we are.
CB: And um, so aircraft flying very high that’s no good, but so what were they looking for?
GP: They were still looking for aircraft, I’m trying to think.
CB: No more.
GP: Trying to think. There was still low level flying as well, you know it wasn’t all high level. Um, gosh.
CB: Because as well as recording the data.
GP: Yeah.
CB: About nuclear blasts they had to have training for that presumably?
GP: Yeah, we, trying to think about it now. Yes, we used to have exercises which were all planned, co-ordinated so that a post which was perhaps ten miles away would have a reading and a time, and a post which was ten miles away would have details of the same blast but different timing and different angles, you know the whole thing was co-ordinated as if the real attack had come, nuclear attack had come. Massive, massive, awful, awful to contemplate really, but the whole thing was planned nationally so that all the posts, all the stuff fed in would have co-ordinated properly you know? Quite a big job really. Quite a job, a lot of planning went into it.
CB: And where was this information fed to?
GP: Fighter Command, Fighter Command mostly I ‘spose, yeah, and local defence. Surprising we had scientific officers at each group headquarters, they would work out the fall-out, the radioactivity levels and so forth as if a bomb had really dropped and so we had scientific officers there, they weren’t in the Corps but they were scientists recruited to do that job. Great big screens, two big screens. Long range board and another big screen, and you’d plot on the back and the scientific officers would read the front but you’d plot on the back.
CB: Like fighter screens, and where were these regional headquarters located?
GP: God, all over the place. Oxford, big one at Oxford.
CB: On airfields or separate?
GP: No, separate from airfields.
CB: Right.
GP: One at Oxford, there was one here at.
EP: Watford had one.
GP: Here at Watford, the bunker is still there at Watford, and it belongs now to the vets doesn’t it? They use it down below ‘cause I went down it one night, I used to, when I was down at Horsham I used to come home and I used to go and check on the headquarters here at um —
CB: At Watford?
GP: Yeah. And I went in one night, a bit on leave, I came and couldn’t understand a light was on. So, I went in to put the light out and I could hear noises, der, der, der, der and I thought hello, I said ‘Somebody’s here’ so I walked on and there was a bloke there and what he was doing, he was preparing training material for his crew using all the tape and everything you see. So, I crept down there and I didn’t let him hear me coming and I walked up to him and tapped him on the shoulder. I’ve never seen a bloke jump so high in my life [laughter]. He didn’t think anybody could get in you see, because he had the key. He was using it, he shouldn’t have been using it really, using it to prepare all his training stuff for his crew. That was very funny and I was able to creep right up to him and tap him on the shoulder, I’ve never seen a bloke jump so high in my life. Frightened him to death [laughs], yeah, and that’s still there, that building. If you went to see the vet she’d probably let you in, if you said you’d — gosh when you think the money that was spent on it all.
CB: Yeah. Well this also linked in with the RSG’s didn’t it, the Regional Seats of Government?
GP: Yes, yes it did, that’s right the RSG’s. Yes, it was an interesting time really, in another few years it will all be forgotten nobody will know what it was all about will they?
CB: We’ll have to do research into that as well.
GP: [Laughs].
CB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Geoff Paine
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-26
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APaineGH160726
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Geoff Paine attended High Wycombe Royal Grammar School and Falmouth Grammar School, joined Air Training Corps and volunteered for the Royal Air Force at eighteen. Upon competition of initial training he was posted at RAF Waltham (100 Squadron) then at RAF Hornchurch, RAF Heaton Park and RAF Hendon. He served in a bomb damage repair unit, and reminisces a V-1 weapon exploding onto an accommodation block at RAF Hendon. Geoff continued his training in Africa (Cape Town, Bulawayo, Thornhill) flying Cornells and Harvards. He qualified as a pilot near the end of the war but after august 1945 flying activities ceased. Back in Great Britain he was stationed at RAF West Kirby, Stansted, RAF Bircham Newton, RAF Little Rissington, RAF Ternhill, RAF Oakington, RAF Lyneham, RAF Valley, RAF Swinderby, RAF Topcliffe where he flew Yorks, Oxfords, Ansons and Wellingtons until he was demobilised in 1949. He subsequently went into farming and joined the Royal Observer Corps first part-time, and eventually progressing into full time role of observer commander retiring at sixty in 1966. Discusses Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh’s visit, Cold war bomb testing and observation roles.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Wales--Anglesey
Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe--Gweru
Zimbabwe--Bulawayo
South Africa--Cape Town
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cheshire
England--Essex
England--Gloucestershire
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Manchester
England--Norfolk
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
South Africa--Mahikeng
South Africa
England--Lancashire
England--Bishop's Stortford
Format
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00:54:12 audio recording
Temporal Coverage
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1945
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
100 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Cornell
demobilisation
Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain (1926 - 2022)
Flying Training School
Harvard
incendiary device
Initial Training Wing
Oxford
pilot
Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021)
RAF Ansty
RAF Bentley Priory
RAF Bircham Newton
RAF Grimsby
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Hendon
RAF Hornchurch
RAF Little Rissington
RAF Lyneham
RAF Oakington
RAF Swinderby
RAF Ternhill
RAF Topcliffe
RAF Valley
recruitment
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/623/8893/APayneTP160422.2.mp3
fc4b01b6764969b85edb5037558eebd1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Payne, Thomas Peter
T P Payne
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Payne, TP
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Two oral history interviews with Flying Officer Peter Payne (b. 1925, 1398674, 199071 Royal Air Force)auto biographies and his log book. He flew as a pilot with 90 and 15 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Peter Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2016-02-04
2016-07-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 21st of April 2016 and I’m in Hemel Hempstead with Tom Payne and we’re giving a second interview here. It’s the 20th.
TP: 22nd.
CB: It is. Oh the 22nd. Sorry.
TP: Tomorrow is St George’s Day.
CB: Ah.
TP: Which should be a national holiday.
CB: Yes. Quite right. And so Tom is going, as you gather, is a sprightly man and he’s going to start off, please, Tom by your earliest recollections and then right through to at least the end of the war. Please.
TP: Well, I was born in Marlowes, Hemel Hempstead, in a cottage which had two bedrooms and the rear bedroom was accessed through my parents’ bedroom so we couldn’t stay out late and come in without them knowing. I was born in 1925, in December and I already had two brothers but one was much older being born before the First World War. I had one sister. My earliest recollections are of the building of the Public House at the end of our row because originally it was one of our cottages but they built a new one behind it and then knocked down the cottages that had formed the pub. I’ve got a photograph of the day that pub was closed or I assume it was. A picture of a group of men sitting outside and one of which was my dad. He was obviously a very very regular visitor to it and it was only three doors from home and he wouldn’t have any problems. The front of, frontage of the pub had a drive in and drive out when they moved the cottage and it had a row of small wooden posts with iron chains linked between them. But these chains weren’t just ordinary linked. They also had spikes on them. And I remember trying to skip over them and falling and one entered my knee which was very painful and taught me a lesson that you’ve got to make sure you’ve got enough height when you’re trying to clear an obstacle. I went to Bury Road School which was about a mile away I suppose. No buses there. Had to walk. My brothers also went there. Although my eldest brother had been to Boxmoor School because of the war but the cooperation between our neighbours we all went to school together. No mums took us. We just had to find our own way. And no real major road to cross because Marlowes whilst it was a through road you just kept to one side, down Bridge Street and along Cotterells and we were there. Quite a happy crowd at school. The headmaster was newly joined to us but he had a crash on his motorbike hitting a cow which put him in hospital for some months so I didn’t get to know him too well. But the result in 1936 we all sat the exam. The 11-plus. Well before I was eleven of course but I passed for the Central School as did two of my mates at school. So in 1936 I was over to Two Waters Central School which, that consisted of four classes which took you through ‘til you were fifteen. It was a happy school. Twenty boys and twenty girls of each year from eleven upwards but unfortunately after a couple of years the secondary modern education started and the new school was built in Crabtree Lane which housed all 11-plus children from the boy’s school. Separate from the girl’s school. The Central School had to be amalgamated in to the secondary modern because the staff had all got jobs at the secondary modern and the headmaster became headmaster of the Crabtree Lane School. That was a Mr Barnard. More of him later because our paths did cross when I joined the air force but still [pause] I stayed at school until I was fifteen whereas most of the boys around me left at fourteen. But the three Central School chaps from Bury Road we stayed on ‘til fifteen and went into local businesses. I joined John Dickinson’s as a junior foreman which was just running around with bits of paper and collecting the output from the girls on the production machines making paper bags. It was quite interesting but it was boring. Unfortunately, the war had started and my cousin, who was living in Dorset as an only child of my mother’s younger sister [pause. Someone enters the room], sorry. Come. My daughter. Come in love.
CB: That’s fine. Do you want to stop?
TP: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
CB: Sorry love. She’s captain of Bermondsey Golf Club.
TP: Oh right.
CB: Ladies captain I mean.
CB: So we were just talking about the fact that you left school and went to Dickinson’s.
TP: Yeah. Yeah. I went to Dickinson’s
CB: And it was a boring job.
TP: Yeah. The foreman of course above me was also an ex-Central School chap. We got on well together. But my cousin who joined the air force immediately pre-war was an observer on Blenheim’s and he was with 21 Squadron but he was not very enamoured with the flying and the dangers and he did write a letter to an old school chum of his saying he realised it was only a matter of time before they got the chop. The losses were very high at that period and unfortunately in June 1940 he was posted as missing presumed killed which was a hell of a shock to everybody. But I didn’t find out until after the war exactly what had happened to him and his body is buried in France with his other two crew members and he was actually flying with 15 Squadron which I joined later. But we didn’t know that at the time because the losses on 21 had been so great they had to amalgamate them altogether. Still flying out of Wyton but that was the way it went. So that summer I did try. I took the bus in to Watford. Put my long trousers on and I went to the recruiting office but the sergeant there said, ‘Come back when you can shave. ’ So that rather upset me but it meant that by 1941 I decided that I would approach the ministry, the Air Ministry direct. And I had a separate appointment sent to me to report to Euston in November 1941. I was still fifteen but they thought I was nearly eighteen and I got away with it. I was put on deferred service. Given an RAF VR badge which I’ve still got and wear it very proudly and then had to just wait for my call up. One of the conditions of being on deferred service was to attend ATC. Now, Mr Barnard was the commanding officer of 1187 Squadron in Hemel Hempstead so I arrived there one evening and he welcomed me with open arms and said he wondered how long it would be before I came in and I said, ‘Well I have been committed to come to you.’ And he said, ‘What do you mean?’ So I gave him the documents that I had to pass over and he read them through and looked at me and he said, ‘You’re not old enough.’ I said, ‘Well you know that. I know that but they don’t,’ and he immediately stood up, came around the desk, shook me by the hand and said, ‘Congratulations. I know you’ll do well.’ And so I joined the ATC as a deferred service airmen. No uniform but I did attend their lectures and started to learn aircraft recognition and Morse code and all the other little bits that go with it but in April ‘42 I received my call up papers to report to ACRC at St John’s Wood. And there, with ninety nine others, we formed a flight or rather a shower of people shuffling along the road at first but the corporal was instilling into us the discipline of marching. Tallest on the right and shortest on the left and everything else to be able to form up and show a reasonable body of men and after five weeks of inoculations and vaccinations and uniform issue and getting bits of uniform that would fit you we felt reasonable as airmen. Unfortunately, we had other jobs to do and one of them was scrubbing the concrete floors of our billet in Hall Road in North London. So I was limping when I went on parade one day and the corporal called me out and made me report sick because I’d got a very large swelling on my knees. And the doctor, the MO, looked at them and said, ‘Are you very religious?’ To which I said, ‘No. ’ So he said, ‘Well you’ve got housemaid’s knee,’ and as a result of that a directive was issued to all the corporals to provide kneeling pads in the future but we still had to scrub the concrete floors. After a couple of days I was back on normal duties and looking forward to a posting but there was a big hold up in front of us. We learned much later that the influx of potential aircrew was greater than they anticipated and the losses at the far end weren’t high enough to compensate for the people going through. So they extended all the courses. They put in another course for us so instead of after five weeks of ACRC instead of three we did five and then we got posted to a village called Ludlow in Shropshire. And we arrived there — all still a hundred of us but the field had a slope on it. It was very wet. It was raining. There was a lorry already parked inside the field and inside were thirteen bell tents from World War One. And we were told to erect them in a row and allocated join up. Eight in a tent leaving the corporal to share with only four others at the end. He took the four biggest blokes so that was reasonable and we ended up later that evening lying on mattresses on top of our ground sheets with our feet to the pole and our heads to the outside. But if you wanted to get up in the night and go and relieve yourself it was a question of trampling all over other bodies to get out. And I was fortunate. I’d got the position near the flap opening so it didn’t affect me all that much. We stayed there several weeks. [pause — pages turning] Yeah. It was about a month and it was now late June and we got our postings through to ITW. Ours came. We were sent to Torquay. To the Toorak Hotel. And this was in one of the side streets of the town but it was quite a pleasant place and we soon sorted ourselves out into the rooms and we had sheets, at long last and comfortable beds to get into. The only trouble was you had to make your bed every morning. Fold the sheets square with the blankets folded underneath and wrapped around and have the kit laid out on the bed so it could be inspected. The inspection was quite severe and discipline was really tough and one had to learn that the corporal wasn’t your mate or friend. He was corporal and ruled the roost. The rest of the staff were quite friendly. Our officer was a golfer by the name of Sandy Lyle I believe. Our PTI was Spur’s goalkeeper Ted Ditchburn. Very friendly fella. He was a corporal but got promoted to sergeant while on the course. We did cross country runs. Wonderful going through these apple orchards. Bright red apples. So obviously they lost a few of them but when we tried to eat them of course they were cider apples so we soon learned that was not the thing to do.
[Recording paused]
Whilst at Torquay we had regular visits. This was from late June until the November of ‘42 and most evenings in the summer the Luftwaffe would pay us visits with Messerschmitt 109s and Fokker Wulf 190s coming in low over the sea out of the sun. They weren’t seen until the last few seconds and the gunners on the cliff had no option but to start firing at them while they were pulling up over the town and a lot of the damage in the town was caused by the shrapnel from the guns as much as the cannon from the Fokker Wulf 190. It was very disturbing. And they also carried small bombs and they hit the girl’s school which, luckily, they were empty. They were on holiday. But tragically in the — later in that stay there they actually hit the Palace Hotel which was used as a RAF hospital and it housed a lot of the Battle of Britain fighters that had been, pilots that had been burned in their aircraft and the losses I don’t think were actually known at the time. It was all kept secret and nobody knew but I’ve been to a reunion down there and met the nursing staff that were on duty at the time. I was on the duty at headquarters where we just had a 303 rifle and three bullets. Or five I think it was in the end. But mainly it was fire picket duty but we never had any incidents. No problems at all. But several of my friends got injured whilst in the town. They were queuing up for the cinema and the High Street got shot up but apart from the cannon on the 190 there was also the pieces of concrete that were thrown around as potholes were made when the bullets hit the ground and scattered into the crowd. And one of my mates was working helping the rescue and he felt a bit draughty himself and he found blood pouring down his leg and he was a casualty of a piece of shrapnel which was something about eight inches long which had penetrated his fleshy part of the top of his leg and with the adrenalin running and helping everybody else he hadn’t noticed he himself had been injured. He had that as a souvenir to carry around with him but he was in hospital for quite a while, while his wound healed up. I can’t remember the chap’s name. There was too many of us. I spent a spell down there. I had breathing problems with the heat. I spent, I think it was three nights in the Palace Hotel myself. They certainly looked after us but as an AC2 I didn’t get any sort of [laughs] additional help. Anyway, I passed all the exams and became an LAC and the pay increased from two and six to three bob a day. So that was alright. And was posted immediately from Torquay to 4 EFTS up at Brough in Yorkshire for twelve hours flying on Tiger Moths. This was in November to early December ‘42 and I went solo before my seventeenth birthday. Or nineteenth according to the RAF. Then of course it was a question of getting Christmas leave which I was very fortunate enough to do and was posted to Heaton Park in Manchester which was a holding unit where hundreds of potential under-training aircrew of all sorts, shapes and sizes were held. A lot of us were fortunate enough to get private billet accommodation where I must admit that the locals were very very kind to us and looked after us well. The main thing about Heaton Park was the weather. I think it rained almost every day except if it didn’t it was snow. And we had a few diversionary postings from there to other departments where we did some training. One of them was to Filey over in Yorkshire where we went on a commando course in January ’43. And to say it was cold would be an understatement. Our billets were the boarding houses along the seafront. Three or four stories high with sash windows and the strength of the wind coming straight from Russia was enough to keep them rattling all night although we managed to solve that problem with stuffing and with newspaper. I don’t know how long they lasted but I’m sure they can’t still be there now so. [laughs] Unless Everest have done a lot of double glazing. They certainly needed it. And back to Heaton Park and eventually we had a posting to say — you’re off. Nobody knew where but we had a train and it went north and we arrived up in Scotland and found that there was a troop ship lying out in Scapa Flow which was to be our home for a few days and we assumed being as we was up in Scotland that it was heading across the Atlantic and we were going to Canada. But it was rough crossing the Irish Sea first of all and none of us got our sea legs and there was all the food floating up and down the tables in trays. Slopping around down there. It was a revolting sight but once we’d settled it wasn’t too bad. Then of course we had an outbreak of Scarlet Fever. Who brought it on board nobody’s sure but there was quite a lot on our deck that were affected. The result was that the ship, which was really the Empress of Japan and had been re-named Empress of Scotland, still had the name Japan across, carved in the letters on the back of course. But we arrived and went in New York. Zigzagging across the Atlantic with everybody that was available would be up on deck scanning the horizon looking for U-boats. Icebergs were another danger and we did see one or two. But we docked in New York and the first thing was that the military came aboard and all those that were in the sick bay on Scarlet Fever were taken off and rushed to hospitals. And we were then marshalled onto trains which no locals were allowed to come near. We stopped once. I think it must have been around Boston or somewhere and some more people were taken off to hospital with Scarlet Fever. And we eventually arrived in Canada. Get into Moncton where we were all put in isolation and the following day we all had to be examined medically with a thing known as a Schick and Dick test which saw whether you were subject to Diphtheria or Scarlet Fever. If any of the inoculations proved positive you were put in close confinement but the rest that were negative got their postings. Having been put in close confinement you were then put on a course of injections and — but eventually posted and I got to Neepawa EFTS. Did my flying there in March, April and early or mid-May. Passed the EFTS ok. No problems. And got posted to SFTS on Oxfords at a place called Swift Current. However, got to Swift Current, had my last injection and within a matter of days I was in hospital with Scarlet Fever. In strict isolation so I lost all my buddies. A lot of them got washed off the course anyway. Come around to the window of the hospital to wave goodbye. And eventually the few that remained got their Wings in July and got on their way back to the UK. I, on the other hand, remained in hospital until, I think it was the end of May. About then. Yeah. It was in May and didn’t finish my course as a pilot until October when I got my Wings and then got shipped back to Moncton. We were only there a couple of weeks before we were on the Mauritania at Halifax and heading back to Liverpool. That was quite, quite a journey. We were allowed to go home for Christmas from Harrogate where we were to be stationed and after Christmas reported. This was now January ‘44. Having been a pilot for three months there was still no news of any postings. You got dotted around the country and sent to various courses. A little bit of refresher flying in Scotland at Perth and it was always back to Harrogate until eventually in May I got a posting to Feltwell which was number 3 Lanc Finishing School but it wasn’t Lancs for me. It was merely to be their airfield controller while the weeks passed by before I could get to OTU. I was there of course for the D-day period which was quite an event because Feltwell had a grass airfield but with Summerfield tracking. The hut at the end of the main runway was below the hump in the middle of the runway so you couldn’t see the full length and D-day plus two or three we were advised that our American friends would be dropping in on us because they’d got enemy aircraft over their bases to the, in the east of England. We had a few B17s come in. We had gooseneck flares so they were all lit up. But then there was an almighty crash in the — over the hill.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Heard it. [?] Couldn’t find out what it was. Sent an erk on his bike to have a look and he come back and said that two Fortresses had locked themselves together and were blocking the rest of the runway. So I sent them off to douse the gooseneck flares while I stood on the end of the runway with a verey pistol firing reds in to the air. Couple still managed to get in. How they missed the crash I don’t know. More luck than judgement or perhaps the idea was they couldn’t fly. They had no instrument flying experience and night-time flying to them was a hazard. But the other two got down. Luckily, we learned there was no — nobody killed in the crash. A few of them got some minor injuries but most of them had leapt out as soon as the aircraft had hit but one had run up the fuselage of the other and chewed it right the way through but all the airmen, aircrew that were in the back of the Boeing must have got out pretty smart and missed it all. Went around the wreckage in daylight and was amazed at the comfort that was in the B17 compared to British aircraft. I’d been inside the Lancs at 3 LFS but to go inside a B17 with all its sort of [capod?] filled padding which was clipped on to the walls everywhere and I did find a couple of nice rectangular sections which came in use much later in life as a cot blanket for my first daughter. [laughs] But the wrecks were soon removed and I finished my spell at Feltwell and headed off to Cambridge to have a month’s refresher flying before going on to Kidlington where we had another month getting used to flying Oxfords and during that period we went back to Feltwell for a week because they had the beam approach training facilities there which we hadn’t got at Kidlington or Cambridge. So I was, felt at home when I got back to Feltwell for that week. And then, out of the blue in September after being back at Kidlington and finishing AFU I got a posting to 26 OTU at Wing. Thirteen months after getting my wings I was at last going to fly Wellingtons. And there of course the first thing you did at Wing was get crewed up and it consisted of all the aircrews except — all the aircrew except flight engineers. Put in a hangar and you sort of wandered around looking to see who looked a reasonable sort of chap and chose your crew. I picked up a bomb aimer who had befriended a Canadian navigator and between us, the three of us, we then found a couple of air gunners and a wireless operator. We had the two gunners picked at OTU although you only used one on a Wellington at a time. But tragically one of the air gunners let us down. Totally out of the blue. He’d come to my wedding in December. All the crew came to the wedding because we all had Christmas leave. But then in January whilst flying on a night cross country he suddenly lost it. Went berserk. And I passed a message to the wireless operator to tell base I was aborting. Coming down below oxygen level in case it was a problem of that and straight back to Wing. We were met at dispersal by an ambulance crew. He was frozen in the turret. They had a job to get the turret open but he was taken away and nobody ever saw him again. I presume he was marked LMF which was a great shame because he was a nice guy but thankfully it had happened at OTU and not at —on an operation. But we soon picked up another gunner. Phil. Quite a chubby fella but he was great. Great company. And we all got posted off to — we spent a couple of weeks at Sturgate in charge of the blanket store. But our posting suddenly came through for North Luffenham in the March of 1945. We spent the next two months flying around in a Lancaster doing cross country’s, bombing raids on the ranges. Some nights we were sent on diversionaries which meant us flying towards the enemy but turning away before we reached them, much to our dismay. And it was quite an interesting time. Loved flying the Lancaster. It was beautiful. A beautiful aeroplane. And all seven of us — we’d picked up the flight engineer by then. He was originally a pilot. He’d finished his course and was offered the chance to re-muster either as a glider pilot or as a flight engineer. The majority I understand choose flight engineers. So they went on a separate engineer’s course and then joined us at the Heavy Con Unit. After finishing Con Unit of course during that period we, VE day had arrived and it was quite interesting the discussions that were had in the big hangar after we did a rehearsal until some bright spark suggested to the CO that if the band played a more recognisable tune it might be more suitable and there was deadly silence and the bandmaster said, ‘Sir. That was the march past of the Royal Air Force.’ [laughs] Again, there was silence and everybody accusing everybody else of not being able to do their job but it was quite funny for a few minutes. After finishing Heavy Con Unit we were all sent on leave but I had a recall. A telegram to report to 90 Squadron at Tuddenham and not being on the telephone or in contact with any others I expected to find my crew when I got to Tuddenham. Unfortunately, when I arrived I went in to the CO’s office and I was introduced to my crew who had just lost their Australian skipper because all Commonwealth aircrew were taken off of flying and that’s how I lost my navigator. So I lost my whole crew. A bit annoyed of course but soon got to know the guys. Did a couple of flights with them. A couple of Baedekers over Germany going down the Ruhr showing the ground staff the bomb damage ostensibly as a exercise for them but in reality it was very political for, to let the Germans, particularly the residents in the Ruhr and Cologne was a special one to let them see what the Lancaster looked like in daylight. And there we were at two thousand feet. Any given time there would be fifty to eighty Lancasters circling Cologne at two thousand feet and it must have caused the kids down below to be terrified. But politically it was obviously a good exercise. And I was only there for the month when the CO suddenly decided that he’d got a brother who was stationed at 15 Squadron at Mildenhall and would I like to swap with him? Well I was only a flight sergeant by then and so I went over to Mildenhall to meet the CO. A Wing commander McFarlane. And when I walked into his office, gave him a salute he looked and he said, he was very surprised, ‘Oh. You’re Payne. Sorry,’ he said, ‘But we only have — we don’t have non-commissioned personnel as captains of our aircraft. So you are hereby commissioned and you have a week’s leave to get your uniform. Thank you very much.’ So I was a pilot officer or so I thought but after a week I turned back, I returned back to Mildenhall and I was accused of being incorrectly dressed because I was a flying officer apparently. Immediate promotion. [laughs] Much to my wife’s surprise. She lost her payment book because officers are paid the wife’s money and as a gentleman you are obviously expected to hand it over. It shook me I tell you but — and also of course at the same time I had been giving my mother a tanner a day which was recommended when we joined the air force so that if anything happened to you she would be able to claim a pension of some sort. But of course when I was commissioned that had to stop as well which was — my mum understood but I don’t think the wife really took it very kindly but she enjoyed the increased money anyway. Then as I say I was a flying officer. Settled in at Mildenhall quite well. We did several trips. Mostly things like going to Italy to bring back British troops on to England. Twenty at a time stuck in the fuselage but you had to, you weren’t allowed to use the automatic pilot because there had been one or two crashes which they had assumed had been caused by automatic pilot failure at low level or two thousand feet or so. You didn’t go very high because the troops would have needed — no heating in the fuselage. We also did, a little earlier on we did a, one of the first things we did was a post mortem on the German radar at Kiel where a few hundred of us in daylight approached Kiel and we were all given heights to fly but I found myself being covered in Window so I throttled back a bit because the cloud, I was just in the base of the cloud. Fortunately, I did the right thing at the right time because there appeared a B17 in front where I’m sure that every crew member except the pilot was shovelling out Window and it was smothering my aircraft and blocking up air intakes and God knows what else. So if we’d have carried on we would have run straight into them so we realised that the danger of collision at night when a thousand planes were over the target or large numbers over the target at any one time. The danger of collision was, must have been very great and we understood from later discussions with various boffins that they had calculated that on those raids up to a third could be lost. So that’s two thousand men could have been lost at night just by friendly action of running in to each other without any enemy action taking place at all. And that’s why they trained so many of us and fortunately we had the back up. Fortunately, the losses weren’t as great as they predicted and they were still high enough. I doubt whether we’ll ever know the numbers that were involved of mid-air collisions with friendly aircraft or aircraft being hit by bombs being dropped from planes flying higher. We know that there were instances but how many? Nobody can tell. Well, my period at Mildenhall finished in ‘45. I was sent on an instructor’s flying course. Lulsgate Bottom at Bristol. My wife was expecting our first child at the time so I had more interest in getting home at weekends than stopping and hanging around Bristol. Fortunately there was a chicken farm quite close to the airfield and I was able to take a couple of dozen eggs home most weekends which were gratefully received by the population at home. Finally I was demobbed. Officially at Bruntingthorpe but I don’t ever remember going there but that is my, supposedly the depot where I was discharged from and there I got into Civvy Street. This was the end of ‘46 and my first child was born in the July of ‘46 so it was a family life and a question of trying to find accommodation because I was living with my parents and eventually the council obliged by providing a three bedroom house which was just in time for our second child two years later.
CB: Ok. We’ll take a pause there.
TP: Yeah. [pause] Housing.
[Recording paused]
CB: We’re just restarting. Talking about the perversities of some of these things but the fact that the Germans were well organised.
TP: Yeah well they obviously had planned. They planned the war. They knew the war was going to come and their reactions were all done in the same manner. They had developed the aircraft and the U-boats and the rockets and everything else. The flying bombs didn’t happen by accident. That had been planned years before and so was the V2s. But our biggest disappointment I think in 1940, as an Englishman was the fact that we had to go through Dunkirk. Evacuate our soldiers when there were a half a million French troops under arms. There were only two hundred thousand German troops attacking but half a million just gave in and left us in the lurch because we had to get out with our backs to the wall. And I met some of the troops that were fighting at the time. Not at Dunkirk but further along the coast and I was fortunate enough for the 51st Highlanders to be over in France when they were having their last reunion a few years ago because I was visiting the grave of my cousin. And there were a few of the men there that were there in 1940 and they were captured by the Germans because they hadn’t any ammunition left. They’d fought to the last bullet virtually and that was it. But they couldn’t be evacuated from the port because the Germans were attacking all the while. So it was very well planned by the Germans. They knew exactly what they were doing all through. And it was only the bravery of the guys on D-day that got them on shore. I mean it must have been a terrible thing for those first bods that were coming over knowing they were walking straight into the face of gunfire which they were totally exposed on the beaches, you know. But I did meet one other soldier in Tring and he was injured. He had a bullet through his fleshy part of his leg on his way up to the coast and because of that the Germans were coming so he lay in a ditch for twelve hours while they all went by him and then headed south. Pinched a bicycle and carried on riding until he got down in to Southern France. He was hoping to get on the — that ship that got blown up as it left Bordeaux or somewhere down there and he met a naval force that was in town blowing up various installations and they picked him up and took him with them and he came back on their destroyer.
CB: This was 1940.
TP: In 1940.
CB: Yeah.
TP: So he was absolutely dead lucky because he was in the right place at the right time to get away.
CB: So what was your perception of the German air war and how they conducted it on Britain?
TP: Well. I think, you know, they [pause] if they’d have carried on the attacks on airfields and destroying those they might have stood a better chance but because they then switched to the cities it was a saviour for us. But we had no real defence. We were down to the last few Hurricanes and Spitfires. And the tragedy was that the coordination of the various fighting groups’ — Fighter Command to my mind they, they weren’t concentrating enough on what they should do. Thinking they could get a high wing together of a thousand fighters. By the time they’d got a thousand fighters half of them were out of fuel and had to come down and land. It was, you know, they hadn’t thought it through.
CB: And here you were in Hemel Hempstead which is between London and Coventry and Birmingham. What did you see of the German air force? Aircraft coming over.
TP: Well I —
CB: Before you joined the RAF. As a youngster I mean.
TP: Well when I was still at school —
CB: Yeah.
TP: I saw a Dornier come over one day. A Dornier come over. The air raid sirens hadn’t gone but I recognised it from aircraft recognition. It was a Dornier. And it dropped its bombs over Nash Mills Way. It was like the day war broke out. On a Sunday. There was a gathering of council officials, the ARP warden, the town clerk’s office and others in Marlowes. They were looking at the stone mason’s yard and were wondering whether to send people over to the Princes Arms area where Edney’s had a place where they were making tarpaulins. Should they bring the tarpaulins and cover up the stone mason’s yard. And when I tried to tell them that if an aircraft came over and was going to bomb anything he wouldn’t bomb a cemetery or a yard he would bomb the railway line or the canal [laughs] And they told me to be off.
CB: Yeah.
TP: That was the sort of mental attitude of the adults of the time.
CB: Yeah.
TP: They had no experience of air war. I hadn’t of course.
CB: No.
TP: But I had the intelligence to know that if you’re up there looking for a target you’re going to hit a railway line or a canal or a junction of some sort rather than bomb what looked like a churchyard or a cemetery.
CB: Yeah. I mean it’s difficult to perceive in a way but in 1939 aircraft had only been around for twenty five years.
TP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: And people’s perception of what they could —
TP: And of course the speeds of the aircraft. We hardly saw a Spitfire or a Hurricane over Hemel Hempstead. We did, as I say, see German bombers. Two or three times and at night time you heard them go over because you could tell by the way they didn’t synchronise their engines. It was a very identifiable feature. We always synchronised our engines with a Lanc you know.
CB: Yeah. Of course. On a Lancaster. Yes
TP: It meant it was a smoother ride and it was quieter but the Germans had this —
CB: Makes more of a clatter.
TP: Well yeah.
CB: A drone was it?
TP: The engines weren’t synchronised.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And they would be fighting against each other. So you could identify the noise immediately. That it was an enemy aircraft.
CB: That’s interesting.
TP: Whether you would hear that in a fighter I doubt it —
CB: No.
TP: Because you had your own noises but certainly from the ground you knew there was enemy aircraft. And of course in the early days without the radar enemy aircraft would be over here and everywhere the sirens would go but nobody would know where the aircraft was.
CB: And near to here for German targets you had Watford, Leavesden for aircraft production and also Hatfield.
TP: Oh yeah.
CB: So to what extent did you — were you aware of that?
TP: Well, I knew of that. I knew that those places were producing but I think generally we didn’t. There was no news in the newspapers and of course there was no television anyway. They’d had to have been shut down. But the general feeling at school when the sirens went everybody went down the shelters and after two or three hours down there as a senior prefect I went up with the night guy. We went up to get the rations of Horlicks tablets and things like that and the all-clear went. [laughs]
CB: So could you just describe the air raid shelters in a civilian context? So in Hemel Hempstead what were the air raid shelters? What were they?
TP: Well the air raid shelters in Hemel Hempstead. There were a few public ones. The ones in Marlowes were opposite where my mother lived and they used to go over there at night apparently when the sirens were on because of the dangers. You could hear the noise and see the lights from London when London was being bombed. I did a stint when I was — before I went in the air force as a fire watcher in Lower Marlowes where it was organised by the fellow that owned the DIY shop. If anybody wanted some DIY he had all his stall of paints and timbers and everything so he obviously wanted protection. So we had an old cottage that we used as a base for fire watching and that was — we did one night on, two nights off sort of thing. Between us there was enough of the shopkeepers to join in but there were very few private residences down from Bridge Street to the arch. There weren’t sufficient privately occupied houses as opposed to all the businesses which lock up.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And most of them went away but we never had any instances in that area. There were some fire bombs dropped the other side of Marlowes somewhere down in [Sewells?] Road area apparently. And of course there were bombs in Nash Mills. We did have, I wasn’t, I wasn’t around then, I was in the air force — we did have some bombs drop in Astley Road where, opposite to the school I used to go to. Infant school. I think one person died in one of the houses. That house had to be totally rebuilt but it was a clear cut bomb. Another, I think it was more like an oil drum landed at the back of the off-licence at the bottom of the street. And others landed in the park. There were craters in Gadebridge Park which were a pretty sight. [laughs]
CB: Well the Germans used land mines didn’t they?
TP: Yeah.
CB: That’s what looked like an oil drum but actually came down by parachute.
TP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But as far as I know the one at the bottom of Astley Road they didn’t find a parachute or perhaps somebody whipped the parachute [laughs] before the forces came. I wasn’t around at that. I was in the forces.
CB: No.
TP: But there was one that landed with the bomb.
CB: Well they were silk so they made good dresses. Nash Mills was where the printing works was it? Of Dickinson’s. John Dickinson’s.
TP: Well John Dickinson’s had got the factories just beyond where they hit a row of houses.
CB: Oh.
TP: And I think two of the houses were destroyed but they were parallel to the canal so whether he was aiming for the canal or whether it was shortfall from the factory you just couldn’t tell.
CB: No.
TP: Because bomb aiming in those days was hit and miss.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. You could —
TP: And it was only area bombing that really could succeed if you []
CB: Yeah. As we are talking about the civilian context here could you describe what was the air raid shelter? What was it? Made especially was it?
TP: Yeah, it was.
CB: And what it was like inside?
TP: Yeah. The public air raid shelter. We didn’t have the private Andersons ones in Hemel. They weren’t issued to Hemel but the one in lower Marlowes at the back of [Tozers?]. I suppose it was about thirty foot long. It was half submerged but well protected and it had benches down each side as far as I recollect. I never spent any time in there. I was in the forces but I know because my mother used to take in evacuees. She had two or three people from London that stayed with us while they found somewhere else to live. She had a couple of, a couple of girls. School age. Teenagers. And then she had one chap who had lost an eye in London. With his son. I think the son played football later on for one of the London teams. Stokes I think his name was. And then she had a family. A couple and their teenage son and they went back to London eventually although the son stayed in Hemel and he lived in St Alban’s Hill.
CB: Right.
TP: Near where Derek’s. Before you get to Derek’s in Lawn Lane itself. Or somewhere near. Eventually.
CB: But the air raid shelter was made of concrete was it? And then covered with earth. How was it made?
TP: Difficult to say. I didn’t see it being constructed.
CB: No.
TP: But it was well protected with earth and everything.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Over the top. Usual shape.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And of course with a door on the side at an angle so there was no blast went through.
CB: Yeah. Changing to your experiences in Canada then. How did you feel about that because you had some spare time as well as study time as it were?
TP: Yes. It was very —
CB: So what were the Canadians Like?
TP: Canadians. They were very friendly. Very friendly. I spent a week in Winnipeg on sick leave. I should have gone to Vancouver. I realise that now but I didn’t then. But I spent a week in Winnipeg and met some friends there. Same as in Neepawa where I did my training because I was a Salvation Army at the time. My religion.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And I visited the Salvation Army homes.
CB: Right.
TP: Of the towns I went to and they were — while I was in Moncton the officer there, we actually visited a local prison to get a, yeah, the band went and I went along with them. I didn’t play an instrument. I was on drums at Hemel. But it was it was interesting talking to the prisoners and they were quite receptive to find that the Brits were there and still fighting, you know. Because as I say it was early ‘43 I got out there and the Americans still hadn’t got involved too deeply in the war even then, you know. They were starting to build up but they had to build the aerodromes first for them and it takes time. But it was a good experience meeting the families. You were nearly always invited out to Sunday tea or something like that, you know because at Moncton you were just killing time. You had nothing to do.
CB: It’s in the middle of nowhere.
TP: Well it was on the eastern seaboard or near the eastern seaboard but it was literally the only thing you could do was go to a cafe and eat. Not having the pubs and things like that.
CB: Quite.
TP: Where you could socialise.
CB: Yeah.
TP: It was a different story, you know.
CB: And in the training how did that work? Did you start early in the morning and go —
TP: Oh yeah. Very often out on the prairie, flying. We started at 6 o’clock and it was interesting while I was at Brough of course on the very early flying. First flying.
CB: Before you went out to Canada.
TP: Before I went out to Canada you had to see —
CB: That’s in Yorkshire. Yeah.
TP: Whether you had any ability to fly.
CB: Yes.
TP: And some people didn’t have and they were wiped out then.
CB: Yeah.
TP: After doing the twelve hours training on Tiger Moths they had taken an aerial photograph of the aerodrome and of course it was Blackburn aircraft were using it as well and whilst it had four gun emplacements there was only one that was in use and of course this showed up on the photograph by the fact that there was no pavement to it, no paths in to it. Snow and everything else had accumulated so instead of taking a coach out to dispersal every morning we had to march around these gunsights and march around them and make them look as though as if they were being used.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Although though they had wooden guns on them.
CB: Oh had they?
TP: Yeah. I don’t think it bothered the enemy because I don’t think they considered Brough was a big enough target but —
CB: No.
TP: Although the Barracuda was being developed by Blackburn at the time which seemed to us quite a formidable aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
TP: You know, but, yeah.
CB: Yes. So just going back to Canada. So you’d start at 6 in the morning. You had flying training but what about the grounds?
TP: Oh then you had other lectures and things.
CB: Yeah. So how did that work?
TP: You went into classrooms and you had sort of an hour and a half, two hours on navigation, on astronomy, on meteorology. Morse code. Aldis lamps, you know.
CB: The weather.
TP: It was all varied. Yeah. Yeah. Meteorology was a very big subject. Of course that was a failing in the early days because the forecasting, you know, was very poor. I mean we had plenty to tell us what was coming in but not what’s over there. It’s passed us but did it go that way or that way. So yeah. It was, it was tough. And very often fog would appear totally unexpectedly, you know. You would come back and find your base covered in fog. You know. It was proper.
CB: In the UK you mean?
TP: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Yeah.
CB: So you had a big contrast between the weather in Canada —
TP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
CB: And the weather here. So what was the weather like in Canada?
TP: Well we started our stuff our first flying at Neepawa there was sort of six foot of snow around the place and the wind would not be dead down the runway and so you would start take-off and you would get above the snow which was piled high on either side where the snow ploughs had been down and the wind would suddenly take you one way or the other and you had to be prepared for it and be clear of the snowbanks otherwise you were whipped in to those. Quite, quite a problem. But the, my first experience of tragedy was the fact that my instructor was instructing with another pupil. I was with the officer. The senior. On a test as luck would have it and we went out. Neepawa had a subsidiary field for practicing precautionary landings. Low level approach and dropping in and somebody had busted a Tiger Moth out there [unclear] before and the rescue truck was out there loading it and my instructor, Sergeant Smith had got this other pupil with him and he took over control and did a beat up on the truck that was being moved and unfortunately, when he pulled up, his tail wheel, not skid tail wheel hit the crane and he went in and the aircraft burst in to flames. Luckily the pupil, the student, got out from the back but the instructor died. And that was a shock, you know. You think if an instructor could do it what chance do you stand? You know.
CB: Yeah.
TP: So you just don’t fool around.
CB: No.
TP: And they gave him a military funeral, you know, but his remains and he went off. I presume and they shipped him back to England. I don’t know.
CB: Oh he was a British instructor was he?
TP: Yeah. He’d just, he’d only just got his Wings a short time before. He’d trained in Canada. Got his wings. He was so good they kept him back as an instructor.
CB: He was a —
TP: From an instructor’s course.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But he still was juvenile enough to —
CB: Yeah.
TP: Try something.
CB: Now what do you understand by the word “creamy?”
TP: Eh?
CB: He was a Creamy. Well, apparently they called these people who — I’ve interviewed a couple. The people —
TP: They creamed them off.
CB: They were so good they creamed them off.
TP: Yeah.
CB: Because they were so good at flying and instructing potentially.
TP: Well they could be good at flying but not good at instructing.
CB: Indeed.
TP: They can’t impart the knowledge.
CB: They called them Creamies.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I never heard that expression actually.
CB: And it’s a term that continued until relatively recent time. Might have —
TP: Didn’t heard it.
CB: No. Ok. How long, how many hours did you do over there? Quite a lot before you got your wings.
TP: A few hundred hours.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I should think in total.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Yeah. They extended the courses. This is what, how everything got put back. Even ITW was extended by a couple of months. So as you obviously gained more knowledge. Which was a good thing.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I mean when you think that my cousin within six weeks or so he was on operations.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And he was even acting sergeant to begin with. Crazy. The gunner was still an LAC at one time, you know. Promotion to —
CB: I suppose you have to say they did learn from their mistakes.
TP: Oh yeah.
CB: With these things.
TP: Well they learned but what happened to them when they were POWs. That’s what caused the hassle because if they captured an LAC he went to work. Whereas if he was a sergeant he was slightly different. If he was an officer it was even different again you know.
CB: Yes. Fast forward to OTU. So how did that work? The crewing up. Tell me about the crewing up.
TP: The crewing up was very interesting. As I say we were all in a hangar and everybody looking for everybody else. And I met the bomb aimer first. Very smart looking fella. Little tache. He was a real ladies man in the end apparently because — funny story but he had already picked this Canadian observer or navigator and so we three got together and we were then looking for two gunners and the wireless operator. And they all sort of gelled. You met people and had a chat with them. ‘Where do you come from?’ ‘What are you doing here?’ And the bomb aimer came from London so he found, eventually he found the wireless operator who lived quite near to him in London sort of thing. So they thought they’d got a something that anchored them together.
CB: Yeah. Something in common.
TP: It was quite interesting but yeah, Reg was quite a fella. He had a job writing for many of the chaps in the other crews. He could write a “Dear Rosie,” letter sort of thing. [laughs]
CB: Yes. The antidote to “Dear John. ’
TP: Yeah. [laughs] He did quite well at that apparently, you know.
CB: Yes.
TP: Truly grateful was one of his favourite expressions. [laughs] They’ve all passed away unfortunately.
CB: Yes.
TP: Except his widow is still alive.
CB: But that’s an interesting point in a way. In a more serious vein. One of the people I interviewed talked about his CO giving up flying on operations because the lady who he proposed to said, ‘I’ll only marry you if you give up operations,’ because he’d done a tour already. Because the three previous fiances she’d had had all been killed. So what extent did women — the WAAFs we’re talking about?
TP: Well I was already married.
CB: Yes. But —
TP: I married my childhood sweetheart.
CB: Yes. Quite right.
TP: She’s up there.
CB: Yeah. Smashing. But you saw this. You observed this did you?
TP: Oh I see. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: A sequence of these girls, these WAAFs having relations.
TP: Yeah. Yeah. Well as I say my bomb aimer — Reg. He had. He had a girl. She was, I think she was older than him. [unclear] he used to call her and I think she was something to do with fashion or film or something like that but my wife and I thought, no, he won’t marry her, you know. When we got an invite to his wedding it was a totally different. It was an ATS girl he married.
CB: Oh was it really.
TP: And she was a cracker. She was lovely was Jean.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
TP: Yeah.
CB: You mentioned your own wedding which was in ‘44 when you got back from Canada. Wasn’t it? Was it?
TP: I got back from Canada in ’43.
CB: Oh ’43.
TP: I was home a year.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
TP: And got engaged when I came back.
CB: Oh that was it. Right.
TP: It took a year before I married.
CB: Yeah but —
TP: Her dad was, ‘No. No. You wait my lad.’ [laughs] But she wanted to get married and I said no. I didn’t want to get married at the time.
CB: No.
TP: I said, ‘Well what if something happens to me?’ And she said, ‘Well at least I would have part of that.’
CB: Yeah.
TP: So we got married. Come back from Canada in ‘43. Got married in December ‘44. And all of the crew came to the wedding.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Including the air gunner who went berserk.
CB: Oh he did as well did he? Yeah. He — he’s the one who’d gone.
TP: Yeah. Don’t know what happened to him.
CB: Yeah. Earlier that was.
TP: That was after my wedding.
CB: Oh after the wedding.
TP: Yeah.
CB: Right.
TP: That was January ‘45 when we were finishing at OTU.
CB: Oh I see. That was when he —
TP: On a night cross country.
CB: Yes.
TP: And he just lost it altogether.
CB: Right.
TP: And our worry was he’d start firing guns and draw attention to us which you don’t want when you’re on a diversionary and things like that so you tried to keep as quiet as possible. And you didn’t know whether he was suffering from lack of oxygen because you just couldn’t go to the turret. Couldn’t get into the turret to see him.
CB: So what happened to him?
TP: I’ve no idea.
CB: No.
TP: As I say I passed a note. Didn’t want to let him know. I scribbled a note to the wireless operator, ‘Contact base. We’re returning and tell them briefly why. ’
CB: Yeah.
TP: ‘Problem with rear gunner.’
CB: And what did they do then? The aircraft landed.
TP: Well.
CB: So how were you met? Or did you wait? All get out?
TP: No. We went to dispersal as usual. They put us in dispersal and an ambulance was waiting in dispersal and the ground crew — as I say we had to force open the rear turret in the end because it was iced up as well. Although I’d been flying below, it was wintertime obviously. Weather was pretty chilly. But it gets very cold in the back of a Wellington and he just couldn’t take it. He was still screaming, you know.
CB: Oh. Was he really?
TP: Yeah. He just lost it altogether. Why? We never heard because nobody knew because nobody ever says.
CB: No.
TP: Whether it started with lack of oxygen. It could well have been you see.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But we’ve no means to knowing.
CB: So then the new air gunner comes. Rear gunner comes.
TP: Oh no. He wasn’t the rear gunner.
CB: Oh he wasn’t.
TP: No. Eddie was my rear gunner.
CB: Right.
TP: He was a lorry driver from Worcester.
CB: Oh right.
TP: Eddie was — he was great fun he was.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But he — you know. He was the real rear gunner. It was the mid-upper gunner who was in the rear gun, rear turret and didn’t like it.
CB: So then you go to the Heavy Conversion Unit at North Luffenham. 1653. That’s when you get the flight engineer.
TP: Yeah.
CB: How did he come aboard?
TP: Well they just —
CB: Did you select him or he was allocated or what?
TP: Well I think from memory all of us crews went into the hangar.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And there was probably ten crews went on the course — conversion. And there were ten flight engineers lined up.
CB: Literally.
TP: And then it was take your pick sort of thing.
CB: So you did your selection did you?
TP: I think we did as a team. Yeah.
CB: You personally or the whole team came over.
TP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. And what was he like?
TP: He was a good lad. He was a butcher from Devizes.
CB: Oh.
TP: Married but no children. And, yes, he was he was very pleasant but as I say he’d been, he’d been through pilot training. Got his pilots wings and then they said sorry there are no more vacancies for pilots. You’ve got a choice. You can be a glider pilot for troop carrying which is a one way ticket.
CB: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.
TP: Or you can be a flight engineer.
CB: Yeah. So in that circumstance did he keep his flying — his pilot’s wings?
TP: Oh he had his pilot’s wings.
CB: Yes. Because after the war I interviewed somebody — after the war they took them away and you wore the brevet of your specialty.
TP: Oh. I don’t know.
CB: No. But anyway in the war. Yeah.
TP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: So there were two pilots on the Lancaster.
TP: Yeah. In effect. Yeah.
CB: In effect.
TP: Yeah. Yeah. Well not on every one but you know —
CB: No. No. No. No.
TP: Yeah.
CB: I mean in your circumstance.
TP: But when I went to 90 squadron. He was a flight engineer. He wasn’t a pilot.
CB: Of course. No. Absolutely.
TP: He was a flight engineer.
CB: Yeah. Can I just go on to another point you mentioned on a previous occasion the Stabilised Auto Bomb Sight. Could you explain what that was and how it was different from the one you had before.
TP: Well, this was, this was the bomb sight used by 617.
CB: Right.
TP: It was much easier than the Norton which had, I think, fifty odd adjustments to make it before it was set but the SABS had, instead of the ordinary, the old Mark IX just had wires to track down and you set the thing up and got the pilot to, ‘Left. Left,’ or, ‘Right. Right,’ or, ‘Steady. ’ And if he said, ‘Steady,’ Eddie would say, ‘Yeah. What do you want?’ [laughs] You know, the SABS had like a glass prism with a lighted sword and the cross point of the hilt was for the target and you tracked, tracked it down. Much shorter than the long strings but the sword looked as if it was on the ground. It was in this glass prism but it was where it was projected. It looked like it was travelling on the ground so you could —
CB: So were all the Lancasters being refitted with that?
TP: They were being refitted with them but they only had them on the specialist units at the time.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And they used them — I don’t know whether you saw the article there, there was an article in Flight or Aeroplane?]. You can probably still read it now where after the war —
CB: Yeah.
TP: Lancs went over to America and 15 Squadron was amongst them but we got the proverbial brick in a bucket whereas the Americans were half a mile away.
CB: Even though they claimed to be precision bombers.
TP: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: With the benefit of daylight.
TP: Yeah.
CB: We’ve effectively come to the point where you got to the squadron just as the war finished. So you didn’t get in any operations.
TP: No operations at all.
CB: Right.
TP: No.
CB: So the war finished. Then what?
TP: Well —
CB: We’re talking about 8th of May 1945.
TP: Yeah.
CB: The war ends.
TP: And in June I was in a squadron.
CB: Yeah.
TP: 90 squadron. I’d been home on leave. I’d had a telegram — report to Tuddenham and I naturally thought that’s the whole crew.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I get to Tuddenham and I find I’m on my own.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And —
CB: Why was that?
TP: And I was introduced, introduced to a completely new crew.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Who’d had an Australian skipper and he’d been subbed off back home. Taken off of flying as all Commonwealth aircrew were. So I took over the whole crew. Didn’t know a soul. Took a little while to get used to them of course, you know. Amongst the crew one of the guys was a flying officer already. And that’s how I think the air force changed their attitude to the fact that you can’t have captains of aircraft with lower rank than members of their crew.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But it didn’t affect 90 Squadron. They still hadn’t thought of that. I was a flight sergeant and he was a flying officer. I think he was a bomb aimer. I’m not too sure. Could have been the navigator but the rest were sergeants. They’d done, I think they’d done six food drops or something like that. They hadn’t done anything serious —
CB: This was Operation Manna.
TP: Operation yeah. Because they’d only been on the squadron for a few weeks anyway.
CB: Right.
TP: They were only that little distance ahead but sufficient to have got —
CB: Ahead of you.
TP: Yeah. And it was, we did the Kiel operation. Operation Post Mortem where we were checking the radar. And I think I did one or two Baedekers taking ground staff over Germany when the CO said, ‘I’ve got a brother at Mildenhall. Would you swap with him?’ And [laughs] you know I mean —
CB: With the whole crew.
TP: The whole crew. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. So he moved his whole plane across.
TP: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: In exchange for yours.
TP: Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TP: As I say I went over there and the CO was McFarlane. He’s still alive I think but he’s got dementia problems in Australia.
CB: Right.
TP: He was surprised to see that I was only a flight sergeant because as he said, ‘All the captains of our aircraft are officers. ’ You know. ‘We don’t have non-commissioned officers. ’ So that’s how I got commissioned. Completely out of the blue but that’s the way it went.
CB: As a pilot officer.
TP: You did as you were told.
CB: Of course.
TP: You went as you were told.
CB: Yeah.
TP: You had no say in it.
CB: No.
TP: You very often thought that there was a little man manipulating. Oh somebody lives in London so we’ll send him to Glasgow. Or that Scot can go down to Cornwall.
CB: Yes.
TP: It happened you know.
CB: It happened to my father. So you became to be a flying officer. A pilot officer. But it didn’t last.
TP: No. I got back to — after a week I went to Simpsons and you know and got my, got kitted out and got told, ‘You’re incorrectly dressed. You’re a flying officer. ’ [laughs] You know.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Crazy.
CB: Had to have it all done.
TP: Yeah.
CB: So what did you do from then on?
TP: Well. I was going to be a school teacher.
CB: No. No. Excuse me just a mo. In the RAF.
TP: Oh in the RAF.
CB: ‘Cause we hadn’t got to —
TP: Yeah.
CB: So you became a flying officer.
TP: Became a flying officer.
CB: You keep flying? Doing what?
TP: I kept flying on Lancasters — doing — went to Italy to bring British troops home.
CB: Yeah.
TP: We did several Baedekers down the Ruhr.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Several — a few other post mortems.
CB: Can we just describe Baedekers? So Baedeker is essentially picking up on the German tour guides.
TP: Well it was called Baedecker but it was you did a trip to the Ruhr.
CB: Yeah.
TP: You went, you know, down to Essen, Cologne, Dortmund. Looked at the canals and things like that. All at two thousand or so and so feet in broad daylight and there were swarms of you, you know and it must have —
CB: Frightened them.
TP: Let the Germans know.
CB: Yeah.
TP: That there was an air force above them.
CB: Yeah. And this was what it had been.
TP: It was more a political gesture although it was sold as showing the ground staff.
CB: What had happened?
TP: What it was. And I had one of the first Lancasters converted to take female passengers.
CB: Right.
TP: It had a curtain around the elsan. [laughs]
CB: [laughs] Right.
TP: But you didn’t take air gunners. I think all we had then was navigator, a flight engineer, wireless op and engineer. Yeah. Navigator. Flight engineer. Not even a bomb aimer. No.
CB: No.
TP: Because you weren’t going to be dropping anything [laughs] But —
CB: And they sat in those stations and then rotated did they?
TP: They sat. Yeah. One would be in the nose in the front turret. One would be in the mid-upper turret, one in the rear. Of course you didn’t have any extra windows so —
CB: No.
TP: They had to be either in the cockpit or in the positions to see. And —
CB: How many people did you take at a time?
TP: Three or five. It wasn’t very many.
CB: No.
TP: Surprisingly, you know. I thought we would take more people. It’s obviously so as to let them have a good look.
CB: But also the ulterior motive was —
TP: Yeah.
CB: Making Germans aware of what was going on.
TP: Aware. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
TP: That’s all it was done for.
CB: Yeah.
TP: And we did over the dams and that’s another thing. On the dams raid, you know, Gibson came out to Canada in ‘43.
CB: Oh you saw him.
TP: Gave us a lecture and told us all about it. But he couldn’t explain or he wouldn’t explain why there was no follow-up. It needn’t have been low level things like he did. I mean it could have been high level stuff with delayed action bombs. I mean they let them rebuild that. It wasn’t in full use for several years because it wouldn’t have the pressure until it had all settled.
CB: Oh.
TP: But it would have delayed the building.
CB: Yeah.
TP: Just with one or two bombs every week or so.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
TP: I’m sure they thought of it but whether they were in hand with Krupps to say we won’t do any [laughs]
CB: Well they wanted — yeah.
TP: After the war you wanted [back?] production and so — yeah. It’s weird isn’t it? When you think of it.
CB: So —
TP: It would have been the- easiest thing in the world.
CB: Yeah. Absolutely. Where — so after doing a bit of that when did you actually leave?
TP: I think it was November or December.
CB: Forty — ?
TP: ‘46
CB: ‘46. Ok. Right. So what did you?
TP: They didn’t release, you see they learned their lesson from the First World War.
CB: Right.
TP: When they released everybody too soon and altogether. It swamped the country. Couldn’t find jobs. We had a lot of problems. And I think that they thought trickle it out.
CB: Yeah.
TP: But of course most of us as youngsters had gone virtually straight from school so we had no job to go back to or it was a very junior job which wouldn’t have been sufficient after four or five years in the forces, you know.
CB: So what did you do?
TP: Well as I say I got accepted — two things. I first of all got accepted by BEA for training as an airline pilot. But after discussions with my wife [laughs] in those days Paris would have been an overnight stop. And with the dolly birds as usherettes on the aeroplanes she said, ‘No way am I going to let you,’ [laughs] which I suppose made sense you know.
CB: Right.
TP: So I gave up that with BEA. But I did carry on for the strategic and there was a teaching college at [Ashridge?] or there was in those days but you couldn’t get there until you’d been selected for a college anywhere in the country and eventually, after eighteen months, I got a college up in Newcastle upon Tyne. Well, how could I go up there and have a home when I’d got a family in Hemel? No way could we all move up there.
CB: No.
TP: So then you could apply to go to Ashridge but then there was a three year waiting list at [Ashridge]. It was just impossible. So I’d done six months as a bus conductor while I was waiting. And a fellow in Hemel who ran a confectionary shop — I went in and helped him in the shop and made his ice creams and things like that. Then the new town developed and I went up. I was the first male to be employed in a new town factory. I went into engineering. I hadn’t had any engineering experience but I went in as a storekeeper originally but they realised I got a bit more intelligence than what most of the people working for them had and so I ended up I was there eleven years. I became their office manager and ran the place and then I got poached by a firm in London and joined them. Part of the [Ager?] group. And —
CB: What were you doing there?
TP: Machine tools. They were selling second hand but buying new machines from the continent and selling them to distributors in England and that’s when I came in. And I was made a director and we were well away and then after twenty two years or more of that I decided it was time to quit. I was asked to look after the interests of one of the companies for a couple of years in Spain to see what they could do. And so I virtually went into retirement and just worked from home with this guy in Spain. But I don’t regret it, you know. It was a —
CB: At what age did you retire?
TP: I think it was ’86 so I would have been —
CB: So - but your full time work when you gave up working as a director.
TP: Oh when I gave up full time work was — sixty one, about ‘83 or something like that. 1983.
CB: How old were you then?
TP: I was sixty.
CB: Sixty.
TP: Roughly. Because I was born in ’25.
CB: Yeah.
TP: So there you go. Yeah.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I was fifty eight. But —and I spent the last few years helping this guy organise in Spain.
CB: What was he doing?
TP: Selling machine tools.
CB: Oh he was. In Spain.
TP: No. In England.
CB: Oh in England.
TP: You know, anywhere. I sold a few in Europe and beyond and made a comfortable living.
CB: Yeah.
TP: I wasn’t pushed. Didn’t want the hassle.
CB: No.
TP: And I certainly couldn’t bear it today with everybody got the mobile phones and GPS, you know.
CB: Yeah. Nightmare.
TP: Yeah. I ran — when I was working for the firm in London and was a director I also ran their service department.
CB: Oh yeah.
TP: Had five or six service engineers you’ve got to keep tabs on all the while. Well it’s easier now than what it was then of course but in those days if you know send an engineer into Wales and they’d alter all the signposts around and that [laughs] They didn’t want the English in.
CB: No. No. Right. What would you say was the most memorable experience you had in the war?
TP: First solo. That is something which — you’re free.
CB: Yeah.
TP: You’re on your own.
CB: Achievement.
TP: Achievement. Yeah. Yeah.
CB: How many hours? Do you remember?
TP: What?
CB: How many hours had you done to get to solo?
TP: Ten or eleven. Something like that. You only had twelve hours. About that but if you went solo you got extra time EFTS.
CB: Right.
TP: They took that into consideration. But I still remember the guy — he was the pilot of Blackburn Botha.
CB: Yes.
TP: That took me for my flying test.
CB: Oh was it?
TP: And he was a big bloke. Oh he must have been about eighteen stone.
CB: In a Tiger Moth.
TP: In a Tiger Moth.
CB: Crikey.
TP: ‘Don’t forget laddie. Without me being there you’re going to go up. ’
CB: Oh yes. On your own.
TP: I mean Brough airfield had got a — it was sort of almost below sea level.
CB: Oh right.
TP: They’ve got a dyke all the way around it. On the estuary. And you’ve got to clear. So with him in the front you cleared it but without him in the front you were —
CB: Amazing.
TP: You were up to a thousand feet before you reached the front perimeter.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Well Tom it’s been really interesting. Thank you very much indeed.
TP: Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Thomas Peter Payne. Two
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-22
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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APayneTP160422
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Format
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01:35:11 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Tom joined the Air Training Corps as a deferred service airman even though he was under-age. In April 1942 he received his call up papers to report to the Air Crew Reception Centre at St John’s Wood before being posted to Ludlow. He then went to the Initial Training Wing in Torquay. Tom was posted to No. 4 Elementary Flying Training School at RAF Brough on Tiger Moths, and RAF Heaton Park in Manchester. Tom then went to Moncton, Canada, and the Neepawa Elementary Flying Training School, followed by a Service Flying Training School at Swift Current on Oxfords. Guy Gibson gave a lecture about the Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943). After being hospitalised with scarlet fever, Tom eventually returned to the UK.
Harrogate and refresher training in Perth followed. Tom was posted to No. 3 Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Feltwell where two B-17 crashed. He went to RAF Kidlington and, after finishing at the Advanced Flying Unit, Tom was posted to 26 Operational Training Unit at RAF Wing to fly Wellingtons where he crewed up. In March 1945 he was posted to RAF North Luffenham flying Lancasters. Tom then had to report to 90 Squadron at RAF RAF Tuddenham and joined a different crew. He undertook a few Cooks’ tours for ground crew to the Ruhr, and went to 15 Squadron at RAF Mildenhall where he became flying officer. He brought back some British troops from Italy and did Operation Post Mortem, including a German radar at Kiel. With a few hundred aircraft, there was a significant danger of collision.
Tom finished at an instructors’ flying course at RAF Lulsgate Bottom and was demobilised at the end of 1946.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1943
1944
1945
1946
1942-04
1943-05-16
1943-05-17
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Devon
England--Manchester
England--Norfolk
England--Rutland
England--Suffolk
Germany
Germany--Kiel
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Italy
15 Squadron
1653 HCU
26 OTU
90 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
Cook’s tour
crash
crewing up
Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943)
Flying Training School
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
love and romance
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
promotion
RAF Brough
RAF Feltwell
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Mildenhall
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Torquay
RAF Tuddenham
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/631/8901/PQuineJW1603.2.jpg
d8bf456c899eddf94849e34a0fb71c7b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/631/8901/AQuineJW160805.2.mp3
150ac30c9c6d3baa4f6bacf9b4d9923b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Quine, John Wakeford
J W Quine
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Quine, JW
Description
An account of the resource
Seven Items. Collection concerns Pilot officer John Wakeford Quine (b. 1923, 1576065, 185297 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 170 and 582 Squadrons. The collection consists of his logbook, official documents, a course photograph and an oral history interview. also includes a sub-collection of a photograph album of his time training in the United States as well as some target photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Quine and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1945
1946
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Friday the 5th of August 2016. I’m in Lickey with John Quine who was a pilot and he’s going to tell us all about his life and times particularly in the RAF. So what are your earliest recollections of life, John?
JQ: Well my very earliest recollection in life is living in Wales in Penarth. My father was a civil servant and he was working in Cardiff, if I remember rightly and my grandparents were living in Penarth where [pause] where my grandfather had a printing company which was in Tiger Bay. It was only a small company but apparently quite successful. In those days I remember seeing the odd aircraft go across the sky and everybody looked at it because there weren’t many there and they were little bigger than the average light aircraft of these days. Usually with two wings but sometimes one would say, ‘Look, there’s a monoplane.’ And then I remember seeing an airship on a couple of times. It would either be the R100 or the 101, I can’t remember now. Or it could have been both. And they looked absolutely huge in the sky. They weren’t, obviously but seeing a lump like that in the sky was most unusual. At an early age my father interested me in the Schneider Trophy. I missed the first one but the second one I got sort of got interested, and I listened to the commentary on the radio where of course history tells us that we, we won and on the third year we won again and we had won the first one so that gave us the Schneider Trophy permanently and the Schneider Trophy being a race for seaplanes which we won it was a sort of a basis for the Spitfire when Mitchell came to design it. So at that early age I was interested in flying and I used to have model planes which I used to fly around in my hand making the appropriate noises and whatnot as a kid of about five and later on I went on to the extremely technical one of a rubber band being used as a propellant. So that’s how my interest in planes started. And so it went on. I was, remained interested in planes. I used to see Alan Cobham and his air circus. By now we’d moved to Lickey near Birmingham and Alan Cobham used to come once a year to the aerodrome which was at the Austin motor works. The aerodrome now has gone and so has the Austin motor works for that matter but I used to be able to see them doing all the stunts from the house where we lived at the time. I did, on one occasion, go and actually view the circus on, on the aerodrome itself but I didn’t have a flight because in those days it was, if I remember rightly, five shillings for a quick trip and five shillings was quite a lot of money in those days. I well remember one trick which, wing walking and this really was wing walking because they got an aeroplane, something like a Tiger Moth, might have been a Tiger Moth and the chap got out of the seat that he was in, two in the aircraft of course, he got out of the seat and walked around the outside of the aircraft, got on to the wing and walked up and down a bit and waved to the crowd and then he got underneath the underneath wing and sat on the axle that held the landing wheels and they landed the aircraft with him sitting there and I think an extremely dangerous thing to do and certainly wouldn’t be allowed today. So later on when the war started I did a short period in the, in the Home Guard and then I volunteered for, to join the air force. Having decided to volunteer I was walking down a road in Nottingham, my father now having been moved to Nottingham because of the war and I went in and saw the recruiting sergeant and he said, ‘Well what do you want to do in the air force?’ And I said, ‘Well, I think I’d like to be a mechanic.’ I had thought at that time that it, when I came out of the air force it could be useful. Never dreaming that we might of course, lose the war at the time but he said well you, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t, now I’m overrunning the story a bit. Yeah. I said, ‘Right. Well I’ll go away and think about it. I’ll come back next week,’ which I did. During the week I thought well if I’m going into the air force I might as well be a pilot. So I went back and I said, ‘I’ve changed my mind. I’d like to be a pilot.’ And the recruiting sergeant said, ‘You wouldn’t be any good as a pilot.’ And I said, ‘Why not?’ And he said, ‘You didn’t have a secondary school education.’ Secondary schools in those days were, you know almost equal to a grammar school and I said, ‘Well, what makes you think I haven’t had a secondary school education?’ He said, ‘Well have you.’ And I said, ‘Yes. I have. I went to Bromsgrove County High School.’ So he said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘. Well, alright, well I’ll put you forward.’ So I didn’t hear anything for three weeks or so as far as I remember and then I was called again and I had to go for an RAF interview and a test which I found extremely easy at the time and went away again and the next thing I knew was I had my discharge papers so I queried this why I’d been discharged when I hadn’t even been in and they said, ‘You’re in a reserved occupation,’ which was quite ridiculous because it wasn’t so very long since I left school but I was working at the Brush Electrical Company in Loughborough and so, anyway they didn’t have any objection to my going. Probably, probably glad I did [laughs] So in the end the matter was resolved and I was taken back into the air force with a different number and so I got in. Now, the sequel to that story is that after I’d been in the air force and got trained and had pilot’s wings and was an officer I was walking down the same road in Nottingham and I thought, I wonder if that recruiting sergeant is still in the recruiting office so I went in and he was. So he still being a sergeant and me an officer he of course jumped to his feet and saluted and I kept him going for about five minutes and then, then I told him and we both had a laugh together.
[machine paused]
CB: Ok.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Right.
JQ: So having joined the RAF I went to St Johns Wood and the first place I went to was Lord’s Cricket Ground where we had an FFI and I’ve, I’ve had many a laugh with people telling them that I, I’ve been in the famous long room in the pavilion with my trousers down and they say, ‘How on earth did you manage that?’ But that was the reason. Then I went to ITW at Scarborough for a bit. I was quite amazed at the fact that there was quite a few people there that couldn’t swim because that was one of the things that happened there that if you couldn’t swim they taught you to swim there in the local baths and then from there we went out to Carlisle for ten hours attitude training on Tiger Moths and the instructor made a big mistake with me because after I’d been flying for about five hours he said, ‘Oh you’re quite a natural. If you go on like this, in another couple of hours you’ll solo.’ And we weren’t really required to solo there. It was just an attitude test. Well of course having told me that of course I went right off but I did actually solo after nine hours and so that was quite, quite a boost for me and then after a short time in Manchester at Heaton Park we were sent off to Canada in the Andes ship that had been a cruise liner which had been taken over as a troop ship and when we got to Canada we went to Moncton. It was Christmas Day I remember. We got there. We didn’t actually have our Christmas dinner and whatnot until a fortnight later. But then they had us all in a hangar and separated us out and about ninety percent of the people went to Canada but some of us were sent to America. To various places in America but we went to Oklahoma. When we got there they kitted us out with American uniforms which was a sort of summery uniform because it was quite hot at the time but we were, we had our own hats which we wore and our own insignia on the arm but apart from that it was more or less like a summer dress, and we were there for about six months doing ordinary, learning to fly and aerobatics and all that sort of thing and it was on one of these flights that was in a Harvard at the time which was the more advanced trainer that we used and I met, I had, I made a pal of a chap who lived in Redditch which wasn’t very from where I lived at home and we went on a cross country. We were sent on a cross country and we got lost or partly lost. Anyway, we weren’t quite sure where we were and I spotted this town so I thought, and there was a railway there and I thought I wonder if they’ve got the station name written up so I thought I’d go down and have a look and I went down. They hadn’t got the name on the station but they had got it written around a water tower so we knew exactly where we were then. Now the sequel to that story is that when the war had finished with Germany we were sent out to do what we called Cooks Tours over the, over the Germany, over Germany and we took ground crew with us and showed them what they had helped to do and coming back on, from one of these things on a very hot day and flying at about two hundred feet which we were allowed to do everybody was, it was, it was a bit boring and we were, and I think the bomb aimer was getting a bit bored with his life so he, and so was, so was the navigator and so the navigator said, ‘Would you mind skip if I come out and have a look around?’ And I said, ‘No you can’t do that because we shan’t know where we are if you,’ And the bomb aimer said, ‘Well, I’ll map read.’ So I said, ‘Alright then. Well the navigator can come out.’ So he came out and we flew happily along for about another half hour and it was all quiet and so forth apart from the noise of the engines of course and I said to, ‘Where are we Jimmy?’ Jimmy being the bomb aimer. No reply. And so I asked him again. Still no reply. So I said to the engineer, ‘Have a look down and see what’s happened to Jimmy,’ and Jimmy was fast asleep. So we then didn’t know where we were so I thought, right. So I saw this town. I thought I wonder whether they’ve got the name written around a water tower and they had so we were able to use that. So that was fine.
[pause]
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo.
[machine paused]
CB: So when you were in the States were they military or civilian instructors?
JQ: Oh civilians.
CB: Ok. What sort of people?
JQ: Young, youngish chaps. Quite good flyers they were but some of the seniors were, you know, sort, sort of bosses over them but none of them were that old.
CB: And they hadn’t been called up for the American military and were flying training you.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: And still civilians.
JQ: Yeah. I don’t know how old they were.
CB: Well that’s ok.
JQ: Yeah. Just let me find myself again.
CB: Ok. The intriguing thing here John is that you’re being trained in America by civilians with the war having started and you’re not being trained in Canada so how did they treat you and what were the conditions like?
JQ: Well, we were, we were extremely surprised actually because if you take the food for instance. Here we were coming from a very strictly rationed country to one who although they said they were rationed was not really rationed by our standards at all and the bread was white for a start. Our bread was anything but white and there was plenty of this and plenty of that and the natives were extremely friendly, you did find the odd one but what used to annoy us although I can’t think now why it did annoy us but they used to call us limeys, the people that annoyed us. But we called them yanks so, you know, tit for tat really but most people didn’t call us limeys and they were extremely friendly, extremely hospitable and the girls were very hospitable and I remember on the first night we were a bit staggered because we’d hardly arrived and we were invited to, to a roller skating party which was quite something really. Fortunately, I could roller skate so I wasn’t too bad at that and many of the students, us that is, formed relationships with the girls that lasted for years. Sometimes some married them but I’m not sure how many but certainly there were, friendships were made and I couldn’t praise them too highly really. People would say, ‘How did you find them?’ And I’ve always said they were absolutely magnificent to us. They couldn’t have been better, Hospitable to the point of being over generous.
CB: How many of you were there on each course?
JQ: Oh now that’s difficult. I would have guessed at about fifty but I am guessing now and from memory so -
CB: And so you were in American uniform but with British insignia.
JQ: That’s right.
CB: And you had a structure with some, there was an officer, an RAF officer running it was there or what?
JQ: Yes the RAF officer was the chief of the whole lot. The CO and the ground instructors were RAF and British but the flying was done because we were at the Spartan School of Aeronautics in America and other schools were similar and I presumed that they were instructors who were instructing at the school before we arrived. Of course nobody else was there of course at the time other than RAF people except a sprinkling and I do mean a sprinkling of about six, something like that, of Americans. One of the things that did slightly annoy us, not too much really but the Americans went through exactly the same training as we did and they were awarded with the American flying badge and the RAF flying badge and we were not awarded the American flying badge. We just got the RAF one and we expected to get them both but we didn’t get them. I think on one of the things that I’ve got they do say that certain courses did get them both but whether that’s true or they just said it I don’t, I’ve no idea.
CB: So how many hours would you have done when you finished there after six months, to get your wings?
JQ: Now that’s, I shall have to have notice of that.
CB: Yeah. Well it doesn’t matter. So you’ve got your wings -
JQ: Yeah.
CB: And then -
JQ: Well we got our wings. Well in getting those wings we, at one point we’d done advanced training and we were halfway through that and they split us in to two then. They assessed people as being fighter pilots or bomber pilots and fighter pilots went on to air to ground gunnery and the bomber pilots did something else. I’m not sure what they did but presumably bombing but I’m not sure. I was put on the fighter pilots lot.
CB: Oh.
JQ: But when I got back to England they didn’t want any fighter pilots so I automatically went on to bombers.
CB: Right.
JQ: We had an aside on this one is that we had, we did have reunions after the war and I went on one and it involved us doing an internal flight. We went into Dallas, flew into Dallas from Britain and then from there we’d got to go fly to Tulsa. I think I’m right and from there we got a ground thing to Oklahoma. I think that’s the way it worked. Anyway, you had to do this internal flight, wherever it was and I noticed while we were waiting to board the aircraft, a civilian aircraft, I noticed the pilot go around the back of the desk and disappear and I thought, I wondered why has he gone around there? So I sort of wandered around while we were waiting for boarding and he was there coming out of a little sort of cubby hole thing and I said, ‘What are you doing around here?’ And he said, ‘Oh I’m just checking up on the weather,’ he said, ‘We’ve got a computer in here, comes out on the weather,’ he said. ‘I don’t know why I’m doing it here actually,’ he said, ‘We get it out on the aircraft anyway but,’ he said, ‘I thought I’d just have a look.’ I said, ‘Well you’d better do a good landing when you get,’ and he said, ‘Why?’ And I said, ‘You’ve got forty five pilots in the back.’ And he said, ‘We haven’t have we?’ He said, ‘I’ll give it to the second pilot. He lands it better than I do’ [laughs] So off we went and during the course of the flight he wandered back and he was saying hello and whatnot and, and when we’d landed and it was quite a reasonable landing he was there waiting and he saw me and he said, ‘Well? What did you think of the landing?’ And I said, ‘Nine out of ten.’ [laughs]. So anyway he laughed too. So that was that.
CB: Yeah. When. when you were in the States doing your training to what extent was the, how rigorous was the training? They examined you, tested you all the way did they?
JQ: All the way through.
CB: Or did you lose quite a few people because they didn’t pass.
JQ: Didn’t lose many people, no. And of course while up to that point sixteen people had been killed.
CB: Of the fifty or -
JQ: No. I mean -
CB: No. In general.
JQ: Since the thing started.
CB: Oh right. Ok.
JQ: And certainly one of my friends doing this air to ground gunnery had not pulled up early enough and had tipped his wing on the target which was a fairly a big target, half the size of this room and landed, well not landed but crashed about two fields away and of course he didn’t do himself any good so he disappeared. I don’t think he died or anything like that but so people, people left for one reason or another. Either they, very few fortunately got killed. Some, some just couldn’t complete the course because they were injured or their health wasn’t good or they had to stay there in hospital and whatnot and wait until they got better and then complete the course and presumably did something else so -
CB: I ask the question because over a course of training, period of training for RAF pilots there’s a continuous chop going on and I just wondered how the chop rate was there.
JQ: No. Well I would have said it was quite good actually.
CB: And then when you’d finished the training did they run a party for you or what did they do?
JQ: I remember the party very painfully actually.
CB: Oh. She was as nice as that was she?
JQ: Well we had, they told us they were going to give us this party at the end. Either they told us or we assumed it from somebody else who had it for us and we knew we were going to get one. In the, in the restaurant, what do they call it? What do they call the PA.
CB: The PX.
JQ: And so what we decided to do was to pay every week while we were training. We put in so many dollars. I can’t remember how much it was now each and then that would give us a free night. The night came and it was due to start say at 8 o’clock. I don’t remember quite now but all I’d got to do was walk from my billet, across about a hundred yards to the restaurant, PA or whatever and there I was so at five to eight I went across and there was a lot of blokes there and one bloke came up and said, ‘Hello John what are you having?’ That was only, I mean he wasn’t paying anyway but you know I said, ‘Oh I’ll have a beer, yes.’ Well he brought me this beer back and he said, ‘Cheers.’ ‘Cheers.’ And it was neat Scotch he’d got in this thing.
CB: Jeez.
JQ: I’d got, it wasn’t half a pint but it was I didn’t query it because we were in America not England. I’d have queried it if it was a beer in England because you should be up the top you see but it was three quarters of a glass, half a pint glass of this thing and it was neat Scotch so I thought well I’ll stick on this. I gently got a way through this. It was in, blokes were coming in and so forth and so I finished this thing and we still hadn’t started dinner so I don’t want to drink a pint of beer on the top of this half a pint, I don’t think they had pint glasses, I can’t remember now so I thought I’d have another of these so I had another of these Scotches. Big one. And we settled down to the dinner which, if I remember rightly was very nice and I finished this thing and all around me blokes were getting tight, you know, really really tight and I thought I’m blinking well doing well here on this Scotch. I’d better have another. So I had another. And I was still alright when I finished it and I thought, I don’t know how I managed this you see. So I thought well that’s over, finished, so I went outside you see and well the cold air hit me so I thought I’d better get off to bed so I started to walk this hundred yards to my bed and I got as far as the flagpole in the middle of this lawn where they ran up the RAF flag ceremoniously at 7 o’clock every morning. And I thought, oh I do feel tight. So I sat down and I don’t remember another thing until I woke up at half past five in the morning with the dew on me and I thought blimey I’d better get out of here or I’m going to be in trouble if they come to ceremoniously put [pause] so I staggered, I staggered to my bed, got into bed and of course I’d got to get up about an hour later or something like that and I felt like death for about three days, you know. So I won’t do that again. I don’t know how I managed it to be quite honest.
CB: So what was the accommodation like? Were you in individual -
JQ: Well the accom -
CB: Rooms or dormitories?
JQ: Well the set up was a, was a hotel. It had been a hotel. It was a chain. A bit, a bit like Premier Inn or something like that and they’d got a chain all around America of these things and they’d taken one of these over as the administrative building and it had got a fair amount of land around it or they’d, either that or they’d cornered it and they’d built these wooden huts you see which wasn’t terribly out of the ordinary ‘cause of course, particularly in Oklahoma a lot of their, or most of their houses are wooden anyway and they were very comfortable and of course being in the RAF the lino was polished, sort of thing, by us and all the beds were all tidy and done up officially when not being slept in and all this sort of thing and it was all very nice. When we went back on the thing, the, I forget what had happened to the administrative building. It wasn’t RAF. Whether it had gone back to being a hotel I don’t know but they let us go into the huts that we were in which had been taken over by Wrangler’s Jeans and they looked a right shambles. They really did. Absolute dump. And so that was it but while we were there it was very good.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I was a bit bothered about the fact that they’d built some, for the junior people, you know, the new intake they, I think they were stepping it up or something but they’d built another set of dormitories in wood and they also put some loos with them and the loos were just a series of WC’s about a yard apart all the way down. No, no shielding around them -
CB: No.
JQ: At all. I didn’t, I thought I couldn’t do that but fortunately I didn’t have to use those because I was a senior by that time.
CB: So what rank were you under training?
JQ: Under training I was an AC2 and as soon as we got our wings they made us sergeants and then from then on it was up to them how you got on and what you did and all that sort of thing.
CB: So you got your wings. You’re a sergeant. What happened to come back? How did you come back?
JQ: We came back on the Queen Mary, no Queen Elizabeth the first which I think was made to carry about three thousand. It was a cruise ship but it hadn’t been finished. It had been started before the war and it, and it was a ship which would go but it hadn’t got, the cabins were all inside but that was about it you know. Well, as a troop ship you don’t need all the comforts and what not so in a room which was supposed to be for two there would be six blokes and they could only sleep in it one night and the next night they’d have to sleep wherever and somebody else moved in and then the next night you were back in it and so you alternated but I mean the crossing was only about four days anyway so, but they’d got, on a ship that was supposed to take three thousand they’d got about ten thousand on it and it went at full speed and zigzagged all the way and if you didn’t lie down on the floor, if it wasn’t your turn to be in bed, in a bunk if you didn’t lie down on the floor somewhere by about half past six, at night you didn’t lie down because there were so many bodies all over the corridors and what not it was just practically impossible to find enough room to lie down so everybody was sort of certainly sitting down and marking their space very early on in the time. Nobody shaved, or very few people shaved. You couldn’t in actual fact have a decent shave because they didn’t, didn’t, if you turned a the tap on sea water came out which, which is alright for having a swill around but if you try and make a lather with, in salt water you’re struggling. You just don’t get one. So a lot of people thought blow it, you know, they just four days and just began to look -
JB: Stubby.
JQ: More unkempt every day.
CB: Where did that go in to?
JQ: That went in to, it went in to, Greenock.
CB: And from there where did you go?
JQ: From there we went to Heaton Park in, in Manchester. And from there, after we were at Heaton Park for a while, [pause] No I’m telling you wrong I’m sorry. We went in to Harrogate. Yes. That’s where we went. We went into Harrogate and then we were allocated places from there. I went to Oxford. To, up a little field and I mean a field at a place called Windrush.
CB: I know it.
JQ: And there we learned to fly on Oxfords.
CB: That’s at Witney.
JQ: Pardon?
CB: Windrush is at Witney.
JQ: Is it?
[Pause].
JQ: And -
[pause]
CB: So this was for your twin engine training.
JQ: That’s right and I remember going off, they sent us, they sent us off on a cross country. A solo cross country it was and I started off on this solo cross country and I ran into cloud which didn’t bother me because we could fly on instruments but unfortunately I came out of this cloud after I was supposed to have turned because I thought I would and I did come out but I couldn’t find myself and we got a system going, Darkie. I don’t know whether you’ve come across that.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: It was an emergency system and I thought well I’ll call up Darkie. So I said, ‘Hello Darkie. Hello Darkie.’ And the nearest aerodrome was supposed to reply. This is whoever. And then you knew where you were. Well one did reply and Snitterfield it was I was supposed to get to. I was now supposed to have landed at Snitterfield and so I said, ‘Hello Darkie. Hello Darkie. And they came back, they said, ‘Hello Darkie. This is Snitterfield.’ And I thought well I must be here and I was looking around and I thought well I can’t see Snitterfield here. You’d see an aerodrome. It was right underneath me. That’s why I couldn’t see it. [laughs]. Anyway I eventually spotted that and landed there and that was fine. And then another time I was doing something in this Oxford and I was flying low, minding my own business as it were and I smelled roast beef. At least I thought it was roast beef and it didn’t strike me for a bit and then I thought what am I doing smelling roast beef up here? So I thought what is it and I looked down and the batteries are there in an Oxford.
CB: Right next to you.
JQ: And it was sort of boiling over, this battery so I got, got down a bit sharpish after that but anyway it was alright. From there I was sent to Peplow which is, is up near Wellington in Shropshire and there we flew Wellingtons which I thought was quite a nice aircraft actually because of course by that time it was getting a but outdated and I think it was there that they put us all in a room and said pick yourself a crew.
CB: So this was an OTU.
JQ: Now, wait a minute.
CB: Based where did you say?
JQ: Yeah. Yes. Peplow. A place called Peplow.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
JQ: And put us all in this room and I finished up without a crew. Couldn’t make up my mind or they couldn’t make up, because everybody was supposed to have a go, you know. So they said, ‘You’ll have to wait ‘til next week.’ Anyway, I didn’t wait for next week ‘cause they got in touch with me in in the afternoon. I think we did the thing in the morning and they got in touch with me would I report somewhere which I did and oh by this time I was a flight sergeant and I reported and they said, ‘One of the pilots has gone missing,’ not missing, ‘sick. So we’re not holding the crew up,’ he said, ‘We’ve got two pilots and one crew so what we’re going to do is we’re going to let you meet the crew and the crew’s going to pick the pilot.’ So we met them and they picked me which was a bit fortunate for them because while we were still there the other pilot, the one that wasn’t picked, got a crew and he was flying this Wellington around still doing his training with the crew and the wing fell off and they all got killed. The initial finding was that it was pilot error but they did actually prove in the end that it wasn’t. That apparently, so I was told at that time, that the wing on a Wellington is only held on by two, albeit heavy bolts, one of which had rusted through or something [pause] and, and that that brings me to another tale of the same thing because a ground crew member when we were on ops, after we’d finished on operations, a ground crew member told me that one of the faults with the Lancaster was that they tended to get cracks in the main spar right near the fuselage and what what they used to do to cure it was to drop a piece of channel over the top of the main spar underneath the outer skin and pop rivet it on and put the main skin on and that was it and he said, ‘If you’d known that’s what we were doing you would never have flown it.’ I don’t think that’s quite right because we wouldn’t have had any, any say in the matter but how true that is I don’t know but that’s what a ground crew member told me.
CB: So you finished your OTU.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: With the crew who picked you.
JQ: That’s right.
CB: And how, where did you go after that?
JQ: Went to Lindholme.
CB: Right.
JQ: Which is now a prison I think up at Yorkshire and then we -
CB: And what happened at Lindholme? What was that?
JQ: Well Lindholme was four engines. Getting on to four, training on to four engines.
CB: So you got extra crew members there. Was this the HCU?
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Heavy Conversion Unit.
JQ: Yes. I think that’s what it was called. I just got one, one crew member there, the engineer.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I can’t. I flew a Halifax but I can’t remember whether it was, yeah, it must have been before we went on to the Wellingtons. I had some time on a Halifax and I remember learning all about the complicated fuel system on a Halifax because you’ve got to be careful because if you do it in the wrong order it can cut petrol off to all engines.
CB: Right.
JQ: But I’ve [pause] and I went on to Lancasters. Now I hadn’t got an engineer at the time and I was flying a Lancaster around without an engineer.
CB: At the HCU.
JQ: Yeah, but it wasn’t long before they gave me one and he was, he was an ex lorry driver. Nice chap. Anyway, he, he turned out to be a first class engineer in actual fact but at this time the, if you’re putting the flaps down on a Lancaster the lever is just there and you -
CB: On your right side.
JQ: Yes and you push, you push it down and wait for the flaps indicator to go around to whatever flaps you want and then you pull it back up again to the right position, to the sort of neutral position but its hydraulically done and if it, if it doesn’t work the trick is you push it down and if nothing works so you pull it up and push it down again and nine times out of ten it works ok. So we were practicing circuits and bumps with the engineer and I called for fifteen degrees of flap on the downwind legs so he gives me fifteen degrees of flap having slowed the aircraft so that it would take it. Now I’ve then got to slow the aircraft down a bit more so I can put thirty degrees of flap on and I’m now coming in on the final approach so I call for thirty degrees of flap and he pushes it down and nothing happens so he obviously does the right thing he pulls it back up again but he didn’t push it down again so, what fifteen degrees of flap or whatever how much he’s got down comes up rather smartly and we went down extremely smartly because we’d slowed down, half stalling really. So I rammed the, all the throttles wide open and we missed a tree by about a foot and everybody swore like the clappers and the engineer never did it again [laughs].
CB: Ok. We’ll stop there a mo.
[machine paused]
CB: So on the question of the engineer and the use of flaps and throttles who would normally run the flaps?
JQ: Normally the engineer would do the flaps.
CB: On your command.
JQ: On my command.
CB: Right.
JQ: That’s right and as I said before he made a mistake the first time but -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: He never made it again.
CB: No.
JQ: On, with regard to the throttles he followed me up. I always did the throttles.
CB: On take-off.
JQ: On take-off.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: In every way but he was there just in case something happened, I took my hand off for some reason or whatever, his hand was always there so that he could just push, push them up. He also looked after the petrol of course and switched all the tanks and so forth and after an initial period of time I trusted him enough to not even tell him to do it. He just did it. And there was a point where that came extremely useful because getting back to the war and why we were there and so forth we were hit by anti-aircraft fire on occasion and I never noticed to be quite honest because I was still on the bombing run and on a bombing you’ve got to fly extremely accurately straight and level and keeping the height and the speed and the attitude of the aircraft absolutely [thing?] There’s only way of doing that particularly at night is on instruments, so you’d be there on instruments trying to be as accurate as you can and the engineer er the bomb aimer would be saying, ‘Left. Left. Right. Right,’ and so forth and you’d be following his instructions and so I was doing that when the upper mid, mid-upper gunner said, ‘Skip, we’re on fire,’ and I looked and the port tank was on fire and going quite, quite well but it hadn’t exploded.
CB: Which tank is this? Is this number one on the in board?
JQ: I don’t, no it’s -
CB: Close to the fuselage
JQ: It was, I can’t remember. I think it was between the two engines I thought.
CB: Right.
JQ: Anyway. I can’t remember to be exact. Anyway, I was still on the bombing run because I thought well we’ve got to finish this bombing run so keeping a quick eye on that or trying to and doing the bombing run at the same time. I was trying to decide what to do and I thought well the thing to do is we’ve probably got to bale out but I was determined to finish this bombing run because we were so near so I said, ‘Prepare to abandon the aircraft,’ but I still continued the bombing run and the bomb aimer still continued to give me instruction and then when we’d finished, when he said, ‘Bombs gone,’ we’d still got to carry on that little bit longer for the photograph you see and by this time I’d come to the conclusion that if we were going to bale out, over the target was not a good idea, because apart from the fact that you’d be getting into a whole lot of anti- aircraft fire because the Germans weren’t aiming at any particular aircraft they were just pumping as much stuff up there as they could possibly get and so and if you managed to avoid all that the natives below wouldn’t be very pleased to see you and indeed they had been known to be extremely annoyed. So I thought well we’ve got a short dog leg to do which is going to take us about five minutes I wonder if we could, we shall have to risk it so as soon as, soon as the time was up I’d turned and it was then I said, ‘Prepare to abandon ship,’ which they all did. Before we got to the end of the thing, the end of this dog leg the fire went out, much to everybody’s amazement including me and we, I’d then got another problem. Have we got enough petrol to get back? Now, quite by chance, the engineer hadn’t got much petrol in that tank which is why it went out but how much was in it we’ll never know because, I’ll tell you in a minute. So I said, ‘Well have we got enough petrol to get home?’ And he sort of calculated up what we’d got in the other tanks and so forth. Fortunately it was a Ruhr thing so it was a short trip. He said, ‘If we’re careful we’ve got enough to get home.’ So he was able to give me an assurance so we were careful and we had to come back at a slow rate and you know, not too use much petrol and that sort of thing. When we got back we found, oh, on the way back the mid-upper gunner said, ‘Skip, I can’t move my turret.’ So I said, ‘Oh. Do you know the reason?’ He said, ‘No. I’ve no idea.’ He said, ‘Could I come down then?’ You know, because he was a bit cold up there and it was a bit warmer in the cockpit and I said, ‘No, you can’t. You stop up there and keep a good lookout,’ So he stopped up there. Anyway, when we got back and down and safe we found that the jettison tube which, I don’t know whether you know, a bit about that diameter and if you want to jettison petrol you pull a lever or push a button, or pull a lever I think it was and this thing drops down and all the petrol goes whoosh down and what had happened was that where we were hit it it had set the thing on fire but at the same time it had dropped this petrol jettison tank down and all the petrol went down very quickly out of the aircraft and what was burning but quite fiercely, instead of exploding it was sort of burning and there wasn’t a lot of it so it didn’t last more than about five minutes or something like that. Well the sequel to that is that it must have been about forty, forty five years later my rear gunner had a sixty fifth birthday party, a surprise party given to him by his wife and she invited all the crew and we all went up and of course he was very surprised and we all got chatting and what not and it was then that he told us this tale. He said, oh no I’m over running the thing, I’m sorry. I’ll go back again. When I’d said, ‘Prepare to abandon ship.’
CB: Yeah.
JQ: He opened his doors, got his parachute out of the thing and clipped it on himself or got it ready to clip on himself, I don’t know whether he’d got room, yes he did. And he sat there waiting for the instruction to bail out in which case he would have probably turned this thing and gone out backwards.
CB: Rolled out backwards. Yeah.
JQ: Now, me in the front there when everything had, when the fire had gone out and I decided that we weren’t going to abandon ship after all I I gave the order not to abandon ship you see and I called everybody in turn and said, ‘Are you alright?’ And one by one they answered and said, ‘yes,’ they are but I didn’t get any reply from the rear gunner so I sent the engineer back to see if he was alright and after a minute or two he came back and he said. ‘Oh, he’s alright. He’s ok,’ he said. I said, ‘Well why didn’t he reply?’ And he said, ‘Well when he got his parachute pack out,’ he said, ‘He inadvertently pulled his plug out of his thing.’ He said, ‘he never got the message not to abandon ship,’ you see. So at this party forty five years later he told, he said he was sitting there waiting for the abandon ship thing and it never came so he thought we’d all gone and he was in there on his own and he was there for ages. Well until the engineer went back. What a thing for a chap to sit in there thinking he’s flying in an aircraft which is flying on its own which of course it could well have been.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JQ: And I think that’s absolutely amazing.
[pause]
CB: Right. So we’ve got to the stage earlier where the engineer pulled up, didn’t use the flaps right.
JQ: Right.
CB: And we’re getting to the end of being at the HCU and then we went on to the operational flight.
JQ: Yeah. That of course was -
CB: That you were talking about.
JQ: That of course was an operational flight.
CB: Exactly. Yeah. But we haven’t finished the earlier bit which was when you were at the HCU. So how did you finish at the HCU?
JQ: Well the thing I remember about that is that, also was that I was at the HCU I’d fixed to get married and they sent a message through saying would I attend a commissioning interview, on my wedding day. Not that they knew it was my wedding day.
CB: Right.
JQ: So I thought I can’t put my wedding off you see so I went to the CO and said would it be possible for me to, thing, and he said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘You can’t do that,’ he said. ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You can,’ he said. ‘But,’ he said, ‘The chances are you won’t get a commission if you don’t.’ And so I thought, ‘Well I won’t then,’ you see. Anyway, my crew, crew persuaded me that that wasn’t a very good idea so I requested another interview with the CO and he gave me one and he said, ‘Well Quine,’ he said, ‘It’s not my decision,’ he said, ‘It comes from group this has.’ And there was a sergeant in the room at the time and the sergeant said, ‘What’s the problem sir?’ So he told him. He said, ‘Would you excuse me a moment,’ and off he went and he came back again and he said, ‘It’s alright sir. I’ve fixed it quite good.’ He said, ‘If he could get there for 2 o’clock in the afternoon instead of 9 o’clock in the morning it’ll be ok.’ And I thought the CO couldn’t do it and that sergeant had done it. Well it appeared that the sergeant worked in the office and he was in touch with with his counterpart at group and he got through and this chap had said it would be alright, you know.
CB: So what time was the wedding?
JQ: Well the wedding was supposed to be at some reasonable sort of time but you know 9 o’clock in the morning there’s no reasonable time you can get married about 6 o’clock in the morning or something like so I would have had to have cancelled it but what I did do was to got married at half past nine in the morning and then I’d got to get from here, well not this house, but, you know, a similar one.
CB: Lickey.
JQ: Lickey. Well it wasn’t Lickey actually. It was a place called [Linkbery?]
CB: Oh yes I know.
JQ: Where we’d gone to live by that time. No. It wasn’t. No. I beg your pardon it was here. It was here, Lickey. And I had to get, get there without any public transport or cars. Well public transport but certainly no cars so I managed to get myself on a train. It must have been about 11 o’clock or something like that ‘cause I got married. Had a quick wedding breakfast. Got on a train, went, that’s right it was a train. I went into Birmingham, and then I had to change trains in Birmingham and get up to Derby, Burton on Trent, get off at Burton on Trent and there was a taxi outside. There weren’t many taxis but I went up to this taxi and I can remember I said, ‘Could you take me to Eckington Hall?’ I remember the name of the place. It had been taken over by the RAF and I said to him, ‘Could you take me to Eckington Hall?’ He said, ‘I’m engaged.’ So I said, ‘I’ve just been married.’ And he said, ‘Oh. Well I’ll take you then.’ [laughs] Not only that. He not only took me but he also took my wife and we were going on honeymoon. You couldn’t go out of the country of course, you couldn’t even go to the seaside in those days. Not within ten miles of the coast so we had to go to Shrewsbury and so when we got to Eckington Hall in this taxi I went up to the guardroom at the, which was at a lodge at the front of this big hall and saw the thing in the guardroom and the chap said, I said I’ve got my wife outside. We just got married. Could she come in as well? He said, ‘Oh no you can’t bring her in.’ You see. So I had to say, ‘You’ll have to stop out here,’ you see, so leaving a rather a large case and what not with my wife I said, ‘Well which way do I go?’ and they said, ‘It’s that nissen hut over there,’ ‘cause they’d put some huts in the thing. So leaving my wife there I went and it’s now about 2 o’clock in the afternoon or something like that and I went to this nissen hut and I opened the door to find myself immediately in the interview room with an interview going on and a sergeant rushed over and he said, ‘You must be Quine.’ And I said, ‘Yes I am.’ He said, ‘Go around the other side.’ So I went around the other side and the place was full of people.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: All waiting for commissioning interviews so somebody I knew there, and I said, ‘How, how long is it?’ They said, ‘Well we’ve been here since 9 o’clock this morning,’ And I said, ‘Well what’s the order?’ And they said, ‘Well, you know, did they take your name on the way in?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well that’s it. You have to wait for it.’ He said, ‘You’re in the back of the queue.’ I thought, blimey, what’s my wife going to do out there? So there wasn’t anything I could do about it. So took my hat off and sat down talking to these chaps and I hadn’t been there two or three minutes and they shouted out, ‘Quine.’ And so I got up and they said, ‘Your hat. Put your hat on,’ you see [laughs] so put my hat on. I went in and they knew all about it and they said, ‘You got married.’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Well we hope you have a nice honeymoon and good luck,’ and so forth and off I went to find my wife and she’d been standing outside there and of course all the guards were looking at her all the time so she thought she couldn’t stop. So she wandered off down the road and got herself in the telephone box and she was sitting on her case in the telephone box.
CB: Now which date was this?
JQ: Pardon?
CB: What date was this?
JQ: It was September the 28th 1944.
CB: Right. So when did you know that you’d got your commission?
JQ: It wasn’t long. It wasn’t long. It was quite quick actually because I was still at Lindholme and I knew I’d got it and they gave me some leave, a few days leave so I could go and get myself kitted out and I came to Birmingham. I got kitted, kitted out in a shop that knew all about what they were doing and they’d done it so many times before.
CB: So you’ve got married, you got the interview, you went on honeymoon to, where did you say?
JQ: We went to -
CB: Shrewsbury.
JQ: Well it was near Shrewsbury.
CB: Right.
JQ: It wasn’t in Shrewsbury.
CB: Ok.
JQ: I can’t remember now.
CB: Ok. So you’re at the HCU at that stage at Lindholme.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: When did you finish there and where did you go?
JQ: I think I went straight from there to the, to Hemswell I think. I can’t remember now.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Yeah.
[machine paused]
JQ: So you’re finished at Eckington Hall. What did you do then? You’ve got your wife there waiting for you.
CB: Yeah. So we’d got to go on honeymoon from there.
JQ: Yeah. So we’d got to go back to Birmingham and then catch a train to Shrewsbury so we got back to Birmingham along with three friends that I knew that, who had also been at the interview and we were standing on the station at Snow Hill and my wife decided that, you know, it was men’s talk and what not so she’d gone and sat in the train that was there and one of the other chaps, a chap with red hair so we called him Ginger quite obviously, he’d gone to keep my wife company and have a chat to her and so forth when the train started moving with Ginger and my wife in the thing and me on the platform so there was quite a scramble to change over but we managed it.
CB: Crikey. Where did you meet your wife?
JQ: I used to go to school with her at Bromsgrove High School and we went on the same school bus and in the end we were married for sixty three years.
CB: Brilliant.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Fantastic.
JQ: She died in 2006.
CB: Right.
JQ: So -
CB: Ok.
[machine paused]
CB: So you left the, at the HCU. You had Lancasters, you had Halifax to begin with. Then what happened?
JQ: We went on, got converted onto Lancasters.
CB: Right. And so you left there and went to which -
JQ: We left there on the29th of the 11th
CB: Yeah.
JQ: ’46. No.
CB: ‘45. ‘44
JQ: ’44.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And -
CB: And went, went to your squadron.
JQ: I went to the squadron on December the 2nd.
CB: Yeah. Which was -
JQ: 1944.
CB: Which squadron?
JQ: 170.
CB: Right. At -
JQ: Hemswell.
CB: At Hemswell. Ok.
JQ: And then I went on my first operation on December the 4th
CB: Yes.
JQ: But it was only me that went on that. My crew didn’t. They just, they had the thing of sending you as second pilot for your first time to give you the idea.
CB: Where did you go?
JQ: Karlsruhe.
[pause]
CB: So then you picked up your crew for the next ones. What was the next raid?
JQ: The next one was Koblenz. December the 22nd
CB: Ok. What were the most notable ops? Do you remember?
JQ: Well I remember, well obviously we went on fire was the one -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I remember most.
CB: When was that [pause] ‘cause that was caused by flak.
JQ: That was caused by flak. Yeah.
[pause]
CB: I’ll stop for a mo. while you look.
[machine pause]
CB: So one of your notable events was when you got hit. So what was that?
JQ: That was on Feb -
CB: And when was that?
JQ: That was on February the 3rd 1945.
CB: Ok. What happened there?
JQ: Well we were flying at Bottrop. There was intense searchlight activity with a heavy and light barrage and predicted flak and we were hit by flak and the port wing caught fire.
CB: And how did you know that you’d been hit?
JQ: Well the mid-upper gunner spotted it and -
CB: So if you’re hit in the fuel tank what normally happens?
JQ: Well it normally explodes.
CB: Right. What did the crew do?
JQ: The mid-upper gunner spotted it because I was flying on instruments at the time, on the bombing run and I had to make up my mind what to do and I decided to finish the bombing run which was only a short time afterwards and then decide whether to abandon the aircraft or what to do and I decided that baling out over the target with all that flak and everything else wasn’t a very good idea and so I decided we’d do a short dog leg which we had to do and then bale out so I warned the crew to get ready to bale out but the short dog leg, which was going to take about five minutes, after a couple of minutes the fire went out. For what reason we didn’t know at the time and our biggest problem was would we have enough fuel to get back again. We did in actual fact find out that when we got back to the aircraft, to the aerodrome at home that the discharge tube from the tank for quickly discharging petrol had been hit, it had set what petrol there was in the tank, not a lot fortunately, on fire and the rest had gone straight out of the dumping, discharge tube and, which had then wound itself around the mid-upper turret stopping it from movement.
CB: Blimey. Yes. So the gunner was lucky not to be dowsed in fuel.
JQ: Well he was. Yes. Yes.
CB: Oh he was dowsed in fuel.
JQ: No he wasn’t. He was lucky.
CB: He was lucky yeah. In the circumstance of a tank being ruptured what would the flight engineer normally do?
JQ: Well there wasn’t a lot he could do. There was a, there was a lever to pull which, if I remember rightly, it was nitrogen which would go in and dowse the flames but I can’t remember where it was now but that was, that was the procedure but it all happened so quickly and what with everything going on one -
CB: Sure.
JQ: One wonders.
CB: I’m just wondering whether they would, the flight engineer would normally try to pump fuel out.
JQ: No. he wouldn’t do.
CB: Or was that a dangerous thing to do?
JQ: Well he wouldn’t do it fast enough. I mean fuel normally ignited, explodes doesn’t it? I mean why it didn’t explode, my own theory is that it was so fast coming out of this discharge tube because it was about a foot in diameter this thing.
CB: Oh.
JQ: And so it would really go out and what was left was just burning plus the fact that there was a fair airstream coming over the top of the wing which would keep it from sort of flaming upwards. It was all flaming backwards. It was flaming quite a lot but, enough to be quite frightening.
CB: What speed would you be flying -
JQ: Oh we’d be doing -
CB: On your run in to the bombing?
JQ: We’d be doing roughly two hundred and twenty five miles an hour, er knots, knots or miles and hour I can’t remember now.
CB: Did the gauges read in knots, or miles an hour?
JQ: Do you know I can’t remember?
CB: It doesn’t matter. I’m just curious.
JQ: I pretty sure it’s knots but -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I wouldn’t put my shirt on it now to be honest although I’ve got a thing here which, cruising speed two hundred and ten.
CB: Right.
JQ: Miles per hour that is.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: A hundred and ninety knots.
JQ: And on today’s thing you’d think this was low but the service ceiling of a Lancaster is twenty four thousand five hundred and I took one up to twenty four thousand on one occasion and it was getting extremely slow to get any higher and you know you, you couldn’t get any -
CB: Staggering.
JQ: Headway at all really.
CB: What, what height were you on that day you had the flak fire?
JQ: No. I haven’t -
CB: Would your engines be running at normal cruise all the same all the time then? It didn’t, the fire didn’t affect the engine, either of the engines on that side.
JQ: No. No it didn’t. No. I did actually, when we got back into safer areas I did actually slow the aircraft right down. At night, it’s a bit, it all seems to be a bit hairy sort of doing odd manoeuvres at night but I thought I thought I’d better do it and I warned the crew I was going to do it and I slowed right down to almost a stall. In fact it was beginning to judder and I thought well that’s alright. So -
CB: So your stall clean, that’s with the flaps up, would be what? Roughly. A hundred and forty. A hundred and thirty miles an hour.
JQ: Something like that. I’m just wondering if I’ve got it here. Some people could remember these things straight off and I’m blowed if I can.
CB: Anyway -
JQ: Maximum speed is two hundred and eighty seven at fifteen thousand feet.
CB: For the Lancaster yeah.
JQ: For the Lancaster.
CB: So the other part of your tour you did how many, how many ops did you do in total in that tour with 170?
[machine pause]
CB: So with 170 squadron then how many ops did you do for, it wasn’t a tour but before you moved? You did how many ops? You did eight did you?
JQ: Eight.
CB: Right. Then why did you only do eight?
JQ: Because we moved. We volunteered for, a notice came up they wanted volunteers for, the thing, now there’s a little story about that because we decided that we’d have a go at this.
CB: At what? Volunteering for what?
JQ: Volunteered for -
CB: For Pathfinder.
JQ: Pathfinders.
CB: Right.
JQ: Yeah. And this was something from our point of view I suppose was a little bit new in actual fact because most Pathfinders were Mosquitos but they decided, I don’t know whether they decided then or it just happened to come up but anyway they had this thing and on the 170 squadron we had A crews and B crews and A crews were judged by the practice bombing that we did as to how accurate they were. We had to do, if I remember rightly, drop smoke bombs, we only dropped smoke bombs for practice within about ten yards of the target and it, it might have been a bit more than that but I’m not quite sure and we got, dropped ten within that thing. Well we were a B crew so we decided to try and prove we were an A crew so we did actually, and they said well you know prove to us that we, you can do it so we went up in Lancaster and we went down to the bombing range near Southampton to do this and if I remember rightly it was from about fifteen thousand feet we were dropping eleven pound smoke bombs. The first one we dropped alright as far as I remember. The next one coming up and of course I’m trying to fly very accurately and the bomb aimer says, ‘Overshoot.’ So we overshot and went around again and do a sort of circuit you see and sometimes we dropped them and sometimes we overshot and in the end we dropped them all and the bomb aimer said, ‘I think we’ve done it.’ So in exuberance of the fact that I’d been flying very accurately and you know really trying hard with this thing I decided that I’d [?] like this knowing exactly what would happen of course by pushing the control columns but I was a bit too exuberant about it so the rear gunner had the ride of his life and the navigator lost a pair of compasses down the side of the aircraft never to be found again. So anyway we had a good laugh about that.
CB: So you put the nose down. How long did you run it with the nose down?
JQ: Oh only just down and then back again.
CB: Oh right.
JQ: But of course the tail comes up you see.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: The nose goes down, the bomb aimer was wondering, I should think, where he was going.
CB: Bumped his nose. Yeah.
JQ: Anyway, that was alright. We had a good laugh about it. I said, ‘I’m sorry blokes I didn’t mean to do it quite that hard,’ you know. They said, ‘Oh that’s alright.’ That’s when I learned the navigator had lost his compasses or his dividers or whatever they were so we go back to the squadron and and land and the pilot is usually the last one out because you know, the rear gunners usually get out pretty smartly and then the wireless operator. The navigator has got to put his maps away in his bag and he’s got to get himself out and then the pilot’s got to see that the controls are locked and the petrol’s switched off and all this and the engineer might beat him by a short head sort of thing and so I’m just switched everything off and seen everything’s alright and walking down this thing and I could hear this row going on. I said, ‘What’s the row about?’ You see. And I looked and I thought I know what the row’s about. It was this high tech bit of equipment that we’d got in the back of the Lancaster namely an elsan toilet. You see, I wasn’t to know that the elastic band over the top had broken so of course as we, as I’d pushed the stick forward all the contents had come out of this toilet and of course it’s blue. I could see. I mean it’s not a thing you can wipe down just like that because the inside of a military aircraft is full of struts and wires and all sorts of things.
CB: Christ.
JQ: And this, this flight sergeant was going on to my crew despite of the fact that two of them were officers and going on about, ‘bloody mess’ so I thought that’s a bit much. I shall have to apologise so I get to the top of the steps and he’s down there and I said, ‘I’m sorry chiefy,’ I said, ‘It’s, it’s my fault. I was a bit too enthusiastic.’ ‘That’s alright sir. We’ll soon get it cleaned up.’ [laughs] So that was a tale.
CB: Brilliant. What, who were the other officers, what, in the aircraft?
JQ: Well there was Mike Seaton who was navigator. And I’ll tell you a tale about him in a minute and then there was Alf Thompson, rear gunner. Eddie Howell, mid-upper gunner.
CB: All officers.
JQ: Oh no. Beg your pardon. You only wanted officers didn’t you? No.
CB: I want to know all the others but -
JQ: Yeah. Well they were -
CB: I’m just curious about the officers.
JQ: Yeah. Well the navigator was an officer.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Jimmy Green, I haven’t told you. He was an officer.
CB: This is the bomb aimer was he?
JQ: He was the bomb aimer. And then there was Jack Bassington. He wasn’t an officer. How many have you got?
CB: Wait a minute. Yeah. Sorry. So Jimmy Green. Mike Seaton, Ralph Thompson was the rear gunner.
JQ: No. Alf.
CB: Alf Thompson. Sorry. Ok, who was the mid-upper?
JQ: No. No. He was the rear -
CB: Yeah, but who was the mid-upper?
JQ: Eddie Howell. How many have you got?
CB: Wireless operator?
JQ: Jack Bressington. Bressington.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And me. That should be seven.
[pause]
CB: Engineer?
JQ: Engineer.
[machine paused]
CB: Just ask you the question. So John just going back to the time the plane’s on fire the mid-upper tells you that the plane’s on fire. What’s your immediate reaction? How do you feel about that?
JQ: Well it’s difficult to, difficult to say really. If you’re one of these people who can make an instant reaction and it happens to be the right reaction then that’s what you must do but the average person it takes a second or two to sink in and I was doing a job on a bombing run and so I knew that I’d got to do something and the thing I was doing was the nearest thing to do. Having done that I was able to think that getting out of a plane over a target in an area full of anti-aircraft fire with a lot of hostile natives below wasn’t a very good idea. The chances of, of the petrol tank blowing up were diminished slightly, I realised quite quickly because if it was going to blow up it would have been blown up before then and so I thought with a bit of luck I could get to the end of a dogleg which was going to take me about five minutes and then bale out and that was my intention and fortunately the fire went out for whatever reason. We didn’t know at the time but we found out when we got back what had happened.
CB: So you said already you slowed the aircraft down but when you landed, how did you feel?
JQ: Relieved [laughs] yes because I was relieved because it was a fact that we, the fire went out was a relief to start with but we were then faced by the fact that we might not have enough petrol to get back so we might still have to bale out at some stage but at least we might be able to get to somewhere where it was a little bit more friendly then there. So when I slowed the aircraft down and let it almost stall and put the wheels down and I got the indication that they were down and then pulled them back up again of course then I was more relieved at that but we still couldn’t be quite sure whether the aircraft wheels would stay locked down when we got there so I tried to put it down as gently as I could but we were quite relieved to get back.
CB: So your concern there was whether the hydraulics had been damaged. Was it?
JQ: Yes it was. Or anything, any other reason.
CB: Yeah. So what I’m thinking is you taxi to dispersal.
JQ: I wasn’t bothered about taxi.
CB: Then what do you do?
JQ: Yeah. I think we, I don’t think we whooped with joy or anything like that you know I think we just sort of accepted it as being jolly good fortune and next stop the -
CB: The fry up.
JQ: The coffee. Coffee.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Coffee and rum.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And the interrogation as to what had happened.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And, and then eventually to get to bed because we were usually pretty tired by that time.
CB: But you were a bit more tired with that one.
JQ: Yeah.
[machine paused]
JQ: To the dispersal that you know we’d be, we’d be briefed in the briefing room as to what we’d got to do, where we were going and get all our maps, or the navigator would get all his maps together and you’d put all your kit on and you’d get in the wagon and they had to take you out to dispersal and dump you there and you wouldn’t get in the aircraft because you were going to be in there long enough so you’d stop outside the aircraft and chat or do whatever and the CO used to come around, always came around and said, ‘Good luck everybody,’ and then off he’d go again in his car and you’d laugh and joke and whatnot and I’ve often wondered why we did it and everybody did it you know. And I think, thinking back, I think it was bravado. You know. We all, we all knew why we were going and we all knew the chances that we, but nobody said it and I think you just joked. The Americans used to play baseball or something or other.
CB: Antidote to the stress.
JQ: Yeah. I think so. I think that’s what it must have been.
CB: So you’ve got, you’ve got out of the wagon. You’ve peed against the rear wheel. You -
JQ: No. I never did that.
CB: Oh. You didn’t. Right.
JQ: No. Some of them did.
CB: But when you, as soon as, the joking is outside, but as soon as you get in the aircraft.
JQ: No. There wasn’t any joking there.
CB: Right [pause]. How did the crew get on?
JQ: Oh fine. We never had any, any bother about anything. Yes. We were ok.
[machine pause]
JQ: Bomb aimer had been in the air force a little bit longer so he tended to be the one that knew about things. We didn’t get on with him to start with and tried to get rid of him but the CO wasn’t having it. I think if we’d pressed him really hard I think he would have done it.
CB: Was it because -
JQ: Because you were supposed to be able to do it.
CB: Was it his second tour?
JQ: No. No. No. I think he’d been on the ground. He was always a bit, could never quite understand him really. A bit of a line shoot you know. But you know having got over the initial thing we all understood him and you know, he used to joke about the fact, because we had batwomen you know and he always used to say, ‘No batwoman has ever, ever beaten me to the door,’ sort of thing and things like that he used to say. Nobody believed him of course.
CB: This is because you had a mixed crew in terms of rank so you had officers and he was one and you had NCOs so -
JQ: There was one, one on somewhere. I think it was one of the heavy conversion units we were on, he was a wing commander and he used to make his crew line up and salute him as they got in.
CB: And he was serious.
JQ: Oh yes. He was dead serious.
CB: And he was the squadron commander was he?
JQ: No. No. He was just one of us really but his rank was wing commander. Quite how he got there, he was probably re-mustered from some other thing.
CB: Just on that topic did you ever get people who came on an ad hoc basis from OTUs? So they would just come to a station because there was always a shortage of somebody sometime and would just fly with a crew. Did you get any of those?
JQ: Never had that.
CB: In term, we’ve talked about a number of aspects but in terms of your gunners you have a mid-upper and a tail gunner.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: To what extent -
JQ: And of course the bomb aimer had guns up front.
CB: And a bomb aimer at the front. So how often did they, did you get attacked and fire the guns?
JQ: Well never is the answer to that. They did fire the guns but not in anger only to, you know see where we were going and we had to do something to fire at something for some reason or other in the sea. I can’t remember quite why it was now but we never, and I’ve often wondered why we never got attacked and I have a feeling that it may be you read these stories about blokes going on the raids, I’ve read one or two actually and they seem to choose their own height. They might, might attack the target at the right height but in between they’ve gone down low or whatnot. They always used to give us a height to fly and I always flew it and the reason I always flew it is was that I reckoned the higher you go the less petrol you used because the air’s thinner so you don’t need quite so much so that’s what I did. I did what I was told really.
CB: What heights would they be?
JQ: Well it varied. I mean, it, I think the lowest in anger would be about fifteen thousand and the highest would be about twenty and of course the Germans knew this and that’s why they put their thing, they had a box and, but I think what some people must have done is to say right, ‘We’ve done that, dropped the bombs, right, stick the nose down and get home boys,’ you see and you can get that bit faster sticking their nose down and what not. Well you’d use more petrol doing it that way but you’d obviously have enough to get back but you know if you, if you were in trouble then perhaps you’d might miss that bit that you’ve got. But look at it from a fighter’s point of view. Chap’s there in a fighter and he’s churning around at night and there’s one nice and down low where he is and other than that he’s got to climb up to twenty thousand feet or something or other and do up there so he thinks I’ll stop down here and probably gets the pickings down there which wasn’t not the reason I stopped up there in actual fact. I stopped up there because that’s what they said so that’s what I did so -
CB: And when you’re in the bomber stream you need to be on some pre-agreed level don’t you?
JQ: Yes but I’ve read quite a few stories about people who didn’t and of course there must be a lot who didn’t or don’t admit it or didn’t admit it at the time and but I mean I had one time, is that on?
CB: Ahum.
JQ: One time we were told to get together, I can’t remember, rendezvous, that’s the word I was trying to think of, rendezvous at fifteen thousand feet above our airfield along with a lot of others and so we started off and we’d got I think three quarters of an hour, or an hour or something like that to do it and it took us more than that to get to fifteen thousand feet by which time everybody else had gone and it, I mean it was a night raid but it started off in daylight and I knew the reason that we, everybody else had gone was because we weren’t getting the power and I was looking around for a reason. Checked everything through. Checked everything I could think of. I couldn’t find the reason and they said, we did actually set course at the time we should have done but we set course at a lower level. We were still climbing, trying to get to this fifteen thousand feet. By the time we get, we got to the coast the darkness was closing in and we could see the Dutch coast and we could see flak coming up like mad there so we knew that that’s where the bomber stream was and we were on our own and so I thought we were in for it when we, you know, they’ll get us good and proper but anyway so on we went straight through Holland. Nothing. Every now and again on the way we could see these, this flak coming up and every time we got to somewhere near there, nothing. And then we get near the target, near it, it’s going to take us another quarter of an hour or so to get there but I could see over there at about two o’clock to my thing was this beautiful sight, it was amazing really and I thought what on earth is that? And I very quickly realised it was our raid going on and you got the fires that had been lit with the bombing, you’d got Window, do you know what I mean by Window?
CB: Absolutely. Yes.
JQ: Yeah. Trickling down, well you couldn’t actually see the Window but you could see the sparkles coming down. You could see the searchlights going up in to a cone over the top. You could see the markers green and red and what not there and the anti-aircraft fire and it was really was a beautiful sight and it took me a second or two to realise what the devil it was because I knew we’d got to go there, there and bomb on the way back. So I thought blimey. They were really going to be waiting for us when we get there so we did that, we came and we turned around and we were on the run in now. So this time I thought right I’m going to get out of here as quickly as we can so I put the throttles right up, and we went in and we did the bombing run, we went out, not a searchlight came up. Nothing. No ackack fire. Nothing. And it was only on the way out as one searchlight popped up and it wasn’t terribly near us and we got back and we never had a blind thing really and we were all on our own.
CB: Amazing. What height did you manage to achieve in the end?
JQ: Oh I think we, I think we -
CB: It doesn’t matter but I was just curious.
JQ: I can’t remember now. I’ll just see if I can spot it.
CB: Because in practical terms if you were low on power it would be pretty difficult loaded to get high wouldn’t it?
JQ: Yeah. Oh that wasn’t the reason. No, I found, we found out the reason afterwards when we got back because I went around the next morning and said to the mechanics, ‘What did you find?’ And it was stuck in hot air and there was a lever, hot and cold air and I checked that but the answer I got was when they loaded the bombs they, they’d bent a control rod. Now, why a control rod for hot air should go through a bomb bay I’ve no idea but that’s the answer I got so. But I did check, check that. That was the first thing I checked because I -
[pause]
CB: Well let’s pick up that up a bit later. Can we move to when you became a Pathfinder? So you moved from 170 because you did your practice bombing.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: You were so elated with that you put the nose down and –
JQ: Yes.
CB: The elsan -
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Decided to -
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Fly.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: But presumably you were re-graded on that.
JQ: We were. Yes. We were.
CB: So -
JQ: They made us an A crew.
CB: That made you an A crew so what happened then?
JQ: So then they posted us to -
CB: So 582 squadron.
JQ: 582 squadron.
CB: Little Staughton
JQ: Little Staughton. That’s right.
CB: Now this was a demanding experience was it?
JQ: Well they, yes, they didn’t put us straight onto ops because they don’t operate quite the same. They don’t operate the Lancasters quite the same either. They fly them a little bit faster and various other things I can’t quite remember them all now but it wasn’t that much different but they had their own way of doing things. We were expected to, if I remember rightly, we were expected to get to the target plus or minus. I can’t think whether it was a minute or four minutes plus or minus but whereas main force they give you each hour and you started off when you should get there at the time and when you arrived you bombed but you, with Pathfinders you started in good time and then the navigator worked out, he kept working out the eta and if you wanted to lose some time then he’d say, ‘Lose a couple of minutes Skip,’ you see, so I’d turn forty five degrees to the, to the route for two minutes. I’d turn ninety degrees back for two minutes and that puts you back on where you were but two minutes later and then you kept doing that and doing that and you could actually get there more or less smack on time doing that but of course it means that you’re there longer and then what you do then is you have, you have to drop Window which protects the people behind you. It doesn’t do anything for you. It just accentuates the view of you because they can see a line of Win, on the radar they could see a line of Window coming from you but nothing in front so they know that’s you. So we had a special radio which we switched on just before we got anywhere near the target and that sort of blurred everything in front so it gave us the protection that we were giving everybody behind. Having done that we’d go in and if you were new to the, to the Pathfinders you would go in as a supporter. They wouldn’t let you drop a flare or a marker or anything like that but you would go in with those blokes who were going to do that and the fact you were dropping Window and using your radio and all that sort of thing you were supporting them in that, in that respect. You would then, having supported them in that way you then did a circuit around, came back into the bomber stream again and came up to the target again.
CB: In the bomber stream.
JQ: In the bomber stream. And then drop bombs or whatever they’d put in, in the bomb bay. I always thought that was the most dangerous time to be quite honest because it was like doing a u-turn on the M1 at night, you know, without any lights because you didn’t know whether there was some of your own bombers.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Would come and wipe you up you know. I mean I know they worked it all out so that you should all be separated but it doesn’t work like that you know.
CB: No.
JQ: Anyway we never did come to any harm. And then after you’ve done some of those then then they started giving you flares and markers to drop.
CB: How many sorties, ops, would you have to do before qualifying for that? Normally.
JQ: I, I think it was five.
CB: Ok.
JQ: No. No. Wait a minute. It could have been more than that.
CB: So after five you would then join the others straight in.
JQ: Straight in. Yeah.
CB: With flares.
JQ: Except the master, master bomber of course. He was floating around all the time.
CB: Right. So the master bomber would be there and then he would be, what height would he be at?
JQ: Oh he would go -
CB: Watching what was going on?
JQ: Anywhere. Usually quite low.
CB: Oh was he?
JQ: Yeah. And usually in a Mosquito.
CB: Ah.
JQ: In fact I would think probably always in a Mosquito.
CB: And would the master bomber be a pilot or would he be a navigator in a Mosquito?
JQ: Do you know I don’t know? We had, you see, on our squadron, on our thing at Little Staughton we had 582 which was Lancasters and 109 which was Mosquitos and it used to annoy us because we’d go in and we’d take off say at half past six and they’d take off about half past seven. We’d be back about twelve or whatever. They’d be back at ten.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And in bed.
CB: Yeah. Really narking, yeah.
JQ: Yes.
CB: And they’d eaten all the fry up.
JQ: They didn’t do that.
CB: They didn’t get a fry up because it was before midnight.
JQ: What was the question you were asking?
CB: The question was how many ops you had to do before you qualified to go in on the main operation?
JQ: I’m not sure that there was, there was a particular time but -
CB: Because they monitored your progress did they, in the early stages, more than they would otherwise.
JQ: I don’t know.
[pause]
CB: We’re just looking at the logbook.
[pause]
CB: Let’s pick that up, that one up later John.
JQ: Yes. Ok.
CB: So how many, you joined the Pathfinders? They said after, say five that you would then go in on the main operations. So these were all at night were they?
JQ: Yeah. Yeah they were mainly.
CB: And a wide variety of -
JQ: No. No they weren’t, they weren’t all at night. There was the odd one or two as the war went on.
CB: Yes. And then so you did eight ops with 170. How many ops did you do with 582? That was more wasn’t it?
JQ: Yes it was.
CB: But while you’re looking that up when you joined 170 you had the first op was as second pilot.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: With Pathfinders did they do the same thing?
JQ: No. Straight in.
CB: Right. So when your Pathfinder activity came to an end, why was that?
JQ: The war finished.
CB: Right.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: And how did you feel at that point because it wasn’t the end of a complete tour of thirty ops was it?
JQ: No. It wasn’t. No.
CB: So did you feel short changed or what did you feel?
JQ: Glad the war was over. No. Didn’t worry too much really but, no. You’d got other things to think about and you’d come through. No. Sort of mixed feelings I suppose really. We were glad the war was won.
CB: Were there any major raids you went on as a Pathfinder?
JQ: Well it depends what you call a major raid.
CB: Well -
JQ: And I don’t know which one we could -
CB: On the really large cities. Berlin.
JQ: Oh I didn’t go to Berlin.
CB: Right.
JQ: The reason for that was they did actually try it before we joined Pathfinders and it wasn’t a success because they lost a lot of planes doing it because the fighters, their fighters were so much faster than the thing and you got all that time to get to Berlin.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And back again.
CB: No.
JQ: And Berlin was really Mosquitoes all the time.
CB: Right.
JQ: Towards the end when I -
CB: For Pathfinding.
JQ: Well for anything really.
CB: Right.
JQ: I think they did the odd one or two to Birmingham but er to Berlin but I went to the major cities. Hanover. I think that, when we were on our own, was Hanover.
CB: And the Ruhr.
JQ: Ruhr all the time because that’s near, that was near that was an easy one.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: I think the longest one I ever went on was a nine hour trip but I can’t remember where that was too. Somewhere in the north of Italy somewhere.
CB: Ah right. So it was Turin was it? The raids in Italy.
JQ: If I could spot it I would know.
CB: In the Lancaster you could fly over the Alps could you? Or did you have to fly around them?
JQ: I don’t think, I don’t think we flew anything direct. We usually went around things you know because if you were direct they knew you were coming.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Yeah. I’ve got one there. Seven and a half. That was Dessau, wherever that is. [pause] Mannheim. [pause] Essen of course [pause] Bremen. Dahlen. Hanover [?] Lutzendorf, wherever that is.
[pause]
CB: Oh a bit of variety. So now the war is finished. It’s the 8th of May 1945. What happened to the squadron and your flying?
JQ: Now wait a minute. Did you say the 8th of May 1945?
CB: The Europe, the war in Europe is finished.
[long pause]
JQ: Yes. That’s right. Well -
[long pause]
JQ: On the 4th of April we did an op to Lutzendorf.
CB: And you did some raids, some ops after that for the month because May, we’re talking about 8th of May and what you did after that?
JQ: Well on May the 3rd
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Much to our surprise because the war hadn’t finished they said, ‘You’re going food dropping.’
CB: Oh yes. Right. So you did Operation Manna in Holland.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
JQ: Nobody’d done it. Certainly not to our knowledge anyway. Two hundred feet. Which is low.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: To drop food at Rotterdam.
CB: Is this over the city or in the countryside?
JQ: In the countryside. Well near enough Rotterdam you know and -
CB: Is that in the bomb bay or was it chucking it out of the door?
JQ: No. No. What they, they sprung it on us really. We’d. I think the negotiations had begun before that but we didn’t know anything about it and we were still in in a bombing mode.
CB: Right.
JQ: You know, and we were still practicing for it as we always did and they said, ‘Right, you’re food dropping at two hundred feet and the Germans have promised not to fire.’ And we thought a likely story. So we set off on this thing. What they did was they had done a few tests and they’d found that it wasn’t really a practical proposition to sort of take a load of parachutes and have it dropping down by parachute. What they’d do would stick it in paper bags like a concrete bag that you’d have concrete powder in and stick stuff like powdered egg and grain and that sort of stuff you know. Flour and, in this bag and drop it from two hundred feet. Well of course the bag burst immediately so then they had a bright idea and they thought what if we put another paper bag around it what would happen and it didn’t. I presume if it went on top of a pole or something it would do.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JQ: You know. So then they got something like a football net behind a goal and they attached that to the bomb hooks or some of the bomb hooks in the bomb bay and then that gave something they could put all these bags in and then and we were able to close the bomb doors and then from then on it’s a bombing raid.
CB: Right.
JQ: You see, so it was done exactly the same. It was marked.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And from two hundred feet so we went over and did this and I was careful to put my altimeter, to put pressure on my altimeter highly correctly and off we went. When we got there, obviously being daylight, we could see all the aircraft and I was here and there was two or three aircraft in front of me, you know, only about a hundred yards away. There was one there and one there, one there, one there but slightly higher than me and I remember looking at my altimeter and thinking well they’re a bit high. I’m at two hundred feet. But of course your instruments vary a bit you know so I didn’t bother because I thought well I’m within twenty five, thirty feet of two hundred feet or they’re too high. One or the other you know. We’d come up to, up to the point and they released their bags. Well I had a hundred weight bags of this, that and the other flying past me like, you know I thought, God, you know I thought if one of those hits us we’re in for trouble.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JQ: You know there was nothing I could do about it.
CB: Yeah. You had to pull it back did you?
JQ: No. I didn’t. I just, we just kept going. I thought well even if I’d pulled back I couldn’t have missed one.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
JQ: So anyway it all went down and it was, the Germans didn’t fire and it was highly interesting to see what the Dutch had done because there were Union Jacks all over the place.
CB: Oh were there?
JQ: Where they got them I’ve no idea. You’d see kids in a school, what looked like a school playground and on the ground in the playground there’d be this flat on the floor and they were all waving like the clappers and all out in the, a right reception they gave us.
CB: Yeah. Fantastic.
JQ: But all the time we wondered whether the Germans would fire but they didn’t so so that was that and I think there were one or two. We only did one but there were one or two like that.
CB: So you only had one sortie. You didn’t have to fly at low level to get there did you? You just had to let down -
JQ: Yeah.
CB: At the last minute.
JQ: If I remember rightly. Yes. In fact I’m sure that’s right. My common sense tells me that. Not my memory.
CB: Yeah. And for the drop you don’t want too much speed so what did you haul back to?
JQ: I can’t remember.
CB: But you did, you did throttle back.
JQ: A thousand probably because I mean we were so used to flying up, up high.
CB: No. I didn’t mean that I meant the speed. So you don’t want to be going at two hundred miles an hour dropping bags do you? You -
JQ: Oh yeah we did.
CB: Did you pull it back?
JQ: Yeah. We did.
CB: And just keep it at -
JQ: No we well -
CB: A hundred and fifty or something.
JQ: No. I didn’t pull it back.
CB: Right.
JQ: In fact we got, I don’t remember any instructions to pull it back. I don’t think it would make any difference anyway.
CB: I was thinking about the impact.
JQ: Well, they got from two hundred feet anyway so -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: It would have slowed a bit by then wouldn’t they?
CB: Yeah.
JQ: It seemed to work anyway.
CB: So after that the war ends.
JQ: After that we got sent, I got sent to Dunkeswell.
CB: Oh yes.
JQ: Which is in Devon.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: And, oh I did do some, on May 15th I fetched some prisoners of war back from Juvincourt. Then I got sent to Dunkeswell.
CB: How many times, how many trips did you do? That was Operation Exodus wasn’t it? Bringing back POWs.
JQ: Yes it was. I’d forgotten that. Yes.
CB: How many trips of that did you do?
JQ: Only one.
CB: That was from Holland. Was it from Holland?
JQ: No. Well, Juvincourt. I can’t remember where Juvincourt is.
CB: Belgium.
JQ: Either France or Belgium I think.
CB: So you did one of those. So you went to Dunkeswell. What happened there?
JQ: Well we were supposed to be transferring on to Lincolns for the Japanese war.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: But it never happened. I did a bit of test flying there of Lancasters where I flew the Lancaster completely on my own. Usually with a couple of ground engineers or even one ground engineer because -
CB: What were you testing then?
JQ: The pilots had reported faults with -
CB: Ah.
JQ: With the thing and -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: It was either before they’d been put right or after or both, you know. I remember taking off in one thing and I checked all around outside and as soon, as soon as I took off one of the wings dropped so I immediately corrected it and I found instead of being like that, straight and level, I was flying like that and it worked perfectly well. The only thing about it was that I couldn’t get any farther that way I’d really got to go this way and go all the way around and -
CB: What did that turn out to be?
JQ: Well –
CB: A spanner left in the plane?
JQ: No. A trimming tab on the aileron.
CB: Right.
JQ: Was bent up too much or down too much. I can’t remember which way now. Something quite simple really but I mean you know unless you knew quite what, what you were doing.
CB: Right.
JQ: And if you panicked and tried turning even faster you might get yourself into trouble. I realised you couldn’t get that way anymore so I went this way.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: But of course when you’re coming in to land it doesn’t help you know you’re coming in to land -
CB: Of course.
JQ: Like this. Well if I want to go that way I’m going to use my rudders or something.
CB: I’ve had an elevator trimmer go myself and run out of stick movement.
JQ: Yes.
CB: When you don’t know what it is it’s disconcerting.
JQ: Yes.
CB: So after Dunkeswell then what? Did you have to, how long did you stay in the RAF before you were demobbed.
JQ: No longer than I could help after that, you know. Having made -
CB: Right. Was that the end of flying? Dunkeswell.
JQ: Decided that was it. That wasn’t the end of flying for me but -
CB: No. No. But in the RAF.
JQ: In the RAF.
CB: When was your last sortie with the RAF?
[long pause, turning pages]
JQ: It appears to be January the 18th 1946.
CB: Ok.
JQ: And I was actually, what happened then, after that, I was taken off flying. I got sent back to my old Little Staughton.
CB: Oh.
JQ: Which rather surprised me and I had an even, even bigger surprise when I got there because when I’d left it it was a thriving bomber station and when I came back there were about no more than a dozen people in the sergeant’s mess and about three of us in the officer’s mess and two of them had been there quite a while and wanted to go on leave and so one of them said, ‘Well, here’s the key to the bar. You’re in charge. Goodbye.’ [laughs]. So although I never had the title I was virtually CO. Only for a short time. Only about a fortnight, something like that and then, then I was demobbed.
CB: From Little Staughton.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: What did you do after that? Because you’d done engineering before you joined the RAF. So what did you do when you left the RAF?
JQ: Well I thought I didn’t want to go back to the job I was in because I’d started wrong anyway because I went into the drawing office and although I did alright in it and understood what I was doing I’d really started wrong because to go in to a drawing office you really ought to start on the floor, not in the drawing office, on the floor doing engineering stuff and I realised that that was the way I ought to have done it so I thought, no, I didn’t want to go back there. So I cast around for a bit and the Ministry of Labour, as it was in those days, wanted, they ran, ran a course. They realised there were a lot of people in the services, particularly officers who had gone in at a young age as I had and hadn’t got any experience of business. So they thought well if we give them some experience of business perhaps we can slot them in to the employment lot and they’ll know what they’re doing you see and they’ll have caught up a bit so I thought well that’s a good idea so I applied. They didn’t take everybody but I applied and they accepted me and I went down to Worcester and it was a three week course if I remember rightly. They taught us, well, quite a lot of stuff. Accountancy. You know, a bit of this and a bit of that and a bit of the other and quite good. And then if you wanted to you could apply then for a speciality course which was another three weeks and that you could be put out with a firm and they could teach you about what went on at their firm and if they liked you or wanted you and what not they could take you on and possibly would take you on. So I thought I’ll have a go at that so I had a go at that and went through all that and, and then said, ‘I’d like to,’ oh apart from the people who you were with for the speciality, no wait a minute, yes, apart from the people you were with on the speciality course the ministry, if they didn’t want you the Ministry of Labour would find you a thing. And the chap, chaps that I was with didn’t, didn’t want me so I applied to the Ministry of Labour for them to find me. So they said, ‘Oh yes. We’ll find you somewhere.’ Nothing happened. And then I queried it a bit and they sent me to someplace that, you know, I thought blimey if I come here I’m really going down you know. You know. Real Dickensian stuff you know.
CB: Oh. Sweatshop.
JQ: So I thought well this is a right thing so I said, I had a bright idea and I went around and I said, ‘Can you give me a pile of your leaflets?’ And they said, ‘What do you want a pile of leaflets for?’ And I said, ‘I’ll find my own.’ Well they thought that was a jolly good idea. Saved them a lot of bother you see. So they gave me a pile of these leaflets and I went around to people I thought might be likely and asked to see somebody and most of the time they didn’t because they didn’t, you know didn’t know what I was about so I’d leave a leaflet and what not and one of them turned up. It was in printing and my grandfather as I told you was in printing.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: So I I went there and I did quite well.
CB: Locally.
JQ: I did, I went into the office, I didn’t go to the actual printing. I went into the office and I took up, doing a night course on costing which I did. Printers had a costing system so I did that and the people who were running this who were the British Master Printers Federation they, when I’d finished they said, ‘Well we’re short of a teacher in Birmingham. You wouldn’t like to do it would you?’ Because I’d, it was three certificates you got and I’d got all three so I said yes. So I taught that for three years until I got tired of it. And then one day I called on, oh I got on to the sales side of that, for that thing then and they gave me a car, a small car and then I called on a customer one day and it was a woman customer and she said, ‘My managing director wants to know if you know anybody that’s interested in a job in printing.’ So I said, ‘Well I’m in printing.’ She said. ‘Yes. That’s why I said it.’ So I said, ‘Who is it?’ And she said, ‘I don’t know he hasn’t told me.’ So I applied for it and got it and it was for a big printing company Sir Joseph Causton.
CB: Oh right.
JQ: And so I applied for that and I got that and the rest is history. I did, did quite well and they gave me a car, and then a bigger car, and a bigger car and then I thought well I’m driving a lot around in this car I could fly around. So I said, I said to the sales director, ‘What about it?’ He said, ‘Good idea. Yeah. Why not.’ So I did that a bit and then, and I’d got my own aeroplane by then.
CB: Oh had you?
JQ: So I thought well if I did use it for business they paid the expenses. I thought well they might as well own it why don’t I sell it to them? So I sold it to them the aeroplane.
CB: Oh did you?
JQ: And used it on the proviso I could use it for private means if necessary provided I paid the costs so they agreed to that and then we were taken over and I ran into trouble then because we were, we got in to a sort of recession and they said, ‘Well we’ll have to cut the aeroplane down,’ So I bought it back off them and used it privately and in the end I found that I wasn’t using it as much as I was paying. It was costing me in those days three thousand pounds a year if I never moved it out of the hangar.
CB: Really. Crikey.
JQ: So if I moved it out the hangar but I did quite a lot of things like I found that flying for business was a lot more demanding than flying for the RAF apart, you know, in the war of course.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: Because the RAF I mean they’re sensible. I mean I can remember being up in the, being up in my aircraft over Norfolk way on one occasion flying on business and I looked down and there was all these highly specialised aircraft and I can’t think what they were now.
CB: RAF ones.
JQ: RAF ones. Lightnings.
CB: Oh yes.
JQ: I don’t mean the old Lightning that they had.
CB: Right.
JQ: I mean the new ones.
CB: P1 yeah.
JQ: And they were all on the ground. I was up in the blinking air tossing around like mad and things like that you know and I found that you had to be, you had to be a lot more smart as well because in the RAF you got things like defrosting and that sort of thing and you can’t afford to buy that sort of thing in the light aircraft. Apart from the weight. So in the end I found that I wasn’t using it as much as I’d think so I thought I’d better give it up so I did. And in a sense, in a sense I’m still a pilot because although I haven’t got a licence -
CB: Yeah.
JQ: You know in all this post that comes through your door, all these catalogues I get, I get it all the time or when it comes to the door I pile it here and I pile it there.
CB: Nice one. Nice one. Nicely said. So when did you retire eventually from the printing world?
JQ: I think I was about oh I did, I have left a bit out which I forgot for a minute because I went, this Sir Joseph Causton and the aeroplane whatnot I retired from Sir Joseph Causton, buying my car off them as I, as I went, at a cheap rate.
CB: Right.
JQ: And I hadn’t been retired that long and a chap rang me and he said, ‘John,’ he said, ‘I’ve got somebody who wants me as, as a salesman,’ he said, ‘But I don’t want it. I wondered if you’d like to start up again,’ you see. So I thought I’d investigate this. So I did and I thought I don’t want to be employed any more. I’ve had my time but anyway I went to see them. They were in [pause] what’s that new town down south? Down your way.
CB: What, Milton Keynes.
JQ: Milton Keynes. They were in Milton Keynes or near it. Yeah. It was Milton Keynes. I went down and I said, ‘Well,’ you know, ‘I am interested but I don’t really want to be employed by you. I’ll employ myself and you can pay me a –
CB: They could pay you a fee.
JQ: A fee for it.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: So that’s what I did for some years and did alright at that too. So that’s it really.
CB: When did you eventually -
JQ: So I must have been about –
CB: Retire?
[pause]
JQ: Seventy, seventy, seventy two. Something like that.
CB: I’ve just got two extra questions that you prompted me with earlier.
JQ: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: One was to do with baked bean tins.
JQ: Baked bean tins. Yes. Yes. We had a thing apart from the elsan toilet that we’d got in the back like every other Lancaster.
CB: In the Lancaster. Yes.
JQ: We didn’t actually use it to be quite honest. But then we never had the same Lancaster anyway. You could get one or the other or whatnot. But, but people did use it but we we had that the engineer organised this. He always used to have a baked bean tin and where he got them from or why we could get baked beans during the war I’ve no idea, but this used to be passed around. You know, anyone who wanted a pee you didn’t have to get up. He’d come along with the baked bean tin you see but of course it gets full so he had to, and so if possible it was kept until we were over the target and then tipped down the window chute.
CB: Just as a bonus for the target. Yeah.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: And the other was the cracked -
JQ: Oh well that was, that was -
CB: Bomb.
JQ: After the war while everything was still going but even though the war had finished, you know, this was at Little Staughton and we still did, you know, practicing because we, I mean the war with Japan was still going and we were sort of getting ready for that but you know everybody was still flying and that sort of thing but not in anger and the CO called me to see him one day so I went and saw him and he said, ‘Quine,’ he said, ‘We have a bomb in our bomb dump which has got a crack in it,’ he said, ‘And when the,’ he said, ‘It’s got a crack in it and the explosive is seeping out through the crack and crystallising,’ he said, ‘And when it gets into a crystallised state it gets a bit unstable and the bomb’s liable to go off,’ he said, ‘And we’d rather not a bomb go off in our bomb dump if you don’t mind,’ he said. ‘So what we’re going to do is we’re doing to load it into a Lancaster and ask you to fly it and drop it in the sea in the appropriate place,’ because there was an appropriate place for everybody to drop stuff if they had to so you know wondering why he’d picked on me for this job you know so I went around and I think it was something like a Sunday morning and there wasn’t a fat lot going on, I went around to see the crew half of whom were still in bed cause they didn’t want to do much on a Sunday and they they were highly delighted to get out of bed for this thing you see. So for some reason or other which I can’t remember I had to go up to the guardroom so I went up to the guardroom and the military policeman there who everybody loves as you know said, ‘Morning sir. Lovely morning.’ So I said, ‘Yes it is a nice morning.’ He said, ‘Nice night, nice day for a flight. Are you going for a flight sir?’ I said, ‘Yes, I am as a matter of fact.’ ‘I’d love to come with you.’ So without telling him why we were going I said, ‘Yes certainly. You can come with me if you want to.’ And he said, ‘Well I shall have to ask my superior.’ I said, ‘Well go and ask him then.’ So he disappeared in the back and he came back about a minute later and he said, ‘Yes that’s alright. He said I can come.’ I said, ‘Right 2 o’clock at dispersal.’ I told him where. So off we go and just before two the bomb’s been duly loaded. We could see that because the bomb doors were still open. You didn’t close them until, until you were about to taxi off. I didn’t tell him why and he didn’t ask why either or where we were going. I told the crew not to tell him and we took off and as soon as we’d taken off we told him and he went white. And so we flew out and dropped it without any trouble at all really. Quite gently we did it, I flew it out ‘cause I didn’t -
CB: I bet. ‘Cause none of you wanted to join your maker did you?
JQ: And of course I hadn’t inspected it and in any case I wouldn’t have known what sort of state it was in by looking at it, not being an expert on these things. So anyway, we dropped it and of course then he got his own back.
CB: Oh.
JQ: ‘Cause he’s a hero now you see. So, I mean, ‘I’ve been in an aircraft with a wonky bomb,’ you see.
CB: Amazing. Final question really and that is after the war a lot of people, air crew were sent on tours of Germany they called the Cooks Tours.
JQ: Cooks Tours.
CB: Did you do any Cooks Tours?
JQ: Yes. Did those.
CB: So who were the people who went? What was a Cook’s Tour and who went on it?
JQ: We flew out to the Ruhr as a rule. In fact it might have been all the time to the Krupp’s works at Essen which was a right sight. You should have seen it. It was a tangled mass. We really clobbered it. No doubt about that. And we were cleared to fly at two hundred feet and we’d get there and usually what I did was do steep turns around it because when you do a steep turn you can look down and got a really good view of it and most people seemed to enjoy that and having done that we just came back again.
CB: Yeah. But who were the people you took?
JQ: Now, the people we took were in the main were ground crew and they enjoyed it but we ran out of ordinary ground crew. I don’t know how many I did. I didn’t do that many but I did do some so we took some WAAFs. They decided they’d let the WAAFs come. We didn’t organise it so they were provided with sick bags and we did exactly the same as we always did. We went around, steep turns, around, out comes the sick bags whoo [laughs] and then we came back again and I think, I think if I remember rightly I think I think it was one of those, this business I’ve told you of the bomb aimer going to sleep when he was supposed to be map reading I think that was why we were at -
CB: Right.
JQ: Two hundred feet.
CB: Did you, how many did you take at a time and how did they actually get the experience of looking?
JQ: I think they enjoyed it and they all -
CB: But how many would you take at a time?
JQ: Oh it wouldn’t be, it wasn’t many. Four or five. And they’d be up, standing beside me and I’ve got a feeling some of them went down.
CB: And behind you. Yeah.
JQ: You’d get two at the side I think, to watch. To watch. I think you might get two in the bomb aimer’s position. I can’t remember exactly but I know we had some at the side and I think that’s where the others must have gone but we never had more than four or five.
CB: And they just sat on the floor.
JQ: Oh they sat on the floor on the way to and from.
CB: But your full crew was there was it?
JQ: Oh yeah.
CB: Yeah.
JQ: We had a full crew.
CB: Right. Ok. What was the most memorable part of your career in the RAF?
JQ: Blimey what a question [pause]. I can’t tell you. It’s all pretty memorable actually.
CB: Well you’ve done really well. So, John Quine thank you.
[machine paused]
JQ: The war. They didn’t look out we just -
JB: You just packed them in did you?
CB: How many could you carry in a -
JQ: They just sat on the floor in the back.
JB: Yeah.
JQ: And we gave them blankets.
JB: Right.
JQ: Which we took with us. I think it was about thirty or something like that.
JB: Really.
JQ: Because we hadn’t got, we hadn’t got any bombs on of course.
JB: No. No.
JQ: That’s why we were able to take a weight like that but I think, I don’t think they were in much comfort.
JB: No.
CB: But they just wanted to get back.
JQ: Yeah.
JB: So why were they special that they got -
JQ: Oh we never found out why.
JB: No.
JQ: Never heard.
CB: No. If you take the Buckingham, the airfields at Westcott and Oakley received fifty seven thousand POWs.
JQ: That’s amazing isn’t it?
CB: Yeah. In that operation.
JQ: Yeah.
CB: Operation Exodus.
JQ: Yes. I remember the name Exodus.
CB: Yeah. Normally a Lancaster could take twenty five but that was really pushing it.
JQ: Well it could have been twenty five. It could have been. I said thirty but, you know I’m guessing a bit but I thought of something just now that I hadn’t told you. What question did you ask John?
JB: How many prisoners of war could you get -
JQ: Oh that’s right, you did.
JB: In a Lancaster.
JQ: Yeah. Now, I can’t just think. If I think in the next few moments I’ll -
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Interview with John Wakeford Quine
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-08-05
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Sound
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AQuineJW160805, PQuineJW1603
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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02:48:07 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
John volunteered for the Royal Air Force as a pilot. He went to Lord’s cricket ground, followed by the Initial Training Wing at Scarborough. He spent 10 hours on Tiger Moths in Carlisle. After a short time at RAF Heaton Park in Manchester, John went to Moncton in Canada, subsequently training for six months in various places in America. He returned to RAF Harrogate, followed by RAF Windrush where John learnt to fly on Oxfords. At RAF Peplow, he flew Wellingtons and was picked by a crew to be their pilot. RAF Lindholme followed, where John spent some time on Halifaxes, Wellingtons, and then Lancasters.
John had his commissioning interview on the same day as his wedding and joined 170 Squadron at RAF Hemswell in December 1944 where he carried out eight operations. He describes one of the eight operations to Bottrop when they were hit by anti-aircraft fire but managed to return safely.
John volunteered for the Pathfinders and was posted to 582 Squadron at RAF Little Staughton, flying Lancasters. He explains how they initially acted in a supporter role before progressing to dropping flares and markers.
John took part in Operation Manna in Rotterdam and fetched some prisoners of war from Juvincourt in France. He then went to RAF Dunkeswell where he test flew some Lancasters before returning to RAF Little Staughton from where he was demobbed. He describes the Cook’s tours he did for groundcrew and WAAFs.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Devon
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Manchester
England--Scarborough
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Canada
United States
New Brunswick
New Brunswick--Moncton
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Bottrop
Netherlands
Netherlands--Rotterdam
170 Squadron
582 Squadron
anti-aircraft fire
bomb dump
bombing
Cook’s tour
coping mechanism
crewing up
Halifax
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
love and romance
Operation Exodus (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Dunkeswell
RAF Harrogate
RAF Hemswell
RAF Lindholme
RAF Little Staughton
RAF Peplow
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/650/8920/ATrentKL160112.1.mp3
ad84d3cea1d3ea2508452abb41103142
Dublin Core
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Title
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Trent, Kenneth
K L Trent
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Trent, KL
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Kenneth Lionel Trent DFC (1922 - 2018, 176283 Royal Air Force) and a photograph. He flew operations as a pilot with 576, 625, 617 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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KT: Put your hand up when you –
CB: Yeah.
KT: Are fed up with what I’m saying.
CB: Right.
KT: Or if I’m saying too much of one particular subject. Is it running?
CB: So, my name is Chris Brockbank and we’re in St Helier and we’re just going to talk with Ken Trent about his experiences in the war as a bomber pilot and he did two tours. So if you’d like to start from your earliest recollections please Ken.
KT: Well my first [pause] I started — the first thing I can remember I should say is sitting in the back of a London taxi. I would be how old? Four? Three? Something like that. With my sister and my father. It was in the spring. It was a beautiful day and the pram hood was open on the taxi and we were — it was — but it wasn’t a happy journey. We were going to the [Will Abingdon?] Wing of the Middlesex Hospital to see my mum who was seriously ill. But God looked down on her and she got better and lived another nineteen years which was — but she still died at a very young age of fifty eight. Still, we survived this and then we come to the school. The first school I went to with my sister was St Peter’s, funnily enough. I go to a St Peter’s Church now. And it was across Goodmayes Park. We lived in Becontree and it was across Goodmayes Park and it was a little church school. My mum showed us the way there two or three times and of course in these days you could. Children were quite safe walking around and they used to play in the streets and all this sort of stuff whereas today you know it’s not quite so safe. Well, after we learned the way we used to, we walked to school and we did this for a few days and then we thought it would be a good idea — it was better to play in the park. We had to go cross Goodmayes Park and so we stayed in the park. The biggest problem was to find out the time so that, because we didn’t have clocks but we didn’t want to turn up at home at the wrong time. So as young as we were we weren’t completely stupid. But nevertheless it was only maybe ten or fifteen pupils that went out. Two didn’t turn up. They telephoned and my mum said, ‘Well, they were —’ and of course, so she goes in the park, she finds us and we were in a lot of trouble. She wouldn’t hit us or anything like that but we were in serious trouble. We never did it again. Well we got a little bit older. My mum and dad had a shop in 131 Becontree Avenue and they sold everything and it had a sub post office there. And you know [pause] I’m drying up for the moment.
CB: We can stop for a mo.
KT: Yeah. Just for a second.
[Recording paused]
KT: Ok. I’ve got it. We had a — my dad was a sub post master there. Now, the area was where they had cleared out the slums from East London. And basically I’m an East Londoner and I’m very happy about it. Very proud to be one. And a good Cockney as they say. Anyway, my dad sent me as we grew up and I became old enough he sent me to the local council school and after about a month or a couple of months I came home and the language was not too charming. I don’t think it was swearing but the accent, you know. It was pretty broad. Getting very broad and he didn’t fancy this. So he got me organised in a school in Loughton as a boarder. And the word Loughton School for boys. There weren’t many boarders there. The school would be something like two hundred pupils. There was, there were four boarders and we ate all our meals with the headmaster on the big table and he really eyed over our behaviour and table manners and etcetera etcetera. So at least I learned how to eat in company. Then he had a daughter. Cynthia. I can remember when we were having sausages for breakfast one morning and she said, ‘Daddy do they shoot sausages?’ and you know, it’s kind of funny we thought at the time. Anyway, Cynthia and I were good mates and of course we got caught in the rhododendrons. We thought we weren’t being seen. Finding out the differences between ourselves which I suppose is quite normal of kids at that age. All very innocent. Then following that I mean I was at the school for quite a few years but at one stage and it was at the end when I was ready to go. To to be moved on to another school that I had, we were playing I’m the king of castle, get down you dirty rascal and they pushed me off and I, my feet got caught. I fell down. A kid was running by and he kicked me on the head quite accidentally and so I’m laid out. And it developed into a haemorrhage. An internal haemorrhage in my head. And it showed itself. It was right at the end of term and it showed itself during the holidays. Anyway, they got over all that and or I did but I was in bed for about seven, eight weeks and I wasn’t allowed to get up and I had to keep as still as possible but it all got better. We then, the next thing that happened they entered me into Framlingham College in Suffolk. I think you could call it The Albert Memorial College and it’s in Framlingham and there’s a massive statue of Prince Albert there. But it was normally known as Framlingham College. Well, I went there and I was just on the edge from — I was just a little bit right at the end of junior school so they put me straightaway, this is in the Christmas term and they put me straightaway into the senior school. Now, to be — I completely and utterly wasted my parent’s money. I didn’t work. Apart from maths and arithmetic I, because mainly the headmaster used to take some of the lessons and I got on extremely well with him. Mr Whitworth was his name. And he sailed. And by this time I was very interested in sailing. I’ve been going on about the school but I haven’t talked about the holidays. And I’ll go on with them in a minute. So we go back to holidays. My parents had a little, you would call it a wooden shack on the beach at St Osyth which is known as Toosie St Osyth. There’s a priory there. Well if you go straight down onto the beach onto the, towards the sea, it was on the sea wall. It had about four rooms. It was a wooden shack and it was kind of built on stilts because the front of it was on the ground and the back of it was on stilts because the sea wall was underneath. It was wonderful for us children and there was my sister who was a couple of years older than me, myself and my cousin, Jean. And we, in Easter and summer we were there [noise on microphone] Ok? Yeah. We were there more or less all the time. And our parents would come down and to see us. Now, you imagine three kids and we were all very responsible as it turned out but you wouldn’t think we would be. But we had a ball. We learned how to be self sufficient. We did our own cooking at this very young age. We had a few shillings. We could go. I mean a few pounds I expect but I can’t remember, but there was a fish and chips, or a chippie as they say today, in a hut as you, as you drive over into the area. As you arrive. And we’d go there for fish and chips sometimes. But we, and my parents would come down. Only one of them because the other one would have to be in the shop. Fine. Now, we’ll go back to school. The school, when you get to Framlingham the majority of the pupils came from very wealthy families and some of them [pause] Barry Grant was a pal. He turned out to be a pal of mine. And right at the start he was a wonderful, wonderful musician who had, until he’d got to Framlingham had never had a lesson. But he was in demand. They lived in the Leigh area. You know in Southend and Leigh on the east coast. And he was in the area. He was in. He was required by the cinemas to play the organ in between the films. I think they were Compton organs that used to rise up out of the ground. So when I say he was a wonderful musician this was untrained natural ability. Of course he had his lessons also. You know, music lessons at Fram. So, you would, to give an example you would have a boy, a senior boy who’s got his driving licence or maybe with an L plate would drive to school at the beginning of term in a posh car. Little car. And then they’d take the trunk off the back, in. And the chauffeur would drive it back home. Well, I mean, you know I come out from the East End. My dad’s running an East End little shop and this was another world. Something I’d never ever come across and couldn’t believe but I wanted it. But I still didn’t work at school. I was in all sorts of trouble. Now, the boys. The majority of them, the parents, they were able to ring up the local town Framlingham, the grocer’s shop and get whatever they wanted delivered and they could put it in their tuck box. But we couldn’t do anything like this. We got a shilling a week. And you know their tuck boxes were full. Ours were empty after about a week. Anyway, I had to do something about this and I discussed it with Barry. And we decided that we would go in to the booze and fags business. And we [pause] first of all you’ve got to get out of the school. Well now the school locks up and when its locked they have to have provision for fire. And so by all exit doors there was a little box with a glass front and a key hanging in it and you smashed the glass front and opened the door. So I pinched the key before the end of term. I unscrewed the front of the box. Didn’t break the glass. Put any old key in there. Pinched their key. We put it all back as it was. And then when I’m home our next door, the shop next door was, I used to call him Uncle Dick. Dick Linnington. And Dick was, had been shipwright. Had been a sailor. Had been at sea all his life and I suppose he packed up around about fifty. And he’d started this shop. And amongst other things he cut keys. And it was all done with files. No machines. So he cut me a key. And when I got back I put the proper key back and my key fitted alright. And then we had a large bag that we could cart between us and so off we went to Framlingham Castle. And you’d walk around the back of the school. We came out at the back, go between the tuck shop and the chapel and then you went over a stile into a field and you could walk straight across a couple of fields and you were near Framlingham Castle. And right tucked under, just by the castle was a boozer. A pub. And we went in there and we bought as much as we could afford because I didn’t have much money. As much beer as we could, in bottles. It was just draught beer. The cheapest. In any, in any bottles that they had and they had screw tops so, you know, you could reuse them. And it might have stout. It might have light ale. Brown ale. Bitter. Or whatever. But it was all the same beer regardless. And we had a few packets of fags and we took them back and we found, gradually, carefully found a few customers. And they had to be warned to be very very careful of the cigarette butts. But the bottles — we wanted them back. Well, we actually, we were doing very well with this. We were getting something like between four and five shillings a week each. And in those days I mean our shilling a week, no we would get something like about five shillings a week between us. About two and six. Half a crown each. Which, when you consider that our weekly money, you know, pocket money was a shilling. We multiplied it. Anyway, we were doing alright. Well when we dragged this lot back and go down the corridor into the chapel and Barry of course. I was in the choir and when I was sitting in the choir I could see him pumping the organ and I had seen him take a sip out of the communion wine before now. Anyway, we stored the stuff in the organ and I mean at times Barry played the organ and then I was pumping it. We had quite a nice little business but nobody ever found out and we escaped. Now, I expect you know I’m writing a book and I wonder, I just wonder what they’re going to think when they, when they read this. Anyway, apart from that I was lazy. I was quite good at tennis, table tennis and squash. I mean there were everything was available there. From swimming, you know. There was rugby in the winter. In the Christmas term. Hockey. And cricket of course in the next two terms. And then there was riding. Tennis. All sorts of stuff on the side. Ok. Well we get to the end. The day before I left school I got the stick from prefects for smoking. I mean me. Getting caught smoking and I’d been so careful. Nobody had been rumbled with cigarettes. Well they may have been rumbled but they never — they didn’t leave butts around. We’d got them all, the smokers, pretty well trained who were our customers. But then I got caught. Stick off prefects is not a very pleasant thing. You, it’s at 9.30. After prayers. And you were in your pyjamas and you go down to the set room and it was four strokes. I think it says six in the book but that’s a bit of an exaggeration. It was four strokes and they, the prefects, there were two of them. One of them who I can remember distinctly. His name was Bellamy and he was in the first eleven as a fast bowler. Well, they would have a run up of about seven or eight, ten paces and run in and lay it on as hard as ever they could. And by the time you’d got four strokes — the biggest thing you mustn’t make a noise. I mean you’ve got to show, ‘Sod them. They’re not going to get me.’ And you’ve got to shut your mouth and keep it shut and just let them do it. As the thing that you just let them do it. Let’s do it. Just get there and just accept it. And of course when you’ve finished if you’re lucky you’ve just got massive bruising with welts on your bum. And if you’re unlucky you might have a little drop of blood. But you know I know this sounds in this day and age absolutely terrible but it did me no harm at all. And I realised that you know the rules. You break the rules you go for what you’ve got to get. But the people it may have damaged are the people that were dishing it out because they looked after their canes and they got anti-shock absorbers and stuff you know which I don’t think was very good training but nevertheless it happened. And that was the system as it was ninety, eighty years ago. Right. I left. And I left [pause] and for the winter term 1939 war was declared. I got myself a job. No. That’s really not true. I was lucky enough to get a job because my dad knew the chairman of John Knights. The soap company. And the job was really — I was obviously going in the services so it was a kind of semi, it was, it was a fill in and I must have been there for quite some time but all of a sudden all the men disappeared and the ladies, girls and ladies and women were taking over the running. It was a fantastic effort that they put in and they made a wonderful job. It wasn’t long before — and the other thing the company moved from Silvertown to Loughton. Strangely enough Loughton where I’d been at school. In a very large house with a lot of outbuildings and the office was all run from there and they’d fixed it all up. And I worked very very hard. I would stay the night in the big building all night. I camped in the big building and I had to keep — you know, things were different. There was a war on and everybody had to try and do their bit and I suddenly found although I didn’t do any work at school at all. Terribly lazy. I suddenly found there was an object in this and I could work until the job was done. And I did. And I worked. I worked all the hours and sometimes up to 10 o’clock at night and then I would camp down in this big house and there were — I mean I wasn’t the only one. There would be one or two others camping there as well. This was the spirit of England at that time. Anyway, it wasn’t very long before I found myself running the London forward section. The forward meaning arranging the invoicing and statements. No. I don’t think statements. Invoicing and organising deliveries to people in the London, to shops in the London area. Well at the time I was still there when the Channel Islands were taken over and although it didn’t affect me there was a big panic going on because of the money that was owing and orders to the various places. Nevertheless, I was also a member of the — what did they call it? Cadets. RAF cadets. Locally in Ilford. And we used to go there and you know I would be about eighteen and I thought I ought to join up and I would have only just been eighteen because it was December. And my eighteenth birthday would be in November. And so I applied to join the RAF. What as? I said pilot. And I really regretted not working at home, you know. At school I should say. I really regretted that because if I had I would have had no problems and I was thinking I’d never pass any of the exams. I’ll never pass the exams. Nevertheless, in just a few weeks I’m called to Uxbridge and I go down there and the exams were not that hard. And I did the exams. That was fine. Then we had to have an interview and I thought — well if they see my school record what chance have I got? It’s going to be absolutely dreadful. And you know this is something. Anyway, I’m worried. I wanted to be a pilot so much. I, eventually there was about seven or eight of us outside a room and you know, somebody had gone in and then he had come out and he said, ‘Trent. You’re next.’ So, I went in. Stood to attention and there was a bloke. Immaculately dressed. About ten years older than me. A bit older than me and he started off, ‘Where did you go to school?’ I said ‘Loughton School for Boys.’ And then I moved on as I got older. Oh I called it a prep school. It wasn’t a prep school but it sounded better, Loughton School, Prep School for Boys. Anyway, then — and the the next school? I said, ‘Framlingham College.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Which house?’ I said Garrett. ‘Oh’, he said, ‘I was in Garrett House as well.’ I got no problem. I’m in. and he said, you know, and all we talked about was school and Rupe and Pop and Colonel and all the other masters and stuff and those were their nicknames. Anyway, so I’m in. I go home and just a short time after that — maybe a month six weeks, I get a [pause] I, yes I think I went, no — I went to Uxbridge. And then from Uxbridge, there was a bunch of us, we were given railway warrants to Torquay. Number 9 RW. Receiving Wing. And we arrived down there and they kitted us out with all the stuff and were starting to march us up and down. Showing us how to make your bed for the daytime so that all the sheets are folded in a certain way and the blankets and all the, well for want of a better word the bull shit that they have in the services. And there they also I mean they started the marching and this, that and the other and also polishing your bloody boots. All the equipment that was issued including a thing called a hussif and the hussif was your needle and stuff like this for repairing your clothes and the word derives from housewife. Anyway, we also had loads of injections which made us feel a bit rough. But after, it was only about a week, seven or eight days we were posted to [pause] I can’t remember the number and I’ve got it in the book but it was an IT, Initial Training Wing at Stratford On Avon which is a beautiful lovely town. And we were in the Shakespeare Hotel right on the top of, you know, the top hotel in there. The only trouble is they’d taken out all the goodies but it was still a lovely place to be. We started the lectures. You know, there’s maths and navigation, theory of flight, instruments, map reading. You know, general things you would think you would need. And I worked hard. And, you know, just as an aside we used to church parade on a Sunday and I’m not sure if we got — I think we got a half a crown a day. That’s the seventeen and six a week and because I wanted to survive the war I thought it might be a good idea to give God a good donation every Sunday. So he got five bob of my seventeen and six every week. And I don’t know. Silly. But I did it, you know. That’s how you feel, and I’ve always attended church when possible and still do. Anyway, so, mind you with the behaviour things you wonder [laughs] you know. But there’s got to be some bad Christians as well as good ones. Anyway, so I went on from there. We had the exam. And all of sudden there was a massive panic. And before you could say, ‘Pack your bags. Pack your bags.’ Go to West Kirby. Or is it East Kirby? It’s by Liverpool. And we are — West Kirby isn’t it? Yes. And we are put aboard the Leopoldville which was a dirty old Polish tramp steamer. And we’re off. We’re off. We don’t know where we’re going. The boat’s going. But we wind up in Iceland. Now, on the way there was one big room with camps [pause] with what do you call them?
CB: Hammocks. Hammocks.
KT: Hammocks. That’s right. I couldn’t get the word. With hammocks. And underneath there were tables and underneath there’s the deck or the floor. And there were — guys were spread in the hammocks, on the tables, under the tables on the floor. And do you know I think being a bit on the selfish side I found a little corner for myself in a corridor and I slept. It was only a few days. Three, four or five days. And I slept — and in the corridor. Well one morning the old, you know, weather had gone a bit sour. The sea was getting up and the old tub was rolling all over the place and in the morning when I went into the big room there was about, I don’t know how much, a foot of water, a couple of feet of water and as the boat was rolling it was sloshing from one side to the other. Because they hadn’t secured the portholes properly and so every now and again until they got them secured they had like full steam hose. You know. And of course there was now a big dry out required and one thing or another. But I was happy in my little corner and I was very lucky. I must tell you the toilets. They were so absolutely abysmal. It was a plank. A big plank with several holes cut in it and it was on the port quarter. Secured. With hand holds. That’s where you performed in front of each other. But it was quite efficient because they just used to hose the deck off and it all used to go over the side so that, because the boat didn’t have sufficient toilet arrangements for the people, the number aboard. Anyway, we got to Iceland. We get unloaded and we go inland to a place called Helgafell. We were, we were sleeping in half built Nissen huts. We’d all got camp beds. Not camp beds. What do you call them? Sleeping bags and all this stuff and our kit bags and this and we slept in these Nissen huts. You know, one end, the end we were in, one end was open but there was lots of us and we were all started on the floor. And then when you woke up in the morning you weren’t cold and you’d all squash together in one big lump of human flesh and everybody was warm and it was ok. It wasn’t as bad as it sounds. We ate there. Well one of the things in Iceland they’ve got hot springs and of course we’d got to have a go at that. It mean it was not warm and it wasn’t the middle of winter. It would be spring. It would be but it was a bit of snow around but not — it wasn’t too bad. So we were in there. All of us. Oh about twenty. Twenty, thirty of us. All out of our hut swimming. Hot. Beautiful. Smashing. And then all of a sudden a whole load of young girls turned up and they all get in. They’re all swimming. And they’re in the nude as well. So we couldn’t get out of the water and it was tricky. Anyway, we get back into town and we are put aboard a large liner and I don’t know the name of it. It was not the QE, the Queen Elizabeth. We went to Halifax. We’re stuck on a train for five days going to Swift Current which was where our EFTS — Elementary Flying Training. The journey was long. The trains are enormous. They are over a mile long. The whole lot makes England’s train system look as if its Hornby. Anyway, when we got to Winnipeg [pause] no. It was Trenton. I beg your pardon. It definitely wasn’t Winnipeg. It was Trenton. They had laid on, the powers that be had laid on a dance and they’d got a load of local girls with finger, finger stuff to eat and this, that and the other. And it was all very kind and lovely but then the Canadians are lovely because basically my family are all Canadian bar my sister and myself. So, then we eventually get to Swift Current and then we start with the lessons and then you know, you work hard and the actual work, the whole thing was easy. We had an interesting character on our course called Jimmy Edwards who I expect most of you have heard of and know. He did, at the beginning of the lectures before the lecturer had turned up he would stand in the front with his cane and doing exactly the same thing as he did after the war on television and in the theatre for millions of pounds. Anyway, that was Jimmy. The interesting bit is the first time you fly. And you go around. I can’t remember the name of my instructor. He was not liked. The other two pupils. There were three. He had three pupils. The other two asked to be exchanged, to change. To change. I really got on with him. He was, for me, just the right guy and he takes you around. There’s a Pitot head and you check your Pitot tube. You have to make sure the Pito tube doesn’t have a sock over it to look after it. And you check the ailerons, rudder, elevators and general look around and you look in the cockpit. This is the first time I’d ever seen. You know, you can imagine the excitement. Got the flying gear on. All the business. And you look and he was explaining the bits and pieces. And needle, ball and air speed is the basic thing for a Tiger. Anyway, we get in and he takes the thing off. And he instructed me to hold the stick with — between my fingers and not with a grip. And I suppose this is in case you freeze on it. Anyway, at take off and he showed me how to fly straight and level. You know, you’ve got to get the needle and the ball and you’ve got to maintain the same airspeed. And you know, it was not difficult and it wasn’t very long. Maybe ten minutes, quarter of an hour before I got the hang of just flying straight and level. I hadn’t done any turns or anything like that. And he said, ‘Now ease the stick forward. Ease the stick forward. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.’ And he said, ‘Now you’re doing about a hundred and twenty. Now ease it back. Back. Back. Come on. Back. Back.’ Bingo. We did a loop. And I did it. So the first time I ever got in an aeroplane I did a loop. And that to me is something. Anyway, then he shows you how to, you know rate one turns and turning. To give you the whole description would take a long time. So we go on, come in and land and he shows me how to land and you know he does this three or four times and then he lets me have a go with the, with the stick and he’s kind of guiding me. But anyway, this is kind of normal. The way we trained. And this went on for a while. Over a few days, maybe a couple of weeks and I can’t remember the hours. I’ve got them written down. I can’t remember, I think they were just short of four hours. Three forty, three fifty hours I had done at the time and I’d just done a landing and I’d taxied to turn into wind again to take off and in my book I said, “God got out.” And he said, you know, he just got out. ‘See what you can do.’ And I took off. No problem. And I’m in the air going up and I’m screaming at the top of my voice, ‘Mummy, if you could see me now.’ And I came around and did the thing. Came in and did, as far as I remember a pretty good landing. I don’t know. Anyway, I got it on the ground so it must have been good. But I couldn’t leave it. I opened the taps again and did another circuit. And i thought, ‘God, I’m going to be in trouble for that.’ I came in and landed and I would have loved to have done another one but I turned and taxied up to him thinking I’m going to be in trouble. And he was so pleased. But I got on with him all the time. They moved from Swift Current. They moved the whole — oh I must tell you. While I was there we bought a car. Four of us. Two dollars fifty each. It was a Model T Ford. It was another thing to start a Model T Ford in cold. Thirty below, forty below because this is by the — now we’ve gone through the summer. We’re in the winter. Zero. I’ve got to tell you quickly. You jack up the back wheel. Of course there’s no water. That’s all out. You stick the handle in the front. You don’t switch on because there’s a magneto and you just wind the handle and it’ll start. I wonder if I’ve got this right. I think it is. Anyway, it starts and you leave it warming for a while. Now you want some hot water. Some hot water with you. And after you’ve got it running and it has warmed up a bit you stop it, pour the water in, restart and it should start no problem. No. Sorry. You don’t stop it. You just pour the water in the radiator but if it stops you’ve got to get the water out of the radiator straightaway because it’ll be frozen in no time. Anyway, and the tap will work because the tap will be hot. Anyway, as soon as you’ve got that and you get it running for a while then you have to stop it and put the fan belt on because the fan belt drives the water pump. But before you do that you’ve got to pour water on the water pump to thaw it out. And then you put the fan belt on. Start it. And now you want somebody to push you off the jack. And then you’re away. It’s quite a car to drive actually because the handbrake is part of the gearing mechanism. So if you’ve got the hand break is on now you take it half way off and you’ve got a pedal that you press and when you push that the car goes forward. And then you put the handbrake off and then take your foot off the pedal, off the pedal and you are in top gear. So if you are on the ground and — if you’re stationery I should say and you start it and then you take the handbrake all the way off it promptly stalls because you’re putting it in top gear. Anyway, there we are. That’s enough of that one. We moved to Innisfail. The whole outfit. And we weren’t allowed to drive the car. It was about four hundred miles. We flew the aircraft and we got two ground crew and we got them permission and they drove it the four hundred miles and they had a wonderful holiday apparently because by — anyway then we flew and there was, it was very easy. You know, it’s easy flying in Canada because everything is marked in squares and all the roads go north or south. North south or east west. And you can’t go wrong. All you’ve got to know is the latitude and it is so easy. Anyway, we get there and we had a Chinook wind. Now a Chinook — it’s a very hot. It’s very hot and it was over night and the whole place is white and covered in snow and the snow would have been on the ground unless there had been a previous Chinook wind. It would have been on the ground since about September-time as it fell and it would stay there if there was no Chinook wind right the way through until the spring. But we had, they do get, in Alberta they do get a few Chinook winds and the — when you wake up in the morning most of the snow has gone. All the snow on the ground but the stuff in the hilly or where there were big drifts, yes there would be snow there but basically it had gone. But the thing it did it thawed out the top of the lakes and so all of a sudden you’ve got water on top of lakes and then a couple of nights later it’s all frozen again and you’ve got ideal skating conditions. Anyway, we met a couple of, they were, you know the Canadians were very good and very nice to us and in the [pause] they were asking us to their homes for a meal and stuff and my pal Bob Sergeant and I got invited to a Mrs McGee for a meal. And when we got there she was, she was a widow. Her husband had died and she had two beautiful daughters. Just right. And they were around about, you know, our age or maybe just a little bit less but more or less our age. And of course it wasn’t very long before the rest of our stay in Innisfail. This is, I don’t know if I told you we went from Innisfail from Saskatoon er Swift Current. To Alberta. To Innisfail which is not far from Calgary. Anyway, so we had a great time with the girls and finishing the course, took the exams and then I was posted, along with the rest of the course to North Battleford in Saskatchewan. And then big disappointment — onto Airspeed Oxfords. So that meant I wasn’t going to be one of these lovely boys with the Battle of Britain guys who used to be at High Beach with all the best birds and a little car and stuff like this with their wings. And these were the Battle of Britain guys. And this was the thing that, I used to go to High Beach with my bicycle and this was really part of the reasons why I joined the air force. To see them. Well, so I’m going to be a bomber pilot. And we did the course. There was no problem with the course. One of the strange things, well, one of the things that happened — we were on a — of course there was a big thing about navigation and etcetera. So, navigation. I was up as the navigator and there was another pupil as a pilot and we had a route to take and I got utterly and completely lost. But there’s a bonus also in Canada because they have grain elevators and I came, we came down or he came down and we read the name of the grain elevator and it was Humboldt in Saskatchewan. I had an auntie who lives in Humboldt and actually she’s been to Jersey where I live now. This was years ago. Forty odd ago. And she’s been here with us when our children were very small. And she lived to a hundred and ten. And she died when she was a hundred and ten. Auntie Dorothy. Well, it was, it was her home town but having found that out and I found my way back to where we should have been but I made a complete imagination of the course I should have done. Filled in wind drifts and everything else and it was just a load of [pause] it wasn’t rubbish because it was as my guess for what would have, you know what it would have been like if we’d done the right thing and I put it in and with my fingers crossed it was going to be all right. And I got a passed. I can’t believe it but I did. Anyway, we eventually, we get to the wings exam and there were a hundred and forty of us. A hundred and forty passed it. I don’t know how many, how many failed. But Jimmy Edwards was twenty second and I was fifteenth. So I had worked hard. The first forty got commissions. But I, don’t forget I was out of the east end of London really and I was not considered to be officer material. Well I think really they’re right. Anyway, I didn’t, I didn’t get a commission. I was made a sergeant pilot and then the worst deal of all of course I’d sewn my wings on. That was about two minutes after. As soon as I got in. The first thing. We were all doing it. Anyway, I was posted to [pause] I can’t remember the number. It was a bombing and gunnery school at Mont-Joli on the banks of the St Lawrence in province Quebec. It was on the south bank facing north and it was literally just a few hundred yards away from the airfield. And we were flying Fairey Battles. And some of them had a gun at the back and they had UT pilots. Not pilots. Gunners under training. And then there would be two or three others that used to tow drogues. And the guys used to fire into the drogues. And so we were doing fifteen, twenty minute flights up and down up and down with different gunners all the time. I mean it might have been twenty five minutes — the flights. I can’t remember. But then you’ve got to taxi in, turn around, taxi out and take off and do another lot. And it was horrible. I [pause] I wanted, I joined the air force to get in the war and this wasn’t the war. And I just, I got back in to my very rebellious ways again and didn’t do everything right by a long way and of course the flying. It was so boring. I was really sticking my neck out. The first — what the hell was the first thing. There were three major things. One of them. Oh I know. The first one I was, I mean this was not like the western Canada. This is all hills and its beautiful beautiful countryside with hills, valleys and vales and its picturesque and a beautiful area. And absolutely great for fun with an aeroplane because the first thing that I did and never got known — it never became known but it nearly killed me. I’m flying up a valley as low as I can go and all of a sudden I’ve got a complete wall in front of me. The valleys ended and I don’t know what you call it. There would be a name for it. And I haven’t got enough room to turn around. And as soon as I saw it I got as much, I got a bit more height. As much as I could. I went as close to the port side as I possibly could. Stood the thing right on side and yanked the, you know got the stick right back and the bank at the end — must have missed that by about maybe a hundred feet. Maybe twenty. I don’t know but it was close. And then the bank the other side. But you live and I learn. But that’s if you live. And I learned. And the next thing I’m flying over — this is a period of quite a few months, I’m flying over a lake, and I’m going. Its ice and its winter and it’s and all of a sudden boom boom boom boom boom and it’s not much faster than that. I thought a propeller touching the ice would be brrrrrr but it’s not. It’s bang bang bang bang bang. Anyway, I eased the stick back and she came off. Now if you pull the stick back you hit your tail wheel on the ice and that would be curtains. So I was lucky. I didn’t really know but I eased the stick back, came off and the whole lot is like a big shaking machine because the propeller’s all out of balance and it was absolutely dreadful. So I went up to three thousand. I got up to something like three thousand feet and flew back to base and I thought well now the engine can’t stand this for long. It’s going to pack up and I’ll stick it on the ground on it’s, without the wheels and they won’t see anything about the propeller. And I flew. But you know the Merlin engine is a bit better than that. And I wound around in the end and I’ve got no fuel left. Well I had fuel but it was just a little fuel. I was running out of fuel so I came in and landed and I landed with the brakes on or I put them on straight away with the stick as far forward as I could get it thinking she’d stand up on her nose. But it didn’t happen. Went down and then the tail flopped down. Of course I hadn’t got any brakes. I’d burned them out. Well I taxied in and on Mont-Joli there was a big ditch both sides of the taxi strip. And so you’ve got to go faster and faster and faster to maintain your direction because [pause] and in the end I just cut the engines and she went on and she did a big circle to the left and she came up. I’ve got — she came up right outside the CFI’s, Chief Flying instructor’s office. Right bang outside with a bent prop. And he was out of that office before you could say knife. And he swallowed the story. I said I’d run into a snowdrift and that was right. But the station commander was a different cup of tea. He was older. He had grown up children and he said, ‘Come on. I’ll take you. Show me the marks on the runway,’ and there weren’t any marks of course. So, he said, ‘Now I know what you were doing. Now, tell me. I’m not going to do anything about it.’ And he wanted me to admit that I’d lied and I wouldn’t. So I carried the lie on. Rightly or wrongly I did. I said. I didn’t tell him. I stuck to my story. Well I know it was a big mistake because it had repercussions later. Oh months. A couple of months. Later on there was. Anyway, I was up but for the first time ever I was pulling a drogue. Now, I’d never, I was, you know I’d always had the fighter guys. You know the gunner guys. Anyway, so we’d done the exercising and one thing and another. And then you come over the dropping area. You drop the zone and then the drogue and then you circle around, land. And that’s that. Well, I thought before I do that I’ll do a few steep turns and watch the drogue go past me in the opposite direction. I thought well that would be a bit different. And I did that. Now, when you come out of a steep turn you take, a steep turn is you’ve got the kite almost on its side. Not quite. With the stick well back and the stick which is the elevators — those are the things that are doing the turn. And you do the turn. You do the hundred the hundred eighty degree turn. When you come out you take the bank off and you ease the stick forward a fraction. Obviously because you’ve had it back take the bank off ease the stick forward and I went to pull it back and it didn’t come back. So I pushed it forward and pulled it back and it went forward and never came back. And I couldn’t get it back. I pulled it. Did everything and told the crew to get out. I unhitched myself, opened the top and I’m standing in the cockpit looking back and the bloke hasn’t moved. So I got back in the cockpit and I wound the elevator trim fully tail heavy and I was put under open arrest for this lot and they had an enquiry. And the enquiry said that we didn’t come out of it until we were four hundred feet. Now, that is very very low when you’re coming straight down. Anyway, as I wound the elevator full tail heavy and then all of a sudden the stick came back all the way and I then grabbed the elevator controls. A little crank handle on the left side. On your left side. And I started winding it forward as fast as I could and the next thing I knew I passed out of course in the, with the G and we were two thousand feet going up but if I hadn’t taken the bank, wound the elevator trim forward the kite would have gone straight over in to a loop and straight in the ground. Anyway, we got away with it. Came in and landed and the guy in the back although he dropped, they went and dropped the drogue of course. He dropped the drogue but he crashed his head when the kite pulled out and he got a big bruise but and he went sick. But he was alright. He just, he’d just got a big bruise on his head. He hadn’t broken his head. You know. Cracked his skull or anything like that. Fortunately. The next day I did the test flight. They looked and they couldn’t find anything wrong. So [pause] and they put me under open arrest and this would have been because of the previous time that they were taking a strong view. And I hated where I was. I wanted to be in England. I wanted to get onto operations so, and it didn’t look as if I’d got any chance of this happening. So I cleared off and went skiing. And I left actually, with a chap called Doug Wiltshire, I don’t know whether he’s still alive. I’ve lost contact. But he was my Bridge partner and I knew him very well. Well, I left the, I’d arranged with Doug certain times when I could ring him so that I could find out the news. Find out. And the first day I’m away and I’m ringing up. No. No problem. So, the next day I ring up he says, ‘You’d better come back home. They’ve been up.’ The aircraft I was in was the lead of two more. So, there was three of them formation flying. They were up on formation flying exercise and they did a steep turn and exactly the same thing happened. And the bloke in the, who was leading the formation went straight in the ground head first and killed him. Well when I got back I’d broken the — I mean I was under open arrest and it wasn’t just absent without leave it was a much more serious crime but they, they ignored it and they just had me up for being AWOL for two days. And I know that because I’ve got my records and it’s in there. And they gave me a reprimand. But they posted me. It’s quite normal I think when you’ve got in this particular case it was very difficult for the station commander because they hadn’t listened to me and so therefore it had cost two lives. And they don’t know how I’m going to react. What I’m going to do. And I mean I could have, I knew the guy that killed himself. I can’t remember his name. He was a New Zealander and his birthday was the 18th of November. The day before mine. Mine’s the 19th of November. And that’s — but I knew him very well and I could just as well I mean I wouldn’t have done it but they thought I could have, I may have written to his parents and told his parents. So they posted me straight away back to England. Eureka. I’m on the way to get into the, what I joined up for. I crossed the Atlantic on the Queen Elizabeth. No. Not the QE. The Queen Elizabeth 1. I think she finished her days in Hong Kong burning out. She caught fire and burned to pieces. Anyway, before I boarded the boat I bought three Crown and Anchor boards. And it was another, you know, another thing about me or character. There was some money around and I needed some of it and I was, I was more or less broke. I bought the three Crown and Anchor boards for ten dollars to start playing with which is not enough. So I got a board and I start a little game. You know, with a nice cockney accent which I can, which I had and still have basically and I did this – a little friendly game, you know , sort of business. The Americans, there must have been, there were thousands of them. I don’t know. One, two, three. I don’t know how many the boat would hold. There were not many English but there were loads and loads of Americans and they’d never seen Crown and Anchor. And it was a gambling game. They’d got to have a go at this. Well, I built the most important thing with it is that you’ve got to keep all the squares equally. With equal amounts of money on. If you get one with a great pile of money and it comes up and it comes up and it can come out two or three times I would have been broke. So, you, just a little friendly game you know. Oh no. Just. And so — but the money accumulates and it wasn’t very long before I got fifty, sixty dollars. And then of course the limit went up and up and up and then I got another board game. Another bloke — I said, ‘Do you want to earn a bit of money?’ you know. ‘Yeah.’ ‘I’ve got a board. You can set it up.’ And eventually I had the three boards going. I don’t know what happened on the crossing over on the Atlantic. I have no idea. All I did know was I wearing myself out walking around the ship picking up money. And when I got off the ship, I mean the guys that were running the things would have had as much or maybe more, I don’t know, than me but I got off the ship with just over three thousand pounds. Well now three thousand pounds in those days you could have bought a street of houses. But you know we were now in the throes of getting onto operations so the most important thing was to enjoy it. And I did but it took a little while. About a year or something but it was — but I did everything. Anyway, so we get back. We went to West Kirkby and from there I went to Shawbury and actually Prince Harry did some of his training or he was certainly stationed there for a while. I read it in the paper. I didn’t even know Shawbury was still going. And it, again it was Oxfords. And so you get back, you get in the Oxford and off you go up in the air and have a look around. Not a bit like Canada. Canada, in its way had its own kind of grandeur but it didn’t have — I mean, alright, the eastern area yes was very beautiful but when you’re flying over England it was beautiful but there wasn’t a straight road to be seen. I mean, Canada you could, it was so easy, but here you had to be a bit more, you know, it was different careful. And the same applied to the trains. They were just like little Hornby things. Anyway, everything was fine. They went up for a night flight and just familiarisation. I think it was the first time I’d been up and it was just to familiarise yourself with the local area and I flew down to the Wrekin and, you know, I had a look around. And, you know, there was no light. The whole place is, you know, blackout. Anyway, then I flew back and I ran into cloud and there was not supposed to be any cloud. It was supposed to be a clear night. And anyway, so I came down and I kept down to about I don’t know seven or eight hundred feet and I couldn’t see the ground so I went back to the Wrekin and the Wrekin hadn’t been shrouded in cloud. It was clear. And I did a very careful course and with the wind as far as I knew laid off and of course you, you have, you were given the wind speed and direction before you take off so you’ve got an idea of the wind. I laid a course on a timed run to get back to base. I ran it out and there’s nothing. So I came down again to about eight hundred feet and nothing. So I called up and there were thousands of people, hundreds. I don’t know. But the radio was jammed with people in the same situation. So I called up on [pause] I’ve forgotten it — six hundred, eight, anyway it’s the emergency frequency. I do know it but it’s slipped out of my mind.
CB: 121.5.
KT: Sorry?
CB: 121.5.
KT: No. No. It was different. Yeah. Anyway, I called up on the radio frequency on, you know, the emergency frequency. And they came back immediately, ‘Stand by,’ and I started, I flew squares. I can’t remember how many minutes. There might have been three minutes each leg and it seemed like a half an hour but I expect it was five minutes. Ten minutes at the most. And they came back and I asked for QDM to Shawbury and the QDM was 272. So I knew that I was east of the Welsh hills for sure. So I got on to 272 and I put full flap on. Tightened up the strap and dropped the speed down to just above stalling and I can’t remember what it would be. It might have been sixty. Sixty five. Something. But as slow as you could but I haven’t flown an Oxford for such a long I’m not sure. I think the stalling speed was about sixty five miles an hour and with full flap on you would get away with it at sixty. Anyway, so if you did hit anything there was a chance that you might be alright. And coming down like this and down and down and down and down and all of a sudden I see a light on the ground so I immediately put a bit more throttle on and go down towards the, then I see another one and I’m in a funnel. And a funnel is a lighted path before you get to an aerodrome and it leads you on to a runway. So, immediately I’d opened up, got the taps on so there’s no chance of stalling. I’ve got full flap on anyway. I drop the wheels and start coming in and there’s another bloody kite and he’s about — very close on the starboard side. But that’s no problem but you know he just appeared out of the fog and he flashed the same letter as me which was W. And you know didn’t ‘cause you know you were supposed to flash and get the green light that we weren’t messing about or anything like that. I wasn’t messing about or anything like that. So I flew alongside him and I came in and landed. The hut at the end of the runway fired off red flares to stop us landing because there were two kites coming in to land together. But of course I didn’t take any notice of that. Don’t forget by this time I’d got about fifteen hundred hours in and I’d been in the bombing gunnery school. That’s because I was first out. First up in the morning last, last off and I spent as many hours as I possibly could flying. Anyway, came in. I landed on the grass looking across the cockpit. The bloke did a perfectly good landing and then he obeyed the red flare, opened his taps up. A few seconds later he was dead. Or maybe a minute later. He took off. He — and the next thing before I had cleared the runway he killed himself. He’d gone into the ground. I don’t know whether he stalled or what he did. But then I can’t find my way in because I’m, I’m not on our aerodrome and I turned off left which is what I would do at home and I went in to no man’s land. And eventually I rang up and they sent a vehicle and I followed the vehicle in. And when I get there of all the people, I went into the mess and of all the people I bumped into was my Dougie Wiltshire my old bridge partner who I knew in Canada. Who I did the rigging to. Anyway, we’re there. Then we get posted to Lindholme and Lindholme is where we picked up on to Wellingtons and the Wellingtons was a different thing. But we’ve got to get a crew on. We were in an assembly room and all the different trades, you know, gunners and navigators, wireless ops, flight engineers, bomb aimers and etcetera and you just — I found a navigator. His name was Brinley and he’d got, what? He’d passed matric and stuff and I thought I couldn’t pass a bus let along matric. But he must be better than me but he should be able to navigate and we built the crew together somehow. It just happened. They just came together. We had a little tiny chap with the accent. You know — accent. You know. Clarence Derby. He was the rear gunner. Then there we had a mid-upper gunner who at the end of the training and when we were getting ready to go on operations suddenly decided it wasn’t for him and he went. In those days we’d call it LMF. He disappeared. I can’t, can’t remember his name or anything. We had brilliant navigator. Bill Johnson as a flight engineer. Noel Bosworth was bomb aimer. Who have I missed out? Oh Les Skelton, Australian. Still in touch with him. He’s the last one alive. He, he lives in Australia. Lived in Western Australia. I think that’s the whole crew. And then of course we start flying together. One of the interesting things. I pulled the flap. Now in an Oxford they had a flap lever but the propellers were locked so that they weren’t variable but they had a flap lever to try and get us used to [pause] not flaps. What am I talking about? What do they call it? Constant speed. The propeller going to coarse pitch and fine pitch. That’s what I’m talking about. I’m sorry. And when you were in you normally you take off in fine pitch. And to get it in fine pitch you pulled the lever up and the same thing. Well I got all mixed up and I landed up with the Lanc and pulled the bloody wheels up. And I knew immediately what I’d done and pushed the lever down again and they didn’t collapse. They didn’t. They stayed down. Two of them stayed down and the third one came up. It was the tail wheel. And so I got the crew out. I got underneath the tail wheel, lifted up the wheel came down and nobody knew. Luck. Anyway, fortunately I put the, realised and pulled the handle down quick. Anyway, we got, you become if you can fly, I know the kite was much bigger and there was a lot more to learn and you know from the operational point of view but one of the things I remember that stands in my mind was I’m in my mess having my dinner in the evening and I hear a bunch of kites taking off. And then I’m having my breakfast the next morning and they’re bloody well landing. And I’m thinking God they’ve been up there in the dark all night while I’ve been asleep. And I thought, God that’s terrifying. You know. But the training was extremely good and as you progressed through the course it was absolutely no problem. You know it was just, but, you know, the difference between no knowledge and a little knowledge and a lot of knowledge is a big difference. Anyway the thing worked fine. We spent hours and hours and hours on the bombing range trying to do the impossible. Getting a ten pound bomb somewhere near it. But you know if you do it enough times you get a bit better but you never become perfect. We got a lot better and I have dropped one or two real perfect bombs when I was on 617 Squadron later. But with these, S, I think they were called SABS. Semi-Automatic Bomb Site. They’d brought out another thing that had another word. It was like, I think it was an ABS. An Automatic Bomb Sight. That was later. That’ll come in in a minute. Anyway, so the net result we become pretty proficient and towards the end of the, of the course they sent us out on a diversionary thing. So, there was a bombing raid and they sent a whole bunch of us out to try and divert the enemy defence set up and then of course we all came back and landed and that was that. And then we were posted [pause] I cannot remember where. And in my book I don’t think I’ve got it. But it was on to a Halifax. It might be in the book but it’s slipped out of my mind at the moment. But we were posted on to Halifaxes and this four engines and this lasted no more than a week to two weeks at the most. And then we went to, in Lincolnshire, this and I’ve stayed there. The officer’s mess is now a hotel. And the name I know and it’s in the book. And I can give it to, I’ll have a look and I can find, look it up. I will think about because as it happens I managed to get the room I had while I was there.
CB: That’s Woodhall Spa.
KT: No. Woodhall Spa. I did that as well. In Woodhall Spa I got my old room when I went to a 617 reunion. But no, this was, anyway at the time the squadrons had been there or they eventually were there but it was a Conversion Unit onto a Lancaster. And then I’m posted on to Elsham Wolds. 576 Squadron Elsham Wolds and at the same time I’ve gone from sergeant, because I was a sergeant pilot. You became a flight sergeant automatically after six months. But eighteen months later I was still a sergeant because I’d had one or two — well because of the problems I had at Mont-Joli. Anyway, I went from sergeant, flight sergeant to pilot officer in five minutes. You know, when I say five minutes — in a matter of about three or four months. And I was given a bit of leave. I’m not sure if the whole crew was given some leave but I went down to London to All Kits I think it was called. Was it Cambridge Circus? All Kits. Got myself the gear and its surprising. The money was so cheap in those days. I think the allowance and I’m not sure, was forty pounds. And out of that you got a great coat, a uniform, and a couple of shirts I suppose. I can’t remember. Oh, the a hat. Your forage cap would be ok. Anyway, there we were. So I’m now Pilot Officer Trent with my kit bag and I’m off to Woodhall Spa. Not Woodhall Spa.
CB: Elsham Wolds.
KT: Elsham Wolds. Incidentally I’ve hunted at Elsham Wolds. You know. With horses of course. Anyway, that’s a by the way. So I get as close as I can on the bus. Barnetby le Wold. And they dropped me off and I’ve got about three miles walk but it shows how green I was. All I should have done was to have gone into a hotel, got a pint of beer and rung up and said I’m at such and such a hotel and they’d have picked me up. But I walked with my kit bag on my shoulder and I’m walking along a pace at a time. And I get the frights. As I’m walking along and I’m thinking I wonder if I’m going to walk back. I just wonder. And I get on and on and walk on and on and I walk and walk. And eventually I get there and kind of shelve it but you know it’s a thought that’s gone in your mind. I go into the mess. No. Not the mess. Sorry. I went and reported in and a batman showed me my room. I got myself sorted out and then I went into the mess and there was a little bugger, for a better word, with a pint of beer. He’d got wings and he’d got a DFM. And he was my sort of bloke. And the first thing he said, you know, he spoke to me straight away — his name was John Stevens. And John Stevens he’s died years ago. One of his sons, it’s got me a little bit funny because I’m so involved with family. One of his sons is my godson. His daughter lives in Jersey. She lived with us and was married from our house years ago now. Forty years ago actually yesterday. Forty years ago Sunday. But there we are that’s one of those things. They hit you on the soft spots. Anyway, so old John he’d done a tour of operations. And he starts talking to me about, you know, it’s all going on but not at that moment but the information gradually came over. One of the things was where he was such a good friend was he had a car and I didn’t have. So I had to make sure he was a good friend but he was and he said, you know, talking about operating. He said, ‘Be aggressive.’ Now then. This is not everybody’s thought at all but, ‘Be aggressive. If you’ve got any idea you can see one get the boys to fire at it. Be absolutely aggressive. Don’t, whatever you do, go through a target before somebody else is coned. Let, let you know if you’re early, whatever you do do anything but don’t be early what ever,’ And this is something and this is something you’ve trained your own navigators. But there was several things like this you know. That was for getting coned. Avoiding predicted flak. He said that his system that you don’t, you can’t do anything about first bunch. The first lot of flak. That comes and it’s too close for comfort. But you know it’s predicted automatic because there’s nothing going and all of a sudden bang bang bang bang bang all around you. So if you alter your direction, drop your height a bit, say you altered to the right or to starboard and drop down a hundred feet. And then you tell the crew look up there and in twenty seconds you’ll see a load of shells go off and you’ll see and it is. And I got caught, very badly caught in that predicted flak much later on, and when I was on 625 Squadron and taking a new crew. And the thing is keep your head. Keep counting and keep altering your direction and your height up and down. And it’s, there is a lot of luck because there’s more than one gun. There’s a gun battery but if you get another battery starts up then the timing suddenly alters and it all goes a bit wrong. But nevertheless it was all good advice. And we became firm friends and then the squadron was moved to Elsham Wolds. And I got on very well with the Elsham Wold, all the guys at Elsham and including the station commander. Group Captain Duncan did about eight flights with me as flight engineer. And you know so I was I was a bit of a party boy. Not a party boy. What do you call it? I was, it was a nice happy relationship with everyone. And I had, you know, operations. I remember the first operation. It was, this was one you remember the details and it was in Holland. I think the place is called [unclear]. I’ve actually got it. Can you? I think it’s in here somewhere. No it’s not. No. That’s the other thing. Anyway, I remember coming home. It was absolutely a piece of cake. There was no problem. It was daylight. With tonnes of fighters kicking around because it wasn’t, and the only problem coming back between Brussels [pause] I’ve looked all this up. And anyway in the Brussels area we got into a load of flak but otherwise it was nothing. It was an absolutely piece of cake. Well then the operations started and strangely I’ve got I can go through all my operations. Do you want me to do that?
CB: Later.
KT: Well it would take a hell of a long time.
CB: Later. Later.
KT: Yeah. Ok. To just tell you some of the important operations or the ones that stand out in my mind. We were going to Cologne. No. Further in. Where the hell was it? It was, and this is documented everywhere. In the tele, on the computer and everywhere. This particular raid. And it wasn’t Munich. I don’t. No. It wasn’t Munich. It was quite a, a fairly deep penetration and we took off and the, there was a massive cumulonimbus set up and we had to climb up to get over the top of it. And my rear gunner Clarrie had a problem. And he asked if he asked if he could get out of his turret. And he forgot to lock the turret. And the turret turned and trapped his legs. And brother. It says in the official report he requested assistance. In fact he was screaming. God. It’s a bit nerving when somebody’s screaming like made down the — but he, I sent the bomb aimer back, who was his friend, to help him. And when he got there the screaming had stopped. I’d said to him, you know, ‘If you don’t stop screaming we’re not going to do anything about it.’ And I think it would have crushed his legs. I don’t know. But by the time Noel got back there his oxygen had become disconnected and he’d passed out. So, he wasn’t, he wasn’t making any noise but I stopped the starboard outer engine. With the starboard engine drives the rear turret so that to stop the pressure and then he goes back there. He gets Clarrie sorted out and he gets him on the bench. There’s a rest bed just forward of the main spar on the left hand side of the port side of the kite. Anyway, he gets him on there and then I’m faced with do I — which way do I go? Do I go back home? I’m losing height and I’m going into the top of this cumulonimbus lot. And I think just start the engine. When I started the engine it looked as if it was on fire. And I left it until it was on fire and then I stopped it and it went out. So, I started it again. Left it for ten minutes and started it again and it still caught fire. So I stopped it and operated the graviner and the fire went out but I can’t use the engine any more. So I have got no rear turret but I went on to the target. Dropped the bombs. And I couldn’t get over the top of the cu nim coming back because it was a massive big front. So I went underneath and I came down low and I went underneath. And because I was only a few feet above the sea. You know, maybe a hundred feet. Something like that when after we crossed the coast and as luck would have it we never had fighter interest although we were on our own. And so that was lucky. Anyway, coming across and what do we see? A life raft with seven blokes in it. A kite has come down and we managed, we stayed there until we were just about running out of petrol but we managed to get so many things to go towards them to pick them up. There was a [pause] what do you call it, a coaster. I think he was hauling coal backwards and forward. I think it was a collier. I’m not sure but it was certainly a vessel. There was, a destroyer was involved and they motored, you know, small boats they put over the side. But the net result was I flew back and sent their exact position. And we gave their position but we could take you could plot back and give them the exact position. Anyway, they saved the crew. They were all, they picked them up. And then of course I came back and I was well late. Came in and landed and that got the first DFC. You know we did quite a few. The — oh yeah I must tell you this. Whilst in 617 Squadron and I don’t know how many operations I did there. I can’t remember. But because it was anyway I flew three different Lancasters. Now, when I say I me and my crew flew three different Lancasters that all did over a hundred operations and it is the, it’s only a statistic but we were the only bomber crew throughout the whole of the war that did that. You now, this is a heavy bomber crew. And that is, just as I say, a statistic. Anyway, we got moved down to Kelstern. Kelstern is the coldest bloody place in Lincolnshire and it’s the furthest place from a pub and thank God for Steve because we were able to do our stuff. You know. Another interesting thing the first possible night in the week when we were stood down we, Steve and I used to go front row of the stalls in the theatre and eye up the chorus. And you could, you could, there was a bar and the bar was on the right hand side of the stage. So, you went up a few steps onto — and there was this blooming bar and we’d get the direct birds into there and so we got a girlfriend for the week, you know and actually some of them, one or two of them, one of them from my point of view who I got to know quite well. And she said you get “The Stage” and you can find out where I am every week. Which was quite nice. When it was close. Not too far away. But unfortunately I hadn’t got the services of Steve then because [laughs] But anyway, so it went on. But now, what happened then? Then I had finished my tour and none of my crew wanted to stay on. Oh I forgot to tell you. Most important. When we went on to [pause] converted on to Halifaxes I needed a mid-upper gunner and he was a flying officer. Flying Officer Riccomini. And Riccomini spent the rest of his working life in the air force and retired as a squadron leader and I have been up to see him several years but I’ve not seen him, I haven’t been in touch lately unfortunately. I haven’t. He must have moved. But he had a nice house and he lived and he had quite a nice life. So, now, Riccomini was on his second tour so he only had to do twenty operations and he disappeared. Well, when he disappeared I picked up a little bloke. He was Flight Sergeant Arthur and he had done a tour and he was a, he wanted to keep going. So I picked him up as a rear gunner and he became known as Gremlin. And a gremlin was always in the rear turret. And he was, he was an aggressive little sod. He was just the sort of bloke I wanted in the rear turret. Anyway, the tour is finished so I’ve got Gremlin and nobody else. Well, on one occasion I took all the leaders. You know the bombing leader, nav leader, engineer leader and the gunnery leader and, and there was absolute hullabaloo because if we’d been shot down. And so that never happened again. But I wound up taking new crews. Now, a second dickey normally comprises an experienced crew and just the pilot goes with the experienced crew. And he does, this was how my second dickey was. But this time we took the inexperienced crew and the pilot, the inexperienced pilot came with me and would act, along with the engineer, as a kind of second engineer between them. And Gremlin in the tail. But [pause] and we do you know thirty one, thirty two, thirty three thirty four and they’re going up doing these sort of things. And then I got a dead lot. A real, and I, this was to Munich and he lost him. The navigator had lost the plot completely and we were well in over Germany. And we had, I mean I didn’t know at that. I mean one of the things you can get some, you could start to make a bit of a pattern in your mind of searchlight patterns. Where you can see towns. You couldn’t. You know. But Munich is a long way in. Anyway, I dumped the bombs, turned around and I flew. I cannot think of the course but an estimated course of my own. My own [unclear] was going to get me over the North Sea and then I’d go over England and we’d spot — we’d get a pinpoint off the ground. And anyway of course, so what happens we got into really prolonged predictive flak and it went on because I must have been on an unfortunate sort of a heading because I was going from one load of guns onto another lot and it happened. I don’t know how long we were coned, we were predicted but it went on and on and on. To keep counting on following Steve’s advice proved to be quite something but we got through the end of it and at the end of it you’d be surprised how bloody hot you are. I was sweating like a pig. And I don’t know why but maybe it was fright. It’s a thing. I don’t know. But anyway we got back to England. When we crossed the coast the bloke had got the Gee box on and he’d got the, and he told me the course to steer so I never had to go and look for the airfield. He told me the course. We came in and landed and they were sent back for training. And a very strange thing. It’s about fifteen twenty years ago. We knew a hotelier here and he said we’ve got a bloke here that used to be a pilot in the, a navigator, a Lancaster pilot in the war. ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I’ll come and have a chat with him then.’ So I went around there and it was him. Of all the people. He said, ‘Ken Trent. He said `You chucked me out. You sent us back.’ So, I said, ‘Yeah and you’re still alive.’ You know. But anyway, so where have we got to? Now this went on and I’d applied to transfer to 617. Eventually. It wasn’t too long. Oh something before this. We came back and it was thick fog. This is actually — the funny in my voice is nothing to do with the the fog. We were, we were diverted back. I think it was Ludford Magna. And when you got there you could see it because FIDO is hundreds of thousands of gallons of petrol being set alight through little pipes. There was some pipes with little holes in and it’s going out and it takes about a quarter of an hour I think to get the lift the fog sufficiently enough to bring the kites in. But you could see the brightness from quite a long way away. Anyway, so I went to Ludford Magna. The first thing they say is how much fuel have you got? Well if you’ve got three hundred gallons you would say two hundred because you, because you knew what was going to happen. They were going to get you to [pause] and all you wanted to do was get on to the ground. Anyway, so they’d send you on a cross country and then when you came back they would, at the time they would put you in the stack. And you would be on the top of the stack. And I can’t remember whether it was a hundred feet you came down but they would bring, give permission for somebody to land and they would go through the stack an bring everybody down to the next height lower. I don’t know whether it was a hundred feet, two hundred feet. I don’t think it could possibly five hundred feet. That would be too much. Anyway, they bring you all down until it was your turn to land and when I landed and went in there was a message. My mum was seriously ill in hospital and it’s is going to upset me a bit. Anyway, I took off as I was with my helmet in a bag and I just went. You know, flying gear, the whole bloody lot. And they had a railway warrant. I went down. I went to see the hospital and she seemed as bright and cheery as if there was nothing wrong with her. But she’d had, in those days they weren’t anywhere near as advanced with cancer and they’d had a look inside and discovered — and just sewed her up again. There was another lady there she’d palled up with there and she said, ‘She’s dying. She might last three months. The doctors say might last three months.’ And so if, you know, a little later I went back to camp and of course any opportunity I was home. And I got some leave to go home and what’s she doing? She’s cleaning the place. The shop, the house, from top to bottom while she still had the strength. Before she died. I was there when she died. Twenty one minutes past ten on the 29th of April 1944 and — 1945 sorry. The end of the war. Anyway, so of course I’m I get back to camp eventually and the transfer or the posting comes to 617. And when I got to 617 Squadron all of a sudden I thought that I might survive the war. This was January 1945 and we’d lived a pretty heavy life from the drinking and etcetera and, you know, because I suppose we were just having as good a time as we could possibly have whilst we were here. But it was accepted in a way and you didn’t, you weren’t lying in bed thinking, ‘Oh. Am I going to die?’ Nothing like that. Maybe you’d had so much to drink you’d been to sleep anyway. But I, the, it was the atmosphere at 617 was it was a special place and they were all special people. But I’m not that special. I felt that I wasn’t that special. And although it was a fantastic squadron and they did some fantastic things. Things that, you’ve got to admire everything about them but I went out for a walk, came out of the Petwood, turned right and a little way on the right hand side is a farm. And there was a long straight line right up to the little cottage where the farmer lived. And I went down there looking for eggs and he was milking. And he was, he’d got — his kids and his wife were milking. And he was carrying, with a yolk, I don’t know how many but maybe five gallon, six gallon buckets. I don’t know. Four gallon. They were big buckets of water from a pond and he was carrying them in to where the cows were to water the cows. So I said, ‘Oh I’d like to have a go at that.’ And I became very friendly with the family and all the drinking went out of the window. I wasn’t drinking. And he couldn’t read or write but he was a lovely, lovely man and his wife. And while they were there they were up to all the things the farmers were doing. I haven’t, you know this to me was more interesting than the than the operations. They killed a pig. Illegally of course and they knew exactly what to do. And I could go through the whole performance but its — and the whole thing goes. When I go home, I’ve got a car by now, when I go home I’ve got a sack of spuds you know. A chicken. A dozen eggs. And a lump, a lump of bacon because it wasn’t for pork. It was for bacon in the boot. Which today of course if you were stopped by the police you would wonder what the heck but it never occurred to me that that might happen. Anyway, they’d let you off because you’ve got wings and the DFC on you. Anyway, so 617 Squadron. I didn’t spend as much time in the mess and I never made a close buddy because I was involved more with the farm and I also wasn’t drinking much. I’d have an odd beer but I certainly I wasn’t getting pissed or anything like that at all. Well. Some of the operations. The first one I did was to Bielefeld Viaduct. I can remember that as a first. I can remember the last which was to Berchtesgaden. I’ll talk, there’s a bit more about Berchtesgaden in a minute. I think there’s one or two. I’m not sure which it is. One was a viaduct and the other was a bridge and it was the bridge and I can’t remember which one it is. Arnsburg comes in my mind. But I do know it and it’s in my book. But because we know. And I had a Tallboy which was a twelve thousand pounder and — Left. Left. Right. But I must tell you. I was talking about a bomb sight a lot earlier on. Now the bomb site now was an automatic bomb site. Not semi automatic. And the, the thing that happens is this. About ten minutes, a quarter of an hour before we get to the target you take a three drift wind and it’s quite a simple thing to do. You can either do it — the gunners can do it for you or you’ve got to get the land going down straight and it gives you the direction of the wind. And you can calculate the direction and strength of wind. Or you can do it with a hand bearing compass. Anyway, the navigator does that and that’s passed to the bomb aimer who enters it into the bomb sight. Now the bomb sight is a big box of tricks to the left of the actual thing of the sight. So he feeds that in. The air speed is automatically fed in. And the height is automatically fed in. Then there are corrections for air speed and corrections for height which the navigator works out and passes and they go in. And all this time you’re flying straight and level and you have, apart from you’ve taken your sixty degrees either side to get your wind and then you’ve got near enough a ten minute straight and level flight. You’ve got the, it’s all daylight because you’re doing, you’re dropping a bomb on a particular object. And the bombsite consists of a piece of glass about an inch and a half wide and I would think say five, six inches long. Now I’m only talking from memory but this is to give you the idea. Now, as you came, as you were approaching the target and the target would start to come on to the glass and then there’s a big cross with — it’s shorter on the [pause] and it’s longer on the direction into the cross. And the bomb aimer gets it on to the end of the leg of the cross. ‘Left. Left. Right. Steady, steady. Ok. Ok.’ And then he says, ‘Bomb site on.’ And when the, that means he’s switched on the bomb site and it should, the perfect thing is that the cross is there on the target and it stays there and as you travel forward the glass gradually depresses to keep, and it should stay there. And the bomb site releases the bomb. Not the bomb aimer. And this was a really accurate but for all that the idea of the bomb was to get as close to the target as you could and you made sure. The bombs were so big. I mean there was the Grand Slam or special store that was ten tonnes. Which was a massive, it was quite a bit bigger but for all that the twelve thousand pounder would make a big enough hole for most things nearby to fall into the hole. Or [unclear] into the hole. Well this particular one and I never saw this. Only from the pictures afterwards. ‘Left. Left. Right. Steady. Bomb sight on. Bomb gone.’ And then the bomb aimer, ‘We’ve hit the bloody thing.’ And he’d hit right in the centre sideways of the bridge and just maybe a twenty foot overshoot. I mean incredible fortunate bomb. And there were three pictures and these were posted up in the very special little officer’s mess in Petwood Hotel. And the first one was a hole in. The second one was water splashing up and the third one was the whole bloody lot up in the air. That was, you know, that was something. On another occasion and now this has been recorded officially as a twelve thousand pounder bomb but it wasn’t. I carried. I wasn’t the first one by any means but I kept the first ten tonner, the first Grand Slam. The first specialist bomb that I carried. I can’t remember where we were going. But on the way out when we started to climb our, my oxygen was out of step. Wasn’t working and the squadron commander at the time was Jonny Farquhar. I shouldn’t say this but he wasn’t the most popular. Leave it at that. And he [pause] when I shouldn’t have told him but he said, he was getting on at me because I wasn’t getting up to height and I told him that we were having problems with the oxygen. And he said, ‘Go back.’ And we discussed it amongst the crew. Shall we pretend we can’t hear him or shall we go on? But we went back. So I’ve got, I’ve got, although as I just said it says in the, in the records that it was a Tallboy but it wasn’t. It was the very first one that I took up. And I blooming well knew that. Anyway, we’d then got to land and I landed ok but I came in and I thought you know I’d better just give it a little bit more speed and I was aiming to touch down right at the very beginning of the runway. And I might have touched down a third of the way down. The bloody kite floated down and seemed to float forever. Anyway, I was frightened to overshoot in case it wouldn’t overshoot with a full flap wheels and the bomb. So it stuck on the ground and we were going fast because, I mean there’s a hell of a lot of weight. And if you put the brakes on like that then you’ll burn them out in no time so you snatch the brakes and it keeps snatching the brakes until you get right to the end and that gave it a little inclination to turn to port. To turn left and of course the bloody thing was going to whizz around and it was going to wipe the undercarriage as far as I can and everything off. And I put absolutely full bore, full power on the port outer right through the gate as I turned off and as it came around. I mean how the undercarriage stood it I don’t know. But all of a sudden I shut it. I’m doing four miles an hour on the taxi trip. And that was, that to me I reckon was one of the danger spots. Now, the war. We did the Berchtesgaden. Get all the way there. The bombing leader was my bomb aimer and we got hung up. And so we carried the Tallboy all the way back home. But we used to land with Tallboys all the time. This is why I can tell you that it was a thirty five. You know, it was a Grand Slam. And I can tell you because I mean Tallboy we were bringing them back. If you had a Tallboy and somebody hit the target you would bring them back home because they were so scarce and there were so few of them. And I mean landing with a Tallboy was absolutely no problem at all because nowhere near the weight. Anyway, the war’s over. We left the Petwood. We went to Waddington. Lovely mushrooms all over the airfield. We used to pick them in the morning and take them in. Then we are sent to Italy to pick up some army types. And the first time we went was to Parmigliano. There was a great, a great party when we got there and we discovered that you could buy — oh what was it? Not cherry brandy. A fancy, a fancy liqueur that we had’t seen. Never. None of us had ever tasted. It wasn’t Cherry Heering. It was something like. What now you buy. It’s a yellow creamy lot. Anyway, I can’t remember what it’s called at the moment. Tia Maria. And it came out. I can’t remember. But say it was a pound. It was cheap. A pound a bottle or something like that. So of course we all bought a load of this stuff. Put it in the kite to sell to the pubs when we get home in Lincoln. Anyway, so we eventually next morning we’re not really feeling very well. We’re gathering all the guys up and they — I think, I can’t remember how many. The place is stuffed with brown types and soldiers and we take off and come home no problem. But we’re a little bit worried about the contraband and so we told the authorities. We called up and told them we had some problem with the engine and so they — I can’t remember where it was but I can’t remember the name. It was another place where they’d got an elongated runway. Very wide and there were two of them. Was Ludford Magna one? And was one Woodford or somewhere?
CB: Woodbridge.
KT: Where?
CB: Woodbridge.
KT: Woodbridge. Yeah.
CB: Suffolk.
KT: Yeah. That’s right. Woodbridge. Well we landed at Woodbridge. And I couldn’t remember where it was. And so we got a corporal comes out. ‘No. No. Nothing to declare.’ So that was that. So the kite’s at Woodbridge. Somebody took a look at the engine. That was alright. We stayed the night so the next day we flew back to base and we didn’t have to go through customs. So we got the stuff home. I’m near the end but I just, there are just one or two more things to tell you. One of them was we did another trip. This time we went to Bari which is the other side. And when we took off for the guys coming back home we were given a weather forecast that there was cloud. And you break through the cloud about four to five thousand feet and the cloud base was about a thousand feet or something. So we took off and climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed and I got up to ten thousand feet and we weren’t out of the cloud. And I thought well I can’t go any higher because I’ve got all these guys in the back. So, and then we started to get violent turbulence. So I said to the nav, we want to get, ‘Let me know when we’ve crossed.’ When I say violent turbulence you can’t believe it. You suddenly find your climbing at about five thousand feet, ten thousand feet a minute. Something. I can’t remember. So you stick the engine, you stick the kite down and you start losing height like mad. And then all of a sudden you get a bloody great bang and you’re descending at the same sort of speed and I said to the nav, ‘Let me know as soon as we’re clear of Italy and I aint going to get underneath it.’ And I may or not have told him we were going underneath but I had the experience of this. We were clear and I came down and down and all of a sudden I came out of the bottom and about a hundred, two hundred yards from the starboard side was a bloody great whirl of water being sucked up out of the sea into it. But we were underneath. You could see several of these all around and it was so easy from there on to fly. And we would fly back to the Spanish coast as we did the first time and then due north to England. Well, when we got back a bloke — they’d lost I think one kite. They lost a bloke. A mid-upper turret had come out of a kite along with the guy sitting in it. And another kite landed with a broken back. And they got it back and landed it. And that was the end of those. Now, the one thing I must tell you. Before I took off for this particular trip I took off and was, we was on course and the nav comes up. He says, ‘The Gee box isn’t working.’ So I said, ‘Well, it doesn’t matter does it?’ You know. He said, ‘There’s a Kings Regulations just come out. You’ve got to replace it.’ You know, ‘The regulations says you’re not to fly with it.’ If you get that you’ve got to replace it. It’s an after the war job. So I came in and as I was approaching I could feel the kite did that. Do you notice? Nothing. You know. Landed. Taxied in. No problem. Shut down. They’d changed it so taxied out. Took off. As I’m going down the runway and I’ve got to something like eighty miles an hour. Eighty five. So, and you need at least ninety five to take off. All of a sudden the runway went flying that way and I’m flying across it. You know. Careering across the grass. I put on full rudder. Bloody difficult because you’ve got this engine feathered, got the things. Put in boards straight through the gate. Took a little out of the port outer to ease it on the rudder and I’ve got my hand here on the rim, trying to, on the rudder trim. Trying to turn the trim. And the wing, we left the airfield and we’re over a field and the starboard wing touched the ground. So the net result the next thing and I’m not strapped in. The war’s over and all that and I haven’t strapped myself in and it touched the ground. I knocked the box off which disconnects, you know turns off all eight ignition switches. And there’s a handle. Have you been in a Lanc? Well you know where the handle is. You pull yourself up to get into your seat when you fly. As the pilot. Well that handle. I put, I put my hand on that and I put my head on my hand because I could see myself being smashed in to the [pause] and then all of a sudden when the bang came the thing did a cartwheel. It took the nose off. And we and there’s mud flying everywhere. My head goes through and the artificial horizon went like that. Never touch it. Next moment I’m in the top of the canopy. And the crew had got all the escape hatches off so they must have been working bloody quick. They were very quick. And I’d always said to my crew you know if ever I say, ‘Emergency. Emergency. Jump. Jump. If you don’t get out I won’t be there. I’ll be the first off. Out of this kite.’ I jumped up out of my seat, put my head in someone’s bum. Some bugger’s got in front of me. And I got up and got, got through. Sat on top. The engines are cracking as they’re cooling down. A hundred yards behind there’s the rear gunner running towards us. And the other guys are running away in case it explodes. And it looked to me to be a long way down to the ground but as you know of course it isn’t that far. But I slid down. The gunner had turned his turret to try and help with the directions. You know, to put some rudder on. And when the tail came down he burst through the doors and was dumped in a ploughed field. Sliding along in the mud. And he’s covered from head to foot in mud. Not a scratch. You know, it was one of those things. Anyway, that was I flew a few times after that but not much more. But I must do the last bit and the last bit I was posted. I thought about staying in the air force. I mean we all wanted to stay in but obviously there wasn’t a future there. You could stay you could sign on for three years and I reckoned at the end of three years it was going to be a bloody sight harder to make a living. But at the moment there were going to be millions of people coming out of the services and there was going to be a bit of money around. I’d better get hold of some of that. That’s how, and I wanted out. So they, as soon as they knew I was posted to a station. I cannot remember where it is but I bet I could find it. And I think I found it and it’s in here. But when — they don’t know what to do with you. And A) I don’t know who he was but somebody, a squadron leader bloke. I was an acting flight lieutenant then and he comes in and he takes me into an office and it’s absolutely full of paper all over the place. And it was the signals office. He said, ‘I wonder. We want you. Your job is to file all this lot. Sort this lot out. Get it in to order and file it.’ Ok. So off he goes and I sit down. It was cold. I looked at it and I thought well this is just bloody stupid. It’s a completely impossible thing to do. I mean, what can you do with it. Where are you going to put it? And it was cold so I put the first bit in the file and burned it. And two weeks later I burned the lot. All Gone. The office was tidy. Clean. Looked lovely. And I’m thinking boy this is going to be some bloody background to this. Something’s going to happen. I wonder. It’s going to be interesting. So the bloke comes in. ‘Oh I see you’ve sorted it. Good show old boy.’ End of story. I mean I just burned the bloody signals. All of them. Anyway, that is me for now.
CB: That’s really good. Thanks very much Ken.
KT: That’s good.
CB: Let’s just recap if we may.
KT: Yeah.
CB: You’ve got one DFC. What was the timing and –
KT: Ok.
CB: Occasion of the second DFC.
KT: Well, now I thought the bar to the DFC came because possibly my record in 617. And that has been my whole thought over all my life until I started to write the book. And then I got in touch with the Air Ministry and records and all this, that and the other and I discovered it was recommended by 65 Squadron. And it was nothing to do with 617. And I’m just going to add something else. I mean we’re all very old men now. And Aces High, who I think some of you may have heard of and know about they had a signing session at [pause] where’s it?
CB: Wendover.
KT: Wendover.
CB: Yeah.
KT: And there was a bloke there who was a pilot in 625 er 617 and he did thirty operations including the Tirpitz. But he didn’t do the Dams raid.
CB: That was Iverson.
KT: Who?
CB: Tony Iverson.
KT: And he doesn’t have a gong.
CB: That’s right.
KT: This is a bloke without a gong. All he got. He hadn’t got a DFC or anything.
CB: No.
KT: And this, that is true is it?
CB: Yeah –
KT: Well now I felt like writing in because it was this was Farquhar. Jonny Farquhar. He was not. All he wanted was stuff for himself or his favourites. But that man. Tony.
CB: Iverson.
KT: Iverson.
CB: He died last year.
KT: Yeah. Now I met him two or three years ago at Aces High.
CB: Yeah.
KT: I didn’t know he’s dead. I’m sorry to hear that. He was on the squadron when I was on the squadron.
CB: He was originally a fighter man.
KT: Yeah. But I thought that that was awful because he had done, in my — as I look at it, more than I did and he I thought that was absolutely terrible because he deserved it. He deserved it more than I did and I got two. Anyway, there we are.
CB: Fantastic. Thank you very much. We’re going to take a break now ‘cause you deserve a cup of tea.
KT: Oh yeah. I’d love a cup of tea. How long have we been doing that?
CB: I can’t see now.
KT: Oh I’ll put the light on. I’ll go and see if I can find some- i’ve got to be careful when I first get up.
CB: Don’t worry.
KT: I’m alright now.
CB: Ok.
KT: I’ll give you some light.
CB: We’re now going to have a break and we’ve done two hours and twelve minutes.
[recording paused]
CB: We’ve stopped the interview because ken has been going for two hours and it’s got to the end of the war although some things we haven’t completed. What we aim to do is reconvene another time and pick up on a number of points that are really important in this.
[recording paused]
CB: This interview is about two hours twenty minutes continuous. The plan is to continue the conversation at a later stage. Probably at Wendover, in the spring, when Ken’s book is due to be launched.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Kenneth Trent
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-12
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATrentKL160112
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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02:13:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Shropshire
England--Cheshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
Canada
Québec
Queensland
Saskatchewan
Québec--Mont-Joli
Alberta--Innisfail
Saskatchewan--Swift Current
Germany
Germany--Berchtesgaden
Germany--Bielefeld
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1945
Description
An account of the resource
Ken grew up in London and joined the Royal Air Force on his eighteenth birthday as a pilot. After exams and interview at RAF Uxbridge, he went to Number 9 Receiving Wing in Torquay and an Initial Training Wing in Stratford-upon-Avon. He then trained in Canada at an Elementary Flying Training School in Swift Current. This was followed by Innisfail and North Battleford where Ken flew Oxfords. After becoming a pilot, he went to a bombing and gunnery school at Mont-Joli and flew Battles before returning to the United Kingdom.
Ken went to RAF Shawbury, flying Oxfords. He was posted to RAF Lindholme on Wellingtons where he crewed up. He was posted for a very short time on Halifaxes, followed by a Conversion Unit onto Lancasters. He then went to RAF Elsham Wolds and 576 Squadron. From flight sergeant, he quickly became pilot officer.
Ken shares some good advice he received from a fellow pilot and describes some of his operations. Ken was awarded two Distinguished Flying Crosses. His first operation was to the Bielefeld viaduct and the last was to Berchtesgaden.
Ken flew three different Lancasters for 617 Squadron and they were the only heavy bomber crew to carry out over 100 operations. During his time at RAF Woodhall Spa, he fostered a good relationship with a local farmer.
When the war ended, he went to RAF Waddington and flew back army personnel from Italy.
Contributor
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Sally Coulter
576 Squadron
617 Squadron
625 Squadron
Absent Without Leave
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
Battle
bombing
crash
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
faith
FIDO
Grand Slam
Halifax
Lancaster
military discipline
Operation Dodge (1945)
Oxford
pilot
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lindholme
RAF Woodbridge
RAF Woodhall Spa
recruitment
sanitation
take-off crash
Tallboy
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/911/11153/PKilleenKAL1701.1.jpg
dadeecb233985a9da7dc72022e53320e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/911/11153/AKilleenK170703.2.mp3
1d6e1ea323308ee300e6737cd82916eb
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Killeen, Kenneth
Kenneth Alfred Leonard Killeen
K A L Killeen
Description
An account of the resource
20 items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Kenneth Killeen (b. 1922, 184115, Royal Air Force), his log books, photographs and documents. He flew operations as a navigator with 115 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Kenneth Killeen and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Killeen, KAL
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 3rd of July 2017 and I’m in Newport, Isle of Wight with Ken Killeen, navigator to talk about his times in the RAF and afterwards. So, what are your earliest recollections of life, Ken?
KK: Well, it’s rather silly really but my earliest recollection is when I was just two years of age and I was given a little wooden horse which I could push along, for Christmas. And being rather enterprising even at that age I found that if I could sit on it, hold on to the head and jerk myself backwards and forwards I could move round the room. But unfortunately, I pushed its head off and that is the sole reason I give for my earliest recollection [laughs] And I can remember quite a number of instances in my early days. I could stand on a stool and I could play shove ha’penny on the bar with some of the guests. I didn’t start school until I was six even though the school was only thirty yards away. Simply because it was full of post-war children and I was a little bit further down the line. And I always remember that my first teacher there was Miss Stevenson. When I was eight my father decided that the Inn, the Castle and Banner was not a good enough trade and he decided that we should move to London. And we settled at South Tottenham in Seven Sisters Road. It was not a particularly salubrious neighbourhood. In those days it was what one might term a Jewish ghetto. There were a tremendous number of Jewish people lived there. We were located quite close to a very well-known spot shall we say in Tottenham called Wards Corner. Never forget it. Trams used to pass up and down Seven Sisters Road. They were subsequently succeeded by trolley buses. I went to the local school there. Seven Sister’s Boys School. And being a, shall we say rural child from the Isle of Wight in to a city was not easy. I still wore boots. I still wore leather gaiters in inclement weather. I don’t know. Other children didn’t wear things. I had a different raincoat whereas all the other children wore gabardine raincoats. I wore a flat cap whereas all the other children wore a school cap. So there were differences which I found a little bit intimidating shall we say. I was a very shy child and I I had a brother who was nearly three years younger than me but I don’t think he found it quite so difficult. I took the eleven plus examination at the due time and I wanted to go to the local Tottenham County School but unfortunately there weren’t sufficient places for me so I was offered a place as an out county student. And I obtained a place at Dame Alice Owens Boy’s School at Islington just a few yards away from the Angel. Just off the Pentonville Road actually [laughs] The headmaster was Doctor Asman. A reverend gentleman who was very very nice indeed. I was there for four years and fortunately was always in the, one of the upper classes for my ag and took the matriculation, school certification matriculation in 1938. Oh, actually, yes I went to the Owens in 1934. That’s it. 1934. September ’34. I quite enjoyed the secondary school and I used to travel seven miles every day to Owens by tram. Later trolley buses. One day a week we always spent the school playing field which was out near Barnet. Again, another journey by tram. I was fortunate enough to gain School Certificate with matriculation but, and I left the school in the July ’38 because my father decided that he didn’t fancy Tottenham anymore and I don’t think, and of course at the time war was certainly looming and my father didn’t want to be in what would have been a very targetable area for the German Air Force. As it was. So we came back to the Isle of Wight and I got a job as a junior clerk with a big firm of timber merchants in Newport and I worked a forty four hour week and my pay was seven shillings a week. Equivalent to thirty five pence in current money. It went up to nine shillings a week after six months. But in the March 1939 I applied for a job as a junior clerk at the, with the local authority, the County Council and was appointed having been interviewed by the whole of the staff committee. Oh yes. And I then doubled my wages. Fifty two pounds per annum with an annual increment of thirteen pounds a year. And I started work on the 1st Monday in April 1939 and on this date, the 3rd of July 2017 the Isle of Wight County Council is still paying me. The war started on the 3rd of September 1939 but so far as the staff at county hall was concerned the war started in the August because a lot of us and particularly the junior staff were recruited into ARP. Air Raid Precautions. Because at County Hall we had the County ARP Centre and the junior boys were the ones who did the night shifts. We went on duty at 10 o’clock at night until eight the next morning. We were given a breakfast and then we went back to our desks at 9 o’clock. The following year, 1940 members of the staff started getting called up so within a year I moved up to the next stage and somebody else came in as a junior clerk. I had to register for war service in 1941 and chose to join the Air Force, and volunteered to fly. Obviously, I wanted to be a pilot but after interview and a medical assessment at Oxford in October ’41 they offered to take me on as a navigator and I was delighted to accept. The reason I wanted to join the Air Force was several of my colleagues at County Hall had in fact joined the Air Force and of course we were very much aware of what the RAF had done. I wanted a change of service because my family was, had a military background dating back to 1804 and I had four generations in the Hampshire Regiment so I thought I would have a change. I was put on to deferred service for ostensibly four months but was called up in 1942 and reported in the beginning of April ‘42 to ACRC Aircrew Receiving Centre at Lords Cricket Ground in London. And within a matter of hours or days of joining we learned the first thing. Never volunteer for anything. And the second thing we learned if it moves salute it, if it doesn’t move paint it white [laughs] Which is what everybody says. Interesting really, at Regent’s Park we were there for about three weeks I believe was the process of being issued with kit and going through all the medical processes having blood taken, having vaccinations, inoculations, you name it. We were housed in Mansions as they called the blocks of flats along Regent’s Park Road. And within a matter of days of being called up we were put on guard duty. So we already assumed responsibilities even in our early days there. And eventually we were allocated to initial Training Wings, ITWs and I was sent to Torquay in Devon. And the ITW I was at was located at the Toorak Hotel. It’s still there. Changed a bit. We had a sergeant physical training officer there who was an extremely interesting man and we all liked him exceedingly because he was a very, very good, the discipline, he was quite disciplined, a bit of a disciplinarian but he had a nice sense of humour and it was Ted Ditchburn the Tottenham and England goal keeper. The corporal PTI we had was another footballer who played for Barnet and I just can’t remember his name now. The officers we had were schoolmasters. The one who was in charge of our group, I cannot remember his name but I remember him very, very well. He was a very, very short man and he wore his forage cap absolutely set square on his head. And that is where we started to learn. Discipline of course. We learned how to march, how to drill, how to use firearms. Went to firing ranges. And we learned navigation. We learned how to take weaponry apart and put it back together. We learned to, the Morse Code. And we learned a lot very very quickly and generally speaking we quite enjoyed it. The only thing perhaps we didn’t enjoy very much was the dinghy drill which we had to undertake on one occasion which took place in Torquay Harbour. Where we had to don a wet uniform which somebody had used and jump off the harbour wall fifteen feet into the water, swim to a dinghy, climb into it, fall out of it, swim to another dinghy, climb into it, fall out of it and swim back to the steps. We didn’t do any parachute jumping [laughs] and we didn’t do any flying. But we were there, I think until the August ’42. Three months when we took our appropriate examinations and those that passed were promoted to LAC. Interestingly enough while we were at Torquay the Duke of Kent, a member of the royal family was killed in an air crash. And a little word got around that as a remark, as a mark of respect we were required to blacken the white flash that we had in our forage caps. The white flash of course denoted that we were trainee air crew. And strange, and believe it or not one or two did fall for it. After Torquay we went up to Blackpool as a holding operation because we had been chosen to go to South Africa for air training. Some crew of course went to Canada and later the United States but we, we were destined for South Africa. And while we were waiting for a boat we were at Blackpool for about four to six weeks. Blackpool in September, in the autumn, September, October can be a little blustery. And it was always frustrating that we polished our buttons every morning religiously and when we by the time we got on parade on the front at Blackpool salt sea air had a devastating effect. We were billeted with landladies.
CB: Land Army.
KK: Landladies who were provided guests, for guests when Blackpool was a holiday resort. The only thing really of any note that I can remember of Blackpool was that we did go and play Blackpool play football and I did have the privilege of seeing Stanley Matthews and Ted Mortenson in action. But other than that not much recollection of Blackpool [laughs] We then entrained for Liverpool and we went onboard a twenty thousand ton boat called the Stirling Castle. One of the Union Lines. Of course, our destination other than being South Africa was not on our route was officially not known but by the time we’d set sail the word had already got around that we were going to call in at Bahia in Brazil. Well, we set sail two hundred at a time in what we called mess decks where they cleared the cabins out and in the large space we were that they had tables and benches and we were provided with hammocks which we slung to the beams two hundred at a time per mess deck. And the first night out of Liverpool we hit a full blooded Atlantic gale. Well, we had altogether over five thousand men on board the Stirling Castle and three thousand five hundred of them were sick. And as you can imagine it was an utter shambles. As fast as they got in the toilets, and they were pretty small ones we had to drag them out again to let somebody else in. On our mess deck there were eight of us who sat down for breakfast that morning and they provided us with stew. I didn’t eat the stew. I stuck to white bread rolls and treacle. I was never seasick. In fact, I’ve never been travel sick at all. I was fortunate. But as one can imagine it was pretty horrendous those first few days. We were enjoined a ten knot convoy of cargo boats with escorting destroyers and we trundled all the way down the middle of the Atlantic to Bahia. We anchored in the river at Bahia while all the vessels pulled up three or four at a time up to the quayside to rewater. When it was, we eventually tied up and rewatered and we were taken ashore for a route march to stretch our legs. And as is inevitable a number decided that they’d like to see a little bit more of Bahia and managed to fall out but they soon got picked up and brought back and put down in to the cells for their trouble. The funniest thing we saw when we were tied up at the quay, there were a group of us sat up on deck watching some of the sailors come back to their ships. They were allowed ashore and we saw three sailors come back very, very much the worse for a little drop of drink. Two of them weren’t too bad and they were carrying, half carrying the third man. Unfortunately, they dropped him and he fell into a puddle of water about three inches deep. And it was an absolute hoot to us to watch that poor sod trying to swim his way out of that puddle [laughs] You don’t forget these things. I’ve, you probably noticed I’ve got a fairly good memory for detail but oh dear. That was a, we continued on our voyage but the only interesting thing we ever saw of course were the flying fish. And eventually we called in at our destination which was Durban. And I don’t know how many people remember her but there was a lady who stood on the end of the mole. The lady in white, with a big megaphone singing patriotic songs to the troops on board the British ships which called in there. And I saw her. And I and heard her —
CB: Stopping in just a mo.
[recording paused]
CB: So, who was this lady at the end of the mole? What was her name?
KK: Perla White.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Perla Gibson. The Lady in White.
CB: Lady in white. Yeah.
KK: Yeah.
CB: At Durban then.
KK: And that was Durban. We didn’t see anything of Durban. We went, we disembarked straight onto a train which we were on for two days. Travelled inland via Ladysmith and down to East London. We were in a camp outside of East London and we marched oh something from like three or four miles to the camp from the railway station at East London carrying all our kit. Kit bags and everything because we’d already been issued with our tropical kit before we left England. At East London we were there three months I suppose, continuing with our theoretical instruction.
CB: As a navigator.
KK: For a navigator. Yeah. And we then moved up to Queenstown which was inland. I suppose a hundred, a hundred and fifty miles west of East London. There we started flying training on Oxfords and Ansons and my first flight was on the 3rd of April 1943 with a Lieutenant Chimes as second navigator for air experience. And that took two hours and twenty five minutes.
CB: So that was your first experience flying as a navigator.
KK: Which was my first experience as flying as a navigator. My second flight was three hours and ten minutes and I was first navigator for an hour and a half of that period. Half of it. And then I did second navigator while the second navigator took over as first. And so it proceeded. It was, oh yes it was 47 Air School at Queenstown. In the June we moved up to a place called Aliwal North where we did night flying before returning in the June. Yes. That’s still. It was only for two weeks. We did the night flying. Flew every night virtually. We were under canvas there. And my last flight in training in South Africa was the 7th of July. Well, 1943. Well, well, well in another couple, three days it will be the anniversary. And I qualified having passed my examinations.
CB: So how much flying would you have done at that stage?
KK: And at that stage my total flying time was sixty three, sixty four hours day flying and eighteen hours, eighteen and a half hours night flying. I was a qualified navigator with less than a hundred hours of flying experience.
CB: So what sort of ceremony was there for receiving the wings? Was there a parade? And then?
KK: I believe there was a parade. Yes. But I’ve no recollection of it. We had a passing out dinner. And very shortly afterwards by the middle of July ’43 we were on our way back home. I think it was about mid-July ’43 that we moved down to Cape Town by train [pause] to await a boat. And I don’t remember very much about Cape Town other than the very strict instruction that we stayed out of District 6. Reverting back to our flying at Queenstown where we were a hundred and fifty miles inland of the coast it was a big flat featureless plain with not a lot of features you could use for navigational purposes. But if we ever had difficulty in finding our way back to base we only needed to look eastward at the mountain range along the coast, east coast of South Africa and look for a very prominent mountain called Hangklip which stood up like a sore thumb. And if we saw Hang, could see Hangklip we turned in that direction. Then we would get back to base quite comfortably. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. These things come back to you. Oh dear. Well, we embarked on the Mauretania, Cunard vessel, the new one, to come back to the UK with, it was already packed with passengers. British troops coming back from the Middle East, British families coming back from the Middle East and a lot of Eastern European troops who were supposedly loyal to the allies and not to the Germans. Well, the families didn’t do any work. The British troops did the cleaning the cooking and everything else. The Eastern Europeans wouldn’t. Didn’t do anything at all. But all the trained aircrew, all with their new insignia of navigators or pilots and all with their brand new three stripes as sergeants were handed rifles and told to do guard duty on the companionways, on the stairwells and so on. Most interesting. The journey back to Liverpool was supposed to be fourteen sailing days with three days at Freetown but it took a day longer as we had to do a diversion because the Mauretania was being tracked by a U-boat. We eventually got back to the UK, Liverpool sometime, I believe in August 1943. And —
CB: Where did you dock?
KK: Went on leave.
CB: Where did you dock coming back?
KK: We docked at Liverpool.
CB: Right.
KK: I think we had three weeks leave. Now, what’s the name of the [pause] when after our leave, oh you had to report to a Holding Centre, I think up in Yorkshire the name of which escapes me at the moment. Begins with H. And I was posted to number 83 OTU. OTU. That’s not Officer Training Unit. It’s —
CB: No. Operational Training Unit.
KK: Operational —
CB: Yeah.
KK: Training Unit.
CB: Which number? 83.
KK: 83.
CB: Yeah.
KK: At Peplow. Childs Ercall in Shropshire.
CB: Yeah.
KK: And that was early September ’43 and I did my first flight in a Wellington on the 17th of September ’43 as a navigator, with the pilot I eventually flew with and with an instructor, Pilot Officer Horan. And we did circuits and bumps for one hour and fifteen minutes. And we did a second flight in the afternoon with a the same pilot but, and another hour and fifteen minutes. And on the 19th we did circuits and landings again. And again twice on the 19th. Three times on the 19th. And on the 21st, circuits and bumps. And we continued doing circuits and bumps for several more days.[laughs] Oh dear.
CB: What did you learn?
KK: It looks as though I’d started off right at the beginning with a Sergeant Thornton because in the early days of arriving at Peplow we had been crewed up. And to my recollection a heap of pilots, a heap of navigators, bomb aimers and wireless ops were all put in to a room and said, ‘Sort yourselves out into crews.’ And I believe that was the normal practice of selecting or crews selecting themselves.
CB: Yeah. What process did you go through? Who took the initiative? Was it the pilot or —
KK: Well, we sort of mingled around until you sort of saw somebody you liked the look of. That’s how it happened.
CB: So you got your —
KK: You know, you just —
CB: You got your crew of six.
KK: We got a crew of [pause] no. We only —
CB: No five.
KK: In the beginning we only got a crew of four.
CB: Oh, did you?
KK: Well, we, we didn’t want, no. No. No. It must have been five because we had a rear gunner. We didn’t have a mid-up gunner.
CB: No.
KK: We didn’t have an engineer. So it would have been five. Yeah. And that’s all we seemed to do for the whole, whole month of September was circuits and landings.
CB: What about cross countries?
KK: We didn’t do them. The first cross country was the 1st of October. So we’d done three weeks of circuits. Nearly three weeks of circuits and bumps.
CB: How strange.
KK: And our first cross country from base Fakenham, Saffron Waldon, Faringdon, Fakenham, back to base. Six hours and thirty minutes with a low level bombing and air sea firing.
CB: And the air sea firing was against towed, motor boat towed targets was it?
KK: No. I think it was just [laughs] I don’t know. I wasn’t there. I was down the back.
CB: Couldn’t see.
KK: One couldn’t see. No. No.
CB: What about air to air firing? Did you have the fighter affiliation?
KK: No.
CB: Right.
KK: Never. Never. Never. And we only did three cross countries before we went and did several low level or high level bombing runs to how far away the target was I don’t know. But they were relatively short trips and it wasn’t until the 21st of October that we did our first night cross country. So we were pitched into heavy aircraft on long circuits, even after dark after relatively little experience.
CB: What do you think the reason for all these circuits and bumps? What was the pilot like?
KK: He was very good. Our pilot was very good. But that was all we did. It was getting the feel of a, of a big heavy aircraft. But yeah, a whole month of circuits and bumps.
CB: Yeah. Extraordinary. Were they at out stations or always your own?
KK: Oh, our own.
CB: Always.
KK: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
KK: So some of them —
CB: At Peplow in other words.
KK: Yeah.
CB: So you didn’t feel as though you were fully engaged then as a navigator.
KK: Well, when you’re only doing circuits and bumps there’s nothing for you to providing you know you keep within more or less visual distance of the, of the airfield. But that was it. All we were doing was banging the damned thing up and down. But only three cross country, day countries before we did a night cross country.
CB: Right. How did you get on with that?
KK: Well, that was six hours from base to Downham Market, Northallerton, Scarborough, Goole, Saffron Waldon.
CB: In your —
KK: Faringdon, Peterborough, back to base.
CB: In your navigation training to what extent did you do night ops? Night training. Because this wasn’t your first experience of —
KK: That was the first night cross country that we’d done in the UK.
CB: Right.
KK: The other night crossing night had been in South Africa where I’d done eighteen, twenty four, twenty five, thirty five, thirty. Only done thirty seven hours night flying prior to that.
CB: Yeah.
KK: But we did several night cross countries in the November.
CB: How did you find that in relation to the visibility and weather in general compared with doing your training in South Africa.
KK: Weather in South Africa was good. Here it was very variable. But the night flying that we did at OTU, well I’ve got night, I’ve got three, two [pause] in the first two months I’d done two cross countries and two sessions of circuits and bumps at night. And then all my flying in the December we did several more, four more night cross countries. And then we did our first op.
CB: In a Wellington.
KK: In a Wellington.
CB: Was that standard practice?
KK: Yeah.
CB: To go on an op. And was that nickelling?
KK: It was a nickel.
CB: Yeah. So dropping leaflets.
KK: And it was a bit of hairy one.
CB: Was it? Where did you go?
KK: Le Touquet. And then our dropping point was an unnamed point in about I think fifty or sixty miles inland from Le Touquet.
CB: What was hairy about that? Was it to do with the enemy action or your aeroplane’s reliability?
KK: No. It was rather unfortunate actually because we were a bit ahead of time. And in order to get back to our correct timing we did a dog leg which in —
[recording paused -telephone ringing]
CB: Sorry. Go on.
KK: Which in, in theory is very good but not necessarily in practice and it put us off course and we crossed the coast a little bit too close to Boulogne. And we got shot at and we collected quite a lot of shrapnel.
CB: How did the plane fly after that?
KK: Perfectly all right.
CB: So when you landed what was the reaction of the ground crew?
KK: Well, when we got hit, well on the way back one engine gave a bit of a hiccup up over the Isle of Wight but continued on alright. We lost our hydraulics. We had to pump the wheels down. We had to pump the flaps down. And we collected quite a lot of shrapnel. And when we landed we found our wireless aerial was wrapped around the tail plane. But none of us were hurt at all.
CB: No. I was wondering what the feedback was you got from the ground crew when you presented them with this —
KK: Well, I think the aircraft, the aircraft went back to Maintenance Unit.
CB: Did it?
KK: For repair.
CB: Right. Yeah.
KK: And that was three days before Christmas.
CB: Right. So what happened next?
KK: Well, we had a few days off and then we did a bit of high level bombing practice at Fenn’s Moss.
CB: Where’s Fenn’s Moss?
KK: Haven’t a clue.
CB: In the, in the Wash, is it?
KK: I should imagine so.
CB: So you’re getting towards the end of your OTU section are you?
[pause]
KK: Well, I finished up with eighty seven hours on Wellingtons. And then at the beginning —
CB: That was predominantly at night I suppose, was it?
KK: Yeah. Mostly night.
CB: So, after OTU where did you go then?
KK: And then I went to [pause]
CB: It’s Heavy Conversion Unit next, is it?
KK: I went on to 1651 Conversion Unit.
CB: HCU. Where was that?
KK: West Wratting.
CB: Oh yes. So, now we’re on four engines.
KK: And now we’re on four engines. Yeah.
CB: Was this initially on Stirlings or straight on to Lancaster?
KK: Pardon?
CB: Was this initially on Stirlings or straight on to Lancasters at this time.
KK: No. No. This was we were Stirling only [pause] I didn’t do any flying for a month.
CB: Did the Stirling have a lot of ground school?
KK: Yes. I think it was. There was quite a lot of ground school and before we, because we didn’t start flying on the Stirlings until the beginning of March.
CB: Oh right.
KK: So I lost the whole of February but in, but in that, in the February I had to take leave because my father died.
CB: Oh right.
KK: So the crew may have done some flying but I wasn’t there with them. I was away. Never mind.
CB: So even in the HCU they would have spare navigators would they?
KK: I think so. Yeah.
CB: When you got to the HCU you were short of a mid-upper and an engineer. So, how did you get those?
KK: They were allocated to us.
CB: Oh.
KK: They sort of got drafted in.
CB: You didn’t pick them from a gaggle.
KK: No.
CB: In a room.
KK: Not to my recollection. No. May have done. But —
CB: So what’s happening at HCU?
KK: So, but we had a little bit of a mishap.
CB: Did you?
KK: Yeah. 28th of March ’44. We did a cross country and when we landed a tyre burst.
CB: Oh.
KK: Oh yes. For some reason or other we got recalled on the first leg of our cross country. And when we landed the tyre burst and we skidded all over the airfield. We missed the bomb dump by about twenty yards. Went through a dispersal hut, hit an oak tree and fell into a ditch just a few feet short of the twenty foot thick brick wall of the firing range. And unfortunately the aircraft fell apart. The wings fell out. The wings —
CB: The wings dropped did they?
KK: The engine, all four engines fell off and it broke its back.
CB: Oh. What was the cause? Was it a heavy landing that caused the tyre to burst?
KK: We’ve no idea. We didn’t go so far as to investigate why it burst. It wasn’t a heavy landing.
CB: No.
KK: It [pause] but of course the tyres on a Stirling were enormous.
CB: Yeah.
KK: And it just went pop. I was the only one shall we say injured and I had a little scratch on the back of my hand.
CB: Oh right.
KK: We got away with it. And two days later we did another cross country instead.
CB: Now, these —
KK: The aircraft that we crashed was, or had been in service quite a long time and I think it had done, had already done fifty six operations, many of them mine laying ones and had been on the Conversion Unit for quite a long time.
CB: Had it had much previous damage?
KK: I don’t think so.
CB: No.
KK: I don’t think so.
CB: So you didn’t get another new one because they didn’t have new ones, did they? In the HCU.
KK: Didn’t have new ones. No.
CB: What was the next one like?
KK: We did one more cross county after our crash and then we got transferred at the beginning of April ’44 to Number 3 Lancaster Finishing School up at Feltwell which was only, it wasn’t all, well yes it was up near Cambridge.
CB: How did you like the Lancaster in comparison with the Stirling?
KK: Oh, we had no complaint about the Stirling. You know it was very, very airworthy. It was, you know a nice aircraft to fly but it, but it looked so ungainly on the on the ground. I haven’t, it was possible to take a few liberties with, with a Stirling. I believe that somebody even rolled one. Yeah. You don’t do that very often. We didn’t but we didn’t try. But that, but it was a very good aircraft to fly. As indeed the Lancaster was as well. And we did our, of course we get with some of these gaps where we did get a bit of leave from time to time between units. And the first flight we did at the Lancaster Finishing School was the middle of April ’44. Again, circuits and landings.
[pause]
KK: Oh dear. We, one of the, one of our early, we did two trips of circuits and bumps and then our third trip we had to do evasive action exercises [laughs] In other words [laughs] we had to dodge a bit of flak. And then we did four trips. Cross countries. No. Four night trips of which one was a [pause] yeah.
CB: So the cross countries were all at night were they?
KK: Yeah. Yes. As a matter of fact at Lancaster Finishing School we did a few daylight circuits and bumps and an evasive actions exercise. We did three night circuits and bumps and one cross country. And that’s all we did before we went to squadron and on that Lancaster cross country we, I’ve got down here, “Close shave with an ME410 and British ack ack fire.” So we got tangled up with an air raid somewhere. Don’t know quite where it was.
CB: But the 410 was an interdictor night fighter.
KK: Yeah.
CB: Who saw that?
KK: So, we saw that to be able to identify it.
CB: Yeah.
KK: And then we went on the squadron.
CB: When was that?
KK: And I got on, and the first I got on the squadron in the last few days of April ’44 and that was 115.
CB: So 115 was also in East Anglia.
KK: Yeah.
CB: And that was where?
KK: And that was at Witchford.
CB: Did you share the airfield with another?
KK: No. No.
CB: And how many aircraft would there be in your squadron? Roughly.
KK: I think we must have had about thirty aircraft because I have no recollection of us ever sending up more than eighteen or twenty on an op. On a single op. Because you always have some under maintenance or being repaired. Frequently being repaired of course.
CB: From flak.
KK: Yeah.
CB: Yeah. Or night fighter. What was the reliability though of the aircraft otherwise?
KK: Oh good. Yeah. Yeah. And on the squadron we did two night cross countries. A daylight high level bombing which was abandoned and some fighter affiliation.
CB: But the fighter affiliation. How did that work?
KK: Don’t know.
CB: You were just sitting in the, in your cabin.
KK: I didn’t see. I was trying to make sure where we were. But you didn’t participate in that. That was the pilot and the gunners. Yes. There was two, two night cross countries, a day cross country and the fighter affiliation and then we did our first operation on the 10th of May ’44. Night, night trip to Courtrais railway yards.
[pause]
CB: So were there exciting, were some of the ops quite exciting or did they tend to be somewhat of a bus run?
KK: Well, we still did quite a lot of flying. Non-operational. I’ve got down here air testing. Air test. Cross country. Delivering an aircraft from Waterbeach to Witchford. Beam approach exercises.
CB: The beam approach was to help you get to the airfield in the dark. Was it?
KK: Presumably so. The second op was to Leuven which was aborted. And we dropped the bombs in mid-Channel because, well it was a whole quantity of them because you couldn’t land a fully loaded Lanc.
CB: On that topic —
KK: Oh yes. The reason that we had to abort it and this was only our second operation the front hatch fell out.
CB: Oh.
KK: So the bomb aimer couldn’t —
CB: He couldn’t lie down.
KK: Lie down. But in order to dispose of some of the bombs he nevertheless had to climb down into and straddle the hole. Well, he put his parachute on and clambered down there. And when he came back up our pilot, Jack said to him, ‘Oh, by the way, Jack,’ we had the two, two Jacks, ‘By the way Jack, what about your dinghy?’ He’d climbed down there, straddled the hole, had his parachute on in case he fell out but he didn’t have his dinghy so he’d have got damned wet. He’d forgotten it. Yes. Our front hatch fell out on take off.
CB: Oh right.
KK: Very embarrassing. And that was only our second op.
CB: So you didn’t go far.
KK: No.
CB: You just needed to go over the water to get rid of the bombs.
KK: We just had to get rid of the bombs. Then we went to Le Mans. Again railway yards. Then our first German trip was the 21st of May when we went to Duisburg. And that was not a very happy trip because we had to do three bombing runs. We had two attempts before we made the third one. We had to go around, around and around the bloody target.
CB: What was the —
KK: And when you’re over Happy Valley.
CB: Yeah.
KK: It’s not the best thing in the world to do.
CB: So what caused that? Needing to go around again.
KK: We just couldn’t get a decent run at the target.
CB: What do you mean by that? That the bomb aimer couldn’t see the target.
KK: We —
CB: Or you were off beam —
KK: We, for some reasons we couldn’t get a run at the, direct run at the target. Other aircraft may have been —
CB: In the way.
KK: Flak, searchlights. You can’t always go straight in to the target. Much as you would like to. If you were off and the bomb aimer couldn’t see the target or couldn’t get a decent pot shot at it. Well, some crews I know just jettisoned but we didn’t. We were too, too green. We were only on about our third or fourth op. So we went around again and again.
CB: So when you —
KK: And had three goes at it.
CB: Right. So here you are in a bomber stream where there are large numbers of planes streaming by and you can’t see them.
KK: You can’t see them.
CB: How do you feel about going left and then left again? And then another left.
KK: Yeah. Well, of course you kept left. You always did.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
KK: There was no one coming at you.
CB: No. But you’re rejoining the stream.
KK: But you did a fairly wide run. But we were over the target about a quarter of an hour. Yeah. That was Duisburg. Then May. We did a trip to Boulogne. Then we went to Aachen [pause] And our, and we found that we’d got some punctures in our when we got back actually in our, one of our fuel tanks. We’d got some shrapnel in them. Then we went to Angers. Again railways. You see we did a lot on railways.
CB: Yeah. Because what we’re doing is talking about the run up to D-Day.
KK: This is the run up D-day.
CB: Disrupting the communications.
KK: Yeah. Then we went to Angers. Again on railways. Then Trappes. But that was aborted and we jettisoned some of our bombs in the, in the Wash and my note says, “Weather awful. Cumulonimbus and lightning.” Yes. I seem to remember that one. Have you ever been in a, up in a thunderstorm?
CB: No. I haven’t. No. So what’s it —
KK: Lightning.
CB: What’s it like?
KK: At night, horrifying because you got blue lights up, up and down the wings. Around and around the props. Up and down the —
CB: And you’re inside of this.
KK: And you’re just all lit up
CB: Electrical column. Yeah.
KK: Yeah. That was another abortion.
CB: So what is it then that causes it to be aborted? The fact that there’s, is it dangerous.
KK: Well, in no way could we continue.
CB: To get out of it.
KK: In weather like that. You see this is the trouble with many of these thunder heads go up to thirty thousand feet or more.
CB: Right.
KK: And I always remember when I was on the communication squadron on an Anson and we were flying between Paris and Brussels and we were skirting around a damned great thunder storm and we were only in the sort of little wispy edges of it and we were flying straight and level but we were going up five thousand feet a minute. So the pilot just shoved the nose down and we were going down at about three, four thousand feet a minute but we were still going up. And that was only in the wispy bits.
CB: Right.
KK: You know, so we very carefully high tailed it out. Out of the way.
CB: So, the squadron used to go as a group. Did the other members of the squadron have the same experiences as yourselves?
KK: Oh yes.
CB: Come back.
KK: Oh yeah. Yes. But you didn’t abandon unless things were dodgy.
CB: Yeah.
KK: No way could we have got through to wherever it was we were supposed to be going.
CB: No. Right. Ok. Are you still on, after that on French targets or are you changing now to German again?
KK: No. Oh well, the one where we abandoned. Then of course comes June. The beginning of June we went after the guns at Calais. And then the day before D-Day we did an hour and a half formation flying in preparation for doing daylights.
CB: Right. This was in daylight.
KK: Pardon?
CB: In daylight this was. Yeah.
KK: Yeah. We didn’t like. Well, when we got operational on daylights we didn’t like them because if you’re a night bomber you’ve got you’re flying in your own cocoon of darkness.
CB: Yeah.
KK: You can’t see what is going on. You can’t see the other aircraft. The thing that we hated was being lit up by searchlights. You couldn’t see flak other than little pinpoints of light. But when you’re on a daylight and you’re approaching the target and the sky is completely black with, where shells had gone off, completely black. You know, there’s no use think they’ve already gone bang. It’s what’s going up when you get there that is going to go bang under your tail.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Didn’t like that. There was a lot of comfort in darkness at twenty thousand feet.
CB: On an operation what actually is the most discomforting part of the flight? Describe it.
KK: The rear gunner calling out to the pilot, ‘Rear gunner to pilot. We’ve got a bandit on our tail.’ And we picked up three one night.
CB: On the same night.
KK: The same run.
CB: Did you? Right.
KK: I got a note, note of it somewhere. I forget which op.
CB: So, that’s —
KK: Oh yeah. That was a trip that we did later on to Gelsenkirchen in Happy Valley.
CB: Yeah.
KK: We had three combats and we also got some flak damage.
CB: So, when the night fighters are coming up and you’re they’re being reported by the gunners what’s the skipper’s reaction normally?
KK: Usually, well usually the gunner, the appropriate gunner and in this particular case when we had the three it was our rear gunner picked them up. With one of them we passed, we passed an aircraft and the mid-upper gunner said, ‘We’re just passing, I think it’s another Lanc.’ And when the rear gunner saw it he said, ‘It’s not a bloody Lanc. It’s a JU88.’ Sideways on they looked very similar.
CB: And he hadn’t seen you presumably.
KK: And it wasn’t until we’d gone passed him he saw us and came in on curve of pursuit. And our, on all three attacks our rear gunner spotted them. Spotted that they, you know that they were coming in or in the vicinity and told the pilot, ‘Right. Be prepared to corkscrew,’ port starboard dependant on where the aircraft was.
CB: The German aircraft.
KK: The German aircraft. Whether it was high or low and which, which way it was coming in because an attacking aircraft would always come in on a curve of pursuit. Because at one point in that curve of pursuit was a non-deflection shot. You could fire straight.
CB: Straight on, yeah.
KK: And with a good rear gunner, a good gunner knew where that deflection shot was. He would prepare your pilot to corkscrew appropriately and when the attacking aircraft all but got to the no deflection shot, ‘Go. Go. Go.’ Sorry. And we would go. And the navigator would lose every bloody thing.
CB: Yes.
KK: By the time he’d picked it up off the floor there’d be another one [laughs] Yeah. We picked up three one night.
CB: So did they gunners fire on those planes or —
KK: Oh, well if we —
CB: At that time.
KK: You know, but if if you’re going down in a curve of pursuit. Sorry, in a —
CB: Corkscrew.
KK: Corkscrew.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Then any firing is going to being very haphazard.
CB: Not just that. You don’t want to advertise with the muzzle flashes.
KK: Well, there we are. Exactly. But that was the situation. We, we picked up three on the, the three combats at Gelsenkirchen.
CB: Yes.
KK: And that’s hairy enough to go to anyway. In the middle of Happy Valley you take, I think they reckon there were in the Ruhr Valley they had ten thousand anti-aircraft guns. That’s rather a lot. Of course we were out on D-Day. We were briefed at about 3 o’clock in the morning to do a little trip across the Channel at fifteen thousand feet to the coast of Normandy and drop five ton of bombs on the German guns at the mouth of the River Orne at Ouistreham, and then continue south, turn left, turn left again, a bit of throttle, nose down, belt for home. Straightforward little run on German guns which we’d done previously. And the CO got up and he said, ‘Oh, by the way chaps. You may see a little bit more activity in the Channel this morning,’ because we were due to bomb at 7 o’clock in the morning.
CB: Right.
KK: He couldn’t say of course that, you know the balloon was going up. You know all hell was going to let loose.
CB: That it was D-Day. Yeah.
KK: Because of secrecy. But that was his remark, ‘You may see a little bit more activity in the Channel.’ Well, we didn’t see a damned thing.
CB: Oh.
KK: Because it was ten tenths cloud virtually all the way until we got to Normandy and we went in half an hour before the troops did.
CB: Now, at this time are you getting the benefit of H2S?
KK: It was fitted to some of the aircraft but it wasn’t until I think part the way through our tour that we flew aircraft, some of the aircraft that were fitted with it. Not that it did much good but there you are.
CB: How did you feel about it?
KK: It wasn’t a lot of good. It was alright if you knew where you were [laughs] But it wasn’t until only a few years ago I was talking to one of my members of the Aircrew Association who, and I said to him, this was in June one year I said, ‘What did you do on the 6th of June?’ ‘Oh,’ he says, ‘I was on Lancs.’ he said. ‘I did a trip down to the mouth of the river Orne and dropped bombs on, at Ouistreham.’ 7 o’clock in the morning. I said I was on that River Orne raid as well. But he wasn’t on my squadron, you see.
CB: Right.
KK: I said, and he said, ‘When I got back home,’ he said, ‘I went home on leave.’ That was it. The, everything just proceeded as normal. It was part of the deception because the Germans right up, right up until I think forty eight hours after the invasion did they realise that was it. That we weren’t going in the short route. And of course as you probably twigged from all your researches and talks with people that there weren’t any computers in those days.
CB: No.
KK: That operation had been planned with pencil and paper. And it was a massive operation. Thousand upon thousands of men. Masses and masses of material and the Mulberry Harbour and everything. It was unbelievable. And as I say put together on pencil and paper. Had that operation been dreamed up before the war? You know, before the war we knew there was a war coming. It was inevitable but these defence johnnies are way ahead of the time and had got plans in hand for eventualities.
CB: Yeah.
KK: And they must have had thoughts in their minds, if not on paper as to if a war happens and we have to do an invasion how do we do it?
CB: Yeah.
KK: Worth thinking about.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Did, did I presume Mary told you that she was stationed at Hamble.
CB: Yes. Absolutely.
KK: And you could walk from Southampton to Cowes without getting your feet wet.
CB: Yes. [laughs] Yes. If you had a strong faith [laughs] So, what happened then? After D-Day.
KK: Well, we went out a second time on D-Day.
CB: Oh, did you?
KK: We did another trip.
CB: Right.
KK: Down to Leuseur which was just off the beachhead which was a road and rail centre. Obviously with the intention of trying to stop reinforcements coming up. And we crossed the Channel at two thousand feet.
CB: Oh, did you?
KK: And then climbed up to ten thousand feet for the bombing run. But it, we didn’t care for it at all because by that time the cloud has cleared. And unfortunately the British Navy did not like aircraft.
CB: No.
KK: And they took pot shots at everything. And we earned, not one of our aircraft but we did see one of the bombers engaged that night shot down in the middle of the Channel by our own people.
CB: Oh really. Right.
KK: And we passed over from one end to the other of a big navy boat. We could have planted a thousand pounder straight down his chimney pot just like that. At two thousand feet we wouldn’t have missed. But that was the, and the Royal Navy was a bigger hazard actually then a lot of the Germans.
CB: Yeah. In the good light.
KK: Day or night. They, they took pot shots at everything. Everything. And as I said on D-Day I think there were probably more than one aircraft of our own got shot down. Yes. We, we still did our air tests. Dear, oh dear, oh dear. Test flights. Always doing test flights because aircraft had to be repaired or, and maintained.
CB: Yeah. Serviced. Yeah.
KK: And taken up. Sometimes we’d only do a half hour air test. Other times we’d do a two hour one when we’d have to chuck the aircraft around a little bit. Always a two hour air test culminated in a nose dive.
CB: Oh, did it?
KK: Yeah. From thirteen thousand feet. I mean we’d be doing three hundred and fifty, three hundred and sixty mile an hour when we’d pull out and I don’t know whether you’ve ever seen a Lancasters wings flap but they do at six feet.
CB: Yeah. I saw it. Flying in it.
KK: And you always knew that if they wings fell off the aircraft failed the test.
CB: Particularly if you didn’t have your parachutes ready.
KK: Yeah.
CB: What was the VNE? What was the maximum speed you were supposed to be able to take a Lancaster too?
KK: Well, in a nose dive certainly you’d never get up to four hundred. But the fastest I think I’ve ever flown in a Lancaster would have been about three sixty.
CB: Yes.
KK: And that was in a nose dive. Straight and level we used to, we would cruise at what? One seventy, one eighty.
CB: Knots we’re talking about.
KK: Knots. Yeah. So, and sometimes on a return journey yes we would push it up to two hundred and fifty. On one occasion I know our instructions on a German target was that on the approach put your nose down a bit and increase speed so that we went through at the target at two hundred and forty indicated.
CB: Oh.
KK: Which was getting pretty, no. Sorry. Two hundred indicated.
CB: Yeah.
KK: That was, would have been about two forty actual and we’d had a sixty mile an hour tail wind.
CB: Right.
KK: Went through the target at three hundred.
CB: But when you set off.
KK: Ground speed.
CB: When you set off on an op then everybody would be told the speeds they’d got to go would they, over the target?
KK: Oh yes. We were given speeds. Routes, speeds and so on. Speeds and route for returning. The only time that we weren’t given speeds and route for returning was when we did, I did that run on Kiel. We did, we were part of the Kiel raid when they sent six hundred and forty aircraft out which was the biggest trip, raid I ever did. But of course, you know, once you, once you left the target right you just stuck the nose down and belted. It was, being straight across the North Sea there was no, no problem. You didn’t have to worry too much.
CB: No. So, after your two day, two ops in one day on D-Day.
KK: Yeah.
CB: What happened after that?
KK: Oh, we were, yeah, we did some test flights and then on the 14th [pause ] Oh yeah, we did and after D-Day we did a trip to Dreux railway yards. Then we went to Gelsenkirchen when we had the combats. And then we did some more test flights. Then we went to Le Havre. Dumped some bombs on the shipping in the harbour there. Then we did some did one to Valenciennes. Railway yards again. That’s when we, we lost six aircraft that night.
CB: This is to flak or to fighters?
KK: I don’t know. No. We saw six go.
CB: Oh, you saw them.
KK: We saw them. Yeah. Who they were we don’t know. There were a lot of enemy aircraft around that night. Then we did a bit of fighter affiliation. An air test. An air test. An air test. Another air test. And then we did a daylight. On to Normandy. 30th of June. Villers-Bocage. Yes. I remember the Villers-Bocage one. We were after a German Panzer division.
CB: This was at the time of the Falaise Gap was it?
KK: Probably. Yes. This was three weeks after the invasion.
CB: Oh right.
KK: They were still very much bogged down.
CB: Bogged down. That wasn’t the Falaise Gap.
KK: Yeah. Then we did, then we did another one too, another daylight to Beauvais. Oh yeah. Beauvais. I remember that was a, that was a Doodlebug launching pad. And we came back on three engines. We, our port, starboard outer caught fire over the target.
CB: Just caught fire or was hit?
KK: Caught fire. I don’t think there was much flak. Well, at any rate caught fire. The reasons I don’t know but we put the, we soon put it out and sort of reduced our speed a little bit and of course everybody came, came up and waved to us and went on their way and got a rollicking from the flight commander when they got back, ‘Somebody ought to have stayed behind with Thornton and his crew. Seen them back across the Channel.’ It was a daylight. We had, we were supposed to have fighter cover at twenty thousand feet but we never saw them. We never saw any fighter cover on daylights.
CB: What, what height did you bomb the V-1 site?
KK: Probably no more than fifteen thousand.
CB: Right.
KK: Really. It was only night time that we went to twenty, twenty two thousand.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Most of the, most of the other ones were fifteen thousand. Nucourt, we went to. God knows what Nucourt was. I’ve not a —
CB: So then we how many more of them in the tour?
KK: Oh, then we went to Emeville. I remember Emeville very well because that was troop concentrations we were after.
CB: Right.
KK: And I think it was one of the few occasions I ever went up the front on a bomber run. I know I did it when the engine caught fire but when we went to Emeville on the run up it was a daylight and I looked out the front there where the pilot was. I stood behind the pilot. The sky was completely black with flak and I thought, bloody hell. Oh well, it’s already gone bang. There’s a lot more going to come up and go bang. But we didn’t —
CB: You didn’t get hit. No.
KK: And I think it was on that operation. It might have been the Villers-Bocage one I saw a Lancaster go down. It just went spiralling down and down and down. Boom. It wasn’t on fire or anything like that. It just went down. I see it from time to time. Still nobody gets out.
CB: Oh. They didn’t get out of that.
KK: Nobody got out.
CB: How strange.
KK: And even when I see it, recollect it, nobody gets out. Seven men. Yeah. More railway yards. Homberg in the Ruhr.
CB: Just going back on that when it goes down in a corkscrew what sort of reasons for nobody getting out? Would you and your colleagues think was the reason.
KK: Have you ever tried? Well —
CB: It’s difficult. The centrifugal force.
KK: Well, anybody up the front other than the probably the bomb aimer might have been able to get out through his —
CB: Hatch. Yeah.
KK: The rear gunner I guess could get out. Nobody else could. Nobody else could. Homberg was a nasty one on the oil refinery there. Lost a hundred and twenty aircraft. A hundred and thirty aircraft took part in the operation and twenty were lost. We lost six out of eighteen from our squadron on an innocuous French operation on one occasion. They sent nineteen aircraft out on the dam raid and only lost eight. They ought to have lost the lot.
CB: Amazing.
KK: To be quite honest.
CB: Yeah.
KK: And when we sent out eighteen aircraft and lose six of them. On just as I said an innocuous French trip.
CB: Extraordinary.
KK: Absolutely. You know —
CB: In the daylight was there much fighter activity against you?
KK: Quite honestly we never saw any fighters in daylight.
CB: Daylight. Right. So it’s all flak.
KK: Any, any fighters we’ve seen —
CB: Yeah.
KK: Seemed to have always been at night.
CB: Right.
KK: Then, oh yes I mentioned the Kiel raid. Yes. It was the first three thousand ton raid. Dumped it in twenty minutes. Three thousand.
CB: Three thousand tons of bombs.
KK: Six hundred and forty aircraft.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Oh, then we did to Amaye Sur, I think that was down on the, in Normandy. We bombed at two thousand feet. That’s low level [laughs] for heavies. And on, and when we came back we had to, we got diverted to Woodbridge. I think Witchford was fogged in so we got diverted to Woodbridge which was just a single runway. Emergency runway.
CB: That was very wide and very long.
KK: It was. Yeah.
CB: And there was nothing wrong with your aircraft.
KK: No.
CB: No.
KK: It was just a diversion.
CB: Just a diversion. Right.
KK: Yes. Umpteen French targets we were after. All in support of the invasion.
CB: Yes.
KK: And Brunswick we went to. That was a longish trip too. I did a little, oh yes we did one of the Stuttgart runs on the 25th of July. We, the, they did three major raids on Stuttgart on three successive nights.
CB: Oh.
KK: And I think that was the longest flight. The longest bombing trip —
CB: That you did.
KK: That we did. Took seven and a half hours.
CB: Was that a single one you did or did you go back?
KK: That. We did one of the three.
CB: Right. Ok.
KK: We didn’t do all three. No. Yeah. Did, we did we went to Brunswick and then we did, we did a daylight on the 14th of August. On the, on troop concentrations. And that was it.
CB: That was your last. Yes.
KK: So, from the 1st operation that we’d done at Witchford we’d done the lot between the 10th of May.
CB: Yeah.
KK: And the 14th of August.
CB: Yeah. You did thirty ops.
KK: Twenty nine with the one on the Wellingtons which made up the thirty.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Yeah.
CB: So, then what? Did you get some leave? Or what happened next?
KK: Got sent up to Nairn.
CB: Oh.
KK: Which was an Aircrew Dispersal Centre.
CB: Yeah.
KK: For reallocation. And having been up there for three weeks sent us home on leave.
CB: Then what?
KK: And then I got posted to the SHAFE Communications Squadron at Gatwick.
CB: Right.
KK: And that was in the, I got there in the October. I must have had a fairly extended, well, I’d been I did my last op as I said on the 14th of August. I think it was the beginning of September we got sent up to Nairn.
CB: Right.
KK: Up there for three weeks. Then sent home on leave. So, you know the time went.
CB: Yeah. What planes were you flying then?
KK: What?
CB: The SHAFE. What were you flying?
KK: Basically Ansons. And some of them were some pretty clapped out aircraft. They’d been around a bit. I think some of them were Mark 1s.
CB: So, that was dangerous.
KK: It was some time before we got a later, later models and which didn’t require the navigator to wind the wheels up. Thank you. And I did my first with the Communications Squadron with Flight Lieutenant Fisher. Gerry Fisher. He was the nephew of the Archbishop of Canterbury.
CB: Oh, was he?
KK: And he’d been a Battle of Britain pilot.
CB: Oh.
KK: And twitched.
CB: Oh really.
KK: As a matter of fact most of our pilots, well all of our pilots on the Comm Squadron were very experienced. Got a lot of service. Done a lot of ops. Several, umpteen of them were Battle of Britain pilots and they were damned good pilots but they were no longer fit for operational duties. So we flew passengers instead [laughs] Passengers and freight.
CB: What was the freight? Documents?
KK: Much of the freight was food stuffs for Supreme Headquarters.
CB: Oh.
KK: Principally eggs by the crate and crates of fish from Grimsby. And passengers. We used to shunt personnel backwards and forwards. And my first flight with lieutenant, Flight Lieutenant Fisher we had to go to Northholt to pick up some passengers and we had to take them to Bruges over in Belgium. And while I was at Northolt I said, ‘Right. Where is the airfield at Bruges?’ So they fished out the appropriate map and said, ‘Right. There’s the [pause] there’s the airfield just north of the town between the river and the canal.’ And when we got to Bruges well, well, well it was under water. Well, there must be a blooming airfield somewhere. There must be a temporary one. So, so we flew around and around in circles until we found this temporary airfield in a field and we called them up and all they had was a little caravan there and we landed and I went up to the control caravan and I said, ‘We had a hell of a job trying to find you. We’d been told the airfield was just north of the town.’ Oh yes. And the controller said, he says, ‘Do you realise,’ he says, ‘Just the other side of that hedge over there we’ve got the Germans’. We’d been cruising around. Flying around and around over the front line and they were virtually on the front line with this blooming airfield. And that was our, my first trip with, oh dear. We had some —
CB: Were important people with you?
KK: A couple of erks.
CB: Oh [laughs]
KK: They were I think a couple of chaps to go, to take —
CB: A jolly.
KK: For the control caravan.
CB: Oh right.
KK: Yeah. Then we went on to Brussels with the other passengers. And then we flew on down to Versailles. And that’s all we did. Backwards and forwards to the [unclear] to Northolt, Gatwick, Brussels with various pilots. I flew several, quite a number of trips with Fisher. A nice chap. Kitcher. Woods. Oh yeah. I remember Woods. He was nice. He was a very nice fella. Lucas. Daniels. I remember Daniels. He all but caught himself alight when we moved up to Reims. And when we were at Reims we were based on the air field in tents. And we had floorboards in our tent. We nicked the timber off the Yanks. We had electric light. We nicked the generator off the Yanks. And that was the last time that I ever had too much to drink. It was in, around about April at Reims when we broke out, several of us gathered in the tent and I drank two pints of champagne and half a pint of brandy. Cognac. I wasn’t drunk but it gave me a bit of a headache and a bit of a hangover for three days. And trying to fly with a massive hangover for three days is not to be recommended.
CB: But you got there.
KK: And back.
CB: Yes. So we’re in April time. So the war’s just coming to an end.
KK: Oh, well the, yes.
CB: In Europe.
KK: When, the war actually finished while I was at Reims. Because I always remember seeing Field Marshall Jodl come in.
CB: Oh yeah.
KK: In his Junkers, to sign the surrender.
CB: In his JU, JU52.
KK: And that was in the April ’45. And we then, we moved on when the Supreme Headquarters moved up to Frankfurt. We moved up with them at the same time, or just after. A few days afterwards. And we were billeted in flats which we’d thrown the Germans out of. The, I think IG Farben Industries flats. Frankfurt smelled rather strongly because it had been very heavily bombed.
CB: Yeah. Of course.
KK: And there were a lot of people still dead underneath all the rubble.
CB: Not recovered. Yeah.
KK: And the Germans used to burrow in to the rubble, you know to find accommodation for themselves. When they came across bodies they chucked them in the river.
CB: Oh.
KK: Oh, yes. They were always fishing them out. Yeah. Frankfurt. Yeah. We moved up to Frankfurt in the May. And that’s all we did was flogged backwards and forward between various places in Germany to the UK. Sometimes, I did several trips down to Salzburg. I did one to Pilsen in Czechoslovakia. Vienna. Berlin. Of course, it was always a bit dodgy going through, through the Russian zone.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Because you had corridors.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Through the Russian zone. And if you strayed out of the Russian zone, out of the main you could get shot down. If we ever went down to Salzburg which was an American field we always had to take our own petrol down inside the aircraft in Jerry cans because we couldn’t get refuelling facilities there. So, you know, we’d fill up our tanks before we went and carry our own replacement. But of course all the petrol had arrived via the pipeline.
CB: Yeah.
KK: Pluto.
CB: Yes.
KK: And of course you can bet your bottom dollar it was at least twenty five percent of it was water. So it, so you couldn’t fill your aircraft up just like that. You had to filter it through chamois. Chamois leather.
CB: It worked well did it? Yeah.
KK: Oh yeah. It was that bad. Oh yes. It was quite interesting on the Comm Squadron. As I say we got all over the place. We had several other aircraft other than the Ansons. I think we had a Messenger, we had a Proctor, we had a couple of Austers. And we used to take them up occasionally.
CB: When did you finish there with the Comm Squadron?
KK: My last flight was from Buchenberg to Detmold, back to Buchenberg. Thirty five minutes on the 2nd of August 1946. And then a few days later I caught the train up to Cuxhaven and came back by boat for demob.
CB: When were you demobbed?
KK: Hmmn?
CB: When were you demobbed?
KK: Well, immediately I I got back to the UK which was around about the end of August. I went straight over to Hednesford I think it was and was demobbed, and went home on demob leave which was oh about sixty days. So you know where I’d been overseas so long.
CB: What did you do after that?
KK: Went back to work. I had only been working at County Hall for three years and although obviously I had moved up and was doing far more responsible work I’d been away for over, for four, over four and a half years. And I’d done nothing but fly.
CB: Yeah.
KK: And I went back to work and there was my desk and my typewriter there ready and waiting for me.
CB: Was it really?
KK: And of course the whole concept of education had changed. We had the 1944 Act.
CB: Yeah.
KK: The 1946 Act.
CB: Yes.
KK: The authority was heavily engaged in preparing a development plan which was almost complete before I came back so they gave it to me to finish off. I got put in charge of the school meals transport and the administration of the County Library. And do you know how much retraining and briefing I got? None. You just, in those days you just went back and you got on with the job.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
KK: These days when you’re sick for a fortnight you are retrained. You need to.
CB: Yeah.
KK: You’re so bloody thick you’ve forgotten it all. But we did have, there were these light aircraft over in France we would occasionally take them for a little jaunt. And I always remember I went off one day with Flight lieutenant [Standen] and he said one day, ‘Come on. Let’s go and have a look at Paris.’ So, we went to have a look at Paris in low level. We were in this Auster.
CB: Oh right.
KK: And we found the Eifel Tower and we flew around the top of the Eifel Tower and you virtually put your hand out and touched it. And it was fifty years later before I went to Paris and climbed up the Eifel Tower on the inside.
CB: You were able to wave to where you would have been. Yes.
KK: Where I would have been. Yes. This was a non-flying one. A couple of us went in to Paris on the day that Franklin Roosevelt died. And the Americans whether they were a GI or whether they were an officer were terribly, terribly upset. I mean even some of the GIs were in tears. But my lad said, ‘Right. Ok. We’ll go to The Bal Tabarin,’ which was a quite a classy nightclub. And there was heaps and heaps of Yanks in there of all ranks. And as I said they were very, very upset. But when the floor show came on they were, their tears dried up a little bit because we had a chorus line of twelve very, very nice young ladies with beautiful feathered headdresses and skirts and fishnet stockings and so on but they were topless. If you’ve ever seen a chorus line of twelve topless high kicking your, you tears would have dried too. If it’s all on tape good [laughs]
CB: Well, Ken Killeen, thank you for a most interesting conversation.
[recording paused]
KK: But there we are. And we didn’t start the Aircrew Association on the island until 1987.
CB: Oh really.
KK: Strangely enough the, when I, when the first chap at County Hall in our department who got called up and I moved up to take his place a new boy came in straight from school. Eric Woodhouse. And he followed me in to the Air Force but he didn’t go to Bomber Command and when he came out he joined the ATC and he was ATC commander. And he was a member of the Aircrew Association and through the auspices of the Portsmouth Branch he called and got in touch with old aircrew on the Isle of Wight and said, ‘Right. Come to a meeting to meet the Portsmouth branch with a view to forming an Isle of Wight branch.’
CB: Right.
KK: And that’s what happened.
CB: Right.
KK: And of course as Eric and I were office colleagues what happened? He got proposed as chairman and then he turned around a proposed me as secretary, so I was the first secretary.
CB: Right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Kenneth Killeen
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-07-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKilleenK170703, PKilleenKAL1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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02:09:05 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Ken Kileen was called up and reported to ACRC in London at the beginning of 1942. He commenced flying as a navigator at 12 Air School, Queenstown in South Africa flying in Oxfords and Ansons. On his return to UK in 1943 he joined 83 OTU at Peplow flying in Wellingtons. His first operation was dropping leaflets on a nickel operation over occupied France. Their Wellington was damaged by anti-aircraft fire but the crew returned to base safely. He joined 1651 HCU, and on one occasion attempting to land in a Stirling the aircraft crashed after one of the tyres burst writing the aircraft off. Ken joined 3 LFS at Feltwell and on one of his training flights came into close contact with a Me 410 night fighter. He joined 115 Squadron at Witchford in April 1944 and took part in operations in support of the D Day landings. On one operation they encountered three night fighters. After the war Ken was posted to SHAFE communications squadron at Gatwick flying in Ansons on passenger and freight flghts. His last flight was on 2nd August 1946 and he was demobbed shortly after, returning to his civilian job.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
South Africa
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Norfolk
England--Shropshire
South Africa--Queenstown
Belgium
Belgium--Bruges
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1944-06-30
115 Squadron
1651 HCU
83 OTU
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
forced landing
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Me 410
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
RAF Feltwell
RAF Peplow
RAF Torquay
RAF Witchford
RAF Wratting Common
Stirling
tactical support for Normandy troops
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/939/11298/AMackieGA171222.1.mp3
e9ca13049823098df01cd69c65a59715
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mackie, George
George Alexander Mackie
G A Mackie
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with George Mackie (1920 - 2020, 855966 Royal Air Force) with his log books, diary extract, list of operations, battle order and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 15 and 214 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-12-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Mackie, GA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GM: In that silence, revulsion of what Bomber Command did and a claim for what Bomber Command did, were in that silence, that trivial monument in Green Park is for the benefit of the multi-millionaires that erected it, in [unclear] in Flanders, every name of the dead is inscribed in stone, the only names inscribed in stone at Green Park are the millionaires names, the rest are painted, this cheap, cheap gesture on the part of about half a dozen millionaires, so, if you want to carry on with that knowledge of my opposition to monuments, I’d be
CB: That’s fine. Did you go to the opening of that? Were you invited to it?
GM: Of course not [laughs]. I wouldn’t be seen dead near that monument.
CB: Did they invite you though?
GM: No.
CB: Right.
GM: Very glad they didn’t. I wrote against it. It’s also a hideous piece of architecture. So, let’s talk about the war
CB: OK, we’ll do that, I need to be able to. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 22nd of December 2017. We are in Stamford in Lincolnshire, talking to George Mackie about his experiences of life and the RAF. So, what are your first recollections of life, George?
GM: I can’t remember. I think
CB: You were born in Cupar, in Scotland
GM: Yes, and I was in my teens, was waiting for the war to begin.
CB: Right.
GM: It began and I wanted to fly so I presented myself in Dundee at the recruiting office. On Monday because the war had started on a Sunday but nothing happened for weeks until I went back to Dundee school of art and then I was called down to a place in the Midlands for medical which lasted two days, Warrington and I wasn’t actually called up until June of 1940 and sent to Babbacombe near Torquay for a month or six weeks square bashing which I thoroughly enjoyed, squad of fifty people being drilled,
CB: Yeah
GM: And from there [unclear] Cambridge, St John’s college, lectures on navigation, meteorology and so on, contrast to Babbacombe and from Cambridge again a contrast to Stoke-on-Trent to begin flying on Magisters, very difficult conditions for flying because there was no horizon. A horizon is very necessary for learning to fly and there was none, was just smoke and no one said the absence of horizon is going to be difficult, so we thought we were [unclear] and but I got through. From Stoke-on-Trent to Cranfield which is a very inconspicuous place compared to today and we flew Oxfords and I started liking flying for the first time. I remember engine failure at a thousand feet [unclear] the fuel and diving down to [unclear] the fuel that was good, good stuff, that was exciting. And from Cranfield onto Wellingtons, a place twenty five miles south of Cambridge whose name escaped me, flying Wellingtons, one day a Stirling through across at a thousand feet, they were very silent, Stirlings, compared to other aircraft, they were huge, very impressive and I went straight to the adjutant and said, I want to go to the Stirling squadron, now, further or not, that had any bearing on the final decision I don’t know but the point was I was posted from the Wellingtons to 15 Squadron at Wyton, one of two squadrons with Stirlings and I have almost one thousand five hundred hours flying in Stirlings which I think is higher than anyone else. You have to switch thing off [unclear]
CB: That’s ok.
GM: So, there I was in 15 Squadron during 1941 and what I didn’t know was how appalling the mess was that Bomber Command was in, we was sent off solo, there was no such thing as a bomber stream, we went off fifteen minute intervals trying to find a target in Germany, we were hopeless at navigation, we were, my navigator had a sextant to try and navigate with, can you imagine?
CB: I’ve used it [laughs]
GM: We weren’t hitting targets
CB: Right
GM: And by the beginning of 1942 the retrenchment of Bomber Command and I was posted to a newly formed Heavy Conversion Unit to train pilots on the new four-engined aircraft, the Stirlings were just coming in and mostfully I was at Waterbeach for eighteen months in which time I only did three ops, they were the thousand bomber raids and I didn’t go back on ops until the Autumn of 1943 in 214 Squadron, so my eighteen months in Waterbeach was a wonderful period of learning to fly the Stirling cause until you instruct on an aircraft you don’t know it and I got to know the Stirling intimately, the most peculiar airplane, take-off, particularly take-off, the talk from the four engines plus the fact that the rudder was out of action until the tail was up in the slipstream meant that the take-off had a colossal urge to veer right off the runway, so the first thing you did was to put the stick fully forwards and open the throttles diagonally, now in Mark I Stirlings, the throttles were parallel, topped by large bulbs, large knobs, which my hand could not encompass
CB: Right
GM: So it was quite tricky trying to open the throttled diagonally nor could my legs reach the rudder bar because they were too short so I had to stuff a parachute behind me to reach the rudder bar so that couple with the Stirlings own eccentricities made flying the aircraft rather tricky. That I got to tell [unclear] sort of course, switch off.
CB: The Stirling was a Marmite type airplane, was it? People either loved it or hated it?
GM: What is Marmite?
CB: You either love it or hate it.
GM: Oh, I loved it because I survived in it and it was [unclear] in design, it was made to be, it was supposed to be the [unclear] version of the Sunderland flying boats with a wing span of a hundred and ten feet, in the event the wingspan was cut down to ninety-nine feet to enter peacetime hangars which were a hundred feet wide, of course, most of the maintenance was done outside anyway, day and night, and that made the aircraft most peculiar, a huge undercarriage and the angle of take-off was absurd
CB: Well, you were sitting twenty-eight feet above the ground, weren’t you?
GM: Well, yes.
CB: So that meant the tail was very low in comparison with the
GM: And until the tail was up, the rudder didn’t work
CB: Yeah, that’s interesting
GM: The [unclear] was switched
CB: Yeah. What sort of speed would you have to get to, in order for the tail plane to get up?
GM: Oh, maybe fifty
CB: Right. And then, when you got to V2, what would you be taking off at?
GM: Oh, ninety?
CB: Right
GM: [unclear]
CB: Right, yeah, oh, one [unclear]
GM: Well, a hundred with bombs
CB: Yeah
GM: A hundred and ten, it depends, it depends on the aircraft, they varied quite a bit
CB: Right
GM: And from Stirling to Stirling
CB: Right. As we were talking about the HCU, what condition were the planes in at HCU, Stirlings?
GM: They were all second hand, they were all ex operational, the groundcrews worked twenty four hours a day, we didn’t give them sufficient credit for what they did, we took them for granted, I’m sure you’ll find this a refrain from aircrew, we took them for granted.
CB: And did, what was the reliability like, as they were clapped out?
GM: Oh, various having an engine failure, no, the Hercules engine was extremely good
CB: You mentioned thousand bomber raids, three of those or three ops to [unclear]?
GM: Well the thousand one which has gone down in history
CB: Yeah
GM: That was a [unclear]. I remember standing by the Stirling while the Wellingtons were going out, dozens and dozens and dozens at about a thousand feet climbing. When we took off, I mean, across the North Sea, you could see a long distance away Cologne bombing, a clear night and we got to the target, we were towards the end of the raid, it was an excellent opposition, next to no searchlights, next to no flak and I had a telescope, I remember trying to identify Cologne through this telescope, we finally got the [unclear] bombed, it was an absolutely easy job, operation but militarily of no significance, psychologically yes
CB: We’ll stop for a mo. So, the reason that the Lancaster and the Halifax didn’t have the yawring problem same was because their [unclear] were
GM: Because they had two rudders
CB: Two rudders
GM: Directly in the slipstream
CB: In the slipstream, yeah, whereas yours was part of the fuselage so it was blanked off
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. You mentioned that early on in your ops you flew as second pilot, what was the
GM: Everyone did
CB: Right
GM: Was standard until in 1942 as part of the re-organisation of the Bomber Command was a man called Peirse, was before Harris,
CB: Right
GM: a disaster, a disaster of a man, I can’t tell you how badly organised Bomber Command was in 1941
CB: So how it operate there then?
GM: Where?
CB: In 1941, how was it operating on operations?
GM: Well,
CB: They didn’t use bomber streams, so what did they do?
GM: Well, we went off at endurance, I should write this down
CB: You should, yeah. You’re going to get this back as a written testament anyway
GM: Mercifully Harris took over and he at least organised things, although he finished up there being a quite psychopathic about bombing German cities, that was, you know, in terms of military advantage it was a crazy, compared to what the Americans were doing
CB: So, with Peirse, can I go just back to Peirse? With, you took off at intervals and
GM: Very few of us, I mean, a maximum effort by Stirlings squadron in 1941 would be say half a dozen aircraft?
CB: Out of
GM: Half a dozen
CB: Out of how many in the squadron?
GM: Well, maybe ten and four only on serviceable
CB: Right
GM: I mean, compared to late, the late war, two Lancaster squadron were maybe forty, fifty aircraft
CB: Yeah
GM: That was a form of the fulfilment of Bomber Command
CB: Yeah, a Lancaster squadron would typically have at least twenty, wouldn’t it?
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. But in your day, with the Stirlings, much less
GM: The Stirlings was electrical and it was a nightmare to keep serviceable
CB: Eh?
GM: Everything was electrical and nothing but short, short brothers
CB: Short brothers and short circuits. What was the most common reason for them going U.S.?
GM: I don’t know. We took, I took no interest, I just put the thing U.S. and that was [unclear]
CB: So, early in the war, you were still, you were using flight engineers on the aircraft.
GM: Oh yes
CB: And they were busy dealing with
GM: Oh chiefly petrol, tanks, we had fourteen tanks so they kept on manoeuvring the petrol, two tanks for take-off and then after [unclear] minutes changed the tanks and also I believe the flight engineer held the throttles and things like that, never in my time
CB: Right
GM: I did it all, get airborne, get the throttles fully open, undercarriage up, up,
CB: Electrical undercarriage as well, not hydraulic
GM: Seems as they were [unclear] retract
CB: Yeah
GM: If it retracted. If it didn’t retract, it had to be done by hand, it took about fifteen minutes, yeah
CB: Who would do the winding?
GM: Oh, anybody, not the pilot
CB: Right. So, initially, your first fifteen ops, you said were as second pilot, then you became the captain after that
GM: I did two as a captain and then I was posted off ops, as were quite a few of us
CB: Yeah
GM: To become instructors
CB: Right
GM: At the newly formed Heavy Conversion Unit and as I said, I was there for eighteen months
CB: Yes
GM: Before going back on ops and when I did go back on ops, I knew the Stirling aircraft, down to flying it, I mean, intimately, and it increased my chances of surviving my second tour of ops
CB: Yeah
GM: And in 214 Squadron I had the great good fortune to start flying fortresses in a hundred group
CB: Yeah
GM: Radar, anti-radar [unclear], we accompanied the bombers, carrying no bombs and if I were a German night fighter pilot and he’s a Stirling, a fortress full of electronics, and here the Lancaster full of bombs, and go for the Lancaster, so we had very few fatalities on 214 Squadron with Fortresses
CB: Because they knew they didn’t carry a bomb load
GM: There’s a piece of paper with the rotors
CB: Yeah. Here we are. So, we’ve got a piece of paper with your ops on and then
GM: There’s the Fortress losses
CB: Yeah
GM: There’s the Stirling losses
CB: Right, yeah. So how different was the Fortress to fly?
GM: The Fortress was child’s play, the perfect aircraft, from mass production for mass produced pilots, the Stirling was the worst possible aircraft for mass produced pilots, it was like something unique, the Fortress, you pushed the throttles open, the throttles were perfectly attuned to your hand and it just took off like a dream and landed like a dream, child’s play, perfect for formation flying, stable, very stable, the Stirling wasn’t, the Stirling was agile, frisky,
CB: Well, the Fortress was designed in the concept of formation box flying
GM: It was designed for formation flying
CB: Yeah
GM: And it was perfect for formation flying
CB: Yeah
GM: It didn’t want to do anything but [unclear] flying
CB: And on the Fortress, the B-17, did you fly with a co-pilot there as well?
GM: Occasionally
CB: But not normally
GM: [unclear] second pilot just for one or two trips, for experience, the idea of doing fifteen as a second pilot was out by 1942
CB: Yeah. Because of the HCU
GM: Was useless
CB: Yeah. The HCU system dealt with that, HCU
GM: Yeah
CB: So when people joined the Stirlings, they, you said they were difficult to take-off, was there a high accident rate associated with that?
GM: Hundreds.
CB: Which did it, it bent the aeroplane but did it, were there fatalities linked to that or just?
GM: No, just crashed, swing and take-off
CB: What was the best thing about the Stirling?
GM: Agility, agile, remarkable, remarkable manoeuvrability, unbelievable for an aircraft that size. I, mastered a stall turn, which is going up like this, can you imagine a large four-engine aircraft at this angle? And kicking the rudder bar stalled, I got quite a reputation for it at Waterbeach.
CB: Was this proving a point or because it was exciting?
GM: Just showing what the Stirling could do, stall turn, quite remarkable
CB: So, a steep climb and then kick the rudder
GM: Yeah. It had a very bad reputation, didn’t carry more than two thousand pounds weight of bombs, I mean, because of the bomb containers
CB: The size of the them
GM: What the Lancaster does was quite stupefying, the weight [unclear]
CB: Yes
GM: Stupefying, nothing in the world like it
CB: Yeah
GM: At the time
CB: Yeah
GM: I mean, Britain did lead the war [unclear], not like today leaving Europe
CB: What was the crew’s reaction to the, your crew in 15 Squadron, how well did they work together?
GM: They were [unclear], various of camaraderie
CB: What were they frightened of mainly?
GM: Death
CB: But the aircraft or
GM: Death,
CB: Or just
GM: Death,
CB: The raid?
GM: I mean, the whole squadron was infected by fear
CB: Was it?
GM: Oh, I think so. Cause when you are not doing anything positive
CB: Yeah
GM: Just being exposed
CB: Cause this is part of, is it, what you were talking about earlier, the disorganisation of Bomber Command meant that it worked in a very inefficient way
GM: [unclear] If you look at the dates of ops
CB: Yeah
GM: Quite absurd, the Stirlings just in service. July in 1941 the 6th and the 7th, then the 12th and the 23rd, 25th and then a month before August 25, then between August 25 and September 19th, October the 12th, the 24th, why weren’t Stirlings used more often? Yes, it’s frightful indictment
CB: What was your conclusion about why they were not used more often?
GM: Oh, we didn’t conclude anything, we didn’t even know the morale was bad, how do you know that morale was bad at the time? You don’t know
CB: Right
GM: You think, this was my first operational squadron
CB: Yes
GM: For all I knew this was normal
CB: Right
GM: In that respect, I know that morale was bad
CB: So, can you talk me through a raid, starting with the briefing? How would this evolve over the course of the night?
GM: Well, briefing didn’t change, it got more complicated
CB: So the briefing was everybody together in the ops room to hear the target and the route, is that right?
GM: Yeah. Well, that didn’t change, only towards the end of the war there were half a dozen streams instead of one, well, in fact, there were no streams to begin with, just [unclear] the target and the navigator worked it out how to get there
CB: So in the ops room, in the briefing room you would be told what the target was and the route.
GM: Oh yes.
CB: Was the route, the navigator had to work it out but was the route straight or was it?
GM: I think it was, I think it was [unclear] the navigator to work out how to get there
CB: Oh, right.
GM: Which is part of the amateurness of the role
CB: Yeah. So, as the war developed then, none of the raids would have a direct route to the target. So in your day initially, what was the state then?
GM: Well, I suppose, I suppose so. I suppose we knew where the concentration of searchlights were, but I don’t know. Later on in the war, you not only had different streams of bombers but you had dummy streams which 214 Squadron did, we set off on spoofs, half a dozen Fortresses charring out Window
CB: Right. Yeah
GM: To simulate five hundred bombers, that was quite important, quite a safe job too
CB: It was safe because the Window secured the view of your aircraft, did it?
GM: Well, the night fighters were after these real streams
CB: Right
GM: And we didn’t go far into Germany, we just went across Holland and then turned back home. 214 Squadron was so lucky, so fortunate with its Fortresses, that was a stroke of gigantic luck being posted to 214 Squadron
CB: So, the crew is the same, was it? As the one [unclear] flown in
GM: The one [unclear] to 214 Squadron
CB: Pardon?
GM: We were a mixed lot, New Zealand, Peruvian. My flight engineer was called Pedro Honeyman. Obviously of Scottish descent. Didn’t keep up with any of them. We had extremely good adjutant to 214 Squadron called George Wright, what George had done before the war I do not know, but he loved being adjutant to a bomber squadron, the aircrew, he loved the aircrew and they really good for us, so before my ops came to an end, I said to George, when I finish, I want to go on Transport Command. [unclear] Before I got a posting to Transport Command where I finished the war. And that was before I was sent to India and North Africa. It’s interesting. George Wright was seen after the war in 1951. My wife-to-be and I were on our way to Paris and we went into the 1951 exhibition on the South Bank and who was selling tickets? George Wright. [unclear] come down for you. I went back to art school
CB: When were you demobbed? When you were demobbed?
GM: Yeah
CB: In 1946.
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. How long were you at art school?
GM: I did my fourth year at Edinburgh College of Arts, post diploma fifth year, then a year of travelling scholarship was six years
CB: How did you finance yourself in those days?
GM: Oh, paid for, paid for. People don’t remember but we were privileged, we got no fees at university, a grant, I had a pension, three pounds, ten schillings a week, [unclear] for ten schillings a week, so I had three quid to spend, were privileged
CB: You received an RAF pension because
GM: No
CB: Was it?
GM: I suppose it was
CB: Yes, because you started the war when it started, when, at the beginning of the war
GM: Yeah, I suppose it was RAF
CB: So, in that context, you weren’t VR, were you? You were RAF
GM: I was RAF VR
CB: Oh, you were VR
GM: Yeah
CB: Right
GM: I’ve got the four-volume history of Bomber Command
CB: Yeah
GM: Which you really ought to know
CB: I’ll just stop there for a mo. Yes. The History of Bomber Command
GM: Harris, he is in this book
CB: Did he?
GM: Oh yes
CB: Noble Frankland, and who is the other chap?
GM: Sir Charles Webster
CB: Yes
GM: They’re both historians. Yes, you promised me your book, your [unclear] for it
CB: I shall put, I shall get hold of it, cause these are really important and this links together with your testimony
GM: You [unclear] and your job, you must have it
CB: I do, yes, need it. They’ve got it at Lincoln.
GM: Have they?
CB: Yeah
GM: It’ll be in the university library
CB: Yes
GM: Or it should be
CB: Yeah. Well, we’ll check actually as you come to ask. Can I just go back
GM: I was once in publishing so I can get things at cost
CB: Ah, right. Can I go back to your comments about 15 Squadron? You said that the crew effectively lived in fear all the time, the fear of being shot down or the fear of the aircraft not performing?
GM: No, the fear of not coming back.
CB: Right.
GM: I think that was general, the morale was low
CB: Yes
GM: When morale is low, you lose confidence
CB: Yes. And what was the RAF doing about it in your perspective?
GM: Nothing
CB: Right
GM: Nothing
CB: And what was the squadron commander doing to get together?
GM: Nothing
CB: Right
GM: Nor the Wing Commander. Everyone was tainted
CB: Yeah
GM: In my recollection. The crew I trained with, what’s the name of that place?
CB: At Wyton, oh, at Bassingbourn
GM: Bassingbourn
CB: Yes. On the Wellingtons
GM: Two pilots, flight engineer, navigator and bomb, gunners, I trained the guy called Metaxi, M-E, M-A
CB: Yeah
GM: So, when we got to Wyton a line was drawn under MA and I went as second pilot to an established crew,
CB: On Stirlings
GM: Metaxi crew went to a newly promoted captain, he had no training with the new captain, they disappeared on their first op, the first op, no training, Pierce, group captain wing commander, why? Of course they went down on their first op, they didn’t know each other. That was my introduction to operational flying. Nobody mentioned it.
CB: No. And in the ops in those days, you went off as individual crews, you said, rather than in any kind of orderly fashion. What was the process of finding the target?
GM: Looking at the ground [laughs].
CB: In the dark?
GM: What you could see.
CB: At what height were you flying in the Stirling?
GM: As high as you could go. Which was sixteen, seventeen
CB: On a god day
GM: Right down to twenty. Oh, what a business.
CB: And how did you, when you returned, you were debriefed by the intelligence officer, were you?
GM: Yes, yes.
CB: And what would you have to tell him?
GM: [unclear] we always thought we bombed the target of course [unclear] the first target I properly identified was Cologne, the thousand bomber raid,
CB: And at that stage you were at the HCU. At that stage you were at the HCU, weren’t you? For the thousand bomber raid
GM: Yes, yes, yes
CB: Yeah
GM: Little diversion from training
CB: Yes
GM: The following day you, circuits and landings, circuits and landings again, I don’t know how many landings I did in the Stirling, it must be ten to hundreds
CB: How did you feel about the student pilot flying it?
GM: Oh, they all arrived in a state of great anxiety, the Stirling had a very bad reputation and so the first thing you did was to show them what it was in the air and then the New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans, all nationalities, the most democratic outfit Bomber Command became, I wouldn’t have missed it
CB: What was the most exciting experience you had on operations or in the HCU?
GM: Well, the most dangerous experience I had was five hours in icing cloud trying to get to Hamburg in which 1651 Unit lost four out of nine aircraft in one night through weather and that was touch and go in cumulus cloud.
CB: So the icing cloud should never have been entered but how was it
GM: We should never have set off
CB: Exactly
GM: Again it was a cock-up and no one of course was never held responsible but to lose four out of nine is quite a shock. But the following day, take off and landings, take off and landings
CB: So that goes back to the point about debriefing, there was a met man who did part of the briefing, was there?
GM: That, the North Sea was [unclear] of clouds and of course we dropped the odd bomb to try and get more height, couldn’t and that was just flying skill to survive that night and one of the survivors was Frazer Barron, to finish that was nineteen ops, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar, he lost his life later on of course, he was smaller than me, so how he could get the rudder bar I don’t know. Frazer Barron, one of the so-called Barron
CB: Barn Brothers
GM: Barnel Barnes [unclear]
CB: So, when the crew went back to 15 Squadron, you talked about the low morale, in the off-duty times what happened, what did people do? Cause you are all NCOs in the aircraft, are you? At that stage
GM: We did nothing. After time boring, there was no overall intelligence trying to further our training as bomber aircrew, it’s just, it was, the whole thing was inept. You know, we were losing the war like mad
CB: And what were the senior officers doing?
GM: I never saw them, I was in the sergeant’s mess. I mean, we arrived at Wyton by train, a bus from the station to the airfield, no welcome, put into such and such a fight, didn’t meet the flight commander, no one would tell you hello, this is 15 Squadron, this is what we do, we just arrived, oh, dear, oh dear, that was bad, it was shocking [unclear]
CB: Wyton was an expansion period airfield, so what was the accommodation like?
GM: Nissen hut. We took off from Alconbury, Wyton had no runways, so we flew the aircraft at Alconbury where it was bombed up, and then we went back to [unclear] and got briefly briefed at Wyton and then bus to the station light. I remember the bus going through Huntingdon, people going about their business, going into pubs and so on, where am I going?
CB: Yeah
GM: 21 squadron was quite different cause the war had been going on for years by that time, September 1943, Stirlings would have been taken off German targets, again the luck I had, being posted to a Stirling squadron cause they were being withdrawn and then we heard this extraordinary rumour going on [unclear] and the rumour proved to be true till, we got an American pilot with half a dozen landings and off we went solo, captain of a Fortress, throat microphone, all up to date
CB: Yes
GM: Electric flying suit, all up to date, American
CB: The whole crew had the electric flying suit, did they?
GM: I don’t know about the crew, I took the crew for granted. I hadn’t a warrant officer, my navigator was a flying officer and that was my two fingers up to the system, you see and it didn’t last long, I was a commissioned officer within weeks
CB: We’ll stop now. How often did you get hit?
GM: Once, oh, well, the aircraft got hit more than once of course
CB: Did it?
GM: I got hit personally once, over Leverkusen
CB: Oh.
GM: To an [unclear] squadron to Leverkusen to [unclear] as a souvenir, one of the aircraft came home with shrapnel quite often
CB: So what was the wound that you experienced?
GM: It was?
CB: What wound did you get?
GM: I didn’t get wounded, didn’t even draw blood. Spent shrapnel upper left arm. Colossal braw. If I hadn’t been strapped in, I’d be off my seat.
CB: Was the explosion in the aircraft or just outside?
GM: No, the shrapnel, piece of shrapnel. Flak
CB: Did that hit you hard?
GM: Flak I suppose.
CB: Yeah
GM: Didn’t even draw blood. The arm was swollen of course
CB: Yeah
GM: And that was nothing
CB: What about other members of the crew, did they get?
GM: Nothing
CB: Nobody
GM: No. A nasty surprise flying along in the black, suddenly shrapnel [unclear], flak and this enormous bash which as I say, would have got me out of my seat but for being strapped in
CB: Amazing. This was in the Fortress, was it? Or in the Stirling?
GM: Probably Fortress.
CB: There was a bigger crew in the Fortress, so?
GM: Yes.
CB: That was more gunners.
GM: The Fortress crew
CB: Right
GM: [unclear]
CB: Have a look at that. So, with the Fortress, you, the Americans flew with two pilots but you flew with one pilot in the Fortress in the RAF fashion
GM: Yes, yes. They flew by day, of course
CB: Yes
GM: What the Americans did was remarkable I mean, seeing them go down, we saw them going down in darkness
CB: Yeah. Did you get any planes exploding next to you?
GM: There were things, in Bomber Command we believed in a thing called Scarecrows
CB: Ah, yes
GM: Have you heard this word?
CB: Yes
GM: But there were no such things, they were actual aircraft and we kidded ourselves, another Scarecrow and some could be very close
CB: So, the Scarecrow notionally was an enormous shell when actually it was a German fighter firing upwards with Schrage Musik
GM: [unclear] bomber going down in flames
CB: Yeah
GM: But mercifully we didn’t know. I was never attacked by a night fighter and that may be part of the fact that wherever over dangerous territory I was endlessly weaving the aircraft, endless, to give the rear gunner [unclear] a vision of the area, a vision
CB: You did that on both aircraft
GM: Oh yes
CB: Yeah
GM: Oh yes
CB: Same technique
GM: Endless, gentle weave
CB: And how many reports of air sickness did you get from the crew?
GM: Oh, never. Weaving, that’s nothing, you don’t even know you’re doing it, didn’t know I was doing it, but it’s so far more.
CB: Yeah
GM: I’ve heard a Lancaster sitting a straight and level being shot at, not least by a member of who, by ex-member of my crew, he was shot down later on and we were attacked and the pilot froze, froze, that’s why we were shot down
CB: Froze over the target or [unclear]?
GM: Night fighter attacked, there was no evasive action team
CB: I see, right. But you were trained in the corkscrew?
GM: Oh yes
CB: And could you do the corkscrew with the Fortress or not?
GM: Yes, nothing like [unclear] nothing like this
CB: A big aeroplane
GM: Nothing like this, cleverly, let me have that logbook, thanks,
US: That’s the last, this is the first one. Is this the one you want?
CB: No, he’s just checking
US: Do you want to have a look at it now?
GM: Hey?
US: Do you want to have a look inside it?
CB: I’ll just stop there a minute.
US: [unclear] Air Force for you.
GM: We flew an aircraft from East Anglia to Belfast
US: Right.
GM: You get a cask of Guinness for a party. When you think of the cost of that pint of Guinness
US: [unclear]
CB: Amazing. But you did need that training experience, didn’t you? Was this from the HCU or the squadron?
GM: From the squadron
CB: Yeah
GM: The things were so relaxed. I had the memory of the friend of my father’s came down from Scotland, Ed [unclear], wanted to go up in a Stirling so I just said, an aircraft needing a flight test such and such took off in fifteen minutes
CB: What was the reaction of your family to your flying as a pilot in Bomber Command?
GM: My father and I didn’t communicate, ever.
CB: And you mother’s reaction wouldn’t be cause she
GM: Stepmother
CB: Stepmother, I meant
GM: Stepmother, no communication
CB: Right, ok. Any other members of the family you spoke to? Just stopping there again. Because your father had been in the trenches.
GM: Yeah, I mean Bomber Command is admired beyond reason, the worst that could happen was five minutes in [unclear] alive going down, think of the trenches, think of my father survived after three years in the trenches compared to what I had, Bomber Command was lucky. We lived well
CB: Yeah
GM: You know, it’s over exalted but easy, easier, the troops after the invasion going up through Holland far, far worse than Bomber Command was. I didn’t see a dead body. My father not only saw dead bodies, he saw the remains all around for years, no wonder he didn’t speak about it. Bomber Command too much talk saving your presence. No, it wasn’t all that difficult, it wasn’t.
CB: Now, when you went to 214, you had a completely different crew there,
GM: Yeah
CB: Because you’d come from the HCU
GM: I inherited a crew
CB: Oh, did you? Right, so how well did they gel together?
GM: After
US: You know, I can’t remember
CB: Anyway, professionally as a crew
GM: There was a romantic tosh spoken about Bomber Command crews how they gelled, how they drank together, how they did this together, how they did that, I suspect in many cases that just wasn’t true, wasn’t true in my case
CB: But it also varied, it would appear depending on whether it was an entirely NCO crew or a mixed commissioned NCO crew, in terms of them socialising.
GM: No, in my experience, socialising went on between commissioned and non-commissioned, there was no sense of division. No, no, Bomber Command was very democratic, a great mixture of people, no, no, there was no bullshit. No, no, none. I remember one parade, I can’t remember where, there was no discipline, in my experience, there was self
CB: Self-regulation
GM: Self-engendered discipline, there was no bullshit, no, none. You did your job in the air, you were left alone. Me, when I put that Tiger Moth on the [unclear], I didn’t even get a rap on [unclear]
CB: So, when was that? When were you
GM: Waterbeach
CB: Right. So, what happened there, you borrowed it, did you?
GM: I was in the mess, I had this aircraft flying over and landing and [unclear] and I went down to the flight centre, it was the wing commander giving ATC cadets a touch of flying experience and he saw me and he said, hey, Mackie, you take over. Well, I’d never flown a Tiger Moth and I took over. I took off with the first cadet, flew around and landed after a, a second cadet started getting too cocky, anyway, that’s how I got to [unclear]. It was a lovely summer’s evening and I was quite excited to land, there was earth, [unclear], trees and this great big wide river, flat, not a ripple on its surface, inviting, irresistible, I did a perfect landing, tail down
CB: Yeah. Who was in the back?
GM: I was on the front. I think, we passed over the back, we got to the surface and he was saying, do you mind, look at my dress to dance tomorrow! And I said, you shut up! So and so, I got worries of my own now, the wing commander’s aeroplane
CB: So, were you actually practising an emergency landing or did you feel that you
GM: No, I got in a high-speed stall
CB: So, what were you doing in your manoeuvre at the time?
GM: [unclear] trees
CB: So you were really low, you were going round the trees
GM: Breaking the law and all sorts of things
CB: That’s right
GM: But I didn’t know you had to increase the throttles, [unclear] control, high fifteen tons, you’re supposed to increase the engine revs
CB: Right. In the Tiger Moth
GM: Cocky
CB: But you would have had to do it in the Magister anyway
GM: I don’t remember doing high speeds, [unclear] the Magister
CB: No? So what was the attraction in the river?
GM: The flatness
US: Yeah
CB: But the people, what about the people in the river?
GM: They [unclear] spectacle
CB: So you were busy just
GM: You’re alright? You’re alright? I said, yes, I’m alright, [unclear] job trying to get the parachute on board the, onto dry land, the weight of it [unclear] water
CB: And they helped you pull the plane into the side as well?
GM: No, the plane was just right in the middle of the river, I was completely submerged
CB: And what was the result of this then?
GM: Not, no, nothing happened. I was a confident Stirling pilot, that was the important thing
CB: Right
GM: This, the Tiger Moth just an aberration
CB: So the wing commander said
GM: Nothing. He wasn’t even crossed
CB: And your logbook said
GM: [unclear] somewhere, he was a very good man, he was the best wing commander I ever had, I had some poor wing commanders, he was particularly good, he was called Menaul and he finished up in charge of atomic bombing tests in the South Pacific just after the war and he lived quite near to where my elder daughter lives and she kept on saying, why don’t you look him up? And I kept on saying, no, no, and I wish I had. M-E-N-A-U-L, he’s a good man. I had the worst commander in 214 Squadron called McGlinn M-C-G-L-I-N-N, he didn’t take to me, part because I was a warrant officer I think and froze the normal distances of promotion and once the aircrew were altogether for a talk by him and he suddenly, said, Mackie, what does that mean? And he pronounced a long German word, you know, a multi syllable, multi [unclear] and I said, I don’t know, Sir, and I hope I never do, the squadron erupted. This is still a German prisoner of war camp name, I said what? Anyway, that was my come up and stand up to the wing commander. No, he wasn’t a good type.
CB: So, you reached warrant officer and then when you went to the HCU, you were still a warrant officer, were you?
GM: I became warrant officer at Waterbeach, yes
CB: At the HCU
GM: Not automatic [unclear], sergeant, flight sergeant, warrant officer,
CB: Yeah
GM: A good rank, taken miles
CB: Absolutely
GM: Have you heard that expression?
CB: Yeah
GM: Doesn’t exist [unclear] expression
CB: No. And your commissioning took place when you joined two, joined at 214?
GM: Having more than doubled the hours than any other pilot on the squadron then and the [unclear] ranking, it was this to the system, it was meant to be, I’d finished the war as [unclear] there was anything left [unclear] but they made me take commission
CB: Was McGlinn, this, this CO, was he part of
GM: The station commander intervened
CB: Ah!
GM: He saw, he told me, you’re taking commission, Mackie, which I knew was inevitable and [unclear] didn’t have to ask for it
CB: So what was the process that you went through for that?
GM: Nothing. A new uniform and that was it
CB: But they took you off somewhere for a briefing, did they? Or selection?
GM: I got five minutes
CB: Ah, right
GNM: At Mildenhall
CB: What did they have, a board of assessors?
GM: No, no, just one man, [unclear] after all be all the way as Mildenhall and all the way back for this formality, out of the comedy, tragicomedy
CB: So there you had the opportunity to move into the officer’s mess
GM: I had to and the airfield we shared with an American squadron and the first formal dinner evening took place, when I say formal, peacetime thing, towards the end of the war [unclear], towards the end of the German ascendancy and being the most junior officer, I had to give the royal toast and the toast to his, the president of the United States of America, not a single ring of having lost my [unclear] morale. No, there is one thing I want to emphasize, it was easy
CB: An easy war for you
GM: Easy war, an easy war for most of the crew, if you got shot down, five minutes. I mean, think about it, that’s quite a good way to go, five minutes.
CB: Did you come across Guinea pigs, who’d been burned?
GM: Yeah
CB: And how did they take to flying after being Guinea pigs?
GM: Well, I don’t know, I mean, well actually, I knew them, I met them, I saw them, never knew them personally
CB: Right
GM: But that was extreme. If you got killed, you got killed, in a burning aircraft, you know, you are going down. You see, in 15 Squadron, going out seven, half a dozen aircraft, one missing, that’s quite a lot of proportion, week after week, one again, one again, one again, one again.
US: It is here, Tiger Moth [laughs]
GM: Of course, nobody knew at the beginning of the war. Bomber Command did no night flying in peacetime
CB: No. Were your original ops with 15 Squadron in daylight or were they always at night?
GM: There were two daylight ops on Northern France with Spitfires and Hurricanes, protection. That was so-called circuses, supposed to engender combat between our fighters and their fighters, they never materialised, it’s a waste of time
CB: And how did you feel like flying in daylight bombing on a, in a Stirling?
GM: Well, glad that I missed it. By that time the RAF had learned the sense of not flying by day over Germany
CB: No
GM: To begin with, we thought we could do it with impunity, flying in formations of Wellingtons or, what’s the other aircraft?
CB: Or in Blenheims
GM: Blenheims. 50 percent loss, time after time, sheer incompetence, wasted for nothing, peacetime air force, but by [unclear] what a transformation in 1944, target could be identified and destroyed, terrifying, pinpointed by Mosquitoes, TIs, target indicators, and the [unclear] watching, watching, doing nothing
CB: So in your two and four, flying your B-17 Fortresses, what was the activity going on in your aircraft?
GM: I don’t know, I didn’t know, yeah, I took no interest
CB: What was it supposed to be doing?
GM: Jamming control, jamming communication between ground control and German night fighters, that was one thing, we carried a German speaking wireless op and in a minute he got on to this German night fighter frequency, he jammed it, I believe but there were other, we carried a [unclear] radar which is one reason why operational flying was so infrequent, it was the [unclear] in the world and constantly tinkering new this, new that, but it was so complex, I wasn’t interested. I was interested in one thing, survival.
CB: And these German speaking operators, did they tend to be of foreign origin or were they?
GM: They were German.
CB: On the aircraft?
GM: Yes. But I, when I looked back I missed, actually I should have been more interested in what they were and how they came to be aircrew in the RAF, they were perfect German speakers, I believe. Pedro Honeyman, how did he come to England from Peru? And no one charged him. Cause Honeyman is a Scottish name
CB: He was a signaller, was he? He was a signaller.
GM: He was my flight engineer
CB: Oh, flight engineer.
GM: We all smoked of course, like chimneys
CB: In the aircraft?
GM: Coming back, yes, once you’re over water, down to a thousand feet, open the window, switch off the oxygen, first cigarette, oh, the bliss, the bliss of that first cigarette
CB: So, for non-smokers, explain please what, why it was such an important thing
GM: Well, salvation,
US: You’re a non-smoker.
GM: You were over the North Sea, you’re at two thousand feet, in half an hour you can see the flashing beacons, you’re safe, you survived, you’re off the scaffold, that was why, and the nicotine in the blood stream. Oh, I was a confirmed smoker. I regret having, had to give it up, but I wish I hadn’t. My father smoked forty a day until his late eighties when he died. He had the right answer. Were you an ex-smoker?
CB: No.
GM: You’re both non-smokers?
US: I smoke
GM: What’s that? Pack?
US: Rolling.
GM: You’re rolling [unclear]. Oh yes, so did I. I used to have brown paper, cigarette papers, I’ve [unclear]
CB: What made you start smoking? Did you start because of the flying?
GM: No, before the war I started.
CB: Right. And what made you give up?
GM: Oh, slow asphyxiation. [unclear] for five before the war, the day’s ration. [sighs] Well, Chris
CB: So you, that’s really good. We’ll stop for a bit.
GM: Yeah. Fifty percent of Bomber Command aircrew died for nothing. There’s no way of proving it but that’s my feeling.
CB: Do you mean particularly in the early days, do you mean? Because it was so disorganised
GM: Yes, but it extended into the, towards the end of the war, how many aircrew did damage to Germany? One [unclear]. I’d have had been killed, the damage I had affected on Germany was minimal, minimal, at what expense?
CB: Well, in your two and four days with the Fortresses, you weren’t carrying any munitions, so any bombs.
GM: Were not very successful,
CB: Oh
GM: It was a colossal enterprise involving fighter squadrons, Halifaxes, Fortresses, but it never did enough damage, I suppose was expected. I mean the hundred fighter squadron used to go out at night and circle German airfields
CB: The Mosquitoes, the Mosquitoes did
GM: Yes
CB: Yes
US: Interesting
CB: Interdictors
GM: And they weren’t successful, I believe. And then Transport Command, when I think about the expense, six thousand feet all the way to Germany, straight to India, four days, bed and breakfast, North Africa, bed and breakfast, Palestine, bed and breakfast, Iraq, Karachi.
CB: And what were you flying in Transport Command?
GM: Stirlings, the Mark V, an extra ten miles an hour
CB: And you wouldn’t want to get there too quickly, with all that nice hospitality on the way, did you?
GM: Oh, just a routine bed and breakfast, you know.
CB: What could the Mark V Stirling carry? What could the Mark V Stirling carry?
GM: Sixteen passengers or so much freight, a lot of postal freight, you know, letters [unclear] was abroad
CB: So, did you enjoy that, overall?
GM: Oh yes
CB: How did you come to be posted to Transport Command after 214?
GM: I’ve told you, George Wright
CB: Yes, but in the mechanism of the system, it just automatically
GM: Well, George Wright got me posted to Transport Command
CB: Yeah, as the adjutant
GM: That was it
CB: Yeah. There’d be a less smaller crew there cause you didn’t need gunners, so what did you have?
GM: Oh, navigator and flight engineer
CB: And that was it. No signaller?
GM: Wireless op, possible, you see they were going a-begging, they weren’t needed
CB: No
GM: [unclear]
CB: How did you meet your wife and when?
GM: When did I meet her?
CB: Yes
GM: I don’t know the exact date although I can recount it in detail but I shan’t
CB: [laughs]
GM: My wedding was in [unclear], 1952 in the registry office in Scarborough, cost five quid, got back to Edinburgh that same day, that was the beginning of our marriage
CB: Where did you meet her in the first place?
GM: Edinburgh College of Arts
CB: Edinburgh College of Arts, right. After the war, in other words.
GM: Oh yes, oh yes,
CB: Yeah
GM: ’48 or ’49, the best thing I ever did.
CB: And how many children have you got? How many children do you have?
GM: Two daughters.
CB: Right. Local?
GM: Two daughters, two granddaughters, two great granddaughters. I don’t want any competition [laughs]. Let the name Mackie die
CB: And no brothers or sisters of yours? You have no brother or sister yourself?
GM: Well, no, my mother died after my birth
CB: Cause you were the first child, right
GM: And my stepmother had no children
CB: We’ll stop there. Post-war, what career did you follow?
GM: Well, I taught in a college of art for some years, I free-lanced, I became royal designer for industry, designing books for Edinburgh University Press, I am a member of the Royal Scottish Society of Painters and Water Colour, and now, I don’t know, that’s about it.
CB: So, how did you get down here, in Stamford?
GM: Retirement. Driving from London to Aberdeen, I took the wrong turn at Millhill roundabout, six bloody [unclear], following the A25, and then the A1, and Aberdeen seemed a long way away, roundabout, roundabout, roundabout. I came to a sign saying, Stamford, one mile and so help me. I turned off. [unclear] this is a wartime thing, I don’t know, a monumental thing to do, because it changed my life. The entry into Stamford from the south is the finest entrance to any town that I know.
CB: Yeah, past Burghley.
GM: It’s Extraordinary
CB: Yeah
GM: The George Hotel. So I kept on coming back and found a slum, I’ll let you see what it was like
CB: When is this, 1980?
GM: Yes
CB: Ah, right. It had just been neglected
GM: Completely
CB: Yeah
US: Of course, it’s a lovely building
CB: And you said it was affected by a fire behind it
GM: Oh, that was later on
CB: Ah
GM: When I saw it, I saw [unclear]. The fact is I made it. In Aberdeen I had a wonderful house with twenty, how many years? Twenty-four years there. Wonderful, wonderful. When it came to selling, it was valued forty eight. I said, nonsense, it’s worth seventy. I got in a week [laughs]. Forty-eight to seventy in 1980. And a bloody Scotch lawyer charges a thousand pounds for the convenience for half an hour’s work.
CB: That was a bit much, wasn’t it?
US: Yeah
GM: I had an interviewer here and told him what I thought, he said, I’ve never been spoken like this before, I said, well, it’s high time.
CB: Quite right.
GM: Bugger
CB: Yes
GM: A thousand pounds, in 1980
CB: That was a hell of a lot of money
GM: I mean, I sold it, I did the ad, I did the interviewing, I said, excessive, five hundred, even that, [unclear] enough, that’s a long time ago but still rankles
CB: Yeah
GM: Scotch avarice
CB: Quite right. But you never got the
GM: Anyway, then I could buy this and do tens of thousands of pounds on the house, new electricity, new walling, new this, new that, new [unclear], and it’s been a wonderful house for the family and [unclear] buggered up all went downhill
CB: When your wife became ill
GM: The worst possible conclusion. God, if he exists, is a master sadist. Oh, gentlemen, can I offer you anything now?
CB: I haven’t had anybody else criticize Bomber Command
GM: You haven’t?
CB: No. But that partly for the reason perhaps that you mentioned earlier which is that you were there right at the beginning, when Bomber Command was in a powerless state, and the leadership clearly, from what you said, was lacking severely. The bit I forgot to ask you about because it links quite well with the early comments you made about lack of morale, because this comes out of it in a way, what about LMF?
GM: Oh dear, LMF, how these initials frightened us. We didn’t quite know what it was all about, very effective
CB: Was it?
GM: Oh very, frightening words, frightening initials, and partially frightening because we didn’t quite know what it was. I only came across one [unclear], a commissioned officer, commissioned RAR cause he trained with me this man, the majority of us became sergeants, he became a pilot officer, [unclear] in a flying boat [unclear] blew a tool off and he had a history of early retirements
CB: A pilot?
GM: Pilot
CB: Yeah
GM: I never saw him again.
CB: Do you know where they sent him?
GM: He just vanished. But that was LMF. Poor man, is he still alive? The memory will be constant, he should have died.
CB: Yeah
GM: And of course, LMF was designed to make sure you died rather than anything else
US: That was on the doorbell
GM: Ah, thank you.
CB: What would you say it did to the, what effect did it have on the crew?
GM: Made them bloody sad, they wouldn’t be LMF. Tell me what lack of moral fiber, cowardice
US: Right
GM: Frightening initials. Till today
CB: Sure
GM: That was crude but that was effective and so unfair, it could [unclear] that someone that had done almost a tour and impact in, you know, he proved himself time and time and time again and you’d have reached the end of his [unclear] but LMF had no respect for that kind of achievement, oh, is cruel. We never talked about it. Never talked about it, never mentioned it. You must have found this is the constant in your interviews.
CB: Yes, I have, had a number of people talk about it
GM: Not mention saying what was mentioned
CB: Right, so, it’s been mentioned, yes, by several people
GM: Yeah
CB: And the effect on the crew
GM: Yeah
CB: Because it’s very unsettling
GM: Yeah
CB: And also the deterrent effect, the objective of deterrence
GM: It worked
CB: Yeah
GM: Yeah. Oh God, I’d have died rather than being labelled LMF, oh quite clearly
CB: So, he was commissioned and vanished but what was your perception of what would happen to the sergeants, if they were?
GM: What?
CB: What would happen to the sergeants if they were labelled LMF?
GM: They were stripped of rank of course and just vanished; I suppose. Anyway, I don’t know what happened to the commissioned officer, whether he was uncommissioned or I don’t know. The whole thing’s a mystery.
CB: Yeah
GM: Well, is it Chris?
CB: Yeah
GM: Sorry
CB: It’s alright.
GM: Well, you promised me that you will get access to these four volumes
CB: Yes, absolutely
GM: It’s not the easiest of reading but it’s right up your street
CB: Oh yes, it is
GM: There’s a whole appendix, giving the details about how many bombs fell [unclear] explode for instance [unclear]
CB: Yeah
GM: The bombs were inefficient
CB: Yeah
GM: So many things were incompetent
CB: Yeah. It’s not as though it was new because they had a very high failure rate in the First World War
GM: Yes
CB: Of bombs and shells
GM: My father never once asked me about Bomber Command, very most peculiar, I envy sons who had a good relationship with their fathers,
CB: What was the main stumbling block would you say?
GM: Well, losing his wife when he did, that buggered him, buggered him. Small town [unclear], like his father before him, like his grandfather before him and I would have been the starter, if the tractor hadn’t come, the tractor saved me.
CB: What did the tractor do?
GM: Made [unclear] redundant, no horses, mean this [unclear] two or three [unclear] all gone
US: All gone
GM: My hometown is like, Stamford, you know, agricultural market town. Have you always lived in Stamford, nearby the airfields? [laughs]
CB: In the dark
GM: Yeah, training
CB: Right
GM: Waterbeach, we were sent to other airfields, you see, and I [unclear] all apologetic but five miles apart the circuits overlapping
CB: But it must have been quite difficult, how did you, coming back from an operation or any sortie, how did you identify your airfield in the dark?
GM: Well, the flashing beacons, the Germans knew them all, out, you know, two initials, they never changed, the Germans must have known them all. And the three searchlights intersecting at two thousand feet all over the place, oh God it was a, what a performance! What [unclear]!
CB: So every, when you returned, there was always the searchlight on,
GM: Oh yes
CB: Unless the Germans had followed the bomber stream in
GM: Oh yes, and that should help from the German point of view, why they didn’t do that more often? What an advantage to have their fighters come across
CB: It could’ve been a turkey shoot
GM: It would’ve been a massive one. And they did it, well, they did it, when I was training the Wellingtons it happened once and it scared the daylights out of me, trying to learn to fly and at the same time, knowing there is an enemy aircraft around. Bassinbourn?
CB: Yeah. So if
GM: They missed a great opportunity
CB: If there was a known interdictor, intruder, what did the airfields do, they turned off their lights, did they?
GM: Oh yes.
CB: Then, what did that leave you with?
GM: That never happened to me. No, there was no trouble getting home, I mean, finding one’s way, I mean
CB: Because of all these lights
GM: Oh, the, and you had the radio beams and things, you know
CB: Yes
GM: I took no interest in, QDEM or something
CB: Yeah, did you have DREM lighting as well? The DREM lighting round the airfield?
GM: Yes, of course, I suppose so
CB: They do
GM: Round again that was nothing, I mean, you know, running at night, night flying was easy, it wasn’t difficult, above the weather
CB: And fog?
GM: As [unclear] it is, pilots, well, they know pilots, I when I was in an aircraft going to Boston one day, [unclear] stupid, so I wrote a wee note to the captain, I said, my last flight was from Gibraltar to Lyneham, sixteen passengers, height six thousand feet, and [unclear] speed a hundred and seventy five, can I come up to see you in your office? So the attendant sent up study staring into his cockpit
CB: Ah, this is on a 747
GM: Was it? I don’t know what the hell that was. Anyway, there was a vibration, you couldn’t see a bloody thing and they are all rushing but half a dozen of them, I thought, this isn’t flying, nor is it, we flew through the weather
CB: Yeah
GM: Christ, we, I was flying, you were actually controlling the bloody thing. It was good, you were doing something.
CB: God!
GM: You were in control.
CB: Yes
GM: It was responsive.
CB: How much did you use the auto-pilot on your aircraft?
GM: What you had to do, it was a chore. Invaluable. That night, when I survived the icing cloud, that was thanks to the link trainer, there’s a record at the back of the books somewhere
CB: Of the amount you did on link trainer?
GM: Yeah
CB: But on the aircraft itself, on the Stirling, did they have an automatic pilot?
GM: Oh yes
CB: They did?
GM: I never used it, at least I did in Transport Command, but not over Germany, ever
CB: Because you were always weaving
GM: For a fraction of a second, you know, [unclear]. But the thing is, Bomber Command was never on air, [unclear] my father’s trench war
CB: Yeah
GM: It was boring, can you imagine spending eight hours most of which when nothing was happening, eight bloody hours, Stettin and back, nothing happened, what a bore, all the bombers over over valued because it was dramatic. What the trips, after the raids above Holland, 1944, is undramatic compared to what happened in the air, so Bomber Command was overvalued. Which is why you’re here.
CB: Flying a B-17, how was that different from flying the Stirling?
GM: You couldn’t Make the bloody thing maneuver, it didn’t want to, it just wanted to stay straight and level, which was its job
CB: Yes, absolutely
GM: I mean, the Americans, the Air Force, they didn’t fuck around
CB: No
GM: They [unclear] straight and level
CB: In daylight
GM: Flew it all in daylight, my word, that’s bravery
CB: Absolutely
GM: That’s bravery. Oh yes, we had it easy
CB: And
GM: We had it easy, too much a cream,
CB: And simple comforts on the
GM: All sheets of a kind [unclear] breakfast, drink, cigarettes,
CB: In the Fortress
GM: No, in the Air Force
CB: OH, I see, yes, right, in the,
GM: [unclear]
CB: On the ground, yeah
GM: And too much prestige, too much
CB: In the war
GM: Too much
CB: Yeah
GM: No [unclear], too much. I mean, think what a submarine is like compared to what we did, bloody weeks in the air compared to a submarine, we did a few hours then we were all back to civilisation, so we are overvalued, overestimated. It took me a long time to work this out, I’m convinced of it now
CB: It’s unusual for people to have done more than two, one tour, you did two and then a third one.
GM: No, I did less than two. I did forty-four ops
CB: In total
GM: Supposed to be fifty. I came back from a spoof, nothing, and the wing commander said, Mackie, not [unclear], he’d been a [unclear], Mackie, you’re finished. That’s it, [unclear], I’ll never forget, completely, Mackie, you’re finished
CB: George Mackie, thank you very much indeed for a most interesting conversation
GM: Thank you for coming
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George Mackie
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AMackieGA171222
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:39:10 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
George Mackie served in the RAF as a pilot. He flew forty-four operations, fifteen as a second pilot. Was posted to 15 Squadron in 1941 and critically examines the state of Bomber Command at the time. He was posted for eighteen months to RAF Waterbeach where he flew three operations and took part at the thousand bomber operation to Cologne. Describes the Stirling, its characteristics and performance and compares it to the Flying Fortress. Remembers being hit once by anti-aircraft fire over Leverkusen but without being seriously injured. Was then posted to 214 Squadron, where he flew on Flying Fortresses. At the end of the war, was transferred to Transport Command as an adjutant. Talks about low morale among the aircrew and mentions Scarecrow shells. Remembers his most frightening experience when he flew for five hours in an icing cloud on the way to Hamburg.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
15 Squadron
1651 HCU
214 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
fear
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
memorial
Oxford
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Cranfield
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wyton
Scarecrow
searchlight
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1722/28904/AYeandleBA181229.2.mp3
2ab0b8438e291265ab84c6488aa0d64c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Yeandle, Bertram Arthur
B A Yeandle
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Yeandle, BA
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Bertram Arthur Yeandle (b.1921, 573365 Royal Air Force) and photographs. He served as an engine / airframe fitter with 179 and 23 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Professor Susan Yeandle and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank, and today is the 29th of December 2018, and we’re in Filton, Bristol talking to Bert Yeandle about his life and times. Bert, what are your earliest recollections of life?
BY: Well, I went to school, junior school in North Petherton, and one of the interesting things about the school, I- In those days the 11+ was rather limited. There were almost forty children in my class, it were one girl and one boy, passed the scholarship and taken to the local, to the local secondary school, you know the high school sort of thing. One was, one was the postmaster's son, the other one was the local labour exchange’s daughter, so that- I- You can put that how you want it but I fancied there was a little bit of a twist somewhere.
CB: And what did you parents do?
BY: My, my mother left- Was born in 19- 1880 in about- She went to school in- She was born in Woodstock, or a place called Glympton near Woodstock in Oxfordshire, and she, she- I don’t quite know much about her schooldays but I remember she told me that she had to pay to go to school, even council school, I think they paid six pence a week they had to pay, had to take this sort of little silver sixpence to school. Anyway, eventually she left home and became a cook, and I suppose her training was through her mother, who had been that sort of thing, and she went to work at Puriton just outside Bridgewater, to the home of a reverend doctor, who had five boys, and she cooked in those days and that must’ve been about, about 1893 or something around- I think she’d be about- Well say she was about sixteen from, yeah ninety-six or seven. She was born in 19-1880 that’s be nineteen, sixteen sort of thing, about twenty-six, maybe a bit younger but that’s immaterial, and then she stayed there and my father, he was a tailor, a bespoke tailor, and he followed the trade until, it was- Until the tailoring trade was swamped by the, by the, the Jewish sort of tailors that came the Montague Burtons and the, fifty-shilling tailors and all these sorts of things, and they swamped the bespoke tailors, and there was a lot of unemployment. Anyways, father managed on, things were rather tough in the thirties for me, because father only had three, three weeks- Three days of employment by a firm of tailors in Bridgewater, three days a week and he used to do jobbing, you know, people knock at the door and say, ‘Shorten my trousers’ or, ‘Lengthen the sleeves,’ all that sort of thing, and that’s how he survived until, about 1935, he became a relieving officer- a temporary relieving officer and registrar in Bridgewater and North Petherton district, and he did- He stayed with that situation until he, until he died. He did join up in 1918, in a tailor division, I don’t know a lot about that but he, he, he didn’t- He wasn’t called up before that because there was a lot of uniforms that had to be made in the fourteen, eighteen war, they were knocked up very quickly and, so he was employed in that and eventually called him up in early parts of 1918, I think or something like that. So, he didn’t, he didn’t- he didn’t know much about it. I had one brother, my brother, he joined the RAF soon after me and he went to the, overseas, the force in France straight away. What did they call them, the?
CB: The BEF.
BY: BEF, British Ex- Yep.
CB: Expeditionary.
BY: And he stayed with them till evacuation.
CB: Right.
BY: Evacuation in May, and he didn’t come across with the boats with the masses, he travelled on a petrol bowser with a few other fellows, south of Dunkirk and came across by some boat further down Brest, or somewhere down that end, he got safely home that was that. He was- While he was there in, with the BEF he was a despatch rider and a part-time policemen sort of thing. I can tell you more about him.
CB: Ok, so-
BY: And he, he demobbed just when ’45, you know, sort of.
CB: Right, so back to your early days at school
BY: Yep
CB: Did you enjoy school? What were your-
BY: I think I did yes.
CB: - particular interests?
BY: One important thing was, half way through my school, my junior school, when I was about nine or ten, our headmaster was seriously ill, and he was taken off teaching and a temporary master came to us, who lived in Cleveland, he came down from Cleveland to take over the management, and he brought with him an Oxford University graduate, who taught his boys to play rugby, and he, he took us out and trained us, and of course North Petherton was a hot bed of rugby from 182- 1875, I think. So, they’ve had a history right through the war, all the time and still operating now, and not the same strength but there we are. So, that’s one of my earliest things, and then as father’s financial position got a little better, being in a better job, you know, more- as an assistant registrar and all that sort of thing, he sent me to a commercial school in Bridgewater, at which I, I- As you know, it specialised in bookkeeping, short-hand and I had the option of either learning French or learning Euclid and as it was, I thought Euclid sounded, well a useful sort of thing and I studied Euclid. You know what that is? A sort of offset, the sort of explanation of why something happened, why two parallel lines never meet, you know, all this sort of thing. So that went on, until I left school and, as I said, went to, work as a junior clerk in the Bristol- Bridgewater gas company. All the towns had their own private sort of organisation in those days right, and then from there on I- My, my cousin introduced me to the, to the strong points of being an apprentice, and how good it would be, and he felt certain, even though I went to a commercial school and one of the papers that we had to, we had to take to assess at Halton. You know that do you? There was three papers, English, science and, and general studies. Well, science was a problem and when I got the exam, temporary exam papers and then applied to be an apprentice, I got the temporary redundant sort of thing to see what it was, and I thought what have we here. So, I got tuition privately from a scout-master who was a teacher and he managed to struggle me through, and I passed and I was four-hundred-and-seventy-fourth out of nine-hundred-and-ten so. So, in those days, it- The pecking order was such that as you- The higher you were up the more first chance you had for the trade you turned in. So, a lot of the- you know the top ten, they went for wireless operator, mechanic, or fitter armourer or fitter two or wireless and electronic, that was the four trades of work and it worked out according to your pecking order. So, I, I was more or less, got what I wanted, and I was trained. I went to Halton and after a while, I think eighteen months they decided that they would- It was getting rather over bodied by more apprentices than they could cope with, all of us the same situation was such in Cosford, and we transferred to Cosford, and I finished my apprenticeship at Cosford, and passed out of Cosford. In about the first or second of April- March- January rather, joined Bomber Command at Harwell, that’s roughly, any more questions?
CB: Harwell in Oxfordshire?
BY: Berkshire.
CB: Berkshire it was then, now in Oxfordshire, yes.
BY: It had no, it had no runway, all the air- All the Wellingtons took off, and we, we had about, about eighteen Wellingtons and an Anson and an Oxford. These other two were for local commute, you know, flitting from one station to the other, passing a sort of good word between each station, and- Where are we now? And then
CB: So what sort of date-
BY: I started to work straight away.
CB: Yep, on what?
BY: On Wellingtons.
CB: Yes, but what-
BY: The first job I got- In those days it was- You got the normal sort of daily routine inspection, you got the thirty-hour, you got the sixty-hour and you got the a hundred-and-twenty hour inspection of aircraft, and being a fitter2 E, engines were my speciality, so I was put with another experienced young man, and we had to take an engine out of, out of the Wellington and put a new one in, that was my first job, and then it went on from there and then, you know, various- But I must say at this stage that it was quite interesting, as we came to the hangar every morning, in the middle distance were the Berkshire Downs and invariably every day you’d see a white patch in there, which is a crashed aircraft. Burnt up by the cadmin[?], you know, what the structure was made out, you know, ‘cause they were flying at twenty-hours and twenty-five hours, no experience at all, and then in 19- They had to get airmen in the air, in ’40, some survived that were better than others but- And that was- But, as time ran on there as normal daily work and we obviously, that the RAF, or Bomber Command as every other command, very conscious of the, of the sabotage which was occurring out in airfields and things like that, and there was guards placed in the insert and outs of the hangar in the first six months of 1940, you know, for- We just didn’t know what was happening, or they didn’t know, and eventually we run up to, to Dunkirk. Now as soon as Dunkirk was sort of settled, within about- When all the ones that were able, were home to their homes or their units and such like, there was that fear of paratroopers. So, we had set up in various teams of about twenty, and we had to man the airfield at an hour before dawn, till two hours after dawn armed with fifty rounds of ammunition, waiting for the parachutes to come. Fortunately, they never came. So- But we’re there waiting and being a lad of nineteen, you know, you had that fear of- You’re out- ‘Cause differing at nineteen, and one of us twenty-five and thirty and go on doesn’t it, and you know, I thought it would be a good job have a shot at these people dangling down with a canopy above ‘em, but it never happened, and then that eased off and we’re on Wellingtons, carrying on ‘cause I think we had about seventeen or eighteen there, and as I told you before we- Our job was in the early stages of March, April, May, May sort of thing was bombing, was nickel bombing or leaflets, propaganda, you know, distribute all over Berlin and all other places like that, and I wish I’d salvaged a couple and got them now, they were interesting to see but we just flung them in the dustbin as it was, you know, you’re- And that was it until, until it came- Now where are we now? I’ve lost my self a little bit.
CB: Just stop a minute.
BY: In, I’d never heard of it before, the Flight Sergeant Warrant Officer in charge of the hangar, who was the boss and you know, you know that sort of, the power they had, you know, they’d do this that and other, you can’t do this, you can’t do that, you must do this, you know, that sort of business, and he was, he was a West Indian, and in those days, you know, when you met a coloured man, you- It was unusual, and he was a boss there, and he was the boss all the time I was there. I don’t- What it- Where he ended up, I don’t know, but he was very efficient. There’s no doubt about that. So that’s-
CB: How did he get on with the-
BY: I think he got on very well, we, we respected him, you didn’t- You respected authority in those days but we were, we were sort of brought up at Halton to sort of respect authority, you know, and-
CB: So, you arrived at the airfield, what did they do as soon as you arrived?
BY: Well I mean we’d already gone through the fundamentals of- Medicals and all that sort at Halton, you know, we’d had a very good briefing there, we’d learnt a lot about air force law, and drill ‘cause we- Friday afternoons was the drill, Monday- Wednesday afternoons was sports afternoon, Friday afternoons was ceremonial drill, and in between we were taken to a study room to read- to study, or be read the air force law to us, what we should do and what we shouldn’t do, and of course we got the King’s Shilling at the time.
CB: At Harwell?
BY: At Harwell, yeah.
CB: So, you arrive, it’s one of the expansion period air fields-
BY: Oh, it was yeah
CB: -so it’s well set up-
BY: Well, I don’t know whether you- You’re aware of this but Lord Trenchard in 19- When he was the head of the metropolitan police, he looks at the Air Force and he said, ‘We’re all behind, we’re backward,’ compared to the Germans and all- ‘We’ve got to get a force of grammar school boys,’ and especially grammar, ‘who’ll take an examination, Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and fit them and train them to be the ground force of the RAF regardless’.
CB: Yep.
BY: Regardless at the time, you know, what- But there was quite a few people that applied for aircrew at that time and then after about- And I applied but I was, I was a bit late in applying, and at that time the Air Ministry said, ‘Right no more ground crew, we’re not going to spend money training you people for two-and-a-half, three years, and send you off flying and lose you in, in no time’. So, they focused- I don’t quite know what they- How they focussed their attacks on getting more aircrew into Bomber Command and Fighter Command and all the communication and, you know, air sea rescue and all this sort of thing. Not air sea rescue, command control they called it, not air sea rescue, command control.
CB: Coastal Command?
BY: Yeah, Coastal Command, yes.
CB: Well, it was expanding fast.
BY: Yeah, and so he, he emphasised that we gotta get- We’re having an entry of every two months- Every two year, every May- Twice a year.
CB: Yes
BY: Twice a year.
CB: Into Halton?
BY: Into Halton, and Halton was getting a bit overloaded it was four big squadrons there then and we- Then they formed us into five squadron, and we- Then they took us to Cosford, but we had the same standard of education and we all had to go and get the same trade test as well. We had to go to- In those days we had to get a trade test as well so, before you passed out into your squadrons or whatever, and a good job- A good majority of us, you know, had to what they called the warning of going overseas, and I went overseas on the 1st of January- Well I, I left home, left my father and mother on the 1st of January 1941.
CB: Right. Can we just go back to the Halton bit?
BY: Yep
CB: Because it’s quite important here, I think. What was the routine? You’re young, you’re sixteen, you join the air force and you’re in a barrack block-
BY: Yes, indeed.
CB: -with a dormitory, so how many people in the dormitory?
BY: About thirty, and being a clerk before I joined up, most had come straight from school.
CB: Yes
BY: I was the, room clerk so I had to take a name, address and next of kin and all that. So that was my job which in a way was a better job than doing the ablutions or, you know, dust under the bed and, you know, that sort of thing, centre floor. So that was my job and that was the first thing we did at when we got- We had be registered and then what information, detail went to the office and all that sort of thing. Of course, we- All letters home had to be censored, and it started on from there.
CB: Was there censorship before the war?
BY: No, no, not to my knowledge.
CB: Right. When you, when you got up in the morning, what time of day was that?
BY: Six-thirty.
CB: Ok, then what?
BY: Six-thirty, and breakfast was half-past seven to half-past eight all properly dressed, no nonsense. Three mornings a week, we had to get up at six and that was for PT. Not very strenuous but get some fresh air and running out, loosening your limbs from lying in bed. Our bed time, for the first year, was nine-thirty, we had to be in bed by nine-thirty and lights out at ten o’ clock. It was no smoking until you were eighteen, and then you only smoked in certain parts. Lights out, as I say and as the next year went on until we left, you carried on the same routine. I think the- I think we could, light’s out was at ten o’ clock, but we still carried on a routine of breakfast, to the hangar, orderly dressed, if you didn’t- If you weren't orderly dressed- I mean I was caught once wearing a pair of red socks, somebody saw me, took my name and I was jankers, you know what that is?
CB: Yes, so you, well you’d better explain- What are jankers?
BY: [Laughs] Well jankers, first of all you had to report to the guard room, with your best blue on at six o’ clock, at night, and a nine o’ clock. You were inspected by the, by the orderly officer or the sergeant, and which then were detailed to the severity of your crime, into the cookhouse to scrub the floor or, do any duties that were necessary there, and that’s really what it worked out to be. So you were punished, you either got three days or seven days. If you were a really naughty boy and done something really serious you might be sent out to a, a sort of home where they vetted you and gave you a suitable punishment. I remember one situation, I can recall where we took an engine out of- Took a pega- ‘Cause the Pegasus and in-lines used in the Wellington at that time, as a sort of spare. What they could get hold of really, suitable, and this fellow, he had to drain the oil obviously, and he disconnected the oil and the engine, under the coupling to the and shot it out, and shot off the, oil of the tank which was remaining in the petrol tank, I think it was about thirty gallons of oil in this petrol tank and the-
CB: Oil tank, yeah.
BY: And instead of just screwing the thing up, he poked a bit of rag in first of all and screwed it up, eventually the aircraft crashed because the next person undid the union, connected up to the engine, are you with me?
CB: He didn’t know that there was a rag in there.
BY: He didn’t know that there was a rag in there, and that obstructed the flow, and the aircraft crashed because there was a seizure on the engine and he was sent up to field punishment camp.
CB: What happened to the crew?
BY: The crew, I believe were killed. I wouldn’t like to say for definite on that, the aircraft definitely crashed.
CB: A thing like that’s very serious, so to what extent would the- At what point would a court-martial be convened for that sort of thing?
BY: Well, you’d go there- I expect- I don’t know whether, whether it was tantamount to a court-martial, I think it is. If you were sent to the- What is it, what was I, called the name? The home?
CB: The punishment.
BY: The punishment home, if you were sent there the odds are that you would take a service court-martial.
CB: Right.
BY: And every time you were a minor punishment, like I just mentioned what I did with my socks or, you know, I- You had to go in front the CO, and wait in a corridor ten minutes and let him get his breath and you’d get your breath back, and you march in and salute him and all that sort of thing and, the charge was there, with the corporal and sergeant that had found you, that sort of thing, you know, that sort of thing. But, you know, it taught us discipline, and it taught us how to- You know, you got to draw the line sometime, you can’t do what you like, you were treated well, the food was very good in wartime and right up to- Food was very good. Our education, we had twenty-five hours at workshop and fifteen hours in schools, and I always remember the first, the first day at school- We were presented with, the unification of- The one before, oh I don’t, I can’t think of the name, but it was quite severe. I was out of touch really, and I- We sat in, in a order in the schools, alphabetically, so the fellow sat beside me was a brighter boy than I was and he was a good lad and he used to help me a little bit with my sort of, you know, sneaking across a piece of paper and the answer to one of the things. Unification of something, what is it? What is that, a receive before, before algebra? Anyway, it was quite severe and, our history was about the air force, how it was formed, what the blue means and all that sort of thing and the various stations around the company and the general studies was about the various historical, which would affect the air force. We had a good sort of grounding there.
CB: So when did you actually join the apprentice scheme at Halton? It was ’37 entry, when was that?
BY: January ’38.
CB: Right.
BY: I had to report in January ’38. I took the examination in Weston-Super-Mare, in I suppose about- I think it was about September, something like that.
CB: Yeah, and then the course finished after how many years?
BY: Well, the course finished just under two years, we didn’t do the three years because the situation was such that they wanted to cram as much in as they possibly could, you know, we used a few more hours and with a little bit more private study and all that sort of thing. So-But on balance the boys that stayed at Halton, or the ones at Cosford finished at the same time, with the same ability.
CB: Yeah
BY: Group one, we were group one tradesmen, a Fitter2. At this stage, after the war, I with about, about seven or eight-hundred other ones, got converted. You see I was qualified at that time- When I passed out, I was qualified to do any job, to do with the engines, aircraft engines, take the prop off, all that sort of thing, hydraulics and various numatics, and such like. The other tradesmen had their sort of- We never touched any armaments or that was their job, and the wires, nothing to do with that sort of thing.
CB: So you were technically an engine fitter?
BY: And then after the war, I did one year's course to convert me to the air frame side of it, so consequently when I left- We had this course at Locking, RAF Locking in Weston-Super-Mare and when I left that one, I was qualified to do anything on any aircraft you see. That was very handy for the airport because during my time at Halton- At Harwell, there were always visiting aircraft coming in, and if you were a duty flight you had to see to them and deal to them, see what they wanted and see them off. Usually, the crew stayed in the mess or the officers mess or the sergeants mess, that night and off they went for somewhere else. So that was our responsibility, to deal with any visiting aircraft.
CB: And what extra training did you get while you were at Harwell on modern aircraft? Was the Wellington-
BY: We studied, we studied the in-line engine and we studied the radial engine at Halton.
CB: Yes.
BY: In fact we started off studying Morris motors engine.
CB: Did you?
BY: That was our first job, you know, when they introduced us to the internal combustion engines. So, they started off that and we learnt what, you know, what- How tappets worked and the valves and- I mean I didn’t have a clue when I, when I came, sort of thing, but you soon pick it up don’t you?
CB: Well, it was good training wasn’t it?
BY: Oh absolutely, ‘cause I would- And even Geoff will tell you the same thing, the best time of his life was at- In the boy’s service, you know, the apprentice service.
CB: Now talking about that, we talked about you being in a room in the barrack block, thirty people. Was there a corporal in a room at the end in his own?
BY: Oh yes, yes.
CB: So how did that work, there’s a single room at the end with a corporal in it?
BY: Yes, I can remember his name, Corporal Ratcliffe his name was, he was our corporal in boy’s service. He was a very nice chap, he was a sergeant apprentice.
CB: Oh
BY: And he- In one of the earlier entries obviously.
CB: Yes, yeah.
BY: And he was- Well he just kept order, you know, if we lost anything it was up to him to sort it out, and any real complaints we went to him and he would carry the complaint on to, you know, his senior sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, so he controlled the room.
BY: He did control it, but, every morning the orderly sergeant came in at half-past six and shouted, if anyone was in bed, they didn’t stay in bed very long.
CB: So, you get up and you wash, what do you do about the beds?
BY: Oh, it’s most important, folded up your blanket, two blankets and a sheet, a pair of sheets, folded up neatly, stacked up- Our beds were Macdonald[?] beds, sort of-
CB: Two billows deep?
BY: Yeah, close them up to a sort of a sitting distance, sort of thing, from that, from that distance down to there, and you had to pack your, your blankets and your alternate levels and make it look tidy, and your pyjamas on there. The-
CB: Then there was a-
BY: Then the laundry business. We had two avenues for our laundry, the laundry was our boiler suits, ‘cause we all wore boiler- And do you know, we had to wear a tie then, in the hangar room all the time, collar and tie, it's crazy isn’t it? But we had to wear it, if you see anything on the pictures, you see- So we had a [unclear] avenue, a special bag with our names, that was most important, you had to get your names on all your equipment, and then for the other bag, for your- What you called you domestic, was your towels, I think we had two lots, two towels a week and shirts, collars and detachable-
CB: Detachable collar, yes.
BY: Socks, and basic things in that thing, and your sheets. Oh, the sheets went in another basket that’s right, they went into another basket.
CB: How many pairs of sheets did you get a week?
BY: Oh we used to get- I think we got clean sheets, real clean sheets every fortnight.
CB: Right, yeah.
BY: I think that’s what we had to do. So, that was an alternative sort of, pack your bag with washing.
CB: So, there was an inspection of the beds, and the blankets every morning?
BY: The orderly officer came round every morning, while we were on parade. We- And to go to the hangar we paraded at half-past eight in our lines, you had to answer your call- Answer, it was a roll call, and then we- In the boys service we had to march to our schools or our workshop but when we got to the squadron, to 148 Squadron I was on, we just more or less- We just walked to the hangar, and the Warrant Officer he knew who was who sort of thing, he knew who was missing and then, and then in those days we had a restroom, we’d a break and restroom in which we had a chap who wasn’t an apprentice and he was responsible for making the tea and, he had an avenue of going out and getting tea- What we called tea and wads for us, and he made us feel- And we had to pay him, I don’t know, pay a tuppence a week or something like that, he made a living out of that, sort of thing, subsidises his letter income, and the money we got, in the boys service, was a shilling a day. Right, and we could allocate four shillings of that to the post office, to the post office or any other form that your parents wish you. So that’s the sort of- When we went on holiday, our end of term, which was about twelve or fourteen weeks, we would get instead of picking up three shillings at the pay table, we would pick up about ten, eleven pounds just, you know, to satisfy, to go and-
CB: A lot of money in those days.
BY: It was a lot of money, but didn’t seem to last for long ‘cause we had to find our own soap, our own toothpaste, our own chocolate and toothbrushes to [unclear], but the [unclear], hairbrushes, combs you had to find ‘cause they were always being lost, or, you know, that sort of thing, so we made this- And then there quite a little bit of trading going on, you know, if you got broke say you’ll borrow a shilling for one sixpence to return, sort of thing [chuckles] it’s funny really. Mind you, all this is- I’m trying to talk- Remember eighty years ago, you know.
CB: Exactly. Now on that, because this is so different from today-
BY: Oh I don’t- I-
CB: When you went to eat, where did you eat? This is at Halton, where did you eat?
BY: In the cookhouse, what we called the cookhouse.
CB: Right, how big was that?
BY: Oh quite a big place, but it had to, to accommodate sort of each squadron.
CB: And the squadron was how many people?
BY: Hundred-and-twenty, hundred-and-fifty, that sort of thing. I might be inaccurate by that, these numbers, my mind might forget little-
CB: And the menu was-
BY: The menu was very good
CB: - was fixed or, choice?
BY: We had a good breakfast, a good lunch and at tea-time we had cake, and bread and butter and jam, and syrup was always on the table. It- When I got to the squadron, I’d been put on night flying, the night flying duties were as such, you did a day- We’ll say night flying was on Monday night, you got to the hangar Monday morning, you would do your job, you’d be working on the aircraft which is flying that night, and every aircraft that fly that night had to have night flying test. So aircraft had to fly in the afternoon, late afternoon and the pilot would check it and do- He didn’t- They only did a sort of large circuit and all that sort of thing, and if it's come back it was all right, if it’s a small item, it was put right and then you were called according to the time of day, I mean night flying would start- This time of year it would start about 7 o’ clock, and [unclear] the pilots would do- Or the air [unclear] would do two sorties. Three hours, come back, refuel and another three hours, maybe two hours, it depends on what the circumstances were. So, I mean, you know, that was a night flying programme. I know I'm a bit disjointed but you can all sort this, when you read it I'm sure. And then on occasion- This is interesting, when you were on night flying duty, or in duty crew, you had to see any aircraft in and sometimes they came in at night and they would land in between two rows of flare paths, and the flare path, no electrics, it was like a paraffin watering can with wick coming out the spout [chuckles] yes, you’re smiling, this is true though, and the line I think was about twenty
CB: This is paraffin?
BY: Paraffin, and the aircraft would land in between that, and it was a tedious job you had to go, you know, you might- We didn’t have a vehicle to do everything, mostly the vehicles were for driving the petrol bowsers about, so you couldn’t do that, but to go to one end of the airfield to the other you had to walk, or bicycle, or whatever, and- So we had to put these flare paths out then, when it was daylight, they all had to come in, it would be twiched[?] and checked- Make sure they’re serviceable for the next night, it was everything. But, it’s a bit hazardous sometimes, if one had blown over or something like that, and you were told by the flying control to go out and see to that, take another one out, and, you know the RT wasn’t all that clever, and if you had to land with something, you know at that time- Pretty precarious.
CB: So how was the communication on the airport- field? Was it- ‘Cause there was no radio so was it done by flash light?
BY: Yep
CB: Or morse code?
BY: Aldis lamp
CB: Yeah, aldis lamp?
BY: It- The aircraft would come in and flash the green light if it’s ok, and you would reply with that. If, wasn’t- If you weren’t ready, it was a red light and they’d have to go round and come again, sort of thing like- That was the basic sort of thing. Where are we now?
CB: So as you’re onto that, what communication did you actually have with the aircrew themselves?
BY: Very good. They were, you know, more or less you were- Your aircraft was his aircraft and his aircraft were yours and, you know, you saw him off, he knew you and that sort of thing.
CB: Were you normally in communication, ‘cause there are five or six people on the Wellington, so were you talking to the pilot?
BY: Oh yes, well mainly- We talked to the pilot and the navigator and they would come up, but mainly the pilot because he’d know the condition of the engine, if there was anything wrong or if there was a mag drop or no oil pressure or, or the heating was not, not good, it was overheating sort of thing, and-The armourers, if it was, if it was- Had to be armed they, they trolleyed in with their weapons and opened the bomb doors and, did that sort of thing, so it- We all had- It was very organised and there was the petrol bowsers- for starting up, you’d plug in, you know, and make sure the battery was charged there, that sort of thing. The trolley acc’s, we used to call pushed them out there.
CB: Yeah, so the trolley acc is a trolley accumulator to start the engine isn’t it?
BY: Yeah, and at night-time you got into a routine and when you saw the aircraft come in you had two lights sort of thing, you’d wave them in sort of thing. In those days the connection between the ground crew and aircrew was very good, extremely good- Well they- You were responsible for their safety and they were responsible, you know, for the safety in flying, you know.
CB: You had responsibility for certain aircraft only, not all of them?
BY: Well, it depended Chris, you know, how long we, you know- What the situation was, every day is different.
CB: Yep.
BY: So that takes us up to- And then our first bombing on this aircraft- On this airfield. I was in the cockpit and I remember quite vividly what I was doing. I was adjusting the controls to the elevators from the cockpit, and I was- And suddenly there was a- The air warden siren went and I could just see bombers going down the, sort of runway line dropping sort of bombs, not very big, they didn’t do much damage. But after that they decided this was dangerous, we’re gonna- One of these days it’s gonna hit the hangar, they’re either going to bomb the hangar or they’re going to bomb headquarters. So every night at the end of the day we were bussed out to a village called East Hendred, which was the home of the race horse stables, ‘cause that was a hot race- Newbury and all that areas, and we lived in stables there for quite a long while. Right until the end, until I went overseas, and all we had in these stables- But we, we were fed by bus to the, to the unit, come- You know, we had our meal in the evening before we left, and we were taken down for our breakfast in the morning, sort of thing. But, the heating in the- All we had in the stables was two beds and blankets, as I told you, two blankets and sheets- No we didn’t have sheets, we had blankets, just blankets, and in the corner was a sort of shelf which they used to put the hay, stack the hay in and we used to put our bits and pieces in there or, and we had no heating except valor heating, valor stoves do you remember the valor stoves? You remember them Chris, don’t you?
CB: Oh yes, yeah.
BY: And that would heat our water to have a good wash and shave at night.
CB: You just put it on top?
BY: Yeah, and it was only two of us to a stable, so it was enough on a big bowl to wipe our, and then we wandered off in the evening to the village- East Hendred is a place, you’ll see it on a map now, it was a very-
CB: I know it well.
BY: You know it well?
CB: Yeah, yeah.
BY: And it was a stables, the owner was a man called Bell, Dr Bell I think, he owned a string- And another thing, we used to see the horses go across in the very early hours of the morning being led off in the downs, you know, in the distance. Nowhere near the airport, but it was a good country to live in really.
CB: What about the social life?
BY: The social life wasn’t very much, really, well we had a NAAFI, and we used to go in there and we could- There was a couple billiard tables and that sort of thing, we played billiards quite often. You just took your turn with it, dartboards, crib boards and table skittles, all that sort of thing, and we were after a while allowed to go out in the village and have a drink and all that sort of thing. It, you know- All blackout mind, severe blackout, it was quite fun at times but you know where you are, you know.
CB: But the local towns were not exactly on the doorstep, so the nearest one was Abingdon really, so did you get to Abingdon?
BY: No, it was good, you know, looking back now. I can think quite a lot about it now. But this carried on more or less, you know, until we were called for- What were they called? Advanced order for overseas, and they told us, it was about November that we were going overseas. So we had some warning to tell our parents and all that sort of thing.
CB: Is this 1940, ’40?
BY: This is the end of 1940, December 1940.
CB: Right.
BY: And then we set off, and when we went off there, we went to Hednesford, and we assembled at Hednesford. When we, when we had our date to ride- Mine was the 25th of January, and it was at the other entry, or the other group was 18th of January, so they took it in two- There was too many to- It was eight-hundred, to many to manage straight away so that's how we worked it out. We had assembly at Hednesford, and then we were entrained to Didcot, and when we got to Didcot we sort of- There was a coach to take us to Halton.
CB: What was your most memorable recollection, would you say, of being in Bomber Command at Harwell?
BY: Well, my servicing of aircraft there, the general tidying up of the- After an aircraft came back from their sorties, they were tidied up, got a lot of these pamphlets, these nickel sort of things hanging around-
CB: Yes, it was called nickelling wasn’t it?
BY: Yeah, and they were dated, you know, each- I think they were re-written every- Or printed about every fortnight or something like that.
CB: In your recollection how did the crew react to dropping leaflets instead of bombs?
BY: Well, I don’t know, most of them were not all that experienced, because after a while a bomber got introduced to the fifteen- It became the fifteen OTU Operational Training Unit, and that sort of combined, the activity of Bomber Command and Training Command under the umbrella of Bomber Command.
CB: Yeah, to increase their effectiveness they formed the Operational Training Unit.
BY: That’s right yeah. Well, they were so concerned, the Air Ministry were so concerned about the number of pilots they were losing and crews in respect of Bomber Command and every other aircraft, they were losing aircraft very quickly. Thank goodness there was such thing as University Air Force Squadrons, you know, all the squadrons and they supplied, and the pilots that were trained mostly through gliding before the war, they were very much, they filled the gap.
CB: They were so desperate for aircrew but they couldn’t fill the gaps.
BY: Absolutely, and of course- And then when, then- We’ll go on now- Shall we leave now and go onto the-
CB: Yes, let’s just go back to Halton, let’s just go back to the Halton bit because this actually is fundamental to your whole career isn’t it?
BY: Oh it is, it was. It was the making of me.
CB: Yes, so we talked about the, the mechanics of getting up in the morning and the disciplined aspects but you had breakfast which was until eight-thirty.
BY: Well, we had to be on parade at eight-thirty.
CB: Eight-thirty parade, so how long was the parade?
BY: And you had to be buttons cleaned, hat badge clean, you know, and, sort of thing, I mean a lot of that was done the night before, if you’re not careful.
CB: Yeah, yeah, and were you good at spit and polish on your toecaps?
BY: Oh yeah, well, well they were clean, they- We didn’t come up to the army guards, that sort of thing, but they had to be clean, you know, and haircuts, short-haircut. I mean there’s one story about- I don’t know how true this is, a Warrant Officer used to walk around the bill with a pair of clippers in his hand and if he saw a chap with long hair, he’d just run a little avenue at the back of his head, and he’d have to go-
CB: On one side only.
BY: And there was the camp barber, of course.
CB: Yep.
BY: He was a civilian. There was also a place where you could get your shoes [unclear], but didn’t very often get your shoes ‘cause they were good quality boots. We had boots first of all.
CB: Did you have to-
BY: Hurt my feet first of all, but you soldiered on sort of thing.
CB: So, the parade would last how long in the morning?
BY: Oh now, very quickly. The order was, the orderly officer and the orderly sergeant would be posted at the end of the square, with the [unclear] and reveille would be sounded there and then, and then the flag would be hoisted to its position, and then (I was telling the boys about this the other night) the orderly officer would call the parade to attention, that was a whole wing parade that was, quite a lot of boys there, apprentices, and then they would say ‘Fall out the Roman Catholics and Jews,’ and they had- And we all had to go, or whoever it was, in that denomination and get on with this- We had to go to the back of the square and face the opposite direction, while the padre appeared, said a prayer and that was it, sort of thing, and then this would last for a few minutes and then we were called back, and we’d have to sort of about turn, march back sensibly and take our position in the ranks and- And at any time, if you weren’t on the parade and when- At night-time, I think it was about an hour before dark, the last post was sounded, and you had to stand still if you were in sight of it. You didn’t have to salute or did you have to? No, you didn’t- Had to stand still. I mean this is the sort of thing- Can you imagine a sixteen-year-old now wanting to do that sort of thing? They’d laugh you all the way down the road, wouldn’t they? I mean we did it normally.
CB: Yeah, part of the discipline
BY: And felt proud, you know, we all did it together. We’d talk, you know- There was an awful lot of gossip, and we’d play cards, and things like that in the barrack room, but we didn’t play- But in the NAAFI, it was quite a- There was a games room in which there was plenty of, you know-
CB: Quite a hum?
BY: Oh yeah.
CB: And what could you drink in the NAAFI?
BY: Ah, now, only tea and coffee, tea and cocoa, tea and cocoa and, and-
CB: No beers?
BY: No beers, not to my knowledge, not in the boys service.
CB: ‘Cause of the age we’re talking about?
BY: Yeah, the boys service-
CB: Under eighteen.
BY: Or no smoking, you might nip away to the drying room, have a crafty cigarette, but if you were caught you were in, you were-
CB: In for jankers really?
BY: Jankers, with a yellow band round your arm.
CB: Clear identity.
BY: Clear identity.
CB: What about Sunday’s then? Church parade?
BY: Sunday’s, yes, church parade and we all had to- Every Sunday was church parade and we went to ours- Sometimes they had to march to Albrighton when we were at Cosford or, I don’t know where we went at Halton, oh I think there was a, there was two churches at Halton and we had the services there, but it was a quiet day sort of thing. The rest of the day you could do what you like, go back to your billet, go to bed or- And look, you had to attend your meals at a certain time or you didn’t get any. It was usually I think from twelve to half-past-one or something like that, and I always remember at tea time we always had a nice slice of beef and a slice of ham, and there was cakes on the table and there was bread and butter and there was jam, you know, not marmite, I don’t think things like that, but there was syrup, treacle we used to call it, sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, and would you have a dinner later?
BY: No, no. That- not on a Sunday that was the end, but we had a dinner at six o’ clock, so that was our last thing.
CB: So you had tea time and then dinner?
BY: Yes, yeah.
CB: In the weekday.
BY: Yep, weekday yeah. Sunday’s was exception really but we didn’t, you know, I suppose that depended on the, sort of, the manpower of the cooks and people there. They had to have time off and-
CB: And how did you get on with the local population when you went out of the camp?
BY: Oh very well, we had to- When you went out you had to wear a uniform, so you knew who you were and it was a long time before you could go out in mufti sort of thing. I think on the whole, it was, really seemed good. They knew, they knew- I mean the local population they knew what had gone on sort of thing. In Didcot, you know, in the shops they knew who you were and all this sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, so when you’re on station then, so when you were in Harwell, going out then that wasn’t the same sort of restriction ‘cause a) you are adult and b) you are part of the RAF?
BY: That’s right, that’s right, yeah. You had- You could smoke then if you wanted to, and- I can’t remember. Yes, I think we could go into a pub, I think. I don’t- I’m not certain about that, I won’t say one thing or the other.
CB: But you had to be in uniform whatever?
BY: Yes, yeah. In those days.
CB: Yeah, so what was the competition for social events with aircrew?
BY: Oh, there was inter-squadron football, rugby, hockey, cross-country, you know, all that sort of thing, on a Wednesday afternoon, and on Friday afternoons, ceremonial drill, and the bagpipes had their ribbons, they were all dressed up and a band drummer and there was a separate barrack room for the band. If you were in the band, you lived there. You were still in the [unclear] squadron but, domestically you lived there mainly for practicing for- The noise, trumpets and all the various instruments they had, it would be enclosed in that barrack, you wouldn’t disturb the others, and we had rooms for private sort of study, where you could go if you were- Hadn’t done very well in your subjects and you were- Had to smarten up and all that sort of thing.
CB: So at Hal-
BY: We had a very good library and-
CB: That’s at Har- At Halton?
BY: Yeah.
CB: At Harwell-
BY: I can’t remember much about- It was a working town there. You had to get down to it you know-
CB: Harwell is twenty-four-seven isn’t it?
BY: Absolutely.
CB: Because it’s wartime, every day is the working day. So how did you get a day off, was it sometimes- Was it on a rota or what?
BY: I think we get a weekend now and again on a rota sort of thing.
CB: Because flying would carry on at the weekend as well as daytime, weekday.
BY: That’s right yeah, and it was easy- And in those days you could go outside the camp and somebody would pick you up, I mean you would hitch hike from Harwell down to, down to Bridgewater and- Quite easily. You might have eight or nine [unclear] and people would- Who were driving they- It was the exception if you had a vehicle, a trade vehicle, it would stop and pick you up, there was no compulsory, all that sort of thing.
CB: So what we’re talking about, you were nineteen when you- At Harwell, and then-
BY: Well, I was twenty-one, I had my twentieth birthday I think when I was at Harwell.
CB: Still at Harwell?
BY: Yeah
CB: Yeah.
BY: So in the time when we to field the- load our rifles with fifty rounds of ammunition hoping to shoot a parachutist down, you know, somewhere round my birthday sort of thing.
CB: So what sort of training had you had for shooting?
BY: Oh, we used to go- We had to- You had a training place where you got- You could practice two-hundred-yards and five-hundred-yards. But that was well-managed and you had to be very careful-
CB: That was off the airfield?
BY: Oh yes, yeah, and of course, all the guns at the time were kept in the armoury, we never had any guns in the billets or anything, firearms and all that sort of thing, it were all in the armoury and that was pretty well guarded, you had to go in and sign for the gun or whatever, the number and-
CB: When the war started, often aircraft were put away in the hangars at night, what happened at Harwell?
BY: Well, in most places, in Halton- Well mainly talking about Harwell, places we had a sort of open-ended sort of shelter, built of sandbags for the aircraft to go in just in case there was a- [unclear] shrapnel or whatever, damage and, but one or two was damaged and we lost one or two at Harwell, obviously, aircraft. But latter on in my- After the war days I mean, we lost very few planes, most of the pilots were very, very accomplished and very [unclear] because they survived the war and a lot of them had got glider training.
CB: Oh, glider training. Let’s just pause there for a bit. So, Air Force Law, how much did you get of that? At Halton?
BY: Well, you had confidentiality of any activities that were on the camp, like bombing raids, or things like that, never, I suppose it was violated so many times but that was the rule. Air Force Law, what to wear, the history- It was a book about that thick, it was the air force bible sort of thing, and it went right through from the early days of the amalgamation of the-
CB: The Royal Flying Corps
BY: -the army, the naval and-
CB: The Naval Air Service-
BY: - and the Air Force as in those- 1918 when it was started properly and it was a book and all that- It was read to us and we could ask questions and, it’s a difficult question being asked of law. There were rules and regulations which, kept the service as a service sort of thing. I can’t stipulate exactly what they were but I mean, they were rules such as that.
CB: Well, we had the original Official Secrets Act?
BY: Yes, that’s right.
CB: How was that described to you?
BY: Well, that was read to us.
CB: Right.
BY: And there was a notice up on every barrack room entry and all that sort of thing, and beside that was a fire bucket, two fire buckets, one was sand- Or two with sand, ready to put out any fire and a sort of a fire extinguisher on a hook beside in the barrack rooms. So that was, that was one of the laws of things about safety. The laws of safety, the laws of sort of discipline, there was laws of confidentiality, cleanliness and, you know- And of course the other thing that we had quite frequently was VD inspections. You had to stand in a line, drop your trousers and they would- The Medical Officer would come round and check all that sort of thing, you know, and that- I don’t think that mattered too much when we were in the boys service but when we got into Bomber Command that was in- Well that was the natural because, I don’t know if you read any of the book of Bomber Command, they- A lot of them were terribly-
CB: Infected?
BY: Well, I’ve got a book in there it’s, I’ve forgotten what his name is but it’s one of the most in-depth sorts of stories that you can read about what happened in Bomber Command, the crews- The couldn’t care less once they, you know, they focused on their job at question. Their lives at- Anything else was-
CB: Life expectancy was so short.
BY: Yeah. They didn’t know whether they were coming back or not, they were coming back it was jolly good but if they didn’t, you know- And of course they were all young men a lot of them were all, twenty-two, my cousin was only twenty-two.
CB: And the term station bicycle, was running in those days?
BY: Is that- Yes oh yes, well sort of thing, I know what you mean, I know exactly what you mean.
CB: What about security, where-
BY: Oh security, you got in trouble if you broke out. You had to be in at all levels, in the boys service you had to be in by, I think it was ten o’ clock at night. You had to be in your billet by ten o’ clock.
CB: Well, part of the legal aspect, was also related to a comment you made earlier about sabotage, so what was the issue with sabotage and who were these saboteurs, potentially?
BY: Well, the German aircraft, the German prisoner of wars that were already captured and were in camps in England and wherever, and they all wore a special uniform, of big yellow patch on their elbow and something. They would recognise them quite easily, sort of thing, but- And they did a lot of good work because they were put to work you see, building walls and things like that, and all sorts of things. But I think the main worry about the whole service aspect was, the shortage of food because you see, I haven’t spoken to you about this but my trip on the troop ship was- I can tell you quite a bit about that but the, the U-boats- that were shot down, or sunk rather in the North Atlantic in February, March was amazing, and they were carrying food from Canada, from America, from South Africa, from anywhere, the West Indies, wherever they could get food to England, and, you know, that’s why the drive for dig for victory, you know that slogan? You know, that- Everybody had- I mean sports field, stadiums were ripped up and turned into allotments-
CB: And on the airfield itself, there was a vegetable growing patch was there? And also-
BY: No I can’t remember one really, the only thing I remember was a tremendous sort of- On every camp was petrol dump and that was guarded and surrounded and, you know, all- Every security was made to maintain that, sort of thing.
CB: And the coal dump?
BY: Oh yeah, yeah. I’ll get the boys get another cup-
CB: Ok we’ll stop there. When we were talking about law earlier, there’s Civil Law and Air Force Law but the concentration was really on Air Force Law, to what extent did you learn about Civil Law as well?
BY: Well, I feel that, if you committed a crime and the crime reached a certain level it would have to be tried by Civil Law as well, and- Does that help?
CB: Yeah. It was just putting things into context wasn’t it?
BY: Yes, I mean- May I put it another way, that the Air Force, or the services are not solely responsible for the law of the land.
CB: No
BY: It assists obviously, and they guide and the sort of, you know, they do all the speed work for it, but at the end of the day it’s the same as all laws- I mean it seems that, that [unclear] does, all goes through but they don’t always take note of stuff ‘cause they don’t know, they don’t understand it, I mean she’s been at that game for- What is she now? Sixty-nine, she’s been on it thirty years.
CB: Your daughter?
BY: Yes.
CB: But in the air force context, then it's always stressed is it not that the ultimate sanction they have is the courts-martial?
BY: Correct, yes that’s right.
CB: We’ll stop there for a mo.
BY: The war, only as- When they were in captive, not how they were kept, and what conditions they met led up to them being captive for what they were doing, sort of thing, I can’t say any more than that.
CB: Where were they housed? When you were at Harwell, where were they housed?
BY: To be quite honest I can’t tell you, I didn’t see- I saw more of them later on in the service life.
CB: Yeah.
BY: When I came back from overseas, I was- Because they didn’t get out- They didn’t get home straight away, sort of thing, they, on their own.
CB: No, but in the early stages then we’ve got aircrew who’d been shot down and that sort of thing.
BY: I think the majority of the prisoner of wars didn’t want anything- They were quite happy, they were fed well, they, you know, they had communication to- That’s another thing, we didn’t have any communications you see, nothing at all it was no- There was no- Or might be how today, I mean, things happen so quickly now.
CB: Yeah.
BY: Don’t they and I mean-
CB: Were your parents allowed to know where you were serving in the RAF?
BY: Oh yes, oh yeah, they knew where I was staying but they didn’t know anything about- ‘Cause the only information that I had with them was by- We used, what they called aerograph[?], it was a sort of a, I don’t know how it worked but I presume it was telephone- By telephone to some paper company in England and sort of transgressed that way.
CB: This is when you were abroad?
BY: Oh yeah.
CB: But when you were at home, that is to say at Harwell-
BY: Well at Harwell, I came home quite- Several days- Several weekends, that was several weekend- I suppose I came home- I was there best part of a year and I suppose I came home about three times that year. So I had some idea- Did we have our tea? Fair minded answer he could’ve given me.
CB: Yes, the parents supported you but they- Indirectly.
BY: Yeah, at Halton they- I think they wrote to the padre and found out how I was getting on, so- But mind you, on the first day when we went to Halton there was quite a few went back by train the next morning. I don’t want to live in-
CB: I can believe it, yeah.
BY: I don’t want to live in a situation like this.
CB: Yeah, even though it’s- Well in peacetime they had the choice.
BY: Oh yeah, yeah.
CB: Yeah, when I joined a man left after one night ‘cause he couldn’t stand being in a dormitory. When the war started-
BY: I wonder what he would’ve been like in the stable?
CB: Oh, nightmare.
BY: Oswald Bell, that’s the man, Oswald Bell he was the owner of a fleet of horses in that part, East Hendred and-
CB: When the war started in September ’39 you were still at Cosford, when did the control of letters start?
BY: Oh when I went overseas.
CB: Right. Not when you were in the UK?
BY: No, I don’t think so, I can’t remember so. But, I mean, I had the- In those days you could ring up home I think, but once you got abroad that was it sort of thing.
CB: Yeah.
BY: Do you want me to tell you a little bit about troop ship life?
CB: We do, so where did you embark?
BY: From Liverpool, and we went- I told you we assembled at Hednesford and we all marched to- ‘Cause in those days there was a railway station right on the quayside at Liverpool. I think well, I don’t know where the dock was, or, well it doesn’t matter what the name of the dock was, but we all assembled there and we all looked up and we said (there was about fifteen-hundred of us) ‘Are we sailing that thing?’. It was an eight or nine-thousand pound boat, used to be hauling before the war, before the Air Ministry got hold of it, was hauling sort of meat from south of- Argentina to Britain ‘cause we had a lot of meat from Argentina before the war, you know, and anyway, we looked at that thing and we turned round, then were down at the gangplank an’ we were marched up there, and there was not- It was amazing, well it beggars belief, that to house twelve to fifteen-hundred men, there was about five toilets, there was no proper mess decks where we could sit down and have our meals. It was a shambles, and, fortunately we had one officer- We had beside tradesmen, this fifteen-hundred tradesmen we had three balloon squadrons there, it was- There were not very many in the squadron but the leader of the balloon squadron was a, was an officer called Garry Marsh, he was a film star, he made several films if you go through the film industry you’ll see his name and he was Bill [unclear] and all these sort of things, and he stood by us and he said, ‘This is not on,’ he said, and he allowed us, or encouraged us to walk down the gangplank and walk of the ship, and we all walked off the ship down the- Nearly everybody walked off, and there was a crowd on the quayside and here and there, there was an embarkation officer who’s duty was to, to deal with the shipping of troops onto the boats and they were prancing around with their revolvers hanging round their neck. There was a- This lasted for about three or four hours and they decided, the Air Ministry in their wisdom (and I do say wisdom) decided- So they sent us back on the train again to a place called- I can’t think of the name of it- In, not very far, about twenty miles away in Lancashire and they kept us there for a fortnight while the people, carpenters, you know, various people, sorted out the mess. The boat was left to be expected, to sail around the world in, sort of thing, and eventually we, we were housed- Next time we were marshalled up, and we were- I think there were soldiers there, so making sure that we didn’t start running. Now go up the gangplank, went up the gangplank, we’d been to- No Hednesford, was it Macclesfield, anyway we’ll say it was Macclesfield, it doesn’t matter the name of the place. We were there a fortnight, and the air force law was tramped down to us, what we should’ve done, it was, it was, you know, to mutiny- It was a mutinous act and all that, without, you know, despite what the circumstances were. I mean it was a non-starter right from the go of it, the- Anyway, when we went back the second time, we were made certain we went up the gangplank, and the gangplank was pulled up very quickly and it parked out about three-hundred yards off the shore, so we couldn’t get back, and this was in first week in January- First week of February, I think. But before the Captain of the boat had orders to move off and join the convoy the other side of- We went over the top of Ireland into the Atlantic, North Atlantic. When the Captain of the- I mean a small sort of powered lighter / launcher came on with an MP, the local MP, and a Minister of Health or something like that to see it was fit for us to go, and he must’ve said ‘Yes,’ and off we went. Anyway, we got clear and went to the high seas on the North Atlantic, cold, windy, wet, oh miserable it was. I can always remember it, and there were four ships there, four troop ships waiting to go, ranked on the horizon by three or four capital naval ships, HMS- I forget- Three- Two of them were dreadnought and other one was cruisers, you know, that sort of thing, and they- And once we got away from the shore every day the controller of the naval boats would indicate to the Captain of each troop ship where we had to sail, how we had to- And we were sailing, one day we were going east, one day we were going west, it was like a [unclear]. They knew where the submarines were, they knew where the activity of the U-boats were, especially at night, and it took us fifteen days to get from Liverpool to Sierra Leone, Freetown in Sierra Leone. It’s not called Sierra Leone now is it, what’s it called now?
CB: It is called Sierra Leone.
BY: Is it?
CB: Yeah, yeah.
BY: And, and during that time we were- We all slept in hammocks, shoulder to shoulder, [unclear] you know, and of course when the boat rolled, you were- You can, well I don’t need to explain, you can imagine can’t you? People close to- head high. And that’s how we carried on. But as soon as we- And we weren’t allowed ashore, I suppose they thought, ‘This is a [unclear] lot, we’re not gonna let these people get ashore,’ they- We were anchored off about half-a-mile away from shore at Freetown, and- While some sort of, operation or conference carried on, we don’t know what, but what we do know is what we saw, was little boats coming out, young lads about fifteen or sixteen kind of boys, local boys- Boats were full of oranges, lemons, bananas, grapes and- What their technique was, you see, they came up to the boat, they were allowed to come up to the boat and they had, they had another basket which they would attach to a rope, they’d fling the basket up to somebody leaning over the taffrail, catch onto it, put their money in, sixpence or a shilling, and what you got for a shilling was amazing, sort of thing, and then you’d send the empty basket down carefully, with the money in, and then they would put the goods in it, up it’d come again and- And that carried on for best part of a couple of days. So we were getting stuff from these people unofficially, but we were happy to pay for it. I think, I think the most you paid was a shilling or half a crown or- I think some people who had money- But that was the end of- But then we carried on then, it was all peaceful then to go down to the Cape, there were massive boats, there was bunting flying off the ships all- There was no restriction of the- You weren’t allowed to smoke in the North Atlantic in the first fifteen days, I think it was a little bit more then fifteen- It was fifteen days we didn’t see land, and through the zig-zagging sort of direction which we came from to avoid the enemy, and at night you see we used to hear the depth charges going.
CB: Oh did you?
BY: Yeah, every night there were depth charges and submarine gunning for, you know, all that sort of thing, and fortunately we were lucky but a boat before us, in- Was sunk down and about thee-hundred went down, you know, you didn’t hear much about it, well the public didn’t know much about it. But- And the waves were cold, and the waves and the boats were going up like that, you see pictures of it now but- They were up to twenty feet sometimes-
CB: Were they really? Yeah.
BY: You know and-
CB: Not comfortable.
BY: That wasn’t comfortable that, but I think most of us were frightened, we were really frightened because we were there- We were defenceless, we didn’t have any armours, arms, we were just on that boat, and we had the handicap of what was flung at us by the, by the German naval people. But-
CB: So what did you do all day on the ship?
BY: Well we had- There was lots of little, all the- They made certain that we- There was quite a few people and the cookhouse was on a wire cage on the deck, open deck. This is hard to believe, you wouldn’t think- but- and I might be able to show you some of the information on- And then there was guards for spotting periscopes, or spotting any enemy ship which might’ve drifted into that way or any happening on the [unclear], on conditions of weather and if there was a- So we were occupied by doing sort of duties all the time, not all the time because there was a lot of- We could sit down in the mess decks down under and play cards or play games or draughts or whatever, chess or whatever. We passed the time away like that, and then eventually we got to Durban and we were allowed ashore there. We were there for a week, so we could leave the boat from twelve o’ clock mid-day to twelve o’ clock in the morning, to twelve o’clock at night, have to go back to the ship, back to our hammocks and all that sort of thing. But, in the meantime there was a scheme in Durban, and I think this applied to a lot of the South African sides, course the apartheid was very strong at that time, very much strong, and these English people or, we’ll call them white South African, they sort of encouraged- And I was going along with two fellows, two RAF fellows and two army chaps and they said, ‘Can we take you somewhere to give you a meal?’ and oh, you know, yes we could see there was some, you know- No, no restrictions there so were went with them, then we went to their house for the day, for the evening and they took us back to the boat at night and that sort of scheme, and that carried on for about five or six days, and they contacted to our parents, they wrote to our parents as civilians-to-civilians. So our parents knew roughly that we were all right as far as Durban was concerned, and then it was all back up through the Mozambique Channel, to the Suez Canal and we alighted at Port Suez, and then all stand- Hang around there for days and days, we didn’t get any money for a while, you know how it is. Everything was done alphabetically, and I was a ‘Y’ so I had to wait for my money till the second day or something, something like that, and then eventually it all- They already- There was some former thingy gone on, they had some workshops built there, they didn’t have the equipment all together or they, they- Some other boats must’ve brought in- But we had machine tools and things, and very soon after about a fortnight, three weeks, we started servicing Allison engines, twelve cylinder American engines which were fitted to-
CB: To Kittyhawk's?
BY: Kittyhawk's, Tomahawks. Tomahawks were the first one, then the Kittyhawk's, and also there were three sections, there was the Allison section which was the inline section, there was the Cyclone section which was a radial and the Pratt & Whitney section was also, Pratt & Whitney. So these three sorts of lines working at top speed, twelve-hour shifts to service them. A lot of them were coming in, in packages- The Americans sent them over to Takoradi somehow and they used to come through Deversoir back to where we were in Kasfareet just couple of miles outside the Suez Canal so, and there was plenty of workers, plenty of things to assemble and fit, and they all had to be tested as well so. Some were assembled by- If an aircraft came in with an engine to be changed, well the engine would be taken out and a new one would be put in and that sort of thing, and- So there was plenty of activity there, and this activity went on at the height of the war in the desert war, and they had several sort of Commander-in-Chief, who weren’t very good until Montgomery came along, he sorted all that out. He was a queer man really, I mean he would- He lived by himself in a tent with his batman and didn’t associate with anyone else but he was, he was a very keen operator, he knew and- Nearest we get to- Got to the line was about ten miles away at [unclear], they came down to us. So, it could’ve been a, a nasty episode and then that carried on, carried on and things got easier, lots of activity in the desert, sometimes some of us had to go into the desert to do a job and back again sort of thing, and then eventually we, we landed, or we’d driven by truck in a convoy of about hundred vehicles along to coast road of North Africa to Tripoli. Now a lot of people say there’s only- There’s two Tripoli’s, there’s Tripoli in Palestine or that part of the world, there’s another Tripoli in North Africa, and we went to the one in North Africa, which was quite well equipped because Mussolini spent a lot of time and he, his- He had some good thing about him, Mussolini, he colonised a lot of North Africa and he got work for the tribesman there and he got their, he got their side [unclear]- Anyway, it come to the point- It was three factories there, there was a Alfa Romeo factory, there was a- What was the other one? Well-known name, car factory, and we took over one of the car factories, and that was well equipped with everything we wanted and then we eventually transferred to Centaurus engines assembly centre- Which we then had cooperation with Bomber Command because they were flying and a lot of our work was down to 87 Squadron, I think it was, Beaufighters. You know, we- And then I was there a little while and then they flew us back again to Naples, and then come across again in a troop ship, another open ship over there, or a smaller ship and we carried on and then by that time, the British Army had conquered North Africa and then we’re talking about now 1942, ‘43 sort of thing, and then they moved across to Naples then, basically, and we settled in Naples and we did the same work there in Naples and- I was there at Naples for about eighteen months doing the same sort of work, you know, and- Enjoyed life ‘cause it was a bit easier and we had, we had better sort of living conditions in Italy, and I stayed there till Easter ‘45. So, I left my mother and father at the 1st of January 1941, and I never saw them again, I never spoke to them again till Easter ‘45. That’s a long time, now if you were married, you only stayed three years but I stayed four years and- Four years plus, and of course I should’ve come home on a bit- I got injured playing sport sort of thing, so I had to take- It was one troop used to go back in the 1940s to England every year, every month see, one troop out a month, so I had to stay back another month, not that I worried really ‘cause I was quite happy there and I had a nice little house, room overlooking the bay of Naples and could see Sorrento in- Sorrento were in far away and Capri were in high- You could see- It was a wonderful place to stay, so these are the plus sides of things, you know.
CB: How much work did you get done?
BY: Oh a lot of work, we had to work hard there. I mean ‘cause of continuous work coming in from the western desert-
CB: Is this damage, or servicing?
BY: Oh yes, damage some damage and some, quite ridiculous. I remember one case an aircraft was flown in, and the people that dealt it did very well, it was a piece of shrapnel, or bullet or something, gone through one side of the, one of the cylinders, and it went right through outside and out the other side and some clever fellow, he sort of made the two holes, rounded them either side, he poked a piece of tube in right the way through and then he drove two wooden spits into either side, and that aircraft flew back.
CB: Did it really?
BY: Yeah, it’s amazing that, I mean the pilot took a chance but he succeeded because the circulation of fluid in the twelve engines. But they were they were cheaper and easier to assemble then the Rolls Royce were, they weren’t so complicated. But- Where do we go from here?
CB: Right, so how long did you stay out there? So, we’re talking about getting into Naples then the Italian surrender-
BY: I got into Naples on October ’43, and I stayed there to Easter ’45, and we stayed in a vacated- What do they call them? Where people go mad. An asylum, it was quite a big hospital and we turned that into a proper workshop, where we could service aircraft and send them out, and all that sort of thing, any small items had to be done and- I think spares were the problem ‘cause they had to come from the UK. But they eventually did get because-
CB: Which of the aircraft-
BY: At that time, I think just about- I’m not quite certain what the date was when it- When the Mediterranean was cleared for English shipping to come through. I think it was ’44, I think. Or would it be, sometime when they were- When the invasion of Europe was, sometime-
CB: Well, they invaded Southern France after D-Day, so that meant that the Mediterranean was reasonably-
BY: I’m not certain about those facts Chris, but-
CB: What aircraft are you servicing now?
BY: For Beaufighters.
CB: Right, still Beaufighters.
BY: Yep, Beaufighters. They were the main things, ‘cause we were in sections so all our work was done- I was working on Allisons all the time see.
CB: And are these Coastal Command by now or are they Bomber Command- Middle East Air Force?
BY: They were Bomber Command, they were Bomber Command, well-
CB: Middle East Air Force?
BY: I’m not certain about that ‘cause they policed the Mediterranean for a long time.
CB: Were they rocket firing or, were they bomb dropping?
BY: They were bomb dropping and rocket firing yeah, but some of the, some of the very well-known pilots were killed in that, in that place because when the Mediterranean came under the control of the allies, parts of southern, the southern side of that below Israelia, Heliopolis[?] and all these places were still sort of under the jurisdiction of the Germans really, but that was soon cleared up and-
CB: The Vichy French?
BY: Yeah, that’s right yeah. But eventually it sorted itself out and-
CB: But in Italy, you were in the Naples area, but how far north did you go from Naples?
BY: Not very far.
CB: Right, and then where did you go from Naples?
BY: Naples, I went back to North Africa for a while, when the Centaurus came in because a team of Bristol aeroplane specialists came over to give us indication of the servicing, the stripping and the, you know, general of the Centaurus, which was a sleeve valve engine, and-
CB: Though, retro fitted to the Beaufighters were they?
BY: I don’t know are they? Yes, I think there were and I don’t know what other aircraft the fitted to, Buccaneers or something like that.
CB: No, no that’s a post-war-
BY: But while we were at sea coming or going out or- We would often see these pre-war, sort of aircraft flying around, you know. It’s quite amazing.
CB: So then, when did you return to the UK?
BY: As I said, April, Easter ‘45. I then went there to St Eval in Cornwall and 179 Squadron and they had, what’s the name- But their job was- And as we were at St Eval, war ended, European war ended.
CB: Ok.
BY: And the job was for- Our job was to go to every, every- The Atlantic or any of the waterways and direct the, any German vessels or whatever to enter English ports, and that was our job and, I was only there about two months and then, I was posted to Accrington in North of England, Northumberland on 213 Squadron then we went- That was a night fighter squadron, then- From then on my last four years in the Air Force was in night fighters, and that was-
CB: Were these nights fighter or were they interdictors who went in the bomber stream?
BY: They were all Mosquitos, latterly we had the Jet Age came in just as I was leaving, and that was an Armstrong Whitley fighter. You don’t hear much of ‘em but that’s what we had first of all, I’ve got a picture of them somewhere but-
Other: A jet plane?
BY: Hm?
Other: A jet plane?
BY: Oh yes.
CB: I’ll just stop there a bit.
BY: -14 Squadron-
CB: Which was at Accrington was it?
BY: No, no, this is at Coltishall.
CB: Oh Coltishall, ok.
BY: Which is now closed, near Norwich.
CB: Yep.
BY: I had a call to go the officers mess, and when I got there, it was the Squadron Leader there, a VR, volunteer reserve on- He’d come to visit the CO, it was a- Well they were doing a sort of volunteer’s activity on the weekends in those days, and I- And he called me and he said to me, he said, ‘I understand you’re,’ this is what he said to me, ‘I understand you’re leaving the Air Force in the next month or so.’ I said, ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘I’m now married and I want to raise a family and I feel that if I raise a family in, you know, civilian life it might be more advantageous.’ Anyway, I said, ‘My wife is a school-teacher in Bristol and, good school and, I don’t want to upset her sort of way of life’. ‘Oh that’s fair enough,’ he said, he said and he said, any-rate, he asked me a few questions then he said, ‘I you like-,’ he gave me a card, he said, ‘You come and see so and so on such and such a date, we’ll find something for you,’ so I said, ‘Oh what have you got in mind?’ ‘Oh,” he said, ‘We’re building up our sales unit.’ So I said to him straight away, ‘Well I don’t want to go on selling things,’ I said, ‘That’s not me,’ I said, ‘I’d rather, I joined the Air Force to learn about mechanics and sort of how to use my hands and how to use machine tools and, all the other things that go with that sort of life.’
CB: Yeah.
BY: So he said, ‘Well I tell you what,’ he said, ‘If you were still wanting to carry on and be turner, or slotter or,’ you know, all these sorts of things, he said, ‘We’re starting a small shop.’ And there was seven of us, not a very big shop it was, but we were there on our own, just the seven of us and we had quite a few machine tools in there, everything from presses to sort of, everything which was needed to do anything in the engineering, more or less, on a small scale [unclear], and, ‘Would you like to join that?’ I said, ‘Well that sounds, that sounds more my line.’ So I started there, I stayed there with them till I retired. But the beautiful thing about- Everyday- Now what we were doing, basically, the technicians in those days, I mean, in the drawing office, people were drawing, they were tracing and all that sort of- Well nowadays they don’t do that at all it’s all done electronic as you well know. What they were doing, the drawers would come to us with an idea to make something, to design something ‘cause this is unguided weapons ‘cause there was a lot of hard work in the early days of weapons to make certain everything was, you know, spot on and weight and all that sort of thing. So we used to get [unclear] of drawings come in to do that, some on ordinary paper, some on blueprints, mostly in blueprints and then you would, you know, study them, or and that was it. Some jobs would take a day, some days two days, sometimes a fortnight sort of thing, and every job was different, and some of this work it was the pre, what’s the word, before something goes into designing?
Other: Prototype?
BY: Hm?
Other: Prototype?
BY: Prototype, that’s the name. Before the prototype, we were getting everything before the prototype. Now in that case it was a lot of, well that’s not what we want or, that didn’t sort of suit us or that didn’t work out when it was tested, and we had a big cellar underneath and we’d just drop it underneath and wait for the next idea to come from them. So it was- I stayed with them because I found it interesting.
CB: What was the company?
BY: Bristol Air, Guided Weapons Department, and I stayed doing that, people say, ’Well you should’ve gone, you should apply for this and apply for that and gone or.’ I’m a believer in job satisfaction rather than job achievement, maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm wrong, but here I am.
CB: Didn’t do you any harm did it?
BY: No.
CB: And you enjoyed the work?
BY: I enjoyed the work and I found it interesting.
CB: And you rose up in the-
BY: Well, I mean, I mean, your ability, and what is more you see, people are always coming down to us and saying, ‘Something’s wrong with my motorbike, I want a new bush or something,’ you know, and we would turn out a new bush for him or that sort of thing and he would give us half a crown or whatever. You know, I miss all that, and to make things for myself you know, odd times but my- But really and truly, all the time I was with them I was occupied all the day long.
CB: And you enjoyed it?
BY: Yeah.
CB: Now you’ve got three children, where did you meet your wife?
BY: I met my wife, first of all, her father’s a farmer and mother- She’s the youngest of seven children so, how can I put it? She was- She used to come home from Bristol to a place called Othery, which is not very far away, near Langport, you’ve heard of Langport, near Langport, to the farm, and help her mother every Friday or Saturday. She’d come round Friday evening and stay to Sunday night, go back to school on Monday morning, and at the same time I was at Locking, on this one year's course, fitter one's course.
CB: Yep, Weston-Super-Mare
BY: And we used to go up by train, she went back by train and we met on the station, I happened- In the old days the corridor trains, you know, you sort of meet and talk to people and- I used to see her several Sunday nights and then I wrote to her, she wrote to me I don’t quite know and it all started from there, and we got married this was 1948 sometime, ‘cause that was the year I was at Locking and then 1949 September we were married, and she was still teaching and then we bought this house, how much do you think I gave for this house?
CB: When?
BY: 19- I was what? 19- In 1951, I was thirty, it must’ve been about 1956 I bought it.
CB: Crikey
BY: 1956.
CB: Well less than-
Other: Thousand?
BY: Hmm?
Other: Thousand?
BY: Two-thousand- No.
CB: Was it?
BY: I bought it for two-thousand-and-fifty, it’s now worth-
CB: A bit more?
BY: A bit more, a lot more.
CB: Yeah, what do you reckon it’s worth now?
BY: Well, the house next door is empty, my neighbour next door she died not very long ago, couple of months ago and she’d lived there for sixty years.
CB: Gosh.
BY: And her house sold I think for three-eighty, three-hundred-and-eighty-thousand.
Other: [Chuckles]
CB: Amazing.
BY: I mean it’s ridiculous really.
CB: Yeah.
BY: And maybe I shouldn’t tell you this, but I'll tell you this. I came out of the Air Force with a thousand quid in my pocket. My wife, I used to send to my wife my Marriage Allowance ‘cause I was married for eighteen months. So she had about over a thousand. I was about five-hundred pounds short for buying the house so I went to the bank manager and he lent it to me and about three months we cleared our loan, I never had a mortgage on this house other than-
CB: Amazing.
BY: And I, you know, I think of my young boys there- Two of them living in London, well you know what it’s like.
CB: Yeah,
BY: It’s frightening
CB: Absolutely, nothing for a million.
BY: Nothing at all, and I tell them what they’re going to do I think, ‘cause one, John, that’s the one that his wife, or his partner really, she’s an Executive, she’s a bright girl, she’s in the Save The Children organisation. Good job with them earning good money, I don’t know what she’s earning but they’re thinking about- At the present moment they’re living in London and paying rent and I said to them, you know, ‘It’s better to buy somewhere, and pay your mortgage, because you have got something at the end of it, whereas you paying rent is just money down the drain’.
CB: That’s right, yeah.
BY: And John is working in London, he works for England’s Rugby Union
CB: Oh, does he?
BY: That’s John, so they’re all- But they’ve all got jobs and they’re coping alright and David’s retired but he’s got his own business he goes, ‘course he was well known in a lot of the people in London, reporters and the Editor of the Financial Times quite well, you know, ‘cause he was a spokesman for Engineer Employers Federation-
CB: Oh yeah, got around a bit.
BY: And he said to me, when he found out David retired ‘cause David he’s got MS as well.
CB: Yes, nasty.
BY: Doesn’t walk very well, and this chap said, you know, he said ‘You want to start a business on your own, just going round chairing meetings’ and that’s what he does.
CB: Oh does he really?
BY: He chairs meetings, goes round- So he must be good at it.
CB: Yeah, how intriguing.
BY: You gotta be firm when you’re a Chairman, not let them, let the sort of syllabus wander on and wander on, you’ll be there all night otherwise, but that’s what he’s doing now, and he does- He’s his own boss he can go when he likes and he lives in, in Southampton, goes up to London quite frequently and most of these businesses down in London ‘cause he said to me, ‘I know more people in London then I do in Southhampton,’ but-
CB: We’ve covered a lot of things and early one you mentioned a passion for rugby? So what’s happened to your rugby life?
BY: Well, my rugby life, first of all started off learning- I come from a rugby village but, and I played quite a bit in the services, I was always in the station team and then I played in that- I tell you what, I’ve got a cap in there with a tassel on it, because there was a competition between the eight Commands; Fighter, Bomber, Tech Training, Flying Training, [unclear], what’s the [unclear].
CB: And Coastal?
BY: Coastal Command, it was quite- And they all have got a big command, there were a lot of men in the Air Force in those days in- This is 19- 1942 I think- No, no 1950 something and, so I- We had- They saw I was capable so they selected me out from Coltishall and I went with others and we assembled at Uxbridge as a Command side, and we played this competition against all the other Commands and we won it outright you see, and we had a hell of a time when we won ‘cause we were invited to Bentley Priory, and had a big- I think there was about, eight or nine officers and there was one All-Black was a player, there was one current in National playing in the side- So there, you know- They all knew what it’s all about sort of thing and we had a wonderful time and I’ve got a few photographs, you’ve seen one or two there and I’ve got a cap, they sent me a cap with the excuse, ‘We’re short of money, normally our caps are made of velvet but I’m sorry,’ but they got it printed on there, I’ll show you in a minute before you go.
CB: So when-
BY: And in between I played for Bridgewater and Albion, and I’ve played for Weston-Super-Mare, I’ve played for Devonport Services, I guested for Norwich and Lowestoft when I was over at Coltishall and so, you know, I’ve been around a little bit. Fortunately, I’m still here Chris, to tell the tale.
CB: Really good, yeah. Well Bert Yeandle, thank you very much for a most interesting conversation-
BY: Well I hope I’ve been- I hope it makes sense for your-
CB: I think it will fit really well, thank you.
BY: Do you? Really?
CB: We do, absolutely, thank you.
BY: Mostly-
CB: Your engines?
BY: Well the first engine I worked was a trainee engine, was a Morris Motors car, yep, that was in training, but then we came out I worked on Centaur, Pegasus, Merlins, Griffins, what’s the other ones?
CB: Derwent?
BY: Derwent, yes.
CB: Jet?
BY: I’m not very, I haven’t seen a lot of Jet engines because when I came out of the Air Force, I went into guided weapons you see, so that was the slight-
CB: So you were really a rockets man as well?
BY: Yeah.
Other: In terms of beauty, which would you say was the most beautiful engine you’ve worked on?
BY: Oh, the Rolls Royce, no doubt about it. It’s the most efficient, yeah, and I’ve worked- A lot of aircraft I’ve worked on, all sort of aircraft you know, Spitfires and Hurricanes, a little bit of Hurricanes, and Mosquitos are the aircraft I spent a lot of time on, and Wellingtons early on. They were not very good, you know, Wellingtons. Well in hindsight they’re not very- They were at the time, I mean, industry moves on, technicians move on and development moves on but I mean, an awful lot of aircraft that were built that were rubbish really and now when you compare with what there is at the latter part of the prop jets. See I came over, I flew over from Belfast to East Midlands just now, came over on a prop jet.
CB: Oh, did you?
BY: Hundred people on it, so they still use them, not that I- Fleebye-
CB: Flybe.
BY: Flybe, but I like to fly with [unclear] the one, yeah. Well-
CB: Thank you.
BY: I should’ve liked to of given you a cooked meal.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Bertram Arthur Yeandle
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-12-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:53:57 Audio Recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AYeandleBA181229
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Great Britain
Italy
Libya
North Africa
Egypt--Suez Canal
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Norfolk
England--Somerset
England--Oxford
England--Shropshire
Italy--Naples
Libya--Tripoli
England--Oxfordshire
Description
An account of the resource
After leaving school, Bertram Yeandle joined the RAF apprentice scheme and trained as an engine fitter at RAF Halton. After completing his apprenticeship at RAF Cosford, he was posted to 148 Squadron, RAF Harwell, where he serviced Wellingtons. In January 1941, Yeandle was posted overseas. He describes his journey via Sierra Leone and Durban and servicing Allison engines near the Suez Canal. He then travelled to Tripoli, North Africa, where he serviced Centaurus engines for Beaufighters. In 1943, he was posted to Naples, Italy, and service aircraft there until Easter 1945. Finally, Yeandle describes his post-war life, including meeting his wife, competing in an RAF rugby competition, and working in weapon development after leaving the air force.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Tilly Foster
Jean Massie
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
148 Squadron
Anson
Beaufighter
fitter engine
ground crew
ground personnel
hangar
Oxford
RAF Coltishall
RAF Cosford
RAF Halton
RAF Harwell
RAF Locking
RAF St Eval
sport
training
Wellington
-
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0790563fc62e7b551572d27dce6b2e22
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1120/11611/AShackletonHL170629.2.mp3
deffa07f6b04fde87f3d4c28d76b63c3
Dublin Core
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Title
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Shackleton, Henry Leslie
H L Shackleton
Description
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An oral history interview with Henry Shackleton (b.1922, 68185 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 405 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Shackleton, HL
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CJ: This is Chris Johnson and I’m interviewing Henry Shackleton today for the International Bomber Command Centre's Digital Archive. We are at Henry's home in Kent and it is Thursday 29th of June 2017. Thank you, Henry for agreeing to talk to me today.
HS: It's a pleasure.
CJ: So, first of all Henry could you tell us please where and when you were born and what your family background was?
HS: My father and indeed my elder brother and I are all civil engineers. So when dad came back from Canada with my brother and my sister and he and mother landed in England, I was born in Hailsham which is on the outskirts of Eastbourne. So I’m English but my brother and sister were Canadian.
CJ: Okay. And did you go to school in Hailsham when you were old enough?
HS: When I was a year old mother took me up to Heysham. My father had decided to no longer be a civil engineer but looked at Butlins Holiday Camp and thought, ‘Ah. I'll compete.’ So he bought a castle in Heysham where he had the Morecambe Bay Holiday Campers. And therefore I grew up from the age of one to the age of ten with all the happy campers around me with my mother saying, ‘Darling, if they offer you a sweet you have to say no thank you twice. If they offer it a third time you can have it.’ The number of times I said, ‘Ah. Ah.’ And they went off, but I did get some sweets.
CJ: And did you have an interest in your early years in aircraft or flying?
HS: Just once. Mother and I went down to Blackpool where Gracie Fields was on show and there was a chap there who said, I can't believe it, ‘For ten shillings two of you can come up in a plane over the bay.’ I believe, certainly we did it, mother and I in this plane. And I said, ‘This is thrilling, isn't it?’ But that was the only bit I’d ever done before the war.
CJ: And when did you volunteer for the services? And why did you choose the RAF?
HS: Mother and I, just mother and I alone, my brother and sister were away at work or school just before the war. We were living near this house here at a place called Holmlea, Rhodes Minnis, and I was in the garden and mother called me in from the garden on September the 3rd 1939 and said, ‘Darling, come in. There's something on the radio.’ This was in the days before television. And on the radio there was a voice saying, and, ‘I am Mr Chamberlain and I have to tell you as the Germans have refused to withdraw from Poland consequently this country is at war with Germany.’ So I turned to my mother and I said ‘Hey, I’ve seen Spitfires above Rhodes Minnis. Do you think I could be a Spitfire pilot?’ And she said, ‘Darling, you're far too young. You're only seventeen.’ Anyway, I enquired and they said, ‘You can join The Air Force in Canterbury when you're eighteen and three months’, and I joined exactly when I was eighteen and three months saying, ‘I want to be a Spitfire pilot.’ ‘Oh no. You've got to do various other things including marching.’ A thing I found quite interesting in that first half year before I started being trained as a pilot we had to march to teach us what people did in the Air Force. Obeying orders. But we also were down in Torquay for a weekend break and there I was told that an RAF officer wished to interview me while I was down there. I didn't know it but it was to be an interview to see if I was of officer of material. But I didn't know it but boy did I say the right thing. I went in there and he said, ‘Sit down,’ he said, ‘You arrived here yesterday in Torquay.’ ‘That's right,’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And he said, ‘What did you do? Just go swimming?’ ‘No,’ I said, ‘As a matter of fact I paid ten shillings for a ride on a horseback.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I have two horses. I’ll tell you I have this model and I have another one here,’ and he told me all about his horses and I got a commission [laughs] Anyway, on we go to the next one. Such was life. Anyway, we did the roundabout and do our duties and I rose from aircraftsman second class to leading aircraftsman to go to Meir, Stoke on Trent where a Flight Sergeant Raffley was to be my instructor on Miles Magisters which is still my favourite little monoplane. Lovely little thing. He said, ‘I’m in the back. You're in the front. You’ll do what I bloody well tell you.’ So I did what he told me. After six and a quarter hours he said, ‘You can go solo.’ And then it rained. So you can't. And it rained for three or four weeks. He said, ‘You can't go up now,’ he said, ‘With that interval you've got to come up with me again.’ So I had to go up another three hours with Flight Sergeant Raffley. ‘Off you go on your own,’ he said. I went up, thrilled to bits, all on my own. And I waltzed around thinking gosh this is wonderful. Oh blimey, where's the airfield? And there was nobody with me to tell me and for the life of me I couldn't find that grass strip. Oh, there's a railway line. And I remembered there was a railway line near it so I went to the railway line and I got on it. And then to my horror above me I saw barrage balloons with wires going down on either side of the railway line to keep the Germans away from bombing it and me in the Miles Magister going where the Germans shouldn't be. And I thought, well I can't turn left or right so I carried on straight. Oh, there's the field. Thank heaven for that. Went down and landed. Thank God for that. So that was me solo. I was then sent to the RAF station. What is the head office? And there my instructor was a far more superior man. It was Flying Officer Raffley MC. Went to Cambridge University, ‘Shackleton, take your seat. And before you do anything else there's one big error the Royal Air Force people have. They insist upon saying, when they take over an aircraft, ‘you've got her’. I can assure you there is no need for the word ‘got’ in the English language so with my pupils, you ‘have her’. What he didn't realise, and nobody could ever tell him, noisy aircraft require a virtual ‘Got,’ which you could hear. If you said, ‘I’m sorry, I didn't quite get that,’ at which point you've crashed. Anyway, while we were with him we had to say ‘you've got her’. and I said ‘got’. He said, ‘Right. You qualify. You can get your wings now at RAF Cranwell College’, and I said, ‘Oh good. Spitfires?’ And I’d been trained on an Airspeed Oxford, a twin-engine bomber. ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘No. No. You and I together are going to be instructors. I'll be doing more. You'll begin. You have qualified as a flying instructor and we're going abroad I can't say where we're going because I don't know but we've to get in a train next week.’ The train doors were locked and we went from Middleton St George all the way up through England. Got to Glasgow. We were released from there, put on a boat and before we knew where we were we were in Iceland where I was in charge of the censorship. All the letters that were written there, and we were there three weeks I had to check as a nineteen year old and there was some, ‘Darling, I can't say where we are but it's an enormous clinker.’ So I had to put a line through it and tear it off. And we were there three weeks because there were three U-boats outside wanting to kill us. We had to wait ‘til they left. Then we were put on a huge vessel and where did we go? Canada. Where in Canada did we go? Where my brother and sister were born. And I was there a year and a quarter while my dear mother was being shelled in, near Lyminge. Well, Lyminge in Folkestone. She suffered from Doodlebugs. The house opposite was wrecked and four people killed. But not me. I was in Canada with pupils. Taking some pupils on a navigational trip up north to an RAF station. Well, it was a station up there at North Battleford. Have I got that right? Where my brother was born. Then turn right and go down to Regina where my sister was born. Then back to the base for Regina. I mean, I found it incredible. Now, I’m not going to record any of the things I said in confidence because the Royal Air Force wouldn't like it. Can I give you a tip off? Two of my pupils say, ‘Sir, can you loop an Airspeed Oxford?’ I am not going to tell you on this recording what my reply was. So on we go. We're released from that and I’m back in England. This time told although you're RAF and you've got a commission and you're now a flight lieutenant you are going to be with the Canadians with an English crew. And the thing I thought was first rate about the Royal Air Force and probably other air forces when you're building up your crew you as a pilot with other pilots are sent to a hangar in the square, in the squadron. And you stand in a group slightly separate from the other pilots and you look across the hangar and there's one group. They're rear, they're rear gunners, they're mid-upper gunners, they're navigators, they're pilot engineers, they’re engineers, there's the front tail gunner err the front gunner and, ‘You're the captain, get your crew.’ So I looked at one bloke and I said, ‘Will you join me tail gunner?’ ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘Can I take Bert because he's a mid-upper gunner? He's a pal of mine.’ ‘Yep. Come on Bert.’ So I took them on. I looked around. There was one bloke with a large forehead. I said, ‘Would you like to be my flight engineer?’ No. Flight navigator, that's it. Because of the forehead I thought the navigator. And Bert Ashford said, ‘Certainly, would be delighted.’ So he came and joined me. But the important thing was, and I did eighteen bomber trips with them and later on Pathfinders with them, I had chosen them so I could never complain. But one of them was chronic. He was the flight engineer whose job was not in any one place. He had to walk around the aircraft while we were on our bombing trip plugging in saying, ‘Skip, fuel okay.’ Walk a bit further, ‘Skip, water okay.’ ‘Skip, altitude seems to be alright, Skip.’ But every time, wherever he was, plug in and, ‘Skip.’ And if he didn't I'd say, ‘Oh, Dick where are you?’ Silence. I haven't heard a Dick in. Nothing. So I thought the heck with this. ‘Look, crew, forgive this but I’m going to try and alert him,’ So I waggled my wings like mad. Click. ‘Oh. What's wrong, Skip?’ I said, ‘It's you that's wrong. You’ve to keep in touch.’ ‘Oh. Sorry Skip.’ So, click, ‘I’m here now. Tail gun.’ That's all right. We were flying along and we did eighteen bomber trips with not one problem. Not one. Apart from one. We were at twenty one thousand feet which is the normal altitude for bombing and suddenly I saw a dark object which was very clearly a fighter. Without any warning at all to the crew I dived like mad. Dived down to earth, and halfway down, ‘Did you want me, Skip?’ [laughs] Oh boy. I said, ‘Just avoiding an enemy aircraft for God's sake.’ ‘Well, you waggled your wings. I thought you wanted me.’ [laughs] I said, ‘What did you do before the war, Dick?’ ‘Oh, I was delivering groceries on a bicycle.’ Oh God [laughs] Anyway, our crew held together and we got away with it no trouble at all on eighteen bomber trips. So I said to the crew, ‘Look, I'd like to be a squadron leader. Wouldn't you like to be a flight sergeant instead of a sergeant?’ ‘Oh yeah.’ I said, ‘Well, if we all volunteer, and I’ve been told we can because we've done so many trips now and I have so many flying hours.’ Normally the pilot has about two hundred flying hours. I had about eighteen hundred because I'd been training people. So, yes we volunteered and we went down to head office. Is it RAF Wyton, I think? Where the head office. But this time it was with the Canadians and it was great. We did four trips. Instead of dropping bombs we dropped a white flare where our Master Pathfinder had dropped his. We would have to follow. If there were a thousand bombers bombing his flare about eight hundred would probably achieve that but by that time, fifteen minutes later than his flare, the flare would be moved by wind. So my job was to go and drop another white flare where his had been, and I can assure you it's the rottenest and most dangerous job in the Air Force. What is it? You arrive fifteen minutes after all the main body. You drop a flare which illuminates you. The fighters of the enemy are all up by then. The searchlights are all focused. The guns are all poised. And Henry arrives, ‘Can you see me?’ Sure as eggs, fifth trip, fighter on starboard, fighter on port. I’m told later by my flight engineer who survived, that ‘You yelled out, “Abandon aircraft,” as the first fighter fired across the top of your cabin. I saw your cabin and the top of your cabin was wrecked.’ He'd got the Perspex at the top and wrecked it. ‘But you ducked your head and missed the bullets which went right along the leading edge of the port wing’, which meant the port wing had no lifting power. So it just sent me on my port down to Berlin. It was our fifth trip bombing or dropping flares on Berlin, and I dived down there and just sat there. I thought well you know this is hopeless. Suddenly the whole of the cabin gave way and I was sucked out into mid-air. Thank God. The wireless operator, no, the bomb, the who was it now? Bert Ashford the yeah the wireless operator air gunner. Anyway, he said he'd heard me say, ‘Abandon aircraft,’ and he thought well what's the, and he was suffering like all of us then without oxygen, what's the point of jumping out if you've nothing to eat? So with me going down to Berlin he took off his parachute in his cabin, undid it, opened a drawer, he told me this later when I saw him, took out a bar of chocolate, put it in his tunic, put his parachute on, ‘Oh. The Skip’s gone out of that bloody great hole.’ So, he jumped where I'd gone. He said he wasn't one minute before he was in the main street in Berlin with a German on either side, ‘For you the war is over.’ And that was him captured. Me, who's always been remarkably fortunate, I don't have horrid things like that. Where do I land? Well, what's the nicest place? A park. Yes. But where? Oh, in a bush for a soft landing. You know. And my parachute was trailed all over the bush. So I pulled in my parachute. It was two o'clock in the morning. Freezing cold. January the 31st, 1944. A year and a half before the war ended. So there was me in this bush thinking well I can't start moving now because it'll be light at about six o'clock. I think I'll wait over a day ‘til it's nighttime and then I'll go for a walk. During the day two dogs wanted to get me. They were on leads and the two Germans said, ‘Kommen sie mit’, and they just walked past me. The dogs saw me but the two Germans didn't. So I just sat there waiting till they'd gone by. First night, right, Henry, you're on your own now. Now you make for the Baltic. So I walked out of the park, went through a village, that was fine. Saw a railway line, thought, ‘Well, if I get on that and the truck goes to the Baltic I’m on. Dead easy.’ And the bloody thing taxied and it landed up underneath the signal box and I had to spend the whole of that day when daylight came lying on a, an oil tube, an oil pipe frozen to bits with a guard just above me, keeping out of his way. He didn't see me. The following night they shunted a little bit, then they stopped again. So I thought well I don't like this. So I got out and walked through my second village, and I got away with that. Ah, while I was stuck in my tree wondering how to pass the time I felt around. Oh, take the zipper off your trouser leg and put the, felt there in front of your chest. Take the other one put it behind you to keep warm. Oh, and there's a little booklet. I’ve never seen that. So in it, it said, “Where have you landed?” If it's France it's, ‘Bonjour. Comment allez vous. Vous avez [unclear].’ But page four is Germany and I'd landed in Berlin, and I’m not all that bright but I thought it must be there. So it said, “Guten morgen.” “Guten tag”, and down at the bottom with no pronunciation but down at the bottom, very odd thing was it, “Ich aber in eile” or was it, ‘Ich aber as eile?’ But it says, ‘I’m in a hurry’, and it worked. I walked through my second village. Passed a German. He said, ‘guten tag.’ I said, ‘guten tag.’ ‘til the end. Blinking cul de sac in Berlin. There was a, a wall across the road, so I had to walk back passing this chap again. ‘Oh ja’ I said, ‘Ich aber in eile.’ ‘Oh ja,’ he said and off I went. So that got rid of my second night. Third night my dear friends started bombing Berlin again which meant the alarms went and everybody went down their shelters. And I’m not too bright but I thought if I go down and be sheltered with them they're not going to like me very much. So I carried on walking, then the all clear went. Out came some children, saw this bloke all alone in the main street, walked round me and captured me. So I was captured by the school children and I walked with them. They took me to the mayor's house, and I do like recording the fact that the German women in particular were charming. Here was a young man, slightly injured. They bathed my face, they gave me coffee, they gave me — what was it? Something else they gave me. Oh sandwiches, and I said to them, ‘Danke schön. This is very good of you, and I hope in England when your sons are in my country I hope my ladies give the same to your pilots as well.’ And they said, ‘Ja, it's good.’ Then the door opened. In came a pompous little drunken German officer, ‘Heil Hitler.’ Two great big thugs with him with rifles. ‘Kommen sie mit. For you the war is over. Ha ha’. So, I went outside, got into this saloon car with a gas tank above it. They put me in the back seat with a revolver into each side of me. He was in the front roaring with laughter, happy as Larry he’d got a prisoner. And off they went through this park. As it happened to the city of Berlin. And do you know I said I’ve seen the film. I remember that film. You're halfway through then I get out, go into the woods and they kill me. I know it. The guns are waiting. So I waited. They must. They didn't. Not with me. Oh no. They take me there. Put me in a cell with a radiator. Lovely. But they won't speak to me for four days then. The idea is if they do nothing with you you'll be so keen to talk you'll talk. So when my turn came to be interrogated I went out there. There was a bloke sitting behind a desk and I went in. I said, ‘Flight Lieutenant Shackleton 68185, sir.’ So he said ‘Yes. Yes. We know that.’ ‘Where was your station?’ I said, ‘68185. Flight Lieutenant Shackleton.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You're one of those. Call in the other one.’ So the other door opened and there was Red Williams. ‘Blimey, skip. Oh. Sandwiches.’ He went straight to the sandwiches, bashed into them and the officer said, ‘I think you go. We have good material here.’ So as I walked away I said, ‘You speak very good English. Where did you learn it?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I played tennis in Bournemouth before the war.’ I said, ‘Oh, lovely. Did you enjoy it?’ ‘Oh yes. Very, very pleasant. Off. Off. Yes, my friend what are you going tell me now?’ Little Red, with his sandwiches, happy as Larry.
CJ: So, Red was from your crew.
HS: Oh yeah. He was one of my crew. The only one who lived. The tail gunner and the mid-upper were shot dead, and we heard about that. They, one was never found and since the war I’ve now three times been to the three graves in Berlin of that crew. I was there this year putting not only wreaths on each one but because the squadron, when we left them with the bomber lot gave me a whisky flask, the best of British luck. I poured whisky over each grave thinking they'd prefer it. And the interesting thing this spring when I did this some Germans came up to me and they said, ‘May we have the honour of shaking your hand,’ So I said, ‘Why on earth do you want to do that for?’ ‘You killed Hitler. We didn't and we should have done.’ So that's how the Germans are treating it now.
CJ: So was that —
HS: So that, they had me away from there I, you know, went to visit them. The war was over. Oh, I ought to tell you hadn’t I. I was then sent to Stalag Luft 3 in Poland where I was there for a year and a quarter. I could go into detail but it just overdoes it a bit. I’m in the bottom of two beds. There was always one bed above the other and when I got to mine, twelve of us in one room with, with an oven in the middle for cooking food. Jolly nice blokes, all RAF officers. The Red Cross were wonderful. We got food and we got books and things. We were treated well. And I studied geology. And it was all very pleasant. The only thing I didn't like too much above me every morning I would see “Pilot Officer Buchanan, 17 Liberton Street, Glasgow. WC2.” And that was his name. And I said, ‘Why have you put your name on all of these boards?’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘If you don't put your name on they'll pinch them for the tunnels. And they give you a string. Oh no. They're not having my boards.’ So, I know his name. Way after the war, years later, married. We were in Glasgow and with my wife I went to 17 Glasgow, Wimpole Street Glasgow WC2 and out came George. Wonderful. He was the chief librarian in Glasgow. Anyway, that was me there. And I'd been there fourteen, fifteen months; suddenly the Germans who were very elderly old boys, the guards, one was called Fingers because he'd only two fingers. They were, you know old crocks really, but they had a rifle and knew how to fire it. And suddenly there was an announcement, ‘Raus. Raus. You have two hours to go. The Russians are advancing. Anything you carry you can have but two hours no more here.’ So after two hours with food and one darling, I’ve got it upstairs, a darling little bible which was given to me when I was in Canada by a cousin who said, ‘You keep this, it will help you.’ On every bombing trip and every long dangerous trip of any sort, car or whatever, I’ve always taken this little bible. And I also take the whisky flask. So there are two things I’ve always remembered and are still with me. Anyway, we start marching and I have a great sense of humour. I turned to one of the guards and I said, ‘Is that rifle heavy?’ ‘Ja,’ he said, ‘Me carry it?’ I said. ‘No. Maybe later. But right now I think I carry it.’ [laughs] And we had to make our way a hundred miles to Berlin, but part of the journey we did on a train. But we got to a camp and in that camp it was horrific. There were thirty, I’ve got it on the screen to show, I think it was thirty-eight thousand prisoners on the outskirts of Berlin behind, behind two rows of barbed wire. No hope of getting out. I saw a pile of potatoes. A man went to take one and he was shot dead. So I thought, ‘Right. You're not having potatoes lad.’ So I just wondered what the devil are we going to do? There were Poles there, there were nationalities. There were French, British, Canadians all stuck in this huge camp on the other side of the river from Berlin. And then a Russian tank appeared and on it was a Russian woman machine gunner. She was on the top of it. The tank went through the barbed wire, went along the inside and out again and four hundred of us got out immediately, crossed the bridge and was in American hands. Two lunches, one after the other. When I’d finished my second lunch all by myself, where the others went I don't know, but I was there and one of the Americans said, ‘Say, what were you flying?’ So I said, ‘A Lancaster.’ ‘Oh. Would you like me to take you to the Lancs?’ So, ‘Yeah.’ ‘Get in the back of my van, chum. Got your two loaves of bread? ‘Yep.’ So in the back of that he drove down an autoroute onto an RAF station, said, ‘Say fellas, I’ve got one of your pilots here.’ They said, ‘Great. We're going back to England this afternoon. Would you like — ' I said , ‘Would I like?’ I was back in England that afternoon. Wasn't that fabulous? With nobody else, there were no other prisoners or anything [laughs] and I’ve often said if I can meet that German (Russian) machine gunner I would really like to appreciate what she did. She let us out. So there you are. That gets me home. Pictures of the village having celebratory meals. What do you do? You go to university because you hadn't gone before. So I went to Leeds University and to the first meeting there I went to the Freshers’ Ball and able for the first four months or so to wear my RAF uniform. But all the competitive males were in civvies aged eighteen. In walks the president with his lady friend and says, ‘You shouldn't be in here, you fellas. You're supposed to be in the ball dancing.’ So I said, ‘I will if I could dance with this young lady.’ And the young lady said, ‘That is not the idea. I am with the president.’ Who did I marry? Her. Took three years but working on it, Bobby White married me. Which was very nice. And she said, ‘Well, I’ve got my honours degree. I’m going to Downing Street.’ And she, we always used to joke in our family that we all suffered from BO — Bobby Organizing. She was a very positive lass. And down in Downing Street the head man there said, ‘I don't understand it, I thought we had some people from Poland.’ They said, ‘Oh yes. Yes. Oh, they've all been sent off to Bradford, I think it is.’ ‘Well, who sent them?’ ‘Oh, this young lady down below.’ And they, ‘Bloody hell. Call her up.’ He says, ‘I’m running this place, not you.’ Anyway, Bobby was down there for a year and she said, ‘When you get your degree I will then marry you.’ I failed the degree. So her parents said, ‘He's failed the degree. You don't need to marry him.’ ‘Oh no,’ she said, ‘I’m marrying a man. Not a piece of paper.’ So we did get married, and a year later having been married to Bobby with a son I then got my degree. It took a bit of doing but I got it. So there you are. That's the end of my story I think.
CJ: Well, what, what work did you do after the war?
HS: Oh, my brother was a civil engineer. My father was one. And it's a lovely career. I enjoyed it thoroughly. And just for a joke I say, ‘Well, I’ve wrecked a dam so I’ve built a dam. I’ve wrecked an oil refinery so I’ve built an oil refinery, you know. I’ve wrecked many houses and I built several hundred.’ But it's been a good life. My wife loved it as well, and when our children went to boarding school we travelled the world. And I couldn't recommend a better career. So there we are. That's it.
CJ: And how do you feel Bomber Command were treated after the war?
HS: Well, you didn't want to make a fuss. You were glad to be alive. Five of your crew were dead. But yes, they were the glamour boys. And we just had to say, ‘Oh well, if I'd been a Spitfire pilot I'd have been one of them.’ But we were, we kept quiet. And then somebody said, ‘Look, have you got a few hundred quid, old boy?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ So I said, ‘What would you like?’ They said, ‘Well, two hundred and fifty quid. Something.’ You know. Two. What was it? Two hundred and [pause] two thousand five hundred quid I think it was. I said, ‘Would that be okay?’ ‘Yes. We may be back for more. But if we can get all Bomber Command to give us that we can have our own monument. And we will have one.’ We got one and the Queen came to open it. So we said there we are, we've got one now. But we had to arrange our own. It's fair enough. They were the glamour boys. And I mean a lot of ours were killed too. It's just the way of life.
CJ: Can I just recap on your squadron? So, your first squadron where you did eighteen ops at Middleton St George was 419.
HS: Moose squadron. Yes. A Canadian Moose squadron.
CJ: Yeah. Okay. And which aircraft were you flying there?
HS: Oh, Halifaxes.
CJ: Halifaxes.
HS: Which I think you'd probably like me to say, I mean it was the only bomber I knew. I’d been in a Whitley and I’d been in a little trainer, the Airspeed Oxford. So, you know, the Halifax was okay but when I got onto the Lancaster it was lively. It was airborne. It was mobile. With the Halifax it was a tank. You got airborne, you drop your bomb and you come home. There we are. And then I went to another squadron which is also Canadian, and they were, the Canadians were very good. The only thing is on my fourth Pathfinder trip one of the things they did in the Air Force stations almost every night, they cut us off from the outside world by telephone at 6pm. They didn't just do it when we were bombing. They did it most nights so that the Germans didn't know what we were doing. If they only did it when they were bombing it would be useful. So 6pm couldn't ring home. And there was another night, 6pm, ‘Oh you’re wanted in the squadron room.’ You go in there. There are the rest of the air crew all with our leaders being told what we're doing. And, now what was it? The Australian who was the group captain, Don — Harris I think it was. Was it? I think it was that. Anyway, he was the officer commanding. The Australian Group Captain. Gordon Ramsay? Oh lord. This is bad for this isn't it? Let's say Donald Harrison. Hope for it. Anyway, he said, ‘Any questions?’ So, I said, ‘Yes. I’ve been on four trips and this is our fifth with Pathfinders and we go on the darkest of nights with no lights. Surely there's a risk of collision.’ ‘Oh yes. Yes. I expect to lose twenty of you out of a thousand but I can assure you if you had lights on I'd lose the whole bloody lot of you. Any other question?’ Yeah. I said, oh thanks a lot.
CJ: And did you have any adventures?
HS: Don Harris, I think it was. What?
CJ: Did you have any adventures with the Canadians on the squadron when you weren't on operations?
HS: Oh, you're talking about the car, aren't you? Yes. My darling mother. When I was in the Air Force, after I'd gone home on leave once, she said, ‘Darling, I can't get any fuel for our car’, and it's an Austin 7. It's BV 3252, “Barkis is willing”, I call it. ‘Would you like it, because in the Air Force you probably get some fuel.’ So I drove from Rhodes Minnis down in Kent all the way up, way up to Middleton St George. And the Canadians were thrilled when they saw it. They had never seen a car so small. I was in bed one night in the squadron, with the Halifaxes and they said, ‘Shack, I think you better come downstairs.’ Two o'clock in the morning. Past the lesser rank, into the main lounge. Mother's car was there dripping oil on the carpet. The wing commander was in the front seat pressing the horn which was damn nearly flat. An HP Sauce bottle in the radiator. A picture off the wall in the back seat and the squadron, in pairs all behind saying, ‘Tally ho.’ And I said, ‘Oh, great,’ I said, ‘You will put it back in the morning.’ ‘Oh yeah. We'll put it back in the morning.’ The following morning the group captain in charge of the squadron said, ‘Would that chap Shackleton come and see me.’ So, I went in. I said, ‘Flight Lieutenant Shackleton.’ So he said, ‘I take it you know there's a war on.’ So, I said, ‘Yes. I understand that.’ ‘Well, will you see that bloody Austin 7 is out of the hangar. It's getting far more attention than any of the Halifaxes. Out.’ ‘Sorry sir’. And that was that. But mother's car made us a very happy crew. We would go pub crawling when we weren’t bombing. It was a lovely present from her and we never damaged it. That's it I think.
CJ: Well, thank you very much for talking to us today.
HS: Blathering but isn't it a —
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Henry Leslie Shackleton
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Chris Johnson
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-29
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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AShackletonHL170629
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00:39:25 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Canadian Air Force
Description
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Henry Shackleton listened to Chamberlain’s speech on the radio and hoped to be a Spitfire pilot. He began his training and was selected as a flying instructor and was posted to Canada. On his return to the UK he was posted to his operational squadron 419 at RAF Middleton St George. He then went on to join the Pathfinders. He was shot down over Berlin and became a prisoner of war at Stalag Luft 3.
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Julie Williams
Chris Johnson
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
Poland--Żagań
England--Durham (County)
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
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1944-01-31
405 Squadron
419 Squadron
aircrew
crewing up
final resting place
Halifax
killed in action
Lancaster
Magister
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Middleton St George
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1036/11408/AMorganVT170908.2.mp3
12d992549bbfd624a2cc3b28fbdb104e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Morgan, Vernon Thomas
V T Morgan
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Vernon Thoas Morgan (1921 - 2020, 1145635 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer and pilot with 44 and 619 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Morgan, VT
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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This interview is being held by Claire Monk with Vernon Morgan on Friday the 7th September 2017 on behalf of the International Bomber Command.
CM: Right, so, when we spoke earlier you mentioned that you were born and you grew up in Cardiff.
VM: That’s right.
CM: [Pause] And you are an only child.
VW: I am.
CM: What can you tell me about that time?
VM: Well it’s interesting, only child, but next door to me, next door but one, I had a family that had three sons and a daughter and we more or less lived with each other; as far as I’m concerned they were nearly brothers and sisters really. So I was never lonely. I went to school in Cardiff, I went to primary school and an elementary school and then I went to Cathays High School, where I did all the normal things, got my matriculation certificate and then started to look for a job. Sat the civil service exam, very fortunate, nineteen thousand sat it and one thousand were successful, and I passed, and I was in these days you didn’t have any choice about argy-bargy you were told where to go [emphasis]. So I was told to go to RA ROF, Royal Ordnance Factory, Hereford to start work, and off I went. Went into digs there, stayed in somebody’s house and I went in the accounts department of the Royal Ordnance Factory. And that’s where I stayed until the war came. And then I decided to volunteer before I was called up, and I decided I wanted to go in the air force. I had horrible feelings about ground warfare in the army which I didn’t fancy and I didn’t like the sea, so I said well the alternative’s the air force so I joined up. And the only thing they could tell me I could do was a wireless operator. So I said so be it. So I went into the RAF, I went into Blackpool on er August Bank Holiday Monday I was called up there, and in whatever date that was, forgive me [rustle of paper] I’ll look. It was in August 1941 and I went to Blackpool and I started on a wireless operators course and eventually I decided that I’d volunteer for aircrew while I was there. Big thing that because you became elite [emphasis] then, and you got a white flash in your cap and I was accepted, and that started my aircrew training. Um, which I eventually was moved from Blackpool down to the aircrew recruiting centre in Lloyds in London, Lords cricket ground which is where you started all everything to do with aircrew. And that was beginning of my travelling to be a pilot and I went to I don’t know what at Blackpool, I did a lot of medicals, got eyesight and heart and everything, you know you had to make sure you were hundred per cent fit and then I went to a little aerodrome called Booker where I flew a Tiger Moth. And after about eight hours I went solo and they said right that’s it, you’re accepted now for full pilot training. So that was it, and I then waited about a bit, and [rustles of paper] checking on my on my log book to make sure I get my sequences right otherwise I’ll get everything wrong. Yes, for some reason then, I think I told you earlier, I went to RAF Hemswell, for four months and then I went to RAF Cottesmore. What I did there I’ve no idea [emphasis] and I couldn’t find out, so I was, I presume I had some ground training, cause they you did everything. You did meteorology, principles of flying and all sorts of things. I assume I did things like that and then that’s when I went to Booker for my aircrew check to see I was suitable and I was, and then I was waiting for a posting. And you got moved around quite a bit. I went to Brighton, in a hotel. Erm, my first bit of the war happened there [emphasis] because we were doing some again some class in a building on the front which they’d obviously commandeered and we were sitting there doing whatever it is we were doing [chuckle] and a German fighter came across and strafed us so we all dived down on the floor [laugh] underneath the sort of desk and I thought oh yeah, there is a war on you know, and my first sort of indication and then eventually in February ’43 I got on a transport ship; hell on earth I’d call that, um it you know you were in hammocks, there weren’t enough hammocks to go round, always a scramble to find a hammock to sleep on. You were slept down in the bowels of the ship, long tables and the hammocks were strung up over it in the morning after we had to clear up the sick: lots of people were sick and and you had about you know twenty people or so on this table and one of them had to go and get the food from the galley so you trotted off, ship rocking, you trying to carry bowls of soup and things slopping about, and bring it down and serve the people on the table. It was pretty grim, and you know everything was overcrowded, very uncomfortable and you were told always to be ready to put life jackets on in case you were attacked so on. So, I wouldn’t call it a very pleasurable journey and eventually we arrived at Durban. And there we were greeted by cars hooting, people waving and the lady in white who was a traditional well known thing at Durban, who sang a welcome to you as you arrived. And er so we eventually disembarked and went to a camp – Clarewood Camp - where we were absolutely delighted. We could buy bananas and pears and oranges and apples and things we’d never seen at home and going into Durban and having bars of chocolate and going to the canteens there and having bacon and eggs and things, cost us about a shilling I think. So this was real real luxury life there. And then was posted to a little place called Nigel where we carried on with our flying training on Tiger Moths. And after we had finished all the trying flying training there on the Moths, um we went to another little drome called Potchefstroom [background noise] where we finished our flying and then we were posted then to 21 Air School at Kimberley. And this was a place where we were going to do all our flying and get our wings. And er I flew Oxfords there and you had a ‘cope’ sort of training with you. I had someone called Dick Teager who became the best man at my wedding actually and we trained together in the Oxford. Er, did usual things learning all about the flying and night flying and instrument flying, lots of time on the link trainer and er were there any adventures there? Well, there was one, [emphasis] yes, my co-pilot Dick Teager and I were on a navigation exercise and I was flying and he was doing the navigating, and after a little while there was a bang [emphasis] and the aircraft started to shudder. I ‘What the hell’s that?’ ‘Oh no I don’t know,’ he said. ‘Well something’s wrong,’ I said, ‘the aircraft is is shuddering,’ I said. ‘Go and see, find anything that’s loose or missing or something.’ I said. We had no idea really what the hell was going on. So he got up and he sort of crawled back in the aeroplane. He said ‘I can’t see anything wrong’ ‘I don’t like this I think we’d better go back and land,’ you see. I said then, and then suddenly there was another BANG! [emphasis] and I thought oh gawd and the aircraft was quiet and steady and I said ‘That’s very odd’ so I said ‘Well, I can’t see there’s any problem, it’s still flying all right.’ I tried the controls and I said ‘I think we’ll finish the exercise’ so he said ‘Yes okay,’ so off we went and did our exercise and then came back and landed at Kimberley and as we pulled up on to the you know, tarmac there to park the aircraft, one of the ground said [Shout] ‘What’s wrong with your left entry, your port engine there?’ [shout] I said ‘What do you mean?’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘you’ve only got half a propeller!’ and he, I looked out and sure enough the propeller had two ends knocked off and I said ‘Well, I don’t understand that.’ Then I said, ‘Well what happened is one end came off that unbalanced things, set up a pressure, a tension and the other end came off to balance it and all was well.’ So then I had to appear before, he and I had to appear before the commanding officer. ‘Where have you been low flying?’ I said, ‘We haven’t been low.’ ‘Well how did you lose your propeller?’ I said ‘Look I don’t know.’ But, well he took a bit of persuading that we hadn’t done something wrong, anyway that was the one bit of excitement and [banging] yeah, the flying went alright we were you know spent a good time there, went to the cinema in the camp every Saturday and you know I said it was quite a good life really. We were. there was no sign of war there of course. Er we met girls in Kimberley, actually they were friends of people back at England who they told us to go and see them. So we went, and we went to the family and had meals with them and went out with them, and I said it was quite a good life and then eventually the day came when I got my wings, you know and Brigadier Baston, the commanding officer, pinned the wings on my chest and that was it. There was a little bit of argy-bargy about well what you do now and I said ‘Well, I presume I am going to go home now’ cause I said I had my eye on, I wanted to get back home, I had a girl waiting for me, and they said ‘Well you’ve done very well on navigating and you’ve done very well on instrument flying we think we could post you down to Capetown and you can become a navigator instructor.’ ‘Oh I don’t want to do that’ I said, I this wasn’t me being bold about wanting to fight the Germans, it was me just wanted to get back to England to see Cynthia. So ‘Oh no I don’t want that,’ well, ‘Also we could give you a posting to go to Bomber Command. To Coastal Command.’ ‘Oh no, I don’t want to do any of that, I want to get back to Britain, I want to go onto bombers over there you see.’ Anyway eventually after a lot of palaver, they agreed that I’d be posted back on bombers to England. So then again we had to wait and er for transport and eventually we got on a ship the Orontes I think it was called [cough] no this we did, that was our, we got on a ship that was a, a Polish sort of ship. It wasn’t a very nice ship and we went through the Suez Canal and we dropped off at Suez. We had to stay there for a while to get another ship. Suez was a funny area it was a sort of a desert and I can remember we had to wee in big funnels in the sand and there were warnings that er ‘Do not buy lemonade from local pedlars,’ because the lemonade is not very good it’s made up of urine and Nile water [laugh]. So anyway, we had and after that we got another boat, the Orontes and were on our way back home. And now this is a funny thing too. I can’t remember what port we arrived at whether it was Liverpool or Southampton, it was just a place that we were going to get off the boat and back home and we then we went to Harrogate which was a sort of holding centre, stayed in a hotel there and then I was posted to Perth which was an elementary flying training school with Tiger Moths. I don’t know going down a grade now, back on Tiger Moths, the idea was getting us back up familiarised with this country because over in South Africa you had big wide open spaces and if you saw a town you knew what is was ‘cause there wasn’t another one for hundreds of miles over here of course it was a conglomerate of things and you had to sort of start getting used to the different terrain and the fact that you had a problem knowing where you were so we, we spent some time at Perth and er after that I went to a senior NCO’s school at Whitley Bay. Now again I find it very difficult to know exactly and I can’t find out, I’ve looked it up on the internet, but you don’t get much joy, it was known as the commando course, and all I can remember doing there was scaling a cliff in Whitley Bay! [laugh] So er this was at the time of er the invasion of Europe in April ‘44 and after that, we went back to Harrogate. It then turned out that they didn’t know what to do with us; they had too many pilots and not enough aeroplanes. So we were having to get channelled into doing useful things. A colleague of mine went and drove engines, locomotives on shunting duties erm they couldn’t, they said we haven’t got any spaces on squadrons for you we can’t don’t know what to do so I was posted to another elementary flying school at Derby and from there they sent me out to a little aerodrome called Abbotts Bromley which was a subsidiary of Derby and I think I became the commanding officer there, because I was, it was a little outpost of Derby and there were about a dozen trainee pilots there just starting, and me. And, I had to, we had one aeroplane, Tiger Moth there and the instructors used to fly over from Derby every day and do their training with the lads. This was fine. I, it was a little aerodrome, I was in charge there, one of the trainees brought me a cup of tea in the morning, There was a local woman who acted as a chef there and she cooked me my meals in my own private little room. I thought this is the life, I hope they’ll forget my where I am and lose my records, I could stay here for the rest of the war! So I stayed there and it was quite good, you know, I used to have a little duty in the morning I just had to put out the T to show the way the wind was blowing, although why you did that when they had a wind sock and you could see which way the wind was blowing I don’t know. I kept my hand in flying and the instructors occasionally said ‘Come on, we better do some advanced flying, keep you in trim,’ so they came up with me and we did aerobatics and things and it was very good I, I er had quite a nice time there and erm I did something unorthodox there in the sense I would say well you know I’d like a weekend down in Cardiff to see my parents, so that’s all right you can fly down there in the Tiger Moth, can I? So anyway I [laugh] got in the Tiger Moth one Friday and set off for Cardiff you see. I had to land at Worcester and get refuelled, then I went off towards Cardiff and the weather came quite bad and I thought ‘Oh my gosh’ and then as I got up near Cardiff or up by Newport I could see all these barrage balloons with their cables I thought gawd I need to be careful don’t go too near cos I’m sure this is an unorthodox flight that I shouldn’t be doing, I’ll be in trouble, So anyway I managed to avoid the barrage balloons and I got to Cardiff airport and course it had one runway and it was right across wind and there was quite a strong wind as I can’t land on that, cross wind on a runway I’m only used to landing into wind on grass I don’t think I like that at all. So I flew over I flew into wind cross, low down on across towards the grass and waggled my wings you see, to say this is what I want to do you see. A red very light came on from the control tower, ‘Oh god,’ I thought ‘what’s that for?’ Does that mean that the ground is too rough or there’s potholes, or something and I can’t land there? I don’t know where else to go. [laugh] I won’t have enough fuel to go anywhere else apart from which, you didn’t have navigation aids I don’t know where else there is, so I’ve gotta land here. Well I flew round and I flew down and I picked a different spot fly into wind and waggle my wings as this is what I’ve gotta do: another red very light. ‘Oh god,’ so I thought, ‘Well, I’ve got to land here.’ So I turned around and did another circuit, came in and I got quite close down, see if I could see potholes or anything, I could, well I’ve gotta land I’ve got no alternative, I just hope it’s all right [laugh]. So I landed on the grass into wind everything okay, didn’t tip over, oh thank goodness for that, so I taxied round, back up to the tarmac in front of the control tower and switched off. And got my flying kit off and up into the control tower where there was a sergeant sitting there smoking his cigarette and as I went in, he said ‘Hello mate’ [bang]. I said ‘Hello,’ I said, ‘what was all that fuss about; what did you fire a red very at me for?’ ‘Oh I was just greeting you,’ he said. ‘What do you mean, greeting me?’ I said. ‘You fired a red very I was trying to say I want to land on the grass and you were indicating it was dangerous.’ ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘No I was just greeting.’ ‘Well,’ I said ‘why didn’t you fire a bloody green?’ ‘Oh we’ve run out of those!’ he said. [laugh] So anyway that was all right, So anyway I had a nice weekend with my parents and flew back to Abbotts Bromley. Well, that wasn’t the end then, I then got shunted back to Harrogate, this is where you got while they tried to sort out what to do with you. And then they decided they’d post me to a place called RAF Madley which was near Hereford, that’s all right, as it was near my fiancé lived Hereford so thought that’s okay. So I went about and there they were flying Proctors training wireless operators and I was going to be a stooge pilot going up and flying wireless operators while they were doing whatever they do and so that was my assignation there. So I got onto a Proctor and I had my familiarisation flight to make sure I knew what to do with one and that was okay, so I then reported; I cycled away from Madley into Hereford, saw Cynthia and that was fine. And then I took my first official flight as a Proctor pilot with my group of wireless ops and their instructor, and the instructor was saying to me, because obviously they do navigation fixes and things, ‘Fly on such and such a course,’ you see. Yes, okay I did that, and then they say, ‘Now change course and fly somewhere.’ So I did that. And then they said, ‘Now do something else,’ so I flew that, did that, and then after a while they said, ‘Right, well the exercise is finished now, you can go back to the drome,’ see. I looked out of the window - where the hell am I? Cause I said I’d been so busy concentrating this is my first flight as pilot with these wireless ops on flying where they wanted me on the direction I was concentrating on that I hadn’t not looking where the hell I was going and look out the window and thought I I hadn’t any idea where the hell I am. And of course you looked down and it was just a conglomeration of towns and railway lines and you hadn’t a clue where you were, oh gawd, so well if I fly west, I’ll hit the coast and then I can see where I am, so I did that, and yes oh yes! I can see now and I’ve an idea now what I and I knew what course I had to fly to get back to Madley, which I did. Got back rather late, with a very irate duty pilot in the caravan, you know, that has to see you home, was being delayed going to lunch and very annoyed, so I landed there and I wasn’t very popular. I didn’t say I’d got lost, but, ‘What the hell are you so late,’ ‘Well,’ I said ‘These exercises take time,’ anyway that was my adventure at Madley, so I was still flying there so thought this is all right too I’m having a good old war, this is not too bad what can happen next? A posting came in. You’re going to St. Athan. St. Athan, near Cardiff, oh that’s not bad, that’s near home too, my parents are there I could live out I thought this is turning quite good this war, you know. Not as bad as I thought it would be. And er, it was a technical school and I thought what am I going there for? So I got to St. Athan and they said ‘You’re on a flight engineer’s course.’ ‘I’m on a what?’ ‘A flight engineer’s course.’ I said ‘What what am I on that for?’ ‘Well we’re short of flight engineers and we may be able to get you to a squadron as a flight engineer.’ ‘I don’t want to go to a squadron I’m a pilot!’ [emphasis] ‘Oh yeah, well you’ll still be a pilot.’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘this all sounds a bit fishy to me.’ Anyway I had no alternative. I then did a course on the Merlin engine. Now I’m the least technical minded person you can imagine. And yes, theoretically, I learnt about the Merlin engine and I passed whatever it was there and they said ‘Right that’s it then.’ And er. ‘We’ll send you off and we hope you can get to a squadron.’ ‘Oh, all right.’ I then went to this place RAF Balderton. Now, I have no idea what I did there. I was there from er 29th of December 1944 to the 4th of January. Not a very long period, I have no idea what I did there. I can’t remember. All I can remember is it was perishing cold [emphasis]. Absolutely freezing and we had one of these stoves in the Nissen hut, burning wood. So all I all I slept in my flying clothes because it was so cold, and we found some old chairs and broke ‘em up and burnt them to keep warm that’s all I remember about Balderton. I don’t know why [emphasis] I was there, what [emphasis] I did there or anything else. And the next thing I was posted to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Swinderby. Oh, at last we’re getting somewhere near some flying now. There, I was introduced to a Lancaster and I did some training on a Lanc. I did circuits and bumps and got used to flying a Lanc, you see, and again [emphasis] I cannot remember exactly how I got crewed up. I, I’m not even sure exactly where it happened. I know that normally what happened with crewing is that was they crewed up everyone nearly except the flight engineer who joined at the last minute, I don’t know why exactly. But, anyway, I must have joined up and I went into a crew, an interesting crew because there was no Englishman in it. There was me a Welshman, there was a Dane, a Swede, and Canadians and that was my cosmopolitan crew you see. Okay, so be it. So anyway we finished all our training at Swinderby and at last, we got posted to a squadron which er was to Strubby where it was, or was it? [background noises] 619 Squadron at Strubby. And they didn’t know quite what to make of me. ‘Well, you’re down to fly as a flight engineer: you’re a pilot.’ I said ‘Yes, I am a pilot. And I’m not a flight engineer,’ I said ‘First of all I haven’t got a flight engineer badge, Secondly I haven’t got a flight engineer log book, I’ve only got a pilot’s log book.’ ‘Well, of course, you’re a pilot. You’ve got to have a pilot slot, you’ll be a second pilot. And doing flight engineer duties, but you’re a second pilot, that’s what you are.’ And the everybody wanted me to be their flight engineer cause they had a second pilot who could fly the bloody thing. [laugh] So anyway it was quite interesting I had to keep on insisting I was a pilot I’m not a flight engineer, I’m a pilot doing some flight engineer duties you see. And um so that’s how it was. So I then flew with 619 Squadron, and erm and that’s where I did my op, um well, I no there were, well, backtrack a little bit. While I was at Swinderby we got sent on what was called Operation Sweepstake on two nights, which was going flying to Strasburg. Now this is all a bit vague in my memory but I subsequently found that what Operation Sweepstake was was a diversionary flight to deceive the Germans that that’s where the raid was gonna be and they diverted fighters to you, you see. I thought, oh I see, so we’re the bait are we, we’re the ones that attracted the fighters while the others do their raid you see. So that was twice and I did say to the CO I said, ‘Is that counted as an operation?’ ‘Well yeah,’ he said, ‘it was over enemy territory [loud laugh] and you were being shot at’ and so on, so he said ‘I think [emphasis] it’s an operation but it may be a half [emphasis] an op.’ So I did two of those so I don’t know whether they count as two ops or one op, but anyway that’s it. And er then my first op at um at Strubby was a daylight raid over Germany, we were bombing some troop concentrations and this was quite a big operation, you know. We joined up with the Americans flew over there and um [background noise] we got over the target, you know, bomb aimer said right you know, gave his instructions and I looked out of the window and I could see these bombs coming down, like hail stones, and I thought bloomin’ ‘eck [loud laugh] never mind about flying straight and level, what about these bloody bombs, let’s dodge those, I said and then I suddenly thought well at night you won’t see those but I wonder how many people got hit by bombs coming down from their plane. I said there were these things coming down like hail stones round you, so er anyway that we did the bombing operations and came back home, and then I got posted to 44 Squadron which was at, erm, Spilsby. Now, and then, after that I got posted to Mepal, which was also 44 Squadron, and then finally to Mildenhall. Now, while we were at Spilsby and Mepal we did these trips Exodus, where we brought back prisoners of war from Germany. We also did some engine ferrying out to Italy, to Bari, and we also brought back troops from the Far East to bring them home, so we were doing those sort of jobs. I was getting in, I was flying by then, with the commanding officer of 44 Squadron, Wing Commander Birch and he had chosen me, I know why ‘cause he said ‘Well I’ve got you, because you’re a pilot,’ and he said ‘I can have a nap while you can fly the bloody thing,’ so I said, okay, that’s okay with me as long as he said I recognise you’re a pilot not a flight engineer, I said ‘No, if you’re banking on me being very good if something goes wrong with the engine,’ I said, ‘I’m useless, I’m hopeless technically,’ I said. ‘It’s just a ploy to get me into a squadron,’ I said. ‘That’s all right, but I want you in my crew,’ and he said, ‘we’re designated to go into Tiger Force,’ which was going out to the Far East and he said we we’ll be switching to Lincolns, and he said ‘that has two pilots anyway’ so he said I’m going to have you with me.’ So I said ‘oh that suits me that’s fine thank you.’ So we did these trips flying prisoners of war, bringing troops back, flying engines out to Italy and all these other jobs and er we kept doing that and then I got we got moved to Mildenhall and there we were going to switch to Lincolns ready for Tiger Force to go out to the Far East which I must admit I wasn’t looking forward to, and then, they dropped the atom bomb, and it was all over. And I thought [bang] thank god for that, so I didn’t really have any more then I was just left at Mildenhall, did the odd flight in the Lincoln, the odd flight in the Lancaster, all the year, the crew that I had at before the end of the European war disappeared, the Canadians all went, and the Dane, well they all went back home and I had a hotch potch of different crews. The only thing that was constant was Wing Commander Birch and me and that’s how we carried out till the end of the war when I got demobbed in er June 1946 and so ended my life in the RAF and I, oh I did forget to tell you [laugh] one of the things after I came back from South Africa, was that within a fortnight, Cynthia and I got married. I’d been sending her cake ingredients from South Africa ‘cause you could send parcels home, getting round the rationing so all the stuff had been sent home and the cake had been made, so we got married in 1944 and while I was at Mildenhall waiting to be demobbed she came up there and got a flat together and we stayed there until we were demobbed and went back home. We went to live in Cardiff, and I got back into the civil service and stayed there. I got various postings in the civil service and so on and I ended up in the civil service in 1981 when you got retired bang [emphasis] on sixty, 17th of August 1981, finished, retired. And that was it really so, I suppose that’s my history. [laugh]
CM: That’s amazing [laugh]
VM: All right?
CM: That’s fantastic! And now you’ve come back to Lincoln.
VM: And now I’ve come back to Lincoln. I was Lincoln, I mean I, I went back to Cardiff to start with and then I got promoted and went to London, and after that I went to the Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell and I stayed there. Then I went back to London, to Surrey and that’s where you know I retired. And I lived in various places in London suburbs, and um until we got older and we went into a retirement establishment in Oxford, and then er then Linda and Joe said ‘Well, you know, you’re getting on a bit now as well and might need some care, so come up and live near us,’ which is what we did and here we are. And this is where we are. My wife died three years ago, four years ago now and that’s it really and the air force has reclaimed me in a way ‘cause I had nothing to do with them until I came up to Lincoln. [Pause] How’s that – anything else?
CM: No, it’s been fantastic. Thank you. [laugh] Yes, amazing. Would, if you had the opportunity, would you fly in a Lanc again – not that I can promise that of course.
VM: What do you mean, would I fly in a Lanc?
CM: Would you go up in a Lancaster again if you had the opportunity?
VM: Oh yes of course. Well I mean it’s very interesting the Lanc at East Kirkby,
CM: Yes.
VM: Just Jane, I went there.
CM: Yes.
VM: I had a taxy in it you see. ‘Course they all suddenly said oh well, he used to be in one of these, and fly them I got very embarrassed because people started queuing up to get me autograph and things I thought bloomin’ ‘eck I wish they wouldn’t do that, and it was very interesting because when I got in the Lanc and walking up the fuselage and then you had to get into the cockpit and there’s a big main spar across. Well, I couldn’t, I mean I had a job, I needed a crane to get over that I couldn’t get had to be helped over it, I go one leg up I said I don’t remember this being here at all before, because as a youngster, you know, I said I don’t remember, I didn’t know there was such a thing there [chuckle] I said I can’t get over the damn thing, I said it’s a major job to climb over this to get into the cockpit so it’s quite funny really. And um yeah anyway, there we are. I haven’t actually flown [emphasis] in one but I’ve been [emphasis] in one and I’ve had a taxy in one and you know, I’ve said to Andy Millican, the CO, of BBMF, I said you know if the opportunity arises while I’m here some time I said I’m ready for a trip. [laugh]
CM: I can imagine. Thank you.
VM: All right?
CM: It’s been amazing. I’m going to hit the pause button now.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Vernon Thomas Morgan
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Claire Monk
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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AMorganVT170908
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00:41:33 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
South Africa
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
England--Suffolk
Wales--Cardiff
Description
An account of the resource
Vernon Morgan, from Cardiff, joined the civil service working at the Royal Ordnance Factory, volunteering for the RAF in 1941. After pilot training in South Africa he returned to several different roles: CO of a satellite aerodrome, pilot for wireless operator training. Retrained as flight engineer, he was posted to 619 and then 44 Squadrons, flying operations including bombing runs and repatriation of troops/POWs. He returned to the civil service after the war.
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Anne-Marie Watson
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1944
1946
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
44 Squadron
619 Squadron
aircrew
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lincoln
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
Oxford
pilot
Proctor
RAF Madley
RAF Mildenhall
RAF St Athan
RAF Strubby
RAF Swinderby
Tiger Moth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1186/18578/SWatsonC188489v1-1.2.pdf
41dce93a36a706458878ffce711dc143
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1186/18578/SWatsonC188489v1-2.1.pdf
78bceef44f30c4e1a4f2d533cd690cd9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Watson, Clifford
C Watson
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. Two oral history interviews with Flying Officer Clifford Watson DFC (1922 - 2018, 1384956, 188489 Royal Air Force), a memoir, his service and release book, and a scrapbook containing photographs and documents. He flew operations as an air gunner with 150 and 227 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Clifford Watson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-06-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Watson, C
Transcribed document
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Transcription
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Photograph
JUST ANOTHER TAILEND CHARLIE
CLIFF WATSON DFC
HUNTINGDON
JUNE 1989
[page break]
[underlined] SEQUENCE [/underlined]
[underlined] File [/underlined] [underlined] Page [/underlined] [underlined] Location [/underlined]
[underlined] GROUP O [/underlined]
D 3 Joining up [underlined] AC2 [/underlined]
4 Babbacombe - 11 ITW Newquay [underlined] LAC [/underlined]
8 Troopship HMT Mooltan - Freetown - Capetown
G 7 Southern Rhodesia - Bulawayo [underlined] LAC [/underlined]
8 EFTS Belvedere Scrubbed TIGER MOTHS [underlined] AC2 [/underlined]
10 A/G Course, Moffat ANSONS [underlined] LAC-Sgt [/underlined]
11 Polsmoor Transit Camp [underlined] Sgt [/underlined]
J25 14 HMT Monarch of Bermuda
15 West Kirby - Bournmouth
17 25 OTU Finningley - Bircotes - WELLINGTONS
18 30 OTU Hixon - Sieghford
19 Leaflets to Paris
Wedding
J26 21 West Kirby - HMT Johan Van Vanderbilt
K1 23 Algiers - Blida - 150 Sqdn WELLINGTONS
K2 27 Fontaine Chaude (Batna) [underlined] FIt/Sgt [/underlined]
LT 32 Kairoaun
LU 35 On leave in Tunis, Chad in Jail
MT 46 End of First Tour - 47 raids
47 2 BPD Tunis - 500 mls. by lorry to Algiers
HXM Capetown Castle - Greenoch - West Kirby
NS 49 Screened 84 OTU Desborough
50 Norton, Sheffield Discip. course
53 W.O - 6th June D Day [underlined] W/O [/underlined]
OS 55 Aircrew Pool, Scampton - HCU Winthorpe STIRLING
56 Syerston Lanc. conversion LANCASTERS
P 57 227 Sqdn. Bardney – Balderton [underlined] P/O [/underlined]
60 DFC [underlined] F/O [/underlined]
63 End of Tour - VE Day
Q 67 Redundant - Photographic Officer, Farnborough
68 u/t Equipment Officer 61MU Handforth
[underlined] GROUP 4 [/underlined]
69 Lager Commandant, Poynton prison camp
2W 75 Civvy Street, Whitehaven Relay Service [underlined] MR [/underlined] .
79 Development Manager, Metropolitan Relays London
44 83 To Kenya, Kirksbridge Farm, Kiminini Kitale
48 85 HM Prison Service Asst. Supt. gr2
555 95 Civil Aviation Radio Officer
556 Mbeya Radio Supt.
557 103 UK leave PMG1 – Flt/RO lic. C. & G.
670 104 Eastleigh - Mwanza
107 Royal visit
680 113 UK leave
114 Entebbe Telecomm. Supt
115 Kisumu
700 123 Nairobi Comm. Centre Ast. Signals Officer
720 129 UK leave
750 134 Nairobi HQ & retirement
800 135 Laikipia Security Network
96 151 Pye Telecommunications, Cambridge Project Engineer
[page break]
[underlined] ILLUSTRATIONS [/underlined]
12A Air Gubber Coiurse 24 CAOS Moffat
15A Finningley Reg. Whellams
20A Bride & Groom 1/3/43
CW in flying kit
CW & HF at Richmond
26A Stan Rutherford with Hilda & Cliff at Richmond
Bill Willoughby (NAV) at Whimpey port gun position
Bill Willoughby & Stan Chatterton in their pits at Blinda
44A Pantelleria target photographs
48A CW with Mum, Barnoldswick
Skipper & B.A. with Hilda at Richmond
Skipper & Hilda at Richmond
48B Skipper& [sic] B.A. with Cliff at Richmond
Stan Rutherford in the snow, at Bircoates
Outside Chalet at Blida
Wimpey at Kaircan
48C At Richmond CW & Hilda
52A Warrant Officer parchment
54A three of Aircrew peeling spuds at Scampton incl. Frank Eaglestone
56A F/O Forster DFM 2nd tour Nav.
C.W.
W/O Foolkes at rear of NJ-P
64A Crashed Remains of 9J – O
64B F/O Cheale, F/O. Bates
S/Ldr Chester DFA with F/O Cheale, W/O Foolkes & F/O Forster DFM
64C More of 9J – O
64D F/O Ted (Ace) Forster DFM, CW & W/O Pete Foolkes
64E CW with rear turret of 9J – O
CW with motor-byke
Sgt. Geoff (Doogan) Hampson, Flight Engineer
64F Newspaper cutting
Start of Second Tour – Frank Eaglestone, Ted Forster & Pete Foolkes
More of 9J – O
64G Ted Forster Ready for Gerry?
Lunchtime over Homberg [sic]
64H P/O Bates (My last tour Skipper)
Part of F/O Bates’ usual crew
64J F/LT. Maxted (Gunnery Ldr) Pete Foolkes and F/O Sandford (spare gunner or Sqdn Adj?)
More of 9J – O
64K Doogan again
More of 9J – O
64L DFC Citation
64M Apology from H.M.
64N F/O Croker’s Lanc. on Torpedo dump at Wyke
Christmas Dinner at Wyke
Reverse of Pete’s Xmas Card 1989
Part of F/L Croker’s letter with Xmas Card
66A-H Examples of Battle Orders
[page break]
[underlined] DEDICATION [/underlined]
The section dealing with my R.A.F. career is dedicated to Lady Luck who shows no compassion, is completely immoral and yet cannot be bought.
After a remarkable interview on television recently, Raymond Baxter asked of Tom Sopwith "To what do you attribute your tremendous and unparalelled [sic] success over such a long period?” In his 94th. year he replied “Luck, pure luck”. His reply was the same when asked again at his 100th. birthday party.
This must apply to every aspiring aviator, and I was no exception.
[page break]
[underlined] THE EARLIEST YEARS [/underlined]
My first ten year or so were spent in Yorkshire, having been born on the [deleted] 22nd [/deleted] [inserted] 11th [/inserted] of February 1922, at 45 Federation Street [inserted] the home of my paternal Gt Grandparents [/inserted], Barnoldswick almost opposite nr. 26 where my Grandparents lived, and about two years after my father was demobbed from the Kings Own Yorkshire Light lnfantry after the Great War. My sister Winifred Sofia was born almost two years later on the 2nd. of January 1924. About that time the family moved to a shop at 33 Rainhall Road where my father established a wireless business. I attended the infants school only 50 yards away, often joined by Winifred.
At the shop, my father built radio receivers of the "Tuned Radio Frequency" type, (TRF), a good 10 years ahead of the superhet. At the same time he held one of the first radio amateur licences in Yorkshire, with the callsign 2ZA. His aerial was a wire to the top of a 50 ft. pole in the back yard and starting with a spark transmitter his first radio contact was with another amateur in Colne, whose transmitter output was connected between the gas and water pipes, He had no means of measuring his frequency but thought it was somewhere around 300 KHz. (1000 metres) He soon progressed to using valves and gradually higher frequencies, though almost everything was really trial and error. When communication progressed to "working" other countries the prefix G was added to UK call-signs. He once told me that his first telephony transmission was achieved using a GPO carbon microphone in the aerial circuit. The only receivable broadcast wireless station at that time was the BBC's 2LO and when people heard it for the first tine there was indeed great wonderment and excitement
In 1926 came the general strike. Money was very scarce and people were hungry. There was no money coming in and the shop closed down. The family moved to a house in Rook Street, close to the railway bridge and opposite the cobler's [sic] wooden workshop. Most of us wore clogs in those days, with leather tops and laces, and iron-shod wooden soles.
Before going to war my father had served an engineering apprentiship [sic] , and worked with steam engines. With outstanding debts at the shop and a wife and two small children to support, he volunteered to work with L.M.S. railway company, and drove a train between Barnoldswick and I think Skipton. The engine was pelted with stones at some of the bridges and he was very unpopular with the strikers, althought [sic] many of them were quite happy to use the train. Thus the family was sustained and he received a letter of thanks and a medalion [sic] from the chairman of L.M.S.
When things returned to normal the family moved again, to nr. 14 School Terrace in Dam Head Road and Winifred and I attended the infants and Junior Schools across the back street. My mother was able to resume working at the mill as a cotton weaver with her sisters Molly and Annie. Their brother Jim -my uncle- was a 'twister', that is he connected the cotton threads on the warp to tails ready for applying to the loom for weaving. The noise. in the weaving sheds was deafening and weavers were quite adept at lip reading. This had a great influence on their broad northern accent. Most weavers operated six looms, loading manually the weft into the shuttles before changing them. My uncle Charlie -the brother of my paternal grandfather=- was a manufacturer employing about a hundred people running 500 or so looms. I remember the big warehouse doors and the lift which was operated by water pressure. To go up, just turn on this tap!. Going down transfered [sic] the water back into a holding
[page break]
tank. There were two offices, large wooden boxes, one on each side of the big doors and just under the ceiling. Accessed by ladders. One office was for uncle Charlie and his clerk, and the other for the more junior staff. When I called to see them in 1941 I noted the intercom. system between the offices. It comprised, at each terminal, two empty Lyle Golden Syrup tins one for speaking into and the other for receiving. they were connected by two lengths of taught string which vibrated the diaphragms being the bottoms of the tins. I was surprised at their effectiveness. There was also a loop of string pulled manually between the two places with a small box attched [sic] for transferring documents. I was impressed. Uncle Charlie said he would consider changing the strings after the war.
At School Terrace my father carried on building wireless sets in the attic and also helped his friend Tom Shorrock who owned the local radio relay service. This comprised a wireless receiver and amplifiers connecting some hundreds of houses with a pair of bare wires to loudspeakers at a cost of ninepence per week for each loudspeaker. The idea appealed to my father and he was able to instigate some technical improvements. By then the wireless manufacturing industry had become well established and radios became readily available. My father had paid off his debts and was discharged from bancrupsy [sic].
At this stage we moved into a new house at 25 Melville Avenue. which was nearer to Fernbank Mill for my mother but also had an inside toilet and bathroom. It also had electricity mains in place of the more customery [sic] gas lighting. An electric soldering iron must have seemed luxurious after heating a copper bit on a gas ring.
Our school was only a few minutes walk from home. Gisburn Road Council School. I remember it and the teachers very well, Mr Alfred Green Petty.the Headmaster, Miss Housen who tought [sic] music english and poetry, and above all Mr Heaton who tought [sic] arithmetic, citizanship [sic] and physics. Miss Housen did not think much of my efforts, I couldn’t sing and disliked poetry, but I got on fine with Mr. Heaton, who also tought [sic] my father over 20 years earlier. Over a fairly long period he gave me extra homework in arithmetic most nights, generally a problem or two and he checked the results next day. It was almost private tuition and thanks largely to him, I excelled in the subject. I think children’s attitudes' in the main were very different to those of the present day. Discipline was strict by consent, not fear. Reward was achieved by effort alone and there was friendly competition between us. Most of us got the cane for some minor offence like climbing over the school wall, in my case refusing to stand in the front of the class and recite ‘the wreck of the Hesperus’. We did respect our teachers.
About this time we moved to a house in Headingley for just a few weeks and then on to. Fence, which we knew as wheatley Lane. During that period my father was working in London at Stag Lane fitting the electrics in Rolls Royces. My mother worked at the cotton mill nearby and Winifred & I were looked after partly by Mrs. Ingham who had a sweet shop. Our stay in Fence was also [deleted] m [/deleted] of short duration.
Tom Shorrock was a friend of Mr. Ramsbottom who was struggling with a one programme radio relay system in Keighley. He already had thriving electrical business and Tom introduced my father to him. So we moved yet again, to Keighley, and my father became Engineer and Manager of Ramsbottoms Radio Relay Service in the centre of Keighley. From 33 Lister Street, the Receiving and Amplifying Station the wires branched
[page break]
out on the roof tops in all directions. By then there were two BBC programmes, Home Service on 342 mtrs, and the Light Programme on 1500 mtrs, so they converted to two pairs for two programmes. We were living at 25 Lawnswood Road but soon moved to a new house at 21 Whittley Road. I recall helping Leslie Wright – Dad’s foreman to erect a garage which cost £7.10.0 to house the new Austin 7 which cost £75 taxed and insured. The other personality I remember well was Walter Spurgeon, chief wireman.
Winifred and I attended Holycroft Council School. Some of the lessons were by listening to the radio, an innovation in those days, and it was my job to check the radio was working, each morning.
It was in Keighley that Mrs. Alice Kilham, my father’s secretary came on the scene. She lived in Oakworth with her daughter Mary, her husband being in a sanitorium being treated for TB. During very cold winter around 1933 the snow was six feet deep and they came to live with us at Wittley Road.
Winifred and I were in the Girl Guides and Boy Scouts respectively and we decided to take the Signaller badge which meant sending and receiving the morse code. We were told the speed required was 12. Having established a battery and buzzer, and a morse key and headphones by the beds in each bedroom, we soon memorised the code and communicated with each other, quickly reaching 12 words per minute. Eventually we progressed to 18 words per minute and then went to take the test. Only then did we find that the speed required was 12 LETTERS per minute, not words. 12 letters is only 2 words per minute. However this faux pas proved very useful about eight years hence.
After just a few years in Keighley, the system was working well and no longer presented a challenge. My father was approached by a group of businessmen from Norwich who were interested in the “wired wireless” system. They were owners of radio busineses [sic] who felt they shouId have a stake in the competition and bank managers hoping to earn a quick buck. All the bank managers were Yorkshiremen. So Norwich Relays Ltd. came into being with premises in St. John Maddermarket, and my father became Engineer and manager, taking with him his secretary and foreman Lesley Wright from Keighley. Allan Moulton joined the firm and was responsible for obtaining wayleaves, that is obtaining permission from owners to put wires on their property. He was a popular figure in Norwich, his main qualification for the job was that he played cricket for Norfolk and knew most people who mattered. Leslie died whilst in his thirties in Norwich.
Once again we moved house, to 119 Unthank Road, and Mrs. Kilham and Mary moved into a cottage in Blickling Court near Norwich Cathedral. Winifred I went to the Avenues Council School initially but not for long. I remember getting a prize for my ‘lecture' on how a TRF wireless worked, showing them the working radio I had made. Probably not very accurate but there was no-one present who could contradict me, fortunately.
At 13 I changed to the Norwich Junior Technical School in St. Andrews. Soon after we moved house yet again to a new house, “Wayside", in Plumstead Road, on the boundary of Norwich Aerodrome. Winifred then joined Mary at St. Monicas private school. On Saturday mornings I attended Art School on the top floor. I achieved very little there, the art master quite rightly concentrating on pupils who showed some potential. For an enjoyable two years we concentrated on technical
[page break]
subjects, woodwork, maths, physics, Chemistry, mechanics, technical drawing, metal and woodwork etc. The masters I remember well, ‘Chemi’ Reed the principle, Mr. Abigail, Mr. McCracken and Mr. Lishman. At the end of two-year course I transfered [sic] to Unthank College in Newmarket Road, joining the 5th. form. This was big change for me, the emphasis was on classical subjects, in English literature we spent a whole year studying Shakespeare’s A Midsummer Night's Dream and Spencer's Fairy Queen. I couldn't: get interested in either but I later achieved a credit in the School Certificate by answering questions on A.G. Street’s Farmers Glory which I read in bed the night before the exam. Mr. Bertwhistle the English Lit. master was furious. For Physics and Mechanics I had tuition from Mr. Horace, the Principal's son and on Wednesday afternoons I visited “Chemi” Reed's house at 33 Britannia Rd. for tuition.
In early 1939 my father, Mr. Moulton and Mrs. Kilham acquired six run-down relay firms and the Nuvolion loudspeaker factory in South London from a Mr. Olivisi, a Frenchman. My father moved to Stretham to a flat in Pullman Court and Mrs. Kilham and Mary and to duCane Court in Balham where the Moultons also had a flat. My mother and Winifred moved to a house in West Norwood and I became a boarder at Unthank College. Soon after taking the School Certificate I joined my mother in London and we moved to a flat in New Southgate. I became articled to George Eric Titley, a Chartered Accountant in St Paul’s Churchyard, commuting to the city 6 days a week by underground. Rail fare was tenpence return per day and I was paid ten shillings per week. Fifty pence in 2004 currency The firm was Gladstone Titley and Co. at 61-63 St. Pauls Churchyard and I was the junior with qualified accountants Joe Oliver, Clarke and Jenkins, and Miss Miller the Secretary. It was amusing 6 years hence when I barged into a Board Meeting at 69 Lavender Hill, Sqdn/Ldr Jenkins still in uniform was sitting there when F/O Cliff Watson appearedstill [sic] in Battledress. Jenkins was called up in 1940 as an Account Squadron Leader.
On the 3rd. of September 1939 War was declared and any plans we all had for the future were kiboshed. During the blitz in 1940 to be nearer my father and to help out at Relays we moved home to Ascot Court in Acre Lane, Clapham.
[page break]
[underlined] JOINING UP [/underlined] .
The outbreak of war found me as a clerk articled to a Chartered Accountant in St. Paul's Yard. London. At the age of 17 1/2 it went without saying that within a year or two my occupation would be changed way or another. In the family Radio Relay business men were already leaving to join to Forces. My father was on an army reserve and expected to be called up at any time. I felt my best course was to abandon accountancy for the time being and try and help out; so I joined the firm as a General Factotum. During the Blitz on London my job was fault-finding and replacing the overhead lines, knocked down by Jerry bombers where buildings and whole streets were destroyed. The Radio Relay Service, a two programme four wire system in those days, linked the BBC with some tens of thousands of homes in South London, homes where the radio was never switched off. The system carried air raid warnings also. All too frequently the radio was interrupted by an announcer at Scotland Yard with “Attention please, here is an important announcement, an air raid warning has just been officially circulated". There were occasions when bombs were dropped before the sirens sounded, but never before the announcement was made on our Radio Relay System.
September, aged 18 1/2, I found my employers were trying hard to register me as being in a reserved occupation. The Manager, Allan Moulton, had already been successful in his own case, which was reasonable. Someone had to run the firm and my father had sailed off to Abbysinia [sic] in March. At the time I was working literally 18 hours per day and my fifty bob per week hardly paid for digs.
On a very rare afternoon-off I was walking down Kingsway and tried my luck at the R.A.F. Recruiting office. One look at an applicant for aircrew wearing glasses brought an instant decision from the man at the door. I walked along the Strand and down Whitehall, and having removed my spectacles tried the Royal Navy. I completed the application form and was told that I would be called for interview eventually, but there was a very long waiting list.
I tried the R.A.F. again about a week later having left-off my spectacles for several days, and an application form for training as a pilot was completed. Had I previous flying experience? Yes. Fortunately I was not asked for details, as a passenger with Alan Cobham's Flying Circus might not have carried much weight. - In 1936 we had lived at a house called "Wayside” in Plumsted Road, Norwich, on the Mousehold aerodrome boundary, with a panoramic view of the aerodrome, and I was fascinated by it all like most boys of my age. It was to be three months before I heard from the R.A.F. - the Navy had missed the boat – I was to report to the Aircrew Selection Board near Euston station, on the appointed day about a week hence, for 'medical and academic examinations'. The letter added that in the maths exam `log tables but not slide rules are permissable [sic] ’.
The great day arrived, and at 8.30 am. with about 80 other applicants we were told there would be three one hour written exams, Maths, English and General Knowledge, followed by a medical and a brief interview. Maths was a typical 5th. form end of term test, and English an essay with a wide choice of subjects. General knowledge was mainly common-sense. One of the questions I recall; "Is the distance from London to Warsaw nearer 100, 600 or 2000 miles?”. The Medical Exam was carried out by about 6 examiners, probably Doctors, on a production Iine basis.
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Then the interview after a delay of some hours. Three uniformed R.A.F. officers who had obviously been places in previous wars. "Why do you want to fly"? I have forgotten the particular piece of flannel I used, but it brought no comment and another member of the Board fired his shot, "Which is colder, minus 40 Centigrade or minus forty farenheit [sic] ? Instant answer to that, I'd hear. it before somewhere. The third member asked "that does your Father do" I replied "He is an officer in the R.A.S.C. fighting the Italians in Abbysinia [sic] ". This brought a chuckle from two of them for some reason and the interview was over. I would be advised by post of their decision after the exam. results had been studied.
A week later I was told to report to Euston for attestation, actual reporting for duty would follow after some weeks. There was a brief ceremony and I was given a document which stated that " AC2 Clifford Watson 1384956 has been accepted for training as a pilot in the R. A. F. and is to be prepared to report for duty of a few days notice". It went on to state further that his teeth should receive the earliest attention, one extraction and two fillings.
About three months later my call-up papers arrived, and meanwhile I had met two other local lads whose paths had converged with my own and were to stay parallel for the next six months or so. Raymond Colin Chislett, the son of a Battersea butcher, .and Tom King., of Wandsworth. The three of us reported to the R.T.O. at Paddington and joined a party bound for Babbacombe near Torquay.
During the week at Babbacombe we were issued with uniforms, introduced to drill and Service discipline, lectured on the history of the R.A.F. and told something of what the future held for us. We were made to feel that we really belonged and were indeed priveleged [sic] to be chosen to follow in the footsteps of 'The Few'. We were perhaps more than a little naive to think that we were all destined to become fighter pilots, but we were made to feel that the fate of England and the empire rested entirely with us. The Bombers were taken for granted and were not in the forefront of than news at that time. In any case we Londoners had seen our Fighters in action and - we admit it - imagined ourselves in their shoes. There was a tremendous urge to get on with it and to make a success of it. A great sense of urgency prevailed. I remember well that first day in the Royal Air Force. We were advised to write down our Service numbers so we wouldn't forget them, and above all, we had strawberries and cream for tea. The last I saw of strawberries and cream for about eight years, and as for forgetting one's Service number...! Perhaps it was intended as a joke, but we were taking everything very seriously. At the end of the week there was another Pep talk, very well delivered by a Squadron Leader - and equally well received. He remarked that about Babbacombe, people will say "Never in the History of human conflict, have so many been burgered [sic] about by so few". A misquotation of those immortal words. He went on to say that the two most important weeks in your R.A.F. careers are the first and last, and "you have already survived 50% of them, Good Luck chaps, and have a good trip". There was probably a lot more feeling and sincerity behind those words than we realised at the time. He had seen it all and been there 'in the last lot'. "Have a good trip” was to have real meaning in due course.
A short journey by train took us to no. 10 Initial Training Wing at Newquay for 8 weeks of ground training. We were accommodated in
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Trenance Hotel, one of many taken over by the R.A.F. Another hotel was used for lectures in Navigation, Airmanship, Aerodynamics, Engines, Aircraft Recognition, Signalling, R.A.F. Law and Administration, etc. etc. some drill and P.T., and swimming in the local baths. The sea and beach were out of bounds due to mines and other surprises awaiting the enemy. I had to concentrate hard in the classroom on everything, except signalling. The required speed for sending and receiving morse was 12 words per minute and I had been happy at 18 w.p.m. in the Boy Scouts.
The 18 w.p.m. came about through a misunderstanding. My sister Winifred (a Girl Guide) and I were learning morse for our Signaller badges and were told that a speed of 15 was required, so we practiced until we were competent at 18. It was only when we took the test that we learned the required speed was 15 letters and not words per minute. However this mistake was now serving me well.
The only part I did not enjoy was the cross-country runs, but someone had to be in the last three. After two weeks we were told now that we had smartened-up a bit we would wear white flashes in our caps so we would not be mistaken for real airmen.
There was great speculation as to where we would go for flying training. Maybe stay in Britain, or was it to be Canada, U.S.A., South Africa or Rhodesia, and was there not a possibility of it being Australia?. Meanwhile we must concentrate on passing the current hurdle, it could not by any means be taken for granted that we would all pass the course. In fact after only four weeks, four out of the original 50 were "scrubbed" - a new word to add to our rapidly 'increasing vocabulary.
After about 5 weeks we were issued with some flying kit, boots and Sidcot suits, goggles, helmet and a full issue of gloves - silk, wool, chamois and gauntlets. 4 pairs worn together, and a fifth, electricalIy heated, yet to came. We were not to know that it would be 15 months before we wore any of this. I doubt whether our destination was known to anyone at I.T.W. except that it was overseas somewhere. Seven days embarkation leave and the entire course was posted to West Kirby, no. 1 P.D.C., near Birkenhead on the Wirral. We were joined by about 300 other u/t Pilots from other I.T.W.s and it was just a matter of waiting for the draft. There were parades each morning and we were allowed out of camp at mid-day. It was here that Tom, Ray and I teamed up with John Heggarty, a u/t Pilot who had been at 11 I.T.W. in Scarborough. He was from Birkenhead, of Anglo/French parentage. The four of us visited Liverpool every evening, a place crowded with Navy, Army and Air Force types mostly in transit to somewhere or other. Scores of ships were loading in the Mersey, but after a couple of weeks it was a special train for us to Greenock on the Clyde for immediate embarkation on the "Mooltan", a merchant ship of same 30,000 tons. Our 350 were accomodated [sic] on "D" Deck, just above the water-line, where we spent most of our time, not by choice but by order. Some slept on the mess tables, others under them, with the top layer of bodies in hammocks, a crippling device. To realise that hammocks were the traditional sleeping arrangements for British sailors left me unimpressed and I felt that something far more superior could have been devised. However, navies of many countries seem to favour them. Once aboard, there was no going back. On the second day aboard we were tugged down the Clyde and next morning counted over 40 big ships steaming very slowly in a north-
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westerly direction out at sea. Obviously we were bound for Canada, hence the heavy flying kit .and four pairs of gloves. A week ought to see us in the St. Lawrence. How wrong we were. the convoy was shepherded by some very impressive naval ships, Cruisers, destroyers etc. and Sunderland flying boats were in constant attendance for the first few days. After three weeks of steaming in all directions, first into the freezing cold, then warmer and finally very hot indeed, at 0500 one day the engines slowed and finally stopped; a rattling of chains and then silence. All very dramatic but a buzz on the P. A. system told us we had arrived in Freetown. Portholes were to remain closed. We may go up on deck but on no account were we to remove our shirts nor buy anything from the natives. By mid-day the temperature below decks was almost unbearable and there was no respite from that for a further two weeks. Salt water showers were available at all times, it was just a matter of stripping and walking through the shower. No need for a towel, but in any case that was reserved for absorbing perspiration and we became accustomed to the salt water. Food on board was very good under the circumstances. Two orderlies from each "table" would collect it from the galley (vocabulary still improving) and dish up, and after the meal two more orderlies would clean the tables and wash up. The chores were shared on a roster basis at each table, and each had some duty to perform every few days. We were very fortunate in that we were cadets and not yet real airmen we spent some of our time attending lectures in the second class lounge. We estimated there were about 3000 troops aboard. There was lots of talent for the almost daily concerts. A daily newssheet called "DER TAG”, together with the P.A. system kept us up-to-date with the news. The 9 o-clock news was a must.
Five weeks out of Liverpool it who getting cold again, even below decks, and greatcoats were essential deckwear for the endless lifeboat drills. There were lifeboats but for most of us it was a matter of parading on deck near a stack of Carley floats. The subject was better not discussed, there was no satisfactory answer to abandoning ship.
The Mooltan carried one gun mound at the stern above the propellers, manned by a RoyaI Artillery crew in transit. It seemed to be of about 4" calibre but was not fired during our voyage. It was said the deck would cave in, but this might have been an exaggeration. There were also two ramps off the stern for depth charges of which there was a supply near the ramps. The sixth week was really cold and wet and we estimated our position as somewhere in Antarctica. We then turned more or less north and after a total of seven weeks dropped anchor late one afternoon a few miles out at sea, with much speculation about our location. At about 7 pm. the shore was like Blackpool illuminations. Wherever we are, don`t they know there's a war on? A buzz on the P.A. system told us we would be disembarking next day and our British currency would be of no use to us in this foreign country. We should hand-in all currency, and get a receipt which would be exchanged for local currency when we got ashore. Next morning we entered the docks and disembarked. It was only then we found we were in Durban and were taken straight to the Transit Camp at Clairwood. The army contingent remained on-board and were understood to be bound for action in the Middle
East. So we had arrived in South Africa, and a very congenial and pleasant place it turned out to be.
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[underlined] SOUTHERN RHODESIA [/underlined] .
Clairwood Camp was just a few miles from Durban and there we spent 7 days, very enjoyable, but for the first two days, stoney broke. We had handed in all our money aboard ship but it was to be 10 days before it was exchanged for local currency. However, we seemed to get into Durban every day and we were made very welcome in the Service canteens and clubs.
Before I left England, I was given a card which stated that LAC Cliff. Watson was the son of a respected member of the Battersea Rotary Club and any co-operation afforded to him would be greatly appreciated. I noticed the Rotary insignia at the doorway of a Barclays bank in Durban and asked to see the manager. Could I please borrow £5 and I would refund it as soon as I was paid. 45 years later I would certainly not undertake such a venture. It happened to be the first Friday in the month which was the day of the monthly Rotary luncheon. The three lads from Battersea were invited to lunch and each given £10 on condition that we did not refund it. This was hospitality indeed. Several times in Durban we were entertained by the local people, and of course the environment was completely strange to us, so were the bunches of bananas, pawpaws and other fruits.
After about a week to regain our land legs, we embarked on a train and steamed north. The train was a coal burner and we were aboard for 3 days bound for Bulawayo. Food on the train was really first-class. At one stage we were told to disembark for a spot of exercise [sic] and whilst this was in progress the train moved off. We were marched in a direction at right-angles to that of the train and met up with it about an hour later. This was my first experience of African trains, and the 4-berth cabins, rather superior to even today's "sleepers" in Britain. Looking back on it 35 years later when I was concerned with radio communications between trains and stations in the U.K., - my firm was trying to Introduce a communications system-, I recalled chatting with the Radio Officer in his Radio Cabin on the train whist he was on the morse key in contact with the station at Mafeking. It was many years later that communication with trains in Britain was established.
After a very pleasant three-day journey, we arrived in Bulawayo and buses took us to Hillside Camp, formerly the Agricultural Show Ground. We were accommodated literally in what had been the Pig Sties. These were merely wattle poles supporting corrugated iron roofs with hessian round the poles to represent walls. The whole structure was whitewashed and with plenty of fresh air the accommodation was ideal. There must have been about 600 trainee pilots at Hillside Camp, and we embarked on a second I.T.W. course of ground training. There was however a single Tiger Moth on which we learned to swing the prop. and start the engine. So at last we had sat in an aeroplane although it wasn't going anywhere. At least it was supposed to be anchored down, but an Australian did taxi it a hundred yards or so after an evening of celebration.
Our stay in Bulawayo was certainly very pleasant, we visited Cecil Rhodes grave at Matopas, the ancient ruins of Zimbabwe, spent weekends on farms, enjoyed the swimming and so on, but our minds were on the war of which we were not feeling a part. Pearl Harbour had brought the
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Americans into the fray, several Capital Ships had been lost and things were going badly 'up north'.
In January came a very welcome posting, to 25 E.F.T.S. (Elementary Flying Training School) at Belvedere, on the outskirts of Salisbury. Here the day started at 0400 and we enjoyed tea and toast of our own making before assembling at 0425 for two-mile march to the airfield. By 0500 half the course would be standing-by for flying and the other half lectures and more ground training. Breakfast was between 0900 and 1030 hrs. which included the 2 mile march each way, and after breakfast the two halves of the course changed over. Flying started on the sixth of Jan. with what was to be a typical day, with 30 minutes of flying instruction at 0515, and lectures after breakfast. Addresses by two ex-fighter pilots F/O Newton and a Flight Sergeant whose left leg was in plaster. The following day I managed to get in an hour’s flying with P/O Bentley, concentrating on turns, glides and climbing. From the outset the instructor frequently cut the throttle without warning sometimes deliberately putting the aircraft into a spin. then telling the pupil to get on with it. My next flying session was with Ft/Sgt Oates as P/O Bentley was on leave and in six weeks of flying instruction managed 12 hours with 7 different instructors. A final three hours was spent with F/O Newton in one hour sessions and I was full of confidence and looking forward to the C.F.I.'s test the following day.
Maybe in retrospect I was over confident, even though most of my friends had been "scrubbed", including Hancocks, Robinson, Morgan, King, Barlow, Vivian, Bolton, Friend, Britton, Jones and Fry. Having made what I thought were two acceptable circuits and landings, the C.F.I.'s final remarks were "Sorry old lad, but as a Service Pilot you make a bloody good rear gunner". I did not regard these as being the words of the Prophet, but so ended my career as a u/t Pilot after 9 months in the R.A.F.
All was not lost however, like all the others whose Personal file was stamped "wastage", I found myself at Disposals Depot, which also happened to be at Belvedere, and in good company. All of us were sadly disillusioned and disappointed at failing the Pilot's Course, and the reasons given for the apparent failure were seldom accepted. Where do we go from here in the long term was the main question, and the opportunity to influence this came at an interview at Group H.Q. in Salisbury. The only guidance came from others who had already had their interviews and were awaiting a posting. The alternatives appeared to be many, we could opt out completely and remuster to ACH GD, reduced to the lowest rank of Airman 2nd. Class and thence take pot luck with no trade and no personal ambition. But we had joined the R.A.F. with too much purpose for this to be acceptable. We could apply for training as Observer which at that time embraced both Navigator and Bomb Aimer duties, but we were meeting chaps just starting that course who had waited six months for it after failing the pilot's course, and this indicated that it could be a year more before we qualified. The most logical answer appeared to be the Air Gunner Course which lasted only six weeks, and apparently with hardly any waiting list, so in less than two months it seemed we could become a sergeant with half a wing, not quite what we set out to achieve, but a far cry from where we stood at the time.
At the interview at Group H.Q. I asked why I had failed and was shown the comments made by my instructors. With the exception of the
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C.F.I.’s comment they were all favourable and I became a little argumentative. For the first time I learned that on the C.F.I. test I had climbed at less than full throttle but at the correct air speed with the normal rate of climb. What I should have done apparently was give it full throttle, keeping the correct air speed and letting the rate of climb take care of itself. On the training aircraft the emphasis had been on speed and rate of climb whereas it should have been on speed only and full throttle.
I remarked that the C.F.I.'s aircraft was more like a Gladiator than a Tiger Moth. The alternative careers were as we had deduced amongst ourselves and I applied to remuster to u/t Wireless Operator/Air Gunner and to do the A/G course as soon as possible. This was approved on the spot, and my file was endorsed “Watson requests an A/G course merely for the quickness in getting onto ops." I was supposed to start the course the following week.
It was to be three months before I was actively posted to Moffat to do the Air Gunner Course, and the greater part of this was spent on leave, returning to camp periodically to check progress. We had only to walk along the road away from town to be offered a lift which generally meant spending the rest of the day with new friends, and quite often arranging to spend a week or so with them. It was on the 15th. of Feb. Tom King and I were spending 10 days leave with our hosts Mr. & Mrs. Bedford at Poltimore Farm, Marandellas that we listened to Churchill's speech, with the dreadful news of the fall of Singapore. This led to a general discussion on the likely future plans of the war and it was generally felt there would be an allied landing at Dakar with the assistance of the French, and the forces would move north and then east to catch Rommel in a pincer movement. Not too far out in our argument, only 2000 miles, but we had the general scheme and timing right. Later we were shown around the tobacco "barns" where 12,000 leaves were drying in each of 10 barns. My diary records that "one of the most interesting things we were shown was the castrating of 300 pigs" A rather messy business", perhaps I was less squeamish in those days. Later about 2000 head of cattle were dipped including 3 wicked looking bulls. The two children tried to keep us amused, and with great success. We repaired their bicycles, small car, swing and dolls' house furniture, the dolls house being about 20 feet square. We carved out the names Wendy (8) and Cliff (20) on a tree and really began to enjoy the Rhodesian way of life. We cycled over to Chakadenga Farm and had tea with Mrs. Nash and also met the local jailer. We tried to repay all this kindness by making ourselves generally useful, and I recall changing the oil in Mrs. Nash's Chevrolet and repairing the lights. We also refitted the long-wire aerial on the house radio and refurbished the engine house which accommodated the lighting plant and batteries.
We tried to spend.as much time away from camp as possible, our idea being 'out of sight, out of mind'. Occasionally the S.W.O caught up with us and we were detailed for guard duty on the aerodrome, a 12 hour guard working 2 hours on and four off. The complete guard comprised 6 airmen, 4 on standby in the guard room, one cycling around the aerodrome and one standing in a sentry box at the side of the double gates which were normally closed. There were neither fences-nor ditches linking the gate posts and it was easier to drive a car onto the airfield on the wrong side of the gate posts than to bother with the gate. Generally the Orderly Officer carried out his inspection about 7.pm. but on one
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occasion suddenly appeared about 3 am. from the direction of the airfield and drove up to the main gate on his way out, parking so near the gate it could not be opened. I turned out the guard, which took about 5minutes and we were treated to a tirade and lecture covering several subjects including how utterly futile the guard was. One of the chaps said “you are absolutely right Sir" which made matters worse and he stormed back into his car. The headlights had been left on and the car wouldn't start, so we leaned our rifles against the sentry box and pushed the car backwards so we could open the gates. Finally the entire guard pushed the car forward and it started without trouble, but headed back towards camp. We decided to remain at the open gate, and a few minutes later the car returned at great speed, and disappeared through the gate in a tremendous cloud of dust without further formality. We had good laugh but it did little for the morale of chaps whose ambitions had been thwarted and who felt they were wasting their time in the R.A.F. and, even more so in guarding a gate which had no real purpose with blank ammunition and rifles which it would be too dangerous to fire. By the end of March the aerodrome guard was taken more seriously and comprised 24 Europeans and about 60 Africans, which meant the remustering aircrew trainees were on guard every few nights. I was given the job running the Post Office and Stores which exempted me from guard duties but also curtailed my leave periods.
On the 3rd. April Tom King and 20 others were posted to 24 C.A.O.S. at Moffat, near Gwelo, about half-way between Salisbury and Bulawayo, for their Air Gunner Course. The intake was 50 per month and we wondered where the other 40 had come from. Meanwhile Ray Chislett the other member of the Battersea trio- was doing extremely well at Cranbourne flying Oxfords. Root and Robertson were killed the previous day in a Harvard whilst officially on practice instrument flying but actually beating up a tree and misjudging matters
On the 1st. of May, I was posted to Moffat and started the A-G course. Things seemed to be happening in our favour at long last; and had been delayed because of a large influx of remustered ground crews who had got out of Singapore just in time, and also another large influx of Aussies for Air Gunner training. It was good to see Tommy King pass out as a Sgt. A-G and for Cpl. Luck to receive his commission.
On Sun. the 10th. of May there was a church parade in best blues and khaki topee, held in Gwelo. Two days later L.A.C. Chick Henbest, u/t A-G ex u/t Pilot shot a large hole in his own aircraft's tail. When he as charged with the offence he brought an expert witness, the Station Armament Officer ! - to state that such a thing was technically impossible. The Air-Gunner training was partly intergrated [sic] with that of the Navigator's, and on the 13th. May on such an occasion 'Ace' Buchanan and another A-G, piloted by Sgt. Reed, force-landed near QueQue and were missing for 5 hours
In the four weeks at Moffat we carried out 9 hours of Air firing in Anson aircraft using a Vickers Gas Operated gun of .303 calibre. This was mounted on a Scarfe ring with the gunner standing and firing at a drogue towed by a Miles Master aircraft. 200 rounds were fired during each exercise [sic] , the 3 "pans" of ammo. having been filled by the gunner and then 'doctored' by an armourer with faulty rounds, and other simulated faults. The only turrets available were on the ground, and comprised an ancient Frazer Nash, Daimler and electrical Boulton & Paul. A total of 4 hours was spent in them. We were supposed to swing the
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turret aiming at moving light images on the wall but in practice the bulbs in the ring-sights were all faulty.
On the 29th. May we graduated and were presented with brevets and tapes. The course was posted to Capetown but I had to report to Salisbury to give evidence at Gooding's Court Martial. Gooding had stolen my Agfa Carat camera and scores of other items in Bulawayo. Meanwhile on the news, 1000 Bombers over the Rhur [sic] again and 37 missing. A few days previously the very first raid on this scale was made on Cologne with 44 aircraft missing. The Middle-East war was becoming more intensive and in Russia Jerry was in real trouble, but we seemed a very long way from it all.
One of my friends on the Pilots course was Ian Smith who lived in Salisbury and with whom I used to go looking for buck in the early mornings. Ian had failed the course like most of us but being a Rhodesian had obtained his discharge locally and joined the Southern Rhodesia Light Battery currently at the K.G. VI barracks. I went to the barracks in the afternoon and saw Norman, and was introduced to Solomon, Slim and other Rhodesians in the S.R. Army Medical Corps. After tea in the mess we went to the local bioscope to see 'East of the River'. On the 13th. of June I managed to get another 19 days leave which was spent with Mr. & Mrs. James at their farm at Gilston, about 16 miles south of Salisbury. With three Aussies we had a wonderful holiday, riding, cycling, tennis, swimming, all at the farm. We rode up to the bushman's caves in a copje 4 miles into the bundu and photographed them. To the Aussies it was like being home and I concluded there was no alternative to this sort of life.
On my return to Disposals Depot my stolen camera was returned to me and I found that Gooding was on yet another charge,- stealing a W/T Set - . A few more days leave to say cheerio to all my friends in Salisbury, and I returned to Gwelo to find that I was posted to Bulawayo to give evidence at the Court Martial. I stayed with Mr. & Mrs. Rose for a week or so and spent some time at the Cement works where Mr. Rose was Manager. I was offered a job there if I would return after the war and for a long time this formed the basis of my post-war plan, but a great deal was to happen before that time came. The Court Martial was a very formal affair, and Gooding was charged with theft on about 45 counts. He had not disposed of anything he had stolen for personal gain, and pleaded Kleptomania. He was sentenced to dismissal from the R.A.F. after immediate return to U.K., and recommended for psychiatric observation. He survived the war, certified unfit for Military service and resumed his career with a firm of solicitors in Surrey. The case was finished just in time for me to join the rest of the course on the 1st. of July at Bulawayo station. In Gwelo I had bought a tin trunk which was now nearly full of presents, pyjamas for Hilda, stockings for Mum, embroidering material, tobacco, cigarettes, jam and so on.
After a 55 hour train journey we arrived in Kapstaad and enjoyed Iunch with John Heggarty before joining another train to Retreat and the drive to Polsmoor Transit Camp by bus. It rained heavily for a couple of days and the activity was just one big reunion. I met friends I had not seen since Newquay. Dicky Aires and Jack Frost were there as Sgt. pilots, Howard Iliffe (1090111) and Bob Hildred also, having trained as pilots at George, in the Union. Arthur Brittain a Sgt. Observer and Stewart Evans who was in the Officers Mess at Kumalo. In the next four
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weeks we spent most of our time in Capetown, making a beeline for the Soldiers Club. The welcome we received from the South Africans was positively overwhelming, and people were literally queueing up to entertain us. On the 4th. of July a group of four of us including Ray Chislett and two Maltese soldiers met Mrs. Williams and had tea at her flat. After tea we motored out to a vineyard and got quite merry on four glasses of their own wine. On the way out one of the tyres was punctured and it took us less than three minutes to change the wheel. In the evening we went to the Odeon Bioscope at Seapoint with complimentary tickets which appeared from out of the blue. Howard. Iliffe, John Heggarty and I spent a great deal of time together in Capetown where Howard & I met two young ladies. One of them, introduced as Cheri de la Chene said she was French and had spent five years in Paris, but she could not understand my efforts at speaking French. John Heggarty had quite a brainwave and I introduced him as a member of the Free French Forces,-L'Aviation Francais Libre-. John was absolutely fluent in native French and soon discovered that Cheri was neither French nor a University student, but a schoolgirl of 14 at the Convent. Whilst in Capetown I met Binedall with whom I used to correspond before the war, and he gave me a large matchbox which I left with Mrs. Williams' mother to be collected after the war. I have left it rather too late. The climb up Table Mountain with Ray was very interesting and from the top we had a wonderful view of Muizeuburg. This reminds me of one night during a trial blackout at Muizenburg, Heggarty and I met Mrs. Macbeth who invited us to dinner on the following day. We gladly accepted and on arrival at the house next day referred to her as Mrs. Shakespeare. This was laughed off and we spent a very enjoyable evening. After dinner we went to a show in Muizenburg and met a lady who had lived near Battersea Park. In 1952 in Mbeya in Tanganyika I was talking to another 'Radio Ham' in Muizenburg arid mentioned my faux pas with Mrs. Macbeth's name. He said he was living in Mrs. Macbeth's guest house and she had related the story at dinner only a few days previously. Stuttafords of Adderley Street provided a very interesting experience for Heggarty and me. We wandered into a tea-room the likes of which we had never seen before, it seemed the ultimate in luxury. We asked mildly for just two cups of tea but up came the whole works of silver teaset with lots of pastries and cakes. We said no thankyou, really, just two cups of tea, but the lady was adamant. We said it was jolly nice but funds were limited and the cakes were beyond our means. She said she would be very cross if we didn't have at least half a dozen cakes and then gave us a bill -for 1/3d. Fixed charge for two, she said. Wonderful people, it was embarrassing at times. We called in a Milk Bar for a milkshake and they insisted it was on the house. We would buy a bunch of grapes for a 'ticky', -3d- and they refused payment. One Saturday Ray and I spent the day with the Brandt family who lived at Rosebank . We went for a run with them in the car in the afternoon, round Table Mountain and took some very good photographs. They also drove us to the Lion Match Company's factory in Capetown, where we were given a tour - and quite a lot of labels- a wonderful finale to my first trip to Africa.
After meeting up with our old friends whose paths had taken many different ways and finally converged, but not without the loss of several due to accidents, the resentment at failing the pilot's course had just about worn off. The original crowd of rookies at Newquay were still basically together and covering all aircrew 'trades'. Someone had
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[photograph]
[underlined] AIR GUNNER COURSE [/underlined]
[underlined] APRIL 1942 [/underlined] [underlined] 24 C.A.O.S. MOFFAT, GWELO. [/underlined] [underlined] S. RHODESIA [/underlined]
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[underlined] POSTSCRIPT [/underlined]
The A/G course was rather an anti-climax after the concentration and determined outlook on the pilots course. Most of us felt we had wasted our time and had been let down.
During a "lecture" on the Browning gun by Cpl. Paddy Gilligan he noticed correctly that my eyes were closed and pointing to me, yelled "You, what was I saying?", I replied "You were saying 'as the breach block moves to the rear the cam on the rear sear rides along that on the barrel extention [sic] . . . ' There followed a discussion on my detailed phraselogy [sic] and he wound up by shouting "Your problem Watson is you don't speak effing english". I replied that I try to speak the King's english Cpl! and that did it, he swore to fix me. Study of the Browning gun comprised learning parrot-fashion the sequence of events and other odd statistics such as effective range and rate of fire. There was a drawing on the wall which gave us some idea of what it looked like, but the Browning was something for the future, the R.A.F. currently uses the V.G.O. or so we were told. The following day Gilligan told me to go to the billet and make sure the African had cleaned all the lampshades, including the one in his little room. This I did and two hours later reported they were all clean. The next day with no preamble I was told to report to the Orderly Room immediately. I was marched in to the C.O. and charged with failing to carry out an order, and also making a false report. Gilligan gave evidence and said the lampshade in his billet was filthy, I could not have checked it. The C. O. accepted this and I was given a severe rep. and 7 days jankers. I went straight away to the billet and I asked the S.W.O. to accompany me. He delegated a Sgt. Clerk and together we checked the offending lampshade. Sure enough it was filthy. I found the african cleaner and he swore that he had cleaned the shade but the Cpl. had then made him change it for one in the next but where they were all dirty. We all trooped next door and saw that all were indeed filthy except one.
The Sgt. could see what Gilligan was up to and endorsed my written report addressed to the C.O. which also applied for redress of grievance. The result was that my Severe Rep. was cancelled and so was the balance of the jankers.
At the end of the course the exam. papers were marked by Gilligan and he gave me 61% in all subjects which was the absolute minimum for a pass. Again I wrote to the C.O. and he agreed that Gilligan was up to his tricks again. He changed the exam. results to an average of 93% If I had not been so argumentative I could very well have "failed the course"
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to fly the thing, but there was a lot of other work to be done also. A cutting from the Rhodesia Herald whilst at Moffat spelt it out:-
I wished to be a pilot,
And you, along with me;
But if we all were pilots,
Where would the Air Force be?
It takes guts to be a gunner,
To sit out in the tail,
When the Messerschmitts are coming,
And the slugs begin to wail.
The plot's just a chauffeur;
It's his job to fly the plane;
But it's we who do the fighting,
Though we may not get the fame.
If we must all be gunners,
Then let us make this bet;
We'll be the best damn gunners
That have left this station yet
Nearly half a century later it does seem somewhat corny.
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[underlined] OPERATIONAL TRAINING. [/underlined]
And so to the 2nd. August 1942; we boarded HMT J/6, The Monarch of Bermuda and were shown to our cabins, stowed our kit and were issued with passes to go ashore until 1500 hrs. A last look at Table Mountain and Kapstaad and at 1630 on the 3rd. we left South Africa, hoping and firmly intending one day to return. The 10 day voyage to Freetown was a very pleasant cruise, escorted by two Battle Cruisers and three Corvettes and accompanied by The Empress of Russia, we ploughed along at a steady 12 knots. Our favourite pastime was reading the inter-ship messages on the Aldis lamps. Among other things we learned that one of the Empress's boilers was u/s and shut down. Which limited the speed of the whole convoy. There were several U Boat warnings during daylight and these coincided with lifeboat drills, which were taken very seriously.
The accommodation was very good, all the R.A.F. NCOs being accommodated six in each cabin. The cabins were equipped as they had been for luxury cruising pre-war, each with a toilet room with saltwater shower. The portholes remained open the whole time, but this time we were on 'A' and not 'D' Deck. In the Sgts Mess Italian P.O.W.'s waited upon us, and make a very good job of it. All fatigues are carried out by them and they caused no trouble at all. The vigilance of the Polish guards probably influenced that, their bayonets being fixed ALL the time, and there were few words passing between the guards and prisoners, just a few gestures with the bayonet. The Poles had been in action since August 1939 and were a long way from home, first defending their country, evacuating to Yugoslavia, and then making their way to Abadan to join the British. There were 1800 Italian prisoners aboard, mostly captured in Bardia and Tobruk about two years previously. They were a meek and miserable-looking lot. One of our 'stewards' who we called 'Grandpa' was a Cpl Major, and had medals for the Bolshevist and Abbysinian [sic] wars. He spoke very little English, but excellent French, and in return for a few cigarettes made me a bracelet in which he put photos of my fiancee [sic] , Hilda, and me. The material was similar to duralumin and he claimed it was a piece from a shot-down British Bomber in Abbysinia [sic] , a most unlikely story. His only tools were a pen-knife, a razor blade and a 4” nail for engraving. The Italians were confident the Axis would win the war and were expecting Stukas, Fokker Wolfe Condors and 'U' Boats to appear at any time.
There were several hundred European civilians aboard, mostly evacuees from Alexandria and Cairo, who seemed to think they owned the ship. Many of them were ducked during the Crossing the Line ceremony, we claimed exemption, being old timers at that sort of thing!!
There was some form of entertainment almost every evening; mainly variety concerts organised by the troops. During one of these I recall a wounded ex 8th-Army Soldier impersonating Stanley Holloway in his Northern accent with a poem,
"The Reason Why"
The unity of Empire .is seen in ships galore,
As they plough in convoy fashion, to Britain's island shore,
Across the world's big oceans, around continents as well,
The Bulldog breed keeps up the creed that history will tell.
We've roughed it on this convoy, we've lived like herded sheep,
Yet all can see, it's got to be, if freedom's cause we'll keep
We're mixed like breeded cattle, the R. A. F. as well,
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That R.A:F. who two .years ago Just drove the 'uns to 'ell.
They say the good ship Monarch, J6 her tag, goes back to Afric [sic] shortly,
but always behind that Flag.
The Flag we're fighting Jerry for,
the Flag of which we're proud,
the Flag which may be a tattered rag,
but with honoured blood endowed.
In that environment and atmosphere this was pretty stirring stuff.
On the 14th. of August we dropped anchor in Freetown. Just as a year ago, it was very hot and humid, with an overcast sky. This time we were not restricted to below decks, but enjoyed the freedom of the ship and were able to trade with the natives. Sunderland seaplanes were seen patrolling out to sea, with Walrus amphibeans [sic] doing about 60. m.p.h., around the harbour. There was lots of signalling between ships and we could cope with the morse, but the semaphore was too advanced and clever for us.
Sunday the 16th at 0600 the Monarch and the Empress slipped out of Freetown and rejoined the Royal Navy out at sea. We were a little concerned for an hour or two, as the sun was rising on the port beam, but we eventually turned right and the sun returned to it's proper place, astern. We expected to reach England by thursday, but rumours of the invasion of France were rife and my diary actually records that this might delay us a little!. The general topic of conversation was what would it be like going through Customs. We were advised on the P.A. system to hand in any unauthorised arms and ammunition, including loot taken from the enemy. I had 3 kitbags, a tin trunk, suitcase and issue R.A.F. webbing and packs, and somewhere in that lot was 25 lbs. of sugar, 10 lbs of tea, 8 pairs of silk stockings, 2 dress lengths, 15lbs. of jam, lady's pyjamas, 2000 cigarettes and other dutiable material. I also had a very small .22 revolver in my pocket and decided to risk it. It was really a toy, hardly a weapon of war. In the very early hours of the 26th. of August we docked at Greenoch. An hour later our party of 240 or so assembled on deck with a mountain of kit, all newly trained sprog aircrew sergeants. The train pulled in to within 100 yards of the ship and in less than 30 minutes we were on our way by train to Glasgow, then on to London. Whilst changing stations in London, I telephoned the office, BATtersea 8485, at 0730 and was disappointed that Hilda was not yet at work!
We arrived at no. 3 P.D.C. Bournemouth and moved into luxury hotels, expecting to be sent on leave immediately, hardly worth unpacking, but this was not to be. We were interviewed several times, medically examined, kit reorganised and generally messed about for a week. According to my pay book, I was a Sgt. Air Gunner, u/t Wireless Operator, and at one interview I was told that this could not be so. Either I could stay as a Sgt. A-G or lose my tapes and become an AC2 u/t Wireless op., eventually doing a wireless op. course. It was emphasised that the whole business of training was highly organised into streams, and once in the main stream it was better to drift with it rather than to try and change course. Streams could not cross, but only merge. All very academic and enlightening so it was agreed that u/t wireless op. would be deleted from my paybook, and of course, having done a couple of tours as a rear gunner I could always apply for a wireless course.
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That's what the man said and I was in no position to argue, 'Just a couple of tours'.
A week later we were on leave, and Hilda met me at Waterloo after just over a year apart. We had a few hours in London before going up to Barnoldswick to take my mother by surprise. After five rather hectic days of visiting relatives and friends we returned to London and met Hilda's parents and relatives, for just one day before returning to Bournemouth.
We were billeted in an attic at Ocean Lodge and took our meals at the Vale Royal. The food was the most unappetising and uninteresting we had seen in the R.A.F. so far. Life in Bournemouth consisted entirely of parades, square bashing, P.T. drill, lectures and swimming, each activity taking place some miles away from the previous one.
Bournemouth was full of sprog air crews, 90% Sergeants, few realised what the future might hold, and; in retrospect, I don't recall even thinking about it.
We were clear of Bournemouth on the 2nd. of October, and posted to 25 O.T.U., Finningley. near Doncaster.
The first 14 days were spent in lectures, practical work on guns in the armoury, and in firing on various ranges. We were introduced to the FN20 rear turret and relieved to have the opportunity of stripping the .303 Browning guns. We who had trained in Rhodesia did not advertise the fact that we had never actually seen a real Browning gun, only a wooden model, all our air-firing having been carried out on V.G.O.'s [Vickers Gas Operated) guns. We had spent several hours in a turret on the ground in Rhodesia. A Boulton & Paul electrically operated mid-upper type as fitted to a Defiant but bearing no resemblance to the rear turrets of Wellingtons and Whitleys.
11th. November was relatively peaceful at Finningley. In the world outside the Allies had landed in North Africa and occupied the coastal strip from Casablanca, through Oran to 50 miles east of Algiers where the big build-up was taking place. Jerry was being pushed towards Tunisia and Rommel's Afrika Corps was in full retreat in Libya, having been pushed out of Egypt, The Huns marched into hitherto unoccupied France and hard fighting was still going on in Stalingrad. Madagascar was in British hands. My diary records that Jerry lost over 600 aircraft in two days, according to the B.B.C. Nearer home I also recorded that "I flew today for the first time with my pilot, Sgt. Rutherford, and with Sgt. Bishop, W/optr., on circuits and bumps. Our Navigator Allan Willoughby is at Bircotes doing cross-countries". For some of us the pace was slow, and some of the time was spent in 'Brains Trust' sessions. Here a team of experts would sit on the platform and questions on any subject would be asked by the rest of us. In reply to the question "How do you think we should deal with the Huns after the war?", the M.O. replied "Castrate the bloody lot, the R.A.M.C. could do that in only a couple of weeks". Most of the discussions however were in a more serious vain. Over this period the weather was not very good. No 14 Course crews have been helping the Landgirls digging up potatoes and 12 Course chaps were heaving coal, We then had coal and coke allocated and delivered to our billets, which eliminated the need to pinch it from the Officers' Mess. we were accomodated [sic] in the peace-time married quarters close to their Mess.
One of our Wimpies from Bircotes crashed into a Beaufighter near Caernarvon where my sister was stationed in the W.A.A.F. There were no
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[photograph]
[photograph] [underlined] REG WHELLAMS [/underlined]] 1333520
[underlined] AT 25 OTU FINNINGLEY [/underlined]
(10 FORSTER RD. WALTHEMSTOW E.17 )
16A
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survivors. A Defiant crashed near my home in Barnoldswick and we pressed on with the routine of local flying, stripping nothing more interesting than guns, and lectures and so on.
My diary records that on the 9th. December, after a little over two months we were taken by lorry to Bircotes to fly as a crew. Losses were high, on a Bullseye on London we lost three aircraft. One of them apparently ditched without trace near the French Coast, the only clue to this being their dinghy which would have been released automatically striking the water. A second crew headed by Ft/Lt. Anneckstein crashed into the watch office, killing the Bomb Aimer who was stretched out in the bombing position. A third crew crashed on landing at Bircotes, without fatality, but with the crew rather shaken-up. We were living Nissen huts about 2 miles from the 'hangars' and 3/4 mile from the in the other direction. The place was a sea of mud in parts and we generally washed AFTER breakfast for some reason which eludes me after 45 years
One point in favour of Bircotes, it was on the Great North Road and just before Christmas I enjoyed a 48 hr. leave with Hilda in London! I met Tommy King in Battersea who was a Rear Gunner on Halifaxes with three ops. to his credit, all to Italy. A brief respite and back to Bircotes. The flying aspect was proving more interesting now, I could see a little beyond my own situation and get involved to some extent in the general carry-on of working as a crew. We had a first-class Skipper, Sgt. Stan. Rutherford, a down-to-earth tough New Zealand sheep farmer. Our Navigator Allan Willoughby from the West country whom we regarded as the Academic member of the crew, but who suffered greatly from air sickness. On those occasions our Bomb Aimer Stan Chadderton from Liverpool took over the navigation without any problems. Stan trained as an Observer - which included both Bomb aiming and Navigating in the U.S.A. and we were thus very fortunate in having a standby navigator. Our Wireless Operator Harry Dyson was from Huddersfield possibly the socialite of the crew, and fancied his chances in the rear turret, giving me a welcome change on occasions.
I started the New Year well by having four runaway guns, over Missen, the bombing range, splattering a main road. The safety catches were 'off' and the guns ready for instant action almost all the time the air, and the reason the guns fired has not been fully explained. I vaguely put it down to a build-up of hydraulic pressure in the triggering system. This did not fool the Armourers who put it down finger trouble on my part - literally.
By the 7th. of Jan. we had completed all our day-flying details of cross-countries, bombing, air firing etc. and were suddenly posted to 30 O.T.U. Hixon, in Staffordshire to complete the night flying excercises [sic] . It took three days visiting various sections to obtain signatures on a Clearance Certificate before we were free of Finningly [sic] , and the after we arrived at Hixon, we were despatched to the satellite airfield at Seighford. A week later we were still without aircraft at Seighford and when the Skipper, Navigator and W/op went to Finningley to collect one, Stan Chadderton & I took French leave and shot off to see respective Hildas. It was on that leave that Hilda and I decided to get married and arranged for bans to be called in Seighford and Battersea.
On the 24th. Jan, our night-flying excercises [sic] almost completed we enjoyed a new experience. We were put on the battle order and briefed for an attack on Lorient. Everything was rushed and finally when
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boarding the aircraft -which was u/s-, the raid -or our part in it- was cancelled. We were to have dropped six 500 lb. bombs in 10/10ths cloud and were warned about the fighters and lots of flak. We found later that the Americans had bombed Lorient in the afternoon followed by 121 aircraft of Bomber Command that night. One Stirling was lost. In early Feb. we were doing a 6 hour cross-country operational excercise [sic] simulating a real trip and towards the end of it were joyfully bombing what was thought to be our target on the bombing range. After dropping two sticks of 11 1/2 lb. practice bombs the "target" lights were extinguished and although we remained over them for a further 20 minutes they did not come on again. Thirty minutes later "W" William landed at base amid great consternation. Apparently the O. C. Night Flying had thought we were lost and had been sending up rockets. These were seen by the Stafford Fire Brigade who came dashing out to Seighford expecting a major disaster. On reporting to the Watch Office the Skipper was congratulated upon a successful bombing attack on Hixon aerodrome.
A few nights previously Jock King and crew had crash-landed on the Yorkshire moors. They were over the North sea, badly iced up and losing height gradually until they ran out of it on the moor. The aircraft was a complete write-off and the Rear Gunner very badly injured by the Brownings crashing into his chest. On the 7th. Feb. the whole crew went to the local church and heard the Banns called. Two aircraft were lost from our unit the previous night, one piled straight in at Hixon, all killed, and Sgt. Browning bounced off the runway and finished upside down in the adjacent field. The 11th. Feb. was my 21st. Birthday and the Crew got absolutely sloshed in Eccleshall. It was a memorable party and the Skipper and Bomb Aimer got themselves lost on the way home and spent part of the night in a ditch. On the 14th. we completed the last of our cross-country details. The pages of my diary covering this trip are indistinct having been submerged in water in 1949, but there were problems. The first 4 hours were spent on accurately flown courses, but there was difficulty in keeping to specific heights. The aircraft seemed to climb and alternately lose height for no explicable reason and this distracted the Skipper from the required accuracy. Eventually with only 60 gallons of fuel indicated, the Skipper called "Darky Darky this is Nemo xx .....". Up came a 'gate' of two searchlights and signalled the direction of a friendly runway. 10 minutes later we all developed an instant inferiority complex, we had landed at Wyton, the home of 109 Squadron Pathfinders. One Wellington Mk.111 bombed up with four small practice bombs, was parked amid Lancasters, Mosquitoes and B17 Fortresses. However we were made very welcome and at 0400 hrs. thoroughly enjoyed the bacon, egg, fried sausages, toast and marmalade etc. Had I known then, that 40 years hence I would be retired and settled within 4 miles of Wyton I would have been a happier man. Aircraft on the first raid of the war had taken off from Wyton. The next two weeks were very active with little actually achieved. We were briefed almost every day for something which was cancelled every time but with one exception. We were told to do an air test on an aircraft which was parked near the perimeter fence. The rear turret was almost touching the fence at the other side of which was a haystack and chicken coop. The ground was muddy and rather more revs than usual were needed to free the wheels and move the aircraft forward. The hurricane strength wind created completely demolished the hen coop and the haystack, and many of the hens became airborne as never before. There
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was no time for recriminations however, on landing we went straight to the briefing room and learned we, were on a Nickel that night. The Oxford Dictionary gives a different meaning, but to Air Crews 'Nickel' is a generic term for a bum fodder or leaflet raid. It did imply that someone had some confidence in us, maybe. The target was Paris.
At last we were over enemy-occupied territory, still on our side of the Rhine, and still a long way from it, but we were getting nearer and there was no lack of confidence, at least initially. Problems developed, first my ring-sight ferrel broke off, so there was no hope of accurate aiming if attacked, then my intercom microphone ceased to function. The fault was later found in the Rotating Service Joint below the turret. We had a standby signalling system of push button and lamp, but that too was out of order for the same reason. I could hear the skipper calling me on a routine check but had no means of replying. Receiving no reply, Barry Dyson crawled back to the rear turret to check up, not knowing what to expect. He had overlooked the fact that we were at 15.000 feet - the highest we had been at that time- and almost passed out due to lack of oxygen. He reconnected his adapter to the system just in time. He was also inadequately clothed for a temperature of -18C but putting 1800 lbs of leaflets down the flare chute restored his circulation. Di banged on the turret door and we exchanged greetings. He returned to his office and reporting my situation to the Skipper. Meanwhile I was incommunicado for the rest of the trip, but I could hear the others conversing. Shortly after that I felt the rotation of the turret was becoming sluggish and I tried to fire a short burst. Three of the guns fired one round each and then stopped, but number one was working. I cocked and recocked the guns several times, tried firing them manually and eventually three were working. I fired a short burst and regained a little confidence. An hour after leaving Paris the turret rotation would not respond to the hydraulics so I ensured that manual operation was still possible. I knew that to bale out I would have to open the turret doors, then the aircraft bulkhead door, grab my parachute pack, drag it through both doors and into the turret, rotate the turret onto the beam, fit the 'chute, open the doors, disconnect the intercom and oxygen and go out backwards. I decided to give it a try except for actually bailing out - and decided it was probably not feasible in the time available, but I did get the parachute into the turret and tucked it down the side. I learned a lot that night, more had gone wrong in my department on that one trip than during all my training. Di learned the odd lesson too, to wear more clothing in case he had to move away from the hot air system under his table.
The following day we were advised that our O.T.U. course was completed and the Skipper was asked to state the crew's preference either to join a squadron bombing Germany or to go overseas. Our preference for Germany was unanimous; after all, I was getting married and most of us had already been overseas!. And so we went our separate ways on 7 days leave
March 1st, 1943 perhaps the most important day of my life, Hilda and I were married. Staying at Hilda's home I took my cousin Frank to Trafalgar Square and showed him the Lancaster bomber, then on to St. Pauls Churchyard where I used to work and showed him a Stirling Bomber. He was thrilled with London and with the aircraft in particular. At 1pm we met Mum and Topsy at duCane Court and lunched in Balham, and whilst Mum and the others went to meet Hilda's folks, I went on to the Church,
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St. Mary's in Battersea. Some years later when I saw the photographs I realised I was wearing a white shirt with my airman's uniform. Hilda joined me at the Alter [sic] and looked absolutely lovely in her white wedding dress. The service was grand and the organist played two hymns. The church bells remained silent, they were reserved for signalling a possible enemy invasion. We enjoyed a wonderful reception at Hilda's home and on Monday we went to Lancing on honeymoon, the guests of Mr. & Mrs. Pittock at 10 Orchard Avenue. After a few days at Lancing I returned to camp and somehow organised more leave. At 0300 on the 10th. however the police delivered a telegram-which stated "Report to Hixon immediately, posted overseas". I tried to convince them that it was a joke on the part of the crew, and I was not stationed at Hixon in any case. However, at 0700 Hilda accompanied me to Euston where we said goodbye on the platform for the last time for several months at least. One night spent at Hixon, and the following day we travelled by train with two other crews to no. 1 P.D.C. West Kirby.
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[photograph] [photograph]
1st. MARCH 1943 (WHITE SHIRT) 25 O.T.U. FINNINGLEY
[photograph]
SECOND HONEYMOON SEPT ‘43
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[underlined] SECOND TIME TO AFRICA [/underlined]
At West Kirby we handed in our blue uniforms and were issued with army Khaki battle dress and tropical flying bowlers and helmets. Within a few days we embarked on a Dutch Vessel, the Johan van Vanderbilt in the Mersey, and were allocated first and second class cabins still equipped to. peace-time standards. Service in the Dining Hall was fabulous, staffed by natives from the Nederlands [sic] East Indies. The cuisine was superb, there was white bread and butter and sugar on the tables. A full breakfast at 0800, a peacetime lunch at 1300, tea at 1630 and dinner at 1900. Coffee was available in the Snr. N.C.O's lounge at any time during the morning. The Army Privates' quarters were similar to those we had experienced on the Moultan, sleeping in the same place as they eat, scrubbing everything by 0830 and with lots of bull. They had to wear greatcoats at all times whilst on deck and carry their life-jackets and water bottles. They not only manned the guns but were also detailed for lots of guard duties. Everything seemed to be guarded, but the reason was generally obscure. The cabins were shared with the Army Snr. N.C.O.s and they felt it quite a change to enjoy such comfort. The main topic of conversation was speculation about our destination, North Africa, Middle East or Far East? At a lecture on the 20th. March a senior Army Officer gave us a talk in the big second-class lounge, a very interesting run-down on the state of the war in all theatres. He dealt at some length with the North African campaign and said that very shortly the 1st. and 8th. Armies would meet and a few days after that Jerry would be slung right out of Africa. He wanted to dispel all rumours that we were part of a force invading the south of France. I cannot recall whether we were actually told in so many words, but we expected our destination was either Algiers or Bone.
The armourment [sic] on the Johann was comparatively small. We had about 10 Lewis guns, .303 calibre, and a naval gun at the stern, all manned by the army. There were about 16 ships in the convoy, with troops and cargo, protected by 5 Cruisers and Destroyers, and 2 Corvettes. Not as impressive perhaps as in August 1941, but a more wartime environment.
It was a feeling not entirely new to us, we knew by calculation that it was the 21st. of March and we were sitting comfortably in the First Class Lounge enjoying a coffee, but whereabouts on the Atlantic ocean was the ship? We know we had been heading east all morning so the chances. were we are heading for Gibralter [sic] , it was not warm enough for Freetown to be our destination. Where we were bound was open to speculation like most other vital factors affecting us. What were we going to do when we get to wherever it was? We were a Wellington crew which did not rule out finding ourselves on a Boston or Mitchell doing close army support work. And what after we had completed a tour of ops.? Chad the Bomb Aimer and Di the Wireless op. were both keen to remuster and train as Pilots. Allan Willoughby said he was 'marlish' and quite happy to carry on navigating. I felt the war would be over before we had finished our first tour. The Skipper said little but probably thought we were a bunch of dreamers, comparing us with his sheep back in N.Z.. We were not in fact approaching Gibralter [sic] , we had passed through the Straits during the night.
At 0300 on the 22nd. we were approaching the minefield off Algiers and were attacked by a Ju88 torpedo bomber. We heard the Johan's guns open up
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and the Windsor Castle received a direct hit from a torpedo on her stern, three members of her crew being killed. She also lost her steering and means of propulsion. Efforts were made to tow her into Oran without success but she sank at 1700 the same day. The Service personnel and remainder of the crew were taken aboard destroyers. Hurricanes arrived within minutes of the attack, but just too late and not ideal aircraft for the job at 0300 hrs. My diary - written up a few days after the event,- refered [sic] originally to The Duchess of Windsor and this was changed a few years later to the Windsor Castle.
There was no longer any secrecy about our destination. Di said the R.A.F. had opened an O.T.U. in Algiers, and we were destined to do another course. There were lots of rumours, but one fact was established, we had been in the R.A.F. over two years and we felt it was high time we did something towards the war effort.
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At 0300hrs. on the 23rd. March we were paraded on deck thankful for our greatcoats, which we were still wearing with great discomfort when we disembarked at 1100. A brief stop at an Aircrew Reception Centre, a large hotel on the sea-front, before going to the Aircrew Pool at Surcouf, about 30 miles from Algiers. There was no great feeling of urgency here, the Allies had landed at Algiers on the 6th. of November and the Germans had already been driven some hundreds of miles, to the East.
It was just a matter of waiting, something that most servicemen became very good at. We could not take the initiative and start our own war, but could only make the best of it. Quoting from my diary, "Life at Surcouf is perfect, we share the officers' mess and enjoy typical French peacetime meals. Lots of Bully Beef but the Chef - a French Civilian - certainly knows how to camouflage it. Our chalet is literally on the beach and the sea never more than 20 yards away. We could swim all day long without the formality of swimming trunks, or walk around the village. Sometimes we hitch-hike Into Algiers". There was very little to do in the village, and I recorded that I found the French very unhelpful and generally impolite. We all carried side-arms of course. There was practically nothing to buy except strange local booze, the Americans had seen to all that when they passed through, and the bars seemed to be open all the time. Algeria was, politically, a part of Metropolitan France in the eyes of the French, it was home to many Frenchmen, and they probably realised it might never be quite the same again. After a three-week rest at Surcouf we reported to 150 Squadron at Blida, about 30 miles south of Algiers. This place was most certainly at war, there were Wellingtons, Hudsons, Hurricanes, Commandoes and Albacores for squadrons of Bomber, Coastal, Fighter and Transport Commands, and the Fleet Air Arm. With the exception of Transports and 142 and 150 Wellington Squadrons, all aircraft were controlled by Coastal Command. We were part of the North Africa Striking Force - so we were told. Life was good at Blida, most of the food was tinned and we enjoyed eggs and bully beef every day in the mess. Generally in the evenings we would have a fry-up of eggs and bread with more bully on the primus stove in the billet. The Mess Hall was used as both dining hall and lounge. The arabs wandered round the camp selling eggs and oranges but prefered [sic] to exchange them for food -- more bully beef.
The currency in use was the French Franc with an exchange rate of 200 to the £1 sterling in which we were paid. BMA (British Military Authority) notes were also in use but the most popular currency outside the town was the tin of bully. We were billeted in chalets formerly the peacetime living quarters of the French Air Force. Each chalet had four large rooms-and accommodated two Wellington crews. It was very pleasant to sit out on the verandah [sic] . My rather battered diary records that on the 28th. March 1943 we were discussing what we proposed to do on completion of our first tour. Rather naive, we would have little or no say in the matter. We had been allocated an aircraft, "F" for Freddie, but it was a case of one crew to one aircraft and its present owners had not quite finished their tour and were reluctant to part with it. For two days they had been bombing and straffing [sic] a large German convoy bound for Bizerta which was not left alone even when part of it had docked. We finally took over the aircraft and for five days were airborne for several hours each day. On the afternoon of the 5th. April we took off
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in "F" for Freddie for an hour's fighter affiliation excercise [sic] with two Hurricanes. Employing violent evasive action to make things difficult for the fighters, we crossed the coast about 10 miles east of Algiers at 3000 feet and passed directly over a British destroyer. The Navy was wide awake and saw a heavy bomber being chased by two Hurricanes, immediately opened fire on us with considerable light flak. The pilot of a third Hurricane which was on an operational patrol saw the mini-battle and joined in. When he saw that one of his chums was only 100 yards from my rear turret and happy to stay there, he realised that we were in a different ball game, peeled off and, carried on with his patrol, finally returning to Maison Blanche.
On the night of the 6th. April we bombed the Marshelling [sic] yards at TUNIS, with 3500 lb. and 54 30 lb. incendiaries. We bombed in one stick from 8000 ft. and surprisingly were held in searchlights which we lost at 3000 feet. Not a very good effort on our part, the bombs overshot the target but hit the aerodrome 3 miles north according to the timing point photograph. All 28 aircraft returned safely, two of them damaged There was little light flak but some heavy stuff said to be radar controlled. For an hour on the return journey I changed places with Harry Dyson, our Wireless op. On the 7th. we attacked troop concentrations at night making several bombing passes at low level and finally coming in very low firing 7 Brownings. Chad the bomb aimer used the two guns in the front turret, I had four in the rear and we carried beam guns on these occasions. Only the front gunner could see what he was firing at. One aircraft of 142 Squadron, G George was shot down by light flak. On the 10th. we raided MONSERRATO aerodrome in Sardinia, an aircraft was seen over the target with navigation lights on, visibility was good and we moved away hoping the runway lights would be switched in. The aerodrome remained in darkness and we dropped our bombs singly. There was no light flack from the aerodrome to worry us, and the aircraft with lights on was not seen again. After a further 30 minutes of stooging about we returned to Blida. There was a reasonable amount of heavy flak which we learned on return had downed one aircraft of 142 Squadron. - 2 in 2 nights-. On the way back a searchlight opened up a few miles ahead and the skipper put the nose down so we were at 2000 ft. when we passed directly over the searchlight. Stan Chadderton in the front turret opened fire and the Skipper told me when to open up, aiming straight down. The light stayed on after we had passed, pointing vertically, maybe we did a little damage, probably not. Inside the aircraft however, the dive had caused the Elsan lavatory to come loose and scatter it's contents over the floor.
The following morning, fearing the wrath of the ground crew when they saw the Elsan, we stayed in bed until noon and breakfasted in the billet. Eggs and fried potatoes, fried bread and tinned pears and fresh oranges, served by the wireless op. and rear gunner to the Skipper and the rest of the crew still in bed. In the afternoon we were stood down and Joe Shields (Sgt. Rimmer's Rear Gunner) and I went into Blida to try and find presents to take back to England. The bigger French shops were all closed - no stocks- and we scrounged around the Arab quarters, without success. I mentioned earlier that we always carried side-arms and several times we were crowded by the Arabs. Production of the revolver dispersed them but it could have been very tricky.
On the 14th. April we raided MONSERRATO for the second time, the first run-in at 8000 feet and then 6000 feet. Direct hits were seen on
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the aerodrome this time with 1000 and 250 pounders. No incendiaries were dropped but 10 minutes was spent 8 miles north of the town dropping leaflets. The leaflets were the "laissez-passer" type printed in German instead of the more usual Italian. An aircraft over the target area sporting an orange light seemed to be signalling to a searchlight. We assumed it was acting as a decoy for a night-fighter and the only one of us keeping an eye on it was the navigator standing at the astrodome.
The rest of us searched the allocated parts of the sky according to the book!. All our aircraft returned safely and reported good aiming. Photographs confirmed the success, but we had borrowed "M" Mother which was without a camera. The return journey was uneventful and crossing Mare Nostrum Di tuned in to the 9 o-clock news from London. The announcer Alvar Lidell read "Algiers reports that the R.A.F. Strategical Airforce in North Africa has continued to batter aerodromes in Tunisia and Sardinia, damaging runways and destroying aircraft on the ground, without loss to themselves". Someone remarked "That's one way of looking at it"!. Actually a few nights ago 142 Sqdn. had lost 2 in 2 nights. 150 Squadron had lost one but the crew bailed out. Four of the crew managed to get through the enemy lines but the Rear Gunner was wounded and there was no news of him for several weeks.
The docks at TUNIS received our attention on the night of the 17th. April, with very careful placing of 500 and 250 pounders. Direct hits were observed in the docks area and there was concentrated heavy flack. It didn't worry us, we were well below it at 6000 feet. There was lots of light flack mostly concentrated on an aircraft displaying red and green navigation lights. At one stage this aircraft came to within 600 yards on the starboard beam and we converged to about 300 yards. We clearly identified it as a Wellington and gave it a long inaccurate burst from the rear turret. On this occasion every fourth round was a tracer. The nav. lights were extinguished and the aircraft was not seen again. There was no satisfactory explanation as to the identity of this aircraft. A captured Wellington perhaps acting as a decoy but attracting most of the flak. Possibly one of ours with the lights switched on accidentally, one shall never know. Two aircraft are missing, piloted by Sgt. Chandler of 150 and Sgt. Lee of 142. One sent out an SOS and ditched but there was no signal from the other. On our return to Blida there was a blanket of cloud over the whole area and our 23 aircraft were diverted to Maison Blanche. One aircraft was known to have a damaged undercarriage, which collapsed on touch-down and was a write-off but there were no injuries. Road Transport was waiting to take us the 30 miles or so back to Blida and we finally got to bed at 6 am. We shared the lorry with Sgt. Leckie's crew who had bailed out over Tunisia on the 14th. The Squadron Leader had flown to Sousse and brought them back to Algeria. Leckie had himself crash-landed the aircraft with no hydraulics and only one engine, somewhere in Allied-occupied Tunisia.
On the 23rd. April my diary records a tedious week of activity which achieved very little. Every day we were briefed for a night op. and every day we did our Daily Inspections and air tests, but in the late afternoon the Sirocco came up suddenly and the trips were cancelled. During the week, two Albemarles crashed on the runway, both from Gibralter [sic] carrying supplies which included mail from U.K.
Our uniform since leaving West Kirby has been British Army Khaki but with shoes and no putees. Our R.A.F. blue shirts with collar and tie and also blue forage caps were not exchanged. We have no tropical
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kit and it is getting very warm here. Our aircraft "F" for Freddie, has been grounded all week with "G" George, both with a trimming box problem. The policy is still one crew to an aircraft, and we enjoyed a very easy week. On the 28th. we managed to borrow "D" Donald and bombed DECIMONANU again, this time with a 4000 lb. 'blockbuster’ and a few incendiaries for good measure. After bombing we stooged around for 30 minutes having a close look at fires on the ground. Searchlights waved about apparently aimlessly and the light flack with tracer seemed equally haphazard. At 3000 feet we were caught by one searchlight and within seconds were held in a cone of five. The lights were dazzling and the three of us manning guns all fired point blank, it being impossible to aim. In theory a combined rate of fire of over 8000 rounds per minute should have hit something worth while, but after a very short burst my four guns jammed, a problem seldom experienced. At only 3000 feet we were quickly out of range of the searchlights. We were over Blida at 0700 hours which was covered in fog and diverted again to Mason Blanche. We were not very popular at Maison B, everyone had-their own problems which were not always appreciated by others on different types of aircraft performing widely differing types of work. We were in bed at Maison B. by 1000 hrs. probably without the knowledge of the 'owners' of the beds who had spent the night in then; and there we stayed until 1700. The tinned steak pie for tea made a very welcome change. Our aircraft "F" for Freddie still had a faulty-trimming box.
It was only in the air we were able to listen to the Radio News from London, although we had a reasonable supply of current newspapers brought out by the steady stream of aircraft from U.K. On the 29th. we logged another trip to BIZERTA, this time in "T" Tommy with a 4000 pounder. Take-off was at 0005 hours and the weather the worst for flying we had yet experienced in Africa. The target was the docks and all was unusually quiet. The coast-line was visible through about 4/10ths cloud and on our first run over the docks we dropped incendiaries. Positive identification of the target, so round again to release the 4000 pounder which the press were refering [sic] to as 'cookies'. It seemed that over Germany the lads were dropping 8000 pounders. The flak and searchlights opened up simultaneously and was relatively intense. We found later that we were the first to bomb. Some had difficulty in finding the target due to cloud and the enemy was trying not to attract our attention. Again there was low cloud at Blida and we were diverted to Maison Blanche. Two aircraft were lost on the Bizerta raid, one landed at Bone (now renamed Annaba) with one engine u/s, and a 142 Sqdn. aircraft did a belly-landing on the grass at Maison B. On our return we found that Sgt. Leckie, operational again after being shot down in Tunisia, had crashed into the mountain immediately after take-off. Another 150 Sqdn aircraft crashed on take-off, barely getting airborne, and it was assumed that he had engine failure. Two of the crew actually survived the explosion. It had been a fateful night, we were briefed for take-off from west to east, with a left turn onto course. Just before take-off a strong wind developed from the west causing the duty runway to be changed from 09 to 27 and we took off from east to west. Sgt. Leckie turned left instead of right, straight into. the Atlas mountains, all killed instantly. Our own Bomb Aimer Stan had flown on a raid with Sgt. Leckie only two nights previously. When I revisited Blida on business in 1978 I was astonished to appreciate just how near those mountains were to Blida aerodrome..
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[photograph] WITH HILDA & THE SKIPPER SEPT ’43 RICHMOND ON THAMES
[photograph] BILL WILLOUGHBY NAVIGATOR AT THE PORT BEAM GUN POSITION
[photograph] NAVIGATOR & BOMB AIMER IN THEIR PITS
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The following morning an aircraft of 142 was seen to be making a peculiar approach, and just before touchdown. one engine cut and the other was going flat out, resulting in a spectacular disintegration at the side of the runway, in which no-one was seriously hurt. By the end of April we had four aircraft all Wellington Mk.10s equipped for carrying 4000 pound bombs. Bomb doors had been removed and they were said to have a special main spar.
On the 5th. May it was farewell to Blida, the war was moving east. Each crew was issued with a First World War Bell tent and this together with official stores and personal effects was piled into the aircraft. I remember the Wireless Op. Di and I putting our (stolen) palliases [sic] aboard for our Ground-crew passengers to rest on during the flight. A very thoughtful act on our part said the Skipper. It was just that Di and I intended to sleep in the manner to which we were accustomed. Our destination was Fontaine Chaude, about 250 Kms. ESE of Blida. About half way in deference to our guests we opened a tin of spam and served slices of spam followed by stewed plums from a large tin we had been hoarding. Our destination was a stretch of desert near a tiny village. After landing we pitched our tent and organised our palliases [sic] into beds with the help of a dozen or so empty boxes. Meanwhile vehicles were arriving with our squadron personnel, more stores, aircraft and by late evening we had a small township. A small marquee served as a Sgts. Mess and on the first evening we enjoyed stew and green peas followed by pears and real cream. These had been provided by the Americans on an emergency basis. The following day was spent partly on an aerodrome inspection. The war had passed through Fontaine Chaude and it was possible the Arab scavengers had overlooked bits of war material which could do damage to aircraft, particularly the tyres. There were no runways, only sand with some coarse grass.
Back to war next day and Group Captain (Speedy) Powell briefed us for a raid on TRIPANI, a naval base in Sicily. We were 30 minutes late on take-off due to delays in bombing-up. We carried only six 500 pounders instead of eight, and some incendiaries. We were 20 minutes behind the bomber stream of 26 Wellingtons. 'The bomber stream'!. This was an expression used by a newly joined crew who were very displeased with having to finish their tour in North Africa after starting it over Europe. They treated our desert war with some contempt after their recent experiences over Germany, but were reported missing about three weeks after joining us. We were in cloud shortly after take-off and nearing the target came out of it at 12,000 feet. We moved over towards a concentration of heavy flak bursts and the bomb aimer thought he had found a pinpoint through breaks in the cloud. The bombs were dropped into the area of flashes and fires on the ground but it was not a satisfactory raid. We lost two aircraft. One was seen to go down in flames over the target having been coned by searchlights. Sgt. Pax Smith, a New Zealander and crew ran out of fuel in pitch darkness and had strayed too far to the west, over Algeria. My diary records "They bailed out in an airmanlike manner but the Bomb Aimer was concussed and the Rear Gunner broke both legs on hitting the ground and rolling down the side of a hill. Three of the crew are in the rest camp at Constantine and the two inured in hospital in Algiers".
The reader might be surprised at apparent navigation errors such as this, but the only nav. aid available was a QDM (course to steer) to reach in this case Algiers, which would not have helped. We had no M/F
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Beacons on which to take bearings. The Navigator worked on his dead reckoning plot backed up by a visual pinpoint from the bomb aimer map-reading if visibility was suitable. Quite often the only aid was the Rear Gunner taking a drift reading from his turret. Over the sea the Wireless op. would drop a flame-float down the flare chute, which would burst into flames on striking the sea. The Rear. gunner would rotate his turret and depress the guns, holding the flame in his ringsight for ten seconds, then read off the drift on the indicator by his side. There was sometimes a drift indicator in the 'Nav. Office' also. The same procedure was used over the desert during the day using a smoke bomb in place of a flamefloat.
We learned that Sgt. Leckie who was killed hitting the mountain was Commissioned two weeks before his death and had also been awarded a D.F.C. for his crash-landing in Tunisia. So Sgt. Leckie was really P/O Leckie D.F.C. and didn't know it, but the end result was the same. He and our own Skipper, Sgt. Rutherford 416170 R.N.Z.A.F. had been great buddies for a long time. (or what was regarded as a long time in those days)
May 10 my diary states, a Boomerang lastnight. We took-off with a 4500 pound payload for delivery to PALERMO, the Capital of Sicily. About 30 min. after take-off the petrol cover on the port fuel tank came open and the Skipper had great difficulty in keeping the left wing up. There was no option but to jettison half the bomb load in the sea and return to base. There was an enemy air-raid in progress at Bone and we kept a few miles to the east of it with the I.F.F. on. Our own night-fighters operating from Maison Blanche were known to be very active and we had great faith in our I.F.F. We were first back of course - not really having been anywhere!- and we waited for the others in the debriefing tent. To no avail, they had been diverted and returned the following afternoon. We enjoyed an afternoon and evening off, and went by lorry to Batna, a small town about 30 miles from our base. There was little to be seen and nothing to buy and no sign of any social activity. Conversation with the natives was difficult and they were not interested in the war.
On the night of the 12th. it was the turn of NAPLES again, 21 aircraft with 90,000 lbs. payload bombed within five minutes of each other. It was a lovely night, visibility 30 miles and not a cloud in the sky. As we approached Naples we could clearly see Mt. Vesuvius and convinced ourselves we could see the thin column of smoke drifting from it. Our last pinpoint on the way out was the Isle of Capri and we gave it a short burst of .303 for good measure. A futile act but the guns had to be fired occasionally. At NAPLES we went straight in, the target was clearly visible and the one stick straddled the railway yards and industrial area. My diary records that flak was intense and said to be some of the hottest in Europe, and reading that after a lapse of 45 years causes me to question the authority for such a statement. It was a small target compared to some of those in Central Europe, and the 40 searchlights at Napoli were quite effective, but would have been more so if it had been dark. All our aircraft returned safely after a 7 1/2 hour flight, not a bad effort for Wimpies with no overload tanks. As the W/op describes it, we climbed into our pits just as dawn was breaking. By 0900 we had the option of discarding our mosquito nets and being pestered by the insects, or enjoying a turkish bath due to the heat. Our 1916 vintage bell-tent was reasonable for our crew of five although in earlier times it accomodated [sic] , goodness knows how, 22 soldiers.
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At about 1400 we were happy to get airborne again on an air test where we could cool down, but at 1700 it was briefing again. A "maximum effort" - another phrase. imported from our colleagues bashing away in Central and Northern Europe, on CAGLIARI, a port and industrial town in Sardinia. All 26 aircraft were over the target area within minutes of each other, again visibility was near perfect. Bombing heights were staggered and we bombed from 6000 feet. Our 4000 pounder landed just north of the railway yards among some tall buildings and started a fire. Our W/op Harry Dyson claimed at debriefing that he could feel the heat from our own fire when we turned in again to see the damage. Di was prone to exaggeration by this time, perhaps due to frustration of monitoring broadcasts from Base and seldom touching the morse key. We came back over the target at 2000 feet and the flames were leaping high. We could still see the flames from 70 miles away at 8000 feet on our way home. Listening to the B.B.C. we learned that American bombers had raided Cagliari earlier that day, "wiping the place out". They also claimed they could still see fires burning when they reached the African coast. In daylight too; our W/op was not alone in the exaggeration stakes. However, it was a very satisfactory raid. We were in a shallow dive when the bomb was released and is thought to have scraped the fuselage under the aircraft where there was damage to the geodetics and six feet of fabric had been torn off.
On the 15th. our crew was stood down for 24 hours and I received four letters from Hilda, the first for many weeks. At this rate of completing ops I should be home in less than three months. It was very tiring night after night, particularly as is [sic] was not possible to sleep comfortably in the heat of the day. The target was PALERMO, and three of our 25 aircraft failed to return, including Sgt. Rimmer, and Sgt. Alazrachi, the latter a Free French pilot. It is not known what happened to any of them except that one aircraft was seen to go down in flames over the target. Rimer's Rear Gunner was Joe Shields, one of the best, and the crew had been with us since O.T.U. at Finningley. Polfrey the Navigator, Cave the Bombadier [sic] and Jack Waters the Wireless-op, all very keen types.
On the 16th. it was our turn to make a fragment of history. For the very first time, the R.A.F. bombed ROME. Rome, we were told was an open undefended city, and we were briefed to fly from the mouth of the River Tiber, over the city dropping leaflets, and return at 5000 feet dropping more leaflets, then bomb the LIDO DI ROMA near the mouth of the Tiber. Our first bomb went in the river and the last one in the sea, but the rest of the stick neatly straddled the buildings at the Seaplane Base. Over the city itself, there was considerable light flack with tracer, aiming point- blank without result. Not bad at all far an open undefended city, but we were forbidden to display any hostility except dropping leaflets. Even the lids of the Small Bomb Containers loaded with leaflets were secured with wire so as not to fall on the Romans. Later the B.B.C. claimed there was no flak over Rome.
An easier trip the following night which after the event gave me a slight suggestion of a guilty conscience for the the [sic] very first (and last) time.
"Your target" said the Group Captain, "is the German 'U' Boat refuelling Base at ALGHERO, in Sardinia, put paid to it". Our bomb load was 7 x 500 pounders, 4 S.B.C.'s of 30 lb. incendiaries and 2 x 250 pound bombs. We overflew the target at 4000 feet and first dropped several sacks of
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leaflets. These were in Italian and told the people of Alghera that when we very shortly occupied their country and liberated them from the beastly Germans, they would be treated better than ever before, provided with medical aid and food, and every other possible benefit. All we need is a little co-operation and understanding from them. Having spread the gospel, we made three bombing runs over Alghero, at 3000, 1500 and 700 feet, all perfect O.T.U. practice type runs. On the last bombing run, Allan Willoughby manned the port beam gun, Dyson the front turret and the [deleted] the [/deleted] three of us fired our 7 Brownings at point-blank range into the chaos below. The sole opposition comprised two small-calibre machine guns which were soon out of action. Maybe it was a U Boat refuelling base, but only in the sense that it was a small fishing village and happened to have a jetty where drums of oil could be trundled down to a U Boat at the end of it. Our vision of a Sardinian type Lorient or Brest was soon dispelled. The BBC reported 'our bombers based in North Africa attacked targets is Sardinia lastnight'.
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For a couple of days our conversation had centred around an incident over the Lido di Roma. A seaplane base consists mostly of water; on our first run over it we had difficulty in locating the buildings and were hoping to see a tidy straight line of parked seaplanes. The Skipper decided to drop a flare and asked the Wireless Op. to arm no. 1 of 4 already in position in the flarechute. As he removed the safety pin the flare ignited and the top part of it shot through the roof of the aircraft with flames pouring out of the lower end, streaking past the rear turret.
The blinding light startled Stan Chadderton at the Bombing panel and he instantly jettisoned all the flares, undoubtedly preventing a major disaster. How easy it was to be shot down by one's own flare.
According to Intellegence [sic] reports, there were 1,100 casualties in our raid on Cagliari on the 13th., most of them having been caught by a single bomb. This figure is highly suspect but it originated from an Italian report.
On the 21st. it was a stooge over Sicily with 18 250 lb. bombs.
A convoy was within range of the Ju88 Torpedo bombers based in Sicily and our task was to try and keep them on the ground, or if they did manage to take off, prevent them from making an airmanlike landing on return. Aircraft took off singly starting at 1700 hrs.; we were the 24th. at 2045 hrs., with two others to follow. A direct flight to Castelvetrano, identify the aerodrome and one bomb away, then set course for Ciacco, same procedure, and on to Borezzo. If a flare path is seen anywhere give it priority and stooge around in that area for a while. All the bombs were dropped on the three targets and no flarepaths were seen. We concluded there were no enemy landings or take-offs, but one aircraft was seen to go down in flames into the sea; probably Sgt. Williams of our squadron who was on his first mission from Africa, although he had done several over Germany. At Castelvetrano there was lots of light flak using tracer, and we felt the heavy flak in some areas was predicted. We were not experiencing the 'thick carpets' of flak ever-present over Germany, perhaps ours was more personal, just a few batteries carefully aiming at one or two Wimpies.
It was all go, and on the 23rd. we did an easy 3 1/2 hour trip. 2 hours of which was over Africa. We crossed the Tunisian coast and reached Pantelleria 20 minutes later, an island only 7 miles in length with an aerodrome on the western side. Visibility was poor, but we went straight in and dropped 4,500 lbs. in one stick. These were plotted later as just to the south of the aerodrome. We cruised around out at sea for 20 minutes at 7,000 feet, studying four barrage balloons clearly visible at 5000 feet. On our return however there was no support for this theory from anyone else and we were told it was only heavy flak. This was of course quite possible, in poor conditions and with tired eyes imagination can take over. Within a week however, it was generally accepted that the enemy were deploying barrage ballons [sic] although not in great numbers. Most of our aircraft were not fitted with cable cutters on the leading edge of the wings. Pantelleria was an easy trip and we were advised that it would count only as half a trip towards our 35. We had generally assumed the first tour was 30 trips but it did not seem to worry anyone. The day. after the Pantelleria trip, the Squadron mascot, Wompo, or Wimpy. a pedigree Heinz 69 was killed in action. Whilst he was
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merrily chasing some small creature he was accidentally hit by a jeep driven by F/O Langlois, a pilot of 150. He was so badly damaged that one of the lads put him down with his Smith & Wesson .38.
On the 24th. we staggered off the desert in "F" for Freddie heading for Sardinia carrying eight 500 pound bombs and some incendiaries and it seemed ages before we reached even 100 feet. I was not aware of the drama in the front office, both the Skipper and Bomb Air were struggling even to keep us airborne. At about 500 feet it was not possible to maintain height and the Skipper had no option but to lighten the load quickly. Two 500 pounders were released and seconds later there was a tremendous bang from down below, but the aircraft began to maintain height. We were just within sight of the Sardinian coast with the engines overheating when the Skipper jettisoned the remaining bombs and nursed the aircraft back to Fontain Chaude. That was our second boomerang. Had we been carrying a 4000 lb. cookie the episode would have had a very different ending. By the 2nd. of June we had completed 6 more trips and moved camp further east, to Kairouan. Our patch of desert was about 6 miles west of the walled City, said to be the fifth most holy in the Moslem world. The place was very dry, and the well 100 yards from our tent was out of bounds. The R.A.M.C. and the Afrika Korps had both marked it as poisoned by their repective [sic] enemies. It was said to contain human remains, but tests carried out just before we moved on showed the water had not been polluted and was 100% fit for drinking. Meanwhile our water was delivered by two water bowsers each of which travelled 30 miles east to Sousse several times each day. Many years later the record shows that neither the Germans nor the Allies polluted any water supplies. After all, both hoped to recapture them and put them back to their own use. On the first night from Kairouan we were credited with one more trip, having completed two halves! That is, two trips to PANTELLARIA.
We took off in waves of 3 or 4 throughout the night, arriving over the target 45 minutes later. Our aircraft was "C" Charlie which carried one 4000 pounder. On the first run in we overshot, but came round again and in a typical OTU practice run, Stan Chadderton placed the bomb neatly in the centre of the small town. A 45 minute flight back to base and an hour's respite whilst the aircraft was checked, refuelled and bombed up, then the mixture as before.
On the 27th. we were piling into a lorry to go out to the widely dispersed aircraft; the nightly German raid on Sousse was in full swing when a single Ju88 came over to look at our flare path. He was clearly visible and stooged around at will for about 10 minutes before making a run at about 1000 feet dropping 3 bombs in a salvo 300 yards from the Sgts. mess. Nothing was hurt except our feelings and there was no material damage. We had no A-A guns, so the Luftwaffe did not receive the same energetic welcome handed out to us. We relied on Beaufighter squadrons for defence. The R.A.F. policy was reasonable, as the aircraft were dispersed over a wide area and a single stick of bombs would be ineffective against a single aircraft as a target on the ground. We took-off half an hour later for a tour of Sardinia, again with a payload of eighteen 250 lb. bombs. Our only brief was to stooge around between aerodromes and generally make a nuisance of ourselves. There were no allied troops in Sardinia yet so no special care was called for. Our bombs were expected to be released on aerodromes, searchlights and guns. The
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main object was to keep the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica on the ground. These trips were not very popular and provided good practice for Ju88 night fighters. We were stood down on the 3rd. June after doing two ops the previous night. We slept all morning and in the afternoon crowded into a lorry and went to the seaside. Monastir, near Sousse and we had our first baths since leaving Blida. We were in good company and had Mare Nostrum to ourselves with tens of thousands of other Allied troops. I have been there several times since and always think of the mass of naked troops in the sea. A good target for the the [sic] German aircraft? Not really, the scores of light A-A guns made it a very dicey target. The Allies must have had well over a thousand aircraft of different types in the area. The Arab town of Monastir was out of bounds to the Army but not, for some probably invalid reason to the R.A.F. We had a 'shufti' and two of us invested in a sort of haircut. Most of the inhabitants seemed to be French, Monastir having been the fashionable part of the Sousse area,
The night of the 4th. June was an unlucky one for 150 Squadron. We lost three of our 16 aircraft on the ground without intervention from the enemy. The aircraft were bunched fairly close together, having been bombed-up and ready for take-off. During a final check, a Bombadier accidentally released a flare which lay on the ground. He dashed off to find an Armourer to make it safe but within minutes the flare ignited. Within 15 minutes the whole area was ablaze and three aircraft, M Mike, A Able and P Peter, each complete with over two tons of bombs and full petrol tanks blew up. Our aircraft which was to have taken us twice to Pantelleria that night 'N' Nuts, together with seven others, was severely damaged. About half the squadron went to Panteleria [sic] , 2 half-trips and in full moonlight reported a couple of Ju88's circling the island. One aircraft returned with about 40
square feet of fabric torn off.
The following night a new target was added to our growing list, SYRACUSE in eastern Sicily, only a little light flak was encountered, and it was just a matter of bombing the water front. Our main task was in fact to drop leaflets on several of the coastal towns, working our way anticlockwise round Sicily. We passed slightly to the west of Pantelleria on the return leg and saw the Wimpies from the Western Desert squadrons bombing the island.
The exact words written in my diary are "bashing hell out of the island".
Our own Group Captain - "Speedy" Powell also went to Pantelleria but complained that his bomb did not explode. We riled him that it went into the sea. We were now seeing a great deal more of the British army and the Americans and we were realising just what small cogs we were in all the activity. We had an American guest with us when he ran us over to the Ops. Room in his personal jeep to collect lastnight's aiming point photograph. He noticed in the caption at the bottom of the photograph "280 deg.T" and remarked "Geez, mighty hot up there aint [sic] it?". It refered [sic] to our course, not the temperature, but we did not add any further complication to trying to explain.
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in the next 12 days we carried out only two raids, the first an easy one to PANTALARIA [sic], which surrendered the following day, and the second to a new target, MESINA [sic], the straits between the toe of Italia and Sicile [sic] . on the way out we passed very close to our favourite island and across Sicily to the target. The target was already marked with 14 flares by the Western Desert squadrons, and for the first time in North Africa that part of the job was done for us. I noted at the time that "the A-A defences were baffled by the number of aircraft over the target at the same time. There were 34 aircraft and only F/Lt. Langlois ran into trouble. He was caught in the searchlights from both sides of the straits and dropped from 11,000 to 2,000 feet to escape them. In doing so he flew through the balloon barrage, but without further incident.
My diary has recently been opened for the first time in over 42 years, so I have not pondered over its accuracy. 34 aircraft simultaneously over the target probably did seem like a thousand bomber raid to us!. Our Bomb Aimer that night was Ft/Lt. Casky, our own being in jail in Tunis. After our last trip to 'the' island we went to Tunis on a 48 hr. verbal pass. The Skipper had the trots, which we all suffered from time to time, and he tried to rest in the tent nearest the toilet trench. Willoughby the Navigator, Stan Chadderton Bombadier [sic] , Harry Dyson the Wireless Op and myself, Rear Gunner. We were each issued with two boxes of American "K" rations, and hitch-hiked first to Sousse and then to Tunis. The first leg was in the back of an Army lorry and the main leg up the coast road by R.A.F. "Queen Mary" which carried about a hundred of us. The whole trip took only 6 hours. The town of Tunis had been in Allied hands for 4 days and there were still a few Germans in hiding. We had given no thought to accommodation which did not seem to be important. Leaving Stan and Di in a canteen abandoned by the Germans, Wally and I eventually found an hotel near the docks area where we were able to book two rooms. I cannot recall the name of the hotel, but the address was 49 Rue de Serbie. The hotel was in very poor condition, no water, all the windows had been blown out, doors smashed, walls cracked and so on. No catering but we had our 'K' rations. Opposite the hotel was a bombed church and all around the buildings were either destroyed or severely damaged. The docks had been our main target in Tunis, and they were destroyed, with all the warehouses practically levelled out. One cargo vessel was beached and two others rested on the bottom. The Arabs were mostly friendly and told us the bomb damage in town was done mainly by 4 engined bombers is daylight, which let us off the hook. The European French were not so friendly, possibly many of them having lost comfortable homes. Some were quite abusive verbally but to others we managed to explain that we flew Chasseurs, pas des bombardiers. In our minds we had liberated the people of Tunis - and the rest of North Africa - from the Germans. We did not fully appreciate that the Arabs saw it differently. The Inglisi and Americans were no different to the Germans and Italians, and they in turn did no less for them than the French. They lived for the day when they would be left to manage their own affairs. In our wanderings around town we met a Tommy who was a Prisoner of War on a ship which had. been bombed at night a few miles out of Tunis. The ship was Italian, homeward bound and had been straffed [sic] by Spitfires during the day. The ship was spotted by two Wellington crews during a night raid on the docks, and the ship was
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bombed, then straffed [sic] from a few hundred feet. The vessel came to a halt and the 20 or so Germans and Italians abandoned ship. Three of the several hundred British prisoners had been regrettably killed in the action and all the others managed to get ashore in lifeboats and floats in the final days of the Axis evacuation of North Africa. The ship was without lights which should have been carried. Another 8th. Army private told us he was a P.O.W. being transferred from a lorry onto a boat about a week ago when about 30 Spitfires and Kittyhawks arrived and caused chaos with their 20 and 40 mm. cannon. The guards were overpowered and most of the 500 or so P.O.W.’s managed to get away. He spoke highly of the fighter pilots, convinced the attack was a very well-planned sortie to release the P.O.W.'s., not just to blaze away at anything German that dared to move. He could very well have been correct,
On our last evening in Tunis the four of us shared a battle of wine with a meal at a roadside cafe. When we were paying the bill we found there was money left over and asked for another bottle of their excellent wine. As the wine was brought over, a Sgt. M.P. standing behind us shouted "no more wine for them", after which Stan told him to mind his own business. The M.P. then grabbed Stan's arm and held it to his back, but seeing threatening movements from the rest of us, released it. Stan then turned quickly and thumped the M.P. who promptly disappeared. Shortly afterwards two R.A.F. Sgt. S.P.'s came is and asked if we had had some trouble and if so would Stan like to put in a complaint to the Provost Marshal? This seemed like a good countermeasure to a possible charge made by the Sgt. M.P. and Stan accompanied the two R.A.F. S.P.’s to the Provost Marshal's office. In reality this was the jail and as they entered the door the Sgt. M.P. set about Stan who gave as good as he got. But this was inside the jail, Stan was at a big disadvantage and about to spend the first of three nights in it. The jail was is fact next door to our hotel is Rue de Serbie. Willy and I did not suspect that Stan was in trouble, we assumed our S.P.’s were just being helpful, so we sat down again with the bottle. Perhaps Di's conscience was not quite so clear, and when he saw the S.P.'s coming he made himself scarce. We caught up with him later asking an M.P. where he could pinch a Jeep. The M.P. humoured him and directed him to an American car park with lots of Jeeps, but Di had seen a tramcar and decided to pinch that instead. Fortunately the tramcar was off the rails, and he changed his attention to the French tricolour on top of a derelict building. He climbed the building and removed the flag, then Willy and I managed to get him back to the hotel. Di's condition was not due to a session of heavy drinking, we had seen very little of anything alcoholic for a long time and two glasses of local wine would have been more than enough to really get him going.
The three of us hitch-hiked back to Kairoaun and reported the loss of one Bomb Aimer to the Skipper. The following day Squadron Leader Miller D.F.C. flew to Tunis and demanded Stan's release from jail. He had a major row with the same Sgt. M.P. who started it all and who was asking what authority the Squadron Leader had. The Squadron Leader pointed to his 2 1/2 rings of rank and the D.F.C. and asked the M.P. whether he thought they were scotch mist. Stan was released and back at Kairoaun was charged with causing an affray, resulting in a Reprimand. The Sgt. M.P. was charged and given a Severe Reprimand and reduced to Corporal.
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By the 16th. of June we were operational again as a crew. the target was again NAPLES, a 6 hour 15 min. stooge and rather tiring. There was a full moon and visibility was 25 miles. We could clearly see Pantelaria [sic] to port, and later, north of Sicily, the small island of Maritimo, just the tip of a mountain sticking out of the sea. The Isle of Capri provided a good pin-point. Over the target area there was 9/10ths. cloud so we bombed from above the flares. Flak was moderate and widely spread. There was slight consternation when one of my turret doors fell off for no apparent reason. I wondered what else would fall off but everything else seemed to be intact so it was just a matter of strapping myself in - which according to the book should be so in any case. Just after "bombs gone" I reported a twin-engined aircraft starboard quarter up at 1000 yards. The Skipper started to weave gently. and Di went to the astrodome position to search above the horizontal whilst I -theoritically [sic] at least-- concentrated on below the horizontal. This is not an easy task when the rear gunner is expected to ignore one fighter leaving it to his colleague whilst searching for others. Di became somewhat emotional to say the least, said it was not a fighter but merely flak, and then went on to give a commentry [sic] on searchlight activity and flak at least - by then- five miles away, and of only historical interest. Whilst in a turn to port the other aircraft was directly astern and I identified it as twin engined and without the high tail fin of the Wellington. The Skipper did a diving turn to starboard and we lost the other aircraft. Di claimed it was another aircraft not to be confused with the one he identified as flak! Normally Di stayed at his radio position, it was better that way. On the return journey, either there was a raid on Trapani or someone had strayed off-course. On the 18th. it was again to SYRACUSE, an exceptionally clear night, almost no cloud and a full moon. We could have dispensed with the flarepath on take-off and we felt as if we were doing a day trip. Over the target there was tracered flak up to 7,000 feet and we were geared up to bomb from 5,000 feet. We expected night fighters, and even day fighters, so went straight in at 5000 feet, bombed and straight out again, down to 3,000 feet for a quick tour of several nearby small towns and villages where we dropped leaflets. We were glad to get home that night, such met. and lunar conditions were hazardous. SALERNO again on the 21st, a routine trip, but on the 24th. of June I got a message to call at the 'Orderly Room', which in reality was the bell tent next to the C.O.'s tent. There was great discussion on which particular crime had caught up with me, but it was all very innocent. I came out of the bell tent as a Flight Sargeant [sic] much to the annoyance of the Sgt. Skipper and the three other Sgts. in the crew. It didn't help very much when I told them they need not call me Flight Sgt. ALL the time, just once in the morning and again in the evening.
In the early hours of the 26th. June we bombed the naval base of BARI in S. E. Italy, and it was an almost complete fiasco. It was not possible to see the ground due to haze, and the Western Desert aircraft had dropped the marker flares in the wrong place. Fires were started over an area of about 60 square miles, maybe one or two on the target by sheer chance. The target was a small oil refinery built especially to deal with the crude oil from Albania. Important to the Axis because that particular oil needed special treatment which, we were advised, only Bari could provide. We were now spending more and more time over the Italian mainland, for the first time we were seeing concentrations of
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lights in the form of a triangle which were assumed to be Prison and Internment Camps. On the way out we saw Trapani being bombed by our colleagues from the Western desert. The following afternoon it was too hot to sleep and I flew with Sgt. Whitehouse, a new pilot from Britain, in a brand new aircraft, 'D' Donald. We traced the path of the 8th. Army to beyond the Mareth line, at about 2500 feet. There were few battle scars; It was hard to appreciate that this was a place of such dreadful carnage so recently.
Kairouan was placed out of bounds due to Typhus, and there was nothing in the walled city to tempt us to ignore the order. The Arabs were less friendly and our revolvers were not looked upon merely as a taken of authoriity [sic] . According to a report in a Daily Mirror which took a few weeks to arrive, the lads were reported to have been given a hearty welcome by the French people in the Holy City of Kairouan. Actually there were only a handful of French remaining. Another Daily Mirror headline we found amusing was "BLOCKBUSTERS ON BIZERTA". It went an to say that "Lastnight our Bombers based in North Africa again pounded Bizerta; During the entire raid, blockbusters were dropped at the rate of one every two minutes. Absolutely correct, it was a raid from Blida, but it did not say that the raid was of 2 minutes duration and that we had only two aircraft able to carry the blockbusters. However, we looked forward to reading even an old Daily Mirror and to listen to the B.B.C. when airborne. Some of the stock phrases brought a chuckle at times 'Fires were left burning..', "Rear Gunners straffed [sic] the target..." "All opposition was overcome.." "Many two ton blockbusters ...." etc. etc, It appeared far more impressive in print than in reality doing it. Generally all we saw were explosions and dull red glows, tracer coming up and curving away passed us, and being blinded sometimes by searchlights. We did not picture at the time the loss of life down below and the damage caused to factories and buildings of all descriptions, in any cases, mostly houses. Straffing [sic] was invigorating and served to let off steam, but the supporting arithmetic was disappointing. An aircraft travelling at 180 m.p.h. (264 feet per second) over a target 360 yards in length would take 4 seconds to traverse the target. A .303 Browning has a rate of fire of 1200 rounds per min., the four in the rear turret having a combined rate of 4800 per min., or 80 rounds per second. There is time only for a 4 second burst of 320 rounds - not a lot - The Reargunner sees nothing of the target until it is passed and needs to be told when to open fire by someone in the front office. On straffing [sic] details it is likely the front turret with two guns, and one beam gun would be in use, increasing fire power by 75%, Possibly even a four-second burst once experienced at the receiving end might cause the enemy to duck next time we come by. This was an acceptable technique along a straight road. The aircraft was often fitted with two beam guns, one on each side, but only one was manned. Vision was poor from the beam positions and normally we would pass to one side of the target with one wing low. The gun on the other beam would have been aiming upwards. On the 28th 150 Sqdn. was stood down for 24 hours, but the previous night we paid a visit to SANGIOVANI on the southern toe of the Italian mainland: This was a daylight trip with four squadrons of Wellingtons to the train ferry terminal, a dock or lock which the ferry would enter and the water level be adjusted such that the level of the rails on land and ferry coincided. The train would then be shunted an or off the ferry as required. Flack was intense for
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Italian targets and there were trains both on-the ferry in dock and onshore. The whole lot was successfully reduced to a shambles but 6 of our aircraft failed to return. Our heaviest loss yet in a single night.
The 30th. of June was Willie's birthday and we celebrated it over MESINA. According to the B.B.C. we are blitzing both sides of the straits, Mesina to the west in Sicily and Sangiovani on the Italian mainland. The straits are only 3 1/2 miles wide, and carry the greater part of all enemy traffic to Sicily, entirely in German control with concentrated light flack [sic] from both sides and from ships in the middle. A trip lasting 5 1/2 hours.
The whole crew is beginning to feel the strain of long periods of intense activity. Although most of the memories are of the actual bombing ops., that was only a part of it. Aircraft had to be inspected daily on the ground and also air tested ready for the next trip, before bombing up. The Navigator had to prepare his flight plan prior to take off and this was done also on the many occasions when trips were later cancelled. All of us spent at least some time in the Intellegence [sic] Section to keep up-to-date with the position of the front line and the general trend. It was perhaps in some ways easier for us than for our counterparts in Europe. We had fewer distractions. There was no looking forward to a pint in the local pub. nor getting home to the family for a day or two. Not even the local cinema. There was very little booze to be had, I seem to remember a ration of one bottle of beer per fortnight which I used to take up on an air test to cool it down, and then give to the Armourers after landing. The batman was not going to ask "which suit and shoes are you wearing tonight Sir? " as he did later at Spitalgate. Evening wear was the same as for the rest of the day, shorts, perhaps a shirt, certainly no socks, and sandals on the feet. On the few occasions when we went out of camp we generally wore khaki battledress which we wore also of course on ops. I was finding it increasingly difficult to keep my eyes open at night for long periods, and finding it very tempting to rest my head on the guns and have a doze, but to do so would be absolutely unforgiveable. The Skipper was under an even greater strain and a six hour trip was 6 hours of concentrated effort. On one or two occasions he dozed off for maybe just a few seconds, but fortunately by his side most of the time was Stan Chadderton the Bombardier who very quickly realised the position and watched points up front. The amount of nattering in the air was on the increase, also. It was standard procedure to use oxygen at night regardless of altitude, and the microphones with their electrical heaters were built-in to the mask. Everyone was connected to the intercom system all the time except for the Wireless op. who was able to switch out his own connection when using his radio. Microphones were switched as required by individual wearers. The Skipper's microphone was switched on all the time and so too was the Rear Gunner's in danger areas. Procedures were relaxed somewhat in our particular theatre of war; we could get along quite nicely without oxygen below 10,000 feet and I don't recollect flying much above that height. Whenever I reported anything Di dashed to the astradome [sic] and objected. If the rotation of my rear turret was not rythmical [sic] both the Skipper and Navigator objected. The turret and guns presented an assymetrical [sic] shape to the slipstream with a consequent rudder effect. If I kept the turret facing starboard for too long the aircraft would do a gentle flat turn to starboard. Meanwhile the Skipper was trying to maintain a course determined by the
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Navigator who was keeping a watchful eye on his compass, perhaps not appreciating that it was the rear gunner making things difficult. Although the sides of the turret were clad with perspex, it was difficult to see through it with the degree of clarity required. In fact the perspex in front of the turret had been removed to provide a clear vision panel. Even on the ground the whole crew was getting very irritable with each other. For almost a year we had lived worked, ate and near enough slept together almost without a break, the same endless routine, and anything to which we could look forward seemed an awful long way off. Whose turn to carry the water, became a very important issue at times and would lead to an argument [sic] . After some very harsh wards we would agree that it was stupid to argue about such a trivial issue, which in turn led to a bigger argument on who started the argument in the first place. I remember Chad the Bombardier putting paid to the row one day by getting off his bed - known as a pit - and announcing "Well, I've get to go for a **, anyone care to join me'? The loo comprised a trench, 20 feet long, several feet deep and about one foot wide over which one crouched. There was a choice of direction in which to face, and one or two of the bigger chaps preferred to straddle the trench. There was no need to interrupt a conversation in going to the toilet.
By the end of June the length of tour was clarified. First it was to have been 30 trips as in Britain, then it had been increased to 40 as some trips were not very hazardous, then some of the trips counted only as halves, and the tour was again changed to be 250 hours of operational flying. The Western Desert tour was said to be 40 trips or 250 hours, whichever was the less. However, there were other things to think about. Sgt. Lee and two other pilots were paraded before the whole squadron Air Crews and called "Saboteurs" by the Group Captain, having between them written off five aircraft in taxiing accidents. Group Captain 'Speedy' Powell was a very keen type and conducted all the briefings himself, was generally the first one off the ground and first back in time for debriefing. Whilst we were resting he would sometimes return to the target in an American twin boomed lightning to try and assess the damage - or find what we had actually bombed!
On the night of the 30th. June we were stood dawn and watched 142 Sqdn. take off for southern Italy. The starboard engine of one aircraft cut a few seconds before the aircraft should have get airborne. The aircraft swung and crashed into a jeep which was waiting to cross the 'runway', killing both American occupants and breaking it's back, a complete write-off. My diary makes no mention of the fate of the crew. We had just been issued with a new aircraft, 'B Beer' and I spent most of the day cleaning the guns and turret which were still all greased up as when they left England. Normally this work was carried out by the Armourers, but I was expected to take an active interest in the guns and turrets. The guns were removed, stripped, soaked in petrol, thoroughly cleaned and reassembled, replaced in the newly-cleaned turret and then harmonised. In Britain the harmonising of guns was carried out by placing a board at a predetermined distance in front of the turret and adjusting the ring-sight and guns to line up with specific paints or circles on the board. In North Africa we placed a can or any handy object on the ground 300 yards away and pointed the guns and ring-sight at it.
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Another day-off on the 2nd. July and Jumbo Cox, a Navigator on 150 Sqdn. and I hitch-hiked into Sousse and spent a few hours in the sea. After our dip we queued for 20 minutes at a huge marquee and enjoyed the most wonderful mug of tea of all time. I have thought many times in the last 40 years of that mug of tea.
The 4th. of July turned out to be the-hottest in temperature we had experienced for a long time. We had bombed TRAPANI in the very early morning. Intensive flack and searchlights with tracer up to 5000 feet. At 2000 feet the temperature was 95 Farenheit [sic] and not much lower at 9,000 feet, our bombing height. I was wearing only trousers and a shirt and was soaked in perspiration. Even the slipstream felt hot when I put one hand outside. Apart from the oppressive heat, it was a routine trip, and we managed to sleep most of the following afternoon, in 130 deg. in the shade. The wind was from the south-west, straight off the Sahara, and several airmen passed out with heatstroke. Metal parts of the aircraft were too hot to touch and a Wellington on the ground of 37 Squadron went up in flames. On the night of the 6th, we were briefed to attack aerodromes in Sardinia, and Sgt. Chandler piloted the first aircraft off. Both engines cut immediately after take-off whilst his undercarriage was still lowered. With full fuel and bomb load he somehow managed to avoid the inevitable and landed in a cultivated area at the end of the runway. Some of the crew suffered minor injuries, but it was 40 minutes before the rest of us were given a green to take-off. The wrecked aircraft was directly under the take-off path. Seven aircraft failed to get off the ground, including ours, all due to engines overheating after running for over 40 minutes on the ground. We had also lost air pressure for the brakes. Of the aircraft which did take off none was successful in finding the target, flouted by bad weather over Sardinia. Sgt. Valentine was above 10/10ths cloud with engines overheating and deemed it necessary to jettison his bombs "over the sea". We were not generally briefed with the positions of Allied shipping convoys, but were routed away from them without being given the reason. Sgt. Valentine decided to return by the shortest route and when has bombs whistled down on the convoy the Navies took a very poor view and let fly with everything they had. This was a well-established practice on the Navy's part, so there was no cause for complaint. In all, that night was a waste of 30 tons of bombs, 4000 gallons of petrol and over 150 flying hours.
On the 7th. we visited an aerodrome at COMISO in Southern Italy, delivering 4500 lbs, of bombs. It was a new target to the R.A.F., and apparently undefended, Only three of us managed to locate it and we were lucky in the timing of our 3 flares in obtaining a pinpoint. We obtained good aiming point photograph which showed our stick of bombs had straddled the dispersal area, with the last two landing in the olive groves.
Nearly half a century later I wonder why we did not use the radio for communicating with other aircraft in providing mutual assistance. We had no V.H.F. but the TR9 H.F. R/T would have been adequate. Observing Radio silence I feel was taken to extremes, our signals might indicate our presence to the enemy, but they were aware of that in any case. They might home onto us, but our transmissions would have been brief and on a frequency initially unknown to the enemy. They were not equipped to respond fast enough to information gleaned by monitoring, neither was the area covered with direction-finding
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stations. I feel this was one of the matters where a principle had been established and which was not reviewed often enough under changing circumstances.
On the evening of the tenth of July, just before briefing we heard aircraft engines and it was like being at a cinema show. Wave after wave of Dakota transports thundered overhead on their way to Sicily. It reminded me of the film "An Engishman`s Home" and the massive formations of German bombers, but these aircraft were American and British and were definitely not making a film. At briefing Groupie put us in the picture. "Accurate timing and accurate bombing, more so than ever before" was his opening phrase. We were briefed to bomb a specific part of SYRACUSE whilst paratroops were being dropped close by and other paras were already in position ready to capture our target immediately after the bombing. Flares were dropped accurately and the target successfully bombed, although some bombs went in the sea because of its close proximity. We noted a very large fire at Catania and "a number of queer lights which suggested fifth column activity" according to my diary. 45 years later I wonder how I reached that conclusion. Looking down from about 9,000 feet on the southern coast of Sicily on the return journey, we saw the Navy shelling the coast and several searchlights on shore began to sweep out to sea. One of the searchlights located a ship and held on to it, whilst the others went on sweeping. From another ship there were just three flashes of light, and seconds afterwards, three flashes on shore, one in front of the offending searchlight, one slap on it, and the third behind it. That was one searchlight out of action, and the others switched off in sympathy. The Navy carried on firing without further interruption. My panoramic view of the action from nearly two miles above gave no indication of the destruction and agony caused by those three shots.
The following, night it was the turn of MONTECORVlNO in western Italy, a new German aerodrome. Over the target we narrowly missed colliding with Jack Alazrachi in `Q' Queenie. His starboard wingtip scored our port wing and my diary records "a very shaky do". Our stick straddled the aircraft parking area and we took an excellent aiming point photograph of 15 aircraft an the ground. It was later confirmed officially that our two squadrons destroyed 40 aircraft and damaged many more.
On the 13th. at briefing, Group Captain Powell grinned and glanced down at his flying boots and said "Yes chaps, we are in for an interesting trip, Jerry is landing a massive convoy at MESINA and we are instructed to smash it." We went out at 6000 ft. above sea level which, over Sicily averaged about 2000 feet above ground. I found it difficult to concentrate on a formal rear-gunner type search, there was so much activity. Ground detail could be seen very easily and the Tactical Air Force was observed bombing all over the island. There were flares everywhere, bombs creating havoc, flak barrages and intensive shelling by the Navies. Over our target, the flak was intense but scattered. Sgt. "Pax" Smith's aircraft was holed, something went through his bombing panel and made two big holes in the front turret. This crew, like most did not include a full-time front gunner, the Bombardier occupied the turret as and when expedient and on this occasion had just returned to the second dickie seat when the aircraft was holed. One aircraft was seen to crash and another, in flames, exploded on hitting the ground. At debriefing we learned that one Wellington of 142 Squadron was missing,
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and this was manned by six officers, five of whom had completed one tour over Germany. The sixth, flying as 'second dickie' was on his very first trip.
Another new target to us, on the 15th, CROTONIA, an aerodrome on the east coast of the toe of Italy. A routine trip out, good visibility and straight in to the taget [sic] . There were four flak batteries, but Sgt, Mickie Mortimer was just ahead of us and his first stick silenced all four. Our single stick straddled the aerodrome and enlarged the existing fires among aircraft on the ground. We stooged around for a little while watching aircraft blowing up and more bombs adding to the havoc on the ground. When all was quiet we dropped to 250 feet and went in with guns blazing and between us fired about 4000 rounds into the fires, We must have hit something. There were dummy fires to the north and south-east of the aerodrome, very unreal and no-one was fooled by them. On the way out of the target area we were followed. by an aircraft sporting an orange light, and at one stage took light evasive action, but he did not attack. Several other rear gunners reported the same experience, non [sic] was actually engaged. We were routed back round northern Sicily, as usual Trapani was being attacked and other targets nearby were being bombed. We were hoping to see the 142 Sqdn. aircraft with the blue light which we nearly shot down returning from Salerno. The Bombardier in the second pilot's seat reported two aircraft ahead, one with a white light which we assumed to be a decoy. We expected the aircraft to allow us to overtake, and whilst the one with the light drew our attention his chum would sneak is from another dirction [sic] . We lost both the other aircraft for a minute or two, then the aircraft with the light - this time a blue one - reappeared on the starboard bow at about 500 yards. Meanwhile Chad had taken over the front turret, but held his fire. He identified it as a Wimpey. The Skipper altered course and we passed about 100 feet below the Wimpy. I got a plan view of him and confirmed the identification. As he fell behind I flashed dah dah dit, dit dit dit on my inspection lamp. There was no reply from the other aircraft but it landed 15 minutes after us and taxied towards 142 dispersal, On that same trip two of us saw an aircraft at 800 yards on our port quarter up which closed in to 500 yards. He was at too great a range for our .303s, but we were ready for an instant dive to port. He surprised us by turning away to port at about 400 yards, and again two of us identified it as a Wimpey.
Enemy aerodromes continued to take up most of our effort, and on the night of the 17th. it was three hours each way to POMIGLIANO near Naples, passing round Vesuvius with it's dull red glow. The target was initially very quiet and consequently not easy to locate. On our first run in at 6000 feet, we were a few minutes early, but dead on time at 4000 feet on our second run. We were caught and held in searchlights, and the light flak was point-blank. Allan Willoughby claimed he could smell it when the Skipper asked him for a course for home after the second run-in. When Stan the Bombardier announced that we still had nine 250 pound bombs aboard, someone suggested we should jettisson [sic] them on the town. Allan suggested we strike at a village a few miles ahead but Stan refused to drop them anywhere except the aerodrome at Pomigliano. The third run-in was at 5000 feet and the searchlights got us again as soon as the bomb doors were open. We were in a cone of eight and it seemed we had the aerodrome to ourselves. The bombing was accurate and we lost height to 2000 feet, all quiet again. My part in all this had
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really been that of a passenger listening to and witnessing the drama, and I was not popular when I suggested to the Skipper that we go back at low level and put a few lights out. Chad was in favour and had the front turret in mind, Allan was not keen and didn't like the smell of flak, and Dyson thought the idea was 'plain stupid'. Dyson was probably right for the wrong reason, but the Skipper was thinking we had got away with it for well over 30 trips so far, and there was no point in tempting providence. A three hour stooge back to Blida with nothing but silence on the intercom. Other aircraft were seen in the circuit and our TR9 radio was out of order. This was a very low power transmitter/receiver operating between 4 and 8 MHz. and used by the Skipper to contact Air Traffic Control at Base. If we still had an acceptable reserve of fuel we would have gone away and returned in 30 miniutes [sic] , but fuel was low and the Skipper decided to land without any formalities or delay. This aroused the wrath of the Flight Commander who tore a terrific strip off him next day. Our report at debriefing was very different to that of Sgt. Whitehouse and crew, who said it was a wizard O.T.U. run, bombs slap on the runway, no flak, no searchlights and the whole thing was 'a piece of cake'. He had in fact been to the wrong aerodrome, Crotone, which we had pranged on the 15th. where the defences stayed silent in order not to attract attention. - an old Italian custom -. The reason for the accuracy of the searchlights was a layer of cloud at 10,000 feet, a full moon and clear visibility. We were silhouetted against the cloud even without the searchlights.
Two nights later Sgt. Whitehouse, this time officially and with the rest of us, went again to CROTONE. We were all very tired and I found it difficult to keep awake. Visibility was 15 miles with a nearly full moon and on the way out for long periods we actually enjoyed the visible company of other Wimpies. On arrival at CROTONE we were surprised to see fires already started and spent a good five minutes in ensuring that it was indeed the target, Two bombing runs were made, at 3000 feet and 1500 feet, dropping nine 250 pounders each time. The bombs were seen bursting among aircraft on the ground, some of which were already ablaze. 400 yards from the burning aircraft was a small wood which had obviously been hit and was burning merrily. My diary records "from the ground it would have seemed like Nov. 5th.
Rockets were going up and verries by the score.
Someone had pranged a pyrotechnic store."
We made a third run at 200 feet and spent some 1500 rounds at the aircraft on the ground. Other gunners did the same. We were amazed to find everything so easy, and no opposition as far as we know, our raid on the 15th. should have given them a good idea of what to expect. There were no dummy fires and still they make no effort to disperse aircraft. The absence of fighters was strange; even day-fighters would have been very effective under those conditions. One crew reserved an odd bomb for the village south of the arodrome [sic] . It had a 36 hour delay and landed in the centre of the village. Not a very nice thing to do, and an act certainly not in accordance with our leaflets. Sgt. Pax Smith the intrepid Kiwi was on the last trip of his tour and elected to hit a railway bridge near the coast. It also had a' 36 hour delay fuse and missed the bridge by 50 yards. The British army was not at all happy with Smithy's effort, they planned to use the bridge within a week or two and were going to some considerable trouble to make sure the enemy
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didn't blow it up. They hadn’t counted on Smithy, but fortunately he wasn't quite up to scratch an that last trip.
One night off and then back try the 'Big City" , the capital of Italia, not to be confused with the really big one, the Capital city of Deutchland, with which there was absolutely no comparison. It was over two months since we had been to Rome, and it was still supposed to be an 'Open, undefended City'. Our specific target was PRACTICA DI MERE, an aerodrome just to the southwest of Rome. The Groupy had made it very clear at briefing, that nothing must be dropped on Rome itself. The target would be marked by flares positioned by W/O Coulson of 142 Squadron. We had no target map but the the [sic] aerodrome was plotted on the map of Central Italy - probably half million scale -. As we were passing the island of Maratimo, Chad was in the second dickie seat, map in hand and decided to get a clearer view of Maratimo by opening the sliding window at his side. The map disappeared out of the window, but with Allan's D. R. navigation we reached the target as Coulson's flares went down. Target marking at that stage of the war in Italy was in its infancy and was carried out with flares designed for lighting up the ground. These were very different from the coloured Target Indicators used to such great effect over Germany. Bombing was not particularly accurate, but well clear of Rome itself, where there was plenty of light flak and searchlight activity which exploded the myth about an undefended city. This activity extended down the Tiber to the Lido di Roma, where the Radio Station was still operating. The Vatican was blacked out very effectively
On the 25th. we started 8 days leave, taking an aircraft back to Blida for an engine change and major inspection. We took advantage of the stores at Blida and were issued with new uniforms, shoes and anything we wanted, just a matter of signing for it, it was two years before the system caught up with me and I was debited with the cost.
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[bearer document in English and arabic]
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[photograph]
[photograph]
TWO OF OUR AIMING POINT PHOTOS
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The first three days were spent in Algiers with Harry Dyson at the Hotel Radio Grand but the inactivity - or something - was too much for Harry so we returned to Blida, only to find the rest of our party had adjourned to the rest camp at Surcouf. I spent most of my time in the next few days in Blida, partly with a French-Arab family Iloupcuse Moka Mourice Bijoutier, at 11 Rue Goly, Blida. 30 years later I was able to find the area but no-one recognised either the name or the address. Like most places, Blida had changed a lot in the intervening years. I remembered it as an almost typical French village, beautifully clean, tables and chairs outside the cafes, and a very pleasant atmosphere. After 20 years or so of independence it was a very different story, and I thought a rather sad one. I made several excursions into Algiers where the Yanks had become very well organised. They had-taken over and re-organised six cinemas, all with continuous shows for about 12 hours per day, and open house to Service personnel. I visited all six. The N.C.O.'s Club in Rue d'Isley was our base camp in Algiers, where we enjoyed endless cups of tea and cakes. The Malcolm Club, exclusive to R.A.F. personnel provided a good hot meat each evening. It was on this leave that I visited the local Match Factory at Caussemille, being an ardent Philumenist - collector of matchbox labels-. The factory was at that time owned and operated by the French and I was given a conducted tour of the factory. Most of the labels presented to me at the factory are in my collection to this day. My next visit to the factory was 37 years later, when I met with a very cool reception. The French had gone long ago, only their name remained. In that area of Algiers, all the street names were written on the street signs in Arabic except one, Caussemille. This was the name of an old French or Belgian family of match manufacturers possibly difficult to translate into Arabic. I met several of the chaps from the Rhodesia training days, one had joined Coastal Command and was detached from 'U.K. to Maison Blanche on White Wimpies. It had taken him six months to complete 100 hours and he was rather gloomy about the next four hundred to complete his tour. He was in fact rather nervous, his job being mine-sweeping; I asked him "what height do you fly at?" He replied that `it was a two-dimensional job, no such thing as height'. Causing magnetic mines to blow up by flying over them at very low level could not have been very pleasant. Maison Blanche is now known as El Beda, the International airport of Algeria, not so well organised as it was in 1943, and not half so busy! Blida aerodrome is the Headquarters of the Algerian Air Force and is a prohibited area to foreigners.
At the end of our 8 days in comparitive [sic] civilisation, we were glad to collect our newly serviced Wimpey and return to Kairouan. I was immediately recruited to fly with Sgt. Stone to MARINA DI PAOLA. We stooged over northern Sicily is daylight and very close to Trapani our old favourite which had been severely bashed about. During the invasion it was subjected also to heavy Naval shelling. Being with a different crew perhaps made things more interesting, seeing how they reacted to various aspects, and I thought they had a rather strange and formal appoach [sic] . We did not see our bombs burst and our photoflash failed to go off. There was none of the usual binding we experienced with our own crew, everyone was pleasant, courteous and cheerful. At debriefing Group Captain Powell said "Good Show chaps, I expect you are glad to get onto ops at last, and that's the first one done". I was speechless but thinking about their next 44, maybe they were also. I can see "Speedy Powell" very clearly making
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that statement, a memory revived recently in the film "Target for Tonight" in which he was the Flight Lieutenant taking the briefing; the same very distinctive and distinguished voice.
On the night of the 4th., the crew not feeling particularly refreshed after its leave, our target was BATTAPAGLIA. It was daylight almost to the Italian Coast and we arrived with 20 minutes to spare, circling the target area. 'Bang on time we dropped the flares, but there were no bright lights'. The twenty minutes of sight-seeing had upset the routine and the flares were dropped on 'safe', and therefore failed to go off. We still had two flares so went down to 3000 feet and dropped the bombs through 9/10ths cloud using individual flares. 90 seconds after bombing, Stan identified the target 4 miles ahead. We had neither bombs nor flares left, and were depressed at putting up such a rotten show on what turned out to be the last trip of our tour. We could have done a spot of straffing below cloud, but instead called it a day.
The following night we waved the boys off to MASINA, and we felt rather sad that we were no longer operational. Sqdn. Ldr Garrad and crew were also no longer operational, having failed to return from MASINA. Someone suggested staying and doing another tour, but Dyson thought the idea was "stupid" - like most other ideas - and with deep regrets we said cheerio to our friends on 150 and 142 Squadrons, and climbed in the back of a lorry bound for Tunis. Pax Smith and Mickey Mortimer and crews were with us and we sat back and enjoyed the scenery, some taking pot-shots at nothing in particular with their revolvers. We had in fact lots of unofficial ammunition of 9mm. calibre, captured from the enemy. This fitted nicely into our .38 Smith & Wessons and differed from the .38 ammo. only in that it had no ejection flange at the end of the cartridge. This had the effect that we could use captured enemy ammo. but they could not use ours because of the flange.
We arrived at no. 2BPD in Tunis just in time for dinner and a cold shower, the first shower for about nine months. During our week or so in the Transit Camp, we had a sort of parade each morning and then were free for the day. It was on one of these parades that our Skipper's name was called to approach the C.O. "Sir, 416170". With no prior warning, the citation was read out and he was presented with the D.F.M. Next it was the turn of Mickey Mortimer to march up and also receive a D.F.M. I seem to recall that he did a somersault before saluting in front of the C.O., or was it a back somersault after receiving the award? either of which today seems quite incredible. Pax Smith had already received a D.F.M for his earlier exploits. My one other recollection of the Transit Camp was an old Italian Water Tanker which was used as a static water tank. It held 10,000 gallons of water and must have weighed over 53 tons when full. All 24 wheels were firmly embedded in the sand up to their axles. It was when we departed from Tunis by lorry for Algiers that one of the Canadian officers decided to hitch-hike back to U.K. and to rejoin the party at the Reception Centre. I learned later that he flew first to Algiers with the R.A.F. and then flew to U.K. with the Yanks. He was an old hand at that sort of thing, having hitch-hiked from Blida to New York and back with a colleague in less than a week.
Meanwhile the rest of us travelled the 500 miles to Algiers by lorry along the coast road, and after a few days in the transit camp boarded a troopship, the Capetown Castle, a passenger liner of the Castle line. We were accommodated in 4-berth cabins with full peace-time fascilities [sic] .
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each cabin was allocated one Italian P.O.W. who slept outside the door, and attended to the cleaning, dhobi etc. We were not impressed by the Italians as fighting men, but had no complaints of their ability and willingness in the job they were then doing. It was a very comfortable voyage and we lived it up in a manner to which we were certainly not accustomed.
After a very pleasant and restful 10 days or so we disembarked at Greenoch and I recollect forming up on the key [sic] prior to joining a train for Liverpool and West Kirby. A rather pompous redcapped Military Policeman called us to attention, right turn, at the double, march! It was more astonishment than lack of discipline which caused everyone to stay put. He was told to get his knees brown and get a few other things too, and we walked to the train, deliberately out of step. Our first steps back in England were certainly not going to be at the double ordered by Red Caps.
This was my fourth visit to West Kirby, where we were rekitted, saying cheerio to our Khaki battledress and tropical kit, documents checked, medical exam. and then disembarkation leave. It was at West Kirby that our Crew was really disbanded, very sad after working as a team for so long, but another phase of our careers was completed.
Of the Crew? Stan Chadderton was commissioned on his second tour and we have met several times in the past 40 years, but I have no news of the Skipper and the rest of the crew. Stan met the Skipper, then a Flight Lieutenant at Brise [sic] Norton at the end of the war on his return from a German P.O.W. camp. We can only hope he returned safely to New Zealand and was able to return in the farm. Allan Willoughby is thought to have ended the war as a Squadron Leader.
My association with the Wimpy was not yet over, however, it was still in use in large numbers in the U.K. for operational training, and was to remain so until the end of the war. More "Wimpys" were built than any other operational. bomber.
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[document from C-in-C]
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[photograph] C.W WITH MUM BARNOLDSWICK
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[photograph] HILDA WITH THE SKIPPER AND BOMB AIMER
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[photograph] [underlined] WITH THE SKIPPER & BOMB AIMER – SECOND HONEYMOON SEPT. 1943 [/underlined]
[photograph] [photograph]
[underlined] AT OUR CHALET AT BLIDA [/underlined]
WATSON – RUTHERFORD- DYSON – CHADDERTON & PADDY (MORTIMER’S FRONT GUNNER)
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[underlined] OUR 150 SQDN. SKIPPER SGT. STAN RUTHERFORD 416170 RNZAF [/underlined] [underlined] A WIMPEY AT BLIDA [/underlined]
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[photograph] AT RICHMOND SECOND HONEYMOON
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[warrant officer parchment]
52A
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[underlined] Screened [/underlined] .
September 1943 saw me at 84 O.T.U. Desborough, a Flight Sgt. with 43 ops under my belt, and that wonderful feeling of being ex-operational. For the next six months or so I was to be a "Course Shepherd", responsible for 12 Air Gunners. Desborough was a typical Operational Training Unit where, in the main, newly-trained aircrew were introduced to operational aircraft and the techniques of dealing with the opposition which was by no means limited to the Germans. There were three courses running simultaneously which gave ample scope to the Captains in making one of their most important decisions, that of selecting their crews.
For the first two weeks or so the training comprised mainly lectures and familiarisation with equipment. Air Gunners were generally able to make an early start with the flying where even on circuits and bumps an extra pair of eyes was to advantage.
The Course Shepherd ensured the smooth-running of the Air-Gunners training. There were specialist instructors for lectures on subjects such as guns, turrets and tactics, but the C.S. supervised their flying aspects and work on the range, in detail.
I particularly enjoyed the Fighter Affiliation sessions, where trainee gunners would take over the rear turret whilst being attacked by one or two Miles Masters or any other "Playmate" who could be cajoled officially to co-operate.
I would stand at the astrodome guiding the gunner with the timing of his advice and instructions to the Pilot. The standard evasive action (referred to later in 5 Group as "Combat Manouvre [sic] ") was the corkscrew, well known to, and anticipated by, the enemy, I might add that until I arrived at 84 OTU I had never even heard of the corkscrew. During the OTU excercises [sic] the fighter pilots were generally sporting enough not to press home their attacks with too much determination, but to allow the bomber sometimes to 'escape', thus giving the rear gunners - or some of them-- the false impression that they actually stood some chance of survival.
I felt quite at home in the "Wimpy" and encouraged the pilot to throw the aircraft around, and make the corkscrews rather more violent to simulate a real attack, where a quick getaway was the only solution to survival. For fighter affiliation excercises [sic] , the turret was equipped with an 8mm. Camera Gun, fitted in place of one of the four .303 Browning machine guns, the remaining three Brownings being de-armed. Each gunner plugged-in his own personal film cassette, and results were assessed the following day in the cinema.
Air firing excercises [sic] were supervised, where the speed of the Wellington was reduced, and a Miles Master would overtake about 3 or 400 yards abeam, towing a drogue. The gunner would be authorised to fire when the towing aircraft was outside his field of fire. He would then fire off about 200 rounds from each gun (five 2-second bursts), at the drogue. It was more than likely that air firing during his initial training had been carried out using a single gun not mounted in a turret. Air to ground firing was limited to a single exercise on a range near the coast, there being little scope for this type of work for heavy bombers over Deutchland.
Not very popular with the coming of Winter weather were the exercises at the firing butts or range. Six trainees would each be given a rear turret, together with four belts each of 200 rounds. He would
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mount the guns and fit the ammunition belts. Take-off procedure with safety catches 'on', then firing a few short bursts, landing procedure, clear the guns, etc. . Generally a few faulty rounds were deliberately built-in to create gun stoppages which the trainee had to clear. Finally he removed the guns from the turret and stripped and cleaned them ready for the next trainee.
All this took about three hours and it was on one of these sessions that unpleasantness developed with one of the trainees. Of the 12 Air Gunners in my little flock, eleven were Sergeants and one was an Acting Pilot Officer on probation. Like the others, his previous flying experience was limited to about 8 hours, and he had not yet been within 10 miles of an operational aircraft. He had been top of his course at Gunnery School and granted a Commission. I found that one of the Sergeants had fitted the guns in the turret and armed them with the belts of ammunition for him whilst I was busy with the others. He had managed to fire-off the rounds, and eventually, with some assistance the guns were removed. He flatly refused to clean the guns, claiming that it was an inappropriate task for an officer. I put it to him that although on a squadron the guns would be lovingly cared for by the armourers, he must still be fully au-fait with every aspect of guns and gunnery. He firmly refused to touch the guns and soil his hands and I told him that unless he gets on with it, we should be late for lunch. Four of the sgts. each took a gun and cleaned them. Some very cryptic comments were made by the Sergeants and I told the Ag. P. O. he was foolish. Later that day, to my absolute astonishment, I was marched in front of the C.O. and charged on a form 252 with insubordination. I was advised that an N.C.O. does not give orders to officers and I replied with something to the effect that I was the instructor and the officer the pupil, giving orders was an essential part of the job. Nevertheless, I was severely reprimanded. I had on several occasions applied for a posting back to operations, and the following day the Station W.O. told me my request had been granted and I was going to a squadron at Norton, near Sheffield in Yorkshire. Which squadron and with what type of aircraft was unimportant. I had never heard of Norton, bit hush-hush they had said. I should have realised that something was amiss, I was not being posted, but only detached. On arrival at Norton I found I was on an Aircrew Refresher Course which I was slow to realise was a correction or discipline course, a form of punishment. There were about 150 aircrew at Norton, from Flt/Lts to Sgts, almost all operational or ex-operational. At least I was among friends.
The day started with a call at 0600, on parade at 0630 , march to breakfast and an inspection at 0730 with greatcoats, followed almost immediately by a further inspection without greatcoats. This was followed until 1800 by sessions of drill, P.T. and lectures, with a break for lunch. Drill was just ordinary uninspiring square -bashing, wearing aircrew-issue shoes, and not boots. The instructor, said to be an L.A.C. Ag-Sgt. shouted commands and abuse, and was indeed very smart and probably efficient at his job, but utterly ignorant and useless off the barrack square. There was no rifle drill, and requests to introduce it were rejected. It was too easy for us to obtain .303 ammunition. P. T. was equally uninspiring and great emphasis was placed on recording improvement in performance as the training progressed. Lectures were farcical and covered most aircrew subjects, including navigation, gunnery, bombing techniques, target marking, etc. etc. There was not a
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flying badge among the instructors and obviously none had any flying experience in any capacity. No-one could possibly take the lectures seriously and there must have been some hair-raising answers in the written tests. The main problem was that at the slightest provocation one could be put on C.O.'s report. This was not a formal charge - which would have been on record - but an interview with the C.O. which would generally wind-up with an award of an extra 3 weeks at Sheffield. My policy was to keep my head down, or in modern parlance, to maintain a low profile. I generally managed to be near the back of the classroom and in the rear ranks on the drill square trying to be invisible. We were allowed out of camp after 1900, with an inspection at the gate, but lights out was at 2200, not allowing much scope. Most evenings were spent in the mess comparing notes and discussing our "crimes"; the instructors were conspicuous by their absence. I recall no-one admitting to flying or taxiing accidents, or misdemeanours whilst flying. Most of the reasons seem to have been absence without leave probably through boredom-, saying the wrong thing in an off-guarded moment or making someone more senior look silly. There was no connection between Norton and aircrew who were alledgedly [sic] L.M.F. or those who were reluctant to fly. Rather than charge a man formally with an offence, the easy way out was to send him on a "refresher course" with no reference to alleged crime or punishment. Operational aircrew discipline is often quoted as having been unique. All jobs were carried out with the same degree of dexterity, and responsibilities in the air within a trade were the same irrespective of rank. The Pilot was the Head Man, whether Squadron Leader or Sergeant. In the air, there were no formalities. The Pilot was 'Skipper' and no-one called anyone 'Sir'. This was generally so on the ground within the confines of the crew, but if it was a non-crew matter or there were V.I.P.'s about, a low-level type of formality might be introduced. Neither was there time for formality in the air where an attack may start and finish - one way or another - in seconds or less. On sighting a fighter at 300 yards a Rear Gunner in a film picked up a microphone and was beard to say "I say Skipper, I think we are being followed". A Guardsman might come up with "Permission to speak Sir", but life's not like that in the air.
Nearing the end of the 3-week course at Sheffield came the farcical final exams. I sailed through everything except P.T. where we were required to run 100 yards in 14 seconds. I was feeling fitter than I had for many years, but that 100 yards took me 17 seconds. Not good enough, try again. The second attempt took 19 seconds and the third attempt 24. I was told that "we would keep doing it all bloody night until I achieved it in 14 seconds". I merely said there was no point in attempting the impossible and I refused to carry out an unlawful order. So for me it was C.O.'s report next day. The C.O. said it was within his power to grant me an indefinite extension to the length of my course. I realised that to argue was probably futile and I recall being contradictory by saying something to the effect that "I have nothing to say except to remind everyone there is a real war going an out there and the sooner some of us get on with it the better". I don't know why I said it or thought what it might achieve, but I was easily provoked. I was awarded an extra 3 weeks at Sheffield, and was very surprised next morning when I was issued with a railway warrant to leave that morning with the others on my "course". I was convinced this was a mistake and succeeded in remaining invisible until I was well clear of Sheffield.
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Most of us felt the invasion of Europe was imminent and we had discussed our plans in the mess within earshot of the 'instructors'. When the balloon goes up, we return to base regardless of the opposition on the grounds that it was our duty to escape from captivity. In retrospect this was not entirely logical thinking but it might have influenced the C.O., I don't know. As far as I know there was no mass exodus and I have no idea how or when R.A.F. Norton was finally closed down. Suffice to say that it was a disgrace and an insult to aircrew, it would have been far more British to charge a man if he had allegedly done something wrong rather than take this easy way out. In general, training and lectures were taken very seriously by air crew and it could be claimed that the type and standard of lectures at Norton were in fact dangerous. Most of us realised it was just a load of absolute rubbish and did not take it seriously, and we had learned long ago to assess the value of the spoken word relative to the background and qualifications of the speaker.
The question of L.M.F. is an even more deplorable but entirely separate subject. Books have been written about it and it became a highly controversial issue. There were indeed some chaps who took such a bashing they felt they had had enough and to continue would increase the risk to the aircraft and crew or even crews. Most other operational aircrew have no less respect for them for admitting it and asking to be excused. L.M.F. and R.A.F. Norton were totally unconnected.
However, feeling very fit physically, and mentally ready to deal with the Ag. P. O. who knew all about the form 252 but couldn't strip even a Browning gun, I returned to 84 O.T.U. Desborough. A written request for an interview with the C.O. was given to the S.W.O. within minutes of arrival. I saw the Gunnery Leader and learned that I was to resume charge of the same course but less the sprog officer who was last seen on his way to Eastchurch as L.M.F and unsuitable for operations. I found later that he had been reduced to the ranks. It seems the other instructors had given him a very hard time all round, and particularly with combat manouvres where he was sick every time he flew. It was just not done to issue 252's but his chances of survival were improved. The C.O. agreed later that a mistake had been made and on paper my case had been reconsidered and the severe rep. withdrawn. Sheffield could not be undone and would have to be written off to experience, but he would see if he could hasten my promotion to W.O. and a posting to a real squadron.
At this time, the O.T.U. instructors were all crewed up and ready to back up the operational squadrons if necessary. Many of us were getting restless seeing a great increase in ground activity to the south and southeast. Lots of real aircraft, Lancasters, Halifaxes, Mosquitoes, Gliders etc. etc. and our status with the Wimpies as ex operational did little for our ego, making us feel like the 'has beens' we really were.
At about 0200 on the 6th. June, now a Warrant Officer, I was Orderly Officer and asleep in the duty room. The Duty Officer, a Ft/Lt. was flat out in the other bunk. A message was delivered marked "Top Secret" and I awakened the Duty Officer. He told me to open it. The message caused his to open a sealed envelope from his pocket and his exact words were "Christ, it’s started". 'It' was "Operation Overlord". Within a minute the Tannoy was blaring "All Duty Flight personnel to their flights immediately" 'All sreened aircrews to the Briefing Room
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at 0500," and so on. There followed a day of intense activity; air tests, bombing up, briefing, changing the bomb load, rebriefing, and the job of Orderly Officer went completely by the board.
In July, the great moment arrived, and our complete second tour crew of five was posted to Aircrew Pool at Scampton en route ultimately to a 5 Group Squadron.
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[photograph]
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[photograph] AT AIRCREW POOL SCAMPTON AUG ‘44
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[underlined] SCAMPTON [/underlined]
For Wellingtons we were indeed a complete crew, but we were not destined for Wellingtons, but Lancasters, and we needed either a Navigator or Bomb-aimer and another Gunner. Our Pilot and Observer had already completed tours on Blenheims and were good material for Mosquitos. They said cheerio on our third day at Scampton and were posted to a Mosquito Conversion Unit. The remaining three of us had ceased to exist as a crew and had become “odd bods”. We began to feel like members of staff but eventually we went our individual ways. Indeed I was put in charge of the Night Vision Centre for two months, until I met a pilot who was a Flight Lieutenant with a tunic that had obviously seen some service, and he had over 3,000 flying hours to his credit. With him was a Flying Officer Observer plus DFM, obviously clued up and who looked the academic type, a cheerful Flying Officer Bomb aimer and a Pilot Officer Rear Gunner. Four clued-up characters forming the nucleus of a gen crew. Somehow or other I became their other gunner and we were joined by a second tour F/Sgt Wireless operator and a Sgt. Flight Engineer ex fitter. A few days later we were posted to Winthorpe to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit and settled into a course on Stirlings, flying together for the first time as a crew.
Familiarisation with a four-engined aircraft was the main purpose of the course; important to the skipper F/Lt. Chester who had been a Flying Instructor on Tiger Moths in Canada for a long time. He was about 8 years older than the rest of us and we were happy with his rather more mature approach to the job. The Flight Engineer, Sgt. Hampson, whom we called Doogan for no apparent reason, had flown on Liberators over Burma and nothing seemed to worry him unduly. F/O Pete Cheale was successful on two or three practice bombing sessions, and to F/O Ted Foster DFM it was all just routine stuff. F/Sgt. Frank Eaglestone’s radio was the same as on his previous tour, the good old R1155 and T1154 (still in service in 1960). The Rear Gunner was P/O Harvey who nattered endlessly about a chunk of flack [sic] still embedded somewhere about his person, and his first tour in general. He knew it all, or thought he did, but it soon became apparent that his experience was very limited and he had yet to do his first trip against the enemy. Because of this I insisted that he should have the mid-upper turret, and as Senior gunner, pulling a negative seniority in rank, I would take over the rear turret. He didn’t like that at all, and he left the crew. What became of him I don’t know, but Flt/Sgt Foolkes appeared from somewhere and took his place. Pete was one to take everything in his stride and was welcome to either turret. He preferred the mid-upper, possibly finding it more comfortable, being much taller than the average rear gunner. As for me, one rear turret was very much like another, the same Frazer Nash FN120 we had used on the later Marks of Wellington. A few mod cons perhaps, such as Hot air central heating in the turret. I recall that when we touched down on the runway at Winthorpe, the rear turret was still over the graveyard on the other side of the main road.
Whilst at Winthorpe, I found that 150, my old squadron, was about 20 miles away at Hemswell. I paid them a visit, but their only real link with the 150 of North Africa was the squadron number. 150 Squadron had been disbanded in Algiers though it’s final station was Foggia in Italy. I left
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it at Kairouan just before the move to Italy. Later it was re-formed with Lancasters and in theory had been in action since the beginning of the war, having been at the forefront with Fairey Battles in 1939-40 in France.
After about three weeks of routine and not very demanding training we graduated to the “Lanc” Finishing School” at Syerston. There we converted to Lancasters with about 14 hours flying, circuits and bumps, the odd practice bombing exercises, fighter affiliation and a Bullseye over London, co-operating with searchlights. Just what the Londoners down below thought of this aerial activity without an air raid warning was probably misconstrued. We were still in one piece, feeling fit, very confident and ready to join a squadron.
Our next move was to Bardney, near Lincoln, about 160 bods, and judging by their ranks and gongs, a rather experienced bunch, mostly second tour types. Bardney was the home of 617 and 9 Squadrons, rumours were rife of course. Were we obvious replacements for 617, where prestige was high and directly proportionate to the losses, - the highest in the Command? Our luck held, we were to become a new squadron, 227, just an ordinary Lancaster Squadron to enhance the might of 5 Group. It transpired that we were to become “A” Flight, and the Skipper was promoted to Squadron Leader. Meanwhile “B” Flight was forming at Strubby.
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[underlined] 227 SQUADRON [/underlined]
The first op. by aircraft of the newly-formed 227 Squadron was on the 11th. of October 1944 and most of us at Bardney were not even aware of it. Only three aircraft of "B" Flight, forming up at Strubby, were involved, a short early afternoon trip to FLUSHING. Three nights later "A" Flight provided three aircraft and "B" Flight four aircraft on a more typical raid by 240 aircraft of 5 Group on BRUNSWICK. The Squadron was beginning to take shape and on the 17th., two aircraft of "B" Flight joined 47 others on a short excursion to breach the dyke at WESTKAPELL. Two nights later was a 5 Group effort to NUREMBURG, with "A" and "B" Flights providing seven and five aircraft respectively. This fourth raid by 227 aircraft was only "A' Flight's second involvement, the aircraft and crews really becoming attached for this purpose to 9 Squadron.
On the 21st. October we were transferred to Balderton, at the side of the A1 near Newark and joined the crews of "B" flight.
Our Skipper had been promoted to Sqdn/Ldr. in command of "A" Flight, and was very such absorbed in getting his half of the squadron organised and operational, with little time left for actual flying. Our crew was kept busy in their respective sections, particularly Navigation, Bombing and Wireless, but there was not a great deal to be done in the Gunnery office: The Gunnery Leader was Flt/Lt. Maxted who occupied a small office in a sectioned-off Nissen hut. It was barely furnished with a desk and a few chairs; posters on the wall amplifying the vital issues and a notice board. The state of readiness of each aircraft and gunner was displayed with a record of daily inspections completed. The D.I. 's were an important part of the routine, and the gunners generally took part in the air tests prior to bombing up.
Our first mission as a crew was to Bergen in Norway. It was also a personal first trip for the Skipper, Bomb aimer and Flight Engineer. It was my 46th. op. but also my first in the mighty Lancaster. The Navigator, Wireless op. and Mid-upper gunner were all veterans having carried out their first tours on Lancs.
Our flight out over the North Sea which used to be called the German Ocean by some was uneventful, and Bergen was approached from the east at 10,000 feet. With the target ahead and in sight to those in the front office, all was quiet except for engine noise through someones [sic] microphone which had been left switched on. Peace was shattered by an almighty bang and shudder, confirming we had been hit, and the nose of the aircaft [sic] went down. I was forced against the left side of the turret unable to move, and found later the speed had built-up to over 370 mph. The Skipper was shouting for assistance. Ace the Navigator somehow managed to crawl forward a few feet and found Doogan with his head in the observation blister admiring the view of Bergen above. The Skipper had both feet on the dash trying to pull the aircraft out of the dive. The only control Ace could reach was the trimming wheel on the right of the Skipper's seat and he turned this to make the aircraft tail heavy. The nose came up and so did the target. The Flight Engineer added his contribution by exclaiming "Coo, i'n' [sic] it wizard". That was his opinion, but we were heading straight up the fiord and Ace brought this to the attention of the Skipper very smartly. Our height was down to 1500 feet and Ace and the Skipper somehow managed to turn the aircraft through 180
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degrees without hitting either the sea or the hills. Still tail heavy, we gradually climbed away to the west, and for the first time I saw the target, dead astern, always a welcome sight, and I set about sorting myself out from the intercom. leads, electrical heating cable, oxygen pipe and also checking that the turret doors would still open. Silence was broken about 100 miles from Bergen by our brash young Canadian Bomb Aimer, Pete Chiele, "Skipper, we still have the bombs-aboard". I think It-was Ace, who pulled the jettison toggle. At least my turret seemed intact and I took the opportunity of the lull in the drama of opening the turret door with my elbows, leaning backwards into the fuselage and making sure I could reach my parachute pack. Then a quick reversal and I was again "on the job” after a break of less than ten seconds. On the Wimpey and Lanc. the Rear Gunner had a choice of exits, either through the rear escape hatch inside the fuselage, or direct from the rear turret. I was well rehearsed in the latter method, first to rotate the turret dead astern, using the manually operated handle if there was no hydaulic [sic] pressure, then to open the sliding doors. These never failed to open on practice sessions, but an axe was provided inside the turret just in case. Then to remove the parachute pack from its housing and drag it carefully into the turret, placing it above the control column. Off with the helmet complete with oxygen mask, intercom, 24 volt supply and associated pipes and cables and also the electrical heating cable connector. The parachute pack was then clipped on, the turret rotated onto either beam, lean backwards and push with the feet. The alternative exit gave one more room to manouvre [sic] , but the escape hatch itself was rather narrow for a Rear Gunner wearing his full flying kit, particularly the 1944 version of "Canary suit", so-called because of its colour. There was also the phsychological [sic] aspect of deliberately entering an aircraft which was probably on fire. On the Wellington Mk1C with an FN20 turret and only two guns, there was provision to stow the 'chute pack inside the turret. Also the doors were hinged, opening outwards and they could be jettisoned. Although I mentioned being well rehearsed, drill was carried out with the aircraft stationary and upright, not quite the same as in an anticipated emergency bale-out. My only excuse for claiming the checking of my 'chute as practice was that I felt I should be doing something more useful than just sitting there, whilst there seemed to be so much happening up front. There was even more drama unfolding, the Wireless op. had passed a coded message to the Navigator instructing us to divert to Holme on Spalding Moor in Yorkshire, but only the W/op was issued with the code-sheet of the day. The Skipper did not receive the message in plain language until we were in R/T contact with Balderton, which was closed due to thick fog or very low cloud. However, the Navigator knew our exact location and there was fuel in the tanks. Eventually we re-joined the tail-end of the gaggle and landed at Holme. I recall spending the rest of the night on the floor in the lounge of the Sgts. Mess. The following morning we took a walk around the hangars and Doogan chatted with some ground crews who were changing an engine on a Halifax. He actually told then they were not going about it properly and their reaction was quite startling and informative.
Our second trip as a crew was two days later, to WALCHEREN in daylight. This was more reminiscent of our raids from North Africa except that 110 aircraft, including 8 Mosquitoes, took part. From North Africa our "Maximum Effort" had been two squadrons, a total of 26 aircraft, which
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seemed a lot at the time!. 12 aircraft from 227 took part, each having its own specific target, ours being a gun battery which was already completely submerged in water when we arrived. Just ahead several aircaft [sic] were bombing the sea wall and the Skipper decided to back them up, bombing from 3500 feet. The wall was breached and the sea poured through, but our bombs were all fused for delayed action which would not have amused the natives. In fact too much damage was done which, according to a story in Readers Digest, took over six months to repair. However, the main object was to silence the German artillary [sic] and this was achieved. This particular trip had been our introduction to the "formation" known as the "5 Group Gaggle". Pilots were not very practiced at Straight and level flying, it had been seldom recommended, and it seemed to me as a Rear gunner that everyone weaved along in the same direction, taking great pains to stay as far away as possible from other aircraft, but remaining in the stream.
Two days later Ches. and Co. joined 16 other crews from 227 on an afternoon excusion [sic] to an oil plant at HOMBURG. The ground was mostly obscured by cloud and visibility at 17,000 feet was poor, about three miles. Approaching the target a Lancaster in front of us was hit by flak and one engine was on fire. The aircraft passed below us and the fire was extinguished, but its no. 2 engine was stopped. It remained just behind us until we were over the target. The target was marked by 8 Mosquitoes of 8 Group, but marking was scattered over a wide area and out of the 228 Lancasters only 159 bombed. Results were poor, a recce. next day showed that most of the bombs had hit the industrial and residential areas. One Lancaster was lost, due to flak.
The following night 15 aircraft of 227 joined a total force of 992 aircraft on DUSSELDORF. Our Skipper flew as Second Dickie to F/L Kilgour, and the rest of us kicked our heels. This was the last heavy raid on Dusseldorf by Bomber Command, and 18 aircraft were lost. F/O Croskell and crew failed to return, our first 227 Sqdn casualties, but news was received shortly afterward they were safe in Allied hands. They were operational with the squadron again in Feb.
On the 11th. of November, we surprisingly found ourselves on the Battle Order for an evening raid on the Rhenania-Ossag oil refinery at HARBURG, close to the battered Hamburg. This was a 5 Group effort with 237 Lancasters and 8 Mosquitoes. 7 Lancasters were lost, including 9J"S" with F/O Hooper and crew. F/O Bates' crew reported that "oil tanks were seen to explode at 1924 hrs". but German records make no reference to the oil tanks, only that 119 people were killed and 5205 others were bombed out. Flak was not intense and the bombing appeared to be mainly on target. There were fighters about but the return journey was uneventful for us. Once again we were beaten by the fog at Balderton, and as our new F.I.D.O. was not yet operational, we were diverted to Catfoss. The night was spent in the chairs in the Sgts. Mess, but the officers among us were luckier to find beds.
For most of the following four weeks we were without either a Skipper or a Navigator. The Skipper was detached "on a course" and then spent a couple of weeks on a Summary of Evidence. Ace the Navigator was detached to Newmarket racecourse to clue up on some new equipment or technique. For three days I was detatched [sic] to Waddington as a Witnessing Officer at a Court Martial, which I found depressing. It seemed that at Waddington there had been an old car which was used by anyone who could find some petrol to run it. It was the property of an unlucky aircrew
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member who failed to return one night. The car was very useful, but whilst having neither licence nor insurance it was eventually involved in a serious accident, and the R.A.F. took over where the civilian court left off.
0n the 6th. December I had a letter of complaint from my mother, enclosing a newspaper cutting from the Barnoldswick & Earby Pioneer, showing a photo of me and referring to my award of a D.F.C. Why had I not told her? I don't think she ever believed me when I claimed that her letter was the first I knew of it. On Dec. 11th., with Ace still at Newmarket, we became 'Dambusters' - of a sort - for the day. Bomber Command Diary states " "233 Lancasters of 5 Group and 5 Mosquitoes of 8 Group took part. Hits were scored on the dam but no breach was made. 1 Lancaster lost". The squadron diary reflects a successful sortie, in that direct hits on the dam wall were observed, but the 1000 lb. bombs were too small for the purpose. My own recollection of the raid was quite different. We were stooging along just above cloud in company with scores of other Lancasters when the others were seen to be doing a 180 degree turn. Within seconds the sky within my range of vision was empty and in all directions no-one could see another aircraft. The mid-upper and I advised the Skipper that we were now unaccompanied and for 20 minutes we tried to impress upon him that we were extremely vulneruble [sic] (or words to that effect). We were just a few hundred feet above and silhouetted against a layer of stratus and I asked him to fly just inside the cloud, or at least just to skim the tops, but he replied that it was too dangerous, too much risk of collision. The mid-upper gunner agreed, collision from Gerry fighters. Vocabulary worsened and finally the Skipper realised we were 40 minutes and over 200 miles from the rest of the gaggle, we turned round. It has been suggested that as Flight Commander he must display a press-on attitude, and we were all in favour of this, but there was no-one around to impress and it was pretty obvious to the gunners that either Frank had missed a diversion message or we were in the wrong gaggle. Bomber Command Diary disproves the latter, but there is still uncertainty in my mind about that particular operation. Both Pete in the mid-upper turret and I realised that if we were attacked by fighters the Skipper would not take the slightest notice of our requests or advice. We were not disputing that the Skipper was in charge and the one who makes the decissions [sic] , but in our situation he had no choice other than to take advantage of the cloud. We regarded this as an expression of no confidence in the gunners, and we made it very clear to him both then and later that it was no way to finish a tour.
It was 10 days before we flew again, our 6th. trip with 227 embarking on their 22nd. trip as a squadron. The target was the synthetic oil plant at POLITZ, in the Baltic. 207 Lancasters and 1 Mosquito were detailed, including 13 Lancasters of 227. Two from 227 experienced mechanical failure and aborted soon after take-off. This was a long stooge, and 3 Lancasters were lost, plus a further 5 which crash-landed in England. The raid was successful, the main chimneys having collapsed and other parts of the refinery being severely damaged. On return to eastern England we were again unable to land at Base due to weather, and were diverted to Milltown, in Scotland. Fuel gauges were reading zero or less when a weary Ches. and crew finally landed after a trip lasting 10 hrs. and 15 minutes. F/O Croker in 9J"K" wound up at Wick, in Morayshire, his aircraft being so badly shot-up it was declared
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a write-off. The following morning we flew to Wick to join F/O Croker and crew and give then a lift back to Balderton. Among others, there was a Met. Flight at Wick, equipped with B17s, Flying Fortresses. It was their job to climb to a great height, making Met. observations, and some of their trips exceeded 12 hours duration. I recall the armourers at Wick cleaned and polished our three turrets and 8 Browning guns without being asked, and making a very good job of it too. Everyone was provided with beds, and it seems the officers were so comfortable the Skipper decided to stay at Wick over Christmas. The town of Wick was "dry', no pubs, but among the N.C.O's, this made no difference, we had no money with us. Normally on a diversion we didn't need any money, but for a several day stop-over it was embarassing [sic] to be absolutely without. We would like to have taken our turn in paying for the drinks is the Mess. I seem to recall trying to obtain an advance from Pay accounts without success, accompanied by the other two W/Os in our crew. I was reminded of one incident at Wick by Ace, our Navigator; We were not like most other crews, sticking together as a crew. The Commissioned officers kept to themselves, the three Warrant Officers maintained their own little triangle, and Doogan prefered [sic] his own company despite the W/O's efforts to get him to join us. It seems that one night at Wick we carried him and his bed outside and he awoke next morning in the middle of the parade ground which was covered is snow. I have no personal recollection of this, but there it is in black and white in Ace's book, 'Just Another Flying Arsehole'. We returned to Balderton on the 27th., with 14 of us aboard, and did not see the ground until we actually touched down. For the first time we landed with the assistance of FIDO, which was probably very scary for the pilot. In the rear turret I just got an impression of landing in the middle of a fire.
The following night we missed a trip to OSLO, our squadron providing only 5 of the force of 67 Lancasters. On the afternoon of the 30th. we were briefed for an evening take-off to HOUFFALIZE, a total force of 154 Lancasters and 12 Mosquitoes. German Panzers had broken through the American lines in a desperate attempt to thwart the Allied advance, in what became known as the Battle of the Bulge. The weather gave the Germans the advantage, low cloud and thick fog prevented the 2nd. Tactical Air Force from playing its part to the full. With almost 100% Allied air superiority in the area, Typhoons and other fighters operating on a cab-rank principle responding in seconds to detailed requests from the chaps below, Gerry was learning what it was like to be at the receiving end of the slaughter he started is 1939. But not for that few days at the end of 1944 in the Fallaise gap. The close proximity of Allied troops called for great accuracy in bombing and straffing [sic] , and this was not possible in the prevailing conditions. Because of the bad weather in the target area, take-off was postponed every few hours but we were eventually relieved to get airborne about 0230. Conditions over the target were quite impossible and the flares dropped into the murk below probably caused hearts on both sides to miss a few beats. Some crews did bomb, but Chas. quite rightly felt it was too risky. We had not been briefed for any secondary target so our bombs wound up in the Wash. Finally, we landed at about 0830 after 24 hours of effort of one sort or another. Nothing really achieved, but at least we had tried.
It was about this time that my father visited the Squadron for a few days. He was a Captain in the R.A.S.C. recently returned from East
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Africa and awaiting release on medical grounds. He was very impressed with what he saw but we could not obtain authority for him to actually fly with us. On the Sunday morning he watched our parade and later mentioned that as the W/O called out names, one Ft/Sgt responded to at least five of them. Also that some were in best blues, some in battledress, one or two with greatcoats and one even with a raincape. Two were actually standing on parade with bicycles ready to shoot off somewhere immediately after the parade. His thoughts at the time were how can such an undisciplined lot perform any serious task. Later that morning sitting in the Gunnery Office, gunners came in with more of a wave than a salute, a brief word from them and I would put a tick on the board against their aircraft. I explained to my father that this was their way of reporting that their turrets and guns had received and passed the daily inspection. After lunch in the mess he noticed a great deal of activity and movement, and a clear but quiet sense of urgency. He asked what was happening and I showed him the Battle Order.
The following day he said how wrong was his first impression. Everyone had a job to do, they know what was required of them and they got as with it without any shouting of orders or people stamping around. I was Duty Gunnery Leader that night, as was my lot quite often over that period, and was able to show my father what made a squadron tick. He thoroughly enjoyed his stay, but I don't think he met the Skipper. In fact I don't think we saw anything of our Skipper during the whole month of January, by the end of which 227 had completed 33 ops. "A” Flight Commander's crew had totted up only 7 as a crew and some of us were not at all happy with this performance. On the 2nd. Feb. F/O Bates was short of a Rear Gunner and I could have kissed him when he asked me to deputise for WO Bowman. This was an experienced and popular crew who had already completed 14 trips of their second tour. Bowman was in fact the only one outside our crew I had known a year ago. We had carried out our first tours together on 150 Sqdn. Wellingtons, and he was the only other 227 bod with an Africa Star. I cannot recollect why he was not available that night. Our target was KARLSRUHE, a 5 Group effort of 250 Lancasters and 11 Mosquitoes, of which 19 were from 227. Cloud up to 15000 feet and the consequent difficulty in marking caused the raid to be a failure. 14 Lancasters were lost, including 9J"D" with F/O Geddes and crew. The total effort of Bomber Command that night was 1252 sorties. Targets included Wiesbaden's only large raid of the war, and Wanne-Eickel, neither attack was regarded as a success. Very little was achieved that night for a loss of 21 aircraft.
On the night of the 7th. Feb., F/O Bates was airborne again with 11 others from Balderton in a total force of 188 aircraft, to the Dortmund-Ems Canal. All 227 Sqdn. a/c returned safely, but 3 were lost in all. I was not with him this time although W/O Bowman was not available. After about 5 hours sleep the Battle Order for the coming night showed 18 crews from 227 sqdn., including F/O Bates, with F/O Watson as Rear Gunner. It felt great to be doing something useful. The weather en route was clear and there were still fighters about, largely responsible for the loss of 12 Lancasters, but the bombing was extremely accurate. According to Speer, the German armaments minister, the oil refinery was kaput for the reminder of the war and a big setback to the German war effort. All 227 sqdn aircraft returned safely, one, F/O Edge's 9J"B" having aborted with problems on 2 engines and landed safely at a farm in Norfolk. It was in fact F/O Bates’ 18th. and final trip on
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227 sqdn., a very satisfactory finish. It was a satisfying night too for 'our own' Navigator, Ted Foster who flew as a 'spare Bod' Navigator with F//Lt [sic] Pond. On the 14th. Feb., 6 weeks into what surely must be the final year in the war against Germany, we were no doubt startled to see our Skipper and crew on the Battle Order. A 5 Group effort, the target was ROSITZ oil refinery near Leipsig [sic] , a force of 232 Lancasters and Mosquitoes, including 12 from Balderton. Our aircraft was 9J"H" and a couple of hours or so after take-off the Skipper found he could not come to terms with his magnetic compass, the performance of which was erratic. An hour or so later the Giro compass also started to play up and fortunately the Skipper did accept the advice of the Navigator and turned back, navigating solely on "Gee" back to base. It was not possible to carry-on navigating to the target on "Gee", we would have [inserted] 14/2/45 Rositz [/inserted] been out of range long before the target was reached. 9J"G" skippered by F/O Tate had engine trouble just after take-off and returned on three engines. We were the second aircraft to abort on that trip. There were some ribald comments next day when the Instrument Section reported there was nothing wrong with either compass. The comments were not facetious however, no-one would seriously accuse either the Skipper or an experienced Navigator like Ace of pulling a fast one. Both I am quite sure would have preferred to take part in the destruction of Rositz This was in fact the Skipper's final trip, although we did not realise it at the time and still regarded his as our Skipper for the next two months.
The record shows that in the following four weeks Ace did three spare bod trips whilst the rest of the crew passed the time somehow. The spell was broken for me when F/Lt Hodson asked me to take over his rear turret on the 14th. of March. Ace had already done his last bombing raid although he too might not have realised it at the time. His grand finale, quite fitting was a daylight 1000 plus Bomber raid on DORTMUND on the 12th. of March, as Wing Commander Millington's Navigator. It was also to be the Wingco's final trip before swapping his duralumin pilot's seat with a little steel armour plating at his back, for I think a wooden one in the House of Commons where his back was probably just as vulnerable.
Our target was another oil refinery, at LUTZKENDORF, a typical 5 Group effort of 244 Lancasters and 11 Mosquitoes, 15 of the former being from Balderton. We enjoyed the company of F/O Howard as 2nd. Pilot. In fact five aircraft from 227 Sqdn. carried 'Second Dickies' that night. Out of a total of 18 aircraft lost, two were from 227 Sqdn., both with Second pilots. It was feared by many that carrying a Second Pilot increased the risk, but I did not share this concern. The Second Pilot it is true would take the place of the Flight Engineer who would either stand between the two pilots or sit on the dickie-seat. Some drills had to be slightly modified for the occasion, but I would have thought the presence of an extra bod would tend to put the others more on their toes. The crew I was with were on their 18th. trip and had been with the Squadron from the outset. Nothing untoward happened to us, there was the usual flack and searchlights, maybe fighters but one saw none. Bombing seemed reasonable well concentrated and photo-reconnaissance next day showed that 'moderate damage' was caused.
On the 7th. of April the squadron completed its transfer to Strubby, and was detailed for action the same night. I was favoured to fly once more with F/Lt Hodson and crew, LEIPZIG again, this time to the
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Benzol plant at MOLBIS. 13 Lancasters of 227 joined 162 others and 11 Mosquitoes, all from 5 Group. The weather was good, bombing accurate, and the oil plant put completely out of action. No aircraft were lost and the raid was considered a 100% success.
After a few hours sleep we were briefed for an attack on LUTZKENDORF, the same target as on the 14th. March. It had been attacked the previous night by 272 aircraft from 1 and 8 Groups who caused only moderate damage. I was detailed to fly with W/O Clements and crew who were on the 5th. trip of their first tour, in 9J"Q". On take-off the starboard outer engine failed and Ace who waved us off said he saw the aircraft sink to within a few feet of the ground; but that few feet made all the difference and the Skipper was able to gain height gradually until it was safe to jettisson [sic] the bombs in the sea. The trip was aborted and a safe landing made at Strubby. Subsequent inspection showed a fuel leak from no.2 port tank and oil leaks from the two outer engines. 242 aircraft were on this raid, and 6 were lost, but another oil refinery was put out of action for the rest of the war. The 19 aircraft put up by 227 all returned safely and were diverted to the west because of weather.
Two nights later, on the 10th. I was again with W/O Clements, to the Wahren Railway yards at LEIPSIG. The force of 230 aircraft comprised 134 Lancasters, 90 Halifaxes, and 6 Mosquitoes, of which 1 Lancaster and 1 Halifax failed to return. Immediately prior to take off I had trouble with the turret sliding doors, they wouldn't close, but I rotated the turret onto the port beam as was general practice for take-off with the doors open. This was spotted from the ground and the Skipper was told on R/T soon after we were airborne. I had to get out of the turret and through the bulkhead door to fix them, but finally managed to get then to slide. If I had failed to fix then nothing would have made me admit it, it would just have been a little draughty. The trip went very well, the marking was accurate and the bombing concentrated. Some flak and plenty of fighter flares about but we saw no fighters. It was a quiet return trip and all 227 aircraft returned safely.
That was my last trip and also the last for W/O Clements and crew. It was the 57th. involvement by 227 Squadron which was to carry out 4 more bombing raids, terminating with BERCHTESGADEN itself, on the 25th. of April. The war in Europe was virtually over, but our impression was that 5 Group was to form the nucleus of Tiger Force to help finish the job in the Far East and we would be a part of it. It was with these thoughts that I went on leave on the 26th. April, a spare bod without a pilot, but still expecting to fly again with the squadron..
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64A
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F/O. CHEERFUL CHEALE R.C.A.F.
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F/O BATES F/O PETE CHEALE (BA) W/O PETE FOOLKES
S/LDR CHESTER (PILOT) F/O FOSTER
64B
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[photograph]
[photograph]
[photograph]
64C
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[photograph] F/O. TED FOSTER D.F.M.
C.W. PETE FOOLKES MID-UPPER
[photograph] [photograph]
64D
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[photograph] CLIFF’S OFFICE
[photograph]
[photograph] OUTSIDE OUR DES. RES.
C.W. & GEOFF HAMPSON (FLIGHT ENG
64E
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[newspaper cutting of D.F.C. award] [photograph]
227 SQDN W/OP – NAV – MID- UPPER
[photograph]
64F
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[photograph] [underlined] TED (ACE NAV) FOSTER D.F.M. BALDERTON NOV 44 [/underlined]
[photograph] [underlined] RUNNING UP ON HOMBERG 1/11/44 AT LUNCHTIME [indecipherable word] [/underlined]
64G
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[photograph] [underlined] F/O. BATES [/underlined]
[photograph] [underlined] F/O BATES W/O JENNERY (NAV) SGT. WESTON (FLT. ENG) [/underlined]
FEB 45
64H
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[DFC citation]
64L
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[letter from HM George VI]
64M
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[Sgt Mess Wick Christmas Menus 1944]
[photograph]
F/O CROKER’S LANCASTER AT REST IN TORPEDO DUMP XMAS ‘44
64N
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[inside of christmas card]
CHRISTMAS CARD FROM PETE IN CANADA
64P
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[photograph]
STIRLING AT H.C.U. WINTHORPE
[photograph]
AT BLIDA
[photograph]
LANCASTER AT SYERSTON
74A
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[letter of introduction to airfield manager in Iran]
154A
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[photograph]
F/LT. MAXTED (GUNNERY LEADER) PETE FOOLKES & F/O SANDFORD (SPARE GUNNER OR SQDN ADJ)
[photograph]
TED FOSTER WITH BITS OF 9JO
[photograph]
64J
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[photograph]
GEOF. HAMPSON FLT. ENG.
[photograph of 9J-O]
[photograph of 9J-O]
64K
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[christmas card]
CHRISTMAS CARD FROM PETE IN CANADA
64P
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[typewritten letter]
[underlined] PART OF F/L CROKER’S LETTER WITH XMAS 1990 CARD [/underlined]
64Q
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[location map for 1994 reunion]
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[underlined] FINAL LEG [/underlined]
Recollections of events in my final 15 months in the R.A.F. are reasonably clear but somewhat hazy of detail and of the order in which they took place.
I was still with the Squadron on VE Day, the 5th. April, on leave in London with Hilda. I recall going up to Leicester Square by tube train with my father, Alice and Hilda to join the celebrations and actually walking back the five miles to Lavender Hill in the early hours. This would explain why I had no knowledge of the Victory Parade at Strubby until I was shown a photograph of it many years later. I was on leave again in London in early August when the Americans dropped the two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and suddenly the war was over. I was still in uniform and had to await my turn for demob.
I have no recollection of attending a Reselection Board when I was made redundant from flying, nor of actually leaving the Squadron. I think my first posting after the Squadron was to Gravely, as a Squadron adjutant. I had always thought that the Squadron was 106, but according to the Bomber Command War Diaries 106 was never at Gravely [sic] !. There is no mistaking the actual station, however, it is only 4 miles from my present home and parts of it are still recogniseable [sic] . I was astonished to find many years later that 227 Sqdn had transferred to Graveley about the 8th. of June and was disbanded there on the 5th. of September. I was there for about 6 weeks during which time we closed the Sargeants’ [sic] Mess and did a very little paper-work. We had neither aircrews nor aircraft, it was just a matter of holding office and very little else!. I probably spent most of it on leave.
I then became a Photographic Officer u/t and did a very interesting course at Farnborough which lasted 8 weeks. One of the instructors was a Sgt. Peter Clark, a leading Saville Row fashion photographer before the war and Hilda’s first employer. I went on leave yet again and was eventually told to report to 61 M.U. at Handforth in Cheshire as a u/t Equipment Officer. I duly reported to the Station Adjutant at Handforth feeling very much out of place. Of the hundreds of service types around only the ex-Air-Crew were in battle dress, the others were either in best blues or dungarees. I had always thought that battledress was the working uniform of the R.A.F., but it was not so at Handforth. I felt more as if I was in the Luftwaffe. The Station Adj. took me to see the Chief Equipment Officer, who was a Wing Commander and this feeling became even stronger. I reported formally and the C.E.O. said “And what the hell are you supposed to be?”. Those were his exact words and I did really wonder whether we were in the same air force. I replied that “I am here as a u/t equipment officer Sir”. “MM what’s your trade?” “Rear Gunner” – without waiting for the ‘Sir’, he exploded and almost shouted “That’s not a trade, it’s General Duties”. He was technically right but raising his voice unduly went on to add “You are supposed to be able to sit here and do my job, you’d feel a bloody fool doing my job, wouldn’t you!”. Fascinated by the smirk on his face and hypnotised by the Defence medal on his breast I just stood there in disbelief at this outburst and quietly laughed. “Well?” He wanted an answer and I said in a rather light vane “Yes Sir I would, but less of a bloody fool than some would have felt doing my job for the last three years”. That was it, he stood up and said “Right, come”. We went along the corridor and straight in to see the Station Commander, a Group Captain. The WingCo[sic] was very agitated and without preamble
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told the Groupie of my ‘gross insubordination’. He recited the dialogue in accurate detail and the Group Captain asked for my account. I agreed with the C.E.O.’s account but said that I was provoked, there was no reason for his outburst and I grinned only because I didn’t think he was being serious. Invited to comment the WingCo said he had been affronted by my being improperly dressed. I made no further comment and the Groupy told the WingCo that he would deal with the matter. The WingCo saluted and left, and I thought I was for the chop. The Group Captain sported R.F.C. wings and had obviously seen his share of action. He stood up and extended his right hand in friendship. “Sorry old chap, I didn’t get your name, do sit down”. I was back in the R.A.F. He asked “Where were you in Africa?” Not an idle question, followed by “Did you know Group Captain Powell?” Yes Sir, he was our Base Commander of 142 and 150 Squadrons, Speedy Powell of “F” for Freddie”. Speedy had been the Briefing officer in the film ‘Target for Tonight’. I mentioned some of his exploits and finally his loss, and the Group Captain was distressed. He told me that like the other 12 ex-Air Crew on the station, I was a square peg in a round hole, but to make the best of it and to go back to see him if I had a problem. In the mess that evening I met the others and soon found we were all on duty every day and every night. u/t Orderly Officer, then Orderly Officer, and through the whole range of Asst. Duty Officer, Duty Officer, Fire Picket, in-line Fire picket, Cyphers, Security, etc. etc. Only the ex Air-Crew Officers performed these tasks and after two weeks of this we agreed something must be done. One period of 24 hours I was Duty Cyphers Officer. This was just a title, there was neither Cyphers Section nor Intellegence[sic] Section and I found that for almost all the duties we were allocated there were no instructions. Several of us individually addressed the Station Adjutant in writing and one even enquired whether he should draw-up his own set of procedures for inclusion in Station Standing Orders. For reasons that could only have been sour grapes, there was a measure of ill-feeling between the ‘permanent’ equipment and Admin officers, and the air-crew types. Many of the former had spent the entire war at places like Handforth, and there is no doubt they did a vital job, and maybe were still doing it. In our case, the war for us was over, and after our experiences of the last few years there was a limit to the amount of being messed around that we were willing to accept. We discussed having fire drills with real fires and creating a few incidents for practice, but finally we drew lots and two of us applied through the C.E.O. to see the Group Captain. The C.E.O. refused permission so we made our request through the Station Adjutant. This was approved and we told the C.O. what was happening, we were being “imposed” upon from a great height. He called in the Station Adj. and told him that all Air Crew Officers would go on indefinite leave the following day. He told the two of us to ensure that all application forms were with the Station Adj. by 3 pm. And for me, it was straight to Whitehaven, in battledress.
I had applied for release from the Service under “Class B”, having an immediate job to take up which would in itself create work for 5 other ex-Servicemen. Hilda was in fact holding the fort in Whitehaven, and nothing came of the application.
It was about four months before I was recalled to Handforth, and immediately detached to no. 7 Site at Poynton to take over as Equipment Officer i/c and also as Officer i/c. the Prison Camp. There was an Equipment W/O running the Stores with about 200 Airmen and I agreed with him that it could
[page break]
stay that way. The Stores comprised 8 massive hangars full of equipment. I regarded my main job as O.C. the Stalag with its 1000 P.O.W.’s (750 Italian and 250 German) and my staff of 15 Air Crew N.C.O.s who had all been kriegsgefangener themselves. The Senior German prisoner was a Warrant Officer who spoke excellent English having studied it for 5 years in prison camps. Most of the prisoners, including the Italians, had been taken in the Western Desert. The Germans were very smart indeed, in contrast to the Italians, and the two axis partners had as little to do with each other as they could arrange. Gangs of prisoners were guarded by some of the 200 Airmen, supervised by ex-AirCrew NCO.s. The prisoners were not interested in escape, there would have been no point, but I put an immediate stop to their sneaking out of camp at night to try their luck. The German and Italian messes were separate from each other and staffed by R.A.F. cooks. The Germans asked if they could do their own cooking and I agreed but with nominal supervision of two airmen in case we had visitors. I made the same arrangement for the Italians but initially they refused. I appointed one of the Corporal Majors as Senior Iti [sic] and made him responsible. I threatened to fully-integrate them with the Germans if there was any nonsense, and with that some of them nearly burst into tears. They were a lazy shower. I had the Officers’ Mess all to myself, but that’s another story. It was a very cosy three months, with most long week-ends spent in Whitehaven where Hilda had taken-over the Relay system. It was also a tremendous anti-climax to the previous five years.
Eventually when the magic number 26 came up, I reported to R.A.F. Uxbridge for demob. and collected my pin-striped suit and a cardboard box to put it in. I realised then that my career in the R.A.F. was initially over. Straight to Whitehaven by train, still in battledress.
[page break]
[underlined] FIRST TOUR TARGETS [/underlined]
[table of targets and bomb loads]
71
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[table of targets and bomb loads continued]
[page break]
[underlined] 2nd TOUR [/underlined] [underlined] 227 SQUADRON [/underlined]
[table of targets and bomb loads with additions]
[underlined] 227 SQUADRON [/underlined]
After flying Beaufighters from Malta the Squadron folded in August 1944. The new Squadron was formed in 5 Group on 7/10/1944. Flying Lancasters from Bardney, Balderton and Strubby. Flew 815 sorties and lost 15 aircraft (1.8%) in 61 raids. 2 were also destroyed in crashes.
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[underlined] Back to Civvy Street [/underlined]
By early 1946 the great transition from War to Peace was taking place and many of us were gradually realising that we could now plan some years ahead with a very good possibility of surviving to carry them out. Of my colleagues at Metropolitan Relays, only Reg. Weller had paid with his life, having been killed in action in Italy, with the army. Allan Cutbush had been taken prisoner at Tobruk and spent some time in a prison camp in Italy. Eventually he escaped and spent a couple of years as an Italian farm worker. Soon after the invasion at Anzio he rejoined the Allies and had the greatest difficulty in convincing them that he really was a Private in the Royal Signals. Alan was first to be demobbed and rejoined the firm as manager of a newly aquired [sic] group of branches in the Mansfield and Retford areas. George Holah had left in 1939 to join the army, and spent the next six years in India, returning as a Major in the Indian army complete with an Anglo-Indian wife and family. George did not return to Relays, but joined the Metropolitan Police, and in 1975 was a Clerk in the Central Registry at New Scotland Yard. How he managed to transfer from being a private in the British army to a Commissioned Officer in the Indian army I don’t know, assuming it actually happened. I have not met George since 1939.
In June 1945, my father, Mrs. Kilham and Mr. Moulton bought privately another run-down radio relay system, West Cumberland Relay Services, Ltd., in Whitehaven, and I was invited to develop it. Although Germany had capitulated, the war was not yet over. Japan might have seemed a long way off but was still our Enemy and the job had to be finished. Meanwhile Hilda moved to Whitehaven and set-up home in the flat above the shop at 49 Lowther Street. Colin was then 9 months old and it was a further year before I was demobbed, but during that period I seemed to have spent most of my time in Whitehaven. Hilda kept the Relay ticking over, with very limited assistance from the staff, until March 1946 when I was given indefinite leave on compassionate grounds.
The relay was well and truly run down, with about 400 subscribers each paying 1/3d per week for two radio programmes. It was losing money fast, the entire network needed rewiring and the amplifiers and other equipment were just about a write-off. I had with me the name-plate from my office door at Poynton. One of the German prisoners had made it for me, a notice which proclaimed in Gothic characters
Obr. Lnt. Cliff. Watson D.F.C.,
LAGER COMMANDANT EINTRITT VERBOTTEN
I put this on my new office door, but drew a line through the bottom line.
Sorting out a fault on a 100 watt amplifier, I asked the engineer, Joe, for a soldering iron, and he said he never used one but preferred the special solder in a tube, which he handed to me. In that single sentence he had proved to me that his technical knowledge was just about zero. I demonstrated the solder’s futility by proving that it was not even an electrical conductor. Consequently all the equipment was full of dry joints and I spent a whole night in soldering connections. The stuff Joe was using out of a tube was for repairing small holes in pans and kettles. I was very disappointed in Joe, his technical
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knowledge was effectively less than zero. The next weekend he claimed to have worked all day Sunday clearing a line fault. He had deliberately caused this fault on the previous morning and I traced and corrected it myself within an hour of his doing so. He had shorted out two wires on our own roof and on Monday morning went straight onto the roof to remove the short. I was there waiting for him and sacked him on the spot for sabotage and dishonesty.
I thus took over the technical side but also looked closely at the system of collecting and keeping records of accounts and customers. The only record of payments was in the collector’s field book and there was no record of where the customers or relay installations actually were. I spent a week with the collector who was very reluctant to assist, and Hilda and I drew up a set of records and established a working system. In the next two weeks I found so many fiddles and had proof of so much skulduggery that I sacked the collector without notice. I found installations where the user claimed to have made one outright payment to the collector who had pocketed the money, a hundred or so loudspeakers recorded as being “on loan” which had in fact been paid for and all manner of other private arrangements. The collector was easily replaced, and Mr. Fee joined us. I was fortunate too in meeting Bert Wise, ex Royal Navy P.O. Telegraphist who had been on Submarines, and who took over the technical aspect including the outside lines. Bill Campbell, ex Royal Army Service Corps driver/mechanic was very quickly trained on installations and line work, assisted by John Milburn, a school leaver. John had a very broad Cumbrian accent and initially I found communication difficult, “As gan yam nar marra” meant “I am going home now chum”. I felt I ought to be replying in French or something other than English.
Bill Campbell’s first job was to take the train to London and bring back a vehicle. It was a new Hudson NAAFI wagon completely fitted out by Met. Relays and full of cable, bracket insulators etc. My first act was to buy a set of maps covering the area to a scale of 1:10,000, and display it on the wall. The idea was that if we could establish exactly where we were we stood a better chance of knowing where we were going. A basic plan for the overhead lines was derived and we worked as a team, stripping out old wiring, checking and replacing where necessary, and keeping a record of installations connected. When an installation was serviced and documentation complete we fitted a capacitor in the loudspeaker for technical reasons and a new programme selector switch. The capacitors were to prove very useful later. The service we had to offer at that time was poor, and although it was gradually improving, we were spending far too much time on fault-finding, diverting us from the main program. Within a month it was very clear that our top priority was to rewire and re-equip. I managed to convince the London Office of this and they sent me a team of 3 wiremen from London, led by Dennis Horton who was inherited as a foreman at Mansfield, complete with two Dodge trucks and tons of installation materials. For four months this team concentrated on rewiring for four programmes, gradually reducing and finally almost eliminating the line faults.
The receivers and amplifiers were at Harras Moor in a cottage, but this was at the end of a two mile line, too far from our main load. We ran a 6-pair cable the whole distance and used these as 600 ohm lines, to feed five 1 KW amplifiers at Lowther Street. A bank of 6 AR88 receivers was installed at Harras Moor and two “straight sets” on loop antennas for the BBC Home and Light programmes. In town we had 210v. DC mains and had to fit rotary
[page break]
invertors. We also installed a 9KVA petrol/paraffin engine-driven alternator for use during power cuts, which were all too frequent. I could never understand how the grid system could sustain power through seven winters of wartime industrial production and as soon as the war was over we had to live with power cuts. Harras Moor was providing us with four good radio channels, Home, Light and Third BBC, Radio Eirein, Luxembourg, Paris, New York and others from around the world. We were getting organised and I was able to concentrate on sales, keeping our own gang of three busy on new installations. Within two years we had 2,200 installations, including the two Music Halls, cinemas, and all the factories. In addition we were doing more than 90% of all the Public Address work in Cumberland, some of which were quite memorable. At Grasmere Sports the events included a Fell Race and the first year we gave a running commentary over our P.A. system. The runners were out of sight near the top of the fell, so for the following year we applied to the Post Office for permission to use an H/F radio link to cover the gap. This was refused, “you will have to apply for a telephone”! The following year Bert Wise and John Milburn climbed the fell with an Aldis Lamp and battery, and established themselves where they could see the runners at the top and the ‘ops room’ on the showground. I too had an Aldis lamp and Bert flashed me the numbers of the runners as they reached the top of the fell. This delighted the spectators but completely upset the bookies who alone had the complete information in previous years.
The Post Office were also upset, claiming they had a monopoly on signalling, but declining to put it to test in court. I suggested that to try and licence boy scouts to signal in morse code with torches was ludicrous. I enjoyed the atmosphere of these events and went to quite some lengths to obtain the appropriate marshal music. At a Conservative Party fete one particular rather rousing piece was played several times and I was asked by a retired General why the Hell I kept playing the Red Army March Past.!!
A month after taking over, Hilda and I went for a walk - with the pram - to Hensingham, about three miles inland, and I was surprised to see Relay wires between chimneys and lots of downleads. I had not expected to find another system so close and I checked at some of the houses, asking who provided the system! I was told it was owned by a builder called Leslie but it hadn’t worked for several years. Leslie was the fellow from whom the company had bought West Cumberland Relays, and on checking with him I found it was part of the ‘system’ we had taken over. Further search showed a line of poles stretching for about two miles across the fields which had originally linked the village to the lines in Whitehaven. It also showed that a whole area of Hensingham had no electricity, ideal for relay. There was already a big housing estate and this was being extended, and I decided there was adequate potential in the village, but to replace the trunk route to it would be too expensive. We compromised by obtaining four modified 50 watt Vortexion Amplifiers and four receivers from London. Fred Wright brought them by road in his small van, the logo on the side of which was “Radio Trouble-shooting Service”. I did my very best to put up a case for keeping the van, to no avail. The next day we installed the equipment in an air-raid shelter at Hensingham, as a temporary measure, and immediately started connecting subscribers. Within a few weeks the wiring reached the side of the village where the lines from Whitehaven went across the fields, and we began to replace one pair all the way to link with Whitehaven. With this in operation on the third channel we were able to switch
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off one of the Hensingham amplifiers. Later all four programmes were fed from Whitehaven and the station in the air-raid shelter dismantled. The amplifiers were put to use at Whitehaven Hospital and the Workhouse. Both places were wired for 4 programme relay, but at the flick of a switch microphones could be switched in for announcements, and in the case of the latter, to broadcast concerts from the stage.
It was at Hensingham that I found a row of about 30 terraced houses, all without electricity and all wired with three twin cables of different sizes. This rather intrigued me and I enquired further. Most of the houses had battery driven wireless sets which used a 75 volt dry battery for H.T., a 2 volt accumulator for L.T. and a 9 volt grid bias battery, and in one case I found one of these sets without batteries but connected to the 3 pair cable. The old lady owner said it had not worked for several years. I quickly found the man who recharged the accumulators and he confirmed that the cables I had seen were once used for providing power supplies to radios. I think the system must have been quite unique. Shortly afterwards, the houses were connected to the relay system. My only regret is that I didn’t buy up those radios and store them for 50 years. As more and more installations were connected on the Woodhouse estate, the load on the five mile line gradually became too heavy with a corresponding reduction in line voltage and therefore volume. To overcome this we rented an air-raid shelter from the British Legion on the estate and fitted 4 amplifiers to take the load. These were fed from the incoming line itself, but for emergency use we also fitted receivers. Later the receivers came in useful for about three months during reconstruction of an area over which our main line had been fitted. One of the radio dealers found that we were using local receivers and that they were subject to radio interference from vacuum cleaners, so he had a sales drive in the immediate area of our receiving station with rental vacuum cleaners at 1/- per week. Reception gradually deteriorated but after three months of emergency operation our main line was again complete and the receivers switched off. Reception then was near perfect on our system and dreadful for the rest when the vacuum cleaners were being used. He had put a lot of time and money into trying to wreck our system, and had a double-fronted shop in Lowther Street, but I was sorry to see his shop with a bicycle in one window and a Bible in the other when I left Whitehaven..
On a new housing estate where 5 new houses were commissioned each week, we took a gamble and wired them all. When the first tenants moved in the loudspeaker was playing and the tenant’s radio problems were resolved. After 3 or 4 weeks I would go along and generally sign them up. Some of them of course compared it to their own ‘wireless’ if any, which could not possibly reach our standard of reproduction and reception. There are very few places in and around Whitehaven where we had not fitted microphones and radio, and after reaching near saturation in two years there was little scope for further development.
Whitehaven had been a very satisfying experience, but was marred by the Williams Pit disaster where 160 miners were trapped underground and lost their lives. John Milburn’s father was among them. It was traditional for the eldest son to take over where the Dad left off, and we were very sorry indeed to lose John. Hilda had run the office and “showroom” assisted later by Connie Sim from St. Bees. Bill Campbell was still our mainstay on the lines.
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I handed over to Bert Wise, still wearing his Navy P.O.’s hat, and moved to Wandsworth as Development Manager for Metropolitan Relays. A flat was available for us above the shop at 111 Garratt Lane, but on arrival we found it occupied by squatters. For several weeks we lived with Hilda’s parents until the squatters moved to the second floor and we took over the first floor. They were a decent couple in their forties, and had been desperate for accommodation. Our shop had been empty so they moved in, knowing that when an eviction order was issued by the court, they would be allocated a council house or flat. It was a short-cut to the top of the housing list, and the firm had to go through the motions of demanding court action. The ground floor was established as a showroom, even with T.V. in the window, an impressive amplifier room and an office with the same old sign on the door, Lager Commandant!
The original plan was to develop the area working outwards from Garrett Lane and to use the linesman from H.Q. at Lavender Hill, but there was line work to be done from the very outset and it was this part of the job which would be the limiting factor in our rate of progress. I insisted that we employed our own gang of wiremen. Bill Cutler was my wayleave expert, and having planned the main basic routes of our main lines, it was Bill’s job to find out who the landlords were and to obtain their formal permission to fit our wires on or over their property, generally between chimneys. The easiest way was first to sell the relay service to the tenants and their order was used as the reason for our request to fit the wires. We started to run four main lines, no.1 along Garrett Lane to link up with the Lavender Hill system at West Hill. No 2 made a beeline west along Garrett Lane to a Council-owned housing estate which at the time had no electricity. No 3 went due south to Southfields and along Merton Road, over the Redifon buildings and on to Putney, and No. 4 went north towards Wandsworth Common. Everyone on the staff except me, but including Bill Cutler and the linesmen was given five shillings commission for each new customer they signed up. The average wage at that time was £7 per week (in London) and there were few days when the gang did not hand in the paper-work and deposits for customers they had signed up and probably already installed in addition to the day’s work allocated to them. Quite often we would have thousands of leaflets distributed to houses in a particular area which was proving difficult but which they needed to cross.
At about this time, my father retired and went to East Africa, settling at Kirksbridge Farm, Kiminini, 10 miles west of Kitale on the Kakemega Road, and about 260 miles from Nairobi.. He sold his controlling interest in Metropolitan Relays to Seletar Industrial Holdings, Ltd. and their representative, Colonel Slaughter, took over as Chairman. Mr. Moulton became Director & General Manager and I was Development Manager with sufficient shares to qualify for a seat on the board. At the time T.V. was still in its infancy, though beginning to catch on, but the main background entertainment would be the wireless for some time to come. Transistors were still in the experimental stage and Radio Relay provided an alternative to cumbersome and relatively expensive valve radios, with near perfect and trouble-free reception. As Development Manager I made sure I was not bogged down with routine day to day running, and at the outset established a reliable Manager at Garrett Lane, Jack Thompson, whose knowledge of the business was gleaned entirely from Bill Cutler and myself with on-the-job training. Bill had been with Radio Relay since about
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1930, except for during the war when he was a technician in the R.A.F. on Link Trainers.
I was asked to have a look at Yeovil in Somerset and see whether it appeared suitable to establish a relay system, and if I felt it so justified, to spend some time there making a detailed study. I spent a week studying the layout of the town, types of housing, probabilities of future development, the people and their attitudes and in discussion with the Borough Surveyor and Town Clerk’s office staff. I realised that Colonel Slaughter had been a senior army officer and also a senior civil servant for a long time, and that my future relationship with him depended to a large extent on the impression he gained from my first formal report. I recommended that it was a border-line proposition and included a financial budget for 5 years. It would be three years before the system was breaking even and this was too long. The Capital required was too high unless the system was subsidised by another well-established branch. I felt we could find better places to apply our efforts. The Colonel decided to have a look for himself and I went with him to Somerset a week later. Alone, he met the Council officials concerned and one of them agreed to support our application if a relative of his was given a seat on the board of the new company!. I had known of that before the meeting but thought it better not to be involved, nor to include thoughts of that nature in my report. The Yeovil proposal was dropped and I turned my attention to Maryport.
Whilst Bert Wise was on holiday Bill Cutler and I went to Whitehaven for two weeks to relieve him and also to investigate Maryport.
I had known Maryport for some years and I already knew that it would be a goer from the outset. With lots of Council houses (no wayleave problems on them), a working type population, even with an element of communism. It had known major unemployment and soup kitchens and was still a little Bolshie.
We had many friends in the area and a good popular working system in Whitehaven as an example. In that two weeks I produced the same type of report as for Yeovil, but recommended we should go ahead immediately. We saw the Council Officials and agreed a draft agreement with them, found suitable accommodation for a shop in town and a receiving station just out of town to which we could run our own lines. Two weeks later I returned with the Colonel and together we met the Council Committee and completed formalities. From then on it was all systems go. Bill Cutler asked if he could get it organised and he did a very thorough job, using the labour and resources from Whitehaven. He stayed on as Manager and a few years later took-over Whitehaven also when Bert Wise ran-off with his secretary, Connie Sim.
Meanwhile Garratt Lane was running smoothly, and number 1 line had reached East Hill. In a junction box on the wall of a block of flats we had two four-pair cables, one from Lavender Hill, and the other from Garratt Lane, and on an experimental basis we linked the two together, isolating the line at Garratt Lane. We were thus able to monitor the Lavender Hill system in our Control Room, providing their service to our installations on the way. The Garratt Lane amplifiers were fed by Post Office line from Lavender Hill, and each amplifier could provide 1 kilowatt of audio power, sufficient for 3000 loudspeakers. Most of the loudspeakers were switched to no. 2 channel, the Light Programme, still referred to as the Forces programme by the majority. Channels 3 and 4 were very lightly loaded and we were able to switch off the Garratt Lane amplifiers on these channels for most of the time. At that time my family
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home was the flat above the showroom at Garratt Lane, and was guarded by Rex, a huge Great Dane/Alsation [sic] hybrid. Only Hilda and the children could handle it, presumably because they fed it regularly, but everyone else - including me - had to be very cautious.
Eventually it took a bite out of the Manager’s wife and was returned to Battersea Dogs’ Home.
I was spending more time at Garratt Lane where progress was losing momentum, and extending our no. 3 line over West Hill to East Putney was proving difficult. Near Putney Bridge, still a mile from our lines was a highly suitable area of small houses and it was going to take a year to reach them at our current speed. Without much fuss we established a station in the basement of a shop in the middle of this area, using 4 receivers built by Fred Wright’s dept. and 4 small 50 watt Vortexion amplifiers. This station was identical to the one fitted at Hensingham. We then had a sales drive in that part of Putney with the emphasis towards West Hill, and in 4 months were able to link the two systems.
I was interested to recall that for monitoring our four programmes we used a modified aircraft type automatic bomb release mechanism. This was a uniselector type of relay unit which clunked round and changed programme every 30 seconds instead of releasing bombs.
All my staff were ex-Servicemen and there was a dynamic no-nonsence [sic] approach. In contrast to this, our General Manager Allan Moulton based at Lavender Hill, had a stock answer to any serious proposal for action put to him, of “Wait a little while and see what happens”. My attitude was that we know what we want to happen and it wont unless we make it. He didn’t like my Lager Commandant notice on the door either but there it stayed. In 1948 the war was not forgotten by most of us and many satisfactory business deals were made in that spirit of comradeship and trust.
In Feb. 1949 I found that someone called Fry had studied Belfast on our firm’s behalf and had strongly recommended starting a relay service there. The report came to me quite by accident and at the same time I found he was surveying Bath, introducing himself as Development Manager in Relay Association circles. I tackled Colonel Slaughter about it and he said it was news to him, but he took it up with Moulton to whom Fry was reporting. I found that Moulton resented the fact that I was responsible direct to the Chairman, and also that my contract detailed my renumeration including commission which was the £1500 per year, 4 times the average wage. To clear the air we had a formal meeting and I put forward my prediction for future development. I forecast that within 2 or 3 years a general rundown of the system would be inevitable with the increase of television; further that it would be prudent to reduce expenditure on “wired wireless” and to develop the rental side of both radio and T.V., but to reconsider with Fred Wright - who was not at the meeting - the policy of manufacturing T.V. sets. My prediction became factual and was influenced also by transistor radios of which we had no knowledge at that time. There was 33% Purchase Tax on most things including T.V. sets. This was payable at the point of sale and not on rentals. As our sets were never sold but remained the property of Met. Radio & T.V. Rentals Ltd. no Purchase Tax was payable. This loophole was soon to be closed, as forecast, and tax was payable on the rental itself. It became cheaper to buy sets from the big manufactures than to actually make them.
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The Colonel remarked that as Development Manager I was really saying we should stop developing, and I agreed. This set the scene for further discussion well outside the intended scope of the meeting. The Chairman asked Moulton for his views on likely technological advances, but Moulton had none and said we can only try and stay afloat, seeking support from Fry. The Colonel shot down Moulton completely and asked Fry to detail his relevant qualifications. After a silence Moulton was told to study the content of my prediction and not to go off at a tangent on development nor without reference to him. Fry was sent packing and the meeting was closed. I learned quite a lot from Colonel Slaughter, he had spent a long time in the Royal Engineers and one of his attributes was building a flat-bottomed boat on the Nile, one of the biggest in service. His personality was such that when he looked up and down disapprovingly at an obvious ex-Serviceman leaning over a bar, the man immediately took his hand out of his pocket and squared himself up. I actually saw this happen in Maryport, he had that effect on people. (That was in 1948, it might not be the same over 40 years later).
No more was heard of Fry, and I never did join the Board, I was too busy getting on with the job, but it was time for reflection. I realised that when my father was Chairman he had the engineering and technical aspects at his fingertips and he took care of them. He was succeeded by the Colonel who was a business-man but who had no backing on the engineering side. My brief was the Development of the Radio Relay Systems, I regarded technological changes as a matter for the General Manager, Moulton, but I was not responsible to him.
I met the Colonel again privately and I said it seemed that I was Development Manager in a firm which was not going to develop any further. Although there was plenty of routine work to be done I felt the Electrical Trades Union would soon start making things very difficult as it was doing in the Post Office. In view of the probable technological changes, I felt that Colonel Slaughter would rather sell-out than try to steer a ship without a rudder. I was being rather outspoken but straightforward and the Colonel approved of this. I told him I would like to call it a day and try my luck in Africa, Kenya was said to be a land of opportunity. If that failed there was always a job in Bulawayo 2500 miles further south of the Cement Works with Mr. Rose.
The Colonel agreed I could leave when convenient but if I wanted to return within 6 months, to drop him a line. It was four years since the war in Europe had ended. Britain was changing and so was the attitude of many people some of who were very disillusioned. Hilda and I agreed it was time to make a move.
And so in July 1949 I went to Africa for the third time, but with Hilda and the two children, not knowing what sort of a career I was seeking, but nevertheless full of confidence, and still with my Lager Commandant board.
The following year, Colonel Slaughter retired and Seletar’s controlling interest in Metropolitan Relays was sold to British Relay Wireless which later became Vision-Hire. Within a further 12 years the wired-wireless or Relay industry in the U.K. closed, being overtaken by technology.
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[underlined] KENYA [/underlined]
The flight to Nairobi was a very pleasant trip by Argonaut, calling at Rome, Benina, - which we had known as Bengazi [sic] -, Cairo, Khartoum and Entebbe. On the last leg of the flight we flew very low at times, quite unofficially to give us our first views of big game from the air. The flight was very enjoyable, in very easy stages, and in retrospect the Argonaut was about the most comfortable aircraft we were to fly in, in our many subsequent flights to Africa. It was I think the first and only time we travelled in first class.
We were met in Nairobi by Duncan Fletcher, a friend of my fathers, and spent the night at Torr’s Hotel, in Delamere Avenue, the leading hotel at that time. The Stanley Hotel across the road was being refurbished to become the New Stanley, and within a few years Torr’s was closed and became the Ottaman [sic] Bank. I recall the strawberry and cream cake for tea at Torr’s for which it had been famous for many years. The following day we journeyed the 260 miles by bus to Kitale. This was a road we would take many times in the years to come. The first half was tarmac, 100 miles of which from the top of the Nairobi escarpment, through Naivasha to Nakuru, having been built by Italian prisoners of war. From the top of the escarpment there was a wonderful view of the Rift Valley and Mount Longenot [sic], an extinct volcano, and to the west over the plains towards Mau Forest and Kisumu. The bus took us down the escarpment, dropping about 2000 feet to the floor of the Rift Valley, passed the little Italian church built by P.O.W.’s, and northwards past Lake Elementita and Nakuru, then the rough murram road to Kitale. The journey took about 10 hours, but was far from tedius [sic], there was so much to be seen.
Kitale seemed like a typical american western type of small town, the roads were not made up and the sidewalks were made of wood. Many of the buildings were made of timber clad with mabati - corrugated iron - and most europeans wore khaki drill. We were met at the bus station by my father and completed the remaining 9 miles of our journey to our new home, Kirksbridge Farm, Kiminini where a guest house had been built for us, about 100 yards from the main house. Colin and Wendy, aged 6 and 4 were introduced to the Ayah, the african nurse, called Nadudu, who spoke only Swahili and her tribal language, Kitoshi, but within a matter of days was communicating without difficulty with the children. Nadudu had her own rondavel, a thatched roundhouse on the lawn at the side of the guest house, and took care of all the children’s needs.
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[underlined] Hoteli King George [/underlined]
Life on the farm had provided a welcome anticlimax to just about everything that had gone before, but it could hardly be a long-term solution for a young couple with a growing family. We did not appreciate at the time the serious effects of the political unrest and changes which were beginning to take place. We thought that common sense would prevail and most of us felt we had a good working relationship with the Africans; only a misguided few claimed to really understand them! Neither Hilda nor I felt we were achieving a great deal on the farm and we agreed it was time to look further afield.
In April 1950, after almost a year in Kitale, I responded to an advert in our national newspaper, the East African Standard, for Prison Officers. Salary £550 per year, uniform and furnished accomodation [sic] provided, generous leave etc. Military experience advantageous, with the rank of Asst. Supt. of Prisons. One pip! At least the job would get us to Nairobi where most of the action was, and we would have an opportunity to look around, but it was also to give me an insight into a very different and often sordid aspect of life. My application was successful. Our family, Hilda and myself, Colin and Wendy, with Paddy and Jeep our two Alsations all crowded into the Austin A70 and once again made the now familiar safari to Nairobi. 150 miles of murram road, through the Transnzoia, and the plains around Eldoret settled almost entirely by South Africans from the Union, winding around ravines to Mau Summit, up and over the 11,500 ft. mountains at Timbarua to Nakuru then 100 miles of luxurious tarmac through Naivasha with its flamingoes [sic] , passed Elementita an extinct volcano, up the escarpment to Nairobi. The tarmac road was built by Italian prisoners of war in W.W.2, the best stretch of road in East Africa. We also took with us Edward Ekeke, an African driver who had been with my father in Abbysinia [sic] during the war. Although a Kikuyu he was a trusted servant, and if left alone by the politicians and other agitators would have stayed loyal, but tribal and other pressures on chaps like Ekeke were great, and in retrospect it was foolish of us to trust them. Ekeke returned to Kitale with the Austin for more personal effects and re-joined us after a few days. I think he must have finally returned to the farm by 'taxi', as the african buses were called.
As it claimed in the advert., accomodation [sic] was provided. It could have been described as a three-bedroomed chalet, the walls and roof being of mabati (corrugated iron), and was built on stilts about a foot off the ground. We learned that is [sic] was originally built at the other side of the prison and had been carried to its current location by 200 prisoners. As far as I remember, we moved straight into the 'house', and roughed it until Hilda made it comfortable. There was a bathroom, but the loo was a 'thunderbox' at the end of the back garden with a bucket which a gang of prisoners dealt with about 5 am. every day. The kitchen was a Colonial type near the back door, with a wood stove, and an adequate supply of kuni (firewood) provided by more prisoners.
The prison was totally enclosed within a high stone wall, designed to hold 700 prisoners, but with a prison population of about 1900 Africans, 180 Asians, 20 Somalis and 12 Europeans. Quite separate was a small compound for the Wamawaki, (women), with about 20 African and 1 Asian inmate (in for murder but only men were eligible for hanging, so she was serving life). The whole 2000 or so were in the care of about 9 European officers and 200 African Askari. The
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Officer i/c was 'Major' Martin M.C., W.W.1 Veteran,as [sic] Snr. Supt., his number 2 was Henry Thacker with 3 pips as a Supt. Henry spoke fluent Kikuyu in addition to Swahili, and in fact had a Kikuyu 'wife'. He had been in the Prisons service for 36 years at that time and sported one medal ribbon, on his right breast. Legend had it that it was awarded by the Royal Humane Society after he saved a cat from drowning, but Henry was on a totally different wavelength to other Europeans. Sid Swan with 2 pips was i/c the stores and accounts, having spent the war in the Kings African Rifles, and having been demobbed as a Major. Other junior officers like myself included Bunty Lewis, rather effiminate [sic] but nevertheless an ex Royal Artillery officer who had a Kenya-born wife; Paddy McKinney, a large hairy ex Irish Guards Sergeant; Jimmie Vant, ex Kings African Rifles, the son of a Keswick lawyer turned Kenya farmer. Jimmie and his wife Dulcie regarded themselves as Kenya settlers and claimed to spend most of their time at the ranch on the Kinankop, hence their landrover vehicle. Another officer, Whitehouse who joined about the same time as me seemed to spend most of his time off sick and did not stay with us very long. There were three other officers whose names elude me but they were all ex-service, and all lived just outside the wall of the main prison.
The Duty Officers i/c worked a shift system, 0600 to 1800, assisted by a "day-duties" officer during more or less office hours. The Duty Officer was responsible for the day to day activity in the main prison. We were each armed with an enormous ancient revolver of 0.45 calibre and six rounds of ammo., issued by Mr. Thacker. I objected to the rounds of ammo., pointing out they were dum-dums, the bullets having been filed down to within 1/8" of the cartridge cases., and they contravened the Geneva convention. I remember Henry saying "there is nothing in the Prisons Ordinance about the Geneva Convention, and that's all that matters"! We were ordered in writing to wear the revolver in its holster at all times when on duty, and I thought of my four Brownings of long ago to deal with one enemy, compared to a ridiculous revolver in a compound with nearly 2000 potential enemies. It was in fact general practice, strictly unofficial, to carry the revolver but to leave the ammunition in the safe, and the prisoners knew this. I did carry a loaded Czech. .25 automatic in my pocket of which the prisoners were not aware. Some months after I joined, the Snr. Supt. inspected Paddy's revolver and put him on a charge for not carrying ammunition, "contrary to station standing order number something or other". Paddy was eventually charged before the Commissioner of Prisons and pleaded not guilty, asking to see the written order. This was produced and the charge dismissed. The order refered [sic] to the revolver only, and not ammunition. All very childish, but Paddy of the Irish Guards was not one to be messed about. He produced his dum-dum bullets to the Commissioner who was astonished, and all the dumdums were withdrawn. Paddy also pointed out how ludicrous it was for a lone officer to carry firearms in a crowd of hundreds of prisoners, but the order remained. He was a likeable fellow and when the C.O. quoted the book of rules, Paddy made a detailed study of it. In addition to the Prisons Ordnance, we also had Station Standing Orders which gave Paddy ample scope for playing the barrack-room lawyer. He was seen one night at a party in the Military Police Snr. N.C.O.'s mess, and was put on [deleted] a [/deleted] two charges by Martin. Before the Commissioner he was charged with sleeping off the station and drinking whilst on duty. Again Paddy asked for the rule-book and pleaded not guilty. The book stated that an officer would not sleep off the station whilst
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on duty. Paddy agreed he had been at the dance all night and did not in fact sleep anywhere! case [sic] dismissed. Station standing orders also stated that an officer would not partake of alcoholic drink whilst on duty, but a further order stated that an "officer was deemed to be on duty at all times". It therefore followed that all Prisons Officers were required to be completely teetotal, and that was an unlawful order. Martin had met his match and was told to edit Station Standing Orders.
The day started at 0630 by unlocking the European cells and counting the inmates, whilst the Askari dealt with all the other prisoners. There was no point in an escape attempt by Europeans, they would not have got very far before being picked up, but for other races it was a different matter. They were guarded very closely. The four main racial groups were quartered separately for sleeping and eating, their customs and diet and indeed their whole culture differing considerably. Only the Europeans slept on beds, the others were not interested and prefered [sic] the floor, some with very thin mattresses. The Europeans wore shoes, the Somalis heavy boots, Asians wore flipflops and the Africans stuck to their bare feet which were generally tougher than any footwear. European food was probably similar to that in U.K. prisons, and with each race having its own traditional food, this was not a case of discrimination, each prefered [sic] its own. Each group also provided its own cooks. Some of the Asians in fact opted out of Prison food and had it sent in, but it was very thoroughly checked. Uniforms differed too, some compromise between standard prison garb and ordinary native dress. Europeans wore K.D. slacks and shirts with arrows printed on them. Africans wore white shirt and white shorts held up by string.
Two or three hours were spent in the early morning preparing prisoners for court, generally about 50 of them. Some were on remand, and others were convicted prisoners who were required to give evidence in cases where they were involved as witnesses. In the late afternoon all were returned to the prison possibly with changed status. The paper-work had to be watched very carefully, confusion could arise where one prisoner might have a conviction warrant on one case, a remand warrant on another and possibly a production order to appear as a witness in an entirely different case. It was not unknown for a prisoner to be involved in two cases under different names. Language sometimes presented a problem. The courts conducted the business in English and Kiswahili, but there were many tribal languages and quite often interpreters had to be employed. One such case was when 60 prisoners of the Suk tribe were charged with murder having massacred the District Commissioner and his staff of 12. The only interpreter who could cope with the Suk language translated into Kitoshi, and a second one translated from Kitoshi into Swahili. All 60 were hanged at the prison in due course. They seemed very young to me and I doubt if they really knew what it was all about. They were the ones rounded up by the Police after spears had been thrown at the D.C.'s party from a crowd of 2000 whilst he was reading the Riot Act -literally-.
Relationships between officers at the prison were generally very good, with the exception of Martin who thought he was playing soldiers and Thacker for whom we felt rather sorry. 36 years as a prisons officer must have warped his mind somewhat. After about two months I decided to be like the other officers and wear my medal ribbons, and that was when I first fell foul of Major Martin. He asked me what the first medal was and I told him. He said he
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had not authorised me to wear it and I laughed and said I didn't need his authority, the King's was good enough. Shortly after this I was on duty when 45 new African prisoners were admitted, but there were 50 warrants. Some were convicted on Capital Charges, (murder, manslaughter, rape etc). My Chief Warder had signed for 50 bodies and 50 warrants, but there were only 45 bodies. It was 5 pm and my obvious priority was to determine which 5 prisoners were missing. It took until 6.30 to sort it out, no-one was missing, the Court was at fault in issuing two warrants each to five prisoners, instead of one warrant and one production order each. Only then did I get around to locking up the European prisoners for the night, 30 minutes late, and I entered this in the log. The next day an Asian prisoner complained to an Asian Official Prison Visitor that the Europeans were not locked up until 6.30 whereas the Asian prisoners were locked up on time. This was racial discrimination and the official visitor reported the matter direct to the Commissioner. I was charged by Martin for failing to carry out a particular standing order in that I failed to lock up the Europeans at 6 pm. 'How do you plead?' saith [sic] the Commiss. 'I don't', I replied, 'I request the case be taken by the Member for Law & Order'. He was the member of Legislative Council equivalent to the U.K. Attorney General, and this was a genuine option available to an officer charged before the Commissioner, same sort of procedure as an Airman on a 252 asking for a Court Martial rather than take his C.O.'s verdict. The Commissioner suspended the charge for the time being and asked Martin why the charge was brought. I was then asked why I had failed and I said that I was the Officer responsible and in unusual circumstances I concentrated my action in what I considered the most important aspect, which was resolving the problem of the 5 apparently missing prisoners. I consider I acted correctly, regardless of Station Standing Orders. Martin said he had not known that and I suggested that he should read the duty log before signing it as seen, next time. I also suggested that an amendment be made to the standing orders to the effect that nothing contained therein would prohibit an officer from using his initiative when he felt it necessary. Anyhow, I went on, it is an unlawful order in any case, and that will be my alternative defence with the Member for Law & Order. The commissioner was intrigued and read out the order "You will lock-up the European prisoners at 6 pm.", looking to me for comment. I said it was an impossible order, locking-up people involves work which takes time, 6pm is a moment of time in which by definition no work can be done. I said the whole set-up is childish and the Commissioner asked Martin to withdraw the charge. It seemed I had joined Paddy in his war of attrition against Martin.
Our two alsations, Paddy and Jeep had settled-in very nicely, with only their hereditary training. Their self-appointed task of guarding Hilda and the children was unending. When the family was inside the house, one guard would remain with them whilst the other maintained watch on the verandah [sic] and patrolled outside in the garden. When the children were in the garden whilst prisoners were working in the area, either Paddy or Jeep would deploy themselves between the two groups. Only by instinct our dogs knew the prisoners were not to be trusted and were watched very carefully, but the African askari were regarded as allies. The prison was very close to the boundary of Nairobi National Park, and grew cabbages two feet in diameter in what must have been some of the most fertile land in Kenya, receiving all the effluent from the 2000 odd inmates. Late one afternoon an african prisoner in a work gang fancied his
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chances and made a run for it, sprinting along the road passed [sic] the house hotly pursued by about six askari. The askari were at a disadvantage wearing heavy boots and jerseys, but they were joined by Paddy and Jeep who caught up with the prisoner and arrested him in the Game Park. When the askari caught up with them they found the prisoner literally with his pants down, leaning exhausted against a post supporting a notice "Stay in Your Car, Beware of Lion".
It was essential but sometimes difficult not to become involved emotionally with the prisoners, almost all of whom had in their eyes suffered a grave injustice by winding-up in jail. One afternoon whilst I was on duty the Chief Immigration Officer, a Mr. Pierce, came to the prison and required me to serve a Deportation Order on a European Prisoner, Major Melbourn. I read the document first and found that Melbourn had been declared an 'undesireable [sic] immigrant' and was therefore to be deported within 5 days. Melbourn had in fact served about 12 months of a three year sentance [sic] for bigamy and would be required to complete the term in the U.K. He was 'undesireable [sic] ' because he had changed his job without permission. I remarked that this was a very lame excuse for such drastic action. After an exchange of views I said I had not sought his permission when I joined the Prisons Service and he advised me to do so without delay! A few days later I was detailed to escort the prisoner to Mombasa, and hand him over to the officer i/c of the prison at Fort Jesus. Meanwhile I had studied all the Melbourn files and they showed a good example of how a fellow could slip up over small technicalities which produced major consequences. Melbourn was a British Army officer serving overseas for almost the entire war. During the Blitz, his wife was in a Convalascent [sic] home in Liverpool which received a direct hit and she disappeared without trace like many others. He had been drawing a marriage allowance in the normal way and eventually reported to his C.O. that it should be discontinued because he believed his wife had been killed in an air-raid. He was advised that until he had proof of this the allowance would continue. He should have applied to the courts for it to be deemed that his wife had been killed but the environment of the Burmese jungle and other wartime pressures were not conducive to that sort of logic and he let the matter rest. After the war he made enquiries in Liverpool without result, and was eventually released from the Army having served for 30 years. Several years later he became engaged to the daughter of the French Consol [sic] in Nairobi, and when they were married he declared that he was a bachelor. They were Catholics and had he referred to himself as a widower, there could have been difficulties and the authorities would have required proof in any case, which he could not provide. Soon after the wedding someone who had been a clerk in the Pay Corps spotted the reference to 'Bachelor' and thought it rather odd that Melbourn had claimed a marriage allowance during the war. He reported this and the subsequent enquiry led to Melbourn being charged with bigamy and convicted. Whilst it was essential that justice must be seen to apply equally to all races, Europeans were the Bwana Mkubwas and were supposed to set an example. White men in jail were an embarassment [sic] to Government and wherever possible they were returned to the U.K. Melbourn had slipped-up on a second trechnicality. [sic] In the U.K. After [sic] demob. he and two ex-Army colleagues, all of whom had served in East Africa in 1945, decided to establish a business in Kenya, and the three applied for Entry permits, Employment passes, Dependants [sic] passes in two cases, and Residence permits. Complete with ambitious plans for the future and proper documentation
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the trio arrived in Nairobi and set about organising their new enterprise, one of the first acts being an application to register the name of their company. Whilst this was 'going through channels' problems came to light which could not have been foreseen and their plans had to be abandoned. Melbourn remained in Nairobi and obtained employment, and his two colleagues returned to U.K., disillusioned by the red tape. Whilst looking for a reason to declare Melbourn an undesireable [sic] immigrant the application for permission to work with a firm which did not exist came to light and provided the necessary ammunition.
On the night train to Mombasa Melbourn was very chatty, we were both in civvies, he was allowed to use his own money and I felt the best policy would be to let him have a few drinks and to sleep it off. He undertook to behave and understood that at the first sign of being unco-operative he would be handcuffed to his bunk. He told me his story which was the same as gleaned from the files, and added that he had made arrangements to escape at Suez and join the sister of one of the Somali inmates. I handed him over at Fort Jesus, wished him luck and had a look around Mombasa before returning to Nairobi on the night train. About two months later we learned that he had indeed jumped ship at Suez and was working as a Newsreader at Oomdemaan on Egyptian International Radio Broadcasts. I bought some brass plates from him in Nairobi which today are displayed at Wendy's home in Cherryhinton [sic] , and which remind me of the injustice metered out to one who served for 30 years in the British Army.
Another European prisoner, on remand, had been arrested for vagrancy. He was a British merchant seaman who felt like a change, had legally entered Kenya with proper documentation and had taken a job driving a native bus. The authorities deemed this was not a suitable job for a white man, declared him undesireable [sic] and deported him, by ship. He would have been quite happy to have joined a ship at Mombasa as crew-member or paid his own passage. He most certainly did not meet the definition of vagrancy, he had more than adequate means of support. I recall his bitterness when he said it was fair enough to drive a bloody army lorry for five years but not an african bus.
For nearly six months I relieved Ron Woods as officer i/c the Tailoring section of Prison workshops, whilst he was on home leave. In the workshop 200 prisoners beavered away sewing and stitching, 100 with sewing machines and the other half working by hand. We produced uniforms for all Government departments and also for prisoners and were allowed to undertake private work for anyone willing to provide their own material. One of the European prisoners had been a tailor in civvy street and he was very helpful. There was also a 'mechanical workshop' employing about 100, mostly producing articles in metal for Gov't departments, but also repairing and generally working on motor-cars. I took the opportunity of turning them loose on my father's Packard and they did a very good job. The Tailoring section even produced some seat covers for it without being asked. Shortly after the car was finished, a Salvation Army Major came to me and said that Johnson, a European prisoner who had worked on the car, had seen the light after several months of Bible study and was now determined to go straight. He was serving five years for armed robbery, having held up a taxi in Mombasa. The Major asked for my support for his application to the Parole Board and was in fact going to great lengths to secure the Prisoner's release. I declined my support, and told the Major he had been spoofed, Johnson would never go straight. However, the appeal
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was successful and Johnson suggested to me the night before his release that for a small fee he could arrange to 'steal' the car and drop it over Nairobi escarpment for me. Such were the people we were dealing it, [sic] [inserted] with [/inserted] but what finally became of him I don't know.
After several months we moved to a much nicer house in the prison officers' compound. Hilda was doing photographic retouching and finishing work in the city for Arthur Firmin, and life was without undue pressures. On saturday [sic] evenings we occasionally went to see our friends George and Iris Dent at the Oasis pub. George was an engineer with the Army Kinema Corporation and a very keen 'ham', VQ4DO, ex ZS6DO. At their parents' Pub George showed films which provided entertainment. This was before the days of television in Kenya. It was on the evening of one of our visits we were sitting in the Dent's home, Wendy was stretched out asleep on the couch and Iris's little boy was playing with his toy cap-gun. This reminded me that the pain in my rear was caused by my .25 automatic in my trouser pocket, so I moved the gun to my jacket pocket. Iris saw this move and said it looked a far nicer gun than her .38 and asked to see it. I handed it over, having checked there was no round up the spout and it was on safe. To our absolute astonishment, Iris cocked it, off with the safety catch and fired. The bullet demolished the leg of the couch less than a foot from Wendy's head. The song "Pistol-packing mamma" didn't seem at all funny any more. Colin was with us and had attended Nairobi Primary School for about two months. Wendy was looked after during the day by Nadudu, the Kitoshi ayah we had taken with us from Kitale. The children called her Bundudu.
With the withdrawal of the British Army from Kenya, George and Iris returned to South Africa, George taking up employment with the S.A. Broadcasting Corporation. Today the Oasis pub is thriving, still on the main Mombassa [sic] Road and close to Nairobi airport at Embakasi.
I was concerned only with Nairobi prison, but there were prisons in 8 or so towns, backed up by several camps. Later when Mau Mau really got under way, there were many more much bigger 'internment' camps. Some of them in my day were known as rather tough places. Hard Labour was still the prerogative of the courts; It meant exactly that, and was invariably stone breaking. A gang would be given a task of smashing up a number of very large boulders and feeding the fragments through a screen before putting them onto a lorry. Only when the task was complete would they be marched back to the living area. One of our camps was at Lokitong, about 450 miles north of Nairobi, and it frequently happened that prisoners had to be returned from there to Nairobi to attend court. There was no telephone, the only communication with the camp was was [sic] by a telegram to Kitale prison and thence a letter by bus and camel to the camp. It was generally a three-week process, so six weeks was needed to produce a prisoner from Lokitong to a court in Nairobi. I put up a written suggestion that in the absence of telephones we should establish a number of radio stations. I could undertake to establish the stations myself using ex-army 21 sets, maintain them and also to train the operators. The suggestion was submitted through Mr. Martin but addressed to the Commissioner, and according to the Chief Clerk went straight into Martin's waste paper basket. A few days later I delivered a copy direct to the Commissioner's office with a covering letter with my estimate of costs, about £100 per station plus my time and travelling.
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I promised instant communication with the camps but it was too revolutionary and there was no provision in the budget for it. About four years later the job was done for them by the Police at a cost of £700,000 with recurring annual expenditure of over £100,000. A lot of money in those days. Jimmie Vant became the Prisons Dept. Telecommunications Officer with no knowledge whatsoever of the subject. He didn't really need any, all the work was carried out by the Police which was staffed entirely by technicians on secondment from the U.K. Home Office. Such is the price of progress and sophisticated over-engineering. No doubt in the 1990s they will be able to spend even more millions and do the job via satelite [sic] .
Returning home one afternoon having collected Hilda and two other ladies from the city, and Colin from school, we found the prison surrounded by armoured cars and light tanks with hundreds of Police and Army personnel. Apparently there was a rumour of a pending mass breakout, but it was only a rumour. I regarded it as a show of strength for the benifit [sic] of the unruly.
The job in the Prisons Service was like no other I have held either before or since. It was work which started and finished according to the duty roster and activity was determined and limited by the various orders laid down. For every minor detail there had to be a written authority. The Prisons Service had become established about the turn of the century and the antiquated system did nothing to inspire enthusiasm. On one occasion Paddy Mc.Kinney and I were taking a five minute breather in the office and enjoying a coca-cola, when Martin came in and without preamble ordered us to put leg-irons on Mchegi, then stormed out again. Mchegi was a "casi kubwa", a 6'3" Kikuyu in a condemned cell. The leg-irons were a reprisal for Mchegi's offensive the previous day. Martin, on his round of inspection had moved aside the 6" square observation panel in the door of Mchegi's cell to look inside, and received the full force of the contents of the choo (night soil!) bucket in his face. Mchegi was awaiting hanging and had nothing to lose. He was a very dangerous individual who had already killed and because of his violance [sic] often remained in his cell during excercise [sic] periods. Putting leg-irons on this tough character was a formidable task and Martin knew that. Paddy startled me by suggesting that I should open the door of Mchegi's cell, and he would wait at the open end of the corridor where it entered the prison yard. I replied that I would rather he opened Mchegi's door and I would wait in the yard. However, Mchegi had no personal animosity towards me and Paddy's complete plan appeared rational. I opened the cell door with the greeting "Mjambo Mchegi", and he stepped out of the cell, seeing a clear passage to the prison yard and beyond to the open gate in the outside perimeter wall of the prison, with neither officer nor askari in sight. Mchegi recognised his chance to escape and made a dash for it. It was at the end of the corridor that Paddy stepped out hit him and simultaneously an askari tripped him up. Before Mchegi recovered four askari had rivetted on the leg-irons and dragged him back to his cell. A few minutes later Paddy and I were finishing our cokes in the office when Martin came in and remonstrated, "why haven't you carried out my order?" Paddy said we had done so and Martin exclaimed "impossible". When Martin was told just how it had been done we were both on a charge once more. The Commissioner reminded us that striking a prisoner was a very serious matter but when Paddy said it was the preferred alternative to shooting him, there was no answer, and the matter was dropped. Mchegi gave no more trouble and apologised to Martin for his indiscretion, and
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Paddy saw to it that Mchegi received his full ration of excercise [sic] time in the prison yard. It was about three weeks after the choo bucket incident that Paddy was in the yard and attacked from the rear by a prisoner with a pair of 12" scissors. Fortunately Mchegi was watching and although still in leg-irons tackled the assailant, overcoming him just in time. Paddy was still cut, but there was no doubt that Mchegi had saved his life. He took a great interest in Mchegi and asked why he had been a condemned prisoner for so long, just waiting for the death sentance [sic] to be carried out. Paddy saw to it that the stabbing incident received a great deal of publicity, and eventually Mchegi was released from jail. Some years later I found he was a Snr. Warder at the prison.
About the same time, a new recruit joined us, with the same rank, Asst. Supt. Gr.2, but we found his salary was in fact 2 increments (£120 per annum) higher than ours and we wanted to know the reason why. We were told that he had been in the armed services and was awarded two increments for war service. We, apparently, had been under the average age of entry for the Prisons service at the time of our war service. Our next move was to try and compare our respective efforts during the war, but the new recruit was very reticent about his service career, and somehow didn't seem to speak the language of the soldier. It was several weeks later we found he had been in the German Army and the rest of us felt this really was too much. Regulations on war service increments however did refer to the "armed services" and made no mention of which side a fellow was on. We were not still fighting the [deleted] a [/deleted] war, but we were a uniformed service after all. The Gerry could see he was not wanted and resigned.
After 12 months as a Prison Officer I was very disgruntled with the way of life and went to see the Commissioner and gave him one month's notice. This he accepted and on my return to the prison I was handed a letter terminating my appointment with immediate effect, signed by Martin.
I then set about thinking of another job, there was lots of scope and on the air next morning my father suggested I should go and see Joe Furness who was Director of Civil Aviation. Later that day, in prison uniform, I called to see the Personnel Officer of D.C.A., one Bert Leaman, and found there might be a possibility of joining the Telecommunications section, and arranged an interview for the following day.
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[underlined] CIVIL AVIATION [/underlined]
In April 1951 I joined the E.A. Directorate of Civil Aviation as a Radio Officer on a salary of £610 per year. I had no relevant qualifications for this job but I could cope with the morse code at 25 words per minute and had aquired[sic] a general background of aviation during the war years! The first two weeks were spent at R.A.F. Eastleigh studying the workings of the Telecommunications and Air Traffic Control systems, after which I was posted to Mbeya near the Tanganyika/Northern Rhodesia border at 6500 feet above sea level. The journey down to Mbeya was by road, 900 miles, and in the middle of the rainy season. Much advice was received, “all the hotels are closed”, “the roads are waterlogged and blocked”, “there is no petrol beyond Arusha” and so on. We decided to do the trip in four short stages of between 200 and 300 miles per day, with night stops at Arusha, Dodoma and Iringa.
Our 1949 Ford Prefect, KCC13, with 60,000 miles on the clock was reshod at a cost of £10. Recapped tyres were the vogue at that time, a practice which has since stopped, being said to be dangerous. However, those recaps. did 22,000 miles on some of the worst roads in the world, without problems, before being replaced, a better performance than the original new tyres. With the car loaded with household equipment, and with Colin and Wendy lying on blankets near the roof of the car we headed south down “the Great North Road”. The first 100 miles was tarmac and no problem in the pouring tropical rain. Always to the south of us -dead on track- were towering thunderheads of cumulo [sic] -nimbus, but nearing the end of the tarmac the rain stopped. Indeed for the next three days the rain stopped falling about twelve hours ahead of us, but also remained on our tail. On the second day, deep ruts in the road caused a broken rear spring near Dodoma, but this was repaired overnight at George’s Garage; very well equipped with spare springs was George. Crossing the hundreds of fords, or drifts was exciting and at times quite hilarious, many being over 100 years wide and comprising merely a strip of concrete 10 feet wide on the bed of the river. Most of them were covered by water, hiding the concrete and the only clue to its location was provided by the poles at each side of the drift. More often than not the river bed at the side of the concrete was worn away creating a drop of a foot or so. A piece of thick wire fixed to the front of the car together with a vertical line on the windscreen, could be lined up with the centre of the two distant poles. By ignoring everything else and having implicit faith in the navigational instrument, we always reached the other side without going over the edge. Without this blind faith there would have been a tendency to keep a little to the up-stream side of the drift. To go over the edge on the other side could have been disastrous. In two places on the second day we were really bogged down in mud but we quickly mastered the technique of driving in reverse over the worst parts, thus becoming front-wheel drive. The most interesting village we passed was Kondor Arangi, between Dodoma and Iringa, on the third day. A beautifully painted and spotlessly clean Arab village, probably unchanged for centuries and almost completely independent of the world outside. After over 35 years I can still recall the aroma of freshly-baked bread, and the welcoming atmosphere of the village. On through Iringa and the final leg of 250 miles of the beautiful scenery of Southern Highlands, completely unspoilt by development. After a night at the Iringa Hotel, we had made our usual early-morning start and reached Mbeya by mid-day. Straight to the Railway station in
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Mbeya, a typical East African Railways and Harbours station complete with platforms, but the nearest railway lines and trains were over 400 miles away. A search for Paddy and Jeep, our two alsations, which had been put on the train five days previously in Nairobi, was to no avail. It was to be a further three days before they reached Mbeya, very hungry and very thirsty. After a night in ‘Links’ Salter’s Mbeya Hotel we inspected our new home at the airport. Known as Wilson Airways Rest House, built in 1932 for use by British Airways – before the change of name to Imperial Airways, and B.O.A.C. – It was ‘U’ shaped with 2 kitchens and 10 bedrooms. No electricity of course but a dozen or so paraffin lamps took care of the lighting problem. An african [sic] was provided to carry water from a tap about four hundred yards away to keep our small tank topped-up. The house was very convenient at the side of the runway, actually the grass landing area. It was very pleasant to sit on the verandah[sic] where there was a wonderful view of Mbeya Peak. We had only two neighbours, the Claytons from Burnley who were ‘refugees’ from the groundnut scheme at Kongwa and now in charge of a tipper unit with the Public Works Dept., and Bwana Grigg, an old-timer who had been a prospector and was then a Weights and Measures Inspector.
Mbeya was our home for 2 1/2 years, the aerodrome had been up-graded from a one-man to two-man station open from 0600 to 1800 hrs. every day. My colleague was George Hanson, who originally hailed from Selby in Yorkshire, an ex-wireless operator in Royal Signals during the war who had joined E.A. Posts and Telegraphs as a Radio Officer in 1947. George had spent 3 years in Burma during the war and returned to Selby in 1946. To find his fiance [sic] in the arms of two Italian prisoners. According to George he gave the Italians a thrashing – which would have been very true to character – and left them with their heads jammed in the railings, to be released later by the fire-brigade. The Law caught up with him and George was given a dressing -down by the magistrate who said “We don’t want ruffians like you in this country”. George claims he told the magistrate to get some service in and his knees brown and the case was adjourned. At that time the Crown Agents were recruiting for East African Posts & Telegraphs Dept. and George felt it was time to emigrate. All aeronautical communications were handled by E.A.P. & T. until the end of 1950 when they were taken over by the Directorate of Civil Aviation. George and I had to cover 84 hours each week between us, thoeoretically[sic] a 42 hour week, but there was no provision for sickness, local leave, and the many chores which required both of us, like being in three places simultaneously. We were assisted by an african [sic] wireless operator, a Kikuyu 1200 miles from his home, a cleaner, a watchman, and a diesel mechanic, Kundan Singh Babra, all of whom lived on the station. George and I agreed our individual responsibilities, we would each carry out our 42 hours per week on watches, which included R/T to aircraft on HF and VHF, an aerodrome control function, W/T to Nairobi as required, originating meteorological reports each hour and coding them into Aero format, and customs duties. In addition, he would deal with all the admin., and I would see to the technical aspect of keeping the station on the air.
The station had been established in 1932 and the original Marconi M/F Beacon, a type TA4A was still in use and in immaculate condition. We had a stock of MT16 valves enough to last for another 30 years. We also had an ex-South African Air Force T1190 of 1933 vintage, fitted in 1940, and four ET4336 transmitters for working aircraft on R/T and Nairobi on W/T. Everything was in very good condition and gave me no problems. Our “office” was at the D/F
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(direction finding) station, and was fitted with one of the original DFG10 Marconi recieivers [sic] .
We could not see the runway from the office, which rather limited our scope in controlling it.
Each week, Mbeya had only 4 East African Airways scheduled Dakotas and Loadstars, on the Nairobi-Dar es Salaam route, plus a Beaver of Central African Airways from Blantyre in Nyasaland and one R.A.F. transport from Johannesburg to Nairobi. There were also up to a dozen or so charters which sometimes arrived with little or no notice. Our M/F Beacon was the only navigation aid for some hundreds of miles in all directions. The D/F Receiver was not in use and had a faulty power unit. This I serviced and used the receiver for monitoring Tabora’s M/F Beacon. We were operating also on 6440 KHz, the Salisbury F.I.C. channel, unofficially, to keep in touch with the Beaver aircraft which were not fitted with Nairobi F.I.C. channels. This proved very useful and also gave us a rapid link with Salisbury Ndola and Blantyre. One day and R.A.F. Anson called on [underlined] 6440 [/underlined] and reported his MF/DF receiver, - in his only [inserted in margin] NOT 6440 BUT 5190[?] [/inserted in margin] navigational aid – out of order. He was over mountains, - he hoped – in cloud, could we give him QDM’s, (courses to steer) on M/F ?. I told him to transmit on 333 KHz, the standard frequency for this purpose, and it took only a few seconds to retune the DFG10 to this frequency. For the next 2 1/2 hrs. I gave him a QDM every three minutes. The weather was bad and the aircraft eventually landed at Mbeya, staying overnight. The Navigator was visibly shaken, he did not know his position, only that if he acted on the QDM,’s he would eventually reach Mbeya. Only after landing could he calculate his ground speed, about 70 knots. On arrival over Mbeya the crew were able to see Mbeya Peak above cloud, This was five miles to the North of us and with a cloud base of 3000 feet above the aerodrome they were able to descent and land. All this would of course have been totally unacceptable to a civilian aircraft which would have possibly returned to it’s starting point. The R.A.F. aircraft without any Nav. Aids had really no option. Some weeks later we received a letter from the R.A.F. thanking us for the assistance we had given the Anson crew in providing M/F bearings thus preventing a possible disaster, etc. etc. Unfortunately this letter was also copied to D.C.A. H.Q. with another asking if the facility could be retained. The next mail brought a letter from our own boss, the Director of Civil Aviation.. “Whilst complimenting and thanking you for taking the initiative on this occasion…”. The letter went on to point out the legal significance of giving information to pilots and of undertaking to provide a direction-finding facility with 20-year old equipment and no spares. I made sure I could provide an alternative power supply of 2 and 130 volts which did not take much imagination and adapted some modern valves – type 6C4 – with bases to replace the original 1930 vintage triodes. There were not used in my 2 1/2 years in Mbeya and we continued to give bearings to the R.A.F. unofficially. About 2 years later a Pye VHF set was fitted together with a D/F antenna and also a modern Redifon M/F Beacon, both with an effective range no better than 25% of the 1932 equipment. This was not the fault of the manufacturers. In the case of the D/F the reason was the difference in propagation characteristics and with the M/F Beacon it would have been better to retain the original 1932 Marconi type antenna.
I have no notes of this period, but memories are many. I recall seeing a Cheetah on the grass landing area we called a runway, whilst carrying
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out a runway inspection. As I approached, the cheetah ran off. My foot was hard down doing 58 m.p.h. just behind it, but the cheetah gradually drew away. Daily inspection of the ‘runway’ was necessary. Ant-Bear holes appeared quite often, and just one of these was sufficient to wreck an aircraft. Africans had free access to the runway except when aircraft were actually using it. One evening a grass fire started and swept first along the windward side of the runway where the grass was long, and then crossed it in a line of flame and black smoke the whole length of the runway. Hilda and I were on foot at the other side of the runway and witnessed literally hundreds of snakes fleeing from the fire. There were lots of snakes and other creatures in that area which after all was open African bush. This was again highlighted at 6 am one morning when I drove to the D/F station and opened up the radio. It was still dark and there was a very pungent smell of pigs. I assumed there was a dead animal outside but within a few minutes it was daylight and having established contact with Nairobi on w/t and confirmed there were no overnight disasters requiring my attention, I went outside to investigate. There were elephants all over the place, standing there, and looking just as surprised as I was. I made a strategic withdrawal smartly into the D/F station and bolted the door. On my way to the office I had met the African nightwatchman who was waving his arms about and saying something about ‘tembo mningi sani”. The word Tembo was generally associated with Elephant Brand Beer, which was more a part of everyday life in our immediate area than the animal after which it was named. I assumed he had been drinking and thought no more of it. The africans too were soon awake and trying to chase the elephants out of the maize, throwing tin cans, stones and even pangas at them. Three africans were killed in the process. Meanwhile I telephoned the police who said it was not their shouri (affair), “tell the Game Warden”. It was then 6.15am. and the Game Warden would not take the matter seriously, claiming I was drinking too much, “see the M.O.”! There was a scheduled Dakota due at 7 am. and I asked the pilot to overfly the runway and make sure there were no elephants on it, and this he agreed to do. I gave him the surface wind and QNH and landing clearance, and he came straight in and landed, without checking. He too thought I was not being serious about the elephants. It was mid-day before the elephants left of their own accord and moved back towards the mountains to the south. The Africans said the elephant movement was a sure sign that Rungwe, our local dormant volcano was about to erupt, and the elephants had already received warning. They took me to the fire trench round the Shell petrol dump which was 10 feet deep, and showed me the alternate layers of volcanic ash and sandy soil, starting at the bottom with four inch layers. At the 5’ level about 8” layers, gradually thickening as compression decreased to a 12” layer of ash and finally, 18” of soil at the top. There was no record of the date of the last erruption,[sic] probably some hundreds of years ago. We did experience several earth tremmors [sic] in Mbeya, but it was a nice life and we decided to stick it out!
Colin and Wendy were attending Mrs. Maugham-Brown’s infants school in the town and were making very good progress. Hilda was doing retouching of photographs for Arthur Firmin which were sent to and from his Nairobi office by air mail. It was in Mbeya that I built my first amateur transmitter with bits and pieces from the junk box, and was soon in daily contact with the outside world on the morse key.
On the sixth of Feb. 1952 I called my chum in Liverpool as usual and he told me that all U.K. stations were closed for the day in deference to King
[inserted] G6YQ George [/inserted]
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George VI who had died during the night. Later that day Hilda and I went to Mbeya School to see Colin, expecting the football match to have been cancelled. I expressed my surprise to the Provincial Commissioner (the King’s direct representative) that the Union Jacks were not at half mast and the game still on. He told me not to spread rumours and he would deal with me after the game. Just after half-time a Police askari despatch rider drove onto the field and gave the P.C., who was referee, a message. The P.C. stopped the game and announced that the King was dead. He was very annoyed indeed that I had received the message direct from U.K., many hours ahead of the official channels. Mbeya had a local telephone service which did not connect with any other. It was also at one end of a single-wire line of about 1000 miles which was used for passing telegraph messages. This linked about 30 places ‘up-country’ with Dar es Salaam, the Capital. There was no other way officially of telecommunicating with Mbeya. It so happened that I had a pair of ex-military amplified telephones, which were battery powered, press-to-talk operation and which gave an amplification each of 20 dB (100 times). I sent one of these to Jimmie Waldron in Dar es Salaam and by arrangement he called me one morning at 0545 on this line. We had a first-class conversation which was truly remarkable. This was possible only because the operators at the 30 or so other stations were still asleep, and not interfering. I have no doubt this particular exploit would compare very favourably with the record longest telephone conversation over a single wire and earth, if indeed a record has been established.
George Hanson and I got on very well with each other, both being from Yorkshire and both being ex-Service, but eventually his tour of 2 1/2 years was completed and he was succeeded by Doug. Clifton, who was ex-PTT and R.A.F. ground wireless operator. We moved into the cottage vacated by George and family, near to the transmitting station, and I ran a mains cable underground between the two. This gave us 230 ac. Power for 12 hours a day and at night whenever the radio beacon was required for overflying aircraft.
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One quiet morning the Provincial Commisioner [sic] asked me to his home to discuss a problem, and on arrival I was told that the Governor, Sir Edward Twining was convalescing in Mbeya, having just arrived, but could stay only if he could speak regularly with the Chief Secretary in Dar es Salaam. The Police and Posts & Telegraphs Departments had already been approached and could not assist. I was authorised to cut clean across any rules and regulations in order to set up a communications channel. Back at the D/F Station I sent an official message on the Aeronautical W/T channel to CHF ZHTD (Officer i/c Airport Dar-es-Salaam) asking him to pass a message to Jimmie Waldron, P.T.T. Chief Engineer’s office. I told Jimmie of the Governors request and the powers bestowed upon us, and that I would call him on 7151 KHz which was just above the upper limit of the amateur 40 meter band. I would install a receiver at the P.C.’s house. Would he advise me of his transmitting frequency. Meanwhile I got the local P.T.T. to connect my second aerodrome telephone line to the second line to the P.C.’s house. This automatically provided a microphone for the P.C. and enabled me to make a simple connection to my amateur transmitter at the airport. Half an hour later I received a message on the aeronautical channel “Loud and clear on 7175, Dar es salaam calling you on 8775. A check on my local receiver and indeed there was Jimmie. I then drove to the P.C.’s house and retuned the receiver to 8775, and we had first class duplex communication. A lady’s voice came on “Is that you George?” “No Love, this is Cliff”. “Oh dear, this is Lady Twining, is my husband George there please?” I handed him the telephone and restrained myself from saying “It’s for you George, I thought your name was Edward”. For the next two weeks the link was in constant use and another letter of thanks was sent from D.C.A. in Nairobi.
Why the fuss one might say, but in 1952 it was the very first time [inserted] H E [/inserted] H.H. the Governor had spoken by private radio telephone to his Chief Secretary from outside Dar es Salaam. This was another ‘first’, also on an amateur basis.
At Mbeya Post Office I was introduced to the Manager of New Saza Gold Mine, which was about 100 miles north of Mbeya. He said his radio link with Mbeya had not worked for four years although experts from all over East Africa had tried to fix it. It was a simple w/t link to Mbeya Post Office where there was an operating position and transmitter set up on 3900 KHz which seemed to be a reasonable frequency for the job. “Fix it and you can name your price”, and I agreed to have a go on a ‘no pass, no fee basis’. I first set up a spare DCA transmitter keyed from the D/F station, rather than rely upon co-operation from the Post office. My own DCA operator would monitor. I called the local Post office from the aerodrome but there was no reply. This was the rainy season and it would be a three hour drive through the bush to New Saza, so I lost no time over the Post Office and set off in my Ford Prefect complete with two amateur transmitters and two receivers, any combination of which could do the job if all else failed. On arrival, their station appeared to be working and with adequate output, but I soon found the output stage was doubling to 7.8 MHz. and not amplifying straight through 3.9. A higher tapping on the coil fixed that and I called Mbeya Post office. No reply. Then I called ZEQ3, my own office at the D/F Station and my operator came up trumps. We were in contact with
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Mbeya. I asked my operator to ring the Postmaster asking him to kick his wireless operator. He found the transmitter had the wrong crystal in it and the receiver was also detuned. Having corrected this, all three stations were in contact. The station receiver at New Saza was a pre-war ‘straight set’, that is, not a superhet, and was not ideal, so I added one of my own receivers. In addition, I fitted a second operating position, with my own equipment and separate aerial, as a standby. The manager was delighted and I was rewarded handsomely. Only once in the next 18 months did I need to visit New Saza for a minor fault. Electrical and mechanical power for the mine was derived from a very old wood-burning steam engine of pre-1914 vintage and German manufacture.
On the road about half way to the mine, was Chunya, a typical American-type western one-horse town, the main street being unpaved and 200 feet wide. The place was almost derelict, a few prospectors still panned for gold in the stream, but in years gone by it had supported a population of over 2000. There was a Police post which sported a telephone connected to Mbeya Post office. The overhead line ran at the side of the ‘road’ and I had this in mind for emergency use. A field telephone was part of my standard safari equipment in the car. Later on I carried a transmitter on the aeronautical H/F channels in addition. Communications was often the key to survival.
One very hot day, about noon, George Blodgett, an American tourist, took off from Mbeya in his Cessna 180 with his wife and another passenger, continuing their round-the-world holiday. The aircraft carried the same load as when it took off from Dar es salaam without problem a week or so previously. But Dar was at sea level, and Mbeya at 6500 feet. Dar had a proper concrete runway with a clear flight path. Mbeya had a grass ‘runway’, much shorter and with a small hill at one end and a mountain within 4 miles at the other end. It was the slight banking to avoid the small hill which caused the aircraft to stall and plough along the ground, writing itself off. It took me several minutes to reach the wreck, to find a bewildered trio shaken-up, but physically unhurt. There was a strong smell of petrol which came from a 5 gallon can INSIDE the aircraft. The can had a hand pump and hose which fitted on the drain cock of a fuel tank inside the port wing. Transferring the petrol was achieved by opening a window and leaning out to fix the pipe. This rather surprised me as George was a very experienced pilot and was in fact the first to cross the Andes in Peru, solo, where some years later he went missing without trace. His life-story was written up in Time & Life and referring to his accident in Mbeya, it said he had crashed in the bush and the Despatcher from Mbeya trecked [sic] all night to reach the aircraft, to find George and his passengers surrounded by lions and tigers. Lions were a possibility but the only tigers in Africa are [deleted] a few imported ones in captivity. [/deleted] [inserted] in West Africa and are not tigers as we know them. [/inserted]
Mbeya was a peaceful place, and to a large extent we were able to plan our lives. Occasionally we became involved with the local tribesmen, particularly after one of their frequent skirmishes. Generally a small group would appear at the house bearing the injured on bicycles with blood all over the place, and asking me to take the casualties to hospital. The first time this happened I took them by car to the African Hospital and not really knowing the system, gave them my name. Some weeks later I received the bill. Subsequent deliveries were made in the name of Ramsey Macdonald!
Soon after joining DCA I noticed on one of many flight plans received the name of Iliffe as Captain of an incoming Dakota. When the First Officer
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called me on VHF I requested him to ask the Captain if the number 1090111 meant anything to him. Back came the reply, affirmative. I gave him my first service number 1384956 and after he had landed, went over to the Terminal Building to see him. There wasn’t much time for reminiscing but he marvelled that I had remembered his first service number. It was on a pay parade in Bulawayo that Howard’s name was not called with the others in alphabetical order. It was called at the very end when he gave his ‘last three’, somewhat disgruntled, as “Sir, One one bloody one”.
We had seen a great deal of each other on the troopship going to Durban and until our ways parted at Belvedere where Howard got his wings and my records were stamped ‘Wastage’. After his training at Belvedere, he completed S.F.T.S. on Oxfords and in U.K. converted to Dakotas. His war was on Transport Command, flying Dakotas. We met several times in the next 15 years, the last time being in 1965 when Howard was the Captain of a Comet of East African Airways returning to the U.K.
After 2 1/2 years in Tanganyika our tour was finished and we were due for 6 months leave in U.K.. We opted to travel by air rather than sea but did not realise when making the decision that this referred to trunk travel to U.K. from the International Airport of the territory in which we finished our tour. It was unlikely that we would return to Mbeya after leave, my successor expecting to stay for the full 2 1/2 years. All our effects were crated up whilst we spent the last week in Mbeya Hotel. The car was left with the Postmaster and Paddy our Alsation [sic] boarded with Mrs. Maugham-Brown. And so with four children, Christopher a baby of 4 months, we said farewell to Mbeya at the railway station, not by train but by diesel-powered bus - referred to as a ‘taxi’ by the Africans. The first leg took us the 250 miles through Southern Highlands to Iringa, where accommodation was reserved at Iringa Hotel. The next day was very similar, by another ‘taxi’ to Dodoma. The drivers were Africans, probably ex-Kings African Rifles, and their driving was of a very high standard considering the state of the road. There was some tarmac in the towns, but otherwise the road surface was graded murram, a well-packed reddish sand. This was apt to become corrugated after rain and scarred with deep wheel ruts. Ruts made by lorries could be quite deep and dangerous to cars with little clearance below. The ‘taxi’ took us direct to the railway station at Dodoma where we had been advised to request compartments as near to the engine as possible, where the sway is minimum. The first job was to wash all the nappies and as we had two compartments it was easy to sling a couple of lines and hang up the nappies to dry. It was very hot in Dodoma, and the carriage windows were all open because of the heat. In the evening the engine got up steam and the train moved off amid clouds of thick black smoke, most of which seemed to come in at the windows. For 18 hours we chugged across the plains with its tens of thousands of many different types of wild animals, gradually descending to the coast and becoming progressively hotter. Arriving in Dar es Salaam at about 4 pm., the temperature in the shade was 120 deg.f. and it was a great relief to flop onto the beds in the air-conditioned hotel. The evening was spent in trying to clean up our clothing and indeed ourselves, with Christopher’s nappies hanging on lines in the hotel room. The nappies dried within an hour but were still filthy. After a browse around the big stores in Dar, we handed in our 480 lbs. of baggage and placed ourselves in the capable hands of B.O.A.C.
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Our flight home was by Arganaut, [sic] 16 hours flying, stopping at Nairobi, Entebbe, Khartoum, Benghazi and Rome. Plenty of seat room, excellent food and a very comfortable flight. One engine developed trouble approaching Italy and we were delayed for 24 hours in Rome. The Romans were hostile to the British at that time, I cannot remember why this was so, but we enjoyed a conducted tour of Rome and first-class hotel accommodation. At breakfast next morning I thought I recognised a fellow at the next table. He was under the same impression and when he spoke to us there was instant recognition. He was the B.O.A.C. Rep. in Rome and we had seen a great deal of each other on the squadron in North Africa. He was then W/O Woolston, a pilot on 150 Sqdn. We arrived in London 24 hours late, but there were no complaints. B.O.A.C. had made the trip very enjoyable.
The greater part of our leave was spent in London with Hilda’s parents, and I took the opportunity of spending 12 weeks at the School of Telegraphy in Brixton, for an Intermediate C. & G. in Telecomms and a P.M.G 1st. Class licence. I was also on a course of Dexedrine to reduce my weight, eating very little and actually losing it at the rate of 1lb. per day, for 44 days. Peter Gunns, another D.C.A., Radio Officer had been at the school for 6 months and was doing the complete 12 month course for a P.M.G. second class licence. I decided to give it three months and take the first class ticket. The Principal at the school advised against it, almost everyone first obtained a second-class ticket before trying for a first. For three months I swatted hard, long into the night and then went to Post Office H.Q. in St. Martin-le-Grand and applied to take the P.M.G.1 licence. The Chief examiner asked to see my second-class licence and when I said I didn’t have one, he said “look son, try for a second class and if you pass, come back in a few years time and try for a first”. I replied that I was not interested in anything second-class and he shrugged his shoulders and booked me to take the exam. three days hence. The exam. took from 9 am to 5 pm., written and practical and was quite intensive. The final part was the morse test at 25 w.p.m. and the examiner was wearing an R.S.G.B. tie. I took a chance at the end of the test and sent, on the key ‘QRA? De VQ4BM’ and after an exchange of greetings he asked me if I was returning to Kenya. I replied “yes, but only if I pass this exam”. He sent QRX3 and left the room, returning with a smile and said “strictly off the record, you could book your ticket”. The next three days were taken up with City & Guilds exams, and I was delighted when my P.M.G. licence arrived by post. The following day, feeling on top line, Hilda and I went to M.C.A. Headquarters at Berkeley Square and I applied to take the Flight Radio Officer’s exam. I found this was held only twice yearly and by sheer coincidence the next one was the following day. I was told to just fill in the form, pay £3 and come back at 0830 the next day. I saw the Chief examiner and told him I wasn’t quite prepared for the exam. at such short notice, it was many years since I had studied the S.B.A. and Navigational aids. He told me not to worry about them and to check through the last 5 exam. papers, copies of which he lent me. They could be bought openly from the “shop” downstairs, but this was already closed. He also said “bear in mind that everything has its own natural frequency”. I spent until 5 am next morning making sure I could answer all the questions on those papers, and doubly sure of the compulsory questions. I noticed that
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year 4 had the same compulsory questions as year 1, and year 5 the same as year 2. Year 6 was to be my lot and if this was to be the same as year 3, on cathode ray tubes, all would be well, and I had a couple of hours sleep. It had taken me a long time to realise what the Chief Examiner had meant by “it’s own natural frequency”.
The exams were spread over a period of two days and I failed two of them. The first was a three-minute test writing down the phonetic alphabet and I wrote “Alpha bravo coca delta foxtrot golf hotel etc.” The examiner looked over my shoulder and remarked “what on earth have we here, have you never heard of able baker Charlie?”. I thought this was a catch and I said “yes but that went out three years ago when I.C.A.O. introduced this one”. It seemed that Britain was three years behind the rest of the world on this simple issue. I had however quite rightly failed on R/T procedure. All went well on a simulated flight from Manchester to Jersey when I received a chitty that both engines had stopped and we were on fire. There was already a M’iadez in force from another aircraft and I broke radio silence and put out my own “M’aidez” without the Captain’s authority and that was the end of the exam. FAILED! on two counts. I had passed two three hour written papers, a two hour practical exam., an hour’s morse at 25 w.p.m. and failed on two ridiculous details. I said I was sufficiently experienced to anticipate the Captain’s instruction to send out an SOS but the book does say that only the Captain has the authority. However, I paid another £3 which I could by then ill-afford and resat the two parts the following morning. The licence came by post a few days later. The R/T Procedure test was the same as before, and when we reached the point where I had put out my M’aidez I just sat tight. I heard the other aircraft transmit his SOS again and it was acknowledged by Jersey Approach. Without authority to transmit an SOS I could not break radio silence according to the regulations and I continued to sit tight. One minute of real time was equivalent to 10 minutes of ‘flying’ and after 30 minutes of theoretical flying time I removed my headphones and placed them on the table. The examiner did likewise and asked me what I thought I was doing.
I just said “swimming to the surface”. He laughed and said O.K. at least you didn’t originate a M’aidez. In the practical M.C.A. exam the equipment in use was the T1154 and R1155 and the main object of the examiner seemed to me to be one of getting me confused, argumentative and thoroughly rattled. Thanks maybe to the dexedrine I realised what his game was and remained very calm indeed. He admitted afterwards that he was trying to get me rattled, remaining calm and composed was all important in the air!. I cast my mind back 10 years but said nothing.
Meanwhile Peter Gunns was still plodding on and becoming very discouraged. I urged him to take the PMG2 the following week, there was little point in further delay. I spent a week with him going through every paper set for 5 years, and he was successful in the exam. A few weeks later we returned to Nairobi together. About 10 years later Peter died of a heart attack whilst on night duty in the Nairobi Communications Centre. He was taking a short break and read in the newspaper that Pinnocks had folded up. He had £15,000 invested with them, and the loss was too much to bear. After a few weeks at Eastleigh I was posted to Mwanza on the southern shores of Lake Victoria, again in Tanganyika.
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Our car, a Ford Prefect KCC13 (new price £400) and Paddy our alsatian, were nearly 1000 miles away in Mbeya and I was able to scrounge a flight as supernumery [sic] crew with East African Airways. The return journey by road with Paddy took 30 hours non-stop except for refuelling and for half an hour at dawn when driving was dangerous. The work in Nairobi was operating air/ground channels on R/T and W/T and also at the D/F station giving H/F bearings to aircraft on the Khartoum and Johannesburg sectors where navigation aids were few and far between. It transpired later that the D/F station was adjacent to the Mau Mau graveyard. I recall one day looking out of the door and seeing the police askari guard fast asleep with his loaded rifle on the ground beside him. More for security reasons than mischief I took the rifle inside the building and it was still there when I closed the station at 1830. But there was no sign of the askari, so I put the rifle in the loft of the small building, intending to do something about it next day. Somehow I forgot all about it for two weeks and then handed in the rifle at the R.A.F. guardroom and questioned why the police had taken no action. The askari had just disappeared without trace.
Once again our household effects were packed into crates, and despatched by ‘rail’ to Mwanza. We had exchanged our Ford Prefect for an Austin A70 and motored via Kitale (my father’s farm) to Kisumu where we boarded the M.V. Rusinga. The Rusinga ploughed clockwise round the lake shore calling at Musoma, Mwanza, Bukoba, Entebbe, Jinja and complete circle to Kisumu. Her sister ship the M.V. Usoga called at the same ports, but went anti-clockwise round the lake. A third ship, the M.V. Sybil was smaller and more or less a reserve vessel. Lake Victoria was the second largest inland sea in the world, and became the largest when its level rose 8 feet with the building of the dam at Jinja a few years later. The voyage of about 200 miles took a very pleasant 30 hours with one halt at Musoma. We were met at Mwanza Port by Johnny King who I was relieving. He said he expected to return to Mwanza in 6 months as it was his station and his wife’s father was Government entomologist permanently stationed there. His wife’s family were German, very domineering and forceful. I didn’t mind the mother’s clay pipe but took an instant dislike to her Bavarian-type husband. I insisted upon a proper formal take-over at the airport which was just as well, and the proper storage of King’s personal effects at P.W.D and not in the transmitter room. For a couple of weeks we stayed at Mwanza Hotel and then moved to a delightful house at Bwiru, facing north with a wonderful view over Lake Victoria. Palm trees in the foreground, paw paw trees in the garden and - we discovered much later - leopard in the hills at the back of the house. The water supply came from a storage tank half a mile up the hill via a metal pipe on the surface of the ground, and was always hot enough for a bath without further heating. The water had to remain in our roof storage tank for some time before we could regard it as being a cold water supply. Water and electricity could not be taken for granted in East Africa, but the house was connected to the town electricity supply.
The airport was a fairly new one about 10 miles east of town, by the lake shore, the single runway 18/36 being of grass. It was a neat little place, the transmitters being in the room below the Control Tower with two diesel engines and fire station being in a custom-built building 50 yards away. The
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transmitters were two RCA ET4336s, a G54 Redifon M/F Beacon and an ex-R.A.F. T1154. In the Control Tower was a Pye PTC704 VHF set with a direction-finding antenna. There were only 6 scheduled aircraft per week and an average of about 10 charters. This was a ‘one man’ station and my working hours were long. Perhaps the highlight of the tour was the four-day visit of H.R.H. Princess Margaret. The ten mile road to town was ‘tarmaced’ [sic] a few days before her arrival. The original murrum (red sand) surface was first graded and then covered by a quarter inch layer of chippings and sprayed with tar. The cost was £11,000 which was charged to my aerodrome maintenance vote. For the few days of the visit the road looked really superb, and then just a few days later it rained and the remains of the “tarmac surface” were cleared away by grader, the surface reverting to murram once more.
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Every effort was being made by the Administration to make the Royal Visit a success and the costs were covered somehow. The M.V. Sybil was in dock for 6 months at Kisumu being completely refitted so the Princess could spend just a few hours on the lake. An R.A.F. Shackleton flew down from Aden to provide an escort for the Sybil. Four radio stations were established on the boat, each with an operator, to contact the Police on H/F W/T, Aircraft on VHF, Mwanza Airport on H/F R/T, and E. A. Railways & Harbours. Just about every vessel afloat on Lake Victoria seemed to be milling around outside the harbour waiting for the Sybil and the Princess. A Widgeon aircraft, the only amphibean [sic] in E. Africa, was detailed to position itself at the end of the runway at instant readiness for take-off. The Shackleton took-off to patrol an hour before the Sybil was due to leave harbour, Captain Chris Treen positioned his Widgeon and stayed put with engines idling. All the Sybil's radios were tested and people were getting excited. We were then advised that it was a case of not tonight Josephine, H.R.H. had a headache, the trip was cancelled. The Shackleton, looking remarkably like a real Lancaster landed on my murrum runway, and the Widgeon had to be towed in backwards, the engines having over-heated.
In company with all the other Colonial officials I had been given six pages of foolscap telling me how to address the Princess and how to conduct myself in the Royal presence. There was also an application form for a Permit to be at the airport for her arrival and another application form regarding my being presented to the Princess. It was the two application forms which bugged me. I refused to apply for a permit to enter the airport where every aspect was my responsibility, if anyone denied me access, be it on their own head. "Before applying to be presented", the write-up stated, "You must qualify under at least one of the following headings:-
1. Be a Government Servant on a salary exceeding '£x'
2. Be a serving officer of H. M. forces,
3. Be a retired officer having held a rank above 'Y'
4. Hold a Civil Decoration equivalent or senior to an M.B.E.
5. Hold a military decoration.
6. Have already been presented to another member of the Royal Family.
There was virtually an order to apply if one qualified and this decided me to ignore the whole issue. I was not in favour of the pomp and circumstance and the relatively vast expenditure involved, and I was never any good at playing charades and other party games.
Just before the Royal Visit a gang of workmen turned up at the airport and were starting to fit a toilet suite in the 'Crew Room'. This was a small room where aircrews could relax and enjoy a little privacy between flights. Toilet facilities were quite adequate without specially converting the crew room for the Princess. I vetoed the plan, and finally the toilet wing, already with four Asian type and four European type loos was enhanced with one new and rather superior loo. The superloo did come in useful however; whilst the Princess was inspecting the guard of honour, the bare-chested Engineer of the Widgeon aircraft appeared inside the Terminal building,
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looking quite incongruous in his filthy shorts and sandals. I told him to keep out of sight until Princes Margaret had left. He did, and hid in the superloo. After the visit, someone fixed a royal coat of arms an the door to which I had the only key. I was tempted to replace the heraldry with a replica of the board made for me by one of the German prisoners at Poynton. written in Gothic characters "Lager Kommandant, Eintritt Verbotten".
The Royal Visit was the highlight of the decade for Mwanza, the road to the aerodrome was closed for three hours and all the Police were concerned only with the visit. It was during that three hours the villains broke into many European houses. We lost all our shoes which were not actually being worn at the time, some clothing, and all our clocks including a time-switch I had just repaired for someone.
There was one charter aircraft based at Mwanza, the Widgeon piloted by Chris Treen. It was a very busy aircraft, being an amphibean [sic] , going relatively short flights mostly around the lake shore. Chris had a full-time engineer who was not very co-operative, and the operation proved to be uneconomical although Chris tried very hard. He was on Transport Command during the war and later flew in the Berlin Air Lift, then flew the Widgeon from U.K., 6000 miles to Mwanza. The airline had its moments, on one occasion the Provincial Commissioner was climbing out of the aircraft at Ukerewe Island into a dingy which collapsed and he was nearly drowned. Submerged rack. and crocodiles added to the excitement
One of the busiest aircraft at Mwanza was a Miles Magister which, was owned privately and which has also been flown out from England by its owner, an official of the Lint & Seed Marketing Board, who also had an Aircraft Maintenance Engineers' licence. It became the main asset of the Mwanza Aeroclub and was very active at weekends.
The tribe an Ukerewe Island had it's own language, and the story goes that the District Officer studied the language and wrote a dictionary and grammar for it. Having done so he applied for the £60 per year "language competency allowance", and to qualify had first to pass the Official Colonial Office exam. in the subject. The Colonial Office department which organised such matters was duly asked to prepare an exam. and find an invigilator for it, but was not given the identity of the candidate. There was no record of anyone being able to speak the language, and they approached the obvious source, the District Officer Ukerewe. As a part of his normal chores he was pleased to prepare the two papers as 2 hours of translation each way between English and the native language of Ukerewe. On arrival in U. K. on leave, he received a letter from another Colonial Office department, addressing him by name and asking him to invigilate at as examination, giving the venue and date. Shortly after, yet another office wrote to him advising him that an examination had been arranged and wishing him luck in the exam. He hardly needed it, reporting as directed in his official capacities as both invigilator and examinee. Not only that, but he had also prepared the examination papers. He was the only European who knew the language and he got his £60. per annum. The common language with the natives was of course an up-country impure Swahili, as in all parts of East Africa.
I had studied Kiswahili in the Prisons Service and from books, but the grammatical version was spoken only at the coast and on the radio. The
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Africans in the Prison Service and those I worked with spoke the up-country version, almost completely ungrammaticaI. The further one went from the coast the more it became a matter of joining words together. Nevertheless, it was an interesting and descriptive Ianguage. Beautiful words like 'maradadi' which in fact is an adjective meaning 'beautiful', and 'tafadahali', said to mean 'please' , but I never actually heard an African use it. ' Asanti' meaning thankyou was frequently used. Calling someone a "shenzi" hardly needs translation.
The Caspair Lake Service operated daily. Based at Entebbe, a DeHavilland Rapide flew to Kisumu, Musoma, Mzanza, Bukoba and back to Entebbe. It called at Mwanza three times weekly and remained on the ground for 4 hours. Paddy O'Reilly was the most colourful of the pilots and on one occasion was missing when the aircraft was due to take-off. He had borrowed a native canoe and paddled out into the lake for some peace and quiet. He was very soon asleep and when he awoke he found he was two miles off-shore without a paddle. He was soon rescued and took off two hours late.
I had a very good African Assistant at Mwanza, Zepherino Shija, and he was a tremendous help in making things run smoothly. In fact my African staff were all good types, far from home, politicians and the trouble-makers to be influenced by them.
It was at Mwanza that I really became involved with radio repairs, and once I had repaired a few, word quickly spread and I was inundated with them. Many of the 'dukes' -shops- in town sold radios but hadn't the vaguest idea how they worked or how to repair them. Most of the radio owned by the Africans were powered by dry batteries, using a 4-pin plug on the power lead which was very often forced the wrong way into the socket on the battery. This instantly blew all four valves for which the shops charged 25 shillings each. I bought valves for 3 shillings each in quantity and sold them in sets of 4 for forty shillings, throwing in a new and better type plug. I must have repaired over a thousand radios in two years, plus many bigger sets for Europeans. Before very long I met Mr. Manning, the American Head of the African Inland Mission in the Province, and he showed me a room full of equipment, domestic radios, car radios, record players, tape recorders, transmitters, P.A. ampIifiers etc. etc. Every item was faulty. I was invited to repair what I could, keep what I wanted and throw out anything that was past it. Three trans-receivers were very attractive and they needed only setting up. Independent transmitter and receiver units powered from 115v a.c. but with rather limited frequency coverage of 5 to 8 MHz. I used them on the air for a couple of weeks and they were then taken by road to African Inland Mission stations in the Belgium Congo where they had a network on 7150 KHz. These sets were to prove very useful within a few years during the Congo rebellion which came with "Independence". It took me 6 months to empty the room, and all except three or four units were returned to use within the Mission organisation. Those three or four units caused a misunderstanding with Mr. Manning. I said "These units are U/S, best place for them is in the lake", and I could see that I had upset him. He associated my expression 'U.S' . with Uncle Sam, or the United States, but when I explained it meant ‘unservicable’ in English Service jargon a crisis was avoided.
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I met a fellow called Nawotsey, supposed to be a Belgian, who was making a fortune killing crocodiles for their skins. He had just about wiped them out on Lake Rukwa. His technique was to use an infra-red lamp and sniperscope at very close range, typically six feet. His equipment gave a lot of trouble and I charged him well over the odds for repairs. In reality he was German, and ex-German army. There were many of them in ex-German Tanganyika but few had the guts to admit it, and there was not a nazi among them, in theory.
Eventually one of the dukas offered me £50 per month cash if would stop doing radio repairs. This was not far short of my salary and quite a compliment, but not accepted.
We became very friendly with one German, Dr. Schupler, who had been a wartime Medical Officer in the Luftwaffe. He was serving in Dresden the night of the 13th. of February 1945 when it was attacked by over 800 R.A.F. bombers, followed by over 300 American Fortresses the next day, causing between them 137,000 casualties including an estimated 50,000 killed. A doctor somehow seemed to be in a different and acceptable category, but our talks had reminded one of a period I had almost forgotten, and about which I had stopped thinking. One good point in East Africa's favour, there was very little to remind us of the war. A row of ribbons perhaps on a police uniform, or a retired senior type using his old rank, but there were few occasions when we compared, notes on our respective war efforts. The Germans were supposed to be super-efficient, a myth already exploded, but in the main they were still mostly distrusted.
Mwanza was a peaceful place, there was only one murder during our 2 years residence, and that was committed by a mad african from Dodoma, 400 miles away. I could not have visualised at the time that within twentyseven years this nice little airport would be bombed by the Uganda Air Force. I can picture now the little bakery where the murder was committed. It was in same road just before we left that a hyena was running down the road to meet us. We were in the Austin A70 which already had a damaged right. wing and I put on full speed. We met the hyena head-on, relative speed about 70 and he was thrown completely over the car. He lay on the road for about two minutes, then picked himself up and loped off into the bush. We had ringside seats watching an interesting battle between hyena and baboon one evening. Our bungalow was on the hillside and the bedroom windows on one side were 15 feet above ground, and level with the tops of the pawpaw trees, heavily laden with fruit. The baboon were taking the fruit and being attacked by about a dozen hyena which were being thrown around by the baboon. The fight finished suddenly for reasons best known to the combatants. They might have sensed the presence of a leopard, which was very likely, but we were not aware of the leopards ourselves until a few weeks later. In the middle of one night we were awakened by a scuffling outside the window and there was the most obnoxious stench. There was the so-called laugh of the hyena and a deep sawing sound which we were told was a leopard. It seemed that a hyena had been dragging an old carcass along when it was disturbed by a leopard. The carcass was dropped outside our bedroom window and later one of them returned to collect it. Apparently baboon are the favourite diet of the leopard and everything including baboon and leopard dislikes the hyena. One of them cornered a neighbour’s dog in our garage and
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chewed off it’s vital parts before help arrived too late. Snakes too were in abundance around Mwanza, and a European girl had been crushed, but not fatally by a python near the lake shore. One of the houseboys hacked a monitor lizard to death, thinking it was a snake. Hilda recalls the occasion when I encountered a leopard on the driveway to the house and I got out of the car to tell her!. There was the occasion too when Paddy, our Alsatian was aware of a leopard outside the front door and Paddy's hair literally bristled. The leopard was probably aware of Paddy's presence also. I was away in Nairobi at the time
Some months before the end of our tour, we received a telegram from Les with the sad news that Hilda's father had died. At about the same time the Kenya Education authorities informed us that as we were no longer resident in Kenya, Colin and Wendy would have to leave Kitale School. The alternative was Kongwa, a school established at the time of the groundnut scheme, a British Government fiasco then almost fully wound up after wasting eighteen million pounds. Kongwa was about 400 miles away and difficult to reach from Mwanza, and as it would be only a temporary measure in any case, we felt it better that Colin and Wendy should return to U.K. We saw them off on the Dakota on an hour's flight to Entebbe where they were met by Flossy and Pi Reed. The following day they flew to London and stayed with Mum at Korella Rd., in Wandsworth.
In early June `57 it was time for home leave again and once more we packed all our household effects into huge crates ready for shipping to our next station which had not yet been decided. I had been promoted to Radio Superintendant [sic] in Mbeya and later to Telecommunications Supt. having passed departmental exams for the two lots of promotion. I was finally relieved by Sailor Seaman who immediately objected to the long working hours. The way of life on the outstations had a great deal to commend it. There was no television but we always had a good radio set. There was not the pressure we were to experience in later life and we made our own entertainment. It would be nice to go round again.
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Before leaving Mwanza I had ordered a VW Beetle on the home leave scheme stipulating the date and time that I would collect it in London. This resulted in a considerable saving. The cost was £330 delivered London whilst the price in East Africa was £1250. Colin and Wendy were already in Britain, only John and Chris were with us on this trip. From Mwanza we should have returned via the capital, Dar es Salaam, as we did from Mbeya, but for some weeks I had been pointing out the futility of the extra 1600 miles via Dar, when the the [sic] aircraft would go via Entebbe in any case. Sanity prevailed and we flew by DC3 to Entebbe, a nice lunch at the Lake Vic. and a 10 hour flight to the U.K. with one stop at Benghazi. I think that was our first trip by Jet aircraft, a Comet. I have flown in many jets since then, but none as comfortable and roomy as the Comet. The following day we went to Lower Regent Street and collected our new VW Beetle, which came into the showroom one minute ahead of schedule. I was very impressed by the German organisation. I was taken into a workshop and given some useful tips about the car which was to serve us well for over 200,00 miles most of which was on murrum, our reddish East African sandy soil.
In the following six months we made good use of the car, visiting my mother in Barnoldswick, the Yorkshire Dales, and whilst up north had a rendezvous avec Ace (Ted) and Mary Foster, Ace having been our second tour Navigator. Ted recalled this many years later and remembered an incident in a Southport restaurant. We were sharing two tables with Ted and Mary and their three children, making a party of 4 adults and 7 children. Ted alleges the waitress exclaimed “By gum are these all yours?” and claims I replied “No, they are from the local orphanage, we are just taking them out for the day”. She said that was right champion and gave us a discount! I went to Liverpool also and en-route noticed that a Police car had been right behind me for several miles. I slowed down to 30 for the next five miles and eventually the blue light came on and I was stopped. “What speed were you doing Sir?” An instant reply, “29.5 m.p.h. “The officer agreed with that and said “Why, it’s a lovely road and there’s no speed limit. When you slowed down from 80 to 30 we thought you had a problem, enjoy your visit Sir”. I had a “Visitor to Britain” sticker on the back which was supposed to help a little. In Liverpool I met Stan Chadderton, our First tour Bomb Aimer. I called at Stan’s house and his wife Hilda directed me to the Gladstone Dock where Stan was working, I seem to remember being introduced to his boss and Stan was given the rest of the day off. We adjourned to the Lord Nelson Pub and reminisced well into the night about our efforts in North Africa.
We had made another acquisition whilst in Mwanza. Clearly a base was needed in Britain even if my work was to be in East Africa. Les told us of a house in Glyn Neath called Glaslyn going for £1850 on the balance of a 999 year lease. I offered to buy it if the freehold was available. It was very quickly ours at a total cost £1910 and £25 solicitor’s fees. Hilda’s Mum moved into Glaslyn and Colin and Wendy had already joined her. Glaslyn was a comfortable and handy sort of place, only a few hundred yards from Aunt Doll’s cottage.
In early December I was told to report direct to Entebbe Airport to relieve Henry Day in charge of Telecommunications. I wrote to P.W.D. in Mwanza and asked them to send on our boxes and car by Lake Steamer to
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Entebbe, and completed other arrangements. Just before Christmas I handed over the new car to the A.A. near Tower Bridge and paid £75 for shipping it to Mombassa [sic]. Then with our four children and a mass of baggage we once again booked-in at Victoria Air Terminal and shortly afterwards we realised we had just been home for six months and were then in Entebbe. The Comet aircraft was flown by Howard Iliffe, 109011! but I discovered this too late to meet him.
At Entebbe we were met by Henry Day who had been in charge for six months in an acting capacity and he made it clear that as he was now demoted – with loss of acting pay – I could not expect any co-operation from him. For 10 days we stayed in the Lake Victoria Hotel, luxurious but not at all homely and with it’s population of some hundreds of cats living on the roof. We then moved into a house with a red mbati (corrugated iron) roof. Between the ceiling and the roof was a foot of sand and if the builders had been designing an oven it would have taken some beating. The red iron absorbed the heat from a tropical sun and it was retained by the sand. Entebbe was a pretentious place, not the capital of Uganda, which was Kampala 20 miles north, but where most of the senior Gov’t officials lived. The airport was a minor one to U.K. standards but trying very had [sic] to appear important. I found the whole place docile and yet offensive, “toffee-nosed” is the phrase which comes to mind. The job itself was not at all demanding, I had a team of about 8 Engineers including Frank Unstead and Gibby. Also three Radio Officers including Henry Day and several Africans to operate the teleprinters and radio links to Nairobi. There was little for me to do personally. Airport Management was taken care of by Uganda Government officers. The East Africa High Commission, of which the Directorate of Civil Aviation was a part, was responsible for Air Traffic Control and telecommunications. About six airlines had their own Station Managers and there was a great deal of empire building which led to over-manning and inefficiency. An individual’s importance was determined by the number of his subordinates and the extent of his warrant to incur expenditure. There was a great deal of ill-feeling too, between the officers of Government and those of the High Commission, later more appropriately renamed the East Africa Common Services Organisation. The latter was responsible for all communications in Kenya, Uganda and Tanganyika, except for the actual maintenance of roads. It included E.A. Posts & Telegraphs, Railways & Harbours, Fisheries, Meteorlogical [sic] Depts., Civil Aviation and several Medical Research establishments. Politically, the scene was complex, Kenya was a “Colony & Protectorate” – some of each – Tanganyika was a Protectorate with a United Nations mandate and Uganda a combination of twelve Kingdoms formed into a ‘State’ with 12 Kings, a Prime Minister and also a President. It had its political problems but they were not mine. Dickie Dixon was Senior Air Traffic Controller and therefore Officer i/c Navigational Services in which capacity I was his deputy. As I was not at that time a qualified Air Traffic Controller, this led to friction, and as I have already implied, Entebbe was not a happy place. The crunch came when I was told by Dickie to compile all the Annual Confidential reports, including those for Air Traffic Controllers. I told him that I did not think it proper that I should report on officers whose qualifications I did not hold myself. He should do them himself and I would write them for all the Telecommom [sic].
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staff. The previous year he had reported on the Telecomms staff and I disagreed strongly with his findings in one case, that of Gibby who, he wrote, “was slow in carrying out a job”. He was indeed slower than most, but was also the most thorough engineer in the Department. When repairing an equipment he not only repaired the current fault but also brought it right up to the manufacturer’s specification. My personal relationship with Dickie deteriorated rapidly, and rather than speak to me he would write me memos. In one of his many memos he “required” a technical explanation of a particular problem, and I replied to the effect that “as the conductivity between the two points was less than half a mho, this was inadequate for proper operation”. He wrote to my Chief in Nairobi complaining that I was taking the Mickey, and this brought him a rude reply. I could have referred to “a resistance greater than 2 ohms” instead of “a conductivity less than half a mho”, which would have been more helpful, but I made my point.
One major problem at Entebbe was the absence of schools for European children, and Colin and Wendy had to go to Nairobi and Kericho respectively, as boarders. This would have cost little had I been stationed in Kenya and paid the statutary [sic] Education Tax, but as I was stationed outside Kenya and had not paid the Kenya tax I had to pay the full boarding fees. I was not alone in this of course, it was a problem for all families of the E.A. High Commission living in Uganda.
However, I learned that in June 1958 Dinger Bell was finishing his four year tour at Kisumu in Kenya, and I managed a transfer for myself, handing-over Entebbe to an officer returning from a U.K. leave. At that time we had two cars, and I remember taking the Austin A70 to Kampala and selling it in a bar to a consortium of five Africans for £25, each chipping in with a hundred shillings. We travelled to Kisumu by road, our effects going by lake steamer. It was an easy day’s drive round the north-east shores of Lake Victoria, through Jinja, with its crocodiles at the source of the Nile. This was in the days before the level of the Owen Falls dam was raised by eight feet. It was refreshing to arrive at Kisumu, and we were pleased with everything we saw. We spent the first week in the hotel, then moved in to Dinger Bell’s house at 55 Mohammed Kassim Road, near the African Broadcasting Service transmitting Station.
Kisumu Airport had been established about 1932, and had, like Mbeya been a scheduled stop on the Empire Air Route of (the original) British Airways. The lake was ideal for the Empire Flying Boats and our staff pilot, Capt. Casperuthus had many stories of flying Hannibal biplanes into Kisumu. During the Second World War it was taken over by the R.A.F. and used extensively by Catalina amphibeans [sic] and Sunderland seaplanes. R.A.F. aircraft of most long and medium range types were regular visitors, together with the 3-motor Junkers 52 transports of the South African Air Force. With two excellent murrum runways and four hangars, it had seen some service one way and another.
The Control Tower was a small two storey building of 1932 vintage, the ground floor being taken up completely by the transmitting room. The first floor comprised the Control “tower”, a small office, and store. Originally there had been a second floor with a glass top for good all-round vision but this had been removed at the end of the war and replaced with a tiled roof. The second floor became the loft and housed the VDF antenna. I
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found the transmitters had been sadly neglected for many years. Two RCA 4336 types were used on R/T., a third on W/T., and a new Redifon GR49 NDB. There was also a dual transmitter which was not on the inventory and which had in fact been ‘liberated’ from a Catalina, before it joined the other two scuttled in the lake at the end of the war. This set was the best of the lot, and certainly my favourite. It was complete with a 110v ac supply of 600 Hz, not 60 and within a month I had modified an old T1190 power unit to drive it. The M/F section was put into use in place of the Redifon beacon, and the H/F section performed wonderfully on the amateur bands.
Being a ‘one-man station’ my working hours were long, 7 days a week and seldom a whole day off, but I had a workshop and bench and put my waiting-for-aircraft hours to very good use, mostly repairing domestic radios. The transmitters were giving a lot of trouble. As an example, whilst tuning a rotary inductance on a 4336, a two inch nail providing an electrical contact dropped out and had to be bodged up again. The GR49, although nearly new, was using modulator valves at the rate of a pair every two weeks due to a missing relay and associated wiring which had actually been left out at the factory during production. Fortunately there was a good old T1154 which acted as a standby for all transmitters except VHF, so I was able to take each transmitter in turn out of use for as long as was necessary whilst I overhauled them. As this progressed I was enjoying the practical work and decided to make use of a three-foot cabinet which was not on charge. (I inherited quite a lot of useful ‘junk’ at Kisumu!). At the Fisheries office on the lake shore, also on the airport, I found that a vehicle had demolished a rondaval (a 12 ft. diameter building constructed of aluminium). I volunteered the services of my crash-tender crew to clear up the mess and to take away the wreckage. A few days was spent by the crash crew in cutting the best of the aluminium into 19” panels of standard sizes, and suitable chassis. One of the ET4336 transmitters was going to be off the air for several weeks waiting for spares, and in order not to delay my overhaul programme I built a two-stage transmitter on one of the 3 1/2” panels. This was a 6V6 crystal oscillator driving an 807 to a dipole antenna. The operator at Nairobi reported our signals as very good and better than they had been for a long time. 20 Watts in place of 400, but it was the dipole antenna in place of a random length of wire which made all the difference. Within three weeks the 3’ cabinet contained 4 transmitters and was providing all services except VHF and M/F Beacon. The overhauling programme was completed, the official transmitters finally tested and then switched off. For the next 18 months we operated almost trouble-free. My monthly engineering reports to H.Q. in Nairobi were mainly negative and referred to “routine preventative maintenance only”. However, Sid Worthy, Chief Telecomms. Engineer was not fooled, and in due course he wrote and asked why my monthly electricity bill was only a quarter of what it had been for many years. Before I had plucked up enough courage to reply, Sid arrived unannounced and went direct to the Transmitter room, finding the four big transmitters switched off. In the Control Tower he saw my all-purpose cabinet, and to put it lightly, he was not amused. I suggested to Sid that we should make our own single-purpose transmitters and dispense with the old uneconomical general-purpose types. He agreed there was no good technical or financial argument against this but what would he do with his army of 50
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or so engineers? He compromised and allowed me to leave my own equipment in use provided I removed it a month before I left Kisumu.
One of our friends at Kisumu, Jimmie Sanson was a very keen constructor of model aircraft and several he had made were lost in the lake. His final model was a rather superior type with six-foot wingspan and single engine using alcohol as fuel. The rudder was radio-controlled on 27MHz. and the aircraft made some very impressive flights at the airport. On one occasion it went up to about 2000 feet before it ran out of fuel and for almost an hour Jimmie kept it turning over the airport. The aircraft was trimmed slightly nose-heavy but apart from turns, he had no other control. Eventually it was so far down-wind that it was lost to sight and last seen heading for the mountains. After a period of calm, the wind changed in the early evening and Jimmie and I were standing outside the Control Tower lamenting his sad loss when one of the crash Crew shouted “Bwana, Ndegi ndogo narudi”. His eyesight was far superior to ours, we saw nothing until the aircraft appeared over the end of the runway and actually landed, after a record flight of over three hours. Up-dating the radio control was the next stage and two months and about £200 later an eight function system was completed, giving control of the engine, elevators, ailerons and rudder. The machine could then be made to taxi out, take off and carry out aerobatics. The engine was used in short bursts and as there appeared to be a permanent thermal over the runways during the warm days, thirty minute flights were quite routine. Eventually the aircraft was lost over Lake Victoria and probably joined the three Catalinas on the bottom. Perhaps one day a Catalina will be recovered from their fresh-water grave, but the Sanson special was lost for ever..
My official work ran quite smoothly, with a little excitement occasionally. At 3 am one night, Nairobi Flight Information Centre phoned and asked me to open up the VHF and call Alitalia 541 which was three hours overdue in Nairobi, from Khartoum, and with no radio contact for four hours. I sped through town doing over 70 m.p.h. to my Control Tower, switched on and called the aircraft. There was a weak signal in reply and I managed to get a class C bearing of 270 degrees. A second transmission confirmed this and I told the operator he was probably over the Congo, but certainly well to the west of Kisumu. I told him QDM Kisumu 090, but the pilot would not agree and said he was east of Kisumu, not west, and approaching Mombassa [sic]! His signals faded right out and I telephoned F.I.C. asking them to log the QDM of 090C that I had passed to the aircraft. After half an hour, whilst F.I.C was sending frantic messages to all points west, I heard the aircraft calling Kisumu and was soon in good contact giving QDM’s, his signals gradually improving. It was just 0530, 20 minutes before first light when I heard the aircraft and sent out the boys to light-up the gooseneck flares. Then he was overhead and decided to carry on to Nairobi. This was rather disappointing, and in fact the wrong decision, his endurance being insufficient for any further diversion. I was told much later that the Captain and Navigator had a row before take-off and were not on speaking terms. The aircraft was a DC8 and the Italian crew and passengers had been very lucky indeed. The police followed me through town and I was charged with speeding, but the fine of 60 shillings was refunded later by the court when the urgency became known.
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Some weeks later Nairobi F.I.C. phoned again, about 4 am., an Air Liban DC6 from Cairo was lost and was not within the scope of Nairobi VDF. The aircraft had made a brief contact on the area cover VHF through Lodwa, and another aircraft north-east of Kisumu had heard the DC6, but of course had no idea of range or direction. This time I went through town at a more reasonable speed, opened up the radio, and called Air Liban. The crash crew was called out and the boys started dispensing paraffin and setting out the flares right away. I called Nairobi on 5680 H/F R/T to establish my station was on the ball, and every two minutes called the Lebanese Airlines aircraft. About 20 minutes later the aircraft replied to my call and I gave him a QDM of 225, and was satisfied there was no risk of it being the reciprocal. Three minutes later I measured 230 and then 235. He said his Giro compass was u/s and his magnetic compass erratic, and that he would use a standby giro, set to my figure. He turned 10 degrees to port and the QDM increased, 10 degrees to starboard and the figure decreased, so he was heading for Kisumu, and not going away from it. The bearings were given every two minutes and were reasonably steady, and after about 25 minutes the pilot said he thought he could see the coast, meaning the shores of Lake Victoria. It was still very dark but a clear night (not a contradiction of terms) and the boys hurtled out to light up the goosenecks. I told the pilot the wind was north-easterly at 15 knots, he was down wind, duty runway 06. I reminded him of the very high ground 2 miles to the north of the airport and he replied “O.K. Bud, Thanks a lot, I’ll come straight in on 24, hope youv’e [sic] got some gas, we shure [sic] ain’t [sic]”. A few minutes later he made a good landing and parked outside the 1932 wooden terminal building. The Captain of the Air Liban DC6 was an American pre-war Veteran. I had completely forgotten to tell the East African Airways agent but did so at 0545. There was no catering at the airport so he found some buses and the passengers were taken to the hotel. I was also late in phoning the police who dealt with immigration, but they hadn’t a clue how to deal with 60 international transit passengers. Similarly, it was a new experience for Customs, so both departments decided to pretend it hadn’t happened.
The Captain asked me to tell the non-English-speaking African Shell Assistant to put 3000 gallons of 100 octane into the tanks. I translated to the startled assistant “Bwana Mkubwa anataka gallon elfu tatu, pipa sabini na tano”. That was 75 drums of petrol to be pumped by hand. Finally he compromised with 400 gallons, but it was still quite a task, even with only 10 drums.
The Captain was concerned about the limited fuel and lack of a reliable compass and we double-checked that the met. conditions to Nairobi were near perfect. A scheduled DC3 of East African Airways came in at 10am. And was taking off for Nairobi at 11 am. The two pilots talked together at length and studied the map. The DC6 took-off three minutes after the Dakota and the two remained in visual contact until Nairobi was in sight. Surprisingly, the DC6 did not carry a radio compass for M/F but relied entirely on VHF, which, in East and Central Africa was quite inadequate.
I was criticised by DCA for not informing them in detail of progress, and was conscious of this at the time, but had I done so, they would have confused the issue with lots of advice. A civilian airliner without a reliable compass would be a major issue. I operated an “aerodrome
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advisory service”, not being an Air Traffic Controller. F.I.C. would have tried to control my detailed activity, but with a bit of common sense, things worked out well.
The visit of Her Majesty the Queen Mother to Kisumu went off smoothly except that two European Police Inspectors on the airport main gate refused permission for me to enter without a permit. One of my passengers, an R.A.F. Wing Commander leaned out and said he was the Queen’s Pilot, better open the gate old chap. Police had been drafted in for this event from hundreds of miles. I remember little else about the Royal Visit, or it’s main purpose. On these occasions most of the senior officials climbed in on the act, establishing their own importance.
I do remember in detail the visit of Billy Graham. My brief from the organising committee was to provide the Public Address systems. The main system had to cope with an audience of 30,000 people, with three microphones for which I borrowed a 300 watt amplifier from Twenche Overseas Trading Co. in Nairobi and used my four 100 watt loudspeakers. In addition there were six other systems for separate areas where the audience spoke only their tribal languages. Each of the six would hear Billie Graham plus one interpreter translating into the appropriate tribal language for that particular group. There were nine microphones on the platform for the evagelist [sic] and 8 interpretors [sic]. In addition the Post Office ran a special line about a mile at the end of which they connected a candlestick type of telephone with a carbon microphone and place it with my nine microphones. This relayed the proceedings to another mass meeting in Nairobi. The microphone was ineffective until I connected the P.O. line direct to the main amplifier output via a suitable transformer. Billie Graham had a very efficient team. Harley and Bonnie Richardson are two I remember, both very hard working and leaving nothing to chance. They were backed-up by representatives from most church denominations.
The following Christmas, the missionaries approached me again, could I use my loudspeakers at the Church to simulate bells on Christmas morning. An interesting proposition, and someone had written to Bradford Cathedral to scrounge a tape of the Cathedral bells. I had to edit the tape considerably, as every two a rich Yorkshire-accented voice was superimposed with “You are listening to the bells of Bradford Cathedral”. I set-up the amplifier and loudspeakers at the Church at about 7 pm. On Christmas-eve and tested the system with a record of carols. Within minutes, people began to gather and joined in. The Vicar asked if I could connect a microphone and in no time at all he was conducting an impromptu carol service with a bigger congregation than he had enjoyed for a long time, well over 1500. At 7 am next morning I relayed the bells of Bradford Cathedral, but could not resist pre-empting them with a verse of ‘Christians awake’. The loudspeakers were in constant demand and were in use every day for two weeks during H.H. the Aga Khan’s visit. Events included H.E. the Governor’s barazas, opening a ginnery and so on, all official requests from the Provincial Commissioner. I was spending so much time away from the airport that I fitted a TCS12 Transmitter and a good H/F receiver in the car to work aircraft and keep in touch with the airport. At the African hospital I fitted a receiver and 50 Watt Vortexion amplifier imported by my father, and installed 30 loudspeakers round the wards. This was followed by a similar
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job at an American mission hospital about 30 miles from Kisumu, but more ambitious with microphones, tape recorder and record player. At the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Kisumu I fitted an amplifier and loudspeakers with microphones on the Altar and pulpit. Another system was fitted at the African Community Centre in Kisumu and one way and another I was kept very busy indeed.
The transmitter in the car was used also on the 40 metre amateur band to keep in touch with my father and amateur chums in Nairobi and other parts of East Africa. On one occasion Tom Mboya took an interest in it and was quite impressed. Tom was a Luo by tribe and a party leader of the Kenya African Democratic Union, a very nice chap with an attractive wife Pamella [sic], daughter of Mr. Odede, a Kisumu lawyer. Tom wanted to buy the transmitter but for me to sell it to him would not have been wise. Later Tom was shot and killed in Nairobi.
Kisumu was fairly well populated and within 10 miles or so of town we saw very few wild animals. The two exceptions were the protected herd of impala in Kisumu township and the hippo which abounded on the lake shore. They came ashore at night to graze and I encountered them on the aerodrome several times. One rather amusing occurrence, the airport was wide in area and Africans frequently trekked across the runway and even drove their cattle over it at most inappropriate times. On several occasions I impounded the cattle after due warnings and charged the owners with trespass under section 69 of the Colonial Air Navigation Act. When I found the offenders were getting six month’s imprisonment and losing their cattle, I stopped charging them and the Police insisted upon taking over this task. Finally they agreed to drop the practice, when I told them that I doubted whether the Colonial Air Navigation Act really applied in Kenya and in any case I had invented the content of section 69. However, the runways had to be watched carefully and checked every time there was an aircraft movement.
One morning at Kisumu a uniformed Prisons Askari I had known at Nairobi Prison in 1950 came to my Control Tower and after a smart salute handed me a note saying it was from Bwana Mkubwa ya Ndegi. It was from Commander Stacey-Colles R.N. Ret’d., my former boss and previous Director of Civil Aviation. He had arrived at Kisumu Prison only two hours earlier, and was serving a three year sentence. He had been found guilty of receiving money, a refund of an airline ticket issued by the High Commission and which he did not use. At the time he was in Britain having travelled home on a complimentary ticket from Air France. The official ticket was handed in to East African Airways and a refund obtained which was paid into his bank instead of the High Commission’s account. He claimed no knowledge of this and most of us believed him. He would not prejudice his career and Navy pension in this way, someone had fixed him. The note was a list of things he wanted, which I soon assembled and took to him at Kisumu prison, where I found I knew the Prisons Officer from 1950. A very embarrassing situation. I met Stacey and gave him the radio, writing materials, money, cigarettes and cakes from Hilda, on the first of many visits. Three days later the Askari was back with a long message in code for Muriel Pardoe, his former secretary in Nairobi. I sent this off straight away on the aeronautical W/T channel, addressed to HKNCHQPA, the ICAO address which would reach Miss Pardoe from any airport in the western world. HK was Kenya, NC Nairobi City, HQ DCA
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Headquarters and PA Personal Ast. To the Director. The code was in five letter groups with a double substitution of letters, a similar system to that used during the war.
The message was decoded by Muriel who obtained whatever it was Stacey was asking for and gave it to Capt. Casperuthus who was DCA pilot of the Avro Anson. Casper gave it to the Controller at Wilson airport who passed it to a pilot about to depart for Kisumu. The pilot handed it to me at Kisumu and I delivered it – whatever it was – to Stacey in prison the same day. Three days later the radio set came back to me with the askari, not working. Two of the valves had been swapped over, and I noticed a piece of paxeline had been fitted neatly inside the bottom of the set, forming a false bottom. Under it was a note asking me if I could fit a B.F.O. into it. This was a beat frequency oscillator and Stacey could want it for only one reason, to monitor morse, probably on the Prisons channel, to see what was happening. There were two spare holes for valve holders on the chassis and plenty of space for fitting a mains power supply, vacant in this case because it was a dry-battery receiver. I fitted the B.F.O. as requested, and also another valve as a flea-power transmitter, using just a channel freq. crystal about 6.5 MHz and a tuned circuit on the anode. Maybe 50 mW output, I had no means of measuring it, but I tested the set at a range of 2 miles using 3 feet of wire for an aerial it was received at the control tower. The morse key was just a matter of touching a wire to the chassis. I returned the set to Stacey personally and explained the switching of the B.F.O. and transmitter keying. He was delighted and agreed to be very careful, taking absolutely no-one into his confidence. About six weeks later I met my former colleague the Prisons Officer in town and he told me there was some concern over the prisoners getting confidential information before he received it himself. He quoted that a week ago a prisoner asked if he could change cells and share with a particular prisoner who would be transferred to Kisumu with three others on a date a week hence. He said the four arrived that day, how could the prisoner have known a week ago? It should have been obvious, there were many ex-service personnel who were good W/T operators and the Prisons Radio on 7 MHz could be monitored by anyone, the signals being in plain language morse. I said nothing. Stacey’s frequency was monitored at my office where I had a similar tiny transmitter. It was used at a specific time of day on only two occasions for test purposes, but he found it satisfying and consoling to have a personal and totally clandestine link to the outside world. It gave him a great deal of satisfaction and from my point of view did no real harm. Stacey was a great organiser and motivator.
The African Inland Mission in Mwanza had colleagues in the Sudan [author indicates with X and page footnote that it is Kisumu not Mwanza] who visited Kisumu frequently in their Cessna aircraft. They desperately needed two transmitters in the Sudan but were not able to obtain import permits. They could however get a permit to re-import a transmitter if it had been sent out of the country for repair. I suggested to them that they should send me a piece of otherwise useless equipment which might look like a transmitter to the uninitiated and send it to me as a transmitter for repair, together with the appropriate paper work. This was done and in an antenna tuning unit they brought me, I built a 10 Watt transmitter without changing it’s outward appearance in any way. A few weeks later a second one was built and the two did a very useful job in the Sudan for about six
[KISUMU NOT MWANZA]
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months until the African Inland Mission stations there were closed, and the missionaries withdrawn. The missions’ aircraft were also licenced on that frequency and I contacted them occasionally. It is most reassuring to be able to communicate with someone in times of trouble, and plenty of folks in Africa were in that situation.
But trouble was also brewing in the Belgian Congo, just across the Lake. Six months earlier, the Belgian Government had advised the missionaries and other settlers to leave, but many were dedicated to their work and some felt they were quite indespensible [sic]. The Belgiauns [sic] had handed over the reins of Government and administration hurriedly to a totally ill-equipped and unprepared Congolese. The consequences of withdrawal by the Belgians were clearly predictable but they succumbed to political pressures from all directions. There was human slaughter on a big scale, and the only information coming out of the Congo was on the frequency of 7150 operated by Mission stations, and also shared with East African amateurs. It was in Kisumu that I received a message from a mission at an Agricultural Station which read:-
“We are being menaced by 100,000 hostile savages. We have their chief as hostage and expect annihilation within one hour. We have ammunition but no guns, please advise Kamina”.
The amateurs among the DCA staff in Nairobi, of whom Viv Slight was one, had set up a W/T link to the Belgian Coast Station at Ostend, using a communications booth in the D.C.A. Communications centre and a powerful DCA transmitter at R.A.F. Eastleigh.. I relayed the message direct to them on the aeronautical W/T channel, and Nairobi passed it straight to Ostend, with a steady flow of other messages. Ostend relayed it to Brussels who passed it to the Military where it was relayed on it’s final leg back to Africa, to the Belgian Paratroop Base at Kamina. Within 20 minutes of my receiving the message at Kisumu, the paratroopers were airborne and the Agricultural Station was liberated. Hardly had I cleared the message when I received a correction to it which advised:
“Not one hundred thousand savages, only ten thousand”
When I passed this to Nairobi, the reply was “What’s the bloody difference”
There were many such stories during the evacuation of Europeans from the Congo. Uganda was the main escape route and DCA Nairobi asked that any aircraft available and pilots who could make it, should get to Entebbe and help in the evacuation regardless of Certificates of Airworthiness and Pilot’s licences. One of my ex-pilot friends evacuated about thirty people in several trips in a Rapide aircraft. The last aircraft he had flown was a Beaufighter during the war. Some thousands were got out from the Congo, one way or another, mostly via Kampala and Kisumu. The Kenya Girls’ High School in Nairobi (known as the Boma) was turned into a Medical Reception Centre the records of which show the dreadful experiences and medical remedial action taken. Wendy reminded me that she and all the other girls who were not taking G.C.E..s were sent home a week before the term was due to end, to maked [sic] room for the refugees. At Kisumu I met many who came out by road. Two middle-aged ladies came to my Control Tower and one phoned her parents in
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the United States with a terrible story of pillage and rape. A third, more elderly, who had three American Doctorate degrees – Medicine, Divinity and a PhD. – had devoted her entire working life to helping and teaching Africans, but she said a lifetime had made only a superficial advance from their savagery.
Most of our memories of Kisumu were of happier days. There was an excellent social club but we were not members due only to the lack of time. The children made good use of the swimming pool, the lake being too dangerous, not only with its hippo and crocs. but with Bilharzia and hook worm. Hilda enjoyed her painting and drawing and we even managed to take a few photographs.
After nearly three years at Kisumu, Colin was still at the Prince of Wales School in Nairobi and with Wendy at the ‘Boma’ we were not seeing very much of either. And so a transfer was arranged and we packed up our household once again and moved to Nairobi, to a lovely house in Nairne Road, near Wendy’s school.
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[underlined] D.C.A. HEADQUARTERS [/underlined]
It was then June 1960, the Mau Mau emergency was still with us, but 84 Squadron had finished their bombing of the Aberdares which had raised the eyebrows of a few ‘hasbeens’ like myself. I had talked with the crews of the R.A.F. Lincolns some time earlier at R.A.F. Eastleigh and it all seemed very unreal to me. Perfect weather, ceiling and visibility generally unlimited and no enemy opposition from either the air or ground. Bombing over the bush was a matter of a timed run at a specific speed from a firmly identified point on the ground. Hardly a challenge for the Chaddertons and Fosters of this world and I don’t know what comprised a tour. It reminded me of O.T.U. where I saw the log book of a fellow-instructor with 40 ops. to his credit. His first tour ops were shown in the normal way, Benghazi 0340, Benghazi 0345, Benghazi 0342, Benghazi 0350, about 6 pages of Benghazi and no other target. But then, there are those among us who never bombed B.G., so the song goes. I could visualise the log books with several pages of ‘Aberdares 0125…”. Some of the Africans reckoned it was “mzuri sana” (very good) for the terrorists, the bombing just laid on a supply of fresh meat without their having to hunt for it, but there was probably more to it than that.
My place of work was the Communications Centre in the High Commission Building, on the top floor, above the Inland Revenue office. My duties were those of Telecomms. Supt. i/c a watch, responsible for the operation of the telecommunications system. We were not really concerned with aeroplanes, only messages about their movements. We had Radio Teleprinter circuits with Johannesburg, Khartoum, Der es Salaam, Entebbe, and Gan, and teleprinters on line to R.A.F. Eastleigh, Wilson Airport, Nairobi (Embakasi) and the Flight Information Centre next door. Our internal communications, that is within East Africa, were mainly by W/T links, to Iringa, Songea, Mbeya, Mwanza, Tanga, Dodoma, Arusha, Kisumu etc. Every teleprinter link had a standby W/T channel and most of these were resorted to in the early mornings, about 4 to 6 am. Brazaville [sic] and Leopoldville in the Congo were only on W/T but there was little traffic to the west and none to the east except Gan. With Gan, we operated an emergency channel with a test message every twenty minutes, to supplement the R.A.F. network if required, but they seemed to manage quite well without us. We handled about 20,000 incoming messages per day in the Tape Relay Centre, and apart from one or two all had to be relayed out again and logged. We also had three ground to Air operating booths, two of which were always manned, working aircraft, one on HF/RT and the other HF/WT. The European Radio Officers preferred the latter, where often three messages per minute were handled for long periods.
As soon as an aircraft left, say, Khartoum, a message would be sent on the Fixed Service by RTTY to the Tape Relay centre which should reach F.I.C. within a few minutes of being originated, requiring two relays, at Khartoum and Nairobi Tape Relay Centres. The system was that the pilot would not need to call Nairobi until he reached the Flight Information Region Boundry [inserted] Boundary [/inserted] at 4 degrees North, as Nairobi F.I.C. should have already received all the information by teleprinter. However, this being Africa and therefore supposedly not very efficient, the pilot would call Nairobi as soon as he could after take-off, on HF/RT. On the older propeller jobs, (the real aeroplanes), this would have been
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carried out by the Radio Officer on W/T., where just a few groups in code meant a great deal, for example:-.
ZGU de VPKKL Nairobi this is VPKKL
QTN STKM 0201Z I departed Khartoum at 0201 GMT
QAH 24 TTT QBH My height is 24,000 ft. below cloud
QRE HKNA 0718 I am estimating Nairobi Airport at 0718
QRX FIR I will call you again at the Flight Information Boundary
The Radio Officer would write those 14 groups onto a pad and his Clerk would put two copies through the hatch to the Air Traffic Controller.
The Clerk would spend most of his time putting carbon paper between the pages, it was fast going during the busy periods, but was even faster before HF/RT was introduced.
The aircraft would remain in constant contact with Khartoum on VHF until it reached 4 deg. N. when Nairobi would become responsible. Many aircraft were still using W/T at the time. There was no really conscious use of code, it was as commonplace as plain language and to a radio operator the two were synonimous, [sic] as were the many technical and other abbreviations. One example which comes to mind was at a Board of Enquiry into an accident where an aircraft had crashed into Mt. Kilimanjaro. An elderly judge asked the Ground Radio Officer if there had been any radio message, and the R/O replied “Yes, I last worked the aircraft on C.W. at 0247” “What is C.W.?” asked the Judge, and the reply “C.W. is Charlie Whisky your worship” and the Judge nearly gave up, maybe thinking whether Irish or Scotch.
Some Radio Officers preferred to transcribe the morse and speech messages straight onto a teleprinter which produced a simultaneous page copy in front of the controller, but this method was not very popular. With several aircraft calling at the same time it was easy to make a mistake but too slow to correct it on the teleprinter. The F.I.C. Controller operated the VHF himself. The whole set-up was very well thought out and we were very well equipped. Communications were our line of business and we were highly organised.
The tour of duty was rather longer in Nairobi, where one had to work for 4 years to earn 6 month’s leave, compared to only 2 1/2 years in Tanganyika. I believe there was some reduction for the Kenya coastal strip. These were the rules established when East Africa was supposed to be an unhealthy and hostile place, and most of the Europeans were Administration officials. I always felt the home leave terms were over-generous, as we also enjoyed three weeks of “local leave” each year with railway warrants provided to any part of east Africa. Where there was no railway to our particular ‘holiday resort’ or we chose to travel by car we could claim car mileage costs. Most people preferred to go on leave by sea, depending upon the time of year, possibly home on a 10 day voyage via suez, returning on a 3 week cruise via the Cape of Good Hope, on Union Castle liners. Some preferred the long way round both ways, spending as much time at sea as possible and thus economising
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on accommodation costs in the U.K. My only experience of sea travel had been the four troop-ships and Hilda claimed she couldn’t swim; we wanted to spend as much time as possible with the folks back home so we chose to travel by air every time.
Within a year of our return to Nairobi, June 1961, political unrest was well to the fore and getting worse. Alice, my step-mother, was a Senior Secretary to an African Minister in the Secretariat, and felt it was getting too dangerous to remain. Luigi and Mary had already retired to Italy and Alice was preparing to join them. Most of us were expecting the balloon to go up at any moment and people were getting jittery. We had been close to the hiatus in the Congo and the more recent mutinies of the armies of Kenya, Tanganyika and Uganda, and Europeans were beginning to leave. The weight of evidence of impending disaster was overwhelming and towards the end of June Hilda returned with the four youngest children to U.K., Colin remaining at the Prince of Wales School as a boarder. Alice and Brian returned to Italy shortly after and my father moved in with me at Nairne Road. My father and I had become very involved with emergency communications for the settlers up-country, which dominated our lives for the next few years, but this is a story unto itself and is dealt with in the chapter “Laikipia Security Network”. The mutinies referred to occurred soon after the British Forces had left Kenya, and the emergency was declared officially over. Some European Service personnel remained as advisers to the Kenya army - there was no Kenya Navy and the Kenya Air Force existed mainly on paper but with a few light aircraft. We awoke one morning to the news that the three separate armies many hundreds of miles apart, had thrown out their European officers and declared themselves independent of any authority. Within 48 hours and before they could organise themselves and cause any damage, very small forces of British troops appeared simultaneously near Nairobi, Jinja and Dar es Salaam, subdued and disarmed the lot, without any loss of life or limb. I recall a cartoon in the East African Standard, showing Jomo Kenyatta with both arms raised to paratroopers dropping from aircraft and the caption “How good it is to welcome old friends” - His arch-enemies for 10 years or so. I saw several hundred African soldiers sitting on the grass at Wilson Airport with three European soldiers guarding them with machine guns. There was a large pile of rifles and other weapons nearby, also guarded.
Life was not all traumatic, however, we had the occasional laugh. One of our officers, MacDonald, was on official leave of absence quite frequently and we understood he was masterminding a very hush-hush communications link direct to U.K. from Government House and even satellites had been mentioned furtively. This was before the days of the Sputnik when satellites were a part of science fiction. He was one of the [underlined] firt [sic] [/underlined] to retire and as he was leaving he let us into the secret. Mac. had indeed spent a great deal of time at Government House. He was a master baker and was responsible literally for the icing of the cake. He told us also that when he joined the Dept. he stated that his qualifications included a final City & Guilds Certificate. They did, he confided, as a Master Baker, but not in telecommunications.
One Sunday morning in October on duty at the Comm. Centre I found my African Supervisor was monitoring Reuter on teleprinter, and looking over his shoulder I read on the page copy that thousands of Africans armed to the teeth were surrounding the High Commission building and holding hostage the
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Europeans working inside. The report gave more detail of riots and demonstrations and gave the impression that we were really in trouble. I went out through a window and onto the flat roof of the High Commission building and gingerly looked over the parapet entitled to expect a hail of bullets. On the road was a police car with two officers watching a group of about 20 Africans, some of them supporting two banners on which was written “Wazungu Rudi Uliya” (Europeans return to Europe). That was the extent of the demonstration reported to the entire world in Reuter’s message. Had it occured [sic] in Cambridge it would not even have received a mention in the free local papers.
My tour of duty ended in December and I relinquished the house, my father moving into Plums Hotel. A nine hour flight to London, and I was home for Christmas.
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[underlined] Dec. ’61 ON LEAVE [/underlined]
Hilda and Anne came to London and I met them at Paddington. We intend to spend a week with Joan and enjoy a holiday in London, but Hilda had a rather worrying cold so we limited our stay to two days.
The next six months or so were spent on leave. With the exception of Colin who was in the R.A.F., the whole family was together in Wales at Glaslyn. My father was in Nairobi, and his regular letters referred to increasing unrest. He was working flat-out in building the ‘Watson Wonders’ and he asked me to take back 500 B7G valve holders and 150 modulation chokes
In May ’62 I said goodbye to the family and returned to Kenya. As I was unaccompanied, Sid Worthy the Chief Engineer asked me if I would housewarm for him whilst he was on his 6 months leave. This meant that he paid the rent but could just walk out without packing up his household and walk back into the same apartment on his return. There was a tendency for senior officers who were permanently based in Nairobi to try and retain the same house or apartment once they had found the right one. Rent was in fact 10% of salary and it was well worth it. My father moved in with me and together we carried on with the transmitters, having rented a workshop next to Stephen Ellis in Victoria Street. After only 3 months in the apartment I received a letter from Sid telling me he was returning immediately, could he please have his flat only a few days hence!. The following morning we were going up-country and I could see my father was a more than little depressed. He was driving like a madman down the Nairobi escarpment and I insisted that he let me do the driving. He told me he had to go to Mombassa [sic] next day, having received a telegram from Alice that she and Brian were returning on the Union Castle. This was supposed to be a surprise to him and I did not doubt that it was so, but Alice admitted later that she had in fact booked return tickets on the homeward trip. She had been totally dishonest in her statements about her intentions which had resulted in Hilda and the children staying in Wales. Our safari was cut short and we returned to Nairobi the same day, a 500 mile round trip. Alice’s return meant a complete change in plan; clearly she and my father expected to share my accommodation but with Sid’s return they had no option but to move into an hotel again. They were lucky in obtaining a couple of rooms at Plums, after only two nights in the flat. I moved into Woodlands Hotel, but applied for a housing allocation as my family had decided to return to Kenya. Hilda and the children rejoined [sic] me and we moved into a house at Likoni Lane, resuming a normal life except that it was dominated by the Laikipia network and work at the Comm. Centre. Within a year of my return I was promoted to Asst. Signals Officer and took over from Mike Harding As [sic] Officer in charge of the Communications Centre. This I had tried to avoid for a long time, not the responsibility, but the working hours. The new post meant working office hours and for the first time in my life I was working a five-day-week. On watches it had been a four-day cycle of say monday afternoon, tuesday morning and all tuesday night, then off duty until friday afternoon. The 2 1/2 days off within every 4 days had suited me very well and was a very popular roster with everyone. Office hours curtailed my visits up-country except at week-ends, but I did have every evening free. Very soon, each European Radio Supt. In charge of a watch had an African trainee assistant. Shortly afterwards one joined me. They were all supposedly bright boys from Secondary School and we delegated the routine work to them as much as possible. Their presence was resented by the old-timers among the
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wireless operators, who knew what they were doing and were very good operators, but their educational background was inadequate for the senior posts. Africanisation was the policy dictated to us and we bowed to the inevitable. I trusted most of my Africans, and there were about 180 of them working on the 4-day Watch roster at the Communications centre. Although many of them had served with the British Army both during and after the war, I could not completely lose sight of the fact that some had taken part in the Lare massacre when an African village was set ablaze and almost everyone slaughtered as they tried to escape. The majority of my staff were from the three main problem tribes, the Kikuyu, Meru and Embu, and a few of the Luo tribe from Nyanza.
My father’s farm had been abandoned long ago. It was not possible to obtain reliable labour during the Emergency, and the whole of the European settled areas was to be handed over to the Africans. There were already very few farmers left in the Trans-Nzoia and the Eldoret areas, the latter being mainly from South Africa. The Laikipia farmers were the last to hold out, except perhaps for the bigger ranches near Athi River.
Our next home leave was in June 1964 and the story of my activity over the three years leading up to it is synonymous with that of the Laikipia Security Network. The network seemed to priority over everything, but lives were at stake. Occasionally Hilda and the Children would go up-country with me, and one memorable week-end was spent with Tony Dyer and Family at their lovely home facing Mount Kenya. One afternoon Tony asked the children if they would like to go to a polo match and they took off in Tony’s Cessna from their own front door, landing at the side of the pitch. One of Tony’s sons was killed some months later whilst taking a gun out of the back of his vehicle. It was never discovered how the gun came to be loaded and with the safety catch off. Hilda and the children stayed too at the farm of Dr. Anne Spoerry, at Ol Kalau. Anne’s loo was a traditional type in the bushes down the garden, very comfortable and lined with bookshelves, full of the Lancet and other medical journals. Anne was a wonderful character. Only once did we go to the coast for a holiday, and this was two weeks spent at Likoni, near Mombassa [sic]. Unfortunately we chose to go in the rainy season but it was a welcome break. We took Chippy, our cockerel, and it followed us around everywhere, afraid of absolutely nothing. Chippy returned home one day in Nairobi with a broken beak and was unable to peck for food. Fortunately Jean and Dick Chalcroft came to stay overnight with us and Dick fitted a new lower section to the beak with the plastic resin we used in making dipole aerials.. It took an hour to cure, or set, and Jean and Dick held Chippy during that period, and again whilst they filed down the surplus plastic and polished the result. Chippy was ravenous and began to feed straight away, but was very aggressive towards humans, except for Jean and Dick, who took him back to their farm at Molo. I saw Chippy several times after that at the farm, lording it over the hens, and not another cockerel in sight.
One day I bought a petrol/paraffin engine-driven alternator and a bank of batteries, a complete 32 volt lighting set in fact, too good to miss for £25 in Nairobi. The dealer said the engine wouldn’t start although it had just been thoroughly overhauled. I knew that Jean and Dick were without power on their farm although their house was wired for a 32 volt DC system such as this. I knew too of Jean’s prowess with anything mechanical and I took the whole lot straight up to the farm at Molo. At 10pm. on the Saturday Jean started stripping down the engine whilst I was linking together the 26 alkaline cells
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and checking the house wiring connected to my car battery. Jean, assisted by Dick slogged on until 5am. in the light of an Alladin lamp, but she had discovered the trouble long before that. The timing was exactly 180 degrees out of phase. At 5am, just before dawn, the batteries being flat, Jean cranked the engine which roared into life, literally, we were deficient of a silencer for the exhaust. The batteries were taking a charge and we changed from petrol to paraffin and switched on a few lights in the house. The following evening the Chalcrofts were very proud of their lighting system. That sort of effort and co-operation did give one a great deal of satisfaction.
My recollections of work in D.C.A. over that period are very few.
We seldom talked of the war, but in the middle of one night I somehow got chatting to the F.I.C. Controller, Sqdn Ldr. Anderson DFC & Bar, who had also been in 5 Group on Lancasters. Andy said we were sometimes like a lot of sheep, he recalled one night having reached his ETA, all was very quiet except that markers had been dropped 20 miles to the south. Within minutes bombs were crashing down so Andie turned south for five minutes and joined in. Next day it was found that the target was 20 miles north of where most of the bombing had taken place. My reply was just “Politz”, we had done exactly the same thing, followed the flock. We talked together of flying during the war, several times, but my memories of the actual events are more vivid now, after 45 years, than they were 25 years ago. Perhaps because there was not a great deal in East Africa to remind me of it, compared to today, living 4 miles from Wyton on the approach to Alconbury. To see the Lancaster of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight fly over gives me rather more than a lump in my throat at times. Pathfinder House is not what it was with Don Bennet, either, it is now the place where I pay my rates, but they at least have a picture of a Lancaster on the wall near the Cashier’s office. A couple of years ago I asked one of the cashiers why it was called Pathfinder House, she had no idea, I asked what the aeroplane was and the answer was the same. I let the matter drop.
I had taken over the comm. Centre from Mike Harding who had retired prematurely, and his immediate predecessor had been “Bing” Crosby, ex Royal Signals. Bing was in Headquarters just along the corridor and came into my office every day to inspect an object pickled in a sealed jar which he had left on the shelf when he was promoted. Although he urged us to take good care of it, he used to look at it and say to it “You useless ruddy thing”, or words to that effect. Finally, on retirement, he came and collected it and let us into the secret, with the parting words “Oh don’t worry, the other one’s fine, you only need one you know”.
Alice and my father had left in May for Italy, to stay with Mary and Luigi. My own feelings were that he should have stayed in Kenya, possibly up country with Jean or with one of his many other friends among the Settlers. He had worked unceasingly on the network for over 4 years, but Alice insisted upon their return to Europe. In June ’64 it was time for home leave again. We were reluctant this time because there was so much happening up country and we expected it to be our final tour in East Africa together, unless I returned and carried on with communications on a commercial basis. This was still an option, communications had kept me very busy and with lots of ‘job satisfaction’, but it was DCA who had paid my salary. I still had a family to support, and there was a great deal of uncertainty in Kenya. And so it was we flew to London yet again, and joined Hilda’s Mum at Glaslyn.
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[underlined] ON LEAVE June 1964 [/underlined]
Before leaving for Wales we bought a second-hand Vanguard from a dealer in Putney which was to prove very useful in the next few months. At the end of our leave it was sold to the local Policeman for the same price.
A month or two before we returned, the house next to Aunt Doll had become vacant and was put on the market for £500. It was small and in shocking state, but a real snip so we bought it. Five months was spent in refurbishing it, building a bathroom, kitchen, replastering, new fireplace, rewiring etc. I remember John mixing at least a ton of concrete manually, he was a tremendous help. Electricity at the house had not been used for many years, and what little wiring remained, mostly twin flex, we ripped out. Electrical contractors quoted £900 to rewire, which was totally ridiculous, and finally John and I did it in one day, having spent about £50 on materials through an advert in Exchange & Mart. We tried to buy the field - or even part of it - at the back - of the house, but our lawyer said it was quite impossible to find out who owned the land. Many years later it transpired that it had in fact been owned for at least a hundred years by members of his own family.
Visits were paid to my other in Barnoldswick and to Joan and Ken in London, but the greater part of my leave was spent on the ‘new house’.
At the end of April Hilda’s Mum moved into her new home and made comfortable. From the house there was a wonderful view of the mountain separating the Neath and Rhonda valleys, with the river within 25 yards in the foreground. Perhaps it is only fair to mention the road between the house and river, but when the bypass was built a few years later this road carried little traffic.
In November ’64 I returned to Kenya unaccompanied, and being so, moved into Woodlands Hotel. The following day I was in touch with Laikipia and also back at work. I relieved Mike Harding as Asst. Signals Officer in Headquarters, Deputy to ‘Spud’ Murphy who was Telecommunications Officer (Operations). The job was just a matter of dealing with the steady flow of paper-work. Every piece of paper coming in was registered in Central Registry and filed by the Clerk. If he couldn’t decide which file to put it, he would open a new one. The file was then delivered - and booked out - to the officer thought to be the one who should deal with it. The officer would either add his comments as a minute and pass on the file to someone he thought might not return it to him, or if he felt he was authorised to make a decision, draft a letter for his immediate superior. Very occasionally, on an external matter he might even sign the letter “for the Director of Civil Aviation”. I was expected to finalise all matters concerning the operational aspect of the Telecommunications side of DCA, including all staff problems, their examinations and promotions.
Europeans were leaving the Directorate almost every week and being replaced by Africans. Those with African proteges training to take over the senior posts were most vulnerable. The Africans thought it was easy to sit back and authorise someone to go on leave, or to promote or reprimand another. The newcomers could read the many returns and forms but whereas a European officer could do every job subordinate to his own, the assistant had neither the experience, qualifications nor ability to do those jobs. In some cases the African was promoted and his former boss remained as his assistant. It was
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obvious who did the actual work. I found the work uninteresting, mainly it seemed just a matter of going through the motions and staying out of trouble by being non-committal, which was completely out of character. My main thoughts were with the 5190 Network, something that really mattered.
Sqdn. Ldr. Anderson was still with us and when he went on two week’s leave to the coast he asked me to sleep at his house, which made a welcome change from staying at the hotel. At about 3am on the third night there was a hullabaloo outside and a pounding on the door. “Police, open up”. I opened up, 9mm. Mauser ready, to be greeted by an African Police Inspector and about 15 Askari with enough weaponry to start a rebellion. Andy had told the Police he would be away for two weeks and would they please keep an eye on the house? I told them he had asked me to sleep there but they were not convinced. All my documents were at the hotel and eventually the Inspector ‘phoned the Acting Director of Civil Aviation at his house - Dickie Dixon, my old antagonist from Entebbe. Dickie was not amused, he never was, with me, but the Inspector was satisfied. A few nights later, about 10pm. I was lying on the bed reading, the house in darkness except for a small reading lamp. I heard footsteps on the gravel outside and quickly extinguished the light. I heard a key turning in the lock of the pateo [sic] door. By this time I was off the bed and standing at the bedroom door, left hand on the hall light switch and my Mauser in the right, cocked and with the safety-catch off. When the outside door opened I switched on the light and was startled to identify the intruder as Jimmie Sanson, whom I had not seen since we were in Kisumu. If he had been carrying a gun I might have blown his head off before it became unrecognisable. Andy had done it again, asking Jimmie also to keep an eye on the house. That night my car had been in Andy’s garage. On the following nights I left the car in full view outside, and with the a few lights in the house switched on.
For several years I had held one of the very few Flight Radio Officer Licences in the Department and frequently flew as Radio Officer first on the Anson VPKKK and later on its replacement, the Heron. On my last trip on the Heron we did a “tour of inspection” with visiting officials from ICAO in Montreal. Whilst supposedly inspecting the runways here and the Met. Station there, a V.O.R., D.M.E. and other aids to Aviators, in reality we enjoyed a visit to Zanzibar, flew around inside the Ngoro-ngoro crater, an extinct volcano well stocked with wild life, witnessed a specially-staged lion kill in Tsavo West National Park, and entered into the spirit of a very expensive ‘Cook’s Tour’. A few weeks later I did another tour of airports, inspecting the Telecomm. aspect and also giving morse tests to operators who were otherwise already qualified for promotion. I knew most of the staff and the stations also. 16 years previously I had first visited Iringa, which was then run by ‘Blossom’, Mrs. Brown, the only lady Radio Officer in DCA. Blossom was an ex-WREN officer who had specialised during the war in Japanese morse. I think she told me there were about 120 characters in their morse alphabet, and she used to transcribe in Jap. characters for hours on end. It was someone else’s job to translate them into English. Blossom had left some years previously. The morse tests were interesting, first the candidate sent for 10 minutes at 25 w.p.m. of 5-letter and figure groups, which was recorded on tape. The second test was 10 minutes of plain language, and the third receiving for 10 minutes of automatic morse. The fourth test was for the candidate to receive the morse recorded in the first two tests, without telling them of it’s origin. Many complained that the
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fourth test was unfair, the morse being very poor and difficult to read. Some found it difficult to believe the poor morse was their own! In general, the morse was, in fact, very good, most of the old-timers having been British Army trained, during the war.
Soon after the invasion of Zanzibar I flew there in the DCA Anson piloted by Capt. Casperuthus. The two Air Traffic Controllers had been deported to Mombassa [sic] and almost all the Telecomms. equipment was faulty. The teleprinter on line to Dar es Salaam still worked, however, and this was taken over by an African from Tanganyika. Zanzibar and Tanganyika became known as Tanzania and for the very first time customs and immigration formalities were introduced between the two. I recall paying customs duty in Dar es Salaam on 200 cigarettes bought in Zanzibar, although the price was the same in both places, and duty had been paid already to the same authority, the new government of Tanzania. There was no rational explanation to some of the politics in East Africa. Rumours were rife that a huge Russian biplane bomber made secret trips at night without contacting DCA, the aviation authority, and the machine was said to be in a particular hangar. We were intrigued by this and taxied very close to the hangar, a ‘deliberate mistake’, and took photographs of the aircraft. It was a biplane about three times the wingspan of a Tiger Moth, but we were not able to find anyone who had actually seen it airborne.
By May 1965 I was recovering transmitters from Settlers who were leaving the country, and these sets were more than meeting the demand for new ones. I felt that by the end of the year there would be very few Europeans left, and in that atmosphere of intense anti-climax I gave 6 months notice of my retirement. The leave earned would take me to just over my 44th. birthday when compensation for loss of office would be at its peak. Looking at this in more detail, compensation would have been reduced by £2,000 per year of delay. There was really little choice but to go.
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[underlined] JOB HUNTING [/underlined]
I returned home finally on the 11th. of November 1965 and joined Hilda and the family at Glaslyn, except for Colin who was in the R.A.F. in Aden. My father and Alice were settled in Voghera in Northern Italy. There was plenty of time to look for a job, as I was on full pay for about six months and could not really afford to start work until April. Had I started before that, it would have meant paying income tax at the U.K. rate for the previous year on my world income, so I was advised, probably wrongly.
I wrote many letters, one offering my services to O’Dorian of Redeffusion [sic]. They were at that time considering establishing a Radio Relay system in the African areas of Nairobi. Other firms were also interested and the City Council was monitoring a pilot scheme which I.A.L. had fitted about a year previously. The pilot scheme had been put out to tender and my father had submitted a bid to provide for a four-program system. The contract went to I.A.L. on the grounds that they had shown confidence in Kenya by being established there for many years and were a reputable firm. My father was invited to comment and said I.A.L.’s presence was nothing to do with confidence, they were wholly-owned by B.O.A.C. and were there to do aircraft radio maintenance for E.A. Airways also owned by B.O.A.C. As for being a reputable company, so are Marks and Spencers but like I.A.L. they have no experience in Radio Relay. I had seen the pilot scheme at Kaloleni. Each house had a loudspeaker on the wall with volume control, and the system was wired in D8 cable and flex, with no protective devices. Reception was poor and quality was that of a typical bus station P.A. system. I gave O’dorian [sic] a detailed report of what I thought could be achieved in Nairobi and also the whole of Kenya, together with the engineering detail, resources required, budgets etc. The report was mainly the result of my father’s efforts of two years previously, updated. I included my report of I.A.L.’s one programme pilot scheme the performance of which could induce the Council to reach only one conclusion about Radio Relay. One of not to bother with it. Transistor radios were then on the market at 40 shillings giving good world-wide reception, Moscow being a necessity. I mentioned too the near to impossibility of collecting payment from individual subscribers. Payment would have to be made by the authorities. O’Dorian thanked me for my interest and appreciated the report and said he would be in touch. About a month later he wrote again and said they had decided not to pursue any interest in Kenya.
I also tried West London Telefusion who I knew at working level in 1947, and had an interview in Blackpool with their M.D., and Personnel Manager, for a new post as Development Manager in Taunton, Somerset. The job was to establish a cable T.V. system. I was offered the job after a prolonged interview and at a good salary. I accepted there and then and was advised to start looking for a house around Taunton. Only the starting date was uncertain, but they agreed to confirm the appointment in writing and provide a detailed Terms of Reference. I was very surprised indeed a few weeks later when a letter from Mr Wilkinson said he was very sorry but had decided not to proceed with the Taunton project and all development was under review. I realised that cable TV was popular in fringe areas but more and more repeaters were being provided and the need for cable was reducing all the time. I am writing this in 1993 and the concept of cable TV has developed from the 1966 “amplified aerial” to a single coaxial cable providing over 30 T.V. channels, radio and telephone, and
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most recently, scanned T.V. Security Systems. The technological advances in Relay since its inception in my father’s time, around 1928 have meant many fresh starts for the industry.
I had an interview with Aero Electronics at Crawley – to whom I had a letter of introduction, and was offered the job of Development Engineer & Manager! I felt this was aiming rather high. The interview took place in a large country house, alongside which was a fairly new factory with lots of activity, and a sketch of which appeared on Aero Electronics letter heading. I later found that the factory had no connection with Aero Electronics, which was in fact a one-man show. The job would have been responding to overseas enquiries received mainly via the Board of Trade, designing a system and providing equipment, winding up with a quotation. On the face of it a very interesting prospect, but with no back-up of any sort, and relying upon other firms’ equipment. I felt it to be somewhat dicey, particularly when I was asked if I could type! I had to say it was a job for a team, not one man.
From Crawley I went to see G.E.C. at Coventry for interview as a “Production Team Leader”. The job turned out to be the leader of a team of about 12 assemblers and wiremen constructing telephone exchanges – one at a time. I was shown one being assembled and spent an hour with the Team Leader on one particular exchange which comprised thirty 7’ racks of relay panels, counters uniselectors, jack fields etc. As far as I could see it was just a matter of ensuring each item was in the right place and wired-in correctly. Turning down the job was the right decission [sic] for the wrong reason. There seemed to be thousands of people around all moving at the same time, and the environment depressed me. Although I was only vaguely aware of it at the time, that type of system would be giving way to electronic exchanges within a year or two.
Next stop was Redifon in Wandsworth, who were advertising for Test and Installation engineers. The job was described accurately but was basically testing H/F and M/F equipment at the end of the production line, with very occasional trips into the field on installation and commissioning work. There was great competition for the field work. I was offered the job but the Personnel manager told me to think very carefully, Wandsworth was a terrible place to live in. I was given two weeks to think it over, and turned down the offer. I asked the Personnel Manager what happened to the job I was offered in 1957. The requirement was for an engineer who had a PMG1 licence to operate on ships and an MCA Flight Radio Officers Licence to operate on aircraft. He was to take equipment to sea and into the air to ensure there were no problems, and if there were, to resolve them. That job really appealed to me and could very well have become what I cared to make it. Maybe. He looked up my file and told me the vacancy was not filled and the post was withdrawn.
I saw a job advertised for a Telecommunications Engineer for Gambia, 18 month tour, £3500 per year + 25% gratuity, and applied for it. A week later I was called for interview. I didn’t think there was the slightest chance of this happening, having applied out of interest and an expences [sic] paid trip to London. The interview went well and soon after my return to Wales a letter arrived asking me to confirm my acceptance on a salary of £2500. I was in a quandry [sic], I didn’t really want to go to Zambia, but wrote to the Crown Agents and pointed out the discrepancy between the advert of £3500 and offer of £2500.
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They regretted their mistake in the advert, and on those grounds I was able to decline
I applied for an advertised post of Signals Officer at the Ministry of Aviation’s Communications Centre at Croydon for which my D.C.A. experience fitted me well. The interview went off very well and I found that in some respects E. Africa was more up to-date than was the practice at Croydon. At the end of the interview they said they would write to me. About a week later their letter arrived and advised that I had not been selected but only because a more senior post would shortly become available and I was already short-listed for it. Good news indeed, but having heard nothing further after four months by which time we had moved house to Cambridge, I wrote to them. In their reply I was told that the letter offering me the job had been returned to them marked “Gone away”. As Communications Officer in charge at Croydon life would have been rather different.
Becoming more and more disillusioned with U.K. I went to see the Overseas Services Resettlement Bureau at Eland House, Victoria. I saw a Mr. Williams who was ex-Malaysia P.& T and we chatted for a while about the prospects of settling down to a job in the U.K. I had to agree that after 18 years in East Africa I was not impressed with what I saw in Britain nor with the people who occupied it, it was a vastly different place to the one I had left in 1948. He was quite right in saying that I first had to decide whether I wanted to stay and if so to make the best of it. What job did I want? I told him I had hoped to join Pye Telecomm’s technical sales dept. I knew Pye aeronautical equipment and felt I could fit in there, but had written and been advised there were no vacancies. “Did I still want the job?”. Having replied yes please he picked up the phone, and said “get me Ernie Munns at Pye”. Moments later he greeted someone in what I assumed was Malay, then switched to English “look Ernie, I’ve another bloody Colonial here, thinks Pye’s the ultimate., When can you see him?” We agreed 2pm the following day at Pye Telecommunications, Newmarket Rd., Cambridge. More words in Malay between them and he wished me luck.
I liked the friendly environment at Pye and was interviewed by Ernie Munns, head of Systems Planning Dept. and his deputy, Cyril Foster. The interview was constantly interrupted by the telephone and people barging in for instant decisisons [sic]. I recall Ernie asking whether I would be prepared to write a paper for a semi-technical customer on the relative merits of conventional VHF links and Tropospheric scatter and I said “yes”! Fortunately the phone rang and both interviewers were involved, which gave me a few minutes to think about it. I had heard of Tropo-scatter, but that was about all. I awoke to the question of “how would you go about it?” I replied that I would read up the subject in the Pye library. It must have been written up many times, I would study it and probably be able to quote a learned authority. I agreed that I didn’t know all the answers, and Ernie said “Thank god for that, one or two around here think they do”. I was told that my application was opportune, if I joined them I would be in the Aeronautical team headed by Cyril, which was currently preparing a factory order for equipment to re-equip 22 airports and several other sites in Iran, plus a lot of other orders for aviation equipment. Basically the job was block-planning of systems to meet the customers’ operational requirement, prepare quotations, to engineer the job in detail and to project manage the order to its conclusion. This was the sort of job offered by
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Aero Electronics but at Pye there was full backing from experts in all fields. The second part of the interview was with Cyril and the Personnel manager who said he would write to me with the result. The letter arrived a few days later offering me the post at £1250 per year and to start preferably on the first of April. This was gladly accepted. Hilda and I went to Cambridge and after a week’s run around by Estate Agents we found a nice 4-bedroomed house at 14 Greystoke Rd. near Cherry Hinton which was to be ready by the end of March.
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[underlined] AT PYE TELECOMMUNICATIONS [/underlined]
The first two years at Pye were spent as a Project Engineer in Systems Planning Dept, not in the Aviation team as hoped, but in Duncan Kerr’s team doing general systems. Also in the team were Jim Bucknell, Ian Douglas, and Mike Bavistock who had also joined Pye on April first. Duncan was away most of the time drumming up contracts with the Scottish Police forces but on our first day Mike and I did meet him briefly and he gave us two pink files. ‘Take one each’ said Duncan. ‘Turkey 10th Slice is now an order and needs a flimsy, and the Libya quote needs revalidating’. Mike and I hadn’t a clue on Pye methods and we decided to work together, providing a mutual back-up. It quickly transpired that we had something in common, Mike had been in the Gambia for three tours whilst I was in East Africa. I told him of my experience with the Crown Agents for the Gambia job and he had seen the advert for what had in fact been his post. He was not amused when he saw his £2500 a year job advertised with a salary of £3500.
Of the 36 people in the department, no-one was particularly helpful, in retrospect mainly because they were themselves under great pressure and had problems of their own. I saw the Chief Clerk, - later known as the Admin Group Leader – and said ‘Duncan wants me to do a flimsy, what’s a flimsy?’ He was most unhelpful although he was responsible for the admin. aspect of many hundreds of them. His philosophy was that he wasn’t going to help anyone who was on a bigger salary than his own. I had to go to Export Sales to find out what a flimsy looked like. It turned out to be an all-singing and dancing instruction to every dept. detailing all the action required in designing, manufacturing inspecting packing shipping and invoicing and even installation of a customer’s order. All the information available was entered on the forms and circulated around the departments. The initial circulation was programmed to take six weeks. The system was designed in detail and all the engineering information added with ammendments. [sic] Eventually there were so many ammendments [sic] I had to completely rewrite the flimsy after six weeks, and finally there was an issue 4. The job was eventually engineered by Dickie Wainwright – ex East African P.& T., following a departmental re-organisation, and I picked it up again at the delivery stage having moved to the Systems Installation Dept.
My performance on my first task in Pye was not at all brilliant, and about 18 months later when the installation was finished I issued a memo entitled “Lessons Learned on Turkey 10th Slice”. I started with saying that a week of training in Pye methods would have saved a great deal of cost and misunderstanding and went on to discuss the contract itself. The contract stated that ‘The Turkish Version of the contract shall be deemed to be the official version’, and it seemed there were many anomalies all to the advantage of the Turks, in particular to our agent, a chap called Avidor, who in fact translated the Turkish contract into English!. The system originally quoted was for a microwave chain the length of Turkey with a dozen or so links carrying teleprinter and telephones. We were awarded only the links, the radio parts of which were main and standby. One rediculous [sic] requirement in the Turkish version was that they wanted the main link in one place and the standby in another. We were providing main and standby transmitters etc within a link, not a completely seperate [sic] standby link. The whole thing was quite rediculous, [sic] no
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wonder it was given to one of the new boys and everyone else steered clear. The title of the contract simply meant that it was the 10th slice – or part – of a multi-million dollar allocation of N.A.T.O. funds. I don’t know how many slices there were, but one was enough for us.
With Mike’s first job, revalidating a quotation might on the face of it seem more straight-forward. It is just a matter of extending the date on which the offer expires, or is it?! The engineers who did the quotation with many versions over a period of 10 years, and the half dozen salesmen involved over different periods had all either left or moved on somewhere. Now they were all out of picture, it was Mike’s job, and he was on his own. Revalidation implied that he must thoroughly understand the customer requirement. The quotation comprised 18 volumes of A4 size, each 2” thick, plus a mountain of minutes of meetings and correspondance [sic] over a period of 10 years. Undertakings made in good faith years ago could well be quite impossible to honour, requiring endless variations to the tender document. Every change required approval from others in Pye. Every aspect had to be checked. Equipment from other manufacturers was included and confirmation of availability and price had to be obtained, every move documented and absolutely every aspect of the tender was Mike’s direct responsibility. When I think back to those days, I remember how every letter and memo originated had to be written out in longhand for the team’s typist to action. I understand the office system did not change in the next 25 years although there is much less of it. Mike asked me to sit in at his very first meeting on this project, the main purpose of which was to put him in the picture and answer any queries he might have. One item in the quote was ‘2 years Bavister £2000’ What’s that asks Mike. The finance dept man said it’s an accountancy term, just leave it in but add 10%. Two others had totally different ideas and finally a fellow woke up and said “I’m Bavister, I’m supposed to go out there for two years to help the customer”. There followed a discussion on the price of whether it was 2 or should be 20 thousand and which department accepted the responsibility. Mike asked why we are using scramblers bought from Redifon at £1200 each when we can make them. It turned out they were actually ours, produced in Cambridge for T.M.C. who sold them to Redifon who in turn mounted them on a panel with their label, and sold them back to Pye at about 10 times the price.
The Libya communication system itself was very good, a policeman on a camel with a hand-held portable could talk through a local Base station and several UHF links and an HF SSB link to his HQ 3000 miles away if required. Mike Bavistock saw the project through two revalidations and the tender’s final acceptance, and the production stage, over a period of 4 years. He went on to do many other big projects before deciding to resign and return to Africa to try and regain his sanity.
When I joined the department, one half prepared quotations and everything else with the exception of the detailed engineering. The other half were responsible for engineering and nothing else. The system was sound, one person should not have to divert his thinking from conditions of sale to pricing to shipping to the specific connections on a 131 way socket. After a while the system was changed whereby one man did the lot, and with a dozen or more projects on hand at any one time constant re-orientation was getting me down and I asked for a transfer to Systems Installation Dept. Meanwhile I pressed on
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doing many quotations and made sure I did not get involved with detailed engineering design or anything else which could delay my transfer. In fact I feigned some excentricity [sic] and got away with it. The pressure however was high and there was a great deal of jeolousy [sic] and backbiting in the department.
At one stage I did a couple of Fireman’s callout schemes and these were done on the electric typewriter by a typist who normally did only the conditions of sale. The only difference was in the number of base stations and portables, and the finance. Together using the same basic tape we could rattle off a quotation in half an hour. We made about 20 spare copies and sent them to Home salesmen who were not already in the know, to help them secure orders from their local fire services. This was very rewarding to Pye.
One monday [sic] morning I was given the job of providing a quotation to meet a requirement for the Yugoslavian police, to be ready by 4 pm on friday [sic] . It was a big job and I would have three chaps to assist me but I was not to make a start until the go-ahead was received from International Marketing Dept. At 2.15 pm I was told to forget it, it would not be possible to complete it in time. On Wednesday at 10 am I was told the job was on and vital, top priority. Drop everything and get on wth [sic] it. I would not have any assistants and would have to complete it myself. So one man had two days and two nights to do a job which was too much for 4 men in 5 days and 4 nights. I worked almost non-stop, all day and all night, mostly at home, and on the thursday [sic] I asked for a typist to be available for friday [sic] night. By 5 pm on friday [sic] the document was ready for typing, a very long technical description and equipment schedules. The prices had not been agreed with the finance dept, so I used standard Export price with 15% mark-up for luck. No signatures of approval were obtained from Snr. Management although a quote for over £100,000 needed signatures from three Directors and finally the Company Secretary. I did ‘phone Bert Ship who was responsible for determining delivery time and I put 5 months instead of his 9. The typist did not materialise, and as a last resort I took an office typewriter to my daughter Wendy’s home and she typed it overnight.
At 7 am on the saturday [sic] I assembled a batch of relavant [sic] publicity material and technical leaflets, and made 10 copies of the whole document, four of which I signed and gave to the Salesman at 9 am. He translated the Technical Description and schedules into Italian on his way to London Airport by road and to Milan by air. It was retyped into Italian on the Sunday and presented to the client in Rome on the Monday [sic] , by Pye Italy. A month later the Salesman told me we had got the job and thanked me, but there was no other official recognition. I was amused to have signed it myself, having cut through all authorities and proceedures. [sic] One copy of the file was circulated around for approvals by Mike Loose and this was completed a few days before we got the contract. Not all jobs were like that.
One particular quotation was done for Frank Mills, a salesman responsible for dealing with government departments in Wales. I had first known Frank when he was Provincial Police Signals Officer at Mwanza in Tanganyika when I was in charge of the airport. Prior to that he had been a Radio Officer with D.C.A. in East Africa. Frank had told me of his lucky escape when he went to Musoma on a routine inspection. An african [sic] sold him a live snake in a sack for a shilling and Frank decided its skin would make a good present. An 8 foot python for a shilling. First the python had to be killed and whilst still in the sack was placed in an empty 40 gallon storage drum. A pipe was connected between his
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landrover [sic] exhaust and the drum, and the engine left running. After an hour the python was removed and made ready for skinning, but first let’s take a few photographs. Off came Frank’s bush jacket, and the python wound round his chest and neck, with Frank gripping the snake’s head and looking it square in the eyes. The photos were taken and the snake lowered to the ground. It was sweaty work and Frank sat on the back of the landrover [sic] drinking a cool beer. After a few minutes the python slid away into the bush. However, Frank had arranged to collect the quotation at 1.30 pm. and as the hour approached it was ready in triplicate except for the three front labels. All the typists and secretaries were enjoying their lunch break, most of them sitting at their desks knitting or reading. Not one of them would type the labels, so I used a spare manual machine and typed them myself. It was their right to stop work between 1 and 2 and they would excercise [sic] that right regardless of everything else. Most of them didn’t speak to me for weeks. This childish attitude was only too prevalant [sic] throughout the organisation and was completely foreign to me. However, Frank collected his quotation and we had a short chat about old times. Tragically he was killed in a road accident next day whilst on the way to see his customer with the quotation.
After my 2 years or so in Systems Planning, Bill Bainbridge one of the two Field Controllers in Systems resigned to start his own business, Cambridge Towers, and I was fortunate in succeeding him. At the same time Harry Langley Head of Systems Installation moved into Sales and D.A.D. Smith took over as Manager of Systems Installation Dept., (S.I.D.). I got on very well with Harry Langley, he had been with the Kenya Police as a Radio technician seconded from the Home Office. Howard (Jimmie) James was the other Field Controller and between us we managed all S.I.D. projects, mainly installing and commissioning systems in the field, about 60% being overseas. In theory we had a Project Engineer heading each Installation team but as each was involved in several jobs at any one time it was never possible just to sit back and let the P.E. get on with it. He was likely to be abroad when most required.
[underlined] IRAN [/underlined]
One of the first jobs allocated to me in S.I.D. was the Iranian Airports project, Pye being a member of a consortium with Marconi, C & S Antennas, Redifon, G.E.C. and S.T.C. All came together as the Irano-British Airports Consortium to re-equip the major airports and aviation facilities in Iran. This was the project mentioned to me at my interview when applying to join Pye and Cyril Foster and Allan Breeze had devoted their last two years entirely to it, and much of 5 years before that. Allan in fact eventually went to Iran to commission the F.I.C. console. I had a great respect for him when we went to Iran together and whilst I was struggling along in French he was talking in Farsi with the hotel staff. He had been quietly studying it in Cambridge and could even read it, which was a tremendous achievement.
I became suspicious when I received a memo from D.A.D. Smith the Departmental Manager enclosing a change-note and asking me to confirm that we could still carry out our installation committment [sic] in Iran for the £85,700 he had quoted. A change-note was a notification from a Lab. making a minor change in the design or manufacture of a piece of equipment. In this case it refered [sic] to a resistor which would make no difference to anything except the parts list.
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[photograph of the head and shoulders of a man]
[Arabic writing]
[stamp]
[Arabic writing] G. Watson [Arabic writing]
[signature]
[Arabic writing] JSB/100/14/6/T [Arabic writing]
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Not “will the change-note make any difference?” His subtle phraseology was making me responsible for the whole installation amount, not just a possible minor differe [deleted r [/deleted] nce. His figure was derived by taking 5% of the factory transfer price of the equipment which had no real relationship to the cost of fitting it, and was totally unrealistic.
I studied the draft contract and drew up an installation plan, and after a few days replied to my manager that “if the work can be carried out in the 12 month time scale as in the contract my estimate of costs is not £87500 but £250,000. I believed the work would take at least 5 years, it would not be possible to co-ordinate the many scores of officials with their different loyalties and the organisations involved. The final cost could very well be double the £250K. The end customer was the Iranian Director General of Civil Aviation, represented by Aerodrome Development Consultants Ltd., (A.D.C.) apparently a private firm, but wholly-owned by the then British Board of Trade and staffed by their officials. They were more than loyal to their Iranian masters.
After a great deal of arguement [sic] with A.D.C. and other Consortium members about methods, division of responsibilies [sic] , consequential losses and costs etc., the quotation was accepted including my price of £250K, and the contract signed. I was to live with that contract for exactly 10 years and have been sorely tempted many times to record the frustrations, stupidities and almost impossible business of working with the Iranians whilst retaining any degree of sanity.
It was the custom in Pye at the time, and a very good one, that before work was started on a major quotation, the comments of people with recent similar experience were sought as to its desireability, [sic] and with the question “Do we want the job?”. The file, an informal one came to me and in answer to that question I wrote in a light-hearted moment, “pas avec un barge pole.” I didn’t know that our masters Philips in Holland were involved until a minute came from them asking ‘vos ist ein barge pole’? This surprised everyone as the Dutch generally have no sense of humour where money is concerned.
One year from the signing of the contract, bang on time, we airfreighted the 26 racks of equipment and a mass of other material for installation at Meherabad airport, a direct flight from Stansted to Teheran where it was to be fitted. The pilot spent 36 hours under armed guard first for not having a “Certificate of no objection” from Iranian Airlines and secondly for paying a parking fee for only a 12 hours stay. There were many problems with that first consignement [sic] which provided a good pointer to the difficulties to follow. It was 12 months before the equipment was released from Customs and then it was stored in the open air outside the Meherabad receiving station for 6 months. Soon after that first air shipment I returned to Iran and spent 6 weeks studying the first 12 airport installations, including Meherabad, and re-formulating detailed plans. Meherabad was the main International Airport and included the Flight Information Centre. One problem at the F.I.C. was how to fit a 24 ft control console manned by 6 people whilst maintaining a full service on the old console which occupied the same floor space. In addition the contract stated that 12 racks would be fitted in the old equipment room on the fourth floor and 14 in a new equipment room on the second floor. This really was quite impossible and I was keeping the problem to myself. When I was discussing with the Iranians the work involved in their own equiupment [sic] room,
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they became extremely worried because their wiring was an absolute shambles with hundreds of multipair cables actually threading their way in and out and through racks which we had to replace with no interuption [sic] in the service.
They finally startled me by laying down the law and insisting that we stay right out of their old equipment room, and they would knock down walls between six offices on the second floor to house all 26 racks. This area was very close to FIC and made our job not only possible, but easy. Also the change was their firm requirement and we charged them £17,500 extra for the priveledge [sic] .
On Kushi Nostrat mountain, Marconi were to fit a Radar scanner, which we were to link to Meherabad by a 7GHz link, but the only way to reach the site was by helicopter, unless one was a mountaineer. There were no civilian helicopters in Iran and it was only when I put the problem to A.D.C. that I found the Radar stn. was to be at Kushi Basm and not Kushi Nostrat, a totally different mountain. This had an access road and Meherabad was a line-of-sight path of 32 miles. At a critical distance was a salt pan and we were supposed to go round this desert on a dog leg using a microwave link repeater. There was no suitable location for the repeater because of the “change” in location of the Radar site. This resulted in another variation to contract for a frequency and space diversity single link, less equipment than in the original contract but we got away with charging £18,000 more. Some of the problems were pathetic, others amusing. When I checked the earthing and lightening arrestor system at Meherabad I found the one inch copper earth lead was terminated not with an earth mat in the ground but to a spike stuck in a concrete plantpot on the first floor verandah. That was and probably is still there and highly dangerous. Incredible but true.
At Bandar Abbas Airport I prepared a detailed installation plan which together with others was discussed later at a monthly progress meeting in London. It bore no resemblance to a plan prepared by Redifon two years previously and we realised that since Redifon’s visit a new airport had been built about 9 miles away. More variatons [sic] to contract. There were 260 of them finally. At Bandar Abbas, the port of which was the main base of the Iranian Navy, I was with the Provincial Governor, an Iranian Air Force General and the Airport Manager. All three agreed it was permissible for me to use my camera. Later when an army corporal confiscated the camera they all denied it and simultaneously lost their ability to speak fairly good english, resorting to french in discussion with me. I had already met the works manager in charge of the extensive building operations who spoke excellent english and was apparently all-powerful. He not only recovered my camera from the army but also gave me a fine selection of photographic prints together with detailed architect plans of all the buildings. I did not see the three senior chaps again but the works manager put a car and driver at my disposal. I think he must have been related to someone important, maybe the Shah-in-Shah, or maybe he was a member of the secret police, there is no knowing.
A consignment of Redifon transmitters was held up in Customs for over two years with a documentation problem, and even the fixer employed was quite ineffective. To clear through customs it was necessary to get 120 signatures and rubber stamp impressions on the release document and this had to be done in a single day. This was finally achieved after the Shah had decreed that the equipment must be released, but the chap on the gate seemed to resent this interferance [sic] and refused to release it. The document with the signatures was out
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of date the following day so the man’s boss supported him and the equipment remained a part of the scenery. A week or two later, another department came into the act and gave notice that if Redifon did not remove it within 7 days, it would be sold off by police auction. Redifon did not appreciate my suggestion that we should go to the auction. The problem had arisen because one small item of equipment was refered [sic] to as a “tone transmitter”, the word transmitter being anathma [sic] to Middle east types. It did not appear on the schedule [deleted] d [/deleted] of approved tranmitters [sic] and was regarded with grave suspicion.
It took four months to amend the contract to exclude the tone transmitter and substitute a tone oscillator, - the same thing -, but even then 36 copies of the invoice had to be changed and re-submitted.
The Consortium offices belonged to the G.E.C.O.S. agent who kindly trebbled [sic] the size of them at the Consortium’s expence [sic] . All the members’ staff in Iran moved in and made themselves comfortable. About three weeks later a gang of workmen with demolition equipment reduced the new buildings to rubble and said “sorry, no planning permission”. Two months later the lawyers proved that all the proper authority and permissions were completely in order. The gang returned and said “sorry, ok you build”.
Despite all the red tape in Iran it was generally possible to get results eventually, the main difficulty was often finding out just which palms had to be greased. Our man in Iran for three years was Mike Cherry and he was successful in getting an amateur radio licence, with the call-sign EP2MC. Mike fitted an SSB125 transceiver in the office in Teheran and I was in daily contact with him from both my house and the office in Cambridge. By using very carefull [sic] phraeseology [sic] I was kept right up to date with progress in the field.
I was talking with Mike from the office one evening on 14 MHz when Dr. Westhead the Chief Executive came in and asked who I was talking with. I replied “to Mike Cherry, our man in Teheran, Sir”. He grimaced and said “Ah well, ask a stupid question..” The public telephone system to Iran was diabolical most of the time. I used to book a call for 4.30 am the following day and take it from home, which saved a great deal of time in both places. Teheran time was 2 1/2 hours ahead of U.K. On most occasions the Post Office telephoned several times during the night to confirm the call or advise of delays, which was very tiresome.
Monthly progress meetings were held in London, and at one of them I was asked to quote for additional work at Esfahan during the 2500 year celebrations, which were to take place before the new equipment was fitted. They required to talk with aircraft and I suggested they should do so on a mobile set which would be quite adequate. Our team would already be on site with the mobiles so without any fuss I quoted £300 which was put forward. At a board meeting a week later this was confirmed and the Pye member of the Board, Pat Holden who was also our International Marketing Director promptly withdrew it as I had not gone through the proper channels. The next day he sent for me and instructed me to cancel my quotation, and with a great thumping of the table told me to increase it £3000. Then followed a lecture that “we are here to make money, add a nought”. I told him the job would take about an hour and £300 was more than adequate. £30,000 was utterly rediculous. [sic] I told him “I was doing no such thing, put it in writing through the head of my department and meanwhile you are clear to return to earth”. I then excused myself and left him
157
[page break]
to it. I returned to my own desk 20 minutes later to find a note asking me to go and see the boss, not surprisingly. I told him exactly what had happened and he laughed. I said I thought I had burned my boats with Pat Holden and David Smith my boss said “far from it, he admires you for standing up to him and asks you to forget it.” I took no further action in this and in the event there was no income at all, but the job took only 30 minutes for one engineer.
Another equally challenging job was the installation and commissio [deleted] m [/deleted] ning of a UHF system within the London Stock Exchange. This employed 520 adjascent [sic] channels. The Base Stations in the basement comprised a transmitter and receiver for each channel, all being combined into one “radiating feeder”. About 600 pocketphones on the Stock Exchange floor were used by dealers working into this system. An invitation to tender for this job had been received by Pye about two years previously and comments invited from all technical departments. It was unanimously agreed that the job was quite impossible and must not be attempted. Pye did not quote for it and the contract was awarded to S.T.C. Mobile division. Nearly two years later Pye or Philips aquired [sic] that organisation and half the installation had been fitted. About 60 channels were in use and very unsatisfactory. Dealers received messages intended for others and signals faded out at the crutial [sic] moment. Firms were receiving wrong messages and transfering [sic] and buying shares erroneously through these faults. The task of bringing the job to a conclusion was allocated to me and I chose my favourite team of Nick Fox, Aussie Peters and Jack Faulkener.
There was a local Service Dept. depot at the Stock Exchange of four engineers who were struggling to get the system working and we took over from them. On arrival there was a flap on, a dealer had acted on a false message and bought some tens of thousand shares for which he had no client and he was stuck with them. He said he was going to sue Pye for his loss. He dropped that idea next day when he sold them at a profit. The main problem was loss of signals into the pocketphones on the Stock Exchange floor but we were not allowed onto the floor during dealing times to make tests. Eventually we were given an ultimatum to either fix it or remove it and face an enormous claim for damages.
This was very serious indeed and I reported back to Cambridge. The Engineering Director, Frank Grimm showed me a copy of his comments of two years ago when he said the job was quite rediculous [sic] and impossible, and that was the end of it. No-one wanted to know, “It’s your problem Cliff, get on with it”. So it was back to the Stock Exchange, and I demanded permission to see for myself what was actually happening by being on the floor during dealing hours, otherwise there was nothing more we could do. The Chairman gave permission, quite unprecedented and we were then able to make a more scientific approach. We stayed on that evening and with Jack Faulkener in the basement at the transmitters we measured signal strengths which were astonishingly high and with no blind spots. Jack reduced the base station transmitter power at the input to the antenna system until even with the antenna completely isolated the signals were far more than adequate. This provide the mathematicians were all wrong and we were all barking up the wrong tree. We then carried out the most elementary test of all, whilst receiving properly on a pocketphone we transmitted on other pocketphones – on other channels – at a distance of ten feet. We had found the reason for the problem, simple R/F blocking which should have been checked in the Lab. at a very early stage. That evening we modified 6
[page break]
pocketfones [sic] , fitting a 2 pf. capacitor at the receiver input and completely bipassing [sic] the transmitter output stage. They worked perfectly, and with no blocking even at 2’ distance between portables. We had found the answer and the next day, friday, [sic] we recovered all the 160 pocketfones [sic] and over the weekend modified the lot. Everything worked as it should and the customers were delighted. We had received no co-operation from anyone in Cambridge but word soon reached Cambridge that all was well. We deliberately kept them in the dark until I issued a formal report. I had of course no authority to modify equipment but deliberately flouted this on the grounds that someone had to do something constructive or we would have been thrown out of the Stock Exchange. It did not improve my popularity with the people who could influence my career.
In 1979 after being responsible for some dozens of major projects three more Field Controllers were appointed, Dave Buller Mike Simpson and Clive Otley and I felt that a change was long overdue. Relationships with the Departmental Manager and his yes-man deputy Joe were deteriorating rapidly. I transfered [sic] back to Systems Planning Dept. and overnight became a specialist in Radio Frequency propagation. I was in a small team headed by Dave Warford, and including Lewis Wicker and John Ewbank, and a trainee. Our job was to plan Radio Links and area coverage systems, within the parameters laid down by D.T.I.
At the outset my knowledge of R/F propagation (or Electromagnetic Radiation) was limited to my practical experience of what had been achieved and what had failed to work. The theoretical aspect was highly mathematical but fortunatly [sic] the subject was well written up and the principles well established. Dave Warford and Lewis Wicker were a great help in getting me onto the right lines.
A typical job would be a request from a salesman asking whether a radio link on a particular frequency band would work between two specific sites and if so what aerial height would be required? The first step would be to study the Ordnance Survey maps of 1:50000 scale, and plotting all the contours on the direct line between the points. From this information a profile of the earth’s surface would be prepared including the earth’s curvature
[inserted] To be continued [/inserted]
159
[page break]
[underlined] Dresden 13 – 14 February 1945 [/underlined]
At the end of January 1945, the Royal Air Force and the USAF 8th Air Force were specifically requested by the Allied Joint Chiefs of Staff to carry out heavy raids on Dresden, Chemnitz and Leipzig. It was not a personal decision by Sir Arthur Harris. The campaign should have begun with an American daylight raid on Dresden on February 13th, but bad weather over Europe pre-vented [sic] any American operation. It thus fell to Bomber Command to carry out the first raid on the night of February 13th. 769 Lancasters and 9 Mosquitoes were dispatched in two separate attacks on Dresden and at the same time a further 368 R.A.F aircraft attacked the synthetic oil plant at Bohlen near Leipzig. A few hours after the RAF raids 311 bombers of the 8th US Air force attacked Dresden. The following day (15 February 1945) the USAF despatched 211 bombers to bomb Dresden and a further 406 bombers on the 2nd March.
As an economic centre, Dresden ranked sixth in importance in pre-war Germany. During the war several hundred industrial plants of various sizes worked full-time in Dresden for the German War machine, Among them were such industrial giants as the world famous Zeiss-Ikon AG (Optics and cameras). This plant alongside the plant in Jena was one of the principle centres of production of field glasses for the Armies, aiming sights for the Panzers and Artillery, periscopes for U-boats, bomb and gun sights f or the Luftwaffe. Dresden was also one of the key centres of the German postal and telegraphic system and a crucial East West transit point with its 7 bridges crossing the Elbe at its widest point.
In February 1945 the war was far from over. The Western Allies had not yet crossed the Rhine, Germany still controlled extensive territories, and Bomber Command lost more than 400 bombers after Dresden. The war was at its height, the Allies were preparing for the land battles which would follow their crossing the Rhine, the Russians were poised on the Oder. This destruction of Dresden meant a considerable reduction in the effectiveness of the German Armed forces.
The Germans followed Hitler even after the liberation of Auschwitz in January 1945 when its horrors were broadcast to the world. They continued to follow Hitler even after they watched the thousands of living skeletons from concentration camps being herded westward in early 1945.
A quote from former POW Col H E Cook (USAAF Rtd) "on 13/14 Feb 1945 we POWs were shunted into the Dresden marshalling yards where for nearly 12 hours German troops and equipment rolled in and out of Dresden. I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars …. transporting German logistics towards the East to meet the Russians.”
[signed] Jim[?] Broom [/signed]
[page break]
[curriculum vitae page 1]
[page break]
[curriculum vitae page 2]
[page break]
[autographed photograph of Lancaster bomber]
[page break]
[history of Jack Railton and Emma Sharpe]
[page break]
[history of George Henry Watson]
[page break]
[history of Herbert Kilham]
[page break]
[history of Herbert Kilham continued]
[page break]
[photograph of male]
[page break]
[history of George Henry Watson]
[page break]
[history of Jack Railton and family]
[page break]
[history of Jack Railton and family continued]
[page break]
[history of Cliff Stark’s early years]
[page break]
[letter from LMS railway to C.W. Watson page 1]
[page break]
[letter from LMS Railway to C.W.Watson page 2]
[page break]
[letter from LMS Railway to C.W. Watson]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Just Another Tailend Charlie
Description
An account of the resource
A memoir written by Cliff Watson divided into 20 chapters.
The Earliest Years.
Born in Barnoldswick, then in Yorkshire, now in Lancashire in 1922. His father ran a wireless business until 1926. He describes his years at schools and a move to Norwich. The family then moved to London where he started an apprenticeship as an accountant.
Joining Up.
Cliff left the accountants to work in his father's radio business. Initially he was rejected by the RAF because he wore spectacles. He reapplied and passed various written, oral and medical examinations. Initial training was at Torquay then Newquay. Once training was complete he sailed from Greenock to South Africa.
Southern Rhodesia.
After acclimatisation in South Africa, Cliff and his colleagues were put on a sleeper train to Bulawayo in Southern Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe. Training commenced on Tiger Moths but he was 'scrubbed' or rejected. He was reselected as an air gunner and completed a course in Moffat, also in South Rhodesia. Hospitality in Rhodesia and South Africa was described as generous and excellent.
Postscript.
Cliff describes a run-in with a training corporal who took a dislike to him. Despite faked evidence he proved his points and emerged with a clean record and passed his exams.
Operational Training.
In August 1942 he sailed back to the UK. He was sent to Bournemouth for assessment, then on to RAF Finningley for training then RAF Bircotes for operations. Next was a move to RAF Hixon and its satellite airfield at Seighford. He married Hilda on 1st March 1943 during a week's leave.
Second Time to Africa.
He was then sent to West Kirby, Liverpool to join a ship sailing to Algiers, for further training. Their destination became Blida where they started operations on Tunis and Monserrato airfield. They then moved to a desert strip to the east by 250 kms. From there they continued operations into Italy. Later they moved to Kairouan and continued operations into Italy, mainly Sardinia and Sicily. Each operation is described in great detail.
He has included a letter in Arabic with instructions to take the bearer to British soldiers for a reward. At the end of his tour they sailed back to Greenock.
Screened.
After some leave Cliff's next posting was at Operational Training Unit Desborough where he helped train new gunners. Due to an argument with an officer he was sent to RAF Norton for correctional training. On his return his case was reviewed and the severe reprimand was removed from his record.
Scampton.
Scampton was Cliff's next operational base then Winthorpe for its Heavy Conversion Unit on Stirlings, followed by Syerston on Lancasters then Bardney.
227 Squadron.
Cliff joined 227 squadron at Bardney. Again he covers in detail each operation. His flight was later transferred to Balderton. During this period he was awarded the DFC.
Final Leg.
His squadron was transferred to Gravely at the end of the war. He did a photography course and was transferred to Handforth. There was little work, some unpleasantness and eventually a period of extended leave, a spell at Poynton looking after prisoners then demob.
Back to Civvy Street.
Cliff returned to Whitehaven to revitalise a radio company. He gives great detail about the improvements made. Later he set up a similar enterprise at Maryport. Wired radio services were set to become less popular and financially worthwhile so seeing the writing on the wall he decided to emigrate.
Kenya.
Cliff and family flew to Nairobi, then bus to Kitale where his father was.
Hoteli King George.
Dissatisfied with life on his father's farm, Cliff took a job as a prison officer. He and his family moved to Nairobi. He relates several stories about prisoners and their better qualities but in the end he gets restless and leaves.
Civil Aviation.
Cliff joined the East African Directorate of Civil Aviation in April 1951 as a radio officer. He and his family were relocated to Mbeya, 900 miles from Nairobi. His skills as a radio engineer were well used in this remote location. After 2.5 years the family returned to UK on leave. On his return he was posted to Mwanza, also in Tanganyika. He describes in great detail a royal visit. They left on leave in June 1957 and collected a VW Beetle for transport to Kenya. Their next move was to Entebbe. This was not a happy posting and led to a transfer to Kisumu in Kenya. After three years they transferred to Nairobi to spend more time with their children, who were at boarding school there.
D.C.A. Headquarters.
His role here was Telecomms superintendent. He describes in detail the operations of his section. This was an unsettled period in Kenya with many Europeans returning home.
Dec' 61 on Leave.
Leave was spent at their house in Wales then in May 1962 Cliff returned alone to Nairobi. His family did return later. By this time his father had abandoned his farm and was building radios.
On Leave June 1964.
He bought another house in Wales and spent his leave restoring it. His wife's mother moved in. In November 1964 Cliff returned alone to Nairobi. he left within a year due to the worsening situation.
Job Hunting.
Several electronics firms were approached offering Cliff's services. He attended an interview with Pye who quickly offered him employment.
At Pye Telecommunications.
He found his colleagues unhelpful. A great deal of time was spent on a Turkish quotation that had been in progress for 10 years. A quotation to the Iranian Directorate of Civil Aviation contained complications leading to Cliff revising the quotation. Later there was a complicated installation job at the London Stock Exchange. Eventually Pye pulled out from the bid but a rival company won it, only to be taken over by Pye. At first the system was troubled but after a simple modification it worked perfectly.
Dresden 13-14 February 1945.
A one page description of the bombing of Dresden.
Curriculum Vitae.
Cliff Watson's CV, dated 1976.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cliff Watson DFC
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1989-06
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
192 typewritten sheets and photographs
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SWatsonC188489v1
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Huntingdon
England--Yorkshire
England--Norwich
England--London
England--Torquay
England--Newquay
England--Birkenhead
Scotland--Greenock
Sierra Leone--Freetown
South Africa--Durban
Zimbabwe--Bulawayo
South Africa--Mahikeng
Zimbabwe--Harare
Singapore
South Africa--Cape Town
England--Bournemouth
France--Paris
Algeria--Algiers
Algeria--Blida
Tunisia--Tunis
Italy--Sardinia
Italy--Cagliari
Tunisia--Bizerte
Italy--Monserrato
Italy--Decimomannu
Italy--Trapani
Italy--Palermo
Italy--Naples
Italy--Rome
Italy--Lido di Roma
Italy--Tiber River
Italy--Alghero
Italy--Castelvetrano
Italy--Pantelleria Island
Tunisia--Sūsah
Italy--Syracuse
Italy--Messina
Italy--Salerno
Italy--Bari
Italy--Comiso
Italy--Crotone
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Italy--Paola
Italy--Battipaglia
England--Desborough
Norway--Bergen
Netherlands--Walcheren
Germany--Hamburg
Norway--Oslo
Belgium--Houffalize
Germany--Karlsruhe
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Dortmund
Germany--Berchtesgaden
England--Whitehaven
Kenya
England--Yeovil
Kenya--Nairobi
Kenya--Kitale
Tanzania--Mbeya
Tanzania--Mwanza
Uganda--Entebbe
Kenya--Kisumu
England--Cambridge
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Braunschweig
Germany--Düsseldorf
Zimbabwe--Gweru
Zimbabwe
South Africa
Sierra Leone
France
Algeria
Tunisia
Italy
Netherlands
Germany
Norway
Poland
Belgium
Tanzania
Uganda
Iran
North Africa
Germany--Nuremberg
Iran--Tehran
Poland--Police (Województwo Zachodniopomorskie)
Netherlands--Vlissingen
Germany--Homburg (Saarland)
Tunisia--Munastīr
Tunisia--Qayrawān
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Cornwall (County)
England--Cumberland
England--Devon
England--Hampshire
England--Huntingdonshire
England--Norfolk
England--Northamptonshire
England--Somerset
England--Lancashire
Italy--Capri Island
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Bradbury
109 Squadron
142 Squadron
150 Squadron
1661 HCU
227 Squadron
25 OTU
30 OTU
5 Group
617 Squadron
84 OTU
9 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Albemarle
Anson
anti-aircraft fire
B-17
B-24
Beaufighter
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
C-47
Defiant
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
ditching
FIDO
flight engineer
Flying Training School
Gee
ground personnel
Halifax
Harvard
Heavy Conversion Unit
Hudson
Hurricane
Initial Training Wing
Ju 87
Ju 88
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
mess
military discipline
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
prisoner of war
RAF Balderton
RAF Bardney
RAF Bawtry
RAF Catfoss
RAF Desborough
RAF Eastleigh
RAF Farnborough
RAF Finningley
RAF Graveley
RAF Hemswell
RAF Hixon
RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor
RAF Milltown
RAF Norton
RAF Scampton
RAF Seighford
RAF Strubby
RAF Syerston
RAF Waddington
RAF Wick
RAF Winthorpe
RAF Wyton
searchlight
Spitfire
sport
Stirling
Sunderland
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/2407/42536/BMuirCMuirRWLv1 copy.2.pdf
1d7558560f711b66994a98ecf249f6a8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Muir, Reginald William Lingfield
Muir, R W L
Description
An account of the resource
41 items. The collection concerns Sergeant Reginald William Lingfield Muir (1923 - 1943, 1388470 Royal Air Force) and contains his decorations, log book, correspondence, documents, and photographs. He flew a single operation as a bomb aimer with 106 Squadron and was killed with the rest of his crew 9 July 1943.<br /><br />The collection was loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Clyde Muir and catalogued by Lynn Corrigan. <br /><br />Additional information on Reginald William Lingfield Muir is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/116853/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-10-08
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Muir, RWL
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
From Hackney lad to air bomber
Description
An account of the resource
Written by his nephew, a narrative of Reg's early life, his participation in student exchanges in Germany, joining the Royal Air force, training, life on the station and the crash in which he died, together with air gunners Sergeant Leslie Johnson and Sergeant Edward Hannell, wireless operator Sergeant Ronald Barrett, navigator Sergeant Donald McLeod, flight engineer Sergeant Samuel Leigh and pilot Sergeant Kenneth 'Wally' McLean and details of their burials. It includes photographs, operation schedules and extracts from his log book.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Clyde Muir
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-10
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-07-08
1943-07-09
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
Belgium--Heverlee
Belgium--Liège
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Essen
Great Britain
England--London
England--Nottinghamshire
Scotland--Moray
South Africa
South Africa--East London
Belgium--Herve
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Royal Canadian Air Force
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Personal research
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
24 printed sheets
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending text-based transcription
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BMuirCMuirRWLv1
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
106 Squadron
19 OTU
76 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
Battle
bomb aimer
bombing
crash
entertainment
final resting place
flight engineer
Halifax
killed in action
Lancaster
Manchester
Me 110
memorial
military living conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Oboe
observer
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
RAF Kinloss
RAF Syerston
recruitment
Red Cross
shot down
training
Whitley
wireless operator